From jimbehrle at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 02:18:29 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 02:18:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] from jimbehrle.com: "I Take Kent Johnson as a Lover" Message-ID: <9cf3604505083123181165c071@mail.gmail.com> I Take Kent Johnson as a Lover I dreamt I took Kent Johnson as a lover with his greasy little face catapillar and breath that smells like "Hatefuck" Axe Bodyspray, he had just returned from brushing his teeth with a toothbrush made out of the pubic hair of Forrest Gander who teaches at Brown University and I asked, "Come here often and brush your teeth? What kind of toothpaste you got there, big boy?" and Kent said, "look into my eyes," and I did, and there was no discomfort in the doing of it, except for that his breath is pure nasty and his eyes were soulless and blacker than diggleberries hanging for weeks out of the ass of Ammiel Alcalay, whoever the hell that is, like looking in a mirror at my own deep and well-loved fart-and-fuckhole, and then, at that moment, at one and the same time, tears and blood fell from Kent's beedy eyes and my rather spectacular hazel peepers, and they fell and fell, you know, *real* tears and *real* blood, and I said, "that toothpaste looks like Elliot Weinberger's semen," which was a joke, I didn't know who Elliot Weinberger is, nobody does, and Kent said "fuckin' tasty" and Kent brushed harder and harder, pubic hair and semen of his pals unable to clean his rather sullied mouth and we kept looking into each other's eyes without thought for a long time, like the way one of Kent's blogpuppets stares off into space while Kent's hand goes a-jamming up to take hold of the puppet's spine and then mouth and then suddenly they're like "Kent Johnson is important. Buy his 500 new chapbooks. We hate Frank O'Hara and all good poets!" and this time continued, me stripping down into my pink underthings, Kent refusing to believe that his breath would never again be minty fresh, brushing and brushing as teeth started popping out of his skull all of what lay before us a mixture of liquids, what has been between us and never was, and there was no fear, or sadness, but plenty of shame, the really really good kind, as you take hold of someone from behind in the restroom of some bumfuck roadside reststop, a Piggly Wiggly maybe, in the middle of nowhere where no poet should have to live, yet there were so many things, they filled the whole world, the way my massiveness filled Kent, he bucked at first, he did not think he could take it all, in fact he couldn't, I was in the parking lot reading Hoa's chapbook and he just kept on brushing, the goo in his soul bubbling up like pee & acid, it all swelled in our eyes and fell and fell, and I started thinking about being Bill Knott's lover, it helped me concentrate and get through the whole ordeal and how did he get all of that pubic hair to be the same size on the head of a toothbrush that probably took a long time and why is he brushing at a time like this, why is he always brushing, who brushes this much, it's not normal, he's been in there an awfully long time with the water running, etc, is he really brushing, all this time, when will he be finished, does he floss, too, after all this, what a crummy lay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Sep 1 04:59:16 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:59:16 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] New On PeasantBlog Message-ID: <200509010735.j817ZGbi082178@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Latest posts include--- 1. Can New Orleans Be Saved? 2. Much Ado About Nothing 3. Silliman's Baraka? 4. Songlyrics Not bout Love, Politics of The Self? 5, I Never Understood: The "Devil Rock" Thing 6. Rod Argent 7. Interview With Stephen Taylor 8. Was Walt Whitman Unethical? (response to question from CA CONRAD on the phillysound blog) 9. Show "Review": Jonathan Richman at the Make-Out Room: Poet in Performance? CONTEST: WIN a FREE CONTINUOUS PEASANT CD (or a book of poetry) WHY MTV Isn't THE PROBLEM (with an excellent comment by a woman who calls herself, "Socialism: The New Democracy") Also, an earlier post has taken on a little life of its own-- DONNA CASINGHINO On WHY People are TURNED OFF to Poetry-- has now received comments from PAM (Lu?), Heidi C. Normand and also a response to Heidi from Donna.... and an earlier response from Nick LoLordo to my piece on Creeley http://blog.myspace.com/continuouspeasant -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 1 04:53:48 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:53:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: *Ahem* References: <9cf36045050831203140181cb2@mail.gmail.com> <9cf36045050831205420283f23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20f101c5aed2$ac9bbd20$f29c9951@Robin> Dear Jim Behrle, May I ask, did you join or begin posting to New Poetry simply to take the opportunity to mount an attack on Kent Johnson (and publicise your blog in the process)? Your eleven posts, beginning on 28/8/05, with the exception of the two childishly sneering at Bill Knott, seem to be entirely consumed by this issue, and you certainly show no evidence of becoming involved in any of the other threads playing at the moment. As to 2000 people visiting your blog in 48 hours, I'll be inclined (echoing Marcus in a different context) to believe that when I see some documentary evidence. If there has been a rise in the traffic on your blog recently, I suspect this may be more to do with an interest in Kent than in your blog for itself. I may be one of that alleged 2000, though I'm not sure whether my one visit falls within that time period. I certainly don't intend to revisit, as your blog confirms my sense that most such are narcissistic, tedious, self-indulgent, and in your case childish to boot. Your latest post seems all too predictable -- I did manage to read the first couple of lines before yawning with boredom and moving on. Couldn't you do us all a favour and limit such stuff to your blog? It's, I'm informed, what they're for. If you happen to reply to this, don't expect a response from me. I don't believe in feeding trolls, so this will be the first and last time I'll acknowledge your existence. Robin Hamilton << There was some interesting stuff about the new issue of FASCICLE here: http://unquietgrave.blogspot.com/2005/08/i-probably-shouldnt-say-anything-but-i.html moving toward some of my thoughts about Kent and hoaxes and blogs. Over 2000 people have visited my weblog in the last 48 hours: that's more people than have ever read a poem of Kents. Or Bill's. Combined. Hmmm. There's a new "It's Not Easy Being Kent" up! Gotta go, my leiderhosen are in the dryer. Luv Jimmy jimbehrle.com "Always in Various Stages of Undress" >> From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 1 04:59:58 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:59:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck References: <9b1b9dab05083008274a2b4ead@mail.gmail.com><00ad01c5adb2$8388ed20$88b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab05083101006af77c2a@mail.gmail.com><000901c5ae05$43164690$4fecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin><001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> << On 8/31/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: Please adjust your heteronyms -- lots of people I might be (even Donna -- ever thought of that?)... Robin, please. Even you with all your stubborn poppycock can't claim to master the depth of bigoted ignorance that is me. :) --donna >> Bet I could give you a run for your money in the bigotry&ignorance stakes, Donna. As for instance, I think all rabbits totally without exception are evil creatures, nasty, smelly and vicious, who when the don't manage to bite you, savage with their claws. As for my ignorance, I'd have thought that was self-evident. Cheers, Robin From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 1 07:22:49 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 12:22:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck References: <9b1b9dab05083008274a2b4ead@mail.gmail.com><00ad01c5adb2$8388ed20$88b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab05083101006af77c2a@mail.gmail.com><000901c5ae05$43164690$4fecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin><001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com> <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> > As for my ignorance, I'd have thought that was self-evident. > > Thus spake an 'onest man (g) Seriously, though, Robin is also a self-confessed enemy of squirrels. I just have the one twitch myself - it's called people from Wolverhampton (actually that includes about a quarter of a million souls, so to speak, so it's quite a considerable twitch) I know this won't mean much to most on this list but the way to insult a Brummie is to say : "Are you from Wolverhampton?". This can transform a normally peaceable guy like myself into a gibbering would-be axe-murderer writhing on the floor. Frothily. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck > << > On 8/31/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Please adjust your heteronyms -- lots of people I might be (even Donna -- > ever thought of that?)... > > Robin, please. Even you with all your stubborn poppycock can't claim to > master the depth of bigoted ignorance that is me. :) > > --donna > >> > > Bet I could give you a run for your money in the bigotry&ignorance stakes, > Donna. > > As for instance, I think all rabbits totally without exception are evil > creatures, nasty, smelly and vicious, who when the don't manage to bite you, > savage with their claws. > > As for my ignorance, I'd have thought that was self-evident. > > > > Cheers, > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Sep 1 07:39:49 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:39:49 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gregg 2 References: <000001c5ae81$31d53e00$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <012001c5ae8c$a2f07810$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <009501c5aee9$dcc18450$33a93452@ANNY> And I enjoyed James Finnegan's explanation, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome L'enfer, c'est les autres. J. P. Sartre From: The Old Mole Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 2:32 AM I liked it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcus Bales To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gregg 2 > ...a poem like "Adult" is written not some much as a stand-alone entity but as a part of a meta-> narrative of a particular life.It fits with a sequence of poems composed and laid out in a book ...< Isn't this just special pleading? If you're going to call a discrete clump of words "a poem" you have to expect that people will take you at your word and take it as a poem. If it can't stand alone, if it must have its context to hold it up, why is it "a poem"? Why not call it a chapter or a stanza and let people excerpt it if they will, to emphasize its inability to stand alone? Marcus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amparker at davidson.edu Thu Sep 1 08:10:24 2005 From: amparker at davidson.edu (Parker, Alan Michael) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:10:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gregg redux Message-ID: Finnegan - Thanks for getting your hands dirty. I guess I'm still uncertain, despite your example from Gregg. When you say "We can tell by other lines in the poem that [the] poet can tell the difference between logical, descriptive rendering and a letting go," that doesn't let me read the extended sentence here as the most self-conscious or even aware maneuver, philosophically. I'm sure it's just my readerly practice out of practice, but the kinds of reading other Gregg poems ask of me don't inform my reading of this particular sentence. (And no, I'm not getting all New Critical on you, don't worry.) Not that one's intuitive maneuvers necessarily become self-conscious: or maybe they do, and that's one fancy pants way to talk about "discovery"? AMP Alan Michael Parker -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Sep 1 08:12:20 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:12:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck References: <9b1b9dab05083008274a2b4ead@mail.gmail.com><00ad01c5adb2$8388ed20$88b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab05083101006af77c2a@mail.gmail.com><000901c5ae05$43164690$4fecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin><001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> <000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> What's the story about Wolverhampton and Birmingham that results in such froth? Marcus ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bircumshaw" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck >> As for my ignorance, I'd have thought that was self-evident. >> >> > > > Thus spake an 'onest man (g) > > Seriously, though, Robin is also a self-confessed enemy of squirrels. I > just > have the one twitch myself - it's called people from Wolverhampton > (actually > that includes about a quarter of a million souls, so to speak, so it's > quite > a considerable twitch) > > I know this won't mean much to most on this list but the way to insult a > Brummie is to say : "Are you from Wolverhampton?". This can transform a > normally peaceable guy like myself into a gibbering would-be axe-murderer > writhing on the floor. Frothily. > > Best > > Dave > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin Hamilton" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:59 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck > > >> << >> On 8/31/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> Please adjust your heteronyms -- lots of people I might be (even Donna -- >> ever thought of that?)... >> >> Robin, please. Even you with all your stubborn poppycock can't claim to >> master the depth of bigoted ignorance that is me. :) >> >> --donna >> >> >> >> Bet I could give you a run for your money in the bigotry&ignorance >> stakes, >> Donna. >> >> As for instance, I think all rabbits totally without exception are evil >> creatures, nasty, smelly and vicious, who when the don't manage to bite > you, >> savage with their claws. >> >> As for my ignorance, I'd have thought that was self-evident. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Robin >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From snakecharmer at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 08:38:47 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:38:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck In-Reply-To: <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> References: <9b1b9dab05083101006af77c2a@mail.gmail.com> <000901c5ae05$43164690$4fecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin> <001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin> <001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com> <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com> Rabbits are indeed vile creatures. Ever catch a wild rabbit? They scream like you're murdering them. ::shudder:: This is why I only deal with frozen rabbits, which I feed to my lovely pet snakes. Squirrels are pretty evil too. They like to commit suicide on a particluar transformer on the roof of a building at my college. Each time we got hit by squirrel kamakazi, the network was out campus-wide for a day. I'd quote Socrates, but I even get that wrong. Something about only knowing I know nothing. ;) On 9/1/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > << > On 8/31/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Please adjust your heteronyms -- lots of people I might be (even Donna -- > ever thought of that?)... > > Robin, please. Even you with all your stubborn poppycock can't claim to > master the depth of bigoted ignorance that is me. :) > > --donna > >> > > Bet I could give you a run for your money in the bigotry&ignorance stakes, > Donna. > > As for instance, I think all rabbits totally without exception are evil > creatures, nasty, smelly and vicious, who when the don't manage to bite > you, > savage with their claws. > > As for my ignorance, I'd have thought that was self-evident. > > > > Cheers, > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 08:48:20 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:48:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whoa Message-ID: <9cf36045050901054822d0f14b@mail.gmail.com> You mean this entire list about Kent? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 09:07:09 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:07:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] This list isn't *about* Kent Johnson? Message-ID: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com> I went back and counted and the last 50,009,987,435 posts have been either about Kent Johnson "The Highlander" or about my pink underpants. Unless I hear otherwise, my posts will contain whatever the hell it is I want to add to the scintillating conversations being had: this week fake trucks!!!! And old guy poets that faked their deaths in the 1970s who know have book deals who sneer at people's blogs!!!! And British people who put the days before the month when they write the date!!! I'll start popping the popcorn *now*. Does that say new-poetry above every post? What's new for Fall 2005? Luv Jimmy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chezjewelweed at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 09:20:54 2005 From: chezjewelweed at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:20:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry pulped In-Reply-To: References: <25.66c1b353.3047b943@aol.com> Message-ID: > Or Linda Gregg's second book _Alma_; the first edition > was pulped by the publisher (Random House) before it could get > an audience, only because the editor (Jonathan Gallassi) had > left for FSG (Knott's new publisher) and could no longer > protect his poets. > Finnegan > > This is a very common occurance in publishing if your book isn't a big seller (and poetry never is-- or rather poetry sells differently than other books, and tax laws make if difficult for publishers to keep the books in stock), especially with the larger publishers. Publishers call them "orphaned books". Especially if you are publishing poetry, you had better have an editor who is going to be physically there and ready to go to bat for you. Once Gallassi left Random House, there really wasn't much he could do. At the rate that editors leave publishing houses (working conditions stink and publishing houses get bought out regularly), and taking into account tax laws (devised by Reagan) which tax publishers heavily for keeping books ("unsold merchandise") in warehouses (putting on the pressure to either sell fast or pulp), its really a wonder that anything that isn't a diet book or a lurid tell-all memoir gets published these days. A cousin of mine who is a novelist did not even make it to the pulping stage-- she got zapped before printing to make room for a memoir by Monica Lewinsky. She favors small presses now. --Suzanne Burns -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 09:54:29 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:54:29 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck In-Reply-To: <007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> References: <1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin> <001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin> <001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com> <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> <000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: They've both got crap football teams. On 9/1/05, Marcus Bales wrote: > What's the story about Wolverhampton and Birmingham that results in such > froth? > > Marcus > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Bircumshaw" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:22 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck > > > >> As for my ignorance, I'd have thought that was self-evident. > >> > >> > > > > > > Thus spake an 'onest man (g) > > > > Seriously, though, Robin is also a self-confessed enemy of squirrels. I > > just > > have the one twitch myself - it's called people from Wolverhampton > > (actually > > that includes about a quarter of a million souls, so to speak, so it's > > quite > > a considerable twitch) > > > > I know this won't mean much to most on this list but the way to insult a > > Brummie is to say : "Are you from Wolverhampton?". This can transform a > > normally peaceable guy like myself into a gibbering would-be axe-murderer > > writhing on the floor. Frothily. -- http://www.badstep.net From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 1 10:01:06 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:01:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck References: <9b1b9dab05083101006af77c2a@mail.gmail.com><000901c5ae05$43164690$4fecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin><001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin> Donna: << Rabbits are indeed vile creatures. Ever catch a wild rabbit? They scream like you're murdering them. ::shudder:: This is why I only deal with frozen rabbits, which I feed to my lovely pet snakes. >> I lived through the myxomatosis outbreak in the fifties. Much as I dislike the vile wabbity creatures, that was less than funny. My daughter had a three-legged one as a pet, that really confirmed my loathing. It would wait till nobody was looking, then lean over and nip my arm. By the time I was on my feet spitting with fury, it would be back on its haunches looking sweet and innocent, and everyone who'd turned round to see what the fuss was about assumed I was an incipient serial rabbit killer. Right devious wee bugger it was. << Squirrels are pretty evil too. They like to commit suicide on a particluar transformer on the roof of a building at my college. Each time we got hit by squirrel kamakazi, the network was out campus-wide for a day. >> I don't mind the aboriginal (to the UK) red squirrels, it's the grey tree rats that I think were originally imported from America that I dislike. I especially dislike the ones who tramp around my loft in Doc Martins at four in the morning, You wouldn't *believe* the amount of noise they can generate. << I'd quote Socrates, but I even get that wrong. Something about only knowing I know nothing. ;) >> Something like, "I'm a dumb shit. You're a dumb shit. The only difference is I know it." Ever come on Soren Kierkegaard's +The Concept of Irony with Constant Reference to Socrates+? It's cool, takes in Plato, Xenophon, and Aristophanes. SK plumps for "The Clouds" as easily the best picture of the "real" Socrates. (Gotta get a bit of stubborn poppycock in somewhere.) Robin From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Sep 1 10:27:29 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:27:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton References: <1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin><001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Ok, let's start from the beginning: how do you even SAY "Wolverhampton"? Or "Birmingham", for that matter, if "Brummie" is derived from it? Marcus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck > They've both got crap football teams. > > On 9/1/05, Marcus Bales wrote: >> What's the story about Wolverhampton and Birmingham that results in such >> froth? >> >> Marcus >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "David Bircumshaw" >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" >> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck >> >> >> >> As for my ignorance, I'd have thought that was self-evident. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > Thus spake an 'onest man (g) >> > >> > Seriously, though, Robin is also a self-confessed enemy of squirrels. I >> > just >> > have the one twitch myself - it's called people from Wolverhampton >> > (actually >> > that includes about a quarter of a million souls, so to speak, so it's >> > quite >> > a considerable twitch) >> > >> > I know this won't mean much to most on this list but the way to insult >> > a >> > Brummie is to say : "Are you from Wolverhampton?". This can transform a >> > normally peaceable guy like myself into a gibbering would-be >> > axe-murderer >> > writhing on the floor. Frothily. > > -- > http://www.badstep.net > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From snakecharmer at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 11:59:22 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:59:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck In-Reply-To: <21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin> References: <1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin> <001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin> <001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com> <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com> <21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <33abf27505090108597ba3f910@mail.gmail.com> I don't care if people think bunnies are cute and fluffy. They're rodents. Like all other rodents, their only purpose in life is to keep a steady food supply for predators. You think the grey tree rats are bad? We've got a subspecies of black squirrels that are evil twisted cousins to the grey ones. These things are aggressive as hell and ten times as destructive. They're the kind of critter that, if they were human, they'd be akin to the creepy second cousin you wouldn't trust around your kids or pets unsupervised. Never thought I'd be a racist, but yeah--the black ones are horrible, give me grey anyday. :) On 9/1/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Donna: > > << > Rabbits are indeed vile creatures. Ever catch a wild rabbit? They scream > like you're murdering them. ::shudder:: > > This is why I only deal with frozen rabbits, which I feed to my lovely pet > snakes. > >> > > I lived through the myxomatosis outbreak in the fifties. Much as I dislike > the vile wabbity creatures, that was less than funny. My daughter had a > three-legged one as a pet, that really confirmed my loathing. It would > wait > till nobody was looking, then lean over and nip my arm. By the time I was > on my feet spitting with fury, it would be back on its haunches looking > sweet and innocent, and everyone who'd turned round to see what the fuss > was > about assumed I was an incipient serial rabbit killer. Right devious wee > bugger it was. > > << > Squirrels are pretty evil too. They like to commit suicide on a particluar > transformer on the roof of a building at my college. Each time we got hit > by > squirrel kamakazi, the network was out campus-wide for a day. > >> > > I don't mind the aboriginal (to the UK) red squirrels, it's the grey tree > rats that I think were originally imported from America that I dislike. > > I especially dislike the ones who tramp around my loft in Doc Martins at > four in the morning, You wouldn't *believe* the amount of noise they can > generate. > > << > I'd quote Socrates, but I even get that wrong. Something about only > knowing > I know nothing. ;) > >> > > Something like, "I'm a dumb shit. You're a dumb shit. The only difference > is I know it." > > Ever come on Soren Kierkegaard's +The Concept of Irony with Constant > Reference to Socrates+? It's cool, takes in Plato, Xenophon, and > Aristophanes. SK plumps for "The Clouds" as easily the best picture of the > "real" Socrates. > > (Gotta get a bit of stubborn poppycock in somewhere.) > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 12:22:42 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:22:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton In-Reply-To: <00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> References: <1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin> <001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com> <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> <000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: Wool - ver- hamp- ton where the l and the v run together. Probably roll the r if you said it in a brummie accent. Birmingham: bear min hum You get laughed at if you pronounce the ending like "Ham". Yes, I know it's *spelt* that way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brum Then again, I've got a Westcountry accent so I can't be a reliable guide. Of course I shall now be run out of town for daring to teach northerners to suck eggs :-) R On 9/1/05, Marcus Bales wrote: > Ok, let's start from the beginning: how do you even SAY "Wolverhampton"? > > Or "Birmingham", for that matter, if "Brummie" is derived from it? > > Marcus > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Day" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:54 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck > > > > They've both got crap football teams. > > > > On 9/1/05, Marcus Bales wrote: > >> What's the story about Wolverhampton and Birmingham that results in such > >> froth? > >> > >> Marcus > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "David Bircumshaw" > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > >> > >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:22 AM > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck > >> > >> > >> >> As for my ignorance, I'd have thought that was self-evident. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Thus spake an 'onest man (g) > >> > > >> > Seriously, though, Robin is also a self-confessed enemy of squirrels. I > >> > just > >> > have the one twitch myself - it's called people from Wolverhampton > >> > (actually > >> > that includes about a quarter of a million souls, so to speak, so it's > >> > quite > >> > a considerable twitch) > >> > > >> > I know this won't mean much to most on this list but the way to insult > >> > a > >> > Brummie is to say : "Are you from Wolverhampton?". This can transform a > >> > normally peaceable guy like myself into a gibbering would-be > >> > axe-murderer > >> > writhing on the floor. Frothily. > > > > -- > > http://www.badstep.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- http://www.badstep.net From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 1 12:28:44 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:28:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck References: <1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin><001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com><21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505090108597ba3f910@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <223a01c5af12$39d3a150$f29c9951@Robin> << I don't care if people think bunnies are cute and fluffy. They're rodents. Like all other rodents, their only purpose in life is to keep a steady food supply for predators. >> Actually, Donna, I hate to pull you up once more, but I find the above remark Deeply Offensive. Rabbits aren't rodents. Rodents are cute, rabbits aren't. I quote (virtually at random) from the Web: " (Incidentally, the Rodentia does not include rabbits; rabbits differ from rodents in having an extra pair of incisors and in other skeletal features. Rabbits, hares, and a few other species make up the Lagomorpha. Shrews, moles and hedgehogs are also not rodents; they are classified in the Insectivora.)" http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/mammal/rodentia/rodentia.html Rats, at least the variety bred for generations as pets, are endearing creatures with whom it is possible to hold an intelligent conversation, a thing impossible with a viscoos Bunny. Rodents are nice. Admittedly, male mice have three disadvantages compared with female mice -- they pong, they're thick as five planks, and they have weak bladders, as anyone who's cupped one in their hand knows. Hamsters are rather deficient in the tail department but have the advantage (from a parent's point-of-view) that they have a short life span, so you're not left holding the rodent when the kids leave for college. I speak here from experience -- if you want the real low down, ask dave bircumshaw about The Rodent Mausoleum in the Garage. << You think the grey tree rats are bad? We've got a subspecies of black squirrels that are evil twisted cousins to the grey ones. These things are aggressive as hell and ten times as destructive. They're the kind of critter that, if they were human, they'd be akin to the creepy second cousin you wouldn't trust around your kids or pets unsupervised. Never thought I'd be a racist, but yeah--the black ones are horrible, give me grey anyday. :) >> Oh jeezus, if they're worse than the greys, please keep them on your side of the Pond. Robin the Universal Rodent From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 1 12:40:01 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:40:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton References: <1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <224301c5af13$cd3d1920$f29c9951@Robin> > Wool - ver- hamp- ton wool-vir-ham-tn > where the l and the v run together. Probably roll the r if you said it > in a brummie accent. > > Birmingham: > > bear min hum bir-mn-hm God, Roger, dave's going to gut you over this. Robin St John Hamilton not from Worcester nor Lie-cess-tur > You get laughed at if you pronounce the ending like "Ham". Yes, I know > it's *spelt* that way. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brum > > Then again, I've got a Westcountry accent so I can't be a reliable > guide. Of course I shall now be run out of town for daring to teach > northerners to suck eggs :-) > > R > > On 9/1/05, Marcus Bales wrote: > > Ok, let's start from the beginning: how do you even SAY "Wolverhampton"? > > > > Or "Birmingham", for that matter, if "Brummie" is derived from it? > > > > Marcus From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 1 12:48:46 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:48:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton References: <1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin><001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <005e01c5af15$05db9da0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Yeah, they've both got crap football teams! Actually it's just a matter of innate mutual local hostility. As for pronunciation: 'woolverhamton' and 'bermingam', the latter unlike the US 'birmingHam'. Brummie is a contraction of Brummagem one of the various forms of the city's name (Bromwycham) Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton > Ok, let's start from the beginning: how do you even SAY "Wolverhampton"? > > Or "Birmingham", for that matter, if "Brummie" is derived from it? > > Marcus > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Day" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:54 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck > > > > They've both got crap football teams. > > > > On 9/1/05, Marcus Bales wrote: > >> What's the story about Wolverhampton and Birmingham that results in such > >> froth? > >> > >> Marcus > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "David Bircumshaw" > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > >> > >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:22 AM > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck > >> > >> > >> >> As for my ignorance, I'd have thought that was self-evident. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Thus spake an 'onest man (g) > >> > > >> > Seriously, though, Robin is also a self-confessed enemy of squirrels. I > >> > just > >> > have the one twitch myself - it's called people from Wolverhampton > >> > (actually > >> > that includes about a quarter of a million souls, so to speak, so it's > >> > quite > >> > a considerable twitch) > >> > > >> > I know this won't mean much to most on this list but the way to insult > >> > a > >> > Brummie is to say : "Are you from Wolverhampton?". This can transform a > >> > normally peaceable guy like myself into a gibbering would-be > >> > axe-murderer > >> > writhing on the floor. Frothily. > > > > -- > > http://www.badstep.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 1 12:55:32 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:55:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton References: <1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin><001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <005e01c5af15$05db9da0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <225701c5af15$f80490f0$f29c9951@Robin> dave said: > Yeah, they've both got crap football teams! Watch you language U2 -- it's known as soccer across the Pond. To Americans, "football" signifies rugby in armour and shoulder-pads. Robin > > From: "Roger Day" > > > They've both got crap football teams. From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 1 13:23:50 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 18:23:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton References: <1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin><001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><005e01c5af15$05db9da0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <225701c5af15$f80490f0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <007101c5af19$ef2bde80$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Indeedy deed. Always struck me as odd that the Americans should have a penchant for 19th century British public school slang: 'soccer' (contraction of 'association') deriving from its opposition to 'rugger'. best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton > dave said: > > > Yeah, they've both got crap football teams! > > Watch you language U2 -- it's known as soccer across the Pond. To > Americans, "football" signifies rugby in armour and shoulder-pads. > > Robin > > > > From: "Roger Day" > > > > > They've both got crap football teams. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 1 13:48:47 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 18:48:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton References: <1baf01c5ae12$52bbf060$f29c9951@Robin><001501c5ae1c$3581bf20$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><005e01c5af15$05db9da0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><225701c5af15$f80490f0$f29c9951@Robin> <007101c5af19$ef2bde80$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <226701c5af1d$6980faa0$f29c9951@Robin> > Indeedy deed. Always struck me as odd that the Americans should have a > penchant for 19th century British public school slang: 'soccer' (contraction > of 'association') deriving from its opposition to 'rugger'. > > best > > Dave Right. Cascade this. Football was/is the generic term, and what's now called soccer the earlier game. Rugby emerged when a typical upper-class over-priviledged twit at Rugby public school (was Thomas Arnold headmaster at the time?) picked up the ball and ran for the goal. Therefrom you get the distinction, still cis-Atlantic, between Association football (soccer) and Rugby football. (And let's not go into the distinction between Rugby Union and Rugby League, that's about as bad as the off-side rule in soccer.) Our transatlantic cousins adopted the public school version, dressed the teams in iron, and franchised the sport. The Scots, naturally, invented both football and golf, and this turned on the relative size of a Viking and an English head. The Vikings had the bigger heads, so your Scottish sportsman just naturally kicked a Viking head around the parish. The only thing you could do with a pinhead English one was belt it with a stick down the nearest rabbit hole. Thus golf. All true, I kid you not. Deacon Brodie From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Thu Sep 1 14:14:38 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:14:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New St. Thomasino Poems Online at Nthposition Message-ID: <200509011814.j81IEc2E016758@mail22.atl.registeredsite.com> . Two new poems, "Aver" and "Rudiments," online at Nthposition, edited by Todd Swift. . http://www.nthposition.com/avernbsp.php . Oh, go on, you know you wanna see 'em. . -- Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino . http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ . From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Sep 1 15:26:31 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:26:31 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] E.G. Burrows Message-ID: <00b201c5af2b$0f6837f0$35eb3652@ANNY> Camping Out I watched the nesting redstart when we camped by Lake Winnepesaukee. The tent pegs pulled out in soft soil. Rain made pawprints on the canvas. So much clings to the shoes, the old shoes must be discarded, but we're fools to think that does it: burning the scraps. I listened for the rain at Mt. Monadnock, for the barred owl on a tent peak among scrub pines in Michigan. I can hear my father stir and the cot creak. The flap opens. He goes out and never returns though the coffee steams on the grill and the redstart sings in the alders. E.G. Burrows Reprinted from "Passager," 2001 _____________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome L'enfer, c'est les autres. J. P. 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URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 15:59:43 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:59:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck In-Reply-To: <223a01c5af12$39d3a150$f29c9951@Robin> References: <1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin> <001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com> <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com> <21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505090108597ba3f910@mail.gmail.com> <223a01c5af12$39d3a150$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <33abf27505090112592f710674@mail.gmail.com> Robin: Ok, technically they're lagomorphs, and it says here: "Originally classified with rodents because of their gnawing incisors, and superficially looking and acting like rodents, DNA puts lagomorphs closer to ungulates than to rodents." from http://www.chaffeezoo.org/animals/rabbit.html I'm not wrong--they changed the facts. Which means I'm just old-fashioned and out of date. And I'd appreciate it if you young whippersnappers would stop bringin your new-fangled ideas to the table and messing up my memory. Yes, rats (pet variety) are intelligent and endearing creatures. But it still doesn't change the fact that the species as a whole is vermin. Rats, mice, rabbits--they're all in my freezer back home, so that just makes them furry porkchops to me. Remind me to start using black squirrels as terrorist weapons. Canada sent us their damn geese and we can't get rid of em. Maybe it's time to start lobbing black squirrels over the wall in retaliation. And I find it funny that you take Deep Offense at me lumping rabbits and rats together, but you didn't comment at all on my black-versus-light squirrel comment. What's the point of being a bigot if nobody notices? On 9/1/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > << > I don't care if people think bunnies are cute and fluffy. They're rodents. > Like all other rodents, their only purpose in life is to keep a steady > food > supply for predators. > >> > > Actually, Donna, I hate to pull you up once more, but I find the above > remark Deeply Offensive. Rabbits aren't rodents. Rodents are cute, rabbits > aren't. > > I quote (virtually at random) from the Web: > > " (Incidentally, the Rodentia does not include rabbits; rabbits differ > from > rodents in having an extra pair of incisors and in other skeletal > features. > Rabbits, hares, and a few other species make up the Lagomorpha. Shrews, > moles and hedgehogs are also not rodents; they are classified in the > Insectivora.)" > > http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/mammal/rodentia/rodentia.html > > Rats, at least the variety bred for generations as pets, are endearing > creatures with whom it is possible to hold an intelligent conversation, a > thing impossible with a viscoos Bunny. Rodents are nice. Admittedly, male > mice have three disadvantages compared with female mice -- they pong, > they're thick as five planks, and they have weak bladders, as anyone who's > cupped one in their hand knows. Hamsters are rather deficient in the tail > department but have the advantage (from a parent's point-of-view) that > they > have a short life span, so you're not left holding the rodent when the > kids > leave for college. > > I speak here from experience -- if you want the real low down, ask dave > bircumshaw about The Rodent Mausoleum in the Garage. > > << > You think the grey tree rats are bad? We've got a subspecies of black > squirrels that are evil twisted cousins to the grey ones. These things are > aggressive as hell and ten times as destructive. They're the kind of > critter > that, if they were human, they'd be akin to the creepy second cousin you > wouldn't trust around your kids or pets unsupervised. > > Never thought I'd be a racist, but yeah--the black ones are horrible, give > me grey anyday. :) > >> > > Oh jeezus, if they're worse than the greys, please keep them on your side > of > the Pond. > > Robin the Universal Rodent > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 1 17:40:52 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:40:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck References: <1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com><21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090108597ba3f910@mail.gmail.com><223a01c5af12$39d3a150$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505090112592f710674@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <230e01c5af3d$d452f700$f29c9951@Robin> Donna: << I'm not wrong--they changed the facts. Which means I'm just old-fashioned and out of date. And I'd appreciate it if you young whippersnappers would stop bringin your new-fangled ideas to the table and messing up my memory. >> You'll tell me next that you believe in Intelligent Design. << Yes, rats (pet variety) are intelligent and endearing creatures. But it still doesn't change the fact that the species as a whole is vermin. >> "vermin" is an ideologically loaded and semantically null term. << Rats, mice, rabbits--they're all in my freezer back home, so that just makes them furry porkchops to me. >> The only good rabbit is a pair of gloves or a hat -- re-stock your freezer. << Remind me to start using black squirrels as terrorist weapons. Canada sent us their damn geese and we can't get rid of em. Maybe it's time to start lobbing black squirrels over the wall in retaliation. >> Yay, let's hear it for the Scottish Liberation Fraction. << And I find it funny that you take Deep Offense at me lumping rabbits and rats together, but you didn't comment at all on my black-versus-light squirrel comment. What's the point of being a bigot if nobody notices? >> You're younger than me -- actually, you're only four years older than my daughter and the same age as Darling Only. Bit weird that, really, if you think on it. :-( And as to how I don't seem to be able to send you The Truth About Mike Anderson. ... lor' I think the CIA have my number. {Doing my brains in, that is.} Look, it really *was* a total accident the year I joined the SWP. Honest. Really. Robin. I don't do cyberstalking, but I get curious. Like, what was the colour of of Laura Bohannan's hair in Oxford in the fifties? She was a readhead, and half way between Loughborough and Leicester my ex-wife said to me, "Shite, if you put that amount of effort into tracking UK serial killers, you could actually do the world a favour." ... jus' a thot ... Slipper of the Tardis From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Sep 1 20:14:34 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 20:14:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen Truck (to Bill Knott) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457a83f5e7d42a48f6d1eb98899ea752@earthlink.net> Hmm, for some reason, this whole thing about stolen poetry books reminds me of George Costanza's line on the late, lamented Seinfeld show: "Why would a poet need an unlisted telephone number?" Cheers to you, KJ. And condolences, of course. Hal On Aug 31, 2005, at 6:56 PM, Kent Johnson wrote: > Bill Knott said, > >> at least kent, unlike some of the snipes on this > forum, has published books which can actually > be stolen as opposed to being downloaded > from nepotistic blogs. . . > if this list was limited to actual poets, poets > who are actually getting their work published in > real magazines or in book form, kent would > legitimately be on it, but how many of you > others would. . .< > > > Bill, Our Ever Living Poet, I will be sending you a complementary copy > of the first folio of Adventures in Poetry Blogland, a booke (90 pp.!) > which hath, as leading characatures, Diverfe Blogginge Perfonages inne > Varioufe and Illkinde Stages of Undreffe. There are astonishing > pictures, too. > > (IF, that is, the publisher is able to recover from the financial > losses of the stolen truck. The police [actually not the Boston police, > as this is in jurisdiction of an outlying community] are now pursuing > unfolding leads, I hear. Other clues, it turns out, were left in the > cab. But more as I find things out... My hope is that the case will be > solved and I will be able to include discussion of it in Adventures, > when the book is released in October. I hope it is released before I go > to Chile for a month... though come to think of it, maybe it's best if > I > go to Chile right as it comes out!). > > I do feel the need to say, though, disagreeing just a bit, that there > certainly are plenty of legitimate poets on this list. I publish quite > a > bit, it's true (my biggest chapbook to date, actually, Epigramititis: > 111 Living American Poets, at 250 pp. is coming out in November, right > after Adventures, and right after that, another chapbook, the second > Jaime Saenz, is coming out from Princeton UP), but the truth is, why > not > just come out and say it, that everything I publish has some relation > to, as you term it, "Nepotism," inasmuch as I invariably know the > magazine or press editor(s) in some way or form and am very able, > believe me, at manipulating my relationship with him or her or them so > as to secure publication after publication (through sickest flattery, > basest barter, flagrantest cash payment, the profferest of physical > favors pertaining to all sexual preferences, or should none of these > work, outrightest threat), thus enraging pathetically adolescent > cartoonists in lederhosen to such an extent that they fly into > extravagant pole dances of free publicity on behalf of my poesies. Just > wait and see, for example, what happens in the next 24 hours... > > Well, we all do what we can. > > My son is safely in London. Thank you for your prayers, everyone. He > wrote me an email this morning, from the Heatherbush Pub, in Hampstead. > It's in a little alley, pouring pints since the 17th century, very hard > to find, but find it he did. I guess the drinking age in England is > eighteen. > > The book will be on its way, Bill. > > Kent > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Hal Today's Special: Images w/o words http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From snakecharmer at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 21:17:16 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:17:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck In-Reply-To: <33abf27505090118164860320a@mail.gmail.com> References: <33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com> <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com> <21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505090108597ba3f910@mail.gmail.com> <223a01c5af12$39d3a150$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505090112592f710674@mail.gmail.com> <230e01c5af3d$d452f700$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505090118164860320a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33abf27505090118175dfbeb03@mail.gmail.com> ::chuckle:: I'm ornery, Robin, but I'm not insane. You better take back that Intelligent Design statement. Unless of course you're mocking my choice of hair color. My then-13-year-old nephew mocked me when I went from natural blond to fake red. Boy called me Artificial Intelligence. How's that for respecting your elders? And speaking of elders, whose bedcovers did you peek under that you know how old I am? :) Physical age is irrelevant--it's all in the mind. And I'm looking forward to the day I become the scary old cat lady down the block. Maybe the neighborhood kids will think I'm a witch. But you have to admit, using non-native species as tactical weapons is a good idea. Too bad we'd all lose against Australia. I don't think there's a native species there that can't poison you, bite you in half, or kick the crap out of you in two seconds. I'd take Scotland and their greatly-feared midgies anyday. I was there two weeks and not a single little bite! On 9/1/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Donna: > > << > I'm not wrong--they changed the facts. Which means I'm just old-fashioned > and out of date. And I'd appreciate it if you young whippersnappers would > stop bringin your new-fangled ideas to the table and messing up my memory. > > >> > > You'll tell me next that you believe in Intelligent Design. > > << > Yes, rats (pet variety) are intelligent and endearing creatures. But it > still doesn't change the fact that the species as a whole is vermin. > >> > > "vermin" is an ideologically loaded and semantically null term. > > << > Rats, mice, rabbits--they're all in my freezer back home, so that just > makes > them furry porkchops to me. > >> > > The only good rabbit is a pair of gloves or a hat -- re-stock your > freezer. > > << > Remind me to start using black squirrels as terrorist weapons. Canada sent > us their damn geese and we can't get rid of em. Maybe it's time to start > lobbing black squirrels over the wall in retaliation. > >> > > Yay, let's hear it for the Scottish Liberation Fraction. > > << > And I find it funny that you take Deep Offense at me lumping rabbits and > rats together, but you didn't comment at all on my black-versus-light > squirrel comment. What's the point of being a bigot if nobody notices? > >> > > You're younger than me -- actually, you're only four years older than my > daughter and the same age as Darling Only. > > Bit weird that, really, if you think on it. > > :-( > > And as to how I don't seem to be able to send you The Truth About Mike > Anderson. ... lor' I think the CIA have my number. > > {Doing my brains in, that is.} > > Look, it really *was* a total accident the year I joined the SWP. > > Honest. Really. Robin. > > I don't do cyberstalking, but I get curious. Like, what was the colour of > of Laura Bohannan's hair in Oxford in the fifties? > > She was a readhead, and half way between Loughborough and Leicester my > ex-wife said to me, "Shite, if you put that amount of effort into tracking > UK serial killers, you could actually do the world a favour." > > ... jus' a thot ... > > Slipper of the Tardis > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 21:24:33 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:24:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton In-Reply-To: <226701c5af1d$6980faa0$f29c9951@Robin> References: <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> <000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <005e01c5af15$05db9da0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <225701c5af15$f80490f0$f29c9951@Robin> <007101c5af19$ef2bde80$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <226701c5af1d$6980faa0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <33abf27505090118242a2fe96b@mail.gmail.com> On 9/1/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: The only thing you could do with a pinhead English one was belt it with a stick down the nearest rabbit hole. Thus golf. Aha! You just proved that rabbits are useful after all, and from this it can be assumed that they should not be shunned and hated. Caught in your own contradiction! NOW how do you explain yourself? On 9/1/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > > Indeedy deed. Always struck me as odd that the Americans should have a > > penchant for 19th century British public school slang: 'soccer' > (contraction > > of 'association') deriving from its opposition to 'rugger'. > > > > best > > > > Dave > > Right. Cascade this. > > Football was/is the generic term, and what's now called soccer the earlier > game. > > Rugby emerged when a typical upper-class over-priviledged twit at Rugby > public school (was Thomas Arnold headmaster at the time?) picked up the > ball > and ran for the goal. > > Therefrom you get the distinction, still cis-Atlantic, between Association > football (soccer) and Rugby football. (And let's not go into the > distinction > between Rugby Union and Rugby League, that's about as bad as the off-side > rule in soccer.) > > Our transatlantic cousins adopted the public school version, dressed the > teams in iron, and franchised the sport. > > The Scots, naturally, invented both football and golf, and this turned on > the relative size of a Viking and an English head. The Vikings had the > bigger heads, so your Scottish sportsman just naturally kicked a Viking > head > around the parish. The only thing you could do with a pinhead English one > was belt it with a stick down the nearest rabbit hole. Thus golf. > > All true, I kid you not. > > Deacon Brodie > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 2 03:01:06 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:01:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton References: <1e7701c5ae52$ed45c0d0$f29c9951@Robin><001301c5ae6c$c6847e40$e5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <224301c5af13$cd3d1920$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <002301c5af8c$28aac690$16e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> > God, Roger, dave's going to gut you over this. I should have said, Rob, that I'm certainly not going to gut Roger as the version of the pronunciation of 'Birmingham' he gives is also valid. Like the name of place, which historically had in excess of 20 spellings, the pronunciation has certainly instabilities, for instance some will articulate the 'g' in 'ming', some not. Likewise the final syllable varies between an 'am' and an 'um' or just 'm', while the first syllable goes between short: 'bear' to long :'bear'. But has has been said - never "HAM' at the last, unlike Birmingham, Alabama. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton > > Wool - ver- hamp- ton > > wool-vir-ham-tn > > > where the l and the v run together. Probably roll the r if you said it > > in a brummie accent. > > > > Birmingham: > > > > bear min hum > > bir-mn-hm > > God, Roger, dave's going to gut you over this. > > > > Robin St John Hamilton not from Worcester nor Lie-cess-tur > > > You get laughed at if you pronounce the ending like "Ham". Yes, I know > > it's *spelt* that way. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brum > > > > Then again, I've got a Westcountry accent so I can't be a reliable > > guide. Of course I shall now be run out of town for daring to teach > > northerners to suck eggs :-) > > > > R > > > > On 9/1/05, Marcus Bales wrote: > > > Ok, let's start from the beginning: how do you even SAY "Wolverhampton"? > > > > > > Or "Birmingham", for that matter, if "Brummie" is derived from it? > > > > > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 2 06:14:29 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 11:14:29 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif References: <200508312251.j7VMpsiT031022@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <001201c5afa7$1bc016e0$04e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Mark The Crime MotifI'll be quite honest and say that I really don't know what to make of this whole issue: my reactions vary and veer between puzzled amusement to outbreaks of anger, for which latter I reproach myself. The real problem, I suspect, is that the tactics that Kent and some his partners employ generate uncertainty in an environment - the cybernetic world - that is highly dependent on trust and rife with the seeds of paranoia. I, for instance, incline towards the belief that Kent is who he says he is, however that supposition depends upon (an implied contract of) trust. Brit though I be, I'm not unaware that, say, 'Kent Johnson' is, in American usage, also a name comparable to John Doe, I even came across, a whilke back, a description of a "Kent Johnson' project run by a US university, which was to simulate a human personality cybernetically, a la Turing test. So one is always slightly unsure whether one is being had. It has to observed that the primary preoccupation of the Kent posts is with literary hierarchies and obtaining recognition, this sits very ill with declared interest in non-egotistic presentation of the 'mythical' self. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: ELEMENOPE Productions To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 3:53 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif Notice how RadLib writers seek censorship when their views are challenged and reach for the guillotine as soon as they hold the gavel (Hugo Chavez the current model). Put a collective hand up in front of those faces they don't fit the program. "Judge Clarence Thomas: right color, wrong mind, we'll accuse him of sexism." (I await this "Kent Johnson" to imply that I'm a racist for trying to explain, since I know the truth, and he doesn't, the aitiologia of Lyndy England's downfall.) The grifter/conman uses multiple techniques to get what he wants: he wants you to drop your disbelief and buy so that this "Kent Johnson" can keep the 3-Card Monte game going In this case, the grift has multiple moves: the invocation of pedantry as a technique of oneupsmanship; the ridiculous "theft" intended to create a buzz and maybe a legend (notice how this "Kent Johnson" puts detectives on a wild goose chase: he doesn't disclose any real fact, when Mr. Bales' sharp question is posed about what cop is handling the case, the answer: somewhere outside of Boston proper in an unknown municipality. Oh, tell. I, Fellow in Poetry for The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, used to work for Regal Cab of Harvard Square, Mr. Bill "Eminence Grise" Knott, and know Boston as well as Plympton St.); the public presentation of a gift to a supporter (the throwing of a bone); and of course the adventure of the "son." A little truth in a pack of lies shaken and stirred makes a fine, redolent grift. Just as long as this "Kent Johnson" doesn't sell real estate, stocks or drugs, he'll do very well. Apparently, he's cleverer than his "son", off to a madrassas or nirvana training facility by way of an English pub (?) (The son can find the pub but we can't find the police station.) who just got out of jail. For what? Truck rustling banditry? Or for not following his Dad's explicit instructions in some other unnamed con? And that bit about the "prayers." Hey, Buddhists with whom I study don't believe in God! If you believe and they believe in you then they might believe in God.. But, then, that leads us back to the problem of what to believe when confronted with this "Kent Johnson." R i c h a r d D i l l o n At 06:51 PM -0400 8/31/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: Message: 19 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:56:48 -0500 From: "Kent Johnson" Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen Truck (to Bill Knott) To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Bill Knott said, >at least kent, unlike some of the snipes on this forum, has published books which can actually be stolen as opposed to being downloaded from nepotistic blogs. . . if this list was limited to actual poets, poets who are actually getting their work published in real magazines or in book form, kent would legitimately be on it, but how many of you others would. . .< Bill, Our Ever Living Poet, I will be sending you a complementary copy of the first folio of Adventures in Poetry Blogland, a booke (90 pp.!) which hath, as leading characatures, Diverfe Blogginge Perfonages inne Varioufe and Illkinde Stages of Undreffe. There are astonishing pictures, too. (IF, that is, the publisher is able to recover from the financial losses of the stolen truck. The police [actually not the Boston police, as this is in jurisdiction of an outlying community] are now pursuing unfolding leads, I hear. Other clues, it turns out, were left in the cab. But more as I find things out... My hope is that the case will be solved and I will be able to include discussion of it in Adventures, when the book is released in October. I hope it is released before I go to Chile for a month... though come to think of it, maybe it's best if I go to Chile right as it comes out!). I do feel the need to say, though, disagreeing just a bit, that there certainly are plenty of legitimate poets on this list. I publish quite a bit, it's true (my biggest chapbook to date, actually, Epigramititis: 111 Living American Poets, at 250 pp. is coming out in November, right after Adventures, and right after that, another chapbook, the second Jaime Saenz, is coming out from Princeton UP), but the truth is, why not just come out and say it, that everything I publish has some relation to, as you term it, "Nepotism," inasmuch as I invariably know the magazine or press editor(s) in some way or form and am very able, believe me, at manipulating my relationship with him or her or them so as to secure publication after publication (through sickest flattery, basest barter, flagrantest cash payment, the profferest of physical favors pertaining to all sexual preferences, or should none of these work, outrightest threat), thus enraging pathetically adolescent cartoonists in lederhosen to such an extent that they fly into extravagant pole dances of free publicity on behalf of my poesies. Just wait and see, for example, what happens in the next 24 hours... Well, we all do what we can. What a joke. A very good one, that. My son is safely in London. Thank you for your prayers, everyone. He wrote me an email this morning, from the Heatherbush Pub, in Hampstead. It's in a little alley, pouring pints since the 17th century, very hard to find, but find it he did. I guess the drinking age in England is eighteen. The book will be on its way, Bill. Kent -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Sep 2 06:38:56 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 06:38:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen Truck (to Bill Knott) References: <457a83f5e7d42a48f6d1eb98899ea752@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00e301c5afaa$a952bc80$c57ba8c0@Marcusnb> Halvard Johnson wrote: > Hmm, for some reason, this whole thing about > stolen poetry books reminds me of George > Costanza's line on the late, lamented Seinfeld > show: "Why would a poet need an unlisted > telephone number?" > Cheers to you, KJ. And condolences, of course. Cheers for hoaxing and condolences for being caught at it? Marcus From rog3r.day at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 07:29:15 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:29:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton In-Reply-To: <224301c5af13$cd3d1920$f29c9951@Robin> References: <1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com> <210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin> <000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <224301c5af13$cd3d1920$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: Now my handsome, if I sez it too offen, it all zoundz th'same, like them strange northern foks. Uncle Tom Cobbley On 9/1/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Wool - ver- hamp- ton > > wool-vir-ham-tn > > > where the l and the v run together. Probably roll the r if you said it > > in a brummie accent. > > > > Birmingham: > > > > bear min hum > > bir-mn-hm > > God, Roger, dave's going to gut you over this. > > > > Robin St John Hamilton not from Worcester nor Lie-cess-tur > > > You get laughed at if you pronounce the ending like "Ham". Yes, I know > > it's *spelt* that way. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brum > > > > Then again, I've got a Westcountry accent so I can't be a reliable > > guide. Of course I shall now be run out of town for daring to teach > > northerners to suck eggs :-) > > > > R > > > > On 9/1/05, Marcus Bales wrote: > > > Ok, let's start from the beginning: how do you even SAY "Wolverhampton"? > > > > > > Or "Birmingham", for that matter, if "Brummie" is derived from it? > > > > > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- http://www.badstep.net From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Sep 2 07:49:19 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:49:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton References: <1efe01c5ae70$bd0aa9d0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><000801c5aee7$7cba26e0$e9ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007401c5aeee$d5d3e390$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><00c001c5af01$4c076bb0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><224301c5af13$cd3d1920$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <23e201c5afb4$5b0426e0$f29c9951@Robin> It was the bear in Birmingham threw me, but dave's post, and he should know, suggests this is a valid variant pronunciation. My own mistaken correction of your transcriptions stumbled over how to represent a scha -- the neutral unaccented vowel. I went for implication, so strictly, e.g., "hm" would be "h[scha]m". Kinna overlaps with the problem of writing/representing poetry in dialect. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Birmingham/Wolverhampton > Now my handsome, if I sez it too offen, it all zoundz th'same, like > them strange northern foks. > > Uncle Tom Cobbley > > On 9/1/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > > Wool - ver- hamp- ton > > > > wool-vir-ham-tn > > > > > where the l and the v run together. Probably roll the r if you said it > > > in a brummie accent. > > > > > > Birmingham: > > > > > > bear min hum > > > > bir-mn-hm > > > > God, Roger, dave's going to gut you over this. > > > > > > > > Robin St John Hamilton not from Worcester nor Lie-cess-tur > > > > > You get laughed at if you pronounce the ending like "Ham". Yes, I know > > > it's *spelt* that way. > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brum > > > > > > Then again, I've got a Westcountry accent so I can't be a reliable > > > guide. Of course I shall now be run out of town for daring to teach > > > northerners to suck eggs :-) > > > > > > R > > > > > > On 9/1/05, Marcus Bales wrote: > > > > Ok, let's start from the beginning: how do you even SAY "Wolverhampton"? > > > > > > > > Or "Birmingham", for that matter, if "Brummie" is derived from it? > > > > > > > > Marcus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > http://www.badstep.net > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From rog3r.day at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 08:02:01 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:02:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif In-Reply-To: <001201c5afa7$1bc016e0$04e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> References: <200508312251.j7VMpsiT031022@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001201c5afa7$1bc016e0$04e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: I don't believe anyone has had the cojones to ask for evidence before. The evasiveness in reply to this brazen question has been quite entertaining, something short of freudenschaft, but a definite wry smile. Maybe there's a link between "trust" and "authenticity of self"; mess with the latter and the former suffers. Hang on, are we crying "wolf" again? I believe there's a Kent Johnson. I've met him, or at least someone who said he was Kent Johnson. Disturbingly, the "Kent Johnson" I met looks like John Ashcroft, the US Rep in the UN. Joking aside, even though I believe Kent Johnson to be a gentleman of the highest repute with a formidable literary reputation and stellar abilities, I would still check twice if he told me the sky was blue. Roger On 9/2/05, David Bircumshaw wrote: > > I'll be quite honest and say that I really don't know what to make of this > whole issue: my reactions vary and veer between puzzled amusement to > outbreaks of anger, for which latter I reproach myself. > > The real problem, I suspect, is that the tactics that Kent and some his > partners employ generate uncertainty in an environment - the cybernetic > world - that is highly dependent on trust and rife with the seeds of > paranoia. I, for instance, incline towards the belief that Kent is who he > says he is, however that supposition depends upon (an implied contract of) > trust. Brit though I be, I'm not unaware that, say, 'Kent Johnson' is, in > American usage, also a name comparable to John Doe, I even came across, a > whilke back, a description of a "Kent Johnson' project run by a US > university, which was to simulate a human personality cybernetically, a la > Turing test. > > So one is always slightly unsure whether one is being had. It has to > observed that the primary preoccupation of the Kent posts is with literary > hierarchies and obtaining recognition, this sits very ill with declared > interest in non-egotistic presentation of the 'mythical' self. > > Best > > Dave > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ELEMENOPE Productions > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 3:53 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif > > > Notice how RadLib writers seek censorship when their views are challenged > and reach for the guillotine as soon as they hold the gavel (Hugo Chavez > the current model). Put a collective hand up in front of those faces they > don't fit the program. "Judge Clarence Thomas: right color, wrong mind, > we'll accuse him of sexism." (I await this "Kent Johnson" to imply that I'm > a racist for trying to explain, since I know the truth, and he doesn't, the > aitiologia of Lyndy England's downfall.) > > > The grifter/conman uses multiple techniques to get what he wants: he wants > you to drop your disbelief and buy so that this "Kent Johnson" can keep the > 3-Card Monte game going > > > In this case, the grift has multiple moves: the invocation of pedantry as a > technique of oneupsmanship; the ridiculous "theft" intended to create a buzz > and maybe a legend (notice how this "Kent Johnson" puts detectives on a wild > goose chase: he doesn't disclose any real fact, when Mr. Bales' sharp > question is posed about what cop is handling the case, the answer: somewhere > outside of Boston proper in an unknown municipality. Oh, tell. I, Fellow > in Poetry for The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, used to work for Regal Cab > of Harvard Square, Mr. Bill "Eminence Grise" Knott, and know Boston as well > as Plympton St.); the public presentation of a gift to a supporter (the > throwing of a bone); and of course the adventure of the "son." A little > truth in a pack of lies shaken and stirred makes a fine, redolent grift. > > > Just as long as this "Kent Johnson" doesn't sell real estate, stocks or > drugs, he'll do very well. Apparently, he's cleverer than his "son", off to > a madrassas or nirvana training facility by way of an English pub (?) (The > son can find the pub but we can't find the police station.) who just got > out of jail. For what? Truck rustling banditry? Or for not following his > Dad's explicit instructions in some other unnamed con? And that bit about > the "prayers." Hey, Buddhists with whom I study don't believe in God! If > you believe and they believe in you then they might believe in God.. But, > then, that leads us back to the problem of what to believe when confronted > with this "Kent Johnson." > > > R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 06:51 PM -0400 8/31/05, > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > Message: 19 > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:56:48 -0500 > From: "Kent Johnson" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen Truck (to Bill Knott) > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Bill Knott said, > > >at least kent, unlike some of the snipes on this > forum, has published books which can actually > be stolen as opposed to being downloaded > from nepotistic blogs. . . > if this list was limited to actual poets, poets > who are actually getting their work published in > real magazines or in book form, kent would > legitimately be on it, but how many of you > others would. . .< > > > Bill, Our Ever Living Poet, I will be sending you a complementary copy > of the first folio of Adventures in Poetry Blogland, a booke (90 pp.!) > which hath, as leading characatures, Diverfe Blogginge Perfonages inne > Varioufe and Illkinde Stages of Undreffe. There are astonishing > pictures, too. > > (IF, that is, the publisher is able to recover from the financial > losses of the stolen truck. The police [actually not the Boston police, > as this is in jurisdiction of an outlying community] are now pursuing > unfolding leads, I hear. Other clues, it turns out, were left in the > cab. But more as I find things out... My hope is that the case will be > solved and I will be able to include discussion of it in Adventures, > when the book is released in October. I hope it is released before I go > to Chile for a month... though come to think of it, maybe it's best if I > go to Chile right as it comes out!). > > I do feel the need to say, though, disagreeing just a bit, that there > certainly are plenty of legitimate poets on this list. I publish quite a > bit, it's true (my biggest chapbook to date, actually, Epigramititis: > 111 Living American Poets, at 250 pp. is coming out in November, right > after Adventures, and right after that, another chapbook, the second > Jaime Saenz, is coming out from Princeton UP), but the truth is, why not > just come out and say it, that everything I publish has some relation > to, as you term it, "Nepotism," inasmuch as I invariably know the > magazine or press editor(s) in some way or form and am very able, > believe me, at manipulating my relationship with him or her or them so > as to secure publication after publication (through sickest flattery, > basest barter, flagrantest cash payment, the profferest of physical > favors pertaining to all sexual preferences, or should none of these > work, outrightest threat), thus enraging pathetically adolescent > cartoonists in lederhosen to such an extent that they fly into > extravagant pole dances of free publicity on behalf of my poesies. Just > wait and see, for example, what happens in the next 24 hours... > > Well, we all do what we can. > > > > What a joke. A very good one, that. > > > > > My son is safely in London. Thank you for your prayers, everyone. He > wrote me an email this morning, from the Heatherbush Pub, in Hampstead. > It's in a little alley, pouring pints since the 17th century, very hard > to find, but find it he did. I guess the drinking age in England is > eighteen. > > The book will be on its way, Bill. > > Kent > > > > > -- > > > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Sep 2 08:41:34 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:41:34 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif References: <200508312251.j7VMpsiT031022@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001201c5afa7$1bc016e0$04e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <240b01c5afbb$a90e50c0$f29c9951@Robin> Mark The Crime MotifI think you're going a little far here dave -- I don't think there's any question that Kent Johnson really exists and teaches at Highland Community College. We did, after all, both have the opportunity to meet him when he was reading at the CCCP a year or so ago, and it's only our own ungracious fault that neither of us managed to get our act together to make a short train journey when Kent had flown 3,000 miles. [Ah, just seen Roger's post, who has met him. Or says he has -- it's only an email assertion after all. ] Over the current Heist Debate, I'm strongly inclined to believe Kent on this, and confess to a degree of malicious amusement that Kent seems to be hoist with his past heteronyms here. I only hope it gets resolved one way or the other -- I'll be really irritated is it ends up with a post-modernist non-climax and we never *do* get any certainty on the issue. It must be a lot less funny for Kent and Geoffrey Gatza, though. Something slightly similar happened years ago in the wake of the Lacan Letters fiasco on british-poetry lo those many years ago. (Incidentally, I sent off my cheque for this a week ago, and it still hasn't dropped through my letterbox.) When, because of or in the wake of that, Kent and Jacques Debrot got kicked off brit-po, Kent migrated to poetryetc, there suddenly appeared emails from (possibly) two Kent Johnsons. Kent protested that the Other Kent Johnson Wasn't Him. Candice Ward, who was a member of brit-po but also one of the moderators of poetryetc at that time, wasn't in a forgiving mood given what had happened to her in the course of the Lacan business (all I got were a series of increasingly abusive posts directed at me personally by Jacques, so I don't think I figure in the public version), pretty sharpish, fairly or unfairly, gave Kent the boot and went on (along with Alison Croggon and Randolph Healey who were the other moderators of poetryetc at the time) to laager up petc for three months -- no new members, the archives closed, and a serious search to see if there were any other malicious heteronyms lurking in the waincoating. A necessary purge, given what had happened. I don't think we're in that territory at the moment on New Poetry, which must be a relief to Finnegan and everyone else, as I don't imagine anyone would enjoy a three-month lockdown here. Interesting aside -- there are at least three people who've been Banned From Poetryetc involved in this particular thread. I wonder if this is significant? Robin (eagerly anticipating the next turn of this particular screw.) ----- Original Message ----- From: David Bircumshaw To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif I'll be quite honest and say that I really don't know what to make of this whole issue: my reactions vary and veer between puzzled amusement to outbreaks of anger, for which latter I reproach myself. The real problem, I suspect, is that the tactics that Kent and some his partners employ generate uncertainty in an environment - the cybernetic world - that is highly dependent on trust and rife with the seeds of paranoia. I, for instance, incline towards the belief that Kent is who he says he is, however that supposition depends upon (an implied contract of) trust. Brit though I be, I'm not unaware that, say, 'Kent Johnson' is, in American usage, also a name comparable to John Doe, I even came across, a whilke back, a description of a "Kent Johnson' project run by a US university, which was to simulate a human personality cybernetically, a la Turing test. So one is always slightly unsure whether one is being had. It has to observed that the primary preoccupation of the Kent posts is with literary hierarchies and obtaining recognition, this sits very ill with declared interest in non-egotistic presentation of the 'mythical' self. Best Dave From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Sep 2 08:58:54 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:58:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck References: <33abf27505083120384fab55df@mail.gmail.com><210101c5aed3$882166b0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com><21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090108597ba3f910@mail.gmail.com><223a01c5af12$39d3a150$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090112592f710674@mail.gmail.com><230e01c5af3d$d452f700$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090118164860320a@mail.gmail.com> <33abf27505090118175dfbeb03@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <24a501c5afbe$13fc3530$f29c9951@Robin> << ::chuckle:: I'm ornery, Robin, but I'm not insane. You better take back that Intelligent Design statement. Unless of course you're mocking my choice of hair color. My then-13-year-old nephew mocked me when I went from natural blond to fake red. Boy called me Artificial Intelligence. How's that for respecting your elders? >> Neat joke on your nephew's part, that. I'm surprised a ditzy blonde can manage the complexities of dying her own hair. Or did you have help? Were you deliberately micking Laura Bohannon? Her nickname at Oxford in the fifties was "Dusty". It took me some effort to find that, compared with which discovering your blog was child's play. << And speaking of elders, whose bedcovers did you peek under that you know how old I am? :) Physical age is irrelevant--it's all in the mind. And I'm looking forward to the day I become the scary old cat lady down the block. Maybe the neighborhood kids will think I'm a witch. >> You detail this in your blog. Which, as far as I could make out, doesn't have any content at the moment, and no picture of you so I'll have to take your word for the colour of your hair. Reminds me of that Yeats poem, "For Anne Gregory". If you don't know it, and don't have a Yeats on your shelves, check it out here: http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/y/yeats/william_butler/y4c/part90.html ... unnervingly apposite. I'd have left a message on your blog to show I'd been visiting, but I couldn't work out how. Robin From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 2 09:14:00 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:14:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif References: <200508312251.j7VMpsiT031022@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001201c5afa7$1bc016e0$04e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <240b01c5afbb$a90e50c0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <000c01c5afc0$2f8c6980$aeecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> As I said, Rob, I am inclined to think Kent Johnson is who he says he is, though some circumstances don't preclude a flicker of doubt in my mind, I don't really think that's going too far, do you? best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif > Mark The Crime MotifI think you're going a little far here dave -- I don't > think there's any question that Kent Johnson really exists and teaches at > Highland Community College. We did, after all, both have the opportunity to > meet him when he was reading at the CCCP a year or so ago, and it's only our > own ungracious fault that neither of us managed to get our act together to > make a short train journey when Kent had flown 3,000 miles. > > [Ah, just seen Roger's post, who has met him. Or says he has -- it's only > an email assertion after all. ] > > Over the current Heist Debate, I'm strongly inclined to believe Kent on > this, and confess to a degree of malicious amusement that Kent seems to be > hoist with his past heteronyms here. I only hope it gets resolved one way > or the other -- I'll be really irritated is it ends up with a post-modernist > non-climax and we never *do* get any certainty on the issue. It must be a > lot less funny for Kent and Geoffrey Gatza, though. > > Something slightly similar happened years ago in the wake of the Lacan > Letters fiasco on british-poetry lo those many years ago. (Incidentally, I > sent off my cheque for this a week ago, and it still hasn't dropped through > my letterbox.) When, because of or in the wake of that, Kent and Jacques > Debrot got kicked off brit-po, Kent migrated to poetryetc, there suddenly > appeared emails from (possibly) two Kent Johnsons. Kent protested that the > Other Kent Johnson Wasn't Him. > > Candice Ward, who was a member of brit-po but also one of the moderators of > poetryetc at that time, wasn't in a forgiving mood given what had happened > to her in the course of the Lacan business (all I got were a series of > increasingly abusive posts directed at me personally by Jacques, so I don't > think I figure in the public version), pretty sharpish, fairly or unfairly, > gave Kent the boot and went on (along with Alison Croggon and Randolph > Healey who were the other moderators of poetryetc at the time) to laager up > petc for three months -- no new members, the archives closed, and a serious > search to see if there were any other malicious heteronyms lurking in the > waincoating. A necessary purge, given what had happened. > > I don't think we're in that territory at the moment on New Poetry, which > must be a relief to Finnegan and everyone else, as I don't imagine anyone > would enjoy a three-month lockdown here. > > Interesting aside -- there are at least three people who've been Banned From > Poetryetc involved in this particular thread. I wonder if this is > significant? > > Robin > > (eagerly anticipating the next turn of this particular screw.) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Bircumshaw > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:14 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif > > > I'll be quite honest and say that I really don't know what to make of this > whole issue: my reactions vary and veer between puzzled amusement to > outbreaks of anger, for which latter I reproach myself. > > The real problem, I suspect, is that the tactics that Kent and some his > partners employ generate uncertainty in an environment - the cybernetic > world - that is highly dependent on trust and rife with the seeds of > paranoia. I, for instance, incline towards the belief that Kent is who he > says he is, however that supposition depends upon (an implied contract of) > trust. Brit though I be, I'm not unaware that, say, 'Kent Johnson' is, in > American usage, also a name comparable to John Doe, I even came across, a > whilke back, a description of a "Kent Johnson' project run by a US > university, which was to simulate a human personality cybernetically, a la > Turing test. > > So one is always slightly unsure whether one is being had. It has to > observed that the primary preoccupation of the Kent posts is with literary > hierarchies and obtaining recognition, this sits very ill with declared > interest in non-egotistic presentation of the 'mythical' self. > > Best > > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Sep 2 09:34:46 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:34:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif References: <200508312251.j7VMpsiT031022@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001201c5afa7$1bc016e0$04e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><240b01c5afbb$a90e50c0$f29c9951@Robin> <000c01c5afc0$2f8c6980$aeecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <24e801c5afc3$165c5300$f29c9951@Robin> << As I said, Rob, I am inclined to think Kent Johnson is who he says he is, though some circumstances don't preclude a flicker of doubt in my mind, I don't really think that's going too far, do you? best Dave >> Nah, dave, go with that. Though your post did seem (ironically?) to call into doubt his very existence. Though the way I'm feeling at the moment, compounded with the MVL refusing me a tax disk, I'm not sure *I* exist. (un)Cheers, Robin > The real problem, I suspect, is that the tactics that Kent and some his > partners employ generate uncertainty in an environment - the cybernetic > world - that is highly dependent on trust and rife with the seeds of > paranoia. I, for instance, incline towards the belief that Kent is who he > says he is, however that supposition depends upon (an implied contract of) > trust. Brit though I be, I'm not unaware that, say, 'Kent Johnson' is, in > American usage, also a name comparable to John Doe, I even came across, a > whilke back, a description of a "Kent Johnson' project run by a US > university, which was to simulate a human personality cybernetically, a la > Turing test. From snakecharmer at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 09:42:29 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:42:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck In-Reply-To: <24a501c5afbe$13fc3530$f29c9951@Robin> References: <33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com> <21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505090108597ba3f910@mail.gmail.com> <223a01c5af12$39d3a150$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505090112592f710674@mail.gmail.com> <230e01c5af3d$d452f700$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505090118164860320a@mail.gmail.com> <33abf27505090118175dfbeb03@mail.gmail.com> <24a501c5afbe$13fc3530$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <33abf27505090206426118aa81@mail.gmail.com> On 9/2/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: I'm surprised a ditzy blonde can manage the complexities of dying her own hair. Or did you have help? ...I had professional help. :P My blog is more a personal ranting space than a public forum. My friends are mostly long-distance now, so it's a way to keep up to date with each other when we barely have time to talk. I definitely don't intend it to be read by the literati. So no, no "content" per se. I occasionally link to other pages as I complete things, but I haven't written anything but a piece of crap lately. As for leaving a note, just click on the "comments" for any entry and it gives you a form at the bottom of the page. And you call *me* a dumb blonde... Yes, I know Yeats. I may be ignorant about most things discussed on this list, but I'm not uncivilised. Now I'm the one deeply offended. :) On 9/2/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > << > ::chuckle:: I'm ornery, Robin, but I'm not insane. You better take back > that > Intelligent Design statement. > > Unless of course you're mocking my choice of hair color. My > then-13-year-old > nephew mocked me when I went from natural blond to fake red. Boy called me > Artificial Intelligence. How's that for respecting your elders? > >> > > Neat joke on your nephew's part, that. I'm surprised a ditzy blonde can > manage the complexities of dying her own hair. Or did you have help? > > Were you deliberately micking Laura Bohannon? Her nickname at Oxford in > the > fifties was "Dusty". It took me some effort to find that, compared with > which discovering your blog was child's play. > > << > And speaking of elders, whose bedcovers did you peek under that you know > how > old I am? :) Physical age is irrelevant--it's all in the mind. And I'm > looking forward to the day I become the scary old cat lady down the block. > Maybe the neighborhood kids will think I'm a witch. > >> > > You detail this in your blog. Which, as far as I could make out, doesn't > have any content at the moment, and no picture of you so I'll have to take > your word for the colour of your hair. > > Reminds me of that Yeats poem, "For Anne Gregory". If you don't know it, > and don't have a Yeats on your shelves, check it out here: > > > > http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/y/yeats/william_butler/y4c/part90.html > > ... unnervingly apposite. > > I'd have left a message on your blog to show I'd been visiting, but I > couldn't work out how. > > Robin > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Fri Sep 2 10:04:34 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:04:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif In-Reply-To: References: <200508312251.j7VMpsiT031022@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001201c5afa7$1bc016e0$04e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <11333267.1125669874976.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Friday, September 02, 2005, at 08:05AM, Roger Day wrote: >I don't believe anyone has had the cojones to ask for evidence before. >The evasiveness in reply to this brazen question has been quite >entertaining, something short of freudenschaft, but a definite wry >smile. > >Maybe there's a link between "trust" and "authenticity of self"; mess >with the latter and the former suffers. Hang on, are we crying "wolf" >again? > >I believe there's a Kent Johnson. I've met him, or at least someone >who said he was Kent Johnson. Disturbingly, the "Kent Johnson" I met >looks like John Ashcroft, the US Rep in the UN. Joking aside, even >though I believe Kent Johnson to be a gentleman of the highest repute >with a formidable literary reputation and stellar abilities, I would >still check twice if he told me the sky was blue. > >Roger > >On 9/2/05, David Bircumshaw wrote: >> >> I'll be quite honest and say that I really don't know what to make of this >> whole issue: my reactions vary and veer between puzzled amusement to >> outbreaks of anger, for which latter I reproach myself. >> >> The real problem, I suspect, is that the tactics that Kent and some his >> partners employ generate uncertainty in an environment - the cybernetic >> world - that is highly dependent on trust and rife with the seeds of >> paranoia. I, for instance, incline towards the belief that Kent is who he >> says he is, however that supposition depends upon (an implied contract of) >> trust. Brit though I be, I'm not unaware that, say, 'Kent Johnson' is, in >> American usage, also a name comparable to John Doe, I even came across, a >> whilke back, a description of a "Kent Johnson' project run by a US >> university, which was to simulate a human personality cybernetically, a la >> Turing test. >> >> So one is always slightly unsure whether one is being had. It has to >> observed that the primary preoccupation of the Kent posts is with literary >> hierarchies and obtaining recognition, this sits very ill with declared >> interest in non-egotistic presentation of the 'mythical' self. >> >> Best >> >> Dave I've met Kent Johnson as well -- though because of his pleas to this list for confidence-building tips on reading which he needed because of recent weight gain (to nearly 400 lbs, IIRC), I first introduced myself to the only truly fat man in the room, who was not Kent Johnson. Kent's reading was spectacular, but since then I've been skeptical of any tale of woe from him. The current missing truck tale has not appeared on another list to which both Kent and I subscribe; on that list and not on this one Kent told of his arrest for (accidental) trespass, which he feared would lead to serious fines and possibly jail time. No mention ever of the resolution. I suspect it will be the same here with the truck. Mike S ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Sep 2 10:04:53 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:04:53 +0100 Subject: Setting Hair-dye -- was Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck References: <33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com><21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090108597ba3f910@mail.gmail.com><223a01c5af12$39d3a150$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090112592f710674@mail.gmail.com><230e01c5af3d$d452f700$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090118164860320a@mail.gmail.com><33abf27505090118175dfbeb03@mail.gmail.com><24a501c5afbe$13fc3530$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505090206426118aa81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <251601c5afc7$4debf830$f29c9951@Robin> << I'm surprised a ditzy blonde can manage the complexities of dying her own hair. Or did you have help? ...I had professional help. :P >> There you are, proves my point. << My blog ... As for leaving a note, just click on the "comments" for any entry and it gives you a form at the bottom of the page. And you call *me* a dumb blonde... >> I think my problem was I had to register for something before I could. And I didn't manage to do that. Partly because I'd just fallen off the waggon and was in the process of demolishing a couple of bottles of wine. And I didn't bookmark your blog, so now I'll have to find it again. If I do, I'll tell you the Churchill joke that may be marginally appropriate to this. If you haven't already heard it, Miss know-it-all. << Yes, I know Yeats. I may be ignorant about most things discussed on this list, but I'm not uncivilised. Now I'm the one deeply offended. :) >> But you must admit that poem was Truly Pertinent, nah? Robin From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Sep 2 12:14:03 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 18:14:03 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Brenda Marie Osbey Message-ID: <000801c5afd9$56311b30$7ba83852@ANNY> To Whom It May Concern: Those of us who did leave the City before the hurricane are scattered and waiting to return to begin again. Reports of looting, shooting and fires are distressing; but we hold on to faith that order will be quickly restored. What is most important is that those housed at the LA. Superdome not be forced to remain in what is clearly an untenable situation. Medical attention and supplies, food, clothing and transportation out of the City must be provided them. Repairs of levees and pumps must begin now. Many Americans know New Orleans primarily as a tourist destination, a playground of tourists and wealthy businessmen. The fact is that this is one of the greatest cities this country has known. It is unique in the history of the nation and through such industries as oil & gas, shipping and transportation and the growth and spread of jazz and the music culture that has grown out of it, has provided the backbone for much of what the rest of the world knows and thinks of as "American." Years ago we were dubbed "the City that Care Forgot," " Big Easy," "Silver City" not only because we knew how to enjoy life, because we were and are an open-handed and open-hearted people. New Orleanians the world over intend nothing less than the salvation of our City. Report that. I, my Mother and my companion left New Orleans on Sunday afternoon, traveled through Mississippi and Arkansas, and landed eventually in Shreveport, LA. at the Isle of Capri Casino Hotel. My brother remained in the City and still has land-line telephone service and water. Presently, I am able to make but not receive calls on my cell phone. We are safe and anxious to return to our City. New Orleanians are a people of unimaginable strength and resilience and New Orleans will be rebuilt as a great city. I am returning to begin again as soon as possible. Report that. Tell that to the world again and again. Brenda Marie Osbey Poet Laureate State of Louisiana ________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 2 17:04:26 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 17:04:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry Band Message-ID: <2b.7a951da0.304a185a@aol.com> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050831/phw003.html?.v=25 Novel and New Poetry Band: One-of-a-Kind Group Offers Music and Message Wednesday August 31, 7:55 am ET LOS ANGELES, Aug. 31 /PRNewswire/ -- Members of many bands don't even read books, much less write them. But Poetry Band is far from your average rock band. As the name implies, Poetry Band is a thrilling blend of avant-garde poems combined with guitar-driven music. Poetry Band features the visionary poetry of Wilson Sherman combined with an ever-growing collective of accomplished musicians. Though current releases are in a jazz-rock groove, new recordings could range from the London Philharmonic to a solo guitar, trumpet or flute. Poetry Band is one of the few spoken word Christian bands in America. So, why use spoken word and poetry? Simple - it was one of the first ways of communicating with God. "The first poetry band," Wilson Sherman says, "was David reciting his Psalms while the musicians jammed along!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 2 18:52:55 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 18:52:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] CLASSIC LITERARY STUDIES $3.95 Message-ID: http://www.scholarsbookshelf.com/default.asp?pageid=5 CLASSIC LITERARY STUDIES $3.95 SPECIAL OFFER Clothbound reprints of 70 Classic Literary Studies ALL at $3.95 Each. As part of this Special Offer - we will ship one additional FREE COPY for orders of 10 or more assorted titles from this group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 2 19:05:50 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 19:05:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICA Message-ID: POETICA 03/09/2005 15:00 08/09/2005 21:00 (repeat) National Poetry Week URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1434180.htm Once again PoeticA will be joining National Poetry Week with a round the nation sampling of contemporary poetry. This program includes work by Shelton Lea, Jean Thornton, S.K Kelen, Louise Oxley, James Charlton, Rob Walker, Jeri Kroll, Sandra Thibodeaux, Kevin Murray, Christine Paice, Lesley Singh, Quendreth Young, and the two winners of the recent Taronga Poetry Prize for young Australians, Phillip Stapelton and Rachael Jessup. LINGUA FRANCA 03/09/2005 15:45 08/09/2005 21:45 (repeat) and... http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/default.htm Federico Garcia Lorca: A Bold Life, An Untimely Death 27/08/2005 Listen in Real Media Parts 1 & 2 Hobart is the home of the innovative music theatre company, IHOS Opera. With the support and assistance of ABC's Regional Production Fund, working in collaboration with Radio National's Radio Drama Unit, PoeticA has had the opportunity to work with a range of musicians, singers and theatre makers in Hobart and Sydney, to explore the poetic works of the seminal twentieth century Spanish poet and dramatic writer, Federico Garcia Lorca. Federico Garcia Lorca: A Bold Life, An Untimely Death 20/08/2005 Listen in Real Media Parts 1 & 2 Hobart is the home of the innovative music theatre company, IHOS Opera. With the support and assistance of ABC's Regional Production Fund, working in collaboration with Radio National's Radio Drama Unit, PoeticA has had the opportunity to work with a range of musicians, singers and theatre makers in Hobart and Sydney, to explore the poetic works of the seminal twentieth century Spanish p oet and dramatic writer, Federico Garcia Lorca. National Science Week Poets 13/08/2005 Listen in Real Media To celebrate National Science Week, PoeticA will be broadcasting the work of two exciting poets who tackle the big scientific questions. Tony Page writes mind-stretching poems on the subjects of astronomy, evolution, chemistry, physics and the big bang. Phil Norton entertains with humorous and moving interpretations of quantum mechanics, the interference of observation, the speed of light, the absence of matter and the strong force. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 2 19:23:43 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:23:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif References: <200508312251.j7VMpsiT031022@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001201c5afa7$1bc016e0$04e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <11333267.1125669874976.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <002201c5b015$5cb82160$71ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> This gets odder and odder: I recall some years back that KJ was then claiming, on BritPo, that he had suddenly been subject to a ballooning of weight, this was roughly contemporeanous with Mairead Byrne sporadically claiming that she was not only Irish but also a black woman, which was why she had to emigrate to the States, one does not know what to believe with stuff like this, what comes across is the suspicion of an egotistic project being perpetuated, an attention-getting game. As Roger said, Kent might be an honourable man but I wouldn't trust him if he said the sky was blue. according to his own lights, all might be ok in these deceits, but it undermines that necessary component of belief that all human relationships require. And other than self-furtherance, I don't see the point of whatever the game that is that they're playing. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Snider" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif > > On Friday, September 02, 2005, at 08:05AM, Roger Day wrote: > > >I don't believe anyone has had the cojones to ask for evidence before. > >The evasiveness in reply to this brazen question has been quite > >entertaining, something short of freudenschaft, but a definite wry > >smile. > > > >Maybe there's a link between "trust" and "authenticity of self"; mess > >with the latter and the former suffers. Hang on, are we crying "wolf" > >again? > > > >I believe there's a Kent Johnson. I've met him, or at least someone > >who said he was Kent Johnson. Disturbingly, the "Kent Johnson" I met > >looks like John Ashcroft, the US Rep in the UN. Joking aside, even > >though I believe Kent Johnson to be a gentleman of the highest repute > >with a formidable literary reputation and stellar abilities, I would > >still check twice if he told me the sky was blue. > > > >Roger > > > >On 9/2/05, David Bircumshaw wrote: > >> > >> I'll be quite honest and say that I really don't know what to make of this > >> whole issue: my reactions vary and veer between puzzled amusement to > >> outbreaks of anger, for which latter I reproach myself. > >> > >> The real problem, I suspect, is that the tactics that Kent and some his > >> partners employ generate uncertainty in an environment - the cybernetic > >> world - that is highly dependent on trust and rife with the seeds of > >> paranoia. I, for instance, incline towards the belief that Kent is who he > >> says he is, however that supposition depends upon (an implied contract of) > >> trust. Brit though I be, I'm not unaware that, say, 'Kent Johnson' is, in > >> American usage, also a name comparable to John Doe, I even came across, a > >> whilke back, a description of a "Kent Johnson' project run by a US > >> university, which was to simulate a human personality cybernetically, a la > >> Turing test. > >> > >> So one is always slightly unsure whether one is being had. It has to > >> observed that the primary preoccupation of the Kent posts is with literary > >> hierarchies and obtaining recognition, this sits very ill with declared > >> interest in non-egotistic presentation of the 'mythical' self. > >> > >> Best > >> > >> Dave > > > > I've met Kent Johnson as well -- though because of his pleas to this list for confidence-building tips on reading which he needed because of recent weight gain (to nearly 400 lbs, IIRC), I first introduced myself to the only truly fat man in the room, who was not Kent Johnson. Kent's reading was spectacular, but since then I've been skeptical of any tale of woe from him. > > The current missing truck tale has not appeared on another list to which both Kent and I subscribe; on that list and not on this one Kent told of his arrest for (accidental) trespass, which he feared would lead to serious fines and possibly jail time. No mention ever of the resolution. I suspect it will be the same here with the truck. > > Mike S > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 2 20:09:20 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 01:09:20 +0100 Subject: Setting Hair-dye -- was Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck References: <33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com><21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090108597ba3f910@mail.gmail.com><223a01c5af12$39d3a150$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090112592f710674@mail.gmail.com><230e01c5af3d$d452f700$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090118164860320a@mail.gmail.com><33abf27505090118175dfbeb03@mail.gmail.com><24a501c5afbe$13fc3530$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090206426118aa81@mail.gmail.com> <251601c5afc7$4debf830$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <004501c5b01b$bc234200$71ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Going back to poetry, Robin, aside from your sudden interest in hair-dye (gawd knows wot's brought that on as youse ain't got enough to left for a tint) I was showing Lydia some Tom Leonard poems tonight, she definitely likes them btw, she did comment though re the Alison Flett debate that you might be caught in a particularity about dilaectiacl representation whereas from one from the outside it is a matter of rough generalities applying. Food for thought? Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: Setting Hair-dye -- was Re: [New-Poetry] Stolen truck > << > I'm surprised a ditzy blonde can manage the complexities of dying her own > hair. Or did you have help? > > ...I had professional help. :P > >> > > There you are, proves my point. > > << > My blog ... As for leaving a note, just click on the "comments" for any > entry and it gives you a form at the bottom of the page. And you call *me* a > dumb blonde... > >> > > > > I think my problem was I had to register for something before I could. And > I didn't manage to do that. Partly because I'd just fallen off the waggon > and was in the process of demolishing a couple of bottles of wine. > > And I didn't bookmark your blog, so now I'll have to find it again. > > If I do, I'll tell you the Churchill joke that may be marginally appropriate > to this. > > If you haven't already heard it, Miss know-it-all. > > << > Yes, I know Yeats. I may be ignorant about most things discussed on this > list, but I'm not uncivilised. Now I'm the one deeply offended. :) > >> > > > > But you must admit that poem was Truly Pertinent, nah? > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tad at opus40.org Fri Sep 2 21:10:22 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:10:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry Band References: <2b.7a951da0.304a185a@aol.com> Message-ID: <006601c5b024$45193bc0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> For a neat poetry and music CD, check out Karen Alkalay-Gut's Thin Lips. http://www.thinlips.com/ Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 5:04 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry Band http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050831/phw003.html?.v=25 Novel and New Poetry Band: One-of-a-Kind Group Offers Music and Message Wednesday August 31, 7:55 am ET LOS ANGELES, Aug. 31 /PRNewswire/ -- Members of many bands don't even read books, much less write them. But Poetry Band is far from your average rock band. As the name implies, Poetry Band is a thrilling blend of avant-garde poems combined with guitar-driven music. Poetry Band features the visionary poetry of Wilson Sherman combined with an ever-growing collective of accomplished musicians. Though current releases are in a jazz-rock groove, new recordings could range from the London Philharmonic to a solo guitar, trumpet or flute. Poetry Band is one of the few spoken word Christian bands in America. So, why use spoken word and poetry? Simple - it was one of the first ways of communicating with God. "The first poetry band," Wilson Sherman says, "was David reciting his Psalms while the musicians jammed along!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 05:47:54 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 10:47:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif References: <200508312251.j7VMpsiT031022@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001201c5afa7$1bc016e0$04e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <240b01c5afbb$a90e50c0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <002a01c5b06c$8f68be10$14e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> > Interesting aside -- there are at least three people who've been Banned From > Poetryetc involved in this particular thread. I wonder if this is > significant? > > Robin > > (eagerly anticipating the next turn of this particular screw.) I dunno, Rob, I think I can say that my case it's not relevant, my base response has been one of confusion, laced with snarls and jokes. I fail to understand why all this stuff has suddenly resurfaced on New Poetry, I imagine a fair few subscribers must be scratching their heads in incomprehension. Going away from all this, opinions anyone on Maggie O'Sullivan's poetry - probably most people on this list have never seen any, Lydia and I were pondering some of her work last night, and the jury's out, in avant-garde circles (some) in the UK she's highly regarded, other people draw a blank from her writing, there seems to be a significant difference in those who have seen her perform (very favourable) and those who haven't (not so much interested). Me and Lyds fall into the middle - we think some of it works but not all (in a very different way I had a similarly ambivalent response to the Gregg poem discussed here, a much more conventional poem, true, but likewise I found myself both saying yes and no to it). Poetry is very precarious. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif > Mark The Crime MotifI think you're going a little far here dave -- I don't > think there's any question that Kent Johnson really exists and teaches at > Highland Community College. We did, after all, both have the opportunity to > meet him when he was reading at the CCCP a year or so ago, and it's only our > own ungracious fault that neither of us managed to get our act together to > make a short train journey when Kent had flown 3,000 miles. > > [Ah, just seen Roger's post, who has met him. Or says he has -- it's only > an email assertion after all. ] > > Over the current Heist Debate, I'm strongly inclined to believe Kent on > this, and confess to a degree of malicious amusement that Kent seems to be > hoist with his past heteronyms here. I only hope it gets resolved one way > or the other -- I'll be really irritated is it ends up with a post-modernist > non-climax and we never *do* get any certainty on the issue. It must be a > lot less funny for Kent and Geoffrey Gatza, though. > > Something slightly similar happened years ago in the wake of the Lacan > Letters fiasco on british-poetry lo those many years ago. (Incidentally, I > sent off my cheque for this a week ago, and it still hasn't dropped through > my letterbox.) When, because of or in the wake of that, Kent and Jacques > Debrot got kicked off brit-po, Kent migrated to poetryetc, there suddenly > appeared emails from (possibly) two Kent Johnsons. Kent protested that the > Other Kent Johnson Wasn't Him. > > Candice Ward, who was a member of brit-po but also one of the moderators of > poetryetc at that time, wasn't in a forgiving mood given what had happened > to her in the course of the Lacan business (all I got were a series of > increasingly abusive posts directed at me personally by Jacques, so I don't > think I figure in the public version), pretty sharpish, fairly or unfairly, > gave Kent the boot and went on (along with Alison Croggon and Randolph > Healey who were the other moderators of poetryetc at the time) to laager up > petc for three months -- no new members, the archives closed, and a serious > search to see if there were any other malicious heteronyms lurking in the > waincoating. A necessary purge, given what had happened. > > I don't think we're in that territory at the moment on New Poetry, which > must be a relief to Finnegan and everyone else, as I don't imagine anyone > would enjoy a three-month lockdown here. > > Interesting aside -- there are at least three people who've been Banned From > Poetryetc involved in this particular thread. I wonder if this is > significant? > > Robin > > (eagerly anticipating the next turn of this particular screw.) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Bircumshaw > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:14 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif > > > I'll be quite honest and say that I really don't know what to make of this > whole issue: my reactions vary and veer between puzzled amusement to > outbreaks of anger, for which latter I reproach myself. > > The real problem, I suspect, is that the tactics that Kent and some his > partners employ generate uncertainty in an environment - the cybernetic > world - that is highly dependent on trust and rife with the seeds of > paranoia. I, for instance, incline towards the belief that Kent is who he > says he is, however that supposition depends upon (an implied contract of) > trust. Brit though I be, I'm not unaware that, say, 'Kent Johnson' is, in > American usage, also a name comparable to John Doe, I even came across, a > whilke back, a description of a "Kent Johnson' project run by a US > university, which was to simulate a human personality cybernetically, a la > Turing test. > > So one is always slightly unsure whether one is being had. It has to > observed that the primary preoccupation of the Kent posts is with literary > hierarchies and obtaining recognition, this sits very ill with declared > interest in non-egotistic presentation of the 'mythical' self. > > Best > > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 08:09:42 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 13:09:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] another tack References: <2b.7a951da0.304a185a@aol.com> <006601c5b024$45193bc0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <001801c5b080$5e339b30$63e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Rob just for info, Victoria has passed her GCSE, she had to go to the college yesterday to find out what had happened as the British educational system has done one of its fuck-ups in not informing people on time of their results, but the brain-stroked zimmer-framed dyslexic little lady has managed to do it, against all the odds, I am so pleased for her. (this is a much better matter for discusssion than certain other subjects) Best Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 3 09:56:32 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 09:56:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sugar Mile Message-ID: <20.4c3afdca.304b0590@aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/books/review/04WIMANL.html 'The Sugar Mile': Poet at the Bar By CHRISTIAN WIMAN Published: September 4, 2005 Why, in the 21st century, would anyone tell a long story in verse? Not only are you likely to get more readers (and money) if you turn your material into a novel or screenplay, but even in the narrow world of poetry the highest praise usually goes to work that is lyrical, personal and short. Developing the technical skill to sustain a long narrative poem can seem equivalent to becoming an expert cooper or blacksmith: interesting, even admirable in a live-off-the-land sort of way, but also somewhat wayward and perverse, even a bit, well, wacko. Enter the English poet Glyn Maxwell, THE SUGAR MILE By Glyn Maxwell. 140 pp. Houghton Mifflin Company. $23. Forum: Book News and Reviews -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 10:03:07 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 09:03:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sugar Mile In-Reply-To: <20.4c3afdca.304b0590@aol.com> References: <20.4c3afdca.304b0590@aol.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a0509030703111c74ea@mail.gmail.com> I saw Glyn Maxwell read sections from *The Sugar Mile* last summer at West Chester. He put on a great show and the poems were (I thought) wonderful. I remember his reading a sestina that was a dramatic monologue spoken by a bar tender. The sestina was often broken by long asides as the bar tender answered the phone. I read Maxwell's earlier book, *Time's Fool*, some time ago. It's a long book and often plodding, but a compelling story. Jeff Newberry On 9/3/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/books/review/04WIMANL.html > > 'The Sugar Mile': Poet at the Bar > > By CHRISTIAN WIMAN > Published: September 4, 2005 > > Why, in the 21st century, would anyone tell a long story in verse? Not > only are you likely to get more readers (and money) if you turn your > material into a novel or screenplay, but even in the narrow world of poetry > the highest praise usually goes to work that is lyrical, personal and short. > Developing the technical skill to sustain a long narrative poem can seem > equivalent to becoming an expert cooper or blacksmith: interesting, even > admirable in a live-off-the-land sort of way, but also somewhat wayward and > perverse, even a bit, well, wacko. > > Enter the English poet Glyn Maxwell, > > > THE SUGAR MILE > By Glyn Maxwell. > 140 pp. Houghton Mifflin Company. $23. > > Forum: Book News and Reviews > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 10:10:09 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 15:10:09 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark The Crime Motif In-Reply-To: <24e801c5afc3$165c5300$f29c9951@Robin> References: <200508312251.j7VMpsiT031022@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001201c5afa7$1bc016e0$04e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <240b01c5afbb$a90e50c0$f29c9951@Robin> <000c01c5afc0$2f8c6980$aeecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <24e801c5afc3$165c5300$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: I am here to bring you bad tidings, and agreement. It's not you that exists; the thing that exists, the thing of which you're the doppelganger, is your information original. He's out there in databases everywhere, doing things, things like dieing, opening new accounts, getting married, divorced etc. Occasionally you have to catch up with him or him with you. Obviously yours has just been banned from driving :-) Mine recently got divorced and I'm still trying to pin him down, ask him why? and what am I going to do now. Maybe I'll just buy him a long cold glass of beer. Roger On 9/2/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > << > As I said, Rob, I am inclined to think Kent Johnson is who he says he is, > though some circumstances don't preclude a flicker of doubt in my mind, I > don't really think that's going too far, do you? > > best > > Dave > >> > > Nah, dave, go with that. Though your post did seem (ironically?) to call > into doubt his very existence. > > Though the way I'm feeling at the moment, compounded with the MVL refusing > me a tax disk, I'm not sure *I* exist. > > (un)Cheers, > > Robin > > > The real problem, I suspect, is that the tactics that Kent and some his > > partners employ generate uncertainty in an environment - the cybernetic > > world - that is highly dependent on trust and rife with the seeds of > > paranoia. I, for instance, incline towards the belief that Kent is who he > > says he is, however that supposition depends upon (an implied contract of) > > trust. Brit though I be, I'm not unaware that, say, 'Kent Johnson' is, in > > American usage, also a name comparable to John Doe, I even came across, a > > whilke back, a description of a "Kent Johnson' project run by a US > > university, which was to simulate a human personality cybernetically, a la > > Turing test. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- http://www.badstep.net From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Sep 3 12:17:17 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 18:17:17 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sugar Mile References: <20.4c3afdca.304b0590@aol.com> <731bb17a0509030703111c74ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003301c5b0a2$f4276460$21ab3852@ANNY> Let's see, is it maybe this one? RAUL EMPTYING ASHTRAYS The guy's asleep, are you done, you British guys? Are you done contributing? Do we what, do we go on alone? Is it time now? I'm kidding. Give us a signal, give us a sign! Give us the thumbs up, Joey. He's out of it, I tell you. Hey Brits, You want us to save your ass again? You guys You nap, we'll take the watch. We'll wake you for the next one, Are you in? I'm kidding with you Clint. Clint can take it, Clint's smiling in his beer. He's thinking this dumbass! Or is it arse? He's thinking this silly arse! Hey Joe you with us? It's the middle of next week! Easy now, it's okay It's Saturday Still, and it's still, or it was, an awesome day. The ladies are gone though Joey. Clint scared them off with some poems, You missed it all! Glyn Maxwell - The sugar mile ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Sugar Mile I saw Glyn Maxwell read sections from The Sugar Mile last summer at West Chester. He put on a great show and the poems were (I thought) wonderful. I remember his reading a sestina that was a dramatic monologue spoken by a bar tender. The sestina was often broken by long asides as the bar tender answered the phone. I read Maxwell's earlier book, Time's Fool, some time ago. It's a long book and often plodding, but a compelling story. Jeff Newberry On 9/3/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/books/review/04WIMANL.html 'The Sugar Mile': Poet at the Bar By CHRISTIAN WIMAN Published: September 4, 2005 Why, in the 21st century, would anyone tell a long story in verse? Not only are you likely to get more readers (and money) if you turn your material into a novel or screenplay, but even in the narrow world of poetry the highest praise usually goes to work that is lyrical, personal and short. Developing the technical skill to sustain a long narrative poem can seem equivalent to becoming an expert cooper or blacksmith: interesting, even admirable in a live-off-the-land sort of way, but also somewhat wayward and perverse, even a bit, well, wacko. Enter the English poet Glyn Maxwell, THE SUGAR MILE By Glyn Maxwell. 140 pp. Houghton Mifflin Company. $23. Forum: Book News and Reviews _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 12:43:11 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 17:43:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sugar Mile References: <20.4c3afdca.304b0590@aol.com><731bb17a0509030703111c74ea@mail.gmail.com> <003301c5b0a2$f4276460$21ab3852@ANNY> Message-ID: <01cd01c5b0a6$934f3ab0$f29c9951@Robin> RAUL EMPTYING ASHTRAYS I'm kidding with you Clint. Clint can take it, Clint's smiling in his beer. He's thinking this dumbass! Or is it arse? He's thinking this silly arse! Hey Joe you with us? It's the middle of next week! Easy now, it's okay It's Saturday ... "silly arse" doesn't run. The arse/ass distinction isn't simply Brit/UK, but certain idioms only work with one or the other regardless of which side of the Pond they're uttered. Further, the "ass" in the Brit term "silly ass" is the fourlegged creature, not the bit between a human's tummy and thighs. (It's also archaic and mildly class-loaded.) That's no problem. The problem I have is: Who's making the mistake? The speaker, an American who trips over the idiom and mis-ventriloquises the English Clint? Or the poet? The recurring problem with "mistakes" in poems -- are they intended? Perhaps someone more familiar with Glyn Maxwell's work can resolve this for me. As he's English, I guess the point being made is the limits of the speaker. Interesting. Robin From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 3 12:53:45 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 11:53:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind of elegy to the Poetics List Message-ID: I'm just walking again after two days with a bad flu. Jim Behrle sent flowers and a card, which was very nice of him. He even wrote me a get-well poem, which was doubly nice. You can see it here. http://thejimside.blog-city.com/ (I can't deny it: the intensities of his attentions make me blush. Poems, cartoons, flowers, it's all quite flattering.) Speaking of poems, this poem by me was put up some days ago at the Jacket feature on George Bowering. It alludes, lovingly, to the Poetics battles ca. 1998, when the list was in its glory days. Oh, we fought back then, but no one, as I recall, ever said "I spit on you." Hm. Not really necessary, that... http://jacketmagazine.com/28/bow-kent.html Viva Canada. Kent From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 3 13:35:12 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:35:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] to Mike Snider re: my reading in NC Message-ID: Mike, Thank you for saying you thought I gave a good reading in Chapel Hill. Do you really think that, though? I felt I didn't do that well, actually, and felt disappointed in myself. And I enjoyed talking to you later at the party, as you blogged. It all looked very complicated and mathematical, the blogging thing you were doing, or whatever it was. I wish you liked my book more, Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz, but I know it's that kind of book--strong feelings on different sides, so I can't complain, really. Kent From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 3 13:51:16 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:51:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] to Roger Day in London, I hope Message-ID: And Roger, I enjoyed meeting you at CCCP that time, and I hope we'll have another chance. Thank you. If you'd like to meet a *better* version of me, look my son up in London (you are in London, right?) at the Dover Castle Hostel on 6A Great Dover Street. I hope you do. Say something nice about me to him. I'd be thrilled if you could drop by and introduce yourself. He'd be thrilled, too. He will be there until Wednesday, when he gathers with his India group for a couple days before departure to New Dehli. all the best, Kent From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 3 14:57:41 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 14:57:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Anna of All the Russias: Message-ID: <7e.7070adcc.304b4c25@aol.com> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050903/BKANNA03/TPEntertainment/Books A Russian revolutionary whose weapon was poetry By STEPHEN SCHWARTZ Saturday, September 3, 2005 Page D16 Anna of All the Russias: The Life of Anna Akhmatova By Elaine Feinstein This volume is a magnificent achievement for Elaine Feinstein, previously mainly known as a biographer of, among others, the tragic English poet Ted Hughes, the classic Russian versifier Pushkin, killed in a duel, and the female Russian poet Marina Tsvetayeva, a contemporary in time and in suffering of Feinstein's latest subject. It is a book that will greatly advance the understanding in the West of one of the defining literary personalities of the bloody and heartbreaking 20th century. Anna Gorenko, the daughter of a naval engineer of vaguely progressive views, assumed the name Akhmatova -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 3 15:02:59 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 15:02:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' Message-ID: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,923-1760445,00.html September 03, 2005 'It's not facts, it's emotion' Carol Ann Duffy's latest work documents a love affair in full, searing intensity. Jeanette Winterson meets a poet holding back nothing - in her work at least IN THE TAXI FROM MANCHESTER Piccadilly to Didsbury, where Carol Ann Duffy lives, the driver asks me why I'm in Manchester. I tell him. "Oh, Carol Ann, oh yeah, she's a well-known Manchester bird. They do her in school, like. In't she the Poet Laurel?" Sadly she isn't. In 1999 she was neck and neck with Andrew Motion to succeed Ted Hughes, and the word in the newspapers was that Tony Blair didn't want a lesbian. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Faustina1 at aol.com Sat Sep 3 15:18:44 2005 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 15:18:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' Message-ID: <12b.64993e97.304b5114@aol.com> I'd appreciate it if someone would send me a list of the English women poets laureate...thanks, Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 15:22:35 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 20:22:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anna of All the Russias: References: <7e.7070adcc.304b4c25@aol.com> Message-ID: <0c9501c5b0bc$d9a86840$f29c9951@Robin> There's a terrific translation, +The Complete Poems of Anna Akhmatova+ by Judith Hemschemeyer (Zephyr Press, Boston, 1992). I think Elaine Feinstein has done some translations of AA, as well as the new biography. I don't really like Feinstein's writing, I have to confess. Probably prejudice on my part. Robin Anna of All the Russias: The Life of Anna Akhmatova By Elaine Feinstein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 3 15:26:19 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 15:26:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Complete List of English Poet Laureates with XX Chromosomes Message-ID: <1f7.114e7c11.304b52db@aol.com> From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 15:38:51 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 20:38:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] to Roger Day in London, I hope References: Message-ID: <005601c5b0bf$1d3a76a0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Hey, Kent, that means your son's in Lambeth, just off the New Kent Road ( I joke not, that's where Great Dover St is) I used to live in London so I know a thing or two. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 6:51 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] to Roger Day in London, I hope > And Roger, I enjoyed meeting you at CCCP that time, and I hope we'll > have another chance. Thank you. > > If you'd like to meet a *better* version of me, look my son up in > London (you are in London, right?) at the Dover Castle Hostel on 6A > Great Dover Street. I hope you do. Say something nice about me to him. > I'd be thrilled if you could drop by and introduce yourself. He'd be > thrilled, too. He will be there until Wednesday, when he gathers with > his India group for a couple days before departure to New Dehli. > > all the best, > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 15:40:23 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 20:40:23 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com> Message-ID: <0ca501c5b0bf$541cc1a0$f29c9951@Robin> TimesQuote: << Sadly she [Carol Ann Duffy] isn't [poet laureate]. In 1999 she was neck and neck with Andrew Motion to succeed Ted Hughes, and the word in the newspapers was that Tony Blair didn't want a lesbian. >> Wasn't it U.A.Fanthorpe (whose work I prefer to Duffy) who missed the cut because she was a lesbian? Mind you, our current Pote Lariat seems to have been appointed the same way the Conservatives appoint a leader -- "We can't have *him*" [currently Kenneth Clarke] or her -- so we end up with bland nonentities like Andrew Motion. Or is describing Motion as a bland nonentity too kind? The obvious choice would have been Derek Walacott, but he was a colonial, so we can't have him, can we? That St Kitts boasts more Nobel Laureates per head of population than anywhere else in the world by a factor of five probably didn't help either. Tony Harrison (who I could have lived with, even though I find him personally dislikeable) never even got mentioned. Not a figure that sanitised New Labour particularly favoured, given his politics. Though it's become mildly comic that Harrison is effectively the counter-Laureate, having his poems published in the Guardian where Motion has his published in the Times. Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 15:43:13 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 20:43:13 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <12b.64993e97.304b5114@aol.com> Message-ID: <0cb501c5b0bf$b9c429d0$f29c9951@Robin> << I'd appreciate it if someone would send me a list of the English women poets laureate...thanks, Janet >> Never been one, Janet. Yet. Mind you, there's never been a Scottish-born Laureate either, and we're supposed to be part of the United Kingdom. Robin From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Sep 3 15:51:01 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 15:51:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] to Mike Snider re: my reading in NC References: Message-ID: <009401c5b0c0$d3181f30$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Let's look at this typical Kent Johnson hooey. > Thank you for saying you thought I gave a good reading in Chapel Hill. > Do you really think that, though? I felt I didn't do that well, > actually, and felt disappointed in myself.< First, Kent picks out the one blurbable thing in Mike's email. This is akin to taking "so bad it's incredible" as a review and blurbing it as "...incredible..." -- it's beyond disingenuous. Then there's the implicit request for the repetition of the compliment, minimal as it was. Kent protests that it wasn't that good, hoping for Mike to say something like "Oh, no, you shouldn't feel disappointed in yourself, Kent" -- fishing for compliments. > And I enjoyed talking to you later at the party, as you blogged. It all > looked very complicated and mathematical, the blogging thing you were > doing, or whatever it was. < And here's Kent sucking up -- pretending he is too slow and ignorant to appreciate the ingenuity with which Mike was blogging, as if Kent has never blogged, has just barely heard of it, is in awe. This is transparent ass-kissing. > I wish you liked my book more, Lyric Poetry > after Auschwitz, but I know it's that kind of book--strong feelings on > different sides, so I can't complain, really.< Here's Kent trying to defend his book when no attack has been made. Kent's pretending to be the hurt artist in the face of the mean critic, and then pretends to be the magnanimous artist in the face of the mean critic. Is this really the level of sucking up that one has to engage in to succeed in the poetry business? I've seen Gabe Gudding and Mairead Byrne and several others doing this kind of thing with Kent Johnson in the past. Does no one else get the icky shivers at the sight of this kind of crap? Marcus From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 15:58:22 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 20:58:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com> Message-ID: <006901c5b0c1$d8946df0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> >Carol Ann Duffy's latest work documents a love affair in full, searing intensity. Jeanette Winterson meets a poet holding back nothing - in her work at least----- < I'm afraid Carol Ann Duffy would be capable of writing something in 'full, searing intensity' - she is not so much afraid of cliches as positively in love with them - you see the effect of even talking about her - I'm starting to do them myself - and the idea of an impact between here an a mush-head like Winsterson is enough to make me squirm for months. For the record, C.A.Duffy C.B.E (that stands for Commander of the British Empire) was sidelined by Blair in his very political choice for Poet Laureate because he had an even more effective stooge in Andrew Motion, the Watcher Who Sits So Sly. I've no doubt though that if Motion had not been existent Duffy's abilities at faux lyricism and cheap jokes would have been eagerly embraced by the British Establishment in his stead. Duffy is really Scots you know, but that's a kind of secret, I saw her read once, she amazed the audience by saying: 'I don't know if any of you have ever got drunk - I did once'. Oh the joys of being plastic. Best Dave From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 8:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,923-1760445,00.html September 03, 2005 'It's not facts, it's emotion' Carol Ann Duffy's latest work documents a love affair in full, searing intensity. Jeanette Winterson meets a poet holding back nothing - in her work at least IN THE TAXI FROM MANCHESTER Piccadilly to Didsbury, where Carol Ann Duffy lives, the driver asks me why I'm in Manchester. I tell him. "Oh, Carol Ann, oh yeah, she's a well-known Manchester bird. They do her in school, like. In't she the Poet Laurel?" Sadly she isn't. In 1999 she was neck and neck with Andrew Motion to succeed Ted Hughes, and the word in the newspapers was that Tony Blair didn't want a lesbian. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 16:20:44 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 21:20:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com> <0ca501c5b0bf$541cc1a0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <009301c5b0c5$2bdac290$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Rob, just do not mention Harrison to me: some years back, a mate of mine, who was best pals with Harrison as a student, tried to call in a favour and asked him to read for us at Leicester. My mate was owed many a pint by said Harrison, another part of their circle was a slightly older ex-serviceman called Jon Silkin (the founder of Stand and one of the most dedicated persons to poetry on the face of this planet) Harrison wrote back: "You couldn't afford me" Instead we had Jon Silkin - guess what happened - Leicester University had a programme of free (to the public) readings at that time, but they took care to make sure they were on a Thursday night not a Friday so they wouldn't conflict with ours. Harrison suddenly developed this deep desire to do a free reading at Leicester Uni but it had to be not just on a Friday rather than a Thursday night but the same one on which Silkin was reading to us. Ours of course had to be chargeable as we didn't have the kind of funds the Uni had. I rest my case: I know, Rob, you're quite an innocent Scots gentleman and don't really realise just how horrible the "English" poetry scene is, that last in upended commas because not all the players are English anyhow, it just happens here. care Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' TimesQuote: << Sadly she [Carol Ann Duffy] isn't [poet laureate]. In 1999 she was neck and neck with Andrew Motion to succeed Ted Hughes, and the word in the newspapers was that Tony Blair didn't want a lesbian. >> Wasn't it U.A.Fanthorpe (whose work I prefer to Duffy) who missed the cut because she was a lesbian? Mind you, our current Pote Lariat seems to have been appointed the same way the Conservatives appoint a leader -- "We can't have *him*" [currently Kenneth Clarke] or her -- so we end up with bland nonentities like Andrew Motion. Or is describing Motion as a bland nonentity too kind? The obvious choice would have been Derek Walacott, but he was a colonial, so we can't have him, can we? That St Kitts boasts more Nobel Laureates per head of population than anywhere else in the world by a factor of five probably didn't help either. Tony Harrison (who I could have lived with, even though I find him personally dislikeable) never even got mentioned. Not a figure that sanitised New Labour particularly favoured, given his politics. Though it's become mildly comic that Harrison is effectively the counter-Laureate, having his poems published in the Guardian where Motion has his published in the Times. Robin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 16:30:38 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 21:30:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com> <006901c5b0c1$d8946df0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <0cfc01c5b0c6$5973ed70$f29c9951@Robin> Quoth dave: << Blair in his very political choice for Poet Laureate because he had an even more effective stooge in Andrew Motion, the Watcher Who Sits So Sly. >> I think you overestimate the positive element in the choice of Motion. The Real Lady (who inter alia is godmother to Motion's daughter, so she's a touch biased) once Sighed to me, "Why is it that everyone dislikes Andrew so much, Robin? Is it because he's handsome, and successful, and rich?" I didn't have the heart (or let's be honest, the nerve either) to say, "No Marion, it's not that, it's because he's so fucking *boring*." Not so much the heart of darkness as the ultimate null. But what else is new? The English (I use the term advisedly, as the Scots and the Welsh and the Irish never had much imput in the business) have a tradition down through the generations of choosing either total nonentities or figures who, like Wordsworth and Ted Hughes, are burned-out by the time they're appointed. The one exception of course is the first, self-appointed, Henry VIII's Vicar of Hell, John Skelton. Now there's a *real* laureate for you. Would he were living at this hour. Robin From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Sep 3 16:31:23 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 22:31:23 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Complete List of English Poet Laureates with XXChromosomes References: <1f7.114e7c11.304b52db@aol.com> Message-ID: <00e701c5b0c6$73ac6be0$21ab3852@ANNY> This is an interesting list! From: Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 9:26 PM From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Sep 3 16:32:21 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 15:32:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frederick Douglass escaped today Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050903152843.026b8c98@mail.ilstu.edu> On this day in 1838 Frederick Douglass escaped slavery. From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 3 16:38:13 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 15:38:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nomination of Marcus's post Message-ID: I hereby nominate Marcus's post below for POETRY LISTSERV POST OF THE YEAR! :~ ) Kent PS: I mean I make an attempt at a few friendly words and I get a whole session with the shrink! Goodness. * Let's look at this typical Kent Johnson hooey. > Thank you for saying you thought I gave a good reading in Chapel Hill. > Do you really think that, though? I felt I didn't do that well, > actually, and felt disappointed in myself.< First, Kent picks out the one blurbable thing in Mike's email. This is akin to taking "so bad it's incredible" as a review and blurbing it as "...incredible..." -- it's beyond disingenuous. Then there's the implicit request for the repetition of the compliment, minimal as it was. Kent protests that it wasn't that good, hoping for Mike to say something like "Oh, no, you shouldn't feel disappointed in yourself, Kent" -- fishing for compliments. > And I enjoyed talking to you later at the party, as you blogged. It all > looked very complicated and mathematical, the blogging thing you were > doing, or whatever it was. < And here's Kent sucking up -- pretending he is too slow and ignorant to appreciate the ingenuity with which Mike was blogging, as if Kent has never blogged, has just barely heard of it, is in awe. This is transparent ass-kissing. > I wish you liked my book more, Lyric Poetry > after Auschwitz, but I know it's that kind of book--strong feelings on > different sides, so I can't complain, really.< Here's Kent trying to defend his book when no attack has been made. Kent's pretending to be the hurt artist in the face of the mean critic, and then pretends to be the magnanimous artist in the face of the mean critic. Is this really the level of sucking up that one has to engage in to succeed in the poetry business? I've seen Gabe Gudding and Mairead Byrne and several others doing this kind of thing with Kent Johnson in the past. Does no one else get the icky shivers at the sight of this kind of crap? Marcus From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 16:48:42 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 21:48:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com><0ca501c5b0bf$541cc1a0$f29c9951@Robin> <009301c5b0c5$2bdac290$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <0d1501c5b0c8$dfdd7eb0$f29c9951@Robin> Actually, dave, I don't think we're disagreeing here. Based on my limited contact with the man, as a person, Tony Harrison is a total shit, so I'm not surprised by what you say below. That doesn't affect the fact that +The School of Eloquence+ and +Continuous+ and to a lesser extent "V" are bloody marvelous as poetry. I'd be overjoyed it if every poet had the personality of Jon Silkin, a lovely man, and the talent of Harrison, but it just ain't often the case. Look at you yourself, for instance ... (I'm not saying that Silkin wasn't a fine poet, but he finally, for me, doesn't have the edge in his writing that Harrison has at his best.) And I may be Scottish but I'm not that naive. One difference is that there are, in terms of sheer numbers, fewer Scottish poets than English ones, so the Scottish scene tends to be more like a family quarrel at Christmas than the social and cultural splits that rive the English scene. A Bonny Scotsman - Original Message ----- Rob, just do not mention Harrison to me: some years back, a mate of mine, who was best pals with Harrison as a student, tried to call in a favour and asked him to read for us at Leicester. My mate was owed many a pint by said Harrison, another part of their circle was a slightly older ex-serviceman called Jon Silkin (the founder of Stand and one of the most dedicated persons to poetry on the face of this planet) Harrison wrote back: "You couldn't afford me" Instead we had Jon Silkin - guess what happened - Leicester University had a programme of free (to the public) readings at that time, but they took care to make sure they were on a Thursday night not a Friday so they wouldn't conflict with ours. Harrison suddenly developed this deep desire to do a free reading at Leicester Uni but it had to be not just on a Friday rather than a Thursday night but the same one on which Silkin was reading to us. Ours of course had to be chargeable as we didn't have the kind of funds the Uni had. I rest my case: I know, Rob, you're quite an innocent Scots gentleman and don't really realise just how horrible the "English" poetry scene is, that last in upended commas because not all the players are English anyhow, it just happens here. care Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 16:49:01 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 21:49:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com><006901c5b0c1$d8946df0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <0cfc01c5b0c6$5973ed70$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <00bd01c5b0c8$edebf9a0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> My dear kind Rob well, yeah, I think the choice of Motion was partly his nullity, but also his willingnesss, which is ongoing, to put hard work into that programmatic nullity, there you have a man who can deaden any issue, and keep language under control. I'd be careful of using terms advisedly as I recall Tony Blair is actually a Scot and whether you argue that Poet's Laureates began under Plantagenet, Tudor or Stuart monarchs those persons were respectively French, Welsh or Scots. I've never been too taken by Skelton, you know, anti Graves, I don't think his metrics quite work. Give me the Gawayne poet or his best mate Anon anyday! Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' > Quoth dave: > > << > Blair in his very political choice for Poet Laureate because he had an even > more effective stooge in Andrew Motion, the Watcher Who Sits So Sly. > >> > > I think you overestimate the positive element in the choice of Motion. > > The Real Lady (who inter alia is godmother to Motion's daughter, so she's a > touch biased) once Sighed to me, "Why is it that everyone dislikes Andrew so > much, Robin? Is it because he's handsome, and successful, and rich?" > > I didn't have the heart (or let's be honest, the nerve either) to say, "No > Marion, it's not that, it's because he's so fucking *boring*." > > Not so much the heart of darkness as the ultimate null. > > But what else is new? The English (I use the term advisedly, as the Scots > and the Welsh and the Irish never had much imput in the business) have a > tradition down through the generations of choosing either total nonentities > or figures who, like Wordsworth and Ted Hughes, are burned-out by the time > they're appointed. > > The one exception of course is the first, self-appointed, Henry VIII's Vicar > of Hell, John Skelton. > > Now there's a *real* laureate for you. Would he were living at this hour. > > Robin > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 3 16:50:01 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 15:50:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Kasey Silem Mohammad Message-ID: This today from Kasey's blog, Lime Tree http://limetree.ksilem.com/ More on this later. But it does seem that I am a lightning rod for trouble these days. My my. But more later. My reading with Kasey in Providence should be quite an event! I will have to start off with my Fortune Cookie poem... Kent * Fascicle, et al. I'm behind everyone else in reporting this, but Fascicle (I can't see that title without picturing a frozen nazi on a stick) is now online. It's a huge and hugely impressive effort on the part of Tony Tost, Kent Johnson, and all other editorial entities involved. I'm not so enthusiastic, however, about Kent's own three "creative" entries--the naming-names schtick was trite when it started, and now it's just obnoxious. I wouldn't even bother mentioning it, except that I'm increasingly annoyed by Kent's passive-aggressive manipulative behavior, of which his poetry is just one visible symptom. I always seem to get dragged into it somehow, and I'm really bored with it. What fucking "cake" did I bake, Kent? Do you have a problem with me? Then express it directly. Start your own blog or something, say what's on your mind, and can it with the lame "literary" stunts. Just for the record, although I'm already way past regretting bringing any of this up in the first place, I thought it was uncalled for when Jim Behrle contacted Kent's boss. I say this not because I consider it my place to reprimand Jim, but because I don't want some stupid situation in which I am implicitly understood (i.e., by Kent) as condoning any and all attacks on Kent in any manner just because I think Jim's funny and mostly right most of the time. (Though I'm stumped as to why Jim chose to immortalize Tony as a cartoon wookiee, other than that one of the most amusing things about Jim's razor wit [besides that it's all rusty and covered with gross body hair] is that it frequently flies shuriken-style in all directions for no good reason. We'll all take turns. I'll get mine too.) I also don't want this to get construed as me "choosing sides" in some bullshit quarrel that is largely Kent's own hallucination in the first place. It's on record that I've found much of Kent's work interesting and impressive. I wrote a blurb for his mostly witty and graceful Miseries of Poetry, I think the Yasusada project is at least deserving of serious critical notice, and I even think some of the Iraq war stuff is worthwhile (though again, I have no idea what he's going for by throwing his personal poetic grudges into the mix, and I find those moments offensive in their trivialization of atrocity). I'm not interested in debating any of this further with Kent or anyone else. I just want my position known, since Kent saw fit to mention my name. I am so done now. ---- Walter Benjamin's tips on writing, recently posted by Mark Scroggins. ---- And the estimable Dana Ward is guest-blogging at The Well-Nourished Moon.... 11:56 AM From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Sep 3 16:53:34 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 22:53:34 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <12b.64993e97.304b5114@aol.com> Message-ID: <012601c5b0c9$8d1d2620$21ab3852@ANNY> Hi Janet, if by English you mean British, I found this list: http://www.hycyber.com/CLASS/laureate_uk.html and this paragraph from the following link: http://www.litencyc.com/php/speople.php?rec=true&UID=1337 After the death of the previous poet laureate Ted Hughes in 1999, Duffy came close to being the first female holder of the post, although Andrew Motion was eventually selected. Although mainly known for her poetic work, Duffy is also a prolific playwright and freelance writer. From: Faustina1 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 9:18 PM I'd appreciate it if someone would send me a list of the English women poets laureate...thanks, Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 3 16:57:10 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 16:57:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <12b.64993e97.304b5114@aol.com> <0cb501c5b0bf$b9c429d0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <010601c5b0ca$0e094ca0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > << > I'd appreciate it if someone would send me a list of the English women > poets > laureate...thanks, Janet >>> > > Never been one, Janet. Yet. > > Mind you, there's never been a Scottish-born Laureate either, and we're > supposed to be part of the United Kingdom. > > Robin There HAVE been a few laureates who were poets, though, I understand. (Actually, the British laureates seem to me vastly better than the American laureates.) --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 17:06:15 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 22:06:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com><006901c5b0c1$d8946df0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><0cfc01c5b0c6$5973ed70$f29c9951@Robin> <00bd01c5b0c8$edebf9a0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <0d2a01c5b0cb$52de7ed0$f29c9951@Robin> > My dear kind Rob You're being sarcastic again, aren't you? (said me, suspiciously). > I'd be careful of using terms advisedly as I recall Tony > Blair is actually a Scot Well, there are Scots and Scots -- Blair was born there, but that's about it, whereas Gordon Brown went to school in Scotland and then Edinburgh University, not Oxford. And there was Robin Cook. Those two were and are real Scots, the Smile isn't and never was. > and whether you argue that Poet's Laureates began > under Plantagenet, Who? Coeur de Lion's fancy boy? > Tudor or Stuart monarchs those persons were respectively > French, Welsh or Scots. Skelton was English, and by the early sixteenth century, that was a meaning-filled concept. (Look at the way he hated the Scots.) > I've never been too taken by Skelton, you know, anti Graves, I don't think > his metrics quite work. Um ... Depends which poem. The "skeltonic metre" poems have their own logic, and work for my ear. Poems like "Manerly Margery milk and ale" and "Skelton's Lullaby" lie behind Ben Jonson, though I doubt if he ever admitted it. Then there's "Philip Sparrow" and "The Tunning of Elinour Rumming". Puttenham has a lot to answer for in calling the man "filthy Skelton" and kicking him into the long grass in favour of Wyatt, and Surrey (for god's sake). Who was it coined the term, "the gentility principle"? Shaw? > Give me the Gawayne poet or his best mate Anon anyday! Apples and oranges -- that one's good doesn't make the other bad. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 3 17:07:36 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 17:07:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Complete List of English Poet Laureates withXXChromosomes References: <1f7.114e7c11.304b52db@aol.com> <00e701c5b0c6$73ac6be0$21ab3852@ANNY> Message-ID: <012901c5b0cb$831fdbc0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > This is an interesting list! Notice, though, that there is NO BURSTNORM POET on it. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 17:12:18 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 22:12:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Complete List of English Poet LaureateswithXXChromosomes References: <1f7.114e7c11.304b52db@aol.com><00e701c5b0c6$73ac6be0$21ab3852@ANNY> <012901c5b0cb$831fdbc0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <0d3b01c5b0cc$2b8a7b80$f29c9951@Robin> > > This is an interesting list! > > Notice, though, that there is NO BURSTNORM POET on it. > > --Bob G. Nor any stasguard poets either. Maybe the best laureate is a non-existent one. The silence outwith the cannon. R. From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 17:28:19 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 22:28:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com><0ca501c5b0bf$541cc1a0$f29c9951@Robin><009301c5b0c5$2bdac290$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <0d1501c5b0c8$dfdd7eb0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <00ee01c5b0ce$680a1550$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Rob i think you're missing a point here - that now the Scottish scene and Scots writers are not identical. I think, btw, one could retract 'now' - it's been going on for a long time, Carol Ann Duffy is a contemporary case in point, in respect of poetry. The facts are that in terms of population the UK is massively imbalanced, in terms of power even more so, despite all the good Scots Labour politicians we have. I, as a poor Brummie illiterate, am even more disenfranchised linguistically than a Scot or a West Indian writer in England. I simply am not supposed to exist (all Brummies are thick etc so no-one can take them seriously) and there is no standard of orthography that is consensual where I can even begin to represent how I speak. I might live just a 100 miles from London (here in Lear's City) but it might as well be light-years rather than miles. England though is, to use the cliche, a multi-cultural multi-racial society, it is not a matter of the 'English', I somehow doubt if it ever really was btw, this night, I've just been taken for a drink by my Russian mate Eugene (the physcist) - good point that - my Anglo-American-Swedish-Irish friend Lydia is worried about me, my Anglo-Welsh-Italian friend Victoria is mumbling quietly to herself in a Nottingham accent, while over the road The Bricklayers Arms is pouring out its weekend diet of excruciating karoake presided over by an Irish landlord most of us who live locally would happily lynch if we got the chance. Meanwhile, somewhere down below, the Somalis are pushing coke and the West Indians women. That's 'England'. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 9:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' Actually, dave, I don't think we're disagreeing here. Based on my limited contact with the man, as a person, Tony Harrison is a total shit, so I'm not surprised by what you say below. That doesn't affect the fact that +The School of Eloquence+ and +Continuous+ and to a lesser extent "V" are bloody marvelous as poetry. I'd be overjoyed it if every poet had the personality of Jon Silkin, a lovely man, and the talent of Harrison, but it just ain't often the case. Look at you yourself, for instance ... (I'm not saying that Silkin wasn't a fine poet, but he finally, for me, doesn't have the edge in his writing that Harrison has at his best.) And I may be Scottish but I'm not that naive. One difference is that there are, in terms of sheer numbers, fewer Scottish poets than English ones, so the Scottish scene tends to be more like a family quarrel at Christmas than the social and cultural splits that rive the English scene. A Bonny Scotsman - Original Message ----- Rob, just do not mention Harrison to me: some years back, a mate of mine, who was best pals with Harrison as a student, tried to call in a favour and asked him to read for us at Leicester. My mate was owed many a pint by said Harrison, another part of their circle was a slightly older ex-serviceman called Jon Silkin (the founder of Stand and one of the most dedicated persons to poetry on the face of this planet) Harrison wrote back: "You couldn't afford me" Instead we had Jon Silkin - guess what happened - Leicester University had a programme of free (to the public) readings at that time, but they took care to make sure they were on a Thursday night not a Friday so they wouldn't conflict with ours. Harrison suddenly developed this deep desire to do a free reading at Leicester Uni but it had to be not just on a Friday rather than a Thursday night but the same one on which Silkin was reading to us. Ours of course had to be chargeable as we didn't have the kind of funds the Uni had. I rest my case: I know, Rob, you're quite an innocent Scots gentleman and don't really realise just how horrible the "English" poetry scene is, that last in upended commas because not all the players are English anyhow, it just happens here. care Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Sat Sep 3 17:38:35 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 17:38:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu> ...i think Duffy's the best British poet since Larkin and Raine. . . hasn't she received more critical acclaim and attention than any poet of her generation? here are two books about her: "Carol Ann Duffy," by Deryn Rees-Jones (Northcote House, 1999), and a "York Notes: Carol Ann Duffy / Selected Poems" (Longman/York Press, 2001: seventh printing 2004). . . her first book "Standing Female Nude" (1985) won a Scottish Arts Council Book Award; in 1988 she received the Somerset Maugham Award, and in 1989 the Dylan Thomas Award; in 1992 she won the Cholmondley Award, and the following year her fourth book of poems "Mean Time" won both of the top two prizes for Briitsh poetry, the Forward and the Whitbread (analogous to winning here the National Book Award and the Pulitzer); in 1995 she got a Lannan Literary Award, and was awarded the OBE, and in 1999 she was made a Fellow of the Royal Society of Letters. . . isn't that impressive? it certainly impresses me: i started reading her (and teaching her to my poetry students) back in '94, after her double win with "Mean Time". . . in addition to her poetry books, all of which are constantly in print, she has edited some wonderful anthologies, and adapted Grimm's Tales for the stage. . . if you don't know her work, you're in for a delightful time discovering her. . . below are a few by her: WARMING HER PEARLS for Judith Radstone Next to my own skin, her pearls. My mistress bids me wear them, warm them, until evening when I'll brush her hair. At six, I place them round her cool, white throat. All day I think of her, resting in the Yellow Room, contemplating silk or taffeta, which gown tonight? She fans herself whilst I work willingly, my slow heat entering each pearl. Slack on my neck, her rope. She's beautiful. I dream about her in my attic bed; picture her dancing with tall men, puzzled by my faint, persistent scent beneath her French perfume, her milky stones. I dust her shoulders with a rabbit's foot, watch the soft blush seep through her skin like an indolent sigh. In her looking-glass my red lips part as though I want to speak. Full moon. Her carriage brings her home. I see her every movement in my head. . . . Undressing, taking off her jewels, her slim hand reaching for the case, slipping naked into bed, the way she always does. . . . And I lie here awake, knowing the pearls are cooling even now in the room where my mistress sleeps. All night I feel their absence and I burn. Prayer Some days, although we cannot pray, a prayer utters itself. So, a woman will lift her head from the sieve of her hands and stare at the minims sung by a tree, a sudden gift. Some nights, although we are faithless, the truth enters our hearts, that small familiar pain; then a man will stand stock-still, hearing his youth in the distant Latin chanting of a train. Pray for us now. Grade I piano scales console the lodger looking out across a Midlands town. Then dusk, and someone calls a child's name as though they named their loss. Darkness outside. Inside, the radio's prayer? Rockall. Malin. Dogger. Finisterre. MILES AWAY I want you and you are not here. I pause in this garden, breathing the colour thought is before language into still air. Even your name is a pale ghost and, though I exhale it again and again, it will not stay with me. Tonight I make you up, imagine you, your movements clearer than the words I have you say you said before. Wherever you are now, inside my head you fix me with a look, standing here whilst cool late light dissolves into the earth. I have got your mouth wrong, but still it smiles. I hold you closer, miles away, inventing love, until the calls of nightjars interrupt and turn what was to come, was certain, into memory. The stars are filming us for no one. * -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4964 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 3 17:58:15 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 17:58:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <017d01c5b0d2$965041b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Interesting to note that the Iowa plaintext poem is getting as many "impressive" awards in Britain as here. --Bob G. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Sep 3 18:02:46 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 00:02:46 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Complete List of English Poet LaureateswithXXChromosomes References: <1f7.114e7c11.304b52db@aol.com><00e701c5b0c6$73ac6be0$21ab3852@ANNY> <012901c5b0cb$831fdbc0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <019c01c5b0d3$37892510$21ab3852@ANNY> And I also notice that James Finnegan was right. From: "Bob Grumman" Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 11:07 PM >> This is an interesting list! > > Notice, though, that there is NO BURSTNORM POET on it. > > --Bob G. From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 18:06:11 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:06:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com><006901c5b0c1$d8946df0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><0cfc01c5b0c6$5973ed70$f29c9951@Robin><00bd01c5b0c8$edebf9a0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <0d2a01c5b0cb$52de7ed0$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <012801c5b0d3$b22bcc50$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> > > and whether you argue that Poet's Laureates began > > under Plantagenet, > > Who? Coeur de Lion's fancy boy? Naow, Rob, arguably that great bore Gower, he certainly was approached by Richard II, so to speak. I haven't received the list of Poet Laureates, if memory serves it officially began about Dryden's time, Ben Jonson, for example, was unofficially so but never thus entitled, I suspect Skelton was probably just Court Idiot in reality. But anyhow, most of the appointees have been drones, from Alfred Austin to C. Day Lewis is but a short line. They can make you almost glad for the existence of John Masefield, yeah, he was PL for an awfully long time and wrote rotten poetry but at least he was good at being a bad poet! Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' > > My dear kind Rob > > You're being sarcastic again, aren't you? (said me, suspiciously). > > > I'd be careful of using terms advisedly as I recall Tony > > Blair is actually a Scot > > Well, there are Scots and Scots -- Blair was born there, but that's about > it, whereas Gordon Brown went to school in Scotland and then Edinburgh > University, not Oxford. And there was Robin Cook. Those two were and are > real Scots, the Smile isn't and never was. > > > and whether you argue that Poet's Laureates began > > under Plantagenet, > > Who? Coeur de Lion's fancy boy? > > > Tudor or Stuart monarchs those persons were respectively > > French, Welsh or Scots. > > Skelton was English, and by the early sixteenth century, that was a > meaning-filled concept. (Look at the way he hated the Scots.) > > > I've never been too taken by Skelton, you know, anti Graves, I don't think > > his metrics quite work. > > Um ... Depends which poem. The "skeltonic metre" poems have their own > logic, and work for my ear. Poems like "Manerly Margery milk and ale" and > "Skelton's Lullaby" lie behind Ben Jonson, though I doubt if he ever > admitted it. Then there's "Philip Sparrow" and "The Tunning of Elinour > Rumming". Puttenham has a lot to answer for in calling the man "filthy > Skelton" and kicking him into the long grass in favour of Wyatt, and Surrey > (for god's sake). Who was it coined the term, "the gentility principle"? > Shaw? > > > Give me the Gawayne poet or his best mate Anon anyday! > > Apples and oranges -- that one's good doesn't make the other bad. > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 18:13:07 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:13:07 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com><0ca501c5b0bf$541cc1a0$f29c9951@Robin><009301c5b0c5$2bdac290$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><0d1501c5b0c8$dfdd7eb0$f29c9951@Robin> <00ee01c5b0ce$680a1550$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <0d7a01c5b0d4$aaaeb9a0$f29c9951@Robin> << i think you're missing a point here - that now the Scottish scene and Scots writers are not identical. I think, btw, one could retract 'now' - it's been going on for a long time, >> Point, dave -- you could stretch it at least as far back as Byron. And along with Carol Ann Duffy, there's Douglas Dunn whose work I like (though not as much as some other people like it) but whom I just don't see as "Scots" in any meaningful sense. He's working quite within what could be called very muzzily "the English tradition". If that makes sense. But those are exceptions, I think -- mostly Scots poets work in a vaguely Scottish tradition even if (like me) they end up living in the East Midlands. Also, if they go to university, they tend to go to a Scottish university, at least as undergraduates, so Scotland never suffered the stranglehold of the Oxbridge/London axis. << I, as a poor Brummie illiterate, am even more disenfranchised linguistically than a Scot or a West Indian writer in England. >> I think you've put your finger on it there, dave. If it's not my ignorance and blinkers, Scotland and the West Indian writers, both in London and Jamiaca itself, are where it's at here, because ... << I simply am not supposed to exist (all Brummies are thick etc so no-one can take them seriously) and there is no standard of orthography that is consensual where I can even begin to represent how I speak. >> ... the whole orthography business is crucial. But. In turn, it depends on a minimum community of writers, which you have in Scotland and London/Jamiaca. And remember, an orthography for representing urban Glasgow didn't exist in the sixties. Sure, there were things to build on that maybe isn't the case in England, but mostly it was Tom Leonard working bloody *hard* to confront and solve specific problems. And now we have Alison Flett and Lydia Robb, in prose James Kelman, possibly Alasdair Grey, and Irvine Walsh in Edinburgh. But you can't either legislate for this or even kiss it into being. It happens, it's partly luck, all kinds of factors, but I think the one thing you simply can't do is go it alone. Well, there was William Barnes in the last century but one, English, one of yours, but I can't think, as of now, of another example. It's not fair, and I'd be delighted if a school of Birmingham writers, or Nottingham or whatever emerged, but ... It's not a fair world, dave, in oh so many ways as we both know. My real luck wasn't being born middle class, though I'm not knocking the advantages of that -- Anne Stevenson once said in an article in the Scotsman that of eight young poets she'd known, only two made it to graduation, and that one was at Art College (Liz Lochead) and the other was a middle class son of a minister (guess who). I still think that was a trifle unfair (Liz is as middle class as me, come to that), but you can't argue with the numbers. Though some, like Tom Leonard, came back, and he's a professor now, not me, which goes to show. Something. My luck was being at the right place at the right time when there were a lot of us, coincidentally, all up the Hill at the same moment. The critical mass metaphor, if it's not too much of a clich?. Anyway, back to the Urban Language Poetry post that I've been working at for bloody hours, continually interrupted by boings from the computer signalling yet another arrival in my New Poetry folder. Robin From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 18:28:36 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:28:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <014901c5b0d6$f58e97e0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> ...i think Duffy's the best British poet since Larkin and Raine. . . hasn't she received more critical acclaim and attention than any poet of her generation? William by any sane standard of dsiscussion this statement is bollocks. First of all, how do you have any idea who the 'best British poet' about is - have you read everyone who publishes here? I certainly haven't and wouldn't dare make such a comment about British poets. Secondly, what are your parameters of judgement? Since 'Larkin and Raine' leaves the gyroscope of the years quietly having a fit in its apologetic (British) corner, you mean Larkin that quite good frustrated Romantic poet who also had leanings not just in his letters but in his poems towards right-wing fantasy and Raine the great cloth-ear of our time AND in the meantime cutting out everybody in between? How do you define British? What do you mean by critical acclaim? For that latter it probably equates with mind-death, I recall for example over here some years back, in between Larkin and Raine, so to speak, a woman called Susan Lanier, an Oxbridge student, published a volume of poetry that had critics comparing her to Shakespeare, very quietly, very embarrassedly, her plauditors one by one slid off as they belatedly realised what she wrote was rubbish. Carol Ann Duffy writes mind-numbing dullness, worthy of a Poet Laureate, she knows how to pull the literary scene and The Establishment, hence a CBE, I recall back in the Eighties or early Nineties people showing me her verses and saying how good they were, I looked blankly at them (the people and the verses) and muttered 'you are joking'. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Knott" To: Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 10:38 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy ...i think Duffy's the best British poet since Larkin and Raine. . . hasn't she received more critical acclaim and attention than any poet of her generation? here are two books about her: "Carol Ann Duffy," by Deryn Rees-Jones (Northcote House, 1999), and a "York Notes: Carol Ann Duffy / Selected Poems" (Longman/York Press, 2001: seventh printing 2004). . . her first book "Standing Female Nude" (1985) won a Scottish Arts Council Book Award; in 1988 she received the Somerset Maugham Award, and in 1989 the Dylan Thomas Award; in 1992 she won the Cholmondley Award, and the following year her fourth book of poems "Mean Time" won both of the top two prizes for Briitsh poetry, the Forward and the Whitbread (analogous to winning here the National Book Award and the Pulitzer); in 1995 she got a Lannan Literary Award, and was awarded the OBE, and in 1999 she was made a Fellow of the Royal Society of Letters. . . isn't that impressive? it certainly impresses me: i started reading her (and teaching her to my poetry students) back in '94, after her double win with "Mean Time". . . in addition to her poetry books, all of which are constantly in print, she has edited some wonderful anthologies, and adapted Grimm's Tales for the stage. . . if you don't know her work, you're in for a delightful time discovering her. . . below are a few by her: WARMING HER PEARLS for Judith Radstone Next to my own skin, her pearls. My mistress bids me wear them, warm them, until evening when I'll brush her hair. At six, I place them round her cool, white throat. All day I think of her, resting in the Yellow Room, contemplating silk or taffeta, which gown tonight? She fans herself whilst I work willingly, my slow heat entering each pearl. Slack on my neck, her rope. She's beautiful. I dream about her in my attic bed; picture her dancing with tall men, puzzled by my faint, persistent scent beneath her French perfume, her milky stones. I dust her shoulders with a rabbit's foot, watch the soft blush seep through her skin like an indolent sigh. In her looking-glass my red lips part as though I want to speak. Full moon. Her carriage brings her home. I see her every movement in my head. . . . Undressing, taking off her jewels, her slim hand reaching for the case, slipping naked into bed, the way she always does. . . . And I lie here awake, knowing the pearls are cooling even now in the room where my mistress sleeps. All night I feel their absence and I burn. Prayer Some days, although we cannot pray, a prayer utters itself. So, a woman will lift her head from the sieve of her hands and stare at the minims sung by a tree, a sudden gift. Some nights, although we are faithless, the truth enters our hearts, that small familiar pain; then a man will stand stock-still, hearing his youth in the distant Latin chanting of a train. Pray for us now. Grade I piano scales console the lodger looking out across a Midlands town. Then dusk, and someone calls a child's name as though they named their loss. Darkness outside. Inside, the radio's prayer? Rockall. Malin. Dogger. Finisterre. MILES AWAY I want you and you are not here. I pause in this garden, breathing the colour thought is before language into still air. Even your name is a pale ghost and, though I exhale it again and again, it will not stay with me. Tonight I make you up, imagine you, your movements clearer than the words I have you say you said before. Wherever you are now, inside my head you fix me with a look, standing here whilst cool late light dissolves into the earth. I have got your mouth wrong, but still it smiles. I hold you closer, miles away, inventing love, until the calls of nightjars interrupt and turn what was to come, was certain, into memory. The stars are filming us for no one. * ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 18:30:44 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:30:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu> <017d01c5b0d2$965041b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <0d9601c5b0d7$208b8980$f29c9951@Robin> > Interesting to note that the Iowa plaintext poem is getting as many > "impressive" awards in Britain as here. > > --Bob G. Took the words out of my mouth you did, Bob. I don't dislike her work the way dave does, I just find her utterly boring. Including and perhaps especially the warming-pearls poem that Bill Knott cited. I just can't see in her what Bill does. It may be one of my blocks (my ex-wife, like Bill, thinks she's the greatest thing since sliced bread) ... No, I'm saying that but I don't believe it. She simply isn't in the same league as U.A.Fanthorpe, who's not that much different in age. Let alone, to go back a bit, Stevie Smith. Or Anne Stevenson, if she's lived in Britain long enough to be naturalised. Or Libby Houston. (Now there's a *really* under-rated poet for you.) I'll see if I can find "Not My Best Side" somewhere on the Web. Put that beside "Warming Her Pearls", bite it and see. (The poem alludes to Paolo Uccello's "St George and the Dragon") Robin U. A. Fanthorpe Not my Best Side I Not my best side, I'm afraid. The artist didn't give me a chance to Pose properly, and as you can see, Poor chap, he had this obsession with Triangles, so he left off two of my Feet. I didn't comment at the time (What, after all, are two feet To a monster?) but afterwards I was sorry for the bad publicity. Why, I said to myself, should my conqueror Be so ostentatiously beardless, and ride A horse with a deformed neck and square hoofs? Why should my victim be so Unattractive as to be inedible, And why should she have me literally On a string? I don't mind dying Ritually, since I always rise again, But I should have liked a little more blood To show they were taking me seriously. II It's hard for a girl to be sure if She wants to be rescued. I mean, I quite Took to the dragon. It's nice to be Liked, if you know what I mean. He was So nicely physical, with his claws And lovely green skin, and that sexy tail, And the way he looked at me, He made me feel he was all ready to Eat me. And any girl enjoys that. So when this boy turned up, wearing machinery, On a really dangerous horse, to be honest I didn't much fancy him. I mean, What was he like underneath the hardware? He might have acne, blackheads or even Bad breath for all I could tell, but the dragon-- Well, you could see all his equipment At a glance. Still, what could I do? The dragon got himself beaten by the boy, And a girl's got to think of her future. III I have diplomas in Dragon Management and Virgin Reclamation. My horse is the latest model, with Automatic transmission and built-in Obsolescence. My spear is custom-built, And my prototype armour Still on the secret list. You can't Do better than me at the moment. I'm qualified and equipped to the Eyebrow. So why be difficult? Don't you want to be killed and/or rescued In the most contemporary way? Don't You want to carry out the roles That sociology and myth have designed for you? Don't you realize that, by being choosy, You are endangering job prospects In the spear- and horse-building industries? What, in any case, does it matter what You want? You're in my way. From rog3r.day at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 18:31:08 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:31:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Complete List of English Poet LaureateswithXXChromosomes In-Reply-To: <019c01c5b0d3$37892510$21ab3852@ANNY> References: <1f7.114e7c11.304b52db@aol.com> <00e701c5b0c6$73ac6be0$21ab3852@ANNY> <012901c5b0cb$831fdbc0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <019c01c5b0d3$37892510$21ab3852@ANNY> Message-ID: Apologising for this anachronism is turning into a career; as is trying to get rid of the position. It's an embarrassment. Roger On 9/3/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: > And I also notice that James Finnegan was right. > > From: "Bob Grumman" > Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 11:07 PM > > > >> This is an interesting list! > > > > Notice, though, that there is NO BURSTNORM POET on it. > > > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- http://www.badstep.net From rog3r.day at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 18:34:03 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:34:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: On 9/3/05, William Knott wrote: > ...i think Duffy's the best British poet since Larkin and Raine. . . hasn't > she received more critical acclaim and attention than any poet of her > generation? > > Carol who? UA Fanthorp now... -- http://www.badstep.net From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 3 18:40:24 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 18:40:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Complete List of English Poet LaureateswithXXChromosomes Message-ID: <1e4.42d9a112.304b8058@aol.com> In a message dated 9/3/2005 6:31:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, rog3r.day at gmail.com writes: > Apologising for this anachronism is turning into a career; as is > trying to get rid of the position. It's an embarrassment. > Part of the problem is systematic....Doesn't tradition have the UK PL doing a life sentence (unless the poet voluntarily surrenders the appointment). A US poet laureate, once called merely 'Consultant to the Library of Congress', does a couple-year stint, unless he/she proves particularly energetic, like Pinsky, and the shadowy powers-that-be might keep our PL on for second short term. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Sat Sep 3 19:01:59 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 19:01:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3E@mail.emerson.edu> does the fact that she's won all those prizes and had all that critical acclaim and attention mean (for a couple of you at least) that she's not a worthwhile poet? is it a syllogism or what? if that were true, it would be good news for us losers (and aren't we all with one or two exceptions losers on this list, failures in our poetic careers) who have never won any prizes nor received any critical acclaim. . . ....knotthead -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2522 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 19:08:54 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 00:08:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu><017d01c5b0d2$965041b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <0d9601c5b0d7$208b8980$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <017401c5b0dc$74f98350$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> > It may be one of my blocks (my ex-wife, like Bill, thinks she's the greatest > thing since sliced bread) I was at that reading in Luggabarruga, Rob, as was your ex-wife, John Lucas delightfully compered, and Duffy bored supremely, that was when she made the drink remark, you could see, almost as if in a cartoon, people in the audience looking at each other. Confusedly. I remember Caroline, who then lived in the other Leicestershire L place, telling how she'd been at Duffy's daytime reading in the library and how she (caroline) felt like a) falling asleep and b) jumping in the river to end it all. As for Warming Pearls, don't remind me of that, that was where all my woes on poetry lists began. U.A.Fanthorpe is a peach, met her once you know, she is so nice. A few years back, a friend of mine, Karin, was invited to do a support for her at a reading in Nottingham, Karin's act included her then 14-ish year old daughter Jenny, Fanthorpe made sure that at the end the plaudits were focused on Jenny, that says a lot for her. Best Dave .----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy > > Interesting to note that the Iowa plaintext poem is getting as many > > "impressive" awards in Britain as here. > > > > --Bob G. > > Took the words out of my mouth you did, Bob. I don't dislike her work the > way dave does, I just find her utterly boring. Including and perhaps > especially the warming-pearls poem that Bill Knott cited. I just can't see > in her what Bill does. > > It may be one of my blocks (my ex-wife, like Bill, thinks she's the greatest > thing since sliced bread) ... > > No, I'm saying that but I don't believe it. She simply isn't in the same > league as U.A.Fanthorpe, who's not that much different in age. Let alone, > to go back a bit, Stevie Smith. Or Anne Stevenson, if she's lived in > Britain long enough to be naturalised. Or Libby Houston. (Now there's a > *really* under-rated poet for you.) > > I'll see if I can find "Not My Best Side" somewhere on the Web. Put that > beside "Warming Her Pearls", bite it and see. > > (The poem alludes to Paolo Uccello's "St George and the Dragon") > > Robin > > U. A. Fanthorpe > > Not my Best Side > > I > > Not my best side, I'm afraid. > The artist didn't give me a chance to > Pose properly, and as you can see, > Poor chap, he had this obsession with > Triangles, so he left off two of my > Feet. I didn't comment at the time > (What, after all, are two feet > To a monster?) but afterwards > I was sorry for the bad publicity. > Why, I said to myself, should my conqueror > Be so ostentatiously beardless, and ride > A horse with a deformed neck and square hoofs? > Why should my victim be so > Unattractive as to be inedible, > And why should she have me literally > On a string? I don't mind dying > Ritually, since I always rise again, > But I should have liked a little more blood > To show they were taking me seriously. > > II > > It's hard for a girl to be sure if > She wants to be rescued. I mean, I quite > Took to the dragon. It's nice to be > Liked, if you know what I mean. He was > So nicely physical, with his claws > And lovely green skin, and that sexy tail, > And the way he looked at me, > He made me feel he was all ready to > Eat me. And any girl enjoys that. > So when this boy turned up, wearing machinery, > On a really dangerous horse, to be honest > I didn't much fancy him. I mean, > What was he like underneath the hardware? > He might have acne, blackheads or even > Bad breath for all I could tell, but the dragon-- > Well, you could see all his equipment > At a glance. Still, what could I do? > The dragon got himself beaten by the boy, > And a girl's got to think of her future. > > III > > I have diplomas in Dragon > Management and Virgin Reclamation. > My horse is the latest model, with > Automatic transmission and built-in > Obsolescence. My spear is custom-built, > And my prototype armour > Still on the secret list. You can't > Do better than me at the moment. > I'm qualified and equipped to the > Eyebrow. So why be difficult? > Don't you want to be killed and/or rescued > In the most contemporary way? Don't > You want to carry out the roles > That sociology and myth have designed for you? > Don't you realize that, by being choosy, > You are endangering job prospects > In the spear- and horse-building industries? > What, in any case, does it matter what > You want? You're in my way. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 19:11:33 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 00:11:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com><006901c5b0c1$d8946df0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><0cfc01c5b0c6$5973ed70$f29c9951@Robin><00bd01c5b0c8$edebf9a0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><0d2a01c5b0cb$52de7ed0$f29c9951@Robin> <012801c5b0d3$b22bcc50$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <0db401c5b0dc$d426bf50$f29c9951@Robin> > > > and whether you argue that Poet's Laureates began > > > under Plantagenet, > > > > Who? Coeur de Lion's fancy boy? > > Naow, Rob, arguably that great bore Gower, he certainly was approached by > Richard II, so to speak. Well, Gower never called himself Laureate, nor did anyone else call him that, whereas Skelton quite assertively did. (Though I'm with you on Gower and the boredom-factor.) I'm looking at this moment at the (posthumous) +Pithy pleasaunte and profitable workes of maister Skelton, Poete Laureate. Nowe collected and newly published Anno 1568+ (Scolar Press facsimile, which I dug off my shelves earlier in the day because I'd mentioned the [probably not actually by Skelton] "Upon a Deadman's Head" to Joanna Boulter in a different context and couldn't find Scattergood's edition) -- virtually every poem either has "Skelton Laureate" in the title or is signed-off, "Quod Skelton Laureate". Certainly Skelton was a Laureate self-proclaimed, but then so was Petrarch earlier, over the Channel and up the hill. > I haven't received the list of Poet Laureates, if > memory serves it officially began about Dryden's time, Yeah, I think Dryden was the first "official" laureate, couple of gallons of sack and half-a-crown-a-year stipend. > Ben Jonson, for > example, was unofficially so but never thus entitled, Yo. Though I think it was mostly his chums at the Mermaid that he tried that on with. > I suspect Skelton was > probably just Court Idiot in reality. That is just so mind-bogglingly beyond comprehension that I'm not even going to begin to take it on. I'll dig out a couple or so of Skelton's more accessible lyrics, that even a Brummie illiterate like you should look at with awe, and despair, and rest my case. Robin http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/skelbib.htm WITH lullay, lullay, like a child, Thou sleep?st too long, thou art beguiled! "My darling dear, my daisy flower, Let me," quoth he, "lie in your lap." "Lie still," quoth she, "my paramour, Lie still hardily, and take a nap." His head was heavy, such was his hap, All drowsy, dreaming, drowned in sleep, That of his love he took no keep, With hey, lullay, etc. With ba, ba, ba, and bas, bas, bas! She cherished him both cheek and chin That he wist never where he was; He had forgotten all deadly sin! He wanted wit her love to win: He trusted her payment and lost all his pay; She left him sleeping and stale away, With hey, lullay, etc. The rivers rough, the waters wan; She spar?d not to wet her feet. She waded over, she found a man That hals?d her heartily and kissed her sweet; Thus after her cold she caught a heat. "My lief," she said, "rowteth in his bed; Iwys he hath an heavy head," With hey, lullay, etc. What dreamest thou, drunkard, drowsy pate? Thy lust and liking is from thee gone; Thou blinkard blowboll, thou wak?st too late; Behold thou liest, luggard, alone! Well may thou sigh, well may thou groan, To deal with her so cowardly. Ywis, pole-hatchet, she blear?d thine eye! Quoth Skelton Laureate. MANERLY MARGERY MYLK AND ALE. AY, besherewe yow, be my fay, This wanton clarkes be nyse all way ; Avent, avent, my popagay ! What, will ye do no thyng but play ? Tully valy, strawe, let be, I say ! Gup, Cristian Clowte, gup, Jak of the vale ! With, Manerly Margery Mylk and Ale. Be God, ye be a praty pode, And I loue you an hole cart lode. Strawe, Jamys foder, ye play the fode, I am no hakney for your rode ; Go watch a bole, your bak is brode ! Gup, Cristian Clowte, gup, Jak of the vale ! With, Manerly Margery Mylk and Ale. I wiss ye dele vncurtesly ; What wolde ye frompill me ? now, fy ! What, and ye shalbe my piggesnye ? Be Crist, ye shall not, no hardely ; I will not be japed bodely ! Gup, Cristian Clowte, gup, Jak of the vale ! With, Manerly Margery Mylk and Ale. Walke forth your way, ye cost me nought ; Now haue I fowned that I haue sought, The best chepe flessh that euyr I bought. Yet, for His loue that all hath wrought, Wed me, or els I dye for thought ! Gup, Cristian Clowte, your breth is stale ! Go, Manerly Margery Mylk and Ale ! Gup, Cristian Clowte, gup, Jak of the vale ! With, Manerly Margery Mylk and Ale. WOMANHOD, wanton, ye want ; Youre medelyng, mastres, is manerles ; Plente of yll, of goodnes skant, Ye rayll at ryot, recheles : To prayse youre porte it is nedeles ; For all your draffe yet and youre dreggys, As well borne as ye full oft tyme beggys. Why so koy and full of skorne? Myne horse is sold, I wene, you say ; My new furryd gowne, when it is worne, Put vp youre purs, ye shall non pay. By crede, I trust to se the day, As proud a pohen as ye sprede, Of me and other ye may haue nede. Though angelyk be youre smylyng, Yet is youre tong an adders tayle, Full lyke a scorpyon styngyng All those by whom ye haue auayle : Good mastres Anne, there ye do shayle : What prate ye, praty pyggysny? I truste to quyte you or I dy. Youre key is mete for euery lok, Youre key is commen and hangyth owte ; Youre key is redy, we nede not knok, Nor stand long wrestyng there aboute ; Of youre doregate ye haue no doute : But one thyng is, that ye be lewde : Holde youre tong now, all beshrewde ! To mastres Anne, that farly swete, That wonnes at the Key in Temmys strete. From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 19:19:26 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 00:19:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Complete List of English PoetLaureateswithXXChromosomes References: <1e4.42d9a112.304b8058@aol.com> Message-ID: <019501c5b0dd$edbdb120$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Yeah, James, a UK PL is normally a life-sentence, like Hughes, Day-Lewis, Betjeman etc. I can't recall actually if any did resign, but I would be interested to see your idea of who the UK PL's were, it hasn't come through to me, unlike every other post! My memory tells me that the first official PL was Dryden, but its late at night here and I might be wrong. There were certainly precusors, like Ben Jonson or Skelton or Gower but I don't think they actually had the title. Best dave ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 11:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Complete List of English PoetLaureateswithXXChromosomes In a message dated 9/3/2005 6:31:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, rog3r.day at gmail.com writes: Apologising for this anachronism is turning into a career; as is trying to get rid of the position. It's an embarrassment. Part of the problem is systematic....Doesn't tradition have the UK PL doing a life sentence (unless the poet voluntarily surrenders the appointment). A US poet laureate, once called merely 'Consultant to the Library of Congress', does a couple-year stint, unless he/she proves particularly energetic, like Pinsky, and the shadowy powers-that-be might keep our PL on for second short term. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Sep 3 19:36:09 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:36:09 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION Message-ID: <01eb01c5b0e0$43636f00$21ab3852@ANNY> Just posted on my blog. I have been thinking mainly of New Orleans in the last coupla o' days. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: anny.ballardini at tin.it Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:28 AM Subject: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION . I have a question, where is Europe, Japan, some other countries. Don't Americans always run to help people around the world? Australia? Canada? Is everybody deaf and blind suddenly? Do they have tongues and money only to broadcast looting and violence and wrong American policies (to hide their own)? . -- Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 9/04/2005 01:25:00 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 19:41:38 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 00:41:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3E@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <0de601c5b0e1$081485a0$f29c9951@Robin> << does the fact that she's won all those prizes and had all that critical acclaim and attention mean (for a couple of you at least) that she's not a worthwhile poet? is it a syllogism or what? >> Nobody is saying that, Bill. But equally, the fact that she's won a raft of prizes counts diddly squat as to her poetic achievement. I have to say that when I see a poet defended in terms of "critical acclaim" or success or publication or whatever, it seems to me I'm being asking me to check my brains and critical judgement in at the cloakroom in the foyer. The publication/success equation doesn't commute -- while (on the whole and with exceptions, pace Bob Grumman) good poets tend to get published, being published and winning prizes is no *necessary* guarantor of merit. << if that were true, it would be good news for us losers (and aren't we all with one or two exceptions losers on this list, failures in our poetic careers) who have never won any prizes nor received any critical acclaim. . . >> Hey, Bill, you were the one who started this "acclaim equals merit" equation. Frankly, I'd be quite happy to play. Are you saying we ought to be respected on this list in proportion to the number of prizes we've won, or the prestige of the journals we've been published in? See you and raise you. Thank god my CV isn't on the Web. This is getting beyond silly. Oh, right, a bottom line -- how long has anyone on this list lived *directly* off their writing, either prizes, awards or royalties? And I don't mean living off a salary for teaching an MFA degree. Hrmph!!! Robin ....knotthead ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Sep 3 19:42:53 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:42:53 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: A new post Message-ID: <020901c5b0e1$340fad60$21ab3852@ANNY> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lance Phillips" To: Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:38 AM Subject: A new post > Hello all, > > I was meant to post an interview with Canadian poet Jason Camlot > tonight but in stead have posted (with her permission) part of a post to > the Lucifer Poetics Group listserv from Laura Mullen a writer whose work > many of you may know. She lives in Baton Rouge, LA. I've also posted > another email meant to be forwarded by Jordan Flaherty of > www.leftturn.org and an email containing a lot of information about > where to give money and alternative media sources. There are also links > to The Red Cross, The Salvation Army, Americorp, The Department of > Health and Human Service, The White House, The House of Representatives > and the Senate. I would be great if you could forward the post or a > link to the post to anyone you can. Thanks, > > Lance > > ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( > Lance Phillips > http://lancephillips.blogspot.com [web log] > Writers on writing at http://herecomeseverybody.blogspot.com > Corpus Socius (Ahsahta Press) ISBN 0-916272-71-0 > http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu/books/phillips.htm > Cur aliquid vidi (Ahsahta Press) ISBN 0-916272-82-6 > http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu/books/phillips2.htm > ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) > > > From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 19:44:53 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 00:44:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' References: <7a.7ae26ed3.304b4d63@aol.com><006901c5b0c1$d8946df0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><0cfc01c5b0c6$5973ed70$f29c9951@Robin><00bd01c5b0c8$edebf9a0$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><0d2a01c5b0cb$52de7ed0$f29c9951@Robin><012801c5b0d3$b22bcc50$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <0db401c5b0dc$d426bf50$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <01ad01c5b0e1$7bf79340$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> I do have a slight prejudice against Skelton as having first encountered him via Robert Graves's force-feeding, however, having read all of Skelton (I think) - certainly all that's on the CH database - I reckon I can say he doesn't do for me. It may be a matter of ear, something jars all the time to me. I dunno. Anyhow, in recent weeks I've been telling Lydia about Michael Drayton, the author of Poly-Olbion, I wonder how many people on this or other lists have even heard about that let alone read it, but Lyds reckons one of her daughters has actually found a blue plaque place in London where Drayton actually once lived (this since my saying) More to come Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 'It's not facts, it's emotion' > > > > and whether you argue that Poet's Laureates began > > > > under Plantagenet, > > > > > > Who? Coeur de Lion's fancy boy? > > > > Naow, Rob, arguably that great bore Gower, he certainly was approached by > > Richard II, so to speak. > > Well, Gower never called himself Laureate, nor did anyone else call him > that, whereas Skelton quite assertively did. > > (Though I'm with you on Gower and the boredom-factor.) > > I'm looking at this moment at the (posthumous) +Pithy pleasaunte and > profitable workes of maister Skelton, Poete Laureate. Nowe collected and > newly published Anno 1568+ (Scolar Press facsimile, which I dug off my > shelves earlier in the day because I'd mentioned the [probably not actually > by Skelton] "Upon a Deadman's Head" to Joanna Boulter in a different context > and couldn't find Scattergood's edition) -- virtually every poem either has > "Skelton Laureate" in the title or is signed-off, "Quod Skelton Laureate". > > Certainly Skelton was a Laureate self-proclaimed, but then so was Petrarch > earlier, over the Channel and up the hill. > > > I haven't received the list of Poet Laureates, if > > memory serves it officially began about Dryden's time, > > Yeah, I think Dryden was the first "official" laureate, couple of gallons of > sack and half-a-crown-a-year stipend. > > > Ben Jonson, for > > example, was unofficially so but never thus entitled, > > Yo. Though I think it was mostly his chums at the Mermaid that he tried > that on with. > > > I suspect Skelton was > > probably just Court Idiot in reality. > > That is just so mind-bogglingly beyond comprehension that I'm not even going > to begin to take it on. I'll dig out a couple or so of Skelton's more > accessible lyrics, that even a Brummie illiterate like you should look at > with awe, and despair, and rest my case. > > Robin > > http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/skelbib.htm > > > WITH lullay, lullay, like a child, > Thou sleep?st too long, thou art beguiled! > "My darling dear, my daisy flower, > Let me," quoth he, "lie in your lap." > "Lie still," quoth she, "my paramour, > Lie still hardily, and take a nap." > His head was heavy, such was his hap, > All drowsy, dreaming, drowned in sleep, > That of his love he took no keep, > With hey, lullay, etc. > > With ba, ba, ba, and bas, bas, bas! > She cherished him both cheek and chin > That he wist never where he was; > He had forgotten all deadly sin! > He wanted wit her love to win: > He trusted her payment and lost all his pay; > She left him sleeping and stale away, > With hey, lullay, etc. > > The rivers rough, the waters wan; > She spar?d not to wet her feet. > She waded over, she found a man > That hals?d her heartily and kissed her sweet; > Thus after her cold she caught a heat. > "My lief," she said, "rowteth in his bed; > Iwys he hath an heavy head," > With hey, lullay, etc. > > What dreamest thou, drunkard, drowsy pate? > Thy lust and liking is from thee gone; > Thou blinkard blowboll, thou wak?st too late; > Behold thou liest, luggard, alone! > Well may thou sigh, well may thou groan, > To deal with her so cowardly. > Ywis, pole-hatchet, she blear?d thine eye! > Quoth Skelton Laureate. > > > > MANERLY MARGERY MYLK AND ALE. > > > AY, besherewe yow, be my fay, > This wanton clarkes be nyse all way ; > Avent, avent, my popagay ! > What, will ye do no thyng but play ? > Tully valy, strawe, let be, I say ! > Gup, Cristian Clowte, gup, Jak of the vale ! > With, Manerly Margery Mylk and Ale. > > Be God, ye be a praty pode, > And I loue you an hole cart lode. > Strawe, Jamys foder, ye play the fode, > I am no hakney for your rode ; > Go watch a bole, your bak is brode ! > Gup, Cristian Clowte, gup, Jak of the vale ! > With, Manerly Margery Mylk and Ale. > > I wiss ye dele vncurtesly ; > What wolde ye frompill me ? now, fy ! > What, and ye shalbe my piggesnye ? > Be Crist, ye shall not, no hardely ; > I will not be japed bodely ! > Gup, Cristian Clowte, gup, Jak of the vale ! > With, Manerly Margery Mylk and Ale. > > Walke forth your way, ye cost me nought ; > Now haue I fowned that I haue sought, > The best chepe flessh that euyr I bought. > Yet, for His loue that all hath wrought, > Wed me, or els I dye for thought ! > Gup, Cristian Clowte, your breth is stale ! > Go, Manerly Margery Mylk and Ale ! > Gup, Cristian Clowte, gup, Jak of the vale ! > With, Manerly Margery Mylk and Ale. > > > > > WOMANHOD, wanton, ye want ; > Youre medelyng, mastres, is manerles ; > Plente of yll, of goodnes skant, > Ye rayll at ryot, recheles : > To prayse youre porte it is nedeles ; > For all your draffe yet and youre dreggys, > As well borne as ye full oft tyme beggys. > > Why so koy and full of skorne? > Myne horse is sold, I wene, you say ; > My new furryd gowne, when it is worne, > Put vp youre purs, ye shall non pay. > By crede, I trust to se the day, > As proud a pohen as ye sprede, > Of me and other ye may haue nede. > > Though angelyk be youre smylyng, > Yet is youre tong an adders tayle, > Full lyke a scorpyon styngyng > All those by whom ye haue auayle : > Good mastres Anne, there ye do shayle : > What prate ye, praty pyggysny? > I truste to quyte you or I dy. > > Youre key is mete for euery lok, > Youre key is commen and hangyth owte ; > Youre key is redy, we nede not knok, > Nor stand long wrestyng there aboute ; > Of youre doregate ye haue no doute : > But one thyng is, that ye be lewde : > Holde youre tong now, all beshrewde ! > > To mastres Anne, that farly swete, > That wonnes at the Key in Temmys strete. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 20:09:36 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:09:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu><017d01c5b0d2$965041b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><0d9601c5b0d7$208b8980$f29c9951@Robin> <017401c5b0dc$74f98350$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <0e1301c5b0e4$f018db00$f29c9951@Robin> > > It may be one of my blocks (my ex-wife, like Bill, thinks she's the > greatest > > thing since sliced bread) > > I was at that reading in Luggabarruga, Rob, as was your ex-wife, John Lucas > delightfully compered, and Duffy bored supremely, that was when she made the > drink remark, you could see, almost as if in a cartoon, people in the > audience looking at each other. Confusedly. Um, dave, I think your mis-spent life is catching up with you, and your brain is turning to mush. Or are we thinking of different readings? As far as I know, the only reading at Loughborough that you and I both attended -- or the three of us, if you include ex-Mary who was there independently -- was by an Australian poet in the Town Hall. John Lucas wasn't there, let alone compering. Or are you thinking of a different reading? To my knowledge, I've never heard CAD read, and given my more than slightly negative response to her poetry on the page, I wouldn't cross the road to hear her. Deeply puzzled Scotsman here. > U.A.Fanthorpe is a peach, met her once you know, she is so nice. A few years > back, a friend of mine, Karin, was invited to do a support for her at a > reading in Nottingham, Karin's act included her then 14-ish year old > daughter Jenny, Fanthorpe made sure that at the end the plaudits were > focused on Jenny, that says a lot for her. Yo. Concur. Though I had a backchannel from Joanna to the following effect. (a) Women on the whole like Carol Ann Duffy more than men (b) CAD was born in 1955 whereas U.A.Fanthorpe is 70 years old (c) I was into the apples and oranges syndrome in rating one against the other. ... and as an aside, that she was surprised that I'd even heard of Libby Houston. Dunno. I still think Fanthorpe is in a totally different league from Duffy, so to me it's not apples and oranges (which challenge had crossed my mind when I raised the comparison). Cheers, Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 20:19:31 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:19:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Urban Language Poetry -- was Re: Setting Hair-dye References: <33abf275050901053820d134c3@mail.gmail.com><21d301c5aefd$9aae4bc0$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090108597ba3f910@mail.gmail.com><223a01c5af12$39d3a150$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090112592f710674@mail.gmail.com><230e01c5af3d$d452f700$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090118164860320a@mail.gmail.com><33abf27505090118175dfbeb03@mail.gmail.com><24a501c5afbe$13fc3530$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505090206426118aa81@mail.gmail.com><251601c5afc7$4debf830$f29c9951@Robin> <004501c5b01b$bc234200$71ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <0e1401c5b0e6$52cf4850$f29c9951@Robin> dave bircumshaw said: > I was showing Lydia some Tom Leonard poems tonight, she definitely > likes them btw, Well, I should hope so. The text to get for starters is +Intimate Voices+. Some poems at his Web site: http://www.tomleonard.co.uk/ ... all of The Six Glasgow Poems are there. There were non-couthy urban Glasgow poems before 1966, most notably Ian Hamilton Finlay's +Glasgow Beasts, an a Burd+, but the engine only finally kicked into gear with SGP. +Mungo's Tongues: 1630-1990+ ed. Hamish Whyte (1993) is pretty comprehensive for the period specified. But thinking about this, I'm aware that I tend to think in terms not of non-universal language poetry (OK, "dialect"), nor even of Scottish language poetry (I don't know as much of Bill Herbert's work, coming out of Dundee, as I should, for example) but specifically of urban Glasgow poetry. I ordered from amazon.co.uk last night, in order of desire, the following: "Last Tango with Magritte (Wild Women S.)" Lydia Robb; Paperback; ?6.95 "Mr and Mrs Scotland Are Dead: Poems 1980-1994" Kathleen Jamie; Paperback; ?8.95 "Whit Lassyz Ur Inty" Alison Flett; Paperback; ?6.99 I came on Lydia Robb really not that long ago via a poem of hers that Peter Cudmore put up on another list. (I'll include it at the end of this, hoping Peter won't mind.) As far as I can make out, there's absolutely nothing of hers on the Web, but it turns out that she's been published in a (literal) broadsheet called Poetry Scotland: http://www.poetryscotland.co.uk/ She's had poems published in five issues (titles and issues on the above website) but the unlikely thing is that back issues are being sold for 50p including p&p, so I sent off a cheque. I've never subscribed to Poetry Scotland but I've seen copies, and it's easily worth 50p an issue. I think I'll leave this at that for the moment. More possibly when the books arrive. This post was intended to make more sense than it's turned out to do. I blame this on Interruptions, and that it's now after midnight. Robin A poem Lydia Robb wrote about a Tom Leonard performance: We Kin Laffatit Noo the lie brurry that's whurrit wiz a poetry re ding by whitziz name red uz a six wurd poem wi the obligiturry four letter word thrownin turdsanat ken right enuff tellt uz his languij wiz disgraceful red uz anither that soondit like a shoapin list we dun the wrang thing snickert shooda seeniz face he sez tipicil thickiz shitn a boatl the lottya ah gee up kenma heed duzny buttn up the back if ye dinny unnerston jiss fuckaff gawn ootma road (Chapman 77) From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 3 20:20:32 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 20:20:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3E@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <01cf01c5b0e6$76ebaad0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >does the fact that she's won all those prizes and had all >that critical acclaim and attention mean (for a couple of >you at least) >that she's not a worthwhile poet? is it a >syllogism or what? Close to it. But I was reacting to her poetry, which I thought poor, from the examples you gave us. >if that were true, it would be good news for us losers >and aren't we all >with one or two exceptions losers on >this list, failures in our poetic >careers) who have never >won any prizes nor received any critical acclaim. >. . ....knotthead It's bad news that medocrities tend to win prizes--and no help to losers since one can never be sure whether one's lack of prizes is due to one's being a good poet, or being even worse than the prize winners. And some of the prize winners are good--or, much more often, WERE good long before they finally started winning prizes, and could have used one. --Bob G. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Faustina1 at aol.com Sat Sep 3 20:40:22 2005 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 20:40:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Complete List of English PoetLaureateswithXXChromosomes Message-ID: Ah, but the list was of women PL's--and it came through loud and clear...Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 20:38:01 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:38:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu><017d01c5b0d2$965041b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><0d9601c5b0d7$208b8980$f29c9951@Robin><017401c5b0dc$74f98350$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <0e1301c5b0e4$f018db00$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <01cc01c5b0e9$53678950$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> No, Rob, my brain hasn't yet turned to mush, though it might do soon, the reading I'm refering to was aty Lugga Uni well before I ever knew you but your ex was one of the audience and some years later it cropped up in conv between us. You weren't there, I didn't know you then nor your ex, but I was with my old flame Caroline, who lived on Gladstone Rd, your ex was apparently at the same reading and mentioned the reading to you. I know what the other matter is you are on about but that's not the same event. Ok best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:09 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy > > > It may be one of my blocks (my ex-wife, like Bill, thinks she's the > > greatest > > > thing since sliced bread) > > > > I was at that reading in Luggabarruga, Rob, as was your ex-wife, John > Lucas > > delightfully compered, and Duffy bored supremely, that was when she made > the > > drink remark, you could see, almost as if in a cartoon, people in the > > audience looking at each other. Confusedly. > > Um, dave, I think your mis-spent life is catching up with you, and your > brain is turning to mush. Or are we thinking of different readings? As far > as I know, the only reading at Loughborough that you and I both attended -- > or the three of us, if you include ex-Mary who was there independently -- > was by an Australian poet in the Town Hall. John Lucas wasn't there, let > alone compering. Or are you thinking of a different reading? To my > knowledge, I've never heard CAD read, and given my more than slightly > negative response to her poetry on the page, I wouldn't cross the road to > hear her. > > Deeply puzzled Scotsman here. > > > U.A.Fanthorpe is a peach, met her once you know, she is so nice. A few > years > > back, a friend of mine, Karin, was invited to do a support for her at a > > reading in Nottingham, Karin's act included her then 14-ish year old > > daughter Jenny, Fanthorpe made sure that at the end the plaudits were > > focused on Jenny, that says a lot for her. > > Yo. Concur. Though I had a backchannel from Joanna to the following > effect. > > (a) Women on the whole like Carol Ann Duffy more than men > > (b) CAD was born in 1955 whereas U.A.Fanthorpe is 70 years old > > (c) I was into the apples and oranges syndrome in rating one against the > other. > > ... and as an aside, that she was surprised that I'd even heard of Libby > Houston. > > Dunno. I still think Fanthorpe is in a totally different league from Duffy, > so to me it's not apples and oranges (which challenge had crossed my mind > when I raised the comparison). > > Cheers, > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 3 20:54:48 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:54:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu><017d01c5b0d2$965041b0$74b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><0d9601c5b0d7$208b8980$f29c9951@Robin><017401c5b0dc$74f98350$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><0e1301c5b0e4$f018db00$f29c9951@Robin> <01cc01c5b0e9$53678950$b5ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <0e6901c5b0eb$40a18ee0$f29c9951@Robin> Ah, right, with you now, dave. It's *my* brain that's turning to mush, then. :-( Cheers, Robin (It was the "that reading" that threw me, I think. R.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bircumshaw" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:38 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy > No, Rob, my brain hasn't yet turned to mush, though it might do soon, the > reading I'm refering to was aty Lugga Uni well before I ever knew you but > your ex was one of the audience and some years later it cropped up in conv > between us. You weren't there, I didn't know you then nor your ex, but I was > with my old flame Caroline, who lived on Gladstone Rd, your ex was > apparently at the same reading and mentioned the reading to you. > > I know what the other matter is you are on about but that's not the same > event. > > Ok > > best > > Dave From elemenope at icubed.com Sat Sep 3 22:22:25 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 10:22:25 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 I HAVE A QUESTION (Anny Ballardini) Shameful: Only 25 Nations Offer Help to the U.S. In-Reply-To: <200509032330.j83NUUiT010407@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200509032330.j83NUUiT010407@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Shameful: Only 25 Nations Offer Help to the U.S. Stewart Stogel Friday, Sept. 2, 2005 When the Indian Ocean tsunami devastated many nations across Asia in December, the United States rushed to the aid of victims by pledging hundreds of millions of dollars in assistance - just as it has offered aid whenever a natural disaster strikes in another country. Now the U.S. is facing a catastrophe of its own from Hurricane Katrina. Though the U.N.'s own top official for disaster relief has called Katrina one of "the largest, most destructive natural disasters ever," shamefully only a handful of nations - at last count just 25 nations of the 191 countries in the United Nations - have come forward to offer assistance. And almost none have offered what America has so often provided: money. And the aid so far offered by foreign nations amounts to a drop in the bucket considering the anticipated multi-billion-dollar cost of dealing with the immediate crisis and the reconstruction to follow. President Bush has urged Americans to send cash donations to private relief organizations rather than in-kind contributions such as clothing and food. The same could be applied to foreign nations, most of which have been on the receiving end of massive financial assistance from then U.S. over the years. President Bush told ABC-TV Thursday morning: "I'm not expecting much from foreign nations because we hadn't asked for it. I do expect a lot of sympathy and perhaps some will send cash dollars. "We would love help, but we're going to take care of our own business as well, and there's no doubt in my mind we'll succeed." Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has decided that "no offer that can help alleviate the suffering of the people in the afflicted area will be refused," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said. The American 'Tsunami' The offers of assistance so far pale in comparison to the aid pledged by the U.S. for tsunami relief, including $346 million from the U.S. Agency for International Development and the Defense Department for their relief efforts, $339 million for reconstruction and $168 million to help victims with food, shelter, housing and education. In addition, a private fund-raising campaign led by former Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton brought in more than $1 billion for tsunami victims. In fact, at least one-third of American households have donated money to an aid group in tsunami-hit nations. Now the U.S. is trying to deal with the "American tsunami." U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan acknowledged the extent of the disaster, saying through a spokesman: "The damage is far worse than any of us imagined at first. The American people - who have always been the most generous in responding to disasters in other parts of the world - have now themselves suffered a grievous blow." But he went on to add: "Of course the United States is also the country in the world best prepared to cope with such a disaster." While Annan has not spoken directly with President Bush, he did meet with America's U.N. ambassador John Bolton to convey the U.N.'s readiness to help. While it is true that America indeed is a wealthy nation, a sentiment of help and support would be appropriate and courteous. Apparently, most nations do not believe in courtesy. Of the nations that have offered assistance to the U.S., few have offered money. China, for example, presented $100,000 to the American Red Cross. Russia has offered boats and aircraft. On Wednesday, Russian president Vladimir Putin offered to send a group of military special forces specializing in search and rescue to the region. That offer was rejected by the State Department. Japan has promised tents, blankets and generators. Even France offered a fire brigade. Germany is willing to provide communications equipment. Israel, which receives $2.2 billion in U.S. aid each year, has offered to send doctors, nurses, technicians and other experts in dealing with natural disasters, as well as field hospitals and medical kits. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a vocal critic of the U.S., made a mocking offer to send cheap fuel and relief workers to the stricken area. At about the same time he used the disaster as an opportunity to attack President Bush, calling him a "cowboy" who failed to manage the disaster. Other nations that have offered some form of aid include Mexico, Canada, Jamaica, Honduras, the UK, Greece, the Netherlands, South Korea, Switzerland, Colombia, the United Arab Emirates and Australia. "They're the most powerful, wealthiest country in the world, but when something like this strikes, the poor and the vulnerable are the same all around the world," said Australian Prime Minister John Howard. Ingratitude One nation not on the list is oil-rich Kuwait, which owes its very existence to America's liberation effort following Iraq's invasion. In fact, a high-ranking Kuwaiti official has said Hurricane Katrina was sent by Allah, adding that "disaster will keep striking the unbelievers." No matter how much foreign aid does arrive in the U.S., it's clear that America will have to shoulder almost all the financial burden in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. The size of that burden became clear when President Bush asked Congress for an initial appropriation of $10 billion. Officials say the total cost of dealing with the reconstruction will be as high as $50 billion. Meanwhile, the U.S. could find itself with a new security nightmare. As the Pentagon prepares to send as many as 50,000 troops to the disaster region, the White House must also find the manpower for the U.N.'s special summit, due to convene in New York on September 12. More than 150 heads of state are expected to attend. One topic slated for discussion is progress in relief for victims of the Indian Ocean tsunami. Said one U.N. official: "Now we have something new to add to the agenda." In addition to Katrina, one topic the U.N. might include on their agenda: ingratitude. Nations That Have Offered Katrina Hurricane Aid: Russia Japan Canada France Honduras Germany Venezuela Jamaica Australia UK/Northern Ireland Netherlands Switzerland Greece Hungary Colombia Dominican Republic El Salvador Mexico China South Korea Israel United Arab Emirates Taiwan Sri Lanka Singapore >Just posted on my blog. I have been thinking mainly of New Orleans >in the last coupla o' days. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Anny Ballardini >To: anny.ballardini at tin.it >Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:28 AM >Subject: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION > > >. >I have a question, > >where is Europe, Japan, some other countries. Don't Americans always >run to help people around the world? Australia? Canada? Is everybody >deaf and blind suddenly? Do they have tongues and money only to >broadcast looting and violence and wrong American policies (to hide >their own)? >. > >-- >Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 9/04/2005 01:25:00 AM -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Sun Sep 4 03:55:45 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 03:55:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] two syllogisms Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3F@mail.emerson.edu> Two syllogisms 1 Carol Ann Duffy has won many Prizes Honors and Awards: ergo, she must be a good (or great) poet... 2 i haven't won any Prizes Honors and Awards: ergo, i must be a bad poet .. ...knotthead -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2363 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Sep 4 04:27:21 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 10:27:21 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 I HAVE A QUESTION (Anny Ballardini) Shameful: Only 25 Nations Offer Help to the U.S. References: <200509032330.j83NUUiT010407@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <004201c5b12a$78c6bb80$4ed93052@ANNY> 20 I HAVE A QUESTION (Anny Ballardini) Shameful: OnlyHi dear Richard, thank you for your answer that got me in the bluest mood possible. Luckily I asked the same question on the WOM-PO list and I will copy and paste Yerra Sugarman's most sensitive answer and another lady b/c-ed to add this link: http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050903/NEWS06/509030480 and comment that maybe the news did not receive enough coverage because the Secretary of State was on vacation and the Vice-President is still. For those who live abroad as I do, this is important. We need to know where we are and what we are doing here. It is in moments like these that fundamental questions are asked. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Qatar offers $100m to relief fund (CNN) -- The oil-rich nation of Qatar has offered the United States $100 million to assist in the humanitarian crisis triggered by Hurricane Katrina. The state-run Qatar News Agency said Saturday that Qatar's emir, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, decided to contribute that amount for relief "and humanitarian supplies for the victims of this disaster." The U.S. government has received offers of support from dozens of nations across the globe. As of Friday, the White House had not accepted any offers, but Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the State Department was "working very closely with the Department of Homeland Security to match up what is available with what is needed." There was no immediate word whether the United States would take Qatar up on its offer. Other offers of aid and assistance have come in from countries around the world -- including from India, Sri Lanka, Thailand and Indonesia, the four countries hardest-hit by the December 26 Asian tsunami. The State Department said offers of help had been received from more than 50 countries, including: Australia, Austria, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Belgium, Canada, China, Columbia, Cuba, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, France, Germany, Guatemala, Greece, Guyana, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Paraguay, Philippines, Portugal, South Korea, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Slovakia, Spain, Sri Lanka, Switzerland, Sweden, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, United Kingdom, the United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela. International organizations also offered help ranging from medical teams to tents to cash donations. They include NATO, the Organization of American States, the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, and the World Health Organization. The United Nations has offered to help coordinate international relief. State Department officials have not yet said if any of these offers -- beyond specific offers of cash to humanitarian organization -- have been accepted. Following is a list of some of the aid offered by governments. -- Sri Lanka has offered what it called a "token contribution" of $25,000 through the American Red Cross. -- Mexico has offered $1 million and is sending 15 truckloads of water, food and medical supplies via Texas. The Mexican navy has offered to send two ships, two helicopters and 15 amphibious vehicles. -- Australia is giving A$10 million ($7.6 million), most of it to the American Red Cross. -- China has offered $5 million. -- India is making a $5 million donation to the American Red Cross, Ambassador Ronen Sen said Saturday. In addition, Sen said India was willing to donate essential medicines to the relief effort, noting that India has the largest number of Food and Drug Administration-recognized pharmaceutical companies outside the United States. -- -- Germany has offered a wide range of assistance including evacuation by air, medical services, transportation services, water treatment capabilities, assistance in searching for victims, vaccination teams and supplies, and emergency shelter. Germany has also said it is ready and willing to "dip into its own emergency oil reserves" to release some 2 million barrels a day for 30 days. -- France has offered mobile help from the French Antilles, which is relatively close to the affected regions, including a civil defense detachment of 35 people, tents, camp beds, generators, motor pumps, water treatment units and emergency kits, two CASA cargo aircraft, a ship (Batral Francis Garnier) and the frigate Ventose with its Panther helicopter, and a hurricane disaster unit (20 soldiers and 900 kg of specialized supplies and medical support). -- France has also offered assistance from the French mainland including: one or two C-135 planes, one A-310 aircraft , and four C-160 Transalls, an airborne emergency unit. In addition, the NGO Telecoms Sans Frontieres, which specializes in restoring phone lines and Internet service in disasters, is ready to send a team of experts and equipment. Veolia Environment, which has facilities in Louisiana, has offered to make its local water management resources available to the American authorities or the Red Cross. It can also quickly send in a team of hydraulic experts. -- Japan has offered to provide $200,000 to the American Red Cross. The government of Japan will identify needs in the affected regions through the U.S. government and, upon request, is ready to provide necessary and available emergency assistance supply amounting to up to $300,000 worth of items such as tents, blankets, power generators, portable water tanks and more from a supply depot maintained by the Japanese government in Florida. -- Cuba's President Fidel Castro said on Friday his nation was ready to send 1,100 doctors and 26 tons of medicine and equipment. Asia AUSTRALIA: "We're going to provide A$10 million ($7.6 million) and the bulk of that money, if not all of it, will go to the American Red Cross," said Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer. The Australian government said there may be up to 24 Australians trapped in Louisiana in the aftermath of Katrina. CHINA: China offered $5 million in aid for victims of Hurricane Katrina which devastated the Gulf Coast ahead of President Hu Jintao's U.S. visit. If needed, the Chinese government is also prepared to send rescue workers, including medical experts, officials said. JAPAN: Will provide $200,000 to the American Red Cross to assist victims of Hurricane Katrina, the Japanese Foreign Ministry said on Friday. Japan will also identify needs in affected regions via the U.S. government and will provide up to $300,000 in emergency supplies such as tents, blankets and power generators if it receives requests for such assistance, the ministry said. SINGAPORE: The Singapore Armed Forces, responding to requests by the United States Texas Army National Guard, has sent three Chinook helicopters to Fort Polk, Louisiana, to help in relief efforts. The government said the Chinooks will help to ferry supplies and undertake airlift missions. SOUTH KOREA: Has pledged aid and is waiting for a U.S. response, a government official said. "We have sent our intention to offer recovery aid," a Foreign Ministry official said on Friday. SRI LANKA: Will donate $25,000 to the American Red Cross. TAIWAN: Has pledged more than $3 million to the relief effort. Americas CANADA: Offered to help in any way it can and the navy is preparing a ship full of emergency disaster relief supplies to be sent when a request comes. CUBA: Cuban President Fidel Castro offered to fly 1,100 doctors to Houston with 26 tonnes of medicine to treat disaster victims. MEXICO: The country is sending 15 truckloads of water, food and medical supplies via Texas and the Mexican navy has offered to send two ships, two helicopters and 15 amphibious vehicles. VENEZUELA: President Hugo Chavez, a vocal critic of the United States, offered to send cheap fuel, humanitarian aid and relief workers to the disaster area. Europe EUROPEAN UNION: EU countries are ready to give the United States oil if it requests help, EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said on Friday. But British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said this was not what the EU had in mind when it discussed how to help. FRANCE: Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said France was ready to offer support, telling TF1 television: "We have rescue teams based in the Caribbean and we are naturally ready to provide aid to the Americans, and that is what we have told them." GERMANY: Has offered mobile units to provide clean water, military hospital facilities and medical aid. ITALY: Has offered to "immediately" send aid and evacuation specialists, Italy's civil protection unit said. Authorities have prepared two military transport planes to fly amphibious vessels, pumps, generators, tents and personnel to New Orleans and other areas. They were awaiting word from U.S. officials, the unit said. NETHERLANDS: Will provide teams for inspecting dykes and for identifying victims if there is a formal request from the United States. It will also send a frigate from Curacao to New Orleans shortly to provide emergency assistance, the government said. RUSSIA: Has offered to help with rescue efforts, but is still awaiting a reply from Washington. "Above all with heavy transport planes, which can be loaded with helicopters and generators -- as there is no electricity in the area of the catastrophe," Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said. SPAIN: Expects to receive a formal request to release gasoline stocks to the United States and is prepared to grant it, an Industry Ministry spokesman said. SWEDEN: The Rescue Authority said it was on stand-by to supply water purifying equipment, healthcare supplies and emergency shelters if needed. UNITED KINGDOM: British Prime Minister Tony Blair has said Britain stands ready to help the United States in whatever way it can. Middle East SAUDI ARABIA - Saudi Refining, a Houston-based subsidiary of state oil firm Saudi Aramco, will donate $5 million to the American Red Cross to support relief efforts for victims of Hurricane Katrina. CNN State Department Correspondent Andrea Koppel contributed to this report -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yerra Sugarman also adds the following link to the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/international/americas/04offers.html My best wishes, Anny -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ELEMENOPE Productions Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 4:22 AM Shameful: Only 25 Nations Offer Help to the U.S. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 10:13:41 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 10:13:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION In-Reply-To: <01eb01c5b0e0$43636f00$21ab3852@ANNY> References: <01eb01c5b0e0$43636f00$21ab3852@ANNY> Message-ID: <33abf27505090407136c58b54@mail.gmail.com> It's my understanding that Bush is refusing any aid that's been offered. If countries want to donate to Red Cross--and Japan already has for us--that's fine, but Bush is pulling some crap about how the US doesn't need to take aid from other countries, a real "we can take care of our own" mentality. Basically, he doesn't want to have to owe anybody anything. God forbid the mighty US actually accepts help. And look how he's been taking care of his own. Hemming and hawing and promising but not quite getting anyone there to help--until, of course, looting and rape and violence has escalated, and right away he can send in trained sharpshooters to dispel the violence. The mayor has been beside himself all week, and has been caught swearing and ranting by media, because he's been made all sorts of promises and no follow-through. So he'll probably lose his job for trying to help his people, because he couldn't keep cool. On 9/3/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Just posted on my blog. I have been thinking mainly of New Orleans in the > last coupla o' days. > ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Anny Ballardini > *To:* anny.ballardini at tin.it > *Sent:* Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:28 AM > *Subject:* [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION > > . > I have a question, > > where is Europe, Japan, some other countries. Don't Americans always run > to help people around the world? Australia? Canada? Is everybody deaf and > blind suddenly? Do they have tongues and money only to broadcast looting and > violence and wrong American policies (to hide their own)? > . > > -- > Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorksat 9/04/2005 01:25:00 AM > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 4 10:37:20 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 10:37:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION References: <01eb01c5b0e0$43636f00$21ab3852@ANNY> <33abf27505090407136c58b54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007a01c5b15e$2836f660$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> No, no, Donna--he's busy with the next hurricane, which he hopes will finally make it to Massachusetts. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 10:59:13 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 10:59:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION In-Reply-To: <007a01c5b15e$2836f660$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <01eb01c5b0e0$43636f00$21ab3852@ANNY> <33abf27505090407136c58b54@mail.gmail.com> <007a01c5b15e$2836f660$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <33abf27505090407592468270d@mail.gmail.com> That's right, those damn uppity liberals letting gays flaunt their sinful ways in public. How could I have forgotten? On 9/4/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > > No, no, Donna--he's busy with the next hurricane, which he hopes will > finally make it to Massachusetts. > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Sep 4 11:28:06 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 11:28:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION References: <01eb01c5b0e0$43636f00$21ab3852@ANNY> <33abf27505090407136c58b54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006501c5b165$43318820$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> This was, it's my understanding, his initial response. Well, his initial response after he got around to the disaster at all. Condi, fresh from her shoe-shopping trip, has subsequently said that we will accept aid. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Casinghino To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION It's my understanding that Bush is refusing any aid that's been offered. If countries want to donate to Red Cross--and Japan already has for us--that's fine, but Bush is pulling some crap about how the US doesn't need to take aid from other countries, a real "we can take care of our own" mentality. Basically, he doesn't want to have to owe anybody anything. God forbid the mighty US actually accepts help. And look how he's been taking care of his own. Hemming and hawing and promising but not quite getting anyone there to help--until, of course, looting and rape and violence has escalated, and right away he can send in trained sharpshooters to dispel the violence. The mayor has been beside himself all week, and has been caught swearing and ranting by media, because he's been made all sorts of promises and no follow-through. So he'll probably lose his job for trying to help his people, because he couldn't keep cool. On 9/3/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: Just posted on my blog. I have been thinking mainly of New Orleans in the last coupla o' days. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: anny.ballardini at tin.it Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:28 AM Subject: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION . I have a question, where is Europe, Japan, some other countries. Don't Americans always run to help people around the world? Australia? Canada? Is everybody deaf and blind suddenly? Do they have tongues and money only to broadcast looting and violence and wrong American policies (to hide their own)? . -- Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 9/04/2005 01:25:00 AM _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Sep 4 11:38:53 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 11:38:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry potraits Message-ID: <006c01c5b166$c4975600$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> New on the poetry portraits page: Mina Loy, Rachel Loden, Edward Dorn, Forrest Gander. http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/pojazz.html Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Sep 4 11:40:45 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 16:40:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] two syllogisms References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3F@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <0f0101c5b167$0472d6f0$f29c9951@Robin> Two False Syllogisms All good poets win prizes Carol Ann Duffy wins prizes Therefore Carol Ann Duffy is a good poet Some good poets win prizes Bill Knott does not win prizes Therefore Bill Knott is not a good poet (The logically correct but experientially false version of the above would be: All good poets win prizes Bill Knott does not win prizes Therefore Bill Knott is not a good poet ) The Amazon Ranking Game UK (US) CAROL ANN DUFFY: The World's Wife : Poems 3462 (293,956) Selected Poems 13,080 (190,616) Feminine Gospels 3456 (834,339) U.A.FANTHORPE Collected Poems 52,503 (not listed) Selected Poems 115,676 (NONE) Christmas Poems 121,273 (1,408,817) LIBBY HOUSTON Plain Clothes no ranking (NONE) Stained Glass Raree Show no ranking (NONE) At the Mercy: Poems no ranking (NONE) LYDIA ROBB Last Tango with Magritte 132,222 (currently unavailable) ALISON FLETT Whit Lassyz Ur Inty 138,183 (NONE) The amazon.com listings for Libby Houston, Lydia Robb and Alison Flett all point to outside sellers. ANNIE FINCH Calendars no ranking (106,115) The Encyclopedia Of Scotland no ranking (504,804) Eve no ranking (122,569) Make of that what you will, folks. And then there's: WILLIAM KNOTT Body Parts no ranking (NONE) White Death no ranking (3,284,590) Destinations not listed (NONE) Actually, this last is interesting: Destinations by William Knott a.. Unknown Binding: 24 pages b.. Publisher: Outposts Publications (1978) Well, well, *well* -- so you were published by Howard Sergeant in the Outposts pamphlet series in 1978, Bill? More than I ever was. I think I'd better leave it at that, at least frontchannel. Robin From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 4 13:23:48 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 12:23:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Carol Ann Duffy In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B3D@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: All I know of Carol Ann Duffy is a Penguin *Selected Poems* from 1994. I gather she's still not a household name in the U.S., despite her acclaim abroad--I mean, even in American poetry circles, where she seems far less famous than, say, Jorie Graham, Billy Collins, or Yusef Komunyakaa. Poking about looking for current info, I found these sites, which contain a good deal of stuff. The last site listed has a nice sampling from the book *Mean Time*: http://myweb.lsbu.ac.uk/~stafflag/carolannduffy.html http://www.contemporarywriters.com/authors/?p=auth104 http://www.stevebrown.clara.net/html/carol_ann_duffy.htm It's clear from a brief glance at such sites that Duffy's a bit of a lightning rod for criticism in the U.K., as every "popular" and successful poet is. She also appears to be unlike many prominent American poets in that she writes in many genres in addition to poetry. Here's another poem from Mean Time: Adultery Wear dark glasses in the rain. Regard what was unhurt as though through a bruise. Guilt. A sick, green tint. New gloves, money tucked in the palms, the handshake crackles. Hands can do many things. Phone. Open the wine. Wash themselves. Now you are naked under your clothes all day, slim with deceit. Only the once brings you alone to your knees, miming, more, more, older and sadder, creative. Suck a lie with a hole in it on the way home from a lethal, thrilling night up against a wall, faster. Language unpeels a lost cry. You're a bastard. Do it do it do it. Sweet darkness in the afternoon; a voice in your ear telling you how you are wanted, which way, now. A telltale clock wiping the hours from its face, your face on a white sheet, gasping, radiant, yes. Pay for it in cash, fiction, cab-fares back to the life which crumbles like a wedding-cake. Paranoia for lunch; too much to drink, as a hand on your thigh tilts the restaurant. You know all about love, don't you. Turn on your beautiful eyes for a stranger who's dynamite in bed, again and again; a slow replay in the kitchen where the slicing of innocent onions scalds you to tears. Then, selfish autobiographical sleep in a marital bed, the tarnished spoon of your body stirring betrayal, your heart over-ripe at the core. You're an expert, darling; your flowers dumb and explicit on nobody's birthday. So write the script - illness and debt, a ring thrown away in a garden no moon can heal, your own words commuting to bile in your mouth, terror - and all for the same thing twice. And all for the same thing twice. You did it. What. Didn't you. Fuck. Fuck. No. That was the wrong verb. This is only an abstract noun. --Carol Ann Duffy. *Selected Poems*. Penguin, 1994. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sun Sep 4 13:35:52 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 12:35:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Owens on New Orleans Message-ID: Richard Owens, editor of the great new magazine Damn the Caesars, currently doing PhD in Poetics at SUNY/Buffalo, has given me permission to share these comments he mailed to me on the Gulf Coast aftermath. I thought they complemented those made by Laura Mullen and others. Kent : >reading & hearing so much... so many discsussions comparing the handling of this flood to that of the flood in 1927. delinquent federal & state responses to the flood serving only to intensify popular disdain for government. in many ways more a display of political disregard than natural disaster. people without the means to escape now ushered around like cattle, with no involvement in decision making... no attempt by emergency workers to even compile contact information from evacuees to connect them with their families, to distinguish missing & dead from those that survived. & this issue of looting, men & women, children, taking food & essentials from stores that will never be reopened in order to survive... & media pegging them as opportunistic looters profiting by misfortune. rather than being sent on rescue missions national guardsmen and local law enforcement are, in many cases, now guarding flooded out stores against "looters." the disaster in New Orleans is perhaps the most poignant microcosmic illustration of bare naked Bush admin policies. the rich have fled to higher ground & left the poor behind to scavenge from the remains... &, in scavenging for survival, the poor have been villified, demonized. to be an american is scarcely anything other than shameful. today the shame simply grows more intense. From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 4 13:49:44 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 13:49:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] an abundance of unreadable poetry out there Message-ID: <65.4cdab09c.304c8db8@aol.com> http://www.sltrib.com/arts/ci_2999035 Article Last Updated: 09/03/2005 10:58:40 PM Poetic injustice: Poets spare no words in arguing whether 'approachable' poetry By Christy Karras The Salt Lake Tribune Billy Collins Former U.S. Poet Laureate Billy Collins doesn't mince words when it comes to some of his fellow poets. "I think more people should be reading it but maybe fewer people should be writing it," he said. While Collins loves the prospect of more people appreciating the art form, "there's an abundance of unreadable poetry out there." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Sep 4 14:09:52 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:09:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Carol Ann Duffy References: Message-ID: <00a001c5b17b$dca39910$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Re: Carol Ann DuffyJury's still out for me on C.A.D. I wasn't familiar with her. I'm not familiar with a lot of people. I've liked some of the pieces posted here, not crazy about "Adultery." The "would I let my students get away with this" test isn't always infallible (really good poets can make tricks work that beginners can't), but it's not a bad test. I wouldn't let a student begin a poem with a line that sounds as if it was stolen from Billy Joel. And I would never allow a cliche like "naked under their clothes." "Come on, Carol Ann. That line's been used a hundred times -- probably a dozen times in the last ten years by columnists in our school newspaper. I'll want to see it gone in the next revision." "But professor, sometimes a cliche is the only way to say what you mean." "Not in this class, Carol Ann. And what have I told you about getting too locked in to saying what you mean?" ...a voice in your ear telling you how you are wanted "Carol Ann, have you been watching Dr. Phil again?" Never mind poetry after Auschwitz. The question is, can there be poetry after Oprah? And the answer is yes, but not in the same language. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:23 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Carol Ann Duffy All I know of Carol Ann Duffy is a Penguin *Selected Poems* from 1994. I gather she's still not a household name in the U.S., despite her acclaim abroad--I mean, even in American poetry circles, where she seems far less famous than, say, Jorie Graham, Billy Collins, or Yusef Komunyakaa. Poking about looking for current info, I found these sites, which contain a good deal of stuff. The last site listed has a nice sampling from the book *Mean Time*: http://myweb.lsbu.ac.uk/~stafflag/carolannduffy.html http://www.contemporarywriters.com/authors/?p=auth104 http://www.stevebrown.clara.net/html/carol_ann_duffy.htm It's clear from a brief glance at such sites that Duffy's a bit of a lightning rod for criticism in the U.K., as every "popular" and successful poet is. She also appears to be unlike many prominent American poets in that she writes in many genres in addition to poetry. Here's another poem from Mean Time: Adultery Wear dark glasses in the rain. Regard what was unhurt as though through a bruise. Guilt. A sick, green tint. New gloves, money tucked in the palms, the handshake crackles. Hands can do many things. Phone. Open the wine. Wash themselves. Now you are naked under your clothes all day, slim with deceit. Only the once brings you alone to your knees, miming, more, more, older and sadder, creative. Suck a lie with a hole in it on the way home from a lethal, thrilling night up against a wall, faster. Language unpeels a lost cry. You're a bastard. Do it do it do it. Sweet darkness in the afternoon; a voice in your ear telling you how you are wanted, which way, now. A telltale clock wiping the hours from its face, your face on a white sheet, gasping, radiant, yes. Pay for it in cash, fiction, cab-fares back to the life which crumbles like a wedding-cake. Paranoia for lunch; too much to drink, as a hand on your thigh tilts the restaurant. You know all about love, don't you. Turn on your beautiful eyes for a stranger who's dynamite in bed, again and again; a slow replay in the kitchen where the slicing of innocent onions scalds you to tears. Then, selfish autobiographical sleep in a marital bed, the tarnished spoon of your body stirring betrayal, your heart over-ripe at the core. You're an expert, darling; your flowers dumb and explicit on nobody's birthday. So write the script - illness and debt, a ring thrown away in a garden no moon can heal, your own words commuting to bile in your mouth, terror - and all for the same thing twice. And all for the same thing twice. You did it. What. Didn't you. Fuck. Fuck. No. That was the wrong verb. This is only an abstract noun. --Carol Ann Duffy. *Selected Poems*. Penguin, 1994. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sun Sep 4 14:12:49 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:12:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Glxck Message-ID: This typo (appearing twice) from the funny article James sent is great. Makes her sound like the Poet Laureate of Bizzarro World, in the Superman comics! >Louise Glxck, poet laureate in 2003-04 .... From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 4 14:17:57 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:17:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Owens on New Orleans Message-ID: <46.705aaf36.304c9455@aol.com> In a message dated 9/4/2005 1:36:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: > the rich have fled to higher ground &left > the poor behind to scavenge from the remains... &, in scavenging for > survival, the poor have been villified, demonized. to be an american is > scarcely anything other than shameful. today the shame simply grows more > intense. > The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. --Anatole France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Sep 4 14:19:10 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:19:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] an abundance of unreadable poetry out there References: <65.4cdab09c.304c8db8@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b801c5b17d$2816ac10$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> He's not wrong, but I don't know how useful this is. All of us MFAs (not me! as my employment record proves) need to remember what we're doing in all those workshop classes we're teaching out there. Mostly, we need to working from the inside to build a love of poetry in at least a few people. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] an abundance of unreadable poetry out there http://www.sltrib.com/arts/ci_2999035 Article Last Updated: 09/03/2005 10:58:40 PM Poetic injustice: Poets spare no words in arguing whether 'approachable' poetry By Christy Karras The Salt Lake Tribune Billy Collins Former U.S. Poet Laureate Billy Collins doesn't mince words when it comes to some of his fellow poets. "I think more people should be reading it but maybe fewer people should be writing it," he said. While Collins loves the prospect of more people appreciating the art form, "there's an abundance of unreadable poetry out there." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Sep 4 14:20:15 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:20:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Glxck References: Message-ID: <00c701c5b17d$4f808be0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Can we get her to say her name backwards? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 2:12 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Glxck > This typo (appearing twice) from the funny article James sent is great. > Makes her sound like the Poet Laureate of Bizzarro World, in the > Superman comics! > >>Louise Glxck, poet laureate in 2003-04 .... > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 4 14:40:26 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:40:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Glxck Message-ID: In a message dated 9/4/2005 2:13:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: > This typo (appearing twice) from the funny article James sent is great. > Makes her sound like the Poet Laureate of Bizzarro World, Wilde, I think, said an author can survive anything but a typo... take a look at this article. Atleast it wasn't Louise Glock... http://www.di-ve.com/dive/portal/portal.jhtml?id=196760&pid=1 American Poet to give readings at St James by di-ve.com Sunday, 04 September, 2005 Leading American poet Michael Winters will be giving a reading of some of his works at St James Cavalier on Tuesday 6th September at 7.30 pm. Mr. Winters will be spending five weeks in Malta as an artist in residence as part of the exchange programme St James Cavalier has with the Virginia Centre for Creative Arts. Mr. Winters hopes to be able to meet with other writers during his stay in Malta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 4 14:55:11 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:55:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION Message-ID: <1fd.95066d7.304c9d0f@aol.com> In a message dated 9/4/2005 10:14:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, snakecharmer at gmail.com writes: > It's my understanding that Bush is refusing any aid that's been offered. If > countries want to donate to Red Cross--and Japan already has for us--that's > fine, but Bush is pulling some crap about how the US doesn't need to take aid > from other countries, a real "we can take care of our own" mentality. > Basically, he doesn't want to have to owe anybody anything. God forbid the mighty > US actually accepts help. > Given U.S. foreign policy and the current ballooning of the federal deficit, it's probably better to give to private foundations...otherwise these countries could be throwing good money after bad (behavior). Dubya may have inadvertently suggested the correct course for the donor nations. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 4 15:00:31 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 15:00:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy Message-ID: <128.6468943b.304c9e4f@aol.com> In a message dated 9/3/2005 7:42:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > how long has anyone on this list lived > *directly* off their writing For many years I have lived off of my writing...underwriting insurance for financial institutions. Willie Sutton is my hero. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 15:24:48 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 20:24:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] I HAVE A QUESTION In-Reply-To: <1fd.95066d7.304c9d0f@aol.com> References: <1fd.95066d7.304c9d0f@aol.com> Message-ID: It's my understanding that we Europeans have released oil reserves to stablise the oil price on the world market, and your SUVs to run cheaply. Sri Lanka offered $25000 of support, which Ms Rice accepted. One of the ironies is that donating to the Red Cross won't materially affect people left in New Orleans. The Red Cross have been refused entry to the city, apparently if people see them there, they might want to stay. Roger On 9/4/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/4/2005 10:14:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > snakecharmer at gmail.com writes: > > > It's my understanding that Bush is refusing any aid that's been offered. If > countries want to donate to Red Cross--and Japan already has for us--that's > fine, but Bush is pulling some crap about how the US doesn't need to take > aid from other countries, a real "we can take care of our own" mentality. > Basically, he doesn't want to have to owe anybody anything. God forbid the > mighty US actually accepts help. > > > Given U.S. foreign policy and the current ballooning of the federal > deficit, > it's probably better to give to private foundations...otherwise these > countries > could be throwing good money after bad (behavior). Dubya may have > inadvertently > suggested the correct course for the donor nations. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 4 15:28:50 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 14:28:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] an abundance of unreadable poetry out there In-Reply-To: <00b801c5b17d$2816ac10$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 9/4/05 1:19 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: He's not wrong, but I don't know how useful this is. All of us MFAs (not me! as my employment record proves) need to remember what we're doing in all those workshop classes we're teaching out there. Mostly, we need to working from the inside to build a love of poetry in at least a few people. Tad Richards --------------------------- Amen. And I particularly like what Katharine Coles was quoted as saying in the Collins article: Utah poet and novelist Katharine Coles joins him in dismissing the debate. "For me, 'academic versus accessible' is simply a false opposition for poetry, especially the assumption that you are either 'academic' or 'accessible' and can't be both or, indeed, neither," she said. "Poetry shows us to ourselves, allows us to read ourselves, in ways that are at the same time clarifying and deeply mysterious. Frost is considered one of our most accessible poets, yet in many ways in spite of the farmer posture he's also one of our most academic, if by academic you mean that his work is rooted in and informed by literary and philosophical tradition all the way back to classical Greece." ----------------------------- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 4 15:46:48 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 14:46:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Carol Ann Duffy In-Reply-To: <00a001c5b17b$dca39910$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 9/4/05 1:09 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: Jury's still out for me on C.A.D. ------------------------------------ Me, too, I suppose. To draw this thread together with another: it's interesting, from this side of the Atlantic, to note how many of the criticisms against Duffy have been lodged against American poets such as Billy Collins. There does seem to be some point at which "hospitable" poetry crosses a line into slackness of diction, rhythm, imagination. I like Billy Collins's work a good deal; and more than I like, say, James Merrill's or Jorie Graham's, but when he writes a weak poem it typically doesn't resemble their weak poems. Different strengths, different weaknesses. The Duffy poems I've seen are often pretty "accessible," even despite some unfamiliar lingo. I think Tad's put his finger on some of their characteristic weaknesses. Still, I find her a very interesting voice. Here's yet another from the *Selected*: The Captain of the 1964 Top of the Form Team Do Wah Diddy Diddy, Baby Love, Oh Pretty Woman were in the Top Ten that month, October, and the Beatles were everywhere else. I can give you the B-side of the Supremes one. Hang on. Come See About Me? I lived in a kind of fizzing hope. Gargling with Vimto. The clever smell of my satchel. Convent girls. I pulled my hair forward with a steel comb that I blew like Mick, my lips numb as a two-hour snog. No snags. The Nile rises in April. Blue and White. The humming-bird's song is made by its wings, which beat so fast that they blur in flight. I knew the capitals, the Kings and Queens, the dates. In class, the white sleeve of my shirt saluted again and again. Sir!...Correct. Later, I whooped at the side of my bike, a cowboy, mounted it running in one jump. I sped down Dyke Hill, no hands, famous, learning, dominus domine dominum. Dave Dee Dozy...Try me. Come on. My mother kept my mascot Gonk on the TV set for a year. And the photograph. I look so brainy you'd think I'd just had a bath. The blazer. The badge. The tie. The first chord of A Hard Day's Night loud on my head. I ran to the Spinney in my prize shoes, up Churchill Way, up Nelson Drive, over pink pavements that girls chalked on, in a blue evening; and I stamped the pawprints of badgers and skunks in the mud. My country. I want it back. The captain. The one with all the answers. Bzz. My name was in red on Lucille Green's jotter. I smiled as wide as a child who went missing on the way home from school. The keeny. I say to my stale wife Six hits by Dusty Springfield. I say to my boss A pint! How can we know the dancer from the dance? Nobody. My thick kids wince. Name the Prime Minister of Rhodesia. My country. How many florins in a pound? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Sep 4 16:02:53 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 22:02:53 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Glxck References: Message-ID: <004701c5b18b$a2a21970$2fab3252@ANNY> When in Malta he is Waters (much around and none inside, they practically count the drops) - in the States Winters, that makes sense. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Glxck In a message dated 9/4/2005 2:13:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: This typo (appearing twice) from the funny article James sent is great. Makes her sound like the Poet Laureate of Bizzarro World, Wilde, I think, said an author can survive anything but a typo... take a look at this article. Atleast it wasn't Louise Glock... http://www.di-ve.com/dive/portal/portal.jhtml?id=196760&pid=1 American Poet to give readings at St James by di-ve.com Sunday, 04 September, 2005 Leading American poet Michael Winters will be giving a reading of some of his works at St James Cavalier on Tuesday 6th September at 7.30 pm. Mr. Winters will be spending five weeks in Malta as an artist in residence as part of the exchange programme St James Cavalier has with the Virginia Centre for Creative Arts. Mr. Winters hopes to be able to meet with other writers during his stay in Malta. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 4 16:24:54 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 16:24:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Owens on New Orleans References: <46.705aaf36.304c9455@aol.com> Message-ID: <014201c5b18e$b65826f0$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. --Anatole France BUT: the law, in its majestic equality, also allows the poor as well as the rich fully to enjoy the benefits of their talent, hard work, and foresight. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Sep 4 18:11:05 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 14:11:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Owens on New Orleans Message-ID: <200509042047.j84Kl9rb093538@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> yep---I've been trying to write a song about exactly this the last couple of days--- I have to find my copy of RANDY NEWMAN'S LOUISIANA 1927; it's around here somehere..... Chris ---------- >From: "Kent Johnson" >To: >Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Owens on New Orleans >Date: Sun, Sep 4, 2005, 9:35 AM > > Richard Owens, editor of the great new magazine Damn the Caesars, > currently doing PhD in Poetics at SUNY/Buffalo, has given me permission > to share these comments he mailed to me on the Gulf Coast aftermath. I > thought they complemented those made by Laura Mullen and others. Kent > > : > >>reading & hearing so much... so many discsussions comparing the > handling of this flood to that of the flood in 1927. delinquent federal > & state responses to the flood serving only to intensify popular disdain > for government. in many ways more a display of political disregard than > natural disaster. people without the means to escape now ushered around > like cattle, with no involvement in decision making... no attempt by > emergency workers to even compile contact information from evacuees to > connect them with their families, to distinguish missing & dead from > those that survived. & this issue of looting, men & women, children, > taking food & essentials from stores that will never be reopened in > order to survive... & media pegging them as opportunistic looters > profiting by misfortune. rather than being sent on rescue missions > national guardsmen and local law enforcement are, in many cases, now > guarding flooded out stores against "looters." the disaster in New > Orleans is perhaps the most poignant microcosmic illustration of bare > naked Bush admin policies. the rich have fled to higher ground & left > the poor behind to scavenge from the remains... &, in scavenging for > survival, the poor have been villified, demonized. to be an american is > scarcely anything other than shameful. today the shame simply grows more > intense. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bardo at optonline.net Sun Sep 4 17:29:24 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 17:29:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Glxck References: <00c701c5b17d$4f808be0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <012401c5b197$b8bd02e0$3a95c044@MULDER> Good one, eloM! ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Glxck > Can we get her to say her name backwards? > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kent Johnson" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 2:12 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Glxck > > >> This typo (appearing twice) from the funny article James sent is great. >> Makes her sound like the Poet Laureate of Bizzarro World, in the >> Superman comics! >> >>>Louise Glxck, poet laureate in 2003-04 .... >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 4 20:06:24 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 20:06:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Owens on New Orleans Message-ID: <7f.65b60735.304ce600@aol.com> In a message dated 9/4/2005 4:25:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > BUT: the law, in its majestic equality, also allows the poor as well as the > rich fully to enjoy the benefits of their talent, hard work, and foresight. > > They'll be pulling themselves up and out of the backwash and muck by the ol' bootstraps any day now, won't they?, Bob. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 4 20:37:20 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 19:37:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louisiana 1927 In-Reply-To: <200509042047.j84Kl9rb093538@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: on 9/4/05 5:11 PM, Chris Stroffolino at cstroffo at earthlink.net wrote: > yep---I've been trying to write a song about exactly this the last couple of > days--- > > I have to find my copy of RANDY NEWMAN'S LOUISIANA 1927; it's around here > somehere..... > > Chris > > ---------- Louisiana 1927 What has happened down here is the wind have changed Clouds roll in from the north and it started to rain Rained real hard and rained for a real long time Six feet of water in the streets of Evangeline The river rose all day The river rose all night Some people got lost in the flood Some people got away alright The river have busted through cleard down to Plaquemines Six feet of water in the streets of Evangelne CHORUS Louisiana, Louisiana They're tyrin' to wash us away They're tryin' to wash us away Louisiana, Louisiana They're tryin' to wash us away They're tryin' to wash us away President Coolidge came down in a railroad train With a little fat man with a note-pad in his hand The President say, "Little fat man isn't it a shame what the river has done To this poor cracker's land." CHORUS --Randy Newman. Good Old Boys, 1974. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Sun Sep 4 21:12:48 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 21:12:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] follow-up to kent's post re laura mullens Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B40@mail.emerson.edu> Mullens is certainly to be lauded for her compassion and her responsive actions. . . and for her disgust with the ruling class's crimes. . . and for her bravery in posting her thoughts on the web. . . but i wonder if she will write any poems about the events . . . because in theory at least she's already written them, hasn't she? because wouldn't she be classified as a "Post-Avant" poet. . . ? and Post-Avants don't write political poems per se, I mean the kind of political poem found in, say, The Penguin Book of Socialist Verse or the Forche anthology. . . they don't write "poems of witness," they don't have to because, as their theorists never stop asserting, the Post-Avant poem is ipso facto inherently political: no matter what its ostensible subject matter seems to be, no matter how narcissistic and nihilist (re Jeff Clark) it appears to be on the surface, it is really always a subversive enactment which undermines the status quo and calls into question all the normative discourses of power . . . and is therefore a priori political!. . . (and in fact the less overtly and directly political it (the PA poem) is, the more truly deeply political it is. . . ) that's their theory, as i understand it, and maybe i don't understand it. . . i wonder: if Mullens were to write a poem "about" the New Orleans events, wouldn't she have to change her esthetic? what do you think, Kent? From William_Knott at emerson.edu Sun Sep 4 21:16:03 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 21:16:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] oops, i mean Mullen, not Mullens! Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B41@mail.emerson.edu> sorry! From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 4 21:49:05 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 21:49:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Owens on New Orleans References: <7f.65b60735.304ce600@aol.com> Message-ID: <01f201c5b1bc$007b3650$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> BUT: the law, in its majestic equality, also allows the poor as well as the rich fully to enjoy the benefits of their talent, hard work, and foresight. They'll be pulling themselves up and out of the backwash and muck by the ol' bootstraps any day now, won't they?, Bob. My heartless point is that most of them won't for the same reasons they became poor--lack of hard work, talent and foresight. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 4 22:20:36 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 22:20:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Leavis and Wittgenstein Message-ID: <142.4c7b7428.304d0574@aol.com> [Wittgenstein said] "Where's that anthology? Read me his best poem?" The book was handy; opening it, I said, with 'Legal Fictions' [by Wm. Empson] before my eyes, I don't know if this is his best poem, but it will do." When I had read it, Wittgenstein said, "Explain it!" So I began to do so, taking the first line first. "Oh!, I understand that," he interrupted, and, looking over my arm at the text, "But what does that mean?" He pointed two or three lines on. At the third or fourth interruption of the same kind I shut the book, and said, "I'm not playing." "It's perfectly plain that you don't understand the poem in the least," he said. "Gove me the book." I complied, and sure enough, without any difficulty, he went through the poem, explaining the analogical structure that I should have explained myself, if he had allowed me. --F. R. Leavis, 'Memories of Wittgenstein', The Critic as Anti-Philosopher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Sep 4 23:48:32 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 19:48:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] follow-up to kent's post re laura mullens Message-ID: <200509050224.j852OZcY080380@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> I think you understand their theory very well-- thanks Bill.... Chris ---------- >From: "William Knott" >To: >Subject: [New-Poetry] follow-up to kent's post re laura mullens >Date: Sun, Sep 4, 2005, 5:12 PM > > Mullens is certainly to be lauded for her compassion and her > responsive actions. . . > and for her disgust with the ruling class's crimes. . . > and for her bravery in posting her thoughts on the web. . . > > but i wonder if she will write any poems about the events . . . > > because in theory at least she's already written them, > hasn't she? because wouldn't she be classified as a > "Post-Avant" poet. . . ? > > and Post-Avants don't write political poems per se, I mean > the kind of political poem found in, say, The Penguin Book > of Socialist Verse or the Forche anthology. . . they don't > write "poems of witness," they don't have to because, > as their theorists never stop asserting, the Post-Avant poem > is ipso facto inherently political: no matter what its ostensible > subject matter seems to be, no matter how narcissistic > and nihilist (re Jeff Clark) it appears to be on the surface, > it is really always a subversive enactment which undermines > the status quo and calls into question all the normative discourses > of power . . . and is therefore a priori political!. . . (and in fact the > less overtly and directly political it (the PA poem) is, the more > truly deeply political it is. . . ) > > that's their theory, as i understand it, and maybe i don't > understand it. . . > > i wonder: if Mullens were to write a poem "about" the New > Orleans events, wouldn't she have to change her esthetic? > > what do you think, Kent? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tad at opus40.org Sun Sep 4 22:28:08 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 22:28:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louisiana 1927 References: Message-ID: <005301c5b1c1$79a8fe90$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Louisiana 1927Here are a couple more. High Water Everywhere by Charley Patton Well, backwater done rose all around Sumner now, drove me down the line Backwater done rose at Sumner, drove poor Charley down the line Lord, I'll tell the world the water, done crept through this town Lord, the whole round country, Lord, river has overflowed Lord, the whole round country, man, is overflowed You know I can't stay here, I'll go where it's high, boy I would go to the hilly country, but, they got me barred Now, look-a here now at Leland, river was risin' high Look-a here boys around Leland tell me, river was raisin' high Boy, it's risin' over there, yeah I'm gonna move to Greenville, fore I leave, goodbye Look-a here the water now, Lordy, Levee broke, rose most everywhere The water at Greenville and Leland, Lord, it done rose everywhere Boy, you can't never stay here I would go down to Rosedale, but, they tell me there's water there Now, the water now, mama, done took Charley's town Well, they tell me the water, done took Charley's town Boy, I'm goin' to Vicksburg Well, I'm goin' to Vicksburg, for that high of mine I am goin' up that water, where lands don't never flow Well, I'm goin' over the hill where, water, oh don't ever flow Boy, hit Sharkey County and everything was down in Stovall But, that whole county was leavin', over that Tallahatchie shore Boy, went to Tallahatchie and got it over there Lord, the water done rushed all over, down old Jackson road Lord, the water done raised, over the Jackson road Boy, it starched my clothes I'm goin' back to the hilly country, won't be worried no more Backwater at Blytheville, backed up all around Backwater at Blytheville, done took Joiner town It was fifty families and children come to sink and drown The water was risin' up at my friend's door The water was risin' up at my friend's door The man said to his women folk, "Lord, we'd better go" The water was risin', got up in my bed Lord, the water was rollin', got up to my bed I thought I would take a trip, Lord, out on the big ice sled Oh, I can hear, Lord, Lord, water upon my door, you know what I mean, look-a here I hear the ice, Lord, Lord, was sinkin' down, I couldn't get no boats there, Marion City gone down So high the water was risin' our men sinkin' down Man, the water was risin' at places all around, boy, they's all around It was fifty men and children come to sink and drown Oh, Lordy, women and grown men drown Oh, women and children sinkin' down Lord, have mercy I couldn't see nobody's home and wasn't no one to be found Backwater Blues by Bessie Smith When it rains five days and the skies turn dark as night When it rains five days and the skies turn dark as night Then trouble's takin' place in the lowlands at night I woke up this mornin', can't even get out of my door I woke up this mornin', can't even get out of my door There's been enough trouble to make a poor girl wonder where she want to go Then they rowed a little boat about five miles 'cross the pond Then they rowed a little boat about five miles 'cross the pond I packed all my clothes, throwed them in and they rowed me along When it thunders and lightnin' and when the wind begins to blow When it thunders and lightnin' and the wind begins to blow There's thousands of people ain't got no place to go Then I went and stood upon some high old lonesome hill Then I went and stood upon some high old lonesome hill Then looked down on the house were I used to live Backwater blues done call me to pack my things and go Backwater blues done call me to pack my things and go 'Cause my house fell down and I can't live there no more Mmm, I can't move no more Mmm, I can't move no more There ain't no place for a poor old girl to go Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 8:37 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Louisiana 1927 on 9/4/05 5:11 PM, Chris Stroffolino at cstroffo at earthlink.net wrote: > yep---I've been trying to write a song about exactly this the last couple of > days--- > > I have to find my copy of RANDY NEWMAN'S LOUISIANA 1927; it's around here > somehere..... > > Chris > > ---------- Louisiana 1927 What has happened down here is the wind have changed Clouds roll in from the north and it started to rain Rained real hard and rained for a real long time Six feet of water in the streets of Evangeline The river rose all day The river rose all night Some people got lost in the flood Some people got away alright The river have busted through cleard down to Plaquemines Six feet of water in the streets of Evangelne CHORUS Louisiana, Louisiana They're tyrin' to wash us away They're tryin' to wash us away Louisiana, Louisiana They're tryin' to wash us away They're tryin' to wash us away President Coolidge came down in a railroad train With a little fat man with a note-pad in his hand The President say, "Little fat man isn't it a shame what the river has done To this poor cracker's land." CHORUS --Randy Newman. Good Old Boys, 1974. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Sun Sep 4 23:32:39 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 23:32:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Owens on New Orleans In-Reply-To: <01f201c5b1bc$007b3650$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <7f.65b60735.304ce600@aol.com> <01f201c5b1bc$007b3650$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: On Sep 4, 2005, at 9:49 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > BUT: the law, in its majestic equality, also allows the poor as > well as the rich fully to enjoy the benefits of their talent, hard > work, and foresight. > > > They'll be pulling themselves up and out of the backwash and muck > by the ol' bootstraps any day now, won't they?, Bob. > > My heartless point is that most of them won't for the same reasons > they became poor--lack of hard work, talent and foresight. > > --Bob G. > Become poor? What planet are you from -- most of them were born poor, Bob. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Sep 5 07:06:37 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 07:06:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Owens on New Orleans References: <7f.65b60735.304ce600@aol.com><01f201c5b1bc$007b3650$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002b01c5b209$e2e7f7b0$75b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> My heartless point is that most of them won't for the same reasons >> they became poor--lack of hard work, talent and foresight. >> >> --Bob G. >> > > Become poor? What planet are you from -- most of them were born poor, > Bob. So change "became" to "are." --Bob G. From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Sep 5 11:42:06 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 10:42:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hurucan Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C64@URANIUM.ripon.college> Hurucan [I] Once branching light startles the hair of the coconuts, and on the villas' asphalt roofs, rain resonates like pebbles in a pan, and only the skirts of surf waltz round the abandoned bandstand, and we hear the telephone cables hallooing like fingers tapped over an Indian's mouth, once the zinc roofs begin wrenching their nails like freight uncrated with a crowbar, we remember you as the possible deity of the whistling marsh-canes, we doubt that you were ever slain by the steel Castilian lances of a thousand horizons, deity of the yellow-skinned ones who thatched your temple with plantains. When the power station's blackout grows frightening as amnesia, and the luxury resorts revert to the spear-tips of candles, and the swimming pools in their marsh-light multiply with hysterical lilies like the beaks of fledglings uttering your name, when lightning fizzles out in the wireless, we can see and hear the streaming black locks of clouds, flesh the gamboge of lightning, and the epicanthic, almond-shaped eye of the whirling cyclops, runner through the cloud-smoke, our ocean's marathon strider, the only survivor of their massacred deities whose temples change like the clouds over Yucat?n, in the copper twilight over Ecuador, runner who can grip the mares' tails of galloping cirrus, vaulting the dead conquistadors of the helmeted palms. You'd never reply to the name of the northern messenger whose zigzagging trident pitchforks the oaks like straw, nor to the thunderous tambors of Shango; you rage till we get your name right, till the surf and the bent palms dance to your tune, even if, at your entrance, clouds plod the horizon like caparisoned camels, and the wind begins to unwhirl like a burnoose; you abhor all other parallels but our own, Hurucan. You scream like a man whose wife is dead, like a god who has lost his race, you yank the electric wires with wet hands. Then we think of a different name than the cute ones christened by radar, in the sludge that sways next day by the greased pierheads where a rowboat still rocks in fear, and Florida now flares to your flashbulb and the map of Texas rattles, and we lie awake in the dark by the dripping stelae of candles, our heads gigantified on the walls, and think of you, still running with tendons feathered with lightning, water-worrier, whom the chained trees strain to follow, havoc, reminder, ancestor, and, when morning enters, pale as an insurance broker, god. [II] The sea almond's dress is drenched in the morning, the leaves drip on their clotheslines like wax drops from candles, the pent waves circle their fences like witless sheep. A freighter is parked on the coastal road to the airport, and the birds won't be back for some time. The chairs around the bandstand are heaped up like the morning after your dance, and the worms we have buried underground spark and stutter again. Roofs are scattered all over the hillsides like cards dropped during a shoot-out, and the sea starts the pompous thunder of a military funeral as spray shoots up round the kiosk where the Police Band played. We return the pieces of fear to their proper place, the shelf at the back of the mind-- the artifacts, the Carib arrowheads, the pin-pierced amulets, and that force whose weather vanes are the slow-spinning frigates. Your name fades again in the grounded flights; there in dark hangars the mineral patience of cattle-- a cold sweat slides down the silver hides of the empty planes. --Derek Walcott. The Fortunate Traveller. Farrar, Straus, Giroux, 1981. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 11:47:33 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 11:47:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Inspired by Typos Message-ID: <731bb17a05090508475ebb51cf@mail.gmail.com> A while ago, we had a thread about poems inspired by typos. The following appeared on Verse Daily (www.versedaily.com) today: *"Off in the darkness hourses moved restlessly"* ?a typo in Clifford Simak's *A Heritage of Stars* We believed they were horses; and so we saddled up, we rode expectantly through the long day and into the night. Then we dismounted; and slept; and still they continued to carry us ?the hours. They wouldn't stop. They carried us clean away. Copyright (c) 2005 Albert Goldbarth All rights reserved from *Beloit Poetry Journal * Jeff Newberry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Sep 5 11:53:07 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Survivors In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05090508475ebb51cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050905155307.35700.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> does anyone here have contact with Survivors Poetry Network, London? ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Sep 5 11:56:09 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 10:56:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reply to Bill Knott on political poetry and the post-avant Message-ID: Bill Knott said: >i wonder: if Mullens were to write a poem "about" the New Orleans events, wouldn't she have to change her esthetic? >what do you think, Kent? Bill, I certainly don't know if Laura will write any poems about the disaster she has experienced. But I happen to think she is a terrific poet and she'd probably write some very good ones, if she chose to (though a poet's direct experience of a traumatic event does not necessarily bring forth rapid poetic response--for some, no doubt, the closeness would make it more difficult to write, and that is understandable!). But it's interesting that you ask me this question, because I have just written in the past few days a poem provoked by the floods, and it begins and ends with lines that refer to my writing Laura Mullen to ask if she is OK! It's going to a magazine, but maybe I'll share it with the list, too. Now, on this matter of a post-avant having to change one's "esthetic" to write "political poems": While I'm on record as critiquing the elitist Language/post-Language notion of the "political" you outline in your post, I don't necessarily agree that one must completely change one's "aesthetic." This gets complicated, of course, because we are immediately thrown into content/form issues that can get difficult, sometimes quite impossible, to separate out. But I do think that "avant" forms can well be put to the service of political language: One can conceive, for example, of a powerful poem about the current disaster or about the war in Iraq being written in a "New Sentence" manner of proceeding, for example. Or one can think of poems coming out of trauma that present formal and linguistic difficulties, poems which might even be hermetic at first-levels of understanding, but which still have powerful affect: think of some of Celan, for instance. So I think there are *different* kinds, different ways for the "politics of poetry." There have to be, because there are different reading communities in the world. From time to time, poetry gets written out of a particular aesthetic tradition, but can't be contained, as it were, within that aesthetic once it begins to move around in the world. That's when you have great political poetry... The problem is when people start making dogmatic pronouncements about their kind of poetry being better, more legitimate than others. Like some of the Language poets did back on the eve of the war; or like some more traditional poets did, too... Incidentally, here is another coincidence, which I can't keep from sharing, since I found out about this only ten minutes or so before reading your post earlier today. But I just received an email from Sarajevo today from a poet and editor, informing me of strong interest there in translating my recent book, Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz, into Bosnian and perhpaps other Balkan languages... Going back to the issue of "aesthetic," it's interesting to me that this book has no poetic home, so to speak, containing as it does somewhat in-your-face "political poems" that are both "experimental" and "tradititional." And maybe it's partly for that reason that the book has had the modest impact that it has. (Which in no way means I planned it that way--I have little idea what I am doing in that book, ultimately...) Kent From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Sep 5 12:01:40 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 11:01:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems inspired by Typos Message-ID: Jeff, See here: http://jacketmagazine.com/23/shap-kent.html From cstroffo at earthlink.net Mon Sep 5 13:38:43 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:38:43 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dear Yasusuda Message-ID: <200509051614.j85GEkUT302450@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Dear Yas--- Forgive me for spelling your name wrong, or right for that matter. But I'm wondering if you could come back fromt eh grave and a little chat with one of your literary promoters, Kent Johnson. Ya see, I kind of like Kent. He's written me some personal emails that seem to be genuine and stuff (even trying to hook me up with his son, who I've never heard from, and now may not even exist), but it's really difficult to read his emails seriously on list contexts and such, because it seems he can't talk about anything without having to promote his own work over and over. it becomes a "broken record," and surely, Dear Yas, you would understand how that can get in the way of being able to appreciate a person as a person, especially during a time of great tragedy, like the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki or the recent hurricanes in New Orleans (I'll tell you about that later). Anyway, I was wondering , dear yas, if you think it might be a good idea to help Mr. Johnson out by problematizing authorship. I was thinking it might be great if 100 other people were to just send poems to magazines and sign them "Kent Johnson" because, well, if you can't beat him join him. But then I just decide to have my little catharsis and promptly forget about him...Any suggestions you might have would really help! Chris ---------- >From: "Kent Johnson" >To: >Subject: [New-Poetry] Reply to Bill Knott on political poetry and the post-avant >Date: Mon, Sep 5, 2005, 7:56 AM > > Bill Knott said: > >>i wonder: if Mullens were to write a poem "about" the New > Orleans events, wouldn't she have to change her esthetic? > >>what do you think, Kent? > > > Bill, I certainly don't know if Laura will write any poems about the > disaster she has experienced. But I happen to think she is a terrific > poet and she'd probably write some very good ones, if she chose to > (though a poet's direct experience of a traumatic event does not > necessarily bring forth rapid poetic response--for some, no doubt, the > closeness would make it more difficult to write, and that is > understandable!). > > But it's interesting that you ask me this question, because I have just > written in the past few days a poem provoked by the floods, and it > begins and ends with lines that refer to my writing Laura Mullen to ask > if she is OK! It's going to a magazine, but maybe I'll share it with the > list, too. > > Now, on this matter of a post-avant having to change one's "esthetic" > to write "political poems": > > While I'm on record as critiquing the elitist Language/post-Language > notion of the "political" you outline in your post, I don't necessarily > agree that one must completely change one's "aesthetic." This gets > complicated, of course, because we are immediately thrown into > content/form issues that can get difficult, sometimes quite impossible, > to separate out. But I do think that "avant" forms can well be put to > the service of political language: One can conceive, for example, of a > powerful poem about the current disaster or about the war in Iraq being > written in a "New Sentence" manner of proceeding, for example. Or one > can think of poems coming out of trauma that present formal and > linguistic difficulties, poems which might even be hermetic at > first-levels of understanding, but which still have powerful affect: > think of some of Celan, for instance. So I think there are *different* > kinds, different ways for the "politics of poetry." There have to be, > because there are different reading communities in the world. From time > to time, poetry gets written out of a particular aesthetic tradition, > but can't be contained, as it were, within that aesthetic once it begins > to move around in the world. That's when you have great political > poetry... > > The problem is when people start making dogmatic pronouncements about > their kind of poetry being better, more legitimate than others. Like > some of the Language poets did back on the eve of the war; or like some > more traditional poets did, too... > > Incidentally, here is another coincidence, which I can't keep from > sharing, since I found out about this only ten minutes or so before > reading your post earlier today. But I just received an email from > Sarajevo today from a poet and editor, informing me of strong interest > there in translating my recent book, Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz, into > Bosnian and perhpaps other Balkan languages... Going back to the issue > of "aesthetic," it's interesting to me that this book has no poetic > home, so to speak, containing as it does somewhat in-your-face > "political poems" that are both "experimental" and "tradititional." And > maybe it's partly for that reason that the book has had the modest > impact that it has. (Which in no way means I planned it that way--I have > little idea what I am doing in that book, ultimately...) > > Kent > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Sep 5 12:45:40 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 17:45:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Survivors References: <20050905155307.35700.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10f901c5b239$40fe3a10$f29c9951@Robin> I'll pass this on to poetryetc and british-poetry, Paul. Someone there will, no doubt. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 4:53 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Survivors > does anyone here have contact with Survivors Poetry > Network, London? From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Sep 5 12:53:28 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 11:53:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dear Yasusada Message-ID: Chris, Were your nice letters to ME, genuine? It is beginning to appear that they weren't! A reminder that I have asked you for your address again (sorry) so I can send you Brooks's cd. And this thing about my work "getting in the way of tragedy"... That's an interesting comment. It seems to have some psychic build-up behind it, on your part. I'll let it go, for now, but will say: Well, it's interesting that poets who lived through the seige of Sarajevo don't seem to think my work "gets in the way of tragedy"... In fact, just as I was reading your email, Chris, and I am not just saying this, a second message came in from Sarajevo (from Semezdin Mehmedinovic, Bosnia's leading poet, author of Sarajevo Blues--this telling me that the influential cultural weekly there, Feral Tribune, wishes to interview me on the book. I suppose I shouldn't mention that because it might get in the way of your ability to appreciate tragedy, but why shouldn't I tell you. Don't you think it is relevant, given the debates that have occured and which are still unfolding, that a little book in the little space of American post-avant poetry is having some impact that is different than the usual closed-circle excitements? By the way, have you seen the new Yasusada book, just out? It's quite beautifully done. Again, don't be shy and send me your address and I'll be sure you get a copy. Perhaps you'd like to review it and put some of your animus into that. I will include a little note with it, and it will begin: "Dear Chris..." Kent From William_Knott at emerson.edu Mon Sep 5 12:55:34 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:55:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] polit poetry: reply to Kent Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B43@mail.emerson.edu> Kent writes : Now, on this matter of a post-avant having to change one's "esthetic" to write "political poems": While I'm on record as critiquing the elitist Language/post-Language notion of the "political" you outline in your post, I don't necessarily agree that one must completely change one's "aesthetic." This gets complicated, of course, because we are immediately thrown into content/form issues that can get difficult, sometimes quite impossible, to separate out. But I do think that "avant" forms can well be put to the service of political language: One can conceive, for example, of a powerful poem about the current disaster or about the war in Iraq being written in a "New Sentence" manner of proceeding, for example. Or one can think of poems coming out of trauma that present formal and linguistic difficulties, poems which might even be hermetic at first-levels of understanding, but which still have powerful affect: think of some of Celan, for instance. End Kent quote. Celan? ... Death is a Honcho from Texas he sits in the White House and writes he writes he whistles his blacks up to play now play sweetly he says he writes he writes.... Celan is one of Forche's Poets of Witness, at least in his 'Deathfugue'... But is Celan the only model? what about Enzensberger? or (sticking to German poets) Biermann, Brasch or Fried et al? haven't most political poets (like the Germans above) tried to write poems that are "approachable" in the sense which Billy Collins has recently defined it: and SHOULDN'T they try to write poems that are indeed approachable? Isn't that what Mayakovsky said the socialist poet must do? "I set my heel on the throat of my own song," he wrote: isn't that what Mullen or other PA poets would consciously have to do in order to write directly about events like New Orleans? Can the PA poet become, re Mayakovsky, "a champion of boiled water"? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3636 bytes Desc: not available URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Mon Sep 5 13:53:36 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:53:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem re the question Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B45@mail.emerson.edu> by Steffen Mensching (trans. Margitt Lehbert) from 'Child of Europe' (Penguin 1990): [Untitled] In a hotel room in Meissen I read Not a line of Cleophon, a Greek Epic poet, remains, no date. Only that sliver of fame, To be mentioned twice in the 'Poetics' Of Aristotle. "He places Ordinary people before us." Drenched in sweat I see him bending A hexameter. "Language is clearest When it's made of common words." And what else do I want. "But it appears flat." Says Aristotle. "An example Is the poetry of Cleophon." And if He ever suspected it, I think And slowly lower my ballpoint On to the white sheet of paper. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2797 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Sep 5 14:15:19 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 14:15:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gregg redux Message-ID: <1ec.4292e81c.304de537@aol.com> In a message dated 9/1/2005 8:11:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, amparker at davidson.edu writes: > I guess I?m still uncertain, despite your example from Gregg. When you say ? > We can tell by other lines in the poem that [the] poet can tell the > difference between logical, descriptive rendering and a letting go,? that doesn?t > let me read the extended sentence here as the most self-conscious or even aware > maneuver, philosophically. I?m sure it?s just my readerly practice out of > practice, but the kinds of reading other Gregg poems ask of me don?t inform my > reading of this particular sentence. (And no, I?m not getting all New > Critical on you, don?t worry.) > > Not that one?s intuitive maneuvers necessarily become self-conscious: or > maybe they do, and that?s one fancy pants way to talk about ?discovery?? > > Alan, picking up again the scant thread of 'Gregg' here, and I wanted to add a couple of poems that I think are representative of Gregg at her best, and show her 'visionary' mode. There are two modes of Linda Gregg poems...(1) the lyric of moment or episode, often meditatively related or rather flatly described, a kind of 'welcome-to-my-world- as-I-live-it' poem (as opposed the 'I-do-this, I-do-that' jumpy, jazzy poem); and (2) the ecstatic/visionary mode. In the latter ot the two types she leaps or lapses from the descriptive into a language that mixes abstract words that we must take at face value as felt/experienced with the well-seen descriptive elements. In an old essay called "'Vision' in Poetry" by Eleanore Zimmerman she says, "We should be allowed to speak of the vision of the poet without being called upon to make a drawing"... Glistening As I pull the bucket from the crude well, the water changes from dark to a light more silver than the sun. When I pour it over my body that is standing in the dust by the oleander bush, it sparkles easily in the sunlight with an earnestness like the spirit close up. The water magnifies the sun all along the length of it. Love is not less because of the spirit. Delight does not make the heart childish. We thought the blood thinned, our weight lessened, that our substance was reduced by simple happiness. The oleander is thick with leaves and flowers because of spilled water. Let the spirit marry the heart. When I return naked to the stone porch, there is no one to see me glistening. But I look at the almond tree with its husks cracking open in the heat. I look down the whole mountain to the sea. Goats bleating faintly and sometimes bells. I stand there a long time with the sun and the quiet, the earth moving slowly as I dry in the sun. --Linda Gregg, _The Sacraments of Desire, 1991, Graywolf Press We cannot draw a picture of "sunlight with an earnestness like / the spirit close up." or "Let the spirit marry the heart." We have to know them from the way speaker came to them through the specific reality she has descriptive laid out for us to experience. And now the leap ('salto mortale') into the more ecstatic vein... Let Birds Eight deer on the slope in the summer morning mist. The night sky blue. Me like a mare let out to pasture. The Tao does not console me. I was given the way in the milk of childhood. Breathing it waking and sleeping. But now there is no amazing smell of sperm on my thighs, no spreading it on my stomach to show pleasure. I will never give up longing. I will let my hair stay long. The rain proclaims these trees, the trees tell of the sun. Let birds, let birds. Let leaf be passion. Let jaw, let teeth, let tongue be between us. Let joy. Let entering. Let rage and calm join. Let quail come. Let winter impress you. Let spring. Allow the lost ocean to wake in you. Let the mare in the field in the summer morning mist make you whinny. May you come to the fence and whinny. Let birds. --Linda Gregg Chosen by the Lion, Graywolf Press, 1994 Here the poem starts with a certain descriptive calm that suddenly dissolves into almost a frenzy of feelings released or disgorged de profundis. If it can be explained at all it must be seen as something like Schopenhauer describes in _The World as Will_: "Therefore the parts of the body must correspond completely to the chief demands and desires by which the will manifests itself; they must be the visible expression of these desires. Teeth, gullet, and intestinal canal are objectified hunger; the genitals are objectified sexual impulse..." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Sep 5 14:48:12 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 13:48:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Polit poetry, Forche, Yasusada, Socialist Realism, Celan, Mayakovsky, Vallejo, Billy Collins, etc. Message-ID: [Replying to Bill Knott here. Bill, my replies, asterisked, in yours below]: Celan? ... Death is a Honcho from Texas he sits in the White House and writes he writes he whistles his blacks up to play now play sweetly he says he writes he writes.... Celan is one of Forche's Poets of Witness, at least in his 'Deathfugue'... **Though I was thinking of his more opaque, brief lyrics, I'd argue that Deathfugue is a very non-traditional poem! It's a poem, precisely, that happens to succeed, through innovative formal means, in reaching into deeper, collective material, thus making it "approachable." No Billy Collins there, at all, I'm afraid... Incidentally, speaking of Forche (and with apologies to Chris Stroffolino, but I mention this because it is perfectly apropos what we are discussing in terms of poetries of "witness"), did you know that she has written this about Yasusada: "Yasusada's writing is an entry into a spiritual space . . . It is a work of art in the largest sense." I corresponded with her a bit years back, and she told me she would have immediately included Yasusada in Against Forgetting, even knowing of his ficitional nature, had he appeared when she was editing the book. But is Celan the only model? what about Enzensberger? or (sticking to German poets) Biermann, Brasch or Fried et al? **Don't forget Brecht! haven't most political poets (like the Germans above) tried to write poems that are "approachable" in the sense which Billy Collins has recently defined it: and SHOULDN'T they try to write poems that are indeed approachable? **Sure, these guys are great, though not, again, because they went at it a la Billy Collins! There is nothing wrong with "trying," in the sense you say, though usually this will lead to bad political poetry. It's good to remember, since you mention socialism below, that the will of the artist to be "approachable" was the cornerstone of Socialist Realism... By the way, I have an interesting interview I did with Latin America's most famous living "political poet," Ernesto Cardenal on related issues, when he was the Sandinista's Minister of Culture, if you want to see it. It's reprinted from my book A Nation of Poets, here: http://www.litvert.com/issueseven.html Isn't that what Mayakovsky said the socialist poet must do? "I set my heel on the throat of my own song," he wrote: isn't that what Mullen or other PA poets would consciously have to do in order to write directly about events like New Orleans? **No, absolutely not, Bill. They wouldn't necessarily have to "set their heels on the throat of their own songs" to write directly about the events there. (Vallejo certainly didn't do that, for example, in Espana, aparta de mi este caliz, poems which were mass produced and widely read at the front during the Spanish Civil War--sure, they're very different from Trilce--which are very obscure poems that still manage, by the way, to inspire popular acclaim-- but they are by no means Billy Collins-like). Remember, too, that Mayakovsky killed himself with a song in his pocket. So I'm just saying, Bill, that different kinds of writing can succeed in having "political" resonances. The political vector of it all doesn't only depend on the text itself; it also depends on the particular conjunctures the poem happens to enter, and these can often be very fluid constellations of cultural forces, demands, possibilities, and so on. The "politics of poetry" is a more overdetermined (to use a word I haven't used since grad school) situation, I think, than you seem to be arguing. Kent From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Sep 5 15:07:16 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 14:07:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman on the flood, echoing something I wrote Message-ID: Ron Silliman said at his blog today, speaking of the disaster: "It's not just the politicians here who are to blame. It's the fearful, greedy, inner tyrant in every one of us. Every politician * and every voter * who ever voted for a tax cut has blood on their hands this week. Those who have built careers on this may have a little more, as do those who have funded them, but it's a problem for which we all have to take responsibility. The stench of it is the smell of death rising up from southern Louisiana & Mississippi, rubbing our own noses in our collective handiwork." This is very good to hear and I applaud it. Frankly, it almost sounds like a rough paraphrase of the last stanza of my poem "Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz," which got a bunch of poets so upset! Kent From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Sep 5 15:17:43 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman on the flood, echoing something I wrote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050905191743.57384.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> 'there is no such thing as an innocent bystander.. is this not the same thing and pithy too --- Kent Johnson wrote: > Ron Silliman said at his blog today, speaking of the > disaster: > > "It's not just the politicians here who are to > blame. It's the fearful, greedy, inner tyrant in > every one of us. Every politician * and every voter > * who ever voted for a tax cut has blood on their > hands this week. Those who have built careers on > this may have a little more, as do those who have > funded them, but it's a problem for which we all > have to take responsibility. The stench of it is the > smell of death rising up from southern Louisiana & > Mississippi, rubbing our own noses in our collective > handiwork." > > > This is very good to hear and I applaud it. Frankly, > it almost sounds like a rough paraphrase of the last > stanza of my poem "Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz," > which got a bunch of poets so upset! > > Kent > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Sep 5 15:39:11 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 15:39:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Polit poetry, Forche, Yasusada, Socialist Realism, Celan, Mayakovsky, Vallejo, Billy Collins, etc. References: Message-ID: <01c501c5b251$ce3dd120$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> From: "Kent Johnson" wrote: > ... I corresponded with [Carolyn Forche] her a bit years back, and she > told me she would > have immediately included Yasusada in Against Forgetting, even knowing > of his ficitional nature, ... << There you go, folks, the admission at last. We can only hope that eventually we'll get a similar admission about the "stolen" books. Marcus From antrobin at clipper.net Mon Sep 5 15:43:51 2005 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:43:51 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Polit poetry, Forche, Yasusada, Socialist Realism, Celan, Mayakovsky, Vallejo, Billy Collins, etc. In-Reply-To: <01c501c5b251$ce3dd120$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <001101c5b252$2ac4cc50$af301c40@Emily> Um, Marcus, Kent "admitted" that AY was fictional YEARS AGO. TR -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Marcus Bales Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 12:39 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polit poetry, Forche, Yasusada, Socialist Realism,Celan, Mayakovsky, Vallejo, Billy Collins, etc. From: "Kent Johnson" wrote: > ... I corresponded with [Carolyn Forche] her a bit years back, and she > told me she would > have immediately included Yasusada in Against Forgetting, even knowing > of his ficitional nature, ... << There you go, folks, the admission at last. We can only hope that eventually we'll get a similar admission about the "stolen" books. Marcus _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Sep 5 15:53:24 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 15:53:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Polit poetry, Forche, Yasusada, Socialist Realism, Celan, Mayakovsky, Vallejo, Billy Collins, etc. References: <001101c5b252$2ac4cc50$af301c40@Emily> Message-ID: <01d901c5b253$89cb29f0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Splendid -- let's hope he admits his "stolen" book hoax, too. Marcus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Robinson" To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 3:43 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Polit poetry, Forche, Yasusada, Socialist Realism,Celan, Mayakovsky, Vallejo, Billy Collins, etc. > Um, Marcus, Kent "admitted" that AY was fictional YEARS AGO. > > TR > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Marcus Bales > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 12:39 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Polit poetry, Forche, Yasusada, Socialist > Realism,Celan, Mayakovsky, Vallejo, Billy Collins, etc. > > From: "Kent Johnson" wrote: >> ... I corresponded with [Carolyn Forche] her a bit years back, and she > >> told me she would >> have immediately included Yasusada in Against Forgetting, even knowing >> of his ficitional nature, ... << > > There you go, folks, the admission at last. We can only hope that > eventually > we'll get a similar admission about the "stolen" books. > > Marcus > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Sep 5 16:01:06 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:01:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Polit poetry, Forche, Yasusada, Socialist Realism, Celan, Mayakovsky, Vallejo, Billy Collins, etc. References: <001101c5b252$2ac4cc50$af301c40@Emily> Message-ID: <010d01c5b254$8d7550c0$75b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Um, Marcus, Kent "admitted" that AY was fictional YEARS AGO. > > TR I'm confused. Isn't that proof of the existence of Yasusada? --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Sep 5 16:03:01 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:03:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Polit poetry, New Orleans References: Message-ID: <01df01c5b255$146058f0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> George Follies George is, every pilot knows, The autopilot - you can doze Throughout the flight, or watch the scenery As if your power of flight were plenary And not dependent on machinery. But that's not what the wise demand To bring them safely in to land: It's not enough to poll assistants -- We need Horatios and Tristans If we want to go the distance. Though George can cruise at altitude So we can eat our airline food, A little error still can Hubble you; And lack of smarts has got to trouble you In George on-board or in George W. Yes, George is good for laughs and stuff, But when the going's gotten rough And when the plane begins to shudder And lightnings flash and thunders mutter You want a brain at the stick and rudder. Although we sorta voted him to it, I just don't think that George can do it When the power's failed or flickery When advice is faint and bickery When the sneers are snide and snickery When, despite the cheneyest dickery That even shames Nixonian trickery, The airplane dances like Terpsichore. From antrobin at clipper.net Mon Sep 5 16:05:08 2005 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:05:08 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Polit poetry, Forche, Yasusada, Socialist Realism, Celan, Mayakovsky, Vallejo, Billy Collins, etc. In-Reply-To: <010d01c5b254$8d7550c0$75b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000501c5b255$23f043c0$af301c40@Emily> Yes. > Um, Marcus, Kent "admitted" that AY was fictional YEARS AGO. > > TR I'm confused. Isn't that proof of the existence of Yasusada? --Bob G. From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Sep 5 16:11:47 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 15:11:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] um, Marcus... Message-ID: May I suggest, in collegial spirit, that the humorous revelation just now of your complete ignorance in regards to Yasusada's nature and history might lead you to pause a bit next time you feel the urge to go at me with your very personal accusations? That's a long and tortured sentence, but I don't feel the need to revise. Kent From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Sep 5 17:05:50 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:05:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] To Chris S. [addendum] Message-ID: I'd said: >Don't you think it is relevant, given the debates that have occured and which are still unfolding, that a little book in the little space of American post-avant poetry is having some impact that is different than the usual closed-circle excitements? To which I would like to add: Instead of the meaningless personal snipes, brother, why don't you really contribute to those debates, and make some statements? You have some contributions to offer... Kent From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Sep 5 19:52:12 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 18:52:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Yo Bill: ? Message-ID: Bill, Actually, where do you get this from in Mayakovsky? "I set my heel on the throat of my own song"? I'd assumed you were quoting something I hadn't yet seen, but I went to find it and couldn't. And with that wickedy riff off Celan, I am now wondering if this is also yours? I love Mayakovsky, what I know of him, anyway, so would like to know. Curious Kent From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Sep 5 20:34:32 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 20:34:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] um, Marcus... References: Message-ID: <01fc01c5b27a$c280c3a0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> From: "Kent Johnson" wrote: > May I suggest, in collegial spirit, that the humorous revelation just > now of your complete ignorance in regards to Yasusada's nature and > history might lead you to pause a bit next time you feel the urge to go > at me with your very personal accusations? LOL! That Yasusada is a fiction and you're a hoaxer are firmly established. That means that if you want anyone to believe you about your "stolen" books you'll have to offer actual evidence, not merely more of the same fiction and hoaxing. Better luck next time, Kent. And thanks for playing. Marcus From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Sep 5 21:14:55 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 20:14:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Inspired by Typos In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05090508475ebb51cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The following is a found poem I did years ago, after one too many terms of teaching 4 freshman comp sections in a row. I just arranged the sentences, none of which I composed. The title may be my all-time favorite student blooper. But Alas, There is Hope for a Solution --a collage of un-retouched sentences from student essays Work has become a part of American life. It has a high caliber of beauty. America is thought of as the land of wealth and opportunity and wealth. Sure there's equality but to an extent. The topic is very broad, and there are many capillaries to the main channel. But alas, there is hope for a solution: People should not put all their eggs, or instill all their trust in one person. The sixties were known as the revolting era. All of the senses were placed in new worlds. The young ones were not only in an eatable, but they also saw people act like human beings. The same daily routine went on every day. But there is still chances that the future will be nothing like the past as far as the earth is concerned. There is no difference between 3 a.m. and 3 p.m. if just the time is compared. We can visually perceive the twilight, gloriful sunset, and black night. The people of my town have many different faces. There are very few roads on which to drive, and this keeps the traffic down. They commit suicide, and end their own lives. At nine years of age, my mother died. I think I am my father's shadow. A colossal of horrifying answers appears to me: I just look at my Dad with a smile of no meaning. on 9/5/05 10:47 AM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: A while ago, we had a thread about poems inspired by typos. The following appeared on Verse Daily (www.versedaily.com ) today: "Off in the darkness hourses moved restlessly" ?a typo in Clifford Simak's A Heritage of Stars We believed they were horses; and so we saddled up, we rode expectantly through the long day and into the night. Then we dismounted; and slept; and still they continued to carry us ?the hours. They wouldn't stop. They carried us clean away. Copyright ? 