From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Dec 3 22:07:36 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 21:07:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berman Message-ID: <18A20993-31A3-417D-A641-B3C87841E177@ripon.edu> This is a test, since I haven't seen any posts in many days. But here's a poem for your trouble. . . . David Berman's book has been engaging me much lately. The Double Bell of Heat Midway down Walnut Street a yellow sign says Slow Deaf Child, with the silhouette of a running boy painted over the bent and dented surface. Just the post, rusted to black, gives the story away. The child must have grown up and left the neighborhood a long time ago. And now there's this sign. You can imagine his parents going to the city clerk's office. The paperwork is strange and complex, languishing in office out?bins, drifting through council meetings. One spring morning the boy sees two city workers get out of a truck and set the bright sign in the patch of grass between the sidewalk and street. He watches it out the window, knowing what it is, watching it gather the world around it like a mountain in the Bible. Cars heed the sign, many drivers scanning to the left and right hoping to catch sight of the deaf boy playing. Some drivers imagine hitting him and slow down even more. They play out the scene, what they would say, how their lives would change. And the years pass, even for the little deaf boy. He gets married, has kids. Maybe moves to a village in New England with stone walls and candle makers. You can imagine him returning to the old neighborhood. Driving down on a fall afternoon into the quiet center of things, gently braking before this old streetsign. He would do that, he would come back. As if it had been written twice. --David Berman. Actual Air. Open City Books, 1999. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Dec 4 01:45:16 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 07:45:16 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berman References: <18A20993-31A3-417D-A641-B3C87841E177@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <003801c7176f$c27625c0$e9a83452@ANNY> I think the server was down because my mail did not arrive. I will send it later again. On the buffalo there is a very sad mail: kari edwards passed away. I am so sorry. I never met her but she was a very good friend up here. I wish her peace. Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry & Views Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 4:07 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Berman This is a test, since I haven't seen any posts in many days. But here's a poem for your trouble. . . . David Berman's book has been engaging me much lately. The Double Bell of Heat Midway down Walnut Street a yellow sign says Slow Deaf Child, with the silhouette of a running boy painted over the bent and dented surface. Just the post, rusted to black, gives the story away. The child must have grown up and left the neighborhood a long time ago. And now there's this sign. You can imagine his parents going to the city clerk's office. The paperwork is strange and complex, languishing in office out?bins, drifting through council meetings. One spring morning the boy sees two city workers get out of a truck and set the bright sign in the patch of grass between the sidewalk and street. He watches it out the window, knowing what it is, watching it gather the world around it like a mountain in the Bible. Cars heed the sign, many drivers scanning to the left and right hoping to catch sight of the deaf boy playing. Some drivers imagine hitting him and slow down even more. They play out the scene, what they would say, how their lives would change. And the years pass, even for the little deaf boy. He gets married, has kids. Maybe moves to a village in New England with stone walls and candle makers. You can imagine him returning to the old neighborhood. Driving down on a fall afternoon into the quiet center of things, gently braking before this old streetsign. He would do that, he would come back. As if it had been written twice. --David Berman. Actual Air. Open City Books, 1999. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Dec 4 07:34:15 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 13:34:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] kari edwards Message-ID: <002a01c717a0$82f048a0$5cd73152@ANNY> I am sorry for the tone this morning- it just hit me that someone who is so young and forceful could leave us, this is a better mail: This from Kevin Killian (via the Buffalo List): Yes, it's true about kari's death and here in the Bay Area we are all still in shock as I imagine her friends all over the country and elsewhere are as well. Fran Blau asked me to spread the word about, well, something you can do in kari's memory if you care to, and that's to make a donation to Cinema Paradiso, the international cinema in Auroville, the visionary community in southern India where kari and Fran had spent a happy year + together. Checks should be made out to: Auroville Maintenance Fund and sent to: Financial Services Town Hall Annex Auroville 605101 Tamil Nadu India Please note that it's to support "Cinema Paradiso" and that your gift is in memory of kari edwards. Tom Beckett on Soluble Census. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsillima at yahoo.com Mon Dec 4 08:17:51 2006 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 05:17:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog (of kari edwards) Message-ID: <741701.7473.qm@web31801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS Of kari edwards (against pronouns) Representing San Francisco to Italian readers Ken & Ann Mikolowski?s Alternative Press ends a run of annuals after more than 30 years Country Girl by Hannah Weiner The uses of multiplicity and layering (Frank Film, by Frank and Caroline Mouris) and the Ubuweb Film Archive Notes on painting and more The Da Vinci Code as film being faithful to the book breaking faith with the audience Some links regarding Alice?s Restaurant Joanna Newsom etc The middle road of Jim Bertolino A new poem by Jack Spicer in a marvelous anthology about the Bancroft Library (plus an aside on the poetry of Kevin Killian) http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 4 09:30:42 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 09:30:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NewPoetry down for a few days Message-ID: <4a9.39e17519.32a58b12@aol.com> In a message dated 12/3/2006 10:05:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: This is a test, since I haven't seen any posts in many days. But here's a poem for your trouble. . . There was some kind of technical problem with the server/listserv software...but Len Hatfield fixed for us. Jim Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 4 09:34:13 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 09:34:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Vallejo Complete Message-ID: In a message dated 12/3/2006 10:28:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames writes: The Complete Poetry: A Bilingual Edition C?sar Vallejo "Decades in the making, this faithful and forceful complete text from poet and essayist Eshleman deserves as much notice as any poetic translation can get."?Publishers Weekly This first translation of the complete poetry of Peruvian C?sar Vallejo (1892-1938) makes available to English speakers one of the greatest achievements of twentieth-century world poetry. Handsomely presented in . . . _http://go.ucpress.edu/10496.html_ (http://www.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0zNjIwNTQmcD0xJnU9MTA2MTUzMDI3JmxpPTEwNTEzNjI/index.html) Subjects: Literature; Latin American Studies; American Literature; Poetry; Literary Theory & Criticism Market: General Interest 978-0-520-24552-5, cloth $49.95 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 4 09:35:12 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 09:35:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Performing the (e.g. Visual) Poem Message-ID: "Performing the (e.g. Visual) Poem" at The Argotist Online: _http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Lightman%20essay.htm_ (http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Lightman%20essay.htm) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Mon Dec 4 09:40:16 2006 From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 09:40:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vallejo Complete In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C8E5C93FF4ABB5-200-D6B2@mblk-r31.sysops.aol.com> It's $32.97 at Amazon. -----Original Message----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 6:34 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Vallejo Complete In a message dated 12/3/2006 10:28:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames writes: The Complete Poetry: A Bilingual Edition C?sar Vallejo "Decades in the making, this faithful and forceful complete text from poet and essayist Eshleman deserves as much notice as any poetic translation can get."?Publishers Weekly This first translation of the complete poetry of Peruvian C?sar Vallejo (1892-1938) makes available to English speakers one of the greatest achievements of twentieth-century world poetry. Handsomely presented in . . . http://go.ucpress.edu/10496.html Subjects: Literature; Latin American Studies; American Literature; Poetry; Literary Theory & Criticism Market: General Interest 978-0-520-24552-5, cloth $49.95 _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Dec 4 09:48:00 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 08:48:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Age of the Great Symphonies Message-ID: The Age of the Great Symphonies The age of the great symphonies is over now. The symphonies rose toward heaven with real magnificence-- sunlit clouds with thunder over the brilliant centuries. Cumulus under blue skies. Coriolanus. Now they are coming back down again in the form of rain, a banded, stone?colored rain on all the wavelengths and programs covering earth like a wet overcoat, a sack of noise. Now they are coming back down from the sky, they bounce off the skyscrapers like electric hail and seep down into farmers' living rooms and roll over the suburbs and brick?oceans as immortal sound. A rain of sound, "You millions of this earth, embrace" so as to deaden screams every day, every day on this earth which is thirsty and takes them back into itself again. --Rolf Jacobsen. Trans. Robert Bly. *The Roads Have Come to An End Now: Selected & Last Poems of Rolf Jacobsen*. Copper Canyon Press, 2001.. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 4 09:52:21 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 09:52:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Vallejo Complete Message-ID: Vallejo the socialist would be aghast at the $50 price for this new edition, though like most books from U. of California, it's probably a gorgeously produced collection... There is a Vallejo poem that goes something like, "Would you deny me a stone to sit on?" Or a book, for that matter? In interest of the society of sharing, I'll give away an extra copy I have of "Cesar Vallejo's The Complete and Posthumous Poetry_ translated by Clayton Eshelman and Jose Rubio Barcia, the 1980 paperback edition from U. of California Press. b/c me with your address if you want the book. We offer free shipping to boot. Finnegan In a message dated 12/4/2006 9:41:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, millb at aol.com writes: It's $32.97 at Amazon. -----Original Message----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 6:34 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Vallejo Complete In a message dated 12/3/2006 10:28:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames writes: The Complete Poetry: A Bilingual Edition C?sar Vallejo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 4 10:07:23 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:07:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Don't Ever Get Famous: Essays on New York Writing After the New York School Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:48:53 -0500 From: Daniel Kane Subject: Book Launch NYC: "Don't Ever Get Famous: Essays on New York Writing After the New York School" Just in time for the Holidays. Book Launch for Don't Ever Get Famous: Essays on New York Writing After the New York School (Dalkey Archives, 2006) When: Saturday, December 16, 2006, 6 pm sharp. Where: The Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York, NY 10012. 212.614.0505. Foot of First Street, between Houston & Bleecker, across the street from what used to be CBGBs. Take F train to Second Ave, or 6 train to Bleecker. Full bar and micro poetry readings featuring Bob Perelman, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Lytle Shaw, Marcella Durand, Brenda Coultas, Gary Lenhart, Lewis Warsh, and more. Books available for sale at discount. Table of contents for Don't Ever Get Famous: Andrew Epstein: "Against the Speech of Friends": Amiri Baraka Sings the "White Friend Blues" Jed Rasula: Deep Image Jon Panish: "As Radical As Society Demands the Truth to Be": Umbra's Racial Politics and Poetics Harry Thorne: "The New York School is a Joke": The Disruptive Poetics of C: A Journal of Poetry Daniel Kane: Angel Hair Magazine, The Second Generation New York School, And The Poetics of Sociability Linda Russo: Poetics of Adjacency: 0-9 and the Conceptual Writing of Bernadette Mayer & Hannah Weiner Lytle Shaw: Faulting Description: Clark Coolidge, Bernadette Mayer and the Site of Scientific Authority Rachel Blau DuPlessis: Anne Waldman: Standing Corporeally in One's Time Bob Perelman: "fucking / me across the decades like we / poets like": Embodied Poetic Transmission Nick Selby: 'A generous time': Lee Harwood in New York Patrick Masterson and Paul Stephens: Spring in This World of Mad Angels: The Poetry of Joseph Ceravolo Gary Lenhart:"Everyone you've ever been with for a moment": The poetry of Lewis Warsh Lorenzo Thomas: The Pleasures of Elusiveness: What Is In and Around Ron Padgett's Poetry Ange Mlinko: Charles North's Adventures in Poetry Andrea Brady: The Other Poet: Wieners, O'Hara, Olson .apologies if this ends up cross-posting. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 4 10:58:24 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:58:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Vallejo Complete Message-ID: In a message dated 12/4/2006 9:53:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: I'll give away an extra copy I have of "Cesar Vallejo's The Complete and Posthumous Poetry_ translated by Clayton Eshelman and Jose Rubio Barcia, the 1980 paperback edition from U. of California Press. b/c me with your address if you want the book. We offer free shipping to boot. The offer has been accepted...next time I find a dupe of a good book hiding in my bookcase, I'll let people know. Jim F -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From screwzbaran at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 13:57:10 2006 From: screwzbaran at gmail.com (Suzanne Baran) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:57:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berman In-Reply-To: <18A20993-31A3-417D-A641-B3C87841E177@ripon.edu> References: <18A20993-31A3-417D-A641-B3C87841E177@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0612041057h208fc886i325da50451fe29a@mail.gmail.com> THANK YOU FOR POSTING A BERMAN POEM! He is one of the contemporary great singer/songwriters/poets of our time. On 12/3/06, David Graham wrote: > > This is a test, since I haven't seen any posts in many days. But here's a > poem for your trouble. . . . David Berman's book has been engaging me much > lately. > > * > * > > *The Double Bell of Heat* > > > Midway down Walnut Street > a yellow sign says Slow Deaf Child, > with the silhouette of a running boy > > > painted over the bent and dented surface. > > Just the post, rusted to black, > > gives the story away. > > > > The child must have grown up > > and left the neighborhood a long time ago. > > > > And now there's this sign. > > > > You can imagine his parents going > > to the city clerk's office. > > > > The paperwork is strange and complex, > > languishing in office out?bins, > > drifting through council meetings. > > > > One spring morning the boy sees two city workers > > get out of a truck and set the bright sign > > in the patch of grass between the sidewalk and street. > > > > He watches it out the window, knowing what it is, > > watching it gather the world around it > > like a mountain in the Bible. > > > > Cars heed the sign, many drivers scanning to the left > > and right hoping to catch sight of the deaf boy playing. > > > > Some drivers imagine hitting him and slow down even more. > > They play out the scene, what they would say, > > how their lives would change. > > > > And the years pass, even for the little deaf boy. > > > > He gets married, has kids. > > Maybe moves to a village in New England > > with stone walls and candle makers. > > > > You can imagine him returning to the old neighborhood. > > Driving down on a fall afternoon into the quiet center of things, > > gently braking before this old streetsign. > > > > He would do that, he would come back. > > As if it had been written twice. > > > > --David Berman. *Actual Air.** *Open City Books, 1999. > > > > ========================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > *http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html* > > Poetry Library: > > *http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html* > > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "It is the gravity of what we do not express that smothers the beauty our hearts disguise, our first great breaths, our unknown perfections, the summons of our most brazen blood, and the tolling of our truest tears." -- J. Ryan Stradal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 15:10:24 2006 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:10:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tony Hoagland Message-ID: <731bb17a0612041210w22bcddb3g66f2fe8b9f388b96@mail.gmail.com> "Modern consciousness may indeed be splintered, but it is one function of poetry to fasten it back together?which does not mean to deny or repress its complexity. When poetry can name the parts and position them, when it draws us out of the speedy, buzzing fog that is selfhood and modern life, our sense of being alive is heightened and intensified. How strange it is that when I read a particular poem, which brings the world into focus for me, that I can feel my own life come into focus. I was already part of the world, I know?but the unifying, clarifying impact of a poem (whatever form that takes) moves me to a deeper, and more succinct sense of being-in-the-world. Deeper and better than before, when I was only lost in it." Tony Hoagland, from *The AWP Chronicle*, Volume 39, Number 1 Jeff Newberry -- "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." ?William Faulkner, *Light in August* http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Mon Dec 4 18:24:10 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 18:24:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tony Hoagland Message-ID: <3ca.135d72b2.32a6081a@aol.com> Loved this! A wonderful broad description of poetry that settles much inwardly. Thanks for sharing this. ~Raven _Random Thoughts Connected_ (http://journals.aol.com/rebuketheworld/RandomThoughtsConnected/) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 5 06:46:07 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 06:46:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tony Hoagland References: <731bb17a0612041210w22bcddb3g66f2fe8b9f388b96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002101c71862$f4e44250$25b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> "Modern consciousness may indeed be splintered, but it is one function of poetry to fasten it back together?which does not mean to deny or repress its complexity. When poetry can name the parts and position them, when it draws us out of the speedy, buzzing fog that is selfhood and modern life, our sense of being alive is heightened and intensified. How strange it is that when I read a particular poem, which brings the world into focus for me, that I can feel my own life come into focus. I was already part of the world, I know?but the unifying, clarifying impact of a poem (whatever form that takes) moves me to a deeper, and more succinct sense of being-in-the-world. Deeper and better than before, when I was only lost in it." Tony Hoagland, from The AWP Chronicle, Volume 39, Number 1 Jeff Newberry Well, I can't start the day without being crabby but the above seems to me mostly bs, although with some truth--and just the kind of thing one would expect a mainstream American poet to say. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hawkbrwn at msn.com Tue Dec 5 08:42:50 2006 From: hawkbrwn at msn.com (Elaine Brown) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:42:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tony Hoagland In-Reply-To: <002101c71862$f4e44250$25b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Laugh. Well, I don?t want to seem cranky myself. But, except, well, why not? Why not be cranky. Anyway, I guess what I?m saying here is: I agree with Bob. Slap me into a corner too, if you must. Why do we assume consciousness prior to ?the modern? age to have been unified or at least more unified than what ever modern consciousness is supposed to be. This seems to be an absurd, though common, assumption. It?s also often based in hugely racist and classist assumptions. We?re claiming an entire culture to have been unified prior to the modern age. But who is it we?re really looking at when we make such claims? Surely not the non-white or the non-wealthy (or wealthy enough). How do we even ever imagine a so called unified cultural consciousness. I also don?t see how it can be true that poetry puts consciousness back together. Especially at a cultural level. I think that a poem can focus us for a moment, and that moment can be clear and directed at a particular experience, insight, etc. But that that one moment hardly represents a unification of a culture or even of an individual. It?s a self-centered assumption to imagine that my one moment of clarity as I read a poem somehow links to a de-fracturing of consciousness in general. It?s a self-centered, imaginary assumption to suppose that it leads to any sort of de-fracturing of my own consciousness too. Eventually we move on from the poem. We go back to needing to find food while we?re still trying to finish the previous task we were involved in when we realized either that we were hungry, or that it was simply time to eat. Even when focused on the moment of experience we receive or arrive at from the poem we have multiple thoughts and actions. Why must we imagine consciousness united at all? Are we assuming homogeny when we do so? What on earth would the benefit of that be? If we?re simply assuming that consciousness is multiple but someone driven by a singular force or drive, again, what is the use of that? It seems that we each of us have multiple needs and desires at any particular time. That this is part of the nature of being alive?to have an ebb and flux of physiological states that are experienced as ailments, emotions, thoughts, intentions, projects, etc. I?m rambling. Blah blah blah blah BLAH. On 12/5/06 6:46 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: > "Modern consciousness may indeed be splintered, but it is one function of > poetry to fasten it back together?which does not mean to deny or repress its > complexity. When poetry can name the parts and position them, when it draws > us out of the speedy, buzzing fog that is selfhood and modern life, our sense > of being alive is heightened and intensified. How strange it is that when I > read a particular poem, which brings the world into focus for me, that I can > feel my own life come into focus. I was already part of the world, I know?but > the unifying, clarifying impact of a poem (whatever form that takes) moves me > to a deeper, and more succinct sense of being-in-the-world. Deeper and better > than before, when I was only lost in it." >> >> >> >> Tony Hoagland, from The AWP Chronicle, Volume 39, Number 1 >> >> >> >> >> Jeff Newberry >> >> >> >> Well, I can't start the day without being crabby but the above seems to me >> mostly bs, although with some truth--and just the kind of thing one would >> expect a mainstream American poet to say. >> >> >> >> --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Dec 5 11:57:53 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:57:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tony Hoagland In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0612041210w22bcddb3g66f2fe8b9f388b96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't have the book handy, but was recently reading Tony Hoagland's new collection of essays, *Real Sofistikashun*, and this sentiment rings a bell. Jeff, was this passage perhaps from an essay called something like "Thingitude & Causality"? I think I half agree with Hoagland. I'm not sure about the historical generalization--am skeptical about whether "modern consciousness," whatever that means, is any more splintered in 2006 than consciousness was in 1640 or 1066 or 865. But I do find that one function of poetry, for me, is to fasten things together. Frost's "momentary stay against confusion" springs to mind, of course. Hoagland in his "Thingitude" essay writes about how he no longer believes that a fractured consciousness or the vortex of a confusing culture requires poetry to be similarly fractured, elliptical, etc. So he's speaking up for realism and narrative values, essentially. And asserting that such things, though frequently considered outmoded or naive in some quarters, are fully adequate to address contemporary conditions. I've got no complaint with that. Hoagland's essay collection is well worth reading, I think. --------------------------------------------------- On 12/4/06 2:10 PM, "Jeff Newberry" wrote: > "Modern consciousness may indeed be splintered, but it is one function of > poetry to fasten it back together?which does not mean to deny or repress its > complexity. When poetry can name the parts and position them, when it draws > us out of the speedy, buzzing fog that is selfhood and modern life, our sense > of being alive is heightened and intensified. How strange it is that when I > read a particular poem, which brings the world into focus for me, that I can > feel my own life come into focus. I was already part of the world, I know?but > the unifying, clarifying impact of a poem (whatever form that takes) moves me > to a deeper, and more succinct sense of being-in-the-world. Deeper and better > than before, when I was only lost in it." > > Tony Hoagland, from The AWP Chronicle, Volume 39, Number 1 > > > Jeff Newberry ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/academics/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 13:13:05 2006 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 13:13:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tony Hoagland In-Reply-To: <002101c71862$f4e44250$25b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <731bb17a0612041210w22bcddb3g66f2fe8b9f388b96@mail.gmail.com> <002101c71862$f4e44250$25b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <731bb17a0612051013n11861135sf71e2357f3c15f2@mail.gmail.com> Well, I can't imagine letting your crankiness bother me. I thought the essay it was drawn from was well-written and interesting. I also found (forgive me) inspiring. No--I'm not interested in an argument. Best to you, Bob. Jeff Newberry On 12/5/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > > "Modern consciousness may indeed be splintered, but it is one function of > poetry to fasten it back together?which does not mean to deny or repress its > complexity. When poetry can name the parts and position them, when it > draws us out of the speedy, buzzing fog that is selfhood and modern life, > our sense of being alive is heightened and intensified. How strange it > is that when I read a particular poem, which brings the world into focus for > me, that I can feel my own life come into focus. I was already part of > the world, I know?but the unifying, clarifying impact of a poem (whatever > form that takes) moves me to a deeper, and more succinct sense of > being-in-the-world. Deeper and better than before, when I was only lost > in it." > > > Tony Hoagland, from *The AWP Chronicle*, Volume 39, Number 1 > > > Jeff Newberry > > Well, I can't start the day without being crabby but the above seems to me > mostly bs, although with some truth--and just the kind of thing one would > expect a mainstream American poet to say. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." ?William Faulkner, Light in August http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 13:22:38 2006 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 13:22:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tony Hoagland In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0612051013n11861135sf71e2357f3c15f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a0612041210w22bcddb3g66f2fe8b9f388b96@mail.gmail.com> <002101c71862$f4e44250$25b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a0612051013n11861135sf71e2357f3c15f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a0612051022w34b53dadp36d9dd60e0f666a0@mail.gmail.com> Whoops. I meant (forgive me): I also found the essay (forgive me) inspiring. Jeff Newberry On 12/5/06, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > Well, I can't imagine letting your crankiness bother me. > > I thought the essay it was drawn from was well-written and interesting. I > also found (forgive me) inspiring. > > No--I'm not interested in an argument. > > Best to you, Bob. > > Jeff Newberry > > > On 12/5/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > "Modern consciousness may indeed be splintered, but it is one function > > of poetry to fasten it back together?which does not mean to deny or repress > > its complexity. When poetry can name the parts and position them, when > > it draws us out of the speedy, buzzing fog that is selfhood and modern life, > > our sense of being alive is heightened and intensified. How strange it > > is that when I read a particular poem, which brings the world into focus for > > me, that I can feel my own life come into focus. I was already part of > > the world, I know?but the unifying, clarifying impact of a poem (whatever > > form that takes) moves me to a deeper, and more succinct sense of > > being-in-the-world. Deeper and better than before, when I was only > > lost in it." > > > > > > Tony Hoagland, from *The AWP Chronicle*, Volume 39, Number 1 > > > > > > Jeff Newberry > > > > Well, I can't start the day without being crabby but the above seems to > > me mostly bs, although with some truth--and just the kind of thing one would > > expect a mainstream American poet to say. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > -- > "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than > recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." > ?William Faulkner, Light in August > > > http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com -- "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." ?William Faulkner, Light in August http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Dec 5 14:38:54 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:38:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Position open at CLMP in New York City] Message-ID: <410.9bd629.32a724ce@aol.com> We have a staff position open at CLMP -- please post this on the listserve. We're starting interviews this week, and want to have someone here by the beginning of the year -- so anyone interested should apply ASAP. It's an excellent opportunity in a friendly, dynamic office environment. And, the last two staffers hired for this position have moved up to higher positions in the organization. And it would be wonderful to hire a fellow UMass MFA alum! Yrs. Rob Robert N. Casper Membership Director Council of Literary Magazines and Presses 154 Christopher Street, Suite 3C New York, NY 10014 212-741-9110 x. 15 _rcasper at clmp.org_ (mailto:rcasper at clmp.org) _http://www.clmp.org_ (http://www.clmp.org/) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Tue Dec 5 17:02:18 2006 From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 17:02:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Position open at CLMP in New York City] In-Reply-To: <410.9bd629.32a724ce@aol.com> References: <410.9bd629.32a724ce@aol.com> Message-ID: <8C8E6D02A89ABC5-494-C1C@mblk-r29.sysops.aol.com> Could someone please post the job announcement? -----Original Message----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:38 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Position open at CLMP in New York City] We have a staff position open at CLMP -- please post this on the listserve. We're starting interviews this week, and want to have someone here by the beginning of the year -- so anyone interested should apply ASAP. It's an excellent opportunity in a friendly, dynamic office environment. And, the last two staffers hired for this position have moved up to higher positions in the organization. And it would be wonderful to hire a fellow UMass MFA alum! Yrs. Rob Robert N. Casper Membership Director Council of Literary Magazines and Presses 154 Christopher Street, Suite 3C New York, NY 10014 212-741-9110 x. 15 rcasper at clmp.org http://www.clmp.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Dec 6 05:48:52 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:48:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pan Tadeusz by Adam Mickiewicz Message-ID: <001e01c71924$1f000300$d1ae3452@ANNY> >From the Buffalo: HarrowGate Press announces the publication of a new verse translation of the 19th century. Polish Romantic epic, PAN TADEUSZ by Adam Mickiewicz. Translated by Leonard Kress. Free PDF download (278 pages): http://www.harrowgatepress.com/pan.pdf www.harrowgatepress.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From letitia.trent at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 11:09:20 2006 From: letitia.trent at gmail.com (L Trent) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:09:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Third Issue of 21 Stars Review Message-ID: The third issue of 21 Stars Review ( http://sundress.net/21stars) is up! Featuring work by Shane Allison, John Steven Cummins, Martha Deed, Doug Draime, Ricky Garni, Carrie Grinstead, Frank Haberle, Donald Illich, Halvard Johnson, Nathan Klose, Andrew Lundwall and Sheila Murphy, AE Reiff, and Lori Scoby Some samples: from *Montana Line* by Lori Scoby My grandfather once told me to search for what you want until you find it. He also told me that I should eat fried eggs every day, that red is the color of hell and should never be worn, and that cars weren't worth the trouble. from *The Day of the Light-Bearers* by Halvard Johnson Despite persistent rumors to the contrary, we are fit and healthy, those of us gathering at the monument to our unknown leader, he whose face was familiar to all of us who did not know it, who remembered little if anything about him. Seemingly, our displays of loyalty have displeased him, though we do not know why they should. Our spirits are dampened by his contempt for our abiding love for him... Please feel free to e-mail comments, suggestions, and raves to letitia.trent at gmail.com-- I'll pass your comments along to the contributors. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimgoar at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 21:21:29 2006 From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:21:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Past simple 2 In-Reply-To: <200612061700.kB6H058X003924@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <727894.68614.qm@web31503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> www.pastsimpleg.org Past simple 2 is ready to kick you in the gut. Check it. Work by: Ryan Bird / Oni Buchanan / Adam Clay / Mark Cunningham / Stacy Dacheux / Elisa Gabbert / Judson Hamilton / Emilie Hanson / Matt Hart / Dustin Hellberg / Rebecca Loudon / Corey Mesler / Nate Pritts / Kathleen Rooney www.pastsimple.org In Luck, Jim Goar --------------------------------- Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Dec 7 21:45:02 2006 From: elemenope at icubed.com (elemenope at icubed.com) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 21:45:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Bly, the Fierce, Wright, the Strange, Stevens, the Sage, Gwynn, the Gracious Message-ID: <49764.205.201.10.98.1165545902.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com> This poem is a sequence of cliches: Lying in a Hammock at William Duffy's Farm in Pine Island, Minnesota Over my head, I see the bronze butterfly, Asleep on the black trunk, Blowing like a leaf in green shadow. Down the ravine behind the empty house, The cowbells follow one another Into the distances of the afternoon. To my right, In a field of sunlight between two pines, The droppings of last year's horses, Blaze up into golden stones. I lean back, as the evening darkens and comes on. A chicken hawk floats over, Looking for home. I have wasted my life. Wright is trying to write poetry. He seems to have succeeded, in part, maybe. Therefore, his self criticism, "I have wasted my life," may very well mean that he has wasted his time in writing an essentially inauthentic poem. Wallace Stevens writes in his essay, "The Figure of the Youth as a Virile Poet": >There is a life apart from politics. It is this life that the youth as virile poet lives, in a kind of radiant and productive atmosphere. It is the life of that atmosphere. There the philosopher is an alien. The pleasure that the poet has there is a pleasure of agreement with the radiant and productive world in which he lives. It is an agreement that Mallarme found in the sound of La vierge, le vivace et le bel aujourd'hui and that Hopkins found in the color of The thunder-purple seabeach plumed purple-of-thunder The indirect purpose or, perhaps, it would be better to say, inverted effect of soliloquies in hell and of most celestial poems and, in a general sense, of all music played on the terraces of the audiences of the moon, seems to be to produce an agreement with reality. It is the mundo of the imagination in which the imaginative man delights and not the gaunt world of the reason. The pleasure isthe pleasure of powers that create a truth that cannot be arrived at by the reason alonem a truth that the poet recognizes by sensation. The morality of the poet's radiant and productive atmosphere is the morality of the right sensation. ----- In the 1950s American poetry turned towards an infernal torment. This was something "new." By many it was perceived as essential if authenticity was to be achieved. A certain political persuasion founded in eternal disatisfaction appropriated to itself this morbidity. ---- Outside the foregoing, we have certain poets who embody the kind of sensibility Stevens acknowledges. Here is a poem by R.S. Gwynn published recently in The New Criterion: www.classmates.com They ask you to revive "your old connections," But those you lusted for as pure confections Have soured and sagged in various directions. Sign off and thank your stars for past rejections. ------ Of course, the virile poet as youth arrives at a place of good nature, irony and gracious intelligence. R.E.D. Here is the poem in question. I'm sure you'll appreciate the Marvell echo, Dave. It was written in 1963. Therefore, Bly was not actually astonished when Wright recited it that night in the late 1960s. Richard Lying in a Hammock at William Duffy's Farm in Pine Island, Minnesota Over my head, I see the bronze butterfly, Asleep on the black trunk, Blowing like a leaf in green shadow. Down the ravine behind the empty house, The cowbells follow one another Into the distances of the afternoon. To my right, In a field of sunlight between two pines, The droppings of last year's horses, Blaze up into golden stones. I lean back, as the evening darkens and comes on. A chicken hawk floats over, Looking for home. I have wasted my life. -- James Wright > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:27:48 -0000 > From: "David Bircumshaw" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Bly, the Fierce, Wright, the Strange To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <000501c70b93$133c1070$95c10556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Serious Richard > > you're Wrong, it isn't Wright! > > (hoi, what I'm really interested in au moment is finding out how to get a clockwork Laurel and Hardy, I have my agents commissioned on the quest, grin) > > All the Best > > Dave > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:19 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Bly, the Fierce, Wright, the Strange > > >> Birc - >> >> Jealous of me? It's been my little business to bear witness to many. But, that's not the point. >> It's Wright. Are you jealous of Wright? >> >> Me? Frankly, I was not jealous of him. Terrified, rather. >> >> R - - >> >> >> >> > Message: 3 >> > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 06:24:58 -0000 >> > From: "David Bircumshaw" >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bly, the Fierce, Wright, the Strange To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> > >> > Message-ID: <000901c70a11$1c907720$95c10556 at rayuv8pcloxi9v> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> > >> > Richard >> > >> > I'm jealous: that you saw Wright read. I'm a fan (but not of Bly) >> > >> > Best >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: >> > To: >> > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:46 AM >> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Bly, the Fierce, Wright, the Strange >> > >> > >> >> Cris, >> >> >> >> When this happened, i.e., when Wright spoke that line, I remember distinctly that a strange mad truth had been uttered. Everybody in >> the >> >> hall was looking at him, including Bly. Wright's eyes were black > ovals, >> >> fierce, and he was SEATED, at a remove, a distance from everybody, including Bly. Bly loomed in his Indian poncho across the stage, > turned >> >> 90 degrees from the audience toward this man in arctic white shirt, straight dropped down black tie. There wasn't anything one could do about >> >> this man's dilemma, leaning out from our seats unable to touch him. Wright was a serious character, an electric aura surrounded him like >> a >> >> photographic negative. Bly had introduced him as the most >> significant >> >> living poet. I remember thinking, "I wonder if Dabney Stuart is here witnessing this?" I can't prove it but I believe that Bly had never heard >> >> the poem before this moment, although he was Wright's champion and publisher in his magazine, "The Sixties." Bly had explained part of his >> >> theory regarding "Leaping Poetry." Upon the stage watched by all those >> >> aristocratic Southern women was a potent, defiant demonstration of >> this >> >> theory, hanging in the air like a smoke ring of dry ice. Caught Bly flatfooted. >> >> >> >> It was an intense night. Bly also hit us with: "Johnson's Cabinet Watched >> >> By Ants." As we say these days, a student of literature might be >> able >> >> to >> >> get their head around one of these figures, but the two of them out >> up >> >> there in the spotlights staring at the stage lights hitting them was simply out of mental reach. >> >> >> >> I just remembered (perhaps) the title of Wright's poem: >> >> >> >> "Lying In A Hammock On William Duffy's Farm" >> >> >> >> RD >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Message: 6 >> >> Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:44:12 -0500 >> >> From: cheekc >> >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bly, the Fierce, Wright, the Strange >> >> >> >> >> >> indeed Richard, >> >> >> >> but what a way to waste it;) >> >> >> >> love and love >> >> cris >> >> >> >> On Nov 7, 2006, at 4:58 PM, elemenope at icubed.com wrote: >> >> >> >> > I remember when Bly and Wright appeared on the same stage at Sweetbriar >> >> > College in the Blue Ridge Mountains. >> >> > Bly in serape introduced Wright in white shirt black tie as the greatest >> >> > living poet. >> >> > Wright recalled the poem wherein he announces while musing on a >> lawn >> >> littered with whatnot that he because of poetry has wasted his life. >> RD >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:56:42 +0000 > From: "Roger Day" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] In our dark times we need poetry more than > ever, argues Adrienne Rich > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > For Americans and the West, true. But don't get too cosy in your duvet-covers - disease and genocide still stalk other bits of our planet. I hear they've some bad times in Iraq. So, for the Empire and it's allies, everything's jim-dandy, and I'm whistling while I work this unseasonable November. For those considered dangerous to the Imperial well-being, well, welcome to hard times. > > Roger > > On 11/19/06, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Gotcha. Makes sense. From that perspective, I agree. >> >> >> Good grief, I'm not starting to make sense, am I?! >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > > -- > http://www.badstep.net/ > "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland!" > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 10:43:54 -0600 > From: David Graham > Subject: [New-Poetry] In our dark times > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &" > > Message-ID: <19D3535B-4E5C-4439-80FC-D0B13C574C10 at ripon.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I have great respect for Adrienne Rich and read her always with > interest. Her essay linked below is worth pondering, and is much more intelligent and subtle than any "we live in dark times" summary-- the phrase is quoted from Brecht, in any event, and Rich's argument is not that we live in dark times so much as an apology for the value of poetry in any times. > > Here's a relevant paragraph from Rich: > > "I'm both a poet and one of the "everybodies" of my country. I live with manipulated fear, ignorance, cultural confusion and social > antagonism huddling together on the faultline of an empire. I hope never to idealise poetry -- it has suffered enough from that. Poetry is not a healing lotion, an emotional massage, a kind of linguistic aromatherapy. Neither is it a blueprint, nor an instruction manual, nor a billboard. There is no universal Poetry, anyway, only poetries and poetics, and the streaming, intertwining histories to which they belong. There is room, indeed necessity, for both Neruda and C?sar Vall?jo, for Pier Paolo Pasolini and Alfonsina Storni, for both Ezra Pound and Nelly Sachs. Poetries are no more pure and simple than human histories are pure and simple. And there are colonised poetics and resilient poetics, transmissions across frontiers not easily traced." > > Still, the idea that we live in particularly dire times, historically speaking, is so common that it does deserve a skeptical glance. I agree with Bob Grumman on this, which I hope doesn't dismay him too much. > > I also hope that he doesn't mind agreeing with Robert Frost, who, way back in 1935, smack dab in the middle of that famously low, dishonest decade, expressed his own skepticism as follows: > > "But speaking of ages, you will often hear it said that the age of the world we live in is particularly bad. I am impatient of such talk. We have no way of knowing that this age is one of the worst in the world's history. Arnold claimed the honor for the age before this. Wordsworth claimed it for the last but one. And so on back through literature. I say they claimed the honor for their ages. They claimed it rather for themselves. It is immodest of a man to think of himself as going down before the worst forces ever mobilized by God." > --Robert Frost. "Letter to The Amherst Student." 25 March 1935. > ----- > > The risk of much self-consciously political poetry, as I believe Rich well knows, is just this: it is immodest. It makes a claim for the *poet* that overshadows other matters. > > > > On Nov 18, 2006, at 4:12 PM, wrote: > >> http://books.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329635373-110738,00.html >> >> Legislators of the world >> Commentary In our dark times we need poetry more than ever, argues Adrienne Rich >> >> Adrienne Rich >> Saturday November 18, 2006 >> > > ========================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ========================================== > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20061119/0b423c32/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 29, Issue 22 > ****************************************** > From jimgoar at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 21:51:24 2006 From: jimgoar at yahoo.com (jim goar) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:51:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] past simple 2 correct link In-Reply-To: <200612061700.kB6H058X003924@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <216781.79115.qm@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This will take you where you need to be www.pastsimple.org In typo Jim --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Dec 8 04:16:19 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:16:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac Message-ID: <002d01c71aa9$85994c80$48aa3852@ANNY> Poem: "Regarding (Most) Songs" by Thomas Lux, from The Street of Clocks. ? Houghton Mifflin Company. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) Regarding (Most) Songs Whatever is too stupid to say can be sung. -JOSEPH ADDISON (1672-1719) The human voice can sing a vowel to break your heart. It trills a string of banal words, but your blood jumps, regardless. You don't care about the words but only how they're sung and the music behind - the brass, the drums. Oh the primal, necessary drums behind the words so dumb! That power, the bang and the boom and again the bang we cannot, need not, live without, nor without other means to make sweet noise, the guitar or violin, the things that sing the plaintive, joyful sounds. Which is why I like songs best when I can't hear the words, or, better still, when there are no words at all. Thomas Lux -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Dec 8 11:09:12 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:09:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogden Nash & Paul Verlaine Message-ID: <560B9055-0E80-4A61-8C60-518304C4EC3E@ripon.edu> "For me, the thorny word in the title of this book is not "best" but "poetry" because I am rarely sure of what we are talking about when we talk about poetry. Serious discussions of poetry commonly imply a very narrow definition of the genre. When I hear it is said that "poetry... is about the extending of human consciousness, making conscious the unconscious, creating a symbolic consciousness that in its finest moments overcomes all the dualities in which the human world is cruelly and eternally... enmeshed," I wonder if that would include Alexander Pope's "Epistle to Dr. Arbuthnot" or the Yukon poems of Robert Service. When I read that "poetry's perpetual direction is its way of ensouling events, of seeking the doubleness in the events, the events' hidden or contradictory meaning," I get the feeling the writer did not have in mind Chaucer's ribaldry in "The Miller's Tale," Swift's vituperative "The Character of Sir Robert Walpole," or Ovid's "The Art of Love," where advice on the bedding of women is happily offered. Can Catullus telling Minimus that his girlfriend is the cheapest whore in Rome be "ensouled"? So much poetry-traditional and contemporary-falls outside the circle of such discussions that we might pause in our awareness of how small an area is circumscribed by such high-sounding, presumptuous critical talk. Many vital poems are excluded for being too ludic, satirical, insufficiently hallowed, or for coming up short in the sensitivity department. But they are poetry, too. In fact, such a wild hodgepodge of verbal activity takes place under the heading "poetry" that the term has been stretched beyond its ability to be defined. Can Ogden Nash and Paul Verlaine be expected to sleep soundly in the same bed?" --Billy Collins. from the introduction to *Best American Poetry*, 2006. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Dec 8 12:13:19 2006 From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:13:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogden Nash & Paul Verlaine Message-ID: <1264.1165597999@opus40.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Dec 8 12:15:11 2006 From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:15:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help with fuzzy memory? Message-ID: <1284.1165598111@opus40.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Dec 8 12:22:13 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:22:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help with fuzzy memory? In-Reply-To: <1284.1165598111@opus40.org> References: <1284.1165598111@opus40.org> Message-ID: Probably thinking of Wm. Matthews's classic essay, "Dull Subjects," about which I've certainly posted here multiply. Here's the relevant bit: I suspect the earliest compilers of a Subject Index to Poetry would find their major headings both borderless and few. To forestall such fruitless labors, I hereby offer a short but comprehensive summary of subjects for lyric poetry. 1. I went out into the woods today amid it made me feel, you know, sort of religious. 2. We?re not getting any younger. 3. It sure is cold and lonely (a) without you, honey, or (b) with you, honey. 4. Sadness seems but the other side of the coin of happiness, and vice versa, and in any case the coin is too soon spent amid on we know not what. One could, I suppose if one were possessed of a mania for condensation and categorization, offer a single ur-plot for lyric poetry and indeed for all imaginative literature, amid if so, one could do worse than the following four?word sentence, a plot summary of the Bob Hope, Bing Crosby amid Dorothy Lamour film, The Road to Bali: ?Amorous gorilla pursues Hope.? --Wm. Matthews, fr. "Dull Subjects" On Dec 8, 2006, at 11:15 AM, opus40-01 at opus40.org wrote: > > There's a gag about the subject matter of contemporary poetry, and > one part of it is something about going for a walk and feeling, you > know, all at one with the universe. > > Anyone know what I'm talking about? Can anyone give me the whole > thing? > > Tad > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Dec 8 12:34:07 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:34:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Loganic Message-ID: <25DAF4B8-2851-4902-883D-28229541CC0D@ripon.edu> Hop on over to the New Criterion to amuse yourself with the latest remarks by William Logan on books he doesn't like. This time out-- surprise!--he *really* doesn't much care for Mark Strand. And, in an actual surprise, a book he *does* sorta like, by Louise Gluck. The joke here is that it's her first book, promoted here as a "neglected" work worth re-visiting. http://www.newcriterion.com/archives/25/12/gods-chatter/ But rest assured, there's still plenty of the Logan we all know & love/hate: he's still taking utterly predictable potshots at poor Franz Wright, probably in hopes of provoking that soul to his own predictably intemperate replies. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opus40-01 at opus40.org Fri Dec 8 13:27:59 2006 From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 12:27:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Loganic Message-ID: <2139.1165602479@opus40.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Dec 8 13:30:42 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:30:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: FULCRUM on miPOradio Message-ID: <00ea01c71af7$0a67fd60$48aa3852@ANNY> Listen to Grace Cavalieri discussing Fulcrum on miPOradio! http://www.miporadio.net/GRACE_CAVALIERI/ Click the little headphones icon on the most recent item (Tue 05 Nov 2006). To learn more about the journal, visit http://fulcrumpoetry.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Dec 8 13:50:58 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:50:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help with fuzzy memory? References: <1284.1165598111@opus40.org> Message-ID: <010801c71af9$cca0d620$48aa3852@ANNY> There is no One like David, _indeed_ and Fate added some to it since I received this mail at 6.22pm and Tad's at 6.26pm. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: opus40-01 at opus40.org ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help with fuzzy memory? Probably thinking of Wm. Matthews's classic essay, "Dull Subjects," about which I've certainly posted here multiply. Here's the relevant bit: I suspect the earliest compilers of a Subject Index to Poetry would find their major headings both borderless and few. To forestall such fruitless labors, I hereby offer a short but comprehensive summary of subjects for lyric poetry. 1. I went out into the woods today amid it made me feel, you know, sort of religious. 2. We?re not getting any younger. 3. It sure is cold and lonely (a) without you, honey, or (b) with you, honey. 4. Sadness seems but the other side of the coin of happiness, and vice versa, and in any case the coin is too soon spent amid on we know not what. One could, I suppose if one were possessed of a mania for condensation and categorization, offer a single ur-plot for lyric poetry and indeed for all imaginative literature, amid if so, one could do worse than the following four?word sentence, a plot summary of the Bob Hope, Bing Crosby amid Dorothy Lamour film, The Road to Bali: ?Amorous gorilla pursues Hope.? --Wm. Matthews, fr. "Dull Subjects" On Dec 8, 2006, at 11:15 AM, opus40-01 at opus40.org wrote: There's a gag about the subject matter of contemporary poetry, and one part of it is something about going for a walk and feeling, you know, all at one with the universe. Anyone know what I'm talking about? Can anyone give me the whole thing? Tad _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Dec 10 11:51:21 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:51:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: 300 New Literary Ref & Criticism Books Just Added - Special Discount Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Scholar's Bookshelf" Subject: 300 New Literary Ref & Criticism Books Just Added - Special Discount Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 17:23:33 -0500 Size: 2173 URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Dec 10 12:54:26 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:54:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] why do I read poetry? Message-ID: <004101c71c84$3bc474e0$3aac3452@ANNY> Paz visited Frost when the poet was seventy. He lived another nineteen years. He kept reading poetry, his favorite form of understanding, as he said, and the best way of thinking. In an interview he remarked, "Too many poets delude themselves by thinking the mind is dangerous and must be left out. Well, the mind is dangerous and must be left in". Lives of the Poets, Michael Schmidt, page 580 (randomly opened). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Dec 10 13:23:47 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:23:47 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel Message-ID: <2E910C01-AAD1-4352-ACEF-B132181FADDB@ripon.edu> Who's the best contemporary American poet? Well, according to Adam Kirsch, it just may be Frederick Seidel. http://www.nysun.com/article/44784 I looked at all the anthologies on my shelf and did not find any of his work, with the exception of one piece in Jorie Graham's edition of *Best American Poetry*. I have probably run across some poems in journals over the years, but frankly nothing that made me want to seek out more. I've located a handful of piece online today, and I confess I've found nothing that tallies even remotely with Kirsch's claim. Any Seidel fans out there? ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Dec 10 13:41:46 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:41:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel References: <2E910C01-AAD1-4352-ACEF-B132181FADDB@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <005201c71c8a$d8e6fdf0$6501a8c0@OldMoleExpress> ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry & Views Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 1:23 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel Who's the best contemporary American poet? Me!!!!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Dec 10 15:05:20 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:05:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Theodore Worozbyt Message-ID: <008101c71c96$85713710$3aac3452@ANNY> Tuesday Marriage Death http://www.bu.edu/agni/poetry/online/2006/worozbyt-tuesday.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Dec 10 15:28:22 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:28:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel References: <2E910C01-AAD1-4352-ACEF-B132181FADDB@ripon.edu> <005201c71c8a$d8e6fdf0$6501a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: <00be01c71c99$bcd30af0$3aac3452@ANNY> undoubtedly :-) (you mean _the exclamation marks_?) my double self, never trust me, word of Anny: as I was saying, Tad Richards! ----- Original Message ----- From: TheOldMole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 7:41 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry & Views Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 1:23 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel Who's the best contemporary American poet? Me!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Sun Dec 10 15:34:26 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:34:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel In-Reply-To: <2E910C01-AAD1-4352-ACEF-B132181FADDB@ripon.edu> Message-ID: I'm curious if everything he does is such sing songy doggerel as the stuff quoted in the article. I mean, I can see that being a nice effect sometimes, but i think a whole book of it would be kind of tedious. On Sun, 10 Dec 2006, David Graham wrote: > Who's the best contemporary American poet? Well, according to Adam Kirsch, it > just may be Frederick Seidel. > > http://www.nysun.com/article/44784 > > I looked at all the anthologies on my shelf and did not find any of his work, > with the exception of one piece in Jorie Graham's edition of *Best American > Poetry*. I have probably run across some poems in journals over the years, but > frankly nothing that made me want to seek out more. I've located a handful of > piece online today, and I confess I've found nothing that tallies even remotely > with Kirsch's claim. > > Any Seidel fans out there? > > ========================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ========================================== > > > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Dec 10 17:22:52 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:22:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel References: <2E910C01-AAD1-4352-ACEF-B132181FADDB@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <007101c71ca9$c0e5b9c0$4fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Who's the best contemporary American poet? Well, according to Adam Kirsch, it just may be Frederick Seidel. http://www.nysun.com/article/44784 I looked at all the anthologies on my shelf and did not find any of his work, with the exception of one piece in Jorie Graham's edition of *Best American Poetry*. I have probably run across some poems in journals over the years, but frankly nothing that made me want to seek out more. I've located a handful of piece online today, and I confess I've found nothing that tallies even remotely with Kirsch's claim. Any Seidel fans out there? What I wonder is what poets' work Kirsch knows anything about. Maybe he says in his article. I haven't had time to read it yet. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Dec 10 19:09:59 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:09:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel References: <2E910C01-AAD1-4352-ACEF-B132181FADDB@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <008501c71cb8$b9003ff0$4fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Okay, I've now read the article. I would term it a piece of moron litcrit--or standard NY Times literary criticism. The author tells us Seidel may be America's best poet but fails to say why. He quotes a few poems, but says little about them except what they are about. It would seem that all that counts in poetry is whether or not you find its subject matter interesting and approve of its author's personality and attitude toward life. Seidel has a good sense of humor. Technique? Well, Kirsch does mention the rhymes in one of Seidel's poems. Does Seidel extend what poetry can do? Whuhzat? He seems to me a competent enough poet, but nothing special. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Dec 10 19:53:34 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:53:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel Message-ID: In a message dated 12/10/2006 6:09:31 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > > Okay, I've now read the article. I would term it a piece of moron > litcrit--or standard NY Times literary criticism. The author tells us Seidel may be > America's best poet but fails to say why. He quotes a few poems, but says > little about them except what they are about. It would seem that all that > counts in poetry is whether or not you find its subject matter interesting and > approve of its author's personality and attitude toward life. Seidel has a good > sense of humor. Technique? Well, Kirsch does mention the rhymes in one of > Seidel's poems. Does Seidel extend what poetry can do? Whuhzat? > > He seems to me a competent enough poet, but nothing special. > > --Bob G. > It was the Sun, Bob. I've reviewed Seidel and found him absolutely forgettable, no, worse than that--unforgettably bad. I think Kirsch has gone off his rocker. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Dec 10 19:56:06 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:56:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel Message-ID: Kirsch was, I believe, one of Vendler's prize students, so maybe he's stepping into the gap and establishing his own canon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Dec 10 22:17:33 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:17:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel References: Message-ID: <00db01c71cd2$ec7ad010$4fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks for the correction, Sam--my excuse is that the Times is advertised in the upper righthand corner of the page Kirsch's article starts on--and the Sun logo looks a little Timesish. Plus, Kirsch does write NY Time litcrit! Didn't know he was a student of Vendler's. Does he write poetry himself, do you know? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Dec 11 02:17:33 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:17:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peter Ciccariello Message-ID: <008301c71cf4$6dc89b90$a7aa3252@ANNY> I find this work by Peter Ciccariello impressive: Language as authority -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Dec 11 13:24:31 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:24:31 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alarmed & startled eyes Message-ID: <63F9F9AD-DD40-493E-B004-10E2A8639DC1@ripon.edu> AFTER THE ANONYMOUS SWEDISH (17th Century) Deep in the forest there is a pond, small, shaded by a pine so tall its shadow crosses her surface. The water is cold and dark and clear, let it preserve those who lie at the bottom invisible to us in perpetual dark. It is our heaven, this bottomless water that will keep us forever still; though hands might barely touch they'll never wander up an arm in caress or lift a drink; we'll lie with the swords and bones of our fathers on a bed of silt and pine needles. In our night we'll wait for those who walk the green and turning earth, our brothers, even the birds and deer, who always float down to us with alarmed and startled eyes. --Jim Harrison. Selected & New Poems, 1982. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 11 16:03:57 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:03:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Best American poet: Seidel Message-ID: In a message dated 12/10/2006 10:17:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: Didn't know he was a student of Vendler's. Does he write poetry himself, do you know? Kirsch did publish a book of poem in the near past. I've not read it...so can't say much. I seldom agree with his reviews...but I'm happy someone/anyone is placing poetry book reviews in major periodicals. Seidel I've followed a little for a few reasons. He came from St. Louis, after TS Eliot and before me. There is an oddity to his poetry, a quirkiness, often driven by fractured diction or a skewed perspective...these things I find intriguing. I don't associate him with rhyme...but maybe I don't hear rhyme the way others do. He writes about things no one else would and he probably shouldn't have. He's published quite a few collections...but I don't know if I've seen a Selected. He's not the chatty New York poet talking with a bagel hanging out of the side of his mouth. The last book of his I read was My Tokyo and that's got to be decade old...so I can't say I'm entirely up to speed on his recent work. Somehow I think of him as 'outsider poet' even though he's published by FSG. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 11 16:05:55 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:05:55 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler Profile Message-ID: _http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/books/review/Donadio.t.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/books/review/Donadio.t.html) she is the A. Kingsley Porter university professor ? but the lecture hall is not her only sphere of influence. She is also the leading poetry critic in America, the author of major books on Wallace Stevens, Keats and Shakespeare, and for a generation has been a powerful arbiter of the contemporary poetry scene. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dick at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com Mon Dec 11 18:43:28 2006 From: dick at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (dick at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:43:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who is the Best Poet Message-ID: <200612112351.kBBNpGuL007274@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> >>Thanks for the correction, Sam--my excuse is that the Times is advertised in the upper righthand corner of the page Kirsch's article >>starts on--and the Sun logo looks a little Timesish. Plus, Kirsch does write NY Time litcrit! >> >>Didn't know he was a student of Vendler's. Does he write poetry himself, do you know? >> >>--Bob Yes Kirsch has a book out - "The Thousand Wells - Winner of the New Criterion Poetry Prize" according to Amazon. You know, those wonderful folks who bring you William Logan every too often. I heard Kirsch speak at West Chester a few years ago - he was surprisingly eloquent at about 27 years old - but how much can he know, he's still damp. I thought James Tate was America's best poet. Richard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Dec 11 20:34:13 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:34:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who is the Best Poet References: <200612112351.kBBNpGuL007274@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <007601c71d8d$ab5a8920$82b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >>>Thanks for the correction, Sam--my excuse is that the Times is advertised >>>in the upper righthand corner of the page Kirsch's > article >>>starts on--and the Sun logo looks a little Timesish. Plus, Kirsch does >>>write NY Time litcrit! >>> >>>Didn't know he was a student of Vendler's. Does he write poetry himself, >>>do you know? >>> >>>--Bob > > Yes Kirsch has a book out - "The Thousand Wells - Winner of the New > Criterion > Poetry Prize" according to Amazon. You know, those wonderful folks who > bring you William Logan every too often. Ah, yes--I knew the name was pretty familiar to me. I read the New Criterion front to back every issue. They have literate writers who are very good, I think, for keeping one up-to-date on how the art of fifty years ago is doing. > I heard Kirsch speak at West Chester a few years ago - he was surprisingly > eloquent at about 27 years old - but how much can he know, he's still > damp. > > I thought James Tate was America's best poet. > > Richard Didn't you read James's post about America's "leading critic," Helen Vendler, Richard? She would set you straight: America's best poet is John Ashbery. I find it amusing that pundits who are about twenty percent as familiar with what's going on in American poetry today as I am are able so confidently to say who our best poet is--when I sure don't have sufficient data to do so (assuming I'd have the judgement to if I did have sufficient data). --Bob G. From elemenope at icubed.com Mon Dec 11 20:52:41 2006 From: elemenope at icubed.com (elemenope at icubed.com) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:52:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do I read poetry? (Anny Ballardini) In-Reply-To: <200612111700.kBBH068X010429@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200612111700.kBBH068X010429@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <54503.205.201.10.98.1165888361.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com> One thing I can attest to, having seen her from afar making a major appearance in Harvard Square at noon daily, Paz had a dangerous wife. She would don one of those Zuk raincoats and get out there on the island, her blonde hair flaring in the liquid light, and let the traffic part as she launched for her next rendevous. RD > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:54:26 +0100 > From: "Anny Ballardini" > Subject: [New-Poetry] why do I read poetry? > Paz visited Frost when the poet was seventy. He lived another nineteen > years. He kept reading poetry, his favorite form of understanding, as he > said, and the best way of thinking. In an interview he remarked, > "Too many poets delude themselves by thinking the mind is dangerous and > must be left out. Well, the mind is dangerous and must be left in". From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Dec 11 21:12:11 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:12:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sizing up Seidel In-Reply-To: <200612112351.kBBNpGuL007274@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> References: <200612112351.kBBNpGuL007274@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: I don't think we have any "best poet"--certainly not one that a significant number of readers would agree on. The scene is too fragmented, contentious; and the numbers are simply too huge. Even if Helen Vendler wanted to read all the books published every year, she couldn't. No one could. Still, what struck me about Kirsch nominating Frederick Seidel for Best Poet was that Seidel isn't even remotely a Usual Suspect in any camp I know about -- his name recognition, even among poetry addicts, is far far less than, say, Jorie Graham, Michael Palmer, Gerald Stern, Adrienne Rich, Dana Gioia, Ron Silliman, John Ashbery, Philip Levine, Carolyn Kizer, Rita Dove, Albert Goldbarth, Louise Gluck, and many dozens more who spring to mind. His lack of presence in most anthologies, course syllabi, critical studies, and academic conferences would also indicate that, despite his prestige publisher, he's a dark horse oddball. Not that there's anything *wrong* with being a dark horse oddball, of course. And not to say he's a poor poet, necessarily. I haven't read enough yet to make a judgment, myself. I'll admit that Sam Gwynn's review did not encourage me to make an immediate Amazon order of Seidel. . . But if recent response on this list is at all indicative, he's not on many of your short lists for major poet, either. Aside from Sam Gwynn and Jim Finnegan, can we have a show of hands? How many of you have ever read an entire book by Seidel? ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From screwzbaran at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 21:20:00 2006 From: screwzbaran at gmail.com (Suzanne Baran) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:20:00 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sizing up Seidel In-Reply-To: References: <200612112351.kBBNpGuL007274@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0612111820p780d97c0vb66d6dbfce7917@mail.gmail.com> Good points! I have never read an entire book by Seidel... On 12/11/06, David Graham wrote: > > I don't think we have any "best poet"--certainly not one that a > significant number of readers would agree on. The scene is too fragmented, > contentious; and the numbers are simply too huge. Even if Helen Vendler > wanted to read all the books published every year, she couldn't. No one > could. > > > Still, what struck me about Kirsch nominating Frederick Seidel for Best > Poet was that Seidel isn't even remotely a Usual Suspect in any camp I know > about -- his name recognition, even among poetry addicts, is far far less > than, say, Jorie Graham, Michael Palmer, Gerald Stern, Adrienne Rich, Dana > Gioia, Ron Silliman, John Ashbery, Philip Levine, Carolyn Kizer, Rita Dove, > Albert Goldbarth, Louise Gluck, and many dozens more who spring to mind. > His lack of presence in most anthologies, course syllabi, critical studies, > and academic conferences would also indicate that, despite his prestige > publisher, he's a dark horse oddball. > > > Not that there's anything *wrong* with being a dark horse oddball, of > course. And not to say he's a poor poet, necessarily. I haven't read > enough yet to make a judgment, myself. I'll admit that Sam Gwynn's review > did not encourage me to make an immediate Amazon order of Seidel. . . > > > But if recent response on this list is at all indicative, he's not on many > of your short lists for major poet, either. Aside from Sam Gwynn and Jim > Finnegan, can we have a show of hands? How many of you have ever read an > entire book by Seidel? > > ========================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > *http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html* > > Poetry Library: > > *http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html* > > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "It is the gravity of what we do not express that smothers the beauty our hearts disguise, our first great breaths, our unknown perfections, the summons of our most brazen blood, and the tolling of our truest tears." -- J. Ryan Stradal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Dec 12 03:28:47 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:28:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac Message-ID: <004c01c71dc7$8b42d9a0$a1e03652@ANNY> Poem: "Poem: "Night Below Zero" by Kenneth Rexroth, from The Complete Poems of Kenneth Rexroth. ? Copper Canyon Press. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) Night Below Zero 3 AM, the night is absolutely still; Snow squeals beneath my skis, plumes on the turns. I stop at the canyon's edge, stand looking out Over the Great Valley, over the millions - In bed, drunk, loving, tending mills, furnaces, Alone, wakeful, as the world rolls in chaos. The quarter moon rises in the black heavens - Over the sharp constellations of the cities The cold lies, crystalline and silent, Locked between the mountains. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Dec 12 09:20:29 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:20:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Sizing up Seidel Message-ID: He may be the best poet on the Upper East Side. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Dec 12 09:46:31 2006 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:46:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sizing up Seidel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C8B3612-7FE1-474E-8C44-11EF0FECD14E@earthlink.net> Which block? Hal "Am I wrong, or are fewer and fewer people using the word 'Weltschmerz' these days?" --Christopher Howell Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com halvard at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Dec 12, 2006, at 9:20 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > He may be the best poet on the Upper East Side. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Dec 12 12:36:25 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:36:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Sizing up Seidel Message-ID: In a message dated 12/12/2006 9:21:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: He may be the best poet on the Upper East Side. That's not bad...population-wise that may be like saying he's best poet in Estonia or Botswana. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Dec 12 12:40:23 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:40:23 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is ... ? Message-ID: <003601c71e14$9a54dae0$87c93a52@ANNY> "What is reality?" and "What constitutes the authentic human being?" "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." That's all I could come up with. That was back in 1972. Since then I haven't been able to define reality any more lucidly. http://downlode.org/etext/how_to_build.html Phlip Dick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Dec 13 12:21:28 2006 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:21:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dick Barnes Message-ID: <9906DA2F-B587-4CED-824A-6570461A43AB@ripon.edu> Speaking of unknown poets, last summer I discovered the work of Dick Barnes, whose selected poems were published posthumously in 2005. Like Frederick Seidel's, his was a name I guess I was vaguely aware of, but I couldn't have named a book or poem by him. He's still not exactly easy to find--not published by FSG, for one thing. His selected poems was edited by Robert Mezey, whose introduction to the work is very compelling. I'm sure that the blurb on the jacket from David Ferry ("one of the best poets we've had in America") will convince as few readers as Adam Kirsch's praise of Seidel seems to, but Barnes is really worth checking out. Anyway, I've been greatly enjoying his work. Here's a tiny sample: Example and Admonition My father's admonition: when given a choice, choose the path that leads uphill, always, so up we went, but all led down soon after: our destination Deep Creek, where the water had gathered by taking every downhill opportunity. We thought of that when the higher path turned down, but no one mentioned it then, nor ever, in fact, till now. Two lessons: and though sometimes I feel clever, and have read the Chou I book all about that water, I've not forsaken either one. If there be something in a man that flows uphill, he has to go with it whatever sweat or humiliation may attend his going. Done patiently, this is called "matching heaven with heaven." Otherwise, just strife. --Dick Barnes =========================== A Child Who Is Not Likable A child who is not likable, quite lacks the innocent coquetries of her age and sex, knocks things over often, demands what she can get, does not expect to be liked, and is not likable?and yet seldom frets, and never without calculation, sees right through the phony kindness of adults she knows, plays soberly upon their vanities, never pleads for mercy nor for the love she isn?t going to get, gets what she has, and keeps it. --Dick Barnes. A Word Like Fire: Selected Poems. Handsel Books, 2005. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 13 12:29:22 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:29:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Dick Barnes Message-ID: <387.f9c85f0.32b19272@cs.com> In a message dated 12/13/2006 11:19:31 AM Central Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > > > Speaking of unknown poets, last summer I discovered the work of Dick Barnes, > whose selected poems were published posthumously in 2005. Like Frederick > Seidel's, his was a name I guess I was vaguely aware of, but I couldn't have > named a book or poem by him. He's still not exactly easy to find--not > published by FSG, for one thing. > > > His selected poems was edited by Robert Mezey, whose introduction to the > work is very compelling. I'm sure that the blurb on the jacket from David Ferry > ("one of the best poets we've had in America") will convince as few readers > as Adam Kirsch's praise of Seidel seems to, but Barnes is really worth > checking out. > > > He and Mezey co-translated Borges's poetry, but the poet's estate would not allow the huge book to be published. It's pretty impressive work, restoring Borges's formal practices. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Dec 13 12:46:26 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:46:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dick Barnes In-Reply-To: <387.f9c85f0.32b19272@cs.com> References: <387.f9c85f0.32b19272@cs.com> Message-ID: You've anthologized Dick Barnes, haven't you, Sam? That may be where I first tumbled on to him. A nice essay on Barnes by Rbt. Mezey (quoting liberally from his introduction to the selected poems) is online here: http://www.pomona.edu/Magazine/PCMfl05/DEbookshelf.shtml If anyone's interested, I found a good number of his poems & a sampling of his Borges translations online, too--easily discoved via Google. On Dec 13, 2006, at 11:29 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/13/2006 11:19:31 AM Central Standard Time, > GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: >> >> >> Speaking of unknown poets, last summer I discovered the work of >> Dick Barnes, whose selected poems were published posthumously in >> 2005. Like Frederick Seidel's, his was a name I guess I was >> vaguely aware of, but I couldn't have named a book or poem by >> him. He's still not exactly easy to find--not published by FSG, >> for one thing. >> >> >> His selected poems was edited by Robert Mezey, whose introduction >> to the work is very compelling. I'm sure that the blurb on the >> jacket from David Ferry ("one of the best poets we've had in >> America") will convince as few readers as Adam Kirsch's praise of >> Seidel seems to, but Barnes is really worth checking out. >> >> > > He and Mezey co-translated Borges's poetry, but the poet's estate > would not allow the huge book to be published. It's pretty > impressive work, restoring Borges's formal practices. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 13 13:33:32 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:33:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dick Barnes Message-ID: In a message dated 12/13/2006 11:44:36 AM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > You've anthologized Dick Barnes, haven't you, Sam? That may be where I > first tumbled on to him. No, I haven't, but I look forward to seeing the book. Thanks for reminding me about it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Dec 13 16:25:20 2006 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:25:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best NonAmerican Poetry Message-ID: Every year about this time there's a little flutter of discussion about which were the best books of poems published during the year. Well, this year there need be no debate. It's obvious: New Directions has put out Tomas Transtromer's *The Great Enigma: New Collected Poems*, translated by Robin Fulton. It puts between two covers all the poems Transtromer has published in book form to date. Golden Wasp The blindworm that legless lizard flows along the porch step calm and majestic as an anaconda, only the size is different. The sky is covered with clouds but the sun pushes through. Such is the day. This morning the woman I love drove away the evil spirits. As when you open the door of a dark shed somewhere in the south and the light pours in and the cockroaches scurry into the corners and up the walls and are gone?you saw them and you didn't see them? so her nakedness made the demons run. As if they never existed. But they'll come back. With a thousand hands crossing the lines in the old-fashioned telephone exchange of the nerves. It's the fifth of July. The lupines are stretching up as if they wanted to catch sight of the sea. We're in the church of keeping-silence, of piety according to no letter. As if they didn't exist, the implacable faces of the patriarchs and the misspelling of God's name in stone. I saw a true-to-the-letter TV preacher who'd piled up money. But he was weak now and needed the support of a bodyguard, who was a well-tailored young man with a smile tight as a muzzle. A smile stifling a scream. The scream of a child left alone in a hospital bed when the parents leave. The divine brushes against a human being and lights a flame but then draws back. Why? The flame attracts the shadows, they fly rustling in and join the flame, which rises and blackens. And the smoke spreads out black and strangling. At last only the black smoke, at last only the pious executioner. The pious executioner leans forward over the market square and the crowd that make a grainy mirror in which he can see himself. The greatest fanatic is the greatest doubter. Without knowing it. He is a pact between two where the one is a hundred percent visible and the other invisible. How I hate that expression "a hundred percent." Those who can never exist anywhere except on their fa?ades those who are never absentminded those who never open the wrong door and catch a glimpse of the Unidentified One. Walk past them! It's the fifth of July. The sky is covered with clouds but the sun pushes through. The blindworm flows along the porch step, calm and majestic as an anaconda. The blindworm as if there were no bureaucracy. The golden wasp as if there were no idolatry. The lupines as if there were no "hundred percent." I know the depth where one is both prisoner and ruler, like Persephone. I often lay in the stiff grass down there and watched the earth arch over me. The vault of the earth. Often?that was half of my life. But today my gaze has left me. My blindness has gone away. The dark bat has left my face and is scissoring around in summer's bright space. Tomas Transtr?mer Translated from the Swedish by Robin Fulton The Great Enigma: New Collected Poems New Directions ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Wed Dec 13 16:28:40 2006 From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:28:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] PEN Poetry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C8ED14CACCE21D-8F8-6394@mblk-r11.sysops.aol.com> On a related topic, at the PEN award dinner last night in California, the following poetry books were acknowledged: FINALISTS: Victoria Chang Circle (South Illinois University Press) Richard Siken Crush (Yale University Press) Amber Flora Thomas Eye of Water (University of Pittsburgh Press) Kerri Webster We Do Not Eat Our Hearts Alone (University of Georgia Press) WINNER: Brian Turner Here, Bullet (Alice James Books) The judges say: With unflinching imagery and unadorned language, Brian Turner?s Here, Bullet provides an ardent, relevant picture of the war in Iraq. This however, is not just poetry of witness. As a poet and soldier, Turner recovers a mind that has ?become very clear,? that sees between the ?blood moon? over the Tigris River and ?clouds made of gunpowder and rain,? that also, in poem after poem, finds the center of humanity, whether it?s ?the white-ochre saltflats? where women gather salt by hand, or the words of Sgt. Gutierrez as he comforts ?an injured man who cupped pieces of his friend?s brain.? Brian Turner?s balanced consequence of experience emerges from literal seeing and imaginative seeing. In a year where these poetry panelists were dazzled by the innovative range of language and subject matter evident in so many of the entries, we ultimately felt that Here, Bulletpresented a necessary imperative force upon the consciousness of its readers. In the translation of mankind?s return to war, truth and inspiration become integral parts of the human spirit. Poet Laureate Donald Hall said a poem is ?a human inside talking to a human inside.? So, Turner?s illuminated work reminds us we are not merely distant onlookers. Here, is the destruction of war, our unimaginable loss of life on all sides of the conflict. Here are Turner?s birds that carry all his ?bullets into the barrel of the sun,? and the words that carry a soldier home, to the heart of who we are. Here is a talented poet?s window: come close and look. JUDGES: Terry Wolverton (Chair), Elena Karina Byrne, Shole Wolpe -----Original Message----- From: GrahamD at ripon.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 1:25 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Best NonAmerican Poetry Every year about this time there's a little flutter of discussion about which were the best books of poems published during the year. Well, this year there need be no debate. It's obvious: New Directions has put out Tomas Transtromer's *The Great Enigma: New Collected Poems*, translated by Robin Fulton. It puts between two covers all the poems Transtromer has published in book form to date. Golden Wasp The blindworm that legless lizard flows along the porch step calm and majestic as an anaconda, only the size is different. The sky is covered with clouds but the sun pushes through. Such is the day. This morning the woman I love drove away the evil spirits. As when you open the door of a dark shed somewhere in the south and the light pours in and the cockroaches scurry into the corners and up the walls and are gone?you saw them and you didn't see them? so her nakedness made the demons run. As if they never existed. But they'll come back. With a thousand hands crossing the lines in the old-fashioned telephone exchange of the nerves. It's the fifth of July. The lupines are stretching up as if they wanted to catch sight of the sea. We're in the church of keeping-silence, of piety according to no letter. As if they didn't exist, the implacable faces of the patriarchs and the misspelling of God's name in stone. I saw a true-to-the-letter TV preacher who'd piled up money. But he was weak now and needed the support of a bodyguard, who was a well-tailored young man with a smile tight as a muzzle. A smile stifling a scream. The scream of a child left alone in a hospital bed when the parents leave. The divine brushes against a human being and lights a flame but then draws back. Why? The flame attracts the shadows, they fly rustling in and join the flame, which rises and blackens. And the smoke spreads out black and strangling. At last only the black smoke, at last only the pious executioner. The pious executioner leans forward over the market square and the crowd that make a grainy mirror in which he can see himself. The greatest fanatic is the greatest doubter. Without knowing it. He is a pact between two where the one is a hundred percent visible and the other invisible. How I hate that expression "a hundred percent." Those who can never exist anywhere except on their fa?ades those who are never absentminded those who never open the wrong door and catch a glimpse of the Unidentified One. Walk past them! It's the fifth of July. The sky is covered with clouds but the sun pushes through. The blindworm flows along the porch step, calm and majestic as an anaconda. The blindworm as if there were no bureaucracy. The golden wasp as if there were no idolatry. The lupines as if there were no "hundred percent." I know the depth where one is both prisoner and ruler, like Persephone. I often lay in the stiff grass down there and watched the earth arch over me. The vault of the earth. Often?that was half of my life. But today my gaze has left me. My blindness has gone away. The dark bat has left my face and is scissoring around in summer's bright space. Tomas Transtr?mer Translated from the Swedish by Robin Fulton The Great Enigma: New Collected Poems New Directions ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Dec 13 16:40:51 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:40:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Poetry Prize References: <387.f9c85f0.32b19272@cs.com> Message-ID: <006e01c71eff$786558b0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Ha, forget this talk about who the best American poet is. It's me. I just got the following confrimation: Robert, The Editors of The International Library of Poetry were thrilled to inform you that your poem was bestowed the prestigious Editor's Choice Award because of your artistic accomplishments and unique perspective--characteristics found in the most noteworthy poetic works. To further commemorate this prestigious achievement we have elected you to receive the 2006 Editor's Choice Published Poet Ribbon Award Pin" Can Seidel or even Mole say the same!!! I have a problem regarding it, though: it costs $19.95 plus shipping and handling, and I don't have that kind of money. So I was wondering if everyone at New-Poetry could send me a dollar at 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte FL 33952. I will use the money I get above what is required for the pin to have a photograph of me proudly displaying the pin sent to each person helping me out. Note: this was all the result of my investigating Poetry.com (I believe that's its name) on behalf of one of my blog's visitors who thought I knew what was going on in the poetry world and e.mailed me for my opinion of it. I went to its webpage and read its daily poem. The latter wasn't bad, so I thought the outfit might be genuinely out to help unpublished poets. I wrote what I think is a pretty good poem on the spot and e.mailed it to them. I can't remember what happened to the poem. It may well have been published as one of their daily poems. I definitely got a positive e.mail about it. I do know that the website revealed itself for the standard predator on would-be poets it was by getting all kinds of regular mail about my poem's being published in some anthology or another. And now this. Not totally dishonest, I suppose, and no doubt for some people (one I know from my local writing group) getting a poem into a hardbound book called "The Best Poems of 2005" or something close to that, the book is worth the not super-exorbitant cost ($40 or so). My writing club friend went ahead and bought a copy of such a book and it extremely pleased her--in spite of our gently telling her in advance what a con it was. A benign swindle? Another firend of mine thinks it is. I just don't know. I'm for people's being happy, but against the dishonesty of pretending bad poets (and I've since seen many bad poems at poetry.com) are good. It might make some of the bad poets not take up something they're actually fairly good at instead of writing bad poems. Similarly, maybe if no one bought vanity anthologies, their publishers might be forced to do something of much greater benefit to society. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From screwzbaran at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 16:47:36 2006 From: screwzbaran at gmail.com (Suzanne Baran) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:47:36 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Poetry Prize In-Reply-To: <006e01c71eff$786558b0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <387.f9c85f0.32b19272@cs.com> <006e01c71eff$786558b0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0612131347ocbfb8f0pbf84f59664c713b4@mail.gmail.com> Hilarious! I receive offers like this one all the time. On 12/13/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Ha, forget this talk about who the best American poet is. It's me. I > just got the following confrimation: > > > Robert, > > The Editors of *The International Library of Poetry* were thrilled to > inform you that your poem was bestowed the prestigious Editor's Choice Award > because of your artistic accomplishments and unique > perspective--characteristics found in the most noteworthy poetic works. To > further commemorate this prestigious achievement we have elected you to > receive the *2006 Editor's Choice Published Poet Ribbon Award Pin* > " > > Can Seidel or even Mole say the same!!! > > I have a problem regarding it, though: it costs $19.95 plus shipping and > handling, and I don't have that kind of money. So I was wondering if > everyone at New-Poetry could send me a dollar at 1708 Hayworth Road, Port > Charlotte FL 33952. I will use the money I get above what is required for > the pin to have a photograph of me proudly displaying the pin sent to each > person helping me out. > > Note: this was all the result of my investigating Poetry.com (I believe > that's its name) on behalf of one of my blog's visitors who thought I knew > what was going on in the poetry world and e.mailed me for my opinion of > it. I went to its webpage and read its daily poem. The latter wasn't bad, > so I thought the outfit might be genuinely out to help unpublished poets. I > wrote what I think is a pretty good poem on the spot and e.mailed it to > them. > > I can't remember what happened to the poem. It may well have been > published as one of their daily poems. I definitely got a positive e.mailabout it. I do know that the website revealed itself for the standard > predator on would-be poets it was by getting all kinds of regular mail about > my poem's being published in some anthology or another. And now this. > > Not totally dishonest, I suppose, and no doubt for some people (one I know > from my local writing group) getting a poem into a hardbound book called > "The Best Poems of 2005" or something close to that, the book is worth the > not super-exorbitant cost ($40 or so). My writing club friend went ahead > and bought a copy of such a book and it extremely pleased her--in spite of > our gently telling her in advance what a con it was. A benign swindle? > Another firend of mine thinks it is. I just don't know. I'm for people's > being happy, but against the dishonesty of pretending bad poets (and I've > since seen many bad poems at poetry.com) are good. It might make some of > the bad poets not take up something they're actually fairly good at instead > of writing bad poems. Similarly, maybe if no one bought vanity anthologies, > their publishers might be forced to do something of much greater benefit to > society. > > --Bob G. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "It is the gravity of what we do not express that smothers the beauty our hearts disguise, our first great breaths, our unknown perfections, the summons of our most brazen blood, and the tolling of our truest tears." -- J. Ryan Stradal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Dec 13 17:04:28 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:04:28 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Poetry Prize References: <387.f9c85f0.32b19272@cs.com> <006e01c71eff$786558b0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00e201c71f02$a8eeb3c0$bdeb3652@ANNY> Oh my God, what a conFRImation Rob _Bob no time to fritter in frivolous frogs I am just about as thrilled as you can be what kind of plea are U addressing me, should we Seidel up a couple of bucks or Mole them down the underground ribbon them on the Upper Eastonian East or award 'em length to the Botsvanian Bess Tess of the d'Urbersville? Hardly awake but still amazed your never_flinching flickering fan /to cool you down :-( ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] My Poetry Prize Ha, forget this talk about who the best American poet is. It's me. I just got the following confrimation: Robert, The Editors of The International Library of Poetry were thrilled to inform you that your poem was bestowed the prestigious Editor's Choice Award because of your artistic accomplishments and unique perspective--characteristics found in the most noteworthy poetic works. To further commemorate this prestigious achievement we have elected you to receive the 2006 Editor's Choice Published Poet Ribbon Award Pin" Can Seidel or even Mole say the same!!! I have a problem regarding it, though: it costs $19.95 plus shipping and handling, and I don't have that kind of money. So I was wondering if everyone at New-Poetry could send me a dollar at 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte FL 33952. I will use the money I get above what is required for the pin to have a photograph of me proudly displaying the pin sent to each person helping me out. Note: this was all the result of my investigating Poetry.com (I believe that's its name) on behalf of one of my blog's visitors who thought I knew what was going on in the poetry world and e.mailed me for my opinion of it. I went to its webpage and read its daily poem. The latter wasn't bad, so I thought the outfit might be genuinely out to help unpublished poets. I wrote what I think is a pretty good poem on the spot and e.mailed it to them. I can't remember what happened to the poem. It may well have been published as one of their daily poems. I definitely got a positive e.mail about it. I do know that the website revealed itself for the standard predator on would-be poets it was by getting all kinds of regular mail about my poem's being published in some anthology or another. And now this. Not totally dishonest, I suppose, and no doubt for some people (one I know from my local writing group) getting a poem into a hardbound book called "The Best Poems of 2005" or something close to that, the book is worth the not super-exorbitant cost ($40 or so). My writing club friend went ahead and bought a copy of such a book and it extremely pleased her--in spite of our gently telling her in advance what a con it was. A benign swindle? Another firend of mine thinks it is. I just don't know. I'm for people's being happy, but against the dishonesty of pretending bad poets (and I've since seen many bad poems at poetry.com) are good. It might make some of the bad poets not take up something they're actually fairly good at instead of writing bad poems. Similarly, maybe if no one bought vanity anthologies, their publishers might be forced to do something of much greater benefit to society. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Wed Dec 13 17:14:18 2006 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:14:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] mezey's borges References: <200612132120.kBDLKx8V011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042EC@HAIL.emerson.edu> anyone have an email or postal address for Mezey? I'd like to try to buy a xerox copy of his Borges ms. thanks -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2331 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Dec 13 17:23:05 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:23:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: mezey's borges In-Reply-To: <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042EC@HAIL.emerson.edu> References: <200612132120.kBDLKx8V011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042EC@HAIL.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <13E346E8-FAF2-4CD7-9581-9B6782D2A17C@ripon.edu> From Poets & Writers-- Robert Mezey 960 E. Bonita Avenue # 28 Pomona, CA 91767 Phone: (909) 624-2206 mezteadancer at aol.com On Dec 13, 2006, at 4:14 PM, William Knott wrote: > > anyone have an email or postal address > for Mezey? I'd like to try to buy > a xerox copy of his Borges ms. > > thanks > > ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Dec 13 18:42:41 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:42:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Poetry Prize References: <387.f9c85f0.32b19272@cs.com><006e01c71eff$786558b0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e201c71f02$a8eeb3c0$bdeb3652@ANNY> Message-ID: <007f01c71f10$8a58ed50$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Oh my God, what a conFRImation Rob _Bob no time to fritter in frivolous frogs I am just about as thrilled as you can be what kind of plea are U addressing me, should we Seidel up a couple of bucks or Mole them down the underground ribbon them on the Upper Eastonian East or award 'em length to the Botsvanian Bess Tess of the d'Urbersville? Hardly awake but still amazed your never_flinching flickering fan /to cool you down :-( Hey, you mocking me?! If you are, cudditout! --the (almost) beribboned one (since, of course, I did get the money required--all of it--from Mrs. Bush--who loves New Poetry, by the way, particularly when I'm calling people names--and sent in for my ribbon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 13 18:49:50 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:49:50 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] My Poetry Prize Message-ID: In a message dated 12/13/2006 3:41:24 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > Ha, forget this talk about who the best American poet is. It's me. I just > got the following confrimation: > > Robert, > > The Editors of The International Library of Poetry were thrilled to inform > you that your poem was bestowed the prestigious Editor's Choice Award because > of your artistic accomplishments and unique perspective--characteristics > found in the most noteworthy poetic works. To further commemorate this > prestigious achievement we have elected you to receive the 2006 Editor's Choice > Published Poet Ribbon Award Pin" > > Can Seidel or even Mole say the same!!! > > > Hey, Bob, one of my students won a $5000 prize from one of these things! Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 13 18:50:25 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:50:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] My Poetry Prize Message-ID: In a message dated 12/13/2006 3:41:24 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > The Editors of The International Library of Poetry were thrilled to inform > you that your poem was bestowed the prestigious Editor's Choice Award because > of your artistic accomplishments and unique perspective--characteristics > found in the most noteworthy poetic works. > > Sounds kind of like the Wizard of Oz, though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 13 18:53:02 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:53:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: mezey's borges Message-ID: To be quite frank, Bob can be very prickly and still has bad feelings about how the Borges estate handled this. If anyone asks him for a copy, please don't mention me! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Wed Dec 13 19:02:09 2006 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:02:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] thanks, David Graham References: <200609281529.k8SFTFoO029490@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042EE@HAIL.emerson.edu> thanks for providing the Mezey info... and I would second your vote for the Transtromer as the year's best. . . but I'd bet that the British edition (is it Bloodaxe?) is preferable in the quality of its production to the New Directions reprint version. . . better paper, crisper typeface, binding, everything. But New Directions is not as bad as FSG: the printing in their paperback of Lowell's "Imitations" looks so muddy and blurry in some parts that it's barely legible. . . the Penguin edition of Heaney's "Poet to Poet" selection from Wordsworth is so blurry and runny in places that the type-face font looks inadvertently italic. . . The novels put out by these same publishers are immaculately printed, of course. They use quality-control procedures for their prose books, but poetry they don't give a fuck. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Dec 13 19:37:14 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:37:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Poetry Prize References: Message-ID: <00be01c71f18$018f8e90$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In a message dated 12/13/2006 3:41:24 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: Ha, forget this talk about who the best American poet is. It's me. I just got the following confrimation: Robert, The Editors of The International Library of Poetry were thrilled to inform you that your poem was bestowed the prestigious Editor's Choice Award because of your artistic accomplishments and unique perspective--characteristics found in the most noteworthy poetic works. To further commemorate this prestigious achievement we have elected you to receive the 2006 Editor's Choice Published Poet Ribbon Award Pin" Can Seidel or even Mole say the same?!! Hey, Bob, one of my students won a $5000 prize from one of these things! Sam That's a surprise to me, Sam--but on reflection, it would make sense for them to let a few people win, a la Vegas. Do you think your student won on merit or via name-out-of-a-hat? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Dec 13 20:17:22 2006 From: elemenope at icubed.com (elemenope at icubed.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:17:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] . Best NonAmerican Poetry (David Graham): Thomas Transtromer In-Reply-To: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com> I met Transtromer. Sat with him on a bench along a wall during a big literary party. He had trouble with "reality" and discussed this issue thoroughly, without letup. I listened, as I have ended up doing with the poets, attentively. He was a man of sweeping insights. I have more to say, but let it wait for another moment. R.D. From screwzbaran at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 20:20:35 2006 From: screwzbaran at gmail.com (Suzanne Baran) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:20:35 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] . Best NonAmerican Poetry (David Graham): Thomas Transtromer In-Reply-To: <1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com> References: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com> Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0612131720r419918e7m8f98d28bd677b503@mail.gmail.com> What kind of sweeping insights? On 12/13/06, elemenope at icubed.com wrote: > > I met Transtromer. Sat with him on a bench along a wall during a big > literary party. He had trouble with "reality" and discussed this issue > thoroughly, without letup. I listened, as I have ended up doing with the > poets, attentively. He was a man of sweeping insights. I have more to > say, but let it wait for another moment. > > R.D. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "It is the gravity of what we do not express that smothers the beauty our hearts disguise, our first great breaths, our unknown perfections, the summons of our most brazen blood, and the tolling of our truest tears." -- J. Ryan Stradal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Dec 13 21:16:30 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:16:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] . Best NonAmerican Poetry (David Graham): ThomasTranstromer References: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com> Message-ID: <00cf01c71f25$e13004a0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Transtromer has a neat name. Other than that, he seems just another mainstreamer to me. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Dec 13 22:00:19 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:00:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Transtromer In-Reply-To: <00cf01c71f25$e13004a0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com> <00cf01c71f25$e13004a0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: What have you read by Transtromer, Bob? On Dec 13, 2006, at 8:16 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Transtromer has a neat name. Other than that, he seems just > another mainstreamer to me. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Dec 13 23:36:24 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:36:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Transtromer encounters In-Reply-To: <1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com> References: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com> Message-ID: <09347DCC-6E17-43DF-A260-7B477FC92C0C@ripon.edu> I met Transtromer once, too--must have been close to 30 years ago. I'm pretty sure I posted the poem I wrote about that encounter at some point. I was thoroughly impressed with the man--was then, am now. If anyone deserves the Nobel Prize. . . . I hear he's been on the short list for a while, and every year I hope to hear his name announced. Sadly, his recent output has been sparse--due I think to the massive stroke he suffered back in 1990. The most recent stuff in the new collected is a haiku sequence from 2004. On Dec 13, 2006, at 7:17 PM, elemenope at icubed.com wrote: > I met Transtromer. Sat with him on a bench along a wall during a big > literary party. He had trouble with "reality" and discussed this > issue > thoroughly, without letup. I listened, as I have ended up doing > with the > poets, attentively. He was a man of sweeping insights. I have > more to > say, but let it wait for another moment. > > R.D. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Dec 14 06:31:23 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:31:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Transtromer References: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu><1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com><00cf01c71f25$e13004a0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001001c71f73$65ee13b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> What have you read by Transtromer, Bob? What makes him not just another mainstreamer, David? Whether he is or not has nothing to do with whether or not I've read anything by him. In fact, simply the fact that you think he's a superior poet makes it impossible for him NOT to be just another mainstreamer. Like Heaney. But I would make that, "just another quite good mainstreamer." I would add that I think it possible that the best American or Americanized (by translation) poet might be a mainstream. But he'd have to be a mainstreamer doing more than the other good mainstreamers, or writing consistently at some higher level. Wilbur would be in the running. He does not seem to me just another mainstreamer. To answer your question, I've only read the sample poem you submitted, and a few other translations that have shown up on the web. If I were doing a critique of his work, I'd read a few more, probably. The opinion I advanced was not intended as some kind of final judgement, just an offhand opinion. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Dec 14 09:31:28 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:31:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer In-Reply-To: <001001c71f73$65ee13b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu><1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com><00cf01c71f25$e13004a0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001001c71f73$65ee13b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification, Bob. It must save a lot of time not to read any of the books one has opinions about. I'll have to try it sometime. On Dec 14, 2006, at 5:31 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > What have you read by Transtromer, Bob? > > What makes him not just another mainstreamer, David? Whether he is > or not has nothing to do with whether or not I've read anything by > him. In fact, simply the fact that you think he's a superior poet > makes it impossible for him NOT to be just another mainstreamer. > Like Heaney. But I would make that, "just another quite good > mainstreamer." > > I would add that I think it possible that the best American or > Americanized (by translation) poet might be a mainstream. But he'd > have to be a mainstreamer doing more than the other good > mainstreamers, or writing consistently at some higher level. > Wilbur would be in the running. He does not seem to me just > another mainstreamer. > > To answer your question, I've only read the sample poem you > submitted, and a few other translations that have shown up on the > web. If I were doing a critique of his work, I'd read a few more, > probably. The opinion I advanced was not intended as some kind of > final judgement, just an offhand opinion. > > --Bob G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Dec 14 09:48:45 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:48:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: thanks, David Graham In-Reply-To: <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042EE@HAIL.emerson.edu> References: <200609281529.k8SFTFoO029490@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042EE@HAIL.emerson.edu> Message-ID: The New Directions Transtromer appears to be very nicely put together, though, both in terms of design and actual mechanics of book production. Disclaimer: I'm far from a design maven, legibility being my main concern. My pet peeve about Collecteds is that I don't like it when they jam 4 poems per page to save space. Since TT's output has been akin to Bishop's, they don't have to do so in this case: plenty of white space here. Robin Fulton's intro is very interesting, in that he quotes extensively from TT's own notes on various poems; I just wish it had been longer, and that they had reprinted more of Transtromer's prose. (There's a brief memoir of Transtromer's school days, from 1993.) Fulton also has very little to say about the challenges of translation itself. And for those who read Swedish, beware: the book is all English. The worst-produced books I ever saw from a major press were from Ecco, back in the day--*lots* of bad bindings, crappy printing (blurred or faint), stuck-together pages, etc. On Dec 13, 2006, at 6:02 PM, William Knott wrote: > thanks for providing the Mezey info... > > and I would second your vote for the > Transtromer as the year's best. . . > but I'd bet that the British edition (is > it Bloodaxe?) is preferable in the > quality of its production to the New Directions > reprint version. . . better paper, > crisper typeface, binding, everything. > > But New Directions is not as bad as FSG: > the printing in their paperback of Lowell's > "Imitations" looks so muddy and blurry > in some parts that it's barely legible. . . > > the Penguin edition of Heaney's "Poet to > Poet" selection from Wordsworth is so blurry > and runny in places that the type-face > font looks inadvertently italic. . . > > The novels put out by these same publishers > are immaculately printed, of course. They > use quality-control procedures for their > prose books, but poetry they don't > give a fuck. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 14 11:09:54 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:09:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <200612141408.kBEE8q8X029253@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <114544.31641.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "I'll have to try it sometime." You mean you haven't, really? I don't think I've ever met a (wo)man of letters who doesn't do it consistently. As a matter of fact, the men of letters do it a fair bit more than the women of letters... Having opinions is fun. If nothing else, it gets people's bonnets in a bunch, or puts bees in their jockstraps, or whatever it is. Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Dec 14 11:19:28 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:19:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer References: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu><1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com><00cf01c71f25$e13004a0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001001c71f73$65ee13b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <003f01c71f9b$a2dec990$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks for the clarification, Bob. It must save a lot of time not to read any of the books one has opinions about. I'll have to try it sometime. Sorry, David, but as an unretired professor, you're not allowed to. P.S., I do read some books I opine about. But why should one not voice an opinion about a poet's work until he's read a full book by him--or ALL his poetry? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkotin at uchicago.edu Thu Dec 14 11:55:36 2006 From: jkotin at uchicago.edu (Joshua Kotin) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:55:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] News from Chicago Review Message-ID: <40566537-55D1-4929-8E7F-1A9963354B74@uchicago.edu> CR has posted some essays from its last issue online --- including Eirik Steinhoff's "The Making of Chicago Review: The Meteoric Years." Please check it out here: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/ orgs/review/ We've also posted photos from the magazine's sixtieth-anniversary party here: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/60thparty/ * * * Please visit CR's sixtieth-anniversary website & our homepage to subscribe for the holidays. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Chicago Review 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago Illinois 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Dec 14 12:11:20 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:11:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer References: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu><1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com><00cf01c71f25$e13004a0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001001c71f73$65ee13b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003f01c71f9b$a2dec990$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004f01c71fa2$e0577720$c82bb750@ANNY> Bob, I liked that poem, and I like Sweden ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer Thanks for the clarification, Bob. It must save a lot of time not to read any of the books one has opinions about. I'll have to try it sometime. Sorry, David, but as an unretired professor, you're not allowed to. P.S., I do read some books I opine about. But why should one not voice an opinion about a poet's work until he's read a full book by him--or ALL his poetry? --Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Dec 14 14:02:38 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:02:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer References: <200612132121.kBDLKx8X011753@wiz.cath.vt.edu><1459.63.164.145.85.1166059042.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com><00cf01c71f25$e13004a0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001001c71f73$65ee13b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003f01c71f9b$a2dec990$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <004f01c71fa2$e0577720$c82bb750@ANNY> Message-ID: <006d01c71fb2$74e394a0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Swedes are okay, Annie, but Sweden? I'll just say that I liked it better when it produced Vikings. As for the poem, I didn't dislike it, just didn't see what it did that many other good mainstream poems don't do. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Dec 14 14:07:14 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:07:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 13 References: <114544.31641.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007201c71fb3$15814970$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > "I'll have to try it > sometime." > > You mean you haven't, really? I don't think I've ever > met a (wo)man of letters who doesn't do it > consistently. As a matter of fact, the men of letters > do it a fair bit more than the women of letters... > Having opinions is fun. If nothing else, it gets > people's bonnets in a bunch, or puts bees in their > jockstraps, or whatever it is. > Amicalement, > Alex > I think David has done it a few times. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that he hasn't perused a single book of visual poems, yet he's expressed more than a few opinions on their being deservedly marginalized. I'll say this, though: his expressed opinions are almost always much more considered than mine. --Bob G. From jkotin at uchicago.edu Thu Dec 14 15:31:22 2006 From: jkotin at uchicago.edu (Joshua Kotin) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:31:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chicago Review / Holiday Offer Message-ID: A holiday offer from Chicago Review --- three gifts for the price of one! Purchase a two-year subscription --- and receive: 1 --- A free book Flood Editions (choices below) OR Kenneth Rexroth's Complete Poems from Copper Canyon Press (supplies very limited) 2 + 3 --- Two one-year subscriptions to distribute as you see fit (as gifts, for yourself . . .) Order via: : http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/subscribe.shtml Order by Sunday to receive the books & CR's latest issue by Christmas. Offer expires on 1/1/7. PLEASE NOTE CHOICES (WITH RECIPIENTS' ADDRESSES) IN THE COMMENTS FIELD AS YOU ORDER. + + + + + Flood books on offer: Elizabeth Arnold's Civilization: http://www.floodeditions.com/new/ arnold_civilization.html Graham Foust's As in Every Deafness: http://www.floodeditions.com/new/ foust.html William Fuller's Watchword: http://www.floodeditions.com/new/ fuller_watchword.html Thomas Meyer's translation of Laozi's Daode Jing: http:// www.floodeditions.com/new/meyer_daodejing.htm + + + + + Also check out the following CR satellites: Sixtieth-anniversary archive: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/ review/60th/index_60th.shtml Sixtieth-anniversary party photo gallery: http:// humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/60thparty/ & read Eirik Steinhoff's account of the magazine's formative years --- linked from our homepage: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/ review/ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Chicago Review 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago Illinois 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.lott at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 17:12:46 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:12:46 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best NonAmerican Poetry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612141412r10d98d7ft2b37c354e4ad4398@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/06, David Graham wrote: > Every year about this time there's a little flutter of discussion about > which were the best books of poems published during the year. > > Well, this year there need be no debate. It's obvious: New Directions has > put out Tomas Transtromer's *The Great Enigma: New Collected Poems*, > translated by Robin Fulton. It puts between two covers all the poems > Transtromer has published in book form to date. Amazon has this listed as being published in October 2003! Can that be right? Regardless, I've added it to my list. I've consistently enjoyed the scattered Transtromer poems I've stumbled across... c From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Dec 14 17:59:03 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:59:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?=E0_chacun_son_gout?= Message-ID: <003101c71fd3$73dd1e20$c82bb750@ANNY> Welcome to American Life in Poetry. For information on permissions and usage, or to download a PDF version of the column, visit www.americanlifeinpoetry.org. ****************************** American Life in Poetry: Column 090 BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE, 2004-2006 Bread Soup: An Old Icelandic Recipe Start with the square heavy loaf steamed a whole day in a hot spring until the coarse rye, sugar, yeast grow dense as a black hole of bread. Let it age and dry a little, then soak the old loaf for a day in warm water flavored with raisins and lemon slices. Boil it until it is thick as molasses. Pour it in a flat white bowl. Ladle a good dollop of whipped cream to melt in its brown belly. This soup is alive as any animal, and the yeast and cream and rye will sing inside you after eating for a long time. Reprinted from "Playing the Black Piano," Milkweed Editions, 2004, by permission of the author. Copyright (c) 2004 by Bill Holm. This weekly column is supported by The Poetry Foundation, The Library of Congress, and the Department of English at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. This column does not accept unsolicited poetry. ****************************** American Life in Poetry provides newspapers and online publications with a free weekly column featuring contemporary American poems. The sole mission of this project is to promote poetry: American Life in Poetry seeks to create a vigorous presence for poetry in our culture. There are no costs for reprinting the columns; we do require that you register your publication here and that the text of the column be reproduced without alteration. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Thu Dec 14 19:07:14 2006 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:07:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer In-Reply-To: <200612141700.kBEH048X001148@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200612141700.kBEH048X001148@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: It doesn't matter whether you've read a whole book. What matters (if you are interested in educating yourself and others about your esthetic predilections) is that you make specific comments about a specific poem. > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:19:28 -0500 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer > > P.S., I do read some books I opine about. But why should one not > voice an opinion about a poet's work until he's read a full book by > him--or ALL his poetry? > > --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Dec 14 20:50:49 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 20:50:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer References: <200612141700.kBEH048X001148@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <00ee01c71feb$73174930$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > It doesn't matter whether you've read a whole book. What matters (if you > are interested in educating yourself and others about your esthetic > predilections) is that you make specific comments about a specific poem. How about a specific question such as the one implied by my post, what's this guy do that's special? --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Dec 14 20:55:19 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:55:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Best NonAmerican Poetry In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0612141412r10d98d7ft2b37c354e4ad4398@mail.gmail.com> References: <9b1b9dab0612141412r10d98d7ft2b37c354e4ad4398@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01E28A1C-237D-49B4-B673-B21C98212006@ripon.edu> Odd. Copyright 2006 for the New Directions edition. There appears to have been a Bloodaxe edition published in the UK, but no date given in the ND for it. Still, it lists Robin Fulton's translations as having a 2006 copyright, so I guess it's just *possible* Amazon made an error! On Dec 14, 2006, at 4:12 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > On 12/13/06, David Graham wrote: >> Every year about this time there's a little flutter of discussion >> about >> which were the best books of poems published during the year. >> >> Well, this year there need be no debate. It's obvious: New >> Directions has >> put out Tomas Transtromer's *The Great Enigma: New Collected Poems*, >> translated by Robin Fulton. It puts between two covers all the poems >> Transtromer has published in book form to date. > > Amazon has this listed as being published in October 2003! Can that be > right? Regardless, I've added it to my list. I've consistently enjoyed > the scattered Transtromer poems I've stumbled across... > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Dec 14 23:19:41 2006 From: elemenope at icubed.com (elemenope at icubed.com) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:19:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] . Best NonAmerican Poetry (Suzanne Baran) (David Graham): Thoma Transtromer In-Reply-To: <200612141408.kBEE8q8X029253@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200612141408.kBEE8q8X029253@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <50114.205.201.10.98.1166156381.squirrel@pop3a.icubed.com> There is a difference between what a man and poet (Mr. Transtromer) said word for word and what he came across as saying or how the force of his expression impressed me. What was unusual, out of the ordinary, was that he was so fulsome and expansive in what was after all a very large cocktail party. He had just giving a major public reading with Bill Merwin, who was standing across the room receiving many friendly inquiries. Transtromer was quite different. It was as if I was encountering someone in another type of setting, maybe a park bench, maybe an insane asylum, and he was just letting me know what was going on in his head at that moment regardless of whatever, whoever, was going on around him. I didn't know at that moment whether to be flattered or to be alarmed. (There was a secondary reason to be alarmed which I will get to in a future post.) I am usually quite sedate at gatherings of this kind, seeing them as professional events. But, there is a sub sub sub type of poet, Transtromer, Corso, who emerge anew in such passages. Today the term is: Living Large. Anyway, Mr. Transtromer covered quite a lot of ground including certain problems he was having with a woman. Remember, in the part of the world he comes from, men and women are still getting involved with each other in the old fashioned way. It was this cross cultural area we were evaluating. RD > Message: 12 > Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:20:35 -0800 > From: "Suzanne Baran" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] . Best NonAmerican Poetry (David Graham): > Thomas Transtromer > > > Message: 15 > Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:36:24 -0600 > From: David Graham > Subject: [New-Poetry] Transtromer encounters > > > I met Transtromer once, too--must have been close to 30 years ago. > I'm pretty sure I posted the poem I wrote about that encounter at > some point. I was thoroughly impressed with the man--was then, am > now. If anyone deserves the Nobel Prize. . . . I hear he's been on > the short list for a while, and every year I hope to hear his name > announced. > > Sadly, his recent output has been sparse--due I think to the massive > stroke he suffered back in 1990. The most recent stuff in the new > collected is a haiku sequence from 2004. > > > > > On Dec 13, 2006, at 7:17 PM, elemenope at icubed.com wrote: > >> I met Transtromer. Sat with him on a bench along a wall during a big >> literary party. He had trouble with "reality" and discussed this >> issue >> thoroughly, without letup. I listened, as I have ended up doing >> with the >> poets, attentively. He was a man of sweeping insights. I have >> more to >> say, but let it wait for another moment. >> >> R.D. >> >> Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:31:23 -0500 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtromer > > What have you read by Transtromer, Bob? > > What makes him not just another mainstreamer, David? Whether he is or > not has nothing to do with whether or not I've read anything by him. In > fact, simply the fact that you think he's a superior poet makes it > impossible for him NOT to be just another mainstreamer. Like Heaney. > But I would make that, "just another quite good mainstreamer." > > I would add that I think it possible that the best American or > Americanized (by translation) poet might be a mainstream. But he'd have > to be a mainstreamer doing more than the other good mainstreamers, or > writing consistently at some higher level. Wilbur would be in the > running. He does not seem to me just another mainstreamer. > > To answer your question, I've only read the sample poem you submitted, > and a few other translations that have shown up on the web. If I were > doing a critique of his work, I'd read a few more, probably. The > opinion I advanced was not intended as some kind of final judgement, > just an offhand opinion. > > --Bob G. > > Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:31:28 -0600 > From: David Graham > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer > T" > > Thanks for the clarification, Bob. It must save a lot of time not to > read any of the books one has opinions about. I'll have to try it > sometime. > > > On Dec 14, 2006, at 5:31 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> What have you read by Transtromer, Bob? >> >> What makes him not just another mainstreamer, David? Whether he is >> or not has nothing to do with whether or not I've read anything by >> him. In fact, simply the fact that you think he's a superior poet >> makes it impossible for him NOT to be just another mainstreamer. >> Like Heaney. But I would make that, "just another quite good >> mainstreamer." >> >> I would add that I think it possible that the best American or >> Americanized (by translation) poet might be a mainstream. But he'd >> have to be a mainstreamer doing more than the other good >> mainstreamers, or writing consistently at some higher level. >> Wilbur would be in the running. He does not seem to me just >> another mainstreamer. >> >> To answer your question, I've only read the sample poem you >> submitted, and a few other translations that have shown up on the >> web. If I were doing a critique of his work, I'd read a few more, >> probably. The opinion I advanced was not intended as some kind of >> final judgement, just an offhand opinion. >> >> --Bob G. >> From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 15 07:18:07 2006 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:18:07 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Best NonAmerican Poetry References: <9b1b9dab0612141412r10d98d7ft2b37c354e4ad4398@mail.gmail.com> <01E28A1C-237D-49B4-B673-B21C98212006@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <005501c72043$152bacf0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> << From: David Graham Odd. Copyright 2006 for the New Directions edition. There appears to have been a Bloodaxe edition published in the UK, but no date given in the ND for it. Still, it lists Robin Fulton's translations as having a 2006 copyright, so I guess it's just *possible* Amazon made an error! >> I've a feeling Robin Fulton's earliest Transtromer translations were first published (in book form) by (now defunct) Lines Review Editions. In the seventies or eighties? I ought to have a copy on my shelves, but much of my books are in the process of migrating to the loft for a time. Just checked Wikipedia, and apparently both Fulton and Transtromer appeared in a 1975 issue of _Second Aeon_, presumably Fulton translating Transtromer, so he'd have been at work on the translations even then. Fulton is one of those writers who somehow never made it, maybe through diffusion of effort. I first came across his work in the sixties, when he was seen as one of the brighter lights among the (then) Younger Scottish Poets. And read -- yuck! -- a translation by him of Dunbar's "Tretis of the Twa Meriit Wemen and the Wedo_. Then he took over as editor of Lines Review for a few years, and that was magic. He was a *great magazine editor. (He never published me there, alas, had to wait till William Montgomerie took over.) Mostly, now, he'd be seen, I'd guess, as a translator from various Scandinavian languages. Way it goes. Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 15 07:24:20 2006 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:24:20 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Best NonAmerican Poetry References: <9b1b9dab0612141412r10d98d7ft2b37c354e4ad4398@mail.gmail.com> <01E28A1C-237D-49B4-B673-B21C98212006@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <006a01c72043$f28e2cd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> More on Fulton and Transtromer ... There are some translations on line here from 1976. Might be more around there, or on the Web generally. http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/issue.asp?id=321 R. Tomas Transtr?mer Along The Radius I The ice-bound river is blazing with sun here is the world's roof silence. I'm sitting on an upturned boat on the bank swallowing the drug of silence spinning gently. II A wheel spreads out endlessly, turns. Here is the centre, almost still. Further out, perceptible movement: the steps in the snow the writing which shuffles along the facades. The rumbling traffic on the highways and the silent traffic of ghosts. And further out: the tragic masks in the head-wind in the whine of speed - further out: the rush where the last words of love evaporate - the drips that creep on the steel wings - profiles that cry out - the suspended head-phones chatter at each other - kamikaze. III The ice-bound river glitters and is silent. The shadows lie deep here and voiceless. My steps here were explosions in the ground which the silence paints over paints over. Translated by Robin Fulton -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available URL: From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Fri Dec 15 08:13:01 2006 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:13:01 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Best NonAmerican Poetry In-Reply-To: <006a01c72043$f28e2cd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> References: <9b1b9dab0612141412r10d98d7ft2b37c354e4ad4398@mail.gmail.com> <01E28A1C-237D-49B4-B673-B21C98212006@ripon.edu> <006a01c72043$f28e2cd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> Message-ID: <1166188381.45829f5d8c21d@webmail.ukonline.net> Coincidentally, I was writing notes on Fulton's translations for a Swedish pal a few days ago. These might not be of much interest to anyone, but they supplement Robin's remarks on the dates: Mi chael It?s hard for me to be objective about Fulton?s translations, I?ve lived with them so long. Evidently I don?t have any big problem with them, I have always supposed that TT is easy to translate, that much of what?s there ought to and does come across effortlessly. It?s interesting to compare Fulton?s 1974 versions - (Penguin Modern European Poets: Haavikko and Transtr?mer), with the 1987 versions (Bloodaxe Transtr?mer Collected). Some of the (tiny) changes seem good, some not, and most indifferent ? the earlier version is a little more rhapsodic, the later version a little more prosaic, reflecting general changes in the character of British poetry over that period ; here?s a couple of specifics I noticed: Ensamhet ? the earlier version titled ?Loneliness? ? which was plain wrong ? the latter version is called ?Alone?. In both translations he uses ?broke free? twice, the first time for l?sgj?rde and the second time for kom loss; I don?t really like that. Alla st?r i k? hos alla. ? That proved difficult. The first version?s ?Everyone is queuing for everyone else? had a muffled impact because ?for? had two meanings that it?s impossible to choose between. The later version ?Everyone is queuing at everyone?s door? does the business: makes us flip instantly from the thought of our expectations to the thought of others? expectations of us. Nocturne - This is a change I don?t understand: ?herrel?sa fordon? ? in the earlier version ?masterless vehicles?, in the later version ?ownerless dogs? ?! Om Historien ? ?Konferenser som flygande ?ar s? n?ra att st?rta. . . / Sedan: en l?ng darrande bro av kompromiser.? Fulton?s first shot was ?so close to tumbling?. His second shot was ?about to crash?. The first is poetic and not violent enough, the second is better in those respects but I think it has another problem: when we say a plane is about to crash we mean it?s gone into a nosedive and in a few seconds it does crash. But I?m sure TT meant that the conferences don?t crash, though they almost ought to, that they produce these insolent miracles of fudge that then lord it over the unborn.. (but in a way I begin to look back nostalgically to the age of conferences...) Quoting Robin Hamilton : > More on Fulton and Transtromer ... > > There are some translations on line here from 1976. Might be more around > there, or on the Web generally. > > http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/issue.asp?id=321 > > R. > > Tomas Transtr?mer > > Along The Radius > > > I > > The ice-bound river is blazing with sun > here is the world's roof > silence. > > I'm sitting on an upturned boat on the bank > swallowing the drug of silence > spinning gently. > > > > II > > A wheel spreads out endlessly, turns. > Here is the centre, almost > still. > > Further out, perceptible movement: the steps in the snow > the writing which shuffles along > the facades. > > The rumbling traffic on the highways > and the silent traffic > of ghosts. > > And further out: the tragic masks in the head-wind > in the whine of speed - further out: > the rush > > where the last words of love evaporate - > the drips that creep > on the steel wings - > > profiles that cry out - the suspended head-phones > chatter at each other - > kamikaze. > > > > III > > The ice-bound river glitters and is silent. > The shadows lie deep here > and voiceless. > > My steps here were explosions in the ground > which the silence paints over > paints over. > > > > > Translated by Robin Fulton > ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 15 08:37:58 2006 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:37:58 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Best NonAmerican Poetry References: <9b1b9dab0612141412r10d98d7ft2b37c354e4ad4398@mail.gmail.com><01E28A1C-237D-49B4-B673-B21C98212006@ripon.edu> <006a01c72043$f28e2cd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> Message-ID: <008c01c7204e$3d59c620$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> More on Fulton and Transtromer ... [continued] Mooching around abebooks to see what's available (some quite cheap this side of the Pond), it looks as if Fulton's translations of Transtromer were brought together by Bloodaxe as the _Collected Poems_ in 1987, and reissued/reprinted as _New Collected Poems_ by them in 2002. 'Nuff. Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 15 08:48:40 2006 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:48:40 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Best NonAmerican Poetry References: <9b1b9dab0612141412r10d98d7ft2b37c354e4ad4398@mail.gmail.com><01E28A1C-237D-49B4-B673-B21C98212006@ripon.edu><006a01c72043$f28e2cd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> <1166188381.45829f5d8c21d@webmail.ukonline.net> Message-ID: <009401c72050$1efbf610$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> OK already, Michael -- I'll get the cheapest of the Bloodaxe 2002 New Collected going from abebooks before someone else (you?) beats me to it! [Incidentally, I should have most of Fulton's original poetry in pamphlet form up till about oh 1975, and a complete run of the issues of Lines Review that he edited. Packed away sort of, but I could dig them out if it were important. Guess they might not be all that generally available. Don't think I still have his translation of Dunbar -- came on that when it won a prize or something in the Poetry Review in the mid-sixties.] Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Best NonAmerican Poetry > > Coincidentally, I was writing notes on Fulton's translations for a Swedish > pal > a few days ago. These might not be of much interest to anyone, but they > supplement Robin's remarks on the dates: > > Mi chael From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Dec 15 09:50:39 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:50:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Transtromer in English In-Reply-To: <008c01c7204e$3d59c620$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> References: <9b1b9dab0612141412r10d98d7ft2b37c354e4ad4398@mail.gmail.com><01E28A1C-237D-49B4-B673-B21C98212006@ripon.edu> <006a01c72043$f28e2cd0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> <008c01c7204e$3d59c620$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> Message-ID: I have on my shelf an edition of TT from Ardis Press from 1981, containing Fulton's translations up to that point. It's a selection, with (for example) only five of the 17 poems from TT's first book included. The new book from New Directions contains, as its final section, a group of poems titled "The Great Enigma," which is dated 2004. So I don't see how this could be the same book Bloodaxe put out in 2002, anyway. TT's been translated often into English, and I like various editions for various reasons. Of books available in the U.S., May Swenson may have been first out of the gate with her *Windows & Stones*, from 1972, though Robert Bly published some TT with his Seventies Press in 1970. (Then in 1975 his *Friends, You Drank Some Darkness* featured TT along with Harry Martinson & Gunnar Ekelof). I grew up on Swenson's & Robert Bly's versions, and later found Fulton, Samuel Charters, and others. I'm very fond of Charters's version of TT's only long poem, *Baltics*, from Oyez Press in 1975. Robert Hass put out a very interesting selection from Ecco (1987), which gathered his favorite translations by various hands. And Bly brought out his collected translations (many done decades before) with Graywolf's *The Half-Finished Heaven* in 2001. If you ever run across it in the used bookshops, grab up the TT tribute issue of the late lamented *Ironwood* magazine (#13, 1979). Worth underlining is that the recent New Directions title appears to be the first time that all of TT's work has been rendered into English in one book. That's one reason I think this is such a big deal; this is a book I've been hankering for for 30 years. Likely to be *the* definitive TT for some time. Another reason is simply that I think Transtromer is a major figure, a peer of poets like Milosz, Heaney, Montale, et al. On Dec 15, 2006, at 7:37 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > More on Fulton and Transtromer ... [continued] > > Mooching around abebooks to see what's available (some quite cheap > this side of the Pond), it looks as if Fulton's translations of > Transtromer were brought together by Bloodaxe as the _Collected > Poems_ in 1987, and reissued/reprinted as _New Collected Poems_ by > them in 2002. > > 'Nuff. > > Robin ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Fri Dec 15 10:15:10 2006 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:15:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Transtromer's History Message-ID: <16C8DCD0-F125-455B-9122-13BF68FDEFA9@ripon.edu> About History I. One day in March I go down to the sea and listen. The ice is as blue as the sky. It is breaking up under the sun. The sun which also whispers in a microphone under the covering of ice. It gurgles and froths. And someone seems to be shaking a sheet far out. It's all like History: our Now. We are submerged, we listen. II. Conferences like flying islands about to crash . . . Then: a long trembling bridge of compromises. There shall the whole traffic go, under the stars, under the unborn pale faces, outcast in the vacant spaces, anonymous as grains of rice. III Goethe traveled in Africa in '26 disguised as Gide and saw everything. Some faces become clearer from everything they see after death. When the daily news from Algeria was read out a large house appeared with all the windows blackened, all except one. And there we saw the face of Dreyfus. IV Radical and Reactionary live together as in an unhappy marriage, molded by one another, dependent on one another. But we who are their children must break loose. Every problem cries in its own language. Go like a bloodhound where the truth has trampled. V. Out on the open ground not far from the buildings an abandoned newspaper has lain for months, full of events. It grows old through nights and days in rain and sun, on the way to becoming a plant, a cabbage head, on the way to being united with the earth. Just as a memory is slowly transmuted into your own self. --Tomas Transtr?mer. Trans. Robin Fulton. The Great Enigma: New Collected Poems. New Directions, 2006. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Fri Dec 15 11:12:43 2006 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:12:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: <200612151452.kBFEqK8W027491@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20061215161244.80614.qmail@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Howdy all-- I thought this was a discussion list but lately from what I have been seeing I am wondering if we are allowed to spam the list telling you about all the magnificent work we publish? Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 15 12:42:12 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:42:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] spam In-Reply-To: <200612151700.kBFH048X030953@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <795408.36777.qm@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dave, Hm. I propose imaginary spam, about all the imaginary works not actually published by an imaginary poet and publisher. How's that? While we're at it. Alex > > Howdy all-- > > I thought this was a discussion list > but lately from what I have been seeing > I am wondering if we are allowed to spam the list > telling you about all the magnificent work we > publish? > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From ccooley at overdomain.com Fri Dec 15 15:53:29 2006 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:53:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=3A_Transtr=F6mer?= In-Reply-To: <200612151452.kBFEqK8X027491@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200612151452.kBFEqK8X027491@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Let's see if we can make this an interesting discussion. Here are the rules: 1. You must think, really think before you say something; 2. As you read these 3 versions of a Transtr?mer poem, you must actually pay attention to your own esthetic reactions; 3. You must report what is your esthetic reaction to a particular word, phrase or image; 4. You must not comment on what is NOT in the poem, only what is in it; 5. You can only voice your own esthetic reaction, and are strictly disallowed from making political comments or any other comments other than A. your own esthetic experience, or B. comments about your own esthetic experience. 6. You are allowed to comment on the variation between translations, knowing, but not caring, that these are not about Transtr?mer, but are about the text actually in the new-po post (the Object of Discussion); 7. these translations are the only object of discussion; 8. The question "What's this guy do that's special?" must be changed subtly to "What is my esthetic reaction to what these translators say this guy does?" 9. In the process of following the rules, your original question will be answered, but not in a way to prove anything, since esthetic discussions never prove anything. Proving something would be breaking rules #2,3,4, and 5. Ready? Here are the texts: [note that the May Swenson translation appears to have an error in line 6] Breathing Room: July Lying on his back under tall trees he is also up there. He rills into thousands of twigs and branches, is swayed back and forth, as if in a catapult seat outflung in slow motion. Standing down by the jetties he squints across the waters. The docks ages sooner than men. Made of splintered silver gray planks, and with stones in their bellies. The blinding light rips its way straight through. Sailing all day in an open boat over the glittering bights, he will fall asleep at last inside a blue lamp while islands like great nocturnal moths creep over the glass. Translation by May Swenson Breathing Space July The man lying on his back under the high trees is up there too. He rills out in thousandfold twigs, sways to and fro, sits in an ejector seat that releases in slow motion. The man down by the jetties narrows his eyes at the water. The jetties grow old more quickly than people. They have silver grey timber and stones in their stomachs. The blinding light beats right in. The man traveling all day in an open boat over the glittering straits Will sleep at last inside a blue lamp while the islands creep like large moths across the glass. Translation by Robert Fulton Breathing Space July The man who lies on his back under huge trees is also up in them. He branches out into thousands of tiny branches. He sways back and forth, he sits in a catapult chair that hurtles forward in slow motion. The man who stands down at the dock screws up his eyes against the water. Docks get older faster than men. They have silver-gray posts and boulders in their gut. The dazzling light drives straight in. The man who spends the whole day in an open boat moving over the luminous bays will fall asleep at last inside the shade of his blue lamp as the islands crawl like huge moths over the globe. Translation by Robert Bly > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 20:50:49 -0500 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer >> It doesn't matter whether you've read a whole book. What matters >> (if you >> are interested in educating yourself and others about your esthetic >> predilections) is that you make specific comments about a >> specific poem. > > How about a specific question such as the one implied by my post, > what's > this guy do that's special? > > --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Dec 15 21:52:34 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:52:34 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Re:_Transtr=F6mer?= References: <200612151452.kBFEqK8X027491@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <004701c720bd$48ca1720$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Let's see if we can make this an interesting discussion. Here are > the rules: 1. You must think, really think before you say something; 2. > As you read these 3 versions of a Transtr?mer poem, you must actually pay > attention to your own esthetic reactions; 3. You must report what is your > esthetic reaction to a particular word, phrase or image; 4. You must not > comment on what is NOT in the poem, only what is in it; 5. You can only > voice your own esthetic reaction, and are strictly disallowed from making > political comments or any other comments other than A. your own esthetic > experience, or B. comments about your own esthetic experience. 6. You > are allowed to comment on the variation between translations, knowing, > but not caring, that these are not about Transtr?mer, but are about the > text actually in the new-po post (the Object of Discussion); 7. these > translations are the only object of discussion; 8. The question "What's > this guy do that's special?" must be changed subtly to "What is my > esthetic reaction to what these translators say this guy does?" I don't get this. I can see the question being changed to "What does this guy, as translated, do that's special," to give his admirers the out that in his own language he does special things, but if we just take the English of his poetry, what he does that's special has nothing to do with aesthetic reactions, but with what's there on the page: some technique that's new, or old but used in a fresh way; some way of looking at the world that's fresh; some subject matter that's fresh; a quantitative complexity greater (objectively) than that of most other poets' work; whatever. 9. In the > process of following the rules, your original question will be answered, > but not in a way to prove anything, since esthetic discussions never > prove anything. Proving something would be breaking rules #2,3,4, and 5. > Ready? I don't see how this will lead to an answer to my question, but tomorrow, if I have time, I'll try it. > Here are the texts: [note that the May Swenson translation appears to > have an error in line 6] > > Breathing Room: July > > Lying on his back under tall trees > he is also up there. He rills into thousands of twigs and branches, > is swayed back and forth, > as if in a catapult seat outflung in slow motion. > > Standing down by the jetties he squints across the waters. > The docks age sooner than men. > Made of splintered silver gray planks, and with stones in their > bellies. > The blinding light rips its way straight through. > > Sailing all day in an open boat > over the glittering bights, > he will fall asleep at last inside a blue lamp > while islands like great nocturnal moths creep over the glass. > > Translation by May Swenson > > Breathing Space July > > The man lying on his back under the high trees > is up there too. He rills out in thousandfold twigs, > sways to and fro, > sits in an ejector seat that releases in slow motion. > > The man down by the jetties narrows his eyes at the water. > The jetties grow old more quickly than people. > They have silver grey timber and stones in their stomachs. > The blinding light beats right in. > > The man traveling all day in an open boat > over the glittering straits > > Will sleep at last inside a blue lamp > while the islands creep like large moths across the glass. > > Translation by Robert Fulton > > Breathing Space July > > The man who lies on his back under huge trees > is also up in them. He branches out into thousands of tiny branches. > He sways back and forth, > he sits in a catapult chair that hurtles forward in slow motion. > > The man who stands down at the dock screws up his eyes against the water. > Docks get older faster than men. > They have silver-gray posts and boulders in their gut. > The dazzling light drives straight in. > > The man who spends the whole day in an open boat > moving over the luminous bays > will fall asleep at last inside the shade of his blue lamp > as the islands crawl like huge moths over the globe. > > Translation by Robert Bly Weird, it's a standard Bly poem, but Bly's translation sucks, compared to the other two. Yeah, I'm not following your rules, but I'll try that tomorrow. My impression is that maybe this guy WAS special, if he was the one who initiated this kind of surrealism (which gets into my poems, too). I think he was not, but he may still be one of the top founders of the school. --Bob G. From chris.lott at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 11:45:17 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:45:17 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: thanks, David Graham In-Reply-To: References: <200609281529.k8SFTFoO029490@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042EE@HAIL.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612160845y28701fcse41a0210b3b17162@mail.gmail.com> On 12/14/06, David Graham wrote: > The New Directions Transtromer appears to be very nicely put together, > though, both in terms of design and actual mechanics of book production. Well, as I'm fortunate enough to be blessed with the gene that allows me to enjoy Transtromer, I'll say thanks for the note as well. Not so sure how thankful I am for the rest of the discussion, but why not-- it's the holidays! c From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Dec 16 12:36:35 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 11:36:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Idle thought Message-ID: Reading a pile of student exams, I came across one that took up the option to review Billy Collins's selected poems. One main complaint he has is. . . are you ready for this? . . . that Collins is too *challenging*: "One of the main reasons I don't like some of his poetry is that he uses a lot of detailed allusions that a reader must be from the 'older generation' or a scholar to understand." Among the many complaints and reservations I've heard about BC, this may be first I've encountered on these grounds. Yet I do think the student has a point, one often side-stepped in reviews complaining about BC's accessibility. He's one of the most *literary* poets I know, and is extremely fond of allusions of all sorts. I wouldn't call Collins difficult, certainly, but it does strike me that in his relentless allusiveness and bookish nature he's pretty different from other accessible poets with whom he's sometimes lumped. Just a thought, while I'm avoiding further grading. . . . ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sat Dec 16 12:40:45 2006 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:40:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Idle thought Message-ID: I remember some reviewer who slammed him a few years back when Collins-bashing was a kind of sport saying that his "just plain guy" diction and stance was a sham becuase you do have to be pretty widely read to get all of Collins's references. I guess my answer to the reviewer and the student would be to ask if it's too much trouble to do a little research if warranted. My bottom line is if the poem pulls me in, I'll make an effort to learn a bit about the subject being alluded to. If the poem doesn't pull me in, who cares? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Dec 16 13:14:02 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:14:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Idle thought References: Message-ID: <004601c7213d$f747d4b0$efd73152@ANNY> Very probably the "who cares" reigns at home by David's student. I can't even believe it that I don't have anything to correct this weekend, except an article. But I just keep on yawning, this might be what is left of me in this moment, a big yawn... ----- Original Message ----- From: AlMaginnes at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Idle thought I remember some reviewer who slammed him a few years back when Collins-bashing was a kind of sport saying that his "just plain guy" diction and stance was a sham becuase you do have to be pretty widely read to get all of Collins's references. I guess my answer to the reviewer and the student would be to ask if it's too much trouble to do a little research if warranted. My bottom line is if the poem pulls me in, I'll make an effort to learn a bit about the subject being alluded to. If the poem doesn't pull me in, who cares? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Dec 16 14:19:46 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:19:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Idle thought References: Message-ID: <004601c72147$2c779ea0$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I hope the student is not an English major. Unless I got it wrong somehow (not entirely improbable), my alma mater (Cal State Northridge) grants degrees in English to students who have never taken a course devoted exclusively to poetry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat Dec 16 14:32:52 2006 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 11:32:52 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: with thanks to Crisman In-Reply-To: <200612161700.kBGH058W019124@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200612161700.kBGH058W019124@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <1F75D8AC-4C7C-4C33-8833-BA6666C9D2DE@verizon.net> The CrisMan wrote: > The question "What's this guy do > that's special?" must be changed subtly to "What is my esthetic > reaction to what these translators say this guy does?" My reaction to this rule: "ah." Muscles unclench. Somebody's got my back. Crismas approacheth, images of Jesus and Rudolph rampant...but what is it these guys do that's special? love to almost-all from a devoted lurker, Barry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Dec 16 14:45:32 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:45:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: thanks, David Graham References: <200609281529.k8SFTFoO029490@wiz.cath.vt.edu><20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042EE@HAIL.emerson.edu> <9b1b9dab0612160845y28701fcse41a0210b3b17162@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005d01c7214a$c203e480$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Well, as I'm fortunate enough to be blessed with the gene that allows > me to enjoy Transtromer, I'll say thanks for the note as well. Not so > sure how thankful I am for the rest of the discussion, but why not-- > it's the holidays! > > c Hey, I have that gene, too, Chris! That I may not like him as much as you, and certainly not as much as David, doesn't mean I can't enjoy his work. For instance, I just finished reading Dashiel Hammett's Red Harvest. The characters are cardboard bad guys and good guys (who seem to have inspired Chester Gould), the plot is preposterous, but I enjoyed it a lot. I think I will never understand this either/or attitude about taste--i.e., you either find nothing to complain about in an artist or you dislike him--that so many poets have. Note to CC--I suddenly have several literary-critical things on my platter, so it may be a while before I can play your game. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Dec 16 15:15:25 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:15:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: with thanks to Crisman References: <200612161700.kBGH058W019124@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <1F75D8AC-4C7C-4C33-8833-BA6666C9D2DE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <006b01c7214e$f3d22630$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > The CrisMan wrote: > >> The question "What's this guy do >> that's special?" must be changed subtly to "What is my esthetic >> reaction to what these translators say this guy does?" > > My reaction to this rule: "ah." Muscles unclench. Somebody's > got my back. Crismas approacheth, images of Jesus and Rudolph > rampant...but what is it these guys do that's special? > > love to almost-all from a devoted lurker, > > Barry I wonder if the Chrisman will challenge you to a game for making an offhand remark (one that reduces to "I agree with you") like the one he's challenged me to for a similarly offhand one (that reduced to "I disagree with you because it doesn't seem to me the guy is doing anything special"). Interestingly, no one has mentioned anything the guy is doing that's special. Anyway, I'm sure dozens have your back on this one, Barry. It's possible that no one has mine. Why do I find that pleasant to think about? Merry Christmas to you, too. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Sat Dec 16 15:44:03 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:44:03 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Idle thought Message-ID: Your student suffers from a common affliction among many in the general public: Any literary/cultural/historical illusion is going to sail right over their heads. He probably has trouble keeping up with the patter of the "Gilmore Girls" and at least that is heavily peppered with allusions to pop culture. I'd say Collins' critics are correct for the most part. That is, among the narrow subset of folks who are likely to go to a poetry reading or to read a book review in the NY Times, for that matter, Collins is not really testing us much with his literary allusions. It's belle-lettres-lite. Still it's nice to feel that one 'gets it' or 'is in on the joke'. And no one has been as successful as Collins in recent years in reaching out to educated reader and coaxing them to wade back into the shallow end of the poetry swimming pool. Finnegan In a message dated 12/16/2006 12:34:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: Reading a pile of student exams, I came across one that took up the option to review Billy Collins's selected poems. One main complaint he has is. . . are you ready for this? . . . that Collins is too *challenging*: "One of the main reasons I don't like some of his poetry is that he uses a lot of detailed allusions that a reader must be from the 'older generation' or a scholar to understand." Among the many complaints and reservations I've heard about BC, this may be first I've encountered on these grounds. Yet I do think the student has a point, one often side-stepped in reviews complaining about BC's accessibility. He's one of the most *literary* poets I know, and is extremely fond of allusions of all sorts. I wouldn't call Collins difficult, certainly, but it does strike me that in his relentless allusiveness and bookish nature he's pretty different from other accessible poets with whom he's sometimes lumped. Just a thought, while I'm avoiding further grading. . . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Dec 16 15:48:50 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:48:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Collins news Message-ID: <339725E7-DE7F-4382-8C16-5BF40EC3C308@ripon.edu> From the same set of student exams: "The greatest award that he received in 2001 was when he was named Poet Laureate where he wrote poetry for the Buckingham Palace. Collins became very popular very fast from all this." ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Dec 16 16:21:31 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:21:31 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins in extremis Message-ID: <413CD083-55D8-4957-BBBB-4E8BB61DE3AE@ripon.edu> Final student exam I'll share with you. Promise! "The way he expresses his ideas seem to say that he had a thought. Then he took it to the extreme and talked about it in his poems." ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Dec 16 16:39:56 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:39:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins in extremis Message-ID: In a message dated 12/16/2006 3:19:35 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > Final student exam I'll share with you. Promise! > > "The way he expresses his ideas seem to say that he had a thought. Then he > took it to the extreme and talked about it in his poems." > "Hyperbole is like when something is kind of overexaggerated, in a way." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Dec 16 17:04:46 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 23:04:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins in extremis References: <413CD083-55D8-4957-BBBB-4E8BB61DE3AE@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <002f01c7215e$32d375f0$efd73152@ANNY> :-) BC seemed to have a thought he took it out for a walk & walk & walk & walk & walk he ended up in the extreme north "my thought," he said when at night at last his poems entered & exhausted as he was "I will talk of you". From: David Graham Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 10:21 PM Final student exam I'll share with you. Promise! "The way he expresses his ideas seem to say that he had a thought. Then he took it to the extreme and talked about it in his poems." ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Dec 16 18:14:45 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 18:14:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins in extremis Message-ID: Lest I sound cynical and depressing, I must admit that in the last year I've had two of my finest students ever. One is an illegal alien and the other is a Pentecostal girl with five-foot-long hair. Go figure. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Sat Dec 16 18:41:33 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (Jason Quackenbush) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:41:33 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Idle thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4584842D.5070906@myuw.net> The word for that sort of thing isn't "challenging" it's "irrelevance." I mean, what's the point of obscure references if all you're going to do with it is write dumb little poems inviting the reader to imagine themselves or the author as some sort of small animal. never mind the fact that he ripped off ted berrigan in the trouble with poetry. David Graham wrote: > Reading a pile of student exams, I came across one that took up the > option to review Billy Collins's selected poems. One main complaint he > has is. . . are you ready for this? . . . that Collins is too > *challenging*: > > "One of the main reasons I don't like some of his poetry is that he uses > a lot of detailed allusions that a reader must be from the 'older > generation' or a scholar to understand." > > Among the many complaints and reservations I've heard about BC, this may > be first I've encountered on these grounds. Yet I do think the student > has a point, one often side-stepped in reviews complaining about BC's > accessibility. He's one of the most *literary* poets I know, and is > extremely fond of allusions of all sorts. > > I wouldn't call Collins difficult, certainly, but it does strike me that > in his relentless allusiveness and bookish nature he's pretty different > from other accessible poets with whom he's sometimes lumped. > > Just a thought, while I'm avoiding further grading. . . . > > > > ========================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > _http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html_ > > Poetry Library: > > _http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html_ > > ========================================== > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From duemer at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 19:08:41 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:08:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins in extremis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Talk about extremists! God bless them both. On 12/16/06, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > Lest I sound cynical and depressing, I must admit that in the last year > I've had two of my finest students ever. One is an illegal alien and the > other is a Pentecostal girl with five-foot-long hair. Go figure. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [chujoe.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Dec 16 20:46:22 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 20:46:22 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Re:_Transtr=F6mer?= References: <200612151452.kBFEqK8X027491@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <009501c7217d$2a5fd2a0$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I unexpectedly have a few moments, so will try your game, CC. > Let's see if we can make this an interesting discussion. Here are > the rules: 1. You must think, really think before you say something; I always think before saying anything, but will try to pause and think some more before saying anything here. My problem is not not thinking but in not having sufficient data to come to an reasonable conclusion. But it isn't really a problem because I'm aware of it. > 2. As you read these 3 versions of a Transtr?mer poem, you must > actually pay attention to your own esthetic reactions; That goes without saying. 3. You must > report what is your esthetic reaction to a particular word, phrase or > image; That doesn't sound easy but I'll try. 4. You must not comment on what is NOT in the poem, only what > is in it; That's poor literary criticism, but what you want here, which is something different. So I'll go along with it. 5. You can only voice your own esthetic reaction, and are > strictly disallowed from making political comments or any other > comments other than A. your own esthetic experience, or B. comments > about your own esthetic experience. I consider it one of my flaws that I almost never voice others' aesthetic reactions, just my own. I almost never bring politics in my engagement with a poem, unless in response to politics in the poem. 6. You are allowed to comment on > the variation between translations, knowing, but not caring, that > these are not about Transtr?mer, but are about the text actually in > the new-po post (the Object of Discussion); Okay. 7. these translations are > the only object of discussion; Right. What I'm doing now is in advance of the discussion. 8. The question "What's this guy do > that's special?" must be changed subtly to "What is my esthetic > reaction to what these translators say this guy does?" I'm not sure I understand this so what I'll do is express my aesthetic reaction to what the translators do (and therefore indicate what they think the guy does). 9. In the > process of following the rules, your original question will be > answered, but not in a way to prove anything, since esthetic > discussions never prove anything. Proving something would be > breaking rules #2,3,4, and 5. Ready? As already stated, I can't see how this will come about, but I'm ready. > Here are the texts: [note that the May Swenson translation appears > to have an error in line 6] > > Breathing Room: July > > Lying on his back under tall trees > he is also up there. He rills into thousands of twigs and branches, I like "rills," a word I don't know. Oh, I do know it, sort of--small valley, I thought, but it's small brook. Anyway, I understood it in the context as airly joining the twigs and branches of the trees. Liquidly, like a brook, I now add, having checked the dictionary. My aesthetic response is--what do you want? just that I like it? Good image for carrying a thinking or a soul into Nature. > is swayed back and forth, > as if in a catapult seat outflung in slow motion. Happy motion, happily imaged. The slow motion increases the pleasure, the serenity. > Standing down by the jetties he squints across the waters. Okay, the person's on a pleasant jaunt in a countryside. That's not an aesthetic reaction but I have to set-up my aesthetic reactions, don't I? Here, I'm not having an aesthetic reaction. The language is humdrum, the scene humdrum. But not unpleasantly in either case. > The docks age sooner than men. (Has to be "age," so I changed it. > Made of splintered silver gray planks, and with stones in their > bellies. > The blinding light rips its way straight through. Nice postcard scene. "The blinding light" I guess is reflection of the water of the lake or ocean. It doesn't dazzle me but I don't mind it. I sort of like the image of the docks aging faster than men. It's an odd remark; therefore it makes one think/feel the aging more, and about the water and weather that causes it. > Sailing all day in an open boat I have no aesthetic response to the words, but the image of sailing all day picks up nicely on the opening image of, in effect, sailing with the twigs and branches. > over the glittering bights, "bights" is an odd word (to me), so effectively freshening here--that is, it makes me feel good aesthetically. And makes up for "glittering," which comes close to annoying me, or giving me aesthetic pain, because a standard poetic word. > he will fall asleep at last inside a blue lamp > while islands like great nocturnal moths creep over the glass. My aesthetic reaction to this is inseparable from what you might call my intellectual reaction. I like the idea of his falling asleep inside the lamp the sky makes around him, but am confused somewhat by the islands, so they cause me some aesthetic discomfort. They suggest he's submerged in a dream like the body of water he's been sailing on. Okay, that works, I guess--he becomes such a part of the water world he's been sailing (as he earlier became a part of the trees overhead) that he enters it. He became a brook up into the twigs and branches, now he's become a lake or sea whose islands move above him. So I find the pay-off aesthetically nice. > Translation by May Swenson > > Breathing Space July > > The man lying on his back under the high trees > is up there too. He rills out in thousandfold twigs, > sways to and fro, > sits in an ejector seat that releases in slow motion. "High" may add a little to the exhiliartion of becoming one with the trees. I'm somewhat unpleasantly jolted by the "ejector seat that releases," which sounds too mechanical to me, so without the happy organic flow that Swenson's version had, due mainly to "outflung." > The man down by the jetties narrows his eyes at the water. I'm confused because in the first version I thought there was only one man in the poem. > The jetties grow old more quickly than people. > They have silver grey timber and stones in their stomachs. > The blinding light beats right in. About the same aesthetic reaction to this text as to Swenson's--with a preference for "grow old more quickly" to "age sooner," which, now that I think more about it, doesn't quite make sense since everything begins to age as soon as born. > The man traveling all day in an open boat > over the glittering straits "traveling" would feel aesthetically neither good nor bad here if I didn't remember "sailing," which is much more exciting, and seems to me to involve the persona more than "traveling." And it brings back the slow motion sail into the trees. > Will sleep at last inside a blue lamp > while the islands creep like large moths across the glass. This again seems enjoyable, but not as viscerally rich as Swenson's version. > Translation by Robert Fulton > > Breathing Space July > > The man who lies on his back under huge trees > is also up in them. He branches out into thousands of tiny branches. > He sways back and forth, > he sits in a catapult chair that hurtles forward in slow motion. This affects me about the way Swenson's version did, except that I like hers, with its "outflung," better. > The man who stands down at the dock screws up his eyes against the > water. > Docks get older faster than men. > They have silver-gray posts and boulders in their gut. > The dazzling light drives straight in. Another confusion--this one about the light, which I thought was up from the water, driving straight in. So a different image, and okay, I guess. > The man who spends the whole day in an open boat > moving over the luminous bays > will fall asleep at last inside the shade of his blue lamp > as the islands crawl like huge moths over the globe. Again, I miss the sailing. And now I envision three men, and realize three men were in the second version. Or "the man" at three times in his life. All three versions are a bit confusing in this respect--the first because the persona could not have spent all day sailing if he lay under the trees at one point. I have trouble connecting the dock scene with the other two unless it's one man going from lying under the trees to the dock, then to his sailboat. That is, the first and last stanzas lead to some oceanic experience that seem, for me, to fuse; the second does not. This time around Bly's rendition doesn't suck, for me. But his final stanza seems to state a generality I can't believe in and so can't sympathize with enough to experience much aesthetic delight. Swenson's man is an individual whom I can feel might experience sailing the way the poem's man does. Her version flows, the others don't. Oh, and Bly has the man inside the lampshade, not inside the lamp, which is much more logical than the other two versions, but cost it the deep mystery the others have. In all versions a man or men are flowing through the world while the world flows through them. A fine expression of serenity. > Translation by Robert Bly End of my attempt to play your game, CC. I don't feel I was doing anything I don't always do when reading a poem knowing I will be more or less explicating it--so I probably didn't play the game right. One note: I find that I don't, perhaps can't, think harder than usual. What I do is think and express my thought, then return a rethink it, and--if necessary--re-express it. I didn't do much of that this time. I don't feel I had to think really hard to get into the poem--mainly because surrealism and oneness with Nature, etc., are common in the poetry I've been most involved with over the years. I didn't learn what the guy is doing that's special--really special. So that part of the experiment was a failure. Now, why don't you play your game, CC? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.lott at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 23:11:31 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:11:31 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: thanks, David Graham In-Reply-To: <005d01c7214a$c203e480$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <200609281529.k8SFTFoO029490@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042EE@HAIL.emerson.edu> <9b1b9dab0612160845y28701fcse41a0210b3b17162@mail.gmail.com> <005d01c7214a$c203e480$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612162011r2748f514v6373ae8cd12c9ad8@mail.gmail.com> On 12/16/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > Hey, I have that gene, too, Chris! That I may not like him as much as you, > and certainly not as much as David, doesn't mean I can't enjoy his work. > For instance, I just finished reading Dashiel Hammett's Red Harvest. The > characters are cardboard bad guys and good guys (who seem to have inspired > Chester Gould), the plot is preposterous, but I enjoyed it a lot. I think I > will never understand this either/or attitude about taste--i.e., you either > find nothing to complain about in an artist or you dislike him--that so many > poets have. I don't understand that binary attitude either... the preponderance of my affection lies on the opposite gulf from your own, but I feel the same way about any number of post-avant/etc poets and the feelings of their admirers. It's too often an all or nothing game on either side. My reading of Transtromer has been very scattered, so I wouldn't even attempt any kind of generalization. I look forward to spending some time with the collection... c From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Dec 17 03:48:45 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:48:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac Message-ID: <006901c721b8$29c342b0$b3ee3652@ANNY> Poem: "Chocolates" by Louis Simpson from The Owner of the House: New Collected Poems 1940-2001. ? BOA Editions. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) Chocolates Once some people were visiting Chekhov. While they made remarks about his genius the Master fidgeted. Finally he said, "Do you like chocolates?" They were astonished, and silent. He repeated the question, whereupon one lady plucked up her courage and murmured shyly, "Yes." "Tell me," he said, leaning forward, light glinting from his spectacles, "what kind? The light, sweet chocolate or the dark, bitter kind?" The conversation became general They spoke of cherry centers, of almonds and Brazil nuts. Losing their inhibitions they interrupted one another. For people may not know what they think about politics in the Balkans, or the vexed question of men and women, but everyone has a definite opinion about the flavor of shredded coconut. Finally someone spoke of chocolates filled with liqueur, and everyone, even the author of Uncle Vanya, was at a loss for words. As they were leaving he stood by the door and took their hands. In the coach returning to Petersburg they agreed that it had been a most unusual conversation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sun Dec 17 08:11:20 2006 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 08:11:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins in extremis Message-ID: <308.7270c23b.32b69bf8@aol.com> In a message dated 12/16/2006 4:40:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: Final student exam I'll share with you. Promise! "The way he expresses his ideas seem to say that he had a thought. Then he took it to the extreme and talked about it in his poems." "Hyperbole is like when something is kind of overexaggerated, in a way." I want to write poems for Buckingham Palace! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Sun Dec 17 10:11:41 2006 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 10:11:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets and Chekhov References: <200612170829.kBH8TU8V032123@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042F1@HAIL.emerson.edu> When poets start to break under the torrent of hatred society pours upon them, when they begin to loathe poetry and themselves as poets, when they snatch the whip from Master and lash themselves, that is the point they write about Chekhov. As it were a final humiliation. * From: "Anny Ballardini" Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac To: "New Poetry" Message-ID: <006901c721b8$29c342b0$b3ee3652 at ANNY> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Poem: "Chocolates" by Louis Simpson from The Owner of the House: New Collected Poems 1940-2001. ? BOA Editions. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) Chocolates Once some people were visiting Chekhov. While they made remarks about his genius the Master fidgeted. Finally he said, "Do you like chocolates?" They were astonished, and silent. He repeated the question, whereupon one lady plucked up her courage and murmured shyly, "Yes." "Tell me," he said, leaning forward, light glinting from his spectacles, "what kind? The light, sweet chocolate or the dark, bitter kind?" The conversation became general They spoke of cherry centers, of almonds and Brazil nuts. Losing their inhibitions they interrupted one another. For people may not know what they think about politics in the Balkans, or the vexed question of men and women, but everyone has a definite opinion about the flavor of shredded coconut. Finally someone spoke of chocolates filled with liqueur, and everyone, even the author of Uncle Vanya, was at a loss for words. As they were leaving he stood by the door and took their hands. In the coach returning to Petersburg they agreed that it had been a most unusual conversation. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3630 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Dec 17 12:19:33 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:19:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iliad of Homerina Message-ID: _http://www.slate.com/id/2155360_ (http://www.slate.com/id/2155360) Was Troy real?and was the author of The Iliad a woman? By Emily Wilson Posted Tuesday, Dec. 12, 2006, at 12:18 PM ET Historicism, in various new and not-so-new guises, dominates most contemporary academic literature departments. It has become something close to heresy to suggest that any literary work could be studied without close reference to the specific place, time, and culture in which it was produced. Literature does not express timeless truths about human nature?or, at least, you would sound like a simpleton if you said so at an academic conference. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Dec 17 12:22:58 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:22:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iliad of Homerina Message-ID: <589.61d405b.32b6d6f2@cs.com> In a message dated 12/17/2006 11:20:16 AM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > http://www.slate.com/id/2155360 > > Was Troy real?and was the author of The Iliad a woman? > The Victorian novelist and translator Samuel Butler thought the same thing about The Odyssey. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Dec 17 12:29:28 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:29:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] poets and Chekhov Message-ID: In a message dated 12/17/2006 10:12:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, William_Knott at emerson.edu writes: When poets start to break under the torrent of hatred society pours upon them, when they begin to loathe poetry and themselves as poets, when they snatch the whip from Master and lash themselves, that is the point they write about Chekhov. As it were a final humiliation. Are you saying that when someone puts a gun on the stage, then a poet must shoot himself in the final act? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Dec 17 12:55:03 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:55:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iliad of Homerina References: <589.61d405b.32b6d6f2@cs.com> Message-ID: <008301c72204$7a950ab0$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> As did Graves, didn't he? The daughters of Homer? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Iliad of Homerina In a message dated 12/17/2006 11:20:16 AM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: http://www.slate.com/id/2155360 Was Troy real?and was the author of The Iliad a woman? The Victorian novelist and translator Samuel Butler thought the same thing about The Odyssey. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Dec 17 12:55:11 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:55:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins in extremis Message-ID: In a message dated 12/16/2006 4:19:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: "The way he expresses his ideas seem to say that he had a thought. Then he took it to the extreme and talked about it in his poems." You should send some of these excerpts to Billy Collins...I'm sure he could make a very funny poem out of them. David Clewell once wrote an amusing poem about reading a student's marginalia penned in copy of book of poems by William Kloefkorn (sp?). Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Dec 17 13:07:27 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:07:27 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets and Chekhov References: <200612170829.kBH8TU8V032123@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055945042F1@HAIL.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <002701c72206$367f5090$7edf3052@ANNY> This is toooo much, indeed, this list is becoming my most cherished place to have a sincere laugh, thanks to all, Anny P.S. I anyhow liked this poem because it reminded me of my morning dream, someone gave me a chunk of chocolate, it was bigger than my hand that received it, sort of multi-pyramidal, and I think I started eating it, or imagined its taste, it was crunchy and fresh like an ice-cream and inside there was a most delicious and soft cream. And besides that Petersburg is a word that acts on me in a way similar to the Mississippi River, I just close my eyes to the rest and imagine what is not there; a similar analogy could be the most senseless movies I have watched from the beginning till the end just because they were shot in New York. _end of rumbling_ From: "William Knott" Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 4:11 PM When poets start to break under the torrent of hatred society pours upon them, when they begin to loathe poetry and themselves as poets, when they snatch the whip from Master and lash themselves, that is the point they write about Chekhov. As it were a final humiliation. * From: "Anny Ballardini" Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac To: "New Poetry" Message-ID: <006901c721b8$29c342b0$b3ee3652 at ANNY> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Poem: "Chocolates" by Louis Simpson from The Owner of the House: New Collected Poems 1940-2001. ? BOA Editions. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) Chocolates Once some people were visiting Chekhov. While they made remarks about his genius the Master fidgeted. Finally he said, "Do you like chocolates?" They were astonished, and silent. He repeated the question, whereupon one lady plucked up her courage and murmured shyly, "Yes." "Tell me," he said, leaning forward, light glinting from his spectacles, "what kind? The light, sweet chocolate or the dark, bitter kind?" The conversation became general They spoke of cherry centers, of almonds and Brazil nuts. Losing their inhibitions they interrupted one another. For people may not know what they think about politics in the Balkans, or the vexed question of men and women, but everyone has a definite opinion about the flavor of shredded coconut. Finally someone spoke of chocolates filled with liqueur, and everyone, even the author of Uncle Vanya, was at a loss for words. As they were leaving he stood by the door and took their hands. In the coach returning to Petersburg they agreed that it had been a most unusual conversation. > From JforJames at aol.com Sun Dec 17 13:07:38 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:07:38 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] A new Aeneid Message-ID: _http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/books/review/Leithauser.t.html?_r=1&ref=boo ks&oref=slogin_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/books/review/Leithauser.t.html?_r=1&ref=books&oref=slogin) By BRAD LEITHAUSER Published: December 17, 2006 There?s a moment in Virgil?s ?Aeneid? when the Trojan forces are massed like ?a cloudburst wiping out the sun, sweeping over the seas toward land.? It? s an image that evokes another army, likewise intimidating, although this one? s composed chiefly of sedentary men, white-haired and bespectacled. Their numbers, too, are unreckonable ? those squadrons of scholars who have, over the centuries, translated the ?Aeneid.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Dec 17 13:57:05 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:57:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets and Chekhov References: Message-ID: <009201c7220d$2572fac0$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> THE FINAL ACT Are you saying that when someone puts a gun on the stage, then a poet must shoot himself in the final act? Finnegan The doctor observes the gun pearl grey Smith and Wesson sighs with heavy foreknowledge the baker smooths his hands along his apron still leaves flour prints on it as he passes it the landscape architect sets it down then picks it up he mutters about gophers but his mind is on his mistress still in bed she has her own gun she's the poet's mother and she wakes up damp and cold wondering why she was dreaming about him and why his hands are moist too Tad Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets and Chekhov In a message dated 12/17/2006 10:12:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, William_Knott at emerson.edu writes: When poets start to break under the torrent of hatred society pours upon them, when they begin to loathe poetry and themselves as poets, when they snatch the whip from Master and lash themselves, that is the point they write about Chekhov. As it were a final humiliation. Are you saying that when someone puts a gun on the stage, then a poet must shoot himself in the final act? Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Dec 17 14:03:52 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 20:03:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chicago Review Message-ID: <005d01c7220e$17dceeb0$7edf3052@ANNY> This via Wood s lot: Sixtieth-Anniversary Constellation, a "selective biography" of the Chicago Review. If you click on the 1980-1990 segment, you can locate Tom Beckett's "Volumes." An excellent Work of Art. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Dec 17 19:07:27 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:07:27 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Hall profiled Message-ID: _http://www.sptimes.com/2006/12/17/news_pf/Perspective/The_poet_.shtml_ (http://www.sptimes.com/2006/12/17/news_pf/Perspective/The_poet_.shtml) at this year's National Book Awards banquet, Rich told the audience that poetry is often seen as "inadequate or unprofitable and hence useless." She went on: "Either way, poets are advised to hang our heads or fold our tents. Yet, in fact, throughout the world transfusions of poetic language can and do quite literally keep bodies and souls together." The argument about whether poetry matters in the modern world, and how it matters, is an old one. In a 1989 essay for Harper's, Hall recounted - and discounted - the parade down the decades of critical laments proclaiming the death of poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Dec 17 19:55:59 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:55:59 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20Re:=20Transtr=F6mer?= Message-ID: Espresso Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. It is a precious sip we interrupt filled with the same strength as Yes and No. It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens and looks into the sun without blinking. In daylight a dot of wholesome black quickly drained by the wan patrons? Like those black drops of profundity sometimes absorbed by the soul that give us a healthy push: Go! The courage to open our eyes. --Tomas Transtr?mer (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suelin7184 at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 09:23:24 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:23:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Congrats! Message-ID: <001701c722b0$14cebcb0$0201a8c0@LindaSue> I'd just like to take this opportunity to congratulate everyone for being selected as Time's "Person of the Year" ... http://www.time.com/time/ Blessings, Linda Sue Grimes Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Dec 18 09:35:26 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:35:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Congrats! In-Reply-To: <001701c722b0$14cebcb0$0201a8c0@LindaSue> References: <001701c722b0$14cebcb0$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2006, at 8:23 AM, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: > I'd just like to take this opportunity to congratulate everyone for > being selected as Time's "Person of the Year" ... http:// > www.time.com/time/ > > Blessings, > Linda Sue Grimes > Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com > _____________________________________ Well, it's about time I took my rightful place on the throne. . . . Here's an old one of mine. After Reading In A News Magazine About The Year's Most Fascinating People, I Fall Into a Pleasant Slumber President, supermodel, Nobel laureate and I all sit on the bed and kick our socks off, nudging them onto the rug as we collapse against the pillows with book or magazine. Tomorrow is time enough to pick up crumpled laundry. We're important! And besides, we're all tired from smiling into the relentless hot lights with our own luminosity, managing the free world economy, thinking the thoughts that will mark our age as so peculiar, so American in its paradoxes, its bumptious glory. Famous to the air, we lie awaiting blessed sleep, enduring our twinges of muscle and spirit, afraid despite it all that one day we will dissolve like fog before the morning sun, leaving nothing behind but our cool marble names to erode and suffer the smut of time. But in these dark moments we have no idea how wise and good we are in the kinship of night, how lovely. A grim drizzle like distant applause on our solid roofs, our eyes quick with second thoughts as we cross midnight's border, all our power, beauty, and intelligence worth exactly as much as the heart's trusty backbeat, the lungs' regular inspiration, the heat we give and take to our beds, and our bedmates. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Mon Dec 18 09:49:32 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:49:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Congrats! References: <001701c722b0$14cebcb0$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Message-ID: <005601c722b3$bb38ca20$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Good one. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 9:35 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Congrats! On Dec 18, 2006, at 8:23 AM, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: I'd just like to take this opportunity to congratulate everyone for being selected as Time's "Person of the Year" ... http://www.time.com/time/ Blessings, Linda Sue Grimes Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com _____________________________________ Well, it's about time I took my rightful place on the throne. . . . Here's an old one of mine. After Reading In A News Magazine About The Year's Most Fascinating People, I Fall Into a Pleasant Slumber President, supermodel, Nobel laureate and I all sit on the bed and kick our socks off, nudging them onto the rug as we collapse against the pillows with book or magazine. Tomorrow is time enough to pick up crumpled laundry. We're important! And besides, we're all tired from smiling into the relentless hot lights with our own luminosity, managing the free world economy, thinking the thoughts that will mark our age as so peculiar, so American in its paradoxes, its bumptious glory. Famous to the air, we lie awaiting blessed sleep, enduring our twinges of muscle and spirit, afraid despite it all that one day we will dissolve like fog before the morning sun, leaving nothing behind but our cool marble names to erode and suffer the smut of time. But in these dark moments we have no idea how wise and good we are in the kinship of night, how lovely. A grim drizzle like distant applause on our solid roofs, our eyes quick with second thoughts as we cross midnight's border, all our power, beauty, and intelligence worth exactly as much as the heart's trusty backbeat, the lungs' regular inspiration, the heat we give and take to our beds, and our bedmates. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Mon Dec 18 10:29:15 2006 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 10:29:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Congrats! In-Reply-To: References: <001701c722b0$14cebcb0$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Message-ID: <8C8F0D06972DEB9-16CC-5F1@mblk-r27.sysops.aol.com> Despite my new found fame, I intend to strive to remain humble. -----Original Message----- From: grahamd at ripon.edu Sent: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 9:35 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Congrats! On Dec 18, 2006, at 8:23 AM, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: I'd just like to take this opportunity to congratulate everyone for being selected as Time's "Person of the Year" ... http://www.time.com/time/ Blessings, Linda Sue Grimes Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com _____________________________________ Well, it's about time I took my rightful place on the throne. . . . Here's an old one of mine. After Reading In A News Magazine About The Year's Most Fascinating People, I Fall Into a Pleasant Slumber President, supermodel, Nobel laureate and I all sit on the bed and kick our socks off, nudging them onto the rug as we collapse against the pillows with book or magazine. Tomorrow is time enough to pick up crumpled laundry. We're important! And besides, we're all tired from smiling into the relentless hot lights with our own luminosity, managing the free world economy, thinking the thoughts that will mark our age as so peculiar, so American in its paradoxes, its bumptious glory. Famous to the air, we lie awaiting blessed sleep, enduring our twinges of muscle and spirit, afraid despite it all that one day we will dissolve like fog before the morning sun, leaving nothing behind but our cool marble names to erode and suffer the smut of time. But in these dark moments we have no idea how wise and good we are in the kinship of night, how lovely. A grim drizzle like distant applause on our solid roofs, our eyes quick with second thoughts as we cross midnight's border, all our power, beauty, and intelligence worth exactly as much as the heart's trusty backbeat, the lungs' regular inspiration, the heat we give and take to our beds, and our bedmates. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsillima at yahoo.com Mon Dec 18 12:03:01 2006 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:03:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog (cutting up) Message-ID: <190511.40167.qm@web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS A history of cut-ups How tell a story in an American movie? Dying with The Dying Gaul The poetics of Alice Notley John Ashbery deserves the National Medal of the Arts Of Jena Osman, Rachel Blau DuPlessis and writing networks, as such The secret life of Kevin Killian on Amazon.com The role of influence -- Looking at Ben Lerner?s Angle of Yaw Of kari edwards (against pronouns) Representing San Francisco to Italian readers Ken & Ann Mikolowski?s Alternative Press ends a run of annuals after more than 30 years Country Girl by Hannah Weiner The uses of multiplicity and layering (Frank Film, by Frank and Caroline Mouris) and the Ubuweb Film Archive Notes on painting and more The Da Vinci Code as film being faithful to the book breaking faith with the audience http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 18 12:10:41 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:10:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iliad of Homerina Message-ID: In a message dated 12/17/2006 12:23:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: _http://www.slate.com/id/2155360_ (http://www.slate.com/id/2155360) Was Troy real?and was the author of The Iliad a woman? The Victorian novelist and translator Samuel Butler thought the same thing about The Odyssey It did seem to me in reading The Odyssey that there was excessive attention to the life styles of rich and powerful. (Not that this is strictly of femine interest). Usually the first thing Homer seems to versify about when Odysseus lands somewhere and is taken in is how well the hero is bathed, oiled and dressed, what 'the good things that are laid at hand' to eat, the copious bowls of wine passed around in front of the hearth, etc. Elements of hospitality and the ability to provide creature comforts are important markers in the narrative. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 18 12:39:18 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:39:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iliad of Homerina Message-ID: In a message dated 12/18/2006 11:11:16 AM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Elements of hospitality and the ability to provide creature comforts are > important markers in the narrative. > True, and the Cyclops episode is about the absence of these things. Of course, the whole story is about hospitality and how the suitors have broken the rules by taking advantage of Odysseus's absence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Dec 18 13:41:04 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:41:04 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iliad of Homerina References: Message-ID: <003c01c722d4$139ebdd0$078d3052@ANNY> How interesting, I think you are right, and from what I can remember of what I thought when I was 15 there is also great attention to the beauty of heroes, and heroines, who can remember Nausicaa? The purest character I have in me. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Iliad of Homerina In a message dated 12/17/2006 12:23:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: http://www.slate.com/id/2155360 Was Troy real?and was the author of The Iliad a woman? The Victorian novelist and translator Samuel Butler thought the same thing about The Odyssey It did seem to me in reading The Odyssey that there was excessive attention to the life styles of rich and powerful. (Not that this is strictly of femine interest). Usually the first thing Homer seems to versify about when Odysseus lands somewhere and is taken in is how well the hero is bathed, oiled and dressed, what 'the good things that are laid at hand' to eat, the copious bowls of wine passed around in front of the hearth, etc. Elements of hospitality and the ability to provide creature comforts are important markers in the narrative. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 18 14:30:43 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:30:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] blunders In-Reply-To: <200612181700.kBIH048X005525@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <612047.89795.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That latest Transtromer, "Espresso" was sure a heck of a lot more interesting than the other one, or at least I thought so. Thanks. Maybe I'll check him out. As for what he does that nobody else does? Dunno, but I liked it better. Those student blunders are lovely, yes: Found poems, truly. Someone should do a book of em one of these days.... Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Dec 18 14:51:05 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:51:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] How can Message-ID: <008501c722dd$db209190$078d3052@ANNY> you be proud of someone you do not know? Here is Geof Huth: http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2006/12/mss-137-paper-and-other-papers.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 15:00:56 2006 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:00:56 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iliad of Homerina In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: and yet you could spin it both ways. In my schoolboy version of history, I seem to recall the Spartans used to prepare themselves for battle in ways that may seem excessive to us - grooming themselves for their lover, death. The nearest modern parallel might be the French paras at Dien Bien Phu who used to shave before battle - I've read that the VC used to be able to smell their enemy. Should we apply our standards to those of a distant time and place? Still, if historicism is to be used, I think external corroborating evidence should be made available to support whatever hypothesis is advanced. Roger On 12/18/06, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 12/17/2006 12:23:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > > http://www.slate.com/id/2155360 > > Was Troy real?and was the author of The Iliad a woman? > > The Victorian novelist and translator Samuel Butler thought the same thing > about The Odyssey > > It did seem to me in reading The Odyssey that there was excessive attention > to the life styles of rich and powerful. (Not that this is strictly of > femine interest). Usually the first thing Homer seems to versify about when > Odysseus lands somewhere and is taken in > is how well the hero is bathed, oiled and dressed, what 'the good things > that are laid at hand' > to eat, the copious bowls of wine passed around in front of the hearth, etc. > Elements of hospitality and the ability to provide creature comforts are > important markers in the narrative. > Finnegan > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland!" From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Dec 18 15:05:42 2006 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:05:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] blunders Message-ID: I put a copy of "Espresso" up over the coffee pots at work. So far no one has said anything. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Dec 18 16:00:10 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:00:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] How can References: <008501c722dd$db209190$078d3052@ANNY> Message-ID: <008501c722e7$894d4200$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> you be proud of someone you do not know? Here is Geof Huth: http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2006/12/mss-137-paper-and-other-papers.html You mean me, right, Anny--me, whom Huth mentions as the literary correspondent he has the most letters from. I think his donation neat but am bothered by the fact that he has given it to the university, which will eventually make lots of money off it, and which is not giving living poets anything that I know of. I've decided not to donate my own archive of such stuff. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Dec 18 16:15:35 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 22:15:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] How can References: <008501c722dd$db209190$078d3052@ANNY> <008501c722e7$894d4200$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00c801c722e9$a91ea270$078d3052@ANNY> well, I meant me i.e. Anny but happy you are as well, ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 10:00 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] How can you be proud of someone you do not know? Here is Geof Huth: http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2006/12/mss-137-paper-and-other-papers.html You mean me, right, Anny--me, whom Huth mentions as the literary correspondent he has the most letters from. I think his donation neat but am bothered by the fact that he has given it to the university, which will eventually make lots of money off it, and which is not giving living poets anything that I know of. I've decided not to donate my own archive of such stuff. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 18 17:27:58 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:27:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay Message-ID: I like what Linda Gregg is doing in this article...shifting the question of writing poems away from craft, the use of poetic language, etc. and trying to articulate the ways in which poems are made by training ourselves to apprehend fully the world around us... Finnegan _http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/19260_ (http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/19260) # _Ezra Pound_ (http://www.poets.org/epoun) defined craft as "the means for delivering the content of the poem and to deliver it alive." However, there is always a danger in making the craft the thing to be delivered. The poet must have craft, but he/she must also locate the substance, the art within the poem, which is at the center of the best poetry, and is upon what the craft works. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Dec 18 18:33:26 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:33:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay References: Message-ID: <00b301c722fc$f5dc58b0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I like what Linda Gregg is doing in this article...shifting the question of writing poems away from craft, the use of poetic language, etc.and trying to articulate the ways in which poems are made by training ourselves to apprehend fully the world around us... Can't help but take this opportunity to say, with a nod to Prof. Graham, that I'm ready to write off Gregg's article as crap without even reading it, James. But I'll read it. It may give me something to slam in my blog entry for tomorrow. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Dec 19 07:39:09 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:39:09 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Buffalo Message-ID: <008e01c7236a$ae7be850$49ad3452@ANNY> the christmas d something odd and horrible and fun for all of you.... the christmas disaster generator http://www.secrettechnology.com/xmas/badchristmas.html share these terrible stories with all and eveyone Jason Nelson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Dec 19 08:44:23 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:44:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay Message-ID: In a message dated 12/18/2006 6:33:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: Can't help but take this opportunity to say, with a nod to Prof. Graham, that I'm ready to write off Gregg's article as crap without even reading it, James. But I'll read it. It may give me something to slam in my blog entry for tomorrow. Bob, I think you'll like it...it's partly advocating using our visual senses more fully, with deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture. Something that a vizpo poet couldn't too strenously disagree with. Here thesis, I think, is that the 'poetic' doesn't come from language and thus shouldn't start there; the poetic is resident in world around us and that's should be where we should first turn to find the poem. We then convert the elements we find in the world into the verbal images and diction that will convey them to reader. If you start in language you'll end up with more hollow poem. FYI...This may be my last post for next 10 days. I know you'll miss me. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 09:06:07 2006 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 09:06:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/19/06, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > Bob, I think you'll like it...it's partly advocating using our visual > senses more fully, > with deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture. Something that a vizpo poet > couldn't too strenously disagree with. > I haven't read the essay yet, so I won't comment more fully. I just wanted to respond to what Jim said. The only problem I have with this thesis is that it comes across as "fuzzy hippy talk" for lack of a better phrase-- its easy to agree with. In fact agreement is ubiquitous. I mean for heaven's sake what poet is going to disagree with this? Its too general. Of course we all advocate "using our visual senses more fully, with deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture", and finding what is inside the poem! Everyone is going to nod their head in reverent agreement and ignore the fact that it doesn't actually say much. How many poets honestly sit down to write and think "Yo! I think I will write something today that doesn't deliver the content of the poem and while we're at it, I'll deliver it dead! Muwwaaahh!" And please don't tell me that this is what language poets aim to do-- they don't. Their content might be the nuances and music of language, but that is still content. It might *seem* to you that a poet you dislike is doing that, but realistically speaking that probably isn't true. The real issue is what *is* inside the poem-- and you really can only address that by looking at actual poems and taking them on their own terms. How the poem succeeds or fails at its goal is never going to be summed up as just one thing. There just isn't any crafty technique that is going to help you. Back when I taught it was always a challenge to get my students to go beyond the subjective. I really had to train them in the art of the "I" statement when critiquing a poem. "This is very alive and beautiful. There is really something inside this poem" doesn't actually say very much that is useful because it begs the question "Yeah... and...this means what?" "Alive" and "beautiful" means one thing to one person and something completely different to another. And "Oh, there is nothing real inside this!" wafted out without anything more substantial to back it up sounds to me like an easy way to dismiss something just because you don't particulary like or "get" it. My two bits, Suzanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 09:09:31 2006 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Collins news In-Reply-To: <339725E7-DE7F-4382-8C16-5BF40EC3C308@ripon.edu> References: <339725E7-DE7F-4382-8C16-5BF40EC3C308@ripon.edu> Message-ID: I'm sure teh queenie was entranced. On 12/16/06, David Graham wrote: > From the same set of student exams: > > > "The greatest award that he received in 2001 was when he was named Poet > Laureate where he wrote poetry for the Buckingham Palace. Collins became > very popular very fast from all this." > > > > > > > ========================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland!" From tad at opus40.org Tue Dec 19 09:44:11 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 09:44:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay References: Message-ID: <001601c7237c$263394e0$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> I have to say it didn't do anything for me, and I went to it with high expectations. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay In a message dated 12/18/2006 6:33:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: Can't help but take this opportunity to say, with a nod to Prof. Graham, that I'm ready to write off Gregg's article as crap without even reading it, James. But I'll read it. It may give me something to slam in my blog entry for tomorrow. Bob, I think you'll like it...it's partly advocating using our visual senses more fully, with deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture. Something that a vizpo poet couldn't too strenously disagree with. Here thesis, I think, is that the 'poetic' doesn't come from language and thus shouldn't start there; the poetic is resident in world around us and that's should be where we should first turn to find the poem. We then convert the elements we find in the world into the verbal images and diction that will convey them to reader. If you start in language you'll end up with more hollow poem. FYI...This may be my last post for next 10 days. I know you'll miss me. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 09:58:27 2006 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 09:58:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay In-Reply-To: <001601c7237c$263394e0$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> References: <001601c7237c$263394e0$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: On 12/19/06, TheOldMole wrote: > > I have to say it didn't do anything for me, and I went to it with high > expectations. > I just read it and I feel the same. Maybe it is just me, but I really don't think this essay is saying much that is very original. Example: "The art of finding in poetry is the art of marrying the sacred to the world, the invisible to the human." Translating this from Gregg-speak and her love of such words as "marry", "sacred" and "invisible", what is actually being said here? "Marrying the sacred to the world" sounds to me kind of like saying "what I want to say about the world, my experience in it, and my feelings which are very spiritual"; "the invisible to the human" is sounds like just another way of saying "express your abstract ideas or feelings using concrete details that you see in the world." This is the sort of bland statement I would expect to hear in a Poetry 101 class. Suzanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 19 10:08:26 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:08:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay References: Message-ID: <006001c7237f$8a2f6890$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob, I think you'll like it...it's partly advocating using our visual senses more fully, with deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture. Something that a vizpo poet couldn't too strenously disagree with. I haven't read the essay yet, so I won't comment more fully. I just wanted to respond to what Jim said. The only problem I have with this thesis is that it comes across as "fuzzy hippy talk" for lack of a better phrase-- its easy to agree with. In fact agreement is ubiquitous. I mean for heaven's sake what poet is going to disagree with this? Its too general. Of course we all advocate "using our visual senses more fully, with deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture", and finding what is inside the poem! Everyone is going to nod their head in reverent agreement and ignore the fact that it doesn't actually say much. How many poets honestly sit down to write and think "Yo! I think I will write something today that doesn't deliver the content of the poem and while we're at it, I'll deliver it dead! Muwwaaahh!" And please don't tell me that this is what language poets aim to do-- they don't. Their content might be the nuances and music of language, but that is still content. It might *seem* to you that a poet you dislike is doing that, but realistically speaking that probably isn't true. The real issue is what *is* inside the poem-- and you really can only address that by looking at actual poems and taking them on their own terms. How the poem succeeds or fails at its goal is never going to be summed up as just one thing. There just isn't any crafty technique that is going to help you. Back when I taught it was always a challenge to get my students to go beyond the subjective. I really had to train them in the art of the "I" statement when critiquing a poem. "This is very alive and beautiful. There is really something inside this poem" doesn't actually say very much that is useful because it begs the question "Yeah... and...this means what?" "Alive" and "beautiful" means one thing to one person and something completely different to another. And "Oh, there is nothing real inside this!" wafted out without anything more substantial to back it up sounds to me like an easy way to dismiss something just because you don't particulary like or "get" it. My two bits, Suzanne Haw, I think you may just written my blog entry for me, Suzanne. I read the essay yesterday and found it to be just about nothing but gush. I happen to disagree with a few things she says, but am willing to accept that her outlook on these is equal to mine (well, almost). For instance, I think it's the objects we find inide our poems and how we treat them with craft that counts. I also think craft is what gets our best objects into our poems. I'm also a poem-as-art-object rather than a poem-as-instruction person. But where I think the essay next to worthless is its telling us to use our eyes but not really telling us how. Gregg tells us about her childhood experience of Nature but doesn't seem to me to tell us explicitly how it helped make a poet of her. Nowhere, from what I got from my first reading of her essay, does she say more than developing good poetic eyesight is as or more valuable than working on one's craft. I suppose I can grant that she suggests ways to do this--by trying to see things from a slant different from the conventional. I got this from her listing the three wrong ways her students tend to see objects. But those three wrong ways all seem to me to reduce to connecting the wrong words to the objects they see rather than wrong seeing. Yikes, you got me going. No brakes, so here's more. She describes the student who "sees" objects as poetic things--for example, a sunset as "gorgeous" or "fiery-colored" (I'm going by mmeory so will be off, maybe by a lot, but getting the gist, I hope). I say the problem here is verbal--due to lack of the craft to filter out cliche. Later, she comends a student for writing of "a mirror reflecting nothing." Why isn't that seeing the mirror poetically? Then there's the student who Gregg says sees objects in too much detail. Again, the student has a verbal problem--he can't find details to describe objects with anything but standard mundane details. Then the third kind of student, who only sees sensationalistic objects. This student, I would agree, has a problem with seeing--too limited a seeing. Some lesson, so far: don't limit your seeing. Earlier Gregg claims that seeing similes rather than objects was a flaw. I differ. I see no point in using objects unless you can use them figuratively. Or to set up a figure of speech, perferably a metaphor. As I wrote that, I took it back. Pure imagistic use of objects can be effective, too. But metaphoric use is better. Of course, being a poet interested in many more techniques than Gregg seems aware, I didn't like, but understood, the implicit assumption that standard fifties American poetry is all that any poet would be interested in making. My amplification of what Gregg seems incompetently (as essayist; as teacher, she is probably reasonably good) to say: learn what words and attitudes are now too dead to connect effectively to the objects in your poems; do this by reading a lot of poetry, and by shoving your poetry at others and getting their reactions. Oh, and learn to recognize the archetypal depth I think Gregg is talking about but doesn't say she it, and keep after your poems until it seems to be in them somewhere. Banal lessons, but better than her essay's. Her Academy of American Poets position paper, I should say (why, I confess, is one reason I'm not being very nice to it--but yow, how I wish someone would be as unnice to my blog babbles of what I post here, including this, but about all I get is agreement/disagreement). I suspect I went out of agreement with you here and there, Suzanne, but I think we're in near-100% agreement about the essential ingushpidness of the Gregg essay. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 19 10:24:10 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:24:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay References: Message-ID: <007901c72381$bd0c6d10$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Yeeks, James, looks like I got agreement on this one. But thanks for bringing it up--it did get me thinking in places I haven't been often. Have a good vacation. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 19 10:27:07 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:27:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay References: <001601c7237c$263394e0$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: <008801c72382$262d1d80$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> On 12/19/06, TheOldMole wrote: I have to say it didn't do anything for me, and I went to it with high expectations. I just read it and I feel the same. Maybe it is just me, but I really don't think this essay is saying much that is very original. Example: "The art of finding in poetry is the art of marrying the sacred to the world, the invisible to the human." Translating this from Gregg-speak and her love of such words as "marry", "sacred" and "invisible", what is actually being said here? "Marrying the sacred to the world" sounds to me kind of like saying "what I want to say about the world, my experience in it, and my feelings which are very spiritual"; "the invisible to the human" is sounds like just another way of saying "express your abstract ideas or feelings using concrete details that you see in the world." This is the sort of bland statement I would expect to hear in a Poetry 101 class. Suzanne Sorta like saying, "Make your poems meaningful." Hey, great idea, I'll go do it right away! --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 10:32:55 2006 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:32:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay In-Reply-To: <006001c7237f$8a2f6890$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <006001c7237f$8a2f6890$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Bob, She commends a student for writing of "a mirror reflecting nothing."? Good grief, I remember the very workshop when she wrote that line in one of her poems, or maybe it was in her list of six things she noticed. And yes, I had the same reaction: it is very decorative and poetic. Its a tad satisfied with itself. Its bland. It lacks grit. Carolyn Forche called this sort of thing "the cult of the 'silent' tick"-- the tendecny for poets to skirt around difficulty by getting all breathy and empty. Here is what I wanted to get at: When you get past the vague, subjective language (and yes, I think Gregg overuses about twenty or so words in her work to the point where they really start to lose meaning-- it would be interesting to run one of her manuscripts through Word to see how many times she uses the word "sacred", for example) and examine the content, the guts as it were.... It's just not very interesting. The essay doesn't really doesn't say much beyond what is easy for the reader to agree with, and it keeps even that nice and vague. In fact I would go further to say my impression is that this essay was written to elicit agreement, approval, and the nodding of vaguely pleased heads. I would really love to see Gregg write an essay that really takes a stake in a strong idea. That eschews adjectives for a while. An essay that challenges the reader's expectations and assumptions, that takes a real aesthetic stand. An essay of aggressive vitality that throws its drink against the wall and invites disagreement. I think she is capable, but to tell you the truth, I think she is just too damned nervous as a writer. I highly recommend Mary Karr's essay "Against Decoration" if you really want to get to into the meat of these ideas. Being Cranky Today As Always, Suzanne On 12/19/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Bob, I think you'll like it...it's partly advocating using our visual > senses more fully, > > with deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture. Something that a vizpo poet > > couldn't too strenously disagree with. > > > > I haven't read the essay yet, so I won't comment more fully. I just wanted > to respond to what Jim said. > > The only problem I have with this thesis is that it comes across as "fuzzy > hippy talk" for lack of a better phrase-- its easy to agree with. In fact > agreement is ubiquitous. I mean for heaven's sake what poet is going to > disagree with this? Its too general. Of course we all advocate "using our > visual senses more fully, with deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture", > and finding what is inside the poem! Everyone is going to nod their head > in reverent agreement and ignore the fact that it doesn't actually say > much. > > How many poets honestly sit down to write and think "Yo! I think I will > write something today that doesn't deliver the content of the poem and > while we're at it, I'll deliver it dead! Muwwaaahh!" And please don't > tell me that this is what language poets aim to do-- they don't. Their > content might be the nuances and music of language, but that is still > content. It might *seem* to you that a poet you dislike is doing that, but > realistically speaking that probably isn't true. > > The real issue is what *is* inside the poem-- and you really can only > address that by looking at actual poems and taking them on their own terms. > How the poem succeeds or fails at its goal is never going to be summed up as > just one thing. There just isn't any crafty technique that is going to help > you. > > Back when I taught it was always a challenge to get my students to go > beyond the subjective. I really had to train them in the art of the "I" > statement when critiquing a poem. "This is very alive and beautiful. There > is really something inside this poem" doesn't actually say very much that is > useful because it begs the question "Yeah... and...this means what?" > "Alive" and "beautiful" means one thing to one person and something > completely different to another. And "Oh, there is nothing real inside > this!" wafted out without anything more substantial to back it up sounds to > me like an easy way to dismiss something just because you don't particulary > like or "get" it. > > My two bits, > > Suzanne > > Haw, I think you may just written my blog entry for me, Suzanne. I read > the essay yesterday and found it to be just about nothing but gush. I > happen to disagree with a few things she says, but am willing to accept that > her outlook on these is equal to mine (well, almost). For instance, I think > it's the objects we find inide our poems and how we treat them with craft > that counts. I also think craft is what gets our best objects into our > poems. I'm also a poem-as-art-object rather than a poem-as-instruction > person. > > But where I think the essay next to worthless is its telling us to use our > eyes but not really telling us how. Gregg tells us about her childhood > experience of Nature but doesn't seem to me to tell us explicitly how it > helped make a poet of her. Nowhere, from what I got from my first reading > of her essay, does she say more than developing good poetic eyesight is as > or more valuable than working on one's craft. I suppose I can grant that > she suggests ways to do this--by trying to see things from a slant different > from the conventional. I got this from her listing the three wrong ways her > students tend to see objects. But those three wrong ways all seem to me to > reduce to connecting the wrong words to the objects they see rather than > wrong seeing. > > Yikes, you got me going. No brakes, so here's more. She describes the > student who "sees" objects as poetic things--for example, a sunset as > "gorgeous" or "fiery-colored" (I'm going by mmeory so will be off, maybe by > a lot, but getting the gist, I hope). I say the problem here is verbal--due > to lack of the craft to filter out cliche. Later, she comends a student for > writing of "a mirror reflecting nothing." Why isn't that seeing the mirror > poetically? Then there's the student who Gregg says sees objects in too > much detail. Again, the student has a verbal problem--he can't find details > to describe objects with anything but standard mundane details. Then the > third kind of student, who only sees sensationalistic objects. This > student, I would agree, has a problem with seeing--too limited a seeing. > Some lesson, so far: don't limit your seeing. > > Earlier Gregg claims that seeing similes rather than objects was a flaw. > I differ. I see no point in using objects unless you can use them > figuratively. Or to set up a figure of speech, perferably a metaphor. As I > wrote that, I took it back. Pure imagistic use of objects can be effective, > too. But metaphoric use is better. > > Of course, being a poet interested in many more techniques than Gregg > seems aware, I didn't like, but understood, the implicit assumption that > standard fifties American poetry is all that any poet would be interested in > making. > > My amplification of what Gregg seems incompetently (as essayist; as > teacher, she is probably reasonably good) to say: learn what words > and attitudes are now too dead to connect effectively to the objects in your > poems; do this by reading a lot of poetry, and by shoving your poetry at > others and getting their reactions. Oh, and learn to recognize the > archetypal depth I think Gregg is talking about but doesn't say she it, and > keep after your poems until it seems to be in them somewhere. > > Banal lessons, but better than her essay's. Her Academy of American Poets > position paper, I should say (why, I confess, is one reason I'm not being > very nice to it--but yow, how I wish someone would be as unnice to my blog > babbles of what I post here, including this, but about all I get is > agreement/disagreement). > > I suspect I went out of agreement with you here and there, Suzanne, but I > think we're in near-100% agreement about the essential ingushpidness of the > Gregg essay. > > --Bob G. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and you have style." --Quentin Crisp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Dec 19 12:13:59 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:13:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C Message-ID: I like to beat people up absence of passion, principles, love. She murmurs What just popped into my eye was a fiend?s umbrella and if you should come and pinch me now as I go out for coffee ? as I was saying winter of 18 lumps Days produce life locations to banish 7 up Nomads, my babies, where are you? Life?s My dream which is gunfire in my poem Orange cavities of dreams stir inside ?The Poems? Whatever is going to happen is already happening Some people prefer ?the interior monologue? I like to beat people up --Ted Berrigan To learn why this is one of the best, check out Ron Silliman's blog, yesterday's entry: http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 19 12:22:46 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 09:22:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] happy holidays? In-Reply-To: <200612191512.kBJFCG8X031173@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <707482.94442.qm@web35514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Bah humbug. Bitterly, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From steven.mccall at navy.mil Tue Dec 19 12:29:44 2006 From: steven.mccall at navy.mil (Mccall, Steven NAVAIR) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:29:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Collins news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <279F81943E9C004D93DBEE14FE91B1BBDA213D@NAEALKHREX04VA.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil> Did anyone catch Collins' reading on Prairie Home Companion this weekend? He got good reactions, lots of laughs from the audience. He also participated in the Guy Noir skit, where he was told by Guy (Kieller) that just because he's bald doesn't mean the things he says are authentic. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Day Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:10 To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Collins news I'm sure teh queenie was entranced. On 12/16/06, David Graham wrote: > From the same set of student exams: > > > "The greatest award that he received in 2001 was when he was named > Poet Laureate where he wrote poetry for the Buckingham Palace. > Collins became very popular very fast from all this." > > > > > > > ========================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland!" _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Dec 19 12:49:29 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:49:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Linda Gregg's essay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <831CDC0E-1A95-4937-A251-184DAB7D902E@ripon.edu> I'm an admirer of Linda Gregg's poetry. But what's most puzzling to me in her essay is the heavy stress she places on close observation of the natural world. I don't think of her poems as having much of that at all. When she describes the physical world, her diction often tends toward the generic and minimalist--fields, trees, birds, etc., and not alfalfa scorched by August sun, sumac grayed in the rain, grosbeaks squabbling over sunflower seeds. And for long passages and sometimes whole poems her concern is not with the physical at all--but the spiritual and intellectual. I think of her as a fairly abstract poet. Interesting that she sees her own sources so deeply grounded in nature and the physical world. THE PRECISION There is a modesty in nature. In the small of it and in the strongest. The leaf moves just the amount the breeze indicates and nothing more. In the power of lust, too, there can be a quiet and clarity, a fusion of exact moments. There is a silence of it inside the thundering. And when the body swoons, it is because the heart knows its truth. There is a directness and equipoise in the fervor, just as the greatest turmoil has precision. Like the discretion a tornado has when it tears down building after building, house by house. It is enough, Kafka said, that the arrow fit exactly into the wound that it makes. I think about my body in love as I look down on these lavish apple trees and the workers moving with skill from one to the next, singing. --Linda Gregg On Dec 18, 2006, at 4:27 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > I like what Linda Gregg is doing in this article...shifting the > question of writing poems away from craft, the use of poetic > language, etc. > and trying to articulate the ways in which poems are made by training > ourselves to apprehend fully the world around us... > Finnegan > > http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/19260# > > Ezra Pound defined craft as "the means for delivering the content > of the poem and to deliver it alive." However, there is always a > danger in making the craft the thing to be delivered. The poet must > have craft, but he/she must also locate the substance, the art > within the poem, which is at the center of the best poetry, and is > upon what the craft works. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Tue Dec 19 13:18:01 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:18:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I love that poem. right up there on peak with Padgett's "Nothing in that Drawer" and a few others for 20th C. sonnets in my opinion. On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, David Graham wrote: > I like to beat people up > absence of passion, principles, love. She murmurs > What just popped into my eye was a fiend?s umbrella > and if you should come and pinch me now > as I go out for coffee > ? as I was saying winter of 18 lumps > Days produce life locations to banish 7 up > Nomads, my babies, where are you? Life?s > My dream which is gunfire in my poem > Orange cavities of dreams stir inside ?The Poems? > Whatever is going to happen is already happening > Some people prefer ?the interior monologue? > I like to beat people up > > --Ted Berrigan > > To learn why this is one of the best, check out Ron Silliman's blog, > yesterday's entry: > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > ========================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ========================================== > > > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 19 14:28:16 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:28:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: Message-ID: <00dc01c723a3$d6e4d1b0$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I'm guessing it's because he beats the reader up with it. Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be that looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry & Views Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C I like to beat people up absence of passion, principles, love. She murmurs What just popped into my eye was a fiend?s umbrella and if you should come and pinch me now as I go out for coffee ? as I was saying winter of 18 lumps Days produce life locations to banish 7 up Nomads, my babies, where are you? Life?s My dream which is gunfire in my poem Orange cavities of dreams stir inside ?The Poems? Whatever is going to happen is already happening Some people prefer ?the interior monologue? I like to beat people up --Ted Berrigan To learn why this is one of the best, check out Ron Silliman's blog, yesterday's entry: http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LauraHeidy at aol.com Tue Dec 19 14:32:01 2006 From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:32:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C Message-ID: <491.cadae1b.32b99831@aol.com> In a message dated 12/19/2006 2:27:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be that looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Tue Dec 19 14:49:21 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:49:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: <491.cadae1b.32b99831@aol.com> Message-ID: it's a sonnet from Berrigan's book of sonnets, The Sonnets, which are loosely patterned on the cycle of Shakespeares sonnets. On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 LauraHeidy at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/19/2006 2:27:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be that > looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? > > > Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Dec 19 14:54:21 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:54:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C Message-ID: In a message dated 12/19/2006 1:53:15 PM Central Standard Time, jfq at myuw.net writes: > > > it's a sonnet from Berrigan's book of sonnets, The Sonnets, which are > loosely patterned on the cycle of Shakespeares sonnets. > Loosely? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 19 15:15:48 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:15:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: <491.cadae1b.32b99831@aol.com> Message-ID: <010901c723aa$7a938850$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be that looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. Well, I at first thought it had fourteen lines. . . . --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Dec 19 15:19:21 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:19:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay References: <001601c7237c$263394e0$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> <008801c72382$262d1d80$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001e01c723aa$f8b20fe0$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Meaningful? Are you supposed to do that? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay On 12/19/06, TheOldMole wrote: I have to say it didn't do anything for me, and I went to it with high expectations. I just read it and I feel the same. Maybe it is just me, but I really don't think this essay is saying much that is very original. Example: "The art of finding in poetry is the art of marrying the sacred to the world, the invisible to the human." Translating this from Gregg-speak and her love of such words as "marry", "sacred" and "invisible", what is actually being said here? "Marrying the sacred to the world" sounds to me kind of like saying "what I want to say about the world, my experience in it, and my feelings which are very spiritual"; "the invisible to the human" is sounds like just another way of saying "express your abstract ideas or feelings using concrete details that you see in the world." This is the sort of bland statement I would expect to hear in a Poetry 101 class. Suzanne Sorta like saying, "Make your poems meaningful." Hey, great idea, I'll go do it right away! --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Dec 19 15:21:33 2006 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:21:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: <010901c723aa$7a938850$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <491.cadae1b.32b99831@aol.com> <010901c723aa$7a938850$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <9474E57F-ECAE-4FD1-92C7-E53839576685@earthlink.net> On Dec 19, 2006, at 3:15 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be > that looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? > Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. > Well, I at first thought it had fourteen lines. . . . > Would that sonnetize it for you? Hal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Tue Dec 19 15:31:04 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:31:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: <010901c723aa$7a938850$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: it does have fourteen lines. that's what the ellipsis gets you to. On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be that looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? > Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. > Well, I at first thought it had fourteen lines. . . . > > > > --Bob G. > From suelin7184 at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 16:24:27 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:24:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: Message-ID: <002e01c723b4$11a4ffe0$0201a8c0@LindaSue> how? Blessings, Linda Sue Grimes Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C > > it does have fourteen lines. that's what the ellipsis gets you to. > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be that >> looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? >> Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. >> Well, I at first thought it had fourteen lines. . . . >> >> >> >> --Bob G. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Dec 19 16:27:01 2006 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:27:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3158569D-EEE5-4241-ACB4-59372B824AC1@earthlink.net> Yes, Padgett's is one of the few poems I've bothered to memorize since leaving high school. Hal "The highest responsibility of the artist is to hide beauty." --R. H. Blythe Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com halvard at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Dec 19, 2006, at 1:18 PM, jfq at myuw.net wrote: > I love that poem. right up there on peak with Padgett's "Nothing in > that Drawer" and a few others for 20th C. sonnets in my opinion. > > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, David Graham wrote: > >> I like to beat people up >> absence of passion, principles, love. She murmurs >> What just popped into my eye was a fiend?s umbrella >> and if you should come and pinch me now >> as I go out for coffee >> ? as I was saying winter of 18 lumps >> Days produce life locations to banish 7 up >> Nomads, my babies, where are you? Life?s >> My dream which is gunfire in my poem >> Orange cavities of dreams stir inside ?The Poems? >> Whatever is going to happen is already happening >> Some people prefer ?the interior monologue? >> I like to beat people up >> >> --Ted Berrigan >> >> To learn why this is one of the best, check out Ron Silliman's >> blog, yesterday's entry: >> >> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ >> >> ========================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> Poetry Library: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Dec 19 16:32:13 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:32:13 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay References: Message-ID: <004601c723b5$25f7d480$fbde3052@ANNY> I will miss you. From: JforJames at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:44 PM In a message dated 12/18/2006 6:33:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: Can't help but take this opportunity to say, with a nod to Prof. Graham, that I'm ready to write off Gregg's article as crap without even reading it, James. But I'll read it. It may give me something to slam in my blog entry for tomorrow. Bob, I think you'll like it...it's partly advocating using our visual senses more fully, with deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture. Something that a vizpo poet couldn't too strenously disagree with. Here thesis, I think, is that the 'poetic' doesn't come from language and thus shouldn't start there; the poetic is resident in world around us and that's should be where we should first turn to find the poem. We then convert the elements we find in the world into the verbal images and diction that will convey them to reader. If you start in language you'll end up with more hollow poem. FYI...This may be my last post for next 10 days. I know you'll miss me. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Dec 19 16:49:19 2006 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:49:19 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay In-Reply-To: References: <006001c7237f$8a2f6890$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <017C78AF-DD5E-4008-8043-AE18F117F6B3@earthlink.net> I don't think "a mirror reflecting nothing" is especially bad in and of itself.... (it would depend on the context) but then again I also felt a need to defend a phrase like "dim lands of peace" against that 'scientist' of language, Mr. Ezra Pound.... I read that Karr "Against Decoration" essay around 1998 or something, and didn't find it very impressive-- and even less so after reading some of Karr's own poetry (it's got a snazzy title, but like so many essays in this genre of "don'ts," it's so much better at saying what it doesn't like than what it does like-- and is based on certain assumptions of 'acceptable' verse. What does Karr really offer in place of what she calls 'decoration'?) I'm curious what you see in it though... On Dec 19, 2006, at 7:32 AM, Suzanne Burns wrote: > Bob, > > She commends a student for writing of "a mirror reflecting > nothing."? Good grief, I remember the very workshop when she wrote > that line in one of her poems, or maybe it was in her list of six > things she noticed. And yes, I had the same reaction: it is very > decorative and poetic. Its a tad satisfied with itself. Its > bland. It lacks grit. Carolyn Forche called this sort of thing > "the cult of the 'silent' tick"-- the tendecny for poets to skirt > around difficulty by getting all breathy and empty. > > Here is what I wanted to get at: > > When you get past the vague, subjective language (and yes, I think > Gregg overuses about twenty or so words in her work to the point > where they really start to lose meaning-- it would be interesting > to run one of her manuscripts through Word to see how many times > she uses the word "sacred", for example) and examine the content, > the guts as it were.... > > It's just not very interesting. > > The essay doesn't really doesn't say much beyond what is easy for > the reader to agree with, and it keeps even that nice and vague. > > In fact I would go further to say my impression is that this essay > was written to elicit agreement, approval, and the nodding of > vaguely pleased heads. > > I would really love to see Gregg write an essay that really takes a > stake in a strong idea. That eschews adjectives for a while. An > essay that challenges the reader's expectations and assumptions, > that takes a real aesthetic stand. An essay of aggressive vitality > that throws its drink against the wall and invites disagreement. > > I think she is capable, but to tell you the truth, I think she is > just too damned nervous as a writer. > > I highly recommend Mary Karr's essay "Against Decoration" if you > really want to get to into the meat of these ideas. > > Being Cranky Today As Always, > > Suzanne > > > > On 12/19/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Bob, I think you'll like it...it's partly advocating using our > visual senses more fully, > with deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture. Something that a vizpo > poet couldn't too strenously disagree with. > > I haven't read the essay yet, so I won't comment more fully. I just > wanted to respond to what Jim said. > > The only problem I have with this thesis is that it comes across as > "fuzzy hippy talk" for lack of a better phrase-- its easy to agree > with. In fact agreement is ubiquitous. I mean for heaven's sake > what poet is going to disagree with this? Its too general. Of > course we all advocate "using our visual senses more fully, with > deep scrutiny and a wide-open aperture", and finding what is inside > the poem! Everyone is going to nod their head in reverent > agreement and ignore the fact that it doesn't actually say much. > > How many poets honestly sit down to write and think "Yo! I think I > will write something today that doesn't deliver the content of the > poem and while we're at it, I'll deliver it dead! Muwwaaahh!" > And please don't tell me that this is what language poets aim to > do-- they don't. Their content might be the nuances and music of > language, but that is still content. It might *seem* to you that a > poet you dislike is doing that, but realistically speaking that > probably isn't true. > > The real issue is what *is* inside the poem-- and you really can > only address that by looking at actual poems and taking them on > their own terms. How the poem succeeds or fails at its goal is > never going to be summed up as just one thing. There just isn't > any crafty technique that is going to help you. > > Back when I taught it was always a challenge to get my students to > go beyond the subjective. I really had to train them in the art of > the "I" statement when critiquing a poem. "This is very alive and > beautiful. There is really something inside this poem" doesn't > actually say very much that is useful because it begs the question > "Yeah... and...this means what?" "Alive" and "beautiful" means > one thing to one person and something completely different to > another. And "Oh, there is nothing real inside this!" wafted out > without anything more substantial to back it up sounds to me like > an easy way to dismiss something just because you don't particulary > like or "get" it. > > My two bits, > > Suzanne > > Haw, I think you may just written my blog entry for me, Suzanne. I > read the essay yesterday and found it to be just about nothing but > gush. I happen to disagree with a few things she says, but am > willing to accept that her outlook on these is equal to mine (well, > almost). For instance, I think it's the objects we find inide our > poems and how we treat them with craft that counts. I also think > craft is what gets our best objects into our poems. I'm also a > poem-as-art-object rather than a poem-as-instruction person. > > But where I think the essay next to worthless is its telling us to > use our eyes but not really telling us how. Gregg tells us about > her childhood experience of Nature but doesn't seem to me to tell > us explicitly how it helped make a poet of her. Nowhere, from what > I got from my first reading of her essay, does she say more than > developing good poetic eyesight is as or more valuable than working > on one's craft. I suppose I can grant that she suggests ways to do > this--by trying to see things from a slant different from the > conventional. I got this from her listing the three wrong ways her > students tend to see objects. But those three wrong ways all seem > to me to reduce to connecting the wrong words to the objects they > see rather than wrong seeing. > > Yikes, you got me going. No brakes, so here's more. She describes > the student who "sees" objects as poetic things--for example, a > sunset as "gorgeous" or "fiery-colored" (I'm going by mmeory so > will be off, maybe by a lot, but getting the gist, I hope). I say > the problem here is verbal--due to lack of the craft to filter out > cliche. Later, she comends a student for writing of "a mirror > reflecting nothing." Why isn't that seeing the mirror poetically? > Then there's the student who Gregg says sees objects in too much > detail. Again, the student has a verbal problem--he can't find > details to describe objects with anything but standard mundane > details. Then the third kind of student, who only sees > sensationalistic objects. This student, I would agree, has a > problem with seeing--too limited a seeing. Some lesson, so far: > don't limit your seeing. > > Earlier Gregg claims that seeing similes rather than objects was a > flaw. I differ. I see no point in using objects unless you can > use them figuratively. Or to set up a figure of speech, perferably > a metaphor. As I wrote that, I took it back. Pure imagistic use > of objects can be effective, too. But metaphoric use is better. > > Of course, being a poet interested in many more techniques than > Gregg seems aware, I didn't like, but understood, the implicit > assumption that standard fifties American poetry is all that any > poet would be interested in making. > > My amplification of what Gregg seems incompetently (as essayist; as > teacher, she is probably reasonably good) to say: learn what words > and attitudes are now too dead to connect effectively to the > objects in your poems; do this by reading a lot of poetry, and by > shoving your poetry at others and getting their reactions. Oh, and > learn to recognize the archetypal depth I think Gregg is talking > about but doesn't say she it, and keep after your poems until it > seems to be in them somewhere. > > Banal lessons, but better than her essay's. Her Academy of > American Poets position paper, I should say (why, I confess, is one > reason I'm not being very nice to it--but yow, how I wish someone > would be as unnice to my blog babbles of what I post here, > including this, but about all I get is agreement/disagreement). > > I suspect I went out of agreement with you here and there, Suzanne, > but I think we're in near-100% agreement about the essential > ingushpidness of the Gregg essay. > > --Bob G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets > and what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with > you,' polish that, and you have style." > > --Quentin Crisp > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suelin7184 at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 17:02:02 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:02:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: <3158569D-EEE5-4241-ACB4-59372B824AC1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003801c723b9$50c79ed0$0201a8c0@LindaSue> How about this sonnet? Fixation It's not that hard to climb up on a cross and have nails driven into your hands and feet. Of course it would hurt, but if your mind were strong enough you wouldn't notice. You would notice how much farther you can see up here, how there's even a breeze that cools your leaking blood. The hills with olive groves fold in to other hills with roads and huts, flocks of sheep on a distant rise. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C > Yes, Padgett's is one of the few poems I've bothered > to memorize since leaving high school. > > Hal > > "The highest responsibility of the artist > is to hide beauty." > --R. H. Blythe > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > halvard at earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > On Dec 19, 2006, at 1:18 PM, jfq at myuw.net wrote: > >> I love that poem. right up there on peak with Padgett's "Nothing in that >> Drawer" and a few others for 20th C. sonnets in my opinion. >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, David Graham wrote: >> >>> I like to beat people up >>> absence of passion, principles, love. She murmurs >>> What just popped into my eye was a fiend?s umbrella >>> and if you should come and pinch me now >>> as I go out for coffee >>> ? as I was saying winter of 18 lumps >>> Days produce life locations to banish 7 up >>> Nomads, my babies, where are you? Life?s >>> My dream which is gunfire in my poem >>> Orange cavities of dreams stir inside ?The Poems? >>> Whatever is going to happen is already happening >>> Some people prefer ?the interior monologue? >>> I like to beat people up >>> >>> --Ted Berrigan >>> >>> To learn why this is one of the best, check out Ron Silliman's blog, >>> yesterday's entry: >>> >>> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> ========================================== >>> David Graham >>> grahamd at ripon.edu >>> Home Page: >>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >>> Poetry Library: >>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >>> ========================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jfq at myuw.net Tue Dec 19 17:05:24 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:05:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: <002e01c723b4$11a4ffe0$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Message-ID: ellipsis stand in for things that are left out. in this poem the ellipsis is standing in for line 6, which is missing. On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: > how? > > Blessings, > Linda Sue Grimes > Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:31 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C > > >> >> it does have fourteen lines. that's what the ellipsis gets you to. >> >> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> >>> Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be that >>> looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? >>> Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. >>> Well, I at first thought it had fourteen lines. . . . >>> >>> >>> >>> --Bob G. >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 19 17:31:58 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:31:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: <491.cadae1b.32b99831@aol.com><010901c723aa$7a938850$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <9474E57F-ECAE-4FD1-92C7-E53839576685@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <012b01c723bd$81d24260$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be that looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. Well, I at first thought it had fourteen lines. . . . Would that sonnetize it for you? Hal No, but it'd keep it from being a perfect non-sonnet-that-superficially-resembles-a-sonnet. I think a sonnet ought to have 14 iambic pentameters with a rhyme at the end of each, myself--or come close to doing that. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 19 17:36:48 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:36:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: Message-ID: <015101c723be$2debb950$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > ellipsis stand in for things that are left out. in this poem the ellipsis > is standing in for line 6, which is missing. Nice try, but it doesn't make a line, so it isn't. If it appeared where a line would be, I could accept it. But how a-bout this for a s-o-n-n--e-------t? --Bob G. From bmarcacci at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 17:53:24 2006 From: bmarcacci at gmail.com (Bob Marcacci) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 06:53:24 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: <015101c723be$2debb950$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: now you're trying! -- Bob Marcacci The chimerical pursuit of perfection is always linked to some important deficiency, frequently the inability to love. - Bernard Grasset > From: Bob Grumman > Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:36:48 -0500 > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C > > > >> ellipsis stand in for things that are left out. in this poem the ellipsis >> is standing in for line 6, which is missing. > > > Nice try, but it doesn't make a line, so it isn't. If it appeared where a > line would be, I could accept it. > > But how a-bout this for a s-o-n-n--e-------t? > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jfq at myuw.net Tue Dec 19 18:02:56 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:02:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: <015101c723be$2debb950$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: i think you just have to read the ellipsis as including the line break as well. as for yours, it's nice, but I think, just to be clear you ought to revise it to read s/o/n/n/ /e/ / / / / / / /t or maybe just s/...t On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> ellipsis stand in for things that are left out. in this poem the ellipsis is >> standing in for line 6, which is missing. > > > Nice try, but it doesn't make a line, so it isn't. If it appeared where a line > would be, I could accept it. > > But how a-bout this for a s-o-n-n--e-------t? > > --Bob G. _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Dec 19 18:12:14 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:12:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner - New Update Message-ID: <00b701c723c3$1ee88be0$fbde3052@ANNY> "Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. It's what everything else isn't." --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of Theodore Roethke* thanks to James Finnegan and more under Why Poetry Exists http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=62 Newly featured Poets: James Cervantes http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=219 Jean Vengua http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=220 Jim Bennett http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=221 Ton van't Hof http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=222 Ivy Alvarez http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=223 Nick Carbo http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=224 Aaron Belz http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=225 Alicia Ostriker 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http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1767 from THE WORLD WENT ROUND http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1768 from ON FIRST LOOKING http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1769 Charles Martin Whispers : 401 - 402 - 403 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1770 404-Whispers 405-ascension-406-407-circulate-408-hatching http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1771 Whispers : 409-dreamer http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1772 Whispers : 410-No Broken Dreams - 411 - 412-footprints http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1773 Whispers : 413-sunrises & sunsets - 414 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1774 Whispers : 415-Reflections - 416-cyclops - 417 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1775 Whispers : 421-The ferry - 422 - 423 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1776 Whispers : 424-Homeward Bound - 425 - 426 - 427 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1777 Whispers : 432-5 am - 433-astute ankle - 434 - 435 - 436 - 437 - 438 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1778 Whispers : 443-questions - 444 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1779 Charles Martin TWO1 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1783 TWO2 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1784 TWO3 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1785 TWO4 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1786 TWO5 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1787 TWO6 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1788 TWO7 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1789 TWO8 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1790 TWO9 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1791 TWO10 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1792 TWO11 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1793 TWO12 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1794 TWO13 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1795 TWO14 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1796 TWO15 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1797 TWO16 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1798 TWO17 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1799 TWO18 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1800 TWO19 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1801 Under Poets on Poets ___Translations__ By Jon Corelis - EURIPIDES' HIPPOLYTOS: A PERFORMANCE VERSION [work in progress] http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=66 And Ellen Moody with : VITTORIA COLONNA in English I write to vent the inward pain http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=171 Gone the gentle colors of the earth's spring http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=172 See that lovely juniper, pressed so hard, http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=173 Look, how quiet the sea, peaceful the waves- http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=174 Why endlessly appeal to death's cold ear, http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=175 To this torment has Love reduced my life: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=176 Love teaches me to feed on flames and tears; http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=177 When my tormented heart contracts with pain, http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=178 In the faithful heart a second spring comes http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=179 My most exalted Lord, I am writing http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=180 Love, you know all too well my foot never http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=181 Canzone: In this moment, cut off from my haven http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=182 A mosaic high on a wall, flakes of http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=183 And VERONICA GAMBARA: Stanzas [On the fleetingness of earthly goods] http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=184 Now hope has died http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=185 How welcome to my eyes this shady hill http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=186 Love assaulted my heart many times http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=187 I am not and hope never to be free http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=188 So intense is this grief http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=189 Torture me, cruel goddess: use your full strength http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=190 That bond my blest fate protected me by http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=191 Beautiful shining eyes http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=192 Unbind and weave into your golden hair http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=193 If in that radiant beautiful age http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=194 Far different forests, meadows, and mountains http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=195 I always respect the order by which I receive the contributions. With my felt acknowledgement to all those who have contributed to the Corner, and my best wishes for the festivities, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 19 20:04:07 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:04:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: Message-ID: <016a01c723d2$d0f35220$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >i think you just have to read the ellipsis as including the line break as >well. That doesn't make sense. After all, it would have been easy enough to put the ellipsis in a line by itself if it had been intended to represent a line. And why spoil an otherwise perfectly wrong sonnet by having 14 lines? > as for yours, it's nice, but I think, just to be clear you ought to revise > it to read > > s/o/n/n/ /e/ / / / / / / /t > > or maybe just > > s/...t > The first improves on mine, but the second has two much text. "..." would be sufficient. It could be a haiku, too--or a whole sonnet sequence. --Bob G. > On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> >>> ellipsis stand in for things that are left out. in this poem the >>> ellipsis is standing in for line 6, which is missing. >> >> >> Nice try, but it doesn't make a line, so it isn't. If it appeared where >> a line would be, I could accept it. >> >> But how a-bout this for a s-o-n-n--e-------t? >> >> --Bob G. _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From queenmouse at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 20:29:19 2006 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:29:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay In-Reply-To: <017C78AF-DD5E-4008-8043-AE18F117F6B3@earthlink.net> References: <006001c7237f$8a2f6890$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <017C78AF-DD5E-4008-8043-AE18F117F6B3@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 12/19/06, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > > I'm curious what you see in it though... > My main point was that she takes the idea Gregg is trying to get across and does a better and more precise job of it, particularly anchoring it in a real discussion of poetry. I don't necessarily agree with everything Karr has to say, mind you (e.g., I happen to really love Merrill), but I found her approach to to the subject to be much more insightful, more thought out, more rigorous and much more willing to take a real position as opposed to making vague or general pronouncements. Suzanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suelin7184 at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 06:34:00 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 05:34:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: Message-ID: <004001c7242c$e0619140$0201a8c0@LindaSue> then why is it not spaced this way: as I go out for coffee . as I was saying winter of 18 lumps I don't see how it can stand for line six when it is part of line six. Blessings, Linda Sue Grimes Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C > ellipsis stand in for things that are left out. in this poem the ellipsis is standing in for line 6, which is missing. > > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: > >> how? >> >> Blessings, >> Linda Sue Grimes >> Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C >> >> >>> >>> it does have fourteen lines. that's what the ellipsis gets you to. >>> >>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be that >>>> looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? >>>> Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. >>>> Well, I at first thought it had fourteen lines. . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --Bob G. >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Wed Dec 20 13:06:42 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:06:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: <004001c7242c$e0619140$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Message-ID: it's because the ellipsis includes an elided line break. On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: > then why is it not spaced this way: > > as I go out for coffee > . > as I was saying winter of 18 lumps > > I don't see how it can stand for line six when it is part of line six. > > Blessings, > Linda Sue Grimes > Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:05 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C > > >> ellipsis stand in for things that are left out. in this poem the ellipsis is standing in for line 6, which is missing. >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: >> >>> how? >>> >>> Blessings, >>> Linda Sue Grimes >>> Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:31 PM >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C >>> >>> >>>> >>>> it does have fourteen lines. that's what the ellipsis gets you to. >>>> >>>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be that >>>>> looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? >>>>> Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. >>>>> Well, I at first thought it had fourteen lines. . . . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --Bob G. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Dec 20 13:57:16 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:57:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: Message-ID: <005a01c72468$ad0d30b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > it's because the ellipsis includes an elided line break. > Okay, I finally got it. I missed the slanted line (thought I knows what them things means). I think the poem would be better (i.e., worse) without the slanted line. Now that I think on it, what's the point of the ellipsis? The slanted line says this line over, on to the next. Also, if slanted lines are taken to indicate line breaks, they won't work as clearly to mean "line" the way a dash would, a dash being a line. (Just going on about this mainly to get it straight in my own mind.) linelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelineline Another sonnet. --Bob G. From jfq at myuw.net Wed Dec 20 15:04:41 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:04:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: <005a01c72468$ad0d30b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: I don't think there's a slanted line, although I don't have the original in front of me so I'm just going off of Ron Silliman's transcription. I take the ellipsis to include a slanted line. I think a lot of what's going on with that ellipsis is Berrigan's sense of humor. Many of the poems in The Sonnets are composed of cutups of earlier poems that Berrigan didn't like. From that point of view, the whole set of poems is constructed of pieces of other poems, and replacing a line that he didn't like from a cut up procedure(maybe) is what I take that ellipsis to be doing. It's almost like bits like that ellipsis and a few other items I can think of from the sonnets are like "Under Construction" signs hanging off the poems, giving the reader a cue that these poems are assembled as much as they are written. I said in my review of the complete poems (Rattle, Summer 06), which is not the best piece of critical writing I've ever done I'm sad to say, that I had a sensation reading long sets of poems from the book that there was a way in which the poems felt like they were reading me, that is, that I was interacting with the text in an unusual way. I think part of that has to do with the jokes in the poems like that ellipsis inviting the reader to scratch his head for a moment until the realization dawns that Berrigan is joshing him a bit. To take it a step further, a lot of Berrigan's poems play with the idea of form and what it means for a poem to be in a form. He even invented a lot of Forms that while not using strict metrical or rhyme rules like forms are traditionally conceived, do have compositional rules that are interesting and give things a continuity that might otherwise not be apparent. To take another example that throws a little more light Berrigan's sense of humor, my favorite of his poems "Things to do on Speed" is assembled from the text of a Life magazine article about speed addicts. It's a "Things to Do" poem, which is a form that Berrigan used a lot, and the basic compositional rule (adapted, I think, from the aleatoric compositional procedures that Berrigan learned from Mac Low and Cage) is that the poem should be a set of things that a person should do under certain circumstances. Other forms that Berrigan invented include the "10 Things" list poem which generally doesn't have ten things on it, and the "People who Died" poem which, according to Notley's end notes in the collected poems, Berrigan considered a form that absolutely everyone could and did write for themselves over their life. That's the poem, btw, that inspired the Jim Carroll Band's biggest hit song "People Who Died." Which is all just to say, I think, that reading Berrigan is a process of getting to know him as the poems get to know you. And by that i mean, as the poems learn about the reader, they feel like they present things to you in different ways, and the "unfinished" quality of a lot of the poems, contributed by the ellipsis in Sonnet 50, adds to that illusion that even though they are fixed on the page, new things can always come out of them. On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> >> it's because the ellipsis includes an elided line break. >> > Okay, I finally got it. I missed the slanted line (thought I knows what them > things means). I think the poem would be better (i.e., worse) without the > slanted line. Now that I think on it, what's the point of the ellipsis? The > slanted line says this line over, on to the next. Also, if slanted lines are > taken to indicate line breaks, they won't work as clearly to mean "line" the > way a dash would, a dash being a line. (Just going on about this mainly to get > it straight in my own mind.) > > linelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelineline > > Another sonnet. > > --Bob G. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From suelin7184 at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 15:28:22 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:28:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: Message-ID: <000c01c72475$66044d40$0201a8c0@LindaSue> sorry, that doesn't make sense ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C > > it's because the ellipsis includes an elided line break. > > On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: > >> then why is it not spaced this way: >> >> as I go out for coffee >> . >> as I was saying winter of 18 lumps >> >> I don't see how it can stand for line six when it is part of line six. >> >> Blessings, >> Linda Sue Grimes >> Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C >> >> >>> ellipsis stand in for things that are left out. in this poem the >>> ellipsis is standing in for line 6, which is missing. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: >>> >>>> how? >>>> >>>> Blessings, >>>> Linda Sue Grimes >>>> Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:31 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> it does have fourteen lines. that's what the ellipsis gets you to. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Or is it because it is as completely not a sonnet as a poem can be >>>>>> that >>>>>> looks on the page like it might be a sonnet? >>>>>> Ummm... it doesn't even look like it wants to be a sonnet. >>>>>> Well, I at first thought it had fourteen lines. . . . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --Bob G. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Dec 20 15:38:34 2006 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:38:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EF527DF-2793-43EC-91AE-B0B8498FF70E@earthlink.net> Quite right, there's no slanted line. I have the original right here in front of me. What may seem to some to be a slanted line may be the remains of a fly that, squashed by a bureaucrat with a rolled up sheaf of papers, fell into a working "machine a ?crire" and changed Tuttle to Buttle, my memory, as always, changing Robert DeNiro to Bruce Willis in the role of Tuttle, the freelance heating consultant/repairman. My favorite Christmas movie . . . ah. Hal "Take what you can use and let the rest go by." --Ken Kesey Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com halvard at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Dec 20, 2006, at 3:04 PM, jfq at myuw.net wrote: > I don't think there's a slanted line, although I don't have the > original in front of me so I'm just going off of Ron Silliman's > transcription. I take the ellipsis to include a slanted line. I > think a lot of what's going on with that ellipsis is Berrigan's > sense of humor. Many of the poems in The Sonnets are composed of > cutups of earlier poems that Berrigan didn't like. From that point > of view, the whole set of poems is constructed of pieces of other > poems, and replacing a line that he didn't like from a cut up > procedure(maybe) is what I take that ellipsis to be doing. It's > almost like bits like that ellipsis and a few other items I can > think of from the sonnets are like "Under Construction" signs > hanging off the poems, giving the reader a cue that these poems are > assembled as much as they are written. > > I said in my review of the complete poems (Rattle, Summer 06), > which is not the best piece of critical writing I've ever done I'm > sad to say, that I had a sensation reading long sets of poems from > the book that there was a way in which the poems felt like they > were reading me, that is, that I was interacting with the text in > an unusual way. I think part of that has to do with the jokes in > the poems like that ellipsis inviting the reader to scratch his > head for a moment until the realization dawns that Berrigan is > joshing him a bit. > > To take it a step further, a lot of Berrigan's poems play with the > idea of form and what it means for a poem to be in a form. He even > invented a lot of Forms that while not using strict metrical or > rhyme rules like forms are traditionally conceived, do have > compositional rules that are interesting and give things a > continuity that might otherwise not be apparent. To take another > example that throws a little more light Berrigan's sense of humor, > my favorite of his poems "Things to do on Speed" is assembled from > the text of a Life magazine article about speed addicts. It's a > "Things to Do" poem, which is a form that Berrigan used a lot, and > the basic compositional rule (adapted, I think, from the aleatoric > compositional procedures that Berrigan learned from Mac Low and > Cage) is that the poem should be a set of things that a person > should do under certain circumstances. Other forms that Berrigan > invented include the "10 Things" list poem which generally doesn't > have ten things on it, and the "People who Died" poem which, > according to Notley's end notes in the collected poems, Berrigan > considered a form that absolutely everyone could and did write for > themselves over their life. That's the poem, btw, that inspired the > Jim Carroll Band's biggest hit song "People Who Died." > > Which is all just to say, I think, that reading Berrigan is a > process of getting to know him as the poems get to know you. And by > that i mean, as the poems learn about the reader, they feel like > they present things to you in different ways, and the "unfinished" > quality of a lot of the poems, contributed by the ellipsis in > Sonnet 50, adds to that illusion that even though they are fixed on > the page, new things can always come out of them. > > > > On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> >>> it's because the ellipsis includes an elided line break. >> Okay, I finally got it. I missed the slanted line (thought I >> knows what them things means). I think the poem would be better >> (i.e., worse) without the slanted line. Now that I think on it, >> what's the point of the ellipsis? The slanted line says this line >> over, on to the next. Also, if slanted lines are taken to >> indicate line breaks, they won't work as clearly to mean "line" >> the way a dash would, a dash being a line. (Just going on about >> this mainly to get it straight in my own mind.) >> >> linelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelineline >> >> Another sonnet. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Dec 20 20:27:28 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:27:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: Message-ID: <00a201c7249f$4169ef10$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I retreat to thinking the ellipsis should be in a line by itself--but thanks for continuing to discuss. You have me much more interested in Berrigan than I was. Don't tell David Graham, but I may even read a poem or two of his. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:04 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C >I don't think there's a slanted line, although I don't have the original in >front of me so I'm just going off of Ron Silliman's transcription. I take >the ellipsis to include a slanted line. I think a lot of what's going on >with that ellipsis is Berrigan's sense of humor. Many of the poems in The >Sonnets are composed of cutups of earlier poems that Berrigan didn't like. >From that point of view, the whole set of poems is constructed of pieces of >other poems, and replacing a line that he didn't like from a cut up >procedure(maybe) is what I take that ellipsis to be doing. It's almost like >bits like that ellipsis and a few other items I can think of from the >sonnets are like "Under Construction" signs hanging off the poems, giving >the reader a cue that these poems are assembled as much as they are >written. > > I said in my review of the complete poems (Rattle, Summer 06), which is > not the best piece of critical writing I've ever done I'm sad to say, that > I had a sensation reading long sets of poems from the book that there was > a way in which the poems felt like they were reading me, that is, that I > was interacting with the text in an unusual way. I think part of that has > to do with the jokes in the poems like that ellipsis inviting the reader > to scratch his head for a moment until the realization dawns that Berrigan > is joshing him a bit. > > To take it a step further, a lot of Berrigan's poems play with the idea of > form and what it means for a poem to be in a form. He even invented a lot > of Forms that while not using strict metrical or rhyme rules like forms > are traditionally conceived, do have compositional rules that are > interesting and give things a continuity that might otherwise not be > apparent. To take another example that throws a little more light > Berrigan's sense of humor, my favorite of his poems "Things to do on > Speed" is assembled from the text of a Life magazine article about speed > addicts. It's a "Things to Do" poem, which is a form that Berrigan used a > lot, and the basic compositional rule (adapted, I think, from the > aleatoric compositional procedures that Berrigan learned from Mac Low and > Cage) is that the poem should be a set of things that a person should do > under certain circumstances. Other forms that Berrigan invented include > the "10 Things" list poem which generally doesn't have ten things on it, > and the "People who Died" poem which, according to Notley's end notes in > the collected poems, Berrigan considered a form that absolutely everyone > could and did write for themselves over their life. That's the poem, btw, > that inspired the Jim Carroll Band's biggest hit song "People Who Died." > > Which is all just to say, I think, that reading Berrigan is a process of > getting to know him as the poems get to know you. And by that i mean, as > the poems learn about the reader, they feel like they present things to > you in different ways, and the "unfinished" quality of a lot of the poems, > contributed by the ellipsis in Sonnet 50, adds to that illusion that even > though they are fixed on the page, new things can always come out of them. > > > > On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> >>> >>> it's because the ellipsis includes an elided line break. >>> >> Okay, I finally got it. I missed the slanted line (thought I knows what >> them things means). I think the poem would be better (i.e., worse) >> without the slanted line. Now that I think on it, what's the point of >> the ellipsis? The slanted line says this line over, on to the next. >> Also, if slanted lines are taken to indicate line breaks, they won't work >> as clearly to mean "line" the way a dash would, a dash being a line. >> (Just going on about this mainly to get it straight in my own mind.) >> >> linelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelinelineline >> >> Another sonnet. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chris.lott at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 21:30:46 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:30:46 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C In-Reply-To: <00a201c7249f$4169ef10$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <00a201c7249f$4169ef10$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612201830v6f5be329qaaebdebf36e57eb4@mail.gmail.com> On 12/20/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > I retreat to thinking the ellipsis should be in a line by itself--but thanks > for continuing to discuss. You have me much more interested in Berrigan > than I was. Don't tell David Graham, but I may even read a poem or two of > his. I'm so lost in the irony that I can't keep track. Do you think Mr. Graham was trying to get you to read Berrigan or subtly mocking him (and Ron "Super-Size" Silliman)... and is there a difference? :) c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Dec 20 22:05:13 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:05:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: <00a201c7249f$4169ef10$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <9b1b9dab0612201830v6f5be329qaaebdebf36e57eb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000701c724ac$d73bbde0$32b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 12/20/06, Bob Grumman wrote: >> I retreat to thinking the ellipsis should be in a line by itself--but >> thanks >> for continuing to discuss. You have me much more interested in Berrigan >> than I was. Don't tell David Graham, but I may even read a poem or two >> of >> his. > > I'm so lost in the irony that I can't keep track. Do you think Mr. > Graham was trying to get you to read Berrigan or subtly mocking him > (and Ron "Super-Size" Silliman)... and is there a difference? :) > > c The professor sometimes acts like he thinks I read just about nothing. My joke is a little strained. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Dec 20 23:21:39 2006 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:21:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berragain Message-ID: The professor sometimes acts like he thinks I read just about nothing. My joke is a little strained. --Bob G. ---------------------- Actually, Bob, the professor merely calls you to task occasionally when you spout off about books that you also admit not having read. Fascinating discussion about Berrigan's sonnet, in any event, and I don't mean that sarcastically. He's one of those poets I just don't get--but many smart readers seem to rave about him. I was just trying to see if I could smoke out some fans to see what they like about his sonnet, and I guess I did. I'll be going offline for a couple weeks now--so please no one say anything too fascinating while I'm gone. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suelin7184 at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 06:46:34 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 05:46:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berragain References: Message-ID: <002201c724f5$ab20f600$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Dear David, Your link is broken http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Blessings, Linda Sue Grimes Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry & Views Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:21 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Berragain The professor sometimes acts like he thinks I read just about nothing. My joke is a little strained. --Bob G. ---------------------- Actually, Bob, the professor merely calls you to task occasionally when you spout off about books that you also admit not having read. Fascinating discussion about Berrigan's sonnet, in any event, and I don't mean that sarcastically. He's one of those poets I just don't get--but many smart readers seem to rave about him. I was just trying to see if I could smoke out some fans to see what they like about his sonnet, and I guess I did. I'll be going offline for a couple weeks now--so please no one say anything too fascinating while I'm gone. ========================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ========================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Dec 21 07:00:19 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:00:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of best sonnets of 20th C References: <00a201c7249f$4169ef10$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <9b1b9dab0612201830v6f5be329qaaebdebf36e57eb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002a01c724f7$97362aa0$52a33852@ANNY> As Bob says, you can read his interview on blogs here: http://lowres.uno.edu/classes/cyberlit/papers/ballardini/BOB%20GRUMMAN.html (quoting:) "Some of them have been very hostile, which is great, for I like to argue." :-) and as you can see from here: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=162 Bob Grumman writes Sonnets! In this case he (methinks) is most grateful to David Graham, and probably also S.S.Silliman for _Being_ Happiest - also to David Graham for his holidays - with a pic I took yesterday Your faithful Editor Anny From: "Chris Lott" Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 3:30 AM > On 12/20/06, Bob Grumman wrote: >> I retreat to thinking the ellipsis should be in a line by itself--but thanks >> for continuing to discuss. You have me much more interested in Berrigan >> than I was. Don't tell David Graham, but I may even read a poem or two of >> his. > > I'm so lost in the irony that I can't keep track. Do you think Mr. > Graham was trying to get you to read Berrigan or subtly mocking him > (and Ron "Super-Size" Silliman)... and is there a difference? :) > > c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 35537 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Dec 21 08:10:00 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:10:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berragain References: Message-ID: <001801c72501$545f1160$63b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry & Views Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Berragain The professor sometimes acts like he thinks I read just about nothing. My joke is a little strained. --Bob G. ---------------------- Actually, Bob, the professor merely calls you to task occasionally when you spout off about books that you also admit not having read. More or less true--except that in most cases I've read poems from the book or its author, and in all cases know something about what I'm talking about, even books I haven't read. Sometimes it's possible for a perceptive person to know more about a book he hasn't read than an unperceptive person who has read it does. Believe it or not. Happy Holidays, David. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.lott at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 11:34:58 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:34:58 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berragain In-Reply-To: <001801c72501$545f1160$63b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <001801c72501$545f1160$63b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612210834y5c0e6169p69f70a3a0b52828@mail.gmail.com> On 12/21/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > Sometimes it's possible for a perceptive person > to know more about a book he hasn't read than an unperceptive person who has > read it does. Believe it or not. And sometimes people assume, based on their pre-conceptions, things about something they've never seen/read/heard and then, surprise, fulfill that prophecy when they do actually come across the work because they made up their minds well beforehand and were never in danger of being surprised. Not YOU, of course, but some people, sometimes... the point is: without actually experiencing the art, one can never *really* know the difference. Some are more comfortable with that than others. c From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 21 11:48:07 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:48:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] fascinating In-Reply-To: <200612211139.kBLBdY8X028133@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <779125.16946.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> David wrote, "I'll be going offline for a couple weeks now--so please no one say anything too fascinating while I'm gone." I won't. I promise. Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Dec 21 13:23:20 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:23:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] by Aaron Belz Message-ID: <002701c7252d$17ca7a10$0ead3452@ANNY> I am wondering if any of you might spare a buck for Observable. I'll list your name and URL, if so. http://observable.org/dollar/ Or even a few bucks. Thanks, Aaron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Thu Dec 21 17:27:53 2006 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:27:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: with thanks to Crisman In-Reply-To: <200612170829.kBH8TU8X032123@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200612170829.kBH8TU8X032123@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: First of all: Barry, it is splendid that you are still on this list. And: Bob, thanks for initially agreeing to play the little game I devised -- it is sporting of you. It isn't exactly clear whether it is the game or your remark that you believe reduces to "I disagree with you because..." -- As usual I seem to have waited until it no longer matters -- but, assuming you meant the former, then I must tell you that you've misinterpreted the spirit of the thing. In fact, I haven't made up my mind about Transtr?mer, and do not agree or disagree with anything said about him. I seem to have as little exposure to him as you have. I take ignorance as a precondition-- but I don't consciously either tolerate it (except to the extent that mortality sets boundaries on how much I can learn) or substitute superstition for it (since that would transform it consciously into stupidity), and that was why I thought it would be interesting for both of us to play the game. One huge impediment is that I cannot speak Swedish. How much of a poem is translatable seems to vary by poem and poet, but not having the original sound or native sense, it is impossible to tell how much has come across. > Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:15:25 -0500 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: with thanks to Crisman > >> >> The CrisMan wrote: >> >>> The question "What's this guy do >>> that's special?" must be changed subtly to "What is my esthetic >>> reaction to what these translators say this guy does?" >> >> My reaction to this rule: "ah." Muscles unclench. Somebody's >> got my back. Crismas approacheth, images of Jesus and Rudolph >> rampant...but what is it these guys do that's special? >> >> love to almost-all from a devoted lurker, >> >> Barry > > I wonder if the Chrisman will challenge you to a game for making an > offhand > remark (one that reduces to "I agree with you") like the one he's > challenged > me to for a similarly offhand one (that reduced to "I disagree with > you > because it doesn't seem to me the guy is doing anything special"). > Interestingly, no one has mentioned anything the guy is doing that's > special. > > Anyway, I'm sure dozens have your back on this one, Barry. It's > possible > that no one has mine. Why do I find that pleasant to think about? > > Merry Christmas to you, too. > > --Bob G. > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Dec 21 17:35:58 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:35:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berragain References: <001801c72501$545f1160$63b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <9b1b9dab0612210834y5c0e6169p69f70a3a0b52828@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008001c72550$642e3630$63b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 12/21/06, Bob Grumman wrote: >> Sometimes it's possible for a perceptive person >> to know more about a book he hasn't read than an unperceptive person who >> has >> read it does. Believe it or not. > > And sometimes people assume, based on their pre-conceptions, things > about something they've never seen/read/heard and then, surprise, > fulfill that prophecy when they do actually come across the work > because they made up their minds well beforehand and were never in > danger of being surprised. > > Not YOU, of course, but some people, sometimes... the point is: > without actually experiencing the art, one can never *really* know the > difference. Some are more comfortable with that than others. > > c It's a complicated subject. I think one *can* really know (*sufficiently*) what's in some books without reading them--based on what others have said about them. Certainly, a partial readng of many books is more than enough to let a perceptive reader know sufficiently what's in them. And one, as I suggested, can read a book ten times and still not know what's in it. Each of us has to decide how much time to allot to exploring books, and do the best he can with the inevitably partial experience of many of them he has. Bottome line, for me, if someone thinks something I say about a book is wrong, he needs to say why; whether I've read all, part or none of the book is irrelevant--as is whether what I say about a book I've read is based on my inability to transcend my preconceptions. I think my criticism over the years indicates that I do almost always enter a work I coment on with preconceptions, but that I often change my mind about it. --Bob G. As for preconceptions, it's easy to claim someone From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Dec 21 19:06:16 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:06:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: with thanks to Crisman References: <200612170829.kBH8TU8X032123@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <00a601c7255d$06cdb800$63b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > And: Bob, thanks for initially agreeing to play the little game I > devised -- it is sporting of you. I went on to play it, Crisman. Did you miss the post? > It isn't exactly clear whether it is the game or your remark that you > believe reduces to "I disagree with you because..." -- I think where you misinterpreted what I said, or was trying to say, is with "you." I disagreed with David who lauded Transtromer. --Bob G. From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Dec 22 02:15:58 2006 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 23:15:58 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay In-Reply-To: References: <006001c7237f$8a2f6890$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <017C78AF-DD5E-4008-8043-AE18F117F6B3@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C9E22AE-0B20-435A-8EAC-D9213A33F258@earthlink.net> thanks suzanne On Dec 19, 2006, at 5:29 PM, Suzanne Burns wrote: > > > On 12/19/06, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > I'm curious what you see in it though... > > > My main point was that she takes the idea Gregg is trying to get > across and does a better and more precise job of it, particularly > anchoring it in a real discussion of poetry. > > I don't necessarily agree with everything Karr has to say, mind you > (e.g., I happen to really love Merrill), but I found her approach > to to the subject to be much more insightful, more thought out, > more rigorous and much more willing to take a real position as > opposed to making vague or general pronouncements. > > Suzanne > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Fri Dec 22 10:33:35 2006 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:33:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing =?iso8859-1?q?E=B7ratio?= Issue 8 Message-ID: <200612221533.kBMFXZW5012762@mail21.atl.registeredsite.com> The new issue of E?ratio is now online. http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com With poetry by: Anne Gorrick, Marci Nelligan, Donald Wellman, Jody Porter, Nicholas Manning, Chad Sweeney, Christine Hamm, MTC Cronin, Amanda Laughtland, David Chikhladze, Jonathan Minton, and Scott Wilkerson "Though we are continually being hurt owing to the narrowness of the reality in which we dwell, we blame life, and do not see the necessity of finding absolutely new standpoints." --Maurice Nicoll E?ratio 8 http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Edited by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino From chris.lott at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 12:08:27 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 08:08:27 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berragain In-Reply-To: <008001c72550$642e3630$63b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <001801c72501$545f1160$63b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <9b1b9dab0612210834y5c0e6169p69f70a3a0b52828@mail.gmail.com> <008001c72550$642e3630$63b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612220908u5b9f5632ta9b8fbb2b597c320@mail.gmail.com> On 12/21/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > And one, as I > suggested, can read a book ten times and still not know what's in it. Fair enough, but my point remains that until you do read a book at least once you can't really be sure, can you? I mean, how do you know the people you are then relying on actually read the book and that the book they are guessing about it like the other books they think it is and aren't aesthetic responses incredibly complex and subject to personal vagaries that can make even the well-read person shake his or her head in surprise at something they unexpectedly find an affinity for? Those are the greatest moments in reading, in my opinion-- when something defies expectations or genre or the critical word of mouth or historical time etc... Without that it comes down to trust, faith, etc. that one's guesses are pretty accurate. And I can understand going with that, I suppose, but I don't understand the presumption of proposing them to others as evidence for some kind of argument. For me, given the choice between someone commenting who has read the book and someone who has not, I'm more likely to choose the first, even if they are less astute. Then again, look at Silliman-- he is happy enough reading some books ten times and still not knowing what's in them (though I suspect his lack of apprehension across a wide swathe of poetry comes because he, as it sounds like you sometimes do, is talking about things he has not read, having determined ahead of time that they are not for him) and I would definitely trust your surmises over his lengthy-readings had I to choose :) c From chris.lott at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 12:13:17 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 08:13:17 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612220913r71f0ac13v5d863205194df0f8@mail.gmail.com> I find the value in these kinds of explanations of poetry and writing to be that they are little philosophical confections-- works of art in and of themselves. That value has precious little to do with their actual, direct, material application to being a writer. I suspect many of us are here because we believe in a kind of communication that goes beyond the denotation of the words, as most mathematicians I know have a practically mystical appreciation of numbers and the "art" that informs higher math. Sometimes things just ring true without being able to figure out exactly why. Gregg's essay doesn't rank that high on my scale of such things, but reading it and being disappointed that there aren't concrete rules and practices and directions is like directing someone to read Keats and having them complain that it isn't like Dr. Phil. c From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 22 13:09:34 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:09:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <200612221700.kBMH048X028439@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <778537.59435.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "One huge impediment is that I cannot speak Swedish. How much of a poem is translatable seems to vary by poem and poet, but not having the original sound or native sense, it is impossible to tell how much has come across." Alas, alack. This perception has done so much harm to translation: we read them, and think we are trying to read some other text "through" them. Why can these translations not stand alone, as poems in their own right? The very best poetic translations, after all, are so much akin to rewritings. New poems, built on top of an old one, but why not forget the ruins under the foundation? Alternatively, one might wonder what's under the foundations of any old poem, as though it were a mistranslation, already. Yours, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Dec 22 18:07:18 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:07:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gregg--& Small Press Review Column on Lott, Snider References: <9b1b9dab0612220913r71f0ac13v5d863205194df0f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009a01c7261d$f247fe60$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I find the value in these kinds of explanations of poetry and writing > to be that they are little philosophical confections-- works of art in > and of themselves. That value has precious little to do with their > actual, direct, material application to being a writer. I suspect many > of us are here because we believe in a kind of communication that goes > beyond the denotation of the words, as most mathematicians I know have > a practically mystical appreciation of numbers and the "art" that > informs higher math. Sometimes things just ring true without being > able to figure out exactly why. > Gregg's essay doesn't rank that high on my scale of such things, but > reading it and being disappointed that there aren't concrete rules and > practices and directions is like directing someone to read Keats and > having them complain that it isn't like Dr. Phil. > > c But Gregg's piece is surely an attempt at instruction, and instruction should not be gush. I tried to think what to call it. Not philosophy, which is rational. Because of my tendency to neologize, I came up with "effusitry"--but a few minutes later realized the proper term for *parts* of her essay is "rhapsody." I like one or two of her rhapsodic passages. Maybe if she'd called her essay "My Mountain and My Poetry," or something, and just said that she loved the Nature she spent her childhood in and thought she should get the same kind of charge out of any poem she read, or put it somehow into any she wrote, I could nod, and give her essay a pass. But she seems to be telling would-be writers to find a mountain in order to write effective poetry without saying how. I found other things wrong with her essay however it is characterize. I mention some of them in one of my recent blog entries. I quote my Internet pal Tim Willette on it there, too. No more on this topic. I got Important Work to do! Before I end, though, I thought you should know that the latest issue of Small Press Review is finally running the column I wrote about your blog, Chris--and Mike Snider's. I'll eventually make it available at my website (I hope). Oh, and I also want to respond to your other post of earlier today. My only point in the thread, really, is that the value of an opinion has nothing to do with what the one advancing it has read. It deserves consideration as a plank in a discussion or argument to the degree that it is intelligent, not to the degree that it is certified. Hard not to agree with your, "For me, given the choice between someone commenting who has read the book and someone who has not, I'm more likely to choose the first, even if they are less astute," because of it's "more likely." Still, I think of how very little I desire to read any mainstream critic I know of even though I'm sure he's read whatever he's comenting on two or more times. Well, except for simple information. I guess I just feel that there are a few people worth reading or listening to regardless of what they've read or not read, and a whole bunch not worth reading or listening to no matter what they've read or not read. But I suppose I'd have to agree that I'd rather read one of the worthy person's comments on something he's read than on something he hasn't. Usually. I instantly think of the value of reading on something he's heard about that isn't worth reading but worth commenting on. No more on this, really really . . . I hope. --Bob G. No more on this, either. From chris.lott at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 22:34:16 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:34:16 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gregg--& Small Press Review Column on Lott, Snider In-Reply-To: <009a01c7261d$f247fe60$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <9b1b9dab0612220913r71f0ac13v5d863205194df0f8@mail.gmail.com> <009a01c7261d$f247fe60$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612221934q4d8124f7lb97f8383c98da547@mail.gmail.com> On 12/22/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > But Gregg's piece is surely an attempt at instruction, and instruction > should not be gush. I don't know what Gregg meant-- I don't know what most writers on writing intend their pieces to be. I have a hard time believing most really believe them to be instructional. Regardless, *I* don't care because I don't read them that way... and they are thus much more enjoyable and not nearly as vexing as you seem to find them :) > No more on this topic. I got Important Work to do! Before I end, though, I > thought you should know that the latest issue of Small Press Review is > finally running the column I wrote about your blog, Chris--and Mike > Snider's. I'll eventually make it available at my website (I hope). well-- I had no idea such a thing was in the works. I don't know if I can get Small Press Review anywhere here, so I'll keep an eye on your site for it. > Oh, and I also want to respond to your other post of earlier today. My only > point in the thread, really, is that the value of an opinion has nothing to > do with what the one advancing it has read. It deserves consideration as a > plank in a discussion or argument to the degree that it is intelligent, not > to the degree that it is certified. I don't think we disagree much, really. I just enjoy talking-- and thereby thinking-- about such things. Talking about it out loud helps me think more clearly about it, even if such clarity isn't reflected in the writing... Maybe I'm too much of an optimist. I am repeatedly abused when giving authors yet another chance after they've disappointed me before. But then those rare, surprising moments of pleasure can be so great... I just give in to the temptation. And I'm certainly less prescient and knowledgeable-- I don't speak too much about things I haven't seen or read, but most of the time I am proven horribly wrong. c From editor at pavementsaw.org Sat Dec 23 00:13:51 2006 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 21:13:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Pavement Saw Chapbook contest Deadline postmark 12/30 Message-ID: <20061223051351.18970.qmail@web83110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Since no one replied to my message here goes-- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pavement Saw Chapbook Contest <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone is allowed to submit regardless of previous publication history. All entrants are mailed two free chapbooks or a full length book either of which is the cost of the entry fee, if you have a preference on what we should send, let us know. The chapbooks are published in an edition of 400 copies. While chapbooks rarely receive exposure, we are the _only_ press that has recently had our chapbooks reviewed in Poets and Writers, Publishers Weekly, The Georgia Review, Small Press Review and many others. Previous winners have had subsequent full length books published by a bevy of publishers including University of Georgia, Hanging Loose Press, Curbstone Press, Cleveland State University Press, Bear Star Press, and Blazevox Books. $500 and 50 copies of the winning chapbook will be awarded for the finest collection of poetry received. Submit up to 32 pages of poetry. Include a cover letter with your name, address, phone number, e-mail, publication credits, a brief biography and the title of the chapbook. Include a cover page with your contact information and the chapbook title. Include a second page with the chapbook title only. Do not include your name on any pages inside the manuscript except for the first title page. No need for a contents page. All chapbooks are selected anonymously. Entry fee: $12. Make all checks payable to Pavement Saw Press. Every entrant will receive the entry fee in our books which we will pay to mail. Do not include an SASE. All manuscripts will be recycled. Manuscripts will be considered until December 30th, 2006 for the prize. This year the editor will be the judge and, as it should be, he promises not to chose former students, former or potential sexual partners, press interns, or people that can make him famous. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Winners since 1996: Joshua Corey Compostition Marble Knute Skinner The Other Shoe Lisa Samuels War Holdings F. J. Bergmann Sauce Robert John Bradley Add Musk Here Amy King The People Instruments Will Nixon The Fish are Laughing Shelley Stenhouse Pants David Brooks Right Livelihood Douglas Goetsch Wherever You Want Joshua Mc Kinney Permutations of the Gallery <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Contest PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Sat Dec 23 00:38:40 2006 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 21:38:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Final Offer for PSP chapbooks and journals Message-ID: <743931.31598.qm@web83110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Final offer for Pavement Saw Chapbooks, these were printed in editions of 430 to 500 copies and now I am at the end of the runs of all of our titles, even those published this year. The cost is $6 each for the chapbooks. The following chapbooks I have 20 or less copies left of: Joshua Corey Compostition Marble Mary Weems Tampon Class The following chapbooks I have 5 or less copies left of: Lisa Samuels War Holdings F. J. Bergmann Sauce Robert John Bradley Add Musk Here Amy King The People Instruments Knute Skinner The Other Shoe Will Nixon The Fish are Laughing Shelley Stenhouse Pants David Brooks Right Livelihood Rose M. Smith Shooting the Strays Gina Tabasso Disrobing Mark Taksa The Root Naton Leslie Their Shadows are Dark Daughters Our yearly literary journal with a print run of 551 copies is also nearly out of print. There are five copies or less ($7 each) of Issue 3 Issue 4 Issue 5 Issue 6 Issue 7 We have 12 copies ($12 each) of: Issue 9 The Last LAFT (double vispo issue, 100 pages) We have 30 copies or less ($7 each) of: Issue 8 Issue 10 More info about the titles is available on the website. Cost is amount listed plus $2 shipping for the first title, $1 for each additional. You can pay on the website via paypal, pay me directly via paypal (at info at pavementsaw.org ) or send me an e-mail and work out other arrangements. As long as there is a listing on the website with a link to paypal we still have copies. This will be our final notice about these 22 titles before they go out of print. Thanks for keeping us thriving-- Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Sat Dec 23 12:46:36 2006 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 11:46:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=3A_Re=3A_Transtr=F6mer?= In-Reply-To: <200612221700.kBMH048X028439@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200612221700.kBMH048X028439@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Guess I missed that post, can you resend, or tell me the date? If I read it, I promise I will post my playing of it also. > Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:06:16 -0500 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: with thanks to Crisman > >> And: Bob, thanks for initially agreeing to play the little game I >> devised -- it is sporting of you. > > I went on to play it, Crisman. Did you miss the post? > >> It isn't exactly clear whether it is the game or your remark that you >> believe reduces to "I disagree with you because..." -- > > I think where you misinterpreted what I said, or was trying to say, > is with > "you." I disagreed with David who lauded Transtromer. > > --Bob G. > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Dec 23 13:24:06 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:24:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Crisman=27s_Game_re=3A_Transtr=F6mer?= References: <200612221700.kBMH048X028439@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <00cf01c726bf$899e4b10$3bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> This is from the 16th, Crisman. I unexpectedly have a few moments, so will try your game, CC. > Let's see if we can make this an interesting discussion. Here are the > rules: 1. You must think, really think before you say something; I always think before saying anything, but will try to pause and think some more before saying anything here. My problem is not not thinking but in not having sufficient data to come to an reasonable conclusion. But it isn't really a problem because I'm aware of it. > 2. As you read these 3 versions of a Transtr?mer poem, you must actually > pay attention to your own esthetic reactions; That goes without saying. 3. You must > report what is your esthetic reaction to a particular word, phrase or > image; That doesn't sound easy but I'll try. 4. You must not comment on what is NOT in the poem, only what > is in it; That's poor literary criticism, but what you want here, which is something different. So I'll go along with it. 5. You can only voice your own esthetic reaction, and are > strictly disallowed from making political comments or any other comments > other than A. your own esthetic experience, or B. comments about your own > esthetic experience. I consider it one of my flaws that I almost never voice others' aesthetic reactions, just my own. I almost never bring politics in my engagement with a poem, unless in response to politics in the poem. 6. You are allowed to comment on > the variation between translations, knowing, but not caring, that these > are not about Transtr?mer, but are about the text actually in the new-po > post (the Object of Discussion); Okay. 7. these translations are > the only object of discussion; Right. What I'm doing now is in advance of the discussion. 8. The question "What's this guy do > that's special?" must be changed subtly to "What is my esthetic reaction > to what these translators say this guy does?" I'm not sure I understand this so what I'll do is express my aesthetic reaction to what the translators do (and therefore indicate what they think the guy does). 9. In the > process of following the rules, your original question will be answered, > but not in a way to prove anything, since esthetic discussions never > prove anything. Proving something would be breaking rules #2,3,4, and 5. > Ready? As already stated, I can't see how this will come about, but I'm ready. > Here are the texts: [note that the May Swenson translation appears to > have an error in line 6] > > Breathing Room: July > > Lying on his back under tall trees > he is also up there. He rills into thousands of twigs and branches, I like "rills," a word I don't know. Oh, I do know it, sort of--small valley, I thought, but it's small brook. Anyway, I understood it in the context as airly joining the twigs and branches of the trees. Liquidly, like a brook, I now add, having checked the dictionary. My aesthetic response is--what do you want? just that I like it? Good image for carrying a thinking or a soul into Nature. > is swayed back and forth, > as if in a catapult seat outflung in slow motion. Happy motion, happily imaged. The slow motion increases the pleasure, the serenity. > Standing down by the jetties he squints across the waters. Okay, the person's on a pleasant jaunt in a countryside. That's not an aesthetic reaction but I have to set-up my aesthetic reactions, don't I? Here, I'm not having an aesthetic reaction. The language is humdrum, the scene humdrum. But not unpleasantly in either case. > The docks age sooner than men. (Has to be "age," so I changed it. > Made of splintered silver gray planks, and with stones in their > bellies. > The blinding light rips its way straight through. Nice postcard scene. "The blinding light" I guess is reflection of the water of the lake or ocean. It doesn't dazzle me but I don't mind it. I sort of like the image of the docks aging faster than men. It's an odd remark; therefore it makes one think/feel the aging more, and about the water and weather that causes it. > Sailing all day in an open boat I have no aesthetic response to the words, but the image of sailing all day picks up nicely on the opening image of, in effect, sailing with the twigs and branches. > over the glittering bights, "bights" is an odd word (to me), so effectively freshening here--that is, it makes me feel good aesthetically. And makes up for "glittering," which comes close to annoying me, or giving me aesthetic pain, because a standard poetic word. > he will fall asleep at last inside a blue lamp > while islands like great nocturnal moths creep over the glass. My aesthetic reaction to this is inseparable from what you might call my intellectual reaction. I like the idea of his falling asleep inside the lamp the sky makes around him, but am confused somewhat by the islands, so they cause me some aesthetic discomfort. They suggest he's submerged in a dream like the body of water he's been sailing on. Okay, that works, I guess--he becomes such a part of the water world he's been sailing (as he earlier became a part of the trees overhead) that he enters it. He became a brook up into the twigs and branches, now he's become a lake or sea whose islands move above him. So I find the pay-off aesthetically nice. > Translation by May Swenson > > Breathing Space July > > The man lying on his back under the high trees > is up there too. He rills out in thousandfold twigs, > sways to and fro, > sits in an ejector seat that releases in slow motion. "High" may add a little to the exhiliartion of becoming one with the trees. I'm somewhat unpleasantly jolted by the "ejector seat that releases," which sounds too mechanical to me, so without the happy organic flow that Swenson's version had, due mainly to "outflung." > The man down by the jetties narrows his eyes at the water. I'm confused because in the first version I thought there was only one man in the poem. > The jetties grow old more quickly than people. > They have silver grey timber and stones in their stomachs. > The blinding light beats right in. About the same aesthetic reaction to this text as to Swenson's--with a preference for "grow old more quickly" to "age sooner," which, now that I think more about it, doesn't quite make sense since everything begins to age as soon as born. > The man traveling all day in an open boat > over the glittering straits "traveling" would feel aesthetically neither good nor bad here if I didn't remember "sailing," which is much more exciting, and seems to me to involve the persona more than "traveling." And it brings back the slow motion sail into the trees. > Will sleep at last inside a blue lamp > while the islands creep like large moths across the glass. This again seems enjoyable, but not as viscerally rich as Swenson's version. > Translation by Robert Fulton > > Breathing Space July > > The man who lies on his back under huge trees > is also up in them. He branches out into thousands of tiny branches. > He sways back and forth, > he sits in a catapult chair that hurtles forward in slow motion. This affects me about the way Swenson's version did, except that I like hers, with its "outflung," better. > The man who stands down at the dock screws up his eyes against the water. > Docks get older faster than men. > They have silver-gray posts and boulders in their gut. > The dazzling light drives straight in. Another confusion--this one about the light, which I thought was up from the water, driving straight in. So a different image, and okay, I guess. > The man who spends the whole day in an open boat > moving over the luminous bays > will fall asleep at last inside the shade of his blue lamp > as the islands crawl like huge moths over the globe. Again, I miss the sailing. And now I envision three men, and realize three men were in the second version. Or "the man" at three times in his life. All three versions are a bit confusing in this respect--the first because the persona could not have spent all day sailing if he lay under the trees at one point. I have trouble connecting the dock scene with the other two unless it's one man going from lying under the trees to the dock, then to his sailboat. That is, the first and last stanzas lead to some oceanic experience that seem, for me, to fuse; the second does not. This time around Bly's rendition doesn't suck, for me. But his final stanza seems to state a generality I can't believe in and so can't sympathize with enough to experience much aesthetic delight. Swenson's man is an individual whom I can feel might experience sailing the way the poem's man does. Her version flows, the others don't. Oh, and Bly has the man inside the lampshade, not inside the lamp, which is much more logical than the other two versions, but cost it the deep mystery the others have. In all versions a man or men are flowing through the world while the world flows through them. A fine expression of serenity. > Translation by Robert Bly End of my attempt to play your game, CC. I don't feel I was doing anything I don't always do when reading a poem knowing I will be more or less explicating it--so I probably didn't play the game right. One note: I find that I don't, perhaps can't, think harder than usual. What I do is think and express my thought, then return a rethink it, and--if necessary--re-express it. I didn't do much of that this time. I don't feel I had to think really hard to get into the poem--mainly because surrealism and oneness with Nature, etc., are common in the poetry I've been most involved with over the years. I didn't learn what the guy is doing that's special--really special. So that part of the experiment was a failure. Now, why don't you play your game, CC? --Bob G. From ccooley at overdomain.com Sat Dec 23 14:48:50 2006 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:48:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=3A_Alex=27s_comment_re=3A_transla?