2005 Albert Goldbarth All rights reserved from Beloit Poetry Journal Jeff Newberry ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Sep 6 02:36:20 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 22:36:20 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] polit poetry: reply to Kent Message-ID: <200509060512.j865CMFj091188@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Enzensberger is painfully ignored by most u.s poetry gatekeepers... I never understood why Celan was suppossed to be the high, serious one and E somehow lesser.... C ---------- >From: "William Knott" >To: >Subject: [New-Poetry] polit poetry: reply to Kent >Date: Mon, Sep 5, 2005, 8:55 AM > > what about Enzensberger? From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Sep 6 02:30:29 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:30:29 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Inspired by Typos References: Message-ID: <008701c5b2ac$79f9cbe0$bcc93a52@ANNY> Poems Inspired by TyposAre they all so intelligent at their freshman courses? It anyhow made me laugh in the first morning, which shows the great intelligence of their teacher in putting the lines together, cheers, Anny From: David Graham Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 3:14 AM The following is a found poem I did years ago, after one too many terms of teaching 4 freshman comp sections in a row. I just arranged the sentences, none of which I composed. The title may be my all-time favorite student blooper. But Alas, There is Hope for a Solution --a collage of un-retouched sentences from student essays Work has become a part of American life. It has a high caliber of beauty. America is thought of as the land of wealth and opportunity and wealth. Sure there's equality but to an extent. The topic is very broad, and there are many capillaries to the main channel. But alas, there is hope for a solution: People should not put all their eggs, or instill all their trust in one person. The sixties were known as the revolting era. All of the senses were placed in new worlds. The young ones were not only in an eatable, but they also saw people act like human beings. The same daily routine went on every day. But there is still chances that the future will be nothing like the past as far as the earth is concerned. There is no difference between 3 a.m. and 3 p.m. if just the time is compared. We can visually perceive the twilight, gloriful sunset, and black night. The people of my town have many different faces. There are very few roads on which to drive, and this keeps the traffic down. They commit suicide, and end their own lives. At nine years of age, my mother died. I think I am my father's shadow. A colossal of horrifying answers appears to me: I just look at my Dad with a smile of no meaning. on 9/5/05 10:47 AM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: A while ago, we had a thread about poems inspired by typos. The following appeared on Verse Daily (www.versedaily.com ) today: "Off in the darkness hourses moved restlessly" From chezjewelweed at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 12:28:58 2005 From: chezjewelweed at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:28:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy In-Reply-To: <128.6468943b.304c9e4f@aol.com> References: <128.6468943b.304c9e4f@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9/4/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/3/2005 7:42:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, > robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > > how long has anyone on this list lived > *directly* off their writing > > > > For many years I have lived off of my writing...underwriting > insurance for financial institutions. Willie Sutton is my hero. > Finnegan I am currently living off of my writing I guess-- I am a technical writer and editor for a software company. :-) That's what puts grits on the table anyway, and I am rather happy with it because they are pretty good grits and the people I work with are entertaining and smart. Honestly, I never expected to make a living off of poetry. It just doesn't seem to work that way, though I am happy that there are some who can do it. I never made a dime off of a poem, and my own attempts at making a living as a post-MFA adjunct professor led to nothing but a life of poverty in which, at one point, I was one credit card and a merciful landlord away from being homeless, and was being kicked out of the Grolier for not buying a sufficient number of books. The high point at that time of my life was taking a job teaching (and selling rugs as it turned out) in far-flung Turkish Kurdistan-- I had no other job offers. It didn't seem to be a good time to wait around for a grant to come my way while the Turkish lira de-valued right before my eyes, so I did something else. I am happy that I have made a life for myself that allows room for my writing, and my heroes are all those poets out there who have done/are doing something else for a living. There are plenty of them. I've gotten enough validation from the poetry world to feel encouraged (and I hope I can live up to it). That's plenty. Jim, wasn't Willie Sutton the guy who said "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can get with just a kind word"? Priceless. Suzanne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 6 12:43:01 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:43:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy Message-ID: In a message dated 9/6/2005 12:29:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chezjewelweed at gmail.com writes: Jim, wasn't Willie Sutton the guy who said "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can get with just a kind word"? Priceless. Suzanne, A number of good lines were attributed to him, the one I was thinking of, (in answer to a reporter's question, "Why do you rob banks, Willie?") Sutton supposedly replied: "Because that's where the money is." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chezjewelweed at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 12:55:57 2005 From: chezjewelweed at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:55:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/6/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/6/2005 12:29:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > chezjewelweed at gmail.com writes: > > Jim, wasn't Willie Sutton the guy who said "You can get more with a kind > word and a gun than you can get with just a kind word"? Priceless. > > Suzanne, > A number of good lines were attributed to him, the one I was thinking of, > (in answer to a reporter's question, "Why do you rob banks, Willie?") > Sutton supposedly replied: "Because that's where the money is." > Finnegan > Oooohhhhh... I like that one! :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Sep 6 13:18:19 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:18:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy References: Message-ID: <004c01c5b306$feba11f0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> OK, super obscure trivia, but Willie Sutton came along in my impressionable youth, and us kids talked about this a lot. What was the name of the guy who turned Willie Sutton in to the cops, and what happened to him? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Duffy In a message dated 9/6/2005 12:29:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chezjewelweed at gmail.com writes: Jim, wasn't Willie Sutton the guy who said "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can get with just a kind word"? Priceless. Suzanne, A number of good lines were attributed to him, the one I was thinking of, (in answer to a reporter's question, "Why do you rob banks, Willie?") Sutton supposedly replied: "Because that's where the money is." Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Tue Sep 6 13:28:37 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:28:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] mayakovsky quote; answering Kent Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B4D@mail.emerson.edu> the Mayakovsky quote is real... it's from a poem in the Penguin Book of Socialist Verse... i've xeroxed it a dozen times for my classes... i don't have the book with me... i think the poem is titled 'At the Top of My Voice', but i might be wrong. .. ...knotthead -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2501 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 6 13:38:15 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:38:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy References: Message-ID: <00ed01c5b309$c54ccef0$f29c9951@Robin> Jim, wasn't Willie Sutton the guy who said "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can get with just a kind word"? Priceless. Suzanne, A number of good lines were attributed to him, the one I was thinking of, (in answer to a reporter's question, "Why do you rob banks, Willie?") Sutton supposedly replied: "Because that's where the money is." Finnegan Oooohhhhh... I like that one! :-) Sutton's +Where the Money Is: Memoirs of a Bank Robber+ is available as an e-book for $9.45. http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/16477?book=Where_the_Money_Was:_The_Memoirs_of_a_Bank_Robber On the other hand, there are lots of cheap second-hand hardback-in-wrappers copies via abebooks.com for even less. In fact, even on the wrong side of the Pond, I can get one for the same price as the e-book version. There is (was -- just ordered it) one going at a dollar, and even paying $8.45 in shipping (there must be a cheaper way than this) this is no dearer than the e-book, and you get Something Physical for your bucks. A Parsimonious Scot -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Tue Sep 6 13:47:49 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:47:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Collins Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B4F@mail.emerson.edu> i recommend the interview with Collins at: http://sltrib.com/arts/ci_2999035 i agree with everything he says about "unreadable" and "unfathomable" poetry.... see the introduction to his anthol '180 More' for examples. . . ... knotthead -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2441 bytes Desc: not available URL: From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Tue Sep 6 13:51:59 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:51:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso8859-1?q?C=E9line=2C?= Sade Message-ID: <200509061752.j86Hq5nY028428@mail22.atl.registeredsite.com> . Gilbert Sorrentino begins his review of C?line A Biography by Fr?d?ric Vitoux with a quote from Blanchot (writing of Sade): "To say, I like Sade, is to have no relation at all to Sade. Sade cannot be liked, no one can stand him, for what he writes turns us away absolutely by attracting us absolutely." And Sorrentino writes: "Sade, that rarest of creatures, the unassimilated artist, is a kind of forerunner of Louis-Ferdinand C?lin, who possessed the same bleak genius, the power to attract and repel, the need to speak the unspeakably terrible. Paradoxically, Sade -- remote in time, culture and style -- is, perhaps, more acceptable now than C?line, whose writing Fr?d?ric Vitoux justly characterizes as being 'without illusions and without solace.' " . Gregory St. Thomasino . From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Tue Sep 6 13:57:12 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 12:57:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dear Yasusada Message-ID: For what it's worth, I think I responded in the wrong way to Chris Stroffolino's post of the above title. I read it first in the context of some recent unkind things said about me on a few of the blogs (to which I will be responding), and so I think that miscolored my reading. Looking back at Chris's post just now, it seems actually pretty gentle, quite clever, even funny. So I extend an apology to you, Chris, if I overreacted. Kent From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 6 14:08:19 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:08:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] mayakovsky quote; answering Kent References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B4D@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <010f01c5b30d$f6fe87f0$f29c9951@Robin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Knott" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 6:28 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] mayakovsky quote; answering Kent << the Mayakovsky quote is real... it's from a poem in the Penguin Book of Socialist Verse... i've xeroxed it a dozen times for my classes... i don't have the book with me... i think the poem is titled 'At the Top of My Voice', but i might be wrong. .. >> You're right, Bill. Page 189: "But I / subdued / myself, / setting my heel // on the throat / of my own song." Edwin Morgan (+Wi the haill voice+, translations of 25 Mayakovsky poems, p. 82) has: But och, I've maistert mysel therr, I've stappit the hass o my sangs wi my ain pen. I'm tempted to say (but I won't), "Trust Alan Bold to cock it up when he picks a translation to print. Bloody typical." What I +will+ do is quote a couple of lines from an Alan Bold poem I could never get out of my head: As well as being a scientist, Sir Humphrey Davy was a poet. Now there's *real* socialist realism for you, the common language of men. :-( Hate to think what David Kirkwood would have made of Alan Bold. "Him a socialist? Seen sharper weans doon the Gallowgate." Robin From shkodrov at yahoo.com Tue Sep 6 14:28:14 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] mayakovsky quote; answering Kent In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B4D@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <20050906182815.51219.qmail@web54607.mail.yahoo.com> You are right, Bill. "At the Top of My Voice" is probably the last piece he had written. It has been written Dec 1929 - Jan 1930, and was intended to be a 5 year poem project. (Well, I only know about one more piece, more note-like, which may be the very last one.) Well, I'm interested in what do you get from Mayakovsky? To me he is an example of pure propaganda... Kent, what do you think? Was he right? To me his poetry is "way too much" to keep me on the perceptive side... He DID think that speech is an weapon, and he used it extensively as such in his short life... Here is a quote from the poem. It starts with: "Dear 'tovarischi' successors" "... Agitprop sticks in my teeth too, and I'd rather compose romances for you more profit in it and more charm. But I subdued myself, setting my heel on the throat of my own song." Vladimir Mayakovsky "At the Top of My Voice," 1930 Best, Rosie William Knott wrote: the Mayakovsky quote is real... it's from a poem in the Penguin Book of Socialist Verse... i've xeroxed it a dozen times for my classes... i don't have the book with me... i think the poem is titled 'At the Top of My Voice', but i might be wrong. .. ...knotthead _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Tue Sep 6 14:43:10 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:43:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] K. Johnson to K. Mohammad Message-ID: K. Johnson to K. Mohammad [Below is a post which Kasey Silem Mohammad posted to his blog, Lime Tree, on September 1, 2005. My replies are arrowed within his comments. I haven't necessarily enjoyed saying some of the below, especially at a time when there are things of much greater import happening in the world. But given the personal charges, I've felt the need to respond in short order. I've noticed that my answers become increasingly prickly as the response unfolds. I think the context will explain this. In any case, it's high time some of these things got said. KJ] * Fascicle, et al. [KSM] I'm behind everyone else in reporting this, but Fascicle (I can't see that title without picturing a frozen nazi on a stick) is now online. It's a huge and hugely impressive effort on the part of Tony Tost, Kent Johnson, and all other editorial entities involved. >Thank you, Kasey. Tony deserves all credit. He's begun a project that I believe will be a major contribution to current poetry. [KSM] I'm not so enthusiastic, however, about Kent's own three "creative" entries--the naming-names schtick was trite when it started, and now it's just obnoxious. >Well, glad you think they are "creative"! :~ ) But really, Kasey, I think you are a bit "off your game" here, in regards to the matter of naming names, its "schtickness" and "obnoxiousness," as you put it. "Naming names" is a time-honored poetic tradition, as you know. The Greeks and Romans did it (and man, did THEY ever do it!), the Troubadours did it, Dante and the Florentines did it, the Elizabethans did it, the Augustans did it (subtly, but with unmatched violence and glee), Pound did it, the New York poets did it, the Flarfists do it (your Fascicle poems, in fact, make humorous, some might say flippant, mention of T.S. Eliot, Robert Duncan, and the recently departed Susan Sontag, among others), and that's just the quickest graph. Of course, the most prolific (and often most unkind) "namers" of other poets of all time are [drum roll]* Poetry Bloggers! So, yeah, I mention names every once in a while, too, in my obscure, light verses, and do so almost always in perfectly harmless, funny (at least some people think so), and friendly ways. The NY poets sestina is perfectly quaint, a little homage, if anything-David Shapiro, who knew all the people mentioned therein, loves it, said he thinks O'Hara, Koch, and Schuyler would really like it, too. And "The Best American Poetry," what's the big deal? I hear, for example, already, that James Tate and Dean Young are delighted by it... And the Fortune Cookie poem after O'Hara, about which more later, why there are less names in mine than there are in O'Hara's original, I think! No, what's interesting, Kasey, is why this is such a big deal to some people, including you, apparently. Well, let's leave a full analysis of those "why's" for some other time, as a whole book could be written about it (and no doubt things WILL be written about it, i.e., about the prissy sensitivities of our conformist and cautious post-avant field). Anyway, we need more fun in American poetry, I've been saying for a while. More comradely contest* More epigramitists (incidentally, you want names, wait for my Epigramititis: 111 Living American Poets, out in later November, 250 pp. of names!)* More poets who praise and satirize and pull no punches, like Hipponax and Catullus (weren't those guys really great?)* For curio's sake, we even need more adolescent goonies like Jim Behrle (whose, um, rather violent and pornographic "naming of names" you apparently don't find obnoxious in the least! Uh, big HMMM there, Kasey...). [KSM] I wouldn't even bother mentioning it, except that I'm increasingly annoyed by Kent's passive-aggressive manipulative behavior, of which his poetry is just one visible symptom. >Aha! Now we are getting to some meat... So let's see, you claim I exhibit a passive aggressive, manipulative nature, and that one visible sign of this is that I throw a few names into my lighthearted poems here and there, poking or praising poets living or dead--that is, you see it as "passive aggressive" of me to be up front with who I'm talking about, inviting, by so doing, open and direct riposte, praise, scorn, critique, all of which I get plenty of. But do you not see the irony and hypocrisy in your position, Kasey? Could you really be so oblivious to the behavior that most blatantly characterizes a certain visible grouping of poetry bloggers, a grouping that has evolved into a de facto self-promoting fraternity, a boys club that uses embarrassingly obvious passive-aggressive feints and bobs to promote its clubbiness--and which, moreover, endorses and eggs-on (as you, Gary Sullivan, Jordan Davis, Jonathan Mayhew, and a few other fellow-travelers openly do) the wildest, most slanderous type of ad hominem acting out on the part of its clearly troubled mascot? So let me suggest to you, since you seem too close to the painting to appreciate the scene, that the post-avant world is one little area of our culture where passive aggressiveness in service of petty flag-planting is generously on display, a place where one finds a very obnoxious surfeit of manipulative one-upmanship, cowardly behind-the-scenes maligning, prolific public innuendo and vilification, craven ass-kissing, vindictive blacklisting, and so forth (does anyone want to dispute the truth of that list?): And a certain "popular" corner of Poetry Blogland--which has fraternal connections, in turn, to certain publications, reading venues, etc.-- has refined these behaviors into a kind of Living Theater art form. In its environs, it's hunky-dory to name names, to insult and belittle, to shame and defame, so long as the target is not one of the coterie... Of course, I perfectly realize you and your cohorts will force a sarcastic laugh, denying this indignantly, while claiming "hallucination" on my part. I mean, I realize that's all part of the schtick, as it were* And though plenty of people will know exactly what I am talking about, plenty of minor, eager figures will no doubt flock to your cliquish fraternity's defense. That's predictable and good: The mix will make future studies of this poignant sub-cultural moment all the meatier. [KSM] I always seem to get dragged into it somehow, and I'm really bored with it. What fucking "cake" did I bake, Kent? Do you have a problem with me? Then express it directly. Start your own blog or something, say what's on your mind, and can it with the lame "literary" stunts. >Ah, yes, "literary stunts"* FLARF, anyone? [KSM] Just for the record, although I'm already way past regretting bringing any of this up in the first place, I thought it was uncalled for when Jim Behrle contacted Kent's boss. >How magnanimous of you. [KSM] I say this not because I consider it my place to reprimand Jim, but because I don't want some stupid situation in which I am implicitly understood (i.e., by Kent) as condoning any and all attacks on Kent in any manner just because I think Jim's funny and mostly right most of the time. >No, it wouldn't, of course, be your place to reprimand your "funny" buddy for the most boorish and unethical behavior, but it's clearly your place to publicly accuse me of being manipulative, etc., and so forth. (Kasey, am I really responding to something written by you here? You're a very smart guy, but this is so incompetent in all its brazen contradictions, I'm honestly not sure!) [KSM] (Though I'm stumped as to why Jim chose to immortalize Tony as a cartoon wookiee, other than that one of the most amusing things about Jim's razor wit [besides that it's all rusty and covered with gross body hair] is that it frequently flies shuriken-style in all directions for no good reason. We'll all take turns. I'll get mine too.) I also don't want this to get construed as me "choosing sides" in some bullshit quarrel that is largely Kent's own hallucination in the first place. >Yes, I had begun to suspect the nine or ten years of all those very public and personal attacks against me for being executor of the Yasusada writings were just "hallucinations." Thank you for confirming that I have simply imagined there might be some subtextual connection between the current animus sent my way and that history. There is no reason, after all, I should have been so irresponsible as to fantasize such: I know that you, Gary Sullivan (whose histrionic and then disappeared attacks on Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz were no doubt also just "hallucinations"), Jordan Davis, Jonathan Mayhew, Jim Behrle, and assorted new pledges to Alpha Blogga Chi think that Yasusada is just super-duper cool, and that you bear no trace of resentment or antagonism toward that work whatsoever. I know now I have merely hallucinated the various snide and disparaging remarks about Yasusada made over the past years by all the above people of your affinity group. Thank you for confirming my suspicions. [KSM] It's on record that I've found much of Kent's work interesting and impressive. >It's on record that I have praised your work a great deal more than you have mine. Funny, I don't think I can recall one single instance of you ever acknowledging my admirations, publicly or privately. [KSM] I wrote a blurb for his mostly witty and graceful Miseries of Poetry, >For which I profusely thanked you. By the way, though, that would be "a blurb for his and Alexandra Papaditsas's mostly witty and graceful Miseries of Poetry." [KSM] I think the Yasusada project is at least deserving of serious critical notice, >Correct me if I'm misreading your phrasing, but you almost sound like you're unaware the "Yasusada project" has received (I'm just being objective here, as its caretaker) as much "serious critical notice" as any single work of American poetry in the past decade. And there is significantly more to come. One of my main concerns, though, Kasey, is that you would choose to post this unprovoked crap (on which see my comment regarding "your cake " below) exactly as the new Yasusada book appears-produced by a publisher and friend who has worked very hard on your behalf, as well. Your tantrum-with-no- motive kicks a little distracting pile of dirt on a book whose covers are barely cut, and I find this curious timing somewhat disturbing, to say the least. [KSM] and I even think some of the Iraq war stuff is worthwhile (though again, I have no idea what he's going for by throwing his personal poetic grudges into the mix, and I find those moments offensive in their trivialization of atrocity). >I find this tiresome and uncharacteristically numbskulled on your part, Kasey. I will simply quote my answer to the same accusation made elsewhere. And I would encourage you to read some of the various commentaries on the book that take a less simplistic look at the presence of the "politics of poetry" within the overall concerns of the collection. Anyway, here's what I said a few weeks back, in reply to an early, very negative review: Your misunderstanding (I think the fashionable term is "misprision"), though, is at its greatest in what you intend as the most damning point of your review: that the various writings in Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz use, in your words, ". . . war victims . . . to score cheap points against poets." I'd argue-and it's clear that numerous readers of the book already see it this way too-that it is really the other way around: The often cheap world of our poetry, left and right, is deployed in the work as a kind of scale-model theatrical setting for placing the starkest light this poet can shine on the fucked-up madness of this war-a war in which you, I, and all American poets can't help but be complicit, banal and "old news" as that suggestion may seem. It's a small gesture, yes, and most likely doomed for irrelevance. But as we wait for Godot, or whatever, prattling absurdly away as we are, having so much clever fun, blogging and partying and Googling, let's pause every so often and listen to the screams, even let them, awkwardly, into our art. Mind you, I'm not claiming there is an absolutely clear line between the world of poetry and the world of war in my book-or that the writing is pure of intention and heart, virtuously condemning something bad "out there." The situation presented is admittedly blurrier than that. And that blurriness would be very much to the point. We speak from where we are; what we can see, if we're honest, will be present in what we feel called upon to say. It's not always pretty, what comes out in such implication, and it will hardly ever be popular. Hopefully, we'll manage to say whatever we say with a measure of humor, even in these most dismal times . . . [KSM] I'm not interested in debating any of this further with Kent or anyone else. I just want my position known, since Kent saw fit to mention my name. I am so done now. >Actually, the matter's not really "done," whether you choose to directly respond or not. In any case, my "mention of your name," in this poem http://fascicle.com/issue01/main/contents_frameset.htm, was as follows: "You will eat the cake that Kasey baked." So, I have to ask, borrowing some language from you: What the fuck is wrong with that? There's nothing at all to get upset about there. The line honors you a bit, actually, suggestively framing you, as I have it elsewhere (in a fun piece coming out in Adventures in Poetry Blogland), as the T.S. Eliot of your peers! True, the line also might be seen as implying that you, Kasey, can't have your cake and eat it, too. But that shouldn't be anything to get so fired up about* I mean, look at me: I'm not really getting upset, and I've had your "funny" friend do funny things like taking a poem I wrote out of love for my son, and then rewriting it on his blog to have my son sodomizing me. So given the "context" of things, as they say, I think you should not be too upset, Kasey, even if you do feel I am a "passive aggressive, manipulative" poet whose "naming names" has become "obnoxious." OK? OK. I'll be printing this reply in Adventures in Poetry Blogland, so it will be there for the longer record... I hope we're still reading together in Providence in a month. I think maybe I'll begin there by reading the Fortune Cookies poem. Perhaps when you hear it out loud, you won't find it so objectionable. Kent ---- From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 6 14:59:42 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:59:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] K. Johnson to K. Mohammad References: Message-ID: <016001c5b315$24c36f00$f29c9951@Robin> Jeezus, Kent, you do go *on* sometimes. Can't you practice succinct just occasionally? :-( Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 7:43 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] K. Johnson to K. Mohammad > K. Johnson to K. Mohammad > > > [Below is a post which Kasey Silem Mohammad posted to his blog, Lime Tree, on September 1, 2005. My replies are arrowed within his comments. From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Tue Sep 6 15:15:15 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 14:15:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] K. Johnson to K. Mohammad Message-ID: >Jeezus, Kent, you do go *on* sometimes. Well, Robin, there's a lot to say... I think I'm being rather restrained, actually, given what I've been putting up with lately. Kent From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 6 15:33:04 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:33:04 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] K. Johnson to K. Mohammad References: Message-ID: <017701c5b319$cdda5780$f29c9951@Robin> > >Jeezus, Kent, you do go *on* sometimes. > > > Well, Robin, there's a lot to say... > > I think I'm being rather restrained, actually, given what I've been > putting up with lately. > > Kent Well, if it's any consolation, I'm having problems too. My check must have been with CCCP for over a week now and still no Lacan. Then last night I found myself possessed by a sudden impulse (not something that comes over me often) to re-read +Doubled Flowering+ which I bought in e-book format ages ago. Do you know, not only couldn't I find it on my new computer but I discovered that even if I *had* found it, I wouldn't have been able to open it without the original Adobe Authorisation Code. Which, natch, I lost irretrievably since forever. Not a happy camper, me. :-( Robin From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Sep 6 15:33:16 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:33:16 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Orleans Message-ID: <000c01c5b319$d4ce6ea0$9be83652@ANNY> Murder and rape - fact or fiction? Gary Younge in Baton Rouge Tuesday September 6, 2005 The Guardian There were two babies who had their throats slit. The seven-year-old girl who was raped and murdered in the Superdome. And the corpses laid out amid the excrement in the convention centre. In a week filled with dreadful scenes of desperation and anger from New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina some stories stood out. But as time goes on many remain unsubstantiated and may yet prove to be apocryphal. New Orleans police have been unable to confirm the tale of the raped child, or indeed any of the reports of rapes, in the Superdome and convention centre. New Orleans police chief Eddie Compass said last night: "We don't have any substantiated rapes. We will investigate if the individuals come forward." And while many claim they happened, no witnesses, survivors or survivors' relatives have come forward. Nor has the source for the story of the murdered babies, or indeed their bodies, been found. And while the floor of the convention centre toilets were indeed covered in excrement, the Guardian found no corpses. During a week when communications were difficult, rumours have acquired a particular currency. They acquired through repetition the status of established facts. One French journalist from the daily newspaper Lib?ration was given precise information that 1,200 people had drowned at Marion Abramson school on 5552 Read Boulevard. Nobody at the Federal Emergency Management Agency or the New Orleans police force has been able to verify that. But then Fema could not confirm there were thousands of people at the convention centre until they were told by the press for the simple reason that they did not know. "Katrina's winds have left behind an information vacuum. And that vacuum has been filled by rumour. "There is nothing to correct wild reports that armed gangs have taken over the convention centre," wrote Associated Press writer, Allen Breed. "You can report them but you at least have to say they are unsubstantiated and not pass them off as fact," said one Baltimore-based journalist. "But nobody is doing that." Either way these rumours have had an effect. Reports of the complete degradation and violent criminals running rampant in the Superdome suggested a crisis that both hastened the relief effort and demonised those who were stranded. By the end of last week the media in Baton Rouge reported that evacuees from New Orleans were carjacking and that guns and knives were being seized in local shelters where riots were erupting. The local mayor responded accordingly. "We do not want to inherit the looting and all the other foolishness that went on in New Orleans," Kip Holden was told the Baton Rouge Advocate. "We do not want to inherit that breed that seeks to prey on other people." The trouble, wrote Howard Witt of the Chicago Tribune is that "scarcely any of it was true - the police confiscated a single knife from a refugee in one Baton Rouge shelter". "There were no riots in Baton Rouge. There were no armed hordes." Similarly when the first convoy of national guardsmen went into New Orleans approached the convention centre they were ordered to "lock and load". But when they arrived they were confronted not by armed mobs but a nurse wearing a T-shirt that read "I love New Orleans". "She ran down a broken escalator, then held her hands in the air when she saw the guns," wrote the LA Times. "We have sick kids up here!" she shouted. "We have dehydrated kids! One kid with sickle cell!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Tue Sep 6 15:41:46 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] K. Johnson to K. Mohammad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050906194146.38920.qmail@web54603.mail.yahoo.com> Kent, You are right, there are more important things going on in the world calling for your talent, time and energy... Keep up with them for the sake of us who like your writing! Best, Rosie Kent Johnson wrote: >Jeezus, Kent, you do go *on* sometimes. Well, Robin, there's a lot to say... I think I'm being rather restrained, actually, given what I've been putting up with lately. Kent _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Tue Sep 6 15:57:45 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:57:45 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Collins In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B4F@mail.emerson.edu> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B4F@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <1126036665.431df4b95768b@webmail.sfsu.edu> But the real question is whether Hallmark Greeting Card sales are up or down. Are their writers doing a good enough job w/accessibility? Do people truly believe that fewer people are buying EVERY genre of literature because some poetry is difficult? I guess in the good old days when those easy writers like Mallarme and Wallace Stevens were at it, things were better. Or were people busy with Joyce Kilmer then or "accessible" poets we've never heard of because their poetry wasn't too important and they've since been forgotten? Maybe if people don't read as much it has something to do with their lives in the world. I'd guess that if one works at Walmart or teaches in an overcrowded and difficult, underfunded (Leave No Children Behind) school that maybe he/she needs to come home and take a big nap and watch some reality TV. Or maybe he/she takes books out of the library rather than spending their already stretched funds on books. Maybe poetry can't be blamed for this dangerous decline in reading. Maybe economics can. Maxine Chernoff Quoting William Knott : > i recommend the interview with Collins at: > http://sltrib.com/arts/ci_2999035 > > i agree with everything he says about > "unreadable" and "unfathomable" poetry.... > > see the introduction to his anthol '180 More' > for examples. . . > > ... knotthead > From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Sep 6 17:24:57 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:24:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Chris S. [addendum] Message-ID: <200509062001.j86K10Qr090720@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Dear kent---if you want a mutual two-way street form of communication (or debate; whatever) based on equality, I'm up for that. But of course we'd have to come up with some mutually acceptable definition of what constitutes equality (so far, I feel it's mostly been very one-way; with you setting the terms, and if I don't play within your particular terms, you drop the conversation--), but that could just be me. Anyway, re your post below, I could just as validly ask, don't you think it's relevant, that a little band by a little poet who has an 11-letter last name in the little space of american poetry is starting to have some impact that is different than the usual closed circle excrements? C ---------- >From: "Kent Johnson" >To: >Subject: [New-Poetry] To Chris S. [addendum] >Date: Mon, Sep 5, 2005, 1:05 PM > > I'd said: > >>Don't you think it is relevant, given the debates that have occured > and which are still unfolding, that a little book in the little space > of > American post-avant poetry is having some impact that is different > than > the usual closed-circle excitements? > > > To which I would like to add: Instead of the meaningless personal > snipes, brother, why don't you really contribute to those debates, and > make some statements? You have some contributions to offer... > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From rog3r.day at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 16:46:31 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:46:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] K. Johnson to K. Mohammad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Echo Robin's comments. Leave it out, my son. You're better than this. (that's best spoken in an East End accent). Besides, did you get KC's permission to post that here? Roger On 9/6/05, Kent Johnson wrote: > K. Johnson to K. Mohammad > > > [Below is a post which Kasey Silem Mohammad posted to his blog, Lime Tree, on September 1, 2005. My replies are arrowed within his comments. I haven't necessarily enjoyed saying some of the below, especially at a time when there are things of much greater import happening in the world. But given the personal charges, I've felt the need to respond in short order. I've noticed that my answers become increasingly prickly as the response unfolds. I think the context will explain this. In any case, it's high time some of these things got said. KJ] > > * > > Fascicle, et al. > > > [KSM] I'm behind everyone else in reporting this, but Fascicle (I can't see that title without picturing a frozen nazi on a stick) is now online. It's a huge and hugely impressive effort on the part of Tony Tost, Kent Johnson, and all other editorial entities involved. > > >Thank you, Kasey. Tony deserves all credit. He's begun a project that I believe will be a major contribution to current poetry. > > [KSM] I'm not so enthusiastic, however, about Kent's own three "creative" entries--the naming-names schtick was trite when it started, and now it's just obnoxious. > > >Well, glad you think they are "creative"! :~ ) But really, Kasey, I think you are a bit "off your game" here, in regards to the matter of naming names, its "schtickness" and "obnoxiousness," as you put it. "Naming names" is a time-honored poetic tradition, as you know. The Greeks and Romans did it (and man, did THEY ever do it!), the Troubadours did it, Dante and the Florentines did it, the Elizabethans did it, the Augustans did it (subtly, but with unmatched violence and glee), Pound did it, the New York poets did it, the Flarfists do it (your Fascicle poems, in fact, make humorous, some might say flippant, mention of T.S. Eliot, Robert Duncan, and the recently departed Susan Sontag, among others), and that's just the quickest graph. Of course, the most prolific (and often most unkind) "namers" of other poets of all time are [drum roll]* Poetry Bloggers! So, yeah, I mention names every once in a while, too, in my obscure, light verses, and do so almost always in perfectl! > y harmless, funny (at least some people think so), and friendly ways. The NY poets sestina is perfectly quaint, a little homage, if anything-David Shapiro, who knew all the people mentioned therein, loves it, said he thinks O'Hara, Koch, and Schuyler would really like it, too. And "The Best American Poetry," what's the big deal? I hear, for example, already, that James Tate and Dean Young are delighted by it... And the Fortune Cookie poem after O'Hara, about which more later, why there are less names in mine than there are in O'Hara's original, I think! No, what's interesting, Kasey, is why this is such a big deal to some people, including you, apparently. Well, let's leave a full analysis of those "why's" for some other time, as a whole book could be written about it (and no doubt things WILL be written about it, i.e., about the prissy sensitivities of our conformist and cautious post-avant field). Anyway, we need more fun in American poetry, I've been saying for a while. M! > ore comradely contest* More epigramitists (incidentally, you want names, wait for my Epigramititis: 111 Living American Poets, out in later November, 250 pp. of names!)* More poets who praise and satirize and pull no punches, like Hipponax and Catullus (weren't those guys really great?)* For curio's sake, we even need more adolescent goonies like Jim Behrle (whose, um, rather violent and pornographic "naming of names" you apparently don't find obnoxious in the least! Uh, big HMMM there, Kasey...). > > [KSM] I wouldn't even bother mentioning it, except that I'm increasingly annoyed by Kent's passive-aggressive manipulative behavior, of which his poetry is just one visible symptom. > > >Aha! Now we are getting to some meat... So let's see, you claim I exhibit a passive aggressive, manipulative nature, and that one visible sign of this is that I throw a few names into my lighthearted poems here and there, poking or praising poets living or dead--that is, you see it as "passive aggressive" of me to be up front with who I'm talking about, inviting, by so doing, open and direct riposte, praise, scorn, critique, all of which I get plenty of. But do you not see the irony and hypocrisy in your position, Kasey? Could you really be so oblivious to the behavior that most blatantly characterizes a certain visible grouping of poetry bloggers, a grouping that has evolved into a de facto self-promoting fraternity, a boys club that uses embarrassingly obvious passive-aggressive feints and bobs to promote its clubbiness--and which, moreover, endorses and eggs-on (as you, Gary Sullivan, Jordan Davis, Jonathan Mayhew, and a few other fellow-travelers openly do) the wildest! > , most slanderous type of ad hominem acting out on the part of its clearly troubled mascot? So let me suggest to you, since you seem too close to the painting to appreciate the scene, that the post-avant world is one little area of our culture where passive aggressiveness in service of petty flag-planting is generously on display, a place where one finds a very obnoxious surfeit of manipulative one-upmanship, cowardly behind-the-scenes maligning, prolific public innuendo and vilification, craven ass-kissing, vindictive blacklisting, and so forth (does anyone want to dispute the truth of that list?): And a certain "popular" corner of Poetry Blogland--which has fraternal connections, in turn, to certain publications, reading venues, etc.-- has refined these behaviors into a kind of Living Theater art form. In its environs, it's hunky-dory to name names, to insult and belittle, to shame and defame, so long as the target is not one of the coterie... Of course, I perfectly realiz! > e you and your cohorts will force a sarcastic laugh, denying this indignantly, while claiming "hallucination" on my part. I mean, I realize that's all part of the schtick, as it were* And though plenty of people will know exactly what I am talking about, plenty of minor, eager figures will no doubt flock to your cliquish fraternity's defense. That's predictable and good: The mix will make future studies of this poignant sub-cultural moment all the meatier. > > [KSM] I always seem to get dragged into it somehow, and I'm really bored with it. What > fucking "cake" did I bake, Kent? Do you have a problem with me? Then express it directly. Start your own blog or something, say what's on your mind, and can it with the lame "literary" stunts. > > >Ah, yes, "literary stunts"* FLARF, anyone? > > [KSM] Just for the record, although I'm already way past regretting bringing any of this up in the first place, I thought it was uncalled for when Jim Behrle contacted Kent's boss. > > >How magnanimous of you. > > [KSM] I say this not because I consider it my place to reprimand Jim, but because I don't want some stupid situation in which I am implicitly understood (i.e., by Kent) as condoning any and all attacks on Kent in any manner just because I think Jim's funny and mostly right most of the time. > > >No, it wouldn't, of course, be your place to reprimand your "funny" buddy for the most boorish and unethical behavior, but it's clearly your place to publicly accuse me of being manipulative, etc., and so forth. (Kasey, am I really responding to something written by you here? You're a very smart guy, but this is so incompetent in all its brazen contradictions, I'm honestly not sure!) > > [KSM] (Though I'm stumped as to why Jim chose to immortalize Tony as a cartoon wookiee, other than that one of the most amusing things about Jim's razor wit [besides that it's all rusty and covered with gross body hair] is that it frequently flies shuriken-style in all directions for no good reason. We'll all take turns. I'll get mine too.) I also don't want this to get construed as me "choosing sides" in some bullshit quarrel that is largely Kent's own hallucination in the first place. > > >Yes, I had begun to suspect the nine or ten years of all those very public and personal attacks against me for being executor of the Yasusada writings were just "hallucinations." Thank you for confirming that I have simply imagined there might be some subtextual connection between the current animus sent my way and that history. There is no reason, after all, I should have been so irresponsible as to fantasize such: I know that you, Gary Sullivan (whose histrionic and then disappeared attacks on Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz were no doubt also just "hallucinations"), Jordan Davis, Jonathan Mayhew, Jim Behrle, and assorted new pledges to Alpha Blogga Chi think that Yasusada is just super-duper cool, and that you bear no trace of resentment or antagonism toward that work whatsoever. I know now I have merely hallucinated the various snide and disparaging remarks about Yasusada made over the past years by all the above people of your affinity group. Thank you for confirming my s! > uspicions. > > [KSM] It's on record that I've found much of Kent's work interesting and impressive. > > >It's on record that I have praised your work a great deal more than you have mine. Funny, I don't think I can recall one single instance of you ever acknowledging my admirations, publicly or privately. > > [KSM] I wrote a blurb for his mostly witty and graceful Miseries of Poetry, > > >For which I profusely thanked you. By the way, though, that would be "a blurb for his and Alexandra Papaditsas's mostly witty and graceful Miseries of Poetry." > > [KSM] I think the Yasusada project is at least deserving of serious critical notice, > > >Correct me if I'm misreading your phrasing, but you almost sound like you're unaware the "Yasusada project" has received (I'm just being objective here, as its caretaker) as much "serious critical notice" as any single work of American poetry in the past decade. And there is significantly more to come. One of my main concerns, though, Kasey, is that you would choose to post this unprovoked crap (on which see my comment regarding "your cake " below) exactly as the new Yasusada book appears-produced by a publisher and friend who has worked very hard on your behalf, as well. Your tantrum-with-no- motive kicks a little distracting pile of dirt on a book whose covers are barely cut, and I find this curious timing somewhat disturbing, to say the least. > > [KSM] and I even think some of the Iraq war stuff is worthwhile (though again, I have no idea what he's going for by throwing his personal poetic grudges into the mix, and I find those moments offensive in their trivialization of atrocity). > > >I find this tiresome and uncharacteristically numbskulled on your part, Kasey. I will simply quote my answer to the same accusation made elsewhere. And I would encourage you to read some of the various commentaries on the book that take a less simplistic look at the presence of the "politics of poetry" within the overall concerns of the collection. Anyway, here's what I said a few weeks back, in reply to an early, very negative review: > > Your misunderstanding (I think the fashionable term is "misprision"), though, is at its greatest in what you intend as the most damning point of your review: that the various writings in Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz use, in your words, ". . . war victims . . . to score cheap points against poets." > > I'd argue-and it's clear that numerous readers of the book already see it this way too-that it is really the other way around: The often cheap world of our poetry, left and right, is deployed in the work as a kind of scale-model theatrical setting for placing the starkest light this poet can shine on the fucked-up madness of this war-a war in which you, I, and all American poets can't help but be complicit, banal and "old news" as that suggestion may seem. It's a small gesture, yes, and most likely doomed for irrelevance. But as we wait for Godot, or whatever, prattling absurdly away as we are, having so much clever fun, blogging and partying and Googling, let's pause every so often and listen to the screams, even let them, awkwardly, into our art. > > Mind you, I'm not claiming there is an absolutely clear line between the world of poetry and the world of war in my book-or that the writing is pure of intention and heart, virtuously condemning something bad "out there." The situation presented is admittedly blurrier than that. And that blurriness would be very much to the point. We speak from where we are; what we can see, if we're honest, will be present in what we feel called upon to say. It's not always pretty, what comes out in such implication, and it will hardly ever be popular. Hopefully, we'll manage to say whatever we say with a measure of humor, even in these most dismal times . . . > > > [KSM] I'm not interested in debating any of this further with Kent or anyone else. I just want my position known, since Kent saw fit to mention my name. I am so done now. > > >Actually, the matter's not really "done," whether you choose to directly respond or not. In any case, my "mention of your name," in this poem http://fascicle.com/issue01/main/contents_frameset.htm, was as follows: > "You will eat the cake that Kasey baked." > So, I have to ask, borrowing some language from you: What the fuck is wrong with that? There's nothing at all to get upset about there. The line honors you a bit, actually, suggestively framing you, as I have it elsewhere (in a fun piece coming out in Adventures in Poetry Blogland), as the T.S. Eliot of your peers! True, the line also might be seen as implying that you, Kasey, can't have your cake and eat it, too. But that shouldn't be anything to get so fired up about* I mean, look at me: I'm not really getting upset, and I've had your "funny" friend do funny things like taking a poem I wrote out of love for my son, and then rewriting it on his blog to have my son sodomizing me. So given the "context" of things, as they say, I think you should not be too upset, Kasey, even if you do feel I am a "passive aggressive, manipulative" poet whose "naming names" has become "obnoxious." > > OK? > > OK. I'll be printing this reply in Adventures in Poetry Blogland, so it will be there for the longer record... I hope we're still reading together in Providence in a month. I think maybe I'll begin there by reading the Fortune Cookies poem. Perhaps when you hear it out loud, you won't find it so objectionable. > > Kent > > ---- > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- http://www.badstep.net From William_Knott at emerson.edu Tue Sep 6 17:59:52 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 17:59:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu> uh, Max, didn't you post a plea somewhere recently, asking for subscribers and contributions to your failing Post-Avant mag, New American Writing. . .? maybe if, instead of the PA pap you publish there, you featured poets that people want to read, poets like Billy Collins or Sharon Olds or Rita Dove or Philip Levine et al, poets whose books actually sell through many printings, poets who can and do reach a wider audience than your mag does, maybe if you published poets whose work is *accessible* (as defined by Collins in his introduction to his anthol, '180 More') maybe you wouldn't have to beg for subscribers....? ....knotthead -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2758 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 18:33:03 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:33:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I was sodomizing Kent in that poem Message-ID: <9cf3604505090615333b1a18c7@mail.gmail.com> The speaker, me, the great Jimmu. His son sounds like a nice guy that his father should keep out of the old karma canyon he's livin' in. Just cuz I took Kent's form and turned it around...Forgive me, it was delicious. One minute you like the poem (Jim wrote me a poem when I was sick! Check it out he says!) And then goes into the old boohoo my son is raping me in a Piggly Wiggly. You're a community college instructor! Open your mind to the possibilities of poems! Welcome what you have sown as it toxically collects in your unfortunate facial hair. Luv Jimmy jimbehrle.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 18:56:34 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:56:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boring v. Boorishness Message-ID: <9cf36045050906155636237121@mail.gmail.com> Sheesh, Kent--tell me, did the Martins and the Peloponesians and the Lilliputians and all of other people knocking around your multiball *bitch* as much as you do when their crap got thrown back at them? What a wuss you are. Get out of satire if you don't like the way it feels: old and out-of-breath. Why don't you publish 5,000 more chapbooks about it: everyone's already lined up around the Piggly Wiggly waiting for their copies. Lighten up, drink some hemlock. Luv Jimmy jimbehrle.com PS: I'll suspend my end of it and extend my hand: it's obvious you can't handle my end of it and I feel like I'm just picking on you, slapping you around. Be well-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 6 19:09:54 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 00:09:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] mayakovsky quote; answering Kent References: <20050906182815.51219.qmail@web54607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <020301c5b338$184717e0$f29c9951@Robin> From: Rosie Shkodrov << Well, I'm interested in what do you get from Mayakovsky? To me he is an example of pure propaganda... >> I'm not sure there's such a thing as "pure propaganda". I used (for myself) to define the difference between political poetry and propagandist poetry as the difference between Yevtushenko's "Party Card" and Mayakovsky's "My Soviet Passport", but now I'm not so sure. With Mayakovsky, there's always something more -- propaganda plus? I still think the most powerful example of propagandist poetry was Shelley's "Mask of Anarchy", even if it does go on for too many stanzas. Robin My Soviet Passport by Vladimir Mayakovsky (1929) I'd tear like a wolf at bureaucracy. For mandates my respect's but the slightest. To the devil himself I'd chuck without mercy Every red-taped paper. But this . . . Down the long front of coup?s and cabins File the officials politely. They gather up passports and I give in My own vermilion booklet. For one kind of passport-- smiling lips part For others-- an attitude scornful. They take with respect, for instance, the passport from a sleeping-car English Lionel. The good fellow's eyes almost slip like pips when, bowing as low as men can, they take, as if they were taking a tip, the passport >From an American. At the Polish, they dolefully blink and wheeze in dumb police elephantism-- where are they from, and what are these geographical novelties? And without a turn of their cabbage heads, their feelings hidden in lower regions, they take without blinking, the passports from Swedes and various old Norwegians. Then sudden as if their mouths were aquake those gentlemen almost whine Those very official gentlemen take that red-skinned passport of mine. Take-- like a bomb take--like a hedgehog, like a, razor double-edge stropped, take like a rattlesnake huge and long with at least 20 fangs poison-tipped The porter's eyes give a significant flick (I'll carry your baggage for nix, mon ami . . .) The gendarmes enquiringly look at the tec, the tec, at the gendarmerie. With what delight that gendarme caste would have me strung-up and whipped raw because I hold in my hands' hammered-fast sickle-clasped I my red Soviet passport. I'd tear like a wolf at bureaucracy. For mandates my respect's but the slightest. To the devil himself I'd chuck without, mercy. every red-taped paper. But this . . . I pull out of my wide trouser-pockets duplicate of a priceless cargo. You now: read this and envy, I'm a citizen of the Soviet Socialist Union! Translated by Herbert Marshall Party Card, Yevgeny Yevtushenko A SHOT-UP forest full of black holes. Mind-crushing explosions. He wants some berries, he wants some berries: the young lieutenant, lying in his blood. I was a smallish boy, who crawled in the long grass till it was dark and brought him back a cap of strawberries, and when they came there was no use for them, the rain of July lightly falling. He was lying in remoteness and silence among the ruined tanks and the dead. The rain glistened on his eyelashes. There were sadness and worry in his eyes. I waited saying nothing and soaking, like waiting for an answer to something he couldn't answer. Passionate with silence unable to see when he asked me, I took his party card from his pocket. And small and tired and without understanding wandering in the flushed and smoking dark, met up with refugees moving east and somehow through the terribly flashing night we travelled without tickets, the priest with his long grey hair and his rucksack, and me and a sailor with a wounded arm. Child crying. Horse whinnying. And answered to with love and with courage and white, white, the bell-towers rang out speaking to Russia with a tocsin voice. Wheatfields blackened round their villages. In the woman's coat I wore at that time. I felt for the party card close to my heart. http://www.chelmsfordtuc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/songsnew.html Chelmsford Trades Union Council Trade Union Songs and Socialist Poetry From jimbehrle at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 19:16:12 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:16:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] THAT SILLIMAN SITCOM: Wednesday at the Bowery Poetry Club NYC Message-ID: <9cf3604505090616163600c474@mail.gmail.com> Now Silliman's someone who can take a joke and has weathered all of my boorishness with grace. Thus we present: ******************************************** "THAT SILLIMAN SITCOM: The Pilot!" Taped live in front of a studio audience in the greatest city in the world! Wednesday 9/7 at 8 PM Bowery Poetry Club Come see some of your favorite poets perform live onstage! 308 Bowery @ Bleecker, right across from CBGB's F train to Second Ave | 6 train to Bleecker | 212-614-0505 [listen to the theme] $6 ********************************************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Sep 6 19:25:50 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:25:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> uh, Max, didn't you post a plea somewhere recently, asking for subscribers and contributions to your failing Post-Avant mag, New American Writing. . .? maybe if, instead of the PA pap you publish there, you featured poets that people want to read, poets like Billy Collins or Sharon Olds or Rita Dove or Philip Levine et al, poets whose books actually sell through many printings, poets who can and do reach a wider audience than your mag does, maybe if you published poets whose work is *accessible* (as defined by Collins in his introduction to his anthol, '180 More') maybe you wouldn't have to beg for subscribers....? ....knotthead He could get even more readers if he published rap lyrics. --Bob G. From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Tue Sep 6 19:33:40 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 16:33:40 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark In-Reply-To: <00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu> <00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu> or pictures of naked women. Quoting Bob Grumman : > uh, Max, didn't you post a plea somewhere recently, > asking for subscribers and contributions to your > failing Post-Avant mag, New American Writing. . .? > > maybe if, instead of the PA pap you publish there, > you featured poets that people want to read, poets > like Billy Collins or Sharon Olds or Rita Dove or > Philip Levine et al, poets whose books actually > sell through many printings, poets who can and do > reach a wider audience than your mag does, maybe > if you published poets whose work is *accessible* > (as defined by Collins in his introduction to his anthol, > '180 More') maybe you wouldn't have to beg for > subscribers....? > > ....knotthead > > He could get even more readers if he published rap lyrics. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Tue Sep 6 20:01:31 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 17:01:31 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark In-Reply-To: <00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu> <00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1126051291.431e2ddb7242c@webmail.sfsu.edu> It's odd how our sales have decreased, according to Bill Knott, while we publish many of the same people over the years including Bill Knott. Also, we've added lots of poetry in translation, which is often very accessible, given that it's translated into English, so maybe we can ascribe blame to Americans not wanting to read Chinese, Vietnamese, Canadian, Polish, or Serbian poets? I think not. I hope not. The point of our complaint about our magazine and the large chains is that we ARE selling just about the same # of magazines as always but being penalized with all kinds of extra assessments and fees by the bookstores and distributors. I can't imagine sales doubling or tripling if we were to publish yet another poem by a fantastically accessible poet instead of introducing American audiences to a mixture of new poets, new poetries, the difficult, and the accessible. MC Quoting Bob Grumman : > uh, Max, didn't you post a plea somewhere recently, > asking for subscribers and contributions to your > failing Post-Avant mag, New American Writing. . .? > > maybe if, instead of the PA pap you publish there, > you featured poets that people want to read, poets > like Billy Collins or Sharon Olds or Rita Dove or > Philip Levine et al, poets whose books actually > sell through many printings, poets who can and do > reach a wider audience than your mag does, maybe > if you published poets whose work is *accessible* > (as defined by Collins in his introduction to his anthol, > '180 More') maybe you wouldn't have to beg for > subscribers....? > > ....knotthead > > He could get even more readers if he published rap lyrics. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Sep 6 20:19:37 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:19:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu> Message-ID: <001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Quoting Bob Grumman : > >> uh, Max, didn't you post a plea somewhere recently, >> asking for subscribers and contributions to your >> failing Post-Avant mag, New American Writing. . .? >> >> maybe if, instead of the PA pap you publish there, >> you featured poets that people want to read, poets >> like Billy Collins or Sharon Olds or Rita Dove or >> Philip Levine et al, poets whose books actually >> sell through many printings, poets who can and do >> reach a wider audience than your mag does, maybe >> if you published poets whose work is *accessible* >> (as defined by Collins in his introduction to his anthol, >> '180 More') maybe you wouldn't have to beg for >> subscribers....? >> >> ....knotthead >> >> He could get even more readers if he published rap lyrics. >> >> --Bob G. > or pictures of naked women. > Well, yeah, but the idea is to publish POETRY that sells. --Bob From tad at opus40.org Tue Sep 6 20:24:07 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:24:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Collins References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B4F@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <00af01c5b342$79d78cb0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> I think it's bullshit, with all respect. Collins is brilliant; most people who try to write like him are awful. Trying to be "reaable" and "approachable" all too often leads to Andy Rooney poetry -- didja ever notice...? I'm all for approachability. But you don't get magic from it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Knott" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 1:47 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Collins i recommend the interview with Collins at: http://sltrib.com/arts/ci_2999035 i agree with everything he says about "unreadable" and "unfathomable" poetry.... see the introduction to his anthol '180 More' for examples. . . ... knotthead -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From uche at ogbuji.net Tue Sep 6 23:39:23 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:39:23 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me In-Reply-To: <019501c5ad5a$cb453720$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> References: <008601c5a99a$c1136a60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <02dc01c5a99d$ca39ea80$f29c9951@Robin><1125016223.2938.36.camel@malatesta> <004b01c5aa15$c1b42150$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505082605593261f8a4@mail.gmail.com> <006601c5aa4b$48d49e50$f29c9951@Robin><1125083893.2938.71.camel@malatesta> <33abf2750508261307404912cf@mail.gmail.com> <1125103019.2938.100.camel@malatesta> <33abf27505082618543f773b87@mail.gmail.com> <1125193356.2938.129.camel@malatesta> <019501c5ad5a$cb453720$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <1126064363.25671.75.camel@malatesta> On Tue, 2005-08-30 at 07:57 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: > What's the reason to speak of "promotion" while denying "high" and "low" as > descriptors of dialects? Of course my use of "promotion" has to do with categorization according to number of speakers, rather than class of speakers. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Sep 7 00:02:23 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:02:23 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is this list about, anyway? In-Reply-To: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com> References: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126065743.25671.78.camel@malatesta> What the fuck is going on around here? Over 300 messages in about a week, and on what? Does this sort of thing happen often? On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 09:07 -0400, Jim Behrle wrote: > I went back and counted and the last 50,009,987,435 posts have been > either about Kent Johnson "The Highlander" or about my pink > underpants. Unless I hear otherwise, my posts will contain whatever > the hell it is I want to add to the scintillating conversations being > had: this week fake trucks!!!! And old guy poets that faked their > deaths in the 1970s who know have book deals who sneer at people's > blogs!!!! And British people who put the days before the month when > they write the date!!! I'll start popping the popcorn *now*. > > Does that say new-poetry above every post? > > What's new for Fall 2005? > > Luv > Jimmy > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From kpaul at mallasch.com Wed Sep 7 00:21:39 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 23:21:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] What is this list about, anyway? In-Reply-To: <1126065743.25671.78.camel@malatesta> References: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com> <1126065743.25671.78.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <20050906232126.V78938@kpaul.spinweb.net> On 9/6/05, kpaul mallasch wrote: On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 09:07 -0400, poetry happened. (Uche Ogbuji & Jim Behrle wrote:) What the fuck is going on around here? << a poetic hurricane, none of us prepared? >> Over 300 messages in about a week, and on what? (I went back and counted) Kent Johnson "The Highlander" old guy underpants (the hell it is) Does this sort of thing happen often? (50,009,987,435 posts) and the last have been either about deaths sneer or about my pink fake trucks!!!! (this week, Unless I hear otherwise) my posts will contain whatever I want to add to the poets that faked their scintillating conversations (who being British) had: (in the 1970s) blogs!!!! And book deals And people who know the date!!! (I'll start.) who put the popping before the month at "people's popcorn days" they say when have *now* the write (Does that new-poetry -- Fall above every post?) What's new for 2005? Luv >> Jimmy "a mailing list" (of) New-Poetry -kpaul mallasch.com On Tue, 6 Sep 2005, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > What the fuck is going on around here? > > Over 300 messages in about a week, and on what? > > Does this sort of thing happen often? > > On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 09:07 -0400, Jim Behrle wrote: >> I went back and counted and the last 50,009,987,435 posts have been >> either about Kent Johnson "The Highlander" or about my pink >> underpants. Unless I hear otherwise, my posts will contain whatever >> the hell it is I want to add to the scintillating conversations being >> had: this week fake trucks!!!! And old guy poets that faked their >> deaths in the 1970s who know have book deals who sneer at people's >> blogs!!!! And British people who put the days before the month when >> they write the date!!! I'll start popping the popcorn *now*. >> >> Does that say new-poetry above every post? >> >> What's new for Fall 2005? >> >> Luv >> Jimmy >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Wed Sep 7 00:22:49 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:22:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark In-Reply-To: <001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu> <001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu> Isn't another name for poetry that sells advertising jingles? WIth it, one could sell cars, trucks, boats, Hummers, Jello, toilet paper, any number of things. Is the way we now judge poetry in America that which sells? If we want to be salespeople, we might try bibles or ice cream or cigarettes or sex toys or pistols or self-help books on how to housebreak dogs or tell your husband is cheating, all WAY more popular than poetry. And if everyone in America were to buy a poem, would that improve poetry? MC Quoting Bob Grumman : > > Quoting Bob Grumman : > > > >> uh, Max, didn't you post a plea somewhere recently, > >> asking for subscribers and contributions to your > >> failing Post-Avant mag, New American Writing. . .? > >> > >> maybe if, instead of the PA pap you publish there, > >> you featured poets that people want to read, poets > >> like Billy Collins or Sharon Olds or Rita Dove or > >> Philip Levine et al, poets whose books actually > >> sell through many printings, poets who can and do > >> reach a wider audience than your mag does, maybe > >> if you published poets whose work is *accessible* > >> (as defined by Collins in his introduction to his anthol, > >> '180 More') maybe you wouldn't have to beg for > >> subscribers....? > >> > >> ....knotthead > >> > >> He could get even more readers if he published rap lyrics. > >> > >> --Bob G. > > > or pictures of naked women. > > > > Well, yeah, but the idea is to publish POETRY that sells. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Sep 7 04:30:37 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:30:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark Message-ID: <200509070706.j8776eNF105414@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Maxine and others-- The notion that poetry can be survive and thrive separate from the marketplace is a valiant notion, and one I've believed in, even "fought" for, staked my very identity on, and though i can still hold out some hope, the point is (at least in my experience) that the kind of salesmanship that exists as much in a so called "purer" poetry that doesn't "sell" involves a lot of the same commodification of self and art as many of the other things you mention. People "submit" to magazines or anonymous contests or curators of reading series, and if they're rejected it's almost unavoidable to say to yourself, "Oh, they publish this poet but not me; what does S/HE do that I don't?" etc. Okay, this is not the best example, but it's harder to find counter-examples of published poets who DON'T act like salesmen (maybe someone like Anselm Berrigan doesn't have to). Actually, even if the work is accepted, a kind of "professional conscience" exists, as so many poets become acutely aware of the fashion and a certain kind of economics and "cultural capital," even if they don't admit to such concerns publicly (the only exceptions to this I can find are poets of course no one on this list has probably ever heard of, for obvious reasons!)--- Anyway, how is the dynamic of submission, etc. NOT the same "law of the marketplace"?---It seems to me the only main difference is that one cannot "make a living" on the sales of ones product, and even there of course many poets who aren't "popular" and don't "sell," manage to get teaching jobs precisely because their poetry isn't popular or sells (whether these poets are called "mainstream" or "avant-garde"; it's a different argument)--to uphold a certain high culture notion of poetry--not that this is a bad thing--but to claim that it doesn't involve salesmanship (maybe of the PERSON more than the poem; which may be the distinction you were getting at Maxine), I'm sorry but I can't go there--- Chris Is the way we now judge poetry in America that which sells? If we > want to be salespeople, we might try bibles or ice cream or cigarettes or sex > toys or pistols or self-help books on how to housebreak dogs or tell your > husband is cheating, all WAY more popular than poetry. ---------- >From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark >Date: Tue, Sep 6, 2005, 8:22 PM > > Isn't another name for poetry that sells advertising jingles? WIth it, one > could sell cars, trucks, boats, Hummers, Jello, toilet paper, any number of > things. Is the way we now judge poetry in America that which sells? If we > want to be salespeople, we might try bibles or ice cream or cigarettes or sex > toys or pistols or self-help books on how to housebreak dogs or tell your > husband is cheating, all WAY more popular than poetry. And if everyone in > America were to buy a poem, would that improve poetry? MC > > Quoting Bob Grumman : > >> > Quoting Bob Grumman : >> > >> >> uh, Max, didn't you post a plea somewhere recently, >> >> asking for subscribers and contributions to your >> >> failing Post-Avant mag, New American Writing. . .? >> >> >> >> maybe if, instead of the PA pap you publish there, >> >> you featured poets that people want to read, poets >> >> like Billy Collins or Sharon Olds or Rita Dove or >> >> Philip Levine et al, poets whose books actually >> >> sell through many printings, poets who can and do >> >> reach a wider audience than your mag does, maybe >> >> if you published poets whose work is *accessible* >> >> (as defined by Collins in his introduction to his anthol, >> >> '180 More') maybe you wouldn't have to beg for >> >> subscribers....? >> >> >> >> ....knotthead >> >> >> >> He could get even more readers if he published rap lyrics. >> >> >> >> --Bob G. >> >> > or pictures of naked women. >> > >> >> Well, yeah, but the idea is to publish POETRY that sells. >> >> --Bob >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 7 06:21:05 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:21:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me References: <008601c5a99a$c1136a60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><02dc01c5a99d$ca39ea80$f29c9951@Robin><1125016223.2938.36.camel@malatesta><004b01c5aa15$c1b42150$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505082605593261f8a4@mail.gmail.com><006601c5aa4b$48d49e50$f29c9951@Robin><1125083893.2938.71.camel@malatesta><33abf2750508261307404912cf@mail.gmail.com><1125103019.2938.100.camel@malatesta><33abf27505082618543f773b87@mail.gmail.com><1125193356.2938.129.camel@malatesta><019501c5ad5a$cb453720$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126064363.25671.75.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <00a201c5b396$b0d96270$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> "Of course"? What the hell? You're still saying that one is better than the other when you use "promotion" -- you're just saying one is better because more common rather than one is better because of some other reason. If you're going to criticize the notion of "high and low" dialects then you ought to be a good deal more careful in using such notions as "promotion" -- or else admit that the notions of "high and low" dialects are as much merely descriptions of number of people or terms of art as "promotion" is in your usage. After all, it's perfectly conceivable that we can use "high and low" to describe number instead of class. Marcus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uche Ogbuji" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:39 PM Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me > On Tue, 2005-08-30 at 07:57 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: >> What's the reason to speak of "promotion" while denying "high" and "low" >> as >> descriptors of dialects? > > Of course my use of "promotion" has to do with categorization according > to number of speakers, rather than class of speakers. > > -- > Uche Ogbuji > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uche Ogbuji" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me > On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 21:54 -0400, Donna Casinghino wrote: > >> And in my ignorant defense (or my defense of my ignorance)--I don't >> even know what idiolect is. :) > > Idiolect is a variation of a language peculiar to one person. It's a > person's characteristic speech. I've also seen it used as a term for > dialect within a very small group (e.g. one family). It's generally > accepted in linguistics that idiolect is promoted to dialect, and > dialect to language through the agency of historical and demographic > forces. > Uche Ogbuji > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Sep 7 06:41:59 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:41:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark References: <200509070706.j8776eNF105414@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <002d01c5b398$c7141470$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I would agree that we're all trying to sell what we do in one way or another. for me, there are thus two questions involved: to whom should the poet hope to sell his poetry, the unsophisticaed many or the sophisticated few, and how much should the poet let those to whom he is aiming his poems dictate what he writes instead of aesthetics. My own ideal is writing to please one's own aesthetic taste ONLY, but with the hope that others will have a similar-enough taste to enjoy one's poems--and even pay for them in whatever way. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 7 07:33:12 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:33:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark References: <200509070706.j8776eNF105414@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> <002d01c5b398$c7141470$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01a301c5b3a0$2c9ca5d0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Where doesthe poet's "aesthetic taste" come from, though, Bob? It's not created de novo in a vacuum. It evolves out of the cultures, micro and macro, in which the poet lives. To say that the poet should write for his or her own "aesthetic taste" is like saying "vote your conscience" -- the terms are so broad as to be meaningless.. It can't be done, by US poets living in the US, so pervasive and powerful are the cultures, micro and macro, that the poet is necessarily immersed in simply to live from day to day. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark >I would agree that we're all trying to sell what we do in one way or >another. for me, there are thus two questions involved: to whom should the >poet hope to sell his poetry, the unsophisticaed many or the sophisticated >few, and how much should the poet let those to whom he is aiming his poems >dictate what he writes instead of aesthetics. > > My own ideal is writing to please one's own aesthetic taste ONLY, but with > the hope that others will have a similar-enough taste to enjoy one's > poems--and even pay for them in whatever way. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 7 07:50:59 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:50:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark References: <200509070706.j8776eNF105414@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> <002d01c5b398$c7141470$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01a901c5b3a2$6e94da50$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Where does the poet's "aesthetic taste" come from, though, Bob? It's not created de novo in a vacuum. It develops out of the cultures, micro and macro, in which the poet is necessarily immersed in simply to live from day to day. To some extent one can shape one's own aesthetic by paying more attention to some aspects of the culture than others, but even a contrarian is shaped by what he positions himself contrary to. I suspect your notion of "aesthetic taste" is completely divorced from your fundamental assertion that poetry is a measurable activity: that new techniques displace and replace old ones, because they produce better poems, as, to use your own example, the Fosbury Flop displaced and replaced the scissors jump because athletes could get over higher bars. To the extent you embrace the notion of "aesthetic taste" you must deny that poetry is sport, that it is measurable in any objective way. To the extent you insist that there is a scientific or objective measure of poetry you must deny the significance of "aesthetic taste" except as the sort of grace note that "elegance" constitutes in math or logic proofs. An ugly and unnecessarily complicated proof is still a proof; an awkward or clumsy leap that clears the bar still clears the bar. If clearing the bar or nailing the proof is the real object, then aesthetics is unimportant. If one's aesthetic taste is primary, then whether one clears the bar or gets the proof right is irrelevant -- it is more important to look good than to be good. You're contradicting yourself, again, Bob. Marcus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark >I would agree that we're all trying to sell what we do in one way or >another. for me, there are thus two questions involved: to whom should the >poet hope to sell his poetry, the unsophisticaed many or the sophisticated >few, and how much should the poet let those to whom he is aiming his poems >dictate what he writes instead of aesthetics. > > My own ideal is writing to please one's own aesthetic taste ONLY, but with > the hope that others will have a similar-enough taste to enjoy one's > poems--and even pay for them in whatever way. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Sep 7 07:51:45 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:51:45 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark References: <200509070706.j8776eNF105414@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net><002d01c5b398$c7141470$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <01a301c5b3a0$2c9ca5d0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <005b01c5b3a2$85eddf80$d3ed3652@ANNY> I have my doubts Marcus here, even if the way you say whatever you are saying makes sense, it is the starting point which is wrong. Poetry keeps on re-inventing itself whatever tools you are using, free verse - rhyme - complex / simple vocabulary, and so forth. This is the challenge, beauty, complexity of poetry, and that is why we will never be able to define it, best wishes, my lunch-hour is over, Anny From: "Marcus Bales" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 1:33 PM > Where doesthe poet's "aesthetic taste" come from, though, Bob? It's not > created de novo in a vacuum. It evolves out of the cultures, micro and > macro, in which the poet lives. To say that the poet should write for his > or her own "aesthetic taste" is like saying "vote your conscience" -- the > terms are so broad as to be meaningless.. It can't be done, by US poets > living in the US, so pervasive and powerful are the cultures, micro and > macro, that the poet is necessarily immersed in simply to live from day to > day. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 6:41 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark > > >>I would agree that we're all trying to sell what we do in one way or >>another. for me, there are thus two questions involved: to whom should >>the poet hope to sell his poetry, the unsophisticaed many or the >>sophisticated few, and how much should the poet let those to whom he is >>aiming his poems dictate what he writes instead of aesthetics. >> >> My own ideal is writing to please one's own aesthetic taste ONLY, but >> with the hope that others will have a similar-enough taste to enjoy one's >> poems--and even pay for them in whatever way. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mandolin at mac.com Wed Sep 7 08:07:16 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 08:07:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark In-Reply-To: <1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu> <00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu> <001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu> Message-ID: <1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, September 07, 2005, at 00:23AM, wrote: >Isn't another name for poetry that sells advertising jingles? WIth it, one >could sell cars, trucks, boats, Hummers, Jello, toilet paper, any number of >things. Is the way we now judge poetry in America that which sells? In the long run, this is exactly how poetry gets judged everywhere. Shelley and Dickinson and Shakespeare and Frost and Dante and Lorca and Plath and Stevens and Donne and Whitman and Kipling still sell. If and when their work stops selling to anyone but grad students required to buy it for a course, their work won't matter anymore. If we >want to be salespeople, we might try bibles or ice cream or cigarettes or sex >toys or pistols or self-help books on how to housebreak dogs or tell your >husband is cheating, all WAY more popular than poetry. And if everyone in >America were to buy a poem, would that improve poetry? MC > Nope -- but it would improve (American) poetry if every poet in America would every day consider this statement from the biologist Richard Dawkins: "I think, let the science speak, because it's inherently fascinating. That's one piece of advice. The second, separate piece is try to put yourself?it's so obvious, I mean it doesn't need saying?in the position of the reader. Not just one reader, but, successively, lots of different readers. Imagine this was being read by Uncle Joe, imagine this was being read by your doctor, imagine this was being read by your lawyer, imagine this was being read by your old French teacher. So every time you read through your stuff, imagine it through the eyes of some particular individual, and it will have an automatic sort of Darwinian selection effect on your words, and you'll recognize?"Oh, he wouldn't have understood that, she wouldn't have got that point," and so you change it. And by the time a chapter has been through this succession of filters, it comes out clearer, because you've anticipated all the difficulties that people will have. " If you have difficult things to say, you have to work especially hard, in Collins's terms, to invite the reader in. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From mandolin at mac.com Wed Sep 7 08:23:48 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 08:23:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark In-Reply-To: <1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu> <00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu> <001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu> <1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <10163243.1126095828744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Sorry for rplying to my own post -- but I forgot to include the URL for the source of the Dawkins quote: http://www.americanscientist.org/template/InterviewTypeDetail/assetid/41240 And it's got poetry content, as well! On Wednesday, September 07, 2005, at 08:10AM, Mike Snider wrote: > >On Wednesday, September 07, 2005, at 00:23AM, wrote: > >>Isn't another name for poetry that sells advertising jingles? WIth it, one >>could sell cars, trucks, boats, Hummers, Jello, toilet paper, any number of >>things. Is the way we now judge poetry in America that which sells? > > >In the long run, this is exactly how poetry gets judged everywhere. Shelley and Dickinson and Shakespeare and Frost and Dante and Lorca and Plath and Stevens and Donne and Whitman and Kipling still sell. If and when their work stops selling to anyone but grad students required to buy it for a course, their work won't matter anymore. > > > If we >>want to be salespeople, we might try bibles or ice cream or cigarettes or sex >>toys or pistols or self-help books on how to housebreak dogs or tell your >>husband is cheating, all WAY more popular than poetry. And if everyone in >>America were to buy a poem, would that improve poetry? MC >> > >Nope -- but it would improve (American) poetry if every poet in America would every day consider this statement from the biologist Richard Dawkins: > >"I think, let the science speak, because it's inherently fascinating. That's one piece of advice. The second, separate piece is try to put yourself?it's so obvious, I mean it doesn't need saying?in the position of the reader. Not just one reader, but, successively, lots of different readers. Imagine this was being read by Uncle Joe, imagine this was being read by your doctor, imagine this was being read by your lawyer, imagine this was being read by your old French teacher. So every time you read through your stuff, imagine it through the eyes of some particular individual, and it will have an automatic sort of Darwinian selection effect on your words, and you'll recognize?"Oh, he wouldn't have understood that, she wouldn't have got that point," and so you change it. And by the time a chapter has been through this succession of filters, it comes out clearer, because you've anticipated all the difficulties that people will have. " > >If you have difficult things to say, you have to work especially hard, in Collins's terms, to invite the reader in. > > >----- >Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. >http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 7 10:16:17 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:16:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu><001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu> <1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <01db01c5b3b6$bbcc8610$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Mike Snider wrote: > ... it would improve (American) poetry if every poet in America would > every day consider > this statement from the biologist Richard Dawkins: > "I think, let the science speak, because it's inherently fascinating. > That's one piece of advice. > The second, separate piece is try to put yourself-it's so obvious, I mean > it doesn't need > saying-in the position of the reader. Not just one reader, but, > successively, lots of different > readers. Imagine this was being read by Uncle Joe, imagine this was being > read by your > doctor, imagine this was being read by your lawyer, imagine this was being > read by your old > French teacher. ..." > If you have difficult things to say, you have to work especially hard, in > Collins's terms, to > invite the reader in. Just so. If it were so easy to write "accessible poems" why aren't all the avant gardists first famous as traditionalists? Wouldn't you think they'd take the minimal time and effort it would take them, since they say it's so easy, to write "accessible poems" in order to establish a reputation that would get their more experimental work published with the authority of experience? I think, though, that the avant gardists do indeed ask themselves the questions Dawkins asks. They ask whether their avant garde friends and colleagues will "get it", and they write their poems attempting to appeal to that small circle. I think, too, they do ask themselves whether their old French teacher or Mrs Smith down the block will get it, and they try very hard to make sure that doesn't happen. The point of avant gardism, after all, is to be misunderstood now in the hopes of being the subject of a lot of academic papers later. The avant garde has not just abandoned, but rather has discarded the notion of being remembered by ordinary people. They want to be remembered by PhD students and their advisors. Take Grumman, for example. He lives in a culture that is largely math-, poetry-, and grammar-phobic. So what does he do? He claims to write poems by substituting math operands for English grammar. You have to know a good deal about English grammar and mathematics to approach his poems at all, in order to see what elements of grammar have been replaced by what kinds of operands, and to puzzle out the hidden meanings. This is certainly not the poetry of quietude, but it is, though, the poetry of acrostics. Grumman misunderstands the very nature of poetry in attempting what he claims is a new technique for writing poems, one that he hopes will replace the existing techniques as the Fosbury Flop replaced the scissors kick in the high jump -- and for the same reason: because it's better; because it allows merely mediocre Floppers to jump higher than even expert Scissorers. He hopes thereby to raise the level of poetry in general as those expert in the Grumman Flop exceed the mediocre who exceeded the traditionalists who work in the inferior fields of English grammar. This is elitism with a vengeance! Grumman's goal is not to make poetry more accessible in any sense of the word. His goal is to make it more and more inaccessible, as the world record for the high jump has become more and more inaccessible to all but a small handful of elite athletes. Grumman doesn't even seem to aspire to be one of the athletes -- he just wants to be the guy who thought of a new technique that others use to reach heights of poetry previously not only unscalable but unimaginable to the unenlighghtened who remain mired in a natural language. Of course, on his theory that no poem can be really good unless it uses a new technique, his theory is doomed to the trash bin of history because if anyone buys into Grumman's theory of newness they'll certainly not spend any time at all using math operands as grammar -- because it's an old technique. That's so been done, dude. Further, poetry is not sport; while p;remier athletes are happy to work on doing a better Salkow, for example, what poet other than Grumman himself wants to be known known for doing a good Grumman? Poetry is a different kind of endeavor from either sport or science, and Grumman's attempts to use the techniques, or at least the labels, of sport or science in poetry is like rooting for a biologist to discover a new quantum particle, or for the Indians to make a touchdown. Marcus From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Sep 7 11:16:01 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:16:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me In-Reply-To: <00a201c5b396$b0d96270$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> References: <008601c5a99a$c1136a60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <02dc01c5a99d$ca39ea80$f29c9951@Robin><1125016223.2938.36.camel@malatesta> <004b01c5aa15$c1b42150$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505082605593261f8a4@mail.gmail.com> <006601c5aa4b$48d49e50$f29c9951@Robin><1125083893.2938.71.camel@malatesta> <33abf2750508261307404912cf@mail.gmail.com> <1125103019.2938.100.camel@malatesta> <33abf27505082618543f773b87@mail.gmail.com> <1125193356.2938.129.camel@malatesta> <019501c5ad5a$cb453720$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126064363.25671.75.camel@malatesta> <00a201c5b396$b0d96270$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <1126106161.25671.85.camel@malatesta> On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 06:21 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: > "Of course"? What the hell? You're still saying that one is better than the > other when you use "promotion" -- you're just saying one is better because > more common rather than one is better because of some other reason. If > you're going to criticize the notion of "high and low" dialects then you > ought to be a good deal more careful in using such notions as "promotion" -- > or else admit that the notions of "high and low" dialects are as much merely > descriptions of number of people or terms of art as "promotion" is in your > usage. After all, it's perfectly conceivable that we can use "high and low" > to describe number instead of class. You're obviously spoiling for a fight. You're spoiling for one badly enough to not use common sense while reading. I'm not interested. EOT. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Sep 7 11:17:57 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:17:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is this list about, anyway? In-Reply-To: <20050906232126.V78938@kpaul.spinweb.net> References: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com> <1126065743.25671.78.camel@malatesta> <20050906232126.V78938@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <1126106277.25671.88.camel@malatesta> Thanks, gee. That's much better. --Uche On Tue, 2005-09-06 at 23:21 -0500, kpaul mallasch wrote: > On 9/6/05, kpaul mallasch wrote: > > On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 09:07 -0400, > poetry happened. > > (Uche Ogbuji & Jim Behrle wrote:) > > What the fuck > is going on > around here? > > << a poetic hurricane, > none of us prepared? >> > > Over 300 messages > in about a week, > and on what? > > (I went back and counted) > > Kent Johnson > "The Highlander" > old guy underpants > > (the hell it is) > > Does this sort > of thing > happen > often? > > (50,009,987,435 posts) > > and the last > have been > either about > deaths sneer > or about > my pink > fake trucks!!!! > > (this week, Unless I hear otherwise) > > my posts will > contain whatever > I want to add to the > poets that faked their > scintillating conversations > > (who being British) > > had: (in the 1970s) > blogs!!!! > And > book deals > And > people who > know > the date!!! > > (I'll start.) > who put the popping > before the month > at "people's popcorn > days" > > they say > when have > > *now* > the > write > > (Does that new-poetry > -- Fall > above every post?) > > What's new for 2005? > > Luv > >> Jimmy > "a mailing list" > (of) New-Poetry > > > > > > > -kpaul > mallasch.com > > On Tue, 6 Sep 2005, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > > > What the fuck is going on around here? > > > > Over 300 messages in about a week, and on what? > > > > Does this sort of thing happen often? > > > > On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 09:07 -0400, Jim Behrle wrote: > >> I went back and counted and the last 50,009,987,435 posts have been > >> either about Kent Johnson "The Highlander" or about my pink > >> underpants. Unless I hear otherwise, my posts will contain whatever > >> the hell it is I want to add to the scintillating conversations being > >> had: this week fake trucks!!!! And old guy poets that faked their > >> deaths in the 1970s who know have book deals who sneer at people's > >> blogs!!!! And British people who put the days before the month when > >> they write the date!!! I'll start popping the popcorn *now*. > >> > >> Does that say new-poetry above every post? > >> > >> What's new for Fall 2005? > >> > >> Luv > >> Jimmy > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Wed Sep 7 11:19:03 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 10:19:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Idea for New American Writing Message-ID: Maxine (and Paul): Why not turn NAW into an on-line magazine? I can think of three convincing arguments in favor: 1) You will have MANY more readers. 2) You will have no printing costs. 3) You will have much more space to present poets. Regarding # 3, I recently helped gather a very large amount of international material for the first issue of Tony Tost's Fascicle. In fact, the hugeness of the offering in that single issue is very unusual, possibly unmatched, in recent times. Of course, it's the on-line nature of the product that makes such generous quantity possible. Obviously, NAW is committed to making new poetry from around the world available to readers. Why not go the Fascicle route? This way, you will not just be able to better present new world writing, but also be better able to present it TO the World. You could, even doing this, keep NAW a subscription based mag, if you wished (Kind of like Postmodern Culture), or charge a nominal fee for reading each issue. Then you could use this money and buy ad space in selected magazines, or hire top-flight web designers. Or you could save the money for a few years and then return to print format after you have saved enough to do so. I understand you may wish to keep NAW a print magazine. If so, it would be interesting to hear why you consider that so important, given the obvious potential benefits I have outlined above for an alternate format. Kent From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 7 11:31:05 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:31:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu><001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu><1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <01db01c5b3b6$bbcc8610$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <006901c5b3c1$2a421100$f29c9951@Robin> From: "Marcus Bales" > Take Grumman, for example. He lives in a culture that is largely math-, > poetry-, and grammar-phobic. So what does he do? He claims to write poems by > substituting math operands for English grammar. You have to know a good deal > about English grammar and mathematics to approach his poems at all ... Actually, with Bob, it helps *not* to know too much about mathematics, otherwise you get puzzled as to how you can derive a fraction of zero. I had two takes at "1/2 0 equals c" (not Bob himself, but Bob quoting and commenting on a rather nice image by Nico Vassilakis, on his blog) before I decided that even Einstein would have been baffled. Just goes to show. Something. Maybe Bob knows something the rest of us don't. Robin From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Wed Sep 7 11:37:53 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 08:37:53 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark In-Reply-To: <10163243.1126095828744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu> <00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu> <001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu> <1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <10163243.1126095828744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <1126107473.431f0951af757@webmail.sfsu.edu> Sorry to keep going on this, but the problem isn't long-running successful work that is valued, appreciated, and sells over time. Did Emily D. sell in her lifetime? She was, by that marker, mostly a "failure." What seems puzzling to me in the discussion is that we're perhaps not talking about what is enduring about poetry. Is Vallejo particularly accessible? Is Pound or Stevens? Is Lorca always? Do readers of Shakespeare breeze through the first time with all the richness understood? And don't even transparent poets now and then experiment with opacity and consider other means to explore and deepen or otherwise alter their approach to the task of writing? Should they furrow their brows and watch market trends before they do? It's important to be careful in accounting and stick to transparent measures as some big companies recently brought down by fraud have learned, but being "startling" or "original" in poetry is hardly comparable to "cooking the books." They are virtues, I think, and one that most enduring writers display. When I go to art museums I see work that is immediately accessible to me NOW that caused a stir when it first appeared because of its strangeness, darkness, abstractness, distortion of line, etc. There were riots when the post- Impressionists first exhibited. Now zillions of people line up for their shows and their paintings are mass-produced on aprons, calendars, and key-chains. Hurray for commerce. Given time and something beyond one's first take on things, other rich and deep qualities often do shine through. No one puzzles over Cezanne today but they really fussed over his perspective and habit of outlining things then. So maybe instant success isn't the marker at all. Maybe there's more. That's what I think I'm saying. Instant success: making a baloney sandwich takes a second. You need bread, mustard, and baloney. Anyone can instantly understand the "recipe." Anyone can do it given bread, mustard, and baloney (Or mayonnaise for a select few). A five year-old can do it. But there's other good and nourishing and strange and robust food that takes more time to cook and even enjoy tasting. MC All of them sell well. So does Ferlinghetti, who is very accessible. Making Quoting Mike Snider : > Sorry for rplying to my own post -- but I forgot to include the URL for the > source of the Dawkins quote: > http://www.americanscientist.org/template/InterviewTypeDetail/assetid/41240 > > And it's got poetry content, as well! > > On Wednesday, September 07, 2005, at 08:10AM, Mike Snider > wrote: > > > > >On Wednesday, September 07, 2005, at 00:23AM, wrote: > > > >>Isn't another name for poetry that sells advertising jingles? WIth it, one > > >>could sell cars, trucks, boats, Hummers, Jello, toilet paper, any number of > > >>things. Is the way we now judge poetry in America that which sells? > > > > > >In the long run, this is exactly how poetry gets judged everywhere. Shelley > and Dickinson and Shakespeare and Frost and Dante and Lorca and Plath and > Stevens and Donne and Whitman and Kipling still sell. If and when their work > stops selling to anyone but grad students required to buy it for a course, > their work won't matter anymore. > > > > > > If we > >>want to be salespeople, we might try bibles or ice cream or cigarettes or > sex > >>toys or pistols or self-help books on how to housebreak dogs or tell your > >>husband is cheating, all WAY more popular than poetry. And if everyone in > > >>America were to buy a poem, would that improve poetry? MC > >> > > > >Nope -- but it would improve (American) poetry if every poet in America > would every day consider this statement from the biologist Richard Dawkins: > > > >"I think, let the science speak, because it's inherently fascinating. That's > one piece of advice. The second, separate piece is try to put yourself?it's > so obvious, I mean it doesn't need saying?in the position of the reader. Not > just one reader, but, successively, lots of different readers. Imagine this > was being read by Uncle Joe, imagine this was being read by your doctor, > imagine this was being read by your lawyer, imagine this was being read by > your old French teacher. So every time you read through your stuff, imagine > it through the eyes of some particular individual, and it will have an > automatic sort of Darwinian selection effect on your words, and you'll > recognize?"Oh, he wouldn't have understood that, she wouldn't have got that > point," and so you change it. And by the time a chapter has been through this > succession of filters, it comes out clearer, because you've anticipated all > the difficulties that people will have. " > > > >If you have difficult things to say, you have to work especially hard, in > Collins's terms, to invite the reader in. > > > > > >----- > >Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > >http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 7 11:49:44 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:49:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is this list about, anyway? References: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com><1126065743.25671.78.camel@malatesta><20050906232126.V78938@kpaul.spinweb.net> <1126106277.25671.88.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <007701c5b3c3$c67de060$f29c9951@Robin> > Thanks, gee. That's much better. > > --Uche I think Uche has just reminded us of how incestuously self-indulgent the thread stemming from Kent's "Stolen Books" post has become. I mean, it's got to the stage where it bores even *me* rigid, and I'm on the edge of slamming a series of blocks on various posters. Given that I once considered including "Kent Johnson and list-meltdowns" as an appendix to +Internet Discussion Lists Considered in Terms of Primate Territoriality+, jeezus knows what a normal human bean would make of this. Let's talk about something else, folks. How about that "promotion" is a technical term in both linguistics and metrics? Robin > On Tue, 2005-09-06 at 23:21 -0500, kpaul mallasch wrote: > > On 9/6/05, kpaul mallasch wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 09:07 -0400, > > poetry happened. > > > > (Uche Ogbuji & Jim Behrle wrote:) > > > > What the fuck > > is going on > > around here? > > > > << a poetic hurricane, > > none of us prepared? >> > > > > Over 300 messages > > in about a week, > > and on what? [SNIP] From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Sep 7 11:56:05 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:56:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Do I agree with Collins? Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C6B@URANIUM.ripon.college> Do I agree with Billy Collins on the glut of unreadable poetry? Well, yes and no. Yes, in that it's clear that for many poets being accessible or hospitable to the common reader is a badge of dishonor. In many quarters, accessibility equates with sentimentality, cliche, poverty of imagination. So a great deal of energy goes into such now-classic modernist moves as thwarting readerly expectations by disrupting syntax, fragmenting or eliminating narrative, avoiding closure, suppressing transitions, subverting form--in short, questioning all the traditional resources and strategies. All well and good, and all pretty old news--and the careers of Eliot and Williams are certainly sufficient proof that great poetry can flow from such moves. But as the careers of such poets as Frost and Stevens show, innovation and freshness of approach can take less obvious forms, and subversion per se certainly isn't the only game worth playing. One problem with much "experimental" poetry is that so much of the energy goes into such subversion that its main value becomes, after a while, that it's *not* Wordsworth, not Frost, not Billy Collins. And that's just a silly thing to take pride in. As Robert Francis once put it, it's not difficult to be difficult. (And the utter dependency of experimental poetry upon whipping boys like Collins remains grimly amusing.) After a while, especially with the invaluable aid of theoretical models, it's even possible to talk yourself into truly ludicrous positions, such as the idea that narrative is outmoded (best of luck selling that one to the future!), or that nothing much good can be written in meter anymore. Furthermore, Collins seems right in that most readers want a payoff that they're clearly not getting from a great deal of "post-avant" work, which would otherwise be more popular. Anyone who's spent time teaching, at least at the high school or college level, knows that students will endure and even relish quite a lot of difficulty of surface and substance--if they are convinced of a payoff for their efforts. I think Collins is quite right in suggesting that many readers have concluded that whatever payoff might exist for the inhospitable poem is not enough for them. In any event, when the history of our era's poetry is written, I think that it will become clear how wide and deep the mainstream was, and how oddly popular, as compared to many other eras. Poets like Philip Levine, Lucille Clifton, Adrienne Rich, Allen Ginsberg, Jane Kenyon, Gary Snyder, Robert Bly, Sharon Olds, Billy Collins and many many more sell remarkable numbers of books these days, and a good chunk of their audience *seems* to consist of non-poets. Accurate comparative numbers are hard to come by, but it appears that poetry of our time is notably accessible, on average, with an aggregate readership that would have amazed William Carlos Williams in 1925. If nothing else, this demonstrates that relatively "readable" poetry--of various stripes-- does retain some significant audience, even in our post-literate times. Meanwhile, while Bill Moyers helps generate a lot of money for Naomi Nye, the experimentalists blog on, and more power to them and their more limited and ferocious audiences. But no amount of theoretical persuasion or sneering at Garrison Keillor is likely to increase that audience much, or make common readers abandon their age-old fondness for storytelling, for sentences that conclude, for recognizable renderings of typical human situations, etc. But on the other hand, I disagree rather strenuously with Collins for the same reason Katharine Coles did in the article cited: the accessible/inaccessible toggle switch is just too limited a device. There are many axes on which to plot poetry's nature and value, and readability is just one. An important one, I'd argue, but just one. Poems can be aligned on spectra according to their surface and deeper difficulties; their formal innovation; their adherence to traditional forms; their thematic concerns; their directness or obliquity; their diction levels, etc. (Not to mention their relative success or failure at employing all the above.) Actually, I suspect that Collins probably would agree, if pressed; I mean, he's never dismissed difficulty, just willful inhospitability; he's never said he won't teach Yeats because students might have to know something about Irish history or need to look up the word "gyre." As Tad Richards has pointed out, too, accessibility is no more a badge of quality than its opposite. There are so many great poems that are utterly accessible, and many that are junk. Same with more self-consciously challenging poetry. Everyone knows that popularity per se says nothing about quality, in either the short- or long-term; but when faced with truly popular and feisty voices like Billy Collins's, it seems many of us forget this fact rather rapidly. In my ideal critical universe, terms like "accessible" would not be value judgments, positive or negative, just descriptors. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 7 11:53:33 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 11:53:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me References: <008601c5a99a$c1136a60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><02dc01c5a99d$ca39ea80$f29c9951@Robin><1125016223.2938.36.camel@malatesta><004b01c5aa15$c1b42150$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505082605593261f8a4@mail.gmail.com><006601c5aa4b$48d49e50$f29c9951@Robin><1125083893.2938.71.camel@malatesta><33abf2750508261307404912cf@mail.gmail.com><1125103019.2938.100.camel@malatesta><33abf27505082618543f773b87@mail.gmail.com><1125193356.2938.129.camel@malatesta><019501c5ad5a$cb453720$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><1126064363.25671.75.camel@malatesta><00a201c5b396$b0d96270$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126106161.25671.85.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <020801c5b3c5$535a4040$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Oh, please. If you want to criticize the use of words such as "high and low" with respect to dialect you have to be careful using words that have similar meanings, such as "promotion". This is not to fight, this is just a plea to use common sense. Marcus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uche Ogbuji" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me > On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 06:21 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: >> "Of course"? What the hell? You're still saying that one is better than >> the >> other when you use "promotion" -- you're just saying one is better >> because >> more common rather than one is better because of some other reason. If >> you're going to criticize the notion of "high and low" dialects then you >> ought to be a good deal more careful in using such notions as >> "promotion" -- >> or else admit that the notions of "high and low" dialects are as much >> merely >> descriptions of number of people or terms of art as "promotion" is in >> your >> usage. After all, it's perfectly conceivable that we can use "high and >> low" >> to describe number instead of class. > > You're obviously spoiling for a fight. You're spoiling for one badly > enough to not use common sense while reading. I'm not interested. EOT. > > -- > Uche Ogbuji > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 7 12:11:33 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:11:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Promotion as a technical term References: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com><1126065743.25671.78.camel@malatesta><20050906232126.V78938@kpaul.spinweb.net><1126106277.25671.88.camel@malatesta> <007701c5b3c3$c67de060$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <021901c5b3c6$d2aa7490$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> > Let's talk about something else, folks. > How about that "promotion" is a technical term in both linguistics and > metrics? Just my point; and "high" and "low" are the same, they just refer to the economic class that speaks the dialect. To interpret high and low as moral or merit markers in a discussion of dialects instead of as technical terms that distinguish where you find the dialects seems just as silly as interpreting "promotion" to mean something other than its technical meaning in a linguistics or metrics discussion. Marcus From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 7 12:18:35 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:18:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me References: <008601c5a99a$c1136a60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><02dc01c5a99d$ca39ea80$f29c9951@Robin><1125016223.2938.36.camel@malatesta><004b01c5aa15$c1b42150$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505082605593261f8a4@mail.gmail.com><006601c5aa4b$48d49e50$f29c9951@Robin><1125083893.2938.71.camel@malatesta><33abf2750508261307404912cf@mail.gmail.com><1125103019.2938.100.camel@malatesta><33abf27505082618543f773b87@mail.gmail.com><1125193356.2938.129.camel@malatesta><019501c5ad5a$cb453720$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><1126064363.25671.75.camel@malatesta><00a201c5b396$b0d96270$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><1126106161.25671.85.camel@malatesta> <020801c5b3c5$535a4040$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <00ae01c5b3c7$ccbf9aa0$f29c9951@Robin> > Oh, please. If you want to criticize the use of words such as "high and low" > with respect to dialect you have to be careful using words that have similar > meanings, such as "promotion". This is not to fight, this is just a plea to > use common sense. > > Marcus Well, Marcus, it might help if you could manage to distinguish between common usage and specialist usage. It's partly the question of audience. I had no problem with Uche's use of "promotion" (and god knows I'm not a linguistic specialist) but I can see how this might be ambiguous, coming from where you're at. Christ knows, this is a list inhabited by poets mainly, so can't we assume as default that all of us can discriminate between descriptive and prescriptive uses of a term? Or is that too much to ask? Robin (desperately trying to preserve his temper) From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Sep 7 12:20:03 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 11:20:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gilligan died today in North Carolina Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050907110922.02b8f318@mail.ilstu.edu> As a boy three years old, behung already with a Saturnalian sadness (because the first things I remember were physical fights between my mom and already-gone dad), I took solace in the old bronze boxed black & white Sylvania television my mom owned. This was Moorhead, Minnesota, 1969, 304 N. 11th Street. There were 6 kids and no dad. I was the only boy. I recall the September day in 1969, barely 3, that I discovered my Self in someone whom a fat man called the Skipper kept calling Gilligan. It was Gilligan who was blamed for everything -- it was Gilligan who was blamed for stranding the SS Minnow on an uncharted desert island. IT WAS NOT GILLIGAN'S FAULT. Bob Denver, age 70, is died. When I would turn the TV off, by pushing in a plastic bronze-painted button the shape of a golf tee, the field of light in the screen would sadly implode into a dense thistle of light in the center of the screen. Bye bye I would say. And it would drop away into a dark I did not understand. Bye bye Mr Denver. Bye bye. __________________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Wed Sep 7 12:23:26 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 11:23:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Do I agree with Collins? Message-ID: I think this post from David Graham is excellent, something that should be circulated more widely, if possible--it's an excellent discussion starter. I find myself (I'm a bit surprised, I guess!) agreeing with most of it, even though my own "tastes" differ from David G's quite a bit. I would argue a bit with David's assumptions about what "will last"--take a look at the Untermeyer anthologies and see who all the popular names were, or think about the 19th century... my guess is that many of the "accessible" poets David lists will suffer a similar fate. But no matter: The following is his most important point, and he uses a metaphor I have used myself more than once in arguing against some of the silly narrow-mindedness of post-avant axiologies: "Poems can be aligned on spectra according to their surface and deeper difficulties; their formal innovation; their adherence to traditional forms; their thematic concerns; their directness or obliquity; their diction levels, etc. " In the future, there will be different kinds of instruments for measuring the spectra, and hard to say what the poetic cosmologists will find. In the meantime, let's continue to fight against the limiting temptations of poetic ideology--be they Collins-like or Silliman-like. Kent From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Sep 7 12:41:25 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:41:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Do I agree with Collins? In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C6B@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C6B@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <8e097edd58a1ca7f31639f82d8cc09c4@earthlink.net> On Sep 7, 2005, at 11:56 AM, Graham, David wrote: > > In my ideal critical universe, terms like "accessible" would not be > value judgments, positive or negative, just descriptors.? I agree but would go a step further, limiting their descriptive use to buildings that folks in wheelchairs could enter without the help of others. Hal Not responsible for typographical errors. Halvard Johnson ================ email: halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Sep 7 12:52:19 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 11:52:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Do I agree with Kent? Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C6C@URANIUM.ripon.college> > Kent sez: > I would argue a bit with David's assumptions about what "will last"--take a look at the Untermeyer anthologies and see who all the popular names were, or think about the 19th century... my guess is that many of the "accessible" poets David lists will suffer a similar fate. ----------------- I agree with the thrust of this, actually. Levine & Clifton are examples of relatively accessible, relatively popular poets of our time, and yes I am a fan of both--but they may indeed be erased from the collective memory in the future. It's always instructive to see how absolutely sure readers and anthologists of the past were that "the lyrics of Humphrey T. Hogsmut will be read as long as poetry is read. . . . " Of course, I would add that if there's any poetry that has dropped more stonelike into oblivion than the lacy lyrics of Humphrey T. Hogsmut, well, it's the experimental oeuvre of Jasper Jasperwha, who in 1913 wrote his epic JXLR using nothing but consonants, and in invisible ink. . . . My larger point includes the idea that, whether or not Clifton is admitted into the canon (which is not up to me or any of my contemporaries to decide anyhow), I strongly suspect that many of the embattled poetic values she represents will persist, since my reading of history suggests that readers of the future will probably still go for sharp, witty, hospitable poems about the usual lyric themes. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Kent Johnson > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2005 11:23 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Do I agree with Collins? > > I think this post from David Graham is excellent, something that should > be circulated more widely, if possible--it's an excellent discussion > starter. I find myself (I'm a bit surprised, I guess!) agreeing with > most of it, even though my own "tastes" differ from David G's quite a > bit. I would argue a bit with David's assumptions about what "will > last"--take a look at the Untermeyer anthologies and see who all the > popular names were, or think about the 19th century... my guess is that > many of the "accessible" poets David lists will suffer a similar fate. > But no matter: The following is his most important point, and he uses a > metaphor I have used myself more than once in arguing against some of > the silly narrow-mindedness of post-avant axiologies: > > "Poems can be aligned on spectra according to their surface and deeper > difficulties; their formal innovation; their adherence to traditional > forms; their thematic concerns; their directness or obliquity; their > diction levels, etc. " > > In the future, there will be different kinds of instruments for > measuring the spectra, and hard to say what the poetic cosmologists will > find. In the meantime, let's continue to fight against the limiting > temptations of poetic ideology--be they Collins-like or Silliman-like. > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Sep 7 12:58:39 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 11:58:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] sorrow and useful writing Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050903152149.027c6ec0@mail.ilstu.edu> A Message from Eeyore. I'm not sure if all of you will find the below topical to our work. It's kind of a strange subject: sorrow and its relation to what we as poets do. Please forgive this if it strikes you as gratuitously confessional or unseemly, or indeed somehow unctuous. I realize this venue as it's currently formulated is interested in overtly aesthetic issues and perhaps as a group only minimally, if that, in spiritual or psychological issues pertinent to the stuff we do. My point with the below is merely that, as the mid-century sociologist C. Wright Mills pointed out, there is a deep connection, often overlooked, between "personal troubles" and "public issues" -- even if those public issues relate to something like poetry. For the past two and a half years I have been living with a lot of grief and sorrow. It stems, in an immediate sense, from a divorce and separation from my daughter, but underneath those superficial catalysts is an even deeper source that is I think even more subterranean than childhood traumas and is just more or less flat out existential. So, this past month it's kind of come to a head -- and I feel more alone, in one sense, than I've ever felt before. But in another sense I feel this very strong connection to people around me. It was about a year ago that I first noticed this bizarre, almost paradoxical quality in the way sorrow, framing and almost locking me into apparent emotional isolation, can engender a sense of deep connection with others -- a kind of thoroughgoing awareness that we are all united in impending, or already realized, sadness, pain, trauma. I am reminded of Patrick Kavanagh's (d. 1967) rendering: "we are not alone in our loneliness, others have been here and known griefs we thought our special own" I think one of the reasons so many of us avoid making serious efforts to cultivate inner peace is that as soon as we begin to make those efforts, we come face to face with this incredible lifestock of agitation, sorrow, grief, ill will, lust and blame that is within each of us. It's easier, I've often felt, to distract myself from my own inner dis-ease by just blaming someone or some-thing else (Trent Lott's hair, eg). This internal agitation is a serious issue and a serious barrier, I feel, to my being more effective as a citizen, more effective as a friend, as a potential partner (if I ever do partner again) and as a clearer and more useful operant in the mass of electrical and vibrant local and global helpmates. One of the reasons, I sense, that I have had to step back from what I had so fervently embraced in poetry communities only a few short years ago is that I found myself after correspondence more agitated than I was when I began corresponding. What's more, I found that my inherited sense that the world is a fundamentally unfriendly and deeply angry place only continued to deepen. I began to feel more strongly that the world is indelibly woven through with an economy of violence and mistrust. I needed to step back. So I threw myself into Vipassana meditation as a way of touching that sense of friendliness in myself again. What I have found is that the way into a mindstate of joy means that I must learn to feel sorrow, deeply, in my body, so that it does not short-circuit into depression, anxiety, rage and blame. Why? Because not only are these states profoundly destructive to my Self, I tend almost involuntarily to spread them around. In fact, sometimes I would use the very public activities of poetry for distracting myself from states of internal dis-ease -- and in the process I wind up poisoning, with anger or blame, whatever atmosphere I would purport to aid -- often doing so in the guise of "humor" or even "honesty." In any case, this journey has been a hard undertaking -- and it remains very hard at times (especially, for some reasons, recently). And sometimes I just completely fail at it. My point is that the deeper I've gone into seeking happiness the more directly I've had to come face to face with -- strangely -- deep sorrow. I don't really know how it got there inside me, but it's there. I mean, the simple fact that we're all born here eventually to die, that all of our cities and books will certainly be lost under broken dams or storms or yellow bombs, that we ourselves, and our soft children will inevitably suffer great sorrow and bodily pain -- it can kind of be overwhelming if stared at full on: and that alone is enough to get a person down! But, for whatever reason, the sorrow and grief in me are there -- and I've been going steadily deeper into it over the last twenty months, sometimes succumbing to a wallowing in self-pity, sometimes not. In any case, I'm writing this note to this list in part as a way of reformulating for myself and publicly airing, in what I hope is an appropriate venue, what it means for me to be a, well, writer and citizen. In great part it simply means learning that I'm going to live with sorrow for the rest of my life. There is no avoiding it. This isn't mere acquiescence to lugubrious pessimism. I know with some certitude now that one cannot fully have joy in one's being without knowing sorrow absolutely in its depths. Certainly I want to live a joyful life. But to do so means to know that joy is, fundamentally (though perhaps a bit provocatively overstated here), the same thing as sorrow. Furthermore, the attempt to avoid sorrow and grief only redounds upon itself. So, it has been important for me to realize that being a useful writer (if I ever was) isn't merely about doing all the things that useful writers do -- but it's also about, and perhaps primarily about, learning to feel sorrow skillfully rather than allowing it to short-circuit into rage or blame or depression. Or, as in the case of several writers I have known and currently know, suicidal ideation or alcoholism. Anyway, so I arrived at the above probably completely obvious, and perhaps somewhat oddly announced, insights only last October (kind of late in life, most likely) at the age of 38. I didn't really get the courage to write them out publicly until I basically read them the other day already in written form by a psychiatrist at Yale called Paul Fleischman in his book _Cultivating Inner Peace_. I quote some of his words below my signature. The book is essential a practical study of specific means used by various people to develop serenity. I hope you're all well. Warmly, Eeyore Chapter 17 is entitled, "Peace is Facing Sorrow." Some passages I marked: "[Y]ou might be confused to find, having take these steps [toward peace], that you are oppressed by a cloud of sorrow. Yet this would be a good sign, because impersonal and surprising grief is the harbinger beyond the known world of yourself to the horizonless peace you seek...." (161-162) "The more thoughtful and intelligent the person, the deeper their scrutiny of life, and their despair. Despair is the lash that turns our ill-ease into full-fledged knowledge of our plight, and into resolute quest for solution." (163) "Conscious depth of suffering, your own problems and despair, are the Rosetta stone messages by which you can decipher peace." (164) "The more you care, the deeper your despair, the brighter your light of faith will be." (167) Chapter 18 is "Sorrow is a Skill." Some passages from it: "Some people can successfully avoid the depths of life, but if you try to deepen your feelings of peace, you'll unearth within yourself and the world profound unpleasantness.....Logically, the world is unknowable to us, who are brief visitors. In spite of that, because of that, to find peace, we have to confront our despairs, ignite our faith, and learn to feel sorrow." (172) "Sorrow, in the sense I am using it, is not a reaction like tears or retreat to bed, but a response that actively evokes personality traits to operate upon the torn soul and cushion it, until it can heal and reemerge. In this sense of the word, sorrow is not a passive result of life events, but is a learned skill, an achievement. When life weights heavy, sorrow is an emotional response that must be attained as one step toward a life of inner peace." (172-173) "It is surrender of expectation....Those who can bow do not break. When tears flow over the top, fresh growth rises beneath them." (176) "Cleansing, sustaining sorrow is blocked not only by personality fragments like rage and despair, but by the demand for a unilayer of happiness, in denial of the depth of our entanglement with life and death." (177) "Sorrow is the capacity to jettison delusion, to grieve of demise of innocence, to inhale and absorb the brevity and loss that accompany all life, to empathize with this identical plight in every being, and to cleanse the wound with faith's sustained direction. The absence of sorrow, according to this definition, isn't happiness, but fantasy. Based on acknowledgement of inescapable aspects of reality, sorrow is a component of well-being unrelated to sullenness, truculence, or panic. Sorrow is suffering transmuted through meaningful and masterable aliquots of insight into the positive, provocative value of loss." (177) "The deeper and richer our capacity to face reality and stand firm, the more we can positively and peacefully help ourselves and influence others." (178) And finally, Chapter 19, "The Gateway to Sympathetic Joy," begins this way, "A person who has learned the skill of sorrow paradoxically will be lightened by kinship and communion with all beings, and will spontaneously speak in phrases of empathy and saliency." And the chapter ends this way: "....we feel peace when our sense of concern is directed outside ourselves toward others, not as a substitute for self-care, but as an extension of it. Sorrow is what enables pity, dread, or condescension to become compassion. This is one of the deepest ironies of human nature, that our sorrow also contains a leavening celebration..., an alleviating energy and joy that sweeps over us when we can convert dumb anguish into sorrow, compassion, and then participation.... Sorrow is the only gateway to the meadows of sympathetic joy." (183-184) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Sep 7 13:06:23 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 11:06:23 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me In-Reply-To: <020801c5b3c5$535a4040$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> References: <008601c5a99a$c1136a60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <02dc01c5a99d$ca39ea80$f29c9951@Robin><1125016223.2938.36.camel@malatesta> <004b01c5aa15$c1b42150$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505082605593261f8a4@mail.gmail.com> <006601c5aa4b$48d49e50$f29c9951@Robin><1125083893.2938.71.camel@malatesta> <33abf2750508261307404912cf@mail.gmail.com> <1125103019.2938.100.camel@malatesta> <33abf27505082618543f773b87@mail.gmail.com> <1125193356.2938.129.camel@malatesta> <019501c5ad5a$cb453720$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126064363.25671.75.camel@malatesta> <00a201c5b396$b0d96270$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126106161.25671.85.camel@malatesta> <020801c5b3c5$535a4040$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <1126112783.25671.103.camel@malatesta> I'll rescind the "EOT" for a moment, because it seems you might just be genuinely confused. Just as you claim it's hard to take someone else seriously because they perpetrate a lot of hoaxes, it's very hard to take you seriously because you're always baiting people. As an example, the recent explosion of off-topic messages was started and perpetuated by your baiting, as far as I can tell. On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 11:53 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: > Oh, please. If you want to criticize the use of words such as "high and low" Except that I didn't criticize anyone for using those terms, and in fact, no one used them in this thread. > with respect to dialect you have to be careful using words that have similar > meanings, such as "promotion". This is not to fight, this is just a plea to > use common sense. Listen to your own plea, then, and try actually reading what people write. I personally do not criticize anyone just for using terms such as "high" versus "low", "language" versus "dialect", "standard" versus "non-standard", and I use such terms myself. I would criticize people for using such terms carelessly. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Sep 7 13:15:28 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:15:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050907120409.02b84658@mail.ilstu.edu> Gilligan's Wake: An Homage to Bob "Gilligan" Denver Sorrow and Useful Writing: The Embrace of Joy -- is Hard Too Translation: Carlos A. Aguilera's "Retrato de A. Hooper y su esposa" -- A Portrait of A. Hooper and His Wife -- a link to FASCICLE The Bald Brut Man: An Homage to Jean Dubuffet My Public and My Dolly: with Thank to Allyssa Wolf Mamie Van Doren & Viktor Frankl: Man's Search for Meaning -- and the Bomb Blondshell Lyric Poetry after the Fall of Phaeton: NOT an Allegorical Review of Kent Johnson's Chapbook Rather a Remark upon Rod Smith's book MUSIC OR HONESTY http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Sep 7 13:16:19 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 11:16:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Promotion as a technical term In-Reply-To: <021901c5b3c6$d2aa7490$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> References: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com> <1126065743.25671.78.camel@malatesta> <20050906232126.V78938@kpaul.spinweb.net> <1126106277.25671.88.camel@malatesta> <007701c5b3c3$c67de060$f29c9951@Robin> <021901c5b3c6$d2aa7490$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <1126113380.25671.108.camel@malatesta> On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 12:11 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: > > Let's talk about something else, folks. > > How about that "promotion" is a technical term in both linguistics and > > metrics? > > Just my point; and "high" and "low" are the same, they just refer to the > economic class that speaks the dialect. To interpret high and low as moral > or merit markers in a discussion of dialects instead of as technical terms > that distinguish where you find the dialects seems just as silly as > interpreting "promotion" to mean something other than its technical meaning > in a linguistics or metrics discussion. Sure. So who was using them as "moral or merit markers"? In fact who brought up morals or merit? -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 7 13:31:05 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:31:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Promotion as a technical term References: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com><1126065743.25671.78.camel@malatesta><20050906232126.V78938@kpaul.spinweb.net><1126106277.25671.88.camel@malatesta><007701c5b3c3$c67de060$f29c9951@Robin><021901c5b3c6$d2aa7490$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126113380.25671.108.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <010a01c5b3d1$ee0db660$f29c9951@Robin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uche Ogbuji" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Promotion as a technical term > On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 12:11 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: {He didn't, I did ...} > > > Let's talk about something else, folks. > > > How about that "promotion" is a technical term in both linguistics and > > > metrics? > > > > Just my point; and "high" and "low" are the same, they just refer to the > > economic class that speaks the dialect. Actually, Marcus didn't pick up on that point, I did. It's so rarely I get anything right, I'd like to be credited when I do. Nah? boo, sucks ... Robin To interpret high and low as moral > > or merit markers in a discussion of dialects instead of as technical terms > > that distinguish where you find the dialects seems just as silly as > > interpreting "promotion" to mean something other than its technical meaning > > in a linguistics or metrics discussion. > > Sure. So who was using them as "moral or merit markers"? In fact who > brought up morals or merit? > > -- > Uche Ogbuji > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 7 13:56:17 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:56:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me References: <008601c5a99a$c1136a60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><02dc01c5a99d$ca39ea80$f29c9951@Robin><1125016223.2938.36.camel@malatesta><004b01c5aa15$c1b42150$f29c9951@Robin><33abf27505082605593261f8a4@mail.gmail.com><006601c5aa4b$48d49e50$f29c9951@Robin><1125083893.2938.71.camel@malatesta><33abf2750508261307404912cf@mail.gmail.com><1125103019.2938.100.camel@malatesta><33abf27505082618543f773b87@mail.gmail.com><1125193356.2938.129.camel@malatesta><019501c5ad5a$cb453720$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><1126064363.25671.75.camel@malatesta><00a201c5b396$b0d96270$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><1126106161.25671.85.camel@malatesta><020801c5b3c5$535a4040$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126112783.25671.103.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <02b301c5b3d5$746fb110$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> > ... Just as you claim it's hard to take someone else > seriously because they perpetrate a lot of hoaxes, it's very hard to > take you seriously because you're always baiting people. < Ok, I accept that you see it that way. I don't bait people, though, as I see it. From my point of view the situation is that I ask questions that they don't have quick email list answers to and they take that as baiting. > As an example, > the recent explosion of off-topic messages was started and perpetuated > by your baiting, as far as I can tell. The only thing I've been posting about recently, until this, was Kent Johnson's hoax about his stolen poetry books. Sure, the whole thing went way off that topic but not from my doing. I keep trying to bring it back to that topic by asking Kent to post the police report and the insurance claim. Others keep posting about a wide variety of other stuff under the same topic heading. > Except that I didn't criticize anyone for using those terms, and in > fact, no one used them in this thread. Here's what I responded to from you: On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 08:59 -0400, Donna Casinghino wrote: > I agree with what you said--it limits your audience. But discounting > spoken-word and focusing just on the reading of it, I'd put it even > more strongly than you did: Working with any dialect severely > alienates most of your audience. You're effectively thumbing your nose > at everyone but a small minority of people. And it's my opinion that > poetry should be universally accessible and serve to draw people > together, not group us off into cliques. We can do that on our > own. Why would a poet go out of his way to make his poetry > inaccessible to us? Uche Ogbuji wrote: >Wow. This seems hugely overstated to me. First of all, I've already >agreed that dialect reduces audience, but I see nothing wrong with that. >T.S. Eliot writes in dialect, so did Shakespeare. In fact, very few >poets don't. Just to throw up at least one exception, I'll mention Carl >Sandburg, who used very standard language. Jamaican Patois (surely >you're not serious with that "Rasta" tag, are you?), Nuyorican patter, >Nigerian Pidgin are no less legit than Oxonian, Hibernian, or Georgian >gentleman. >And surely the stereotyped "low" dialects should be no more inaccessible >to a student of poetry than the "high" ones. In all cases, you have to >deal with glosses. As Ezra Pound said, if you're not willing to deal >with a little work with glosses, you're not serious about poetry, anyway >(I'd go farther to say say you're not serious about language or even >communication).< That seemed to me to be argument by intimidation aimed at Donna, and it seemed to me to say (and still seems to say) that you're using "high" and "low" here differently than you used "promotion" later. Here you seem to be using "high" and "low" not as terms of art or technical terms but as terms of judgment. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the tone of the whole was lashing, and didn't seem to me to be one of careful scholarly use of terms of art. Thus, I said, later, >> with respect to dialect you have to be careful using words that have >> similar >> meanings, such as "promotion". This is not to fight, this is just a plea >> to >> use common sense. > I personally do not criticize anyone just for using terms such as "high" > versus "low", "language" versus "dialect", "standard" versus > "non-standard", and I use such terms myself. I would criticize people > for using such terms carelessly. Splendid. Me, too. It was my impression that you used them carelessly in your reply to Donna. Perhaps I was wrong. I'd like to hear why you think so, if you do. Marcus From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 14:02:34 2005 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 11:02:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sorrow and useful writing In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050903152149.027c6ec0@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050903152149.027c6ec0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <648208b605090711024c3db940@mail.gmail.com> Gabe: With you 100% and this focus on "personal troubles" and "public issues." With me it was the deaths of three members of my immediate family in the course of 13 months, culminating in the death of my father this year at the exact time of the tsunami that took so many lives. For a while, as my father was dying, I was holed up in a motel a couple of miles from him, kept from visiting as often as I'd liked by a possibly contagious respiratory infection, and tuned to CNN and its 24/7 coverage of the tsunami. My father's futile fight for life became inextricably tied to the larger suffering. Now it's the hurricane and it all comes back. Which is why I become impatient with discussions of what poetry will last and which won't, who has an easy time garnering an audience and who doesn't. Thus, your refocusing strikes a major chord. - Jim On 9/7/05, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > A Message from Eeyore. > > I'm not sure if all of you will find the below topical to our work. It's > kind of a strange subject: sorrow and its relation to what we as poets do. > Please forgive this if it strikes you as gratuitously confessional or > unseemly, or indeed somehow unctuous. I realize this venue as it's > currently formulated is interested in overtly aesthetic issues and perhaps > as a group only minimally, if that, in spiritual or psychological issues > pertinent to the stuff we do. My point with the below is merely that, as > the mid-century sociologist C. Wright Mills pointed out, there is a deep > connection, often overlooked, between "personal troubles" and "public > issues" -- even if those public issues relate to something like poetry. > > For the past two and a half years I have been living with a lot of grief > and sorrow. It stems, in an immediate sense, from a divorce and separation > from my daughter, but underneath those superficial catalysts is an even > deeper source that is I think even more subterranean than childhood traumas > > and is just more or less flat out existential. So, this past month it's > kind of come to a head -- and I feel more alone, in one sense, than I've > ever felt before. But in another sense I feel this very strong connection > to people around me. It was about a year ago that I first noticed this > bizarre, almost paradoxical quality in the way sorrow, framing and almost > locking me into apparent emotional isolation, can engender a sense of deep > connection with others -- a kind of thoroughgoing awareness that we are all > > united in impending, or already realized, sadness, pain, trauma. I am > reminded of Patrick Kavanagh's (d. 1967) rendering: > > "we are not alone in our loneliness, > others have been here and known > griefs we thought our special own" > > I think one of the reasons so many of us avoid making serious efforts to > cultivate inner peace is that as soon as we begin to make those efforts, we > > come face to face with this incredible lifestock of agitation, sorrow, > grief, ill will, lust and blame that is within each of us. It's easier, > I've often felt, to distract myself from my own inner dis-ease by just > blaming someone or some-thing else (Trent Lott's hair, eg). This internal > agitation is a serious issue and a serious barrier, I feel, to my being > more effective as a citizen, more effective as a friend, as a potential > partner (if I ever do partner again) and as a clearer and more useful > operant in the mass of electrical and vibrant local and global helpmates. > > One of the reasons, I sense, that I have had to step back from what I had > so fervently embraced in poetry communities only a few short years ago is > that I found myself after correspondence more agitated than I was when I > began corresponding. What's more, I found that my inherited sense that the > world is a fundamentally unfriendly and deeply angry place only continued > to deepen. I began to feel more strongly that the world is indelibly woven > through with an economy of violence and mistrust. > > I needed to step back. So I threw myself into Vipassana meditation as a way > > of touching that sense of friendliness in myself again. What I have found > is that the way into a mindstate of joy means that I must learn to feel > sorrow, deeply, in my body, so that it does not short-circuit into > depression, anxiety, rage and blame. Why? Because not only are these states > > profoundly destructive to my Self, I tend almost involuntarily to spread > them around. In fact, sometimes I would use the very public activities of > poetry for distracting myself from states of internal dis-ease -- and in > the process I wind up poisoning, with anger or blame, whatever atmosphere I > > would purport to aid -- often doing so in the guise of "humor" or even > "honesty." In any case, this journey has been a hard undertaking -- and it > remains very hard at times (especially, for some reasons, recently). And > sometimes I just completely fail at it. > > My point is that the deeper I've gone into seeking happiness the more > directly I've had to come face to face with -- strangely -- deep sorrow. I > don't really know how it got there inside me, but it's there. I mean, the > simple fact that we're all born here eventually to die, that all of our > cities and books will certainly be lost under broken dams or storms or > yellow bombs, that we ourselves, and our soft children will inevitably > suffer great sorrow and bodily pain -- it can kind of be overwhelming if > stared at full on: and that alone is enough to get a person down! > > But, for whatever reason, the sorrow and grief in me are there -- and I've > been going steadily deeper into it over the last twenty months, sometimes > succumbing to a wallowing in self-pity, sometimes not. In any case, I'm > writing this note to this list in part as a way of reformulating for myself > > and publicly airing, in what I hope is an appropriate venue, what it means > for me to be a, well, writer and citizen. > > In great part it simply means learning that I'm going to live with sorrow > for the rest of my life. There is no avoiding it. This isn't mere > acquiescence to lugubrious pessimism. I know with some certitude now that > one cannot fully have joy in one's being without knowing sorrow absolutely > in its depths. Certainly I want to live a joyful life. But to do so means > to know that joy is, fundamentally (though perhaps a bit provocatively > overstated here), the same thing as sorrow. Furthermore, the attempt to > avoid sorrow and grief only redounds upon itself. So, it has been important > > for me to realize that being a useful writer (if I ever was) isn't merely > about doing all the things that useful writers do -- but it's also about, > and perhaps primarily about, learning to feel sorrow skillfully rather than > > allowing it to short-circuit into rage or blame or depression. Or, as in > the case of several writers I have known and currently know, suicidal > ideation or alcoholism. > > Anyway, so I arrived at the above probably completely obvious, and perhaps > somewhat oddly announced, insights only last October (kind of late in life, > > most likely) at the age of 38. I didn't really get the courage to write > them out publicly until I basically read them the other day already in > written form by a psychiatrist at Yale called Paul Fleischman in his book > _Cultivating Inner Peace_. I quote some of his words below my signature. > The book is essential a practical study of specific means used by various > people to develop serenity. > > I hope you're all well. > > Warmly, > Eeyore > > > Chapter 17 is entitled, "Peace is Facing Sorrow." Some passages I marked: > > "[Y]ou might be confused to find, having take these steps [toward peace], > that you are oppressed by a cloud of sorrow. Yet this would be a good sign, > > because impersonal and surprising grief is the harbinger beyond the known > world of yourself to the horizonless peace you seek...." (161-162) > > "The more thoughtful and intelligent the person, the deeper their scrutiny > of life, and their despair. Despair is the lash that turns our ill-ease > into full-fledged knowledge of our plight, and into resolute quest for > solution." (163) > > "Conscious depth of suffering, your own problems and despair, are the > Rosetta stone messages by which you can decipher peace." (164) > > "The more you care, the deeper your despair, the brighter your light of > faith will be." (167) > > Chapter 18 is "Sorrow is a Skill." Some passages from it: > > "Some people can successfully avoid the depths of life, but if you try to > deepen your feelings of peace, you'll unearth within yourself and the world > > profound unpleasantness.....Logically, the world is unknowable to us, who > are brief visitors. In spite of that, because of that, to find peace, we > have to confront our despairs, ignite our faith, and learn to feel sorrow." > > (172) > > "Sorrow, in the sense I am using it, is not a reaction like tears or > retreat to bed, but a response that actively evokes personality traits to > operate upon the torn soul and cushion it, until it can heal and reemerge. > In this sense of the word, sorrow is not a passive result of life events, > but is a learned skill, an achievement. When life weights heavy, sorrow is > an emotional response that must be attained as one step toward a life of > inner peace." (172-173) > > "It is surrender of expectation....Those who can bow do not break. When > tears flow over the top, fresh growth rises beneath them." (176) > > "Cleansing, sustaining sorrow is blocked not only by personality fragments > like rage and despair, but by the demand for a unilayer of happiness, in > denial of the depth of our entanglement with life and death." (177) > > "Sorrow is the capacity to jettison delusion, to grieve of demise of > innocence, to inhale and absorb the brevity and loss that accompany all > life, to empathize with this identical plight in every being, and to > cleanse the wound with faith's sustained direction. The absence of sorrow, > according to this definition, isn't happiness, but fantasy. Based on > acknowledgement of inescapable aspects of reality, sorrow is a component of > > well-being unrelated to sullenness, truculence, or panic. Sorrow is > suffering transmuted through meaningful and masterable aliquots of insight > into the positive, provocative value of loss." (177) > > "The deeper and richer our capacity to face reality and stand firm, the > more we can positively and peacefully help ourselves and influence others." > > (178) > > And finally, Chapter 19, "The Gateway to Sympathetic Joy," begins this way, > > "A person who has learned the skill of sorrow paradoxically will be > lightened by kinship and communion with all beings, and will spontaneously > speak in phrases of empathy and saliency." > > And the chapter ends this way: > "....we feel peace when our sense of concern is directed outside ourselves > toward others, not as a substitute for self-care, but as an extension of > it. Sorrow is what enables pity, dread, or condescension to become > compassion. This is one of the deepest ironies of human nature, that our > sorrow also contains a leavening celebration..., an alleviating energy and > joy that sweeps over us when we can convert dumb anguish into sorrow, > compassion, and then participation.... Sorrow is the only gateway to the > meadows of sympathetic joy." (183-184) > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Homepages: http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 7 14:04:29 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:04:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu><001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu><1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><01db01c5b3b6$bbcc8610$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <006901c5b3c1$2a421100$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <02c401c5b3d6$a220f7d0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> > From: "Marcus Bales" >> Take Grumman, for example. He lives in a culture that is largely math-, >> poetry-, and grammar-phobic. So what does he do? He claims to write poems > by >> substituting math operands for English grammar. You have to know a good > deal >> about English grammar and mathematics to approach his poems at all ... Robin Hamilton wrote: > Actually, with Bob, it helps *not* to know too much about mathematics, > otherwise you get puzzled as to how you can derive a fraction of zero. > I had two takes at "1/2 0 equals c" (not Bob himself, but Bob quoting and > commenting on a rather nice image by Nico Vassilakis, on his blog) before > I > decided that even Einstein would have been baffled. > Just goes to show. Something. > Maybe Bob knows something the rest of us don't. > Too true. But the same can be said of his "taxonomy". The less you know about science and the scientific method, the better it probably sounds. His constant refrain is that he is busy and hurried and doesn't have time to explain it, but that he knows he's right. Marcus From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Sep 7 14:27:20 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:27:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Promotion as a technical term In-Reply-To: <010a01c5b3d1$ee0db660$f29c9951@Robin> References: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com> <1126065743.25671.78.camel@malatesta> <20050906232126.V78938@kpaul.spinweb.net> <1126106277.25671.88.camel@malatesta><007701c5b3c3$c67de060$f29c9951@Robin> <021901c5b3c6$d2aa7490$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126113380.25671.108.camel@malatesta> <010a01c5b3d1$ee0db660$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <1126117640.25671.123.camel@malatesta> On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 18:31 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Uche Ogbuji" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 6:16 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Promotion as a technical term > > > > On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 12:11 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: > > {He didn't, I did ...