= =?iso-8859-1?q?tion_/_Transtr=F6mer_?= In-Reply-To: <200612231700.kBNH058X019660@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200612231700.kBNH058X019660@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20E988F0-97D2-4DBE-AE96-ADF94F2E0C73@overdomain.com> I doubt that I'm adding to the accumulated knowledge on the subject, ... ;) that said, You represent one philosophy of translation as I understand it, that is, that the translation should be a new and beautiful edifice in its own right. Another school of thought says that the translation should represent the original as accurately as the lexicon and sound palette of second language can manage. There's a lot of room between these two. I haven't done any published translation but I've read enough French and Spanish to see definite difficulties of certain kinds of translations, for example of what I've read Lorca and Rimbaud seem especially difficult, and, to me anyway, sometimes sound silly in English. The most recent translation I read was Ted Hughes' translation of Racine's _Ph?dre_. I do not miss the alexandrine couplets, and only sometimes feel sad about Hughes' English word choices. Here's a poem by Rimbaud and a utilitarian translation by Koch that, if you can't hear the French, makes you wonder why anyone would write it: Fleures D'un gradin d'or - parmi les cordons de soie, les gazes grises, les velours verts et les disques de cristal qui noircissent comme du bronze au soleil, - je vois la digitale s'ouvrir sur un tapis de filigranes d'argent, d'yeux et de chevelures. Des pi?ces d'or jaune sem?es sur l'agate, des piliers d'acajou supportant un d?me d'?meraudes, des bouquets de satin blanc et de fines verges de rubis entourent la rose d'eau. Tels qu'un dieu aux ?normes yeux bleus et aux formes de neige, la mer et le ciel attirent aux terrasses de marbre la foule des jeunes et fortes roses. Flowers From a step of gold -- amid silk cords, grey gauzes, green velvets, and crystal disks which turn black the way bronze does in the sun--I see the foxglove open on a rug of silver filigree, eyes, and flowing hair. The water rose is surrounded by yellow gold coins scattered on agate, mahogany pillars holding up a dome made out of emeralds, bouquets of white satin and thin wands of rubies. Like a god with enormous blue eyes and a body of snow, the ocean and the sky attract the crowd of young and strong roses to the marble terraces. ******* Throughout, Fleurs rings like a gamelan with these sustained tones, such as: 1. D'un gradin d'or (the "d'un, din, d'or") 2. gazes grises ("ahz, eez") 3. velours verts (velours 2 syllables compress into 1: verts) 4. yeux et de chevelures (succession of vowels: eux, de, che, ve, ure) Turns to paste in Koch: 1. step of gold (clunk!) 2. grey gauzes (well, that sounds pretty good) 3. green velvets (eeks!) 4. eyes and flowing hair (runs along, but doesn't ring...) What this exercise demonstrates does not negate what you're saying-- it simply shows that there are limitations to judgments we can make about the original poem when hearing it in English. That's what I was saying about Transtr?mer -- that I could only form judgments of the translations and based on attention to esthetic details. This is more so with the great eary poets -- imagine trying to render Yeats in Russian or Shakespeare in German. Mein gott! > Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:09:34 -0800 (PST) > From: Alexander Dickow > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29 > > "One huge > impediment is that I cannot speak Swedish. How much > of a poem is > translatable seems to vary by poem and poet, but not > having the > original sound or native sense, it is impossible to > tell how much has > come across." > > Alas, alack. This perception has done so much harm to > translation: we read them, and think we are trying to > read some other text "through" them. Why can these > translations not stand alone, as poems in their own > right? The very best poetic translations, after all, > are so much akin to rewritings. New poems, built on > top of an old one, but why not forget the ruins under > the foundation? > Alternatively, one might wonder what's under the > foundations of any old poem, as though it were a > mistranslation, already. > Yours, > Alex > > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 24 13:41:57 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 10:41:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] response to crisman on translation In-Reply-To: <200612241700.kBOH048X011635@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <782421.62080.qm@web35504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Crisman, "What this exercise demonstrates does not negate what you're saying-- it simply shows that there are limitations to judgments we can make about the original poem when hearing it in English." Sure. And the "Fleurs" example is a good one, and Rimbaud is indeed tough to translate (although I think I could find even harder if I thought about it). As a matter of fact, because of the formal effects of the original you point to, my approach to translation -- making a new poem that stands alone -- seems to me all the more justified. The fact is, few who can read an original will ever bother to read a translation -- unless, that is, they think they're getting something new or interesting out of the translation that they *won't* find in the original, which already implies a fair bit of freedom/invention in said translation. The literalist approach seems to me self-defeating, and the Koch Rimbaud text is a perfect example of this: by being literalist, Koch has managed to lose everything that's worthwhile about the original! And since few, other than non-French speakers, would ever read Koch's translation, who's benefitting from this "crib"?? Not the translator, who's a drone: not the reader, who isn't likely to enjoy the translated text that much: and certainly not Rimbaud. At most, an inexperienced reader of the original could use the translation as a crutch (I doubt this is what Koch intended, but you did say "functionalist" or something, so I dunno): cf. translations explicitly so-designed, such as Nabokov's famous Onegin translation. Whereas, on the other hand, a free and inventive translation could have potentially recuperated the jewel-like profusion of sound in the original, by departing from literal translation. To get up close, scoot back. You're right that we can't judge an original by a translation -- unless, that is, a translator makes his approach to texts clear, which many do, and (imo) most should. But, in the absence of any such information, it seems to me to make the most sense to not speculate *at all* about the "original", because this simply devalues the translation, it seems to me, *unless* we actually have access to that original and can read "across". Which is lots of fun and often very revealing even about the original, as you just demonstrated. Am I making sense, or just gibbering like a mad Francophile? Merry xmas, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 24 13:57:05 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 10:57:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mandelstam translations In-Reply-To: <200612241700.kBOH048X011635@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <322394.2721.qm@web35513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Crisman, Nuther case in point. I doubt it's the most "accurate" or literal translation, but the Mandelstam I keep coming back to is the one by Greene, in the Eyesight of Wasps selected poems version (I think he's revised and republished this under some different title). I can't read the Russian (and Mandelstam is really hard anyway, so they tell me), but I like the poems: should I then worry about their relation to the originals *at all*, since I can't read them? I don't think so, really. That said, recommendations for *even better* translations of Mandelstam are always welcome. Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Dec 24 15:11:36 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 21:11:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] self advert advent Message-ID: <005101c72797$b74f9720$038d3052@ANNY> Tom Beckett just posted my _A Day_ on his Blog http://voice-noise.blogspot.com/2006/12/day-by-anny-ballardini.html thank you, Anny Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Dec 24 20:04:37 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:04:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vizpo, etc. References: <9b1b9dab0612220913r71f0ac13v5d863205194df0f8@mail.gmail.com><009a01c7261d$f247fe60$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <9b1b9dab0612221934q4d8124f7lb97f8383c98da547@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006101c727c0$a7d66c00$9eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Whew, there are a lot of resources, Chris, but the top one, I think, is light&dust. It has lots of stuff besides visual poetry. Me and Kaz Maslanka (who has posted to New-Poetry) are about the only authorities on math poetry. Geof Huth's dbqp blog is excellent for bopping around in the field. The best published resources (in English) are Mary Ellen Solt's anthology (with her intro), Concrete Poetry A World View, and Emmett WIlliams's anthology, An Anthology of Concrete Poetry. Concrete Poetry, to all intents and purposes, is what visual poetry used to be called. These 2 anthologies are almost forty years old by now, but haven't been replaced. Spidertangle is for vispo what New-Poetry is for what I call solitextual poetry. Karl Kempton has an essay at Dan Waber's website that has an extensive bibliography. URL for that: http://www.logolalia.com/minimalistconcretepoetry/ You can find the link to Kempton's essay on the left under Critical Writings. He's a good friend of mine but I don't like his essay! All the prehistoric stuff leaves me cold. But he's okay on the history after 1800 or so (although I disagree with him on many details). I hope this helps. I'd be glad to answer questions and add to what I'd told you--but not tonight. I feel really crappy, for some reason. Not the flu, I hope. but we'll see. Happy Tomorrow! --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Dec 25 06:35:35 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 06:35:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vizpo, etc. References: <9b1b9dab0612220913r71f0ac13v5d863205194df0f8@mail.gmail.com><009a01c7261d$f247fe60$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0612221934q4d8124f7lb97f8383c98da547@mail.gmail.com> <006101c727c0$a7d66c00$9eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002301c72818$d5373640$5ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Ooops, this was s'posed to be back-channel. Chris had e.mailed me from my blog asking for dope about my kind of poetry. I seem unable to remember to check the addresses on my e.mails before sending them. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 25 10:08:36 2006 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 15:08:36 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vizpo, etc. References: <9b1b9dab0612220913r71f0ac13v5d863205194df0f8@mail.gmail.com><009a01c7261d$f247fe60$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0612221934q4d8124f7lb97f8383c98da547@mail.gmail.com><006101c727c0$a7d66c00$9eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002301c72818$d5373640$5ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <007401c72836$8e87d4c0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> > Ooops, this was s'posed to be back-channel. Chris had e.mailed me from my > blog asking for dope about my kind of poetry. I seem unable to remember > to check the addresses on my e.mails before sending them. > > --Bob G. Still, useful for to be known generally, so a fortunate mistake. (Though do I detect a slightly more ameliorant attitude to the terminology of "Concrete Poetry" than you admit to frontchannel? ) Politically correct seasonal greetings, everyone. Robin From suelin7184 at gmail.com Mon Dec 25 10:24:45 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:24:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vizpo, etc. References: <9b1b9dab0612220913r71f0ac13v5d863205194df0f8@mail.gmail.com><009a01c7261d$f247fe60$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0612221934q4d8124f7lb97f8383c98da547@mail.gmail.com><006101c727c0$a7d66c00$9eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002301c72818$d5373640$5ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <007401c72836$8e87d4c0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> Message-ID: <000301c72838$cfa70e60$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Thank you, and Merry Christmas to one and all... LSG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vizpo, etc. >> Ooops, this was s'posed to be back-channel. Chris had e.mailed me from >> my blog asking for dope about my kind of poetry. I seem unable to >> remember to check the addresses on my e.mails before sending them. >> >> --Bob G. > > Still, useful for to be known generally, so a fortunate mistake. > > (Though do I detect a slightly more ameliorant attitude to the terminology > of "Concrete Poetry" than you admit to frontchannel? ) > > Politically correct seasonal greetings, everyone. > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Dec 25 11:18:02 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 11:18:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vizpo, etc. References: <9b1b9dab0612220913r71f0ac13v5d863205194df0f8@mail.gmail.com><009a01c7261d$f247fe60$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0612221934q4d8124f7lb97f8383c98da547@mail.gmail.com><006101c727c0$a7d66c00$9eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002301c72818$d5373640$5ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <007401c72836$8e87d4c0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> Message-ID: <004001c72840$441037c0$5ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Ooops, this was s'posed to be back-channel. Chris had e.mailed me from >> my blog asking for dope about my kind of poetry. I seem unable to >> remember to check the addresses on my e.mails before sending them. >> >> --Bob G. > > Still, useful for to be known generally, so a fortunate mistake. > > (Though do I detect a slightly more ameliorant attitude to the terminology > of "Concrete Poetry" than you admit to frontchannel? ) > Ameliorant!!?? Me?!! I ain't ameliorant nowhere, nor never, you unameliorantable %!@#! But a season's whuzzah to you and everyone else, anyway. Bob From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Tue Dec 26 05:04:21 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 05:04:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Its been interesting following the feedback others give here. I would feel insanely grateful for any feedback you would have for my poetic dialogue. I can't say if a box fits me but this is what inspires me. I am grown up enough to take criticism so I appreciated your time. Best regards, Raven Smith _16- Random Thoughts Connected..._ (http://journals.aol.com/rebuketheworld/RandomThoughtsConnected/) In my dreams, a chateau took form. Native to what was to come my fingers cast the arsonist as its masterpiece. Long suffering did not know the pucker of a vanishing tongue for I was the hearer of illusions, kissing nightmares under creaky doorways. Unburdened, I once danced to expected loves return. As sweet camouflage played, the attending antiquity was born in walls. Applauding mirrors mesmerize imitations in such a way that the enduring flair of an outsider carries sanity to the flame. How eerie it is to find myself emptied by wisdom, sitting alone as reflection paints anew. Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse. Can?t I paraphrase the finale of my loathing that you might know enough? Here lays the ruins from embezzled love and yet look at how magnificent it all is. The crumbling walls will illuminate what?s caged and fallen and the splinter will dream of its depart. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Dec 26 20:45:25 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:45:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <001201c72958$ae46e0d0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Don't call it Random Thoughts. It's perversely pretentious. Don't make it so modifier-heavy. Don't mention love, illusion, or wisdom. I like "my fingers cast the arsonist as its masterpiece." ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:04 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Its been interesting following the feedback others give here. I would feel insanely grateful for any feedback you would have for my poetic dialogue. I can't say if a box fits me but this is what inspires me. I am grown up enough to take criticism so I appreciated your time. Best regards, Raven Smith 16- Random Thoughts Connected... In my dreams, a chateau took form. Native to what was to come my fingers cast the arsonist as its masterpiece. Long suffering did not know the pucker of a vanishing tongue for I was the hearer of illusions, kissing nightmares under creaky doorways. Unburdened, I once danced to expected loves return. As sweet camouflage played, the attending antiquity was born in walls. Applauding mirrors mesmerize imitations in such a way that the enduring flair of an outsider carries sanity to the flame. How eerie it is to find myself emptied by wisdom, sitting alone as reflection paints anew. Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse. Can?t I paraphrase the finale of my loathing that you might know enough? Here lays the ruins from embezzled love and yet look at how magnificent it all is. The crumbling walls will illuminate what?s caged and fallen and the splinter will dream of its depart. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Dec 26 20:48:32 2006 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:48:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <001201c72958$ae46e0d0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> References: <001201c72958$ae46e0d0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: <731bb17a0612261748i2218b7fcmcba55dd1090db7b@mail.gmail.com> I'll second that, Mole. You might try line breaks, too, just to see if you can sharpen the phrasing. Even if you wind up keeping the poem as a prose poem, breaking the piece into lines might help you see it in a different way. Jeff Newberry On 12/26/06, TheOldMole wrote: > > ? Don't call it Random Thoughts. It's perversely pretentious. > > Don't make it so modifier-heavy. Don't mention love, illusion, or wisdom. > > I like "my fingers cast the arsonist as its masterpiece." > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Rebuketheworld at aol.com > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:04 AM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > > > Its been interesting following the feedback others give here. I would feel > insanely grateful for any feedback you would have for my poetic dialogue. I > can't say if a box fits me but this is what inspires me. I am grown up > enough to take criticism so I appreciated your time. > Best regards, Raven Smith > > > 16- Random Thoughts Connected... > > In my dreams, a chateau took form. Native to what was to come my fingers > cast the arsonist as its masterpiece. Long suffering did not know the > pucker of a vanishing tongue for I was the hearer of illusions, kissing > nightmares under creaky doorways. Unburdened, I once danced to expected > loves return. As sweet camouflage played, the attending antiquity was born > in walls. Applauding mirrors mesmerize imitations in such a way that the > enduring flair of an outsider carries sanity to the flame. How eerie it is > to find myself emptied by wisdom, sitting alone as reflection paints anew. > Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse. Can't > I paraphrase the finale of my loathing that you might know enough? Here lays > the ruins from embezzled love and yet look at how magnificent it all is. > The crumbling walls will illuminate what's caged and fallen and the splinter > will dream of its depart. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." ?William Faulkner, Light in August http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Tue Dec 26 21:16:12 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 21:16:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: <549.e68fcde.32c3316c@aol.com> Jeff and Mole, thank you for your feedback. I will put some of your advice to work. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Tue Dec 26 21:29:50 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 21:29:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <549.e68fcde.32c3316c@aol.com> References: <549.e68fcde.32c3316c@aol.com> Message-ID: There is a bit of Baudelaire decadence I like, but I agree that sharpness of language -- more specific nouns & verbs & fewer adjectives & adverbs -- would help the work. I like the prose poem as a form, though I've never been very good at writing them. I think you have a sense of prose rhythm that carries the images along & I'd encourage you to think in terms of images. On 12/26/06, Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > Jeff and Mole, thank you for your feedback. I will put some of your > advice to work. ~Raven > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [chujoe.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Tue Dec 26 23:03:34 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 23:03:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Thank you duemer, I will work on more clarity. I know I tend to use symbolism and metaphors too much. Thank you!~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Dec 27 03:29:07 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 03:29:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <549.e68fcde.32c3316c@aol.com> Message-ID: <001e01c72991$13897240$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> I'll go with Joe here -- I liked it as a prose poem. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Duemer To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? There is a bit of Baudelaire decadence I like, but I agree that sharpness of language -- more specific nouns & verbs & fewer adjectives & adverbs -- would help the work. I like the prose poem as a form, though I've never been very good at writing them. I think you have a sense of prose rhythm that carries the images along & I'd encourage you to think in terms of images. On 12/26/06, Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: Jeff and Mole, thank you for your feedback. I will put some of your advice to work. ~Raven _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [chujoe.net ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Dec 27 03:29:58 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 03:29:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <005401c72991$32159360$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Raven -- what's your story? Tell us a little about you. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Thank you duemer, I will work on more clarity. I know I tend to use symbolism and metaphors too much. Thank you!~Raven ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suelin7184 at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 06:49:20 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 05:49:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <004101c729ad$0c21a100$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Dear Raven, Unlike the others, I do not see that you have used too many modifiers in this piece. It does have a number grammar errors, but the most serious problem for me as reader is that it sounds like an exercise and not a finished poem, but as I say in #5 you have a lot of company in contemporary poetry in this regard. Here are some of my suggestions: 1. Why do you call it "dialogue"? It's not even conversation, and a dialogue requires two voices. 2. "Here lays the ruins from embezzled love" -- You mean "Here lay the ruins" or if you want present tense "lie". 3. "loves return" should be "love's return" 4. "will dream of its depart" "departure" depart is a verb 5. "Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse." I'd love hear a paraphrase of this line. 6. This kind of stuff sounds fake to me. As if the writer just put down on paper anything that popped into his/her head. But in this you have a lot company in contemporary poetry. So your grammar/usage errors could be intentional for all the reader can tell. Hope this helps. Blessings, Linda Sue Grimes Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 4:04 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Its been interesting following the feedback others give here. I would feel insanely grateful for any feedback you would have for my poetic dialogue. I can't say if a box fits me but this is what inspires me. I am grown up enough to take criticism so I appreciated your time. Best regards, Raven Smith 16- Random Thoughts Connected... In my dreams, a chateau took form. Native to what was to come my fingers cast the arsonist as its masterpiece. Long suffering did not know the pucker of a vanishing tongue for I was the hearer of illusions, kissing nightmares under creaky doorways. Unburdened, I once danced to expected loves return. As sweet camouflage played, the attending antiquity was born in walls. Applauding mirrors mesmerize imitations in such a way that the enduring flair of an outsider carries sanity to the flame. How eerie it is to find myself emptied by wisdom, sitting alone as reflection paints anew. Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse. Can?t I paraphrase the finale of my loathing that you might know enough? Here lays the ruins from embezzled love and yet look at how magnificent it all is. The crumbling walls will illuminate what?s caged and fallen and the splinter will dream of its depart. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Dec 27 06:59:38 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:59:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac Message-ID: <00d401c729ae$7c8dbae0$f3a33852@ANNY> Poem: "Careless World" by Louise Katz, from Isobar. ? Chapiteau Press. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) Careless World This is a careless world without your voice. Courtesy is gone; nobody tips their hats. There is no one to name the shrubs and birds, To suggest a heavier coat. You watched while I stood by the window Saying goodbye to Sixth Avenue. The pavement was always being torn away. Watching the hammers I kissed the glass four times; Once for you and mother And Richard and me. You knew that four was a special number, My number for watching things end. You, at the door, made the room mine. In five months I have lost your voice. Its tone, a clearing throat; Trailing off, "be a good girl." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 07:08:52 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 07:08:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Thanks Susan for your feedback! Part of the reason why I think of this as a dialogue is that when I write it, I feel like I am talking to someone. I guess the best example is something like Shakesphere yet I am not at all equating me with him in anyway what so ever. 2. "Here lays the ruins from embezzled love" -- You mean "Here lay the ruins" or if you want present tense "lie". Thank you, I agree. 3. "loves return" should be "love's return" I agree. 4. "will dream of its depart" "departure" depart is a verb Departure doesn't sound right. The rhythm just wasn't right to me. I do play around with grammar because I feel it brings more meaning. The flow fits but I agree, I should focus on not always writing outside of the rule box. 5. "Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse." I'd love hear a paraphrase of this line. Paraphrase- When we share our secrets, its like giving a treasure to someone. In this example, the person doesn't want to for a various list of reasons by the reader. For me, vulnerability and trust are big. Our pulse is impacted by how we feel. There can be anxiety and fear when we share our secrets. You mentioned that this writing sounded fake? What did you mean? I actually cry when I write many of these. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Dec 27 07:08:53 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:08:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <004101c729ad$0c21a100$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Message-ID: <00e301c729af$c6e26590$f3a33852@ANNY> I support Linda Sue Grimes' vision. Did I hear Baudelaire mentioned before? My first thought was that this was a bad copy of his style. And there is nothing worse than a bad copy of a beloved poet. I am sure Raven has much to say, but she should try to find her own feelings first and then her own way of expressing them. All the best, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda Sue Grimes To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Dear Raven, Unlike the others, I do not see that you have used too many modifiers in this piece. It does have a number grammar errors, but the most serious problem for me as reader is that it sounds like an exercise and not a finished poem, but as I say in #5 you have a lot of company in contemporary poetry in this regard. Here are some of my suggestions: 1. Why do you call it "dialogue"? It's not even conversation, and a dialogue requires two voices. 2. "Here lays the ruins from embezzled love" -- You mean "Here lay the ruins" or if you want present tense "lie". 3. "loves return" should be "love's return" 4. "will dream of its depart" "departure" depart is a verb 5. "Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse." I'd love hear a paraphrase of this line. 6. This kind of stuff sounds fake to me. As if the writer just put down on paper anything that popped into his/her head. But in this you have a lot company in contemporary poetry. So your grammar/usage errors could be intentional for all the reader can tell. Hope this helps. Blessings, Linda Sue Grimes Poetry http://poetry.suite101.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 4:04 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Its been interesting following the feedback others give here. I would feel insanely grateful for any feedback you would have for my poetic dialogue. I can't say if a box fits me but this is what inspires me. I am grown up enough to take criticism so I appreciated your time. Best regards, Raven Smith 16- Random Thoughts Connected... In my dreams, a chateau took form. Native to what was to come my fingers cast the arsonist as its masterpiece. Long suffering did not know the pucker of a vanishing tongue for I was the hearer of illusions, kissing nightmares under creaky doorways. Unburdened, I once danced to expected loves return. As sweet camouflage played, the attending antiquity was born in walls. Applauding mirrors mesmerize imitations in such a way that the enduring flair of an outsider carries sanity to the flame. How eerie it is to find myself emptied by wisdom, sitting alone as reflection paints anew. Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse. Can?t I paraphrase the finale of my loathing that you might know enough? Here lays the ruins from embezzled love and yet look at how magnificent it all is. The crumbling walls will illuminate what?s caged and fallen and the splinter will dream of its depart. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 07:10:57 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 07:10:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: <587.128d656a.32c3bcd1@aol.com> Amy, I have never heard of the word Baudelaire. I actually did a yahoo search after I received that comment. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Dec 27 07:17:30 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:17:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kanaka Ha. Ma. Message-ID: <010201c729b0$fb39f190$f3a33852@ANNY> I can do without it, but I recognize an interesting voluptuousness in this poem, up to you now: THE BROCADE BORDER Tell me, how can a brocade sari without an embellished border be beautiful? Isn't it the border that carries, with the susurus of pleats, the imperious swathe of body and pallu? Flowers, creepers, mangoes, grape-clusters, temples, peacocks . the body, a sea of dreams the pallu, a night sky. But it is the quivering earth-edged border that takes the breath away. A simple-bordered sari without body or pallu like the artless mirth of a woman unadorned. Were she to turn around, she'd be a serpent-streak across the fence, here one moment and gone the next. Hint of foot, radiant flicker of toe beneath border, her gait, a shimmer of mehendi. Try as you might to unravel this sari - game of dice darting between its folds - it will not yield the secret of its infinitude. Of course, brocades are necessary to enhance the allure of lovely women. And to pin down the vagrant stars and moon a beguiling sari is all you need. Yes, we must learn to resist its seductions but here anyway is a tip: in today's world, civilized folk are advised to attach a matching 'fall' to safeguard their borders. ? 2006, Kanaka Ha. Ma. ? Translation: 2004, Arundhathi Subramaniam Translator's Note: pallu: the loose end of a sari that is draped over the shoulder fall: a length of fabric sewn along the bottom inside edge of a sari that helps the garment to fall well when draped, and protects the edges from getting frayed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Dec 27 07:59:29 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 07:59:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <001d01c729b6$d8f72250$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> That's actually part of the problem. You make yourself cry because you're connecting to private things inside yourself. You need to find a way -- with words and rhythms -- to allow the reader to connect to things inside him or herself. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Thanks Susan for your feedback! Part of the reason why I think of this as a dialogue is that when I write it, I feel like I am talking to someone. I guess the best example is something like Shakesphere yet I am not at all equating me with him in anyway what so ever. 2. "Here lays the ruins from embezzled love" -- You mean "Here lay the ruins" or if you want present tense "lie". Thank you, I agree. 3. "loves return" should be "love's return" I agree. 4. "will dream of its depart" "departure" depart is a verb Departure doesn't sound right. The rhythm just wasn't right to me. I do play around with grammar because I feel it brings more meaning. The flow fits but I agree, I should focus on not always writing outside of the rule box. 5. "Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse." I'd love hear a paraphrase of this line. Paraphrase- When we share our secrets, its like giving a treasure to someone. In this example, the person doesn't want to for a various list of reasons by the reader. For me, vulnerability and trust are big. Our pulse is impacted by how we feel. There can be anxiety and fear when we share our secrets. You mentioned that this writing sounded fake? What did you mean? I actually cry when I write many of these. ~Raven ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Dec 27 08:03:34 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 08:03:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <587.128d656a.32c3bcd1@aol.com> Message-ID: <003701c729b7$6b040cd0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Raven -- this is something else you need to work on, that comes with time. One of the most important things you can do is to read -- everyone and everything. This is from an interview I did with Billy Collins. Equally important in Collins' work is his sense of a connection with the great poets who have preceded him. "In a sense," he says, "all poems are about some other poem. You're always riffing on earlier work. As William Matthews has said, 'A poet is never alone. You're always in the company of the beloved lines of your predecessors.'" At the same time, he points out, influence becomes a fascinating dialog across time. "While you are the audience for great predecessors, they're your audience, as well. Influence is a two-way street. For example, Whitman was an important influence on Ginsberg - but because of Ginsberg, we now read Whitman differently." This sense of history is important to Collins, and as a teacher, he believes it's one of the most important things a young poet has to learn. "The history of poetry is one of cross-historical conversation. And you have to listen to that conversation before you can jump in and become a part of it. It's not just self-expression, as a lot of young would-be poets think." ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Amy, I have never heard of the word Baudelaire. I actually did a yahoo search after I received that comment. ~Raven ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 13:58:59 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:58:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <003701c729b7$6b040cd0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> References: <587.128d656a.32c3bcd1@aol.com> <003701c729b7$6b040cd0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: It pains me to agree with Billy Collins, but David Wagoner told me much the same thing when I was an undergrad 35 years ago. "Not bad, he said of my work. Now go read everything in the Library." I've been trying ever since. I disagree with Anny about imitation, though. If you like a poet imitate them until you own them, then move on; that's how one learns. Raven may not have heard of Baudelaire, but there is some of that sensibility in the work, which, yes, is very raw, but has authentic feeling. So, Raven, get the to a used bookstore & pick up some Baudelaire prose poems. Linda Sue Grimes writes "This kind of stuff sounds fake to me. As if the writer just put down on paper anything that popped into his/her head. But in this you have a lot company in contemporary poetry. So your grammar/usage errors could be intentional for all the reader can tell." That's nonsense. An example of the rhetorical fault of the sweeping generalization, or painting with too broad a brush. jd On 12/27/06, TheOldMole wrote: > > Raven -- this is something else you need to work on, that comes with > time. One of the most important things you can do is to read -- everyone and > everything. This is from an interview I did with Billy Collins. > > Equally important in Collins' work is his sense of a connection with the > great poets who have preceded him. "In a sense," he says, "all poems are > about some other poem. You're always riffing on earlier work. As William > Matthews has said, 'A poet is never alone. You're always in the company of > the beloved lines of your predecessors.'" At the same time, he points out, > influence becomes a fascinating dialog across time. "While you are the > audience for great predecessors, they're your audience, as well. Influence > is a two-way street. For example, Whitman was an important influence on > Ginsberg - but because of Ginsberg, we now read Whitman differently." > > This sense of history is important to Collins, and as a teacher, he > believes it's one of the most important things a young poet has to learn. > "The history of poetry is one of cross-historical conversation. And you have > to listen to that conversation before you can jump in and become a part of > it. It's not just self-expression, as a lot of young would-be poets think." > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Rebuketheworld at aol.com > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:10 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > Amy, I have never heard of the word Baudelaire. I actually did a yahoo > search after I received that comment. > ~Raven > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [chujoe.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Dec 27 14:43:01 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:43:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <587.128d656a.32c3bcd1@aol.com><003701c729b7$6b040cd0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: <009b01c729ef$3811c640$30af3452@ANNY> Re.: "I disagree with Anny about imitation, though" you mean that this is a good imitation? I was not saying that it is bad to imitate, I said that this is a bad copy. Why does not Raven give some personal information as requested by TheOldMole? ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Duemer To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? It pains me to agree with Billy Collins, but David Wagoner told me much the same thing when I was an undergrad 35 years ago. "Not bad, he said of my work. Now go read everything in the Library." I've been trying ever since. I disagree with Anny about imitation, though. If you like a poet imitate them until you own them, then move on; that's how one learns. Raven may not have heard of Baudelaire, but there is some of that sensibility in the work, which, yes, is very raw, but has authentic feeling. So, Raven, get the to a used bookstore & pick up some Baudelaire prose poems. Linda Sue Grimes writes "This kind of stuff sounds fake to me. As if the writer just put down on paper anything that popped into his/her head. But in this you have a lot company in contemporary poetry. So your grammar/usage errors could be intentional for all the reader can tell." That's nonsense. An example of the rhetorical fault of the sweeping generalization, or painting with too broad a brush. jd On 12/27/06, TheOldMole wrote: Raven -- this is something else you need to work on, that comes with time. One of the most important things you can do is to read -- everyone and everything. This is from an interview I did with Billy Collins. Equally important in Collins' work is his sense of a connection with the great poets who have preceded him. "In a sense," he says, "all poems are about some other poem. You're always riffing on earlier work. As William Matthews has said, 'A poet is never alone. You're always in the company of the beloved lines of your predecessors.'" At the same time, he points out, influence becomes a fascinating dialog across time. "While you are the audience for great predecessors, they're your audience, as well. Influence is a two-way street. For example, Whitman was an important influence on Ginsberg - but because of Ginsberg, we now read Whitman differently." This sense of history is important to Collins, and as a teacher, he believes it's one of the most important things a young poet has to learn. "The history of poetry is one of cross-historical conversation. And you have to listen to that conversation before you can jump in and become a part of it. It's not just self-expression, as a lot of young would-be poets think." ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Amy, I have never heard of the word Baudelaire. I actually did a yahoo search after I received that comment. ~Raven -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [chujoe.net ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 14:45:18 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:45:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Thank you JD. I do not read much poetry. I enjoy poetry very much but I usally end up reading something else. Your comments have been heard. Grateful again.~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 14:48:44 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:48:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Anny, I dont recalled Mole asking for personal information. I am 42. Single mother. A nature freak and a loner. College grad. Maj-Sociology Minor-Women Studies. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 14:54:13 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:54:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Old Mole, if anything I know of no poet that I could say I have learned from. I read poetry here and there from blogs or excerpts from novels but outside of studying Shakespeare in high school, I know little. I learned of Bukowski about a year ago from a documentary. I loved his style. A couple people who are experts in the literacy field have thought of my writings as Kant and Faulkner. I did about a two hour search on them and thought Faulkner was interesting but my writings are much easier than his. I know little. I do write about human nature. I am working on a book about relationships.I understand people but I know little about poets. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dick at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com Wed Dec 27 15:02:35 2006 From: dick at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (dick at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:02:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? [New Poetry] Message-ID: <200612272005.kBRK5iUf017769@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> Is anyone else besides me reminded of Richard Dillon and his trying out various personae on this list, by this submission? Richard ***** Reply to your file: NEW-POET NOTE of: 12/27 08:15:38 *************** > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Rebuketheworld at aol.com > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:04 AM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > > > Its been interesting following the feedback others give here. I would feel > insanely grateful for any feedback you would have for my poetic dialogue. I > can't say if a box fits me but this is what inspires me. I am grown up > enough to take criticism so I appreciated your time. > Best regards, Raven Smith > > > 16- Random Thoughts Connected... > > In my dreams, a chateau took form. Native to what was to come my fingers > cast the arsonist as its masterpiece. Long suffering did not know the > pucker of a vanishing tongue for I was the hearer of illusions, kissing > nightmares under creaky doorways. Unburdened, I once danced to expected > loves return. As sweet camouflage played, the attending antiquity was born > in walls. Applauding mirrors mesmerize imitations in such a way that the > enduring flair of an outsider carries sanity to the flame. How eerie it is > to find myself emptied by wisdom, sitting alone as reflection paints anew. > Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse. Can't > I paraphrase the finale of my loathing that you might know enough? Here lays > the ruins from embezzled love and yet look at how magnificent it all is. > The crumbling walls will illuminate what's caged and fallen and the splinter > will dream of its depart. > > ------------------------------ From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 15:35:23 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:35:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? [New Poetry] Message-ID: Is anyone else besides me reminded of Richard Dillon and his trying out various personae on this list, by this submission? Richard Richard, I am not Richard Dillon whoever that is. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 15:44:14 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:44:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: <3c0.1dd77169.32c4351e@aol.com> Duemer, if you would obliged me or anyone else in this wonderful group of minds with some suggestions for my future reading, I would enjoy that. I do not know where to start. I prefer poets who write with imagery and prose but I can learn from anyone but I don't like singsongy poetry with perfect rhymes. I just started writing these a few months ago and I love how I feel when I do these. So, I have much to learn. I will look into any suggestions given. I don't want to take up anymore of your time. I am the baby here in terms of poetic knowledge. I have enjoyed watching and learning from the previous emails many of you have sent. Thank you, Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 15:47:58 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:47:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anny, it couldn't be a bad imitation because it wasn't an imitation. I was speaking in general. But, in general, I'd say that you have to start somewhere & that everyone writes badly before they write well. When I mentioned Baudelaire, I was picking up on the tone. To Raven, I would say that posting your stuff to a poetry list when you don't read poetry is, uh, brave, but maybe a teensy bit premature. But then it's always beginners who are eager to share their work. Not sure why that it. I've been writing poems for forty years & I wouldn't post a poem to a list like this until after it was published, in order to sell copies of magazines or my books. I may be an exception in this. The folks on the other poetry list I subscribe to (Poetryetc) post poems all the time. On 12/27/06, Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > Old Mole, if anything I know of no poet that I could say I have learned > from. I read poetry here and there from blogs or excerpts from novels but > outside of studying Shakespeare in high school, I know little. I learned of > Bukowski about a year ago from a documentary. I loved his style. A couple > people who are experts in the literacy field have thought of my writings as > Kant and Faulkner. I did about a two hour search on them and thought > Faulkner was interesting but my writings are much easier than his. I know > little. I do write about human nature. I am working on a book about > relationships.I understand people but I know little about poets. > ~Raven > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [chujoe.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 15:56:57 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:56:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Duemer, it wasn't arrogance that I posted my writings. It was genuine feedback that I was requesting. A good starting place so to speak. The one lady named Gerri, whose sister is Linda King, Bukowski first girlfriend had also given me some feedback. She is the one who thought my writings were similar to Faulkner and suggested I develop it more. She found me from my news site where I had posted an article about Buskowski. I have received wonderful criticism and encouragement. I look forward to both. I like the idea that I haven't been influenced in my style as of yet because its solely just me and a starting place of my own. Now, I need to read and learn from others. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Wed Dec 27 16:54:04 2006 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:54:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=3A_Crisman=27s_Game_re=3A_Transtr?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=F6mer?= In-Reply-To: <200612241700.kBOH048X011635@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200612241700.kBOH048X011635@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <24A2EE3A-A997-46A1-A9A3-C24EEE9B7887@overdomain.com> I've been on this list for 4.5 years and to me this is the most interesting post you've made to this list, Bob. You may believe I'm congratulating myself-- but (I think :) I'm not. My game, as you say in so many words, is nothing. Just like Linda Gregg's prescription of seeing 6 things per day is nothing. Of course, we're all going to see 6 things. But-- here's the difference-- will we write them down? Will we make a practice of careful observation? This is particularly challenging to me because I think I have a habit of keeping the generalization and throwing out the specific sensory experience. Okay, I'll ask the rest of the group: did any of all y'all read Bob's post? Did it seem to you, as it does to me, that he was reporting his specific esthetic interactions rather than his (usually foregone) conclusion/generalization? Does the post interest you? Though you concluded that nothing had changed and you still didn't see anything special in Transtr?mer -- in fact (well, I believe it's a fact) you notated exactly what was your reaction and it was not precisely the same as any other reaction you've had to any other poem. Similar, you may say. --I grant you. But not exactly the same and therefore special in that sense. The fact that you conclude that overall the experience was not unique enough to repeat with other poems by him is immaterial. That's just your 1 / 0 (yes / no) overall generalization which, because most general, is most useless. So, what I'm saying is that your specific esthetic reactions are valuable to me, because they give me insight into your reading which your generalizations do not. Your specifics certainly inform my reading-- the advantage of going second. Now, as I said before, I accept the coequal challenge of playing the game myself with these three translations -- and I shall! But, please let me beg off a few more days. I've just finished editing a poem I've been working on for ten years. And I'm sending it out for outside review. May I be granted a few days recess? Cris > Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:24:06 -0500 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Crisman's Game re: Transtr?mer > > This is from the 16th, Crisman. > > I unexpectedly have a few moments, so will try your game, CC. > > > >> Let's see if we can make this an interesting discussion. Here >> are the >> rules: 1. You must think, really think before you say something; > > I always think before saying anything, but will try to pause and > think some > more before saying anything here. My problem is not not thinking > but in not > having sufficient data to come to an reasonable conclusion. But it > isn't > really a problem because I'm aware of it. > >> 2. As you read these 3 versions of a Transtr?mer poem, you must >> actually >> pay attention to your own esthetic reactions; > > That goes without saying. > > 3. You must >> report what is your esthetic reaction to a particular word, phrase or >> image; > > That doesn't sound easy but I'll try. > > > 4. You must not comment on what is NOT in the poem, only what >> is in it; > > That's poor literary criticism, but what you want here, which is > something > different. So I'll go along with it. > > > 5. You can only voice your own esthetic reaction, and are >> strictly disallowed from making political comments or any other >> comments >> other than A. your own esthetic experience, or B. comments about >> your own >> esthetic experience. > > I consider it one of my flaws that I almost never voice others' > aesthetic > reactions, just my own. I almost never bring politics in my > engagement with > a poem, unless in response to politics in the poem. > > > 6. You are allowed to comment on >> the variation between translations, knowing, but not caring, that >> these >> are not about Transtr?mer, but are about the text actually in the >> new-po >> post (the Object of Discussion); > > Okay. > > 7. these translations are >> the only object of discussion; > > Right. What I'm doing now is in advance of the discussion. > > 8. The question "What's this guy do >> that's special?" must be changed subtly to "What is my esthetic >> reaction >> to what these translators say this guy does?" > > I'm not sure I understand this so what I'll do is express my aesthetic > reaction to what the translators do (and therefore indicate what > they think > the guy does). > > 9. In the >> process of following the rules, your original question will be >> answered, >> but not in a way to prove anything, since esthetic discussions never >> prove anything. Proving something would be breaking rules >> #2,3,4, and 5. >> Ready? > > As already stated, I can't see how this will come about, but I'm > ready. > > >> Here are the texts: [note that the May Swenson translation >> appears to >> have an error in line 6] >> >> Breathing Room: July >> >> Lying on his back under tall trees >> he is also up there. He rills into thousands of twigs and branches, > > > I like "rills," a word I don't know. Oh, I do know it, sort of--small > valley, I thought, but it's small brook. Anyway, I understood it > in the > context as airly joining the twigs and branches of the trees. > Liquidly, > like a brook, I now add, having checked the dictionary. My aesthetic > response is--what do you want? just that I like it? Good image for > carrying a thinking or a soul into Nature. > > > >> is swayed back and forth, >> as if in a catapult seat outflung in slow motion. > > Happy motion, happily imaged. The slow motion increases the > pleasure, the > serenity. > >> Standing down by the jetties he squints across the waters. > > Okay, the person's on a pleasant jaunt in a countryside. That's > not an > aesthetic reaction but I have to set-up my aesthetic reactions, > don't I? > Here, I'm not having an aesthetic reaction. The language is > humdrum, the > scene humdrum. But not unpleasantly in either case. > >> The docks age sooner than men. > > (Has to be "age," so I changed it. > >> Made of splintered silver gray planks, and with stones in their >> bellies. >> The blinding light rips its way straight through. > > Nice postcard scene. "The blinding light" I guess is reflection of > the > water of the lake or ocean. It doesn't dazzle me but I don't mind > it. I > sort of like the image of the docks aging faster than men. It's an > odd > remark; therefore it makes one think/feel the aging more, and about > the > water and weather that causes it. > >> Sailing all day in an open boat > > I have no aesthetic response to the words, but the image of sailing > all day > picks up nicely on the opening image of, in effect, sailing with > the twigs > and branches. > >> over the glittering bights, > > "bights" is an odd word (to me), so effectively freshening here-- > that is, it > makes me feel good aesthetically. And makes up for "glittering," > which > comes close to annoying me, or giving me aesthetic pain, because a > standard > poetic word. > >> he will fall asleep at last inside a blue lamp >> while islands like great nocturnal moths creep over the glass. > > My aesthetic reaction to this is inseparable from what you might > call my > intellectual reaction. I like the idea of his falling asleep > inside the > lamp the sky makes around him, but am confused somewhat by the > islands, so > they cause me some aesthetic discomfort. They suggest he's > submerged in a > dream like the body of water he's been sailing on. Okay, that > works, I > guess--he becomes such a part of the water world he's been sailing > (as he > earlier became a part of the trees overhead) that he enters it. He > became a > brook up into the twigs and branches, now he's become a lake or sea > whose > islands move above him. So I find the pay-off aesthetically nice. > >> Translation by May Swenson >> >> Breathing Space July >> >> The man lying on his back under the high trees >> is up there too. He rills out in thousandfold twigs, >> sways to and fro, >> sits in an ejector seat that releases in slow motion. > > "High" may add a little to the exhiliartion of becoming one with > the trees. > I'm somewhat unpleasantly jolted by the "ejector seat that > releases," which > sounds too mechanical to me, so without the happy organic flow that > Swenson's version had, due mainly to "outflung." > > > >> The man down by the jetties narrows his eyes at the water. > > I'm confused because in the first version I thought there was only > one man > in the poem. > >> The jetties grow old more quickly than people. >> They have silver grey timber and stones in their stomachs. >> The blinding light beats right in. > > About the same aesthetic reaction to this text as to Swenson's--with a > preference for "grow old more quickly" to "age sooner," which, now > that I > think more about it, doesn't quite make sense since everything > begins to age > as soon as born. > >> The man traveling all day in an open boat >> over the glittering straits > > "traveling" would feel aesthetically neither good nor bad here if I > didn't > remember "sailing," which is much more exciting, and seems to me to > involve > the persona more than "traveling." And it brings back the slow > motion sail > into the trees. > >> Will sleep at last inside a blue lamp >> while the islands creep like large moths across the glass. > > This again seems enjoyable, but not as viscerally rich as Swenson's > version. > > > >> Translation by Robert Fulton >> >> Breathing Space July >> >> The man who lies on his back under huge trees >> is also up in them. He branches out into thousands of tiny branches. >> He sways back and forth, >> he sits in a catapult chair that hurtles forward in slow motion. > > This affects me about the way Swenson's version did, except that I > like > hers, with its "outflung," better. > > >> The man who stands down at the dock screws up his eyes against >> the water. >> Docks get older faster than men. >> They have silver-gray posts and boulders in their gut. >> The dazzling light drives straight in. > > Another confusion--this one about the light, which I thought was up > from the > water, driving straight in. So a different image, and okay, I guess. > >> The man who spends the whole day in an open boat >> moving over the luminous bays >> will fall asleep at last inside the shade of his blue lamp >> as the islands crawl like huge moths over the globe. > > Again, I miss the sailing. And now I envision three men, and > realize three > men were in the second version. Or "the man" at three times in his > life. > All three versions are a bit confusing in this respect--the first > because > the persona could not have spent all day sailing if he lay under > the trees > at one point. I have trouble connecting the dock scene with the > other two > unless it's one man going from lying under the trees to the dock, > then to > his sailboat. That is, the first and last stanzas lead to some > oceanic > experience that seem, for me, to fuse; the second does not. This time > around Bly's rendition doesn't suck, for me. But his final stanza > seems to > state a generality I can't believe in and so can't sympathize with > enough to > experience much aesthetic delight. Swenson's man is an individual > whom I > can feel might experience sailing the way the poem's man does. Her > version > flows, the others don't. > > Oh, and Bly has the man inside the lampshade, not inside the lamp, > which is > much more logical than the other two versions, but cost it the deep > mystery > the others have. > > In all versions a man or men are flowing through the world while > the world > flows through them. A fine expression of serenity. > >> Translation by Robert Bly > > End of my attempt to play your game, CC. I don't feel I was doing > anything > I don't always do when reading a poem knowing I will be more or less > explicating it--so I probably didn't play the game right. One > note: I find > that I don't, perhaps can't, think harder than usual. What I do is > think > and express my thought, then return a rethink it, and--if > necessary--re-express it. I didn't do much of that this time. I > don't feel > I had to think really hard to get into the poem--mainly because > surrealism > and oneness with Nature, etc., are common in the poetry I've been most > involved with over the years. > > I didn't learn what the guy is doing that's special--really > special. So > that part of the experiment was a failure. Now, why don't you play > your > game, CC? > > --Bob G. > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Dec 27 18:12:23 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 00:12:23 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? [New Poetry] References: <200612272005.kBRK5iUf017769@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <010e01c72a0c$779d4c40$30af3452@ANNY> Are you sure you are talking of Richard Dillon? I know that Kent Johnson is a Master in these kinds of tricks, but it does not seem to me his style, if of style we have to speak. We are anyhow sharing the same feeling, be it whoever it might be. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 9:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? [New Poetry] > Is anyone else besides me reminded of Richard Dillon and his trying > out various personae on this list, by this submission? > > Richard > > ***** Reply to your file: NEW-POET NOTE of: 12/27 08:15:38 *************** >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Rebuketheworld at aol.com >> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:04 AM >> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? >> >> >> >> Its been interesting following the feedback others give here. I would >> feel >> insanely grateful for any feedback you would have for my poetic dialogue. >> I >> can't say if a box fits me but this is what inspires me. I am grown up >> enough to take criticism so I appreciated your time. >> Best regards, Raven Smith >> >> >> 16- Random Thoughts >> Connected... >> >> In my dreams, a chateau took form. Native to what was to come my fingers >> cast the arsonist as its masterpiece. Long suffering did not know the >> pucker of a vanishing tongue for I was the hearer of illusions, kissing >> nightmares under creaky doorways. Unburdened, I once danced to expected >> loves return. As sweet camouflage played, the attending antiquity was >> born >> in walls. Applauding mirrors mesmerize imitations in such a way that the >> enduring flair of an outsider carries sanity to the flame. How eerie it >> is >> to find myself emptied by wisdom, sitting alone as reflection paints >> anew. >> Intimacy must know my stories to touch the treasured forbidden pulse. >> Can't >> I paraphrase the finale of my loathing that you might know enough? Here >> lays >> the ruins from embezzled love and yet look at how magnificent it all is. >> The crumbling walls will illuminate what's caged and fallen and the >> splinter >> will dream of its depart. >> From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 18:19:18 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:19:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? [New Poetry] Message-ID: Anny, I am at a loss. Are both of you assuming someone is playing a joke when I submitted a sample of my "style"? Thought I would send my photo,lol..its really me, Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 9625 bytes Desc: not available URL: From duemer at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 18:48:55 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:48:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Raven, you can call me Joe. Now, let me speak some truth: You don't write anything like the Nobel Prize winner William Faulkner. Nor do you write like Immanuel Kant, who wrote in German anyway. You are a beginning writer & what you need to do, as others have noted, is read, read, read. Like many others on this list, I actually get paid to teach people how to write. I am glad to read what you wrote: "Now I need to read & learn from others." But I am bothered by the sentence you wrote just before that one: "I like the idea that I haven't been influenced in my style as of yet because its [sic] solely just me and a starting place of my own." I guess in some sense we all start from nowhere & in that way your sentiments are admirable. As a poet, you are an innocent, which means, in fact, that you don't really have a "style" because having a style involves absorbing the work of other poets & then making your own way among those others. A lot of beginners think that writing poetry is a form of self expression, but it's not. Poetry is about discovering a path through language. The self will only get in the way. Pay enough attention to language -- which means reading other poets -- & some shadow of the self will get cast against the wall, but that's not really your job as a poet. Your job as a poet is to pay attention to language. Of course, it is entirely possible that you are not a poet. I can't say. But there is no shame in not being a poet, god knows. -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 18:55:15 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:55:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Duemer, I dont think a style can be only yours. There is too much history and examples to be so arrogant to think your the only one who writes as you do. I will disagree with you on this- style. Its inborn. Its natural. I know I have a style and that is pretty obvious. A style is your creation and the how's and why's in what moves you to write but I also know that my style needs to grow. Its not a blank or empty start. Thanks again~~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Wed Dec 27 19:07:37 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:07:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: a lot of people who have spent a lot of time studying an art form get annoyed when some dilletante shows up acting like they know what's what and speaking out of ignorance about things related to that art form that they obviously don't understand. and those people can tell that said dilletante doesn't know what he or she is talking about because they can look at the dilletante's output and see all the flaws that the dilletante doesn't see with his or her less cultivated eyes. other people will just shake their head and sigh because they know that the dilletante will not listen to anything that the dilletante disagrees with and as such he or she will never rise above the mediocrity that they are so desperate to elevate themselves above. i'm not saying i agree or disagree that a style is inborn. just that it's obvious to me and everyone else on the list, i think, that you don't really know what you're doing, and haven't thought through the implications of what you're saying. you really only have one choice at this point, and that's whether or not you want to continue to be a dilletante. of course, if you are a dilletante, you don't know you're one and you'll just be offended. It's a bit of a catch 22. On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > Duemer, I dont think a style can be only yours. There is too much history > and examples to be so arrogant to think your the only one who writes as you do. > I will disagree with you on this- style. Its inborn. Its natural. I know I > have a style and that is pretty obvious. A style is your creation and the > how's and why's in what moves you to write but I also know that my style needs to > grow. Its not a blank or empty start. > Thanks again~~Raven > From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 19:16:59 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:16:59 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: dilletante? A bit harsh,lol. I did receive some good advice here. I did acknowledge that I am a baby. I only disagreed with the logic that was given- "no style." Not sure, how you came to all that you said but its sounds like you have dealt with many arrogant people and I seem to fit in your stereotype's. Maybe you should go to my website and see if I have no style and agree with me, that I do and need to grow. Thank you ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 19:25:21 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:25:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Some more samples- I do have a style. I just don't know what it is yet. ~Raven 11- Random Thoughts Connected... Did you walk by the field today? I saw you honey. The affable statue of the thinking man has amplified the indexes of my limbo. You betray my heart with your devotion to grief, he said. I replied, each stem has prodded my lay. What more can the field ask when I have willingly conformed to its wild grass. The quiet air bewilders my assent again. Have I stayed too long? I wonder. I am tired of the unreal. The exquisite statue nods. 8- Random Thoughts Connected... I?m sloughed in this old incessant chair. Rocking to what I covet the dust designs my passage. Dear chair, if I pardon the footloose will you sway a new me? Toe?s gripping destitute carpet amusing my bitterness. The prot?g? of envy and jealously has shackled my feet. Legs crippled from fumbling. Fingers clawing armrests, I cleave to my trepidation unaware that the majestic auctioneer has come. I hear the steward of dreams bidding away my withholdings singing, farewell to despair. Crying, I grope the window pane. Rising to his medley, the cushions have changed form. 9- Random Thoughts Connected... My arduous journey forgoes into the quiet nights as I?ve been invited to float blissfully watching the moon show his face in lucid water. There, I?ve wailed a sorrows tale looking for natures handouts to resign the waltz that I had betrothed. Yet how can I recant the atlas that brought me here, for wasn?t the dance the compass that sketched my invitation? The quiet does not muzzle inspiration nor does it comfort a compromise. The night air is crisp and as the breeze blows a euphoric gesture, I'm indebted to the surreal. The grandiose pilgrimage has settled all regrets and lays floating where the crescent moon has smiled. 7- Random Thoughts Connected... The snow whitens my eyelashes like a cool border around a memoir. Eyes closed, my outer shell takes it all in speaking, I have forgiven you for being less than I wanted. My muse celebrates a winters breeze sedating the old haunting abysmal of, My I remember you. The motionless landscape then turns the air, Where will you go now? My path is marked by hope. Heavily plowed by rain, I will walk where the snow falls. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Dec 27 19:46:41 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:46:41 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Re:_Crisman's_Game_re:_Transtr=F6mer?= References: <200612241700.kBOH048X011635@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <24A2EE3A-A997-46A1-A9A3-C24EEE9B7887@overdomain.com> Message-ID: <007701c72a19$a65f9760$7ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I've been on this list for 4.5 years and to me this is the most > interesting post you've made to this list, Bob. You may believe I'm > congratulating myself-- but (I think :) I'm not. My game, as you say in > so many words, is nothing. Just like Linda Gregg's prescription of > seeing 6 things per day is nothing. Of course, we're all going to see 6 > things. But-- here's the difference-- will we write them down? Will we > make a practice of careful observation? This is particularly challenging > to me because I think I have a habit of keeping the generalization and > throwing out the specific sensory experience. Well, C-man, you're trying to be nice, but I'll just say that if this is the best post I've made to the list, if it's even the best close reading I've posted to the list, I'll give up writing. > Okay, I'll ask the rest of the group: did any of all y'all read Bob's > post? Did it seem to you, as it does to me, that he was reporting his > specific esthetic interactions rather than his (usually foregone) > conclusion/generalization? Does the post interest you? > > Though you concluded that nothing had changed and you still didn't see > anything special in Transtr?mer -- in fact (well, I believe it's a fact) > you notated exactly what was your reaction and it was not precisely the > same as any other reaction you've had to any other poem. Similar, you > may say. --I grant you. But not exactly the same and therefore special > in that sense. The fact that you conclude that overall the experience > was not unique enough to repeat with other poems by him is immaterial. > That's just your 1 / 0 (yes / no) overall generalization which, because > most general, is most useless. You're confusing "special" with "different," Crisman. Every poem is different from every other poem in some way, so being different is not being special. > So, what I'm saying is that your specific esthetic reactions are valuable > to me, because they give me insight into your reading which your > generalizations do not. The problem is with you. I'm all for close readings. I'm also very much in favor of generalizations. Certainly, a comment that is a mere generalization, and intended as that, should not be faulted for not being a close reading. My saying or implying that Transtromer did nothing special should have the value of forcing someone else interested in him to think about just what he does that IS special. It will be more meaningful to those who have read other writings of mine, for they will know how I look at poems, and how much experience of poetry is behind my generality, etc., so may be find my comment useful if they value me as a commentation on poems, or write it off as just the kind of wrong thing I'd say about any Nobel-level poet's work. > Your specifics certainly inform my reading-- the advantage of going > second. > > Now, as I said before, I accept the coequal challenge of playing the game > myself with these three translations -- and I shall! But, please let me > beg off a few more days. I've just finished editing a poem I've been > working on for ten years. And I'm sending it out for outside review. > May I be granted a few days recess? > > Cris Take as long as you want. I may take longer to respond to what you post, but I will. (Ironically, I'm finishing up an essay I've written for a catalogue of visual poetry in which I discussed 84 poems, most of them after close-readings! Not all of what I said will be in the final version of the essay, though. And it is almost always easier to close read a visual poem than a traditional one, because of the brevity of their texts. --Bob From LauraHeidy at aol.com Wed Dec 27 19:53:56 2006 From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:53:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/27/2006 6:56:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Rebuketheworld at aol.com writes: . Its inborn. Its natural. I know I have a style and that is pretty obvious And just what, pray tell, is your "style?" While it may be quite obvious to you, I've been having some trouble finding it. And I'm not sure I don't agree with those who are questioning your sincerity. Apologies if I am mistaken. It's just that it's hard to believe anyone could have been reading here for any length of time and then just jumped right in and raised their own flag quite so readily. New poet or not, it still seems like a sort of strange thing to do. Besides which, I'm not sure anyone (much less "everyone") has this elusive thing called "style." Some people have a voice which remains specifically theirs, but most good poets can (and do) write in all kinds of "styles" and be fresh and interesting each and every time. Sometimes people think style is something as simple as refusing to use capital letters or punctuation....it worked well enough for cummings but it doesn't work quite so well for anyone else, regardless of how they try to convince us to the contrary. It's not fresh, it's not innovative, it's not even cute.....it's just annoying and lazy. I am curious as to why you think style is inborn and natural? Do you really think that people like Dickinson, Shakespeare, Lewis Carroll, and/or Elliot (maybe not everyone's choice of great poets, but poets with undeniable and recognizable voice) just sat down and freekin wrote their poems? There's not much inborn about the ability to produce good poetry unless it's the hard-learned ability to be willing to work long and hard with little or no reward forthcoming. There's not much "natural" about poetry, either, is there? Most of it is worked and reworked until it's as perfect as it can get. If words are natural (and I believe they are) then poetry is words which have been forced into girdles, pantyhose, bras, and wigs and not only that, but it's wearing full-on make up. Words are not "pretty" by themselves, words are only pretty when they're dressed up. Personally, I best like them all dressed up in formal attire, but I'm a bit of an anomaly here. :) Lo lauraheidy.blogspot.com Lo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 20:55:33 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:55:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Raven, you entirely missed what I was saying about the self. You think that style is an image of the self, but it's not. Style is about your submission to language; it is an escape from self. That's all I'm going to say about this. If you have ears to hear, you'll understand; if not, it doesn't really matter. There will just be a few more web pages of bad writing on the internet. But, look, if you're going to come on a list populated by poets, you ought to try to write grammatical sentences & get your apostrophes right. Otherwise, you wind up with no respect. An example: In English, you cannot write (grammatically) that something "forgoes into" something else. It just ain't English. And the "as" in that sentence is a grammatical cop-out without any precise function except as a bridge to the next phrase. If you were my student, I would walk you through your sentences one by one, but I'm not getting paid here. Now, if you don't care about things like grammar & punctuation, that's fine. But if you don't care about them, you are not a poet or even a baby poet, you are just someone writing some stuff on the internet. No crime there, of course, except the crime of self-deception. Until jfq weighed in, folks on the list have been been mostly supportive of your efforts & have made suggestions toward things you might want to think about. And while you have thanked everyone for their criticisms, you haven't really heard a thing. You might want to get yourself an anthology or two or three of poetry in English -- some older stuff & some contemporary -- & read through them. You don't have to go in order, just flip around. But if you find that you don't pick the books up & return to them, then you don't really have any attraction to poetry except as a sort of lifestyle. Imagine going up to a bunch of relatively accomplished visual artists & asking them to critique your first efforts at painting a person or a mountain or an apple. At first, they would probably give you polite encouragement, but if you persisted, they might very well -- as has happened here -- suggest you go to a museum or take some classes, or at least look at enough paintings that you knew what you were talking about. My first comment this morning in response to your posts was meant to be encouraging -- I thought you might think it worth your while to go study Time Magazine thinks: Poetry: It's not about you. I've taken the time to write this because I care about the art of poetry. I would like for you to care, too, but ultimately that's your business. At the moment, what you care about is self-expression, something entirely different from poetry, which is an art with a history, a body of techniques & lore, a whole slew of criticism & commentary, etc. If you want to write poetry, you simply need to learn about those things. Writing-while-reading is the best way I know to learn what you need to know. That, basically, is what people have been saying to you here. I'm trying not to be unkind while still being honest. And maybe helpful. And please, if you respond, feel free to call me Joe. jd -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Dec 27 21:23:09 2006 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:23:09 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F35F857-F617-452D-BAC6-02544EB4287C@earthlink.net> I'm just going to weigh in here in defense of Raven or Rebuketheworld.com.... It's not that I am against style, or even "poetic style," for I have certainly been seduced by writers who may be called stylists... and back in the day, when I submitted my poetry to the gatekeepers, on many an occasion I was praised for a distinctive style, and all that. But it wasn't really all that important to me, wasn't the thing I was going for, and after awhile I found that such praise on the grounds of stylistic achievement began to feel hollow especially as my style changed (or "went out of style" as "THE style" changed) Of course, nowadays there allegedly is a wide range of acceptable poetic styles, but the main point I want to make is that all this high talk of the standards of style, even by people whose writing I respect, for me tends to bring the worst out in people; leaves a bad taste in my mouth. When I taught as a visiting poet at an MFA program a few years back, I began to feel that I was expected to have some kind of ultimate style standards and play some authority role in enforcing them, but it just felt like it was wrong for me.... Those Frank O'Hara lines (from the personism manifesto) about the middle-aged parental figure force feeding kept on coming back to me, and I just couldn't bring myself to be that... O'Hara certainly had 'poetic style,' but just did his thing (showed by example)... other quotes like "if a fool persists in his folly..." (Blake paraphrase....) or, "the things that I must do consist of more than style..." (Arthur Lee, Love) or "poets study rules of verse, and the ladies they roll their eyes," (Lou Reed) might be useful in this context.... Anyway, just wanted to say Rave on, raven.... Chris From LauraHeidy at aol.com Wed Dec 27 21:41:12 2006 From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 21:41:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/27/2006 8:56:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, duemer at gmail.com writes: Raven, you entirely missed what I was saying about the self. You think that style is an image of the self, but it's not. Style is about your submission to language; it is an escape from self. That's all I'm going to say about this. If you have ears to hear, you'll understand; if not, it doesn't really matter. There will just be a few more web pages of bad writing on the internet. "Poetry is not a turning loose of emotion, but an escape from emotion; it is not the expression of a personality, but an escape from personality. But, of course, only those who have personality know what it means to want to escape these things" T. S. Elliot -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 22:03:25 2006 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:03:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a0612271903r1c67ee19rac3f90876bd2a72b@mail.gmail.com> I thought of those lines, as well. Thanks for posting them, Lo. Jeff Newberry On 12/27/06, LauraHeidy at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/27/2006 8:56:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > duemer at gmail.com writes: > > Raven, you entirely missed what I was saying about the self. You think > that style is an image of the self, but it's not. Style is about your > submission to language; it is an escape from self. That's all I'm going to > say about this. If you have ears to hear, you'll understand; if not, it > doesn't really matter. There will just be a few more web pages of bad > writing on the internet. > > *"Poetry is not a turning loose of emotion, but an escape from emotion; > it is not the expression of a personality, but an escape from personality. > But, of course, only those who have personality know what it means to want > to escape these things"* T. S. Elliot > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Memory believes before knowing remembers. Believes longer than recollects, longer than knowing even wonders." ?William Faulkner, Light in August http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 22:04:18 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:04:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Duemer, I deliberately misplace or incorrectly apply grammar in a way that brings out a deeper meaning to what I am trying to get across. This is possible with any language. Using nouns as adjectives, adjectives as nouns, etc., Am I the only one who has done this? A friend of mine, a writer wrote this to me- As for grammar, and word placement. That's a choice of your own. You don't have to agree with suggested changes. Read E.E. Cummings. He pretty much told all critics and like minded individuals who implied he used bad grammar, 'wrong' words and strange formats to fuck off. He was the brilliant one for doing so and he's considered famous for it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 22:07:17 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:07:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <4F35F857-F617-452D-BAC6-02544EB4287C@earthlink.net> References: <4F35F857-F617-452D-BAC6-02544EB4287C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Chris, I'm not talking about style as class, which is what you're assuming, I think. And to imagine that there might be any poetry w/o "gatekeepers" -- or any social system at all w/o judgment strikes me as willfully naive. Now, to ask that those "gatekeepers" be intelligent & just, that's another matter, but to reject the idea of judgment is to reject the very basis, not just of art, but of ethics. Raven may very well "rave on" & I suppose there are a few John Clares out there who might transcend the gatekeepers. Spelling isn't everything, after all. In fact, I'm a lousy speller. But Clare was drawing on the ballad tradition & the tradition of 18th century popular pastoral verse. That is, he knew something, he came from somewhere. The fact that I can address you with such an argument depends on the fact that you know some of the same things I know. Raven, on the evidence, doesn't know any of these things. That's not a deficit until one asserts a claim, as Raven has done, for recognition & approval. It's about playing a particular sort of game, isn't it? I tried to suggest this with my analogy to the visual arts. Raven showing up on this mailing list is like me showing up to play a game of cricket -- I don't know the rules. And "rules" here need not be taken in the sense of an authoritarian imposition -- just the sense that Wittgenstein played with rules in the Philosophical Investigations. Of course, it is always possible that a writer will come along who can reinvent the game from the ground up. Anything is possible. It sounds, though, from your post that you have given up playing the game. You say you "used to" submit your work to the gatekeepers, the implication being that you're above all that now. You & Raven. Finally, you quote Blake on folly. I wrote earlier in this thread that "reading-while-writing" was the best way to learn poetry. Blake was steeped in Milton & the work of his contemporaries & the KJV Bible. The key word in Blake's aphorism is "persists." And Lou Reed's ladies can roll their eyes all they want, showing how fucking cool they are, but that won't make Lou Reed a poet. What it will do is make him cool, because he doesn't study the "rules of verse." That's just anti-intellectual twaddle. Chris, you know "the rules of verse" as well as I do & pretending that you don't is disingenuous. It also strikes me as condescending toward people like Raven. jd -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Dec 27 22:08:49 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:08:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <008201c72a2d$7f911d20$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> I suspect that we've given Raven the feedback that she was here for, and there's not much more we can add. You can't convince someone that she should be reading poetry when she's convinced that there's nothing there for her, beyond maybe some Bukowski. The problem is, it's the old Santayana bromide about those who don't remember the past. If you don't read, if you can't find a level at which you're excited to trembling about the miracles that people have achieved with language, there's a limit to what you can build on, and you most likely will write pretty much what many others who want to use poetry to express themselves, but don't really care about poetry, have written. I remember -- because it's so rare -- one time when I actually got through to a student with this message. It was a screenwriting class, and in screenwriting as in poetry or any other art form, you have to listen to the dialog before you have something to add. So I gave the same advice -- see every movie ever made. One student came to me after class, and asked, wouldn't seeing all those other movies hamper his creativity? I had just been reading a book on directing the film, which had advice and anecdotes from various directors on various subjects. One was color, and Rouben Mamoulian, a skilled but not major director, talked about how if you're going for heightened emotion, you edit with color, and you move toward red. He described a movie he'd directed about the British raj in India -- a military ball, which would lead into an emotionally charged scene between the two leads. The technical adviser told him that protocol dictated the redcoated offices leave last, but he decided they'd have to scrap protocol. His assistant directors managed to get all the women in blue gowns together, and get them out of the room, then all the women in green, then yellow...and finally the redcoats. No one commented much about that scene one way or the other - certainly not about the violation of protocol - but everyone was moved by the emotional intensity of the following scene. If this so-so director knew that much about the effect on emotional power of a single technical aspect of filmmaking, I asked my student, do you really feel that you have to worry about knowing too much? He got the point. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? >a lot of people who have spent a lot of time studying an art form get >annoyed when some dilletante shows up acting like they know what's what and >speaking out of ignorance about things related to that art form that they >obviously don't understand. and those people can tell that said dilletante >doesn't know what he or she is talking about because they can look at the >dilletante's output and see all the flaws that the dilletante doesn't see >with his or her less cultivated eyes. other people will just shake their >head and sigh because they know that the dilletante will not listen to >anything that the dilletante disagrees with and as such he or she will >never rise above the mediocrity that they are so desperate to elevate >themselves above. > > i'm not saying i agree or disagree that a style is inborn. just that it's > obvious to me and everyone else on the list, i think, that you don't > really know what you're doing, and haven't thought through the > implications of what you're saying. > > you really only have one choice at this point, and that's whether or not > you want to continue to be a dilletante. > > of course, if you are a dilletante, you don't know you're one and you'll > just be offended. It's a bit of a catch 22. > > > On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > >> Duemer, I dont think a style can be only yours. There is too much history >> and examples to be so arrogant to think your the only one who writes as >> you do. >> I will disagree with you on this- style. Its inborn. Its natural. I know >> I >> have a style and that is pretty obvious. A style is your creation and >> the >> how's and why's in what moves you to write but I also know that my style >> needs to >> grow. Its not a blank or empty start. >> Thanks again~~Raven >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 22:08:05 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:08:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Laura, I use modifiers, metaphors, loads and loads of imagery and I misuse language on purpose. That's my starting point for style but I also write about what I feel which is a somewhat dark and depth. I write about what plaques man. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 22:11:32 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:11:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Laura, also what plaques man is often what plaques me or of someone I know. Duemer- Poetry is not always an escape from self. Sometimes it is self or forms of it. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 22:19:40 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:19:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <008201c72a2d$7f911d20$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> References: <008201c72a2d$7f911d20$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: Tad, I agree with what you write. I would only add, to Raven, that Cummings' "misuse" of grammar depends upon an exquisite understanding of grammar & I would ask, what higher purpose is served by writing "its" rather than "it's" for "it is"? Perhaps it has something to do with Kant & trancendentalism, but this subtle poetic misuse of ordinary language is beyond my grasp. Anyway, my argument is now with Chris. I think it's an interesting argument worth pursuing on its own. jd On 12/27/06, TheOldMole wrote: > > I suspect that we've given Raven the feedback that she was here for, and > there's not much more we can add. You can't convince someone that she > should > be reading poetry when she's convinced that there's nothing there for her, > beyond maybe some Bukowski. > > The problem is, it's the old Santayana bromide about those who don't > remember the past. If you don't read, if you can't find a level at which > you're excited to trembling about the miracles that people have achieved > with language, there's a limit to what you can build on, and you most > likely > will write pretty much what many others who want to use poetry to express > themselves, but don't really care about poetry, have written. > > I remember -- because it's so rare -- one time when I actually got through > to a student with this message. It was a screenwriting class, and in > screenwriting as in poetry or any other art form, you have to listen to > the > dialog before you have something to add. So I gave the same advice -- see > every movie ever made. One student came to me after class, and asked, > wouldn't seeing all those other movies hamper his creativity? I had just > been reading a book on directing the film, which had advice and anecdotes > from various directors on various subjects. One was color, and Rouben > Mamoulian, a skilled but not major director, talked about how if you're > going for heightened emotion, you edit with color, and you move toward > red. > He described a movie he'd directed about the British raj in India -- a > military ball, which would lead into an emotionally charged scene between > the two leads. The technical adviser told him that protocol dictated the > redcoated offices leave last, but he decided they'd have to scrap > protocol. > His assistant directors managed to get all the women in blue gowns > together, > and get them out of the room, then all the women in green, then > yellow...and > finally the redcoats. No one commented much about that scene one way or > the > other - certainly not about the violation of protocol - but everyone was > moved by the emotional intensity of the following scene. > > If this so-so director knew that much about the effect on emotional power > of > a single technical aspect of filmmaking, I asked my student, do you really > feel that you have to worry about knowing too much? > > He got the point. > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:07 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > > >a lot of people who have spent a lot of time studying an art form get > >annoyed when some dilletante shows up acting like they know what's what > and > >speaking out of ignorance about things related to that art form that they > >obviously don't understand. and those people can tell that said > dilletante > >doesn't know what he or she is talking about because they can look at the > >dilletante's output and see all the flaws that the dilletante doesn't see > >with his or her less cultivated eyes. other people will just shake their > >head and sigh because they know that the dilletante will not listen to > >anything that the dilletante disagrees with and as such he or she will > >never rise above the mediocrity that they are so desperate to elevate > >themselves above. > > > > i'm not saying i agree or disagree that a style is inborn. just that > it's > > obvious to me and everyone else on the list, i think, that you don't > > really know what you're doing, and haven't thought through the > > implications of what you're saying. > > > > you really only have one choice at this point, and that's whether or not > > you want to continue to be a dilletante. > > > > of course, if you are a dilletante, you don't know you're one and you'll > > just be offended. It's a bit of a catch 22. > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > > >> Duemer, I dont think a style can be only yours. There is too much > history > >> and examples to be so arrogant to think your the only one who writes as > >> you do. > >> I will disagree with you on this- style. Its inborn. Its natural. I > know > >> I > >> have a style and that is pretty obvious. A style is your creation and > >> the > >> how's and why's in what moves you to write but I also know that my > style > >> needs to > >> grow. Its not a blank or empty start. > >> Thanks again~~Raven > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 22:23:13 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:23:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Thank you Chris. After re-reading what you wrote,lol...sorry, it is outside of my expertise AND reading duemers response, how can I say anything? I do not know of the people you write about. There are some truths that do not require fine wine--- When I spoke of my style it wasn't arrogance, I feel I have one. Its all a journey and I look forward to where my style will be in a year from now and onward. I wonder if I will find a poet who is similar to me or if me choosing not to use line breaks or obey grammar rules, will change? It will be worth it all because having just started this type of writing, I really love how I feel when I do it. Isn't that what its all about? And, maybe a reader will understand what I am saying and they will gain from it. That would be wonderful. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Wed Dec 27 22:28:28 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:28:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Chris, just for clarity when I wrote this- "There are some truths that do not require fine wine--- " I meant that in terms of acknowledging that I feel I have an inital style. I didn't want to offend you because your the expert as well as the others here. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.lott at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 03:26:22 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:26:22 -0900 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_Re:_Crisman's_Game_re:_Transtr=F6mer?= In-Reply-To: <007701c72a19$a65f9760$7ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <200612241700.kBOH048X011635@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <24A2EE3A-A997-46A1-A9A3-C24EEE9B7887@overdomain.com> <007701c72a19$a65f9760$7ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612280026k1b64ec5ftbf91bbd29c870fbf@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/06, Bob Grumman wrote: > And it is almost always easier to close read a visual poem > than a traditional one, because of the brevity of their texts. It's funny to hear you say that since you seemed to be somewhat offended when I made the same point in a different way about one word poems. I continue to feel that most such poems are "successful" only insofar as they leave immense latitude for the reader to make up whatever they want to about them and to have whatever particular reaction they wish to have that may have very little to do with the "poem" in question. What seems to me to be lacking in such poems is exactly the stuff I think poetry really is. One man's close reading is another person't fiction, I guess. With an almost endless amount of room to interpret, associate, and contextualize, such poems are all about the reader. Which is why it might work well for one person and not at all for another and it's not the poem's responsibility either way, really. You said something similar yourself about the poem "JOE" when you said such poems were successful only if they inspired the reader in some way (to paraphrase since I don't feel like searching your blog)... but with but one word that inspiration is rather arbitrary (not to mention that it takes the wind out of one's critical sails when trying to knock the parodic knockoffs made on the list here). To be specific, how is it a work of art to throw out a single word? Or how is the art differentiated from all other single words? I speak here not of coinages, for which I have much more sympathy, but about poems like "JOE" and "tundra" -- And I'm not trying to be smart or combative, I really am puzzled. Everything you say about a poem like "JOE" or "tundra" (which is really ironic, in a way, since I've been in and on real tundra in some rather interesting circumstances) is something YOU created and assigned to it. How is that poem thus validated more than my epic poem "O" or "carrion", both of which I could (because there is so little to contain me :) propound upon for dozens of pages? c From chris.lott at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 03:37:14 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:37:14 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612280037p68587c63xd2ed1eb7572e9c45@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/06, Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > Some more samples- I do have a style. I just don't know what it is yet. > ~Raven Well, the poems don't really say anything to me, but that means very little. You say that your choices aren't random but used for effect, but I'm not sure what the effect is. I'm reminded very slightly of prose poems by Eileen Tabios, which I come back to fairly often in the hope that someday I'll understand what they are saying. Eileen has told me, essentially, that worrying about what poems are saying is worrying about the wrong thing. Somehow that doesn't comfort me. I don't much get the cummings comparison (except as far a the possibly good advice to know when to tell critics to fuck off). When I read cummings he speaks to me. The choices he makes to break "rules" and conventions have reasons that I generally feel I can understand. He's one of my favorite poets (I've now lost any amount of esteem I might have had here, where I suspect cummings is seen as at least as much a primitive as the quiet poets and as uninteresting as Simic). Which may be the problem-- I think the difference between a cummings poem and lackluster experiments like "JOE" or many of the language poets is exactly that cummings did the work that I understand as creating poetry, the artistic labor, where the other poets seem to be playing often elaborate games and relying upon effects which are more like tricks, flash, bling-- you name it. Maybe you need to make things easier which might or might not mean not trying so hard. I almost hope you are an impostor now! If you aren't, your reception isn't likely to comfort lurkers or later newcomers :) c -- Chris Lott From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 03:46:39 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 03:46:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Thank you Chris. I have learned so much today that I feel drained. I am going to do something that I had fought off inside but I will rewrite my poems with line breaks. This wont take long but in that format, I will look at it differently. I have watched this board for weeks. I enjoy hearing how everyone goes back and forth. It gets pretty heated in here. I am sorry you got nothing from my short writings. I have received different feedback and some have genuinely been moved. I do have comments at my blog but unfortunately, more people email me than leave comments. We are moved differently. For instance, I wouldn't be emotionally moved by one word poems. I want the writer to take me somewhere and not let the gates be open to anything. I think of that as playing it safe. Anyway, I will step away and observe. I have much to learn.~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LauraHeidy at aol.com Thu Dec 28 06:38:21 2006 From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 06:38:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/27/2006 10:08:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Rebuketheworld at aol.com writes: Laura, I use modifiers, metaphors, loads and loads of imagery and I misuse language on purpose. That's my starting point for style but I also write about what I feel which is a somewhat dark and depth. I write about what plaques man. ~Raven Modifiers, metaphors and imagery do not a poet make. I'm sorry, Raven, those are all good things, of course, but merely using them does not make someone a poet, especially if they are used simply for the sake of being used. Again, I ask you - what is "style?" Anyone can take an already common type of writing and mimic it, thereby using a "style" of writing which has already been established, but that still doesn't make them a poet - it makes them a mimic. If you insist on misusing grammar, misspelling words, and paying no attention to structure or punctuation, you are not being "stylish" you are trying to be cummings. My point is, there already IS a cummings and he already did what he did and it worked for him because it was new and innovative at the time, but it's not new and innovative anymore. Now it's just tired and a wee bit annoying to those of us who really respect structure and grammar. I can't speak for everyone, of course, and I am certainly not trying to, but personally, even cummings annoys me. :) I read and reread the bits you posted here in another email earlier, and for the life of me, the "style" I saw was Harliquinistic. (how's that for making up - and probably misspelling - a new word?) Of course it works for some people...and some people love reading it and other people make a fortune churning it out, but it's just not good poetry. It's overblown hyperbole. Poetry shouldn't beat people over the head with it's "depth and range" it should sneak up quietly and take root in the reader's head and haunt him. For instance, your use of the word "plaque" didn't make me gasp or make me think "oh, how original to use a noun as a verb" or make me smile and think "good job." It simply make me think of the dentist's chair. In less, of course, you meant "plague" - which would more only make more sense and create much better imagery, but would also point out, in a much better way than I ever could, just how important spelling is when trying to get a point across. Lo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Dec 28 07:07:28 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:07:28 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Colin Wilson Message-ID: <006f01c72a78$beae13f0$e3a83452@ANNY> An interesting interview by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino to Colin Wilson on Jeffrey Side's The Argotist Online: http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Wilson%20interview.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LauraHeidy at aol.com Thu Dec 28 07:32:44 2006 From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 07:32:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: <461.9e0b31a.32c5136c@aol.com> In a message dated 12/28/2006 6:39:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: In less, of course, you meant "plague" - which would more only make more sense and create much better imagery, but would also point out, in a much better way than I ever could, just how important spelling is when trying to get a point across. Let's rewrite that last bit, shall we? And make it actually readable. Geesh. You'd think I'd eventually learn to proofread my own junk.... especially when I am questioning someone else's. In less, of course, you meant "plague" - which would NOT ONLY make more sense and create much better imagery, but would also point out, in a much better way than I ever could, just how important spelling is when trying to get a point across. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suelin7184 at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 08:35:24 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 07:35:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <008201c72a85$08637060$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Dear Raven, Please explain the purpose for your misuse of language in the following line: Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. Thanks, Linda Sue ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Laura, I use modifiers, metaphors, loads and loads of imagery and I misuse language on purpose. That's my starting point for style but I also write about what I feel which is a somewhat dark and depth. I write about what plaques man. ~Raven ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 08:52:01 2006 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 06:52:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <008201c72a85$08637060$0201a8c0@LindaSue> References: <008201c72a85$08637060$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Message-ID: <648208b60612280552u724a553ag8c5cb8891f3b36f8@mail.gmail.com> On 12/28/06, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: > > > Dear Raven, > > Please explain the purpose for your misuse of language in the following > line: > > Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. > > Thanks, > Linda Sue Not bad if cleaned up: In the deep forests, the baritone wind has had its time. Leaves shuffle before snow weighs them down. Of course that is derivative. -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning ~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/ From suelin7184 at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 09:01:41 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:01:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <008201c72a85$08637060$0201a8c0@LindaSue> <648208b60612280552u724a553ag8c5cb8891f3b36f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301c72a88$b4915250$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Well, thanks, James, but I'm still interested in hearing Raven's purpose for the misuse. Linda Sue ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:52 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > On 12/28/06, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: >> >> >> Dear Raven, >> >> Please explain the purpose for your misuse of language in the following >> line: >> >> Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. >> >> Thanks, >> Linda Sue > > Not bad if cleaned up: > > In the deep forests, the baritone wind has had its time. > Leaves shuffle before snow weighs them down. > > Of course that is derivative. > > -- Jim > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > ~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From rsillima at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 09:25:03 2006 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 06:25:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Giant MLA poetry reading Message-ID: <293646.74030.qm@web31806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The giant off-site reading at this year?s MLA meeting occurs Friday, at 9:00 PM at the Philadelphia Art Alliance, 251 South 18th Street, near the southeast corner of Rittenhouse Square. Readers for the two-hour event include: Aaron Kunin Adam Fieled Sasha Steensen Dennis Barone Aldon Neilsen Bill Howe Bob Perelman Brent Cunningham Brian Stefans C. A. Conrad Camille Martin Carla Harryman Caroline Bergvall Cathy Eisenhower Charles Bernstein Christian Bok Eduardo Espino Elaine Terranova Ethel Rackin Evie Shockley Frank Sherlock Hank Lazer Herman Beavers Jena Osman Jenn McCreary Jennifer Scappetone Joan Retallack Johanna Drucker John Wilkinson Josh Schuster Barrett Watten Kathy Lou Schultz Lamont Steptoe Laura Moriarty Leevi Lehto Linda Russo Linh Dinh Loren Goodman Mark Wallace Matthew Cooperman Michael Tod Edgerton Michael Davidson Nat Anderson Nick Monfort Norma Cole Patrick Durgin Peter Middleton Prageeta Sharma Rachel DuPlessis Ron Silliman Susan Schultz Timothy Yu Tom Devaney Tom Orange Tyrone Williams Walter Lew Will Esposito Yunte Huang From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Dec 28 09:30:23 2006 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 09:30:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Paul Klee, "The retrospective view . . ." Message-ID: <705E7A12-74C7-4269-8CF3-C5373A613284@earthlink.net> The retrospective view at the end of the year should perhaps be taken more seriously than before. It's not such a harmless pass-time to bring children into the world. Bluish across the horizon, phosphorescing sheet-lightning. I, as actor, with folded arms at the centre of the circle: 'Let it lightning!' The pose, meanwhile, didn't last long. One becomes in the course of one day, for a while, a bit larger, and then a bit smaller again. Something of the spirit of Joseph the carpenter is also appropriate to such a small-scale patriarch. Something of the sublimity, something of the pretension, something of the bizarre, something of the spiritual, all lying under lock and key. --Paul Klee tr. Harriet Watts in Three Painter-Poets: Arp/Schwitters/Klee [Baltimore: Penguin Books, 1974] Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com halvard at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 28 10:05:13 2006 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:05:13 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <008201c72a85$08637060$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Message-ID: <004301c72a91$9b628ca0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> << Dear Raven, Please explain the purpose for your misuse of language in the following line: "Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time." Thanks, Linda Sue >> There is, of course, a notorious case where grammar is deformed for a very specific effect, and that's in Nigerian Scam emails, where the impression is meant to be one of "authenticity." Hm ... Seems to me the general problem of interpretation, as when a clich? is used in a poem, is knowing when the (mis)usage is deliberate, and when it is simply the result of ignorance. Only *after that do we get to the point of considering whether such a treatment of language actually does anything worthwhile. Then there's the difficulty of proving identity *within the bounds of a system. Does an appeal to other electronic sources (a blog) or the deployment of a visual artefact prove anything one way or the other? I've met, in meatspce, a few people on this list, so I suppose I must exist, despite not having an email address linked to an academic institution, which is a Strong Indicator of authenticity, an email address followed by .ac (UK) or .ed (US), such being harder to scam than a Hotmail address, say. If I were to run an heteronym, the first thing I'd do would be to fancy up a blog, complete with pictures, to be able to refer to to "prove" my existence. Not hard to do. Having said that, despite neither having met him nor to my knowledge having met anyone who has, I have no doubt whatsoever as to the authenticity of Bob Grumman. His style is both distinctive and appealing, a difficult combination to create out of entire cybercloth. (Possibly) Robin From tad at opus40.org Thu Dec 28 10:58:39 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:58:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <008201c72a85$08637060$0201a8c0@LindaSue> <648208b60612280552u724a553ag8c5cb8891f3b36f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c72a99$0b1532d0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> >>>Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. Actually, "Into the deep forests, the baritone winds" appears to use "winds" as a verb, since "baritone" can be a noun. The baritone takes a circuitous route into the deep forests. So one could just as easily rewrite the line as: >>>Into the deep forests, the baritone winds. He has had his time. ...Not changing anything more than Jim did. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > On 12/28/06, Linda Sue Grimes wrote: >> >> >> Dear Raven, >> >> Please explain the purpose for your misuse of language in the following >> line: >> >> Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. >> >> Thanks, >> Linda Sue > > Not bad if cleaned up: > > In the deep forests, the baritone wind has had its time. > Leaves shuffle before snow weighs them down. > > Of course that is derivative. > > -- Jim > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > ~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bmarcacci at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 11:41:05 2006 From: bmarcacci at gmail.com (Bob Marcacci) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 00:41:05 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: somma the livliest back-n-fro in a whoa a while... maybe ever at least since i've been peeking in and only lately back at it... happy holidays and whatall all... curious about whether you are a native English speaker, Raven... is this question in poor taste? and, if you're going to fid wid da means and what it means you gotsta make it sure them they who understand you you know who know what it do... the words be clearly clear... all they do is that they do... and and if you don't understand something, it will continue to find you and ghost you and i'll toast to that still fighting my own happy new year... -- Bob Marcacci When was the last time you visited: http://marcacci.blogspot.com/ > From: > Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:08:05 EST > To: > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > Laura, I use modifiers, metaphors, loads and loads of imagery and I misuse > language on purpose. That's my starting point for style but I also write about > what I feel which is a somewhat dark and depth. I write about what plaques > man. ~Raven > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Dec 28 11:52:08 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:52:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <008201c72a85$08637060$0201a8c0@LindaSue> <004301c72a91$9b628ca0$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> Message-ID: <00fe01c72aa0$861d7580$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Wow, Robins, does I really got style! From the way this discussion has wottled, I was getting confused. Somewhere there shouldda been a definition of terms, I think. Raven comes off personable to me, and getting jumped on too much for simply defending (in an unabrasive way) what she's doing--as anyone would, it seems to me, except those who don't want to tangle with others, so say thank you--and ignore the advice they've been given. Her poem was too jump-cut for me, and the ungrammar didn't work--for the reason you gave. It doesn't forgo into an enlargement of her text the way some of Cummings's poems and other language poems do, nor does it make a depart into a worth awkwardly getting to rhythm or pun the way your favorite British poet, Dylan Thomas's, "gentle" does in his "Do Not Go Gentle Into the Night." I don't much care whether the Rave is real or not. She started a sometimes interesting flurring of exchanges--and got me a compliment! Thanks! --Bob From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Dec 28 13:58:30 2006 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:58:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c72ab2$307ca990$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Stephen Petroff, a young painter and poet back when I was a young writer wrote me once to the effect that it was not of much use pointing out problems in each other's work ("use" in terms of our poetic development, we weren't worrying about publishing), and continued with something to the effect that those who viably continues will discover their own errors. I know most creative writing workshops are predicated on the notion of find and exposing the shortcomings of other writers' work. They are also predicated on the notion of getting a text to publishable quality. I disagree with both notions, the first in part due to what my friend said almost 40 years ago, and run workshops focused on the writer, not the work, and with the bare minimum of negative comments. (Not knowing really what to do, I bumble around quite a bit, but the students have claimed to have become better.) I'm not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other aproached, but I'm interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Rebuketheworld at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 9:28 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Chris, just for clarity when I wrote this- "There are some truths that do not require fine wine--- " I meant that in terms of acknowledging that I feel I have an inital style. I didn't want to offend you because your the expert as well as the others here. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Dec 28 14:02:18 2006 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:02:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. (Prooofread version . . . sorry.) In-Reply-To: <000001c72ab2$307ca990$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <000a01c72ab2$b826bc00$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Stephen Petroff, a young painter and poet back when I was a young writer, wrote me once to the effect that it was not much use pointing out problems in each other's work ("use" in terms of our poetic development . . . we weren't worrying about publishing) and continued with something to the effect that those who viably continue will discover their own errors. I know most creative writing workshops are predicated on the notion of finding and pointing out the shortcomings of other writers' work. They are also predicated on the notion of getting a text up to publishable quality. I disagree with both notions, the first in part due to what my friend said almost 40 years ago, and I run workshops focused on the writer, not the work, and with the bare minimum of negative comments. (Not knowing really what to do, I "bumble" around quite a bit, but the students have claimed to have become better writers.) I'm not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other approach, but I'm interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Skip Fox Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:59 PM To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views' Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. Stephen Petroff, a young painter and poet back when I was a young writer wrote me once to the effect that it was not of much use pointing out problems in each other's work ("use" in terms of our poetic development, we weren't worrying about publishing), and continued with something to the effect that those who viably continues will discover their own errors. I know most creative writing workshops are predicated on the notion of find and exposing the shortcomings of other writers' work. They are also predicated on the notion of getting a text to publishable quality. I disagree with both notions, the first in part due to what my friend said almost 40 years ago, and run workshops focused on the writer, not the work, and with the bare minimum of negative comments. (Not knowing really what to do, I bumble around quite a bit, but the students have claimed to have become better.) I'm not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other aproached, but I'm interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Rebuketheworld at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 9:28 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Chris, just for clarity when I wrote this- "There are some truths that do not require fine wine--- " I meant that in terms of acknowledging that I feel I have an inital style. I didn't want to offend you because your the expert as well as the others here. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 14:15:43 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:15:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 3:39:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: Modifiers, metaphors and imagery do not a poet make. Laura, I described my style. The question is are my poetic writings interesting? It seems that you do not. There are plenty of poets past and present, that the reader must dig, take apart, analize word by word to understand. I know I don't have an expertise here but I have read some poetry that took quite a few reads to even get an idea of what the poet is saying. True, I am notorious for spell check errors. I rarely recheck what I type in emails. I just vent,lol. Also, I cant be a mimic to a writer if I have never read them before. If my style is a mimic, or a bad mimic as some say its coincidental. For instance, I sent this to Jeff last night. A comment I received that had a positive interpretation of my misuse of language. His comment doesn't apply just to #4. He had read many of them by the time he posted this. 4- Random Thoughts Connected... Whisper to me. How does one stone folly a pyramid? It takes years to build. I feel cold. A mind that knows not thyself. Too many words coming in. Sold templates glutton with breath. How come many weigh as much as one? I plead to sand domes. Soothe my mortar and fiercely blow. Crumbling stones belonging to one. Three points are reconstructed. What did I build? One on top of the other pays homage to the seal. Whispering, it knows no difference but I feel the debris. The air is not still. The comment- Whew! I can see I'm going to over stay my visitor's pass. The security guards in my mind keep tugging on my arm and telling me it is time to go, I've been exploring your journal way too long. But the Mind-Candy I find in your journal keeps me wandering around like in a museum: a repository of interesting objects connected with literature, art or science. Lets replace the "or" with "and." Raven's Museum. The Mind-Candy I've found here exploring your journal just won't let me go. I hope what I read when I first entered your journal about how you were going to shift priorities and do less blogging becomes a deleted statement in your thoughts. Your writing is eloquent and what's more the variety is diverse. I need to thank Aimer for providing the link to your journal and hope you continue to pursue your writing. It is indeed a treasure chest of creativity. This is one superb, interesting journal to enjoy! RIVER -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 14:24:48 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:24:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 5:36:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, suelin7184 at gmail.com writes: Dear Raven, Please explain the purpose for your misuse of language in the following line: Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. Thanks, Linda Sue Linda, baritone winds "has had" "its" time. I put "its" in there to give the wind ownership. If I left "it" out~ Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had time wouldnt be enough. I wanted time to be more than an hour. The baritone winds, the depth of what moves this woman to her despair or journey, I felt it was essential that the wind have accountability. If I wrote~ Into the deep forests, the baritone winds had time. This is fine but "has had" shows timeless. Our journeys have a different tense. Past, present, future..etc.,After all, the lady is the drawing is a ghost. I did write this as if she could be in a dream too. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LauraHeidy at aol.com Thu Dec 28 14:29:29 2006 From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:29:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 2:16:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Rebuketheworld at aol.com writes: For instance, I sent this to Jeff last night. A comment I received that had a positive interpretation of my misuse of language. His comment doesn't apply just to #4. He had read many of them by the time he posted this. You are right, Raven, poetry is subjective and its success depends almost as much on the reader as it does on the writer. I'm glad you've found people, such as Jeff, who can appreciate what you write. We should all be so lucky as to find an appreciative audience. I am, unfortunately, a lazy reader. I do not want to do the work when I read. I do the work when I write and I feel, wrongly I'm sure, that I am entitled to have other authors/poets do the same for me. That would be my failing, not yours. I don't mind looking a bit for a "hidden meaning" in content but looking for a whole different meaning of a word being used in place of another word in order to understand what the author is talking about just seems like way too much hassle for me. However, as I've said, that's just me. If your "style" of writing works for you and it works for your readers, then you're already a step ahead of me in the game of finding readers and I envy you that. Apologies if I've come down too hard on you. You have a right to your opinion and to your beliefs. Same as me, of course. :) We'll just agree to disagree, ok? Lo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 14:31:32 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:31:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: I am born and raised in America. I live in Portland, Oregon. English is my first and only language. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 14:41:21 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:41:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings haters In-Reply-To: <200612281700.kBSH058X006702@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <631930.2067.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Lo, "In less, of course, you meant" I see you are an expert in perfect grammar. I find your remarks about Cummings sort of presumptuous, since I think what he did opened up many possibilities that have yet to be exhausted. Although not a rabid fan of Cummings, I find the alternative position -- "you should respect grammar" to be rather repulsive for all kinds of reasons, at least insofar as it becomes a "position". _Write your English good_ if you want, but don't discourage others from building their _style_ in whatever sense they wish. What's certainly most vexing to me -- perhaps I'm alone on this -- is your rather tactless remarks to Raven, which look like flaming to me. Others here have succeeded in offering criticism in a both uncompromising and much more kind fashion, Lo. Keep reading, keep writing, Raven. Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From jfq at myuw.net Thu Dec 28 14:43:44 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:43:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. (Prooofread version . . . sorry.) In-Reply-To: <000a01c72ab2$b826bc00$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I've often felt that there is a strong homogenizing effect to advanced writing workshops. It's gotten to the point, particularly with short stories, where I feel like the short stories written by writers who've done a lot of formal writing workshops are a genre in and of themself. I've taken to calling it "workshop fiction" because while generally it would fall under the "literary fiction" umbrella, I think it makes sense to make a separate distinction for this particular kind of short story. The anthology Best New Voices 2006 is packed with examples. with poetry, i think the effect is less pronounced, particularly on the aesthetic fringes i tend to be more up to date on. still, i often wonder if the homogeneity of the sort of work you see in journals like Agni and the paris review these days isn't maybe due to the same effect. On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Skip Fox wrote: > Stephen Petroff, a young painter and poet back when I was a young writer, > wrote me once to the effect that it was not much use pointing out problems > in each other's work ("use" in terms of our poetic development . . . we > weren't worrying about publishing) and continued with something to the > effect that those who viably continue will discover their own errors. > > > > I know most creative writing workshops are predicated on the notion of > finding and pointing out the shortcomings of other writers' work. They are > also predicated on the notion of getting a text up to publishable quality. I > disagree with both notions, the first in part due to what my friend said > almost 40 years ago, and I run workshops focused on the writer, not the > work, and with the bare minimum of negative comments. (Not knowing really > what to do, I "bumble" around quite a bit, but the students have claimed to > have become better writers.) > > > > I'm not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other approach, but > I'm interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Skip Fox > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:59 PM > To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views' > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. > > > > Stephen Petroff, a young painter and poet back when I was a young writer > wrote me once to the effect that it was not of much use pointing out > problems in each other's work ("use" in terms of our poetic development, we > weren't worrying about publishing), and continued with something to the > effect that those who viably continues will discover their own errors. > > > > I know most creative writing workshops are predicated on the notion of find > and exposing the shortcomings of other writers' work. They are also > predicated on the notion of getting a text to publishable quality. I > disagree with both notions, the first in part due to what my friend said > almost 40 years ago, and run workshops focused on the writer, not the work, > and with the bare minimum of negative comments. (Not knowing really what to > do, I bumble around quite a bit, but the students have claimed to have > become better.) > > > > I'm not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other aproached, but > I'm interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Rebuketheworld at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 9:28 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > > > Chris, just for clarity when I wrote this- "There are some truths that do > not require fine wine--- " I meant that in terms of acknowledging that I > feel I have an inital style. I didn't want to offend you because your the > expert as well as the others here. ~Raven > > From screwzbaran at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 14:43:58 2006 From: screwzbaran at gmail.com (Suzanne Baran) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:43:58 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings haters In-Reply-To: <631930.2067.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200612281700.kBSH058X006702@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <631930.2067.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0612281143v19a59db9i41652c2afabd0bd3@mail.gmail.com> WELL SAID!!!! On 12/28/06, Alexander Dickow wrote: > > Lo, > "In less, of course, you meant" > I see you are an expert in perfect grammar. > I find your remarks about Cummings sort of > presumptuous, since I think what he did opened up many > possibilities that have yet to be exhausted. Although > not a rabid fan of Cummings, I find the alternative > position -- "you should respect grammar" to be rather > repulsive for all kinds of reasons, at least insofar > as it becomes a "position". _Write your English good_ > if you want, but don't discourage others from building > their _style_ in whatever sense they wish. > What's certainly most vexing to me -- perhaps I'm > alone on this -- is your rather tactless remarks to > Raven, which look like flaming to me. Others here have > succeeded in offering criticism in a both > uncompromising and much more kind fashion, Lo. > Keep reading, keep writing, Raven. > Amicalement, > Alex > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "The reader, the thinker, the flaneur, are types of illuminati just as much as the opium eater, the dreamer, the ecstatic. ? Not to mention that most terrible drug - ourselves - which we take in solitude." - Walter Benjamin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Thu Dec 28 14:45:26 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:45:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: i think the question was more why you have the pronoun disagreeing as to number with the noun. On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/28/2006 5:36:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, > suelin7184 at gmail.com writes: > > Dear Raven, > > Please explain the purpose for your misuse of language in the following > line: > > Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. > > Thanks, > Linda Sue > > > > Linda, baritone winds "has had" "its" time. > > I put "its" in there to give the wind ownership. If I left "it" out~ Into > the deep forests, the baritone winds has had time wouldnt be enough. I wanted > time to be more than an hour. The baritone winds, the depth of what moves > this woman to her despair or journey, I felt it was essential that the wind have > accountability. > > > If I wrote~ Into the deep forests, the baritone winds had time. This is fine > but "has had" shows timeless. Our journeys have a different tense. Past, > present, future..etc.,After all, the lady is the drawing is a ghost. I did write > this as if she could be in a dream too. ~Raven > From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 14:58:55 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:58:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings haters, again In-Reply-To: <200612281700.kBSH058X006702@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20061228195855.46292.qmail@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Oops, being behind in my reading and having just read Jason's post on "dilettantism", I should add I'd take issue to that too. And other things. But, passons -- I just think we should encourage Raven rather than discourage her, and I'd agree with Bob that this is a really interesting thread. Hope to follow up, happy new year to all -- Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From LauraHeidy at aol.com Thu Dec 28 15:01:19 2006 From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:01:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 1:58:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, skip at louisiana.edu writes: I?m not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other aproached, but I?m interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. How does one's writing ever get better if no one ever tells them it's not yet good enough or why? I tend to wiggle when someone tells me something I've written is good....but I tend to work more when they tell me it is not - especially if they are kind enough to point out why it isn't. Personally speaking, it's easy to get too close to something being worked on and the mistakes or the poor choices I've made don't always reach up and slap me in the face like they will to someone without a time/effort-stake in the poem. While I agree that praise is a wonderful thing to get, I must also add that sometimes criticism is a wonderful thing to get as well. I loved it when I thought my kids were being perfect angels at school, I hated hearing different, but had I never actually heard different they may never have ended up being well behaved in the end. If I remain unaware of a problem, be it a child behavioral problem or a poetic-type problem, I would never have the opportunity to fix it or to learn from it. Perhaps it works if you only praise the good stuff and ignore the not-so-good stuff, but I think that's taking a chance that people will not understand what is not being said. I don't think people reach for things they think they have already attained. But, then again, that's just me and my opinion, and while I really do try not to be a "flamer" I do get opinionated sometimes and mouthy about those opinions. I really am sorry if it got misunderstood or came across as a nasty old cummings-hating biatch. Lo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Thu Dec 28 15:01:56 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:01:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: dilettante just means an unstudied dabbler. i know it has a slightly negative connotation, but only because most people who are unstudied resent having that pointed out to them. If it comes off as harsh, well, sorry. I just get the impression from your work & the comments that you've made and are making that you haven't tried very hard to understand the milieu of contemporary poetry. I did go to your site and did look at your work, and that's part of where i got the impression. i disagree with joe, i should note, about style. every writer has a style. style is built into texts and a good writer should have a high level control over the style of how they write. maybe i'm too infected with the romantic, but i still look at a poetic text as a statement by a person that's trying to communicate something. I also think that the methods of linguistic stylistics can be applied to any text and that commonalities will be found around an author. much of contemporary literary-historical analysis wouldn't be possible without it. I think to be a good writer in our era, one ought to be intimately acquainted with what ones tendencies are in the areas of one's stylistics so that one can be aware of the affect that they have. I also think that having such an understanding is more of a process than a goal. i suggest if you're sincere in exploring further as a writer you add to your poetry reading list a couple of good linguistics textbooks on generative phrase-structure grammar, lexical functional grammar, phonetics & phonology, and stylistics On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > dilletante? A bit harsh,lol. I did receive some good advice here. I did > acknowledge that I am a baby. I only disagreed with the logic that was given- "no > style." Not sure, how you came to all that you said but its sounds like you > have dealt with many arrogant people and I seem to fit in your stereotype's. > Maybe you should go to my website and see if I have no style and agree with > me, that I do and need to grow. Thank you ~Raven > From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 15:06:43 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:06:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 12:02:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, jfq at myuw.net writes: good linguistics textbooks on generative phrase-structure grammar, lexical functional grammar, phonetics & phonology, and stylistics You are right. In my own jargon, I think my deliberate misuse is being misused incorrectly. I want to show possession. I feel I am doing that wrong. Thank you for your feedback. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 15:08:22 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:08:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 11:45:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, jfq at myuw.net writes: i think the question was more why you have the pronoun disagreeing as to number with the noun. I have no idea what you meant here. Could you elaborate for me? ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From faustina1 at aol.com Thu Dec 28 15:11:08 2006 From: faustina1 at aol.com (faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:11:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C8F8D3722D1403-1368-960D@webmail-db05.sysops.aol.com> I haven't posted here in eons and yet this discussion is pulling me in, largely because I have been conducting class workshops for maybe 40 years and am still not convinced of their value. I try to get people to find something positive about each poem and to make constructive suggestions; they need to do both. But it often turns out to be the case that there's a strong voice in the class--often a somewhat charismatic person--who tends to lead the poetics of the class down his alley. I really want each to develop in his or her particular direction, but the class leader's principles tend to infiltrate everyone's poems. And the Hallmarkers are completely impervious; they simply do not hear the suggestions. I would like to think of or discover some completely new way of workshopping. Janet -----Original Message----- From: LauraHeidy at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In a message dated 12/28/2006 1:58:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, skip at louisiana.edu writes: I?m not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other aproached, but I?m interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. How does one's writing ever get better if no one ever tells them it's not yet good enough or why? I tend to wiggle when someone tells me something I've written is good....but I tend to work more when they tell me it is not - especially if they are kind enough to point out why it isn't. Personally speaking, it's easy to get too close to something being worked on and the mistakes or the poor choices I've made don't always reach up and slap me in the face like they will to someone without a time/effort-stake in the poem. While I agree that praise is a wonderful thing to get, I must also add that sometimes criticism is a wonderful thing to get as well. I loved it when I thought my kids were being perfect angels at school, I hated hearing different, but had I never actually heard different they may never have ended up being well behaved in the end. If I remain unaware of a problem, be it a child behavioral problem or a poetic-type problem, I would never have the opportunity to fix it or to learn from it. Perhaps it works if you only praise the good stuff and ignore the not-so-good stuff, but I think that's taking a chance that people will not understand what is not being said. I don't think people reach for things they think they have already attained. But, then again, that's just me and my opinion, and while I really do try not to be a "flamer" I do get opinionated sometimes and mouthy about those opinions. I really am sorry if it got misunderstood or came across as a nasty old cummings-hating biatch. Lo _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 15:11:47 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:11:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: <455.98d55c0.32c57f03@aol.com> Thank you Lo. I do feel lucky that so many of you have offered me feedback. I do appreciate that. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 15:28:22 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:28:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 8:51:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: I don't much care whether the Rave is real or not. Bob, since you have been in this loop for so many years, I suspect that people come in here under false screen names to display their work, opinions or drama in a hidden fashion. This tends to happen on the Internet. I am too much of an loner, to play with peoples minds like that. i~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Dec 28 15:29:54 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:29:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings haters, again References: <20061228195855.46292.qmail@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012a01c72abe$ef544a60$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> I think we all began by encouraging her. All of the early notes were encouragement. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Dickow" To: Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:58 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings haters, again > Oops, being behind in my reading and having just read > Jason's post on "dilettantism", I should add I'd take > issue to that too. And other things. But, passons -- I > just think we should encourage Raven rather than > discourage her, and I'd agree with Bob that this is a > really interesting thread. Hope to follow up, happy > new year to all -- > Alex > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Dec 28 15:30:27 2006 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:30:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. (Prooofreadversion . . . sorry.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c72abf$08db5320$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Boy, I would never argue (that the academy can be destructive). Williams wrote continually of the dangers of poetry being co-opted by universities. And of course there is a ton of poor writing coming from there today. The "MacPoem," "recreative writing," "period style," "mandarin poetry," the "slacker stories," (based on quirky takes of a disillusioned, ambitionless, lost soul), little poems with "earned" epiphanies, etc. Perhaps two reasons for this are the ones I listed (workshop as "sh*t-detector, and trying to "raise" a given text to publishable quality . . .), but I think it's different than this and has to do with a number of under-considered assumptions that have become so dominant that few (especially those in the universities) disagree: the academy's belief that learning is cumulative (whereas one can learn by forgetting as well), that one must be able to articulate the reasons for a given phrasing or wording (etc.), that one is serious if he or she believes in a final text where every item is in place and no other will do (see Dickinson's manuscript with alternative lines compared to Yeats . . . is this due to poets having an office in the same department as a textual bibliographer? In the "wild," maybe only 20% of the poets would think this way), that writing advances one's professional career, that "networking" is central and will not distract a writer from the job at hand, that you must "write what you know" (never to discover what you don't . . . by the way, how many academic poets who write "what they know" have committee meetings, pig-headed colleagues, administrative idiocy, and so forth in their work? . . . Or even television! . . . What they "know," the period style seems to dictate, includes a very narrow range of "topics" or "disallows" many others) etc. Even the signing of books is an almost undisputed activity (taking a book from text to commodity or artifact . . . at least slightly . . . would you write in a signed book the same way you might in an unsigned text?). The academy has created a mindset. But I don't think it such a mindset is necessary. One might even interrogate it in workshops. I love the advice given to Raven, that one should read extensively. And that's where I usually begin with someone: "Who are you reading?" "What really grabs you?" "Berryman?" "Your work somewhat reminds me of (or "sounds like") X. Have you read him or her?" (Anyone from Bukowski to Clark Coolidge to Christian Bok to Carolyn Bergwall to Lisa Roberston to Williams, Loy, Neidecker, Pound, Schwerner, Olson, Creeley, Duncan, Levertov, Frost, Stevens, Jeffers . . . etc. I've nothing against suggesting poets who I do not feel "akin" to, but will often mention to the young writer why they seem "flat" for me.) Anyway. I did not mean to go on so long. But I wanted to agree and show that there are some people in the academy who have thought about this and agree with you. And I wanted to mention that I thought writing _can_ occur in universities. Bumpersticker du jour: "First thought . . . already too late." (For radical intuitionalists.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jfq at myuw.net Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 1:44 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. (Prooofreadversion . . . sorry.) I've often felt that there is a strong homogenizing effect to advanced writing workshops. It's gotten to the point, particularly with short stories, where I feel like the short stories written by writers who've done a lot of formal writing workshops are a genre in and of themself. I've taken to calling it "workshop fiction" because while generally it would fall under the "literary fiction" umbrella, I think it makes sense to make a separate distinction for this particular kind of short story. The anthology Best New Voices 2006 is packed with examples. with poetry, i think the effect is less pronounced, particularly on the aesthetic fringes i tend to be more up to date on. still, i often wonder if the homogeneity of the sort of work you see in journals like Agni and the paris review these days isn't maybe due to the same effect. On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Skip Fox wrote: > Stephen Petroff, a young painter and poet back when I was a young writer, > wrote me once to the effect that it was not much use pointing out problems > in each other's work ("use" in terms of our poetic development . . . we > weren't worrying about publishing) and continued with something to the > effect that those who viably continue will discover their own errors. > > > > I know most creative writing workshops are predicated on the notion of > finding and pointing out the shortcomings of other writers' work. They are > also predicated on the notion of getting a text up to publishable quality. I > disagree with both notions, the first in part due to what my friend said > almost 40 years ago, and I run workshops focused on the writer, not the > work, and with the bare minimum of negative comments. (Not knowing really > what to do, I "bumble" around quite a bit, but the students have claimed to > have become better writers.) > > > > I'm not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other approach, but > I'm interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Skip Fox > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:59 PM > To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views' > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. > > > > Stephen Petroff, a young painter and poet back when I was a young writer > wrote me once to the effect that it was not of much use pointing out > problems in each other's work ("use" in terms of our poetic development, we > weren't worrying about publishing), and continued with something to the > effect that those who viably continues will discover their own errors. > > > > I know most creative writing workshops are predicated on the notion of find > and exposing the shortcomings of other writers' work. They are also > predicated on the notion of getting a text to publishable quality. I > disagree with both notions, the first in part due to what my friend said > almost 40 years ago, and run workshops focused on the writer, not the work, > and with the bare minimum of negative comments. (Not knowing really what to > do, I bumble around quite a bit, but the students have claimed to have > become better.) > > > > I'm not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other aproached, but > I'm interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Rebuketheworld at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 9:28 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > > > Chris, just for clarity when I wrote this- "There are some truths that do > not require fine wine--- " I meant that in terms of acknowledging that I > feel I have an inital style. I didn't want to offend you because your the > expert as well as the others here. ~Raven > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Dec 28 15:36:28 2006 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:36:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001e01c72abf$dfb771d0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Never a problem with me. (I.e., your disagreement.) I workshops we discuss a poem at length, noting its moves, techniques, tones, etc. I often see young writers surprised as they listen, especially when they tried to achieve something different, or partially the same. Maybe the issue is their learning vs. our (the class's) teaching? Anyway, I wonted to hear what people thought. I don't have an position to defend. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of LauraHeidy at aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:01 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In a message dated 12/28/2006 1:58:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, skip at louisiana.edu writes: I'm not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other aproached, but I'm interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. How does one's writing ever get better if no one ever tells them it's not yet good enough or why? I tend to wiggle when someone tells me something I've written is good....but I tend to work more when they tell me it is not - especially if they are kind enough to point out why it isn't. Personally speaking, it's easy to get too close to something being worked on and the mistakes or the poor choices I've made don't always reach up and slap me in the face like they will to someone without a time/effort-stake in the poem. While I agree that praise is a wonderful thing to get, I must also add that sometimes criticism is a wonderful thing to get as well. I loved it when I thought my kids were being perfect angels at school, I hated hearing different, but had I never actually heard different they may never have ended up being well behaved in the end. If I remain unaware of a problem, be it a child behavioral problem or a poetic-type problem, I would never have the opportunity to fix it or to learn from it. Perhaps it works if you only praise the good stuff and ignore the not-so-good stuff, but I think that's taking a chance that people will not understand what is not being said. I don't think people reach for things they think they have already attained. But, then again, that's just me and my opinion, and while I really do try not to be a "flamer" I do get opinionated sometimes and mouthy about those opinions. I really am sorry if it got misunderstood or came across as a nasty old cummings-hating biatch. Lo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suelin7184 at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 15:47:07 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:47:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <000f01c72ac1$5782c0b0$0201a8c0@LindaSue> Dear Raven, The misuses I am referring to are: 1. Use of "into" instead of "in"--The "winds" are already in the forests; therefore, the correct use would be "in" not "into." If you had the winds entering the forest, you would use "into." For example, "Into the deep forests, the winds brought their ferocity." 2. The word "winds" is plural and therefore requires a plural verb and pronoun: The baritone winds have had their time." It is as I suspected; you did not recognize the grammatical errors in this one sentence. So there is no way you can defend them by saying you "misuse language on purpose." Someone asked if English is not your first language. That is a legitimate question, and if it is not, that means you'll have work a little harder at acquiring proficiency, if you intend to become any kind of writer in the language. Keep at it. You'll become as proficient as you want to. I think you are mature enough the realize we're trying to help. Best, Linda Sue _______________________________ Blessings, Linda Sue Grimes Stone Gulch Classic Poetry Poetry at Suite101.com Poetry at BellaOnline.com History at BellaOnline.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In a message dated 12/28/2006 5:36:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, suelin7184 at gmail.com writes: Dear Raven, Please explain the purpose for your misuse of language in the following line: Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. Thanks, Linda Sue Linda, baritone winds "has had" "its" time. I put "its" in there to give the wind ownership. If I left "it" out~ Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had time wouldnt be enough. I wanted time to be more than an hour. The baritone winds, the depth of what moves this woman to her despair or journey, I felt it was essential that the wind have accountability. If I wrote~ Into the deep forests, the baritone winds had time. This is fine but "has had" shows timeless. Our journeys have a different tense. Past, present, future..etc.,After all, the lady is the drawing is a ghost. I did write this as if she could be in a dream too. ~Raven ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 15:49:47 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:49:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 12:01:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: How does one's writing ever get better if no one ever tells them it's not yet good enough or why? Lo, I honestly believe in criticism. My only fear is ones "creative draw" intermingling with criticism. For instance, I enjoy so many types of music genres. When I meet people who don't like classical or rock music and then they go on to criticize it, this doesn't wash with me. If you feel inspired by pop music than you have a valid position to take in how you judge the songs. I think the best critic a writer can hope for is one that can appreciate your style of writing or at least appreciate the attempt. In other words, if the poem is country music then the critic either enjoys country, has enjoyed some country songs or doesn't enjoy country music but can judge fairly within that disposition. I feel I have had good criticism here. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Dec 28 15:50:27 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 21:50:27 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. References: <8C8F8D3722D1403-1368-960D@webmail-db05.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <006d01c72ac1$ce733560$89a83252@ANNY> I think it is very difficult. Difficult in both cases, as a teacher or as a student. Since there are no parameters, what is good and what is bad? Probably, please notice my reticence in being more specific, any kind of criticism can work somehow, I am referring to the students' observations, but the teacher should draw a final line. It is easy to imagine the variety of reactions, s/he hates me, s/he is too oldish, too avant-garde, too..., too... but you have to give substance to what was written by offering your opinion. That is fundamentally why there are the students and there is one teacher. Will your criticism be personal? Hopefully so, that is another why those are _your_ students and not someone else's. The teacher should also be able to deal with the leader of the group, in one way or the other. I believe in the old school, even if I avoid meter. From: faustina1 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:11 PM I haven't posted here in eons and yet this discussion is pulling me in, largely because I have been conducting class workshops for maybe 40 years and am still not convinced of their value. I try to get people to find something positive about each poem and to make constructive suggestions; they need to do both. But it often turns out to be the case that there's a strong voice in the class--often a somewhat charismatic person--who tends to lead the poetics of the class down his alley. I really want each to develop in his or her particular direction, but the class leader's principles tend to infiltrate everyone's poems. And the Hallmarkers are completely impervious; they simply do not hear the suggestions. I would like to think of or discover some completely new way of workshopping. Janet From: LauraHeidy at aol.com Sent: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 2:01 PM In a message dated 12/28/2006 1:58:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, skip at louisiana.edu writes: I?m not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other aproached, but I?m interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. How does one's writing ever get better if no one ever tells them it's not yet good enough or why? I tend to wiggle when someone tells me something I've written is good....but I tend to work more when they tell me it is not - especially if they are kind enough to point out why it isn't. Personally speaking, it's easy to get too close to something being worked on and the mistakes or the poor choices I've made don't always reach up and slap me in the face like they will to someone without a time/effort-stake in the poem. While I agree that praise is a wonderful thing to get, I must also add that sometimes criticism is a wonderful thing to get as well. I loved it when I thought my kids were being perfect angels at school, I hated hearing different, but had I never actually heard different they may never have ended up being well behaved in the end. If I remain unaware of a problem, be it a child behavioral problem or a poetic-type problem, I would never have the opportunity to fix it or to learn from it. Perhaps it works if you only praise the good stuff and ignore the not-so-good stuff, but I think that's taking a chance that people will not understand what is not being said. I don't think people reach for things they think they have already attained. But, then again, that's just me and my opinion, and while I really do try not to be a "flamer" I do get opinionated sometimes and mouthy about those opinions. I really am sorry if it got misunderstood or came across as a nasty old cummings-hating biatch. Lo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 15:53:46 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:53:46 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Linda Sue, its the sound....Into the deep forest..."Into"....Doesnt that sound like a journey in the works? Rather than just "in".... What I think is throwing me off is I go the "meaning with sound" or rhythm and not the meaning from the grammar...I obviously know what into and in means. I learned that in fifth grade. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Dec 28 15:55:39 2006 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:55:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In-Reply-To: <8C8F8D3722D1403-1368-960D@webmail-db05.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c72ac2$8e034730$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> You've been teaching for longer than I've been writing, so you have experience far beyond mine. "And the Hallmarkers are completely impervious," you write. Yes, of course. And will they be writing after the age of 40? (Ted Berrigan said it was easy to be a poet before 40.) Myself, I don't care. Maya Angelou was named the Hallmark poet a few years back and I announced this in class, noting that "it's official at last." (I don't want to get in an argument about her . . . point is, many will do it for relaxation, self-publish a book in their 30s and find an interesting engagement for them . . . I think it's no worse than learning all of a soap opera's plots or the batting averages of a sports team; the ones who are "successful" in the world's terms writing sentimental work . . . know Rod McKuen (sp?)