} > > > > > Let's talk about something else, folks. > > > > How about that "promotion" is a technical term in both linguistics and > > > > metrics? > > > > > > Just my point; and "high" and "low" are the same, they just refer to the > > > economic class that speaks the dialect. > > Actually, Marcus didn't pick up on that point, I did. > > It's so rarely I get anything right, I'd like to be credited when I do. > > Nah? > > boo, sucks ... Sorry. I messed up the attribution by deleting an extra line. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 7 15:06:41 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:06:41 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Promotion as a technical term References: <9cf36045050901060722c1a778@mail.gmail.com><1126065743.25671.78.camel@malatesta><20050906232126.V78938@kpaul.spinweb.net><1126106277.25671.88.camel@malatesta><007701c5b3c3$c67de060$f29c9951@Robin><021901c5b3c6$d2aa7490$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><1126113380.25671.108.camel@malatesta><010a01c5b3d1$ee0db660$f29c9951@Robin> <1126117640.25671.123.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <001001c5b3df$4a289660$9e178a56@Robin> Uche quoth duc damn: > > > > > Let's talk about something else, folks. > > > > > How about that "promotion" is a technical term in both linguistics and > > > > > metrics? > > > > > > > > Just my point; and "high" and "low" are the same, they just refer to the > > > > economic class that speaks the dialect. > > > > Actually, Marcus didn't pick up on that point, I did. > > > > It's so rarely I get anything right, I'd like to be credited when I do. > > > > Nah? > > > > boo, sucks ... > > Sorry. I messed up the attribution by deleting an extra line. No problemo mate -- I've got used to youz dinge colonials screwing up This Booful Langwig Of Urse. Sanders (of the River) From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Sep 7 15:07:29 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 13:07:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: What Narcissism Means to Me In-Reply-To: <02b301c5b3d5$746fb110$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> References: <008601c5a99a$c1136a60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <02dc01c5a99d$ca39ea80$f29c9951@Robin><1125016223.2938.36.camel@malatesta> <004b01c5aa15$c1b42150$f29c9951@Robin> <33abf27505082605593261f8a4@mail.gmail.com> <006601c5aa4b$48d49e50$f29c9951@Robin><1125083893.2938.71.camel@malatesta> <33abf2750508261307404912cf@mail.gmail.com> <1125103019.2938.100.camel@malatesta> <33abf27505082618543f773b87@mail.gmail.com> <1125193356.2938.129.camel@malatesta> <019501c5ad5a$cb453720$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126064363.25671.75.camel@malatesta> <00a201c5b396$b0d96270$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126106161.25671.85.camel@malatesta> <020801c5b3c5$535a4040$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <1126112783.25671.103.camel@malatesta> <02b301c5b3d5$746fb110$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <1126120049.25671.141.camel@malatesta> On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 13:56 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: > Here's what I responded to from you: > > On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 08:59 -0400, Donna Casinghino wrote: > > I agree with what you said--it limits your audience. But discounting > > spoken-word and focusing just on the reading of it, I'd put it even > > more strongly than you did: Working with any dialect severely > > alienates most of your audience. You're effectively thumbing your nose > > at everyone but a small minority of people. And it's my opinion that > > poetry should be universally accessible and serve to draw people > > together, not group us off into cliques. We can do that on our > > own. Why would a poet go out of his way to make his poetry > > inaccessible to us? > > Uche Ogbuji wrote: > >Wow. This seems hugely overstated to me. First of all, I've already > >agreed that dialect reduces audience, but I see nothing wrong with that. > >T.S. Eliot writes in dialect, so did Shakespeare. In fact, very few > >poets don't. Just to throw up at least one exception, I'll mention Carl > >Sandburg, who used very standard language. Jamaican Patois (surely > >you're not serious with that "Rasta" tag, are you?), Nuyorican patter, > >Nigerian Pidgin are no less legit than Oxonian, Hibernian, or Georgian > >gentleman. > >And surely the stereotyped "low" dialects should be no more inaccessible > >to a student of poetry than the "high" ones. In all cases, you have to > >deal with glosses. As Ezra Pound said, if you're not willing to deal > >with a little work with glosses, you're not serious about poetry, anyway > >(I'd go farther to say say you're not serious about language or even > >communication).< > > That seemed to me to be argument by intimidation aimed at Donna, Argument by intimidation? I'm sorry, but in my judgment, that's your area, not mine. If you're claiming that I'm not using appropriate debate tactics, you'll have to be specific and accurate in your complaint, and so far, you've not been both. > and it > seemed to me to say (and still seems to say) that you're using "high" and > "low" here differently than you used "promotion" later. I am indeed using them differently, as I mentioned before. But I am not saying that such terms can be used by me and not by others, which seems to be what you are claiming. I can't imagine a contortion of interpretation of the above that supports your claim. > Here you seem to be > using "high" and "low" not as terms of art or technical terms but as terms > of judgment. Perhaps I'm mistaken, I am using them as technical terms, of course, so I guess on that score, yes, you are mistaken. People make stereotyped judgments of language that can often not be linguistically substantiated, which is the subtext of this point (and one which I made later). I say that people often make false judgments about someone's age, but my saying so does not mean that I am rejecting the idea that a person can have a measurable age. > but the tone of the whole was lashing, > and didn't seem to me to be one of careful scholarly use of terms of art. So you didn't like my tone is what you've been trying to say all this while in this cryptic exchange? You might have just said so. My tone was one of annoyance: I do not like language snobbery. I still think my tone was justified. I don't see how the tone automatically contorts the meaning of what I say. You have to be again specific and accurate if you want to make such a claim, and again all you have succeeded in doing is confusing the issue. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From snakecharmer at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 15:30:53 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:30:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Do I agree with Collins? In-Reply-To: <8e097edd58a1ca7f31639f82d8cc09c4@earthlink.net> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C6B@URANIUM.ripon.college> <8e097edd58a1ca7f31639f82d8cc09c4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <33abf27505090712303d7bc9ac@mail.gmail.com> I think a big part of the problem is, people have substituted the word "accessible" for "easy". Somehow the word "accessible" has been deemed the derogatory of choice to describe anything unchallenging and simplistic, and so the categories are divided. Accessible shouldn't be a dirty word. Every good poem is accessible. Simply: How can it be deemed good if no one understands it? Therefore, people must be able to understand it, on some level, for it to be good. If something isn't understandable, isn't accessible, it's not going to keep selling and selling. All "accessible" means is, it's possible to enter this thing and understand it. To follow Hal's correlation to a handicap-accessible building: There's nothing at the threshhold to actively impede your way. It doesn't mean it's easy to enter--our "handicap-accessible" work building has a double entranceway, and a person entering needs to reach up to the door handle and pull not one, but two successive heavy glass doors toward them. Definitely not as easy as hitting the big blue button on campus, or moving in front of the Wal-Mart sensor, and having the doors open themselves. I see it as working the same way with poems. Some are easier to enter than others, but none of them should be completely impossible. It doesn't--and shouldn't--mean there's no work involved in achieving comprehension. I like Collins's explanation on how the poem needs something at the beginning to welcome you in, and then it can get more complex, because you're already involved in it and in a sense committed to it. If there's something in the beginning to draw you, then the poem can become absolutely labyrinthine and you'll go happliy along each twist and turn, because it's already got you. You're interested, you're hooked, you're addicted, it's like a drug--you NEED to know where this thing is taking you. But a poem needs that initial hook, or no one's ever gonna get to the meat of it. Maybe the ADA can take a look at the poetry genre and see where we've gone wrong. Maybe we need some guiding standards. :) On 9/7/05, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > On Sep 7, 2005, at 11:56 AM, Graham, David wrote: > > > > In my ideal critical universe, terms like "accessible" would not be > > value judgments, positive or negative, just descriptors. > > I agree but would go a step further, limiting their descriptive > use to buildings that folks in wheelchairs could enter without > the help of others. > > Hal Not responsible for typographical errors. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > email: halvard at earthlink.net > halvard at gmail.com > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Sep 7 15:54:24 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:54:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark References: <200509070706.j8776eNF105414@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net><002d01c5b398$c7141470$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <01a301c5b3a0$2c9ca5d0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <004f01c5b3e5$f2fc7080$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Check your dictionary, Marcus. "Aesthetic" and "taste" should be there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark > Where doesthe poet's "aesthetic taste" come from, though, Bob? It's not > created de novo in a vacuum. It evolves out of the cultures, micro and > macro, in which the poet lives. To say that the poet should write for his > or her own "aesthetic taste" is like saying "vote your conscience" -- the > terms are so broad as to be meaningless.. It can't be done, by US poets > living in the US, so pervasive and powerful are the cultures, micro and > macro, that the poet is necessarily immersed in simply to live from day to > day. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 6:41 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I "Quibble" with Hallmark & Anti-Hallmark > > >>I would agree that we're all trying to sell what we do in one way or >>another. for me, there are thus two questions involved: to whom should >>the poet hope to sell his poetry, the unsophisticaed many or the >>sophisticated few, and how much should the poet let those to whom he is >>aiming his poems dictate what he writes instead of aesthetics. >> >> My own ideal is writing to please one's own aesthetic taste ONLY, but >> with the hope that others will have a similar-enough taste to enjoy one's >> poems--and even pay for them in whatever way. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Sep 7 16:20:32 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:20:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu><001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu> <1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <005f01c5b3e9$99539230$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Mike Snider said: > If you have difficult things to say, you have to work especially hard, in > Collins's terms, to invite the reader in. Among the many reasons discussions like this are extremely difficult is the variety of ways to create poetry. For instance, as a poet, I'm (usually) concerned with making something I consider beautiful (by my aesthetic standards), not with saying anything--difficult or simple. I find that I tend to make more and more complex (and therefore "difficult") objects as I go along, not to befuddle my high school English teachers, but simply because nothing but major chords gets boring. Yikes, why are we into all this again? I hate to copy David Graham, but I have to say, why can't we agree on to each his own and be done with it? There will always be many audiences for any art, and some will be small, some large. All we can do is make the art that comes closest to drawing on all we are emotionally, sensually and mentally--and hope SOME audience will like it. I recently made a ten-part introduction to a sequence of long division poems. A not well-reproduced version is at http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00544.html Some of you may find it amusing to know that a main intent of this introduction is to make my long division sequence more accessible. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Sep 7 16:32:14 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:32:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu><001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu><1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <10163243.1126095828744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <006401c5b3eb$3b849bc0$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> MIKE: In the long run, this is exactly how poetry gets judged everywhere. Shelley and Dickinson and Shakespeare and Frost and Dante and Lorca and Plath and Stevens and Donne and Whitman and Kipling still sell. If and when their work stops selling to anyone but grad students required to buy it for a course, their work won't matter anymore. BOB: Dickinson, Stevens and Whitman didn't sell very well for most or all of their lives, though, so it's silly to look down on a contemporary's work for not selling to people of his time. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Sep 7 16:44:03 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:44:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu><001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu><1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><01db01c5b3b6$bbcc8610$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <006901c5b3c1$2a421100$f29c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <007201c5b3ec$e2307f10$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > From: "Marcus Bales" > >> Take Grumman, for example. He lives in a culture that is largely math-, >> poetry-, and grammar-phobic. So what does he do? He claims to write poems > by >> substituting math operands for English grammar. You have to know a good > deal >> about English grammar and mathematics to approach his poems at all ... I missed this. I tend to read Marcus very fast. I can't understand why Marcus thinks I or any poet necessarily is entirely other-directed (in my case, negatively). He won't believe that I just happen to like poetry and math, and saw a way to make what seemed interesting art-objects by combining the two--and adding non-representational visual images, another thing our culture doesn't seem to like that much. (I also have made poems in which grammar is important, but it's not that important in most of my long division poems, I don't think.) > Actually, with Bob, it helps *not* to know too much about mathematics, > otherwise you get puzzled as to how you can derive a fraction of zero. > > I had two takes at "1/2 0 equals c" (not Bob himself, but Bob quoting and > commenting on a rather nice image by Nico Vassilakis, on his blog) before > I > decided that even Einstein would have been baffled. > > Just goes to show. Something. Hmmm, I thought I explained how Nico got c, but maybe not. I'll check. > Maybe Bob knows something the rest of us don't. > > > > Robin I hate to be modest, but EVERYONE knows SOMEthing the rest of us don't. Most of my math poems require only a knowledge of old-fashioned on-paper long division. BUT one has to really know it, as I did not when I started doing long division poems. I mean, knowing long division is not just being able to do it on paper, you have to know what's going on. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Sep 7 17:05:06 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:05:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu><001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu><1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><01db01c5b3b6$bbcc8610$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><006901c5b3c1$2a421100$f29c9951@Robin> <02c401c5b3d6$a220f7d0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> Message-ID: <00b001c5b3ef$d2e4c1d0$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> From: "Marcus Bales" >>> Take Grumman, for example. He lives in a culture that is largely math-, >>> poetry-, and grammar-phobic. So what does he do? He claims to write >>> poems >> by >>> substituting math operands for English grammar. You have to know a good >> deal >>> about English grammar and mathematics to approach his poems at all ... > > Robin Hamilton wrote: > >> Actually, with Bob, it helps *not* to know too much about mathematics, >> otherwise you get puzzled as to how you can derive a fraction of zero. >> I had two takes at "1/2 0 equals c" (not Bob himself, but Bob quoting and >> commenting on a rather nice image by Nico Vassilakis, on his blog) before >> I >> decided that even Einstein would have been baffled. >> Just goes to show. Something. >> Maybe Bob knows something the rest of us don't. >> > > Too true. But the same can be said of his "taxonomy". The less you know > about science and the scientific method, the better it probably sounds. > His constant refrain is that he is busy and hurried and doesn't have time > to explain it, but that he knows he's right. > > Marcus This is not baiting, Marcus? Aside from that, you're wrong about my refrain. My refrain regarding my taxonomy is that it is at my website, Comprepoetica, all the explanation a fair-minded person should require (except for a few details, 100% clarity being impossible). I also do say, truthfully, that I have no time for the kind of "explanations" of it you bait me into trying to make. --Bob G. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Sep 7 17:14:11 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:14:11 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] Dino Campana Message-ID: <03ac01c5b3f1$180c32b0$eca83252@ANNY> Just sent to my blog, ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: anny.ballardini at tin.it Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:11 PM Subject: [NarcissusWorks] Dino Campana A poem I translated some time ago: Along the marine alleys in the ambiguous Evening the wind haunted among the stern lights Preludes from the tangle of ships: The marine palaces had white Arabesques in the languished shade And we went I and the ambiguous night: And I raised my eyes up to thousand And thousand and thousand benevolent eyes Of chimera in the skies? When, Melodiously >From the height the wind rose As white it feigned a vision of grace As from an untiring event Of clouds and of stars inside the night sky Inside the marine alley high it rises, ? Inside the alley that red high rises Marine the red wings of lights Arabesque the languished shade, ? That in the marine alley, high rises That white and light and querulous rose! ?Like in the red wings of lights White and red in the shade of the stern light That white and light and tremulous rose??- Now already in the red of the stern light Was already the shade wearingly White? White when in the red of the light White distant wearingly The surprised echo laughed an unreal Laughter: and that echo wearingly And white and light and astonished rose? Already all around The ambiguous night gleamed: Beat the stern lights The throb in the shade. Distant noise slid Into solemn silences Asking: if from the sea Laughter did not rise? Asking if tirelessly The evening Heard it: to the event Of clouds there high Inside the starry sky Dino Campana . -- Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 9/07/2005 11:07:00 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 7 17:43:00 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:43:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu><001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu><1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><01db01c5b3b6$bbcc8610$6401a8c0@Marcusnb><006901c5b3c1$2a421100$f29c9951@Robin><02c401c5b3d6$a220f7d0$6401a8c0@Marcusnb> <00b001c5b3ef$d2e4c1d0$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004001c5b3f5$3ffd9530$e07ba8c0@Marcusnb> Bob Grumman wrote: > ... Comprepoetica, all the explanation a fair-minded person should require > (except for a few details, 100% clarity being impossible). I also do say, > truthfully, that I have no time for the kind of "explanations" of it you > bait me into trying to make. I ask you questions you have no answer to, and you think it's baiting. I've explained many times why your "taxonomy" is no such thing; why your explanations are confused and your premises absurd. Suffice it to say, again, that you have the wrong end of the stick. You haven't got a "taxonomy" -- you have a set of categories with no scientific basis or backing. As a set of categories you may be able to make a reasonable case for the way you group the categories -- but you cannot make a reasonable case that they are a "taxonomy", because they are no such thing. Marcus From tad at opus40.org Wed Sep 7 20:28:01 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:28:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu><00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu><001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu><1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><10163243.1126095828744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <1126107473.431f0951af757@webmail.sfsu.edu> Message-ID: <001f01c5b40c$2e4eca90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> There's that magnificent set piece in Proust where Swann hears the little phrase in Vinteuil's sonata, and goes back again and again to hear it, gradually finding new beauties in the sonata that he had not heard at first. It's the accessibility of the little phrase that keeps drawing him back, but he comes to realize that what we treasure at first in a work of art, and what we ultimately treasure, are two different things. If accessibility had been all Vinteuil's sonata had to offer, Swann would have tired of it quickly, Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark Sorry to keep going on this, but the problem isn't long-running successful work that is valued, appreciated, and sells over time. Did Emily D. sell in her lifetime? She was, by that marker, mostly a "failure." What seems puzzling to me in the discussion is that we're perhaps not talking about what is enduring about poetry. Is Vallejo particularly accessible? Is Pound or Stevens? Is Lorca always? Do readers of Shakespeare breeze through the first time with all the richness understood? And don't even transparent poets now and then experiment with opacity and consider other means to explore and deepen or otherwise alter their approach to the task of writing? Should they furrow their brows and watch market trends before they do? It's important to be careful in accounting and stick to transparent measures as some big companies recently brought down by fraud have learned, but being "startling" or "original" in poetry is hardly comparable to "cooking the books." They are virtues, I think, and one that most enduring writers display. When I go to art museums I see work that is immediately accessible to me NOW that caused a stir when it first appeared because of its strangeness, darkness, abstractness, distortion of line, etc. There were riots when the post- Impressionists first exhibited. Now zillions of people line up for their shows and their paintings are mass-produced on aprons, calendars, and key-chains. Hurray for commerce. Given time and something beyond one's first take on things, other rich and deep qualities often do shine through. No one puzzles over Cezanne today but they really fussed over his perspective and habit of outlining things then. So maybe instant success isn't the marker at all. Maybe there's more. That's what I think I'm saying. Instant success: making a baloney sandwich takes a second. You need bread, mustard, and baloney. Anyone can instantly understand the "recipe." Anyone can do it given bread, mustard, and baloney (Or mayonnaise for a select few). A five year-old can do it. But there's other good and nourishing and strange and robust food that takes more time to cook and even enjoy tasting. MC All of them sell well. So does Ferlinghetti, who is very accessible. Making Quoting Mike Snider : > Sorry for rplying to my own post -- but I forgot to include the URL for > the > source of the Dawkins quote: > http://www.americanscientist.org/template/InterviewTypeDetail/assetid/41240 > > And it's got poetry content, as well! > > On Wednesday, September 07, 2005, at 08:10AM, Mike Snider > > wrote: > > > > >On Wednesday, September 07, 2005, at 00:23AM, wrote: > > > >>Isn't another name for poetry that sells advertising jingles? WIth it, > >>one > > >>could sell cars, trucks, boats, Hummers, Jello, toilet paper, any number > >>of > > >>things. Is the way we now judge poetry in America that which sells? > > > > > >In the long run, this is exactly how poetry gets judged everywhere. > >Shelley > and Dickinson and Shakespeare and Frost and Dante and Lorca and Plath and > Stevens and Donne and Whitman and Kipling still sell. If and when their > work > stops selling to anyone but grad students required to buy it for a course, > their work won't matter anymore. > > > > > > If we > >>want to be salespeople, we might try bibles or ice cream or cigarettes > >>or > sex > >>toys or pistols or self-help books on how to housebreak dogs or tell > >>your > >>husband is cheating, all WAY more popular than poetry. And if everyone > >>in > > >>America were to buy a poem, would that improve poetry? MC > >> > > > >Nope -- but it would improve (American) poetry if every poet in America > would every day consider this statement from the biologist Richard > Dawkins: > > > >"I think, let the science speak, because it's inherently fascinating. > >That's > one piece of advice. The second, separate piece is try to put > yourself-it's > so obvious, I mean it doesn't need saying-in the position of the reader. > Not > just one reader, but, successively, lots of different readers. Imagine > this > was being read by Uncle Joe, imagine this was being read by your doctor, > imagine this was being read by your lawyer, imagine this was being read by > your old French teacher. So every time you read through your stuff, > imagine > it through the eyes of some particular individual, and it will have an > automatic sort of Darwinian selection effect on your words, and you'll > recognize-"Oh, he wouldn't have understood that, she wouldn't have got > that > point," and so you change it. And by the time a chapter has been through > this > succession of filters, it comes out clearer, because you've anticipated > all > the difficulties that people will have. " > > > >If you have difficult things to say, you have to work especially hard, in > Collins's terms, to invite the reader in. > > > > > >----- > >Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > >http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 7 20:41:53 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:41:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Do I agree with Collins? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/7/2005 11:56:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: Do I agree with Billy Collins on the glut of unreadable poetry? Well, yes and no. I guess I have to wonder who Collins is trying to convince. Is his bringing this up, being a poetry bestseller by all accounts, as a way of convincing himself that his poetry really matters, will matter in the long run? What really does he have to gain? Can he skim off a few more book sales by converting a wavering grad student from lapsing into the dark side of obscurantist poetics? Is this about getting more prized instead of being accepted for what he is: a witty poet with eye for cultural concerns? Does he really believe the profusion of unreadable poetry (that supposedly no one is buying and reading) is somehow harming the reputation of Billy Collins & his ilk, but, even more than that, thwarting the readerly intentions and interests of great latent poetry buying public ready and willing with their MC/VISA in had, but somehow numbed to the virtues of his accessible art by the books they never read? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Sep 7 20:51:20 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 19:51:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sorrow and useful writing In-Reply-To: <648208b605090711024c3db940@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050903152149.027c6ec0@mail.ilstu.edu> <648208b605090711024c3db940@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050907194442.029cbc90@mail.ilstu.edu> Jim, thanks. re their arguing: What's fascinating is that they actually think they care what they're arguing about. They don't care in the least. It's the excitement of arguing that's driving them. In re what will last: nothing. In re suffering: One of the most comforting things I've ever read on suffering is the section on the First Noble Truth in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. I've got it on my blog somewhere. It begins, "And what, friends, is sorrow?" And goes on from there through grief and bodily pain and ultimately to death. It's uplifting like nothing else. My best to your father. I don't know where he is but I'll send out good vibes into the air, as best I'm able. The last time I saw my paternal grandfather, Oskar Syverson, he was 97 and into Alzheimers pretty heavy. He grew very lucid as he was saying goodbye to me in the foyer of the nursing home. I was 23. And he said, "Well, I suppose it won't be long before you're in a nursing home too." All I could say was -- and I meant it -- "I think you're right, grandpa. That's about right." Gabe At 01:02 PM 9/7/2005, James Cervantes wrote: >Gabe: With you 100% and this focus on "personal troubles" and "public >issues." With me it was the deaths of three members of my immediate >family in the course of 13 months, culminating in the death of my >father this year at the exact time of the tsunami that took so many >lives. For a while, as my father was dying, I was holed up in a motel >a couple of miles from him, kept from visiting as often as I'd liked >by a possibly contagious respiratory infection, and tuned to CNN and >its 24/7 coverage of the tsunami. My father's futile fight for life >became inextricably tied to the larger suffering. Now it's the >hurricane and it all comes back. Which is why I become impatient with >discussions of what poetry will last and which won't, who has an easy >time garnering an audience and who doesn't. Thus, your refocusing >strikes a major chord. > >- Jim From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 7 20:51:13 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:51:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] When people say that poetry is hard to read Message-ID: <87.2f7255f9.3050e501@aol.com> Ask him or her to tell you about the poem. It's like a kid smoking a first cigarette and getting light-headed. They have no idea of the bad trips ahead of them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 7 21:09:24 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:09:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] New and On View: Mudlark Poster No. 58 (2005) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:16:31 -0400 From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark New and On View: Mudlark Poster No. 58 (2005) Jenna Cardinale | Ten Sonnets It is Better to Marry than to Burn What Ceremony of Words Can Patch the Havoc Stalked | Weightless | The Magician's Girl Cast the Stillborn in a Sheer Plaster Wake | Character Problem | Settling on Leaving Her Kept-Woman Years May Have Been Her Best Jenna Cardinale's sonnets appear in recent or forthcoming issues of 42opus, Coconut, Court Green, and Dusie. Her work in the sonnet form has been supported by a BRIO grant from the Bronx Council on the Arts. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Wed Sep 7 21:13:20 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:13:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark In-Reply-To: <001f01c5b40c$2e4eca90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B52@mail.emerson.edu> <00de01c5b33a$52106b50$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1126049620.431e27547725c@webmail.sfsu.edu> <001401c5b341$d5485260$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1126066969.431e6b19eec5c@webmail.sfsu.edu> <1593806.1126094836827.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <10163243.1126095828744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <1126107473.431f0951af757@webmail.sfsu.edu> <001f01c5b40c$2e4eca90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <569CF35E-429C-4D37-A558-79ACA562553D@mac.com> Yes to both of you, and to David Graham's wonderful post -- and that's why Collins's term 'hospitable" is so much better than "accessible." Great art is seldom (if ever) easy, but it offers a way in. On Sep 7, 2005, at 8:28 PM, The Old Mole wrote: > There's that magnificent set piece in Proust where Swann hears the > little phrase in Vinteuil's sonata, and goes back again and again > to hear it, gradually finding new beauties in the sonata that he > had not heard at first. It's the accessibility of the little phrase > that keeps drawing him back, but he comes to realize that what we > treasure at first in a work of art, and what we ultimately > treasure, are two different things. If accessibility had been all > Vinteuil's sonata had to offer, Swann would have tired of it quickly, > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:37 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] i agree with Hallmark > > > Sorry to keep going on this, but the problem isn't long-running > successful work > that is valued, appreciated, and sells over time. Did Emily D. > sell in her > lifetime? She was, by that marker, mostly a "failure." What seems > puzzling to > me in the discussion is that we're perhaps not talking about what > is enduring > about poetry. Is Vallejo particularly accessible? Is Pound or > Stevens? Is > Lorca always? Do readers of Shakespeare breeze through the first > time with all > the richness understood? > > And don't even transparent poets now and then experiment with > opacity and > consider other means to explore and deepen or otherwise alter their > approach to > the task of writing? Should they furrow their brows and watch > market trends > before they do? It's important to be careful in accounting and > stick to > transparent measures as some big companies recently brought down by > fraud have > learned, but being "startling" or "original" in poetry is hardly > comparable > to "cooking the books." They are virtues, I think, and one that > most enduring > writers display. > > When I go to art museums I see work that is immediately accessible > to me NOW > that caused a stir when it first appeared because of its > strangeness, darkness, > abstractness, distortion of line, etc. There were riots when the > post- > Impressionists first exhibited. Now zillions of people line up for > their shows > and their paintings are mass-produced on aprons, calendars, and key- > chains. > Hurray for commerce. > > Given time and something beyond one's first take on things, other > rich and deep > qualities often do shine through. No one puzzles over Cezanne > today but they > really fussed over his perspective and habit of outlining things > then. So maybe > instant success isn't the marker at all. Maybe there's more. > That's what I > think I'm saying. > > Instant success: making a baloney sandwich takes a second. You > need bread, > mustard, and baloney. Anyone can instantly understand the > "recipe." Anyone can > do it given bread, mustard, and baloney (Or mayonnaise for a select > few). A > five year-old can do it. But > there's other good and nourishing and strange and robust food that > takes more > time to cook and even enjoy tasting. > > MC > > All of them sell well. So does Ferlinghetti, who is very > accessible. Making > Quoting Mike Snider : > > >> Sorry for rplying to my own post -- but I forgot to include the >> URL for the >> source of the Dawkins quote: >> http://www.americanscientist.org/template/InterviewTypeDetail/ >> assetid/41240 >> >> And it's got poetry content, as well! >> >> On Wednesday, September 07, 2005, at 08:10AM, Mike Snider >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >On Wednesday, September 07, 2005, at 00:23AM, >> wrote: >> > >> >>Isn't another name for poetry that sells advertising jingles? >> WIth it, >>one >> >> >>could sell cars, trucks, boats, Hummers, Jello, toilet paper, >> any number >>of >> >> >>things. Is the way we now judge poetry in America that which >> sells? >> > >> > >> >In the long run, this is exactly how poetry gets judged >> everywhere. >Shelley >> and Dickinson and Shakespeare and Frost and Dante and Lorca and >> Plath and >> Stevens and Donne and Whitman and Kipling still sell. If and when >> their work >> stops selling to anyone but grad students required to buy it for a >> course, >> their work won't matter anymore. >> > >> > >> > If we >> >>want to be salespeople, we might try bibles or ice cream or >> cigarettes >>or >> sex >> >>toys or pistols or self-help books on how to housebreak dogs or >> tell >>your >> >>husband is cheating, all WAY more popular than poetry. And if >> everyone >>in >> >> >>America were to buy a poem, would that improve poetry? MC >> >> >> > >> >Nope -- but it would improve (American) poetry if every poet in >> America >> would every day consider this statement from the biologist Richard >> Dawkins: >> > >> >"I think, let the science speak, because it's inherently >> fascinating. >That's >> one piece of advice. The second, separate piece is try to put >> yourself-it's >> so obvious, I mean it doesn't need saying-in the position of the >> reader. Not >> just one reader, but, successively, lots of different readers. >> Imagine this >> was being read by Uncle Joe, imagine this was being read by your >> doctor, >> imagine this was being read by your lawyer, imagine this was being >> read by >> your old French teacher. So every time you read through your >> stuff, imagine >> it through the eyes of some particular individual, and it will >> have an >> automatic sort of Darwinian selection effect on your words, and >> you'll >> recognize-"Oh, he wouldn't have understood that, she wouldn't have >> got that >> point," and so you change it. And by the time a chapter has been >> through this >> succession of filters, it comes out clearer, because you've >> anticipated all >> the difficulties that people will have. " >> > >> >If you have difficult things to say, you have to work especially >> hard, in >> Collins's terms, to invite the reader in. >> > >> > >> >----- >> >Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. >> >http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >New-Poetry mailing list >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> >> >> ----- >> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. >> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad at opus40.org Wed Sep 7 21:19:14 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:19:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Do I agree with Collins? References: Message-ID: <00bc01c5b413$55b809f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Jim -- really good points. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Do I agree with Collins? In a message dated 9/7/2005 11:56:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: Do I agree with Billy Collins on the glut of unreadable poetry? Well, yes and no. I guess I have to wonder who Collins is trying to convince. Is his bringing this up, being a poetry bestseller by all accounts, as a way of convincing himself that his poetry really matters, will matter in the long run? What really does he have to gain? Can he skim off a few more book sales by converting a wavering grad student from lapsing into the dark side of obscurantist poetics? Is this about getting more prized instead of being accepted for what he is: a witty poet with eye for cultural concerns? Does he really believe the profusion of unreadable poetry (that supposedly no one is buying and reading) is somehow harming the reputation of Billy Collins & his ilk, but, even more than that, thwarting the readerly intentions and interests of great latent poetry buying public ready and willing with their MC/VISA in had, but somehow numbed to the virtues of his accessible art by the books they never read? Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Sep 7 21:48:54 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:48:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Sonny Rollins Message-ID: 75 years old today. THE UNKNOWABLE Practicing his horn on the Williamsburg Bridge hour after hour, "woodshedding" the musicians called it, but his woodshed was the world. The enormous tone he borrowed from Hawkins that could fill a club to overflowing blown into tatters by the sea winds teaching him humility, which he carries with him at all times, not as an amulet against the powers of animals and men that mean harm or the lure of the marketplace. No, a quality of the gaze downward on the streets of Brooklyn or Manhattan. Hold his hand and you'll see it, hold his eyes in yours and you'll hear the wind singing through the cables of the bridge that was home, singing through his breath?no rarer than yours, though his became the music of the world thirty years ago. Today I ask myself how he knew the time had come to inhabit the voice of the air and how later he decided the time had come for silence, for the world to speak any way it could? He wouldn't answer because he'd find the question pompous. He plays for money. The years pass, and like the rest of us he ages, his hair and beard whiten, the great shoulders narrow. He is merely a man? after all?a man who stared for years into the breathy, unknowable voice of silence and captured the music. --Philip Levine. The Mercy, 1999. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul at mallasch.com Wed Sep 7 22:22:57 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:22:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] When people say that poetry is hard to read In-Reply-To: <87.2f7255f9.3050e501@aol.com> References: <87.2f7255f9.3050e501@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050907212244.F35640@kpaul.spinweb.net> or how damn addictive they are. and hard to quit. -kpaul mallasch.com On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Ask him or her to tell you about the poem. > It's like a kid smoking a first cigarette > and getting light-headed. They have no > idea of the bad trips ahead of them. > From kazmandu at aol.com Wed Sep 7 23:10:02 2005 From: kazmandu at aol.com (kazmandu at aol.com) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 23:10:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grummans Math ... from Kaz Maslanka In-Reply-To: <200509071924.j87JOaM3024804@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200509071924.j87JOaM3024804@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <8C78239F0383D5A-1668-5E11@MBLK-M16.sysops.aol.com> > From: "Marcus Bales" >> Take Grumman, for example. He lives in a culture that is largely math-, >> poetry-, and grammar-phobic. So what does he do? He claims to write poems > by >> substituting math operands for English grammar. You have to know a good > deal >> about English grammar and mathematics to approach his poems at all ... Marcus, I really don't understand how you can say that one needs to know much about math to understand Bob's Mathemaku ... for Pete?s sake the math is on the level of 7 and 8 year old children. Robin Hamilton wrote: > Actually, with Bob, it helps *not* to know too much about mathematics, > otherwise you get puzzled as to how you can derive a fraction of zero. > I had two takes at "1/2 0 equals c" (not Bob himself, but Bob quoting and > commenting on a rather nice image by Nico Vassilakis, on his blog) before > I > decided that even Einstein would have been baffled. > Just goes to show. Something. > Maybe Bob knows something the rest of us don't. > Robin, If you take a circle and cut it into 2 pieces you get ( ) or a "c" so to speak and a backward "c" Too true. But the same can be said of his "taxonomy". The less you know about science and the scientific method, the better it probably sounds. His constant refrain is that he is busy and hurried and doesn't have time to explain it, but that he knows he's right. Marcus Cheers, Kaz Maslanka -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 8 01:11:11 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 06:11:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Bob Grummans Math ... from Kaz Maslanka References: <200509071924.j87JOaM3024804@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <8C78239F0383D5A-1668-5E11@MBLK-M16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <015101c5b433$bb1fc380$9e178a56@Robin> << Robin, If you take a circle and cut it into 2 pieces you get ( ) or a "c" so to speak and a backward "c" >> .... but as Count Alfred Korzysky said, "The map is not the country." (Or was it "territory"?) The Red Rover. << Too true. But the same can be said of his "taxonomy". The less you know about science and the scientific method, the better it probably sounds. His constant refrain is that he is busy and hurried and doesn't have time to explain it, but that he knows he's right. >> From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 8 03:38:08 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 08:38:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] My father's house hath many (warring) mansions References: <200509071924.j87JOaM3024804@wiz.cath.vt.edu><8C78239F0383D5A-1668-5E11@MBLK-M16.sysops.aol.com> <015101c5b433$bb1fc380$9e178a56@Robin> Message-ID: <008a01c5b448$42ab6160$3fe8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Monday on the radio I caught a discussion of the novel 'Riddley Walker' by the English-domiciled American writer Russell Hoban. My eyes grew wide as I heard the presenter, a professional journalist, reviewer, broadcaster of long-standing, repeatedly complain that the distinctive 'dialect' in which the novel is written - a kind of futuristic post-holocaust Kentish - was an obstacle to the reader and wouldn't it be better is the novel were 'translated' into 'standard' English. My eyes's widenings were much to do with the memory that a) I had no problem with the language of the book and that b) that the language was the edge, the special quality that made the book memorable. Last night at 'Bambu', a club here that hosts poetry gigs, in low lights and candle-flicker, smoky air though these days mainly supplied by me, one the delights was the set by a single mother called Michelle Hubbard who comes from the St Annes area of Nottingham (St Annes is unfortunately known for the number of murders that happen there, its a mainly West Indian area). Michelle's poems were very simple, accesible, unliterary but, and these is the key point, authentic. A former chief inspector of schools was on the Word4Word programme yesterday - he had a point that public language was beeing driven down by the pressure of commercial interests, he claimed that is you compared say 'The Times' or 'The Guardian' of 25 years ago with now you can see a 'dumbing down' in action. The problem with certain professional 'populist' poets in the UK like Carol Anne Duffy or Simon Armitage is that their very approach, and influence, precludes other tacks on poetry, their rhetorics and references endorse, implicity, a consumerist and capitalist dominated society and, unlike poets like Michelle Hubbard, who write authentically from their own language from the bottom-up, these 'populists' propogate a style from the top-down. Which is not to say there are not elements in the (largely self-declared) avant-garde in the UK that are exclusive, self-seeking and as gang-based as the kids with guns and trainers on the streets of St Annes - there are. But that's not the whole story. Best Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Sep 8 06:17:26 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 06:17:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Bob Grummans Math ... from Kaz Maslanka References: <200509071924.j87JOaM3024804@wiz.cath.vt.edu><8C78239F0383D5A-1668-5E11@MBLK-M16.sysops.aol.com> <015101c5b433$bb1fc380$9e178a56@Robin> Message-ID: <005701c5b45e$830add60$92b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > .... but as Count Alfred Korzysky said, "The map is not the country." > > (Or was it "territory"?) > > The Red Rover. Actually, it depends on who's reading the map. --Bob From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Thu Sep 8 14:17:15 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:17:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent to Gabe on sorrow Message-ID: I thought Gabe Gudding;s post on sorrow was very moving. I second Jim Cervantes's thank you. I'm not even sure, Gabe, if you've seen this poem I wrote about sorrow, at the latest issue of Typo Magazine. I know I'd told you about it before it was done, but then I think I forgot to tell you it was finished! It's inspired (as you can see from the title and epigraph) by your great poem, Dear Eagles. None of which is to say that my sorrow is the same as yours. But here is the poem I wrote thanks to you. http://www.typomag.com/issue06/johnson.html Kent From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Thu Sep 8 15:14:12 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 14:14:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] something really eerie from Laura Mullen Message-ID: I had been corresponding a bit with Laura Mullen in July and August. She'd been teaching Doubled Flowering at Naropa over the summer, so we'd been talking a bit about that and of my coming to read at LSU and New Orleans this October, an idea I then had to cancel because of an unusual chance to travel to Chile around the same time. So we'd been trying to come up with an alternate time for my visit there... At one point, I'd asked her, after reading something about it in Harper's, if it was true that the French Quarter was about to be consumed by termites. I had completely forgotten that she had said the below, in this email from August 10, a little more than two weeks before Katrina: "So you're on my wish list & Dave's (in New Orleans) now too, so it WILL happen, even if we can't be sure of when. (New Orleans is more likely to be under the ocean as the result of a hurricane than eaten by termites.)..." Kent From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Sep 8 15:19:43 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:19:43 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] I, I, I - Hayden Carruth Message-ID: <004c01c5b4aa$44781e90$b1d73152@ANNY> I, I, I Hayden Carruth First, the self. Then, the observing self. The self that acts and the self that watches. This The starting point, the place where the mind begins, Whether the mind of an individual or The mind of a species. When I was a boy I struggled to understand. For if I know The self that watches, another watching self Must see the watcher, then another watching that, Another and another, and where does it end? So my mother sent me to the barber shop, My first time, to get my hair "cut for a part" (Instead of the dutch boy she'd always given me), As I was instructed to tell the barber. She Dispatched me on my own because the shop, Which had a pool table in the back, in that Small town was the men's club, and no woman Would venture there. Was it my first excursion On my own into the world? Perhaps. I sat In the big chair. The wall behind me held A huge mirror, and so did the one in front, So that I saw my own small strange blond head With its oriental eyes and turned up nose repeated In ever diminishing images, one behind Another behind another, and I tried To peer farther and farther into the succession To see the farthest one, diminutive in The shadows. I could not. I sat rigid And said no word. The fat barber snipped My hair and blew his brusque breath on my nape And finally whisked away his sheet, and I climbed down. I ran from that cave of mirrors A mile and a half to home, to my own room Up under the eaves, which was another cave. It had no mirrors. I no longer needed mirrors. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 8 15:22:12 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] something really eerie from Laura Mullen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050908192212.82721.qmail@web40421.mail.yahoo.com> strange. I crossed into Switzerland just 3 weeks before 9:11 and this time, crossed into Alpine Austria (ie Carinthia) just 10 days before the hurricane, encountering bad weather conditions, 4 days of constant rain. --- Kent Johnson wrote: > I had been corresponding a bit with Laura Mullen in > July and August. > She'd been teaching Doubled Flowering at Naropa over > the summer, so we'd > been talking a bit about that and of my coming to > read at LSU and New > Orleans this October, an idea I then had to cancel > because of an unusual > chance to travel to Chile around the same time. So > we'd been trying to > come up with an alternate time for my visit there... > At one point, I'd > asked her, after reading something about it in > Harper's, if it was true > that the French Quarter was about to be consumed by > termites. I had > completely forgotten that she had said the below, in > this email from > August 10, a little more than two weeks before > Katrina: > > "So you're on my wish list & Dave's (in New Orleans) > now too, so it > WILL happen, even if we can't be sure of when. (New > Orleans is more > likely to be under the ocean as the result of a > hurricane than eaten by > termites.)..." > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Sep 8 15:22:53 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:22:53 +0200 Subject: Fw: [New-Poetry] I, I, I - Hayden Carruth Message-ID: <006b01c5b4aa$b5b0a5a0$b1d73152@ANNY> Sorry for all that blinking stuff, I had canceled it out but it anyhow stuck inside, ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 9:19 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.lott at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 16:10:09 2005 From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:10:09 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Do I agree with Collins? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05090813101b3fbe93@mail.gmail.com> On 9/7/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > I guess I have to wonder who Collins is trying to convince. Is > his bringing this up, being a poetry bestseller by all accounts, as > a way of convincing himself that his poetry really matters, will matter > in the long run? What really does he have to gain? Isn't it possible that Collins actually cares about the kind of poetry he writes? Or does the fact that he has sold a lot of books automatically make his statements about the kind of poetry he obviously consumes and produces of lesser worth than any of us doing the same thing? It's also just possible that Billy Collins suspects that poetry that isn't rewarding turns readers off of poetry as a whole, accessible or not, doing *no one* any favors, regardless of ideology. Maybe what he's saying is actually about the poetry, not about Billy Collins. Though if it *isn't* that just reflects the same tendency people here have to veer off into the ad hominem when they ostensibly talk about his poems... c -- Chris Lott From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Sep 8 16:30:48 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:30:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Do I agree with Collins? References: <9b1b9dab05090813101b3fbe93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01a801c5b4b4$33051050$92b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I think Collins is just like me and many other poets in that he does the kind of poetry it's in him to do, and naturally feels an urge to defend it when it is disparaged, and does so. --Bob G. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 8 16:33:48 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:33:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent to Gabe on sorrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050908152849.02ad8e58@mail.ilstu.edu> Kent, I have been meaning to tell you this for some time: in your epigraph, you misquote my poem. That said, I appreciate your gesture deeply. I find that I get REALLY ANNOYED when i'm misquoted -- especially if my language is normalized in the misquotation, which is the case with your misquotation of the poem. A copy editor at Scribner "fixed" language in my long insult poem, "A Defense of Poetry," which still bugs me when I open up the anthology. The line you misquote should read, "your country's over. And though you're here still," NOT the more normative "... still here," -Gabe At 01:17 PM 9/8/2005, Kent Johnson wrote: >I thought Gabe Gudding;s post on sorrow was very moving. I second Jim >Cervantes's thank you. > >I'm not even sure, Gabe, if you've seen this poem I wrote about sorrow, >at the latest issue of Typo Magazine. I know I'd told you about it >before it was done, but then I think I forgot to tell you it was >finished! It's inspired (as you can see from the title and epigraph) by >your great poem, Dear Eagles. None of which is to say that my sorrow is >the same as yours. But here is the poem I wrote thanks to you. > >http://www.typomag.com/issue06/johnson.html > >Kent >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 8 17:21:27 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:21:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent to Gabe on sorrow In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050908152849.02ad8e58@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050908152849.02ad8e58@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050908161934.02aa6ad0@mail.ilstu.edu> So I finally looked past the typo (in TYPO magazine) and read -- again, for I had read it before -- your poem, Kent. It's lovely. But drinking beer at breakfast = not eaglic! Nazim Hikment rules. And so does yr poem. Gabe At 03:33 PM 9/8/2005, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >Kent, I have been meaning to tell you this for some time: in your >epigraph, you misquote my poem. > >That said, I appreciate your gesture deeply. I find that I get REALLY >ANNOYED when i'm misquoted -- especially if my language is normalized in >the misquotation, which is the case with your misquotation of the poem. > >A copy editor at Scribner "fixed" language in my long insult poem, "A >Defense of Poetry," which still bugs me when I open up the anthology. > >The line you misquote should read, "your country's over. And though you're >here still," NOT the more normative "... still here," > >-Gabe > > >At 01:17 PM 9/8/2005, Kent Johnson wrote: >>I thought Gabe Gudding;s post on sorrow was very moving. I second Jim >>Cervantes's thank you. >> >>I'm not even sure, Gabe, if you've seen this poem I wrote about sorrow, >>at the latest issue of Typo Magazine. I know I'd told you about it >>before it was done, but then I think I forgot to tell you it was >>finished! It's inspired (as you can see from the title and epigraph) by >>your great poem, Dear Eagles. None of which is to say that my sorrow is >>the same as yours. But here is the poem I wrote thanks to you. >> >>http://www.typomag.com/issue06/johnson.html >> >>Kent >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 8 17:21:32 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:21:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Walt Whitman Celebration at CCSU (Thursday 10/22, Friday 10/23) Message-ID: <83.2f7e2876.3052055c@aol.com> FYI, those members living near CT.... In a message dated 9/8/2005 6:37:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, shankarr at ccsu.edu writes: Featuring Billy Collins, Martin Espada, Karen Karbiener, Jerome Loving, David S. Reynolds and others: http://www.ccsu.edu/Whitman/default.htm *************** Ravi Shankar Poet-in-Residence Assistant Professor CCSU - English Dept. 860-832-2766 shankarr at ccsu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Walt Whitman Celebration at CCSU (Thursday 10/22, Friday 10/23) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 06:36:55 -0400 Size: 2797 URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Sep 8 17:27:58 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 23:27:58 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] When people say that poetry is hard to read References: <87.2f7255f9.3050e501@aol.com> Message-ID: <011001c5b4bc$2efb4e40$b1d73152@ANNY> I posted this message by James Finnegan to my blog without previous permission, thank you, Anny http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/2005/09/from-james-finnegan.html ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:51 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] When people say that poetry is hard to read Ask him or her to tell you about the poem. It's like a kid smoking a first cigarette and getting light-headed. They have no idea of the bad trips ahead of them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 8 18:23:47 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 18:23:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Do I agree with Collins? Message-ID: <200.99dc54c.305213f3@aol.com> Chris, I hope what I said of Collins wasn't ad hominem. Wasn't meant that way. It does strike me odd that he feels the need to defend accessible poetry. It speaks for itself, quite clearly; isn't that the point? And a casual browse along the stacks of a local Borders should tell one that there is no publishing/editorial conspiracy keeping it from the eyes of eager readers. It's not being squeezed off the shelves by the dark forces of obscure and impenetrable poetry. I like many of Collins' poems. He's not ever going to be one of my poetry gods. His poetry makes me laugh (at least mentally, and that's no small thing) and it sometimes touches a unconsidered note or opens for consideration some aspect of life/experience. But his work has never moved me deeply. The language is felicitous but not more or less than that. I'll give him is due, as far I can go. Lastly, what exactly is accessibility? I've read some very 'accessible poems' (their prose meanings are not difficult to parse) that are still hard to understand: nuanced, full of allusions, associations, undertones, colorations and textures of language, word choices, tone shifts, diction and pace changes, etc., that would take a lifetime to tease out, if not an eternity. Do you think Robert Frost, for example, is easy to read and to understand? I do not. Finnegan In a message dated 9/8/2005 4:10:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chris.lott at gmail.com writes: > I guess I have to wonder who Collins is trying to convince. Is > his bringing this up, being a poetry bestseller by all accounts, as > a way of convincing himself that his poetry really matters, will matter > in the long run? What really does he have to gain? Isn't it possible that Collins actually cares about the kind of poetry he writes? Or does the fact that he has sold a lot of books automatically make his statements about the kind of poetry he obviously consumes and produces of lesser worth than any of us doing the same thing? It's also just possible that Billy Collins suspects that poetry that isn't rewarding turns readers off of poetry as a whole, accessible or not, doing *no one* any favors, regardless of ideology. Maybe what he's saying is actually about the poetry, not about Billy Collins. Though if it *isn't* that just reflects the same tendency people here have to veer off into the ad hominem when they ostensibly talk about his poems... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 8 20:37:38 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:37:38 EDT Subject: Fw: [New-Poetry] I, I, I - Hayden Carruth Message-ID: <13e.1b1c1b50.30523352@aol.com> In a message dated 9/8/2005 3:23:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: Sorry for all that blinking stuff, I had canceled it out but it anyhow stuck inside Anny, thanks for sending your photo to the list. Now I'll know you if I ever pass you on the or the beach. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kazmandu at aol.com Thu Sep 8 21:11:06 2005 From: kazmandu at aol.com (kazmandu at aol.com) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:11:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re Bob Grummans math ... from Kaz Maslanka In-Reply-To: <200509081600.j88G05M3002528@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200509081600.j88G05M3002528@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <8C782F27D43055A-588-1636@MBLK-M14.sysops.aol.com> Marcus Bales wrote: >> Take Grumman, for example. He lives in a culture that is largely math-, >> poetry-, and grammar-phobic. So what does he do? He claims to write poems >> by substituting math operands for English grammar. You have to know a good >> deal about English grammar and mathematics to approach his poems at all ...<< Kaz Maslanka wrote: > I really don't understand how you can say that one needs to know much about math to > understand Bob's Mathemaku ... for Pete's sake the math is on the level of 7 and 8 > year old children. First, it's poetry -- most people don't read poetry in the first place; our culture is poetry-phobic. Most people don't want to have anything to do with anything that calls itself "poetry". To that add that most of the people who do read poetry have so little background in math and science that the level of 7 and 8 year old children is just barely within their grasp - Marcus, Are you saying that the group of people on this list find division and multiplication just barely within their grasp? but, more importantly, they react to the math symbols themselves as most people react to anything calling itself "poetry": with a sort of phobic reaction. To that add that the math operands purport to take the place of ordinary English grammar, of which most people know very little except for "what sounds right" to them, with the result that they don't see the connection between the two systems because they're phobic about the math symbols and they can't identify the grammar principles the math operands purport to replace. Maybe where you and possible others are having problems is trying to think there is some sort of replacement. There is no replacing of grammar . the math operations are in addition to what verbal grammar may be present. The use of math operations is no different than in a physics equation. Example: D = vt . distance is equal to velocity multiplied by time . what is important in our case it that distance is defined by this relationship of time and velocity being multiplied. It is the same in mathpo. Of course the average person will say that the former physics equation makes logical sense but Bob's poems do not make logical sense. That is because the average person doesn't understand the logical structure of metaphor. Metaphors do not make sense! Example: He is a Deer. << This is total nonsense because "he" is a man and you are telling me he is a deer. Man = Deer . I don't get it, we see metaphors in poetry all the time and no one has any problem but when we see it in a math equation all hell breaks loose. We mathpoets are trying to teach you a different but beautiful way of looking at mathematics. We are freeing mathematics from the boundaries of denotation and watching it bloom into connotation. If you want to attack Bob's mathpo attack it for its content not its structure. There is nothing wrong with what Bob is doing. To that add that apparently such things as "1/2 0 = c" are not intended as math operands at all but rather some sort of jejune symbol-play, so that even Grumman's purported use of math symbols to replace grammar is not operating, and you have just the sort of thing that ordinary people look at as bull. Marcus If you want to say it is boring I can accept your opinion .but it is far from bull Kaz Maslanka http://www.kazmaslanka.com/kaz_maslanka_art_from_1990_to_2000.html PS I find Nico Vassilakis' example more in the realm of vispo not mathpo. I find performing math operations on text vispo and performing math operations on words (meanings) mathpo But I would imagine Bob would disagree. Robin Hamilton wrote: > Actually, with Bob, it helps *not* to know too much about mathematics, > otherwise you get puzzled as to how you can derive a fraction of zero. > I had two takes at "1/2 0 equals c" (not Bob himself, but Bob quoting and > commenting on a rather nice image by Nico Vassilakis, on his blog) before > I > decided that even Einstein would have been baffled. > Just goes to show. Something. > Maybe Bob knows something the rest of us don't. > Robin, If you take a circle and cut it into 2 pieces you get ( ) or a "c" so to speak and a backward "c" Too true. But the same can be said of his "taxonomy". The less you know about science and the scientific method, the better it probably sounds. His constant refrain is that he is busy and hurried and doesn't have time to explain it, but that he knows he's right. Marcus Cheers, Kaz Maslanka kaz http://www.kazmaslanka.com http://www.kazmaslanka.com/kaz_maslanka_art_from_1990_to_2000.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Sep 8 21:29:20 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:29:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re Bob Grummans math ... from Kaz Maslanka References: <200509081600.j88G05M3002528@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <8C782F27D43055A-588-1636@MBLK-M14.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <006301c5b4dd$e7828570$91b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> PS I find Nico Vassilakis' example more in the realm of vispo not mathpo. I find performing math operations on text vispo and performing math operations on words (meanings) mathpo But I would imagine Bob would disagree. I'm not sure, Kaz. I never thought about it. Nico's equation (really just part of a visual poem) does math, so I would call it mathematical SOMEthing. Mathematical vispo, I guess--but still a form of mathematical poetry. So math operations on words would be mathematical textpo. . . . Nico's halving of O does do math on a meaning, though, since O is both zero and oh, and the product, c, is light. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 8 21:37:18 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:37:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Coming Up @ Poets House Message-ID: <6b.4d174030.3052414e@aol.com> In a message dated 9/7/2005 11:13:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, announce at poetshouse.org writes: September at Poets House 9/9: Purgatorio: Prints by Milton Glaser Opens 9/16: Lee Ann Brown on Walt Whitman @ South Street Seaport Museum 9/17: Choreography: Poetics with Fanny Howe & Ralph Lemon 9/18: The Language of Flowers with Susan Kinsolving & Marta McDowell @ BPC 9/20: Purgatorio seminar with Sharon Dolin and Phillis Levin starts 9/22: The Road to William Carlos Williams with Philip Levine 9/24: Liz Rosenberg & Hal Sirowitz in the Children's Room 9/28: The Verses of the Troubadours with W. D. Snodgrass & Robert Kehew 9/30: Application Deadline for Kathleen Fraser Master Class Other events of interest at Poets House: 9/23: Marsh Hawk Press Reception 9/30: Lawrence Joseph Book Party _________________________________________________________ Purgatorio: Prints by Milton Glaser Opening Reception: Friday, Sept. 9, 6-8pm Exhibition on view through October 29 Admission Free Please join us this Friday (September 9th) to celebrate the opening of the first New York presentation of 20 exquisite monoprints illustrating scenes from Dante?s Purgatorio by the renowned artist Milton Glaser. _________________________________________________________ Walt Whitman: Poet and Printer @ the South Street Seaport Museum Hear his work & that of poets influenced by him Try your hand at a letterpress printer like the one he used Last reading in the series: Friday, September 16 @ 7pm - Lee Ann Brown Bowne & Co. Stationers South Street Seaport Museum 211 Water St (between Beekman and Fulton) Admission: $6, $3 for Members For reservations call 212-748-8786 Co-sponsored by the South Street Seaport Museum _________________________________________________________ Saturday, September 17, 3pm Choreography: Poetics A reading and conversation with Fanny Howe & Ralph Lemon Admission Free Join us to hear a reading and conversation with poet Fanny Howe and choreographer Ralph Lemon as they discuss dance and poetry?two isolated art forms, one that relies on the body, the other on language?in relation to issues of race, class, and gender. This event is part of the LMCC?s inaugural Downtown Poetry Walk. _________________________________________________________ Sunday, September 18, 2pm The Language of Flowers with Susan Kinsolving & Marta McDowell @ Robert F. Wagner Jr. Park, Battery Park City $10, $5 for children, Free for Members. Pre-registration required, call 212-267-9700. Space is limited. Explore the role flowers play in poetry, history, and folklore. Join poet Kinsolving and scholar McDowell for this reading and conversation, surrounded by the gardens at Battery Park City. Co-sponsored by Battery Park City Parks Conservancy. _________________________________________________________ 2 sessions: Tuesdays, September 20 & 27, 7-9:30pm Dante?s Purgatorio: A Seminar/Workshop for Poets Instructors: Sharon Dolin and Phillis Levin with Peter Covino $50. Registration required. Space is limited. This course works with Glaser?s visual interpretation of Dante and explores several translations of selected passages from the Purgatorio. Students will be encouraged to re-envision or respond poetically to a section of the Purgatorio. More info at http://poetshouse.org/progwkshp.htm. _________________________________________________________ Thursday, September 22, 7pm The Road to William Carlos Williams with Philip Levine $7, Free to Members Levine discusses his discovery of the poetry of William Carlos Williams and how it changed the way he thought about language and the creation of a poem. _________________________________________________________ Poetry in the Children?s Room September 24, 11am Writing Poetry Together with Liz Rosenberg & Hal Sirowitz Admission Free All together now! Liz and Hal lead a workshop showing us how to write in haiku and other poetic forms. They?ll also read their favorite children?s poem from over the years. _________________________________________________________ Wednesday, September 28, 7pm Lark in the Morning: The Verses of the Troubadours with W. D. Snodgrass & Robert Kehew $7, Free to Members A celebration of the influential poetry of the troubadours, whose work flourished in southern France during the height of the Middle Ages. Snodgrass and Kehew present verse translations of poems by Bertran de Ventadorn, the Monk of Montaudo, Bertran de Born, Marcabru, and oth-ers, and discuss their history, relevance to 20th-century poetics, and the challenges of translating their work. _________________________________________________________ Kathleen Fraser Master Class Sat. Oct. 29, 10am-1pm & Sun. Oct. 30, 10am-3pm $250, Space is limited. Applications must be received by September 30 This course focuses on substitution and the art of revision: how the use of space and line can affect meaning and sound, the impact of sentences and paragraphs on an otherwise linear poetic text, the role of disappearing words, and the legal issues of using found material. More info at http://poetshouse.org/progwkshp.htm. _________________________________________________________ Other events of interest at Poets House: Friday, September 23, 7-9 PM, Free Marsh Hawk Press Reception Celebrate the publication of new poetry books by Sandy McIntosh, Eileen Tabios, and Harriet Zinnes. For more information on the books visit www.marshhawkpress.org _________________________________________________________ Friday, September 30, 6:30-8:30pm, Free Lawrence Joseph Book Party to celebrate his fourth book of poems Into It RSVP 212-741-6900, ext. 277 _________________________________________________________ Poets House is a literary center and poetry archive -- a collection and meeting place that invites poets and the public to step into the living tradition of poetry. Our 45,000 volumes of books, journals, chapbooks, audiotapes, videos and electronic media is the most comprehensive open-access collection of poetry in the United States. The Reading Room is free and open to the public Tuesday-Friday, 11-7pm & Saturday 11-4pm. The Children's Reading Room is open Saturday 11-1pm. Please call (212) 431-7920 or visit our website http://www.poetshouse.org for more information & for holiday closings. Poets House 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor, New York, NY 10012 _________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 01:22:09 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 01:22:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] THAT RON SILLIMAN SITCOM is up at jimbehrle.com Message-ID: <9cf3604505090822224814793b@mail.gmail.com> Watch it now! Read the script!<../http://thejimside.blog-city.com/that_ron_silliman_sitcom_the_pilot_the_betterest.htm/> Filmed live at the Bowery Poetry Club Wednesday 9/7/05. Written by Jim Behrle. When Poetry's #1 Blogger Ron Silliman is named the editor of the BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2011, the power goes directly to his head--and his sitemeter! Starring Jim Behrle, Nick Kass Johnson, Bob Holman, Sarah Manguso and Jordan Davis as himself. Luv Jim Behrle ~see my orgasm face at jimbehrle.com~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 08:34:05 2005 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 05:34:05 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Northwest Makes Comeback Message-ID: <648208b60509090534688a4930@mail.gmail.com> PRESS RELEASE Date: September 8, 2005 ? For Immediate Release Contact: Claire Sykes, Associate Editor Poetry Northwest (503) 239-4422 claire at poetrynw.org POETRY NORTHWEST IS BACK! David Biespiel named editor of the 43-year-old journal that resumes publication in March 2006 PORTLAND, OR?The University of Washington announces that under an agreement with The Attic Writers? Workshop in Portland, Oregon, Poetry Northwest will be published biannually, as a new series, beginning March 2006. Poet and critic David Biespiel has been named Editor. Poetry Northwest was founded in 1959 by Carolyn Kizer, Richard Hugo and others, and was edited from 1966-2002 by David Wagoner. The magazine ceased circulation in 2002 because of funding difficulties. At the time, it was the longest-running poetry-only journal in the U.S. A hallmark of the Northwest literary scene for more than four decades, Poetry Northwest attained eminence for publishing some of the best poetry by established and up-and-coming poets from around the country and abroad. Writers who have appeared in the magazine include Harold Pinter, Joyce Carol Oates, Annie Dillard, Raymond Carver, Ted Kooser, James Dickey, Robert Pinsky, Richard Wilbur, Mary Oliver, Jorie Graham, Michael Harper, Stanley Kunitz, Thom Gunn, Phillip Larkin, May Swenson, Theodore Roethke, W.S. Merwin, John Berryman, Czeslaw Milosz, Marilyn Hacker, Stanley Plumly, Anne Sexton, James Wright, William Stafford and Mark Strand. ?This journal, by title, speaks to the nation about what over the years has been a region rich with poets and poetry,? says Richard Dunn, Chair of the University of Washington English Department. ?We know that Poetry Northwest has been much missed since the university stopped publishing it. The prospect of a new series comes as good news." The revived Poetry Northwest will continue to offer intelligent, insightful and inspiring poetry?as well as essays and reviews?by recognized and emerging poets and writers. "I?m delighted to throw open the doors again,? says Biespiel. ?Poetry Northwest has a noble reputation. With a new format and a fantastic staff in place, I hope to honor its legacy.? Biespiel (pronounced bye-speel), of Portland, is the author of Wild Civility (University of Washington Press, 2003) and Shattering Air (BOA Editions, 1996). He is a contributor to American Poetry Review, The New Republic and Poetry. His poetry reviews have appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Sewanee Review and Literary Imagination, and his monthly column on poetry appears in the The Oregonian. Biespiel is the recipient of a Stegner Fellowship in Poetry at Stanford University and an NEA Fellowship in Literature. He has taught at the University of Maryland, Stanford and George Washington universities, and was Richard H. Thornton Writer-in-Residence at Lynchburg College. Since 2001, he has divided his teaching between Oregon State University and Portland State University. In 1999, he founded The Attic Writers? Workshop, a literary studio that offers creative writing classes. ?We're excited to have Poetry Northwest in the hands of an exceptional poet who knows and respects the tradition of this journal,? says Dunn. ?Too, through his work at The Attic and university teaching, he bridges the worlds of public and academic poetry, which will contribute to the journal's ability to reacha diverse and growing community of writers. The University of Washington looks forward to the magazine's bright future.? To schedule an interview with David Biespiel, please call The Attic, (503) 963-8783. # # # ******************* Claire Sykes, Associate Editor Poetry Northwest (503) 239-4422 claire at poetrynw.org From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 08:34:34 2005 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 05:34:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Northwest Makes Comeback Message-ID: <648208b60509090534485437ee@mail.gmail.com> PRESS RELEASE Date: September 8, 2005 ? For Immediate Release Contact: Claire Sykes, Associate Editor Poetry Northwest (503) 239-4422 claire at poetrynw.org POETRY NORTHWEST IS BACK! David Biespiel named editor of the 43-year-old journal that resumes publication in March 2006 PORTLAND, OR?The University of Washington announces that under an agreement with The Attic Writers? Workshop in Portland, Oregon, Poetry Northwest will be published biannually, as a new series, beginning March 2006. Poet and critic David Biespiel has been named Editor. Poetry Northwest was founded in 1959 by Carolyn Kizer, Richard Hugo and others, and was edited from 1966-2002 by David Wagoner. The magazine ceased circulation in 2002 because of funding difficulties. At the time, it was the longest-running poetry-only journal in the U.S. A hallmark of the Northwest literary scene for more than four decades, Poetry Northwest attained eminence for publishing some of the best poetry by established and up-and-coming poets from around the country and abroad. Writers who have appeared in the magazine include Harold Pinter, Joyce Carol Oates, Annie Dillard, Raymond Carver, Ted Kooser, James Dickey, Robert Pinsky, Richard Wilbur, Mary Oliver, Jorie Graham, Michael Harper, Stanley Kunitz, Thom Gunn, Phillip Larkin, May Swenson, Theodore Roethke, W.S. Merwin, John Berryman, Czeslaw Milosz, Marilyn Hacker, Stanley Plumly, Anne Sexton, James Wright, William Stafford and Mark Strand. ?This journal, by title, speaks to the nation about what over the years has been a region rich with poets and poetry,? says Richard Dunn, Chair of the University of Washington English Department. ?We know that Poetry Northwest has been much missed since the university stopped publishing it. The prospect of a new series comes as good news." The revived Poetry Northwest will continue to offer intelligent, insightful and inspiring poetry?as well as essays and reviews?by recognized and emerging poets and writers. "I?m delighted to throw open the doors again,? says Biespiel. ?Poetry Northwest has a noble reputation. With a new format and a fantastic staff in place, I hope to honor its legacy.? Biespiel (pronounced bye-speel), of Portland, is the author of Wild Civility (University of Washington Press, 2003) and Shattering Air (BOA Editions, 1996). He is a contributor to American Poetry Review, The New Republic and Poetry. His poetry reviews have appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Sewanee Review and Literary Imagination, and his monthly column on poetry appears in the The Oregonian. Biespiel is the recipient of a Stegner Fellowship in Poetry at Stanford University and an NEA Fellowship in Literature. He has taught at the University of Maryland, Stanford and George Washington universities, and was Richard H. Thornton Writer-in-Residence at Lynchburg College. Since 2001, he has divided his teaching between Oregon State University and Portland State University. In 1999, he founded The Attic Writers? Workshop, a literary studio that offers creative writing classes. ?We're excited to have Poetry Northwest in the hands of an exceptional poet who knows and respects the tradition of this journal,? says Dunn. ?Too, through his work at The Attic and university teaching, he bridges the worlds of public and academic poetry, which will contribute to the journal's ability to reacha diverse and growing community of writers. The University of Washington looks forward to the magazine's bright future.? To schedule an interview with David Biespiel, please call The Attic, (503) 963-8783. # # # ******************* Claire Sykes, Associate Editor Poetry Northwest (503) 239-4422 claire at poetrynw.org From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Sep 9 09:09:02 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:09:02 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Library of Congress - Alaska Message-ID: <021f01c5b53f$a682e350$6fec3652@ANNY> > From: Laura Gottesman [mailto:lgot at loc.gov] > Sent: maandag 29 augustus 2005 22:04 Meeting of Frontiers Update Marks Purchase of Alaska, 100th Anniversary of the Portsmouth Peace Conference. The Library of Congress has added new collections and interpretive essays to the Meeting of Frontiers Web site , the eighth time since the site was first launched in December 1999 [Consult the following Web page to find direct links to new items: < http://international.loc.gov/intldl/mtfhtml/mfdigcol/newitems.html >]. Many of the new materials highlight two key episodes in the history of U.S.-Russia relations: the purchase of Alaska by the United States from Russia in 1867 and the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05, which was concluded at the Portsmouth Peace Conference in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in September 1905. The latest expansion includes over 1,500 items in 7 new collections and 7 existing collections, totaling over 45,000 digital images. These materials are from the Library of Congress, the National Library of Russia (St. Petersburg), the Russian State Library (Moscow), and the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration. Items and collections related to the Russo-Japanese War include photographs from the battlefields, silent films and photographs of activities at the Portsmouth Peace Conference, and the papers of William A. Marshall. As commander of the Vicksburg, a U.S. Navy ship that was stationed as a neutral observer in the waters between Japan and Russia, Marshall witnessed the Battle of Chemulpo Bay. His papers include situation reports to the Navy, correspondence with American diplomats in Seoul, and photographs of the sinking of the Russian ships Koreetz and Varyag. The materials relating to the purchase of Alaska draw on collections in the National Archives and the Manuscript Division of the Library of Congress. Items from the National Archives include the canceled $7.2 million check for the purchase and the original treaties signed by Tsar Alexander II and President Andrew Johnson. Items from the Library of Congress include copies of memoranda, letters, and briefing reports by such Russian luminaries as Baron von Wrangel, Count Reutern, and Grand Duke Konstantin. Other additions to the site include, from the National Library of Russia, an album of 274 photographs taken in the late 1920s in Birobidzhan, the capital of the Jewish Autonomous Region; a geographic card set of the Russian Empire from 1856; and albums depicting daily life in Yakutia, early Russian expeditions to Siberia and the Russian Far East, and 19th century life in Siberian cities. Additions from the Russian State Library include a number of rare maps of explorations in Siberia. Meeting of Frontiers is funded by Congressional appropriations in the Library of Congress's FY 1999 and FY 2004 budgets. The project is part of the Library's Global Gateway initiative of digital library partnerships with leading libraries around the world, including the national libraries of Brazil, France, the Netherlands, and Spain: < http://international.loc.gov/intldl/find/digital_collaborations.html >. Please direct any questions to the Global Gateway inquiry form: < http://www.loc.gov/help/contact-international.html >. >>>>> Laura Gottesman Reference Specialist The Library of Congress -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Sep 9 10:25:56 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:25:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Northwest Makes Comeback References: <648208b60509090534688a4930@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001b01c5b54a$67740030$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Godspeed to it, and best wishes to continue in the excellent tradition it established. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: "new-poetry" Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Northwest Makes Comeback > PRESS RELEASE > > Date: September 8, 2005 ? For Immediate Release > > Contact: Claire Sykes, Associate Editor > Poetry Northwest > (503) 239-4422 > claire at poetrynw.org > > > POETRY NORTHWEST IS BACK! > > David Biespiel named editor of the 43-year-old journal > that resumes publication in March 2006 > > > > PORTLAND, OR?The University of Washington announces that under an > agreement with The Attic Writers? Workshop in Portland, Oregon, Poetry > Northwest will be published biannually, as a new series, beginning > March 2006. Poet and critic David Biespiel has been named Editor. > > Poetry Northwest was founded in 1959 by Carolyn Kizer, Richard Hugo and > others, and was edited from 1966-2002 by David Wagoner. The magazine > ceased circulation in 2002 because of funding difficulties. At the > time, it was the longest-running poetry-only journal in the U.S. A > hallmark of the Northwest literary scene for more than four decades, > Poetry Northwest attained eminence for publishing some of the best > poetry by established and up-and-coming poets from around the country > and abroad. Writers who have appeared in the magazine include Harold > Pinter, Joyce Carol Oates, Annie Dillard, Raymond Carver, Ted Kooser, > James Dickey, Robert Pinsky, Richard Wilbur, Mary Oliver, Jorie Graham, > Michael Harper, Stanley Kunitz, Thom Gunn, Phillip Larkin, May Swenson, > Theodore Roethke, W.S. Merwin, John Berryman, Czeslaw Milosz, Marilyn > Hacker, Stanley Plumly, Anne Sexton, James Wright, William Stafford and > Mark Strand. > > ?This journal, by title, speaks to the nation about what over the years > has been a region rich with poets and poetry,? says Richard Dunn, Chair > of the University of Washington English Department. ?We know that > Poetry Northwest has been much missed since the university stopped > publishing it. The prospect of a new series comes as good news." > > The revived Poetry Northwest will continue to offer intelligent, > insightful and inspiring poetry?as well as essays and reviews?by > recognized and emerging poets and writers. "I?m delighted to throw open > the doors again,? says Biespiel. ?Poetry Northwest has a noble > reputation. With a new format and a fantastic staff in place, I hope to > honor its legacy.? > > Biespiel (pronounced bye-speel), of Portland, is the author of Wild > Civility (University of Washington Press, 2003) and Shattering Air (BOA > Editions, 1996). He is a contributor to American Poetry Review, The New > Republic and Poetry. His poetry reviews have appeared in The New York > Times, The Washington Post, Sewanee Review and Literary Imagination, > and his monthly column on poetry appears in the The Oregonian. Biespiel > is the recipient of a Stegner Fellowship in Poetry at Stanford > University and an NEA Fellowship in Literature. He has taught at the > University of Maryland, Stanford and George Washington universities, > and was Richard H. Thornton Writer-in-Residence at Lynchburg College. > Since 2001, he has divided his teaching between Oregon State University > and Portland State University. In 1999, he founded The Attic Writers? > Workshop, a literary studio that offers creative writing classes. > > ?We're excited to have Poetry Northwest in the hands of an exceptional > poet who knows and respects the tradition of this journal,? says Dunn. > ?Too, through his work at The Attic and university teaching, he bridges > the worlds of public and academic poetry, which will contribute to the > journal's ability to reacha diverse and growing community of writers. > The University of Washington looks forward to the magazine's bright > future.? > > To schedule an interview with David Biespiel, please call The Attic, > (503) 963-8783. > > # # # > > ******************* > Claire Sykes, Associate Editor > Poetry Northwest > (503) 239-4422 > claire at poetrynw.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Sep 9 06:44:35 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 05:44:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Northwest Makes Comeback In-Reply-To: <648208b60509090534688a4930@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Poetry Northwest was one of my first big poetry publications. I'm glad it's back. Paul Lake On 9/9/05 7:34 AM, "James Cervantes" wrote: > PRESS RELEASE > > Date: September 8, 2005 ? For Immediate Release > > Contact: Claire Sykes, Associate Editor > Poetry Northwest > (503) 239-4422 > claire at poetrynw.org > > > POETRY NORTHWEST IS BACK! > > David Biespiel named editor of the 43-year-old journal > that resumes publication in March 2006 > > > > PORTLAND, OR?The University of Washington announces that under an > agreement with The Attic Writers? Workshop in Portland, Oregon, Poetry > Northwest will be published biannually, as a new series, beginning > March 2006. Poet and critic David Biespiel has been named Editor. > > Poetry Northwest was founded in 1959 by Carolyn Kizer, Richard Hugo and > others, and was edited from 1966-2002 by David Wagoner. The magazine > ceased circulation in 2002 because of funding difficulties. At the > time, it was the longest-running poetry-only journal in the U.S. A > hallmark of the Northwest literary scene for more than four decades, > Poetry Northwest attained eminence for publishing some of the best > poetry by established and up-and-coming poets from around the country > and abroad. Writers who have appeared in the magazine include Harold > Pinter, Joyce Carol Oates, Annie Dillard, Raymond Carver, Ted Kooser, > James Dickey, Robert Pinsky, Richard Wilbur, Mary Oliver, Jorie Graham, > Michael Harper, Stanley Kunitz, Thom Gunn, Phillip Larkin, May Swenson, > Theodore Roethke, W.S. Merwin, John Berryman, Czeslaw Milosz, Marilyn > Hacker, Stanley Plumly, Anne Sexton, James Wright, William Stafford and > Mark Strand. > > ?This journal, by title, speaks to the nation about what over the years > has been a region rich with poets and poetry,? says Richard Dunn, Chair > of the University of Washington English Department. ?We know that > Poetry Northwest has been much missed since the university stopped > publishing it. The prospect of a new series comes as good news." > > The revived Poetry Northwest will continue to offer intelligent, > insightful and inspiring poetry?as well as essays and reviews?by > recognized and emerging poets and writers. "I?m delighted to throw open > the doors again,? says Biespiel. ?Poetry Northwest has a noble > reputation. With a new format and a fantastic staff in place, I hope to > honor its legacy.? > > Biespiel (pronounced bye-speel), of Portland, is the author of Wild > Civility (University of Washington Press, 2003) and Shattering Air (BOA > Editions, 1996). He is a contributor to American Poetry Review, The New > Republic and Poetry. His poetry reviews have appeared in The New York > Times, The Washington Post, Sewanee Review and Literary Imagination, > and his monthly column on poetry appears in the The Oregonian. Biespiel > is the recipient of a Stegner Fellowship in Poetry at Stanford > University and an NEA Fellowship in Literature. He has taught at the > University of Maryland, Stanford and George Washington universities, > and was Richard H. Thornton Writer-in-Residence at Lynchburg College. > Since 2001, he has divided his teaching between Oregon State University > and Portland State University. In 1999, he founded The Attic Writers? > Workshop, a literary studio that offers creative writing classes. > > ?We're excited to have Poetry Northwest in the hands of an exceptional > poet who knows and respects the tradition of this journal,? says Dunn. > ?Too, through his work at The Attic and university teaching, he bridges > the worlds of public and academic poetry, which will contribute to the > journal's ability to reacha diverse and growing community of writers. > The University of Washington looks forward to the magazine's bright > future.? > > To schedule an interview with David Biespiel, please call The Attic, > (503) 963-8783. > > # # # > > ******************* > Claire Sykes, Associate Editor > Poetry Northwest > (503) 239-4422 > claire at poetrynw.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Sep 9 15:26:56 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:26:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Northwest Makes Comeback Message-ID: <1e.4d291699.30533c00@aol.com> I always liked them--even though I never got in there--because they got back to you fast, usually inside of a month. The only other place that had that quick a turnaround was Poet & Critic when Neal Bowers ran it, and they wrote you a note with each submission as well. In a message dated 9/9/2005 1:46:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE Poetry Northwest was one of my first big poetry publications. I'm glad it's back. Paul Lake On 9/9/05 7:34 AM, "James Cervantes" wrote: > PRESS RELEASE > > Date: September 8, 2005 ? For Immediate Release > > Contact: Claire Sykes, Associate Editor > Poetry Northwest > (503) 239-4422 > claire at poetrynw.org > > > POETRY NORTHWEST IS BACK! > > David Biespiel named editor of the 43-year-old journal > that resumes publication in March 2006 > > > > PORTLAND, OR?The University of Washington announces that under an > agreement with The Attic Writers? Workshop in Portland, Oregon, Poetry > Northwest will be published biannually, as a new series, beginning > March 2006. Poet and critic David Biespiel has been named Editor. > > Poetry Northwest was founded in 1959 by Carolyn Kizer, Richard Hugo and > others, and was edited from 1966-2002 by David Wagoner. The magazine > ceased circulation in 2002 because of funding difficulties. At the > time, it was the longest-running poetry-only journal in the U.S. A > hallmark of the Northwest literary scene for more than four decades, > Poetry Northwest attained eminence for publishing some of the best > poetry by established and up-and-coming poets from around the country > and abroad. Writers who have appeared in the magazine include Harold > Pinter, Joyce Carol Oates, Annie Dillard, Raymond Carver, Ted Kooser, > James Dickey, Robert Pinsky, Richard Wilbur, Mary Oliver, Jorie Graham, > Michael Harper, Stanley Kunitz, Thom Gunn, Phillip Larkin, May Swenson, > Theodore Roethke, W.S. Merwin, John Berryman, Czeslaw Milosz, Marilyn > Hacker, Stanley Plumly, Anne Sexton, James Wright, William Stafford and > Mark Strand. > > ?This journal, by title, speaks to the nation about what over the years > has been a region rich with poets and poetry,? says Richard Dunn, Chair > of the University of Washington English Department. ?We know that > Poetry Northwest has been much missed since the university stopped > publishing it. The prospect of a new series comes as good news." > > The revived Poetry Northwest will continue to offer intelligent, > insightful and inspiring poetry?as well as essays and reviews?by > recognized and emerging poets and writers. "I?m delighted to throw open > the doors again,? says Biespiel. ?Poetry Northwest has a noble > reputation. With a new format and a fantastic staff in place, I hope to > honor its legacy.? > > Biespiel (pronounced bye-speel), of Portland, is the author of Wild > Civility (University of Washington Press, 2003) and Shattering Air (BOA > Editions, 1996). He is a contributor to American Poetry Review, The New > Republic and Poetry. His poetry reviews have appeared in The New York > Times, The Washington Post, Sewanee Review and Literary Imagination, > and his monthly column on poetry appears in the The Oregonian. Biespiel > is the recipient of a Stegner Fellowship in Poetry at Stanford > University and an NEA Fellowship in Literature. He has taught at the > University of Maryland, Stanford and George Washington universities, > and was Richard H. Thornton Writer-in-Residence at Lynchburg College. > Since 2001, he has divided his teaching between Oregon State University > and Portland State University. In 1999, he founded The Attic Writers? > Workshop, a literary studio that offers creative writing classes. > > ?We're excited to have Poetry Northwest in the hands of an exceptional > poet who knows and respects the tradition of this journal,? says Dunn. > ?Too, through his work at The Attic and university teaching, he bridges > the worlds of public and academic poetry, which will contribute to the > journal's ability to reacha diverse and growing community of writers. > The University of Washington looks forward to the magazine's bright > future.? > > To schedule an interview with David Biespiel, please call The Attic, > (503) 963-8783. > > # # # > > ******************* > Claire Sykes, Associate Editor > Poetry Northwest > (503) 239-4422 > claire at poetrynw.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Fri Sep 9 20:47:18 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:47:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Michael Magee Message-ID: Mike Magee posted a very thoughtful note at Geoffrey Gatza's blog today, regarding the "blog conflicts" of past few days. Predictably, a certain blogger (see below) has inundated the comments boxes with vitriol, some of it quite funny, both intentionally and unintentionally so. http://www.blazevox.org/blog/ In any case, I've added the below note to the site, and thought I'd share it here, too. Kent * I just got up here to see all this. I gather Jim Behrle is upset partly because I referred (in my response to Kasey Mohammad) to his "wild, slanderous, ad hominem acting out." And then I referred to him as the "troubled mascot" of a certain blogging affinity group. Kind of mild, those rather objective descriptions. And having read through some of this, well, I guess I rest my case (albeit happily chuckling, as I do realize some of this *is* funny, and on various levels). Actually, I'm kind of honored by the obsessive attention. I hope Jim Behrle continues to pursue his calling. The AWP piece Jim refers to is indeed part of Adventures in Poetry Blogland. It's all quite harmless and also lots of fun. In it, Jim comes across as a somewhat lovable Chucky sort of figure, spattered in blood, holding a poet's head, screaming, "Who's next?" The piece ends with a strange allusion to Grace Kelly and Cary Grant driving in Monaco, as the Space Shuttle falls apart in the sky above them. Winning as this piece is (I believe it's the only piece Behrle appears in, so he should consider himself lucky--I couldn't even fit him into my epigrams book), there are better ones in the collection. My favorite, I think, is "The Castle of Perseverance, or: the Interlude of Youth," a farce wherein the characters bear latinized names, and wherein one of the members of Jim Behrle's affinity group gets spanked, very naughtily, by a famous blogger, as lots of other weird things happen around them. Though maybe there are better pieces than that one, too... Anyway, Adventures in Poetry Blogland is in the proud poetic tradition of satire, parody, and farce. And like Epigramititis, it uses visuals (thanks to the genius of Geoffrey Gatza) in odder, less predictable ways than Jim's cartoons (well, that's just my opinion, people will have their opinions). Now, and in relation to what Mike eloquently writes, Yasusada is an entirely different matter. And I think it frustrates some people (i.e. those who have resented and disparaged the work and who are now beginning to realize it is all a bit more complicated than they thought and is going to last for quite some time) that the same person associated with the Yasusada books as editor is also making little bagatelle-ish forays into satirical send-ups of the poetry scene, apparently unworried about the "contradiction." Well, it's true, I'm not worried in the least. In fact, I feel more confident and satisfied now than I have ever felt in my poetic, editing, and translating life. Time will tell! Now let's sit back and watch the dwarf jester in his suit of horse hair continue to replay his spontaneous self-combustion. Kent From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 9 21:07:20 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 02:07:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Michael Magee References: Message-ID: <003401c5b5a3$ff17e560$20e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Y'know, Kent, although you have global aspirations, I keep getting this unfortunate impression of what a small world you inhabit, as always the emphasis is on literary acceptance, the status of the Yasusada poems or Epigrammatis, for instance, in other people's eyes. Thanks to my new and accursed vari-focals I can hardly see out my own eyes let alone anyone else's, I know there are literary scenes, the threadbare and solethinshod derelict art of poetry is rife and rived by them, footache is the true basis of metrics (y'now, just under the left tendon). I could start pealing my own tunes, but I hate the sound of cracked bells. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 1:47 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Michael Magee > Mike Magee posted a very thoughtful note at Geoffrey Gatza's blog today, > regarding the "blog conflicts" of past few days. Predictably, a certain > blogger (see below) has inundated the comments boxes with vitriol, some > of it quite funny, both intentionally and unintentionally so. > > http://www.blazevox.org/blog/ > > In any case, I've added the below note to the site, and thought I'd > share it here, too. > > Kent > > * > > I just got up here to see all this. > > I gather Jim Behrle is upset partly because I referred (in my response > to Kasey Mohammad) to his "wild, slanderous, ad hominem acting out." And > then I referred to him as the "troubled mascot" of a certain blogging > affinity group. > > Kind of mild, those rather objective descriptions. And having read > through some of this, well, I guess I rest my case (albeit happily > chuckling, as I do realize some of this *is* funny, and on various > levels). Actually, I'm kind of honored by the obsessive attention. I > hope Jim Behrle continues to pursue his calling. > > The AWP piece Jim refers to is indeed part of Adventures in Poetry > Blogland. It's all quite harmless and also lots of fun. In it, Jim comes > across as a somewhat lovable Chucky sort of figure, spattered in blood, > holding a poet's head, screaming, "Who's next?" The piece ends with a > strange allusion to Grace Kelly and Cary Grant driving in Monaco, as the > Space Shuttle falls apart in the sky above them. Winning as this piece > is (I believe it's the only piece Behrle appears in, so he should > consider himself lucky--I couldn't even fit him into my epigrams book), > there are better ones in the collection. My favorite, I think, is "The > Castle of Perseverance, or: the Interlude of Youth," a farce wherein the > characters bear latinized names, and wherein one of the members of Jim > Behrle's affinity group gets spanked, very naughtily, by a famous > blogger, as lots of other weird things happen around them. Though maybe > there are better pieces than that one, too... > > Anyway, Adventures in Poetry Blogland is in the proud poetic tradition > of satire, parody, and farce. And like Epigramititis, it uses visuals > (thanks to the genius of Geoffrey Gatza) in odder, less predictable ways > than Jim's cartoons (well, that's just my opinion, people will have > their opinions). > > Now, and in relation to what Mike eloquently writes, Yasusada is an > entirely different matter. And I think it frustrates some people (i.e. > those who have resented and disparaged the work and who are now > beginning to realize it is all a bit more complicated than they thought > and is going to last for quite some time) that the same person > associated with the Yasusada books as editor is also making little > bagatelle-ish forays into satirical send-ups of the poetry scene, > apparently unworried about the "contradiction." Well, it's true, I'm not > worried in the least. In fact, I feel more confident and satisfied now > than I have ever felt in my poetic, editing, and translating life. > > Time will tell! > > Now let's sit back and watch the dwarf jester in his suit of horse hair > continue to replay his spontaneous self-combustion. > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Fri Sep 9 21:26:50 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 20:26:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Mike Magee Message-ID: All reactions welcome, David. At least you didn't "spit on" me this time! :~) But please do read Mike Magee's commentary at the link. That's the main reason I posted on this. Mike is a very thoughtful guy. His book on Emerson and pragmatism in American poetry a really fine work... Kent * David B. said: >Y'know, Kent, although you have global aspirations, I keep getting this unfortunate impression of what a small world you inhabit, as always the emphasis is on literary acceptance, the status of the Yasusada poems or Epigrammatis, for instance, in other people's eyes. From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 9 22:15:13 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 22:15:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] troublesome to place Addonizio Message-ID: <143.4c93d5ae.30539bb1@aol.com> http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/09.07.05/poetry-0536.html Litapalooza! Book Festival and Poetry Walk offer an embarassment of writerly riches By Jordan E. Rosenfeld Up until very recently, Bay Area scribe Kim Addonizio fit into one fairly easy to define category, that of poet. With the publication of her brand-new novel, Little Beauties (Simon & Schuster; $23), however, it may become troublesome to place Addonizio in any single category much longer. Little Beauties is the story of Diana McBride, a 34-year-old former pageant contender with obsessive compulsive disorder in not-quite-midlife crisis who meets unwilling pregnant teen Jamie Ramirez and her unborn baby, Stella, while working at a baby-clothing store. Their lives and fates become entwined and spin a tale of choices about motherhood, womanhood and destiny. Reviews reveal that what critics like about the novel is the very same thing they admire about Addonizio as a poet: her great ear for language. This comes as no surprise to Addonizio, whose inspiration for the book, an overheard conversation of a woman discussing her obsessive compulsive disorder, could have just as easily been the genesis of a poem. "Poetry is actually great training for fiction writing," she writes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 9 22:32:15 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 22:32:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry pole Message-ID: http://www.yakima-herald.com/page/dis/284198575177913 Published on Friday, September 9, 2005 Poetry pole yields 'Weathered Pages' By KIM NOWACKI YAKIMA HERALD-REPUBLIC The poetry pole, located on Jim Bodeen's front lawn in Yakima, is usually covered poetry and writing from members of the community. For 10 years, Jim Bodeen has been tending to a special garden. It's a place where rose bushes and literary seeds were planted long before Bodeen stuck a cedar pole in the ground, then stood back to see what would happen. The poetry pole in front of Bodeen's house on 15th and Bell avenues has been a place where anguish and grief are released, where love and happiness are posted for all to see and where anyone can become a "published" poet. There's no one to stop you from making your mark on the poetry pole. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Sep 9 23:13:04 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:13:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] troublesome to place Addonizio Message-ID: <96.2f4b0c21.3053a940@aol.com> Well sure, who ever heard of a poet publishing a novel before? I mean besides James, Dickey, Robert Penn Warren, Randall Jarrell, Richard Hugo, Robert Watson, Fred Chappell, John Ashbery, Marge Piercy, Margaret Atwood, Heather Ross Miller, Ron Rash, Joseph Bathanti, Robert Morgan, Tom Clark, Jay Parini, Donna Masini, Herman Melville, ee cummings, and probably not more than a hundred or so others. But I guess none of them lived in San Francisco. In a message dated 9/9/2005 10:15:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/09.07.05/poetry-0536.html Litapalooza! Book Festival and Poetry Walk offer an embarassment of writerly riches By Jordan E. Rosenfeld Up until very recently, Bay Area scribe Kim Addonizio fit into one fairly easy to define category, that of poet. With the publication of her brand-new novel, Little Beauties (Simon & Schuster; $23), however, it may become troublesome to place Addonizio in any single category much longer. Little Beauties is the story of Diana McBride, a 34-year-old former pageant contender with obsessive compulsive disorder in not-quite-midlife crisis who meets unwilling pregnant teen Jamie Ramirez and her unborn baby, Stella, while working at a baby-clothing store. Their lives and fates become entwined and spin a tale of choices about motherhood, womanhood and destiny. Reviews reveal that what critics like about the novel is the very same thing they admire about Addonizio as a poet: her great ear for language. This comes as no surprise to Addonizio, whose inspiration for the book, an overheard conversation of a woman discussing her obsessive compulsive disorder, could have just as easily been the genesis of a poem. "Poetry is actually great training for fiction writing," she writes _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 10 00:15:02 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 05:15:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Mike Magee References: Message-ID: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin> Actually, Joodles, you'd have found my Phid stunningly boring. There were exactly three people in the world who had the least bloody idea what I was on about. The one I wanted as my external was Joe Mazzeo. Anyway, Joe was an utter no-no as he was StateSide and would have cost too much to fly across. Also he would have blown my thesis apart if he had externaled it. The other two names in the frame were Dame Helen and A.J.Smith, Oh well, given that I'd gone to a hell of trouble *not* to work with Dame Helen at Oxford, and a large part of my thesis carefully avoided actually accusing Smith of plagarism, I suppose I was lucky. Bottom line was my thesis was rubber-stamped by Brian Morris. :-( But really, I'm not particularly proud of this. I should have dug my heels in and insisted that Joe Mazzeo externaled. So he'd have junked it, but better to be crashed by Joe than passed by idiots. R. dame The rhrer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 2:26 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Mike Magee > All reactions welcome, David. At least you didn't "spit on" me this > time! :~) > > But please do read Mike Magee's commentary at the link. That's the main > reason I posted on this. Mike is a very thoughtful guy. His book on > Emerson and pragmatism in American poetry a really fine work... > > Kent > > * > David B. said: > > >Y'know, Kent, although you have global aspirations, I keep getting > this > unfortunate impression of what a small world you inhabit, as always > the > emphasis is on literary acceptance, the status of the Yasusada poems > or > Epigrammatis, for instance, in other people's eyes. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Sep 10 02:33:50 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 08:33:50 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] troublesome to place Addonizio References: <96.2f4b0c21.3053a940@aol.com> Message-ID: <005401c5b5d1$9b820930$d3ae3452@ANNY> I guess Addonzio is not your first pick, :-) A great week-end to all, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome L'enfer, c'est les autres. J. P. Sartre From: AlMaginnes at aol.com Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 5:13 AM Well sure, who ever heard of a poet publishing a novel before? I mean besides James, Dickey, Robert Penn Warren, Randall Jarrell, Richard Hugo, Robert Watson, Fred Chappell, John Ashbery, Marge Piercy, Margaret Atwood, Heather Ross Miller, Ron Rash, Joseph Bathanti, Robert Morgan, Tom Clark, Jay Parini, Donna Masini, Herman Melville, ee cummings, and probably not more than a hundred or so others. But I guess none of them lived in San Francisco. In a message dated 9/9/2005 10:15:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/09.07.05/poetry-0536.html Litapalooza! Book Festival and Poetry Walk offer an embarassment of writerly riches By Jordan E. Rosenfeld -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 04:56:33 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:56:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Mike Magee References: Message-ID: <002401c5b5e5$8ba19d50$6de8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Ok, I've just been reading Mike Magee's commentary. My reaction is one of non-interest, really. The impression conveyed is of an argument in a glass bowl, I note, with something approaching the kindlings of (ironic) interest remarks like: >I think literary history is full of wild and gratuitous dust-ups among poets and that they most often prove to be harmless and sometimes even productive (Kerouac: "You're ruining American poetry O'Hara!" O'Hara: "That' s more than you ever did for it Jack." These are two great poets and I don't need to take a side in order to see and understand the fault line).< Droll, eh? But wait a second - since when was Kerouac a 'great poet'? Or for that matter since when was O'Hara (a good 'minor' poet, yes, but not much more than that). The real concerns of the issues show in the last sentence -'the fault line' and its 'sides' are the matter of the US poetry scene, who's in, who's out. Now, much as I like American poetry, and I do, issues about the pecking order across the waves are as about as vital to me as timetables of buses between Skegness and Chapel St Leonards, (both alleged resorts on the Lincolnshire coast), which latter might be of extreme importance to anyone who needs them (if such buses exist) but obviously not a big issue to me. I must admit I did smile when I saw a letter reproduced to an organ called 'The Believer'. It brought to mind Silas Marner and imaginings of the arguments about his alleged misdemeanours in that back-street chapel. I can concede that your project, as a curio, has a certain cache in the footnotes, just as, in a very different way, the 'Ern O'Malley' poems do in Australian literary records, note I avoided the grand reverberations of the word 'history' when following 'literary'. Your own note occasioned a smile too, Kent - you are a witty poster. But 'Epigrammatis'? Naming names? Who cares outside a small scattered ungathering of turnip seeds? My own take on the Brit literary-poetic 'scene' is largely one of I don't care anymore, except in respect that some of the hood-ies infiltrate the education system. And thereby season the dumbdown for the dumb belles and boys with the wordnumb of their own di-dum. But that's just part of the larger shift towards doctorated cretinism that my own dear UK is following the rather larger doggie of the States in, with a yip and a yup of Tony poodle glee. BTW, saying something like 'I spit on you' can, in the language world I inhabit, be equivalent to a good-natured tickle, we do, for instance, use phrases like 'hello you fat bastard' as friendly greetings. Yesterday a friend and I were looking at some of Rosemarie Waldrop's poems (a writer I like btw) - at one point my friend said 'I can could never use a word like that in a poem - it's too pompous'. I looked at what she was unhappy with - it was 'verisimiltude'. 'Ah', I said, 'you have to remember she's American.' Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 2:26 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Mike Magee > All reactions welcome, David. At least you didn't "spit on" me this > time! :~) > > But please do read Mike Magee's commentary at the link. That's the main > reason I posted on this. Mike is a very thoughtful guy. His book on > Emerson and pragmatism in American poetry a really fine work... > > Kent > > * > David B. said: > > >Y'know, Kent, although you have global aspirations, I keep getting > this > unfortunate impression of what a small world you inhabit, as always > the > emphasis is on literary acceptance, the status of the Yasusada poems > or > Epigrammatis, for instance, in other people's eyes. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 10 06:34:04 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:34:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Michael Magee References: <003401c5b5a3$ff17e560$20e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <001a01c5b5f3$2b100e00$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I know there are literary scenes, the threadbare > and solethinshod derelict art of poetry is rife and rived by them, > footache > is the true basis of metrics (y'now, just under the left tendon). > > I could start pealing my own tunes, but I hate the sound of cracked bells. Yeah, I'm beginning to think Behrle is another of Kent's personae. He was amusing at first, but now he's almost as boring as Kent. Oh, well, anything is better than me and you know who on poetics. --Bob G. From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 08:21:27 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 08:21:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] K=E=N=T Message-ID: <9cf3604505091005215105cac7@mail.gmail.com> from me, from the Blazevox blaze: "Hey, man--anybody publishing Kent, anybody going to one of his readings, anybody reading with Kent, anybody letting him borrow a quarter for the phone: all of those people are in play. Why anyone would dedicate one page of any chapbook to this pathetic creature, ~shrug~. But anyone having anything to do with Kent for as long as he lives crosses my line and enters my radar. A friend of Kent Johnson's is no friend of poetry...." Let's add to that anyone responding to one of his daily [New-Poetry] look-at-me's!!! All you big time poets MUST have something better to do then rollover every time Kent needs his tummy rubbed, right? Because this isn't a list of bored poetry nobodies! This is where my atoms smash against your atoms and turn into PURE BEAUTY! We'll see you in the cartoons! PURE BEAUTY! Luv Jimmy Behrle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 10 09:37:03 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 14:37:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Mike Magee References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin> Message-ID: <052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin> Apologies -- this was NOT meant for the list. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 5:15 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Mike Magee > Actually, Joodles, you'd have found my Phid stunningly boring. From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 10:47:26 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:47:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin> <052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin> Message-ID: <001301c5b616$9073c890$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> btw Rob I did manage to remember to send Jonathan some poems - it was by then beyond the deadline but he says no problem - just wait now to see whether DTB thinks of 'em, eh? Notice your list posts are starting to show at odd hours again - h'm. Best Dave From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 10:50:32 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:50:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin><052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin> <001301c5b616$9073c890$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <001701c5b617$010d5080$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> THAT wasn't meant for the list either, not that it would mean anything to anyone else. There must be a cold a-catching. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bircumshaw" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 3:47 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear > btw Rob I did manage to remember to send Jonathan some poems - it was by > then beyond the deadline but he says no problem - just wait now to see > whether DTB thinks of 'em, eh? > > Notice your list posts are starting to show at odd hours again - h'm. > > Best > > Dave > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 11:08:50 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 16:08:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry pole References: Message-ID: <003d01c5b619$8d227350$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> >The poetry pole in front of Bodeen's house on 15th and Bell avenues has been a place where anguish and grief are released, where love and happiness are posted for all to see and where anyone can become a "published" poet. There's no one to stop you from making your mark on the poetry pole.< Yuck! Or , considering the chance to make a mark on a pole, should one say 'woof'? Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 3:32 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry pole http://www.yakima-herald.com/page/dis/284198575177913 Published on Friday, September 9, 2005 Poetry pole yields 'Weathered Pages' By KIM NOWACKI YAKIMA HERALD-REPUBLIC The poetry pole, located on Jim Bodeen's front lawn in Yakima, is usually covered poetry and writing from members of the community. For 10 years, Jim Bodeen has been tending to a special garden. It's a place where rose bushes and literary seeds were planted long before Bodeen stuck a cedar pole in the ground, then stood back to see what would happen. The poetry pole in front of Bodeen's house on 15th and Bell avenues has been a place where anguish and grief are released, where love and happiness are posted for all to see and where anyone can become a "published" poet. There's no one to stop you from making your mark on the poetry pole. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 10 11:22:44 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 16:22:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin><052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin><001301c5b616$9073c890$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <001701c5b617$010d5080$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <056901c5b61b$7ef3db50$9e178a56@Robin> > THAT wasn't meant for the list either, not that it would mean anything to > anyone else. There must be a cold a-catching. > > Best > > Dave I blame it on white lightning. It costs the same to buy 5 litres of the stuff as to buy the Lacan Letters and Traductions. Eventually I'm going to graduate to meth and wood alkochops. Did someone mention Codliver Oil an the Orange Juice? A Sad Refugee from the SWP. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 10 11:25:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:25:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin><052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin><001301c5b616$9073c890$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <001701c5b617$010d5080$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <007001c5b61b$dc5d4740$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > THAT wasn't meant for the list either, not that it would mean anything to > anyone else. There must be a cold a-catching. > > Best > > Dave Don't apologize--yours and Robin's peronal correspondance beats Kent's and Jim's. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 10 11:59:55 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:59:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogged In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am not much of a reader of blogs, poetic or otherwise. How any of these folks have time to conduct lives and earn a living is baffling. I barely have time to read NewPo posts, yet apparently some people spend every waking hour commenting on each other's blogs, when they are not copying their blogthoughts here. Curious. I've made an effort to explore the poetry blogosphere, but my forays typically grind to a halt rapidly in the face of all the incestuous chatter. I do visit a few sites semi-regularly, usually when some interesting tidbit gets mentioned on this list or others. And there certainly are a handful of poetry bloggers (Mike Snider, to name just one) who have struck me as consistently thoughtful, interesting, open-minded. But the poetry blogworld is one I'm mostly unfamiliar with. Recent posts to this list from dedicated blog-warriers comprise a fine illustration of why that is not likely to change. One small plea, then, to those who insist on inflicting news of the blogwars on this list: could you please just send us links, and not thousands of words on every little tempest in your teapot? My filter folder is really bulging lately. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From rog3r.day at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 11:58:31 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 16:58:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear In-Reply-To: <007001c5b61b$dc5d4740$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin> <052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin> <001301c5b616$9073c890$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <001701c5b617$010d5080$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <007001c5b61b$dc5d4740$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Yes...I'm still chuckling over "joodles". Robin, try the Kestrel Super. 15% ABV, viscosity of cough syrup, tastes like, um, nothing else. Guaranteed to have you mumbling incoherently after 2 cans ;-) Gator McKluskey On 9/10/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > > THAT wasn't meant for the list either, not that it would mean anything to > > anyone else. There must be a cold a-catching. > > > > Best > > > > Dave > > Don't apologize--yours and Robin's peronal correspondance beats Kent's and > Jim's. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- http://www.badstep.net From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 10 12:10:38 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:10:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Karl Elder Message-ID: The other day I heard Karl Elder give a reading from his new book *Mead*, a collection of 26 abecedariums (or should that be abecedaria?). From Marsh River editions. They're lively poems, all over the map stylistically, and full of Berryman-esque swerves and jokes. They read aloud very well. A goodly sampling of poems from this book & others is available on Elder's home page: http://www.karlelder.com/722552.html Here's one of the abc poems: Anna Banana A. B. C. D. E. F. G. H. I. J. Bird. What's a J-Bird, anyway? How'd it come to be naked? Maybe it's a she. Does she live in a tree? A. B. C. D. E is for Eve, whose apple isn't just for her, the teacher, especially when getting her pupil's goat's more savory. Here's a little ditty: 1. 2. 3. 4. in a boy child's best prepubescent voice. Jump rope's like that. They've got you hopping, then K-I-S-S-I-N-G in a tree. Lust? Ask around. On any playground like means love. Love is yuck. Strictly for grown-ups. No respectable kid carves or draws hearts on oaks or walks if the object's not to pimp your buddy. As for girls? Few are the queens keeping to an airy castle while royalty's right ventricle's still AWOL. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow them, female and male, Jill and Jack, up, up, up the hill and back, back, back until all virtuosity they once lacked appears without warning to dance, dance away doom. X, God knows, is but one sex chromosome. Y is why it takes two to fandango. Zoom in. Zoom out. Big and small, they're human. --Karl Elder. from Mead: Twenty-six Abecedariums ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 10 12:09:22 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:09:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin><052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin><001301c5b616$9073c890$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001701c5b617$010d5080$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <007001c5b61b$dc5d4740$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <057d01c5b622$028f82b0$9e178a56@Robin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear > > THAT wasn't meant for the list either, not that it would mean anything to > > anyone else. There must be a cold a-catching. > > > > Best > > > > Dave > > Don't apologize--yours and Robin's peronal correspondance beats Kent's and > Jim's. > > --Bob G. Don't start me, Bob. I finally got the hard-copy of the Lacan Letters through the post and it's *sanitised*. Jeezus fucking wept, I thought I'd come on everything, but Kent Johnson as compromising ... I was there when the fiasco started on brit-po ... Why don't you send something to Crystal Clear? I never taught Jonathan but I taught Debs when she was age 18, and frankly writing a Phid on Djuana Barnes was only equaled by Adam Rounce deciding to write his on the metrics of 18thC minor poets. Talk about self-destruct. R. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 10 12:29:48 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:29:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] troublesome to place Addonizio In-Reply-To: <143.4c93d5ae.30539bb1@aol.com> Message-ID: When newspapers cover poetry it can be pretty condescending. And it's easy to make too much of journalistic flourishes, as when the writer is evidently unaware of the countless poets who have written fiction. But when Addonizio herself is quoted as saying the following, I did raise my eyebrows: "Poetry taught me to pay attention to language. Unfortunately, it didn't teach me anything about plot, character development and a few other things I had to figure out." Nah, there's no plot or character development in poetry! on 9/9/05 9:15 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/09.07.05/poetry-0536.html Litapalooza! Book Festival and Poetry Walk offer an embarassment of writerly riches By Jordan E. Rosenfeld Up until very recently, Bay Area scribe Kim Addonizio fit into one fairly easy to define category, that of poet. With the publication of her brand-new novel, Little Beauties (Simon & Schuster; $23), however, it may become troublesome to place Addonizio in any single category much longer. Little Beauties is the story of Diana McBride, a 34-year-old former pageant contender with obsessive compulsive disorder in not-quite-midlife crisis who meets unwilling pregnant teen Jamie Ramirez and her unborn baby, Stella, while working at a baby-clothing store. Their lives and fates become entwined and spin a tale of choices about motherhood, womanhood and destiny. Reviews reveal that what critics like about the novel is the very same thing they admire about Addonizio as a poet: her great ear for language. This comes as no surprise to Addonizio, whose inspiration for the book, an overheard conversation of a woman discussing her obsessive compulsive disorder, could have just as easily been the genesis of a poem. "Poetry is actually great training for fiction writing," she writes _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 10 12:36:50 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:36:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin><052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin><001301c5b616$9073c890$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001701c5b617$010d5080$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007001c5b61b$dc5d4740$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <058601c5b625$d90a6730$9e178a56@Robin> > Gator McKluskey Hey, I acted opposite Kate McCluskie in a performance of The Dream in Glasgow in the sixies before she made her rep as a New Historicist rad-fem. Cover name was The Fat Fairy. Are we talking about the same Dean of Women Exeter Lady? Did you ever drink in a Byers Road pub? R. From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 10 12:43:59 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:43:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Karl Elder Message-ID: I had Karl Elder come read in Freeport some years ago. I'd come to know him through Lakeland College, in Wisconsin, where I was offered a position out of graduate school (but this involved taking my family, which included a toddler and newborn at the time, to Japan for two or three years, to help coordinate Lakeland's new EFL school in Tokyo, something that just wasn't the right fit at the time). And the pay was quite a bit better at the community college position I chose instead. So here I am, in Illinois. Karl's a great guy and a good, quirky poet, as David says. I'm pretty sure he's still at Lakeland. He was Matt Henriksen's teacher, the talented young poet and co-editor of Typo magazine. Karl edits a magazine that has to be one of the longest continuously running lit mags in the US: Seems. From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 10 13:06:07 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:06:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Silliman spoof Message-ID: I just read Jim Behrle's Silliman play. It's quite good. I especially like Jordan Davis talking with magnanimous equanimity about his own poop. But it seems Jimmy is so obsessed with me that he is even shamelessly poaching now from my work! His spoof is clearly a (albeit longer) rip-off of my "The Castle of Perseverance, Or: The Interlude of Youth," which appeared months ago on the web, at the site of Jim's favorite blogger, John Latta. "The Castle..." will be appearing, revised now, with updated additions, in Adventures in Poetry Blogland. I tell ya: First I get a line of lingerie with my name as trademark, then I get a cartoon series, then I get a whole book of parodies, I even get 57,000 messages concerning me in comments boxes, and now I get plagiarized. Ron, eat your heart out. Kent From rog3r.day at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 13:12:46 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 18:12:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear In-Reply-To: <058601c5b625$d90a6730$9e178a56@Robin> References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin> <052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin> <001301c5b616$9073c890$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <001701c5b617$010d5080$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <007001c5b61b$dc5d4740$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <058601c5b625$d90a6730$9e178a56@Robin> Message-ID: On 9/10/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Gator McKluskey > > Hey, I acted opposite Kate McCluskie in a performance of The Dream in > Glasgow in the sixies before she made her rep as a New Historicist rad-fem. > > Cover name was The Fat Fairy. > > Are we talking about the same Dean of Women Exeter Lady? Not unless she starred in "White Lightning" opposite Burt Reynolds? BTW, there's a Kate McLuskie heavily on the intarweb...is that she? > Did you ever drink in a Byers Road pub? I have not. However, in my youth I did frequent the pubs of Union Street and and the bars of Santos. Not beautiful places in which to dream of poetry but as good as any. Roger -- http://www.badstep.net From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 13:50:46 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 18:50:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin><052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin><001301c5b616$9073c890$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001701c5b617$010d5080$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007001c5b61b$dc5d4740$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><058601c5b625$d90a6730$9e178a56@Robin> Message-ID: <003a01c5b630$2ccdfdf0$18e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> I thought it was the Kate McCluskie who had a minor part in 'Red Stripe Ultra - 17.5% - A Homage to Kent Johnson', starring Charles Bronson, Bette Davis, Theodore Adorno, Alan Hales Jnr, Jim Behrle's underpants, Sancho Panza and a rather wet cedar tree but my memory might be fooling me in this. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" To: "Robin Hamilton" Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear > On 9/10/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > > Gator McKluskey > > > > Hey, I acted opposite Kate McCluskie in a performance of The Dream in > > Glasgow in the sixies before she made her rep as a New Historicist rad-fem. > > > > Cover name was The Fat Fairy. > > > > Are we talking about the same Dean of Women Exeter Lady? > > Not unless she starred in "White Lightning" opposite Burt Reynolds? > BTW, there's a Kate McLuskie heavily on the intarweb...is that she? > > > Did you ever drink in a Byers Road pub? > > I have not. However, in my youth I did frequent the pubs of Union > Street and and the bars of Santos. Not beautiful places in which to > dream of poetry but as good as any. > > Roger > -- > http://www.badstep.net > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Sep 10 14:36:02 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:36:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary Narcissism and the Manufacture of Scandal Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050910133336.026f2550@mail.ilstu.edu> Ever since reading THE GREAT NAROPA POETRY WARS this summer, I have been thinking about Allen Ginsberg's alcoholism -- and how that book clearly shows that, though he would never fess up to it, Ginsberg was interested in the purposeful manufacture of Outrage, the politics of scandal and what might be called an Economy of Attention. * A Literary Narcissist's behavior will not only tolerate but encourage attacks on himself so long as it can translate his own self-fascination into more news of himself. * Just as the Narcissist will use argument, catastrophe, disputation to attract attention, certain people will be willing to dispute the Narcissist in order to participate in the economy of attention. Others will dispute the Narcissist because they are so profoundly appalled by his/her behavior. Either way, the economy of attention is fueled. * The Narcissist needs Catastrophe. The more internal crises of shame the Narcissist endures and fails to heed, the more s/he will need to create external Catastrophes. A chief and signal way a Narcissist might attract attention is to start fights: Narcissists will gravitate toward satire and caricature as a means of creating argument. The Narcissist will attempt to construe strife with health: "These arguments need to happen," etc. * The Narcissist IS fascinating -- but not for the reasons the Narcissist thinks. S/he is fascinating because the energy s/he will expend in micromanaging the self image is so profoundly exceptional. People just sort of stand there slack-jawed wondering if this person has a life. The Narcissist however will mistranslate the fascination of others as admiration. * Poetry communities will tolerate narcissism so long as it is translated into a Social Energy which others can use to strengthen and promote their projects. * Narcissism and alcoholism. Alcoholism is a systematic way to push down socially regulating emotions like shame, guilt, and embarrassment at one's own self-aggrandizing behavior. The suppression of these emotions is never successful, even in the most energetic of self-aggrandizers, and they will periodically burst upward into brief displays of remorse and convictions to change. These brief spouts of regulatory behavior are sometimes shared publicly and sometimes privately among confidants. These displays however can often easily be "re-used" by the Narcissist as a way of showing his/her authenticity and emotional fealty to the community. * The Narcissist is aware of the economy of disgust surrounding his/her behavior. S/he becomes more and more sensitive to this and consequently begins to demand private declarations of loyalty from those people whom s/he knows consider themselves friends -- even if they have said nothing publicly against the Narcissist. * The Narcissist, aware of this disgust, will create a personal mythos in which s/he will be justified and exonerated by the rewards of literary "history." The stronger the disgust of others, the greater the energy used to maintain the mythos of exoneration by history. * Narcissists are only interested in community so long as it pays dividends to their energy: they will support it if it feeds them. * The narcissist may outright demand in private that you "pay" him publicly with praise. Then he or she will publicly "repay" you with a communal mention. * In their attempt to cause others to adopt their self-fascination, Narcissists will become increasingly paranoiac, constantly searching the environment and community for news of themselves, for fealty or disloyalty. * The Literary Narcissist begins purposefully to conflate criticism of his social behavior into an indication of his/her literary worth. That is to say, the Narcissist will try to show that the reason others despise or are disgusted by him is in fact because he or she is a "Rebel," a true Literary Revolutionist -- and that the statements of disgust others publicly make at his behavior is merely an indication of (a) their necessary denial of the work because they are threatened by it, or (b) their jealousy of the work. * There comes a point -- and the point may come early -- where the community thinks to itself "teapot" and the Narcissist still hears "tempest." The truly insular narcissist (aka "the boor") will be met more and more with shunning, ignoring and silence. This will wrest the narcissist from his insularity -- such that he will begin another project designed to create Genuine Interest instead of mere scandalous attention. This project, like a new comet's head, will be followed by a long tail of manufactured scandal so as to call attention to its presence in the literary sky. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 10 14:44:41 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:44:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Psalm Message-ID: Psalm When the dove of whom there is no memory fell into the sea We were uncreated, oh yeah, we were speechless before the sky. There were no words to be sung on the water without edges. Lord had shown his preference for his serpents and his mosses. Into depths we drowned, the familial and the animal, Paired on the deck of our craft going round. Into depths we drowned and we were lost among us . . . The opened cages, our bodies starving in the sun. --Stuart Dischell. Evenings & Avenues. Penguin, 1996. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Sep 10 14:43:17 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 20:43:17 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Greenhouse Hypocrisy Message-ID: <006501c5b637$823eafd0$99af3852@ANNY> Here is my favorite columnist on the Kyoto protocol. If you think that the said document has been studied at school and has strenghtened the already rooted anti-Americanism by playing on the idealistic side of teenagers, then you can understand why I am sending this article to the list (sorry this is the journalist in me that cannot keep quiet): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/28/AR2005062801248.html By Robert J. Samuelson Wednesday, June 29, 2005; Page A21 Almost a decade ago I suggested that global warming would become a "gushing" source of political hypocrisy. So it has. Politicians and scientists constantly warn of the grim outlook, and the subject is on the agenda of the upcoming Group of Eight summit of world economic leaders. But all this sound and fury is mainly exhibitionism -- politicians pretending they're saving the planet. The truth is that, barring major technological advances, they can't (and won't) do much about global warming. It would be nice if they admitted that, though this seems unlikely. Europe is the citadel of hypocrisy. Considering Europeans' contempt for the United States and George Bush for not embracing the Kyoto Protocol, you'd expect that they would have made major reductions in greenhouse gas emissions -- the purpose of Kyoto. Well, not exactly. From 1990 (Kyoto's base year for measuring changes) to 2002, global emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2), the main greenhouse gas, increased 16.4 percent, reports the International Energy Agency. The U.S. increase was 16.7 percent, and most of Europe hasn't done much better. Here are some IEA estimates of the increases: France, 6.9 percent; Italy, 8.3 percent; Greece, 28.2 percent; Ireland, 40.3 percent; the Netherlands, 13.2 percent; Portugal, 59 percent; Spain, 46.9 percent. It's true that Germany (down 13.3 percent) and Britain (a 5.5 percent decline) have made big reductions. But their cuts had nothing to do with Kyoto. After reunification in 1990, Germany closed many inefficient coal-fired plants in eastern Germany; that was a huge one-time saving. In Britain, the government had earlier decided to shift electric utilities from coal (high CO2 emissions) to plentiful natural gas (lower CO2 emissions). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and please let me add Canada with 23.6% for those who do not want to read the entire article. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 10 14:55:18 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 19:55:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear References: <04b501c5b5be$38349130$9e178a56@Robin><052901c5b60c$bbe0ecb0$9e178a56@Robin><001301c5b616$9073c890$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001701c5b617$010d5080$f2e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007001c5b61b$dc5d4740$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><058601c5b625$d90a6730$9e178a56@Robin> <003a01c5b630$2ccdfdf0$18e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <05ee01c5b639$30e1e970$9e178a56@Robin> I think if my memory serves me, it was a different Anny-Get-Your-Gun. Lets hear it for Bettie Page, heroine of the Boy Scouts of America. And if you REALLY want to run this rat-trap sexist nonsense back to the sixties, how about Bunny Yeagar? Bobby Gentry? Donna Fargo? Geeuz a break, mate. R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bircumshaw" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear > I thought it was the Kate McCluskie who had a minor part in 'Red Stripe > Ultra - 17.5% - A Homage to Kent Johnson', starring Charles Bronson, Bette > Davis, Theodore Adorno, Alan Hales Jnr, Jim Behrle's underpants, Sancho > Panza and a rather wet cedar tree but my memory might be fooling me in this. > > Best > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Day" > To: "Robin Hamilton" > Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear > > > > On 9/10/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > > > Gator McKluskey > > > > > > Hey, I acted opposite Kate McCluskie in a performance of The Dream in > > > Glasgow in the sixies before she made her rep as a New Historicist > rad-fem. > > > > > > Cover name was The Fat Fairy. > > > > > > Are we talking about the same Dean of Women Exeter Lady? > > > > Not unless she starred in "White Lightning" opposite Burt Reynolds? > > BTW, there's a Kate McLuskie heavily on the intarweb...is that she? > > > > > Did you ever drink in a Byers Road pub? > > > > I have not. However, in my youth I did frequent the pubs of Union > > Street and and the bars of Santos. Not beautiful places in which to > > dream of poetry but as good as any. > > > > Roger > > -- > > http://www.badstep.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Sep 10 16:21:51 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:21:51 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear Message-ID: <200509101857.j8AIvntN442608@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Bobby Gentry! "FANCY" is amazing (even the watered down Reba version....) C ---------- >From: "Robin Hamilton" >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear >Date: Sat, Sep 10, 2005, 10:55 AM > > I think if my memory serves me, it was a different Anny-Get-Your-Gun. > > Lets hear it for Bettie Page, heroine of the Boy Scouts of America. > > And if you REALLY want to run this rat-trap sexist nonsense back to the > sixties, how about Bunny Yeagar? Bobby Gentry? Donna Fargo? > > Geeuz a break, mate. > > R. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Bircumshaw" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 6:50 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear > > >> I thought it was the Kate McCluskie who had a minor part in 'Red Stripe >> Ultra - 17.5% - A Homage to Kent Johnson', starring Charles Bronson, Bette >> Davis, Theodore Adorno, Alan Hales Jnr, Jim Behrle's underpants, Sancho >> Panza and a rather wet cedar tree but my memory might be fooling me in > this. >> >> Best >> >> Dave >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Roger Day" >> To: "Robin Hamilton" >> Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" >> >> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 6:12 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Crystal Clear >> >> >> > On 9/10/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> > > > Gator McKluskey >> > > >> > > Hey, I acted opposite Kate McCluskie in a performance of The Dream in >> > > Glasgow in the sixies before she made her rep as a New Historicist >> rad-fem. >> > > >> > > Cover name was The Fat Fairy. >> > > >> > > Are we talking about the same Dean of Women Exeter Lady? >> > >> > Not unless she starred in "White Lightning" opposite Burt Reynolds? >> > BTW, there's a Kate McLuskie heavily on the intarweb...is that she? >> > >> > > Did you ever drink in a Byers Road pub? >> > >> > I have not. However, in my youth I did frequent the pubs of Union >> > Street and and the bars of Santos. Not beautiful places in which to >> > dream of poetry but as good as any. >> > >> > Roger >> > -- >> > http://www.badstep.net >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 15:45:51 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:45:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] S=I=L=L=I=M=A=N Message-ID: <9cf3604505091012453661c93f@mail.gmail.com> I haven't read Kent's lame castle fantasy. So if there's overlap, I'd love to see it spelled out. He's probably just cribbing it now, ripping me off. You sorry little loser. Luv Jimmy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 16:12:37 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 16:12:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Here's Kent's Castle Message-ID: <9cf360450509101312452fe6b9@mail.gmail.com> *As it reads at Hotel Point at the moment. Where's the overlap? I've been writing Ron cartoons since October or so--that's what I based my script on. The Castle of Perseverance [Or: The Interlude of Youth]* *(Adapted from Gongora's translation of a non-surviving fragment from Plautus.)* *Ronaldus Sillimaneus* *(naked but for loin cloth, in fashion of pre-Augustan neo-Sophists):* For I would fain deny my fee, nor fail to proffer my recompense. *Johannus Mayhewneus* *(naked, as in fashion of their acolytes):* Master, your language is mysterious to me, like some far star. Yet this I know: The buttocks were created to better the learning of Latin. *RS:* Aye, Child. And the nose was made to smell the subtle odors of grammar in their secret winds. *JM:* O Master, I long to reck the rod of your hermetic clues . . . Sayest thou, perchance, that the ablative is cloaked and waiting beneath parataxis? Teach me. *RS:* Nay, never should I say it with my mouth, which surely was created to hate Speech for the sake of the Orchid, lest He have no soil in which His hairy roots to fairye spread. *JM:* "He" being the Orchid, my Master? *RS:* The Orchid. He. The Dark Gap betwixt the Sentences of Poesy. The Ultimate Mystery. The Umbrae. *JM:* O Cease! For all on Riot is my mind! I pray, Master, send me there prone, sliding like a girl-boy along your horizontal axis. Stun me at every caesura with vertical pricks of your long staff . . . *RS:* Shush, Youth. Be still. Show me thy buttocks and part wide thy mouth. *Chorus* *(The University of Pennsylvania Poetics Barbershop Quartet, wearing blank funeral masks made of onyx, repeating four times):* Anon permit the basest clouds to ride with ugly rack on his panoptic face! Hey a ho and a heidy hi ho! *JM:* I do so. *RS:* Now look at my feet. Canst thou see they were created for the sake of thunder? *JM:* Aye, for the toes are a flash and the soles make a lowing sound. *RS:* Aye, Child. And this doth excite the fairye hairs of the Orchid, as I swat thee on the buttocks . . . Dunce who abuses the vocative! *(A pair of really weird-looking twins enters stage left, stops mid-stage, and shouts in unison at Sillimaneus, who continues to spank Mayhewneus in earnest.)* *The Twins:* O what be this comedy of errors, stolen from Plautus, who stole in his turn from the great Aristophanes? What goes on here and for what Purpose? For what End, in the end, is Poesy? Answer Post-Avantist! *(They exit, shrugging their shoulders, for no one has paid them the slightest heed. Their appearance on stage is completely uncalled for and absurd, and should be played as such by the actors.)* *JM:* Hard, Master! Make me a sentence! Roll me a snow and engrave it with a Slutes Button! Make me a Puffin! *RS:* I will do so, but not with Nonsense, Bottom. For our poetry depends on it. *JM:* Depends on Nonsense, Sir? *RS:* Aye, for this is why the liver was designed. To ferret out the humours that narrative seeks to slide *(he pauses here, considering, finger on chin) * . . . to slide into the mouth and the nose under the disguise of the Orchid! *JM:* Spank me Master! *RS:* I will spank thee! *JM:* Spank me verily on the Buttocks! *RS:* Loose thy mind, Spider Boy! *JM:* I do it! *(Mayhewneus begins to speak Latin in a torrent of phrases, switching at great velocity between all manner of inflections and declensions.)* *(Fairye Voice from the wings):* Yoo Hoo! *RS:* Wot? Hello? What bird is there? *(Figure enters naked but for black bra, red garter belt, and lavender fishnet stockings. A copy of Philosophical Investigations tied to his waist by a piece of hemp covers his penis):* It is I, the Head Grammarian! *(This claim of Identity is a damnable lie, for it is plain to see [for all familiar with his various Author head shots, not to mention his films] that this is none other than the Rene Wellek Prize-winner, Amiri Baraka.)* *RS* *(throwing Mayhewneus from his knees and genuflecting extravagantly):*Great Master! *JM:* *(prostrate, his buttocks pushed high in the air)* Great Master of my Master! *Baraka:* *(raises his hand, ready to address the audience. A family of Aymara peasants in brilliant dyed finery enters stage right, strolls languidly across the stage, pulling a llama laden with a towering cargo of antique stools, chairs, tables, PC monitors, and looms. They exit left, taking their awkwardly long time, and the Head Grammarian speaks at last. As he does, his voice commences to crack with feeling. It is with difficulty that he makes it through, rhythmically smacking his hand, as he goes, against the podium he stands behind.):* . . . Aye, for the limits of our Poetry are the limits of our Grammar. And the penis is created for the sake of the bunny! For without it no fur would we have in our winter! Nor be there lairs, which are gashes in the ground, hidden betwixt gnarly roots of oldest oaks! For it is by searching that we spy their mossy holes! Nay, without the penis there should be no furry bunnies, and without bunnies there should be no mossy lairs betwixt gnarly roots! Aiieeeeee! For without such lairs there should be no holes and thus no pause betwixt the period and the following letter, which shall be in the Upper Case! Aiieeeeee! For it is in this pause that the mystery happens! Death to Dreyfus! *(He lowers his hand. Barrett Watten gallops across the stage on a Caucasian stallion, swinging a pink polo mallet at a non-existent ball, a rope tied to his saddle, the half-dead body of John Ashbery lashed to the rope, he dragged flailing and moaning behind. November grief over Nancy Smith.)* *JM:* Master of my Master! *RS:* Master who allows me to bridle my Slave! *Chorus:* Abolish Christmas! Abolish Christmas! *JM:* Spank me! Make me cry, Master! Make me your Beria! *RS:* I shall spank thee, Spider Boy. Show me thy Belly . . . *JM:* Aye, for the belly was created for [ ] *(here the fragment leaves off) * ***More I want'd, and paw'd at the box. "New Harmony" it is in th'ink-splotch. I see it now. New Harmony astride the banks of the slow-moving Wabash, inimically aloof, preternaturally muddy. Ah, New Harmony, I spent my youth there, in the fustian hideaway and cow college of M? U?, where just across the pasturage hies the Classickal Academy . . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 10 16:39:17 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:39:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Castle of Perseverance... Message-ID: It's much better in the revised and expanded version going into Adventures. This one Jim Behrle just cut and pasted was posted the day I wrote it in an alcoholic, narcissistic heat of Aristophanic fire. From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 16:46:40 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 16:46:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: <9cf3604505091013463f886b23@mail.gmail.com> Kent-- Where's the overlap, you lying jackass????? You accused me of plaguirism--where the fuck is it??? Are you also the founder of the New Sincerity, as you claimed last week? And did you create Scientology, as you claimed in that 1999 front page expose in ASSHOLE magazine??? There are millions of plays about Hamlet. You can steal my best lines if you want. Everyone knows whose is better, you sad little hack. Somebody buy Kent another julip. Luv Jimmy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 10 16:58:07 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:58:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary narcs [on Gabe Gudding's post] Message-ID: Ergo, satire and farce in literature is not a legitimate gesture, anymore... Especially in the world of post-avant poetry, where satire has [hmm] no legitimacy... Such work is dismissable as base narcissism and substance abuse, reducible to the author's contemptible person... And even when the author "tries to be serious," writes work not in the vein of satire and farce, why, we shouldn't take him or her seriously, for it's all just... well, a secondary effect of his or her narcissism and substance abuse. That pathetic Aristophanes... etc. [times a good swath of the canon...] Kent [PS, thanks to Standard Schaefer for the apropos title] From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 10 17:05:18 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 16:05:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] plaguirism Message-ID: Jim, I've been thinking for the past few weeks that you were just kidding about all this. (I have been, myself, for the most part.) But now I'm starting to get the impression that you are actually really angry! Calm down, Shakespeare! Kent PS, I mean it's no big deal: Shakespeare, whoever he was, plagiarized most of his plots, too. From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 17:12:45 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:12:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: In-Reply-To: <9cf3604505091013463f886b23@mail.gmail.com> References: <9cf3604505091013463f886b23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9cf3604505091014122715a7c4@mail.gmail.com> There is *no* plaguirism, dipstick. What a thing to joke about--like I'd steal your lame-ass jokes. You don't realize the hole you're digging yourself with me, do you old man? Spend more time re-writing your weak-ass script, jackass. On 9/10/05, Jim Behrle wrote: > > Kent-- > > Where's the overlap, you lying jackass????? You accused me of > plaguirism--where the fuck is it??? > > Are you also the founder of the New Sincerity, as you claimed last week? > And did you create Scientology, as you claimed in that 1999 front page > expose in ASSHOLE magazine??? > > There are millions of plays about Hamlet. You can steal my best lines if > you want. Everyone knows whose is better, you sad little hack. Somebody buy > Kent another julip. > > Luv > Jimmy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Sep 10 17:19:36 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:19:36 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Karl Elder References: Message-ID: <00fe01c5b64d$58d5a2a0$99af3852@ANNY> Karl ElderBoth intelligent and playful poems, thank you for sending the link and Anna Banana over, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 6:10 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Karl Elder The other day I heard Karl Elder give a reading from his new book *Mead*, a collection of 26 abecedariums (or should that be abecedaria?). From Marsh River editions. They're lively poems, all over the map stylistically, and full of Berryman-esque swerves and jokes. They read aloud very well. A goodly sampling of poems from this book & others is available on Elder's home page: http://www.karlelder.com/722552.html Here's one of the abc poems: Anna Banana A. B. C. D. E. F. G. H. I. J. Bird. What's a J-Bird, anyway? How'd it come to be naked? Maybe it's a she. Does she live in a tree? A. B. C. D. E is for Eve, whose apple isn't just for her, the teacher, especially when getting her pupil's goat's more savory. Here's a little ditty: 1. 2. 3. 4. in a boy child's best prepubescent voice. Jump rope's like that. They've got you hopping, then K-I-S-S-I-N-G in a tree. Lust? Ask around. On any playground like means love. Love is yuck. Strictly for grown-ups. No respectable kid carves or draws hearts on oaks or walks if the object's not to pimp your buddy. As for girls? Few are the queens keeping to an airy castle while royalty's right ventricle's still AWOL. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow them, female and male, Jill and Jack, up, up, up the hill and back, back, back until all virtuosity they once lacked appears without warning to dance, dance away doom. X, God knows, is but one sex chromosome. Y is why it takes two to fandango. Zoom in. Zoom out. Big and small, they're human. --Karl Elder. from Mead: Twenty-six Abecedariums ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 17:26:45 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:26:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent is a Liar Message-ID: <9cf36045050910142648918705@mail.gmail.com> Kent-- YES I'M ANGRY! IT'S COMPLETELY UNTRUE AND YOU ARE A LIAR. And you will soon be *very* angry. Luv Jimmy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 10 17:39:00 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 16:39:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] question Message-ID: Has anyone seen the movie "The Forty-Year Old Virgin"? I was going to see it tonight. I hear it's really funny. Kent From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 17:58:44 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:58:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I heard it was originally THE 50 YEAR OLD VIRGIN Message-ID: <9cf3604505091014589a66326@mail.gmail.com> And set in rural Illinois! At a *community college*! Ba dum dum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 18:03:06 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:03:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary Narcissism and the Manufacture of Scandal References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050910133336.026f2550@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <008001c5b653$6cfa2200$18e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> >Narcissism and alcoholism. Alcoholism is a systematic way to push down socially regulating emotions like shame, guilt, and embarrassment at one's own self-aggrandizing behavior. The suppression of these emotions is never successful, even in the most energetic of self-aggrandizers, and they will periodically burst upward into brief displays of remorse and convictions to change. These brief spouts of regulatory behavior are sometimes shared publicly and sometimes privately among confidants. These displays however can often easily be "re-used" by the Narcissist as a way of showing his/her authenticity and emotional fealty to the community.< This by the way but some recent studies on vervet monkeys have tended to suggest that alcoholism is a result of genetic predisposition rather than the usual kind of pseudo psychological explanations. The vervet monkey studies produce results oif the order of 20% of the creatures being averse to alcohol and 15% vulnerable to alcoholism with the remainder being 'occasional' tipplers. State interests, of course, being rather entangled with the huge excise revenue on the sales of alcoholic drinks, rather incline towards quasi-moralistic quasi-psychological explanations for alcoholism which, ultimately, all bear down upon the individual as being , willy-nilly, purely 'to blame' for the illness (for illness it is) which explanations rather conveniently deny commonality (and of course the role of the state and commerce in what in effect is legalised drug-peddling) and frame the victim in isolation. If the propensity towards alcohol addiction is genetic then the alcoholic is no more the originator of the condition than any other inheritor of a genetic feature. How to deal with condition is of course an individual's task, but the provision of support and facilty to do so is a common responsibility. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Gabriel Gudding To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 7:36 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary Narcissism and the Manufacture of Scandal Ever since reading THE GREAT NAROPA POETRY WARS this summer, I have been thinking about Allen Ginsberg's alcoholism -- and how that book clearly shows that, though he would never fess up to it, Ginsberg was interested in the purposeful manufacture of Outrage, the politics of scandal and what might be called an Economy of Attention. 1.. A Literary Narcissist's behavior will not only tolerate but encourage attacks on himself so long as it can translate his own self-fascination into more news of himself. 2.. Just as the Narcissist will use argument, catastrophe, disputation to attract attention, certain people will be willing to dispute the Narcissist in order to participate in the economy of attention. Others will dispute the Narcissist because they are so profoundly appalled by his/her behavior. Either way, the economy of attention is fueled. 3.. The Narcissist needs Catastrophe. The more internal crises of shame the Narcissist endures and fails to heed, the more s/he will need to create external Catastrophes. A chief and signal way a Narcissist might attract attention is to start fights: Narcissists will gravitate toward satire and caricature as a means of creating argument. The Narcissist will attempt to construe strife with health: "These arguments need to happen," etc. 4.. The Narcissist IS fascinating -- but not for the reasons the Narcissist thinks. S/he is fascinating because the energy s/he will expend in micromanaging the self image is so profoundly exceptional. People just sort of stand there slack-jawed wondering if this person has a life. The Narcissist however will mistranslate the fascination of others as admiration. 5.. Poetry communities will tolerate narcissism so long as it is translated into a Social Energy which others can use to strengthen and promote their projects. 6.. Narcissism and alcoholism. Alcoholism is a systematic way to push down socially regulating emotions like shame, guilt, and embarrassment at one's own self-aggrandizing behavior. The suppression of these emotions is never successful, even in the most energetic of self-aggrandizers, and they will periodically burst upward into brief displays of remorse and convictions to change. These brief spouts of regulatory behavior are sometimes shared publicly and sometimes privately among confidants. These displays however can often easily be "re-used" by the Narcissist as a way of showing his/her authenticity and emotional fealty to the community. 7.. The Narcissist is aware of the economy of disgust surrounding his/her behavior. S/he becomes more and more sensitive to this and consequently begins to demand private declarations of loyalty from those people whom s/he knows consider themselves friends -- even if they have said nothing publicly against the Narcissist. 8.. The Narcissist, aware of this disgust, will create a personal mythos in which s/he will be justified and exonerated by the rewards of literary "history." The stronger the disgust of others, the greater the energy used to maintain the mythos of exoneration by history. 9.. Narcissists are only interested in community so long as it pays dividends to their energy: they will support it if it feeds them. 10.. The narcissist may outright demand in private that you "pay" him publicly with praise. Then he or she will publicly "repay" you with a communal mention. 11.. In their attempt to cause others to adopt their self-fascination, Narcissists will become increasingly paranoiac, constantly searching the environment and community for news of themselves, for fealty or disloyalty. 12.. The Literary Narcissist begins purposefully to conflate criticism of his social behavior into an indication of his/her literary worth. That is to say, the Narcissist will try to show that the reason others despise or are disgusted by him is in fact because he or she is a "Rebel," a true Literary Revolutionist -- and that the statements of disgust others publicly make at his behavior is merely an indication of (a) their necessary denial of the work because they are threatened by it, or (b) their jealousy of the work. 13.. There comes a point -- and the point may come early -- where the community thinks to itself "teapot" and the Narcissist still hears "tempest." The truly insular narcissist (aka "the boor") will be met more and more with shunning, ignoring and silence. This will wrest the narcissist from his insularity -- such that he will begin another project designed to create Genuine Interest instead of mere scandalous attention. This project, like a new comet's head, will be followed by a long tail of manufactured scandal so as to call attention to its presence in the literary sky. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 18:06:56 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:06:56 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Regarding a note from Michael Magee References: <003401c5b5a3$ff17e560$20e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <001a01c5b5f3$2b100e00$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009401c5b653$f5c69460$18e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> > Yeah, I'm beginning to think Behrle is another of Kent's personae. He was > amusing at first, but now he's almost as boring as Kent. Oh, well, anything > is better than me and you know who on poetics. > > --Bob G. That's a really horrifying thought, Bob. best Dave From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 10 18:09:48 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:09:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: References: <9cf3604505091013463f886b23@mail.gmail.com> <9cf3604505091014122715a7c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <068701c5b654$5cf0a4f0$9e178a56@Robin> Get real, you sad little loser. R. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Behrle To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 10:12 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: There is *no* plaguirism, dipstick. What a thing to joke about--like I'd steal your lame-ass jokes. You don't realize the hole you're digging yourself with me, do you old man? Spend more time re-writing your weak-ass script, jackass. On 9/10/05, Jim Behrle wrote: Kent-- Where's the overlap, you lying jackass????? You accused me of plaguirism--where the fuck is it??? Are you also the founder of the New Sincerity, as you claimed last week? And did you create Scientology, as you claimed in that 1999 front page expose in ASSHOLE magazine??? There are millions of plays about Hamlet. You can steal my best lines if you want. Everyone knows whose is better, you sad little hack. Somebody buy Kent another julip. Luv Jimmy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 18:19:56 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 18:19:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: In-Reply-To: <9cf3604505091015114cfb0359@mail.gmail.com> References: <9cf3604505091013463f886b23@mail.gmail.com> <9cf3604505091014122715a7c4@mail.gmail.com> <068701c5b654$5cf0a4f0$9e178a56@Robin> <9cf3604505091015114cfb0359@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9cf3604505091015197b473ec3@mail.gmail.com> THIS JUST IN: Robin Hamilton spelled backwards is I AM ALSO REALLY KENT. Wait a minute...did I carry the one? Luv Jimmy On 9/10/05, Jim Behrle wrote: > > ?? > > You're probably just another Kent anyway > > On 9/10/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > > > Get real, you sad little loser. > > R. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Jim Behrle > > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 10, 2005 10:12 PM > > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Re: > > > > There is *no* plaguirism, dipstick. What a thing to joke about--like I'd > > steal your lame-ass jokes. You don't realize the hole you're digging > > yourself with me, do you old man? Spend more time re-writing your weak-ass > > script, jackass. > > > > On 9/10/05, Jim Behrle wrote: > > > > > > Kent-- > > > > > > Where's the overlap, you lying jackass????? You accused me of > > > plaguirism--where the fuck is it??? > > > > > > Are you also the founder of the New Sincerity, as you claimed last > > > week? And did you create Scientology, as you claimed in that 1999 front page > > > expose in ASSHOLE magazine??? > > > > > > There are millions of plays about Hamlet. You can steal my best lines > > > if you want. Everyone knows whose is better, you sad little hack. Somebody > > > buy Kent another julip. > > > > > > Luv > > > Jimmy > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Sep 10 18:53:20 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:53:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the fifty year old virgin Message-ID: Jim, I really wasn't referring to you. But your post, I have to admit, is pretty funny and clever! Kent, who lost his virginity two years ago From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Sep 10 19:18:49 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 19:18:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] troublesome to place Addonizio Message-ID: <1f6.11cf7eb5.3054c3d9@cs.com> In a message dated 9/10/2005 11:27:44 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > When newspapers cover poetry it can be pretty condescending. And it's easy > to make too much of journalistic flourishes, as when the writer is evidently > unaware of the countless poets who have written fiction. But when Addonizio > herself is quoted as saying the following, I did raise my eyebrows: > > "Poetry taught me to pay attention to language. Unfortunately, it didn't > teach me anything about plot, character development and a few other things I had > to figure out." > > Nah, there's no plot or character development in poetry! > Kim did write a verse novel, but I haven't read it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Sat Sep 10 20:39:49 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 08:39:49 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] K=E=N=T In-Reply-To: <200509101600.j8AG06M3024534@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200509101600.j8AG06M3024534@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: My MAN! What was that song by Aretha Franklin? "At LAST!" Let the observant Reader note: Mr. Grumman, Mr. Behrle, Mr. Dillon: utterly different but not indifferent to the sin of SYCHOPHANCY. Bly denounced the Star System, as he called it, at JKIDP Naropa, led by a Sandinistan antiAmerican Bennington College alumna Aries bigMouth NY Dean-like egomaniac. Same crowd, new generation. They refused to let Bronk be read at the Boston Alternative Poetry Conference some years ago, demanding because "they" were there that O'Hara be read. Refused to memorialize Bronk, and Bronk had just DIED! HaHa. As Jimmy Hatlo used to say in a better time of USA life: "A tip of the cap! And, a fine and dandy to you, Sirrah! HooRah!" R i c h a r d D i l l o n ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 08:21:27 -0400 From: Jim Behrle Subject: [New-Poetry] K=E=N=T To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Message-ID: <9cf3604505091005215105cac7 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" from me, from the Blazevox blaze: "Hey, man--anybody publishing Kent, anybody going to one of his readings, anybody reading with Kent, anybody letting him borrow a quarter for the phone: all of those people are in play. Why anyone would dedicate one page of any chapbook to this pathetic creature, ~shrug~. But anyone having anything to do with Kent for as long as he lives crosses my line and enters my radar. A friend of Kent Johnson's is no friend of poetry...." Let's add to that anyone responding to one of his daily [New-Poetry] look-at-me's!!! All you big time poets MUST have something better to do then rollover every time Kent needs his tummy rubbed, right? Because this isn't a list of bored poetry nobodies! This is where my atoms smash against your atoms and turn into PURE BEAUTY! We'll see you in the cartoons! PURE BEAUTY! Luv Jimmy Behrle -- From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 00:33:20 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 00:33:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Little More to Bore!! Message-ID: <9cf3604505091021335fa64d74@mail.gmail.com> Hallo List-- Never called Kent's boss, never threatened a lawsuit. Kent's comic starts up on Monday and goes some seriously fucked up places. I did them before all this Lucipo/New-Poetics bullshit today: they respond to Kent's Yasusada chest-beating, so I hope that's still timely. Kent should think about why Gabe sent me that piece: Gabe's pulled a Jimmy Carter a couple of times between Johnson & Behrle in the past. Gabe knows I'm struggling to be a better person and make better decisions. And, fuck, read the piece, Gabe is smart. It made me think. I know this isn't what poetry's *about*. I know I am struggling with my anger in the wake of my decision to stop drinking 2 and a 1/2 years ago. And I apologize for my end of it here. Luv Jimmy PS: 40 YEAR OLD VIRGIN is a solid 3.5 stars--sweet and very funny, if anyone's asking. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sun Sep 11 00:36:59 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:36:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] On Gabe Gudding's Literary Narcissism Message-ID: [posted earlier to another list, but since Gabe's piece was posted here...] Gabe Gudding said: >Kent, please don't put words in my mouth. My post was not questioning the legitimacy of satire or farce. It was a post about self-aggrandizement. It was not about literary product but about the process and the writer.... My post was about the psychology of the writer and his or her relation to writing communities. * I'm sorry if I "misinterpreted" you, Gabe. Maybe it's the allegorical shadow-play that is throwing me off. Actually, my reply to Kasey at BlazeVox, is all about, as you say, "the psychology of the writer and his or her relation to writing communities." Since the posting of that there has been a message from Mike Magee, which you might find interesting and partly relevant to yours of today. http://www.blazevox.org/blog/ I want to say, first, that I agree with some of what you say. I know that you have struggled yourself with a lot of what you describe in your post (remember those days at Poetics!), and I, for one, applaud what has been your candor. But I disagree with how you try to reduce what are usually very overdetermined collective dynamics down to the behavior of this or that "self-aggrandizing" individual. It's tempting to do that, makes for clear and satisfying ethical position-taking, happens all the time, and I can understand the temptation to do so, having done it myself--to point suggestive fingers and try to marginalize certain individuals in the name of that ever-shifting and conveniently fuzzy term "community." I mean, blame and marginalization are active elements of those collective dynamics, too. But part of the problem, as I see this, is that your allegorical arras is faulty: Trungpa was the leader of a religious cult, for example, invested with power and unquestioned authority, an authority he abused, clearly. Sometimes in literary formations a figure or two can assume a position where it's possible to somewhat indentify him/her as source-piston of animus and even harm. Ginsberg to some extent, maybe... Pound, in ways, to mentione your examples. Spicer (an alcoholic) was another. Duncan (not an alcoholic) another. There are better and more recent ones, I think. There are lots of them throughout poetry. I'd wager that a high percentage of "major" poets have *some* relation to the kinds of personal behaviors you outline. But in our post-avant poetic field, at present, which obviously is what you are really talking about behind your little Naropa-tropic facade, things aren't so neatly arranged as they were in Boulder. When there are, as now, focused confrontations, fights, contests of will, what-have-you (which often take on the form, as you know, of biting parody and satire) it is not necessarily such an easy task to find the source of "guilt" or the "narcissist" who is guiltiest of feeding the flames, as it were. As I said, a situation can be very overdetermined, involve real history, real pain, a past of different "political" conjunctures, all of which can get drained like through a funnel, into a present volatile flare-up. It all *can*, I believe, be much more complicated and ideological than your (quite elegant) psycho-crit manifesto would have it. And it can be such, even when accusations of "delusion," "paranoia," "self-aggrandizement," and so forth are being thrown around as polemical Bowie-knives to try to kill the "enemy." (Just as a related aside: Your memo strikes me as somewhat disingenuous (because I know you know better) in the following way: You seem to posit some kind of State of Innocence, some kind of peaceable Community of Poetry that gets mucked up periodically by one or a few manipulative narcissists. But the field of poetry has always been, to important extent, about contest, about self-promotion (which you, for one, Gabe, expertly practice, albeit in perhaps more euphemized, but no less effective ways than you used to)... There's not a whit wrong with it and there are ten thousand ways of doing it. It's what the history of poetry is largely about and how the history of poetry unfolds. In fact, I would argue (hardly a novel position, here) that this is part of the nature of poetry itself, *as practice*, which thrives on elements of narcissism and self-centered competition. Any poet (or blogger!) who denies that there is not some of that in her or him is just not being honest.) Of course, in such situations like the localized present one that has brought on your precis (I like that word, I realize I've used it twice today, but I've never used it before), different people will always have their favorite punching bags, their "narcissists," their "paranoids," their examples of people who "use" others for their own "self-aggrandizement," who are "toxic," and "destructive," so on. But it might be, to go back to this rather obvious matter of a permanent, overdetermined "complexity," that there are often poetic actors who suffered actual attacks in the past, suffered them not for what they "did" as persons, even, but mainly for the work they were engaged in, which-- for whatever reasons might be in operation--caused resentments amongst other actors. In these cases, "confrontational" engagements by those who perceive to have been aggrieved might be (it's worth considering the possibility, at least) not so much acts of revenge or spite or self-aggrandizement (though it could be partly that, as well), as they are attempts to rearrange what those actors perceive to be an unbalanced and *unhealthy* cultural space. Sometimes they may be wrong, suffering from delusion; other times, there may well be something to what they see and feel. In other words, what you reduce to concept of "narcissism," may be a kind of self-conscious strategy of fighting back in defense of one's work and reputation. In poetry, not only individuals do this, but groups too. (In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say this: Even with all its inner community, Lucipo as a group is engaged in traits of such agonistic positioning in the broader literary field. Of course! And I suspect that some of the ideas afoot for extending that will be quite brilliantly aggressive and subversive of the comfort zones of other communities...) It's understandable that those getting a "taste of their own medicine" in situations like the one I sketched above (along with those who see their best interests as staying in good graces of those now getting a bit of their own--and here, let's be clear: in poetry as in politics, there will be all sorts of unforseen, dishonest, and opportunistic accomodations) will try to accuse their antagonist(s) of paranoia, self-promotion, and all sorts of other things, even including (its been known to happen) substance abuse. And this is not to say, as I've said, that the person suffering those accusations doesn't suffer from some of those qualities or problems. But it is a good idea to not get into the Narcissisistic Individual as Explicator of Literary History too much, I'd suggest, lest one lose site of certain key vectors and dynamics it is sometimes inconvenient or impolite to talk about. There is Bourdieu, for instance (not that I'm an expert!), who offers a somewhat more nuanced and challenging analysis of cultural conflict than your own, I feel. Perhaps you might agree. Which isn't to say, again, that there is no validity to some of what you say. I still would like you, Gabe, to give a response to my earlier post titled "To Lucipo: (Gabe & Jim)." Will you? Thank you. Kent From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Sep 11 02:17:29 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 22:17:29 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] On Gabe Gudding's Literary Narcissism Message-ID: <200509110453.j8B4rRHR069772@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Anybody interested in my take on some of these dynamics (which K & G so astutely debate "while fishermen throw flowers?") as endemic to what some call the "founding moment" in the history of English LYRIC poetry might want to take a look at a poem-essay-like piece I wrote called "Behind The Hymn" which takes as its starting point the "STORY BEHIND" "Caedmon's Hymn" (which I've always found WAY more interesting than the poem itself). I know it's in my chapbook "Scratch vocals" (Potato Clock Editions, 2003), but it might be on the web somewhere too....could always google it....Oh, it's on a video tape available from SFSU POETRY ARCHIVES...that's the only official place I guess... It was "too long" for most print mags; I should send it to "on line" places.... Chrs ---------- >From: "Kent Johnson" >To: >Subject: [New-Poetry] On Gabe Gudding's Literary Narcissism >Date: Sat, Sep 10, 2005, 8:36 PM > > [posted earlier to another list, but since Gabe's piece was posted > here...] > > Gabe Gudding said: > >>Kent, please don't put words in my mouth. My post was not questioning > the legitimacy of satire or farce. It was a post about > self-aggrandizement. It was not about literary product but about the > process and the writer.... My post was about the psychology of the > writer and his or her relation to writing communities. > > * > > I'm sorry if I "misinterpreted" you, Gabe. Maybe it's the allegorical > shadow-play that is throwing me off. > > Actually, my reply to Kasey at BlazeVox, is all about, as you say, "the > psychology of the writer and his or her relation to writing > communities." Since the posting of that there has been a message from > Mike Magee, which you might find interesting and partly relevant to > yours of today. > http://www.blazevox.org/blog/ > > I want to say, first, that I agree with some of what you say. I know > that you have struggled yourself with a lot of what you describe in your > post (remember those days at Poetics!), and I, for one, applaud what has > been your candor. > > But I disagree with how you try to reduce what are usually very > overdetermined collective dynamics down to the behavior of this or that > "self-aggrandizing" individual. It's tempting to do that, makes for > clear and satisfying ethical position-taking, happens all the time, and > I can understand the temptation to do so, having done it myself--to > point suggestive fingers and try to marginalize certain individuals in > the name of that ever-shifting and conveniently fuzzy term "community." > I mean, blame and marginalization are active elements of those > collective dynamics, too. > > But part of the problem, as I see this, is that your allegorical arras > is faulty: Trungpa was the leader of a religious cult, for example, > invested with power and unquestioned authority, an authority he abused, > clearly. Sometimes in literary formations a figure or two can assume a > position where it's possible to somewhat indentify him/her as > source-piston of animus and even harm. Ginsberg to some extent, maybe... > Pound, in ways, to mentione your examples. Spicer (an alcoholic) was > another. Duncan (not an alcoholic) another. There are better and more > recent ones, I think. There are lots of them throughout poetry. I'd > wager that a high percentage of "major" poets have *some* relation to > the kinds of personal behaviors you outline. > > But in our post-avant poetic field, at present, which obviously is what > you are really talking about behind your little Naropa-tropic facade, > things aren't so neatly arranged as they were in Boulder. When there > are, as now, focused confrontations, fights, contests of will, > what-have-you (which often take on the form, as you know, of biting > parody and satire) it is not necessarily such an easy task to find the > source of "guilt" or the "narcissist" who is guiltiest of feeding the > flames, as it were. As I said, a situation can be very overdetermined, > involve real history, real pain, a past of different "political" > conjunctures, all of which can get drained like through a funnel, into a > present volatile flare-up. It all *can*, I believe, be much more > complicated and ideological than your (quite elegant) psycho-crit > manifesto would have it. And it can be such, even when accusations of > "delusion," "paranoia," "self-aggrandizement," and so forth are being > thrown around as polemical Bowie-knives to try to kill the "enemy." > > (Just as a related aside: Your memo strikes me as somewhat disingenuous > (because I know you know better) in the following way: You seem to posit > some kind of State of Innocence, some kind of peaceable Community of > Poetry that gets mucked up periodically by one or a few manipulative > narcissists. But the field of poetry has always been, to important > extent, about contest, about self-promotion (which you, for one, Gabe, > expertly practice, albeit in perhaps more euphemized, but no less > effective ways than you used to)... There's not a whit wrong with it and > there are ten thousand ways of doing it. It's what the history of poetry > is largely about and how the history of poetry unfolds. In fact, I would > argue (hardly a novel position, here) that this is part of the nature of > poetry itself, *as practice*, which thrives on elements of narcissism > and self-centered competition. Any poet (or blogger!) who denies that > there is not some of that in her or him is just not being honest.) > > Of course, in such situations like the localized present one that has > brought on your precis (I like that word, I realize I've used it twice > today, but I've never used it before), different people will always have > their favorite punching bags, their "narcissists," their "paranoids," > their examples of people who "use" others for their own > "self-aggrandizement," who are "toxic," and "destructive," so on. But it > might be, to go back to this rather obvious matter of a permanent, > overdetermined "complexity," that there are often poetic actors who > suffered actual attacks in the past, suffered them not for what they > "did" as persons, even, but mainly for the work they were engaged in, > which-- for whatever reasons might be in operation--caused resentments > amongst other actors. In these cases, "confrontational" engagements by > those who perceive to have been aggrieved might be (it's worth > considering the possibility, at least) not so much acts of revenge or > spite or self-aggrandizement (though it could be partly that, as well), > as they are attempts to rearrange what those actors perceive to be an > unbalanced and *unhealthy* cultural space. Sometimes they may be wrong, > suffering from delusion; other times, there may well be something to > what they see and feel. In other words, what you reduce to concept of > "narcissism," may be a kind of self-conscious strategy of fighting back > in defense of one's work and reputation. In poetry, not only individuals > do this, but groups too. (In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say this: > Even with all its inner community, Lucipo as a group is engaged in > traits of such agonistic positioning in the broader literary field. Of > course! And I suspect that some of the ideas afoot for extending that > will be quite brilliantly aggressive and subversive of the comfort zones > of other communities...) > > It's understandable that those getting a "taste of their own medicine" > in situations like the one I sketched above (along with those who see > their best interests as staying in good graces of those now getting a > bit of their own--and here, let's be clear: in poetry as in politics, > there will be all sorts of unforseen, dishonest, and opportunistic > accomodations) will try to accuse their antagonist(s) of paranoia, > self-promotion, and all sorts of other things, even including (its been > known to happen) substance abuse. And this is not to say, as I've said, > that the person suffering those accusations doesn't suffer from some of > those qualities or problems. But it is a good idea to not get into the > Narcissisistic Individual as Explicator of Literary History too much, > I'd suggest, lest one lose site of certain key vectors and dynamics it > is sometimes inconvenient or impolite to talk about. > > There is Bourdieu, for instance (not that I'm an expert!), who offers a > somewhat more nuanced and challenging analysis of cultural conflict than > your own, I feel. Perhaps you might agree. Which isn't to say, again, > that there is no validity to some of what you say. > > I still would like you, Gabe, to give a response to my earlier post > titled "To Lucipo: (Gabe & Jim)." Will you? > Thank you. > > Kent > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From antrobin at clipper.net Sun Sep 11 00:59:43 2005 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 21:59:43 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Little More to Bore!! In-Reply-To: <9cf3604505091021335fa64d74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <021d01c5b68d$a66136c0$26301c40@Emily> Yeah, what Jimmy said about the 40 Year-Old Virgin. Funny, sweet, good movie. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Behrle Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 9:33 PM To: lucipo at lists.ibiblio.org; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] A Little More to Bore!! Hallo List-- Never called Kent's boss, never threatened a lawsuit. Kent's comic starts up on Monday and goes some seriously fucked up places. I did them before all this Lucipo/New-Poetics bullshit today: they respond to Kent's Yasusada chest-beating, so I hope that's still timely. Kent should think about why Gabe sent me that piece: Gabe's pulled a Jimmy Carter a couple of times between Johnson & Behrle in the past. Gabe knows I'm struggling to be a better person and make better decisions. And, fuck, read the piece, Gabe is smart. It made me think. I know this isn't what poetry's *about*. I know I am struggling with my anger in the wake of my decision to stop drinking 2 and a 1/2 years ago. And I apologize for my end of it here. Luv Jimmy PS: 40 YEAR OLD VIRGIN is a solid 3.5 stars--sweet and very funny, if anyone's asking. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Sep 11 02:23:58 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 22:23:58 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] On Gabe Gudding's Literary Narcissism Message-ID: <200509110459.j8B4xuSN052662@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Oh, I think it was in Mike Magee's COMBO too (even though that didn't come up on a Google search....) ---------- >From: "Chris Stroffolino " >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] On Gabe Gudding's Literary Narcissism >Date: Sat, Sep 10, 2005, 10:17 PM > > Anybody interested in my take on some of these dynamics > (which K & G so astutely debate "while fishermen throw flowers?") > > as endemic to what some call the "founding moment" in the history of > English LYRIC poetry might want to take a look at a poem-essay-like > piece I wrote called "Behind The Hymn" which takes as its starting point the > "STORY BEHIND" "Caedmon's Hymn" (which I've always found WAY more > interesting than the poem itself). I know it's in my chapbook "Scratch > vocals" (Potato Clock Editions, 2003), but it might be on the web somewhere > too....could always google it....Oh, it's on a video tape available from > SFSU POETRY ARCHIVES...that's the only official place I guess... > It was "too long" for most print mags; I should send it to "on line" > places.... > > Chrs > > > ---------- >>From: "Kent Johnson" >>To: >>Subject: [New-Poetry] On Gabe Gudding's Literary Narcissism >>Date: Sat, Sep 10, 2005, 8:36 PM >> > >> [posted earlier to another list, but since Gabe's piece was posted >> here...] >> >> Gabe Gudding said: >> >>>Kent, please don't put words in my mouth. My post was not questioning >> the legitimacy of satire or farce. It was a post about >> self-aggrandizement. It was not about literary product but about the >> process and the writer.... My post was about the psychology of the >> writer and his or her relation to writing communities. >> >> * >> >> I'm sorry if I "misinterpreted" you, Gabe. Maybe it's the allegorical >> shadow-play that is throwing me off. >> >> Actually, my reply to Kasey at BlazeVox, is all about, as you say, "the >> psychology of the writer and his or her relation to writing >> communities." Since the posting of that there has been a message from >> Mike Magee, which you might find interesting and partly relevant to >> yours of today. >> http://www.blazevox.org/blog/ >> >> I want to say, first, that I agree with some of what you say. I know >> that you have struggled yourself with a lot of what you describe in your >> post (remember those days at Poetics!), and I, for one, applaud what has >> been your candor. >> >> But I disagree with how you try to reduce what are usually very >> overdetermined collective dynamics down to the behavior of this or that >> "self-aggrandizing" individual. It's tempting to do that, makes for >> clear and satisfying ethical position-taking, happens all the time, and >> I can understand the temptation to do so, having done it myself--to >> point suggestive fingers and try to marginalize certain individuals in >> the name of that ever-shifting and conveniently fuzzy term "community." >> I mean, blame and marginalization are active elements of those >> collective dynamics, too. >> >> But part of the problem, as I see this, is that your allegorical arras >> is faulty: Trungpa was the leader of a religious cult, for example, >> invested with power and unquestioned authority, an authority he abused, >> clearly. Sometimes in literary formations a figure or two can assume a >> position where it's possible to somewhat indentify him/her as >> source-piston of animus and even harm. Ginsberg to some extent, maybe... >> Pound, in ways, to mentione your examples. Spicer (an alcoholic) was >> another. Duncan (not an alcoholic) another. There are better and more >> recent ones, I think. There are lots of them throughout poetry. I'd >> wager that a high percentage of "major" poets have *some* relation to >> the kinds of personal behaviors you outline. >> >> But in our post-avant poetic field, at present, which obviously is what >> you are really talking about behind your little Naropa-tropic facade, >> things aren't so neatly arranged as they were in Boulder. When there >> are, as now, focused confrontations, fights, contests of will, >> what-have-you (which often take on the form, as you know, of biting >> parody and satire) it is not necessarily such an easy task to find the >> source of "guilt" or the "narcissist" who is guiltiest of feeding the >> flames, as it were. As I said, a situation can be very overdetermined, >> involve real history, real pain, a past of different "political" >> conjunctures, all of which can get drained like through a funnel, into a >> present volatile flare-up. It all *can*, I believe, be much more >> complicated and ideological than your (quite elegant) psycho-crit >> manifesto would have it. And it can be such, even when accusations of >> "delusion," "paranoia," "self-aggrandizement," and so forth are being >> thrown around as polemical Bowie-knives to try to kill the "enemy." >> >> (Just as a related aside: Your memo strikes me as somewhat disingenuous >> (because I know you know better) in the following way: You seem to posit >> some kind of State of Innocence, some kind of peaceable Community of >> Poetry that gets mucked up periodically by one or a few manipulative >> narcissists. But the field of poetry has always been, to important >> extent, about contest, about self-promotion (which you, for one, Gabe, >> expertly practice, albeit in perhaps more euphemized, but no less >> effective ways than you used to)... There's not a whit wrong with it and >> there are ten thousand ways of doing it. It's what the history of poetry >> is largely about and how the history of poetry unfolds. In fact, I would >> argue (hardly a novel position, here) that this is part of the nature of >> poetry itself, *as practice*, which thrives on elements of narcissism >> and self-centered competition. Any poet (or blogger!) who denies that >> there is not some of that in her or him is just not being honest.) >> >> Of course, in such situations like the localized present one that has >> brought on your precis (I like that word, I realize I've used it twice >> today, but I've never used it before), different people will always have >> their favorite punching bags, their "narcissists," their "paranoids," >> their examples of people who "use" others for their own >> "self-aggrandizement," who are "toxic," and "destructive," so on. But it >> might be, to go back to this rather obvious matter of a permanent, >> overdetermined "complexity," that there are often poetic actors who >> suffered actual attacks in the past, suffered them not for what they >> "did" as persons, even, but mainly for the work they were engaged in, >> which-- for whatever reasons might be in operation--caused resentments >> amongst other actors. In these cases, "confrontational" engagements by >> those who perceive to have been aggrieved might be (it's worth >> considering the possibility, at least) not so much acts of revenge or >> spite or self-aggrandizement (though it could be partly that, as well), >> as they are attempts to rearrange what those actors perceive to be an >> unbalanced and *unhealthy* cultural space. Sometimes they may be wrong, >> suffering from delusion; other times, there may well be something to >> what they see and feel. In other words, what you reduce to concept of >> "narcissism," may be a kind of self-conscious strategy of fighting back >> in defense of one's work and reputation. In poetry, not only individuals >> do this, but groups too. (In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say this: >> Even with all its inner community, Lucipo as a group is engaged in >> traits of such agonistic positioning in the broader literary field. Of >> course! And I suspect that some of the ideas afoot for extending that >> will be quite brilliantly aggressive and subversive of the comfort zones >> of other communities...) >> >> It's understandable that those getting a "taste of their own medicine" >> in situations like the one I sketched above (along with those who see >> their best interests as staying in good graces of those now getting a >> bit of their own--and here, let's be clear: in poetry as in politics, >> there will be all sorts of unforseen, dishonest, and opportunistic >> accomodations) will try to accuse their antagonist(s) of paranoia, >> self-promotion, and all sorts of other things, even including (its been >> known to happen) substance abuse. And this is not to say, as I've said, >> that the person suffering those accusations doesn't suffer from some of >> those qualities or problems. But it is a good idea to not get into the >> Narcissisistic Individual as Explicator of Literary History too much, >> I'd suggest, lest one lose site of certain key vectors and dynamics it >> is sometimes inconvenient or impolite to talk about. >> >> There is Bourdieu, for instance (not that I'm an expert!), who offers a >> somewhat more nuanced and challenging analysis of cultural conflict than >> your own, I feel. Perhaps you might agree. Which isn't to say, again, >> that there is no validity to some of what you say. >> >> I still would like you, Gabe, to give a response to my earlier post >> titled "To Lucipo: (Gabe & Jim)." Will you? >> Thank you. >> >> Kent >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Sep 11 03:37:21 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 09:37:21 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Merton References: <200509110459.j8B4xuSN052662@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <005001c5b6a3$a5508810$d7aa3852@ANNY> Ann Fisher-Wirth sent this message to the WOM-PO list some time ago, I am forwarding it here: THOMAS MERTON REFLECTION for the week of September 5, 2005 "Where there is a deep, simple, all-embracing love of man, of the created world of living and inanimate things, then there will be respect for life, for freedom, for truth, for justice and there will be humble love of God. But where there is no love of man, no love of life, then make all the laws you want, all the edicts and treaties, issue all the anathemas; set up all the safeguards and inspections, fill the air with spying satellites, and hang cameras on the moon. As long as you see your fellow man being essentially to be feared, mistrusted, hated, and destroyed, there cannot be peace on earth. And who knows if fear alone will suffice to prevent a war of total destruction?" From Seeds of Destruction by Thomas Merton (New York: Farrar, Straus, and Giroux, 1964), p.183 Please note: If you did not receive this email from the Thomas Merton Foundation and you would like subscribe to our weekly reflection email list please click on this link! http://www.mertonfoundation.org/merton.php3?page=guestbook .ext Thank you! If you would like to comment on this quote or share your "Merton" story please reply to this email at rtoth at mertonfoundation.org To Unsubscribe: If you no longer want to receive this weekly reflection reply to this email with a note to remove you from the list. Robert G. Toth Executive Director Thomas Merton Foundation 2117 Payne Street Louisville, KY 40206 (502)899-1957 rtoth at mertonfoundation.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sun Sep 11 03:59:18 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 02:59:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Merton In-Reply-To: <005001c5b6a3$a5508810$d7aa3852@ANNY> References: <200509110459.j8B4xuSN052662@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> <005001c5b6a3$a5508810$d7aa3852@ANNY> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050911024503.02865e10@mail.ilstu.edu> In November 2004 I was in Louisville, Kentucky. I walked by a National Registry plaque on the corner of 4th and Muhammad Ali Boulevard, commemorating the spot where Merton had a revelation of love and awe and the conviction that he must give his life fully to social justice if he was fully to love God. He wrote in his journal about the moment, "In Louisville, on the corner of 4th and [then] Walnut, in the center of the shopping district, I was suddenly overwhelmed with the realization that I loved all these people, that they were mine and I was theirs...There is no way of telling people that they are walking around shining like the sun." It is the only National Registry plaque that I know of which commemorates a revelation of transcendent love. Fitting you should send it to us today, Anny. Bless you. Gabe At 02:37 AM 9/11/2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: >Ann Fisher-Wirth sent this message to the WOM-PO list some time ago, I am >forwarding it here: > >> >> >>THOMAS MERTON REFLECTION for the week of September 5, 2005 >> >> >> >> >> >> >>"Where there is a deep, simple, all-embracing love of man, of the created >>world of living and inanimate things, then there will be respect for >>life, for freedom, for truth, for justice and there will be humble love >>of God. But where there is no love of man, no love of life, then make >>all the laws you want, all the edicts and treaties, issue all the >>anathemas; set up all the safeguards and inspections, fill the air with >>spying satellites, and hang cameras on the moon. As long as you see your >>fellow man being essentially to be feared, mistrusted, hated, and >>destroyed, there cannot be peace on earth. And who knows if fear alone >>will suffice to prevent a war of total destruction?" >> >> From Seeds of >> Destruction by Thomas Merton >> (New York: Farrar, >> Straus, and Giroux, 1964), p.183 >> >> >> >> >>Please note: If you did not receive this email from the Thomas Merton >>Foundation >>and you would like subscribe to our weekly reflection email list please >>click on this link! >>http://www.mertonfoundation.org/merton.php3?page=guestbook >>.ext Thank you! >> >>If you would like to comment on this quote or share your "Merton" story >>please reply to this email at >>rtoth at mertonfoundation.org >> >>To Unsubscribe: If you no longer want to receive this weekly reflection >>reply to this email >>with a note to remove you from the list. >> >>Robert G. Toth >>Executive Director >>Thomas Merton Foundation >>2117 Payne Street >>Louisville, KY 40206 (502)899-1957 >>rtoth at mertonfoundation.org >> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 11 04:31:20 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 09:31:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Merton References: <200509110459.j8B4xuSN052662@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net><005001c5b6a3$a5508810$d7aa3852@ANNY> <6.0.3.0.2.20050911024503.02865e10@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <002701c5b6ab$302a2b60$5de8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> God, of course, can be the ultimate intoxicant. 100% spirit. I recall those haunting lines of Geoffrey Hill's: " I believe in my abandonment. Because it is what I have." (from memory that, the lineation might be off) There are vervet monkeys psalming in the gutters. Best Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 06:02:25 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:02:25 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Castle of Perseverance... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why are you talking to yourself? On 9/10/05, Kent Johnson wrote: > It's much better in the revised and expanded version going into > Adventures. > > This one Jim Behrle just cut and pasted was posted the day I wrote it > in an alcoholic, narcissistic heat of Aristophanic fire. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- http://www.badstep.net From rog3r.day at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 06:08:54 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:08:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Merton In-Reply-To: <002701c5b6ab$302a2b60$5de8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> References: <200509110459.j8B4xuSN052662@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> <005001c5b6a3$a5508810$d7aa3852@ANNY> <6.0.3.0.2.20050911024503.02865e10@mail.ilstu.edu> <002701c5b6ab$302a2b60$5de8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: Interesting. I really do think this belongs to the narcissm thread. Roger On 9/11/05, David Bircumshaw wrote: > > God, of course, can be the ultimate intoxicant. 100% spirit. > > I recall those haunting lines of Geoffrey Hill's: > > > " I believe > in my abandonment. Because it is what I have." > > > (from memory that, the lineation might be off) > > There are vervet monkeys psalming in the gutters. > > > Best > > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 11 06:35:50 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:35:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Merton References: <200509110459.j8B4xuSN052662@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net><005001c5b6a3$a5508810$d7aa3852@ANNY><6.0.3.0.2.20050911024503.02865e10@mail.ilstu.edu><002701c5b6ab$302a2b60$5de8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <000701c5b6bc$94cdf680$2aedff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> > Interesting. I really do think this belongs to the narcissm thread. > > Roger Egotistically sublime? Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thomas Merton > Interesting. I really do think this belongs to the narcissm thread. > > Roger > > On 9/11/05, David Bircumshaw wrote: > > > > God, of course, can be the ultimate intoxicant. 100% spirit. > > > > I recall those haunting lines of Geoffrey Hill's: > > > > > > " I believe > > in my abandonment. Because it is what I have." > > > > > > (from memory that, the lineation might be off) > > > > There are vervet monkeys psalming in the gutters. > > > > > > Best > > > > Dave > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > -- > http://www.badstep.net > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 11 12:13:23 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:13:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A parody of careful dress Message-ID: I Saw You Walking I saw you walking through Newark Penn Station in your shoes of white ash. At the corner of my nervous glance your dazed passage first forced me away, tracing the crescent berth you'd give a drunk, a lurcher, nuzzling all corners with ill will and his stench, but not this one, not today; one shirt arm's sheared clean from the shoulder, the whole bare limb wet with muscle and shining dimly pink, the other full-sheathed in cotton, Brooks Bros. type, the cuff yet buttoned at the wrist, a parody of careful dress, preparedness -- so you had not rolled up your sleeves yet this morning when your suit jacket (here are the pants, dark gray, with subtle stripe, as worn by men like you on ordinary days) and briefcase (you've none, reverse commuter come from the pit with nothing to carry but your life) were torn from you, as your life was not. Your face itself seemed to be walking, leading your body north, though the age of the face, blank and ashen, passing forth and away from me, was unclear, the sandy crown of hair powdered white like your feet, but underneath not yet gray -- forty-seven? forty-eight? The age of someone's father -- and I trembled for your luck, for your broad, dusted back, half shirted, walking away; I should have dropped to my knees to thank God you were alive, o my God, in whom I don't believe. --Deborah Garrison. The New Yorker, 22 October 2001. Reprinted in 110 Stories: New York Writes After September 11,edited by Ulrich Baer. New York University Press. 2002. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Sep 11 12:28:01 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 12:28:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Huerta, "Light from Parallel Worlds" Message-ID: Light from Parallel Worlds A light that seemed to join parallel worlds entered the room: it fused into one monstrous figure a line from Tetris and the palest yellow corner of the Garden of Earthly Delights, Bosch's famous painting. It filled my head with pathetic telephonemes, minuscule lectures on intertextuality, Jessye Norman's whisper mangled by the weather report. That light made me see within my eyes the genesis of the "fire of the gaze," particular geometries and pataphysical toys: in the trigger of the untimely minute there opened a Des Esseintes collection, a Canterel park, astronomies sprung from the glove of Jorge Spero. Art nouveau filigrees interlocked with the short circuit's spirals and iron. The room closed in upon itself and the light disappeared ? yet what came was not darkness but "the color that fell from the sky." Discreetly, I brought my hands to my face, my palms empty, said to myself three times ? three, thrice ? that I should calm down. My body seeped toward the Venice of its inner canals, a benzodiazepine magic. And I slept, hoping to find in dreams the key to the parallel worlds and the light that joined them. --- Una luz que parecia unir mundos paralelos entr? en la habitaci?n: fundi? en una figura monstruosa una linea de Tetris y el rinc?n m?s pajizo del Jardin de las Delicias, famoso cuadro del Bosco. Me llen? la cabeza de telefonemas pat?ticos, de min?sculas conferencias sobre intertextualidad, de susurros de Jessye Norman lacerados por el informe meteorol?gico. Esa luz me hizo ver dentro de mis ojos la g?nesis del "fuego de la mirada", distintas geometrias y juguetes pataf?sicos: abri? en el gatillo del impuntual minuto una colecci?n Des Esseintes, un parque Canterel, astronom?as que sal?eron del guante de Jorge Spero. Filigranas art nouveau se enlazeron con hierros y volutos de cortecircuito. La habitaci?n se cerr? sobre s? misma y la luz desapareci? ?pero lo que lleg? no fue la oscuridad sino "el color que cay? del cielo". Sigilosamente me llev? las manos a la cara, con las palmas abiertas, me dije tres veces ? tres, tres veces ?, que deb?a tranquilizarme. Mi cuerpo destil? hac?a la Venecia de sus canales interiores una magia de benzodiazepinas. Y me dorm?, tratando de buscar en el sue?o la clave de los mundos paralelos y de la luz que los un?a. --David Huerta, tr. Mark Schafer fr. *Reversible Monuments: Contemporary Mexican Poetry* [Port Townsend, Washington: Copper Canyon Press, 2002] Hal Halvard Johnson ================ email: halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com Hal Serving the tristate area. Halvard Johnson ================ email: halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sun Sep 11 13:46:55 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 12:46:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] groups, agonism, narcissism Message-ID: [again, since this is a double-list discussion...] David, I wish I'd taken a bit more time with that last post in reply to Gabe. There were some awkward formulations and things left out that could have clarified some things. But yes, I did say that contest, agonism, anxiety of influence, whatever you want to call it, is a big part of poetic culture and has been so ever since the Greeks were wacking each other across the face with their papyrus scrolls. I also said that agonism is something that informs the practice of poetry at the individual level *and* the group level. In the latter case, contest will become particularly visible: this is the history of avant-garde movements, such as Language poetry, or of rear-guard movements, like the New Formalism, to use two recent examples. Poets within the orbit of contentious movements like these assimilate the group spirit of agonism and tend to carry it over in their individual practices. That is, contest and conflict come to actively operate within the group as well as between competing "aesthetic tendencies." That's probably self-evident, nothing all that newsy there. But what I think is interesting is how contest and conflict within a once "unified" formation seems to get stronger as the intitial ideological bonds dissipate over time, as the "Trungpas" or Matthew Arnolds or the Pounds or Ransom/Tates or the Benstein/Andrews fall away and there is no "symbolic center" there to keep things more or less in check. Then the narcissism-effect starts to spread, you begin to get a kind of general economy of poetic contest, things begin to get very nasty, even (even to the point that harsh contest and anxious narcissism gets cloaked in manifestoes that preach about the evils of bad narcissists) and all this goes on for some time, until formations begin to coalesce within the big churning gas cloud and you start to get stars with young planets revolving around them again. Or blogs with other blogs revolving around them. Or poets on lists, with other poets revolving around them, and some things get said and other things don't get said, depending on who is revolving around whom (sometimes these orbits are very elliptical and wobbly, don't get me wrong, its not very heliocentric at all, it's very chaotic). And it all overlaps and there are all sorts of collisions and it all is, as I said yesterday, very overdetermined, very complex, so that, as I said yesterday, too, it is true that sometimes poets act bad and are harmful to the "community," yes, but it's also true that sometimes poets who are fingered as being bad (which they may be, in part, no one's perfect!) are being fingered precisely because they have decided to do contest (usually quixotically) with aspects of a system they perceive as being in a sense fucked up and imbalanced and potentially harmful to the better health of the general genre or sub-culture, or because they feel they must do this as a way of defending themselves against, or compensating for, undue attack (these two are often overlapping, of course). When people do this--especially when they deploy satire and farce as their lances--they get called all sorts of names. Like "Narcissist." And the history of poetry keeps unfolding. And the windmills keep turning. And it will be this way so long as poets are solidly attached to solid empirical names which are used as coin in the service of cultural careers. Which means it will no doubt always be this way. But this has nothing to do with being tied to a "particular aesthetic," as you put it, I think, so there I have to say you did misread me. To the contrary, the dynamics of the fancifully drawn graph above have no aesthetic home at all. Their home is Poetry, which is a spectrum. A red-shift spectrum, as I am fond of saying. Does this mean that people can't be good and nice to each other? Of course not. But being aware of how things function, being aware of the existence of the *field*, as it were, might help us to be our best, which is certianly hard to do, we fail all the time. Sometimes we become cowardly out of fear that we'll be on the "outs." And then we feel all shitty and stuff, and wish we hadn't done that, because life is short, and you either say what you mean or you don't. I don';t know, probably honesty is very important. Being upfront about who one is talking about, instead of being passive aggressive, pretending you are holier than thou when really you are caught up in the whole dark thing... We all do that, too. I suppose I am doing it in a way myself, now. It's very complicated. Funny, though: How that "dark thing," when its harnessed and tamed, can sometimes effloresce into such astonishing loveliness. Go Pegasus. Go! Just to end by saying that Jim is right: Mike Magee was innocently mistaken about the phone call to my college president; Jim wrote him an email. I, like Chris Daniels, really do wish Jim the best with his struggle with alcohol. It is to his great credit, I'd say, that he has managed to quit, and I tip my hat to him. Same to Gabe. I honor them, in that regard. I will do my best. And I now look forward to the new cartoons and to the football season. Kent * David Need said: Now, having said that, I do want to speak back to something Kent said, that I am probably going to mis-quote (so watch for his emendation somewhere) but was, in any case, a trigger for what I'm gonna say. Kent said something like competition and staging have always been a part of poetry. It looked to me as if this statement was partly used to justify atmposphere of contest and back and forth going on. And then he ended by saying anyone who didn't admit they wanted to be a star/be vsible when they read weren't being honest with themselves. (or something like that...) Well, I agree with Kent about the last, but I am not sure that the fact of competition and primary narcissism (the need to be seen by others) has to result in a particular ethic or aesthetic. I mean, it depends on what you want to highlight, and how you work with your desires. And I'd add to this that competition is never the only drive going. We often want to conceive of ourselves as having unitary interests, and a critic can always cast a take based on amplifying a given purpose into a characterization, but isn't it the case that our desires/interests are mutliple. I mean, when the meat is on the table, I want it, and I don't want anyone to get in my way, but I also love my brother/sister, I like hanging out with them, and I can get that they want the food too... So, in this sense, from my perspective, the issue of compteition/desire/narcissisum doesn't define the field, it just marks a problem to which we can try to ethically and aestehtically respond. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sun Sep 11 18:06:36 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:06:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] help in locating a New Orleans poet Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050911170402.02828c00@mail.ilstu.edu> a friend of mine is very very concerned about a New Orleans poet named Kay Murphy. Her email is bounced back and she has NOT been heard from. if anyone has any news about her, please backchannel -- gmguddi at ilstu.edu -- so i can forward the news to my friend. thanks, gabe From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 18:42:48 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 18:42:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] narcossizzm In-Reply-To: <9cf360450509111501399bbdab@mail.gmail.com> References: <9cf360450509111501399bbdab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9cf3604505091115424b6d17@mail.gmail.com> Kent's only really arguing against blogs that don't like immediately and slavishly do his business. When he asks them to. All the time. In frequent e-mails. I used to get. Do this and that. Post this! Do this! And I got to the point where I was like, hey Kent, I don't work for you. Other bloggers might someday get to that point, too, showing Kent's who's boss. Then they'll end up in one of his 'lil plays. Hoo! I wonder if Josh Corey, Anthony Robinson, Christine Murray, John Latta, Geoffrey Gatza, Tony Tost--like are all these folks nossossssissstiks too, everyone? Check your business cards: you're poets not shrinks. Luv Jimmy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 19:07:48 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:07:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] pop some popcorn and order yourself a wheelbarrow full of julip Message-ID: <9cf3604505091116072076d08e@mail.gmail.com> Start from the very beginning if you've missed any of the slanderous fun of the controversial cartoon "It's Not Easy Being Kent" at http://itsnoteasybeingkent.blogspot.com/ and stay tuned to jimbehrle.com for the latest and most offensive (don't be fooled, it starts off slowly) week of cartoon Kent yet. Also further BEST AMERICAN POETRY massacre and a new piece called FROM ALL THE NEW STATE CAPITALS all this week--100% Jimmy / 0% Whiny Kent from the sexie guy you hate to hate Luv Jimmy "I just wanna end up someplace inside you for a while" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Sep 11 21:29:45 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:29:45 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] HELP W/NO ORLEANS SONG PROJECT Message-ID: <200509120005.j8C05k90261088@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Dear People On My (Continuous Peasant) Mailing List--- I don't usually like to do this, and I certainly can understand why this may seem like an INAPPROPRIATE request on my part in the wake of the recent tragedy in New Orleans and rural LA and MISS, but why I am writing to you to ask for economic (or barter) help relates, in no small part, to the difficult task of rebuilding that city (especially if there's to be even the slightest hope that the city can be rebuilt in a way that can keep what was TRULY best about it--not as Bush and Corporate America will define it). So I'll "cut to the chase," I just wrote a song about the New Orleans tragedy (it's a slow country waltz ala some John Prine), and I'm assembling musicians to record it (Willy Seekamp has graciously donated studio time), hopefully in the next two weeks, and because of the timely nature of it, I'd rather not wait until the next Continuous Peasant album, but would like to release it as a "single" (a vinyl 7 inch perhaps, though I suppose that's a novelty; maybe a "CD single"; ideally I could find another musician who has also written a song about this tragedy and it could be a SPLIT SINGLE-- Please LET ME KNOW if you have), and then go about selling it and donating all profits to a fund for the rebuilding New Orleans (in the spirit of THULANI DAVIS's recent remarks; which you can find on my blog-- http://blog.myspace.com/continuouspeasant So here's how you could help. If you happen to know any record label that will be willing to release the song, and write it off as a donation, etc (the publicity they could get may also be a positive), please let me know. Or if you know a vinyl pressing plant, who would be willing to donate their services to help make the timely release of this song a reality, please let me know. Finally, if you know neither of these, and would be interested in helping fund the project (it would probably cost at least $1000 to press one thousand singles), that would also be greatly appreciated (I could try to work out some arrangement so you'd get your money back if that's a condition). I'm going to try every angle I have to make this a reality, for even though I believe the best "topical" songs do have a universal element, and if I wait another year or so until we have another album finished, the song will still have some AESTHETIC VALUE, but I also believe that the time to ACT is now, and yes I do believe that the Topical Song is a form of action, and unfortunately most of the stuff you hear (even on COLLEGE radio) or read about (even in the so-called "indie" press) DOES NOT do that; it may be a small gesture, and not worth your time and money, but I guess it does no harm in asking, and I won't bug you again about it. Thanks for listening, Chris Stroffolino, Continuous Peasant -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 11 20:41:19 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 20:41:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! References: Message-ID: <005801c5b732$b15d80b0$84b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> A parody of careful dressIt's in the latest issue of LIGHT. It's very complimentary about my mini-chapbook, Excerpts from Poem's Search for Meaning, at Mary Veazey's Sticks Press (http://www.stickspress.com). In light of all the discussions of accessibility here, its final paragraph may amuse some New-Poetry participants: "For a delight in words, and for the work they may be forced to do when yoked in harness; for as well a knowing skill in putting these surly drabs through their paces; and for, finally, its high sophisticated pleasure in being highly readable (these adjectives are not often found in the same yoke) I urge you to obtain this collection." What was most encouraging to me about the review was that the reviewer ("Particle") so accurately described my over-all aims in these (entirely verbal) poems (which I consider slightly surrealistic, occasionally slant-worded, Iowa plaintext lyrics. That he liked what I was up to was a happy bonus. --Bob Grumman ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 12:13 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] A parody of careful dress I Saw You Walking I saw you walking through Newark Penn Station in your shoes of white ash. At the corner of my nervous glance your dazed passage first forced me away, tracing the crescent berth you'd give a drunk, a lurcher, nuzzling all corners with ill will and his stench, but not this one, not today; one shirt arm's sheared clean from the shoulder, the whole bare limb wet with muscle and shining dimly pink, the other full-sheathed in cotton, Brooks Bros. type, the cuff yet buttoned at the wrist, a parody of careful dress, preparedness -- so you had not rolled up your sleeves yet this morning when your suit jacket (here are the pants, dark gray, with subtle stripe, as worn by men like you on ordinary days) and briefcase (you've none, reverse commuter come from the pit with nothing to carry but your life) were torn from you, as your life was not. Your face itself seemed to be walking, leading your body north, though the age of the face, blank and ashen, passing forth and away from me, was unclear, the sandy crown of hair powdered white like your feet, but underneath not yet gray -- forty-seven? forty-eight? The age of someone's father -- and I trembled for your luck, for your broad, dusted back, half shirted, walking away; I should have dropped to my knees to thank God you were alive, o my God, in whom I don't believe. --Deborah Garrison. The New Yorker, 22 October 2001. Reprinted in 110 Stories: New York Writes After September 11,edited by Ulrich Baer. New York University Press. 2002. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 23:04:17 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:04:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Group(ie)s Message-ID: <9cf3604505091120041472961e@mail.gmail.com> I guess it wasn't clear to me when I joined the Kent-infested spiderholes that part of my job was to like *please you guys.* Yeah, right, whoops! If you guys wanna play Enabler the once-great -now-sad Mephisto and follow along on the search for imaginary stolen trucks and such, go 4 it. Don't be backchanneling me, telling me I'm a jerk (I already know I'm a jerk). You're mad because I'm saying the things many of you should have said long ago to this on hit wonder ("Blogs Killed the Listserv Star"). Or you're mad because Kent know has a couple thousand new assholes courtesy of me. Now I'm willing to relent if Instructor "Me Llamo" stops talking about himself for a week or two and posts about some other topic here. Like Balzac. Or cucumbers. Or good recipes for mint julips and microwave popcorn. So far it's been whining about all the great ways I've been torching him: now that's boring. Whining and lying. I don't have to make anything up: I'm the sexiest, brightest sunbeam to ever come down off our star, ask anybody. I only post to match every one of his little posts. I'm really very mature. Lighten up or kick me off. Then I'll have some real fun. You can get digest form, you can skip the messages you don't want to read. Whatever it takes. Don't backchannel me about how Marianne Moore published you in 1786. Unless you're cute and you want to get sweaty. Then, by all means. Luv Jimmy jimbehrle.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimbehrle at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 23:10:08 2005 From: jimbehrle at gmail.com (Jim Behrle) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:10:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] PS Message-ID: <9cf360450509112010759787f5@mail.gmail.com> check out the amazing and very timely Joyelle McSweeney poem at canwehaveourballback.com on the front page xxx jimmy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Sun Sep 11 23:16:45 2005 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:16:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary Narcissism and the Manufacture of Scandal In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050910133336.026f2550@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050910133336.026f2550@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050911221507.031f4d00@mail.ilstu.edu> Hey, Gabe-- I admire this post; well done. Thought you might not know that you're the star on Poetry Radio come Tuesday (10A & P), reading the poem about your strabismus. Listen in and gratify your (waning) vanity. cheers, Old Guy At 01:36 PM 9/10/2005, you wrote: >Ever since reading THE GREAT NAROPA POETRY WARS this summer, I have been >thinking about Allen Ginsberg's alcoholism -- and how that book clearly >shows that, though he would never fess up to it, Ginsberg was interested >in the purposeful manufacture of Outrage, the politics of scandal and what >might be called an Economy of Attention. > * A Literary Narcissist's behavior will not only tolerate but > encourage attacks on himself so long as it can translate his own > self-fascination into more news of himself. > * Just as the Narcissist will use argument, catastrophe, disputation > to attract attention, certain people will be willing to dispute the > Narcissist in order to participate in the economy of attention. Others > will dispute the Narcissist because they are so profoundly appalled by > his/her behavior. Either way, the economy of attention is fueled. > * The Narcissist needs Catastrophe. The more internal crises of shame > the Narcissist endures and fails to heed, the more s/he will need to > create external Catastrophes. A chief and signal way a Narcissist might > attract attention is to start fights: Narcissists will gravitate toward > satire and caricature as a means of creating argument. The Narcissist > will attempt to construe strife with health: "These arguments need to > happen," etc. > * The Narcissist IS fascinating -- but not for the reasons the > Narcissist thinks. S/he is fascinating because the energy s/he will > expend in micromanaging the self image is so profoundly exceptional. > People just sort of stand there slack-jawed wondering if this person has > a life. The Narcissist however will mistranslate the fascination of > others as admiration. > * Poetry communities will tolerate narcissism so long as it is > translated into a Social Energy which others can use to strengthen and > promote their projects. > * Narcissism and alcoholism. Alcoholism is a systematic way to push > down socially regulating emotions like shame, guilt, and embarrassment at > one's own self-aggrandizing behavior. The suppression of these emotions > is never successful, even in the most energetic of self-aggrandizers, and > they will periodically burst upward into brief displays of remorse and > convictions to change. These brief spouts of regulatory behavior are > sometimes shared publicly and sometimes privately among confidants. These > displays however can often easily be "re-used" by the Narcissist as a way > of showing his/her authenticity and emotional fealty to the community. > * The Narcissist is aware of the economy of disgust surrounding > his/her behavior. S/he becomes more and more sensitive to this and > consequently begins to demand private declarations of loyalty from those > people whom s/he knows consider themselves friends -- even if they have > said nothing publicly against the Narcissist. > * The Narcissist, aware of this disgust, will create a personal mythos > in which s/he will be justified and exonerated by the rewards of literary > "history." The stronger the disgust of others, the greater the energy > used to maintain the mythos of exoneration by history. > * Narcissists are only interested in community so long as it pays > dividends to their energy: they will support it if it feeds them. > * The narcissist may outright demand in private that you "pay" him > publicly with praise. Then he or she will publicly "repay" you with a > communal mention. > * In their attempt to cause others to adopt their self-fascination, > Narcissists will become increasingly paranoiac, constantly searching the > environment and community for news of themselves, for fealty or disloyalty. > * The Literary Narcissist begins purposefully to conflate criticism of > his social behavior into an indication of his/her literary worth. That is > to say, the Narcissist will try to show that the reason others despise or > are disgusted by him is in fact because he or she is a "Rebel," a true > Literary Revolutionist -- and that the statements of disgust others > publicly make at his behavior is merely an indication of (a) their > necessary denial of the work because they are threatened by it, or (b) > their jealousy of the work. > * There comes a point -- and the point may come early -- where the > community thinks to itself "teapot" and the Narcissist still hears > "tempest." The truly insular narcissist (aka "the boor") will be met more > and more with shunning, ignoring and silence. This will wrest the > narcissist from his insularity -- such that he will begin another project > designed to create Genuine Interest instead of mere scandalous attention. > This project, like a new comet's head, will be followed by a long tail of > manufactured scandal so as to call attention to its presence in the > literary sky. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Sun Sep 11 23:47:28 2005 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:47:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mistaken posting--but never mind! In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050911221507.031f4d00@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050910133336.026f2550@mail.ilstu.edu> <6.0.2.0.2.20050911221507.031f4d00@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050911223409.01b0bb30@mail.ilstu.edu> Sorry, folks; this was meant to be a private message, but I didn't pay close enough attention to the reply-address. However, now that I've unintentionally broached the subject, if you want to hear Gabe reading his poem on the local Poetry Radio show--or, for that matter, if you want to hear any number of poets and other good readers reading poems from all over the poetic map (Chaucer to last week)--go to www.wglt.org the website for WGLT, the local NPR station (News, Blues, and all that Jazz) here in Normal, IL, every Tuesday and Thursday at 10AM and 10PM and then again on Sunday nights at 10PM, and click on the button that says "Listen." You might hear Carolyn Forche or Cornelius Eady or Cecil Giscombe, or Li-Young Lee or Kay Murphy or god-knows-who: we've been doing this show here at Illinois State University for 13 years now, and we have a rich tape library. Again, my apologies for mis-sending the message to Gabe. But if my mistake brings listeners to Poetry Radio, I won't be too sorry about the imposition. cheers, Bill Morgan At 10:16 PM 9/11/2005, you wrote: >Hey, Gabe-- > > I admire this post; well done. > > Thought you might not know that you're the star on Poetry Radio > come Tuesday (10A & P), reading the poem about your strabismus. Listen > in and gratify your (waning) vanity. > > cheers, > > Old Guy > >At 01:36 PM 9/10/2005, you wrote: >>Ever since reading THE GREAT NAROPA POETRY WARS this summer, I have been >>thinking about Allen Ginsberg's alcoholism -- and how that book clearly >>shows that, though he would never fess up to it, Ginsberg was interested >>in the purposeful manufacture of Outrage, the politics of scandal and >>what might be called an Economy of Attention. >> * A Literary Narcissist's behavior will not only tolerate but >> encourage attacks on himself so long as it can translate his own >> self-fascination into more news of himself. >> * Just as the Narcissist will use argument, catastrophe, disputation >> to attract attention, certain people will be willing to dispute the >> Narcissist in order to participate in the economy of attention. Others >> will dispute the Narcissist because they are so profoundly appalled by >> his/her behavior. Either way, the economy of attention is fueled. >> * The Narcissist needs Catastrophe. The more internal crises of shame >> the Narcissist endures and fails to heed, the more s/he will need to >> create external Catastrophes. A chief and signal way a Narcissist might >> attract attention is to start fights: Narcissists will gravitate toward >> satire and caricature as a means of creating argument. The Narcissist >> will attempt to construe strife with health: "These arguments need to >> happen," etc. >> * The Narcissist IS fascinating -- but not for the reasons the >> Narcissist thinks. S/he is fascinating because the energy s/he will >> expend in micromanaging the self image is so profoundly exceptional. >> People just sort of stand there slack-jawed wondering if this person has >> a life. The Narcissist however will mistranslate the fascination of >> others as admiration. >> * Poetry communities will tolerate narcissism so long as it is >> translated into a Social Energy which others can use to strengthen and >> promote their projects. >> * Narcissism and alcoholism. Alcoholism is a systematic way to push >> down socially regulating emotions like shame, guilt, and embarrassment >> at one's own self-aggrandizing behavior. The suppression of these >> emotions is never successful, even in the most energetic of >> self-aggrandizers, and they will periodically burst upward into brief >> displays of remorse and convictions to change. These brief spouts of >> regulatory behavior are sometimes shared publicly and sometimes >> privately among confidants. These displays however can often easily be >> "re-used" by the Narcissist as a way of showing his/her authenticity and >> emotional fealty to the community. >> * The Narcissist is aware of the economy of disgust surrounding >> his/her behavior. S/he becomes more and more sensitive to this and >> consequently begins to demand private declarations of loyalty from those >> people whom s/he knows consider themselves friends -- even if they have >> said nothing publicly against the Narcissist. >> * The Narcissist, aware of this disgust, will create a personal >> mythos in which s/he will be justified and exonerated by the rewards of >> literary "history." The stronger the disgust of others, the greater the >> energy used to maintain the mythos of exoneration by history. >> * Narcissists are only interested in community so long as it pays >> dividends to their energy: they will support it if it feeds them. >> * The narcissist may outright demand in private that you "pay" him >> publicly with praise. Then he or she will publicly "repay" you with a >> communal mention. >> * In their attempt to cause others to adopt their self-fascination, >> Narcissists will become increasingly paranoiac, constantly searching the >> environment and community for news of themselves, for fealty or disloyalty. >> * The Literary Narcissist begins purposefully to conflate criticism >> of his social behavior into an indication of his/her literary worth. >> That is to say, the Narcissist will try to show that the reason others >> despise or are disgusted by him is in fact because he or she is a >> "Rebel," a true Literary Revolutionist -- and that the statements of >> disgust others publicly make at his behavior is merely an indication of >> (a) their necessary denial of the work because they are threatened by >> it, or (b) their jealousy of the work. >> * There comes a point -- and the point may come early -- where the >> community thinks to itself "teapot" and the Narcissist still hears >> "tempest." The truly insular narcissist (aka "the boor") will be met >> more and more with shunning, ignoring and silence. This will wrest the >> narcissist from his insularity -- such that he will begin another >> project designed to create Genuine Interest instead of mere scandalous >> attention. This project, like a new comet's head, will be followed by a >> long tail of manufactured scandal so as to call attention to its >> presence in the literary sky. >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 12 01:19:51 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 06:19:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Huerta, "Light from Parallel Worlds" References: Message-ID: <004d01c5b759$9ac8cb30$1be8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Halvard, re the translation, the line: > of the Garden of Earthly Delights, Bosch's famous painting. is hereby nominated for the Tennyson Prize. That, if you don't know, was ALT's little joke about the possibility of writing the flattest line in English poetry ever. (The Spanish original, although literally meaning the same, sounds ironic to my ear, but the rhythm of the translation, although probably meaning to capture the tone of the original, mis-fires) Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 5:28 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Huerta,"Light from Parallel Worlds" > > Light from Parallel Worlds > > A light that seemed to join parallel worlds > entered the room: > it fused into one monstrous figure > a line from Tetris and the palest yellow corner > of the Garden of Earthly Delights, Bosch's famous painting. > > It filled my head with pathetic telephonemes, > minuscule lectures on intertextuality, > Jessye Norman's whisper mangled > by the weather report. > > That light made me see within my eyes > the genesis of the "fire of the gaze," > particular geometries and pataphysical toys: > in the trigger of the untimely minute there opened > a Des Esseintes collection, a Canterel park, > astronomies sprung from the glove of Jorge Spero. > > Art nouveau filigrees interlocked > with the short circuit's spirals and iron. The room > closed in upon itself and the light disappeared > ? yet what came was not darkness but "the color > that fell from the sky." Discreetly, I brought my hands > to my face, my palms empty, > said to myself three times ? three, thrice ? > that I should calm down. > > My body seeped toward the Venice > of its inner canals, > a benzodiazepine magic. > And I slept, hoping to find in dreams > the key to the parallel worlds > and the light that joined them. > > --- > > Una luz que parecia unir mundos paralelos > entr? en la habitaci?n: > fundi? en una figura monstruosa > una linea de Tetris y el rinc?n m?s pajizo > del Jardin de las Delicias, famoso cuadro del Bosco. > > Me llen? la cabeza de telefonemas pat?ticos, > de min?sculas conferencias sobre intertextualidad, > de susurros de Jessye Norman lacerados > por el informe meteorol?gico. > > Esa luz me hizo ver dentro de mis ojos > la g?nesis del "fuego de la mirada", > distintas geometrias y juguetes pataf?sicos: > abri? en el gatillo del impuntual minuto > una colecci?n Des Esseintes, un parque Canterel, > astronom?as que sal?eron del guante de Jorge Spero. > > Filigranas art nouveau se enlazeron con hierros > y volutos de cortecircuito. La habitaci?n > se cerr? sobre s? misma y la luz desapareci? > ?pero lo que lleg? no fue la oscuridad sino "el color > que cay? del cielo". Sigilosamente me llev? las manos > a la cara, con las palmas abiertas, > me dije tres veces ? tres, tres veces ?, > que deb?a tranquilizarme. > > Mi cuerpo destil? hac?a la Venecia > de sus canales interiores > una magia de benzodiazepinas. > Y me dorm?, tratando de buscar en el sue?o > la clave de los mundos paralelos > y de la luz que los un?a. > > --David Huerta, tr. Mark Schafer > > fr. *Reversible Monuments: Contemporary Mexican Poetry* > [Port Townsend, Washington: Copper Canyon Press, 2002] > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson ================ > email: halvard at earthlink.net > halvard at gmail.com > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > > > Hal Serving the tristate area. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > email: halvard at earthlink.net > halvard at gmail.com > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 12 02:34:46 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:34:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! References: <005801c5b732$b15d80b0$84b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00aa01c5b764$11d48480$1be8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> A parody of careful dressCongratulations, Bob. The real delight of reviews, notices etc, can be the unexpected, whereby someone you have never met nor communicated with nor heard of before in your life suddenly manifests as a reader and, if you're lucky, with words of praise. It is like getting a pat on the head from Anon. In contradistinction, this is what makes the Kent project so sad, so pathetic, what comes across is an inordinate desire to be noticed. It's easy to get noticed, if that's what one wants, just walk across a Town Hall Square in the nude with a bowl of spaghetti on your head, sure, people will notice. But I'm not sure if anything constructive will result from such an action. Signed urinals worked once, at a particular point in cultural history, but to repeat the gesture is just that: gesture. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 1:41 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! It's in the latest issue of LIGHT. It's very complimentary about my mini-chapbook, Excerpts from Poem's Search for Meaning, at Mary Veazey's Sticks Press (http://www.stickspress.com). In light of all the discussions of accessibility here, its final paragraph may amuse some New-Poetry participants: "For a delight in words, and for the work they may be forced to do when yoked in harness; for as well a knowing skill in putting these surly drabs through their paces; and for, finally, its high sophisticated pleasure in being highly readable (these adjectives are not often found in the same yoke) I urge you to obtain this collection." What was most encouraging to me about the review was that the reviewer ("Particle") so accurately described my over-all aims in these (entirely verbal) poems (which I consider slightly surrealistic, occasionally slant-worded, Iowa plaintext lyrics. That he liked what I was up to was a happy bonus. --Bob Grumman ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 12:13 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] A parody of careful dress I Saw You Walking I saw you walking through Newark Penn Station in your shoes of white ash. At the corner of my nervous glance your dazed passage first forced me away, tracing the crescent berth you'd give a drunk, a lurcher, nuzzling all corners with ill will and his stench, but not this one, not today; one shirt arm's sheared clean from the shoulder, the whole bare limb wet with muscle and shining dimly pink, the other full-sheathed in cotton, Brooks Bros. type, the cuff yet buttoned at the wrist, a parody of careful dress, preparedness -- so you had not rolled up your sleeves yet this morning when your suit jacket (here are the pants, dark gray, with subtle stripe, as worn by men like you on ordinary days) and briefcase (you've none, reverse commuter come from the pit with nothing to carry but your life) were torn from you, as your life was not. Your face itself seemed to be walking, leading your body north, though the age of the face, blank and ashen, passing forth and away from me, was unclear, the sandy crown of hair powdered white like your feet, but underneath not yet gray -- forty-seven? forty-eight? The age of someone's father -- and I trembled for your luck, for your broad, dusted back, half shirted, walking away; I should have dropped to my knees to thank God you were alive, o my God, in whom I don't believe. --Deborah Garrison. The New Yorker, 22 October 2001. Reprinted in 110 Stories: New York Writes After September 11,edited by Ulrich Baer. New York University Press. 2002. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Sep 12 05:21:36 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:21:36 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Library of Congress: Women of Protest Message-ID: <002201c5b77b$607de150$70ab3852@ANNY> > From: Laura Gottesman [mailto:lgot at loc.gov] > Sent: woensdag 24 augustus 2005 15:12 In celebration of the 85th anniversary of women's right to vote in the United States, the Library of Congress is pleased to announce the online release of "Women of Protest: Photographs from the Records of the National Woman's Party," available at http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/suffrage/nwp/. [http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.mss/collmss.ms000004] This presentation is a selection of 448 of the approximately 2,650 photographs in the Records of the National Woman's Party, housed in the Manuscript Division of the Library of Congress. Representing the militant wing of the suffrage movement, the National Woman's Party (NWP) effectively commanded the attention of politicians and the public through its aggressive agitation, relentless lobbying, creative publicity stunts, and disarming examples of civil disobedience. It used tableaus, parades, demonstrations, and picketing--as well as its members' arrests, imprisonment and hunger strikes-to spur public discussion and win publicity for the suffrage cause. Women of Protest presents images that depict the NWP's broad range of tactics as well as individual portraits of organization leaders and members. The photographs span from about 1875 to 1938 but largely date between 1913 and 1922. They document the National Woman's Party's push for passage and ratification of the 19th Amendment, as well as its later campaign for passage of the Equal Rights Amendment. The National Woman's Party was one of the most important national suffrage organizations in the U.S. as well as a leading advocate for women's political, social and economic equality throughout much of the 20th century. An offshoot of the National American Woman Suffrage Association (NAWSA), the NWP was instrumental in achieving passage and ratification of the 19th Amendment nationally extending suffrage to women on August 26, 1920. "Women of Protest: Photographs from the Records of the National Woman's Party" is one of more than 125 thematic collections in American Memory (http://memory.loc.gov), the Library's multimedia Web site containing items ranging from the papers of U.S. presidents, Civil War photographs and early films of Thomas Edison to papers documenting the women's suffrage and civil rights movements, Jazz Age photographs and the first baseball cards. Please direct any questions about this collection to the Library of Congress's American Memory "Ask A Librarian" Service:. Laura Gottesman Reference Specialist The Library of Congress -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Sep 12 06:59:12 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 06:59:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! References: <005801c5b732$b15d80b0$84b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00aa01c5b764$11d48480$1be8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <005401c5b789$05dae000$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> A parody of careful dressCongratulations, Bob. The real delight of reviews, notices etc, can be the unexpected, whereby someone you have never met nor communicated with nor heard of before in your life suddenly manifests as a reader and, if you're lucky, with words of praise. It is like getting a pat on the head from Anon. Yes, even a blog mention of your work by someone you don't know is great. In my case, the reviewer is a friend of a friend. But my stuff is so rarely reviewed, I don't mind! Now that I think of it, I don't think anyone I don't know has done a real review of anything of mine. But I think I've only been reviewed five or six times in my life. In contradistinction, this is what makes the Kent project so sad, so pathetic, what comes across is an inordinate desire to be noticed. It's easy to get noticed, if that's what one wants, just walk across a Town Hall Square in the nude with a bowl of spaghetti on your head, sure, people will notice. But I'm not sure if anything constructive will result from such an action. Signed urinals worked once, at a particular point in cultural history, but to repeat the gesture is just that: gesture. I haven't yet figured out what's going on re: Kent. It doesn't look like he's actually gotten much notice, except from Behrle, who seems as nuts in his own way. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsillima at yahoo.com Mon Sep 12 07:30:27 2005 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 04:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <20050912113027.9322.qmail@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS The Americanization of Marjorie ? The Vienna Paradox of M. Perloff The Art of 9/11 Jim Behrle and his Silliman Sitcom Lisa Robertson & Rousseau?s Boat Minimalism of the middle ground: Chuck Stebelton & Precious The miracle is that it works ? Terry Gilliam & chaos in The Brothers Grimm Summer reading A note on New Orleans http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Sep 12 10:19:29 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:19:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One tasty piece of nature Message-ID: Dear Lacuna, Dear Lard: I'm here, one fat cherry blossom blooming like a clod, one sad groat glazing, a needle puling thread, so what, so sue me. These days what else to do but leer at any boy with just the right hairline. Hey! I say. That's one tasty piece of nature. Tart Darkling, if I could I'd gin, I'd bargain, I'd take a little troll this moolit night, let you radish me awhile, let you gag and confound me. How much I've struggled with despicing you, always; your false poppets, relentless distances. Yet plea-bargaining and lack of conversation continue to make me your faithful indefile. I'm lonely. I've turned all rage to rag, all pratfalls fast to fatfalls for you, Mr. Farmer in the Dwell. So struggle, strife, so strew me, to bell with these clucking mediocrities, these anxieties over such beings thirty, still smitten with this heaven never meant for, never heard from. You've said we're each pockmarked like a golf course with what can't be said of us, bred in us, isn't our tasty piece of nature. But I tell you I've stars, I've true blue depths, have learned to use the loo, the crew, the whole slough of pill-popping devices without your intelligent and pitiless graze. Everyone knows love is just a euphemism for you've failed me anyway. So screw me. Bartering Yam, regardless of want I'm nothing without scope, hope, nothing without your possibility. So let's laugh like the thieves we are together, the sieves: you, my janus gate, my Sigmund Fraud, my crawling, crack-crazed street sprawled out, revisible, spell-bound. Hello, joy. I'm thirsty. I'm Pasty Rectum. In your absence I've learned to fill myself with starts. Here's my paters. Here's my blue. I just wanted to write again and say how much I've failed you. --Paisley Rekdal. Poetry. November 2004 ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 12 16:05:19 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:05:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: CFP for a special edition of Convergence to mark the tenth anniversary of trAce Message-ID: <002e01c5b7d5$4d4c99f0$1de9ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Forwarding this. My own (hitherto) reaction to their questions was: Bollocks. best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:46 PM Subject: CFP for a special edition of Convergence to mark the tenth anniversary of trAce > > Convergence: The International Journal of New Media Technologies > Call for Papers - Vol 12. No 4. Winter 2006 Special Edition > > AN END TO THE NEW? RE-ASSESSING THE CLAIMS FOR NEW MEDIA WRITING(S) > > Guest-edited by Simon Mills, Gavin Stewart & Sue Thomas > > This special edition of Convergence marks the tenth anniversary of the trAce Online Writing Centre, UK. To commemorate this landmark event, the guest editors are seeking to evaluate the state-of-the-art of new media writing(s). > > This special edition will seek to re-assess the claims made for these forms over the last decade, to challenge the dominant ideologies and terminologies of this maturing field, and to provide a critical re-evaluation of new media writing(s) in all its forms. > > We encourage discussion of the following: > > > - The institutional settings of new media writing(s) > - The relationship between academia and new media writing(s) > - Re-assessments of the claims made for hypertext, new media or digital writing(s) over the past decade > - Art policies and development strategies for new media writing(s) > - The audience for new media writing(s) > - The economics of new media writing(s) > - Pedagogical approaches to new media writing(s) > - The historical context of new media writing(s) > - The relationship between new media writing(s) and other digital arts > > Copy deadline for refereed research articles: 30 January 2006 > All proposals, inquiries and submissions for this special issue to: > > Gavin Stewart, Artistic Project Manager > Address: trAce Online Writing Centre > Nottingham Trent University > Clifton Lane > Nottingham > NG11 8NS > United Kingdom > > e-mail: gavin.stewart at ntu.ac.uk > phone: ++44 (0)115 848 3569 > > > > > the trAce Online Writing Centre > trace at ntu.ac.uk > http://trace.ntu.ac.uk > The Nottingham Trent University > Clifton, Nottingham NG11 8NS, UK > Tel: + 44 (0) 115 848 6360 > Fax: + 44 (0) 115 848 6364 > > You have received this email because you joined the trAce Online Writing Centre via our discussion forums. We apologise if you received it twice. We are in the process of moving our membership database, and this should be a temporary situation. If you would like to stop receiving mailings from us please reply to this email with UNSUB FORUMS in the subject line. > > This e-mail is intended solely for the addressee. It may contain private or confidential information. If you are not the intended addressee, you must take no action on it nor show a copy to anyone. Please reply to this e-mail to highlight the error. > Opinions and information in this e-mail which do not relate to the business of The Nottingham Trent University shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the university. > > > From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Sep 12 18:45:20 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:45:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Knotted Message-ID: Check out Verse Daily, where a poem by Bill Knott is currently featured. http://www.versedaily.org/ -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From matthew.shindell at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 19:11:09 2005 From: matthew.shindell at gmail.com (Matthew Shindell) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:11:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] And the Northern Lights Commenced to Glow Message-ID: <3f273e940509121611239ca796@mail.gmail.com> A press release from the American Astronomical Society: NORTHERN LIGHTS SHOULD SHINE TONIGHT Cambridge, MA- The U.S. could be in for quite a show tonight! Astronomers are predicting that the Northern Lights will shine on and off, periodically coating the northern sky in brilliant greens and reds. "This evening, there is about a 70 percent chance of medium-strength aurorae at our Boston latitude," says Smithsonian astronomer Jonathan Cirtain of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics (CfA). "Aurorae could reach even further south." To see the Northern Lights, Cirtain recommends getting away from city lights. "The darker your sky, the better. Then, all you have to do is look north. No telescope is necessary. The best way to see an aurora is to use your eyes alone." Aurorae occur during geomagnetic storms, which are triggered by eruptions on the Sun. "A geomagnetic storm is already in progress," says Cirtain. "It will last at least through tonight." Several flares already have come from a large active region on the Sun's surface. This area of complex magnetic fields and seething energy has produced several X-class flares, which are the most energetic variety. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) predicts a 75% chance of additional X-class flares within the next 24 hours. Cirtain, who works with the Transition Region and Coronal Explorer (TRACE) satellite, has produced movies of the recent flares. "In one case, we recorded 5 separate flares over the course of 6 hours. That's very unusual." As the sunspot region generating the flares continues to rotate across the Sun's surface and face the Earth head-on, the chance that we will be affected grows because more material from future eruptions will reach us. "We're going to be under the gun for at least the next 3 to 8 days," says Cirtain. "As long as this active region keeps producing flares, we're going to keep getting hit." Headquartered in Cambridge, Mass., the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics (CfA) is a joint collaboration between the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory and the Harvard College Observatory. CfA scientists, organized into six research divisions, study the origin, evolution and ultimate fate of the universe. -- Matthew Shindell Position of No Authority La Jolla, CA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Sep 13 03:43:00 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 09:43:00 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Julia Kasdorf Message-ID: <001901c5b836$c4893bc0$ebac3452@ANNY> >From today's The Writer's Almanac: http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/ Mennonites We keep our quilts in closets and do not dance. We hoe thistles along fence rows for fear we may not be perfect as our Heavenly Father. We clean up his disasters. No one has to call; we just show up in the wake of tornadoes with hammers, after floods with buckets. Like Jesus, the servant, we wash each other's feet twice a year and eat the Lord's Supper, afraid of sins hidden so deep in our organs they could damn us unawares, swallowing this bread, his body, this juice. Growing up, we love the engravings in Martyrs Mirror: men drowned like cats in burlap sacks, the Catholic inquisitors, the woman who handed a pear to her son, her tongue screwed to the roof of her mouth to keep her from singing hymns while she burned. We love Catherine the Great and the rich tracts she gave us in the Ukraine, bright green winter wheat, the Cossacks who torched it, and Stalin, who starved our cousins while wheat rotted in granaries. We must love our enemies. We must forgive as our sins are forgiven, our great-uncle tells us, showing the chain and ball in a cage whittled from one block of wood while he was in prison for refusing to shoulder a gun. He shows the clipping from 1916: Mennonites are German milksops, too yellow to fight. We love those Nazi soldiers who, like Moses, led the last cattle cars rocking out of the Ukraine, crammed with our parents-children then- learning the names of Kansas, Saskatchewan, Paraguay. This is why we cannot leave the beliefs or what else would we be? why we eat 'til we're drunk on shoofly and moon pies and borscht. We do not drink; we sing. Unaccompanied on Sundays, those hymns in four parts, our voices lift with such force that we lift, as chaff lifts toward God. "Mennonites" by Julia Kasdorf, from What I Learned from my Mother ? University of Pittsburgh Press. >From Rambles (a cultural arts magazine): http://www.rambles.net/kasdorf_sleep.html She knows she "can't be alone in (her) memory of calico / bonnets to keep the gray air and stench / of chicken off your hair," as she sits under the corrugated tin roof of Manhattan's Acme Bar and Grill that reminds her of a Pennsylvania henhouse. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Sep 13 03:53:27 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 09:53:27 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Knotted References: Message-ID: <003f01c5b838$39f31b00$ebac3452@ANNY> And a good poem it is. From: "David Graham" Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:45 AM > Check out Verse Daily, where a poem by Bill Knott is currently featured. > > http://www.versedaily.org/ > > > -- > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 13 06:17:36 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:17:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sorta poem Message-ID: <006d01c5b84c$5e6d3dd0$63e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Just writ this, and untitled. Original is in two four line stanzas but transposing from Word has produced the following format, which I possibly prefer. My name is God. Oftentimes, perching on whiles, I peek from my ever and all to touch with my eyes Your all-ways-flit, your now and then, and tremor At the tremble of your not soon to be here, your Quiver of a seismograph needle, your oxygen burn. Lure me my lovelies into your lullabies, let me be Into your selves instead of space. So cold alone At Kelvin's ladder's foot it is, hug me to your warm. Best Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crystallyn at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 08:03:03 2005 From: crystallyn at gmail.com (Crystal King) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:03:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] And the Northern Lights Commenced to Glow In-Reply-To: <3f273e940509121611239ca796@mail.gmail.com> References: <3f273e940509121611239ca796@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Damn! I had no clue last night or I would have been outside peering at the sky! I'll try to get a peek tonight. I read this article (http://tinyurl.com/9saqt) yesterday but didn't realize that the viewing would be possible in Boston. I was mostly just preparing for my cellphone to give out... Crystal www.plumrubyreview.com On 9/12/05, Matthew Shindell wrote: > > A press release from the American Astronomical Society: > > NORTHERN LIGHTS SHOULD SHINE TONIGHT > > Cambridge, MA- The U.S. could be in for quite a show tonight! Astronomers > are predicting that the Northern Lights will shine on and off, > periodically > coating the northern sky in brilliant greens and reds. > > "This evening, there is about a 70 percent chance of medium-strength > aurorae at our Boston latitude," says Smithsonian astronomer Jonathan > Cirtain of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics (CfA). "Aurorae > could reach even further south." > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 13 08:29:50 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:29:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] revision References: <006d01c5b84c$5e6d3dd0$63e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <001901c5b85e$d6ccf4c0$ddecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> My name is God. Not Sherlock Holmes. Oftentimes, perching from my ever I want to touch your eyes, your all-ways-flit, your here and there, and tremor at the tremble of the quiver of your not soon that rhymes with the desolation of your Moon. Lure me my lovelies into your love-eyes, let your lullabies sing me from the dust of space, from at the foot of Kelvin's ladder, from this awful cold. Atishoo. Bless you. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: David Bircumshaw To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:17 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Sorta poem Just writ this, and untitled. Original is in two four line stanzas but transposing from Word has produced the following format, which I possibly prefer. My name is God. Oftentimes, perching on whiles, I peek from my ever and all to touch with my eyes Your all-ways-flit, your now and then, and tremor At the tremble of your not soon to be here, your Quiver of a seismograph needle, your oxygen burn. Lure me my lovelies into your lullabies, let me be Into your selves instead of space. So cold alone At Kelvin's ladder's foot it is, hug me to your warm. Best Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 13 12:55:39 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:55:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Paris Press 10th Anniversary Celebration Message-ID: <198.470cca30.30585e8b@aol.com> Subj: Paris Press 10th Anniversary Celebration Date: 9/10/2005 2:54:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: janfreeman at parispress.org To: ptegeler at aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Please join us as Paris Press Celebrates 10 Years Of Daring and Beautiful Books With a Tribute to Muriel Rukeyser And a Reading From The Life of Poetry Hosted by The Poetry Project at Saint Mark's Church Wednesday, September 21, at 8:00 p.m. Saint Mark's Church, 131 East 10th Street, NYC Readers will include Hortense Calisher, Elizabeth Lorde-Rollins, Martin Moran, Eileen Myles, Marie Ponsot, Eleanor Wilner. The event is co-sponsored by The Academy of American Poets, PEN American Center, The Poetry Society of America, Poets & Writers, Poets House, Teachers & Writers Collaborative, Poetry, and Bloom For information email info at parispress.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 13:22:52 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:22:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who Said It? Message-ID: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> I'll post the answer later this afternoon. No cheating, no "googling." Here we go: "Take a man's mind off the human value of the poem he is reading (and in this case the human value is the art value), switch it on to some question of grammar and you begin his dehumanization." Jeff Newberry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 13 14:34:16 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:34:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY, PHILOSOPHY, & THE FASCINATION OF FORM: Message-ID: <102.6941198e.305875a8@aol.com> POETRY, PHILOSOPHY, & THE FASCINATION OF FORM: A SYMPOSIUM, UNIVERSITY OF HARTFORD OCTOBER 21-23 2005 Symposium will convene late Friday afternoon, Oct. 21st and close the afternoon of Sunday Oct 23rd. Symposium will feature Papers, Talks, Panels, and Poetry Readings. Guest Speakers and Readers? THOMAS ALEXANDER PETER HARE DENNIS BARONE JOHN HOLLANDER MAHLON BARNES SUSAN HOWE CHRISTINE BECK GRAY JACOBIK MICHAEL BURKARD KATIA KAPOVICH VINCENT COLAPIETRO PAUL MARIANI SIMON CRITCHLEY PHILIP NIKOLAYEV RICHARD DEMING MARJORIE PERLOFF JAMES FINNEGAN TRYFON TOLIDES CLAIRE GALLOU PAOLO VALESIO LISA GOLDFARB JAN ZWICKY This symposium is dedicated to Alfredo de Palchi on his eightieth birthday NOTE: All events will be held at?: 'Hartford College for Women' campus Science Center, corner of Asylum Ave & Elizabeth St. Hartford, Connecticut 06105 Map Link: http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=1265+Asylum&csz=06105&country=us&new= 1&name=&qty= The Symposium is Free and Open to the Public Please Register, by contacting Eileen Johnson 1-860-768-4733 Fax: 860-768-5254 Organizing Contacts: Maria Frank Marcia Moen frank at hartford.edu moen at hartford.edu UNIVERSITY OF HARTFORD, COLLEGE OF ARTS & SCIENCES PLEASE DISTRIBUTE & POST ATTACHED FLIER Email me at JforJames at aol.com, if you don't want further updates on this symposium. Thanks, Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Sep 13 15:13:55 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:13:55 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY, PHILOSOPHY, & THE FASCINATION OF FORM: References: <102.6941198e.305875a8@aol.com> Message-ID: <005601c5b897$4950c610$60ee3652@ANNY> Presently there is no school or movement in Italy... they write just as if they were blowing wind... ... a cascade of words without any meaning... I dare to say the real poetry in Italian is created here, in America. Alfredo de Palchi: On Italian Poetry http://www.cortlandreview.com/issue/15/depalchi.html Compliments to you all, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:34 PM POETRY, PHILOSOPHY, & THE FASCINATION OF FORM: A SYMPOSIUM, UNIVERSITY OF HARTFORD OCTOBER 21-23 2005 Symposium will convene late Friday afternoon, Oct. 21st and close the afternoon of Sunday Oct 23rd. Symposium will feature Papers, Talks, Panels, and Poetry Readings. Guest Speakers and Readers? THOMAS ALEXANDER PETER HARE DENNIS BARONE JOHN HOLLANDER MAHLON BARNES SUSAN HOWE CHRISTINE BECK GRAY JACOBIK MICHAEL BURKARD KATIA KAPOVICH VINCENT COLAPIETRO PAUL MARIANI SIMON CRITCHLEY PHILIP NIKOLAYEV RICHARD DEMING MARJORIE PERLOFF JAMES FINNEGAN TRYFON TOLIDES CLAIRE GALLOU PAOLO VALESIO LISA GOLDFARB JAN ZWICKY This symposium is dedicated to Alfredo de Palchi on his eightieth birthday NOTE: All events will be held at?: 'Hartford College for Women' campus Science Center, corner of Asylum Ave & Elizabeth St. Hartford, Connecticut 06105 Map Link: http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=1265+Asylum&csz=06105&country=us&new= 1&name=&qty= The Symposium is Free and Open to the Public Please Register, by contacting Eileen Johnson 1-860-768-4733 Fax: 860-768-5254 Organizing Contacts: Maria Frank Marcia Moen frank at hartford.edu moen at hartford.edu UNIVERSITY OF HARTFORD, COLLEGE OF ARTS & SCIENCES PLEASE DISTRIBUTE & POST ATTACHED FLIER Email me at JforJames at aol.com, if you don't want further updates on this symposium. Thanks, Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbyrne at risd.edu Tue Sep 13 15:18:16 2005 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:18:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [ubuweb] __ U B U W E B __ :: __ RELAUNCH __ Message-ID: HOORAY!!!!!!! ---------------------------- RELAUNCH :: Fall 2005 ---------------------------- A Bump in the Road: After a long summer of rebuilding, UbuWeb is back. Thanks to all our viewers who kindly encouraged our return. We'd also like to thank our new partners for making it all possible: WFMU, PennSound, The Center for Literary Computing, and Artmob. With our expanded bandwidth and storage space, you'll find a wealth of new media files, particularly in our Sound and Film sections (see below). --- RECENT FEATURES --- UbuWeb Films: UbuWeb now hosts over 150 avant-garde films in various formats for download by: Kenneth Anger, Samuel Beckett, Jordan Belson, Joseph Beuys, Robert Breer, James Broughton, Luis Bu?uel, John Cage, Raashan Roland Kirk, Henri Chopin, Rene Clair, Guy Debord, Marcel Duchamp Viking Eggeling, Ed Emshwiller, Oskar Fischinger, FluxFilms, Robert Frank, Ernie Gehr, Henry Hills, Isidore Isou, Joris Ivens, Ken Jacobs, Dimitri Kirsanov, Peter Kubelka, George Landow, Fernand Leger, Len Lye, Gregory Markopoulos, Jonas Mekas, Laszlo Moholy-Nagy, Robert Morris & Stan VanDerBeek, Otto Muehl, Yoko Ono and John Lennon, Nam June Paik, Artavazd Pelechian, Robert Rauschenberg, Man Ray, Hans Richter, Walter Ruttmann, Carolee Schneeman, Richard Serra, Situationist International, Harry Smith, Jack Smith, Kiki Smith, Robert Smithson, Michael Snow, Ladislaw Starewicz, Ralph Steiner, Franciszka and Stefan Themerson, Edgard Var?se and Le Corbusier, Dziga Vertov, Rene Vienet, and James and John Whitney, amongst others. (SEE OUR FULL LIST BELOW) Music With Roots in the Aether: A seminal series of interviews and performances concieved and realized by Robert Ashley in 1976, consisting of 14 hours worth of video and audio. Subjects and performers include: David Behrman, Philip Glass, Alvin Lucier, Gordon Mumma, Pauline Oliveros, Terry Riley, and Robert Ashley. Robert Ashley says: Music with Roots in the Aether is a series of interviews with seven composers who seemed to me when I conceived the piece-and who still seem to me twenty-five years later-to be among the most important, influential and active members of the so-called avant-garde movement in American music, a movement that had its origins in the work of and in the stories about composers who started hearing things in a new way at least fifty years ago." The Charlotte Moorman Archive: UbuWeb is proud to host the audio archive of Charlotte Moorman (1933-1991), containing hours worth of unreleased works and collaborations by Nam June Paik, John, Cage, Earle Brown, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Terry Jennings, Toshi Ichiyanagi, Jackson Mac Low, David Behrman, La Monte Young, Sylvano Bussoti, George Brecht, Dick Higgins, Giuseppe Chiari and others. The selection is curated by Stephen Vitiello, with special thanks to Barbara Moore / Bound & Unbound. People Like Us: The Complete Recordings 1992-2005 UbuWeb now hosts the complete works of the UK-based People Like Us. The brainchild of Vicki Bennett, these hundreds of MP3s feature solo works and collaborations with Matmos, Negativland, Wobbly, The Evolution Control Committee, Ergo Phizmiz, Irene Moon, The Jet Black Hair People, Xper. Xr., Messer Chups, Kenny G and Tipsy. Christof Migone: Montr?al-based Migone is a multidisciplinary artist and writer. His work and research delves into language, voice, bodies, psychopathology, performance, video, intimacy, complicity and endurance. UbuWeb is pleased to present an audio retrospective of Migone's work, both solo and with collaborators. Also featured here are numerous writings by Migone, including a book-length work, La premi?re phrase et le dernier mot, which is comprised of the first sentence and the last word of every book in Migone's library. Fall 2005 :: NEW ADDITIONS Samuel Beckett Film, 1965, 170.0 mb (MPEG) Glenn Gould Radio Broadcasts and Radio Plays, 1967-1981, MP3 Furious Pig I Don't Like Your Face (1980) MP3 Michael Snow Sinoms (1989) MP3 Derek Beaulieu an afterword after words: notes towards a concrete poetic (PDF) Group Ongaku Music of Group Ongaku, 1960-1961 (Takehisa Kosugi, Syuko Mizuno, Mieko Shiomi, Yasunao Tone), MP3 John Cage & Raashan Roland Kirk Sound, 1966, 309 mb (AVI) ?yvind Fahlstr?m Manipulate The World! (1963) and The Holy Torsten Nilsson (1966) MP3 Lasry-Baschet Chronophagie "The Time Eaters" (mid-1960s) MP3 Mairead Byrne Some Differences Between Poetry & Stand-up Comedy, 2004 (PDF) Carlfriedrich Claus Lautaggregat (1995) MP3 DJ Food Raiding the 20th Century - Words & Music Expansion (starring Paul Morley and a cast of thousands) (MP3) John Lennon & Yoko Ono Erection, 1971, 180.7 mb (MPEG) U B U W E B :: Films Kenneth Anger Invocation Of My Demon Brother, 1969, 133.8 mb (AVI) Invocation Of My Demon Brother, 1969, 110.0 mb (MPEG) Kustom Kar Kommandos, 1965, 17.1 mb (AVI) Lucifer Rising, 1970-1981, 321.6 mb (AVI) Puce Moment, 1949, 42.7 mb (AVI) Scorpio Rising, 1949, 194.8 mb (AVI) Eaux D'artifice, 1953, 109.4 mb (AVI) Samuel Beckett Film, 1965, 170.0 mb (MPEG) Jordan Belson Allures, 1961, 46.0 mb (AVI) Joseph Beuys Sonne Statt Reagan, 1982, 4.0 mb (MOV) Robert Breer A Man And His Dog Out For Air, 1957, 19.2 mb (MPEG) James Broughton This Is It, 1971, 174.5 mb (AVI) The Gardener of Eden, 1981, 149.1 mb (AVI) Luis Bu?uel Un Chien andalou, 1929, 322.9 mb (AVI) Un Chien andalou, 1929, 156.1 mb (MPEG) John Cage 4'33", BBC, 2004, 38.5 mb (MOV) John Cage and Raashan Roland Kirk Sound, 1966, 309.0 mb (AVI) Henri Chopin Henri Chopin at Home, undated, 13.9 mb (MOV) Henri Chopin Performance, undated, 19.3 mb (MOV) Rene Clair Entre'act 1924, 249.8 mb (AVI) Guy Debord In Girum Imus Nocte Et Consumimur Igni, Part 1, 1978, 345.3 mb (MPEG) In Girum Imus Nocte Et Consumimur Igni, Part 2, 1978, 580.6 mb (MPEG) Refutation of All Judgments, 1975, 217.1 mb (MPEG) Society of the Spectacle, Part 1, 1973, 456.3 mb (MPEG) Society of the Spectacle, Part 2, 1973, 422.9 mb (MPEG) Marcel Duchamp Anemic Cinema 1926, 26.1 mb (AVI) Viking Eggeling Symphony Diagonale 1924, 16.5 mb (AVI) Ed Emshwiller Sunstone, 1979, 17.8 mb (AVI) Thanatopsis, 1962, 37.3 mb (AVI) Oskar Fischinger Allegretto 1943, 20.3 mb (MPEG) Komposition In Blau 1935, 36.8 mb (MPEG) Motion Painting Screener 1947, 87.6 mb (MPEG) Muntz TV Commercial 1952, 14.0 mb (MPEG) Studie Nr. 6 1930, 3.3 mb (MPEG) Studie Nr. 7 1931, 3.5 mb (MPEG) Studie Nr. 9 1931, 43.5 mb (MPEG) FluxFilms [Please note that all FluxFilms are in the MPEG format.] 01: Nam June Paik - Zen For Film (1962-64), 141 mb 02 Dick Higgins - Invocation of Canyons and Boulders (1966), 5 mb 03 George Maciunas - End After 9 (1966), 12 mb 04 Chieko Shiomi - Disappearing Music for Face (1966), 115 mb 05 John Cavanaugh - Blink (1966), 25 mb 06 James Riddle - 9 Minutes (1966), 113 mb 07 George Maciunas - 10 Feet (1966), 6 mb 08 George Maciunas - 1000 Frames, (1966) 6 mb 09 Yoko Ono - Eye Blink (1966), 7 mb 10 George Brecht - Entrance to Exit (1965), 70 mb 11 Robert Watts - Trace #22 (1965), 33 mb 12 Robert Watts - Trace #23 (1965), 32 mb 13 Robert Watts - Trace #24 (1965), 16 mb 14 Yoko Ono - One (1966), 51 mb 15 Yoko Ono - Eye Blink (1966), 10 mb 16 Yoko Ono - Four (1967), 58 mb 17 Pieter Vanderbeck - Five O'Clock in the Morning (1966), 55 mb 18 Joe Jones - Smoking (1966), 54 mb 19 Erik Andersen - Opus 74 Version 2 (1966), 17 mb 20 George Maciunas - Artype (1966), 29 mb 22 Jeff Perkins - Shout (1966), 23 mb 23 Wolf Vostell - Sun in Your Head (Television Decollage) (1963), 73 mb 24 Albert Fine - Readymade (1966), 34 mb 25 George Landow - The Evil Faerie (1966), 4 mb 26 Paul Sharits - Sears Catalogue 1-3 (1965), 8 mb 27 Paul Sharits - Dots 1 & 2 (1965), 7 mb 28 Paul Sharits - Wirst Trick (1965), 6 mb 29 (unnumbered) Paul Sharits - Unrolling Event (1965), 2 mb 29 Paul Sharits - Word Movie (1966), 39 mb 30 Albert Fine - Dance (1963), 30 mb 31 John Cale - Police Car (1966), 15 mb 36 Peter Kennedy & Mike Parr - Flux Film 36 (1970), 27 mb 37 Peter Kennedy & Mike Parr - Flux Film 37 (1970), 17 mb 38 Ben - Je ne vois rien, je n'entends rien, je ne dis rien (1966), 77 mb 39 Ben - Le Traversee du port de Nice a la nage (1963), 34 mb 40 Ben - Faire un effort (1969), 25 mb 41 Ben - Regardez-moi, cela suffit (1962), 70 mb Robert Frank Pull My Daisy 1959, 188.8 mb (AVI) Ernie Gehr Serene Velocity 1970, 149.8 mb (AVI) Henry Hills Gotham, 1990, 6.9 mb (MOV) Kino Da, 1981, 5.6 mb (MOV) Money, 1985, 47.2 mb (MOV) Radio Adios, 1982, 34.3 mb (MOV) Isidore Isou Venom and Eternity 1951, 763.2 mb (MPG) Joris Ivens Regen 1929, 160.0 mb (AVI) Ken Jacobs Blonde Cobra 1963, 438.9 mb (AVI) Raashan Roland Kirk and John Cage Sound, 1966, 309.0 mb (AVI) Dimitri Kirsanov Menilmontant 1924-25, 350.0 mb (AVI) Peter Kubelka Unsere Afrikareise 1966, 50.4 mb (WMV) George Landow Remedial Readingprehension 1970, 56.4 mb (AVI) Fernand Leger Ballet M?canique 1924, 52.0 mb (AVI) Len Lye A Color Box 1935, 30.5 mb (AVI) Free Radicals 1958, 27.4 mb (AVI) Particles in Space 1966, 21.6 mb (AVI) Rainbow Dance 1936, 39.7 mb (AVI) Trade Tattoo 1937, 54.3 mb (AVI) Gregory Markopoulos Sorrows 1969, 150.0 mb (AVI) Jonas Mekas Hare Krishna 1966, 99.9 mb (AVI) Laszlo Moholy-Nagy Lightplay: Black-White-Grey (excerpt) 1932, 99.9 mb (MOV) Robert Morris & Stan VanDerBeek Site (excerpt) 1964, 19.2 mb (MOV) Otto Muehl Manopsychotisches Ballett, Part 1 1970, 141.1 mb (AVI) Manopsychotisches Ballett, Part 2 1970, 72.1 mb (AVI) Yoko Ono and John Lennon Erection 1971, 180.7 mb (MPEG) Nam June Paik Electronic Moon No. 2 1969, 38.1 mb (MP4) Videotape Study No. 3 1969, 31.1 mb (AVI) Artavazd Pelechian Les habitants 1970, 85.0 mb (AVI) Robert Rauschenberg Linoleum (excerpt) 1967, 27.8 mb (MOV) Man Ray Emak Bakia 1926, 313.8 mb (MPEG) Le Retour ? la raison 1923, 46.2 mb (MPEG) L'?toile de mer 1928, 277.4 mb (MPEG) Hans Richter Everything Turns Everything Resolves 1929, 31.5 mb (AVI) Filmstudie 1925, 32.3 mb (AVI) Rhythm 21 1921, 6.5 mb (MOV) Ghosts Before Breakfast 1928, 60.5 mb (MPEG) Rennsymphonie 1929, 138.6 mb (MPEG) Rhythmus 23 1923, 58.3 mb (MPEG) Zweigroschenzauber 1929, 47.4 mb (MPEG) David Rimmer Variations On A Cellophane Wrapper 1971, 149.2 mb (AVI) Walter Ruttmann Lichtspiel Opus I-4 1971, 34.3 mb (AVI) Carolee Schneeman Fuses 1965, 217.9 mb (MPEG) Richard Serra and Carlotta Schoolman Television Delivers People 1973, 98.3 mb (AVI) Situationist International On The Passage of a Few Persons Through a Rather Brief Period of Time undated, 432.9 mb (AVI) Harry Smith Early-Abstractions 1941-57, 496.3 mb (MPEG) Heaven-and-Earth-Magic 1950-1960, 667.4 mb (MPEG) Late-Superimpositions 1963, 285.8 mb (MPEG) Jack Smith Flaming Creatures 1963, 390.8 mb (AVI) Normal Love 1963, 704.7 mb (AVI) Scotch Tape 1963, 70.1 mb (AVI) Kiki Smith Jewel (excerpt) 1997, 31.3 mb (AVI) Robert Smithson Spiral Jetty (excerpts) 1970, 23.9 mb (AVI) Michael Snow Prelude 2000, 25.8 mb (AVI) Presents 1981, 772.8 mb (AVI) Ladislaw Starewicz The Cameraman's Revenge 1912, 143.2 mb (AVI) The Insect's Christmas 1913, 51.6 mb (AVI) Ralph Steiner H20 1929, 99.1 mb (MPEG) Franciszka and Stefan Themerson The Eye and the Ear 1944, 97.1 mb (AVI) Edgard Var?se and Le Corbusier Po?me ?lectronique 1958, 84.2 mb (MPEG) Dziga Vertov Kino Eye 1924, 699.9 mb (AVI) Three Songs About Lenin 1934, 700.0 mb (AVI) Rene Vienet The Girls of Kamare, Part 1 1974, 440.5 mb (MPEG) The Girls of Kamare, Part 2 1974, 431.9 mb (MPEG) James Whitney Lapis 1966, 131.3 mb (AVI) James and John Whitney Five Film Exercises 1943-44, 83.4 mb (AVI) Zubi Zuva X Suite Europe Live undated, 40.3 mb (AVI) ---------------------------- RELAUNCH :: Fall 2005 ---------------------------- UBUWEB IS ENTIRELY FREE __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com Apologies for cross-postings. Please forward. To Post a message, send it to: ubuweb at eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ubuweb-unsubscribe at eGroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ubuweb/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ubuweb-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From acgold01 at louisville.edu Tue Sep 13 16:16:46 2005 From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:16:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Footnote poems Message-ID: Dear Listmates, For a talk I'm writing, I'd be interested to hear your suggestions--mostly, though not exclusively, for work in the avant / post-avant traditions--for post-WWII poems (or generic hybrids) that incorporate footnotes or other apparatus into the text or in which the text is constructed out of such apparatus. Examples I'm working with so far include work by Charles Olson, ED Dorn, Jack Spicer, Bob Perelman, Brenda Hillman, Juliana Spahr, Brian Kim Stefans, Tyrone Wiliams, Jenny Boully, Eileen Tabios, Barrett Watten, Paul Violi, Jena Osman, Armand Schwerner, Charles Bernstein, Gabriel Gudding. Front or back channel is fine. I won't be doing much with earlier examples in this mode (e.g., Dunciad to Pound, Eliot, Moore), but if you think of some that are particularly striking, well, I'd appreciate hearing of those too. Thanks in advance, Alan Golding From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Sep 13 16:55:36 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:55:36 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [ubuweb] __ U B U W E B __ :: __ RELAUNCH __ References: Message-ID: <00b401c5b8a5$7e109de0$60ee3652@ANNY> That is a good work, Mair?ad. I started reading it while waiting for Samuel Beckett and Scheider Alain_Film_1965 to download and it is still there downloading hopefully before six tomorrow morning when I have to get up, we will see. I enjoyed your work very much, as I usually do, and just Great that UBUWEB does not shut down, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche From: "Mairead Byrne" Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:18 PM > HOORAY!!!!!!! > > ---------------------------- > RELAUNCH :: Fall 2005 > ---------------------------- > > __ U B U W E B __ > http://ubu.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Sep 13 18:31:54 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:31:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004501c5b8b2$f2292780$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I have no idea who said it, Jeff, but thanks. I wasn't sure what to sayin my blog entry today until I saw your quote. It's a perfect example of the kind of absolute slush that so many poets, and poetry commentators indulge in. Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 1:22 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Who Said It? I'll post the answer later this afternoon. No cheating, no "googling." Here we go: "Take a man's mind off the human value of the poem he is reading (and in this case the human value is the art value), switch it on to some question of grammar and you begin his dehumanization." Jeff Newberry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 13 18:41:56 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:41:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [ubuweb] __ U B U W E B __ :: __ RELAUNCH __ Message-ID: In a message dated 9/13/2005 3:19:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbyrne at risd.edu writes: > > HOORAY!!!!!!! > > ---------------------------- > RELAUNCH :: Fall 2005 > ---------------------------- > > > A Bump in the Road: After a long summer of rebuilding, UbuWeb is > back. Very good news...a great resource. BTW, LitStation.com is getting close to web-casting and we relied on a lot a material made available by this site. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Sep 13 19:08:57 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:08:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [ubuweb] __ U B U W E B __ :: __ RELAUNCH __ References: <00b401c5b8a5$7e109de0$60ee3652@ANNY> Message-ID: <007a01c5b8b8$1ed891d0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> For those interested in visual and related poetries at a site less constrictedly academicized than UBUWEB (which is nonetheless a valuable site that I'm glad is back), visit Karl Young's light&dust site at: http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm --Bob G. From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 13 19:11:46 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:11:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! References: <1e6.43b908cd.305873f9@aol.com> Message-ID: <002601c5b8b8$844959a0$02edff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Jim, I don't know what helpful in the context of the Kent project means. As far as I can gather, Kent is an ordinary middle-class Yankee who is playing the literary scene for all he is worth. Me, I'm just a poverty-stricken Brit who apparently is turning into a cult figure among Hungarians, I kid you not, the Leicester poet they say, but I do find the narcissism and egocentric base of the Kent/Gabriel/Behrle/Byrne assault unnerving. They scare me. I recall with the first issue of A Chide's Alphabet Kent sent me the whole fucking lot of the Lacan letters, , I refused them, why? Because it was an attempt to dominate, and I worn't havin' that. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! In a message dated 9/12/2005 2:34:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com writes: In contradistinction, this is what makes the Kent project so sad, so pathetic, what comes across is an inordinate desire to be noticed Dave, I don't think comments like this are helpful. Jim F -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Sep 13 19:42:43 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:42:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! References: <1e6.43b908cd.305873f9@aol.com> <002601c5b8b8$844959a0$02edff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <008b01c5b8bc$d64e5f30$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hey, Dave, I'm big with Hungarians, too! I had a whole chapbook translated into Hungarian, the only thing of mine that's been translated (except a few comments into Spanish, and a few into German for anthologies I got work into). --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 19:50:02 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:50:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com> I meant to post this to the whole list: That's Ezra Pound, from "Provincialism the Enemy," an essay from a collection called *Selected Prose*. (I mistakenly sent the message to Jim Finnegan only. Sorry!) Jeff Newberry On 9/13/05, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > I'll post the answer later this afternoon. No cheating, no "googling." > Here we go: > "Take a man's mind off the human value of the poem he is reading (and in > this case the human value is the art value), switch it on to some question > of grammar and you begin his dehumanization." > Jeff Newberry > > -- > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." > --Miguel de Unamuno > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > > -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Sep 13 20:21:41 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:21:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 13 20:34:59 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 01:34:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com> <00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin> From: Bob Grumman To: jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. Yeah -- though the context was apparently William Cookson's +Selected Prose 1909-1965+ [1973], and I could never see any reason to buy that when I had already bought Eliot's +Literary Essays+ [1954] in the mid-sixties. Eliot didn't include it. But my prejudices are probably showing -- I tend to need to have *some* sort of reason for buying a book. ... and Agenda ... :-) I think the quote predates Pound's economic lunacy -- the Fenellosa period, it comes from -- but maybe Jeff could give us more context, even a page reference? Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 20:42:07 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:42:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? In-Reply-To: <00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com> <00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com> Essentially, Pound is running higher education in the ground in that essay. He suggests that learning hurts artists, at least the kind of institutionalized learning that he's railing against. Incidentally, having read so much Pound lately, I find him an amazing mind. Here's a guy with more knowledge about poetry that nearly anybody in his world. But he comes across as a pedantic twit time and again. He suggests that disagreeing with him equals ignorance, when obviously quite the opposite is true. His dismissal of American art and literature is not surprising, and his gruding respect of Walt Whitman ("Patria Mia") is some of the most back-handed complimenting that I've ever seen. Even the essay "How I Feel about Walt Whitman" is grudingly accepting of Whitman. Pound's politics, however, raise an important question: can one separate an artist from his/her politics? Is there such a thing as "good art" produced by, say, a Nazi? Thoughts? Jeff Newberry On 9/13/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > > About a statement by Pound I consider slush: > Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics > showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement > made more sense in context. > --Bob G. > -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 13 20:52:11 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 01:52:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <008401c5b8c6$8ada39c0$02edff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Rob, I think our American friends won't get the creepy sub-text about Cookson and Agenda, I go nervously quiet in terms of direct reference to all this stuff, you and I might know what it's about, but it's best to keep schtum. Pound's ability to write tripe, or any other offal, was inexhaustible, he rivalled his anti-hero Walt Whitman in that respect. Yet, too, sometimes, both of them wrote good poetry. Funny old world, innit? Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:34 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? From: Bob Grumman To: jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. Yeah -- though the context was apparently William Cookson's +Selected Prose 1909-1965+ [1973], and I could never see any reason to buy that when I had already bought Eliot's +Literary Essays+ [1954] in the mid-sixties. Eliot didn't include it. But my prejudices are probably showing -- I tend to need to have *some* sort of reason for buying a book. ... and Agenda ... :-) I think the quote predates Pound's economic lunacy -- the Fenellosa period, it comes from -- but maybe Jeff could give us more context, even a page reference? Robin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 20:54:43 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:54:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? In-Reply-To: <00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin> References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com> <00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <731bb17a050913175416eea639@mail.gmail.com> Here's the context, from "Provincialism the Enemy" (197): *The moment you teach a man to study literature not for his won delight, b ut for some exterior reason, a reason hidden in vague and cloudy words such as "monuments of scholarship," "exactness," "soundness," etc, "service to scholarship," you begin his destruction, you begin to prepare his mind for all sorts of acts to be undertaken for exterior reasons "of state," etc., without regard to their merit.* ** *The right in the "Lusitania" matter is not a question of "military necessity" . . . or of whter the Germans have a sporting warning . . . , etc; it is simply that "this kind of thing must not happen". The human value as against the rationalistic explanation is alwasy the weightier.* ** *Take a man's mind off the human value of the poem he is reading (and in this case the human value is the art value), switch it on to some question of grammar and you begin his dehumanization.* ** *Such dehumanization went on in the universities of Deutschland, subtly and with many exterior hues.* So, I lied in another message I sent to the list. I said that Pound was running education in the ground. No--in this essay, Pound is arguing, among many other things, the merits of socialism. However, as much as I disagree with his politics, I can see the value of some of what he has to say. Pound goes on in the same essay to argue that one cannot MAKE a man (Pound's pronoun, not mine) enjoy great literature. He must enjoy for its human value. Text: *Selected Prose: 1909-1965*, New Directions, 1973 (William Cookson, ed.) Jeff Newberry On 9/13/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > *From:* Bob Grumman > > *To:* jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &Views > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:21 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? > > About a statement by Pound I consider slush: > Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics > showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement > made more sense in context. > --Bob G. > Yeah -- though the context was apparently William Cookson's +Selected > Prose 1909-1965+ [1973], and I could never see any reason to buy that when I > had already bought Eliot's +Literary Essays+ [1954] in the mid-sixties. > Eliot didn't include it. > But my prejudices are probably showing -- I tend to need to have *some* > sort of reason for buying a book. > ... and Agenda ... > :-) > I think the quote predates Pound's economic lunacy -- the Fenellosa > period, it comes from -- but maybe Jeff could give us more context, even a > page reference? > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 21:00:54 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:00:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? In-Reply-To: <00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin> References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com> <00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <731bb17a05091318001765f912@mail.gmail.com> Robin, The essay "Provincialism the Enemy" appeared in 1917 (in *The New Age).* Pound got Fellnosa's notebooks from Fellonosa's widow in 1913 but didn't publish the Chinese poetry essays ("Chinese Poetry 1 & 2" and "The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry" until 1918 and 1919, respectively. Jeff On 9/13/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > *From:* Bob Grumman > > *To:* jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &Views > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:21 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? > > About a statement by Pound I consider slush: > Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics > showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement > made more sense in context. > --Bob G. > Yeah -- though the context was apparently William Cookson's +Selected > Prose 1909-1965+ [1973], and I could never see any reason to buy that when I > had already bought Eliot's +Literary Essays+ [1954] in the mid-sixties. > Eliot didn't include it. > But my prejudices are probably showing -- I tend to need to have *some* > sort of reason for buying a book. > ... and Agenda ... > :-) > I think the quote predates Pound's economic lunacy -- the Fenellosa > period, it comes from -- but maybe Jeff could give us more context, even a > page reference? > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 13 21:07:51 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 02:07:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin> You want a hiding to nothing, Jeff, try teaching Pound to English (UK) undergraduates. First you have to persuade your Head of Department to let you do it (and not lose your job in the process unless you have tenure track), then you have to get the kids to listen. I know what *doesn't* work -- HSM, Propertious, and the Cantos. Best bet I found was Lustra/Cathay -- you can just about get anybody to listen when you talk about that. Individual poems are of course easier -- Metro and the River Merchant's Wife. I never found any problems with those on a general poetry intro course, especially if you were lucky enough to have a female Chinese student who knew enough about Chinese poetry to discuss the use of female persona. ... but among the five things I discovered from painful experience you *don't* try to teach in the UK was the entire Fairie Queen, all of Castiglione's +Courtier+, Pound, Wallace Stevens, and Robert Graves. Langland wasn't a bundle of laughs either, but oddly enough the only thing I never found any difficulty teaching was Medieval Scottish Poetry -- the kids would arrive with a Rooted Prejudice, and end-up writing all their course work essays and every single exam script on "The Testament of Cresseid". Odd that, but. Well, it was relatively short. Robin (Who was there, did that, and bought the t-shirt of Nessus.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:42 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? Essentially, Pound is running higher education in the ground in that essay. He suggests that learning hurts artists, at least the kind of institutionalized learning that he's railing against. Incidentally, having read so much Pound lately, I find him an amazing mind. Here's a guy with more knowledge about poetry that nearly anybody in his world. But he comes across as a pedantic twit time and again. He suggests that disagreeing with him equals ignorance, when obviously quite the opposite is true. His dismissal of American art and literature is not surprising, and his gruding respect of Walt Whitman ("Patria Mia") is some of the most back-handed complimenting that I've ever seen. Even the essay "How I Feel about Walt Whitman" is grudingly accepting of Whitman. Pound's politics, however, raise an important question: can one separate an artist from his/her politics? Is there such a thing as "good art" produced by, say, a Nazi? Thoughts? Jeff Newberry On 9/13/05, Bob Grumman wrote: About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 13 21:19:57 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 02:19:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin> <008401c5b8c6$8ada39c0$02edff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <00f101c5b8ca$70107b00$21de8a56@Robin> Rob, I think our American friends won't get the creepy sub-text about Cookson and Agenda, I go nervously quiet in terms of direct reference to all this stuff, you and I might know what it's about, but it's best to keep schtum. Well, I do have a copy of the Agenda issue on Pound -- want me to quote it? -- and say what you like against Agenda, they did make a big thing of David Jones. Even printed his watercolours. Got that too somewhere. But you're dead right, a bit of this is UK incestuous. :-( Robin ... but Agenda was always more skin off your nose in England than mine in Scotland. 'Nuff said!!! R Pound's ability to write tripe, or any other offal, was inexhaustible, he rivalled his anti-hero Walt Whitman in that respect. Yet, too, sometimes, both of them wrote good poetry. Funny old world, innit? Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:34 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? From: Bob Grumman To: jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. Yeah -- though the context was apparently William Cookson's +Selected Prose 1909-1965+ [1973], and I could never see any reason to buy that when I had already bought Eliot's +Literary Essays+ [1954] in the mid-sixties. Eliot didn't include it. But my prejudices are probably showing -- I tend to need to have *some* sort of reason for buying a book. ... and Agenda ... :-) I think the quote predates Pound's economic lunacy -- the Fenellosa period, it comes from -- but maybe Jeff could give us more context, even a page reference? Robin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Sep 13 21:30:08 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:30:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com> <00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <011e01c5b8cb$d7efdc60$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >Robin (Who was there, did that, and bought the t-shirt of Nessus.) I read the above at first as "bought the t-shirt off Nessus. What a disappointment to see I misread! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Sep 13 21:35:28 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:35:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <013701c5b8cd$2f9aae80$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >Pound's politics, however, raise an important >question: can one separate an artist from his/her >politics? Is there such a thing as "good art" produced >by, say, a Nazi? I would have trouble believing a true Nazi (which Pound certainly was not) could produce art of value (although he might be better able to produce "good art"--i.e., solid but uninspired art--than a non-Nazi. But many great artists were baffling wrong-headed in other areas, so why not in politics? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 13 21:45:12 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 02:45:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin> <731bb17a05091318001765f912@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002001c5b8ce$30b94870$80008b56@Robin> Jeff: Pound was into Chinese poetry *before* he even came on the Fenellosa texts. Fenellosa's widow picked on Pound to edit her husband's MSS *after* reading "The Jewel Stair's Grievance" in +Persona+, way *before* CATHAY (which was most entirely based on the Fenellosa MSS) was ever published. But there are people on this list who are much more of Pound specialists than either dave or me -- we simply happen to know where some of the corpses this side of the Pond are buried. I fell in love with Pound-the-poet years ago about age 15 and never quite fell out of love. dave has a different take. But we both rate Pound highly. Very. (Though for all of me, Bernard Karlgren was more interesting writing on Chinese idiographs than either Pound or Fenellosa ever was. Fenellosa's day-job was as an art specialist, not as a linguist.) Cheers, Robin (and ta for the expansion. R.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:00 AM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? Robin, The essay "Provincialism the Enemy" appeared in 1917 (in The New Age). Pound got Fellnosa's notebooks from Fellonosa's widow in 1913 but didn't publish the Chinese poetry essays ("Chinese Poetry 1 & 2" and "The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry" until 1918 and 1919, respectively. Jeff On 9/13/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: From: Bob Grumman To: jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. Yeah -- though the context was apparently William Cookson's +Selected Prose 1909-1965+ [1973], and I could never see any reason to buy that when I had already bought Eliot's +Literary Essays+ [1954] in the mid-sixties. Eliot didn't include it. But my prejudices are probably showing -- I tend to need to have *some* sort of reason for buying a book. ... and Agenda ... :-) I think the quote predates Pound's economic lunacy -- the Fenellosa period, it comes from -- but maybe Jeff could give us more context, even a page reference? Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 21:47:22 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:47:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? In-Reply-To: <00f101c5b8ca$70107b00$21de8a56@Robin> References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com> <00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin> <008401c5b8c6$8ada39c0$02edff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <00f101c5b8ca$70107b00$21de8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <33abf275050913184727b03545@mail.gmail.com> Robin, David: Some of your American friends might be interested in learning the creepy subtext we're missing. Or maybe just me, in which case, feel free to backchannel me an essay. -donna On 9/13/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Rob, I think our American friends won't get the creepy sub-text about > Cookson and Agenda, I go nervously quiet in terms of direct reference to all > this stuff, you and I might know what it's about, but it's best to keep > schtum. > Well, I do have a copy of the Agenda issue on Pound -- want me to quote > it? -- and say what you like against Agenda, they did make a big thing of > David Jones. > Even printed his watercolours. > Got that too somewhere. > But you're dead right, a bit of this is UK incestuous. > :-( > Robin > ... but Agenda was always more skin off your nose in England than mine in > Scotland. > 'Nuff said!!! > R > Pound's ability to write tripe, or any other offal, was inexhaustible, he > rivalled his anti-hero Walt Whitman in that respect. Yet, too, sometimes, > both of them wrote good poetry. Funny old world, innit? > > Best > Dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Robin Hamilton > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:34 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? > > *From:* Bob Grumman > > *To:* jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &Views > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:21 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? > > About a statement by Pound I consider slush: > Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics > showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement > made more sense in context. > --Bob G. > Yeah -- though the context was apparently William Cookson's +Selected > Prose 1909-1965+ [1973], and I could never see any reason to buy that when I > had already bought Eliot's +Literary Essays+ [1954] in the mid-sixties. > Eliot didn't include it. > But my prejudices are probably showing -- I tend to need to have *some* > sort of reason for buying a book. > ... and Agenda ... > :-) > I think the quote predates Pound's economic lunacy -- the Fenellosa > period, it comes from -- but maybe Jeff could give us more context, even a > page reference? > > Robin > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 13 21:49:50 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 02:49:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com><00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin> <011e01c5b8cb$d7efdc60$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005601c5b8ce$98d88e70$80008b56@Robin> Sheesh, Bob, works either way, but I'm not *that* old. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:30 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? >Robin (Who was there, did that, and bought the t-shirt of Nessus.) I read the above at first as "bought the t-shirt off Nessus. What a disappointment to see I misread! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 13 22:02:06 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 03:02:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin><008401c5b8c6$8ada39c0$02edff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><00f101c5b8ca$70107b00$21de8a56@Robin> <33abf275050913184727b03545@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008001c5b8d0$4f92b450$80008b56@Robin> Definitely backchannel, Donna -- been ticked-off by the list-moderator once already this week for letting my mouth run away with my discretion. You'd get a more colourful version from dave, but I suspect I may know more. Hm ... Come to think on it ... NO!!! No more, not even raising the name of ... No names, no pack drill. Robin From: Donna Casinghino To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? Robin, David: Some of your American friends might be interested in learning the creepy subtext we're missing. Or maybe just me, in which case, feel free to backchannel me an essay. -donna On 9/13/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: Rob, I think our American friends won't get the creepy sub-text about Cookson and Agenda, I go nervously quiet in terms of direct reference to all this stuff, you and I might know what it's about, but it's best to keep schtum. Well, I do have a copy of the Agenda issue on Pound -- want me to quote it? -- and say what you like against Agenda, they did make a big thing of David Jones. Even printed his watercolours. Got that too somewhere. But you're dead right, a bit of this is UK incestuous. :-( Robin ... but Agenda was always more skin off your nose in England than mine in Scotland. 'Nuff said!!! R Pound's ability to write tripe, or any other offal, was inexhaustible, he rivalled his anti-hero Walt Whitman in that respect. Yet, too, sometimes, both of them wrote good poetry. Funny old world, innit? Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:34 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? From: Bob Grumman To: jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. Yeah -- though the context was apparently William Cookson's +Selected Prose 1909-1965+ [1973], and I could never see any reason to buy that when I had already bought Eliot's +Literary Essays+ [1954] in the mid-sixties. Eliot didn't include it. But my prejudices are probably showing -- I tend to need to have *some* sort of reason for buying a book. ... and Agenda ... :-) I think the quote predates Pound's economic lunacy -- the Fenellosa period, it comes from -- but maybe Jeff could give us more context, even a page reference? Robin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbyrne at risd.edu Tue Sep 13 22:17:05 2005 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:17:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! Message-ID: David, I have not contributed any posts to the Narcissism thread. If the "Byrne" here refers to me, you are simply mistaken. Mairead >>> david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com 09/13/05 7:11 PM >>> Jim, I don't know what helpful in the context of the Kent project means. As far as I can gather, Kent is an ordinary middle-class Yankee who is playing the literary scene for all he is worth. Me, I'm just a poverty-stricken Brit who apparently is turning into a cult figure among Hungarians, I kid you not, the Leicester poet they say, but I do find the narcissism and egocentric base of the Kent/Gabriel/Behrle/Byrne assault unnerving. They scare me. I recall with the first issue of A Chide's Alphabet Kent sent me the whole fucking lot of the Lacan letters, , I refused them, why? Because it was an attempt to dominate, and I worn't havin' that. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! In a message dated 9/12/2005 2:34:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com writes: In contradistinction, this is what makes the Kent project so sad, so pathetic, what comes across is an inordinate desire to be noticed Dave, I don't think comments like this are helpful. Jim F From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 13 23:32:26 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:32:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050913222950.0283e4f8@mail.ilstu.edu> And the contribution (a single post) I made was about the obvious problematic nature of narcissism, not in any way in defense of it, even under the guise of satire, farce, etc. Gabe At 09:17 PM 9/13/2005, Mairead Byrne wrote: >David, I have not contributed any posts to the Narcissism thread. If the >"Byrne" here refers to me, you are simply mistaken. >Mairead > > >>> david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com 09/13/05 7:11 PM >>> >Jim, I don't know what helpful in the context of the Kent project means. >As far as I can gather, Kent is an ordinary middle-class Yankee who is >playing the literary scene for all he is worth. Me, I'm just a >poverty-stricken Brit who apparently is turning into a cult figure among >Hungarians, I kid you not, the Leicester poet they say, but I do find the >narcissism and egocentric base of the Kent/Gabriel/Behrle/Byrne assault >unnerving. They scare me. > >I recall with the first issue of A Chide's Alphabet Kent sent me the whole >fucking lot of the Lacan letters, , I refused them, why? Because it was an >attempt to dominate, and I worn't havin' that. > >Best > >Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JforJames at aol.com > To: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:27 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! > > > In a message dated 9/12/2005 2:34:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com writes: > In contradistinction, this is what makes the Kent project so sad, so > pathetic, what comes across is an inordinate desire to be noticed > Dave, > I don't think comments like this are helpful. > Jim F > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 14 02:17:16 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 07:17:16 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin><008401c5b8c6$8ada39c0$02edff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <00f101c5b8ca$70107b00$21de8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <004d01c5b8f3$f4eec6a0$18e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> I used to have a copy of that too, Rob, it disappeared somewhere between Birmingham and London. Did it not also include some never-befores from Mr Grieve? I speak from memory, which may be faulty. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:19 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? Rob, I think our American friends won't get the creepy sub-text about Cookson and Agenda, I go nervously quiet in terms of direct reference to all this stuff, you and I might know what it's about, but it's best to keep schtum. Well, I do have a copy of the Agenda issue on Pound -- want me to quote it? -- and say what you like against Agenda, they did make a big thing of David Jones. Even printed his watercolours. Got that too somewhere. But you're dead right, a bit of this is UK incestuous. :-( Robin ... but Agenda was always more skin off your nose in England than mine in Scotland. 'Nuff said!!! R Pound's ability to write tripe, or any other offal, was inexhaustible, he rivalled his anti-hero Walt Whitman in that respect. Yet, too, sometimes, both of them wrote good poetry. Funny old world, innit? Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:34 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? From: Bob Grumman To: jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. Yeah -- though the context was apparently William Cookson's +Selected Prose 1909-1965+ [1973], and I could never see any reason to buy that when I had already bought Eliot's +Literary Essays+ [1954] in the mid-sixties. Eliot didn't include it. But my prejudices are probably showing -- I tend to need to have *some* sort of reason for buying a book. ... and Agenda ... :-) I think the quote predates Pound's economic lunacy -- the Fenellosa period, it comes from -- but maybe Jeff could give us more context, even a page reference? Robin -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 14 04:34:07 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:34:07 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c5b8c4$24940b70$21de8a56@Robin><008401c5b8c6$8ada39c0$02edff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><00f101c5b8ca$70107b00$21de8a56@Robin> <33abf275050913184727b03545@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001601c5b907$12e36810$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Itsa da spooks, Donna, need I say more? I dunno if this is such a problem in the US, but, hence my twitches of paranoia, Gabe, Mairead, in the UK (and too in the Antipodes) the murky finger is known to substitute itself for the one that writ, one can say without fear about recently dear and departeds such as Graham Greene, John Betjeman, Stephen Spender, Patrick White, Ian Fleming (obviously) but it's best to keep scthum about those still around, such as x and y. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Casinghino To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? Robin, David: Some of your American friends might be interested in learning the creepy subtext we're missing. Or maybe just me, in which case, feel free to backchannel me an essay. -donna On 9/13/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: Rob, I think our American friends won't get the creepy sub-text about Cookson and Agenda, I go nervously quiet in terms of direct reference to all this stuff, you and I might know what it's about, but it's best to keep schtum. Well, I do have a copy of the Agenda issue on Pound -- want me to quote it? -- and say what you like against Agenda, they did make a big thing of David Jones. Even printed his watercolours. Got that too somewhere. But you're dead right, a bit of this is UK incestuous. :-( Robin ... but Agenda was always more skin off your nose in England than mine in Scotland. 'Nuff said!!! R Pound's ability to write tripe, or any other offal, was inexhaustible, he rivalled his anti-hero Walt Whitman in that respect. Yet, too, sometimes, both of them wrote good poetry. Funny old world, innit? Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:34 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? From: Bob Grumman To: jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. Yeah -- though the context was apparently William Cookson's +Selected Prose 1909-1965+ [1973], and I could never see any reason to buy that when I had already bought Eliot's +Literary Essays+ [1954] in the mid-sixties. Eliot didn't include it. But my prejudices are probably showing -- I tend to need to have *some* sort of reason for buying a book. ... and Agenda ... :-) I think the quote predates Pound's economic lunacy -- the Fenellosa period, it comes from -- but maybe Jeff could give us more context, even a page reference? Robin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 14 04:59:15 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:59:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! References: <1e6.43b908cd.305873f9@aol.com><002601c5b8b8$844959a0$02edff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <008b01c5b8bc$d64e5f30$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004d01c5b90a$958eea70$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> >Hey, Dave, I'm big with Hungarians, too! I had a whole chapbook translated into Hungarian, the only thing of mine that's been translated (except a few comments into Spanish, and a few into German for anthologies I got work into). --Bob G.< cor, I'm jealous, Bob. Have been translated into Icelandic and Italian (the cynical might mutter 'how about English') but not yet into Hungarian. Will get on to Tibor and his mates (g) Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:42 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hey, I got a Review, Too! Hey, Dave, I'm big with Hungarians, too! I had a whole chapbook translated into Hungarian, the only thing of mine that's been translated (except a few comments into Spanish, and a few into German for anthologies I got work into). --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Sep 14 07:26:47 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:26:47 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [ubuweb] __ U B U W E B __ :: __ RELAUNCH __ References: <00b401c5b8a5$7e109de0$60ee3652@ANNY> <007a01c5b8b8$1ed891d0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00c101c5b91f$31d75ed0$a8eb3652@ANNY> Yes, I agree with Bob, thank you for bringing back this incredible site to the List, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome L'enfer, c'est les autres. J. P. Sartre From: "Bob Grumman" Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:08 AM > For those interested in visual and related poetries at a site less > constrictedly academicized than UBUWEB (which is nonetheless a valuable > site that I'm glad is back), visit Karl Young's light&dust site at: > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From MillB at aol.com Wed Sep 14 09:22:45 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:22:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Cliff Becker Message-ID: <1c6.30def227.30597e25@aol.com> Greetings all, Haven't been on the list lately--just returned from England and a side trip to Amsterdam. When sorting through my piles of mails, I was shocked to read that Cliff Becker (former NEA interim director) had died (I believe it was in May). When I got the call, saying that I had received an NEA grant, it was Cliff's voice at the end of the line, calming me down. . .he was very helpful to me, in organizing readings and putting me in touch with other poets. I met him in person once at an AWP conference, but--outside of that--I did not know him personally. He stuck me as a champion of poetry and really came through to manage the NEA during a difficult era for funding. . .so, I just thought I would say a few kind words for the man. Would anyone else would like to post something? His death came suddenly, I think. He was a fairly young man. . . Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Sep 14 09:35:51 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:35:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Cliff Becker Message-ID: In a message dated 9/14/2005 8:23:38 AM Central Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com writes: > Would anyone else would like to post something? > > His death came suddenly, I think. He was a fairly young man. . . > > Mill > He was a good guy, much beloved by his staff. Cliff had a heart attack at home while working out. It was very sad. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 14 10:11:52 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:11:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? Message-ID: <158.58f6e49a.305989a8@aol.com> In a message dated 9/13/2005 9:40:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > I would have trouble believing a true Nazi (which Pound certainly was not) > could produce art of value (although he might be better able to produce "good > art"--i.e., solid but uninspired art--than a non-Nazi. But many great > artists were baffling wrong-headed in other areas, so why not in politics? > > I always want to be believe that artists, at least by & large, are by nature generous in spirit and lacking in prejudice and hate. (The many examples to the contrary are well documented.) Even Hitler was an artist/painter for a time. I want to believe the 'imaginative temperament' requires a broad-minded humanist to give it full vent. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 14 10:20:08 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:20:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Christopher Howell Message-ID: <20b.93630b1.30598b98@aol.com> http://www.thetraveleronline.com/media/paper688/news/2004/11/12/News/Poet-Reveals.New.Book-802424.shtml Poet reveals new book By Brandon Edwards, Staff Writer Published: Friday, November 12, 2004 Article Tools: Page 1 of 1 American poet Christopher Howell performed readings from his new book, "Light's Ladder" and explained Thursday how his life's experiences have influenced his poetry. Howell was introduced by Michael Heffernan from the creative writing program. Heffernan met Howell in the 1970s at the University of Massachusetts. Howell is a member of the Eastern Washington University creative writing department. After relaying his journey to Arkansas to the audience, Howell began reading from his new book. Howell served as a military journalist during the Vietnam War. He describes his experiences in the war as inspiration for many of his works, including the piece "Trusting the Beads." "I find ... I'm writing more narratives now," he said. "I don't know why I am and I'm not going in with intention of writing that way. But I believe there is always some current following through us. If you're wise you follow it." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Sep 14 10:22:36 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:22:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: <158.58f6e49a.305989a8@aol.com> Message-ID: on 9/14/05 9:11 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: I always want to be believe that artists, at least by & large, are by nature generous in spirit and lacking in prejudice and hate. (The many examples to the contrary are well documented.) Even Hitler was an artist/painter for a time. I want to believe the 'imaginative temperament' requires a broad-minded humanist to give it full vent. Finnegan -------------------------- A perennial teaser for the seminar to chew on, I know. . . . One thought is that the way the question is usually framed is perhaps not too helpful: Nazi vs. Good Person, etc. Ezra Pound was a mighty twisty & complicated fellow, with huge amounts of generosity and other virtues, and, as we all know, uncomfortably large amounts of lunacy, stupid prejudice, and arrogance. So binary thinking is a problem. One proposition I sometimes flirt with is that perhaps, by dint of art, folks like Pound are better people than they otherwise might be. In other words, art doesn't necessarily make you Good, but possibly helps you see the way the Better? But that, too, is probably oversimple. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 14 10:21:51 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:21:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "favorite lush uncle, telling wondrous stories" at the Grolier Message-ID: SATURDAY,? SEPTEMBER 17, 2005, 6PM, at the Grolier Poetry Book ? ? ? Shop,? 6 Plympton Street, Harvard Square PETER WORTSMAN, translator from the German of Telegrams of the Soul (archipelago books) by PETER ALTENBERG will read from, discuss,and sign copies of his translation.? Altenberg, born Richard Englander in 1895, was a failed businessman who in his forties took to writing.?? He was influenced by Baudelaire and the necessity of compression by the Austrian invention, the postcard. ... "At his best, that you can't quite believe."? Thomas Welch in Rain Taxi, April, 2005.?? Coffee donated by Toscanini's will be served. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 14 10:24:25 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:24:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "favorite lush uncle, telling wondrous stories" at the Grolier Message-ID: <206.94e94b8.30598c99@aol.com> I messed that up, by clipping out the quote instead of copying... SATURDAY,? SEPTEMBER 17, 2005, 6PM, at the Grolier Poetry Book ? ? ? Shop,? 6 Plympton Street, Harvard Square PETER WORTSMAN, translator from the German of Telegrams of the Soul (archipelago books) by PETER ALTENBERG will read from, discuss,and sign copies of his translation.? Altenberg, born Richard Englander in 1895, was a failed businessman who in his forties took to writing.?? He was influenced by Baudelaire and the necessity of compression by the Austrian invention, the postcard. ... "At his best, he is like a favorite lush uncle, telling wondrous stories that you can't quite believe."? Thomas Welch in Rain Taxi, April, 2005.?? Coffee donated by Toscanini's will be served. In a message dated 9/14/2005 10:22:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Subj: [New-Poetry] "favorite lush uncle, telling wondrous stories" at the > Grolier > Date: 9/14/2005 10:22:26 AM Eastern Standard Time > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply-to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent from the Internet > > > > SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2005, 6PM, at the Grolier Poetry Book > Shop, 6 Plympton Street, Harvard Square > > PETER WORTSMAN, translator from the German of Telegrams of the Soul > (archipelago books) by PETER ALTENBERG will read from, discuss,and sign > copies of his translation. Altenberg, born Richard Englander in 1895, > was a failed businessman who in his forties took to writing. He was > influenced by Baudelaire and the necessity of compression by the > Austrian invention, the postcard. ... "At his best, > that you can't quite believe." Thomas Welch in Rain Taxi, April, 2005. > Coffee donated by Toscanini's will be served. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Sep 14 10:42:08 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:42:08 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rattapallax news Message-ID: <009b01c5b93a$7c63e390$428d3052@ANNY> >From Ran Devineni: Dear Friends: Rattapallax has started a new free podcast featuring some of the best poets, writers, translators, and performers in international literature. Every week, new updates will be available from the magazine's vast catalogue of recordings in English, Spanish, and Portuguese. Here is what is currently available for free: Yusef Komunyakaa : Slam, Dunk & Hook (Rattapallax 6) Dana Gioia : Unsaid (Rattapallax 6) Dael Orlandersmith : untitled (Rattapallax 12) Raul Zurita : Inscripcion 15 (Rattapallax 11, Spanish) Charles Bernstein : Johnny Cake Hollow (Short Fuse) Emily XYZ : Atta Poem (Short Fuse) Bob Holman : She never phoned me back (Short Fuse) Bill Kushner : Gerard (He Dreams of Water) Kate Light: Rules of Sleep (Rattapallax 6) Mark Nickels : This Kindled by Gaude Virgo Salutata (Cicada) Stephanos Papadopoulos : The Stars This Summer (Lost Days) Ron Price : Effigy for the Black Moon (A Small Song Called Ash..) Lamont B. Steptoe : Loud Street (Rattapallax 1) Micheliny Verunschk : Conto (Rattapallax 12, Portuguese) Michael T. Young : Repetitions (Transcription of Daylight) To connect your iTunes to Rattapallax's podcast, copy the RSS feed: http://feeds.feedburner.com/rattapallax To download MP3 files directly: http://www.rattapallax.com/downloads.htm Cheers Ram Devineni Publisher Please send future emails to devineni at rattapallax.com for press devineni at dialoguepoetry.org for UN program -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Sep 14 10:44:41 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:44:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? Message-ID: <146.4c6d25f5.30599159@cs.com> In a message dated 9/14/2005 9:20:43 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > So binary thinking is a problem. One proposition I sometimes flirt with is > that perhaps, by dint of art, folks like Pound are better people than they > otherwise might be. In other words, art doesn't necessarily make you Good, > but possibly helps you see the way the Better? > > But that, too, is probably oversimple. > David, I doubt if Can Grande della Scala was a very nice guy either. A lot of artists have taken their patronage from autocrats. Virgil was one, and Ovid toadied quite a bit as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Sep 14 11:10:49 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:10:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] OT Reply-to munging (Re: Mistaken posting--but never mind!) In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050911223409.01b0bb30@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050910133336.026f2550@mail.ilstu.edu> <6.0.2.0.2.20050911221507.031f4d00@mail.ilstu.edu> <6.0.2.0.2.20050911223409.01b0bb30@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <1126710649.17405.9.camel@malatesta> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 22:47 -0500, Bill Morgan wrote: > Sorry, folks; this was meant to be a private message, but I > didn't pay close enough attention to the reply-address. Sorry, but I can't contain myself any longer. This has now happened three times in a week, and is a very juicy demonstration of why reply-to munging (RTM) is to evil in mailing lists. This is the only ML I subscribe to that uses RTM (and I'm on about 50 mailing lists, mostly techie lists). May I humbly suggest the list owners reconsider the policy. See: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Sep 14 11:35:37 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:35:37 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? References: <146.4c6d25f5.30599159@cs.com> Message-ID: <00c401c5b941$f47aaba0$428d3052@ANNY> There are ways and ways of being, levels of consciousness/awareness. Usually a detached uninvolved attitude _play it cool_ gives great results. One uses words as if they were the plumber's/dentist's tools. Poetry - who says this is a poem? I say it. Every time I read one. I might be misled a couple of times by an author, but then there is a moment in which I finally realize what is behind. Otherwise: there are moments in which a writer is sincere, dialogues openly. That is a poetic moment. Why throw it away. Here might reside the positive side of the binary thought. Otherwise: there is complete corruption and it is hard to try to follow who is who. On the other hand I know some who have not yet given themselves up to cheap "science fiction" or quick word games. That is why we are still here. From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 4:44 PM In a message dated 9/14/2005 9:20:43 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: So binary thinking is a problem. One proposition I sometimes flirt with is that perhaps, by dint of art, folks like Pound are better people than they otherwise might be. In other words, art doesn't necessarily make you Good, but possibly helps you see the way the Better? But that, too, is probably oversimple. David, I doubt if Can Grande della Scala was a very nice guy either. A lot of artists have taken their patronage from autocrats. Virgil was one, and Ovid toadied quite a bit as well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Sep 14 11:42:17 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:42:17 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: New Book in Modern and Contemporary Poetics Message-ID: <00d901c5b942$e38cc200$428d3052@ANNY> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 5:33 PM Subject: New Book in Modern and Contemporary Poetics Dear Colleague, Attached to this e-mail message, please find a pdf file announcing the newest book in the University of Alabama Press's Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series, A Poetics of Impasse in Modern and Comtemporary American Poetry, by Susan M. Schultz. Charles Bernstein and Hank Lazer, editors of the series, thought you would be interested in knowing of its publication. If you would like to purchase a copy for your personal library, the attached flyer includes a 30% discount offer, good through October 28, 2005. As always, we invite you to forward this e-mail or the flyer to any of your colleagues whom you think might be interested, or suggest names and addresses to whom we should add future mailings. Thank you for your time, Dennis Lloyd Assistant Marketing Manager/Publicist University of Alabama Press -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: Schultz flyer.pdf Date: 14 Sep 2005, 9:19 Size: 335647 bytes. Type: Unknown -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Schultz flyer.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 335647 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Sep 14 04:51:07 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 03:51:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Cliff Becker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/14/05 8:35 AM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" wrote: > In a message dated 9/14/2005 8:23:38 AM Central Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com > writes: >> Would anyone else would like to post something? >> >> His death came suddenly, I think. He was a fairly young man. . . >> >> Mill > > He was a good guy, much beloved by his staff. Cliff had a heart attack at > home while working out. It was very sad. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > I worked with Cliff Becker for three days on an NEA panel two summers ago. He was a very nice guy and did his job well there at the Endowment. He was only maybe 40 when he died. It was sad to hear the news of his sudden heart attack. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Sep 14 05:00:17 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 04:00:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: <146.4c6d25f5.30599159@cs.com> Message-ID: On 9/14/05 9:44 AM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" wrote: > In a message dated 9/14/2005 9:20:43 AM Central Daylight Time, > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: >> So binary thinking is a problem. One proposition I sometimes flirt with is >> that perhaps, by dint of art, folks like Pound are better people than they >> otherwise might be. In other words, art doesn't necessarily make you Good, >> but possibly helps you see the way the Better? >> >> But that, too, is probably oversimple. > > David, I doubt if Can Grande della Scala was a very nice guy either. A lot of > artists have taken their patronage from autocrats. Virgil was one, and Ovid > toadied quite a bit as well. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Speaking of Ovid, Virgil and autocrats . . . Here?s a pome on the subject . . . National Endowments >From courtly Maecenas Horace received A rich Sabine farm Peopled by slaves. Silver-tongued Virgil Praised Caesar Augustus, Rome?s Far flung empire, and grew Epic in fame. Light-hearted Ovid Knew Boredom and sorrow First hand, For a few Indelicate words, dying Unreconciled To imperial power In a rude and Barbarous land. One hint of disgust in An age?s corruption Brings exile and shame. Even in this Less than Augustan Age, dangers abound. Think what such patronage Costs, then, Before courting states. Think what Maecenas bestows Along with those green estates. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 14 13:01:14 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:01:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] OT Reply-to munging (Re: Mistaken posting--but never mind!) Message-ID: I'll look into it. 'RTM' is a new term to me. I'll ask my tech help, Len Hatfield, and we'll see if we have a different setting to choose from in the listserv software. Jim F In a message dated 9/14/2005 11:11:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, uche at ogbuji.net writes: X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 22:47 -0500, Bill Morgan wrote: > Sorry, folks; this was meant to be a private message, but I > didn't pay close enough attention to the reply-address. Sorry, but I can't contain myself any longer. This has now happened three times in a week, and is a very juicy demonstration of why reply-to munging (RTM) is to evil in mailing lists. This is the only ML I subscribe to that uses RTM (and I'm on about 50 mailing lists, mostly techie lists). May I humbly suggest the list owners reconsider the policy. See: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 13:09:00 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:09:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: References: <158.58f6e49a.305989a8@aol.com> Message-ID: Mao-Tse Tung and Stalin wrote poetry when they were younger. Quite good ones apparently. Pinochet wasn't an artist at all. Maybe to be a truly successful tyrant you need this extra bit of vision. Chaucer was a diplomat. I wonder what his record speaks of? OTOH, how "good" you are depends, for me, on how forgivable your "crimes" are, and this varies with age to to age. I'm beginning to think that being "good" morally has nothing to do with how good an artist you are (Caravaggio). It's more to do with how much time you can get to practice your art, hence depends more on how much money you can sneak from the "system". Balzac, for example. I don't mean millionaires make better authors, rather, there must be a comfortable level at which a talented person can devote time to art. Looking at his biog, Ezra Pound must have been reasonably well off. You might slaughter kittens in your spare time but that one poem... Roger On 9/14/05, David Graham wrote: > on 9/14/05 9:11 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > > I always want to be believe that artists, at least by & large, are by > nature generous in spirit and lacking in prejudice and hate. (The > many examples to the contrary are well documented.) Even Hitler > was an artist/painter for a time. > I want to believe the 'imaginative temperament' requires > a broad-minded humanist to give it full vent. > Finnegan > -------------------------- > > A perennial teaser for the seminar to chew on, I know. . . . > > One thought is that the way the question is usually framed is perhaps not > too helpful: Nazi vs. Good Person, etc. > > Ezra Pound was a mighty twisty & complicated fellow, with huge amounts of > generosity and other virtues, and, as we all know, uncomfortably large > amounts of lunacy, stupid prejudice, and arrogance. > > So binary thinking is a problem. One proposition I sometimes flirt with is > that perhaps, by dint of art, folks like Pound are better people than they > otherwise might be. In other words, art doesn't necessarily make you Good, > but possibly helps you see the way the Better? > > But that, too, is probably oversimple. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Wed Sep 14 17:23:37 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:23:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] and now this from playmobil Message-ID: <200509142123.j8ELNbIU028863@mail20.atl.registeredsite.com> . and now comes this from playmobil. i suppose this is how it becomes intergenerational. . http://store.playmobilusa.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/ USD/PM_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=i-8G5lY- xEsG5BUYXxoKwJgMzFCP7m1uHcY=?ProductSKU=3172& CategoryName=US_storefront&PLS=0 . gregory st. thomasino, abstract poetry . From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Wed Sep 14 17:39:19 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:39:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] and now this from playmobil, correction Message-ID: <200509142139.j8ELdJ94017363@mail28.atl.registeredsite.com> . and now comes this from playmobil. i suppose this is how it becomes intergenerational. it seems you'll have to copy and paste in the entire url, but it's worth it. believe me. (sorry for that previous error.) . http://store.playmobilusa.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/ USD/PM_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=i-8G5lY- xEsG5BUYXxoKwJgMzFCP7m1uHcY=?ProductSKU=3172& CategoryName=US_storefront&PLS=0 . gregory st. thomasino, abstract poetry (self-deprecatingly) . From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 10:58:12 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:58:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: References: <158.58f6e49a.305989a8@aol.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a050914075837feecbe@mail.gmail.com> Good points, David. I've been studying Pound in-depth this term and I've come to this sort of love-hate relationship with him. He's got an astounding mind and a depth of perception that I envy. His creativity seemed to know no limits--he pushed the boundaries of language far before the poststructuralists began dancing in the academy. However, as you point out, he's arrogant and pedantic and quite frankly, nasty toward a lot of people and systems of thought. I don't know how to resolve the multitude of Pounds that populate my mind. Jeff On 9/14/05, David Graham wrote: > > on 9/14/05 9:11 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > I always want to be believe that artists, at least by & large, are by > nature generous in spirit and lacking in prejudice and hate. (The > many examples to the contrary are well documented.) Even Hitler > was an artist/painter for a time. > I want to believe the 'imaginative temperament' requires > a broad-minded humanist to give it full vent. > > Finnegan > -------------------------- > > A perennial teaser for the seminar to chew on, I know. . . . > > One thought is that the way the question is usually framed is perhaps not > too helpful: Nazi vs. Good Person, etc. > > Ezra Pound was a mighty twisty & complicated fellow, with huge amounts of > generosity and other virtues, and, as we all know, uncomfortably large > amounts of lunacy, stupid prejudice, and arrogance. > > So binary thinking is a problem. One proposition I sometimes flirt with is > that perhaps, by dint of art, folks like Pound are better people than they > otherwise might be. In other words, art doesn't necessarily make you Good, > but possibly helps you see the way the Better? > > But that, too, is probably oversimple. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 10:45:49 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:45:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: References: <158.58f6e49a.305989a8@aol.com> Message-ID: <33abf27505091407454329b413@mail.gmail.com> Everybody can be prejudiced, in some way or another, and I honestly don't think there's anyone who's completely lacking in prejudice and hate. There are always going to be divisions, and there are always going to be reasons for prejudice and hate--just some reasons a lot more valid than others. Humans are, at times, stupid in their beliefs. :) Artists are human. They're not invulnerable to this. Yeats wasn't exactly a fan of the English, and not about to embrace his enemies as brothers. Conrad wasn't terribly generous and virtuous in his portrayal of Africans. Both can be lumped into the hatred/prejudice category. Both are incredible artists in their own right. I don't think you can categorize an artist any more than you can categorize any person. You can argue, there were "good" Nazis too--those who tried to circumvent or take down the regime from the inside. There were some who didn't agree with Hitler at all, but when your choice is between living and dying, you don't always choose the virtuous option. It's hard to draw the line between good and evil when you're living under an insane dictator, so I think Nazis are a bad subject for this argument. History flattens characters and draws a line between good and evil that usually isn't in a person while they're living. In my opinion,"imaginative temperament", as David says, has less to do with benevolent humanism and more to do with sheer energy. I don't think being a good artist makes you by default good and virtuous and generous, or that a good and virtuous person makes by default a good artist. Maybe wonderful art, like absolute power, corrupts absolutely. But perhaps art helps you not to be better but to see that you must work to be better, and instills in you the desire to become so? But we're exploring philosophy now--is that permitted on this list? ;) -donna On 9/14/05, David Graham wrote: > > on 9/14/05 9:11 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > I always want to be believe that artists, at least by & large, are by > nature generous in spirit and lacking in prejudice and hate. (The > many examples to the contrary are well documented.) Even Hitler > was an artist/painter for a time. > I want to believe the 'imaginative temperament' requires > a broad-minded humanist to give it full vent. > > Finnegan > -------------------------- > > A perennial teaser for the seminar to chew on, I know. . . . > > One thought is that the way the question is usually framed is perhaps not > too helpful: Nazi vs. Good Person, etc. > > Ezra Pound was a mighty twisty & complicated fellow, with huge amounts of > generosity and other virtues, and, as we all know, uncomfortably large > amounts of lunacy, stupid prejudice, and arrogance. > > So binary thinking is a problem. One proposition I sometimes flirt with is > that perhaps, by dint of art, folks like Pound are better people than they > otherwise might be. In other words, art doesn't necessarily make you Good, > but possibly helps you see the way the Better? > > But that, too, is probably oversimple. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 10:54:04 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:54:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves In-Reply-To: <00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin> References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com> <00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com> <00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <731bb17a050914075419f9ce11@mail.gmail.com> Graves, too, eh? Talk about that, if you will, Rob. I've just finished reading *Goodbye to all That* and I'm curious. Jeff On 9/13/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > You want a hiding to nothing, Jeff, try teaching Pound to English (UK) > undergraduates. > First you have to persuade your Head of Department to let you do it (and > not lose your job in the process unless you have tenure track), then you > have to get the kids to listen. > I know what *doesn't* work -- HSM, Propertious, and the Cantos. > Best bet I found was Lustra/Cathay -- you can just about get anybody to > listen when you talk about that. > Individual poems are of course easier -- Metro and the River Merchant's > Wife. I never found any problems with those on a general poetry intro > course, especially if you were lucky enough to have a female Chinese student > who knew enough about Chinese poetry to discuss the use of female persona. > ... but among the five things I discovered from painful experience you > *don't* try to teach in the UK was the entire Fairie Queen, all of > Castiglione's +Courtier+, Pound, Wallace Stevens, and Robert Graves. > Langland wasn't a bundle of laughs either, but oddly enough the only > thing I never found any difficulty teaching was Medieval Scottish Poetry -- > the kids would arrive with a Rooted Prejudice, and end-up writing all their > course work essays and every single exam script on "The Testament of > Cresseid". > Odd that, but. > Well, it was relatively short. > Robin > (Who was there, did that, and bought the t-shirt of Nessus.) > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jeff Newberry > *To:* NewPoetry > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:42 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? > > Essentially, Pound is running higher education in the ground in that > essay. > He suggests that learning hurts artists, at least the kind of > institutionalized learning that he's railing against. > Incidentally, having read so much Pound lately, I find him an amazing > mind. Here's a guy with more knowledge about poetry that nearly anybody in > his world. But he comes across as a pedantic twit time and again. He > suggests that disagreeing with him equals ignorance, when obviously quite > the opposite is true. His dismissal of American art and literature is not > surprising, and his gruding respect of Walt Whitman ("Patria Mia") is some > of the most back-handed complimenting that I've ever seen. Even the essay > "How I Feel about Walt Whitman" is grudingly accepting of Whitman. > Pound's politics, however, raise an important question: can one separate > an artist from his/her politics? Is there such a thing as "good art" > produced by, say, a Nazi? > Thoughts? > > Jeff Newberry > > On 9/13/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > About a statement by Pound I consider slush: > > Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics > > showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement > > made more sense in context. > > --Bob G. > > > > > > -- > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." > --Miguel de Unamuno > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 14 19:07:58 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:07:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? References: <158.58f6e49a.305989a8@aol.com> <33abf27505091407454329b413@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1bce01c5b981$277620e0$76018b56@Robin> From: Donna Casinghino << Yeats wasn't exactly a fan of the English, and not about to embrace his enemies as brothers. >> This reminds me of something I've been meaning to post anent this issue, that Auden said in his "Elegy on W.B.Yeats", that seems to me to put it succinctly. Below is a bit from the original version -- all too characteristically, Auden later chopped two stanzas around the issue of Paul Claudel. Bloody typical of Auden to put his finger on it, then renage. But then, I've always preferred Auden before he started revising away the awkward bits of his poems -- let's hear it for The Amazing Vanishing Dildo in the original version of "In Praise of Limestone". Robin III Earth, receive an honoured guest; William Yeats is laid to rest: Let the Irish vessel lie Emptied of its poetry. Time that is intolerant Of the brave and innocent, And indifferent in a week To a beautiful physique, Worships language and forgives Everyone by whom it lives; Pardons cowardice, conceit, Lays its honours at their feet. Time that with this strange excuse Pardoned Kipling and his views, And will pardon Paul Claudel, Pardons him for writing well. In the nightmare of the dark All the dogs of Europe bark, And the living nations wait, Each sequestered in its hate ... From MillB at aol.com Wed Sep 14 19:09:08 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:09:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? Message-ID: <1dd.45840d74.305a0794@aol.com> In the LA Times last Sunday, there was a review that quoted Yeats who declared it was a necessary choice: "Perfection of the life or of the work." Although, mostly, my recognition of that being true is where the poets were bad at business or family life, neglectful with raising children, mental illness, drinking, womanizing, drugs, etc. Not necessarily in the same category of being a nazi. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Wed Sep 14 19:24:57 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:24:57 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Cliff Becker In-Reply-To: <1c6.30def227.30597e25@aol.com> References: <1c6.30def227.30597e25@aol.com> Message-ID: <1126740297.4328b14935f66@webmail.sfsu.edu> Cliff was a kind, smart, politically astute, and big-hearted man and lover of literature. I served on a panel once, and he was a genius at keeping people talking who wouldn't have chosen to work together. I only saw him now and then at the AWP as well, but his death was a shock, and I'll miss him. Maxine Chernoff Quoting MillB at aol.com: > Greetings all, > > Haven't been on the list lately--just returned from England and a side trip > > to Amsterdam. > > When sorting through my piles of mails, I was shocked to read that Cliff > Becker (former NEA interim director) had died (I believe it was in May). > > When I got the call, saying that I had received an NEA grant, it was Cliff's > > voice at the end of the line, calming me down. . .he was very helpful to me, > > in organizing readings and putting me in touch with other poets. I met him > > in person once at an AWP conference, but--outside of that--I did not know > him > personally. He stuck me as a champion of poetry and really came through to > manage the NEA during a difficult era for funding. . .so, I just thought I > would say a few kind words for the man. Would anyone else would like to > post > something? > > His death came suddenly, I think. He was a fairly young man. . . > > Mill > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 14 19:40:16 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:40:16 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com><00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin> <731bb17a050914075419f9ce11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1bf801c5b985$a9f76980$76018b56@Robin> Graves, too, eh? Talk about that, if you will, Rob. I've just finished reading *Goodbye to all That* and I'm curious. Jeff The problem with teaching Graves -- and I'm talking here about specifically UK university teaching, and also leaving aside that Graves was a bloody marvellous poet -- was that he simply didn't fit into any easy category. He should have fitted into the redefinition of English Poetry that I'm old enough to remember, when Hardy moved from being a novelist who also wrote "Neutral Tones" to being seen as one of the major early 20thC English poets, a redefinition that scooped up Clare and moved from him to Larkin. But Graves always was Awkward Squad, too Modernist to be Georgian, too traditional to be Modernist. It's a problem. I can think of lots of other cases, poets I wanted to teach that you simply couldn't -- Stevie Smith is another example. I'm sure there must be parallel cases in the US. Anyway, bottom line, nobody teaches Graves in the UK. Things might change now the Complete Poems are out -- three volumes in hardback if you want the notes and variants, one volume in paper if you're not that bothered, at a nice price and well worth getting. But I doubt it. There's a horrible inertia about who can be taught, and a hell of a lot of it turns on economics, what's available, what books the kids can afford to buy. The Web changed this a bit, but not enough. Inter alia, Graves loathed Pound. There's a crack in Goodbye where Graves describes meeting Pound in Paris and describes his sweaty handshake (and that Pound couldn't box to save his life). Aren't poets petty sometimes? Robin On 9/13/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: You want a hiding to nothing, Jeff, try teaching Pound to English (UK) undergraduates. First you have to persuade your Head of Department to let you do it (and not lose your job in the process unless you have tenure track), then you have to get the kids to listen. I know what *doesn't* work -- HSM, Propertious, and the Cantos. Best bet I found was Lustra/Cathay -- you can just about get anybody to listen when you talk about that. Individual poems are of course easier -- Metro and the River Merchant's Wife. I never found any problems with those on a general poetry intro course, especially if you were lucky enough to have a female Chinese student who knew enough about Chinese poetry to discuss the use of female persona. ... but among the five things I discovered from painful experience you *don't* try to teach in the UK was the entire Fairie Queen, all of Castiglione's +Courtier+, Pound, Wallace Stevens, and Robert Graves. Langland wasn't a bundle of laughs either, but oddly enough the only thing I never found any difficulty teaching was Medieval Scottish Poetry -- the kids would arrive with a Rooted Prejudice, and end-up writing all their course work essays and every single exam script on "The Testament of Cresseid". Odd that, but. Well, it was relatively short. Robin (Who was there, did that, and bought the t-shirt of Nessus.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:42 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? Essentially, Pound is running higher education in the ground in that essay. He suggests that learning hurts artists, at least the kind of institutionalized learning that he's railing against. Incidentally, having read so much Pound lately, I find him an amazing mind. Here's a guy with more knowledge about poetry that nearly anybody in his world. But he comes across as a pedantic twit time and again. He suggests that disagreeing with him equals ignorance, when obviously quite the opposite is true. His dismissal of American art and literature is not surprising, and his gruding respect of Walt Whitman ("Patria Mia") is some of the most back-handed complimenting that I've ever seen. Even the essay "How I Feel about Walt Whitman" is grudingly accepting of Whitman. Pound's politics, however, raise an important question: can one separate an artist from his/her politics? Is there such a thing as "good art" produced by, say, a Nazi? Thoughts? Jeff Newberry On 9/13/05, Bob Grumman wrote: About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Sep 14 21:13:11 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:13:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? References: <158.58f6e49a.305989a8@aol.com> <731bb17a050914075837feecbe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004c01c5b992$a6ec8790$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> A lot of people had relatively little of good to say about James Dickey's humanitarian impulses. Donald Justice, a gentleman in every way, would never actively put someone else down. However, when the movie version of Deliverance came out, he immediately went to see it, so when someone asked if he had read the novel, he could say, "No, but I've seen the movie." Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? Good points, David. I've been studying Pound in-depth this term and I've come to this sort of love-hate relationship with him. He's got an astounding mind and a depth of perception that I envy. His creativity seemed to know no limits--he pushed the boundaries of language far before the poststructuralists began dancing in the academy. However, as you point out, he's arrogant and pedantic and quite frankly, nasty toward a lot of people and systems of thought. I don't know how to resolve the multitude of Pounds that populate my mind. Jeff On 9/14/05, David Graham wrote: on 9/14/05 9:11 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: I always want to be believe that artists, at least by & large, are by nature generous in spirit and lacking in prejudice and hate. (The many examples to the contrary are well documented.) Even Hitler was an artist/painter for a time. I want to believe the 'imaginative temperament' requires a broad-minded humanist to give it full vent. Finnegan -------------------------- A perennial teaser for the seminar to chew on, I know. . . . One thought is that the way the question is usually framed is perhaps not too helpful: Nazi vs. Good Person, etc. Ezra Pound was a mighty twisty & complicated fellow, with huge amounts of generosity and other virtues, and, as we all know, uncomfortably large amounts of lunacy, stupid prejudice, and arrogance. So binary thinking is a problem. One proposition I sometimes flirt with is that perhaps, by dint of art, folks like Pound are better people than they otherwise might be. In other words, art doesn't necessarily make you Good, but possibly helps you see the way the Better? But that, too, is probably oversimple. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Sep 14 21:17:22 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:17:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com><00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin><731bb17a050914075419f9ce11@mail.gmail.com> <1bf801c5b985$a9f76980$76018b56@Robin> Message-ID: <00b401c5b993$3cfc5cb0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> I've taught Sassoon. Does that count? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Graves Graves, too, eh? Talk about that, if you will, Rob. I've just finished reading *Goodbye to all That* and I'm curious. Jeff The problem with teaching Graves -- and I'm talking here about specifically UK university teaching, and also leaving aside that Graves was a bloody marvellous poet -- was that he simply didn't fit into any easy category. He should have fitted into the redefinition of English Poetry that I'm old enough to remember, when Hardy moved from being a novelist who also wrote "Neutral Tones" to being seen as one of the major early 20thC English poets, a redefinition that scooped up Clare and moved from him to Larkin. But Graves always was Awkward Squad, too Modernist to be Georgian, too traditional to be Modernist. It's a problem. I can think of lots of other cases, poets I wanted to teach that you simply couldn't -- Stevie Smith is another example. I'm sure there must be parallel cases in the US. Anyway, bottom line, nobody teaches Graves in the UK. Things might change now the Complete Poems are out -- three volumes in hardback if you want the notes and variants, one volume in paper if you're not that bothered, at a nice price and well worth getting. But I doubt it. There's a horrible inertia about who can be taught, and a hell of a lot of it turns on economics, what's available, what books the kids can afford to buy. The Web changed this a bit, but not enough. Inter alia, Graves loathed Pound. There's a crack in Goodbye where Graves describes meeting Pound in Paris and describes his sweaty handshake (and that Pound couldn't box to save his life). Aren't poets petty sometimes? Robin On 9/13/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: You want a hiding to nothing, Jeff, try teaching Pound to English (UK) undergraduates. First you have to persuade your Head of Department to let you do it (and not lose your job in the process unless you have tenure track), then you have to get the kids to listen. I know what *doesn't* work -- HSM, Propertious, and the Cantos. Best bet I found was Lustra/Cathay -- you can just about get anybody to listen when you talk about that. Individual poems are of course easier -- Metro and the River Merchant's Wife. I never found any problems with those on a general poetry intro course, especially if you were lucky enough to have a female Chinese student who knew enough about Chinese poetry to discuss the use of female persona. ... but among the five things I discovered from painful experience you *don't* try to teach in the UK was the entire Fairie Queen, all of Castiglione's +Courtier+, Pound, Wallace Stevens, and Robert Graves. Langland wasn't a bundle of laughs either, but oddly enough the only thing I never found any difficulty teaching was Medieval Scottish Poetry -- the kids would arrive with a Rooted Prejudice, and end-up writing all their course work essays and every single exam script on "The Testament of Cresseid". Odd that, but. Well, it was relatively short. Robin (Who was there, did that, and bought the t-shirt of Nessus.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:42 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? Essentially, Pound is running higher education in the ground in that essay. He suggests that learning hurts artists, at least the kind of institutionalized learning that he's railing against. Incidentally, having read so much Pound lately, I find him an amazing mind. Here's a guy with more knowledge about poetry that nearly anybody in his world. But he comes across as a pedantic twit time and again. He suggests that disagreeing with him equals ignorance, when obviously quite the opposite is true. His dismissal of American art and literature is not surprising, and his gruding respect of Walt Whitman ("Patria Mia") is some of the most back-handed complimenting that I've ever seen. Even the essay "How I Feel about Walt Whitman" is grudingly accepting of Whitman. Pound's politics, however, raise an important question: can one separate an artist from his/her politics? Is there such a thing as "good art" produced by, say, a Nazi? Thoughts? Jeff Newberry On 9/13/05, Bob Grumman wrote: About a statement by Pound I consider slush: Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement made more sense in context. --Bob G. -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 21:23:54 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:23:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves In-Reply-To: <1bf801c5b985$a9f76980$76018b56@Robin> References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com> <00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com> <00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin> <731bb17a050914075419f9ce11@mail.gmail.com> <1bf801c5b985$a9f76980$76018b56@Robin> Message-ID: <731bb17a050914182364f5efc3@mail.gmail.com> I don't recall the specific scene in *Good-bye to all that,* but someone introduces Graves and Pound, whispering to Graves, "This is Ezra Pound. You two won't like each other." Thanks, Rob. Your comments are insightful, and I couldn't agree more. Poets that I love that I find hard to teach? Let's see: well, there's Blake, for one. Even his *Songs* can be incredibly complex. But, probably the best example is Wallace Stevens. I love what he's doing and I love the sounds of his words, the way they come together to form these word images in my mind. But my undergrads think that he's hard. And I suppose that he is. Jeff On 9/14/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Graves, too, eh? > Talk about that, if you will, Rob. I've just finished reading *Goodbye to > all That* and I'm curious. > Jeff > The problem with teaching Graves -- and I'm talking here about > specifically UK university teaching, and also leaving aside that Graves was > a bloody marvellous poet -- was that he simply didn't fit into any easy > category. > He *should* have fitted into the redefinition of English Poetry that I'm > old enough to remember, when Hardy moved from being a novelist who also > wrote "Neutral Tones" to being seen as one of the major early 20thC English > poets, a redefinition that scooped up Clare and moved from him to Larkin. > But Graves always was Awkward Squad, too Modernist to be Georgian, too > traditional to be Modernist. > It's a problem. > I can think of lots of other cases, poets I wanted to teach that you > simply couldn't -- Stevie Smith is another example. I'm sure there must be > parallel cases in the US. > Anyway, bottom line, nobody teaches Graves in the UK. > Things might change now the Complete Poems are out -- three volumes in > hardback if you want the notes and variants, one volume in paper if you're > not that bothered, at a nice price and well worth getting. > But I doubt it. > There's a horrible inertia about who can be taught, and a hell of a lot > of it turns on economics, what's available, what books the kids can afford > to buy. The Web changed this a bit, but not enough. > Inter alia, Graves loathed Pound. There's a crack in Goodbye where Graves > describes meeting Pound in Paris and describes his sweaty handshake (and > that Pound couldn't box to save his life). > Aren't poets petty sometimes? > Robin > > > > On 9/13/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > > > You want a hiding to nothing, Jeff, try teaching Pound to English (UK) > > undergraduates. > > First you have to persuade your Head of Department to let you do it > > (and not lose your job in the process unless you have tenure track), then > > you have to get the kids to listen. > > I know what *doesn't* work -- HSM, Propertious, and the Cantos. > > Best bet I found was Lustra/Cathay -- you can just about get anybody to > > listen when you talk about that. > > Individual poems are of course easier -- Metro and the River Merchant's > > Wife. I never found any problems with those on a general poetry intro > > course, especially if you were lucky enough to have a female Chinese student > > who knew enough about Chinese poetry to discuss the use of female persona. > > ... but among the five things I discovered from painful experience you > > *don't* try to teach in the UK was the entire Fairie Queen, all of > > Castiglione's +Courtier+, Pound, Wallace Stevens, and Robert Graves. > > Langland wasn't a bundle of laughs either, but oddly enough the only > > thing I never found any difficulty teaching was Medieval Scottish Poetry -- > > the kids would arrive with a Rooted Prejudice, and end-up writing all their > > course work essays and every single exam script on "The Testament of > > Cresseid". > > Odd that, but. > > Well, it was relatively short. > > Robin > > (Who was there, did that, and bought the t-shirt of Nessus.) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Jeff Newberry > > *To:* NewPoetry > > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:42 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Who Said It? > > > > Essentially, Pound is running higher education in the ground in that > > essay. > > He suggests that learning hurts artists, at least the kind of > > institutionalized learning that he's railing against. > > Incidentally, having read so much Pound lately, I find him an amazing > > mind. Here's a guy with more knowledge about poetry that nearly anybody in > > his world. But he comes across as a pedantic twit time and again. He > > suggests that disagreeing with him equals ignorance, when obviously quite > > the opposite is true. His dismissal of American art and literature is not > > surprising, and his gruding respect of Walt Whitman ("Patria Mia") is some > > of the most back-handed complimenting that I've ever seen. Even the essay > > "How I Feel about Walt Whitman" is grudingly accepting of Whitman. > > Pound's politics, however, raise an important question: can one > > separate an artist from his/her politics? Is there such a thing as "good > > art" produced by, say, a Nazi? > > Thoughts? > > > > Jeff Newberry > > > > On 9/13/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > About a statement by Pound I consider slush: > > > Interesting. Now I can add to my entry. It shows, as his economics > > > showed, that a Major Poet can write tripe. Although I suspect the statement > > > made more sense in context. > > > --Bob G. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." > > --Miguel de Unamuno > > > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > -- > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." > --Miguel de Unamuno > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 21:50:21 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:50:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets in New Orleans Message-ID: <731bb17a0509141850397ce6b2@mail.gmail.com> >From Michael Piech: Dear Friends, We received this email from Robin Kemp. Please do what you can to assist. Regards, Michael Peich I encourage poets to do something helpful for my fellow poets in New Orleans. Please see http://hurricanepoetscheckin.blogspot.com/ for how you can help. We need to RAISE MONEY FOR: 1) Red Cross and 2) DIRECT RELIEF FOR POETS ON THE HURRICANE POETS CHECK IN BLOG. Please do not collect TANGIBLE items like food and clothing JUST YET. Please coordinate with Amy Tan via Writers4Relief at aol.com These are my friends and colleagues and neighbors. Many have lost EVERYTHING. Please advise Poetry Atlanta, Word Diversity, Java Monkey, Poets & Writers, PSA, everyone. Also be aware that Yusef Komunyakaa and Natasha Trethewey are from the Gulf Coast and may have relatives missing or in need. Many thanks, Robin Prof. Michael Peich, Director West Chester University Poetry Center Department of English West Chester University West Chester, PA 19383 610.436.3235 mpeich at wcupa.edu Jeff Newberry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 14 21:52:10 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 02:52:10 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com><00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin><731bb17a050914075419f9ce11@mail.gmail.com><1bf801c5b985$a9f76980$76018b56@Robin> <00b401c5b993$3cfc5cb0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <1cb101c5b998$17439600$76018b56@Robin> Tad said: I've taught Sassoon. Does that count? No -- try teaching Rosenberg. Or Ivor Gurney. Robin For god's sake, it's not +that+ difficult teaching Sassoon. :-( "Thank-you, thank you, the General said ..." Try teaching Rosenberg's "Louse Hunting in the Trenches" -- that stops the kids short. Sassoon was a propagandist poet, one of the best, but he *never* rose above propaganda. Saki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Sep 14 22:04:03 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:04:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can misogynists play beautifully? Message-ID: Here's one of my poems, not about poetry, but reflecting a bit on the phenomenon of beautiful music issuing from less than beautiful people. Among other things. Old Folks --Miles Davis quintet, 1961 A minute into Miles' languid muted solo, that floating bedroom tone pulling the shades on anything else I was planning tonight, someone's chair squeaks, filling one of those legendary chasms between notes with a sound I might make any night. Why do I feel such strange camaraderie with these invisible men, this kinship of squeak or sigh intruding upon velvet moonstruck melancholy? Why love this tune all the more for a blemish I never caught on my old vinyl, now exposed in digital day? Why does it move me so, my own chair groaning as I reach to boost the volume for Hank Mobley's hungering solo? Mobley, Wynton Kelly, Philly Joe Jones, Paul Chambers and Miles, too?all dead now, but what would it matter to this night if the whole combo were appearing tomorrow in the Village, old men adjusting arthritic bones in their stiff chairs, not minding the workaday noise that undergirds all song? And Miles himself: why am I tempted to something like love for this whispery harsh cat I would have hated in the flesh? Just a man, a man reaching into the dark for the next unutterable note, which slips away, always, in quicksilver and smoke, like the old folks themselves, who gossip behind this sad melody, call-and-response of the living and the dead. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Sep 14 22:17:17 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:17:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Can misogynists play beautifully? Message-ID: <1d5.446c545a.305a33ad@cs.com> Speaking of Nazi artists, I saw Ed Harris and Daniel Massey in a good play some years back, Taking Sides, about the career of the conductor Furtwangler. It raised many of the questions that are being asked here. Didn't definitively answer them either, as I recall. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Sep 14 22:21:13 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:21:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Can misogynists play beautifully? Message-ID: <20a.95a78e4.305a3499@cs.com> A good online piece about Furtwangler. http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/furtwangler.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 14 23:06:19 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 04:06:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com><00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin><731bb17a050914075419f9ce11@mail.gmail.com><1bf801c5b985$a9f76980$76018b56@Robin><00b401c5b993$3cfc5cb0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> <1cb101c5b998$17439600$76018b56@Robin> Message-ID: <018e01c5b9a2$839b9820$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Interested here, Rob, why is there a societal need for poets to be taught? I just read them, meself, probably because I was an idiot from Birmingham, so I didn't know any better. I do like the notion of teaching Rosenberg, it might be a bit after the point, me ducks, as he got somewhat busy being vaporised by a Jerry shell on an All Fools Day (only Rosenberg could have managed that). Anyhow, the monks were giggling. Best (with a wink) Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:52 AM Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] Graves Tad said: I've taught Sassoon. Does that count? No -- try teaching Rosenberg. Or Ivor Gurney. Robin For god's sake, it's not +that+ difficult teaching Sassoon. :-( "Thank-you, thank you, the General said ..." Try teaching Rosenberg's "Louse Hunting in the Trenches" -- that stops the kids short. Sassoon was a propagandist poet, one of the best, but he *never* rose above propaganda. Saki ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 14 23:54:50 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 04:54:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com><00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin><731bb17a050914075419f9ce11@mail.gmail.com><1bf801c5b985$a9f76980$76018b56@Robin><00b401c5b993$3cfc5cb0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ><1cb101c5b998$17439600$76018b56@Robin> <018e01c5b9a2$839b9820$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <1d6101c5b9a9$39e556b0$76018b56@Robin> it might be a bit after the point, me ducks, as he got somewhat busy being vaporised by a Jerry shell on an All Fools Day (only Rosenberg could have managed that). Saki managed the same thing: "Put out that bloody cigarette!" Actually, if I'd a time machine, it'd be a toss-up whether I'd have rescued Rosenberg or Monro. Really, no question -- who the fuck cares what happened to a novelist? I'd have rescued Rosenberg. THAT was easily one of the worst the worst consequences of WWI -- nasty little middle class London jew boy, and we're paying for it still. Rosenberg was the best by miles, and we're still paying now. There's a hole in our history that that would have filled by him. :-( R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 15 00:13:10 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 05:13:10 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com><00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin><731bb17a050914075419f9ce11@mail.gmail.com><1bf801c5b985$a9f76980$76018b56@Robin><00b401c5b993$3cfc5cb0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ><1cb101c5b998$17439600$76018b56@Robin><018e01c5b9a2$839b9820$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <1d6101c5b9a9$39e556b0$76018b56@Robin> Message-ID: <01af01c5b9ab$c92cf4c0$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> >There's a hole in our history that that would have filled by him.< Dead right, Rob, so to speak. Incidentally, why are we writing in red? best Davo ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:54 AM Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] Graves it might be a bit after the point, me ducks, as he got somewhat busy being vaporised by a Jerry shell on an All Fools Day (only Rosenberg could have managed that). Saki managed the same thing: "Put out that bloody cigarette!" Actually, if I'd a time machine, it'd be a toss-up whether I'd have rescued Rosenberg or Monro. Really, no question -- who the fuck cares what happened to a novelist? I'd have rescued Rosenberg. THAT was easily one of the worst the worst consequences of WWI -- nasty little middle class London jew boy, and we're paying for it still. Rosenberg was the best by miles, and we're still paying now. There's a hole in our history that that would have filled by him. :-( R. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Sep 15 00:15:50 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:15:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves In-Reply-To: <1d6101c5b9a9$39e556b0$76018b56@Robin> Message-ID: To Juan at the Winter Solstice There is one story and one story only That will prove worth your telling, Whether as learned bard or gifted child; To it all lines or lesser gauds belong That startle with their shining Such common stories as they stray into. Is it of trees you tell, their months and virtues, Or strange beasts that beset you, Of birds that croak at you the Triple will? Or of the Zodiac and how slow it turns Below the Boreal Crown, Prison to all true kings that ever reigned? Water to water, ark again to ark, >From woman back to woman: So each new victim treads unfalteringly The never altered circuit of his fate, Bringing twelve peers as witness Both to his starry rise and starry fall. Or is it of the Virgin's silver beauty, All fish below the thighs? She in her left hand bears a leafy quince; When, with her right hand she crooks a finger, smiling, How many the King hold back? Royally then he barters life for love. Or of the undying snake from chaos hatched, Whose coils contain the ocean, Into whose chops with naked sword he springs, Then in black water, tangled by the reeds, Battles three days and nights, To be spewed up beside her scalloped shore? Much snow if falling, winds roar hollowly, The owl hoots from the elder, Fear in your heart cries to the loving-cup: Sorrow to sorrow as the sparks fly upward. The log groans and confesses: There is one story and one story only. Dwell on her graciousness, dwell on her smiling, Do not forget what flowers The great boar trampled down in ivy time. Her brow was creamy as the crested wave, Her sea-blue eyes were wild But nothing promised that is not performed. --Robert Graves ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 15 00:45:03 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 05:45:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: Message-ID: <01db01c5b9b0$3d314930$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> GravesIt has great rhythm, David. It also wears mascara, in fact, as a poem, it's a bit of a tart. One of my marker phrases from poetry is from the inimitable WS - 'when not to be receives reproach of being' and by that standard the Graves is rather gaudy, somewhat. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:15 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves To Juan at the Winter Solstice There is one story and one story only That will prove worth your telling, Whether as learned bard or gifted child; To it all lines or lesser gauds belong That startle with their shining Such common stories as they stray into. Is it of trees you tell, their months and virtues, Or strange beasts that beset you, Of birds that croak at you the Triple will? Or of the Zodiac and how slow it turns Below the Boreal Crown, Prison to all true kings that ever reigned? Water to water, ark again to ark, >From woman back to woman: So each new victim treads unfalteringly The never altered circuit of his fate, Bringing twelve peers as witness Both to his starry rise and starry fall. Or is it of the Virgin's silver beauty, All fish below the thighs? She in her left hand bears a leafy quince; When, with her right hand she crooks a finger, smiling, How many the King hold back? Royally then he barters life for love. Or of the undying snake from chaos hatched, Whose coils contain the ocean, Into whose chops with naked sword he springs, Then in black water, tangled by the reeds, Battles three days and nights, To be spewed up beside her scalloped shore? Much snow if falling, winds roar hollowly, The owl hoots from the elder, Fear in your heart cries to the loving-cup: Sorrow to sorrow as the sparks fly upward. The log groans and confesses: There is one story and one story only. Dwell on her graciousness, dwell on her smiling, Do not forget what flowers The great boar trampled down in ivy time. Her brow was creamy as the crested wave, Her sea-blue eyes were wild But nothing promised that is not performed. --Robert Graves ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 15 02:03:15 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:03:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: Message-ID: <1df901c5b9bb$2c3d87a0$76018b56@Robin> "To Juan at the Winter Solstice" It's also, if you look at it, a load of total shite. God preserve us from Graves' Goddess Poems. Why do people persist in quoting Graves' worst poems? Try this. Robin. The Cool Web By Robert Graves Children are dumb to say how hot the day is, How hot the scent is of the summer rose, How dreadful the black wastes of evening sky, How dreadful the tall soldiers drumming by. But we have speech, to chill the angry day, And speech, to dull the roses's cruel scent, We spell away the overhanging night, We spell away the soldiers and the fright. There's a cool web of language winds us in, Retreat from too much joy or too much fear: We grow sea-green at last and coldly die In brininess and volubility. But if we let our tongues lose self-possession, Throwing off language and its watery clasp Before our death, instead of when death comes, Facing the wide glare of the children's day, Facing the rose, the dark sky and the drums, We shall go mad, no doubt, and die that way. **************** ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:15 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves To Juan at the Winter Solstice There is one story and one story only That will prove worth your telling, Whether as learned bard or gifted child; To it all lines or lesser gauds belong That startle with their shining Such common stories as they stray into. Is it of trees you tell, their months and virtues, Or strange beasts that beset you, Of birds that croak at you the Triple will? Or of the Zodiac and how slow it turns Below the Boreal Crown, Prison to all true kings that ever reigned? Water to water, ark again to ark, >From woman back to woman: So each new victim treads unfalteringly The never altered circuit of his fate, Bringing twelve peers as witness Both to his starry rise and starry fall. Or is it of the Virgin's silver beauty, All fish below the thighs? She in her left hand bears a leafy quince; When, with her right hand she crooks a finger, smiling, How many the King hold back? Royally then he barters life for love. Or of the undying snake from chaos hatched, Whose coils contain the ocean, Into whose chops with naked sword he springs, Then in black water, tangled by the reeds, Battles three days and nights, To be spewed up beside her scalloped shore? Much snow if falling, winds roar hollowly, The owl hoots from the elder, Fear in your heart cries to the loving-cup: Sorrow to sorrow as the sparks fly upward. The log groans and confesses: There is one story and one story only. Dwell on her graciousness, dwell on her smiling, Do not forget what flowers The great boar trampled down in ivy time. Her brow was creamy as the crested wave, Her sea-blue eyes were wild But nothing promised that is not performed. --Robert Graves ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 15 06:01:37 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:01:37 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: <1df901c5b9bb$2c3d87a0$76018b56@Robin> Message-ID: <01ef01c5b9dc$76d06640$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Rob, you're getting as diplomatic as me! My vote too for The Cool Web. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Graves > "To Juan at the Winter Solstice" > > It's also, if you look at it, a load of total shite. > > God preserve us from Graves' Goddess Poems. > > Why do people persist in quoting Graves' worst poems? > > Try this. > > Robin. > > The Cool Web > By Robert Graves > > Children are dumb to say how hot the day is, > How hot the scent is of the summer rose, > How dreadful the black wastes of evening sky, > How dreadful the tall soldiers drumming by. > > But we have speech, to chill the angry day, > And speech, to dull the roses's cruel scent, > We spell away the overhanging night, > We spell away the soldiers and the fright. > > There's a cool web of language winds us in, > Retreat from too much joy or too much fear: > We grow sea-green at last and coldly die > In brininess and volubility. > > But if we let our tongues lose self-possession, > Throwing off language and its watery clasp > Before our death, instead of when death comes, > Facing the wide glare of the children's day, > Facing the rose, the dark sky and the drums, > We shall go mad, no doubt, and die that way. > > **************** > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Graham > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:15 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves > > To Juan at the Winter Solstice > > There is one story and one story only > That will prove worth your telling, > Whether as learned bard or gifted child; > To it all lines or lesser gauds belong > That startle with their shining > Such common stories as they stray into. > > Is it of trees you tell, their months and virtues, > Or strange beasts that beset you, > Of birds that croak at you the Triple will? > Or of the Zodiac and how slow it turns > Below the Boreal Crown, > Prison to all true kings that ever reigned? > > Water to water, ark again to ark, > >From woman back to woman: > So each new victim treads unfalteringly > The never altered circuit of his fate, > Bringing twelve peers as witness > Both to his starry rise and starry fall. > > Or is it of the Virgin's silver beauty, > All fish below the thighs? > She in her left hand bears a leafy quince; > When, with her right hand she crooks a finger, smiling, > How many the King hold back? > Royally then he barters life for love. > > Or of the undying snake from chaos hatched, > Whose coils contain the ocean, > Into whose chops with naked sword he springs, > Then in black water, tangled by the reeds, > Battles three days and nights, > To be spewed up beside her scalloped shore? > > Much snow if falling, winds roar hollowly, > The owl hoots from the elder, > Fear in your heart cries to the loving-cup: > Sorrow to sorrow as the sparks fly upward. > The log groans and confesses: > There is one story and one story only. > > Dwell on her graciousness, dwell on her smiling, > Do not forget what flowers > The great boar trampled down in ivy time. > Her brow was creamy as the crested wave, > Her sea-blue eyes were wild > But nothing promised that is not performed. > > --Robert Graves > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 15 06:21:20 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:21:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: <1df901c5b9bb$2c3d87a0$76018b56@Robin> Message-ID: <020001c5b9df$40902040$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> To be more objective about "To Juan' my feeling about it always (and, gawd, it must be over thirty five years ago that I first read it) is that the rhythm is luscious, seductive, enough to make one feel that this should be a great poem. But that it ain't. Though it has da beat, brother, its imagery and psychology remind one of what the girls call getting tarted up, that is to say it's a poem about to go out on a Saturday night and see who will buy it a drink, if it stands at the bar fluttering eyelids, it is also so submissive one wants to throw a brick through its imaginary window. 'The Cool Web' though is another story (disproving there is only one). Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Graves > "To Juan at the Winter Solstice" > > It's also, if you look at it, a load of total shite. > > God preserve us from Graves' Goddess Poems. > > Why do people persist in quoting Graves' worst poems? > > Try this. > > Robin. > > The Cool Web > By Robert Graves > > Children are dumb to say how hot the day is, > How hot the scent is of the summer rose, > How dreadful the black wastes of evening sky, > How dreadful the tall soldiers drumming by. > > But we have speech, to chill the angry day, > And speech, to dull the roses's cruel scent, > We spell away the overhanging night, > We spell away the soldiers and the fright. > > There's a cool web of language winds us in, > Retreat from too much joy or too much fear: > We grow sea-green at last and coldly die > In brininess and volubility. > > But if we let our tongues lose self-possession, > Throwing off language and its watery clasp > Before our death, instead of when death comes, > Facing the wide glare of the children's day, > Facing the rose, the dark sky and the drums, > We shall go mad, no doubt, and die that way. > > **************** > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Graham > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:15 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves > > To Juan at the Winter Solstice > > There is one story and one story only > That will prove worth your telling, > Whether as learned bard or gifted child; > To it all lines or lesser gauds belong > That startle with their shining > Such common stories as they stray into. > > Is it of trees you tell, their months and virtues, > Or strange beasts that beset you, > Of birds that croak at you the Triple will? > Or of the Zodiac and how slow it turns > Below the Boreal Crown, > Prison to all true kings that ever reigned? > > Water to water, ark again to ark, > >From woman back to woman: > So each new victim treads unfalteringly > The never altered circuit of his fate, > Bringing twelve peers as witness > Both to his starry rise and starry fall. > > Or is it of the Virgin's silver beauty, > All fish below the thighs? > She in her left hand bears a leafy quince; > When, with her right hand she crooks a finger, smiling, > How many the King hold back? > Royally then he barters life for love. > > Or of the undying snake from chaos hatched, > Whose coils contain the ocean, > Into whose chops with naked sword he springs, > Then in black water, tangled by the reeds, > Battles three days and nights, > To be spewed up beside her scalloped shore? > > Much snow if falling, winds roar hollowly, > The owl hoots from the elder, > Fear in your heart cries to the loving-cup: > Sorrow to sorrow as the sparks fly upward. > The log groans and confesses: > There is one story and one story only. > > Dwell on her graciousness, dwell on her smiling, > Do not forget what flowers > The great boar trampled down in ivy time. > Her brow was creamy as the crested wave, > Her sea-blue eyes were wild > But nothing promised that is not performed. > > --Robert Graves > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From rog3r.day at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 06:31:00 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:31:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: <1dd.45840d74.305a0794@aol.com> References: <1dd.45840d74.305a0794@aol.com> Message-ID: Yeats supported the Blue Shirts - the Irish fascists. According to my source, he did this from 1933 to 1939, although a search on google tries to de-emphasize his involvement. Apologists say that he did not know the true extent of the Nazi atrocities - well, possibly. Kristalnacht and the euthanasia of the mentally ill in Germany occurred well before 1939. People with eyes and ears knew what was going on. [1] One could say that Yeats' work paralleled Wagners - the mysticism, the use of mythology, the involvement with nationalism in their respective countries. One of the big differences is that Yeats is free of the Jewish question. I guess there's a point here where one's art and life coincide and merge, messily. The artificial separation of life and work is attractive, but not sustainable at points of pressure. So, to answer the original question, can Nazis be good poets, I guess Yeats would be a candidate for a fascist being a good poet. Technically, you couldn't call him a nazi. Roger [1] One can draw a parallel here with the post-war Communist sympathisers who denied Stalins atrocities. Some of them even paid potemkin-like visits to the USSR and still came away with admiration for the system. On 9/15/05, MillB at aol.com wrote: > > > In the LA Times last Sunday, there was a review that quoted Yeats who > declared it was a necessary choice: "Perfection of the life or of the work." > > > Although, mostly, my recognition of that being true is where the poets were > bad at business or family life, neglectful with raising children, mental > illness, drinking, womanizing, drugs, etc. > > Not necessarily in the same category of being a nazi. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net From rog3r.day at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 07:04:24 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:04:24 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves In-Reply-To: <018e01c5b9a2$839b9820$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com> <00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com> <00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin> <731bb17a050914075419f9ce11@mail.gmail.com> <1bf801c5b985$a9f76980$76018b56@Robin> <00b401c5b993$3cfc5cb0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> <1cb101c5b998$17439600$76018b56@Robin> <018e01c5b9a2$839b9820$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: Shakespeare. He's a part of the British National Mythology, the presiding "genius" every brit poets seems to look up to, the begetter of tourist dollars, a patriot, the ne plus ultra of poets who cleeve to a nations root. Every so often, people point to the linguistic tokens he left behind and use that as a bolster to his genius. Well, yes, but, according to my reading, that's only because people at the time were trying to compete in expressiveness and suppleness with Latin and Greek.[1] Surprising how many poets (and artists) form a pivotal role in that area for each of the nation states. Each modern country seems to have a similar figure in their history i.e. Yeats, Wagner. One of the pillars of a nation state is it's literature, it's language isn't it? Poets, after all, are the purifiers of the language? Some sort of semi-mystical role, a totem to be cosseted but whacked when they get out of line. I'm not sure, but I think in the UK the Chancellor still has the power to decide what may be put on at a theatre. I guess that would extend to poetry readings if you decided to get out of line. Roger George Orwell: "All art is propaganda" [1] As I said to someone, if he's that good, maybe we should declare a 50 year moratorium on *all* his work in schools and colleges. Stop the RSC's funding. Then try and revive him in 50 years time and see how he get's on then. On 9/15/05, David Bircumshaw wrote: > > Interested here, Rob, why is there a societal need for poets to be taught? > > I just read them, meself, probably because I was an idiot from Birmingham, > so I didn't know any better. I do like the notion of teaching Rosenberg, it > might be a bit after the point, me ducks, as he got somewhat busy being > vaporised by a Jerry shell on an All Fools Day (only Rosenberg could have > managed that). > > Anyhow, the monks were giggling. > > Best (with a wink) > > Dave > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robin Hamilton > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:52 AM > Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] Graves > > > Tad said: > > I've taught Sassoon. Does that count? > > No -- try teaching Rosenberg. > > Or Ivor Gurney. > > Robin > > For god's sake, it's not +that+ difficult teaching Sassoon. > > :-( > > "Thank-you, thank you, the General said ..." > > Try teaching Rosenberg's "Louse Hunting in the Trenches" -- that stops the > kids short. > > Sassoon was a propagandist poet, one of the best, but he *never* rose above > propaganda. > > Saki > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 15 08:55:01 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:55:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? References: <1dd.45840d74.305a0794@aol.com> Message-ID: <022801c5b9f4$afe81af0$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Yup, Roger. One of Penguin's great embarrasment's was publishing Joseph Hone's biography of WBY, which dates from 1941. Hone was a close friend and enthusiast of Yeats and the biography makes no secret of sympathy for Chancellor Hitler in the war. Anyone with any doubts about Yeats' beliefs need only consult, say, Under Ben Bulben, and look at what he is actually saying, instead of how he's saying it. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? > Yeats supported the Blue Shirts - the Irish fascists. According to my > source, he did this from 1933 to 1939, although a search on google > tries to de-emphasize his involvement. Apologists say that he did not > know the true extent of the Nazi atrocities - well, possibly. > Kristalnacht and the euthanasia of the mentally ill in Germany > occurred well before 1939. People with eyes and ears knew what was > going on. [1] > > One could say that Yeats' work paralleled Wagners - the mysticism, the > use of mythology, the involvement with nationalism in their respective > countries. One of the big differences is that Yeats is free of the > Jewish question. > > I guess there's a point here where one's art and life coincide and > merge, messily. The artificial separation of life and work is > attractive, but not sustainable at points of pressure. > > So, to answer the original question, can Nazis be good poets, I guess > Yeats would be a candidate for a fascist being a good poet. > Technically, you couldn't call him a nazi. > > Roger > > [1] One can draw a parallel here with the post-war Communist > sympathisers who denied Stalins atrocities. Some of them even paid > potemkin-like visits to the USSR and still came away with admiration > for the system. > On 9/15/05, MillB at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > In the LA Times last Sunday, there was a review that quoted Yeats who > > declared it was a necessary choice: "Perfection of the life or of the work." > > > > > > Although, mostly, my recognition of that being true is where the poets were > > bad at business or family life, neglectful with raising children, mental > > illness, drinking, womanizing, drugs, etc. > > > > Not necessarily in the same category of being a nazi. > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > -- > http://www.badstep.net > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 15 09:09:05 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:09:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves References: <731bb17a05091310221b4713aa@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050913165023340349@mail.gmail.com><00a201c5b8c2$485feee0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05091317421b6de43b@mail.gmail.com><00de01c5b8c8$bca24bd0$21de8a56@Robin><731bb17a050914075419f9ce11@mail.gmail.com><1bf801c5b985$a9f76980$76018b56@Robin><00b401c5b993$3cfc5cb0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ><1cb101c5b998$17439600$76018b56@Robin><018e01c5b9a2$839b9820$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <022c01c5b9f6$a7330800$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> There's truth in what your saying, Roger, but I'd, for example, alter a statement like "that's only because people at the time were trying to compete in expressiveness and suppleness with Latin and Greek." to "that's because .... etc" I think the Shakespeare cult is past its heyday, obviously there vested interests that will maintain it by inertia, like the local economy in Stratford!, but I feel that culturally one can say "I like this" or "I like that" without subscribing to Bardolatry or flag-waving. I recall doing a read-through of, of all things, Romeo and Juliet with Victoria on the white benches in the lobby of the tower block where we live (she was prescribed the play for her GCSE and her son was back home who hates literature so we couln't read it in her flat and I'd got workmen in mine) BUT, despite the circumstances, the language shone through. Now I reckon if its good enough to stand up to that: i.e a joint reading by a Brummie and a dyslexic from Nottingham with people going past with Extremely Curious Stares, then it passes mustard. best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] Graves > Shakespeare. He's a part of the British National Mythology, the > presiding "genius" every brit poets seems to look up to, the begetter > of tourist dollars, a patriot, the ne plus ultra of poets who cleeve > to a nations root. Every so often, people point to the linguistic > tokens he left behind and use that as a bolster to his genius. Well, > yes, but, according to my reading,> > Surprising how many poets (and artists) form a pivotal role in that > area for each of the nation states. Each modern country seems to have > a similar figure in their history i.e. Yeats, Wagner. One of the > pillars of a nation state is it's literature, it's language isn't it? > Poets, after all, are the purifiers of the language? Some sort of > semi-mystical role, a totem to be cosseted but whacked when they get > out of line. I'm not sure, but I think in the UK the Chancellor still > has the power to decide what may be put on at a theatre. I guess that > would extend to poetry readings if you decided to get out of line. > > Roger > > George Orwell: "All art is propaganda" > > [1] As I said to someone, if he's that good, maybe we should declare a > 50 year moratorium on *all* his work in schools and colleges. Stop the > RSC's funding. Then try and revive him in 50 years time and see how he > get's on then. > > On 9/15/05, David Bircumshaw wrote: > > > > Interested here, Rob, why is there a societal need for poets to be taught? > > > > I just read them, meself, probably because I was an idiot from Birmingham, > > so I didn't know any better. I do like the notion of teaching Rosenberg, it > > might be a bit after the point, me ducks, as he got somewhat busy being > > vaporised by a Jerry shell on an All Fools Day (only Rosenberg could have > > managed that). > > > > Anyhow, the monks were giggling. > > > > Best (with a wink) > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Robin Hamilton > > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:52 AM > > Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] Graves > > > > > > Tad said: > > > > I've taught Sassoon. Does that count? > > > > No -- try teaching Rosenberg. > > > > Or Ivor Gurney. > > > > Robin > > > > For god's sake, it's not +that+ difficult teaching Sassoon. > > > > :-( > > > > "Thank-you, thank you, the General said ..." > > > > Try teaching Rosenberg's "Louse Hunting in the Trenches" -- that stops the > > kids short. > > > > Sassoon was a propagandist poet, one of the best, but he *never* rose above > > propaganda. > > > > Saki > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > -- > http://www.badstep.net > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Sep 15 10:11:43 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:11:43 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Yeats On Pound In-Reply-To: <200509150110.j8F1A0M3007410@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200509150110.j8F1A0M3007410@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: YEATS ON POUND I ask William Yeats In dream About the strange case Of Ezra Pound. Yeats replies that Pound's case Is indeed difficult: It is as a peacock wrestling with a pig. It is as the shadow of a peacock Wrestling with the shadow Of a pig. -------------------------- R i c h a r d D i l l o n -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 15 10:24:33 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050915142433.20149.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com> Bush's brand of shamanism has failed. As a shaman he decided to ignore science and pursue his feelings. Unfortunately his feelings have proved to be wrong. He is a man without a past, present or future. He had no birthdate and no future deathdate. I don't think that he's even the former President's son. It would be tempting to say that he's the Devil, but surely the Devil is both charming and interesting, full of character, wit and even menace. My abiding memory of the last week is the Mayor of New Orleans screaming and yelling on radio, 'someone for Christ's sakes do something'. But it all sounds like an attempt to plug the dyke after the dyke has broken. The rains washed away much more than New Orleans. They washed away an entire fake era of endeavour, hope, confidence in a brighter tomorrow and false nostalgia for an America of the imagination that never existed. The gleeful disdain for science and reason brought them to this point and now science must replace shamanism, rationalism must replace magic. Progressive revisionist psychosis cannot perpetually deny the connection between the hurricane and greenhouse gas emissions. www.theengine.net __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 15 10:43:49 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:43:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? Message-ID: <1b9.1be73f8e.305ae2a5@aol.com> In a message dated 9/15/2005 6:38:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rog3r.day at gmail.com writes: Yeats supported the Blue Shirts - the Irish fascists. According to my source, he did this from 1933 to 1939, although a search on google tries to de-emphasize his involvement. Apologists say that he did not know the true extent of the Nazi atrocities - well, possibly. Kristalnacht and the euthanasia of the mentally ill in Germany occurred well before 1939. People with eyes and ears knew what was going on. [1] Being an apologist, perhaps, but many of the Irish supported fascist Germany early on (and throughout the WWII) as a way of expressing their Anti-British sentiments. Of course Chamberlain and others in the UK government were fine with looking the other way well into 1938; peace in our time, and all that. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Sep 15 10:49:23 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:49:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Graves In-Reply-To: <1df901c5b9bb$2c3d87a0$76018b56@Robin> Message-ID: On 9/15/05 1:03 AM, "Robin Hamilton" wrote: > "To Juan at the Winter Solstice" > > It's also, if you look at it, a load of total shite. > > God preserve us from Graves' Goddess Poems. > > Why do people persist in quoting Graves' worst poems? Well, in my case, it was an attempt to focus the discussion back on actual poetry. So I'm happy enough. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 15 10:55:46 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:55:46 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves Message-ID: <1d7.44f40cae.305ae572@aol.com> In a message dated 9/15/2005 2:04:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: "To Juan at the Winter Solstice" It's also, if you look at it, a load of total shite. God preserve us from Graves' Goddess Poems. Why do people persist in quoting Graves' worst poems? One of American poetry's great critics, Randall Jarrell, praised this poem. To me, it's a bit romantic & mythos laden, but the music and a goodly number of quotable lines levitate that load somewhat. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 15 10:57:02 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: <1b9.1be73f8e.305ae2a5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050915145702.256.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> what do you think the connection is between those anti-British sentiments and the anti-semitism of the Nazi regime? I suppose any real rationale for Holocaust denial might revolve around the issues of victor's justice for the victors surely do write the history books but some accounts bear more weight than others. The Reconquista of Spain from the Arabs, for instance, is a complete attempt at revision by the victors, a complete attempt to write out the achievements of the Islamic civilisation that flourished in Spain. and I think that parts of our account of Nazi Germany may be exaggerated too. I recently visited the Haus der Kunst in Munich, a Nazi creation but I thought it had a lovely neo-classical symmetry and wasn't vulgar or grandiose at all. What does anyone else on the list think? best wishes, Paul Murphy --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/15/2005 6:38:31 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > rog3r.day at gmail.com writes: > Yeats supported the Blue Shirts - the Irish > fascists. According to my > source, he did this from 1933 to 1939, although a > search on google > tries to de-emphasize his involvement. Apologists > say that he did not > know the true extent of the Nazi atrocities - well, > possibly. > Kristalnacht and the euthanasia of the mentally ill > in Germany > occurred well before 1939. People with eyes and ears > knew what was > going on. [1] > Being an apologist, perhaps, but many of the Irish > supported > fascist Germany early on (and throughout the WWII) > as a way of expressing > their Anti-British sentiments. Of course Chamberlain > and others in the UK government were fine with > looking the other > way well into 1938; peace in our time, and all that. > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 15 11:12:08 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:12:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Graves Message-ID: <92.2f354a55.305ae948@aol.com> In a message dated 9/15/2005 12:14:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: How many the King hold back? That line should be "How may..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 11:16:39 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:16:39 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: References: <1dd.45840d74.305a0794@aol.com> Message-ID: "when bukowski was a nazi" http://www.hollywoodinvestigator.com/2003/bukowski1.htm This comes with all kinds of caveats. How much credence you can put in something called "The Hollywood Investigator" is up to you. YMMV on Bukowski as well etc etc. However, it looks more than likely that the answer to the original question would seem to be: "Yes. The very best." The lesson that I take away from this is if I were a less good person, I might be a better poet. My tongue is firmly in my cheek at this point. It seems to me that the gap btn "good person" and "good artist" is so wide as to have no link at all. IMO, art (and poetry by inclusion), the process of becoming an artist, the process of working as an artist, has no magical healing process on the artist, no "Get of Jail Free" card, no speicial prerogative at any mythical high table. It's just like any other occupation. It happens to be the one I am happiest with, where my talents lie, the thing that I love the most. Roger -- http://www.badstep.net http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk From clitophon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 15 11:29:13 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050915152913.85911.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> what do you mean by good? good people have money, bad people don't. good people have money and are attractive etc etc good people write bad poetry, bad people write good poetry rich people are good in spite of the fact that the gained their wealth through extortion, lying, thieving, criminality. therefore they hire a revisionist historian to write their biography. the poet can't afford this luxury and has to rely on the hagiography approved by the academy after his or her death by which time it hardly matters. can capitalists be good poets? can communists be good poets? can giraffes fly? can camels dive to the bottom of vast oceanic trenches? what is the next non-question? www.theengine.net --- Roger Day wrote: > "when bukowski was a nazi" > > http://www.hollywoodinvestigator.com/2003/bukowski1.htm > > This comes with all kinds of caveats. How much > credence you can put in > something called "The Hollywood Investigator" is up > to you. YMMV on > Bukowski as well etc etc. > > However, it looks more than likely that the answer > to the original > question would seem to be: "Yes. The very best." The > lesson that I > take away from this is if I were a less good person, > I might be a > better poet. My tongue is firmly in my cheek at this > point. > > It seems to me that the gap btn "good person" and > "good artist" is so > wide as to have no link at all. IMO, art (and poetry > by inclusion), > the process of becoming an artist, the process of > working as an > artist, has no magical healing process on the > artist, no "Get of Jail > Free" card, no speicial prerogative at any mythical > high table. It's > just like any other occupation. It happens to be the > one I am happiest > with, where my talents lie, the thing that I love > the most. > > Roger > -- > http://www.badstep.net > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 15 11:50:12 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:50:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Graves References: Message-ID: <003e01c5ba0d$294c88f0$46de8a56@Robin> > > Why do people persist in quoting Graves' worst poems? > > Well, in my case, it was an attempt to focus the discussion back on actual > poetry. So I'm happy enough. I think I owe David Graham an apology here -- in fact, I'm sure I do. A lot of my animus against "Juan at the Winter Solstice" is that I bought into the whole Graves White Goddess schtick at an impressionable age, and for me, this is a class-case of a Laura (Riding) Jackson poem. Was it one which Graves slipped under her door at Majorca? Graves is a problem, not simply working out how to teach him. My sense is that he never wrote a decent poem after 1965, and few after 1958. What's horrifying to me about the sequence of collected editions that Graves issued isn't the rubbish he included but that he persisted in junking his best poems to make way for the rubbish. Bit like Auden there. But the bottom line is that Graves is wildly under-rated. The bits of +A Survey of Modernist Poetry+ that Graves (as opposed to Riding) wrote can be quite hysterically funny -- think of his description of an RSM describing "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" at a courts-martial -- "An', sur, the defendant referred to the b-loud glade." Rat island yet. The demolition job that Graves did on anthologies was unfair but unarguable. +Antigua Penny Puce+ has to have the most obscene (deliberately?) misreadable initial paragraphs of any novel I've ever read. Finally, Graves lives in his best poems, and I'm with David in that we ought to refocus the discussion on poetry. (What really did for me over Juan was Stevens' "Idea of Order at Key West" -- pale Ramon trumps Juan any day.) Robin To bring the dead to life is no great magic. Few are wholly dead Blow on a dead man's embers And a live flame will start. From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 15 12:51:46 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:51:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? References: <1b9.1be73f8e.305ae2a5@aol.com> Message-ID: <028001c5ba15$c2e31a30$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Jim this subject is difficult. The IRA did let off a bomb in Coventry in 1941, killing thereby innocent people. At the height of the war. In my own memory they murdered people in the pub bombings in Birmingham in 1974, people in some cases whose families I knew of. As I said, this is hard to talk about, one agrees for instance about the vacillations of the Chamberlain government, but too one is creepily aware of the covert sympathy for the Hitler regime that people like De Valera and Yeats supplied. Anyhow All the Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In a message dated 9/15/2005 6:38:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rog3r.day at gmail.com writes: Yeats supported the Blue Shirts - the Irish fascists. According to my source, he did this from 1933 to 1939, although a search on google tries to de-emphasize his involvement. Apologists say that he did not know the true extent of the Nazi atrocities - well, possibly. Kristalnacht and the euthanasia of the mentally ill in Germany occurred well before 1939. People with eyes and ears knew what was going on. [1] Being an apologist, perhaps, but many of the Irish supported fascist Germany early on (and throughout the WWII) as a way of expressing their Anti-British sentiments. Of course Chamberlain and others in the UK government were fine with looking the other way well into 1938; peace in our time, and all that. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 13:06:15 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:06:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: <20050915145702.256.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1b9.1be73f8e.305ae2a5@aol.com> <20050915145702.256.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't think there's a connection, I think there's a parallel. The Germans used anti-semitism as a focal point for German Nationalism from quite an early stage - the 1830s I think, although my books are far away. Anti-British sentiment was expressed in all of the territories/colonies they controlled, and a lot of it was used as a focal point for the nations that arose in the post-colonial period. Not all of it was expressed as facism. I understand that there's still a large amount of anti-British feeling in the US, most of it rising from the 1812 war? Indeed, for most of the 19th Century Americans spent a large amount of effort ensuring that the language Americans and the British used was and is different. However, I hear what JforJ is saying about the currency of that movement at that time. A lot of people in this tiny island, some of, if not most, upper class, were up to their necks in it. In my understanding - and I admit it's incomplete - facism turns on the defining of "race", and a large, vile part of that hideous, taxonomic process is othering, creating the bogeyman. One difference between the Jewish and the British bogeyman in these scenarios is that the British were - and still are - the colonising force and thus a different inflection in emotion rises as a consequence, emotions that I can well understand. The question I suppose is does Yeats facism arise mainly from his anti-British feeling? And if so, can I excuse him for it because of his anti-British feelings? That's an interesting question. I don't know. And I'm part-Welsh who regards "British Poetry" as a bit of an oxymoron. Roger On 9/15/05, Paul Murphy wrote: > what do you think the connection is between those > anti-British sentiments and the anti-semitism of the > Nazi regime? I suppose any real rationale for > Holocaust denial might revolve around the issues of > victor's justice for the victors surely do write the > history books but some accounts bear more weight than > others. The Reconquista of Spain from the Arabs, for > instance, is a complete attempt at revision by the > victors, a complete attempt to write out the > achievements of the Islamic civilisation that > flourished in Spain. and I think that parts of our > account of Nazi Germany may be exaggerated too. I > recently visited the Haus der Kunst in Munich, a Nazi > creation but I thought it had a lovely neo-classical > symmetry and wasn't vulgar or grandiose at all. What > does anyone else on the list think? > best wishes, > Paul Murphy > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 9/15/2005 6:38:31 AM Eastern > > Daylight Time, > > rog3r.day at gmail.com writes: > > Yeats supported the Blue Shirts - the Irish > > fascists. According to my > > source, he did this from 1933 to 1939, although a > > search on google > > tries to de-emphasize his involvement. Apologists > > say that he did not > > know the true extent of the Nazi atrocities - well, > > possibly. > > Kristalnacht and the euthanasia of the mentally ill > > in Germany > > occurred well before 1939. People with eyes and ears > > knew what was > > going on. [1] > > Being an apologist, perhaps, but many of the Irish > > supported > > fascist Germany early on (and throughout the WWII) > > as a way of expressing > > their Anti-British sentiments. Of course Chamberlain > > and others in the UK government were fine with > > looking the other > > way well into 1938; peace in our time, and all that. > > Finnegan > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- http://www.badstep.net From clitophon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 15 13:22:33 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050915172233.21513.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> Yeats wasn't therefore fascist but anti-British. The similie/trope Jew must then stand for British. But its more complex than that of course. Both Capitalism and Communism had a basis in Liberalism but Capitalism more so and Liberalism was anaethema to the Fascists. Then these tropes were subsumed into the Jews. The Jews are the enemy because they represent the Zionist/Capitalist world conspiracy and the Communist world conspiracy. The whole thing sounds like a mad ideology if it wasn't for the fact that Capitalism is also mad (except that I have the freedom to say this, a freedom non-existent under fascism). --- Roger Day wrote: > I don't think there's a connection, I think there's > a parallel. The > Germans used anti-semitism as a focal point for > German Nationalism > from quite an early stage - the 1830s I think, > although my books are > far away. > > Anti-British sentiment was expressed in all of the > territories/colonies they controlled, and a lot of > it was used as a > focal point for the nations that arose in the > post-colonial period. > Not all of it was expressed as facism. I understand > that there's > still a large amount of anti-British feeling in the > US, most of it > rising from the 1812 war? Indeed, for most of the > 19th Century > Americans spent a large amount of effort ensuring > that the language > Americans and the British used was and is different. > > However, I hear what JforJ is saying about the > currency of that > movement at that time. A lot of people in this tiny > island, some of, > if not most, upper class, were up to their necks in > it. > > In my understanding - and I admit it's incomplete - > facism turns on > the defining of "race", and a large, vile part of > that hideous, > taxonomic process is othering, creating the > bogeyman. One difference > between the Jewish and the British bogeyman in these > scenarios is that > the British were - and still are - the colonising > force and thus a > different inflection in emotion rises as a > consequence, emotions that > I can well understand. The question I suppose is > does Yeats facism > arise mainly from his anti-British feeling? And if > so, can I excuse > him for it because of his anti-British feelings? > That's an interesting > question. I don't know. And I'm part-Welsh who > regards "British > Poetry" as a bit of an oxymoron. > > Roger > > On 9/15/05, Paul Murphy wrote: > > what do you think the connection is between those > > anti-British sentiments and the anti-semitism of > the > > Nazi regime? I suppose any real rationale for > > Holocaust denial might revolve around the issues > of > > victor's justice for the victors surely do write > the > > history books but some accounts bear more weight > than > > others. The Reconquista of Spain from the Arabs, > for > > instance, is a complete attempt at revision by the > > victors, a complete attempt to write out the > > achievements of the Islamic civilisation that > > flourished in Spain. and I think that parts of > our > > account of Nazi Germany may be exaggerated too. I > > recently visited the Haus der Kunst in Munich, a > Nazi > > creation but I thought it had a lovely > neo-classical > > symmetry and wasn't vulgar or grandiose at all. > What > > does anyone else on the list think? > > best wishes, > > Paul Murphy > > > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 9/15/2005 6:38:31 AM Eastern > > > Daylight Time, > > > rog3r.day at gmail.com writes: > > > Yeats supported the Blue Shirts - the Irish > > > fascists. According to my > > > source, he did this from 1933 to 1939, although > a > > > search on google > > > tries to de-emphasize his involvement. > Apologists > > > say that he did not > > > know the true extent of the Nazi atrocities - > well, > > > possibly. > > > Kristalnacht and the euthanasia of the mentally > ill > > > in Germany > > > occurred well before 1939. People with eyes and > ears > > > knew what was > > > going on. [1] > > > Being an apologist, perhaps, but many of the > Irish > > > supported > > > fascist Germany early on (and throughout the > WWII) > > > as a way of expressing > > > their Anti-British sentiments. Of course > Chamberlain > > > and others in the UK government were fine with > > > looking the other > > > way well into 1938; peace in our time, and all > that. > > > Finnegan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > http://www.badstep.net > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 15 13:26:51 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:26:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? References: <1b9.1be73f8e.305ae2a5@aol.com> <028001c5ba15$c2e31a30$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <007801c5ba1a$aaa84e40$46de8a56@Robin> From: David Bircumshaw << this subject is difficult. The IRA did let off a bomb in Coventry in 1941, killing thereby innocent people. At the height of the war. In my own memory they murdered people in the pub bombings in Birmingham in 1974, people in some cases whose families I knew of. >> I think when you say "IRA", it's as well to specify which one. I grew up with the Provos, Gerry Adams and Matt McGinn and their crew, and that was at least the third splinter from the Original IRA. The ones I have no time for are Continuity and the Real IRA. Load of psychotic motherfuckers. You were closer than me to the Birmingham bomb in the seventies, but on the other hand I was working the phones in London at the time, and I counted as a "legitimate target". In Provo terms, a Legitimate Target was one you didn't feel obliged to warn before they blew us all to buggery. Say what you like, the Provos didn't go out of their *way* to kill, in their terms, Innocent Civilians, but that they managed, as in Birmingam in 74, to do it accidentally didn't make a hell of a lot of difference if you were there. The rules seem to have changed -- now it seems to be that the more you kill, the better. :-( Robin From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 15 13:38:01 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:38:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? References: <1b9.1be73f8e.305ae2a5@aol.com><028001c5ba15$c2e31a30$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <007801c5ba1a$aaa84e40$46de8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <028f01c5ba1c$3905f6f0$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Oh yeah, the Provos, Rob. If it wasn't for George Orr, someone I haven't seen for years but knew at the time, me and my mates would have been in the exact spot in The Tavern In The Town where the bomb went off. Reason we weren't there was that George had taken a fancy to this barmaid in Kingstanding so he phoned us all up the night before that Thursday asking to meet up in the pub where she worked rather than The Tavern. So we did. George never scored with the girl but I presume I owe him my life. C'est la vie, so to speak. Cheers Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? > From: David Bircumshaw > > << > this subject is difficult. The IRA did let off a bomb in Coventry in 1941, > killing thereby innocent people. At the height of the war. In my own memory > they murdered people in the pub bombings in Birmingham in 1974, people in > some cases whose families I knew of. > >> > > I think when you say "IRA", it's as well to specify which one. > > I grew up with the Provos, Gerry Adams and Matt McGinn and their crew, and > that was at least the third splinter from the Original IRA. > > The ones I have no time for are Continuity and the Real IRA. Load of > psychotic motherfuckers. > > You were closer than me to the Birmingham bomb in the seventies, but on the > other hand I was working the phones in London at the time, and I counted as > a "legitimate target". > > In Provo terms, a Legitimate Target was one you didn't feel obliged to warn > before they blew us all to buggery. > > Say what you like, the Provos didn't go out of their *way* to kill, in their > terms, Innocent Civilians, but that they managed, as in Birmingam in 74, to > do it accidentally didn't make a hell of a lot of difference if you were > there. > > The rules seem to have changed -- now it seems to be that the more you kill, > the better. > > :-( > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Sep 15 15:55:41 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:55:41 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can misogynists play beautifully? References: <20a.95a78e4.305a3499@cs.com> Message-ID: <008001c5ba2f$73c9a030$3fa33852@ANNY> Controversial indeed. Even if what I read is definitely praise rather than condemnation. To follow some quotations. Who instead stems out devilishly is von Karajan, the Australian adventurer, a surprise for me. As per Furtwangler we should understand that a director needs an orchestra, and the Berliner Orchestra was his _body_. To consider is also his day by day life, the fact that at the beginning they threatened his mother, forced to compromise he was then sucked into it. Quotes: It takes far more courage to oppose a totalitarian regime from within. Great music never emerges from comfort, well-being and privilege. Rather, throughout the history of music, the finest work arises from the most trying of circumstances. All of the great artists - composers and performers - were tortured souls. All conductors take their music seriously, but Furtw?ngler was driven by a deeper urge: he saw music as a moral force which had the power to impel listeners toward the good. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Can misogynists play beautifully? A good online piece about Furtwangler. http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/furtwangler.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 15:58:23 2005 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:58:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets in New Orleans In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0509141850397ce6b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a0509141850397ce6b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for posting this, Jeff. I have a number of friends from that area and it is just heartbreaking. Its always good to know about organized efforts to bring aid. --Suzanne -- "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and you have style." --Quentin Crisp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Sep 15 16:26:54 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:26:54 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rodney Torreson Message-ID: <009001c5ba33$d2d881f0$3fa33852@ANNY> The Bethlehem Nursing Home A birdbath ministers to the lawn chairs, all toppled: a recliner on its face, metal arms trying to push it up; an overturned rocker, curvature of the spine. Armchairs on their sides, webbing unraveled. One faces the flowers. A director's chair folded, as if prepared to be taken up. >From "A Breathable Light," New Issues Poetry and Prose, 2002, and first published in "Cape Rock". Copyright (c) 2002 by Rodney Torreson Publisher Comments: At the beginning of Rodney Torreson's fascinating second book, everything is in its place--ordinary, time-honored, known. Then, quite without warning, the familiar becomes new, alien, strangely awful or strangely dazzling. In a landscape of ditch, fence, branch, stone, and weed, it seems all living creatures are in league with the dry wind and the icebound ruts. In forty-four beautifully uncluttered poems Torreson shows us the world as it's always been--a realm of unrelenting wonder. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 16:59:15 2005 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:59:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "favorite lush uncle, telling wondrous stories" at the Grolier In-Reply-To: <206.94e94b8.30598c99@aol.com> References: <206.94e94b8.30598c99@aol.com> Message-ID: Jim, It sounds like the Grolier is now only open on Saturdays (featuring events such as this I guess, as well as coffee by Toscanini's) and by appointment. I went by yesterday and noticed a sign to this effect. Does anyone know if this is just temporary, or if this is a permanent change? --Suzanne On 9/14/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > I messed that up, by clipping out the quote instead of copying... > > SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2005, 6PM, at the Grolier Poetry Book > Shop, 6 Plympton Street, Harvard Square > > PETER WORTSMAN, translator from the German of Telegrams of the Soul > (archipelago books) by PETER ALTENBERG will read from, discuss,and sign > copies of his translation. Altenberg, born Richard Englander in 1895, was a > failed businessman who in his forties took to writing. He was influenced by > Baudelaire and the necessity of compression by the Austrian invention, the > postcard. ... "At his best, he is like a favorite lush uncle, telling > wondrous stories that you can't quite believe." Thomas Welch in Rain Taxi, > April, 2005. Coffee donated by Toscanini's will be served. > > > > In a message dated 9/14/2005 10:22:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, > JforJames at aol.com writes: > > Subj: *[New-Poetry] "favorite lush uncle, telling wondrous stories" at the > Grolier * > Date: 9/14/2005 10:22:26 AM Eastern Standard Time > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply-to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent from the Internet * > > > > SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2005, 6PM, at the Grolier Poetry Book > Shop, 6 Plympton Street, Harvard Square > > PETER WORTSMAN, translator from the German of Telegrams of the Soul > (archipelago books) by PETER ALTENBERG will read from, discuss,and sign > copies of his translation. Altenberg, born Richard Englander in 1895, > was a failed businessman who in his forties took to writing. He was > influenced by Baudelaire and the necessity of compression by the > Austrian invention, the postcard. ... "At his best, > that you can't quite believe." Thomas Welch in Rain Taxi, April, 2005. > Coffee donated by Toscanini's will be served. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and you have style." --Quentin Crisp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 15 22:10:37 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:10:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? Message-ID: <60.5dc31c84.305b839d@aol.com> In a message dated 9/15/2005 12:51:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com writes: Jim this subject is difficult. The IRA did let off a bomb in Coventry in 1941, killing thereby innocent people. At the height of the war. In my own memory they murdered people in the pub bombings in Birmingham in 1974, people in some cases whose families I knew of. As I said, this is hard to talk about, one agrees for instance about the vacillations of the Chamberlain government, but too one is creepily aware of the covert sympathy for the Hitler regime that people like De Valera and Yeats supplied. Anyhow Dave, No doubt it's very complicated. The anti-Semitism that was fairly rampant among Catholics at the time (if not continuing less overtly) certainly played a part in the Nazi sympathizing. We had active fascist groups in the US, marching in the streets, right up to the Pearl Harbor attack. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 15 22:23:27 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:23:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? Message-ID: <6b.4d7e4619.305b869f@aol.com> In a message dated 9/15/2005 1:06:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rog3r.day at gmail.com writes: The question I suppose is does Yeats facism arise mainly from his anti-British feeling? And if so, can I excuse him for it because of his anti-British feelings? That's an interesting question. I don't know. And I'm part-Welsh who regards "British Poetry" as a bit of an oxymoron. The traditional Catholic anti-Semitism, as I said to David B, must be considered a factor as well. Others who know the Yeats bio more than I, might be able to cite examples. I don't think of Yeats as an hater of Jews the way Pound clearly was, nor do I know what was said between them at the stone cottage...but I know from my own upbringing that some vile things get said and instead of being contradicted you got a lot of nodding and affirmation. And that's at least 3 generations after W.B. and two after the villainy of the Holocaust was exposed. Finnegan] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 16 07:45:57 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:45:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? References: <60.5dc31c84.305b839d@aol.com> Message-ID: <033d01c5bab4$493a6310$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Yeah, Jim, I can see where you are getting at. In the case of Yeats it's even more complicated because Yeats himself was not from a Catholic background (he was Anglo-Protestant-Irish descent) unlike, btw, the Catholic raised James Joyce who, to his credit, totally rejected the common anti-Semitism of his time. With Yeats it seems to be bound up with his aristocratic affectations and those who he saw as comprising the 'commercial classes'. One does have to remember that Yeats was not inactive politically, Senator Yeats, yes, so it's rather more than a matter of a writer's idiosyncrasies. I'd rather not say much more on this as it has the feeling of stumbling into a mire. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 3:10 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In a message dated 9/15/2005 12:51:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com writes: Jim this subject is difficult. The IRA did let off a bomb in Coventry in 1941, killing thereby innocent people. At the height of the war. In my own memory they murdered people in the pub bombings in Birmingham in 1974, people in some cases whose families I knew of. As I said, this is hard to talk about, one agrees for instance about the vacillations of the Chamberlain government, but too one is creepily aware of the covert sympathy for the Hitler regime that people like De Valera and Yeats supplied. Anyhow Dave, No doubt it's very complicated. The anti-Semitism that was fairly rampant among Catholics at the time (if not continuing less overtly) certainly played a part in the Nazi sympathizing. We had active fascist groups in the US, marching in the streets, right up to the Pearl Harbor attack. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 09:17:32 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 09:17:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, B.B. King Message-ID: <731bb17a05091606177ebe00de@mail.gmail.com> As today is B.B. King's birthday, why not post your favorite blues poem (interpret that phrase in any way that you see fit). from "Listening Images" Lawson Fusao Inada Lester Young Yes clouds do have The smoothest sound Billie Holiday Hold a microphone Close to the moon. * * * Miles Davis 3 valves, tubing . . . How many feelings? * * * Delta Blues They broke bottles Just to get the neck. Son House A lone man plucking Bolts of lightning. Kansas City Shouters Your baby leaves you on the train. You stand and bring it back again. Big Joe Turner Big as laughter, big as rain, Big as the big public domain. from *Legends from Camp* (Coffee House Press, 1993) Jeff Newberry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Sep 16 09:50:24 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:50:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, B.B. King In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05091606177ebe00de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: on 9/16/05 8:17 AM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: As today is B.B. King's birthday, why not post your favorite blues poem (interpret that phrase in any way that you see fit). ====================================== Not sure the following's my favorite (so many to choose from) but it's a sentimental favorite. The author's a former student of mine. This is from his first book. I've been meaning to send a notice about his second collection, which has recently been published. Stay tuned. Mississippi Delta Blues Musician's Picture Altered on Commemorative Stamp Presents More Positive image Me and the devil was walking side by side. I'm going to beat my woman until I get satisfied. Robert Johnson, "Me and the Devil Blues" Robert Johnson died young, strychnined whiskey someone's jealous husband slipped him down south, sang he'd use a pistol, "cut her half in two." His Postal Service stamp, the pesky, famous cigarette's erased. His fix-mouthed, grave face travels, stripped, through towns where he'd been known for fleeing hellhounds, drink, and playing blues so charged and stark some devil must have got his signature in blood. The fraying document holds up because I just have forty and one hundred syllables, near flawless trochees. Bones in time get picked dull. Johnson phoning agent: "This woman here said she'd pleasure me. I lacks a nickel." --Aaron Anstett. Sustenance. New Rivers Press, 1997. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Fri Sep 16 09:53:37 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 09:53:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, B.B. King Message-ID: <66.5f5895e4.305c2861@aol.com> Here are two of my favorites by Lynda Hull Mill Hollywood Jazz Who says it's cool says wrong. For it rises from the city's sweltering geometry of rooms, fire escapes, and flares from the heels of corner boys on Occidental posing with small-time criminal intent--all pneumatic grace. This is the music that plays at the moment in every late-night noir flick when the woman finds herself alone, perfectly alone, in a hotel room before a man whose face is so shadowed as to be invisible, one more bedroom arsonist seeing nothing remotely cool: a woman in a cage of half-light, Venetian blinds. This is where jazz blooms, in the hook and snag of her zipper opening to an enfilade of trumpets. Her dress falls in a dizzy indigo riff. I know her vices are minor: sex, forgetfulness, the desire to be someone, anyone else. On the landing, the man pauses before descending The Charmed Hour --for my mother On the radio, gypsy jazz. Django Reinhardt puts a slow fire to Ellington's Solitude while ice cubes pop in your martini. The sting of lime on my palm. By the sink you lean, twisting your rings. Turn to the window. In shadow you could be sixteen again, in your mother's kitchen above Cleveland, the caf?s of Warsaw still smoky in your mind with talk and cigarettes, English still a raw mystery of verbs. Windows brighten across the city at the hour when voices steam from the street like some sadness--the charmed hour when, smooth as brilliantine, Phil Verona with his Magic Violin slides from the radio. Ice-blue in silk, his All-Girl Orchestra sways through the parlor. You let yourself step with them, let a gardenia release its vanilla scent in your hair. Over terraces, you dance above vapor-lights, Gold Coast streets where club doors swing like the doors of banks that never fall. In back rooms men and women spend themselves over green baize tables, the ivory poker chips. In their chests wings beat, steady. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Sep 16 09:58:50 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:58:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/16/05 8:50 AM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote: on 9/16/05 8:17 AM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: As today is B.B. King's birthday, why not post your favorite blues poem (interpret that phrase in any way that you see fit). ====================================== Hope I'll be forgiven for going over my quota of self-promotion this month, but as it happens I have an old poem that was inspired by a B. B. King concert. The concert itself was over 30 years ago, and I still remember it as one of the most amazing I've ever attended. I don't suppose I could have predicted, then, that he'd still be playing concerts all these years later. I guess I thought I was catching a legend on one of his last tours. . . . King doesn't appear until the second stanza, by the way. Kinds Of Jazz One song says it right: a whole lotta shakin's going on: upheavals in other lives I read about with bagel and coffee before I pack my briefcase and forget my way to work. When I ask my students who Joseph Stalin was, or when World War I ended, I get row upon row of blanks. And these are people, I complain to friends in barrooms, who know every World Series like a catechism, who know to the cent how much an engineer or lawyer makes. Am I much different? I know each song the Beatles recorded, but could not give any clear apology for my life. History comes with its own radio: haunted tunes I recall as year of war, year of riots, year of school or marriage. I listen for history's jazz, but the music of what happens is a poor thing compared to the great as if, which is music jazzed beyond reproduction. One night I heard a blues guitar so fine it was like a dentist's drill full of love, a conversation between one scripture and the next. That man onstage in his blue suit, that corny, fat father of the beer commercials, played his jive so hard it came true, right there in the smoky spotlight where I'll never be. I loved even his jazz between numbers, jokes old enough to shine. I take that night's improvisation as fact: scat sung well replenishes thin voices. I loved how a phrase, left hanging by the trumpet, would be gathered in his hands and strung like a spiderweb in the light. --from Second Wind. Texas Tech University Press, 1990. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Sep 16 10:31:25 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:31:25 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, B.B. King References: Message-ID: <006401c5bacb$51b76cb0$402bb750@ANNY> Happy Birthday, B.B. KingTwo from Larry Jaffe: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=27 Miles Showed Me His Trumpet Miles Davis lived around the block from me deep in the upper west side of Manhattan island. He played like one man could be an island living for his horn that paid his daily bread living in this house made of gingerbread, on West 77th Street while I lived on West 76th. I would see him every now and again going into that brownstone that his horn built. - - I got to meet miles Walked round the block, walked round the clock where Miles stood outside his homestead just proud as peacock. He told me how much he liked San Francisco women because their bottoms were so round not flat from riding subways all days, he said with smile. Nudging me, guy hood joke "You know what I mean." We went inside past the New York fa?ade into his musical domain - headquarters for lonely horn players The purity of Miles' trumpet leans into me he sings it blue. My eyes tear uncontrollably. He has touched melodies that riff with magic, I escape ego with this horn. It is evolution of life in notes counterpoint. My fingers feel broken, wanting to make the same sounds with words - that staccato lip thing that merges horn with man. - Miles showed me his trumpet in this house of sugar coated dreams. When I was a kid I dreamed of playing trumpet but I wore braces on my teeth. they said I would cut my lips to ribbons and bleed on my horn. I looked up with tears and thought Miles, Miles always bleeds on his horn ? 1999-2003 lgjaffe ELLA SANG Ella sang willow weep for me and I cried I told her I named my daughter Willow because she was born reed strong willow thin -dark brown hair haloed her face each feathered lock gold tipped -this angel miracle born And Ella Fitzgerald sang Willow weep for me and I cried ? 21 March 1999 - 2003 lgjaffe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome L'enfer, c'est les autres. J. P. Sartre -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Sep 16 11:08:42 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:08:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King References: Message-ID: <006701c5bad0$895cee60$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. KingThe Weary Blues Langston Hughes Droning a drowsy syncopated tune, Rocking back and forth to a mellow croon, I heard a Negro play. Down on Lenox Avenue the other night By the pale dull pallor of an old gas light He did a lazy sway . . . He did a lazy sway . . . To the tune o' those Weary Blues. With his ebony hands on each ivory key He made that poor piano moan with melody. O Blues! Swaying to and fro on his rickety stool He played that sad raggy tune like a musical fool. Sweet Blues! Coming from a black man's soul. O Blues! In a deep song voice with a melancholy tone I heard that Negro sing, that old piano moan-- "Ain't got nobody in all this world, Ain't got nobody but ma self. I's gwine to quit ma frownin' And put ma troubles on the shelf." Thump, thump, thump, went his foot on the floor. He played a few chords then he sang some more-- "I got the Weary Blues And I can't be satisfied. Got the Weary Blues And can't be satisfied-- I ain't happy no mo' And I wish that I had died." And far into the night he crooned that tune. The stars went out and so did the moon. The singer stopped playing and went to bed While the Weary Blues echoed through his head. He slept like a rock or a man that's dead.Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 9:58 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King on 9/16/05 8:50 AM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote: on 9/16/05 8:17 AM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: As today is B.B. King's birthday, why not post your favorite blues poem (interpret that phrase in any way that you see fit). ====================================== Hope I'll be forgiven for going over my quota of self-promotion this month, but as it happens I have an old poem that was inspired by a B. B. King concert. The concert itself was over 30 years ago, and I still remember it as one of the most amazing I've ever attended. I don't suppose I could have predicted, then, that he'd still be playing concerts all these years later. I guess I thought I was catching a legend on one of his last tours. . . . King doesn't appear until the second stanza, by the way. Kinds Of Jazz One song says it right: a whole lotta shakin's going on: upheavals in other lives I read about with bagel and coffee before I pack my briefcase and forget my way to work. When I ask my students who Joseph Stalin was, or when World War I ended, I get row upon row of blanks. And these are people, I complain to friends in barrooms, who know every World Series like a catechism, who know to the cent how much an engineer or lawyer makes. Am I much different? I know each song the Beatles recorded, but could not give any clear apology for my life. History comes with its own radio: haunted tunes I recall as year of war, year of riots, year of school or marriage. I listen for history's jazz, but the music of what happens is a poor thing compared to the great as if, which is music jazzed beyond reproduction. One night I heard a blues guitar so fine it was like a dentist's drill full of love, a conversation between one scripture and the next. That man onstage in his blue suit, that corny, fat father of the beer commercials, played his jive so hard it came true, right there in the smoky spotlight where I'll never be. I loved even his jazz between numbers, jokes old enough to shine. I take that night's improvisation as fact: scat sung well replenishes thin voices. I loved how a phrase, left hanging by the trumpet, would be gathered in his hands and strung like a spiderweb in the light. --from Second Wind. Texas Tech University Press, 1990. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Sep 16 04:49:00 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:49:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Nazis be good poets? In-Reply-To: <60.5dc31c84.305b839d@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9/15/05 9:10 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" wrote: > In a message dated 9/15/2005 12:51:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com writes: >> Jim >> >> this subject is difficult. The IRA did let off a bomb in Coventry in 1941, >> killing thereby innocent people. At the height of the war. In my own memory >> they murdered people in the pub bombings in Birmingham in 1974, people in >> some cases whose families I knew of. As I said, this is hard to talk about, >> one agrees for instance about the vacillations of the Chamberlain government, >> but too one is creepily aware of the covert sympathy for the Hitler regime >> that people like De Valera and Yeats supplied. >> >> Anyhow > Dave, > No doubt it's very complicated. The anti-Semitism that > was fairly rampant among Catholics at the time (if not > continuing less overtly) certainly played a part in the > Nazi sympathizing. We had active fascist groups in the > US, marching in the streets, right up to the Pearl Harbor > attack. > Finnegan > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > People also forget that many Germans were deported and even interred like the Japanese to keep them from acting on their Nazi sympathies during wartime. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Sep 16 12:02:56 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:02:56 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King References: <006701c5bad0$895cee60$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00fd01c5bad8$1a53f7e0$402bb750@ANNY> Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. KingMost beautiful, it brought me back to my Newowleeens. ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King The Weary Blues Langston Hughes Droning a drowsy syncopated tune, Rocking back and forth to a mellow croon, I heard a Negro play. Down on Lenox Avenue the other night By the pale dull pallor of an old gas light He did a lazy sway . . . He did a lazy sway . . . To the tune o' those Weary Blues. With his ebony hands on each ivory key He made that poor piano moan with melody. O Blues! Swaying to and fro on his rickety stool He played that sad raggy tune like a musical fool. Sweet Blues! Coming from a black man's soul. O Blues! In a deep song voice with a melancholy tone I heard that Negro sing, that old piano moan-- "Ain't got nobody in all this world, Ain't got nobody but ma self. I's gwine to quit ma frownin' And put ma troubles on the shelf." Thump, thump, thump, went his foot on the floor. He played a few chords then he sang some more-- "I got the Weary Blues And I can't be satisfied. Got the Weary Blues And can't be satisfied-- I ain't happy no mo' And I wish that I had died." And far into the night he crooned that tune. The stars went out and so did the moon. The singer stopped playing and went to bed While the Weary Blues echoed through his head. He slept like a rock or a man that's dead.Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Sep 16 12:51:56 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:51:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King References: <006701c5bad0$895cee60$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> <00fd01c5bad8$1a53f7e0$402bb750@ANNY> Message-ID: <00ce01c5bade$f80dd7d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. KingOne of mine: STACKOLEE AND THE DEVIL Stackolee went down to hell Lookin' mighty furious Devil said, "Where you come from, boy?" He told him, "East St. Louis." Stackolee said to the Devil, "Put your pitchfork on the shelf, I'm the bad man they call Stackolee Gonna rule Hell by myself." The Devil sent a woman With a stomach made of rain Stackolee sucked her bones clean dry And sent her back again, Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil is gonna win Stackolee took the Devil And he tied him to a rail Set fire ants to eat his horns And a goat to eat his tail Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil is gonna fail Devil sent another woman Her eyes were made of coal Stackolee sent her back again They were red as a jelly roll Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil gonna take his toll Stackolee took the Devil And he chained him to the air Put hornets all around his private parts And maggots in his hair Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil, he don't care The Devil sent his daughter Took old Stackolee by the arm Walked him into the fiery pit, Stack says, "It's getting' warm" Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil gonna work a charm Stackolee took off his gloves And loosened up his vest The Devil's daughter went and laid Her head against his chest Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, he's doin' what he do best The devil's daughter took old Stack's hand And she placed it on her heart Fire so hot it fused them hard So they'd never come apart Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Come on and see the Devil's art Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King Most beautiful, it brought me back to my Newowleeens. ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King The Weary Blues Langston Hughes Droning a drowsy syncopated tune, Rocking back and forth to a mellow croon, I heard a Negro play. Down on Lenox Avenue the other night By the pale dull pallor of an old gas light He did a lazy sway . . . He did a lazy sway . . . To the tune o' those Weary Blues. With his ebony hands on each ivory key He made that poor piano moan with melody. O Blues! Swaying to and fro on his rickety stool He played that sad raggy tune like a musical fool. Sweet Blues! Coming from a black man's soul. O Blues! In a deep song voice with a melancholy tone I heard that Negro sing, that old piano moan-- "Ain't got nobody in all this world, Ain't got nobody but ma self. I's gwine to quit ma frownin' And put ma troubles on the shelf." Thump, thump, thump, went his foot on the floor. He played a few chords then he sang some more-- "I got the Weary Blues And I can't be satisfied. Got the Weary Blues And can't be satisfied-- I ain't happy no mo' And I wish that I had died." And far into the night he crooned that tune. The stars went out and so did the moon. The singer stopped playing and went to bed While the Weary Blues echoed through his head. He slept like a rock or a man that's dead.Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 13:42:57 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:42:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King In-Reply-To: <00ce01c5bade$f80dd7d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <006701c5bad0$895cee60$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> <00fd01c5bad8$1a53f7e0$402bb750@ANNY> <00ce01c5bade$f80dd7d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <731bb17a0509161042603f107c@mail.gmail.com> Is it "Stackolee?' Good Lord. My old man used to sit around the house, strumming that tune on his six-string, and singing (what I *thought* was) "Stagger Lee." I don't think that I knew it was actually "Stackolee" until this very moment. Thanks, Tad. Jeff On 9/16/05, The Old Mole wrote: > > One of mine: > > STACKOLEE AND THE DEVIL > > * * > > *Stackolee went down to hell* > > *Lookin' mighty furious* > > *Devil said, "Where you come from, boy?"* > > *He told him, "East St. Louis."* > > * * > > *Stackolee said to the Devil,* > > *"Put your pitchfork on the shelf,* > > *I'm the bad man they call Stackolee * > > *Gonna rule Hell by myself."* > > * * > > * * > > The Devil sent a woman > > With a stomach made of rain > > Stackolee sucked her bones clean dry > > And sent her back again, > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil is gonna win* > > * * > > * * > > Stackolee took the Devil > > And he tied him to a rail > > Set fire ants to eat his horns > > And a goat to eat his tail > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil is gonna fail* > > * * > > * * > > Devil sent another woman > > Her eyes were made of coal > > Stackolee sent her back again > > They were red as a jelly roll > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil gonna take his toll* > > * * > > * * > > Stackolee took the Devil > > And he chained him to the air > > Put hornets all around his private parts > > And maggots in his hair > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil, he don't care* > > * * > > * * > > The Devil sent his daughter > > Took old Stackolee by the arm > > Walked him into the fiery pit, > > Stack says, "It's getting' warm" > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil gonna work a charm* > > * * > > * * > > Stackolee took off his gloves > > And loosened up his vest > > The Devil's daughter went and laid > > Her head against his chest > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, he's doin' what he do best* > > * * > > * * > > The devil's daughter took old Stack's hand > > And she placed it on her heart > > Fire so hot it fused them hard > > So they'd never come apart > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Come on and see the Devil's art* > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > *Sent:* Friday, September 16, 2005 12:02 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King > > Most beautiful, it brought me back to my Newowleeens. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* The Old Mole > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > *Sent:* Friday, September 16, 2005 5:08 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King > > The Weary Blues > Langston Hughes > > Droning a drowsy syncopated tune, > Rocking back and forth to a mellow croon, > I heard a Negro play. > Down on Lenox Avenue the other night > By the pale dull pallor of an old gas light > He did a lazy sway . . . > He did a lazy sway . . . > To the tune o' those Weary Blues. > With his ebony hands on each ivory key > He made that poor piano moan with melody. > O Blues! > Swaying to and fro on his rickety stool > He played that sad raggy tune like a musical fool. > Sweet Blues! > Coming from a black man's soul. > O Blues! > In a deep song voice with a melancholy tone > I heard that Negro sing, that old piano moan-- > "Ain't got nobody in all this world, > Ain't got nobody but ma self. > I's gwine to quit ma frownin' > And put ma troubles on the shelf." > > Thump, thump, thump, went his foot on the floor. > He played a few chords then he sang some more-- > "I got the Weary Blues > And I can't be satisfied. > Got the Weary Blues > And can't be satisfied-- > I ain't happy no mo' > And I wish that I had died." > And far into the night he crooned that tune. > The stars went out and so did the moon. > The singer stopped playing and went to bed > While the Weary Blues echoed through his head. > He slept like a rock or a man that's dead. > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Sep 16 16:51:14 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:51:14 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King Message-ID: <200509161927.j8GJR8Oc140234@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> very cool---would love to hear it--- Also, someone asked about the spelling--- aren't there many variations on this spelling of mr. Stack? Well, one of my fav BB King lyrics (don't think he wrote em) is that song he does as a medly--based on juxtapositions-- the first one, sweet little angle, has "i asked her for a little drink.....she gave me a whiskey still" and then later, (i'm paraphasing from vague memory) "i took you to my mansion.....you called it shack bought you dinner........you said thanks for the snack" etc.... no time to look em up right now, but if you know you know! C ---------- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King Date: Fri, Sep 16, 2005, 8:51 AM One of mine: STACKOLEE AND THE DEVIL Stackolee went down to hell Lookin? mighty furious Devil said, ?Where you come from, boy?? He told him, ?East St. Louis.? Stackolee said to the Devil, ?Put your pitchfork on the shelf, I?m the bad man they call Stackolee Gonna rule Hell by myself.? The Devil sent a woman With a stomach made of rain Stackolee sucked her bones clean dry And sent her back again, Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil is gonna win Stackolee took the Devil And he tied him to a rail Set fire ants to eat his horns And a goat to eat his tail Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil is gonna fail Devil sent another woman Her eyes were made of coal Stackolee sent her back again They were red as a jelly roll Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil gonna take his toll Stackolee took the Devil And he chained him to the air Put hornets all around his private parts And maggots in his hair Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil, he don?t care The Devil sent his daughter Took old Stackolee by the arm Walked him into the fiery pit, Stack says, ?It?s getting? warm? Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil gonna work a charm Stackolee took off his gloves And loosened up his vest The Devil?s daughter went and laid Her head against his chest Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, he?s doin? what he do best The devil?s daughter took old Stack?s hand And she placed it on her heart Fire so hot it fused them hard So they?d never come apart Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Come on and see the Devil?s art Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King Most beautiful, it brought me back to my Newowleeens. ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King The Weary Blues Langston Hughes Droning a drowsy syncopated tune, Rocking back and forth to a mellow croon, I heard a Negro play. Down on Lenox Avenue the other night By the pale dull pallor of an old gas light He did a lazy sway . . . He did a lazy sway . . . To the tune o' those Weary Blues. With his ebony hands on each ivory key He made that poor piano moan with melody. O Blues! Swaying to and fro on his rickety stool He played that sad raggy tune like a musical fool. Sweet Blues! Coming from a black man's soul. O Blues! In a deep song voice with a melancholy tone I heard that Negro sing, that old piano moan-- "Ain't got nobody in all this world, Ain't got nobody but ma self. I's gwine to quit ma frownin' And put ma troubles on the shelf." Thump, thump, thump, went his foot on the floor. He played a few chords then he sang some more-- "I got the Weary Blues And I can't be satisfied. Got the Weary Blues And can't be satisfied-- I ain't happy no mo' And I wish that I had died." And far into the night he crooned that tune. The stars went out and so did the moon. The singer stopped playing and went to bed While the Weary Blues echoed through his head. He slept like a rock or a man that's dead. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Sep 16 16:43:00 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 22:43:00 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] LitStation.com Message-ID: <00b901c5baff$3a88d540$402bb750@ANNY> I finally got it, laud/loud and clear. Great work, thank you, http://litstation.com/ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 16:48:29 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:48:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King In-Reply-To: <200509161927.j8GJR8Oc140234@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200509161927.j8GJR8Oc140234@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a050916134813ee7379@mail.gmail.com> Chris, That's a great song. It's called "How Blue Can You Get?" I don't know if BB wrote it or if the song is an old blue standard. The Allman Brothers do a pretty good cover of it, methinks. I played in blues bands for a good part of my late teens and early 20s--well, I sat in with a lot of bands. I never could get one together that stayed together. I've been a blues fan my whole life, and it all probably stems from my dad singing "Stackolee." Anywho, here're the lyrics: How Blue Can You Get B.B. King I've been down hearted baby, ever since the day we met; I've been down hearted baby ever since the day we met: our love is nothing but the blues-- baby, how blue can you get? My love is like a fire; your love is like a cigarette. My love is like a fire; but baby yours is like a cigarette. I watched you step down on it baby and crush it! Tell me how, tell me how how blue can you get? You're evil when i'm with you and you are jealous when we're apart. You're evil, you're so evil when I'm with you baby and you are jealous when we're apart: how blue can you get baby? The answer is right here in my heart I gave you a brand new Ford and you said "I want a Cadillac." I bought you a ten dollar dinner and you said "thanks for the snack!" I let you live in my penthouse you said it was just a shack! I gave you seven children and now you wanna to give 'em back! Yes I've been downhearted baby ever since the day we met: our love is nothing but the blues baby baby, how blue can you get? Chis wrote: > very cool---would love to hear it--- > > Also, someone asked about the spelling--- > aren't there many variations on this spelling of mr. Stack? > > Well, one of my fav BB King lyrics (don't think he wrote em) > is that song he does as a medly--based on juxtapositions-- > > the first one, sweet little angle, has > "i asked her for a little drink.....she gave me a whiskey still" > > and then later, (i'm paraphasing from vague memory) > "i took you to my mansion.....you called it shack > bought you dinner........you said thanks for the snack" > etc.... > > no time to look em up right now, but if you know you know! > C > > > ---------- > From: "The Old Mole" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King > Date: Fri, Sep 16, 2005, 8:51 AM > > > One of mine: > > > > > > STACKOLEE AND THE DEVIL > > * > * > *Stackolee went down to hell* > > *Lookin' mighty furious* > > *Devil said, "Where you come from, boy?"* > > *He told him, "East St. Louis."* > > * > * > *Stackolee said to the Devil,* > > *"Put your pitchfork on the shelf,* > > *I'm the bad man they call Stackolee > * > *Gonna rule Hell by myself."* > > * > * > * > * > The Devil sent a woman > > With a stomach made of rain > > Stackolee sucked her bones clean dry > > And sent her back again, > > > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil is gonna win* > > * > * > * > * > Stackolee took the Devil > > And he tied him to a rail > > Set fire ants to eat his horns > > And a goat to eat his tail > > > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil is gonna fail* > > * > * > * > * > Devil sent another woman > > Her eyes were made of coal > > Stackolee sent her back again > > They were red as a jelly roll > > > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil gonna take his toll* > > * > * > * > * > Stackolee took the Devil > > And he chained him to the air > > Put hornets all around his private parts > > And maggots in his hair > > > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil, he don't care* > > * > * > * > * > The Devil sent his daughter > > Took old Stackolee by the arm > > Walked him into the fiery pit, > > Stack says, "It's getting' warm" > > > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil gonna work a charm* > > * > * > * > * > Stackolee took off his gloves > > And loosened up his vest > > The Devil's daughter went and laid > > Her head against his chest > > > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, he's doin' what he do best* > > * > * > * > * > The devil's daughter took old Stack's hand > > And she placed it on her heart > > Fire so hot it fused them hard > > So they'd never come apart > > > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Oh, the Devil* > > *Come on and see the Devil's art > * > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org <*http://www.opus40.org*> > *http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > * > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Anny Ballardini <*mailto:anny.ballardini at tin.it*> > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views <*mailto: > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu*> > *Sent:* Friday, September 16, 2005 12:02 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King > > Most beautiful, it brought me back to my Newowleeens. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* The Old Mole <*mailto:tad at opus40.org*> > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views <*mailto: > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu*> > *Sent:* Friday, September 16, 2005 5:08 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King > > The Weary Blues > Langston Hughes > Droning a drowsy syncopated tune, > > Rocking back and forth to a mellow croon, > > I heard a Negro play. > > Down on Lenox Avenue the other night > > By the pale dull pallor of an old gas light > > He did a lazy sway . . . > > He did a lazy sway . . . > > To the tune o' those Weary Blues. > > With his ebony hands on each ivory key > > He made that poor piano moan with melody. > > O Blues! > > Swaying to and fro on his rickety stool > > He played that sad raggy tune like a musical fool. > > Sweet Blues! > > Coming from a black man's soul. > > O Blues! > > In a deep song voice with a melancholy tone > > I heard that Negro sing, that old piano moan-- > > "Ain't got nobody in all this world, > > Ain't got nobody but ma self. > > I's gwine to quit ma frownin' > > And put ma troubles on the shelf." > > > > Thump, thump, thump, went his foot on the floor. > > He played a few chords then he sang some more-- > > "I got the Weary Blues > > And I can't be satisfied. > > Got the Weary Blues > > And can't be satisfied-- > > I ain't happy no mo' > > And I wish that I had died." > > And far into the night he crooned that tune. > > The stars went out and so did the moon. > > The singer stopped playing and went to bed > > While the Weary Blues echoed through his head. > > He slept like a rock or a man that's dead. > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org <*http://www.opus40.org*> > *http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > * > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > *New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > * > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > *New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > * > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 16:58:53 2005 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:58:53 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, B.B. King In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05091606177ebe00de@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a05091606177ebe00de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <648208b605091613584ffac778@mail.gmail.com> I've done this one with a blues band: Upon Reading David Graham's "Upon Reading John Ashbery's Twenty-Fourth Collection of Poems" This guy's got it down, that slow-dance/fast-dance twitch that's like people dancing without music which is used to sell a pill for slow joints. The people dancing are not afflicted by that exactly, but are like bumper cars at Coney or Scat Sage's slo-mo repetition of freight train coupling, four hours of that cinematically enlarged and accompanied by a single soprano saxaphone, extreme upper register which is, we think, supposed to mimic singing steel as you hear it around 3 a.m. from across the river, practicing for disaster, highly reminiscent of Mrs. Gorley's chalk across the blackboard, as well as the famous shower scream that kept us dirty, gritty, and with an edge seeping from our collars, which did not bring stares, just a sort of accidental moving away. Digression can be the back teeth of a maw you didn't mean to kiss, whereas it was - to draw this out - those shiny incisors of his verbs eliciting comparison unto the dance, and what he wrote the about about is the sequined-dressed partner treated like an adjective, like there's only one noun in the world and we all know who that is. Say it big but say it quiet. We loved the way opening Penguin editions could get you lost in an elevator or make you put your foot out and down hard when you'd run out of stairs. Words about the words are like that but you can eat an icecream cone and keep an ear out for a kid's giveaway scream while you mull them over and hear multiple clicks when kaleidoscope pieces fall together into an acid doily. - Jim On 9/16/05, Jeff Newberry wrote: > As today is B.B. King's birthday, why not post your favorite blues poem > (interpret that phrase in any way that you see fit). From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 16 19:22:18 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 00:22:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, B.B. King References: Message-ID: <03d701c5bb15$7c107d90$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Happy Birthday, B.B. KingRobert Johnson was or is an immortal. Not sure if I would dare write a poem about him though. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views jeff.newberry at gmail.com, Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 2:50 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, B.B. King on 9/16/05 8:17 AM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: As today is B.B. King's birthday, why not post your favorite blues poem (interpret that phrase in any way that you see fit). ====================================== Not sure the following's my favorite (so many to choose from) but it's a sentimental favorite. The author's a former student of mine. This is from his first book. I've been meaning to send a notice about his second collection, which has recently been published. Stay tuned. Mississippi Delta Blues Musician's Picture Altered on Commemorative Stamp Presents More Positive image Me and the devil was walking side by side. I'm going to beat my woman until I get satisfied. Robert Johnson, "Me and the Devil Blues" Robert Johnson died young, strychnined whiskey someone's jealous husband slipped him down south, sang he'd use a pistol, "cut her half in two." His Postal Service stamp, the pesky, famous cigarette's erased. His fix-mouthed, grave face travels, stripped, through towns where he'd been known for fleeing hellhounds, drink, and playing blues so charged and stark some devil must have got his signature in blood. The fraying document holds up because I just have forty and one hundred syllables, near flawless trochees. Bones in time get picked dull. Johnson phoning agent: "This woman here said she'd pleasure me. I lacks a nickel." --Aaron Anstett. Sustenance. New Rivers Press, 1997. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Sep 16 21:40:37 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:40:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King References: <200509161927.j8GJR8Oc140234@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <001401c5bb28$d19ab470$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King"Sweet Little Angel" is one of my favorite B.B. King lyrics ("I've got a sweet little angel/I love the way she spreads her wings:). Another one is this: Yes, she's 36 in the bust, 28 in the waist, 44 in the hip, she got real crazy legs You upset me baby, yes, you upset me baby Yes, I'm telling you people she's something fine, that you really outta see Well, she's not too tall, complexion is fair, man she knocks me out the way she wears her hair You upset me baby, Yes, you upset me baby Like being hit by a fallen tree, woman, woman what you do to me Well I, tried to describe her, it's hard to start I better stop now because I got a very weak heart You upset me baby, well, you upset me baby Well like being hit by a fallen tree, woman, what you do to me Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Stroffolino To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King very cool---would love to hear it--- Also, someone asked about the spelling--- aren't there many variations on this spelling of mr. Stack? Well, one of my fav BB King lyrics (don't think he wrote em) is that song he does as a medly--based on juxtapositions-- the first one, sweet little angle, has "i asked her for a little drink.....she gave me a whiskey still" and then later, (i'm paraphasing from vague memory) "i took you to my mansion.....you called it shack bought you dinner........you said thanks for the snack" etc.... no time to look em up right now, but if you know you know! C ---------- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King Date: Fri, Sep 16, 2005, 8:51 AM One of mine: STACKOLEE AND THE DEVIL Stackolee went down to hell Lookin' mighty furious Devil said, "Where you come from, boy?" He told him, "East St. Louis." Stackolee said to the Devil, "Put your pitchfork on the shelf, I'm the bad man they call Stackolee Gonna rule Hell by myself." The Devil sent a woman With a stomach made of rain Stackolee sucked her bones clean dry And sent her back again, Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil is gonna win Stackolee took the Devil And he tied him to a rail Set fire ants to eat his horns And a goat to eat his tail Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil is gonna fail Devil sent another woman Her eyes were made of coal Stackolee sent her back again They were red as a jelly roll Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil gonna take his toll Stackolee took the Devil And he chained him to the air Put hornets all around his private parts And maggots in his hair Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil, he don't care The Devil sent his daughter Took old Stackolee by the arm Walked him into the fiery pit, Stack says, "It's getting' warm" Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil gonna work a charm Stackolee took off his gloves And loosened up his vest The Devil's daughter went and laid Her head against his chest Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, he's doin' what he do best The devil's daughter took old Stack's hand And she placed it on her heart Fire so hot it fused them hard So they'd never come apart Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Come on and see the Devil's art Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King Most beautiful, it brought me back to my Newowleeens. ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King The Weary Blues Langston Hughes Droning a drowsy syncopated tune, Rocking back and forth to a mellow croon, I heard a Negro play. Down on Lenox Avenue the other night By the pale dull pallor of an old gas light He did a lazy sway . . . He did a lazy sway . . . To the tune o' those Weary Blues. With his ebony hands on each ivory key He made that poor piano moan with melody. O Blues! Swaying to and fro on his rickety stool He played that sad raggy tune like a musical fool. Sweet Blues! Coming from a black man's soul. O Blues! In a deep song voice with a melancholy tone I heard that Negro sing, that old piano moan-- "Ain't got nobody in all this world, Ain't got nobody but ma self. I's gwine to quit ma frownin' And put ma troubles on the shelf." Thump, thump, thump, went his foot on the floor. He played a few chords then he sang some more-- "I got the Weary Blues And I can't be satisfied. Got the Weary Blues And can't be satisfied-- I ain't happy no mo' And I wish that I had died." And far into the night he crooned that tune. The stars went out and so did the moon. The singer stopped playing and went to bed While the Weary Blues echoed through his head. He slept like a rock or a man that's dead. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsillima at yahoo.com Sat Sep 17 09:07:00 2005 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 06:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Stanley Burnshaw, 99 Message-ID: <20050917130700.98922.qmail@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> September 17, 2005 Stanley Burnshaw, Poet, Editor and Critic, Dies at 99 By DOUGLAS MARTIN Stanley Burnshaw, a consummate man of letters who was not only a poet, critic, translator, editor, publisher and novelist, but also skilled at setting type by hand, died yesterday on Martha's Vineyard. He was 99. Susan Copen Oken, his wife, confirmed his death. Mr. Burnshaw roamed the peaks of the literary world, famously dueling with Wallace Stevens over poetry and politics; publishing and editing work by his friend Robert Frost; writing a biography of Frost; and publishing important books by Lionel Trilling. His own creative career spanned more than 70 years: five of his poems were published in 1927 in "The American Caravan: A Yearbook of American Literature," of which Lewis Mumford was an editor, and he published his final book, a poetry anthology, in 2002. "No one moved so widely and so well in so many avenues of literary creation and production," Thomas F. Staley, director of the Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center at the University of Texas at Austin, said in an interview yesterday. Morris Dickstein, the literary critic and English professor at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, said the strongest continuous thread in Mr. Burnshaw's intellectual journey was poetry. Mr. Burnshaw's 1970 book, "The Seamless Web," which probed the origins of poetic creativity, is probably his best known. "His extraordinary literary sensibility centers in poetry," Mr. Dickstein said in an interview yesterday. Stanley Burnshaw was born in Manhattan on June 20, 1906, to Eastern European immigrants. His father was a star student at Columbia but gave up an intellectual career to establish an orphanage in Westchester County in 1912. His goal was to turn the children into Renaissance men and women, and his son was a beneficiary of his intellectually rigorous experiment. Mr. Burnshaw graduated from the University of Pittsburgh in 1925, then worked in advertising for a steel mill. He published a little magazine, Poetry Folio, and set type by hand. In 1927, he went to France to study, and became acquainted with the poet Andr? Spire. His first book was "Andr? Spire and His Poetry" (1933), in which he explained Spire's innovative free verse. Eda Lou Walton, writing in The New York Times, called his study "one of the very few intelligent analyses" of this style of poetry in English. Between the trip and the book, he returned to advertising and also earned a master's degree from Cornell. Unable to find a teaching job, he became an editor at The New Masses, a Communist weekly. In 1935, he reviewed Wallace Stevens's "Ideas of Order" for the magazine, describing Stevens as "a man who, having lost his footing, now scrambles to stand up and keep his balance." Stevens, who was trying to respond to the social breakdown of the Depression, was enraged to be attacked on political grounds, and responded with a poem titled "Mr. Burnshaw and the Statue." (Mr. Burnshaw replied 25 years later in The Sewanee Review.) Mr. Burnshaw then wrote two stridently leftist works, one a book of poems and the other a verse play exploring the effects of technology distorted by greed. He was never actually a member of the Communist Party, and his rejection of Marxism as a solution to society's problems was signaled in 1945 with "The Revolt of the Cats in Paradise," a book-length prose poem. In the late 1930's, Mr. Burnshaw became editor-in-chief of the Cordon Company, a publishing house, and then president of his own house, Dryden Press, which merged with Holt, Rinehart & Winston in 1958. He stayed on with Holt and edited Frost's final works. Mr. Burnshaw recruited Trilling to speak at Frost's 85th-birthday celebration in 1959, a speech remembered for inspiring darker, more pessimistic interpretations of Frost's vision. Mr. Burnshaw also wrote "Robert Frost Himself" (1986), a biography many reviewers considered more balanced than some previous ones. Mr. Burnshaw's own poetry drew high praise. James Dickey wrote in The Times Book Review that "Caged in an Animal's Mind" (1963) "fused the European daring and total surrender to the unconscious - call it imagination or something less." "The Seamless Web," his book on poetics, the art and craft of creating and comprehending poetry, argued that the poetry experience was primal, almost biological. John Leonard applauded his gentle approach in The Times. "The man has written an important, challenging, exciting book, without ever asking us to admire him," he wrote. "He is all the more admirable for his reticence." In his 1960 book, "The Poem Itself: Forty-five Modern Poets in New Presentation," Mr. Burnshaw offered a new way to look at poems in another language. Each of the poems (all were from Europe or South America) was printed in its original language and followed by a line-by-line translation and an analysis of its construction. In effect, the book was a do-it-yourself translation kit. In 1965, he did a similar book on modern Hebrew poems. In 1981, Mr. Burnshaw published "The Refusers," a trilogy of novels about what he saw as the paradox of Judaism: "the seeming impossibility of belief in a just God of history and its necessity." In addition to his wife, Mr. Burnshaw is survived by his daughter, Valerie Razavi of Manhattan, and a grandson. Professor Staley said that Mr. Burnshaw was one of the first poets to write poems about the environment, and that he never stopped. At the beginning of his career, he reasoned that Communists would not hurt the earth to make a profit. At the end, taking better care of nature fit in with his writings about poetry as a living thing. "End of the Flower-World," a poem Mr. Burnshaw wrote in 1924 when he was 19, ends with this stanza: Fear no more for trees, but mourn instead The children of these strange, sad men: their hearts Will hear no music but the song of death. From tad at opus40.org Sat Sep 17 09:23:01 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:23:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stanley Burnshaw, 99 References: <20050917130700.98922.qmail@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01c5bb8a$f0aa22d0$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> What a wonderful career. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" To: "Poetics List" ; "New Poetics" Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 9:07 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Stanley Burnshaw, 99 September 17, 2005 Stanley Burnshaw, Poet, Editor and Critic, Dies at 99 By DOUGLAS MARTIN Stanley Burnshaw, a consummate man of letters who was not only a poet, critic, translator, editor, publisher and novelist, but also skilled at setting type by hand, died yesterday on Martha's Vineyard. He was 99. Susan Copen Oken, his wife, confirmed his death. Mr. Burnshaw roamed the peaks of the literary world, famously dueling with Wallace Stevens over poetry and politics; publishing and editing work by his friend Robert Frost; writing a biography of Frost; and publishing important books by Lionel Trilling. His own creative career spanned more than 70 years: five of his poems were published in 1927 in "The American Caravan: A Yearbook of American Literature," of which Lewis Mumford was an editor, and he published his final book, a poetry anthology, in 2002. "No one moved so widely and so well in so many avenues of literary creation and production," Thomas F. Staley, director of the Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center at the University of Texas at Austin, said in an interview yesterday. Morris Dickstein, the literary critic and English professor at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, said the strongest continuous thread in Mr. Burnshaw's intellectual journey was poetry. Mr. Burnshaw's 1970 book, "The Seamless Web," which probed the origins of poetic creativity, is probably his best known. "His extraordinary literary sensibility centers in poetry," Mr. Dickstein said in an interview yesterday. Stanley Burnshaw was born in Manhattan on June 20, 1906, to Eastern European immigrants. His father was a star student at Columbia but gave up an intellectual career to establish an orphanage in Westchester County in 1912. His goal was to turn the children into Renaissance men and women, and his son was a beneficiary of his intellectually rigorous experiment. Mr. Burnshaw graduated from the University of Pittsburgh in 1925, then worked in advertising for a steel mill. He published a little magazine, Poetry Folio, and set type by hand. In 1927, he went to France to study, and became acquainted with the poet Andr? Spire. His first book was "Andr? Spire and His Poetry" (1933), in which he explained Spire's innovative free verse. Eda Lou Walton, writing in The New York Times, called his study "one of the very few intelligent analyses" of this style of poetry in English. Between the trip and the book, he returned to advertising and also earned a master's degree from Cornell. Unable to find a teaching job, he became an editor at The New Masses, a Communist weekly. In 1935, he reviewed Wallace Stevens's "Ideas of Order" for the magazine, describing Stevens as "a man who, having lost his footing, now scrambles to stand up and keep his balance." Stevens, who was trying to respond to the social breakdown of the Depression, was enraged to be attacked on political grounds, and responded with a poem titled "Mr. Burnshaw and the Statue." (Mr. Burnshaw replied 25 years later in The Sewanee Review.) Mr. Burnshaw then wrote two stridently leftist works, one a book of poems and the other a verse play exploring the effects of technology distorted by greed. He was never actually a member of the Communist Party, and his rejection of Marxism as a solution to society's problems was signaled in 1945 with "The Revolt of the Cats in Paradise," a book-length prose poem. In the late 1930's, Mr. Burnshaw became editor-in-chief of the Cordon Company, a publishing house, and then president of his own house, Dryden Press, which merged with Holt, Rinehart & Winston in 1958. He stayed on with Holt and edited Frost's final works. Mr. Burnshaw recruited Trilling to speak at Frost's 85th-birthday celebration in 1959, a speech remembered for inspiring darker, more pessimistic interpretations of Frost's vision. Mr. Burnshaw also wrote "Robert Frost Himself" (1986), a biography many reviewers considered more balanced than some previous ones. Mr. Burnshaw's own poetry drew high praise. James Dickey wrote in The Times Book Review that "Caged in an Animal's Mind" (1963) "fused the European daring and total surrender to the unconscious - call it imagination or something less." "The Seamless Web," his book on poetics, the art and craft of creating and comprehending poetry, argued that the poetry experience was primal, almost biological. John Leonard applauded his gentle approach in The Times. "The man has written an important, challenging, exciting book, without ever asking us to admire him," he wrote. "He is all the more admirable for his reticence." In his 1960 book, "The Poem Itself: Forty-five Modern Poets in New Presentation," Mr. Burnshaw offered a new way to look at poems in another language. Each of the poems (all were from Europe or South America) was printed in its original language and followed by a line-by-line translation and an analysis of its construction. In effect, the book was a do-it-yourself translation kit. In 1965, he did a similar book on modern Hebrew poems. In 1981, Mr. Burnshaw published "The Refusers," a trilogy of novels about what he saw as the paradox of Judaism: "the seeming impossibility of belief in a just God of history and its necessity." In addition to his wife, Mr. Burnshaw is survived by his daughter, Valerie Razavi of Manhattan, and a grandson. Professor Staley said that Mr. Burnshaw was one of the first poets to write poems about the environment, and that he never stopped. At the beginning of his career, he reasoned that Communists would not hurt the earth to make a profit. At the end, taking better care of nature fit in with his writings about poetry as a living thing. "End of the Flower-World," a poem Mr. Burnshaw wrote in 1924 when he was 19, ends with this stanza: Fear no more for trees, but mourn instead The children of these strange, sad men: their hearts Will hear no music but the song of death. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Sep 17 09:44:44 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 06:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] comment In-Reply-To: <000d01c5bb8a$f0aa22d0$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <20050917134444.41223.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Bush's brand of shamanism has failed. As a shaman he decided to ignore science and pursue his feelings. Unfortunately his feelings have proved to be wrong. He is a man without a past, present or future. He had no birthdate and no future deathdate. I don't think that he's even the former President's son. It would be tempting to say that he's the Devil, but surely the Devil is both charming and interesting, full of character, wit and even menace. My abiding memory of the last week is the Mayor of New Orleans screaming and yelling on radio, 'someone for Christ's sakes do something'. But it all sounds like an attempt to plug the dyke after the dyke has broken. The rains washed away much more than New Orleans. They washed away an entire fake era of endeavour, hope, confidence in a brighter tomorrow and false nostalgia for an America of the imagination that never existed. The gleeful disdain for science and reason brought them to this point and now science must replace shamanism, rationalism must replace magic. Progressive revisionist psychosis cannot perpetually deny the connection between the hurricane and greenhouse gas emissions. www.theengine.net __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 17 10:29:57 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:29:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 122 Message-ID: William Carlos Williams was born this day 122 years ago. The Last Words Of My English Grandmother There were some dirty plates and a glass of milk beside her on a small table near the rank, disheveled bed? Wrinkled and nearly blind she lay and snored rousing with anger in her tones to cry for food, Gimme something to eat? They're starving me? I'm all right I won't go to the hospital. No, no, no Give me something to eat Let me take you to the hospital, I said and after you are well you can do as you please. She smiled, Yes you do what you please first then I can do what I please? Oh, oh, oh! she cried as the ambulance men lifted her to the stretcher? Is this what you call making me comfortable? By now her mind was clear? Oh you think you're smart you young people, she said, but I'll tell you you don't know anything. Then we started. On the way we passed a long row of elms. She looked at them awhile out of the ambulance window and said, What are all those fuzzy-looking things out there? Trees? Well, I'm tired of them and rolled her head away. -- William Carlos Williams ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 17 10:30:59 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:30:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stanley Burnshaw, 99 References: <20050917130700.98922.qmail@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03f701c5bb94$6d1f9f30$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> That is truly sad news, I still treasure a very worn copy of the Penguin 'The Poem Itself' which, as bewidered-eyed teenager, was my introduction to much of 20th century European verse, I first encountered writers like Vallejo, Machado, Char, Saba and others through its medium. S'p'se tho' one's sadness is mitigated with awareness of the delight and awareness SB spread. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" To: "Poetics List" ; "New Poetics" Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 2:07 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Stanley Burnshaw, 99 > September 17, 2005 > Stanley Burnshaw, Poet, Editor and Critic, Dies at 99 > By DOUGLAS MARTIN > > Stanley Burnshaw, a consummate man of letters who was not only a > poet, critic, translator, editor, publisher and novelist, but also > skilled at setting type by hand, died yesterday on Martha's Vineyard. > He was 99. > > Susan Copen Oken, his wife, confirmed his death. > > Mr. Burnshaw roamed the peaks of the literary world, famously dueling > with Wallace Stevens over poetry and politics; publishing and editing > work by his friend Robert Frost; writing a biography of Frost; and > publishing important books by Lionel Trilling. > > His own creative career spanned more than 70 years: five of his poems > were published in 1927 in "The American Caravan: A Yearbook of > American Literature," of which Lewis Mumford was an editor, and he > published his final book, a poetry anthology, in 2002. > > "No one moved so widely and so well in so many avenues of literary > creation and production," Thomas F. Staley, director of the Harry > Ransom Humanities Research Center at the University of Texas at > Austin, said in an interview yesterday. > > Morris Dickstein, the literary critic and English professor at the > Graduate Center of the City University of New York, said the > strongest continuous thread in Mr. Burnshaw's intellectual journey > was poetry. Mr. Burnshaw's 1970 book, "The Seamless Web," which > probed the origins of poetic creativity, is probably his best known. > > "His extraordinary literary sensibility centers in poetry," Mr. > Dickstein said in an interview yesterday. > > Stanley Burnshaw was born in Manhattan on June 20, 1906, to Eastern > European immigrants. His father was a star student at Columbia but > gave up an intellectual career to establish an orphanage in > Westchester County in 1912. His goal was to turn the children into > Renaissance men and women, and his son was a beneficiary of his > intellectually rigorous experiment. > > Mr. Burnshaw graduated from the University of Pittsburgh in 1925, > then worked in advertising for a steel mill. He published a little > magazine, Poetry Folio, and set type by hand. In 1927, he went to > France to study, and became acquainted with the poet Andr? Spire. > > His first book was "Andr? Spire and His Poetry" (1933), in which he > explained Spire's innovative free verse. Eda Lou Walton, writing in > The New York Times, called his study "one of the very few intelligent > analyses" of this style of poetry in English. > > Between the trip and the book, he returned to advertising and also > earned a master's degree from Cornell. Unable to find a teaching job, > he became an editor at The New Masses, a Communist weekly. > > In 1935, he reviewed Wallace Stevens's "Ideas of Order" for the > magazine, describing Stevens as "a man who, having lost his footing, > now scrambles to stand up and keep his balance." > > Stevens, who was trying to respond to the social breakdown of the > Depression, was enraged to be attacked on political grounds, and > responded with a poem titled "Mr. Burnshaw and the Statue." (Mr. > Burnshaw replied 25 years later in The Sewanee Review.) > > Mr. Burnshaw then wrote two stridently leftist works, one a book of > poems and the other a verse play exploring the effects of technology > distorted by greed. He was never actually a member of the Communist > Party, and his rejection of Marxism as a solution to society's > problems was signaled in 1945 with "The Revolt of the Cats in > Paradise," a book-length prose poem. > > In the late 1930's, Mr. Burnshaw became editor-in-chief of the Cordon > Company, a publishing house, and then president of his own house, > Dryden Press, which merged with Holt, Rinehart & Winston in 1958. He > stayed on with Holt and edited Frost's final works. > > Mr. Burnshaw recruited Trilling to speak at Frost's 85th-birthday > celebration in 1959, a speech remembered for inspiring darker, more > pessimistic interpretations of Frost's vision. Mr. Burnshaw also > wrote "Robert Frost Himself" (1986), a biography many reviewers > considered more balanced than some previous ones. > > Mr. Burnshaw's own poetry drew high praise. James Dickey wrote in The > Times Book Review that "Caged in an Animal's Mind" (1963) "fused the > European daring and total surrender to the unconscious - call it > imagination or something less." > > "The Seamless Web," his book on poetics, the art and craft of > creating and comprehending poetry, argued that the poetry experience > was primal, almost biological. John Leonard applauded his gentle > approach in The Times. > > "The man has written an important, challenging, exciting book, > without ever asking us to admire him," he wrote. "He is all the more > admirable for his reticence." > > In his 1960 book, "The Poem Itself: Forty-five Modern Poets in New > Presentation," Mr. Burnshaw offered a new way to look at poems in > another language. Each of the poems (all were from Europe or South > America) was printed in its original language and followed by a > line-by-line translation and an analysis of its construction. In > effect, the book was a do-it-yourself translation kit. In 1965, he > did a similar book on modern Hebrew poems. > > In 1981, Mr. Burnshaw published "The Refusers," a trilogy of novels > about what he saw as the paradox of Judaism: "the seeming > impossibility of belief in a just God of history and its necessity." > > In addition to his wife, Mr. Burnshaw is survived by his daughter, > Valerie Razavi of Manhattan, and a grandson. > > Professor Staley said that Mr. Burnshaw was one of the first poets to > write poems about the environment, and that he never stopped. At the > beginning of his career, he reasoned that Communists would not hurt > the earth to make a profit. At the end, taking better care of nature > fit in with his writings about poetry as a living thing. > > "End of the Flower-World," a poem Mr. Burnshaw wrote in 1924 when he > was 19, ends with this stanza: > > Fear no more for trees, but mourn instead > > The children of these strange, sad men: their hearts > > Will hear no music but the song of death. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 17 10:36:02 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:36:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 122 References: Message-ID: <041001c5bb95$2127e0f0$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> 122I'd forgotten about that poem, David, thanks for bringing it back so appropriately. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 3:29 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] 122 William Carlos Williams was born this day 122 years ago. The Last Words Of My English Grandmother There were some dirty plates and a glass of milk beside her on a small table near the rank, disheveled bed< Wrinkled and nearly blind she lay and snored rousing with anger in her tones to cry for food, Gimme something to eat< They're starving me< I'm all right I won't go to the hospital. No, no, no Give me something to eat Let me take you to the hospital, I said and after you are well you can do as you please. She smiled, Yes you do what you please first then I can do what I please< Oh, oh, oh! she cried as the ambulance men lifted her to the stretcher< Is this what you call making me comfortable? By now her mind was clear< Oh you think you're smart you young people, she said, but I'll tell you you don't know anything. Then we started. On the way we passed a long row of elms. She looked at them awhile out of the ambulance window and said, What are all those fuzzy-looking things out there? Trees? Well, I'm tired of them and rolled her head away. -- William Carlos Williams ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 17 11:15:04 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:15:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WCW In-Reply-To: <041001c5bb95$2127e0f0$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: on 9/17/05 9:36 AM, David Bircumshaw at david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com wrote: I'd forgotten about that poem, David, thanks for bringing it back so appropriately. Best Dave ================================= I'm curious as to how WCW's reputation stands in the U.K., if that can be summarized. Long ago when I visited London I was interested to see that for the Americans the bookshops mostly seemed to carry either formalist verse (Hecht, Wilbur, et al.) or poetry in the New American tradition, without much in the middle. In the U.S., the growth of Williams's reputation has been pretty amazing. In the imaginary "war" that Williams conducted in his mind most of his life against the influence of T. S. Eliot, Williams was always the usurper, the neglected one. Since his death, though, his influence spread like kudzu, and the history of American poetry in the second half of the 20th century has his name written all over it. Poets as different as Ginsberg, Lowell, Bly, and Ignatow, for instance, owe much to Willliams--not to mention various strands of the perpetual avant garde. The sheer range of Williams's work remains dazzling. Everything from Oriental imagist lyrics to *Paterson*, and all stops in between. Not to mention the essays, history, novels, short stories, and plays. In his poetry he's narrative, lyric, meditative, and dramatic; mainstream and experimental; populist and highbrow; accessible and opaque. Given his Neruda-like expansiveness, there's of course a good deal to dislike in Williams, and a lot of second rate work. But my goodness what a lot to admire and explore. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 17 18:49:52 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:49:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] WCW References: Message-ID: <043d01c5bbda$2057b250$87ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> WCWYeah, David, in the UK, as far as the bookshops will carry anything, in respect of US verse it certainly veers towards the formalist side. Now bear in mind as far as the market is concerned UK bookshops hate carrying almost any poetry, because poetry, although it can sell respectably, takes too long to do so, so it takes up shelfspace, unlike novels which are sudden and quick and quick in the public mind so they do their bit and are gone, books of poems can equal them in sales but they take so much longer in doing so. Things from the inheritance, that might be prescribed for exams, get space, so does Seamus Heaney, the late Ted Hughes, and a few others, but it is very poor really. So much of a writer like WCW is still unkown to many of the poetry reading public in the UK, as I said, I'd completely forgotten about that beautiful poem myself, and I'm a serious poetry nutter, so if that chance me, what about others? These matters are all about availability, and to link back to the tributes to Stanley Burnshaw, there was someone who worked for that. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 4:15 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] WCW on 9/17/05 9:36 AM, David Bircumshaw at david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com wrote: I'd forgotten about that poem, David, thanks for bringing it back so appropriately. Best Dave ================================= I'm curious as to how WCW's reputation stands in the U.K., if that can be summarized. Long ago when I visited London I was interested to see that for the Americans the bookshops mostly seemed to carry either formalist verse (Hecht, Wilbur, et al.) or poetry in the New American tradition, without much in the middle. In the U.S., the growth of Williams's reputation has been pretty amazing. In the imaginary "war" that Williams conducted in his mind most of his life against the influence of T. S. Eliot, Williams was always the usurper, the neglected one. Since his death, though, his influence spread like kudzu, and the history of American poetry in the second half of the 20th century has his name written all over it. Poets as different as Ginsberg, Lowell, Bly, and Ignatow, for instance, owe much to Willliams--not to mention various strands of the perpetual avant garde. The sheer range of Williams's work remains dazzling. Everything from Oriental imagist lyrics to *Paterson*, and all stops in between. Not to mention the essays, history, novels, short stories, and plays. In his poetry he's narrative, lyric, meditative, and dramatic; mainstream and experimental; populist and highbrow; accessible and opaque. Given his Neruda-like expansiveness, there's of course a good deal to dislike in Williams, and a lot of second rate work. But my goodness what a lot to admire and explore. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 18 17:20:57 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 16:20:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoon Knows Message-ID: Tea at the Palaz of Hoon Not less because in purple I descended The western day through what you called The loneliest air, not less was I myself. What was the ointment sprinkled on my beard? What were the hymns that buzzed beside my ears? What was the sea whose tide swept through me there? Out of my mind the golden ointment rained, And my ears made the blowing hymns they heard. I was myself the compass of that sea: I was the world in which I walked, and what I saw Or heard or felt came not but from myself; And there I found myself more truly and more strange. --Wallace Stevens ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Sep 18 17:34:51 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:34:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ideas of Hoon Knows References: Message-ID: <004001c5bc98$ce2ec670$29668b56@Robin> From: "David Graham" > Tea at the Palaz of Hoon I was struck when David posted this, what I'd not noticed before, how the last four lines anticipate an aspect of "The Idea of Order At Key West" -- a link between the Harmonium and the post-Harmonium poems? Also hints of the archaic god in "Sunday Morning"? I often think it's difficult to read Stevens' poems apart from each other. Robin Wallace Stevens (1879 - 1955) The Idea Of Order At Key West She sang beyond the genius of the sea. The water never formed to mind or voice, Like a body wholly body, fluttering Its empty sleeves; and yet its mimic motion Made constant cry, caused constantly a cry, That was not ours although we understood, Inhuman, of the veritable ocean. The sea was not a mask. No more was she. The song and water were not medleyed sound Even if what she sang was what she heard, Since what she sang was uttered word by word. It may be that in all her phrases stirred The grinding water and the gasping wind; But it was she and not the sea we heard. For she was the maker of the song she sang. The ever-hooded, tragic-gestured sea Was merely a place by which she walked to sing. Whose spirit is this? we said, because we knew It was the spirit that we sought and knew That we should ask this often as she sang. If it was only the dark voice of the sea That rose, or even colored by many waves; If it was only the outer voice of sky And cloud, of the sunken coral water-walled, However clear, it would have been deep air, The heaving speech of air, a summer sound Repeated in a summer without end And sound alone. But it was more than that, More even than her voice, and ours, among The meaningless plungings of water and the wind, Theatrical distances, bronze shadows heaped On high horizons, mountainous atmospheres Of sky and sea. It was her voice that made The sky acutest at its vanishing. She measured to the hour its solitude. She was the single artificer of the world In which she sang. And when she sang, the sea, Whatever self it had, became the self That was her song, for she was the maker. Then we, As we beheld her striding there alone, Knew that there was never a world for her Except the one she sang and, singing, made. Ramon Fernandez, tell me, if you know, Why, when the singing ended and we turned Toward the town, tell why the glassy lights, The lights in the fishing boats at anchor there, As the night descended, tilting in the air, Mastered the night and portioned out the sea, Fixing emblazoned zones and fiery poles, Arranging, deepening, enchanting night. Oh! Blessed rage for order, pale Ramon, The maker's rage to order words of sea Words of the fragrant portals, dimly-starred, And of ourselves and our origins, In ghostlier demarcations, keener sounds. > Tea at the Palaz of Hoon > > Not less because in purple I descended > The western day through what you called > The loneliest air, not less was I myself. > > What was the ointment sprinkled on my beard? > What were the hymns that buzzed beside my ears? > What was the sea whose tide swept through me there? > > Out of my mind the golden ointment rained, > And my ears made the blowing hymns they heard. > I was myself the compass of that sea: > > I was the world in which I walked, and what I saw > Or heard or felt came not but from myself; > And there I found myself more truly and more strange. > > --Wallace Stevens From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Sep 18 17:36:19 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:36:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: Unspecified Horrors Message-ID: <5b8d8bb630ba713748eef2d6659cb58b@earthlink.net> Sonnet:? Unspecified Horrors? Take a life like yours. Echinacea does nothing to cure your latest cold. Trademarks and logos borrowed without attribution. In other words, not in the lifetime of President Pigg. Pipelining collected terms you object to,?imagining the beach during January, when all have returned to the city. We try to assure that the biblical prophecies anent World?s End will be fulfilled in short order,?so? don?t waste your efforts on massive reconstructions, unless, of course, there are short-term pay-offs to be enjoyed. The tree bends over the old man, but he hasn?t noticed. Who would have thought the levee? might break? Who would have thought that could happen? You, sliding down into gunk now, farewell! Hal Halvard Johnson ================ email: halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Sep 18 17:38:35 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:38:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: Unspecified Horrors Message-ID: Sonnet:? Unspecified Horrors? Take a life like yours. Echinacea does nothing to cure your latest cold. Trademarks and logos borrowed without attribution. In other words, not in the lifetime of President Pigg. Pipelining collected terms you object to,?imagining the beach during January, when all have returned to the city. We try to assure that the biblical prophecies anent World?s End will be fulfilled in short order,?so? don?t waste your efforts on massive reconstructions, unless, of course, there are short-term pay-offs to be enjoyed. The tree bends over the old man, but he hasn?t noticed. Who would have thought the levee? might break? Who would have thought that could happen? You, sliding down into gunk now, farewell! Hal Halvard Johnson ================ email: halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 18 17:44:14 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:44:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ideas of Hoon Knows References: <004001c5bc98$ce2ec670$29668b56@Robin> Message-ID: <002201c5bc9a$1d90edf0$35b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> It made me think of his bunny rabbit poem. --Bob G. From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Sep 18 19:17:55 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 15:17:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ideas of Hoon Knows Message-ID: <200509182153.j8ILrkKn122728@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> yeah, that's a good connection Robin. I think there's a lot of connections between harmonium and post-harmonium poems, in various ways.... I don't want to reduce the Hoon poem, but one thing I like about it is that the speaker, "Hoon," could be read as equivalent to "the sun." C ---------- >From: "Robin Hamilton" >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ideas of Hoon Knows >Date: Sun, Sep 18, 2005, 1:34 PM > > From: "David Graham" > >> Tea at the Palaz of Hoon > > I was struck when David posted this, what I'd not noticed before, how the > last four lines anticipate an aspect of "The Idea of Order At Key West" -- a > link between the Harmonium and the post-Harmonium poems? > > Also hints of the archaic god in "Sunday Morning"? > > I often think it's difficult to read Stevens' poems apart from each other. > > Robin > > Wallace Stevens (1879 - 1955) > The Idea Of Order At Key West > > She sang beyond the genius of the sea. > The water never formed to mind or voice, > Like a body wholly body, fluttering > Its empty sleeves; and yet its mimic motion > Made constant cry, caused constantly a cry, > That was not ours although we understood, > Inhuman, of the veritable ocean. > > The sea was not a mask. No more was she. > The song and water were not medleyed sound > Even if what she sang was what she heard, > Since what she sang was uttered word by word. > It may be that in all her phrases stirred > The grinding water and the gasping wind; > But it was she and not the sea we heard. > > For she was the maker of the song she sang. > The ever-hooded, tragic-gestured sea > Was merely a place by which she walked to sing. > Whose spirit is this? we said, because we knew > It was the spirit that we sought and knew > That we should ask this often as she sang. > > If it was only the dark voice of the sea > That rose, or even colored by many waves; > If it was only the outer voice of sky > And cloud, of the sunken coral water-walled, > However clear, it would have been deep air, > The heaving speech of air, a summer sound > Repeated in a summer without end > And sound alone. But it was more than that, > More even than her voice, and ours, among > The meaningless plungings of water and the wind, > Theatrical distances, bronze shadows heaped > On high horizons, mountainous atmospheres > Of sky and sea. > It was her voice that made > The sky acutest at its vanishing. > She measured to the hour its solitude. > She was the single artificer of the world > In which she sang. And when she sang, the sea, > Whatever self it had, became the self > That was her song, for she was the maker. Then we, > As we beheld her striding there alone, > Knew that there was never a world for her > Except the one she sang and, singing, made. > > Ramon Fernandez, tell me, if you know, > Why, when the singing ended and we turned > Toward the town, tell why the glassy lights, > The lights in the fishing boats at anchor there, > As the night descended, tilting in the air, > Mastered the night and portioned out the sea, > Fixing emblazoned zones and fiery poles, > Arranging, deepening, enchanting night. > > Oh! Blessed rage for order, pale Ramon, > The maker's rage to order words of sea > Words of the fragrant portals, dimly-starred, > And of ourselves and our origins, > In ghostlier demarcations, keener sounds. > > >> Tea at the Palaz of Hoon >> >> Not less because in purple I descended >> The western day through what you called >> The loneliest air, not less was I myself. >> >> What was the ointment sprinkled on my beard? >> What were the hymns that buzzed beside my ears? >> What was the sea whose tide swept through me there? >> >> Out of my mind the golden ointment rained, >> And my ears made the blowing hymns they heard. >> I was myself the compass of that sea: >> >> I was the world in which I walked, and what I saw >> Or heard or felt came not but from myself; >> And there I found myself more truly and more strange. >> >> --Wallace Stevens > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Sep 18 18:05:34 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:05:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoon Knows Message-ID: <203.a5e6985.305f3eae@cs.com> He was a very strange person. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Sep 18 18:44:01 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:44:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: Unspecified Horrors References: <5b8d8bb630ba713748eef2d6659cb58b@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001701c5bca2$79b07b20$6901a8c0@MoleHQ> Like this one a lot. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 5:36 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet: Unspecified Horrors Sonnet: Unspecified Horrors Take a life like yours. Echinacea does nothing to cure your latest cold. Trademarks and logos borrowed without attribution. In other words, not in the lifetime of President Pigg. Pipelining collected terms you object to, imagining the beach during January, when all have returned to the city. We try to assure that the biblical prophecies anent World?s End will be fulfilled in short order, so don?t waste your efforts on massive reconstructions, unless, of course, there are short-term pay-offs to be enjoyed. The tree bends over the old man, but he hasn?t noticed. Who would have thought the levee might break? Who would have thought that could happen? You, sliding down into gunk now, farewell! Hal Halvard Johnson ================ email: halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 18 20:15:06 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:15:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ideas of Hoon Knows In-Reply-To: <002201c5bc9a$1d90edf0$35b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 9/18/05 4:44 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > It made me think of his bunny rabbit poem. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ A Rabbit As King Of The Ghosts The difficulty to think at the end of day, When the shapeless shadow covers the sun And nothing is left except light on your fur? There was the cat slopping its milk all day, Fat cat, red tongue, green mind, white milk And August the most peaceful month. To be, in the grass, in the peacefullest time, Without that monument of cat, The cat forgotten on the moon; And to feel that the light is a rabbit-light In which everything is meant for you And nothing need be explained; Then there is nothing to think of. It comes of itself; And east rushes west and west rushes down, No matter. The grass is full And full of yourself. The trees around are for you, The whole of the wideness of night is for you, A self that touches all edges, You become a self that fills the four corners of night. The red cat hides away in the fur-light And there you are humped high, humped up, You are humped higher and higher, black as stone? You sit with your head like a carving in space And the little green cat is a bug in the grass. Wallace Stevens ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsillima at yahoo.com Mon Sep 19 03:34:58 2005 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 00:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <20050919073458.5041.qmail@web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS Robert Bolano & the art of extreme consequences A new review of the Lawrence Renaissance Born into Brothels ? children at risk Escape from New Orleans ? the flight of Bill Lavender & Nancy Dixon This is not Rosmarie, This is not Keith - Memoirs of the Waldrops The film hidden in the movie ? The Constant Gardner and testing western medicine The Americanization of Marjorie ? The Vienna Paradox of M. Perloff The Art of 9/11 Jim Behrle and his Silliman Sitcom Lisa Robertson & Rousseau?s Boat Minimalism of the middle ground: Chuck Stebelton & Precious The miracle is that it works ? Terry Gilliam & chaos in The Brothers Grimm Summer reading http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Sep 19 07:48:37 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:48:37 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iceman Message-ID: <003401c5bd10$1272b180$7ea93452@ANNY> By Garrison Keillor on today's Almanac, what he says is all true but I did not know the end of the story. Surprising is what I can learn from _the States_ even in this case, the town that after various meetings and arguments hosts the Iceman is Bolzano-Bozen where I live. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was on this day in 1991 that a body was found frozen in a glacier in the Alps between Austria and Italy. A German tourist found the body and called the Austrian police. They tried to free the body from the ice with a jackhammer. It was only when an anthropologist showed up to examine the body that they realized it was a very, very old corpse-5,300 years old, in fact-of a man between 25 and 35 years old. He was five feet, two inches tall, with hair about three inches long. He had tattoos. He wore an unlined fur robe, a woven grass cape, and size six shoes stuffed with grass for warmth. He came to be called the Iceman, and what made him such a remarkable discovery for anthropologists was the fact that he died while he was out walking on an ordinary day wearing ordinary clothing. He carried a copper axe and a fur quiver for his arrows, the only quiver from the Neolithic period that has ever been found. His arrows had sharp flint points and feathers that were affixed at an angle that would cause the arrows to spin. And he carried mushrooms in his bag that scientists speculate were used for medicine. It was not until ten years later that a forensics expert noticed in an x-ray that the Iceman had an arrowhead lodged in his back. He had been murdered. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boydspahr.carafe at bluetie.com Mon Sep 19 14:33:45 2005 From: boydspahr.carafe at bluetie.com (Boyd Spahr) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 14:33:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Early/McHenry, McSweeney/Davis, Bruno/Waters, Downing/Diaz-Balart Message-ID: <20050919143345.24698@web2.app.nyc1.bluetie.com> Next 4 in the Order & Decorum series at www.personnagesobscurs.com: #27 Tim Early (Patrick McHenry, R-10th NC) #28 Joyelle McSweeney (Artur Davis, D-7th AL) #29 Franklin Bruno (Maxine Waters, D-35th CA) #30 Brandon Downing (Lincoln Diaz-Balart, R-21st Fl) McHenry: "Marriage, family and community are not just catch phrases; they are the backbone of American society. Sadly, however, there is an organized effort by the radical left and their allies in Hollywood and academia to destroy our traditional American culture. America is an inclusive nation and we respect other cultures and traditions, but we must defend what is sacred in our country from the reckless actions of a dangerous few who seek to impose their radical view on all of society." >From academia, - Boyd S. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Sep 19 15:26:26 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:26:26 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] blackmedina Message-ID: <020701c5bd50$07659ba0$7ea93452@ANNY> Blackbird All night a blackbird sings outside my window. I sleep for an hour and wake to the cat crying at the door. There's morning light behind the curtains. It's five am and fifteen years ago. I want to get up and walk to the lake with my friends, stand around in the mist as the sun comes up and go back to breakfast and lectures with something changed, a knowledge that will mark us out from the others. The light behind the curtains is a street lamp and as the birdsong loops and coils towards me I think of holding the day ahead. My days are heavier now. Or something else is different. Fiona Robyn from: http://blackmedina.net/poetry/robyn/blackbird.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Sep 19 21:24:38 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:24:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland on e-verse Message-ID: Commercial for a Summer Night That one night in the middle of the summer when people move their chairs outside and put their TVs on the porch so the dark is full of murmuring blue lights. We were drinking beer with the sound off, watching the figures on the screen-- the bony blondes, the lean-jawed guys who decorate the perfume and the cars-- the pretty ones the merchandise is wearing this year. Alex said, I wish they made a shooting gallery using people like that. Greg said, That woman has a Ph.D. in Face Then we saw a preview for a movie about a movie star who is having a movie made about her, and Boz said, This country is getting stupider every year. Then Greg said that things were better in the sixties and Rus said that Harold Bloom said that Nietzsche said Nostalgia is the blank check issued to a weak mind, and Greg said, They didn't have checks back then, stupid, and Susan said It's too bad you guys can't get Spellcheck for your brains. Then Greg left and Margaret arrived and a breeze carried honeysuckle fumes across the yard, and Alex finished his quart of beer and Boz leaned back in his chair and the beautiful people on the TV screen moved back and forth and back, looking very much now like shooting-gallery ducks-- and we sat in quiet pleasure on the shore of night, as a tide came in and turned and carried us, folding chairs and all, far out from the coastline of America in a perfect commercial for our lives. --Tony Hoagland ------------------------------------------- Tony Hoagland was born in 1953 in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. His collections of poetry include What Narcissism Means to Me (Graywolf Press, 2003); Donkey Gospel (1998), which received the James Laughlin Award; and Sweet Ruin (1992), chosen by Donald Justice for the 1992 Brittingham Prize in Poetry and winner of the Zacharis Award from Emerson College. His other honors include two grants from the National Endowment for the Arts and a fellowship to the Provincetown Fine Arts Work Center. His poems and critical writings have appeared in such publications as Ploughshares, Agni, Threepenny Review, Gettysburg Review, American Poetry Review, Harvard Review, and the 1991 Pushcart Prize anthology. He currently teaches at the University of Pittsburgh. ------------------------------------------- "Commercial for a Summer Night" copyright 2003 by Tony Hoagland. From What Narcissism Means to Me. Used with the permission of Graywolf Press, Saint Paul, Minnesota (www.graywolfpress.org ). ------------------------------------------- E-verse is a free service presented by Milkweed Editions (www.milkweed.org ). For more information or to unsubscribe, please email us at webmaster at milkweed.org. Sign up a friend for E-verse at www.milkweed.org/e-verse.html Enjoy your week! ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Sep 20 11:30:23 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:30:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maverick Message-ID: I just discovered the online magazine *Maverick*, which is well worth a visit. http://maverickmagazine.com/ Quite a few poets new to me, along with some (Bill Knott, e.g.) who are not. Here's a poem from the 2000 issue: Tearing It Down Janet Kenning When I left the trailer, when I left The pantry filled with soup cans past their expiration date, When I left the living room busy with paint And laundry ?some clean, some dirty shirts? When I left the chipped sink crusted with dishes, The antique glass doors stacked in the corner, The refrigerator hummed, the space-heater danced In the bathroom, light streamed in the dirty curtains, It was still morning, I hadn't washed my face, hadn't eaten, Like almost everyone who was leaving, I thought it would be for a short while. Maverick Magazine 2 (2000) http://maverickmagazine.com/2maverickmagazine/kenning--tearingitdown.htm ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Sep 21 02:12:09 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 01:12:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sharon Olds says NO Bush Invitation In-Reply-To: <003401c5bd10$1272b180$7ea93452@ANNY> References: <003401c5bd10$1272b180$7ea93452@ANNY> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050921010908.028f9a58@mail.ilstu.edu> [I edited out some of the letter, which can be found on the Common Dreams website - Gabe] : http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0920-29.htm Published on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 by The Nation (October 10, 2005 Issue) No Place for a Poet at a Banquet of Shame by Sharon Olds For reasons spelled out below, the poet Sharon Olds has declined to attend the National Book Festival in Washington, which, coincidentally or not, takes place September 24, the day of an antiwar mobilization in the capital. Olds, winner of a National Book Critics Circle Award and professor of creative writing at New York University, was invited along with a number of other writers by First Lady Laura Bush to read from their works. Three years ago artist Jules Feiffer declined to attend the festival's White House breakfast as a protest against the Iraq War ("Mr. Feiffer Regrets," November 11, 2002). We suggest that invitees to this year's event consider following their example. --The Editors Laura Bush First Lady The White House Dear Mrs. Bush, I am writing to let you know why I am not able to accept your kind invitation to give a presentation at the National Book Festival on September 24, or to attend your dinner at the Library of Congress or the breakfast at the White House. In one way, it's a very appealing invitation. The idea of speaking at a festival attended by 85,000 people is inspiring! The possibility of finding new readers is exciting for a poet in personal terms, and in terms of the desire that poetry serve its constituents--all of us who need the pleasure, and the inner and outer news, it delivers. [....] I tried to see my way clear to attend the festival in order to bear witness--as an American who loves her country and its principles and its writing--against this undeclared and devastating war. But I could not face the idea of breaking bread with you. I knew that if I sat down to eat with you, it would feel to me as if I were condoning what I see to be the wild, highhanded actions of the Bush Administration. What kept coming to the fore of my mind was that I would be taking food from the hand of the First Lady who represents the Administration that unleashed this war and that wills its continuation, even to the extent of permitting "extraordinary rendition": flying people to other countries where they will be tortured for us. So many Americans who had felt pride in our country now feel anguish and shame, for the current regime of blood, wounds and fire. I thought of the clean linens at your table, the shining knives and the flames of the candles, and I could not stomach it. Sincerely, Sharon Olds ? 2005 The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Sep 21 06:29:53 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 05:29:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sharon Olds says NO Bush Invitation In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050921010908.028f9a58@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: If Olds manages to stop the Iraq war, maybe she can lend her voice to opposing the war against free speech on college campuses. ? Education Programs May Have a ?Disposition? for Censorship: Disturbed by National Trend, FIRE Defends Liberty from Coast to Coast ? PULLMAN, Wash., September 21, 2005?A new trend in campus censorship is emerging: this summer, Washington State University used ?dispositions? theory to punish an education student for his political and religious expression. The university relented only after the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) became involved. ? ?Dispositions? theory, increasingly in vogue in education programs, requires professors to evaluate their students? commitment to concepts such as ?social justice? and ?diversity? in conjunction with their actual scholastic achievement. Just last month, FIRE had to intervene when Brooklyn College professor K. C. Johnson was threatened with a secret investigation for questioning the use of the theory at his college. ? Then, Washington State?s College of Education threatened 42-year-old student Ed Swan with dismissal for allegedly violating two vague ?disposition? standards. Swan was also subjected to mandatory diversity training?all because of clearly protected speech. ? ??Diversity? and ?social justice? do not mean the same thing to everyone,? remarked David French, president of FIRE. ?By using such vague and politically charged criteria for evaluating future teachers, colleges all but guarantee that students will be punished for their opinions rather than evaluated on the basis of their abilities.? ? At Brooklyn College, Johnson publicly called ?dispositions? theory a method of enforcing ideological conformity. In response, his own faculty union held an ?emergency academic freedom meeting? at which he was threatened with a secret inquisition into his views. Since college administrators refused to help him, and he had faced a similar inquisition in 2002, Johnson sought FIRE?s aid. Shortly after going public, FIRE received notification that the college disavowed any secret investigation. ? Meanwhile, across the country, Washington State University?s treatment of Swan was providing a chilling example of why ?dispositions? concerned Professor Johnson. When one professor specifically invited him to ?write what you really feel? and ?feel comfortable in class,? Swan did so. He noted, for example, that he is a ?conservative Christian,? believes that ?white privilege and male privilege do not exist,? and opposes gun control. Swan then received negative evaluations on ?dispositions? commanding him to be ?sensitive to community and cultural norms,? ?appreciate[e] and valu[e] human diversity,? and ?sho[w] respect for others? varied talents and perspectives??expressly because of his beliefs. ? These poor evaluations led Washington State to subject Swan to diversity training and order him to sign an agreement to abide by all the ?dispositions? to his professors? satisfaction, under penalty of dismissal. After FIRE informed Washington State President V. Lane Rawlins that this agreement represented an unconstitutional loyalty oath?in this case, loyalty to the university?s approved political viewpoints?Washington State quickly agreed to rescind the requirement. It also later agreed not to use ?dispositions? theory in an unconstitutional manner. ? ?We are happy that Washington State has agreed to stop misusing its ?dispositions? requirement,? FIRE?s French continued. ?But WSU should abandon such broad and vague standards altogether, as they will almost certainly lead to future abuses.? ? ?FIRE will continue to monitor Washington State closely, along with the use of ?dispositions? theory nationwide,? concluded FIRE Director of Legal and Public Advocacy Greg Lukianoff. ?Too many education departments seem to be eager to use this theory to construct unconstitutional systems of ideological coercion.? ? Swan?s case comes at a time when Washington State has shown an embarrassing lack of respect for the rights of its students. Its administration continues to refuse to make amends for financing a group of students? disruptive heckling of a controversial play this spring. Responses to recent open records requests reveal that the university not only financed the disruptive heckling, but also helped plan it. ? FIRE is a nonprofit educational foundation that unites civil rights and civil liberties leaders, scholars, journalists, and public intellectuals from across the political and ideological spectrum on behalf of individual rights, due process, freedom of expression, academic freedom, and rights of conscience at our nation?s colleges and universities. FIRE?s efforts to preserve liberty at Washington State University can be viewed at thefire.org/wsu. ? CONTACT: David French, President, FIRE: 215-717-3473; david at thefire.org Greg Lukianoff, Director of Legal and Public Advocacy, FIRE: 215-717-3473; greg at thefire.org V. Lane Rawlins, President, Washington State University: 509-335-6666; rawlins at wsu.edu ? ? FIRE's work is made possible by the generosity of our individual supporters. Please click here to make your tax-deductible contribution. Click here if you do not want to receive further emails. On 9/21/05 1:12 AM, "Gabriel Gudding" wrote: > [I edited out some of the letter, which can be found on the Common Dreams > website - Gabe] : http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0920-29.htm > > > Published on Tuesday, > September 20, 2005 by The Nation (October 10, 2005 > Issue) > No Place for a Poet at a Banquet of Shame > by Sharon Olds > > > For reasons spelled out below, the poet Sharon Olds has declined to attend the > National Book Festival in Washington, which, coincidentally or not, takes > place September 24, the day of an antiwar mobilization in the capital. Olds, > winner of a National Book Critics Circle Award and professor of creative > writing at New York University, was invited along with a number of other > writers by First Lady Laura Bush to read from their works. Three years ago > artist Jules Feiffer declined to attend the festival's White House breakfast > as a protest against the Iraq War ("Mr. Feiffer Regrets," November 11, 2002). > We suggest that invitees to this year's event consider following their > example. > --The Editors > > Laura Bush > First Lady > The White House > > Dear Mrs. Bush, > > I am writing to let you know why I am not able to accept your kind invitation > to give a presentation at the National Book Festival on September 24, or to > attend your dinner at the Library of Congress or the breakfast at the White > House. > > In one way, it's a very appealing invitation. The idea of speaking at a > festival attended by 85,000 people is inspiring! The possibility of finding > new readers is exciting for a poet in personal terms, and in terms of the > desire that poetry serve its constituents--all of us who need the pleasure, > and the inner and outer news, it delivers. > > [....] > > I tried to see my way clear to attend the festival in order to bear > witness--as an American who loves her country and its principles and its > writing--against this undeclared and devastating war. > > But I could not face the idea of breaking bread with you. I knew that if I sat > down to eat with you, it would feel to me as if I were condoning what I see to > be the wild, highhanded actions of the Bush Administration. > > What kept coming to the fore of my mind was that I would be taking food from > the hand of the First Lady who represents the Administration that unleashed > this war and that wills its continuation, even to the extent of permitting > "extraordinary rendition": flying people to other countries where they will be > tortured for us. > > So many Americans who had felt pride in our country now feel anguish and > shame, for the current regime of blood, wounds and fire. I thought of the > clean linens at your table, the shining knives and the flames of the candles, > and I could not stomach it. > > Sincerely, > > Sharon Olds > > ? 2005 The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Sep 21 16:22:46 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:22:46 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <200509211600.j8LG03M3027270@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200509211600.j8LG03M3027270@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Professor Gudding persists to propound any number of urban legends. Such behavior continues the destructive connection of literary poetry and antiAmerican RadLib political activism. But just as in the case of the nitwit, Cindy Sheehan, who is now persona non grata (pre Fort Marcy Park level) in the Hillarity Kamp because she denounced her supreme High Queen for backing the Iraq Intervention, the Sixties Retread, Sharon Olds, porno poetess and guilt-mongering quack, such canards are refuted with honest research, something that the RadLib poetry community from Berkeley to Naropa to Harvard doesn't like to practice because it contradicts their ideological imperative. Remember what Marx taught: A lie told in support of International Socialism is not a lie, it is a tool for the Utopia to be born. Careful readers will note that neither Professor Gudding nor the "Porno Poetess" have ever taken responsibility for the attack on the Christian children by the Klintoon firebombers at Waco, Texas or for the forced abduction of little Emelio Gonzalez by the Attorney General, Janet "Sappho" Reno from the free ground of Miami, Florida, and his subsequent repatriation to and brainwashing by the Communist Party of Cuba. Careful readers will also note that the antiAmerican guilt-ridden porno poetess, Sharon Olds, is careful to not mention the canards that failed: Abu G., Club Gitmo, Burkett/Mapes/Rather Fake Documents Scandal, et al. Nor does has she ever acknowledged the torture chambers and gulags of Saddam, North Korea, Cuba, Commie China all run by LeftWing GrasciIstical RadLib Totalitarian monsters. Professor Gudding takes his quotation from The Nation magazine, a propaganda outlet of anti-American dissident Marxians led by the harpy gleam-eyed witch, Katrina "Hurricane" Vanden Heuvel, whose eyes gleam almost as maniacally Bates Hotel-like as Eleanor Clift's. No, they're tied, yes, fit to be tied equally. Or, to do the tying. R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > >LARK Spurred > >Claim: Under the LARK program, Taliban detainees are being housed >with liberals who disagree with the government's treatment of >prisoners kept at Guantanamo Bay. >Status: False. >Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2005] > >A person wrote a letter to the White House complaining about the >treatment of a captive taken during the Afghanistan war. Attached is >a copy of a letter they received back: >The White House >1600 Pennsylvania Avenue >Washington, D.C., 20016 >Dear Concerned Citizen: >Thank you for your recent letter roundly criticizing our treatment >of the Taliban and Al Qaeda detainees currently being held at >Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. >Our administration takes these matters seriously, and your opinion >was heard loud and clear here in Washington. You'll be pleased to >learn that, thanks to the concerns of citizens like you, we are >creating a new division of the Terrorist Retraining Program, to be >called the "Liberals Accept Responsibility for Killers" program, or >LARK for short. In accordance with the guidelines of this new >program, we have decided to place one terrorist under your personal >care. >Your personal detainee has been selected and scheduled for >transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence next >Monday. Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) >is to be cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded >in your letter of admonishment. It will likely be necessary for you >to hire some assistant caretakers. We will conduct weekly >inspections to ensure that your standards of care for Ahmed are >commensurate with those you so strongly recommended in your letter. >Although Ahmed is sociopathic and extremely violent, we hope that >your sensitivity to what you described as his "attitudinal problem" >will help him overcome these character flaws. >Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere >cultural differences. He will bite you, given the chance. We >understand that you plan to offer counseling and home schooling. >Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand >combat and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a >pencil or nail clippers. We do not suggest that you ask him to >demonstrate these skills at your next yoga group. He is also expert >at making a wide variety of explosive devices from common household >products, so you may wish to keep those items locked up, unless (in >your opinion) this might offend him. >Ahmed will not wish to interact with your wife or daughters (except >sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property. >This is a particularly sensitive subject for him, and he has been >known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to comply >with the new dress code that Ahmed will recommend as more >appropriate attire. I'm sure they will come to enjoy the anonymity >offered by the bhurka - over time. Just remind them that it is all >part of "respecting his culture and his religious beliefs" - wasn't >that how you put it? >Thanks again for your letter. We truly appreciate it when folks like >you, who know so much, keep us informed of the proper way to do our >job. You take good care of Ahmed - and remember...we'll be watching. >Good luck! >Cordially...Your Buddy, >Don Rumsfeld > >Origins: We first encountered this bit of Internet lore in May >2002. Rest assured this was never a letter send out by anyone >representing the White House; it is instead one anonymous author's >idea of what the administration should be replying to those who >criticize the conditions under which Taliban detainees have been >housed at the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. The >Guantanamo Bay facility (abbreviated as GTMO, hence its "Gitmo" >nickname) has been decried as inhumane by a number of human rights >associations and been denounced at various times in the American >press. As we detail in our article about a Charlie Daniels essay on >the situation at Gitmo, the detainees were initially incarcerated at >Camp X-Ray, a temporary holding facility near Guantanamo Bay. >Inmates were kept in tin-roofed 8x8 cells that resembled dog runs: >chain link fencing on a concrete base, open on the sides to the >elements. They slept on foam pads placed on concrete floors in cells >containing chemical toilets or buckets. At least every two days >prisoners would be taken from their cells for all of 15 minutes of >exercise. Those being held have since been moved to nearby Camp >Delta, a permanent detention center erected for this purpose. The >8x6.66 cells have beds and walls and windows, flush toilets and >running water, but can still be described as austere. >Some are outraged by the apparent human rights violations at Gitmo. >Others view the method of foreign fighters' detainment at that >facility as a necessary evil if those being held are to be prevented >from inflicting harm on others. Members of yet another faction >regard the matter as one of severe punishment justly earned by >foreign fighters not entitled to the protections afforded under the >Geneva code to conventional, uniformed prisoners of war. >That divergence of opinion has led to members of the first and third >groups (and sometimes the second) regarding one another as >fool-headed in their assessments and hopelessly out of touch with >the core issues at stake. The Internet piece about the fictional >LARK program was penned from such a soapbox, its author expressing >through the vehicle of humor the opinion that those decrying the >condition of the prisoners would quickly change their tune if they >were the ones responsible for incarcerating Taliban and al Qaeda >detainees. >That line of thought was not original to the unknown author of the >Internet piece, as evidenced by this Jim Huber "Politically Correct" >cartoon published in January 2002. >The e-mail (which, by the way, is a well-crafted use of satire - it >is a playfully entertaining read that makes its point in >none-too-subtle fashion) has gone through a few revisions as it has >sped from inbox to inbox since its 2002 debut, most notably the >change of the signature line from "Cordially, George W. Bush" to >"Cordially...Your Buddy, Don Rumsfeld." This shift reflects current >societal perception of U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld as >the one responsible for tough treatment of captured foreign >fighters, a view that was somewhat subscribed to in 2002 but which >gained far wider acceptance in 2004 thanks to the Abu Ghraib prison >scandal in Iraq. >Other textual alterations include the elision of this segment of the >2002 version from the 2005 version: > >[Collected on the Internet, 2002] >Ahmed's meal requirements are simple, but we strongly suggest >serving meals that do not require utensils, particularly knives and >forks. Also, these should be "one-handed" foods; Ahmed will not eat >with his left hand since he uses it to wipe himself after purging >his bowels (which he will do in your yard) - but look on the bright >side.. no increase in the toilet paper bill. >He generally bathes quarterly with the change of seasons, assuming >that it rains, and he washes his clothes simultaneously. This should >help with your water bill. Also, your new friend has a really bad >case of body lice that hasn't been completely remedied. Please heed >the large orange notice attached to your detainee's cage: "Does not >play well with others." >Also, the section on how the fictional prisoner will get along with >women in the LARK recipient's household changed: > >[Collected on the Internet, 2005] >Ahmed will not wish to interact with your wife or daughters (except >sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property. >This is a particularly sensitive subject for him, and he has been >known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to comply >with the new dress code that Ahmed will recommend as more >appropriate attire. I'm sure they will come to enjoy the anonymity >offered by the bhurka - over time. Just remind them that it is all >part of "respecting his culture and his religious beliefs" - wasn't >that how you put it? >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >[Collected on the Internet, 2002] >Ahmed will not wish to interact with your wife or daughters (except >sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property. >However, he will be eager to assist with the education of your sons; >have available for their use several copies of the Q'uran. Oh - and >rest assured he absolutely loves animals, especially cats and dogs. >He prefers them roasted, but raw is fine, too, if they aren't more >than 2 or 3 days dead. >The closing was also altered: > >[Collected on the Internet, 2005] >Thanks again for your letter. We truly appreciate it when folks like >you, who know so much, keep us informed of the proper way to do our >job. You take good care of Ahmed - and remember...we'll be watching. >Good luck! >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >[Collected on the Internet, 2002] >Thanks again for your letter. We truly appreciate it when folks like >you, who know so much, keep us informed of the proper way to do our >job. We think this watching over each other's shoulder is such a >good way for people to interact that we will be sending a team of >federal officials with expertise in your line of work to your place >of business soon, just to help you do your job better. >Don't be concerned that they have the power to close your business, >seize your property, and arrest you for any violation of the >4,850,206 laws, codes, regulations and rules that apply to your >profession. They're really there just to make sure you're doing >everything the proper way. That is what you wanted, right? >Well, thank you for this opportunity to interact with such a valued >member of the citizenry. You take good care of Ahmed - and >remember...we'll be watching. >The later cropping of the original closing paragraphs removes a key >element from the piece, that of its writer's indignation over >Gitmo's decriers' insistence that a team of observers not allied >with or controlled by the U.S. military be tasked with supervising >the conditions under which prisoners are housed at that facility. >Barbara "victimized by a blue pencil pusher" Mikkelson >Last updated: 15 February 2005 >The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/lark.asp > > > 1. Sharon Olds says NO Bush Invitation (Gabriel Gudding) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 01:12:09 -0500 >From: Gabriel Gudding >Subject: [New-Poetry] Sharon Olds says NO Bush Invitation >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > , New Poetry >Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050921010908.028f9a58 at mail.ilstu.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >[I edited out some of the letter, which can be found on the Common Dreams >website - Gabe] : http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0920-29.htm > > >Published on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 by The >Nation (October 10, 2005 Issue) >No Place for a Poet at a Banquet of Shame >by Sharon Olds > > >For reasons spelled out below, the poet Sharon Olds has declined to attend >the National Book Festival in Washington, which, coincidentally or not, >takes place September 24, the day of an antiwar mobilization in the >capital. Olds, winner of a National Book Critics Circle Award and professor >of creative writing at New York University, was invited along with a number >of other writers by First Lady Laura Bush to read from their works. Three >years ago artist Jules Feiffer declined to attend the festival's White >House breakfast as a protest against the Iraq War ("Mr. Feiffer Regrets," >November 11, 2002). We suggest that invitees to this year's event consider >following their example. >--The Editors > >Laura Bush >First Lady >The White House > >Dear Mrs. Bush, > >I am writing to let you know why I am not able to accept your kind >invitation to give a presentation at the National Book Festival on >September 24, or to attend your dinner at the Library of Congress or the >breakfast at the White House. > >In one way, it's a very appealing invitation. The idea of speaking at a >festival attended by 85,000 people is inspiring! The possibility of finding >new readers is exciting for a poet in personal terms, and in terms of the >desire that poetry serve its constituents--all of us who need the pleasure, >and the inner and outer news, it delivers. > >[....] > >I tried to see my way clear to attend the festival in order to bear >witness--as an American who loves her country and its principles and its >writing--against this undeclared and devastating war. > >But I could not face the idea of breaking bread with you. I knew that if I >sat down to eat with you, it would feel to me as if I were condoning what I >see to be the wild, highhanded actions of the Bush Administration. > >What kept coming to the fore of my mind was that I would be taking food >from the hand of the First Lady who represents the Administration that >unleashed this war and that wills its continuation, even to the extent of >permitting "extraordinary rendition": flying people to other countries >where they will be tortured for us. > >So many Americans who had felt pride in our country now feel anguish and >shame, for the current regime of blood, wounds and fire. I thought of the >clean linens at your table, the shining knives and the flames of the >candles, and I could not stomach it. > >Sincerely, > >Sharon Olds > >? 2005 The Nation -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Sep 21 21:05:59 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:05:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/21/05 3:22 PM, ELEMENOPE Productions at elemenope at icubed.com wrote: Careful readers will note that neither Professor Gudding nor the "Porno Poetess" have ever taken responsibility for the attack on the Christian children by the Klintoon firebombers at Waco, Texas ----------------------------- I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to have that sorted out at last. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From tad at opus40.org Wed Sep 21 21:46:28 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:46:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid References: Message-ID: <000901c5bf17$7724ca60$1b54a118@MoleHQ> I didn't know about Sharon, but everyone knows it was Gabe's fault. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 9:05 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid > on 9/21/05 3:22 PM, ELEMENOPE Productions at elemenope at icubed.com wrote: > > Careful readers will note that neither Professor Gudding nor the "Porno > Poetess" have ever taken responsibility for the attack on the Christian > children by the Klintoon firebombers at Waco, Texas > ----------------------------- > > I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe > Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to > have that sorted out at last. > > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 21 22:49:10 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 03:49:10 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iceman References: <003401c5bd10$1272b180$7ea93452@ANNY> Message-ID: <003301c5bf20$36bbe770$6becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Anny I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert on the Iceman myself, but to presume that an arrowhead lodged in Mr Iceman's back resulted in his death by murder, as Keillor's snapshot does to effect, opens certain questions: a) was the wound fatal? He might have been weakened by it and died some time after from other causes. b) was the wound recent? The arrowhead might be a lodged remnant of a previous incident which had nothing to do with the fatality. What was the size of the arrowhead, where exactly in the back was it? etc. It might just be the barb of a quite superficial wound, there's plenty of protective tissue for the vital organs on the back, or was it in his spine, which could have crippled? c) of course, was the wound intentional? It might have been an accident. To that question, in the circumstances, I'd guess we can never know, unless in some all-revealing hereafter. d) was the presence of the barb in the back not possibly the result of material from the Iceman's own arrows being dislodged over the centuries of glacial grinding and lodged in the remains of his back? I'm not a forensic scientist and don't assume close knowledge of the documentation already available, but Keilor's ending statement is, without more detailed support, rhetoric for effect. He might be right, but without more said ..... Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iceman By Garrison Keillor on today's Almanac, what he says is all true but I did not know the end of the story. Surprising is what I can learn from _the States_ even in this case, the town that after various meetings and arguments hosts the Iceman is Bolzano-Bozen where I live. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It was on this day in 1991 that a body was found frozen in a glacier in the Alps between Austria and Italy. A German tourist found the body and called the Austrian police. They tried to free the body from the ice with a jackhammer. It was only when an anthropologist showed up to examine the body that they realized it was a very, very old corpse-5,300 years old, in fact-of a man between 25 and 35 years old. He was five feet, two inches tall, with hair about three inches long. He had tattoos. He wore an unlined fur robe, a woven grass cape, and size six shoes stuffed with grass for warmth. He came to be called the Iceman, and what made him such a remarkable discovery for anthropologists was the fact that he died while he was out walking on an ordinary day wearing ordinary clothing. He carried a copper axe and a fur quiver for his arrows, the only quiver from the Neolithic period that has ever been found. His arrows had sharp flint points and feathers that were affixed at an angle that would cause the arrows to spin. And he carried mushrooms in his bag that scientists speculate were used for medicine. It was not until ten years later that a forensics expert noticed in an x-ray that the Iceman had an arrowhead lodged in his back. He had been murdered. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Sep 22 06:51:43 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 06:51:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid References: Message-ID: <002b01c5bf63$9f3fc030$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe > Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to > have that sorted out at last. You have to be a careful thinker, too. Richard was using leftwing logic on Gudding and Olds: they voted for Clinton, so were responsible for the Waco massacre. --Bob G. From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Sep 22 07:42:00 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:42:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid Message-ID: <1d4.44d60762.3063f288@aol.com> In a message dated 9/21/2005 9:03:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to have that sorted out at last. Just one more thing the damn liberal media kept from us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Thu Sep 22 09:52:14 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 9:52:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] eratio postmodern poetry issue six, fall 2005 is online Message-ID: <200509221352.j8MDqTP5016353@mail27.atl.registeredsite.com> please share this announcement with others 9 ERATIO POSTMODERN POETRY ISSUE SIX, FALL 2005 . eratio postmodern poetry issue six, fall 2005 http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com * poetic language * Jack Foley Nicholas Manning Dan Masterson Salvatore Quasimodo, Tr. Anny Ballardini Jorge Lucio de Campos Todd Swift Hugh Tribbey Eileen Tabios Ashok Niyogi Dustin Hellberg Amy J. Grier Lorcan Ryan-Black Graham Nunn Phil Cordelli & Brandon Shimoda Mark Young Sandy Florian Marcia Arrieta Emily Waples Erin McElroy Jane Adam Crag Hill Jeffrey Side C. L. Bledsoe Timothy David Orme Jos? Alejandro Pe?a Thomas Lowe Taylor Al Swanson David Chikhladze PR Primeau * eidetics * Vadim Bystritski * the eratio broadside * Keith Tuma & jUStin!katKO Jo Cook Aryan Kaganof Catherine H. * bookshelf * Jake Berry reads Hank Lazer * the eratio gallery * Jeff Crouch Jukka-Pekka Kervinen M?rton Kopp?ny . edited by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino . eratio appears for spring and fall and is always reading please read the guidelines before sending: http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/contact.html * visit the eratio blog-auxiliary for updates * http://eratio.blogspot.com . eratio postmodern poetry issue six, fall 2005 http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com . "The noise of them that sing I do hear." 9 From rog3r.day at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 10:09:38 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:09:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <1d4.44d60762.3063f288@aol.com> References: <1d4.44d60762.3063f288@aol.com> Message-ID: Glad someone's playing the blame-game. So hard to get accountability these days. Roger. On 9/22/05, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 9/21/2005 9:03:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe > Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to > have that sorted out at last. > > > > > Just one more thing the damn liberal media kept from us. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Sep 22 10:46:54 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:46:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <002b01c5bf63$9f3fc030$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: On 9/22/05 5:51 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: >> I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe >> Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to >> have that sorted out at last. > > You have to be a careful thinker, too. Richard was using leftwing logic on > Gudding and Olds: they voted for Clinton, so were responsible for the Waco > massacre. > > --Bob G. Wow. Now we have "careful thinking" nicely exemplified. It just gets better and better. But perhaps inserting a poem into this remarkably silly discussion wouldn't hurt? Here's the Porno-Poetess herself. Don't know why people put up with this obscene trash, myself. . . . The Summer-Camp Bus Pulls Away from the Curb Whatever he needs, he has or doesn't have by now. Whatever the world is going to do to him it has started to do. With a pencil and two Hardy Boys and a peanut butter sandwich and grapes he is on his way, there is nothing more we can do for him. Whatever is stored in his heart, he can use, now. Whatever he has laid up in his mind he can call on. What he does not have he can lack. The bus gets smaller and smaller, as one folds a flag at the end of a ceremony, onto itself, and onto itself, until only a heavy wedge remains. Whatever his exuberant soul can do for him, it is doing right now. Whatever his arrogance can do it is doing to him. Everything that's been done to him, he will now do. Everything that's been placed in him will come out, now, the contents of a trunk unpacked and lined up on a bunk in the underpine light. -- by Sharon Olds from Blood, Tin, Straw (Alfred A. Knopf), 1999. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 11:10:17 2005 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:10:17 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: References: <002b01c5bf63$9f3fc030$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <648208b605092208104691025e@mail.gmail.com> And rightly labeled, David. "With a pencil and two Hardy Boys . . . . . . on a bunk in the underpine light. . . . " Oh, the horror! Next, she'll have those Hardy boys marrying each other. - Jim On 9/22/05, David Graham wrote: > > > > Wow. Now we have "careful thinking" nicely exemplified. It just gets > better and better. > > But perhaps inserting a poem into this remarkably silly discussion wouldn't > hurt? > > Here's the Porno-Poetess herself. Don't know why people put up with this > obscene trash, myself. . . . > > > The Summer-Camp Bus Pulls Away from the Curb > > Whatever he needs, he has or doesn't > have by now. > Whatever the world is going to do to him > it has started to do. With a pencil and two > Hardy Boys and a peanut butter sandwich and > grapes he is on his way, there is nothing > more we can do for him. Whatever is > stored in his heart, he can use, now. > Whatever he has laid up in his mind > he can call on. What he does not have > he can lack. The bus gets smaller and smaller, as one > folds a flag at the end of a ceremony, > onto itself, and onto itself, until > only a heavy wedge remains. > Whatever his exuberant soul > can do for him, it is doing right now. > Whatever his arrogance can do > it is doing to him. Everything > that's been done to him, he will now do. > Everything that's been placed in him > will come out, now, the contents of a trunk > unpacked and lined up on a bunk in the underpine light. > > -- by Sharon Olds from Blood, Tin, Straw (Alfred A. Knopf), 1999. > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Homepages: http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/ http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org From snakecharmer at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 11:41:00 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:41:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <648208b605092208104691025e@mail.gmail.com> References: <002b01c5bf63$9f3fc030$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <648208b605092208104691025e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33abf275050922084171d7a530@mail.gmail.com> Yes, but we all know that summer camp is riddled with all them homosexuals just waiting to prey on eager young minds. He'll come back one of those filthy queers--or horror of horrors, a socialist! And don't even get me started on the Boy Scouts... -donna On 9/22/05, James Cervantes wrote: > > And rightly labeled, David. "With a pencil and two Hardy Boys . . . . > . . on a bunk in the underpine light. . . . " Oh, the horror! Next, > she'll have those Hardy boys marrying each other. > > - Jim > > On 9/22/05, David Graham wrote: > > > > > > > > Wow. Now we have "careful thinking" nicely exemplified. It just gets > > better and better. > > > > But perhaps inserting a poem into this remarkably silly discussion > wouldn't > > hurt? > > > > Here's the Porno-Poetess herself. Don't know why people put up with this > > obscene trash, myself. . . . > > > > > > The Summer-Camp Bus Pulls Away from the Curb > > > > Whatever he needs, he has or doesn't > > have by now. > > Whatever the world is going to do to him > > it has started to do. With a pencil and two > > Hardy Boys and a peanut butter sandwich and > > grapes he is on his way, there is nothing > > more we can do for him. Whatever is > > stored in his heart, he can use, now. > > Whatever he has laid up in his mind > > he can call on. What he does not have > > he can lack. The bus gets smaller and smaller, as one > > folds a flag at the end of a ceremony, > > onto itself, and onto itself, until > > only a heavy wedge remains. > > Whatever his exuberant soul > > can do for him, it is doing right now. > > Whatever his arrogance can do > > it is doing to him. Everything > > that's been done to him, he will now do. > > Everything that's been placed in him > > will come out, now, the contents of a trunk > > unpacked and lined up on a bunk in the underpine light. > > > > -- by Sharon Olds from Blood, Tin, Straw (Alfred A. Knopf), 1999. > > > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Homepages: http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/ > http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Sep 22 04:41:48 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 03:41:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/21/05 8:05 PM, "David Graham" wrote: > I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe > Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to > have that sorted out at last. Are you sure that wasn't Sharon Olds in the flak jacket on the roof outside the Koresh compound? I saw the news footage and I'm pretty sure it was Olds moonlighting as an FBI agent. It's incredible what that woman will do for subject matter. From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Thu Sep 22 12:34:02 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:34:02 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <33abf275050922084171d7a530@mail.gmail.com> References: <002b01c5bf63$9f3fc030$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <648208b605092208104691025e@mail.gmail.com> <33abf275050922084171d7a530@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1127406842.4332dcfa6388b@webmail.sfsu.edu> Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good poet. Maxine Chernoff Quoting Donna Casinghino : > Yes, but we all know that summer camp is riddled with all them homosexuals > just waiting to prey on eager young minds. He'll come back one of those > filthy queers--or horror of horrors, a socialist! > And don't even get me started on the Boy Scouts... > > -donna > > On 9/22/05, James Cervantes wrote: > > > > And rightly labeled, David. "With a pencil and two Hardy Boys . . . . > > . . on a bunk in the underpine light. . . . " Oh, the horror! Next, > > she'll have those Hardy boys marrying each other. > > > > - Jim > > > > On 9/22/05, David Graham wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow. Now we have "careful thinking" nicely exemplified. It just gets > > > better and better. > > > > > > But perhaps inserting a poem into this remarkably silly discussion > > wouldn't > > > hurt? > > > > > > Here's the Porno-Poetess herself. Don't know why people put up with this > > > obscene trash, myself. . . . > > > > > > > > > The Summer-Camp Bus Pulls Away from the Curb > > > > > > Whatever he needs, he has or doesn't > > > have by now. > > > Whatever the world is going to do to him > > > it has started to do. With a pencil and two > > > Hardy Boys and a peanut butter sandwich and > > > grapes he is on his way, there is nothing > > > more we can do for him. Whatever is > > > stored in his heart, he can use, now. > > > Whatever he has laid up in his mind > > > he can call on. What he does not have > > > he can lack. The bus gets smaller and smaller, as one > > > folds a flag at the end of a ceremony, > > > onto itself, and onto itself, until > > > only a heavy wedge remains. > > > Whatever his exuberant soul > > > can do for him, it is doing right now. > > > Whatever his arrogance can do > > > it is doing to him. Everything > > > that's been done to him, he will now do. > > > Everything that's been placed in him > > > will come out, now, the contents of a trunk > > > unpacked and lined up on a bunk in the underpine light. > > > > > > -- by Sharon Olds from Blood, Tin, Straw (Alfred A. Knopf), 1999. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > David Graham > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > Poetry Library: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Homepages: http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/ > > http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v > From pmetres at jcu.edu Thu Sep 22 12:49:06 2005 From: pmetres at jcu.edu (Philip Metres) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Why don't Formalism and Dissent Rhyme? Message-ID: <20050922124906.BFP60987@mirapoint.jcu.edu> Nude Farmerism ( for gg and all the other lefty frags who are riuning this cuntry ) Sharon Olds is so wrong. She doesn't have schlong. She never was good at rhyme, she can't let our bush have his good ol' boy time, pissing on his parade, forgetting how poets hush and what they cherish. We poets must now recall the burning of Koresh, the other sins of Bill, the dimocrats, and Osama. (But everyone knows why Osama rhymes with my mama.) Peace out, motherlovers. Here's a peom that rims, so it mist bouy a peom, right fokes? Philip Metres Assistant Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 (216) 397-4528 (work) http://www.philipmetres.com From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 22 12:49:41 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:49:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <1127406842.4332dcfa6388b@webmail.sfsu.edu> References: <002b01c5bf63$9f3fc030$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <648208b605092208104691025e@mail.gmail.com> <33abf275050922084171d7a530@mail.gmail.com> <1127406842.4332dcfa6388b@webmail.sfsu.edu> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050922113830.02ae65d0@mail.ilstu.edu> Well said, Maxine! I'd hate to have the politics of Pound, say, but I like most of the dude's Cantos. And get a load of Eliot, who said that he would not mind people calling him, "A monarchist or a bigot." He said, he wore both terms proudly. I don't much think of Eliot as a good poet, but lotta people do I guess. At 11:34 AM 9/22/2005, maxpaul at sfsu.edu wrote: >Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good poet. >Maxine Chernoff From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Sep 22 13:13:16 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:13:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <1127406842.4332dcfa6388b@webmail.sfsu.edu> Message-ID: On 9/22/05 11:34 AM, "maxpaul at sfsu.edu" wrote: > Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good poet. > Maxine Chernoff Yes indeed. Or a bad poet. "Stuck on stupid," seems to me, is a nice shorthand for this very discussion. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 22 13:14:01 2005 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:14:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <1127406842.4332dcfa6388b@webmail.sfsu.edu> References: <002b01c5bf63$9f3fc030$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <648208b605092208104691025e@mail.gmail.com> <33abf275050922084171d7a530@mail.gmail.com> <1127406842.4332dcfa6388b@webmail.sfsu.edu> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050922120631.032903a0@mail.ilstu.edu> At 11:34 AM 9/22/2005, you wrote: >Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good poet. >Maxine Chernoff Right, but it doesn't make her a bad poet either (which would seem to be the implication of Richard's Dillon's post, calling her a pornographer). I think it's easy to mistake her transgressiveness (which I enjoy) for progressive politics or for a dangerous challenge to a necessary order. I think it is neither. What would we say, for instance about this one? Progressive? Pornographic? Or what? The Pope's Penis It hangs deep in his robes, a delicate clapper at the center of a bell. It moves when he moves, a ghostly fish in a halo of silver seaweed, the hair swaying in the dark and the heat--and at night, while his eyes sleep, it stands up in praise of God. From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Thu Sep 22 13:59:01 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:59:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050922120631.032903a0@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <002b01c5bf63$9f3fc030$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <648208b605092208104691025e@mail.gmail.com> <33abf275050922084171d7a530@mail.gmail.com> <1127406842.4332dcfa6388b@webmail.sfsu.edu> <6.0.2.0.2.20050922120631.032903a0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <1127411941.4332f0e5d89ad@webmail.sfsu.edu> Hilarious on the one hand but banal on the other and maybe childish like thinking at the age of 12 about our parents having sex or bullying teachers or political leaders shitting. Maxine Quoting Bill Morgan : > At 11:34 AM 9/22/2005, you wrote: > >Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good poet. > >Maxine Chernoff > Right, but it doesn't make her a bad poet either (which would seem > to be the implication of Richard's Dillon's post, calling her a > pornographer). I think it's easy to mistake her transgressiveness (which I > enjoy) for progressive politics or for a dangerous challenge to a necessary > order. I think it is neither. What would we say, for instance about this > one? Progressive? Pornographic? Or what? > > The Pope's Penis > > It hangs deep in his robes, a delicate > clapper at the center of a bell. > It moves when he moves, a ghostly fish in a > halo of silver seaweed, the hair > swaying in the dark and the heat--and at night, > while his eyes sleep, it stands up > in praise of God. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From daisyf1 at juno.com Thu Sep 22 14:14:36 2005 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (daisyf1 at juno.com) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:14:36 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Stuck on Stupid Message-ID: <20050922.111441.24684.542718@webmail29.lax.untd.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 22 14:27:12 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:27:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Stuck on Stupid Message-ID: <1f9.12bf2964.30645180@aol.com> In a message dated 9/22/2005 2:16:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, daisyf1 at juno.com writes: But very human. Not something you can say about all that many poems. I'm glad there's a place for childish (if childish is the right word) hilarity in poetry. Sophistication is so damn boring sometimes. Cheers, Daisy Fried Hilarious on the one hand but banal on the other and maybe childish like thinking at the age of 12 about our parents having sex or bullying teachers or political leaders shitting. Maxine Olds has a true gift for the image/simile. It's been a while since I've read that poem, but it's also the insidious nature of the patriarchial Church that informs my reading of the poem. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 22 15:29:10 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:29:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid Message-ID: <1a8.3f9132d6.30646006@aol.com> In a message dated 9/21/2005 4:23:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, elemenope at icubed.com writes: Careful readers will also note On a very rough-and-ready basis we might define an eccentric as a man who is a law unto himself, and a crank as one who, having determined what the law is, insists on laying it down to others. An eccentric puts ice cream on steak simply because he likes it; should a crank do so, he would endow the act with moral grandeur and straightaway denounce as sinners (or reactionaries) all who failed to follow suit. --Louis Kronenberger. 1954. ?The One and the Many,? Company -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 16:03:09 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:03:09 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: References: <002b01c5bf63$9f3fc030$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Looking at the BuffPo archives, Richard Dillon's email fits that of his previous form in attacking prominent female poets. This would appear to be the thing that he likes to do. For an instance, I thought that RD was one of that man's alter egos. Maybe that was just my paranoia. Like the Olds BTW. Roger On 9/22/05, David Graham wrote: > > > > On 9/22/05 5:51 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: > > >> I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe > >> Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to > >> have that sorted out at last. > > > > You have to be a careful thinker, too. Richard was using leftwing logic > on > > Gudding and Olds: they voted for Clinton, so were responsible for the > Waco > > massacre. > > > > --Bob G. > > Wow. Now we have "careful thinking" nicely exemplified. It just gets > better and better. > > But perhaps inserting a poem into this remarkably silly discussion wouldn't > hurt? > > Here's the Porno-Poetess herself. Don't know why people put up with this > obscene trash, myself. . . . > > > The Summer-Camp Bus Pulls Away from the Curb > > Whatever he needs, he has or doesn't > have by now. > Whatever the world is going to do to him > it has started to do. With a pencil and two > Hardy Boys and a peanut butter sandwich and > grapes he is on his way, there is nothing > more we can do for him. Whatever is > stored in his heart, he can use, now. > Whatever he has laid up in his mind > he can call on. What he does not have > he can lack. The bus gets smaller and smaller, as one > folds a flag at the end of a ceremony, > onto itself, and onto itself, until > only a heavy wedge remains. > Whatever his exuberant soul > can do for him, it is doing right now. > Whatever his arrogance can do > it is doing to him. Everything > that's been done to him, he will now do. > Everything that's been placed in him > will come out, now, the contents of a trunk > unpacked and lined up on a bunk in the underpine light. > > -- by Sharon Olds from Blood, Tin, Straw (Alfred A. Knopf), 1999. > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Sep 22 16:49:35 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:49:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuck On Stupid References: Message-ID: <009c01c5bfb7$2461d980$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good >> poet. >> Maxine Chernoff Nor does one's having political views one agrees with make them necessarily advanced views. --Bob G. From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Thu Sep 22 16:54:59 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:54:59 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <009c01c5bfb7$2461d980$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <009c01c5bfb7$2461d980$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1127422499.43331a233779f@webmail.sfsu.edu> Very true. MC Quoting Bob Grumman : > >> Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good > >> poet. > >> Maxine Chernoff > > Nor does one's having political views one agrees with make them necessarily > advanced views. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From rog3r.day at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 17:27:13 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:27:13 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] Stuck On Stupid In-Reply-To: <8c.2fdbebf2.30647446@aol.com> References: <8c.2fdbebf2.30647446@aol.com> Message-ID: No, really. This is too good just for me alone. It must be shared with the list. Particularly as I have no idea about what the hell you're talking about. Bon appetit Roger ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: AlMaginnes at aol.com Date: Sep 22, 2005 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stuck On Stupid To: rog3r.day at gmail.com You can play innocent if you want, but I know what it means when a pencil shows up in a poem. Especially if it's near a peanut butter sandwich. In a message dated 9/22/2005 4:03:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rog3r.day at gmail.com writes: X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE Looking at the BuffPo archives, Richard Dillon's email fits that of his previous form in attacking prominent female poets. This would appear to be the thing that he likes to do. For an instance, I thought that RD was one of that man's alter egos. Maybe that was just my paranoia. Like the Olds BTW. Roger On 9/22/05, David Graham wrote: > > > > On 9/22/05 5:51 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: > > >> I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe > >> Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to > >> have that sorted out at last. > > > > You have to be a careful thinker, too. Richard was using leftwing logic > on > > Gudding and Olds: they voted for Clinton, so were responsible for the > Waco > > massacre. > > > > --Bob G. > > Wow. Now we have "careful thinking" nicely exemplified. It just gets > better and better. > > But perhaps inserting a poem into this remarkably silly discussion wouldn't > hurt? > > Here's the Porno-Poetess herself. Don't know why people put up with this > obscene trash, myself. . . . > > > The Summer-Camp Bus Pulls Away from the Curb > > Whatever he needs, he has or doesn't > have by now. > Whatever the world is going to do to him > it has started to do. With a pencil and two > Hardy Boys and a peanut butter sandwich and > grapes he is on his way, there is nothing > more we can do for him. Whatever is > stored in his heart, he can use, now. > Whatever he has laid up in his mind > he can call on. What he does not have > he can lack. The bus gets smaller and smaller, as one > folds a flag at the end of a ceremony, > onto itself, and onto itself, until > only a heavy wedge remains. > Whatever his exuberant soul > can do for him, it is doing right now. > Whatever his arrogance can do > it is doing to him. Everything > that's been done to him, he will now do. > Everything that's been placed in him > will come out, now, the contents of a trunk > unpacked and lined up on a bunk in the underpine light. > > -- by Sharon Olds from Blood, Tin, Straw (Alfred A. Knopf), 1999. > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ From tad at opus40.org Thu Sep 22 19:51:13 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:51:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuck On Stupid References: Message-ID: <002901c5bfd0$87413eb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Stuck On StupidDavid - stop inflicting that porno on us, or I'll tell everyone about you and the Jonestown massacre. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetrey Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:46 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuck On Stupid On 9/22/05 5:51 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: >> I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe >> Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to >> have that sorted out at last. > > You have to be a careful thinker, too. Richard was using leftwing logic on > Gudding and Olds: they voted for Clinton, so were responsible for the Waco > massacre. > > --Bob G. Wow. Now we have "careful thinking" nicely exemplified. It just gets better and better. But perhaps inserting a poem into this remarkably silly discussion wouldn't hurt? Here's the Porno-Poetess herself. Don't know why people put up with this obscene trash, myself. . . . The Summer-Camp Bus Pulls Away from the Curb Whatever he needs, he has or doesn't have by now. Whatever the world is going to do to him it has started to do. With a pencil and two Hardy Boys and a peanut butter sandwich and grapes he is on his way, there is nothing more we can do for him. Whatever is stored in his heart, he can use, now. Whatever he has laid up in his mind he can call on. What he does not have he can lack. The bus gets smaller and smaller, as one folds a flag at the end of a ceremony, onto itself, and onto itself, until only a heavy wedge remains. Whatever his exuberant soul can do for him, it is doing right now. Whatever his arrogance can do it is doing to him. Everything that's been done to him, he will now do. Everything that's been placed in him will come out, now, the contents of a trunk unpacked and lined up on a bunk in the underpine light. -- by Sharon Olds from Blood, Tin, Straw (Alfred A. Knopf), 1999. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 22 21:13:02 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:13:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Tributes to Jordan & Merwin Message-ID: Dear Friend, Please join us for--and help spread the word about--two extraordinary tributes that will take place in early October: A Tribute to the Work of June Jordan Thursday, October 6, 7:30 pm With special guests Adrienne Rich, Yusef Komunyakaa, Cornelius Eady, Laura Flanders, Bob Holman, Joy Harjo, and others; emcees are Jan Heller Levi and Sara Miles, the editors of June Jordan?s new collected poems, Directed by Desire. Hunter College, New York City The Kaye Playhouse 695 Park Avenue (68th Street, between Park and Lexington Avenues) Admission is $12 ($7 for Poetry Society of America members and students) Tickets available at The Kaye Playhouse Box Office: 212-772-4448 * * * A Tribute to W. S. Merwin Monday, October 10, 8:00 pm With special guests Lucille Clifton, Edward Hirsch, Naomi Shihab Nye, Gerald Stern and W. S. Merwin 92nd Street Y, New York City Kaufmann Concert Hall (Lexington Avenue at 92nd Street) General admission $17 Tickets available through the 92nd Street Y: www.92y.org or 212-415-5500 * * * Information about new books from W. S. Merwin and June Jordan is included below. We encourage you to forward this email to those who may be interested. Sincerely, Copper Canyon Press www.coppercanyonpress.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Fri Sep 23 02:50:39 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:50:39 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid (Paul Lake) In-Reply-To: <200509221600.j8MG03M3004212@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200509221600.j8MG03M3004212@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Paul Lake. No. NO! Not you, too! ------------------------------------- R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 03:41:48 -0500 >From: Paul Lake >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Sharon Olds: Stuck On Stupid >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >On 9/21/05 8:05 PM, "David Graham" wrote: > >> I'm a pretty careful reader, and I admit that I wasn't aware that Gabe >> Gudding and Sharon Olds *were* responsible for the Waco fiasco. Nice to >> have that sorted out at last. > >Are you sure that wasn't Sharon Olds in the flak jacket on the roof outside >the Koresh compound? I saw the news footage and I'm pretty sure it was Olds >moonlighting as an FBI agent. It's incredible what that woman will do for >subject matter. > > -- From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Sep 23 10:39:25 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:39:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds again Message-ID: THE CHUTE When I was a kid, my father built a hole down through the center of the house. It started in the upstairs closet, a black, square mouth like a well with a lid on it, it plummeted down behind the kitchen wall, and the raw pine cloaca tip of it was down in the basement where the twisted wicker basket lay on the cement floor, so when someone dropped in laundry at the top, it would drop with the speed of sheer falling?in the kitchen you?d hear that whisk of pure descent behind the wall. And halfway down there was an electric fixture for the doorbell?that bell my father would ring and ring years later when he stood at the door with that blood on him, like a newborn?s caul, ringing ringing to enter. But back then he was only halfway down, a wad of sheets stuck in the chute, he could still fix the doorbell when it busted. He?d stand his kids in front of him, three skinny scared braggart kids, and run his gaze over them, a surgeon running his eyes over the tray, and he?d select a kid, and take that kid by the lip of it and then lower you in, the smell of pine and dirty laundry, his grip on your ankles like the steel he sold, he?d lower you until your whole body was in it and you?d find the little wires, red and blue, like a vein and a nerve, and you?d tape them together. We thought it was such an honor to be chosen, and like all honors it was mostly terror, not only the blood in your head like a sac of worms in wet soil, but how could you believe he would not let go? He would joke about it, standing there, holding his kid like a bottle brush inside a bottle, or the way they drown people, he?d lower us down as if dipping us into the darkness before birth and he?d pretend to let go?he loved to hear passionate screaming in a narrow space? how could you trust him? And then if you were his, half him, your left hand maybe and your left foot dipped into the gleaming murky liquor of his nature, how could you trust yourself? What would it feel like to be on the side of life? How did the good know they were good, could they look at their hand and see, under the skin, the greenish light? We hung there in the dark and yet, you know, he never dropped us or meant to, he only liked to say he would, so although it?s a story with some cruelty in it, finally it?s a story of love and release, the way the father pulls you out of nothing and stands there foolishly grinning. --Sharon Olds ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Fri Sep 23 10:42:42 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:42:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Graves In-Reply-To: <003e01c5ba0d$294c88f0$46de8a56@Robin> References: <003e01c5ba0d$294c88f0$46de8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <1127486563.17405.38.camel@malatesta> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 16:50 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > To bring the dead to life is no great magic. > Few are wholly dead > Blow on a dead man's embers > And a live flame will start. This is a lovely motto. What's it from? -- Uche From uche at ogbuji.net Fri Sep 23 10:58:01 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:58:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0509161042603f107c@mail.gmail.com> References: <006701c5bad0$895cee60$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> <00fd01c5bad8$1a53f7e0$402bb750@ANNY> <00ce01c5bade$f80dd7d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> <731bb17a0509161042603f107c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1127487481.17405.45.camel@malatesta> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 13:42 -0400, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Is it "Stackolee?' Good Lord. My old man used to sit around the > house, strumming that tune on his six-string, and singing (what I > thought was) "Stagger Lee." I don't think that I knew it was actually > "Stackolee" until this very moment. The folk hero Stagger Lee goes by many variations of that name, depending on where you are. Some people froth at the mouth insisting that it should be "Stacker Lee" because the many fantastic stories were supposedly about a real character who worked as a stock stacker, but "Stagger Lee" is pretty much the standard orthography as the name makes it's way from street shanties to academically preserved ballads. So your memory does not deceive you, especially if your old man was educated ;-) BTW, there are many Stagger Lee stories and rhymes, and I think that they are the best and least appreciated of the American bardic tradition. Even better than John Henry, Paul Bunyan and that other, older lot. He's a bad, bad man, that Stagger Lee. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Sep 23 11:50:05 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:50:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Graves References: <003e01c5ba0d$294c88f0$46de8a56@Robin> <1127486563.17405.38.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <013801c5c056$78dc2160$05608b56@Robin> > On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 16:50 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > To bring the dead to life is no great magic. > > Few are wholly dead > > Blow on a dead man's embers > > And a live flame will start. > > This is a lovely motto. What's it from? > > -- > Uche Robert Graves, +Complete Poems+ II, p. 96. I think Graves wrote this as a para-poem when he was writing the Claudius novels -- it dates from the late thirties. But it's also the most lethally accurate of any mojo poem I've ever come across -- *don't* try this at home. I tried it, copying the sigla that Sir Thomas Wyatt wrote on the margins of the Egerton MS. Christ, *not* a place to go. :-( Robin TO BRING THE DEAD TO LIFE To bring the dead to life Is no great magic. Few are wholly dead: Blow on a dead man's embers And a live flame will start. Let his forgotten griefs be now, And now his withered hopes; Subdue your pen to his handwriting Until it prove as natural To sign his name as yours. Limp as he limped, Swear by the oaths he swore; If he wore black, affect the same; If he had gouty fingers, Be yours gouty too. Assemble tokens intimate of him - A seal, a cloak, a pen: Around these elements then build A home familiar to The greedy revenant. So grant him life, but reckon That the grave which housed him May not be empty now: You in his spotted garments Shall yourself lie wrapped. From cgi77 at aol.com Fri Sep 23 11:58:31 2005 From: cgi77 at aol.com (cgi77 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:58:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Graves In-Reply-To: <013801c5c056$78dc2160$05608b56@Robin> References: <003e01c5ba0d$294c88f0$46de8a56@Robin> <1127486563.17405.38.camel@malatesta> <013801c5c056$78dc2160$05608b56@Robin> Message-ID: <8C78E6EC7672FCA-1698-AB2D@MBLK-M06.sysops.aol.com> Thanks for posting that Robin. "Christ, *not* a place to go." ..but an inevitable journey for all of us. -Peter -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton Sent: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:50:05 +0100 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Graves X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE > On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 16:50 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > To bring the dead to life is no great magic. > > Few are wholly dead > > Blow on a dead man's embers > > And a live flame will start. > > This is a lovely motto. What's it from? > > -- > Uche Robert Graves, +Complete Poems+ II, p. 96. I think Graves wrote this as a para-poem when he was writing the Claudius novels -- it dates from the late thirties. But it's also the most lethally accurate of any mojo poem I've ever come across -- *don't* try this at home. I tried it, copying the sigla that Sir Thomas Wyatt wrote on the margins of the Egerton MS. Christ, *not* a place to go. :-( Robin TO BRING THE DEAD TO LIFE To bring the dead to life Is no great magic. Few are wholly dead: Blow on a dead man's embers And a live flame will start. Let his forgotten griefs be now, And now his withered hopes; Subdue your pen to his handwriting Until it prove as natural To sign his name as yours. Limp as he limped, Swear by the oaths he swore; If he wore black, affect the same; If he had gouty fingers, Be yours gouty too. Assemble tokens intimate of him - A seal, a cloak, a pen: Around these elements then build A home familiar to The greedy revenant. So grant him life, but reckon That the grave which housed him May not be empty now: You in his spotted garments Shall yourself lie wrapped. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From William_Knott at emerson.edu Fri Sep 23 12:21:15 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:21:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] advanced Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B73@mail.emerson.edu> Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good poet. Maxine Chernoff * Because someone has advanced poetical views doesn't make them a good poet. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2277 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Sep 23 12:54:26 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:54:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King Message-ID: <200509231530.j8NFUC90380140@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Jeff---thanks for this appreciation... C ---------- From: Jeff Newberry To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King Date: Fri, Sep 16, 2005, 12:48 PM Chris, That's a great song. It's called "How Blue Can You Get?" I don't know if BB wrote it or if the song is an old blue standard. The Allman Brothers do a pretty good cover of it, methinks. I played in blues bands for a good part of my late teens and early 20s--well, I sat in with a lot of bands. I never could get one together that stayed together. I've been a blues fan my whole life, and it all probably stems from my dad singing "Stackolee." Anywho, here're the lyrics: How Blue Can You Get B.B. King I've been down hearted baby, ever since the day we met; I've been down hearted baby ever since the day we met: our love is nothing but the blues-- baby, how blue can you get? My love is like a fire; your love is like a cigarette. My love is like a fire; but baby yours is like a cigarette. I watched you step down on it baby and crush it! Tell me how, tell me how how blue can you get? You're evil when i'm with you and you are jealous when we're apart. You're evil, you're so evil when I'm with you baby and you are jealous when we're apart: how blue can you get baby? The answer is right here in my heart I gave you a brand new Ford and you said "I want a Cadillac." I bought you a ten dollar dinner and you said "thanks for the snack!" I let you live in my penthouse you said it was just a shack! I gave you seven children and now you wanna to give 'em back! Yes I've been downhearted baby ever since the day we met: our love is nothing but the blues baby baby, how blue can you get? Chis > wrote: very cool---would love to hear it--- Also, someone asked about the spelling--- aren't there many variations on this spelling of mr. Stack? Well, one of my fav BB King lyrics (don't think he wrote em) is that song he does as a medly--based on juxtapositions-- the first one, sweet little angle, has "i asked her for a little drink.....she gave me a whiskey still" and then later, (i'm paraphasing from vague memory) "i took you to my mansion.....you called it shack bought you dinner........you said thanks for the snack" etc.... no time to look em up right now, but if you know you know! C ---------- From: "The Old Mole" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King Date: Fri, Sep 16, 2005, 8:51 AM One of mine: STACKOLEE AND THE DEVIL Stackolee went down to hell Lookin' mighty furious Devil said, "Where you come from, boy?" He told him, "East St. Louis." Stackolee said to the Devil, "Put your pitchfork on the shelf, I'm the bad man they call Stackolee Gonna rule Hell by myself." The Devil sent a woman With a stomach made of rain Stackolee sucked her bones clean dry And sent her back again, Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil is gonna win Stackolee took the Devil And he tied him to a rail Set fire ants to eat his horns And a goat to eat his tail Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil is gonna fail Devil sent another woman Her eyes were made of coal Stackolee sent her back again They were red as a jelly roll Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil gonna take his toll Stackolee took the Devil And he chained him to the air Put hornets all around his private parts And maggots in his hair Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil, he don't care The Devil sent his daughter Took old Stackolee by the arm Walked him into the fiery pit, Stack says, "It's getting' warm" Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil gonna work a charm Stackolee took off his gloves And loosened up his vest The Devil's daughter went and laid Her head against his chest Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Oh, he's doin' what he do best The devil's daughter took old Stack's hand And she placed it on her heart Fire so hot it fused them hard So they'd never come apart Oh, the Devil Oh, the Devil Come on and see the Devil's art Tad Richards www.opus40.org < http://www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King Most beautiful, it brought me back to my Newowleeens. ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Happy Birthday, B.B. King The Weary Blues Langston Hughes Droning a drowsy syncopated tune, Rocking back and forth to a mellow croon, I heard a Negro play. Down on Lenox Avenue the other night By the pale dull pallor of an old gas light He did a lazy sway . . . He did a lazy sway . . . To the tune o' those Weary Blues. With his ebony hands on each ivory key He made that poor piano moan with melody. O Blues! Swaying to and fro on his rickety stool He played that sad raggy tune like a musical fool. Sweet Blues! Coming from a black man's soul. O Blues! In a deep song voice with a melancholy tone I heard that Negro sing, that old piano moan-- "Ain't got nobody in all this world, Ain't got nobody but ma self. I's gwine to quit ma frownin' And put ma troubles on the shelf." Thump, thump, thump, went his foot on the floor. He played a few chords then he sang some more-- "I got the Weary Blues And I can't be satisfied. Got the Weary Blues And can't be satisfied-- I ain't happy no mo' And I wish that I had died." And far into the night he crooned that tune. The stars went out and so did the moon. The singer stopped playing and went to bed While the Weary Blues echoed through his head. He slept like a rock or a man that's dead. Tad Richards www.opus40.org < http://www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Sep 23 13:44:59 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:44:59 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Corner in the Press Message-ID: <011901c5c066$84de3740$a5d93052@ANNY> Thanks to the brilliant idea of one of the best poets I know (won't say whom), I won't destroy your inmail box with an attachment to share this piece of news: http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ And I am happy that you do not speak Italian because there is some good praise for me. Even if I wrote the article, my friend the editor was able to open a bracket and so and such, cheers, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Sep 23 14:58:47 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:58:47 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iceman References: <003401c5bd10$1272b180$7ea93452@ANNY> <003301c5bf20$36bbe770$6becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <017601c5c070$d45445d0$a5d93052@ANNY> Hi David, every year when school begins I just lose the notion of time in the sense that I do not know where it goes. I needed five minutes to check the site of the South Tyrolean Museum to give you an answer. I am pasting below: Angelika Fleckinger ?tzi, the Iceman The Full Facts at a Glance 2003 120 pages, photos, 11,5 x 20 cm , ? 10,00, ISBN 3-85256-244-9 Old and exhausted, with an arrowhead lodged in his shoulder ? this is how the Iceman met his death 5,300 years ago. Since the discovery of the glacier mummy, a window has been opened on this unexplored, often misunderstood period of history: ?tzi expert Angelika Fleckinger summarises what experts from a variety of disciplines have painstakingly unearthed about ?tzi?s life and death in research lasting many years. Superbly detailed close-ups and impressive general views, including colour pictures of the Iceman?s equipment and clothing, bring to life one of the most sensational archaeological finds to date. Everything you wanted to know about the Iceman, in authoritative, compact and vivid descriptions. Garrison Keillor probably took the information from this book. Here is the link to the Museum: http://www.archaeologiemuseum.it/f01_ice_uk.html Anny From: David Bircumshaw Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:49 AM Anny I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert on the Iceman myself, but to presume that an arrowhead lodged in Mr Iceman's back resulted in his death by murder, as Keillor's snapshot does to effect, opens certain questions: a) was the wound fatal? He might have been weakened by it and died some time after from other causes. b) was the wound recent? The arrowhead might be a lodged remnant of a previous incident which had nothing to do with the fatality. What was the size of the arrowhead, where exactly in the back was it? etc. It might just be the barb of a quite superficial wound, there's plenty of protective tissue for the vital organs on the back, or was it in his spine, which could have crippled? c) of course, was the wound intentional? It might have been an accident. To that question, in the circumstances, I'd guess we can never know, unless in some all-revealing hereafter. d) was the presence of the barb in the back not possibly the result of material from the Iceman's own arrows being dislodged over the centuries of glacial grinding and lodged in the remains of his back? I'm not a forensic scientist and don't assume close knowledge of the documentation already available, but Keilor's ending statement is, without more detailed support, rhetoric for effect. He might be right, but without more said ..... Best Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Fri Sep 23 16:12:34 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:12:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] advanced In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B73@mail.emerson.edu> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B73@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <1127506354.433461b272e36@webmail.sfsu.edu> Thank you, Professor Knott. Maxine Quoting William Knott : > > > Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good poet. > Maxine Chernoff > > > * > Because someone has advanced poetical views doesn't make them a good poet. > > From William_Knott at emerson.edu Fri Sep 23 16:32:58 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:32:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] advanced views Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B78@mail.emerson.edu> a perhaps-prophetic poem by Tadeusz Rozewicz, trans. by Adam Czerniawski: AN ADDRESS Not to posterity that would be senseless they might all be monsters the high commission gives clear warning the powers military staffs that monsters will follow with no brains therefore not to posterity but to those who at this very moment multiply with their eyes shut not to posterity I address these words I speak to politicians who won't read me to bishops who won't read me to generals who won't read me I speak to the so-called 'ordinary people' who won't read me I shall speak to all who do not read me nor hear nor know nor need me They do not need me but I need them * ... it's not just "the high commission" that gives this warning about the possibility of a post-human future. Add the dystopian scifi novels and films. Add Ray Kurzweil and others. . . but the basic argument of the AvantGarde (or the Postlang or Post-Avant or whatever the fuck they're calling themselves this week), is predicated on their ultimate vindication by Posterity. . . you know the spiel: Yes the easy poets the accessible poets like Collins Olds and Levine are being read and honored now, but in the future they will be forgotten and we, we the PA's will be appreciated then: just as earlier avantgardistes who were ignored or scorned in their day (Van Gogh, Dickinson, Mallarme, et al) are now honored as the Greats, so we too will garner the fame we deserve, and we will have our posthumous revenge on these insipid popularists like Mary Oliver and all the other P-p-pinsky-striped SoQs. . . . . ..but what if Rozewicz is right? what if Ray Kurzweil is right and the species of homo sapiens is to be replaced by AI's, androids robots cyborgs etc.? will the latter read poetry? if you can download the text of every poem ever written into your braincom in 3.4 seconds, does that constitute "reading?" will they create their own kind of poetry (digital data and pictovids). . . or will the AG triumph once more as those endless clonedrones pore over the at-last-recognized genius of Bruce Andrews and the Howe sisters? (or might those Aye-Eyes prefer the work of Ai?) * Ps: In 2005, Bill Gates called Ray Kurzweil "the best at predicting the future of artificial intelligence." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3855 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Sep 23 16:47:54 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:47:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Corner in the Press References: <011901c5c066$84de3740$a5d93052@ANNY> Message-ID: <005701c5c080$14c8d4a0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Hey, I can read Italian -- insegnante bolzanina means an insouciant little chick with balls. Congratulations, Anny. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 1:44 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Corner in the Press Thanks to the brilliant idea of one of the best poets I know (won't say whom), I won't destroy your inmail box with an attachment to share this piece of news: http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ And I am happy that you do not speak Italian because there is some good praise for me. Even if I wrote the article, my friend the editor was able to open a bracket and so and such, cheers, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Fri Sep 23 16:55:45 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:55:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] AY-EYES, NOT AYE-EYES Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B79@mail.emerson.edu> re my previous post: aye and eye are the same phoneme, right? so AI should be ay-eye. . . and the poet Ai is ay-eye too? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2314 bytes Desc: not available URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Fri Sep 23 17:13:32 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:13:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] will the Ay-Eyes read Ay-Eye? Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7A@mail.emerson.edu> the humanist realism of Ai, or the endless gibberish of Clark Coolidge. . . I prefer the former, but I suspect an android might go for Clark . . . maybe the PAs are androids in advance, prescient clones. . . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2434 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Sep 23 17:29:11 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:29:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] advanced views References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B78@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <009e01c5c085$d735fc70$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I believe posterity will like my poetry more than it likes Olds's, true--but I also believe that the combined true IQ of those who NOW like my poetry is greater than the combined true IQ of those who like hers. (True IQ is what a valid test of intelligence would indicate, as opposed to what standard IQ tests indicate at present.) Note: I'm exaggerating, but not by all that much. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Sep 23 18:26:06 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:26:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] will the Ay-Eyes read Ay-Eye? References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7A@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <00b801c5c08d$cae0a990$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Knott speaks of: >the humanist realism of Ai, >or the endless gibberish of Clark Coolidge. . . Although some of it may be excessively hermetic, Coolidge's poetry is not gibberish. --Bob G. From William_Knott at emerson.edu Fri Sep 23 18:40:32 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:40:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 44 Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7C@mail.emerson.edu> At 11:34 AM 9/22/2005, maxpaul at sfsu.edu wrote: >Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good poet. >Maxine Chernoff * What makes Sharon Olds a great poet is not her "advanced political views," but her poetry. One would perhaps like to think that getting sneered at by failed poets is what makes Sharon Olds a great poet, but again, it's her poetry, not her envious inferiors, that make her a great poet. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2620 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Sep 23 18:56:14 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:56:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 44 References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7C@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <00d701c5c092$004e5920$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >What makes Sharon Olds a great poet is not her >"advanced political views," >but her poetry. >One would perhaps like to think that getting sneered at >by failed poets is >what makes Sharon Olds a great poet, >but again, it's her poetry, not her >envious inferiors, that >make her a great poet. But not as great a poet as Norman Rockwell was a painter, I presume. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Fri Sep 23 22:11:22 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:11:22 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7C@mail.emerson.edu> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7C@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <1127527882.4334b5cab9adc@webmail.sfsu.edu> Sharon Olds good, Clark Coolidge bad. Bill Knott reductionism. I think we all get it. Quoting William Knott : > At 11:34 AM 9/22/2005, maxpaul at sfsu.edu wrote: > >Because someone has advanced political views doesn't make her a good poet. > >Maxine Chernoff > > * > > What makes Sharon Olds a great poet is not her "advanced political views," > but her poetry. > > One would perhaps like to think that getting sneered at by failed poets is > what makes Sharon Olds a great poet, but again, it's her poetry, not her > envious inferiors, that make her a great poet. > > > > > > From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 24 05:31:34 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:31:34 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iceman References: <003401c5bd10$1272b180$7ea93452@ANNY><003301c5bf20$36bbe770$6becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <017601c5c070$d45445d0$a5d93052@ANNY> Message-ID: <008301c5c0ea$c1a196c0$59e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Thanks, Anny. I'll look into those and write further. All the Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Iceman Hi David, every year when school begins I just lose the notion of time in the sense that I do not know where it goes. I needed five minutes to check the site of the South Tyrolean Museum to give you an answer. I am pasting below: Angelika Fleckinger ?tzi, the Iceman The Full Facts at a Glance 2003 120 pages, photos, 11,5 x 20 cm , ? 10,00, ISBN 3-85256-244-9 Old and exhausted, with an arrowhead lodged in his shoulder ? this is how the Iceman met his death 5,300 years ago. Since the discovery of the glacier mummy, a window has been opened on this unexplored, often misunderstood period of history: ?tzi expert Angelika Fleckinger summarises what experts from a variety of disciplines have painstakingly unearthed about ?tzi?s life and death in research lasting many years. Superbly detailed close-ups and impressive general views, including colour pictures of the Iceman?s equipment and clothing, bring to life one of the most sensational archaeological finds to date. Everything you wanted to know about the Iceman, in authoritative, compact and vivid descriptions. Garrison Keillor probably took the information from this book. Here is the link to the Museum: http://www.archaeologiemuseum.it/f01_ice_uk.html Anny From: David Bircumshaw Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:49 AM Anny I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert on the Iceman myself, but to presume that an arrowhead lodged in Mr Iceman's back resulted in his death by murder, as Keillor's snapshot does to effect, opens certain questions: a) was the wound fatal? He might have been weakened by it and died some time after from other causes. b) was the wound recent? The arrowhead might be a lodged remnant of a previous incident which had nothing to do with the fatality. What was the size of the arrowhead, where exactly in the back was it? etc. It might just be the barb of a quite superficial wound, there's plenty of protective tissue for the vital organs on the back, or was it in his spine, which could have crippled? c) of course, was the wound intentional? It might have been an accident. To that question, in the circumstances, I'd guess we can never know, unless in some all-revealing hereafter. d) was the presence of the barb in the back not possibly the result of material from the Iceman's own arrows being dislodged over the centuries of glacial grinding and lodged in the remains of his back? I'm not a forensic scientist and don't assume close knowledge of the documentation already available, but Keilor's ending statement is, without more detailed support, rhetoric for effect. He might be right, but without more said ..... Best Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 24 06:01:13 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:01:13 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 44 References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7C@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <00bb01c5c0ee$e7584b80$59e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> >What makes Sharon Olds a great poet is not her "advanced political views," but her poetry. One would perhaps like to think that getting sneered at by failed poets is what makes Sharon Olds a great poet, but again, it's her poetry, not her envious inferiors, that make her a great poet.----- Original Message ----- From: "William Knott" To: Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 11:40 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 44< I must confess to elements of confusion on my part about the Sharon Olds debate. I don't actually know what her political views are, but if my reading of what they are sugested to be is right I imagine I might have some sympathy with them, although I'm wary that 'advanced' views that cause controversy in the USA might not tremble a tea-bag in England, despite the unfortunate tendencies over here. But my real confusion was about this 'great' poet Sharon Olds people were talking about. I knew of a very tedious narcissist whose work I'd seen for years in mags here and there and which I reckoned had a ground of appeal in the self-concern of the slightly well-heeled, somewhat in the way psycho-analysis took root in the US, was that the same Sharon Olds? Bloody hell, it was, is! GREAT poet, you have to be joking, start from the slight matter that the poems are a rhythmical shambles. Billy Collins at least has some good jokes, Olds is pure consumer-society me-me seasoned with neuroses and a soupcon of unlove. Best Dave From William_Knott at emerson.edu Sat Sep 24 10:28:33 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:28:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] olds Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7D@mail.emerson.edu> i would guess that a successful poet like Sharon Olds (or Carol Ann Duffy) pays no attention at all to the pathetic pack of failed poets that snaps and yaps at her heels. . . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2309 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 24 11:06:00 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:06:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] filipino po Message-ID: http://news.inq7.net/sunday/index.php?index=1&story_id=49878 Joseph Rosmon M. Tuason >From Comic Book Dreams to Poetry Prizes First posted 08:16am (Mla time) Sept 11, 2005 Inquirer News Service Editor's Note: Published on page Q2 of the September 11, 2005 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer ?MY big dream really was to become a mainstream superhero comic illustrator,? says Joseph Rosmon M. Tuazon, this year?s first prize winner in poetry in Filipino, who just turned 23. ?Never had the slightest hunch I?d write poems.? Who knows, Filipino poetry?s loss could have been Marvel Comics? gain. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 24 11:48:48 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:48:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view Message-ID: In a message dated 9/24/2005 6:00:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com writes: But my real confusion was about this 'great' poet Sharon Olds people were talking about. I knew of a very tedious narcissist whose work I'd seen for years in mags here and there and which I reckoned had a ground of appeal in the self-concern of the slightly well-heeled, somewhat in the way psycho-analysis took root in the US, was that the same Sharon Olds? Bloody hell, it was, is! GREAT poet, you have to be joking, start from the slight matter that the poems are a rhythmical shambles. Billy Collins at least has some good jokes, Olds is pure consumer-society me-me seasoned with neuroses and a soupcon of unlove. David, I'm sure many would agree with you...but I don't entirely. I understand this view of Olds' work, but I see it as where Confessionalism had do to go from Plath-Lowell: Less literary and more visceral. Less poetry and more prose. I also think the spilling guts of subject matter sometimes obscures the ways that Olds is seeing emotional circumstances and human interaction in new ways. At least, new for poetry (if not psychology). And, as I said earlier, one of her true gifts is for metaphor/simile. It's interesting to me that her poetry is no less umkempt (dare I say no sloppier) than much of that of the New York School poets (first/second/tertiary generations) yet because her subject matter veers more to the severely emotional and less toward jokey insouciance, she's often criticized as being not poetic enough by certain camps. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Sat Sep 24 13:14:18 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 13:14:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 46 Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B80@mail.emerson.edu> David, I'm sure many would agree with you...but I don't entirely. I understand this view of Olds' work, but I see it as where Confessionalism had do to go from Plath-Lowell: Less literary and more visceral. Less poetry and more prose. I also think the spilling guts of subject matter sometimes obscures the ways that Olds is seeing emotional circumstances and human interaction in new ways. At least, new for poetry (if not psychology). And, as I said earlier, one of her true gifts is for metaphor/simile. It's interesting to me that her poetry is no less umkempt (dare I say no sloppier) than much of that of the New York School poets (first/second/tertiary generations) yet because her subject matter veers more to the severely emotional and less toward jokey insouciance, she's often criticized as being not poetic enough by certain camps. Finnegan * .... I agree with you, Finnegan. Your comments are astute.. . Olds has many gifts and strengths. . . But of course her popularity, the fact that in the lists of poetry books hers are perennial bestsellers (look at how many times they've been reprinted), makes her a target for jealous inferiors whose books can barely sell through a first printing. . . As for technique, Olds is better than many give her credit for. Prosey yes, but as she herself pointed out in an interview some years ago, her rhythms are accentual, and many of her lines are written in a four-stress measure. . . try reading her aloud with an emphasis on the strong stresses in each line. . . I certainly envy her craft skills, and as I said, I think she's a great poet. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Sat Sep 24 13:29:38 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:29:38 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] olds In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7D@mail.emerson.edu> References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7D@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <1127582978.43358d023fd10@webmail.sfsu.edu> Tedious narcissism and family-member bashing for poetic material indeed take a lot of time. Olds will have to take care of the "pathetic yap[pers" later. (Don't know the work of Duffy.) MC Quoting William Knott : > i would guess that a successful poet like > Sharon Olds (or Carol Ann Duffy) pays no > attention at all to the pathetic pack of failed > poets that snaps and yaps at her heels. . . > > From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 24 13:37:27 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:37:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/24/05 10:48 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: David, I'm sure many would agree with you...but I don't entirely. I understand this view of Olds' work, but I see it as where Confessionalism had do to go from Plath-Lowell: Less literary and more visceral. Less poetry and more prose. I also think the spilling guts of subject matter sometimes obscures the ways that Olds is seeing emotional circumstances and human interaction in new ways. At least, new for poetry (if not psychology). And, as I said earlier, one of her true gifts is for metaphor/simile. It's interesting to me that her poetry is no less umkempt (dare I say no sloppier) than much of that of the New York School poets (first/second/tertiary generations) yet because her subject matter veers more to the severely emotional and less toward jokey insouciance, she's often criticized as being not poetic enough by certain camps. Finnegan _______________________________________________ I don't love all of Olds's poems by a long shot (I don't love all of Yeats, either), and I think she has some gaping flaws as a poet (so do Yeats and Whitman). True, she can have a relatively restricted thematic range and, yes, a pretty prosy sense of rhythm, but so what? I agree with Jim Finnegan. She's no one to be sneered at. She's broken some interesting ground, has been highly influential, and is often brilliant metaphorically. Least of all, I would say, should we charge her with "narcisssism." For one thing, I find little more narcissistic than the sort of word-salad (Barry Spacks's phrase) that often issues from the experimental camps. Whatever her success rate, Old's aim is quite obviously not to navel-gaze but to use the personal as a window on the universal. In other words, it's the ancient lyric mission, really. For another thing, the charge of narcissism often seems uncomfortably close to blaming Olds not for her frankness nor for her alleged self-absorption but for her subject matter--as if presuming to write a poem about one's sexual experience or alcoholic father were by definition a more limiting option than writing, say, about blueberries, a snake in the grass, Three Mile Island, or a statue in the park. Obviously one can write in foolish or self-absorbed ways about any subject (spare me yet another preening poem of smug political rage these days), just as one can write about sexual longing ("westron wynde," e.g.) in the most open-hearted manner. One more thing. In doing the research for Kate Sontag's and my essay anthology *After Confession*, I came to believe that there's another issue lurking. I think that there's often an unacknowledged gender spin to the charge of narcissism, which was made about Sexton before Olds came along, and indeed about Millay and other women poets who challenged the proprieties or the period style. Finnegan's point about Olds vs. the New York school is astute, I'd say. Many find Frank O'Hara's breezy self-consciousness charming and look past his prosy rhythms, while not approaching Olds with the same generosity. Furthermore, a male poet who reveals or seems to reveal intimacies is often considered honest or gutsy, while Olds is not given the same slack. Or so it appears to me. If anyone's interested, there's lots more on this topic, both pro-Olds and con-, in our anthology. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 24 13:42:47 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 13:42:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view Message-ID: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com> In a message dated 9/24/2005 1:35:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: One more thing. In doing the research for Kate Sontag's and my essay anthology *After Confession*, I came to believe that there's another issue lurking. I think that there's often an unacknowledged gender spin to the charge of narcissism, which was made about Sexton before Olds came along, and indeed about Millay and other women poets who challenged the proprieties or the period style. Let's not forget Rukeyser, too. I'm sure more than a few of her poems made male readers squirm. I'm almost sure that was why Randall Jarrell had a blindspot when it came to her poetry. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 24 13:54:28 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 13:54:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: Message-ID: <004201c5c131$03140890$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> But my real confusion was about this 'great' poet Sharon Olds people were talking about. I knew of a very tedious narcissist whose work I'd seen for years in mags here and there and which I reckoned had a ground of appeal in the self-concern of the slightly well-heeled, somewhat in the way psycho-analysis took root in the US, was that the same Sharon Olds? Bloody hell, it was, is! GREAT poet, you have to be joking, start from the slight matter that the poems are a rhythmical shambles. Billy Collins at least has some good jokes, Olds is pure consumer-society me-me seasoned with neuroses and a soupcon of unlove. David, I'm sure many would agree with you...but I don't entirely. I understand this view of Olds' work, but I see it as where Confessionalism had do to go from Plath-Lowell: Less literary and more visceral. Less poetry and more prose. I also think the spilling guts of subject matter sometimes obscures the ways that Olds is seeing emotional circumstances and human interaction in new ways. At least, new for poetry (if not psychology). And, as I said earlier, one of her true gifts is for metaphor/simile. It's interesting to me that her poetry is no less umkempt (dare I say no sloppier) than much of that of the New York School poets (first/second/tertiary generations) yet because her subject matter veers more to the severely emotional and less toward jokey insouciance, she's often criticized as being not poetic enough by certain camps. Finnegan Perhaps another reason for the unpopularity of Olds's poetry among some is the way those who defend her assume than envy can be the only reason for under-valuing her, and for characterinzing those who prefer poetry that can't be fully understood--both intellectually and emotionally--on one reading (or less) are "failed poets." --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 24 14:07:25 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:07:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: Message-ID: <006401c5c132$d1b8ec50$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Olds view". . . Sexton before Olds came along" Right, David. So how is Olds "influential?" That is, how can any poet who is repeating earlier poets without adding anything significant to what they did be said to be influential? Incidentally, I don't really think Olds a poor poet, just not a great one. But I tend to get carried away when responding to people like Knott. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 24 14:26:34 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 13:26:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view In-Reply-To: <006401c5c132$d1b8ec50$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 9/24/05 1:07 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: Right, David. So how is Olds "influential?" That is, how can any poet who is repeating earlier poets without adding anything significant to what they did be said to be influential? -------------------- Circular reasoning here, I fear. You've already defined Olds (and every mainstream voice) as merely "repeating earlier poets"; and you've made it clear that anyone who doesn't innovate in certain prescribed *technical* ways cannot be "adding anything" to the world of poetry, so our dispute is over before it begins. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 24 15:35:17 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:35:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: Message-ID: <007e01c5c13f$18654e80$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Olds viewI knew you couldn't defend your position, David. I was surprised you even bothered to respond to my post. I am saying Sexton and/or Plath was influential in making available to the poets following them certain "confessional" subject matter--and, yes, it'd be feminine/feminist subject matter. I am saying that Olds has not done anything significant that they did not, so cannot be said to have been influential. This is certainly not circular reasoning. I still could be wrong. To show that I am, you need to specify what Olds has done that Sexton and Plath did not do. I think that O'Hara was influential for a kind of style, the conversational style, and also subject matter. He was, I feel, influenced by the jump-cut technical innovations of Eliot and Pound, but used it differently enough to seem to me to be significantly innovative. Stevens wasn't technically innovative, but seems to me to have been innovative in subject matter and point of view. Actually, in his way of combining surrealism, with his fairly idiosyncratic subject matter and thinking. Bukowski was innovative in taking Williams into the gutter, so to speak. Maybe Olds did the same with Sexton--I don't know the work of either poet well enough to say. Of course, almost no mainstream poet is likely to be innovative. Mainstream euqals accepted, and accepted equals familiar (and therefore not innovative). --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Sep 24 16:26:41 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:26:41 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grace Cavalieri Message-ID: <00e501c5c146$4613c760$e5eb3652@ANNY> Just received by Philip Nikolayev: A N N O U N C I N G ! GRACE CAVALIERI has won The 2005 Bordighera Poetry Prize of $2000 Sponsored by the Sonia Raiziss-Giop Foundation including bilingual book publication by Bordighera Press for her manuscript: WATER ON THE SUN $1000 of the prize will be used to commission a translator of her English manuscript into Italian. On November 17th, Thursday Evening at 7PM there will be an Awards Ceremony, Reading and Reception as well as a reunion of all Bordighera Winners, Runners-Up, and Translators including Carolyn Guinzio, last year's winner for West Pullman at POET'S HOUSE 72 Spring St. 2nd Fl. between B'dway and Lafayette, Lower Manhattan, Soho Area. All are invited to attend free of admission. Please save the date. Distinguished Poet Judge 2005-2006: Daniela Gioseffi Co-Founder of The Bordighera Poetry Prize: Alfredo de Palchi Editor/Publisher of Bordighera Press: Anthony J. Tamburri Grace Cavalieri is the author of fourteen books and chapbooks of poetry; her most recent book, What I Would Do For Love, (Jacaranda Press, 2004) is in the voice of 18th century author Mary Wollstonecraft. Her play about Mary Wollstonecraft ("Hyena In Petticoats") is in development in New York. Her latest children' book is Little Line. She has had 20 plays on American stages. Her current drama, "Quilting the Sun," recently enjoyed a reading by its NYC cast at the Smithsonian Institution. She has written texts and lyrics for opera authoring two productions, "String of Pearls," and "Migrations." Grace has written three radio dramas, which received national broadcast. Grace has produced and hosted "The Poet and the Poem" on public radio, celebrating its 29th year in 2006; she records the series from the Library of Congress, broadcasting via NPR satellite. She is the book review editor for themontserratreview.com, and reviews theater in her column, "America's Stage." Awards include the Pen-Fiction Story Award, the Allen Ginsberg Poetry Award, The Witter Bynner Foundation for Poetry, The Corporation for Public Broadcasting Silver Medal, The National Commission on Working Women, and The American Association of University Women. She received the inaugural Columbia Award from the Folger Shakespeare Library for "significant contribution to poetry." Grace is married to the sculptor Kenneth Flynn and they have four daughters and four grandchildren. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 24 18:21:31 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:21:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view Message-ID: <1c0.31c207a3.30672b6b@aol.com> In a message dated 9/24/2005 1:55:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: Perhaps another reason for the unpopularity of Olds's poetry among some is the way those who defend her assume than envy can be the only reason for under-valuing her, and for characterinzing those who prefer poetry that can't be fully understood--both intellectually and emotionally--on one reading (or less) are "failed poets." Bob, I don't share Bill Knott's view on Olds-bashing. Her poetry seems to provoke strong feelings...which I actually consider to be a sign of its strength. But, please, bash, thrash and trash away. William Logan and Adam Kirsch, to name just two, have ripped into her poetry. (Of course, in Logan's case, it's a short list of poets that he hasn't a distaste for.) I do prefer elaboration over snipes, however. In another post you said to David Graham that you don't know much about her work. If that's the case, I'd prefer silence to snipes. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 24 20:20:32 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:20:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: <1c0.31c207a3.30672b6b@aol.com> Message-ID: <010c01c5c166$f1d2dbc0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In another post you said to David Graham that you don't know much about her work. If that's the case, I'd prefer silence to snipes. Finnegan Well, James, with all due respect, I'd prefer that you not misrepresent me. What I said to David was, "Bukowski was innovative in taking Williams into the gutter, so to speak. Maybe Olds did the same with Sexton--I don't know the work of either poet well enough to say." There is a difference, I would say a substantial difference, between knowing a poet's work well enough to evaluate it (informally, in a group like New-Poetry, I might add) and knowing it well enough to be able to trace influences. I notice a lot of snipes about poets (like those in the "post-avant") by New-Poetry participants who know a great deal leass about the poets their snipes are direct at than I do about Olds. But I wasn't considering saying more about her. I was hoping a discussion on how we determine whether or not a poet is influential might get under way, implicitly starting one by suggesting it was not passing on a previous poet's influence. I also mentioned some poets I thought were influenctial and why I thought them so, if very superficially. No takers, though. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Sep 24 23:46:45 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 04:46:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com> Message-ID: <00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin> Reminds me of the time Penelope Shuttle aced the Gregory in the early seventies. Before the interviews, Penelope was going on and *on* about how she had no chance as boys didn't like girls writing poems about mensturation. At great tedious length. Afterward, and this wasn't supposed to be done, the first thing we all did natch was compare numbers on the cheques. The boys all had the standard 500, but Penelope's cheque had 2000 written on it. Sometimes the good win. Not that I think Penelope was a particularly good poet, and it was for once a tough year for the Gregory. Frank Ormsby was there, and Martin Booth. Bloody thing was formally supposed to be chaired by Philip Larkin, but sod that for a joke. The minute I sat down down, there was Howard Sergeant sitting in the middle and smiling. The heavy money with the Gregory went to the Young Novelists. The year I got Gregoried, the poison dwarf (Martin Amis) won the novel prize. You could tell the poets from the awarders as none of the poets could afford a tie. Afterwards, we all (the poets that is -- the cast party was strictly London, and no poet other Penelope got invited) ajourned to the nearest pub and started trying to work out who could come up with the most extreme obscene joke to describe the fiasco. Except Martin Booth, who was a bit quiet as only three months before he'd been on trial accused of murdering his step-mother. All so long ago. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Olds view In a message dated 9/24/2005 1:35:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: One more thing. In doing the research for Kate Sontag's and my essay anthology *After Confession*, I came to believe that there's another issue lurking. I think that there's often an unacknowledged gender spin to the charge of narcissism, which was made about Sexton before Olds came along, and indeed about Millay and other women poets who challenged the proprieties or the period style. Let's not forget Rukeyser, too. I'm sure more than a few of her poems made male readers squirm. I'm almost sure that was why Randall Jarrell had a blindspot when it came to her poetry. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Sep 25 02:02:13 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 07:02:13 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why ... References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com> <00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin> Message-ID: <011101c5c196$ae79cc00$af9d8b56@Robin> ... Gregory Award Winning poets are usually either 28 or 29 years old. There was an interesting spin on the Gregory money, that it was restricted to anyone *under* thirty. So naturally everyone waited till the last moment. Really, it was difficult *not* to collect a Gregory. Difficult, but not impossible. When it came to sucker prizes, I think the ultimate was the Final Year Essay Prize at Glasgow University, officially known as the Bradley Medal but unofficially as the Poet's Consolation. Glasgow didn't just specialise in kiss&kill, they had it down to a fine art. The first problem with the Bradley was working out where the bloody thing was taking place. Also, no one had seemed to have bothered to tell the Hill that New Criticism was severely yesterday's black. You turned up and were faced with a slip of paper that could say anything -- mine was, "Discuss the concept of murder in literature". That was par for the course. What wasn't par was that when I sat the Bradley, the invigilator was Hannah Buchan who'd taught my mother in the forties and had much later been my second year tutor. The look Hannah gave me when I left the Bradley an hour early (two hours into a three hour exam) would have made hell freeze over. So anyway, that's all pretty much everyone's university experience. But the suits up the Hill began to get quite annoyed about how no one treated the Bradley seriously and they came up with a really phenomemonal spin -- they published the name of the person who came *second* in the Bradley. You could apologise for winning the Bradley, and if you didn't win, who knew? ... but to not-quite win the Bradley? OUCH!!! Robin Liz Atkinson, the Blonde Bombshell, later said, "Shame about your Bradley, Robin -- you'd have won anyway." (Actually, to my surprise, even Hannah Buchan said the same.) I'm not sure this was true -- leave aside that two thirds of my year didn't know where the bloody exam was taking place, writing an exam an half of which was based on an analysis of +Crime and Punishment+ which I hadn't then read really wasn't desperately clever. But you know the crowning insult? They actually managed to spell my name wrong on the back of the cheap lump of bronx that is all I have to show. Phooey. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kazmandu at aol.com Sun Sep 25 03:15:59 2005 From: Kazmandu at aol.com (Kazmandu at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 03:15:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re Olds Message-ID: <1c7.31a509dc.3067a8af@aol.com> In a message dated 9/24/2005 9:09:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes: Message: 1 Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:28:33 -0400 From: "William Knott" Subject: [New-Poetry] olds To: Message-ID: i would guess that a successful poet like Sharon Olds (or Carol Ann Duffy) pays no attention at all to the pathetic pack of failed poets that snaps and yaps at her heels. . . Amen! Kaz Maslanka -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Sun Sep 25 03:47:26 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:47:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view In-Reply-To: <00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin> References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com> <00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin> Message-ID: Gregory? On 9/25/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Reminds me of the time Penelope Shuttle aced the Gregory in the early > seventies. > > Before the interviews, Penelope was going on and *on* about how she had no > chance as boys didn't like girls writing poems about mensturation. At great > tedious length. > > Afterward, and this wasn't supposed to be done, the first thing we all did > natch was compare numbers on the cheques. > > The boys all had the standard 500, but Penelope's cheque had 2000 written on > it. > > Sometimes the good win. > > Not that I think Penelope was a particularly good poet, and it was for once > a tough year for the Gregory. Frank Ormsby was there, and Martin Booth. > > Bloody thing was formally supposed to be chaired by Philip Larkin, but sod > that for a joke. > > The minute I sat down down, there was Howard Sergeant sitting in the middle > and smiling. > > The heavy money with the Gregory went to the Young Novelists. > > The year I got Gregoried, the poison dwarf (Martin Amis) won the novel > prize. > > You could tell the poets from the awarders as none of the poets could afford > a tie. > > Afterwards, we all (the poets that is -- the cast party was strictly London, > and no poet other Penelope got invited) ajourned to the nearest pub and > started trying to work out who could come up with the most extreme obscene > joke to describe the fiasco. > > Except Martin Booth, who was a bit quiet as only three months before he'd > been on trial accused of murdering his step-mother. > > All so long ago. > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: JforJames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 6:42 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Olds view > > > > In a message dated 9/24/2005 1:35:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > One more thing. In doing the research for Kate Sontag's and my essay > anthology *After Confession*, I came to believe that there's another issue > lurking. I think that there's often an unacknowledged gender spin to the > charge of narcissism, which was made about Sexton before Olds came along, > and indeed about Millay and other women poets who challenged the proprieties > or the period style. > Let's not forget Rukeyser, too. I'm sure more than a few > of her poems made male readers squirm. I'm almost sure > that was why Randall Jarrell had a blindspot when it came to > her poetry. > Finnegan > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 25 04:17:29 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:17:29 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] olds References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B7D@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <001a01c5c1a9$92d762b0$31e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> >----- Original Message ----- From: "William Knott" To: Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:28 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] olds i would guess that a successful poet like Sharon Olds (or Carol Ann Duffy) pays no attention at all to the pathetic pack of failed poets that snaps and yaps at her heels. . .< I didn't even realise she was so successful in the States. But sales as a standard .... well, I believe that John Betjeman's verse autobiography Summoned by Bells sold in excess of two million copies in the UK, making it the most successful volume of poetry to be issued here post 1945. There, too, used to be a writer nom de Patience Strong, who wrote verses of consolation and fortitude which sold extraordinarily well. It would be tedious to continue. I might, though, observe that hackneyed rhetrorical characterisations do not constitute an argument. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 25 06:51:33 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:51:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: Message-ID: <001701c5c1bf$18966170$18edff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> I can see, Jim, a certain line of descent from the confessional school in Olds' poems. They do though, seem to be smothered rhythmically by their inclination to the prosaic (by contrast, the NY poets seem to be redeemed by their skill with tempo) On squirmitude, btw, Rukeyser's poems don't bother me in that respect (for that matter, Olds' subject matter doesn't either, but it seems that in Olds the point of interest is Olds herself, Rukeyser seems to have a wider ambit) Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view In a message dated 9/24/2005 6:00:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com writes: But my real confusion was about this 'great' poet Sharon Olds people were talking about. I knew of a very tedious narcissist whose work I'd seen for years in mags here and there and which I reckoned had a ground of appeal in the self-concern of the slightly well-heeled, somewhat in the way psycho-analysis took root in the US, was that the same Sharon Olds? Bloody hell, it was, is! GREAT poet, you have to be joking, start from the slight matter that the poems are a rhythmical shambles. Billy Collins at least has some good jokes, Olds is pure consumer-society me-me seasoned with neuroses and a soupcon of unlove. David, I'm sure many would agree with you...but I don't entirely. I understand this view of Olds' work, but I see it as where Confessionalism had do to go from Plath-Lowell: Less literary and more visceral. Less poetry and more prose. I also think the spilling guts of subject matter sometimes obscures the ways that Olds is seeing emotional circumstances and human interaction in new ways. At least, new for poetry (if not psychology). And, as I said earlier, one of her true gifts is for metaphor/simile. It's interesting to me that her poetry is no less umkempt (dare I say no sloppier) than much of that of the New York School poets (first/second/tertiary generations) yet because her subject matter veers more to the severely emotional and less toward jokey insouciance, she's often criticized as being not poetic enough by certain camps. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Sep 25 07:10:18 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:10:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com><00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin> Message-ID: <017301c5c1c1$b7449060$af9d8b56@Robin> From: "Roger Day" > Gregory? The Eric Gregory Awards. Eric Gregory was a Sheffield businessman who set up a trust fund to give prizes to aspiring writers under the age of thirty. I may be wrong that it was impossible for anyone not to collect on this as David Bircumshaw didn't. When I got mine in the seventies, the standard prize was ?500, which translated to six months' living. Or it did if you fiddled it. Basically, you had to get fired to collect, and it was a top-up on social security. I didn't have that problem as I was working supply as a high school teacher at the time, so I simply didn't turn up for work the next day. But talk about dumb ... I drifted into the nearest social security office office to sign on, and the wee girl behind the desk said, "Do you write poems during the week or only at the weekends?" Huh? Look, you dumb shite, if you write poems during the week, you can't claim, so I'll ask you once more, "Do you write poems during the week or only at the weekend?" I might have been slow but I did get the point. Finally. "Oh, I only ever write poems on Saturday or Sunday." "Right," she said briskly, "sign here." Then she hissed under her breath, "Frankly, I think your poems suck, and when they make me Queen of the Universe you're first for the tumbril, so you better start practising your neck-verse now." Way it went. Robin The possibly interesting point about this was that in order to draw the dole, you couldn't be Voluntary Unemployed. When, later, I collected an ACGB award, I discovered just how difficult it was to leave the phones. Look, for all of me, my self-image was of absolutely the most incompetent phone operator ever, so it was a bit unnerving to be on the receiving end of a dialogue which started, "Stay for another month and we'll give you a desk," and ended, "Don't you WANT to run BT when you're fifty?" "No!" I howled, banging my head on the supervisor's desk, "I have to be fired otherwise I can't sign on the dole." "Oh, right" (eventually) "but how do I write it up?" To my astonishment, I realised that in six months I'd managed never to collect a yellow card and at Silver Street, which took some doing. "How about if I'm frightened out of my wits by being blown to buggery by an IRA bomb?" "Don't think that would run," said the supe sadly, "given that your drinking buddies are Provo." That really was totally unfair, given that in seventies London it was virtually impossible to drink in an Irish bar without couping glass for glass with Matt McGuinn. Eventually, we worked out that I could be fired on the grounds of Terminal Alcoholic Incompetance. When I worked the phones (things have changed, so the Birk informs me) they were radically union, with the best and the worst that that implies. Made it difficult to leave, but. Way it goes. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 25 08:19:30 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:19:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why ... References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com><00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin> <011101c5c196$ae79cc00$af9d8b56@Robin> Message-ID: <002601c5c1cb$61fe6130$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >managed to spell my name wrong on the back of the > >cheap lump of bronx that is all I have to show. I was about to report this cheap insult of America to James, Robin, but then I realized he'd approve of it. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amparker at davidson.edu Sun Sep 25 10:08:16 2005 From: amparker at davidson.edu (Parker, Alan Michael) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 10:08:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] olds Message-ID: Good talk on Olds. Thanks for helping my weekend. My concern here is not "greatness" or "goodness" or even "goodness gracious," but that Olds has a sensibility (inclination? philosophical blindspot?) that defaults to emotion. All drama then becomes merely a function of feeling--which seems to me a place her poem has usually begun, and not a writing process rife with discovery. Here's an example of what I mean, from a poem I like and from an Olds book I consider among her best. THE PULLING Every hour, now, he is changing, shedding some old ability. Knees up, body tin-colored, hair black and grey, thick with grease like ritual unguent, my father moves, hour by hour, head-first, toward death, I sense every inch of him moving through me toward it, the way each child moved, slowly, down through my body, as if I were God feeling the rivers pulling steadily through me, and the earth pressing through, the universe itself hauled through me heavily and easily, drawn through my body like a napkin through a ring-- as if my father could live and die safely inside me. - Sharon Olds, _The Father_ (6) The poem does well by its rhetoric--that long second sentence accretes powerfully--and refuses the easy banality of its spoken grief, to choose metaphor and meaning-making instead. The simile's flat-out stunning. As for loose tetrameter, I'm less convinced of its effectiveness (or usefulness) or even dominance, but that may well be another conversation. What bugs me: the megalomania that fuses the father and the Father into a kind of synecdoche, the ease with which the speaker knows all (another peeve about her work, her knowingness), and most of all, the need to give us the final two lines rather than let the pain and gorgeousness of the simile be all, enough. If the charge is one of narcissism, I might agree, upon reading this poem: the final two lines seem to me an advancing of the poet's emotions at the expense of the poem. Cheers. AMP Alan Michael Parker From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Sep 25 11:01:26 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:01:26 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] olds References: Message-ID: <00e101c5c1e2$0079d040$63a83852@ANNY> This is a beautiful poem, extremely moving. I find the two final lines a sacrifice to the strong emotional tide let loose, by cutting it that way she shuts her personal involvement and leads in an (astute?) way the reader to a kind of human assurance, almost in the way Leopardi did, you have the same exhausted feeling of knowing but of having to deal with higher values like the perpetuation of lies for the sake of continuity. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Parker, Alan Michael" To: Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:08 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] olds > > Good talk on Olds. Thanks for helping my weekend. > > My concern here is not "greatness" or "goodness" or even "goodness > gracious," but that Olds has a sensibility (inclination? philosophical > blindspot?) that defaults to emotion. All drama then becomes merely a > function of feeling--which seems to me a place her poem has usually begun, > and not a writing process rife with discovery. Here's an example of what I > mean, from a poem I like and from an Olds book I consider among her best. > > THE PULLING > > Every hour, now, he is changing, > shedding some old ability. > Knees up, body tin-colored, > hair black and grey, thick with > grease like ritual unguent, my father > moves, hour by hour, head-first, > toward death, I sense every inch of him moving > through me toward it, the way each child > moved, slowly, down through my body, > as if I were God feeling the rivers > pulling steadily through me, and the earth > pressing through, the universe > itself hauled through me heavily and easily, > drawn through my body like a napkin through a ring-- > as if my father could live and die > safely inside me. > > - Sharon Olds, _The Father_ (6) > > The poem does well by its rhetoric--that long second sentence accretes > powerfully--and refuses the easy banality of its spoken grief, to choose > metaphor and meaning-making instead. The simile's flat-out stunning. As > for loose tetrameter, I'm less convinced of its effectiveness (or > usefulness) or even dominance, but that may well be another conversation. > > What bugs me: the megalomania that fuses the father and the Father into a > kind of synecdoche, the ease with which the speaker knows all (another > peeve about her work, her knowingness), and most of all, the need to give > us the final two lines rather than let the pain and gorgeousness of the > simile be all, enough. If the charge is one of narcissism, I might agree, > upon reading this poem: the final two lines seem to me an advancing of the > poet's emotions at the expense of the poem. > > Cheers. > AMP > > Alan Michael Parker > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 25 11:16:27 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:16:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] olds References: Message-ID: <004f01c5c1e4$1a181fa0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > THE PULLING > > Every hour, now, he is changing, > shedding some old ability. > Knees up, body tin-colored, > hair black and grey, thick with > grease like ritual unguent, my father > moves, hour by hour, head-first, > toward death, I sense every inch of him moving > through me toward it, the way each child > moved, slowly, down through my body, > as if I were God feeling the rivers > pulling steadily through me, and the earth > pressing through, the universe > itself hauled through me heavily and easily, > drawn through my body like a napkin through a ring-- > as if my father could live and die > safely inside me. > > - Sharon Olds, _The Father_ (6) > > The poem does well by its rhetoric--that long second sentence accretes > powerfully--and refuses the easy banality of its spoken grief, to choose > metaphor and meaning-making instead. The simile's flat-out stunning. As > for loose tetrameter, I'm less convinced of its effectiveness (or > usefulness) or even dominance, but that may well be another conversation. > > What bugs me: the megalomania that fuses the father and the Father into a > kind of synecdoche, the ease with which the speaker knows all (another > peeve about her work, her knowingness), and most of all, the need to give > us the final two lines rather than let the pain and gorgeousness of the > simile be all, enough. If the charge is one of narcissism, I might agree, > upon reading this poem: the final two lines seem to me an advancing of the > poet's emotions at the expense of the poem. > > Cheers. > AMP > > Alan Michael Parker Yikes, I hate to disagree with a negative comment about a mainstream poet, but I think the poem a good one, and the last two lines a kind of (standard but still effective)regretful taunt against the speaker's vain belief that she can protect her father. --Bob G. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Sep 25 11:36:49 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:36:49 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] olds References: <004f01c5c1e4$1a181fa0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00fd01c5c1e6$f27cef40$63a83852@ANNY> From: "Bob Grumman" Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 5:16 PM > > Yikes, I hate to disagree with a negative comment about a mainstream poet, > but I think the poem a good one, and the last two lines a kind of > (standard but still effective)regretful taunt against the speaker's vain > belief that she can protect her father. > > --Bob G. Ach, dear old Grumbler-Bob, tell us, do you smoke a pipe and are you wearing slippers? From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 25 11:56:26 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:56:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] olds References: <004f01c5c1e4$1a181fa0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00fd01c5c1e6$f27cef40$63a83852@ANNY> Message-ID: <005a01c5c1e9$afa0aa10$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Ach, dear old Grumbler-Bob, tell us, do you smoke a pipe and are you > wearing slippers? Neither, Anny--sorry. A cat is nearby, though, if that fits the image you're trying to sketch. -G-B G. From William_Knott at emerson.edu Sun Sep 25 13:41:32 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:41:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] olds Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B83@mail.emerson.edu> From: "Parker, Alan Michael" Good talk on Olds. Thanks for helping my weekend. My concern here is not "greatness" or "goodness" or even "goodness gracious," but that Olds has a sensibility (inclination? philosophical blindspot?) that defaults to emotion. All drama then becomes merely a function of feeling--which seems to me a place her poem has usually begun, and not a writing process rife with discovery. * . . . interesting. I guess I would argue that "a writing process rife with discovery" is exactly what most readers of poetry don't want, and that the popularity of Olds and Collins and Kooser and Levine and Oliver and other "accessible" poets is proof thereof. . . a writing process that attempts to be rife with discovery all too often becomes rife with distractions. . . I agree with Christian Wiman that the influence of Stevens has not been an entirely beneficial one. . . every poet has a "sensibility that defaults" to something or other . . . I don't under your point here about Olds: are you saying that because her poem begins with emotion, it is therefore incapable of "discovery"? That her poetry is "merely a function of feeling" and is thus inferior to verse in which "all drama is a function" of intellect? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3081 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 26 00:44:35 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 05:44:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com><00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin> <017301c5c1c1$b7449060$af9d8b56@Robin> Message-ID: <005001c5c254$ff5c07f0$1decff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> > I may be wrong that it was impossible for anyone not to collect on this as > David Bircumshaw didn't. I couldn't have, Rob, as I never published anything, nor submitted anything for publication, until the age of thirty-six. > Eric Gregory was a Sheffield businessman who set up a trust fund to give > prizes to aspiring writers under the age of thirty. Best Dave From rsillima at yahoo.com Mon Sep 26 07:24:21 2005 From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 04:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <20050926112421.4033.qmail@web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS What is a lap? The fold in Rachel Blau DuPlessis? Drafts No Direction Home: Bob Dylan & the crafting of lyrics ?Andrew Cordier / simpleton? ? Meaning in David Melnick?s Eclogs David Melnick?s ?Hasty Fields? Reading Eclogs by David Melnick Richard Nixon & Rachel Loden: Follow the dark side My Picayune Anxiety Room by the late Marc Kuykendall Robert Bolano & the art of extreme consequences A new review of the Lawrence Renaissance Born into Brothels ? children at risk Escape from New Orleans ? the flight of Bill Lavender & Nancy Dixon This is not Rosmarie, This is not Keith - Memoirs of the Waldrops The film hidden in the movie ? The Constant Gardner and testing western medicine The Americanization of Marjorie ? The Vienna Paradox of M. Perloff http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Mon Sep 26 10:29:51 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:29:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Why ... Message-ID: <79.4e77f327.30695fdf@aol.com> In a message dated 9/25/2005 8:20:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: cheap lump of bronx that is all I have to show. I was about to report this cheap insult of America to James, Robin, but then I realized he'd approve of it. Hey, wait a minute...some of my best friends are bronx. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Sep 26 12:00:54 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:00:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] olds Message-ID: In a message dated 9/25/2005 1:41:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, William_Knott at emerson.edu writes: a writing process that attempts to be rife with discovery all too often becomes rife with distractions. . . I agree with Christian Wiman that the influence of Stevens has not been an entirely beneficial one. . . Bill, Has Wiman's written on this subject? I heard him say much the same at the Wallace Stevens Conference at UConn last year. He raised a few eyebrows, even some hackles, among the clearly partisan interests in attendance. Jim Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Mon Sep 26 14:33:22 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:33:22 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Orleans Song Now Available Message-ID: <200509261709.j8QH8P2X063130@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> So, finally got a version of our "New Orleans" song (called "Where Were You Yesterday?"), written in the aftermath (and continuance) of what many in the black community are aptly calling HURRICANE AMERIKKKA, up on our myspace page (www.myspace.com/continuous peasant). This version is song by Ms. Miriam Jcobson (there's another that I sing with my less "commercial" raspy voice that will also surface soon). I apologize for not making the song downloadable right now, but at least you can hear it (and, yes, even TALK BACK TO IT if you want!). If you're interested in downloading, all proceeds from downloads will go to Hurricane Relief (NOT THE RED CROSS---more on that, when I get the download mechanism in place). Also, I'm handmaking an EP that features these two versions of the song, along with another non-New Orleans related song, which you can purchase directly from me (again all proceeds will be donated) for $5.99 But in the meantime, feel free to listen, and spread the word and request it on KPFA, KALX, KUSF, KPOO, KZSU, Pirate Cat Radio and Air America (of the Bay Area stations) ; and, last but not least, PLEASE LET ME KNOW if you or anybody else you know has written a song about this crisis. Maybe we could convince somebody like JELLO BIAFRA (don't know why I'm singling him out; probably coz he's local) to put a COMPILATION together. More later--Chris Stroffolino, Continuous Peasant www.continuouspeasant.com www.myspace.com/ continuous peasant - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amparker at davidson.edu Mon Sep 26 14:35:31 2005 From: amparker at davidson.edu (Parker, Alan Michael) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:35:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] new on olds Message-ID: Bill- interesting. I guess I would argue that "a writing process rife with discovery" is exactly what most readers of poetry don't want, and that the popularity of Olds and Collins and Kooser and Levine and Oliver and other "accessible" poets is proof thereof. . . *** I have no dog in this fight, as we say here in the South, regarding accessible poets or poetry. a writing process that attempts to be rife with discovery all too often becomes rife with distractions. . . I agree with Christian Wiman that the influence of Stevens has not been an entirely beneficial one. . . every poet has a "sensibility that defaults" to something or other . . . I don't under your point here about Olds: are you saying that because her poem begins with emotion, it is therefore incapable of "discovery"? That her poetry is "merely a function of feeling" and is thus inferior to verse in which "all drama is a function" of intellect? *** I'm neither endorsing one particular m.o. nor advancing an aesthetic either of feeling or of intellect. I'm merely trying to suggest that at times Olds seems to strive toward an emotional zenith (or nadir) that she has access to, or may even be able to name, from the outset. I resist her "knowingness," in a poem that purports to be epiphanic. cheers, AMP Alan Michael Parker www.amparker.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Sep 26 16:36:15 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:36:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] new on olds Message-ID: <1e1.453a915b.3069b5bf@aol.com> "a writing process rife with discovery" is exactly what most readers of poetry don't want, and that the popularity of Olds and Collins and Kooser and Levine and Oliver and other "accessible" poets is proof thereof. . . This is one of the more ridiculous statements I've read lately. Granted, I read this in an excerpt from Alan Michael Parker's post, so I may be reading it a bit out of context, but to say that because a poem is accessible (i.e. hte subject matter is clear on hte first reading), it is somehow incapable of discovery, well, this flies in the face of everything I know and believe about poetry. One might as well say, well, I read one book, no need to read any more. Honestly, I'm so befuddled by this I'm going to have to go back and read thsoe posts I skimmed over. And I was hoping to get something useful done today.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Sep 26 17:49:42 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:49:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] olds Message-ID: <1f0.44eaf141.3069c6f6@aol.com> Alan, I like your selection and reading of the poem. One thing to look at in the imagery that seems to undercut the grandiosity of the emotion is the abrupt change of scale: We go from the titanic of "as if I were God feeling rivers/ pulling steadily through me" collapsing to the small and domestic "like a napkin through a ring." So the question becomes one of how can the speaker/I bear this large thing and accommodate it safely (in the psyche) while getting on with dailiness of human activity. It seems to me that 99 out of 100 poets wouldn't have allowed a 'napkin & ring' into such a poem, and certainly not after invoking capital God. That's the audacity of Olds' poetry that probably should be avoided by most poets who wouldn't be able to carry it off. Finnegan In a message dated 9/25/2005 10:08:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, amparker at davidson.edu writes: THE PULLING Every hour, now, he is changing, shedding some old ability. Knees up, body tin-colored, hair black and grey, thick with grease like ritual unguent, my father moves, hour by hour, head-first, toward death, I sense every inch of him moving through me toward it, the way each child moved, slowly, down through my body, as if I were God feeling the rivers pulling steadily through me, and the earth pressing through, the universe itself hauled through me heavily and easily, drawn through my body like a napkin through a ring-- as if my father could live and die safely inside me. - Sharon Olds, _The Father_ (6) The poem does well by its rhetoric--that long second sentence accretes powerfully--and refuses the easy banality of its spoken grief, to choose metaphor and meaning-making instead. The simile's flat-out stunning. As for loose tetrameter, I'm less convinced of its effectiveness (or usefulness) or even dominance, but that may well be another conversation. What bugs me: the megalomania that fuses the father and the Father into a kind of synecdoche, the ease with which the speaker knows all (another peeve about her work, her knowingness), and most of all, the need to give us the final two lines rather than let the pain and gorgeousness of the simile be all, enough. If the charge is one of narcissism, I might agree, upon reading this poem: the final two lines seem to me an advancing of the poet's emotions at the expense of the poem. Cheers. AMP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Sep 26 22:36:17 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 03:36:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com><00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin><017301c5c1c1$b7449060$af9d8b56@Robin> <005001c5c254$ff5c07f0$1decff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <002701c5c30c$3d9d73c0$92dd8a56@Robin> > > I may be wrong that it was impossible for anyone not to collect on this as > > David Bircumshaw didn't. > > I couldn't have, Rob, as I never published anything, nor submitted anything > for publication, until the age of thirty-six. Well, I suppose that *would* create a problem, dave, as it was for "book publication". But the definition of that was pretty widely drawn -- I got mine for +Poems+ [1975] (36 pages and all of 300 copies printed and perhaps seven actually sold). Robin > > Eric Gregory was a Sheffield businessman who set up a trust fund to give > > prizes to aspiring writers under the age of thirty. > > > Best > > Dave From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 27 03:08:42 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 08:08:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com><00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin><017301c5c1c1$b7449060$af9d8b56@Robin><005001c5c254$ff5c07f0$1decff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <002701c5c30c$3d9d73c0$92dd8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <000701c5c332$4c0a9430$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> I like the seven sold, Rob. As for book publication, I'd have an even harder time, as it wasn't until I was, um, forty-seven and copies can only be obtained from a locked filing cabinet buried in cement underneath a forgotten air-raid shelter beneath a motorway extension somewhere near a place called Loughborough. (g) Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 3:36 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Olds view > > > I may be wrong that it was impossible for anyone not to collect on this > as > > > David Bircumshaw didn't. > > > > I couldn't have, Rob, as I never published anything, nor submitted > anything > > for publication, until the age of thirty-six. > > Well, I suppose that *would* create a problem, dave, as it was for "book > publication". But the definition of that was pretty widely drawn -- I got > mine for +Poems+ [1975] (36 pages and all of 300 copies printed and perhaps > seven actually sold). > > > > Robin > > > > Eric Gregory was a Sheffield businessman who set up a trust fund to give > > > prizes to aspiring writers under the age of thirty. > > > > > > Best > > > > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 27 03:26:24 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 08:26:24 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com><00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin><017301c5c1c1$b7449060$af9d8b56@Robin><005001c5c254$ff5c07f0$1decff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><002701c5c30c$3d9d73c0$92dd8a56@Robin> <000701c5c332$4c0a9430$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <002401c5c334$c7b4d580$92dd8a56@Robin> > As for book publication, I'd have an even harder time, as it wasn't until I > was, um, forty-seven and copies can only be obtained from a locked filing > cabinet buried in cement underneath a forgotten air-raid shelter beneath a > motorway extension somewhere near a place called Loughborough. > > (g) > > Dave You forgot the Dead Rodents, dave -- your poems are perhaps the only ones to have an honour guard escorting them into into oblivion composed of three dead mice and an even deader hamster. Not to speak of the unspeakable three-legged rabbit who couldn't stand the heat and got out of the garage. (Even as a corpse, that bloody rabbit caused problems ... ) The Ruptured Vulture From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 27 04:14:54 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:14:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com><00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin><017301c5c1c1$b7449060$af9d8b56@Robin><005001c5c254$ff5c07f0$1decff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><002701c5c30c$3d9d73c0$92dd8a56@Robin><000701c5c332$4c0a9430$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <002401c5c334$c7b4d580$92dd8a56@Robin> Message-ID: <002d01c5c33b$8b359ac0$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> > You forgot the Dead Rodents, dave -- your poems are perhaps the only ones to > have an honour guard escorting them into into oblivion composed of three > dead mice and an even deader hamster. > > Not to speak of the unspeakable three-legged rabbit who couldn't stand the > heat and got out of the garage. The unsaid was, obviously, that I am so overwhelmed with joy and, even, pride at this unique distinction as to render me speechless (about time, said someone in the background). There is, btw, a new review of the book, by the ghost of Kenneth Grahame, in Burblish at www.gibbersliver.com Best Ratty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Olds view > > As for book publication, I'd have an even harder time, as it wasn't until > I > > was, um, forty-seven and copies can only be obtained from a locked filing > > cabinet buried in cement underneath a forgotten air-raid shelter beneath a > > motorway extension somewhere near a place called Loughborough. > > > > (g) > > > > Dave > > You forgot the Dead Rodents, dave -- your poems are perhaps the only ones to > have an honour guard escorting them into into oblivion composed of three > dead mice and an even deader hamster. > > Not to speak of the unspeakable three-legged rabbit who couldn't stand the > heat and got out of the garage. > > (Even as a corpse, that bloody rabbit caused problems ... ) > > The Ruptured Vulture > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 08:33:51 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:33:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view In-Reply-To: <002d01c5c33b$8b359ac0$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com> <00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin> <017301c5c1c1$b7449060$af9d8b56@Robin> <005001c5c254$ff5c07f0$1decff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <002701c5c30c$3d9d73c0$92dd8a56@Robin> <000701c5c332$4c0a9430$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <002401c5c334$c7b4d580$92dd8a56@Robin> <002d01c5c33b$8b359ac0$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: www.gibbersliver.com : domain unknown? Badger On 9/27/05, David Bircumshaw wrote: > > > You forgot the Dead Rodents, dave -- your poems are perhaps the only ones > to > > have an honour guard escorting them into into oblivion composed of three > > dead mice and an even deader hamster. > > > > Not to speak of the unspeakable three-legged rabbit who couldn't stand the > > heat and got out of the garage. > > The unsaid was, obviously, that I am so overwhelmed with joy and, even, > pride at this unique distinction as to render me speechless (about time, > said someone in the background). > > There is, btw, a new review of the book, by the ghost of Kenneth Grahame, in > Burblish at www.gibbersliver.com > > Best > > Ratty > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Robin Hamilton" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 8:26 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Olds view > > > > > As for book publication, I'd have an even harder time, as it wasn't > until > > I > > > was, um, forty-seven and copies can only be obtained from a locked > filing > > > cabinet buried in cement underneath a forgotten air-raid shelter beneath > a > > > motorway extension somewhere near a place called Loughborough. > > > > > > (g) > > > > > > Dave > > > > You forgot the Dead Rodents, dave -- your poems are perhaps the only ones > to > > have an honour guard escorting them into into oblivion composed of three > > dead mice and an even deader hamster. > > > > Not to speak of the unspeakable three-legged rabbit who couldn't stand the > > heat and got out of the garage. > > > > (Even as a corpse, that bloody rabbit caused problems ... ) > > > > The Ruptured Vulture > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Sep 27 08:38:21 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 08:38:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view In-Reply-To: References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com> <00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin> <017301c5c1c1$b7449060$af9d8b56@Robin> <005001c5c254$ff5c07f0$1decff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <002701c5c30c$3d9d73c0$92dd8a56@Robin> <000701c5c332$4c0a9430$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> <002401c5c334$c7b4d580$92dd8a56@Robin> <002d01c5c33b$8b359ac0$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: My father favored Oldsmobiles but could never afford more than an 88. Hal Today's Special: Centcom Briefings Sonnets http://www.newtopiamagazine.net/archives/content/issue15/newpoetry/ centcom.php Halvard Johnson ================ email: halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 27 13:35:10 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:35:10 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olds view References: <1f3.12c80cd8.3066ea17@aol.com><00bf01c5c183$c110afe0$af9d8b56@Robin><017301c5c1c1$b7449060$af9d8b56@Robin><005001c5c254$ff5c07f0$1decff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><002701c5c30c$3d9d73c0$92dd8a56@Robin><000701c5c332$4c0a9430$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><002401c5c334$c7b4d580$92dd8a56@Robin><002d01c5c33b$8b359ac0$0becff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> Message-ID: <000f01c5c389$d09c7ea0$c7ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> > www.gibbersliver.com : domain unknown? > > Badger It would be, Roger, as I made it up. This was after several pints of Old Mole (seee Tom Sharpe) and you can consult Robin about my terrible distress (current) about Arnold (at present held to ransom for cornflakes in Nottingham0. Shocking stuff. Best Ratty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Olds view > www.gibbersliver.com : domain unknown? > > Badger > > On 9/27/05, David Bircumshaw wrote: > > > > > You forgot the Dead Rodents, dave -- your poems are perhaps the only ones > > to > > > have an honour guard escorting them into into oblivion composed of three > > > dead mice and an even deader hamster. > > > > > > Not to speak of the unspeakable three-legged rabbit who couldn't stand the > > > heat and got out of the garage. > > > > The unsaid was, obviously, that I am so overwhelmed with joy and, even, > > pride at this unique distinction as to render me speechless (about time, > > said someone in the background). > > > > There is, btw, a new review of the book, by the ghost of Kenneth Grahame, in > > Burblish at www.gibbersliver.com > > > > Best > > > > Ratty > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Robin Hamilton" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 8:26 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Olds view > > > > > > > > As for book publication, I'd have an even harder time, as it wasn't > > until > > > I > > > > was, um, forty-seven and copies can only be obtained from a locked > > filing > > > > cabinet buried in cement underneath a forgotten air-raid shelter beneath > > a > > > > motorway extension somewhere near a place called Loughborough. > > > > > > > > (g) > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > You forgot the Dead Rodents, dave -- your poems are perhaps the only ones > > to > > > have an honour guard escorting them into into oblivion composed of three > > > dead mice and an even deader hamster. > > > > > > Not to speak of the unspeakable three-legged rabbit who couldn't stand the > > > heat and got out of the garage. > > > > > > (Even as a corpse, that bloody rabbit caused problems ... ) > > > > > > The Ruptured Vulture > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > -- > http://www.badstep.net/ > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Sep 27 17:43:43 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:43:43 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cipher Journal Message-ID: <001601c5c3ac$88967480$c5c93a52@ANNY> Thanks to Lucas Klein my ten in a double vest >Italian-English< is on Cipher Journal, http://www.cipherjournal.com/html/ballardini.html Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 27 20:54:00 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:54:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hear ye, hear ye, innovation for sale Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Chiasmus contact To: Chiamsus Contact Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:54 AM Subject: FC2 WORKSHOP ANNOUNCEMENT > Please Announce, Forward, Shamelessly Promote... > (if you receive more than one of these, please forgive > our enthusiasm) > > Fiction Collective 2 in partnership with Portland > State University Presents: > > > the writer's edge > fc2's first annual innovative writing conference > July 28, 29, 30 2006 > portland state university > > workshops on innovative writing > one-on-one conferences > independent press panel > readings and multi-media events > books & dvd's > > faculty: > r. m. berry > michael martone > lance olsen > susan steinberg > lidia yuknavitch > > deadline for applications: February 1, 2006 > information: writersedge at cafezeitgeist.com > applications: http://www.fc2.org/ > > THE WORKSHOPS: > > WHAT IS WRITING? > R. M. Berry > > This workshop grows out of the idea that the principal > mark of radically innovative writing is its somehow > posing the question of its own nature and existence. > This means that innovative writing is always in some > sense about itself, but this does not mean that it > is"metafiction." On the contrary, radically innovative > writing takes the question of itself into its form and > medium, making the achievement of the text a > continuous discovery of what writing is. We will look > at three examples of formally innovative fiction and > determine how each manages to foreground the question > of itself, and then we'll try some short exercises > with disclosed frames, fake texts, narrative > displacements, self-consuming sentences, > literalizations, and other formally convoluting > devices. In particular, we'll be interested in how > the meaning of words becomes both dizzyingly equivocal > and unprecedentedly palpable whenever what the > characters do begins to look like what the writer and > reader are doing. > > > NIXON REMIX > Michael Martone > > > Philip Roth, in his essay on American fiction, > suggested that the writers of American fiction are > often outdone by the reality of American fact. He > concluded that the sheer invention found in the news > and in history engenders in the writer a professional > envy. Who wouldn't have wanted to invent Richard > Nixon let alone a character called Richard Nixon? > Roth himself uses the president in his novel Our Gang > only to see his fiction trumped by the even more > outrageously creative script of Watergate. This will > be a course on appropriation. We will be considering > ways to use free-floating shared narratives and > characters from the collective cultural consciousness > of history, of fact in completely new > (semi-fictional?) fictions. In a sense, we will be > covering standards, sampling hits, importing the > goings-on of the public domain into our own private > precincts. You might think of this as a class on > rewriting, on revision and it will very much be > interested in satire, ventriloquism, counterfeiting, > camouflage, parody, and outright plagiarism. What, in > fact, is a fact? This is a workshop about making > mythologies, fake essays and mock memoirs, and > monologues of the rich and famous about which the rich > and famous can only dream. > > > FICTION AS POSSIBILITY SPACE > Lance Olsen > > This workshop will revolve around three generative > exercises designed to explore how one can and should > open up writing in unexpected and energizing ways. > For instance, in one concerning Narratological > Amphibiousness, we shall investigate how fiction may > become richer by living commensally alongside, in, > and/or among several forms and genres at once. What > might happen, we shall ask ourselves, at the > intersection(s) of fiction and photography, music, > video, literary theory, poetry, hypertext, drama, > sculpture, painting? In other words, we shall think > of fiction as a possibility space, and, while doing > so, raise questions about the creative process, > story-telling techniques, the ideas of "the workshop" > and "the critique," and current trends in the literary > marketplace, mainstream and otherwise--finally, I > hope, bringing into greater relief why and how we do > what we do, and giving rise to three nascent > narraticules a piece. > > > FIVE EASY PIECES: HOW TO FORM, DEFORM, AND REFORM > NARRATIVE USING THE FICTIONAL FRAGMENT > Lidia Yuknavitch > > What happens if we turn away from the idea that > narrative form must be unified in traditional ways? > Might other models of narrative form emerge which > better articulate the present? Drawing from notions > of > narrative "micromovements" (Nathalie Sauraute), the > model of the narrative "kaleidescope" (Marcel Proust, > Marguerite Duras), and more contemporary experiments > using narrative fracturing devices and the > interruption of narrative with the visual, this > workshop will provide participants with strategies for > understanding and practicing fiction writing let loose > from mainstream meaning-making and market-driven > forms. Participants will explore the gains and losses > of using the fictional fragment to tell a story and > produce a text. > > > WRITING OBSESSION, WRITING AS IF OBSESSED > Susan Steinberg > > If one believes that stories (and poems) must be > inspired, in part, by obsession, by those very things > we can't keep from spinning around in our heads, then > shouldn't the writing itself reflect the > narrator's/main character's focus? Could Ginsberg's > "Howl" have been written in rhyming couplets? Could > Duras' The Lover have been written as an un-fragmented > text? Perhaps, perhaps not. In this workshop, we > will explore the ways in which various modern and > contemporary authors effectively writing > obsession/obsessively consider the inextricable > relationship of form and content, paying particular > attention to (often unconsciously chosen) rhetorical > and experimental devices: repetition, recursion, > ranting, listing, among many others. We will also try > for ourselves to extract the stories we find ourselves > repeatedly writing, telling, and thinking in order to > match our content, in a scene, to a form (or vice > versa), exploring the multitude of options available > to us in terms of narrative voice and storytelling. > > FC2 is one of the few alternative presses in America > devoted to publishing fiction considered by America's > largest publishers too challenging, innovative, or > heterodox for the commercial milieu. Please visit us > at: http://www.fc2.org/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Sep 28 12:10:07 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:10:07 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Book Reviews Message-ID: <002801c5c447$18902870$21ab3852@ANNY> > Van: Richard J Ellis [mailto:r.j.ellis at bham.ac.uk] > Verzonden: woensdag 28 september 2005 14:07 The Interdisciplinary Journal of North American Studies, 49th Parallel has a list of titles available for book review. Those interested in contributing a review for the Spring 2006 edition can contact the Editors at 49thParallel at bham.ac.uk How America Goes to War Frank E. Vandiver Praegar, June 2005 Hardback 0-275-98514-8 This work offers an unprecedented single-volume overview of a timely subject: how a democracy wages war, and how in turn war making affects democracy. Times of Heroism, Times of Terror: American Presidents and the Cold War Martin Thornton Praegar, May 2005 Hardback 0-275-98001-4 Details the approach ten presidents took when faced with international crises during the cold war. Unions, Radicals, and Democratic Presidents: Seeking Social Change in the Twentieth Century Martin Halpern Praegar, November 2003 304pp Hardback 0-313-32471-9 Highlights key episodes in the struggles of labour unions, radicals, and progressive coalitions to produce reforms during the terms of Democratic presidents. Case Studies of U.S. Economic Sanctions: The Chinese, Cuban, and Iranian Experience Hossein G. Askari, John Forrer, Hildy Teegen, and Jiawen Yang Praegar, November 2003 304pp Hardback 1-56720-541-0 Examines a broad range of issues raised by the U.S. use of economic sanctions against China, Cuba, and Iran. The "Great Satan" vs. the "Mad Mullahs": How the United States and Iran Demonize Each Other William O. Beeman Praegar, May 2005 Hardback 0-275-98214-9 Exposes the hostile U.S.-Iranian relationship as the result of a mutual demonization, not the result of an actual mutual threat. A North-South Mind in an East-West World: Chester Bowles and the Making of United States Cold War Foreign Policy, 1951-1969 Richard P. Dauer Praegar, June 2005 Hardback 0-313-32027-6 Analyzes Chester Bowles's career as a public servant and diplomat, and how his attempts to moderate hard-line Cold War policies largely went ignored. U.S. Development Aid - An Historic First Achievements and Failures in the Twentieth Century Samuel Hale Butterfield Praegar, August 2004 336pp Hardback 0-313-31910-3 Presents a comprehensive and evaluative picture of U.S. development aid policies and implementation operations throughout the developing world. The American President in Popular Culture John Matviko Praegar, July 2005 232pp Hardback 0-313-32705-X >From George Washington in early American mythology to George W. Bush waving the starting flag at a NASCAR event, the leader of the executive branch has often taken stage in the forum of American popular culture. The book presents a survey of how popular culture has been influenced by presidents throughout history. American Citizens, British Slaves: Yankee Political Prisoners in an Australian Penal Colony 1839-1850 . Cassandra Pybus & Hamish Maxwell-Stewart Michigan State University Press, 2002 0-522-85027-8 ( American History- Canadian History- Criminal Justice) This book tells the story of almost a hundred US citizens who were transported to Van Dieman's Land in 1839-40. Political prisoners of Her Majesty's government from conducting border raids into colony of Upper Canada in 1838, they were sent to present-day Australia to deter other Yankees from doing likewise. This book recounts their experience of political exile and cruelties of penal transportation based on narratives written by the prisoners. This Kindred People: Canadian-American Relations & the Anglo-Saxon Idea, 1895-1903 Edward P Cohen McGill-Queen's University Press, 2004 0-7735-2796-6 Charts how Canadians and Americans helped foster the Anglo-American relationships that would shape the twentieth century by emphasizing their "kinship" and common ideas. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From queenmouse at gmail.com Wed Sep 28 13:30:32 2005 From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:30:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jenny Holzer's latest Project: Truisms in Words and Light Message-ID: Jenny Holzer has long been one of my favorite artists. I really wish I could be in NYC to see this: After the Sept. 11 attacks, Jenny Holzer, like so many artists, got calls asking how she would memorialize the events. All she could think of at the time was to leave bare the two scarred pits where the World Trade Center had stood. "Because I didn't really have an answer, I kept thinking about the question," she said one recent afternoon on the steps of the New York Public Library. Her "much delayed answer," as she calls it, will illuminate three of the city's most heavily trafficked locations, beginning tomorrow night. With the help of the public art organization Creative Time, Ms. Holzer, 55, will project United States government documents and the words of some 20 international poets for 11 nights on the facades of five buildings: 30 Rockefeller Center and two other buildings in that complex (tomorrow through Oct. 2); the Bobst Library at New York University in Greenwich Village (Oct. 3 through 5); and the public library (Oct. 6 through 9). "I think the documents I used are representative of what I came across," she said. "Ultimately, it's a personal representation, since I made it. But it's not a polemical selection." Poets whose work will be projected include Wislawa Szymborska, Jack Gilbert (not bad at all, eh Jim?), Walt Whitman, and Allen Ginsberg. (I may just have to find a way to get down there-- The Carlton Arms always has good inexpensive rooms.) Suzanne Burns -- "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and you have style." --Quentin Crisp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Sep 28 13:43:55 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:43:55 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jenny Holzer's latest Project: Truisms in Words andLight References: Message-ID: <00d501c5c454$329e4fa0$21ab3852@ANNY> I agree on Jenny Holzer, she was present also at the Venice Biennale this year. The link does not work, but from what I understand you copied and pasted the text. ----- Original Message ----- From: Suzanne Burns To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 7:30 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Jenny Holzer's latest Project: Truisms in Words andLight Jenny Holzer has long been one of my favorite artists. I really wish I could be in NYC to see this: After the Sept. 11 attacks, Jenny Holzer, like so many artists, got calls asking how she would memorialize the events. All she could think of at the time was to leave bare the two scarred pits where the World Trade Center had stood. "Because I didn't really have an answer, I kept thinking about the question," she said one recent afternoon on the steps of the New York Public Library. Her "much delayed answer," as she calls it, will illuminate three of the city's most heavily trafficked locations, beginning tomorrow night. With the help of the public art organization Creative Time, Ms. Holzer, 55, will project United States government documents and the words of some 20 international poets for 11 nights on the facades of five buildings: 30 Rockefeller Center and two other buildings in that complex (tomorrow through Oct. 2); the Bobst Library at New York University in Greenwich Village (Oct. 3 through 5); and the public library (Oct. 6 through 9). "I think the documents I used are representative of what I came across," she said. "Ultimately, it's a personal representation, since I made it. But it's not a polemical selection." Poets whose work will be projected include Wislawa Szymborska, Jack Gilbert (not bad at all, eh Jim?), Walt Whitman, and Allen Ginsberg. (I may just have to find a way to get down there-- The Carlton Arms always has good inexpensive rooms.) Suzanne Burns -- "Start with your identity, which is a combination of your assets and what your friends mean when they discuss 'the trouble with you,' polish that, and you have style." --Quentin Crisp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Wed Sep 28 14:44:31 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:44:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy saves poetry Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B88@mail.emerson.edu> ...weren't those disgrunt brits who post here just saying no one buys poetry in merrie old? no one buys theirs is what they mean... but of course it's different with the Duff: Bookstandard Web It Could Be Verse: Duffy Saves Poetry September 27, 2005 By Giles Elliott Despite various attempts to reinvigorate the genre, sales of poetry books have been in sharp decline, falling by more than 5% in 2004 and by more than 12% this year. . . One writer who can bring in a wider audience, though, is Carol Ann Duffy. The Manchester-based poet and playwright tops the current poetry chart with her most famous work, The World's Wife, with her latest collection, Rapture (also Picador), in fourth place after less than a week in the shops. 1. THE WORLD'S WIFE, Carol Ann Duffy (Picador, 033037222X) 2. SONGS OF INNOCENCE AND OF EXPERIENCE, William Blake (OUP, 0192810898) 3. THE WHITSUN WEDDINGS, Philip Larkin (Faber, 0571097103) 4. RAPTURE, Carol Ann Duffy (Picador, 0330412809) 5. NOW WE ARE SIXTY, Christopher Matthew (John Murray, 0719559790) (Based on sales in Nielsen BookScan's Total Consumer Market in the week to 17th September. ) ? ? ? ? ? ? From hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 28 14:54:55 2005 From: hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk (gbemi tijani-mst) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:54:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: [New-Poetry] poetic compassion-neglect will ruin world souls Message-ID: <20050928185455.37292.qmail@web26004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Viewpoint post to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Poetic Compassion ?Neglect Will Ruin The World Souls. Comment from GBEMI TIJANI- MST Email:hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk Re: (Prof TONY LOPEZ) While searching for Thomas Merton foundation weekly reflection linked by Contemporary Poetry Review ?s post by Gabriel Gudding ?s September 11 Message-I ram into KELLEY WRITERS HOUSE which listed the prolific works of Tony Lopez ,Professor of Poetry at University of Plymouth and author of 20 books of poetry, fiction and criticism. His creative works ?especially the diverse topics depict poetic sensibilities and triumphs almost comparable to John Updike,Edward Morgan in their miscellany. His early beginning was similar to Isaac Asimov as a science fiction free lance writer .Asimov very much earlier though and was always having problem with library staff for returning very fat books late . Although both Lopez and Asimov were lecturers Asimov resigned from Boston University where he was teaching biochemistry for full time writing.His medical doctor wife was actually for fear of survival on mere book royalties but Asimov consoled her by turning out about 400 titles including Matter over Mind AND several fat books of fiction and non-fiction alike including SHAKESPEAREAN annotations for less wittier readers. Lopez is well-known for his poetry performance in Europe and North America, Asimov is also well-reputed for public lectures in numerous universities in the USA except that he has phobia for air travel .However I felicitate with Lopez ?s efforts at stabilizing thoughts into works of art ?which is subliminally facile only insofar as a writer or poet is gifted, conscientious and diligent. I wish I could have access to NEGATIVE EQUITY , FALSE MEMORY, The English Disease and Conductors of Chaos or just any title he could afford to compliment or autograph or mail to me I guess he knows that some abstract things don?t need organoleptical testing just as the taste of the cake is in the pudding. I ?m also buoyed that his creative output transcends the poetry just like Danie Absie in the UK and Edward Morgan of Scotland authored miscellaneously. His profile indicated big awards from SOA-Society of authors in the UK. I ?m actually struck by inequities that run across his literary works ?especially from these titles: A PATH MARKED WITH BREADCRUMBS, DATA SHADOW, DEVOLUTION, CHANGE etc The Figures, Reality Street, Salt, Equipage - his publishers or subtitles of his works? They ?re simply symbolic themselves. Imagine Pig Press and Curiously Strong. Like any enlightened totally evolved publishers- workers will be deliciously led ?if not spirit moved to handle his manuscript with hilarity and consummate candour. I?m curiously lusty about ABSTRACT & DELICIOUS-published by Secret Press.. Please forgive my asking ?I?m far from being possessive. Other than book matter I loathe stinginginess..I ?m just thankful that writers and poets share certain sensitivities ? probe into similar idiosyncrasies in their local, ecological and global societies and rarely do their sense organs, inner eyes and polyvalent feelers remain active in SAFE MODE without expressing out the good and the bad. Some are even very poetic or humorously gifted enough to paint these in a seemingly harmless but not so libelous works as possible in drama, lampoons, dance sketches, fictions and sagaciously truthful novels, multimedia editorials, effigies, sculptures, bead or collage paintings, movies and graffiti. Whereas their artistic lens are equally alert at painting the good, the hilarities, the hustle and bustle ,the spendour and ardour of city life ,the serenity of the country and beautiful bays, the chirpings of insects and allied creatures in the forests, the utopia, the achievable ideal, the commendable travail of tragic heroes, the dilemma of the princess in bittersweet love, the resourcefulness ?or otherwise the longevity of heroes, the comedy of errors which the authors themselves as their creator-character builder possibly imagine to endure,moralise or theorize to survive as long as the message or mission of the genre that catalyses the artistic architect is accomplished .-he should be partially fulfilled or fully paid. As the simple designer, albeit provoked by the natural or artificial environment and possibly he?s literarily targeting this same intended or anonymous audience for a prosaic or profane art for art sake deal or toiling at a panache, panacea or therapy or even trying to produce a primer if the endeavor is to perpetuate a folkloric saga or some coveted tradition. This is hardly a creative mirage in countries with strong oral literature and modern written culture ?especially Japan & Africa. Needless to cite Europe, Canada and North America with long established multimedia that also ennobled education and dissemination of the arts ?poetry inclusive. Nothing else will top the agenda as perennial delight as well as working tools of artistic growth and cultural understanding than budgeting for a a mobile library with garret of books beyond my attic wherever I later chose to dwell with my other half-who would be my first editor, fervent collector and doer of Christ gospel and poetry. I hope this is speedily blessed-to glorify the Superior Poet-the Transcendental Scientist and Sculptor of the whole universe and of course the local and global writers societies, blogs,mentors that help to adjust, weigh and compare standard or literary temerity .Or again those who help to supervise conformity to artistic conventions per se in addition to producing the dynamo of the initially amorphous ideas now convertible to walk or work, to recreate or inform or entertain the local reader or serve the global user This is another point of conjecture ?that no matter how gifted the poet or any human being might be ?intellectually or materially, s(he) still needs others to read or further develop or disseminate his creative productions which ?beyond printing involve a bandwagon of professionals or collaborators .If the work foci or writer ?s product is communally infectious or perpetually indelible such as we?ve seen in the works of W.S. ( aka WILLIAM SHAKESPEAR of England),Walt Whitman( Leaves of Grass-a poem sequence celebrating 150 -Year Anniversary Reading in some American Universities and Poetry Circles,WCW( also a doctor poet ?s writings that endure beyond a life span ,many authored or anonymous works are enduringly relevant or have become truthful to their social milieu e.g. one of the earliest poems of the 1986 Nobel Laureate ,Wole Soyinka ?TELEPHONE CONVERSATION written in London while he was a student at Leeds and searching for appropriate accommodation owned by a racial landlady asking a repugnant question The price seemed reasonable.Location Indifferent.The landlady swore she lived Off premises.Nothing remained But self confession.Madam . I warned I hate a wasted journey-I am African Silence .Silence transmission of Pressurised good breeding.Voice cehen it came Lipstick coated.Long gold rolled Cigarette holder pipped.Caught I was loudly How dark ?I had not misheard-Are you light? Or very dark/Button.B.Button.A stench The same is true of a 1927 poem written by Laura Muller in response to New Orleans whirl wind disaster now reechoed in the KATRINA & RITA HURRICANES Albeit regrettably ravaging the precious, priceless human lives unimaginable despite the wealth of science and opulence of America and the fraternity of the UNITED NATIONS Its really a poetic issue that such a possibly preventable mass evacuation ?call it geological exodus ?elude the compassion as well as the comity of meteorological, oceanic, earth sciences forecast acting or networking globally-and coalition of WORLD NGOs too. POETS MUST BLAME AMERICA as well as President Bush BUT WE MUST ALSO UPBRAID Catholic America, Pentecostal, Orthodox Churches and the Assemblies of God Faithfuls to respond to evacuation finance far ahead of or simultaneous to Federal Relief effort- which was belated and somehow not speedy enough to save victims of the costal cities from hurricane perish of that dimension as poetically amplified in Laura Muller ?s poetry New Orleans is wiping away New Orleans is wiping away and personal correspondence with Dennis Formento- a poet and inhabitant of Stilded near New Orleans Kudos to all philanthropic and church missions that raise and post donation or send direct material support to the victims in millions ?Go d will surely mitigate their suffering if any at all! In fact, in truth God will forbid such a miasma. But we should all beware of neglect in our private and public lives. Pastor Connie Giordano rightly warned her global congregation in the message of August 8 about this vital means of holding restoration of the soul. Her citing Barnes notes is spiritually challenging for our brothers concern elsewhere: There?s nothing in earthly affairs that is valuable that will not be ruined if it is not attended to ?and why may it not be so with the concerns of the soul? ?Neglect is enough to ruin a man?s business and life. Most calamities are caused by simple neglect? ?Connie ministered prior to the Katrina hurricane. Right there in America Linda Goodman writes in one of her astrological books that ?YOU TOO CAN BECOME A SAINT ?IF YOU LOVE SOMEONE THAT HATES YOU, DEMONSTRATES THAT EVILISH ATTITUDE STUBBORNLY and you love him in return without revenging with the same vehemence or atrocity ?a force of love that will be gathered will be so great or gracious that you will enjoy a psychological shield if not an mortal immunity- this extrapolation is actually mine. However this may not be logical but it?s spiritually or domestically worth testing. But then you can pick a copy of her LOVE SIGNS that I owned since the late 70S ? and has been taken unreturned by a friend ?when we were both Buddhists. Shirley Dye, an affable, lovely, kind American woman from San Francisco used to be a Buddhist too and especially my encourager. Shirley and I used to exchange long deathless prose and poster ?size poems which are actually aesthetically inevitable harvest of the small town where I was teaching sciences at secondary level in present day Ogun State,Isaga -Abeoukuta and was then offered government scholarship tenable in American universities by my home state and waiting for a multidisciplinary acceptance beyond the Liberal Arts admission.. However I can?t explain our attrition with Shirley Dye ?we can bet it- we ?d like to maintain correspondence even in our 40s-or 90s as we rediscover each other again-God willing .We ?re never bored of utilitarian correspondences no matter how poetic or political in texture. I no longer believe in astrology nor Soka Gakkai nor Nichiren Buddhism but surely JESUS CHRIST and the bible and several sacred sutras support /preach human love and rebuke revenge or slothfulness in responding to fellow human conditions ABOUT TO PERISH. Africans in Diaspora ?especially Yoruba-Nigerians call it AJOBI, AJOGBE, AGBAJO-OWO..In fact many ivory inaugural lectures thematic of indigenous but exportable spiritual African communalism ?not just PhD theses have been delivered/written by scholars at OAU-OBAFEMI AWOLOWO UNIVERSITY Ile ?Ife, and elsewhere in African Studies in Nigeria. Ibadan Cultural Studies Group(ICSG), is another flourishing poetic fountain of the bottomless heritage of the arts/poetry inherent in a society that any humans who don?t drop from the sky hails ?and abounds. ORIN EWURO is a recent interdisciplinary cultural performance coordinated by Adedotun Ogundeji, a professor of arts and learned IJALA poet at UI THEATRE ARTS AUDITORIUM. There?s another monograph that buttress this universal fecundity integral in some traditional oral cultures, much more stabilized in form-is the CLASSIFICATORY PARADIGMS IN AFRICAN ORAL NARRATIVE by Ademola O. Dasylva, former Head of English Department, and co-editor, ISESE MONOGRAPH SERIES,VOL 1,NO.1,1999 Santera worshippers a vestigial recollection of traditional spiritual arts in Africa ,then in Cuba ,Brazil have recrystalised the ORISA group of deities to an organized religion of priests and adherents that believe in Orunmila ?YORUBA GOD OF CREATION . >From the foregoing philosophies, belief models, liturgies coupled with global human love affairs or geological events such as TSUNAMI or Katrina and allied earth quaking that are less precisely predictable and more disastrous as human psychology ?wouldn?t it be foolish to rank any field of human endeavor as the king - the more desirable of study or less superior to support or more perennially benevolent to pursue as a preventive weapon against these disasters at the geographical level or even at the nation- to -nation reconciliatory moves ..especially as science forecasts ? they will occur? In other words is it poetry or physics we must embrace in studies and practice ?.Or again should we believe in all ?as logically identified hitherto that all knowledge is LIGHT and all are vital for human existence and egalitarianism ?nonetheless their total development as a human being with higher mental capacities than their counterpart apes? IF we recognize that any aspect of knowledge is useful and benign ?should we be human to embrace its import or inherent values it teaches? If they ?re ipso facto endorsed, entrenched by institutions universally should their students, graduates neglect the practice of such disciplines ?let alone their ethics? For instance advanced technological experiments, research, product patents, IMPLANTS, ED/viagra, IVF, CLONING AVITENE, SPACE CITY, ALLOY THAT SHATTER ROCKS and other useful breakthroughs including the internet and advanced micro-circuitry are laudable but as the late ISAAC ASIMOV, well-known Boston biochemist and scifi writer (from his youthful age- eleven) wrote ?must a robot break the law of its maker ?man -that it should not injure him? Again see the ubiquity- in convenience and glamour of science /technology in our planet especially in medicine, public health, multimedia news & data transmission that also convey secular, spiritual, political and management archives and updates, automobile /air travel etc but try to gaze reflectively or fictitiously what science can ever do or may not be able to do. This should also stretch our imaginations within and beyond the TSUNAMI and KATRINA hurricane disaster. It is on record that scientists of all stripes have battled the hurricane headlong in the past with a formidable force but scientifically or metaphysically incomparable with a thermonuclear bomb dishing out 420 megatons every 20 minutes to counteract the whirl wind but to no avail Imagine a Category 4-5 hurricane with a sweeping profile of about 185 miles/hour -speed blowing across a 90-km square radius, using or converting steel bridges, mansions and structures as missiles! This shows or points to us that we should stretch our cultural or intellectual freedom much more to those who ?re studying nature, worshipping nature, appraising the attributes of nature in the natural sciences, artistic and anthropological sciences and allied humane faculties so that we all continue to probe and rediscover The Enigma of Nature as we comprehend planet earth that is still a microcosm of the solar system Evidently we all know that the ancient religious books and related liturgies are full of deep mystical poetry appraising the Overself or God or gods or deities relating to the sun or the wind or sea - EAST OR WEST-each civilization trying to acknowledge nature and elements of her survival ?possibly because they could not point out something else that matter to them or that they could not identify ?who else create them ?surrounding habitat inclusive. A lay anthropologist can also hypothesize that they do revere nature in its primordial form but they can?t understand in toto her elements-yet they were nonetheless scientific in their trial and error experimentation of the experimentables such as watching what they?ll presently call taboos, useful herbs,waxing and waning of the moon , the sun rise/setting leading to better folk medicine and ethno- agricultural seasons and time charting. The very recent UNIVERSITY MISSION RESEARCH by Nigeria ?s oldest ivory tower- University of Ibadan-tagged WASTE TO WEALTH PROJECT are predominantly rooted in or provoked by folk knowledge, enhanced and developed by scientific investigations mainly by pharmaceutical mcrobiologists,chemists,soil scientists ,foresters and ethno-botanists,agro and mechanical engineers,vets and biologists Eco-friendly household biogas Digesters, many about -to- be patented drugs, antibiotics, anti ?malarials,anti -hypertensives,anti ?histamines and much more from industrial recyclying were exhibited for three days. The project ?s target is to invent and produce new products endogenously potent and appropriate to environmental protection, degradation control and resource depletion. Should we then condemn or snare science -even if not yet tsunami or hurricane daring? Should we not be reviewing the curricula or requisite qualifications or mere knowledge exposure of those WHO WILL BE FUTURE SCIENTISTS or Presidents of all human societies must be POETICALLY LITERATE or just people of testable human compassion no matter their otherwise I.Q..They should have proof of humaneness just in case their subjects are suddenly vulnerable to personal or ecological upheavals, emergencies, afflictions and as such are beyond their immediate friends intervention. Shouldn?t a TRULY POETIC or SCIENTIFIC STATE be a succour or savior in these times ?.Surely it?ll promote humanity and enhance our comradery everywhere . Whereas science can build inordinate weaponry for identified or needless defence planning as ancient and modern treaties permit that may or may not guaranty victory ?albeit temporarily. A poetic mind lazed with a caring heart can be both a redeemer as well as a knight not necessarily untouchable by mere reverence due to his shining armory but venerated, popular, harmless by mere aura of love ?rooted from his past valour ?far from needless defence .He would be ALWAYS wanted, worshipped of course for his courage and skills ?if they are subjected to any enemy attack but may not be popular or respected by well-meaning people if he?s obsessed in prompting or abetting proxy wars ? unwary, utilitarian oppressive ideological marketing. History of ancient and modern man has shown the waterloo of such narcissistic warriors or heroes and their abettors. Imagine the duel between David and Goliath and how the former defeated by mere ROCK and SLING-despite the war garment and intimidating gait of Goliath! It should be noted that as a gospel truth that the power of KINDNESS can also be very pacific In Ro 2: 4 and 2 King 5:2 The story of Elisha s? pursuit by whole army but miraculously God blinded the army and Elisha led them into the king of Israel who was naturally giddy over finishing them off so that they never trouble him again instead of killing them with swords ?which only kill bodies unlike kindness that can reach deep into their enemy ?s heart and kill their enmity. That?s why Elisha called for a feast rather than a bloodbath. As BACK TO GOD HOUR preached-the band from Aram stopped raiding Israel?s territory-thus showing that in the heat of conflict, kindness is the secret weapon. Its transforming power cools the head, softens the heart and melts the hatred that can run so deep. Thomas Merton reechoed this peaceful love in the weekly reflection post by Gabriel Gudding to CP NV, SEPT 11 EDITION,2005 that only respect for nature?s creations and love of man can provoke respect for life, freedom, truth and justice and neither mistrust nor installing gadgets on the moon will induce fear.? And who knows if fear alone will suffice to prevent a war of total destruction?, he tacitly advanced in SEEDS OF DESTRUCTION (p.183) Straus & Giroux, 1964. As our technological dexterity grows we should be developing in poetic if not spiritual mind setting too-so that our humanity can be genuinely humane without madly auto-digesting its own population of inbuilt immunity always affordable by the LYMPH-in this case I?m referring to the human race as one unique species who has not learnt from the yester years of genocide and ITS REVERSAL OF PROGRESS ?other than THE POETIC LAMENT on this shameful accident of history. Who can poetize Nagasaki, Horoshima,Nazi-including several civil wars in Africa prior to or after colonial experience? and September 11 experience well enough to recover the collective loss to human pool of WORLD WONDER of sanctity ? Who can inject poetic values to all ?the young, the old the high and the low ,the influential and the top echelons in burearactic,civil,clergy,academia,media the foundations,trustees,the banks and the professions ?the politicians and the military inclusive to humanize us permanently more than hitherto unsatisfactory level. Today ?s consumerisms as well as new age freedom have not made us more humane? Where lies the solution? Who are to blame- the poet or the politician or the pastors and muezzins? Who are we to blame for the intercultural mud slinging? All these will have to re-examine themselves how they could impact on humanity safely and successfully without violence. Notably almost anything can be marketed or boundlessly popularized in peace milieu ?accentuated with love-a common indicator of true but not predatory survival. Live and let live is endearing and possibly resourceful for any kind of ideological and theological proselytizing ?if not redundant ?except where oppression of man to man is endemic or evident. This is condemnable and unkind and the whole comity of nations should annul such a practice or hegemony. The role of the creative and critical literary miscellany is magnanimous and cannot be over flogged in this age of almost boundless freedom for a lifestyle that might injure others individually or collectively -we need a humane conscience in all fields of human thought but we should annul hateful or terrorist actions as if this is the solution to human dignity or pride I don?t think this strategic revenge should be potent any longer if the all we? ve harvested from the arts are any lessons to live by ..I may be wrong but at least this is a humble submission to ponder on ?especially by godly, humane poets, politicians, scientists and defence echelons locally and globally. We should not only practise poetic love ?which all-religious faith preach we must annul hypocrisy in our hearts and international relations. -VIEWPOINT by GBEMI TIJANI MST-Convener: Development Friendly Foundation, executive director: planet forum --------------------------------- How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William_Knott at emerson.edu Wed Sep 28 15:35:07 2005 From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:35:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B76@mail.emerson.edu> . . . considering how leading women poets like Duffy and Olds are denigrated so often on this forum, it's no surprise that so few of the posters here are women. . .? what is the ratio of male to female here? Alan Parker faults Olds for her "default of emotion" ... I must be misunderstanding what he says, because he can't be saying that she is too emotional, too "functional with feeling" to be a great poet . . . he can't really be saying that, because that's the same sexist claptrap nonsense used to demean and demote and demonize women since forever. . . it sounds like a rightwing talkshow host describing Cindy Sheehan: "Harumph, she's too emotionally involved, too distraught over the loss of her son to be able to understand the nation's foreign policy goals in the War on Terror; she's blinded by her feelings and can't see that if we can only stand resolute, the course of our crusade will be rife with discoveries of new oil revenues and freedom for our allies blah blah. . ." talk about a default position! I must be misunderstanding you, Alan Michael. . . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3015 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Sep 28 19:35:55 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:35:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B76@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <009401c5c485$632d6120$9bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> This is the kind of high-minded discussion of poetry that New-Poetry seems to me most valuable. No name-calling, just a pleasant suggestion of sexism. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Knott" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:35 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds . . . considering how leading women poets like Duffy and Olds are denigrated so often on this forum, it's no surprise that so few of the posters here are women. . .? what is the ratio of male to female here? Alan Parker faults Olds for her "default of emotion" ... I must be misunderstanding what he says, because he can't be saying that she is too emotional, too "functional with feeling" to be a great poet . . . he can't really be saying that, because that's the same sexist claptrap nonsense used to demean and demote and demonize women since forever. . . it sounds like a rightwing talkshow host describing Cindy Sheehan: "Harumph, she's too emotionally involved, too distraught over the loss of her son to be able to understand the nation's foreign policy goals in the War on Terror; she's blinded by her feelings and can't see that if we can only stand resolute, the course of our crusade will be rife with discoveries of new oil revenues and freedom for our allies blah blah. . ." talk about a default position! I must be misunderstanding you, Alan Michael. . . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Sep 28 19:39:58 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:39:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thoughts about a passage of Language Poetry References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B76@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <009a01c5c485$f02e0750$9bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Just to show, once again, that I can be positive about some poetry, here's a door to a blog entry of mine on a passage by P. Inman that I like: http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Blog00605.html And I've never been a big champion of language poetry. --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Wed Sep 28 23:28:17 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:28:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B76@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <004501c5c4a5$d5d06720$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> We don't denigrate leading male poets? ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Knott" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:35 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds . . . considering how leading women poets like Duffy and Olds are denigrated so often on this forum, it's no surprise that so few of the posters here are women. . .? what is the ratio of male to female here? Alan Parker faults Olds for her "default of emotion" ... I must be misunderstanding what he says, because he can't be saying that she is too emotional, too "functional with feeling" to be a great poet . . . he can't really be saying that, because that's the same sexist claptrap nonsense used to demean and demote and demonize women since forever. . . it sounds like a rightwing talkshow host describing Cindy Sheehan: "Harumph, she's too emotionally involved, too distraught over the loss of her son to be able to understand the nation's foreign policy goals in the War on Terror; she's blinded by her feelings and can't see that if we can only stand resolute, the course of our crusade will be rife with discoveries of new oil revenues and freedom for our allies blah blah. . ." talk about a default position! I must be misunderstanding you, Alan Michael. . . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 29 06:17:39 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:17:39 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetic compassion-neglect will ruin world souls References: <20050928185455.37292.qmail@web26004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005001c5c4df$068ca980$84078b56@Robin> From: gbemi tijani-mst Re: (Prof TONY LOPEZ) << the diverse topics depict poetic sensibilities and triumphs almost comparable to John Updike,Edward Morgan in their miscellany. I 'm also buoyed that his creative output transcends the poetry just like Danie Absie in the UK and Edward Morgan of Scotland authored miscellaneously. His profile indicated big awards from SOA-Society of authors in the UK. >> Does this Edward Morgan poet figure bear any relation to Scotland's poet laureate, Edwin Morgan? (Also, is "Danie Absie" a cover-name for Dannie Abse?) I draw attention to this as if anyone attempts to google <<"Edward Morgan" poet>>, they may get some odd answers. There are 69,700 google hits for Edwin Morgan (23,200 for Dannie Abse), so I imagine there will be quite a bit of his poetry available on the Web. Here's one poem ("Cinquevala"). Robin Cinquevalli Edwin Morgan Cinquevalli is falling, falling. The shining trapeze kicks and flirts free, solo performer at last. The sawdust puffs up with a thump, settles on a tangle of broken limbs. St Petersburg screams and leans. His pulse flickers with the gas-jets. He lives. Cinquevalli has a therapy. In his hospital bed, in his hospital chair he holds a ball, lightly, lets it roll round his hand, or grips it tight, gauging its weight and resistance, begins to balance it, to feel its life attached to his by will and knowledge, invisible strings that only he can see. He throws it from hand to hand, always different, always the same, always different, always the same. His muscles learn to think, his arms grow very strong. Cinquevalli in sepia looks at me from an old postcard: bundle of enigmas. Half faun, half military man; almond eyes, curly hair, conventional moustache; tights, and a tunic loaded with embroideries, tassels, chains, fringes; hand on hip with a large signet-ring winking at the camera but a bull neck and shoulders and a cannon-ball at his elbow as he stands by the posing pedestal; half reluctant, half truculent, half handsome, half absurd, but let me see you forget him: not to be done. Cinquevalli is a juggler. In a thousand theatres, in every continent, he is the best, the greatest. After eight years perfecting he can balance one billiard ball on another billiard ball on top of a cue on top of a third billiard ball in a wine glass held in his mouth. To those who say the balls are waxed, or flattened, he patiently explains the trick will only work because the spheres are absolutely true. There is no deception in him. He is true. Cinquevalli is juggling with a bowler, a walking-stick, a cigar, a coin. Who foresees? How to please. The last time round, the bowler flies to his head, the stick sticks in his hand, the cigar jumps into his mouth, the coin lands on his foot - ah, but is kicked into his eye and held there as the miraculous monocle without which the portrait would be incomplete. Cinquevalli is practising. He sits in his dressing-room talking to some friends, at the same time writing a letter with one hand and with the other juggling four balls. His friends think of demons, but 'You could do all this,' he says, sealing the letter with a billiard ball. Cinquevalli is on the high wire in Odessa. The roof cracks, he is falling, falling into the audience, a woman breaks his fall, he cracks her like a flea, but lives. Cinquevalli broods in his armchair in Brixton Road. He reads in the paper about the shells whining at Passchendaele, imagines the mud and the dead. He goes to the window and wonders through that dark evening what is happening in Poland where he was born. His neighbours call him a German spy. 'Kestner, Paul Kestner, that's his name!' 'Keep Kestner out of the British music-hall!' He frowns; it is cold; his fingers seem stiff and old. Cinquevalli tosses a plate of soup and twirls it on his forefinger; not a drop spills. He laughs, and well may he laugh who does that. The astonished table breathe again, laugh too, think the world a spinning thing that spills, for a moment, no drop. Cinquevalli's coffin sways through Brixton only a few months before the Armistice. Like some trick they cannot get off the ground it seems to burden the shuffling bearers, all their arms cross-juggle that displaced person, that man of balance, of strength, of delights and marvels, in his unsteady box at last into the earth. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 29 06:40:54 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:40:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B76@mail.emerson.edu> Message-ID: <006301c5c4e2$47674390$84078b56@Robin> From: "William Knott" << . . . considering how leading women poets like Duffy and Olds are denigrated so often on this forum, it's no surprise that so few of the posters here are women. . .? what is the ratio of male to female here? >> I wish this canard would go away. I personally have no objection to Duffy because she's a woman, or successful -- I just don't think she's (a) very exciting or (b) *nearly* as good as some other writers around. For the record, the last five books of poems I bought (in the last month) were: U.A.Fanthorpe, +Collected Poems: 1978-2003+ Alison Flett, +Whit Lassyrz Ur Inty+ Kathleen Jamie, +Mr and Mrs Scotland Are Dead+ Lydia Robb, +Last Tango With Magritte+ Libby Houston, +Cover of Darkness: Selected Poems 1961-1998+ I also bought five back issues of the broadsheet +Poetry Scotland+, as I wanted to see what Lydia Robb had been doing. NONE of this, incidentally, would have been available in the two chain booksellers in Loughborough where I live, W.H.Smiths or Ottakers, which was dave bircumshaw's point -- *not* that people aren't buying poetry, but that with the demise of the small independent bookseller in the UK, you have to get poetry elsewhere -- off the Web, via amazon/abebooks, word of mouth recommendation, reviews, whatever. It's no longer simply sitting there waiting for you to pick it up. I wish this didn't look so polemic -- it just seems to be the case that these were the poets who've excited me most recently. I wasn't going out of my way to *ignore* male poets. << Alan Parker faults Olds for her "default of emotion" ... I must be misunderstanding what he says, because he can't be saying that she is too emotional, too "functional with feeling" to be a great poet . . . >> I don't know Olds' work well enough to make any sensible comment, but I have to say that none of the examples of her poetry posted to the list made me want to rush out and buy her work. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Sep 29 06:50:39 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:50:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B76@mail.emerson.edu> <004501c5c4a5$d5d06720$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> Message-ID: <003701c5c4e3$a22c4e00$73b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > We don't denigrate leading male poets? > I'm the only one who does, Mole. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 29 07:22:55 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:22:55 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B76@mail.emerson.edu><004501c5c4a5$d5d06720$6901a8c0@OldMoleExpress> <003701c5c4e3$a22c4e00$73b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <007e01c5c4e8$247b14f0$84078b56@Robin> > > We don't denigrate leading male poets? > > > I'm the only one who does, Mole. > > --Bob G. Well, I'd be happy to denigrate the current UK poet laureate, Andrew Motion. [Actually, I wouldn't -- I find his poetry so tedious, I simply can't pay enough attention to it to it to slag it off.] Even Carol Anne Duffy would have been a better choice than Motion. My personal choice (which as he's a male no doubt shows my chauvinist prejudices) would have been Derrick Wallcott, but he was a coloured colonial, obviously no way were they going to pick him. I'd have listed U.A.Fanthorpe as second choice, with Tony Harrison third, though the chances of a New Labour government appointing a radically left poet were obviously zilch. (Sorry, Bob, no non-burstnorm names cropped up in my personal frame.) They do these things better in Scotland -- or was it that simply there wasn't an alternative candidate to Edwin Morgan? I could easily list the reasons why Eddie ought to have been ruled out, but sometimes the good do win, even in the poetry success&admiration stakes. Robin (Anyway, how come nobody's mentioned Tom Lynch? Now *there's* an accessible US American poet who's both witty, devastating, and worth reading. AND a nice person. Is there a prejudice against undertakers? R.) From amparker at davidson.edu Thu Sep 29 08:14:23 2005 From: amparker at davidson.edu (Parker, Alan Michael) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:14:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] No defaulting on Olds Message-ID: Hi. I'm not taking on Olds for being emotional, nor am I suggesting that women default to emotion. Instead, I think that in the poem I cited, she knows what she's feeling before she reaches the ending, which makes the ending disingenuous and not "discovered." AMP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 29 11:00:22 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:00:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy saves poetry Message-ID: <19b.3d58eada.306d5b86@aol.com> Bill, is this how you rate/rank authors? Surely you must know a few very good poets that can hardly give away their books. Seems like I remember picking up a couple of your samizdat-like pamphlets that looked as though they were published at Kinkos. Nothing wrong with that...commendable in fact...but it's a far cry from citing book sales numbers as a mark of literary merit. I don't harbor the notion that one can't be popular and be good...but there far too many examples of popular trash and of a fashion fading away quickly for one to try to make a case for 'popular=good'. Finnegan In a message dated 9/28/2005 2:44:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, William_Knott at emerson.edu writes: One writer who can bring in a wider audience, though, is Carol Ann Duffy. The Manchester-based poet and playwright tops the current poetry chart with her most famous work, The World's Wife, with her latest collection, Rapture (also Picador), in fourth place after less than a week in the shops. 1. THE WORLD'S WIFE, Carol Ann Duffy (Picador, 033037222X -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 29 12:44:46 2005 From: hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk (gbemi tijani-mst) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:44:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 53 In-Reply-To: <200509291600.j8TG04M4003215@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20050929164446.53202.qmail@web26002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> 29/09/2005 re .Edwin Morgan -Scotland's poet laureate & Dannie Abse-please accept my apology for the eratta-and THANKS immensely to Robin Hamilton for his swift and rich response regarding these terrible mistakes ...In'm glad that he was also able to buttress the fecundity of these writers and polyvalent poets by uploading one of Edwin Morgan's works...You 're actually building readers like us who have been enormously impacted when we were reading poetry beyond the school set books.I 'm just profoudly buoyed by this literary rescue. May Poetry news continue to be an online oasis of all that poetry stands for ..ALL LOVE AND RESPECT -GBEMI TIJANI MST new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu You can reach the person managing the list at new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: poetic compassion-neglect will ruin world souls (Robin Hamilton) 2. Re: Duffy and Olds (Robin Hamilton) 3. Re: Duffy and Olds (Bob Grumman) 4. Re: Duffy and Olds (Robin Hamilton) 5. No defaulting on Olds (Parker, Alan Michael) 6. Re: Carol Ann Duffy saves poetry (JforJames at aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:17:39 +0100 From: "Robin Hamilton" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetic compassion-neglect will ruin world souls To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <005001c5c4df$068ca980$84078b56 at Robin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: gbemi tijani-mst Re: (Prof TONY LOPEZ) << the diverse topics depict poetic sensibilities and triumphs almost comparable to John Updike,Edward Morgan in their miscellany. I 'm also buoyed that his creative output transcends the poetry just like Danie Absie in the UK and Edward Morgan of Scotland authored miscellaneously. His profile indicated big awards from SOA-Society of authors in the UK. >> Does this Edward Morgan poet figure bear any relation to Scotland's poet laureate, Edwin Morgan? (Also, is "Danie Absie" a cover-name for Dannie Abse?) I draw attention to this as if anyone attempts to google <<"Edward Morgan" poet>>, they may get some odd answers. There are 69,700 google hits for Edwin Morgan (23,200 for Dannie Abse), so I imagine there will be quite a bit of his poetry available on the Web. Here's one poem ("Cinquevala"). Robin Cinquevalli Edwin Morgan Cinquevalli is falling, falling. The shining trapeze kicks and flirts free, solo performer at last. The sawdust puffs up with a thump, settles on a tangle of broken limbs. St Petersburg screams and leans. His pulse flickers with the gas-jets. He lives. Cinquevalli has a therapy. In his hospital bed, in his hospital chair he holds a ball, lightly, lets it roll round his hand, or grips it tight, gauging its weight and resistance, begins to balance it, to feel its life attached to his by will and knowledge, invisible strings that only he can see. He throws it from hand to hand, always different, always the same, always different, always the same. His muscles learn to think, his arms grow very strong. Cinquevalli in sepia looks at me from an old postcard: bundle of enigmas. Half faun, half military man; almond eyes, curly hair, conventional moustache; tights, and a tunic loaded with embroideries, tassels, chains, fringes; hand on hip with a large signet-ring winking at the camera but a bull neck and shoulders and a cannon-ball at his elbow as he stands by the posing pedestal; half reluctant, half truculent, half handsome, half absurd, but let me see you forget him: not to be done. Cinquevalli is a juggler. In a thousand theatres, in every continent, he is the best, the greatest. After eight years perfecting he can balance one billiard ball on another billiard ball on top of a cue on top of a third billiard ball in a wine glass held in his mouth. To those who say the balls are waxed, or flattened, he patiently explains the trick will only work because the spheres are absolutely true. There is no deception in him. He is true. Cinquevalli is juggling with a bowler, a walking-stick, a cigar, a coin. Who foresees? How to please. The last time round, the bowler flies to his head, the stick sticks in his hand, the cigar jumps into his mouth, the coin lands on his foot - ah, but is kicked into his eye and held there as the miraculous monocle without which the portrait would be incomplete. Cinquevalli is practising. He sits in his dressing-room talking to some friends, at the same time writing a letter with one hand and with the other juggling four balls. His friends think of demons, but 'You could do all this,' he says, sealing the letter with a billiard ball. Cinquevalli is on the high wire in Odessa. The roof cracks, he is falling, falling into the audience, a woman breaks his fall, he cracks her like a flea, but lives. Cinquevalli broods in his armchair in Brixton Road. He reads in the paper about the shells whining at Passchendaele, imagines the mud and the dead. He goes to the window and wonders through that dark evening what is happening in Poland where he was born. His neighbours call him a German spy. 'Kestner, Paul Kestner, that's his name!' 'Keep Kestner out of the British music-hall!' He frowns; it is cold; his fingers seem stiff and old. Cinquevalli tosses a plate of soup and twirls it on his forefinger; not a drop spills. He laughs, and well may he laugh who does that. The astonished table breathe again, laugh too, think the world a spinning thing that spills, for a moment, no drop. Cinquevalli's coffin sways through Brixton only a few months before the Armistice. Like some trick they cannot get off the ground it seems to burden the shuffling bearers, all their arms cross-juggle that displaced person, that man of balance, of strength, of delights and marvels, in his unsteady box at last into the earth. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:40:54 +0100 From: "Robin Hamilton" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <006301c5c4e2$47674390$84078b56 at Robin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" From: "William Knott" << . . . considering how leading women poets like Duffy and Olds are denigrated so often on this forum, it's no surprise that so few of the posters here are women. . .? what is the ratio of male to female here? >> I wish this canard would go away. I personally have no objection to Duffy because she's a woman, or successful -- I just don't think she's (a) very exciting or (b) *nearly* as good as some other writers around. For the record, the last five books of poems I bought (in the last month) were: U.A.Fanthorpe, +Collected Poems: 1978-2003+ Alison Flett, +Whit Lassyrz Ur Inty+ Kathleen Jamie, +Mr and Mrs Scotland Are Dead+ Lydia Robb, +Last Tango With Magritte+ Libby Houston, +Cover of Darkness: Selected Poems 1961-1998+ I also bought five back issues of the broadsheet +Poetry Scotland+, as I wanted to see what Lydia Robb had been doing. NONE of this, incidentally, would have been available in the two chain booksellers in Loughborough where I live, W.H.Smiths or Ottakers, which was dave bircumshaw's point -- *not* that people aren't buying poetry, but that with the demise of the small independent bookseller in the UK, you have to get poetry elsewhere -- off the Web, via amazon/abebooks, word of mouth recommendation, reviews, whatever. It's no longer simply sitting there waiting for you to pick it up. I wish this didn't look so polemic -- it just seems to be the case that these were the poets who've excited me most recently. I wasn't going out of my way to *ignore* male poets. << Alan Parker faults Olds for her "default of emotion" ... I must be misunderstanding what he says, because he can't be saying that she is too emotional, too "functional with feeling" to be a great poet . . . >> I don't know Olds' work well enough to make any sensible comment, but I have to say that none of the examples of her poetry posted to the list made me want to rush out and buy her work. Robin ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:50:39 -0400 From: "Bob Grumman" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <003701c5c4e3$a22c4e00$73b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response > We don't denigrate leading male poets? > I'm the only one who does, Mole. --Bob G. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:22:55 +0100 From: "Robin Hamilton" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <007e01c5c4e8$247b14f0$84078b56 at Robin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > We don't denigrate leading male poets? > > > I'm the only one who does, Mole. > > --Bob G. Well, I'd be happy to denigrate the current UK poet laureate, Andrew Motion. [Actually, I wouldn't -- I find his poetry so tedious, I simply can't pay enough attention to it to it to slag it off.] Even Carol Anne Duffy would have been a better choice than Motion. My personal choice (which as he's a male no doubt shows my chauvinist prejudices) would have been Derrick Wallcott, but he was a coloured colonial, obviously no way were they going to pick him. I'd have listed U.A.Fanthorpe as second choice, with Tony Harrison third, though the chances of a New Labour government appointing a radically left poet were obviously zilch. (Sorry, Bob, no non-burstnorm names cropped up in my personal frame.) They do these things better in Scotland -- or was it that simply there wasn't an alternative candidate to Edwin Morgan? I could easily list the reasons why Eddie ought to have been ruled out, but sometimes the good do win, even in the poetry success&admiration stakes. Robin (Anyway, how come nobody's mentioned Tom Lynch? Now *there's* an accessible US American poet who's both witty, devastating, and worth reading. AND a nice person. Is there a prejudice against undertakers? R.) ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:14:23 -0400 From: "Parker, Alan Michael" Subject: [New-Poetry] No defaulting on Olds To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi. I'm not taking on Olds for being emotional, nor am I suggesting that women default to emotion. Instead, I think that in the poem I cited, she knows what she's feeling before she reaches the ending, which makes the ending disingenuous and not "discovered." AMP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050929/24822f9b/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:00:22 EDT From: JforJames at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carol Ann Duffy saves poetry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Message-ID: <19b.3d58eada.306d5b86 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill, is this how you rate/rank authors? Surely you must know a few very good poets that can hardly give away their books. Seems like I remember picking up a couple of your samizdat-like pamphlets that looked as though they were published at Kinkos. Nothing wrong with that...commendable in fact...but it's a far cry from citing book sales numbers as a mark of literary merit. I don't harbor the notion that one can't be popular and be good...but there far too many examples of popular trash and of a fashion fading away quickly for one to try to make a case for 'popular=good'. Finnegan In a message dated 9/28/2005 2:44:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, William_Knott at emerson.edu writes: One writer who can bring in a wider audience, though, is Carol Ann Duffy. The Manchester-based poet and playwright tops the current poetry chart with her most famous work, The World's Wife, with her latest collection, Rapture (also Picador), in fourth place after less than a week in the shops. 1. THE WORLD'S WIFE, Carol Ann Duffy (Picador, 033037222X -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050929/db77045d/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 53 ****************************************** --------------------------------- How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 29 12:57:43 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] decline of the west In-Reply-To: <19b.3d58eada.306d5b86@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050929165743.82925.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> maybe Spengler or Nietzsche were right after all. I decline to be a weather prophet and certainly reading the thoughts of the anointed ones of the past is only a temporary weather vane. At least I got it right in the Guardian letter, the lake has filled and filled beyond brimming, teeming with corpses, alligators, reef sharks, nodules of wisdom and the flotation gallery of great thinkers whose thoughts have been encapsulated in our anthologies then spat out by the West. I saw it in my dreams (how can you visualise the drowned body of a child, bloated with putrid swamp water and half-eaten by alligators...) or rather nightmares because I have very vivid, apocalyptic, decline of the west nightmares. educating rita this time, the gridlock did for them. Unsurprisingly, really, since the mass hysteria envisaged in my dream is now a reality. The damage was only slight, slighter than predicted. Power stations blew up, 675,000 people were without electricity, a mere bagatelle really. A terrible atom bomb of a dream has exploded, a Pandora's Box maybe. When I turn on TV they talk about the latest area to implode, but they haven't noticed the correlation, not yet anyway. Every time I say something, (its a dark prophetic dream, the mewings of a child falling through an eternity of swamp water into darker and darker shoals of reef sharks but, predictably, they're not listening.) it happens. Your looking at Albrecht Duerer's etching of the Knight, Death and the Devil but it doesn't make sense. At the bottom of the picture you notice a dark blotch which has started spreading. If you turn it around in a mirror, one of those fairground mirrors, you see an eternity, a nightmarishly large shoal of reef sharks and they are reclaiming what they lost in the Jurassic era and they are also growing bigger all the time. They are selling ice creams, passing the time by wearing silly hats, playing the harmonica, games of dice and watching the bubbles on the lake of fire (the one provided by the Great Architect for the immolation of Bush and Blair) pop with a pleasing and trite pop. But the bubbles of the corpses of Bush and Blair will be all the more pleasing, trite and the reef sharks will increase their prices by 10p for a 99 when the crowd comes to watch the immolation of Death and the Devil. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Sep 29 16:14:38 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:14:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 53 References: <20050929164446.53202.qmail@web26002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <020001c5c532$6cd719c0$84078b56@Robin> << THANKS immensely to Robin Hamilton for his swift and rich response regarding these terrible mistakes ...In'm glad that he was also able to buttress the fecundity of these writers and polyvalent poets by uploading one of Edwin Morgan's works... >> I hate to say this, Gbemi, but while I think Edwin Morgan's work is brilliant, I think about everything Dannie Abse wrote is (excuse my french) a load of total shite. Abse's reputation rests on a novel he wrote years ago -- +Cider For Rosie+. As a poet, he sucks, and comparing his work with Edwin Morgan's is comparing apples with oranges. Sorry, mate. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Sep 29 17:50:22 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:50:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] No defaulting on Olds References: Message-ID: <00b101c5c53f$cb1045e0$73b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> No defaulting on Olds Hi. I'm not taking on Olds for being emotional, nor am I suggesting that women default to emotion. Instead, I think that in the poem I cited, she knows what she's feeling before she reaches the ending, which makes the ending disingenuous and not "discovered." AMP I would agree that she knows what she's feeling. Seems to me she wishes she could help her father, and despairs because she can't, and has written a (quite effective) poem about it. I have to admit that I never thought a poem ought to discover something or that not discovering would be disingenuous, but I find that an interesting line to take. I've always thought a poem ought to be a new route to the always known. (Aside to the stasguards at New-Poetry, I don't believe new routes can only be fashioned through the use of new poetic devices.) --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 30 03:18:08 2005 From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:18:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529B76@mail.emerson.edu> <006301c5c4e2$47674390$84078b56@Robin> Message-ID: <002c01c5c58f$1e4a2ce0$4ee8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v> >I also bought five back issues of the broadsheet +Poetry Scotland+, as I wanted to see what Lydia Robb had been doing. NONE of this, incidentally, would have been available in the two chain booksellers in Loughborough where I live, W.H.Smiths or Ottakers, which was dave bircumshaw's point -- *not* that people aren't buying poetry, but that with the demise of the small independent bookseller in the UK, you have to get poetry elsewhere -- off the Web, via amazon/abebooks, word of mouth recommendation, reviews, whatever. It's no longer simply sitting there waiting for you to pick it< It that, in the nutsell, I mean shell, is it. The space on the shelves for poetry in the chain booksellers is small and getting smaller, as poetry, although does sell, occupies shelf-space too long in doing so, and the proportion of that space for new poetry is even smaller. And what happens is that a few poets, like Duffy or Armitage (a male, please note), who aim for a poetry-lite kind of style, a recognisable formulaic easily digestible product, squeeze out everything else. In its smaller way, it's a kind of poetry that performs the techniques of mass-marketing, being predictable, the punter is confirmed in their expectations through the act of purchase. Best Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Duffy and Olds > From: "William Knott" > > << > . . . considering how leading women poets > like Duffy and Olds are denigrated so often > on this forum, it's no surprise that so few > of the posters here are women. . .? what > is the ratio of male to female here? > >> > > I wish this canard would go away. I personally have no objection to Duffy > because she's a woman, or successful -- I just don't think she's (a) very > exciting or (b) *nearly* as good as some other writers around. > > For the record, the last five books of poems I bought (in the last month) > were: > > U.A.Fanthorpe, +Collected Poems: 1978-2003+ > Alison Flett, +Whit Lassyrz Ur Inty+ > Kathleen Jamie, +Mr and Mrs Scotland Are Dead+ > Lydia Robb, +Last Tango With Magritte+ > Libby Houston, +Cover of Darkness: Selected Poems 1961-1998+ > > I also bought five back issues of the broadsheet +Poetry Scotland+, as I > wanted to see what Lydia Robb had been doing. NONE of this, incidentally, > would have been available in the two chain booksellers in Loughborough where > I live, W.H.Smiths or Ottakers, which was dave bircumshaw's point -- *not* > that people aren't buying poetry, but that with the demise of the small > independent bookseller in the UK, you have to get poetry elsewhere -- off > the Web, via amazon/abebooks, word of mouth recommendation, reviews, > whatever. It's no longer simply sitting there waiting for you to pick it > up. > > I wish this didn't look so polemic -- it just seems to be the case that > these were the poets who've excited me most recently. I wasn't going out of > my way to *ignore* male poets. > > << > Alan Parker faults Olds for her "default of emotion" > ... I must be misunderstanding what he > says, because he can't be saying that she > is too emotional, too "functional with feeling" > to be a great poet . . . > >> > > I don't know Olds' work well enough to make any sensible comment, but I have > to say that none of the examples of her poetry posted to the list made me > want to rush out and buy her work. > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 04:31:32 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:31:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 53 In-Reply-To: <020001c5c532$6cd719c0$84078b56@Robin> References: <20050929164446.53202.qmail@web26002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <020001c5c532$6cd719c0$84078b56@Robin> Message-ID: uh, you must be confusing Ash on a Young Man's Sleeve with Laurie Lee's Cider With Rosie. Admittedly the two are grouped together frequently. Give old Laurie Lee his due here :-) Roger On 9/29/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > << > THANKS immensely to Robin Hamilton for his swift and rich response > regarding these terrible mistakes ...In'm glad that he was also able to > buttress the fecundity of these writers and polyvalent poets by uploading > one of Edwin Morgan's works... > >> > > I hate to say this, Gbemi, but while I think Edwin Morgan's work is > brilliant, I think about everything Dannie Abse wrote is (excuse my french) > a load of total shite. > > Abse's reputation rests on a novel he wrote years ago -- +Cider For Rosie+. > > As a poet, he sucks, and comparing his work with Edwin Morgan's is comparing > apples with oranges. > > Sorry, mate. > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Sep 30 04:42:42 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:42:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 53 References: <20050929164446.53202.qmail@web26002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><020001c5c532$6cd719c0$84078b56@Robin> Message-ID: <001b01c5c59a$eca97090$36888c56@Robin> > uh, you must be confusing Ash on a Young Man's Sleeve with Laurie > Lee's Cider With Rosie. Admittedly the two are grouped together > frequently. Give old Laurie Lee his due here :-) > > Roger Oops, sorry, yeah -- mea culpa. :-( Robin From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 30 13:23:05 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:23:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Santayana slagging Popular poets Message-ID: <156.5a73a2dd.306ece79@aol.com> Popular poets are the parish priests of the Muse, retailing her ancient divinations to a long since converted public. --George Santayana (Essays in Literary Criticism) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 30 14:55:19 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:55:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] CT are event, Wallace Stevens Birthday Bash, tomorrow night Message-ID: <96.30ed2fcf.306ee417@aol.com> 10th Annual Wallace Stevens Birthday Bash Saturday October 1st, 6:30 to 10:00 p.m. Hartford Public Library, 500 Main Street, Hartford CT 06013 (Parking Lot entry on Arch Street) Featured Speaker: John Taggert, "Unveiling / Marianne Moore -- and Wallace Stevens" John Taggert, emeritus professor of English, Shippensburg University, will explore the singular poetic and personal relationship between these two great American poets. Taggert's most recent book is Pastorelles (Flood Editions) , which includes a poem inspired by 118 Westerly Terrace, Hartford, the former home of Wallace Stevens. Among Taggert's many other books of poetry are Loop (Sun & Moon Press) and Standing Wave (Lost Roads). SUNY Press published, Remaining in Light, his study of the painter Edward Hopper. hors d'oeuvres ~ wine ~ champagne ~ birthday cake Tickets: $30 / $55 per couple available at the door Hartford Public Library 500 Main St. Hartford CT 06103 Sponsored by Hartford Friends & Enemies of Wallace Stevens and The Connecticut Center for the Book at Hartford Public Library. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Sep 30 15:13:26 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:13:26 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vonnegut Message-ID: <009901c5c5f3$08d44120$b9aa3852@ANNY> Just read on Tom Beckett's Shadows Within Shadows http://worderos.blogspot.com/2005/09/kurt-vonnegut.html Kurt Vonnegut I picked up Kurt Vonnegut's new book today. It's called A Man without a Country (Seven Stories Press, 2005). Check out this passage: If you want to really hurt your parents, and you don't have the nerve to be gay, the least you can do is go into the arts. I'm not kidding. The arts are not a way to make a living. They are a very human way of making life more bearable. Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possibly can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome My Bror is sick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Sep 30 15:23:29 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:23:29 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] kari edwards Message-ID: <00a501c5c5f4$7077f910$b9aa3852@ANNY> >From kari edwards new blog: transsubMUTATION: http://transdada3.blogspot.com/2005/09/other-counter.html the other counter a ghost piece of paper passes time collects another passes passion collects collects naming a familiar engages in concerned about expection about duplications exceeded by extensions passes passing extension duplications of shapeless reiteration past oblivion past the familiar past reiteration and memory I remember everyone's message everything passion packed in asbestos integrated vacillation some call a vacation something that pleases corners and repeats I am near the back I am the back near a corner repeating myself behind myself now nearly now violence now a corner from start to from slaughter to another end starts the next repeating someone keeps stomping a commons wondering perhaps theoretical perhaps technical maybe a fiat destination both empathic and dead both both being anonymous sacrilege and carnage guilty of calm guilty of guilt and clinging aloft naked against speaking anonymous repeating concrete -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome My Bror is sick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 17:03:08 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:03:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: David Kirby Message-ID: <731bb17a0509301403i669fb7eag258ea01a919ef54f@mail.gmail.com> *DEAR DERRIDA* David Kirby My new grad-school roommates and I are attending our first real lecture, which has gone okay, we guess, since none of us understands it, when one of our professors rises, a somewhat prissy fellow with a mild speech impediment, and says he takes issue with the speaker's tone, which he characterizes as one of "sar, sar," and here he raises his voice a little, "sar, sar, sar," and wipes his mouth with a handkerchief, "sar," and turns red and screams, "sar, sar, sar?DAMN EET!?sarcasm!" The four of us look at each other as if to say, Hmmmm, nothing like this at the cow colleges we went to! After that, whenever we'd spill our coffee or get a sock stuck in the vacuum cleaner, we'd look at the mess ruefully and say, "da, da, da?SARCASM!?damn eet!" Our lives were pretty tightly sealed, and if we weren't in class or the library, either we spent our time in wordplay or cooking: what with girlfriends and passersby, we always had a pot of water boiling on the back of the stove (It's like you're ready to deliver babies, somebody said once), either for spaghetti or sausages, though one evening Chris, the English student from England, came by for a sausage supper, and after he left, we ran up on the roof to pelt him with water balloons, though when we did, he fell down as though he'd been shot, and one of us said, Jeez, what's wrong with Chris, and somebody else said, You know, Chris eats nothing *but* sausage, and a third party said, Hmmmm, maybe we ought to vary our diet a little. And that was our life: school, the boiled messes we made on that stove, and hanging around that crummy apartment talking about, I don't know, Dr. Mueller's arm, I guess, which hung uselessly by his side for reasons no one fathomed?polio, maybe, or some other childhood disease?though Paul said he thought it was made of wood. Can't be made of wood, said Michael, you can see his hand at the end of it, to which Paul replied, Yeah, but you can have a wooden arm and a real hand, can't you? And that was what our life was like, because mainly we just sat around and speculated like crazy while the snow piled up outside, so much so that by the time spring came, I'd had it, so I moved out of there and in with Grant and Brian and Poor Tom, who were philosophy students but also genuine bad asses, believe it or not, because at that time you more or less had to be an existentialist, i.e., tough, and not a deconstructionist, which was a few years down the road yet and which would have left everyone paralyzed, since all texts eventually cancel themselves out. Of the new roomies, I hit it off best with Grant, who became one of the big-brother types I seemed to be looking for at that period in my life, and in fact he rescued me on more than one occasion, such as the time I was talking to a local girl outside a bar called Jazz City and her three brothers decided to "teach me a lesson" and would have if Grant hadn't punched one of them across the hood of a parked car, or the night he and I were in this other place where a biker gang called Quantrill's Raiders hung out and into which wandered a well-dressed couple so unaware of their surroundings that they asked the bartender to please make them some hot toddies, which set everybody to laughing, only the Quantrills decided we were laughing at them and jumped up to "teach us a lesson" and would have, too, if Grant had not thrown a table at them and dragged me out of there to dive behind some garbage cans and choke on our own laughter while the drunk, fucked-up bikers howled and swore and punched each other since they couldn't punch us. All this was therapy, I figured, since grad school was stressful enough to send three people I knew to the clinic with barbiturate overdoses (two made it, one didn't), and I'm not even listing here all the divorces I know of that were directly attributable to that constant pressure to be the best, be publishable, hireable, lovable, that came from professors and sweethearts and parents but mainly from ourselves, as though each of us were two people, a good and capable slave, on the one hand, and, on the other, a psychotic master who either locked us up with our pots of boiling water or sent us out to dance with the devil in the streets of Baltimore. That year magi appeared from the east: Jacques Lacan, Tzvetan Todorov, Roland Barthes, and Jacques Derrida brought their Saussurean strategies to the Hopkins conference on "The Language of Criticism and the Sciences of Man," where they told us that all language is code and thus separate from reality, and therefore everything is a text as long as there is nothing more than this half-conscious linguistic interplay between perceiver and perceived, which is another way of saying that language is the only reality or at least the only one that counts. As different as these thinkers are, each was telling us that there is no us: that cultural structures or the media or Western thought or the unconscious mind or economic systems make us what we are or what we seem to be, since, in fact, we are not, which isn't such bad news, if you think about it, because it means we don't have to take ourselves so seriously. Derrida and company make it impossible for anyone today to read a book as they had before, but we didn't know that then. Grant didn't, that's for sure; four years later, he put a gun in his mouth and blew the back of his skull off, and sometimes it makes me sad when I think of how long it takes for new ideas to catch on, because, yeah, deconstruction might have saved us. from *The House of Blue Light* (LSU Press, 2000) Jeff Newberry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Sep 30 17:36:11 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:36:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: David Kirby References: <731bb17a0509301403i669fb7eag258ea01a919ef54f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008b01c5c606$fa3a37f0$8db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I was thinking I liked this poem for some reason--the stanza form worked, the New York school near-prose worked. But, yikes, even if Grant in real life killed himself, his suicide here is a horrible done-what-seems-a-thousand-times cheap grab for High Sardonicism. The poem would be so much better without it, it seems to me. --Bob G. DEAR DERRIDA David Kirby My new grad-school roommates and I are attending our first real lecture, which has gone okay, we guess, since none of us understands it, when one of our professors rises, a somewhat prissy fellow with a mild speech impediment, and says he takes issue with the speaker's tone, which he characterizes as one of "sar, sar," and here he raises his voice a little, "sar, sar, sar," and wipes his mouth with a handkerchief, "sar," and turns red and screams, "sar, sar, sar?DAMN EET!?sarcasm!" The four of us look at each other as if to say, Hmmmm, nothing like this at the cow colleges we went to! After that, whenever we'd spill our coffee or get a sock stuck in the vacuum cleaner, we'd look at the mess ruefully and say, "da, da, da?SARCASM!?damn eet!" Our lives were pretty tightly sealed, and if we weren't in class or the library, either we spent our time in wordplay or cooking: what with girlfriends and passersby, we always had a pot of water boiling on the back of the stove (It's like you're ready to deliver babies, somebody said once), either for spaghetti or sausages, though one evening Chris, the English student from England, came by for a sausage supper, and after he left, we ran up on the roof to pelt him with water balloons, though when we did, he fell down as though he'd been shot, and one of us said, Jeez, what's wrong with Chris, and somebody else said, You know, Chris eats nothing but sausage, and a third party said, Hmmmm, maybe we ought to vary our diet a little. And that was our life: school, the boiled messes we made on that stove, and hanging around that crummy apartment talking about, I don't know, Dr. Mueller's arm, I guess, which hung uselessly by his side for reasons no one fathomed?polio, maybe, or some other childhood disease?though Paul said he thought it was made of wood. Can't be made of wood, said Michael, you can see his hand at the end of it, to which Paul replied, Yeah, but you can have a wooden arm and a real hand, can't you? And that was what our life was like, because mainly we just sat around and speculated like crazy while the snow piled up outside, so much so that by the time spring came, I'd had it, so I moved out of there and in with Grant and Brian and Poor Tom, who were philosophy students but also genuine bad asses, believe it or not, because at that time you more or less had to be an existentialist, i.e., tough, and not a deconstructionist, which was a few years down the road yet and which would have left everyone paralyzed, since all texts eventually cancel themselves out. Of the new roomies, I hit it off best with Grant, who became one of the big-brother types I seemed to be looking for at that period in my life, and in fact he rescued me on more than one occasion, such as the time I was talking to a local girl outside a bar called Jazz City and her three brothers decided to "teach me a lesson" and would have if Grant hadn't punched one of them across the hood of a parked car, or the night he and I were in this other place where a biker gang called Quantrill's Raiders hung out and into which wandered a well-dressed couple so unaware of their surroundings that they asked the bartender to please make them some hot toddies, which set everybody to laughing, only the Quantrills decided we were laughing at them and jumped up to "teach us a lesson" and would have, too, if Grant had not thrown a table at them and dragged me out of there to dive behind some garbage cans and choke on our own laughter while the drunk, fucked-up bikers howled and swore and punched each other since they couldn't punch us. All this was therapy, I figured, since grad school was stressful enough to send three people I knew to the clinic with barbiturate overdoses (two made it, one didn't), and I'm not even listing here all the divorces I know of that were directly attributable to that constant pressure to be the best, be publishable, hireable, lovable, that came from professors and sweethearts and parents but mainly from ourselves, as though each of us were two people, a good and capable slave, on the one hand, and, on the other, a psychotic master who either locked us up with our pots of boiling water or sent us out to dance with the devil in the streets of Baltimore. That year magi appeared from the east: Jacques Lacan, Tzvetan Todorov, Roland Barthes, and Jacques Derrida brought their Saussurean strategies to the Hopkins conference on "The Language of Criticism and the Sciences of Man," where they told us that all language is code and thus separate from reality, and therefore everything is a text as long as there is nothing more than this half-conscious linguistic interplay between perceiver and perceived, which is another way of saying that language is the only reality or at least the only one that counts. As different as these thinkers are, each was telling us that there is no us: that cultural structures or the media or Western thought or the unconscious mind or economic systems make us what we are or what we seem to be, since, in fact, we are not, which isn't such bad news, if you think about it, because it means we don't have to take ourselves so seriously. Derrida and company make it impossible for anyone today to read a book as they had before, but we didn't know that then. Grant didn't, that's for sure; four years later, he put a gun in his mouth and blew the back of his skull off, and sometimes it makes me sad when I think of how long it takes for new ideas to catch on, because, yeah, deconstruction might have saved us. from The House of Blue Light (LSU Press, 2000) Jeff Newberry -- "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." --Miguel de Unamuno Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 19:21:47 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:21:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vonnegut In-Reply-To: <009901c5c5f3$08d44120$b9aa3852@ANNY> References: <009901c5c5f3$08d44120$b9aa3852@ANNY> Message-ID: I recognise that all too well. On 9/30/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Just read on Tom Beckett's Shadows Within Shadows > http://worderos.blogspot.com/2005/09/kurt-vonnegut.html > > Kurt Vonnegut > > > I picked up Kurt Vonnegut's new book today. It's called A Man without a > Country (Seven Stories Press, 2005). > > Check out this passage: > > If you want to really hurt your parents, and you don't have the nerve to be > gay, the least you can do is go into the arts. I'm not kidding. The arts are > not a way to make a living. They are a very human way of making life more > bearable. Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make > your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. > Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as > you possibly can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created > something. > > > ________________________________ > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > My Bror is sick > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/