? . . . will fade away) In some cultures, many dabble to their own delight. Others traffic in endless night. The good ones _will_ learn. They might learn to listen first. But intelligence will grab them, and experience (writing experience) will make them think. I've not really had the problem of charismatic figures, but I know others have. Maybe after more teaching I'll get some of these. But I think my ability to read their work (as a writer, not a scholar or critic) leads them to want to learn (if they're serious) and not parade as a future laureate. If they begin, I tell them to "sick (their) biographers on me." Or something like that. (With humor, you can do a lot and they'll not take offense. Especially if you mean well.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of faustina1 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:11 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. I haven't posted here in eons and yet this discussion is pulling me in, largely because I have been conducting class workshops for maybe 40 years and am still not convinced of their value. I try to get people to find something positive about each poem and to make constructive suggestions; they need to do both. But it often turns out to be the case that there's a strong voice in the class--often a somewhat charismatic person--who tends to lead the poetics of the class down his alley. I really want each to develop in his or her particular direction, but the class leader's principles tend to infiltrate everyone's poems. And the Hallmarkers are completely impervious; they simply do not hear the suggestions. I would like to think of or discover some completely new way of workshopping. Janet -----Original Message----- From: LauraHeidy at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In a message dated 12/28/2006 1:58:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, skip at louisiana.edu writes: I'm not proposing this model, such as it is, in lieu of other aproached, but I'm interested in what others have to say, if anything, on this issue. How does one's writing ever get better if no one ever tells them it's not yet good enough or why? I tend to wiggle when someone tells me something I've written is good....but I tend to work more when they tell me it is not - especially if they are kind enough to point out why it isn't. Personally speaking, it's easy to get too close to something being worked on and the mistakes or the poor choices I've made don't always reach up and slap me in the face like they will to someone without a time/effort-stake in the poem. While I agree that praise is a wonderful thing to get, I must also add that sometimes criticism is a wonderful thing to get as well. I loved it when I thought my kids were being perfect angels at school, I hated hearing different, but had I never actually heard different they may never have ended up being well behaved in the end. If I remain unaware of a problem, be it a child behavioral problem or a poetic-type problem, I would never have the opportunity to fix it or to learn from it. Perhaps it works if you only praise the good stuff and ignore the not-so-good stuff, but I think that's taking a chance that people will not understand what is not being said. I don't think people reach for things they think they have already attained. But, then again, that's just me and my opinion, and while I really do try not to be a "flamer" I do get opinionated sometimes and mouthy about those opinions. I really am sorry if it got misunderstood or came across as a nasty old cummings-hating biatch. Lo _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _____ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 15:55:41 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:55:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: typo.lol...resent and more Linda Sue, its the sound....Into the deep forest..."Into"....Doesnt that sound like a journey in the works? Rather than just "in".... What I think is throwing me off is I go by the "meaning with sound" or rhythm and not the meaning from the grammar...I obviously know what into and in means. I learned that in fifth grade. Thanks Linda. I saved your response. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From screwzbaran at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 15:59:05 2006 From: screwzbaran at gmail.com (Suzanne Baran) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:59:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0612281259p59aea802x918e9811f42aadf8@mail.gmail.com> Raven! Nice! I thought she was condescending! On 12/28/06, Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > Linda Sue, its the sound....*Into *the deep forest..."Into"....Doesnt > that sound like a journey in the works? Rather than just "in".... > > > What I think is throwing me off is I go the "meaning with sound" or rhythm > and not the meaning from the grammar...I obviously know what into and in > means. I learned that in fifth grade. ~Raven > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "The reader, the thinker, the flaneur, are types of illuminati just as much as the opium eater, the dreamer, the ecstatic. ? Not to mention that most terrible drug - ourselves - which we take in solitude." - Walter Benjamin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suelin7184 at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 16:08:29 2006 From: suelin7184 at gmail.com (Linda Sue Grimes) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:08:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <006701c72ac4$53d67a30$0201a8c0@LindaSue> But in the sentence in question, the winds are not making a journey. About the winds, you are merely saying that they have had their time in the deep forests. Best, Linda Sue _______________________________ Blessings, Linda Sue Grimes Stone Gulch Classic Poetry Poetry at Suite101.com Poetry at BellaOnline.com History at BellaOnline.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Linda Sue, its the sound....Into the deep forest..."Into"....Doesnt that sound like a journey in the works? Rather than just "in".... What I think is throwing me off is I go the "meaning with sound" or rhythm and not the meaning from the grammar...I obviously know what into and in means. I learned that in fifth grade. ~Raven ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Dec 28 16:17:40 2006 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:17:40 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c72ac5$a162f750$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> I think you've been given very good criticism. Maybe it's just my temperament not to do so. But I also think the value of such criticsm should be considered. Especially for young poets. I don't feel they need to have alarm bells ringing in the background as they write, at least not initially (first drafts). I too am a traditionalist. But creative writing in the university is a very short tradition (beginning in the 30s? Is that right?). Whereas the tradition I think most of us would find ourselves members of (even many of us who think ourselves as innovative) goes back several thousand years. One can teach quite a bit of traditional material by assigning a choice of exercises and by reading tons of many kinds of poetry in class). Another underconsidered assumption is that one must "know how to write a sonnet to break it" (or how is it said?). I've written hundreds of poems in multiple forms, but I can't honestly say that doing so has made a discernable difference (to the good) in my work. I think many people say that primarily to justify their past engagements. There are probably many other reasons as well, including good ones. At the least it's worth consideration. (I find it ironic that poets, at least the way I define them, interrogate everything, and yet they have multiple areas where questioning is not even considered. . . . Like blurbs on books . . . Not Eileen Tabios's poetry book on punctuation as a bright exception . . . she asks readers to write their own blurbs and gives them space to do so.) I like this discussion but need to go home and I can't post to New Poetics or Buffalo's list from home (and I'm always wondering why not). That doesn't mean I won't be reading the posts (if, of course, there are any more in this thread). I send this a thousand miles, thinking (paraphrased from Cathay) . . . -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Rebuketheworld at aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:50 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In a message dated 12/28/2006 12:01:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: How does one's writing ever get better if no one ever tells them it's not yet good enough or why? Lo, I honestly believe in criticism. My only fear is ones "creative draw" intermingling with criticism. For instance, I enjoy so many types of music genres. When I meet people who don't like classical or rock music and then they go on to criticize it, this doesn't wash with me. If you feel inspired by pop music than you have a valid position to take in how you judge the songs. I think the best critic a writer can hope for is one that can appreciate your style of writing or at least appreciate the attempt. In other words, if the poem is country music then the critic either enjoys country, has enjoyed some country songs or doesn't enjoy country music but can judge fairly within that disposition. I feel I have had good criticism here. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Thu Dec 28 16:24:27 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:24:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: you say baritone winds, which is plural, and then its, which is singular. the pronoun and the noun it's standing in for don't agree as to number. to get them to agree you would either say baritone wind, or their. On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/28/2006 11:45:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, > jfq at myuw.net writes: > > i think the question was more why you have the pronoun disagreeing as to > number with the noun. > > > > > > > I have no idea what you meant here. Could you elaborate for me? ~Raven > From chris.lott at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 16:24:44 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:24:44 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612281324s494047e2l618b5c009d6858a8@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/06, Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > We are moved > differently. For instance, I wouldn't be emotionally moved by one word > poems. In that case we are the same-- I am not moved by one word poems either (though I admit that certain words can trigger an emotional response based on past associations... but that is not the work, I argue, of poetry)... c From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 16:33:32 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:33:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 1:24:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, jfq at myuw.net writes: you say baritone winds, which is plural, and then its, which is singular. the pronoun and the noun it's standing in for don't agree as to number. to get them to agree you would either say baritone wind, or their. I understand. "Winds" must be plural. Whats move her there, the symbolism behind WIND is complex and more than one. If I remove "its" and use "their". Into the deep forests, the baritone tone winds had their time. I dont get the possesion of time when I remove "its" but maybe thats not needed. Thats much better but I still like "into" to reflect a feeling of a journey from within the whole sentence structure. The question is, is this misuse necessary? I dont know. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Dec 28 16:37:28 2006 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:37:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004101c72ac8$65591070$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Which is all true (Raven's singular pronoun not agreeing with a plural antecedent). But I was reading Paul Naylor's lovely _Arranging Nature_ (Chax Press) this morning and he shifts the grammatical often mid sentence, employing "poor" grammar. (And he knows what he's doing.) Sometimes this indicates a radical shift in thinking (as though Raven went to the common noun concept of "wind" midway, using a singular pronoun to represent it, to emphasize its totality or mass, and thus the maximizing the scale of its exhaustion), sometimes this intelligently apposes the beginning of a sentence phrase, or undercuts it, or gives the sense of a mental shorthand, or shows a naturalness in language (arranging nature, after all, but we're told language is culture, not nature . . . I think Naylor undercuts the simplistic duality). I don't necessarily believe one need to know, in an articulate sense, why one "violated" the rules. Now I'll shut up. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jfq at myuw.net Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:24 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? you say baritone winds, which is plural, and then its, which is singular. the pronoun and the noun it's standing in for don't agree as to number. to get them to agree you would either say baritone wind, or their. On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/28/2006 11:45:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, > jfq at myuw.net writes: > > i think the question was more why you have the pronoun disagreeing as to > number with the noun. > > > > > > > I have no idea what you meant here. Could you elaborate for me? ~Raven > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 16:39:53 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:39:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: <31a.2852274f.32c593a9@aol.com> In a message dated 12/28/2006 1:09:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, suelin7184 at gmail.com writes: But in the sentence in question, the winds are not making a journey. About the winds, you are merely saying that they have had their time in the deep forests. Best, Linda Sue I see. The winds are partly responsible for who she is(symbolism) and yet time is readied and has acknowledged its need to end. hmm... ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 16:49:00 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:49:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Linda, delete what I wrote.......I originally thought of wind owning time and not time owning itself. I see. The winds are partly responsible for who she is(symbolism) and yet time is readied and has acknowledged its need to end. hmm... ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Dec 28 17:04:46 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 17:04:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <000001c72abf$08db5320$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <003501c72acc$3d0214b0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Isn't one advantage of workshops, or anything in that line, simply that they give a poet a chance to find out how his work is coming across to others, which is something I think he ought to care about? --Bob G. From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 17:11:07 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 17:11:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 2:04:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: how his work is coming across to other I agree. This is good. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Dec 28 17:32:23 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 17:32:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <2d5ffa0b0612281259p59aea802x918e9811f42aadf8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <023b01c72ad0$0ba7d0e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> >>>I go the "meaning with sound" or rhythm and not the meaning from the grammar...I obviously know what into and in means. I learned that in fifth grade. ~Raven It's not enough. It's enough if you're writing for yourself, not enough if you're writing to be read, to communicate, in spite of Humpty Dumpty's famous solution. But it's a good start. Meaning with sound is important, but it can't replace meaning with grammar -- or against grammar. You need to be in control. Humpty Dumpty did it by force of will, but the rest of us have to do it with knowledge and skill. If you use "into" for "in," you're telling the reader, among other things, "Stop and figure this out." You're going against the forward momentum you wanted to establish with your rhythm, your meaning with sound. Nothing wrong with that either, if you want it, but if you don't want it, then you need to do some more work on the line. And if you're using "into" for "in," you're sending a message that you want the reader to juggle both meanings, and think about the ways one can be "in" and "into" at the same time. And if that isn't what you want, you can't shut your eyes and pretend it's not going to happen. ----- Original Message ----- From: Suzanne Baran To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Raven! Nice! I thought she was condescending! On 12/28/06, Rebuketheworld at aol.com < Rebuketheworld at aol.com> wrote: Linda Sue, its the sound....Into the deep forest..."Into"....Doesnt that sound like a journey in the works? Rather than just "in".... What I think is throwing me off is I go the "meaning with sound" or rhythm and not the meaning from the grammar...I obviously know what into and in means. I learned that in fifth grade. ~Raven _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "The reader, the thinker, the flaneur, are types of illuminati just as much as the opium eater, the dreamer, the ecstatic. ? Not to mention that most terrible drug - ourselves - which we take in solitude." - Walter Benjamin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Dec 28 17:39:22 2006 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:39:22 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: <4F35F857-F617-452D-BAC6-02544EB4287C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2C9AFB0E-8C41-4390-9A84-8026C07B0489@earthlink.net> Hi Joe--- Nah, not above it; maybe not even below- ---just trying to survive in a difficult time right now; moving into a very small grungy place, throwing boxes of things away. Anybody want a kitchen table, or a futon? Not to sound like Rimbaud cripple at 35, or like Jack Spicer puking out 'my vocabulary did this to me' and certainly I didn't mean to criticize anybody else for whom the pursuit of publication of poems remains paramount... I just need to address some basic needs I've neglected in the living breathing eating drinking reading submitting of poetry, etc and it doesn't mean I'm not writing anymore, just feeling burnt by the game (your term)... Maybe I'll be able to devote such energy to that again someday.... in the meantime, it's really okay if my writing gets called 'mere journal entries' or something I'm just too spent to argue this further right now; but I wish you well Joseph....please forgive... C On Dec 27, 2006, at 7:07 PM, Joseph Duemer wrote: > You say you "used to" submit your work to the gatekeepers, the > implication being that you're above all that now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Thu Dec 28 18:08:23 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:08:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: their is possessive. it's the third person plural possessive pronoun. the only difference between its and their is that its is singular and their is plural. On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/28/2006 1:24:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, jfq at myuw.net > writes: > > you say baritone winds, which is plural, and then its, which is singular. > the pronoun and the noun it's standing in for don't agree as to number. to get > them to agree you would either say baritone wind, or their. > > > > I understand. "Winds" must be plural. Whats move her there, the symbolism > behind WIND is complex and more than one. If I remove "its" and use "their". > > Into the deep forests, the baritone tone winds had their time. > > I dont get the possesion of time when I remove "its" but maybe thats not > needed. > > Thats much better but I still like "into" to reflect a feeling of a journey > from within the whole sentence structure. The question is, is this misuse > necessary? I dont know. ~Raven > > > From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 18:11:25 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:11:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: <54c.c359fee.32c5a91d@aol.com> In a message dated 12/28/2006 3:08:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, jfq at myuw.net writes: their is possessive. it's the third person plural possessive pronoun Yes, there is and a better way to say it. Thanks for the correction. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfq at myuw.net Thu Dec 28 18:15:27 2006 From: jfq at myuw.net (jfq at myuw.net) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:15:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <004101c72ac8$65591070$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: oh i agree, disagreement as to number is an easy one to break and there are lots of reasons for doing so, just like tense disagreement. i do it a lot in my writing. but it's a very strong effect and so i think it's one of those things. the syntactic version of an aaaa rhyme scheme or the rhythmic pattern of limericks. or if you like, it's the dirty nuke of poetic devices: a thing with certain practical uses, but one that you should think long and hard about before deploying. On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Skip Fox wrote: > Which is all true (Raven's singular pronoun not agreeing with a plural > antecedent). But I was reading Paul Naylor's lovely _Arranging Nature_ (Chax > Press) this morning and he shifts the grammatical often mid sentence, > employing "poor" grammar. (And he knows what he's doing.) Sometimes this > indicates a radical shift in thinking (as though Raven went to the common > noun concept of "wind" midway, using a singular pronoun to represent it, to > emphasize its totality or mass, and thus the maximizing the scale of its > exhaustion), sometimes this intelligently apposes the beginning of a > sentence phrase, or undercuts it, or gives the sense of a mental shorthand, > or shows a naturalness in language (arranging nature, after all, but we're > told language is culture, not nature . . . I think Naylor undercuts the > simplistic duality). > > I don't necessarily believe one need to know, in an articulate sense, why > one "violated" the rules. > > Now I'll shut up. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jfq at myuw.net > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:24 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > > you say baritone winds, which is plural, and then its, which is singular. > the pronoun and the noun it's standing in for don't agree as to number. to > get them to agree you would either say baritone wind, or their. > On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > >> >> In a message dated 12/28/2006 11:45:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, >> jfq at myuw.net writes: >> >> i think the question was more why you have the pronoun disagreeing as to >> number with the noun. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have no idea what you meant here. Could you elaborate for me? ~Raven >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bmarcacci at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 11:41:05 2006 From: bmarcacci at gmail.com (Bob Marcacci) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 00:41:05 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: somma the livliest back-n-fro in a whoa a while... maybe ever at least since i've been peeking in and only lately back at it... happy holidays and whatall all... curious about whether you are a native English speaker, Raven... is this question in poor taste? and, if you're going to fid wid da means and what it means you gotsta make it sure them they who understand you you know who know what it do... the words be clearly clear... all they do is that they do... and and if you don't understand something, it will continue to find you and ghost you and i'll toast to that still fighting my own happy new year... -- Bob Marcacci When was the last time you visited: http://marcacci.blogspot.com/ > From: > Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:08:05 EST > To: > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > Laura, I use modifiers, metaphors, loads and loads of imagery and I misuse > language on purpose. That's my starting point for style but I also write about > what I feel which is a somewhat dark and depth. I write about what plaques > man. ~Raven > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 18:41:51 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:41:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: <493.17d12b7.32c5b03f@aol.com> Yes, I was born in America and I only speak English. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Dec 28 18:46:18 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 00:46:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. References: <001e01c72abf$dfb771d0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <011401c72ada$5f881760$89a83252@ANNY> I casually opened The Triggering Town by Richard Hugo round page 60 (book I received today), title of the chapter: In Defense of Creative Writing Classes. ... I think Yeats was right when he observed that what comes easy for the bad poet comes with great difficulty for the good. We accept those who, in our opinion, seem to be the best writers. But we may be accepting those who have absorbed technique rapidly because no obsessions normal to the good writer were there to get in the way. In forty years a celebrated poet may turn out to be someone who was rejected by graduate writing programs. ... ... If we are doing our job, creative-writing teachers are performing a necessary negative function. And if we are good teachers, we should be teaching the writer ways of doing that for himself all his writing life. We teach how not to write and we teach writers to teach themselves how not to write. When we teach how to write, the student had best be on guard. What about a student who is not good? Who will never write much? It is possible for a good teacher to get from that student one poem or one story that far exceeds whatever hopes the student had. It may be of no importance to the world of high culture, but it may be very important to the student. It is a small thing, but it is also small and wrong to forget or ignore lives that can use a single microscopic moment of personal triumph. ... ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 18:58:21 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:58:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 3:47:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: What about a student who is not good? Who will never write much? It is possible for a good teacher to get from that student one poem or one story that far exceeds whatever hopes the student had. I think if I was a crystal ball my answer would be yes. I am not sure in good conscious that anyone should ever terminate another persons passion by his or her opinion. I am not sure anyone has that right. If we consider history and the many rejected poets, artists or writers who ended up being appreciated later on, it was passion that stirred them and not acceptance. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 19:17:28 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:17:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. Message-ID: Although, roses are red, violets are blue might be a maybe,lol. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmarcacci at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 20:06:40 2006 From: bmarcacci at gmail.com (Bob Marcacci) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 09:06:40 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <003501c72acc$3d0214b0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Not only a fine name, a nice comment, Bob... I've been thinking about my own workshop experience back when and have recently come to regard them as useful experiences... not entirely pleasureable, but useful... if you don't think they're useful, perhaps you're being dishonest about what you yourself are contributing... i didn't come away with so many friendships, but i learned to trust my own suspicions about my work (i thought something was wrong in a certain place and everyone else noticed it, too), if the reader SEES something then there's no changing that (my own control weakness), and a strong teacher MUST lead the class... I don't think the workshop forces articulation... certainly, there's fashion in the language people use to talk about poems... if you don't like the way i talk, then you will miss what i say... *shrugs* if many people are saying the same thing, there's often some truth in it... there are always people who think they know what a person should read and, in fact, don't we love to follow those threads through literature? this leads to this leads to this leads to... who are you reading/your work reminds me of (insert your favorite poets here) sounds like workshop speak... *shrugs* reading cereal boxes or product labels has as good effect as anything, i suspect... *coughs* ARGH! so much to say... this message is getting too long, but i'm happy to be piqued or peaked as you see fit... -- Bob Marcacci Kindness is loving people more than they deserve. - Joseph Joubert > From: Bob Grumman > Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 17:04:46 -0500 > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > Isn't one advantage of workshops, or anything in that line, simply that they > give a poet a chance to find out how his work is coming across to others, > which is something I think he ought to care about? > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From duemer at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 20:31:35 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:31:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In-Reply-To: <003201c72ac5$a162f750$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> References: <003201c72ac5$a162f750$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: "I have been conducting class workshops for maybe 40 years and am still not convinced of their value." Why do you continue to do it, then? That's a serious question, not a snarky one. I've been teaching "creative writing" -- mostly to beginners -- for 25 years & god knows that many days I feel the task it utterly hopeless, but I also think that at least some of the students derive a benefit from the experience. And the benefit is not that they become poets. In that quarter century of teaching, as far as I know, only a handful of my students have continued to write seriously. A few have gone on to MFAs, but not many. But my most attentive students have taken away from my classes a heightened respect for the power of language, both as language & as a medium of communication. As for pedagogical technique, I subscribe to the Sloppy Wet Kiss Before Sticking the Knife in Method (SWKBSKM). One can always find something to praise in a piece of writing -- a turn of phrase, a line break, an image, etc. And the praise has to be genuine & constructive. (There is nothing more alienating than pro forma praise.) But after the praise, I go for whatever the most obvious problem with the poem might be. It's important to make sure students understand that one's criticism of a text does not equal criticism of the person who wrote the text. It has to be impersonal, but passionate. I would also assert that there are actual, concrete standards for poetry that transcend taste & opinion. It's just that those standards -- accuracy, clarity, intelligence, honesty, tact, & care for the difficulties of putting the world into language -- are not the sole concern of poetry. Poetry & its panoply of techniques -- along with the techniques of language in general -- are just a means for attaining those qualities. There are many ways to care about language, but the starting point for poetry is caring about language. People who cannot be bothered to make their verbs agree or to get the possessive case right, or who defend other forms of carelessness in the name of "creativity" simply cannot be poets. They may be fine people, but they are not poets. They are not poets in the same way that I am not a mathematician: I haven't got the techniques of mathematics. I would not to presume to post my "mathematical" speculations on an email list of mathematicians, for instance. So, I think a poet working in the Anglo-American tradition of the last thousand years or so ought to know about the ballad stanza & the sonnet & accentual-syllabic meter & all that stuff. Not that one need use these forms directly. I am not, in fact, a "traditionalist." My own work would be best described as modernist. Form for the sake of form, as with the so-called & now irrelevant New Formalists, is idiotic. Dana Gioia is the George Bush of American poetry. But to write without any knowledge of that tradition seems to me to write in a vacuum. Writing poems is a social act, it involves other people living & dead. Otherwise it's just spew. On 12/28/06, Skip Fox wrote: > > I think you've been given very good criticism. Maybe it's just my > temperament not to do so. But I also think the value of such criticsm should > be considered. Especially for young poets. I don't feel they need to have > alarm bells ringing in the background as they write, at least not initially > (first drafts). > > > > I too am a traditionalist. But creative writing in the university is a > very short tradition (beginning in the 30s? Is that right?). Whereas the > tradition I think most of us would find ourselves members of (even many of > us who think ourselves as innovative) goes back several thousand years. One > can teach quite a bit of traditional material by assigning a choice of > exercises and by reading tons of many kinds of poetry in class). > > > > Another underconsidered assumption is that one must "know how to write a > sonnet to break it" (or how is it said?). I've written hundreds of poems in > multiple forms, but I can't honestly say that doing so has made a > discernable difference (to the good) in my work. I think many people say > that primarily to justify theirpast engagements. There are probably many > other reasons as well, including good ones. At the least it's worth > consideration. (I find it ironic that poets, at least the way I define them, > interrogate everything, and yet they have multiple areas where questioning > is not even considered. . . . Like blurbs on books . . . Not Eileen Tabios's > poetry book on punctuation as a bright exception . . . she asks readers to > write their own blurbs and gives them space to do so.) > > > > I like this discussion but need to go home and I can't post to New Poetics > or Buffalo's list from home (and I'm always wondering why not). That doesn't > mean I won't be reading the posts (if, of course, there are any more in this > thread). I send this a thousand miles, thinking (paraphrased from Cathay) . > . . > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto: > new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of *Rebuketheworld at aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:50 PM > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. > > > > In a message dated 12/28/2006 12:01:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, > LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: > > How does one's writing ever get better if no one ever tells them it's not > yet good enough or why? > > Lo, I honestly believe in criticism. My only fear is ones "creative draw" > intermingling with criticism. For instance, I enjoy so many types of music > genres. When I meet people who don't like classical or rock music and then > they go on to criticize it, this doesn't wash with me. If you feel inspired > by pop music than you have a valid position to take in how you judge the > songs. I think the best critic a writer can hope for is one that can > appreciate your style of writing or at least appreciate the attempt. In > other words, if the poem is country music then the critic either enjoys > country, has enjoyed some country songs or doesn't enjoy country music but > can judge fairly within that disposition. I feel I have had good criticism > here. ~Raven > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 20:41:31 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:41:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings haters In-Reply-To: <2d5ffa0b0612281143v19a59db9i41652c2afabd0bd3@mail.gmail.com> References: <200612281700.kBSH058X006702@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <631930.2067.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2d5ffa0b0612281143v19a59db9i41652c2afabd0bd3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Have you people read Cummings? He is entirely grammatical. He makes interesting, intentional substitutions of one part of speech for another, but none of his work would makes sense without readers' innate understanding of grammar. To say that Cummings is ungrammatical is to misunderstand both Cummings & grammar. Cummings, buy the way, was steeped in the traditions of Anglo-American poetry & in particular the very exacting tradition of the sonnet. To read Cummings without knowing this is to completely miss what he is about. I defy anyone to post a single sentence from Cummings that is not grammatical. On 12/28/06, Suzanne Baran wrote: > > WELL SAID!!!! > > On 12/28/06, Alexander Dickow wrote: > > > > Lo, > > "In less, of course, you meant" > > I see you are an expert in perfect grammar. > > I find your remarks about Cummings sort of > > presumptuous, since I think what he did opened up many > > possibilities that have yet to be exhausted. Although > > not a rabid fan of Cummings, I find the alternative > > position -- "you should respect grammar" to be rather > > repulsive for all kinds of reasons, at least insofar > > as it becomes a "position". _Write your English good_ > > if you want, but don't discourage others from building > > their _style_ in whatever sense they wish. > > What's certainly most vexing to me -- perhaps I'm > > alone on this -- is your rather tactless remarks to > > Raven, which look like flaming to me. Others here have > > succeeded in offering criticism in a both > > uncompromising and much more kind fashion, Lo. > > Keep reading, keep writing, Raven. > > Amicalement, > > Alex > > > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > "The reader, the thinker, the flaneur, are types of illuminati just as > much as the opium eater, the dreamer, the ecstatic. ? Not to mention that > most terrible drug - ourselves - which we take in solitude." - Walter > Benjamin > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 20:53:44 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:53:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <2C9AFB0E-8C41-4390-9A84-8026C07B0489@earthlink.net> References: <4F35F857-F617-452D-BAC6-02544EB4287C@earthlink.net> <2C9AFB0E-8C41-4390-9A84-8026C07B0489@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Chris, thanks for the clarification & sorry for the personal strife. In fact, I'm just coming off a five-year period of not trying to publish. Our reasons may vary, but I suspect our insights about the process map onto each other pretty well. I think you could tell from my post that I wrote from a position of respect for your work. I still think it's an interesting argument & I hope that in some beautiful future we'll be able to wrangle it out. Best wishes, man. jd On 12/28/06, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > Hi Joe--- > Nah, not above it; maybe not even below- > ---just trying to survive in a difficult time right now; moving into a > very small grungy place, throwing boxes of things away. > Anybody want a kitchen table, or a futon? > Not to sound like Rimbaud cripple at 35, or like Jack Spicer > puking out 'my vocabulary did this to me' > and certainly I didn't mean to criticize anybody else for > whom the pursuit of publication of poems remains paramount... > I just need to address some basic needs I've neglected in the > living breathing eating drinking reading submitting of poetry, etc > and it doesn't mean I'm not writing anymore, just feeling burnt > by the game (your term)... > Maybe I'll be able to devote such energy to that again > someday.... > in the meantime, it's really okay if my writing gets > called 'mere journal entries' or something > > I'm just too spent to argue this further right now; but I wish you well > Joseph....please forgive... > > > C > > On Dec 27, 2006, at 7:07 PM, Joseph Duemer wrote: > > You say you "used to" submit your work to the gatekeepers, the > implication being that you're above all that now > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 21:03:23 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 21:03:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: <004101c72ac8$65591070$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I'd be really interested in seeing an example of your work where you intentionally break number agreement. Tense shifts are different. Of course, there are alternative grammars available to the poet writing in English: various dialects & ethnic variation, for example. But these are not "ungrammatical" -- they are perfectly grammatical & the poet writing in English can draw on them, as poets have been doing since Chaucer. To draw on such grammars, of course, assumes that one's readers will be as literate as you are. I think what many of us have been objecting to in Raven's sentences is that they are simply ungrammatical. The do not exhibit basic competence, let alone a knowledge of alternative grammars. That's a harsh judgment, I know. But there is a difference between creativity & illiteracy. On 12/28/06, jfq at myuw.net wrote: > > oh i agree, disagreement as to number is an easy one to break and there > are lots of reasons for doing so, just like tense disagreement. i do it a > lot in my writing. but it's a very strong effect and so i think it's one of > those things. the syntactic version of an aaaa rhyme scheme or the rhythmic > pattern of limericks. or if you like, it's the dirty nuke of poetic devices: > a thing with certain practical uses, but one that you should think long and > hard about before deploying. > > > > On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Skip Fox wrote: > > > Which is all true (Raven's singular pronoun not agreeing with a plural > > antecedent). But I was reading Paul Naylor's lovely _Arranging Nature_ > (Chax > > Press) this morning and he shifts the grammatical often mid sentence, > > employing "poor" grammar. (And he knows what he's doing.) Sometimes this > > indicates a radical shift in thinking (as though Raven went to the > common > > noun concept of "wind" midway, using a singular pronoun to represent it, > to > > emphasize its totality or mass, and thus the maximizing the scale of its > > exhaustion), sometimes this intelligently apposes the beginning of a > > sentence phrase, or undercuts it, or gives the sense of a mental > shorthand, > > or shows a naturalness in language (arranging nature, after all, but > we're > > told language is culture, not nature . . . I think Naylor undercuts the > > simplistic duality). > > > > I don't necessarily believe one need to know, in an articulate sense, > why > > one "violated" the rules. > > > > Now I'll shut up. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jfq at myuw.net > > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:24 PM > > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > > > > > you say baritone winds, which is plural, and then its, which is > singular. > > the pronoun and the noun it's standing in for don't agree as to number. > to > > get them to agree you would either say baritone wind, or their. > > On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > > >> > >> In a message dated 12/28/2006 11:45:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, > >> jfq at myuw.net writes: > >> > >> i think the question was more why you have the pronoun disagreeing as > to > >> number with the noun. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I have no idea what you meant here. Could you elaborate for > me? ~Raven > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From faustina1 at aol.com Thu Dec 28 21:07:21 2006 From: faustina1 at aol.com (faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 21:07:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In-Reply-To: References: <003201c72ac5$a162f750$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <8C8F90535A55EE7-E5C-C2A6@webmail-db20.sysops.aol.com> Have to disagree with you about Gioia--some of his poetry is really fine and very unBushy. Have you read his "Planting a Sequoia" or "Counting the Children?" But as for teaching workshops--I do it because it is part of my teaching assignment, and I would rather teach the non-workshop classes. I like to teach the basic course on both graduate and undergraduate level, and to challenge the students to explore new directions. I try to make my assignments provocative and open, and give both constructive criticism and praise. And I teach everything from sonnets to postmodern experimentalism. It is the peer critiquing that I have trouble getting to work. I might add that when invited to do "workshops" at other places, I never do peer critiquing, but rather use some exercise, often an ekphrastic one. But the traditional peer-critique workshop is an integral part of our program. I would like to hear from those who have had success with it. It's fun to see it treated in movies, as in Wonder Boys. "They" never have much more luck with it than I do. I have had students do wonderfully as writers, but certainly not because of my workshop! One just had her memoir published by Time Warner and movie rights optioned. I am tremendously proud of her! But I had nothing at all to do with this. Best, Janet -----Original Message----- From: duemer at gmail.com Sent: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. "I have been conducting class workshops for maybe 40 years and am still not convinced of their value." Why do you continue to do it, then? That's a serious question, not a snarky one. I've been teaching "creative writing" -- mostly to beginners -- for 25 years & god knows that many days I feel the task it utterly hopeless, but I also think that at least some of the students derive a benefit from the experience. And the benefit is not that they become poets. In that quarter century of teaching, as far as I know, only a handful of my students have continued to write seriously. A few have gone on to MFAs, but not many. But my most attentive students have taken away from my classes a heightened respect for the power of language, both as language & as a medium of communication. As for pedagogical technique, I subscribe to the Sloppy Wet Kiss Before Sticking the Knife in Method (SWKBSKM). One can always find something to praise in a piece of writing -- a turn of phrase, a line break, an image, etc. And the praise has to be genuine & constructive. (There is nothing more alienating than pro forma praise.) But after the praise, I go for whatever the most obvious problem with the poem might be. It's important to make sure students understand that one's criticism of a text does not equal criticism of the person who wrote the text. It has to be impersonal, but passionate. I would also assert that there are actual, concrete standards for poetry that transcend taste & opinion. It's just that those standards -- accuracy, clarity, intelligence, honesty, tact, & care for the difficulties of putting the world into language -- are not the sole concern of poetry. Poetry & its panoply of techniques -- along with the techniques of language in general -- are just a means for attaining those qualities. There are many ways to care about language, but the starting point for poetry is caring about language. People who cannot be bothered to make their verbs agree or to get the possessive case right, or who defend other forms of carelessness in the name of "creativity" simply cannot be poets. They may be fine people, but they are not poets. They are not poets in the same way that I am not a mathematician: I haven't got the techniques of mathematics. I would not to presume to post my "mathematical" speculations on an email list of mathematicians, for instance. So, I think a poet working in the Anglo-American tradition of the last thousand years or so ought to know about the ballad stanza & the sonnet & accentual-syllabic meter & all that stuff. Not that one need use these forms directly. I am not, in fact, a "traditionalist." My own work would be best described as modernist. Form for the sake of form, as with the so-called & now irrelevant New Formalists, is idiotic. Dana Gioia is the George Bush of American poetry. But to write without any knowledge of that tradition seems to me to write in a vacuum. Writing poems is a social act, it involves other people living & dead. Otherwise it's just spew. On 12/28/06, Skip Fox wrote: I think you've been given very good criticism. Maybe it's just my temperament not to do so. But I also think the value of such criticsm should be considered. Especially for young poets. I don't feel they need to have alarm bells ringing in the background as they write, at least not initially (first drafts). I too am a traditionalist. But creative writing in the university is a very short tradition (beginning in the 30s? Is that right?). Whereas the tradition I think most of us would find ourselves members of (even many of us who think ourselves as innovative) goes back several thousand years. One can teach quite a bit of traditional material by assigning a choice of exercises and by reading tons of many kinds of poetry in class). Another underconsidered assumption is that one must "know how to write a sonnet to break it" (or how is it said?). I've written hundreds of poems in multiple forms, but I can't honestly say that doing so has made a discernable difference (to the good) in my work. I think many people say that primarily to justify theirpast engagements. There are probably many other reasons as well, including good ones. At the least it's worth consideration. (I find it ironic that poets, at least the way I define them, interrogate everything, and yet they have multiple areas where questioning is not even considered. . . . Like blurbs on books . . . Not Eileen Tabios's poetry book on punctuation as a bright exception . . . she asks readers to write their own blurbs and gives them space to do so.) I like this discussion but need to go home and I can't post to New Poetics or Buffalo's list from home (and I'm always wondering why not). That doesn't mean I won't be reading the posts (if, of course, there are any more in this thread). I send this a thousand miles, thinking (paraphrased from Cathay) . . . -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Rebuketheworld at aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:50 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In a message dated 12/28/2006 12:01:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: How does one's writing ever get better if no one ever tells them it's not yet good enough or why? Lo, I honestly believe in criticism. My only fear is ones "creative draw" intermingling with criticism. For instance, I enjoy so many types of music genres. When I meet people who don't like classical or rock music and then they go on to criticize it, this doesn't wash with me. If you feel inspired by pop music than you have a valid position to take in how you judge the songs. I think the best critic a writer can hope for is one that can appreciate your style of writing or at least appreciate the attempt. In other words, if the poem is country music then the critic either enjoys country, has enjoyed some country songs or doesn't enjoy country music but can judge fairly within that disposition. I feel I have had good criticism here. ~Raven _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net ] _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From faustina1 at aol.com Thu Dec 28 21:39:21 2006 From: faustina1 at aol.com (faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 21:39:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In-Reply-To: <011401c72ada$5f881760$89a83252@ANNY> References: <001e01c72abf$dfb771d0$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> <011401c72ada$5f881760$89a83252@ANNY> Message-ID: <8C8F909ADD2CF9E-E7C-8F20@webmail-db06.sysops.aol.com> "What about a student who is not good? Who will never write much? It is possible for a good teacher to get from that student one poem or one story that far exceeds whatever hopes the student had. It may be of no importance to the world of high culture, but it may be very important to the student. It is a small thing, but it is also small and wrong to forget or ignore lives that can use a single microscopic moment of personal triumph. ..." Yes! I agree completely. It is incredible to see on a student's face the realization that she's written something good, maybe revised something mediocre into something good, and is saying to herself, "Did I really write that?" It is moments like that that make all the crap worthwhile. ... _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 22:02:02 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:02:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <200612282006.kBSK6V8X010086@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <704113.50424.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mole wrote, "I think we all began by encouraging her. All of the early notes were encouragement." Sure, agreed, and some criticism, too. Thanks to Jason and Lo for the kind elaboration, and to Suzanne for the enthusiasm: all this has made for lovely holiday reading. Cheers, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From screwzbaran at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 22:08:36 2006 From: screwzbaran at gmail.com (Suzanne Baran) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:08:36 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <704113.50424.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200612282006.kBSK6V8X010086@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <704113.50424.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2d5ffa0b0612281908m4893e01tf4087a67b3b41c73@mail.gmail.com> You're welcome, Alex. You stood your ground in a most admirable way. On 12/28/06, Alexander Dickow wrote: > > Mole wrote, > "I think we all began by encouraging her. All of the > early notes were > encouragement." > > Sure, agreed, and some criticism, too. Thanks to Jason > and Lo for the kind elaboration, and to Suzanne for > the enthusiasm: all this has made for lovely holiday > reading. > Cheers, > Alex > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "The reader, the thinker, the flaneur, are types of illuminati just as much as the opium eater, the dreamer, the ecstatic. ? Not to mention that most terrible drug - ourselves - which we take in solitude." - Walter Benjamin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 22:31:27 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:31:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: <200612290119.kBT1JL8X015260@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20061229033127.50280.qmail@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Joseph, Yes, I have read Cummings. Though not in any great quantity. I'm inclined to believe you're probably correct, but also that these terms grammatical/ungrammatical might not be so useful after all. How about sociolinguistic norms, ie of the white, educated middle class? Grammatical or not, I'd say Cummings successfully writes his way out of these, on occasion. Of course, I don't know what those "norms" are either, but that's an old problem, isn't it? But there's something about what I call "language legislation" that bothers me -- maybe that's because I've been thoroughly soaked/steeped in the French tradition, which happens to be terribly rife with it (see the Academie Francaise, c17th century). Amicalement, Alex Joseph wrote: Have you people read Cummings? He is entirely grammatical. He makes interesting, intentional substitutions of one part of speech for another, but none of his work would makes sense without readers' innate understanding of grammar. To say that Cummings is ungrammatical is to misunderstand both Cummings & grammar. Cummings, buy the way, was steeped in the traditions of Anglo-American poetry & in particular the very exacting tradition of the sonnet. To read Cummings without knowing this is to completely miss what he is about. I defy anyone to post a single sentence from Cummings that is not grammatical. www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 22:50:14 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:50:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 6:03:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, duemer at gmail.com writes: But there is a difference between creativity & illiteracy. I changed the sentence but I knew what I was doing. I don't think the sentence is as interesting grammatically correct but because my mold is a baby, I can agree to think differently. At first, I was fine with the change but every time I read it, the sound and meaning seems less. What that will mean to me later on years will change and I am open to anything. I naturally go by sound, rhythm and meaning prior to grammar. I wonder how many would prefer the incorrect sentence? Maybe my style will challenge the grammatical standard. I just hear it differently. ~Raven grammatically incorrect Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. vs. grammatically correct In the deep forests, the baritone winds had their time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 22:52:15 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:52:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Look past the typos,lol. I didn't check. ~raven In a message dated 12/28/2006 6:03:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, duemer at gmail.com writes: But there is a difference between creativity & illiteracy. I changed the sentence but I knew what I was doing. I don't think the sentence is as interesting grammatically correct but because my mold is a baby, I can agree to think differently. At first, I was fine with the change but every time I read it, the sound and meaning seems less. What that will mean to me later on will change and I am open to anything. I naturally go by sound, rhythm and meaning prior to grammar. I wonder how many would prefer the incorrect sentence? Maybe my style will challenge the grammatical standard. I just hear it differently. ~Raven grammatically incorrect Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. vs. grammatically correct In the deep forests, the baritone winds had their time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmarcacci at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 23:24:28 2006 From: bmarcacci at gmail.com (Bob Marcacci) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:24:28 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is grammatically correct with a line break and some puncturation, and, well, you don't even need the ellipsis: > Into the deep forests, the baritone winds... > has had its time. Ah, those crafty, winding baritones... Your instincts are fine. Can you combine everything? Your interest in sound and rhythm (which are mine, as well) with the grammatical? If you leave out consideration for something, you are missing an opportunity to make your writing reach further... -- Bob Marcacci Uttering a word is like striking a note on the keyboard of the imagination. - Ludwig Wittgenstein > From: > Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:50:14 EST > To: > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > > In a message dated 12/28/2006 6:03:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > duemer at gmail.com writes: > > But there is a difference between creativity & illiteracy. > > > I changed the sentence but I knew what I was doing. I don't think the > sentence is as interesting grammatically correct but because my mold is a > baby, I > can agree to think differently. At first, I was fine with the change but every > time I read it, the sound and meaning seems less. What that will mean to me > later on years will change and I am open to anything. > > I naturally go by sound, rhythm and meaning prior to grammar. I wonder how > many would prefer the incorrect sentence? Maybe my style will challenge the > grammatical standard. I just hear it differently. ~Raven > > grammatically incorrect > > > Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. > > vs. > grammatically correct > > > In the deep forests, the baritone winds had their time. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Thu Dec 28 23:46:32 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 23:46:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/28/2006 8:25:17 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, bmarcacci at gmail.com writes: If you leave out consideration for something, you are missing an opportunity to make your writing reach further... I agree with you Bob. Today, I have been working on putting line breaks in all of my writings. I completely agree with the line breaks you wrote. Thank you! I need to consider the alternatives in language as you mentioned. I will remember that. Firstly, I will approach by what moves me first in terms of sound and meaning and then secondly, with the correct grammatical approach. Then I will measure them against each other. This is going to be my approach based on the feedback, I have been given here. Also, the line breaks feels like a little cut inward. The sentence's take on another form. The influx and measuring what words are more significant than the other, feels like overload to me. And in some cases, I have discarded a few words because they seem pointless in this form. These are some of the reasons why I stirred away from this form and yet, I am enjoying this evolving sound. I feel its necessary. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Dec 28 23:49:42 2006 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 23:49:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Or how about "In the baritone forests, time has deeply had it." or "In deep time, the windy baritones have been forested." or . . . Hal "Start every day off with a smile, and get it over with." --W. C. Fields Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com halvard at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:50 PM, Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/28/2006 6:03:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > duemer at gmail.com writes: > But there is a difference between creativity & illiteracy. > I changed the sentence but I knew what I was doing. I don't think > the sentence is as interesting grammatically correct but because my > mold is a baby, I can agree to think differently. At first, I was > fine with the change but every time I read it, the sound and > meaning seems less. What that will mean to me later on years will > change and I am open to anything. > > I naturally go by sound, rhythm and meaning prior to grammar. I > wonder how many would prefer the incorrect sentence? Maybe my style > will challenge the grammatical standard. I just hear it > differently. ~Raven > > grammatically incorrect > > Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. > > vs. > grammatically correct > > In the deep forests, the baritone winds had their time. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Fri Dec 29 01:49:25 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 01:49:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Line breaks? Suggestions?~Raven In my dreams, a chateau took form. Native to what was, to come my fingers cast the arsonist as its masterpiece. Long suffering did not know the pucker of a vanishing tongue for I was, the hearer of illusions kissing nightmares under creaky doorways. Unburdened, I once danced to expected love's return. As sweet camouflage played, the attending antiquity was born in walls. Applauding mirrors mesmerize imitations in such a way that the enduring flair of an outsider carries sanity to the flame. How eerie it is to find myself emptied by wisdom, sitting alone as reflection paints anew. Intimacy must know my stories, to touch the treasured forbidden pulse. Can't I paraphrase the finale of my loathing that you might know enough? Here lay the ruins, from embezzled love and yet, look at how magnificent it all is. The crumbling walls will illuminate what?s caged and fallen and the splinter will dream of its depart. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Dec 29 07:46:29 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:46:29 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Noemi Press Message-ID: <015c01c72b47$5ca220f0$3fc93a52@ANNY> Please forward this to anyone you know that might be interested. Noemi Press will be reading manuscripts for second or third books of poetry until March 1, 2007. There is no reading fee but we hope you do consider purchasing one of our titles from our website. This submission period is for poets who have published at least one full-length collection of poetry in an edition of 500 copies or more. Please submit a 50-100 page manuscript (with a table of contents and an acknowledgments page) and an SASE to: Noemi Press Open Submission PO Box 1330 Mesilla Park, NM 88047 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Dec 29 07:52:26 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:52:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <008f01c72b48$31628b90$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> I understand, though I don't agree, what you mean by going by sound and rhythm rather than grammar. But I can't understand what you mean by meaning rather than grammar. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In a message dated 12/28/2006 6:03:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, duemer at gmail.com writes: But there is a difference between creativity & illiteracy. I changed the sentence but I knew what I was doing. I don't think the sentence is as interesting grammatically correct but because my mold is a baby, I can agree to think differently. At first, I was fine with the change but every time I read it, the sound and meaning seems less. What that will mean to me later on years will change and I am open to anything. I naturally go by sound, rhythm and meaning prior to grammar. I wonder how many would prefer the incorrect sentence? Maybe my style will challenge the grammatical standard. I just hear it differently. ~Raven grammatically incorrect Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. vs. grammatically correct In the deep forests, the baritone winds had their time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Dec 29 08:01:23 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:01:23 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <018601c72b49$71b1c070$3fc93a52@ANNY> Time baritone winds deep in the forests Deep forests wind the baritone of time Baritone forests time the deep winds Forests deep in time baritone winds Time winds baritone deep in the forests Forests of winds baritone time deeply Deep winds forest time baritones ----- Original Message ----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Or how about "In the baritone forests, time has deeply had it." or "In deep time, the windy baritones have been forested." or . . . Hal "Start every day off with a smile, and get it over with." --W. C. Fields Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com halvard at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:50 PM, Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/28/2006 6:03:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, duemer at gmail.com writes: But there is a difference between creativity & illiteracy. I changed the sentence but I knew what I was doing. I don't think the sentence is as interesting grammatically correct but because my mold is a baby, I can agree to think differently. At first, I was fine with the change but every time I read it, the sound and meaning seems less. What that will mean to me later on years will change and I am open to anything. I naturally go by sound, rhythm and meaning prior to grammar. I wonder how many would prefer the incorrect sentence? Maybe my style will challenge the grammatical standard. I just hear it differently. ~Raven grammatically incorrect Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. vs. grammatically correct In the deep forests, the baritone winds had their time. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 08:14:15 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 08:14:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: <20061229033127.50280.qmail@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200612290119.kBT1JL8X015260@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <20061229033127.50280.qmail@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alex, I have a lot of sympathy for your anti-language-legislation position. That's why I mentioned dialects & alternative grammars in a previous post. But we expect poets, in most circumstances, to be literate in sophisticated ways, or at least working toward such sophistication rather that finding excuses for carelessness & ignorance. In fact, most educated users of a language are multi-dialectical & can switch registers & dialects easily & naturally for effect, even inside a sentence. My point about Cummings is that he was a highly sophisticated user of language in both English & French & that his distortions & substitutions & shifts from high to low diction are onily possible because of that sophistication. It offends me to hear it suggested that Cummings, who wrote sonnets & ballads & other traditional forms (though usually with a twist, was a casual or sloppy user of language. He was not. Quite the opposite, in fact. Here, to take just one example from memory, Cummings displaces the order of the grammatical units of modern English in his sentences in order to suggest an earlier diction, but it is as precise & clear as anything you can imagine. He draws on an older form of the language in order to write a particular sort of modern poem. The use of "be" for instance was common in English through the 17th century & still occurs in some dialects. A poet working without such knowledge is, at least, putting herself at a disadvantage. The idea that such knowledge stifles "creativity" is one of the most pernicious misconceptions of American culture. All in green went my love riding on a great horse of gold into the silver dawn. four lean hounds crouched low and smiling the merry deer ran before. Fleeter be they than dappled dreams the swift sweet deer the red rare deer. [. . . .] On 12/28/06, Alexander Dickow wrote: > > Joseph, > Yes, I have read Cummings. Though not in any great > quantity. I'm inclined to believe you're probably > correct, but also that these terms > grammatical/ungrammatical might not be so useful after > all. How about sociolinguistic norms, ie of the white, > educated middle class? Grammatical or not, I'd say > Cummings successfully writes his way out of these, on > occasion. > Of course, I don't know what those "norms" are either, > but that's an old problem, isn't it? But there's > something about what I call "language legislation" > that bothers me -- maybe that's because I've been > thoroughly soaked/steeped in the French tradition, > which happens to be terribly rife with it (see the > Academie Francaise, c17th century). > Amicalement, > Alex > > > Joseph wrote: > Have you people read Cummings? He is entirely > grammatical. He makes > interesting, intentional substitutions of one part of > speech for > another, > but none of his work would makes sense without > readers' innate > understanding > of grammar. To say that Cummings is ungrammatical is > to misunderstand > both > Cummings & grammar. Cummings, buy the way, was steeped > in the > traditions of > Anglo-American poetry & in particular the very > exacting tradition of > the > sonnet. To read Cummings without knowing this is to > completely miss > what he > is about. I defy anyone to post a single sentence from > Cummings that is > not > grammatical. > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 08:29:33 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 08:29:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <018601c72b49$71b1c070$3fc93a52@ANNY> References: <018601c72b49$71b1c070$3fc93a52@ANNY> Message-ID: As someone who has been hard on you here, let me say that the poem you posted above, beginning "In my dreams, / a chateau took form" is imaginative & engaging. As an old creative writing teacher there are a few things I would quibble with, including the ungrammatical final word, but I'd be happy to hold this up as a interesting example to my students, something worthy of their full attention. I particularly like: As sweet camouflage played, the attending antiquity was born in walls. I think there is probably a stronger verb than "was" for the last line. In general, forms of the verb To Be (is, was, were, are, am, be, being) are more abstract & less punch in English that more specific verbs. One does not usually think of camouflage "playing" but when one does think of it in these lines, the image brings a number of possibilities forward & balances them nicely without resolution, carrying the reader along. There are other nice passages as well. jd On 12/29/06, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Time baritone winds deep in the forests > Deep forests wind the baritone of time > Baritone forests time the deep winds > Forests deep in time baritone winds > Time winds baritone deep in the forests > Forests of winds baritone time deeply > Deep winds forest time baritones > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > *Sent:* Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > Or how about > "In the baritone forests, time has deeply had it." > > or > > "In deep time, the windy baritones have been forested." > > or . . . > > Hal > > "Start every day off with a smile, > and get it over with." > --W. C. Fields > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > halvard at earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:50 PM, Rebuketheworld at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/28/2006 6:03:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > duemer at gmail.com writes: > > But there is a difference between creativity & illiteracy. > > I changed the sentence but I knew what I was doing. I don't think the > sentence is as interesting grammatically correct but because my mold is a > baby, I can agree to think differently. At first, I was fine with the change > but every time I read it, the sound and meaning seems less. What that will > mean to me later on years will change and I am open to anything. > > I naturally go by sound, rhythm and meaning prior to grammar. I wonder > how many would prefer the incorrect sentence? Maybe my style will challenge > the grammatical standard. I just hear it differently. ~Raven > > *grammatically incorrect* > > Into the deep forests, the baritone winds has had its time. > > vs. > *grammatically correct* > > In the deep forests, the baritone winds had their time. > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 08:43:29 2006 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 08:43:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: References: <200612290119.kBT1JL8X015260@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <20061229033127.50280.qmail@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Excellent thread, and Joseph I really agree with your insights about Cummings especially. His innovation was absolutely anchored in a very sophisticated knowledge of how language works and how far you can bend and push it. He opened up a new level of experimentation, of possibility. I just wanted to add one thing.... The idea that such knowledge stifles "creativity" is one of the most > pernicious misconceptions of American culture. This is the sort of idea I might expect to hear from a high school freshman who has no knowledge or experience and has never formally studied literature, maybe on the first day of class. That this has become a common position in our culture (The Dead Poets Society school of thought perhaps?) makes me want to reach for my Laphroaig (and it is not even 9am on this coast). I love it when poets bend grammar to a particular purpose-- but I like to see them do it from a position of knowledge. They should know what they are bending and why. It should mess with the reader's expectations. Startle and awaken. Making the common grammatical mistake of using "less" instead of "fewer", for example, is not experiment. That's just sloppiness and frankly makes me wonder if the writer actually reads. When I stayed at the Vermont Studio Center I remember a sign by the coffee machines that summed this up nicely: "Leaving empty coffee pots on active burners does not qualify as an installation!" Suzanne Burns -- "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and you have style." --Quentin Crisp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Fri Dec 29 10:08:03 2006 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:08:03 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer?= In-Reply-To: References: <200612290119.kBT1JL8X015260@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <20061229033127.50280.qmail@web35512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1167404883.45952f532b52d@webmail.ukonline.net> I don't recall if the recent thread mentioned (perhaps it was even originated by) Robin Robertson's new brief volume of versions from Enitharmon. So sorry if this has been mentioned before ... Anyway if you want a sample of Robertson at work I found this: http://www.blinking-eye.co.uk/pages/robin-robertson-poem.php Robin Robertson To Friends behind a Border after Transtr?mer 1. I wrote to you so cautiously. But what I couldn't say swelled and filled like a hot-air balloon and finally floated away through the night sky. 2. Now the letter is with the censor. He lights his lamp. In its glare my words leap up like apes at a wire-mesh, rattle it, stop, and bare their teeth. 3. Read between the lines. We will meet in two hundred years when the microphones in the hotel walls are forgotten and are allowed to sleep at last, become ammonites. ? Robin Robertson, 2006. ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From tad at opus40.org Fri Dec 29 11:52:04 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 11:52:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. References: <003201c72ac5$a162f750$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> <8C8F90535A55EE7-E5C-C2A6@webmail-db20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00b901c72b69$ab656d60$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> I exist on the fringes of academia, and the creative writing courses I teach are to beginning students. Some of them have talent, perhaps not the kind of talent that will translate into a writing career, or even an MFA career, but the kind of talent that can make you smile, as a teacher. Most but not all of them come into the course wanting to learn something, to expand their horizons. I do very little workshopping, because I don't think it's all that productive for beginning students. People aren't born with an innate gift for critiquing the work of their peers. I think the language of criticism, and ways of focusing on someone else's work, all have to be learned. In practice, workshopping on the Creative Writing I level can be mostly dead silence, "I really liked that," and the domination of the discussion by the only two students who are willing to say anything. So I use the internet for that part of the course. I divide the class up into small groups. The students in each group are to post their work to a bulletin board, and each student in the group is to post a critique of each other student's work. Then I can critique the critiques, and discuss what more can be done. This -- if it works -- helps to develop critical thinking and writing skills, which is potentially a good thing for liberal arts majors. If they focus too much on what I've been discussing in class that week -- line breaks and enjambments, say -- that's not the end of the world. I'm working on the process -- the critical thinking skills -- not trying to give them a literary theory-for-life. If they understand the process better, so that they can participate more actively in other class discussions during the rest of their college career, that's not a bad goal. And I do find, by the end of the semester, when I start to allow some workshopping, that the discussions are pretty good. ----- Original Message ----- From: faustina1 at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. Have to disagree with you about Gioia--some of his poetry is really fine and very unBushy. Have you read his "Planting a Sequoia" or "Counting the Children?" But as for teaching workshops--I do it because it is part of my teaching assignment, and I would rather teach the non-workshop classes. I like to teach the basic course on both graduate and undergraduate level, and to challenge the students to explore new directions. I try to make my assignments provocative and open, and give both constructive criticism and praise. And I teach everything from sonnets to postmodern experimentalism. It is the peer critiquing that I have trouble getting to work. I might add that when invited to do "workshops" at other places, I never do peer critiquing, but rather use some exercise, often an ekphrastic one. But the traditional peer-critique workshop is an integral part of our program. I would like to hear from those who have had success with it. It's fun to see it treated in movies, as in Wonder Boys. "They" never have much more luck with it than I do. I have had students do wonderfully as writers, but certainly not because of my workshop! One just had her memoir published by Time Warner and movie rights optioned. I am tremendously proud of her! But I had nothing at all to do with this. Best, Janet -----Original Message----- From: duemer at gmail.com Sent: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. "I have been conducting class workshops for maybe 40 years and am still not convinced of their value." Why do you continue to do it, then? That's a serious question, not a snarky one. I've been teaching "creative writing" -- mostly to beginners -- for 25 years & god knows that many days I feel the task it utterly hopeless, but I also think that at least some of the students derive a benefit from the experience. And the benefit is not that they become poets. In that quarter century of teaching, as far as I know, only a handful of my students have continued to write seriously. A few have gone on to MFAs, but not many. But my most attentive students have taken away from my classes a heightened respect for the power of language, both as language & as a medium of communication. As for pedagogical technique, I subscribe to the Sloppy Wet Kiss Before Sticking the Knife in Method (SWKBSKM). One can always find something to praise in a piece of writing -- a turn of phrase, a line break, an image, etc. And the praise has to be genuine & constructive. (There is nothing more alienating than pro forma praise.) But after the praise, I go for whatever the mo! st obvious problem with the poem might be. It's important to make sure students understand that one's criticism of a text does not equal criticism of the person who wrote the text. It has to be impersonal, but passionate. I would also assert that there are actual, concrete standards for poetry that transcend taste & opinion. It's just that those standards -- accuracy, clarity, intelligence, honesty, tact, & care for the difficulties of putting the world into language -- are not the sole concern of poetry. Poetry & its panoply of techniques -- along with the techniques of language in general -- are just a means for attaining those qualities. There are many ways to care about language, but the starting point for poetry is caring about language. People who cannot be bothered to make their verbs agree or to get the possessive case right, or who defend other forms of carelessness in the name of "creativity" simply cannot be poets. They may be fine people, but they are not poets. They are not poets in the same way that I am not a mathematician: I haven't got the techniques of mathematics. I would not to presume to post my "mathematical" speculations on an email list of mathematicians, f! or instance. So, I think a poet working in the Anglo-American tradition of the last thousand years or so ought to know about the ballad stanza & the sonnet & accentual-syllabic meter & all that stuff. Not that one need use these forms directly. I am not, in fact, a "traditionalist." My own work would be best described as modernist. Form for the sake of form, as with the so-called & now irrelevant New Formalists, is idiotic. Dana Gioia is the George Bush of American poetry. But to write without any knowledge of that tradition seems to me to write in a vacuum. Writing poems is a social act, it involves other people living & dead. Otherwise it's just spew. On 12/28/06, Skip Fox wrote: I think you've been given very good criticism. Maybe it's just my temperament not to do so. But I also think the value of such criticsm should be considered. Especially for young poets. I don't feel they need to have alarm bells ringing in the background as they write, at least not initially (first drafts). I too am a traditionalist. But creative writing in the university is a very short tradition (beginning in the 30s? Is that right?). Whereas the tradition I think most of us would find ourselves members of (even many of us who think ourselves as innovative) goes back several thousand years. One can teach quite a bit of traditional material by assigning a choice of exercises and by reading tons of many kinds of poetry in class). Another underconsidered assumption is that one must "know how to write a sonnet to break it" (or how is it said?). I've written hundreds of poems in multiple forms, but I can't honestly say that doing so has made a discernable difference (to the good) in my work. I think many people say that primarily to justify theirpast engagements. There are probably many other reasons as well, including good ones. At the least it's worth consideration. (I find it ironic that poets, at least the way I define them, interrogate everything, and yet they have multiple areas where questioning is not even considered. . . . Like blurbs on books . . . Not Eileen Tabios's poetry book on punctuation as a bright exception . . . she asks readers to write their own blurbs and gives them space to do so.) I like this discussion but need to go home and I can't post to New Poetics or Buffalo's list from home (and I'm always wondering why not). That doesn't mean I won't be reading the posts (if, of course, there are any more in this thread). I send this a thousand miles, thinking (paraphrased from Cathay) . . . -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Rebuketheworld at aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:50 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? To criticize or not. In a message dated 12/28/2006 12:01:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: How does one's writing ever get better if no one ever tells them it's not yet good enough or why? Lo, I honestly believe in criticism. My only fear is ones "creative draw" intermingling with criticism. For instance, I enjoy so many types of music genres. When I meet people who don't like classical or rock music and then they go on to criticize it, this doesn't wash with me. If you feel inspired by pop music than you have a valid position to take in how you judge the songs. I think the best critic a writer can hope for is one that can appreciate your style of writing or at least appreciate the attempt. In other words, if the poem is country music then the critic either enjoys country, has enjoyed some country songs or doesn't enjoy country music but can judge fairly within that disposition. I feel I have had good criticism here. ~Raven _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net ] _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Fri Dec 29 12:44:04 2006 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 09:44:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: <200612291700.kBTH048W029301@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <479123.34482.qm@web83110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In the deepest boughs of my forest, it was baritone time Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Fri Dec 29 13:44:12 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:44:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: Thanks JD. I will think on replacement for "was"...I know I love usings "as" and "its." If anything, I get a writers block when trying to finding a better substitute because the obvious like "her bloom" isn't interesting to me where "its bloom" is. I will need to buy some books. ..~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Fri Dec 29 14:06:09 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:06:09 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20Transtr=F6mer?= Message-ID: <38a.fdd819c.32c6c121@aol.com> In a message dated 12/29/2006 7:09:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: We will meet in two hundred years when the microphones in the hotel walls are forgotten and are allowed to sleep at last, become ammonites. I loved this! ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Fri Dec 29 14:10:53 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:10:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/29/2006 5:02:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: Deep forests wind the baritone of time Anny, I thought this one was nice...Thank you~ Halvard, this one- "In the baritone forests, time has deeply had it." I thought, "In the deep baritone forests, time had her." ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Dec 29 15:30:55 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:30:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Raw and Cooked References: Message-ID: <02ca01c72b88$3e5409b0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Where can I find a copy of Robert Lowell's Raw and Cooked essay? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.lott at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 21:59:54 2006 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 17:59:54 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings haters In-Reply-To: References: <200612281700.kBSH058X006702@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <631930.2067.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2d5ffa0b0612281143v19a59db9i41652c2afabd0bd3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0612291859r2fb56073g1ba7c6b094d4be39@mail.gmail.com> It depends on how you are defining grammar. Cummings definitely had (and created) rules, but he also wrote things that were "ungrammatical" if by grammar we mean conventions accepted when writing things other than poems in typical English classrooms. Further, to try to wedge his changes into conventional grammar robs the work of a lot of its power. I actually don't disagree with you at all. To simply say "cummings was ungrammatical" doesn't recognize the depth of his skill... but it's just as misleading to insist that he was "entirely grammatical" as if he were following conventional grammar in the way people are likely to understand that description. It is, after all, what sets him apart from many other contemporaries. No one here was using the description as a pejorative. c On 12/28/06, Joseph Duemer wrote: > Have you people read Cummings? He is entirely grammatical. He makes > interesting, intentional substitutions of one part of speech for another, > but none of his work would makes sense without readers' innate understanding > of grammar. To say that Cummings is ungrammatical is to misunderstand both > Cummings & grammar. Cummings, buy the way, was steeped in the traditions of > Anglo-American poetry & in particular the very exacting tradition of the > sonnet. To read Cummings without knowing this is to completely miss what he > is about. I defy anyone to post a single sentence from Cummings that is not > grammatical. > > > On 12/28/06, Suzanne Baran wrote: > > WELL SAID!!!! > > > > > > > > On 12/28/06, Alexander Dickow < alexdickow9 at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Lo, > > > "In less, of course, you meant" > > > I see you are an expert in perfect grammar. > > > I find your remarks about Cummings sort of > > > presumptuous, since I think what he did opened up many > > > possibilities that have yet to be exhausted. Although > > > not a rabid fan of Cummings, I find the alternative > > > position -- "you should respect grammar" to be rather > > > repulsive for all kinds of reasons, at least insofar > > > as it becomes a "position". _Write your English good_ > > > if you want, but don't discourage others from building > > > their _style_ in whatever sense they wish. > > > What's certainly most vexing to me -- perhaps I'm > > > alone on this -- is your rather tactless remarks to > > > Raven, which look like flaming to me. Others here have > > > succeeded in offering criticism in a both > > > uncompromising and much more kind fashion, Lo. > > > Keep reading, keep writing, Raven. > > > Amicalement, > > > Alex > > > > > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > > > > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > > > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "The reader, the thinker, the flaneur, are types of illuminati just as > much as the opium eater, the dreamer, the ecstatic. ? Not to mention that > most terrible drug - ourselves - which we take in solitude." - Walter > Benjamin > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > -- > Joseph Duemer > Professor of Humanities > Clarkson University > [sharpsand.net] > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Chris Lott From editor at drunkenpoets.com Fri Dec 29 22:28:18 2006 From: editor at drunkenpoets.com (editor at drunkenpoets.com) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:28:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Submissions Message-ID: <62299.72.38.208.245.1167449298.squirrel@webmail.netfirms.com> Hi all, This is my first post on this list. I have poetry to contribute but I thought I would first offer this submission call for the fun of it. This is a general call for submission for the upcoming issue of DrunkenPoets poetry magazine. This magazine is dedicated to the celebration of the individualist in poetic expression. We have a special calling to explore the power of the free market as it relates to artistic expression. See our submissions page for guidelines: http://www.drunkenpoets.com/index_files/current/sub_guidelin.htm Online submissions are enabled at: http://www.drunkenpoets.com/submit_form.htm I look forward to any comments and works to consider: http://www.drunkenpoets.com/ cheers, Derek ed. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Dec 30 10:31:46 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 16:31:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] Robert Graves Message-ID: <003701c72c27$9e16f5c0$4aad3252@ANNY> ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: anny.ballardini at tin.it Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 4:29 PM Subject: [NarcissusWorks] Robert Graves She Tells Her Love While Half Asleep by Robert Graves She tells her love while half asleep, In the dark hours, With half words whispered low; As earth stirs in her winter sleep And puts out grass and flowers Despite the snow, Despite the falling snow. =================================== sent by Jon Corelis =================================== -- Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 12/30/2006 04:26:00 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Dec 30 12:19:08 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:19:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cummings haters References: <200612281700.kBSH058X006702@wiz.cath.vt.edu><631930.2067.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com><2d5ffa0b0612281143v19a59db9i41652c2afabd0bd3@mail.gmail.com> <9b1b9dab0612291859r2fb56073g1ba7c6b094d4be39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002701c72c36$9e7348c0$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Let me just throw in that Cummings was an important Language Poet, but the language poets have never acknowledged his influence--that I know of. --Bob G. From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Sat Dec 30 14:36:02 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 14:36:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/30/2006 6:59:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: connecting to private things inside yourself. You need to find a way -- with words and rhythms -- to allow the reader to connect to things inside him or herself. Tad, sometimes what I feel has nothing to do with me. I think of others or a situation. I don't write about blue bonnets. I am not moved by that. Your the second person who said that a poet should write outside of himself. "Outside?"- hmm...Creative inspiration that has nothing to do with the writer? If I wrote about myself, how could that inspire less than if I wrote about another person? I do both. Most of the time, I write about emotions and no person in particular. Based on what people tell me which is really a small audience to judge by but they are moved. I write about what most of us have been through at some point in our live's. I am a bit perplexed by a standard that says a writer should be inspired when he is not the subject. Maybe I am confused by what you mean...the writer, is not the topic at hand? ???? For me, AWAY is euphoria but not a coma. I only write when I feel the magic of day dreams coming alive. I am literally there, in it, when I write. It such surreal magic and I wish I would have taken more time out of the chaos in my life and wrote more. I feel away AND from within even when I am writing about me or feelings in general or a person/situation. I guess what I am saying is how can inspiration be tainted by the subject matter whether it be me or someone else? ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sat Dec 30 15:35:31 2006 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:35:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] MIPOESIAS 2007 In-Reply-To: <62299.72.38.208.245.1167449298.squirrel@webmail.netfirms.com> Message-ID: <20061230203531.43039.qmail@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIPOESIAS 2007 FEATURING: LAURA MULLEN CAROLINE BERGVALL COLE SWENSEN RAE ARMANTROUT JENNIFER L. KNOX LEIGH STEIN WILLIAM STOBB MICHAEL PARKER AARON ANSTETT BRUCE COVEY P.F. POTVIN MATT HENRIKSEN CYNTHIA ARRIEU-KING RACHEL ZOLF ELLEN KENNEDY EDMUND BERRIGAN RUFO QUINTAVALLE http://www.mipoesias.com/ -- MiPOesias 2007 POETRY ARCHIVES - http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/ _____________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Sat Dec 30 15:57:35 2006 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 14:57:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c72c55$27e9e230$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Suzanne Burns wrote: "I love it when poets bend grammar to a particular purpose-- but I like to see them do it from a position of knowledge. They should know what they are bending and why. It should mess with the reader's expectations. Startle and awaken. Making the common grammatical mistake of using "less" instead of "fewer", for example, is not experiment. That's just sloppiness and frankly makes me wonder if the writer actually reads." I don't take exception with this, after all its a preference, but would like to say that the "knowledge" needn't necessarily be that of a parser or a good student in a (prescriptive) sophomore grammar course (do they still have such classes? . . . I'm not knocking these courses, just saying their sort of grammatical categorizations and relationships of phrases and words are not necessary to break the "rules"). I agree: a lot of sloppiness occurs by those who do not know how to read and get fewer grammar writes then their would otherways (joke), but there's also a deadliness of much stultifyingly "correct" verse. Perhaps Ella Wheeler Wilcox (made famous once again by Ashbery's "Variations, Calypso and Fugue on a Theme of Ella Wheeler Wilcox"-which he put in his Selected!) is grammatically correct, but. . . . Well, I wouldn't want to be one, as we used to say on the playground. (I know, another "error.") I agree with you Suzanne (and love the coffee pot) but wanted to extend possibilities a bit. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Suzanne Burns Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 7:43 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality Excellent thread, and Joseph I really agree with your insights about Cummings especially. His innovation was absolutely anchored in a very sophisticated knowledge of how language works and how far you can bend and push it. He opened up a new level of experimentation, of possibility. I just wanted to add one thing.... The idea that such knowledge stifles "creativity" is one of the most pernicious misconceptions of American culture. This is the sort of idea I might expect to hear from a high school freshman who has no knowledge or experience and has never formally studied literature, maybe on the first day of class. That this has become a common position in our culture (The Dead Poets Society school of thought perhaps?) makes me want to reach for my Laphroaig (and it is not even 9am on this coast). I love it when poets bend grammar to a particular purpose-- but I like to see them do it from a position of knowledge. They should know what they are bending and why. It should mess with the reader's expectations. Startle and awaken. Making the common grammatical mistake of using "less" instead of "fewer", for example, is not experiment. That's just sloppiness and frankly makes me wonder if the writer actually reads. When I stayed at the Vermont Studio Center I remember a sign by the coffee machines that summed this up nicely: "Leaving empty coffee pots on active burners does not qualify as an installation!" Suzanne Burns -- "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and you have style." --Quentin Crisp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LauraHeidy at aol.com Sat Dec 30 16:37:43 2006 From: LauraHeidy at aol.com (LauraHeidy at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 16:37:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/30/2006 2:36:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Rebuketheworld at aol.com writes: connecting to private things inside yourself. You need to find a way -- with words and rhythms -- to allow the reader to connect to things inside him or herself. I think that this may mean that people don't give a damn how the author feels.....what they give a damn about is how they feel. Tell the reader what you're feeling and you've got a "ho hum so what?" reader........Make them recognize something within themselves, however, and you've got an interested reader - as well as a successful poem. Lo-who's-usually-wrong -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Dec 30 18:25:34 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:25:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/30/2006 3:38:28 PM Central Standard Time, LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 12/30/2006 2:36:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > Rebuketheworld at aol.com writes: > > >> >> >>> connecting to private things inside yourself. You need to find a way -- >>> with words and rhythms -- to allow the reader to connect to things inside >>> him or herself. >> > > > I think that this may mean that people don't give a damn how the author > feels.....what they give a damn about is how they feel. > > Tell the reader what you're feeling and you've got a "ho hum so what?" > reader........Make them recognize something within themselves, however, and > you've got an interested reader - as well as a successful poem. > > Lo-who's-usually-wrong > There are three classical theories of what works of art do: 1. Mimetic--to imitate nature as closely as possible. 2. Expressive--to reveal the inner feelings of the artist. 3. Affective--to stimulate the reader/viewer/listener. I don't know if these still hold (given the advances offered by modern critical theory), but the first is Aristotelian, the second Romantic, and the third best explained by Mr. Poe. If you subscribe to this three-fold list, then the greatest work of art would be the one that worked equally well in all three ways. This is what Nietzsche believed. The problem is that he thought it was best exemplified by Wagnerian opera. For a while anyway . . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Dec 30 18:26:57 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:26:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality Message-ID: In a message dated 12/30/2006 2:57:51 PM Central Standard Time, skip at louisiana.edu writes: > ?I love it when poets bend grammar to a particular purpose-- but I like to > see them do it from a position of knowledge. They should know what they are > bending and why. It should mess with the reader's expectations. Startle and > awaken. Making the common grammatical mistake of using "less" instead of > "fewer", for example, is not experiment. That's just sloppiness and frankly > makes me wonder if the writer actually reads.? > > > > "Sheer plod makes plough down silion shine." Not that's what I call bending the rules! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Dec 30 18:32:45 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:32:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality Message-ID: One of the things that I've noticed more frequently in listening to younger students attempting to understand poems is that they don't seem to have any emotional context to help them identify with what well-known poems are saying. Take these, for example: "On First Looking into Chapman's Homer" "anyone lived in a pretty how town" "Eros Turranos" Song of Myself: 6 And many others. I often wonder what their emotional lives are like. It's very hard to teach them how to respond in the absence of any response. Are they in denial? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Dec 30 19:10:56 2006 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:10:56 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <648208b60612301610hd947771p760c25087d222d48@mail.gmail.com> I used to wonder about this also, Sam. But, then I tried a somewhat retrospective analysis of myself at 17 or 18 and decided my emotional content at that time was most likely very basic, black & white sturm und drang. Luckily, I was not yet writing. Or reading much, for that matter. - Jim, who is now retired from teaching and relieved of genuine concern over such matters On 12/30/06, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > One of the things that I've noticed more frequently in listening to younger > students attempting to understand poems is that they don't seem to have any > emotional context to help them identify with what well-known poems are > saying. Take these, for example: > > "On First Looking into Chapman's Homer" > "anyone lived in a pretty how town" > "Eros Turranos" > Song of Myself: 6 > > And many others. > > I often wonder what their emotional lives are like. It's very hard to > teach them how to respond in the absence of any response. Are they in > denial? > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org ~ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning ~ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html ~ http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/ From editor at pavementsaw.org Sat Dec 30 19:31:13 2006 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 16:31:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: <200612301700.kBUH068W014641@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20061231003113.24351.qmail@web83111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >>>Let me just throw in that Cummings was an important Language Poet, but the language poets have never acknowledged his influence--that I know of. --Bob G. Bob-- That is not true, Cummings died 10 years before the first language poet even had a book published, and 16 years before the magazine that created the phrase. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Dec 30 20:30:09 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:30:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 43 References: <20061231003113.24351.qmail@web83111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008401c72c7b$38ebde50$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> David, one can be something before it has a name. --Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: David Baratier To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 7:31 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 43 >>>Let me just throw in that Cummings was an important Language Poet, but the language poets have never acknowledged his influence--that I know of. --Bob G. Bob-- That is not true, Cummings died 10 years before the first language poet even had a book published, and 16 years before the magazine that created the phrase. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Dec 30 20:45:00 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:45:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <003a01c72c7d$492d53f0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Lo -- well, you're right this time, at least in interpreting what I was saying. Raven - if you've found an audience that's moved by what you're saying, then you're achieving your goals. ----- Original Message ----- From: LauraHeidy at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In a message dated 12/30/2006 2:36:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Rebuketheworld at aol.com writes: connecting to private things inside yourself. You need to find a way -- with words and rhythms -- to allow the reader to connect to things inside him or herself. I think that this may mean that people don't give a damn how the author feels.....what they give a damn about is how they feel. Tell the reader what you're feeling and you've got a "ho hum so what?" reader........Make them recognize something within themselves, however, and you've got an interested reader - as well as a successful poem. Lo-who's-usually-wrong ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Dec 30 20:46:29 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:46:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality References: Message-ID: <006701c72c7d$7de3be40$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Sam -- can you say a little more about this? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality One of the things that I've noticed more frequently in listening to younger students attempting to understand poems is that they don't seem to have any emotional context to help them identify with what well-known poems are saying. Take these, for example: "On First Looking into Chapman's Homer" "anyone lived in a pretty how town" "Eros Turranos" Song of Myself: 6 And many others. I often wonder what their emotional lives are like. It's very hard to teach them how to respond in the absence of any response. Are they in denial? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Sat Dec 30 20:52:21 2006 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 17:52:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: cummings In-Reply-To: <008401c72c7b$38ebde50$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <393435.10382.qm@web83113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Bob-- Cummings was interested in phonemes, morphemes, individual letters and their effect, and roots, on/in speech. L-po is, in nearly all constructs, Anti-speech, in fact "I hate speech" from Bob Grenier was picked up as some form of an anthem, and their focus was on the word substantially more so than individual units. Sorry, I am not buying this randomly chosen co-opt, Cummings had more kinship and truck with the concrete movement, who refused to induct him because he was "famous". Bob Grumman wrote: David, one can be something before it has a name. --Bob >>>Let me just throw in that Cummings was an important Language Poet, but the language poets have never acknowledged his influence--that I know of. --Bob G. Bob-- That is not true, Cummings died 10 years before the first language poet even had a book published, and 16 years before the magazine that created the phrase. Be well David Baratier, Editor Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Sat Dec 30 21:01:19 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 21:01:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/30/2006 1:38:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: I think that this may mean that people don't give a damn how the author feels Absolutely! Unfortunately, if the author feels nothing when they're writing more than likely no one else would either. They go hand and hand. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 30 22:35:50 2006 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 03:35:50 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 43 References: <20061231003113.24351.qmail@web83111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <008401c72c7b$38ebde50$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005d01c72c8c$c73b8a00$4001a8c0@pc2b565f661721> << David, one can be something before it has a name. --Bob >> A premature anti-New_Formalist, perhaps? Avant le lettre? Robin (Anticipating the Deluge) Actually, Bob, seriously, *can the thing exist before the name? A Signified without a Signifier? Whatever cummings was, he wasn't John the Baptist proclaiming the kingdom of Charles Bernstein yet to be. I still think the piece on cummings in Robert Graves' _Survey of Modernist Poets_, way back in the twenties or early thirties, before cummings was all that well known even in USAmerica, retains merit. There, Graves was examining some of cummings' negative sides as well as his merits. R. **************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: David Baratier To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 7:31 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 30, Issue 43 >>>Let me just throw in that Cummings was an important Language Poet, but the language poets have never acknowledged his influence--that I know of. --Bob G. Bob-- That is not true, Cummings died 10 years before the first language poet even had a book published, and 16 years before the magazine that created the phrase. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org From tad at opus40.org Sat Dec 30 23:46:14 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:46:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <003201c72c96$9a9d38e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> There's a wonderful book on jazz musicians called "But Beautiful," in which the author theorizes that Chet Baker played so beautifully, and drew such powerful emotion from his listeners, precisely because he felt nothing when he was playing. Who knows if it's true? Keats said it best, unsurprisingly: As to the poetical Character itself (I mean that sort of which, if I am any thing, I am a Member; that sort distinguished from the wordsworthian or egotistical sublime; which is a thing per se and stands alone) it is not itself - it has no self - it is every thing and nothing - It has no character - it enjoys light and shade; it lives in gusto, be it foul or fair, high or low, rich or poor, mean or elevated - It has as much delight in conceiving an Iago as an Imogen. What shocks the virtuous philosopher, delights the camelion Poet. It does no harm from its relish of the dark side of things any more than from its taste for the bright one; because they both end in speculation. A Poet is the most unpoetical of any thing in existence; because he has no Identity - he is continually in for - and filling some other Body - The Sun, the Moon, the Sea and Men and Women who are creatures of impulse are poetical and have about them an unchangeable attribute - the poet has none; no identity - he is certainly the most unpoetical of all God's Creatures. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In a message dated 12/30/2006 1:38:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: I think that this may mean that people don't give a damn how the author feels Absolutely! Unfortunately, if the author feels nothing when they're writing more than likely no one else would either. They go hand and hand. ~Raven ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Dec 31 03:15:29 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 09:15:29 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Writer's Almanac Message-ID: <004001c72cb3$d5c341e0$bea83252@ANNY> Poem: "Benediction" by Stanley Kunitz, from The Collected Poems. ? W.W. Norton. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) Benediction God banish from your house The fly, the roach, the mouse That riots in the walls Until the plaster falls; Admonish from your door The hypocrite and liar; No shy, soft, tigrish fear Permit upon your stair, Nor agents of your doubt. God drive them whistling out. Let nothing touched with evil, Let nothing that can shrivel Heart's tenderest frond, intrude Upon your still, deep blood. Against the drip of night God keep all windows tight, Protect your mirrors from Surprise, delirium, Admit no trailing wind Into your shuttered mind To plume the lake of sleep With dreams. If you must weep God give you tears, but leave You secrecy to grieve, And islands for your pride, And love to nest in your side. /////// -- Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 12/31/2006 09:11:00 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Dec 31 06:33:59 2006 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:33:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket 31 Message-ID: <00a901c72ccf$90c28cb0$bea83252@ANNY> " Announcing Jacket 31 " As the shades of 2006 gather to bid us farewell... the glow of a gleaming new Jacket lights up the night sky... Jacket 31 - October 2006 - via http://jacketmagazine.com/00/home.shtml Featuring the late great Robert Creeley... poetry from the Low Countries... the Letter to Poets project... more on the Phlarf Phenomenon... and millions of poems, reviews, articles, and interviews. >>>>>> Feature: Robert Creeley (1926-2005) Edited by Michael Kelleher --- Robert Creeley, 'Wow. I called it and why not:' 7 letters, 1950-1961, edited by Rod Smith, Peter Baker and Kaplan Harris. --- Charles Alexander: Robert Creeley: The Speech that Seeks Company (two brief notes) --- Amiri Baraka: CREELEY TRIBUTE, MAY 06 JUST BUFFALO --- Benjamin Friedlander: Reading in Pieces --- Susan Howe: Leaf Flower in the Wind Falling Blue The Dark River --- From Words to Pieces: On Robert Creeley, A tape-essay by Tosa Motokiyu, Ojiu Norinaga, and Okura Kyojin, with an introduction by Kent Johnson and Javier Alvarez --- Alexander Jorgensen: Emails to a Younger Poet --- Margaret Konkol: Creeley in Age: Negative Poetics in Robert Creeley's Late Work --- Ruth Lepson: "It Is All a Rhythm": Robert Creeley and Steve Lacy --- Stan Persky: About Robert Creeley (1926-2005) --- Kyle Schlesinger: GETTING Behind the Word: Creeley's TyPOGRAPHY --- Dale Smith: Space Suits: the Empirical Tradition in Robert Creeley's "A Day Book" --- Joel Weishaus: A Poem Addressed to Robert Creeley on His Poem "Histoire De -Florida." --- Don Wellman: Creeley's Ear >>>>>> Robert Creeley in earlier issues of Jacket: --- Jacket 12 - Robert Creeley: Preface to /Against the Silences/, by Paul Blackburn --- Jacket 12 - Robert Creeley: Preface to 'Charles Olson...', by Tom Clark --- Jacket 14 - Robert Creeley: Scholar's Rocks (poem) - art by Jim Dine --- Jacket 15 - Robert Creeley: For Kenneth [Koch] --- Jacket 22 - Robert Creeley: In Memoriam Ric Caddel --- Jacket 25 - Robert Creeley - Simon Pettet's Calling --- Jacket 25 - Robert Creeley in Conversation with Leonard Schwartz, 24 November, 2003 --- Jacket 26 - Robert Adamson: Robert Creeley, 1926-2005 >>>>>> Feature: The Low Countries - Editor: Karlien van den Beukel --- Karlien van den Beukel: Introduction [to come] --- Paul Bogaert: ADDRESS, translated by John Irons --- Arjen Duinker: Senses and Desires, translated by Jeltje Fanoy --- Hans Faverey: Poems from Three Cycles: translated by Francis R. Jones --- Astrid Lampe: 4 Poems from "Spuit je Ralkleur" (Spray your RAL Colour) --- Lucebert: Four Poems, translated by Diane Butterman --- Erik Spinoy: Three poems, translated by John Irons --- Dirk van Bastelaere: Wwwhhhooossshh (The Opera Ain't Over Till The Fat Lady Sings), trans. Willem Groenewegen --- F. van Dixhoorn: Two Poems: 'All at sea' and 'Big batten', trans. Astrid van Baalen, with a note on the translation --- ...more to follow --- Reviews: Andrew Duncan: "The Last to Leave" by Dirk van Bastelaere --- Douglas Messerli: Three reviews: Hugo Claus, Remco Campert, Hans Faverey --- Eliot Weinberger: "Preface Against the Forgetting: Selected Poems" by Hans Faverey, trans. by Francis Jones >>>>>> Feature: Letters to Poets --- Introduction: Dana Teen Lomax and Jennifer Firestone: Letters To Poets: Conversations About Poetics, Politics, and Community --- Kathleen Fraser and Patrick Pritchett --- Paul Hoover and Albert Flynn DeSilver --- Leslie Scalapino and Judith Goldman >>>>>> Articles --- Charles Bernstein: Afterword to "The Holy Forest: Collected Poems of Robin Blaser" (Revised and Expanded Edition) Edited by Miriam Nichols --- Rachel Blau DuPlessis: Manhood and its Poetic Projects: The construction of masculinity in the counter-cultural poetry of the U.S. 1950s --- Jonathan Fedors: Writing Class in Kevin Davies' "Comp" --- John Felstiner and David Goldstein: The Lure of the God: Robert Duncan on Translating Rilke --- Chris Glomski: Leafing The Now: "Depth Theology" by Peter O'Leary, "The Totality for Kids" by Joshua Clover --- Piers Hugill: "Fig" by Caroline Bergvall, and "Via: Poems 1994-2004", by Caroline Bergvall --- Tom Jones: "The Unconditional: A Lyric" by Simon Jarvis --- Poets Behaving Badly: Robert Sheppard: "Poetry Wars: British Poetry of the 1970s and the Battle of Earls Court" by Peter Barry: 'What the Arts Council's investigating team had failed to achieve in months I accomplished in seconds,' boasts Osborne of the fateful meeting when the avalanche of resignations was triggered by chairman Jeff Nuttall. 'They marched out of the room, and I asked the Secretary to be certain to record their resignations in the minutes, for fear they should come to what senses they possessed and march back in again. But they didn't return. Was ever a victory so inadvertently achieved?' --- Anthony Stephens: Nietzsche's Unease: The Ambiguity of Poetic Metaphor >>>>>> Poems --- Caroline Bergvall: The Summer Tale (Deus Hic, 1) --- Sean Carey: Looking at Peter Porter after many years --- Sharon Dolin: Four poems: Missed Hummer / The Give, Seek, Am / This Scabbard's Free / Lick-Over --- Landis Everson: Jack, My Vocabulary Said This --- Adam Fieled: Apparition Poems --- Alan Gilbert: from "Pretty Words Made a Fool Out of Me" --- rob mclennan: Four poems --- D.S. Marriott: the levees --- Geoff Page: Ugly Beauty --- Hazel Smith: In camera --- Mark Yakich: New Love Poem --- Jeffrey Yang: Bedsong for A - after Ian Hamilton Finlay (1925-2006) --- Todd Swift: Four poems: Confessions / The Serious Business / I'm In Love With A German Film Star / Hume --- John Tranter: Girl in Water --- Harriet Zinnes: Possibilities --- Grzegorz Wr?blewski: Two poems: A Summation Scheme (About the Illness of John T.) / Black Head >>>>>> Interviews --- Janet Cardiff in conversation with Anthony Easton --- The Romantic Objectivist: Hugh Seidman in conversation with Molly Nason, 2006 >>>>>> More on Flarf --- Michael Gottlieb: Googling Flarf --- Rick Snyder: The New Pandemonium: A Brief Overview of Flarf >>>>>> Reviews --- Erik Anderson: Cockerels and Testicles: "Exchanges of Earth & Sky" by Jack Collom --- Martin Anderson: "New and Selected Poems" by Kelvin Corcoran --- Scott Bentley: "Perspective Would Have Us" by Erica Carpenter --- Clive Bush: "Myne. New and Selected Poems and Prose, 1976-2005" by Frances Presley --- John Couth: "Inside to Outside" by Christopher Gutkind --- Ian Davidson: "Collected Poems" by Lee Harwood --- Thomas Fink: "The Secret Lives of Punctuations, Vol. 1" by Eileen R. Tabios --- Kass Fleisher: "Nightbirds" by Garin Cycholl --- Tom Goff: "Must Be Present to Win", poems by Meg Withers --- Henry Gould: "Breeze" by John Latta --- Lisa Guidarini: "Jagged With Love" by Susanna Childress --- Edmund Hardy: "The Places As Preludes" by Gustaf Sobin --- Edmund Hardy: "Ancestors and Species: New & Selected Ethnographic Poetry" by Tom Lowenstein --- Tim Kahl: "Mulberry", by Dan Beachy-Quick --- David Kennedy: Ken Bolton, "At The Flash & At The Baci" - Four Coffees with Ken Bolton --- Michael Leddy: Homer: "Iliad" 12 CDs and "Odyssey" 10CDs, translated and read by Stanley Lombardo: '...I have been reading and teaching the Iliad and the Odyssey in Lombardo's translations for several years, and I'm delighted by the ways in which listening to these readings allows nuances of the poems to register.' --- Ben Lerner: "Curves to the Apple", by Rosmarie Waldrop --- Nicole Mauro: "Twin Towers" by Basil King --- Nicole Mauro: "Gogol in Rome" by Katia Kapovich --- Bridie McCarthy: "Strange Attractors", by Louis Armand --- Tim Morris: "Word is Born", by Michael Kindellan and Reitha Pattison --- Robert Mueller: "Ledger" by Susan Wheeler --- Paul Nelson: "Lost in the Chamiso" by Amalio Madue?o --- Paul Nelson: "Fulcrum" Number Four 2005 --- Craig Perez: "Involuntary Lyrics" by Aaron Shurin --- Gilbert Wesley Purdy: "Concerning The Book That Is The Body Of The Beloved" by Gregory Orr --- Brian Richards: "Epigramititis: 118 Living American Poets" by Kent Johnson --- Peter Riley: "Blue Grass" by Peter Minter --- Dale Smith: "Solution Simulacra" by Gloria Frym --- Rob Stanton: "Open Clothes" by Steve Benson --- James Stuart: "The Trees: Selected Poems 1967-2004" by E. Montejo and "Walking to Point Clear" by David Brooks --- Ezra Tessler: "The Collected Fiction of Kenneth Koch", by Kenneth Koch --- Carolyn van Langenberg: "The Hoplite Journals" by Martin Anderson --- Mark Wallace: "Industrial Poetics: Demo Tracks for a Mobile Culture" by Joe Amato: '... That such forums continue to exist in a society often so hostile to them gives Amato at least a degree of optimism on which to conclude a book that spends most of its time detailing a vast industry of unfreedom and the anguish it causes.' --- Ivan Weiss: "Gagarin Street" by Piotr Gwiazda --- Marjorie Welish: "Spinoza in Her Youth" by Norma Cole ________________ "People strike sparks off each other; that is what I try to note down. But mark well, they only do this when they are talking together. After all, we don't write letters now, we telephone. And one of these days we are going to have TV sets which lonely people can talk to and get answers back. Then no one will read anymore." -- British novelist Henry Green (to Terry Southern, "Paris Review" interview, 1958) Thanks to the many poets, reviewers, writers and editors who have offered their work to Jacket free of charge. If you'd like to be taken off this mailing list, please just go to Jacket's email page at http://jacketmagazine.com/00/email-jacket.shtml and ask -- John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine -- Pam Brown, Associate Editor, Jacket magazine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 09:14:40 2006 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 09:14:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/30/06, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > > I often wonder what their emotional lives are like. It's very hard to > teach them how to respond in the absence of any response. Are they in > denial? I try to take into account the fact that fir many students poetry has been taught to them as a cypher loaded with symbols that has to be decoded and if they give the wrong answer-- ZAP! Lack of response doesn't necessarily mean lack of an inner life-- it just means that the subject might be something they don't know how to approach. It also might mean that *you* are not easy to approach as a teacher. Its the fear fear of giving the "wrong" answer. (Haven't we all had that? I don't klnow about you, but I still have Algebra nightmares). I remember seeing this even in very good students, especially those who are in the sciences (where there really is more of a process to analyzing and finding the "smart" answer)-- they feel subject to the whims of what appears to them to be a very whimsical process-- and let's face it, compared to science teachers, literature teachers can seem awfully whimsical. If I were a student and a teacher started analyzing my "inner life" based upon my participation in class, I might start wonder whether I was in school or therapy and might feel very intruded upon. It can be hard work getting students to get into the groove of how to discuss poetry. Often a good way to break the ice is to get them to talk about literature/media they have already read and really love and to talk about how and where they find its meaning. And yes, the emotional content. Ask them about Neil Stephenson or Neil Gaiman and see what happens. Don't tell them what their inner lives should be-- give them some time to show you what it is-- and accept that some students might be considerably more introverted in that area. Suzanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsillima at yahoo.com Sun Dec 31 10:37:47 2006 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 07:37:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] MLA off-site reading on-line Message-ID: <707626.69208.qm@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The giant MLA offsite reading from Friday night is now online and can be listened to and/or downloaded at http://miporadio.blogspot.com/ Here are pictures from the reading: http://www.flickr.com/photos/silliman/sets/72157594448158467/ Readers included, in this order: Aaron Kunin Adam Fieled Sasha Steensen Dennis Barone Aldon Neilsen Ben Friedlander Bill Howe (quartet) Bob Perelman Brent Cunningham (phone call with "Chris") Brian Kim Stefans C. A. Conrad Camille Martin Cathy Eisenhower Charles Bernstein Christian Bok Eduardo Espina translation by Loren Goodman Elaine Terranova Ethel Rackin Evie Shockley Frank Sherlock Hank Lazer Herman Beavers Jena Osman Jennifer Scappetone Joan Retallack Caroline Bergvall Johanna Drucker John Wilkinson Josh Schuster Kathy Lou Schultz Lamont Steptoe Laura Moriarty Leevi Lehto Linda Russo Linh Dinh Loren Goodman Matthew Cooperman Michael Tod Edgerton Nat Anderson Nick Monfort Norma Cole Patrick Durgin (Patrick introduces himself as Charles Bernstein) Rachel DuPlessis Ron Silliman Susan Schultz Timothy Yu Tom Devaney Tom Orange Tracy Morris Tyrone Williams Carla Harryman Barrett Watten Walter Lew (odd sounds are first: Walter throwing himself across a grand piano, playing some Miles Davis, then later rushing out to cut Aldon Nielson's tie in half, then finally throwing himself back over piano) Will Esposito Yunte Huang Stop by Ron Silliman's page on miporadio.net for other recordings.: http://www.miporadio.net/RON_SILLIMAN And of course Silliman?s Blog: http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Dec 31 11:17:22 2006 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:17:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality Message-ID: In a message dated 12/31/2006 7:56:58 AM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > > > One of the things that I've noticed more frequently in listening to younger > students attempting to understand poems is that they don't seem to have any > emotional context to help them identify with what well-known poems are saying. > Take these, for example: > > "On First Looking into Chapman's Homer" > "anyone lived in a pretty how town" > "Eros Turranos" > Song of Myself: 6 > > And many others. > > I often wonder what their emotional lives are like. It's very hard to teach > them how to respond in the absence of any response. Are they in denial? Maybe it's just lack of experience, not lack of an emotional life. But even young people can gain experience by reading, and they don't read. You're not going to tap into deeper emotional realms by watching tv, that's for sure. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 31 11:17:35 2006 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:17:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] unfeeling poets In-Reply-To: <200612311111.kBVBBc8X028292@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <654658.99707.qm@web35507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The Old Mole wrote: "There's a wonderful book on jazz musicians called "But Beautiful," in which the author theorizes that Chet Baker played so beautifully, and drew such powerful emotion from his listeners, precisely because he felt nothing when he was playing. Who knows if it's true? Keats said it best, unsurprisingly:" Old Mole, You might enjoy reading, in the same vein and if you haven't already, Diderot's Paradoxe du comedien -- where the notion of the best artist being unfeeling was best discussed in the 18th century. You can find much the same sort of thing in a few much too famous passages in Baudelaire and many others (and the Keats is an old fave, for sure), but I dig the Diderot. Recommended to all, Margaret Konkol's piece on Creeley. Margaret's fabulous (one of these days I'll convince her to publish her poetry) -- Happy New Year's Eve! Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From tad at opus40.org Sun Dec 31 11:26:16 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:26:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Raw and Cooked Message-ID: <005701c72cf8$65b830f0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> I posted this a few days ago, but it may have gotten lost in the shuffle of Cummings and Raven. I'm looking for Lowell's essay/speech on "The Raw and the Cooked." Surely it's been collected somewhere? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sun Dec 31 11:57:39 2006 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:57:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] For Your Listening Pleasure ... In-Reply-To: <20061230203531.43039.qmail@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061231165739.68292.qmail@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MLA offsite Reading - December 29, 2006 The MLA offsite audio is divided into three parts for your listening pleasure -- [ http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=74194035 ] The reading features the following readers (many thanks to Ron Silliman for recording): Aaron Kunin Adam Fieled Sasha Steensen Dennis Barone Aldon Neilsen Ben Friedlander Bill Howe (quartet) Bob Perelman Brent Cunningham (phone call with "Chris") Brian Kim Stefans C. A. Conrad Camille Martin Cathy Eisenhower Charles Bernstein Christian B?k Eduardo Espina translation by Loren Goodman Elaine Terranova Ethel Rackin Evie Shockley Frank Sherlock Hank Lazer Herman Beavers Jena Osman Jennifer Scappetone Joan Retallack Caroline Bergvall Johanna Drucker John Wilkinson Josh Schuster Kathy Lou Schultz Lamont Steptoe Laura Moriarty Leevi Lehto Linda Russo Linh Dinh Loren Goodman Matthew Cooperman Michael Tod Edgerton Nat Anderson Nick Monfort Norma Cole Patrick Durgin (Patrick introduces himself as Charles Bernstein) Rachel DuPlessis Ron Silliman Susan Schultz Timothy Yu Tom Devaney Tom Orange Tracy Morris Tyrone Williams Carla Harryman Barrett Watten Walter Lew (odd sounds are first, Walter throwing himself across a grand piano, then later rushing out to cut Aldon Nielson's tie in half, then finally throwing himself back over piano) Will Esposito Yunte Huang PART 1 - [ http://www.miporadio.net/RON_SILLIMAN/MLA%20offsite%20reading_2006_12_29_part1.mp3 ] PART 2 - [ http://media.libsyn.com/media/miporadio/MLA_offsite_reading_2006_12_29_part2.mp3 ] PART 3 - [ http://media.libsyn.com/media/miporadio/MLA_offsite_reading_2006_12_29_part3.mp3 ] Stop by iTunes to subscribe to miPOradio: where poetry tunes in.... - [ http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=74194035 ] Stop by Ron Silliman's page on miporadio.net for other recordings - http://www.miporadio.net/RON_SILLIMAN _________________ http://www.miporadio.com/ http://www.mipoesias.com/ ________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 12:25:28 2006 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:25:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/31/06, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > Maybe it's just lack of experience, not lack of an emotional life. But > even young people can gain experience by reading, and they don't read. > You're not going to tap into deeper emotional realms by watching tv, that's > for sure. Not by TV alone, that is for sure-- it's innately passive (interestingly, in Stephenson's futuristic worlds, old tv shows and movies are refered to dismissively as "passives", a recognition of how media in many places is becoming so much more participatory). Personally, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss alternate media-- maybe I hang out too much with the folks in MIT's comparative media department, but I see no reason at all why only one medium can tap into "deeper emotional realms". The potential is there in many things; the quality depends upon the artist who uses the medium. You may find that your students are very articulate about the emotional depths they experience in music or film-- this might assist you in getting them to see the same things in what they read and take up the challenge. That said-- yes, inexperience. I don't know how old your students are, but they just might not have a lot of practice identifying their response beyond the "entertainment mode"-- I liked it, I don't like it, it offended me. The emotions are there, but they are intellectually like that gawky teenage boy who doesn't know how to undo the bra hooks. They just need practice. Some will take to it, others will not. In the case of the latter, I would just assume that they are engaged by something else. Cheers, Suzanne -- "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and you have style." --Quentin Crisp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Dec 31 12:44:52 2006 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:44:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F7B4661-C20B-40DF-9CE7-A46E4B485C13@earthlink.net> Hmm, I just googled "bra hooks" thinking that, in the Age of the Hook- up, they'd gone the way of anarchronisms like "making love" and "having sex," and, much to my surprise, found that their are still such things around to challenge whatever gawky teenage boys may still exist. What a surprise! Hal Today's Special G(e)nome http://www.xpressed.org/fall03/genome.pdf Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com halvard at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Dec 31, 2006, at 12:25 PM, Suzanne Burns wrote: > > > On 12/31/06, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > Maybe it's just lack of experience, not lack of an emotional life. > But even young people can gain experience by reading, and they > don't read. You're not going to tap into deeper emotional realms > by watching tv, that's for sure. > > > Not by TV alone, that is for sure-- it's innately passive > (interestingly, in Stephenson's futuristic worlds, old tv shows and > movies are refered to dismissively as "passives", a recognition of > how media in many places is becoming so much more participatory). > Personally, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss alternate media-- > maybe I hang out too much with the folks in MIT's comparative media > department, but I see no reason at all why only one medium can tap > into "deeper emotional realms". The potential is there in many > things; the quality depends upon the artist who uses the medium. > You may find that your students are very articulate about the > emotional depths they experience in music or film-- this might > assist you in getting them to see the same things in what they read > and take up the challenge. > > That said-- yes, inexperience. I don't know how old your students > are, but they just might not have a lot of practice identifying > their response beyond the "entertainment mode"-- I liked it, I > don't like it, it offended me. The emotions are there, but they > are intellectually like that gawky teenage boy who doesn't know how > to undo the bra hooks. They just need practice. Some will take to > it, others will not. In the case of the latter, I would just > assume that they are engaged by something else. > > Cheers, > > Suzanne > > > > -- > "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets > and what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with > you,' polish that, and you have style." > > --Quentin Crisp > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Dec 31 12:46:06 2006 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:46:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet for the New Year Message-ID: <05F338F8-D7B8-4440-A9CB-BB76EBD18858@earthlink.net> Sonnet for the New Year Pleistocene campfires flickering in the distance, deeply rooted slogans chat it up with money barons. Medical malpractice suits us just fine, thank you very much. For instance, well-delivered apologies salve all wounds. Partial reconciliations break step when crossing a bridge, miraculous transformations no longer expected or offered. Higher disease rates unrelated to education or health costs speak volumes to our well-tuned ears. Biology urges us to seek out music in the company of other people. Yahweh and other loud cellphone talkers gather to break bread to- gether, airwaves atremble with salutations, with greetings. On everyone?s lips, prospects for reelection, for theatrical productions that do not close in a month or less. And soon, all spats aside, someone texts us a toast, and all follow suit. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com halvard at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 12:53:15 2006 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:53:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My housemate, who is a media studies professor at Emerson and who writes film scripts, was looking over my shoulder as I wrote that last reply. Her response: Please tell your list that feature filmmaking, thanks to the Hollywood blockbuster hegemony, is pretty dead right now, and most of the really creative and innovative work is being done on television. She recommends that you watch Six Feet Under and then get back with any contemporary poet (post-Creeley, whom she adores) who even comes close to its emotional depth. Her opinion is that too many contemporary poets barely skim the emotional surface and repeat themselves a lot, and speculates that perhaps the excesses of the "confessional movement" scared a lot of poets away from emotional content, sending them fleeing to the fields of abstraction and formal experiment, and who can blame them. We both agree that sometimes film explores an emotional depth without necessarily evoking the same exploration on the part of the viewer ("passives"), and that reading is innately more meditative. She is making brunch as I speak (good housemate!) while continuing to wonder if poetry is even a particularly good medium for plumbing emotional depths, given how condensed it is. I am hauling down my Mark Doty right now to make a counter argument to this, while she simulatanously admits that Creeley proves her deeply wrong on that. I predict and afternoon watching DVDs and ploughing through many books, followed by an evening spent eating tapas with geeks and more chatter. Posted at her request. Suzanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 13:14:35 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:14:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Add Deadwood to Six Feet Under on the list of innovative television. Actually, I find both these shows hard to watch (I'm such a sensitive soul!). On 12/31/06, Suzanne Burns wrote: > > My housemate, who is a media studies professor at Emerson and who writes > film scripts, was looking over my shoulder as I wrote that last reply. > > Her response: Please tell your list that feature filmmaking, thanks to > the Hollywood blockbuster hegemony, is pretty dead right now, and most of > the really creative and innovative work is being done on television. She > recommends that you watch Six Feet Under and then get back with any > contemporary poet (post-Creeley, whom she adores) who even comes close to > its emotional depth. > > Her opinion is that too many contemporary poets barely skim the emotional > surface and repeat themselves a lot, and speculates that perhaps the > excesses of the "confessional movement" scared a lot of poets away from > emotional content, sending them fleeing to the fields of abstraction and > formal experiment, and who can blame them. We both agree that sometimes > film explores an emotional depth without necessarily evoking the same > exploration on the part of the viewer ("passives"), and that reading is > innately more meditative. > > She is making brunch as I speak (good housemate!) while continuing to > wonder if poetry is even a particularly good medium for plumbing emotional > depths, given how condensed it is. I am hauling down my Mark Doty right now > to make a counter argument to this, while she simulatanously admits that > Creeley proves her deeply wrong on that. I predict and afternoon watching > DVDs and ploughing through many books, followed by an evening spent eating > tapas with geeks and more chatter. > > Posted at her request. > > Suzanne > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 13:20:32 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:20:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <003201c72c96$9a9d38e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> References: <003201c72c96$9a9d38e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: Eliot said he would have preferred to have been able to publish anonymously. He may even have meant it. And Donald Justice wished that he had lived during a time with a "period style" that he could have adopted. Our best artists seem to understand that their art has very little to do with self expression. jd On 12/30/06, TheOldMole wrote: > > There's a wonderful book on jazz musicians called "But Beautiful," in > which the author theorizes that Chet Baker played so beautifully, and drew > such powerful emotion from his listeners, precisely because he felt nothing > when he was playing. Who knows if it's true? > > Keats said it best, unsurprisingly: > > As to the poetical Character itself (I mean that sort of which, if I am > any thing, I am a Member; that sort distinguished from the wordsworthian or > egotistical sublime; which is a thing per se and stands alone) it is not > itself - it has no self - it is every thing and nothing - It has no > character - it enjoys light and shade; it lives in gusto, be it foul or > fair, high or low, rich or poor, mean or elevated - It has as much delight > in conceiving an Iago as an Imogen. What shocks the virtuous philosopher, > delights the camelion Poet. It does no harm from its relish of the dark side > of things any more than from its taste for the bright one; because they both > end in speculation. A Poet is the most unpoetical of any thing in existence; > because he has no Identity - he is continually in for - and filling some > other Body - The Sun, the Moon, the Sea and Men and Women who are creatures > of impulse are poetical and have about them an unchangeable attribute - the > poet has none; no identity - he is certainly the most unpoetical of all > God's Creatures. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Rebuketheworld at aol.com > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Saturday, December 30, 2006 9:01 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? > > In a message dated 12/30/2006 1:38:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, > LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: > > I think that this may mean that people don't give a damn how the author > feels > > Absolutely! Unfortunately, if the author feels nothing when they're > writing more than likely no one else would either. They go hand and hand. > ~Raven > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 13:35:17 2006 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:35:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/31/06, Joseph Duemer wrote: > > Add Deadwood to Six Feet Under on the list of innovative television. > Actually, I find both these shows hard to watch (I'm such a sensitive > soul!). Me too, but in a good way. I was just watching Season 4 of Six Feet Under recently and one episode in particular, the one where David is carjacked, left me feeling decidely *not* safe. The final episode of that season, when David is visited by his dead father and finds closure, was truly profound and approached poetry for me. I would say if you wanted to get students talking about the emotion in poetry, pick an actual emotional topic, such as death and grief, then prime the pump by having them watch a juicy episoide of Six Feet Under (maybe the Pilor episode, which is excellent), then send them home with a packet of selected poems and some guided meditation questions that take on the same subject matter and.... In other words start with the emotion, rathyer than a specific poet. I am willing to bet that the conversation will take off very naturally from there. You will discover a great deal about your students, and the ice will be firmly and completely broken. Thoughts, Suzanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Sun Dec 31 14:15:08 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:15:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/31/2006 10:21:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, duemer at gmail.com writes: Our best artists seem to understand that their art has very little to do with self expression. Bukowski is one Poet, who would disagree with you. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Sun Dec 31 14:50:14 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:50:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/31/2006 5:52:49 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Raven -- what's your story? Tell us a little about you. Education? I studied Mechanical Engineering for two years. I studied higher level Math for a year and then turned to Sociology/Women's Studies. I received my Bachelors at PSU but after ten years spending much time dodging the completion of anything and learning much. I am one of those folks who could go to college for the rest of her life. I love the feeling of old buildings, classrooms, the inspiration, the smells, its all wonderful to me. I ended up working part time, being a mom, wife now ex-wife and sacrificed my potential career early on. Big mistake. I really didn't have a degree that would provide much of an income but I really wanted to get my Masters but finances and child rearing made it difficult. I also left my Ex and couldn't balance ambition, being a mother and struggling monetarily. I wrote sing songy poetry as a teenager and a young adult. Yah know, those perfect rhymes which I now hate. Last year, I wrote quite a few short stories and I am working on a book about men/ women/relationships. I have a news blog on AOL blogs. I get about 1,000 hits a month which is obviously no biggee. I am very passionate and honest about my existence and others. I have probably put more mind energy into studying people than anything else. I discovered a few months ago, when trying a new approach to what I was feeling and not word manipulation for those perfect rhyme was, magic. I visualize what I write. I have much to learn but the magic is there and I will dive into it for the rest of my days. I am also a nature lover. I enjoy people but I enjoy the quiet more than anything else. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Dec 31 18:52:18 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:52:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: Message-ID: <003701c72d36$b4afc310$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Bukowski is -- and it's one of his strengths -- extremely manipulative of his readers. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In a message dated 12/31/2006 10:21:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, duemer at gmail.com writes: Our best artists seem to understand that their art has very little to do with self expression. Bukowski is one Poet, who would disagree with you. ~Raven ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Dec 31 19:10:13 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:10:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Finding, Linda Gregg's essay Message-ID: Suzanne, et al, It's a matter of 'trying to articulate', as I said before I left the country. It's not that Linda Gregg has entirely nailed down what we need to do writing our poems (or what students need to do) but she is get at what it means to be a poet in world. Lorca's essays often operate in this way. Not specific...a stepping back and taking stock of 'irst things' Isn't most poetry a little too vested in the pyrotechnics of its saying? She wants to marvel at what the poetry is seeing. I need to go back and read Karr's essay. But I don't think it's of the same ilk as Gregg's piece. Whatever one thinks of the merits of Gregg's essay...I'd say it is 'different' from what is generally served up in any poetry class, be it 101 or advanced workshop. Finnegan In a message dated 12/19/2006 10:33:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, queenmouse at gmail.com writes: She commends a student for writing of "a mirror reflecting nothing."? Good grief, I remember the very workshop when she wrote that line in one of her poems, or maybe it was in her list of six things she noticed. And yes, I had the same reaction: it is very decorative and poetic. Its a tad satisfied with itself. Its bland. It lacks grit. Carolyn Forche called this sort of thing "the cult of the 'silent' tick"-- the tendecny for poets to skirt around difficulty by getting all breathy and empty. Here is what I wanted to get at: When you get past the vague, subjective language (and yes, I think Gregg overuses about twenty or so words in her work to the point where they really start to lose meaning-- it would be interesting to run one of her manuscripts through Word to see how many times she uses the word "sacred", for example) and examine the content, the guts as it were.... It's just not very interesting. The essay doesn't really doesn't say much beyond what is easy for the reader to agree with, and it keeps even that nice and vague. In fact I would go further to say my impression is that this essay was written to elicit agreement, approval, and the nodding of vaguely pleased heads. I would really love to see Gregg write an essay that really takes a stake in a strong idea. That eschews adjectives for a while. An essay that challenges the reader's expectations and assumptions, that takes a real aesthetic stand. An essay of aggressive vitality that throws its drink against the wall and invites disagreement. I think she is capable, but to tell you the truth, I think she is just too damned nervous as a writer. I highly recommend Mary Karr's essay "Against Decoration" if you really want to get to into the meat of these ideas. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Dec 31 19:13:15 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:13:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <003201c72c96$9a9d38e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: <004001c72d39$a217e810$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> One man's "period style" is another's "workshop poem." I understand and half-agree with Don Justice's lament, but are we really surprised that most writers in any age are mediocre and derivative? Is it really even a bad thing? In Wyatt's day, every educated male was expected to be able to toss off a sonnet -- those sonnets were that era's "workshop poem." ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Duemer To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Eliot said he would have preferred to have been able to publish anonymously. He may even have meant it. And Donald Justice wished that he had lived during a time with a "period style" that he could have adopted. Our best artists seem to understand that their art has very little to do with self expression. jd On 12/30/06, TheOldMole wrote: There's a wonderful book on jazz musicians called "But Beautiful," in which the author theorizes that Chet Baker played so beautifully, and drew such powerful emotion from his listeners, precisely because he felt nothing when he was playing. Who knows if it's true? Keats said it best, unsurprisingly: As to the poetical Character itself (I mean that sort of which, if I am any thing, I am a Member; that sort distinguished from the wordsworthian or egotistical sublime; which is a thing per se and stands alone) it is not itself - it has no self - it is every thing and nothing - It has no character - it enjoys light and shade; it lives in gusto, be it foul or fair, high or low, rich or poor, mean or elevated - It has as much delight in conceiving an Iago as an Imogen. What shocks the virtuous philosopher, delights the camelion Poet. It does no harm from its relish of the dark side of things any more than from its taste for the bright one; because they both end in speculation. A Poet is the most unpoetical of any thing in existence; because he has no Identity - he is continually in for - and filling some other Body - The Sun, the Moon, the Sea and Men and Women who are creatures of impulse are poetical and have about them an unchangeable attribute - the poet has none; no identity - he is certainly the most unpoetical of all God's Creatures. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In a message dated 12/30/2006 1:38:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, LauraHeidy at aol.com writes: I think that this may mean that people don't give a damn how the author feels Absolutely! Unfortunately, if the author feels nothing when they're writing more than likely no one else would either. They go hand and hand. ~Raven -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Dec 31 19:45:13 2006 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:45:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Influential Poets, The Five Message-ID: The Atlantic Monthly | December 2006 An Expert?s Opinion Influential Poets by Christian Wiman ..... WALT WHITMAN (1819?1892) The most influential American poet, beyond question. He was our first memoirist, our earliest Oprah (himself his only guest), our great prophet of the self. You can lay a lot of dreck at Whitman?s door, but his spirit is so large, his voice still so vital, that it?s impossible to think of him as anything but a powerful positive influence. No poet ever worked harder to project himself into the future, and no poet has ever been more successful. Many quintessentially American qualities?individualism, optimism, pluralism?find their best expression in Whitman?s poetry, and even those of us who have never read him are influenced by him. T. S. ELIOT (1888?1965) He wrenched poetry into the twentieth century and gave an entire era a language for its anxieties. His influence is on the wane among poets, or at least in a lull, which is unfortunate. Eliot?s work remains a great model for how to root real innovation and experimentation in a living tradition. It is also a reminder of the enduring pleasures of sound in poetry. But Eliot can?t vanish; his work, like Whitman?s, has entered the culture. We read him even when we don?t. WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS (1883?1963) Williams thought Eliot was a disaster for American poetry and publicly attacked ?The Waste Land.? He lost that battle but won the war. The next time you read a contemporary poem that is dominated by simple visual description, devoid of rhyme or meter, and suspiciously close to a basic prose paragraph broken up into lines, you are tasting the fruit of Williams?s influence. A good poet (though not a great one), Williams isn?t responsible for the blight of bad poetry that has followed him?but it?s hard not to blame him just a little. WALLACE STEVENS (1879?1955) As poetry retreated into the academy, Stevens emerged as the dominant figure of the twentieth century. His influence is at once very deep and very narrow. Scholars and poets know his work inside out, but many educated people haven? t even heard of him. The poems are dense, highly wrought, and full of otherworldly beauty?a necessary corrective to the Williams-esque plain style. But his work also has a hothouse, overintellectualized quality, which has endeared it to the academy and which contemporary poets would do well to purge. SYLVIA PLATH (1932?1963) Plath was Robert Lowell?s student. Her achievement, though astonishing for someone who died at thirty, is not comparable to his, but for the past fifty years her work has had more influence. She?s been a feminist icon, the high priestess of Confessionalism, and the required graveside reading for millions of undergraduate existentialists. Her overall influence has been terrible, promoting a kind of narcissistic despair that persists in many poems, novels, and movies today. That her work has survived all this ancillary frenzy, that it remains strange and original and troubling, is a testament to how good it really is. The URL for this page is _http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200612/influentials-poets_ (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200612/influentials-poets) . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Dec 31 20:10:16 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 20:10:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Influential Poets, The Five References: Message-ID: <00b901c72d41$9a230920$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I guessed the list was by a stasguard before reading it. Closed mind again, Chris? (Just kidding--I know you dind't really accuse me of that.) Winman knows as close to nothing about poetry as anyone in the field. But, of course, it IS awfully hard determining what "influential" is. Whitman may well have inspired more poetry than anyone else but more good poetry? Plath is on the list for gendrical reasons. Emily was a lot more influential, though. Winman probably never heard of Gertrude Stein. --Bob, trying to get all his 2006 crabbiness out before it's too late ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 7:45 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Influential Poets, The Five The Atlantic Monthly | December 2006 An Expert?s Opinion Influential Poets by Christian Wiman ..... WALT WHITMAN (1819?1892) The most influential American poet, beyond question. He was our first memoirist, our earliest Oprah (himself his only guest), our great prophet of the self. You can lay a lot of dreck at Whitman?s door, but his spirit is so large, his voice still so vital, that it?s impossible to think of him as anything but a powerful positive influence. No poet ever worked harder to project himself into the future, and no poet has ever been more successful. Many quintessentially American qualities?individualism, optimism, pluralism?find their best expression in Whitman?s poetry, and even those of us who have never read him are influenced by him. T. S. ELIOT (1888?1965) He wrenched poetry into the twentieth century and gave an entire era a language for its anxieties. His influence is on the wane among poets, or at least in a lull, which is unfortunate. Eliot?s work remains a great model for how to root real innovation and experimentation in a living tradition. It is also a reminder of the enduring pleasures of sound in poetry. But Eliot can?t vanish; his work, like Whitman?s, has entered the culture. We read him even when we don?t. WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS (1883?1963) Williams thought Eliot was a disaster for American poetry and publicly attacked ?The Waste Land.? He lost that battle but won the war. The next time you read a contemporary poem that is dominated by simple visual description, devoid of rhyme or meter, and suspiciously close to a basic prose paragraph broken up into lines, you are tasting the fruit of Williams?s influence. A good poet (though not a great one), Williams isn?t responsible for the blight of bad poetry that has followed him?but it?s hard not to blame him just a little. WALLACE STEVENS (1879?1955) As poetry retreated into the academy, Stevens emerged as the dominant figure of the twentieth century. His influence is at once very deep and very narrow. Scholars and poets know his work inside out, but many educated people haven?t even heard of him. The poems are dense, highly wrought, and full of otherworldly beauty?a necessary corrective to the Williams-esque plain style. But his work also has a hothouse, overintellectualized quality, which has endeared it to the academy and which contemporary poets would do well to purge. SYLVIA PLATH (1932?1963) Plath was Robert Lowell?s student. Her achievement, though astonishing for someone who died at thirty, is not comparable to his, but for the past fifty years her work has had more influence. She?s been a feminist icon, the high priestess of Confessionalism, and the required graveside reading for millions of undergraduate existentialists. Her overall influence has been terrible, promoting a kind of narcissistic despair that persists in many poems, novels, and movies today. That her work has survived all this ancillary frenzy, that it remains strange and original and troubling, is a testament to how good it really is. The URL for this page is http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200612/influentials-poets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rebuketheworld at aol.com Sun Dec 31 20:13:25 2006 From: Rebuketheworld at aol.com (Rebuketheworld at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 20:13:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings, grammaticality Message-ID: In a message dated 12/31/2006 5:56:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: "anyone lived in a pretty how town" When I read that I thought of ~ able transparent clones living in a town,lol. ~Raven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Dec 31 20:57:22 2006 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 20:57:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Influential Poets, The Five References: <00b901c72d41$9a230920$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00e401c72d48$2e86f440$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I'm trying to get two Very Important Essays written before my Christmas vacation ends, so I should not be posting this, but will, anyway. There are so many problems with assigning influentiality to any poet, it's hard to know how to make the word work. Here's one question for those who take the word to mean what stasguards mean by it, which I take to be amount of time devoted to a poet's followers in college classrooms. The question: who should be considered more influential, Smith, a poet who is the first to write poems about cows, and is follwed by a thousand mediocre poets all writing about cows, or Jones, a poet who is the first to use ink of different colors in poems and is followed by seven poets who write excellent poems doing that? Or, who is more influential, a poet like Bukowski who has influenced a huge number of poets or a poet like Stevens who has influenced a smaller number of better poets? A related question: who is the more influential poet, one who influences later poets to treat a certain subject in their poems that wasn't in poetry before him, or a poet who influences a much smaller number of poets to do something significantly new in poetry (yes, like including aesthetically-singificant graphics in them)? Or a poet who is widely but trivially influential versus one whose influence is felt by only a few but is significant. My five, by the way: Whitman, Longfellow (probably still the most influential American poet if it's a matter of number of followers), Pound, Cummings, Williams. Not counting poets in their prime after Plath (to follow Wiman's example). And with the disclaimer that this list in without Crisman-level "thinking." If I were to write about influential American poets, I'd have a longer list, and would have trouble ranking them. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 21:54:55 2006 From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:54:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? In-Reply-To: <004001c72d39$a217e810$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> References: <003201c72c96$9a9d38e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> <004001c72d39$a217e810$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: Tad, I think what Don meant or what he was gesturing toward was the desire of the artist to retreat into anonymity while at the same time showing mastery. Think of the guild apprentice in the middle ages producing his "masterpiece" -- a technical term, that -- in order to become a journeyman. How much "originality" would that masterpiece have shown? Of course this is not the middle ages & aesthetic expectations, & conventions change. I don't think Don -- the only Pulitzer Prize winner I am entitled to refer to by first name -- aspired to a period style because he wanted to write the workshop poem, so called. I think he wished for a period style because he didn't believe in bullshit. As for Wyatt, he is located very early in the sonnet tradition in English & helped establish the expectation that a gentleman would be able to toss off a sonnet. I'm not sure whether this helps or hurts your argument. Wyatt's versification, though, is rough, though wonderful, because he is still hearing the old sound of English accentual verse as he writes accentual-syllabics. Pedantic points, no doubt. But Wyatt, like Justice, is stuck between period styles, sort of like Lester Young. In any case, pal, I take exception to the very notion of the "workshop poem" as a pop-cultural cliche. -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [sharpsand.net] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Dec 31 22:18:56 2006 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:18:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? References: <003201c72c96$9a9d38e0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress><004001c72d39$a217e810$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: <006401c72d53$92a34ea0$6401a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Joe -- re Don aspiring to write the workshop poem -- good Lord, no. That wonderful and subtle man would never have meant something so simplistic. I was trying to make a different point, and sort of got distracted by a 6-year-old and a 9-year-old starting to celebrate New Year's Eve early. I don't believe that there is a "workshop poem" which has eaten our culture like some slime-beast from a science fiction movie, any more than I believe the existence in Herrick's age (yeah, not Wyatt -- I plead distraction again) of the "gentleman poet" destroyed the art or culture or poetic individualism of that age. I suspect Don's wish for a period style may also have been his way of telling us that convention need not be limiting. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Duemer To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic dialogue? Tad, I think what Don meant or what he was gesturing toward was the desire of the artist to retreat into anonymity while at the same time showing mastery. Think of the guild apprentice in the middle ages producing his "masterpiece" -- a technical term, that -- in order to become a journeyman. How much "originality" would that masterpiece have shown? Of course this is not the middle ages & aesthetic expectations, & conventions change. I don't think Don -- the only Pulitzer Prize winner I am entitled to refer to by first name -- aspired to a period style because he wanted to write the workshop poem, so called. I think he wished for a period style because he didn't believe in bullshit. As for Wyatt, he is located very early in the sonnet tradition in English & helped establish the expectation that a gentleman would be able to toss off a sonnet. I'm not sure whether this helps or hurts your argument. Wyatt's versification, though, is rough, though wonderful, because he is still hearing the old sound of English accentual verse as he writes accentual-syllabics. Pedantic points, no doubt. But Wyatt, like Justice, is stuck between period styles, sort of like Lester Young. In any case, pal, I take exception to the very notion of the "workshop poem" as a pop-cultural cliche. -- Joseph Duemer Professor of Humanities Clarkson University [ sharpsand.net] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: