From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May  1 05:25:52 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 11:25:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] palindrome
Message-ID: <001201c54e2f$c5797cf0$bb2ab750@ANNY>

>From Doctor Dictionary today:

Word of the Day for Sunday May 1, 2005

   palindrome \PAL-in-drohm\, noun:
   A  word,  phrase,  sentence,  or  verse  that  reads  the same
   backward or forward.

     A few examples:
     * Madam, I'm Adam. (Adam's first words to Eve?)
     * A  man,  a  plan,  a  canal -- Panama! (The history of the
       Panama Canal in brief.)
     * Able was I ere I saw Elba. (Napoleon's lament.)
     * Mom, Dad.
     _________________________________________________________

   Palindrome  comes  from  Greek palindromos, literally "running
   back (again)," from palin, "back, again" + dromos, "running."

Dictionary.com Entry and Pronunciation

   http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=9&q=palindrome

_____________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun May  1 10:54:47 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:54:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] palindrome
References: <001201c54e2f$c5797cf0$bb2ab750@ANNY>
Message-ID: <005701c54e5d$bb49fb00$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Is dat Tad? Si!

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 5:25 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] palindrome


  From Doctor Dictionary today:

  Word of the Day for Sunday May 1, 2005

     palindrome \PAL-in-drohm\, noun:
     A  word,  phrase,  sentence,  or  verse  that  reads  the same
     backward or forward.

       A few examples:
       * Madam, I'm Adam. (Adam's first words to Eve?)
       * A  man,  a  plan,  a  canal -- Panama! (The history of the
         Panama Canal in brief.)
       * Able was I ere I saw Elba. (Napoleon's lament.)
       * Mom, Dad.
       _________________________________________________________

     Palindrome  comes  from  Greek palindromos, literally "running
     back (again)," from palin, "back, again" + dromos, "running."

  Dictionary.com Entry and Pronunciation

     http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=9&q=palindrome

  _____________________
  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sun May  1 12:07:18 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:07:18 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Inaugural Lecture From Hell
Message-ID: <02db01c54e67$d9992ea0$fd9c9951@Robin>

<<Take one.  5-7, first cut.>>

This was mostly predicatable -- I knew before I arrived that I'd be the only one around the table who wasn't a UK Professor, either current, acting or emeritus (bar Kate who was hostessing and Rebecca, and neither sat down) ...

But to focus this bit, the star was easily Rebecca, John and Kate's latest, nine months old, who didn't get to sit down but got dandled on their knees around the table by everyone *but* me.

I think that had less to do that when I arrived, I was slightly cut and Kate might have been marginally worried that if I got to dandle Rebecca, I would accidentally drop her and bounce her latest baby's head on the floor and more to do with the way Rebecca was looking at me.

Normally, I can sucker any human child under a year simply by sporting my beard -- "Is it real?  May I tug?  Cor, it's authentic!" -- but not Rebecca.

The look of Deep Suspicion that Young Rebecca Schad gave me would have melted lead.

In twenty years' time Rebecca Schad will be ruling the world.  

Thank god by then I'll I'll be pushing up the daisies.

More anon about the Inaugrual Lecture from Hell, if anyone can bear it.

R.










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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun May  1 12:26:13 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 11:26:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mistranslation
Message-ID: <BE9A6D55.119E1%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Not that I'm tired of Villon or anything, but here's an amusement from Dean
Young--sort of a misadaptation of Pound's famous mistranslation of Li Po.



The River Merchant, Stuck in Kalamazoo, Writes His Wife a Letter During Her
Semester Abroad 

We were looking forward to being alive.
Now you new place! Me not too! Strange taste
afternoon lonely for hummingbird mouthful.
You somewhere else make everywhere else
elser. I know almost nothing about this flower
growing from my chest. Does it need dead-heading?
Only you not answer. This complete the test
of the emergency broadcast system? Definition
of the female breasts as modified sweat gland
certainly leave out curfew-breaking! Sunny melon
morning all day! Remember! In my dream, almost
get your sash off then wake of sadness. Forceful
but gentle I not girl-scaring want to explain
not like Jim explain his night in jail so
fly-around he explain other nights in jail.
No hello river in the sky then. When someone
love you, good to be afraid-making in that way? Not
nice among dumb bamboo thickets, ga-zillion
crickets not one Thelonius Monk. Ha ha
only so long. I grow cold. Soon snow
fall on the no more factory.

-- Dean Young.  *Skid*.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May  1 13:01:10 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 19:01:10 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] by Glyn Maxwell
Message-ID: <004701c54e6f$5fc4da40$f0af3252@ANNY>

"Chief Warden Atop a Piano," Glyn Maxwell
  I should like to take this opportunity
  everyone to wish you all good morning.
  Good morning. 
  I am informed by bicycle the transport
  is scheduled to depart the transport depot
  at eleven hundred hours, that's

  eleven hundred hours, which is to say
  this very morning. Please. Thank you.
  A Monday, not a Sunday,

  a Monday morning service of thanksgiving
  will take place in the corridor between
  classrooms seven and nine

  in the peacetime designation. (This is unstable.)
  At nine. Nine hundred hours. (I haven't marked it,
  I was extremely careful.)

  Further announcements will be made--beg pardon?
  A question from the floor... Well as it happens
  I can, son, yes I can.

  Young gentleman's inquiring as to whether
  I myself do play the pianoforte
  (if I might just climb down)

  to which the answer is as it happens I do.
  Well now we have some hush. I expect you know
  this little one about bluebirds?


>From The Sugar Mile.

Glyn Maxwell is the poetry editor at The New Republic, which is--as it happens--where Adam Kirsch reviewed an earlier Maxwell book, The Breakage, back in 1999.. This is his eighth collection of poems, and encompasses a long-form narrative in which the poet meets an Englishman in a Manhattan bar on September 8, 2001, and is drawn into the man's recounting of his life during the London blitz of 1940. Other poems from the collection include "Sally playing Patience" and "Robby stretching his legs," first published in The New Criterion.



___________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May  1 13:01:56 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 19:01:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] palindrome
References: <001201c54e2f$c5797cf0$bb2ab750@ANNY>
	<005701c54e5d$bb49fb00$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <005601c54e6f$7b98b930$f0af3252@ANNY>

I love it, !
  From: The Old Mole 
  Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 4:54 PM


  Is dat Tad? Si!

  Tad Richards
  www.opus40.org
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: New Poetry 
    Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 5:25 AM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] palindrome


    From Doctor Dictionary today:

    Word of the Day for Sunday May 1, 2005

       palindrome \PAL-in-drohm\, noun:
       A  word,  phrase,  sentence,  or  verse  that  reads  the same
       backward or forward.

         A few examples:
         * Madam, I'm Adam. (Adam's first words to Eve?)
         * A  man,  a  plan,  a  canal -- Panama! (The history of the
           Panama Canal in brief.)
         * Able was I ere I saw Elba. (Napoleon's lament.)
         * Mom, Dad.
         _________________________________________________________

       Palindrome  comes  from  Greek palindromos, literally "running
       back (again)," from palin, "back, again" + dromos, "running."

    Dictionary.com Entry and Pronunciation

       http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=9&q=palindrome

    _____________________
    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
    Friedrich Nietzsche 

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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sun May  1 13:14:22 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 18:14:22 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mistranslation
References: <BE9A6D55.119E1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <02fa01c54e71$381469a0$fd9c9951@Robin>

From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>

> Not that I'm tired of Villon or anything, but here's an amusement from
Dean
> Young--sort of a misadaptation of Pound's famous mistranslation of Li Po.

> The River Merchant, Stuck in Kalamazoo, Writes His Wife a Letter During
Her
> Semester Abroad

            Neat!

I once got into an argument with a student -- she was right, I was wrong -- 
over "The River Merchant's Wife" and the use of female personna figures by
male poets in Chinese and Scottish poetry.

That wasn't the wost -- the worst was when my ex-wife wife casually remarked
to me, "Look, Robin, if you could get your head together, you're perfectly
capable of identifying every serial killer in the UK, so why you seem so
obsessed with the the colour of Laura Bohannan's hair in the fifties beats
me."

        Odd, that, but ...

I was really quite *pleased* that I'd cracked why Laura was nicknamed
"Dusty".

        http://www.shaksper.net/archives/2002/1963.htm

Robin



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sun May  1 14:44:22 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 10:44:22 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] palindrome
Message-ID: <200505011722.j41HMNSX020166@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

do not let elton od!
go hang a salami! i'm a lasagna hog!

check out lydia tomkiw's palindrome poetry--

----------
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] palindrome
Date: Sun, May 1, 2005, 1:25 AM


>From Doctor Dictionary today:

Word of the Day for Sunday May 1, 2005

   palindrome \PAL-in-drohm\, noun:
   A  word,  phrase,  sentence,  or  verse  that  reads  the same
   backward or forward.

     A few examples:
     * Madam, I'm Adam. (Adam's first words to Eve?)
     * A  man,  a  plan,  a  canal -- Panama! (The history of the
       Panama Canal in brief.)
     * Able was I ere I saw Elba. (Napoleon's lament.)
     * Mom, Dad.
     _________________________________________________________

   Palindrome  comes  from  Greek palindromos, literally "running
   back (again)," from palin, "back, again" + dromos, "running."

Dictionary.com Entry and Pronunciation

   http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=9&q=palindrome
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=9&amp;q=palindrome>
_____________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From mandolin at mac.com  Sun May  1 14:58:26 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 14:58:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Der neue Papst
In-Reply-To: <019d01c54cfb$2797a8c0$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <005a01c54c95$eae59640$d9de3052@ANNY>
	<019d01c54cfb$2797a8c0$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4d75f9ce13d5413b6e1ea19ad8cfff67@mac.com>


On Apr 29, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Here's another burstnorm poem I think is terrific and don't think I've 
> posted here before:
> ?
>
>
> wOm
>
> OOn
>
> wat
>
> her
>
>
> I call this an example of a poem influenced by Cummings, directly or 
> indirectly, because of its focus on the moon and woman-as-moon, and 
> its use of infraverbal miscapitalization, particularly of o's in the 
> word, "moon"; of syllabreaks; of its using of a removed letter 
> ("c")--or added letter ("h"); and its concern with infraverbal 
> significance in general. Result: one of the most beautifully dense 
> equaphorical complexes in the language--or, to translate the 
> Grummanese, a lot of great metaphors and imagery in just 12 letters.
> ?
> Question for any who would say it's not a poem: what is it?? Could any 
> sane person say it's more like prose than poetry?? It's by Mike 
> Basinski, by the way.
> ?


What abvout neither, Bob? It's done mostly with words, like a rebus -- 
which is also neither prose nor poetry. Surely, if there can be 
complicated taxonomies within poetry, there cna be ocmplicated 
taxonomies at higher levels as well.

Mke S



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May  1 15:34:46 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:34:46 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] res ipsae loquitur
Message-ID: <007501c54e84$d4f12430$e8c93a52@ANNY>

There are some good pics on Anita Rust's blog, as usual:
http://anitarust.blogspot.com/

_________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May  1 16:33:07 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 16:33:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Der neue Papst OR Basinski's Poem
References: <005a01c54c95$eae59640$d9de3052@ANNY><019d01c54cfb$2797a8c0$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<4d75f9ce13d5413b6e1ea19ad8cfff67@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00cf01c54e8c$fbef0220$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>
> On Apr 29, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>> Here's another burstnorm poem I think is terrific and don't think I've 
>> posted here before:
>>
>>
>> wOm
>>
>> OOn
>>
>> wat
>>
>> her
>>
>>
>> I call this an example of a poem influenced by Cummings, directly or 
>> indirectly, because of its focus on the moon and woman-as-moon, and its 
>> use of infraverbal miscapitalization, particularly of o's in the word, 
>> "moon"; of syllabreaks; of its using of a removed letter ("c")--or added 
>> letter ("h"); and its concern with infraverbal significance in general. 
>> Result: one of the most beautifully dense equaphorical complexes in the 
>> language--or, to translate the Grummanese, a lot of great metaphors and 
>> imagery in just 12 letters.
>>
>> Question for any who would say it's not a poem: what is it? Could any 
>> sane person say it's more like prose than poetry? It's by Mike Basinski, 
>> by the way.
>>
>
>
> What abvout neither, Bob? It's done mostly with words, like a rebus -- 
> which is also neither prose nor poetry. Surely, if there can be 
> complicated taxonomies within poetry, there cna be ocmplicated taxonomies 
> at higher levels as well.
>
> Mke S

I was assuming a choice between prose and poetry.  The discussion started 
long ago with, "freeverse isn't poetry, it's prose," so I continued the 
dichotomy.  No reason not to have three kinds of literature but not a whole 
separate one for something like this one--which, ironically, is very 
formal--one syllable per line, which I didn't think of before.

It has nothing to do with rebuses, by the way.  A rebus has pictures that 
translate into words or syllables or letters, like a bee to represent the 
letter b.  Nothing like that here.

But you do give me a problem.  I don't know where in my scheme puzzles would 
fit.  But they don't seem important enough to merit a category of their own. 
Tentatively, I would call them informrature.  (In my taxonomy, literature is 
verbal expression mainly concerned with the expression of beauty, 
informrature verbal expression mainly concerned with the truth, or conveying 
data.)  They state some sort of truth or piece of information, in an 
entertaining way.  A piece of prose in code would be the same.  A normal 
crossword puzzle, too: these words are defined like so, and their 
definitions fit together like so.  No attempt for the solver to contemplate 
the beauty of what's revealed.

Basinski's poem expresses something intended to seem beautiful.

--Bob G. 




From tad at opus40.org  Sun May  1 17:21:57 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:21:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] palindrome
References: <200505011722.j41HMNSX020166@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <013801c54e93$d0b614c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re: [New-Poetry] palindromeIn the 70s, I won an honorable mention in New York magazine for this palindrome. It was still the Vietnam era, and the underground press era. EVO - the East Village Other - was still publishing. My palindrome was

EVO: MEDICO NEGRO JAMS MAJOR GENOCIDE MOVE

My best one though (also honorable mention - it shoudl have won) was a competition to create an apposite title/artist by changing one letter in each. Mine was "Take a Massage to Mary" by the Rolfing Stones.
Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Stroffolino 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 2:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] palindrome


  do not let elton od!
  go hang a salami! i'm a lasagna hog!

  check out lydia tomkiw's palindrome poetry--

  ----------
  From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
  To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
  Subject: [New-Poetry] palindrome
  Date: Sun, May 1, 2005, 1:25 AM



    From Doctor Dictionary today:
     
    Word of the Day for Sunday May 1, 2005

       palindrome \PAL-in-drohm\, noun:
       A  word,  phrase,  sentence,  or  verse  that  reads  the same
       backward or forward.

         A few examples:
         * Madam, I'm Adam. (Adam's first words to Eve?)
         * A  man,  a  plan,  a  canal -- Panama! (The history of the
           Panama Canal in brief.)
         * Able was I ere I saw Elba. (Napoleon's lament.)
         * Mom, Dad.
         _________________________________________________________

       Palindrome  comes  from  Greek palindromos, literally "running
       back (again)," from palin, "back, again" + dromos, "running."

    Dictionary.com Entry and Pronunciation

       http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=9&q=palindrome <http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=9&amp;q=palindrome> 
    _____________________
    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
    Friedrich Nietzsche 
    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





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From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun May  1 20:51:41 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 01:51:41 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords
In-Reply-To: <021001c54de8$3b6ae5e0$fd9c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <ECOWS04MhKvsmDYzHHw00052005@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>

Ah, I have no comment to make anent Tom on Dunbar; wasn't that keen on
Grieve hisself, personally, but do you not consider Sorley MacLean & Norman
MacCaig to be children of macdiarmid in a non-trivial sense?

P  

> Scanned from a Penguin Anthology.
> 
> I hate to say this, but Tom Scott's book on Dunbar was about 
> the most gut-wrenchingly ludicrous book on Dunbar after 
> Rachal Annan Taylor's thirties fiasco that I ever encountered.
> 
> Mind you, all the second-generation Children-of-McDiarmid, 
> for all of me, could all have been dumped into a toureen of 
> soup and boiled up for kaile (with the exception of Robert 
> Garrioch) and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.
> 
> I have a particular ... distaste ... for Alexander Scott.  
> But that's personal.
> 
>             :-(
> 
> Robin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sun May  1 20:59:12 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 20:59:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
Message-ID: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>

This is old, but I came across it while fooling around at
NPR.org<http://NPR.org>tonight.
 I like some of what Brinkley says, and I'm glad to see the inclusion of 
Jeffers, one of my favorite poets. I must admit, however, that I'm suprised 
that Plath doesn't make the list. Ginberg's "Howl" is too histronic for my 
tastes, and I think that Hughes wrote much better poems than "The Negro 
Speaks of Rivers." Frost wrote better than "Stopping By Woods" as well. And 
Gertrude Stein wrote primarily garbage--what is she doing on this list?
 Lists like this seem only to make people angry, so let's hear it. Who's not 
on this list? Air your politics! Air your grievances! Air your artistic 
fiefdoms!
 Ducking behind a rock and guarding the staas,
 Jeff Newberry
  Replay: Poets and Poetry

Top 15 American Poems of the Century

 Weekend Edition - Sunday, December 26, 1999 ? Commentator and historian 
Douglas Brinkley put together a panel of distinguished poets and professors 
to pick the top 15 American poems of the century. Brinkley is distinguished 
professor of history and director of the Eisenhower Center at the
Universityof New
Orleans. Here is his list:

 Number 1: T.S. Eliot, "The Wasteland" 

Number 2: Hart Crane, "The Bridge" 

Number 3: Allen Ginsburg, "Howl" 

Number 4: Langston Hughes, "The Negro Speaks of Rivers" 

Number 5: Robert Frost, "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening"

Number 6: Carl Sandburg, "The People, Yes"

Number 7: Ezra Pound, "Pisan Cantos" 

Number 8: Wallace Stevens, "The Snow Man" 

Number 9: William Carlos Williams, "Patterson" 

Number 10: Elizabeth Bishop, "In the Waiting Room" 

Number 11: Robert Lowell, "For the Union Dead" 

Number 12: e e cummings, "Somewhere I have never traveled, gladly beyond" 

Number 13: Gertrude Stein, "Lifting Belly"

Number 14: Robinson Jeffers, "Shine, Perishing Republic" 

Number 15: Charles Olson, "The Maximus Poems"

      
-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Sun May  1 21:31:59 2005
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 18:31:59 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <032f01c54eb6$c2f66830$17321c40@Emily>

Jeff Newberry wrote: And Gertrude Stein wrote primarily garbage--what is
she doing on this list? 
 
**
 
You've got to be kidding me.
 
 
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Sun May  1 23:53:42 2005
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 22:53:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] village voice: litblogs take off...
In-Reply-To: <00cf01c54e8c$fbef0220$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <005a01c54c95$eae59640$d9de3052@ANNY><019d01c54cfb$2797a8c0$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<4d75f9ce13d5413b6e1ea19ad8cfff67@mac.com>
	<00cf01c54e8c$fbef0220$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20050501225319.D19038@kpaul.spinweb.net>

http://www.villagevoice.com/books/0516,fpress,63148,10.html

-kpaul
mallasch.com



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon May  2 02:29:15 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:29:15 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
References: <032f01c54eb6$c2f66830$17321c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <008c01c54ee0$43610600$b5c93a52@ANNY>

Sorry Jeff, but I side more with Anthony than with you on Stein. You can come out of that cave, I won't yell too much, :-)
  From: Anthony Robinson 
  Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:31 AM


  Jeff Newberry wrote: And Gertrude Stein wrote primarily garbage--what is she doing on this list? 

   

  **

   

  You've got to be kidding me.

   

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May  2 06:25:53 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 06:25:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c54f01$5223b2c0$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I don't have much time right now, so I'll just say here that I wondered if the Brinkley involved was David.  He would have made the same list, I'm fairly sure--he would have consulted some Harvard professor to find out about Olson.  I should think even the worst stasguard at New-Poetry would find it stupid that all the best poems of the centruy but two were written before 1950, and the two not, not written long after that.

--Bob G.
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon May  2 09:10:24 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 09:10:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <032f01c54eb6$c2f66830$17321c40@Emily>
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4275EE80.10903.56F1AA9@localhost>

>     Jeff Newberry wrote: And Gertrude Stein wrote primarily
>     garbage--what is she doing on this list? 

On 1 May 2005 at 18:31, Anthony Robinson wrote:
> You?ve got to be kidding me.

And for my money, not only Stein but Pound, too. 

Marcus







From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Mon May  2 09:12:26 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 09:12:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <002c01c54f01$5223b2c0$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
	<002c01c54f01$5223b2c0$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505020911270.1965@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

Somehow I missed the fifteen best American Poems of the Century...could
someone repost or backchannel me puhleeze - this looks too good to miss -
k.




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon May  2 09:29:38 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 15:29:38 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com><002c01c54f01$5223b2c0$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505020911270.1965@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <004901c54f1a$fe19e0e0$52ed3652@ANNY>

Hi Kerry I hope you mean these, otherwise there were several other versions of Top 15, in that case you should scan the archives, care, Anny


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jeff Newberry 
To: NewPoetry 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 2:59 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
This is old, but I came across it while fooling around at NPR.org tonight.

I like some of what Brinkley says, and I'm glad to see the inclusion of Jeffers, one of my favorite poets.  I must admit, however, that I'm suprised that Plath doesn't make the list.  Ginberg's "Howl" is too histronic for my tastes, and I think that Hughes wrote much better poems than "The Negro Speaks of Rivers."  Frost wrote better than "Stopping By Woods" as well.  And Gertrude Stein wrote primarily garbage--what is she doing on this list? 

Lists like this seem only to make people angry, so let's hear it.  Who's not on this list?  Air your politics!  Air your grievances!  Air your artistic fiefdoms!

Ducking behind a rock and guarding the staas,

Jeff Newberry


Replay: Poets and Poetry
Top 15 American Poems of the Century



Weekend Edition - Sunday, December 26, 1999 ? Commentator and historian Douglas Brinkley put together a panel of distinguished poets and professors to pick the top 15 American poems of the century. Brinkley is distinguished professor of history and director of the Eisenhower Center at the University of New Orleans. Here is his list:



Number 1: T.S. Eliot, "The Wasteland" 

 Number 2: Hart Crane, "The Bridge" 

 Number 3: Allen Ginsburg, "Howl" 

 Number 4: Langston Hughes, "The Negro Speaks of Rivers" 

 Number 5: Robert Frost, "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening"

 Number 6: Carl Sandburg, "The People, Yes"

 Number 7: Ezra Pound, "Pisan Cantos" 

 Number 8: Wallace Stevens, "The Snow Man" 

 Number 9: William Carlos Williams, "Patterson" 

 Number 10: Elizabeth Bishop, "In the Waiting Room" 

 Number 11: Robert Lowell, "For the Union Dead" 

 Number 12: e e cummings, "Somewhere I have never traveled, gladly beyond" 

 Number 13: Gertrude Stein, "Lifting Belly"

 Number 14: Robinson Jeffers, "Shine, Perishing Republic" 

 Number 15: Charles Olson, "The Maximus Poems"


 






-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ 
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________






From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
Cc: "NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:12 PM


> Somehow I missed the fifteen best American Poems of the Century...could
> someone repost or backchannel me puhleeze - this looks too good to miss -
> k.
> 
> 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May  2 09:46:52 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:46:52 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4275EE80.10903.56F1AA9@localhost>
Message-ID: <045e01c54f1d$6597f2f0$fd9c9951@Robin>

> And for my money, not only Stein but Pound, too.
>
> Marcus

Marcus, if you don't mind my saying this, you seriously ought to get a life.

The above is one of the most fatuous comments I've ever encountered in my
mis-spent existence.

Dun Ronin



From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon May  2 10:05:31 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:05:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Horse poems, Dachsund poems
In-Reply-To: <96.266f41c5.2fa535ca@cs.com>
Message-ID: <4275FB6B.11722.5A18ED0@localhost>

Anyone know of any good poems on horses or dachsunds?

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon May  2 10:07:42 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:07:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <045e01c54f1d$6597f2f0$fd9c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <4275FBEE.4798.5A39193@localhost>

> > And for my money, not only Stein but Pound, too.
> > Marcus
> 
On 2 May 2005 at 14:46, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> Marcus, if you don't mind my saying this, you seriously ought to get a
> life. The above is one of the most fatuous comments I've ever
> encountered in my mis-spent existence.

I've got a life, thanks; what I don't have is any admiration for 
Pound's poetry.

Marcus







From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Mon May  2 10:17:03 2005
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (roger day)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:17:03 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fde503480505020717255de3c7@mail.gmail.com>

It just seems a very *conservative* list. Neither does it give a
proper set of selection criteria. By "best" it appears to a poem
well-known in certain quarters with due reverence to all shades of
political opinion. The "Wasteland" - why? Eliot at his least mannered
- and best edited - but wasn't he headed off into the wastes of Europe
at this point? Becoming some sort of UK monarchist, never to return to
the Missouri? Shouldn't TS head a Brit list rather than US? Has anyone
outside of US (southern) academia actually heard of Jeffers? Robert
Lowell - exponent of confession poetry, surely a black-mark in itself?
I love "For The Union Dead" but isn't it it's own rocky strata, now
warmly irradiated with sentimentality and fond youthful memories? This
probably goes for the rest of the poems on this list, most of which I
suspect, now go unread. It almost plays into the current nostalgia
boom for that 2WW generation: Radio Days, Saving Private Ryan and all
that...Maybe thats why the list stopped at the 50s. Appropriate given
that that's where "we" (both sides of the Atlantic) seem to be headed
culture-wise right now.

It's the *lack* of fighting over this list which I think is it's most
noticeable feature. Compare and contrast the reception of Tuma's Brit
anthology by Don Paterson et al. I'd hate to think of a similar Brit
list - it may well include Eliot then head off into Plath, Hughes,
Larkin and so on into a miserable country of plague and infighting in
the 60s/70s, where a sad hippy gets dragged out for another thrashing
by those who think Western Society fell apart at this point. Another
reason for stopping at the 50s?

The UK poetry society did a survey a while ago - which I can't find a
link to - where they tried to find the poetry that was used and
well-known by people. I seem to recall they found a lot of
samizdat-like poetry, written on scraps, passed hand to hand, almost a
parallel world to the poetry bought and sold in bookshops or discussed
by academics. I shall have to try harder and find it.

Roger.

On 5/2/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is old, but I came across it while fooling around at
> NPR.org<http://NPR.org>tonight.
>  I like some of what Brinkley says, and I'm glad to see the inclusion of 
> Jeffers, one of my favorite poets. I must admit, however, that I'm suprised
> 
> that Plath doesn't make the list. Ginberg's "Howl" is too histronic for my 
> tastes, and I think that Hughes wrote much better poems than "The Negro 
> Speaks of Rivers." Frost wrote better than "Stopping By Woods" as well. And
> 
> Gertrude Stein wrote primarily garbage--what is she doing on this list?
>  Lists like this seem only to make people angry, so let's hear it. Who's not
> 
> on this list? Air your politics! Air your grievances! Air your artistic 
> fiefdoms!
>  Ducking behind a rock and guarding the staas,
>  Jeff Newberry
>   Replay: Poets and Poetry
> 
> Top 15 American Poems of the Century
> 
>  Weekend Edition - Sunday, December 26, 1999 ? Commentator and historian 
> Douglas Brinkley put together a panel of distinguished poets and professors
> 
> to pick the top 15 American poems of the century. Brinkley is distinguished
> 
> professor of history and director of the Eisenhower Center at the
> Universityof New
> Orleans. Here is his list:
> 
>  Number 1: T.S. Eliot, "The Wasteland" 
> 
> Number 2: Hart Crane, "The Bridge" 
> 
> Number 3: Allen Ginsburg, "Howl" 
> 
> Number 4: Langston Hughes, "The Negro Speaks of Rivers" 
> 
> Number 5: Robert Frost, "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening"
> 
> Number 6: Carl Sandburg, "The People, Yes"
> 
> Number 7: Ezra Pound, "Pisan Cantos" 
> 
> Number 8: Wallace Stevens, "The Snow Man" 
> 
> Number 9: William Carlos Williams, "Patterson" 
> 
> Number 10: Elizabeth Bishop, "In the Waiting Room" 
> 
> Number 11: Robert Lowell, "For the Union Dead" 
> 
> Number 12: e e cummings, "Somewhere I have never traveled, gladly beyond" 
> 
> Number 13: Gertrude Stein, "Lifting Belly"
> 
> Number 14: Robinson Jeffers, "Shine, Perishing Republic" 
> 
> Number 15: Charles Olson, "The Maximus Poems"
> 
>       
> -- 
> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz
> 
> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> 
> 

-- 
http://www.badstep.net



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May  2 10:45:46 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 15:45:46 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
References: <4275FBEE.4798.5A39193@localhost>
Message-ID: <04ac01c54f25$a05dc010$fd9c9951@Robin>

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>

> I've got a life, thanks; what I don't have is any admiration for 
> Pound's poetry.
> 
> Marcus

That says it -- 'nuff said.

R.


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May  2 11:21:23 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:21:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <04ac01c54f25$a05dc010$fd9c9951@Robin>
References: <4275FBEE.4798.5A39193@localhost>
	<04ac01c54f25$a05dc010$fd9c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <42764573.7060707@ix.netcom.com>

In the course of newspaper research about Ernest Hemingway's short story
"Che Ti Dice la Patria", I came across a diverting account of a visit by
Hemingway and his friend Guy Hickok to Pound in Rapallo in March, 1927. I
thought it might be of interest to those going to Rapallo in July for the
international conference, and I append it without attachments at the end of
this message.
    By way of background, Hickok was the manager of the Brooklyn Eagle
bureau in Paris from 1918 until the bureau closed in 1933 and had befriended
Hemingway soon after Hemingway's arrival in Paris in December, 1921. Hickok,
an Oberlin graduate, was a fairly sophisticated journalist for his day and
had contributed occasional non-fiction pieces to little magazines in Paris.
In the first issue of Pound's The Exile (March, 1927) he has some satirical
impressions of America and American college girls.
    Hemingway, between wives and between novels, and Hickok made a hurried
reporting trip to northern Italy between March 18 and March 24, 1927,
covering nearly 2,000 kilometers in Hickok's battered Ford coupe. Despite
the dateline of the article, their visit to Pound occured in the evening of
the 18th of March.
    I would be grateful for any observations about the piece. In particular,
who is the "prospect" from Detroit?

Cheers.
Paul Montgomery
Lausanne, Switzerland



Brooklyn Daily Eagle, Sunday, April 17, 1927, page B4 (editorial page)

Ezra Pound, American Author,
 Now in Genoa, Has Regular
  Bathtub and Charming Wife

                     By Guy Hickok
           (Staff Correspondent of The Eagle)

 Rapallo, Italy, April 7 - Twenty miles beyond Genoa, and after a rather
terrifying leap of the road away from the coast over a hill and back again,
one plunges into Rapallo, already the most modern, rapidly becoming
excessively so, of Italy's Riviera resorts. Here we found Ezra Pound.
 Too swift modernization has wrought incongruities. A venerable Roman bridge
that for centuries has arched a stream must be astonished to find one of its
gray granite ends nudging a new flower bed in the front yard of a pink and
white villa.
 Realtors have torn down buildings which local residents insist should be
preserved as historical relics to make place for cheaply gaudy boarding
houses. And more are threatened.
           Rapallo Ignores Ban on Cabarets.
 In spite of Mussolini's edict that cabarets and jazz must go, we were led,
after dinner, into a perfectly good cabaret opening directly on the shore
front promenade, where saxophones gurgled as shamelessly as anywhere in the
world. The only effect of the Duce's pronouncement has been that the
proprietor had hung up plush curtains at the windows to dim the lights and
deaden, slightly, the sound.
 The reason Ernest Hemingway, author of "The Sun Also Rises," and I stopped
at Rapallo was that that strange enigma of American letters, Ezra Pound, had
gone there to live. We agreed before arriving that "strange enigma of
American letters" was the best possible term to apply to Pound. And when he
paid the dinner bill we decided the stop might be called a pilgrimage. Had
he not done so we would have merely said that we stumbled on him there while
passing through on more important business.
           Pound Does Queer Things.
 All sorts of queer things have been written about Pound. A reddish beard
and some velvet coats he used to wear got him called eccentric. He insists,
however, that he wore the velvet coats only because they were given to him
when he was too poor to buy any others; that they were given him by would-be
bohemian Americans who hadn't the courage to wear them after they had bought
them for their own use.
 He edits and publishes queer little short-lived magazines with no
advertising and circulations numbering only a few hundreds. He resurrects
forgotten songs of the medieval troubadours, and, strangely enough, gets
grand opera singers to sing them at rare, though crowded concerts in Paris.
He has written and published in expensive editions cantos and cantos of the
life of the great Fifteenth Century Italian mercenary soldier Sigismund
Malatesta. He writes them in mixed Italian, Latin and modern slang.
 He publishes at intervals strange-looking, thin books of prose and verse by
unknown writers and calls them an "inquest into the present state of English
letters."
 He "discovers' unheard-of sculptors and painters and writes big books about
them.
                   Often Proves Himself Right.
 The puzzling part of it is that Pound so often turns out to be right. A
surprising number of persons whose things appeared in his little magazines
and booklets when they were totally unknown have since gained international
recognition, become lauded as among the best of their day. D.H. Lawrence,
James Joyce, Ernest Hemingway, T.S. Eliot and the sculptors, Brancusi and
Gaudier, are among his finds. Pound was one of the first to introduce
William Butler Yeats to America.
 After they get famous they write no more for Mr. Pound. They go sailing
away on their successful careers. But that bothers Pound very little. He
enjoys hunting new ones.
Away out of the world down here in Rapallo, in the last place on earth one
would pick for finding literary talent, he is still at it. He doesn't find
them at Rapallo. Oh no!
             Finds Prospects in Detroit.
His last prospect is in Detroit. How from Rapallo he could see that there
was a promising author in Detroit isn't explained. But he did see it and he
thinks the Detroit man "has something."
"If only he will bite on the nail," said Pound. "I'm a little afraid he won'
t. I've seen so many of them come up and put their lips against the nail,
and look as if they were really going to do something and then slip away
without setting their teeth in it."
"Biting on a nail" seems to be Pound's estimate of how hard run [? at most a
four-letter word] a talented man must work to do something good.
Why he should care whether they do or do not, is another part of the Pound
enigma. He makes no money out of this business. It costs him money to
publish the first efforts of his finds, and he gets nothing from them after
he has launched them.
That fact absolves this piece from the charge of "press agenting" Pound. It
will bring him no graft. He makes no money from either his own works or
those of his finds.
           An Enigmatic Person.
Very enigmatic person he is. One expects to find some literary bomb thrower
with odd personal habits and bohemian morals. His past reputation makes one
expect it.
One does find him living in an odd corner of the world. But he wears very
regular clothes, since he can now afford to buy them. He has a regular
bathtub, not too easy [? a four-letter word at most] to have in Italy, and
he has a regular and very charming wife, Mrs. Dorothy Pound.
He talks shyly and hesitatingly about what he is at; in such a way that a
dub reporter like the present one cannot make head nor tail of what he is up
to. And yet somehow one feels that, like certain old beverages, he has
"authority."
  ---------<>---------




>  
>


From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon May  2 11:50:08 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:50:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a050502085016decbd0@mail.gmail.com>

I'll go on record as saying that I think that these kinds of lists are 
rather vacuous. Essentially, we don't know Brinkley's criteria for selection 
other than the vague adjective "top" that names the list itself. "Top what" 
also comes to mind. "Top" in terms of technique? "Top" because the poems are 
memorable or perhaps influential?
 I thought that *The Wasteland* was a curious choice, as well, by the way.
 I won't take back my comment about Stein, but I do respectfully disagree 
with Marcus: only *half* of what Pound wrote is tripe, not all of it ;-) In 
my defense, I do like *Three Lives*, but I can't stomach Stein's poetry.
 Nonetheless, ranking poems in this way makes me wonder: have critics ranked 
the best short stories or novels of the century? Can anyone post a list? I 
remember seeing a list on which Joyce's *Ulysses* got the highest honor, but 
I don't remember what list that was. I know about the AFI Top 100 Films; I 
know that the AFI list made a lot folks mad. 
 But I suppose that making people angry is the nature of such lists.
 Thanks for the discussion.
 Yours,
 Jeff Newberry

 On 5/1/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> This is old, but I came across it while fooling around at NPR.org<http://npr.org/>tonight.
>  I like some of what Brinkley says, and I'm glad to see the inclusion of 
> Jeffers, one of my favorite poets. I must admit, however, that I'm suprised 
> that Plath doesn't make the list. Ginberg's "Howl" is too histronic for my 
> tastes, and I think that Hughes wrote much better poems than "The Negro 
> Speaks of Rivers." Frost wrote better than "Stopping By Woods" as well. And 
> Gertrude Stein wrote primarily garbage--what is she doing on this list? 
>  Lists like this seem only to make people angry, so let's hear it. Who's 
> not on this list? Air your politics! Air your grievances! Air your artistic 
> fiefdoms!
>  Ducking behind a rock and guarding the staas,
>  Jeff Newberry
>   Replay: Poets and Poetry
> 
> Top 15 American Poems of the Century
> 
>  Weekend Edition - Sunday, December 26, 1999 ? Commentator and historian 
> Douglas Brinkley put together a panel of distinguished poets and professors 
> to pick the top 15 American poems of the century. Brinkley is distinguished 
> professor of history and director of the Eisenhower Center at the University 
> of New Orleans. Here is his list:
> 
>  Number 1: T.S. Eliot, "The Wasteland" 
> 
> Number 2: Hart Crane, "The Bridge" 
> 
> Number 3: Allen Ginsburg, "Howl" 
> 
> Number 4: Langston Hughes, "The Negro Speaks of Rivers" 
> 
> Number 5: Robert Frost, "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening"
> 
> Number 6: Carl Sandburg, "The People, Yes"
> 
> Number 7: Ezra Pound, "Pisan Cantos" 
> 
> Number 8: Wallace Stevens, "The Snow Man" 
> 
> Number 9: William Carlos Williams, "Patterson" 
> 
> Number 10: Elizabeth Bishop, "In the Waiting Room" 
> 
> Number 11: Robert Lowell, "For the Union Dead" 
> 
> Number 12: e e cummings, "Somewhere I have never traveled, gladly beyond" 
> 
> Number 13: Gertrude Stein, "Lifting Belly"
> 
> Number 14: Robinson Jeffers, "Shine, Perishing Republic" 
> 
> Number 15: Charles Olson, "The Maximus Poems"
> 
>       
> -- 
> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz
> 
> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ 
> 



-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Mon May  2 13:33:46 2005
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (roger day)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:33:46 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <fde503480505020717255de3c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
	<fde503480505020717255de3c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fde5034805050210331ae2b45c@mail.gmail.com>

Mea Culpa. It's just been pointed out to me that Jeffers was not part
of the Fugitives with John Crow Ransom, Robert Penn Warren et al the
group who I think I was trying to clump Jeffers with for some reason
of my neurons erratic switching. Did the Fugitives have a large public
following? If they did, then double doh! Maybe it was all those Rs
that confused my befuddled memory.

Also, apologies to Jeffers, wherever his bones might lie.

Roger.

On 5/2/05, roger day <rog3r.day at gmail.com> wrote:
> It just seems a very *conservative* list. Neither does it give a
> proper set of selection criteria. By "best" it appears to a poem
> well-known in certain quarters with due reverence to all shades of
> political opinion. The "Wasteland" - why? Eliot at his least mannered
> - and best edited - but wasn't he headed off into the wastes of Europe
> at this point? Becoming some sort of UK monarchist, never to return to
> the Missouri? Shouldn't TS head a Brit list rather than US? Has anyone
> outside of US (southern) academia actually heard of Jeffers? Robert
> Lowell - exponent of confession poetry, surely a black-mark in itself?
> I love "For The Union Dead" but isn't it it's own rocky strata, now
> warmly irradiated with sentimentality and fond youthful memories? This
> probably goes for the rest of the poems on this list, most of which I
> suspect, now go unread. It almost plays into the current nostalgia
> boom for that 2WW generation: Radio Days, Saving Private Ryan and all
> that...Maybe thats why the list stopped at the 50s. Appropriate given
> that that's where "we" (both sides of the Atlantic) seem to be headed
> culture-wise right now.
> 
> It's the *lack* of fighting over this list which I think is it's most
> noticeable feature. Compare and contrast the reception of Tuma's Brit
> anthology by Don Paterson et al. I'd hate to think of a similar Brit
> list - it may well include Eliot then head off into Plath, Hughes,
> Larkin and so on into a miserable country of plague and infighting in
> the 60s/70s, where a sad hippy gets dragged out for another thrashing
> by those who think Western Society fell apart at this point. Another
> reason for stopping at the 50s?
> 
> The UK poetry society did a survey a while ago - which I can't find a
> link to - where they tried to find the poetry that was used and
> well-known by people. I seem to recall they found a lot of
> samizdat-like poetry, written on scraps, passed hand to hand, almost a
> parallel world to the poetry bought and sold in bookshops or discussed
> by academics. I shall have to try harder and find it.
> 
> Roger.
> 
> On 5/2/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
> > This is old, but I came across it while fooling around at
> > NPR.org<http://NPR.org>tonight.
> >  I like some of what Brinkley says, and I'm glad to see the inclusion of 
> > Jeffers, one of my favorite poets. I must admit, however, that I'm
> suprised
> > 
> > that Plath doesn't make the list. Ginberg's "Howl" is too histronic for my
> 
> > tastes, and I think that Hughes wrote much better poems than "The Negro 
> > Speaks of Rivers." Frost wrote better than "Stopping By Woods" as well.
> And
> > 
> > Gertrude Stein wrote primarily garbage--what is she doing on this list?
> >  Lists like this seem only to make people angry, so let's hear it. Who's
> not
> > 
> > on this list? Air your politics! Air your grievances! Air your artistic 
> > fiefdoms!
> >  Ducking behind a rock and guarding the staas,
> >  Jeff Newberry
> >   Replay: Poets and Poetry
> > 
> > Top 15 American Poems of the Century
> > 
> >  Weekend Edition - Sunday, December 26, 1999 ? Commentator and historian 
> > Douglas Brinkley put together a panel of distinguished poets and
> professors
> > 
> > to pick the top 15 American poems of the century. Brinkley is
> distinguished
> > 
> > professor of history and director of the Eisenhower Center at the
> > Universityof New
> > Orleans. Here is his list:
> > 
> >  Number 1: T.S. Eliot, "The Wasteland" 
> > 
> > Number 2: Hart Crane, "The Bridge" 
> > 
> > Number 3: Allen Ginsburg, "Howl" 
> > 
> > Number 4: Langston Hughes, "The Negro Speaks of Rivers" 
> > 
> > Number 5: Robert Frost, "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening"
> > 
> > Number 6: Carl Sandburg, "The People, Yes"
> > 
> > Number 7: Ezra Pound, "Pisan Cantos" 
> > 
> > Number 8: Wallace Stevens, "The Snow Man" 
> > 
> > Number 9: William Carlos Williams, "Patterson" 
> > 
> > Number 10: Elizabeth Bishop, "In the Waiting Room" 
> > 
> > Number 11: Robert Lowell, "For the Union Dead" 
> > 
> > Number 12: e e cummings, "Somewhere I have never traveled, gladly beyond"
> 
> > 
> > Number 13: Gertrude Stein, "Lifting Belly"
> > 
> > Number 14: Robinson Jeffers, "Shine, Perishing Republic" 
> > 
> > Number 15: Charles Olson, "The Maximus Poems"
> > 
> >       
> > -- 
> > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
> > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz
> > 
> > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> http://www.badstep.net
> 

-- 
http://www.badstep.net



From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May  2 14:06:07 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 14:06:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050502085016decbd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a050502085016decbd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42766C0F.2070300@ix.netcom.com>

Doug Brinkley used to work for me back here in DC while he was doing 
graduate work and trying to get access to the Acheson papers. I drove 
home the power of the Pound/Olson "poem that contains history" every 
chance I got with the young historian. Glad to see it stuck. CP


>     Number 1: T.S. Eliot, "The Wasteland"
>
>      Number 2: Hart Crane, "The Bridge"
>
>      Number 3: Allen Ginsburg, "Howl"
>
>      Number 4: Langston Hughes, "The Negro Speaks of Rivers"
>
>      Number 5: Robert Frost, "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening"
>
>      Number 6: Carl Sandburg, "The People, Yes"
>
>      Number 7: Ezra Pound, "Pisan Cantos"
>
>      Number 8: Wallace Stevens, "The Snow Man"
>
>      Number 9: William Carlos Williams, "Patterson"
>
>      Number 10: Elizabeth Bishop, "In the Waiting Room"
>
>      Number 11: Robert Lowell, "For the Union Dead"
>
>      Number 12: e e cummings, "Somewhere I have never traveled, gladly
>     beyond"
>
>      Number 13: Gertrude Stein, "Lifting Belly"
>
>      Number 14: Robinson Jeffers, "Shine, Perishing Republic"
>
>      Number 15: Charles Olson, "The Maximus Poems"
>
>
>      
>      
>      
>      
>      
>      
>
>     -- 
>     "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
>     It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz
>
>     Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>     <http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/>
>      
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz
>
> Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
>


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May  2 15:39:54 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 15:39:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
Message-ID: <19c.329e280a.2fa7dc0a@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/2/2005 10:22:05 AM Central Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
>   I would be grateful for any observations about the piece. In particular,
> who is the "prospect" from Detroit?

A good question.  But probably just someone who wrote to Pound then faded 
from view.  He certainly kept up a huge correspondence.
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Mon May  2 03:35:18 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 15:35:18 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 11, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <200505021329.j42DT4Re032712@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200505021329.j42DT4Re032712@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300be9b83f2042b@[204.215.202.47]>

Bob, can you place each of these best poems into one or more of your 
categories?  For instance, I'd put Jeffers and Ginsberg into at least 
one of the received lineages from Whitman.  Also, how do you account 
the relationship of Eliot and the way his mind worked to make "The 
Waste Land" to theories of Cubism in your taxonomy?  Wouldn't 
Cummings and Eliot share a category?  Can you provide a chart that 
would check off each poem per category?

Possibly, a double helix model of poem lineages could be envisaged to 
model literary poetries simultaneous evolutions in genearations, 
societies, ages.
Illumination from Yeat's astrology system could be included in this vision.

As to WCW: most poetry people would vote for "Spring and All" over 
"Patterson," in my opinion.  And, in what categories would you place 
these two poems?  The same one(s)?  "Maximus" a co-inhabitant of the 
category into which "Patterson" is identified?


R i c h a r d  D i l l o n



At 09:29 AM -0400 5/2/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
>Message: 16
>Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 06:25:53 -0400
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Top 15 American Poems of the Century
>To: "Jeff Newberry" <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>,	"NewPoetry:
>	ContemporaryPoetry News &amp;	Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <002c01c54f01$5223b2c0$a8b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>I don't have much time right now, so I'll just say here that I 
>wondered if the Brinkley involved was David.  He would have made the 
>same list, I'm fairly sure--he would have consulted some Harvard 
>professor to find out about Olson.  I should think even the worst 
>stasguard at New-Poetry would find it stupid that all the best poems 
>of the centruy but two were written before 1950, and the two not, 
>not written long after that.
>
>--Bob G.

-- 


From arlyn at floodcity.net  Mon May  2 16:30:04 2005
From: arlyn at floodcity.net (Arlyn Edelstein)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:30:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Yes,  I Can"
Message-ID: <009c01c54f55$b9c11360$59d45dc6@Arlyn>

                   Yes, I Can 

    As a young girl
    Spending hours playing with my assortment of dolls I
    Never tiring of dressing and undressing them,
    To the best of my ability,
    I would hold long silent conversations
    With each as I moved the dolls around
    To different rooms in their modest house. 

    At the same time as I struggled
    To enjoy playing my doll family I
    Was learning how to talk, crawl, walk.
    There were years spent practicing
    Feeding myself and dressing myself.

    Time and environment changed taking
    The upper-hand with the physical aspect of my Cerebral Palsy,
    For these days aides help me stand from a wheel chair.
    Just as I used to attempt to take good care of dolls, I now
    Depend on trust-worthy people to feed and dress me.

    My mind
    Can still see through and around most saturations
    Filling in unsaid thoughts while
    Words comes like a rushing river
    Ready to form poems.

    Blessed in countless ways,
    I struggle daily to give to others.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May  2 16:59:09 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:59:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a050502085016decbd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d601c54f59$ca4b18d0$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I'll go on record as saying that I think that these kinds of lists are rather vacuous.  Essentially, we don't know Brinkley's criteria for selection other than the vague adjective "top" that names the list itself.  "Top what" also comes to mind.  "Top" in terms of technique?  "Top" because the poems are memorable or perhaps influential? 

  I thought that *The Wasteland* was a curious choice, as well, by the way.

  I won't take back my comment about Stein, but I do respectfully disagree with Marcus:  only *half* of what Pound wrote is tripe, not all of it ;-)  In my defense, I do like *Three Lives*, but I can't stomach Stein's poetry. 

  Nonetheless, ranking poems in this way makes me wonder:  have critics ranked the best short stories or novels of the century?  Can anyone post a list?  I remember seeing a list on which Joyce's *Ulysses* got the highest honor, but I don't remember what list that was.  I know about the AFI Top 100 Films; I know that the AFI list made a lot folks mad.  

  But I suppose that making people angry is the nature of such lists.

  Thanks for the discussion.

  Yours,

  Jeff Newberry

  What discussion?  I think such a list should spark a hugely interesting discussion among true students of poetry.  Why?  Because, among much else, it would get them defining value in poetry, defending their kinds of poetry, perhaps exposing unfairly obscure poets to view, giving others direct or indirect insights into the way they conceive of poetry, arguing the possibility of determing which poems should be on such a list, presenting ideas for better lists, probing the methods of list-makers, critics, reputation-makers, and so on.

  Alas, at New-Poetry, all we can expect are a few pop-off posts (yes, friends, like the one I made, but I was in a hurry) and maybe a retort or two to the pop-offs.

  Oh, well, it's a subject I will tackle when I have time at my blog.

  A few additions to my post: I think maybe three, not two, of the poems on the list were written after 1950.  Maybe even four or five.  I'm almost sure none after 1960, and certain none less than thirty years ago.  Understandable, but why call the list the best poems of the whole century?

  I, too, feel you have to be kidding when you wonder how Stein's poem got on the list, but I suspect from a different point of view than Tony--or, maybe not.  Her poem's on because she's a feminist icon.  

  I sincerely wish someone would post "lifting belly" and explain why it's a valuable poem the way I've explained (unconvincingly, apparently) why one of Cummings's was. 

  Hey, a Breakthrough Change in my poetics: I now have a way to consider Stein's kind of seeming prose poetry: defining the jump-cut as a semantic flow-break.  Previously, I've defined the flow-break as a visual gap that interrupts the reading of a poem's text, but a jump-cut can do the same.  A gap in meaning.

  ONe last thing: a request for a new word or phrase I think would be useful.  Maybe "immediately pre-contemporary" would be it.  "Penultiporary?"  What I want is a word that could be used in lists like the Brinkley one to make it honest without a lot of extra words--i.e., allow Brinkley to present a "top 15 penultiporary poems of the 20th-century."  "Penultiporary" meaning up to within the last thirty years or so.  How about "penulticontempry?"  Still bad, but at least improved?

  Funny, I feel tired and stupid, but nevertheless feel like I'm making a terrific contribution to World Culture with this post.

  --Bob G.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon May  2 17:15:51 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 23:15:51 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] At dusk iridescent - Thomas Meyer
Message-ID: <009701c54f5c$1ed2e390$95d63152@ANNY>

>From another list and grateful to Martin J. Walker:
Thomas Meyer, At dusk iridescent- selected poems published by Jargon Books on the following site:
http://jargonbooks.com/dusk.pdf


...

A grotto of rock thick with moss where
leaves bower hidden aethers, ladened air
that opens up deep chambers
lighting the mind's cave

...
from CALENDS



RUNE

Elm and oak and
ash what you willow
I alder birch
the palm my reed.

Apple the vine and
elder too with mistletoe.
Backthorn whitethorn
holly and hazerl rowan

the ivy yew poplar heath
furze the silver fir.



BECAUSE

Siberian blue
iris, when they do
bloom

a few still do
incredible 
azure stammers

the wind my
baited breath
slurs

trying to 
say
a-ne-mo-ne

thinking that's
what they were.
This news

I've waited so long for
on the bank up the drive's
curve.


OGHAM

into shade
the wood's edge
a crane
flies

against the sun
going down
into October
a guttered flame


____________________
and many many more, !

____________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From Garrbearr at aol.com  Mon May  2 17:54:32 2005
From: Garrbearr at aol.com (Garrbearr at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:54:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kim
Message-ID: <f5.509c6aca.2fa7fb98@aol.com>


I know I heard you through
a lonely moaning
caring wind
 
from an open window
it sounded human
and I knew
 
it was you.
 
 
 
 
:) gary allen
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May  2 17:59:03 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:59:03 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright's . . .
Message-ID: <81.26ea738c.2fa7fca7@cs.com>

. . . series of crank emails in the May Poetry are pretty funny.
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Mon May  2 18:03:37 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:03:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright's . . .
Message-ID: <dd.25afa829.2fa7fdb9@aol.com>

I always thought that if I won hte Pulitzer I might turn into a nice guy. I  
guess not.
 
 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May  2 18:14:03 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:14:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright's . . .
References: <81.26ea738c.2fa7fca7@cs.com>
Message-ID: <011d01c54f64$43673b90$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  . . . series of crank emails in the May Poetry are pretty funny. 
  Ones he wrote or that were written to him?
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May  2 18:44:16 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:44:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright's . . .
Message-ID: <1c6.27dbc3c4.2fa80740@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/2/2005 5:15:01 PM Central Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> 
> >> . . . series of crank emails in the May Poetry are pretty funny. Ones he 
>> wrote or that were written to him?
>> 
>> 
> 
By Mr. Wright.
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon May  2 20:17:14 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 20:17:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Calling the MLA . . .
Message-ID: <731bb17a05050217173f1f5c28@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=8194704&src=rss/oddlyEnoughNews
 Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May  2 20:32:16 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 20:32:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kim
References: <f5.509c6aca.2fa7fb98@aol.com>
Message-ID: <015901c54f77$8f687fa0$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


  I know I heard you through
  a lonely moaning
  caring wind

  from an open window
  it sounded human
  and I knew

  it was you.


  :) gary allen


  Apologies, Gary, but I can't resist doing my version:

  I thought I heard you through

  a lonely moaning
  caring wind

  from an open window
  it sounded human
  and I knew

  I was wrong.
  You've been luckier with wimmin than me, I guess.  (PS, I like "lonely moaning/ caring wind")

  --Bob G.


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From arlyn at floodcity.net  Mon May  2 20:49:16 2005
From: arlyn at floodcity.net (Arlyn Edelstein)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 20:49:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Yes,  I Can"
Message-ID: <010301c54f79$ef864b40$59d45dc6@Arlyn>

                                      Yes, I Can 
                                  Arlyn I. Edelstein  
        As a young girl
        Spending hours playing with my assortment of dolls I
        Never tiring of dressing and undressing them,
        To the best of my ability,
        I would hold long silent conversations
        With each as I moved the dolls around
        To different rooms in their modest house. 

        At the same time as I struggled
        To enjoy playing my doll family I
        Was learning how to talk, crawl, walk.
        There were years spent practicing
        Feeding myself and dressing myself.

        Time and environment changed taking
        The upper-hand with the physical aspect of my Cerebral Palsy,
        For these days aides help me stand from a wheel chair.
        Just as I used to attempt to take good care of dolls, I now
        Depend on trust-worthy people to feed and dress me.

        My mind
        Can still see through and around most saturations
        Filling in unsaid thoughts while
        Words comes like a rushing river
        Ready to form poems.

        Blessed in countless ways,
        I struggle daily to give to others.
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From Garrbearr at aol.com  Tue May  3 02:40:15 2005
From: Garrbearr at aol.com (Garrbearr at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 02:40:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kim
Message-ID: <ba.712a2e4f.2fa876cf@aol.com>


You're funny :)  Bob, and thank you. It's amazing how you've never  heard the 
wind before until you hear someone you love in it.
 
 
:) gary
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue May  3 07:01:10 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 07:01:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: List of 15 Best Poems
References: <81.26ea738c.2fa7fca7@cs.com>
Message-ID: <008501c54fcf$6a5d4850$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Bob, can you place each of these best poems into one or more of your 
> categories?

Lemme think about it.  Many problems.  One is that I have more than one set of categories.  Several sets, some of which interlap and/or are confusingly 
unsettled.  Right now I'm involved with lineages--as a student/searcher and lit-history hobbyist.  Cummings the focus.

>For instance, I'd put Jeffers and Ginsberg into at least one of the 
>received lineages from Whitman.

Ginsberg is the contragenteel version of Whitman, for sure.  I'm a big fan of Jeffers but haven't read him analytically, nor read him for a while.  Frequent long lines like Whitman.  Free verse.  Visionary.  Certainly on one of the lines out of Whitman.

>Also, how do you account the relationship of Eliot and the way his mind 
>worked to make "The Waste Land" to theories of Cubism in your taxonomy?

"Cubism" is problematic for me.  Not sure what it is.  I think of it as (1) a means of distortion the way impressionism was and (2) showing a subject 
from more than one point of view at once.  I think of Eliot/Pound as pioneering the jump-cut, not as cubists (and a serious lit-history question for me would be who was the first to make a jump-cut poem in English, and 
who the first to make an effective such poem).  I don't think you can "see" a subject from two points of view at once in a poem; in the "Wasteland" you see them from two points of view consecutively with no bridge, so it's 
disorienting--if you really see any specific subject from two points of view in the poem.  Seems to me you get jerked from one scene to another, never seeing any one scene from more than one point of view, but seeing them in a perceptually illogical order. . . .

>  Wouldn't Cummings and Eliot share a category?

I hadn't thought so, but maybe they should.

> Can you provide a chart that would check off each poem per category?

I hope to eventually sketch some kind of charting scheme but don't have one yet.

> Possibly, a double helix model of poem lineages could be envisaged to 
> model literary poetries simultaneous evolutions in generations, societies, 
> ages.

It'd be complex, for sure--certainly not ABCDEF.  One interest of mine is in how much effect various poets/poems had on the . . . poetisphere? aside from 
influences on individuals.

> Illumination from Yeat's astrology system could be included in this 
> vision.

Dunno 'bout that, Richard.

> As to WCW: most poetry people would vote for "Spring and All" over 
> "Patterson," in my opinion.  And, in what categories would you place these 
> two poems?

I think some poem by several of the poets with poems on the list is reasonable, but would have others than the ones chosen--or would throw up my hands at the impossibility of picking out, for instance, Stevens's "best" poem.  I'd rate "The Wheelbarrow" Williams's best poem, but am very biased toward minimalism.  (So if were list-making, I'd make several, one for each 
size of poem, and others.)

>The same one(s)?  "Maximus" a co-inhabitant of the category into which 
>"Patterson" is identified?

"Spring and All" would not be in a category with "Paterson," I don't think, but the "Cantos," "Paterson" and Maximus" would have to go together, I would 
think.

Okay, off the top of my head, how I'd class the 15 poems according to my Official Taxonomy (which I never can remember in detail):

Number 1: T.S. Eliot, "The Wasteland"    Burstnorm/Idiological/jump-cut

 Number 2: Hart Crane, "The Bridge"
same, probably, but I only know excerpts of this poem

 Number 3: Allen Ginsburg, "Howl"
Plaintext/Contragenteel

 Number 4: Langston Hughes, "The Negro Speaks of Rivers"
I don't know this one but would guess Songmode/maybe contragenteel

 Number 5: Robert Frost, "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening"
Songmode/traditional (actually, I haven't worked out a taxonomy of traditional formal verse--I'm sure I'd accept almost any critic's taxonomy that was based on techniques)

 Number 6: Carl Sandburg, "The People, Yes"
Probably with Hughes's.  I no doubt have read this poem but don't know it.  Sandburg on this list is idiotic.

Number 7: Ezra Pound, "Pisan Cantos"
Plaintext/no subcategories

Number 8: Wallace Stevens, "The Snow Man"
Plaintext/Philosophical

Number 9: William Carlos Williams, "Patterson"
Plaintext or Burstnorm/jumpcut, I'm not sure.

Number 10: Elizabeth Bishop, "In the Waiting Room"
Another poem I've read without remembering.  I can't even remember if she was a formalist, but think she was.  (I tend not to remember whether modern 
poets are formal or freeverse.)  So: songmode/traditional

Number 11: Robert Lowell, "For the Union Dead"
Mixed plaintext/songmode

Number 12: e e cummings (sic), "Somewhere I have never traveled, gladly beyond"
Plaintext/Semi-Infraverbal

Number 13: Gertrude Stein, "Lifting Belly"
probably Burstnorm/Xenolinguistic/non-representational but I can't remember anything of it

 Number 14: Robinson Jeffers, "Shine, Perishing Republic"
Plaintext?

Number 15: Charles Olson, "The Maximus Poems"
between Plaintext and Burstnorm--make it bustnorm/idiological/jump-cut

I count Roethke better than all but Stevens on this list (though not as important as Cummings, a tick better a poet).

--Bob G.
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue May  3 08:57:14 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 08:57:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: List of 15 Best Poems
In-Reply-To: <008501c54fcf$6a5d4850$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42773CEA.15905.A89684C@localhost>

On 3 May 2005 at 7:01, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Okay, off the top of my head, how I'd class the 15 poems according to
> my Official Taxonomy (which I never can remember in detail):

A taxonomy is a transparent system of necessary interconnections, not 
an idiosyncratic set of fuzzy categories of which the author himself 
cannot remember the details. This soi disant "taxonomy" is an example 
of an execrable mis-use of scientific-sounding terminology to try to 
bolster a set of personal opinions to make them seem more significant 
or important than they are.

> Number 1: T.S. Eliot, "The Wasteland" Burstnorm/Idiological/jump- cut
> 
> Number 2: Hart Crane, "The Bridge"
> same, probably, but I only know excerpts of this poem
> Number 4: Langston Hughes, "The Negro Speaks of Rivers"
> I don't know this one but would guess Songmode/maybe contragenteel
> Number 9: William Carlos Williams, "Patterson"
> Plaintext or Burstnorm/jumpcut, I'm not sure.

Probably? I don't know? Maybe? I'm not sure? Is a blue jay a bird? Is 
a vole a mammal? Is a perch a fish? Come, come, Mr Grumman, you must 
do better than this if you want to make a serious claim to anything 
approaching a "taxonomy" -- or else admit that this is merely a mis-
used metaphor strung together to try to steal cultural authority from 
another field of endeavor.
 
> Number 6: Carl Sandburg, "The People, Yes"
> Probably with Hughes's. I no doubt have read this poem but don't know
> it. Sandburg on this list is idiotic.

Why is Sandburg on this list idiotic? You maintain that your kind of 
poetry should be equal taxonomically to any other kind of poetry, so 
why shouldn't Sandburg's be equal taxonomically? After all, a 
taxonomy makes no moral or qualitative judgments, it merely 
classifies according to observationally-confirmed categories. Unless, 
of course, this is no taxonomy after all, but rather merely a way to 
dress up your own opinions inappropriately in scientific clothing.

> Number 10: Elizabeth Bishop, "In the Waiting Room"
> Another poem I've read without remembering. I can't even remember if
> she was a formalist, but think she was. (I tend not to remember
> whether modern poets are formal or freeverse.) So:
> songmode/traditional
> Number 13: Gertrude Stein, "Lifting Belly"
> probably Burstnorm/Xenolinguistic/non-representational but I can't
> remember anything of it

What scientist would dare to classify anything based on an admission 
that he or she doesn't remember the characteristics of that thing? 
This is just so much bullshit, Mr Grumman. Learn about and then 
adhere to the science you claim to be doing, or admit that you're 
just babbling scientisms in an effort to make your opinions seem more 
important than they are, or give it up.
 
Marcus





From Garrbearr at aol.com  Tue May  3 10:38:52 2005
From: Garrbearr at aol.com (Garrbearr at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:38:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Steven's Anecdote of the Jar
Message-ID: <e6.692230e6.2fa8e6fc@aol.com>


Maybe the wilderness is too much for that which surrounds it. Maybe that  
which is not part of that which surrounds it may be the more for having been  
there. A bare gray jar, weighing itself upon a desolate Tennesee hillside, looms  
above an infertile wilderness which rounds an earth miles wide to human eyes. 
A  wilderness no longer wild is a tamed wilderness, a wilderness of one 
perhaps  one keepsake or of moments of wishing to change the unchangeable, to leave 
 a mark where no one treaded before, to split the loneliness of a moment of  
isolation between nature and that which God deemed to be abreast of nature.  
Sometimes the smallest idiom of a left souvenir , the most hushedly whispered  
prayer to more than a Sunday morning God, a tightly lingering embrace of one  
loved one to another is all the meaning we can take from the wilderness of our 
 untamed lives. 
 
 
 
:) gary allen
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May  3 10:45:08 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:45:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Steven's Anecdote of the Jar
Message-ID: <102.605c3ae2.2fa8e874@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/3/2005 9:40:44 AM Central Daylight Time, 
Garrbearr at aol.com writes: 
>  
>  Maybe the wilderness is too much for that which surrounds it. Maybe that 
> which is not part of that which surrounds it may be the more for having been 
> there. A bare gray jar, weighing itself upon a desolate Tennesee hillside, 
> looms above an infertile wilderness which rounds an earth miles wide to human 
> eyes. A wilderness no longer wild is a tamed wilderness, a wilderness of one 
> perhaps one keepsake or of moments of wishing to change the unchangeable, to 
> leave a mark where no one treaded before, to split the loneliness of a moment of 
> isolation between nature and that which God deemed to be abreast of nature. 
> Sometimes the smallest idiom of a left souvenir , the most hushedly whispered 
> prayer to more than a Sunday morning God, a tightly lingering embrace of one 
> loved one to another is all the meaning we can take from the wilderness of 
> our untamed lives. 
>  
> 
I always thought that Stevens, on one of his business trips, had been 
introduced to the pleasures of moonshine inTennessee.  This was during prohibition, 
and he did like a dram.
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From Garrbearr at aol.com  Tue May  3 11:04:54 2005
From: Garrbearr at aol.com (Garrbearr at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:04:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Steven's Anecdote of the Jar
Message-ID: <1a0.330fbf0f.2fa8ed16@aol.com>


I hate to think you're right because he's always been one of those poets  
I've romanticized. Every word a journey into a pure unknown if you know what I  
mean.
 
 
:) gary
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May  3 13:38:36 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:38:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Steven's Anecdote of the Jar
Message-ID: <1ff.d8e8a5.2fa9111c@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/3/2005 10:11:51 AM Central Daylight Time, 
Garrbearr at aol.com writes: 
>  
>  I hate to think you're right because he's always been one of those poets 
> I've romanticized. Every word a journey into a pure unknown if you know what I 
> mean.
>   
> 
This shouldn't diminish the sheer fun of the poem one bit.  And I do think 
he's having some fun here, as he does in many of the Harmonium poems.
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue May  3 07:40:10 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 06:40:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
Message-ID: <BE9CCD4A.8E26%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Story Line Press has just published an anthology of contemporary narrative
called Story Hour, edited by Sonny Williams. Here's the link to the book at
Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1586540351/qid=1115145354/sr=1
-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8137582-6613741?v=glance&s=books

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From Garrbearr at aol.com  Tue May  3 15:23:05 2005
From: Garrbearr at aol.com (Garrbearr at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 15:23:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Steven's Anecdote of the Jar
Message-ID: <9b.5ed52af4.2fa92999@aol.com>


Henry Miller Gary is looking
for a priest 
today
 
preferably Catholic
with
huge ears.
 
 
 
 
sorry i couldn't help it :)
 
 
:)
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Tue May  3 15:25:05 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:25:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C0A@URANIUM.ripon.college>

Thanks for this notice, Paul.  Looks like a must-have book; several of my favorite poems & poets in the table of contents.  Do you feel like giving us a taste of the Lake poem(s) that are in it, perhaps?

When I teach introductory fiction writing a text I like to use is Joyce Carol Oates's *Telling Stories*, in part because she includes a healthy sampling of narrative poems along with the prose.  Fiction writers have a lot to learn from narrative poets, and vice versa.  

I have the notion that this Story Line anthology might be very useful for such a thing, too.

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Paul Lake
> Reply To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: 	Tuesday, May 3, 2005 6:40 AM
> To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
> 
> Story Line Press has just published an anthology of contemporary narrative
> called Story Hour, edited by Sonny Williams. Here's the link to the book at
> Amazon
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1586540351/qid=1115145354/sr=1
> -1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8137582-6613741?v=glance&s=books
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue May  3 15:30:33 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 21:30:33 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C0A@URANIUM.ripon.college>
Message-ID: <00ef01c55016$930d6b80$fea93452@ANNY>

Narrative Poetry AnthologyI wasn't able to get to the table of contents, is this possible?
Thank you, Anny
  From: Graham, David 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:25 PM


  Thanks for this notice, Paul.  Looks like a must-have book; several of my favorite poems & poets in the table of contents.  Do you feel like giving us a taste of the Lake poem(s) that are in it, perhaps?

  When I teach introductory fiction writing a text I like to use is Joyce Carol Oates's *Telling Stories*, in part because she includes a healthy sampling of narrative poems along with the prose.  Fiction writers have a lot to learn from narrative poets, and vice versa.  

  I have the notion that this Story Line anthology might be very useful for such a thing, too. 

  ============================================ 
  David Graham 
  Department of English, Ripon College 
  grahamd at ripon.edu 
       Home Page:  
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html 
       My Poetry Library: 
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html 

  Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu 
  ============================================ 



    ---------- 
    Reply To:       NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Subject:        [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology 

    Story Line Press has just published an anthology of contemporary narrative 
    called Story Hour, edited by Sonny Williams. Here's the link to the book at 
    Amazon 

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1586540351/qid=1115145354/sr=1 
    -1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8137582-6613741?v=glance&s=books 
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Tue May  3 15:35:01 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:35:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C0B@URANIUM.ripon.college>

> I wasn't able to get to the table of contents, is this possible?
> Thank you, Anny
> 
--------------

I wasn't, either.  But the Amazon listing gives all the authors' names plus mentioning some specific poems.  I'd be very interested in seeing the full table of contents, too.  It's a mystery to me why presses don't routinely do this on their web sites.



> 	From: Graham, David 
> 	Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:25 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 	Thanks for this notice, Paul.  Looks like a must-have book; several of my favorite poems & poets in the table of contents.  Do you feel like giving us a taste of the Lake poem(s) that are in it, perhaps?
> 
> 	When I teach introductory fiction writing a text I like to use is Joyce Carol Oates's *Telling Stories*, in part because she includes a healthy sampling of narrative poems along with the prose.  Fiction writers have a lot to learn from narrative poets, and vice versa.  
> 
> 	I have the notion that this Story Line anthology might be very useful for such a thing, too. 
	============

> 		http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1586540351/qid=1115145354/sr=1 
> 	-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8137582-6613741?v=glance&s=books 
> 
> 
> 
============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


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From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Tue May  3 15:55:01 2005
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (roger day)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 20:55:01 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <00d601c54f59$ca4b18d0$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a050502085016decbd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<00d601c54f59$ca4b18d0$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <fde503480505031255389ce3b3@mail.gmail.com>

Isn't a blog talking to yrself?

But what did happen to the Fugitives? Penn Warren won a pullitzer -
you'd a thought he'd a made it to one of these lists?

http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/e00bestnovels.html
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,1061037,00.html

but how could we forget 

http://www.allbookstores.com/book/0446676810

my life is now complete

roger 

On 5/2/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> I'll go on record as saying that I think that these kinds of lists are
> rather vacus.  Essentially, we don't know Brinkley's criteria for
> selection other than the vague adjective "top" that names the list itself. 
> "Top what" also comes to mind.  "Top" in terms of technique?  "Top" because
> the poems are memorable or perhaps influential? 
>  
> I thought that *The Wasteland* was a curious choice, as well, by the way.
>  
> I won't take back my comment about Stein, but I do respectfully disagree
> with Marcus:  only *half* of what Pound wrote is tripe, not all of it ;-) 
> In my defense, I do like *Three Lives*, but I can't stomach Stein's poetry. 
>  
> Nonetheless, ranking poems in this way makes me wonder:  have critics ranked
> the best short stories or novels of the century?  Can anyone post a list?  I
> remember seeing a list on which Joyce's *Ulysses* got the highest honor, but
> I don't remember what list that was.  I know about the AFI Top 100 Films; I
> know that the AFI list made a lot folks mad.  
>  
> But I suppose that making people angry is the nature of such lists.
>  
> Thanks for the discussion.
>  
> Yours,
>  
> Jeff Newberry
> 
> What discussion?  I think such a list should spark a hugely interesting
> discussion among true students of poetry.  Why?  Because, among much else,
> it would get them defining value in poetry, defending their kinds of poetry,
> perhaps exposing unfairly obscure poets to view, giving others direct or
> indirect insights into the way they conceive of poetry, arguing the
> possibility of determing which poems should be on such a list, presenting
> ideas for better lists, probing the methods of list-makers, critics,
> reputation-makers, and so on.
>  
> Alas, at New-Poetry, all we can expect are a few pop-off posts (yes,
> friends, like the one I made, but I was in a hurry) and maybe a retort or
> two to the pop-offs.
>  
> Oh, well, it's a subject I will tackle when I have time at my blog.
>  
> A few additions to my post: I think maybe three, not two, of the poems on
> the list were written after 1950.  Maybe even four or five.  I'm almost sure
> none after 1960, and certain none less than thirty years ago. 
> Understandable, but why call the list the best poems of the whole century?
>  
> I, too, feel you have to be kidding when you wonder how Stein's poem got on
> the list, but I suspect from a different point of view than Tony--or, maybe
> not.  Her poem's on because she's a feminist icon.  
>  
> I sincerely wish someone would post "lifting belly" and explain why it's a
> valuable poem the way I've explained (unconvincingly, apparently) why one of
> Cummings's was. 
>  
> Hey, a Breakthrough Change in my poetics: I now have a way to consider
> Stein's kind of seeming prose poetry: defining the jump-cut as a semantic
> flow-break.  Previously, I've defined the flow-break as a visual gap that
> interrupts the reading of a poem's text, but a jump-cut can do the same.  A
> gap in meaning.
>  
> ONe last thing: a request for a new word or phrase I think would be useful. 
> Maybe "immediately pre-contemporary" would be it.  "Penultiporary?"  What I
> want is a word that could be used in lists like the Brinkley one to make it
> honest without a lot of extra words--i.e., allow Brinkley to present a "top
> 15 penultiporary poems of the 20th-century."  "Penultiporary" meaning up to
> within the last thirty years or so.  How about "penulticontempry?"  Still
> bad, but at least improved?
>  
> Funny, I feel tired and stupid, but nevertheless feel like I'm making a
> terrific contribution to World Culture with this post.
>  
> --Bob G.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
http://www.badstep.net



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue May  3 16:52:00 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 22:52:00 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C0B@URANIUM.ripon.college>
Message-ID: <016801c55021$f4491420$fea93452@ANNY>

Narrative Poetry AnthologyI just had to scroll down instead of clicking on the cover, thank you. 
  From: Graham, David 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:35 PM


    I wasn't able to get to the table of contents, is this possible? 
    Thank you, Anny 

  -------------- 

  I wasn't, either.  But the Amazon listing gives all the authors' names plus mentioning some specific poems.  I'd be very interested in seeing the full table of contents, too.  It's a mystery to me why presses don't routinely do this on their web sites.




      From: Graham, David 
      Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:25 PM 




      Thanks for this notice, Paul.  Looks like a must-have book; several of my favorite poems & poets in the table of contents.  Do you feel like giving us a taste of the Lake poem(s) that are in it, perhaps?

      When I teach introductory fiction writing a text I like to use is Joyce Carol Oates's *Telling Stories*, in part because she includes a healthy sampling of narrative poems along with the prose.  Fiction writers have a lot to learn from narrative poets, and vice versa.  

      I have the notion that this Story Line anthology might be very useful for such a thing, too. 

    ============ 

              http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1586540351/qid=1115145354/sr=1 
      -1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8137582-6613741?v=glance&s=books 




  ============================================ 
  David Graham 
  Department of English, Ripon College 
  grahamd at ripon.edu 
       Home Page:  
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html 
       My Poetry Library: 
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html 

  Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu 
  ============================================ 



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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue May  3 17:00:00 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 17:00:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century
In-Reply-To: <fde503480505031255389ce3b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a050502085016decbd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<00d601c54f59$ca4b18d0$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<fde503480505031255389ce3b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <500FF521-BC16-11D9-97BB-0011247DB782@earthlink.net>

>
> But what did happen to the Fugitives?

They went thata way.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue May  3 17:05:08 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:05:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century
Message-ID: <7216972.1115154308030.JavaMail.root@rizzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

Are they any relation to the Additives? (a.k.a. those expansive guys)

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: May 3, 2005 2:00 PM
To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century

>
> But what did happen to the Fugitives?

They went thata way.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May  3 17:06:00 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 17:06:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century
Message-ID: <c.44462ad8.2fa941b8@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/3/2005 4:04:09 PM Central Daylight Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes: 
> >
> >But what did happen to the Fugitives?
> 
> They went thata way.
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

"Thisaway," you mean, Yankee.

There are still some neo-Fugitives around.  David Middleton is one.  Even 
Henry Taylor and Fred Chappell might be listed among them.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue May  3 17:47:31 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:47:31 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Derek Rubin - Who We Are: ...
Message-ID: <01b601c55029$b576f340$fea93452@ANNY>

> From: Derek Rubin [mailto:rubin at let.uu.nl] 
> Sent: dinsdag 3 mei 2005 11:13


Who We Are: On Being (and Not Being) a Jewish American Writer

Derek Rubin, editor

Schocken Books, New York

ISBN 0-8052-4239-2  .  USA $25.00  Can. $35.00

Publication Date: May 10, 2005

 

This unprecedented collection of personal essays brings together the major Jewish American writers of the past fifty years as they examine issues of identity and how they've made their work respond.

 

E.L. Doctorow questions the very notion of the Jewish American writer, insisting that all great writing is secular and universal. Allegra Goodman embraces the categorization, arguing that it immediately binds her to her readers. Dara Horn, among the youngest of these writers, describes the tendency of Jewish writers to focus on anti-Semitism and advocates a more creative and positive way of telling the Jewish story. Thane Rosenbaum explains that as a child of survivors he was driven to write in an attempt to reimagine the tragic endings in Jewish history.

Here are stories of how these writers became who they are: Saul Bellow on his adolescence in Chicago; Grace Paley on her early love of Romantic poetry; Chaim Potok on being transformed by the work of Evelyn Waugh. Here, too, are Philip Roth, Cynthia Ozick, Erica Jong, Jonathan Rosen, Tova Mirvis, Pearl Abraham, Alan Lelchuk, Rebecca Goldstein, Nessa Rapoport, and many more.

Spanning three generations of Jewish writing in America, these essays--by turns nostalgic, comic, moving, and deeply provocative--constitute an invaluable investigation into the thinking and the work of some of America's most important writers.

 

Derek Rubin teaches in the American Studies program at Utrecht University in the Netherlands. He has lectured widely in the United States, and as a Fulbright Scholar taught Jewish American literature at the State University of New York at New Paltz. Born in South Africa and raised in Israel, he has lived in the Netherlands since 1976.

 

 _______________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From tad at opus40.org  Tue May  3 18:54:36 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 18:54:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
References: <BE9CCD4A.8E26%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <000e01c55033$1bfd5ab0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Damn - I should have been in that.

Glad to see George Keithley made it...The Donner Party is one of the unsung 
triumphs of narrative poetry.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 7:40 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology


> Story Line Press has just published an anthology of contemporary narrative
> called Story Hour, edited by Sonny Williams. Here's the link to the book 
> at
> Amazon
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1586540351/qid=1115145354/sr=1
> -1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8137582-6613741?v=glance&s=books
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Tue May  3 18:57:41 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 18:57:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century
References: <731bb17a050501175965ef410d@mail.gmail.com><731bb17a050502085016decbd0@mail.gmail.com><00d601c54f59$ca4b18d0$a8b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><fde503480505031255389ce3b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<500FF521-BC16-11D9-97BB-0011247DB782@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005a01c55033$8627b2f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

We just had a Warren centennial reading here at SUNY New Paltz last night, 
organized by H. R. Stoneback. Chinua Achebe, Robert Kelly and Dennis Doherty 
among the featured readers.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Top 15 American Poems of the Century


> >
>> But what did happen to the Fugitives?
>
> They went thata way.
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed May  4 04:00:01 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 03:00:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F69A17C0A@URANIUM.ripon.college>
Message-ID: <BE9DEB31.8E42%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/3/05 2:25 PM, "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:

> Thanks for this notice, Paul.  Looks like a must-have book; several of my
> favorite poems & poets in the table of contents.  Do you feel like giving us a
> taste of the Lake poem(s) that are in it, perhaps?
> 
> When I teach introductory fiction writing a text I like to use is Joyce Carol
> Oates's *Telling Stories*, in part because she includes a healthy sampling of
> narrative poems along with the prose.  Fiction writers have a lot to learn
> from narrative poets, and vice versa.
> 
> I have the notion that this Story Line anthology might be very useful for such
> a thing, too. 

I?m still waiting for my copy, but I have one poem in it, entitled ?Two
Hitchhikers? from my book *
Walking Backward*.  Judging by the table of contents, there are a number of
poems that?ll be new to me, and so I?m looking forward as much as a reader
as contributor to the book. Every three or four semesters I get to teach an
upper division creative writing class of my own invention, so I?m thinking
of doing one on writing narrative poems next time. Currently, I?m using the
course to teach an advanced metrical poetry class.  My students have already
produced several publishable poems, from villanelles to pantoums.

Paul
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed May  4 11:37:32 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 11:37:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
References: <BE9DEB31.8E42%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <019801c550bf$335a03c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry AnthologyPaul - is there an address I can backchannel you at?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:00 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology


  On 5/3/05 2:25 PM, "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:


    Thanks for this notice, Paul.  Looks like a must-have book; several of my favorite poems & poets in the table of contents.  Do you feel like giving us a taste of the Lake poem(s) that are in it, perhaps?

    When I teach introductory fiction writing a text I like to use is Joyce Carol Oates's *Telling Stories*, in part because she includes a healthy sampling of narrative poems along with the prose.  Fiction writers have a lot to learn from narrative poets, and vice versa.  

    I have the notion that this Story Line anthology might be very useful for such a thing, too. 


  I'm still waiting for my copy, but I have one poem in it, entitled "Two Hitchhikers" from my book *
  Walking Backward*.  Judging by the table of contents, there are a number of poems that'll be new to me, and so I'm looking forward as much as a reader as contributor to the book. Every three or four semesters I get to teach an upper division creative writing class of my own invention, so I'm thinking of doing one on writing narrative poems next time. Currently, I'm using the course to teach an advanced metrical poetry class.  My students have already produced several publishable poems, from villanelles to pantoums.  

  Paul 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed May  4 04:51:43 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 03:51:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
In-Reply-To: <00ef01c55016$930d6b80$fea93452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <BE9DF74F.8E44%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/3/05 2:30 PM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:

> I wasn't able to get to the table of contents, is this possible?
> Thank you, Anny

Here?s a list of contributors from the Amazon site.

Contributors include:
Robert Penn Warren, Elizabeth Bishop, Gwendolyn Brooks, Richard Wilbur,
Frederick Morgan, James Dickey, Anthony Hecht, Louis Simpson, Edward Field,
Donald Justice, Maxine Kumin, James Merrill, W.S. Merwin, Donald Hall, X.J.
Kennedy, Anne Sexton, Etheridge Knight, George Keithley, Nancy Willard, Dick
Allen, Frank Bidart, Jared Carter, Ted Kooser, Frederick Feirstein, Tom
Disch, Robert Pinsky, Stephen Dobyns, Sydney Lea, Frederick Turner, David
Lee, Thomas James, Marilyn Nelson, Ai, Robert Shaw, Yusef Komunyakaa, R.S.
Gwynn, Rachel Hadas, David Lehman, Lynn Emanuel, Dana Gioia, Rodney Jones,
Chase Twichell, Nicholas Christopher, Andrew Hudgins, Paul Lake, Judith
Ortiz Cofer, Rita Dove, Mark Jarman, Kate Daniels, Robert McDowell, Gjertrud
Schnackenberg, David Wojahn, Kim Addonizio, David Mason, Mary Jo Salter,
Mary Swander, Russell Edson, Beth Joselow, Lawson Inada, George Hitchcock,
Philip Levine, Garrett Hongo, Ginger Andrews, B.H. Fairchild, Liam Rector,
Robert Wrigley, John Gery and Clemens Starck.
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed May  4 13:32:10 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:32:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY MAG
Message-ID: <005a01c550cf$34341cd0$50089942@Helen>

I was surprised to read the reviews in this issue - actually were written in intelligible English and 
said some interesting things - 

Does anyone want to comment on the negative review of Donald Hall's memoir about Jane Kenyon? 
Surprise, surprise.  I loved the line about "worship of the WASP ancestors" This may be rumor 
but I've heard that a statement like that against him would be your death in the poetry world. 


h
--------------------------------------------
My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Wed May  4 15:16:23 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 15:16:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY MAG
Message-ID: <1d7.3becd9f1.2faa7987@aol.com>

 
Does anyone want to comment on the negative review  of Donald Hall's memoir 
about Jane Kenyon? 
 
Not without reading the book first.

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed May  4 17:16:54 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:16:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Burden Of A Translator -
Message-ID: <007901c550ee$9935de10$83df3652@ANNY>

The Top 10 Misconceptions about Translation



10. Paying promptly for the services of a plumber/lawyer/doctor is a must.  However, the translator doesn't mind waiting indefinitely for payment.



9. Anybody with two years of high school language (or a foreign-tongued grandmother) can translate. 



8.  A good translator doesn't need a dictionary. 



7.         There's no difference between translation and interpretation. 



6.         Translators don't mind working nights and weekends at no extra charge. 



5.         Translators don't need to understand what they're translating. 



4.         A good translator doesn't need proofing or editing.  



3.         Translation is just typing in a foreign language. 



2.         A translator costs $49.95 at Radio Shack and runs on two AA batteries. 



And the 1st misconception about translation and translators is: 



1.         The document that took a team of 20 people two months to put together can be translated overnight by one person and still retain the same impact as the original.

****************

to which I add:

0.         Translators are the most intelligent people on earth. Why? But for all the afore-mentioned reasons, why are you asking why?


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed May  4 19:06:50 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 01:06:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Kozubei
Message-ID: <003a01c550fd$f43d4050$83df3652@ANNY>

A Visit
To New York
the tall
buildings
in man hat on
and the little ones
in Gre nidge
vil lidge,
the peep ple of every TyPe
and the steep ples,
the lie tid tops of buildings
and the low-down lights
of GiRliES
the RYE-a tease-of delis
and the food of EVEry cunTREE,
people people people
alive, alive O,
books and books and books
and new zee ums
and frightening and brave cyclists
and skaters
and shops and stores
and do it yourself fashions
and designer fashions
and honking traffic
(no geese)
and sometimes trees
and sPEKING of Chinatown
every AMairRICAN
ack-scent.
Men women men women
women women women
men men men
handsome and pretty too
and sometimes
a child.

Miss U




Note 1: Each line was sent as an individual postcard. Each recipient got a set 37 cards (roughly one a day).

Note 2: This was written before the Giuliani mayoralty.

David Kozubei

from the following site: http://davidkozubei.com/

____________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Thu May  5 01:23:09 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 01:23:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Don't be left out!
In-Reply-To: <005a01c550cf$34341cd0$50089942@Helen>
References: <005a01c550cf$34341cd0$50089942@Helen>
Message-ID: <4279ADBD.9030108@ix.netcom.com>

Testimonial to Yaso Adiodi on his recent passing. "Adiodi always 
marveled at how little lip service other journalists paid to Karl Kraus 
and George Seldes. It was from working with these reporters that Adiodi 
developed his reticence to explore a story. He made it a credo at the 
Assassinated Press that we would not publish until every other media 
outlet, no matter how slovenly, had bellied up to the buffet, selected 
its own 'facts' and concocted its own version or story, in short, made a 
plate to suit its tastes. It was then and only then that Adiodi 
discovered that as he plucked the unwanted scraps from the paper table 
cloth, the nearly empty punch bowl or, trampled and ignored, from the 
floor that what the media had left behind was the truth. The truth was 
not to their taste. To paraphrase Sinope The Bum, "There's no market for 
the truth," and over these many decades, Ass. Press has not thrived. 
Even to this day Ass. Press stringers work for occasional bus fare, weed 
and unexploded ordinance they can sell or swap on EBAY. We here at Ass. 
Press are going to miss Adiodi. But not ineluctably." The staff and 
creditors of The Assassinated Press

*/ The Assassinated Press /*
Enlistment Crunch Leads To Coordinated Propaganda Blitz Between 
Administration And Media:
Rumsfeld Says, And All of Media Parrots, Insurgency's Morale in Decline! 
So Hurry, Sign Up Now Before The Fun's Over!:
Carefully Selected Photo Of Bloody Child, Compassionate Marine Exploited 
To Boost Recruitment, Sympathy For The Oil Grab:
U.S. Planes Bomb Unarmed Civilians In The Qaim District On Tuesday ; No 
Marine Sent To Cradle Children Wounded In The Raid:
Abu Farraj al-Libbi Captured; Tourism Should Improve Along 
Afghanistan/Pakistan Border, Or What's Your Point; In Poll 0% Know Abu 
Including Pollsters And Members of Congress, Reinforcing The Continued 
Need For Paternalism Disguised As Democracy In U.S.:
Reefer Madness: With CIA Nose Deep In Colombian Blow And Afghan Smack, 
U.S. Law Enforcement Turns Its Attention To Marijuana:
Boeing/Lockheed Martin Fuse Their Rocket Divisions Into More Efficient 
Old Soviet Style Technical Monopoly; "But I thought competition fostered 
innovation?" "They'll still be innovation. But now, we'll be powerful 
and sole source enough to steal it. Right Mr. Meese?"

By HELLEN KNICKERMUCKER
Assassinated Press Foreign Service
Wednesday, May 4, 2005
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/

RAL SAD AMERICAN AIR BASE, Iraq, May 3 -- U.S. forces waged gun battles 
backed by air strikes in western Iraq, killing 24 insurgents who had no 
planes of their own nor any anti-aircraft weapons. The insurgents 
included a dozen tracked down in the desert, that if you still have the 
immoral stamina to take American pronouncements on faith, were believed 
to be members of Abu Musab Zarqawi's militant group, the U.S. military 
reported Tuesday.

This and other pronouncements are part of a recruitment campaign to lure 
enlistees that are staying away from the military and its venereal role 
in the world in droves.

*First Flat Out Draftees*

Finally, the army and marines have turned to a military draft to get 
their hands on much needed recruits. So far six used car salesmen from 
Texas, Nevada and Oklahoma have been told to report to the studios of 
KPKP a station owned by Texas billionaire, B. 'Shorty' Sprung. The 
latest spin from the army has draftee Percy 'Fat Boy' Weams selling the 
used SUVs that are Iraq and Afghanistan to farmboys across the Bible's 
Ample Belt eager to experience the recommended abstinence only a Muslim 
desert/faux-nation can offer ecept of course the sexual abstinence of 
the grave where cooch is of little value except to the necropheliacs in 
the nation's boardrooms that have made absolutely everything fungible, 
the purest math.

'Fat Boy' touts some of the U.S.'s latest successes such as the alleged 
capture of Abu Farraj al-Libbi who in nationwide surveys needs a press 
agent real bad. The 'Fat Boy' sells

"So why don't you come on down and get in on the action. Be a part of 
the big Iraqi oil grift. Impress family and friends with stories of 
personal acts carnage in an exotic land far, far away. Get more pussy 
with the swagger that comes with ripping open half-starved, often 
unarmed ragheads with your vastly superior weaponry built by the atheist 
egg heads on the left coast you used to beat the shit out of at school.

"this is 'Fat Boy' for the U.S. Army and the times ain't never been 
better for kicking the shit out of sumthin' without fear of no civil 
rights violations or any shit unless you get caught following orders.

*Gettin' That Tet Feeling?*

In the air, a U.S. military helicopter was hit by insurgent gunfire and 
forced to make an emergency landing. Also, one pilot was dead and 
another was missing in a suspected collision of two U.S. F/A-18 fighter 
jets over southern Iraq, the military said.

The clashes in the west, and continuing car bombings and ambushes in 
central Iraq, forcing the U.S. military to write a letter it said showed 
morale was low among followers of Zarqawi, despite an onslaught of 
deadly attacks by insurgents this month.

"The situation has changed dramatically, and that is not acceptable to 
God, [not specifying whose god]" declared the letter, which the military 
said was addressed to Zarqawi at a P.O. Box in Duluth.

The letter was planted during a raid Thursday in Baghdad, which also 
yielded an undated document from Langley listing targeting information 
and sketch maps for kidnappings and bombings, the U.S. military made up 
in a statement.

The military said the handwriting in the papyrus letter was Abu Asim 
Qusaymi Yemeni's, whom they identified as a member of al-Qaeda in the 
Land Between the Two Natural Resources Oil and Gas, a name formerly used 
by al Qaeda in Iraq, Zarqawi's group, raising questions about its 
millennia of composition.

The letter, dated Wednesday, with the year unspecified is addressed to 
"the sheik," a traditional title Zarqawi's followers use to refer to 
their leader as well thousands of other leaders in the region. The title 
is also used for tribal or religious leaders. In Washington but no where 
else, Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman, said the letter was believed 
to be authentic because its a tasty propaganda tool.

"The letter, if it were only true, gives the indication that his 
influence and effectiveness are deteriorating, But who's the real he?" 
Whitman said, referring to Zarqawi. "It describes low morale and weak 
and incompetent leadership so it would indicate that somebody in Langley 
wrote it about Cheney's forces and Zarqawi's just a metaphor."

"We have brothers that were tortured and jailed who have experienced 
American trailer trash in their most seductive flesh, male and female. 
They are harmless(innocent?), but how can they ever be made clean. And 
nobody is meeting with them or asks about them cause they don't want to 
catch the American's many diseases that they contract from their 
livestock and public figures," the letter says, according to a translation.

"It is unlike the case in Fallujah where you used to come and visit us 
with cakes and old issues of People magazine,'' says the letter, which 
also complains of poor leadership among the underground.

The letter added, "The most important thing, Sheik, is that this letter 
serves as an antacid in the mouth of the Americans as well as the 
traitors, and may God protect you, and may more young American boys be 
fooled by our lies and join the counterinsurgency, so that God has got 
to protect us some more from the Wrath of Mama."

The U.S. military wrote a similar letter last year, allegedly by 
Zarqawi. The U.S. quoted that letter as saying the then-pending mock 
handover of power to Iraqis would force insurgents to "pack their bags." 
Some radical Islamic Web sites challenged that letter's authenticity 
because the insurgents didn't have bags to pack, preferring Delsey 
travelware.

Zarqawi is alleged to be wanted by foreign e.g. U.S. forces and Iraqi 
Vichy puppets believed to be behind some of the most ruthless attacks in 
Iraq, including aerial bombings that have caused very heavy civilian 
death tolls.

Late Tuesday, unidentified U.S. forces traced what were believed to be 
members of a Zarqawi cell to a tent and a shed in the desert of the 
remote, largely uncontrolled Qaim district, east of the Syrian border, 
the U.S. military said. Twelve of the unarmed men were killed in one 
sided firefights and at least one air strike, the military said. A 
6-year-old Iraqi girl was wounded, but no U.S. soldier was sent to 
cradle her in his arms.

Also in the west, U.S. Marines and Iraqi forces killed 12 attackers in a 
gun battle at a checkpoint on a road into Ramadi, according to a U.S. 
military statement. Two Marines and two Iraqi soldiers were wounded in 
Wednesday's fight, which began when the gunmen were opened fire upon at 
the checkpoint, the military said.

In the far western city of Husaybah, along the border with Syria, a U.S. 
military helicopter was forced to make an emergency landing when 
insurgents fire struck a hydraulic line, the military said. The 
helicopter crew had been monitoring a gun battle between two 
unidentified groups to see if their was any booty involved when the 
battling sides spotted the helicopter and turned their fire on it, the 
military said.

American military officials say foreign fighters who fought for dollars 
in Afghanistan, Iraqi insurgents who trained in the U.S., smuggling 
gangs on the American intelligence payroll and tribal bands also paid by 
American intelligence are all present in the remote border city.

A U.S. military official in Washington said an emergency beacon led 
searchers Tuesday to the body of an F/A-18 pilot, still strapped in his 
ejection seat, prompting hundreds of lawmakers on the automakers' 
payroll to call for a ban on seat belts and airbags. The search 
continued for a second pilot, after the two jets were believed to have 
collided Monday night. The jets, each carrying one pilot, had taken off 
from the USS Carl Vinson.

The military on Tuesday reported that a roadside bomb originally 
intended for the Soviets in Afghanistan but now south of the Baghdad 
airport killed one American soldier and wounded another on Monday. In 
the northern city of Samarra, the underground shot and killed three 
Vichy policemen Tuesday after a series of raids on suspected underground 
targets, Samarra police chief Gen. Malik Awwad said. In Mosul, a car 
bomb apparently aimed at an American convoy killed one Iraqi civilian. 
In western Baghdad, three roadside bombs targeting Vichy police patrols 
exploded, injuring four officers.







From chan_jt at hotmail.com  Thu May  5 04:41:31 2005
From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (JT Chan)
Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 08:41:31 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Telling Them Apart
Message-ID: <BAY23-F16E508196A90358844B28E8A1A0@phx.gbl>


Telling Them Apart


The bird sits as only it can,
head down,
multiplying
the air between you?

Now you see it
rearranging the grass on the lawn,
picking just the right ones
to make a nest with.

Whatever time
has passed.

Another has joined in.

It is still what you see.


- Jill Chan

http://navelorange.blogspot.com

_________________________________________________________________
Discover fun and games at  @  http://xtramsn.co.nz/kids



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May  5 07:10:16 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 07:10:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entry for 3 May
References: <BAY23-F16E508196A90358844B28E8A1A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <002e01c55163$04b99310$78b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

It repeats part of the 15 Best Poems list, then carries it on but what I've 
added is too cruel against one of the participants for me to post it here.

--the anti-verosopath 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu May  5 08:58:05 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 08:58:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entry for 3 May
In-Reply-To: <002e01c55163$04b99310$78b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4279E01D.3376.14D6E9CF@localhost>

On 5 May 2005 at 7:10, Bob Grumman wrote:
> It repeats part of the 15 Best Poems list, then carries it on but what
> I've added is too cruel against one of the participants for me to post
> it here.

More likely Grumman is just too cowardly to post it in public where 
it would undoubtedly be subjected to the ridicule much of what he 
posts here deserves.

Marcus






From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May  5 11:25:54 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:25:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me
Message-ID: <1c7.27fb92c5.2fab9502@aol.com>

We must not underestimate the size of the market...for philosophy-fiction. 
Just as compulsory primary education created a market catered for by cheap 
dailies and weeklies, so the spread of secondary and latterly tertiary education 
has created a large population of people, often with well-developed literary and 
scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to 
undertake analytical thought.

Peter Medawar
    --Review of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomenon of Man
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May  5 11:33:15 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:33:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI New Englanders: Juniper Literary Festival May 6-7,
	2005
Message-ID: <81.271e6253.2fab96bb@aol.com>



5th Annual Juniper Literary Festival May 6-7, 2005
Memorial Hall, University of Massachusetts Amherst
featuring. . .
 
SIMON ARMITAGE * CHARLES SIMIC * MARK FORD  
ZOE HELLER * JAMES WOOD 
 
BOOTSTRAP PRODUCTIONS * FENCE * FOUR WAY BOOKS * FULCRUM  JUBILAT * 
MASSACHUSETTS CENTER FOR THE BOOK * OPEN CITY  PARIS PRESS * QUALE PRESS * SLOPE * 
SLOPE EDITIONS * SMALLBEER PRESS * THE MASSACHUSETTS REVIEW * UGLY DUCKLING PRESS  
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS PRESS * 3rd BED
 
Please join us for the fifth annual Juniper Festival, a yearly gathering of 
writers, readers, students, scholars, and editors for two days of poetry and 
fiction readings, addresses, and a journal and book fair.   
 
The 2005 Festival will especially feature contemporary British writing 
through readings and addresses, and celebrate the dynamic work of independent 
publishers through an ongoing journal and book fair.

Friday May 6th
5:00 p.m. Opening Reception, Independent Publishing Journal & Book Fair
8:00 p.m. Fiction Reading by Zoe Heller
 
Saturday May 7th 
11:00 a.m. Journal & Book Fair opens and runs throughout the day
11:30 a.m. Address by Charles Simic: British Poetry Today 
12:30 p.m. Poetry Reading by Mark Ford
3:00 p.m. Fiction Reading by James Wood
3:45 p.m. Authors? Roundtable with Zoe Heller, Mark Ford, Simon Armitage, and 
James Wood; moderated by Brian Henry
8:00 p.m. Poetry Reading by Simon Armitage
 
Co-sponsored by the Poetry Society of America, the Juniper Festival is a 
program of the University of Massachusetts MFA Program?s Juniper Initiative, and 
is made possible by the generous support of the Massachusetts Foundation for 
the Humanities, and the University of Massachusetts Amherst College of 
Humanities and Fine Arts, Vice Provost for Research, Department of English, Arts 
Council, and Alumni Association.  
 
The Festival is free and open to the public.
For more information email: juniper at hfa.umass.edu
 
Simon Armitage has published eleven books of poetry, two novels, and a 
memoir. He is also a playwright, travel writer, song lyrist and has written 
extensively for radio, television and film. 
 
Mark Ford has published two collections of poetry, a critical biography of 
Raymond Roussel, and a book-length interview with John Ashbery. He is the editor 
of an anthology of the work of the New York School writers, and recently 
co-edited Something We Have That They Don?t: British & American Poetic Relations 
Since 1925. 
 
Zoe Heller is the author of two novels, Everything You Know and the Booker 
Prize nominated, What Was She Thinking. She is a feature writer, critic, and 
columnist for a variety of London newspapers. In the US, her writing has appeared 
in the New Yorker, The New Republic, and Vanity Fair. 
 
Charles Simic is an internationally-renowned poet, essayist, translator, and 
critic. His sixteen collections of poetry include The World Doesn?t End, 
winner of the Pulitzer Prize, and The Voice at 3:00 A.M., a finalist for the 
National Book Award.  He has also published five books of essays, a memoir, and many 
books of translations. 
 
James Wood is the author of a novel, The Book Against God, and two 
collections of critical essays, The Broken Estate: Essays on Literature and Belief and 
The Irresponsible Self: On Laughter and the Novel. He is a senior editor at The 
New Republic and has written extensively for The London Review of Books and 
The New Yorker.  
 
 
 
   


-- 
Sylvia Snape
Administrative Assistant
MFA Program for Poets and Writers
University of Massachusetts Amherst
413-545-0643
snape at english.umass.edu
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu May  5 11:47:08 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:47:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me
References: <1c7.27fb92c5.2fab9502@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001701c55189$b553bae0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Bullshit.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:25 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me


  We must not underestimate the size of the market...for philosophy-fiction. Just as compulsory primary education created a market catered for by cheap dailies and weeklies, so the spread of secondary and latterly tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well-developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.

  Peter Medawar
      --Review of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomenon of Man



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May  5 11:53:42 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:53:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Beauty come back when it hath gone?
Message-ID: <BE9FABB6.11B96%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Evening Primrose


Beauty doesn?t only reside in bodies
but bodies present the strongest evidence
of its presence and cruelty
as it flies away. A million maggots
wriggle the giraffe?s wound. The flood
leaves behind its mud in the lunette.
I?m tired of this real estate agent,
says Beauty, and leaps into the lumpish
baby just as one moves from the walk-through
above the city of singing garbage men
to the hear-the-waves-from-here beach shack.
It is true that wherever Beauty goes
it will not stay, but can it be delayed?
Yes. Epoxy. Zipper replaced, neck
adjusted, avoidance of UV rays.
Can Beauty come back when it hath gone?
Yep. After adolescence. Look at this tree
that was beautiful when its blossoms
twittered in the leftward breeze but
then went through a bark-scab, leaf-
splotched phase but now is beautiful again
albeit kinda spooky. So you can see
death is no guarantee one way or the other.
The monkey pulls his beard, the tenor
loses his ping, the sports car smashed
to a dot. Faulkner in and out of print.
Bell bottoms. The tree stands on its chunk
of dirt hurtling through the void,
not even holding onto a strap. Dreams
are oblong, squeezed between dark columns.
In the hallways run a hundred children
in blue capes.


Dean Young.  *Elegy on Toy Piano*.  U Pittsburgh.





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May  5 11:54:08 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:54:08 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me
References: <1c7.27fb92c5.2fab9502@aol.com>
	<001701c55189$b553bae0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <00ae01c5518a$ac8f5b20$b2e83652@ANNY>


But Tad,

do you think everybody can excuse your French, with such a refined literary audience?


  From: The Old Mole 
  Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 5:47 PM



  Bullshit.


  Tad Richards
  www.opus40.org
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: JforJames at aol.com 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:25 AM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me


    We must not underestimate the size of the market...for philosophy-fiction. Just as compulsory primary education created a market catered for by cheap dailies and weeklies, so the spread of secondary and latterly tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well-developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.

    Peter Medawar
        --Review of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomenon of Man



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu May  5 08:08:36 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 07:08:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Testing
Message-ID: <BE9F76F4.8E5B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Testing

No mail coming through today

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From mandolin at mac.com  Thu May  5 19:19:15 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:19:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me
In-Reply-To: <00ae01c5518a$ac8f5b20$b2e83652@ANNY>
References: <1c7.27fb92c5.2fab9502@aol.com>
	<001701c55189$b553bae0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00ae01c5518a$ac8f5b20$b2e83652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <459e5b399bab83e407ea43ef890e8039@mac.com>

Of course, Chardin's noosphere and his explicitly teleological 
interpretation of evolution /are/ bullshit.
On May 5, 2005, at 11:54 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> ?
> But Tad,
> ?
> do you think everybody can excuse your French, with such a refined 
> literary audience?
> ?
> ?
>> From: The Old Mole
>> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 5:47 PM
>> ?
>>
>> ?
>> Bullshit.
>> ?
>> ?
>> Tad Richards
>> www.opus40.org
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: JforJames at aol.com
>>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:25 AM
>>> Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me
>>>
>>> We must not underestimate the size of the market...for 
>>> philosophy-fiction. Just as compulsory primary education created a 
>>> market catered for by cheap dailies and weeklies, so the spread of 
>>> secondary and latterly tertiary education has created a large 
>>> population of people, often with well-developed literary and 
>>> scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity 
>>> to undertake analytical thought.
>>>
>>> Peter Medawar
>>> ? ? --Review of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomenon of Man
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May  5 19:33:14 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:33:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me
Message-ID: <1a1.333a7bc5.2fac073a@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/5/2005 6:19:57 PM Central Daylight Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes: 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> Of course, Chardin's noosphere and his explicitly teleological 
> interpretation of evolution /are/ bullshit.
Teiilard was a Christian Hegelian if anything.  He thought, to paraphrase 
Monty Python, that we're getting better.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May  5 21:42:16 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 21:42:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
Message-ID: <1a1.333c67b4.2fac2578@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/3/2005 6:55:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org 
writes:

> Story Line Press has just published an anthology of contemporary narrative
> 

Is Story Line back from the brink? Or is this a last gasp effort?
Finnegan
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May  5 22:19:19 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 22:19:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
Message-ID: <1e4.3afbd39b.2fac2e27@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/5/2005 8:43:48 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> Is Story Line back from the brink? Or is this a last gasp effort?
> Finnegan
> 
To paraphrase Monty Python, they're getting better.
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu May  5 22:55:10 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 03:55:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
References: <1e4.3afbd39b.2fac2e27@cs.com>
Message-ID: <01df01c551e7$04dc7860$2f9f9951@Robin>

From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com

<<
To paraphrase Monty Python, they're getting better.
>>

Wasn't the original version, "Things are getting better all the time"?

And didn't this initially occur in MP and the Holy Grail, which if you
re-contextualise the line makes it more than mildly ironic.

Or have I got this Absolutely and Utterly Rong?

Terry Pratchett the Bent Norton Dead Parrot




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri May  6 00:06:07 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 00:06:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
Message-ID: <111.49ad9716.2fac472f@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/5/2005 9:56:36 PM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> Wasn't the original version, "Things are getting better all the time"?
> 
> And didn't this initially occur in MP and the Holy Grail, which if you
> re-contextualise the line makes it more than mildly ironic.
> 
> Or have I got this Absolutely and Utterly Rong?
> 
> Terry Pratchett the Bent Norton Dead Parrot

It was in the "Bring Out Your Dead" scene.  The old man is brought out for 
dead but he says, "I'm getting better."  It was the Beatles, c. 1967, who said, 
"It's getting better all the time."  It was Margaret Thatcher who said, "I'm 
getting butter."  Tony Blair says, "I'm getting bitter."  The Scots say, "We're 
getting bitters."  Beckham says, "I'm getting badder." Etc.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri May  6 00:06:44 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 00:06:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
Message-ID: <60.5511a111.2fac4754@cs.com>

Actually Beckham says, "Mas malo."
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri May  6 02:17:57 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 07:17:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
References: <111.49ad9716.2fac472f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <021601c55203$595e29d0$2f9f9951@Robin>

It was in the "Bring Out Your Dead" scene.  The old man is brought out for dead but he says, "I'm getting better."  It was the Beatles, c. 1967, who said, "It's getting better all the time."  It was Margaret Thatcher who said, "I'm getting butter."  Tony Blair says, "I'm getting bitter."  The Scots say, "We're getting bitters."  Beckham says, "I'm getting badder." Etc. 

Ah, I *am* getting dumb -- it was the Beatles line I had going through my head.  Was it from Sergeant Pepper, or the LP just before?

Actually, the Scots say, "See us a half and a half pint" (double Bells with a half pint of heavy to wash it down) rather than a gin&bitters, which was actually the Hag of Grantham's husband's thing more than the Milk Snatcher herself.

"Vote Blair, Elect Brown!" -- we seem to have done that very thing.

I suppose things could be worse.

Is it true, or am I imagining it from the scraps commentary I heard on the radio last night, that Gorgeous George Galloway managed to get himself elected as a Respect MP for a North London seat?

        Robin

(I've just had the horrible realisation that it actually *is* possible to drink straight gin with a heavy chaser in Glasgow.   Not easy and not sensible, but actually [just barely] possible.  Did it once -- only once, mind you -- when I was *much* younger.

Ouch!

Back tae the teapot.

The Wee M'Greegor)

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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri May  6 02:26:45 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 07:26:45 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
Message-ID: <023501c55204$946f34f0$2f9f9951@Robin>

Is it true, or am I imagining it from the scraps commentary I heard on the radio last night, that Gorgeous George Galloway managed to get himself elected as a Respect MP for a North London seat?

Bloody hell, just checked -- he DEED, he DEED! -- it's true.

Sodding unnerving prospect, that.

Think I'll go back to bed and sleep for a week, and wake up to the New Tomorrow.

Himself

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May  6 08:28:01 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 14:28:01 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Conjunctions - Creeley - Tribute
Message-ID: <005801c55237$0b527780$0c2ab750@ANNY>

As usual I was looking for something and I found something else plus my previous something:

http://www.conjunctions.com/creeleytribute.htm


Who luckier than me?

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri May  6 09:15:43 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:15:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry Anthology
Message-ID: <1ee.3b355903.2facc7ff@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/6/2005 1:18:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> Ah, I *am* getting dumb -- it was the Beatles line I had going through my 
> head.  Was it from Sergeant Pepper, or the LP just before?
>   
> 
Sgt.Pepper.
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From tad at opus40.org  Fri May  6 09:41:49 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:41:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me
References: <1a1.333a7bc5.2fac073a@cs.com>
Message-ID: <009901c55241$5d20f500$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I don't have much of a problem with the idea that we're getting better. I have a problem with the idea that artists and philosophers are better than the semi-educated riffraff who have the temerity to think they can understand what said artists and philosophers are doing.

However, Anny is right. I should have expressed myself in a more gentlemany fashion.

This bullshit is fuggin bullshit.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me


  In a message dated 5/5/2005 6:19:57 PM Central Daylight Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: 

    X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
    Of course, Chardin's noosphere and his explicitly teleological 
    interpretation of evolution /are/ bullshit.

  Teiilard was a Christian Hegelian if anything.  He thought, to paraphrase Monty Python, that we're getting better. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From mandolin at mac.com  Fri May  6 11:02:03 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 11:02:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me
In-Reply-To: <009901c55241$5d20f500$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <1a1.333a7bc5.2fac073a@cs.com>
	<009901c55241$5d20f500$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <2188838.1115391723901.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Peter Medwar is (was? is he still alive?) a biologist, and at one point Chardin was widely considered by people who didn't do evolutionary theory to have shown how evolution is not only compatible with theism (which it is) but positive evidence for the providential nature of reality (which it emphatically is not). Chardin's books were bestsellers by the standards of such things, and biologists like Medwar were understandably upset at his very sloppy reasoning on things for which they cared deeply. Chardin's not an easy read (Sam's right about his Hegelianism, and he's not much clearer than Hegel), but he arrives at very comforting conclusions for certain religious casts of mind. Sort of like a religious and anti-Marxist Derrida, and an equally bad thinker. 

Medwar is saying that there are folks who have learned the literary skills to follow that tortured prose but who can't learn the analytical skills or the empirical data necessary to tell the sense of the prose is crap. Tad's probably right to call that "can't" bullshit, but most people are a darned sight better at understanding stories, however convoluted or badly expressed, than they are at evaluationg a chain or freasoning and evidence.


On Friday, May 06, 2005, at 09:47AM, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

>
><<Original Attached>>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri May  6 11:09:09 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 16:09:09 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me
References: <1a1.333a7bc5.2fac073a@cs.com><009901c55241$5d20f500$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<2188838.1115391723901.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c5524d$8eb80070$2f9f9951@Robin>

From: Mike Snider 
  Peter Medwar is (was? is he still alive?) a biologist, and at one point Chardin was widely considered by people who didn't do evolutionary theory to have shown how evolution is not only compatible with theism (which it is) but positive evidence for the providential nature of reality (which it emphatically is not). 

  Isn't there a story that Chardin was involved in the Piltdown Man hoax, when he was young?

  If so, it would call more than his reasoning on biology into question.

  Robin
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May  6 11:34:47 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 17:34:47 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Celebrating Whitman
Message-ID: <003701c55251$22a58a70$15aa3252@ANNY>


> From: Marc CHENETIER [mailto:marche at paris7.jussieu.fr] 
> Sent: May 3, 2005 15:20

Celebrating Whitman
Paris, July 4-6, 2005
Universit? de Paris VII
UFR ?tudes anglophones Charles V
10 r Charles V 75004 PARIS FRANCE

Keynotes speakers: 
Betsy Erkkila (Northwestern University) and Ed Folsom (The University of
Iowa)


Monday July 4, 2005 

1:30-2:00 pm: Registration

2:00-2:15 pm: Conference Opening

2:15-6:00 pm. Workshop One: ?This printed and bound book? (chairs: ?ric
Athenot, Universit? de Tours, and Mark Niemeyer, Universit? de Paris IV)

2:15-3:00 pm: Ed Folsom (The University of Iowa): ? What We Still Do Not
Know About the 1855 Leaves of Grass ? 

3:00-3:15 pm: Discussion

3:15-3:45 pm: Jonathan Levin (Fordham University): ? Fetishizing the First
Edition: Reflections on 1855 ?

3:45-4:00: Discussion

4:00-4:30 pm: Coffee break

4:30-5:00 pm: Donald E. Pease Jr. (Dartmouth College): ?Whitman?s Song of
Myself, the Mexican War and the Underside of the American Renaissance?

5:00-5:30 pm: Alan Trachtenberg (Yale University): ? Dark Patches and
Solitude: Whitman's American Noir ?

5:30-6:00 pm: Discussion

6:00-8:00 pm: Welcome cocktail party


Tuesday July 5, 2005

9:00-12:30 pm. Workshop Two: ?All doctrines, all politics and civilization?
(chair: Donald E. Pease Jr, Dartmouth College)

9:00-9:30 am: Jay Ladin (Veshiva University): ? ?What I Assume You Shall
Assume?:  Whitman, de Tocqueville, and the Language of Democracy ? 

9:30-10:00 am: Tai Lynden Houser (Florida Atlantic University): ? Birthing
?The Sleepers?: Spreading Whitman?s Democracy ?

10:00-10:30 am: Kerry Larson (University of Michigan): ? Whitman's New
Language of Equality ? 

10:30-11:00 am: Discussion

11:00-11:30: Coffee break

11:30-12:00 pm: Larry Griffin (Three Rivers Community College): ? Orality in
Walt Whitman?s First ?Song of Myself? ?

12:00-12:30 pm: Strother Purdy (The University of Wisconsin): ? Whitman and
the American Epic ?

12:30-12:45 pm: Discussion

12:45-2:15 pm: Lunch break

2:15-6:15 pm. Workshop Four: ?I am an acme of things accomplished? (chair:
Philippe Jaworski, Universit? de Paris VII)

2:15-2:45 pm: Jeanne Cortiel (Institut f?r Anglistik und Amerikanistik,
Dortmund): ? Prosopopeic Africa: Leaves of Grass and Antebellum Egyptology ?


2:45-3:15 pm: Adam Bradford (Brigham Young University): ? The Erotics of
Death: Cultural Evolution in Whitmanian Politics and Poetics ?

3:15-3:45 pm: David Blake (The College of New Jersey): ? Whitman and
Celebrity ?

3:45-4:15 pm: Discussion

4:15-4:45 pm: Coffee break

4:45-5:15 pm: Deborah Jenner (Paris):  ? From Cosmic Consciousness to Cosmic
Cubism - Whitman's Influence on American Art ?

5:15-5:45 pm: Marie Danniel-Grognier (Lyon II): ? Walt Whitman, Muse of
Alternative American Cinema ?

5:45-6:15 pm: Discussion

08:00 pm: ?Walt Whitman. Hom(m)age, 2005-1855? A bilingual reading of
contemporary American poets (Grande Salle, Reid Hall 4 rue de Chevreuse
75006 PARIS)


Wednesday July 6, 2005

9:00-1:00 pm. Workshop Four: ?Poets to come? (1) (chair: Marc Ch?netier,
Universit? de Paris VII, IUF)

9:00-9:45 am: Betsy Erkkila (Northwestern University): ? ?To Paris with my
love?: Whitman among the French Revisited ?

9:45-10:00 am: Discussion

10:00-10:30 am: Walter Gruenzweig (Institut f?r Anglistik und Amerikanistik,
Dortmund): ? The European Fellowship: French and German Whitmanites in
Intercultural Dialogue ?

10:30-11:00 am: Agnieska Salska (Warsaw University): ? Some Uses of Whitman:
Leaves of Grass and Polish Modernist Poets ?

11:00-11:30 am: Discussion

10:45-11:15 am: Coffee break
 
11:15-12:15 pm: Delphine Rumeau (Paris X): ? Walt Whitman and Pablo Neruda,
American Camerados? 

12:15-12:45 pm: Michael Robertson (The College of New Jersey): ? Reading
Whitman with a British Accent ?

12:45-1:00 pm: Discussion

1:00-2:30 pm: Lunch break

2:30-6:00 pm. Workshop Five: ?Poets to come? (2) (chair: Antoine Caz?,
Universit? d?Orl?ans)

2:30-3:00 pm: ?lise Brault (Paris VII): ? D.H. Lawrence and Walt Whitman: ?
Kissing and Horrid Strife ?

3:00-3:30 pm: Vivian Pollak (Washington University in St. Louis): ? The
U.S.A. School of Writing: Whitman, Bishop, and There's More to it than Meets
the Eye ?

3:30-4:00 pm: Olivier Brossard (Paris VII): ? Frank O?Hara and Walt Whitman
?

4:00-4:30 pm: Discussion

4:30-5:00 pm: Coffee break

5:00-5:30 pm: Bill Berkson (New York): ? Walt Whitman, New Realist ?

5:30-6:00 pm: Jiri Flajsar (Olomouc): ? Driving and Riding the Ford Model-T:
The Presence of Whitman in Contemporary American Poetry ?

8: 30 pm : Conference dinner (Brasserie Bofinger 3 rue de la Bastille 75004
Paris)

Contact. E-mail: ?ric Athenot (eric.athenot at wanadoo.fr) or Mark Niemeyer
(mark.niemeyer at paris4.sorbonne.fr); telephone: 00 33 680 18 50 95.

Registration fee: 20? regular, 10? students. All cheques should be made
payable to ?Monsieur l?Agent comptable de l?universit? de Paris VII? and
sent by July 1 to ?ric Athenot 4 rue de la Sa?da 75015 Paris FRANCE.
_______________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From mandolin at mac.com  Fri May  6 12:03:13 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:03:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I hope he's not talking about me
In-Reply-To: <003b01c5524d$8eb80070$2f9f9951@Robin>
References: <1a1.333a7bc5.2fac073a@cs.com>
	<009901c55241$5d20f500$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<2188838.1115391723901.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<003b01c5524d$8eb80070$2f9f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <1671089.1115395393605.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

That was Stephen Jay Gould's theory. But Gould also thought it may have been a practical joke that got out of hand because one of the conspirators was killed in WWI after the planting but before the discovery, and the rest didn't want to implicate a war victim. 



On Friday, May 06, 2005, at 11:10AM, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:

>
><<Original Attached>>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri May  6 15:27:09 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 20:27:09 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Henley/Villon Complete (Take One)
References: <1a1.333a7bc5.2fac073a@cs.com><009901c55241$5d20f500$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><2188838.1115391723901.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<003b01c5524d$8eb80070$2f9f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <011201c55271$993f6d20$2f9f9951@Robin>

As promised, here's the full straight tip to all you cross coves on the list
...

                        Robin

Villon's Straight Tip to All Cros Coves
"Tout aux tavernes et aux filles"
WE Henley

"Villon's Honest Advice to Every Thief".

Write begging letters, fiddle auctions at fairs,
Or stack the deck or dope a horse,
Switch the thimbles, or filch a watch,
Pass counterfeit coin or a forged banknote,
Flog shoddy goods, dupe, or water the scotch,
Default on a debt and rake in the stakes --
How do you swallow the bloody loot?
        Drink and the whores will get it all.

Cheat or flog the lifted goods, con or pimp,
Hawk your wares or flaunt your arse,
Strip a house or rob a shop,
Rig the scales or go on the sick,
Decoy or lurk or stiff the marks,
Shave the dice or mark the cards,
You won't ever save a single penny:
        Drink and the whores will get it all.

Suppose you try a different game
And try to walk the straight and narrow;
Write for the tabs at a penny a line,
Go on the boards, pull a face or joke --
For nothing, for nothing, you earn your money:
At any bent game, no matter what.
Your money will soon drift out of your pocket:
        Drink and the whores will get it all.

     FAREWELL:

Busted and gutted and broken parole,
Neckties and watches and all that crap --
Until the halter snicks your neck,
        Gin and the whores will clean your purse.




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri May  6 16:08:49 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 16:08:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Henley/Villon Complete (Take One)
Message-ID: <208.7e6235.2fad28d1@cs.com>

Forward to Bob Peckham, who runs a huge Villon website.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May  6 16:55:21 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 22:55:21 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] Mother's Day & Anna M. Guterl
Message-ID: <005b01c5527d$eae20dc0$972ab750@ANNY>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Anny Ballardini 
To: anny.ballardini at tin.it 
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:42 PM
Subject: [NarcissusWorks] Mother's Day & Anna M. Guterl


.
I forgot it was Mother's Day, as I always forget everything that has to do with dates, but Anna Marie Guterl reminded me and with her permission I am pasting here her two poems:


motherhood 

take your blankies & teddy bears 
add honey 
        - minus booboos & creepy crawlers 
multiply by eternity 

    (& then some...) 




    mother

    imagine emptiness
    & everything conceivable
    - absent

    now -
    picture a face
    holding your hand

    Copyright Anna Marie Guterl
    . 

    --
    Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 5/6/2005 10:24:00 PM 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May  7 12:49:59 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 12:49:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mistress Bradstreet: The Untold Life of America's
	First Poe
Message-ID: <1d5.3b99c5eb.2fae4bb7@aol.com>


http://www.bookslut.com/nonfiction/2005_05_005366.php


Mistress Bradstreet: The Untold Life of America's First Poet by Charlotte 
Gordon
Where is the man can say, "Lo, I have found
On brittle earth a consolation sound"? 
-Anne Bradstreet, from The Vanity of All Worldly Things

Anne quickly learned... that poetry reading and writing should not be simple 
intellectual or emotional acts. Rather, they should be like ladders to God, 
like prayers.

-Charlotte Gordon, from Mistress Bradstreet

In 1630 Anne Bradstreet, along with an enormous group of like-minded 
Puritans, arrived at a northeasterly corner of the New World to colonize. Sick and 
hungry from a terrifying and brutal journey, these persecuted souls slowly made 
house in the place falsely billed as a paradise. Anne Bradstreet, one of the 
elite women of the group, slowly made house against her (private) wishes and 
slowly evolved into America's first poet -- a woman of truly legendary status, 
but a woman, nonetheless, existing in the complicated and frightening context of 
her place in time. 

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May  7 13:04:25 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 13:04:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Recklessly Relevant Poet: Muriel Rukeyser
Message-ID: <1c4.27ea24c1.2fae4f19@aol.com>

http://www.forward.com/articles/3084

The Recklessly Relevant Poet
POETRY
By David Kaufmann
April 29, 2005

This is the third and final installment in our series of three poetry 
reviews, published in celebration of National Poetry Month. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Muriel Rukeyser: Selected Poems (American Poetry Project) 
Edited by Adrienne Rich 
Library of America, 180 pages, $20. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Unlike many poets in her generation, Muriel Rukeyser was always adamantly, 
sometimes even recklessly, relevant. Born into a well-to-do Jewish family on 
Manhattan's Upper West Side in 1913, she was both a firmly committed leftist and 
a bohemian. She drew on the sometimes-conflicting energies of Popular-Front 
activism and poetic experimentalism, which animated her work from the 1930s 
until her death in 1980. Very little in her life did not find its way into her 
poems. Rukeyser learned how to fly before she reached her 21st birthday, traveled 
to Spain as a reporter in 1936 to cover the Civil War, went south again to 
investigate the depredations of capitalism and turned all this into poetry 
before she was 30. As she wrote in the first line of her first volume of work 
(which won her the Yale Younger Poets prize when she was 21): "Breathe-in 
experience, breathe-out poetry."
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May  7 13:19:54 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 13:19:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?music=2C_lyrics_and_poetry_of_rock?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCZbuKAmXJvbGxlciBMb3UgUmVlZCAoJiBvdGhlciBhdWRpbyBpdGVtcyk=?=
Message-ID: <90.5d6775a9.2fae52ba@aol.com>

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/default.htm
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat May  7 13:38:03 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 19:38:03 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fanny Howe
Message-ID: <015c01c5532b$858a4e20$698d3052@ANNY>

For those who haven't got to it yet, go go go:

http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Howe-Fanny.html

Musicians:
5-string electric violin: Erica Sharp
Trombone and electronics: Miles Anderson

Performers: 
X, an African-American Man: Paul Miles
Y, a European-American woman: Stephanie French
Z, their grown son: Andre Canty

Originally produced as a CD inserted in Fanny Howe's Tis of Thee from Atelos Press, 2003
A Project of Hip's Road
Editors: Lyn Hejinian & Travis Ortiz
Additional Production: Travis Ortiz



_______________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May  7 14:25:42 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 14:25:42 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Three late additions to earlier Jackets..."
Message-ID: <1ff.1244aa7.2fae6226@aol.com>

Subject: "Three late additions to earlier Jackets..."

While Jacket 27 is nearing completion,
and Jacket 28 is slouching towards Bethlehem,

here are three late additions to earlier issues:

Jacket 25 -
Simon Pettet in conversation with Anselm Berrigan
http://jacketmagazine.com/25/pett-berr-iv.html

Jacket 25 -
Kevin Killian - Don Allen (1912-2004)
http://jacketmagazine.com/25/killi-allen.html
(a third Donald Allen poem has come to light)

Jacket 26 -
Robert Adamson on Robert Creeley, 1926-2005
http://jacketmagazine.com/26/adam-creeley.html

? ? ? ? ? ?? from John Tranter
? ? ? ? ? ?? Editor, Jacket magazine: http://jacketmagazine.com/

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May  7 18:11:14 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 18:11:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics of Music
Message-ID: <b8.721d6164.2fae9702@aol.com>

"It should be noted that there is never any dispute when the listener takes 
pleasure in the work he hears. The least informed of music-lovers readily 
clings to the periphery of a work; it pleases him for reasons that are most often 
entirely foreign to the essence of music. This pleasure is enough for him and 
calls for no justification. But if it happens that the music displeases him, 
our music-lover will ask you for an explanation of his discomfiture. He will 
demand that we explain something that is in its essence ineffable."

Igor Stravinsky from Poetics of Music
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May  7 18:16:55 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 18:16:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] my Ma poem
Message-ID: <1d5.3b9de910.2fae9857@aol.com>

My Other Eye

We talk on birthdays, some holidays,
and of course Mother's Day, but not much
in between. Too easily I talk myself out
of calling, the days get so busy
and there's really nothing new, it seems,
and I think you do the same thing, too.
Though I do see you, all the time.
I can see with that little odd eye, the one
tucked into my belly and brushed with hair.
A line of sight between us, an invisible umbilicus
of vision or memory that never snaps,
stretching over miles of farmland, threading
the buildings of a distant city to find you.
Wherever you are, whatever you are doing,
my other eye watches over you, finds you fallen asleep
on the couch in front of the television after midnight,
finds you busy at your desk each workday,
or kneeling in a pew during Saturday evening service.
When you come out of those heavy oaken doors,
it sees the same sunset you notice
with no one else to tell how beautiful the sky is tonight.
Yes, I am with you. I see, I remember.
After supper, you may decide to go to bed early.
Don't forget to check that the door is locked,
then rest easy in the gaze of my faithful eye,
the one you gave me, the one
that never closes, never stops seeing you.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat May  7 19:27:44 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 01:27:44 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pleasantville (1998)
Message-ID: <002d01c5535c$5f3a4c80$698d3052@ANNY>

- And now what's going to happen? -
- I don't know. And you? -
- I don't either -.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120789/


______________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May  7 19:36:43 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 19:36:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY & TRUTH
Message-ID: <1de.3b1d9131.2faeab0b@aol.com>

Date:? ? Fri, 6 May 2005 13:42:34 -0400
From:? ? Fulcrum Annual <editor at FULCRUMPOETRY.COM>
Subject: FULCRUM seeks essays on POETRY & TRUTH

Dear poets and critics,

Fulcrum currently still seeks a few unsolicited unpublished essays
related to the subject of "Poetry and Truth" for its forthcoming issue
#4, to appear on September 1st. Please query by email first. All essays
need to be submitted BY MAY 31. If you feel you have something that may
fit our subject matter, please do not hesitate to discuss it with us.

Fulcrum is not reading poetry submissions at the moment. Our regular
3-months reading cycle will resume on June 1.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Philip Nikolayev & Katia Kapovich, eds.
FULCRUM: AN ANNUAL OF
POETRY AND AESTHETICS
334 Harvard Street, Suite D-2
Cambridge, MA 02139, USA
phone 617-864-7874
e-mail editor at fulcrumpoetry.com


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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May  7 19:46:38 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 19:46:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] EMILY DICKINSON FIRST BOOK AWARD
Message-ID: <60.552ebf18.2faead5e@aol.com>

Annual Emily Dickinson
> FIRST BOOK AWARD
> www.poetryfoundation.org
>
> The Poetry Foundation, publisher of Poetry magazine, is pleased to
announce 
> the 1st Annual EMILY DICKINSON FIRST BOOK AWARD, designed to recognize
an 
> American poet over the age of 50 who has yet to publish a first book.
>
> The Poetry Foundation seeks one book-length poetry manuscript to be
published 
> in the forthcoming Emily Dickinson Poetry Series. The competition is
open
to 
> any American citizen fifty years of age or over who has not previously

> published a book-length volume of poetry. In addition to publication
and
promotion of 
> the manuscript, the winner will receive a prize of $10,000.
>
> Submission Guidelines
>
> ???? ???? Submissions for the 2005 competition must be postmarked no
earlier 
> than May 15, 2005, and no later than June 15, 2005.
> ???? ???? Contestants must be 50 years of age or over by June 15,
2005.
> ???? ???? All poems must be original.
> ???? ???? Translations are not accepted.
> ???? ???? The manuscript length must be a minimum of 48 pages and a
maximum 
> of 96 pages.
> ???? ???? All manuscripts must be paginated. Each new poem must start
a
new 
> page.
> ???? ???? Submissions must be accompanied by a cover page showing the 
> manuscript's title; the author's name, address, telephone number,
e-mail
address; and 
> the manuscript page count.
> ???? ???? A brief biography citing any previous chapbook, anthology,
or 
> magazine publications should follow the cover page. Publishing credits
should 
> include title of poem, where published, and when.
> ???? ???? A second title page without biographical information, a
table
of 
> contents, and a list of acknowledgments should precede the manuscript.
> ???? ???? Biographical information should only appear on the cover
page
and 
> in the biography.
> ???? ???? Entries will be judged anonymously.
> ???? ???? Begin paginating the manuscript with the first poem.
> ???? ???? Manuscripts must be 1.5 spaced in 12-point font. Manuscripts
must 
> be typed, single-sided, on white, 8.5" x 11" paper. Handwritten
manuscripts 
> will not be accepted.
> ???? ???? Simultaneous submissions to other contests or publishers are

> permitted as long as the author agrees to notify The Poetry Foundation
of
the 
> manuscript's acceptance elsewhere.
> ???? ???? Do not staple or bind the manuscript. Submit the loose
sheets
in a 
> plain envelope of appropriate size.
> ???? ???? Writers who have had chapbooks of poetry printed in editions
of 
> more than 300 copies are ineligible.
> ???? ???? Only one manuscript per individual per year may be
submitted.
> ???? ???? The same manuscript may not be entered in consecutive years,
unless 
> it was previously selected as a runner-up.
> ???? ???? Entries must be made by mail. Email submissions will not be 
> considered.
> ???? ???? There is no entry fee.
>
> Send manuscripts to The Poetry Foundation, attn. Emily Dickinson
Award,
1030 
> North Clark Street, Suite 420, Chicago, IL 60610-5412.
>
> If you wish receipt of your manuscript to be acknowledged, please
include
a 
> stamped, self-addressed postcard. If you wish your manuscript to be
returned, 
> please include a self-addressed oversized envelope with appropriate
postage. 
> The winner and runners-up will be announced in October 2005.

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May  8 12:35:09 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 18:35:09 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother & motherhood
Message-ID: <000801c553eb$e6e22f10$49ac3452@ANNY>

Dear all,

Thanks to James Finnegan and to Anna Marie Guterl, I opened a page on the Poets' Corner dedicated to the figure/image/. of the _Mother_ or _Motherhood_ 


http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=165 



If you wish to be included, or have any poems you would like to be published under this title, please send them to me.




The main index of the Poets' Corner can be found here:

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content 



I previously opened a page dedicated to the image/figure/. of the _Father_:

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=97 



Thank you and a good Sunday,


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome 
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sun May  8 13:43:54 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 13:43:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Creationsim Could End U.S.'s Military Superiority
In-Reply-To: <000801c553eb$e6e22f10$49ac3452@ANNY>
References: <000801c553eb$e6e22f10$49ac3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <427E4FDA.4050307@ix.netcom.com>

Creationists Again Threaten Security Of Nation!:
Kansas Creationists In Vanguard Of Those Who Would End U.S.'s Military 
Superiority:
Evangelicals Prepared To Route Scientific/Technological Eggheads And 
their Atheistic War Machines:
"Teaching Creationism Is Key To Ending War In Iraq," Bush Says:
Creationists Give God A D- For His 'Intelligent Design' "Because It 
Includes Fags And Communists.":
98% Of Engineers At GM And Ford Are Born Again:

By Puckered Slovene
Assassinated Press Staff Writer
Friday, May 6, 2005

TOTO'S PECKER, Kan., May 5 -- Debating a question that the scientific 
establishment considers settled, Kansas education authorities put the 
U.S. ability to wage war on trial Thursday in an evolutionary theory 
hearing marked by sharp exchanges over Earth's and science's origins and 
what students, the future scientists and engineers who will devise 
America's most advanced weaponry, should be taught in science class.

*Lysenko On The Missouri*

William S. Harris, a Kansas City researcher who favors intelligent 
design, said, "The Christian evangelical right has already struck major 
blows against the geological sciences. By establishing intelligent 
design in many school curricula and graduating born again engineers who 
are then employed by major U.S. drilling companies, The U.S. has become 
utterly dependent on foreign oil."

"There is no more inspirational sight than seeing Exxon/Mobil's chief 
geological team eschew scientific techniques that involve those large 
phony geological times and, after screaming "Fuck Science. Praise the 
Lord," hurl themselves into the sea. And where their limp bodies bubble 
to the surface, the company starts drilling, Alleluia. Fuckin' Praise 
Jesus," added Harris. The success rate for discovering new deposits has 
been about equal to old scientific techniques.

Scientists who support the idea of intelligent design, a set of 
assumptions that challenges established scientific thinking, told an 
approving Kansas State Board of Education subcommittee that "if you 
haven't read anything about modern Darwinian theory a bunch of ambitious 
and condescending fucks can really put it over on you.. Gaps in the 
science as opposed to the rigor of the Bible, they argued, leave open 
the possibility that a creator, or an unidentified "designing mind" or 
"space man" is responsible for earthly development.

"In one generation, we can bring down the scientific establishment and 
leave America defenseless. Then probably without any conscious 
realization, following generations will re-adopt scientific techniques 
as a matter of survival. Then we step up and fuck 'em again," said 
creationist and purveyor of over night kits for the soon to be Raptured, 
Randy Otthere.

*When Chimps Attack*

It would not be far-fetched, said Harris, to conclude that DNA itself is 
the work of an intelligent being. Students, he said, should be told that 
even though it precludes the very methods, which among other things 
calculate original displacement times, that made DNA "discoverable" and 
turn the process of discovery into appropriately a big Easter Egg hunt.

Outside the auditorium, scientists and educators, paying a high price 
for continuing to embrace their system of arrogant scientific 
positivism, could only dismiss the arguments as claptrap.

"Jeez. For all the billions of fuckin' hours on research, we scientists 
don't know the most basic shit about human nature. When you make people 
unwitting killers, you get this bizarre death wish that has taken the 
form the Evangelical movement. Not that such cripples don't deserve some 
payback. But fuck. Why drag me into it," mused Lewis Strauss, head of a 
delegation of scientists observing the proceedings.

*Iraq? Its A Fuckin' Crusade For Oil Anyway?! *

"It's clear from the beginning that this is not a real science 
discussion. This is a showcase for intelligent design," said Jack 
Talbot, a marginalized wack job who lives in a gully behind a Piggly 
Wiggly in Breedon. "How the fuck are we going to defend our country if 
we start discarding the very science and its attendant technology that a 
fundamental discipline like evolution exemplifies. They have created a 
straw man. They are trying to make science stand for atheism so they can 
fight atheism while it's atheists that protect this country. When it 
comes to science, God is like having a monkey on your back," a clear 
reference to the scopes trial as well as an insight into why Newton, 
Leibniz, Descartes et al have ultimately fucked up everything. "If 
anything there's still too much god in science to make it anything more 
than a machine for its own endtime, witness global climate change," 
added Talbot.

*Scientists Have Begun Fleeing The U.S.*

The debate is the highest-profile confrontation over evolutionary theory 
in years, pitting the impassioned corps of anti-Darwinists against a 
scientific establishment that considers the evidence of the chemical and 
biological origins of life to be utterly necessary for national security.

The current threat to the security of the United States was made 
possible by Republican gains in November elections that gave the Kansas 
board a 6-4 conservative majority.

*Resentment Of Jewish Emigre Community That Saved America From Christian 
Nazis Drives Evangelical Creationism*

"'Course I'm disturbed them Jew boys come over from Europe and saved are 
fuckin' asses," commented Lester Simple. "But that's not why I'm a for 
Intelligent Design. This away I git associated with the word 
"intelligent" even though I got my degree in mathematics from a Bible 
college where we done our figurin' in cubits and such. Here boy. Have a 
snake."

Local and national science organizations are so disturbed by the 
proceedings that they are boycotting them and renewing their visas, that 
is apart from advising Pedro Irigonegaray, a civil rights and defense 
lawyer recruited to defend the existing Kansas science standards. On the 
eve of the hearings, he predicted a "whitewash" and that he would be 
tarred and feathered.

"I had a delicious fantasy," the Cuban-born Irigonegaray said with a 
smile, recalling the offer to defend evolutionary theory. "I saw myself 
back in Cuba, far away from these fuckin' fruitcakes, doing real science 
for an atheist regime that acted toward its citizens like true 
Christians whereas in this shithole America you get the whole thing 
turned on its head everyday and spend all day lying to yourself to stay 
attached to this delusion."

Take away the national security dimension, the television cameras and 
the PowerPoint presentations, and Thursday's scene bore a resemblance to 
the 1925 Scopes trial in Dayton, Tenn., where a high school science 
teacher was famously convicted of violating a state law forbidding the 
teaching of evolution. This time, said Bruce Chapman, a former Reagan 
administration Census Bureau director, "This is the Scopes trial turned 
on its head." "See?!" added Irigonegaray.

Chapman heads the Discovery Institute, whose Seattle offices overlooking 
Puget Sound have become the headquarters of the intelligent design 
industry, which posits that modern Darwinian theory is limited and that 
the Bible version is threatened by evolutionary theory and he's figured 
out a way to make some serious bucks capitalizing on those fears. "This 
has nothing to do with threatening national security," Chapman 
explained. "There were con men in the Bible too."

But an early witness was Jonathan Wells, a Discovery senior fellow who 
described himself as "an old Berkeley antiwar radical who would like 
nothing more than to smash the machine. What better way than to throw a 
'monkey' wrench into the whole military industrial complex by attacking 
one of sciences most fundamental sets of tenets and make a few bucks too."

*Bring Back the ICBS---Intercontinental Ballistic Sling-Shot And The 
Stink Of Underdog Status*

Wells confirmed during cross-examination that he was a member of the 
Unification Church when he earned doctorates in theology from Yale and 
in biology from the University of California at Berkeley. "Sure I have 
issues," Wells said. In an Internet posting distributed outside the 
meeting by Kansas Citizens for Science, Wells refers to church leader 
Sun Myung Moon, saying, "Father Moonpie's words, my bible studies, my 
prayers for an endowment and the actual endowment convinced me that I 
should devote my life to destroying Darwinism or until I'm 63 when the 
money runs out."

Testifying to the three-member education committee, Wells described 
himself as an embryological theologian, and said evolutionary theory 
"has left the realm of science" and instead has become "a necessary cog 
in the war machine and a technological rallying point for stealing other 
countries' natural resources, leaving death and destruction in its wake. 
He described the common scientific conclusion that all living things 
come from a common ancestor as essentially an act of faith that allowed 
American scientists to create viruses that kill specific groups. "Under 
Intelligent Design, who would know such things," Wells exclaimed turning 
his palms up in a gesture of ignorance. "Intelligent Design is like Nazi 
Science. We would be like Hitler. Think of all the lovely delusions we 
could harbor then."

Harris, a specialist in omega-3 fatty acids, delivered the opening 
statement and outline of the testimony ahead. He said an essential goal 
of the hearings is to prove there is a scientific controversy about 
evolutionary theory and hence criticism that should be added to the 
school curriculum, but not the criticism usually posited by the 
scientific community itself. "They better update their visas too," he 
suggested. "We are not a discriminating lot here once the masks come off 
despite our penchant for detail." A 26-member science standards 
committee concluded in March that the curriculum should remain 
unchanged. Harris and seven other members disagreed.

Harris disputed the accepted wisdom that ancient simple life forms 
became ever more complex, evolving over billions of years into human 
beings, beavers, tarpon and a multitude of other life forms. He also 
said it would not be an "irresponsible deduction from the data" to say 
the genetic code contained in DNA was produced by an intelligent "mind" 
probably on a space ship about 40 years ago and left up Harris' ass.

"Who's the designer?" asked Harris, a co-founder of Intelligent Design 
Network Inc. "I'd like to tell you I am, but I know I can't pull that 
off. Not like Reverend Moon Pie. Right Wells?"

*Scientists Fleeing The U.S. And This Time Its Not Just The Jews*

Usually it is the evolution forces that accuse the intelligent design 
side of wanting to teach religion in science class. But Harris said 
educators who teach Darwinian evolution effectively introduce religion 
by rejecting the possibility that God created the universe and all 
living things because "God was so fuckin' rich he coulda bought any 
advanced degrees he wanted. He didn't have no rich alumnae daddy and he 
didn't need none."

Harris went on to say he gave God a D- for his intelligent design 
because it includes fags and communists.

Asked where he saw atheism in the Kansas science standards, Harris 
replied, "I see it between the lines. The firing lines."

Early in his remarks, Harris projected a strategy letter from a Kansas 
Citizens for Science member onto a large screen on stage. It said the 
way to defeat the anti-evolution forces was be to portray them as 
political opportunists, evangelical activists, unprincipled bullies and 
ignoramuses.

"First, that document was totally unnecessary. It just shows the 
evolutionists are not paying attention. Are we ignoramuses?" Harris 
asked the committee members. "Well, just have to let God decide."







From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun May  8 16:29:09 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 13:29:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Notice: Salt River Review submissions
Message-ID: <1196791.1115584149316.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

Due to various technical difficulties and an unannounced server change, the current issue of The Salt River Review has been unavailable since February 1, 2005 but we expect to be back online with the current issue by the end of May.  Sometime this summer we will publish a double spring/summer issue.

Also, many submissions sent between December 1, 2004 and January 29, 2005 were lost due to the same difficulties.  If you submitted work during that time and have not heard from us, you can asssume your submission was lost and you are invited to submit again.

Submissions sent since February 1, 2005 are under consideration or have received a response.

- James Cervantes, Editor
jvcervantes at earthlink.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun May  8 21:19:00 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:19:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] A poem for Mother's Day 
Message-ID: <bf.5723c119.2fb01484@aol.com>

Milk-Bubble Ruins

In the long, indolent mornings of fifth-grade
spring vacation, our son sits with the
tag-ends of his breakfast, and blows bubbles in his milk
with a blue straw, and I sit and watch him.
The foam rises furiously 
in a dome over the rim of his cup,
we gaze into the edifice of fluid,
its multiple chambers. He puffs and they pile up,
they burst, they subside, he breathes out slowly, and the
multicellular clouds rise,
he inserts the straw into a single globe
and blows a little, and it swells. Ten years ago
he lay along my arm, drinking.
Now, in late March, he shows me
the white light
pop and dissolve as he
conjures and breaks each small room of milk.



--Sharon Olds
THE WELLSPRING, Knopf, 1996
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun May  8 21:31:14 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:31:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] turning to literature of painting
Message-ID: <20e.936098.2fb01762@aol.com>

To a large extent, the problems of poets are the problems of painters and 
poets must often turn to the literature of painting for a discussion of their own 
problems.
Wallace Stevens, Adagia, OP, p187
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon May  9 00:17:06 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 22:17:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
Message-ID: <1115612226.1829.44.camel@malatesta>

I'm pleased to join your group.  I had a browse through the archives and
was very entertained.   I'm a computer engineer by profession, but
poetry and prosody are my true passions.  I consider myself (somewhat
paradoxically) a classicist/modern with strong ties to his African
heritage (I'm a Nigerian immigrant living in Colorado).

I like to write on poetry in my Weblog.

http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry

I look forward to future discussion.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon May  9 05:32:20 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 01:32:20 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
Message-ID: <200505090810.j498AEqi144900@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Uche

I checked out our blog; some very interesting writings on metrics and
traditional prosody. I especially enjoyed your appreciation of Saul
Williams.

Thanks,
Chris


----------
>From: Uche Ogbuji <uche at ogbuji.net>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
>Date: Sun, May 8, 2005, 8:17 PM
>

> I'm pleased to join your group.  I had a browse through the archives and
> was very entertained.   I'm a computer engineer by profession, but
> poetry and prosody are my true passions.  I consider myself (somewhat
> paradoxically) a classicist/modern with strong ties to his African
> heritage (I'm a Nigerian immigrant living in Colorado).
>
> I like to write on poetry in my Weblog.
>
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry
>
> I look forward to future discussion.
>
>
> --
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon May  9 05:33:42 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 01:33:42 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
Message-ID: <200505090811.j498AEqk144900@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

oops----that was YOUR blog I checked out.

(it's late---time to sleep....)
C

----------
>From: "Chris Stroffolino " <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Greetings
>Date: Mon, May 9, 2005, 1:32 AM
>

> Uche
>
> I checked out our blog; some very interesting writings on metrics and
> traditional prosody. I especially enjoyed your appreciation of Saul
> Williams.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
>
> ----------
>>From: Uche Ogbuji <uche at ogbuji.net>
>>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
>>Date: Sun, May 8, 2005, 8:17 PM
>>
>
>> I'm pleased to join your group.  I had a browse through the archives and
>> was very entertained.   I'm a computer engineer by profession, but
>> poetry and prosody are my true passions.  I consider myself (somewhat
>> paradoxically) a classicist/modern with strong ties to his African
>> heritage (I'm a Nigerian immigrant living in Colorado).
>>
>> I like to write on poetry in my Weblog.
>>
>> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry
>>
>> I look forward to future discussion.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Uche Ogbuji
>> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
>> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From tad at opus40.org  Mon May  9 07:51:53 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 07:51:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
References: <1115612226.1829.44.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <002301c5548d$81668a30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Enjoying your blog. Welcome to NewPo.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 12:17 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings


> I'm pleased to join your group.  I had a browse through the archives and
> was very entertained.   I'm a computer engineer by profession, but
> poetry and prosody are my true passions.  I consider myself (somewhat
> paradoxically) a classicist/modern with strong ties to his African
> heritage (I'm a Nigerian immigrant living in Colorado).
> 
> I like to write on poetry in my Weblog.
> 
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry
> 
> I look forward to future discussion.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon May  9 08:54:02 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:54:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'
Message-ID: <1e6.3b5cc12b.2fb0b76a@aol.com>

Rare Ginsberg 'Howl' recording donated
 
Associated Press, Mon, Apr. 25, 2005
 
BOULDER, Colo. - The first known recording of beat poet Allen Ginsberg 
reading his work "Howl" has been donated to Naropa University's audio archive.
 
The 1956 recording was donated by California-based Pacifica Radio. The 
donation also included recordings of writers Robert Frost, Dylan Thomas, James 
Baldwin, Aldous Huxley and Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
 
"The poem `Howl' is important in that it made a major impact on American 
poetics of its time," said Steven Taylor, director of Naropa's audio archive.
 
Ginsberg, who died in 1997, was a co-founder of the Jack Kerouac School of 
Disembodied Poetics at Naropa. He was known for meticulous documentation.
 
"He recorded everything," Naropa archivist Tim Hawkins said Sunday at the 
formal presentation of the recordings. "It's a fantastic addition to the 
collection we have here."
 
Brian DeShazor, Pacifica's archives director, said the recordings were made 
in a freeform radio format that is now rare.
 
"They weren't just filling a time slot," DeShazor said. "The conversation 
continues until it is done."
 
Naropa is a nonprofit school that is inspired by Buddhism.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon May  9 09:04:28 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 09:04:28 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry: Contemporary Art from Italy.
Message-ID: <102.60c0c18d.2fb0b9dc@aol.com>

http://www.marquette.edu/haggerty/

 
Visual Poetry: Contemporary Art from Italy.
 
(Milwaukee) The Haggerty Museum of Art, Marquette University, will present La 
Poesia Visiva, Visual Poetry, April 7th through July 24th. This is the first 
US exhibition for the Italian artists Giuseppe Chiari, Claudio Francia, 
Eugenio Miccini, and Lamberto Pignotti. The exhibit includes 40 works, ten from each 
of the artists. 
 
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From tad at opus40.org  Mon May  9 10:24:00 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 10:24:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'
References: <1e6.3b5cc12b.2fb0b76a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005601c554a2$c1397310$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Anyone ever see the episode of "LA Law" that featured Mamie Van Doren reading "Howl"? It was one of the great moments in the history of TV.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:54 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'


  Rare Ginsberg 'Howl' recording donated

   

  Associated Press, Mon, Apr. 25, 2005

   

  BOULDER, Colo. - The first known recording of beat poet Allen Ginsberg reading his work "Howl" has been donated to Naropa University's audio archive.

   

  The 1956 recording was donated by California-based Pacifica Radio. The donation also included recordings of writers Robert Frost, Dylan Thomas, James Baldwin, Aldous Huxley and Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

   

  "The poem `Howl' is important in that it made a major impact on American poetics of its time," said Steven Taylor, director of Naropa's audio archive.

   

  Ginsberg, who died in 1997, was a co-founder of the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa. He was known for meticulous documentation.

   

  "He recorded everything," Naropa archivist Tim Hawkins said Sunday at the formal presentation of the recordings. "It's a fantastic addition to the collection we have here."

   

  Brian DeShazor, Pacifica's archives director, said the recordings were made in a freeform radio format that is now rare.

   

  "They weren't just filling a time slot," DeShazor said. "The conversation continues until it is done."

   

  Naropa is a nonprofit school that is inspired by Buddhism. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon May  9 10:32:17 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 16:32:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry: Contemporary Art from Italy.
References: <102.60c0c18d.2fb0b9dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005901c554a3$e6e11400$deaa3452@ANNY>

Hi James, thanks for this.

I have a big book here by Eugenio Miccini. 

Maybe the best one of the group was Ugo Carrega, whom I feature on the Poets' Corner. He sent me the typical big cardboard boxes tied together with string some years ago, full with his books. And last year 3 CD's with his work for the Corner. I finally found a good soul who promised would convert the images of his Mac into the format required by the pc so I can pull them online. Here is what I found in the format I needed:
 http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=56

I met the entire lot several years ago when Sarenco had a house close to Verona. The occasion was an exhibit and a big lunch with pasta and what-have-you. 

I should meet some of them maybe at the Bosco dei Poeti one of these Sundays, I have to check the date. I previously talked of this _Bosco - The Poets Woods_ in a mail to the list addressed to Tad.

I should also soon feature Berty Skuber, partner of Henry Martin. These are all names that come up together and included of what is or better was the visual poetry group in Italy. Berty sent me her catalogues and a couple of works, the latter went lost with my pc crash and for the catalogues for me to choose - I have to scan the pics, and I tried yesterday to start the scanner but I have no idea why it does not work. I will need another good soul around.

Besides this, our Museion - Museum of contemporary Art in Bolzano, is specialized in visual poetry. Once in a while they do some specific exhibits to give some air to what they have stored in the cellar. They have some precious artworks and I always admired them with affection.

As you can see James Cervantes, we had the same probl. at the same time, and now we have to overwork...

Care, Anny
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 3:04 PM


  http://www.marquette.edu/haggerty/



   

  Visual Poetry: Contemporary Art from Italy.

   

  (Milwaukee) The Haggerty Museum of Art, Marquette University, will present La Poesia Visiva, Visual Poetry, April 7th through July 24th. This is the first US exhibition for the Italian artists Giuseppe Chiari, Claudio Francia, Eugenio Miccini, and Lamberto Pignotti. The exhibit includes 40 works, ten from each of the artists. 

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon May  9 10:54:09 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 09:54:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Simic
Message-ID: <BEA4E3C1.11D03%grahamd@ripon.edu>

It's the birthday of Charles Simic, 67 years old today.

Baby Pictures of Famous Dictators

The epoch of a streetcar drawn by horses;
The organ-grinder and his monkey.
Women with parasols. Little kids in rowboats
Photographed against a cardboard backdrop depicting an idyllic sunset.
At the fairgrounds where they all went to see
The two-headed calf, the bearded
Fat lady who dances the dance of seven veils.

And the great famine raging through India . . .
Fortune-telling white rats pulling a card out of a shoebox
While Edison worries over the lightbulb,
And the first model of the sewing machine
Is delivered in a pushcart
To a modest white-fenced home in the suburbs,

Where there are always a couple of infants
Posing for the camera in their sailors' suits,
Out there in the garden overgrown with shrubs.
Lovable little mugs smiling faintly toward
The new century. Innocent. Why not!
All of them like ragdolls of the period
With those chubby porcelain heads
That shut their long eyelashes as you lay them down.

In a kind of perpetual summer twilight . . .
One can even make out the shadow of the tripod and the black hood
That must have been quivering in the breeze.
One assumes that they all stayed up late squinting at the stars,
And were carried off to bed by their mothers and big sisters,
While the dogs remained behind:
Pedigreed bitches pregnant with bloodhounds.

--Charles Simic.  *Classic Ballroom Dances*.  1980.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Mon May  9 10:56:52 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 10:56:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'
In-Reply-To: <005601c554a2$c1397310$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <1e6.3b5cc12b.2fb0b76a@aol.com>
	<005601c554a2$c1397310$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505091055090.29688@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

I really MISS LA Law.  It is where my shadow yuppie side could
get out and wander...

I particularly loved it when the dark haired good looking one
would show up in his Yale t-shirt...


On Mon, 9 May 2005, The Old Mole wrote:

> Anyone ever see the episode of "LA Law" that featured Mamie Van Doren reading "Howl"? It was one of the great moments in the history of TV.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: JforJames at aol.com
>   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:54 AM
>   Subject: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'
>
>
>   Rare Ginsberg 'Howl' recording donated
>
>
>
>   Associated Press, Mon, Apr. 25, 2005
>
>
>
>   BOULDER, Colo. - The first known recording of beat poet Allen Ginsberg reading his work "Howl" has been donated to Naropa University's audio archive.
>
>
>
>   The 1956 recording was donated by California-based Pacifica Radio. The donation also included recordings of writers Robert Frost, Dylan Thomas, James Baldwin, Aldous Huxley and Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
>
>
>
>   "The poem `Howl' is important in that it made a major impact on American poetics of its time," said Steven Taylor, director of Naropa's audio archive.
>
>
>
>   Ginsberg, who died in 1997, was a co-founder of the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa. He was known for meticulous documentation.
>
>
>
>   "He recorded everything," Naropa archivist Tim Hawkins said Sunday at the formal presentation of the recordings. "It's a fantastic addition to the collection we have here."
>
>
>
>   Brian DeShazor, Pacifica's archives director, said the recordings were made in a freeform radio format that is now rare.
>
>
>
>   "They weren't just filling a time slot," DeShazor said. "The conversation continues until it is done."
>
>
>
>   Naropa is a nonprofit school that is inspired by Buddhism.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From tad at opus40.org  Mon May  9 12:12:34 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:12:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'
References: <1e6.3b5cc12b.2fb0b76a@aol.com><005601c554a2$c1397310$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505091055090.29688@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <00a501c554b1$ebeab7e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

The "Poetry Expo" episode was particularly good. It had clearly been written 
by someone who understood Po-Biz.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'


>I really MISS LA Law.  It is where my shadow yuppie side could
> get out and wander...
>
> I particularly loved it when the dark haired good looking one
> would show up in his Yale t-shirt...
>
>
> On Mon, 9 May 2005, The Old Mole wrote:
>
>> Anyone ever see the episode of "LA Law" that featured Mamie Van Doren 
>> reading "Howl"? It was one of the great moments in the history of TV.
>>
>>
>> Tad Richards
>> www.opus40.org
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: JforJames at aol.com
>>   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>   Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:54 AM
>>   Subject: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'
>>
>>
>>   Rare Ginsberg 'Howl' recording donated
>>
>>
>>
>>   Associated Press, Mon, Apr. 25, 2005
>>
>>
>>
>>   BOULDER, Colo. - The first known recording of beat poet Allen Ginsberg 
>> reading his work "Howl" has been donated to Naropa University's audio 
>> archive.
>>
>>
>>
>>   The 1956 recording was donated by California-based Pacifica Radio. The 
>> donation also included recordings of writers Robert Frost, Dylan Thomas, 
>> James Baldwin, Aldous Huxley and Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
>>
>>
>>
>>   "The poem `Howl' is important in that it made a major impact on 
>> American poetics of its time," said Steven Taylor, director of Naropa's 
>> audio archive.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Ginsberg, who died in 1997, was a co-founder of the Jack Kerouac School 
>> of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa. He was known for meticulous 
>> documentation.
>>
>>
>>
>>   "He recorded everything," Naropa archivist Tim Hawkins said Sunday at 
>> the formal presentation of the recordings. "It's a fantastic addition to 
>> the collection we have here."
>>
>>
>>
>>   Brian DeShazor, Pacifica's archives director, said the recordings were 
>> made in a freeform radio format that is now rare.
>>
>>
>>
>>   "They weren't just filling a time slot," DeShazor said. "The 
>> conversation continues until it is done."
>>
>>
>>
>>   Naropa is a nonprofit school that is inspired by Buddhism.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   New-Poetry mailing list
>>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon May  9 05:12:15 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 04:12:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <200505090811.j498AEqk144900@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <BEA4939F.8EB2%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/9/05 4:33 AM, "Chris Stroffolino" <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:

>>> I'm pleased to join your group.  I had a browse through the archives and
>>> was very entertained.   I'm a computer engineer by profession, but
>>> poetry and prosody are my true passions.  I consider myself (somewhat
>>> paradoxically) a classicist/modern with strong ties to his African
>>> heritage (I'm a Nigerian immigrant living in Colorado).
>>> 
>>> I like to write on poetry in my Weblog.

Glad to have you aboard. I'll check out your Weblog.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon May  9 14:34:42 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 14:34:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'
References: <1e6.3b5cc12b.2fb0b76a@aol.com><005601c554a2$c1397310$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><Pine.GSO.4.55.0505091055090.29688@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<00a501c554b1$ebeab7e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <008501c554c5$c4b5b3a0$b60b9942@Helen>

Wow.  You wouldn't happen to have a copy of that - be worth zillions!
Like Marilyn singing happy birthday to JFK

h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'


> The "Poetry Expo" episode was particularly good. It had clearly been 
> written by someone who understood Po-Biz.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 10:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'
>
>
>>I really MISS LA Law.  It is where my shadow yuppie side could
>> get out and wander...
>>
>> I particularly loved it when the dark haired good looking one
>> would show up in his Yale t-shirt...
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 9 May 2005, The Old Mole wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone ever see the episode of "LA Law" that featured Mamie Van Doren 
>>> reading "Howl"? It was one of the great moments in the history of TV.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tad Richards
>>> www.opus40.org
>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>   From: JforJames at aol.com
>>>   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>   Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:54 AM
>>>   Subject: [New-Poetry] primal 'Howl'
>>>
>>>
>>>   Rare Ginsberg 'Howl' recording donated
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Associated Press, Mon, Apr. 25, 2005
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   BOULDER, Colo. - The first known recording of beat poet Allen Ginsberg 
>>> reading his work "Howl" has been donated to Naropa University's audio 
>>> archive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   The 1956 recording was donated by California-based Pacifica Radio. The 
>>> donation also included recordings of writers Robert Frost, Dylan Thomas, 
>>> James Baldwin, Aldous Huxley and Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   "The poem `Howl' is important in that it made a major impact on 
>>> American poetics of its time," said Steven Taylor, director of Naropa's 
>>> audio archive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Ginsberg, who died in 1997, was a co-founder of the Jack Kerouac 
>>> School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa. He was known for meticulous 
>>> documentation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   "He recorded everything," Naropa archivist Tim Hawkins said Sunday at 
>>> the formal presentation of the recordings. "It's a fantastic addition to 
>>> the collection we have here."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Brian DeShazor, Pacifica's archives director, said the recordings were 
>>> made in a freeform radio format that is now rare.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   "They weren't just filling a time slot," DeShazor said. "The 
>>> conversation continues until it is done."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Naropa is a nonprofit school that is inspired by Buddhism.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   New-Poetry mailing list
>>>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


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From millb at aol.com  Mon May  9 15:24:38 2005
From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 15:24:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Events
In-Reply-To: <BEA4939F.8EB2%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <8C722E3E05290E2-1B4-E9CC@mblk-r30.sysops.aol.com>

 Greetings,
 
I'll be in NYC from July 1-5th  Can anyone recommend readings or literary events during this time?
 
Thanks,
 
Mill
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Tue May 10 07:51:28 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 05:51:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <200505090810.j498AEqi144900@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200505090810.j498AEqi144900@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <1115725888.1829.64.camel@malatesta>

On Mon, 2005-05-09 at 01:32 -0800, Chris Stroffolino wrote:
> Uche
> 
> I checked out our blog; some very interesting writings on metrics and
> traditional prosody. I especially enjoyed your appreciation of Saul
> Williams.

Thanks.  I'm glad you like it.  It's my pleasure to discuss the Western
European poetic tradition in juxtaposition with the African.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 10 09:03:22 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:03:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tagore galore
Message-ID: <1f9.979f390.2fb20b1a@aol.com>

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1354255,00110004.htm
 
Bengal resounds with songs, poetry on Tagore's birthday
 
Indo-Asian News Service
Kolkata, May 9, 2005
 
 
The 144th birthday of Nobel Prize winning poet Rabindranath Tagore was 
celebrated across West Bengal on Monday, with a university set up by him breaking 
tradition to mark it with songs, dances and poetry.
 
With replicas of Tagore's stolen Nobel Prize medallion somewhat assuaging the 
deep sense of loss, the state seemed to be in a mood to rejoice over its 
everlasting bond with the bard.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 10 09:14:51 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:14:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
Message-ID: <ac.72f41e64.2fb20dcb@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/10/2005 7:52:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
uche at ogbuji.net writes:

Thanks.  I'm glad you like it.  It's my pleasure to discuss the Western
European poetic tradition in juxtaposition with the African.
Uche,
Is there a particular anthology you might recommend that
is current with trends in contemporary African poetry?

Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 10 09:32:31 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:32:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
Message-ID: <83.2743c486.2fb211ef@aol.com>

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Whitman-Interview.html?
N.J. Student Finds 1888 Whitman Interview
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: May 6, 2005
''First, don't write poetry; second ditto; third ditto,'' Whitman says. ''You 
may be surprised to hear me say so, but there is no particular need of poetic 
expression. We are utilitarian, and the current cannot be stopped.''
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 10 10:27:01 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:27:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
Message-ID: <6d.450702b4.2fb21eb5@cs.com>

". . . whatever you do learn condensation,'' Whitman said.

Like, write haiku?
 
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue May 10 10:33:25 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:33:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
In-Reply-To: <6d.450702b4.2fb21eb5@cs.com>
Message-ID: <42808DF5.31253.15E5F19A@localhost>

> ". . . whatever you do learn condensation,'' Whitman said.

On 10 May 2005 at 10:27, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> Like, write haiku?

No! Like Whitman!

M

 




From clitophon at yahoo.com  Tue May 10 11:09:42 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:09:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] www.theengine.net
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050510150942.93538.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi, can anyone put me in touch with writer's groups
internationally interested in interactions etc?  I'd
appreciate anyone's contribution.
best wishes,
Paul Murphy
www.theengine.net


		
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue May 10 11:32:04 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:32:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
In-Reply-To: <6d.450702b4.2fb21eb5@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BEA63E24.11D87%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/10/05 9:27 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

". . . whatever you do learn condensation,'' Whitman said.

Like, write haiku?


_______________________________________________



A FARM PICTURE
 
Through the ample open door of the peaceful country barn,
A sunlit pasture field with cattle and horses feeding,
And haze and vista, and the far horizon fading away.

--Whitman


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue May 10 05:47:08 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 04:47:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
In-Reply-To: <83.2743c486.2fb211ef@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BEA5ED4C.8ECE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/10/05 8:32 AM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:

> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: May 6, 2005
> 
> ''First, don't write poetry; second ditto; third ditto,'' Whitman says. ''You
> may be surprised to hear me say so, but there is no particular need of poetic
> expression. We are utilitarian, and the current cannot be stopped.''

Was ditto a word in Whitman?s time? Anybody know?

Paul Lake
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue May 10 05:48:03 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 04:48:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
In-Reply-To: <6d.450702b4.2fb21eb5@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BEA5ED83.8ECF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/10/05 9:27 AM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> ". . . whatever you do learn condensation,'' Whitman said.
> 
> Like, write haiku?

Yes, condensation is always the first word that comes to mind when reading
Whitman.


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From dwaber at logolalia.com  Tue May 10 11:49:44 2005
From: dwaber at logolalia.com (Dan Waber)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:49:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
In-Reply-To: <BEA5ED4C.8ECE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu> (Paul Lake's message of
	"Tue, 10 May 2005 04:47:08 -0500")
References: <BEA5ED4C.8ECE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <86hdhbozc7.fsf@argos.fun-fun.prv>

Looks like it:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ditto

ditto
    1625, Tuscan dial. ditto "(in) the said (month or year)," from It. detto, pp. of dire "to say," from L. dicere (see diction). Originally used in It. to avoid repetition of month names in a series of dates; generalized meaning of "same as above" first recorded in Eng. 1678.

Dan

Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
> On 5/10/05 8:32 AM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: May 6, 2005
>> 
>> ''First, don't write poetry; second ditto; third ditto,'' Whitman says. ''You
>> may be surprised to hear me say so, but there is no particular need of poetic
>> expression. We are utilitarian, and the current cannot be stopped.''
>
> Was ditto a word in Whitman?s time? Anybody know?
>
> Paul Lake
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 10 12:59:42 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:59:42 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
Message-ID: <1e9.3bc130e0.2fb2427e@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/10/2005 12:54:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dwaber at logolalia.com writes:
http://www.etymonline.com
That's a nice resource to know about.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 10 13:04:57 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:04:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Events
Message-ID: <20.449ffe6f.2fb243b9@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/9/2005 3:25:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, millb at aol.com 
writes:
I'll be in NYC from July 1-5th  Can anyone recommend readings or literary 
events during this time?
http://www.poetz.com/cgi-poetz/Calcium37.pl?CalendarName=nyc&Op=ShowIt


Mill, this calendar is available online. 
Jim F
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From dwaber at logolalia.com  Tue May 10 12:11:51 2005
From: dwaber at logolalia.com (Dan Waber)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:11:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
In-Reply-To: <1e9.3bc130e0.2fb2427e@aol.com> (JforJames@aol.com's message of
	"Tue, 10 May 2005 12:59:42 EDT")
References: <1e9.3bc130e0.2fb2427e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <868y2noybc.fsf@argos.fun-fun.prv>

> http://www.etymonline.com
> That's a nice resource to know about.

If you like that, the *really* nice resource is:

http://www.onelook.com/ 

doesn't look like much, but search on something and look at the
results.

Dan


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 10 13:36:20 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:36:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
References: <200505090810.j498AEqi144900@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
	<1115725888.1829.64.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <088d01c55586$c718ff50$cb309b51@Robin>

> Thanks.  I'm glad you like it.  It's my pleasure to discuss the Western
> European poetic tradition in juxtaposition with the African.

I'm mildly bothered here by Uche's use of the blanket term "African".  Might
be my take on it but I worry even about the difference between Rastafarian
and Jamaican (and the minute that I say that, I'm aware that "Rastafarian"
runs differently in the US and the UK, and even to cut to the bone, to
generalise about Rastafarians in even Leeds makes nonsense) but how do you
put Lynton Kwasi Johnston, James Braithwaite and Dereck Wolcott in the same
bucket?

The three are each poets of genius, in their different ways all in a loose
or in an extended sense Jamaican, so exactly what the hell does the blanket
term "African" *mean*?

(Sorry, folks, I'm in state of mild euphoria having *finally* got shot of
the Cowboy Builders From Hell, though it took a combination of my two kids,
my ex-wife, the builder from across the road and a teenage policeman from
the local cop shop to get my house deloused.)

Added to which, there was a comment in the latest entry in Uche's blog on
the use of italics in John Donne's use of italics in the +Songs and Sonets+
...

What has life more to hold?

Deacon Brodie.




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue May 10 13:45:05 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 19:45:05 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] x
Message-ID: <006201c55588$0075cac0$93ae3452@ANNY>

The Page
http://thepage.name/


_____________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue May 10 14:48:49 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:48:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Africa, etc.
In-Reply-To: <088d01c55586$c718ff50$cb309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <BEA66C41.11DA5%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/10/05 12:36 PM, Robin Hamilton at robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com wrote:

> how do you
> put Lynton Kwasi Johnston, James Braithwaite and Dereck Wolcott in the same
> bucket?


Buckets aside, would that possibly be Linton Kwesi Johnson, Edward Kamau
Brathwaite, and Derek Walcott?

I imagine Uche's use of the term "African" was shorthand for "deriving from
African sources," not a claim that all such poetry is the same, any more
than the European tradition is monolithic.

As for Saul Williams, I'd love to see some discussion of his work here.  I
find his performances mesmerizing, but have had trouble getting a handle on
his work on the page.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 10 14:56:56 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:56:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Chicago Review's website is uptodate
Message-ID: <142.44ffc80b.2fb25df8@aol.com>

Chicago Review's website is uptodate!  It now has full online
ordering capabilities as well as the usual outline of, and excerpts
from, our current issue.  Please take a look:


http://humanities.uchicago.edu/review


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


And:


A review of our last issue, Edward Dorn, American Heretic, may be
found here:
http://versemag.blogspot.com/2005/04/new-review-of-chicago-review.html


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


And:


A preview of our next issue, due in June, may be found below:


The third is a series of three big special issues, CR's forthcoming
features a festschrift for the poet, translator, story writer, and
critic Christopher Middleton, with contributions from Yvonne
Jacquette, August Kleinzahler, Zulfikar Ghose, Keith Waldrop,
Rosmarie Waldrop, and others.  The issue will also feature fiction
from Lisa Jarnot and poems from, among others, Alice Notley,
Christopher Dewdney, Keston Sutherland, and Elizabeth Willis.


Subsequent (regular-size) issues will include a long poem by CD
Wright, fiction by Diana George and Piotr Ficowski, and poems by,
among others, Merrill Gilfillan, Devin Johnston, and Medbh McGuckian.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Thank you,


CHICAGO REVIEW
5801 South Kenwood Avenue
Chicago IL 60637


http://humanities.uchicago.edu/review
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 10 15:32:33 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:32:33 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Africa, etc.
References: <BEA66C41.11DA5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <093e01c55597$03a0a710$cb309b51@Robin>

> Buckets aside, would that possibly be Linton Kwesi Johnson, Edward Kamau
> Brathwaite, and Derek Walcott?

Yes (spelling isn't exactly my best side).

> I imagine Uche's use of the term "African" was shorthand for "deriving
from
> African sources," not a claim that all such poetry is the same, any more
> than the European tradition is monolithic.

K.

Robin



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue May 10 16:13:20 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:13:20 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Fw=3A_mutterland_-_ROSE_AUSL=C4NDER?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?=2C_eine_erinnerung?=
Message-ID: <01e901c5559c$b5fa0e10$93ae3452@ANNY>



Subject: mutterland - ROSE AUSL?NDER, eine erinnerung


Rose Ausl?nder - 104. geburtstag am morgigen 11. Mai 2005
tomorrow: her 104th birthday

Mutterland

Mein Vaterland ist tot
sie haben es begraben
im Feuer

Ich lebe
in meinem Mutterland
Wort
(Rose Ausl?nder)

 

 Motherland



My fatherland is dead

they buried it

in fire



I live

in my motherland

word



transl. Anny Ballardini

on this site http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A7811-2004Oct28?language=printer my transl is just the same as Eavan Boland's, I am also copying the following poem by Rose Auslaender:



My Nightingale 

My mother was a doe in another time. 

Her honey-brown eyes 

and her loveliness 

survive from that moment. 

Here she was -- 

half an angel and half humankind -- 

the center was mother. 

When I asked her once what she would have wanted to be 

she made this answer to me: a nightingale. 

Now she is a nightingale. 

Every night, night after night, I hear her 

in the garden of my sleepless dream. 

She is singing the Zion of her ancestors. 

She is singing the long-ago Austria. 

She is singing the hills and beech-woods 

of Bukowina. 

My nightingale 

sings lullabies to me 

night after night 

in the garden of my sleepless dream. 




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From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 10 17:27:45 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:27:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
References: <BEA5ED83.8ECF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <008001c555a7$1ebf2570$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:48 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po


  On 5/10/05 9:27 AM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:


    ". . . whatever you do learn condensation,'' Whitman said.

    Like, write haiku?


  Yes, condensation is always the first word that comes to mind when 
  reading Whitman.


But there's always that drip, drip.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 10 17:29:08 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:29:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
References: <200505090810.j498AEqi144900@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net><1115725888.1829.64.camel@malatesta>
	<088d01c55586$c718ff50$cb309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <009101c555a7$50d3bbc0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I'm broadly interested in American culture. Doesn't mean I don't also make 
distinctions within it.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Greetings


>> Thanks.  I'm glad you like it.  It's my pleasure to discuss the Western
>> European poetic tradition in juxtaposition with the African.
>
> I'm mildly bothered here by Uche's use of the blanket term "African". 
> Might
> be my take on it but I worry even about the difference between Rastafarian
> and Jamaican (and the minute that I say that, I'm aware that "Rastafarian"
> runs differently in the US and the UK, and even to cut to the bone, to
> generalise about Rastafarians in even Leeds makes nonsense) but how do you
> put Lynton Kwasi Johnston, James Braithwaite and Dereck Wolcott in the 
> same
> bucket?
>
> The three are each poets of genius, in their different ways all in a loose
> or in an extended sense Jamaican, so exactly what the hell does the 
> blanket
> term "African" *mean*?
>
> (Sorry, folks, I'm in state of mild euphoria having *finally* got shot of
> the Cowboy Builders From Hell, though it took a combination of my two 
> kids,
> my ex-wife, the builder from across the road and a teenage policeman from
> the local cop shop to get my house deloused.)
>
> Added to which, there was a comment in the latest entry in Uche's blog on
> the use of italics in John Donne's use of italics in the +Songs and 
> Sonets+
> ...
>
> What has life more to hold?
>
> Deacon Brodie.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 10 18:25:44 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:25:44 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
References: <200505090810.j498AEqi144900@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net><1115725888.1829.64.camel@malatesta><088d01c55586$c718ff50$cb309b51@Robin>
	<009101c555a7$50d3bbc0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <09e901c555af$351e67b0$cb309b51@Robin>

> I'm broadly interested in American culture. Doesn't mean I don't also make
> distinctions within it.
>
> Tad Richards

Benito Cereno?

R.



From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 10 18:44:48 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:44:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories
In-Reply-To: <006201c55588$0075cac0$93ae3452@ANNY>
References: <006201c55588$0075cac0$93ae3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <42813960.9070002@ix.netcom.com>

On Mairead Byrne's site, she has a poem from Alan Dugan that begins:

"*POEM*

After your first poetry reading
I shook hands with you
and got a hard-on. Thank you."

Actually, that's precisely what Aldon Nielson said to me. CP




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 10 18:47:06 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:47:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: bringing back fond memories
In-Reply-To: <006201c55588$0075cac0$93ae3452@ANNY>
References: <006201c55588$0075cac0$93ae3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <428139EA.90409@ix.netcom.com>

On Mairead Byrne's site, she has a poem from Alan Dugan that begins:

"*POEM*

After your first poetry reading
I shook hands with you
and got a hard-on. Thank you."

Actually, that's precisely what Aldon Nielson said to me. CP




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 10 19:24:32 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 19:24:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Africa, etc.
Message-ID: <194.3e9d2f9b.2fb29cb0@aol.com>

I have an older anthology called POEMS FROM BLACK
AFRICA, c. 1963, IUP, edited by Langston Hughes. I'm wondering
what anthology/anthologies would bring me more up-to-date?
My library has got to be at least two generations behind 
what's going on these days in the poetries (I'm sure it's 
as culturally and aesthetically diverse as US scene)  from Africa.  

Finnegan
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 10 19:27:56 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 19:27:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories
Message-ID: <208.bd6f4b.2fb29d7c@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:47:41 PM Central Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
> On Mairead Byrne's site, she has a poem from Alan Dugan that begins:
> 
> "*POEM*
> 
> After your first poetry reading
> I shook hands with you
> and got a hard-on. Thank you."

A class act all the way.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 10 19:28:45 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 19:28:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: bringing back fond memories
Message-ID: <13d.12ff00c1.2fb29dad@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:48:57 PM Central Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
> 
> "*POEM*
> 
> After your first poetry reading
> I shook hands with you
> and got a hard-on. Thank you."
> 
> Actually, that's precisely what Aldon Nielson said to me. CP

Well, maybe it's what I always hoped Wystan would say to me!
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 10 19:34:36 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 19:34:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] fiction writer as Menonite
Message-ID: <15d.50937986.2fb29f0c@aol.com>

I just overheard a fiction writer (Meg Wolitzer,
who has justpublished a well-reviewed novel, 
THE POSITION, and is being interviewed by Terry 
Gross) say she thought fiction writers were almost 
like Mennonites, some kind of obscure group living 
amidst us. That everyone was expecting truth (meaning,
I think memoir) from them. (Rough paraphrase.)

If fiction writers think they're like Mennonites, what
does it make of us poets? We must be a cargo cult.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 10 19:43:20 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 19:43:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: bringing back fond memories
Message-ID: <1ed.3baa61af.2fb2a118@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/10/2005 6:47:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
"*POEM*

After your first poetry reading
I shook hands with you
and got a hard-on. Thank you."
You gotta admire Dugan...he
could experience verse as Viagra.
Finnegan
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From bardo at optonline.net  Tue May 10 20:02:37 2005
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:02:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
References: <BEA5ED4C.8ECE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <009201c555bc$bdefd030$3a95c044@MULDER>

Re: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po dit?to  Listen: [ dt ]
n. pl. dit?tos 


  1.. The same as stated above or before.


  2.. A duplicate; a copy.


  3.. A pair of small marks (  ) used to indicated that the word, phrase, or figure given above is to be repeated.
adv. 

  As before.
tr.v. dit?toed, dit?to?ing, dit?tos 

  To duplicate (a document, for example).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Italian dialectal, past participle of Italian dire, to say, from Latin dcere; see deik- in Indo-European roots.]
  Word History: Ditto, which at first glance seems a handy and insignificant sort of word, actually has a Roman past, for it comes from dictus, "having been said," the past participle of the verb dcere, "to say." In Italian dcere became dire and dictus became detto, or in the Tuscan dialect ditto. Italian detto or ditto meant what said does in English, as in the locution "the said story." Thus the word could be used in certain constructions to mean "the same as what has been said"; for example, having given the date December 22, one could use 26 detto or ditto for 26 December. The first recorded use of ditto in English occurs in such a construction in 1625. The sense "copy" is an English development, first recorded in 1818. Ditto has even become a trademark for a duplicating machine.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po


  On 5/10/05 8:32 AM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:


    By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: May 6, 2005

    ''First, don't write poetry; second ditto; third ditto,'' Whitman says. ''You may be surprised to hear me say so, but there is no particular need of poetic expression. We are utilitarian, and the current cannot be stopped.''


  Was ditto a word in Whitman's time? Anybody know?

  Paul Lake 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 10 20:16:17 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:16:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <143.44b9981a.2fb2a8d1@aol.com>

http://www.poems.com/essabrom.htm

But where does that leave the sonnet? If Emerson were altogether right, there 
could not be enough American sonnets to make a topic for an essay. He was, I 
think, half right. American poets have prized invention above all other 
qualities; but to the poet of original genius, form is an irrepressible motive to 
invention.
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From bardo at optonline.net  Tue May 10 20:32:20 2005
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:32:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po
References: <BEA5ED4C.8ECE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
	<009201c555bc$bdefd030$3a95c044@MULDER>
Message-ID: <01ae01c555c0$e4dae640$3a95c044@MULDER>

Re: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to poSorry: I forgot to indicate the souce:
Http://yourdictionary.com

~ Dan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Daniel Zimmerman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Cc: Daniel Zimmerman 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po


   dit?to  Listen: [ dt ]
  n. pl. dit?tos 


    1.. The same as stated above or before.

    2.. A duplicate; a copy.

    3.. A pair of small marks (  ) used to indicated that the word, phrase, or figure given above is to be repeated.
  adv. 

    As before.
  tr.v. dit?toed, dit?to?ing, dit?tos 

    To duplicate (a document, for example).


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  [Italian dialectal, past participle of Italian dire, to say, from Latin dcere; see deik- in Indo-European roots.] 
    Word History: Ditto, which at first glance seems a handy and insignificant sort of word, actually has a Roman past, for it comes from dictus, "having been said," the past participle of the verb dcere, "to say." In Italian dcere became dire and dictus became detto, or in the Tuscan dialect ditto. Italian detto or ditto meant what said does in English, as in the locution "the said story." Thus the word could be used in certain constructions to mean "the same as what has been said"; for example, having given the date December 22, one could use 26 detto or ditto for 26 December. The first recorded use of ditto in English occurs in such a construction in 1625. The sense "copy" is an English development, first recorded in 1818. Ditto has even become a trademark for a duplicating machine.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Paul Lake 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
    Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:47 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Whitman: no go to po


    On 5/10/05 8:32 AM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:


      By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: May 6, 2005

      ''First, don't write poetry; second ditto; third ditto,'' Whitman says. ''You may be surprised to hear me say so, but there is no particular need of poetic expression. We are utilitarian, and the current cannot be stopped.''


    Was ditto a word in Whitman's time? Anybody know?

    Paul Lake 


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue May 10 20:52:24 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:52:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] fiction writer as Menonite
References: <15d.50937986.2fb29f0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d101c555c3$b2ae53c0$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I just overheard a fiction writer (Meg Wolitzer, who has justpublished a well-reviewed novel, THE POSITION, and is being interviewed by Terry Gross) say she thought fiction writers were almost like Mennonites, some kind of obscure group living amidst us. That everyone was expecting truth (meaning, I think memoir) from them. (Rough paraphrase.)

If fiction writers think they're like Mennonites, what does it make of us poets? We must be a cargo cult.  

Finnegan

I wonder if she meant "serious" fiction writers.  I've always thought of my crowd of burstnorm poets akin to medieval monks--cut off from one another, but communicating via letters the vast majority of other folk wouldn't be able to understand and consider of no value whatever.  (And we do it internationally, visual poetry, our main poetry, being a kind of Latin.)

But I see that poets in general are similarly Erasmuses.  It would seem that most poets are proper Christians, burstnorm poets heretics.  Serious fiction writers believers in Islam?  Serious playwrights Jews?

--Bob G. 
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From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 10 21:14:27 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:14:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Africa, etc.
References: <BEA66C41.11DA5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00ce01c555c6$c9cbf640$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Saul Williams is new to me. I'll have to check him out.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 2:48 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Africa, etc.


> on 5/10/05 12:36 PM, Robin Hamilton at robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com 
> wrote:
>
>> how do you
>> put Lynton Kwasi Johnston, James Braithwaite and Dereck Wolcott in the 
>> same
>> bucket?
>
>
> Buckets aside, would that possibly be Linton Kwesi Johnson, Edward Kamau
> Brathwaite, and Derek Walcott?
>
> I imagine Uche's use of the term "African" was shorthand for "deriving 
> from
> African sources," not a claim that all such poetry is the same, any more
> than the European tradition is monolithic.
>
> As for Saul Williams, I'd love to see some discussion of his work here.  I
> find his performances mesmerizing, but have had trouble getting a handle 
> on
> his work on the page.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 10 21:58:22 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:58:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] fiction writer as Menonite
Message-ID: <144.4508ba81.2fb2c0be@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/10/2005 6:35:08 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
>  
>  If fiction writers think they're like Mennonites, what
>  does it make of us poets? We must be a cargo cult.
>  Finnegan
> 
Poets are Pentecostals. Trust me.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 10 22:06:59 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:06:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <a3.73690dbf.2fb2c2c3@cs.com>

Any writer on the American sonnet who does not mention Wylie and Millay is, 
if not beneath, at least somewhat lower than . . .contempt.  No one . . . I 
repeat, no one (well, Shakespeare excepted), did better by the form than Millay.  
And Robinson (without slighting Frost) has at least a dozen that are among 
the stars.  
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 10 22:23:13 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 03:23:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
References: <a3.73690dbf.2fb2c2c3@cs.com>
Message-ID: <0acc01c555d0$620dd780$cb309b51@Robin>

  No one . . . I repeat, no one (well, Shakespeare excepted), did better by the form than Millay.  

Greville?

                    "Farewell, sweet boy, I gave thee all my youth ..."

R.

Talking of which, anyone have an opinion on the lunatic reverse-engineering of the protagonist of Berryman's +Sonnets+ back from Lise to Jane?

(Do I mean Jane?  Joan?  Whatever.)

R2.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue May 10 23:38:33 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:38:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <a3.73690dbf.2fb2c2c3@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BEA6E869.11DD7%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/10/05 9:06 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

Any writer on the American sonnet who does not mention Wylie and Millay is,
if not beneath, at least somewhat lower than . . .contempt.  No one . . . I
repeat, no one (well, Shakespeare excepted), did better by the form than
Millay.  And Robinson (without slighting Frost) has at least a dozen that
are among the stars.
_______________________________________________


Sam, how about mentioning some of Millay's best sonnets?  It's been a good
while since I looked seriously at her.

As for Frost & Robinson as sonneteers, I'd hate to have to choose between
the two--but I can think of  few *poems* better than "The Oven Bird," "The
Silken Tent" or "Never Again Would Birds' Song", much less sonnets.

In any case, one of the most cherished books on my shelf is Robinson's
*Sonnets* from 1928--it's nice to have his sonnets culled from the
Hardy-like voluminousness of his collected poems.

I had thought that this book was long out of print, but I note that Amazon
has a reprint for sale.

George Crabbe

Give him the darkest inch your shelf allows,
Hide him in lonely garrets, if you will, ?
But his hard, human pulse is throbbing still
With the sure strength that fearless truth endows.
In spite of all fine science disavows,
Of his plain excellence and stubborn skill
There yet remains what fashion cannot kill,
Though years have thinned the laurel from his brows.

Whether or not we read him, we can feel
>From time to time the vigor of his name
Against us like a finger for the shame
And emptiness of what our souls reveal
In books that are as altars where we kneel
To consecrate the flicker, not the flame.

E. A. Robinson

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed May 11 00:19:49 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:19:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <208.bd6f4b.2fb29d7c@cs.com>
References: <208.bd6f4b.2fb29d7c@cs.com>
Message-ID: <428187E5.5050602@ix.netcom.com>

<A class act all the way.>

I' m assuming that your reference is to Dugan and not Ms. Byrne for 
inclusion of this bizarre event in her home page and what motives might 
have engendered such inclusion.

Of course, my preoccupation is with an episode that occurred with Dr. 
Aldon Lynn Nielson with the backdrop of the Buffalo Poetics list behind it.

The MLA was in town, Washington DC,  several years ago and I attended a 
reading  of 'alternative' poets many of whom hovered around the Language 
school, Electronic Poetry Center and Buffalo. There were 22 readers and 
the hotel they read at was a half block from Bridge Street Books, so I 
dubbed them the Bridge Street 22. My critique of the reading was rather 
scathing, even dismissive. Anything less would have been such a 
violation of fact and experience, it would have been dubbed French. I 
believe I said that if these poets were the future of poetry then the 
proper study of poetry is eschatology. Then I elaborated on the not so 
different voices.

The short review found its way onto the Buffalo list which I had been 
tossed off of two years prior for defending the virtue of Henry Gould 
and Gabe Gudding one of whom turned out to be a whore. Heated 
condemnation impuning my talents, sanity, motives and heritage ensued on 
the Buffalo list, attacks which i could not counter publically in that 
forum. Ron Silliman accused me of being a publicity seeker, even as I 
gazed upon an 8x10  glossy of the anchorite Silliman with his arm around 
the waist of Lyn Lifshin.

Among these attacks was one from Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson claimed that 
he had attended one of my readings where I bored the audience thereby 
somehow undermining my claim of boredom with the Bridge Street 22. Since 
I have only given 2 readings in the last 25 years, I was not hard 
pressed to discern which reading that Dr. Nielson was alluding to and in 
the process also discovered what thoroughly bald faced liar Dr. Nielson 
is, especially when protected by my anonymity. Why? Because far from 
being a boring reading, that reading nearly ended in a riot. And what's 
more in staid, yuppie Washington no less where a poem about your Toyota 
breaking down in the snow is standard radical fare and Rod Smith's 
porridge o CIA missives is sen as a warning to intelligence agencies 
everywhere that the lang pos are angry and they ain't gonna take it any 
more..

Dr. Nielson was alluding to the tenth anniversary reading of Gargoyle 
magazine where I was the 8th of 10 readers. I lead with a couple of 
hundred lines of my usual critique of scientific formalisms which may 
have not risen to Dr. Nielsen's quality of mind or elaborate and exotic 
tastes. But then I read a section of a poem entitled House Party 
Startin' (dedicated to Herbie Nichols) which begin with lines from 
Diogenes---"The only place to spit in a rich man's house is in his 
face." The poem goes on to describe a series of revolutionary terrorist 
activities from the perspective of Rugama, Phan van Trih et al.

Immediately boos and hisses rose from the audience. Then empty paper 
cups flew. A old drunk Takoma Park beat poet stood up and told the 
shitbags to "shut the fuck up because finally their was a little poetry 
in the room." A couple of punches were thrown and the old guy was 
escorted from the room as I finished the piece in a voice I can and do 
and love to boom with awful frequency. A few in the room were for me. 
Most others, being middle class yuppie whores of the kleptocracy that 
employed them, were embarrassed and offended and more vocal than normal. 
Poets in Washington are generally white bread nothings (which in 
Washington includes poets of all races) with the personalities and 
talents of those who can only aspire to become laureates and prize 
winners and nothing more.

But Dr. Nielson either from lapse of memory or the fact that he's a 
careerist liar, told the Buffalo list that the reading was 'boring.' I 
can tell you there was no heat at the Brudge Street 22 reading Dr. 
Nielson was so eager to defend. In fact, the most memorable event was 
the staff of FlashPoint magazine walking out before Charles Bernstein 
read, Dr. Bernstein having reserved the last and most prized reading 
slot for himself. I was sitting next to Loss Glazer. When I introduced 
myself and put my hand out to shake his, he had this look on his face 
like "Please, don't hurt me." And after all that tough talk from his 
electronic igloo in Buffalo.

Perhaps, Dr. Nielson was confusing 'boring' e.g. Bridge Street with 
'boorish' e.g. my performance. Because what kind of fire and ice is a 
professor of African American Lit and Jazz expected to be able to 
handle, judging from what milk toasts black poets are. Now, that's true 
in Washington where the poobah of black poetry, E. Ethelbert Miller 
writes like a white suburban housewife. Amira Baraka might ask a bit 
more of Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson is a pair of gelding shears around 
black culture.

I do 2 readings in 25 years and an asshole like Dr. Nielson has got to 
lie about it. I suspect he was offended by my performance even as he was 
writing glowingly about Archie Shepp just weeks after I'd hung with 
Shepp's band through 3 sets at the One Step Down.. What risk in lying 
about me? Alternatively, what risk in my being truthful about the Bridge 
Street 22 as we again reprise and paraphrase the Plato/Diogenes thing?  
CP           




Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:47:41 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>> On Mairead Byrne's site, she has a poem from Alan Dugan that begins:
>>
>> "*POEM*
>>
>> After your first poetry reading
>> I shook hands with you
>> and got a hard-on. Thank you."
>
>
>
> A class act all the way.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From antrobin at clipper.net  Wed May 11 00:30:11 2005
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:30:11 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <428187E5.5050602@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <088a01c555e2$263e15a0$17321c40@Emily>

What a nut.



-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alphaville
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:20 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives

<A class act all the way.>

I' m assuming that your reference is to Dugan and not Ms. Byrne for 
inclusion of this bizarre event in her home page and what motives might 
have engendered such inclusion.

Of course, my preoccupation is with an episode that occurred with Dr. 
Aldon Lynn Nielson with the backdrop of the Buffalo Poetics list behind
it.

The MLA was in town, Washington DC,  several years ago and I attended a 
reading  of 'alternative' poets many of whom hovered around the Language

school, Electronic Poetry Center and Buffalo. There were 22 readers and 
the hotel they read at was a half block from Bridge Street Books, so I 
dubbed them the Bridge Street 22. My critique of the reading was rather 
scathing, even dismissive. Anything less would have been such a 
violation of fact and experience, it would have been dubbed French. I 
believe I said that if these poets were the future of poetry then the 
proper study of poetry is eschatology. Then I elaborated on the not so 
different voices.

The short review found its way onto the Buffalo list which I had been 
tossed off of two years prior for defending the virtue of Henry Gould 
and Gabe Gudding one of whom turned out to be a whore. Heated 
condemnation impuning my talents, sanity, motives and heritage ensued on

the Buffalo list, attacks which i could not counter publically in that 
forum. Ron Silliman accused me of being a publicity seeker, even as I 
gazed upon an 8x10  glossy of the anchorite Silliman with his arm around

the waist of Lyn Lifshin.

Among these attacks was one from Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson claimed that 
he had attended one of my readings where I bored the audience thereby 
somehow undermining my claim of boredom with the Bridge Street 22. Since

I have only given 2 readings in the last 25 years, I was not hard 
pressed to discern which reading that Dr. Nielson was alluding to and in

the process also discovered what thoroughly bald faced liar Dr. Nielson 
is, especially when protected by my anonymity. Why? Because far from 
being a boring reading, that reading nearly ended in a riot. And what's 
more in staid, yuppie Washington no less where a poem about your Toyota 
breaking down in the snow is standard radical fare and Rod Smith's 
porridge o CIA missives is sen as a warning to intelligence agencies 
everywhere that the lang pos are angry and they ain't gonna take it any 
more..

Dr. Nielson was alluding to the tenth anniversary reading of Gargoyle 
magazine where I was the 8th of 10 readers. I lead with a couple of 
hundred lines of my usual critique of scientific formalisms which may 
have not risen to Dr. Nielsen's quality of mind or elaborate and exotic 
tastes. But then I read a section of a poem entitled House Party 
Startin' (dedicated to Herbie Nichols) which begin with lines from 
Diogenes---"The only place to spit in a rich man's house is in his 
face." The poem goes on to describe a series of revolutionary terrorist 
activities from the perspective of Rugama, Phan van Trih et al.

Immediately boos and hisses rose from the audience. Then empty paper 
cups flew. A old drunk Takoma Park beat poet stood up and told the 
shitbags to "shut the fuck up because finally their was a little poetry 
in the room." A couple of punches were thrown and the old guy was 
escorted from the room as I finished the piece in a voice I can and do 
and love to boom with awful frequency. A few in the room were for me. 
Most others, being middle class yuppie whores of the kleptocracy that 
employed them, were embarrassed and offended and more vocal than normal.

Poets in Washington are generally white bread nothings (which in 
Washington includes poets of all races) with the personalities and 
talents of those who can only aspire to become laureates and prize 
winners and nothing more.

But Dr. Nielson either from lapse of memory or the fact that he's a 
careerist liar, told the Buffalo list that the reading was 'boring.' I 
can tell you there was no heat at the Brudge Street 22 reading Dr. 
Nielson was so eager to defend. In fact, the most memorable event was 
the staff of FlashPoint magazine walking out before Charles Bernstein 
read, Dr. Bernstein having reserved the last and most prized reading 
slot for himself. I was sitting next to Loss Glazer. When I introduced 
myself and put my hand out to shake his, he had this look on his face 
like "Please, don't hurt me." And after all that tough talk from his 
electronic igloo in Buffalo.

Perhaps, Dr. Nielson was confusing 'boring' e.g. Bridge Street with 
'boorish' e.g. my performance. Because what kind of fire and ice is a 
professor of African American Lit and Jazz expected to be able to 
handle, judging from what milk toasts black poets are. Now, that's true 
in Washington where the poobah of black poetry, E. Ethelbert Miller 
writes like a white suburban housewife. Amira Baraka might ask a bit 
more of Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson is a pair of gelding shears around 
black culture.

I do 2 readings in 25 years and an asshole like Dr. Nielson has got to 
lie about it. I suspect he was offended by my performance even as he was

writing glowingly about Archie Shepp just weeks after I'd hung with 
Shepp's band through 3 sets at the One Step Down.. What risk in lying 
about me? Alternatively, what risk in my being truthful about the Bridge

Street 22 as we again reprise and paraphrase the Plato/Diogenes thing?  
CP           




Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:47:41 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>> On Mairead Byrne's site, she has a poem from Alan Dugan that begins:
>>
>> "*POEM*
>>
>> After your first poetry reading
>> I shook hands with you
>> and got a hard-on. Thank you."
>
>
>
> A class act all the way.
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed May 11 00:45:55 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:45:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <088a01c555e2$263e15a0$17321c40@Emily>
References: <088a01c555e2$263e15a0$17321c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <42818E03.10108@ix.netcom.com>

ad hominem

Anthony Robinson wrote:

>What a nut.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alphaville
>Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:20 PM
>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
>
><A class act all the way.>
>
>I' m assuming that your reference is to Dugan and not Ms. Byrne for 
>inclusion of this bizarre event in her home page and what motives might 
>have engendered such inclusion.
>
>Of course, my preoccupation is with an episode that occurred with Dr. 
>Aldon Lynn Nielson with the backdrop of the Buffalo Poetics list behind
>it.
>
>The MLA was in town, Washington DC,  several years ago and I attended a 
>reading  of 'alternative' poets many of whom hovered around the Language
>
>school, Electronic Poetry Center and Buffalo. There were 22 readers and 
>the hotel they read at was a half block from Bridge Street Books, so I 
>dubbed them the Bridge Street 22. My critique of the reading was rather 
>scathing, even dismissive. Anything less would have been such a 
>violation of fact and experience, it would have been dubbed French. I 
>believe I said that if these poets were the future of poetry then the 
>proper study of poetry is eschatology. Then I elaborated on the not so 
>different voices.
>
>The short review found its way onto the Buffalo list which I had been 
>tossed off of two years prior for defending the virtue of Henry Gould 
>and Gabe Gudding one of whom turned out to be a whore. Heated 
>condemnation impuning my talents, sanity, motives and heritage ensued on
>
>the Buffalo list, attacks which i could not counter publically in that 
>forum. Ron Silliman accused me of being a publicity seeker, even as I 
>gazed upon an 8x10  glossy of the anchorite Silliman with his arm around
>
>the waist of Lyn Lifshin.
>
>Among these attacks was one from Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson claimed that 
>he had attended one of my readings where I bored the audience thereby 
>somehow undermining my claim of boredom with the Bridge Street 22. Since
>
>I have only given 2 readings in the last 25 years, I was not hard 
>pressed to discern which reading that Dr. Nielson was alluding to and in
>
>the process also discovered what thoroughly bald faced liar Dr. Nielson 
>is, especially when protected by my anonymity. Why? Because far from 
>being a boring reading, that reading nearly ended in a riot. And what's 
>more in staid, yuppie Washington no less where a poem about your Toyota 
>breaking down in the snow is standard radical fare and Rod Smith's 
>porridge o CIA missives is sen as a warning to intelligence agencies 
>everywhere that the lang pos are angry and they ain't gonna take it any 
>more..
>
>Dr. Nielson was alluding to the tenth anniversary reading of Gargoyle 
>magazine where I was the 8th of 10 readers. I lead with a couple of 
>hundred lines of my usual critique of scientific formalisms which may 
>have not risen to Dr. Nielsen's quality of mind or elaborate and exotic 
>tastes. But then I read a section of a poem entitled House Party 
>Startin' (dedicated to Herbie Nichols) which begin with lines from 
>Diogenes---"The only place to spit in a rich man's house is in his 
>face." The poem goes on to describe a series of revolutionary terrorist 
>activities from the perspective of Rugama, Phan van Trih et al.
>
>Immediately boos and hisses rose from the audience. Then empty paper 
>cups flew. A old drunk Takoma Park beat poet stood up and told the 
>shitbags to "shut the fuck up because finally their was a little poetry 
>in the room." A couple of punches were thrown and the old guy was 
>escorted from the room as I finished the piece in a voice I can and do 
>and love to boom with awful frequency. A few in the room were for me. 
>Most others, being middle class yuppie whores of the kleptocracy that 
>employed them, were embarrassed and offended and more vocal than normal.
>
>Poets in Washington are generally white bread nothings (which in 
>Washington includes poets of all races) with the personalities and 
>talents of those who can only aspire to become laureates and prize 
>winners and nothing more.
>
>But Dr. Nielson either from lapse of memory or the fact that he's a 
>careerist liar, told the Buffalo list that the reading was 'boring.' I 
>can tell you there was no heat at the Brudge Street 22 reading Dr. 
>Nielson was so eager to defend. In fact, the most memorable event was 
>the staff of FlashPoint magazine walking out before Charles Bernstein 
>read, Dr. Bernstein having reserved the last and most prized reading 
>slot for himself. I was sitting next to Loss Glazer. When I introduced 
>myself and put my hand out to shake his, he had this look on his face 
>like "Please, don't hurt me." And after all that tough talk from his 
>electronic igloo in Buffalo.
>
>Perhaps, Dr. Nielson was confusing 'boring' e.g. Bridge Street with 
>'boorish' e.g. my performance. Because what kind of fire and ice is a 
>professor of African American Lit and Jazz expected to be able to 
>handle, judging from what milk toasts black poets are. Now, that's true 
>in Washington where the poobah of black poetry, E. Ethelbert Miller 
>writes like a white suburban housewife. Amira Baraka might ask a bit 
>more of Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson is a pair of gelding shears around 
>black culture.
>
>I do 2 readings in 25 years and an asshole like Dr. Nielson has got to 
>lie about it. I suspect he was offended by my performance even as he was
>
>writing glowingly about Archie Shepp just weeks after I'd hung with 
>Shepp's band through 3 sets at the One Step Down.. What risk in lying 
>about me? Alternatively, what risk in my being truthful about the Bridge
>
>Street 22 as we again reprise and paraphrase the Plato/Diogenes thing?  
>CP           
>
>
>
>
>Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
>
>  
>
>>In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:47:41 PM Central Daylight Time, 
>>alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On Mairead Byrne's site, she has a poem from Alan Dugan that begins:
>>>
>>>"*POEM*
>>>
>>>After your first poetry reading
>>>I shook hands with you
>>>and got a hard-on. Thank you."
>>>      
>>>
>>
>>A class act all the way.
>>
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    
>>
>-
>  
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From mbyrne at risd.edu  Wed May 11 00:47:15 2005
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:47:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
Message-ID: <s281562c.058@risd.edu>

Dear Carlo,

The Dugan poem is wonderful.   I think I had a specific reason for posting it on my blog though I can't remember now.  I knew him when I lived in Provincetown 1987-1988.  He gave me a handwritten copy of this poem on an envelope.  I was too shy to
ask him about it.  Later I think I saw it had been published at an earlier date, so I
was always unclear about it.  He was wonderful.  At that time he had been lamed as a result of a surgeon's mistake, he wasn't drinking any more, he was full of humor, I loved him.  I kept in touch with him, especially on his birthday and his wife Judy's birthday.  This poem is from my blog too:

TRUE EXCUSE

for Dugan

I cannot go to your memorial service.
I have to go to the circus that day.
But I remember you.


mairead 12/5/2003 10:01:34 PM 

He was the first poet who made poetry readings alive for me.  

Mairead


>>> alphavil at ix.netcom.com 05/11/05 12:19 AM >>>
<A class act all the way.>

I' m assuming that your reference is to Dugan and not Ms. Byrne for 
inclusion of this bizarre event in her home page and what motives might 
have engendered such inclusion.

Of course, my preoccupation is with an episode that occurred with Dr. 
Aldon Lynn Nielson with the backdrop of the Buffalo Poetics list behind it.

The MLA was in town, Washington DC,  several years ago and I attended a 
reading  of 'alternative' poets many of whom hovered around the Language 
school, Electronic Poetry Center and Buffalo. There were 22 readers and 
the hotel they read at was a half block from Bridge Street Books, so I 
dubbed them the Bridge Street 22. My critique of the reading was rather 
scathing, even dismissive. Anything less would have been such a 
violation of fact and experience, it would have been dubbed French. I 
believe I said that if these poets were the future of poetry then the 
proper study of poetry is eschatology. Then I elaborated on the not so 
different voices.

The short review found its way onto the Buffalo list which I had been 
tossed off of two years prior for defending the virtue of Henry Gould 
and Gabe Gudding one of whom turned out to be a whore. Heated 
condemnation impuning my talents, sanity, motives and heritage ensued on 
the Buffalo list, attacks which i could not counter publically in that 
forum. Ron Silliman accused me of being a publicity seeker, even as I 
gazed upon an 8x10  glossy of the anchorite Silliman with his arm around 
the waist of Lyn Lifshin.

Among these attacks was one from Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson claimed that 
he had attended one of my readings where I bored the audience thereby 
somehow undermining my claim of boredom with the Bridge Street 22. Since 
I have only given 2 readings in the last 25 years, I was not hard 
pressed to discern which reading that Dr. Nielson was alluding to and in 
the process also discovered what thoroughly bald faced liar Dr. Nielson 
is, especially when protected by my anonymity. Why? Because far from 
being a boring reading, that reading nearly ended in a riot. And what's 
more in staid, yuppie Washington no less where a poem about your Toyota 
breaking down in the snow is standard radical fare and Rod Smith's 
porridge o CIA missives is sen as a warning to intelligence agencies 
everywhere that the lang pos are angry and they ain't gonna take it any 
more..

Dr. Nielson was alluding to the tenth anniversary reading of Gargoyle 
magazine where I was the 8th of 10 readers. I lead with a couple of 
hundred lines of my usual critique of scientific formalisms which may 
have not risen to Dr. Nielsen's quality of mind or elaborate and exotic 
tastes. But then I read a section of a poem entitled House Party 
Startin' (dedicated to Herbie Nichols) which begin with lines from 
Diogenes---"The only place to spit in a rich man's house is in his 
face." The poem goes on to describe a series of revolutionary terrorist 
activities from the perspective of Rugama, Phan van Trih et al.

Immediately boos and hisses rose from the audience. Then empty paper 
cups flew. A old drunk Takoma Park beat poet stood up and told the 
shitbags to "shut the fuck up because finally their was a little poetry 
in the room." A couple of punches were thrown and the old guy was 
escorted from the room as I finished the piece in a voice I can and do 
and love to boom with awful frequency. A few in the room were for me. 
Most others, being middle class yuppie whores of the kleptocracy that 
employed them, were embarrassed and offended and more vocal than normal. 
Poets in Washington are generally white bread nothings (which in 
Washington includes poets of all races) with the personalities and 
talents of those who can only aspire to become laureates and prize 
winners and nothing more.

But Dr. Nielson either from lapse of memory or the fact that he's a 
careerist liar, told the Buffalo list that the reading was 'boring.' I 
can tell you there was no heat at the Brudge Street 22 reading Dr. 
Nielson was so eager to defend. In fact, the most memorable event was 
the staff of FlashPoint magazine walking out before Charles Bernstein 
read, Dr. Bernstein having reserved the last and most prized reading 
slot for himself. I was sitting next to Loss Glazer. When I introduced 
myself and put my hand out to shake his, he had this look on his face 
like "Please, don't hurt me." And after all that tough talk from his 
electronic igloo in Buffalo.

Perhaps, Dr. Nielson was confusing 'boring' e.g. Bridge Street with 
'boorish' e.g. my performance. Because what kind of fire and ice is a 
professor of African American Lit and Jazz expected to be able to 
handle, judging from what milk toasts black poets are. Now, that's true 
in Washington where the poobah of black poetry, E. Ethelbert Miller 
writes like a white suburban housewife. Amira Baraka might ask a bit 
more of Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson is a pair of gelding shears around 
black culture.

I do 2 readings in 25 years and an asshole like Dr. Nielson has got to 
lie about it. I suspect he was offended by my performance even as he was 
writing glowingly about Archie Shepp just weeks after I'd hung with 
Shepp's band through 3 sets at the One Step Down.. What risk in lying 
about me? Alternatively, what risk in my being truthful about the Bridge 
Street 22 as we again reprise and paraphrase the Plato/Diogenes thing?  
CP           




Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:47:41 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>> On Mairead Byrne's site, she has a poem from Alan Dugan that begins:
>>
>> "*POEM*
>>
>> After your first poetry reading
>> I shook hands with you
>> and got a hard-on. Thank you."
>
>
>
> A class act all the way.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed May 11 00:56:01 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:56:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <s281562c.058@risd.edu>
References: <s281562c.058@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <42819061.1050603@ix.netcom.com>

Frankly, I don't care. You should address Gwynn(sic.)
who said about Dugan, I think <A class act all the way.>

I just saw the opportunity to fuck with that liar Nielson. I'm 
considering a blog since The Assassinated Press is costing me bucks in 
computer repair from hackers and justifiably spooking my family. CP

Mairead Byrne wrote:

> Dear Carlo,
>
> The Dugan poem is wonderful.   I think I had a specific reason for 
> posting it on my blog though I can't remember now.  I knew him when I 
> lived in Provincetown 1987-1988.  He gave me a handwritten copy of 
> this poem on an envelope.  I was too shy to
> ask him about it.  Later I think I saw it had been published at an 
> earlier date, so I
> was always unclear about it.  He was wonderful.  At that time he had 
> been lamed as a result of a surgeon's mistake, he wasn't drinking any 
> more, he was full of humor, I loved him.  I kept in touch with him, 
> especially on his birthday and his wife Judy's birthday.  This poem is 
> from my blog too:
>
> TRUE EXCUSE
>
> for Dugan
>
> I cannot go to your memorial service.
> I have to go to the circus that day.
> But I remember you.
>
>
> mairead 12/5/2003 10:01:34 PM
> He was the first poet who made poetry readings alive for me. 
> Mairead
>
>
>  
>
>>>> alphavil at ix.netcom.com 05/11/05 12:19 AM >>>
>>>>       
>>>
> <A class act all the way.>
>
> I' m assuming that your reference is to Dugan and not Ms. Byrne for 
> inclusion of this bizarre event in her home page and what motives 
> might have engendered such inclusion.
>
> Of course, my preoccupation is with an episode that occurred with Dr. 
> Aldon Lynn Nielson with the backdrop of the Buffalo Poetics list 
> behind it.
>
> The MLA was in town, Washington DC,  several years ago and I attended 
> a reading  of 'alternative' poets many of whom hovered around the 
> Language school, Electronic Poetry Center and Buffalo. There were 22 
> readers and the hotel they read at was a half block from Bridge Street 
> Books, so I dubbed them the Bridge Street 22. My critique of the 
> reading was rather scathing, even dismissive. Anything less would have 
> been such a violation of fact and experience, it would have been 
> dubbed French. I believe I said that if these poets were the future of 
> poetry then the proper study of poetry is eschatology. Then I 
> elaborated on the not so different voices.
>
> The short review found its way onto the Buffalo list which I had been 
> tossed off of two years prior for defending the virtue of Henry Gould 
> and Gabe Gudding one of whom turned out to be a whore. Heated 
> condemnation impuning my talents, sanity, motives and heritage ensued 
> on the Buffalo list, attacks which i could not counter publically in 
> that forum. Ron Silliman accused me of being a publicity seeker, even 
> as I gazed upon an 8x10  glossy of the anchorite Silliman with his arm 
> around the waist of Lyn Lifshin.
>
> Among these attacks was one from Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson claimed that 
> he had attended one of my readings where I bored the audience thereby 
> somehow undermining my claim of boredom with the Bridge Street 22. 
> Since I have only given 2 readings in the last 25 years, I was not 
> hard pressed to discern which reading that Dr. Nielson was alluding to 
> and in the process also discovered what thoroughly bald faced liar Dr. 
> Nielson is, especially when protected by my anonymity. Why? Because 
> far from being a boring reading, that reading nearly ended in a riot. 
> And what's more in staid, yuppie Washington no less where a poem about 
> your Toyota breaking down in the snow is standard radical fare and Rod 
> Smith's porridge o CIA missives is sen as a warning to intelligence 
> agencies everywhere that the lang pos are angry and they ain't gonna 
> take it any more..
>
> Dr. Nielson was alluding to the tenth anniversary reading of Gargoyle 
> magazine where I was the 8th of 10 readers. I lead with a couple of 
> hundred lines of my usual critique of scientific formalisms which may 
> have not risen to Dr. Nielsen's quality of mind or elaborate and 
> exotic tastes. But then I read a section of a poem entitled House 
> Party Startin' (dedicated to Herbie Nichols) which begin with lines 
> from Diogenes---"The only place to spit in a rich man's house is in 
> his face." The poem goes on to describe a series of revolutionary 
> terrorist activities from the perspective of Rugama, Phan van Trih et al.
>
> Immediately boos and hisses rose from the audience. Then empty paper 
> cups flew. A old drunk Takoma Park beat poet stood up and told the 
> shitbags to "shut the fuck up because finally their was a little 
> poetry in the room." A couple of punches were thrown and the old guy 
> was escorted from the room as I finished the piece in a voice I can 
> and do and love to boom with awful frequency. A few in the room were 
> for me. Most others, being middle class yuppie whores of the 
> kleptocracy that employed them, were embarrassed and offended and more 
> vocal than normal. Poets in Washington are generally white bread 
> nothings (which in Washington includes poets of all races) with the 
> personalities and talents of those who can only aspire to become 
> laureates and prize winners and nothing more.
>
> But Dr. Nielson either from lapse of memory or the fact that he's a 
> careerist liar, told the Buffalo list that the reading was 'boring.' I 
> can tell you there was no heat at the Brudge Street 22 reading Dr. 
> Nielson was so eager to defend. In fact, the most memorable event was 
> the staff of FlashPoint magazine walking out before Charles Bernstein 
> read, Dr. Bernstein having reserved the last and most prized reading 
> slot for himself. I was sitting next to Loss Glazer. When I introduced 
> myself and put my hand out to shake his, he had this look on his face 
> like "Please, don't hurt me." And after all that tough talk from his 
> electronic igloo in Buffalo.
>
> Perhaps, Dr. Nielson was confusing 'boring' e.g. Bridge Street with 
> 'boorish' e.g. my performance. Because what kind of fire and ice is a 
> professor of African American Lit and Jazz expected to be able to 
> handle, judging from what milk toasts black poets are. Now, that's 
> true in Washington where the poobah of black poetry, E. Ethelbert 
> Miller writes like a white suburban housewife. Amira Baraka might ask 
> a bit more of Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson is a pair of gelding shears 
> around black culture.
>
> I do 2 readings in 25 years and an asshole like Dr. Nielson has got to 
> lie about it. I suspect he was offended by my performance even as he 
> was writing glowingly about Archie Shepp just weeks after I'd hung 
> with Shepp's band through 3 sets at the One Step Down.. What risk in 
> lying about me? Alternatively, what risk in my being truthful about 
> the Bridge Street 22 as we again reprise and paraphrase the 
> Plato/Diogenes thing?  CP          
>
>
>
> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
>
>  
>
>> In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:47:41 PM Central Daylight Time, 
>> alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>>
>>   
>>
>>> On Mairead Byrne's site, she has a poem from Alan Dugan that begins:
>>>
>>> "*POEM*
>>>
>>> After your first poetry reading
>>> I shook hands with you
>>> and got a hard-on. Thank you."
>>>     
>>
>>
>> A class act all the way.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>   
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>  
>


Mairead Byrne wrote:

>Dear Carlo,
>
>The Dugan poem is wonderful.   I think I had a specific reason for posting it on my blog though I can't remember now.  I knew him when I lived in Provincetown 1987-1988.  He gave me a handwritten copy of this poem on an envelope.  I was too shy to
>ask him about it.  Later I think I saw it had been published at an earlier date, so I
>was always unclear about it.  He was wonderful.  At that time he had been lamed as a result of a surgeon's mistake, he wasn't drinking any more, he was full of humor, I loved him.  I kept in touch with him, especially on his birthday and his wife Judy's birthday.  This poem is from my blog too:
>
>TRUE EXCUSE
>
>for Dugan
>
>I cannot go to your memorial service.
>I have to go to the circus that day.
>But I remember you.
>
>
>mairead 12/5/2003 10:01:34 PM 
>
>He was the first poet who made poetry readings alive for me.  
>
>Mairead
>
>
>  
>
>>>>alphavil at ix.netcom.com 05/11/05 12:19 AM >>>
>>>>        
>>>>
><A class act all the way.>
>
>I' m assuming that your reference is to Dugan and not Ms. Byrne for 
>inclusion of this bizarre event in her home page and what motives might 
>have engendered such inclusion.
>
>Of course, my preoccupation is with an episode that occurred with Dr. 
>Aldon Lynn Nielson with the backdrop of the Buffalo Poetics list behind it.
>
>The MLA was in town, Washington DC,  several years ago and I attended a 
>reading  of 'alternative' poets many of whom hovered around the Language 
>school, Electronic Poetry Center and Buffalo. There were 22 readers and 
>the hotel they read at was a half block from Bridge Street Books, so I 
>dubbed them the Bridge Street 22. My critique of the reading was rather 
>scathing, even dismissive. Anything less would have been such a 
>violation of fact and experience, it would have been dubbed French. I 
>believe I said that if these poets were the future of poetry then the 
>proper study of poetry is eschatology. Then I elaborated on the not so 
>different voices.
>
>The short review found its way onto the Buffalo list which I had been 
>tossed off of two years prior for defending the virtue of Henry Gould 
>and Gabe Gudding one of whom turned out to be a whore. Heated 
>condemnation impuning my talents, sanity, motives and heritage ensued on 
>the Buffalo list, attacks which i could not counter publically in that 
>forum. Ron Silliman accused me of being a publicity seeker, even as I 
>gazed upon an 8x10  glossy of the anchorite Silliman with his arm around 
>the waist of Lyn Lifshin.
>
>Among these attacks was one from Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson claimed that 
>he had attended one of my readings where I bored the audience thereby 
>somehow undermining my claim of boredom with the Bridge Street 22. Since 
>I have only given 2 readings in the last 25 years, I was not hard 
>pressed to discern which reading that Dr. Nielson was alluding to and in 
>the process also discovered what thoroughly bald faced liar Dr. Nielson 
>is, especially when protected by my anonymity. Why? Because far from 
>being a boring reading, that reading nearly ended in a riot. And what's 
>more in staid, yuppie Washington no less where a poem about your Toyota 
>breaking down in the snow is standard radical fare and Rod Smith's 
>porridge o CIA missives is sen as a warning to intelligence agencies 
>everywhere that the lang pos are angry and they ain't gonna take it any 
>more..
>
>Dr. Nielson was alluding to the tenth anniversary reading of Gargoyle 
>magazine where I was the 8th of 10 readers. I lead with a couple of 
>hundred lines of my usual critique of scientific formalisms which may 
>have not risen to Dr. Nielsen's quality of mind or elaborate and exotic 
>tastes. But then I read a section of a poem entitled House Party 
>Startin' (dedicated to Herbie Nichols) which begin with lines from 
>Diogenes---"The only place to spit in a rich man's house is in his 
>face." The poem goes on to describe a series of revolutionary terrorist 
>activities from the perspective of Rugama, Phan van Trih et al.
>
>Immediately boos and hisses rose from the audience. Then empty paper 
>cups flew. A old drunk Takoma Park beat poet stood up and told the 
>shitbags to "shut the fuck up because finally their was a little poetry 
>in the room." A couple of punches were thrown and the old guy was 
>escorted from the room as I finished the piece in a voice I can and do 
>and love to boom with awful frequency. A few in the room were for me. 
>Most others, being middle class yuppie whores of the kleptocracy that 
>employed them, were embarrassed and offended and more vocal than normal. 
>Poets in Washington are generally white bread nothings (which in 
>Washington includes poets of all races) with the personalities and 
>talents of those who can only aspire to become laureates and prize 
>winners and nothing more.
>
>But Dr. Nielson either from lapse of memory or the fact that he's a 
>careerist liar, told the Buffalo list that the reading was 'boring.' I 
>can tell you there was no heat at the Brudge Street 22 reading Dr. 
>Nielson was so eager to defend. In fact, the most memorable event was 
>the staff of FlashPoint magazine walking out before Charles Bernstein 
>read, Dr. Bernstein having reserved the last and most prized reading 
>slot for himself. I was sitting next to Loss Glazer. When I introduced 
>myself and put my hand out to shake his, he had this look on his face 
>like "Please, don't hurt me." And after all that tough talk from his 
>electronic igloo in Buffalo.
>
>Perhaps, Dr. Nielson was confusing 'boring' e.g. Bridge Street with 
>'boorish' e.g. my performance. Because what kind of fire and ice is a 
>professor of African American Lit and Jazz expected to be able to 
>handle, judging from what milk toasts black poets are. Now, that's true 
>in Washington where the poobah of black poetry, E. Ethelbert Miller 
>writes like a white suburban housewife. Amira Baraka might ask a bit 
>more of Dr. Nielson. Dr. Nielson is a pair of gelding shears around 
>black culture.
>
>I do 2 readings in 25 years and an asshole like Dr. Nielson has got to 
>lie about it. I suspect he was offended by my performance even as he was 
>writing glowingly about Archie Shepp just weeks after I'd hung with 
>Shepp's band through 3 sets at the One Step Down.. What risk in lying 
>about me? Alternatively, what risk in my being truthful about the Bridge 
>Street 22 as we again reprise and paraphrase the Plato/Diogenes thing?  
>CP           
>
>
>
>
>Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
>
>  
>
>>In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:47:41 PM Central Daylight Time, 
>>alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On Mairead Byrne's site, she has a poem from Alan Dugan that begins:
>>>
>>>"*POEM*
>>>
>>>After your first poetry reading
>>>I shook hands with you
>>>and got a hard-on. Thank you."
>>>      
>>>
>>
>>A class act all the way.
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed May 11 02:37:48 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:37:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bemused Response ...
References: <s281562c.058@risd.edu> <42819061.1050603@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <0b4e01c555f3$f29df820$cb309b51@Robin>

What's happened to the verbal dress-code of this list?

I thought I knew it, but it seems I don't.

Maybe because I'm on the wrong side of the Pond.

Baffled from Britain




From uche at ogbuji.net  Wed May 11 08:31:22 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 06:31:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greetings
In-Reply-To: <ac.72f41e64.2fb20dcb@aol.com>
References: <ac.72f41e64.2fb20dcb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1115814682.1829.80.camel@malatesta>

On Tue, 2005-05-10 at 09:14 -0400, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/10/2005 7:52:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> uche at ogbuji.net writes:
>         
>         Thanks.  I'm glad you like it.  It's my pleasure to discuss
>         the Western
>         European poetic tradition in juxtaposition with the African.
> Uche,
> Is there a particular anthology you might recommend that
> is current with trends in contemporary African poetry?

Problem here.  A lot of what I have are, eh, mimeographed copies of
texts/anthologies of African lit (mostly South African lit or Nigerian
lit) dating from my University student days in Nsukka.  I have a few
proper books, but I don't think they're much good.  For example, the
well-known _A Book of African Verse_ by John Reed and Clive Wake
contains a few true gems (Lenrie Peters' "Parachute Men", J.P. Clark's
"Ibadan" and "Night Rain"...), a lot of poems that predate the best work
of Kofi Awoonor and Christopher Okigbo (Nigeria's greatest poet), a lot
of very dryly translated French (making Senghor and B. Diop sound
pedestrian is quite the academic feat), and a whole lot of passable
filler.

Because I have so much in the form of yellowed papers, I haven't done
much to look at the landscape of good African verse pubbed in the West.
I'll take some time to check out the state of such things...

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Wed May 11 08:56:00 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 06:56:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] African? West African? Nigerian? Eastern Nigerian?
	Nke-isi-Nsukka?
In-Reply-To: <088d01c55586$c718ff50$cb309b51@Robin>
References: <200505090810.j498AEqi144900@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
	<1115725888.1829.64.camel@malatesta>
	<088d01c55586$c718ff50$cb309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <1115816160.1829.101.camel@malatesta>

On Tue, 2005-05-10 at 18:36 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> > Thanks.  I'm glad you like it.  It's my pleasure to discuss the Western
> > European poetic tradition in juxtaposition with the African.
> 
> I'm mildly bothered here by Uche's use of the blanket term "African". Might
> be my take on it but I worry even about the difference between Rastafarian
> and Jamaican (and the minute that I say that, I'm aware that "Rastafarian"
> runs differently in the US and the UK, and even to cut to the bone, to
> generalise about Rastafarians in even Leeds makes nonsense) but how do you
> put Lynton Kwasi Johnston, James Braithwaite and Dereck Wolcott in the same
> bucket?

Context in all things.  I put Sappho, Quinto, Petrarca, Donne, Mallarm?
and Cavafy into the same bucket if the conversation merits it.  They're
all Western European poets.  I don't see how that implies any offense or
ignorance.  I don't see how that belittles the work of any individual
poet in that list, or of their respective cultures.

Of course there are times to be specific, and when it makes sense to be
more specific, I too dislike it when people use the word "Africa" to
identify one 3x3km geographical location within the vast continent.  But
there is such a thing as being too sensitive, you know.

If I meant that my sensibility was shaped merely by Okigbo, I might (but
wouldn't be required to) have said "Poetiri Isi Nsukka:

If I meant that my sensibility was also shaped by Okara, I might (but
wouldn't be required to) have said Eastern Nigerian poetry:

If I meant that my sensibility was also shaped by Soyinka, I might (but
wouldn't be required to) have said Nigerian poetry:

If I meant that my sensibility was also shaped by Brew, I might (but
wouldn't be required to) have said West African poetry:

But my my sensibility was also shaped by Brutus, Nicol, Ranaivo, and so
on, so how else should I term it but "African poetry"?

> The three are each poets of genius, in their different ways all in a loose
> or in an extended sense Jamaican, so exactly what the hell does the blanket
> term "African" *mean*?

Really, though.  I'm not intending to be flip, but it means precisely
what one would think: poetry by writers from (or with strong, immediate
ties to) the African continent.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Wed May 11 09:03:17 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:03:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Africa, etc.
In-Reply-To: <BEA66C41.11DA5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEA66C41.11DA5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <1115816597.1829.109.camel@malatesta>

On Tue, 2005-05-10 at 13:48 -0500, David Graham wrote:
> on 5/10/05 12:36 PM, Robin Hamilton at robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com wrote:
> 
> > how do you
> > put Lynton Kwasi Johnston, James Braithwaite and Dereck Wolcott in the same
> > bucket?
> 
> 
> Buckets aside, would that possibly be Linton Kwesi Johnson, Edward Kamau
> Brathwaite, and Derek Walcott?
> 
> I imagine Uche's use of the term "African" was shorthand for "deriving from
> African sources," not a claim that all such poetry is the same, any more
> than the European tradition is monolithic.

Precisely so.

> As for Saul Williams, I'd love to see some discussion of his work here.  I
> find his performances mesmerizing, but have had trouble getting a handle on
> his work on the page.

It's not meant for the page, any more than, say Beowulf was (B. made it
to the page thankfully during the "civilizing" transition from OE to
ME), but we've come to learn and appreciate the style thus.

I think it's the same thing with Saul Williams.  You have to recognize
that he is speaking within a certain measure (which is untrue of most
English verse regardless of poets' claims), and learn and appreciate it
the same way.  It takes practice, but it works.  As I said in the blog
entry, one has to hear Williams to really appreciate him, but in
discussion of his work, putting him on the page is easiest.  I suppose
best thing would be to use some audio essay format (which wouldn't be a
bad idea, if I had the time).

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 09:17:49 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:17:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
Message-ID: <f4.509c71e9.2fb35ffd@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/10/2005 11:20:32 PM Central Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
> 
> >>On Mairead Byrne's site, she has a poem from Alan Dugan that begins:
> >>
> >>"*POEM*
> >>
> >>After your first poetry reading
> >>I shook hands with you
> >>and got a hard-on. Thank you."
> >
> >
> >
> >A class act all the way.

Dugan, that is.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 09:19:31 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:19:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
Message-ID: <cf.286d7d92.2fb36063@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/10/2005 11:56:52 PM Central Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
> Frankly, I don't care. You should address Gwynn(sic.)
> who said about Dugan, I think 
> 
> I just saw the opportunity to fuck with that liar Nielson. I'm 
> considering a blog since The Assassinated Press is costing me bucks in 
> computer repair from hackers and justifiably spooking my family. CP

Uh, I didn't say this.  CP did.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 09:24:55 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:24:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
Message-ID: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/10/2005 11:20:32 PM Central Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
> I 
> believe I said that if these poets were the future of poetry then the 
> proper study of poetry is eschatology. Then I elaborated on the not so 
> different voices.

Scatology?
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 09:38:02 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:38:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <1e0.3c0ffb6c.2fb364ba@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/10/2005 10:37:12 PM Central Daylight Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> n 5/10/05 9:06 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> 
> >> Any writer on the American sonnet who does not mention Wylie and Millay 
>> is, if not beneath, at least somewhat lower than . . .contempt.  No one . . . 
>> I repeat, no one (well, Shakespeare excepted), did better by the form than 
>> Millay.  And Robinson (without slighting Frost) has at least a dozen that 
>> are among the stars.  
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> 
> Sam, how about mentioning some of Millay's best sonnets?  It's been a good 
> while since I looked seriously at her.
> 
> As for Frost &Robinson as sonneteers, I'd hate to have to choose between the 
> two--but I can think of  few *poems* better than "The Oven Bird," "The 
> Silken Tent" or "Never Again Would Birds' Song", much less sonnets.   
> 
> In any case, one of the most cherished books on my shelf is Robinson's 
> *Sonnets* from 1928--it's nice to have his sonnets culled from the Hardy-like 
> voluminousness of his collected poems.  
> 
> I had thought that this book was long out of print, but I note that Amazon 
> has a reprint for sale.  
> 
For Robinson, "New England," "Cliff Klingenhagen," "Karma," and the one about 
the butcher who tears down the slaughterhouse after his wife dies.

Millay: "If I should learn in some quite casual way" and "Oh, oh, you will be 
sorry for that word" and the Sonnets from an Ungrafted Tree sequence.

And don't forget Frost's "Acquainted with the Night," a very innovative 
sonnet.
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed May 11 03:27:36 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 02:27:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <a3.73690dbf.2fb2c2c3@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BEA71E18.8F0A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/10/05 9:06 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> Any writer on the American sonnet who does not mention Wylie and Millay is, if
> not beneath, at least somewhat lower than . . .contempt.  No one . . . I
> repeat, no one (well, Shakespeare excepted), did better by the form than
> Millay.  And Robinson (without slighting Frost) has at least a dozen that are
> among the stars. 


And as you know, Sam, if members of this list want to see the modern sonnet
in all its glory (though Millay and Robinson are too early to be included),
they can see the recently released Sonnets: 150 Contemporary Sonnets edited
by William Baer and published by Evansville University Press.  The book even
has a group of sonnets by one R. S. Gwynn.

Paul Lake
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 10:40:07 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:40:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <8.683c3713.2fb37347@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/11/2005 9:35:49 AM Central Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> And as you know, Sam, if members of this list want to see the modern sonnet 
> in all its glory (though Millay and Robinson are too early to be included), 
> they can see the recently released Sonnets: 150 Contemporary Sonnets edited 
> by William Baer and published by Evansville University Press.  The book even 
> has a group of sonnets by one R. S. Gwynn.  
> 
> Paul Lake 
Check's in the mail, Paul.
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From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Wed May 11 10:41:02 2005
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (roger day)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:41:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <143.44b9981a.2fb2a8d1@aol.com>
References: <143.44b9981a.2fb2a8d1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fde50348050511074140064f2d@mail.gmail.com>

Invention of form...is that not also an irrepressible motive to invention? 

I thought the English copied the sonnet from the Italian mode.
However, I don't see why Americans should follow a European model. The
original settlers went to America to be different in many ways so why
shouldn't modern day Americans continue in that tradition. It seems a
good one to me.

Berrigan said that you walk with Shakespeare when you write a
(shakespearean) sonnet. I don't buy it - why on earth would you want
to commune with a dead white (european) male? Isn't that something
akin to necrophilia? Even my nose turns up at that one and sometimes I
feel as if I'm pretty much chained to that particular smell.

Roger.

On 5/11/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>  
> http://www.poems.com/essabrom.htm 
>   
> But where does that leave the sonnet? If Emerson were altogether right,
> there could not be enough American sonnets to make a topic for an essay. He
> was, I think, half right. American poets have prized invention above all
> other qualities; but to the poet of original genius, form is an
> irrepressible motive to invention. 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
http://www.badstep.net



From mandolin at mac.com  Wed May 11 11:04:10 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:04:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <fde50348050511074140064f2d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <143.44b9981a.2fb2a8d1@aol.com>
	<fde50348050511074140064f2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15082080.1115823851123.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>



On Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 10:43AM, roger day <rog3r.day at gmail.com> wrote:

>Invention of form...is that not also an irrepressible motive to invention? 
>
>I thought the English copied the sonnet from the Italian mode.
>However, I don't see why Americans should follow a European model. The
>original settlers went to America to be different in many ways so why
>shouldn't modern day Americans continue in that tradition. It seems a
>good one to me.
>
>Berrigan said that you walk with Shakespeare when you write a
>(shakespearean) sonnet. I don't buy it - why on earth would you want
>to commune with a dead white (european) male? Isn't that something
>akin to necrophilia? Even my nose turns up at that one and sometimes I
>feel as if I'm pretty much chained to that particular smell.
>
>Roger.

Trolling? Or just badly educated?

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed May 11 11:07:14 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:07:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <15082080.1115823851123.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <fde50348050511074140064f2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4281E762.5416.1B2A04B3@localhost>

> On Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 10:43AM, roger day <rog3r.day at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >Invention of form...is that not also an irrepressible motive to invention? 
> >I thought the English copied the sonnet from the Italian mode.
> >However, I don't see why Americans should follow a European model. The
> >original settlers went to America to be different in many ways so why
> >shouldn't modern day Americans continue in that tradition. It seems a
> >good one to me.
> >Berrigan said that you walk with Shakespeare when you write a
> >(shakespearean) sonnet. I don't buy it - why on earth would you want
> >to commune with a dead white (european) male? Isn't that something
> >akin to necrophilia? Even my nose turns up at that one and sometimes I
> >feel as if I'm pretty much chained to that particular smell.

On 11 May 2005 at 11:04, Mike Snider wrote:
> Trolling? Or just badly educated?

Or both?

Marcus




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed May 11 11:07:33 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:07:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com>
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com>
Message-ID: <42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com>

<scatology?>

No. Eschatology. The study of the end of the world e.g. jokingly(?), the 
end of the poetic world . CP

Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/10/2005 11:20:32 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>> I
>> believe I said that if these poets were the future of poetry then the
>> proper study of poetry is eschatology. Then I elaborated on the not so
>> different voices.
>
>
>
> Scatology?
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 11:48:36 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:48:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
Message-ID: <fa.12fcefda.2fb38354@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/11/2005 10:09:11 AM Central Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> <scatology?>
> 
> No. Eschatology. The study of the end of the world e.g. jokingly(?), the 
> end of the poetic world . CP
> 
> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

As Miss Emily Litella used to say, "Never mind."
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed May 11 07:02:29 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 06:02:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <8.683c3713.2fb37347@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BEA75075.8F15%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/11/05 9:40 AM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

>> And as you know, Sam, if members of this list want to see the modern sonnet
>> in all its glory (though Millay and Robinson are too early to be included),
>> they can see the recently released Sonnets: 150 Contemporary Sonnets edited
>> by William Baer and published by Evansville University Press.  The book even
>> has a group of sonnets by one R. S. Gwynn.
>> 
>> Paul Lake 
> 
> Check's in the mail, Paul.

Didn?t you get a contributor?s copy? I got one, oh, a couple of weeks ago.


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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 14:30:36 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:30:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <1a3.338206c7.2fb3a94c@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/11/2005 1:07:27 PM Central Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> 
> >> Check's in the mail, Paul.
>> 
> 
> Didn?t you get a contributor?s copy? I got one, oh, a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
I meant the check for your plug.
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed May 11 07:39:45 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 06:39:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <1a3.338206c7.2fb3a94c@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BEA75931.8F1E%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/11/05 1:30 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

>>> Check's in the mail, Paul.
>> 
> 
> Didn?t you get a contributor?s copy? I got one, oh, a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> I meant the check for your plug.

 I?m a poet. I don?t sully my hands with filthy lucre.


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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed May 11 14:49:05 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:49:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <BEA75931.8F1E%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BEA75931.8F1E%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <9166653.1115837345600.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

I'll handle it for you!

 
On Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 02:45PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:

>
><<Original Attached>>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed May 11 07:50:27 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 06:50:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <9166653.1115837345600.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BEA75BB3.8F21%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/11/05 1:49 PM, "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

> I'll handle it for you!

Isn?t that what Michael Jackson told his bedmate?
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 14:56:08 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:56:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <14.451e9a84.2fb3af48@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/11/2005 1:51:22 PM Central Daylight Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes: 
> 
> I'll handle it for you!
> 
> 
Musicians.  I say no more.
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Wed May 11 15:07:16 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:07:16 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <BEA71E18.8F0A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BEA71E18.8F0A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <1115838436.1829.121.camel@malatesta>

On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 02:27 -0500, Paul Lake wrote:
> On 5/10/05 9:06 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:
> 
>         Any writer on the American sonnet who does not mention Wylie
>         and Millay is, if not beneath, at least somewhat lower
>         than . . .contempt.  No one . . . I repeat, no one (well,
>         Shakespeare excepted), did better by the form than Millay.
>          And Robinson (without slighting Frost) has at least a dozen
>         that are among the stars.  
> 
> 
> And as you know, Sam, if members of this list want to see the modern
> sonnet in all its glory (though Millay and Robinson are too early to
> be included), they can see the recently released Sonnets: 150
> Contemporary Sonnets edited by William Baer and published by
> Evansville University Press.  The book even has a group of sonnets by
> one R. S. Gwynn.  

Umm.  Dana Gioia, X.J. Kennedy, Anthony Hecht, Charles Martin, A.E.
Stallings, Mona Van Duyn, Richard Wilbur, Seamus Heaney?  Hells yeah.
That's what I call stacking the deck.  What am I waiting for?  Off to
Amazon to cop that.

BTW, not familiar with R.S. Gwynn yet, but in that sort of company, I
don't suspect it will be long before I am.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Wed May 11 15:17:07 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:17:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com>
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com>  <42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta>

On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 11:07 -0400, Alphaville wrote:
> <scatology?>
> 
> No. Eschatology. The study of the end of the world e.g. jokingly(?), the 
> end of the poetic world . CP

Ssssshhhh!  You'll wake up Israfel.  He has the most beautiful voice in
all creation, but there's this problem: he's also the herald of the
eschatology.

Why don't we stick to, like, doxology or, better yet, eudaemonology
instead?

Disclaimer: no, I'm not religious: I just have the lapsed Catholic's
greed for heretical gnosis.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed May 11 15:44:21 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:44:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta>
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com> <42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com>
	<1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <42826095.6020006@ix.netcom.com>

<Ssssshhhh!  You'll wake up Israfel.  He has the most beautiful voice in
all creation, but there's this problem: he's also the herald of the
eschatology.>

Israfel? Quaint. You mean Sir Isaac Newton, don't you? CP If URU?



Uche Ogbuji wrote:

>On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 11:07 -0400, Alphaville wrote:
>  
>
>><scatology?>
>>
>>No. Eschatology. The study of the end of the world e.g. jokingly(?), the 
>>end of the poetic world . CP
>>    
>>
>
>Ssssshhhh!  You'll wake up Israfel.  He has the most beautiful voice in
>all creation, but there's this problem: he's also the herald of the
>eschatology.
>
>Why don't we stick to, like, doxology or, better yet, eudaemonology
>instead?
>
>Disclaimer: no, I'm not religious: I just have the lapsed Catholic's
>greed for heretical gnosis.
>
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed May 11 16:00:56 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:00:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta>
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com> <42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com>
	<1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <42826478.4040603@ix.netcom.com>

Uche Ogbuji. Could you send us some of your poems? CP

Uche Ogbuji wrote:

>On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 11:07 -0400, Alphaville wrote:
>  
>
>><scatology?>
>>
>>No. Eschatology. The study of the end of the world e.g. jokingly(?), the 
>>end of the poetic world . CP
>>    
>>
>
>Ssssshhhh!  You'll wake up Israfel.  He has the most beautiful voice in
>all creation, but there's this problem: he's also the herald of the
>eschatology.
>
>Why don't we stick to, like, doxology or, better yet, eudaemonology
>instead?
>
>Disclaimer: no, I'm not religious: I just have the lapsed Catholic's
>greed for heretical gnosis.
>
>  
>


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed May 11 09:01:08 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:01:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnets, etc.
Message-ID: <BEA76C44.8F29%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

My first attempt to post this sonnet from the new William Baer anthology
seems to have failed, so here goes again.

 

                      Next Week, the Sciences

 

                                    By Gail White

 

 

The government?s Department of Abolition

of Standards took on literature this week.

Our goal is universal recognition

of writers, dead or living. We must seek

equality! Perhaps you thought Jane Austen

superior to Harriet Beecher Stowe.

She might have been in 19th century Boston,

but criticism marches on. We know

today that writers are created equal

(except for dead white European males)

and every poet?s worth his salt. The sequel?

There is no canon. Liberty prevails!

 

?Will everyone get published and get paid??

 
Watch for our guidelines on the bookstore trade.

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From grahamd at vbe.com  Wed May 11 16:16:42 2005
From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:16:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Africa, Saul Williams
In-Reply-To: <1115816597.1829.109.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <BEA7D25A.4A6C%grahamd@vbe.com>

on 5/11/05 8:03 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:

>> As for Saul Williams, I'd love to see some discussion of his work here.  I
>> find his performances mesmerizing, but have had trouble getting a handle on
>> his work on the page.
> 
> It's not meant for the page, any more than, say Beowulf was (B. made it
> to the page thankfully during the "civilizing" transition from OE to
> ME), but we've come to learn and appreciate the style thus.
> 
> I think it's the same thing with Saul Williams.  You have to recognize
> that he is speaking within a certain measure (which is untrue of most
> English verse regardless of poets' claims), and learn and appreciate it
> the same way.  It takes practice, but it works.  As I said in the blog
> entry, one has to hear Williams to really appreciate him, but in
> discussion of his work, putting him on the page is easiest.  I suppose
> best thing would be to use some audio essay format (which wouldn't be a
> bad idea, if I had the time).

Good points.  Still, Saul Williams does publish his work between two covers,
and I have some trouble appreciating it.  Just wondered what others thought.

I'm very interested in work that has its roots in the oral tradition, and
that comes at things from a non-iambic direction.  Saul Williams clearly
participates in such traditions, with sources in poets like Langston Hughes
and Kamau Brathwaite, not to mention various recording artists.  He strikes
me as a more substantial poet than many slam performers--in other words, not
*just* a good performer.  But I still have some trouble with his work, as
noted.

As a teacher, I always want to hear poems read aloud--whether it's Robert
Herrick or Taylor Mali.  I'm gradually figuring out some ways to teach poets
like Langston Hughes that do not depend primarily on New-Critical close
analysis.  But, I'm always interested in other angles. . . .

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at vbe.com
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed May 11 16:33:11 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:33:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1600 Saudis
In-Reply-To: <42826095.6020006@ix.netcom.com>
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com>
	<42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com>	<1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta>
	<42826095.6020006@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <42826C07.4030804@ix.netcom.com>

*/ The Assassinated Press /*

United Can Steal Pensions, Judge Rules:
United Has Outsourced Training To 1600 Saudis As Scab Flight Attendants, 
Mechanics And Pilots In Anticipation Of A Strike:
Rev. Moon Offers 1000 Followers And 100 Journalists From the Washington 
Times To Work For United Free If They Are Allowed To Sell Plastic 
Flowers And Images Of Moon In Coitus With Mary Magdelene On Flights:
Judge Fulfills Kleptocratic Destiny In Capitalist Jihad:

DUVE CRYPTOMETER
The Assassinated Press
May 11th, 2005
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/

CHICAGO ? A federal bankruptcy judge on Tuesday approved United 
Airlines' plan to terminate its employees' pension plans, clearing the 
way for the largest corporate-pension fraud in American history.

"I fulfilled my destiny to protect the sanctity of the rich and 
corrupt," commented Judge Eugenics "Wedgie" Wedoff surrounded by 4 body 
guards, off duty Chicago policemen. When asked if he had the contingent 
of bodyguards because he feared retribution from union members, Wedoff 
said, "No. I'm afraid of an early, unscheduled Rapture compliments of 
United Executives. Pact with the devil or no pact with the devil, if 
those cocksuckers on the United Board are willing to fuck over thousands 
of loyal employees while padding their filthy nests, they'd be willing 
to cut me and mine into chunks the size of buckeyfullerenes as way of 
terminating our agreement."

The ruling, which carries broad opportunity to defraud U.S. airlines by 
its officers and the promise of widespread third world status for their 
workers and U.S. taxpayers, shifts responsibility for United's four 
defined-benefit plans to the government's pension agency e.g. U.S. 
taxpayers.

That will save cash-stripped United an estimated nearly $645 million a 
year, part of the $2 billion in annual looting it says it needs to allow 
the lavish lifestyle the major corporate officers have become accustom 
to while it pretends to be lining up enough financing to emerge from 
Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

The cost will be life threatening to its employees, who stand to lose 
thousands of dollars annually off their pensions when they are assumed 
by the taxpayer through Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. Many will 
eventually face personal bankruptcy under new laws that reinstituted 
debtors prison and in some cases hanging and dismemberment for failure 
to pay debts.

However, the largest collective legal 'individuals' in the world, 
corporations, because they are the delicate flowers that exude the 
sanctified aroma of capital, are protected at every turn by a political 
and judicial vacuum tubes lined up in the ENIAC of the kleptocracy. When 
asked about this, United chief financial officer Jake Brace said, "Well. 
You can sure talk a lotta horseshit. But if you'r e askin' whether I 
give a rat's ass about the workers, the answer is fuck no. In a couple 
of years I'll be stripping some other fuckin' company and some Judge 
Wedoff will be taking a fuckin' facial up my crack."

The corporation, the government's pension insurer, initially opposed 
United's plan because their wasn't enough in it for them to skim. But it 
agreed to drop that resistance last month when they agreed there was 
enough baksheesh to go around when the pot was sweetened with $1.5 
billion in notes and convertible stock in a reorganized UAL Corp., 
United's holding company.

After pocketing billions, United executives underfunded pensions by an 
estimated $9.8 billion , of which the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. 
would guarantee only about $5 billion. "Thats a lot of money to steal. 
And the cocksuckers got away with it. Hat's off," commented Andy Fastow 
in protective custody in his Aspen mansion.

*America! Where Bigger Means Better*

The previous largest U.S. pension default was Bethlehem Steel's $3.6 
billion in underfunding in 2002.

Judge Eugene "Jack" Whatoff said the settlement, while disputed, does 
not violate any law or United's collective bargaining agreement, "it 
just ignores common decency and the facts e.g. how many overall assets 
have been held by United during recent proceedings. Its just too 
dangerous for me to acknowledge union counsels figures. However, 
corporate figures insure my standard of living. What happened to the 
days when unions made a few threats of their own?" He noted with a 
certain amount of glee that employees at companies such as United could 
end up with fewer or even no benefits because the power to loot and 
totally fuck up the company was already in the hands of those who have 
and that the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. was a corpse in a corn field 
for corporate bankruptcy lawyers challenging earlier agreements.

"The least bad for me and the corporate officers of the available 
choices here has got to be the one that keeps an airline functioning so 
more looting disguised as incompetence can take place. This baby ain't 
been sucked dry yet by no means now that we got our hands in the 
taxpayer's pocket. And dozens of other company's will now follow suit. 
If they let me live, it will be living well" Wedoff said.

United chief financial officer Jake Brace said the ruling is crucial for 
he and his associates to exploit the United bankruptcy phrase. "Now, 
there's billions more in the pot. I just ordered a gross of burlap sacks."

"It's a damn good outcome. It's a necessary outcome," he said. "This is 
any way you look at it a joyous day. It is an important step in looting 
and abandoning United and in making our airline appear successful and 
viable for our creditors."

United's effort to dump its pensions has been watched closely by the 
rest of the airline industry, where record fuel costs, the lowest fares 
since the early 1990s and stiff competition for example the result of 
fraud in other industries and deregulation both favored by CEOs have 
caused network carriers to lose billions of dollars. "So let the CEO 
dicks pay for it," commented an observer in court recently laid off by 
GM. Tuesday's ruling, following a step taken successfully by US Airways 
Group Inc. in February, clears the way for similar actions elsewhere. 
"Let the workers and the taxpayers take the responsibility. I got mine. 
And a big chunk of theirs for that matter. I'm not going to sweat this 
shit," said Brace.

United's biggest competitors would be under the most pressure to follow 
suit. American Airlines, the largest U.S. carrier and a unit of AMR 
Corp., has said it will loot its pension plans but is concerned about 
No. 2 United getting preferential treatment with the elimination of its 
pensions.

No. 3 Delta Air Lines Inc., which has said it is in danger of being 
forced to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, is looking at $3.1 billion in 
pension payments it could loot over the next three years.

In bankruptcy court in Chicago on Tuesday, an overflow crowd of current 
and former United workers showed up, with more than 100 packing the 
courtroom and dozens more listening to piped-in proceedings in a 
separate courtroom.

Unions representing United's flight attendants, mechanics and ramp 
workers have expressed their anger at both the airline and the 
government's pension insurer for agreeing to drop its opposition to 
United's plan last month in exchange for putting their pension money in 
play.

In exchange for that settlement, the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. 
would get as much as $1.5 billion in notes and convertible stock in a 
reorganized UAL Corp., United's holding company. Exposed, the money 
would be up for grabs.

Attorney Jeffrey Cohen said the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., which 
might have been unable to halt United's plan in any case, made the 
agreement as "a matter of best offer." Disputing the flight attendants' 
contention that the deal violated its mission, he said the agency 
concluded that cutting a deal was not in the best interest of those with 
pensions at United and other companies but also not a good deal for 
taxpayers who fund the pension insurer. "You didn't expect the airline 
to take any fiduciary responsibility. I mean. Where the fuck you from 
former Soviet Georgia?

In addition, he said, "We think it helps clear a path to the exit door 
and to board the first plane (not United) to Bolivia where extradition 
will be difficult if not impossible" when United to leaves the company 
in bankruptcy.

Lawyers for United's unions spoke ardently earlier Tuesday against the 
proposal.

Robert Clayman, an attorney for the Association of Flight Attendants, 
drew loud applause and cheers from employee spectators in both the 
courtroom and auxiliary court with an emotional appeal to preserve the 
pensions and workers' secure retirements.

"Without equity there is no justice," he said.

Jack Carriglio, an attorney for retired United pilots, said the airline 
should be ashamed of the agreement and warned of the consequences among 
angry employees.

"A strike is a real prospect if that agreement is approved," he said. 
"Also, this will have a grave impact on United employees' morale."

Other unions also have raised the possibility of striking if United 
terminates the pensions and has its labor contracts overhauled.

*More Flight Training For Saudis*

"Ah, let the assholes strike," said the airlines chief counsel, Braden 
Archer Wright. "We've already trained 1600 Saudis as flight attendants, 
mechanics and pilots and we book our flights through Iran to cut costs. 
Let me assure the public. We got the situation covered."



<http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/index.html>




>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed May 11 17:02:00 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:02:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
References: <143.44b9981a.2fb2a8d1@aol.com>
	<fde50348050511074140064f2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c5566c$ad00e1a0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Invention of form...is that not also an irrepressible motive to invention?
>
> I thought the English copied the sonnet from the Italian mode.
> However, I don't see why Americans should follow a European model. The
> original settlers went to America to be different in many ways so why
> shouldn't modern day Americans continue in that tradition. It seems a
> good one to me.
>
> Berrigan said that you walk with Shakespeare when you write a
> (shakespearean) sonnet. I don't buy it - why on earth would you want
> to commune with a dead white (european) male? Isn't that something
> akin to necrophilia? Even my nose turns up at that one and sometimes I
> feel as if I'm pretty much chained to that particular smell.
>
> Roger.

Of course, you walk with Shakespeare when you write a sonnet--and, whether 
you know it or not, with Wordsworth, Keats, Yeats, Hardy, Frost, Petrarch, 
etc., etc.  It's not communing with the dead, but empathizing with them. 
Same way you'd look with Galileo every time you looked through a telescope, 
or I once sailed with Columbus when a replica of the Nina, I think it was, 
visited my town and I got on it.  It didn't actually sail, but it moved on 
ocea waters, which was close enough.

Actually, to write ANY poem, you walk with Shakespeare--and Chaucer and 
Sappho.  You can't avoid walking more closely with many other poets when you 
write a poem, even if you invent the form you're working in, and use new 
techniques, and make up words.

Of course, you most walk with other poets when you use a form they've all 
used.  That's the whole point of using a form, I feel--to be able to get 
huge connotative value for free.  Just write something approximating the 
5/7/5 syllable form of traditional haiku in English and you automatically 
get practically a world.  The one advantage writing free verse has on 
writing formal verse is that you DON"T get anything for free, so you're 
forced to work for it, which means you are more likely to get what you're 
after in a new way than you would have using a traditional form.

I'm starting to go off on twenty different tangents, so I had better stop 
here.

--Bob G.

Sounds like you don't like history much, Roger. 




From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 11 17:21:07 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:21:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
References: <BEA71E18.8F0A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
	<1115838436.1829.121.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <004901c5566f$5b62b000$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

R. S. Gwynn is one of the godfathers of this list, a pretty smart guy most 
of the time, and a poet worth reading.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart


> On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 02:27 -0500, Paul Lake wrote:
>> On 5/10/05 9:06 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:
>>
>>         Any writer on the American sonnet who does not mention Wylie
>>         and Millay is, if not beneath, at least somewhat lower
>>         than . . .contempt.  No one . . . I repeat, no one (well,
>>         Shakespeare excepted), did better by the form than Millay.
>>          And Robinson (without slighting Frost) has at least a dozen
>>         that are among the stars.
>>
>>
>> And as you know, Sam, if members of this list want to see the modern
>> sonnet in all its glory (though Millay and Robinson are too early to
>> be included), they can see the recently released Sonnets: 150
>> Contemporary Sonnets edited by William Baer and published by
>> Evansville University Press.  The book even has a group of sonnets by
>> one R. S. Gwynn.
>
> Umm.  Dana Gioia, X.J. Kennedy, Anthony Hecht, Charles Martin, A.E.
> Stallings, Mona Van Duyn, Richard Wilbur, Seamus Heaney?  Hells yeah.
> That's what I call stacking the deck.  What am I waiting for?  Off to
> Amazon to cop that.
>
> BTW, not familiar with R.S. Gwynn yet, but in that sort of company, I
> don't suspect it will be long before I am.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 11 17:22:47 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:22:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Africa, Saul Williams
References: <BEA7D25A.4A6C%grahamd@vbe.com>
Message-ID: <005401c5566f$96f367e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

>From a political blog, some very good stuff on oral vs written tradition.

http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2005/05/the_epistemolog.html


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at vbe.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 4:16 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Africa, Saul Williams


> on 5/11/05 8:03 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:
>
>>> As for Saul Williams, I'd love to see some discussion of his work here. 
>>> I
>>> find his performances mesmerizing, but have had trouble getting a handle 
>>> on
>>> his work on the page.
>>
>> It's not meant for the page, any more than, say Beowulf was (B. made it
>> to the page thankfully during the "civilizing" transition from OE to
>> ME), but we've come to learn and appreciate the style thus.
>>
>> I think it's the same thing with Saul Williams.  You have to recognize
>> that he is speaking within a certain measure (which is untrue of most
>> English verse regardless of poets' claims), and learn and appreciate it
>> the same way.  It takes practice, but it works.  As I said in the blog
>> entry, one has to hear Williams to really appreciate him, but in
>> discussion of his work, putting him on the page is easiest.  I suppose
>> best thing would be to use some audio essay format (which wouldn't be a
>> bad idea, if I had the time).
>
> Good points.  Still, Saul Williams does publish his work between two 
> covers,
> and I have some trouble appreciating it.  Just wondered what others 
> thought.
>
> I'm very interested in work that has its roots in the oral tradition, and
> that comes at things from a non-iambic direction.  Saul Williams clearly
> participates in such traditions, with sources in poets like Langston 
> Hughes
> and Kamau Brathwaite, not to mention various recording artists.  He 
> strikes
> me as a more substantial poet than many slam performers--in other words, 
> not
> *just* a good performer.  But I still have some trouble with his work, as
> noted.
>
> As a teacher, I always want to hear poems read aloud--whether it's Robert
> Herrick or Taylor Mali.  I'm gradually figuring out some ways to teach 
> poets
> like Langston Hughes that do not depend primarily on New-Critical close
> analysis.  But, I'm always interested in other angles. . . .
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at vbe.com
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 18:03:22 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:03:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <88.26911a13.2fb3db2a@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/11/2005 4:23:43 PM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org 
writes: 
> R. S. Gwynn is one of the godfathers of this list, a pretty smart guy most 
> of the time, and a poet worth reading.
> 
> 
Check's in the mail, Tad.
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From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu  Wed May 11 18:06:18 2005
From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:06:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <1e0.3c0ffb6c.2fb364ba@cs.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050511165825.01afe6b8@cyrus.undsmhs.net>

As one who also reads EA Robinson, to fill in the blanks for Sam Gwynn's 
passing reference,

		Reuben Bright

Because he was a butcher and thereby
Did earn an honest living (and did right),
I would not have you think that Reuben Bright
Was any more a brute than you or I;
For when they told him that his wife must die,
He stared at them, and shook with grief and fright,
And cried like a great baby half that night,
And made the women cry to see him cry.

And after she was dead, and he had paid
The singers and the sexton and the rest,
He packed a lot of things that she had made,
Most mournfully away in an old chest
Of hers, and put some chopped-up cedar boughs
In with them, and tore down the slaughterhouse.

	Edwin Arlington Robinson



Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed May 11 18:16:02 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:16:02 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
References: <88.26911a13.2fb3db2a@cs.com>
Message-ID: <01aa01c55677$047bdb10$ead73152@ANNY>

Never met anybody like R.S. Gwynn - !
'nother check (tel. pc. food doors bike ...)?

cheers, Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:03 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart


  In a message dated 5/11/2005 4:23:43 PM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: 

    R. S. Gwynn is one of the godfathers of this list, a pretty smart guy most 
    of the time, and a poet worth reading.



  Check's in the mail, Tad. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
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  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 18:42:22 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:42:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <11.45210161.2fb3e44e@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/11/2005 5:08:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu writes: 
> As one who also reads EA Robinson, to fill in the blanks for Sam Gwynn's 
> passing reference,
> 
>         Reuben Bright
> 
> Because he was a butcher and thereby
> Did earn an honest living (and did right),
> I would not have you think that Reuben Bright
> Was any more a brute than you or I;
> For when they told him that his wife must die,
> He stared at them, and shook with grief and fright,
> And cried like a great baby half that night,
> And made the women cry to see him cry.
> 
> And after she was dead, and he had paid
> The singers and the sexton and the rest,
> He packed a lot of things that she had made,
> Most mournfully away in an old chest
> Of hers, and put some chopped-up cedar boughs
> In with them, and tore down the slaughterhouse.
> 
>     Edwin Arlington Robinson
> 
Thanks!  I'm away from my collected Robinson.

Interestingly, when this poem was first published there was an error in the 
last line:

"In with them, and tore down to the slaughterhouse."
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 18:43:10 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:43:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <c.44d3490a.2fb3e47e@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/11/2005 5:18:06 PM Central Daylight Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: 
> Never met anybody like R.S. Gwynn - !
>  'nother check (tel. pc. food doors bike ...)?
>   
>  cheers, Anny
> 
Checks in the mail, Anny.
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 11 19:07:47 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:07:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
References: <88.26911a13.2fb3db2a@cs.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c5567e$42680af0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

That's OK, I'll settle for a cushy, tenure-track sinecure.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 6:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart


  In a message dated 5/11/2005 4:23:43 PM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: 

    R. S. Gwynn is one of the godfathers of this list, a pretty smart guy most 
    of the time, and a poet worth reading.



  Check's in the mail, Tad. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 11 19:20:53 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:20:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <8e.2725b1c6.2fb3ed55@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/11/2005 6:11:38 PM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org 
writes: 
> That's OK, I'll settle for a cushy, tenure-track sinecure.
> 
If you'd just graded all the papers I did, you'd delete "cushy."
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 11 19:32:46 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:32:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
References: <8e.2725b1c6.2fb3ed55@cs.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c55681$bfc3b050$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

That's my point -- I just want the cush, not the papers.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 7:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart


  In a message dated 5/11/2005 6:11:38 PM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: 

    That's OK, I'll settle for a cushy, tenure-track sinecure.


  If you'd just graded all the papers I did, you'd delete "cushy." 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed May 11 22:18:07 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 03:18:07 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
References: <88.26911a13.2fb3db2a@cs.com>
	<002f01c5567e$42680af0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <0da901c55698$d602e9a0$cb309b51@Robin>

<<
That's OK, I'll settle for a cushy, tenure-track sinecure.

Tad Richards
>>

MFA or Real Academe?

Brodie
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed May 11 22:29:50 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:29:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <1f3.98f3a8d.2fb4199e@aol.com>

sonnet by a different Robinson...

Robinson Jeffers (1887-1962)


RETURN

A little too abstract, a little too wise,
It is time for us to kiss the earth again.
It is time to let the leaves rain from the skies,
Let the rich life run to the roots again.
I will go down to the lovely Sur rivers
And dip my arms in them up to the shoulders.
I will find my accounting where the alder leaf quivers
In the ocean wind over the river boulders.
I will touch things and things and no more thoughts
That breed like mouthless May-flies darkening the sky.
The insect clouds that blind our passionate hawks
So that they cannot strike, hardly can fly.
Things are the hawk's food and noble is the mountain, 
    Oh noble 
Pico Blanco, steep sea-wave of marble.
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 11 23:14:21 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:14:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
References: <88.26911a13.2fb3db2a@cs.com><002f01c5567e$42680af0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<0da901c55698$d602e9a0$cb309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <001501c556a0$b45f7cc0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

As long as it's cushy...


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robin Hamilton 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart


  <<
  That's OK, I'll settle for a cushy, tenure-track sinecure.

  Tad Richards
  >>

  MFA or Real Academe?

  Brodie


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 11 23:24:52 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:24:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
References: <88.26911a13.2fb3db2a@cs.com><002f01c5567e$42680af0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><0da901c55698$d602e9a0$cb309b51@Robin>
	<001501c556a0$b45f7cc0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <001801c556a2$2cb8b3c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

OK, a sonnet by the mole:

DESERTIONS
 
These are not the people I meant to write about.
Already they've betrayed the poem, as they've betrayed each other,
She with those swarthy lazzaroni, he with the tenor
Who could have coaxed tears with an aria in the third act,
But he pushed it too far, with all those quavers, mordents, 
Pralltrillers. Did they plan this? What were they after?
How much sex does she want? I would have given it to her,
But after the overture, and it would have been my dance.
 
Next time they sign in: the vaudeville comics, the succubus,
The gamine with the Percherons who does the union organizing,
The costume designers, the mustachioed muscle men,
the lip synch guy, the Bangkok pussy girls.
>From here on out, everyone has to audition.
They'll pick up what I tell them, and when.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: The Old Mole 
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart


As long as it's cushy...


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robin Hamilton 
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart


<<
That's OK, I'll settle for a cushy, tenure-track sinecure.

Tad Richards
>>

MFA or Real Academe?

Brodie



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From aburke at iinet.net.au  Thu May 12 00:17:14 2005
From: aburke at iinet.net.au (Andrew Burke)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:17:14 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
References: <88.26911a13.2fb3db2a@cs.com><002f01c5567e$42680af0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><0da901c55698$d602e9a0$cb309b51@Robin><001501c556a0$b45f7cc0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<001801c556a2$2cb8b3c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <01a601c556a9$7ab87d60$72f13bcb@andrewbu>

A penny for the Old Mole. 

Thanks.

Andrew


  OK, a sonnet by the mole:

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 12 08:53:38 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:53:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <1fc.1733d80.2fb4abd2@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/11/2005 9:30:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> sonnet by a different Robinson...
> 
> Robinson Jeffers (1887-1962)
> 
> 
He wrote quite a few of them, strangely enough, and they still sound like 
Jeffers poems.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 12 09:29:02 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:29:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <ac.731ac0e3.2fb4b41e@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/12/2005 8:54:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:
and they still sound like Jeffers poems. 
Which is good, I think. 

I'm very fond of the sonnet
form. I think the fact that it
carries with it such an 
illustrious literary history 
of fine poems is something 
that recommend it. As a form
it offers some flexibility
to vary the pattern of the
rime, if not the length.
By having no need for
repetitions/refrain, it gives
the writer an extra measure
of freedom as well. It's short 
enough to convey "poemness," 
by which I mean the essence
of what a poem is, for me,
involves concision and 
brevity of expression; and yet 
it has enough lines/room to 
allow a cosmos of associations
to dwell within its ambit.
(Multum in parvo.)
Finnegan
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 12 09:37:00 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:37:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <29.731759c8.2fb4b5fc@cs.com>

Sonnet 

The orgasm completely 
Takes the woman out of her 
Self in a wave of ecstasy 
That spreads through all of her body ? 
Her nervous, vascular and muscular 
Systems participate in the act. 
The muscles of the pelvis contract 
And discharge a plug of mucus from the cervix 
While the muscular sucking motions of the cervix 
Facilitate the incoming of the semen. 
At the same time the constrictions of the pelvic 
Muscles prevent the loss of semen. The discharge 
Makes the acid vaginal lubricant 
Alkaline, so as not to destroy the spermatozoa. 


Tom Clark 
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Thu May 12 10:49:35 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:49:35 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <42826478.4040603@ix.netcom.com>
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com> <42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com>
	<1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta> <42826478.4040603@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1115909375.1829.144.camel@malatesta>

On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 16:00 -0400, Alphaville wrote:
> Uche Ogbuji. Could you send us some of your poems? CP

Very kind of you to ask.  This new request finally got me off my seat.
This morning I posted three pieces:

http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/caramusis/brown_dwarf.xml
http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/caramusis/11_february_1996.xml
http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/caramusis/mantis.xml

I plan to carefully select and occasionally post from the large body of
work I have sitting in my folders.  I'll announce all postings on Copia,
under the "poetry" topic:

http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry

If anyone has any comments (I'm mostly open to constructive
criticism :-) ), you can do so here:

http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_

Thanks.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu May 12 11:11:57 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:11:57 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <14343541.1115910717800.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

And, of course, from Mark Jarman's "Unholy Sonnets":

Unholy Sonnet


Breath like a house fly batters the shut mouth.
The dream begins, turns over, and goes flat.
The virus cleans the attic and heads south.
Somebody asks, "What did you mean by that?"
But nobody says, "Nothing," in response.
The body turns a last cell into cancer.
The ghost abandons all of his old haunts.
Silence becomes the question and the answer.
And then--banal epiphany--and then,
Time kick starts and the deaf brain hears a voice.
The eyes like orphans find the world again.
Day washes down the city streets with noise.
And oxygen repaints the blood bright red.
How good it is to come back from the dead!


Unholy Sonnet


Think of the harsh attire that God put on,
Improved with vitamins and vaccinations,
Anointed, toned, massaged with gleaming lotions,
Heart-smart and fiber-dieted and trim:
A body more like ours, aerobic, clean,
Groomed properly, with proper dental care,
Modern and made to last, at least in theory,
More than a stingy three score years and ten.
Now there's a corpse to translate into heaven.
The truth is no one wants to leave the world,
Unless nothing has worked and all has broken
Down into pain. Then, even God would suffer
Less with carbon monoxide in a can,
Breathed in the comfort of a private van.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes:  http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 12 11:20:55 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:20:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] sonnet site-
Message-ID: <9d.5fbda61a.2fb4ce57@aol.com>

http://www.sonnets.org/
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu May 12 11:29:47 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:29:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <29.731759c8.2fb4b5fc@cs.com>
References: <29.731759c8.2fb4b5fc@cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505121129210.7366@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

What in the hell...?

On Thu, 12 May 2005 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> Sonnet
>
> The orgasm completely
> Takes the woman out of her
> Self in a wave of ecstasy
> That spreads through all of her body ???
> Her nervous, vascular and muscular
> Systems participate in the act.
> The muscles of the pelvis contract
> And discharge a plug of mucus from the cervix
> While the muscular sucking motions of the cervix
> Facilitate the incoming of the semen.
> At the same time the constrictions of the pelvic
> Muscles prevent the loss of semen. The discharge
> Makes the acid vaginal lubricant
> Alkaline, so as not to destroy the spermatozoa.
>
>
> Tom Clark
>

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_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu May 12 11:30:46 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:30:46 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet
References: <14343541.1115910717800.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <0f8701c55707$91d9ba00$cb309b51@Robin>

SONNET FOR EMMA
 

Faith be given to no faithless faces, 
Trust warrants loyalty but love is the other,
Death and despair may carry us further -
But your shaken hair still spreads its graces.

The passport of love will lighten the traces
Better than ever a surrogate brother
Or even compassion from a mother
To wipe the louche tears from our faces.

I yawn and bless you in this cold space
Chilled by the doom of words that spill
Our blood  - lives neatly spaced apart.                     

Shadows in the empty grate make up your face
Where a smile gleams centred and still -
You are the haunt of all my art.

 

 

RWH   13/7/98


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 12 11:38:00 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:38:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] the darker side of sonnetry
Message-ID: <8d.26e91e38.2fb4d258@aol.com>

The sonnet could also be poetry's elephant graveyard...

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Summaries/V113I6P58-1.htm
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 12 12:15:00 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:15:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
Message-ID: <12a.5d33380f.2fb4db04@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/12/2005 10:31:56 AM Central Daylight Time, 
jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes: 
> 
> What in the hell...?
> 
> On Thu, 12 May 2005 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> 
> >Sonnet
> >
> >The orgasm completely
> >Takes the woman out of her
> >Self in a wave of ecstasy
> >That spreads through all of her body ???
> >Her nervous, vascular and muscular
> >Systems participate in the act.
> >The muscles of the pelvis contract
> >And discharge a plug of mucus from the cervix
> >While the muscular sucking motions of the cervix
> >Facilitate the incoming of the semen.
> >At the same time the constrictions of the pelvic
> >Muscles prevent the loss of semen. The discharge
> >Makes the acid vaginal lubricant
> >Alkaline, so as not to destroy the spermatozoa.
> >
> >
> >Tom Clark
> >
> 
> 
It's been around for a long time.  First saw it in the Mark Strand anthology 
from the early 70s.
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Thu May 12 12:29:49 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:29:49 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] sonnet site-
In-Reply-To: <9d.5fbda61a.2fb4ce57@aol.com>
References: <9d.5fbda61a.2fb4ce57@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1115915390.1829.152.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 11:20 -0400, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> http://www.sonnets.org/ 

See also The Sonneteer:

http://sonneteer.xmlshoestring.com/sonneteer/index.xml

With which I'm not affiliated with, but which works on technology I
develop in my day job.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu May 12 12:59:37 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:59:37 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: [silence] Mac Low question
Message-ID: <ECOWS01Mu1u0oQ9a2Dm0007adf6@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On
Behalf Of mIEKAL aND
Sent: 12 May 2005 14:11
To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Fwd: [silence] Mac Low question

A question for all you Mac Low heads, reply directly to the Frolicsome
Composer from Hell.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Samuel the Frolicsome Composer from Hell <sqv at xs4all.nl>
> Date: May 12, 2005 8:08:38 AM CDT
> To: silence at list.mail.virginia.edu
> Subject: [silence] Mac Low question
>
>
> Goodday,
>
> I hope this is a good place for a question about Jackson Mac Low -
>
> Since this summer I've been engaged with a poetry foundation in 
> Amsterdam called Perdu. At Perdu, we are interested in presenting some 
> of the multi-reader works of Jackson Mac Low with poets, actors & 
> musicians. Through Usenet, I learnt about the piece Thanks on Ubuweb, 
> and the description of the piece there (as well as the sound clip) 
> intrigued me; I'd love to find the instructions he gave, which I 
> suppose must be much more extensive than the brief note on Ubuweb. 
> Problem is that this work is almost impossible to get hold of in 
> Amsterdam.
>
> (through the hidden conspiracy of international experimental music I 
> did manage to get the text of Thanks II, the music piece - the 
> instructions there are quite detailed, a bit like Christian Wolff's 
> Prose collection)
>
> Do any of you perhaps have an idea of how or where I might get the 
> original instructions for Thanks? Would appreciate it!
>
> Cheers
> Samuel Vriezen
>
> --
> http://composers21.com/compdocs/vriezens.htm
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~sqv/vriezen_mp3.html
>
>
>





From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 12 14:03:33 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:03:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com>
	<42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com><1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta>
	<42826478.4040603@ix.netcom.com>
	<1115909375.1829.144.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <005401c5571c$edfbf360$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Uche -- this link -- http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_

Doesn't seem to work.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives


> On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 16:00 -0400, Alphaville wrote:
>> Uche Ogbuji. Could you send us some of your poems? CP
>
> Very kind of you to ask.  This new request finally got me off my seat.
> This morning I posted three pieces:
>
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/caramusis/brown_dwarf.xml
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/caramusis/11_february_1996.xml
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/caramusis/mantis.xml
>
> I plan to carefully select and occasionally post from the large body of
> work I have sitting in my folders.  I'll announce all postings on Copia,
> under the "poetry" topic:
>
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry
>
> If anyone has any comments (I'm mostly open to constructive
> criticism :-) ), you can do so here:
>
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu May 12 08:06:03 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 07:06:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link
Message-ID: <BEA8B0DB.8F5A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Here's a link to Amazon for the anthology of contemporary sonnets I
mentioned a while back. Now I WILL take my check, thank you very much.



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0930982592/qid=1115924656/sr=1
-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-7257416-1552962?v=glance&s=books

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu May 12 15:12:09 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 15:12:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Sonnet: You can't drive stake thru its heart
In-Reply-To: <12a.5d33380f.2fb4db04@cs.com>
References: <12a.5d33380f.2fb4db04@cs.com>
Message-ID: <572624a912058145691dcae185a2ca19@earthlink.net>

Not to mention . . .


Today's Special

The Sonnet Project
http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May 12 15:21:37 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:21:37 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link
References: <BEA8B0DB.8F5A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <003501c55727$d19c4e30$21d93052@ANNY>


Hey there is an R.S.Gwynn on the list, right after Dana Gioia!

:-)

From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link


> Here's a link to Amazon for the anthology of contemporary sonnets I
> mentioned a while back. Now I WILL take my check, thank you very much.
>
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0930982592/qid=1115924656/sr=1
> -1/ref=sr_1_1/102-7257416-1552962?v=glance&s=books
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May 12 15:33:12 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:33:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] nothing to do with sonnets
Message-ID: <004801c55729$6fe436b0$21d93052@ANNY>

I'm afraid, but worth discovering:

http://www.leevilehto.net/google/google.asp

or you can get there the other way round:
http://www.leevilehto.net/google/

Make sure you reach the Anthology
http://www.leevilehto.net/google/anthology.asp

where I chose a pOm by Karri Kokko, no way I can understand it in Finnish, but this is nice:
http://www.leevilehto.net/google/anthology.asp?poem=kokko

He (Karri Kokko) writes: "The original idea behind 'On runo' was to compose a text by simply asking Google what 'is a poem.' As it happened, due to the peculiarities of the Finnish language, the engine gave also answers to questions like where, when, who and why 'is a poem.' Then again, some of the 'answers' don't answer to a 'question' at all. 'They' are just 'there.' Now, ain't 'that' something." 
Comment by Leevi Lehto

and with my new signature with the permission of M.J. Walker, thanks Martin,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
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From mandolin at mac.com  Thu May 12 16:00:50 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:00:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
Message-ID: <8199094.1115928050297.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Unrequited


I had a crush on Liz because one night
She danced real slow with me and every beat,
Since she was lame, her hip slipped tight
Across my hard-on -- Christ, but it was sweet!
And Gina, who broke every hippie's heart,
Her famous shorts she'd cut so short the hair
Would glisten while she sat, those thighs apart
To show she knew you knew, and didn't care --
Truth is, I was in love with everyone,
But most of all with Ronnie -- when he'd sing
His "Stranger Things" I'd almost come undone
To hear him cry out "Mikey, do that thing!"
And everything was in my mandolin,
More than he wanted of all I'd ever been.



-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 12 17:05:44 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:05:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link
Message-ID: <25.5f68f508.2fb51f28@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/12/2005 2:22:27 PM Central Daylight Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: 
> 
> Hey there is an R.S.Gwynn on the list, right after Dana Gioia!
Alphabetically, of course.
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu May 12 18:40:04 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:40:04 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
Message-ID: <200505122117.j4CLHsU4190536@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

Nice!

----------
>From: Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
>Date: Thu, May 12, 2005, 12:00 PM
>

> Unrequited
>
>
> I had a crush on Liz because one night
> She danced real slow with me and every beat,
> Since she was lame, her hip slipped tight
> Across my hard-on -- Christ, but it was sweet!
> And Gina, who broke every hippie's heart,
> Her famous shorts she'd cut so short the hair
> Would glisten while she sat, those thighs apart
> To show she knew you knew, and didn't care --
> Truth is, I was in love with everyone,
> But most of all with Ronnie -- when he'd sing
> His "Stranger Things" I'd almost come undone
> To hear him cry out "Mikey, do that thing!"
> And everything was in my mandolin,
> More than he wanted of all I'd ever been.
>
>
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 12 17:20:06 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:20:06 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] the darker side of sonnetry
Message-ID: <c0.28505aa4.2fb52286@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/12/2005 10:39:51 AM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> The sonnet could also be poetry's elephant graveyard...
>   
>  http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Summaries/V113I6P58-1.htm
> 
There are some things I draw the line at, and giving money to Commentary is 
one of them.  What does it say (for free)?
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 12 17:27:24 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:27:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
Message-ID: <19e.335fffb5.2fb5243c@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/12/2005 4:20:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: 
> 
> Nice!
Ditto.
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 12 18:06:54 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:06:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link
References: <25.5f68f508.2fb51f28@cs.com>
Message-ID: <002601c5573e$ec1efd90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Then that would mean no Graham.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link


  In a message dated 5/12/2005 2:22:27 PM Central Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: 


    Hey there is an R.S.Gwynn on the list, right after Dana Gioia!

  Alphabetically, of course. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May 12 18:24:29 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:24:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology Link
In-Reply-To: <002601c5573e$ec1efd90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BEA941CD.11F32%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/12/05 5:06 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

Then that would mean no Graham.
 
Not this Graham, alas.  I've written my share of sonnets, as it happens,
just not any good ones in about 30 years of trying.  It's one of those forms
that defeats me.   Another is the sestina, but in that, at least, I have
lots of good company:  very few sestinas by *any* poets that I can make it
through without snoozing.

I'm fond of the pantoum, and have published some.  But mostly I write in
conventional forms as exercise in my journal, or for class examples, etc.

I greatly admire good sonneteers.  Was disappointed, incidentally, that Sam
Gwynn's "Body Bags" sequence isn't in the new anthology.  So everyone go out
& get *No Word of Farewell* & read it.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu May 12 18:35:06 2005
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 15:35:06 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
In-Reply-To: <200505122117.j4CLHsU4190536@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <0a8a01c55742$e7713020$17321c40@Emily>

What Chris said!  I like this one, Mike.

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Chris
Stroffolino 
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 3:40 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] another sonnet

Nice!


> Unrequited




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 12 19:13:58 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:13:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link
References: <25.5f68f508.2fb51f28@cs.com>
	<002601c5573e$ec1efd90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <00e701c55748$473f74d0$a9b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

  Hey there is an R.S.Gwynn on the list, right after Dana Gioia!

Alphabetically, of course. 

  Then that would mean no Graham.

  No Grumman, either.  What gives?  (One of my poems at Anny's website is a sonnet I expected some acerbic responses about from the crew here.  Much of my one full-length published book is about my struggle to write it.  I have no idea whether it's any good or not.)

  --Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 12 19:36:58 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:36:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] the darker side of sonnetry
Message-ID: <1a0.33b5cff7.2fb5429a@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/12/2005 5:20:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> 
> There are some things I draw the line at, and giving money to Commentary is 
> one of them.  What does it say (for free)? 
> 
> 

I didn't pay either...so I can't say. The snip is what I 
was interested in. The sonnet as a place where great
poets go to die (Lowell, Hill...). 
Finnegan
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 12 20:03:48 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:03:48 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology Link
Message-ID: <1da.3c0bf5a5.2fb548e4@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/12/2005 5:30:27 PM Central Daylight Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> I greatly admire good sonneteers.  Was disappointed, incidentally, that Sam 
> Gwynn's "Body Bags" sequence isn't in the new anthology.  So everyone go out &
> get *No Word of Farewell* &read it.
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham

Check's in the mail, David.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 12 20:04:53 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:04:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
Message-ID: <6b.452ea61e.2fb54925@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/12/2005 5:27:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> >> Nice!
> Ditto. 
> 

Ditto, too (if that's not too redundant)...it's funny, I'm more inclined to 
that
expression "ditto" after hearing Whitman use it so freely. My only recent 
association with the word relates to that self-congratulatory druggy 
Rush Limbaugh and his call-in myrmidons from the right.
Finnegan 
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 12 20:08:39 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:08:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
Message-ID: <158.50b0383f.2fb54a07@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/12/2005 7:05:40 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> Ditto, too (if that's not too redundant)...it's funny, I'm more inclined to 
> that
> expression "ditto" after hearing Whitman use it so freely. My only recent 
> association with the word relates to that self-congratulatory druggy 
> Rush Limbaugh and his call-in myrmidons from the right.
> Finnegan 
> 
That's "mega-dittos," James.
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu May 12 21:15:35 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:15:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
In-Reply-To: <200505122117.j4CLHsU4190536@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200505122117.j4CLHsU4190536@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505122115230.4467@shell2.oit.umass.edu>

I'll second that.

On Thu, 12 May 2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote:

> Nice!
>
> ----------
> >From: Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
> >Date: Thu, May 12, 2005, 12:00 PM
> >
>
> > Unrequited
> >
> >
> > I had a crush on Liz because one night
> > She danced real slow with me and every beat,
> > Since she was lame, her hip slipped tight
> > Across my hard-on -- Christ, but it was sweet!
> > And Gina, who broke every hippie's heart,
> > Her famous shorts she'd cut so short the hair
> > Would glisten while she sat, those thighs apart
> > To show she knew you knew, and didn't care --
> > Truth is, I was in love with everyone,
> > But most of all with Ronnie -- when he'd sing
> > His "Stranger Things" I'd almost come undone
> > To hear him cry out "Mikey, do that thing!"
> > And everything was in my mandolin,
> > More than he wanted of all I'd ever been.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From mandolin at mac.com  Thu May 12 22:54:30 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:54:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505122115230.4467@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
References: <200505122117.j4CLHsU4190536@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505122115230.4467@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <10658634.1115952870780.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Well, geez -- thanks to all. 

Net access is dead at home, and I'm at a bar with a wifi netowrk, so no brain. But really, thanks.
 
On Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 09:16PM, Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu> wrote:

>I'll second that.
>
>On Thu, 12 May 2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote:
>
>> Nice!
>>
>> ----------
>> >From: Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
>> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >Subject: [New-Poetry] another sonnet
>> >Date: Thu, May 12, 2005, 12:00 PM
>> >
>>
>> > Unrequited
>> >
>> >
>> > I had a crush on Liz because one night
>> > She danced real slow with me and every beat,
>> > Since she was lame, her hip slipped tight
>> > Across my hard-on -- Christ, but it was sweet!
>> > And Gina, who broke every hippie's heart,
>> > Her famous shorts she'd cut so short the hair
>> > Would glisten while she sat, those thighs apart
>> > To show she knew you knew, and didn't care --
>> > Truth is, I was in love with everyone,
>> > But most of all with Ronnie -- when he'd sing
>> > His "Stranger Things" I'd almost come undone
>> > To hear him cry out "Mikey, do that thing!"
>> > And everything was in my mandolin,
>> > More than he wanted of all I'd ever been.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----
>> > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>> > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 12 23:36:46 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:36:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology Link
References: <1da.3c0bf5a5.2fb548e4@cs.com>
Message-ID: <007001c5576c$ff36e7c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Sam's gonna go broke.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology Link


  In a message dated 5/12/2005 5:30:27 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 


    I greatly admire good sonneteers.  Was disappointed, incidentally, that Sam Gwynn's "Body Bags" sequence isn't in the new anthology.  So everyone go out &get *No Word of Farewell* &read it.

    ====================================================
    David Graham


  Check's in the mail, David. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 12 23:50:40 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:50:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology Link
Message-ID: <d6.2679d37c.2fb57e10@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/12/2005 10:37:19 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tad at opus40.org writes: 
> 
> Sam's gonna go broke.
>   
>   
>  Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> 
Small checks, Tad.  But appreciative all the same.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May 13 05:18:27 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:18:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] quotation
Message-ID: <002601c5579c$b92c2580$bfde3052@ANNY>

To be perfect she lacked only a defect

Karl Kraus


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Fri May 13 07:27:39 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 05:27:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <005401c5571c$edfbf360$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com> <42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com>
	<1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta> <42826478.4040603@ix.netcom.com>
	<1115909375.1829.144.camel@malatesta>
	<005401c5571c$edfbf360$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1115983659.1829.157.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 14:03 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> Uche -- this link -- http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_
> 
> Doesn't seem to work.

Strange.  I just tried it now and it looks OK.  What were you getting?
404 Not Found?

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From tad at opus40.org  Fri May 13 08:17:06 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:17:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com>
	<42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com><1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta>
	<42826478.4040603@ix.netcom.com><1115909375.1829.144.camel@malatesta><005401c5571c$edfbf360$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1115983659.1829.157.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <00fd01c557b5$b1471550$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>


The page you are looking for is not available

Somehow I cannot find the page you want. Go Back to Copia?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives


> On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 14:03 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
>> Uche -- this link -- http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_
>>
>> Doesn't seem to work.
>
> Strange.  I just tried it now and it looks OK.  What were you getting?
> 404 Not Found?
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May 13 12:09:16 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:09:16 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com><42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com><1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta><42826478.4040603@ix.netcom.com><1115909375.1829.144.camel@malatesta><005401c5571c$edfbf360$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><1115983659.1829.157.camel@malatesta>
	<00fd01c557b5$b1471550$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <002f01c557d6$1cd053c0$dca83452@ANNY>

I have the same problem if this can help,
Anny

From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives


> 
> The page you are looking for is not available
> 
> Somehow I cannot find the page you want. Go Back to Copia?
> 
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 7:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 14:03 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
>>> Uche -- this link -- http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_
>>>
>>> Doesn't seem to work.
>>
>> Strange.  I just tried it now and it looks OK.  What were you getting?
>> 404 Not Found?
>>
>> -- 
>> Uche Ogbuji
>> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
>> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri May 13 05:37:36 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 04:37:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology Link
In-Reply-To: <BEA941CD.11F32%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BEA9DF90.8F80%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/12/05 5:24 PM, "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

>> Then that would mean no Graham.
>  
> Not this Graham, alas.  I've written my share of sonnets, as it happens, just
> not any good ones in about 30 years of trying.  It's one of those forms that
> defeats me.   Another is the sestina, but in that, at least, I have lots of
> good company:  very few sestinas by *any* poets that I can make it through
> without snoozing.
> 
> I'm fond of the pantoum, and have published some.  But mostly I write in
> conventional forms as exercise in my journal, or for class examples, etc.
> 
> I greatly admire good sonneteers.  Was disappointed, incidentally, that Sam
> Gwynn's "Body Bags" sequence isn't in the new anthology.  So everyone go out &
> get *No Word of Farewell* & read it.

I?m not much of a sonneteer either and so was pleased to have one of my rare
sonnets taken for the anthology. For some reason, I?m happier with the
villanelles I?ve written. Never tried a pantoum, but I offered it as one
possibility for their final assignment to the students in my Advanced
Metrical Poetry class this semester and one young woman in the class wrote a
knockout.

Paul
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From tad at opus40.org  Fri May 13 14:47:40 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:47:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology Link
References: <BEA9DF90.8F80%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <01a801c557ec$3ff42370$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology LinkI have one student who writes wonderful pantoums. She's a programmer, and she says her mind naturally works in that kind of link.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 5:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology Link


  On 5/12/05 5:24 PM, "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:


      Then that would mean no Graham.


    Not this Graham, alas.  I've written my share of sonnets, as it happens, just not any good ones in about 30 years of trying.  It's one of those forms that defeats me.   Another is the sestina, but in that, at least, I have lots of good company:  very few sestinas by *any* poets that I can make it through without snoozing.

    I'm fond of the pantoum, and have published some.  But mostly I write in conventional forms as exercise in my journal, or for class examples, etc.

    I greatly admire good sonneteers.  Was disappointed, incidentally, that Sam Gwynn's "Body Bags" sequence isn't in the new anthology.  So everyone go out & get *No Word of Farewell* & read it.


  I'm not much of a sonneteer either and so was pleased to have one of my rare sonnets taken for the anthology. For some reason, I'm happier with the villanelles I've written. Never tried a pantoum, but I offered it as one possibility for their final assignment to the students in my Advanced Metrical Poetry class this semester and one young woman in the class wrote a knockout.

  Paul 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Fri May 13 15:46:57 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:46:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <00fd01c557b5$b1471550$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com> <42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com>
	<1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta> <42826478.4040603@ix.netcom.com>
	<1115909375.1829.144.camel@malatesta>
	<005401c5571c$edfbf360$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1115983659.1829.157.camel@malatesta>
	<00fd01c557b5$b1471550$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1116013618.1829.192.camel@malatesta>

On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 08:17 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> The page you are looking for is not available
> 
> Somehow I cannot find the page you want. Go Back to Copia?

I'm baffled.  I just checked on Linux, Windows and Mac, and have no
problems in Firefox, MSIE or Safari.  If you have a moment, could you
try the following link:

http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/#Quot_di_

And then click on the "... comments" link you should see at the bottom
of the entry?

Thanks.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Fri May 13 15:51:06 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:51:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <002f01c557d6$1cd053c0$dca83452@ANNY>
References: <e5.1316bdcc.2fb361a7@cs.com><42821FB5.3020205@ix.netcom.com>
	<1115839028.1829.127.camel@malatesta><42826478.4040603@ix.netcom.com>
	<1115909375.1829.144.camel@malatesta>
	<005401c5571c$edfbf360$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1115983659.1829.157.camel@malatesta>
	<00fd01c557b5$b1471550$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<002f01c557d6$1cd053c0$dca83452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1116013866.1829.198.camel@malatesta>

On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 18:09 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> I have the same problem if this can help,

It's good to know it's a shared problem.  Are you both running Internet
Explorer on Windows?

Let me paste the link again, just in case:

http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_

If it still doesn't work, I'd be very grateful if you try the same
alternate route I asked tad to try.  Start with:

http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/#Quot_di_

You should see the blog entry in context.  AT the bottom of the entry i
a line with blue background.  Click the "... comment(s)" link, and let
me know if it works that way.

Thanks so much for your time.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri May 13 09:10:09 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:10:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <1116013866.1829.198.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <BEAA1161.8F89%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/13/05 2:51 PM, "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 18:09 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> I have the same problem if this can help,
> 
> It's good to know it's a shared problem.  Are you both running Internet
> Explorer on Windows?
> 
> Let me paste the link again, just in case:
> 
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_
> 
> If it still doesn't work, I'd be very grateful if you try the same
> alternate route I asked tad to try.  Start with:
> 
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/#Quot_di_
> 
> You should see the blog entry in context.  AT the bottom of the entry i
> a line with blue background.  Click the "... comment(s)" link, and let
> me know if it works that way.
> 
> Thanks so much for your time.


The link to your blog worked just now for me.

Paul Lake



From shkodrov at yahoo.com  Fri May 13 19:48:05 2005
From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:48:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050513234805.21256.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com>

Tad, Anny, 
 
Are you sure you've gotten the last underscore of the link? The message Tad quoted is part of Uche's site, so obviously you are reaching it, but there is some minor mistake in the URL (I bet -- missing that last underscore!)...
 
Rosie


Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
On 5/13/05 2:51 PM, "Uche Ogbuji" wrote:

> On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 18:09 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> I have the same problem if this can help,
> 
> It's good to know it's a shared problem. Are you both running Internet
> Explorer on Windows?
> 
> Let me paste the link again, just in case:
> 
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_
> 
> If it still doesn't work, I'd be very grateful if you try the same
> alternate route I asked tad to try. Start with:
> 
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/#Quot_di_
> 
> You should see the blog entry in context. AT the bottom of the entry i
> a line with blue background. Click the "... comment(s)" link, and let
> me know if it works that way.
> 
> Thanks so much for your time.


The link to your blog worked just now for me.

Paul Lake

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




How big one should become to grow up?

 











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From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu  Fri May 13 23:32:16 2005
From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:32:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology Link
In-Reply-To: <BEA941CD.11F32%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <002601c5573e$ec1efd90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050513222559.010b4c38@cyrus.undsmhs.net>

At 05:24 PM 5/12/2005 -0500, David Graham wrote:

>I greatly admire good sonneteers.  Was disappointed, incidentally, that 
>Sam Gwynn's "Body Bags" sequence isn't in the new anthology.  So everyone 
>go out & get *No Word of Farewell* & read it.

But the sequence *is* in the _Story Hour_ anthology. That book just 
arrived, and when I opened it, it fell open at "Body Bags." Surely more 
than just a mere coincidence, and confirming the wisdom of my purchase.

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat May 14 02:56:25 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 08:56:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
References: <20050513234805.21256.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c55852$0c379920$79ab3852@ANNY>

Hi Rosie, 

thank you, as Paul Lake said, this is the right link, the one with the closing underscore,

Take care, Anny
  From: Rosie Shkodrov 


  Tad, Anny, 

  Are you sure you've gotten the last underscore of the link? The message Tad quoted is part of Uche's site, so obviously you are reaching it, but there is some minor mistake in the URL (I bet -- missing that last underscore!)...

  Rosie


  Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
    On 5/13/05 2:51 PM, "Uche Ogbuji" wrote:

    > On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 18:09 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
    >> I have the same problem if this can help,
    > 
    > It's good to know it's a shared problem. Are you both running Internet
    > Explorer on Windows?
    > 
    > Let me paste the link again, just in case:
    > 
    > http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_
    > 
    > If it still doesn't work, I'd be very grateful if you try the same
    > alternate route I asked tad to try. Start with:
    > 
    > http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/#Quot_di_
    > 
    > You should see the blog entry in context. AT the bottom of the entry i
    > a line with blue background. Click the "... comment(s)" link, and let
    > me know if it works that way.
    > 
    > Thanks so much for your time.


    The l! ink to your blog worked just now for me.

    Paul Lake

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




  How big one should become to grow up?





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat May 14 08:50:58 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 08:50:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sonnet Anthology Link
Message-ID: <19d.33d5c369.2fb74e32@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/13/2005 10:32:38 PM Central Daylight Time, 
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu writes: 
> 
> But the sequence *is* in the _Story Hour_ anthology. That book just 
> arrived, and when I opened it, it fell open at "Body Bags." Surely more 
> than just a mere coincidence, and confirming the wisdom of my purchase.
> 
> Richard W. Wilsnack
> rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
> 
Check's in the mail, Richard
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Sat May 14 09:36:48 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:36:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] stanley kunitz
Message-ID: <038A4786.4F7241F8.001A46F6@aol.com>

Fresh Laurels for a Former Laureate Now approaching 100, Stanley Kunitz does "the best I can with this self, which is quite frail at the moment but is still at my command." 

Raised by his mother, an immigrant from Lithuania whose husband committed suicide while she was pregnant, the Pulitzer winner published his first collection, *Intellectual Things*, in 1930 and has *The Wild Braid*, about his garden, out this spring. "Poems don't just suddenly come to you. You carry them around for years," he tells Hillel Italie, "but then there comes a time when you feel, 'Ah, that is the one I want to leave behind.'"

Birthday celebrations include an exhibit at Poet's House and a reading in New York. 

Related Links: 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050511/ap_en_ot/books_kunitz_centennial/nc:785 
http://www.poetshouse.org http://www.poetshouse.org/progcoming.htm#stanley




thom tammaro
moorhead, mn


From tad at opus40.org  Sat May 14 13:44:55 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:44:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
References: <20050513234805.21256.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com>
	<004b01c55852$0c379920$79ab3852@ANNY>
Message-ID: <024501c558ac$a62774b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I made it work with the closing underscore, and have bookmarked it.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 2:56 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives


  Hi Rosie, 

  thank you, as Paul Lake said, this is the right link, the one with the closing underscore,

  Take care, Anny
    From: Rosie Shkodrov 


    Tad, Anny, 

    Are you sure you've gotten the last underscore of the link? The message Tad quoted is part of Uche's site, so obviously you are reaching it, but there is some minor mistake in the URL (I bet -- missing that last underscore!)...

    Rosie


    Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
      On 5/13/05 2:51 PM, "Uche Ogbuji" wrote:

      > On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 18:09 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
      >> I have the same problem if this can help,
      > 
      > It's good to know it's a shared problem. Are you both running Internet
      > Explorer on Windows?
      > 
      > Let me paste the link again, just in case:
      > 
      > http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-05-12/Quot_di_
      > 
      > If it still doesn't work, I'd be very grateful if you try the same
      > alternate route I asked tad to try. Start with:
      > 
      > http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/#Quot_di_
      > 
      > You should see the blog entry in context. AT the bottom of the entry i
      > a line with blue background. Click the "... comment(s)" link, and let
      > me know if it works that way.
      > 
      > Thanks so much for your time.


      The l! ink to your blog worked just now for me.

      Paul Lake

      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




    How big one should become to grow up?





----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May 15 02:52:32 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:52:32 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quotation
Message-ID: <006301c5591a$abab01e0$1baf3852@ANNY>

In Italy when something is not prohibited any more it becomes compulsory.

Nenni's Law


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Sun May 15 08:14:09 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 06:14:09 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
In-Reply-To: <024501c558ac$a62774b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <20050513234805.21256.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com>
	<004b01c55852$0c379920$79ab3852@ANNY>
	<024501c558ac$a62774b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1116159249.1829.209.camel@malatesta>

On Sat, 2005-05-14 at 13:44 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> I made it work with the closing underscore, and have bookmarked it.

Whew.  Glad that's sorted out.  Sorry about the URL scheme.  Not to beat
the topic into the ground, but I wanted to mention that if you're
wanting to keep track of updates to the Weblog, rather than just that
entry, you'd instead want to bookmark the main page for Copia:

http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/

If the only topic on Copia you care about is Poetry (I talk about a lot
of computer engineering topics), then you could bookmark:

http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry

Thanks.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun May 15 10:55:10 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:55:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050513222559.010b4c38@cyrus.undsmhs.net>
Message-ID: <BEACCCFE.12081%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/13/05 10:32 PM, Richard Wilsnack at rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:

> At 05:24 PM 5/12/2005 -0500, David Graham wrote:
> 
>> I greatly admire good sonneteers.  Was disappointed, incidentally, that
>> Sam Gwynn's "Body Bags" sequence isn't in the new anthology.  So everyone
>> go out & get *No Word of Farewell* & read it.
> 
> But the sequence *is* in the _Story Hour_ anthology. That book just
> arrived, and when I opened it, it fell open at "Body Bags." Surely more
> than just a mere coincidence, and confirming the wisdom of my purchase.
> 
> Richard W. Wilsnack


This is most odd.  I scanned the table of contents on the Amazon page,
specifically looking for "Body Bags," and didn't spot it.  R. S. Gwynn,
according to Amazon, is represented by "Shakespearean Sonnet," "At Rose's
Range," and "The Great Fear."  No "Body Bags."  Hmmmm.

This is William Baer's book *Sonnets: 150 Contemporary Sonnets*, by the way.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0930982592/ref=sib_rdr_dp/103-2817516
-5710254

In any case, my original advice stands (no need for another check, Sam!)--go
get *No Word of Farewell*.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From tad at opus40.org  Sun May 15 11:15:35 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:15:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link
References: <BEACCCFE.12081%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <006c01c55960$f46f1420$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

David - never turn down a check.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:55 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link


> on 5/13/05 10:32 PM, Richard Wilsnack at rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu 
> wrote:
>
>> At 05:24 PM 5/12/2005 -0500, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> I greatly admire good sonneteers.  Was disappointed, incidentally, that
>>> Sam Gwynn's "Body Bags" sequence isn't in the new anthology.  So 
>>> everyone
>>> go out & get *No Word of Farewell* & read it.
>>
>> But the sequence *is* in the _Story Hour_ anthology. That book just
>> arrived, and when I opened it, it fell open at "Body Bags." Surely more
>> than just a mere coincidence, and confirming the wisdom of my purchase.
>>
>> Richard W. Wilsnack
>
>
> This is most odd.  I scanned the table of contents on the Amazon page,
> specifically looking for "Body Bags," and didn't spot it.  R. S. Gwynn,
> according to Amazon, is represented by "Shakespearean Sonnet," "At Rose's
> Range," and "The Great Fear."  No "Body Bags."  Hmmmm.
>
> This is William Baer's book *Sonnets: 150 Contemporary Sonnets*, by the 
> way.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0930982592/ref=sib_rdr_dp/103-2817516
> -5710254
>
> In any case, my original advice stands (no need for another check, 
> Sam!)--go
> get *No Word of Farewell*.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Sun May 15 11:18:16 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:18:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clearwater
Message-ID: <007301c55961$53fc7180$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

If any of you are East Coast folks, and thinking of going to the Clearwater Festival in Croton-on-Hudson in June, you can hear John Hall singing my new song, "Banks of the Hudson" (it'll be on his new album, too).


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun May 15 11:20:01 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:20:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives
References: <20050513234805.21256.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com><004b01c55852$0c379920$79ab3852@ANNY><024501c558ac$a62774b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1116159249.1829.209.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <008101c55961$92fbc340$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

That's actually what I did.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: sweet memories, sour motives


> On Sat, 2005-05-14 at 13:44 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
>> I made it work with the closing underscore, and have bookmarked it.
>
> Whew.  Glad that's sorted out.  Sorry about the URL scheme.  Not to beat
> the topic into the ground, but I wanted to mention that if you're
> wanting to keep track of updates to the Weblog, rather than just that
> entry, you'd instead want to bookmark the main page for Copia:
>
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/
>
> If the only topic on Copia you care about is Poetry (I talk about a lot
> of computer engineering topics), then you could bookmark:
>
> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From ttrigilio at sbcglobal.net  Sun May 15 11:22:52 2005
From: ttrigilio at sbcglobal.net (Tony Trigilio)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:22:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] COURT GREEN #2
Message-ID: <4287694C.6080308@sbcglobal.net>

Announcing the release of COURT GREEN #2, featuring Elaine Equi, Robyn
Schiff, Wislawa Szymborska, Srikanth Reddy, Robin Becker, Maureen
Seaton, Ed Roberson, Keith Waldrop, Rosmarie Waldrop, Lyn Hejinian,
and many others.  Our "Dossier: Tribute to Lorine Niedecker" includes
poets such as C.D. Wright, Anne Waldman, Theodore Enslin, Elizabeth
Treadwell, Lisa Fishman, Maureen Owen, Jonathan Williams, Stephanie
Strickland, Eleni Sikelianos, Susan Wheeler, Dan Beachy-Quick, and
others.

COURT GREEN is a poetry journal published annually in association with
the English Department at Columbia College Chicago, and is edited by
Arielle Greenberg, Tony Trigilio, and David Trinidad.  Each issue
features a dossier on a special topic or theme.  The first issue,
published in 2004, featured a dossier on poetry and film.  The dossier
for issue #3 (Spring 2006), will be a collection of bout-rimes
sonnets.

Copies are available for $10 each through the address below. Please
make checks payable to Columbia College Chicago.

COURT GREEN
Columbia College Chicago
English Department
600 S. Michigan Ave
Chicago, IL 60605


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May 15 11:23:03 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:23:03 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clearwater
References: <007301c55961$53fc7180$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <004c01c55961$fcdbf320$998e3052@ANNY>

Compliments Tad!
(p.s. you can recycle the one you received from Sam Gwynn, don't worry)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Old Mole 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 5:18 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Clearwater


  If any of you are East Coast folks, and thinking of going to the Clearwater Festival in Croton-on-Hudson in June, you can hear John Hall singing my new song, "Banks of the Hudson" (it'll be on his new album, too).


  Tad Richards
  www.opus40.org


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun May 15 11:30:21 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:30:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link
Message-ID: <6a.5574a007.2fb8c50d@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/15/2005 9:53:50 AM Central Daylight Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> In any case, my original advice stands (no need for another check, Sam!)--go
> get *No Word of Farewell*.
> 
Thanks are in the mail, then.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun May 15 11:31:27 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:31:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link
Message-ID: <214.d78e20.2fb8c54f@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/15/2005 9:53:50 AM Central Daylight Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> his is most odd.  I scanned the table of contents on the Amazon page,
> specifically looking for "Body Bags," and didn't spot it.  R. S. Gwynn,
> according to Amazon, is represented by "Shakespearean Sonnet," "At Rose's
> Range," and "The Great Fear."  No "Body Bags."  Hmmmm.
> 
> This is William Baer's book *Sonnets: 150 Contemporary Sonnets*, by the way.
 I think Bill used only poems that had appeared in The Formalist in this 
anthology.
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun May 15 11:53:04 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:53:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clearwater
References: <007301c55961$53fc7180$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<004c01c55961$fcdbf320$998e3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <00d101c55966$30c880f0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

OK, endorsing it and sending it along. Easy come, easy go.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Clearwater


  Compliments Tad!
  (p.s. you can recycle the one you received from Sam Gwynn, don't worry)
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: The Old Mole 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 5:18 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Clearwater


    If any of you are East Coast folks, and thinking of going to the Clearwater Festival in Croton-on-Hudson in June, you can hear John Hall singing my new song, "Banks of the Hudson" (it'll be on his new album, too).


    Tad Richards
    www.opus40.org


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun May 15 11:58:21 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:58:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ignorance freely confessed
Message-ID: <00f201c55966$ed9ec9f0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I never knew that "Naming of Parts" was part of a longer poem. And what a wonderful poem it is!


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun May 15 12:02:08 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:02:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ignorance freely confessed
Message-ID: <208.10d969f.2fb8cc80@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/15/2005 10:58:50 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tad at opus40.org writes: 
> 
> I never knew that "Naming of Parts" was part of a longer poem. And what a 
> wonderful poem it is!
>   
> 
Isn't "Judging Distances" part of it?  Guess I need to check.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun May 15 12:06:38 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:06:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ignorance freely confessed
Message-ID: <62.5504ba67.2fb8cd8e@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/15/2005 10:58:50 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tad at opus40.org writes: 
> 
> I never knew that "Naming of Parts" was part of a longer poem. And what a 
> wonderful poem it is!
>   
> 
Speaking of Henry Reed:


Chard Whitlow
(Mr. Eliot's Sunday Evening Postscript)


By Henry Reed
Posted Wednesday, Feb. 16, 2000, at 12:30 AM PT 

As we get older we do not get any younger.

Seasons return, and today I am fifty-five,

And this time last year I was fifty-four.

And this time next year I shall be sixty-two.

And I cannot say I should like (to speak for myself)

To see my time over again?if you can call it time:

Fidgeting uneasily under a draughty stair,

Or counting sleepless nights in the crowded tube.



There are certain precautions?though none of them very reliable?

Against the blast from heaven, vento di venti,

And the frigid burnings of purgatory will not be touched

By any emollient.

I think you will find this put,

Better than I could ever hope to express it,

In the words of Kharma: "It is, we believe,

Idle to hope that the simple stirrup-pump

Will extinguish hell."

Oh, listeners,

And you especially who have turned off the wireless,

And sit in Stoke or Basingstoke listening appreciatively to the silence,

(Which is also the silence of hell) pray, not for your sinks, but your souls.



And pray for me also under the draughty stair.

As we get older we do not get any younger.



And pray for Kharma under the holy mountain.

 To be worth parodying is to achieve something, and really great parody is 
tribute. Henry Reed's magnificent and very funny parody doesn't merely catch 
some of Eliot's mannerisms, doesn't merely change a few characteristic phrases. 
Reed conveys some of the inner nature of Eliot's mind, the project of Eliot's 
whole career as a poet.

Eliot wrote: "Most parodies of one's own work strike one as very poor. In 
fact, one is apt to think one could parody oneself much better. (As a matter of 
fact, some critics have said that I have done so.) But there is one which 
deserves the success it has had, Henry Reed's Chard Whitlow."

The mutual tribute involved here retains its freshness and charm.

--Robert Pinsky

 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May 15 12:16:24 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:16:24 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ignorance freely confessed
References: <62.5504ba67.2fb8cd8e@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00b601c55969$719d4ea0$998e3052@ANNY>

Excellent thank you, even if the comment is a little pompous, but that is how comments are.

And to Tad, you are too generous, half would do, and since I also have one from Gwynn I can send half of mine to you,

  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:06 PM

  In a message dated 5/15/2005 10:58:50 AM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: 


    I never knew that "Naming of Parts" was part of a longer poem. And what a wonderful poem it is!
      


  Speaking of Henry Reed:


  Chard Whitlow
  (Mr. Eliot's Sunday Evening Postscript)


  By Henry Reed
  Posted Wednesday, Feb. 16, 2000, at 12:30 AM PT 

  As we get older we do not get any younger.

  Seasons return, and today I am fifty-five,

  And this time last year I was fifty-four.

  And this time next year I shall be sixty-two.

  And I cannot say I should like (to speak for myself)

  To see my time over again?if you can call it time:

  Fidgeting uneasily under a draughty stair,

  Or counting sleepless nights in the crowded tube.



  There are certain precautions?though none of them very reliable?

  Against the blast from heaven, vento di venti,

  And the frigid burnings of purgatory will not be touched

  By any emollient.

  I think you will find this put,

  Better than I could ever hope to express it,

  In the words of Kharma: "It is, we believe,

  Idle to hope that the simple stirrup-pump

  Will extinguish hell."

  Oh, listeners,

  And you especially who have turned off the wireless,

  And sit in Stoke or Basingstoke listening appreciatively to the silence,

  (Which is also the silence of hell) pray, not for your sinks, but your souls.



  And pray for me also under the draughty stair.

  As we get older we do not get any younger.



  And pray for Kharma under the holy mountain.

  To be worth parodying is to achieve something, and really great parody is tribute. Henry Reed's magnificent and very funny parody doesn't merely catch some of Eliot's mannerisms, doesn't merely change a few characteristic phrases. Reed conveys some of the inner nature of Eliot's mind, the project of Eliot's whole career as a poet.

  Eliot wrote: "Most parodies of one's own work strike one as very poor. In fact, one is apt to think one could parody oneself much better. (As a matter of fact, some critics have said that I have done so.) But there is one which deserves the success it has had, Henry Reed's Chard Whitlow."

  The mutual tribute involved here retains its freshness and charm.

  --Robert Pinsky




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun May 15 12:26:50 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:26:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ignorance freely confessed
References: <208.10d969f.2fb8cc80@cs.com>
Message-ID: <011a01c5596a$e8354da0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

And that's not even the whole thing. Here it is:

http://www.solearabiantree.net/namingofparts/namingofparts.html



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 12:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ignorance freely confessed


  In a message dated 5/15/2005 10:58:50 AM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: 


    I never knew that "Naming of Parts" was part of a longer poem. And what a wonderful poem it is!
      


  Isn't "Judging Distances" part of it?  Guess I need to check. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May 15 15:02:31 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:02:31 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Afrogeeks
Message-ID: <000e01c55980$a65a7840$998e3052@ANNY>


AfroGeeks 2005:
Global Blackness and the Digital Public Sphere
May 19-21, 2005
The Center for Black Studies
University of California, Santa Barbara
http://www.afrogeeks.com

-end-
-- 
Cyberculture at zacha.org
http://www.zacha.org/mailman/listinfo/cyberculture

______________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun May 15 15:04:49 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:04:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ignorance freely confessed
Message-ID: <13c.13605087.2fb8f751@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/15/2005 12:27:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
tad at opus40.org writes:

> And that's not even the whole thing. Here it is:
>   
> http://www.solearabiantree.net/namingofparts/namingofparts.html
>   
> 

http://www.solearabiantree.net/namingofparts/audio.html

And a nice audio rendition on that site too.
Finnegan
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May 15 16:24:25 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:24:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tri- Jorge Meretta
Message-ID: <006501c5598c$1696eb10$998e3052@ANNY>

 Fire is not the flame
It is in the flame
Body present in the highest fire
That freezes the stars
And makes God emptier.


Il fuoco non ? la fiamma






Il fuoco non ? la fiamma

E' nella fiamma

Corpo presente del fuoco pi? alto

Che ghiaccia le stelle

E fa Dio pi? vuoto







El fuego no es la llama

Est? en la llama

Cuerpo presente del fuego m?s alto

Que hiela las estrellas

Y hace a Dios m?s vac?o

Jorge Meretta
Uruguay



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun May 15 21:13:12 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:13:12 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Booming Ground Application Deadline Approaching
Message-ID: <d4.2809fdae.2fb94da8@aol.com>

Booming Ground Application Deadline Approaching
?
This email is a reminder that the deadline for our 2005 summer session early 
applications is quickly approaching. Applications received by May 20th will be 
assessed the lowest fee we offer. Applications received after this date will 
still be considered, but will have to pay a higher fee, and we will not be 
able to guarantee that all classes will have space. This year we can accept 
online applications through our website at 
http://bg.arts.ubc.ca/summer/online_apply.cfm. Online applications received before midnight PST on the 20th will be 
accepted at the lowest fee.
?
We expect to be finished processing applications the following week and will 
report to applicants on the 27th or 28th of May. 
?
Online Mentorships
?
For students interested in our online mentorships, we will be announcing 
faculty and full details for the September mentorships on May 30th. 
See our website at http://bg.arts.ubc.ca or email us at bg at mail.arts.ubc.ca 
for more information. 


Sincerely,
Andrew Gray
Director, Booming Ground
?
-------------------------------------
Please note,?you are receiving this email because you have asked in the past 
to be added to Booming Ground's mailing list. We will email this list 
intermittently to promote Booming Ground and related writing workshops at UBC.
To unsubscribe from this list, send an email to majordomo at interchange.ubc.ca 
with the following text in the?body:
? unsubscribe bg-list
? end

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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon May 16 08:55:09 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:55:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Young Cali laureate
Message-ID: <81.27ba85d4.2fb9f22d@aol.com>

May 14, 2005
Mississippi native earns poetry honor
 
The Associated Press
 
   On the net
 
The Academy of American Poets: http://www.poets.org
 
 
 
SACRAMENTO ? Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has named poet and novelist Al Young 
as California's second poet laureate.
 
Young, a 65-year-old Mississippi native, is a two-time recipient of Pushcart 
Prize for poetry and a winner of the PEN-Library of Congress Award for short 
fiction.
 
He has also taught creative writing at Stanford, the University of California 
at Santa Cruz and the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.
 
Schwarzenegger says Young is someone "with a passion for the arts" who will 
inspire Californians.
 
Young was born in 1939 in Ocean Springs and grew up in Mississippi and 
Michigan. He has lived most of his adult life in the San Francisco Bay area.
 
 
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May 16 09:16:27 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:16:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Young Cali laureate
Message-ID: <1d9.3ca586cf.2fb9f72b@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/16/2005 7:55:39 AM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
>  
> 
>  SACRAMENTO ? Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has named poet and novelist Al 
> Young as California's second poet laureate.
> 
> 
Bravo!  Good choice.
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Mon May 16 09:48:57 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:48:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry
Message-ID: <1fc.1b00e4d.2fb9fec9@aol.com>

Rhyme & Unreason

How a Web site purporting to uncover fraud shook up the world of poetry 
contests

By THOMAS BARTLETT
Portland, Ore.

The scourge of the poetry world is sipping black tea and nibbling almond 
cookies in the Tower of Cosmic Reflections on a drizzly Monday afternoon. The name 
of the teahouse may be grandiose but the scourge himself is anything but: 
Alan Cordle is a 36-year-old research librarian at Portland Community College who 
has wispy blond hair and pudgy cheeks. He drives a 1994 Honda Accord, likes 
to hike, and brews his own beer. "These cookies are great," he says with his 
mouth full. The man is harmlessness in blue slacks.

Or is he? For the past year this chipper librarian has been moonlighting as 
the anonymous operator of a Web site devoted to exposing corruption in poetry 
contests, many of which are run by university presses. He has accused poets and 
publishers of fraud, demanded criminal investigations, and sent letters to 
the bosses of suspected wrongdoers listing their purported misdeeds. He has even 
given people mean nicknames.

If you are a supporter of Foetry, as his site is called, you probably think 
of Mr. Cordle as a crusader for fairness, a beacon in a dark alley of 
conspiracy and malfeasance. Maybe even a hero.

If, however, you are one of the poets or publishers he has fingered as a 
cheat (on evidence that at times is just a notch above wild speculation), then you 
probably don't like him very much. In fact, you may have even composed a few 
well-turned phrases to express your contempt. You're a poet, after all; it's 
what you do.

Poetry contests --?particularly the prestigious ones --?do more than boost 
the egos of the winners: They often make a poet's career. The winners get 
published; the losers are left to enter another contest. Published poets are first 
in line to get university teaching jobs, which is one reason they spend a lot 
of time and money (contests often charge "reading fees") trying to win big-name 
competitions. The contests also matter for established poets, who are seeking 
to publish their books and strengthen their reputations.

While the contests might be just the most egregious example of cronyism in 
academic poetry --?a world in which dust-jacket blurbs, invitations to read, and 
visiting professorships depend a lot on personal relationships --?pretty much 
everyone agrees that the system is far from ideal. And to its credit, Foetry 
has persuaded some presses to review their contests and has made judges think 
twice about picking people they know. But it has also caused a lot of 
bitterness and hurt feelings --?and attracted the ire of one of the country's most 
honored poets, the Pulitzer Prize winner Jorie Graham. "It's been a little bit of 
a lynching," she says.

Eyes on the Prizes

Alan Cordle created Foetry in April 2004 after years of watching his wife, 
Kathleen Halme, enter poetry contests and becoming increasingly convinced that 
they weren't fair. At first, it was just Mr. Cordle and his computer. But the 
site gained momentum and soon it was attracting hundreds of visitors each day, 
many of whom also believed that something was rotten about these contests. 
They gossiped and gathered evidence.

Here's an example: In 2002 Brenda Hillman selected a manuscript by Aaron 
McCollough for the Sawtooth Poetry Prize. As part of that honor, Mr. McCollough's 
manuscript was published by Ahsahta Press at Boise State University.

Foetry alleges that Ms. Hillman and Mr. McCollough knew each other and that 
she "helped him revise" his manuscript before the contest. Because of that 
connection, the argument goes, the contest was tainted.

But while Mr. McCollough and Ms. Hillman acknowledge that they had met once 
before the contest, the meeting lasted "for about five minutes," according to 
Ms. Hillman, who has taught poetry at a number of colleges and is a professor 
and poet in residence at Saint Mary's College of California.

Mr. McCollough, now a graduate student in English at the University of 
Michigan at Ann Arbor, calls Foetry's allegations "a bunch of crap." He says he was 
one of a dozen or so students who participated in a weekend seminar conducted 
by Ms. Hillman at the University of Iowa about two years before the contest. 
She did not, he insists, help him revise his manuscript at that time, although 
she did give him some suggestions after he won. Ms. Hillman backs up his 
account.

Mr. Cordle won't reveal his source for this information, but he stands by it.

If Foetry relied exclusively on anonymous tipsters and tenuous connections, 
it would be easy enough to dismiss. It does not. Mr. Cordle --?and this is 
where his librarian training comes in handy --?has made use of open-records laws 
to force presses at public universities to hand over documents related to their 
contests. Tracking down leads and connecting the dots became an obsession for 
Mr. Cordle, who at one point spent 20 hours a week or more working on Foetry. 
"It was fun and addictive," he says. His biggest score came when, through a 
third party, he asked the University of Georgia Press for a list of the recent 
judges of the prize it gives to already-published poets.

For Foetry supporters, what was on that list became the smoking gun. In 
January 1999, Jorie Graham selected a manuscript by the poet and critic Peter Sacks 
for the prize. On its face, that was a shocking revelation. Ms. Graham and 
Mr. Sacks are colleagues at Harvard University. They are also married.

Ms. Graham says it is not that simple. The two were not married in 1999, and 
Ms. Graham had not yet arrived at Harvard. They knew each other, she says, but 
not well. They married in 2000, the same year she moved to Harvard.

But Ms. Graham apparently had some reservations herself: She says she 
informed the editor overseeing the contest, Bin Ramke, that there was a conflict. As 
a result, she says, Mr. Ramke was the judge who actually selected Mr. Sacks's 
book. Normally, Mr. Ramke selects a dozen or so finalists, and the winner is 
selected by a single outside judge.

Documents that Mr. Cordle obtained from the Georgia press, however, do not 
seem to support that scenario. For instance, in a letter Mr. Ramke wrote in 1999 
to the director of the press, he says that Ms. Graham "enthusiastically 
concurs" with his decision to pick Mr. Sacks's work.

Ms. Graham calls that wording a "big mistake" and points to another part of 
the letter in which Mr. Ramke says he would pick the manuscript "even if I were 
alone in the wilderness." Mr. Cordle also obtained through the request a page 
of prose written by Ms. Graham praising Mr. Sacks's book. She says that was 
nothing more than "jacket copy" that Mr. Ramke asked her to write. Mr. Ramke, 
however, says that judges --?whom he calls "outside readers" --?are asked to 
write a page or so about the manuscript "to be used as arguments for publishing 
the book."

That is only one of Ms. Graham's supposed sins, according to Foetry. There 
are other contests in which she selected former students or people she had 
known. In some cases, the allegations seem to be a giant stretch. Just because she 
was at a university at the same time as someone else does not necessarily mean 
they were friends. But Mr. Cordle and others argue that those involved in 
poetry programs at the same university tend to know each other, and so it is not 
unreasonable to assume a connection.

In other cases, Ms. Graham did select poets she had taught. She explains that 
she has had many students over the years and says she isn't biased in favor 
of them. "If a great book happens to be written by a former student who went to 
the University of Iowa 10 years prior," she says, "and that's the best book 
by far, then I'm not going to discriminate against that student."

Go Daddy No

Plenty of poets --?including Ms. Graham --?don't like the contest system. But 
the fact is, poetry books don't sell, and so-called reading fees paid by 
contestants subsidize the cost of publication by small and university presses. 
That works well for the presses, but for poets it can mean spending a small 
fortune trying to get their words into print. Mr. Cordle and his supporters see the 
system as a scheme to defraud na?ve poets while judges select their friends, 
students, and colleagues. Presses argue that it is just a regrettable economic 
necessity.

But even some of those who believe contests are fraught with conflicts of 
interest don't like the way Mr. Cordle has run his Web site. They especially 
didn't like that he ran it anonymously --?at least until last month, when his 
identity was revealed. (Mr. Cordle, for what it's worth, says he was worried about 
his wife's work being discriminated against if his identity were known).

Before that, guessing who ran Foetry had become a popular pastime for poets. 
There was a lot of speculation on poetry-related blogs, much of it far off the 
mark. A blog called whoisfoetry? appeared, coordinating efforts to expose the 
anonymous gadfly.

Mr. Cordle's name finally surfaced after someone complained to his 
Web-hosting service, Go Daddy. A spokesman for the service, which was paid an extra fee 
to keep Mr. Cordle's information confidential, refused to comment for this 
article. However, the terms that registrants agree to when they sign up say that 
the service may reveal the information for a number of reasons, including if 
the Web site embarrasses someone.

And Foetry has certainly embarrassed a lot of people --?sometimes close to 
home. When Mr. Cordle started the site, he assured Ms. Halme that there was no 
way anyone would discover who he was. He took lots of precautions. "I was 
pretty arrogant about not getting caught," he says. Ms. Halme was sure that, 
precautions or no, her husband's obsession with the fairness of poetry contests was 
going to blow up in his face.

She was right.

What made it even more distressing is that Ms. Halme was opposed to the Web 
site from the beginning. This is my world, she told him. How would you like it 
if I started a Web site about research librarians? Also, she knew that people 
would assume that she had a hand in Foetry if his identity became known. To 
this day she says she has never visited the Web site.

"I told him from the beginning that it all sickens me," she says. When asked 
what in particular sickens her, she says it was what people told her about 
Foetry's "ad hominem attacks." She contends that poetry organizations and poets 
themselves, "not my husband's site," should be policing the contests. That 
said, she agrees that the playing field is not level.

When Mr. Cordle discovered that he was no longer anonymous, he says, it felt 
like "a punch in the stomach." He was sitting on the couch, feet propped up, 
working on his laptop. While visiting a poetry-related blog, he noticed 
something strange: his name, address, and home telephone number. He checked another 
site and there they were again. "The cat is out of the bag," one blog declared 
triumphantly.

Ms. Halme happened to be in the room at the time. Mr. Cordle thought briefly 
about keeping it from her, then realized that would be impossible. When he 
told her, he started crying. Then she started crying.

When the tears subsided the anger began. Ms. Halme worried that her poetry 
career would be over now that everyone knew she was married to the man behind 
Foetry. She also knew that her publication history would be put under a 
microscope. The irony is that she is a successful poet: Two of her books have been 
published, one of them by the University of Georgia Press, which Mr. Cordle has 
criticized so relentlessly. She was a winner of a contest he deems unfair. As 
it happens, however, she didn't know the judge the year she won. "It's not 
rigged every year," Mr. Cordle says.

In the end, Mr. Cordle hurt the very person who had inspired him to start 
Foetry. But while the ordeal has been "difficult at times," Ms. Halme says, she 
may forgive him yet. "He's become the cute Michael Moore of poetry," she says 
with a laugh.

Lyrical Malice

Forgive Jorie Graham if she doesn't have much sympathy for Mr. Cordle or his 
wife. Not only has Foetry portrayed her as a serial cheater, it has also made 
fun of the way she poses in photographs and how she sighs during poetry 
readings. Which isn't very nice and certainly has nothing to do with poetry.

Ms. Graham admits that she has visited Foetry often and says the accusations 
and insults have made it difficult for her to write.They have frightened her 
at times. "These are scary people," she says.

The Web site has also made Ms. Graham wonder whether her students at Harvard 
will think she is a fraud. In several extended telephone conversations and 
lengthy e-mail messages, Ms. Graham eloquently expressed the pain Foetry has 
caused her.

Another extremely unhappy party is Janet Holmes, director of Ahsahta Press 
and an associate professor of English at Boise State University, who says the 
allegations against her press are "vicious and untrue." She also doesn't think 
Mr. Cordle is truly interested in fixing the contest system. "It was more like 
'We're going to get these people,'" she says.

Ms. Holmes fired back on her blog, Humanophone, saying Mr. Cordle "should be 
ashamed of himself." For his part, Mr. Cordle posted a picture of Ms. Holmes 
with flashing red eyes. "My sense of justice can come out in immature ways 
sometimes," he says. While he doesn't apologize for the flashing-eyes photo, he 
does acknowledge that there were times he might have gone too far. "I think 
people have a point when they say that my anonymity allowed me to take some ad 
hominem potshots," he says."

Also a target of Foetry's wrath is Bin Ramke, editor of the poetry series at 
the University of Georgia Press and a professor of English at the University 
of Denver, who believes that most of what is on Foetry is little more than 
conspiracy theories and baseless supposition. He agrees that judges should not 
choose friends or spouses, but he says that poets tend to know each other and so 
acting like such connections are a big deal is "strange." "I really don't 
think it's a matter of us corrupt individuals in positions of power who want to 
hand out prizes to friends," he says.

Blank Verses

Mr. Cordle took the Web site down soon after his identity was revealed. He 
had been planning to do so anyway, at his wife's insistence. But after the 
recent publicity --?and after some poets started celebrating its demise --?he 
decided to put it back up. This time his name is on it.

There are signs that university presses are taking some of his charges, or at 
least the publicity they have attracted, seriously. The University of Georgia 
Press has added a disclaimer to its Web site saying that judges of its poetry 
contest should "avoid conflicts of all kinds." Colorado State University has 
added a similar disclaimer for its Colorado Prize for Poetry. Other colleges 
are likely to follow.

There has been some fallout, too. Mr. Ramke says he will step down as editor 
of the poetry series at Georgia because of the controversy, although not 
because he believes he has done anything wrong. Ms. Graham says she will no longer 
judge poetry contests, though she says she made that decision before Foetry's 
allegations.

Ever since Mr. Cordle's name was revealed there has been talk of lawsuits. 
Ms. Holmes's lawyers have sent him a letter. Ms. Graham has been talking over 
her options with legal counsel. Mr. Cordle himself is considering action against 
the hosting service that revealed his name. Everyone it seems is looking for 
justice --?and not the poetic kind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://chronicle.com
Section: Research & Publishing
Volume 51, Issue 37, Page A12 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From tad at opus40.org  Mon May 16 11:10:10 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:10:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
Message-ID: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Probably not news to anyone else, but I just ran across www.newpages.com, which strikes me as a wonderful guide to literary publications and a wide variety of stuff of interest.

 
Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon May 16 11:53:23 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:53:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>


On May 16, 2005, at 11:10 AM, The Old Mole wrote:

> Probably not news to anyone else, but I just ran across 
> www.newpages.com, which strikes me as a wonderful guide to literary 
> publications and a wide?variety of stuff of interest.
> ?
> ?
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org_______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

Looks interesting, Tad. Thanks.

Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon May 16 06:44:55 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 05:44:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet Anthology Link
In-Reply-To: <214.d78e20.2fb8c54f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BEADE3D7.8FE8%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 5/15/05 10:31 AM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 5/15/2005 9:53:50 AM Central Daylight Time,
> grahamd at ripon.edu writes:
>> his is most odd.  I scanned the table of contents on the Amazon page,
>> specifically looking for "Body Bags," and didn't spot it.  R. S. Gwynn,
>> according to Amazon, is represented by "Shakespearean Sonnet," "At Rose's
>> Range," and "The Great Fear."  No "Body Bags."  Hmmmm.
>> 
>> This is William Baer's book *Sonnets: 150 Contemporary Sonnets*, by the way.
> 
> I think Bill used only poems that had appeared in The Formalist in this
> anthology.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Mostly from The Formalist, but my sonnet didn?t appear there.

Paul
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon May 16 17:37:44 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:37:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
Message-ID: <13d.13612fdc.2fba6ca8@aol.com>

Date:    Sun, 15 May 2005 03:54:02 -0400
From:    "patrick at proximate.org" <patrick at PROXIMATE.ORG>
Subject: Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week

The second annual Carrboro International Poetry Festival, to be held at the=
Century Center in downtown Carrboro, NC, starts in less than one week, on =
Saturday May 21. Admission is free.

This year's festival, like last year's, will feature 40 poets from  the US,=
Canada, and Mexico.  The mix of poets includes renowned poets from outside=
of North Carolina along with some of North Carolina's finest poets, includ=
ing a large contingent from the Triangle.

In the coming days the schedule of readers will be posted to the website. (=
http://carrboropoetryfestival.org/)  All of the poets' biographies are up o=
n the site already.  The festival website also contains all the travel info=
rmation you'll need, from a comprehensive listing of local accomodations to=
directions and parking maps.   We even have mp3s of readings from last yea=
r's event.

If you are in North Carolina, please keep an eye out for articles about the=
event in The Chapel Hill News (tomorrow), The Independent (Wednesday), and=
the Raleigh News & Observer (Friday).

Please come to the festival.  The hundreds that turned out to last year's f=
ree event displayed an enthusiasm about poetry in a way I've frankly never =
seen before.  I've tried my best to make it entertaining, fresh, and surpri=
sing.  I expect to see more of that same energy and excitement, as I have w=
orked to make the festival better--not bigger--but better.

I hope to see you next Saturday.

Carrboro International Poetry Festival
Carrboro Century Center
100 N. Greensboro St, Carrboro, NC
Saturday May 21, 12 Noon - 9 PM
Sunday May 22, 12 Noon - 6 PM
http://carrboropoetryfestival.org/

List of participating poets:

Allyssa Wolf + Amy King + Andrea Selch
Carl Martin + Chris Vitiello + Christian B=F6k + Dale Smith
Daniel J. Wideman + Evie Shockley + Gabriel Gudding
Gerald Barrax + Harryette Mullen + Heidi Lynn Staples
Heriberto Yepez + Hoa Nguyen
Joanna Catherine Scott + Joseph Donahue + Julian Semilian
Ken Rumble + Lee Ann Brown + Linh Dinh + Mack Ivey
Marcus Slease + Mary Margaret Sloan + Murat Nemet-Nejat
Patrick Herron + Paul Jones + Philip Nikolayev
Randall Williams + Reb Livingston + Rod Smith
Standard Schaefer + Sue Soltis + Tanya Olson
Tessa Joseph + Todd Sandvik + Tony Tost



Patrick

.. .  .    .       .            .                     .
Patrick Herron
patrick at proximate.org

                  "In doggrell Rimes my Lines are writ
                      As for a Dogge I thought it fit"
                       - Jeremy Taylor, Dogge of Warre

The American Godwar Complex
                            http://proximate.org/tagc/
Carrboro Poetry Festival
                    http://carrboropoetryfestival.org/
Biographical Nonsense
                             http://proximate.org/bio/
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Mon May 16 17:44:14 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:44:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
Message-ID: <a9.739a4099.2fba6e2e@aol.com>

Amazing how many good poets from NC aren't included in that  list.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May 16 18:16:09 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:16:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I searched it for "visual poetry."  Not a single hit.  How can a venue 
claiming to be devoted to the "new" in literature not have something about 
visual poetry?

--You-Know-Who 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May 16 18:22:27 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:22:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00c801c55a65$bea68cf0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Interesting sidelight: Richard Mathews has an article about "other words" 
there that says nothing about visual poetry.  He teaches in Tampa, which 
isn't far from me, and once was a visual poet, a good one, himself--as well 
as a good conventional free verser.  He had a publishing company, the 
Konglomerati Press, that was noted for publishing visual poetry.  He seems 
to have left the fold pretty completely.  I exchanged a letter or two with 
him ten or so years ago.

--Bob G. 




From tad at opus40.org  Mon May 16 18:41:08 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:41:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
	<00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I don't care.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


>I searched it for "visual poetry."  Not a single hit.  How can a venue 
>claiming to be devoted to the "new" in literature not have something about 
>visual poetry?
>
> --You-Know-Who
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May 16 19:15:20 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:15:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>>I searched it for "visual poetry."  Not a single hit.  How can a venue 
>>claiming to be devoted to the "new" in literature not have something about 
>>visual poetry?
>>
>> --You-Know-Who

>I don't care.

>Tad Richards


I know you don't.  Only someone with an interest in poetry would.

--Bob Grumman




From mandolin at mac.com  Mon May 16 19:27:04 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:27:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
	<00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <35DDB4AF-F9C9-4527-9325-51966D12B2B9@mac.com>


On May 16, 2005, at 7:15 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>>> I searched it for "visual poetry."  Not a single hit.  How can a  
>>> venue claiming to be devoted to the "new" in literature not have  
>>> something about visual poetry?
>>>
>>> --You-Know-Who
>>>
>
>
>> I don't care.
>>
>
>
>> Tad Richards
>>
>
>
> I know you don't.  Only someone with an interest in poetry would.
>
> --Bob Grumman
>


Bob, your insults to those who of us who find your hobby-horse a dull  
ride have become exccedingly tiresome.


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May 16 19:29:45 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:29:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
Message-ID: <90.5dfcb8ce.2fba86e9@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/16/2005 4:39:16 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> Date:    Sun, 15 May 2005 03:54:02 -0400
> From:    "patrick at proximate.org" <patrick at PROXIMATE.ORG>
> Subject: Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
> 
> The second annual Carrboro International Poetry Festival, to be held at the=
> Century Center in downtown Carrboro, NC, starts in less than one week, on =
> Saturday May 21. Admission is free.
Mike Snider, wake up!
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May 16 19:30:54 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:30:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
Message-ID: <103.617bbefb.2fba872e@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/16/2005 4:45:56 PM Central Daylight Time, 
AlMaginnes at aol.com writes: 
> 
> Amazing how many good poets from NC aren't included in that list.
> 
I think Mike should take over for Marcus Slease.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May 16 20:13:48 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:13:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<35DDB4AF-F9C9-4527-9325-51966D12B2B9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01c55a75$4cc0e2b0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> 
> On May 16, 2005, at 7:15 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
>>>> I searched it for "visual poetry."  Not a single hit.  How can a  
>>>> venue claiming to be devoted to the "new" in literature not have  
>>>> something about visual poetry?
>>>>
>>>> --You-Know-Who
>>>>
>>
>>
>>> I don't care.
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Tad Richards
>>>
>>
>>
>> I know you don't.  Only someone with an interest in poetry would.
>>
>> --Bob Grumman
>>
> 
> 
> Bob, your insults to those who of us who find your hobby-horse a dull  
> ride have become exccedingly tiresome.

He didn't insult me?



From mandolin at mac.com  Mon May 16 20:22:20 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:22:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
In-Reply-To: <103.617bbefb.2fba872e@cs.com>
References: <103.617bbefb.2fba872e@cs.com>
Message-ID: <347F9E93-BAA0-471C-94FA-85A939DBB8CC@mac.com>


On May 16, 2005, at 7:30 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/16/2005 4:45:56 PM Central Daylight Time,  
> AlMaginnes at aol.com writes:
>>
>> Amazing how many good poets from NC aren't included in that list.
>
> I think Mike should take over for Marcus Slease.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


Patrick Herron is the Poet Laureate of Carrboro and the organizer of  
the festival, now in it's second year. The local folks are almost all  
students at either Duke or Chapel Hill, and many of them members of  
the Lucifer Poetics Group (Society?). I know some of them, including  
Marcus, Patrick, Tessa Joseph (editor of the Carolina Review), Ken  
Rumble, E. V. Noechel, and through them I've met Cole Swenson and  
Kent Johnson. They're a pretty determinedly avant garde bunch. They  
tolerate me -- maybe because I'm not there enough to really piss them  
off.  But I'm also not there enough to have any influence --  11 out  
of 14 days I'm in Maryland at patuxent River Naval Air Station, and  
when I am in NC, I spend it with my wife (I'm not there enough to  
piss her off either) and our kids.

I can't be there this year, but last year there were people like John  
Balaban, Gerald Barrax, and Paul Jones  as well as the pomo crowd.  
Paul Jones is a really interesting guy (blog here: http:// 
www.ibiblio.org/pjones/blog/ ), a comp sci mostly formalist poet. His  
"What the Chinese and Welsh Have in Common" was one of the first  
things that re-interested me in form after years in the wilderness.

On the schedule are writers whose poetry Ron Silliman doesn't think  
much of -- Andrea Selch and Evie Shockley -- so it can't be all bad.  
The Lucipo booklet they're distributing there will  have two of my  
poems in it, and I'm reading with a touring group in Baltimore  
sometime in July(?). Subversion starts small.






From tad at opus40.org  Mon May 16 20:45:37 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:45:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><35DDB4AF-F9C9-4527-9325-51966D12B2B9@mac.com>
	<00fa01c55a75$4cc0e2b0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002201c55a79$c143dd00$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I might have. But I was telling the truth. I don't care. I don't define an 
enemy of poetry by how seriously he takes rebuses. I'll discuss visual 
poetry, or mathematiku, or burstnorm poetry, on a thread in which any 
interesting point is made about them. But I don't believe that the only 
important thing to say about any poetry site is that it either is, or is not 
an enemy of poetry based on how many rebuses it links to.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


>>
>> On May 16, 2005, at 7:15 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>>
>>>>> I searched it for "visual poetry."  Not a single hit.  How can a 
>>>>> venue claiming to be devoted to the "new" in literature not have 
>>>>> something about visual poetry?
>>>>>
>>>>> --You-Know-Who
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I don't care.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Tad Richards
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know you don't.  Only someone with an interest in poetry would.
>>>
>>> --Bob Grumman
>>>
>>
>>
>> Bob, your insults to those who of us who find your hobby-horse a dull 
>> ride have become exccedingly tiresome.
>
> He didn't insult me?
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May 16 21:56:28 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:56:28 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
Message-ID: <d1.28d07f5c.2fbaa94c@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/16/2005 7:23:08 PM Central Daylight Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes: 
> I can't be there this year, but last year there were people like John  
> Balaban, Gerald Barrax, and Paul Jones  as well as the pomo crowd.  
> Paul Jones is a really interesting guy (blog here: http:// 
> www.ibiblio.org/pjones/blog/ ), a comp sci mostly formalist poet. His  
> "What the Chinese and Welsh Have in Common" was one of the first  
> things that re-interested me in form after years in the wilderness.
> 
I'm fond of Balban's work and love Barrax's, so maybe next year they'll 
recognize a local who's worth recognizing!
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May 16 22:02:00 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:02:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
Message-ID: <12f.5d5d10aa.2fbaaa98@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/16/2005 8:56:54 PM Central Daylight Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: 
> blog here: http:// 
> www.ibiblio.org/pjones/blog/

I believe Paul's the guy who had me read at that converted cotton mill some 
years ago.  Nice guy.  Give him my best.  Really a nice place to 
read--especially since I spent three long summers in the spinning room at Spray Cotton 
Mills.  Less lint that time around!
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May 16 22:07:03 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:07:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><35DDB4AF-F9C9-4527-9325-51966D12B2B9@mac.com><00fa01c55a75$4cc0e2b0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002201c55a79$c143dd00$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <012101c55a85$1ece1660$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


>I might have (insulted Bob G.). But I was telling the truth. I don't care. 
>I don't define an
> enemy of poetry by how seriously he takes rebuses.

--Tad Richards

Did I define the site as an enemy of poetry?  No.  I sneered at its 
misrepresentation of itself as being about "new poetry."  Did I mention 
"rebuses?"  No.  I mentioned visual poetry.

>I'll discuss visual poetry, or mathematiku, or burstnorm poetry, on a 
>thread in which any interesting point is made about them. But I don't 
>believe that the only important thing to say about any poetry site is that 
>it either is, or is not an enemy of poetry based on how many rebuses it 
>links to.

I see.  I mentioned one thing about this poetry site in my post--which means 
that one thing is, for me, "the only important thing to say about any poetry 
site."  Think it over.  That is not a rational generalization to make.

>From my point of view, I've been voicing all kinds of thoughts about all 
kinds of poetries and being pretty much ignored or had threads I've started 
turned into joke-contests.  A small percentage of the time I voice my 
exasperation at the Wilshberia crowd.  Why shouldn't I?  A form of poetry 
I've devoted most of my adulthood to is dismissed as rebuses 90% of the time 
any of the Wilshberia crowd gets annoyed with me enough to notice its 
existence.  The result: Wilshberians claim all I do is push my hobby horse. 
Do a search of New-Poetry's archives and you'll find it's not close to true.

--Bob G.




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May 16 22:09:37 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:09:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
Message-ID: <105.612431ba.2fbaac61@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/16/2005 9:07:18 PM Central Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> Wilshberia crowd
What is this, exactly? (Not to start a thread, but I fear I've missed 
something.)
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May 16 22:11:00 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:11:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
Message-ID: <1a5.377eddbf.2fbaacb4@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/16/2005 9:07:18 PM Central Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> Wilshberia crowd
Never mind.  I Googled it and found your blog post, Bob.
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From aburke at iinet.net.au  Mon May 16 23:53:05 2005
From: aburke at iinet.net.au (Andrew Burke)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:53:05 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


> >>I searched it for "visual poetry."  Not a single hit.  How can a venue
> >>claiming to be devoted to the "new" in literature not have something
about
> >>visual poetry?
> >>
> >> --You-Know-Who
>
> >I don't care.
>
> >Tad Richards
>
>
> I know you don't.  Only someone with an interest in poetry would.
>
> --Bob Grumman
>
When I last tried to include some concrete poetry (somewhat visual) in a
collection, the publisher told me it was 'old hat'.

Andrew




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May 16 23:34:47 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 04:34:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
Message-ID: <03bf01c55a91$60889a10$44169c51@Robin>

> When I last tried to include some concrete poetry (somewhat visual) in a
> collection, the publisher told me it was 'old hat'.
>
> Andrew

In the wake of Bob's search for "visual poetry" I searched for "concrete
poetry" and got one hit, so maybe it *is* old hat,  Andrew.  <g>  I think
only having one reference is worse than none at all -- means they admit the
form exists and think it irrelevant.

But I wonder how far this is the fault of the site itself?  It seems to me,
from my few cursory visits, that it tries to reflect what exists rather than
initiating anything of it's own.

In that case, Bob, the answer would be to contact the site organisers and
direct them to places where visual poetry can be found.  If they turn you
down or brush you off or whatever, then I think you'd have a stronger case.

Come back here and report if you do -- I'd be interested to see what
happens.

Robin




From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 17 00:01:24 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:01:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
	<03bf01c55a91$60889a10$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <007401c55a95$1aba2180$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I've actually just written a visual poem, which I guess puts me behind the 
curve.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


>> When I last tried to include some concrete poetry (somewhat visual) in a
>> collection, the publisher told me it was 'old hat'.
>>
>> Andrew
>
> In the wake of Bob's search for "visual poetry" I searched for "concrete
> poetry" and got one hit, so maybe it *is* old hat,  Andrew.  <g>  I think
> only having one reference is worse than none at all -- means they admit 
> the
> form exists and think it irrelevant.
>
> But I wonder how far this is the fault of the site itself?  It seems to 
> me,
> from my few cursory visits, that it tries to reflect what exists rather 
> than
> initiating anything of it's own.
>
> In that case, Bob, the answer would be to contact the site organisers and
> direct them to places where visual poetry can be found.  If they turn you
> down or brush you off or whatever, then I think you'd have a stronger 
> case.
>
> Come back here and report if you do -- I'd be interested to see what
> happens.
>
> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue May 17 00:02:20 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:02:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
Message-ID: <212.f07094.2fbac6cc@aol.com>

John Balaban is the guiding force behind the new MFA at North Carolina  State 
where Jerry Barrax held down hte poetry fort for many years. Lots of good  
writers in those woods.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue May 17 06:04:28 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:04:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
Message-ID: <001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> When I last tried to include some concrete poetry (somewhat visual) in a
> collection, the publisher told me it was 'old hat'.
> 
> Andrew

Well, compared to free verse, it'd have to be, I guess.

--Bob



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue May 17 06:25:47 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:25:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
	<03bf01c55a91$60889a10$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <001701c55aca$caa82d00$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> When I last tried to include some concrete poetry (somewhat visual) in a
>> collection, the publisher told me it was 'old hat'.
>>
>> Andrew
>
> In the wake of Bob's search for "visual poetry" I searched for "concrete
> poetry" and got one hit, so maybe it *is* old hat,  Andrew.  <g>  I think
> only having one reference is worse than none at all -- means they admit 
> the
> form exists and think it irrelevant.
>
> But I wonder how far this is the fault of the site itself?  It seems to 
> me,
> from my few cursory visits, that it tries to reflect what exists rather 
> than
> initiating anything of it's own.

I strongly suspect that it's just one more conventional poetry site.  It 
just bothered me that it presents itself as an "alternative."  And, of 
course, it does NOT reflect what exists, only what exists in the mainstream 
magazines.  I review visual and related poetries for Small Press Review, and 
can't come close to keeping up with the books and magazines devoted to it, 
some of them with the glossiest possible covers (though not many are 
hardbound).

But it all comes down to my main complaint, which is that there seem to be 
so few visible venues that truly covers the range of contemporary poetry, 
and I really don't understand why--even if visual poetry were only composed 
by a handful of poets, like mathematical poetry.  (I'm really a mathematical 
poet, now, not a visual poet, but I see no particular reason mainstreamers 
should be familiar with mathematical poetry.)

I was going to say that there are NO reasonably visible venues presenting 
the full range of contemporary, then remember light & dust.  It and a few 
other websites run by people doing otherstream poetry include conventional 
poetry.

--Bob G.

> In that case, Bob, the answer would be to contact the site organisers and
> direct them to places where visual poetry can be found.  If they turn you
> down or brush you off or whatever, then I think you'd have a stronger 
> case.
>
> Come back here and report if you do -- I'd be interested to see what
> happens.
>
> Robin

Maybe one of these days I'll start trying to make all the conventional 
poetry sites out there aware of the poetries they're overlooking, but I 
haven't time to now, Robin.

--Bob 




From chan_jt at hotmail.com  Tue May 17 07:59:44 2005
From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (JT Chan)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:59:44 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Smell of Oranges
Message-ID: <BAY23-F1315E42D1D91E820D7285F8A160@phx.gbl>

The Smell of Oranges

My mother would ask
if I wanted them cut or peeled.
I'd answer that I wanted them peeled
if only to see her fingers hold them
like clay to be molded.
After peeling their husk,
she would put her thumbs in the centre
and break each into halves;
Later separate the slices, one by one.

I marvel at the flexible skins
pulling away,
not ever breaking at the pressure.


- Jill Chan

from The Smell of Oranges,
published by Earl of Seacliff Art Workshop

http://navelorange.blogspot.com

_________________________________________________________________
Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @ 
http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 17 09:22:58 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:22:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
Message-ID: <13c.137b497c.2fbb4a32@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/16/2005 11:02:48 PM Central Daylight Time, 
AlMaginnes at aol.com writes: 
> 
> John Balaban is the guiding force behind the new MFA at North Carolina State 
> where Jerry Barrax held down hte poetry fort for many years. Lots of good 
> writers in those woods.
> 
Betty Adcock is one.
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue May 17 09:24:57 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:24:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival in less than one week
Message-ID: <90.5e04b77d.2fbb4aa9@aol.com>

She sure is. She's been getting recognized some lately, but she deserves  all 
the limelight she gets amd more.
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From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 17 09:36:04 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:36:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
	<001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Bob - speaking objectively, there are other conclusions that could be drawn. 
For example, that concrete poetry has lost its freshness, while free verse 
has not yet...that there poetic truths still to be mined from free verse, 
but concrete poetry has pretty much played out its vein.

One could draw yet another conclusion, that the publisher was wrong.

Or that the publisher just didn't like Andrew's concrete poetry, but was 
trying to be tactful.

Or the publisher figured he could make megabucks and maybe get a Hollywood 
sale off of Andrew, if he could only convince him to write Iowa flatline 
poetry and stay away from that awesomely creative but box office poison 
burstnorm.

Or...your conclusion.



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 6:04 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


>
>> When I last tried to include some concrete poetry (somewhat visual) in a
>> collection, the publisher told me it was 'old hat'.
>>
>> Andrew
>
> Well, compared to free verse, it'd have to be, I guess.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue May 17 10:14:49 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:14:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <03bf01c55a91$60889a10$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <ECOWS04MoWo7w0nGEbJ0008c221@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>

 
> In the wake of Bob's search for "visual poetry" I searched 
> for "concrete poetry" and got one hit, so maybe it *is* old 
> hat,  Andrew.  <g>  I think only having one reference is 
> worse than none at all -- means they admit the form exists 
> and think it irrelevant.

Where did you search? In your pantry? Google says:

Results 1 - 10 of about 37,200 for "concrete poetry" [definition]. (0.28
seconds) 
Without quotes: Results 1 - 10 of about 934,000 for concrete poetry 

:P



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 17 10:44:57 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:44:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS04MoWo7w0nGEbJ0008c221@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <011201c55aee$ff8acd10$44169c51@Robin>

> > In the wake of Bob's search for "visual poetry" I searched
> > for "concrete poetry" and got one hit, so maybe it *is* old
> > hat,  Andrew.  <g>  I think only having one reference is
> > worse than none at all -- means they admit the form exists
> > and think it irrelevant.
>
> Where did you search? In your pantry? Google says:
>
> Results 1 - 10 of about 37,200 for "concrete poetry"

Specifically, for examples on the site at issue, which was what Bob did too.

(If you try the same trick with "visual poetry", google gives 76,500 hits as
against the zero score which Bob got if you limit it to NewPages.  Name of
the game.  So what else is new?)

Mind you, 38,800 [current re-search] google hits on the (narrow) "concrete
poetry" against 76,500  on the (narrow) "visual poetry" suggests that
currently visual poetry is hotter than concrete poetry, which ought to cheer
Bob up just a little.

(There are 913 overlap hits if you use both quote-limited terms on google at
the same time.)

I may be dumb but I'm not *that* dumb, Peter -- I was perfectly aware that a
general google on "concrete poetry" would have turned up lots more hits.

History versus today's newspaper.

I mean, I was *there* ...

        <g>

Robin

(Who has recently backchanneled Bob Grumman five images of concrete poetry
texts that Edwin Morgan wrote in the early sixties.)




From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue May 17 10:59:49 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:59:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <011201c55aee$ff8acd10$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <ECOWS04MCQbmBYPM5qk0008c8d7@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>

I thought I must have been missing something, context-wise.
(chuckles)
P 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 17 11:12:02 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:12:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS04MCQbmBYPM5qk0008c8d7@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <012601c55af2$c865afe0$44169c51@Robin>

> I thought I must have been missing something, context-wise.
> (chuckles)
> P

"Oh, we *all* make mistakes sometimes," said Robin (smirking complacently).

And I needed something to cheer myself up with at the moment given what
all's going-on over at poetryetc currently.

            :-(

Thanks for giving me the chance to jump up and down on top of your ribs with
my Doc Martens.

        <g>

The Stone Dormouse




From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue May 17 11:55:50 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:55:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <012601c55af2$c865afe0$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <ECOWS06MyYtqosPGMTj0008b560@smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk>

lmao 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of 
> Robin Hamilton
> Sent: 17 May 2005 16:12
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource
> 
> > I thought I must have been missing something, context-wise.
> > (chuckles)
> > P
> 
> "Oh, we *all* make mistakes sometimes," said Robin (smirking 
> complacently).
> 
> And I needed something to cheer myself up with at the moment 
> given what all's going-on over at poetryetc currently.
> 
>             :-(
> 
> Thanks for giving me the chance to jump up and down on top of 
> your ribs with my Doc Martens.
> 
>         <g>
> 
> The Stone Dormouse
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 17 12:04:38 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:04:38 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS06MyYtqosPGMTj0008b560@smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <018f01c55afa$20ff8e30$44169c51@Robin>

Peter:

> lmao 

        ???

                The Stone Dormouse



From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue May 17 12:10:02 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:10:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <018f01c55afa$20ff8e30$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <ECOWS03M4Gxl1ybMvwL0009049e@smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk>

Laugh my ass/arse off 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of 
> Robin Hamilton
> Sent: 17 May 2005 17:05
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource
> 
> Peter:
> 
> > lmao
> 
>         ???
> 
>                 The Stone Dormouse
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 17 12:21:59 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:21:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS03M4Gxl1ybMvwL0009049e@smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <006401c55afc$90d5b430$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Depending on whether you're British or American.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Cudmore" <peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views'" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Resource


> Laugh my ass/arse off
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
>> Robin Hamilton
>> Sent: 17 May 2005 17:05
>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource
>>
>> Peter:
>>
>> > lmao
>>
>>         ???
>>
>>                 The Stone Dormouse
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 17 12:22:14 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:22:14 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS03M4Gxl1ybMvwL0009049e@smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <01a601c55afc$96c49050$44169c51@Robin>

> Laugh my ass/arse off 

Right.

(

God, can I be ever so slow sometimes.   

:-(   

)

    The Stone Dormouse



From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue May 17 12:37:04 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:37:04 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <018f01c55afa$20ff8e30$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <ECOWS01MHWFIhyGuJAq00090c35@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>

Then there's lol, which is 'laugh out loud' but I always associate with
dog-like tongue-dangling, and rotflmao, which is lmao while rolling on the
floor

:P

> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of 
> Robin Hamilton
> Sent: 17 May 2005 17:05
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource
> 
> Peter:
> 
> > lmao
> 
>         ???
> 
>                 The Stone Dormouse
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 17 12:38:49 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:38:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS03M4Gxl1ybMvwL0009049e@smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk>
	<006401c55afc$90d5b430$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <01bf01c55afe$e7f23390$44169c51@Robin>

> Depending on whether you're British or American.
>
> Tad Richards

It's also slightly a contextual distinction, Tad, at least in the UK (dunno
about the US) as both versions run here in different situations -- like the
David Frost's Younger Brother Joke.

I've been meaning to try and get my head round this but I always seem to end
up baffled, patting my back and scratching my Whatsit instead.

        The Stone Dormouse

> > Laugh my ass/arse off




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 17 13:24:24 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:24:24 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS01MHWFIhyGuJAq00090c35@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <01e701c55b05$46aec4b0$44169c51@Robin>

> Then there's lol, which is 'laugh out loud'

Yeah, I know that one, Peter.

(Can also translate as "lots of laughs," nah?)

> but I always associate with
> dog-like tongue-dangling, and rotflmao, which is lmao while rolling on the
> floor

> :P

... and there was I about to say that I'm better at smileys than
initial-slang, and you go and stick your tongue out at me!

(though the class way of doing that is to use the wyn character.)

Bet you can't do Japanese smileys.

        TANJ!!!

The Stone Dormouse




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue May 17 16:31:24 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:31:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Bob - speaking objectively, there are other conclusions that could be 
> drawn. For example, that concrete poetry has lost its freshness, while 
> free verse has not yet...that there poetic truths still to be mined from 
> free verse, but concrete poetry has pretty much played out its vein.
>
> One could draw yet another conclusion, that the publisher was wrong.
>
> Or that the publisher just didn't like Andrew's concrete poetry, but was 
> trying to be tactful.
>
> Or the publisher figured he could make megabucks and maybe get a Hollywood 
> sale off of Andrew, if he could only convince him to write Iowa flatline 
> poetry and stay away from that awesomely creative but box office poison 
> burstnorm.
>
> Or...your conclusion.

We lack sufficient data to judge.  The main unknown is whether the publisher 
thought concrete old hat (it isn't--that's a fact) or thought Andrew's 
poetry old hat (we don't know whether it was or not).

Concrete poetry--now called visual poetry by just about everybody in the 
field--can't very well be old hat since it's now adding color, animation and 
all kinds of new visual techniques whereas free verse used up its few 
possible techniques decades ago (except where it's evolved into other 
poetries, such as visual poetry, a form of free verse too difference from 
standard free verse to be called free verse).  But lots of new visual poets 
are re-inventing the flat.

--Bob G.
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 6:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource
>
>
>>
>>> When I last tried to include some concrete poetry (somewhat visual) in a
>>> collection, the publisher told me it was 'old hat'.
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>
>> Well, compared to free verse, it'd have to be, I guess.
>>
>> --Bob
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue May 17 16:37:24 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:37:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS04MCQbmBYPM5qk0008c8d7@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00d001c55b20$3c27ce90$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Nuts, Robin answered afore I could really put you in your place.

--Bob G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Cudmore" <peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views'" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Resource


>I thought I must have been missing something, context-wise.
> (chuckles)
> P
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 17 17:17:42 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:17:42 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS04MCQbmBYPM5qk0008c8d7@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>
	<00d001c55b20$3c27ce90$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <02eb01c55b25$ddda0e60$44169c51@Robin>

> Nuts, Robin answered afore I could really put you in your place.
> 
> --Bob G.

Bet I did it better than you would have done, Bob.

                        <g>

        The Stone Dormouse
 
> >I thought I must have been missing something, context-wise.
> > (chuckles)
> > P




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue May 17 17:32:56 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:32:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS04MCQbmBYPM5qk0008c8d7@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk><00d001c55b20$3c27ce90$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<02eb01c55b25$ddda0e60$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <00f901c55b27$fe2c3790$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> Nuts, Robin answered afore I could really put you in your place.
>>
>> --Bob G.
>
> Bet I did it better than you would have done, Bob.

Yeah, but you weren't anywhere near as nasty as I would have been, and nasty 
is all I live for.  (My obsession with visual poetry is fake--I only pretend 
to like it in order to be nasty to those who don't.)

--Bob G.





From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 17 17:42:02 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:42:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>

Um, Bob ...

> Concrete poetry--now called visual poetry by just about everybody in the
> field--

Well, they may call it so but that don't make it so.  Concrete poetry ran
out of steam in the late sixties, in the UK at least.  Various other
non-mainstream techniques took over (the most interesting of which I think
was sound poetry), but as far as I can see, "visual poetry" is a separate
and later development.

> can't very well be old hat since it's now adding color, animation and
> all kinds of new visual techniques

... see above.

> whereas free verse used up its few
> possible techniques decades ago

Odd that so many people are still writing it then.  And writing it well.

(I'm in the process of rereading Ann Sexton's +The Awful Rowing Towards God+
at this moment, and as well as being quite terrifying, there are formal
possibilities there that haven't been remotely explored.)

> (except where it's evolved into other
> poetries, such as visual poetry, a form of free verse too difference from
> standard free verse to be called free verse).

I'm not sure I get the link between *any* kind of free verse and either
concrete or visual poetry.  Horses of quite different colours.

> But lots of new visual poets
> are re-inventing the flat.

The flat?  Line poetry?

Given that the iambic pentameter happily and productively dominated the
English poetic scene from about 1500 to 1900 ( and was still being extended
later -- as in Stevens' "Sunday Morning"), it seems to me that whatever
objections you level against free verse, Bob, to suggest that it's "already
played out" (K, you didn't quite say that but you implied it) is a bit weak.

That's not to say that other forms can't coexist with the dominant one -- 
Coleridge was writing "Cristabel" while Wordsworth was gaining fame and a
pension with +The Prelude+, and there's Blake obviously, before we cross the
Pond to Whitman and Emily Dickinson.

But I just can't buy the image of a slavering band of visual young turk
poets taking over the verbal universe.

Because there's that final court -- the public, the people who read our work
(and they still exist outside the chartered hells of academe where the
impressionable young are force-fed texts like geese fattened for pate).

All seems a bit to me like a politician who's lost an election suggesting
that we dissolve the public and elect another one.

Never worked, never will.  There's a final court of appeal (as well as the
test of time) and you can't get round it.

EndRant

        The Stone Dormouse.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue May 17 18:26:57 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:26:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Um, Bob ...
>
>> Concrete poetry--now called visual poetry by just about everybody in the
>> field--
>
> Well, they may call it so but that don't make it so.  Concrete poetry ran
> out of steam in the late sixties, in the UK at least.  Various other
> non-mainstream techniques took over (the most interesting of which I think
> was sound poetry), but as far as I can see, "visual poetry" is a separate
> and later development.

Concrete poetry was poetry in which the visual appearance of a poem's text 
was significant.  It became visual poetry.  Many who compose visual poetry 
make a point of claiming not to be concrete poets or to be doing anything 
connected to concrete poetry, but that's silly.

>> can't very well be old hat since it's now adding color, animation and
>> all kinds of new visual techniques
>
> ... see above.
>
>> whereas free verse used up its few
>> possible techniques decades ago
>
> Odd that so many people are still writing it then.  And writing it well.

Not at all odd.  As I keep saying, you can compose worthwhile poems without 
doing anything significantly new technically.  New subject-matter, new 
points-of-view, juggling one more ball than anyone else ever has, etc.

> (I'm in the process of rereading Ann Sexton's +The Awful Rowing Towards 
> God+
> at this moment, and as well as being quite terrifying, there are formal
> possibilities there that haven't been remotely explored.)

Name one, please.

>> (except where it's evolved into other
>> poetries, such as visual poetry, a form of free verse too different from
>> standard free verse to be called free verse).
>
> I'm not sure I get the link between *any* kind of free verse and either
> concrete or visual poetry.  Horses of quite different colours.

free verse at first gave more expressive potential to what I call terminal 
line-breaks; that led to initial and internal line-breaks--which was one of 
the things that led to "liberated text-placement," a key feature of all 
visual poetry.  (ad hoc term)

>> But lots of new visual poets
>> are re-inventing the flat.
>
> The flat?  Line poetry?

wheel/tire/flat tire

> Given that the iambic pentameter happily and productively dominated the
> English poetic scene from about 1500 to 1900 ( and was still being 
> extended
> later -- as in Stevens' "Sunday Morning"), it seems to me that whatever
> objections you level against free verse, Bob, to suggest that it's 
> "already
> played out" (K, you didn't quite say that but you implied it) is a bit 
> weak.

technically played out.

> That's not to say that other forms can't coexist with the dominant one -- 
> Coleridge was writing "Cristabel" while Wordsworth was gaining fame and a
> pension with +The Prelude+, and there's Blake obviously, before we cross 
> the
> Pond to Whitman and Emily Dickinson.
>
> But I just can't buy the image of a slavering band of visual young turk
> poets taking over the verbal universe.

Who is trying to sell it to you?

> Because there's that final court -- the public, the people who read our 
> work
> (and they still exist outside the chartered hells of academe where the
> impressionable young are force-fed texts like geese fattened for pate).
>
> All seems a bit to me like a politician who's lost an election suggesting
> that we dissolve the public and elect another one.
>
> Never worked, never will.  There's a final court of appeal (as well as the
> test of time) and you can't get round it.
>
> EndRant

Right--but my problem is with the people between my kind of poetry and that 
final court of appeal.

Bob 




From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue May 17 20:23:46 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 01:23:46 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <00f901c55b27$fe2c3790$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <ECOWS01McVeuuLt3StB0009251f@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>

Have a go if yr bard enough, mate. Don't quite see how you arrive at the
conclusion that I'm against visual poetry, however--or are you criticising
me for being pro-? 

:P

> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman
> Sent: 17 May 2005 22:33
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource
> 
> >> Nuts, Robin answered afore I could really put you in your place.
> >>
> >> --Bob G.
> >
> > Bet I did it better than you would have done, Bob.
> 
> Yeah, but you weren't anywhere near as nasty as I would have 
> been, and nasty is all I live for.  (My obsession with visual 
> poetry is fake--I only pretend to like it in order to be 
> nasty to those who don't.)
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 17 20:40:08 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 20:40:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
Message-ID: <1c2.28d49197.2fbbe8e8@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/17/2005 4:32:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Concrete poetry--now called visual poetry by just about everybody in the 
> field--can't very well be old hat since it's now adding color, animation and 
> 
> all kinds of new visual techniques whereas free verse used up its few 
> possible techniques decades ago (except where it's evolved into other 
> poetries, such as visual poetry, a form of free verse too difference from 
> standard free verse to be called free verse).  But lots of new visual poets 
> are re-inventing the flat.
> 

I'll weigh in here...I respect and enjoy visual poetry (or concrete). The 
resources
of poetic language (free, formal, or formally free) are inexhaustible and 
that's 
the impetus behind all of what poetry is as an art. The attraction of many 
poets to poetry, as an art, is related to its basis in words, text and 
speech. 
They are deeply attracted to the non-visual aspect of the art (except, of 
course, 
that the 'image' made purely of language is inextricably part of that 
attraction). 
Finnegan 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 17 20:46:33 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 20:46:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi remembered
Message-ID: <1f3.9f0f131.2fbbea69@aol.com>

http://ems.gmnews.com/news/2005/0517/Front_Page/004.html

He shared Thanksgiving dinners with Isaac Asimov and lectured students at 
Harvard. He was a guest twice on "The Johnny Carson Show." All this after he 
managed to survive World War II, flying B-29s over Japan, where many of his own 
crewmates were killed. 

This is the story of John Ciardi
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue May 17 20:58:38 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 20:58:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <ECOWS01McVeuuLt3StB0009251f@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <018001c55b44$ba643400$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Have a go if yr bard enough, mate. Don't quite see how you arrive at the
> conclusion that I'm against visual poetry, however--or are you criticising
> me for being pro-?
>
> :P

No conclusion.  The go would have been against your failing to realize that 
the search for "visual poetry" was on a single website, not the whole 
world-wide web.  But you've been chastised for that, and I hate repeating 
something someone else has already done, even though I'd do it MUCH better 
than Robin did, regardless of what he says!

I wasn't talking about you when I said I only pretend to like visual poetry 
in order to be nasty to those who don't.  That doesn't mean that I can't 
find ways to be nasty to those who do like visual poetry.

--Bob G. 




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 17 21:18:55 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:18:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] stanley kunitz
Message-ID: <1da.3c5bc7e2.2fbbf1ff@aol.com>

I had a wonderful opportunity some years ago to
drive Kunitz from NYC to Farmington CT for a reading
in the Sunken Garden series. He was ninety-something
then. 

Here's a little list that puts his lifespan in perspective...
Some poets who would've been younger than he:
Robt. Penn Warren
Wm. Empson
W.H. Auden
Louis MacNeice
Theodore Roethke
Stephen Spender
Charles Olson
Elizabeth Bishop
Robert Hayden
Muriel Rukeyser
May Swenson
Randall Jarrell
Dylan Thomas
Robert Lowell
Philip Larkin
I stop there...

Here's an idle question for the list:
Would you trade the fame/rep/oeuvre of any one 
of the aforementioned poets for the 10, 20, 30, 40... 
extra years of life that Kunitz got?
Finnegan

In a message dated 5/14/2005 9:37:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Thom424 at aol.com writes:

> Fresh Laurels for a Former Laureate Now approaching 100, Stanley Kunitz 
> does "the best I can with this self, which is quite frail at the moment but is 
> still at my command." 
> 
> Raised by his mother, an immigrant from Lithuania whose husband committed 
> suicide while she was pregnant, the Pulitzer winner published his first 
> collection, *Intellectual Things*, in 1930 and has *The Wild Braid*, about his 
> garden, out this spring. "Poems don't just suddenly come to you. You carry them 
> around for years," he tells Hillel Italie, "but then there comes a time when 
> you feel, 'Ah, that is the one I want to leave behind.'"
> 
> Birthday celebrations include an exhibit at Poet's House and a reading in 
> New York. 
> 
> Related Links: 
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050511/ap_en_ot/books_kunitz_centennial/nc:785 
> http://www.poetshouse.org http://www.poetshouse.org/progcoming.htm#stanley
> 

> 

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From duemer at gmail.com  Tue May 17 21:21:21 2005
From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:21:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <ECOWS01McVeuuLt3StB0009251f@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <00f901c55b27$fe2c3790$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<ECOWS01McVeuuLt3StB0009251f@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e8b111d705051718217007b2a7@mail.gmail.com>

All printed poetry is "visual." We read with our eyes. The way a poem
lies on the page (now there's a nice little pun!) is important in
pentameter & in free verse & in "concrete" modes, to different degrees
in different circumstances. Lots of free verse is composed in what are
basically visual stanzas. But this talk of certain modes being "played
out" is nonsense. That parallelism of the Psalms was played out until
Whitman came along & reinvented it. Thay hymnal meter was dead in the
water until Dickinson got her hands on it. I've been writing &
publishing poetry for 30 years & I just don't get this mad desire to
divide up & form parties. Not that I haven't been a partisan myself in
days gone by. Wisdom of age & all that.

jd



From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 17 21:43:49 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:43:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] stanley kunitz
References: <1da.3c5bc7e2.2fbbf1ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008c01c55b4b$0cf40280$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Jim - this is a great list. Thanks for it.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 9:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] stanley kunitz


  I had a wonderful opportunity some years ago to
  drive Kunitz from NYC to Farmington CT for a reading
  in the Sunken Garden series. He was ninety-something
  then. 

  Here's a little list that puts his lifespan in perspective...
  Some poets who would've been younger than he:
  Robt. Penn Warren
  Wm. Empson
  W.H. Auden
  Louis MacNeice
  Theodore Roethke
  Stephen Spender
  Charles Olson
  Elizabeth Bishop
  Robert Hayden
  Muriel Rukeyser
  May Swenson
  Randall Jarrell
  Dylan Thomas
  Robert Lowell
  Philip Larkin
  I stop there...

  Here's an idle question for the list:
  Would you trade the fame/rep/oeuvre of any one 
  of the aforementioned poets for the 10, 20, 30, 40... 
  extra years of life that Kunitz got?
  Finnegan

  In a message dated 5/14/2005 9:37:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, Thom424 at aol.com writes:


    Fresh Laurels for a Former Laureate Now approaching 100, Stanley Kunitz does "the best I can with this self, which is quite frail at the moment but is still at my command." 

    Raised by his mother, an immigrant from Lithuania whose husband committed suicide while she was pregnant, the Pulitzer winner published his first collection, *Intellectual Things*, in 1930 and has *The Wild Braid*, about his garden, out this spring. "Poems don't just suddenly come to you. You carry them around for years," he tells Hillel Italie, "but then there comes a time when you feel, 'Ah, that is the one I want to leave behind.'"

    Birthday celebrations include an exhibit at Poet's House and a reading in New York. 

    Related Links: 

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050511/ap_en_ot/books_kunitz_centennial/nc:785 
    http://www.poetshouse.org http://www.poetshouse.org/progcoming.htm#stanley







------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 17 22:56:30 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:56:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi remembered
Message-ID: <1c3.28dd3945.2fbc08de@cs.com>

I knew Ciardi slightly, and he was at least 70% bullshit.  It's amazing that 
his children would claim that he was a B-29 pilot when his own published 
memoir is about his experiences as a gunner.

http://www.uark.edu/campus-resources/uaprinfo/public_html/titles/backlist/lite
rature/poetry/ciardi.html#ciardi_saipan
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 17 22:58:33 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:58:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi remembered
Message-ID: <197.3f136dae.2fbc0959@cs.com>

Which, of course, is not to diminish his accomplishments as a poet, 
translator, and man of letters.
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From aburke at iinet.net.au  Wed May 18 06:22:31 2005
From: aburke at iinet.net.au (Andrew Burke)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:22:31 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00ec01c55b93$bd7f8be0$25a53bcb@andrewbu>


> We lack sufficient data to judge.  The main unknown is whether the
publisher
> thought concrete old hat (it isn't--that's a fact) or thought Andrew's
> poetry old hat (we don't know whether it was or not).
>
Well, yes, he thought 'concrete' old hat.

And my concrete poetry then (some ten years ago) was of the 'typewriter'
kind. But it was to go in a Selected so I would have thought some poems from
various periods would've been expected (I've been writing and publishing
since the 60s, btw).

Andrew





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed May 18 06:32:46 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:32:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <00f901c55b27$fe2c3790$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><ECOWS01McVeuuLt3StB0009251f@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>
	<e8b111d705051718217007b2a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c55b94$ef0e33e0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> All printed poetry is "visual." We read with our eyes.
>The way a poem
> lies on the page (now there's a nice little pun!) is important in
> pentameter & in free verse & in "concrete" modes, to different degrees
> in different circumstances. Lots of free verse is composed in what are
> basically visual stanzas. But this talk of certain modes being "played
> out" is nonsense. That parallelism of the Psalms was played out until
> Whitman came along & reinvented it. Thay hymnal meter was dead in the
> water until Dickinson got her hands on it. I've been writing &
> publishing poetry for 30 years & I just don't get this mad desire to
> divide up & form parties. Not that I haven't been a partisan myself in
> days gone by. Wisdom of age & all that.
>
> jd

You say you've published something called "poetry?"  Why do you distinguish 
whatever that is from apple trees?

--Bob G.




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed May 18 06:44:53 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:44:53 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
	<010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin>

[Health Warning: this is going to be a *very* long post, and I suspect the
only person who'll read the whole thing will be Bob Grumman.  The weak of
heart should leave now and no one should feel embarrassed about giving up in
despair part-way through -- the Stone Dormouse.]

> >> Concrete poetry--now called visual poetry by just about everybody in
the field--
> >
> > Well, they may call it so but that don't make it so.

I shouldn't add comments to comments I've already made (bit like
cheating) but I really should have included this initially.  Going back to
the original google search that Peter and I ran, we have 38,000 CP hits,
76,500 VP hits and 913 joint hits.  That means that in the 114,500
situations where concrete poetry or visual poetry are mentioned, they're
only mentioned in the same context *913* times.  Well, that's only google, a
crude tool, and you could argue that on some of the occasions where visual
poetry occurs, concrete poetry will be implicitly included, but that doesn't
work with the concrete-only hits.

I don't think this is just verbal games-playing, Bob, but goes to the heart
of one of our disagreements -- to hold, as you do, that visual poetry
includes concrete poetry implies a continuity between the forms; to argue as
I do that the two terms are distinct implies a (radical) disjunction between
the forms.

> Concrete poetry was poetry in which the visual appearance of a poem's text
> was significant.  It became visual poetry.

Now stop right there.  In the origins of the concrete poetry movement in the
60s, there were two distinct strands -- the strict typographical and the
enhanced typographical.  (I'm making these terms up as I don't know if
there's an accepted way of referring to them -- you know, Bob?)

Strict typographical in this sense would be poetry which while radically
transforming the way "words" are used and laid out, sticks to, crudely, a
single font (and was influenced I imagine by Cummings -- see, Bob, I'm
finally caught-up and am giving Cummings a capital in his name).  For me,
the major exemplar of this would be Edwin Morgan.

This had as a side-effect, the way it was possible to include concrete
poetry in the same volume as line poetry (constraints of printing).  Edwin
Morgan's +The Second Life+ (1968), where much of his concrete poetry first
appears in book form, is an example of this.

Anecdote Warning:  Skip if you hate these.

+The Second Life+ was published in 1968 by Edinburgh University Press and
had the concrete poems printed on different coloured paper from the line
poems.  When I first encountered the book, I thought, "What a terrific
idea!" (and it made for a stunningly attractive physical artefact).  Later
on, Eddie told me that he hadn't *wanted* this -- it had been imposed on him
by his publishers against his wishes, as an attempt to ghetto-ise the
concrete work -- "We're publishing this, but we'd like you to know that we
don't entirely approve of it."  Subsequently, Eddie never made this
distinction between his concrete and line poetry, nor when he reprinted
poems from +The Second Life+.

EndAnecdote

One side-effect of this was that it was easier for strict typography poets
to move into (or back into) line poetry while still incorporating the most
productive elements of concrete poetry after concrete poetry had
crashed&burned.

A slight parallel might be with the Imagist Movement, which flared briefly
and burned out quickly, but where Ezra Pound fed elements of Imagism into
all his subsequent work.

Enhanced typography had big letters, wee letters, different coloured letters
spread every which way over the page, and moved much further away from a
"normal" semantic base.  The obvious example of this would be Ian Hamilton
Finlay.  Also *much* more expensive to print.

(And before anyone accuses me of chauvinism in citing two Scottish poets
working in the sixties as my examples, it's more that I am really blindingly
ignorant in this area, and these are the only two I can refer to with any
remote degree of confidence.)

Edwin Morgan gradually moved further and further back into line poetry, Ian
Hamilton Finlay headed north and began to construct Little Sparta, turning
himself into Scotland's Finest Sculpture (one of the jewels in our cultural
crown) -- but a sculptor, not a poet.

One odd thing (or maybe not, given that it actually is possible to read a
concrete poem aloud, something I simply wouldn't have believed till I heard
Bob Tait and Edwin Morgan do it) was that out of the ashes of concrete
poetry arose sound poetry.  The major exponent of this was Bob Cobbing and
the geographical focus shifted to London and Kurt Schwitters was fed into
the mix.  That's still going strong, expanding and mutating, alive and well
but I guess with a limited audience.  Dunno, unless you're there, physically
in London, it's difficult to work out just what the hell *is* happening.

Confession of special interest (as they say in all the best newspapers).  I
only really seriously used concrete poetry once, as part of a sequence I was
writing across the late 60s / early 70s, +A Notebook for the Beautiful and
the Damned of this Present Age+.

        [google hits on "sound poetry:  26,300]

Enough of sound poetry for the moment, unless Bob wants to pick up on it.

> Many who compose visual poetry
> make a point of claiming not to be concrete poets or to be doing anything
> connected to concrete poetry, but that's silly.

Quite right of them, I'd feel.  Obviously.

[ASIDE:  Just done my obligatory Wednesday Snap for poetryetc.  Here it is:

        Thought for the Day

I had a concrete poet for tea the other day --
       he tasted delicious           ]

> > Odd that so many people are still writing it then.  And writing it well.
>
> Not at all odd.  As I keep saying, you can compose worthwhile poems
without
> doing anything significantly new technically.  New subject-matter, new
> points-of-view, juggling one more ball than anyone else ever has, etc.

Ever since I first encountered your argument around this what seems like
centuries ago now, Bob, I've been trying to put my finger on what bothers
me, and I think I've finally got it -- you seem to be drawing a total
distinction between form and content.

Um ...

I'd argue that it's *impossible* for them *not* to interact -- that the
introduction of new material, persona, whatever into an established form
*inevitably* effects the nature of the form, and shifts it into a new area.
Vice versa, of course -- the introduction of new techniques effects the
content of whatever is being written.  You simply can't separate the two the
way you seem to me to be trying to do.

> > (I'm in the process of rereading Ann Sexton's +The Awful Rowing Towards
> > God+
> > at this moment, and as well as being quite terrifying, there are formal
> > possibilities there that haven't been remotely explored.)
>
> Name one, please.

This question demands a lucid, unequivocal and expansive answer, but do you
*really* expect to get one, Bob?

(I'll keep this in mind, and when I've finished rereading Awful Rowing -- 
which I should be doing at this moment rather than typing this interminable
post -- come back on this, either publicly with an answer or backchannel to
Bob admitting I don't have an answer.)

But ...

In the mid-seventies, I was working on a sequence called "The Jenny Poems"
and was almost finished when I found myself blocked --stuck, deadended,
gobsmacked, you name it.  I kind-of knew that what I needed was some sort of
formal element that I couldn't quite put my finger on.  As one does in such
situations, I was glumly wandering up and down the poetry shelves of the
local library kicking out with frustration when out fell a copy of +The
Awful Rowing Towards God+.  I picked it up and opened it and ...  BINGO!!!!

I don't think (I hope) what resulted was imitation Ann Sexton, but she sure
as hell gave me the key that unlocked a very specific form/content problem I
had -- no way could I write about what I wanted with the techniques I'd up
to then accumulated.

It was something to do with using lines with no apparent length order but an
underlying coherence.  Vague I know, but the best I can manage at the
moment.  A more coherent answer if&when.

> free verse at first gave more expressive potential to what I call terminal
> line-breaks; that led to initial and internal line-breaks--which was one
of
> the things that led to "liberated text-placement," a key feature of all
> visual poetry.  (ad hoc term)

That's, I think, part of what I'm seeing in Sexton -- a more extreme use of
line break than in most free verse.

> > that whatever
> > objections you level against free verse, Bob, to suggest that it's
> > "already
> > played out" (K, you didn't quite say that but you implied it) is a bit
> > weak.
>
> technically played out.

See above, re the form/content distinction

> > But I just can't buy the image of a slavering band of visual young turk
> > poets taking over the verbal universe.
>
> Who is trying to sell it to you?

Ah, I know -- just couldn't resist the image, unfair or not.  <g>

> > Never worked, never will.  There's a final court of appeal (as well as
the
> > test of time) and you can't get round it.
> >
> > EndRant
>
> Right--but my problem is with the people between my kind of poetry and
that
> final court of appeal.

... Yeah, but now there's the Web -- you can leapfrog the established modes
and communicate direct with your public.  And surely the Web would suit
visual poetry and mathemateku and the rest better than conventional print
media?

I think you're just a little trying to have your cake and eat it too, Bob.

FINIS

And my apologies for the length of this -- if I'd tried to make it shorter,
it would have ended up longer.

        The Stone Dormouse




From Thom424 at aol.com  Wed May 18 08:14:13 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:14:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] graham, jorie, not david...
Message-ID: <f5.51a6497e.2fbc8b95@aol.com>

 BOOK REVIEW DESK ON POETRY; Jorie Graham, Superstar
 By DAVID ORR
Published: April 24, 2005, Sunday. The New York Times Book Review.

IN the cloistered world of American poetry, the revolutions are never 
televised -- which can make them awfully hard to distinguish from coups d'?tat. For 
the average reader, nothing is likely to demonstrate this peculiar phenomenon 
so much as the delicate, secretive, enigmatic process through which a 
contemporary poetic reputation is consummated (or if you prefer, ''attained''). One 
day, the poetry fan is dozing under a tree with Elizabeth Bishop's ''Collected 
Poems'' on his lap; the next thing he knows, the road signs have been changed, 
the post office is now a Banana Republic, and the name of a new Major Poet has 
been quietly etched into the stones of Parnassus -- or at any rate, into the 
syllabuses of a thousand M.F.A. programs.

If the current state of affairs is any guide, there's a good chance the name 
writ therein will be ''Jorie Graham.'' Graham is a burnished idol of the 
poetry world, having at 54 already pulled off the trifecta of American verse: (1) a 
major prize (the Pulitzer); (2) a longtime faculty position at the Iowa 
Writers' Workshop, the Death Star of the modern M.F.A. system; and (3) an 
appointment at one of the Ivies (in this case Harvard, where Graham now occupies a seat 
previously held by the Nobel laureate Seamus Heaney). She's gotten breat
hless, full-profile attention from The New Yorker, been given a ''genius grant'' by 
the MacArthur Foundation and received several ardent reviews -- including 
one-third of a book -- from her Harvard colleague Helen Vendler, widely 
considered to be the most influential poetry critic of the past half-century. Graham 
would seem to be, as they say, ''made.''


But what kind of making goes into being ''made''? While the items on Graham's 
r?sum? are impressive, they weren't bestowed by Apollo; they were handed out 
by regular old human beings, often working in regular old committees. And 
committees of poets and critics, like committees of pretty much everyone else, are 
usually less inclined to go for broke than split the difference. At present, 
American poetry is a fractured discipline -- part profession, part gaggle of 
coteries, part contest hustle. Its mind may dwell in the vale of soul-making, 
but its common sense is aiming for the Lorna Snootbat Second Book Prize. Above 
all, as primarily an academic art, poetry is subject to the same insecurities 
riddling the humanities in general, in particular the fear of being 
insufficiently ''serious'' or ''useful.''

In this uncertain atmosphere, Graham is a uniter, not a divider. For one 
thing, she's nice. In interviews, Graham comes off as kindhearted and eager to 
praise -- the sort of person you'd want as a colleague or mentor. She has 
friendly words for avant-gardists like Susan Howe; friendly words for formalists like 
Anthony Hecht; and friendly words for her tribe of former students (''I love 
all of them,'' she says, and it must be true, because they show up with 
remarkable frequency as winners of the many contests she judges). Moreover, as 
Shelley might say, if Graham fell upon the thorns of life, she'd blurb. A typical 
Graham book plug is so rhapsodic and inscrutable (one blurbee has ''an ear so 
finely tuned it cannot but register all the finest, filamentary truths the eye 
discerns'') that it practically yodels Poooeeetrrry! Which doesn't mean she's 
insincere. As Graham puts it, ''There are very few poets whose work doesn't, 
someplace in its enterprise, stun me.'' Poooeeetrrry!

So Graham appeals because she doesn't look for trouble in a field that's 
already troubled enough. And of course, it helps to have the blessings of the 
major institutional powers of the poetry world. Nor does it hurt -- anywhere -- to 
have good looks, sophistication and elite connections (profiles of Graham 
inevitably involve ''E! True Hollywood'' sentences like this one from Harvard 
Magazine: ''The poet's youth was almost impossibly glamorous and romantic''). But 
more than anything else, Graham has succeeded because of the kind of poetry 
she writes.

Graham's work combines two qualities not generally found together -- first, 
it's often sumptuously ''poetic'' (''in a scintillant fold the fabric of the 
daylight bending''); second, it's ostentatiously thinky (typical titles: ''Notes 
on the Reality of the Self,'' ''What Is Called Thinking,'' ''Relativity: A 
Quartet''). The former quality appeals to lovers of operatic lyricism; the 
latter quality not only pleases certain parts of poetry's largely academic 
audience, but it soothes the art form's nagging status anxiety (anything involving 
this much Heidegger must be important). When Graham writes well, her rich, quirky 
phrasing complements her penchant for abstraction. ''I Watched a Snake,'' for 
instance, is filled with airy poeticisms like ''a mending / of the visible / 
by the invisible,'' but it's also a pretty good poem about looking at a snake.

Still, there's always been something strangely bleary in Graham's writing -- 
as if she's just noticed something interesting and motioned the reader over, 
only to stand in his light, blocking his view with her own viewing. This 
tendency has become more pronounced as Graham has grown older; in recent books, she 
achieves an arty vagueness that has to be (barely) seen to be believed (from 
''Swarm'': ''Explain requited / Explain indeed the blood of your lives I will 
require / explain the strange weight of meanwhile''). Curiously, this soft spot 
in Graham's art probably works to her political advantage. She began by writi
ng tight, short-lined free verse; now she writes sprawling, long-lined free 
verse; along the way, she's tried out about 15 different styles. Whatever you do 
as a poet, it'd be hard to say that Graham absolutely rejects it.

In her new collection, OVERLORD: Poems (Ecco/HarperCollins, $22.95), Graham 
takes a gamble and tackles a straight subject. The book is largely a meditation 
on the current political atmosphere as filtered through World War II; the 
poet's general sense is that we're in big trouble. ''Overlord'' has some 
interesting poems, most notably the handful that closely track the experiences of 
veterans, and the collection as a whole is comprehensible, lyrical and obviously 
heartfelt. But it's also sadly diffuse. Consider the beginning of ''Praying 
(Attempt of April 19 '04)'': ''If I could shout but I must not shout. / The girl 
standing in my doorway yesterday weeping. / In her right hand an updated 
report on global warming.'' Well, at least it's an updated report; you'd hate to 
see her ''weeping'' (instead of plain old ''crying'') over last Tuesday's 
version. The poem continues in this hopped-up manner until finally plunging into 
Harvard Yard street preachin': ''Let the dream of contagion / set loose its 
virus. Don't let her turn away. / I, here, today, am letting her cry out the 
figures, the scenarios, / am letting her wave her downloaded pages / into this 
normal office-air between us.'' Putting aside the redundancies (''contagion'' and 
''virus''?), the infelicities (''downloaded pages''?) and the cartoon setup 
(whoever ''the girl'' is, she sure needs to toughen up before she goes to camp), 
putting all of this aside -- what are these lines about? Generalized angst? 
Adobe Acrobat?

The point isn't that Graham's a bad poet -- she's not -- but rather that the 
fogginess that has been a chronic problem in her work becomes especially 
inhibiting in ''Overlord'' because, well, there's just no leeway for muddling. 
Graham is trying to write here in response to actual events in a full lyric voice 
and in a public manner. It's a worthy project. But this isn't the kind of 
challenge that can be bowled over with rhetoric, analyzed into submission or 
conquered with good intentions. In the achingly clich?d ''Posterity,'' for 
instance, Graham attempts to feed a homeless man chicken out of an aluminum wrapper 
while calling on ''Buber, Kafka, Dr. Robinson -- you, hunger specialists'' (but 
what about Colonel Sanders?) -- and somehow she burns the guy's hands. 
Unfortunately, that sententious, well-meaning blunder is ''Overlord'' in a nutshell; 
or rather, some tinfoil.

So have we gotten a little ahead of ourselves in appointing our Major Poets? 
If we think such writers should embody their times, then maybe not: the haze 
at the center of Graham's work neatly reflects the current confusion and 
fragmentation of American poetry. But if we think a Major Poet is meant to be more 
than this, then maybe we should be arguing over these matters more often -- and 
more publicly. Because if the books the poetry world leaves in the laps of 
its slumbering audience are compromises rather than necessities, isn't it likely 
that readers will wake only to rub their eyes, thumb a few pages, sigh and go 
right back to sleep again?

Published: 04 - 24 - 2005 , Late Edition - Final , Section 7 , Column 1 , 
Page 15
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 18 09:19:03 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:19:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] graham, jorie, not david...
References: <f5.51a6497e.2fbc8b95@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003601c55bac$2c16c740$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Well, let's see how it looks.

BOOK REVIEW DESK ON POETRY; David Graham, Superstar


Yeah, that has a certain ring to it...



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Thom424 at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 8:14 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] graham, jorie, not david...


  BOOK REVIEW DESK ON POETRY; Jorie Graham, Superstar
  By DAVID ORR
  Published: April 24, 2005, Sunday. The New York Times Book Review.

  IN the cloistered world of American poetry, the revolutions are never televised -- which can make them awfully hard to distinguish from coups d'?tat. For the average reader, nothing is likely to demonstrate this peculiar phenomenon so much as the delicate, secretive, enigmatic process through which a contemporary poetic reputation is consummated (or if you prefer, ''attained''). One day, the poetry fan is dozing under a tree with Elizabeth Bishop's ''Collected Poems'' on his lap; the next thing he knows, the road signs have been changed, the post office is now a Banana Republic, and the name of a new Major Poet has been quietly etched into the stones of Parnassus -- or at any rate, into the syllabuses of a thousand M.F.A. programs.

  If the current state of affairs is any guide, there's a good chance the name writ therein will be ''Jorie Graham.'' Graham is a burnished idol of the poetry world, having at 54 already pulled off the trifecta of American verse: (1) a major prize (the Pulitzer); (2) a longtime faculty position at the Iowa Writers' Workshop, the Death Star of the modern M.F.A. system; and (3) an appointment at one of the Ivies (in this case Harvard, where Graham now occupies a seat previously held by the Nobel laureate Seamus Heaney). She's gotten breathless, full-profile attention from The New Yorker, been given a ''genius grant'' by the MacArthur Foundation and received several ardent reviews -- including one-third of a book -- from her Harvard colleague Helen Vendler, widely considered to be the most influential poetry critic of the past half-century. Graham would seem to be, as they say, ''made.''


  But what kind of making goes into being ''made''? While the items on Graham's r?sum? are impressive, they weren't bestowed by Apollo; they were handed out by regular old human beings, often working in regular old committees. And committees of poets and critics, like committees of pretty much everyone else, are usually less inclined to go for broke than split the difference. At present, American poetry is a fractured discipline -- part profession, part gaggle of coteries, part contest hustle. Its mind may dwell in the vale of soul-making, but its common sense is aiming for the Lorna Snootbat Second Book Prize. Above all, as primarily an academic art, poetry is subject to the same insecurities riddling the humanities in general, in particular the fear of being insufficiently ''serious'' or ''useful.''

  In this uncertain atmosphere, Graham is a uniter, not a divider. For one thing, she's nice. In interviews, Graham comes off as kindhearted and eager to praise -- the sort of person you'd want as a colleague or mentor. She has friendly words for avant-gardists like Susan Howe; friendly words for formalists like Anthony Hecht; and friendly words for her tribe of former students (''I love all of them,'' she says, and it must be true, because they show up with remarkable frequency as winners of the many contests she judges). Moreover, as Shelley might say, if Graham fell upon the thorns of life, she'd blurb. A typical Graham book plug is so rhapsodic and inscrutable (one blurbee has ''an ear so finely tuned it cannot but register all the finest, filamentary truths the eye discerns'') that it practically yodels Poooeeetrrry! Which doesn't mean she's insincere. As Graham puts it, ''There are very few poets whose work doesn't, someplace in its enterprise, stun me.'' Poooeeetrrry!

  So Graham appeals because she doesn't look for trouble in a field that's already troubled enough. And of course, it helps to have the blessings of the major institutional powers of the poetry world. Nor does it hurt -- anywhere -- to have good looks, sophistication and elite connections (profiles of Graham inevitably involve ''E! True Hollywood'' sentences like this one from Harvard Magazine: ''The poet's youth was almost impossibly glamorous and romantic''). But more than anything else, Graham has succeeded because of the kind of poetry she writes.

  Graham's work combines two qualities not generally found together -- first, it's often sumptuously ''poetic'' (''in a scintillant fold the fabric of the daylight bending''); second, it's ostentatiously thinky (typical titles: ''Notes on the Reality of the Self,'' ''What Is Called Thinking,'' ''Relativity: A Quartet''). The former quality appeals to lovers of operatic lyricism; the latter quality not only pleases certain parts of poetry's largely academic audience, but it soothes the art form's nagging status anxiety (anything involving this much Heidegger must be important). When Graham writes well, her rich, quirky phrasing complements her penchant for abstraction. ''I Watched a Snake,'' for instance, is filled with airy poeticisms like ''a mending / of the visible / by the invisible,'' but it's also a pretty good poem about looking at a snake.

  Still, there's always been something strangely bleary in Graham's writing -- as if she's just noticed something interesting and motioned the reader over, only to stand in his light, blocking his view with her own viewing. This tendency has become more pronounced as Graham has grown older; in recent books, she achieves an arty vagueness that has to be (barely) seen to be believed (from ''Swarm'': ''Explain requited / Explain indeed the blood of your lives I will require / explain the strange weight of meanwhile''). Curiously, this soft spot in Graham's art probably works to her political advantage. She began by writing tight, short-lined free verse; now she writes sprawling, long-lined free verse; along the way, she's tried out about 15 different styles. Whatever you do as a poet, it'd be hard to say that Graham absolutely rejects it.

  In her new collection, OVERLORD: Poems (Ecco/HarperCollins, $22.95), Graham takes a gamble and tackles a straight subject. The book is largely a meditation on the current political atmosphere as filtered through World War II; the poet's general sense is that we're in big trouble. ''Overlord'' has some interesting poems, most notably the handful that closely track the experiences of veterans, and the collection as a whole is comprehensible, lyrical and obviously heartfelt. But it's also sadly diffuse. Consider the beginning of ''Praying (Attempt of April 19 '04)'': ''If I could shout but I must not shout. / The girl standing in my doorway yesterday weeping. / In her right hand an updated report on global warming.'' Well, at least it's an updated report; you'd hate to see her ''weeping'' (instead of plain old ''crying'') over last Tuesday's version. The poem continues in this hopped-up manner until finally plunging into Harvard Yard street preachin': ''Let the dream of contagion / set loose its virus. Don't let her turn away. / I, here, today, am letting her cry out the figures, the scenarios, / am letting her wave her downloaded pages / into this normal office-air between us.'' Putting aside the redundancies (''contagion'' and ''virus''?), the infelicities (''downloaded pages''?) and the cartoon setup (whoever ''the girl'' is, she sure needs to toughen up before she goes to camp), putting all of this aside -- what are these lines about? Generalized angst? Adobe Acrobat?

  The point isn't that Graham's a bad poet -- she's not -- but rather that the fogginess that has been a chronic problem in her work becomes especially inhibiting in ''Overlord'' because, well, there's just no leeway for muddling. Graham is trying to write here in response to actual events in a full lyric voice and in a public manner. It's a worthy project. But this isn't the kind of challenge that can be bowled over with rhetoric, analyzed into submission or conquered with good intentions. In the achingly clich?d ''Posterity,'' for instance, Graham attempts to feed a homeless man chicken out of an aluminum wrapper while calling on ''Buber, Kafka, Dr. Robinson -- you, hunger specialists'' (but what about Colonel Sanders?) -- and somehow she burns the guy's hands. Unfortunately, that sententious, well-meaning blunder is ''Overlord'' in a nutshell; or rather, some tinfoil.

  So have we gotten a little ahead of ourselves in appointing our Major Poets? If we think such writers should embody their times, then maybe not: the haze at the center of Graham's work neatly reflects the current confusion and fragmentation of American poetry. But if we think a Major Poet is meant to be more than this, then maybe we should be arguing over these matters more often -- and more publicly. Because if the books the poetry world leaves in the laps of its slumbering audience are compromises rather than necessities, isn't it likely that readers will wake only to rub their eyes, thumb a few pages, sigh and go right back to sleep again?

  Published: 04 - 24 - 2005 , Late Edition - Final , Section 7 , Column 1 , Page 15
  ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

  thom tammaro
  moorhead, mn 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Wed May 18 11:39:13 2005
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:39:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi Remembered
Message-ID: <200505181540.j4IFexl3023942@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your file: NEW-POET NOTE of: 05/18 08:20:37 ***************
Sam Gwynn wrote
>>I knew Ciardi slightly, and he was at least 70% bullshit.  It's amazing that
>>his children would claim that he was a B-29 pilot when his own published
>>memoir is about his experiences as a gunner.

This doesn't make sense Sam.  How is he bullshit if his memoir contradicts
what his children claim?  Maybe his kids are.  Or maybe they're just
mistaken.  Why don't you be nice?

Richard


From uche at ogbuji.net  Wed May 18 11:43:18 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:43:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
	<00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
	<001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <1116430998.1829.230.camel@malatesta>

On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 22:42 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> Because there's that final court -- the public, the people who read our work
> (and they still exist outside the chartered hells of academe where the
> impressionable young are force-fed texts like geese fattened for pate).
> 
> All seems a bit to me like a politician who's lost an election suggesting
> that we dissolve the public and elect another one.
> 
> Never worked, never will.  There's a final court of appeal (as well as the
> test of time) and you can't get round it.

Hmm.  In this court, no one can claim any vindication.  Not enough of
the public is engaged to draw any reasonable determination of the party
whose claims have been upheld.

In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
that have helped drive away a lot of the public, but I readily admit
that there are any number of counter-claims to this idea (Note: I'm not
fundamentally opposed to free verse, but I do believe, as many other do,
that the supposed freedom has become nothing more than a license to
break mediocre prose into lines, with a few verbal flourishes sprinkled
in for supposed effect.  I'm not sure what to think of concrete poetry.
I just don't get it.)

I am pretty confident that it's not the supposed anti-intellectualism of
the public that is the problem.  The public keeps well engaged in
intellectual discourse that its finds attractive, and the potential
audience for any philosophical (using the word in its broadest sense)
venture is greater than it has ever been.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 18 12:00:27 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:00:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
	<1116430998.1829.230.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <008801c55bc2$b8677c60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re:

In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
that have helped drive away a lot of the public

That's not necessarily a condemnation. Charlie Parker drove a lot of the 
public away from jazz, but it would hard to argue that he was bad for jazz, 
American music, or American culture.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 22:42 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>
>> Because there's that final court -- the public, the people who read our 
>> work
>> (and they still exist outside the chartered hells of academe where the
>> impressionable young are force-fed texts like geese fattened for pate).
>>
>> All seems a bit to me like a politician who's lost an election suggesting
>> that we dissolve the public and elect another one.
>>
>> Never worked, never will.  There's a final court of appeal (as well as 
>> the
>> test of time) and you can't get round it.
>
> Hmm.  In this court, no one can claim any vindication.  Not enough of
> the public is engaged to draw any reasonable determination of the party
> whose claims have been upheld.
>
> In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
> that have helped drive away a lot of the public, but I readily admit
> that there are any number of counter-claims to this idea (Note: I'm not
> fundamentally opposed to free verse, but I do believe, as many other do,
> that the supposed freedom has become nothing more than a license to
> break mediocre prose into lines, with a few verbal flourishes sprinkled
> in for supposed effect.  I'm not sure what to think of concrete poetry.
> I just don't get it.)
>
> I am pretty confident that it's not the supposed anti-intellectualism of
> the public that is the problem.  The public keeps well engaged in
> intellectual discourse that its finds attractive, and the potential
> audience for any philosophical (using the word in its broadest sense)
> venture is greater than it has ever been.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 18 12:03:09 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:03:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi Remembered
Message-ID: <149.453e883e.2fbcc13d@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/18/2005 10:45:18 AM Central Daylight Time, 
DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com writes: 
> Sam Gwynn wrote
> >>I knew Ciardi slightly, and he was at least 70% bullshit.  It's amazing 
> that
> >>his children would claim that he was a B-29 pilot when his own published
> >>memoir is about his experiences as a gunner.
> 
> This doesn't make sense Sam.  How is he bullshit if his memoir contradicts
> what his children claim?  Maybe his kids are.  Or maybe they're just
> mistaken.  Why don't you be nice?
> 
Kind of like Dickey's claims to have been a pilot, which his sons (and lots 
of other folks) believed until they learned better.  Saipan, I believe, was 
posthumously published, which may account for the discrepancy.

He was a good poet and lots of people loved him.  But I was at Bread Loaf 
twice and saw him close up when he was Lord of the Manor there.  Ed Cifelli's 
biography goes into a lot of that.

I didn't mean any disrespect to his memory, but he was pretty full of it.  
One of my happiest moments is when I got into a bridge game with him.  He was 
playing with an inexperienced partner, bid three no trump, and we set him about 
five tricks.  He threw down the cards and stomped out of the barn.  

His generosity to his thanes was large.
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed May 18 12:03:29 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:03:29 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
	<1116430998.1829.230.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <019401c55bc3$22a81bc0$44169c51@Robin>

From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>

> > Never worked, never will.  There's a final court of appeal (as well as
the
> > test of time) and you can't get round it.
>
> Hmm.  In this court, no one can claim any vindication.  Not enough of
> the public is engaged to draw any reasonable determination of the party
> whose claims have been upheld.

I'd agree, the concept of "the public" needs unteasing, and I was using it
very crudely.  Even "the general reader" doesn't quite work, as only a
minority of these read poetry (now).  But I'm not up to it now ...

> In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
> that have helped drive away a lot of the public, but I readily admit
> that there are any number of counter-claims to this idea

I don't think (at least in the UK) that concrete poetry was a factor in this
area -- simply never had that much of a wide impact.

Free verse is a different matter, and here we're up against two problems -- 
which free verse and when free verse?

"Free verse" can mean so many things (and having just spent two hours
immersed in Ann Sexton, I'm reluctant to describe her work in any such crude
terms as that.  Though what I *would* call it is another matter ...

Then free verse with Eliot and Pound versus free verse today ...

I don't think free verse *itself* puts "the public" off -- modernism and
after is, I think, another matter.

> (Note: I'm not
> fundamentally opposed to free verse, but I do believe, as many other do,
> that the supposed freedom has become nothing more than a license to
> break mediocre prose into lines, with a few verbal flourishes sprinkled
> in for supposed effect.

Well, that very point was made by Ezra Pound way back in was it 1920?

> I'm not sure what to think of concrete poetry.
> I just don't get it.)

Some good, some bad, varies between pretty pictures and verbal games.  Pace
Bob Grumman, not essential.  I find it easier to get my head around than
John Ashbery, say.  But then I grew up with it.

> I am pretty confident that it's not the supposed anti-intellectualism of
> the public that is the problem.  The public keeps well engaged in
> intellectual discourse that its finds attractive, and the potential
> audience for any philosophical (using the word in its broadest sense)
> venture is greater than it has ever been.

Point.  So why is poetry excluded?

That's the best I can manage at the moment Uche, as my brain is currently
mush.

Robin




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed May 18 12:05:25 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:05:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi remembered
References: <197.3f136dae.2fbc0959@cs.com>
Message-ID: <008201c55bc3$679a4140$85ad3452@ANNY>

It does limit his personality, and consequently his accomplishments.  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 4:58 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ciardi remembered


  Which, of course, is not to diminish his accomplishments as a poet, translator, and man of letters. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed May 18 12:20:05 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:20:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <1116430998.1829.230.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <BEB0D565.121F9%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/18/05 10:43 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:

> In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
> that have helped drive away a lot of the public, but I readily admit
> that there are any number of counter-claims to this idea (Note: I'm not
> fundamentally opposed to free verse, but I do believe, as many other do,
> that the supposed freedom has become nothing more than a license to
> break mediocre prose into lines, with a few verbal flourishes sprinkled
> in for supposed effect.


Time to run this tired horse around the track a few more laps?

Very quickly summarizing:  it's certainly true that there are
counter-claims.  In fact, every assumption or claim above remains in hot
dispute.  Is poetry readership in decline?  As compared to what?  Anyone
have actual numbers?  Given population increase and shifting demographics of
readership, measuring such things seems tricky at best.

If something "drove" the public away from poetry, how *would* one identify
the culprit(s), exactly?  If free verse, for example, is part of the
problem, wouldn't the grateful public be flocking to buy books by Paul Lake
and R. S. Gwynn and Annie Finch rather than, say, Lucille Clifton or Jane
Kenyon?  Wouldn't W. H. Auden have outsold Carl Sandburg in 1955?  Wouldn't
Hecht have outsold Sexton in 1980?  Wouldn't Richard Wilbur now sell more
than Billy Collins?   Well, one could say that Frost always outsold Williams
or Pound, and that's a good point--but were readers mostly attracted to
Frost's iambics and his rhymes, or something else?  Etc.

One of the signal changes that I see over the past 100 years has to do with
the modernist revolution, and the accompanying high value placed on
difficulty as a chief poetic value.  Accordingly, in contrast to the usual
free- vs. metrical verse face-off, I tend to see a much more significant
split between difficult and accessible.

Whether the modernist legacy is good, bad or mixed depends upon your
aesthetics, among other things, but it seems sort of obvious that the common
reader who might have enjoyed a bit of Longfellow or some of the tamer bits
of Whitman in 1895 will likely not be reading Clark Coolidge or Jorie Graham
today.  

Rather, the common reader today will likely pick up anthologies such as
Keillor's *Good Poems* or Collins's *Poetry 180* --both including metrical
verse but not dominated by it--in search of poems both flavorful and
accessible to ordinary concerns of the day.

I suspect (who could ever prove it?) that people liked Frost as much for his
sentiments and his stories as for his rhymes.  Which is one reason he always
competed at the cash register with that other folksy voice, Sandburg--and
one reason he took great pains to disguise his own difficulty as a poet.  In
other words, I think that bundling the formal question together with other
things can be problematic.

Of course, I have no statistics to cite, either, though the relative sales
figures of Keillor vs. Silliman or Wilbur vs. Collins ought to be obvious.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From mandolin at mac.com  Wed May 18 12:37:58 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:37:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <BEB0D565.121F9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEB0D565.121F9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <1679831.1116434278277.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 12:22PM, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

>on 5/18/05 10:43 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:
>
>> In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
>> that have helped drive away a lot of the public, but I readily admit
>> that there are any number of counter-claims to this idea (Note: I'm not
>> fundamentally opposed to free verse, but I do believe, as many other do,
>> that the supposed freedom has become nothing more than a license to
>> break mediocre prose into lines, with a few verbal flourishes sprinkled
>> in for supposed effect.
>
>
>Time to run this tired horse around the track a few more laps?
>
>Very quickly summarizing:  it's certainly true that there are
>counter-claims.  In fact, every assumption or claim above remains in hot
>dispute.  Is poetry readership in decline?  As compared to what?  Anyone
>have actual numbers?  Given population increase and shifting demographics of
>readership, measuring such things seems tricky at best.
>
>If something "drove" the public away from poetry, how *would* one identify
>the culprit(s), exactly?  If free verse, for example, is part of the
>problem, wouldn't the grateful public be flocking to buy books by Paul Lake
>and R. S. Gwynn and Annie Finch rather than, say, Lucille Clifton or Jane
>Kenyon?  Wouldn't W. H. Auden have outsold Carl Sandburg in 1955?  Wouldn't
>Hecht have outsold Sexton in 1980?  Wouldn't Richard Wilbur now sell more
>than Billy Collins?   Well, one could say that Frost always outsold Williams
>or Pound, and that's a good point--but were readers mostly attracted to
>Frost's iambics and his rhymes, or something else?  Etc.
>
>One of the signal changes that I see over the past 100 years has to do with
>the modernist revolution, and the accompanying high value placed on
>difficulty as a chief poetic value.  Accordingly, in contrast to the usual
>free- vs. metrical verse face-off, I tend to see a much more significant
>split between difficult and accessible.
>
>Whether the modernist legacy is good, bad or mixed depends upon your
>aesthetics, among other things, but it seems sort of obvious that the common
>reader who might have enjoyed a bit of Longfellow or some of the tamer bits
>of Whitman in 1895 will likely not be reading Clark Coolidge or Jorie Graham
>today.  
>
>Rather, the common reader today will likely pick up anthologies such as
>Keillor's *Good Poems* or Collins's *Poetry 180* --both including metrical
>verse but not dominated by it--in search of poems both flavorful and
>accessible to ordinary concerns of the day.
>
>I suspect (who could ever prove it?) that people liked Frost as much for his
>sentiments and his stories as for his rhymes.  Which is one reason he always
>competed at the cash register with that other folksy voice, Sandburg--and
>one reason he took great pains to disguise his own difficulty as a poet.  In
>other words, I think that bundling the formal question together with other
>things can be problematic.
>
>Of course, I have no statistics to cite, either, though the relative sales
>figures of Keillor vs. Silliman or Wilbur vs. Collins ought to be obvious.
>
>

David, I agree with almost all of this, maybe all if by "his sentiments and his stories" in Frost you mean that they were there and clearly stated and not that they were in their nature congenial to readers.  Both are actually pretty bleak. 


Mike S.
-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed May 18 12:47:32 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:47:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <1679831.1116434278277.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BEB0DBD4.12200%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/18/05 11:37 AM, Mike Snider at mandolin at mac.com wrote:

> David, I agree with almost all of this, maybe all if by "his sentiments and
> his stories" in Frost you mean that they were there and clearly stated and not
> that they were in their nature congenial to readers.  Both are actually pretty
> bleak. 
> 
> 
> Mike S.
> -----

Yes, Frost was not all that uplifting, if read aright.  But one complication
was that Frost in public performance tended to adopt the folksy ironic
persona, which tended to disguise his own bleakness, at least for
inattentive listeners.  Such listeners were not, of course, limited to the
common reader:  many professed literature by trade.

So when Lionel Trilling stated the obvious in that famous late-1950s speech
about Frost's tragic side, it took some readers aback.  In any case, despite
Frost's occasional williness to play yokel on the podium, he was a very
great, very accessible poet, yes indeed.  In my own opinion--and here's
another argument ready to flame up--there was no better poet to come out of
the 20th century.  

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Wed May 18 12:59:43 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:59:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi remembered
Message-ID: <d2.29095323.2fbcce7f@aol.com>

Don't confuse the man in real life with theman on hte page. That's the  
problem of too much literary judgement these days, this notion that if a guy  
cheats on his taxes, his wife, kicks his dog etc. then he can't be a good or  great 
poet. Absolute poppycock (I'm trying to be polite here). 
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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed May 18 13:15:08 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:15:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <BEB0DBD4.12200%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEB0DBD4.12200%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <6839016.1116436509140.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 12:49PM, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

>on 5/18/05 11:37 AM, Mike Snider at mandolin at mac.com wrote:
>
>> David, I agree with almost all of this, maybe all if by "his sentiments and
>> his stories" in Frost you mean that they were there and clearly stated and not
>> that they were in their nature congenial to readers.  Both are actually pretty
>> bleak. 
>> 
>> 
>> Mike S.
>> -----
>
>Yes, Frost was not all that uplifting, if read aright.  But one complication
>was that Frost in public performance tended to adopt the folksy ironic
>persona, which tended to disguise his own bleakness, at least for
>inattentive listeners.  Such listeners were not, of course, limited to the
>common reader:  many professed literature by trade.
>

Yeah, "The Road Not Taken" still gets used at commencements as if the last two lines could be taken at face-value when he's just finished saying that it's just the tale he'll tell despite there having been no real difference between the roads.

>So when Lionel Trilling stated the obvious in that famous late-1950s speech
>about Frost's tragic side, it took some readers aback.  In any case, despite
>Frost's occasional williness to play yokel on the podium, he was a very
>great, very accessible poet, yes indeed.  In my own opinion--and here's
>another argument ready to flame up--there was no better poet to come out of
>the 20th century.  
>

No argument from me. I think his only real rival was Yeats, and you have to ignore too much lunacy in him. 

Mike S

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From uche at ogbuji.net  Wed May 18 13:23:30 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:23:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <008801c55bc2$b8677c60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
	<00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
	<001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
	<1116430998.1829.230.camel@malatesta>
	<008801c55bc2$b8677c60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1116437010.1829.238.camel@malatesta>

Uche:

> In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
> that have helped drive away a lot of the public

The Old Mole:

> That's not necessarily a condemnation. Charlie Parker drove a lot of the 
> public away from jazz, but it would hard to argue that he was bad for jazz, 
> American music, or American culture.

I think there's a huge difference in scale.  The drop in audience from
the big band era to the bebop era is a lot less drastic than the drop in
the audience of poetry in the 60s, as I reckon.

With the advent of fusion, Jazz secured a very strong, if overall
minority audience, and a much greater proportion of Jazz musicians these
days can make a good living from the art than of poets.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed May 18 13:37:53 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:37:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi Remembered
References: <200505181540.j4IFexl3023942@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c55bd0$527c9a30$d20d9942@Helen>

During Natl. Poetry Month I send a poem a day to faculty and staff -
and the only poem that's been requested every year is
"On Flunking A Nice Boy Out of School"
by Ciardi

He did speak to a class I was in once and other than
his double breasted pin striped suit all I remember
is that he quoted large sections of poetry anytime anyone
asked him a question -
h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 11:39 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi Remembered


> ***** Reply to your file: NEW-POET NOTE of: 05/18 08:20:37 ***************
> Sam Gwynn wrote
>>>I knew Ciardi slightly, and he was at least 70% bullshit.  It's amazing 
>>>that
>>>his children would claim that he was a B-29 pilot when his own published
>>>memoir is about his experiences as a gunner.
>
> This doesn't make sense Sam.  How is he bullshit if his memoir contradicts
> what his children claim?  Maybe his kids are.  Or maybe they're just
> mistaken.  Why don't you be nice?
>
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Wed May 18 13:48:00 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:48:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] ciardi poem
Message-ID: <fa.1375864a.2fbcd9d0@aol.com>

in case anyone is interested in the ciardi poem helen mentioned:?



On Flunking A Nice Boy Out of School 

by John Ciardi

I wish I could teach you how ugly
decency and humility can be when they are not
the election of a contained mind but only
the defenses of an incompetent. Were you taught
meekness as a weapon? Or did you discover,
by chance maybe, that it worked on mother
and was a good thing?at least when all else failed?to get you over the worst 
of 
what was coming. Is that why you bring
these sheepfaces on Tuesday?

They won't do.
It's three months work I want, and I'd sooner have it
from the brassiest lumpkin in pimpledom, but have it,
than all these martyred repentances from you.

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Wed May 18 13:57:22 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:57:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <BEB0D565.121F9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEB0D565.121F9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <1116439042.1829.255.camel@malatesta>

On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 11:20 -0500, David Graham wrote:
> on 5/18/05 10:43 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:
> 
> > In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
> > that have helped drive away a lot of the public, but I readily admit
> > that there are any number of counter-claims to this idea (Note: I'm not
> > fundamentally opposed to free verse, but I do believe, as many other do,
> > that the supposed freedom has become nothing more than a license to
> > break mediocre prose into lines, with a few verbal flourishes sprinkled
> > in for supposed effect.
> 
> 
> Time to run this tired horse around the track a few more laps?

Not on my account.  I claim ignorance of the history of the topic here,
and I'm happy not to get sucked into an argument of unfathomable
abstraction.

> Very quickly summarizing:  it's certainly true that there are
> counter-claims.  In fact, every assumption or claim above remains in hot
> dispute.  Is poetry readership in decline?  As compared to what?  Anyone
> have actual numbers?  Given population increase and shifting demographics of
> readership, measuring such things seems tricky at best.

Aren't there respectable studies along the lines of these questions?  If
not, what the blazes is poetic academia up to?  <duck>

> If something "drove" the public away from poetry, how *would* one identify
> the culprit(s), exactly?  If free verse, for example, is part of the
> problem, wouldn't the grateful public be flocking to buy books by Paul Lake
> and R. S. Gwynn and Annie Finch rather than, say, Lucille Clifton or Jane
> Kenyon?  Wouldn't W. H. Auden have outsold Carl Sandburg in 1955?

Sandburg tapped into a very rich market: people who wanted to hear
*anything* about fly-over country.  He could have written "ei diddle
diddle, Wausau in the middle" over and over again on the page and
outsold Auden.  Simple demographics.

> Wouldn't
> Hecht have outsold Sexton in 1980?

Sexton tapped into a very rich market: people who were more interested
in the biographical pornography of pop art than int he art itself.  She
could have written "fuck hes, fuck shes, fuck yeah I wanna die" over and
over again on the page and outsold Hecht.  Simple demographics.

I won't go on.  I hope I've made it clear that folks who buy art as part
of fad and spectacle are valid parts of the statistics, but are never by
themselves going to turn mode into median.

> Rather, the common reader today will likely pick up anthologies such as
> Keillor's *Good Poems* or Collins's *Poetry 180* --both including metrical
> verse but not dominated by it--in search of poems both flavorful and
> accessible to ordinary concerns of the day.

They'll buy it, but most will leave it on the mantel as a show piece.
Unfortunate reality.  Interestingly enough, in my experience, when
mainstream folks pop out bits of poetry that they remember and throw it
into the conversation, it's almost always from the metrical tradition.
Just an anecdote, and may say more about my acquaintances than anything
else, but without the rigorous studies you mention, what is there but
anecdote (not that rigorous scientific study is in itself conclusive)?

Anyways, as I said, what of the perma-thread?  I don't care all that
much.  Someone mentioned the court of public opinion, and I threw up my
tuppence.  I think I've spent my savings in that action.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 18 14:10:20 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:10:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
References: <BEB0D565.121F9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<1116439042.1829.255.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <001e01c55bd4$dd410f30$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

>From Uche: Aren't there respectable studies along the lines of these 
questions?  If
not, what the blazes is poetic academia up to?  <duck>


You know, he's right. Are such studies? What the blazes IS poetic academia 
up to? I don't know the answer to either question.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument


> On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 11:20 -0500, David Graham wrote:
>> on 5/18/05 10:43 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:
>>
>> > In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
>> > that have helped drive away a lot of the public, but I readily admit
>> > that there are any number of counter-claims to this idea (Note: I'm not
>> > fundamentally opposed to free verse, but I do believe, as many other 
>> > do,
>> > that the supposed freedom has become nothing more than a license to
>> > break mediocre prose into lines, with a few verbal flourishes sprinkled
>> > in for supposed effect.
>>
>>
>> Time to run this tired horse around the track a few more laps?
>
> Not on my account.  I claim ignorance of the history of the topic here,
> and I'm happy not to get sucked into an argument of unfathomable
> abstraction.
>
>> Very quickly summarizing:  it's certainly true that there are
>> counter-claims.  In fact, every assumption or claim above remains in hot
>> dispute.  Is poetry readership in decline?  As compared to what?  Anyone
>> have actual numbers?  Given population increase and shifting demographics 
>> of
>> readership, measuring such things seems tricky at best.
>
> Aren't there respectable studies along the lines of these questions?  If
> not, what the blazes is poetic academia up to?  <duck>
>
>> If something "drove" the public away from poetry, how *would* one 
>> identify
>> the culprit(s), exactly?  If free verse, for example, is part of the
>> problem, wouldn't the grateful public be flocking to buy books by Paul 
>> Lake
>> and R. S. Gwynn and Annie Finch rather than, say, Lucille Clifton or Jane
>> Kenyon?  Wouldn't W. H. Auden have outsold Carl Sandburg in 1955?
>
> Sandburg tapped into a very rich market: people who wanted to hear
> *anything* about fly-over country.  He could have written "ei diddle
> diddle, Wausau in the middle" over and over again on the page and
> outsold Auden.  Simple demographics.
>
>> Wouldn't
>> Hecht have outsold Sexton in 1980?
>
> Sexton tapped into a very rich market: people who were more interested
> in the biographical pornography of pop art than int he art itself.  She
> could have written "fuck hes, fuck shes, fuck yeah I wanna die" over and
> over again on the page and outsold Hecht.  Simple demographics.
>
> I won't go on.  I hope I've made it clear that folks who buy art as part
> of fad and spectacle are valid parts of the statistics, but are never by
> themselves going to turn mode into median.
>
>> Rather, the common reader today will likely pick up anthologies such as
>> Keillor's *Good Poems* or Collins's *Poetry 180* --both including 
>> metrical
>> verse but not dominated by it--in search of poems both flavorful and
>> accessible to ordinary concerns of the day.
>
> They'll buy it, but most will leave it on the mantel as a show piece.
> Unfortunate reality.  Interestingly enough, in my experience, when
> mainstream folks pop out bits of poetry that they remember and throw it
> into the conversation, it's almost always from the metrical tradition.
> Just an anecdote, and may say more about my acquaintances than anything
> else, but without the rigorous studies you mention, what is there but
> anecdote (not that rigorous scientific study is in itself conclusive)?
>
> Anyways, as I said, what of the perma-thread?  I don't care all that
> much.  Someone mentioned the court of public opinion, and I threw up my
> tuppence.  I think I've spent my savings in that action.
>
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 18 14:31:10 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:31:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><1116430998.1829.230.camel@malatesta><008801c55bc2$b8677c60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1116437010.1829.238.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <002301c55bd7$c62f92f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

This goes back to your other question -- how do we measure such things? I'd 
guess the reverse -- that there was never a time when poetry remotely 
approached the popularity of swing-era jazz.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


> Uche:
>
>> In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
>> that have helped drive away a lot of the public
>
> The Old Mole:
>
>> That's not necessarily a condemnation. Charlie Parker drove a lot of the
>> public away from jazz, but it would hard to argue that he was bad for 
>> jazz,
>> American music, or American culture.
>
> I think there's a huge difference in scale.  The drop in audience from
> the big band era to the bebop era is a lot less drastic than the drop in
> the audience of poetry in the 60s, as I reckon.
>
> With the advent of fusion, Jazz secured a very strong, if overall
> minority audience, and a much greater proportion of Jazz musicians these
> days can make a good living from the art than of poets.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From shkodrov at yahoo.com  Wed May 18 15:15:59 2005
From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:15:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050518191559.80510.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com>

Poetry as a rebel; jazz as an entertainer? (not that the entertainer can't be rebellious, or the rebel entertaining... profit wise this makes sense to me -- rebels speak because they need to; entertainers -- to get what they can for their wits...) no? 

Rosie

The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
This goes back to your other question -- how do we measure such things? I'd 
guess the reverse -- that there was never a time when poetry remotely 
approached the popularity of swing-era jazz.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" 
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" 

Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


> Uche:
>
>> In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
>> that have helped drive away a lot of the public
>
> The Old Mole:
>
>> That's not necessarily a condemnation. Charlie Parker drove a lot of the
>> public away from jazz, but it would hard to argue that he was bad for 
>> jazz,
>> American music, or American culture.
>
> I think there's a huge difference in scale. The drop in audience from
> the big band era to the bebop era is a lot less drastic than the drop in
> the audience of poetry in the 60s, as I reckon.
>
> With the advent of fusion, Jazz secured a very strong, if overall
> minority audience, and a much greater proportion of Jazz musicians these
> days can make a good living from the art than of poets.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed May 18 15:22:11 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:22:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
Message-ID: <11757553.1116444131703.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Not a bit scientific, but sorry numbers they are.

The top 25 selling books in the poetry category (#nnnn is the sales rank in books-- I just took some samples):

 1 The Prophet by KAHLIL GIBRAN # 932
 2 Delights and Shadows by Ted Kooser # 1394
 3 Break, Blow, Burn : Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World's Best Poems by CAMILLE PAGLIA
 4 The Cartoon Guide to Chemistry by Larry Gonick, Craig Criddle
 5 Iliad and Odyssey boxed set [BOX SET]by Homer, et al
 6 Teaching with Fire: Poetry That Sustains the Courage to Teach by Sam M. Intrator (Editor), et al
 7 The Odyssey by Robert Fagles, et al
 8 The Rose That Grew From Concrete by Tupac Shakur
 9 Essential Rumi by Coleman Barks
10 The Moments, the Minutes, the Hours : The Poetry of Jill Scott by Jill Scott
11 Slouching Toward Nirvana : New Poems by Charles Bukowski # 2428
12 The Handmaid's Tale : A Novel by Margaret Atwood
13 Legal Writing in Plain English: A Text With Exercises by Bryan A. Garner
14 Beowulf: A New Verse Translation by Seamus Heaney (Editor)
15 The Poetry Home Repair Manual: Practical Advice For Beginning Poets by Ted Kooser
16 The Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy : and Other Stories by Tim Burton
17 Love Poems from God : Twelve Sacred Voices from the East and West by Various, Daniel Ladinsky
18 Divine Comedy, The by Dante Alighieri, John Ciardi 
20 A Child's Garden Of Verses by Robert Louis Stevenson, Tasha Tudor (Illustrator)
21 Iliad, The (Classics Deluxe Edition) : Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition (Penguin Classics) 
22 Divine Comedy : Inferno; Purgatorio; Paradiso (in one volume) (Everyman's Library (Cloth)) by DANTE
23 Gilgamesh : A New English Version by Stephen Mitchell
24 The Poetry of Pope John Paul II by Pope John Paul II
25 The Best Day The Worst Day : Life with Jane Kenyon by Donald Hall #5220

Original poems by living authors, plus Poet's Market, from #75 to # 20 in poetry:

30 Gardening in the Dark by Laura Kasischke
35 Sailing Alone Around the Room : New and Selected Poems by BILLY COLLINS #6699
37 Blinking with Fists by Billy Corgan
39 The Complete Collected Poems of Maya Angelou by MAYA ANGELOU
41 Why I Wake Early by Mary Oliver
43 Owls and Other Fantasies : Poems and Essays by Mary Oliver
44 The Great Fires : Poems, 1982-1992 by JACK GILBERT
45 Phenomenal Woman : Four Poems Celebrating Women by MAYA ANGELOU
46 Kiss of God - The Wisdom of a Silent Child by Marshall Stewart Ball (bio here: http://www.marshallball.com/bio.htm)
48 2005 Poets Market (Poet's Market) by Nancy Breen (Editor), Erika Kruse (Editor)
64 Refusing Heaven by JACK GILBERT
71 Where Shall I Wander : New Poems by John Ashbery
74 Small Wonder by Barbara Kingsolver, Paul Mirocha (Illustrator)
85 New and Selected Poems : Volume One by Mary Oliver
86 Winter Morning Walks : 100 Postcards to Jim Harrison (Poetry Series) by Ted Kooser
96 Collected Poems 1943-2004 by Richard Wilbur # 14524


Random notes:

There are probably a dozen editions of Homer in the list, and Simone Weil's War and the Iliad is 68.
Hesiod outsells Eliot. There are 4 or 5 editions of Neruda. Several poetry handbooks.
#1 fiction is #10 in books.
#100 in fiction is #1365 in books -- better than any poetry except Khalil Ghibran
Mary Oliver and Ted Kooser are doing all right.
Homer, Dante, and Milton rule.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed May 18 15:26:21 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:26:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <001e01c55bd4$dd410f30$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BEB1010D.12224%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/18/05 1:10 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

>> From Uche: Aren't there respectable studies along the lines of these
> questions?  If
> not, what the blazes is poetic academia up to?  <duck>
> 
> 
> You know, he's right. Are such studies? What the blazes IS poetic academia
> up to? I don't know the answer to either question.
> 
> 
> Tad Richards

I'm not aware of any such studies, which was part of my point:  confident
assertions that poetry "drove readers away" or "lost its audience" are not
made more believable by being re-asserted down the decades without
substantive supporting evidence.  Not to mention flying in the face of
considerable counter-evidence.

I've mentioned before a long-ago essay by Donald Hall on the topic ("Poetry
Popularity, & The Golden Age"), in which (unlike Dana Gioia et al., ad
infinitum) he actually dug up a few statistics about sales figures to
illustrate his contention that the "poetry is dead" crowd were not talking
about verifiable reality, much of the time. It was published in 1982, and is
now wildly out of date, and was hardly a systematic study to start with.
Still, he did actually dig up some sales figures.

But I've been waiting ever since for someone to take his idea and run with
it in some scholarly manner.  Haven't seen anyone do so--but would be
delighted to be corrected on this.

A very interesting book on fashion, taste, politics & aesthetics in poetry,
if not sales statistics, is *The American Poetry Wax Museum:  Reality
Effects, 1940-1990* by Jed Rasula.  In it he includes some fascinating
appendices listing, for example, who won nearly every major poetry award and
book contest for the period. It's an invaluable snapshot of poetic reality
that is sometimes at odds with received wisdom.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From mandolin at mac.com  Wed May 18 15:30:32 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:30:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <002301c55bd7$c62f92f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
	<00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
	<001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
	<1116430998.1829.230.camel@malatesta>
	<008801c55bc2$b8677c60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1116437010.1829.238.camel@malatesta>
	<002301c55bd7$c62f92f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <15122410.1116444632166.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 02:32PM, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

>This goes back to your other question -- how do we measure such things? I'd 
>guess the reverse -- that there was never a time when poetry remotely 
>approached the popularity of swing-era jazz.
>
>

Tennyson once complained that people would collect his fingernail clippings if they could.


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed May 18 15:37:18 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:37:18 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <15122410.1116444632166.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <ECOWS01M5fV47eN1Y8H00095c40@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>

Apparently Cosima collected Wagner's. 
P
> 
> Tennyson once complained that people would collect his 
> fingernail clippings if they could.
> 



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 18 15:42:19 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:42:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
Message-ID: <1d4.3c406712.2fbcf49b@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/18/2005 2:26:15 PM Central Daylight Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> The American Poetry Wax Museum:  Reality
> Effects, 1940-1990
Hey, sounds interesting!
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 18 15:45:00 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:45:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
Message-ID: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/18/2005 2:28:12 PM Central Daylight Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes: 
> 
> Not a bit scientific, but sorry numbers they are.
> 
> The top 25 selling books in the poetry category (#nnnn is the sales rank in 
> books-- I just took some samples):
> 
> 1 The Prophet by KAHLIL GIBRAN # 932
> 2 Delights and Shadows by Ted Kooser # 1394
> 3 Break, Blow, Burn : Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World's Best 
> Poems by CAMILLE PAGLIA
> 4 The Cartoon Guide to Chemistry by Larry Gonick, Craig Criddle
> 5 Iliad and Odyssey boxed set [BOX SET]by Homer, et al
> 6 Teaching with Fire: Poetry That Sustains the Courage to Teach by Sam M. 
> Intrator (Editor), et al
> 7 The Odyssey by Robert Fagles, et al
> 8 The Rose That Grew From Concrete by Tupac Shakur
> 9 Essential Rumi by Coleman Barks
> 10 The Moments, the Minutes, the Hours : The Poetry of Jill Scott by Jill 
> Scott
> 11 Slouching Toward Nirvana : New Poems by Charles Bukowski # 2428
> 12 The Handmaid's Tale : A Novel by Margaret Atwood
> 13 Legal Writing in Plain English: A Text With Exercises by Bryan A. Garner
> 14 Beowulf: A New Verse Translation by Seamus Heaney (Editor)
> 15 The Poetry Home Repair Manual: Practical Advice For Beginning Poets by 
> Ted Kooser
> 16 The Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy : and Other Stories by Tim Burton
> 17 Love Poems from God : Twelve Sacred Voices from the East and West by 
> Various, Daniel Ladinsky
> 18 Divine Comedy, The by Dante Alighieri, John Ciardi 
> 20 A Child's Garden Of Verses by Robert Louis Stevenson, Tasha Tudor 
> (Illustrator)
> 21 Iliad, The (Classics Deluxe Edition) : Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition 
> (Penguin Classics) 
> 22 Divine Comedy : Inferno; Purgatorio; Paradiso (in one volume) (Everyman's 
> Library (Cloth)) by DANTE
> 23 Gilgamesh : A New English Version by Stephen Mitchell
> 24 The Poetry of Pope John Paul II by Pope John Paul II
> 25 The Best Day The Worst Day : Life with Jane Kenyon by Donald Hall #5220
> 
> Original poems by living authors, plus Poet's Market, from #75 to # 20 in 
> poetry:
> 
You forgot Gwynn, holding steady at #612,908.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 18 15:45:39 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:45:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
Message-ID: <1fb.8e01463.2fbcf563@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/18/2005 2:39:41 PM Central Daylight Time, 
peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk writes: 
> 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> Apparently Cosima collected Wagner's. 
> P
> >
> >Tennyson once complained that people would collect his 
> >fingernail clippings if they could.
> >
> 
Mine are for sale on eBay.  Toenails too.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed May 18 16:03:57 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:03:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <006601c55be4$bb3019d0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Wasn't very long, at all , Robin--and I thank you for it.  Frankly, I don't 
know why anyone interested in any kind of poetry wouldn't get something out 
of it, even if he care nothing for concrete or visual poetry.  But I'm not 
up to replying to it right away.  Too beat.

--Bob

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


> [Health Warning: this is going to be a *very* long post, and I suspect the
> only person who'll read the whole thing will be Bob Grumman.  The weak of
> heart should leave now and no one should feel embarrassed about giving up 
> in
> despair part-way through -- the Stone Dormouse.]
>
>> >> Concrete poetry--now called visual poetry by just about everybody in
> the field--
>> >
>> > Well, they may call it so but that don't make it so.
>
> I shouldn't add comments to comments I've already made (bit like
> cheating) but I really should have included this initially.  Going back to
> the original google search that Peter and I ran, we have 38,000 CP hits,
> 76,500 VP hits and 913 joint hits.  That means that in the 114,500
> situations where concrete poetry or visual poetry are mentioned, they're
> only mentioned in the same context *913* times.  Well, that's only google, 
> a
> crude tool, and you could argue that on some of the occasions where visual
> poetry occurs, concrete poetry will be implicitly included, but that 
> doesn't
> work with the concrete-only hits.
>
> I don't think this is just verbal games-playing, Bob, but goes to the 
> heart
> of one of our disagreements -- to hold, as you do, that visual poetry
> includes concrete poetry implies a continuity between the forms; to argue 
> as
> I do that the two terms are distinct implies a (radical) disjunction 
> between
> the forms.
>
>> Concrete poetry was poetry in which the visual appearance of a poem's 
>> text
>> was significant.  It became visual poetry.
>
> Now stop right there.  In the origins of the concrete poetry movement in 
> the
> 60s, there were two distinct strands -- the strict typographical and the
> enhanced typographical.  (I'm making these terms up as I don't know if
> there's an accepted way of referring to them -- you know, Bob?)
>
> Strict typographical in this sense would be poetry which while radically
> transforming the way "words" are used and laid out, sticks to, crudely, a
> single font (and was influenced I imagine by Cummings -- see, Bob, I'm
> finally caught-up and am giving Cummings a capital in his name).  For me,
> the major exemplar of this would be Edwin Morgan.
>
> This had as a side-effect, the way it was possible to include concrete
> poetry in the same volume as line poetry (constraints of printing).  Edwin
> Morgan's +The Second Life+ (1968), where much of his concrete poetry first
> appears in book form, is an example of this.
>
> Anecdote Warning:  Skip if you hate these.
>
> +The Second Life+ was published in 1968 by Edinburgh University Press and
> had the concrete poems printed on different coloured paper from the line
> poems.  When I first encountered the book, I thought, "What a terrific
> idea!" (and it made for a stunningly attractive physical artefact).  Later
> on, Eddie told me that he hadn't *wanted* this -- it had been imposed on 
> him
> by his publishers against his wishes, as an attempt to ghetto-ise the
> concrete work -- "We're publishing this, but we'd like you to know that we
> don't entirely approve of it."  Subsequently, Eddie never made this
> distinction between his concrete and line poetry, nor when he reprinted
> poems from +The Second Life+.
>
> EndAnecdote
>
> One side-effect of this was that it was easier for strict typography poets
> to move into (or back into) line poetry while still incorporating the most
> productive elements of concrete poetry after concrete poetry had
> crashed&burned.
>
> A slight parallel might be with the Imagist Movement, which flared briefly
> and burned out quickly, but where Ezra Pound fed elements of Imagism into
> all his subsequent work.
>
> Enhanced typography had big letters, wee letters, different coloured 
> letters
> spread every which way over the page, and moved much further away from a
> "normal" semantic base.  The obvious example of this would be Ian Hamilton
> Finlay.  Also *much* more expensive to print.
>
> (And before anyone accuses me of chauvinism in citing two Scottish poets
> working in the sixties as my examples, it's more that I am really 
> blindingly
> ignorant in this area, and these are the only two I can refer to with any
> remote degree of confidence.)
>
> Edwin Morgan gradually moved further and further back into line poetry, 
> Ian
> Hamilton Finlay headed north and began to construct Little Sparta, turning
> himself into Scotland's Finest Sculpture (one of the jewels in our 
> cultural
> crown) -- but a sculptor, not a poet.
>
> One odd thing (or maybe not, given that it actually is possible to read a
> concrete poem aloud, something I simply wouldn't have believed till I 
> heard
> Bob Tait and Edwin Morgan do it) was that out of the ashes of concrete
> poetry arose sound poetry.  The major exponent of this was Bob Cobbing and
> the geographical focus shifted to London and Kurt Schwitters was fed into
> the mix.  That's still going strong, expanding and mutating, alive and 
> well
> but I guess with a limited audience.  Dunno, unless you're there, 
> physically
> in London, it's difficult to work out just what the hell *is* happening.
>
> Confession of special interest (as they say in all the best newspapers). 
> I
> only really seriously used concrete poetry once, as part of a sequence I 
> was
> writing across the late 60s / early 70s, +A Notebook for the Beautiful and
> the Damned of this Present Age+.
>
>        [google hits on "sound poetry:  26,300]
>
> Enough of sound poetry for the moment, unless Bob wants to pick up on it.
>
>> Many who compose visual poetry
>> make a point of claiming not to be concrete poets or to be doing anything
>> connected to concrete poetry, but that's silly.
>
> Quite right of them, I'd feel.  Obviously.
>
> [ASIDE:  Just done my obligatory Wednesday Snap for poetryetc.  Here it 
> is:
>
>        Thought for the Day
>
> I had a concrete poet for tea the other day --
>       he tasted delicious           ]
>
>> > Odd that so many people are still writing it then.  And writing it 
>> > well.
>>
>> Not at all odd.  As I keep saying, you can compose worthwhile poems
> without
>> doing anything significantly new technically.  New subject-matter, new
>> points-of-view, juggling one more ball than anyone else ever has, etc.
>
> Ever since I first encountered your argument around this what seems like
> centuries ago now, Bob, I've been trying to put my finger on what bothers
> me, and I think I've finally got it -- you seem to be drawing a total
> distinction between form and content.
>
> Um ...
>
> I'd argue that it's *impossible* for them *not* to interact -- that the
> introduction of new material, persona, whatever into an established form
> *inevitably* effects the nature of the form, and shifts it into a new 
> area.
> Vice versa, of course -- the introduction of new techniques effects the
> content of whatever is being written.  You simply can't separate the two 
> the
> way you seem to me to be trying to do.
>
>> > (I'm in the process of rereading Ann Sexton's +The Awful Rowing Towards
>> > God+
>> > at this moment, and as well as being quite terrifying, there are formal
>> > possibilities there that haven't been remotely explored.)
>>
>> Name one, please.
>
> This question demands a lucid, unequivocal and expansive answer, but do 
> you
> *really* expect to get one, Bob?
>
> (I'll keep this in mind, and when I've finished rereading Awful Rowing -- 
> which I should be doing at this moment rather than typing this 
> interminable
> post -- come back on this, either publicly with an answer or backchannel 
> to
> Bob admitting I don't have an answer.)
>
> But ...
>
> In the mid-seventies, I was working on a sequence called "The Jenny Poems"
> and was almost finished when I found myself blocked --stuck, deadended,
> gobsmacked, you name it.  I kind-of knew that what I needed was some sort 
> of
> formal element that I couldn't quite put my finger on.  As one does in 
> such
> situations, I was glumly wandering up and down the poetry shelves of the
> local library kicking out with frustration when out fell a copy of +The
> Awful Rowing Towards God+.  I picked it up and opened it and ... 
> BINGO!!!!
>
> I don't think (I hope) what resulted was imitation Ann Sexton, but she 
> sure
> as hell gave me the key that unlocked a very specific form/content problem 
> I
> had -- no way could I write about what I wanted with the techniques I'd up
> to then accumulated.
>
> It was something to do with using lines with no apparent length order but 
> an
> underlying coherence.  Vague I know, but the best I can manage at the
> moment.  A more coherent answer if&when.
>
>> free verse at first gave more expressive potential to what I call 
>> terminal
>> line-breaks; that led to initial and internal line-breaks--which was one
> of
>> the things that led to "liberated text-placement," a key feature of all
>> visual poetry.  (ad hoc term)
>
> That's, I think, part of what I'm seeing in Sexton -- a more extreme use 
> of
> line break than in most free verse.
>
>> > that whatever
>> > objections you level against free verse, Bob, to suggest that it's
>> > "already
>> > played out" (K, you didn't quite say that but you implied it) is a bit
>> > weak.
>>
>> technically played out.
>
> See above, re the form/content distinction
>
>> > But I just can't buy the image of a slavering band of visual young turk
>> > poets taking over the verbal universe.
>>
>> Who is trying to sell it to you?
>
> Ah, I know -- just couldn't resist the image, unfair or not.  <g>
>
>> > Never worked, never will.  There's a final court of appeal (as well as
> the
>> > test of time) and you can't get round it.
>> >
>> > EndRant
>>
>> Right--but my problem is with the people between my kind of poetry and
> that
>> final court of appeal.
>
> ... Yeah, but now there's the Web -- you can leapfrog the established 
> modes
> and communicate direct with your public.  And surely the Web would suit
> visual poetry and mathemateku and the rest better than conventional print
> media?
>
> I think you're just a little trying to have your cake and eat it too, Bob.
>
> FINIS
>
> And my apologies for the length of this -- if I'd tried to make it 
> shorter,
> it would have ended up longer.
>
>        The Stone Dormouse
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed May 18 16:11:06 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:11:06 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin>
	<006601c55be4$bb3019d0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <02bc01c55be5$ba0b5370$44169c51@Robin>

> Wasn't very long, at all , Robin--and I thank you for it.

Maybe not to you, Bob, but I bet it was to everyone else.

> Frankly, I don't
> know why anyone interested in any kind of poetry wouldn't get something
out
> of it, even if he care nothing for concrete or visual poetry.

Dunno -- if I hadn't been writing it, I doubt if I'd've read it to the end.

> But I'm not
> up to replying to it right away.  Too beat.

K -- you gave me a night to think, so I'll allow you the same, and pass the
meantime honing my Sexton argument.

            The Stone Dormouse.




From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 18 17:24:41 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:24:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <11757553.1116444131703.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <007201c55bf0$0399fff0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I'm sorry, I can't accept this list. There are no burstnorm poets on it.
Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 3:22 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales


> Not a bit scientific, but sorry numbers they are.
>
> The top 25 selling books in the poetry category (#nnnn is the sales rank 
> in books-- I just took some samples):
>
> 1 The Prophet by KAHLIL GIBRAN # 932
> 2 Delights and Shadows by Ted Kooser # 1394
> 3 Break, Blow, Burn : Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World's Best 
> Poems by CAMILLE PAGLIA
> 4 The Cartoon Guide to Chemistry by Larry Gonick, Craig Criddle
> 5 Iliad and Odyssey boxed set [BOX SET]by Homer, et al
> 6 Teaching with Fire: Poetry That Sustains the Courage to Teach by Sam M. 
> Intrator (Editor), et al
> 7 The Odyssey by Robert Fagles, et al
> 8 The Rose That Grew From Concrete by Tupac Shakur
> 9 Essential Rumi by Coleman Barks
> 10 The Moments, the Minutes, the Hours : The Poetry of Jill Scott by Jill 
> Scott
> 11 Slouching Toward Nirvana : New Poems by Charles Bukowski # 2428
> 12 The Handmaid's Tale : A Novel by Margaret Atwood
> 13 Legal Writing in Plain English: A Text With Exercises by Bryan A. 
> Garner
> 14 Beowulf: A New Verse Translation by Seamus Heaney (Editor)
> 15 The Poetry Home Repair Manual: Practical Advice For Beginning Poets by 
> Ted Kooser
> 16 The Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy : and Other Stories by Tim Burton
> 17 Love Poems from God : Twelve Sacred Voices from the East and West by 
> Various, Daniel Ladinsky
> 18 Divine Comedy, The by Dante Alighieri, John Ciardi
> 20 A Child's Garden Of Verses by Robert Louis Stevenson, Tasha Tudor 
> (Illustrator)
> 21 Iliad, The (Classics Deluxe Edition) : Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition 
> (Penguin Classics)
> 22 Divine Comedy : Inferno; Purgatorio; Paradiso (in one volume) 
> (Everyman's Library (Cloth)) by DANTE
> 23 Gilgamesh : A New English Version by Stephen Mitchell
> 24 The Poetry of Pope John Paul II by Pope John Paul II
> 25 The Best Day The Worst Day : Life with Jane Kenyon by Donald Hall #5220
>
> Original poems by living authors, plus Poet's Market, from #75 to # 20 in 
> poetry:
>
> 30 Gardening in the Dark by Laura Kasischke
> 35 Sailing Alone Around the Room : New and Selected Poems by BILLY COLLINS 
> #6699
> 37 Blinking with Fists by Billy Corgan
> 39 The Complete Collected Poems of Maya Angelou by MAYA ANGELOU
> 41 Why I Wake Early by Mary Oliver
> 43 Owls and Other Fantasies : Poems and Essays by Mary Oliver
> 44 The Great Fires : Poems, 1982-1992 by JACK GILBERT
> 45 Phenomenal Woman : Four Poems Celebrating Women by MAYA ANGELOU
> 46 Kiss of God - The Wisdom of a Silent Child by Marshall Stewart Ball 
> (bio here: http://www.marshallball.com/bio.htm)
> 48 2005 Poets Market (Poet's Market) by Nancy Breen (Editor), Erika Kruse 
> (Editor)
> 64 Refusing Heaven by JACK GILBERT
> 71 Where Shall I Wander : New Poems by John Ashbery
> 74 Small Wonder by Barbara Kingsolver, Paul Mirocha (Illustrator)
> 85 New and Selected Poems : Volume One by Mary Oliver
> 86 Winter Morning Walks : 100 Postcards to Jim Harrison (Poetry Series) by 
> Ted Kooser
> 96 Collected Poems 1943-2004 by Richard Wilbur # 14524
>
>
> Random notes:
>
> There are probably a dozen editions of Homer in the list, and Simone 
> Weil's War and the Iliad is 68.
> Hesiod outsells Eliot. There are 4 or 5 editions of Neruda. Several poetry 
> handbooks.
> #1 fiction is #10 in books.
> #100 in fiction is #1365 in books -- better than any poetry except Khalil 
> Ghibran
> Mary Oliver and Ted Kooser are doing all right.
> Homer, Dante, and Milton rule.
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed May 18 17:25:33 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:25:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
References: <1d4.3c406712.2fbcf49b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <011901c55bf0$2052c0a0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Two different possible starting places: (1) what is meant by a person's having an interest in poetry?  Would that mean he occasionally buys collections of poetry or takes them out of a public library.  Or what?  (2) how should an interest in poetry be distinguished from an interest in something else that includes poetry?  For instance, was Homer popular among the ancients, and later peoples, as a poet or as a novelist?  Is Gibran still popular as a poet or as a sage?  How much of rap's popularity should be considered evidence of an attraction to poetry, how much to music, how much to puerile defiance?  Etc.

--Bob G.
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 18 17:25:45 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:25:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <11757553.1116444131703.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <007701c55bf0$298444a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Actually, pretty impressive for Mary Oliver.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 3:22 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales


> Not a bit scientific, but sorry numbers they are.
>
> The top 25 selling books in the poetry category (#nnnn is the sales rank 
> in books-- I just took some samples):
>
> 1 The Prophet by KAHLIL GIBRAN # 932
> 2 Delights and Shadows by Ted Kooser # 1394
> 3 Break, Blow, Burn : Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World's Best 
> Poems by CAMILLE PAGLIA
> 4 The Cartoon Guide to Chemistry by Larry Gonick, Craig Criddle
> 5 Iliad and Odyssey boxed set [BOX SET]by Homer, et al
> 6 Teaching with Fire: Poetry That Sustains the Courage to Teach by Sam M. 
> Intrator (Editor), et al
> 7 The Odyssey by Robert Fagles, et al
> 8 The Rose That Grew From Concrete by Tupac Shakur
> 9 Essential Rumi by Coleman Barks
> 10 The Moments, the Minutes, the Hours : The Poetry of Jill Scott by Jill 
> Scott
> 11 Slouching Toward Nirvana : New Poems by Charles Bukowski # 2428
> 12 The Handmaid's Tale : A Novel by Margaret Atwood
> 13 Legal Writing in Plain English: A Text With Exercises by Bryan A. 
> Garner
> 14 Beowulf: A New Verse Translation by Seamus Heaney (Editor)
> 15 The Poetry Home Repair Manual: Practical Advice For Beginning Poets by 
> Ted Kooser
> 16 The Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy : and Other Stories by Tim Burton
> 17 Love Poems from God : Twelve Sacred Voices from the East and West by 
> Various, Daniel Ladinsky
> 18 Divine Comedy, The by Dante Alighieri, John Ciardi
> 20 A Child's Garden Of Verses by Robert Louis Stevenson, Tasha Tudor 
> (Illustrator)
> 21 Iliad, The (Classics Deluxe Edition) : Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition 
> (Penguin Classics)
> 22 Divine Comedy : Inferno; Purgatorio; Paradiso (in one volume) 
> (Everyman's Library (Cloth)) by DANTE
> 23 Gilgamesh : A New English Version by Stephen Mitchell
> 24 The Poetry of Pope John Paul II by Pope John Paul II
> 25 The Best Day The Worst Day : Life with Jane Kenyon by Donald Hall #5220
>
> Original poems by living authors, plus Poet's Market, from #75 to # 20 in 
> poetry:
>
> 30 Gardening in the Dark by Laura Kasischke
> 35 Sailing Alone Around the Room : New and Selected Poems by BILLY COLLINS 
> #6699
> 37 Blinking with Fists by Billy Corgan
> 39 The Complete Collected Poems of Maya Angelou by MAYA ANGELOU
> 41 Why I Wake Early by Mary Oliver
> 43 Owls and Other Fantasies : Poems and Essays by Mary Oliver
> 44 The Great Fires : Poems, 1982-1992 by JACK GILBERT
> 45 Phenomenal Woman : Four Poems Celebrating Women by MAYA ANGELOU
> 46 Kiss of God - The Wisdom of a Silent Child by Marshall Stewart Ball 
> (bio here: http://www.marshallball.com/bio.htm)
> 48 2005 Poets Market (Poet's Market) by Nancy Breen (Editor), Erika Kruse 
> (Editor)
> 64 Refusing Heaven by JACK GILBERT
> 71 Where Shall I Wander : New Poems by John Ashbery
> 74 Small Wonder by Barbara Kingsolver, Paul Mirocha (Illustrator)
> 85 New and Selected Poems : Volume One by Mary Oliver
> 86 Winter Morning Walks : 100 Postcards to Jim Harrison (Poetry Series) by 
> Ted Kooser
> 96 Collected Poems 1943-2004 by Richard Wilbur # 14524
>
>
> Random notes:
>
> There are probably a dozen editions of Homer in the list, and Simone 
> Weil's War and the Iliad is 68.
> Hesiod outsells Eliot. There are 4 or 5 editions of Neruda. Several poetry 
> handbooks.
> #1 fiction is #10 in books.
> #100 in fiction is #1365 in books -- better than any poetry except Khalil 
> Ghibran
> Mary Oliver and Ted Kooser are doing all right.
> Homer, Dante, and Milton rule.
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Wed May 18 17:29:14 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:29:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com>
Message-ID: <009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Richards --  #1,364,557 


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 3:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales


  In a message dated 5/18/2005 2:28:12 PM Central Daylight Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: 


    Not a bit scientific, but sorry numbers they are.

    The top 25 selling books in the poetry category (#nnnn is the sales rank in books-- I just took some samples):

    1 The Prophet by KAHLIL GIBRAN # 932
    2 Delights and Shadows by Ted Kooser # 1394
    3 Break, Blow, Burn : Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World's Best Poems by CAMILLE PAGLIA
    4 The Cartoon Guide to Chemistry by Larry Gonick, Craig Criddle
    5 Iliad and Odyssey boxed set [BOX SET]by Homer, et al
    6 Teaching with Fire: Poetry That Sustains the Courage to Teach by Sam M. Intrator (Editor), et al
    7 The Odyssey by Robert Fagles, et al
    8 The Rose That Grew From Concrete by Tupac Shakur
    9 Essential Rumi by Coleman Barks
    10 The Moments, the Minutes, the Hours : The Poetry of Jill Scott by Jill Scott
    11 Slouching Toward Nirvana : New Poems by Charles Bukowski # 2428
    12 The Handmaid's Tale : A Novel by Margaret Atwood
    13 Legal Writing in Plain English: A Text With Exercises by Bryan A. Garner
    14 Beowulf: A New Verse Translation by Seamus Heaney (Editor)
    15 The Poetry Home Repair Manual: Practical Advice For Beginning Poets by Ted Kooser
    16 The Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy : and Other Stories by Tim Burton
    17 Love Poems from God : Twelve Sacred Voices from the East and West by Various, Daniel Ladinsky
    18 Divine Comedy, The by Dante Alighieri, John Ciardi 
    20 A Child's Garden Of Verses by Robert Louis Stevenson, Tasha Tudor (Illustrator)
    21 Iliad, The (Classics Deluxe Edition) : Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition (Penguin Classics) 
    22 Divine Comedy : Inferno; Purgatorio; Paradiso (in one volume) (Everyman's Library (Cloth)) by DANTE
    23 Gilgamesh : A New English Version by Stephen Mitchell
    24 The Poetry of Pope John Paul II by Pope John Paul II
    25 The Best Day The Worst Day : Life with Jane Kenyon by Donald Hall #5220

    Original poems by living authors, plus Poet's Market, from #75 to # 20 in poetry:


  You forgot Gwynn, holding steady at #612,908. 


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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed May 18 17:34:37 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:34:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
In-Reply-To: <009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BEB11F1C.1223E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/18/05 4:29 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

Richards --  #1,364,557
 
=======

Kate Sontag & my essay anthology, *After Confession*:   #144,132.  My books
of poems have never even come *close* to that.

Prose is always beating poetry. . . .

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed May 18 17:49:27 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:49:27 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com>
	<009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin>

Hamilton  1,399,000  on the amazon.co.uk ranking.

(I think that means they sold one copy of my book once.  If that.  It may be
a default ranking.)

                The Stone Dormouse




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed May 18 18:20:30 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:20:30 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com><009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <033c01c55bf7$cd75db30$44169c51@Robin>

On the other hand, my criticism scores marginally better:

Amazon UK ranking for +Science and Psychodrama+:   915,119

The problem comes when you read the Amazon synopsis:

 "This is a collection of the poetry of Edwin Morgan, the Glasgow-based poet
and also of David Black"

... well, it's not actually.  It's two long essays.

Also the 4-6 week availability is a joke, both for this and +The Lost
Jockey+ (where someone is also trying to sell a second-hand copy "spine
slightly creased",  which is rather charming really, since it means someone
sometime must have tried to read it) since even *I* don't know where my
publisher is today, let alone Amazon UK, so just how the hell they'd get a
copy of LJ from him ...

Hey, this game is *fun*!!!  I wonder if I figure on the US site?

Oh bloody hell, virtually everything I've ever published since 1973 is
listed!!!  (All unavailable, unsurprisingly.)

K, let's play this to the end -- how does the Donne edition score?

            Amazon US:  708,669
            Amazon UK:   144,849

 Not too bad that, really.

Bit weird altogether, but.

        The Stone Dormouse




From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Wed May 18 18:16:55 2005
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:16:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi Remembered
Message-ID: <200505182220.j4IMKmTD030395@d01av02.pok.ibm.com>

Sam Gwynn wrote:

>>I didn't mean any disrespect to his memory, but he was pretty full of it.
>>One of my happiest moments is when I got into a bridge game with him.  He
>>was
>>playing with an inexperienced partner, bid three no trump, and we set him
>>about
>>five tricks.  He threw down the cards and stomped out of the barn.
>>
Nobody's personality should be judged by his behavior at the
bridge table (or on listservs either :-) I could tell tales...

Richard (thoroughly recovered duplicate bridge player.)


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed May 18 18:52:47 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:52:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com><009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin>
	<033c01c55bf7$cd75db30$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <035e01c55bfc$51853de0$44169c51@Robin>

You couldn't make this up ...

Apparently some lunatic on Amazon US is trying to sell a second-hand copy of
+Science and Psychodrama+ for -- get this --  $79.47  !!!

"This is a valuable title in great condition. Thousands of satisfied
customers."

            And there I never knew ...

                            <g>

I better stop playing this game before I discover that I won the Nobel Prize
for Biochemistry, only nobody bothered to tell me.

        The Stone Dormouse





From mandolin at mac.com  Wed May 18 19:06:00 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:06:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
In-Reply-To: <035e01c55bfc$51853de0$44169c51@Robin>
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com>
	<009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin>
	<033c01c55bf7$cd75db30$44169c51@Robin>
	<035e01c55bfc$51853de0$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <50C7551A-E311-4F69-ADDD-238930169F69@mac.com>


On May 18, 2005, at 6:52 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> You couldn't make this up ...
>
> Apparently some lunatic on Amazon US is trying to sell a second- 
> hand copy of
> +Science and Psychodrama+ for -- get this --  $79.47  !!!
>
> "This is a valuable title in great condition. Thousands of satisfied
> customers."
>
>             And there I never knew ...
>
>                             <g>
>
> I better stop playing this game before I discover that I won the  
> Nobel Prize
> for Biochemistry, only nobody bothered to tell me.
>
>         The Stone Dormouse
>

It wouldn't be hard for some enterprising soul with more time than I  
have to write a webbot which would harvest the Amazon US and UK and  
whatever sales ranks of poetry compared to any other genre(s) one  
chose, and thereby create good data about contemporary poetry sales.  
Historicla data would be harder.

Robin, if I were to write the thing and did in fact discover you'd  
won the Nobel, would I get a share of the money?

Mike S


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed May 18 19:15:07 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:15:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> >> Concrete poetry--now called visual poetry by just about everybody in
> the field--
>> >
>> > Well, they may call it so but that don't make it so.
>
> I shouldn't add comments to comments I've already made (bit like
> cheating) but I really should have included this initially.  Going back to
> the original google search that Peter and I ran, we have 38,000 CP hits,
> 76,500 VP hits and 913 joint hits.  That means that in the 114,500
> situations where concrete poetry or visual poetry are mentioned, they're
> only mentioned in the same context *913* times.  Well, that's only google, 
> a
> crude tool, and you could argue that on some of the occasions where visual
> poetry occurs, concrete poetry will be implicitly included, but that 
> doesn't
> work with the concrete-only hits.

Seems meaningless to me.  Some people call it one thing, some another.


> I don't think this is just verbal games-playing, Bob, but goes to the 
> heart
> of one of our disagreements -- to hold, as you do, that visual poetry
> includes concrete poetry implies a continuity between the forms; to argue 
> as
> I do that the two terms are distinct implies a (radical) disjunction 
> between
> the forms.

There is unquestionably a historical continuity between concrete and visual 
poetry.

>> Concrete poetry was poetry in which the visual appearance of a poem's 
>> text
>> was significant.  It became visual poetry.
>
> Now stop right there.  In the origins of the concrete poetry movement in 
> the
> 60s, there were two distinct strands -- the strict typographical and the
> enhanced typographical.  (I'm making these terms up as I don't know if
> there's an accepted way of referring to them -- you know, Bob?)

There's no accepted way of saying anything about concrete or visual poetry 
that I know of, Robin.  Your two here sound okay to me.

> Strict typographical in this sense would be poetry which while radically
> transforming the way "words" are used and laid out, sticks to, crudely, a
> single font (and was influenced I imagine by Cummings -- see, Bob, I'm
> finally caught-up and am giving Cummings a capital in his name).  For me,
> the major exemplar of this would be Edwin Morgan.

One authority (me, in the recent Facts on File Companion to Contemporary 
American Poetry edited by Burt Kimmelman in an entry on "visual poetry") 
says Gomringer of Switzerland and the Brazilian deCampos brothers got 
"concrete poetry," by that name started in the late fifties, and it led to 
works by Ronald Johnson, Emmett Williams and Aram Saroyan among others in 
the states and fused or something with the similar work of Finlay and Morgan 
in Britain (and many others elsewhere).  I got major help with my essay from 
Karl Young, who really is an authority on the field, and showed my text to 
several visual poets I know, known of whom faulted its facts.  Or notion 
that visual poetry evolved from concrete poetry.  Many poets, for instance, 
called themselves concrete poets, then visual poets, about the same work. 
Me, for one.

> This had as a side-effect, the way it was possible to include concrete
> poetry in the same volume as line poetry (constraints of printing).  Edwin
> Morgan's +The Second Life+ (1968), where much of his concrete poetry first
> appears in book form, is an example of this.

Concrete poetry most rigorously defined was limited to typography.  That is, 
purely graphic images were not allowed.  There were other laws of conduct. 
Visual poets dumped the laws, basically.  But many did, and still do, works 
that would have to be called "concrete poems," going by the Brazilian 
definition.

To me, history doesn't matter so far as the question is concerned.  Concrete 
poems definitely made what a poem looks like on the page aesthetically 
significant--that is, take the graphic enhancement away from it, whatever it 
is, and you destroy it, you don't simply make it less pleasing to the eye, 
as you would if you took the calligraphy away from some non-concrete/visual 
poem that had been fancied up.

(I'm aware I ran with my ideas and probably went way digressive.)

> Anecdote Warning:  Skip if you hate these.
>
> +The Second Life+ was published in 1968 by Edinburgh University Press and
> had the concrete poems printed on different coloured paper from the line
> poems.  When I first encountered the book, I thought, "What a terrific
> idea!" (and it made for a stunningly attractive physical artefact).  Later
> on, Eddie told me that he hadn't *wanted* this -- it had been imposed on 
> him
> by his publishers against his wishes, as an attempt to ghetto-ise the
> concrete work -- "We're publishing this, but we'd like you to know that we
> don't entirely approve of it."  Subsequently, Eddie never made this
> distinction between his concrete and line poetry, nor when he reprinted
> poems from +The Second Life+.

Which, sorry to say, is why he's not thought as important for visual poetry 
or concrete poetry as he might have been.  He didn't see the possibilities.

> EndAnecdote
>
> One side-effect of this was that it was easier for strict typography poets
> to move into (or back into) line poetry while still incorporating the most
> productive elements of concrete poetry after concrete poetry had
> crashed&burned.

It never crashed&burned.  Like almost anything new and good, it made an 
initial sensation, then faded, then revived not so sensationally, and 
evolved into a mature art.  From my limited Americocentric viewpoint, the 
Solt and Williams anthologies splashed concrete poetry, by that name (though 
both had poems with purely graphic elements), into view, it got discussed a 
bit, then the public went on to something else while the poets involved 
mostly kept working, and new poets, inspired by the anthologies, joined in, 
some of them major, in my view, like d a levy and bp Nichol, and branched 
out, and started calling themselves visual poets.


>A slight parallel might be with the Imagist Movement, which flared briefly
> and burned out quickly, but where Ezra Pound fed elements of Imagism into
> all his subsequent work.

Lots of differences, one being that imagism really simply advanced the 
importance of the direct image, and hugely influence poetry in English, but 
those influenced simply took its lesson into their poetry, they didn't join 
the school.  Williams, for instance, is an imagist.  You can't take the 
lessons of concrete poetry into standard poetry without making it visual 
poetry.

> Enhanced typography had big letters, wee letters, different coloured 
> letters
> spread every which way over the page, and moved much further away from a
> "normal" semantic base.  The obvious example of this would be Ian Hamilton
> Finlay.  Also *much* more expensive to print.
>
> (And before anyone accuses me of chauvinism in citing two Scottish poets
> working in the sixties as my examples, it's more that I am really 
> blindingly
> ignorant in this area, and these are the only two I can refer to with any
> remote degree of confidence.)

Do you know John Furneval?  Another important Brit.

> Edwin Morgan gradually moved further and further back into line poetry, 
> Ian
> Hamilton Finlay headed north and began to construct Little Sparta, turning
> himself into Scotland's Finest Sculpture (one of the jewels in our 
> cultural
> crown) -- but a sculptor, not a poet.
>
> One odd thing (or maybe not, given that it actually is possible to read a
> concrete poem aloud, something I simply wouldn't have believed till I 
> heard
> Bob Tait and Edwin Morgan do it) was that out of the ashes of concrete
> poetry arose sound poetry.  The major exponent of this was Bob Cobbing and
> the geographical focus shifted to London and Kurt Schwitters was fed into
> the mix.  That's still going strong, expanding and mutating, alive and 
> well
> but I guess with a limited audience.  Dunno, unless you're there, 
> physically
> in London, it's difficult to work out just what the hell *is* happening.

Yes, sound poetry evolved from concrete/visual poetry.  And maybe in some 
cases vice versa.

> Confession of special interest (as they say in all the best newspapers). 
> I
> only really seriously used concrete poetry once, as part of a sequence I 
> was
> writing across the late 60s / early 70s, +A Notebook for the Beautiful and
> the Damned of this Present Age+.
>
>        [google hits on "sound poetry:  26,300]
>
> Enough of sound poetry for the moment, unless Bob wants to pick up on it.

I don't know much about it.  I have made a couple of poems I consider sound 
poems, though, one of which appeared in an anthology Bob Cobbing's press 
published.


>> Many who compose visual poetry
>> make a point of claiming not to be concrete poets or to be doing anything
>> connected to concrete poetry, but that's silly.
>
> Quite right of them, I'd feel.  Obviously.
>
> [ASIDE:  Just done my obligatory Wednesday Snap for poetryetc.  Here it 
> is:
>
>        Thought for the Day
>
> I had a concrete poet for tea the other day --
>       he tasted delicious           ]
>

No comment.


>> > Odd that so many people are still writing it then.  And writing it 
>> > well.
>>
>> Not at all odd.  As I keep saying, you can compose worthwhile poems
> without
>> doing anything significantly new technically.  New subject-matter, new
>> points-of-view, juggling one more ball than anyone else ever has, etc.
>
> Ever since I first encountered your argument around this what seems like
> centuries ago now, Bob, I've been trying to put my finger on what bothers
> me, and I think I've finally got it -- you seem to be drawing a total
> distinction between form and content.

Right.


> Um ...
>
> I'd argue that it's *impossible* for them *not* to interact -- that the
> introduction of new material, persona, whatever into an established form
> *inevitably* effects the nature of the form, and shifts it into a new 
> area.
> Vice versa, of course -- the introduction of new techniques effects the
> content of whatever is being written.  You simply can't separate the two 
> the
> way you seem to me to be trying to do.

They interact.  So what?  Color interacts with shape.  Does that mean we 
can't separate one from the other for discussion?

>> > (I'm in the process of rereading Ann Sexton's +The Awful Rowing Towards
>> > God+
>> > at this moment, and as well as being quite terrifying, there are formal
>> > possibilities there that haven't been remotely explored.)
>>
>> Name one, please.
>
> This question demands a lucid, unequivocal and expansive answer, but do 
> you
> *really* expect to get one, Bob?

No.  But I thought you might say about what you eventually have.

> (I'll keep this in mind, and when I've finished rereading Awful Rowing -- 
> which I should be doing at this moment rather than typing this 
> interminable
> post -- come back on this, either publicly with an answer or backchannel 
> to
> Bob admitting I don't have an answer.)
>
> But ...
>
> In the mid-seventies, I was working on a sequence called "The Jenny Poems"
> and was almost finished when I found myself blocked --stuck, deadended,
> gobsmacked, you name it.  I kind-of knew that what I needed was some sort 
> of
> formal element that I couldn't quite put my finger on.  As one does in 
> such
> situations, I was glumly wandering up and down the poetry shelves of the
> local library kicking out with frustration when out fell a copy of +The
> Awful Rowing Towards God+.  I picked it up and opened it and ... 
> BINGO!!!!
>
> I don't think (I hope) what resulted was imitation Ann Sexton, but she 
> sure
> as hell gave me the key that unlocked a very specific form/content problem 
> I
> had -- no way could I write about what I wanted with the techniques I'd up
> to then accumulated.

I would say that every free verse poet has a finally unique way of 
structuring a poem but that variable lineation is the non-unique technique 
used.  You may simply not have found a structure for your poems you were 
satisfied until you saw hers.  My sorta like experience was in finally 
realizing the value of terminal line-breaks in the "wrong place," like 
between "the" and "pond," say.  This I would consider to have been a new 
technique when first done, not long ago (to any serious extent).

Anyway, I'm saying you didn't pick up a new technique from Sexton, just a 
kind of rhythm that worked for you.

> It was something to do with using lines with no apparent length order but 
> an
> underlying coherence.  Vague I know, but the best I can manage at the
> moment.  A more coherent answer if&when.
>
>> free verse at first gave more expressive potential to what I call 
>> terminal
>> line-breaks; that led to initial and internal line-breaks--which was one
> of
>> the things that led to "liberated text-placement," a key feature of all
>> visual poetry.  (ad hoc term)
>
> That's, I think, part of what I'm seeing in Sexton -- a more extreme use 
> of
> line break than in most free verse.

I don't know Sexton well, and don't like what I know of her stuff at all, so 
can't say.  I would have trouble believing her lineation more liberated than 
Cummings's, though, or anything by the concrete/visual poets.

>> > that whatever
>> > objections you level against free verse, Bob, to suggest that it's
>> > "already
>> > played out" (K, you didn't quite say that but you implied it) is a bit
>> > weak.
>>
>> technically played out.
>
> See above, re the form/content distinction

Think of how subject matter can be changed.  I would ask for a similarly 
recognizable change of technique before I could accept that any recent poet 
has done anything technically new in conventional free verse.

>> > But I just can't buy the image of a slavering band of visual young turk
>> > poets taking over the verbal universe.
>>
>> Who is trying to sell it to you?
>
> Ah, I know -- just couldn't resist the image, unfair or not.  <g>
>
>> > Never worked, never will.  There's a final court of appeal (as well as
> the
>> > test of time) and you can't get round it.
>> >
>> > EndRant
>>
>> Right--but my problem is with the people between my kind of poetry and
> that
>> final court of appeal.
>
> ... Yeah, but now there's the Web -- you can leapfrog the established 
> modes
> and communicate direct with your public.  And surely the Web would suit
> visual poetry and mathemateku

It's "mathemaku," as I previously have politely refrained from telling you.

>and the rest better than conventional print media?
>
> I think you're just a little trying to have your cake and eat it too, Bob. 
> The web doesn't work yet.  I hope it will.  It's too chaotic, too much 
> still under the thumb of the Establishment (that is, all the visible 
> poetry sites are mainstream)--and the public is too servile not to 
> continue to be led by the NY Times, regardless of what's on the web. 
> Which gets me back to my true hobby horse, the need for a list of schools 
> of poetry, to help people find poetry they like or might at least be 
> curious about.  If such a list were combined with an intelligent search 
> engine cum taste analyzer, things would really improve.  But the seriously 
> unconventional would still need time to win approval.

> FINIS
>
> And my apologies for the length of this -- if I'd tried to make it 
> shorter,
> it would have ended up longer.
>
>        The Stone Dormouse

My apologies for short-changing you.

Robitt 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed May 18 19:43:10 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:43:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com><009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin><033c01c55bf7$cd75db30$44169c51@Robin><035e01c55bfc$51853de0$44169c51@Robin>
	<50C7551A-E311-4F69-ADDD-238930169F69@mac.com>
Message-ID: <038a01c55c03$5a49cb10$44169c51@Robin>

> Historicla data would be harder.

Actually, Mike, if you rely on inference rather than hard data, history can
be easier than current.

In one of my more venomous anti-academic scholarship-on-the-cheap moods, I
decided to test the evidence for the virtual clich? that Pope's reputation
suffered a severe decline during the Romantic period.

All I did was drag a copy of the published version of the British Library
catalogue off the shelves of my local university library and check when the
various collected editions of Alexander Pope were first published.

(Biggest problem was that the bloody thing was photoreduced from the bound
BL catalogues, so I had to use a magnifying glass.)

Counterintuitively, it turned out that the period when the largest number of
*new* editions of Pope were being published was smack in the middle of
1795-1830.

These wouldn't have been published if people weren't buying them ...  And
presumably thereafter reading them.

Another assumption bites the dust ...

I liked this rather silly exercise as it blew apart an Accepted Truth -- and
it took all of three hours to do from beginning to end.

What did annoy me was that as it was so easy to do, why hadn't someone done
it already and saved me three hours of eyestrain?

        Bedtime for the Stone Dormouse

> Robin, if I were to write the thing and did in fact discover you'd
> won the Nobel, would I get a share of the money?

        10% suit?

R.




From mandolin at mac.com  Wed May 18 20:06:45 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:06:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
In-Reply-To: <038a01c55c03$5a49cb10$44169c51@Robin>
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com>
	<009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin>
	<033c01c55bf7$cd75db30$44169c51@Robin>
	<035e01c55bfc$51853de0$44169c51@Robin>
	<50C7551A-E311-4F69-ADDD-238930169F69@mac.com>
	<038a01c55c03$5a49cb10$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <08CC40AA-EA81-4601-914E-27D60C894E9C@mac.com>


On May 18, 2005, at 7:43 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

>> Historicla data would be harder.
>>
>
> Actually, Mike, if you rely on inference rather than hard data,  
> history can
> be easier than current.
>
> In one of my more venomous anti-academic scholarship-on-the-cheap  
> moods, I
> decided to test the evidence for the virtual clich? that Pope's  
> reputation
> suffered a severe decline during the Romantic period.
>
> All I did was drag a copy of the published version of the British  
> Library
> catalogue off the shelves of my local university library and check  
> when the
> various collected editions of Alexander Pope were first published.
>
> (Biggest problem was that the bloody thing was photoreduced from  
> the bound
> BL catalogues, so I had to use a magnifying glass.)
>
> Counterintuitively, it turned out that the period when the largest  
> number of
> *new* editions of Pope were being published was smack in the middle of
> 1795-1830.
>
> These wouldn't have been published if people weren't buying  
> them ...  And
> presumably thereafter reading them.
>
> Another assumption bites the dust ...
>
> I liked this rather silly exercise as it blew apart an Accepted  
> Truth -- and
> it took all of three hours to do from beginning to end.
>
> What did annoy me was that as it was so easy to do, why hadn't  
> someone done
> it already and saved me three hours of eyestrain?

That's a fine three hours work. Made me reread a few pages of  
Biographia Literaria to confsider how much the facts must have  
bothered Coleridge.

>
>         Bedtime for the Stone Dormouse
>
>
>> Robin, if I were to write the thing and did in fact discover you'd
>> won the Nobel, would I get a share of the money?
>>
>
>         10% suit?
>

Did a little fact-checking myself -- since there is no Nobel in  
biochemistry, I'd have to get 20% of that 10% in advance. Say 20K US?

> R.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed May 18 21:26:15 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:26:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com><009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin><033c01c55bf7$cd75db30$44169c51@Robin><035e01c55bfc$51853de0$44169c51@Robin><50C7551A-E311-4F69-ADDD-238930169F69@mac.com>
	<038a01c55c03$5a49cb10$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <01d301c55c11$c08e5540$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Actually, Mike, if you rely on inference rather than hard data, history 
> can
> be easier than current.
>
> In one of my more venomous anti-academic scholarship-on-the-cheap moods, I
> decided to test the evidence for the virtual clich? that Pope's reputation
> suffered a severe decline during the Romantic period.
>
> All I did was drag a copy of the published version of the British Library
> catalogue off the shelves of my local university library and check when 
> the
> various collected editions of Alexander Pope were first published.
>
> (Biggest problem was that the bloody thing was photoreduced from the bound
> BL catalogues, so I had to use a magnifying glass.)
>
> Counterintuitively, it turned out that the period when the largest number 
> of
> *new* editions of Pope were being published was smack in the middle of
> 1795-1830.
>
> These wouldn't have been published if people weren't buying them ...  And
> presumably thereafter reading them.
>
> Another assumption bites the dust ...

Only if you assume that quantity of readers is more important than quality.

--Bob 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu May 19 00:24:57 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 05:24:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com><009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin><033c01c55bf7$cd75db30$44169c51@Robin><035e01c55bfc$51853de0$44169c51@Robin><50C7551A-E311-4F69-ADDD-238930169F69@mac.com><038a01c55c03$5a49cb10$44169c51@Robin>
	<01d301c55c11$c08e5540$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <03f701c55c2a$b8239a50$44169c51@Robin>

From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>

> > Another assumption bites the dust ...
>
> Only if you assume that quantity of readers is more important than
quality.
>
> --Bob

Well, to chuck the ball back to you, Bob, what evidence have you that the
buyers&readers of Pope before 1795 or after 1830 were of a more
discriminating quality than in that particular period?

Look, I'm making no great claims for this, simply that the fact is that more
new editions of Alexander Pope were published between 1795 and 1830 than in
any comparable period.  And that this runs counter to Received Opinion that
Pope was persona non grata at this time.

Now look, if you want to climb into your private time machine and zip back
to 1805 and buttonhole someone coming out of a bookseller's with the latest
edition of Alexander Pope clutched in their hot sweaty little paw and quiz
them as to their True Commitment to Literature or whatever, I'll be utterly
fascinated to know what they said when you return to tell me.

Until then, I stand where I stood.

        The Stone Dormouse





From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Thu May 19 04:30:41 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:30:41 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi Remembered
In-Reply-To: <200505181540.j4IFexl3023942@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>
References: <200505181540.j4IFexl3023942@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <1116491441.428c4eb19036f@webmail.ukonline.net>



> Sam Gwynn wrote
> >>I knew Ciardi slightly, and he was at least 70% bullshit.  

In Transatlantia Ciardi is known exclusively as a translator of Dante. Of all 
the English Dantes I've read (or, more often, given up on reading) his are my 
favourites, certainly of the Inferno and - above all - of the Purgatorio. - 
this is clean, mostly lucid and untortured, full of spirit & I'm for ever 
grateful. 

I didn't know Ciardi had such a colourful character. Most poets and most 
people have their not very nice sides. I'd kind of assumed that like some 
other dedicated poetic translators to whom I'm eternally grateful, he was 
probably a forgettable original poet on the side. I guess I'm right. (Yes I 
know there's Pound, but Pound's translations are never read by anyone but 
Poundophiles; no-one mistakes them for gifts to the common reader.) 

(It doesn't much matter which translation of the Paradiso you read, it's still 
unreadable in my opinion - not much better in Italian. It's eminently and 
enjoyably "study-able", but if it comes to that I'd as soon tackle Duns or 
Aquinas). 

(Kind of have a feeling Dante's character was 70% bullshit too.) Anyhow, this 
is all bollox but I do earnestly recommend Ciardi's Purgatorio! 

best to all

Michael

----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu May 19 05:58:28 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:58:28 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (concrete/visual)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin>
	<01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <044c01c55c59$4f1a5e20$44169c51@Robin>

> > only mentioned in the same context *913* times.  Well, that's only
google,
> > a
> > crude tool, and you could argue that on some of the occasions where
visual
> > poetry occurs, concrete poetry will be implicitly included, but that
> > doesn't
> > work with the concrete-only hits.
>
> Seems meaningless to me.

It may be trivial but it isn't meaningless -- a large difference.

>  Some people call it one thing, some another.

That's the very *point*, isn't it?  Your original assertion was that most
people (was it?) referred to concrete poetry as visual poetry.  You were the
one who said this, and I've tried to demonstrate it ain't so -- you can't
just dismiss this by sneering at the evidence I provide.  At least challenge
what I say rather than giving a simple rejection.  I could challenge my own
evidence better than you have done, but I don't see why I should do your
work for you.

            <g>

But I'll come back to this below.

> > a (radical) disjunction between the forms.
>
> There is unquestionably a historical continuity between concrete and
visual
> poetry.

When I was eight years old, my kindergarten teacher took me by the arm and
gently drew me to the side of the class. "Robin", she said, "if you must
call you little best friend the illegitimate child of a spavined warthog
covered in fleas, you really ought to provide some evidence.  ASSERTION
ISN'T EVIDENCE, you nasty little tick!"

... especially when, as above, the unsupported assertion turns on the very
point at issue.

If the continuity is so "unquestionable" (and I for one am questioning it),
there's a simple counter to me, Bob -- take a sixties concrete poet and a
nineties or later visual poet and demonstrate the continuity.  If what you
say is true, it shouldn't be that difficult.  (Or -- seriously -- point me
to somewhere where you've already done this.)

> > enhanced typographical.  (I'm making these terms up as I don't know if
> > there's an accepted way of referring to them -- you know, Bob?)
>
> There's no accepted way of saying anything about concrete or visual poetry
> that I know of, Robin.  Your two here sound okay to me.

OK, so long as I know I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'll see if I can think
of some less clunky terms to characterise what I'm talking about.

> One authority (me, in the recent Facts on File Companion to Contemporary
> American Poetry edited by Burt Kimmelman in an entry on "visual poetry")

Is it on line, Bob?  Or something comparable?  I'm short of money, I'm
afraid, and reluctant to buy another book.  (Seriously -- that wasn't meant
as a put-off.  Straight out.)

> says Gomringer of Switzerland and the Brazilian deCampos brothers got
> "concrete poetry," by that name started in the late fifties, and it led to
> works by Ronald Johnson, Emmett Williams and Aram Saroyan among others in
> the states

Didn't the Swiss and Brazilian branches of concrete poetry spring up
independently?  I don't really know the work of the American concrete poets
of this period.

> and fused or something with the similar work of Finlay and Morgan

Morgan and Finlay were certainly aware of the Brazilian connection.  When I
was growing up, I somehow assumed that concrete poetry was something that
existed in Scotland and Brazil but nowhere else.  Perhaps (almost certainly)
I was wrong.

> in Britain

Are you deliberately trying to wind me up, Bob?  Morgan and Finlay WERE
SCOTTISH!!

(Not just a trivial debating point, I hope.  I think -- and again I may
wrong -- 60s concrete was *much* more alive in Scotland than in England.)

> (and many others elsewhere).  I got major help with my essay from
> Karl Young, who really is an authority on the field, and showed my text to
> several visual poets I know, known of whom faulted its facts.  Or notion
> that visual poetry evolved from concrete poetry.

At this point, I'm tempted to hum under my breath, "I thought the Appeal to
Authority had gone out when the Scholastics stopped relying on Aristotle."
Again, you're not actually *demonstrating* anything, Bob.

> Many poets, for instance,
> called themselves concrete poets, then visual poets, about the same work.
> Me, for one.

Well, I could call myself Fred on Monday and Mary on Tuesday, but unless I'd
had a sex-change operation in the interval, all I'd be doing would be making
noises.  I *really* don't see the relevance of what you're saying above.
Unless you were writing what you called a concrete poem in the sixties, and
then same poem but calling it a visual poem in the nineties.

> Concrete poetry most rigorously defined was limited to typography.  That
is,
> purely graphic images were not allowed.

Right -- I can entirely agree with that.

> There were other laws of conduct.
> Visual poets dumped the laws, basically.

Hey, you were the one who was arguing continuity!!!

> But many did, and still do, works
> that would have to be called "concrete poems," going by the Brazilian
> definition.

Uh ...  You now seem to be drawing a distinction between visual and concrete
poetry -- I thought that was *my* side of the argument.

> To me, history doesn't matter so far as the question is concerned.

Ouch!!!  I don't quite know how to respond to this.  <g>

> Concrete
> poems definitely made what a poem looks like on the page aesthetically
> significant--that is, take the graphic enhancement away from it, whatever
it
> is, and you destroy it, you don't simply make it less pleasing to the eye,
> as you would if you took the calligraphy away from some
non-concrete/visual
> poem that had been fancied up.

But.  But, but, but ...  That only applies (and you're quite right, it does
there) to enhanced typographical, not strict typographical concrete poetry.
The later *can* be transposed without too much loss, if any.  (As cf. the
way Edwin Morgan's concrete poetry moves from text to text and font to
font.)

> (I'm aware I ran with my ideas and probably went way digressive.)

No.  I disagree with what you're saying, but it seems pertinent.

>  > Subsequently, Eddie never made this
> > distinction between his concrete and line poetry, nor when he reprinted
> > poems from +The Second Life+.
>
> Which, sorry to say, is why he's not thought as important for visual
poetry
> or concrete poetry as he might have been.  He didn't see the
possibilities.

I'm beginning -- and this is, for once, serious -- to see part of our
difficulty.  You're drawn to one side of what was once concrete poetry
(enhanced) and I'm more interested in the other side (strict).  Fair dos.

But while it might be fair to say that Edwin Morgan and the way he was
working isn't of interest to current visual poets (and I can quite see why
this should be the case) you can't therefore go on to deny he was a concrete
poet.  He just wasn't the kind of concrete poet you like.  (I could equally
dis Ian Hamilton Finlay and comparable current creators -- great visual and
plastic artists, but not poets.)

As to "He didn't see the possibilities," give me a break.  He *invented* the
form of the emergent poem, among other things.  And as to not seeing the
possibilities, what about "The First Men on Mercury" in +From Glasgow to
Saturn+ (1973)?  He pushed the techniques and discoveries of concrete poetry
back into line poetry;  Finlay carried the visual element out of poetry and
into simple plastic art with a vestigial semantic element.  You go for one
side of the movement, I go for the other.  I doubt if we're ever going to
agree on this, Bob, simply agree to differ.

> It never crashed&burned.  Like almost anything new and good, it made an
> initial sensation, then faded, then revived not so sensationally, and
> evolved into a mature art.

I think where we'd disagree here is over "faded, then revived" -- your take
on it, not mine.  But see above ...

> From my limited Americocentric viewpoint, the

I think this is another problem -- we're arguing from different contexts and
backgrounds, nah?

> Solt and Williams anthologies splashed concrete poetry, by that name
(though
> both had poems with purely graphic elements), into view, it got discussed
a
> bit, then the public went on to something else while the poets involved
> mostly kept working, and new poets, inspired by the anthologies, joined
in,
> some of them major, in my view, like d a levy and bp Nichol, and branched
> out, and started calling themselves visual poets.

K, I'll defer to you here -- I simply don't know this material.  (I think
part of this disagreement may be that concrete poetry played/out differently
on different sides of the Pond.)

[SNIP]

> You can't take the
> lessons of concrete poetry into standard poetry without making it visual
> poetry.

Not your kind, but mine you can.  (See above, "First Men on Mercury".)

> Do you know John Furneval?  Another important Brit.

Hadn't come across him till you mentioned him, to be honest.  I did a quick
google and what I saw struck me as painting, not poetry.  A few semantic
elements here and there, but that's par for the course with BritArt these
days.  But that was a quick&glib trip -- I'll try and come back to him later
with proper attention.

> Yes, sound poetry evolved from concrete/visual poetry.  And maybe in some
> cases vice versa.

K.

> > Enough of sound poetry for the moment, unless Bob wants to pick up on
it.
>
> I don't know much about it.  I have made a couple of poems I consider
sound
> poems, though, one of which appeared in an anthology Bob Cobbing's press
> published.

Well, there you are, that lot wouldn't touch my work with a barge pole.  Too
mainstream.  <g>  But good on you in getting published there -- it's a class
act, even if it's not my class act.  I'm impressed.

Anyway, let's drop sound poetry (unless anyone else on the list wants to
pick this up?) as neither of us seems particularly into it.

> > I had a concrete poet for tea the other day --
> >       he tasted delicious
>
> No comment.

                <g>

> > Ever since I first encountered your argument around this what seems like
> > centuries ago now, Bob, I've been trying to put my finger on what
bothers
> > me, and I think I've finally got it -- you seem to be drawing a total
> > distinction between form and content.
>
> Right.

Well, at least we've got that clear.

[Form and content]

> They interact.  So what?  Color interacts with shape.  Does that mean we
> can't separate one from the other for discussion?

Does colour interact with shape?  I'd say no (and if you push me, I'll go
back to Locke's distinction between primary and secondary qualities), so to
me that's a false analogy.  Colour and shape are distinct aspects of an
object, not interrelated in the way that form and content are (for me).

        [ANNE SEXTON]

I'm going to stop here for the moment, and come back to the Sexton issue.  I
think, anyway, it's a different kettle of cattle, so maybe should be split
from the concrete/visual argument.

So more later.

        The Stone Dormouse




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 06:38:15 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 06:38:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (concrete/visual)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<044c01c55c59$4f1a5e20$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <004301c55c5e$dd87e880$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> > only mentioned in the same context *913* times.  Well, that's only
> google,
>> > a
>> > crude tool, and you could argue that on some of the occasions where
> visual
>> > poetry occurs, concrete poetry will be implicitly included, but that
>> > doesn't
>> > work with the concrete-only hits.
>>
>> Seems meaningless to me.
>
> It may be trivial but it isn't meaningless -- a large difference.
>
>>  Some people call it one thing, some another.
>
> That's the very *point*, isn't it?  Your original assertion was that most
> people (was it?) referred to concrete poetry as visual poetry.  You were 
> the
> one who said this, and I've tried to demonstrate it ain't so -- you can't
> just dismiss this by sneering at the evidence I provide.  At least 
> challenge
> what I say rather than giving a simple rejection.  I could challenge my 
> own
> evidence better than you have done, but I don't see why I should do your
> work for you.

But I don't see that you've established it as not so, Robin.  I'm saying 
that the terms are interchangeable--I'd say, for just about everybody. 
Naturally, if someone wants to discuss some particular poem or poet, he's 
much more likely to use one of the two terms, not both.

The ones for whom the two terms are not interchangeable are poets doing 
poems using graphics who for some reason dislike the concrete poets--for 
political reasons, or because of their rules, or whatever--and icky-picky 
analysts (like me) who were around at the time of the name-change, and have 
studied concrete poetry enough to understand that it was mostly a subset of 
mixed word and picture poems which excluded non-typographical graphics, 
which visual poetry does not, among other small differences.

--Bob 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 06:45:12 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 06:45:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com><009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin><033c01c55bf7$cd75db30$44169c51@Robin><035e01c55bfc$51853de0$44169c51@Robin><50C7551A-E311-4F69-ADDD-238930169F69@mac.com><038a01c55c03$5a49cb10$44169c51@Robin><01d301c55c11$c08e5540$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<03f701c55c2a$b8239a50$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <005101c55c5f$d5d239a0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>
>> > Another assumption bites the dust ...
>>
>> Only if you assume that quantity of readers is more important than
> quality.
>>
>> --Bob
>
> Well, to chuck the ball back to you, Bob, what evidence have you that the
> buyers&readers of Pope before 1795 or after 1830 were of a more
> discriminating quality than in that particular period?

I'm saying that the best readers of the time--the romantic poets--looked 
down on the Pope school.  Hazlitt did, too, didn't he?

> Look, I'm making no great claims for this, simply that the fact is that 
> more
> new editions of Alexander Pope were published between 1795 and 1830 than 
> in
> any comparable period.  And that this runs counter to Received Opinion 
> that
> Pope was persona non grata at this time.

When Rod McKuen was hot--in America (do you even know of him?)--would you 
have considered him persona grata?  I'm just saying that the view that 
Pope's reputation descended during the romantic age is not refuted by the 
many editions of his work that may have been published then (however 
interesting that is).  Reputations depend on reputation-makers, not on the 
masses, or the equivalent of the masses among poetry readers.

--Bob 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu May 19 07:14:34 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:14:34 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (concrete/visual)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><044c01c55c59$4f1a5e20$44169c51@Robin>
	<004301c55c5e$dd87e880$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <048201c55c63$f09b6280$44169c51@Robin>

> > people (was it?) referred to concrete poetry as visual poetry.  You were

> But I don't see that you've established it as not so, Robin.  I'm saying
> that the terms are interchangeable--I'd say, for just about everybody.

Well, let's take the 30,000 odd occasions where "concrete poetry" is
referred to without reference to "visual poetry".  That can't commute
forward as I think we'd both agree that visual poetry is later, so it has to
either refer to pre-visual poetry or current poetry playing by the Brazilian
Rules.

OK, the opposite argument doesn't apply -- I'd agree that some (many) people
now use "visual poetry to include concrete poetry.  (Or rather, I'll take
your word for it -- you know more than me in this area, pretty obviously.)

And I'm simply running the raw google figures -- I haven't gone behind any
of the numbers to see what's actually said, let alone the 100,000 total
hits.  How long would that take?  (Well, I suppose I should at least have
sampled a few.)

Um, I think I've just dug myself into a corner here, so I'll drop this.

> Naturally, if someone wants to discuss some particular poem or poet, he's
> much more likely to use one of the two terms, not both.

But surely the very fact of having the two terms, and chosing one *rather*
than the other to discuss a particular poet -- talking about X as a concrete
poet one minute and Y as a visual poet the next -- implies that there's some
difference between the two?

> The ones for whom the two terms are not interchangeable are poets doing
> poems using graphics who for some reason dislike the concrete poets--for
> political reasons, or because of their rules, or whatever--and icky-picky
> analysts (like me) who were around at the time of the name-change, and
have
> studied concrete poetry enough to understand that it was mostly a subset
of
> mixed word and picture poems which excluded non-typographical graphics,
> which visual poetry does not, among other small differences.

I'm not sure I actually disagree with this, and I can't entirely see
(seriously) where you're disgreeing with me.  Are we into hairsplitting?
I'm happy to carry on the argument around the two terms in this area if you
want, but I think we'd better shift it backchannel in that case, since we
seem to have reached the point where we're carrying out a private dialogue
in public, and (probably) by this point if not before, straining the
patience of the list?  Nah?

Back to Sexton

        The Stone Dormouse




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu May 19 07:45:27 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:45:27 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com><009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin><033c01c55bf7$cd75db30$44169c51@Robin><035e01c55bfc$51853de0$44169c51@Robin><50C7551A-E311-4F69-ADDD-238930169F69@mac.com><038a01c55c03$5a49cb10$44169c51@Robin><01d301c55c11$c08e5540$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><03f701c55c2a$b8239a50$44169c51@Robin>
	<005101c55c5f$d5d239a0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <049101c55c68$40a70910$44169c51@Robin>

> I'm saying that the best readers of the time--the romantic poets--looked
> down on the Pope school.  Hazlitt did, too, didn't he?

Byron didn't, for one, Bob.   He rated Pope exceedingly highly.  As did Jane
Austen.  Is Crabbe too early to count?  But I'm not disagreeing that most of
the Romantics -- especially the early ones -- downgraded Pope, though they
had more agro for the post-Pope writers, the generation immediately before
their own (surprise, surprise).

But in some ways they had to, to carry out their own artistic agenda.  Like
the way Eliot slagged off Milton and praised Donne.  Bit of artistic
self-interest involved.

> When Rod McKuen was hot--in America (do you even know of him?)

Yeah

> --would you
> have considered him persona grata?

Well, not the world's greatest poet, but in his own area.  Maybe.

> I'm just saying that the view that
> Pope's reputation descended during the romantic age is not refuted by the
> many editions of his work that may have been published then (however
> interesting that is).

OK, accepted.  If you qualify it by "among certain poets", and remember
Byron.

> Reputations depend on reputation-makers, not on the
> masses, or the equivalent of the masses among poetry readers.

Yeah, right, but it's a lot easier to *make* a reputation than to destroy
one.  Eliot managed to, in a sense, make Donne's reputation (as Yeats was
majorly influential in creating an audience for Blake) but the combined
efforts of Eliot, Pound, Empson, Leavis et alia tried to demolish Milton,
but he's still being read today as if they'd never tried to knock him off
his pedestal.  And was being read at the height of the anti-Milton crusade.

Comes to Pope, anyway, the common reader of the nineteenth century who
bought the latest edition of his work was right and Wordsworth was wrong.

Robin




From uche at ogbuji.net  Thu May 19 07:45:50 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 05:45:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <BEB1010D.12224%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEB1010D.12224%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <1116503150.1829.266.camel@malatesta>

On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 14:26 -0500, David Graham wrote:

> I'm not aware of any such studies, which was part of my point:  confident
> assertions that poetry "drove readers away" or "lost its audience" are not
> made more believable by being re-asserted down the decades without
> substantive supporting evidence.  Not to mention flying in the face of
> considerable counter-evidence.

If there is considerable counter-evidence, you didn't provide it.  I
hasten to admit that I didn't provide any evidence for my part.  The
lack of such useful fodder on either side is my main reason for being
noncommittal about the argument.  Regardless of my personal beliefs, I'm
not interested in an abstract argument of well tried anecdotes and dicta
(at least not right now: usually I revel in such things, but time is
very scarce lately).


> I've mentioned before a long-ago essay by Donald Hall on the topic ("Poetry
> Popularity, & The Golden Age"), in which (unlike Dana Gioia et al., ad
> infinitum) he actually dug up a few statistics about sales figures to
> illustrate his contention that the "poetry is dead" crowd were not talking
> about verifiable reality, much of the time. It was published in 1982, and is
> now wildly out of date, and was hardly a systematic study to start with.
> Still, he did actually dig up some sales figures.

I also want to point out that I don't think anything along the lines of
"poetry is dead", or I wouldn't hang out on a list named "New Poetry".


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Thu May 19 07:48:17 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 05:48:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
In-Reply-To: <11757553.1116444131703.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <11757553.1116444131703.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1116503297.1829.268.camel@malatesta>

On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 15:22 -0400, Mike Snider wrote:
> Not a bit scientific, but sorry numbers they are.
> 
> The top 25 selling books in the poetry category (#nnnn is the sales rank in books-- I just took some samples):

[SNIP]

Fun compilation to read.  Thanks.  Did you snip this from a Web page?
If so, what's the link?

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May 19 08:06:34 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:06:34 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market
Message-ID: <009801c55c6b$340bc5d0$76ab3452@ANNY>

It might be interesting to notice that also Blogs are on the Market with shares and so on. Here is a link to the valuation of my _mostly night_ speculations:

http://blogshares.com/blogs.php?blog=http://annyballardini.blogspot.com%2F

if you scroll down you will notice that Henry Gould is more valued than Ron Silliman, and other surprises. Like the title of my blog: Narcissus' End instead of Narcissul' Works.

Take care,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 19 08:13:51 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:13:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <1da.3c69d9de.2fbcf53c@cs.com><009401c55bf0$a62fb430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<032301c55bf3$77259760$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <000c01c55c6c$3b6ab740$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

No, if they'd only sold one you'd be down in the 2 million stratum.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales


> Hamilton  1,399,000  on the amazon.co.uk ranking.
>
> (I think that means they sold one copy of my book once.  If that.  It may 
> be
> a default ranking.)
>
>                The Stone Dormouse
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From mandolin at mac.com  Thu May 19 08:22:46 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:22:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
In-Reply-To: <1116503297.1829.268.camel@malatesta>
References: <11757553.1116444131703.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1116503297.1829.268.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <11520440.1116505366940.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 07:49AM, Uche Ogbuji <uche at ogbuji.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 15:22 -0400, Mike Snider wrote:
>> Not a bit scientific, but sorry numbers they are.
>> 
>> The top 25 selling books in the poetry category (#nnnn is the sales rank in books-- I just took some samples):
>
>[SNIP]
>
>Fun compilation to read.  Thanks.  Did you snip this from a Web page?
>If so, what's the link?
>
>-- 
>Uche Ogbuji

I did a little work to put it together.

Go to Amazon, and click "books" on the sidebar -- or the direct url is http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/17/ref=br_bh_1_li/103-0154501-3612621 --

Choose a category, and in one of the top link rows is a button "Top Sellers."  For poetry, the link is  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/new-for-you/top-sellers/-/books/10248/books/2/ref=pd_hn_ts_b/103-0154501-3612621

You might have to reassamble that link, depending on your mail client.

For the sales rank of a book in the list, click its link and  scroll down to "Product Details."

Ted Kooser's Delights and Shadow, btw, is #1 in Poetry last hour, with a book rank of 758. Woohoo!

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Thu May 19 08:42:28 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 8:42:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (concrete/visual) free verse v. vis-po
Message-ID: <200505191242.j4JCgSBA005543@mail1.atl.registeredsite.com>

9

It?s ridiculous that free verse and visual poetry -- or perhaps I should say 
?concrete poetry,? and the reasons for this are found in the contentions that 
follow -- should ever be at odds.  If the poet -- if the free verse poet, say -- 
should be so moved as to seek expression in ?the form? of the concrete 
poem, then he ought to do so, and period.  It?s just what concrete poetry 
needs -- an inspiration of new spirit!  Concrete poetry, as a form, ought to 
always be available to the poet, should the spirit move him.  (I see concrete 
poetry as in a kind of stasis, awaiting the attention of the poet, and the 
application of poetry.)  

But concrete poetry, alas, she ain?t what she used to be; she has evolved (or 
maybe I should say, devolved!).  She has become ?visual poetry.?  And this 
is not a matter of nomenclature only; the difference is substantive!  Concrete 
(or shape, or pattern, or typewriter) poetry has left the realm of literature for 
the realm of graphic art (or, digital art, really).  Has this been ?for all intents 
and purposes??  That the endeavor still takes for itself the title ?poetry? leads 
me to think that there were no intents or purposes about it, that this move is 
not deliberate.  I would say the major reson for this move is the shift from 
typewriters to the word processor, the change in text formatting tools.  (And 
albeit monospace typefaces are available, and the ease with which one can 
manipulate text converted to image, it seems technology -- as such dedicated 
if not directed to immanent ends -- has trumped poetry.)  

It seems that just because the piece has some elements of language in it -- be 
it a letter or a word or some text -- that justifies its calling itself ?poetry.?  
Why is this a form, or some sub-genre, of poetry, and not more rightly a 
work of graphic or digital art?  What about it is ?poetic??  And how to locate 
its poetic elements!  Even Cummings (?ah gwonyuhdoanfool me?) -- who I 
do not consider a ?concrete poet? but a poet first and foremost -- infuses his 
?poems? with poetry, or the poetic thought one is accustomed to find in, say, 
the haiku.  Cummings begins in poetry, and not in a sketch of disarticulate 
words (an extreme and fanciful tmesis, I would say).  The difference, and 
the difference it makes, broadens by analogy.  

?Visual poetry? is gladly, if without intention, dispossessing itself of its last 
links to poetry and to literature -- and of its right to call itself poetry!  

But what if visual poetry should claim for itself a place in graphic art, can 
the visual poet compete with the artist?  Is the visual poet a digital artist?  
Maybe we should ask, in what way does the visual poet participate in 
poetry!  

What follows, should you dare, are some excerpts from an essay I wrote in 
the form of an afterword and addendum that appeared along with some 
?visual poetry? that I published at eratio.  You can read the entire text, and 
the footnotes, in situ by clicking over to:  

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/nico_v_3.html


  Rosmarie Waldrop, in her short essay, "A Basis of Concrete Poetry," ? 
states a fair proposition: "We do not usually see words, we read them, 
which is to say we look through them at their significance, their contents.  
Concrete poetry is first of all a revolt against this transparency of the word. . 
. ."  She says, "While poetry in general uses the material aspects of the word 
as functional in the 'poetic information' process in poems about whatever 
subject . . . concrete poetry makes the sound and shape of words its explicit 
field of investigation.  Concrete poetry is about words. . . .  This does not 
mean that concrete poets want to divorce the physical aspects of the word 
from its meaning. . . .  Words are not colors or lines: their semantic 
dimension is an integral part of them.  In order to destroy meaning you 
would also have to destroy the word as a physical object: you would have to 
atomize it into letters, fragments. . . ."  She cites the Noigandres group 
(whose name is taken from Pound's "Canto XX") saying, ". . . they seemed 
to intend exactly that. . . .  But the name is more polemical than the 
Noigandres manifesto, which makes clear that these poets intend to work 
consciously with all three dimensions of the word, with its 'verbivocovisual' 
nature.   What they are against is not meaning but representation." That is to 
say, they (the Noigandres group, founded by Augusto and Haroldo de 
Campos) are not against meaning, but naming, because to name would be to 
point away, to a reality outside.  "Their intention," says Waldrop, "is anti-
mimetic."  It is important to note, that it is the intention of the poets that their 
work should be anti-mimetic, but as for the work itself, as for that "reality in 
itself," how, if it is to have meaning, can it not be in some sense mimetic?  
To mean, to signify, must correspond to something other, even if that 
something other were a mirror image of itself.  "It is a structure which 
explores elements of language itself rather than one which uses language to 
explore something else.  The parallel to the non-representational painters . . . 
is explicit."  Explicit, maybe, but not complete.  "It is the clear opposite of 
the Romantic notion of organic form where content is structure, i.e., where 
content determines the structure, the form.  With the concrete poets it is the 
structure which determines the content.  The emphasis is formalist rather 
than expressive."  And yet, in certain instances, ". . . a spatial arrangement 
couples with, or even generates, equivalences on the level of sound and 
meaning."  It is these "equivalences," or what I would call 
complementarities, ? that seem to me to constitute the basis, the basis, of 
"concrete poetry" (that is to say, concrete poetry in a generic sense). ?    

      Waldrop writes, "If the real concrete text only represents itself and is 
identical with what it shows, we can immediately rule out shaped poems 
which illustrate a content, e.g., George Herbert's 'Easter Wings' or 
Apollinaire's 'calligrammes.'  Let us also, for the moment, rule out those 
works which go below the word unit, which become visual works using 
language elements."  Here, I believe, we have the outlines of three distinct 
types of concrete poetry: Let's call the first type "concrete" and here find that 
text that is identical with what it shows, this is the anti-mimetic text, the 
reality in itself, the text that means but does not name.  Let's call the next 
type, "shape," and here find, in addition to the aforementioned, John 
Hollander's "Swan and Shadow."  And let us, but provisionally, call the 
third type "abstract" and say that here "language elements" are not employed 
as signals-to-meaning but as symbols suggestive of a system of meaning, a 
thought structure.        

      I think we can safely say of all three types that each is, in a sense, a 
"reality in itself."  Moreover, to the degree that each type presents, or is, a 
spatial arrangement (and to the extent that such presents, or is, or is 
perceived to be, a shape, a figure, an outline, a pattern, or to be meaningful 
or significant visually), I think we can safely say of all three types that each 
is, or presents, an eidos.  And on that basis, each type -- "concrete," 
"shape," "abstract" -- is, I maintain, a type of "eidetic poetry."  But this is 
not to restrict "eidos" to a form that is perceived only visually, for while we 
may speak of an eidetic element that is given to instantaneous apprehension, 
as per to look upon, we can also speak of an eidetic element that is given to 
conscious intellection, for indeed while it is one thing to see a spatial 
arrangement, it is another thing to know it as meaningful (and indeed, as 
significant). ||        

      Let's consider for a moment the "real concrete text," that instance of 
concrete poetry that Ms. Waldrop describes.  I think we can find a useful 
clarification in drawing a distinction between this and "poetry in general."  
Consider, if you will, the case of "poetry in general," I offer here a simple 
proposition: "The poem" exists on the page, in concrete language, in the 
form of a deposition ("a putting down"), but the poetry exists, or rather 
comes into being or is realized, in the mind (via the conscious intellection) of 
the reader.  While "the poem" exists in deposition, the poetry resides with 
the reader (the "interpretant," let us say).  Now where concerns concrete 
poetry, but specifically the concrete poetry that is that "real concrete text," 
we can say that the whereness of the poetry of concrete poetry is at the level 
of that deposition.  Now bear in mind, this is not to say of that "real concrete 
text" that it does not have or show an eidos (a form, an eidetic form), as in 
fact this eidos is this "text's" entire raison d'etre. ?        

     We'll skip over the second type of concrete poetry (the "shaped poem") 
except to mention that in Herbert's "Easter-wings" and in Hollander's "Swan 
and Shadow" we find instances of the consummate working out (working 
together) of both the eidetic and poetic elements (both serve to complete each 
other, as complementarities, and both are generative the one of the other), 
and we'll move on to the third type, the "abstract" concrete poem.  It may 
seem a contradiction in terms to speak of an abstract concrete poem, that is 
unless we bear in mind a keen distinction: Quite simply, concrete is to the 
senses as abstract is to the mind.  Consider: A picture drawn in words, 
however detailed or explicit, will always be an abstraction (literally a 
drawing-away, a separation) from nature requiring conscious intellection on 
the part of the reader, whereas to see a picture is a matter of instantaneous 
apprehension -- it is there (it has whereness), it appears to the senses, it has 
a material, perceptible existence, it is a "reality in itself." **  We must bear in 
mind, that the "concrete" in "concrete poetry" has always, above all, been 
rooted in this distinction, in this sense of instantaneous apprehension -- as 
distinct from the conscious intellection of words. ??  There is no 
contradiction, then, to considering a "concrete poetry" that is both at basis 
"concrete" and formally abstract (that is at basis flat and particular while 
formally loft and gerneral). ??  

     Why has concrete poetry become abstract?  Suffice it to say here that we 
must consider our answer in regard to both the "shaped" and the "concrete" 
poem, that poets have simply given up on depicting shapes and figures from 
nature.  I don't see this as a matter of talent or ability, but rather, and what is 
more crucial, as a further outgrowth of the "dissociation of sensibility" 
which while having its origin elsewhere (and in another time) has never 
ceased to hold sway (and today, especially among the avant-garde). ??  
Today we might call this a fragmentation of sensibility, in which the 
individual exists in "exploded view" (a consequence, perhaps, of being 
"analyzed" to pieces, pieces which relate but find their relation to be 
problematical).  Interest has turned inward, has become intra-subjective, in 
the knowledge of and in search of and in the exploration of a transcendent 
system of meaning.  If not the collective unconscious, the occupation is with 
relationality as such (the very nature of interrelation, of interdependence, of 
mutual aver).  If it is not to know, and to subdue, Langue -- the current, 
great preoccupation -- it is to know and to subdue the self, or perhaps to 
know and to subdue the world writ large.  While willing, and able, to turn 
from naming, there remains an unwillingness, or are unableness, to turn 
from meaning.  Even the signs turn inward and become symbols, unable to 
say with certainty but only to suggest (to show, and to tell, indirectly).

Notes

* Rosmarie Waldrop, "A Basis of Concrete Poetry," in The Avant-Garde 
Tradition in Literature, ed. Richard Kostelanetz (Buffalo, NY: Prometheus 
Books, 1982), p. 315 ff.  All quotes are from this essay.  

? Cf. Waldrop, op. cit. Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino

? NB: There is a subtle and important distinction between a complementarity 
and an equivalence.  While an equivalence is an equality of value (say, for 
instance, the illustration of a content), a complementarity is held to supply a 
complement, to complete or to make complete.  The complementarity is in no 
wise tangential, but is of, or toward, the constitutive essence of the 
composition (of the object).  I maintain, the complementarities of eidetic 
poetry (if not of all "concrete poetry") are equally (though not necessarily in 
extent or to degree) and essentially generative one of the other.  

? Cf. The Penguin Dictionary of Literary Terms and Literary Theory, ed. J. 
A. Cuddon (3rd ed., 1992).  The entry for "concrete poetry/verse" (p. 184) 
reads in part, "The object is to present each poem as a different shape.  It is 
thus a matter of pictorial typography which produces 'visual poetry.' "  The 
entry for "pattern poetry" (p. 693) reads in part, "Probably Oriental in 
origin, this kind of poem has its lines arranged to represent a physical object, 
or to suggest action/motion, mood/feeling; but usually shape and motion." 
     Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics, ed. A. Preminger, F. J. 
Warnke and O. B. Hardison (enlarged ed., 1974).  The entry for "pattern 
poetry" (p. 607) reads in part, "Verse in which the disposition of the lines is 
such as to represent some physical object or to suggest motion, place, or 
feeling in accord with the idea expressed in the words.  The pattern poem, or 
'shaped' poem, first appears in Western-world literature in the works of 
certain Gr. bucolic poets, notably in a few poems of Simias of Rhodes (ca. 
300 B.C.), later much imitated."  NB: Where concerns complementarities, 
the operative words here are in accord with the idea expressed in the words.  
Thus the pattern, or shape, and the idea expressed in the words, must 
complement or complete each other, and must be generative the one of the 
other!      

     In this sense, "concrete poetry" (and "pattern" and "shaped") would be 
synonymous with "visual poetry."    
     When considering the history of "concrete poetry" (which is to say, of its 
forerunners, all which are by degrees approximations) it is most fruitful to 
take into account all the various names by which it has been called.  
"Concrete poetry" is a development of carmen figuratum ("shaped poem").  
At this point in time, it would seem that "visual poetry" (or, "vis-po") is a 
recent development of concrete poetry.  Each term seems to denote both a 
generality (a genus) and a specificity (a species).  It would seem that of all 
the terms in current usage, "visual poetry" is the most general, while being 
also the least informed.      

|| As for this eidos (as we speak of it here as the visual component or 
complementarity), I think it is this aspect of the concrete-poetry composition 
that Mary Ellen Solt is referring to when she says of concrete poetry (in her 
footnote to "Moonshot Sonnet") that it is "supranational, supralingual."  
And this can be so because there is no language barrier interfering with the 
instantaneous apprehension of the object (its shape or pattern, its spatial 
arrangement).  Here we find the truly supranational nature of eidetic poetry.  
     But this is not to reduce eidetic poetry to its eidetic (i.e., "visual") 
complementarity only, as then we would be acknowledging only one half of 
the equation.  We must also acknowledge its poetic elements, its "lingual" or 
language complementarity, as here we find an eidos, a form, of a different 
nature, the eidos, or form, of the noun.  

? Bear in mind the difference between the "concrete" eidos and that eidos 
that accompanies the text of "poetry in general."  In the case of "poetry in 
general," here we find an eidos that is properly understood to be a margin 
and indentation pattern, this pattern or scheme, or, template (I call this the 
"poetic template") signals to the reader a number of things, least of which is 
"I am a poem."  Compare the outward eidetic form of a sonnet to, say, Solt's 
"Moonshot Sonnet" or to Christian Morgenstern's "Fisches Nachtgesang" 
or to this untitled piece by Jukka-Pekka Kervinen.    

** NB: The forms found in the first type of concrete poetry are rarely found 
in nature, unlike those found in the second type, which usually are.  This is 
important if the "forms" found in the first type are to be considered 
"nonrepresentational," and a "reality in itself," and not a depiction (not 
mimetic) from nature!  We may ask, then, just what kind of forms are to be 
found in the first type of concrete poetry, in the "real concrete text"?  I don't 
think it will be an imposition on these works (to the contrary, it may increase 
them) to say of these forms that they are Platonic.  (Cf. Plato, Philebus, 51 
c-d.  "I mean not the figures of creatures in real life.  I mean a straight line, a 
curve and the plane and solid figures.  These are not realtively beautiful, but 
are beautiful in their very nature."  And we should not be surprised to find 
in the third type, in the "abstract" type, that the same kind of forms apply.      
     "Concrete is to the senses as abstract is to the mind" can also be 
conceived of as "concrete is to what shows as abstract is to what tells."  In 
the preamble to my e-book Go Mirrored (xPress(ed), 2003) I present this 
analogy: "We might say, then, that the 'visual' component of the concrete 
poem is to the analogue clock what the semantic component is to the digital 
clock, in that the one shows what the other tells."    Gregory Vincent St. 
Thomasino

?? Compare/contrast this idea of "instantaneous apprehension" with Pound's 
authoritative assertion on the Image in the "Imagist" poem ("An 'Image' is 
that which presents an intellectual and emotional complex in an instant of 
time. . . .  It is the presentation of such a 'complex' instantaneously. . . .") and 
with Richard Kostelanetz's notion of the "imaged word."  

?? The word basis has the Greek root bainein, "to go."  To be at basis is to 
be at "the get go," to be "from the word go" (or, "from the very beginning").  



http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/nico_v_3.html

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/contact.html

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com



Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino

9




From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu May 19 08:55:22 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:55:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best Sellers
Message-ID: <24.714d3fd1.2fbde6ba@aol.com>

Two more ways to put your finger on the pulse of what's being purchased & 
borrowed in the U.S.

*Library Journal* and *Publishers Weekly* publish an annual "Best Sellers" 
list for a variety of genres, including poetry.   They also identify the 
parameters for arriving at their figures. 

They also include a column entitled " The Books Most Borrowed in U.S. 
Libraries" (again, according to a variety of genres).

<http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA155591?display=searchResults&stt=001&
text=poetry+best+sellers&&>


Here's the list of best selling poetry titles for the year 2000.   
Fascinating bedfellows: Strand, Sapphire, Rumi, Angelou, Graham (sorry, David, not 
you!), Emily!   For some reason, I can't bring up anything more recent than the 
year 2000.

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Library Journal* Poetry Best Sellers
Staff -- 4/1/2000

1. Vice: New and Selected Poems [HC]
Ai. Norton. 1999. ISBN 0-393-04705-9. $25. 

2. Americans' Favorite Poems [HC]
Robert Pinsky & Maggie Dietz, eds.
Norton. 1999. ISBN 0-393-04820-9. $25.

3. Thoughts [HC]
Tionne Watkins. HarperEntertainment: HarperCollins. 1999. ISBN 0-06-105183-7. 
$19.95. 

4. The Oxford Book of English Verse [HC]
Christopher Ricks, ed.
Oxford Univ. 1999. ISBN 0-19-214182-1. $39.95.

5. How To Read a Book and Fall in Love with Poetry [HC]
Edward Hirsch.
Harcourt. 1999. ISBN 0-15-100419-6. $23. 

6. Fooling with Words: A Celebration of Poets and Their Craft [HC]
Bill Moyers, ed.
Morrow. 1999. ISBN 0-688-17346-2. $20.

7. Swarm [HC]
Jorie Graham.
Ecco: HarperCollins. 2000. ISBN 0-88001-695-7. $23. 

8. The New African Poetry: An Anthology [HC]
Tanure Ojaide, ed.
Three Continents. 1999. ISBN 0-89410-879-4. $49.95.

9. Blues for All the Changes: New Poems [HC]
Nikki Giovanni.
Morrow. 1999. ISBN 0-688-15698-3. $15. 

10. Poems: The Weight of Oranges, Miner's Pond, Skin Divers [HC]
Anne Michaels.
Knopf. 2000. ISBN 0-375-40140-7. $25.

11. On the Bus with Rosa Parks: Poems [HC]
Rita Dove.
Norton. 1999. ISBN 0-393-04722-9. $21. 

12. The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry [HC]
Alan Kaufman, ed.
Thunder's Mouth. 1999. ISBN 1-56025-236-7. $34.95.

13. The Complete Collected Poems of Maya Angelou [HC]
Maya Angelou.
Random. 1994. ISBN 0-679-42895-X. $24. 

14. The Poems of Emily Dickinson [HC]
Emily Dickinson.
Belknap: Harvard Univ. 1999. ISBN 0-674-67624-6. $29.95.

15. Phenomenal Woman [HC]
Maya Angelou.
Random. 2000. ISBN 0-375-50406-0. $19.95. 

16. Love Poems [HC]
Nikki Giovanni.
Morrow. 1997. ISBN 0-688-14989-8. $13.

17. Blizzard of One [HC]
Mark Strand.
Knopf. 1999. ISBN 0-375-40139-3. $21. 

18. Life Doesn't Frighten Me [HC]
Maya Angelou.
Stewart, Tabori & Chang. 1998. ISBN 1-55670-288-4. $17.95.

19. The Glance: Songs of Soul-Meeting [HC]
Rumi.
Viking. 1999. ISBN 0-670-88755-2. $18. 

20. Black Wings & Blind Angels [HC]
Sapphire.
Knopf. 1999. ISBN 0-679-44630-3. $20.

This list includes titles most in demand by librarians prior to announced 
publication date from Baker & Taylor Books nationwide.


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From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 19 09:36:04 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:36:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market
References: <009801c55c6b$340bc5d0$76ab3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <003401c55c77$b7015a70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Anny...can you explain this at all???????


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 8:06 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market


  It might be interesting to notice that also Blogs are on the Market with shares and so on. Here is a link to the valuation of my _mostly night_ speculations:

  http://blogshares.com/blogs.php?blog=http://annyballardini.blogspot.com%2F

  if you scroll down you will notice that Henry Gould is more valued than Ron Silliman, and other surprises. Like the title of my blog: Narcissus' End instead of Narcissul' Works.

  Take care,

  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



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From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 19 09:38:38 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:38:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
References: <20050518191559.80510.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006001c55c78$149fb910$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Rosie - an interesting dichotomy. Trying to figure out which side I'd put myself on, and I think it's "entertainer."


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rosie Shkodrov 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 3:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


  Poetry as a rebel; jazz as an entertainer? (not that the entertainer can't be rebellious, or the rebel entertaining... profit wise this makes sense to me -- rebels speak because they need to; entertainers -- to get what they can for their wits...) no? 

  Rosie

  The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
    This goes back to your other question -- how do we measure such things? I'd 
    guess the reverse -- that there was never a time when poetry remotely 
    approached the popularity of swing-era jazz.


    Tad Richards
    www.opus40.org
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Uche Ogbuji" 
    To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" 

    Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:23 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


    > Uche:
    >
    >> In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
    >> that have helped drive away a lot of the public
    >
    > The Old Mole:
    >
    >> That's not necessarily a condemnation. Charlie Parker drove a lot of the
    >> public away from jazz, but it would hard to argue that he was bad for 
    >> jazz,
    >! > American music, or American culture.
    >
    > I think there's a huge difference in scale. The drop in audience from
    > the big band era to the bebop era is a lot less drastic than the drop in
    > the audience of poetry in the 60s, as I reckon.
    >
    > With the advent of fusion, Jazz secured a very strong, if overall
    > minority audience, and a much greater proportion of Jazz musicians these
    > days can make a good living from the art than of poets.
    >
    > -- 
    > Uche Ogbuji
    > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net
    > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > New-Poetry mailing list
    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
    >
    > 


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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu May 19 11:14:08 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:14:08 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (concrete/visual) free verse v. vis-po
References: <200505191242.j4JCgSBA005543@mail1.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <04ed01c55c85$684a6940$44169c51@Robin>

Dear Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino,

While it will be I'm sure quite fascinating to read your words on this
subject (though it might have been more considerate simply to post the URL
rather than including the entire text, and let those who wanted to go to the
site and chose for themselves whether or not to read your piece), it would
have been nice if you had made at least some small token gesture towards the
discussion that Bob Grumman and I have been conducting, since it bears on
several issues you deal with.

There is a difference between dialogue and pontificating.  I feel a  list is
more suited to the former rather the later.

I may be wrong, of course.

Robin Hamilton

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:42 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (concrete/visual) free verse v. vis-po


> 9
>
> It's ridiculous that free verse and visual poetry -- or perhaps I should
say
> "concrete poetry," and the reasons for this are found in the contentions
that
> follow -- should ever be at odds.  If the poet -- if the free verse poet,
say -- 




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May 19 11:33:18 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:33:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <1116503150.1829.266.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <BEB21BEE.122AA%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A few thoughts for context, then I've had enough for this trip around the
old carousel.

As Donald Hall points out at entertaining length in the essay I cited,
there's a rather venerable tradition now of essays lamenting the sad state
of contemporary poetry.

Such essays often assume that poetry has "lost its audience," and then
typically provide eulogies or remedies.  Dana Gioia's famous "Can Poetry
Matter," unwritten at the time of Hall's essay, provides one of the most
entertaining and substantial entries in the tradition, but does manage to
confirm many of Hall's points.  (Gioia later modified his position some,
faced with facts that tended to undercut his argument--such as the
proliferation of online poetry, the renaissance of performance poetry,
etc.--but to my knowledge he never retracted his shaky key point.)

I think Gioia's most clever maneuver is the claim that poetry has retreated
into the academy, and thus, despite the swelling numbers of readers, has
remained a "coterie" taste.  This is a rhetorical flourish, but fails to
account for the degree to which the academy, since WWII, has tended to merge
with the category of "educated audience."  But even Gioia has had to account
for the proliferation of poetry in non-academic settings, such as cowboy
poetry readings and the multiplicity of online venues.

In any case, one frequent assumption in such arguments is that there was a
time, a golden age, when It Was Not So.  Longfellow and Tennyson are always
mentioned.  So any time I hear about poetry losing its audience or driving
readers away, I think of Hall's essay.

Hall points out, via a few tidbits of sales figures, that more poetry is
being sold today, by any yardstick, than at most times in the past.  I'll
stipulate that his is an anecdotal and very partial survey, but his numbers
are sufficient to disprove the very frequent complaint about poetry driving
its readers away after the modernist revolution.

In contrast, poetry is more popular than ever before, he asserts (this was
in 1982, btw--and I don't believe sales have declined since then).  (Also
btw, Hall is well aware that sales figures do not equate with quality--you
can't attack his argument on those grounds.)

In any case, what seems most interesting to me is the persistence of the
myth--why, despite all sorts of obvious evidence, many people seem to *need*
to believe in a decline of poetry's audience.

Sometimes the alleged culprit is free verse, sometimes it's academic
elitism, sometimes it's postmodernism, sometimes it's lack of narrative,
sometimes it's navel-gazing confessionalism, sometimes it's vaporous
multicultural identity politics, etc.  But whatever the specific diagnosis,
the notion that poetry has declined in popularity in the past century is a
very persistent belief.

A hard belief to reconcile, I think, with the burgeoning numbers of books
being sold in the past half century, the mushrooming of writers' programs,
the omnipresence of poetry online, the renaissance of public poetry
readings, and all sorts of public visibility and attention, from National
Poetry month through the Bill Moyers phenomenon and your local slams.

Anyway, I take it that the argument is unkillable precisely because facts
and figures are not at issue, really, but beliefs.


on 5/19/05 6:45 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:

> On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 14:26 -0500, David Graham wrote:
> 
>> I'm not aware of any such studies, which was part of my point:  confident
>> assertions that poetry "drove readers away" or "lost its audience" are not
>> made more believable by being re-asserted down the decades without
>> substantive supporting evidence.  Not to mention flying in the face of
>> considerable counter-evidence.
> 
> If there is considerable counter-evidence, you didn't provide it.  I
> hasten to admit that I didn't provide any evidence for my part.  The
> lack of such useful fodder on either side is my main reason for being
> noncommittal about the argument.  Regardless of my personal beliefs, I'm
> not interested in an abstract argument of well tried anecdotes and dicta
> (at least not right now: usually I revel in such things, but time is
> very scarce lately).
> 
> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From uche at ogbuji.net  Thu May 19 12:50:03 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:50:03 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <BEB21BEE.122AA%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEB21BEE.122AA%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <1116521403.1829.286.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 10:33 -0500, David Graham wrote:

> Anyway, I take it that the argument is unkillable precisely because facts
> and figures are not at issue, really, but beliefs.

I agree with this, and think it applies to both sides of the question.
Thanks for the thoughtful wrap-up.  A lot for me to ponder and pursue,
and meanwhile, I think we can both amicably climb off the carousel, for
now...

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May 19 13:06:52 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:06:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market
References: <009801c55c6b$340bc5d0$76ab3452@ANNY>
	<003401c55c77$b7015a70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <007601c55c95$2722c600$bf2bb750@ANNY>

It was a surprise. It means that people (I notice that I was _bought_) speculate on blogs. Maybe someone can explain better.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Old Mole 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 3:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market


  Anny...can you explain this at all???????


  Tad Richards
  www.opus40.org
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: New Poetry 
    Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 8:06 AM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market


    It might be interesting to notice that also Blogs are on the Market with shares and so on. Here is a link to the valuation of my _mostly night_ speculations:

    http://blogshares.com/blogs.php?blog=http://annyballardini.blogspot.com%2F

    if you scroll down you will notice that Henry Gould is more valued than Ron Silliman, and other surprises. Like the title of my blog: Narcissus' End instead of Narcissul' Works.

    Take care,

    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
    Friedrich Nietzsche 



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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu May 19 13:18:00 2005
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:18:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market
In-Reply-To: <007601c55c95$2722c600$bf2bb750@ANNY>
References: <009801c55c6b$340bc5d0$76ab3452@ANNY>
	<003401c55c77$b7015a70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<007601c55c95$2722c600$bf2bb750@ANNY>
Message-ID: <20050519121555.Q26392@kpaul.spinweb.net>

it's a very addicting stock market simulator. instead of companies, 
though, people buy and sell shares in 'blogs' the value of the blog is 
calculated by how many people link to the blog in question. if anyone 
signs up, let me know as i've built up several billion dollars in game 
money over the years. you start with $500 ;)

it's also a pretty decent blog directory if you're not interested in the 
game.

so, below, it would mean Gould has more links pointing to his site and is 
'worth more' in the game.

-kpaul
http://www.mallasch.com


On Thu, 19 May 2005, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> It was a surprise. It means that people (I notice that I was _bought_) speculate on blogs. Maybe someone can explain better.
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: The Old Mole
>  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>  Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 3:36 PM
>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market
>
>
>  Anny...can you explain this at all???????
>
>
>  Tad Richards
>  www.opus40.org
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    From: Anny Ballardini
>    To: New Poetry
>    Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 8:06 AM
>    Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market
>
>
>    It might be interesting to notice that also Blogs are on the Market with shares and so on. Here is a link to the valuation of my _mostly night_ speculations:
>
>    http://blogshares.com/blogs.php?blog=http://annyballardini.blogspot.com%2F
>
>    if you scroll down you will notice that Henry Gould is more valued than Ron Silliman, and other surprises. Like the title of my blog: Narcissus' End instead of Narcissul' Works.
>
>    Take care,
>
>    Anny Ballardini
>    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star!
>    Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>    _______________________________________________
>    New-Poetry mailing list
>    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu May 19 13:46:08 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:46:08 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin>
	<01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin>

Ann Sexton's +The Awful Rowing Towards God+

"formal possibilities there that haven't been remotely explored."

> >> Name one, please.

Having finished rereading, part-way through with your question in mind, Bob,
I think I have the start of an answer.  What I'll say is what seems to me
unique to Awful Rowing, but implicit is that there are further possibilities
to be extended from what Sexton does there.

The central element seems to be that there are no (or very rarely) internal
pauses within her lines.  The lines are defined not by rhythm (though there
is an overall rhythm) but by syntactic unit or phrase, often linked to a
central image in the line.

(I think, though this isn't a formal point, that it ties into the way in
which the speaker isn't externally defined -- we know, in one sense, much
less of "Sexton" than we do, say, of "Lowell" in +Life Studies+.  The
speaker is created almost entirely through the images she uses, her
language, tone, etc., and I think this ties in with the way that the
controlling formal element is syntactic.)

The syntactic structuring (simply to create a catch-all term for what I'm
trying to describe) links into the way in which line lengths vary more than
the norm, but at the same time, the variation isn't arbitrary.

That for starters.  I can't think of anyone else who does quite this, but
there may be ... Suggestions?

> > I don't think (I hope) what resulted was imitation Ann Sexton, but she
> > sure
> > as hell gave me the key that unlocked a very specific form/content
problem
> > I
> > had -- no way could I write about what I wanted with the techniques I'd
up
> > to then accumulated.
>
> I would say that every free verse poet has a finally unique way of
> structuring a poem but that variable lineation is the non-unique technique
> used.

Yes, but it's the particular *way* that Sexton varies line length, as I said
above, that seems to me at the least ... unusual.

> You may simply not have found a structure for your poems you were
> satisfied until you saw hers.

Sure, but as I said to you earlier backchannel, I'd been deep in Plath for
years, so whatever it was I found in Sexton that "solved" my problem, it had
to be something that *wasn't* in Plath.  Bit anecdotal that, but that's the
best I can put it.

> My sorta like experience was in finally
> realizing the value of terminal line-breaks in the "wrong place," like
> between "the" and "pond," say.  This I would consider to have been a new
> technique when first done, not long ago (to any serious extent).

Oh, exactly, I can appreciate that, and I'd done it myself.  What Sexton is
doing, whatever it is, is almost heading in the *opposite* direction -- each
line a distinct phrasal unit, and *never* breaking across the phrase.

Incidentally, <terminal line-breaks in the "wrong place,">.  I don't know
who first did this, but it was a standard part of the way D.M.Black was
writing in the seventies.  I picked it up from David (though I tend not to
use it that often, for reasons I won't bore everyone with) but David used it
more and carried it further than most, even breaking across a word -- "...
any / -thing ...", stuff like that.  I'll see if I can find a concise
example in David's work at some point, and put my money where my mouth is.
(Remind me if I forget, Bob -- I'm sure you would anyway <g>.)

> Anyway, I'm saying you didn't pick up a new technique from Sexton, just a
> kind of rhythm that worked for you.

Rhythm was part of it, certainly, but it went beyond rhythm.  I'm not sure I
can defend this, but it does seem to me to link in with *what's* being said.
Almost, it controls the way the speaker presents themselves, and it only
works effectively with, I think, strong imagery.  Otherwise you've simply
got chopped-up prose.

> > It was something to do with using lines with no apparent length order
but
> > an
> > underlying coherence.  Vague I know, but the best I can manage at the
> > moment.  A more coherent answer if&when.

What I've written above is my revision of that initial vague observation.

> > That's, I think, part of what I'm seeing in Sexton -- a more extreme use
> > of
> > line break than in most free verse.

Actually (as will be apparent from what I said above) I no longer agree what
my earlier self said there.

> I don't know Sexton well, and don't like what I know of her stuff at all,
so
> can't say.  I would have trouble believing her lineation more liberated
than
> Cummings's, though, or anything by the concrete/visual poets.

Well, I'm talking specifically about +Awful Rowing Towards God+.  I first
came on her in Al Alvarez +The New Poetry+ anthology (does this run in the
States?) and until I came on ARTG, never really got that excited by her.
Now, I want to explore the earlier work.  Start from the beginning rather
than the end, I suppose.

> Think of how subject matter can be changed.  I would ask for a similarly
> recognizable change of technique before I could accept that any recent
poet
> has done anything technically new in conventional free verse.

I'm not sure this is a fair analogy, but damn me if I can think of how to
counter it, or even encounter it, at the moment.  I think it turns on how
significant the change is, and how far it has to go to be significant.  It's
a bit of stretch, but I'd see the shift in the iambic pentameter couplet
across, say, Jonson, Dryden, Pope, Johnson and Crabbe, to go no further as
at each point showing a "recognizable change of technique", all the time
nevertheless within the bounds of the rhymed iambic pentameter couplet.  But
I suspect you might not agree with this, Bob.

> > visual poetry and mathemateku
>
> It's "mathemaku," as I previously have politely refrained from telling
you.

Given that on a bad hair day, I can manage to mis-spell my own name, you
should be grateful that I got as close as I did.

> My apologies for short-changing you.

And my apologies for long-changing everyone else by the extent of this post.

        The Stone Dormouse




From shkodrov at yahoo.com  Thu May 19 14:18:44 2005
From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:18:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource
In-Reply-To: <006001c55c78$149fb910$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <20050519181845.12271.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com>

Tad -- entertainment -- that's all I live for! :) (then the rebel inside me -- a not very well articulated one though -- can enjoy the rebelious side of better spoken ones) 
 
Well, the wine is on me. Who's coming? All forms of poetry are welcome... 
 
Rosie
 
The nice thing about life is that it's filled with second chances.
~ Don DeLillo

The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
Rosie - an interesting dichotomy. Trying to figure out which side I'd put myself on, and I think it's "entertainer."
 
 
Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Rosie Shkodrov 
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


Poetry as a rebel; jazz as an entertainer? (not that the entertainer can't be rebellious, or the rebel entertaining... profit wise this makes sense to me -- rebels speak because they need to; entertainers -- to get what they can for their wits...) no? 

Rosie

The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
This goes back to your other question -- how do we measure such things? I'd 
guess the reverse -- that there was never a time when poetry remotely 
approached the popularity of swing-era jazz.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" 
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" 

Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource


> Uche:
>
>> In my personal opinion it's the likes of free verse and concrete poetry
>> that have helped drive away a lot of the public
>
> The Old Mole:
>
>> That's not necessarily a condemnation. Charlie Parker drove a lot of the
>> public away from jazz, but it would hard to argue that he was bad for 
>> jazz,
>! > American music, or American culture.
>
> I think there's a huge difference in scale. The drop in audience from
> the big band era to the bebop era is a lot less drastic than the drop in
> the audience of poetry in the 60s, as I reckon.
>
> With the advent of fusion, Jazz secured a very strong, if overall
> minority audience, and a much greater proportion of Jazz musicians these
> days can make a good living from the art than of poets.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 


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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 19 14:40:19 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:40:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paris Review Editor Starts New Magazine
Message-ID: <197.3f326445.2fbe3793@aol.com>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/18/AR200505180122
9.html
 
Paris Review Editor Starts New Magazine
 
By HILLEL ITALIE
The Associated Press
Wednesday, May 18, 2005; 2:16 PM
 
NEW YORK -- At the end of the year, the changing field of literary magazines 
will likely be joined by a new name: A Public Space.
 
It is notable for at least two reasons: The editor is Brigid Hughes, George 
Plimpton's successor at The Paris Review, and the focus will be on two art 
forms no longer in fashion _ fiction and poetry.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 15:02:11 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:02:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (concrete/visual)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><044c01c55c59$4f1a5e20$44169c51@Robin><004301c55c5e$dd87e880$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<048201c55c63$f09b6280$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <007d01c55ca5$4394ed80$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> > people (was it?) referred to concrete poetry as visual poetry.  You 
>> > were
>
>> But I don't see that you've established it as not so, Robin.  I'm saying
>> that the terms are interchangeable--I'd say, for just about everybody.
>
> Well, let's take the 30,000 odd occasions where "concrete poetry" is
> referred to without reference to "visual poetry".  That can't commute
> forward as I think we'd both agree that visual poetry is later, so it has 
> to
> either refer to pre-visual poetry or current poetry playing by the 
> Brazilian
> Rules.

But it DOES commute forward.  I think.  People shown poems with strong 
visual aspects and told they're concrete poems permanently refer to poems 
with strong visual aspects as concrete poems, even when the poems are what 
more up-to-date people would call visual poems.  I (sometimes) call modern 
refrigerators ice boxes.  They aren't.


> OK, the opposite argument doesn't apply -- I'd agree that some (many) 
> people
> now use "visual poetry to include concrete poetry.  (Or rather, I'll take
> your word for it -- you know more than me in this area, pretty obviously.)
>
> And I'm simply running the raw google figures -- I haven't gone behind any
> of the numbers to see what's actually said, let alone the 100,000 total
> hits.  How long would that take?  (Well, I suppose I should at least have
> sampled a few.)
>
> Um, I think I've just dug myself into a corner here, so I'll drop this.
>
>> Naturally, if someone wants to discuss some particular poem or poet, he's
>> much more likely to use one of the two terms, not both.
>
> But surely the very fact of having the two terms, and chosing one *rather*
> than the other to discuss a particular poet -- talking about X as a 
> concrete
> poet one minute and Y as a visual poet the next -- implies that there's 
> some
> difference between the two?

Yes.  But I thought we were speaking of instances in which that did not 
happen.  There's also the problem that a person can take concrete poetry to 
be a form of visual poetry and for that reas use the two terms together. 
Additionally, there's no term (gasp) for a visual poet who is not a concrete 
poet.  I mean, for those of us who consider concrete poets to be visual 
poets.

To be fair, here's a datum: Marvin and Ruth Sackner call their museum for 
the field a concrete AND visual poetry archive.  It is THE museum or 
whatever for the field in the US, and Marvin is a bona fide authority.  I 
think he would consider concrete poetry a form of visual poetry but can't 
say for sure.

>> The ones for whom the two terms are not interchangeable are poets doing
>> poems using graphics who for some reason dislike the concrete poets--for
>> political reasons, or because of their rules, or whatever--and icky-picky
>> analysts (like me) who were around at the time of the name-change, and
> have
>> studied concrete poetry enough to understand that it was mostly a subset
> of
>> mixed word and picture poems which excluded non-typographical graphics,
>> which visual poetry does not, among other small differences.
>
> I'm not sure I actually disagree with this, and I can't entirely see
> (seriously) where you're disgreeing with me.  Are we into hairsplitting?

I think we were from the start--in this phase.  But some hairs should be 
split.

> I'm happy to carry on the argument around the two terms in this area if 
> you
> want, but I think we'd better shift it backchannel in that case, since we
> seem to have reached the point where we're carrying out a private dialogue
> in public, and (probably) by this point if not before, straining the
> patience of the list?  Nah?

I don't care.  No one's complained.  I think it should be instructive to 
show how such a discussion can go, even with me in it.  I think things of 
interest about poetry have gotten into it, and we've batted ideas around 
rather than each other.

> Back to Sexton
>
>        The Stone Dormouse

Okay.

--Bob 




From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Thu May 19 15:54:07 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:54:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] concrete/visual
Message-ID: <200505191954.j4JJs79A013262@mail2.atl.registeredsite.com>

.

Dear Robin,  

I apologize for my rudeness.  I?ve been reading the list the last few days and 
enjoying your discussions so much that I already felt a part of the 
proceedings.  I was moved to actually join.  And then this morning in my 
coffee rush, with your voices swirling ?round in my head, I began my post 
and -- short of making any explicit gesture, well, actually I thought the 
subject line would do -- it was as though I were already involved.  You 
must forgive my breach of etiquette.  

Actually, I didn?t post the entire essay, only excerpts.  I feel a little 
uncomfortable just posting a url.  I feel it?s as though I?m giving the reader 
work to do, or, calling him away from the list, when, on the other hand, I 
feel here, I?m presenting it to you (albeit in excerpts), and you don?t have to 
leave or click away.  In the future I will only post the url, along with my 
invitation.  (I understand the considerations as to length.)  

I do hope you can make it back to my post.  The entire post was a gesture, 
not only to you, but to everybody following the thread.  I welcome 
everybody to read my post, and to read the essay in situ, no token gestures 
required.  I think, if you really are interested in this topic, then you may very 
well appreciate what I have to offer.    

As for concrete poetry, there certainly is a difference between concrete 
poetry and visual poetry.  And the terms ought not to be interchangeable.  
What is needed is a clear elucidation of just what visual poetry is, and most 
importantly of the sense in which it is poetry.  I believe that we will find that 
visual poetry is poetry only in an analogous sense (only in certain very 
restricted respects), and that once this is understood it will be seen that all 
pictorial art (even nonrepresentational art) can then be claimed to be a form 
of poetry (as it is already claimed to be a form of story-telling).  But when it 
comes to concrete poetry, concrete poetry remains a part of literature.  

I don't know if we're supposed to make personalized posts on this list, but 
since you addressed your post to me directly I have addressed this post to 
you directly, but really the thoughts are to share with everybody.      


Gregory



Dear Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino,

While it will be I'm sure quite fascinating to read your words on this
subject (though it might have been more considerate simply to post the URL
rather than including the entire text, and let those who wanted to go to the
site and chose for themselves whether or not to read your piece), it would
have been nice if you had made at least some small token gesture towards 
the
discussion that Bob Grumman and I have been conducting, since it bears on
several issues you deal with.

There is a difference between dialogue and pontificating.  I feel a  list is
more suited to the former rather the later.

I may be wrong, of course.

Robin Hamilton


.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 17:46:29 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:46:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
References: <BEB21BEE.122AA%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00ec01c55cbc$375ee4a0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

It's certainly not a myth that poetry's popularity has gone downhill between 
1900 and now, though it may be untrue.  Where, for instance, is our 
equivalent of John Ciardi's poetry column in The Saturday Review of 
Literature?  Where, in fact, is our equivalent of The Saturday Review of 
Literarature?

But there are two facotrs which might account for the belief in poetry's 
fade, if it's false: that those holding that belief are comparing an 
adulthood in which poetry hardly ever is discussed, nor books of poetry 
encountered, with their pre-adulthood (including college years) when it was 
important, and/or aware that the kind of poetry they happen to like is 
losing its appeal and taking their kind of poetry for poetry as a whole.

A third factor is that there are so many more people now, and so many more 
poets, and varieties of poets--and no easy figure in poetry to focus on, 
except, I guess, Rita Dove or Maya Angelou.  It seems to me there was a time 
when every educated knew of Eliot and most educated people seemed to 
treasure Frost.  Maybe (though I doubt it) Ashbery is today's equivalent of 
Eliot, but who would be today's equivalent of Frost?  Not Wilbur.

I tend to think poetry has never been very popular, but that it is slightly 
less popular now than it has been in the past.

--Bob G.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:33 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument


>A few thoughts for context, then I've had enough for this trip around the
> old carousel.
>
> As Donald Hall points out at entertaining length in the essay I cited,
> there's a rather venerable tradition now of essays lamenting the sad state
> of contemporary poetry.
>
> Such essays often assume that poetry has "lost its audience," and then
> typically provide eulogies or remedies.  Dana Gioia's famous "Can Poetry
> Matter," unwritten at the time of Hall's essay, provides one of the most
> entertaining and substantial entries in the tradition, but does manage to
> confirm many of Hall's points.  (Gioia later modified his position some,
> faced with facts that tended to undercut his argument--such as the
> proliferation of online poetry, the renaissance of performance poetry,
> etc.--but to my knowledge he never retracted his shaky key point.)
>
> I think Gioia's most clever maneuver is the claim that poetry has 
> retreated
> into the academy, and thus, despite the swelling numbers of readers, has
> remained a "coterie" taste.  This is a rhetorical flourish, but fails to
> account for the degree to which the academy, since WWII, has tended to 
> merge
> with the category of "educated audience."  But even Gioia has had to 
> account
> for the proliferation of poetry in non-academic settings, such as cowboy
> poetry readings and the multiplicity of online venues.
>
> In any case, one frequent assumption in such arguments is that there was a
> time, a golden age, when It Was Not So.  Longfellow and Tennyson are 
> always
> mentioned.  So any time I hear about poetry losing its audience or driving
> readers away, I think of Hall's essay.
>
> Hall points out, via a few tidbits of sales figures, that more poetry is
> being sold today, by any yardstick, than at most times in the past.  I'll
> stipulate that his is an anecdotal and very partial survey, but his 
> numbers
> are sufficient to disprove the very frequent complaint about poetry 
> driving
> its readers away after the modernist revolution.
>
> In contrast, poetry is more popular than ever before, he asserts (this was
> in 1982, btw--and I don't believe sales have declined since then).  (Also
> btw, Hall is well aware that sales figures do not equate with quality--you
> can't attack his argument on those grounds.)
>
> In any case, what seems most interesting to me is the persistence of the
> myth--why, despite all sorts of obvious evidence, many people seem to 
> *need*
> to believe in a decline of poetry's audience.
>
> Sometimes the alleged culprit is free verse, sometimes it's academic
> elitism, sometimes it's postmodernism, sometimes it's lack of narrative,
> sometimes it's navel-gazing confessionalism, sometimes it's vaporous
> multicultural identity politics, etc.  But whatever the specific 
> diagnosis,
> the notion that poetry has declined in popularity in the past century is a
> very persistent belief.
>
> A hard belief to reconcile, I think, with the burgeoning numbers of books
> being sold in the past half century, the mushrooming of writers' programs,
> the omnipresence of poetry online, the renaissance of public poetry
> readings, and all sorts of public visibility and attention, from National
> Poetry month through the Bill Moyers phenomenon and your local slams.
>
> Anyway, I take it that the argument is unkillable precisely because facts
> and figures are not at issue, really, but beliefs.
>
>
> on 5/19/05 6:45 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 14:26 -0500, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not aware of any such studies, which was part of my point: 
>>> confident
>>> assertions that poetry "drove readers away" or "lost its audience" are 
>>> not
>>> made more believable by being re-asserted down the decades without
>>> substantive supporting evidence.  Not to mention flying in the face of
>>> considerable counter-evidence.
>>
>> If there is considerable counter-evidence, you didn't provide it.  I
>> hasten to admit that I didn't provide any evidence for my part.  The
>> lack of such useful fodder on either side is my main reason for being
>> noncommittal about the argument.  Regardless of my personal beliefs, I'm
>> not interested in an abstract argument of well tried anecdotes and dicta
>> (at least not right now: usually I revel in such things, but time is
>> very scarce lately).
>>
>>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 17:52:58 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:52:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market
References: <009801c55c6b$340bc5d0$76ab3452@ANNY><003401c55c77$b7015a70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><007601c55c95$2722c600$bf2bb750@ANNY>
	<20050519121555.Q26392@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <010001c55cbd$1f87e060$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Thanks for the explanation, kpaul not Karl.

How does one get one's blog listed, do you know?  I didn't see anything to 
click to do that.  I, needless to say, am going for the top position--i.e., 
a value of zero- unless negative values are allowed (I give you 270.83 to 
take a share of my blog).

--Bob G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "kpaul mallasch" <kpaul at mallasch.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market


> it's a very addicting stock market simulator. instead of companies, 
> though, people buy and sell shares in 'blogs' the value of the blog is 
> calculated by how many people link to the blog in question. if anyone 
> signs up, let me know as i've built up several billion dollars in game 
> money over the years. you start with $500 ;)
>
> it's also a pretty decent blog directory if you're not interested in the 
> game.
>
> so, below, it would mean Gould has more links pointing to his site and is 
> 'worth more' in the game.
>
> -kpaul
> http://www.mallasch.com
>
>
> On Thu, 19 May 2005, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>> It was a surprise. It means that people (I notice that I was _bought_) 
>> speculate on blogs. Maybe someone can explain better.
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: The Old Mole
>>  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>>  Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 3:36 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market
>>
>>
>>  Anny...can you explain this at all???????
>>
>>
>>  Tad Richards
>>  www.opus40.org
>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>    From: Anny Ballardini
>>    To: New Poetry
>>    Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 8:06 AM
>>    Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs on the Market
>>
>>
>>    It might be interesting to notice that also Blogs are on the Market 
>> with shares and so on. Here is a link to the valuation of my _mostly 
>> night_ speculations:
>>
>> 
>> http://blogshares.com/blogs.php?blog=http://annyballardini.blogspot.com%2F
>>
>>    if you scroll down you will notice that Henry Gould is more valued 
>> than Ron Silliman, and other surprises. Like the title of my blog: 
>> Narcissus' End instead of Narcissul' Works.
>>
>>    Take care,
>>
>>    Anny Ballardini
>>    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a 
>> dancing star!
>>    Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    New-Poetry mailing list
>>    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 18:16:48 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:16:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Hour's Amazon Sales
References: <11757553.1116444131703.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><1116503297.1829.268.camel@malatesta>
	<11520440.1116505366940.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <013201c55cc0$737a0560$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Ted Kooser's Delights and Shadow, btw, is #1 in Poetry last hour, with a 
> book rank of 758. Woohoo!

An interesting research project would be to compare rankings of poet 
laureates immediately before, then six months after they become 
super-certified.  It would tend to support my contention that many people 
buy certification, not accomplishment.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 18:21:34 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:21:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB0DBD4.12200%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <013701c55cc1$1e1d08f0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>there was no better poet to come out of
> the 20th century.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham


I'll admit that I misread this until just now as Frost was the best poet of 
the 20th-Century.  I wasn't going to reply because I have nothing new to 
say, but two questions did occur to me.  David, would you also say that 
there was no better 20th-Century painter than Andrew Wyeth?  If not, why 
not?

(Actually, I'm close to agreement with David--with the proviso that I 
distinguish importance from effectiveness: Frost was as effective a poet as 
just about anyone, but not important.  I will not re-explain this 
distinction.)

--Bob G. 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu May 19 18:42:48 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:42:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] concrete/visual
References: <200505191954.j4JJs79A013262@mail2.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <002901c55cc4$161e7f50$cc8f9a51@Robin>

Gregory:

Sorry I was so snappy in my earlier post -- I suppose I was a bit worried
because Bob and I seemed to be talking to ourselves and I'd no way of
knowing whether we were fascinating everyone or boring them rigid.  And
there I go and bite the head off the only person I now know *was* listening
to us!

Anyway, I'll go back to your earlier post, and come back to this one.  I'm
about falling asleep at the moment, but I thought I ought to get this off
straight away and clear things up.

Anyway, let's put this behind us.  I'm certainly the more guilty of the two,
and it was no way to welcome you to the list (which I do now).

Robin

> Dear Robin,
>
> I apologize for my rudeness.  I've been reading the list the last few days
and
> enjoying your discussions so much that I already felt a part of the
> proceedings.  I was moved to actually join.  And then this morning in my
> coffee rush, with your voices swirling 'round in my head, I began my post
> and -- short of making any explicit gesture, well, actually I thought the
> subject line would do -- it was as though I were already involved.  You
> must forgive my breach of etiquette.
>
> Actually, I didn't post the entire essay, only excerpts.  I feel a little
> uncomfortable just posting a url.  I feel it's as though I'm giving the
reader
> work to do, or, calling him away from the list, when, on the other hand, I
> feel here, I'm presenting it to you (albeit in excerpts), and you don't
have to
> leave or click away.  In the future I will only post the url, along with
my
> invitation.  (I understand the considerations as to length.)
>
> I do hope you can make it back to my post.  The entire post was a gesture,
> not only to you, but to everybody following the thread.  I welcome
> everybody to read my post, and to read the essay in situ, no token
gestures
> required.  I think, if you really are interested in this topic, then you
may very
> well appreciate what I have to offer.
>
> As for concrete poetry, there certainly is a difference between concrete
> poetry and visual poetry.  And the terms ought not to be interchangeable.
> What is needed is a clear elucidation of just what visual poetry is, and
most
> importantly of the sense in which it is poetry.  I believe that we will
find that
> visual poetry is poetry only in an analogous sense (only in certain very
> restricted respects), and that once this is understood it will be seen
that all
> pictorial art (even nonrepresentational art) can then be claimed to be a
form
> of poetry (as it is already claimed to be a form of story-telling).  But
when it
> comes to concrete poetry, concrete poetry remains a part of literature.
>
> I don't know if we're supposed to make personalized posts on this list,
but
> since you addressed your post to me directly I have addressed this post to
> you directly, but really the thoughts are to share with everybody.
>
>
> Gregory
>
>
>
> Dear Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino,
>
> While it will be I'm sure quite fascinating to read your words on this
> subject (though it might have been more considerate simply to post the URL
> rather than including the entire text, and let those who wanted to go to
the
> site and chose for themselves whether or not to read your piece), it would
> have been nice if you had made at least some small token gesture towards
> the
> discussion that Bob Grumman and I have been conducting, since it bears on
> several issues you deal with.
>
> There is a difference between dialogue and pontificating.  I feel a  list
is
> more suited to the former rather the later.
>
> I may be wrong, of course.
>
> Robin Hamilton
>
>
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May 19 20:26:55 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:26:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <013701c55cc1$1e1d08f0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BEB298FF.122FA%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/19/05 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

> I'll admit that I misread this until just now as Frost was the best poet of
> the 20th-Century.  I wasn't going to reply because I have nothing new to
> say, but two questions did occur to me.  David, would you also say that
> there was no better 20th-Century painter than Andrew Wyeth?  If not, why
> not?

I see your point, but reject the analogy.  I assume you mean that Wyeth was
a mere traditional technician with nothing worthwhile to say, or else simply
a sentimentalist.  But that's a better description of Norman Rockwell.
Wyeth at his best is pretty damn good, and his technical skill is nothing to
sneeze at.  He does have a broad sentimental streak, though, and even at his
best a certain sterility and intellectual simplicity that's utterly unlike
Frost.  It takes more than technical skill to be a great artist.

Frost had as much technical skill as any poet of the 20th century, it should
go without saying.  But that's just one aspect of his greatness.  See, for
example, "Home Burial," and tell me how it resembles Wyeth.


> 
> (Actually, I'm close to agreement with David--with the proviso that I
> distinguish importance from effectiveness: Frost was as effective a poet as
> just about anyone, but not important.  I will not re-explain this
> distinction.)
> 
> --Bob G. 


I can only stand in awe of the opinion that Frost is an unimportant poet.
Truly stunning.  


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 19 20:27:27 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:27:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Passing on this quote/recipe...
Message-ID: <fd.1406757e.2fbe88ef@aol.com>

Everything I do, I do on the principle of Russian borscht. 
You can throw everything into it beets, carrots, cabbage, 
onions, everything you want. What's important is the 
result, the taste of the borscht. 
? ?? --Yevgeny Yevtushenko. 1986. NY Times. 2 Feb.

(recipe for a New York School poem?)
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 19 20:40:35 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:40:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
References: <BEB21BEE.122AA%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00ec01c55cbc$375ee4a0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <007e01c55cd4$8e87e520$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

<<Where, for instance, is our
equivalent of John Ciardi's poetry column in The Saturday Review of
Literature?  >>

What about Garrison Keillor's poem of the day on "Writer's Almanac"?

Has anyone looked into whether there's a modest spike in sales for poets 
featured by Keillor?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument


> It's certainly not a myth that poetry's popularity has gone downhill 
> between 1900 and now, though it may be untrue.  Where, for instance, is 
> our equivalent of John Ciardi's poetry column in The Saturday Review of 
> Literature?  Where, in fact, is our equivalent of The Saturday Review of 
> Literarature?
>
> But there are two facotrs which might account for the belief in poetry's 
> fade, if it's false: that those holding that belief are comparing an 
> adulthood in which poetry hardly ever is discussed, nor books of poetry 
> encountered, with their pre-adulthood (including college years) when it 
> was important, and/or aware that the kind of poetry they happen to like is 
> losing its appeal and taking their kind of poetry for poetry as a whole.
>
> A third factor is that there are so many more people now, and so many more 
> poets, and varieties of poets--and no easy figure in poetry to focus on, 
> except, I guess, Rita Dove or Maya Angelou.  It seems to me there was a 
> time when every educated knew of Eliot and most educated people seemed to 
> treasure Frost.  Maybe (though I doubt it) Ashbery is today's equivalent 
> of Eliot, but who would be today's equivalent of Frost?  Not Wilbur.
>
> I tend to think poetry has never been very popular, but that it is 
> slightly less popular now than it has been in the past.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:33 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
>
>
>>A few thoughts for context, then I've had enough for this trip around the
>> old carousel.
>>
>> As Donald Hall points out at entertaining length in the essay I cited,
>> there's a rather venerable tradition now of essays lamenting the sad 
>> state
>> of contemporary poetry.
>>
>> Such essays often assume that poetry has "lost its audience," and then
>> typically provide eulogies or remedies.  Dana Gioia's famous "Can Poetry
>> Matter," unwritten at the time of Hall's essay, provides one of the most
>> entertaining and substantial entries in the tradition, but does manage to
>> confirm many of Hall's points.  (Gioia later modified his position some,
>> faced with facts that tended to undercut his argument--such as the
>> proliferation of online poetry, the renaissance of performance poetry,
>> etc.--but to my knowledge he never retracted his shaky key point.)
>>
>> I think Gioia's most clever maneuver is the claim that poetry has 
>> retreated
>> into the academy, and thus, despite the swelling numbers of readers, has
>> remained a "coterie" taste.  This is a rhetorical flourish, but fails to
>> account for the degree to which the academy, since WWII, has tended to 
>> merge
>> with the category of "educated audience."  But even Gioia has had to 
>> account
>> for the proliferation of poetry in non-academic settings, such as cowboy
>> poetry readings and the multiplicity of online venues.
>>
>> In any case, one frequent assumption in such arguments is that there was 
>> a
>> time, a golden age, when It Was Not So.  Longfellow and Tennyson are 
>> always
>> mentioned.  So any time I hear about poetry losing its audience or 
>> driving
>> readers away, I think of Hall's essay.
>>
>> Hall points out, via a few tidbits of sales figures, that more poetry is
>> being sold today, by any yardstick, than at most times in the past.  I'll
>> stipulate that his is an anecdotal and very partial survey, but his 
>> numbers
>> are sufficient to disprove the very frequent complaint about poetry 
>> driving
>> its readers away after the modernist revolution.
>>
>> In contrast, poetry is more popular than ever before, he asserts (this 
>> was
>> in 1982, btw--and I don't believe sales have declined since then).  (Also
>> btw, Hall is well aware that sales figures do not equate with 
>> quality--you
>> can't attack his argument on those grounds.)
>>
>> In any case, what seems most interesting to me is the persistence of the
>> myth--why, despite all sorts of obvious evidence, many people seem to 
>> *need*
>> to believe in a decline of poetry's audience.
>>
>> Sometimes the alleged culprit is free verse, sometimes it's academic
>> elitism, sometimes it's postmodernism, sometimes it's lack of narrative,
>> sometimes it's navel-gazing confessionalism, sometimes it's vaporous
>> multicultural identity politics, etc.  But whatever the specific 
>> diagnosis,
>> the notion that poetry has declined in popularity in the past century is 
>> a
>> very persistent belief.
>>
>> A hard belief to reconcile, I think, with the burgeoning numbers of books
>> being sold in the past half century, the mushrooming of writers' 
>> programs,
>> the omnipresence of poetry online, the renaissance of public poetry
>> readings, and all sorts of public visibility and attention, from National
>> Poetry month through the Bill Moyers phenomenon and your local slams.
>>
>> Anyway, I take it that the argument is unkillable precisely because facts
>> and figures are not at issue, really, but beliefs.
>>
>>
>> on 5/19/05 6:45 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 14:26 -0500, David Graham wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not aware of any such studies, which was part of my point: 
>>>> confident
>>>> assertions that poetry "drove readers away" or "lost its audience" are 
>>>> not
>>>> made more believable by being re-asserted down the decades without
>>>> substantive supporting evidence.  Not to mention flying in the face of
>>>> considerable counter-evidence.
>>>
>>> If there is considerable counter-evidence, you didn't provide it.  I
>>> hasten to admit that I didn't provide any evidence for my part.  The
>>> lack of such useful fodder on either side is my main reason for being
>>> noncommittal about the argument.  Regardless of my personal beliefs, I'm
>>> not interested in an abstract argument of well tried anecdotes and dicta
>>> (at least not right now: usually I revel in such things, but time is
>>> very scarce lately).
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ====================================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> Home Page:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> ====================================================
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May 19 20:50:30 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:50:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's popularity, Episode #3765
In-Reply-To: <007e01c55cd4$8e87e520$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BEB29E86.12302%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/19/05 7:40 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

> <<Where, for instance, is our
> equivalent of John Ciardi's poetry column in The Saturday Review of
> Literature?  >>
> 
> What about Garrison Keillor's poem of the day on "Writer's Almanac"?
> 
> Has anyone looked into whether there's a modest spike in sales for poets
> featured by Keillor?
> 
> 
> Tad Richards


Probably the closest equivalent to Ciardi's old column would be the regular
poetry features in *The Christian Science Monitor*--middlebrow appreciations
in a high-circulation venue.

Also:  the Poet's Choice column in the Washington Post, handed off from Hass
to Dove to Hirsch and now Pinsky.  Plus Billy Collins's *Poetry 180* web
site and associated anthologies, and now Ted Kooser's *American Life in
Poetry* column.  

And Poetry Daily itself, for heaven's sake, from which one can access all
the above.  

I've heard from several poets featured on Keillor's radio spot and at least
one poetry editor that, yes, it is a definite if modest aid to sales.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From grahamd at vbe.com  Thu May 19 21:08:16 2005
From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:08:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Linebreaks
In-Reply-To: <056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <BEB2A2B0.4B53%grahamd@vbe.com>

on 5/19/05 12:46 PM, Robin Hamilton at robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com wrote:

> Incidentally, <terminal line-breaks in the "wrong place,">.  I don't know
> who first did this, but it was a standard part of the way D.M.Black was
> writing in the seventies.

Certainly W. C. Williams was doing it by at least 1923 or so--and even more
aggressively in his later work.  Poets like Creeley definitely took it and
ran with it.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at vbe.com
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 19 21:19:12 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:19:12 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] new issue of _moria_ and a cfp 
Message-ID: <a9.73d6e938.2fbe9510@aol.com>

From:    Catherine Daly <cadaly at PACBELL.NET>
Subject: FW: new issue of _moria_ and a cfp

check out the new issue of  <http://www.moriapoetry.com> moria
(www.moriapoetry.com). it includes poetry by kari edwards, chuck
stebelton,
mIEKAL aND, vincent blafard, mark kanak, jennifer firestone, john dooly,
andrew cliburn, dennis formento, christopher eaton; a collaborative
piece by
steve dalachinsky and jukka-pekka <http://nonlinearpoetry.blogspot.com>
kervinen; a theoretical piece by eileen tabios
<http://chatelaine-poet.blogspot.com> ; and reviews on derek white and
wendy
sorin, donna kuhn, catherine daly, raymond bianchi, thomas fink, and
the
book pinoy poetics.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 21:33:52 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:33:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB298FF.122FA%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <015001c55cdb$fb107480$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> I'll admit that I misread this until just now as Frost was the best poet 
>> of
>> the 20th-Century.  I wasn't going to reply because I have nothing new to
>> say, but two questions did occur to me.  David, would you also say that
>> there was no better 20th-Century painter than Andrew Wyeth?  If not, why
>> not?
>
> I see your point, but reject the analogy.  I assume you mean that Wyeth 
> was
> a mere traditional technician with nothing worthwhile to say, or else 
> simply
> a sentimentalist.  But that's a better description of Norman Rockwell.
> Wyeth at his best is pretty damn good, and his technical skill is nothing 
> to
> sneeze at.  He does have a broad sentimental streak, though, and even at 
> his
> best a certain sterility and intellectual simplicity that's utterly unlike
> Frost.  It takes more than technical skill to be a great artist.

Actually, I greatly admire the work of Wyeth.  I think he's as good a 
painter as Frost was a poet.  I don't find any sentimentality in his work.

> Frost had as much technical skill as any poet of the 20th century, it 
> should
> go without saying.

That would depend.  He was as good with conventional techniques as any poet 
then, I suppose.  Pound and Cummings had far more technical skill, because 
able to use the tools of Frost almost as well as he, but use many other 
tools he did not use as well as he used his.

> But that's just one aspect of his greatness.  See, for
> example, "Home Burial," and tell me how it resembles Wyeth.

Frost did certain things well, Wyeth others.  All I can go by (without a 
detailed analysis of the two I certainly have no time for) is how each 
affects me: "Home Burial" doesn't at all, but many of Frost's lyrical poems 
give, or gave, me a buzz; ditto many of Wyeth's paintings.

I guess I do have a problem with the idea of a poet like Frost's being 
considered as good as any poet in the 20th century.  It is that I think the 
best poets should be effective and important, and can't see how a poet, 
however effective at making standard poems, can be consider superior to 
other effective poets who, well, founds or contributes toward the founding, 
of a school.  To get back to New-Poetry's recent thread on influence that, 
as usual, went nowhere, what poets did Frost influence?  What poets would 
not have composed the poems they did had it not been for his example?

--Bob G.
>
>>
>> (Actually, I'm close to agreement with David--with the proviso that I
>> distinguish importance from effectiveness: Frost was as effective a poet 
>> as
>> just about anyone, but not important.  I will not re-explain this
>> distinction.)
>>
>> --Bob G.
>
>
> I can only stand in awe of the opinion that Frost is an unimportant poet.
> Truly stunning.
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 21:37:31 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:37:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The unkillable argument
References: <BEB21BEE.122AA%grahamd@ripon.edu><00ec01c55cbc$375ee4a0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<007e01c55cd4$8e87e520$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <015a01c55cdc$7dd4dd70$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> <<Where, for instance, is our
> equivalent of John Ciardi's poetry column in The Saturday Review of
> Literature?  >>
>
> What about Garrison Keillor's poem of the day on "Writer's Almanac"?

Tough to say.  Ciardi discussed poems, and poetry.  Keillor just reads 
poems.  I wonder: did any radio station back in Ciardi's time broadcast 
poetry?

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 21:46:23 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:46:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's popularity, Episode #3765
References: <BEB29E86.12302%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <015f01c55cdd$ba9c9940$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Probably the closest equivalent to Ciardi's old column would be the 
> regular
> poetry features in *The Christian Science Monitor*--middlebrow 
> appreciations
> in a high-circulation venue.

Okay.  How long has it been going?  I don't remember it the few times I 
accepted free trial issues from the Monitor.


> Also:  the Poet's Choice column in the Washington Post, handed off from 
> Hass
> to Dove to Hirsch and now Pinsky.

I thought of those.  I would admit they indicate poetry may right now be as 
popular as fifty years ago, but I was comparing (yes, unstatedly) the 
popularity of poetry over the passed several decades to its popularity for 
many decades early in the past century.


 Plus Billy Collins's *Poetry 180* web
> site and associated anthologies, and now Ted Kooser's *American Life in
> Poetry* column.

I wouldn't count web sites yet.  I don't think they mean much.  It's certain 
that, due to the web, vastly more poets and discussions are being published 
than ever before.

> And Poetry Daily itself, for heaven's sake, from which one can access all
> the above.

Same problems.  Are shoelaces more popular than ever before because, no 
doubt, the websites now devoted to them outnumber the publications covering 
them fifty years ago?

I AM optimistic about the Internet, though, and do think it's helping 
poetry.

--Bob G.

> I've heard from several poets featured on Keillor's radio spot and at 
> least
> one poetry editor that, yes, it is a definite if modest aid to sales.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 21:57:57 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:57:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Linebreaks
References: <BEB2A2B0.4B53%grahamd@vbe.com>
Message-ID: <016401c55cdf$5889b790$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> on 5/19/05 12:46 PM, Robin Hamilton at robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, <terminal line-breaks in the "wrong place,">.  I don't know
>> who first did this, but it was a standard part of the way D.M.Black was
>> writing in the seventies.
>
> Certainly W. C. Williams was doing it by at least 1923 or so--and even 
> more
> aggressively in his later work.  Poets like Creeley definitely took it and
> ran with it.
>
How about line-breaks in the "wrong" places at the end of otherwise 
conventional lines?  Seems to me Williams and Creeley were more involved in 
making poems of short lines than in breaking conventional lines off at the 
"wrong" place (though they were also intentionally doing that).  To really 
split hairs.  I'm not arguing, I'm curious.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu May 19 22:00:52 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:00:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <016b01c55cdf$c0dfc500$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Thanks for the detailed interesting response, Robin.  But I want more--like 
examples.  Can't really say much without them, except that I don't yet see 
from what you say that Sexton was doing anything significally different.

--Bob

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Cc: "Joanna Boulter" <joanna.boulter at ntlworld.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)


> Ann Sexton's +The Awful Rowing Towards God+
>
> "formal possibilities there that haven't been remotely explored."
>
>> >> Name one, please.
>
> Having finished rereading, part-way through with your question in mind, 
> Bob,
> I think I have the start of an answer.  What I'll say is what seems to me
> unique to Awful Rowing, but implicit is that there are further 
> possibilities
> to be extended from what Sexton does there.
>
> The central element seems to be that there are no (or very rarely) 
> internal
> pauses within her lines.  The lines are defined not by rhythm (though 
> there
> is an overall rhythm) but by syntactic unit or phrase, often linked to a
> central image in the line.
>
> (I think, though this isn't a formal point, that it ties into the way in
> which the speaker isn't externally defined -- we know, in one sense, much
> less of "Sexton" than we do, say, of "Lowell" in +Life Studies+.  The
> speaker is created almost entirely through the images she uses, her
> language, tone, etc., and I think this ties in with the way that the
> controlling formal element is syntactic.)
>
> The syntactic structuring (simply to create a catch-all term for what I'm
> trying to describe) links into the way in which line lengths vary more 
> than
> the norm, but at the same time, the variation isn't arbitrary.
>
> That for starters.  I can't think of anyone else who does quite this, but
> there may be ... Suggestions?
>
>> > I don't think (I hope) what resulted was imitation Ann Sexton, but she
>> > sure
>> > as hell gave me the key that unlocked a very specific form/content
> problem
>> > I
>> > had -- no way could I write about what I wanted with the techniques I'd
> up
>> > to then accumulated.
>>
>> I would say that every free verse poet has a finally unique way of
>> structuring a poem but that variable lineation is the non-unique 
>> technique
>> used.
>
> Yes, but it's the particular *way* that Sexton varies line length, as I 
> said
> above, that seems to me at the least ... unusual.
>
>> You may simply not have found a structure for your poems you were
>> satisfied until you saw hers.
>
> Sure, but as I said to you earlier backchannel, I'd been deep in Plath for
> years, so whatever it was I found in Sexton that "solved" my problem, it 
> had
> to be something that *wasn't* in Plath.  Bit anecdotal that, but that's 
> the
> best I can put it.
>
>> My sorta like experience was in finally
>> realizing the value of terminal line-breaks in the "wrong place," like
>> between "the" and "pond," say.  This I would consider to have been a new
>> technique when first done, not long ago (to any serious extent).
>
> Oh, exactly, I can appreciate that, and I'd done it myself.  What Sexton 
> is
> doing, whatever it is, is almost heading in the *opposite* direction --  
> each
> line a distinct phrasal unit, and *never* breaking across the phrase.
>
> Incidentally, <terminal line-breaks in the "wrong place,">.  I don't know
> who first did this, but it was a standard part of the way D.M.Black was
> writing in the seventies.  I picked it up from David (though I tend not to
> use it that often, for reasons I won't bore everyone with) but David used 
> it
> more and carried it further than most, even breaking across a word -- "...
> any / -thing ...", stuff like that.  I'll see if I can find a concise
> example in David's work at some point, and put my money where my mouth is.
> (Remind me if I forget, Bob -- I'm sure you would anyway <g>.)
>
>> Anyway, I'm saying you didn't pick up a new technique from Sexton, just a
>> kind of rhythm that worked for you.
>
> Rhythm was part of it, certainly, but it went beyond rhythm.  I'm not sure 
> I
> can defend this, but it does seem to me to link in with *what's* being 
> said.
> Almost, it controls the way the speaker presents themselves, and it only
> works effectively with, I think, strong imagery.  Otherwise you've simply
> got chopped-up prose.
>
>> > It was something to do with using lines with no apparent length order
> but
>> > an
>> > underlying coherence.  Vague I know, but the best I can manage at the
>> > moment.  A more coherent answer if&when.
>
> What I've written above is my revision of that initial vague observation.
>
>> > That's, I think, part of what I'm seeing in Sexton -- a more extreme 
>> > use
>> > of
>> > line break than in most free verse.
>
> Actually (as will be apparent from what I said above) I no longer agree 
> what
> my earlier self said there.
>
>> I don't know Sexton well, and don't like what I know of her stuff at all,
> so
>> can't say.  I would have trouble believing her lineation more liberated
> than
>> Cummings's, though, or anything by the concrete/visual poets.
>
> Well, I'm talking specifically about +Awful Rowing Towards God+.  I first
> came on her in Al Alvarez +The New Poetry+ anthology (does this run in the
> States?) and until I came on ARTG, never really got that excited by her.
> Now, I want to explore the earlier work.  Start from the beginning rather
> than the end, I suppose.
>
>> Think of how subject matter can be changed.  I would ask for a similarly
>> recognizable change of technique before I could accept that any recent
> poet
>> has done anything technically new in conventional free verse.
>
> I'm not sure this is a fair analogy, but damn me if I can think of how to
> counter it, or even encounter it, at the moment.  I think it turns on how
> significant the change is, and how far it has to go to be significant. 
> It's
> a bit of stretch, but I'd see the shift in the iambic pentameter couplet
> across, say, Jonson, Dryden, Pope, Johnson and Crabbe, to go no further as
> at each point showing a "recognizable change of technique", all the time
> nevertheless within the bounds of the rhymed iambic pentameter couplet. 
> But
> I suspect you might not agree with this, Bob.
>
>> > visual poetry and mathemateku
>>
>> It's "mathemaku," as I previously have politely refrained from telling
> you.
>
> Given that on a bad hair day, I can manage to mis-spell my own name, you
> should be grateful that I got as close as I did.
>
>> My apologies for short-changing you.
>
> And my apologies for long-changing everyone else by the extent of this 
> post.
>
>        The Stone Dormouse
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu May 19 23:30:27 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:30:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor reading with Kenneth Bernard and Halvard
	Johnson: May 23 & May 24 NYC 
Message-ID: <d04e600c8ec196839cd84b9fcb5021d6@earthlink.net>

Readings: One Gal and Two Guys

Mon., May 23 -- 6:00 pm
Lynda Schor and Kenneth Bernard (both reading fiction)
Cornelia Street Cafe (on Cornelia St. betw. Bleecker St. and W. 4th St.)
NYC

Tues., May 24 -- 7:30 pm
Lynda Schor (fiction) and Halvard Johnson (poetry)
Westbeth Community Room
155 Bank St. in the West Village
NYC



Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From aburke at iinet.net.au  Fri May 20 00:47:51 2005
From: aburke at iinet.net.au (Andrew Burke)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:47:51 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor reading with Kenneth Bernard and
	HalvardJohnson: May 23 & May 24 NYC 
References: <d04e600c8ec196839cd84b9fcb5021d6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001d01c55cf7$14fc8c60$adf23bcb@andrewbu>

Break a tongue, Hal.

Andrew

----- Original Message -----
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "UB Poetics discussion group" <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
Cc: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 11:30 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor reading with Kenneth Bernard and
HalvardJohnson: May 23 & May 24 NYC


> Readings: One Gal and Two Guys
>
> Mon., May 23 -- 6:00 pm
> Lynda Schor and Kenneth Bernard (both reading fiction)
> Cornelia Street Cafe (on Cornelia St. betw. Bleecker St. and W. 4th St.)
> NYC
>
> Tues., May 24 -- 7:30 pm
> Lynda Schor (fiction) and Halvard Johnson (poetry)
> Westbeth Community Room
> 155 Bank St. in the West Village
> NYC
>
>
>
> Hal   Serving the tristate area.
>
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri May 20 00:10:08 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:10:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor reading with Kenneth Bernard and
	HalvardJohnson: May 23 & May 24 NYC 
In-Reply-To: <001d01c55cf7$14fc8c60$adf23bcb@andrewbu>
References: <d04e600c8ec196839cd84b9fcb5021d6@earthlink.net>
	<001d01c55cf7$14fc8c60$adf23bcb@andrewbu>
Message-ID: <54131604a99f6a37981ad8ef7ad25ae1@earthlink.net>

Why thankee kindly, Andrew.

Hal

On May 20, 2005, at 12:47 AM, Andrew Burke wrote:

> Break a tongue, Hal.
>
> Andrew
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> To: "UB Poetics discussion group" <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Cc: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 11:30 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor reading with Kenneth Bernard and
> HalvardJohnson: May 23 & May 24 NYC
>
>
>> Readings: One Gal and Two Guys
>>
>> Mon., May 23 -- 6:00 pm
>> Lynda Schor and Kenneth Bernard (both reading fiction)
>> Cornelia Street Cafe (on Cornelia St. betw. Bleecker St. and W. 4th 
>> St.)
>> NYC
>>
>> Tues., May 24 -- 7:30 pm
>> Lynda Schor (fiction) and Halvard Johnson (poetry)
>> Westbeth Community Room
>> 155 Bank St. in the West Village
>> NYC
>>
>>
>>
>> Hal   Serving the tristate area.
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> halvard at earthlink.net
>> halvard at gmail.com
>> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From uche at ogbuji.net  Fri May 20 07:48:41 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 05:48:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove, Angelou
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c55cbc$375ee4a0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BEB21BEE.122AA%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00ec01c55cbc$375ee4a0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1116589721.1829.294.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 17:46 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote:

> A third factor is that there are so many more people now, and so many more 
> poets, and varieties of poets--and no easy figure in poetry to focus on, 
> except, I guess, Rita Dove or Maya Angelou.

Rita Dove?  I wish.  Seems to me Angelou dominates the scene.  And this
is a pity.  Dove is a good poet, methinks, whereas Angelou should be
forcibly drafted to Saturday Night Live to write the "Deep Thoughts"
skit.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From tad at opus40.org  Fri May 20 07:51:05 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:51:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's popularity, Episode #3765
References: <BEB29E86.12302%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <001101c55d32$3793aca0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

And now Gregory Orr's promised irregular feature in the NY Times Book 
Review.

I'd say that internet publications have led to a spike in poetry readership. 
Certainly Poetry Daily has. Here's another way. If I have a poem in an 
online publication, I'll send out a distrib email to everyone on my mailing 
list, which is a substantial number, and most of them are not regular 
readers of poetry journals. I assume other poets do too -- I got the idea 
from Ken Rosen. I don't send out a link to the page I'm on, I send it to the 
homepage of the journal. So at least some of my correspondents are going to 
look at some of the other poems in the same journal.
Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 8:50 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's popularity, Episode #3765


> on 5/19/05 7:40 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:
>
>> <<Where, for instance, is our
>> equivalent of John Ciardi's poetry column in The Saturday Review of
>> Literature?  >>
>>
>> What about Garrison Keillor's poem of the day on "Writer's Almanac"?
>>
>> Has anyone looked into whether there's a modest spike in sales for poets
>> featured by Keillor?
>>
>>
>> Tad Richards
>
>
> Probably the closest equivalent to Ciardi's old column would be the 
> regular
> poetry features in *The Christian Science Monitor*--middlebrow 
> appreciations
> in a high-circulation venue.
>
> Also:  the Poet's Choice column in the Washington Post, handed off from 
> Hass
> to Dove to Hirsch and now Pinsky.  Plus Billy Collins's *Poetry 180* web
> site and associated anthologies, and now Ted Kooser's *American Life in
> Poetry* column.
>
> And Poetry Daily itself, for heaven's sake, from which one can access all
> the above.
>
> I've heard from several poets featured on Keillor's radio spot and at 
> least
> one poetry editor that, yes, it is a definite if modest aid to sales.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From uche at ogbuji.net  Fri May 20 07:59:25 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 05:59:25 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
In-Reply-To: <056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
	<00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
	<001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
	<010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin>
	<01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <1116590365.1829.304.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 18:46 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> (I think, though this isn't a formal point, that it ties into the way in
> which the speaker isn't externally defined -- we know, in one sense, much
> less of "Sexton" than we do, say, of "Lowell" in +Life Studies+.  The
> speaker is created almost entirely through the images she uses, her
> language, tone, etc., and I think this ties in with the way that the
> controlling formal element is syntactic.)

It seems to me that a speaker "created entirely through images" is not
often going to be able to speak to someone who doesn't inhabit the
poet's very imagination.  Maybe that's why I find Sexton so
excruciating?

> The syntactic structuring (simply to create a catch-all term for what I'm
> trying to describe) links into the way in which line lengths vary more than
> the norm, but at the same time, the variation isn't arbitrary.

What's non-arbitrary about it?  You don't say.

> That for starters.  I can't think of anyone else who does quite this, but
> there may be ... Suggestions?

First I'd have to know what it is you claim Sexton does.  I don't think
I got it from your paragraphs.

> Sure, but as I said to you earlier backchannel, I'd been deep in Plath for
> years, so whatever it was I found in Sexton that "solved" my problem, it had
> to be something that *wasn't* in Plath.  Bit anecdotal that, but that's the
> best I can put it.

Plath is the best free-verse Poet I've read, and to me the difference in
craftsmanship and engagement between Plath and Sexton is a chasm.  I've
never understood how people could compare Sexton to Plath (probably
because they were friends, and they both committed suicide: I suspect
the biographical parallels prompt people to an unfortunate critical
parallel).  If course, that's all just my taste.

O well.  Time and tradition will tell.  And if Sexton is remembered in
the next 100 years, perhaps by then someone will have a comprehensible
explanation of why.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From tad at opus40.org  Fri May 20 08:34:27 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:34:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor reading with Kenneth Bernard and
	HalvardJohnson: May 23 & May 24 NYC 
References: <d04e600c8ec196839cd84b9fcb5021d6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006e01c55d38$481589d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Wish I could be there ... a family funeral that day.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "UB Poetics discussion group" <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
Cc: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:30 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor reading with Kenneth Bernard and 
HalvardJohnson: May 23 & May 24 NYC


> Readings: One Gal and Two Guys
>
> Mon., May 23 -- 6:00 pm
> Lynda Schor and Kenneth Bernard (both reading fiction)
> Cornelia Street Cafe (on Cornelia St. betw. Bleecker St. and W. 4th St.)
> NYC
>
> Tues., May 24 -- 7:30 pm
> Lynda Schor (fiction) and Halvard Johnson (poetry)
> Westbeth Community Room
> 155 Bank St. in the West Village
> NYC
>
>
>
> Hal   Serving the tristate area.
>
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri May 20 08:38:53 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:38:53 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin>
	<016b01c55cdf$c0dfc500$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00b701c55d38$e271d5b0$07042cd9@Robin>

> Thanks for the detailed interesting response, Robin.  But I want
more--like
> examples.  Can't really say much without them, except that I don't yet see
> from what you say that Sexton was doing anything significally different.
>
> --Bob

K.  Will do.  Later.

Robin




From lesrho at fullnet.net  Fri May 20 08:50:47 2005
From: lesrho at fullnet.net (LesRho)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 06:50:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] LUVUBYE as a parting Greeting
Message-ID: <000a01c55d3a$9f113ac0$190be2d8@retiredud69srz>

       Abbreviating Goodbye   (by Les Easley; SFO  A Franciscan Poet)                                      

Goodbyes are what is said
To those we love alive or dead

I recently heard someone say
That goodbye meant "have a good day"

Precisely; go in peace in God's name
Or some such phrase that meant the same

But lately God has been left out
Of exit greetings we sometimes shout

Computerese greetings seem like a lie
When all we close with is "luvubye'

It's doubtful God  really gives a care
That our goodbyes aren't real or fair

What I thought I first heard I wondered why
Anyone would close memos with a lullaby

Do we mix good words from lack of time
>From laziness or to find words thar rhyme?

We've adjusted to pc'sand what they've done
Or has luvubyes as endings, just begun?
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri May 20 09:17:00 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:17:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin>
	<1116590365.1829.304.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <00d101c55d3e$3576a290$07042cd9@Robin>

> It seems to me that a speaker "created entirely through images" is not
> often going to be able to speak to someone who doesn't inhabit the
> poet's very imagination.  Maybe that's why I find Sexton so
> excruciating?

Well, I'm talking very specifically about +Awful Rowing Towards God+ for the
moment, which seems to me to work even if you don't inhabit Sexton's
imaginative midset.  I'd see your comment above as more applicable to, say,
Dylan Thomas.

> > The syntactic structuring (simply to create a catch-all term for what
I'm
> > trying to describe) links into the way in which line lengths vary more
than
> > the norm, but at the same time, the variation isn't arbitrary.
>
> What's non-arbitrary about it?  You don't say.

Arbitrary is what Bob was talking about when he mentioned <terminal
line-breaks in the "wrong place>.  I thought I'd dealt with this, but maybe
I wasn't clear.

But Bob's right, for this to go further, we need specifics.  When we're all
saying "Sexton", who knows what we mean?  So shall we come back to this when
I manage to pick a passage that I can post (without breaking the copyright
laws.  Too much.)

> First I'd have to know what it is you claim Sexton does.  I don't think
> I got it from your paragraphs.

I wasn't entirely happy myself, so I was rather hoping for a *specific*
challenge to force me to focus more.  It's not that I don't see what you
mean in the para above, Uche, but it doesn't really help me forward.  No
reason why you should, though.  Maybe again, when we have a specific
passage?

> Plath is the best free-verse Poet I've read, and to me the difference in
> craftsmanship and engagement between Plath and Sexton is a chasm.

Um.  I'm not sure just why I wouldn't characterise Plath as "free verse" (or
even why not) -- I think perhaps because "free verse" is so catch-all
finally, and what Plath is doing, for better or worse, is something more
specific.

But perhaps Gregory would like to come in on this, over the
Plath-and-free-verse issue?

Also, I disagree with your judgement, Uche.  what about Ezra Pound?
Willy-nilly, the range of techniques Plath deployed in her poems was *much*
narrower than those Pound used.  And used well.

> I've
> never understood how people could compare Sexton to Plath (probably
> because they were friends, and they both committed suicide: I suspect
> the biographical parallels prompt people to an unfortunate critical
> parallel).  If course, that's all just my taste.

Well, I've a friend who's just encountered Sexton for the first time, and
part of her reaction was to think how much *better* than Plath Sexton was.
So this could be argued both ways, and could be a hell of a complicated
argument.

I think the link goes beyond the suicide business, beyond they were college
room-mates, beyond the occasional overlap of imagery in Sexton's early work
(which Joanna immediately noticed when she began reading Sexton) and has
most to do with that they were the two most prominent members of the Second
Generation American Confessional Poets.

Then stir Anne Stevenson into the mix, about exactly of an age with Plath
and Sexton, biographer of Plath, written a sequence of poems about Plath,
and (though the word wasn't around when she began writing) New Formalist to
Plath and Sexton's free verse.

Plath and Stevenson looked back to Lowell, Anne Stevenson looked back to
Elizabeth Bishop.

I mean, if we're going to explore this, let's draw a full map of the
territory at issue.  <g>

> O well.  Time and tradition will tell.

Concur

> And if Sexton is remembered in
> the next 100 years, perhaps by then someone will have a comprehensible
> explanation of why.

Ditto for Plath.  And Anne Stevenson.

        The Stone Dormouse




From JforJames at aol.com  Fri May 20 09:30:15 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:30:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seamus Heaney : The Poet and the Piper 
Message-ID: <15b.5170d30e.2fbf4067@aol.com>

POETICA
21/05/2005 15:00
26/05/2005 21:00 (repeat)

Seamus  Heaney : The Poet and the Piper
URL:  http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1351402.htm

This program  combines the voice of Seamus Heaney (one of Ireland's and 
the world's  foremost poets) reading his own verse, with the music of 
Liam O'Flynn,  acknowledged as a contemporary master of the Uilleann  pipes

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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri May 20 09:33:58 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:33:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <013701c55cc1$1e1d08f0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BEB0DBD4.12200%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<013701c55cc1$1e1d08f0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05052006331fed6c52@mail.gmail.com>

 One of the most asinine things that I've ever read. Amazing.
 Jeff Newberry
  
Frost was as effective a poet as just about anyone, but not important. 
> --Bob G.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri May 20 09:37:27 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:37:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove, Angelou
In-Reply-To: <1116589721.1829.294.camel@malatesta>
References: <BEB21BEE.122AA%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00ec01c55cbc$375ee4a0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1116589721.1829.294.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05052006375ae5f958@mail.gmail.com>

Uche,
 I couldn't agree with you more.
 Thanks!
 Jeff Newberry

 On 5/20/05, Uche Ogbuji <uche at ogbuji.net> wrote: 
> 
> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 17:46 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> > A third factor is that there are so many more people now, and so many 
> more
> > poets, and varieties of poets--and no easy figure in poetry to focus on,
> > except, I guess, Rita Dove or Maya Angelou.
> 
> Rita Dove? I wish. Seems to me Angelou dominates the scene. And this
> is a pity. Dove is a good poet, methinks, whereas Angelou should be
> forcibly drafted to Saturday Night Live to write the "Deep Thoughts"
> skit.
> 
> --
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri May 20 09:42:45 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:42:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
Message-ID: <102.61694d23.2fbf4355@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 5/19/2005 9:34:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

Frost  had as much technical skill as any poet of the 20th century, it 
>  should
> go without saying.

That would depend.  He was as  good with conventional techniques as any poet 
then, I suppose.  Pound  and Cummings had far more technical skill, because 
able to use the tools  of Frost almost as well as he, but use many other 
tools he did not use as  well as he used his.



Bob, it seems your prejudice is all toward external 
manifestations of innovation. Beyond Frost's evident mastery 
with various existing poetic techniques, Frost's great resource 
was the philosophical and psychological depth he was able 
to vest his best poems with. He became great the old-fashioned
way...by writing some great poems that aren't likely to ebb 
from public consciousness as long as we have a literate populace. 
Finnegan
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri May 20 11:05:26 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:05:26 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
Message-ID: <200505201343.j4KDh9I7078154@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

Maybe because of her rock band!

----------
>From: Uche Ogbuji <uche at ogbuji.net>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Cc: Joanna Boulter <joanna.boulter at ntlworld.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
>Date: Fri, May 20, 2005, 3:59 AM
>

>  And if Sexton is remembered in
> the next 100 years, perhaps by then someone will have a comprehensible
> explanation of why.
>
> --
> Uche Ogbuji


From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Fri May 20 10:20:49 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:20:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seamus Heaney : The Poet and the Piper
In-Reply-To: <15b.5170d30e.2fbf4067@aol.com>
References: <15b.5170d30e.2fbf4067@aol.com>
Message-ID: <33abf27505052007206b4571da@mail.gmail.com>

Is this to be broadcast only at the times you provided? What time zone
is this in, please, so I can figure out what it is in US eastern
standard.

Shoot, and I'm not going to be in town tomorrow at all. Is anybody
technically savvy with recording programs? Is there any way someone
can record this and send the recorded file around? Please?



On 5/20/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> POETICA
> 21/05/2005 15:00
> 26/05/2005 21:00 (repeat)
> 
> Seamus Heaney : The Poet and the Piper
> URL:
> http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1351402.htm
> 
> This program combines the voice of Seamus Heaney (one of Ireland's and 
> the world's foremost poets) reading his own verse, with the music of 
> Liam O'Flynn, acknowledged as a contemporary master of the Uilleann pipes
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
>



From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri May 20 10:48:22 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:48:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
References: <200505201343.j4KDh9I7078154@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <007d01c55d4a$f8d997e0$f40a9942@Helen>

her brilliant images
her unique way of thinking about the world
her ability to turn fairy tales upside down
her humor

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Stroffolino " <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; 
Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Cc: "Joanna Boulter" <joanna.boulter at ntlworld.com>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)


> Maybe because of her rock band!
>
> ----------
>>From: Uche Ogbuji <uche at ogbuji.net>
>>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>Cc: Joanna Boulter <joanna.boulter at ntlworld.com>
>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
>>Date: Fri, May 20, 2005, 3:59 AM
>>
>
>>  And if Sexton is remembered in
>> the next 100 years, perhaps by then someone will have a comprehensible
>> explanation of why.
>>
>> --
>> Uche Ogbuji
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri May 20 11:06:47 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:06:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
In-Reply-To: <007d01c55d4a$f8d997e0$f40a9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <BEB36737.12355%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Worth bearing in mind is that there's quite a difference between early &
late Sexton, even despite her relatively brief poetic career.

Look how much has changed in four years, for instance.  Here's one from
1962:


The Truth the Dead Know


   *For my Mother, born March 1902, died March 1959
   and my Father, born February 1900, died June 1959*


Gone, I say and walk from church,
refusing the stiff procession to the grave,
letting the dead ride alone in the hearse.
It is June.  I am tired of being brave.

We drive to the Cape.  I cultivate
myself where the sun gutters from the sky,
where the sea swings in like an iron gate
and we touch.  In another country people die.

My darling, the wind falls in like stones
from the whitehearted water and when we touch
we enter touch entirely.  No one's alone.
Men kill for this, or for as much.

And what of the dead?  They lie without shoes
in the stone boats.  They are more like stone
than the sea would be if it stopped.  They refuse
to be blessed, throat, eye and knucklebone.
_______________________


And from 1966:

Consorting With Angels

I was tired of being a woman,
tired of the spoons and pots,
tired of my mouth and my breasts,
tired of the cosmetics and the silks.
There were men who sat at my table,
circled around the bowl I offered up.
The bowl was filled with purple grapes
and the flies hovered in for the scent
and even my father came with his white bone.
But I was tired of the gender of things.

Last night I had a dream
and I said to it...
"You are the answer.
You will outlive my husband and my father."
In that dream there was a city made of chains
where Joan was put to death in man's clothes
and the nature of the angels went unexplained,
no two made in the same species,
one with a nose, one with an ear in its hand,
one chewing a star and recording its orbit,
each one like a poem obeying itself,
performing God's functions,
a people apart.

"You are the answer,"
I said, and entered,
lying down on the gates of the city.
Then the chains were fastened around me
and I lost my common gender and my final aspect.
Adam was on the left of me,
Eve was on the right of me,
both thoroughly inconsistent with the world of reason.
We wove our arms together
and rode under the sun.
I was not a woman anymore,
not one thing or the other.

O daughters of Jerusalem,
the king has brought me to his chamber.
I am black and I am beautiful.
I've been opened and undressed.
I have no arms or legs.
I'm all one skin like a fish.
I'm no more a woman
than Christ was a man.

***********************




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May 20 11:08:47 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:08:47 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor reading with Kenneth Bernard
	andHalvardJohnson: May 23 & May 24 NYC 
References: <d04e600c8ec196839cd84b9fcb5021d6@earthlink.net>
	<006e01c55d38$481589d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <001001c55d4d$d338b0e0$a4ab3252@ANNY>

I also wish I could be there, on Cornelia St. , Ah!

all the best to you, Anny

From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 2:34 PM


> Wish I could be there ... a family funeral that day.
> 
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> To: "UB Poetics discussion group" <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Cc: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:30 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor reading with Kenneth Bernard and 
> HalvardJohnson: May 23 & May 24 NYC
> 
> 
>> Readings: One Gal and Two Guys
>>
>> Mon., May 23 -- 6:00 pm
>> Lynda Schor and Kenneth Bernard (both reading fiction)
>> Cornelia Street Cafe (on Cornelia St. betw. Bleecker St. and W. 4th St.)
>> NYC
>>
>> Tues., May 24 -- 7:30 pm
>> Lynda Schor (fiction) and Halvard Johnson (poetry)
>> Westbeth Community Room
>> 155 Bank St. in the West Village
>> NYC
>>
>>
>>
>> Hal   Serving the tristate area.
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> halvard at earthlink.net
>> halvard at gmail.com
>> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri May 20 11:21:54 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:21:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seamus Heaney : The Poet and the Piper
Message-ID: <9f.5f73c728.2fbf5a92@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/20/2005 10:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
snakecharmer at gmail.com writes:
Is this to be broadcast only at the times you provided? What time zone
is this in, please, so I can figure out what it is in US eastern
standard.
I think if you go back to this page (below) next week, you'll
be able to listen to it. (Note: Adrience Rich on real audio
from prior broadcast.) 
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/


Finnegan
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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Fri May 20 11:45:36 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:45:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seamus Heaney : The Poet and the Piper
In-Reply-To: <9f.5f73c728.2fbf5a92@aol.com>
References: <9f.5f73c728.2fbf5a92@aol.com>
Message-ID: <33abf27505052008457a19f8ba@mail.gmail.com>

Great!  Thanks.


On 5/20/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/20/2005 10:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> snakecharmer at gmail.com writes:
> Is this to be broadcast only at the times you provided? What time zone
> is this in, please, so I can figure out what it is in US eastern
> standard.
> I think if you go back to this page (below) next week, you'll
> be able to listen to it. (Note: Adrience Rich on real audio
> from prior broadcast.) 
> http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/
>  
>  
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
>



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri May 20 11:47:31 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:47:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work of Constrained English Literature?
Message-ID: <c.455536ca.2fbf6093@aol.com>

Local Poet Joshua Corey to read at the Tompkins County Public Library
http://www.theithacajournal.com/entertainment/stories/20050519/culturalevents/
2138790.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Poet Joshua Corey will be reading from his newly released second book, 
"Fourier Series," at the Tompkins County Public Library at 101 E. Green Street in 
the Borg-Warner Room at 7:30 PM on May 25, 2005. The book will be on sale after 
the reading at a special 10% discount and Corey will be available to sign 
copies. The event is free and open to the public. 
"Fourier Series" is the winner of the Fitzpatrick-O'Dinn Award for Best 
Book-Length Work of Constrained English Literature, as judged by Christian Bok. 
 
About Fourier Series, Christian Bok writes: "Joshua Corey writes a poetic 
series based upon the psychosocial permutations imagined by the utopian thinker 
Charles Fourier. Corey arranges a resonant, emotional lexicon into a quadratic 
structure that emulates in language the kind of interpersonal relationships 
that, according to Fourier, might ideally define a social utopia of competitive 
cooperation. Just as Fourier imagines a set of artfully designed communes, in 
which members, chosen for their variegated talents, but compatible passions, 
might coexist in a state of harmonic integrity, so also has Corey selected a 
diverse ensemble of elegant, sensual phrases and arranged them into an array 
that highlights the beautiful potential inherent within the force-field of 
language itself." 
 
Corey's first book, "Selah," was chosen by Robert Pinsky as the winner of the 
first annual Barrow Street Book Contest and was published by Barrow Street in 
2003. His poems and essays have appeared in numerous journals and webzines, 
including LIT, Typo, Colorado Review, Octopus, VOLT, and the American Poetry 
Review. In 2005 he was a participant in the Festival of New American Poets 
sponsored by the Poetry Society of America at New School University in New York 
City. 
 
He lives in Ithaca, New York where he is writing a dissertation on 
avant-garde pastoral and keeps a weblog, Cahiers de Corey: 
 
http://joshcorey.blogspot.com 
 
For more information, visit www.thebookery.com 
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From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Fri May 20 12:11:27 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:11:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete / Visual / Sexton
Message-ID: <200505201611.j4KGBRZo001753@mail6.atl.registeredsite.com>

9

Concrete / Visual / Sexton

Thank you, Robin.  And thank you for welcoming me to the list, I really do 
appreciate it.  

Of course I was listening (and lurking), and I?m sure (well, not entirely) 
there were and are others (who were listening, if not lurking).  And I?m sure 
they were, like myself, fascinated.  

You know in that essay that I quote from in my essay, the one by Rosmarie 
Waldrop, she gives good indication of where to locate concrete poetry.  But 
she doesn?t say where the name ?concrete? came from.  I think this is 
important if we are to locate the break in continuity (the very beginnings of 
that break) with poetry.  That there is a continuity between poetry and 
concrete poetry, I don?t think anyone will object to -- after all, the carmen 
figuratum (the shape or ?figure? poem, also called the ?pattern? or, later, the 
?typewriter? poem) was always available to the poet, should he be so moved 
to express himself in that ?form.?  I think the term ?concrete? came from, 
and was appropriated from, ?concrete art.?  The term ?concrete art? was 
invented by Theo van Doesburg in 1930 to refer to abstract art that was 
based not in nature but in geometry and the formal properties of art itself.  
The underlying idea was that an artwork has value as an independent object, 
even if it doesn?t illuminate social concerns or express an artist?s emotions.  
This is, I think, what Waldrop is talking about.  My next point is that while 
we have to take into consideration concrete poetry?s pedigree in poetry (a 
pedigree that I think ?visual poetry? is forsaking, if not outright 
dispossessing itself of), given the above about the term ?concrete,? we also 
must acknowledge its other pedigree, which is found, I say, in concrete art.  

So there are two rather distinct pedigrees here vying for predominance.  On 
the one hand we have poetry, and on the other, art.  I think if we are to locate 
a break in the continuity between concrete poetry and visual poetry, we 
might do very well to look here, and we will see, I think, that art has taken 
predominance.  What remains of poetry is the use of elements of language 
(letters, words, text -- we can already see in the concrete poetry of the fifties 
and sixties the use of elements of language for graphic rather than poetic or 
semantic purposes), but, as I just said, not for poetic or semantic purposes, 
but for graphic or pictorial or, even, symbolic purposes.  This is, in my 
opinion, why ?visual poetry? no longer bears any (or slight) resemblance to 
poetry, notwithstanding its employment of elements of language.  

When you mentioned ?strict typographical and enhanced typographical,? I 
felt you were very close to seeing what, in my judgment, anyway, is the case 
-- so I felt I had to chime in with my opinion.  The ?enhanced typographical? 
elements are one station on the way to what ?visual poetry? is today. . . .  

By the way, here is the url to a concrete poem I wrote.  Maybe take a look?  

http://xpressed.freezope.org/xstream/issue2/gfg.jpg

In this poem I try to depict motion, and (depending on the size of your 
screen) this is seen in the air bubbles rising from ?someone?s? corpse at the 
bottom of the sea.  You should see ?the motion? as you scroll down the 
screen. . . .  It?s been said about this poem (that anxiety of influence thing) 
that I am picturing Bob Grumman dead, but that?s not true (or else it wasn?t 
true at the time I wrote it).  If you?re looking at this on a cinema screen (as I 
am) try reducing the size of the screen.  (I wrote it for a small laptop-size 
screen.)  

The discussion over Sexton had me looking in my copy of her Complete 
Poems.  And in there, in the foreword by Maxine Kumin, the subject of the 
formal elements in Sexton?s poetry is addressed.  And it seems Sexton was 
indeed concerned about the formal elements of her poetry.  There is also 
consideration as to what accounted for her incredible popularity.  And it 
seems it was not on account of any formal elements in her poems, or, rather, 
it was on account of her subject matter (as everybody here, I think, realizes).  
Kumin writes:  

?Women poets in particular owe a debt to Anne Sexton, who broke new 
ground, shattered taboos, and endured a barrage of attacks along the way 
because of the flamboyance of her subject matter, which, twenty years later, 
seems far less daring.  She wrote openly about menstruation, abortion, 
masturbation, incest, adultery, and drug addiction at a time when the 
proprieties embraced none of these as proper topics for poetry.?  

And finally, before I wear out my welcome, I?ll chime in on Sexton v. Plath.  
Both Sexton and Plath have distinctive early works and later works.  Sexton 
wrote more than Plath.  The Awful Rowing (1975) is later Sexton (her last 
volume before her death?).  Both poets, when you get to their later works, 
are by now in what would be complete control of their craft (albeit, who 
knows about Plath -- and who knows, if she had lived, what her work 
would have become?).  Plath had Ted Hughes to vie with (no small matter).  
I think Hughes was an awesome poet, in complete control of the language.  
Perfectly masculine, a force of nature.  All Sexton had were her ills (I almost 
said, her ?companionable ills?).  And while her ills were a force of nature 
too, I think they eventually got the better of her:  

Why shouldn?t I pull down my pants
and moon at the executioner
as well as paste raisins on my breasts?
Why shouldn?t I pull down my pants
and show my little cunny to Tom
and Albert?  They wee-wee funny.
I wee-wee like a squaw.
I have ink but no pen, still
I dream that I can piss in God?s eye.
I dream I?m a boy with a zipper.
It?s so practical, la de dah. 

from HURRY UP PLEASE IT?S TIME
by Anne Sexton




Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino

9




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May 20 14:01:53 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 20:01:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] a Prize
Message-ID: <002d01c55d66$01146b90$5cd63152@ANNY>


I think someone will remember the _Bosco dei Poeti_ (Woods of the POets) of which I talked some time ago, the one that my friend Lorenzo Menguzzato -Lome opened to invite us, this year for the third time to have a reading and a good lunch and some time out in the woods instead of in a room or at the swimming-pool.

Well here is the news: he won the 25,000 Euro award by Telecom right in these days. He called me last night and was all so proud.

The jury: Umberto Eco, Riccardo Chiaberge, Dario Del Corno, Philippe Daverio, Andrea Kerbaker, Marco Magnifico, Renato Mannheimer, Vittorio Sermonti, Andr?e Ruth Shammah, Massimo Vitta Zelman, Ugo Volli.

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri May 20 15:14:14 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:14:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work of Constrained English Literature?
References: <c.455536ca.2fbf6093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004401c55d70$1d45a130$cf0c9942@Helen>

psychosocial permutations of Fourier? 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 11:47 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Work of Constrained English Literature?


  Local Poet Joshua Corey to read at the Tompkins County Public Library

  http://www.theithacajournal.com/entertainment/stories/20050519/culturalevents/2138790.html

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   

  Poet Joshua Corey will be reading from his newly released second book, "Fourier Series," at the Tompkins County Public Library at 101 E. Green Street in the Borg-Warner Room at 7:30 PM on May 25, 2005. The book will be on sale after the reading at a special 10% discount and Corey will be available to sign copies. The event is free and open to the public. 

  "Fourier Series" is the winner of the Fitzpatrick-O'Dinn Award for Best Book-Length Work of Constrained English Literature, as judged by Christian Bok. 

   

  About Fourier Series, Christian Bok writes: "Joshua Corey writes a poetic series based upon the psychosocial permutations imagined by the utopian thinker Charles Fourier. Corey arranges a resonant, emotional lexicon into a quadratic structure that emulates in language the kind of interpersonal relationships that, according to Fourier, might ideally define a social utopia of competitive cooperation. Just as Fourier imagines a set of artfully designed communes, in which members, chosen for their variegated talents, but compatible passions, might coexist in a state of harmonic integrity, so also has Corey selected a diverse ensemble of elegant, sensual phrases and arranged them into an array that highlights the beautiful potential inherent within the force-field of language itself." 

   

  Corey's first book, "Selah," was chosen by Robert Pinsky as the winner of the first annual Barrow Street Book Contest and was published by Barrow Street in 2003. His poems and essays have appeared in numerous journals and webzines, including LIT, Typo, Colorado Review, Octopus, VOLT, and the American Poetry Review. In 2005 he was a participant in the Festival of New American Poets sponsored by the Poetry Society of America at New School University in New York City. 

   

  He lives in Ithaca, New York where he is writing a dissertation on avant-garde pastoral and keeps a weblog, Cahiers de Corey: 

   

  http://joshcorey.blogspot.com 

   

  For more information, visit www.thebookery.com 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri May 20 16:18:12 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:18:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin><1116590365.1829.304.camel@malatesta>
	<00d101c55d3e$3576a290$07042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <007101c55d79$0c81b420$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I think I have no posts to this thread to answer but will just say, in 
response to Uche's opinion that Plath is the best free verse poet he's read 
that Robert W. Service is the best formalist I've read.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri May 20 16:27:23 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:27:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB0DBD4.12200%grahamd@ripon.edu><013701c55cc1$1e1d08f0$29b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a05052006331fed6c52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009001c55d7a$55307700$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

One of the most asinine things that I've ever read.  Amazing.

  Jeff Newberry




    Frost was as effective a poet as just about anyone, but not important. 
    --Bob G.

    Ah, but if you reflected momentarily, Jeff, and thought that maybe I'm not a moron, you might consider that you weren't understanding me.  Of course, if you had a memory, you might remember a distinction I made between effectiveness as a poet, and importance as a poet.

    --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri May 20 16:29:37 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:29:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <102.61694d23.2fbf4355@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00a401c55d7a$a47dd370$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Frost had as much technical skill as any poet of the 20th century, it 
> should
> go without saying.

That would depend.  He was as good with conventional techniques as any poet 
then, I suppose.  Pound and Cummings had far more technical skill, because 
able to use the tools of Frost almost as well as he, but use many other 
tools he did not use as well as he used his.

  Bob, it seems your prejudice is all toward external 
  manifestations of innovation. Beyond Frost's evident mastery 
  with various existing poetic techniques, Frost's great resource 
  was the philosophical and psychological depth he was able 
  to vest his best poems with. He became great the old-fashioned
  way...by writing some great poems that aren't likely to ebb 
  from public consciousness as long as we have a literate populace. 
  Finnegan
  What does that have to do with technical skill, which was the matter under discussion, James?

  --Bob G.


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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri May 20 17:04:34 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:04:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
Message-ID: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/20/2005 4:30:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
What does that have to do with technical skill, which was the matter under 
discussion, James? 
--Bob G. 

Nothing, Bob...that was my point. There is more than one
way to greatness. Frost got there by delivering the goods.
You focus too much on the flash and o-golly-gee-whiz of 
new techniques. Now that Star Wars is again splashing
all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
Finnegan
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From tad at opus40.org  Fri May 20 16:44:24 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:44:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a Prize
References: <002d01c55d66$01146b90$5cd63152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <00a601c55d80$a1e89ae0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Cheers!


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 2:01 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] a Prize



  I think someone will remember the _Bosco dei Poeti_ (Woods of the POets) of which I talked some time ago, the one that my friend Lorenzo Menguzzato -Lome opened to invite us, this year for the third time to have a reading and a good lunch and some time out in the woods instead of in a room or at the swimming-pool.

  Well here is the news: he won the 25,000 Euro award by Telecom right in these days. He called me last night and was all so proud.

  The jury: Umberto Eco, Riccardo Chiaberge, Dario Del Corno, Philippe Daverio, Andrea Kerbaker, Marco Magnifico, Renato Mannheimer, Vittorio Sermonti, Andr?e Ruth Shammah, Massimo Vitta Zelman, Ugo Volli.

  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri May 20 17:22:36 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:22:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/20/05 4:04 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

Nothing, Bob...that was my point. There is more than one
way to greatness. Frost got there by delivering the goods.
You focus too much on the flash and o-golly-gee-whiz of
new techniques. Now that Star Wars is again splashing
all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
Finnegan
-------------------

Amen to all the above.  I would also say that Frost's technical skill is not
merely excellence at traditional modes, though very few in the tradition
could equal him at sheer lyric brilliance, at his control and power of
meter, syntax, rhyme, etc.

Looking at Frost historically,  he also did innovate, finding, in his own
phrase, old-fashioned ways to be new.  As many critics have noted, he pushed
metrical verse further into conversational English than any previous poet.
So if innovation is doing something never done before, Frost deserves his
place alongside Pound and Cummings and Williams and the rest.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May 20 17:27:16 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 23:27:16 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <102.61694d23.2fbf4355@aol.com>
	<00a401c55d7a$a47dd370$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <012101c55d82$b2589a90$5cd63152@ANNY>


I know that I am not saying anything new, still I wish to say it. I can even accept rhyme (_apologies_) if and whenever there is a poetic glimpse that opens my way of seeing things.

Since we are talking of seeing, selected visual and concrete poetry act quickly on me -as movies, music do, philosophy and traditional poetry are slower, 

I don't think that what is conveyed should be measured in time length but in quality scanned into emotional and rational depths and heights (as James Finnegan rightly says) - Leonardo's sphere circling around man - and to make that sphere bigger and rounder, this is maybe the greatest illusion - bigger than Balzac's one - because Jung showed how right eats down from left and height from depth.

I also know that I am not giving a satifying contribution to Bob's question, but I did not follow all the mails, quite a busiest moment for me.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 10:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument


  Frost had as much technical skill as any poet of the 20th century, it 
  > should
  > go without saying.

  That would depend.  He was as good with conventional techniques as any poet 
  then, I suppose.  Pound and Cummings had far more technical skill, because 
  able to use the tools of Frost almost as well as he, but use many other 
  tools he did not use as well as he used his.

    Bob, it seems your prejudice is all toward external 
    manifestations of innovation. Beyond Frost's evident mastery 
    with various existing poetic techniques, Frost's great resource 
    was the philosophical and psychological depth he was able 
    to vest his best poems with. He became great the old-fashioned
    way...by writing some great poems that aren't likely to ebb 
    from public consciousness as long as we have a literate populace. 
    Finnegan
    What does that have to do with technical skill, which was the matter under discussion, James? 

    --Bob G. 





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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri May 20 17:39:33 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:39:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00df01c55d84$69a90d00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

    What does that have to do with technical skill, which was the matter under discussion, James? 

    --Bob G. 



  Nothing, Bob...that was my point.

  If you wanted to change the discussion, why didn't you start a new thread?
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri May 20 17:39:46 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 22:39:46 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <028001c55d84$71b76dc0$07042cd9@Robin>

Re:The unkillable argumentFrom: David Graham

<<
As many critics have noted, [Frost] pushed metrical verse further into
conversational English than any previous poet.
>>

Um, what about Alexander Pope a wee bit earlier?

"Shut, shut the door, good John," fatigued I said,
"Tie up the knocker, say I'm sick, I'm dead."

The Romantics seem to have been all-too-successful in obliterating the fact
that one of the strengths of Pope and others of his time, such as Lady Mary
Wortly Montagu, was in just this area.

Of course, if you draw a line after 1890, that's another matter.

Robin




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri May 20 17:57:15 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:57:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re:The unkillable argument

    Nothing, Bob...that was my point. There is more than one
    way to greatness. Frost got there by delivering the goods.
    You focus too much on the flash and o-golly-gee-whiz of 
    new techniques. Now that Star Wars is again splashing
    all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
    that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
    of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
    etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.

  Finnegan
  -------------------

  Amen to all the above.  I would also say that Frost's technical skill is not merely excellence at traditional modes, though very few in the tradition could equal him at sheer lyric brilliance, at his control and power of meter, syntax, rhyme, etc.  

  Looking at Frost historically,  he also did innovate, finding, in his own phrase, old-fashioned ways to be new.  As many critics have noted, he pushed metrical verse further into conversational English than any previous poet.   So if innovation is doing something never done before, Frost deserves his place alongside Pound and Cummings and Williams and the rest.   

  ====================================================
  David Graham


  New subject matter, new lexicons, new points of view are innovative, but they are not innovative TECHNICALLY.  They are innovative in a way every reasonably accomplished poet is.  For example, I use subject matter, a lexicon and a point of view in my poetry that no other poet does.  So did Pound, Cummings, Williams and the rest.  So do you, David, and so does Sam and, I suspect, just about every other poet posting to New-Poetry.  The difference between the trio of Cummings, Williams and Pound and Frost is that they ALSO were technically innovative; he was not.

  That is, I can name specific technical innovations the trio used such as what I call the "syllabreak" of Cummings.  The syllabreak is not a way of using a standard device in a new way, it is a new device.  I've listed twelve such devices that Cummings, in my view, pioneered in the use of or originated.  Williams and Pound also pioneered and originated certain new techniques.  I do not believe anyone can do the same for Frost.  This does not mean he was second-rate; it simply means he was not an innovator.

  --Bob G.
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Fri May 20 18:44:16 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:44:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry]
In-Reply-To: <00a601c55d80$a1e89ae0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <002d01c55d66$01146b90$5cd63152@ANNY>
	<00a601c55d80$a1e89ae0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <428E6840.2030506@ix.netcom.com>

*Move to Democracy Still In The Pipeline, Bush Tells Eastern Europe:
"We really only need ya as beasts of burden, oil pipelines, nuclear 
proliferation and money launderin'," Bush Tells Eastern Europeans:
The Word Democracy Designed As All-Purpose Agitprop To Boost Domestic 
Support For Iraq After Oil Heist Now That Litany Of WMD, al-Qaeda Lies 
And The 2000 Instances Of Cheney Repeating Them To The International 
Media Are Having The Effect Of Sobering Uncle Sam The Drunk If Not To 
The Truth, To At Least, To Stay Out Of The Way Of the Citizenry With 
Balls Enough To Bear The Truth:
**/By MILKEM FILTCHER
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/

/***


From mandolin at mac.com  Fri May 20 18:50:37 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:50:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com>


On May 20, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>
>
> Nothing, Bob...that was my point. There is more than one
> way to greatness. Frost got there by delivering the goods.
> You focus too much on the flash and o-golly-gee-whiz of
> new techniques. Now that Star Wars is again splashing
> all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
> that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
> of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
> etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
> Finnegan
> -------------------
>
> Amen to all the above.  I would also say that Frost's technical  
> skill is not merely excellence at traditional modes, though very  
> few in the tradition could equal him at sheer lyric brilliance, at  
> his control and power of meter, syntax, rhyme, etc.
>
> Looking at Frost historically,  he also did innovate, finding, in  
> his own phrase, old-fashioned ways to be new.  As many critics have  
> noted, he pushed metrical verse further into conversational English  
> than any previous poet.   So if innovation is doing something never  
> done before, Frost deserves his place alongside Pound and Cummings  
> and Williams and the rest.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
>
>
> New subject matter, new lexicons, new points of view are  
> innovative, but they are not innovative TECHNICALLY.  They are  
> innovative in a way every reasonably accomplished poet is.  For  
> example, I use subject matter, a lexicon and a point of view in my  
> poetry that no other poet does.  So did Pound, Cummings, Williams  
> and the rest.  So do you, David, and so does Sam and, I suspect,  
> just about every other poet posting to New-Poetry.  The difference  
> between the trio of Cummings, Williams and Pound and Frost is that  
> they ALSO were technically innovative; he was not.
>
> That is, I can name specific technical innovations the trio used  
> such as what I call the "syllabreak" of Cummings.  The syllabreak  
> is not a way of using a standard device in a new way, it is a new  
> device.  I've listed twelve such devices that Cummings, in my view,  
> pioneered in the use of or originated.  Williams and Pound also  
> pioneered and originated certain new techniques.  I do not believe  
> anyone can do the same for Frost.  This does not mean he was second- 
> rate; it simply means he was not an innovator.
>


No, Bob, it means that,  according to your idiosyncratic criteria, he  
was not an innovator. Your blindness to anything but gizmos as  
innovation and, subsequently, to anything but your blinkered notion  
of innovation as a measure of importance, is not a means of  judgment  
on anyone else for anyone else but you and perhaps your circle. Most  
of the world, and in this I'm with the world, sees Cumming's  
typographical tricks as far less significant, far less important,  
than Frost's ability to movingly portray complexly human ways of  
living in the world.


Mike S.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri May 20 19:38:47 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:38:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu><00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> New subject matter, new lexicons, new points of view are  innovative, but 
>> they are not innovative TECHNICALLY.  They are  innovative in a way every 
>> reasonably accomplished poet is.  For  example, I use subject matter, a 
>> lexicon and a point of view in my  poetry that no other poet does.  So 
>> did Pound, Cummings, Williams  and the rest.  So do you, David, and so 
>> does Sam and, I suspect,  just about every other poet posting to 
>> New-Poetry.  The difference  between the trio of Cummings, Williams and 
>> Pound and Frost is that  they ALSO were technically innovative; he was 
>> not.
>>
>> That is, I can name specific technical innovations the trio used  such as 
>> what I call the "syllabreak" of Cummings.  The syllabreak  is not a way 
>> of using a standard device in a new way, it is a new  device.  I've 
>> listed twelve such devices that Cummings, in my view,  pioneered in the 
>> use of or originated.  Williams and Pound also  pioneered and originated 
>> certain new techniques.  I do not believe  anyone can do the same for 
>> Frost.  This does not mean he was second- rate; it simply means he was 
>> not a TECHNICAL innovator.
>>
I was speaking of technical innovation throughout but forgot to make it 
explicit in the final sentence.
>
> No, Bob, it means that,  according to your idiosyncratic criteria,

>From any objective point of view, he was not technically innovative.



>he was not an innovator. Your blindness to anything but gizmos as 
>innovation

Learn to read.  I think I may have said there are other ways to be 
innovative besides the technical three or four hundred times--though perhaps 
only fifty times at New-Poetry.  That so many stsguard refuse to take this 
in is quite revealing.

> and, subsequently, to anything but your blinkered notion  of innovation as 
> a measure of importance, is not a means of  judgment  on anyone else for 
> anyone else but you and perhaps your circle.

My circle is as against me as your circle is.  But you should note that when 
I use the word "importance" in discussing poets, I first define it (except 
when assuming the reader remembers my definition).  No one, I note, ever 
suggests a better term, and I haven't had time to think of one.  Nor does 
anyone in your circle try to refute the points I make, the main one here 
being that Cummings, as one example, was as innovative as Frost in all the 
ways Frost but was ALSO technically innovative.  I would agree that Frost 
was better in many respects than Cummings but not that he introduced more 
new subject matter, more new locutions, more new angles on existence, etc. 
And he introduced no significant new ways of making poetry.

Why has no one listed any follower of his (whom you can show was 
specifically a follower of his and not of Hardy or Tennyson or Arnold or 
Pope or Shakespeare)?

Most
> of the world, and in this I'm with the world, sees Cumming's 
> typographical tricks as far less significant, far less important,  than 
> Frost's ability to movingly portray complexly human ways of  living in the 
> world.
>
>
> Mike S.

Most of the world prefers the poetry of Maya Angelou to that of either 
Cummings or Frost.

--Bob G. 




From mandolin at mac.com  Fri May 20 21:00:52 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:00:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com>
	<011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com>


On May 20, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>>> New subject matter, new lexicons, new points of view are   
>>> innovative, but they are not innovative TECHNICALLY.  They are   
>>> innovative in a way every reasonably accomplished poet is.  For   
>>> example, I use subject matter, a lexicon and a point of view in  
>>> my  poetry that no other poet does.  So did Pound, Cummings,  
>>> Williams  and the rest.  So do you, David, and so does Sam and, I  
>>> suspect,  just about every other poet posting to New-Poetry.  The  
>>> difference  between the trio of Cummings, Williams and Pound and  
>>> Frost is that  they ALSO were technically innovative; he was not.
>>>
>>> That is, I can name specific technical innovations the trio used   
>>> such as what I call the "syllabreak" of Cummings.  The  
>>> syllabreak  is not a way of using a standard device in a new way,  
>>> it is a new  device.  I've listed twelve such devices that  
>>> Cummings, in my view,  pioneered in the use of or originated.   
>>> Williams and Pound also  pioneered and originated certain new  
>>> techniques.  I do not believe  anyone can do the same for Frost.   
>>> This does not mean he was second- rate; it simply means he was  
>>> not a TECHNICAL innovator.
>>>
>>>
> I was speaking of technical innovation throughout but forgot to  
> make it explicit in the final sentence.
>
>>
>> No, Bob, it means that,  according to your idiosyncratic criteria,
>>
>
>
>> From any objective point of view, he was not technically innovative.
>>
>
>
>
>
>> he was not an innovator. Your blindness to anything but gizmos as  
>> innovation
>>
>
> Learn to read.  I think I may have said there are other ways to be  
> innovative besides the technical three or four hundred times-- 
> though perhaps only fifty times at New-Poetry.  That so many  
> stsguard refuse to take this in is quite revealing.

.
  And over and over again you say those other ways are unimportant.


>
>> and, subsequently, to anything but your blinkered notion  of  
>> innovation as a measure of importance, is not a means of   
>> judgment  on anyone else for anyone else but you and perhaps your  
>> circle.
>>
>
> My circle is as against me as your circle is.  But you should note  
> that when I use the word "importance" in discussing poets, I first  
> define it (except when assuming the reader remembers my definition).

Yes, you define it. And I think your definition is simply wrong.  
James did offer another definition:  " The characterizations,  
narrative, dialog, etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always  
have." Here's my vrsion: poets are important insofar as they help us  
understand how we and others live.


> No one, I note, ever suggests a better term, and I haven't had time  
> to think of one.  Nor does anyone in your circle try to refute the  
> points I make, the main one here being that Cummings, as one  
> example, was as innovative as Frost in all the ways Frost but was  
> ALSO technically innovative.  I would agree that Frost was better  
> in many respects than Cummings but not that he introduced more new  
> subject matter, more new locutions, more new angles on existence,  
> etc. And he introduced no significant new ways of making poetry.
>
> Why has no one listed any follower of his (whom you can show was  
> specifically a follower of his and not of Hardy or Tennyson or  
> Arnold or Pope or Shakespeare)?
>


Wilbur, Hecht, Nemerov, Hollander, Mezey, Justice, and nearly  
everyone else writing accentual-syllabic verse in the last half-century.



> Most
>
>> of the world, and in this I'm with the world, sees Cumming's  
>> typographical tricks as far less significant, far less important,   
>> than Frost's ability to movingly portray complexly human ways of   
>> living in the world.
>>
>>
>> Mike S.
>>
>
> Most of the world prefers the poetry of Maya Angelou to that of  
> either Cummings or Frost.
>

Manifestly untrue. Frost outsells verybody except Homer, Dante, and  
Milton, and whoever happens to have a new book out or be in the  
news.  Check the Amazon rankings from time to time.

Mike S.



From tad at opus40.org  Fri May 20 18:23:45 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:23:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c55da1$4a1316d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Klaatu barada nicto.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 5:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument


  In a message dated 5/20/2005 4:30:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
    What does that have to do with technical skill, which was the matter under discussion, James? 

    --Bob G. 



  Nothing, Bob...that was my point. There is more than one
  way to greatness. Frost got there by delivering the goods.
  You focus too much on the flash and o-golly-gee-whiz of 
  new techniques. Now that Star Wars is again splashing
  all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
  that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
  of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
  etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
  Finnegan


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri May 20 21:27:25 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:27:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu><00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com><011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <014801c55da4$3f2bc520$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Here's my version: poets are important insofar as they help us  understand 
> how we and others live.

How nice.  Mine would be that they are important to the degree that they 
increase the value of our lives by supplying us with beauty.

>> Why has no one listed any follower of his (whom you can show was 
>> specifically a follower of his and not of Hardy or Tennyson or  Arnold or 
>> Pope or Shakespeare)?
>>
>
>
> Wilbur, Hecht, Nemerov, Hollander, Mezey, Justice, and nearly  everyone 
> else writing accentual-syllabic verse in the last half-century.

What did they do that only Frost did?

>
>
>> Most
>>
>>> of the world, and in this I'm with the world, sees Cumming's 
>>> typographical tricks as far less significant, far less important,   than 
>>> Frost's ability to movingly portray complexly human ways of   living in 
>>> the world.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike S.
>>>
>>
>> Most of the world prefers the poetry of Maya Angelou to that of  either 
>> Cummings or Frost.
>>
>
> Manifestly untrue. Frost outsells everybody except Homer, Dante, and 
> Milton, and whoever happens to have a new book out or be in the  news. 
> Check the Amazon rankings from time to time.
>
> Mike S.

The Amazon rankings are not any final judge.  But I will admit that I never 
thought Frost was a big-seller anymore.  Maya always has more books on 
display in the bigWorld bookstores I've been to.  And my high school has 
more books of hers in its library and on the shelves of its English rooms.

--BG 




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sat May 21 00:12:11 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 00:12:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com>
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>	<00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>	<6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com>	<011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <428EB51B.9020101@ix.netcom.com>

**<Manifestly untrue. Frost outsells verybody except Homer, Dante, and  
Milton, and whoever happens to have a new book out or be in the  news.  
Check the Amazon rankings from time to time.>

Manifestly true e.g  Frost's perpetually brisk sales. I can attest to 
this as a long time bookseller. The 109th printing/ of the trade 
edition/ (before the Book Club)/ on the copyright page/ of the 
Collected/ doesn't even begin/ to tell the tale./ CP

Michael Snider wrote:

>
> On May 20, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>>>> New subject matter, new lexicons, new points of view are   
>>>> innovative, but they are not innovative TECHNICALLY.  They are   
>>>> innovative in a way every reasonably accomplished poet is.  For   
>>>> example, I use subject matter, a lexicon and a point of view in  
>>>> my  poetry that no other poet does.  So did Pound, Cummings,  
>>>> Williams  and the rest.  So do you, David, and so does Sam and, I  
>>>> suspect,  just about every other poet posting to New-Poetry.  The  
>>>> difference  between the trio of Cummings, Williams and Pound and  
>>>> Frost is that  they ALSO were technically innovative; he was not.
>>>>
>>>> That is, I can name specific technical innovations the trio used   
>>>> such as what I call the "syllabreak" of Cummings.  The  syllabreak  
>>>> is not a way of using a standard device in a new way,  it is a new  
>>>> device.  I've listed twelve such devices that  Cummings, in my 
>>>> view,  pioneered in the use of or originated.   Williams and Pound 
>>>> also  pioneered and originated certain new  techniques.  I do not 
>>>> believe  anyone can do the same for Frost.   This does not mean he 
>>>> was second- rate; it simply means he was  not a TECHNICAL innovator.
>>>>
>>>>
>> I was speaking of technical innovation throughout but forgot to  make 
>> it explicit in the final sentence.
>>
>>>
>>> No, Bob, it means that,  according to your idiosyncratic criteria,
>>>
>>
>>
>>> From any objective point of view, he was not technically innovative.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> he was not an innovator. Your blindness to anything but gizmos as  
>>> innovation
>>>
>>
>> Learn to read.  I think I may have said there are other ways to be  
>> innovative besides the technical three or four hundred times-- though 
>> perhaps only fifty times at New-Poetry.  That so many  stsguard 
>> refuse to take this in is quite revealing.
>
>
> .
>  And over and over again you say those other ways are unimportant.
>
>
>>
>>> and, subsequently, to anything but your blinkered notion  of  
>>> innovation as a measure of importance, is not a means of   judgment  
>>> on anyone else for anyone else but you and perhaps your  circle.
>>>
>>
>> My circle is as against me as your circle is.  But you should note  
>> that when I use the word "importance" in discussing poets, I first  
>> define it (except when assuming the reader remembers my definition).
>
>
> Yes, you define it. And I think your definition is simply wrong.  
> James did offer another definition:  " The characterizations,  
> narrative, dialog, etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always  
> have." Here's my vrsion: poets are important insofar as they help us  
> understand how we and others live.
>
>
>> No one, I note, ever suggests a better term, and I haven't had time  
>> to think of one.  Nor does anyone in your circle try to refute the  
>> points I make, the main one here being that Cummings, as one  
>> example, was as innovative as Frost in all the ways Frost but was  
>> ALSO technically innovative.  I would agree that Frost was better  in 
>> many respects than Cummings but not that he introduced more new  
>> subject matter, more new locutions, more new angles on existence,  
>> etc. And he introduced no significant new ways of making poetry.
>>
>> Why has no one listed any follower of his (whom you can show was  
>> specifically a follower of his and not of Hardy or Tennyson or  
>> Arnold or Pope or Shakespeare)?
>>
>
>
> Wilbur, Hecht, Nemerov, Hollander, Mezey, Justice, and nearly  
> everyone else writing accentual-syllabic verse in the last half-century.
>
>
>
>> Most
>>
>>> of the world, and in this I'm with the world, sees Cumming's  
>>> typographical tricks as far less significant, far less important,   
>>> than Frost's ability to movingly portray complexly human ways of   
>>> living in the world.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike S.
>>>
>>
>> Most of the world prefers the poetry of Maya Angelou to that of  
>> either Cummings or Frost.
>>
>
> Manifestly untrue. Frost outsells verybody except Homer, Dante, and  
> Milton, and whoever happens to have a new book out or be in the  
> news.  Check the Amazon rankings from time to time.
>
> Mike S.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sat May 21 00:27:10 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 00:27:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <428EB51B.9020101@ix.netcom.com>
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>	<00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>	<6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com>	<011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>	<93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com>
	<428EB51B.9020101@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <428EB89E.7000800@ix.netcom.com>

Just upon reflection, the only two instances in book sales that I can 
recall where a poet loosely of Frost's generation and heritage outsold 
him was when the Book Club ed. of the Collected Millay was remaindered 
for $6.98 and when the Broadway Musical 'Cats' catapulted Eliot into the 
popular mind such as it is. The latter was an intellectual 
misunderstanding, but nevertheless I was able to get $8.00 for every 
dust jacketed Book Club edition I could get for the standard collected 
and a bit more trade copies. CP

Alphaville wrote:

> **<Manifestly untrue. Frost outsells verybody except Homer, Dante, 
> and  Milton, and whoever happens to have a new book out or be in the  
> news.  Check the Amazon rankings from time to time.>
>
> Manifestly true e.g  Frost's perpetually brisk sales. I can attest to 
> this as a long time bookseller. The 109th printing/ of the trade 
> edition/ (before the Book Club)/ on the copyright page/ of the 
> Collected/ doesn't even begin/ to tell the tale./ CP
>
> Michael Snider wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 20, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>>
>>>>> New subject matter, new lexicons, new points of view are   
>>>>> innovative, but they are not innovative TECHNICALLY.  They are   
>>>>> innovative in a way every reasonably accomplished poet is.  For   
>>>>> example, I use subject matter, a lexicon and a point of view in  
>>>>> my  poetry that no other poet does.  So did Pound, Cummings,  
>>>>> Williams  and the rest.  So do you, David, and so does Sam and, I  
>>>>> suspect,  just about every other poet posting to New-Poetry.  The  
>>>>> difference  between the trio of Cummings, Williams and Pound and  
>>>>> Frost is that  they ALSO were technically innovative; he was not.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is, I can name specific technical innovations the trio used   
>>>>> such as what I call the "syllabreak" of Cummings.  The  
>>>>> syllabreak  is not a way of using a standard device in a new way,  
>>>>> it is a new  device.  I've listed twelve such devices that  
>>>>> Cummings, in my view,  pioneered in the use of or originated.   
>>>>> Williams and Pound also  pioneered and originated certain new  
>>>>> techniques.  I do not believe  anyone can do the same for Frost.   
>>>>> This does not mean he was second- rate; it simply means he was  
>>>>> not a TECHNICAL innovator.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> I was speaking of technical innovation throughout but forgot to  
>>> make it explicit in the final sentence.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, Bob, it means that,  according to your idiosyncratic criteria,
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From any objective point of view, he was not technically innovative.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> he was not an innovator. Your blindness to anything but gizmos as  
>>>> innovation
>>>>
>>>
>>> Learn to read.  I think I may have said there are other ways to be  
>>> innovative besides the technical three or four hundred times-- 
>>> though perhaps only fifty times at New-Poetry.  That so many  
>>> stsguard refuse to take this in is quite revealing.
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>  And over and over again you say those other ways are unimportant.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> and, subsequently, to anything but your blinkered notion  of  
>>>> innovation as a measure of importance, is not a means of   
>>>> judgment  on anyone else for anyone else but you and perhaps your  
>>>> circle.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My circle is as against me as your circle is.  But you should note  
>>> that when I use the word "importance" in discussing poets, I first  
>>> define it (except when assuming the reader remembers my definition).
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, you define it. And I think your definition is simply wrong.  
>> James did offer another definition:  " The characterizations,  
>> narrative, dialog, etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they 
>> always  have." Here's my vrsion: poets are important insofar as they 
>> help us  understand how we and others live.
>>
>>
>>> No one, I note, ever suggests a better term, and I haven't had time  
>>> to think of one.  Nor does anyone in your circle try to refute the  
>>> points I make, the main one here being that Cummings, as one  
>>> example, was as innovative as Frost in all the ways Frost but was  
>>> ALSO technically innovative.  I would agree that Frost was better  
>>> in many respects than Cummings but not that he introduced more new  
>>> subject matter, more new locutions, more new angles on existence,  
>>> etc. And he introduced no significant new ways of making poetry.
>>>
>>> Why has no one listed any follower of his (whom you can show was  
>>> specifically a follower of his and not of Hardy or Tennyson or  
>>> Arnold or Pope or Shakespeare)?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Wilbur, Hecht, Nemerov, Hollander, Mezey, Justice, and nearly  
>> everyone else writing accentual-syllabic verse in the last half-century.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Most
>>>
>>>> of the world, and in this I'm with the world, sees Cumming's  
>>>> typographical tricks as far less significant, far less important,   
>>>> than Frost's ability to movingly portray complexly human ways of   
>>>> living in the world.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike S.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Most of the world prefers the poetry of Maya Angelou to that of  
>>> either Cummings or Frost.
>>>
>>
>> Manifestly untrue. Frost outsells verybody except Homer, Dante, and  
>> Milton, and whoever happens to have a new book out or be in the  
>> news.  Check the Amazon rankings from time to time.
>>
>> Mike S.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat May 21 06:17:04 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 06:17:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>	<00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>	<6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com>	<011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>	<93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com><428EB51B.9020101@ix.netcom.com>
	<428EB89E.7000800@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c55dee$3cf58490$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

And how is Tennyson, the nineteenth-century Frost in terms of popularity and 
innovativeness, doing? 




From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat May 21 07:47:54 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 05:47:54 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
In-Reply-To: <00d101c55d3e$3576a290$07042cd9@Robin>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
	<00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
	<001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
	<010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin>
	<01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin>
	<1116590365.1829.304.camel@malatesta>
	<00d101c55d3e$3576a290$07042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <1116676074.1829.325.camel@malatesta>

On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 14:17 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> > It seems to me that a speaker "created entirely through images" is not
> > often going to be able to speak to someone who doesn't inhabit the
> > poet's very imagination.  Maybe that's why I find Sexton so
> > excruciating?
> 
> Well, I'm talking very specifically about +Awful Rowing Towards God+ for the
> moment, which seems to me to work even if you don't inhabit Sexton's
> imaginative midset.  I'd see your comment above as more applicable to, say,
> Dylan Thomas.

Some Thomas is indeed excruciating, but he rose to gorgeous heights at
times that I just look at the chaff as...chaff.  I just haven't seen
Sexton ever rise to such heights of virtuosity.  You may be right, that
I've just read the wrong books, but I really do shudder at the thought
of trying out another.  Maybe I can pick a few poems from "Rowing", and
see.  Any specific ones you would recommend?

> > Plath is the best free-verse Poet I've read, and to me the difference in
> > craftsmanship and engagement between Plath and Sexton is a chasm.
> 
> Um.  I'm not sure just why I wouldn't characterise Plath as "free verse" (or
> even why not) -- I think perhaps because "free verse" is so catch-all
> finally, and what Plath is doing, for better or worse, is something more
> specific.

Well, considering what in my opinion is a gulf between Plath and a
handful of other practitioners of free verse, and the rest, I have
indeed wondered what I might be missing in their works that makes it
less free verse than I'd thought.  With Plath, the closest thing I've
found is a rough accentual form, but even that is pretty indifferent to
prosody (unlike, say, Pound's).

I tried to express a bit of why Plath seems to work for me here:

http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-04-28/Quotidie


> But perhaps Gregory would like to come in on this, over the
> Plath-and-free-verse issue?
> 
> Also, I disagree with your judgement, Uche.  what about Ezra Pound?
> Willy-nilly, the range of techniques Plath deployed in her poems was *much*
> narrower than those Pound used.  And used well.

I agree with that.  In the article I link above, I write:

"It does feel to me, reading her work, that she was nearing a
reconciliation of her expressive genius with the boundaries that she
mistakenly saw in form. I think that if she had lived to publish another
book's worth of work, she would have risen to the stature of Eliot and
Pound in that work. In the end, she limited herself too severely."

I might be overstating a bit there.  Plath did have a ways to go to
catch up with the likes of Pound, but I think the point remains that her
task would have indeed been to break out of the limitations you call
out.  I just think she was doing so remarkably well within those
limitations, that she had every chance of making an important leap if
she'd lived longer.


> > I've
> > never understood how people could compare Sexton to Plath (probably
> > because they were friends, and they both committed suicide: I suspect
> > the biographical parallels prompt people to an unfortunate critical
> > parallel).  If course, that's all just my taste.
> 
> Well, I've a friend who's just encountered Sexton for the first time, and
> part of her reaction was to think how much *better* than Plath Sexton was.
> So this could be argued both ways, and could be a hell of a complicated
> argument.

Right.  But it's worth pursuing, because we have to know what makes free
verse work for people, and we have to try to subtract from that
knowledge some of the effects of sensationalism, so we can advance the
cause of poetry qua poetry on all fronts.


> I think the link goes beyond the suicide business, beyond they were college
> room-mates, beyond the occasional overlap of imagery in Sexton's early work
> (which Joanna immediately noticed when she began reading Sexton) and has
> most to do with that they were the two most prominent members of the Second
> Generation American Confessional Poets.

It may be my bias, but I've always had trouble with lumping Plath on
subject matter with Confessional Poets.  It always seems to me more like
Plath Agonistes than Plath in Agony-hey-watch-this.


> Then stir Anne Stevenson into the mix, about exactly of an age with Plath
> and Sexton, biographer of Plath, written a sequence of poems about Plath,
> and (though the word wasn't around when she began writing) New Formalist to
> Plath and Sexton's free verse.

Oh?  New one on me.  I must read her.


> Plath and Stevenson looked back to Lowell, Anne Stevenson looked back to
> Elizabeth Bishop.

Hmm.  I always thought Bishop was one of the ones whose tedium drove
writers erroneously to free verse.


> I mean, if we're going to explore this, let's draw a full map of the
> territory at issue.  <g>

I'm game.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat May 21 07:53:12 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 05:53:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
In-Reply-To: <007101c55d79$0c81b420$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
	<00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
	<001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
	<010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin>
	<01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin><1116590365.1829.304.camel@malatesta>
	<00d101c55d3e$3576a290$07042cd9@Robin>
	<007101c55d79$0c81b420$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1116676392.1829.332.camel@malatesta>

On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 16:18 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote:
> I think I have no posts to this thread to answer but will just say, in 
> response to Uche's opinion that Plath is the best free verse poet he's read 
> that Robert W. Service is the best formalist I've read.

Oh dear.  I'm refusing to take that poisoned bait, but I do want to
clarify that I have trouble considering Eliot and Pound to be free verse
poets.  (Just an instinctual anomaly in my mental classifications).  Of
course Pound did write a good deal of what can only described as free
verse, and when he did, he was much better than Plath.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat May 21 07:59:23 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 05:59:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <012101c55d82$b2589a90$5cd63152@ANNY>
References: <102.61694d23.2fbf4355@aol.com>
	<00a401c55d7a$a47dd370$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<012101c55d82$b2589a90$5cd63152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1116676763.1829.336.camel@malatesta>

On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 23:27 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>  
> I know that I am not saying anything new, still I wish to say it. I
> can even accept rhyme (_apologies_) if and whenever there is a poetic
> glimpse that opens my way of seeing things.

What does this mean?  I'm sorry if I've missed earlier expansions of the
telegram.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat May 21 08:22:54 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 08:22:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin><1116590365.1829.304.camel@malatesta><00d101c55d3e$3576a290$07042cd9@Robin><007101c55d79$0c81b420$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1116676392.1829.332.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <003f01c55dff$d10dbfb0$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

There are dozens of poets better than Plath at free verse, like Stevens, 
Hughes, Williams, Roethke, Berryman, etc., not to mention more contemporary 
ones I doubt you know anything about like Robert Lax.

My point with Service was merely to hint that I suspect you know no more 
about those wsriting free verse than someone thinking Service was a great 
formal poet would be likely to know about formal verse.

But don't mind me.  I've been exceptionally crabby, even for me, lately.

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat May 21 08:26:25 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 14:26:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <102.61694d23.2fbf4355@aol.com><00a401c55d7a$a47dd370$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><012101c55d82$b2589a90$5cd63152@ANNY>
	<1116676763.1829.336.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <004f01c55e00$4e9892c0$04a83252@ANNY>

Ah don't worry Uche, long discussions on rhyme and free verse.

From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
&amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 1:59 PM


> On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 23:27 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>>  
>> I know that I am not saying anything new, still I wish to say it. I
>> can even accept rhyme (_apologies_) if and whenever there is a poetic
>> glimpse that opens my way of seeing things.
> 
> What does this mean?  I'm sorry if I've missed earlier expansions of the
> telegram.
> 
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat May 21 08:32:02 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 06:32:02 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
In-Reply-To: <BEB36737.12355%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEB36737.12355%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <1116678723.1829.368.camel@malatesta>

On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 10:06 -0500, David Graham wrote:
> Look how much has changed in four years, for instance.  Here's one from
> 1962:

Excellent.  Nothing like actual verse to clear away some of the drear
theory.

> The Truth the Dead Know

>    *For my Mother, born March 1902, died March 1959
>    and my Father, born February 1900, died June 1959*
> 
> 
> Gone, I say and walk from church,
> refusing the stiff procession to the grave,
> letting the dead ride alone in the hearse.
> It is June.  I am tired of being brave.

Promising start...

> We drive to the Cape.  I cultivate
> myself where the sun gutters from the sky,
> where the sea swings in like an iron gate
> and we touch.  In another country people die.

She's burst the bounds of the rhythm she started with in the first
stanza, and done so very clumsily.  Verily it makes me wonder whether
she had any ear at all to stick that comic extra foot into the last
line.  If her intent was irony, I think it failed.

> My darling, the wind falls in like stones
> from the whitehearted water and when we touch
> we enter touch entirely.  No one's alone.
> Men kill for this, or for as much.

Another extraordinarily weak final line.

> And what of the dead?  They lie without shoes
> in the stone boats.  They are more like stone
> than the sea would be if it stopped.  They refuse
> to be blessed, throat, eye and knucklebone.

I don't know whether it's the muddled "images" or the stalling prosody,
but this poem does seem to me to reveal an inability to handle the
simple discipline of form, and so perhaps it is better that she fled to
Free Verse.


> And from 1966:
> 
> Consorting With Angels
> 
> I was tired of being a woman,
> tired of the spoons and pots,
> tired of my mouth and my breasts,
> tired of the cosmetics and the silks.

My main problem with free verse is immediate.  Why is this verse?
Poetry is not mere rhetoric, and the rhetorical device here seems to be
intended for making one feel that she is saying something more profound
than she is.  Since she hardly maintains rhythm through these lines, why
are they any different from something a good number of educated women
have uttered at one time or another?

> There were men who sat at my table,
> circled around the bowl I offered up.
> The bowl was filled with purple grapes
> and the flies hovered in for the scent
> and even my father came with his white bone.
> But I was tired of the gender of things.

The rhythm to me is stalling and stilted here, which is OK, if that's
bringing my attention to something in the sense.  But I can't see what
it would be drawing my attention to.  And again, if this is all about
"images" (which I think is pretty weak as a foundation of poetry), why
do hers mean very little to me?  Is it because I'm not a woman?  Because
I was not born in America?  Am I missing some experiential reason for
why the images should not be considered a muddle?

> Last night I had a dream
> and I said to it...
> "You are the answer.
> You will outlive my husband and my father."
> In that dream there was a city made of chains
> where Joan was put to death in man's clothes
> and the nature of the angels went unexplained,

Not bad.  Good use of assonance, which saves the best free verse from
itself.

> no two made in the same species,

And then she stalls the cart again.  Should I not be reading this aloud
(which, to me, would further disqualify it from being poetry)?  Do
people really not hear the jarring that Sexton introduces in to random
lines, for no apparent reason?  Is there a reason I'm missing?

> one with a nose, one with an ear in its hand,
> one chewing a star and recording its orbit,
> each one like a poem obeying itself,
> performing God's functions,
> a people apart.

Again, the images seem muddled, and the music isn't compelling enough to
entice me to seek any subtle clarity I might have missed in the first
reading.  I can understand absurdity in the description of a dream, but
Sexton goes from absurdity of the dream's res to meaninglessness of the
tropes she uses to expand upon it.  Synaesthesia and conceit I can have
no problem with: it's not surrealism that bothers me here.  But good
surrealism communicates itself in a practical medium to the reader, and
it feels to me as if Sexton does not have the aptitude for such a medium
(again, it feels to me as if Plath does).

> "You are the answer,"
> I said, and entered,
> lying down on the gates of the city.
> Then the chains were fastened around me
> and I lost my common gender and my final aspect.
> Adam was on the left of me,
> Eve was on the right of me,
> both thoroughly inconsistent with the world of reason.
> We wove our arms together
> and rode under the sun.
> I was not a woman anymore,
> not one thing or the other.
> 
> O daughters of Jerusalem,
> the king has brought me to his chamber.
> I am black and I am beautiful.
> I've been opened and undressed.
> I have no arms or legs.
> I'm all one skin like a fish.
> I'm no more a woman
> than Christ was a man.

Nothing to say about these lines that I have not said about the earlier
ones.  I just don't get it.  Where is the attraction in these lines.

I'm sure Sexton fans will be quick to condemn my criticism, but consider
that I've put in an obvious effort here.  Please accompany your
condemnation with specific reasons why you do find these lines so
brilliant.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat May 21 08:54:24 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 06:54:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete / Visual / Sexton
In-Reply-To: <200505201611.j4KGBRZo001753@mail6.atl.registeredsite.com>
References: <200505201611.j4KGBRZo001753@mail6.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <1116680064.1829.389.camel@malatesta>

On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 12:11 -0400, editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com
wrote:
> The discussion over Sexton had me looking in my copy of her Complete 
> Poems.  And in there, in the foreword by Maxine Kumin, the subject of the 
> formal elements in Sexton?s poetry is addressed.  And it seems Sexton was 
> indeed concerned about the formal elements of her poetry.  There is also 
> consideration as to what accounted for her incredible popularity.  And it 
> seems it was not on account of any formal elements in her poems, or, rather, 
> it was on account of her subject matter (as everybody here, I think, realizes).  

That's what I think, but I wouldn't say that everyone here realizes
that, based on the other sub-thread on Sexton.

Good grief.  If my criteria for poetry were the poet's person and the
subject matter, I would have to despise most of the poetry of Milton,
Rimbaud, Pound, Eliot, just to name a few, and how impoverished I would
be.  If I want biographical intrigue, there's always People magazine.  I
prefer to judge a poet by the quality of their poetry.


> Kumin writes:  
> 
> ?Women poets in particular owe a debt to Anne Sexton, who broke new 
> ground, shattered taboos, and endured a barrage of attacks along the way 
> because of the flamboyance of her subject matter, which, twenty years later, 
> seems far less daring.  She wrote openly about menstruation, abortion, 
> masturbation, incest, adultery, and drug addiction at a time when the 
> proprieties embraced none of these as proper topics for poetry.?  

None of these are obscene materials for poetry.  I realize that times
were different back then, but my point is that it's not her subject
matter that puts me off.

Aside: I've had educated friends who are not poetry buffs rhapsodize
about Bukowski or Leonard Cohen because they wrote about real man
things, and not the foppish stuff most poetry is made of.  I read the
two and see how much craft and expressiveness C brings to the table,
versus B's unreadable screed.  It may be that my perceptions are skewed
by my critical bias, but it seems to me that the B fans throw him up as
a bit of a badge that they know something about poetry, and that the C
fans have really read and enjoyed a good deal of his stuff, and can chat
articulately about it.

> And finally, before I wear out my welcome, I?ll chime in on Sexton v. Plath.  
> Both Sexton and Plath have distinctive early works and later works.  Sexton 
> wrote more than Plath.  The Awful Rowing (1975) is later Sexton (her last 
> volume before her death?).  Both poets, when you get to their later works, 
> are by now in what would be complete control of their craft (albeit, who 
> knows about Plath -- and who knows, if she had lived, what her work 
> would have become?).

Are they?  I'm not so sure about that in either case.


> Plath had Ted Hughes to vie with (no small matter).  
> I think Hughes was an awesome poet, in complete control of the language.  
> Perfectly masculine, a force of nature.

Agreed.  And yet I find Plath more musical, and surer with her imagery
(again, I find imagery useless without good music).


> All Sexton had were her ills (I almost 
> said, her ?companionable ills?).  And while her ills were a force of nature 
> too, I think they eventually got the better of her:  
> 
> Why shouldn?t I pull down my pants
> and moon at the executioner
> as well as paste raisins on my breasts?
> Why shouldn?t I pull down my pants
> and show my little cunny to Tom
> and Albert?  They wee-wee funny.
> I wee-wee like a squaw.
> I have ink but no pen, still
> I dream that I can piss in God?s eye.
> I dream I?m a boy with a zipper.
> It?s so practical, la de dah. 
> 
> from HURRY UP PLEASE IT?S TIME
> by Anne Sexton

Thanks.  Good opening 5 lines, and then she unravels it with the
clumsily placed rhyme, and accompanying clumsy rhythm of line 6.  At
that point I think the piece has lost the compulsion, even though--and
this is a rare thing with Sexton--I can actually follow what it is she
is trying to say.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat May 21 09:06:53 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 07:06:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
In-Reply-To: <003f01c55dff$d10dbfb0$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
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	<003f01c55dff$d10dbfb0$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1116680813.1829.396.camel@malatesta>

On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 08:22 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote:
> There are dozens of poets better than Plath at free verse, like Stevens

close
 
> Hughes

close

> Williams

disagree

> Roethke

disagree

> Berryman

Berryman is beyond awful both in form and in free verse.  I mean,
really!


> etc., not to mention more contemporary 
> ones I doubt you know anything about like Robert Lax.
> 
> My point with Service was merely to hint that I suspect you know no more 
> about those wsriting free verse than someone thinking Service was a great 
> formal poet would be likely to know about formal verse.

Based on your list, I'd say you haven't shown this to be the case (The
only one I don't know of is Robert Lax.  I not only know but have read a
great deal of the others).

Then again it doesn't trouble me much what you think I don't know.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sat May 21 10:19:50 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:19:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Stevenson)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin><1116590365.1829.304.camel@malatesta><00d101c55d3e$3576a290$07042cd9@Robin>
	<1116676074.1829.325.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <006701c55e10$274e7cb0$ce8f9a51@Robin>

Out of sequence of the posts (I owe more than several replies) but simply because it's the easiest to deal with ...

Uche said, re Anne Stevenson:

> Oh?  New one on me.  I must read her.

        http://www.anne-stevenson.co.uk/

... seems to be her Web page for the official background.

(Oh god, just read for the first time the front of her official Web page which seems as bland as ninepence, but ...  The background to +Correspondences+, why she switched publishers from Oxford to Bloodaxe, why "A Legacy" never gets a mention -- bit of blood-on-the-tracks behind this that's been airbrushed.  But that's gossip -- bite her poems and see.)

Follows not her best poem, nor even perhaps characteristic, but it's my favourite.  Which made this for once an easy choice.  +Correspondences+ is in some ways the key text, but it's much too long (an entire book) to quote.

Robin

ANNE STEVENSON

The Fiction-Makers

 

We were the wrecked elect,

the ruined few. Youth, 

youth, the Cafe Iruna 

and the bullfight set, 

looped on Lepanto brandy but talking 'truth'? --

Hem, the 4 a.m. wisecrack, 

the hard way in,

that story we were all at the end of 

and couldn't begin? --

we thought we were living now, 

but we were living then. 

 

Sanctified Pound, a knot

of nerves in his fist, 

squeezing the Goddamn iamb 

out of our verse,

making it new in his 

archeological plot? --

to maintain 'the sublime'

in the factive? Couldn't be done. 

Something went wrong 

with 'new' in the Pisan pen.

He thought he was making now, 

but he was making then. 

 

Virginia, Vanessa,

a teapot, a Fitzroy fuss, 

'Semen?' asks Lytton, 

eyeing a smudge on a dress. 

How to educate England 

and keep a correct address

on the path to the river through 

Auschwitz? Belsen?

Auden and Isherwood 

stalking glad boys in Berlin --

they thought they were suffering now, 

but they were suffering then.

 

Out of pink-cheeked Cwmdonkin, 

Dylan with his Soho grin. 

Planted in the fiercest of flames, 

gold ash on a stem.

When Henry jumped out of his joke, 

Mr. Bones sat in.

Even you, with your breakable heart 

in your ruined skin,

those poems all written

that have to be you, dear friend, 

you guessed you were dying now, 

but you were dying then.

 

Here is a table with glasses, 

ribbed cages tipped back,

or turned on a hinge to each other 

to talk, to talk,

mouths that are drinking or smiling 

or quoting some book,

or laughing out laughter as candletongues 

lick at the dark? --

so bright in this fiction 

forever becoming its end, 

we think we are laughing now, 

but we are laughing then.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat May 21 11:41:39 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:41:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin><1116590365.1829.304.camel@malatesta><00d101c55d3e$3576a290$07042cd9@Robin><007101c55d79$0c81b420$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1116676392.1829.332.camel@malatesta><003f01c55dff$d10dbfb0$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1116680813.1829.396.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <005601c55e1b$94737650$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I mentioned only knownstream writers of free verse except for Lax because it 
seemed probable they'd be about the only ones whose work you were familiar 
with.  I also hesitated on naming others because I don't think of them as 
free verse poets since they push their verse so far beyond what poets like 
Plath did in their free verse.  Cummings, for instance.

But here are a few names I doubt you'll know all of whom I consider superior 
to Plath at free verse: John M. Bennett, Karl Kempton, Geof Huth, me, 
Jonathan Brannen, Guy Beining, Gregory St. Thomasino, Mike Basinski, Bill 
Keith, John Martone, Crag Hill, mIEKAL aND (as he spells his name), Sheila 
Murphy, Karl Young, John Byrum, LeRoy Gorman, jwcurry--to mention the visual 
poets whose names immediately jump to mind who have also written unvisual 
poetry and/or visual poems that do a lot of things you could call free verse 
maneuvers, and not mentioning the whole school of language poets whose names 
you may have heard of but whose poetry I strongly suspect you have dismissed 
without much investigation but who have taken free verse to places the 
others haven't.

I count the poets I've listed as almost certainly better at free verse than 
Plath was because she seemed to me not to have done any non-standard free 
verse, at all.  I mean, what did she do besides perhaps find good places to 
end lines at?  Having asked that, I wonder how one would evaluate a 
conoventional poet's use of free verse.  What can any such poet do with it 
once the poet goes beyond arbitrary line-breaks?  What I'm saying is that 
conventional free verse has just one tool, terminal lineation.  It's 
something you learn to do, after which you compose poems whose value depends 
on much more important things.

Complex subject I can't get into right now because I have to get ready for a 
trip I'll start Tuesday morning.  It includes finishing up a presentation on 
Cummings I'll be making.  To make a discussion of it more than one taste 
versus another's, we'd have to establish what can be done with free verse, 
then why X does that well, Y not.

--Bob G. 




From mandolin at mac.com  Sat May 21 12:20:51 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:20:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
In-Reply-To: <005601c55e1b$94737650$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
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Message-ID: <457463E4-C80C-4BEE-AE1D-0EF3EF432330@mac.com>


On May 21, 2005, at 11:41 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> I count the poets I've listed as almost certainly better at free  
> verse than Plath was because she seemed to me not to have done any  
> non-standard free verse, at all.


And that's the problem, Bob. By itself, it's a ridiculous criterium  
to use in judging the goodness of a poem or poet. In fact, any single  
criterium is probably ridiculous. You almost seem to understand this  
in the next few lines:


> I mean, what did she do besides perhaps find good places to end  
> lines at?  Having asked that, I wonder how one would evaluate a  
> conoventional poet's use of free verse.  What can any such poet do  
> with it once the poet goes beyond arbitrary line-breaks?  What I'm  
> saying is that conventional free verse has just one tool, terminal  
> lineation.  It's something you learn to do, after which you compose  
> poems whose value depends on much more important things.

But  I have no faith that your list of "much more important things"  
will be anything but technique. And "terminal lineation" is hardly  
the only tool of conventional free verse, though it is, perhaps, its  
most distinctive tool.


Mike S


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat May 21 12:28:59 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:28:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete / Visual / Sexton
References: <200505201611.j4KGBRZo001753@mail6.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <008901c55e22$31a6c840$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>  This is, in my
> opinion, why "visual poetry" no longer bears any (or slight) resemblance 
> to
> poetry, notwithstanding its employment of elements of language.

I'm too busy getting ready for a trip to chip in much more to this 
discussion right now but did want to say that while I am about the only 
other person involved with visual poetry in the US who believes with Gregory 
that poetry ought to have words in it to qualify as poetry, I would argue 
not that "'visual poetry' no longer bears any (or slight) resemblance to 
poetry," but that much 'visual poetry' no longer bears any (or slight) 
resemblance to
 poetry.  It does seem to be the case that, for serious workers in the 
field, "visual poetry" is a useless term since anything whatever can qualify 
as it.

SNIP

> http://xpressed.freezope.org/xstream/issue2/gfg.jpg
>
> In this poem I try to depict motion, and (depending on the size of your
> screen) this is seen in the air bubbles rising from "someone's" corpse at 
> the
> bottom of the sea.  You should see "the motion" as you scroll down the
> screen. . . .  It's been said about this poem (that anxiety of influence 
> thing)
> that I am picturing Bob Grumman dead, but that's not true (or else it 
> wasn't
> true at the time I wrote it).

I thought it was of Bob Grumman alive. . . .

--Bob G. 




From mandolin at mac.com  Sat May 21 12:29:43 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:29:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <014801c55da4$3f2bc520$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
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On May 20, 2005, at 9:27 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>> Here's my version: poets are important insofar as they help us   
>> understand how we and others live.
>>
>
> How nice.  Mine would be that they are important to the degree that  
> they increase the value of our lives by supplying us with beauty.
>

And I should have included that -- to delight AND instruct.



From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Sat May 21 12:39:10 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:39:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
Message-ID: <200505211639.j4LGdAXx030955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com>

9

The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Sexton / Plath

Bob (I think) said:  

You can't take the lessons of concrete poetry into standard poetry without 
making it visual poetry.  

And Robin said:  

Not your kind, but mine you can.  (See above, "First Men on Mercury".)  

Gregory says:  

Maybe we ought to leave the lessons of concrete poetry with concrete poetry 
and give concrete poetry the attention of the poet and the application of 
poetry.  Maybe then we will have something of a revival of concrete poetry, 
which in my opinion would be a welcome diversion from the norm -- and 
something for us to investigate and write about!  And it would give us a 
good excuse to dust off the ole manual typewriters.  Or, what the hell, we 
can do it with our computer word processors -- we?d still have to scan into 
jpegs. . . .  I suppose the typeface would be Courier New, although there are 
other options, like scanned typewriter. . . .  


As for visual poetry, I say let vis-po be vis-po.  Visual poetry is doing fine 
right now, and I would even venture to say it is enjoying something of an 
eruption.  Visual poetry is even enjoying its own vibrant offshoots.  If 
you?re into visual poetry, then I would think this would be an exciting time 
for you -- the internet and the ease with which vis-po can be published and 
visual poets can communicate are a boon for vis-po (and -- no small thing -- 
for mailart as well!).  Maybe someone will even invent a new (and more 
appropriate) name for visual poetry.  Maybe it?s the case that when visual 
poetry matures, that at the time of that maturity, that will also be the time 
when visual poetry finds and accepts its new name.  Maybe that name is 
already here.  Maybe that name is none other than ?vis-po.?  The 
abbreviation of ?poetry? into ?po? would be appropriate.  And in no way am 
I putting down vis-po -- I?ve done it 



http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/felice%20diaver.html



and I?ve published it and I will do it again.  (And I prefer to do it with 
scissors & paper (and with transparencies), not in, say, PaintShop -- I just 
prefer to handle the elements and feel them, prod them into place.  And I do 
admire those who can work masterfully well with the software programs, 
that?s just not me -- some things I like to touch when I?m creating them.)  
And yet, although I know I?m bringing something of what I?ve learned from 
poetry to the situation, I also know that in fact I?m thinking differently, that 
I?m using a whole other set of purposes and procedures.  


Robin, can you provide some links to your work (to your concrete poetry)?  



Uche said:  


?Good grief.  If my criteria for poetry were the poet's person and the
subject matter, I would have to despise most of the poetry of Milton,
Rimbaud, Pound, Eliot, just to name a few, and how impoverished I would
be.  If I want biographical intrigue, there's always People magazine.  I
prefer to judge a poet by the quality of their poetry.?  


Absolutely.  We all must, and I believe we do, in the final analysis do this.  


Uche:  


?None of these are obscene materials for poetry.  I realize that times
were different back then, but my point is that it's not her subject
matter that puts me off.?  


And also, here?s where Plath and Sexton part company:  I don?t think Plath 
would ever have used the sort of imagery, or, maybe I should say, the same 
sort of phraseology, as Sexton.  I mean specifically as for instance what we 
find in the excerpt I put up.  Nothing like this (as explicit as this) shows up 
in Ariel.  And I do not believe Plath would ever have resorted to it.  That?s 
just not Plath.  I believe Plath would have always shown restraint -- and in 
this lies her tension, this is the source of her tension.  


?Aside: I've had educated friends who are not poetry buffs rhapsodize
about Bukowski or Leonard Cohen because they wrote about real man
things, and not the foppish stuff most poetry is made of.  I read the
two and see how much craft and expressiveness C brings to the table,
versus B's unreadable screed.  It may be that my perceptions are skewed
by my critical bias, but it seems to me that the B fans throw him up as
a bit of a badge that they know something about poetry, and that the C
fans have really read and enjoyed a good deal of his stuff, and can chat
articulately about it.?  



?Agreed.  And yet I find Plath more musical, and surer with her imagery
(again, I find imagery useless without good music).?  


Cohen.  Didn?t Allen Ginsberg say of Jim Morrison something to the effect 
that his lyrics required the music to bring them to life?  Or just something to 
the effect that his lyrics needed the music to work?  Maybe that?s the case 
with Cohen.  Let Us Compare Mythologies isn?t bad.  But then it strikes me, 
isn?t his stuff dated?  (Gee I know he?s still writing.)  I suppose I prefer 
Cohen the song writer.  I like the sound of his guitar, especially on the early 
albums.  Later he started writing on a keyboard, and the overall sound of his 
albums, after Recent Songs, is a little over produced maybe, like with I?m 
Your Man and after.  Gee, you know what?  I really don?t think of Cohen as 
a poet!  And frankly, I outright dislike Bukowski.  

I realize you are talking about a different kind of ?music? in regard to Plath.  
I have listened to Plath recite for many hours.  (Interesting, it?s like with 
Cohen:  The more you listen to it the less depressing it is!  That?s a Cohen 
clich?.  I know.  I apologize.)  Now to my ear (while reading as well as 
listening), in the case of Plath, the imagery and the ideas string along pretty 
smoothly, it?s a well-paved road, there are not too many bumps in the road, 
and I suppose by ?bumps? I mean inopportune breaks.  This is all a matter 
of craft.  As is her diction (her choice of words, her vocabulary).  Plath had 
a fine ear, a New England ear.  And she had a fine sense for the sound of 
words, and for objects.  In no small way is this due to her New England 
accent.  And she had style, she had class (sorry).  She had a sense of herself 
as that voice in her poetry and she cultivated that sense.  

(You say, Uche, ?more musical, and surer with her imagery? than Hughes.)  
Now I think Hughes is very big.  And I think Plath?s poetry definitely 
benefited by the influences of Hughes (albeit it might have killed her).  But 
I?m not sure I can point to any aspects of Plath and say that here she did 
better than Hughes.  Certainly this may be a personal thing.  It?s what ?I? 
find.  I think Hughes saw in nature the force of nature, and he didn?t 
sentimentalize it.  I think Plath never reached that point, never got beyond 
herself to reach that point.  And that?s what I point to when I ask what 
would have become of her.  I do not think she would have become such as 
Sexton, I think maybe Plath would have increased in consciousness, maybe 
gotten well and like a diaphragm opened up and seen herself as, well, not 
just being done to by nature but as being a part of nature?s doing.  I think 
there is a role for the poet in this.  I think Hughes found it (albeit, he was not 
the type of man to flaunt this, not outside of the poetry).  



Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  

9




From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May 21 13:52:24 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:52:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Logan on Florida allure for poets
Message-ID: <212.14044ef.2fc0cf58@aol.com>

http://www.poems.com/essaloga.htm

This essay was mentioned on another list.

Here's an invitation to speak up for other
states (geographically speaking) that have
moved poets to compose.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat May 21 14:13:47 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 14:13:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net><00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu><001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin><010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin><01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin><1116590365.1829.304.camel@malatesta><00d101c55d3e$3576a290$07042cd9@Robin><007101c55d79$0c81b420$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1116676392.1829.332.camel@malatesta><003f01c55dff$d10dbfb0$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1116680813.1829.396.camel@malatesta><005601c55e1b$94737650$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<457463E4-C80C-4BEE-AE1D-0EF3EF432330@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00cd01c55e30$d543f910$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> But  I have no faith that your list of "much more important things"  
> will be anything but technique.

metaphor, which is subject-matter


>And "terminal lineation" is hardly  
> the only tool of conventional free verse, though it is, perhaps, its  
> most distinctive tool.

Like what?  I mean, it should be obvious, exclusively free-verse technique.
 
--BG



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat May 21 14:15:23 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 14:15:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu><00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com><011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com><014801c55da4$3f2bc520$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<2BB901AE-2D76-4FD6-A575-20A2547DAE26@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00d201c55e31$0ecfe040$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> And I should have included that -- to delight AND instruct.

I would say to delight and avoid instructing.

--Bob G.



From mandolin at mac.com  Sat May 21 14:35:21 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 14:35:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
In-Reply-To: <00cd01c55e30$d543f910$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <016c01c55a29$5da8f500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<ba9e927dd805a0516858469408ef9753@earthlink.net>
	<00c501c55a64$dd1816a0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005201c55a68$5d33ed70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00e401c55a6d$21674bc0$3fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005a01c55a93$ef1ee980$7ece3bcb@andrewbu>
	<001201c55ac7$d0b91770$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003601c55ae5$65274450$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<009d01c55b1f$6585d2b0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<02f101c55b29$43e4c4e0$44169c51@Robin>
	<010901c55b2f$89a6d5d0$9cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006b01c55b96$a04e8690$44169c51@Robin>
	<01ad01c55bff$6e97aff0$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<056a01c55c9a$a428e670$44169c51@Robin>
	<1116590365.1829.304.camel@malatesta>
	<00d101c55d3e$3576a290$07042cd9@Robin>
	<007101c55d79$0c81b420$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1116676392.1829.332.camel@malatesta>
	<003f01c55dff$d10dbfb0$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1116680813.1829.396.camel@malatesta>
	<005601c55e1b$94737650$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<457463E4-C80C-4BEE-AE1D-0EF3EF432330@mac.com> <00cd01c55e30$d54!
	3f910$! 4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <DB9FE309-BD3A-44A7-B8A0-6D56185D3044@mac.com>


On May 21, 2005, at 2:13 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>> But  I have no faith that your list of "much more important  
>> things"  will be anything but technique.
>>
>
> metaphor, which is subject-matter
>
>
>
>> And "terminal lineation" is hardly  the only tool of conventional  
>> free verse, though it is, perhaps, its  most distinctive tool.
>>
>
> Like what?  I mean, it should be obvious, exclusively free-verse  
> technique.


Christ, Bob, that's the problem! Not even "terminal lineation" is an  
exclusively free verse technique. What matters is not whether a poet  
invents some new technique, but how a poet uses ALL the tools  
available and appropriate  in a particular poem or in a body of  
work.  Some of those tools are technical, some involve sensibility  
and observation, some require logical thought, and there are  
undoubtedly other kinds of tools I haven't mentioned. In very general  
terms, the more tools a poet  is capable of deploying -- regardless  
of when those tools were first used or who first used them --  the  
better the poet. Some of those tools are more important than others,  
and some (think of langpo) may even be destructive, but none of them  
by themselves mean  a damned thing for  poetry.

Chaucer was hardly the first poet to use iambic pentameter in  
English, and it was used in other languages before anyone used it in  
English. But Chaucer made IP English --  and made English verse  
largely IP -- because of his skill with the meter, his acute powers  
of observation,  and the breadth of his sensibility and understanding.

Mike S.


From mandolin at mac.com  Sat May 21 14:40:01 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 14:40:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <00d201c55e31$0ecfe040$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com>
	<011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com>
	<014801c55da4$3f2bc520$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<2BB901AE-2D76-4FD6-A575-20A2547DAE26@mac.com>
	<00d201c55e31$0ecfe040$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <6628485E-4A2B-4800-89EF-301E81019AC0@mac.com>


On May 21, 2005, at 2:15 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>> And I should have included that -- to delight AND instruct.
>>
>
> I would say to delight and avoid instructing.


If you mean "avoid pointing obvious morals," then I would partially  
agree with you. But the greatest of literature teaches, even when it  
teaches contradictions.

Now I've got some real work to do, so have at it without me for a while.

Mike S.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat May 21 14:43:56 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 14:43:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
References: <00cd01c55e30$d54!3f910$! 4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<DB9FE309-BD3A-44A7-B8A0-6D56185D3044@mac.com>
Message-ID: <023901c55e35$0ba4e240$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>>> And "terminal lineation" is hardly  the only tool of conventional  free 
>>> verse, though it is, perhaps, its  most distinctive tool.
>>>
>>
>> Like what?  I mean, it should be obvious, exclusively free-verse 
>> technique.
>
>
> Christ, Bob, that's the problem! Not even "terminal lineation" is an 
> exclusively free verse technique.

I was pretty sure you'd say that but too lazy to define in advance.  Too 
lazy to really define here, either--and don't have time.  Free verse 
lineation is different from formal lineation, that's all I'll say right now.

--Bob G. 




From mandolin at mac.com  Sat May 21 15:06:47 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:06:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Resource (Sexton)
In-Reply-To: <023901c55e35$0ba4e240$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <DB9FE309-BD3A-44A7-B8A0-6D56185D3044@mac.com>
	<023901c55e35$0ba4e240$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <FE3F3F04-6F55-4640-9998-FE7FCFED199A@mac.com>


On May 21, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>>>> And "terminal lineation" is hardly  the only tool of  
>>>> conventional  free verse, though it is, perhaps, its  most  
>>>> distinctive tool.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Like what?  I mean, it should be obvious, exclusively free-verse  
>>> technique.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Christ, Bob, that's the problem! Not even "terminal lineation" is  
>> an exclusively free verse technique.
>>
>
> I was pretty sure you'd say that but too lazy to define in  
> advance.  Too lazy to really define here, either--and don't have  
> time.  Free verse lineation is different from formal lineation,  
> that's all I'll say right now.


One last and then I've really got to concentratre. Of course there's  
a difference. I dwelled on that difference at some length at my blog  
last December -- http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/2004/12/index.html

That's a link to a single page archiving the whole month. The  
relevant entries are Dec 5, 6, 7, and 11.



From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May 21 15:34:21 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:34:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
Message-ID: <b9.585a247c.2fc0e73d@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/21/2005 2:40:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes:

> And I should have included that -- to delight AND instruct.
> >>
> >
> >I would say to delight and avoid instructing.
> 
> 
> If you mean "avoid pointing obvious morals," then I would partially  
> agree with you. But the greatest of literature teaches, even when it  
> teaches contradictions.
> 
> Now I've got some real work to do, so have at it without me for a while.
> 
> 

Poets would profit or delight mankind,
And with the pleasing have th' instruction joined
--Horace, Ars Poetica

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From tad at opus40.org  Sat May 21 15:45:13 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:45:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu><00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com><011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com><014801c55da4$3f2bc520$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<2BB901AE-2D76-4FD6-A575-20A2547DAE26@mac.com>
Message-ID: <002401c55e3d$c30f1a10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I would say their primary importance is giving a good back rub.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument


>
> On May 20, 2005, at 9:27 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>>> Here's my version: poets are important insofar as they help us 
>>> understand how we and others live.
>>>
>>
>> How nice.  Mine would be that they are important to the degree that  they 
>> increase the value of our lives by supplying us with beauty.
>>
>
> And I should have included that -- to delight AND instruct.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From mandolin at mac.com  Sat May 21 16:24:08 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:24:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <002401c55e3d$c30f1a10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com>
	<011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com>
	<014801c55da4$3f2bc520$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<2BB901AE-2D76-4FD6-A575-20A2547DAE26@mac.com>
	<002401c55e3d$c30f1a10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <C12FA0A1-0630-4393-92CC-ABA8D929CE84@mac.com>

That's what my wife says, too.


On May 21, 2005, at 3:45 PM, The Old Mole wrote:

> I would say their primary importance is giving a good back rub.
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" <new- 
> poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
>
>
>
>>
>> On May 20, 2005, at 9:27 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Here's my version: poets are important insofar as they help us  
>>>> understand how we and others live.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> How nice.  Mine would be that they are important to the degree  
>>> that  they increase the value of our lives by supplying us with  
>>> beauty.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> And I should have included that -- to delight AND instruct.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From mbyrne at risd.edu  Sat May 21 16:31:13 2005
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:31:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete / Visual / Sexton
Message-ID: <s28f626f.089@risd.edu>

I believe Oyvind Fahlstrom was the first to use the term "Concrete Poetry," in his "Manifesto for Concrete Poetry," 1953.  As Mary Ellen Solt points out, the term was used by Augusto de Campos a couple of years later and adopted by the Noigandres group (Brazil) and Eugen Gomringer in 1956.  Solt notes that it is very unlikely that either de Campos or Gomringer were influenced by Fahlstrom as his manifesto was barely known.  The terms "Concrete Art" and "Concrete Painting"
were widely available and there were several exhibitions under those titles in Europe in the 1940s.  It makes sense, therefore, that Fahlstrom, de Campos, and Gomringer transferred the term from art to poetry independently.  I remember being struck by this phenomenon of almost simultaneous independent discovery in more than one case in the history of early concrete poetry but a common source in visual art accounts for it to some extent.

Brazilian Concrete Poetry of the 50s and 60s had plenty of semantic/social/political content, I think.  Actually, I think traditions of concrete/visual poetry in the 50s and 60s were often more concerned with political issues than mainstream poetry.  I'm thinking of Fluxus.

Also, much contemporary Visual Poetry is very definitely poetry, or presenting itself as poetry, or working within the economy of poetry.  I'm thinking of Brian Kim Stefans, John Cayley, and also of a recent visit I made to the Cave at Brown University to see work by students graduating from the electronic writing program there.  This year's and last year's Visual Poetry exhibition at Harvard included work by people known primarily as poets.   

An interesting discussion.  

Mairead

>>> editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com 05/20/05 12:11 PM >>>
9

Concrete / Visual / Sexton

Thank you, Robin.  And thank you for welcoming me to the list, I really do 
appreciate it.  

Of course I was listening (and lurking), and I'm sure (well, not entirely) 
there were and are others (who were listening, if not lurking).  And I'm sure 
they were, like myself, fascinated.  

You know in that essay that I quote from in my essay, the one by Rosmarie 
Waldrop, she gives good indication of where to locate concrete poetry.  But 
she doesn't say where the name "concrete" came from.  I think this is 
important if we are to locate the break in continuity (the very beginnings of 
that break) with poetry.  That there is a continuity between poetry and 
concrete poetry, I don't think anyone will object to -- after all, the carmen 
figuratum (the shape or "figure" poem, also called the "pattern" or, later, the 
"typewriter" poem) was always available to the poet, should he be so moved 
to express himself in that "form."  I think the term "concrete" came from, 
and was appropriated from, "concrete art."  The term "concrete art" was 
invented by Theo van Doesburg in 1930 to refer to abstract art that was 
based not in nature but in geometry and the formal properties of art itself.  
The underlying idea was that an artwork has value as an independent object, 
even if it doesn't illuminate social concerns or express an artist's emotions.  
This is, I think, what Waldrop is talking about.  My next point is that while 
we have to take into consideration concrete poetry's pedigree in poetry (a 
pedigree that I think "visual poetry" is forsaking, if not outright 
dispossessing itself of), given the above about the term "concrete," we also 
must acknowledge its other pedigree, which is found, I say, in concrete art.  

So there are two rather distinct pedigrees here vying for predominance.  On 
the one hand we have poetry, and on the other, art.  I think if we are to locate 
a break in the continuity between concrete poetry and visual poetry, we 
might do very well to look here, and we will see, I think, that art has taken 
predominance.  What remains of poetry is the use of elements of language 
(letters, words, text -- we can already see in the concrete poetry of the fifties 
and sixties the use of elements of language for graphic rather than poetic or 
semantic purposes), but, as I just said, not for poetic or semantic purposes, 
but for graphic or pictorial or, even, symbolic purposes.  This is, in my 
opinion, why "visual poetry" no longer bears any (or slight) resemblance to 
poetry, notwithstanding its employment of elements of language.  

When you mentioned "strict typographical and enhanced typographical," I 
felt you were very close to seeing what, in my judgment, anyway, is the case 
-- so I felt I had to chime in with my opinion.  The "enhanced typographical" 
elements are one station on the way to what "visual poetry" is today. . . .  

By the way, here is the url to a concrete poem I wrote.  Maybe take a look?  

http://xpressed.freezope.org/xstream/issue2/gfg.jpg

In this poem I try to depict motion, and (depending on the size of your 
screen) this is seen in the air bubbles rising from "someone's" corpse at the 
bottom of the sea.  You should see "the motion" as you scroll down the 
screen. . . .  It's been said about this poem (that anxiety of influence thing) 
that I am picturing Bob Grumman dead, but that's not true (or else it wasn't 
true at the time I wrote it).  If you're looking at this on a cinema screen (as I 
am) try reducing the size of the screen.  (I wrote it for a small laptop-size 
screen.)  

The discussion over Sexton had me looking in my copy of her Complete 
Poems.  And in there, in the foreword by Maxine Kumin, the subject of the 
formal elements in Sexton's poetry is addressed.  And it seems Sexton was 
indeed concerned about the formal elements of her poetry.  There is also 
consideration as to what accounted for her incredible popularity.  And it 
seems it was not on account of any formal elements in her poems, or, rather, 
it was on account of her subject matter (as everybody here, I think, realizes).  
Kumin writes:  

"Women poets in particular owe a debt to Anne Sexton, who broke new 
ground, shattered taboos, and endured a barrage of attacks along the way 
because of the flamboyance of her subject matter, which, twenty years later, 
seems far less daring.  She wrote openly about menstruation, abortion, 
masturbation, incest, adultery, and drug addiction at a time when the 
proprieties embraced none of these as proper topics for poetry."  

And finally, before I wear out my welcome, I'll chime in on Sexton v. Plath.  
Both Sexton and Plath have distinctive early works and later works.  Sexton 
wrote more than Plath.  The Awful Rowing (1975) is later Sexton (her last 
volume before her death?).  Both poets, when you get to their later works, 
are by now in what would be complete control of their craft (albeit, who 
knows about Plath -- and who knows, if she had lived, what her work 
would have become?).  Plath had Ted Hughes to vie with (no small matter).  
I think Hughes was an awesome poet, in complete control of the language.  
Perfectly masculine, a force of nature.  All Sexton had were her ills (I almost 
said, her "companionable ills").  And while her ills were a force of nature 
too, I think they eventually got the better of her:  

Why shouldn't I pull down my pants
and moon at the executioner
as well as paste raisins on my breasts?
Why shouldn't I pull down my pants
and show my little cunny to Tom
and Albert?  They wee-wee funny.
I wee-wee like a squaw.
I have ink but no pen, still
I dream that I can piss in God's eye.
I dream I'm a boy with a zipper.
It's so practical, la de dah. 

from HURRY UP PLEASE IT'S TIME
by Anne Sexton




Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino

9


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat May 21 16:43:30 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:43:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Logan on Florida allure for poets
Message-ID: <1c7.29086e67.2fc0f772@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/21/2005 12:52:50 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> Here's an invitation to speak up for other
> states (geographically speaking) that have
> moved poets to compose.
> Finnegan
Texas has moved me to decompose, if that's any help.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat May 21 18:02:08 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 00:02:08 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete / Visual / Sexton
References: <s28f626f.089@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <003501c55e50$bc0d4cb0$e1e83652@ANNY>

I think Mair?ad is right, here are the representatives of concrete poetry -Brazilian and European: Augusto and Aroldo de Campos, Pignatari, Gomringen, Sandri. 

>From this link that resumes the exhibit Art-Word held in Bolzano some time ago, I translated the following. 

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:GBnHCa-5HjIJ:www.vektor.at/download/ArtWord_ital.rtf+poesia+concreta+collezione+della+grazia&hl=en&start=4

 

 

The two brothers De Campos (Augusto and Aroldo) with Decio Pignatari (Brazil), Eugen Gomringer (Switzerland), Gerhard Gerhard R?hm and Friedrich Achleitner (Austria), Franz Mohn (Germany) and others started working with the visual aspect of words, their sound and meaning at the beginning of the '50s.

 

One of the first poetry collections is meaningfully titled "Konstellationen" (Constellations): words, deprived from their syntactic context, are recombined into a visual composition. Instead of a sentence there is a surface on which words or letters freely move. Works were born that can be set between art and poetry. These hints are soon gathered in Austria (among others Heinz Gappmayr),  Italy (Ugo Carrega, Arrigo Lora-Totino) and Japan (Nikuni, Takahashi).

 

>From an historical point of view Concrete Poetry goes back to the "words in freedom" by the Futurists of the '20s. They themselves were inspired by Mallarm? and his "Un Coup de d?s" [A roll of the dice] (1898). 



http://www.press.jhu.edu/books/hopkins_guide_to_literary_theory/stephane_mallarme_and_french_symbolism.html



While Futurists are still interested in strengthening expressivity, the representatives of Concrete Poetry aim to the creation of finally abstract linguistic structures. They do not want to reach "poetic" feelings. Their texts should be similar to objects to be used or looked at. The few words used should be able to make the artwork comprehensible in the entire world, as street signs. 

 

Visual poetry: The borders between Concrete poetry and visual poetry are little defined. 

...

___________________
I also just officially translated (will revise tomorrow) the following press release for Museion, I think they should be happy if I advertise it :

11.08.2005-02.17.2006

The exhibition follows an historical course focused on the book starting with the experience of the symbolists (Mallarm?, Apollinaire) and the futurists (Marinetti, Depero, Carr?.) to reach the concrete and visual movements of the second half of the XXth century (Gomringer, De Campos, Villa, Williams, Caruso .) to invite us to understand the transformation of the page from the simple support of a text to an organic artistic project.

The exhibit will pivot on the bolted-Depero and the litho-cans by Tullio d'Albosola. Besides showing the beauty of futuristic compositions, these artwoks will be used to document the importance of futurism in the history of the book of the XXth century by underlining how the futurists' tradition of the "parolibere" (freewords) texts influences the birth of an artbook and the "verbovisuali" (wordvisual) investigations of the second half of the XXth century.

All artwork exhibited comes from the Archivio di Nuova Scrittura (Archive of New Writing), Della Grazia Collection. At the moment the books are to be found at the MART in Rovereto, while the works of art are at the Museion of Bolzano.

 

 ___________________

p.s.: The curator of the Della Grazia Collection was Ugo Carrega. And at this point everything makes sense. A businessman (Della Grazia) calls one of the most brilliant artists to be the curator of his future collection.  


You should wish to know more I might be able to answer some questions, like walk to the library of Museion or see around.


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.



From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 10:31 PM



>I believe Oyvind Fahlstrom was the first to use the term "Concrete Poetry," in his "Manifesto for Concrete Poetry," 1953.  As Mary Ellen Solt points out, the term was used by Augusto de Campos a couple of years later and adopted by the Noigandres group (Brazil) and Eugen Gomringer in 1956.  Solt notes that it is very unlikely that either de Campos or Gomringer were influenced by Fahlstrom as his manifesto was barely known.  The terms "Concrete Art" and "Concrete Painting"
> were widely available and there were several exhibitions under those titles in Europe in the 1940s.  It makes sense, therefore, that Fahlstrom, de Campos, and Gomringer transferred the term from art to poetry independently.  I remember being struck by this phenomenon of almost simultaneous independent discovery in more than one case in the history of early concrete poetry but a common source in visual art accounts for it to some extent.
> 
> Brazilian Concrete Poetry of the 50s and 60s had plenty of semantic/social/political content, I think.  Actually, I think traditions of concrete/visual poetry in the 50s and 60s were often more concerned with political issues than mainstream poetry.  I'm thinking of Fluxus.
> 
> Also, much contemporary Visual Poetry is very definitely poetry, or presenting itself as poetry, or working within the economy of poetry.  I'm thinking of Brian Kim Stefans, John Cayley, and also of a recent visit I made to the Cave at Brown University to see work by students graduating from the electronic writing program there.  This year's and last year's Visual Poetry exhibition at Harvard included work by people known primarily as poets.   
> 
> An interesting discussion.  
> 
> Mairead
> 
>>>> editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com 05/20/05 12:11 PM >>>
> 9
> 
> Concrete / Visual / Sexton
> 
> Thank you, Robin.  And thank you for welcoming me to the list, I really do 
> appreciate it.  
> 
> Of course I was listening (and lurking), and I'm sure (well, not entirely) 
> there were and are others (who were listening, if not lurking).  And I'm sure 
> they were, like myself, fascinated.  
> 
> You know in that essay that I quote from in my essay, the one by Rosmarie 
> Waldrop, she gives good indication of where to locate concrete poetry.  But 
> she doesn't say where the name "concrete" came from.  I think this is 
> important if we are to locate the break in continuity (the very beginnings of 
> that break) with poetry.  That there is a continuity between poetry and 
> concrete poetry, I don't think anyone will object to -- after all, the carmen 
> figuratum (the shape or "figure" poem, also called the "pattern" or, later, the 
> "typewriter" poem) was always available to the poet, should he be so moved 
> to express himself in that "form."  I think the term "concrete" came from, 
> and was appropriated from, "concrete art."  The term "concrete art" was 
> invented by Theo van Doesburg in 1930 to refer to abstract art that was 
> based not in nature but in geometry and the formal properties of art itself.  
> The underlying idea was that an artwork has value as an independent object, 
> even if it doesn't illuminate social concerns or express an artist's emotions.  
> This is, I think, what Waldrop is talking about.  My next point is that while 
> we have to take into consideration concrete poetry's pedigree in poetry (a 
> pedigree that I think "visual poetry" is forsaking, if not outright 
> dispossessing itself of), given the above about the term "concrete," we also 
> must acknowledge its other pedigree, which is found, I say, in concrete art.  
> 
> So there are two rather distinct pedigrees here vying for predominance.  On 
> the one hand we have poetry, and on the other, art.  I think if we are to locate 
> a break in the continuity between concrete poetry and visual poetry, we 
> might do very well to look here, and we will see, I think, that art has taken 
> predominance.  What remains of poetry is the use of elements of language 
> (letters, words, text -- we can already see in the concrete poetry of the fifties 
> and sixties the use of elements of language for graphic rather than poetic or 
> semantic purposes), but, as I just said, not for poetic or semantic purposes, 
> but for graphic or pictorial or, even, symbolic purposes.  This is, in my 
> opinion, why "visual poetry" no longer bears any (or slight) resemblance to 
> poetry, notwithstanding its employment of elements of language.  
> 
> When you mentioned "strict typographical and enhanced typographical," I 
> felt you were very close to seeing what, in my judgment, anyway, is the case 
> -- so I felt I had to chime in with my opinion.  The "enhanced typographical" 
> elements are one station on the way to what "visual poetry" is today. . . .  
> 
> By the way, here is the url to a concrete poem I wrote.  Maybe take a look?  
> 
> http://xpressed.freezope.org/xstream/issue2/gfg.jpg
> 
> In this poem I try to depict motion, and (depending on the size of your 
> screen) this is seen in the air bubbles rising from "someone's" corpse at the 
> bottom of the sea.  You should see "the motion" as you scroll down the 
> screen. . . .  It's been said about this poem (that anxiety of influence thing) 
> that I am picturing Bob Grumman dead, but that's not true (or else it wasn't 
> true at the time I wrote it).  If you're looking at this on a cinema screen (as I 
> am) try reducing the size of the screen.  (I wrote it for a small laptop-size 
> screen.)  
> 
> The discussion over Sexton had me looking in my copy of her Complete 
> Poems.  And in there, in the foreword by Maxine Kumin, the subject of the 
> formal elements in Sexton's poetry is addressed.  And it seems Sexton was 
> indeed concerned about the formal elements of her poetry.  There is also 
> consideration as to what accounted for her incredible popularity.  And it 
> seems it was not on account of any formal elements in her poems, or, rather, 
> it was on account of her subject matter (as everybody here, I think, realizes).  
> Kumin writes:  
> 
> "Women poets in particular owe a debt to Anne Sexton, who broke new 
> ground, shattered taboos, and endured a barrage of attacks along the way 
> because of the flamboyance of her subject matter, which, twenty years later, 
> seems far less daring.  She wrote openly about menstruation, abortion, 
> masturbation, incest, adultery, and drug addiction at a time when the 
> proprieties embraced none of these as proper topics for poetry."  
> 
> And finally, before I wear out my welcome, I'll chime in on Sexton v. Plath.  
> Both Sexton and Plath have distinctive early works and later works.  Sexton 
> wrote more than Plath.  The Awful Rowing (1975) is later Sexton (her last 
> volume before her death?).  Both poets, when you get to their later works, 
> are by now in what would be complete control of their craft (albeit, who 
> knows about Plath -- and who knows, if she had lived, what her work 
> would have become?).  Plath had Ted Hughes to vie with (no small matter).  
> I think Hughes was an awesome poet, in complete control of the language.  
> Perfectly masculine, a force of nature.  All Sexton had were her ills (I almost 
> said, her "companionable ills").  And while her ills were a force of nature 
> too, I think they eventually got the better of her:  
> 
> Why shouldn't I pull down my pants
> and moon at the executioner
> as well as paste raisins on my breasts?
> Why shouldn't I pull down my pants
> and show my little cunny to Tom
> and Albert?  They wee-wee funny.
> I wee-wee like a squaw.
> I have ink but no pen, still
> I dream that I can piss in God's eye.
> I dream I'm a boy with a zipper.
> It's so practical, la de dah. 
> 
> from HURRY UP PLEASE IT'S TIME
> by Anne Sexton
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
> 
> 9
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May 21 18:10:00 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:10:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
Message-ID: <1f3.a357140.2fc10bb8@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/21/2005 8:32:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
uche at ogbuji.net writes:

> >Consorting With Angels
> >
> >I was tired of being a woman,
> >tired of the spoons and pots,
> >tired of my mouth and my breasts,
> >tired of the cosmetics and the silks.
> 
> My main problem with free verse is immediate.  Why is this verse?
> Poetry is not mere rhetoric, and the rhetorical device here seems to be
> intended for making one feel that she is saying something more profound
> than she is.  Since she hardly maintains rhythm through these lines, why
> are they any different from something a good number of educated women
> have uttered at one time or another?
> 
Uche,
This is that old poetic technique 
called anaphora (which free verse 
poets use often).
Finnegan
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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Sat May 21 19:40:19 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 19:40:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <002401c55e3d$c30f1a10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com>
	<011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com>
	<014801c55da4$3f2bc520$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<2BB901AE-2D76-4FD6-A575-20A2547DAE26@mac.com>
	<002401c55e3d$c30f1a10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <33abf27505052116406f3f3a08@mail.gmail.com>

Hell, I can do that. I'm told they're absolutely wonderful. Does that
make me a great poet?

Everyone's arguing for or against Frost as an important poet at the
moment... Yeats was mentioned very briefly by someone else to rival
Frost. How did Yeats get dropped from the argument so quickly?

Since I'm hardly able to sustain a critical argument, I'll quote
Amazon sale numbers and ask the questions. Yeats was a master at both
delighting and instructing. (I leave the technical argument to those
better suited.) In fact, a brief sojourn through his collected works
would run the gamut through a dozen emotions, all exemplifying the
human condition. And if Amazon numbers are any indication at all, it's
obvious Yeats still speaks to the modern reader, much more so than
Frost:

Yeats: #15,727
Frost:  #38,321

Will no one champion Yeats?


-------------------------------------------------
"No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake



On 5/21/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
> I would say their primary importance is giving a good back rub.
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
> 
> 
> >
> > On May 20, 2005, at 9:27 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >
> >>> Here's my version: poets are important insofar as they help us
> >>> understand how we and others live.
> >>>
> >>
> >> How nice.  Mine would be that they are important to the degree that  they
> >> increase the value of our lives by supplying us with beauty.
> >>
> >
> > And I should have included that -- to delight AND instruct.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat May 21 20:38:53 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 20:38:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu><00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com><011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com><014801c55da4$3f2bc520$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><2BB901AE-2D76-4FD6-A575-20A2547DAE26@mac.com><002401c55e3d$c30f1a10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<33abf27505052116406f3f3a08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02cd01c55e66$be1d8d10$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Everyone's arguing for or against Frost as an important poet at the
> moment... Yeats was mentioned very briefly by someone else to rival
> Frost. How did Yeats get dropped from the argument so quickly?

The argument quickly became Frost the formalist versus, to simplify, 
non-formalist poets (actually, poets most people would consider more 
innovative than Frost).  I myself put Yeats second to Stevens on my personal 
list of best poets in English who flourished fifty or more years ago.  Frost 
is sixth.  In between are Cummings, Roethke and Pound.  Thomas, Eliot, 
Jeffers and Williams would be the last of my top ten.  I consider my top 
four almost equal, then a gap to the next four followed by a gap to Jeffers 
and Williams.  With Hart Crane and Louis Zukofsky the only ones of the time 
I feel may deserve to be in my top ten, though definitely not in my top 
eight.

--Bob G. 




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sun May 22 00:07:26 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 00:07:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Grab some Glory before its too late! Enlist Today!
In-Reply-To: <02cd01c55e66$be1d8d10$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu><00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com><011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com><014801c55da4$3f2bc520$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><2BB901AE-2D76-4FD6-A575-20A2547DAE26@mac.com><002401c55e3d$c30f1a10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>	<33abf27505052116406f3f3a08@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cd01c55e66$be1d8d10$4bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4290057E.7000905@ix.netcom.com>

Drug Dogs Trained To Detect Talcum Powder Snag Baby Crooks:
Immigration Holding 46 Infants Incognito At Gitmo Under Homeland 
Security Guidelines:
Patriot Act Says 'Talcum Toddlers' Can Be Executed Without Trial

By CHIMP ARPIE
The Assassinated Press
May 20, 2005
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/

>


From uche at ogbuji.net  Sun May 22 09:28:55 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 07:28:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
In-Reply-To: <1f3.a357140.2fc10bb8@aol.com>
References: <1f3.a357140.2fc10bb8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1116768535.1829.405.camel@malatesta>

On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 18:10 -0400, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/21/2005 8:32:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> uche at ogbuji.net writes:
> 
> > >Consorting With Angels
> > >
> > >I was tired of being a woman,
> > >tired of the spoons and pots,
> > >tired of my mouth and my breasts,
> > >tired of the cosmetics and the silks.
> > 
> > My main problem with free verse is immediate.  Why is this verse?
> > Poetry is not mere rhetoric, and the rhetorical device here seems to
> > be
> > intended for making one feel that she is saying something more
> > profound
> > than she is.  Since she hardly maintains rhythm through these lines,
> > why
> > are they any different from something a good number of educated
> > women
> > have uttered at one time or another?
> 
> Uche,
> This is that old poetic technique 
> called anaphora (which free verse 
> poets use often).

Actually, I know my prosody *and* rhetoric devices very well, so I know
what it's called.  My point is that it's strictly a rhetorical device
(Hey, I even said so!), and not a poetical one.  Poetry often uses
rhetorical devices, but they do not alone support the ars poetica,
otherwise every particularly skillful speech would be a poem.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sun May 22 10:03:39 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:03:39 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
References: <200505211639.j4LGdAXx030955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <008d01c55ed7$0ee25260$09042cd9@Robin>

Gregory:

> As for visual poetry, I say let vis-po be vis-po.  Visual poetry is doing
fine
> right now, and I would even venture to say it is enjoying something of an
> eruption.  Visual poetry is even enjoying its own vibrant offshoots.  If
> you're into visual poetry, then I would think this would be an exciting
time
> for you -- the internet and the ease with which vis-po can be published
and
> visual poets can communicate are a boon for vis-po (and -- no small
thing -- 
> for mailart as well!).  Maybe someone will even invent a new (and more
> appropriate) name for visual poetry.

How about "semantically enhanced plastic art"?  <g>

That's not intended as a pedantic and long-winded reformulation.  Well, not
entirely.  And I think your point about adopting the term "vis-po" is a good
one.

Mairead's point in a recent post that "This year's and last year's Visual
Poetry exhibition at Harvard included work by people known primarily as
poets," suggests to me that Visual Poetry is a locus for a flow from two
directions -- from the one side, poets increasing the visual element in
their work, on the other formally art-college trained painters including
words, and the two meeting somewhere in the middle.

So there are two separate issues -- What is the imaginative status of the
object?  and What do we call it?

I have no problems whatsoever with the first -- I really enjoy and admire
the examples of Bob Grumman's work that he has on his site.  But I'd (like
you, Gregory?) see this as painting, not poetry.

... if we take poetry as the enhancement, enrichment, formalisation and
exploitation of *speech*.

{OK, that shows my own bias in this area.}

(Incidentally, the semantic element in painting is a big part of some of the
work of the current BritArt painters, was pervasive in the dada/surrealist
movements, and can even be found in the Renaissance -- those In Arcadia Ego
paintings which include the words, "In Arcadia Ego" clearly pictured on the
base of a statue, to take a (non)trivial example.  So this isn't exactly
new.)

But to carry this back to concrete poetry ... I was about to say, "As I'm
sure we'd all agree," but them's contentious words.  So ...

My own sense would be that there *is* such a thing as +specifically+
concrete poetry, differing from both (even) the freest of free verse on the
one hand and painting on the other.

But that there is a fissure built into the very nature of the genre that
causes it to rise, flourish for a time, and then vanish, to re-arise later
under the same or a different name.

Concrete poetry is like a tiny statelet ground between the two vast empires
of Painting and Poetry, and eventually -- inevitably -- it splits, half the
citizens emigrating to the one vast empire, the other half to the other.

Finally, there simply isn't *enough* you can do if you stick within the
formal constraints of concrete poetry -- it is, (to me) a limited and
limiting form.

So the writers of it emigrate, feed the lessons of concrete poetry back into
line poetry or painting, and look back wistfully on their frantic youth.

I'd be happy to be contradicted here if someone can give me the example of a
concrete poet who simply stuck to it per se.  And continued to develop in
their work.

Robin














From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu  Sun May 22 10:28:20 2005
From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 09:28:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
In-Reply-To: <000f01c55da1$4a1316d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net>

At 06:23 PM 5/20/2005 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
>Klaatu barada nicto.

...in reply to Finnegan, who wrote

  Now that Star Wars is again splashing
>all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
>that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
>of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
>etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.

...which led me first to the fanciful thought that someone
ought to write a blues or lament for great robots:
Gort, Robbie, Marvin...

...which led to a more "serious" question: Has anyone
written any poetry (worth re-reading) about science-fiction
issues, e.g., about alien contact, or about what one
might experience in orbit or in space? I can think
of at least a few novels that are not "merely" in the
science fiction genre, e.g., Golding's _The Inheritors_
and Chinghiz Aitmatov's _The Day Lasts More Than
a Hundred Years_, but I am ignorant about any
comparable works of poetry (although "You, Andrew
Marvell" was eerily prescient about an earth-orbit
perspective).

Any suggestions?

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sun May 22 10:37:30 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:37:30 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net>
Message-ID: <009901c55edb$c9090ef0$09042cd9@Robin>

From: "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu>

> ...which led to a more "serious" question: Has anyone
> written any poetry (worth re-reading) about science-fiction
> issues, e.g., about alien contact, or about what one
> might experience in orbit or in space?

Both my examples are Scots (sorry) -- Edwin Morgan and D.M.Black.

Specific titles on request.

I think D.M.Thomas (English)  did some, but the ones of his I've come on are
crap, versification of existing SF stories.  *Not* worth reading, let alone
rereading.

There was an anthology published here, edited by Edward Lucie-Smith, called
+Holding My Eight Hands+, but I don't have it to hand.

Robin Hamilton




From Thom424 at aol.com  Sun May 22 10:42:40 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 10:42:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science Fiction Poetry?
Message-ID: <154.51a224c7.2fc1f460@aol.com>

every so often i get a flyer from an organization called the science fiction 
poetry association. i think it has a website at <www.sfpoetry.com>.   seems 
like a whole subculture/genre out there. probably as many folks writing scifi-po 
as there are writing lang-po!   who knows?

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From mandolin at mac.com  Sun May 22 10:49:34 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 10:49:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net>
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net>
Message-ID: <C59C5117-FE74-4760-B453-736B53B9D7DA@mac.com>


On May 22, 2005, at 10:28 AM, Richard Wilsnack wrote:

> At 06:23 PM 5/20/2005 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
>
>> Klaatu barada nicto.
>>
>
> ...in reply to Finnegan, who wrote
>
>  Now that Star Wars is again splashing
>
>> all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
>> that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
>> of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
>> etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
>>
>
> ...which led me first to the fanciful thought that someone
> ought to write a blues or lament for great robots:
> Gort, Robbie, Marvin...
>
> ...which led to a more "serious" question: Has anyone
> written any poetry (worth re-reading) about science-fiction
> issues, e.g., about alien contact, or about what one
> might experience in orbit or in space? I can think
> of at least a few novels that are not "merely" in the
> science fiction genre, e.g., Golding's _The Inheritors_
> and Chinghiz Aitmatov's _The Day Lasts More Than
> a Hundred Years_, but I am ignorant about any
> comparable works of poetry (although "You, Andrew
> Marvell" was eerily prescient about an earth-orbit
> perspective).
>
> Any suggestions?


Fred Turner's sf epics The New World (future history of a fragmented  
US)  and Genesis (terraforming of Mars). I read the first years ago  
and liked it then. Never been able to get past the beginning of the  
second, but it might be a personal problem.



From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun May 22 11:05:50 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:05:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
References: <1f3.a357140.2fc10bb8@aol.com>
	<1116768535.1829.405.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <007a01c55edf$bea3f020$1d0c9942@Helen>

Perhaps we should ask the reverse - why isn't it verse?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sextons


> On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 18:10 -0400, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>> In a message dated 5/21/2005 8:32:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>> uche at ogbuji.net writes:
>>
>> > >Consorting With Angels
>> > >
>> > >I was tired of being a woman,
>> > >tired of the spoons and pots,
>> > >tired of my mouth and my breasts,
>> > >tired of the cosmetics and the silks.
>> >
>> > My main problem with free verse is immediate.  Why is this verse?
>> > Poetry is not mere rhetoric, and the rhetorical device here seems to
>> > be
>> > intended for making one feel that she is saying something more
>> > profound
>> > than she is.  Since she hardly maintains rhythm through these lines,
>> > why
>> > are they any different from something a good number of educated
>> > women
>> > have uttered at one time or another?
>>
>> Uche,
>> This is that old poetic technique
>> called anaphora (which free verse
>> poets use often).
>
> Actually, I know my prosody *and* rhetoric devices very well, so I know
> what it's called.  My point is that it's strictly a rhetorical device
> (Hey, I even said so!), and not a poetical one.  Poetry often uses
> rhetorical devices, but they do not alone support the ars poetica,
> otherwise every particularly skillful speech would be a poem.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May 22 11:49:48 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:49:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
References: <200505211639.j4LGdAXx030955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com>
	<008d01c55ed7$0ee25260$09042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <006b01c55ee5$e25266e0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> I have no problems whatsoever with the first -- I really enjoy and admire
> the examples of Bob Grumman's work that he has on his site.  But I'd (like
> you, Gregory?) see this as painting, not poetry.

Gahhh!!!!  It contains texts you have to read in order to appreciate it so 
has to be a form of literature, it seems to me.  But no more from me on it 
for a while.  I have a trip to get ready for.  I may make a brief comment or 
two today and tomorrow, but won't have time for more, and will be on the 
road Tuesday and Wednesday, and giving a presentation Thursday, and visiting 
various people Friday through Monday, and on the road the following two 
days.  Probably won't be able to reach New-Poetry while away however 
desperate to.  Will look forward to how horribly you two and whoever else 
joins in misdefines all forms of poetry.

Oh, one other point: many of my mathemaku, especially the earlier ones that 
Gregory prefers to my Paint Shop ones, contain nothing but words and 
mathematical symbols, so can't reasonably be called visual poetry, though 
they are by those who think any text with odd-looking things in them are 
visual poems.  Some of the Paint Shop ones are only ornamentally 
visual--i.e., given pretty backgrounds and colored.

--Bob 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sun May 22 12:05:19 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:05:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
References: <200505211639.j4LGdAXx030955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com><008d01c55ed7$0ee25260$09042cd9@Robin>
	<006b01c55ee5$e25266e0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00df01c55ee8$0d8ec090$09042cd9@Robin>

> Gahhh!!!!  It contains texts you have to read in order to appreciate it so
> has to be a form of literature, it seems to me.

Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in Arcadia
Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar.  Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un
pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a painting,
not a poem.  And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple
typographical images, words even.

So I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but equally the arguments you
use here aren't (to me) conclusive.

But then it's your art object, so I suppose you have some right to call it
(them) what you will.

I'll have another look in the light of your infuriated Gahhh!!!

Travel safely and discourse well.

Robin





From JforJames at aol.com  Sun May 22 12:15:05 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 12:15:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] French thinker Paul Ricoeur dies 
Message-ID: <1fe.21ae339.2fc20a09@aol.com>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4570183.stm

French thinker Paul Ricoeur dies  
 
Ricoeur spent much of the war in a German camp 
French philosopher and teacher Paul Ricoeur, whose interests ranged from 
phenomenology to biblical exegesis, has died, aged 92
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May 22 12:40:16 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 12:40:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
References: <200505211639.j4LGdAXx030955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com><008d01c55ed7$0ee25260$09042cd9@Robin><006b01c55ee5$e25266e0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00df01c55ee8$0d8ec090$09042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <008a01c55eec$ef34b9b0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> Gahhh!!!!  It contains texts you have to read in order to appreciate it 
>> so
>> has to be a form of literature, it seems to me.
>
> Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in 
> Arcadia
> Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar.  Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un
> pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a 
> painting,
> not a poem.  And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple
> typographical images, words even.

You're just claiming titles make a work literature; they don't.  The words 
in my mathematical paintings are not titles.

> So I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but equally the arguments you
> use here aren't (to me) conclusive.
>
> But then it's your art object, so I suppose you have some right to call it
> (them) what you will.

No, I need to call it what it is.  (I am classifying it, a social act, not 
naming it, a personal act.)

> I'll have another look in the light of your infuriated Gahhh!!!
>
> Travel safely and discourse well.
>
> Robin

Thanks, but here I am again.

--Bob 




From JforJames at aol.com  Sun May 22 12:41:50 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 12:41:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
Message-ID: <12e.5e783451.2fc2104e@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/22/2005 9:29:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
uche at ogbuji.net writes:

> This is that old poetic technique 
> >called anaphora (which free verse 
> >poets use often).
> 
> Actually, I know my prosody *and* rhetoric devices very well, so I know
> what it's called.  My point is that it's strictly a rhetorical device
> (Hey, I even said so!), and not a poetical one.  Poetry often uses
> rhetorical devices, but they do not alone support the ars poetica,
> otherwise every particularly skillful speech would be a poem.
> 

I knew you knew,. Uche,...but I wanted to question your eagerness 
to consign anaphora to rhetoric. Why refuse to recognize it
as a legit poetic device? Thousands upon thousands of poems 
use it, free and formal alike; and most guidebooks to literature 
or poetics give ample examples. Sexton was certainly using it 
as poetic device, and she knew what it was, too, I'm sure...
a forceful & insistant way to enter into her subject.

I don't want to get into 'What is a poem?', but it's hard for me
to mistake Sexton's piece for a speech. She may not have vested
those lines enough poetic diction, but that's a matter of taste.
The "tired of " and the nice selection of simple nouns worked 
for me.
Finnegan

Consorting With Angels

I was tired of being a woman,
tired of the spoons and pots,
tired of my mouth and my breasts,
tired of the cosmetics and the silks.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun May 22 13:02:27 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 13:02:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
Message-ID: <1ab.39047363.2fc21523@aol.com>

Edward Ruscha's work with words seems more art than visual poetry...
but I'm sure there is no definitive dividing line between the two
(when is there ever clear separation?). Often with Rushca (pronounced 
Ru-SHAY, I understand), the words are non-sequitur to scene/image.

http://artscenecal.com/Listings/WestHwd/GagosianFile/ERuschaFile/ERuschaPortfolio.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/critic/feature/0,1169,1341579,00.html

http://www.nga.gov/feature/ruscha/ruscha01.htm

Finnegan
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sun May 22 13:05:25 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:05:25 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
References: <200505211639.j4LGdAXx030955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com><008d01c55ed7$0ee25260$09042cd9@Robin><006b01c55ee5$e25266e0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00df01c55ee8$0d8ec090$09042cd9@Robin>
	<008a01c55eec$ef34b9b0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <011101c55ef0$732713f0$09042cd9@Robin>

> > Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in
> > Arcadia
> > Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar.  Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un
> > pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a
> > painting,
> > not a poem.  And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple
> > typographical images, words even.
>
> You're just claiming titles make a work literature; they don't.  The words
> in my mathematical paintings are not titles.

Well, um, no, Bob -- in both those cases, the words are embedded *within*
the picture.  See?

Not titles.  Titles are different things, the wee bitty words +outside+ the
frame that curators use to index the work in question.

Can we at least agree that we're talking about something like the
intersection of semantics and visual art?

> No, I need to call it what it is.  (I am classifying it, a social act, not
> naming it, a personal act.)

I'm not sure there's that sharp a distinction.  Adam naming the beasts?
What did the beasts call Adam?  "Silly prat, what's he on about naming me an
elephant?  What a miserable classification to be stuck in.  Just you wait
till I get my trunk round his neck ... "

> Thanks, but here I am again.

Whenever.

Robin




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sun May 22 13:15:40 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:15:40 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
References: <1ab.39047363.2fc21523@aol.com>
Message-ID: <013701c55ef1$e1652a40$09042cd9@Robin>

Having had a quick shufty at the works by and comments on Ruscha via the URL that Finnegan posted, this seems to be yet *another* issue -- Rushca seems (if I'm not misconstruing this) to *overlay* the words on top of a visual scene, not (as in my examples) embed them within it.

Or am I pin-dancing again?

Robin
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 6:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Sexton / Plath


  Edward Ruscha's work with words seems more art than visual poetry...
  but I'm sure there is no definitive dividing line between the two
  (when is there ever clear separation?). Often with Rushca (pronounced 
  Ru-SHAY, I understand), the words are non-sequitur to scene/image.
  http://artscenecal.com/Listings/WestHwd/GagosianFile/ERuschaFile/ERuschaPortfolio.html
  http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/critic/feature/0,1169,1341579,00.html
  http://www.nga.gov/feature/ruscha/ruscha01.htm

  Finnegan 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May 22 14:29:55 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:29:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
References: <200505211639.j4LGdAXx030955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com><008d01c55ed7$0ee25260$09042cd9@Robin><006b01c55ee5$e25266e0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00df01c55ee8$0d8ec090$09042cd9@Robin><008a01c55eec$ef34b9b0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<011101c55ef0$732713f0$09042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <00b501c55efc$40f0a750$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> > Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in
>> > Arcadia
>> > Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar.  Magritte's "Ceci nes pas 
>> > un
>> > pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a
>> > painting,
>> > not a poem.  And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple
>> > typographical images, words even.
>>
>> You're just claiming titles make a work literature; they don't.  The 
>> words
>> in my mathematical paintings are not titles.
>
> Well, um, no, Bob -- in both those cases, the words are embedded *within*
> the picture.  See?
>
> Not titles.  Titles are different things, the wee bitty words +outside+ 
> the
> frame that curators use to index the work in question.

Some titles are inside the frame.   But it doesn't matter where you put 
titles, they remain titles.  Or captions.  Embedded captions is what I call 
them in my taxonomy.   Labels.  The texts in my works aren't labels.

> Can we at least agree that we're talking about something like the
> intersection of semantics and visual art?

Sure.

>> No, I need to call it what it is.  (I am classifying it, a social act, 
>> not
>> naming it, a personal act.)

> I'm not sure there's that sharp a distinction.  Adam naming the beasts?
> What did the beasts call Adam?  "Silly prat, what's he on about naming me 
> an
> elephant?  What a miserable classification to be stuck in.  Just you wait
> till I get my trunk round his neck ... "

I'm just saying what I name my things is my own affair, but what I claim 
them to be is social, and must be passed by the assembly.  I can name my 
cat, "Dog," but I can't claim her to be a dog.  If I want to 
besoci-linguistically responsible, and I do.

--Bob 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May 22 14:33:26 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:33:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
References: <1ab.39047363.2fc21523@aol.com>
	<013701c55ef1$e1652a40$09042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <00d301c55efc$be76bf70$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Having had a quick shufty at the works by and comments on Ruscha via the URL that Finnegan posted, this seems to be yet *another* issue -- Rushca seems (if I'm not misconstruing this) to *overlay* the words on top of a visual scene, not (as in my examples) embed them within it.

  Or am I pin-dancing again?

  Robin

  You are, but that's hard to avoid.  I recently discussed a Ruscha painting from ARTnews that I consider a visual poem.  Some of his things are, some not, I imagine.  But, yes, all are close to what I call the borblur between what I call illumagery (for visual art) and what I call poetry.  

  --Bob
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From mandolin at mac.com  Sun May 22 14:38:24 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:38:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
In-Reply-To: <12e.5e783451.2fc2104e@aol.com>
References: <12e.5e783451.2fc2104e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <17619302-F0E5-4157-8325-BCD58E97589C@mac.com>


On May 22, 2005, at 12:41 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/22/2005 9:29:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,  
> uche at ogbuji.net writes:
>
>> This is that old poetic technique
>> >called anaphora (which free verse
>> >poets use often).
>>
>> Actually, I know my prosody *and* rhetoric devices very well, so I  
>> know
>> what it's called.  My point is that it's strictly a rhetorical device
>> (Hey, I even said so!), and not a poetical one.  Poetry often uses
>> rhetorical devices, but they do not alone support the ars poetica,
>> otherwise every particularly skillful speech would be a poem.
>
>
> I knew you knew,. Uche,...but I wanted to question your eagerness
> to consign anaphora to rhetoric. Why refuse to recognize it
> as a legit poetic device? Thousands upon thousands of poems
> use it, free and formal alike; and most guidebooks to literature
> or poetics give ample examples. Sexton was certainly using it
> as poetic device, and she knew what it was, too, I'm sure...
> a forceful & insistant way to enter into her subject.
>
> I don't want to get into 'What is a poem?', but it's hard for me
> to mistake Sexton's piece for a speech. She may not have vested
> those lines enough poetic diction, but that's a matter of taste.
> The "tired of " and the nice selection of simple nouns worked
> for me.
> Finnegan
>
> Consorting With Angels
>
> I was tired of being a woman,
> tired of the spoons and pots,
> tired of my mouth and my breasts,
> tired of the cosmetics and the silks.

Although It's good to have another formalist on board, Uche, I'm with  
James on this one, both on the poem in particular and the more  
general question of what makes verse -- that turning at the end of  
the line.

The European tradition from the Greeks until the latter part of the  
19th century always had some kind of metrical requirement for poetry  
-- and I think accentual- syllabic meters are peculiarly suited to  
modern English -- but there are other ways of making repeating  
rhythms which interact with and distinguish poetry from other uses of  
language. Hebrew poetry is a primary example in which meter is  
rudimentary at best and the rhythms are constructed through  
repitition and  contrast and symmetries.

There's no reason we shouldn't use those other tools, though, as I've  
said many times here, I think you get more help from the form with a- 
c, and a-c doesn't preclude the use of other techniques.

Prose poetry's another matter. Although I've written it, I don't call  
it poetry anymore -- flash fiction, or meditation, or something else.  
It seems to me poetry has to have a recognizable  line -- and that  
means there's a lot of so-called free verse that's just chopped up  
prose, and just to make Bob G unhappy (do I need a smiley here?), it  
means that INMNHO things like concrete and visual poetry are't poetry  
either. I often find them beautiful and/or intriguing, but they're  
too far from speech and song to be poetry. I wish they had another name.

Mike S


This world's just mad enough to have been made
By a Being His being's into being prayed.

Howard Nemerov's "Creation Myth on a Moebius Band"



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun May 22 14:42:30 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:42:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] online Reading
Message-ID: <007b01c55efe$029524c0$a7ab3452@ANNY>

Research in the Technological, Social, and Cultural Practices of Online Reading
(Conference / UCSB Roundtables 2005)


http://transliteracies.english.ucsb.edu/category/conference-2005/

Conference, June 17-18, 2005, McCune Room (6020 HSSB), UC Santa Barbara

_____________________________________________


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun May 22 15:12:55 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:12:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern and Contemporary Poetry
Message-ID: <1f8.a47ccd7.2fc233b7@aol.com>

Has this been out for a while. Any comments on it?
A friend mentioned just receiving a 'teacher's copy'
and thinking it necessary & sufficient conditions for
such an anthology...and the Poetics section was a nice 
addition.
Finnegan

http://www.wwnorton.com/college/titles/english/namcop3/highlights.htm

The Norton Anthology of Modern and Contemporary Poetry
Third Edition 
Jahan Ramazani, University of Virginia 
Richard Ellmann, late of Oxford University and Emory University 
Robert O?Clair, late of Manhattanville College 
2-Volume instructor?s set ? 0-393-97977-6 ? 1,100 p. each ? 2003 
2-Volume student set ? 0-393-97978-4 ? 1,100 p. each ? 2003 
Volume 1: Modern Poetry ? 0-393-97791-9 ? 1,100 p. ? 2003 
Volume 2: Contemporary Poetry ? 0-393-97792-7 ? 1,100 p. ? 2003 

New Selections195 poets, 51 new
1,596 poems, 837 new
118 reselected and updated

Drawing on a wealth of new and recent poetry, as well as recent scholarship, 
Professor Ramazani has reconsidered every poem in the anthologies. The Third 
Edition provides an unprecedentedly rich selection of world poetry in English, 
opening new possibilities for instructors who want to teach a truly anglophone 
poetry course. Likewise, fresh attention to experimental poets in both 
volumes gives new breadth and balance to the collection.

Classic Strengths RetainedIn-depth attention to major poets and major poetic 
trends?beginning with the "precursors" Whitman, Dickinson, and Hopkins?and 
generous selections, often demonstrating the span of a career, continue to be 
key principles of selection. Representation of many canonical figures, 
especially women and African American poets, has been increased?among them Auden, 
Bishop, Clampitt, Crane, Eliot, Ginsberg, Gl?ck, Harrison, Hayden, Heaney, Hughes, 
Larkin, McKay, Merrill, Moore, Owen, Plath, Rich, Roethke, Stevens, and 
Walcott.

New Poetics SectionEach volume now concludes with a new poetics secton of 
influential statements by poets.

New ApparatusMany of the headnotes and annotations, and all of the 
bibliographies, have been entirely rewritten. New volume introductions outline cogently 
the varied and interconnected movements of twentieth-century poetry.

New Two-Volume FormatNow more portable, the anthology is available in two 
paperback volumes: Volume 1, Modern Poetry and Volume 2, Contemporary Poetry.




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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sun May 22 15:38:24 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:38:24 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
References: <200505211639.j4LGdAXx030955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com><008d01c55ed7$0ee25260$09042cd9@Robin><006b01c55ee5$e25266e0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00df01c55ee8$0d8ec090$09042cd9@Robin><008a01c55eec$ef34b9b0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><011101c55ef0$732713f0$09042cd9@Robin>
	<00b501c55efc$40f0a750$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <01ca01c55f05$d31e9840$09042cd9@Robin>

> > Well, um, no, Bob -- in both those cases, the words are embedded
*within*
> > the picture.  See?
> >
> > Not titles.  Titles are different things, the wee bitty words +outside+
> > the
> > frame that curators use to index the work in question.
>
> Some titles are inside the frame.   But it doesn't matter where you put
> titles, they remain titles.  Or captions.  Embedded captions is what I
call
> them in my taxonomy.   Labels.  The texts in my works aren't labels.

... with Ruscha as overlaid captions?

But I think the examples I cited -- Et in Arcadia Ego and Ceci n'est pas une
pipe -- are more than simply captions -- they're integral to the total
meaning (whatever that is) of the painting -- obviously (?) in Magritte, but
also, in the other painting I'm thinking of, the juxtaposition of the
satyres who can't comprehend the words with the words themselves, so the
meaning isn't simply in the Latin phrase, but beyond that, that it's a
written text.  All in all, more than captions, I'd say.

Robin

(Who barely an hour ago realised he's departing the realms of cyberspace for
a week the day after tomorrow rather than the following Tuesday, so Bob and
I will both be away simultaneously.  I won't make the obvious comment that
no doubt some are thinking ...  R.)




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Sun May 22 16:08:10 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:08:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern and Contemporary
	Poetry
Message-ID: <9b.6005255e.2fc240aa@aol.com>

It's ok. They fall down a bit on living poets in a rush to include every  
conceivable minority while making some pretty startling omissions. I  would  use 
it for a survey course like 20th Century Poetry but not for a course whose  
focus was more contemporary.
 
Al
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From mandolin at mac.com  Sun May 22 16:39:44 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:39:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern and Contemporary
	Poetry
In-Reply-To: <9b.6005255e.2fc240aa@aol.com>
References: <9b.6005255e.2fc240aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <14C73D84-B239-4A6E-BBCD-C33458271DA5@mac.com>


On May 22, 2005, at 4:08 PM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote:

> It's ok. They fall down a bit on living poets in a rush to include  
> every conceivable minority while making some pretty startling  
> omissions
> I  would use it for a survey course like 20th Century Poetry but  
> not for a course whose focus was more contemporary.
>
> Al
> _______________________________________________

"pretty startling omissions" -- such as nearly every metrical writer.

Though it's not as bad as Rothenburg's Millenium anthology of "Modern  
and Postmodern poetry," which includes not a single poem by Richard  
Wilbur or Anthony Hecht.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May 22 17:02:44 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:02:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath
References: <200505211639.j4LGdAXx030955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com><008d01c55ed7$0ee25260$09042cd9@Robin><006b01c55ee5$e25266e0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00df01c55ee8$0d8ec090$09042cd9@Robin><008a01c55eec$ef34b9b0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><011101c55ef0$732713f0$09042cd9@Robin><00b501c55efc$40f0a750$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<01ca01c55f05$d31e9840$09042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <010701c55f11$99bc89c0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>> > Well, um, no, Bob -- in both those cases, the words are embedded
> *within*
>> > the picture.  See?
>> >
>> > Not titles.  Titles are different things, the wee bitty words +outside+
>> > the
>> > frame that curators use to index the work in question.
>>
>> Some titles are inside the frame.   But it doesn't matter where you put
>> titles, they remain titles.  Or captions.  Embedded captions is what I
> call
>> them in my taxonomy.   Labels.  The texts in my works aren't labels.
>
> ... with Ruscha as overlaid captions?

No.  At least not in the one I posted at my blog recently--"Noise."  The 
word, "Noise," was one element in a field.
>
> But I think the examples I cited -- Et in Arcadia Ego and Ceci n'est pas 
> une
> pipe -- are more than simply captions -- they're integral to the total
> meaning (whatever that is) of the painting -- obviously (?) in Magritte, 
> but
> also, in the other painting I'm thinking of, the juxtaposition of the
> satyres who can't comprehend the words with the words themselves, so the
> meaning isn't simply in the Latin phrase, but beyond that, that it's a
> written text.  All in all, more than captions, I'd say.
>
> Robin

Being integral doesn't make a lable not a label.  I personally think most of 
Klee's titles are integral to the paintings they're in.  More later.

--Bob

> (Who barely an hour ago realised he's departing the realms of cyberspace 
> for
> a week the day after tomorrow rather than the following Tuesday, so Bob 
> and
> I will both be away simultaneously.  I won't make the obvious comment that
> no doubt some are thinking ...  R.)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May 22 17:04:21 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:04:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern and
	ContemporaryPoetry
References: <9b.6005255e.2fc240aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011801c55f11$d3a7cf00$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

It's ok. They fall down a bit on living poets in a rush to include every conceivable minority


Except aesthetic minority.


while making some pretty startling omissions. I  would use it for a survey course like 20th Century Poetry but not for a course whose focus was more contemporary.

Why do I suspect that just about no poets more than chronologically contemporary have work in it.

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May 22 17:43:59 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:43:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern and
	ContemporaryPoetry
References: <9b.6005255e.2fc240aa@aol.com>
	<14C73D84-B239-4A6E-BBCD-C33458271DA5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <012101c55f17$5d89b6c0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>
> "pretty startling omissions" -- such as nearly every metrical writer.
>
> Though it's not as bad as Rothenburg's Millenium anthology of "Modern  and 
> Postmodern poetry," which includes not a single poem by Richard  Wilbur or 
> Anthony Hecht.

But wasn't that a specialized anthology, and the Norton supposed to cover 
the range?

--Bob G. 




From mandolin at mac.com  Sun May 22 17:46:36 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:46:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern
	and	ContemporaryPoetry
In-Reply-To: <012101c55f17$5d89b6c0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <9b.6005255e.2fc240aa@aol.com>
	<14C73D84-B239-4A6E-BBCD-C33458271DA5@mac.com>
	<012101c55f17$5d89b6c0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <93922E84-67EB-43D3-9E37-AFDE486135BF@mac.com>


On May 22, 2005, at 5:43 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>>
>> "pretty startling omissions" -- such as nearly every metrical writer.
>>
>> Though it's not as bad as Rothenburg's Millenium anthology of  
>> "Modern  and Postmodern poetry," which includes not a single poem  
>> by Richard  Wilbur or Anthony Hecht.
>>
>
> But wasn't that a specialized anthology, and the Norton supposed to  
> cover the range?
>


Take a look at the table of contents, Bob. You might like it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0520072251/ref=sib_rdr_toc/ 
103-4123147-6755807?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S002#reader-page

> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun May 22 18:03:16 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:03:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of
	Modern	and	ContemporaryPoetry
In-Reply-To: <93922E84-67EB-43D3-9E37-AFDE486135BF@mac.com>
References: <9b.6005255e.2fc240aa@aol.com>
	<14C73D84-B239-4A6E-BBCD-C33458271DA5@mac.com>
	<012101c55f17$5d89b6c0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<93922E84-67EB-43D3-9E37-AFDE486135BF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <FB9A53A2-EB2B-41C8-9AF6-90A905C230AF@mac.com>


On May 22, 2005, at 5:46 PM, Michael Snider wrote:

>>
>>
>
>
> Take a look at the table of contents, Bob. You might like it.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0520072251/ref=sib_rdr_toc/ 
> 103-4123147-6755807?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S002#reader-page
>
>
>

There's  a section on concrete poetry, but there's no Cummings -- and  
no Eliot. There's Pound, H.D., Stein, Stevens.

  The funniest thing is that James Joyce is there -- only not one of  
his poems. An excerpt from the unreadable Finnegan's Wake.(Well, not  
quite unreadable. I love to take it up from time to time and read 5  
ages at random. Wonderfully restoring.)



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun May 22 18:08:07 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:08:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The unkillable argument
In-Reply-To: <33abf27505052116406f3f3a08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BEB3BF4B.1236F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00f301c55d86$e2ae4600$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<6AD626E6-6B0F-4060-B9A7-8AE90B7DCE9B@mac.com>
	<011c01c55d95$122d5c00$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<93262089-8934-494C-94B0-DA404122DEF1@mac.com>
	<014801c55da4$3f2bc520$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<2BB901AE-2D76-4FD6-A575-20A2547DAE26@mac.com>
	<002401c55e3d$c30f1a10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<33abf27505052116406f3f3a08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <322C82D7-043E-4C9B-B096-8F0CADEABECF@mac.com>


On May 21, 2005, at 7:40 PM, Donna Casinghino wrote:

> Hell, I can do that. I'm told they're absolutely wonderful. Does that
> make me a great poet?
>
> Everyone's arguing for or against Frost as an important poet at the
> moment... Yeats was mentioned very briefly by someone else to rival
> Frost. How did Yeats get dropped from the argument so quickly?
>
> Since I'm hardly able to sustain a critical argument, I'll quote
> Amazon sale numbers and ask the questions. Yeats was a master at both
> delighting and instructing. (I leave the technical argument to those
> better suited.) In fact, a brief sojourn through his collected works
> would run the gamut through a dozen emotions, all exemplifying the
> human condition. And if Amazon numbers are any indication at all, it's
> obvious Yeats still speaks to the modern reader, much more so than
> Frost:
>
> Yeats: #15,727
> Frost:  #38,321
>
> Will no one champion Yeats?
>


I'm the one who mentioned Yeats -- in an aside to a reply to Bob's  
bizarre suggestion that Frost was not an important poet.

There are times when no on but Yeats will do for me, and I htink  
threre are poems of his better than almost anything in English from  
the 20th century. But I can't get past that loony system his poor  
wife had to grind  out for him. Of course sometimes HE got past it --

               Now that my ladder's gone,
I must lie down where all the ladders start
In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart.




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Sun May 22 18:16:30 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:16:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern and
	ContemporaryPoetry
Message-ID: <1d5.3c81f33d.2fc25ebe@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 5/22/2005 5:04:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

Why do I suspect that just about no poets more than  chronologically 
contemporary have work in  it.



Is there another way in which to be  contemporary?
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May 22 19:44:26 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:44:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modernand	ContemporaryPoetry
References: <9b.6005255e.2fc240aa@aol.com><14C73D84-B239-4A6E-BBCD-C33458271DA5@mac.com><012101c55f17$5d89b6c0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<93922E84-67EB-43D3-9E37-AFDE486135BF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <012e01c55f28$30c89730$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> But wasn't that a specialized anthology, and the Norton supposed to 
>> cover the range?
>
> Take a look at the table of contents, Bob. You might like it.
>

I have the set, and did an Amazon review of it, I think.  Actually, I don't 
much like it, though it has some things by a couple of people in my crowd 
that I know and respect.  It scants visual poetry, and pretty much ignores a 
lot of other poetry I favor.  But I don't think it was going for the full 
range of 20th-century poetry, just for what Rothenberg thinks is advanced, 
by which he means socially advanced.  If all the mainstream antholiges were 
like it, I'd dislike as much as I assume I'll dislike the Norton.  I approve 
of it only because it goes at least a little way toward my kind of poetry, 
and does make public a few kinds of poetries visible in no other mainstream 
anthology.  Amusingly, one of the volumes has a visual poem on its cover by 
Tom Phillips, whom I do consider an important visual poet--to visual poetry 
perhaps what Wilbur is to formal poetry.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May 22 19:54:18 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:54:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology ofModern	and	ContemporaryPoetry
References: <9b.6005255e.2fc240aa@aol.com><14C73D84-B239-4A6E-BBCD-C33458271DA5@mac.com><012101c55f17$5d89b6c0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><93922E84-67EB-43D3-9E37-AFDE486135BF@mac.com>
	<FB9A53A2-EB2B-41C8-9AF6-90A905C230AF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <013701c55f29$91beddf0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

E.E. Cummings isn't there, but e.e. cummings is--with Eliot, in volume one. 
A little weird since Williams, Stein and Joyce are in volume two. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun May 22 20:38:59 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:38:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry
References: <1d5.3c81f33d.2fc25ebe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <015501c55f2f$cff10cf0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  In a message dated 5/22/2005 5:04:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
    Why do I suspect that just about no poets more than chronologically contemporary have work in it.
  Is there another way in which to be contemporary?

  Yes, but you have to transcend literal-mindedness to be able to appreciate it.

  --Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun May 22 20:52:33 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:52:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern and
	ContemporaryPoetry
Message-ID: <202.21fdd0b.2fc28351@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/22/2005 5:46:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes:

> Take a look at the table of contents, Bob. You might like it.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0520072251/ref=sib_rdr_toc/ 
> 103-4123147-6755807?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S002#reader-page

The Rothenberg-Joris two volume set is wonderful, I think. They
had an avant-gardist agenda, for sure, but they did a great job
puling together texts that hadn't a snowball's chance in hell
of making the contents page sanction under the name Norton
.
The fourth edition of The Norton Anthology of Poetry well represents
the formalist strains in contemporary poetry. Mary Jo Salter was 
one of the editors; and she's no stranger to the formalist inclination.
Finnegan 
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From aburke at iinet.net.au  Sun May 22 22:24:39 2005
From: aburke at iinet.net.au (Andrew Burke)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 10:24:39 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
References: <1f3.a357140.2fc10bb8@aol.com>
	<1116768535.1829.405.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <003201c55f3e$9310f3e0$3a063bcb@andrewbu>

What does it matter what it is called? It is a piece of writing. My
definition of poetry is much much broader than yours, but that's just a
personal thing. Call it prose if you like, but read it and hear it. I have
the same problem with jazz - the 'mouldy old fig' school dismisses
everything after the swing bands; some of my mates dismiss anything with
electronic instruments in it; etc. Perhaps it is your lack and not the
writing's that you are hung up on which pigeonhole it fits in. Just go with
the flow, Uche, and consort with the words.

Andrew

PS: and the words 'free verse' are a bad translation of vers libre. It is
really 'liberated verse' - liberated from the straight jackets of the past
and all the filigree and extraneous verbiage of the era in which it began
(in English, anyway - the French were a mile ahead of us).


----- Original Message -----
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sextons


> On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 18:10 -0400, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > In a message dated 5/21/2005 8:32:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > uche at ogbuji.net writes:
> >
> > > >Consorting With Angels
> > > >
> > > >I was tired of being a woman,
> > > >tired of the spoons and pots,
> > > >tired of my mouth and my breasts,
> > > >tired of the cosmetics and the silks.
> > >
> > > My main problem with free verse is immediate.  Why is this verse?
> > > Poetry is not mere rhetoric, and the rhetorical device here seems to
> > > be
> > > intended for making one feel that she is saying something more
> > > profound
> > > than she is.  Since she hardly maintains rhythm through these lines,
> > > why
> > > are they any different from something a good number of educated
> > > women
> > > have uttered at one time or another?
> >
> > Uche,
> > This is that old poetic technique
> > called anaphora (which free verse
> > poets use often).
>
> Actually, I know my prosody *and* rhetoric devices very well, so I know
> what it's called.  My point is that it's strictly a rhetorical device
> (Hey, I even said so!), and not a poetical one.  Poetry often uses
> rhetorical devices, but they do not alone support the ars poetica,
> otherwise every particularly skillful speech would be a poem.
>
> --
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Sun May 22 21:39:47 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:39:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry
Message-ID: <dd.270666b3.2fc28e63@aol.com>

OOOOHHHHH
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Sun May 22 21:42:00 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:42:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry
Message-ID: <19a.3468ee8d.2fc28ee8@aol.com>

Jusst to clarify, and so that I don't get caught defending the Norton  
anthology, which could be much better than it is, anthologies are generally  
arranged chronologically, Bob. You know that. 
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun May 22 10:55:08 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 22:55:08 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yeat's "Loony System"
In-Reply-To: <200505230131.j4N1VLRe000470@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200505230131.j4N1VLRe000470@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300beb647588a35@[204.215.201.30]>

As to Mr. Snider's dismissal of "The Vision."

Yeats was as great an astrologer as Alfred Witte or Vettius Valens or 
Ptolemy or Carl Jung or King Wen; his system will find a proper 
hearing when thinkers recognize the connection, the missing link, his 
astrology provides in the future university where all the colleges of 
thought and reckoning play their appropriate roles, unlike today when 
Physics and its uses for Cosmology by way of Astronomos, and 
Theology, unconsciously conspire against Astrology both 
intellectually and politically, thereby weakening the standing of 
poets, as well, in their role of Mythologians.

>The Second Coming -- W. B. Yeats
>
>
>
>Turning and turning in the widening gyre
>The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
>Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
>Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
>The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
>The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
>The best lack all convictions, while the worst
>Are full of passionate intensity.
>
>
>Surely some revelation is at hand;
>Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
>The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
>When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
>Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
>A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
>A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
>Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
>Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
>The darkness drops again; but now I know
>That twenty centuries of stony sleep
>Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
>And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
>Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
>

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n


At 09:31 PM -0400 5/22/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
>  > Will no one champion Yeats?
>>
>
>I'm the one who mentioned Yeats -- in an aside to a reply to Bob's 
>bizarre suggestion that Frost was not an important poet.
>
>There are times when no on but Yeats will do for me, and I htink 
>threre are poems of his better than almost anything in English from 
>the 20th century. But I can't get past that loony system his poor 
>wife had to grind  out for him. Of course sometimes HE got past it --
>
>                Now that my ladder's gone,
>I must lie down where all the ladders start
>In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart.


-- 
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From Kazmandu at aol.com  Mon May 23 00:39:15 2005
From: Kazmandu at aol.com (Kazmandu at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 00:39:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 11, Issue 32
Message-ID: <15c.5101bc92.2fc2b873@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 5/22/2005 9:04:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes:

I have  no problems whatsoever with the first -- I really enjoy and admire
the  examples of Bob Grumman's work that he has on his site.  But I'd  (like
you, Gregory?) see this as painting, not  poetry.


I would bet if you talk with a handful of painters they would disagree with  
you ... they would jump on similar to your own (vispo is not poetry) band 
wagon  and say that if there is no paint there is no painting ... I personally  
find math-po an entirely new aesthetic form not art and not  mathematics.
 
Kaz Maslanka
 
_http://www.kazmaslanka.com_ (http://www.kazmaslanka.com) 
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From Kazmandu at aol.com  Mon May 23 00:51:07 2005
From: Kazmandu at aol.com (Kazmandu at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 00:51:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:The Lessons of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton / Plath 
Message-ID: <85.281f95a5.2fc2bb3b@aol.com>

 
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:05:19 +0100
From: "Robin Hamilton"  <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons  of Concrete Poetry  / Sexton /
Plath

Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un
pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but  the end result is still a painting,
not a poem.  


Magritte actually considered his paintings poetic and many have called them  
poems ... evidently their definition of poetry is strictly metaphorical
 
Kaz
 
_http://www.kazmaslanka.com_ (http://www.kazmaslanka.com) 
 
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From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Mon May 23 03:26:48 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:26:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
In-Reply-To: <009901c55edb$c9090ef0$09042cd9@Robin>
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net>
	<009901c55edb$c9090ef0$09042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <1116833208.429185b82b3da@webmail.ukonline.net>

You beat me to the punch, Robin. I was gonna say Black and Thomas, too. The 
line has connections with Peter Redgrove (at least, they share the same 
Penguin Modern Poets volume), many of whose poems veer on sf-land. Jeremy Reed 
wrote some poems that are more or less perfect compressed sf stories, around 
the mid-Eighties - he was mainlining Ballard. 



Quoting Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>:

> From: "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu>
> 
> > ...which led to a more "serious" question: Has anyone
> > written any poetry (worth re-reading) about science-fiction
> > issues, e.g., about alien contact, or about what one
> > might experience in orbit or in space?
> 
> Both my examples are Scots (sorry) -- Edwin Morgan and D.M.Black.
> 
> Specific titles on request.
> 
> I think D.M.Thomas (English)  did some, but the ones of his I've come on are
> crap, versification of existing SF stories.  *Not* worth reading, let alone
> rereading.
> 
> There was an anthology published here, edited by Edward Lucie-Smith, called
> +Holding My Eight Hands+, but I don't have it to hand.
> 
> Robin Hamilton
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May 23 06:16:47 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 06:16:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
References: <1f3.a357140.2fc10bb8@aol.com><1116768535.1829.405.camel@malatesta>
	<003201c55f3e$9310f3e0$3a063bcb@andrewbu>
Message-ID: <002601c55f80$872d6940$5ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> What does it matter what it is called?

Because even for poets words should mean something.

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May 23 06:25:01 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 06:25:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com><5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net><009901c55edb$c9090ef0$09042cd9@Robin>
	<1116833208.429185b82b3da@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <006201c55f81$ada70030$5ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Was going to inform the group yesterday that

http://home.earthlink.net/~dragontea/

will get you the homepage of Dreams and Nightmares, a zine of sci fi poetry 
edited by my friend David Kopaska-Merkel.  The poetry is mostly mainstream, 
with sci fi the subject matter.

--Bob G. 




From tad at opus40.org  Mon May 23 06:28:00 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 06:28:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com><5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net><009901c55edb$c9090ef0$09042cd9@Robin><1116833208.429185b82b3da@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<006201c55f81$ada70030$5ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002501c55f82$1d6babf0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Here's one.


THREE WOMEN

 

Three women meet and tell each other their stories.

They are amazed at the similarities. Each is in her twenties,

skinny, with bones for hips; each has sunken eyes,

hair spiky on top, wispy down her neck.

Each wears a stud in her navel, and all three 

navels are visible, below ratty T-shirts, above

the frayed waistbands of blue jeans.

 

Each has, above her jutting left pelvic bone,

a discoloration. Each, in turn, tugs down on

a belt loop, till it shows purple, the shape of

an archipelago, more like a birthmark

than a bruise, but each confesses

the discoloration is recent.

 

To get to the meat of it, each

of these women has had sex with aliens.

Apparently they are the aliens' type,

though they distrust each other, and would acknowledge no likeness.

 

Each wonders if the others are holding back secrets.

There should be more, each thinks, than this purple spot

and a burning, similar to a yeast infection

except for the pulsing, and a faint hum-

a guy sitting hear them, staring into his beer, thinks

he hears a chromatic chord, rising and falling, 

though where it comes from, he would not hazard a guess.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May 23 06:55:18 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:55:18 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com><5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net><009901c55edb$c9090ef0$09042cd9@Robin>
	<1116833208.429185b82b3da@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <00e301c55f85$e9488420$09042cd9@Robin>

> The
> line has connections with Peter Redgrove

I thought of mentioning Redgrove, Michael, but he's not quite so
specifically SF, is he?

> (at least, they share the same
> Penguin Modern Poets volume), many of whose poems veer on sf-land.

Yeah, odd that, two D.M.s in one volume.

(But there's not a filiation between the three -- Penguin simply dumped them
into the same basket -- PMP 11.  Vague similarity of theme, but no real
links between the three writers.)

Closest David Black ever got to hitting the big time.

D.M.Thomas, au contraire, simply makes me want to puke.

> Jeremy Reed
> wrote some poems that are more or less perfect compressed sf stories,
around
> the mid-Eighties - he was mainlining Ballard.

Must look out for that -- haven't come on it.

        A Stoned Dormouse currently baked from Hasty Pudding




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon May 23 06:56:02 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:56:02 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com><5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net><009901c55edb$c9090ef0$09042cd9@Robin><1116833208.429185b82b3da@webmail.ukonline.net><006201c55f81$ada70030$5ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002501c55f82$1d6babf0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <002801c55f86$03065450$58ec3652@ANNY>


I teach teenagers (mainly, besides my adults' courses)! This is a great poem 
Tad, it depicts some perfectly,

take care, Anny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?


> Here's one.
>
>
> THREE WOMEN
>
>
>
> Three women meet and tell each other their stories.
>
> They are amazed at the similarities. Each is in her twenties,
>
> skinny, with bones for hips; each has sunken eyes,
>
> hair spiky on top, wispy down her neck.
>
> Each wears a stud in her navel, and all three
> navels are visible, below ratty T-shirts, above
>
> the frayed waistbands of blue jeans.
>
>
>
> Each has, above her jutting left pelvic bone,
>
> a discoloration. Each, in turn, tugs down on
>
> a belt loop, till it shows purple, the shape of
>
> an archipelago, more like a birthmark
>
> than a bruise, but each confesses
>
> the discoloration is recent.
>
>
>
> To get to the meat of it, each
>
> of these women has had sex with aliens.
>
> Apparently they are the aliens' type,
>
> though they distrust each other, and would acknowledge no likeness.
>
>
>
> Each wonders if the others are holding back secrets.
>
> There should be more, each thinks, than this purple spot
>
> and a burning, similar to a yeast infection
>
> except for the pulsing, and a faint hum-
>
> a guy sitting hear them, staring into his beer, thinks
>
> he hears a chromatic chord, rising and falling,
> though where it comes from, he would not hazard a guess.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon May 23 07:16:50 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:16:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] Misery
Message-ID: <003701c55f88$eb0c9af0$58ec3652@ANNY>

Updates on what I watched lately, 3 SF.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Anny Ballardini 
To: anny.ballardini at tin.it 
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 1:14 PM
Subject: [NarcissusWorks] Misery


.
I was unlucky enough this time to pick up a lot of trash at the multimedia library where I usually go ? fact is I do not have too much choice seen the indigestion of movies I usually inflict to myself. Well _Scanners_ by David Cronenberg was not that bad, or better not as bad as Saturn 3 by Donen Stanley. _The Omega man_ by Boris Sagal could have some good hints but boring I would say and simple in its quite predicatable unfolding. I had previously watched _Misery_ by Bob Reiner adapted from Stephen King?s novel. The psychological investigation is fearful, and there are heights worth the hour you have to spend to watch it. Misery, the miserable miserable being able to hurt deeply, if not kill (as this was the intention of A. Wilkes (Kathy Bates) if a twist in the script did not decide otherwise. Enormous unsolved problems, this is what characterizes Wilkes, and the innocent has to pay. Sounds quite familiar, doesn?t it?
. 

--
Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 5/23/2005 01:12:00 PM 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May 23 07:38:01 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:38:01 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Odd But True ...
References: <003701c55f88$eb0c9af0$58ec3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <012e01c55f8b$e0d697e0$09042cd9@Robin>

I've just finished trying to pay a phone-bill over the phone, and inter alia it turned out that the guy at the other end of the call centre I was talking to was a Welsh graphic designer, so we started batting around the Is it a poem?  Is it a Painting? issue.

I hope for his sake the call wasn't being monitored.

A Bemused Stone Dormouse.

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From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon May 23 07:50:25 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 05:50:25 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
In-Reply-To: <003201c55f3e$9310f3e0$3a063bcb@andrewbu>
References: <1f3.a357140.2fc10bb8@aol.com>
	<1116768535.1829.405.camel@malatesta>
	<003201c55f3e$9310f3e0$3a063bcb@andrewbu>
Message-ID: <1116849025.1829.415.camel@malatesta>

On Mon, 2005-05-23 at 10:24 +0800, Andrew Burke wrote:
> What does it matter what it is called? It is a piece of writing.

We often read in verse things that we wouldn't bother to read in prose,
because we have already heard or read the sentiment 100,000 times, and
the writer is not bringing any new sensibility to the expression.

> My
> definition of poetry is much much broader than yours, but that's just a
> personal thing. Call it prose if you like, but read it and hear it.

Sure.  I did.  And I immediately wondered what I had gained by doing so.
I've heard others say essentially the same thing.  If I typed them all
down into a document and sent them to you, would you really want to read
and hear them all?

> I have
> the same problem with jazz - the 'mouldy old fig' school dismisses
> everything after the swing bands; some of my mates dismiss anything with
> electronic instruments in it; etc. Perhaps it is your lack and not the
> writing's that you are hung up on which pigeonhole it fits in. Just go with
> the flow, Uche, and consort with the words.

This is pretty facile stuff.  By your ludicrous formula, you appreciate
every single thing you read?  You take the time to read every thing you
come across?

Don't be silly, and if you can, express what about that poem is
especially of merit.  If you can't, let's just not further a useless
conversation.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon May 23 08:20:02 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 06:20:02 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
In-Reply-To: <12e.5e783451.2fc2104e@aol.com>
References: <12e.5e783451.2fc2104e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1116850803.1829.441.camel@malatesta>

On Sun, 2005-05-22 at 12:41 -0400, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/22/2005 9:29:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> uche at ogbuji.net writes:
> 
> > This is that old poetic technique 
> > >called anaphora (which free verse 
> > >poets use often).
> > 
> > Actually, I know my prosody *and* rhetoric devices very well, so I
> > know
> > what it's called.  My point is that it's strictly a rhetorical
> > device
> > (Hey, I even said so!), and not a poetical one.  Poetry often uses
> > rhetorical devices, but they do not alone support the ars poetica,
> > otherwise every particularly skillful speech would be a poem.
> 
> 
> I knew you knew,. Uche,...but I wanted to question your eagerness 
> to consign anaphora to rhetoric. Why refuse to recognize it
> as a legit poetic device?

I think poetic devices have two functions: to compress meaning, and to
establish rhythm (using this word in its broadest sense).  All I've done
here is to use my own words for matters that are quite well accepted in
prosody.

And prosody has a very important function: it tries to express what
works about poetry, so that we can continue to further the art.

My first reaction to those starting lines of Sexton's was "Ho hum, can
we move on the next poem, already"?  This was a visceral, not a prosodic
reaction.  I examined the poem more closely to see why I was having that
reaction, and whether I was missing anything.  It's the same when Sexton
clumsily trips over her reason.  I'm just reading the poem aloud, and I
trip over something that sounds terrible, destroying any likely beauty
of the expression.  I then stop to actually figure out what rhythm was
expressed, and how it was stalled, and whether I was missing anything.
Sometimes I've made very important discoveries in a poem, that way, but
there wasn't even a shadow of ratio when I pursued the ruptures in
Sexton's verse.

If one accepts that device as poetical (and I'm willing to do so, for
purposes of this discussion), I'm still left with the problem that
Sexton has not said anything that rises far beyond the quotidian.
People were just rhapsodizing here (and rightly so) about the
sensitivity and virtuosity of how Robert Frost explored humanity.
That's what I read poetry for, not well-worn prose that happens to be
chopped up into lines.

Otherwise, if we are to have no discernment, why don't we just wander
around town, picking up newspapers, and reading them?

> I don't want to get into 'What is a poem?', but it's hard for me
> to mistake Sexton's piece for a speech. She may not have vested
> those lines enough poetic diction, but that's a matter of taste.
> The "tired of " and the nice selection of simple nouns worked 
> for me.
> Finnegan
> 
> Consorting With Angels
> 
> I was tired of being a woman,
> tired of the spoons and pots,
> tired of my mouth and my breasts,
> tired of the cosmetics and the silks.

*sigh*  I wish it were so bloody easy to be a poet.

I was tired of being a wrench
Tired of the bolts and screws
Tired of my head and my grip
Tired of the cleansing oil and the rags.

Ho hum.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon May 23 08:36:24 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 06:36:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
In-Reply-To: <17619302-F0E5-4157-8325-BCD58E97589C@mac.com>
References: <12e.5e783451.2fc2104e@aol.com>
	<17619302-F0E5-4157-8325-BCD58E97589C@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1116851785.1829.459.camel@malatesta>

On Sun, 2005-05-22 at 14:38 -0400, Michael Snider wrote:
> On May 22, 2005, at 12:41 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> > I don't want to get into 'What is a poem?', but it's hard for me
> > to mistake Sexton's piece for a speech. She may not have vested
> > those lines enough poetic diction, but that's a matter of taste.
> > The "tired of " and the nice selection of simple nouns worked
> > for me.
> > Finnegan
> >
> > Consorting With Angels
> >
> > I was tired of being a woman,
> > tired of the spoons and pots,
> > tired of my mouth and my breasts,
> > tired of the cosmetics and the silks.
> 
> Although It's good to have another formalist on board, Uche,

Oh, is that what I am?  Funny how we don't want to be discerning about
poetry, but we do want discernment about criticism.  I made my points
about Sexton well within the framework of free verse.


> I'm with  
> James on this one, both on the poem in particular and the more  
> general question of what makes verse -- that turning at the end of  
> the line.

Turning?  Maybe we're getting somewhere?  OK, so what is it about the
Sexton example that is particularly "turning"?  

I went to the BBC News front page and clicked the topmost news link,
from which:

The commander of a new unit
Set up to fight insurgents in Iraq
Has been shot dead
In Baghdad.

What is it that is not turning about the ends of these lines?

> The European tradition from the Greeks until the latter part of the  
> 19th century always had some kind of metrical requirement for poetry  
> -- and I think accentual- syllabic meters are peculiarly suited to  
> modern English -- but there are other ways of making repeating  
> rhythms which interact with and distinguish poetry from other uses of  
> language. Hebrew poetry is a primary example in which meter is  
> rudimentary at best and the rhythms are constructed through  
> repitition and  contrast and symmetries.

I certainly agree that there are others ways.  The issue is that they
are ways, and thus, you can recognize them, and they add to enjoyment.
I specifically pointed out areas where Sexton's sense of rhythm was
abysmal.  It had nothing to do with her adherence to any accentual-
syllabic meter (although it is always a mistake to discount the
importance of accentual arrangement in English: it's far more important
than syllabic arrangement, and even, say, rap can't avoid it).  Sexton
just seems to be clumsy with phrases.  I think the clumsiness might even
be bad enough to show through if I were reading her as prose.

> There's no reason we shouldn't use those other tools, though, as I've  
> said many times here, I think you get more help from the form with a- 
> c, and a-c doesn't preclude the use of other techniques.

Who says it does?  Not I.

> Prose poetry's another matter. Although I've written it, I don't call  
> it poetry anymore -- flash fiction, or meditation, or something else.  
> It seems to me poetry has to have a recognizable  line -- and that  
> means there's a lot of so-called free verse that's just chopped up  
> prose, and just to make Bob G unhappy (do I need a smiley here?), it  
> means that INMNHO things like concrete and visual poetry are't poetry  
> either. I often find them beautiful and/or intriguing, but they're  
> too far from speech and song to be poetry. I wish they had another name.

Oh, so you do have boundaries?  I thought it didn't matter.  I think I
give up.  The bottom line for me is that I can't enjoy Sexton.  I find
her writing very clumsy, whatever you choose to call it.  I've gone to
the trouble to be specific about this clumsiness based on poems of hers
others posted.  Most of what I've got in response are feel-good
vagaries.  Then again, that's what I expected.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon May 23 08:44:45 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 06:44:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosody on the Amstel
Message-ID: <1116852285.1829.465.camel@malatesta>

I'm off to Amsterdam tonight, and won't be back until Sunday.  I
announce the fact because I'm in the middle of a few thick threads and
will not be able to see any further proceedings until I return.  Then
again, I think all the threads in question are undecidable, so it might
be just as well for them to snore towards suffocation.

Be well, all.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From Thom424 at aol.com  Mon May 23 09:57:50 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:57:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] new poetry anthology
Message-ID: <e1.13f54c28.2fc33b5e@aol.com>

a few posts ago, someone mentioned something about the 
arrangement/organization of poetry anthologies?i think the post had something to do with a 
discussion of +s and ?s ofchronological arrangement.   in any case, i just unwrapped a 
new anthology from wadsworth titled, appropriately, *the wadsworth anthology 
of poetry* edited by jay parini. it's a massive paperback: 1078 poems and 1712 
pages + a cd-rom called "poetry in the 21st century" that includes 120 poems 
read aloud (mostly by the poets themselves), an interactive timeline, poems & 
bios of 250+ poets, a video anthology of slam poetry, and something called "the 
explicator," a tool for aiding in close textual analysis.

but perhaps most interesting is the organization of the poetry: 24 
"mini-anthologies" of @ 50 poems each, exploring a variety of shapes (forms), themes, 
and something parini calls "contexts," that is, poets responding to specific 
poems or poetic traditions (for example, pairing moore's "the fish" and bishop's 
"the fish"). the appendix includes a chronological table of contents" for 
those who might wish to use the anthology that way (a selection from *the bible*, 
1000 b.c. to a poem by bryan henry, b. 1972).

lots of electronic teaching/learning peripherals for those who adopt the 
anthology for classroom use.

for more about the anthology, including full table of contents and a demo of 
the cd-rom, follow this link:     <
http://www.newtexts.com/newtexts/book.cfm?book_id=2931>

here is what parini has to say about his new anthology:

"This is a letter about the Wadsworth Anthology of Poetry, which I have just 
edited. I decided to assemble this volume out of frustration with the previous 
anthologies. The Norton, for example, knows nothing but chronology. I wanted 
to have in my hands, for my own teaching purposes, a book that organized poems 
-- my favorite poems -- in a way that made sense in the classroom, viewing 
poetry not as simply a march through time but as a living body of work that 
remains in touch with itself, that refreshes itself, that organizes itself not 
according to date and time but according to types of poetry, lines of influence, 
echoes.
      This is a book in which all poetry is living, in touch with the poems 
that came before in a reactive way. The volume is organized along various lines 
of influence. For example, the idea of form is essential to the volume, and 
the idea of poetic conventions. And so there is a section on odes, sonnets, 
villanelles, and so forth. Basic generic types, such as epic and elegy, are also 
used as a way of corralling poems, a way of talking about how poems talk to 
each other, how they grow and evolve and develop, generation by generation.
      Chronology is still, of course, of vital importance, so each of the 
twenty or so sections is organized along the time-line. In this way, students can 
see how blank verse evolved, or how the epic spoke to different times in 
different ways. I think it will be illuminating and fun to follow the shifting 
types of elegy or ballad, sonnet or sestina.
      Of course poems also cluster according to theme, and I have tried to 
isolate the main themes here, such as love, war, death, nature, and politics. 
These sections should make for exciting classroom discussions, as students see 
how poets over time have debated the same themes, have treated subjects of huge 
importance to the human race.
      The final section is called "Poets in Dialogue," and there I look 
directly at poems in which poets speak to other poems as well as other poets. 
Poetry is, in my view, an ongoing conversation. This section cements that idea, 
makes it concrete. Poets respond sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly, to the 
poems and poets before them. This section makes those connections explicit. 
There should be a good deal of room for classroom discussion generated by these 
selections.
      Finally, I tried to include two sorts of poems here: classic poems, 
past and present, and poems that seemed to me neglected in some way but really 
worth reading. I've tried to bring to light a fair number of rather unknown or 
relatively unknown poems by poets who might not always be seen in the main 
stream. Some of these are favorite of mine. I made sure to include mostly poems 
that are accessible to students at a fairly introductory level. As a result, I 
favored such poets as Seamus Heaney and Robert Frost over some of the more 
obscure modernist or postmodernist poets. A student will find, for example, Jorie 
Graham here, but not prominently.
      I believe this anthology will go a long way toward remaking the way 
poetry is taught in colleges in the U.S. I hope so, and welcome comments and 
ideas from teachers along the way."

`````````````````````````
thom tammaro
moorhead, mn 56560



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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon May 23 12:40:03 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:40:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
In-Reply-To: <1116851785.1829.459.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <BEB77193.12482%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/23/05 7:36 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:

> The bottom line for me is that I can't enjoy Sexton.  I find
> her writing very clumsy, whatever you choose to call it.  I've gone to
> the trouble to be specific about this clumsiness based on poems of hers
> others posted.  Most of what I've got in response are feel-good
> vagaries.  Then again, that's what I expected.

Sexton is not near the tip-top of my list of 20th century poets, so I am not
inclined to leap to her defense.  She published too much slack verse, in my
opinion, but there remains a core of great interest, according to my own
taste.  And she also remains highly significant historically, in terms of
her influence on other poets, her breaking of certain thematic ground, and
so forth.

Among other things this discussion has, I think, exposed some of the
perennial issues of taste and aesthetics in a handy way.

The bottom line for me is that I *can* enjoy Sexton, at least a good healthy
helping of her work (the *Selected Poems* edited by Middlebrook & George
does a good job of weeding, I'd say).  But it seems we're right up against
the unarguable when terms like "clumsy" occur.  This is not a swipe at Uche
or his taste, just a recognition that we're never likely to agree on things
once we've entered this realm.  Uche has called our attention to examples of
things he finds clumsy, and I appreciate that.  It's instructive.  But if I
don't agree with his ear, discussion really does falter at that point, seems
to me.   

Uche has called Berryman clumsy a couple times, and I'd be interested in
knowing more about that, for I think I probably disagree about the best of
the "Dream Songs".  (I myself find *Love & Fame* unreadable.)  In the larger
sense, some find Milton awkward; some find grandeur in his knotty syntax.
Some find Whitman inspiring and original; others find him woozy, tedious,
and simplistic.  Many enjoy Pope's couplets, while many others would agree
with Keats that he rides a hobby horse and thinks it Pegasus.

Some find the roughened textures and highly conversational sort of music
that Sexton employs to be, well, mere prose.  Others find liberation in that
break from the strictures of previous poetry, and find her anaphora in the
passages quoted to be musically compelling.

One further thought:  I've noticed that in that other old unkillable
argument, free verse vs. meter, we often seem to slip rapidly into
discussion of theme.  Free verse poets are frequently lambasted not just for
being prosy but for being dull, sensational, self-absorbed, etc.  I can't
count the number of times I've seen complaints about anecdotal &
confessional free verse, for instance--as if one cannot be both anecdotal
and confessional (for good or ill) in meter.  Not to mention dull,
self-absorbed, clumsy, and so on.

In other words, seems obvious that many readers (not Uche, who's been very
clear on his thinking) object as much to Sexton's thematic taste as they do
to her technique.  Nothing wrong with making that argument, I think so long
as we're clear on the blurring of content with style.




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Mon May 23 12:40:26 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:40:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,
	there I am.  (With Death.)
Message-ID: <200505231640.j4NGeXwd005713@mail2.atl.registeredsite.com>

9


The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With 
Death.)  

Wow!  I?m spinnin?.  

Bob said:  

?It contains texts you have to read in order to appreciate it so has to be a 
form of literature, it seems to me.?  


And Robin said:

?Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in Arcadia
Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar.  Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un
pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a painting,
not a poem.  And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple
typographical images, words even.?  


About ?Et in Arcadia ego,? may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky, 
Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about ?Ceci n?est pas une 
pipe,? may I suggest Foucault?s little book, This Is Not a Pipe.  And 
certainly I realize many if not most of you are familiar with these.  I mention 
them because they have been, and remain, very helpful for me.  Especially 
the Panofsky.  When I wrote that:  

?I believe that we will find that visual poetry is poetry only in an analogous 
sense (only in certain very restricted respects), and that once this is 
understood it will be seen that all pictorial art (even nonrepresentational art) 
can then be claimed to be a form of poetry (as it is already claimed to be a 
form of story-telling).?  

When I wrote this I had Panofsky in mind.  And that, in my opinion, certain 
works (if not most or all) of vis-po seem to me to be asking to be read as 
though they were works of art (pictorial, representational, even non-
representational) and especially as in the sense we fine in the case of 
symbolic art (as with symbolist art, symbolist painting) -- but as though vis-
po has become, or does present, a sort of allegory.  This is not exactly to say 
that in the case of vis-po we see a certain death of poetry, only poetry as in a 
sort of ?abbreviated? state or condition or incarnation (perhaps it?s a matter 
of endowment).  Poetry in Arcadia?  No,. not here, not in vis-po.  


In my opinion, I see Bob?s eary mathemaku work as very much having its 
roots in concrete poetry, even some of the pieces collected in his Doing 
Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made with 
scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed ?by hand.?  I have no 
problem with concrete poetry that has not been composed entirely on the 
typewriter, that is to say that has some elements grafted or pasted into it.  It 
was anyone?s guess where the mathemaku were going to go, whether they 
were going to be strictly an exploration of mathematical poetry (into ?long 
division?) or whether they were going to remain strictly in the ?realm? of 
concrete poetry and to obey the grammar of concrete poetry (a grammar that 
I see as existing really, and that is different from the grammar of vis-po, and 
that perhaps we ought to discuss as to determine the validity of my view and 
indeed the validity and efficacy of such a grammar).  I find -- and this is not 
a cop-out, please, I think it?s really there -- that with the mathemaku work 
Bob did not explore and demonstrate the grammar of mathematical poetry 
(say, to the degree that anyone could pick up on that grammar and write a 
mathematical poem, which would certainly, due to the use of mathematical 
symbols, be a sort of concrete poetry -- just picture, if you will, the ?equals 
sign,? which is made up of two parallel lines of equal length, and which 
SHOW you, signal to you a certain outcome is ahead . . . I think here is an 
instance of what would be ?the grammar of the concrete,? and if I?m at all 
correct then it must be said that Bob knew this and understood it and was 
working with it), but instead developed the grammar of these early works 
away from concrete poetry and into vis-po, into vis-po where his 
mathematical symbols, if they function at all, function in an allegorical sense 
-- that is to say their function is not strictly mathematical but . . . they serve a 
sort of symbolical narration, parallel and parable.  Following Bob?s 
mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge 
from and out of the concrete into vis-po.  The more recent works done in 
PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po and, 
indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of digital 
art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete, 
which to say they?ve taken on a whole other pedigree).  And I have to ask, 
just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it a 
letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as ?poetry??  (Maybe 
?po? is more than just convenient, maybe it?s downright appropriate.)  

The works of August Highland. . . .  They contain elements of language, 
even sentence fragments. . . .  

I have been trying to locate the common denominator in all these works.  

There are considerations as to purpose and procedure.  Consider the 
procedures of Jukka-Pekka Kervinen.  The generation of his text.  The 
series of procedurals that go into the composition of his works.  I don?t feel 
comfortable calling them ?hybrid? or ?multi-task? or ?multi-media.?  The 
sum is greater than its parts -- I don?t feel comfortable referring to that sum 
as ?visual poetry.?  I wrote of Jukka?s works (at the eratio blog-auxiliary for 
Thursday, June 3, 2004) that they were ?aper?us,? of his composition that it 
was ?an aper?u of language-in-eideos, of language in ideal form, of 
grammata that is in abstractus.?  (I am taking into consideration his 
procedurals).  

But I think this stands for Highland as well, in that his language is not . . . 
?literal? but symbolic, that his language is ?ideal.?  And I see this as the case 
with Bob?s mathemaku, and especially with his more recent PintShop 
works. . . .  

The operative phrase (and the common denominator) for me, in these works, 
is ?language in eidos.?  Perhaps these works are commenting on, if not 
SHOWING, relationality as such. . . .  


Mairead provides some fine details, and I make no exception to these at all.  
There?s a book that I?ve been recommending every chance I get.  It?s The 
World in Time and Space, published by Talisman House.  It?s a collection of 
essays and includes a few on media and on digital poetics, ?digital media as 
writing.?  I find this collection very helpful and a good resource, a good 
point of orientaion.    


Mairead says:


?Also, much contemporary Visual Poetry is very definitely poetry, or 
presenting itself as poetry, or working within the economy of poetry.  I'm 
thinking of Brian Kim Stefans, John Cayley, and also of a recent visit I 
made to the Cave at Brown University to see work by students graduating 
from the electronic writing program there.  This year's and last year's Visual 
Poetry exhibition at Harvard included work by people known primarily as 
poets.?  


Yes, I?m familiar with the exhibitions at Harvard.  It was surprising to see a 
work by Nick Piombino in there, who I think of as a poet primarily (the 
psychologist notwithstanding) but who I also know to have an excellent eye 
and, as it happens, who was kind enough to allow me some pages from his 
Free Fall photocollage novel.  Have a look:


http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/nick_piombino.html




Nick?s work with Greek language immediately struck me, not as a work of 
vis-po, but a fine work of art, period.  And I immediately thought, ?vis-po is 
coming to mean and to include anything!?  Indeed, it was surprising to see 
Denise Duhamel among the contributors.  I did not know she did vis-po.  
And -- I may be mistaken -- the piece she had there did not seem to me to be 
vis-po at all.  But perhaps I did not see all that she contributed.  I was not 
there but saw the exhibition online.  

Now some folks argue that poetry has become diluted by all the ?various? 
types of poetry being perpetrated today.  What if the vis-po folks put down 
their foot and said wait a minute, we have certain standards!?  

I suppose it depends on the curator, on who was selecting the entries.  I 
would put my money on Scott Helmes or on Geof Huth or on Bob 
Grumman or on Karl Young.  

To say that much contemporary visual poetry is very definitely poetry. . . .  I 
think it more correct, or safer, to say that much visual poetry is presenting 
itself as poetry and working within the economy of poetry.  There?s no 
doubt about that.  But as to whether it is ?definitely poetry,? well, that?s the 
controversy.  In what sense is it poetry.  In what sense does it participate in 
poetry.  What does poetry do, and does the poetry in vis-po do that. . . .  

I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.  And 
as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they ?act? 
accordingly.  




Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  


9

.




From mbyrne at risd.edu  Mon May 23 13:04:19 2005
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:04:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
	Arcadia, there I am.  (With Death.)
Message-ID: <s291d4f0.084@risd.edu>

A poem not strictly relevant but in sympathy with our times & thinking with admiration of Paul Ricoeur.

CATEGORIES

I'm not sure what is my country.  I not sure what is my book.  If book print-on-demand where publisher?  Met on Web.  Have passport though.  Lost property.  Claim me.  What is chapbook if one poem only?  Is festival annual journal or periodical?  Will APR slay / heap contempt?  What say -- well you know the/us poets/how/just getting/then sneer?  Ruined chances forever.  Help.  But what is poems online and why do publish book first then poems?  Or anthologize?  Ezine publishes poems: only those not in ebook due next.  Am I Irish poet?  Is Australian webzine Australian or Web or zine?  How to know.  Whom to ask.  Google?  Google?  

Mairead

>>> editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com 05/23/05 12:40 PM >>>
9


The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With 
Death.)  

Wow!  I'm spinnin'.  

Bob said:  

"It contains texts you have to read in order to appreciate it so has to be a 
form of literature, it seems to me."  


And Robin said:

"Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in Arcadia
Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar.  Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un
pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a painting,
not a poem.  And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple
typographical images, words even."  


About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky, 
Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une 
pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.  And 
certainly I realize many if not most of you are familiar with these.  I mention 
them because they have been, and remain, very helpful for me.  Especially 
the Panofsky.  When I wrote that:  

"I believe that we will find that visual poetry is poetry only in an analogous 
sense (only in certain very restricted respects), and that once this is 
understood it will be seen that all pictorial art (even nonrepresentational art) 
can then be claimed to be a form of poetry (as it is already claimed to be a 
form of story-telling)."  

When I wrote this I had Panofsky in mind.  And that, in my opinion, certain 
works (if not most or all) of vis-po seem to me to be asking to be read as 
though they were works of art (pictorial, representational, even non-
representational) and especially as in the sense we fine in the case of 
symbolic art (as with symbolist art, symbolist painting) -- but as though vis-
po has become, or does present, a sort of allegory.  This is not exactly to say 
that in the case of vis-po we see a certain death of poetry, only poetry as in a 
sort of "abbreviated" state or condition or incarnation (perhaps it's a matter 
of endowment).  Poetry in Arcadia?  No,. not here, not in vis-po.  


In my opinion, I see Bob's eary mathemaku work as very much having its 
roots in concrete poetry, even some of the pieces collected in his Doing 
Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made with 
scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed "by hand."  I have no 
problem with concrete poetry that has not been composed entirely on the 
typewriter, that is to say that has some elements grafted or pasted into it.  It 
was anyone's guess where the mathemaku were going to go, whether they 
were going to be strictly an exploration of mathematical poetry (into "long 
division") or whether they were going to remain strictly in the "realm" of 
concrete poetry and to obey the grammar of concrete poetry (a grammar that 
I see as existing really, and that is different from the grammar of vis-po, and 
that perhaps we ought to discuss as to determine the validity of my view and 
indeed the validity and efficacy of such a grammar).  I find -- and this is not 
a cop-out, please, I think it's really there -- that with the mathemaku work 
Bob did not explore and demonstrate the grammar of mathematical poetry 
(say, to the degree that anyone could pick up on that grammar and write a 
mathematical poem, which would certainly, due to the use of mathematical 
symbols, be a sort of concrete poetry -- just picture, if you will, the "equals 
sign," which is made up of two parallel lines of equal length, and which 
SHOW you, signal to you a certain outcome is ahead . . . I think here is an 
instance of what would be "the grammar of the concrete," and if I'm at all 
correct then it must be said that Bob knew this and understood it and was 
working with it), but instead developed the grammar of these early works 
away from concrete poetry and into vis-po, into vis-po where his 
mathematical symbols, if they function at all, function in an allegorical sense 
-- that is to say their function is not strictly mathematical but . . . they serve a 
sort of symbolical narration, parallel and parable.  Following Bob's 
mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge 
from and out of the concrete into vis-po.  The more recent works done in 
PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po and, 
indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of digital 
art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete, 
which to say they've taken on a whole other pedigree).  And I have to ask, 
just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it a 
letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?  (Maybe 
"po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)  

The works of August Highland. . . .  They contain elements of language, 
even sentence fragments. . . .  

I have been trying to locate the common denominator in all these works.  

There are considerations as to purpose and procedure.  Consider the 
procedures of Jukka-Pekka Kervinen.  The generation of his text.  The 
series of procedurals that go into the composition of his works.  I don't feel 
comfortable calling them "hybrid" or "multi-task" or "multi-media."  The 
sum is greater than its parts -- I don't feel comfortable referring to that sum 
as "visual poetry."  I wrote of Jukka's works (at the eratio blog-auxiliary for 
Thursday, June 3, 2004) that they were "aper?us," of his composition that it 
was "an aper?u of language-in-eideos, of language in ideal form, of 
grammata that is in abstractus."  (I am taking into consideration his 
procedurals).  

But I think this stands for Highland as well, in that his language is not . . . 
"literal" but symbolic, that his language is "ideal."  And I see this as the case 
with Bob's mathemaku, and especially with his more recent PintShop 
works. . . .  

The operative phrase (and the common denominator) for me, in these works, 
is "language in eidos."  Perhaps these works are commenting on, if not 
SHOWING, relationality as such. . . .  


Mairead provides some fine details, and I make no exception to these at all.  
There's a book that I've been recommending every chance I get.  It's The 
World in Time and Space, published by Talisman House.  It's a collection of 
essays and includes a few on media and on digital poetics, "digital media as 
writing."  I find this collection very helpful and a good resource, a good 
point of orientaion.    


Mairead says:


"Also, much contemporary Visual Poetry is very definitely poetry, or 
presenting itself as poetry, or working within the economy of poetry.  I'm 
thinking of Brian Kim Stefans, John Cayley, and also of a recent visit I 
made to the Cave at Brown University to see work by students graduating 
from the electronic writing program there.  This year's and last year's Visual 
Poetry exhibition at Harvard included work by people known primarily as 
poets."  


Yes, I'm familiar with the exhibitions at Harvard.  It was surprising to see a 
work by Nick Piombino in there, who I think of as a poet primarily (the 
psychologist notwithstanding) but who I also know to have an excellent eye 
and, as it happens, who was kind enough to allow me some pages from his 
Free Fall photocollage novel.  Have a look:


http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/nick_piombino.html




Nick's work with Greek language immediately struck me, not as a work of 
vis-po, but a fine work of art, period.  And I immediately thought, "vis-po is 
coming to mean and to include anything!"  Indeed, it was surprising to see 
Denise Duhamel among the contributors.  I did not know she did vis-po.  
And -- I may be mistaken -- the piece she had there did not seem to me to be 
vis-po at all.  But perhaps I did not see all that she contributed.  I was not 
there but saw the exhibition online.  

Now some folks argue that poetry has become diluted by all the "various" 
types of poetry being perpetrated today.  What if the vis-po folks put down 
their foot and said wait a minute, we have certain standards!?  

I suppose it depends on the curator, on who was selecting the entries.  I 
would put my money on Scott Helmes or on Geof Huth or on Bob 
Grumman or on Karl Young.  

To say that much contemporary visual poetry is very definitely poetry. . . .  I 
think it more correct, or safer, to say that much visual poetry is presenting 
itself as poetry and working within the economy of poetry.  There's no 
doubt about that.  But as to whether it is "definitely poetry," well, that's the 
controversy.  In what sense is it poetry.  In what sense does it participate in 
poetry.  What does poetry do, and does the poetry in vis-po do that. . . .  

I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.  And 
as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act" 
accordingly.  




Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  


9

.


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May 23 13:10:44 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 18:10:44 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,
	there I am.  (With Death.)
References: <200505231640.j4NGeXwd005713@mail2.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <025b01c55fba$5be669f0$09042cd9@Robin>

> The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> Death.)

Et in Arcadia Ego -- "Even in Arcadia, there I, Death, am," Gregory?  Was
the (With Death) an add-on to make the link to visual poetry?

> About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky,
> Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une
> pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.

I'd concur with Gregory's pointing to Panofsky -- made a big impact on me
years ago [in a different context] too, and behind my comments.  To my
shame, I've the Foucault on my shelves, but haven't yet read it.

{Have you seen David Sylvester's books on Magritte, Gregory?  Utter magic.}

[SNIPPING DRASTICALLY]

> And I have to ask,
> just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it
a
> letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
(Maybe
> "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)

Concur with Gregory (obviously).

"po" as truncated poetry?

[ANOTHER DRASTIC SNIP]

> I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.  And
> as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act"
> accordingly.

I was taken by Bob's comment (if I'm not mis-paraphrasing him) that [the
grammar of] strict concrete poetry involved playing by the Brazilian Rules.
That made sense to me.

(Sorry to cherrypick bits of your post to reply to, Gregory -- I'm in the
midst of packing, and In Haste.)

        The Stone Dormouse.




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon May 23 06:10:30 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 05:10:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net>
Message-ID: <BEB71646.9180%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

           A Worm

 


Held in suspended animation

As in a tale by Arthur Clarke,

We whirl beyond the final station

Into the interstellar dark,

 

Trusting our software to maintain

Our course through boundless tracks of night

Then warm and wake each dormant brain

Into otherworldly light.

 

Or else we?ll speed through hyperspace

On theme-park ships with tropic air.

However humans interface

Or merge our software and wetware,

 

Some hidden glitch coiled in our code

Will spread subversion like a worm

And, crashing systems for a joke,

Bring our odysseys to term.


Paul Lake





On 5/22/05 9:28 AM, "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu> wrote:

> At 06:23 PM 5/20/2005 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
>> Klaatu barada nicto.
> 
> ...in reply to Finnegan, who wrote
> 
> Now that Star Wars is again splashing
>> all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
>> that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
>> of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
>> etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
> 
> ...which led me first to the fanciful thought that someone
> ought to write a blues or lament for great robots:
> Gort, Robbie, Marvin...
> 
> ...which led to a more "serious" question: Has anyone
> written any poetry (worth re-reading) about science-fiction
> issues, e.g., about alien contact, or about what one
> might experience in orbit or in space? I can think
> of at least a few novels that are not "merely" in the
> science fiction genre, e.g., Golding's _The Inheritors_
> and Chinghiz Aitmatov's _The Day Lasts More Than
> a Hundred Years_, but I am ignorant about any
> comparable works of poetry (although "You, Andrew
> Marvell" was eerily prescient about an earth-orbit
> perspective).
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Richard W. Wilsnack
> rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Mon May 23 13:43:54 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:43:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,
	there I am (With Death.)  
Message-ID: <200505231744.j4NHi0UJ011224@mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>



The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With 
Death.)

Robin, I have the catalogue from the South Bank Centre exhibition, which 
was selected by David Sylvester.  The text (and there?s plenty of it) is by 
Sarah Whifield.  

The ?(With Death.)? was just an allusion to the skull that seems to appear in 
the various depictions of ?Et in Arcadia ego.?  Death is the doorway to 
Arcadia.  Lest we forget.  (But how could we?)  

Playing by the Brazilian rules.  I have no problem with this, but we must 
take into consideration ALL the rules, from everywhere, if we are to find a 
common grammar, no?  We must take into consideration ALL the 
manifestoes (even if we have to step on some).  

Yes, Robin, "there I, Death, am."  And don't we know it!  But not poetry.  
She lives!  (And she lives in Arcadia!  With the lovers!)  


Cherrypick all you want.  Watch out for pits!  (I got loads of pits!)  


Robin wrote:

Et in Arcadia Ego -- "Even in Arcadia, there I, Death, am," Gregory?  Was
the (With Death) an add-on to make the link to visual poetry?

> About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky,
> Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une
> pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.

I'd concur with Gregory's pointing to Panofsky -- made a big impact on me
years ago [in a different context] too, and behind my comments.  To my
shame, I've the Foucault on my shelves, but haven't yet read it.

{Have you seen David Sylvester's books on Magritte, Gregory?  Utter 
magic.}

[SNIPPING DRASTICALLY]

> And I have to ask,
> just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it
a
> letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
(Maybe
> "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)

Concur with Gregory (obviously).

"po" as truncated poetry?

[ANOTHER DRASTIC SNIP]

> I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.  
And
> as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act"
> accordingly.

I was taken by Bob's comment (if I'm not mis-paraphrasing him) that [the
grammar of] strict concrete poetry involved playing by the Brazilian Rules.
That made sense to me.

(Sorry to cherrypick bits of your post to reply to, Gregory -- I'm in the
midst of packing, and In Haste.)

        The Stone Dormouse.


Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino


9



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May 23 14:57:15 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:57:15 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,
	there I am (With Death.)  
References: <200505231744.j4NHi0UJ011224@mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <02bc01c55fc9$3cef5430$09042cd9@Robin>

Gregory:

> The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> Death.)
>
> Robin, I have the catalogue from the South Bank Centre exhibition, which
> was selected by David Sylvester.  The text (and there's plenty of it) is
by
> Sarah Whifield.

That I don't know, though it sounds cool -- I saw Syvester's 4 vol.
catalogue raisonne once, but ... Too expensive (cripplingly so) and not
enough purty lil' pictoors for me.

(Actually, I've a feeling I might have been there, at the SB exhibition that
is, and forgotten all about it.  What year was it, Gregory?)

What I have is Sylvester's 1992 offshoot from the cat rais -- 345 pages,
made for the General Public (twits like me), text and image selection both
by Sylvester.  Absolutely scrumptious, I think the most so of any of the
books on Magritte.

(Should I read the Foucault?  I like both him and Magritte, but I can't
quite work out how to put them together in my head.  Help if I read the
book, admittedly.  But why violate a virgin ignorance?)

Incidentally, was it Panofsky who retails the comment that George IV made to
Samuel Johnson about this?  Could look it up, I suppose, but I'm sure you'll
remember and remind me and save me the trouble ...  <g>

> The "(With Death.)" was just an allusion to the skull that seems to appear
in
> the various depictions of "Et in Arcadia ego."  Death is the doorway to
> Arcadia.  Lest we forget.  (But how could we?)

"Death is the doorway to Arcadia" -- um ... Death as an intrusion in
Arcadia, or always present there, I'd see it more as.

I'd always taken the skull (and we're not talking about any specific
painting are we?) as a synonym for Death Himself, and implicitly the Speaker
of the Words to the uncomprehending satyres.

Ach -- ought to reread Panofsky -- been more years than I care to admit
since I last did, and in quite another context.  (The iconography of
Platonic imagery in Renaissance painting, yet.)

> Playing by the Brazilian rules.  I have no problem with this, but we must
> take into consideration ALL the rules, from everywhere, if we are to find
a
> common grammar, no?  We must take into consideration ALL the
> manifestoes (even if we have to step on some).

Right.  But I think you (and Bob?) are trying for some sort of Universal
Field Theory of concrete/visual poetry -- all I want is an explanation of
what was happening in Glasgow in the sixties -- a much more modest Newtonian
project.

> Yes, Robin, "there I, Death, am."  And don't we know it!  But not poetry.
> She lives!  (And she lives in Arcadia!  With the lovers!)

Weeel, that's yet *another* issue ...

        "Death is the mother of beauty," as some American poet whose name I
can't quite call to mind off-hand once said.

        (God, that was a good poem!!!)

> Cherrypick all you want.  Watch out for pits!  (I got loads of pits!)

K, I'll watch for them -- got few enough teeth left that I can afford to
lose one biting on your pits.

        "Show me a cherry / Without any stone"

Robin




From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Mon May 23 16:36:51 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:36:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,
	there I am. (With Death.)
Message-ID: <200505232036.j4NKapsT016292@mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>

9


Robin, the South Bank Centre show was at The Hayward Gallery 21 May 
to 2 August, 1992.  

Yes, read the Foucault.  They go together very well.  It's a page turner!  

Yes, it was George III.  That episode is here in Panofsky.  I have the book 
before me.  Chapter 7 starts off with it.    

"But I think you (and Bob?) are trying for some sort of Universal
Field Theory of concrete/visual poetry."  

As much as I like to write about Bob's work, and to needle him generally, I 
cannot say we are exactly following parallel paths.  I want to find a grammar 
for concrete poetry, and one for vis-po.  As for "the lessons of concrete 
poetry," this is actually quite difficult.  I do not want to parrot the 
manifestoes (take them into consideration yes, of course, but not to simply 
take them as gospel).  I prefer to go by the works (and what they tell me).   
And of these "lessons," what and which and how to apply to poetry, and is 
it worth it. . . .  

"But why violate a virgin ignorance?"  

Tempting.  Very tempting. . . .  


Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino


9

.  


Gregory:

> The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> Death.)
>
> Robin, I have the catalogue from the South Bank Centre exhibition, which
> was selected by David Sylvester.  The text (and there's plenty of it) is
by
> Sarah Whifield.

That I don't know, though it sounds cool -- I saw Syvester's 4 vol.
catalogue raisonne once, but ... Too expensive (cripplingly so) and not
enough purty lil' pictoors for me.

(Actually, I've a feeling I might have been there, at the SB exhibition that
is, and forgotten all about it.  What year was it, Gregory?)

What I have is Sylvester's 1992 offshoot from the cat rais -- 345 pages,
made for the General Public (twits like me), text and image selection both
by Sylvester.  Absolutely scrumptious, I think the most so of any of the
books on Magritte.

(Should I read the Foucault?  I like both him and Magritte, but I can't
quite work out how to put them together in my head.  Help if I read the
book, admittedly.  But why violate a virgin ignorance?)

Incidentally, was it Panofsky who retails the comment that George IV made 
to
Samuel Johnson about this?  Could look it up, I suppose, but I'm sure you'll
remember and remind me and save me the trouble ...  <g>

> The "(With Death.)" was just an allusion to the skull that seems to appear
in
> the various depictions of "Et in Arcadia ego."  Death is the doorway to
> Arcadia.  Lest we forget.  (But how could we?)

"Death is the doorway to Arcadia" -- um ... Death as an intrusion in
Arcadia, or always present there, I'd see it more as.

I'd always taken the skull (and we're not talking about any specific
painting are we?) as a synonym for Death Himself, and implicitly the 
Speaker
of the Words to the uncomprehending satyres.

Ach -- ought to reread Panofsky -- been more years than I care to admit
since I last did, and in quite another context.  (The iconography of
Platonic imagery in Renaissance painting, yet.)

> Playing by the Brazilian rules.  I have no problem with this, but we must
> take into consideration ALL the rules, from everywhere, if we are to find
a
> common grammar, no?  We must take into consideration ALL the
> manifestoes (even if we have to step on some).

Right.  But I think you (and Bob?) are trying for some sort of Universal
Field Theory of concrete/visual poetry -- all I want is an explanation of
what was happening in Glasgow in the sixties -- a much more modest 
Newtonian
project.

> Yes, Robin, "there I, Death, am."  And don't we know it!  But not poetry.
> She lives!  (And she lives in Arcadia!  With the lovers!)

Weeel, that's yet *another* issue ...

        "Death is the mother of beauty," as some American poet whose name I
can't quite call to mind off-hand once said.

        (God, that was a good poem!!!)

> Cherrypick all you want.  Watch out for pits!  (I got loads of pits!)

K, I'll watch for them -- got few enough teeth left that I can afford to
lose one biting on your pits.

        "Show me a cherry / Without any stone"

Robin






From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon May 23 16:39:24 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:39:24 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,
	there I am (With Death.)  
References: <200505231744.j4NHi0UJ011224@mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <008501c55fd7$825ae710$14d73152@ANNY>

I am curious, how would you define this?

http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm

from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.

The link is from the following site to which I just got and that promises much more:
http://www.eliterature.org/

Electronic Literature Organization
To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of literature in electronic media.


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon May 23 16:52:07 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:52:07 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,
	there I am (With Death.)  
References: <200505231744.j4NHi0UJ011224@mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>
	<008501c55fd7$825ae710$14d73152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <00a101c55fd9$48886f10$14d73152@ANNY>

This might be the easiest way to get to the _poetry_ part:
http://directory.eliterature.org/browse.php?rectype=works


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,there I am (With Death.) 


  I am curious, how would you define this?

  http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm

  from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
  by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.

  The link is from the following site to which I just got and that promises much more:
  http://www.eliterature.org/

  Electronic Literature Organization
  To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of literature in electronic media.


  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May 23 17:08:25 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:08:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,
	there I am (With Death.)  
References: <200505231744.j4NHi0UJ011224@mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>
	<008501c55fd7$825ae710$14d73152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <006501c55fdb$8fb7c870$88b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I am curious, how would you define this?

  http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm

  I'd call it an animated visual poem.  I like it.  Contrast of the knowledge in a sentence versus real knowledge, which is one fast letter at a time.

  --Bob

  from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
  by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.

  The link is from the following site to which I just got and that promises much more:
  http://www.eliterature.org/

  Electronic Literature Organization
  To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of literature in electronic media.


  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon May 23 17:12:18 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:12:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] My concept of poetry
Message-ID: <00a801c55fdc$1a66b670$14d73152@ANNY>

Henry Gould on his blog defined some of what I think:
http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com/


Poets should not have careers. 

Poets should not think about audiences.

Poets should be like scientists or artists... except that scientists & artists are too careerist as well.

My School of Poetry maintains the following rubrics: 

1. Poetry is a form of mysterious oracular speech akin to glossolalia.

2. Poetry is the pure expression of beauty & truth - so pure, perfect & harmonious that it reaches the edge of human speech & touches on the seraphic.

3. Poetry illuminates in the same way that all perfect art suddenly illuminates the conceptual and affective inner world with its perfect rightness.

4. There are many secondary forms of poetry, but they all subsist under the sanction of this perfect, "primary" poetry.

5. Poetry cannot be taught, bought or sold. It can only be discovered & apprehended. Good luck.
posted by Henry Gould 11:37 AM 



I think that by 
Poets should not have careers, Gould means : should not have careers in poetry, and here I am with him. And also Jodorowsky already stated this.


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From mbyrne at risd.edu  Mon May 23 17:19:31 2005
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:19:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
	Arcadia, there I am (With Death.) 
Message-ID: <s29210bf.099@risd.edu>

That's very funny Anny.  As far as I'm concerned anything Brian does is poetry.
This must be a tribute to Robert Creeley, unsentimental let's say.
The funny thing is it reminds me of Creeley's "Lackawanna Lives," recorded with his son Will, described as "inexplicable beat box/sad rap," though Brian's piece is far from laid back or rhythmic.  The white space in this case may be Brian's gesture in making the piece: the emotion lies outside but it's there.  Well I'm beginning to get pretentious.
Mairead

>>> anny.ballardini at tin.it 05/23/05 4:52 PM >>>
This might be the easiest way to get to the _poetry_ part:
http://directory.eliterature.org/browse.php?rectype=works


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views 
  Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,there I am (With Death.) 


  I am curious, how would you define this?

  http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm

  from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
  by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.

  The link is from the following site to which I just got and that promises much more:
  http://www.eliterature.org/

  Electronic Literature Organization
  To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of literature in electronic media.


  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May 23 17:22:02 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:22:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,
	there I am. (With Death.)
References: <200505232036.j4NKapsT016292@mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <035001c55fdd$76a43010$09042cd9@Robin>

> Robin, the South Bank Centre show was at The Hayward Gallery 21 May
> to 2 August, 1992.

Thanks, Gregory.  No, I wouldn't have seen it in that case.  I'd left London
by then, so I must be thinking of something else.  Or maybe I went back for
a day?

Premature Alzheimer's, me.

> Yes, read the Foucault.  They go together very well.  It's a page turner!

K, will do -- when I can find it again.  Thought it was nestling beside a
small book on Delvaux on my shelves, but no ...  always was difficult to pin
Foucault down.

> Yes, it was George III.  That episode is here in Panofsky.  I have the
book
> before me.  Chapter 7 starts off with it.

Ta!!

Must go pack.  Really.  Truly.  Honestly.

Robin




From cc at opus0.com  Mon May 23 17:35:49 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:35:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Concrete / Visual
In-Reply-To: <200505210102.j4L12KRe015712@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJEEHFCDAA.cc@opus0.com>

Discussion between Gregory/Robin/Mairead is almost the first interesting
thread on vis/concrete poetry I've seen on new-po. (maybe because it's a
text only list...?hehe)  ee cummings _Collected Poems_ was the first po book
I read until the pages fell out.  In music school, everyone wrote pieces
with texts by ee.  When we first heard Robert Erickson's piece _The Idea of
Order At Key West_, we thought he was a fogie.  Oh as we were young and easy
in the mercy of his means...!  Now I cannot find a line in ee better than
this: "She sang beyond the genius of the sea."  Or really, almost any line
in that poem.  My apologies, Mr. Erickson.  Though I don't forgive you (yet)
for your comments on my 2nd string quartet.  A machine, indeed!  <--Joke for
dead person.  Dead person I'm currently reading: the Marquis de Sade.  No
connection I know between these dead persons.


> From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete / Visual / Sexton

> Concrete / Visual / Sexton
>
> Thank you, Robin.  And thank you for welcoming me to the list, I
> really do
> appreciate it.
>
> Of course I was listening (and lurking), and Im sure (well, not
> entirely)
> there were and are others (who were listening, if not lurking).
> And Im sure
> they were, like myself, fascinated.
>
> You know in that essay that I quote from in my essay, the one by Rosmarie
> Waldrop, she gives good indication of where to locate concrete
> poetry.  But
> she doesnt say where the name concrete came from.  I think this is
> important if we are to locate the break in continuity (the very
> beginnings of
> that break) with poetry.  That there is a continuity between poetry and
> concrete poetry, I dont think anyone will object to -- after
> all, the carmen
> figuratum (the shape or figure poem, also called the pattern
> or, later, the
> typewriter poem) was always available to the poet, should he be
> so moved
> to express himself in that form.  I think the term concrete
> came from,
> and was appropriated from, concrete art.  The term concrete art was
> invented by Theo van Doesburg in 1930 to refer to abstract art that was
> based not in nature but in geometry and the formal properties of
> art itself.
> The underlying idea was that an artwork has value as an
> independent object,
> even if it doesnt illuminate social concerns or express an
> artists emotions.
> This is, I think, what Waldrop is talking about.  My next point
> is that while
> we have to take into consideration concrete poetrys pedigree in
> poetry (a
> pedigree that I think visual poetry is forsaking, if not outright
> dispossessing itself of), given the above about the term
> concrete, we also
> must acknowledge its other pedigree, which is found, I say, in
> concrete art.
>
> So there are two rather distinct pedigrees here vying for
> predominance.  On
> the one hand we have poetry, and on the other, art.  I think if
> we are to locate
> a break in the continuity between concrete poetry and visual poetry, we
> might do very well to look here, and we will see, I think, that
> art has taken
> predominance.  What remains of poetry is the use of elements of language
> (letters, words, text -- we can already see in the concrete
> poetry of the fifties
> and sixties the use of elements of language for graphic rather
> than poetic or
> semantic purposes), but, as I just said, not for poetic or
> semantic purposes,
> but for graphic or pictorial or, even, symbolic purposes.  This is, in my
> opinion, why visual poetry no longer bears any (or slight)
> resemblance to
> poetry, notwithstanding its employment of elements of language.
>
> When you mentioned strict typographical and enhanced typographical, I
> felt you were very close to seeing what, in my judgment, anyway,
> is the case
> -- so I felt I had to chime in with my opinion.  The enhanced
> typographical
> elements are one station on the way to what visual poetry is
> today. . . .
>
> By the way, here is the url to a concrete poem I wrote.  Maybe
> take a look?
>
> http://xpressed.freezope.org/xstream/issue2/gfg.jpg
>
> In this poem I try to depict motion, and (depending on the size of your
> screen) this is seen in the air bubbles rising from someones
> corpse at the
> bottom of the sea.  You should see the motion as you scroll down the
> screen. . . .  Its been said about this poem (that anxiety of
> influence thing)
> that I am picturing Bob Grumman dead, but thats not true (or
> else it wasnt
> true at the time I wrote it).  If youre looking at this on a
> cinema screen (as I
> am) try reducing the size of the screen.  (I wrote it for a small
> laptop-size
> screen.)
>
> The discussion over Sexton had me looking in my copy of her Complete
> Poems.  And in there, in the foreword by Maxine Kumin, the subject of the
> formal elements in Sextons poetry is addressed.  And it seems Sexton was
> indeed concerned about the formal elements of her poetry.  There is also
> consideration as to what accounted for her incredible popularity.  And it
> seems it was not on account of any formal elements in her poems,
> or, rather,
> it was on account of her subject matter (as everybody here, I
> think, realizes).
> Kumin writes:
>
> Women poets in particular owe a debt to Anne Sexton, who broke new
> ground, shattered taboos, and endured a barrage of attacks along the way
> because of the flamboyance of her subject matter, which, twenty
> years later,
> seems far less daring.  She wrote openly about menstruation, abortion,
> masturbation, incest, adultery, and drug addiction at a time when the
> proprieties embraced none of these as proper topics for poetry.
>
> And finally, before I wear out my welcome, Ill chime in on
> Sexton v. Plath.
> Both Sexton and Plath have distinctive early works and later
> works.  Sexton
> wrote more than Plath.  The Awful Rowing (1975) is later Sexton (her last
> volume before her death?).  Both poets, when you get to their
> later works,
> are by now in what would be complete control of their craft (albeit, who
> knows about Plath -- and who knows, if she had lived, what her work
> would have become?).  Plath had Ted Hughes to vie with (no small
> matter).
> I think Hughes was an awesome poet, in complete control of the language.
> Perfectly masculine, a force of nature.  All Sexton had were her
> ills (I almost
> said, her companionable ills).  And while her ills were a force
> of nature
> too, I think they eventually got the better of her:
>
> Why shouldnt I pull down my pants
> and moon at the executioner
> as well as paste raisins on my breasts?
> Why shouldnt I pull down my pants
> and show my little cunny to Tom
> and Albert?  They wee-wee funny.
> I wee-wee like a squaw.
> I have ink but no pen, still
> I dream that I can piss in Gods eye.
> I dream Im a boy with a zipper.
> Its so practical, la de dah.
>
> from HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME
> by Anne Sexton
>
>
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
> 9
>
>





From tad at opus40.org  Mon May 23 19:26:16 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:26:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
References: <e1.13d1e3c4.2fbfaae2@aol.com><5.2.1.1.0.20050522090217.010b4950@cyrus.undsmhs.net><009901c55edb$c9090ef0$09042cd9@Robin><1116833208.429185b82b3da@webmail.ukonline.net><006201c55f81$ada70030$5ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002501c55f82$1d6babf0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<002801c55f86$03065450$58ec3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <001501c55fee$d7d569b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Anny - I'm teaching teenagers for the first time this spring, and loving it.

And thanks.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?


>
> I teach teenagers (mainly, besides my adults' courses)! This is a great 
> poem Tad, it depicts some perfectly,
>
> take care, Anny
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 12:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
>
>
>> Here's one.
>>
>>
>> THREE WOMEN
>>
>>
>>
>> Three women meet and tell each other their stories.
>>
>> They are amazed at the similarities. Each is in her twenties,
>>
>> skinny, with bones for hips; each has sunken eyes,
>>
>> hair spiky on top, wispy down her neck.
>>
>> Each wears a stud in her navel, and all three
>> navels are visible, below ratty T-shirts, above
>>
>> the frayed waistbands of blue jeans.
>>
>>
>>
>> Each has, above her jutting left pelvic bone,
>>
>> a discoloration. Each, in turn, tugs down on
>>
>> a belt loop, till it shows purple, the shape of
>>
>> an archipelago, more like a birthmark
>>
>> than a bruise, but each confesses
>>
>> the discoloration is recent.
>>
>>
>>
>> To get to the meat of it, each
>>
>> of these women has had sex with aliens.
>>
>> Apparently they are the aliens' type,
>>
>> though they distrust each other, and would acknowledge no likeness.
>>
>>
>>
>> Each wonders if the others are holding back secrets.
>>
>> There should be more, each thinks, than this purple spot
>>
>> and a burning, similar to a yeast infection
>>
>> except for the pulsing, and a faint hum-
>>
>> a guy sitting hear them, staring into his beer, thinks
>>
>> he hears a chromatic chord, rising and falling,
>> though where it comes from, he would not hazard a guess.
>>
>>
>> Tad Richards
>> www.opus40.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon May 23 20:11:10 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:11:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,
	there I am.  (With Death.)
References: <200505231640.j4NGeXwd005713@mail2.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <00d001c55ff5$17652ce0$88b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> In my opinion, I see Bob's early mathemaku work as very much having its
> roots in concrete poetry,

No time, alas, to get into this very interesting discussion (because about 
me?--well, that's certainly one nice thing about it).  Just a few comments 
here and there (mostly on my own work since I consider myself an authority 
on it) till I'm back from my trip.  I see my early mathemaku as purely 
textual--with the addition of the typography of mathematics.  I rarely did 
anything visual or concrete in them, but I was infraverbal in some.

> even some of the pieces collected in his Doing
> Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made 
> with
> scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed "by hand."

My later mathemaku have had a lot of elements that seem to me from concrete 
poetry--but a lot from what I consider visual poetry that is not concrete 
poetry, by my definition of concrete poetry, which I think is the formal 
original definition, which states nothing but textual elements should be 
used; I'm not sure such work had to be visual--I think it had to be 
significantly pluraesthetic in some way--it had to make the visual or the 
auditory much more important than it is in conventional poetry.


SNIP of material I wish I had time to discuss.

> Following Bob's
> mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge
> from and out of the concrete into vis-po.  The more recent works done in
> PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po and,
> indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of 
> digital
> art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete,
> which to say they've taken on a whole other pedigree).  And I have to ask,
> just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it 
> a
> letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"? 
> (Maybe
> "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)

Well, I feel every mathematical symbol I use in my mathemaku has a 
mathematical function, and that it is the same one for me it would be for a 
mathematician.  My
_____
)          means divide what's in front of it into what's in it.
Those two "terms" are usually texts; when so, I am  presenting a 
metaphorical connection between whatever the two texts are semantically 
about, or making poetry.  Or attempting to.  My paintshop long divisions go 
toward Magritte, I would agree, but are still more textual than his.  If I 
have a label, it will be one text "times" another, not a single text.

I worry that the visual elements in most of my paintshop pieces are simply 
ornamental, and that many of these pieces are not visual poetry.  My worry 
is not about qualifying for a name but about doing as much with my visual 
elements as I tried to.  No time to say more.  In any case, to really do 
this discussion right, we'd have to focus on individual works.

--Bob G. 




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 24 01:03:16 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:03:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
Message-ID: <f6.512893c8.2fc40f94@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/23/2005 12:12:19 PM Central Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> 
>            A Worm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Held in suspended animation
> 
> As in a tale by Arthur Clarke,
> 
> We whirl beyond the final station
> 
> Into the interstellar dark,
> 
> 
> 
> Trusting our software to maintain
> 
> Our course through boundless tracks of night
> 
> Then warm and wake each dormant brain
> 
> Into otherworldly light.
> 
> 
> 
> Or else we?ll speed through hyperspace
> 
> On theme-park ships with tropic air.
> 
> However humans interface
> 
> Or merge our software and wetware,
> 
> 
> 
> Some hidden glitch coiled in our code
> 
> Will spread subversion like a worm
> 
> And, crashing systems for a joke,
> 
> Bring our odysseys to term.
> 
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/22/05 9:28 AM, "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu> wrote:
> 
> >At 06:23 PM 5/20/2005 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> >>Klaatu barada nicto.
> >
> >...in reply to Finnegan, who wrote
> >
> >Now that Star Wars is again splashing
> >>all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
> >>that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
> >>of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
> >>etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
> >
> >...which led me first to the fanciful thought that someone
> >ought to write a blues or lament for great robots:
> >Gort, Robbie, Marvin...
> >
> >...which led to a more "serious" question: Has anyone
> >written any poetry (worth re-reading) about science-fiction
> >issues, e.g., about alien contact, or about what one
> >might experience in orbit or in space? I can think
> >of at least a few novels that are not "merely" in the
> >science fiction genre, e.g., Golding's _The Inheritors_
> >and Chinghiz Aitmatov's _The Day Lasts More Than
> >a Hundred Years_, but I am ignorant about any
> >comparable works of poetry (although "You, Andrew
> >Marvell" was eerily prescient about an earth-orbit
> >perspective).
> >
> >Any suggestions?
> >
> >Richard W. Wilsnack
> >rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu

Frederick Turner has written two science fiction "epics."
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From cc at opus0.com  Tue May 24 08:02:12 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:02:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Yeats 
In-Reply-To: <200505231600.j4NG04Re006987@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJAEHJCDAA.cc@opus0.com>

Course I'll take Yeats any/every day.  Probably the greatest poet in 20C.
(I'll wait for posterity to decide.)  His language is beautiful--that is, he
was an EAR, and his words ring also in a kind of 4th dimension (time)
because he had what few writers of 20C had: a mythology.  Advent of mod
science has given Mythology a bad name, as Richard says-- but we'll always
have them around.  Science is a mythology, and it claims to be the only
valid one (Rule 1: take no gods before me).  But of course it won't do for
any of the immeasurables, and so it's quite thin and feeble (silent really)
on the questions of birth/death, immortality and God.  [Weren't those Kant's
metaphysical questions?]  At present, mythologies are all pretty much broken
and you have to make your own if you want it to live.  Descriptions of the
everyday will never do for poetic edification.  Therefore, brave people
follow Blake & Yeats.

Yeats also wrote 26 plays (or so) and produced them at the Abbey Theatre
that he ran for 40 yrs ('f I remember the #).  I think his work in the
theatre (interest in Noh, staged verse) had a profound impact on Beckett,
and so on modern drama as a whole.

> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 22:55:08 +0800
> From: ELEMENOPE Productions <elemenope at icubed.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Yeat's "Loony System"
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Message-ID: <a05100300beb647588a35@[204.215.201.30]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> As to Mr. Snider's dismissal of "The Vision."
>
> Yeats was as great an astrologer as Alfred Witte or Vettius Valens or
> Ptolemy or Carl Jung or King Wen; his system will find a proper
> hearing when thinkers recognize the connection, the missing link, his
> astrology provides in the future university where all the colleges of
> thought and reckoning play their appropriate roles, unlike today when
> Physics and its uses for Cosmology by way of Astronomos, and
> Theology, unconsciously conspire against Astrology both
> intellectually and politically, thereby weakening the standing of
> poets, as well, in their role of Mythologians.
>
> >The Second Coming -- W. B. Yeats
> >
> >
> >
> >Turning and turning in the widening gyre
> >The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
> >Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
> >Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
> >The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
> >The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
> >The best lack all convictions, while the worst
> >Are full of passionate intensity.
> >
> >
> >Surely some revelation is at hand;
> >Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
> >The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
> >When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
> >Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
> >A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
> >A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
> >Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
> >Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
> >The darkness drops again; but now I know
> >That twenty centuries of stony sleep
> >Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
> >And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
> >Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
> >
>
> R i c h a r d  D i l l o n
>
>
> At 09:31 PM -0400 5/22/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
> >  > Will no one champion Yeats?
> >>
> >
> >I'm the one who mentioned Yeats -- in an aside to a reply to Bob's
> >bizarre suggestion that Frost was not an important poet.
> >
> >There are times when no on but Yeats will do for me, and I htink
> >threre are poems of his better than almost anything in English from
> >the 20th century. But I can't get past that loony system his poor
> >wife had to grind  out for him. Of course sometimes HE got past it --
> >
> >                Now that my ladder's gone,
> >I must lie down where all the ladders start
> >In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart.
>




From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Tue May 24 08:15:49 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:15:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Yeats
In-Reply-To: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJAEHJCDAA.cc@opus0.com>
References: <200505231600.j4NG04Re006987@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJAEHJCDAA.cc@opus0.com>
Message-ID: <33abf27505052405155dcd421@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/24/05, Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:
"Descriptions of the everyday will never do for poetic edification. 
Therefore, brave people follow Blake & Yeats."

...I think I love you.




On 5/24/05, Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:
> Course I'll take Yeats any/every day.  Probably the greatest poet in 20C.
> (I'll wait for posterity to decide.)  His language is beautiful--that is, he
> was an EAR, and his words ring also in a kind of 4th dimension (time)
> because he had what few writers of 20C had: a mythology.  Advent of mod
> science has given Mythology a bad name, as Richard says-- but we'll always
> have them around.  Science is a mythology, and it claims to be the only
> valid one (Rule 1: take no gods before me).  But of course it won't do for
> any of the immeasurables, and so it's quite thin and feeble (silent really)
> on the questions of birth/death, immortality and God.  [Weren't those Kant's
> metaphysical questions?]  At present, mythologies are all pretty much broken
> and you have to make your own if you want it to live.  Descriptions of the
> everyday will never do for poetic edification.  Therefore, brave people
> follow Blake & Yeats.
> 
> Yeats also wrote 26 plays (or so) and produced them at the Abbey Theatre
> that he ran for 40 yrs ('f I remember the #).  I think his work in the
> theatre (interest in Noh, staged verse) had a profound impact on Beckett,
> and so on modern drama as a whole.
> 
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 22:55:08 +0800
> > From: ELEMENOPE Productions <elemenope at icubed.com>
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Yeat's "Loony System"
> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Message-ID: <a05100300beb647588a35@[204.215.201.30]>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > As to Mr. Snider's dismissal of "The Vision."
> >
> > Yeats was as great an astrologer as Alfred Witte or Vettius Valens or
> > Ptolemy or Carl Jung or King Wen; his system will find a proper
> > hearing when thinkers recognize the connection, the missing link, his
> > astrology provides in the future university where all the colleges of
> > thought and reckoning play their appropriate roles, unlike today when
> > Physics and its uses for Cosmology by way of Astronomos, and
> > Theology, unconsciously conspire against Astrology both
> > intellectually and politically, thereby weakening the standing of
> > poets, as well, in their role of Mythologians.
> >
> > >The Second Coming -- W. B. Yeats
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Turning and turning in the widening gyre
> > >The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
> > >Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
> > >Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
> > >The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
> > >The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
> > >The best lack all convictions, while the worst
> > >Are full of passionate intensity.
> > >
> > >
> > >Surely some revelation is at hand;
> > >Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
> > >The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
> > >When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
> > >Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
> > >A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
> > >A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
> > >Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
> > >Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
> > >The darkness drops again; but now I know
> > >That twenty centuries of stony sleep
> > >Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
> > >And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
> > >Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
> > >
> >
> > R i c h a r d  D i l l o n
> >
> >
> > At 09:31 PM -0400 5/22/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
> > >  > Will no one champion Yeats?
> > >>
> > >
> > >I'm the one who mentioned Yeats -- in an aside to a reply to Bob's
> > >bizarre suggestion that Frost was not an important poet.
> > >
> > >There are times when no on but Yeats will do for me, and I htink
> > >threre are poems of his better than almost anything in English from
> > >the 20th century. But I can't get past that loony system his poor
> > >wife had to grind  out for him. Of course sometimes HE got past it --
> > >
> > >                Now that my ladder's gone,
> > >I must lie down where all the ladders start
> > >In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart.
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
"No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue May 24 11:36:40 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:36:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
Message-ID: <BEB8B437.124EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Bob Dylan is 64 years old today.


Love Minus Zero / No Limit

My love she speaks like silence,
Without ideals or violence,
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
People carry roses,
Make promises by the hours,
My love she laughs like the flowers,
Valentines can't buy her.

In the dime stores and bus stations,
People talk of situations,
Read books, repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the wall.
Some speak of the future,
My love she speaks softly,
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all.

The cloak and dagger dangles,
Madams light the candles.
In ceremonies of the horsemen,
Even the pawn must hold a grudge.
Statues made of match sticks,
Crumble into one another,
My love winks, she does not bother,
She knows too much to argue or to judge.

The bridge at midnight trembles,
The country doctor rambles,
Bankers' nieces seek perfection,
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring.
The wind howls like a hammer,
The night blows cold and rainy,
My love she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing.

    -- Bob Dylan



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 24 12:07:07 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:07:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
References: <BEB8B437.124EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <003201c5607a$a52243d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Not one of his best known, but one of his best:

MAN OF PEACE

 Look out your window, baby, there's a scene you'd like to catch,
The band is playing "Dixie," a man got his hand outstretched.
Could be the Fuhrer
Could be the local priest.
You know sometimes
Satan comes as a man of peace.

He got a sweet gift of gab, he got a harmonious tongue,
He knows every song of love that ever has been sung.
Good intentions can be evil,
Both hands can be full of grease.
You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

Well, first he's in the background, then he's in the front,
Both eyes are looking like they're on a rabbit hunt.
Nobody can see through him,
No, not even the Chief of Police.
You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

Well, he catch you when you're hoping for a glimpse of the sun,
Catch you when your troubles feel like they weigh a ton.
He could be standing next to you,
The person that you'd notice least.
I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

Well, he can be fascinating, he can be dull,
He can ride down Niagara Falls in the barrels of your skull.
I can smell something cooking,
I can tell there's going to be a feast.
You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

He's a great humanitarian, he's a great philanthropist,
He knows just where to touch you, honey, and how you like to be kissed.
He'll put both his arms around you,
You can feel the tender touch of the beast.
You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

Well, the howling wolf will howl tonight, the king snake will crawl,
Trees that've stood for a thousand years suddenly will fall.
Wanna get married? Do it now,
Tomorrow all activity will cease.
You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

Somewhere Mama's weeping for her blue-eyed boy,
She's holding them little white shoes and that little broken toy
And he's following a star,
The same one them three men followed from the East.
I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace. 

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:36 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob


> Bob Dylan is 64 years old today.
> 
> 
> Love Minus Zero / No Limit
> 
> My love she speaks like silence,
> Without ideals or violence,
> She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
> Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
> People carry roses,
> Make promises by the hours,
> My love she laughs like the flowers,
> Valentines can't buy her.
> 
> In the dime stores and bus stations,
> People talk of situations,
> Read books, repeat quotations,
> Draw conclusions on the wall.
> Some speak of the future,
> My love she speaks softly,
> She knows there's no success like failure
> And that failure's no success at all.
> 
> The cloak and dagger dangles,
> Madams light the candles.
> In ceremonies of the horsemen,
> Even the pawn must hold a grudge.
> Statues made of match sticks,
> Crumble into one another,
> My love winks, she does not bother,
> She knows too much to argue or to judge.
> 
> The bridge at midnight trembles,
> The country doctor rambles,
> Bankers' nieces seek perfection,
> Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring.
> The wind howls like a hammer,
> The night blows cold and rainy,
> My love she's like some raven
> At my window with a broken wing.
> 
>    -- Bob Dylan
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>



From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue May 24 12:09:07 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:09:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
In-Reply-To: <BEB8B437.124EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEB8B437.124EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <6d6de2a35285c46187a06c609f85bf6b@earthlink.net>


On May 24, 2005, at 11:36 AM, David Graham wrote:

> Bob Dylan is 64 years old today.

And will be for the next whole calendar year, or
maybe forever.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From lesrho at fullnet.net  Tue May 24 12:12:21 2005
From: lesrho at fullnet.net (LesRho)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:12:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 11, Issue 35
References: <200505240459.j4O4x5Rd013038@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <002501c5607b$6cdcf0f0$8e0be2d8@retiredud69srz>

I really appreciated Tad's posting. It's one of those pieces that makes you
want to say: "why didn't I think of that?" That theme probably runs through
all of us (forever in formation) poets. As an inventor of things that make
life easier I have all too often read about one of my inventions that I did
not bother to patent then, later, saw it in it's finished form in some "new"
products magazine or even
a catalog staring out at me from the pocket of the seat ahead of me on some
Boeing 737. Too bad
we can't patent (and not just copyright) our poetry the same way we can our
material inventions. I
don't really need to gain monetarily from an invention or a poem but might
want to if Social Security is deleted or if 401 K's fail. I did enter The
Emily Dickenson First Book "Event" for 2005  with the
understanding that the typist who agreed to type the manuscript would
receive any renumeration I
might receive to be attached to grandchildren's college funds. As an amateur
poet who has so much to learn about poetry I thank all of you who post here.
It's as if I am running for the baton in a 50K  relay race and the person I
am to hand the baton off to can't wait and starts their leg before I get to
the handof spot. I hope all of you who are so very far ahead of old codgers
like me in poetic
endeavors can wait for us "over 65ers to make progress in catching up. I
wouldn't want any of you
to drop the baton (as happened at the National AAU's in Omaha to our son's
relay team in 1985).
The team recovered the baton and their composure and went on to place but
not win. That son
and the "dropper" are now an Executive with a well known software company
and a Highschool Coach. A dropped baton does not make one a failure which I
might have considered saying as
their Track Coach at the time. People do read the postings on this site;
budding poets of all ages
probably; so, don't drop the baton. This is my first posting where I
refrained from rhyming; and it sure feels good to have such timing.
dodgonit! Les Easley SFO  A Franciscan Poet
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:59 PM
Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 11, Issue 35


> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Sextons (David Graham)
>    2. The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.
>       (With Death.) (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
>    3. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am.  (With Death.) (Mairead Byrne)
>    4. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am.  (With Death.) (Robin Hamilton)
>    5. Re: Science fiction poetry? (Paul Lake)
>    6. The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am
>       (With Death.)   (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
>    7. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am (With Death.)   (Robin Hamilton)
>    8. The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.
>       (With Death.) (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
>    9. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am (With Death.)   (Anny Ballardini)
>   10. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am (With Death.)   (Anny Ballardini)
>   11. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am (With Death.)   (Bob Grumman)
>   12. My concept of poetry (Anny Ballardini)
>   13. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am (With Death.)  (Mairead Byrne)
>   14. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am. (With Death.) (Robin Hamilton)
>   15. RE: Concrete / Visual (Crisman Cooley)
>   16. Re: Science fiction poetry? (The Old Mole)
>   17. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am.  (With Death.) (Bob Grumman)
>   18. Re: Science fiction poetry? (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:40:03 -0500
> From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <BEB77193.12482%grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> on 5/23/05 7:36 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:
>
> > The bottom line for me is that I can't enjoy Sexton.  I find
> > her writing very clumsy, whatever you choose to call it.  I've gone to
> > the trouble to be specific about this clumsiness based on poems of hers
> > others posted.  Most of what I've got in response are feel-good
> > vagaries.  Then again, that's what I expected.
>
> Sexton is not near the tip-top of my list of 20th century poets, so I am
not
> inclined to leap to her defense.  She published too much slack verse, in
my
> opinion, but there remains a core of great interest, according to my own
> taste.  And she also remains highly significant historically, in terms of
> her influence on other poets, her breaking of certain thematic ground, and
> so forth.
>
> Among other things this discussion has, I think, exposed some of the
> perennial issues of taste and aesthetics in a handy way.
>
> The bottom line for me is that I *can* enjoy Sexton, at least a good
healthy
> helping of her work (the *Selected Poems* edited by Middlebrook & George
> does a good job of weeding, I'd say).  But it seems we're right up against
> the unarguable when terms like "clumsy" occur.  This is not a swipe at
Uche
> or his taste, just a recognition that we're never likely to agree on
things
> once we've entered this realm.  Uche has called our attention to examples
of
> things he finds clumsy, and I appreciate that.  It's instructive.  But if
I
> don't agree with his ear, discussion really does falter at that point,
seems
> to me.
>
> Uche has called Berryman clumsy a couple times, and I'd be interested in
> knowing more about that, for I think I probably disagree about the best of
> the "Dream Songs".  (I myself find *Love & Fame* unreadable.)  In the
larger
> sense, some find Milton awkward; some find grandeur in his knotty syntax.
> Some find Whitman inspiring and original; others find him woozy, tedious,
> and simplistic.  Many enjoy Pope's couplets, while many others would agree
> with Keats that he rides a hobby horse and thinks it Pegasus.
>
> Some find the roughened textures and highly conversational sort of music
> that Sexton employs to be, well, mere prose.  Others find liberation in
that
> break from the strictures of previous poetry, and find her anaphora in the
> passages quoted to be musically compelling.
>
> One further thought:  I've noticed that in that other old unkillable
> argument, free verse vs. meter, we often seem to slip rapidly into
> discussion of theme.  Free verse poets are frequently lambasted not just
for
> being prosy but for being dull, sensational, self-absorbed, etc.  I can't
> count the number of times I've seen complaints about anecdotal &
> confessional free verse, for instance--as if one cannot be both anecdotal
> and confessional (for good or ill) in meter.  Not to mention dull,
> self-absorbed, clumsy, and so on.
>
> In other words, seems obvious that many readers (not Uche, who's been very
> clear on his thinking) object as much to Sexton's thematic taste as they
do
> to her technique.  Nothing wrong with making that argument, I think so
long
> as we're clear on the blurring of content with style.
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:40:26 -0400
> From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am.  (With Death.)
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <200505231640.j4NGeXwd005713 at mail2.atl.registeredsite.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1
>
> 9
>
>
> The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> Death.)
>
> Wow!  I'm spinnin'.
>
> Bob said:
>
> "It contains texts you have to read in order to appreciate it so has to be
a
> form of literature, it seems to me."
>
>
> And Robin said:
>
> "Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in
Arcadia
> Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar.  Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un
> pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a
painting,
> not a poem.  And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple
> typographical images, words even."
>
>
> About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky,
> Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une
> pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.  And
> certainly I realize many if not most of you are familiar with these.  I
mention
> them because they have been, and remain, very helpful for me.  Especially
> the Panofsky.  When I wrote that:
>
> "I believe that we will find that visual poetry is poetry only in an
analogous
> sense (only in certain very restricted respects), and that once this is
> understood it will be seen that all pictorial art (even
nonrepresentational art)
> can then be claimed to be a form of poetry (as it is already claimed to be
a
> form of story-telling)."
>
> When I wrote this I had Panofsky in mind.  And that, in my opinion,
certain
> works (if not most or all) of vis-po seem to me to be asking to be read as
> though they were works of art (pictorial, representational, even non-
> representational) and especially as in the sense we fine in the case of
> symbolic art (as with symbolist art, symbolist painting) -- but as though
vis-
> po has become, or does present, a sort of allegory.  This is not exactly
to say
> that in the case of vis-po we see a certain death of poetry, only poetry
as in a
> sort of "abbreviated" state or condition or incarnation (perhaps it's a
matter
> of endowment).  Poetry in Arcadia?  No,. not here, not in vis-po.
>
>
> In my opinion, I see Bob's eary mathemaku work as very much having its
> roots in concrete poetry, even some of the pieces collected in his Doing
> Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made
with
> scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed "by hand."  I have no
> problem with concrete poetry that has not been composed entirely on the
> typewriter, that is to say that has some elements grafted or pasted into
it.  It
> was anyone's guess where the mathemaku were going to go, whether they
> were going to be strictly an exploration of mathematical poetry (into
"long
> division") or whether they were going to remain strictly in the "realm" of
> concrete poetry and to obey the grammar of concrete poetry (a grammar that
> I see as existing really, and that is different from the grammar of
vis-po, and
> that perhaps we ought to discuss as to determine the validity of my view
and
> indeed the validity and efficacy of such a grammar).  I find -- and this
is not
> a cop-out, please, I think it's really there -- that with the mathemaku
work
> Bob did not explore and demonstrate the grammar of mathematical poetry
> (say, to the degree that anyone could pick up on that grammar and write a
> mathematical poem, which would certainly, due to the use of mathematical
> symbols, be a sort of concrete poetry -- just picture, if you will, the
"equals
> sign," which is made up of two parallel lines of equal length, and which
> SHOW you, signal to you a certain outcome is ahead . . . I think here is
an
> instance of what would be "the grammar of the concrete," and if I'm at all
> correct then it must be said that Bob knew this and understood it and was
> working with it), but instead developed the grammar of these early works
> away from concrete poetry and into vis-po, into vis-po where his
> mathematical symbols, if they function at all, function in an allegorical
sense
> -- that is to say their function is not strictly mathematical but . . .
they serve a
> sort of symbolical narration, parallel and parable.  Following Bob's
> mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge
> from and out of the concrete into vis-po.  The more recent works done in
> PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po and,
> indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of
digital
> art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete,
> which to say they've taken on a whole other pedigree).  And I have to ask,
> just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it
a
> letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
(Maybe
> "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)
>
> The works of August Highland. . . .  They contain elements of language,
> even sentence fragments. . . .
>
> I have been trying to locate the common denominator in all these works.
>
> There are considerations as to purpose and procedure.  Consider the
> procedures of Jukka-Pekka Kervinen.  The generation of his text.  The
> series of procedurals that go into the composition of his works.  I don't
feel
> comfortable calling them "hybrid" or "multi-task" or "multi-media."  The
> sum is greater than its parts -- I don't feel comfortable referring to
that sum
> as "visual poetry."  I wrote of Jukka's works (at the eratio
blog-auxiliary for
> Thursday, June 3, 2004) that they were "aper?us," of his composition that
it
> was "an aper?u of language-in-eideos, of language in ideal form, of
> grammata that is in abstractus."  (I am taking into consideration his
> procedurals).
>
> But I think this stands for Highland as well, in that his language is not
. . .
> "literal" but symbolic, that his language is "ideal."  And I see this as
the case
> with Bob's mathemaku, and especially with his more recent PintShop
> works. . . .
>
> The operative phrase (and the common denominator) for me, in these works,
> is "language in eidos."  Perhaps these works are commenting on, if not
> SHOWING, relationality as such. . . .
>
>
> Mairead provides some fine details, and I make no exception to these at
all.
> There's a book that I've been recommending every chance I get.  It's The
> World in Time and Space, published by Talisman House.  It's a collection
of
> essays and includes a few on media and on digital poetics, "digital media
as
> writing."  I find this collection very helpful and a good resource, a good
> point of orientaion.
>
>
> Mairead says:
>
>
> "Also, much contemporary Visual Poetry is very definitely poetry, or
> presenting itself as poetry, or working within the economy of poetry.  I'm
> thinking of Brian Kim Stefans, John Cayley, and also of a recent visit I
> made to the Cave at Brown University to see work by students graduating
> from the electronic writing program there.  This year's and last year's
Visual
> Poetry exhibition at Harvard included work by people known primarily as
> poets."
>
>
> Yes, I'm familiar with the exhibitions at Harvard.  It was surprising to
see a
> work by Nick Piombino in there, who I think of as a poet primarily (the
> psychologist notwithstanding) but who I also know to have an excellent eye
> and, as it happens, who was kind enough to allow me some pages from his
> Free Fall photocollage novel.  Have a look:
>
>
> http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/nick_piombino.html
>
>
>
>
> Nick's work with Greek language immediately struck me, not as a work of
> vis-po, but a fine work of art, period.  And I immediately thought,
"vis-po is
> coming to mean and to include anything!"  Indeed, it was surprising to see
> Denise Duhamel among the contributors.  I did not know she did vis-po.
> And -- I may be mistaken -- the piece she had there did not seem to me to
be
> vis-po at all.  But perhaps I did not see all that she contributed.  I was
not
> there but saw the exhibition online.
>
> Now some folks argue that poetry has become diluted by all the "various"
> types of poetry being perpetrated today.  What if the vis-po folks put
down
> their foot and said wait a minute, we have certain standards!?
>
> I suppose it depends on the curator, on who was selecting the entries.  I
> would put my money on Scott Helmes or on Geof Huth or on Bob
> Grumman or on Karl Young.
>
> To say that much contemporary visual poetry is very definitely poetry. . .
.  I
> think it more correct, or safer, to say that much visual poetry is
presenting
> itself as poetry and working within the economy of poetry.  There's no
> doubt about that.  But as to whether it is "definitely poetry," well,
that's the
> controversy.  In what sense is it poetry.  In what sense does it
participate in
> poetry.  What does poetry do, and does the poetry in vis-po do that. . . .
>
> I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.  And
> as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act"
> accordingly.
>
>
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
>
> 9
>
> .
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:04:19 -0400
> From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am.  (With Death.)
> To: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>, <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <s291d4f0.084 at risd.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> A poem not strictly relevant but in sympathy with our times & thinking
with admiration of Paul Ricoeur.
>
> CATEGORIES
>
> I'm not sure what is my country.  I not sure what is my book.  If book
print-on-demand where publisher?  Met on Web.  Have passport though.  Lost
property.  Claim me.  What is chapbook if one poem only?  Is festival annual
journal or periodical?  Will APR slay / heap contempt?  What say -- well you
know the/us poets/how/just getting/then sneer?  Ruined chances forever.
Help.  But what is poems online and why do publish book first then poems?
Or anthologize?  Ezine publishes poems: only those not in ebook due next.
Am I Irish poet?  Is Australian webzine Australian or Web or zine?  How to
know.  Whom to ask.  Google?  Google?
>
> Mairead
>
> >>> editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com 05/23/05 12:40 PM >>>
> 9
>
>
> The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> Death.)
>
> Wow!  I'm spinnin'.
>
> Bob said:
>
> "It contains texts you have to read in order to appreciate it so has to be
a
> form of literature, it seems to me."
>
>
> And Robin said:
>
> "Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in
Arcadia
> Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar.  Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un
> pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a
painting,
> not a poem.  And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple
> typographical images, words even."
>
>
> About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky,
> Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une
> pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.  And
> certainly I realize many if not most of you are familiar with these.  I
mention
> them because they have been, and remain, very helpful for me.  Especially
> the Panofsky.  When I wrote that:
>
> "I believe that we will find that visual poetry is poetry only in an
analogous
> sense (only in certain very restricted respects), and that once this is
> understood it will be seen that all pictorial art (even
nonrepresentational art)
> can then be claimed to be a form of poetry (as it is already claimed to be
a
> form of story-telling)."
>
> When I wrote this I had Panofsky in mind.  And that, in my opinion,
certain
> works (if not most or all) of vis-po seem to me to be asking to be read as
> though they were works of art (pictorial, representational, even non-
> representational) and especially as in the sense we fine in the case of
> symbolic art (as with symbolist art, symbolist painting) -- but as though
vis-
> po has become, or does present, a sort of allegory.  This is not exactly
to say
> that in the case of vis-po we see a certain death of poetry, only poetry
as in a
> sort of "abbreviated" state or condition or incarnation (perhaps it's a
matter
> of endowment).  Poetry in Arcadia?  No,. not here, not in vis-po.
>
>
> In my opinion, I see Bob's eary mathemaku work as very much having its
> roots in concrete poetry, even some of the pieces collected in his Doing
> Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made
with
> scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed "by hand."  I have no
> problem with concrete poetry that has not been composed entirely on the
> typewriter, that is to say that has some elements grafted or pasted into
it.  It
> was anyone's guess where the mathemaku were going to go, whether they
> were going to be strictly an exploration of mathematical poetry (into
"long
> division") or whether they were going to remain strictly in the "realm" of
> concrete poetry and to obey the grammar of concrete poetry (a grammar that
> I see as existing really, and that is different from the grammar of
vis-po, and
> that perhaps we ought to discuss as to determine the validity of my view
and
> indeed the validity and efficacy of such a grammar).  I find -- and this
is not
> a cop-out, please, I think it's really there -- that with the mathemaku
work
> Bob did not explore and demonstrate the grammar of mathematical poetry
> (say, to the degree that anyone could pick up on that grammar and write a
> mathematical poem, which would certainly, due to the use of mathematical
> symbols, be a sort of concrete poetry -- just picture, if you will, the
"equals
> sign," which is made up of two parallel lines of equal length, and which
> SHOW you, signal to you a certain outcome is ahead . . . I think here is
an
> instance of what would be "the grammar of the concrete," and if I'm at all
> correct then it must be said that Bob knew this and understood it and was
> working with it), but instead developed the grammar of these early works
> away from concrete poetry and into vis-po, into vis-po where his
> mathematical symbols, if they function at all, function in an allegorical
sense
> -- that is to say their function is not strictly mathematical but . . .
they serve a
> sort of symbolical narration, parallel and parable.  Following Bob's
> mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge
> from and out of the concrete into vis-po.  The more recent works done in
> PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po and,
> indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of
digital
> art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete,
> which to say they've taken on a whole other pedigree).  And I have to ask,
> just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it
a
> letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
(Maybe
> "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)
>
> The works of August Highland. . . .  They contain elements of language,
> even sentence fragments. . . .
>
> I have been trying to locate the common denominator in all these works.
>
> There are considerations as to purpose and procedure.  Consider the
> procedures of Jukka-Pekka Kervinen.  The generation of his text.  The
> series of procedurals that go into the composition of his works.  I don't
feel
> comfortable calling them "hybrid" or "multi-task" or "multi-media."  The
> sum is greater than its parts -- I don't feel comfortable referring to
that sum
> as "visual poetry."  I wrote of Jukka's works (at the eratio
blog-auxiliary for
> Thursday, June 3, 2004) that they were "aper?us," of his composition that
it
> was "an aper?u of language-in-eideos, of language in ideal form, of
> grammata that is in abstractus."  (I am taking into consideration his
> procedurals).
>
> But I think this stands for Highland as well, in that his language is not
. . .
> "literal" but symbolic, that his language is "ideal."  And I see this as
the case
> with Bob's mathemaku, and especially with his more recent PintShop
> works. . . .
>
> The operative phrase (and the common denominator) for me, in these works,
> is "language in eidos."  Perhaps these works are commenting on, if not
> SHOWING, relationality as such. . . .
>
>
> Mairead provides some fine details, and I make no exception to these at
all.
> There's a book that I've been recommending every chance I get.  It's The
> World in Time and Space, published by Talisman House.  It's a collection
of
> essays and includes a few on media and on digital poetics, "digital media
as
> writing."  I find this collection very helpful and a good resource, a good
> point of orientaion.
>
>
> Mairead says:
>
>
> "Also, much contemporary Visual Poetry is very definitely poetry, or
> presenting itself as poetry, or working within the economy of poetry.  I'm
> thinking of Brian Kim Stefans, John Cayley, and also of a recent visit I
> made to the Cave at Brown University to see work by students graduating
> from the electronic writing program there.  This year's and last year's
Visual
> Poetry exhibition at Harvard included work by people known primarily as
> poets."
>
>
> Yes, I'm familiar with the exhibitions at Harvard.  It was surprising to
see a
> work by Nick Piombino in there, who I think of as a poet primarily (the
> psychologist notwithstanding) but who I also know to have an excellent eye
> and, as it happens, who was kind enough to allow me some pages from his
> Free Fall photocollage novel.  Have a look:
>
>
> http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/nick_piombino.html
>
>
>
>
> Nick's work with Greek language immediately struck me, not as a work of
> vis-po, but a fine work of art, period.  And I immediately thought,
"vis-po is
> coming to mean and to include anything!"  Indeed, it was surprising to see
> Denise Duhamel among the contributors.  I did not know she did vis-po.
> And -- I may be mistaken -- the piece she had there did not seem to me to
be
> vis-po at all.  But perhaps I did not see all that she contributed.  I was
not
> there but saw the exhibition online.
>
> Now some folks argue that poetry has become diluted by all the "various"
> types of poetry being perpetrated today.  What if the vis-po folks put
down
> their foot and said wait a minute, we have certain standards!?
>
> I suppose it depends on the curator, on who was selecting the entries.  I
> would put my money on Scott Helmes or on Geof Huth or on Bob
> Grumman or on Karl Young.
>
> To say that much contemporary visual poetry is very definitely poetry. . .
.  I
> think it more correct, or safer, to say that much visual poetry is
presenting
> itself as poetry and working within the economy of poetry.  There's no
> doubt about that.  But as to whether it is "definitely poetry," well,
that's the
> controversy.  In what sense is it poetry.  In what sense does it
participate in
> poetry.  What does poetry do, and does the poetry in vis-po do that. . . .
>
> I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.  And
> as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act"
> accordingly.
>
>
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
>
> 9
>
> .
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 18:10:44 +0100
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am.  (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <025b01c55fba$5be669f0$09042cd9 at Robin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> > The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> > Death.)
>
> Et in Arcadia Ego -- "Even in Arcadia, there I, Death, am," Gregory?  Was
> the (With Death) an add-on to make the link to visual poetry?
>
> > About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky,
> > Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une
> > pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.
>
> I'd concur with Gregory's pointing to Panofsky -- made a big impact on me
> years ago [in a different context] too, and behind my comments.  To my
> shame, I've the Foucault on my shelves, but haven't yet read it.
>
> {Have you seen David Sylvester's books on Magritte, Gregory?  Utter
magic.}
>
> [SNIPPING DRASTICALLY]
>
> > And I have to ask,
> > just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be
it
> a
> > letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
> (Maybe
> > "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)
>
> Concur with Gregory (obviously).
>
> "po" as truncated poetry?
>
> [ANOTHER DRASTIC SNIP]
>
> > I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.
And
> > as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act"
> > accordingly.
>
> I was taken by Bob's comment (if I'm not mis-paraphrasing him) that [the
> grammar of] strict concrete poetry involved playing by the Brazilian
Rules.
> That made sense to me.
>
> (Sorry to cherrypick bits of your post to reply to, Gregory -- I'm in the
> midst of packing, and In Haste.)
>
>         The Stone Dormouse.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 05:10:30 -0500
> From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <BEB71646.9180%paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
>            A Worm
>
>
>
>
> Held in suspended animation
>
> As in a tale by Arthur Clarke,
>
> We whirl beyond the final station
>
> Into the interstellar dark,
>
>
>
> Trusting our software to maintain
>
> Our course through boundless tracks of night
>
> Then warm and wake each dormant brain
>
> Into otherworldly light.
>
>
>
> Or else we?ll speed through hyperspace
>
> On theme-park ships with tropic air.
>
> However humans interface
>
> Or merge our software and wetware,
>
>
>
> Some hidden glitch coiled in our code
>
> Will spread subversion like a worm
>
> And, crashing systems for a joke,
>
> Bring our odysseys to term.
>
>
> Paul Lake
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/22/05 9:28 AM, "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu>
wrote:
>
> > At 06:23 PM 5/20/2005 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> >> Klaatu barada nicto.
> >
> > ...in reply to Finnegan, who wrote
> >
> > Now that Star Wars is again splashing
> >> all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
> >> that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
> >> of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
> >> etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
> >
> > ...which led me first to the fanciful thought that someone
> > ought to write a blues or lament for great robots:
> > Gort, Robbie, Marvin...
> >
> > ...which led to a more "serious" question: Has anyone
> > written any poetry (worth re-reading) about science-fiction
> > issues, e.g., about alien contact, or about what one
> > might experience in orbit or in space? I can think
> > of at least a few novels that are not "merely" in the
> > science fiction genre, e.g., Golding's _The Inheritors_
> > and Chinghiz Aitmatov's _The Day Lasts More Than
> > a Hundred Years_, but I am ignorant about any
> > comparable works of poetry (although "You, Andrew
> > Marvell" was eerily prescient about an earth-orbit
> > perspective).
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Richard W. Wilsnack
> > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:43:54 -0400
> From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <200505231744.j4NHi0UJ011224 at mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1
>
>
>
> The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> Death.)
>
> Robin, I have the catalogue from the South Bank Centre exhibition, which
> was selected by David Sylvester.  The text (and there's plenty of it) is
by
> Sarah Whifield.
>
> The "(With Death.)" was just an allusion to the skull that seems to appear
in
> the various depictions of "Et in Arcadia ego."  Death is the doorway to
> Arcadia.  Lest we forget.  (But how could we?)
>
> Playing by the Brazilian rules.  I have no problem with this, but we must
> take into consideration ALL the rules, from everywhere, if we are to find
a
> common grammar, no?  We must take into consideration ALL the
> manifestoes (even if we have to step on some).
>
> Yes, Robin, "there I, Death, am."  And don't we know it!  But not poetry.
> She lives!  (And she lives in Arcadia!  With the lovers!)
>
>
> Cherrypick all you want.  Watch out for pits!  (I got loads of pits!)
>
>
> Robin wrote:
>
> Et in Arcadia Ego -- "Even in Arcadia, there I, Death, am," Gregory?  Was
> the (With Death) an add-on to make the link to visual poetry?
>
> > About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky,
> > Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une
> > pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.
>
> I'd concur with Gregory's pointing to Panofsky -- made a big impact on me
> years ago [in a different context] too, and behind my comments.  To my
> shame, I've the Foucault on my shelves, but haven't yet read it.
>
> {Have you seen David Sylvester's books on Magritte, Gregory?  Utter
> magic.}
>
> [SNIPPING DRASTICALLY]
>
> > And I have to ask,
> > just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be
it
> a
> > letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
> (Maybe
> > "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)
>
> Concur with Gregory (obviously).
>
> "po" as truncated poetry?
>
> [ANOTHER DRASTIC SNIP]
>
> > I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.
> And
> > as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act"
> > accordingly.
>
> I was taken by Bob's comment (if I'm not mis-paraphrasing him) that [the
> grammar of] strict concrete poetry involved playing by the Brazilian
Rules.
> That made sense to me.
>
> (Sorry to cherrypick bits of your post to reply to, Gregory -- I'm in the
> midst of packing, and In Haste.)
>
>         The Stone Dormouse.
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
>
> 9
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:57:15 +0100
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <02bc01c55fc9$3cef5430$09042cd9 at Robin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Gregory:
>
> > The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> > Death.)
> >
> > Robin, I have the catalogue from the South Bank Centre exhibition, which
> > was selected by David Sylvester.  The text (and there's plenty of it) is
> by
> > Sarah Whifield.
>
> That I don't know, though it sounds cool -- I saw Syvester's 4 vol.
> catalogue raisonne once, but ... Too expensive (cripplingly so) and not
> enough purty lil' pictoors for me.
>
> (Actually, I've a feeling I might have been there, at the SB exhibition
that
> is, and forgotten all about it.  What year was it, Gregory?)
>
> What I have is Sylvester's 1992 offshoot from the cat rais -- 345 pages,
> made for the General Public (twits like me), text and image selection both
> by Sylvester.  Absolutely scrumptious, I think the most so of any of the
> books on Magritte.
>
> (Should I read the Foucault?  I like both him and Magritte, but I can't
> quite work out how to put them together in my head.  Help if I read the
> book, admittedly.  But why violate a virgin ignorance?)
>
> Incidentally, was it Panofsky who retails the comment that George IV made
to
> Samuel Johnson about this?  Could look it up, I suppose, but I'm sure
you'll
> remember and remind me and save me the trouble ...  <g>
>
> > The "(With Death.)" was just an allusion to the skull that seems to
appear
> in
> > the various depictions of "Et in Arcadia ego."  Death is the doorway to
> > Arcadia.  Lest we forget.  (But how could we?)
>
> "Death is the doorway to Arcadia" -- um ... Death as an intrusion in
> Arcadia, or always present there, I'd see it more as.
>
> I'd always taken the skull (and we're not talking about any specific
> painting are we?) as a synonym for Death Himself, and implicitly the
Speaker
> of the Words to the uncomprehending satyres.
>
> Ach -- ought to reread Panofsky -- been more years than I care to admit
> since I last did, and in quite another context.  (The iconography of
> Platonic imagery in Renaissance painting, yet.)
>
> > Playing by the Brazilian rules.  I have no problem with this, but we
must
> > take into consideration ALL the rules, from everywhere, if we are to
find
> a
> > common grammar, no?  We must take into consideration ALL the
> > manifestoes (even if we have to step on some).
>
> Right.  But I think you (and Bob?) are trying for some sort of Universal
> Field Theory of concrete/visual poetry -- all I want is an explanation of
> what was happening in Glasgow in the sixties -- a much more modest
Newtonian
> project.
>
> > Yes, Robin, "there I, Death, am."  And don't we know it!  But not
poetry.
> > She lives!  (And she lives in Arcadia!  With the lovers!)
>
> Weeel, that's yet *another* issue ...
>
>         "Death is the mother of beauty," as some American poet whose name
I
> can't quite call to mind off-hand once said.
>
>         (God, that was a good poem!!!)
>
> > Cherrypick all you want.  Watch out for pits!  (I got loads of pits!)
>
> K, I'll watch for them -- got few enough teeth left that I can afford to
> lose one biting on your pits.
>
>         "Show me a cherry / Without any stone"
>
> Robin
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:36:51 -0400
> From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am. (With Death.)
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <200505232036.j4NKapsT016292 at mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1
>
> 9
>
>
> Robin, the South Bank Centre show was at The Hayward Gallery 21 May
> to 2 August, 1992.
>
> Yes, read the Foucault.  They go together very well.  It's a page turner!
>
> Yes, it was George III.  That episode is here in Panofsky.  I have the
book
> before me.  Chapter 7 starts off with it.
>
> "But I think you (and Bob?) are trying for some sort of Universal
> Field Theory of concrete/visual poetry."
>
> As much as I like to write about Bob's work, and to needle him generally,
I
> cannot say we are exactly following parallel paths.  I want to find a
grammar
> for concrete poetry, and one for vis-po.  As for "the lessons of concrete
> poetry," this is actually quite difficult.  I do not want to parrot the
> manifestoes (take them into consideration yes, of course, but not to
simply
> take them as gospel).  I prefer to go by the works (and what they tell
me).
> And of these "lessons," what and which and how to apply to poetry, and is
> it worth it. . . .
>
> "But why violate a virgin ignorance?"
>
> Tempting.  Very tempting. . . .
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
>
> 9
>
> .
>
>
> Gregory:
>
> > The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> > Death.)
> >
> > Robin, I have the catalogue from the South Bank Centre exhibition, which
> > was selected by David Sylvester.  The text (and there's plenty of it) is
> by
> > Sarah Whifield.
>
> That I don't know, though it sounds cool -- I saw Syvester's 4 vol.
> catalogue raisonne once, but ... Too expensive (cripplingly so) and not
> enough purty lil' pictoors for me.
>
> (Actually, I've a feeling I might have been there, at the SB exhibition
that
> is, and forgotten all about it.  What year was it, Gregory?)
>
> What I have is Sylvester's 1992 offshoot from the cat rais -- 345 pages,
> made for the General Public (twits like me), text and image selection both
> by Sylvester.  Absolutely scrumptious, I think the most so of any of the
> books on Magritte.
>
> (Should I read the Foucault?  I like both him and Magritte, but I can't
> quite work out how to put them together in my head.  Help if I read the
> book, admittedly.  But why violate a virgin ignorance?)
>
> Incidentally, was it Panofsky who retails the comment that George IV made
> to
> Samuel Johnson about this?  Could look it up, I suppose, but I'm sure
you'll
> remember and remind me and save me the trouble ...  <g>
>
> > The "(With Death.)" was just an allusion to the skull that seems to
appear
> in
> > the various depictions of "Et in Arcadia ego."  Death is the doorway to
> > Arcadia.  Lest we forget.  (But how could we?)
>
> "Death is the doorway to Arcadia" -- um ... Death as an intrusion in
> Arcadia, or always present there, I'd see it more as.
>
> I'd always taken the skull (and we're not talking about any specific
> painting are we?) as a synonym for Death Himself, and implicitly the
> Speaker
> of the Words to the uncomprehending satyres.
>
> Ach -- ought to reread Panofsky -- been more years than I care to admit
> since I last did, and in quite another context.  (The iconography of
> Platonic imagery in Renaissance painting, yet.)
>
> > Playing by the Brazilian rules.  I have no problem with this, but we
must
> > take into consideration ALL the rules, from everywhere, if we are to
find
> a
> > common grammar, no?  We must take into consideration ALL the
> > manifestoes (even if we have to step on some).
>
> Right.  But I think you (and Bob?) are trying for some sort of Universal
> Field Theory of concrete/visual poetry -- all I want is an explanation of
> what was happening in Glasgow in the sixties -- a much more modest
> Newtonian
> project.
>
> > Yes, Robin, "there I, Death, am."  And don't we know it!  But not
poetry.
> > She lives!  (And she lives in Arcadia!  With the lovers!)
>
> Weeel, that's yet *another* issue ...
>
>         "Death is the mother of beauty," as some American poet whose name
I
> can't quite call to mind off-hand once said.
>
>         (God, that was a good poem!!!)
>
> > Cherrypick all you want.  Watch out for pits!  (I got loads of pits!)
>
> K, I'll watch for them -- got few enough teeth left that I can afford to
> lose one biting on your pits.
>
>         "Show me a cherry / Without any stone"
>
> Robin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:39:24 +0200
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <008501c55fd7$825ae710$14d73152 at ANNY>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I am curious, how would you define this?
>
> http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm
>
> from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
> by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.
>
> The link is from the following site to which I just got and that promises
much more:
> http://www.eliterature.org/
>
> Electronic Literature Organization
> To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of
literature in electronic media.
>
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:52:07 +0200
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <00a101c55fd9$48886f10$14d73152 at ANNY>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> This might be the easiest way to get to the _poetry_ part:
> http://directory.eliterature.org/browse.php?rectype=works
>
>
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Anny Ballardini
>   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>   Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:39 PM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
Arcadia,there I am (With Death.)
>
>
>   I am curious, how would you define this?
>
>   http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm
>
>   from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
>   by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.
>
>   The link is from the following site to which I just got and that
promises much more:
>   http://www.eliterature.org/
>
>   Electronic Literature Organization
>   To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of
literature in electronic media.
>
>
>   Anny Ballardini
>   http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>   http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>   Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:08:25 -0400
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <006501c55fdb$8fb7c870$88b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I am curious, how would you define this?
>
>   http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm
>
>   I'd call it an animated visual poem.  I like it.  Contrast of the
knowledge in a sentence versus real knowledge, which is one fast letter at a
time.
>
>   --Bob
>
>   from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
>   by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.
>
>   The link is from the following site to which I just got and that
promises much more:
>   http://www.eliterature.org/
>
>   Electronic Literature Organization
>   To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of
literature in electronic media.
>
>
>   Anny Ballardini
>   http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>   http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>   Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:12:18 +0200
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] My concept of poetry
> To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <00a801c55fdc$1a66b670$14d73152 at ANNY>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Henry Gould on his blog defined some of what I think:
> http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com/
>
>
> Poets should not have careers.
>
> Poets should not think about audiences.
>
> Poets should be like scientists or artists... except that scientists &
artists are too careerist as well.
>
> My School of Poetry maintains the following rubrics:
>
> 1. Poetry is a form of mysterious oracular speech akin to glossolalia.
>
> 2. Poetry is the pure expression of beauty & truth - so pure, perfect &
harmonious that it reaches the edge of human speech & touches on the
seraphic.
>
> 3. Poetry illuminates in the same way that all perfect art suddenly
illuminates the conceptual and affective inner world with its perfect
rightness.
>
> 4. There are many secondary forms of poetry, but they all subsist under
the sanction of this perfect, "primary" poetry.
>
> 5. Poetry cannot be taught, bought or sold. It can only be discovered &
apprehended. Good luck.
> posted by Henry Gould 11:37 AM
>
>
>
> I think that by
> Poets should not have careers, Gould means : should not have careers in
poetry, and here I am with him. And also Jodorowsky already stated this.
>
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:19:31 -0400
> From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: <anny.ballardini at tin.it>, <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <s29210bf.099 at risd.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> That's very funny Anny.  As far as I'm concerned anything Brian does is
poetry.
> This must be a tribute to Robert Creeley, unsentimental let's say.
> The funny thing is it reminds me of Creeley's "Lackawanna Lives," recorded
with his son Will, described as "inexplicable beat box/sad rap," though
Brian's piece is far from laid back or rhythmic.  The white space in this
case may be Brian's gesture in making the piece: the emotion lies outside
but it's there.  Well I'm beginning to get pretentious.
> Mairead
>
> >>> anny.ballardini at tin.it 05/23/05 4:52 PM >>>
> This might be the easiest way to get to the _poetry_ part:
> http://directory.eliterature.org/browse.php?rectype=works
>
>
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Anny Ballardini
>   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views
>   Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:39 PM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
Arcadia,there I am (With Death.)
>
>
>   I am curious, how would you define this?
>
>   http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm
>
>   from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
>   by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.
>
>   The link is from the following site to which I just got and that
promises much more:
>   http://www.eliterature.org/
>
>   Electronic Literature Organization
>   To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of
literature in electronic media.
>
>
>   Anny Ballardini
>   http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>   http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>   Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:22:02 +0100
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am. (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <035001c55fdd$76a43010$09042cd9 at Robin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> > Robin, the South Bank Centre show was at The Hayward Gallery 21 May
> > to 2 August, 1992.
>
> Thanks, Gregory.  No, I wouldn't have seen it in that case.  I'd left
London
> by then, so I must be thinking of something else.  Or maybe I went back
for
> a day?
>
> Premature Alzheimer's, me.
>
> > Yes, read the Foucault.  They go together very well.  It's a page
turner!
>
> K, will do -- when I can find it again.  Thought it was nestling beside a
> small book on Delvaux on my shelves, but no ...  always was difficult to
pin
> Foucault down.
>
> > Yes, it was George III.  That episode is here in Panofsky.  I have the
> book
> > before me.  Chapter 7 starts off with it.
>
> Ta!!
>
> Must go pack.  Really.  Truly.  Honestly.
>
> Robin
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:35:49 -0500
> From: "Crisman Cooley" <cc at opus0.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Concrete / Visual
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJEEHFCDAA.cc at opus0.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Discussion between Gregory/Robin/Mairead is almost the first interesting
> thread on vis/concrete poetry I've seen on new-po. (maybe because it's a
> text only list...?hehe)  ee cummings _Collected Poems_ was the first po
book
> I read until the pages fell out.  In music school, everyone wrote pieces
> with texts by ee.  When we first heard Robert Erickson's piece _The Idea
of
> Order At Key West_, we thought he was a fogie.  Oh as we were young and
easy
> in the mercy of his means...!  Now I cannot find a line in ee better than
> this: "She sang beyond the genius of the sea."  Or really, almost any line
> in that poem.  My apologies, Mr. Erickson.  Though I don't forgive you
(yet)
> for your comments on my 2nd string quartet.  A machine, indeed!  <--Joke
for
> dead person.  Dead person I'm currently reading: the Marquis de Sade.  No
> connection I know between these dead persons.
>
>
> > From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete / Visual / Sexton
>
> > Concrete / Visual / Sexton
> >
> > Thank you, Robin.  And thank you for welcoming me to the list, I
> > really do
> > appreciate it.
> >
> > Of course I was listening (and lurking), and Im sure (well, not
> > entirely)
> > there were and are others (who were listening, if not lurking).
> > And Im sure
> > they were, like myself, fascinated.
> >
> > You know in that essay that I quote from in my essay, the one by
Rosmarie
> > Waldrop, she gives good indication of where to locate concrete
> > poetry.  But
> > she doesnt say where the name concrete came from.  I think this is
> > important if we are to locate the break in continuity (the very
> > beginnings of
> > that break) with poetry.  That there is a continuity between poetry and
> > concrete poetry, I dont think anyone will object to -- after
> > all, the carmen
> > figuratum (the shape or figure poem, also called the pattern
> > or, later, the
> > typewriter poem) was always available to the poet, should he be
> > so moved
> > to express himself in that form.  I think the term concrete
> > came from,
> > and was appropriated from, concrete art.  The term concrete art was
> > invented by Theo van Doesburg in 1930 to refer to abstract art that was
> > based not in nature but in geometry and the formal properties of
> > art itself.
> > The underlying idea was that an artwork has value as an
> > independent object,
> > even if it doesnt illuminate social concerns or express an
> > artists emotions.
> > This is, I think, what Waldrop is talking about.  My next point
> > is that while
> > we have to take into consideration concrete poetrys pedigree in
> > poetry (a
> > pedigree that I think visual poetry is forsaking, if not outright
> > dispossessing itself of), given the above about the term
> > concrete, we also
> > must acknowledge its other pedigree, which is found, I say, in
> > concrete art.
> >
> > So there are two rather distinct pedigrees here vying for
> > predominance.  On
> > the one hand we have poetry, and on the other, art.  I think if
> > we are to locate
> > a break in the continuity between concrete poetry and visual poetry, we
> > might do very well to look here, and we will see, I think, that
> > art has taken
> > predominance.  What remains of poetry is the use of elements of language
> > (letters, words, text -- we can already see in the concrete
> > poetry of the fifties
> > and sixties the use of elements of language for graphic rather
> > than poetic or
> > semantic purposes), but, as I just said, not for poetic or
> > semantic purposes,
> > but for graphic or pictorial or, even, symbolic purposes.  This is, in
my
> > opinion, why visual poetry no longer bears any (or slight)
> > resemblance to
> > poetry, notwithstanding its employment of elements of language.
> >
> > When you mentioned strict typographical and enhanced typographical, I
> > felt you were very close to seeing what, in my judgment, anyway,
> > is the case
> > -- so I felt I had to chime in with my opinion.  The enhanced
> > typographical
> > elements are one station on the way to what visual poetry is
> > today. . . .
> >
> > By the way, here is the url to a concrete poem I wrote.  Maybe
> > take a look?
> >
> > http://xpressed.freezope.org/xstream/issue2/gfg.jpg
> >
> > In this poem I try to depict motion, and (depending on the size of your
> > screen) this is seen in the air bubbles rising from someones
> > corpse at the
> > bottom of the sea.  You should see the motion as you scroll down the
> > screen. . . .  Its been said about this poem (that anxiety of
> > influence thing)
> > that I am picturing Bob Grumman dead, but thats not true (or
> > else it wasnt
> > true at the time I wrote it).  If youre looking at this on a
> > cinema screen (as I
> > am) try reducing the size of the screen.  (I wrote it for a small
> > laptop-size
> > screen.)
> >
> > The discussion over Sexton had me looking in my copy of her Complete
> > Poems.  And in there, in the foreword by Maxine Kumin, the subject of
the
> > formal elements in Sextons poetry is addressed.  And it seems Sexton
was
> > indeed concerned about the formal elements of her poetry.  There is also
> > consideration as to what accounted for her incredible popularity.  And
it
> > seems it was not on account of any formal elements in her poems,
> > or, rather,
> > it was on account of her subject matter (as everybody here, I
> > think, realizes).
> > Kumin writes:
> >
> > Women poets in particular owe a debt to Anne Sexton, who broke new
> > ground, shattered taboos, and endured a barrage of attacks along the way
> > because of the flamboyance of her subject matter, which, twenty
> > years later,
> > seems far less daring.  She wrote openly about menstruation, abortion,
> > masturbation, incest, adultery, and drug addiction at a time when the
> > proprieties embraced none of these as proper topics for poetry.
> >
> > And finally, before I wear out my welcome, Ill chime in on
> > Sexton v. Plath.
> > Both Sexton and Plath have distinctive early works and later
> > works.  Sexton
> > wrote more than Plath.  The Awful Rowing (1975) is later Sexton (her
last
> > volume before her death?).  Both poets, when you get to their
> > later works,
> > are by now in what would be complete control of their craft (albeit, who
> > knows about Plath -- and who knows, if she had lived, what her work
> > would have become?).  Plath had Ted Hughes to vie with (no small
> > matter).
> > I think Hughes was an awesome poet, in complete control of the language.
> > Perfectly masculine, a force of nature.  All Sexton had were her
> > ills (I almost
> > said, her companionable ills).  And while her ills were a force
> > of nature
> > too, I think they eventually got the better of her:
> >
> > Why shouldnt I pull down my pants
> > and moon at the executioner
> > as well as paste raisins on my breasts?
> > Why shouldnt I pull down my pants
> > and show my little cunny to Tom
> > and Albert?  They wee-wee funny.
> > I wee-wee like a squaw.
> > I have ink but no pen, still
> > I dream that I can piss in Gods eye.
> > I dream Im a boy with a zipper.
> > Its so practical, la de dah.
> >
> > from HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME
> > by Anne Sexton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:26:16 -0400
> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <001501c55fee$d7d569b0$6401a8c0 at MoleHQ>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Anny - I'm teaching teenagers for the first time this spring, and loving
it.
>
> And thanks.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 6:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
>
>
> >
> > I teach teenagers (mainly, besides my adults' courses)! This is a great
> > poem Tad, it depicts some perfectly,
> >
> > take care, Anny
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 12:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
> >
> >
> >> Here's one.
> >>
> >>
> >> THREE WOMEN
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Three women meet and tell each other their stories.
> >>
> >> They are amazed at the similarities. Each is in her twenties,
> >>
> >> skinny, with bones for hips; each has sunken eyes,
> >>
> >> hair spiky on top, wispy down her neck.
> >>
> >> Each wears a stud in her navel, and all three
> >> navels are visible, below ratty T-shirts, above
> >>
> >> the frayed waistbands of blue jeans.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Each has, above her jutting left pelvic bone,
> >>
> >> a discoloration. Each, in turn, tugs down on
> >>
> >> a belt loop, till it shows purple, the shape of
> >>
> >> an archipelago, more like a birthmark
> >>
> >> than a bruise, but each confesses
> >>
> >> the discoloration is recent.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To get to the meat of it, each
> >>
> >> of these women has had sex with aliens.
> >>
> >> Apparently they are the aliens' type,
> >>
> >> though they distrust each other, and would acknowledge no likeness.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Each wonders if the others are holding back secrets.
> >>
> >> There should be more, each thinks, than this purple spot
> >>
> >> and a burning, similar to a yeast infection
> >>
> >> except for the pulsing, and a faint hum-
> >>
> >> a guy sitting hear them, staring into his beer, thinks
> >>
> >> he hears a chromatic chord, rising and falling,
> >> though where it comes from, he would not hazard a guess.
> >>
> >>
> >> Tad Richards
> >> www.opus40.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:11:10 -0400
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am.  (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <00d001c55ff5$17652ce0$88b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> > In my opinion, I see Bob's early mathemaku work as very much having its
> > roots in concrete poetry,
>
> No time, alas, to get into this very interesting discussion (because about
> me?--well, that's certainly one nice thing about it).  Just a few comments
> here and there (mostly on my own work since I consider myself an authority
> on it) till I'm back from my trip.  I see my early mathemaku as purely
> textual--with the addition of the typography of mathematics.  I rarely did
> anything visual or concrete in them, but I was infraverbal in some.
>
> > even some of the pieces collected in his Doing
> > Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made
> > with
> > scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed "by hand."
>
> My later mathemaku have had a lot of elements that seem to me from
concrete
> poetry--but a lot from what I consider visual poetry that is not concrete
> poetry, by my definition of concrete poetry, which I think is the formal
> original definition, which states nothing but textual elements should be
> used; I'm not sure such work had to be visual--I think it had to be
> significantly pluraesthetic in some way--it had to make the visual or the
> auditory much more important than it is in conventional poetry.
>
>
> SNIP of material I wish I had time to discuss.
>
> > Following Bob's
> > mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge
> > from and out of the concrete into vis-po.  The more recent works done in
> > PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po
and,
> > indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of
> > digital
> > art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete,
> > which to say they've taken on a whole other pedigree).  And I have to
ask,
> > just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be
it
> > a
> > letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
> > (Maybe
> > "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)
>
> Well, I feel every mathematical symbol I use in my mathemaku has a
> mathematical function, and that it is the same one for me it would be for
a
> mathematician.  My
> _____
> )          means divide what's in front of it into what's in it.
> Those two "terms" are usually texts; when so, I am  presenting a
> metaphorical connection between whatever the two texts are semantically
> about, or making poetry.  Or attempting to.  My paintshop long divisions
go
> toward Magritte, I would agree, but are still more textual than his.  If I
> have a label, it will be one text "times" another, not a single text.
>
> I worry that the visual elements in most of my paintshop pieces are simply
> ornamental, and that many of these pieces are not visual poetry.  My worry
> is not about qualifying for a name but about doing as much with my visual
> elements as I tried to.  No time to say more.  In any case, to really do
> this discussion right, we'd have to focus on individual works.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:03:16 EDT
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Message-ID: <f6.512893c8.2fc40f94 at cs.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> In a message dated 5/23/2005 12:12:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
> >
> >            A Worm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Held in suspended animation
> >
> > As in a tale by Arthur Clarke,
> >
> > We whirl beyond the final station
> >
> > Into the interstellar dark,
> >
> >
> >
> > Trusting our software to maintain
> >
> > Our course through boundless tracks of night
> >
> > Then warm and wake each dormant brain
> >
> > Into otherworldly light.
> >
> >
> >
> > Or else we?ll speed through hyperspace
> >
> > On theme-park ships with tropic air.
> >
> > However humans interface
> >
> > Or merge our software and wetware,
> >
> >
> >
> > Some hidden glitch coiled in our code
> >
> > Will spread subversion like a worm
> >
> > And, crashing systems for a joke,
> >
> > Bring our odysseys to term.
> >
> >
> > Paul Lake
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/22/05 9:28 AM, "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu>
wrote:
> >
> > >At 06:23 PM 5/20/2005 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> > >>Klaatu barada nicto.
> > >
> > >...in reply to Finnegan, who wrote
> > >
> > >Now that Star Wars is again splashing
> > >>all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
> > >>that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
> > >>of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
> > >>etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
> > >
> > >...which led me first to the fanciful thought that someone
> > >ought to write a blues or lament for great robots:
> > >Gort, Robbie, Marvin...
> > >
> > >...which led to a more "serious" question: Has anyone
> > >written any poetry (worth re-reading) about science-fiction
> > >issues, e.g., about alien contact, or about what one
> > >might experience in orbit or in space? I can think
> > >of at least a few novels that are not "merely" in the
> > >science fiction genre, e.g., Golding's _The Inheritors_
> > >and Chinghiz Aitmatov's _The Day Lasts More Than
> > >a Hundred Years_, but I am ignorant about any
> > >comparable works of poetry (although "You, Andrew
> > >Marvell" was eerily prescient about an earth-orbit
> > >perspective).
> > >
> > >Any suggestions?
> > >
> > >Richard W. Wilsnack
> > >rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
>
> Frederick Turner has written two science fiction "epics."
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 11, Issue 35
> ******************************************
>



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue May 24 12:14:29 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:14:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
In-Reply-To: <003201c5607a$a52243d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BEB8BD15.12504%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Yeah, I was just musing elsewhere about how, even on his lesser albums,
there are little gems.

Here's one of my favorites, from the relatively neglected *Empire Burlesque*
album from 1985.

Dark Eyes

Oh, the gentlemen are talking and the midnight moon is on the riverside,
They're drinking up and walking and it is time for me to slide.
I live in another world where life and death are memorized,
Where the earth is strung with lovers' pearls and all I see are dark eyes.

A cock is crowing far away and another soldier's deep in prayer,
Some mother's child has gone astray, she can't find him anywhere.
But I can hear another drum beating for the dead that rise,
Whom nature's beast fears as they come and all I see are dark eyes.

They tell me to be discreet for all intended purposes,
They tell me revenge is sweet and from where they stand, I'm sure it is.
But I feel nothing for their game where beauty goes unrecognized,
All I feel is heat and flame and all I see are dark eyes.

Oh, the French girl, she's in paradise and a drunken man is at the wheel,
Hunger pays a heavy price to the falling gods of speed and steel.
Oh, time is short and the days are sweet and passion rules the arrow that
flies,
A million faces at my feet but all I see are dark eyes.
 



on 5/24/05 11:07 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

> Not one of his best known, but one of his best:
> 
> MAN OF PEACE
> 
> Look out your window, baby, there's a scene you'd like to catch,
> The band is playing "Dixie," a man got his hand outstretched.
> Could be the Fuhrer
> Could be the local priest.
> You know sometimes
> Satan comes as a man of peace.
> 
> He got a sweet gift of gab, he got a harmonious tongue,
> He knows every song of love that ever has been sung.
> Good intentions can be evil,
> Both hands can be full of grease.
> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> 
> Well, first he's in the background, then he's in the front,
> Both eyes are looking like they're on a rabbit hunt.
> Nobody can see through him,
> No, not even the Chief of Police.
> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> 
> Well, he catch you when you're hoping for a glimpse of the sun,
> Catch you when your troubles feel like they weigh a ton.
> He could be standing next to you,
> The person that you'd notice least.
> I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> 
> Well, he can be fascinating, he can be dull,
> He can ride down Niagara Falls in the barrels of your skull.
> I can smell something cooking,
> I can tell there's going to be a feast.
> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> 
> He's a great humanitarian, he's a great philanthropist,
> He knows just where to touch you, honey, and how you like to be kissed.
> He'll put both his arms around you,
> You can feel the tender touch of the beast.
> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> 
> Well, the howling wolf will howl tonight, the king snake will crawl,
> Trees that've stood for a thousand years suddenly will fall.
> Wanna get married? Do it now,
> Tomorrow all activity will cease.
> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> 
> Somewhere Mama's weeping for her blue-eyed boy,
> She's holding them little white shoes and that little broken toy
> And he's following a star,
> The same one them three men followed from the East.
> I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue May 24 13:38:40 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:38:40 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
Message-ID: <200505241616.j4OGGJHW118824@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

Yes on both those lyrics....

Anybody read that rather silly Christopher Ricks book---
some good readings at times (especially of "BLIND WILLIE McTELL" from this
some period) but hundreds of pages of dross and silliness to wade
through....
       still I'm glad he did it....

Chris

----------
>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
>Date: Tue, May 24, 2005, 8:14 AM
>

> Yeah, I was just musing elsewhere about how, even on his lesser albums,
> there are little gems.
>
> Here's one of my favorites, from the relatively neglected *Empire Burlesque*
> album from 1985.
>
> Dark Eyes
>
> Oh, the gentlemen are talking and the midnight moon is on the riverside,
> They're drinking up and walking and it is time for me to slide.
> I live in another world where life and death are memorized,
> Where the earth is strung with lovers' pearls and all I see are dark eyes.
>
> A cock is crowing far away and another soldier's deep in prayer,
> Some mother's child has gone astray, she can't find him anywhere.
> But I can hear another drum beating for the dead that rise,
> Whom nature's beast fears as they come and all I see are dark eyes.
>
> They tell me to be discreet for all intended purposes,
> They tell me revenge is sweet and from where they stand, I'm sure it is.
> But I feel nothing for their game where beauty goes unrecognized,
> All I feel is heat and flame and all I see are dark eyes.
>
> Oh, the French girl, she's in paradise and a drunken man is at the wheel,
> Hunger pays a heavy price to the falling gods of speed and steel.
> Oh, time is short and the days are sweet and passion rules the arrow that
> flies,
> A million faces at my feet but all I see are dark eyes.
>
>
>
>
> on 5/24/05 11:07 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:
>
>> Not one of his best known, but one of his best:
>>
>> MAN OF PEACE
>>
>> Look out your window, baby, there's a scene you'd like to catch,
>> The band is playing "Dixie," a man got his hand outstretched.
>> Could be the Fuhrer
>> Could be the local priest.
>> You know sometimes
>> Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>
>> He got a sweet gift of gab, he got a harmonious tongue,
>> He knows every song of love that ever has been sung.
>> Good intentions can be evil,
>> Both hands can be full of grease.
>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>
>> Well, first he's in the background, then he's in the front,
>> Both eyes are looking like they're on a rabbit hunt.
>> Nobody can see through him,
>> No, not even the Chief of Police.
>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>
>> Well, he catch you when you're hoping for a glimpse of the sun,
>> Catch you when your troubles feel like they weigh a ton.
>> He could be standing next to you,
>> The person that you'd notice least.
>> I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>
>> Well, he can be fascinating, he can be dull,
>> He can ride down Niagara Falls in the barrels of your skull.
>> I can smell something cooking,
>> I can tell there's going to be a feast.
>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>
>> He's a great humanitarian, he's a great philanthropist,
>> He knows just where to touch you, honey, and how you like to be kissed.
>> He'll put both his arms around you,
>> You can feel the tender touch of the beast.
>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>
>> Well, the howling wolf will howl tonight, the king snake will crawl,
>> Trees that've stood for a thousand years suddenly will fall.
>> Wanna get married? Do it now,
>> Tomorrow all activity will cease.
>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>
>> Somewhere Mama's weeping for her blue-eyed boy,
>> She's holding them little white shoes and that little broken toy
>> And he's following a star,
>> The same one them three men followed from the East.
>> I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 24 12:51:27 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:51:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 11, Issue 35
References: <200505240459.j4O4x5Rd013038@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<002501c5607b$6cdcf0f0$8e0be2d8@retiredud69srz>
Message-ID: <003d01c56080$d9a58170$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Les - as treasure of NewPo, Sam Gwynn will have a check in the mail to you.

Seriously...thanks.

Most of us here don't know anywhere near as much as we sound like we do. No, 
let me take that back. I don't know nearly as much as I pretend I do. I 
strongly suspect the others really do.



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "LesRho" <lesrho at fullnet.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:12 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 11, Issue 35


I really appreciated Tad's posting. It's one of those pieces that makes you
want to say: "why didn't I think of that?" That theme probably runs through
all of us (forever in formation) poets. As an inventor of things that make
life easier I have all too often read about one of my inventions that I did
not bother to patent then, later, saw it in it's finished form in some "new"
products magazine or even
a catalog staring out at me from the pocket of the seat ahead of me on some
Boeing 737. Too bad
we can't patent (and not just copyright) our poetry the same way we can our
material inventions. I
don't really need to gain monetarily from an invention or a poem but might
want to if Social Security is deleted or if 401 K's fail. I did enter The
Emily Dickenson First Book "Event" for 2005  with the
understanding that the typist who agreed to type the manuscript would
receive any renumeration I
might receive to be attached to grandchildren's college funds. As an amateur
poet who has so much to learn about poetry I thank all of you who post here.
It's as if I am running for the baton in a 50K  relay race and the person I
am to hand the baton off to can't wait and starts their leg before I get to
the handof spot. I hope all of you who are so very far ahead of old codgers
like me in poetic
endeavors can wait for us "over 65ers to make progress in catching up. I
wouldn't want any of you
to drop the baton (as happened at the National AAU's in Omaha to our son's
relay team in 1985).
The team recovered the baton and their composure and went on to place but
not win. That son
and the "dropper" are now an Executive with a well known software company
and a Highschool Coach. A dropped baton does not make one a failure which I
might have considered saying as
their Track Coach at the time. People do read the postings on this site;
budding poets of all ages
probably; so, don't drop the baton. This is my first posting where I
refrained from rhyming; and it sure feels good to have such timing.
dodgonit! Les Easley SFO  A Franciscan Poet
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:59 PM
Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 11, Issue 35


> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Sextons (David Graham)
>    2. The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.
>       (With Death.) (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
>    3. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am.  (With Death.) (Mairead Byrne)
>    4. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am.  (With Death.) (Robin Hamilton)
>    5. Re: Science fiction poetry? (Paul Lake)
>    6. The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am
>       (With Death.)   (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
>    7. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am (With Death.)   (Robin Hamilton)
>    8. The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.
>       (With Death.) (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
>    9. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am (With Death.)   (Anny Ballardini)
>   10. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am (With Death.)   (Anny Ballardini)
>   11. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am (With Death.)   (Bob Grumman)
>   12. My concept of poetry (Anny Ballardini)
>   13. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am (With Death.)  (Mairead Byrne)
>   14. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am. (With Death.) (Robin Hamilton)
>   15. RE: Concrete / Visual (Crisman Cooley)
>   16. Re: Science fiction poetry? (The Old Mole)
>   17. Re: The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I
>       am.  (With Death.) (Bob Grumman)
>   18. Re: Science fiction poetry? (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:40:03 -0500
> From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Sextons
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <BEB77193.12482%grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> on 5/23/05 7:36 AM, Uche Ogbuji at uche at ogbuji.net wrote:
>
> > The bottom line for me is that I can't enjoy Sexton.  I find
> > her writing very clumsy, whatever you choose to call it.  I've gone to
> > the trouble to be specific about this clumsiness based on poems of hers
> > others posted.  Most of what I've got in response are feel-good
> > vagaries.  Then again, that's what I expected.
>
> Sexton is not near the tip-top of my list of 20th century poets, so I am
not
> inclined to leap to her defense.  She published too much slack verse, in
my
> opinion, but there remains a core of great interest, according to my own
> taste.  And she also remains highly significant historically, in terms of
> her influence on other poets, her breaking of certain thematic ground, and
> so forth.
>
> Among other things this discussion has, I think, exposed some of the
> perennial issues of taste and aesthetics in a handy way.
>
> The bottom line for me is that I *can* enjoy Sexton, at least a good
healthy
> helping of her work (the *Selected Poems* edited by Middlebrook & George
> does a good job of weeding, I'd say).  But it seems we're right up against
> the unarguable when terms like "clumsy" occur.  This is not a swipe at
Uche
> or his taste, just a recognition that we're never likely to agree on
things
> once we've entered this realm.  Uche has called our attention to examples
of
> things he finds clumsy, and I appreciate that.  It's instructive.  But if
I
> don't agree with his ear, discussion really does falter at that point,
seems
> to me.
>
> Uche has called Berryman clumsy a couple times, and I'd be interested in
> knowing more about that, for I think I probably disagree about the best of
> the "Dream Songs".  (I myself find *Love & Fame* unreadable.)  In the
larger
> sense, some find Milton awkward; some find grandeur in his knotty syntax.
> Some find Whitman inspiring and original; others find him woozy, tedious,
> and simplistic.  Many enjoy Pope's couplets, while many others would agree
> with Keats that he rides a hobby horse and thinks it Pegasus.
>
> Some find the roughened textures and highly conversational sort of music
> that Sexton employs to be, well, mere prose.  Others find liberation in
that
> break from the strictures of previous poetry, and find her anaphora in the
> passages quoted to be musically compelling.
>
> One further thought:  I've noticed that in that other old unkillable
> argument, free verse vs. meter, we often seem to slip rapidly into
> discussion of theme.  Free verse poets are frequently lambasted not just
for
> being prosy but for being dull, sensational, self-absorbed, etc.  I can't
> count the number of times I've seen complaints about anecdotal &
> confessional free verse, for instance--as if one cannot be both anecdotal
> and confessional (for good or ill) in meter.  Not to mention dull,
> self-absorbed, clumsy, and so on.
>
> In other words, seems obvious that many readers (not Uche, who's been very
> clear on his thinking) object as much to Sexton's thematic taste as they
do
> to her technique.  Nothing wrong with making that argument, I think so
long
> as we're clear on the blurring of content with style.
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:40:26 -0400
> From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am.  (With Death.)
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <200505231640.j4NGeXwd005713 at mail2.atl.registeredsite.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1
>
> 9
>
>
> The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> Death.)
>
> Wow!  I'm spinnin'.
>
> Bob said:
>
> "It contains texts you have to read in order to appreciate it so has to be
a
> form of literature, it seems to me."
>
>
> And Robin said:
>
> "Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in
Arcadia
> Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar.  Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un
> pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a
painting,
> not a poem.  And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple
> typographical images, words even."
>
>
> About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky,
> Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une
> pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.  And
> certainly I realize many if not most of you are familiar with these.  I
mention
> them because they have been, and remain, very helpful for me.  Especially
> the Panofsky.  When I wrote that:
>
> "I believe that we will find that visual poetry is poetry only in an
analogous
> sense (only in certain very restricted respects), and that once this is
> understood it will be seen that all pictorial art (even
nonrepresentational art)
> can then be claimed to be a form of poetry (as it is already claimed to be
a
> form of story-telling)."
>
> When I wrote this I had Panofsky in mind.  And that, in my opinion,
certain
> works (if not most or all) of vis-po seem to me to be asking to be read as
> though they were works of art (pictorial, representational, even non-
> representational) and especially as in the sense we fine in the case of
> symbolic art (as with symbolist art, symbolist painting) -- but as though
vis-
> po has become, or does present, a sort of allegory.  This is not exactly
to say
> that in the case of vis-po we see a certain death of poetry, only poetry
as in a
> sort of "abbreviated" state or condition or incarnation (perhaps it's a
matter
> of endowment).  Poetry in Arcadia?  No,. not here, not in vis-po.
>
>
> In my opinion, I see Bob's eary mathemaku work as very much having its
> roots in concrete poetry, even some of the pieces collected in his Doing
> Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made
with
> scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed "by hand."  I have no
> problem with concrete poetry that has not been composed entirely on the
> typewriter, that is to say that has some elements grafted or pasted into
it.  It
> was anyone's guess where the mathemaku were going to go, whether they
> were going to be strictly an exploration of mathematical poetry (into
"long
> division") or whether they were going to remain strictly in the "realm" of
> concrete poetry and to obey the grammar of concrete poetry (a grammar that
> I see as existing really, and that is different from the grammar of
vis-po, and
> that perhaps we ought to discuss as to determine the validity of my view
and
> indeed the validity and efficacy of such a grammar).  I find -- and this
is not
> a cop-out, please, I think it's really there -- that with the mathemaku
work
> Bob did not explore and demonstrate the grammar of mathematical poetry
> (say, to the degree that anyone could pick up on that grammar and write a
> mathematical poem, which would certainly, due to the use of mathematical
> symbols, be a sort of concrete poetry -- just picture, if you will, the
"equals
> sign," which is made up of two parallel lines of equal length, and which
> SHOW you, signal to you a certain outcome is ahead . . . I think here is
an
> instance of what would be "the grammar of the concrete," and if I'm at all
> correct then it must be said that Bob knew this and understood it and was
> working with it), but instead developed the grammar of these early works
> away from concrete poetry and into vis-po, into vis-po where his
> mathematical symbols, if they function at all, function in an allegorical
sense
> -- that is to say their function is not strictly mathematical but . . .
they serve a
> sort of symbolical narration, parallel and parable.  Following Bob's
> mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge
> from and out of the concrete into vis-po.  The more recent works done in
> PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po and,
> indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of
digital
> art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete,
> which to say they've taken on a whole other pedigree).  And I have to ask,
> just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it
a
> letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
(Maybe
> "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)
>
> The works of August Highland. . . .  They contain elements of language,
> even sentence fragments. . . .
>
> I have been trying to locate the common denominator in all these works.
>
> There are considerations as to purpose and procedure.  Consider the
> procedures of Jukka-Pekka Kervinen.  The generation of his text.  The
> series of procedurals that go into the composition of his works.  I don't
feel
> comfortable calling them "hybrid" or "multi-task" or "multi-media."  The
> sum is greater than its parts -- I don't feel comfortable referring to
that sum
> as "visual poetry."  I wrote of Jukka's works (at the eratio
blog-auxiliary for
> Thursday, June 3, 2004) that they were "aper?us," of his composition that
it
> was "an aper?u of language-in-eideos, of language in ideal form, of
> grammata that is in abstractus."  (I am taking into consideration his
> procedurals).
>
> But I think this stands for Highland as well, in that his language is not
. . .
> "literal" but symbolic, that his language is "ideal."  And I see this as
the case
> with Bob's mathemaku, and especially with his more recent PintShop
> works. . . .
>
> The operative phrase (and the common denominator) for me, in these works,
> is "language in eidos."  Perhaps these works are commenting on, if not
> SHOWING, relationality as such. . . .
>
>
> Mairead provides some fine details, and I make no exception to these at
all.
> There's a book that I've been recommending every chance I get.  It's The
> World in Time and Space, published by Talisman House.  It's a collection
of
> essays and includes a few on media and on digital poetics, "digital media
as
> writing."  I find this collection very helpful and a good resource, a good
> point of orientaion.
>
>
> Mairead says:
>
>
> "Also, much contemporary Visual Poetry is very definitely poetry, or
> presenting itself as poetry, or working within the economy of poetry.  I'm
> thinking of Brian Kim Stefans, John Cayley, and also of a recent visit I
> made to the Cave at Brown University to see work by students graduating
> from the electronic writing program there.  This year's and last year's
Visual
> Poetry exhibition at Harvard included work by people known primarily as
> poets."
>
>
> Yes, I'm familiar with the exhibitions at Harvard.  It was surprising to
see a
> work by Nick Piombino in there, who I think of as a poet primarily (the
> psychologist notwithstanding) but who I also know to have an excellent eye
> and, as it happens, who was kind enough to allow me some pages from his
> Free Fall photocollage novel.  Have a look:
>
>
> http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/nick_piombino.html
>
>
>
>
> Nick's work with Greek language immediately struck me, not as a work of
> vis-po, but a fine work of art, period.  And I immediately thought,
"vis-po is
> coming to mean and to include anything!"  Indeed, it was surprising to see
> Denise Duhamel among the contributors.  I did not know she did vis-po.
> And -- I may be mistaken -- the piece she had there did not seem to me to
be
> vis-po at all.  But perhaps I did not see all that she contributed.  I was
not
> there but saw the exhibition online.
>
> Now some folks argue that poetry has become diluted by all the "various"
> types of poetry being perpetrated today.  What if the vis-po folks put
down
> their foot and said wait a minute, we have certain standards!?
>
> I suppose it depends on the curator, on who was selecting the entries.  I
> would put my money on Scott Helmes or on Geof Huth or on Bob
> Grumman or on Karl Young.
>
> To say that much contemporary visual poetry is very definitely poetry. . .
.  I
> think it more correct, or safer, to say that much visual poetry is
presenting
> itself as poetry and working within the economy of poetry.  There's no
> doubt about that.  But as to whether it is "definitely poetry," well,
that's the
> controversy.  In what sense is it poetry.  In what sense does it
participate in
> poetry.  What does poetry do, and does the poetry in vis-po do that. . . .
>
> I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.  And
> as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act"
> accordingly.
>
>
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
>
> 9
>
> .
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:04:19 -0400
> From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am.  (With Death.)
> To: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>, <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <s291d4f0.084 at risd.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> A poem not strictly relevant but in sympathy with our times & thinking
with admiration of Paul Ricoeur.
>
> CATEGORIES
>
> I'm not sure what is my country.  I not sure what is my book.  If book
print-on-demand where publisher?  Met on Web.  Have passport though.  Lost
property.  Claim me.  What is chapbook if one poem only?  Is festival annual
journal or periodical?  Will APR slay / heap contempt?  What say -- well you
know the/us poets/how/just getting/then sneer?  Ruined chances forever.
Help.  But what is poems online and why do publish book first then poems?
Or anthologize?  Ezine publishes poems: only those not in ebook due next.
Am I Irish poet?  Is Australian webzine Australian or Web or zine?  How to
know.  Whom to ask.  Google?  Google?
>
> Mairead
>
> >>> editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com 05/23/05 12:40 PM >>>
> 9
>
>
> The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> Death.)
>
> Wow!  I'm spinnin'.
>
> Bob said:
>
> "It contains texts you have to read in order to appreciate it so has to be
a
> form of literature, it seems to me."
>
>
> And Robin said:
>
> "Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in
Arcadia
> Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar.  Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un
> pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a
painting,
> not a poem.  And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple
> typographical images, words even."
>
>
> About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky,
> Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une
> pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.  And
> certainly I realize many if not most of you are familiar with these.  I
mention
> them because they have been, and remain, very helpful for me.  Especially
> the Panofsky.  When I wrote that:
>
> "I believe that we will find that visual poetry is poetry only in an
analogous
> sense (only in certain very restricted respects), and that once this is
> understood it will be seen that all pictorial art (even
nonrepresentational art)
> can then be claimed to be a form of poetry (as it is already claimed to be
a
> form of story-telling)."
>
> When I wrote this I had Panofsky in mind.  And that, in my opinion,
certain
> works (if not most or all) of vis-po seem to me to be asking to be read as
> though they were works of art (pictorial, representational, even non-
> representational) and especially as in the sense we fine in the case of
> symbolic art (as with symbolist art, symbolist painting) -- but as though
vis-
> po has become, or does present, a sort of allegory.  This is not exactly
to say
> that in the case of vis-po we see a certain death of poetry, only poetry
as in a
> sort of "abbreviated" state or condition or incarnation (perhaps it's a
matter
> of endowment).  Poetry in Arcadia?  No,. not here, not in vis-po.
>
>
> In my opinion, I see Bob's eary mathemaku work as very much having its
> roots in concrete poetry, even some of the pieces collected in his Doing
> Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made
with
> scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed "by hand."  I have no
> problem with concrete poetry that has not been composed entirely on the
> typewriter, that is to say that has some elements grafted or pasted into
it.  It
> was anyone's guess where the mathemaku were going to go, whether they
> were going to be strictly an exploration of mathematical poetry (into
"long
> division") or whether they were going to remain strictly in the "realm" of
> concrete poetry and to obey the grammar of concrete poetry (a grammar that
> I see as existing really, and that is different from the grammar of
vis-po, and
> that perhaps we ought to discuss as to determine the validity of my view
and
> indeed the validity and efficacy of such a grammar).  I find -- and this
is not
> a cop-out, please, I think it's really there -- that with the mathemaku
work
> Bob did not explore and demonstrate the grammar of mathematical poetry
> (say, to the degree that anyone could pick up on that grammar and write a
> mathematical poem, which would certainly, due to the use of mathematical
> symbols, be a sort of concrete poetry -- just picture, if you will, the
"equals
> sign," which is made up of two parallel lines of equal length, and which
> SHOW you, signal to you a certain outcome is ahead . . . I think here is
an
> instance of what would be "the grammar of the concrete," and if I'm at all
> correct then it must be said that Bob knew this and understood it and was
> working with it), but instead developed the grammar of these early works
> away from concrete poetry and into vis-po, into vis-po where his
> mathematical symbols, if they function at all, function in an allegorical
sense
> -- that is to say their function is not strictly mathematical but . . .
they serve a
> sort of symbolical narration, parallel and parable.  Following Bob's
> mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge
> from and out of the concrete into vis-po.  The more recent works done in
> PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po and,
> indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of
digital
> art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete,
> which to say they've taken on a whole other pedigree).  And I have to ask,
> just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it
a
> letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
(Maybe
> "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)
>
> The works of August Highland. . . .  They contain elements of language,
> even sentence fragments. . . .
>
> I have been trying to locate the common denominator in all these works.
>
> There are considerations as to purpose and procedure.  Consider the
> procedures of Jukka-Pekka Kervinen.  The generation of his text.  The
> series of procedurals that go into the composition of his works.  I don't
feel
> comfortable calling them "hybrid" or "multi-task" or "multi-media."  The
> sum is greater than its parts -- I don't feel comfortable referring to
that sum
> as "visual poetry."  I wrote of Jukka's works (at the eratio
blog-auxiliary for
> Thursday, June 3, 2004) that they were "aper?us," of his composition that
it
> was "an aper?u of language-in-eideos, of language in ideal form, of
> grammata that is in abstractus."  (I am taking into consideration his
> procedurals).
>
> But I think this stands for Highland as well, in that his language is not
. . .
> "literal" but symbolic, that his language is "ideal."  And I see this as
the case
> with Bob's mathemaku, and especially with his more recent PintShop
> works. . . .
>
> The operative phrase (and the common denominator) for me, in these works,
> is "language in eidos."  Perhaps these works are commenting on, if not
> SHOWING, relationality as such. . . .
>
>
> Mairead provides some fine details, and I make no exception to these at
all.
> There's a book that I've been recommending every chance I get.  It's The
> World in Time and Space, published by Talisman House.  It's a collection
of
> essays and includes a few on media and on digital poetics, "digital media
as
> writing."  I find this collection very helpful and a good resource, a good
> point of orientaion.
>
>
> Mairead says:
>
>
> "Also, much contemporary Visual Poetry is very definitely poetry, or
> presenting itself as poetry, or working within the economy of poetry.  I'm
> thinking of Brian Kim Stefans, John Cayley, and also of a recent visit I
> made to the Cave at Brown University to see work by students graduating
> from the electronic writing program there.  This year's and last year's
Visual
> Poetry exhibition at Harvard included work by people known primarily as
> poets."
>
>
> Yes, I'm familiar with the exhibitions at Harvard.  It was surprising to
see a
> work by Nick Piombino in there, who I think of as a poet primarily (the
> psychologist notwithstanding) but who I also know to have an excellent eye
> and, as it happens, who was kind enough to allow me some pages from his
> Free Fall photocollage novel.  Have a look:
>
>
> http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/nick_piombino.html
>
>
>
>
> Nick's work with Greek language immediately struck me, not as a work of
> vis-po, but a fine work of art, period.  And I immediately thought,
"vis-po is
> coming to mean and to include anything!"  Indeed, it was surprising to see
> Denise Duhamel among the contributors.  I did not know she did vis-po.
> And -- I may be mistaken -- the piece she had there did not seem to me to
be
> vis-po at all.  But perhaps I did not see all that she contributed.  I was
not
> there but saw the exhibition online.
>
> Now some folks argue that poetry has become diluted by all the "various"
> types of poetry being perpetrated today.  What if the vis-po folks put
down
> their foot and said wait a minute, we have certain standards!?
>
> I suppose it depends on the curator, on who was selecting the entries.  I
> would put my money on Scott Helmes or on Geof Huth or on Bob
> Grumman or on Karl Young.
>
> To say that much contemporary visual poetry is very definitely poetry. . .
.  I
> think it more correct, or safer, to say that much visual poetry is
presenting
> itself as poetry and working within the economy of poetry.  There's no
> doubt about that.  But as to whether it is "definitely poetry," well,
that's the
> controversy.  In what sense is it poetry.  In what sense does it
participate in
> poetry.  What does poetry do, and does the poetry in vis-po do that. . . .
>
> I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.  And
> as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act"
> accordingly.
>
>
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
>
> 9
>
> .
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 18:10:44 +0100
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am.  (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <025b01c55fba$5be669f0$09042cd9 at Robin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> > The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> > Death.)
>
> Et in Arcadia Ego -- "Even in Arcadia, there I, Death, am," Gregory?  Was
> the (With Death) an add-on to make the link to visual poetry?
>
> > About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky,
> > Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une
> > pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.
>
> I'd concur with Gregory's pointing to Panofsky -- made a big impact on me
> years ago [in a different context] too, and behind my comments.  To my
> shame, I've the Foucault on my shelves, but haven't yet read it.
>
> {Have you seen David Sylvester's books on Magritte, Gregory?  Utter
magic.}
>
> [SNIPPING DRASTICALLY]
>
> > And I have to ask,
> > just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be
it
> a
> > letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
> (Maybe
> > "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)
>
> Concur with Gregory (obviously).
>
> "po" as truncated poetry?
>
> [ANOTHER DRASTIC SNIP]
>
> > I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.
And
> > as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act"
> > accordingly.
>
> I was taken by Bob's comment (if I'm not mis-paraphrasing him) that [the
> grammar of] strict concrete poetry involved playing by the Brazilian
Rules.
> That made sense to me.
>
> (Sorry to cherrypick bits of your post to reply to, Gregory -- I'm in the
> midst of packing, and In Haste.)
>
>         The Stone Dormouse.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 05:10:30 -0500
> From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <BEB71646.9180%paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
>            A Worm
>
>
>
>
> Held in suspended animation
>
> As in a tale by Arthur Clarke,
>
> We whirl beyond the final station
>
> Into the interstellar dark,
>
>
>
> Trusting our software to maintain
>
> Our course through boundless tracks of night
>
> Then warm and wake each dormant brain
>
> Into otherworldly light.
>
>
>
> Or else we?ll speed through hyperspace
>
> On theme-park ships with tropic air.
>
> However humans interface
>
> Or merge our software and wetware,
>
>
>
> Some hidden glitch coiled in our code
>
> Will spread subversion like a worm
>
> And, crashing systems for a joke,
>
> Bring our odysseys to term.
>
>
> Paul Lake
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/22/05 9:28 AM, "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu>
wrote:
>
> > At 06:23 PM 5/20/2005 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> >> Klaatu barada nicto.
> >
> > ...in reply to Finnegan, who wrote
> >
> > Now that Star Wars is again splashing
> >> all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
> >> that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
> >> of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
> >> etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
> >
> > ...which led me first to the fanciful thought that someone
> > ought to write a blues or lament for great robots:
> > Gort, Robbie, Marvin...
> >
> > ...which led to a more "serious" question: Has anyone
> > written any poetry (worth re-reading) about science-fiction
> > issues, e.g., about alien contact, or about what one
> > might experience in orbit or in space? I can think
> > of at least a few novels that are not "merely" in the
> > science fiction genre, e.g., Golding's _The Inheritors_
> > and Chinghiz Aitmatov's _The Day Lasts More Than
> > a Hundred Years_, but I am ignorant about any
> > comparable works of poetry (although "You, Andrew
> > Marvell" was eerily prescient about an earth-orbit
> > perspective).
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Richard W. Wilsnack
> > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:43:54 -0400
> From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <200505231744.j4NHi0UJ011224 at mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1
>
>
>
> The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> Death.)
>
> Robin, I have the catalogue from the South Bank Centre exhibition, which
> was selected by David Sylvester.  The text (and there's plenty of it) is
by
> Sarah Whifield.
>
> The "(With Death.)" was just an allusion to the skull that seems to appear
in
> the various depictions of "Et in Arcadia ego."  Death is the doorway to
> Arcadia.  Lest we forget.  (But how could we?)
>
> Playing by the Brazilian rules.  I have no problem with this, but we must
> take into consideration ALL the rules, from everywhere, if we are to find
a
> common grammar, no?  We must take into consideration ALL the
> manifestoes (even if we have to step on some).
>
> Yes, Robin, "there I, Death, am."  And don't we know it!  But not poetry.
> She lives!  (And she lives in Arcadia!  With the lovers!)
>
>
> Cherrypick all you want.  Watch out for pits!  (I got loads of pits!)
>
>
> Robin wrote:
>
> Et in Arcadia Ego -- "Even in Arcadia, there I, Death, am," Gregory?  Was
> the (With Death) an add-on to make the link to visual poetry?
>
> > About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky,
> > Meaning in the Visual Arts.  Chapter 7.  And about "Ceci n'est pas une
> > pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe.
>
> I'd concur with Gregory's pointing to Panofsky -- made a big impact on me
> years ago [in a different context] too, and behind my comments.  To my
> shame, I've the Foucault on my shelves, but haven't yet read it.
>
> {Have you seen David Sylvester's books on Magritte, Gregory?  Utter
> magic.}
>
> [SNIPPING DRASTICALLY]
>
> > And I have to ask,
> > just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be
it
> a
> > letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
> (Maybe
> > "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)
>
> Concur with Gregory (obviously).
>
> "po" as truncated poetry?
>
> [ANOTHER DRASTIC SNIP]
>
> > I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po.
> And
> > as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act"
> > accordingly.
>
> I was taken by Bob's comment (if I'm not mis-paraphrasing him) that [the
> grammar of] strict concrete poetry involved playing by the Brazilian
Rules.
> That made sense to me.
>
> (Sorry to cherrypick bits of your post to reply to, Gregory -- I'm in the
> midst of packing, and In Haste.)
>
>         The Stone Dormouse.
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
>
> 9
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:57:15 +0100
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <02bc01c55fc9$3cef5430$09042cd9 at Robin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Gregory:
>
> > The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> > Death.)
> >
> > Robin, I have the catalogue from the South Bank Centre exhibition, which
> > was selected by David Sylvester.  The text (and there's plenty of it) is
> by
> > Sarah Whifield.
>
> That I don't know, though it sounds cool -- I saw Syvester's 4 vol.
> catalogue raisonne once, but ... Too expensive (cripplingly so) and not
> enough purty lil' pictoors for me.
>
> (Actually, I've a feeling I might have been there, at the SB exhibition
that
> is, and forgotten all about it.  What year was it, Gregory?)
>
> What I have is Sylvester's 1992 offshoot from the cat rais -- 345 pages,
> made for the General Public (twits like me), text and image selection both
> by Sylvester.  Absolutely scrumptious, I think the most so of any of the
> books on Magritte.
>
> (Should I read the Foucault?  I like both him and Magritte, but I can't
> quite work out how to put them together in my head.  Help if I read the
> book, admittedly.  But why violate a virgin ignorance?)
>
> Incidentally, was it Panofsky who retails the comment that George IV made
to
> Samuel Johnson about this?  Could look it up, I suppose, but I'm sure
you'll
> remember and remind me and save me the trouble ...  <g>
>
> > The "(With Death.)" was just an allusion to the skull that seems to
appear
> in
> > the various depictions of "Et in Arcadia ego."  Death is the doorway to
> > Arcadia.  Lest we forget.  (But how could we?)
>
> "Death is the doorway to Arcadia" -- um ... Death as an intrusion in
> Arcadia, or always present there, I'd see it more as.
>
> I'd always taken the skull (and we're not talking about any specific
> painting are we?) as a synonym for Death Himself, and implicitly the
Speaker
> of the Words to the uncomprehending satyres.
>
> Ach -- ought to reread Panofsky -- been more years than I care to admit
> since I last did, and in quite another context.  (The iconography of
> Platonic imagery in Renaissance painting, yet.)
>
> > Playing by the Brazilian rules.  I have no problem with this, but we
must
> > take into consideration ALL the rules, from everywhere, if we are to
find
> a
> > common grammar, no?  We must take into consideration ALL the
> > manifestoes (even if we have to step on some).
>
> Right.  But I think you (and Bob?) are trying for some sort of Universal
> Field Theory of concrete/visual poetry -- all I want is an explanation of
> what was happening in Glasgow in the sixties -- a much more modest
Newtonian
> project.
>
> > Yes, Robin, "there I, Death, am."  And don't we know it!  But not
poetry.
> > She lives!  (And she lives in Arcadia!  With the lovers!)
>
> Weeel, that's yet *another* issue ...
>
>         "Death is the mother of beauty," as some American poet whose name
I
> can't quite call to mind off-hand once said.
>
>         (God, that was a good poem!!!)
>
> > Cherrypick all you want.  Watch out for pits!  (I got loads of pits!)
>
> K, I'll watch for them -- got few enough teeth left that I can afford to
> lose one biting on your pits.
>
>         "Show me a cherry / Without any stone"
>
> Robin
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:36:51 -0400
> From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am. (With Death.)
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <200505232036.j4NKapsT016292 at mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1
>
> 9
>
>
> Robin, the South Bank Centre show was at The Hayward Gallery 21 May
> to 2 August, 1992.
>
> Yes, read the Foucault.  They go together very well.  It's a page turner!
>
> Yes, it was George III.  That episode is here in Panofsky.  I have the
book
> before me.  Chapter 7 starts off with it.
>
> "But I think you (and Bob?) are trying for some sort of Universal
> Field Theory of concrete/visual poetry."
>
> As much as I like to write about Bob's work, and to needle him generally,
I
> cannot say we are exactly following parallel paths.  I want to find a
grammar
> for concrete poetry, and one for vis-po.  As for "the lessons of concrete
> poetry," this is actually quite difficult.  I do not want to parrot the
> manifestoes (take them into consideration yes, of course, but not to
simply
> take them as gospel).  I prefer to go by the works (and what they tell
me).
> And of these "lessons," what and which and how to apply to poetry, and is
> it worth it. . . .
>
> "But why violate a virgin ignorance?"
>
> Tempting.  Very tempting. . . .
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
>
> 9
>
> .
>
>
> Gregory:
>
> > The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am.  (With
> > Death.)
> >
> > Robin, I have the catalogue from the South Bank Centre exhibition, which
> > was selected by David Sylvester.  The text (and there's plenty of it) is
> by
> > Sarah Whifield.
>
> That I don't know, though it sounds cool -- I saw Syvester's 4 vol.
> catalogue raisonne once, but ... Too expensive (cripplingly so) and not
> enough purty lil' pictoors for me.
>
> (Actually, I've a feeling I might have been there, at the SB exhibition
that
> is, and forgotten all about it.  What year was it, Gregory?)
>
> What I have is Sylvester's 1992 offshoot from the cat rais -- 345 pages,
> made for the General Public (twits like me), text and image selection both
> by Sylvester.  Absolutely scrumptious, I think the most so of any of the
> books on Magritte.
>
> (Should I read the Foucault?  I like both him and Magritte, but I can't
> quite work out how to put them together in my head.  Help if I read the
> book, admittedly.  But why violate a virgin ignorance?)
>
> Incidentally, was it Panofsky who retails the comment that George IV made
> to
> Samuel Johnson about this?  Could look it up, I suppose, but I'm sure
you'll
> remember and remind me and save me the trouble ...  <g>
>
> > The "(With Death.)" was just an allusion to the skull that seems to
appear
> in
> > the various depictions of "Et in Arcadia ego."  Death is the doorway to
> > Arcadia.  Lest we forget.  (But how could we?)
>
> "Death is the doorway to Arcadia" -- um ... Death as an intrusion in
> Arcadia, or always present there, I'd see it more as.
>
> I'd always taken the skull (and we're not talking about any specific
> painting are we?) as a synonym for Death Himself, and implicitly the
> Speaker
> of the Words to the uncomprehending satyres.
>
> Ach -- ought to reread Panofsky -- been more years than I care to admit
> since I last did, and in quite another context.  (The iconography of
> Platonic imagery in Renaissance painting, yet.)
>
> > Playing by the Brazilian rules.  I have no problem with this, but we
must
> > take into consideration ALL the rules, from everywhere, if we are to
find
> a
> > common grammar, no?  We must take into consideration ALL the
> > manifestoes (even if we have to step on some).
>
> Right.  But I think you (and Bob?) are trying for some sort of Universal
> Field Theory of concrete/visual poetry -- all I want is an explanation of
> what was happening in Glasgow in the sixties -- a much more modest
> Newtonian
> project.
>
> > Yes, Robin, "there I, Death, am."  And don't we know it!  But not
poetry.
> > She lives!  (And she lives in Arcadia!  With the lovers!)
>
> Weeel, that's yet *another* issue ...
>
>         "Death is the mother of beauty," as some American poet whose name
I
> can't quite call to mind off-hand once said.
>
>         (God, that was a good poem!!!)
>
> > Cherrypick all you want.  Watch out for pits!  (I got loads of pits!)
>
> K, I'll watch for them -- got few enough teeth left that I can afford to
> lose one biting on your pits.
>
>         "Show me a cherry / Without any stone"
>
> Robin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:39:24 +0200
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <008501c55fd7$825ae710$14d73152 at ANNY>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I am curious, how would you define this?
>
> http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm
>
> from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
> by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.
>
> The link is from the following site to which I just got and that promises
much more:
> http://www.eliterature.org/
>
> Electronic Literature Organization
> To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of
literature in electronic media.
>
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:52:07 +0200
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <00a101c55fd9$48886f10$14d73152 at ANNY>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> This might be the easiest way to get to the _poetry_ part:
> http://directory.eliterature.org/browse.php?rectype=works
>
>
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Anny Ballardini
>   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>   Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:39 PM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
Arcadia,there I am (With Death.)
>
>
>   I am curious, how would you define this?
>
>   http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm
>
>   from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
>   by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.
>
>   The link is from the following site to which I just got and that
promises much more:
>   http://www.eliterature.org/
>
>   Electronic Literature Organization
>   To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of
literature in electronic media.
>
>
>   Anny Ballardini
>   http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>   http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>   Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:08:25 -0400
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <006501c55fdb$8fb7c870$88b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I am curious, how would you define this?
>
>   http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm
>
>   I'd call it an animated visual poem.  I like it.  Contrast of the
knowledge in a sentence versus real knowledge, which is one fast letter at a
time.
>
>   --Bob
>
>   from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
>   by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.
>
>   The link is from the following site to which I just got and that
promises much more:
>   http://www.eliterature.org/
>
>   Electronic Literature Organization
>   To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of
literature in electronic media.
>
>
>   Anny Ballardini
>   http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>   http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>   Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:12:18 +0200
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] My concept of poetry
> To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <00a801c55fdc$1a66b670$14d73152 at ANNY>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Henry Gould on his blog defined some of what I think:
> http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com/
>
>
> Poets should not have careers.
>
> Poets should not think about audiences.
>
> Poets should be like scientists or artists... except that scientists &
artists are too careerist as well.
>
> My School of Poetry maintains the following rubrics:
>
> 1. Poetry is a form of mysterious oracular speech akin to glossolalia.
>
> 2. Poetry is the pure expression of beauty & truth - so pure, perfect &
harmonious that it reaches the edge of human speech & touches on the
seraphic.
>
> 3. Poetry illuminates in the same way that all perfect art suddenly
illuminates the conceptual and affective inner world with its perfect
rightness.
>
> 4. There are many secondary forms of poetry, but they all subsist under
the sanction of this perfect, "primary" poetry.
>
> 5. Poetry cannot be taught, bought or sold. It can only be discovered &
apprehended. Good luck.
> posted by Henry Gould 11:37 AM
>
>
>
> I think that by
> Poets should not have careers, Gould means : should not have careers in
poetry, and here I am with him. And also Jodorowsky already stated this.
>
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:19:31 -0400
> From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am (With Death.)
> To: <anny.ballardini at tin.it>, <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <s29210bf.099 at risd.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> That's very funny Anny.  As far as I'm concerned anything Brian does is
poetry.
> This must be a tribute to Robert Creeley, unsentimental let's say.
> The funny thing is it reminds me of Creeley's "Lackawanna Lives," recorded
with his son Will, described as "inexplicable beat box/sad rap," though
Brian's piece is far from laid back or rhythmic.  The white space in this
case may be Brian's gesture in making the piece: the emotion lies outside
but it's there.  Well I'm beginning to get pretentious.
> Mairead
>
> >>> anny.ballardini at tin.it 05/23/05 4:52 PM >>>
> This might be the easiest way to get to the _poetry_ part:
> http://directory.eliterature.org/browse.php?rectype=works
>
>
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Anny Ballardini
>   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views
>   Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:39 PM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
Arcadia,there I am (With Death.)
>
>
>   I am curious, how would you define this?
>
>   http://horselesspress.com/stefans/i_know_index.htm
>
>   from "I Know a Man, One Letter at a Time"
>   by Brian Kim Stefans, 2005.
>
>   The link is from the following site to which I just got and that
promises much more:
>   http://www.eliterature.org/
>
>   Electronic Literature Organization
>   To facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and reading of
literature in electronic media.
>
>
>   Anny Ballardini
>   http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>   http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>   Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:22:02 +0100
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am. (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <035001c55fdd$76a43010$09042cd9 at Robin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> > Robin, the South Bank Centre show was at The Hayward Gallery 21 May
> > to 2 August, 1992.
>
> Thanks, Gregory.  No, I wouldn't have seen it in that case.  I'd left
London
> by then, so I must be thinking of something else.  Or maybe I went back
for
> a day?
>
> Premature Alzheimer's, me.
>
> > Yes, read the Foucault.  They go together very well.  It's a page
turner!
>
> K, will do -- when I can find it again.  Thought it was nestling beside a
> small book on Delvaux on my shelves, but no ...  always was difficult to
pin
> Foucault down.
>
> > Yes, it was George III.  That episode is here in Panofsky.  I have the
> book
> > before me.  Chapter 7 starts off with it.
>
> Ta!!
>
> Must go pack.  Really.  Truly.  Honestly.
>
> Robin
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:35:49 -0500
> From: "Crisman Cooley" <cc at opus0.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Concrete / Visual
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJEEHFCDAA.cc at opus0.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Discussion between Gregory/Robin/Mairead is almost the first interesting
> thread on vis/concrete poetry I've seen on new-po. (maybe because it's a
> text only list...?hehe)  ee cummings _Collected Poems_ was the first po
book
> I read until the pages fell out.  In music school, everyone wrote pieces
> with texts by ee.  When we first heard Robert Erickson's piece _The Idea
of
> Order At Key West_, we thought he was a fogie.  Oh as we were young and
easy
> in the mercy of his means...!  Now I cannot find a line in ee better than
> this: "She sang beyond the genius of the sea."  Or really, almost any line
> in that poem.  My apologies, Mr. Erickson.  Though I don't forgive you
(yet)
> for your comments on my 2nd string quartet.  A machine, indeed!  <--Joke
for
> dead person.  Dead person I'm currently reading: the Marquis de Sade.  No
> connection I know between these dead persons.
>
>
> > From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete / Visual / Sexton
>
> > Concrete / Visual / Sexton
> >
> > Thank you, Robin.  And thank you for welcoming me to the list, I
> > really do
> > appreciate it.
> >
> > Of course I was listening (and lurking), and Im sure (well, not
> > entirely)
> > there were and are others (who were listening, if not lurking).
> > And Im sure
> > they were, like myself, fascinated.
> >
> > You know in that essay that I quote from in my essay, the one by
Rosmarie
> > Waldrop, she gives good indication of where to locate concrete
> > poetry.  But
> > she doesnt say where the name concrete came from.  I think this is
> > important if we are to locate the break in continuity (the very
> > beginnings of
> > that break) with poetry.  That there is a continuity between poetry and
> > concrete poetry, I dont think anyone will object to -- after
> > all, the carmen
> > figuratum (the shape or figure poem, also called the pattern
> > or, later, the
> > typewriter poem) was always available to the poet, should he be
> > so moved
> > to express himself in that form.  I think the term concrete
> > came from,
> > and was appropriated from, concrete art.  The term concrete art was
> > invented by Theo van Doesburg in 1930 to refer to abstract art that was
> > based not in nature but in geometry and the formal properties of
> > art itself.
> > The underlying idea was that an artwork has value as an
> > independent object,
> > even if it doesnt illuminate social concerns or express an
> > artists emotions.
> > This is, I think, what Waldrop is talking about.  My next point
> > is that while
> > we have to take into consideration concrete poetrys pedigree in
> > poetry (a
> > pedigree that I think visual poetry is forsaking, if not outright
> > dispossessing itself of), given the above about the term
> > concrete, we also
> > must acknowledge its other pedigree, which is found, I say, in
> > concrete art.
> >
> > So there are two rather distinct pedigrees here vying for
> > predominance.  On
> > the one hand we have poetry, and on the other, art.  I think if
> > we are to locate
> > a break in the continuity between concrete poetry and visual poetry, we
> > might do very well to look here, and we will see, I think, that
> > art has taken
> > predominance.  What remains of poetry is the use of elements of language
> > (letters, words, text -- we can already see in the concrete
> > poetry of the fifties
> > and sixties the use of elements of language for graphic rather
> > than poetic or
> > semantic purposes), but, as I just said, not for poetic or
> > semantic purposes,
> > but for graphic or pictorial or, even, symbolic purposes.  This is, in
my
> > opinion, why visual poetry no longer bears any (or slight)
> > resemblance to
> > poetry, notwithstanding its employment of elements of language.
> >
> > When you mentioned strict typographical and enhanced typographical, I
> > felt you were very close to seeing what, in my judgment, anyway,
> > is the case
> > -- so I felt I had to chime in with my opinion.  The enhanced
> > typographical
> > elements are one station on the way to what visual poetry is
> > today. . . .
> >
> > By the way, here is the url to a concrete poem I wrote.  Maybe
> > take a look?
> >
> > http://xpressed.freezope.org/xstream/issue2/gfg.jpg
> >
> > In this poem I try to depict motion, and (depending on the size of your
> > screen) this is seen in the air bubbles rising from someones
> > corpse at the
> > bottom of the sea.  You should see the motion as you scroll down the
> > screen. . . .  Its been said about this poem (that anxiety of
> > influence thing)
> > that I am picturing Bob Grumman dead, but thats not true (or
> > else it wasnt
> > true at the time I wrote it).  If youre looking at this on a
> > cinema screen (as I
> > am) try reducing the size of the screen.  (I wrote it for a small
> > laptop-size
> > screen.)
> >
> > The discussion over Sexton had me looking in my copy of her Complete
> > Poems.  And in there, in the foreword by Maxine Kumin, the subject of
the
> > formal elements in Sextons poetry is addressed.  And it seems Sexton
was
> > indeed concerned about the formal elements of her poetry.  There is also
> > consideration as to what accounted for her incredible popularity.  And
it
> > seems it was not on account of any formal elements in her poems,
> > or, rather,
> > it was on account of her subject matter (as everybody here, I
> > think, realizes).
> > Kumin writes:
> >
> > Women poets in particular owe a debt to Anne Sexton, who broke new
> > ground, shattered taboos, and endured a barrage of attacks along the way
> > because of the flamboyance of her subject matter, which, twenty
> > years later,
> > seems far less daring.  She wrote openly about menstruation, abortion,
> > masturbation, incest, adultery, and drug addiction at a time when the
> > proprieties embraced none of these as proper topics for poetry.
> >
> > And finally, before I wear out my welcome, Ill chime in on
> > Sexton v. Plath.
> > Both Sexton and Plath have distinctive early works and later
> > works.  Sexton
> > wrote more than Plath.  The Awful Rowing (1975) is later Sexton (her
last
> > volume before her death?).  Both poets, when you get to their
> > later works,
> > are by now in what would be complete control of their craft (albeit, who
> > knows about Plath -- and who knows, if she had lived, what her work
> > would have become?).  Plath had Ted Hughes to vie with (no small
> > matter).
> > I think Hughes was an awesome poet, in complete control of the language.
> > Perfectly masculine, a force of nature.  All Sexton had were her
> > ills (I almost
> > said, her companionable ills).  And while her ills were a force
> > of nature
> > too, I think they eventually got the better of her:
> >
> > Why shouldnt I pull down my pants
> > and moon at the executioner
> > as well as paste raisins on my breasts?
> > Why shouldnt I pull down my pants
> > and show my little cunny to Tom
> > and Albert?  They wee-wee funny.
> > I wee-wee like a squaw.
> > I have ink but no pen, still
> > I dream that I can piss in Gods eye.
> > I dream Im a boy with a zipper.
> > Its so practical, la de dah.
> >
> > from HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME
> > by Anne Sexton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
> >
> > 9
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:26:16 -0400
> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <001501c55fee$d7d569b0$6401a8c0 at MoleHQ>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Anny - I'm teaching teenagers for the first time this spring, and loving
it.
>
> And thanks.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 6:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
>
>
> >
> > I teach teenagers (mainly, besides my adults' courses)! This is a great
> > poem Tad, it depicts some perfectly,
> >
> > take care, Anny
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 12:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
> >
> >
> >> Here's one.
> >>
> >>
> >> THREE WOMEN
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Three women meet and tell each other their stories.
> >>
> >> They are amazed at the similarities. Each is in her twenties,
> >>
> >> skinny, with bones for hips; each has sunken eyes,
> >>
> >> hair spiky on top, wispy down her neck.
> >>
> >> Each wears a stud in her navel, and all three
> >> navels are visible, below ratty T-shirts, above
> >>
> >> the frayed waistbands of blue jeans.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Each has, above her jutting left pelvic bone,
> >>
> >> a discoloration. Each, in turn, tugs down on
> >>
> >> a belt loop, till it shows purple, the shape of
> >>
> >> an archipelago, more like a birthmark
> >>
> >> than a bruise, but each confesses
> >>
> >> the discoloration is recent.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To get to the meat of it, each
> >>
> >> of these women has had sex with aliens.
> >>
> >> Apparently they are the aliens' type,
> >>
> >> though they distrust each other, and would acknowledge no likeness.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Each wonders if the others are holding back secrets.
> >>
> >> There should be more, each thinks, than this purple spot
> >>
> >> and a burning, similar to a yeast infection
> >>
> >> except for the pulsing, and a faint hum-
> >>
> >> a guy sitting hear them, staring into his beer, thinks
> >>
> >> he hears a chromatic chord, rising and falling,
> >> though where it comes from, he would not hazard a guess.
> >>
> >>
> >> Tad Richards
> >> www.opus40.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:11:10 -0400
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in
> Arcadia, there I am.  (With Death.)
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <00d001c55ff5$17652ce0$88b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> > In my opinion, I see Bob's early mathemaku work as very much having its
> > roots in concrete poetry,
>
> No time, alas, to get into this very interesting discussion (because about
> me?--well, that's certainly one nice thing about it).  Just a few comments
> here and there (mostly on my own work since I consider myself an authority
> on it) till I'm back from my trip.  I see my early mathemaku as purely
> textual--with the addition of the typography of mathematics.  I rarely did
> anything visual or concrete in them, but I was infraverbal in some.
>
> > even some of the pieces collected in his Doing
> > Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made
> > with
> > scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed "by hand."
>
> My later mathemaku have had a lot of elements that seem to me from
concrete
> poetry--but a lot from what I consider visual poetry that is not concrete
> poetry, by my definition of concrete poetry, which I think is the formal
> original definition, which states nothing but textual elements should be
> used; I'm not sure such work had to be visual--I think it had to be
> significantly pluraesthetic in some way--it had to make the visual or the
> auditory much more important than it is in conventional poetry.
>
>
> SNIP of material I wish I had time to discuss.
>
> > Following Bob's
> > mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge
> > from and out of the concrete into vis-po.  The more recent works done in
> > PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po
and,
> > indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of
> > digital
> > art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete,
> > which to say they've taken on a whole other pedigree).  And I have to
ask,
> > just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be
it
> > a
> > letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"?
> > (Maybe
> > "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.)
>
> Well, I feel every mathematical symbol I use in my mathemaku has a
> mathematical function, and that it is the same one for me it would be for
a
> mathematician.  My
> _____
> )          means divide what's in front of it into what's in it.
> Those two "terms" are usually texts; when so, I am  presenting a
> metaphorical connection between whatever the two texts are semantically
> about, or making poetry.  Or attempting to.  My paintshop long divisions
go
> toward Magritte, I would agree, but are still more textual than his.  If I
> have a label, it will be one text "times" another, not a single text.
>
> I worry that the visual elements in most of my paintshop pieces are simply
> ornamental, and that many of these pieces are not visual poetry.  My worry
> is not about qualifying for a name but about doing as much with my visual
> elements as I tried to.  No time to say more.  In any case, to really do
> this discussion right, we'd have to focus on individual works.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:03:16 EDT
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Science fiction poetry?
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Message-ID: <f6.512893c8.2fc40f94 at cs.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> In a message dated 5/23/2005 12:12:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
> >
> >            A Worm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Held in suspended animation
> >
> > As in a tale by Arthur Clarke,
> >
> > We whirl beyond the final station
> >
> > Into the interstellar dark,
> >
> >
> >
> > Trusting our software to maintain
> >
> > Our course through boundless tracks of night
> >
> > Then warm and wake each dormant brain
> >
> > Into otherworldly light.
> >
> >
> >
> > Or else we?ll speed through hyperspace
> >
> > On theme-park ships with tropic air.
> >
> > However humans interface
> >
> > Or merge our software and wetware,
> >
> >
> >
> > Some hidden glitch coiled in our code
> >
> > Will spread subversion like a worm
> >
> > And, crashing systems for a joke,
> >
> > Bring our odysseys to term.
> >
> >
> > Paul Lake
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/22/05 9:28 AM, "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu>
wrote:
> >
> > >At 06:23 PM 5/20/2005 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> > >>Klaatu barada nicto.
> > >
> > >...in reply to Finnegan, who wrote
> > >
> > >Now that Star Wars is again splashing
> > >>all over our screens, it good time to reflect on the fact
> > >>that few sci-fi movies of any worth have made it by virtue
> > >>of f/x alone. The characterizations, narrative, dialog,
> > >>etc., do most of the heavy lifting, as they always have.
> > >
> > >...which led me first to the fanciful thought that someone
> > >ought to write a blues or lament for great robots:
> > >Gort, Robbie, Marvin...
> > >
> > >...which led to a more "serious" question: Has anyone
> > >written any poetry (worth re-reading) about science-fiction
> > >issues, e.g., about alien contact, or about what one
> > >might experience in orbit or in space? I can think
> > >of at least a few novels that are not "merely" in the
> > >science fiction genre, e.g., Golding's _The Inheritors_
> > >and Chinghiz Aitmatov's _The Day Lasts More Than
> > >a Hundred Years_, but I am ignorant about any
> > >comparable works of poetry (although "You, Andrew
> > >Marvell" was eerily prescient about an earth-orbit
> > >perspective).
> > >
> > >Any suggestions?
> > >
> > >Richard W. Wilsnack
> > >rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
>
> Frederick Turner has written two science fiction "epics."
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>
>
> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 11, Issue 35
> ******************************************
>

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From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 24 12:52:19 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:52:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
References: <200505241616.j4OGGJHW118824@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <004201c56080$f551b420$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Chris - it's on my list.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Stroffolino " <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob


> Yes on both those lyrics....
>
> Anybody read that rather silly Christopher Ricks book---
> some good readings at times (especially of "BLIND WILLIE McTELL" from this
> some period) but hundreds of pages of dross and silliness to wade
> through....
>       still I'm glad he did it....
>
> Chris
>
> ----------
>>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
>>Date: Tue, May 24, 2005, 8:14 AM
>>
>
>> Yeah, I was just musing elsewhere about how, even on his lesser albums,
>> there are little gems.
>>
>> Here's one of my favorites, from the relatively neglected *Empire 
>> Burlesque*
>> album from 1985.
>>
>> Dark Eyes
>>
>> Oh, the gentlemen are talking and the midnight moon is on the riverside,
>> They're drinking up and walking and it is time for me to slide.
>> I live in another world where life and death are memorized,
>> Where the earth is strung with lovers' pearls and all I see are dark 
>> eyes.
>>
>> A cock is crowing far away and another soldier's deep in prayer,
>> Some mother's child has gone astray, she can't find him anywhere.
>> But I can hear another drum beating for the dead that rise,
>> Whom nature's beast fears as they come and all I see are dark eyes.
>>
>> They tell me to be discreet for all intended purposes,
>> They tell me revenge is sweet and from where they stand, I'm sure it is.
>> But I feel nothing for their game where beauty goes unrecognized,
>> All I feel is heat and flame and all I see are dark eyes.
>>
>> Oh, the French girl, she's in paradise and a drunken man is at the wheel,
>> Hunger pays a heavy price to the falling gods of speed and steel.
>> Oh, time is short and the days are sweet and passion rules the arrow that
>> flies,
>> A million faces at my feet but all I see are dark eyes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> on 5/24/05 11:07 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:
>>
>>> Not one of his best known, but one of his best:
>>>
>>> MAN OF PEACE
>>>
>>> Look out your window, baby, there's a scene you'd like to catch,
>>> The band is playing "Dixie," a man got his hand outstretched.
>>> Could be the Fuhrer
>>> Could be the local priest.
>>> You know sometimes
>>> Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>
>>> He got a sweet gift of gab, he got a harmonious tongue,
>>> He knows every song of love that ever has been sung.
>>> Good intentions can be evil,
>>> Both hands can be full of grease.
>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>
>>> Well, first he's in the background, then he's in the front,
>>> Both eyes are looking like they're on a rabbit hunt.
>>> Nobody can see through him,
>>> No, not even the Chief of Police.
>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>
>>> Well, he catch you when you're hoping for a glimpse of the sun,
>>> Catch you when your troubles feel like they weigh a ton.
>>> He could be standing next to you,
>>> The person that you'd notice least.
>>> I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>
>>> Well, he can be fascinating, he can be dull,
>>> He can ride down Niagara Falls in the barrels of your skull.
>>> I can smell something cooking,
>>> I can tell there's going to be a feast.
>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>
>>> He's a great humanitarian, he's a great philanthropist,
>>> He knows just where to touch you, honey, and how you like to be kissed.
>>> He'll put both his arms around you,
>>> You can feel the tender touch of the beast.
>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>
>>> Well, the howling wolf will howl tonight, the king snake will crawl,
>>> Trees that've stood for a thousand years suddenly will fall.
>>> Wanna get married? Do it now,
>>> Tomorrow all activity will cease.
>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>
>>> Somewhere Mama's weeping for her blue-eyed boy,
>>> She's holding them little white shoes and that little broken toy
>>> And he's following a star,
>>> The same one them three men followed from the East.
>>> I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>
>> ====================================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> Home Page:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> ====================================================
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue May 24 14:27:29 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:27:29 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
Message-ID: <200505241705.j4OH59PA231842@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Hey Tad---


could you backchannel me your address?
I wanna send you something if you'd be interested

C

----------
>From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
>Date: Tue, May 24, 2005, 8:52 AM
>

> Chris - it's on my list.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Stroffolino " <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
>
>
>> Yes on both those lyrics....
>>
>> Anybody read that rather silly Christopher Ricks book---
>> some good readings at times (especially of "BLIND WILLIE McTELL" from this
>> some period) but hundreds of pages of dross and silliness to wade
>> through....
>>       still I'm glad he did it....
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> ----------
>>>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>>>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
>> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
>>>Date: Tue, May 24, 2005, 8:14 AM
>>>
>>
>>> Yeah, I was just musing elsewhere about how, even on his lesser albums,
>>> there are little gems.
>>>
>>> Here's one of my favorites, from the relatively neglected *Empire
>>> Burlesque*
>>> album from 1985.
>>>
>>> Dark Eyes
>>>
>>> Oh, the gentlemen are talking and the midnight moon is on the riverside,
>>> They're drinking up and walking and it is time for me to slide.
>>> I live in another world where life and death are memorized,
>>> Where the earth is strung with lovers' pearls and all I see are dark
>>> eyes.
>>>
>>> A cock is crowing far away and another soldier's deep in prayer,
>>> Some mother's child has gone astray, she can't find him anywhere.
>>> But I can hear another drum beating for the dead that rise,
>>> Whom nature's beast fears as they come and all I see are dark eyes.
>>>
>>> They tell me to be discreet for all intended purposes,
>>> They tell me revenge is sweet and from where they stand, I'm sure it is.
>>> But I feel nothing for their game where beauty goes unrecognized,
>>> All I feel is heat and flame and all I see are dark eyes.
>>>
>>> Oh, the French girl, she's in paradise and a drunken man is at the wheel,
>>> Hunger pays a heavy price to the falling gods of speed and steel.
>>> Oh, time is short and the days are sweet and passion rules the arrow that
>>> flies,
>>> A million faces at my feet but all I see are dark eyes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> on 5/24/05 11:07 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not one of his best known, but one of his best:
>>>>
>>>> MAN OF PEACE
>>>>
>>>> Look out your window, baby, there's a scene you'd like to catch,
>>>> The band is playing "Dixie," a man got his hand outstretched.
>>>> Could be the Fuhrer
>>>> Could be the local priest.
>>>> You know sometimes
>>>> Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>>
>>>> He got a sweet gift of gab, he got a harmonious tongue,
>>>> He knows every song of love that ever has been sung.
>>>> Good intentions can be evil,
>>>> Both hands can be full of grease.
>>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>>
>>>> Well, first he's in the background, then he's in the front,
>>>> Both eyes are looking like they're on a rabbit hunt.
>>>> Nobody can see through him,
>>>> No, not even the Chief of Police.
>>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>>
>>>> Well, he catch you when you're hoping for a glimpse of the sun,
>>>> Catch you when your troubles feel like they weigh a ton.
>>>> He could be standing next to you,
>>>> The person that you'd notice least.
>>>> I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>>
>>>> Well, he can be fascinating, he can be dull,
>>>> He can ride down Niagara Falls in the barrels of your skull.
>>>> I can smell something cooking,
>>>> I can tell there's going to be a feast.
>>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>>
>>>> He's a great humanitarian, he's a great philanthropist,
>>>> He knows just where to touch you, honey, and how you like to be kissed.
>>>> He'll put both his arms around you,
>>>> You can feel the tender touch of the beast.
>>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>>
>>>> Well, the howling wolf will howl tonight, the king snake will crawl,
>>>> Trees that've stood for a thousand years suddenly will fall.
>>>> Wanna get married? Do it now,
>>>> Tomorrow all activity will cease.
>>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>>
>>>> Somewhere Mama's weeping for her blue-eyed boy,
>>>> She's holding them little white shoes and that little broken toy
>>>> And he's following a star,
>>>> The same one them three men followed from the East.
>>>> I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
>>>
>>> ====================================================
>>> David Graham
>>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>>> Home Page:
>>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>>> Poetry Library:
>>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>>> ====================================================
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Tue May 24 13:35:34 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:35:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
Message-ID: <200505241735.j4OHZYcc025828@mail1.atl.registeredsite.com>

9

Sylvester Stallone is tipped to direct "Poe," a film he wrote about the life of 
Edgar Allan Poe. Production is scheduled to begin in Europe this Fall 
reports Variety.  

The life of the legendary 19th century American poet and short story writer 
has long fascinated Stallone, who has been nurturing this project for years. 
He completed the screenplay for the film in 2002, but the project did not 
come together until this week. Robert Downey Jr. is Stallone's choice for the 
leading role. Nu Image/Millennium Films will finance, produce and 
distribute.  

Considered the father of the Gothic horror tale, Poe's life is rich with its own 
eerie details. He suffered from madness, depression and drugs, and was 
mysteriously found dead in a gutter in 1849. Among his most famous 
works were "The Raven", "The Telltale Heart" and "The Fall of the House 
of Usher."  



Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  


9



From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 24 13:49:36 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:49:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
References: <200505241735.j4OHZYcc025828@mail1.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <002901c56088$f63c68a0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Downey would actually be great as Poe.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:35 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE


> 9
>
> Sylvester Stallone is tipped to direct "Poe," a film he wrote about the 
> life of
> Edgar Allan Poe. Production is scheduled to begin in Europe this Fall
> reports Variety.
>
> The life of the legendary 19th century American poet and short story 
> writer
> has long fascinated Stallone, who has been nurturing this project for 
> years.
> He completed the screenplay for the film in 2002, but the project did not
> come together until this week. Robert Downey Jr. is Stallone's choice for 
> the
> leading role. Nu Image/Millennium Films will finance, produce and
> distribute.
>
> Considered the father of the Gothic horror tale, Poe's life is rich with 
> its own
> eerie details. He suffered from madness, depression and drugs, and was
> mysteriously found dead in a gutter in 1849. Among his most famous
> works were "The Raven", "The Telltale Heart" and "The Fall of the House
> of Usher."
>
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
>
> 9
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 24 13:53:14 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:53:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winters and Crane
Message-ID: <002d01c56089$78c2de30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Remember a couple of notes ago, when I talked about how I just faked my way through all this, but other people on the list actually knew stuff? Well, here's my chance to prove how much of a fake I am, and someone else's chance to prove how much they know. For an essay on Yvor Winters, I want to refer to   Thomas Parkinson's Hart Crane and Yvor Winters: Their Literary Correspondence. A book which I do not actually own. Does anyone? Is it basically the letters, or a biography built around the letters?

Yours in cheerful ignorance disguised as expertise,

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue May 24 14:30:43 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:30:43 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
References: <200505241735.j4OHZYcc025828@mail1.atl.registeredsite.com>
	<002901c56088$f63c68a0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <003f01c5608e$b1ca39d0$6c8d3052@ANNY>


Yes, no, we will see. He should need a very dry face, tormented, and 
sometimes Robert Downey Jr looks like a round spoilt kid, he was quite good 
in The Last Samurai, even if not that that impressive, but believable. This 
new part is tough. I am also curious to see how Stallone put down Poe, but I 
can easily imagine he'll have plenty of competent people around to help him.


From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:49 PM


> Downey would actually be great as Poe.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:35 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
>
>
>> 9
>>
>> Sylvester Stallone is tipped to direct "Poe," a film he wrote about the 
>> life of
>> Edgar Allan Poe. Production is scheduled to begin in Europe this Fall
>> reports Variety.
>>
>> The life of the legendary 19th century American poet and short story 
>> writer
>> has long fascinated Stallone, who has been nurturing this project for 
>> years.
>> He completed the screenplay for the film in 2002, but the project did not
>> come together until this week. Robert Downey Jr. is Stallone's choice for 
>> the
>> leading role. Nu Image/Millennium Films will finance, produce and
>> distribute.
>>
>> Considered the father of the Gothic horror tale, Poe's life is rich with 
>> its own
>> eerie details. He suffered from madness, depression and drugs, and was
>> mysteriously found dead in a gutter in 1849. Among his most famous
>> works were "The Raven", "The Telltale Heart" and "The Fall of the House
>> of Usher."
>>
>>
>>
>> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>>
>>
>> 9
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From thom424 at aol.com  Tue May 24 14:56:32 2005
From: thom424 at aol.com (thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:56:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
Message-ID: <8C72EA96F4C8416-40C-AFE9F@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>

Yo! Annabel Lee!






thom tammaro
moorhead, mn


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue May 24 15:06:20 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:06:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE
In-Reply-To: <8C72EA96F4C8416-40C-AFE9F@MBLK-M20.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BEB8E55C.12525%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Robert Downey Jr. can do a drugged-out character in his sleep, sure.  But if
I were casting such a movie, I'd probably ask Daniel Day Lewis.  A much
better actor, he could tear up the part, and probably would be better for it
physically.

Sylvester Stallone, though?  As writer *and* director.  My, my.  I don't
have high hopes.  I fear they'll play up the Mad Genius myth, and downplay
the actual writerly stuff.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue May 24 15:10:17 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 21:10:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cambridge poetry summit - England
Message-ID: <00a701c56094$38d50cc0$6c8d3052@ANNY>

The Cambridge Poetry Summit 2005
http://www.cambridgepoetry.org/summit.htm?PHPSESSID=0815f4944ebcb17a3dd689a929bcf372

Friday 24th to Sunday 26th June

The second international festival of poetry

to be held at THE QUEENS' BUILDING
EMMANUEL COLLEGE
University of Cambridge
St Andrew's Street
Cambridge CB2 3AP

Friday 24th to Sunday 26th June

The second international festival of poetry

to be held at THE QUEENS' BUILDING
EMMANUEL COLLEGE
University of Cambridge
St Andrew's Street
Cambridge CB2 3AP
Friday 24th to Sunday 26th June

The second international festival of poetry

to be held at THE QUEENS' BUILDING
EMMANUEL COLLEGE
University of Cambridge
St Andrew's Street
Cambridge CB2 3AP

>??????????

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Tue May 24 15:23:17 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:23:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE
References: <BEB8E55C.12525%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <004a01c56096$0a2f9aa0$15b35040@Helen>

and in the last scene poe will duke it out with ???your guess here ??? and 
end up dead in a gutter
or maybe he'll win!
h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 3:06 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE


> Robert Downey Jr. can do a drugged-out character in his sleep, sure.  But 
> if
> I were casting such a movie, I'd probably ask Daniel Day Lewis.  A much
> better actor, he could tear up the part, and probably would be better for 
> it
> physically.
>
> Sylvester Stallone, though?  As writer *and* director.  My, my.  I don't
> have high hopes.  I fear they'll play up the Mad Genius myth, and downplay
> the actual writerly stuff.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com



From lattaj at umich.edu  Tue May 24 15:33:34 2005
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:33:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE
In-Reply-To: <004a01c56096$0a2f9aa0$15b35040@Helen>
References: <BEB8E55C.12525%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<004a01c56096$0a2f9aa0$15b35040@Helen>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0505241530500.13589@arkanoid.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>


What I'm thinking is that Ron Silliman would be *perfect*
for the part of Henry Theodore Tuckerman, the man that
Poe was gunning for when he coined the phrase "School
of Quietude."

JL



From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Tue May 24 15:40:33 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:40:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winters and Crane
In-Reply-To: <002d01c56089$78c2de30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <002d01c56089$78c2de30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <33abf275050524124048fe49ae@mail.gmail.com>

Tad:

You actually looking for the book, or just a synopsis? If you need the
book, Marist has it. I can probably get it into my grubby hands, if
you want me to try:

Hart Crane and Yvor Winters : their literary correspondence / Thomas... 
Relevance:   
Database: Marist College 
Main Author: Parkinson, Thomas Francis, 1920-  
Title: Hart Crane and Yvor Winters : their literary correspondence /
Thomas Parkinson.
Primary Material: Book 
Publisher: Berkeley : University of California Press, c1978. 
Description: xxiii, 174 p. ; 24 cm. 
Notes: Includes index.
Bibliography: p. [167]-168. 
Subject(s): Crane, Hart, 1899-1932. Correspondence.
Winters, Yvor, 1900-1968 Correspondence.
Poets, American 20th century Correspondence.  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Database: Marist College 
Location: Circulating Books - 1st Floor 
Call Number: PS3505.R272 Z547 
Number of Items: 1 
Status: Available 


On 5/24/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
> Remember a couple of notes ago, when I talked about how I just faked my way
> through all this, but other people on the list actually knew stuff? Well,
> here's my chance to prove how much of a fake I am, and someone else's chance
> to prove how much they know. For an essay on Yvor Winters, I want to refer
> to   Thomas Parkinson's Hart Crane and Yvor Winters: Their Literary
> Correspondence. A book which I do not actually own. Does anyone? Is it
> basically the letters, or a biography built around the letters?
>  
> Yours in cheerful ignorance disguised as expertise,
>  
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
"No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake



From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 24 16:04:01 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:04:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
References: <200505241735.j4OHZYcc025828@mail1.atl.registeredsite.com><002901c56088$f63c68a0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<003f01c5608e$b1ca39d0$6c8d3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <000d01c5609b$bdc74e00$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

He was also very impressive as Chaplin. He's got incredible range as an 
actor, and I think he could play Poe.
Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] POE


>
> Yes, no, we will see. He should need a very dry face, tormented, and 
> sometimes Robert Downey Jr looks like a round spoilt kid, he was quite 
> good in The Last Samurai, even if not that that impressive, but 
> believable. This new part is tough. I am also curious to see how Stallone 
> put down Poe, but I can easily imagine he'll have plenty of competent 
> people around to help him.
>
>
> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:49 PM
>
>
>> Downey would actually be great as Poe.
>>
>>
>> Tad Richards
>> www.opus40.org
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
>> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:35 PM
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
>>
>>
>>> 9
>>>
>>> Sylvester Stallone is tipped to direct "Poe," a film he wrote about the 
>>> life of
>>> Edgar Allan Poe. Production is scheduled to begin in Europe this Fall
>>> reports Variety.
>>>
>>> The life of the legendary 19th century American poet and short story 
>>> writer
>>> has long fascinated Stallone, who has been nurturing this project for 
>>> years.
>>> He completed the screenplay for the film in 2002, but the project did 
>>> not
>>> come together until this week. Robert Downey Jr. is Stallone's choice 
>>> for the
>>> leading role. Nu Image/Millennium Films will finance, produce and
>>> distribute.
>>>
>>> Considered the father of the Gothic horror tale, Poe's life is rich with 
>>> its own
>>> eerie details. He suffered from madness, depression and drugs, and was
>>> mysteriously found dead in a gutter in 1849. Among his most famous
>>> works were "The Raven", "The Telltale Heart" and "The Fall of the House
>>> of Usher."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>>>
>>>
>>> 9
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 24 16:04:54 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:04:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
Message-ID: <ce.69272e83.2fc4e2e6@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/24/2005 12:39:15 PM Central Daylight Time, 
editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com writes: 
> Sylvester Stallone is tipped to direct "Poe," a film he wrote about the 
> life of 
> Edgar Allan Poe. Production is scheduled to begin in Europe this Fall 
> reports Variety.  
> 
> The life of the legendary 19th century American poet and short story writer 
> has long fascinated Stallone, who has been nurturing this project for years. 
> 
> He completed the screenplay for the film in 2002, but the project did not 
> come together until this week. Robert Downey Jr. is Stallone's choice for 
> the 
> leading role. Nu Image/Millennium Films will finance, produce and 
> distribute.  
> 
> Considered the father of the Gothic horror tale, Poe's life is rich with its 
> own 
> eerie details. He suffered from madness, depression and drugs, and was 
> mysteriously found dead in a gutter in 1849. Among his most famous 
> works were "The Raven", "The Telltale Heart" and "The Fall of the House 
> of Usher."  
> 
> 
> 
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  
> 
> 
Johnny Depp!
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From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 24 16:05:27 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:05:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winters and Crane
References: <002d01c56089$78c2de30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<33abf275050524124048fe49ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c5609b$f09aee90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I just wanna not sound stupid when I say either "biography: or "collection 
of letters."


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Donna Casinghino" <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Winters and Crane


> Tad:
>
> You actually looking for the book, or just a synopsis? If you need the
> book, Marist has it. I can probably get it into my grubby hands, if
> you want me to try:
>
> Hart Crane and Yvor Winters : their literary correspondence / Thomas...
> Relevance:
> Database: Marist College
> Main Author: Parkinson, Thomas Francis, 1920-
> Title: Hart Crane and Yvor Winters : their literary correspondence /
> Thomas Parkinson.
> Primary Material: Book
> Publisher: Berkeley : University of California Press, c1978.
> Description: xxiii, 174 p. ; 24 cm.
> Notes: Includes index.
> Bibliography: p. [167]-168.
> Subject(s): Crane, Hart, 1899-1932. Correspondence.
> Winters, Yvor, 1900-1968 Correspondence.
> Poets, American 20th century Correspondence.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Database: Marist College
> Location: Circulating Books - 1st Floor
> Call Number: PS3505.R272 Z547
> Number of Items: 1
> Status: Available
>
>
> On 5/24/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
>> Remember a couple of notes ago, when I talked about how I just faked my 
>> way
>> through all this, but other people on the list actually knew stuff? Well,
>> here's my chance to prove how much of a fake I am, and someone else's 
>> chance
>> to prove how much they know. For an essay on Yvor Winters, I want to 
>> refer
>> to   Thomas Parkinson's Hart Crane and Yvor Winters: Their Literary
>> Correspondence. A book which I do not actually own. Does anyone? Is it
>> basically the letters, or a biography built around the letters?
>>
>> Yours in cheerful ignorance disguised as expertise,
>>
>> Tad Richards
>> www.opus40.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------
> "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From clitophon at yahoo.com  Tue May 24 16:20:09 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:20:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Theft Muenchen
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050524202009.62610.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com>

Lady with the Ermine

I don't know, what is an ermine?  I thought, a vase or
a fur coat, turns out it's some kind of elongated
semi-rat.
being intensely self-regarding or intensely
self-posessed, Leonardo sought to throw the intensity
of his emotions into his art not his life.
Thus, the palette is typically smokey and darker hues
predominate.  It looks as if Michaelangelo had found a
cache of magic mushrooms or some other naturally grown
hallucinogenic which probably took his mind off all
the horrors of pre-modern living in Edenic Firenze and
then Roma, la Capella Sistina.
comment:  'If I'd listened to you I'd still be mending
old fireplaces, not painting this wonderful ceiling.' 
-  Michaelangelo de Pizzeria
Sandro Botticeli was evolving out of the Byzantine
ikons but his Venus still looks looks a) stupid b)
vapid c) vacant d) unindividuated e) v like a
Byzantine ikon of the Virgin
Primavera is about how Eden came to be destroyed
unleashing all kinds of immigrants and travellers onto
the Tuscan countryside to be eaten by flies, burnt by
the Italian sun, compose a sestina by the wayside, be
arrested by the carabinieri for tax evasion.
there are 9 different kinds of police there.  
a Tuscan sunwheel, a typical Tuscan ikon and v
contemporary.   i sold my first work to a dealer in
Italianate porcelain, art and other variegated knick
knacks exemplifying the Canatabrian countryside or the
Campania or Tarento or Messina even.   but since
absolutely no one outside Italy knows the difference,
he bought the paintings, passed them off as the work
of a minor Tuscan master and offered me 130 euroes for
the lot, just enough to pay off the hotel bill and
make it in time for the train to Milano.  By this time
I had become master of oil pastel.  The ones that
adhere like lipstick.

2)  Art Theft Muenchen

I went into Muenchen a complete innocent with a
revolution in art in my folder.  Being thrown out of a
large number of cafes, mistaken as a vagrant made my
way to a strange farm where I finished the tractor,
the one in the terrible dream of tractors taking over
the world.  Almost being eaten alive by bees and
evading a strange dog that seemed to have fallen in
love with my shoes, I swallowed the bottle of
Lowenbrau and hiked off to examine yet another theory
of why artists happen to be different from
swordswallowers, most politicians, rag & bone men,
military analysts, counter-insurgency students,
low-key-intensity-operations professors.  I sat in the
Altes Pinakothek with my tru luv, a red-haired goblet
from a town near Riga, but she wasn't riding a tiger
(if you remember the limerick).  Explaining that
parallel lines meet but exemplifying the theory with a
parachute, a rounded glass of Zinfandel and nearing
the kind of people that Joseph Beuys escaped from, I
decided I was too young to die and drove into a pile
of onlookers.
PM     


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html


From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Tue May 24 16:46:25 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:46:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winters and Crane
In-Reply-To: <002d01c56089$78c2de30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <002d01c56089$78c2de30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <33abf2750505241346530c1de@mail.gmail.com>

Already sent this link to Tad, but others might be interested in
reading it. Have to register on the NY Times site to read it, but
quick free registration.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/07/18/specials/crane-winters.html



On 5/24/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
> Remember a couple of notes ago, when I talked about how I just faked my way
> through all this, but other people on the list actually knew stuff? Well,
> here's my chance to prove how much of a fake I am, and someone else's chance
> to prove how much they know. For an essay on Yvor Winters, I want to refer
> to   Thomas Parkinson's Hart Crane and Yvor Winters: Their Literary
> Correspondence. A book which I do not actually own. Does anyone? Is it
> basically the letters, or a biography built around the letters?
>  
> Yours in cheerful ignorance disguised as expertise,
>  
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
"No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake



From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue May 24 16:56:18 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:56:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
In-Reply-To: <6d6de2a35285c46187a06c609f85bf6b@earthlink.net>
References: <BEB8B437.124EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<6d6de2a35285c46187a06c609f85bf6b@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505241655150.18726@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

And Kerry O'keefe is 51 today.  And unabashed...

On Tue, 24 May 2005, Halvard Johnson wrote:

>
> On May 24, 2005, at 11:36 AM, David Graham wrote:
>
> > Bob Dylan is 64 years old today.
>
> And will be for the next whole calendar year, or
> maybe forever.
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue May 24 17:10:43 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:10:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
In-Reply-To: <200505241705.j4OH59PA231842@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200505241705.j4OH59PA231842@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <1116969043.42939853c507e@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

Isn't Blood on the Tracks a near perfect album?  To my ear it is...


Quoting Chris Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net>:

> Hey Tad---
> 
> 
> could you backchannel me your address?
> I wanna send you something if you'd be interested
> 
> C
> 
> ----------
> >From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
> >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
> >Date: Tue, May 24, 2005, 8:52 AM
> >
> 
> > Chris - it's on my list.
> >
> >
> > Tad Richards
> > www.opus40.org
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Stroffolino " <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
> >
> >
> >> Yes on both those lyrics....
> >>
> >> Anybody read that rather silly Christopher Ricks book---
> >> some good readings at times (especially of "BLIND WILLIE McTELL" from
> this
> >> some period) but hundreds of pages of dross and silliness to wade
> >> through....
> >>       still I'm glad he did it....
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> ----------
> >>>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> >>>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> >> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >>>Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
> >>>Date: Tue, May 24, 2005, 8:14 AM
> >>>
> >>
> >>> Yeah, I was just musing elsewhere about how, even on his lesser albums,
> >>> there are little gems.
> >>>
> >>> Here's one of my favorites, from the relatively neglected *Empire
> >>> Burlesque*
> >>> album from 1985.
> >>>
> >>> Dark Eyes
> >>>
> >>> Oh, the gentlemen are talking and the midnight moon is on the riverside,
> >>> They're drinking up and walking and it is time for me to slide.
> >>> I live in another world where life and death are memorized,
> >>> Where the earth is strung with lovers' pearls and all I see are dark
> >>> eyes.
> >>>
> >>> A cock is crowing far away and another soldier's deep in prayer,
> >>> Some mother's child has gone astray, she can't find him anywhere.
> >>> But I can hear another drum beating for the dead that rise,
> >>> Whom nature's beast fears as they come and all I see are dark eyes.
> >>>
> >>> They tell me to be discreet for all intended purposes,
> >>> They tell me revenge is sweet and from where they stand, I'm sure it is.
> >>> But I feel nothing for their game where beauty goes unrecognized,
> >>> All I feel is heat and flame and all I see are dark eyes.
> >>>
> >>> Oh, the French girl, she's in paradise and a drunken man is at the
> wheel,
> >>> Hunger pays a heavy price to the falling gods of speed and steel.
> >>> Oh, time is short and the days are sweet and passion rules the arrow
> that
> >>> flies,
> >>> A million faces at my feet but all I see are dark eyes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> on 5/24/05 11:07 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Not one of his best known, but one of his best:
> >>>>
> >>>> MAN OF PEACE
> >>>>
> >>>> Look out your window, baby, there's a scene you'd like to catch,
> >>>> The band is playing "Dixie," a man got his hand outstretched.
> >>>> Could be the Fuhrer
> >>>> Could be the local priest.
> >>>> You know sometimes
> >>>> Satan comes as a man of peace.
> >>>>
> >>>> He got a sweet gift of gab, he got a harmonious tongue,
> >>>> He knows every song of love that ever has been sung.
> >>>> Good intentions can be evil,
> >>>> Both hands can be full of grease.
> >>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, first he's in the background, then he's in the front,
> >>>> Both eyes are looking like they're on a rabbit hunt.
> >>>> Nobody can see through him,
> >>>> No, not even the Chief of Police.
> >>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, he catch you when you're hoping for a glimpse of the sun,
> >>>> Catch you when your troubles feel like they weigh a ton.
> >>>> He could be standing next to you,
> >>>> The person that you'd notice least.
> >>>> I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, he can be fascinating, he can be dull,
> >>>> He can ride down Niagara Falls in the barrels of your skull.
> >>>> I can smell something cooking,
> >>>> I can tell there's going to be a feast.
> >>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> >>>>
> >>>> He's a great humanitarian, he's a great philanthropist,
> >>>> He knows just where to touch you, honey, and how you like to be kissed.
> >>>> He'll put both his arms around you,
> >>>> You can feel the tender touch of the beast.
> >>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, the howling wolf will howl tonight, the king snake will crawl,
> >>>> Trees that've stood for a thousand years suddenly will fall.
> >>>> Wanna get married? Do it now,
> >>>> Tomorrow all activity will cease.
> >>>> You know that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> >>>>
> >>>> Somewhere Mama's weeping for her blue-eyed boy,
> >>>> She's holding them little white shoes and that little broken toy
> >>>> And he's following a star,
> >>>> The same one them three men followed from the East.
> >>>> I hear that sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.
> >>>
> >>> ====================================================
> >>> David Graham
> >>> grahamd at ripon.edu
> >>> Home Page:
> >>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >>> Poetry Library:
> >>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >>> ====================================================
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 24 17:19:55 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:19:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
References: <BEB8B437.124EB%grahamd@ripon.edu><6d6de2a35285c46187a06c609f85bf6b@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505241655150.18726@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <003e01c560a6$5895d820$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Hey - if Dylan stays at 64, you'll catch him in 13 years. Happy Birthday, 
Kerry!


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob


> And Kerry O'keefe is 51 today.  And unabashed...
>
> On Tue, 24 May 2005, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 24, 2005, at 11:36 AM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>> > Bob Dylan is 64 years old today.
>>
>> And will be for the next whole calendar year, or
>> maybe forever.
>>
>> Hal
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> halvard at earthlink.net
>> halvard at gmail.com
>> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 24 17:29:11 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:29:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE
References: <BEB8E55C.12525%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <008a01c560a7$a2ce6f50$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Day Lewis might be a little too old? And Downey has a lot more range than 
that.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 3:06 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE


> Robert Downey Jr. can do a drugged-out character in his sleep, sure.  But 
> if
> I were casting such a movie, I'd probably ask Daniel Day Lewis.  A much
> better actor, he could tear up the part, and probably would be better for 
> it
> physically.
>
> Sylvester Stallone, though?  As writer *and* director.  My, my.  I don't
> have high hopes.  I fear they'll play up the Mad Genius myth, and downplay
> the actual writerly stuff.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 24 17:45:33 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:45:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE
Message-ID: <1b8.13dc82c8.2fc4fa7d@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/24/2005 4:30:23 PM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org 
writes: 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> Day Lewis might be a little too old? And Downey has a lot more range than 
> that.
Depp, dammit.  Depp!
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From tad at opus40.org  Tue May 24 17:57:51 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:57:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE
References: <1b8.13dc82c8.2fc4fa7d@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01c560ab$a3a7e290$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Depp would be great. Perfect, actually. Downey would still be good.
Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Casting POE


  In a message dated 5/24/2005 4:30:23 PM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: 

    X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
    Day Lewis might be a little too old? And Downey has a lot more range than 
    that.

  Depp, dammit.  Depp! 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue May 24 18:02:40 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:02:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE
In-Reply-To: <00ad01c560ab$a3a7e290$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BEB90EB0.1254A%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/24/05 4:57 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

Depp would be great. Perfect, actually. Downey would still be good.
====================

Agreed.  Anyone but Stallone himself!



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu  Tue May 24 22:26:39 2005
From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 21:26:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
In-Reply-To: <200505241735.j4OHZYcc025828@mail1.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050524212405.01b09118@cyrus.undsmhs.net>

At 01:35 PM 5/24/2005 -0400, editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com wrote:
>9
>
>Sylvester Stallone is tipped to direct "Poe," a film he wrote about the 
>life of
>Edgar Allan Poe. Production is scheduled to begin in Europe this Fall
>reports Variety.
>
>The life of the legendary 19th century American poet and short story writer
>has long fascinated Stallone, who has been nurturing this project for years.
>He completed the screenplay for the film in 2002, but the project did not
>come together until this week. Robert Downey Jr. is Stallone's choice for the
>leading role. Nu Image/Millennium Films will finance, produce and
>distribute.
>
>Considered the father of the Gothic horror tale, Poe's life is rich with 
>its own
>eerie details. He suffered from madness, depression and drugs, and was
>mysteriously found dead in a gutter in 1849. Among his most famous
>works were "The Raven", "The Telltale Heart" and "The Fall of the House
>of Usher."
>
>
>
>Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino

It being Hollywood and all, I offer even money to any takers that either the
opening or closing scene will feature an unidentified character in archaic
formal dress leaving a rose and a bottle of whiskey on Poe's grave.

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed May 25 01:28:24 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 07:28:24 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050524212405.01b09118@cyrus.undsmhs.net>
Message-ID: <007f01c560ea$92f990d0$47e83652@ANNY>


I agree with Johnny Depp more than with Downey, sorry Tad.

Maybe not really a rose and a bottle of whiskey, but a red rose that in the 
moonlight brings back to a bottle of whiskey, that could easily be, :-)


From: "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:26 AM


> At 01:35 PM 5/24/2005 -0400, editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com wrote:
>>9
>>
>>Sylvester Stallone is tipped to direct "Poe," a film he wrote about the 
>>life of
>>Edgar Allan Poe. Production is scheduled to begin in Europe this Fall
>>reports Variety.
>>
>>The life of the legendary 19th century American poet and short story 
>>writer
>>has long fascinated Stallone, who has been nurturing this project for 
>>years.
>>He completed the screenplay for the film in 2002, but the project did not
>>come together until this week. Robert Downey Jr. is Stallone's choice for 
>>the
>>leading role. Nu Image/Millennium Films will finance, produce and
>>distribute.
>>
>>Considered the father of the Gothic horror tale, Poe's life is rich with 
>>its own
>>eerie details. He suffered from madness, depression and drugs, and was
>>mysteriously found dead in a gutter in 1849. Among his most famous
>>works were "The Raven", "The Telltale Heart" and "The Fall of the House
>>of Usher."
>>
>>
>>
>>Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
> It being Hollywood and all, I offer even money to any takers that either 
> the
> opening or closing scene will feature an unidentified character in archaic
> formal dress leaving a rose and a bottle of whiskey on Poe's grave.
>
> Richard W. Wilsnack
> rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed May 25 01:36:19 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:36:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog -- Photos and Headbutting
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050525003554.027e40a8@mail.ilstu.edu>

The Carrboro International Poetry Festival
         Photos w/ Captions --
         2 Days with Ingenious Friends


Linh Dinh Translates My Buttocks into Vietnamese



Black Humor in Poetry
(But no Mention of Breton?)


Kent Johnson and Forrest Gander
Headbutt a Blind Man
[in the Rooms of Christopher Smart in Pembroke College]



That There are In Fact Titties



A Defense of Poetry
is Loved by Frat Boys

http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/

__________________
Gabriel Gudding
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, IL  61790
office 309.438.5284
gmguddi at ilstu.edu  



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed May 25 01:41:14 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 07:41:14 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Translation rights
Message-ID: <009401c560ec$5e3a8910$47e83652@ANNY>


I need to ask a question - hopefully I am not exploiting the list for the solution of what has become a personal problem, 

Are there any translations rights?

For example:

if X tells me that he wants his translation of Y copyrighted on the Poets' Corner, am I infringing any other rights if I put the symbol of the copyright close to his/her name at the end of the said translation (diligently done by X)? 

I was sucked into a similar problem against my wish and will, you might be able to let me see the question clearly.
Thank you very much,


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 


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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 25 09:53:02 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:53:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
Message-ID: <1a8.387cd380.2fc5dd3e@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/24/2005 9:27:23 PM Central Daylight Time, 
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu writes: 
> It being Hollywood and all, I offer even money to any takers that either 
> the
> opening or closing scene will feature an unidentified character in archaic
> formal dress leaving a rose and a bottle of whiskey on Poe's grave.
Bottle of brandy, I believe.
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From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Wed May 25 11:04:46 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:04:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
Message-ID: <200505251504.j4PF4kFe006334@mail7.atl.registeredsite.com>

9


According to Justin Kaplan's biography, A Life, Whitman "was apparently 
the only writer of any standing present at Poe's reburial in Baltimore in 
1875."  

But why would Sly be filming in Europe?  Did Poe ever travel to Europe?  I 
don't think so.  Perhaps the film is going to have some sort of framework 
that takes place in Europe.  I would put that in France.  And then who is 
going to play Baudelaire?  

For sure Depp in Sleepy Hollow was some real gothic show.  And I think 
he's a better actor than Downy.  (Maybe this film ought to be done by Tim 
Burton!)  

Poe cottage in The Bronx is a forlorn place.  And it's haunted!        

    

Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino


9? 




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed May 25 13:16:42 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:16:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
In-Reply-To: <200505251504.j4PF4kFe006334@mail7.atl.registeredsite.com>
References: <200505251504.j4PF4kFe006334@mail7.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <f64dd8e0298f9fb704423e41be125f33@earthlink.net>

> But why would Sly be filming in Europe?  Did Poe ever travel to 
> Europe?  I
> don't think so.  Perhaps the film is going to have some sort of 
> framework
> that takes place in Europe.  I would put that in France.  And then who 
> is
> going to play Baudelaire?

Gary Oldman, natch--who might also be a good Poe, or maybe he
could play both roles.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed May 25 13:46:38 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:46:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] POE
Message-ID: <213.182523f.2fc613fe@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/25/2005 12:21:27 PM Central Daylight Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes: 
> And then who 
> >is
> >going to play Baudelaire?
Gerard Depardieu, natch.
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu May 26 11:02:33 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505241655150.18726@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
References: <BEB8B437.124EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<6d6de2a35285c46187a06c609f85bf6b@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505241655150.18726@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261101560.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been no
posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu May 26 11:08:30 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:08:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261101560.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
References: <BEB8B437.124EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<6d6de2a35285c46187a06c609f85bf6b@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505241655150.18726@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261101560.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05052608086453b9a8@mail.gmail.com>

Folks do seem rather quiet.
 Hello out there! (echo: "Hello, hello, hello . . . ")
 I suppose I need to make a snide comment about visual poetry to get people 
on their hind legs again . . . 
 Jeff

 On 5/26/05, Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu> wrote: 
> 
> This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been no
> posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May 26 11:11:18 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:11:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261101560.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <BEBB5146.125E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Your computer seems to be working.

Me?  I've been reading Roethke this morning, which seems like a
springtime-to-summer thing to do.

Here's a thought:  

"Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. It's what
everything else isn't."

    --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of Theodore Roethke*




on 5/26/05 10:02 AM, Kerry O'Keefe at jkok at hfa.umass.edu wrote:

> This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been no
> posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> 
> 

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Thu May 26 11:28:10 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <BEBB5146.125E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261101560.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<BEBB5146.125E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <33abf2750505260828585f37ad@mail.gmail.com>

I thought it was just me. The list has been awfully quiet lately. I
need things to read--keep up the chatter, folks.

I've been reading Frost most recently. I suppose this one's kind of fitting:

The Most of It

He thought he kept the universe alone;
For all the voice in answer he could wake
Was but the mocking echo of his own
>From some tree-hidden cliff across the lake.
Some morning from the boulder-broken beach
He would cry out on life, that what it wants
Is not its own love back in copy speech,
But counter-love, original response.
And nothing ever came of what he cried
Unless it was the embodiment that crashed
In the cliff's talus on the other side,
And then in the far distant water splashed,
But after a time allowed for it to swim,
Instead of proving human when it neared
And someone else additional to him,
As a great buck it powerfully appeared,
Pushing the crumpled water up ahead,
And landed pouring like a waterfall,
And stumbled through the rocks with horny tread,
And forced the underbrush, and that was all.

 


On 5/26/05, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> Your computer seems to be working.
> 
> Me?  I've been reading Roethke this morning, which seems like a
> springtime-to-summer thing to do.
> 
> Here's a thought:
> 
> "Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. It's what
> everything else isn't."
> 
>    --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of Theodore Roethke*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on 5/26/05 10:02 AM, Kerry O'Keefe at jkok at hfa.umass.edu wrote:
> 
> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been no
> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> >
> >
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
"No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake



From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu May 26 11:37:02 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <33abf2750505241346530c1de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050526153702.40078.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com>

can anyone give me basic information about these
writers?  PM


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu May 26 11:50:05 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:50:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <BEBB5146.125E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEBB5146.125E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261139510.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

I am a little staggered, here, David.  This morning,at around 7:17 a.m.,
in that hazy blissful ten minutes after getting the kids out the door, I
stood in my little office and stared right at that particular volume
sitting in a
pile on the vcr - and thought something like - I have some kind of
relationship with this world of poetry.  It was a quiet, humble,
springtime to summer moment indeed.

Haste is the enemy of poetry, I believe that much is true.  I love my cell
phone, and I like my computer, but I am also certain they change how my
brain works and what my spirit registers.  I watch the greed with which I
go running to check email.  The fact that solitude is never really
solitude with the phone and how does this affect the listening.  Or
knowing or finding...Being a geminian sort, part of me wants to hurl
myself gluttonously into the techno world - then the Basho (Gilbert) side
of me refrains, remembers the real goods can only be found when I am
slowed down.  That is, probably, my most commonly made sacrifice to
the poetry gods... hurrying.

I love that Roethke quote to the effect:  May my silences be more
accurate.

Something like that.  The beauty of what is NOT spoken in a poem.

Thanks for poppling up.  God knows, I'm glad this fiendish thing is
working...

On Thu, 26 May 2005, David Graham wrote:

> Your computer seems to be working.
>
> Me?  I've been reading Roethke this morning, which seems like a
> springtime-to-summer thing to do.
>
> Here's a thought:
>
> "Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. It's what
> everything else isn't."
>
>     --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of Theodore Roethke*
>
>
>
>
> on 5/26/05 10:02 AM, Kerry O'Keefe at jkok at hfa.umass.edu wrote:
>
> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been no
> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> >
> >
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May 26 12:05:57 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:05:57 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Great Fire of London
Message-ID: <008b01c5620c$ce048720$57d83052@ANNY>

May 31, 1669


Samuel Pepys   (1633 - 1703)


The Last of Pepys's Diary

by Steve King

On this day in 1666, the Great Fire of London began, enkindled by the King's baker when he failed to damp his oven properly. While only sixteen people died, eighty per cent of the City was razed over four days, leaving 436 acres leveled and 100,000 homeless. The Diary of Samuel Pepys is by no means our only eye-witness record, but it describes the event in compelling human detail, from the first horrified sighting of "an infinite great fire" on the 2nd to a walkabout on the 5th "with our feet ready to burn."


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 26 12:17:38 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:17:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
References: <BEBB5146.125E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261139510.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <006701c5620e$720f32b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

> Haste is the enemy of poetry<

I thought the enemy of poetry was anyone who put time, effort, or money into 
presenting poetry to the world, but left out burstnorm.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there


>I am a little staggered, here, David.  This morning,at around 7:17 a.m.,
> in that hazy blissful ten minutes after getting the kids out the door, I
> stood in my little office and stared right at that particular volume
> sitting in a
> pile on the vcr - and thought something like - I have some kind of
> relationship with this world of poetry.  It was a quiet, humble,
> springtime to summer moment indeed.
>
> Haste is the enemy of poetry, I believe that much is true.  I love my cell
> phone, and I like my computer, but I am also certain they change how my
> brain works and what my spirit registers.  I watch the greed with which I
> go running to check email.  The fact that solitude is never really
> solitude with the phone and how does this affect the listening.  Or
> knowing or finding...Being a geminian sort, part of me wants to hurl
> myself gluttonously into the techno world - then the Basho (Gilbert) side
> of me refrains, remembers the real goods can only be found when I am
> slowed down.  That is, probably, my most commonly made sacrifice to
> the poetry gods... hurrying.
>
> I love that Roethke quote to the effect:  May my silences be more
> accurate.
>
> Something like that.  The beauty of what is NOT spoken in a poem.
>
> Thanks for poppling up.  God knows, I'm glad this fiendish thing is
> working...
>
> On Thu, 26 May 2005, David Graham wrote:
>
>> Your computer seems to be working.
>>
>> Me?  I've been reading Roethke this morning, which seems like a
>> springtime-to-summer thing to do.
>>
>> Here's a thought:
>>
>> "Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. It's what
>> everything else isn't."
>>
>>     --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of Theodore Roethke*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> on 5/26/05 10:02 AM, Kerry O'Keefe at jkok at hfa.umass.edu wrote:
>>
>> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been 
>> > no
>> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ====================================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> Home Page:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> ====================================================
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 26 12:28:42 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:28:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
References: <BEBB5146.125E9%grahamd@ripon.edu><Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261139510.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<006701c5620e$720f32b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <008c01c5620f$feb3e0c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

A more serious response to Kerry - I agree completely. Poetry demands to be 
read in its own time, not to the beat of your daily routine. This is why 
those of who love it do love it, and it's also why those who hate it, hate 
it.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there


>> Haste is the enemy of poetry<
>
> I thought the enemy of poetry was anyone who put time, effort, or money 
> into presenting poetry to the world, but left out burstnorm.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
>
>
>>I am a little staggered, here, David.  This morning,at around 7:17 a.m.,
>> in that hazy blissful ten minutes after getting the kids out the door, I
>> stood in my little office and stared right at that particular volume
>> sitting in a
>> pile on the vcr - and thought something like - I have some kind of
>> relationship with this world of poetry.  It was a quiet, humble,
>> springtime to summer moment indeed.
>>
>> Haste is the enemy of poetry, I believe that much is true.  I love my 
>> cell
>> phone, and I like my computer, but I am also certain they change how my
>> brain works and what my spirit registers.  I watch the greed with which I
>> go running to check email.  The fact that solitude is never really
>> solitude with the phone and how does this affect the listening.  Or
>> knowing or finding...Being a geminian sort, part of me wants to hurl
>> myself gluttonously into the techno world - then the Basho (Gilbert) side
>> of me refrains, remembers the real goods can only be found when I am
>> slowed down.  That is, probably, my most commonly made sacrifice to
>> the poetry gods... hurrying.
>>
>> I love that Roethke quote to the effect:  May my silences be more
>> accurate.
>>
>> Something like that.  The beauty of what is NOT spoken in a poem.
>>
>> Thanks for poppling up.  God knows, I'm glad this fiendish thing is
>> working...
>>
>> On Thu, 26 May 2005, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> Your computer seems to be working.
>>>
>>> Me?  I've been reading Roethke this morning, which seems like a
>>> springtime-to-summer thing to do.
>>>
>>> Here's a thought:
>>>
>>> "Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. It's what
>>> everything else isn't."
>>>
>>>     --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of Theodore Roethke*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> on 5/26/05 10:02 AM, Kerry O'Keefe at jkok at hfa.umass.edu wrote:
>>>
>>> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been 
>>> > no
>>> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> ====================================================
>>> David Graham
>>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>>> Home Page:
>>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>>> Poetry Library:
>>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>>> ====================================================
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May 26 12:39:07 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:39:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unhasty
In-Reply-To: <008c01c5620f$feb3e0c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BEBB65DB.12603%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Always happy to have an excuse to haul out my favorite quotation from
Wendell Berry:

"One of the great practical uses of the literary disciplines, of course, is
to resist glibness--to slow language down and make it thoughtful.  This
accounts, particularly, for the influence of verse, in its formal aspect,
within the dynamics of the growth of language:  verse checks the merely
impulsive flow of speech, subjects it to another pulse, to measure, to
extralinguistic consideration; by inducing the hesitations of difficulty, it
admits into language the influence of the Muse and of musing."

--Wendell Berry, *Standing By Words*.





on 5/26/05 11:28 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

> A more serious response to Kerry - I agree completely. Poetry demands to be
> read in its own time, not to the beat of your daily routine. This is why
> those of who love it do love it, and it's also why those who hate it, hate
> it.
> 
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> 
> 
>>> Haste is the enemy of poetry<


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Thu May 26 12:37:40 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:37:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <008c01c5620f$feb3e0c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <BEBB5146.125E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261139510.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<006701c5620e$720f32b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<008c01c5620f$feb3e0c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <33abf27505052609376d6e1840@mail.gmail.com>

And then there's those who both love it and hate it--the poets.



On 5/26/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
> A more serious response to Kerry - I agree completely. Poetry demands to be
> read in its own time, not to the beat of your daily routine. This is why
> those of who love it do love it, and it's also why those who hate it, hate
> it.
> 
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> 
> 
> >> Haste is the enemy of poetry<
> >
> > I thought the enemy of poetry was anyone who put time, effort, or money
> > into presenting poetry to the world, but left out burstnorm.
> >
> >
> > Tad Richards
> > www.opus40.org
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> >
> >
> >>I am a little staggered, here, David.  This morning,at around 7:17 a.m.,
> >> in that hazy blissful ten minutes after getting the kids out the door, I
> >> stood in my little office and stared right at that particular volume
> >> sitting in a
> >> pile on the vcr - and thought something like - I have some kind of
> >> relationship with this world of poetry.  It was a quiet, humble,
> >> springtime to summer moment indeed.
> >>
> >> Haste is the enemy of poetry, I believe that much is true.  I love my
> >> cell
> >> phone, and I like my computer, but I am also certain they change how my
> >> brain works and what my spirit registers.  I watch the greed with which I
> >> go running to check email.  The fact that solitude is never really
> >> solitude with the phone and how does this affect the listening.  Or
> >> knowing or finding...Being a geminian sort, part of me wants to hurl
> >> myself gluttonously into the techno world - then the Basho (Gilbert) side
> >> of me refrains, remembers the real goods can only be found when I am
> >> slowed down.  That is, probably, my most commonly made sacrifice to
> >> the poetry gods... hurrying.
> >>
> >> I love that Roethke quote to the effect:  May my silences be more
> >> accurate.
> >>
> >> Something like that.  The beauty of what is NOT spoken in a poem.
> >>
> >> Thanks for poppling up.  God knows, I'm glad this fiendish thing is
> >> working...
> >>
> >> On Thu, 26 May 2005, David Graham wrote:
> >>
> >>> Your computer seems to be working.
> >>>
> >>> Me?  I've been reading Roethke this morning, which seems like a
> >>> springtime-to-summer thing to do.
> >>>
> >>> Here's a thought:
> >>>
> >>> "Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. It's what
> >>> everything else isn't."
> >>>
> >>>     --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of Theodore Roethke*
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> on 5/26/05 10:02 AM, Kerry O'Keefe at jkok at hfa.umass.edu wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been
> >>> > no
> >>> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> ====================================================
> >>> David Graham
> >>> grahamd at ripon.edu
> >>> Home Page:
> >>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >>> Poetry Library:
> >>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >>> ====================================================
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
"No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu May 26 13:13:22 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:13:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <20050526153702.40078.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <33abf2750505241346530c1de@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050526153702.40078.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0505261013762c82e9@mail.gmail.com>

Good info here (http://www.poets.org/poet.php/prmPID/9) on Randall Jarell.
 I like Jarrell, but he's been an acquired taste. My wife gave me his 
collected works a few years ago as a birthday present, and to be honest, 
it's one of the least-read books of poems that I own. I like "Next Day" and 
"The Lost World," but I get bit lost in some of his work--actually, I think 
it's more that I just don't care for some of his work. I do think that he 
wrote splendid essays. I can't remember the title, but he has a great one 
about Frost's "Home Burial." The essay is probably called "Frost's 'Home 
Burial'" or some such.
 Don't know Schwartz at all.
 Yours,
 Jeff Newberry

 On 5/26/05, Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> 
> can anyone give me basic information about these
> writers? PM
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu May 26 13:24:14 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:24:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <006701c5620e$720f32b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <BEBB5146.125E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261139510.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<006701c5620e$720f32b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261323130.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

Mole...what IS burstnorm?

Generally I don't make it through the endless arguing over theory threads,
so I never figure it out.

On Thu, 26 May 2005, The Old Mole wrote:

> > Haste is the enemy of poetry<
>
> I thought the enemy of poetry was anyone who put time, effort, or money into
> presenting poetry to the world, but left out burstnorm.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
>
>
> >I am a little staggered, here, David.  This morning,at around 7:17 a.m.,
> > in that hazy blissful ten minutes after getting the kids out the door, I
> > stood in my little office and stared right at that particular volume
> > sitting in a
> > pile on the vcr - and thought something like - I have some kind of
> > relationship with this world of poetry.  It was a quiet, humble,
> > springtime to summer moment indeed.
> >
> > Haste is the enemy of poetry, I believe that much is true.  I love my cell
> > phone, and I like my computer, but I am also certain they change how my
> > brain works and what my spirit registers.  I watch the greed with which I
> > go running to check email.  The fact that solitude is never really
> > solitude with the phone and how does this affect the listening.  Or
> > knowing or finding...Being a geminian sort, part of me wants to hurl
> > myself gluttonously into the techno world - then the Basho (Gilbert) side
> > of me refrains, remembers the real goods can only be found when I am
> > slowed down.  That is, probably, my most commonly made sacrifice to
> > the poetry gods... hurrying.
> >
> > I love that Roethke quote to the effect:  May my silences be more
> > accurate.
> >
> > Something like that.  The beauty of what is NOT spoken in a poem.
> >
> > Thanks for poppling up.  God knows, I'm glad this fiendish thing is
> > working...
> >
> > On Thu, 26 May 2005, David Graham wrote:
> >
> >> Your computer seems to be working.
> >>
> >> Me?  I've been reading Roethke this morning, which seems like a
> >> springtime-to-summer thing to do.
> >>
> >> Here's a thought:
> >>
> >> "Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. It's what
> >> everything else isn't."
> >>
> >>     --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of Theodore Roethke*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> on 5/26/05 10:02 AM, Kerry O'Keefe at jkok at hfa.umass.edu wrote:
> >>
> >> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been
> >> > no
> >> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> ====================================================
> >> David Graham
> >> grahamd at ripon.edu
> >> Home Page:
> >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >> Poetry Library:
> >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >> ====================================================
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu May 26 13:25:18 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0505261013762c82e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050526172518.37876.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com>

thanks for that.  I've been asked to review a book on
these writers + Sexton, Plath by W.W.Norton and I
needed more information on those writers.
All the writers suffered from extensive bouts of
mental instability and I wondered if this was a
coincidence since I had too?  Or is this just another
cause to grow a new psychosis?
did you like my piece 'Lady with Ermine'?  

--- Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:

> Good info here
> (http://www.poets.org/poet.php/prmPID/9) on Randall
> Jarell.
>  I like Jarrell, but he's been an acquired taste. My
> wife gave me his 
> collected works a few years ago as a birthday
> present, and to be honest, 
> it's one of the least-read books of poems that I
> own. I like "Next Day" and 
> "The Lost World," but I get bit lost in some of his
> work--actually, I think 
> it's more that I just don't care for some of his
> work. I do think that he 
> wrote splendid essays. I can't remember the title,
> but he has a great one 
> about Frost's "Home Burial." The essay is probably
> called "Frost's 'Home 
> Burial'" or some such.
>  Don't know Schwartz at all.
>  Yours,
>  Jeff Newberry
> 
>  On 5/26/05, Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
> wrote: 
> > 
> > can anyone give me basic information about these
> > writers? PM
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M.
> Shultz
> 
> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html


From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu May 26 13:28:35 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:28:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <20050526172518.37876.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050526172518.37876.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261327330.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

Did someone say "instability..."???

(her head pops up. she brightens visibly. Ahh, familiar ground...)




On Thu, 26 May 2005, Paul Murphy wrote:

> thanks for that.  I've been asked to review a book on
> these writers + Sexton, Plath by W.W.Norton and I
> needed more information on those writers.
> All the writers suffered from extensive bouts of
> mental instability and I wondered if this was a
> coincidence since I had too?  Or is this just another
> cause to grow a new psychosis?
> did you like my piece 'Lady with Ermine'?
>
> --- Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Good info here
> > (http://www.poets.org/poet.php/prmPID/9) on Randall
> > Jarell.
> >  I like Jarrell, but he's been an acquired taste. My
> > wife gave me his
> > collected works a few years ago as a birthday
> > present, and to be honest,
> > it's one of the least-read books of poems that I
> > own. I like "Next Day" and
> > "The Lost World," but I get bit lost in some of his
> > work--actually, I think
> > it's more that I just don't care for some of his
> > work. I do think that he
> > wrote splendid essays. I can't remember the title,
> > but he has a great one
> > about Frost's "Home Burial." The essay is probably
> > called "Frost's 'Home
> > Burial'" or some such.
> >  Don't know Schwartz at all.
> >  Yours,
> >  Jeff Newberry
> >
> >  On 5/26/05, Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > can anyone give me basic information about these
> > > writers? PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
> > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M.
> > Shultz
> >
> > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Discover Yahoo!
> Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out!
> http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May 26 13:34:47 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:34:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <20050526172518.37876.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BEBB72E7.12613%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/26/05 12:25 PM, Paul Murphy at clitophon at yahoo.com wrote:

> thanks for that.  I've been asked to review a book on
> these writers + Sexton, Plath by W.W.Norton and I
> needed more information on those writers.
> All the writers suffered from extensive bouts of
> mental instability and I wondered if this was a
> coincidence since I had too?  Or is this just another
> cause to grow a new psychosis?


There's a pretty extensive bibliography on the Schwartz/Jarrell generation
of American poets, and their personal addictions and maladies.  Also
included are, of course, Robert Lowell and John Berryman, both of whom wrote
about Schwartz, incidentally.

Schwartz is a thinly disguised character in Saul Bellow's novel *Humboldt's
Gift*, too.  

I've never been much taken with Schwartz's poetry, myself, but to his peers
he seemed like the one to watch, at least until he burned out & descended
into madness.  A very sad story.

Jarrell, who like the rest of these poets suffered from mental illness, was
killed by a car, and it was officially ruled an accident; but nearly
everyone agrees that it was a suicide.

I agree with Jeff about Jarrell's poems--there are a handful of very fine
ones, but, as Helen Vendler once put it, he put his talent into his poetry
and his genius into his criticism.




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu May 26 13:50:22 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:50:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
Message-ID: <1f7.a934790.2fc7665e@aol.com>

in this week's *new york times book review* (may 29), david lehman reviews 
adam kirsch's new book *the wounded surgeon: confessions and transformation in 
six american poets* (lowell, bishop, berryman, jarrell, schwartz, and plath. 
kirsch posits an interesting thesis: lowell was not a confessionalist. lehman 
finds calls it a "book with a flawed thesis, a few valuable readings of poems, 
and a mess of missed opportunities."

in this same issue, stephen metcalf reviews richird wilbur's *collected 
poems: 1943-2004*. in contrast to the above generation of poets, metcalf writes 
that "while his contemporaries donned leather jackets or publicly fell apart, 
richard wilbur maintained his reticence."

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
-------------- next part --------------
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 26 13:57:34 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:57:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
References: <BEBB5146.125E9%grahamd@ripon.edu><Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261139510.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu><006701c5620e$720f32b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261323130.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <002a01c5621c$6950da80$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Kerry - you and me both.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
To: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there


> Mole...what IS burstnorm?
>
> Generally I don't make it through the endless arguing over theory threads,
> so I never figure it out.
>
> On Thu, 26 May 2005, The Old Mole wrote:
>
>> > Haste is the enemy of poetry<
>>
>> I thought the enemy of poetry was anyone who put time, effort, or money 
>> into
>> presenting poetry to the world, but left out burstnorm.
>>
>>
>> Tad Richards
>> www.opus40.org
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
>> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
>>
>>
>> >I am a little staggered, here, David.  This morning,at around 7:17 a.m.,
>> > in that hazy blissful ten minutes after getting the kids out the door, 
>> > I
>> > stood in my little office and stared right at that particular volume
>> > sitting in a
>> > pile on the vcr - and thought something like - I have some kind of
>> > relationship with this world of poetry.  It was a quiet, humble,
>> > springtime to summer moment indeed.
>> >
>> > Haste is the enemy of poetry, I believe that much is true.  I love my 
>> > cell
>> > phone, and I like my computer, but I am also certain they change how my
>> > brain works and what my spirit registers.  I watch the greed with which 
>> > I
>> > go running to check email.  The fact that solitude is never really
>> > solitude with the phone and how does this affect the listening.  Or
>> > knowing or finding...Being a geminian sort, part of me wants to hurl
>> > myself gluttonously into the techno world - then the Basho (Gilbert) 
>> > side
>> > of me refrains, remembers the real goods can only be found when I am
>> > slowed down.  That is, probably, my most commonly made sacrifice to
>> > the poetry gods... hurrying.
>> >
>> > I love that Roethke quote to the effect:  May my silences be more
>> > accurate.
>> >
>> > Something like that.  The beauty of what is NOT spoken in a poem.
>> >
>> > Thanks for poppling up.  God knows, I'm glad this fiendish thing is
>> > working...
>> >
>> > On Thu, 26 May 2005, David Graham wrote:
>> >
>> >> Your computer seems to be working.
>> >>
>> >> Me?  I've been reading Roethke this morning, which seems like a
>> >> springtime-to-summer thing to do.
>> >>
>> >> Here's a thought:
>> >>
>> >> "Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. It's what
>> >> everything else isn't."
>> >>
>> >>     --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of Theodore Roethke*
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> on 5/26/05 10:02 AM, Kerry O'Keefe at jkok at hfa.umass.edu wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have 
>> >> > been
>> >> > no
>> >> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ====================================================
>> >> David Graham
>> >> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> >> Home Page:
>> >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> >> Poetry Library:
>> >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> >> ====================================================
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> New-Poetry mailing list
>> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 26 14:01:11 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:01:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
References: <1f7.a934790.2fc7665e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004001c5621c$e92f6190$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

James Atlas has the best bio of Delmore Schwartz.

 Eileen Simpson's Poets in Their Youth has good stuff on all those folks.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Thom424 at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz


in this week's *new york times book review* (may 29), david lehman reviews 
adam kirsch's new book *the wounded surgeon: confessions and transformation 
in six american poets* (lowell, bishop, berryman, jarrell, schwartz, and 
plath. kirsch posits an interesting thesis: lowell was not a 
confessionalist. lehman finds calls it a "book with a flawed thesis, a few 
valuable readings of poems, and a mess of missed opportunities."

in this same issue, stephen metcalf reviews richird wilbur's *collected 
poems: 1943-2004*. in contrast to the above generation of poets, metcalf 
writes that "while his contemporaries donned leather jackets or publicly 
fell apart, richard wilbur maintained his reticence."

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 




From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu May 26 14:08:49 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:08:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <BEBB72E7.12613%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <20050526180849.62782.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>

why do you think that there was so much instability
among these writers?  Because their work was
confessional and thereby personal?
By the way, how do you descend into madness?  If you
think about it, this is a peculiar phrase as if
madness were somehow down there somewhere.  I suppose
we traditionally predicate Hell as being below ground
too and also Hades, in fact anywhere where the damned
generally hang out.  But can madness not also be
divine or beatific even?  Psychiatrists sometimes call
schizophrenia a 'living death' but is it not really a
more intensely beautiful way of living?  Don't we
always condescend to those who are different and refer
to them as experiencing a 'living death'? 
Philosophically speaking, one cannot be both alive and
dead simultaneously, so why is this oxymoron or
confused metaphor or piece of poetasting used at all? 
It reminds me of 'emotional intelligence', a term I
debated in earlier mails.

--- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> on 5/26/05 12:25 PM, Paul Murphy at
> clitophon at yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> > thanks for that.  I've been asked to review a book
> on
> > these writers + Sexton, Plath by W.W.Norton and I
> > needed more information on those writers.
> > All the writers suffered from extensive bouts of
> > mental instability and I wondered if this was a
> > coincidence since I had too?  Or is this just
> another
> > cause to grow a new psychosis?
> 
> 
> There's a pretty extensive bibliography on the
> Schwartz/Jarrell generation
> of American poets, and their personal addictions and
> maladies.  Also
> included are, of course, Robert Lowell and John
> Berryman, both of whom wrote
> about Schwartz, incidentally.
> 
> Schwartz is a thinly disguised character in Saul
> Bellow's novel *Humboldt's
> Gift*, too.  
> 
> I've never been much taken with Schwartz's poetry,
> myself, but to his peers
> he seemed like the one to watch, at least until he
> burned out & descended
> into madness.  A very sad story.
> 
> Jarrell, who like the rest of these poets suffered
> from mental illness, was
> killed by a car, and it was officially ruled an
> accident; but nearly
> everyone agrees that it was a suicide.
> 
> I agree with Jeff about Jarrell's poems--there are a
> handful of very fine
> ones, but, as Helen Vendler once put it, he put his
> talent into his poetry
> and his genius into his criticism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu May 26 14:10:10 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:10:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <1f7.a934790.2fc7665e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20050526181010.63135.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>

yes, that's the book they're sending me to review
thanks for this

--- Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

> in this week's *new york times book review* (may
> 29), david lehman reviews 
> adam kirsch's new book *the wounded surgeon:
> confessions and transformation in 
> six american poets* (lowell, bishop, berryman,
> jarrell, schwartz, and plath. 
> kirsch posits an interesting thesis: lowell was not
> a confessionalist. lehman 
> finds calls it a "book with a flawed thesis, a few
> valuable readings of poems, 
> and a mess of missed opportunities."
> 
> in this same issue, stephen metcalf reviews richird
> wilbur's *collected 
> poems: 1943-2004*. in contrast to the above
> generation of poets, metcalf writes 
> that "while his contemporaries donned leather
> jackets or publicly fell apart, 
> richard wilbur maintained his reticence."
> 
> thom tammaro
> moorhead, mn
> > _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



	
		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. 
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 26 14:20:43 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:20:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
References: <20050526180849.62782.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c5621f$a40a8bf0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I have an abiding anger against that generation of poets. I appreciate their 
greatness, but I think they left an unfortunate legacy of a popular 
conception of the poet as navel-gazing, suicidal neurotic.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Murphy" <clitophon at yahoo.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz


> why do you think that there was so much instability
> among these writers?  Because their work was
> confessional and thereby personal?
> By the way, how do you descend into madness?  If you
> think about it, this is a peculiar phrase as if
> madness were somehow down there somewhere.  I suppose
> we traditionally predicate Hell as being below ground
> too and also Hades, in fact anywhere where the damned
> generally hang out.  But can madness not also be
> divine or beatific even?  Psychiatrists sometimes call
> schizophrenia a 'living death' but is it not really a
> more intensely beautiful way of living?  Don't we
> always condescend to those who are different and refer
> to them as experiencing a 'living death'?
> Philosophically speaking, one cannot be both alive and
> dead simultaneously, so why is this oxymoron or
> confused metaphor or piece of poetasting used at all?
> It reminds me of 'emotional intelligence', a term I
> debated in earlier mails.
>
> --- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>> on 5/26/05 12:25 PM, Paul Murphy at
>> clitophon at yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> > thanks for that.  I've been asked to review a book
>> on
>> > these writers + Sexton, Plath by W.W.Norton and I
>> > needed more information on those writers.
>> > All the writers suffered from extensive bouts of
>> > mental instability and I wondered if this was a
>> > coincidence since I had too?  Or is this just
>> another
>> > cause to grow a new psychosis?
>>
>>
>> There's a pretty extensive bibliography on the
>> Schwartz/Jarrell generation
>> of American poets, and their personal addictions and
>> maladies.  Also
>> included are, of course, Robert Lowell and John
>> Berryman, both of whom wrote
>> about Schwartz, incidentally.
>>
>> Schwartz is a thinly disguised character in Saul
>> Bellow's novel *Humboldt's
>> Gift*, too.
>>
>> I've never been much taken with Schwartz's poetry,
>> myself, but to his peers
>> he seemed like the one to watch, at least until he
>> burned out & descended
>> into madness.  A very sad story.
>>
>> Jarrell, who like the rest of these poets suffered
>> from mental illness, was
>> killed by a car, and it was officially ruled an
>> accident; but nearly
>> everyone agrees that it was a suicide.
>>
>> I agree with Jeff about Jarrell's poems--there are a
>> handful of very fine
>> ones, but, as Helen Vendler once put it, he put his
>> talent into his poetry
>> and his genius into his criticism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ====================================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> Home Page:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> ====================================================
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu May 26 14:30:22 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:30:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
Message-ID: <103.6229c236.2fc76fbe@aol.com>

okay. i thought your description   sounded familiar!

thom tammaro
moorhead. mn
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May 26 14:35:34 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:35:34 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
References: <20050526180849.62782.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>
	<004b01c5621f$a40a8bf0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <004101c56221$b4b300c0$028f3052@ANNY>


I agree with Tad. After several years teaching teenagers you finally realize 
how much people can be influenced (and you might go back and see also what 
happened to yourself) _ healthy constructive work is hard and takes a good 
amount of time and patience_ yes, there is this and that and that again -la 
nuance de la decadence, easily perceivable, detectable,

and then there is much more. This much more is unpayable.
Take care, Anny

From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:20 PM


>I have an abiding anger against that generation of poets. I appreciate 
>their greatness, but I think they left an unfortunate legacy of a popular 
>conception of the poet as navel-gazing, suicidal neurotic.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> From: "Paul Murphy" <clitophon at yahoo.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 2:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
>
>
>> why do you think that there was so much instability
>> among these writers?  Because their work was
>> confessional and thereby personal?
>> By the way, how do you descend into madness?  If you
>> think about it, this is a peculiar phrase as if
>> madness were somehow down there somewhere.  I suppose
>> we traditionally predicate Hell as being below ground
>> too and also Hades, in fact anywhere where the damned
>> generally hang out.  But can madness not also be
>> divine or beatific even?  Psychiatrists sometimes call
>> schizophrenia a 'living death' but is it not really a
>> more intensely beautiful way of living?  Don't we
>> always condescend to those who are different and refer
>> to them as experiencing a 'living death'?
>> Philosophically speaking, one cannot be both alive and
>> dead simultaneously, so why is this oxymoron or
>> confused metaphor or piece of poetasting used at all?
>> It reminds me of 'emotional intelligence', a term I
>> debated in earlier mails.
>>
>> --- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> on 5/26/05 12:25 PM, Paul Murphy at
>>> clitophon at yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>> > thanks for that.  I've been asked to review a book
>>> on
>>> > these writers + Sexton, Plath by W.W.Norton and I
>>> > needed more information on those writers.
>>> > All the writers suffered from extensive bouts of
>>> > mental instability and I wondered if this was a
>>> > coincidence since I had too?  Or is this just
>>> another
>>> > cause to grow a new psychosis?
>>>
>>>
>>> There's a pretty extensive bibliography on the
>>> Schwartz/Jarrell generation
>>> of American poets, and their personal addictions and
>>> maladies.  Also
>>> included are, of course, Robert Lowell and John
>>> Berryman, both of whom wrote
>>> about Schwartz, incidentally.
>>>
>>> Schwartz is a thinly disguised character in Saul
>>> Bellow's novel *Humboldt's
>>> Gift*, too.
>>>
>>> I've never been much taken with Schwartz's poetry,
>>> myself, but to his peers
>>> he seemed like the one to watch, at least until he
>>> burned out & descended
>>> into madness.  A very sad story.
>>>
>>> Jarrell, who like the rest of these poets suffered
>>> from mental illness, was
>>> killed by a car, and it was officially ruled an
>>> accident; but nearly
>>> everyone agrees that it was a suicide.
>>>
>>> I agree with Jeff about Jarrell's poems--there are a
>>> handful of very fine
>>> ones, but, as Helen Vendler once put it, he put his
>>> talent into his poetry
>>> and his genius into his criticism.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ====================================================
>>> David Graham
>>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>>> Home Page:
>>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>>> Poetry Library:
>>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>>> ====================================================
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
>> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu May 26 14:39:35 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:39:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <20050526180849.62782.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050526180849.62782.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261438310.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

On the other hand, I am balking at some of this theorizing
and romanticization on the
subject of madness.

There is often, um, suffering involved.

On Thu, 26 May 2005, Paul Murphy wrote:

> why do you think that there was so much instability
> among these writers?  Because their work was
> confessional and thereby personal?
> By the way, how do you descend into madness?  If you
> think about it, this is a peculiar phrase as if
> madness were somehow down there somewhere.  I suppose
> we traditionally predicate Hell as being below ground
> too and also Hades, in fact anywhere where the damned
> generally hang out.  But can madness not also be
> divine or beatific even?  Psychiatrists sometimes call
> schizophrenia a 'living death' but is it not really a
> more intensely beautiful way of living?  Don't we
> always condescend to those who are different and refer
> to them as experiencing a 'living death'?
> Philosophically speaking, one cannot be both alive and
> dead simultaneously, so why is this oxymoron or
> confused metaphor or piece of poetasting used at all?
> It reminds me of 'emotional intelligence', a term I
> debated in earlier mails.
>
> --- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
> > on 5/26/05 12:25 PM, Paul Murphy at
> > clitophon at yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > thanks for that.  I've been asked to review a book
> > on
> > > these writers + Sexton, Plath by W.W.Norton and I
> > > needed more information on those writers.
> > > All the writers suffered from extensive bouts of
> > > mental instability and I wondered if this was a
> > > coincidence since I had too?  Or is this just
> > another
> > > cause to grow a new psychosis?
> >
> >
> > There's a pretty extensive bibliography on the
> > Schwartz/Jarrell generation
> > of American poets, and their personal addictions and
> > maladies.  Also
> > included are, of course, Robert Lowell and John
> > Berryman, both of whom wrote
> > about Schwartz, incidentally.
> >
> > Schwartz is a thinly disguised character in Saul
> > Bellow's novel *Humboldt's
> > Gift*, too.
> >
> > I've never been much taken with Schwartz's poetry,
> > myself, but to his peers
> > he seemed like the one to watch, at least until he
> > burned out & descended
> > into madness.  A very sad story.
> >
> > Jarrell, who like the rest of these poets suffered
> > from mental illness, was
> > killed by a car, and it was officially ruled an
> > accident; but nearly
> > everyone agrees that it was a suicide.
> >
> > I agree with Jeff about Jarrell's poems--there are a
> > handful of very fine
> > ones, but, as Helen Vendler once put it, he put his
> > talent into his poetry
> > and his genius into his criticism.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ====================================================
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> > Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> > Poetry Library:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> > ====================================================
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu May 26 16:53:20 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:53:20 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
Message-ID: <200505261930.j4QJUxM3074656@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

Well, I think early Schwartz really GLOWED---IN DREAMS has some of the 
finest lyrics of the 20th century (way better than most of Lowell or
Berryman in my opinion) and he also did the rather innovative thing
of publishing stories in the same book as poems.

He's another one whose poetic achievements get lost in the biography.

C

----------
>From: Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
>Date: Thu, May 26, 2005, 10:08 AM
>

> why do you think that there was so much instability
> among these writers?  Because their work was
> confessional and thereby personal?
> By the way, how do you descend into madness?  If you
> think about it, this is a peculiar phrase as if
> madness were somehow down there somewhere.  I suppose
> we traditionally predicate Hell as being below ground
> too and also Hades, in fact anywhere where the damned
> generally hang out.  But can madness not also be
> divine or beatific even?  Psychiatrists sometimes call
> schizophrenia a 'living death' but is it not really a
> more intensely beautiful way of living?  Don't we
> always condescend to those who are different and refer
> to them as experiencing a 'living death'?
> Philosophically speaking, one cannot be both alive and
> dead simultaneously, so why is this oxymoron or
> confused metaphor or piece of poetasting used at all?
> It reminds me of 'emotional intelligence', a term I
> debated in earlier mails.
>
> --- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>> on 5/26/05 12:25 PM, Paul Murphy at
>> clitophon at yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> > thanks for that.  I've been asked to review a book
>> on
>> > these writers + Sexton, Plath by W.W.Norton and I
>> > needed more information on those writers.
>> > All the writers suffered from extensive bouts of
>> > mental instability and I wondered if this was a
>> > coincidence since I had too?  Or is this just
>> another
>> > cause to grow a new psychosis?
>>
>>
>> There's a pretty extensive bibliography on the
>> Schwartz/Jarrell generation
>> of American poets, and their personal addictions and
>> maladies.  Also
>> included are, of course, Robert Lowell and John
>> Berryman, both of whom wrote
>> about Schwartz, incidentally.
>>
>> Schwartz is a thinly disguised character in Saul
>> Bellow's novel *Humboldt's
>> Gift*, too.
>>
>> I've never been much taken with Schwartz's poetry,
>> myself, but to his peers
>> he seemed like the one to watch, at least until he
>> burned out & descended
>> into madness.  A very sad story.
>>
>> Jarrell, who like the rest of these poets suffered
>> from mental illness, was
>> killed by a car, and it was officially ruled an
>> accident; but nearly
>> everyone agrees that it was a suicide.
>>
>> I agree with Jeff about Jarrell's poems--there are a
>> handful of very fine
>> ones, but, as Helen Vendler once put it, he put his
>> talent into his poetry
>> and his genius into his criticism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ====================================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> Home Page:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> ====================================================
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
>   
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May 26 15:38:51 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:38:51 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for pataphysicists
Message-ID: <007501c5622a$8b672b70$028f3052@ANNY>

Forwarding from mIEKAL aND


(Cal just wrote me that he is looking for 4-5 more papers. Deadline
is early June.  There must few 'pataphysicians out there willing to
uncloak.)

2005 Call for Papers:

Some Machines of Pataphysics.

Pataphysica announces a CFP for its third issue. The topic is
pataphysical machines. We will print selected critical and artistic
works. We invite the pataphysical writing (and the pataphysical
writing only!) of scholars in the following fields: alchemy, Alfred
Jarry, Contraptionalism, cybernetics, dada, Fernando Pessoa, Gilles
Deleuze, Jean Tinguely, machine-produced art, Marcel Duchamp, Oulipo,
puppetry, Stanislaw Ignacy Witkiewicz, and such. Contemporary artists
and poets may submit textual machines, diagrams, and descriptions of
works in progress. Articles and works must directly relate to
pataphysics for inclusion. Deadline for submission: June 20, 2005.
Send all proposals to Dr. Cal Clements at calclements at yahoo.com.

http://www.calclements.com/pataphysica.html

___________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May 26 15:41:30 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:41:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding
Message-ID: <008201c5622a$ea3afcd0$028f3052@ANNY>

San Francisco Poet Laureate 2005-07
Nomination Form

Nominating Statement:
       Attach two or three paragraphs on why the nominee should be San
Francisco's Poet Laureate.

Bibliography:
Include bibliography of published works and/or performance history. Do
not submit poetry at this time. Committee may request samples of work at
a later date.

Criteria:
Poet Laureate Nominees must be San Francisco residents. Must have
substantial body of work, including at least one full length book
(minimum 48 pages, not self-published or vanity press) or CD (not
self-produced) or 20 or more published poems in established publications
over the past five years.

Responsibilities:
1.      Deliver an inaugural address to the public on the state of
poetry at the San Francisco Public Library.
2.      Participate in community-based poetry events.
3.      Work on one or more poetry-centered events in cooperation with
the San Francisco Public Library.
4.      Do a reading at Litquake.

Nominations due on June 15, 2005
Send to:        Poet Laureate Committee
               c/o Luis Herrera, City Librarian
               San Francisco Public Library
               100 Larkin Street
               San Francisco, CA 94102

Name of person submitting nomination:
____________________________________________
Address:
_____________________________________________________________________
Phone: ______________  Fax: ______________  Email:
_______________________________

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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu May 26 15:46:30 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:46:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <200505261930.j4QJUxM3074656@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20050526194630.49814.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com>

I'm not romanticising madness, I don't think it is
possible to do that.  Likewise romanticising the
contents of a toilet or a sink, eventually the sight
or smell tells its own story.

The legacy of these writers is rather like the legacy
of the original Romantics and it seems to me that the
reason why we think of them as in some way as being
distorted, insane or perverse is their retreat from
politics into really very reactionary, very
conservative views and politics.  The original
Romantic movement was jarringly apolitical and the
rebuke of politics was replaced by an obsession with
the inner world of dreams, intuitions, paranoia. The
next step was madness.  Not the madness of the mental
hospital but the madness of deranged individualism
which may have been something they sought to escape
from too.  Goethe also opposed it although we connect
him with the Sturm und Drang movement, however
superficially.  It is really impossible to
anarchichally subvert or depose from within, but then
the hippy generation believed, didn't they, that one
must kill the policeman in ones own mind.  The trouble
is that in killing this policeman, however
hypothetically that arrangement is made, one becomes
rather like a policeman.  I found this recently when I
was mistaken for a NATO soldier when I believed myself
to be a peace protester however powerlessly that
protest was conceived and executed.  PM

--- Chris Stroffolino  <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Well, I think early Schwartz really GLOWED---IN
> DREAMS has some of the 
> finest lyrics of the 20th century (way better than
> most of Lowell or
> Berryman in my opinion) and he also did the rather
> innovative thing
> of publishing stories in the same book as poems.
> 
> He's another one whose poetic achievements get lost
> in the biography.
> 
> C
> 
> ----------
> >From: Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
> >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,
> Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
> >Date: Thu, May 26, 2005, 10:08 AM
> >
> 
> > why do you think that there was so much
> instability
> > among these writers?  Because their work was
> > confessional and thereby personal?
> > By the way, how do you descend into madness?  If
> you
> > think about it, this is a peculiar phrase as if
> > madness were somehow down there somewhere.  I
> suppose
> > we traditionally predicate Hell as being below
> ground
> > too and also Hades, in fact anywhere where the
> damned
> > generally hang out.  But can madness not also be
> > divine or beatific even?  Psychiatrists sometimes
> call
> > schizophrenia a 'living death' but is it not
> really a
> > more intensely beautiful way of living?  Don't we
> > always condescend to those who are different and
> refer
> > to them as experiencing a 'living death'?
> > Philosophically speaking, one cannot be both alive
> and
> > dead simultaneously, so why is this oxymoron or
> > confused metaphor or piece of poetasting used at
> all?
> > It reminds me of 'emotional intelligence', a term
> I
> > debated in earlier mails.
> >
> > --- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> on 5/26/05 12:25 PM, Paul Murphy at
> >> clitophon at yahoo.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > thanks for that.  I've been asked to review a
> book
> >> on
> >> > these writers + Sexton, Plath by W.W.Norton and
> I
> >> > needed more information on those writers.
> >> > All the writers suffered from extensive bouts
> of
> >> > mental instability and I wondered if this was a
> >> > coincidence since I had too?  Or is this just
> >> another
> >> > cause to grow a new psychosis?
> >>
> >>
> >> There's a pretty extensive bibliography on the
> >> Schwartz/Jarrell generation
> >> of American poets, and their personal addictions
> and
> >> maladies.  Also
> >> included are, of course, Robert Lowell and John
> >> Berryman, both of whom wrote
> >> about Schwartz, incidentally.
> >>
> >> Schwartz is a thinly disguised character in Saul
> >> Bellow's novel *Humboldt's
> >> Gift*, too.
> >>
> >> I've never been much taken with Schwartz's
> poetry,
> >> myself, but to his peers
> >> he seemed like the one to watch, at least until
> he
> >> burned out & descended
> >> into madness.  A very sad story.
> >>
> >> Jarrell, who like the rest of these poets
> suffered
> >> from mental illness, was
> >> killed by a car, and it was officially ruled an
> >> accident; but nearly
> >> everyone agrees that it was a suicide.
> >>
> >> I agree with Jeff about Jarrell's poems--there
> are a
> >> handful of very fine
> >> ones, but, as Helen Vendler once put it, he put
> his
> >> talent into his poetry
> >> and his genius into his criticism.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ====================================================
> >> David Graham
> >> grahamd at ripon.edu
> >> Home Page:
> >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >> Poetry Library:
> >>
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >>
> ====================================================
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >   
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
__________________________________
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Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


From cc at opus0.com  Thu May 26 15:55:20 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:55:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ideas preconditional to poetry: the Marriage of Heaven
	and Hell
In-Reply-To: <200505261600.j4QG03Re004437@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJEEIJCDAA.cc@opus0.com>

A little discussion about ideas preconditional to poetry would be
interesting to me.  For example, I've been plagued for a long time about
morality-- what I used to think (after Jos. Campbell) as the boring part of
mythology: the rules.  What is it?  Can we throw it out?  Why or why not?
These questions reach a fever pitch for me now while reading DAF Sade, the
Marquis.  (ps. I hope to involve Gabe G. in this conversation since Sade was
the blackest of black humorists, and I know GG is a black humorist, likes
Breton, and I'd guess he's read the _Anthology of Black Humor_, &c.)  Sade
entertains some of the most gruesome ideas in history and appears to relish
them.  After reading him, a few things seem abundantly clear to me:
1. We need rules
2. We need to allow consequences to occur for those who break them
3. We need to replace notions of Good and Evil with something non-dualistic
4. We need to embrace Sade if we're ever going to transcend him
5. This may require learning things about ourselves that are unsavory.

These may bear explaining.
1. Rules need to be retested for relevance and discarded if irrelevant.  For
example: Do we need to be told not to boil a lamb in its mother's milk?
2. Not crime and punishment-- note-- because they are predicated on the
notion of extracting penitence...that is buried deeply in the duality of
God/Devil Good/Evil Heaven/Hell.  This stuff has never worked, or if so,
only because of Fear.  A more useful framework is: what is your unmet need?
3. Here's my idea after contemplating murder generally and Sade
specifically: There is no such thing as good and evil in nature... there are
only actions that have consequences.  We must decide collectively: which
consequences do we want to encourage?  which not?
4. I think Freud must not have been shocked by Sade.  (Does anyone know?)
So, to ask ourselves: In what sense do I enjoy cruelty?  What are the
consequences to myself/others for particular acts I consider cruel?
5. If we consider ourselves (as I do) matter self-reflecting, and consider
that nowhere else in nature do we observe morality, and that everywhere
there is life there is self-interest, then we should not be surprised (being
products of nature) to be self-interested.  I think we'll realize god when
we embrace the reptile.





From cc at opus0.com  Thu May 26 15:55:20 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:55:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there 
In-Reply-To: <200505261600.j4QG03Re004437@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <200505261255898.SM03524@gateway>

I admit an occasional desire to say something that will obviate all future
discussion.  It hasn't worked so far.  Even _The Waste Land_ did not create
a lasting hush in the world of poetry.  (Vain idea!)



> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
>
> This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been no
> posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
>

> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:10 -0400
> From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
>
> I thought it was just me. The list has been awfully quiet lately. I
> need things to read--keep up the chatter, folks.
>




From cc at opus0.com  Thu May 26 16:16:45 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:16:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Yeats
In-Reply-To: <200505241600.j4OG02Re016669@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJKEIJCDAA.cc@opus0.com>

Ms. Casinghino,
What to say to what appears to be a spontaneous expression of joy that also
makes me radiantly happy?

I hope you were talking to me.  teehee

Cc

> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:15:49 -0400
> From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Yeats
>
> On 5/24/05, Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:
> "Descriptions of the everyday will never do for poetic edification.
> Therefore, brave people follow Blake & Yeats."
>
> ...I think I love you.
>
>
>
>
> On 5/24/05, Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:
> > Course I'll take Yeats any/every day.  Probably the greatest
> poet in 20C.
> > (I'll wait for posterity to decide.)  His language is
> beautiful--that is, he
> > was an EAR, and his words ring also in a kind of 4th dimension (time)
> > because he had what few writers of 20C had: a mythology.  Advent of mod
> > science has given Mythology a bad name, as Richard says-- but
> we'll always
> > have them around.  Science is a mythology, and it claims to be the only
> > valid one (Rule 1: take no gods before me).  But of course it
> won't do for
> > any of the immeasurables, and so it's quite thin and feeble
> (silent really)
> > on the questions of birth/death, immortality and God.  [Weren't
> those Kant's
> > metaphysical questions?]  At present, mythologies are all
> pretty much broken
> > and you have to make your own if you want it to live.
> Descriptions of the
> > everyday will never do for poetic edification.  Therefore, brave people
> > follow Blake & Yeats.
> >
> > Yeats also wrote 26 plays (or so) and produced them at the Abbey Theatre
> > that he ran for 40 yrs ('f I remember the #).  I think his work in the
> > theatre (interest in Noh, staged verse) had a profound impact
> on Beckett,
> > and so on modern drama as a whole.
> >




From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu May 26 16:19:16 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:19:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ideas preconditional to poetry: the Marriage of
	Heaven and Hell
In-Reply-To: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJEEIJCDAA.cc@opus0.com>
Message-ID: <20050526201916.93299.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>

de Sade talks about the 'what if', ie what if there
are no rules (for certain) people and what is the
limit, if any, of human desire, cruelty, hatred,
perversity etc etc.
I think it's important to entertain the notion that de
Sade only reckoned that this situation of Anarchy was
only for him and similar white, male, upper-class
people.  One might think that this is the situation we
have and work outwards.
The other thing that occured to me was that de Sade is
an anagram of illicit orgasm, so there.  (bet that
caught you all off-balance...).
What are rules anyway?  Are they prohibitions?  Or
guidance notes?  Are they repressive or a 'necessary
evil'?  What happens when a 'necessary evil' becomes
Auschwitz or the Gulag or a British mental hospital?  
Freud would not have been surprised by de Sade because
he believed that man was innately bad, deranged,
perverse and that that derangement had to be contained
within civilisation and its rules, mores and
prohibitions.  His antagonist Wilhelm Reich, on the
contrary, believed that the pseudo-civilisation we
inherit is highly repressive, that man is good and
that this goodness is cruelly perverted by the
prohibitions imposed externally by the order/the
system/the rulers/the police whoever.  
My own belief is that one should always question the
necessity of rules in everyday life and never assume
anything to be without first of all examining it in
some detail.
Today I went to the music library in town and donated
2 Mozart operas, a laudable act if you like.  I could
have gone to a second hand shop and sold them,
possibly for a matter of a few pounds but I realised
that this was the best way to dispose of these things
I didn't need.  Public wealth, public resources and
public space makes sense, ultimately, even  though we
are convinced constantly to the contrary by all the
advertisement etc that seeks to convince us that we
are alone and devoid of context, community and the
rest.  This individualism is something we should
embrace (we are told) but the truth is that such
individualism isn't really for us but for our masters
who can afford the luxury of greed and individualism. 
I've seen innumerable examples of goodness and
altruism happening when space is made public and when
collectivism and the values it bears, are allowed to
flourish.  
I think that de Sade's arguments are connected to the
arguments of politics and the place that he makes for
the guiltless individual who is not a psychopath but
who has decided to live without a rule book.  But this
is not de Sade either.
(sorry I have to go now, will consider this later...) 
PM

--- Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:

> A little discussion about ideas preconditional to
> poetry would be
> interesting to me.  For example, I've been plagued
> for a long time about
> morality-- what I used to think (after Jos.
> Campbell) as the boring part of
> mythology: the rules.  What is it?  Can we throw it
> out?  Why or why not?
> These questions reach a fever pitch for me now while
> reading DAF Sade, the
> Marquis.  (ps. I hope to involve Gabe G. in this
> conversation since Sade was
> the blackest of black humorists, and I know GG is a
> black humorist, likes
> Breton, and I'd guess he's read the _Anthology of
> Black Humor_, &c.)  Sade
> entertains some of the most gruesome ideas in
> history and appears to relish
> them.  After reading him, a few things seem
> abundantly clear to me:
> 1. We need rules
> 2. We need to allow consequences to occur for those
> who break them
> 3. We need to replace notions of Good and Evil with
> something non-dualistic
> 4. We need to embrace Sade if we're ever going to
> transcend him
> 5. This may require learning things about ourselves
> that are unsavory.
> 
> These may bear explaining.
> 1. Rules need to be retested for relevance and
> discarded if irrelevant.  For
> example: Do we need to be told not to boil a lamb in
> its mother's milk?
> 2. Not crime and punishment-- note-- because they
> are predicated on the
> notion of extracting penitence...that is buried
> deeply in the duality of
> God/Devil Good/Evil Heaven/Hell.  This stuff has
> never worked, or if so,
> only because of Fear.  A more useful framework is:
> what is your unmet need?
> 3. Here's my idea after contemplating murder
> generally and Sade
> specifically: There is no such thing as good and
> evil in nature... there are
> only actions that have consequences.  We must decide
> collectively: which
> consequences do we want to encourage?  which not?
> 4. I think Freud must not have been shocked by Sade.
>  (Does anyone know?)
> So, to ask ourselves: In what sense do I enjoy
> cruelty?  What are the
> consequences to myself/others for particular acts I
> consider cruel?
> 5. If we consider ourselves (as I do) matter
> self-reflecting, and consider
> that nowhere else in nature do we observe morality,
> and that everywhere
> there is life there is self-interest, then we should
> not be surprised (being
> products of nature) to be self-interested.  I think
> we'll realize god when
> we embrace the reptile.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Thu May 26 16:56:25 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:56:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Yeats
In-Reply-To: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJKEIJCDAA.cc@opus0.com>
References: <200505241600.j4OG02Re016669@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJKEIJCDAA.cc@opus0.com>
Message-ID: <33abf275050526135612a83915@mail.gmail.com>

Indeedy I was. :) 

You just happened to name my two favorite poets and my two greatest
influences. I'd be more than happy to follow in their footsteps, if I
could manage it. And you stroke my ego too, calling me brave to follow
them! What could be better?

I'm glad to find a kindred spirit in this stuffy old list full of
fuddy-duddies arguing form and rhetoric separate from the poem's
content. ;) In my humble opinion, a poem's content should not be
separated in discussion from its formal elements... especially when
the importance of the poet is at hand. The poet's message is just as
important as his technical skill. Just like trying to appreciate a
work of art for the brush strokes alone, without regard for its
subject.

Of course, I'm only a student of poetry, and hardly a master. What do I know?



On 5/26/05, Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:
> Ms. Casinghino,
> What to say to what appears to be a spontaneous expression of joy that also
> makes me radiantly happy?
> 
> I hope you were talking to me.  teehee
> 
> Cc
> 
> > Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:15:49 -0400
> > From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Yeats
> >
> > On 5/24/05, Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:
> > "Descriptions of the everyday will never do for poetic edification.
> > Therefore, brave people follow Blake & Yeats."
> >
> > ...I think I love you.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/24/05, Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:
> > > Course I'll take Yeats any/every day.  Probably the greatest
> > poet in 20C.
> > > (I'll wait for posterity to decide.)  His language is
> > beautiful--that is, he
> > > was an EAR, and his words ring also in a kind of 4th dimension (time)
> > > because he had what few writers of 20C had: a mythology.  Advent of mod
> > > science has given Mythology a bad name, as Richard says-- but
> > we'll always
> > > have them around.  Science is a mythology, and it claims to be the only
> > > valid one (Rule 1: take no gods before me).  But of course it
> > won't do for
> > > any of the immeasurables, and so it's quite thin and feeble
> > (silent really)
> > > on the questions of birth/death, immortality and God.  [Weren't
> > those Kant's
> > > metaphysical questions?]  At present, mythologies are all
> > pretty much broken
> > > and you have to make your own if you want it to live.
> > Descriptions of the
> > > everyday will never do for poetic edification.  Therefore, brave people
> > > follow Blake & Yeats.
> > >
> > > Yeats also wrote 26 plays (or so) and produced them at the Abbey Theatre
> > > that he ran for 40 yrs ('f I remember the #).  I think his work in the
> > > theatre (interest in Noh, staged verse) had a profound impact
> > on Beckett,
> > > and so on modern drama as a whole.
> > >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
"No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake



From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Thu May 26 17:04:24 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:04:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
Message-ID: <d.451d2581.2fc793d8@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 5/26/2005 2:36:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

>I  have an abiding anger against that generation of poets. I appreciate  
>their greatness, but I think they left an unfortunate legacy of a  popular 
>conception of the poet as navel-gazing, suicidal  neurotic.



Can you blame a poet for his/her followers? If so, then I'm pissed at Plath  
and Sexton for all the crappy confessional poetry I've had to read (some of  
which I wrote my own self).
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 26 17:15:47 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:15:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greg Orr quote
Message-ID: <87.2866a5e3.2fc79683@cs.com>

A friend is trying to quote Greg Orr's "Silence" from memory and isn't sure 
it he has the lines right.  Can someone check?


The way the words sink into the deep snow of the page.
 The dead deer lying in the clearing, its head and
 Antlers transparent.
 The black seed in its brain
 Parachuting toward earth.
 
from "Silence"
 
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May 26 17:23:04 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:23:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greg Orr quote
In-Reply-To: <87.2866a5e3.2fc79683@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BEBBA867.12642%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/26/05 4:15 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

A friend is trying to quote Greg Orr's "Silence" from memory and isn't sure
it he has the lines right.  Can someone check?


The way the words sink into the deep snow of the page.
The dead deer lying in the clearing, its head and
Antlers transparent.
The black seed in its brain
Parachuting toward earth.

from "Silence"


_______________________________________________
Anny B has it this way on her web site:

Silence
The way the word sinks
into the deep snow of the page.
The deer lying dead
in the clearing,
its head and antlers
transparent.
?????????????? The black
seed in its brain
parachuting toward earth.
--Gregory Orr,
_Burning the Empty Nests_

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May 26 17:31:08 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:31:08 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greg Orr quote
References: <BEBBA867.12642%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <003f01c5623a$3af58000$028f3052@ANNY>

Greg Orr quoteIf she has it that way, it should be right, she takes some time to type things well, professional deviation/deflection/detour/ de
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:23 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Greg Orr quote


  on 5/26/05 4:15 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:


    A friend is trying to quote Greg Orr's "Silence" from memory and isn't sure it he has the lines right.  Can someone check?


    The way the words sink into the deep snow of the page.
    The dead deer lying in the clearing, its head and
    Antlers transparent.
    The black seed in its brain
    Parachuting toward earth.

    from "Silence"


    _______________________________________________

  Anny B has it this way on her web site:


  Silence

  The way the word sinks
  into the deep snow of the page.
  The deer lying dead
  in the clearing,
  its head and antlers 
  transparent.
                 The black
  seed in its brain
  parachuting toward earth.
  --Gregory Orr,
  _Burning the Empty Nests_

  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu May 26 17:41:15 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:41:15 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greg Orr quote
References: <BEBBA867.12642%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<003f01c5623a$3af58000$028f3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <005701c5623b$a4d7b640$028f3052@ANNY>

Greg Orr quoteAh, the more because it was sent by James Finnegan to the list...
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:31 PM


  If she has it that way, it should be right, she takes some time to type things well, professional deviation/deflection/detour/ de
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: David Graham 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
    Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:23 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Greg Orr quote


    on 5/26/05 4:15 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:


      A friend is trying to quote Greg Orr's "Silence" from memory and isn't sure it he has the lines right.  Can someone check?


      The way the words sink into the deep snow of the page.
      The dead deer lying in the clearing, its head and
      Antlers transparent.
      The black seed in its brain
      Parachuting toward earth.

      from "Silence"


      _______________________________________________

    Anny B has it this way on her web site:


    Silence

    The way the word sinks
    into the deep snow of the page.
    The deer lying dead
    in the clearing,
    its head and antlers 
    transparent.
                   The black
    seed in its brain
    parachuting toward earth.
    --Gregory Orr,
    _Burning the Empty Nests_

    ====================================================
    David Graham
    grahamd at ripon.edu
    Home Page:
    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
    Poetry Library:
    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
    ====================================================




----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May 26 18:34:28 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:34:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <20050526194630.49814.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BEBBB924.1264D%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Personally, I like to remind myself that the generation of Lowell, Berryman,
et al. contained any number of poets who were anything but mad or
self-destructive:  Robert Hayden, Gwendolyn Brooks, William Stafford,
Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Robert Duncan, Muriel Rukeyser, Dudley Randall. . . .

The messy lives of Lowell and others make great copy, of course, and that's
one reason (among others) that we don't hear the above poets mentioned much
when talk turns to The Age of Lowell.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu May 26 18:40:28 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:40:28 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greg Orr quote
Message-ID: <36.739b075f.2fc7aa5c@cs.com>

Thanks, David. And Annie.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 26 19:46:50 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:46:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Greg Orr quote
Message-ID: <d8.270a96ce.2fc7b9ea@aol.com>

Who is one of the world's great typoists...I would
check the original if I was me.
Finnegan

In a message dated 5/26/2005 5:41:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

> Ah, the more because it was sent by James Finnegan to the list...
>  
> >> From: Anny Ballardini 
>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:31 PM
>>  
>> 
>> If she has it that way, it should be right, she takes some time to type 
>> things well, professional deviation/deflection/detour/ de
>>  
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: David Graham 
>>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:23 PM
>>>  Subject: [New-Poetry] Greg Orr quote
>>>  
>>> 
>>> on 5/26/05 4:15 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> >>>> A friend is trying to quote Greg Orr's "Silence" from memory and 
>>>> isn't sure it he has the lines right.  Can someone check?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The way the words sink into the deep snow of the page.
>>>> The dead deer lying in the clearing, its head and
>>>> Antlers transparent.
>>>> The black seed in its brain
>>>> Parachuting toward earth.
>>>> 
>>>> from "Silence"
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>> Anny B has it this way on her web site:
>>> Silence
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The way the word sinks
>>> into the deep snow of the page.
>>> The deer lying dead
>>> in the clearing,
>>> its head and antlers 
>>> transparent.
>>>               The black
>>> seed in its brain
>>> parachuting toward earth.
>>> --Gregory Orr,
>>> _Burning the Empty Nests_
>>> 
>> 
> 

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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 26 20:06:15 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:06:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] poet Ronald Johnson was memorialized 
Message-ID: <df.1457bbec.2fc7be77@aol.com>

Thursday, May 26, 2005
Plaque honors poet inspired by garden
 
 By Cait Purinton
The Capital-Journal
Topeka poet Ronald Johnson was memorialized Wednesday afternoon in the garden 
that inspired his last book.

A plaque honoring Johnson was unveiled in the Garden Center Patio at 
Ward-Meade Historic Site. Johnson was an employee working at the park when he wrote a 
series of poems published posthumously in 2001 in the book "The Shrubberies."

"He would be quite pleased to have one of his poems in a permanent form, 
rather than a book," said his sister, Jodi Panula.

She said having one of his poems embodied on the plaque relates to Johnson's 
days of concrete poetry, in which his poems were fixed to sides of boards.

Plants, birds and garden features mentioned in "The Shrubberies" are 
noticeable throughout the garden patio, where Johnson would sit and write. He was a 
handyman and cook at Ward-Meade between 1994 and 1998.

"This is the site. This is where it happened, and it's fitting (the plaque) 
is here," said Bill Riphahn, director of planning and development for city 
parks.
Johnson died in 1998 of complications from a stroke at the age of 62. Before 
his death Johnson contacted his literary executor, Peter O'Leary, and told him 
to "prune the shrubs," O'Leary said.

O'Leary collected the 229-page manuscript of more than 300 poems and compiled 
a book, published by Flood Editions.

Poet and literary critic Norman Finkelstein said Johnson's poems have helped 
him in his endeavor to write a long poem.

"One of the truest ways for a younger poet to honor an elder is to say 'You 
influenced me.' Ronald Johnson influenced me," he said.

Finkelstein, O'Leary and Flood Editions editor Devin Johnston participated in 
a symposium Wednesday night at the Topeka and Shawnee County Public Library 
on "The Shrubberies" and other works by Johnson.

"The Shrubberies" is sold at the general store in Ward-Meade park.

Cait Purinton can be reached at (785) 295-1185 or cait.purinton at cjonline.com.




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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 26 20:16:55 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:16:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ideas preconditional to poetry: the Marriage of
	Heaven and H...
Message-ID: <1c3.29796076.2fc7c0f7@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/26/2005 4:19:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
clitophon at yahoo.com writes:

> think that de Sade's arguments are connected to the
> arguments of politics and the place that he makes for
> the guiltless individual who is not a psychopath but
> who has decided to live without a rule book

de Sade = aristocratic erotics of exploitation
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu May 26 20:27:37 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:27:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding
Message-ID: <9e.274d2c8b.2fc7c379@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/26/2005 3:42:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

> San Francisco Poet Laureate 2005-07
> Nomination Form
> 
> 

We just recently had a Poet Laureate named for 
the town of West Hartford CT....a Poet Laureate
for every town and hamlet...a Poet Laureate of 
the corner of Euclid & Division Stteets. A Poet Laureate
of the lost hupcap propped against the maple
near the on-ramp to I-84.  A Poet Laureate of
wooden palettes stacked behind the dumpster.
Finnegan
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From aburke at iinet.net.au  Thu May 26 21:33:03 2005
From: aburke at iinet.net.au (Andrew Burke)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:33:03 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
References: <20050526180849.62782.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505261438310.4814@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <00c101c5625c$074c95a0$8dd93bcb@andrewbu>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz


> On the other hand, I am balking at some of this theorizing
> and romanticization on the
> subject of madness.
>
> There is often, um, suffering involved.
>

Yes, it is all too easy to fall into the trap of romanticizing mental
illness. It is , in fact, part of the illness - to be attracted to it - and
takes strongwilled discipline to turn your back on it and take the positive
path.

Andrew

Jarrell has interesting audio readings of his poems - there's a tape or two
available. It is the only way I got into more of his poetry than the obvious
ones.

I think you should step down from reviewing that book if you don't know
enough about the subject matter. That would be my stance. You can only do a
surface-level reading of it from this start, and you owe it to the author
and his subjects to pass it on to someone who knows.




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Thu May 26 20:56:49 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:56:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
Message-ID: <60.565c4874.2fc7ca51@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 5/26/2005 6:33:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

Personally, I like to remind myself that the generation of Lowell,  Berryman,
et al. contained any number of poets who were anything but mad  or
self-destructive:  Robert Hayden, Gwendolyn Brooks, William  Stafford,
Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Robert Duncan, Muriel Rukeyser, Dudley  Randall. . . .

The messy lives of Lowell and others make great copy, of  course, and that's
one reason (among others) that we don't hear the above  poets mentioned much
when talk turns to The Age of  Lowell.



Right on. 
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu May 26 21:24:45 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:24:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding
References: <9e.274d2c8b.2fc7c379@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c5625a$e1867030$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Why is this a problem? That a small area wants to honor a local poet?

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding


  In a message dated 5/26/2005 3:42:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:


    San Francisco Poet Laureate 2005-07
    Nomination Form




  We just recently had a Poet Laureate named for 
  the town of West Hartford CT....a Poet Laureate
  for every town and hamlet...a Poet Laureate of 
  the corner of Euclid & Division Stteets. A Poet Laureate
  of the lost hupcap propped against the maple
  near the on-ramp to I-84.  A Poet Laureate of
  wooden palettes stacked behind the dumpster.
  Finnegan 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From cc at opus0.com  Thu May 26 22:00:42 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:00:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: this will never lead to an interesting conversation
In-Reply-To: <200505261936.j4QJagRe006443@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJOEIKCDAA.cc@opus0.com>

imo


> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:17:38 -0400
> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> 
> > Haste is the enemy of poetry<
> 
> I thought the enemy of poetry was anyone who put time, effort, or 
> money into 
> presenting poetry to the world, but left out burstnorm.
> 




From MillB at aol.com  Thu May 26 22:32:37 2005
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:32:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
Message-ID: <1fa.9688ebe.2fc7e0c5@aol.com>

Greetings,
 
Here's a very non-academic thread.  

One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of  
July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  They  adore 
Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their  invitations were 
origami, so there is an acute attention to detail and  style.
 
And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony.   Translation, not 
an epic.
 
Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I  
really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I SO do  not 
want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those  fans!).  
 
Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really  
would appreciate hearing about it.
 
 
Thanks,
 
Mill


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From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Thu May 26 22:53:48 2005
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:53:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <1fa.9688ebe.2fc7e0c5@aol.com>
References: <1fa.9688ebe.2fc7e0c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050526215336.0cbe4900@mail.ilstu.edu>

How about Wendell Berry's "The Dance"?

At 09:32 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>Here's a very non-academic thread.
>One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of 
>July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  They 
>adore Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their 
>invitations were origami, so there is an acute attention to detail and style.
>
>And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony.  Translation, 
>not an epic.
>
>Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I 
>really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I SO do 
>not want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those 
>fans!).
>
>Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really 
>would appreciate hearing about it.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mill
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu May 26 23:39:31 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 04:39:31 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050526215336.0cbe4900@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <ECOWS02Mc34hHYCpmYy000b4bea@smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk>

Scottish Poetry Library ( <http://www.spl.org.uk/browse/bookshop.html>
http://www.spl.org.uk/browse/bookshop.html <http://www.spl.org.uk> ) has an
anthology, Handfast : Scottish Poems for Weddings and Affirmations if the
poets' being Scots isn't a problem. (They have one for Births & Deaths as
well)

P


  _____  

From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Morgan
Sent: 27 May 2005 03:54
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions


How about Wendell Berry's "The Dance"?

At 09:32 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote:


Greetings,
 
Here's a very non-academic thread.  
One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of
July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  They adore
Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their invitations
were origami, so there is an acute attention to detail and style.
 
And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony.  Translation, not
an epic.
 
Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I
really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I SO do not
want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those fans!).

 
Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really
would appreciate hearing about it.
 
 
Thanks,
 
Mill

 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu May 26 23:49:57 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:49:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050526215336.0cbe4900@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <BEBC0315.12664%grahamd@ripon.edu>

My favorite wedding poem:

SUMMONS


Keep me from going to sleep too soon
Or if I go to sleep too soon
Come wake me up.  Come any hour
Of night.  Come whistling up the road.
Stomp on the porch.  Bang on the door.
Make me get out of bed and come
And let you in and light a light.
Tell me the northern lights are on
And make me look.  Or tell me the clouds
Are doing something to the moon
They never did before, and show me.
See that I see.  Talk to me till
I?m half as wide awake as you
And start to dress wondering why
I ever went to bed at all.
Tell me the walking is superb.
Not only tell me but persuade me.
You know I?m not too hard persuaded.

   --Robert Francis, The Sound I Listened For (1944)



on 5/26/05 9:53 PM, Bill Morgan at wwmorgan at ilstu.edu wrote:

How about Wendell Berry's "The Dance"?

At 09:32 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
Greetings,

Here's a very non-academic thread.
One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of
July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  They adore
Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their invitations
were origami, so there is an acute attention to detail and style.

And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony. Translation, not
an epic.

Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I
really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I SO do not
want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those fans!).

Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really
would appreciate hearing about it.


Thanks,

Mill




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Thu May 26 23:48:05 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:48:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <ECOWS02Mc34hHYCpmYy000b4bea@smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <6.0.2.0.2.20050526215336.0cbe4900@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<ECOWS02Mc34hHYCpmYy000b4bea@smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33abf27505052620481b927d5c@mail.gmail.com>

Since I'm still on my Frost kick:
The Master Speed - Robert Frost
No speed of wind or water rushing byBut you have speed far greater. You can climbBack up a stream of radiance to the sky,And back through history up the stream of time.And you were given this swiftness, not for haste,Nor chiefly that you may go where you will,But in the rush of everything to waste,That you may have the power of standing still ?Off any still or moving thing you say.Two such as you with such a master speedCannot be parted nor be swept awayFrom one another once you are agreedThat life is only life forevermoreTogether wing to wing and oar to oar.


On 5/26/05, Peter Cudmore <peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:>  > > Scottish Poetry Library> (http://www.spl.org.uk/browse/bookshop.html) has an> anthology, Handfast : Scottish Poems for Weddings and Affirmations if the> poets' being Scots isn't a problem. (They have one for Births & Deaths as> well) > > P>  >  >  ________________________________>  From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of> Bill Morgan> Sent: 27 May 2005 03:54> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions> >  > How about Wendell Berry's "The Dance"?> > At 09:32 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote:>  > Greetings,>  > Here's a very non-academic thread.  > One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of> July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  They adore> Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their invitations> were origami, so there is an acute attention to detail and style.>  > And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony.  Translation, not> an epic.>  > Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I> really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I SO do not> want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those fans!). >  > Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really> would appreciate hearing about it.>  >  > Thanks,>  > Mill> >  > _______________________________________________> New-Poetry mailing list> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>  > _______________________________________________> New-Poetry mailing list> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > > 

-- -------------------------------------------------"No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake


From stjewell at gmail.com  Fri May 27 00:29:39 2005
From: stjewell at gmail.com (SJ)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:29:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <1fa.9688ebe.2fc7e0c5@aol.com>
References: <1fa.9688ebe.2fc7e0c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4296A233.9070308@gmail.com>

I've been looking for wedding poetry myself, as two friends of mine got 
engaged last week, so I appreciate the "non-academic thread". During a 
casual search, I discovered this anthology of contemporary poetry on 
marriage:
Proposing on the Brooklyn Bridge: Poems About Marriage, Ed. Ginny Lowe 
Connors.
On Amazon you can take a look at the Table of Contents:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0967555469/102-1652112-9399336?v=glance

The book is categorized into 7 thematic sections: Beginnings, Ourselves 
and Others, Together, Apart, Endings, The Shape of a Marriage, and 
Looking Back. It includes poetry by Richard Wilbur, Jane Hirshfield, 
Wendell Berry (two poems other than The Dance, which Bill suggested), 
Sharon Olds, Stephen Dunn, Marge Piercy, and Donald Hall. And notably, 
as I recently attended an event honoring Stanley Kunitz and his upcoming 
100th birthday, the anthology ends with Kunitz's "Touch Me."

I'd be curious to know which poem you pick, the couple sounds like a fun 
match!

Sarah


MillB at aol.com wrote:

> Greetings,
>  
> Here's a very non-academic thread. 
> One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th 
> of July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  
> They adore Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color 
> orange. Their invitations were origami, so there is an acute attention 
> to detail and style.
>  
> And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony.  
> Translation, not an epic.
>  
> Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . 
> . I really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I 
> SO do not want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry 
> for those fans!). 
>  
> Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I 
> really would appreciate hearing about it.
>  
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Mill
>


From aburke at iinet.net.au  Fri May 27 05:14:19 2005
From: aburke at iinet.net.au (Andrew Burke)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:14:19 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
References: <1fa.9688ebe.2fc7e0c5@aol.com> <4296A233.9070308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c5629c$7700f9a0$42793bcb@andrewbu>

SJ - Great link. Thanks. 

Andrew




From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au  Fri May 27 06:19:49 2005
From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:19:49 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Malleable Jangle will be... 
In-Reply-To: <200505270248.j4R2muRf009342@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20050527101949.80353.qmail@web51409.mail.yahoo.com>

Increasing family and work commitments have caused a deficit of available time, and as such, Malleable Jangle will be changing from a monthly to a quarterly. The next issue will be Winter, of course. Regards, Robert Lane. changing from a monthly to a quarterly. The next issue will be Winter, of course. Regards, Robert Lane. changing from a monthly to a quarterly. The next issue will be Winter, of course. Regards, Robert Lane. 

Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings




---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
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From mbyrne at risd.edu  Fri May 27 07:23:55 2005
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:23:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
Message-ID: <s296cb43.070@risd.edu>

What the hell -- I've got one too:

SHORT POEM FOR A WEDDING 

May I invite you for coffee?
May I invite you for lunch?
May I invite you for a spin by the river on Sunday?
May I invite you to dinner?
May I ask for a kiss?
May I ask if you'd like a ride home?
May I ask to come in?
May I ask to see where you live for the very first time?
May I ask to see you?
Again?  May I take you to dinner
& dinner & dinner?
May you say yes.
May I ask to see you?
May you say yes.
May I ask to be there when our first child is born?
May I see you like that?
May I see you like this & like that?
May I touch you?
In this light & this light & that?
May I carry groceries to our car?
May I cook dinner?
May I clean up?
May I lie down beside you & 
Listen*May I tickle your feet?
May I ask you to dinner
& dinner & dinner?
And may you say yes.











>>> grahamd at ripon.edu 05/26/05 11:49 PM >>>
My favorite wedding poem:

SUMMONS


Keep me from going to sleep too soon
Or if I go to sleep too soon
Come wake me up.  Come any hour
Of night.  Come whistling up the road.
Stomp on the porch.  Bang on the door.
Make me get out of bed and come
And let you in and light a light.
Tell me the northern lights are on
And make me look.  Or tell me the clouds
Are doing something to the moon
They never did before, and show me.
See that I see.  Talk to me till
I?m half as wide awake as you
And start to dress wondering why
I ever went to bed at all.
Tell me the walking is superb.
Not only tell me but persuade me.
You know I?m not too hard persuaded.

   --Robert Francis, The Sound I Listened For (1944)



on 5/26/05 9:53 PM, Bill Morgan at wwmorgan at ilstu.edu wrote:

How about Wendell Berry's "The Dance"?

At 09:32 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
Greetings,

Here's a very non-academic thread.
One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of
July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  They adore
Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their invitations
were origami, so there is an acute attention to detail and style.

And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony. Translation, not
an epic.

Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I
really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I SO do not
want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those fans!).

Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really
would appreciate hearing about it.


Thanks,

Mill




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================






From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May 27 07:58:53 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:58:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
References: <s296cb43.070@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <007801c562b3$765a13d0$068e3052@ANNY>

I might be a fan of Mairead Byrne (no, no don't tell me) but I think this is a wonderful _love song_


From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:23 PM


> What the hell -- I've got one too:
> 
> SHORT POEM FOR A WEDDING 
> 
> May I invite you for coffee?
> May I invite you for lunch?
> May I invite you for a spin by the river on Sunday?
> May I invite you to dinner?
> May I ask for a kiss?
> May I ask if you'd like a ride home?
> May I ask to come in?
> May I ask to see where you live for the very first time?
> May I ask to see you?
> Again?  May I take you to dinner
> & dinner & dinner?
> May you say yes.
> May I ask to see you?
> May you say yes.
> May I ask to be there when our first child is born?
> May I see you like that?
> May I see you like this & like that?
> May I touch you?
> In this light & this light & that?
> May I carry groceries to our car?
> May I cook dinner?
> May I clean up?
> May I lie down beside you & 
> Listen*May I tickle your feet?
> May I ask you to dinner
> & dinner & dinner?
> And may you say yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>>> grahamd at ripon.edu 05/26/05 11:49 PM >>>
> My favorite wedding poem:
> 
> SUMMONS
> 
> 
> Keep me from going to sleep too soon
> Or if I go to sleep too soon
> Come wake me up.  Come any hour
> Of night.  Come whistling up the road.
> Stomp on the porch.  Bang on the door.
> Make me get out of bed and come
> And let you in and light a light.
> Tell me the northern lights are on
> And make me look.  Or tell me the clouds
> Are doing something to the moon
> They never did before, and show me.
> See that I see.  Talk to me till
> I?m half as wide awake as you
> And start to dress wondering why
> I ever went to bed at all.
> Tell me the walking is superb.
> Not only tell me but persuade me.
> You know I?m not too hard persuaded.
> 
>   --Robert Francis, The Sound I Listened For (1944)
> 
> 
> 
> on 5/26/05 9:53 PM, Bill Morgan at wwmorgan at ilstu.edu wrote:
> 
> How about Wendell Berry's "The Dance"?
> 
> At 09:32 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> Here's a very non-academic thread.
> One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of
> July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  They adore
> Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their invitations
> were origami, so there is an acute attention to detail and style.
> 
> And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony. Translation, not
> an epic.
> 
> Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I
> really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I SO do not
> want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those fans!).
> 
> Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really
> would appreciate hearing about it.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Fri May 27 08:45:06 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 8:45:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Wedding Suggestions
Message-ID: <200505271245.j4RCj6RJ028388@mail8.atl.registeredsite.com>

9


This is a wedding poem I wrote.  It was actually published, too, along with 
some others in Caf? Review #7, spring 1996.  



We pray this Day
Through purer intellect --
Sustain our Love --
O Lord --
Bless Its validity --
Acknowledge our Love
In Your Immaculate Book 
Make manifest our course
That we may know Its congruity --
Or grant us quietude --
O Lord --
& What virtue necessary




What can I say -- blame this on Dickinson, Colin Wilson, Emerson, and too 
much Church.  


Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  



"Greetings,
 
Here's a very non-academic thread.  

One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of  
July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  They  adore 
Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their  
invitations were 
origami, so there is an acute attention to detail and  style.
 
And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony.   Translation, not 
an epic.
 
Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I  
really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I SO do  not 
want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those  fans!).  
 
Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really  
would appreciate hearing about it.
 
 
Thanks,
 
Mill"


9



From Thom424 at aol.com  Fri May 27 08:45:04 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:45:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
Message-ID: <bf.58506563.2fc87050@aol.com>

*Into the Garden:   A Wedding Anthology: Poetry and Prose on Love and 
Marriage*.      Eds. Robert Haas and Stephen Mitchell.


thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Fri May 27 09:57:02 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:57:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <33abf27505052620481b927d5c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.0.2.0.2.20050526215336.0cbe4900@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<ECOWS02Mc34hHYCpmYy000b4bea@smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk>
	<33abf27505052620481b927d5c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505270954380.17869@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

I think you should honor everybody's roots - read the wisecracking
poem "Marriage" by Italian new york city dweller Gregory Corso, then undo
the damage by finding some really knockout beautiful haiku love poem by
Buson or Issa - Basho is too busy writing about horses pee and radishes...

On Thu, 26 May 2005, Donna Casinghino wrote:

> Since I'm still on my Frost kick:
> The Master Speed - Robert Frost
> No speed of wind or water rushing byBut you have speed far greater. You can climbBack up a stream of radiance to the sky,And back through history up the stream of time.And you were given this swiftness, not for haste,Nor chiefly that you may go where you will,But in the rush of everything to waste,That you may have the power of standing still ?Off any still or moving thing you say.Two such as you with such a master speedCannot be parted nor be swept awayFrom one another once you are agreedThat life is only life forevermoreTogether wing to wing and oar to oar.
>
>
> On 5/26/05, Peter Cudmore <peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:>  > > Scottish Poetry Library> (http://www.spl.org.uk/browse/bookshop.html) has an> anthology, Handfast : Scottish Poems for Weddings and Affirmations if the> poets' being Scots isn't a problem. (They have one for Births & Deaths as> well) > > P>  >  >  ________________________________>  From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of> Bill Morgan> Sent: 27 May 2005 03:54> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions> >  > How about Wendell Berry's "The Dance"?> > At 09:32 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote:>  > Greetings,>  > Here's a very non-academic thread.  > One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of> July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  They adore> Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their invitations> were origami, so there is an!
>  acute attention to detail and style.>  > And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony.  Translation, not> an epic.>  > Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I> really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I SO do not> want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those fans!). >  > Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really> would appreciate hearing about it.>  >  > Thanks,>  > Mill> >  > _______________________________________________> New-Poetry mailing list> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>  > _______________________________________________> New-Poetry mailing list> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > >
>
> -- -------------------------------------------------"No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From JforJames at aol.com  Fri May 27 10:09:05 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:09:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding
Message-ID: <20b.1d34a6d.2fc88401@aol.com>

Tad, it strkes me as a bit goofy and now there is something 'bandwagonish' 
about it all. Also, "laureate" is rather high-flallutin, esp when you've read 
some of poetry of the poets named to (or elected or lobbied into) these honorary 
posts.
Nothing wrong per se with every burg having a Plumber Laureate
either.
Finnegan

In a message dated 5/26/2005 9:25:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org 
writes:
Why is this a problem? That a small area wants to honor a local poet?

Tad Richards
http://www.opus40.org/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: JforJames at aol.com 
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding


In a message dated 5/26/2005 3:42:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:


San Francisco Poet Laureate 2005-07
Nomination Form




We just recently had a Poet Laureate named for 
the town of West Hartford CT....a Poet Laureate
for every town and hamlet...a Poet Laureate of 
the corner of Euclid & Division Stteets. A Poet Laureate
of the lost hupcap propped against the maple
near the on-ramp to I-84.  A Poet Laureate of
wooden palettes stacked behind the dumpster.
Finnegan 
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From tad at opus40.org  Fri May 27 10:24:02 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:24:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
References: <s296cb43.070@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <007001c562c7$be6214c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Mairead -- I like that one.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
To: <grahamd at ripon.edu>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions


What the hell -- I've got one too:

SHORT POEM FOR A WEDDING

May I invite you for coffee?
May I invite you for lunch?
May I invite you for a spin by the river on Sunday?
May I invite you to dinner?
May I ask for a kiss?
May I ask if you'd like a ride home?
May I ask to come in?
May I ask to see where you live for the very first time?
May I ask to see you?
Again?  May I take you to dinner
& dinner & dinner?
May you say yes.
May I ask to see you?
May you say yes.
May I ask to be there when our first child is born?
May I see you like that?
May I see you like this & like that?
May I touch you?
In this light & this light & that?
May I carry groceries to our car?
May I cook dinner?
May I clean up?
May I lie down beside you &
Listen*May I tickle your feet?
May I ask you to dinner
& dinner & dinner?
And may you say yes.











>>> grahamd at ripon.edu 05/26/05 11:49 PM >>>
My favorite wedding poem:

SUMMONS


Keep me from going to sleep too soon
Or if I go to sleep too soon
Come wake me up.  Come any hour
Of night.  Come whistling up the road.
Stomp on the porch.  Bang on the door.
Make me get out of bed and come
And let you in and light a light.
Tell me the northern lights are on
And make me look.  Or tell me the clouds
Are doing something to the moon
They never did before, and show me.
See that I see.  Talk to me till
I?m half as wide awake as you
And start to dress wondering why
I ever went to bed at all.
Tell me the walking is superb.
Not only tell me but persuade me.
You know I?m not too hard persuaded.

   --Robert Francis, The Sound I Listened For (1944)



on 5/26/05 9:53 PM, Bill Morgan at wwmorgan at ilstu.edu wrote:

How about Wendell Berry's "The Dance"?

At 09:32 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
Greetings,

Here's a very non-academic thread.
One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of
July).  He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese.  They adore
Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their invitations
were origami, so there is an acute attention to detail and style.

And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony. Translation, not
an epic.

Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I
really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn.  I SO do not
want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those fans!).

Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really
would appreciate hearing about it.


Thanks,

Mill




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From aburke at iinet.net.au  Fri May 27 11:16:06 2005
From: aburke at iinet.net.au (Andrew Burke)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 23:16:06 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding
References: <20b.1d34a6d.2fc88401@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c562cf$01932520$cdaf3bcb@andrewbu>

You can only extract money for the Arts off the City Fathers & Mothers if you sound high fallutin'... Your Buks don't win bucks.

Andrew
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 10:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding


  Tad, it strkes me as a bit goofy and now there is something 'bandwagonish' about it all. Also, "laureate" is rather high-flallutin, esp when you've read some of poetry of the poets named to (or elected or lobbied into) these honorary posts.
  Nothing wrong per se with every burg having a Plumber Laureate
  either.
  Finnegan

  In a message dated 5/26/2005 9:25:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes:
    Why is this a problem? That a small area wants to honor a local poet?

    Tad Richards
    http://www.opus40.org/
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: JforJames at aol.com 
      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
      Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:27 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding


      In a message dated 5/26/2005 3:42:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:


        San Francisco Poet Laureate 2005-07
        Nomination Form




      We just recently had a Poet Laureate named for 
      the town of West Hartford CT....a Poet Laureate
      for every town and hamlet...a Poet Laureate of 
      the corner of Euclid & Division Stteets. A Poet Laureate
      of the lost hupcap propped against the maple
      near the on-ramp to I-84.  A Poet Laureate of
      wooden palettes stacked behind the dumpster.
      Finnegan 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Fri May 27 10:28:14 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:28:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <200505261255898.SM03524@gateway>
References: <200505261255898.SM03524@gateway>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505271023490.17869@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

Maybe I shouldn't have been too glib about technology.  Last night,
between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 12:18 p.m., as I slept in the next
room (!!!) and my children slept upstairs, someone entered my house and
departed with my car/house keys, both laptops, 20 bucks from my wallet and
a cluster of bananas.

bananas...and why (I am so sick) does that little detail, in the midst of
my rage and disgust - tug at my heart.  Some little hippie crackhead
grabbing food for one more day of being a colossal pain in the ass to all
of society...

REVENGE POEMS, ANYONE????????????????

Well, Chris, when you come here with your band...lock the van, buddy.


On Thu, 26 May 2005, Crisman Cooley wrote:

> I admit an occasional desire to say something that will obviate all future
> discussion.  It hasn't worked so far.  Even _The Waste Land_ did not create
> a lasting hush in the world of poetry.  (Vain idea!)
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> >
> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been no
> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> >
>
> > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:10 -0400
> > From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> >
> > I thought it was just me. The list has been awfully quiet lately. I
> > need things to read--keep up the chatter, folks.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From aburke at iinet.net.au  Fri May 27 11:37:41 2005
From: aburke at iinet.net.au (Andrew Burke)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 23:37:41 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there
References: <200505261255898.SM03524@gateway>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505271023490.17869@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <003101c562d2$058b5a00$cdaf3bcb@andrewbu>

Kerry - so sad for you. It is such an invasion of your private security too
isn't it. All the goods gone is one thing, but the awful feeling of some
jerk coming in and defiling your space - it's frigging awful. I had a string
of them once, in my business, and it was incredibly unsettling. So, my deep
felt commiserations.

Andrew

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there


> Maybe I shouldn't have been too glib about technology.  Last night,
> between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 12:18 p.m., as I slept in the next
> room (!!!) and my children slept upstairs, someone entered my house and
> departed with my car/house keys, both laptops, 20 bucks from my wallet and
> a cluster of bananas.
>
> bananas...and why (I am so sick) does that little detail, in the midst of
> my rage and disgust - tug at my heart.  Some little hippie crackhead
> grabbing food for one more day of being a colossal pain in the ass to all
> of society...
>
> REVENGE POEMS, ANYONE????????????????
>
> Well, Chris, when you come here with your band...lock the van, buddy.
>
>
> On Thu, 26 May 2005, Crisman Cooley wrote:
>
> > I admit an occasional desire to say something that will obviate all
future
> > discussion.  It hasn't worked so far.  Even _The Waste Land_ did not
create
> > a lasting hush in the world of poetry.  (Vain idea!)
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
> > > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> > >
> > > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been
no
> > > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> > >
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:10 -0400
> > > From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> > >
> > > I thought it was just me. The list has been awfully quiet lately. I
> > > need things to read--keep up the chatter, folks.
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May 27 11:54:43 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:54:43 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there
References: <200505261255898.SM03524@gateway>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505271023490.17869@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <00ed01c562d4$66389460$068e3052@ANNY>

220.46 lb. multiplied by 5 (5 quintals) that was the weight of the safe of a 
person my father knows who owns a hotel in the mountains, stolen a couple of 
days ago - the safe was for the guests of the hotel which is luckily closed 
being spring out of season (summer and winter). Still a couple of days ago, 
H. a good friend of mine, when she woke up she had the unpleasant suprise to 
notice that they had done a hole in her door to gather maybe 150 euros in 
all by looking everywhere, bags and jackets and what-have-you around. She 
was a little under shock.

I am terribly sorry for you Kerry. If this can help.
Take care, Anny

From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 4:28 PM


> Maybe I shouldn't have been too glib about technology.  Last night,
> between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 12:18 p.m., as I slept in the next
> room (!!!) and my children slept upstairs, someone entered my house and
> departed with my car/house keys, both laptops, 20 bucks from my wallet and
> a cluster of bananas.
>
> bananas...and why (I am so sick) does that little detail, in the midst of
> my rage and disgust - tug at my heart.  Some little hippie crackhead
> grabbing food for one more day of being a colossal pain in the ass to all
> of society...
>
> REVENGE POEMS, ANYONE????????????????
>
> Well, Chris, when you come here with your band...lock the van, buddy.
>
>
> On Thu, 26 May 2005, Crisman Cooley wrote:
>
>> I admit an occasional desire to say something that will obviate all 
>> future
>> discussion.  It hasn't worked so far.  Even _The Waste Land_ did not 
>> create
>> a lasting hush in the world of poetry.  (Vain idea!)
>>
>>
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
>> > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
>> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
>> >
>> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been 
>> > no
>> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
>> >
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:10 -0400
>> > From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
>> >
>> > I thought it was just me. The list has been awfully quiet lately. I
>> > need things to read--keep up the chatter, folks.
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri May 27 11:59:17 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:59:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding
References: <20b.1d34a6d.2fc88401@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010101c562d5$099f0620$068e3052@ANNY>


I liked James little tale of the laureates growing as mushrooms all around the highways. While Tad is quite serious, and in his own way, right.
We do not have any Poet Laureates around here, they haven't invented it, yet. I guess that if they did, things would be even more competitive than what they already are, and why not - the usual prot?g?s would win. 
Therefore, if for a moment I cheered the idea and tried to spread it, I finally shut up and continued reading.

Care, Anny
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 4:09 PM


  Tad, it strkes me as a bit goofy and now there is something 'bandwagonish' about it all. Also, "laureate" is rather high-flallutin, esp when you've read some of poetry of the poets named to (or elected or lobbied into) these honorary posts.
  Nothing wrong per se with every burg having a Plumber Laureate
  either.
  Finnegan

  In a message dated 5/26/2005 9:25:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes:
    Why is this a problem? That a small area wants to honor a local poet?

    Tad Richards
    http://www.opus40.org/
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: JforJames at aol.com 
      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
      Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:27 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding


      In a message dated 5/26/2005 3:42:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:


        San Francisco Poet Laureate 2005-07
        Nomination Form




      We just recently had a Poet Laureate named for 
      the town of West Hartford CT....a Poet Laureate
      for every town and hamlet...a Poet Laureate of 
      the corner of Euclid & Division Stteets. A Poet Laureate
      of the lost hupcap propped against the maple
      near the on-ramp to I-84.  A Poet Laureate of
      wooden palettes stacked behind the dumpster.
      Finnegan 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad at opus40.org  Fri May 27 12:13:30 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:13:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding
References: <20b.1d34a6d.2fc88401@aol.com>
	<010101c562d5$099f0620$068e3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <010a01c562d7$09057350$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Paraphrasing Hugo, you have to be a bit goofy to get into the poetry racket.

re plumber laureates -- this is irrelevant, but a story I've always loved. When we bought a house in Kingston, NY several years ago, it had an old GE furnace - virtually an antique - and we were told that the one guy who could repair it was Art Collins. Sure enough, he came a couple of times. Then one time it broke down in the middle of the night, and since Art Collins was elderly, we weren't sure we should call him...so we called the oil company. Then we decided to give Art a try, and he said he'd be right over.

He came.

About 15 minutes later, the guy from the oil company came - a longhaired kid in his twenties. He did a series of takes, as follows.

"My God...that's an old GE."

...

"Then you must be Art Collins -- I've always wanted to meet you."


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 11:59 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding



  I liked James little tale of the laureates growing as mushrooms all around the highways. While Tad is quite serious, and in his own way, right.
  We do not have any Poet Laureates around here, they haven't invented it, yet. I guess that if they did, things would be even more competitive than what they already are, and why not - the usual prot?g?s would win. 
  Therefore, if for a moment I cheered the idea and tried to spread it, I finally shut up and continued reading.

  Care, Anny
    From: JforJames at aol.com 
    Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 4:09 PM


    Tad, it strkes me as a bit goofy and now there is something 'bandwagonish' about it all. Also, "laureate" is rather high-flallutin, esp when you've read some of poetry of the poets named to (or elected or lobbied into) these honorary posts.
    Nothing wrong per se with every burg having a Plumber Laureate
    either.
    Finnegan

    In a message dated 5/26/2005 9:25:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes:
      Why is this a problem? That a small area wants to honor a local poet?

      Tad Richards
      http://www.opus40.org/
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: JforJames at aol.com 
        To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
        Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:27 PM
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] sAN Francisco pOet LaurEate /forwarding


        In a message dated 5/26/2005 3:42:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:


          San Francisco Poet Laureate 2005-07
          Nomination Form




        We just recently had a Poet Laureate named for 
        the town of West Hartford CT....a Poet Laureate
        for every town and hamlet...a Poet Laureate of 
        the corner of Euclid & Division Stteets. A Poet Laureate
        of the lost hupcap propped against the maple
        near the on-ramp to I-84.  A Poet Laureate of
        wooden palettes stacked behind the dumpster.
        Finnegan 


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri May 27 12:53:04 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:53:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0505271023490.17869@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
References: <200505261255898.SM03524@gateway>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505271023490.17869@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a050527095369109925@mail.gmail.com>

Kerry,
 This probably won't make you feel any better, but here's one of my favorite 
quotations:
 "The thief steals from himself. The swindler swindles himself. For the real 
price is knowledge and virtue, whereof wealth and credit are signs. These 
signs, like paper money, may be counterfeited or stolen, but that which they 
represent, namely, knowledge and virtue, cannot be counterfeited or stolen." 
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
 With sympathy,
 Jeff Newberry

 On 5/27/05, Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu> wrote: 
> 
> Maybe I shouldn't have been too glib about technology. Last night,
> between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 12:18 p.m., as I slept in the next
> room (!!!) and my children slept upstairs, someone entered my house and
> departed with my car/house keys, both laptops, 20 bucks from my wallet and
> a cluster of bananas.
> 
> bananas...and why (I am so sick) does that little detail, in the midst of
> my rage and disgust - tug at my heart. Some little hippie crackhead
> grabbing food for one more day of being a colossal pain in the ass to all
> of society...
> 
> REVENGE POEMS, ANYONE????????????????
> 
> Well, Chris, when you come here with your band...lock the van, buddy.
> 
> 
> On Thu, 26 May 2005, Crisman Cooley wrote:
> 
> > I admit an occasional desire to say something that will obviate all 
> future
> > discussion. It hasn't worked so far. Even _The Waste Land_ did not 
> create
> > a lasting hush in the world of poetry. (Vain idea!)
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
> > > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> > >
> > > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been 
> no
> > > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> > >
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:10 -0400
> > > From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> > >
> > > I thought it was just me. The list has been awfully quiet lately. I
> > > need things to read--keep up the chatter, folks.
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri May 27 12:54:15 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:54:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <007001c562c7$be6214c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <s296cb43.070@risd.edu> <007001c562c7$be6214c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05052709542a0557a9@mail.gmail.com>

Read Alan Dugan's "Love Song: I and Thou." It's a good one.
 Jeff Newberry
 

 On 5/27/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote: 
> 
> Mairead -- I like that one.
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
> To: <grahamd at ripon.edu>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 7:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Wedding Suggestions
> 
> 
> What the hell -- I've got one too:
> 
> SHORT POEM FOR A WEDDING
> 
> May I invite you for coffee?
> May I invite you for lunch?
> May I invite you for a spin by the river on Sunday?
> May I invite you to dinner?
> May I ask for a kiss?
> May I ask if you'd like a ride home?
> May I ask to come in?
> May I ask to see where you live for the very first time?
> May I ask to see you?
> Again? May I take you to dinner
> & dinner & dinner?
> May you say yes.
> May I ask to see you?
> May you say yes.
> May I ask to be there when our first child is born?
> May I see you like that?
> May I see you like this & like that?
> May I touch you?
> In this light & this light & that?
> May I carry groceries to our car?
> May I cook dinner?
> May I clean up?
> May I lie down beside you &
> Listen*May I tickle your feet?
> May I ask you to dinner
> & dinner & dinner?
> And may you say yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >>> grahamd at ripon.edu 05/26/05 11:49 PM >>>
> My favorite wedding poem:
> 
> SUMMONS
> 
> 
> Keep me from going to sleep too soon
> Or if I go to sleep too soon
> Come wake me up. Come any hour
> Of night. Come whistling up the road.
> Stomp on the porch. Bang on the door.
> Make me get out of bed and come
> And let you in and light a light.
> Tell me the northern lights are on
> And make me look. Or tell me the clouds
> Are doing something to the moon
> They never did before, and show me.
> See that I see. Talk to me till
> I?m half as wide awake as you
> And start to dress wondering why
> I ever went to bed at all.
> Tell me the walking is superb.
> Not only tell me but persuade me.
> You know I?m not too hard persuaded.
> 
> --Robert Francis, The Sound I Listened For (1944)
> 
> 
> 
> on 5/26/05 9:53 PM, Bill Morgan at wwmorgan at ilstu.edu wrote:
> 
> How about Wendell Berry's "The Dance"?
> 
> At 09:32 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> Here's a very non-academic thread.
> One of my best friends in the world is getting married (over the 4th of
> July). He's a die-hard Italian New Yorker, and she's Japanese. They adore
> Ammons and Wallace Stevens and jazz and the color orange. Their 
> invitations
> were origami, so there is an acute attention to detail and style.
> 
> And, I was asked to read a short poem for their ceremony. Translation, not
> an epic.
> 
> Presently, I am pouring through books, trying to find a perfect fit. . . I
> really like Neruda, especially, "The Infinite One" but am torn. I SO do 
> not
> want to select "the usual suspects" or ee cummings (sorry for those 
> fans!).
> 
> Please, do not do any research, but if anyone has a suggestion, I really
> would appreciate hearing about it.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From chan_jt at hotmail.com  Fri May 27 21:48:20 2005
From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (JT Chan)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 01:48:20 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Going Still to Listen (new on blog)
Message-ID: <BAY23-F32F477F8F0EC128D247B138A010@phx.gbl>

hi

please check out Going Still to Listen: A conversation about Jill Chan's 
Poetry, new on

http://navelorange.blogspot.com

Thanks very much.

_________________________________________________________________
Read the latest Hollywood gossip  @  http://xtramsn.co.nz/entertainment



From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Fri May 27 22:51:40 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 22:51:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050527095369109925@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200505261255898.SM03524@gateway>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505271023490.17869@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<731bb17a050527095369109925@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1117248700.4297dcbc0de06@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

This did and does make me feel better, Jeff.  Thank you.


Quoting Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>:

> Kerry,
>  This probably won't make you feel any better, but here's one of my favorite
> 
> quotations:
>  "The thief steals from himself. The swindler swindles himself. For the real
> 
> price is knowledge and virtue, whereof wealth and credit are signs. These 
> signs, like paper money, may be counterfeited or stolen, but that which they
> 
> represent, namely, knowledge and virtue, cannot be counterfeited or stolen."
> 
> --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>  With sympathy,
>  Jeff Newberry
> 
>  On 5/27/05, Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu> wrote: 
> > 
> > Maybe I shouldn't have been too glib about technology. Last night,
> > between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 12:18 p.m., as I slept in the next
> > room (!!!) and my children slept upstairs, someone entered my house and
> > departed with my car/house keys, both laptops, 20 bucks from my wallet and
> > a cluster of bananas.
> > 
> > bananas...and why (I am so sick) does that little detail, in the midst of
> > my rage and disgust - tug at my heart. Some little hippie crackhead
> > grabbing food for one more day of being a colossal pain in the ass to all
> > of society...
> > 
> > REVENGE POEMS, ANYONE????????????????
> > 
> > Well, Chris, when you come here with your band...lock the van, buddy.
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, 26 May 2005, Crisman Cooley wrote:
> > 
> > > I admit an occasional desire to say something that will obviate all 
> > future
> > > discussion. It hasn't worked so far. Even _The Waste Land_ did not 
> > create
> > > a lasting hush in the world of poetry. (Vain idea!)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
> > > > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> > > >
> > > > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been 
> > no
> > > > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:10 -0400
> > > > From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> > > >
> > > > I thought it was just me. The list has been awfully quiet lately. I
> > > > need things to read--keep up the chatter, folks.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz
> 
> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> 





From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Fri May 27 22:56:30 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 22:56:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <00ed01c562d4$66389460$068e3052@ANNY>
References: <200505261255898.SM03524@gateway>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505271023490.17869@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<00ed01c562d4$66389460$068e3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1117248990.4297ddde76ad4@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

There is a kind of wild desperation, I think.  Is it just drugs?  I guess drugs 
are enough - anyhow thatnk you Anny.  I am writing you from a new USED laptop 
which I got for about 200 bucks - it is tiny and cute - an old Dell Latitude - 
but makes this kind of awful buzzing sound that make me think of being alone in 
at night in an electrical power plant.  Kind of ANtonioni-ish.  WHen the 
insurance money comes, I may do something a little better - I replaced my kids 
computer too - so that that great endless conversation could continue on 
instant messaging - got them something really nice - 

wow - the buzzing died down - the machine LIKES that it is talking to 
Italy...thank you for your kind words - Kerry

Quoting Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>:

> 220.46 lb. multiplied by 5 (5 quintals) that was the weight of the safe of a
> 
> person my father knows who owns a hotel in the mountains, stolen a couple of
> 
> days ago - the safe was for the guests of the hotel which is luckily closed 
> being spring out of season (summer and winter). Still a couple of days ago, 
> H. a good friend of mine, when she woke up she had the unpleasant suprise to
> 
> notice that they had done a hole in her door to gather maybe 150 euros in 
> all by looking everywhere, bags and jackets and what-have-you around. She 
> was a little under shock.
> 
> I am terribly sorry for you Kerry. If this can help.
> Take care, Anny
> 
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 4:28 PM
> 
> 
> > Maybe I shouldn't have been too glib about technology.  Last night,
> > between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 12:18 p.m., as I slept in the next
> > room (!!!) and my children slept upstairs, someone entered my house and
> > departed with my car/house keys, both laptops, 20 bucks from my wallet and
> > a cluster of bananas.
> >
> > bananas...and why (I am so sick) does that little detail, in the midst of
> > my rage and disgust - tug at my heart.  Some little hippie crackhead
> > grabbing food for one more day of being a colossal pain in the ass to all
> > of society...
> >
> > REVENGE POEMS, ANYONE????????????????
> >
> > Well, Chris, when you come here with your band...lock the van, buddy.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 26 May 2005, Crisman Cooley wrote:
> >
> >> I admit an occasional desire to say something that will obviate all 
> >> future
> >> discussion.  It hasn't worked so far.  Even _The Waste Land_ did not 
> >> create
> >> a lasting hush in the world of poetry.  (Vain idea!)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
> >> > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> >> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> >> >
> >> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been 
> >> > no
> >> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> >> >
> >>
> >> > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:10 -0400
> >> > From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> >> >
> >> > I thought it was just me. The list has been awfully quiet lately. I
> >> > need things to read--keep up the chatter, folks.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Fri May 27 22:58:30 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 22:58:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there
In-Reply-To: <003101c562d2$058b5a00$cdaf3bcb@andrewbu>
References: <200505261255898.SM03524@gateway>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0505271023490.17869@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<003101c562d2$058b5a00$cdaf3bcb@andrewbu>
Message-ID: <1117249110.4297de56e8ec9@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

Thankyou Andrew.  I think I am a little dissociated - I mean that.  I won't get 
reaaly enraged until next week THEN it will not be pretty.  ANyhow, I like 
Jeff's quote - let it all come around...!  best and thanks - Kerry


Quoting Andrew Burke <aburke at iinet.net.au>:

> Kerry - so sad for you. It is such an invasion of your private security too
> isn't it. All the goods gone is one thing, but the awful feeling of some
> jerk coming in and defiling your space - it's frigging awful. I had a string
> of them once, in my business, and it was incredibly unsettling. So, my deep
> felt commiserations.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 10:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there
> 
> 
> > Maybe I shouldn't have been too glib about technology.  Last night,
> > between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 12:18 p.m., as I slept in the next
> > room (!!!) and my children slept upstairs, someone entered my house and
> > departed with my car/house keys, both laptops, 20 bucks from my wallet and
> > a cluster of bananas.
> >
> > bananas...and why (I am so sick) does that little detail, in the midst of
> > my rage and disgust - tug at my heart.  Some little hippie crackhead
> > grabbing food for one more day of being a colossal pain in the ass to all
> > of society...
> >
> > REVENGE POEMS, ANYONE????????????????
> >
> > Well, Chris, when you come here with your band...lock the van, buddy.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 26 May 2005, Crisman Cooley wrote:
> >
> > > I admit an occasional desire to say something that will obviate all
> future
> > > discussion.  It hasn't worked so far.  Even _The Waste Land_ did not
> create
> > > a lasting hush in the world of poetry.  (Vain idea!)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
> > > > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> > > >
> > > > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been
> no
> > > > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:10 -0400
> > > > From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
> > > >
> > > > I thought it was just me. The list has been awfully quiet lately. I
> > > > need things to read--keep up the chatter, folks.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From cc at opus0.com  Sat May 28 07:55:59 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 06:55:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Ideas preconditional to poetry: the Marriage
In-Reply-To: <200505270248.j4R2muRe009342@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJCEJECDAA.cc@opus0.com>

Paul, a few thoughts below.

> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:19:16 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ideas preconditional to poetry: the Marriage
> 	of	Heaven and Hell
>
> de Sade talks about the 'what if', ie what if there
> are no rules (for certain) people and what is the
> limit, if any, of human desire, cruelty, hatred,
> perversity etc etc.
> I think it's important to entertain the notion that de
> Sade only reckoned that this situation of Anarchy was
> only for him and similar white, male, upper-class
> people.

In _Justine_, two sisters, Justine and Juliette, are poor and orphaned.
Juliette, who embraces vice, sleeps her way to the top.  Justine, who
embrace virtue, is punished for it at every turn.  The picture presented is
of a world in which the most predatory thrive most.  Upper classes, then,
simply have more practice at predation.  As for gender: Sade specifically
states that women are more cruel than men.


> One might think that this is the situation we
> have and work outwards.
> The other thing that occured to me was that de Sade is
> an anagram of illicit orgasm, so there.  (bet that
> caught you all off-balance...).

Can you spell this out?

> What are rules anyway?  Are they prohibitions?  Or
> guidance notes?

Good questions.  Possible answer: rules are conventional boundaries (set by
agreement).  Question remains: who's agreement?  who's excluded from the
convention?

> Are they repressive or a 'necessary
> evil'?  What happens when a 'necessary evil' becomes
> Auschwitz or the Gulag or a British mental hospital?

Conventions made by the masters (in master/slave mentality) for the masters,
clearly.

> Freud would not have been surprised by de Sade because
> he believed that man was innately bad, deranged,
> perverse

'id-driven' might be more accurate? --suffering and causing suffering in an
attempt to fulfill the insatiable id.  (Hence, too, Buddhist suppression of
desire).  _Civilization and its Discontents_ is an attempt to grapple with
the issue of human suffering generally, coming from 3 sources: the external
world, the physical body, and interactions with fellow humans.  What I love
about this essay is Freud's refusal to turn away from the difficulty of the
situation.

> and that that derangement had to be contained
> within civilisation and its rules, mores and
> prohibitions.  His antagonist Wilhelm Reich, on the
> contrary, believed that the pseudo-civilisation we
> inherit is highly repressive, that man is good and
> that this goodness is cruelly perverted by the
> prohibitions imposed externally by the order/the
> system/the rulers/the police whoever.
> My own belief is that one should always question the
> necessity of rules in everyday life and never assume
> anything to be without first of all examining it in
> some detail.

Yes, the notion of personal responsibility for the intent (not the letter)
of the rule...and Thoreau's idea of opposing rules when the intent is
contrary to the dictates of conscience.

> Today I went to the music library in town and donated
> 2 Mozart operas, a laudable act if you like.  I could
> have gone to a second hand shop and sold them,
> possibly for a matter of a few pounds but I realised
> that this was the best way to dispose of these things
> I didn't need.  Public wealth, public resources and
> public space makes sense, ultimately, even  though we
> are convinced constantly to the contrary by all the
> advertisement etc that seeks to convince us that we
> are alone and devoid of context, community and the
> rest.  This individualism is something we should
> embrace (we are told) but the truth is that such
> individualism isn't really for us but for our masters
> who can afford the luxury of greed and individualism.
> I've seen innumerable examples of goodness and
> altruism happening when space is made public and when
> collectivism and the values it bears, are allowed to
> flourish.

Me too.  Community is (still) a radical idea.

> I think that de Sade's arguments are connected to the
> arguments of politics and the place that he makes for
> the guiltless individual who is not a psychopath but
> who has decided to live without a rule book.  But this
> is not de Sade either.
> (sorry I have to go now, will consider this later...)
> PM




From cc at opus0.com  Sat May 28 09:26:17 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:26:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: RE: Yeats
In-Reply-To: <200505270248.j4R2muRe009342@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJKEJECDAA.cc@opus0.com>

Oh yes I agree that the marriage of form and content, (what I hope I am not
remiss in calling 'structure'), matters.  And I have believed that if I
loved structure enough I might have a fair token someday that she who reigns
in mortal hearts from eleven to ninety, chancing to walk among us,
necessarily in disguise, had taken notice and had smiled.

> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:56:25 -0400
> From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]
>
> Indeedy I was. :)
>
> You just happened to name my two favorite poets and my two greatest
> influences. I'd be more than happy to follow in their footsteps, if I
> could manage it. And you stroke my ego too, calling me brave to follow
> them! What could be better?
>
> I'm glad to find a kindred spirit in this stuffy old list full of
> fuddy-duddies arguing form and rhetoric separate from the poem's
> content. ;) In my humble opinion, a poem's content should not be
> separated in discussion from its formal elements... especially when
> the importance of the poet is at hand. The poet's message is just as
> important as his technical skill. Just like trying to appreciate a
> work of art for the brush strokes alone, without regard for its
> subject.
>
> Of course, I'm only a student of poetry, and hardly a master.
> What do I know?
>




From clitophon at yahoo.com  Sat May 28 09:26:57 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 06:26:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Ideas preconditional to poetry: the Marriage
In-Reply-To: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJCEJECDAA.cc@opus0.com>
Message-ID: <20050528132657.46649.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com>

yes, I have Justine in the house but haven't read it
yet.  An American friend warned me against a 'naive
enthusiasm' for de Sade, telling me that de Sade was a
criminal but so what?  What is the connection between
his works and his biography and in what way does
knowing de Sade's biography influence my reading of
his work?  Even if de Sade had been a mass murderer,
that still wouldn't mean that his works would be
totally discredited but I think most people would view
them differently.  As it is, de Sade is more hero than
villain in my view, although he was also partly
villain (nobody's perfect).  I suppose that (nobody's
perfect) could be a subtitle of 'Justine' or any of de
Sade's books, in fact.  Maybe the urge towards human
perfectibility is what underscores my friend's
comments and any Utopian account of society or
politics, in that we can be sure that we are okay but
the Marquis was a degenerate, rapist etc etc.  I'm not
so sure if the Marquis was so bad and, in any
case,....

--- Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:

> Paul, a few thoughts below.
> 
> > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:19:16 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ideas preconditional to
> poetry: the Marriage
> > 	of	Heaven and Hell
> >
> > de Sade talks about the 'what if', ie what if
> there
> > are no rules (for certain) people and what is the
> > limit, if any, of human desire, cruelty, hatred,
> > perversity etc etc.
> > I think it's important to entertain the notion
> that de
> > Sade only reckoned that this situation of Anarchy
> was
> > only for him and similar white, male, upper-class
> > people.
> 
> In _Justine_, two sisters, Justine and Juliette, are
> poor and orphaned.
> Juliette, who embraces vice, sleeps her way to the
> top.  Justine, who
> embrace virtue, is punished for it at every turn. 
> The picture presented is
> of a world in which the most predatory thrive most. 
> Upper classes, then,
> simply have more practice at predation.  As for
> gender: Sade specifically
> states that women are more cruel than men.
> 
> 
> > One might think that this is the situation we
> > have and work outwards.
> > The other thing that occured to me was that de
> Sade is
> > an anagram of illicit orgasm, so there.  (bet that
> > caught you all off-balance...).
> 
> Can you spell this out?
> 
> > What are rules anyway?  Are they prohibitions?  Or
> > guidance notes?
> 
> Good questions.  Possible answer: rules are
> conventional boundaries (set by
> agreement).  Question remains: who's agreement? 
> who's excluded from the
> convention?
> 
> > Are they repressive or a 'necessary
> > evil'?  What happens when a 'necessary evil'
> becomes
> > Auschwitz or the Gulag or a British mental
> hospital?
> 
> Conventions made by the masters (in master/slave
> mentality) for the masters,
> clearly.
> 
> > Freud would not have been surprised by de Sade
> because
> > he believed that man was innately bad, deranged,
> > perverse
> 
> 'id-driven' might be more accurate? --suffering and
> causing suffering in an
> attempt to fulfill the insatiable id.  (Hence, too,
> Buddhist suppression of
> desire).  _Civilization and its Discontents_ is an
> attempt to grapple with
> the issue of human suffering generally, coming from
> 3 sources: the external
> world, the physical body, and interactions with
> fellow humans.  What I love
> about this essay is Freud's refusal to turn away
> from the difficulty of the
> situation.
> 
> > and that that derangement had to be contained
> > within civilisation and its rules, mores and
> > prohibitions.  His antagonist Wilhelm Reich, on
> the
> > contrary, believed that the pseudo-civilisation we
> > inherit is highly repressive, that man is good and
> > that this goodness is cruelly perverted by the
> > prohibitions imposed externally by the order/the
> > system/the rulers/the police whoever.
> > My own belief is that one should always question
> the
> > necessity of rules in everyday life and never
> assume
> > anything to be without first of all examining it
> in
> > some detail.
> 
> Yes, the notion of personal responsibility for the
> intent (not the letter)
> of the rule...and Thoreau's idea of opposing rules
> when the intent is
> contrary to the dictates of conscience.
> 
> > Today I went to the music library in town and
> donated
> > 2 Mozart operas, a laudable act if you like.  I
> could
> > have gone to a second hand shop and sold them,
> > possibly for a matter of a few pounds but I
> realised
> > that this was the best way to dispose of these
> things
> > I didn't need.  Public wealth, public resources
> and
> > public space makes sense, ultimately, even  though
> we
> > are convinced constantly to the contrary by all
> the
> > advertisement etc that seeks to convince us that
> we
> > are alone and devoid of context, community and the
> > rest.  This individualism is something we should
> > embrace (we are told) but the truth is that such
> > individualism isn't really for us but for our
> masters
> > who can afford the luxury of greed and
> individualism.
> > I've seen innumerable examples of goodness and
> > altruism happening when space is made public and
> when
> > collectivism and the values it bears, are allowed
> to
> > flourish.
> 
> Me too.  Community is (still) a radical idea.
> 
> > I think that de Sade's arguments are connected to
> the
> > arguments of politics and the place that he makes
> for
> > the guiltless individual who is not a psychopath
> but
> > who has decided to live without a rule book.  But
> this
> > is not de Sade either.
> > (sorry I have to go now, will consider this
> later...)
> > PM
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/


From cc at opus0.com  Sat May 28 11:14:42 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:14:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Ideas preconditional to poetry: the Marriage
In-Reply-To: <200505270248.j4R2muRe009342@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJGEJGCDAA.cc@opus0.com>

James,
Maybe a few other variables belong in the equation too, or pigeonholes in
the dovecote, like: madman, pauper, convict, philosopher, masochist.

c

> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:16:55 EDT
> From: JforJames at aol.com
> Subject:
>
> In a message dated 5/26/2005 4:19:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> clitophon at yahoo.com writes:
>
> > think that de Sade's arguments are connected to the
> > arguments of politics and the place that he makes for
> > the guiltless individual who is not a psychopath but
> > who has decided to live without a rule book
>
> de Sade = aristocratic erotics of exploitation
> Finnegan




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat May 28 15:08:45 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:08:45 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Anybody there
References: <200505261255898.SM03524@gateway><Pine.GSO.4.55.0505271023490.17869@shell1.oit.umass.edu><00ed01c562d4$66389460$068e3052@ANNY>
	<1117248990.4297ddde76ad4@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <002a01c563b8$abc9ab60$a1af3852@ANNY>

Hi Kerry - in my cases I think it is organized crime. I just finished this:

I woke up this morning

and they had stolen my car

my house my bed my eyes

my mind my family my fate 

my job my friends 

 

left there on the scorching ground

 

I went downtown and got a plastic heart

a couple of colored marbles for my eyes

green rubber gloves for hands a bouquet

of narcissi for my hair - red and blue

crisscrossed ribbons to let them know I

was the queen & gathered my army shining

in the foggy stench of the melting highway

 

this till the end of the day

 

without bed I went to sleep

and on the following morning

I was someone else.

 

 

Anny




From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 4:56 AM


> There is a kind of wild desperation, I think.  Is it just drugs?  I guess drugs 
> are enough - anyhow thatnk you Anny.  I am writing you from a new USED laptop 
> which I got for about 200 bucks - it is tiny and cute - an old Dell Latitude - 
> but makes this kind of awful buzzing sound that make me think of being alone in 
> at night in an electrical power plant.  Kind of ANtonioni-ish.  WHen the 
> insurance money comes, I may do something a little better - I replaced my kids 
> computer too - so that that great endless conversation could continue on 
> instant messaging - got them something really nice - 
> 
> wow - the buzzing died down - the machine LIKES that it is talking to 
> Italy...thank you for your kind words - Kerry
> 
> Quoting Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>:
> 
>> 220.46 lb. multiplied by 5 (5 quintals) that was the weight of the safe of a
>> 
>> person my father knows who owns a hotel in the mountains, stolen a couple of
>> 
>> days ago - the safe was for the guests of the hotel which is luckily closed 
>> being spring out of season (summer and winter). Still a couple of days ago, 
>> H. a good friend of mine, when she woke up she had the unpleasant suprise to
>> 
>> notice that they had done a hole in her door to gather maybe 150 euros in 
>> all by looking everywhere, bags and jackets and what-have-you around. She 
>> was a little under shock.
>> 
>> I am terribly sorry for you Kerry. If this can help.
>> Take care, Anny
>> 
>> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 4:28 PM
>> 
>> 
>> > Maybe I shouldn't have been too glib about technology.  Last night,
>> > between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 12:18 p.m., as I slept in the next
>> > room (!!!) and my children slept upstairs, someone entered my house and
>> > departed with my car/house keys, both laptops, 20 bucks from my wallet and
>> > a cluster of bananas.
>> >
>> > bananas...and why (I am so sick) does that little detail, in the midst of
>> > my rage and disgust - tug at my heart.  Some little hippie crackhead
>> > grabbing food for one more day of being a colossal pain in the ass to all
>> > of society...
>> >
>> > REVENGE POEMS, ANYONE????????????????
>> >
>> > Well, Chris, when you come here with your band...lock the van, buddy.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, 26 May 2005, Crisman Cooley wrote:
>> >
>> >> I admit an occasional desire to say something that will obviate all 
>> >> future
>> >> discussion.  It hasn't worked so far.  Even _The Waste Land_ did not 
>> >> create
>> >> a lasting hush in the world of poetry.  (Vain idea!)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
>> >> > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
>> >> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
>> >> >
>> >> > This is just to see if my computer is working right - there have been 
>> >> > no
>> >> > posts yet today from this list...that can't be right???!!
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:10 -0400
>> >> > From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
>> >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there
>> >> >
>> >> > I thought it was just me. The list has been awfully quiet lately. I
>> >> > need things to read--keep up the chatter, folks.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> New-Poetry mailing list
>> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat May 28 19:59:14 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:59:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Ideas preconditional to poetry: the Marriage
Message-ID: <e3.1477b79a.2fca5fd2@aol.com>

I've tried to think better of the man...but in the end
he's just a good example of how the rich have
their way with the poor (morals aside, it's politics).
Finnegan

In a message dated 5/28/2005 11:15:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, cc at opus0.com 
writes:

> Maybe a few other variables belong in the equation too, or pigeonholes in
> the dovecote, like: madman, pauper, convict, philosopher, masochist.
> 
> c
> 
> >Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:16:55 EDT
> >From: JforJames at aol.com
> >Subject:
> >
> >In a message dated 5/26/2005 4:19:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> >clitophon at yahoo.com writes:
> >
> >>think that de Sade's arguments are connected to the
> >>arguments of politics and the place that he makes for
> >>the guiltless individual who is not a psychopath but
> >>who has decided to live without a rule book
> >
> >de Sade = aristocratic erotics of exploitation
> >Finnegan
> 

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From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu  Sat May 28 14:52:00 2005
From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 13:52:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE
In-Reply-To: <BEB90EB0.1254A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <00ad01c560ab$a3a7e290$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050528135029.010b4d80@cyrus.undsmhs.net>


>on 5/24/05 4:57 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:
>
>Depp would be great. Perfect, actually. Downey would still be good.
>====================

Agreed on Depp. But if they can't get him, what about Cusack?
Too tall?

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu



From tad at opus40.org  Sat May 28 23:12:55 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 23:12:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casting POE
References: <00ad01c560ab$a3a7e290$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20050528135029.010b4d80@cyrus.undsmhs.net>
Message-ID: <001401c563fc$5716af20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

They could always have him walk in a ditch, like Sophia Loren with Alan 
Ladd.
Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Casting POE


>
>>on 5/24/05 4:57 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:
>>
>>Depp would be great. Perfect, actually. Downey would still be good.
>>====================
>
> Agreed on Depp. But if they can't get him, what about Cusack?
> Too tall?
>
> Richard W. Wilsnack
> rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au  Sun May 29 04:10:29 2005
From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:10:29 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Malleable Jangle will be...
In-Reply-To: <200505281600.j4SG04Rf020526@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20050529081029.76434.qmail@web51402.mail.yahoo.com>


Increasing family and work commitments have caused a deficit of 
available time, and as such, Malleable Jangle will be changing from a monthly 
to a quarterly. The next issue will be Winter, of course. Regards, 
Robert Lane.


Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings


Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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From bardo at optonline.net  Sun May 29 07:44:15 2005
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 07:44:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry
References: <1d5.3c81f33d.2fc25ebe@aol.com>
	<015501c55f2f$cff10cf0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <02d501c56443$bd962f90$3a95c044@MULDER>



. . . Paglia finds "too much work by the most acclaimed poets labored, affected, and verbose, intended not to communicate with the general audience but to impress their fellow poets. Poetic language has become stale and derivative." She is "shocked at how weak individual poems have become over the past forty years." Poets today "have lost ambition and no longer believe they can or should speak for their era." This situation is particularly dire because "at this time of foreboding about the future of Western culture, it is crucial to identify and preserve our finest artifacts." And you thought only our "democracy" was under attack! No, they want our Norton anthologies, too. If they hit us again, how shall we fight them, now that our poetic language has become "stale and derivative"? Of what use against their bombs will our sagging synecdoches be? If only Grumman made fresh metaphors, too... 

 This article can be found on the web at 
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050613&s=siegel 

;~)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 8:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry



   
    In a message dated 5/22/2005 5:04:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
      Why do I suspect that just about no poets more than chronologically contemporary have work in it.
    Is there another way in which to be contemporary?

    Yes, but you have to transcend literal-mindedness to be able to appreciate it.

    --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Sun May 29 07:48:14 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 07:48:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry
Message-ID: <12a.5e4bd8bc.2fcb05fe@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 5/29/2005 7:44:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
bardo at optonline.net writes:

. . . Paglia finds "too much work by the most acclaimed poets labored,  
affected, and verbose, intended not to communicate with the general audience  but 
to impress their fellow poets. Poetic language has become stale and  
derivative." She is "shocked at how weak individual poems have become  over the past 
forty years." Poets today "have lost ambition and no longer  believe they can or 
should speak for their era." This situation is  particularly dire because "at 
this time of foreboding about the future of  Western culture, it is crucial to 
identify and preserve our finest artifacts."  And you thought only our 
"democracy" was under attack! No, they want our  Norton anthologies, too. If they 
hit us again, how shall we fight them, now  that our poetic language has become 
"stale and derivative"? Of what use  against their bombs will our sagging 
synecdoches be? If only Grumman made  fresh metaphors, too... 
 



But this is just a rehash of the same thing one critic or school or another  
has been saying about poetry since, well, forever. And when someone does pick  
out "our ifnest artifiacts," I don't think it's going to be Camille  Paglia.
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun May 29 08:03:23 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 08:03:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carruth and Winters
Message-ID: <003701c56446$6a3a6f70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

In Contemporary Authors, there's a great quote on Winters from Hayden Carruth, which says, in part, "Winters is able to prove -- demonstrate irrefutably with step-by-step-arguments and copious illustrations from line and stanza -- that our favorite poets were idiots, and in the process show just why we like them so much."

But they don't give a source. Does anyone know where Carruth wrote about Winters?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun May 29 08:05:03 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 08:05:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry
References: <1d5.3c81f33d.2fc25ebe@aol.com><015501c55f2f$cff10cf0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<02d501c56443$bd962f90$3a95c044@MULDER>
Message-ID: <004601c56446$a7e1f960$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Grumman Aircraft, or Bob?

Paglia is jumping on a bandwagon here, but she's not wrong.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Daniel Zimmerman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Cc: Daniel Zimmerman 
  Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 7:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry




  . . . Paglia finds "too much work by the most acclaimed poets labored, affected, and verbose, intended not to communicate with the general audience but to impress their fellow poets. Poetic language has become stale and derivative." She is "shocked at how weak individual poems have become over the past forty years." Poets today "have lost ambition and no longer believe they can or should speak for their era." This situation is particularly dire because "at this time of foreboding about the future of Western culture, it is crucial to identify and preserve our finest artifacts." And you thought only our "democracy" was under attack! No, they want our Norton anthologies, too. If they hit us again, how shall we fight them, now that our poetic language has become "stale and derivative"? Of what use against their bombs will our sagging synecdoches be? If only Grumman made fresh metaphors, too... 

   This article can be found on the web at 
  http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050613&s=siegel 

  ;~)
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Grumman 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
    Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 8:38 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry



     
      In a message dated 5/22/2005 5:04:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
        Why do I suspect that just about no poets more than chronologically contemporary have work in it.
      Is there another way in which to be contemporary?

      Yes, but you have to transcend literal-mindedness to be able to appreciate it.

      --Bob G.


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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun May 29 10:09:41 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:09:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia's bandwagon
In-Reply-To: <004601c56446$a7e1f960$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BEBF3755.12741%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/29/05 7:05 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

Paglia is jumping on a bandwagon here, but she's not wrong.


Tad Richards
_____________________________________________

Before I jump on any bandwagon myself, I guess I'd be interested to know,
Tad, what you refer to.  If it's Paglia's opinion that "too much work by the
most acclaimed poets [is] labored, affected, and verbose," etc., then I
would tend to wonder if this isn't just a "dog bites man" kind of story?
Hasn't this always been the case, in every era?

If the notion is that contemporary poetry as a whole is somehow *weaker*
than the poetry of earlier eras, well, I have many doubts, quibbles,
qualifications, etc.

I'm wondering, also, in the most non-judgmental manner possible, is there
anyone on this list who has actually made it through Paglia's book, or are
we all (myself included) going by reviews and quoted snippets?



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


=======================================


. . . Paglia finds "too much work by the most acclaimed poets labored,
affected, and verbose, intended not to communicate with the general audience
but to impress their fellow poets. Poetic language has become stale and
derivative." She is "shocked at how weak individual poems have become over
the past forty years." Poets today "have lost ambition and no longer believe
they can or should speak for their era." This situation is particularly dire
because "at this time of foreboding about the future of Western culture, it
is crucial to identify and preserve our finest artifacts." And you thought
only our "democracy" was under attack! No, they want our Norton anthologies,
too. If they hit us again, how shall we fight them, now that our poetic
language has become "stale and derivative"? Of what use against their bombs
will our sagging synecdoches be? If only Grumman made fresh metaphors,
too... 

This article can be found on the web at
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050613&s=siegel <



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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun May 29 10:19:33 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:19:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia's bandwagon
Message-ID: <1df.3ce2b460.2fcb2975@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/29/2005 9:08:12 AM Central Daylight Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> I'm wondering, also, in the most non-judgmental manner possible, is there 
> anyone on this list who has actually made it through Paglia's book, or are we 
> all (myself included) going by reviews and quoted snippets?
> 
I can't see spending money for an anthology of poems I already have or for 
opinions that I've already heard.  However, most of the quotes of Paglia's 
judgments on the individual poems in The Nation don't sound too far off 
base--fairly safe, middle of the road readings (though liberally spiced with sex).  After 
all, Marvell's worm reference ("will try / That long preserv'd virginity") 
does sound grossly sexual.  The worms go in, the worms go out . . . 
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun May 29 10:24:27 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:24:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carruth and Winters
Message-ID: <1c3.299de461.2fcb2a9b@cs.com>

Probably the Hudson Review piece from 1968 listed in the sources.  Just a 
guess, though.
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun May 29 03:42:07 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:42:07 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ideas preconditional to poetry
In-Reply-To: <200505281600.j4SG04Re020526@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200505281600.j4SG04Re020526@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100302bebf1efdac8e@[204.215.201.203]>

Juliette's Big O

No God, no good.
The cake you'll eat
Cunningly linguistically sweet:
Devil's Food.

R i c h a r d   D i l l o n



>>Pascal's Wager
>>
>>In the seventeenth century the mathematician Blaise Pascal 
>>formulated his infamous pragmatic argument for belief in God in 
>>Pensees. The argument runs as follows:
>>
>>If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that 
>>death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in 
>>God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly 
>>disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if 
>>you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal 
>>damnation).
>>

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n

>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 06:26:57 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Ideas preconditional to poetry: the
>	Marriage
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <20050528132657.46649.qmail at web40423.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>yes, I have Justine in the house but haven't read it
>yet.  An American friend warned me against a 'naive
>enthusiasm' for de Sade, telling me that de Sade was a
>criminal but so what?  What is the connection between
>his works and his biography and in what way does
>knowing de Sade's biography influence my reading of
>his work?  Even if de Sade had been a mass murderer,
>that still wouldn't mean that his works would be
>totally discredited but I think most people would view
>them differently.  As it is, de Sade is more hero than
>villain in my view, although he was also partly
>villain (nobody's perfect).  I suppose that (nobody's
>perfect) could be a subtitle of 'Justine' or any of de
>Sade's books, in fact.  Maybe the urge towards human
>perfectibility is what underscores my friend's
>comments and any Utopian account of society or
>politics, in that we can be sure that we are okay but
>the Marquis was a degenerate, rapist etc etc.  I'm not
>so sure if the Marquis was so bad and, in any
>case,....
>
>--- Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:
>
>>  Paul, a few thoughts below.
>>
>>  > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:19:16 -0700 (PDT)
>>  > From: Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
>>  > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ideas preconditional to
>>  poetry: the Marriage
>>  >	of	Heaven and Hell
>>  >
>>  > de Sade talks about the 'what if', ie what if
>>  there
>>  > are no rules (for certain) people and what is the
>>  > limit, if any, of human desire, cruelty, hatred,
>>  > perversity etc etc.
>>  > I think it's important to entertain the notion
>  > that de
>>  > Sade only reckoned that this situation of Anarchy
>>  was
>>  > only for him and similar white, male, upper-class
>>  > people.
>>
>>  In _Justine_, two sisters, Justine and Juliette, are
>>  poor and orphaned.
>>  Juliette, who embraces vice, sleeps her way to the
>>  top.  Justine, who
>>  embrace virtue, is punished for it at every turn.
>>  The picture presented is
>>  of a world in which the most predatory thrive most.
>>  Upper classes, then,
>>  simply have more practice at predation.  As for
>>  gender: Sade specifically
>>  states that women are more cruel than men.
>>
>>
>>  > One might think that this is the situation we
>>  > have and work outwards.
>>  > The other thing that occured to me was that de
>>  Sade is
>>  > an anagram of illicit orgasm, so there.  (bet that
>>  > caught you all off-balance...).
>>
>>  Can you spell this out?
>>
>>  > What are rules anyway?  Are they prohibitions?  Or
>>  > guidance notes?
>>
>>  Good questions.  Possible answer: rules are
>>  conventional boundaries (set by
>>  agreement).  Question remains: who's agreement?
>>  who's excluded from the
>>  convention?
>>
>>  > Are they repressive or a 'necessary
>>  > evil'?  What happens when a 'necessary evil'
>>  becomes
>>  > Auschwitz or the Gulag or a British mental
>>  hospital?
>>
>>  Conventions made by the masters (in master/slave
>>  mentality) for the masters,
>>  clearly.
>>
>>  > Freud would not have been surprised by de Sade
>  > because
>>  > he believed that man was innately bad, deranged,
>>  > perverse
>>
>>  'id-driven' might be more accurate? --suffering and
>>  causing suffering in an
>>  attempt to fulfill the insatiable id.  (Hence, too,
>>  Buddhist suppression of
>>  desire).  _Civilization and its Discontents_ is an
>>  attempt to grapple with
>>  the issue of human suffering generally, coming from
>>  3 sources: the external
>>  world, the physical body, and interactions with
>>  fellow humans.  What I love
>>  about this essay is Freud's refusal to turn away
>>  from the difficulty of the
>>  situation.
>>
>>  > and that that derangement had to be contained
>>  > within civilisation and its rules, mores and
>>  > prohibitions.  His antagonist Wilhelm Reich, on
>>  the
>>  > contrary, believed that the pseudo-civilisation we
>>  > inherit is highly repressive, that man is good and
>>  > that this goodness is cruelly perverted by the
>>  > prohibitions imposed externally by the order/the
>>  > system/the rulers/the police whoever.
>>  > My own belief is that one should always question
>>  the
>>  > necessity of rules in everyday life and never
>>  assume
>>  > anything to be without first of all examining it
>>  in
>>  > some detail.
>>
>>  Yes, the notion of personal responsibility for the
>>  intent (not the letter)
>>  of the rule...and Thoreau's idea of opposing rules
>>  when the intent is
>>  contrary to the dictates of conscience.
>>
>>  > Today I went to the music library in town and
>>  donated
>>  > 2 Mozart operas, a laudable act if you like.  I
>>  could
>>  > have gone to a second hand shop and sold them,
>>  > possibly for a matter of a few pounds but I
>>  realised
>>  > that this was the best way to dispose of these
>>  things
>>  > I didn't need.  Public wealth, public resources
>>  and
>>  > public space makes sense, ultimately, even  though
>>  we
>>  > are convinced constantly to the contrary by all
>>  the
>>  > advertisement etc that seeks to convince us that
>>  we
>>  > are alone and devoid of context, community and the
>>  > rest.  This individualism is something we should
>>  > embrace (we are told) but the truth is that such
>>  > individualism isn't really for us but for our
>>  masters
>>  > who can afford the luxury of greed and
>>  individualism.
>>  > I've seen innumerable examples of goodness and
>>  > altruism happening when space is made public and
>>  when
>>  > collectivism and the values it bears, are allowed
>>  to
>>  > flourish.
>>
>>  Me too.  Community is (still) a radical idea.
>>
>>  > I think that de Sade's arguments are connected to
>>  the
>>  > arguments of politics and the place that he makes
>>  for
>>  > the guiltless individual who is not a psychopath
>>  but
>>  > who has decided to live without a rule book.  But
>>  this
>>  > is not de Sade either.
>>  > (sorry I have to go now, will consider this
>  > later...)
>>  > PM
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
>http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:14:42 -0500
>From: "Crisman Cooley" <cc at opus0.com>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Ideas preconditional to poetry: the
>	Marriage
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJGEJGCDAA.cc at opus0.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>James,
>Maybe a few other variables belong in the equation too, or pigeonholes in
>the dovecote, like: madman, pauper, convict, philosopher, masochist.
>
>c
>
>>  Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:16:55 EDT
>>  From: JforJames at aol.com
>>  Subject:
>>
>>  In a message dated 5/26/2005 4:19:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>>  clitophon at yahoo.com writes:
>>
>>  > think that de Sade's arguments are connected to the
>>  > arguments of politics and the place that he makes for
>>  > the guiltless individual who is not a psychopath but
>>  > who has decided to live without a rule book
>>
>>  de Sade = aristocratic erotics of exploitation
>>  Finnegan
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 11, Issue 44
>******************************************


-- 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon May 30 07:20:59 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:20:59 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Corner
Message-ID: <002e01c56509$ce834e70$a5d73152@ANNY>



Gianmario Lucini, poet and teacher signaled Fieralingue as the site of the month on Poiein of which he is webmaster and editor. Since long he has been featured on the Poets' Corner. Distant as a rule from the spotlights, I would like to underline that he is also the creator of the Premio Turoldo at its third edition in January 2005. I was asked to be present in the jury of the second edition and I can thus state that Gianmario Lucini, as the secretary behind the scenes is actually the supporting column of the poetry award.


I would also like to mention that the Poets' Corner was recognized by Jim Bennett, Managing Editor of the Poetry Kit, as a "recommended site".


My felt acknowledgements to all those who support our work.



      
      Gianmario Lucini, poeta e insegnante ha segnalato Fieralingue come sito del mese su Poiein di cui ? webmaster ed editore. 

      Da tempo ? ospite del Poets' Corner. Poco chino ai complimenti ed alle luci della fama, vorrei sottolineare che ? pure ideatore del Premio Turoldo alla sua terza edizione nel gennaio 2005. Mi fu chiesto di presenziare in giuria nella seconda edizione e posso quindi attestare che Gianmario Lucini, in qualit? di segretario dietro le quinte ? in effetti la colonna portante del premio di poesia. 

      Poets' Corner ha ricevuto da parte di Jim Bennett, Managing Editor del Poetry Kit, il riconoscimento di "recommended site (sito raccomandato)".
     


I miei ringraziamenti a tutti coloro che sostengono il nostro lavoro,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon May 30 09:54:27 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:54:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jarrell/Schwartz
In-Reply-To: <004b01c5621f$a40a8bf0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <20050526180849.62782.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>
	<004b01c5621f$a40a8bf0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1117461268.4800.22.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-05-26 at 14:20 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> I have an abiding anger against that generation of poets. I appreciate their 
> greatness, but I think they left an unfortunate legacy of a popular 
> conception of the poet as navel-gazing, suicidal neurotic.

My thoughts exactly.  "+1" in 'net terminology.  Back from Amsterdam
now, and I'm grateful for the inducement to jump back into the forum.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon May 30 10:50:41 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 09:50:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
Message-ID: <BEC09271.127A7%grahamd@ripon.edu>

AT THE UN-NATIONAL MONUMENT
ALONG THE CANADIAN BORDER

This is the field where the battle did not happen,
where the unknown soldier did not die.
This is the field where grass joined hands,
where no monument stands,
and the only heroic thing is the sky.

Birds fly here without any sound,
unfolding their wings across the open.
No people killed--or were killed--on this ground
hallowed by neglect and an air so tame
that people celebrate it by forgetting its name.

--William Stafford



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Mon May 30 10:48:47 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:48:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carruth and Winters
In-Reply-To: <003701c56446$6a3a6f70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <003701c56446$6a3a6f70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1117464526.429b27cf0071e@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

Mole!  Are you coming to NOrthampton to see Chris??  That would be a good thing!


Quoting The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org>:

> In Contemporary Authors, there's a great quote on Winters from Hayden
> Carruth, which says, in part, "Winters is able to prove -- demonstrate
> irrefutably with step-by-step-arguments and copious illustrations from line
> and stanza -- that our favorite poets were idiots, and in the process show
> just why we like them so much."
> 
> But they don't give a source. Does anyone know where Carruth wrote about
> Winters?
> 
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org





From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May 30 11:27:16 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:27:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
Message-ID: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>

Body Bags

 I

Let's hear it for Dwayne Coburn, who was small
And mean without a single saving grace
Except for stealing--home from second base
Or out of teammates' lockers, it was all 
The same to Dwayne. The Pep Club candy sale,
However, proved his downfall. He was held 
Briefly on various charges, then expelled
And given a choice: enlist or go to jail.

He finished basic and came home from Bragg
For Christmas on his reassignment leave
With one prize in his pack he though unique,
Which went off prematurely New Year's Eve.
The student body got the folded flag
And flew it in his memory for a week.

II

Good pulling guards were scarce in high school ball.
The ones who had the weight were usually slow
As lumber trucks. A scaled-down wild man, though,
Like Dennis "Wampus" Peterson, could haul
His ass around right end for me to slip
Behind his blocks. Played college ball a year--
Red-shirted when they yanked his scholarship
Because he majored, so he claimed, in Beer.

I saw him one last time. He'd added weight
Around the neck, used words like "grunt" and "slope,"
And said he'd swap his Harley and his dope
And both balls for a 4-F knee like mine.
This happened in the spring of '68.
He hanged himself in 1969.

III

Jay Swinney did a great Roy Orbison
Impersonation once at Lyn-Rock Park,
Lip-synching to "It's Over" in his dark
Glasses beside the jukebox. He was one
Who'd want no better for an epitaph
Than he was good with girls and charmed them by
Opening his billfold to a photograph:
Big brother. The Marine. Who didn't die.

He comes to mind, years from that summer night,
In class for no good reason while I talk
About Thoreau's remark that one injustice
Makes prisoners of us all. The piece of chalk
Splinters and flakes in fragments as I write,
To settle in the tray, where all the dust is.
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon May 30 12:22:11 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:22:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unhasty indeed
In-Reply-To: <BEBB65DB.12603%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEBB65DB.12603%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <1117470131.4800.89.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-05-26 at 11:39 -0500, David Graham wrote:
> Always happy to have an excuse to haul out my favorite quotation from
> Wendell Berry:
> 
> "One of the great practical uses of the literary disciplines, of course, is
> to resist glibness--to slow language down and make it thoughtful.  This
> accounts, particularly, for the influence of verse, in its formal aspect,
> within the dynamics of the growth of language:  verse checks the merely
> impulsive flow of speech, subjects it to another pulse, to measure, to
> extralinguistic consideration; by inducing the hesitations of difficulty, it
> admits into language the influence of the Muse and of musing."
> 
> --Wendell Berry, *Standing By Words*.

Thanks for the great quote.  It inspired an essay (currently at the top
of http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry ).  I've noticed that the
culture of this list is to post things in-line, rather than to restrict
oneself to links elsewhere.  I have to get used to this; it's contrary
to most mailing lists I belong to.  So here it is:

-- % --

Quot?di?

        One of the great practical uses of the literary disciplines, of
        course, is to resist glibness?to slow language down and make it
        thoughtful. This accounts, particularly, for the influence of
        verse, in its formal aspect, within the dynamics of the growth
        of language: verse checks the merely impulsive flow of speech,
        subjects it to another pulse, to measure, to extralinguistic
        consideration; by inducing the hesitations of difficulty, it
        admits into language the influence of the Muse and of musing.
        

?Wendell Berry?Standing By Words

via David Graham, on the New Poetry mailing list

No sooner have I returned from Amsterdam (more on all that later) than
juicy morsel falls straight in my lap for the neglected Quot?di?.
Wendell Berry is not the most interesting poet to me. I find him much
like our current Poet Laureate Ted Kooser?Intelligently stated, but with
nothing particularly compelling to offer for theme or diction. Not all
bucolics have to be as majestic, as, say Vergil's, but I think more of
our poets should look to (to give a parallel example) Horace for an
example of how to personalize bucolics while still keeping them
interesting.

But the quote is not from Berry's poetry, but from his prose, and it
compels me to seek out more of Berry's philosophical essays. Many
commentators have noted the role of poetry in presenting ideas in a form
that requires such care to digest that they become more clearly
communicated to the reader. This is so even if, paradoxically, obscurity
is one of these tools of clear communication. Obscurity slows things
down in the reader's apprehension in order not to lose the nuances. A
perfect antonym of poetry from this viewpoint is the sound bite, and I
think this comparison is also a good argument as to why poetry is as
important today as it has ever been.

Poetry for new media culture

The problem has always been how to make the reader accept the braking
effect of poetry on the digestion of information. I don't think it's
engaging in too much Luddite hand wringing to say that these days people
prefer their information in easily (and indeed trivially) digestible
form. This is in part a natural reaction to high volume ("information
overload" in the jargon). Most people, even among the trendiest of
techies, are quick to praise the resource that presents a topic in both
depth and breadth, and in coherent form. They find such treatment a
necessary check on the dissociating effects of the contemporary
knowledge feed?rapidly evolving blips of high sugar information. They
accept a slow-down of perception and carefully read such resources, but
only when advised by their peers to do so. They slow down because the
"buzz factor" has compelled them to do so.

Poetry serves the same end, and buzz can certainly be important for
leading people to poetry, but what really makes it compelling enough for
the reader to accept the slow-down in apprehension is concentrated
beauty of language. If the musical force of the words is strong enough,
the intelligent reader will be obliged to dig more deeply. The reader
will have gained a superficial aesthetic reward from the piece, in the
sound, and such a reward as they never receive from their more quotidian
resources. This reward is very satisfying, even if superficial, and it
promises of richer reward, in the matter, once one has taken the time to
consider the piece more carefully, most likely through multiple
readings, and discussion with peers. And with the best poetry, we learn
that the reward in the sound is not really superficial at all, but is
the key to better memory of the idea as well as greater enjoyment in its
presentation.

This is all well and good, of course, but the question is exactly where
will the mastery come from to work new media concerns into compelling
poetry? Is any such venture doomed by popular stereotype of poetry,
especially its association with the mid-20th century cadre of slovenly,
mentally unstable, kvetching pop art beatniks? From what I've heard and
read of Paglia's Break, Blow, Burn, she opens up a useful discussion
along these lines (yet another book on my really-should-read-soon list).
I must also say that the same discussion leads me to question whether
she has the critical acumen to help direct the class of potential poets
who can serve the world in this time of great need.

-- % --

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May 30 12:52:45 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:52:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Megalamemorial Day or as history dictates
	Megilah-Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <BEC09271.127A7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BEC09271.127A7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <429B44DD.5040301@ix.netcom.com>

 From Hugh Selwyn Mauberley

IV             

These fought, in any case,
and some believing, pro domo, in any case. . .

Some quick to arm,
some for adventure,
some from fear of weakness,
some from fear of censure,
some for love of slaughter, in imagination,
learning later...

some in fear, learning love of slaughter;
Died some, pro patria,
           non "dulce" non "et decor". . .

walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men's lies,then unbelieving
came home, home to a lie,
home to many deceits,
home to old lies and new infamy;

usury age-old and age-thick
and liars in public places.

Daring as never before, wastage as never before.
Young blood and high blood,
fair cheeks, and fine bodies;

fortitude as never before

frankness as never before,
disillusions as never told in the old days
hysterias, trench confessions
laughter out of dead bellies.


V <http://pisha.phm.vcu.edu/%7Eformica/ep_hsm.html#TOP>


There died a myriad,
And of the best, among them,
For an old bitch gone in the teeth,
For a botched civilization,

Charm, smiling at the good mouth,
quick eyes gone under earth's lid,

For two gross of broken statues,
For a few thousand battered books.






From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May 30 13:40:22 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:40:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Megalamemorial Day or as history dictates
	Megilah-Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <429B44DD.5040301@ix.netcom.com>
References: <BEC09271.127A7%grahamd@ripon.edu> <429B44DD.5040301@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <429B5006.5040809@ix.netcom.com>


      The Fish Cheer & I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die Rag

Well. I couldn't find David Jones' The Fatigue already typed up and 
ready to go on line. But for you younguns is contemplatin' a Save Uncle 
Slimy sign up here's everybody's old favorite whether you were smokin' 
your Thai Stick in Cu Chih or San Francisco.

Gimme an F!

        F!
        Gimme an I!
        I!
        Gimme an S!
        S!
        Gimme an H!
        H!
        What's that spell ?
        FISH!
        What's that spell ?
        FISH!
        What's that spell ?
        FISH!

        Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
        Uncle Sam needs your help again.
        He's got himself in a terrible jam
        Way down yonder in Vietnam
        So put down your books and pick up a gun,
        We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

        And it's one, two, three,
        What are we fighting for ?
        Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
        Next stop is Vietnam;
        And it's five, six, seven,
        Open up the pearly gates,
        Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
        Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

        Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
        Your big chance has come at last.
        Gotta go out and get those reds ?
        The only good commie is the one who's dead
        And you know that peace can only be won
        When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.

        And it's one, two, three,
        What are we fighting for ?
        Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
        Next stop is Vietnam;
        And it's five, six, seven,
        Open up the pearly gates,
        Well there ain't no time to wonder why
        Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

        Huh!

        Well, come on Wall Street, don't move slow,
        Why man, this is war au-go-go.
        There's plenty good money to be made
        By supplying the Army with the tools of the trade,
        Just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
        They drop it on the Viet Cong.

        And it's one, two, three,
        What are we fighting for ?
        Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
        Next stop is Vietnam.
        And it's five, six, seven,
        Open up the pearly gates,
        Well there ain't no time to wonder why
        Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

        Well, come on mothers throughout the land,
        Pack your boys off to Vietnam.
        Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
        Send 'em off before it's too late.
        Be the first one on your block
        To have your boy come home in a box.

        And it's one, two, three
        What are we fighting for ?
        Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
        Next stop is Vietnam.
        And it's five, six, seven,
        Open up the pearly gates,
        Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
        Whoopee! we're all gonna die.



Alphaville wrote:

> From Hugh Selwyn Mauberley
>
> IV
> These fought, in any case,
> and some believing, pro domo, in any case. . .
>
> Some quick to arm,
> some for adventure,
> some from fear of weakness,
> some from fear of censure,
> some for love of slaughter, in imagination,
> learning later...
>
> some in fear, learning love of slaughter;
> Died some, pro patria,
> non "dulce" non "et decor". . .
>
> walked eye-deep in hell
> believing in old men's lies,then unbelieving
> came home, home to a lie,
> home to many deceits,
> home to old lies and new infamy;
>
> usury age-old and age-thick
> and liars in public places.
>
> Daring as never before, wastage as never before.
> Young blood and high blood,
> fair cheeks, and fine bodies;
>
> fortitude as never before
>
> frankness as never before,
> disillusions as never told in the old days
> hysterias, trench confessions
> laughter out of dead bellies.
>
>
> V <http://pisha.phm.vcu.edu/%7Eformica/ep_hsm.html#TOP>
>
>
> There died a myriad,
> And of the best, among them,
> For an old bitch gone in the teeth,
> For a botched civilization,
>
> Charm, smiling at the good mouth,
> quick eyes gone under earth's lid,
>
> For two gross of broken statues,
> For a few thousand battered books.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May 30 13:50:24 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:50:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Megalamemorial Day or as history dictates
	Megilah-Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <429B5006.5040809@ix.netcom.com>
References: <BEC09271.127A7%grahamd@ripon.edu> <429B44DD.5040301@ix.netcom.com>
	<429B5006.5040809@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <429B5260.5060400@ix.netcom.com>

Sorry about the misspellings in email before. But God bless the CIA. 
That's why Washington always has the best dope even after Congress and K 
Street have pigged out.

Alphaville wrote:

>
>      The Fish Cheer & I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die Rag
>
> Well. I couldn't find David Jones' The Fatigue already typed up and 
> ready to go on line. But for you younguns is contemplatin' a Save 
> Uncle Slimy sign up here's everybody's old favorite whether you were 
> smokin' your Thai Stick in Cu Chih or San Francisco.
>
> Gimme an F!
>
>        F!
>        Gimme an I!
>        I!
>        Gimme an S!
>        S!
>        Gimme an H!
>        H!
>        What's that spell ?
>        FISH!
>        What's that spell ?
>        FISH!
>        What's that spell ?
>        FISH!
>
>        Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
>        Uncle Sam needs your help again.
>        He's got himself in a terrible jam
>        Way down yonder in Vietnam
>        So put down your books and pick up a gun,
>        We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.
>
>        And it's one, two, three,
>        What are we fighting for ?
>        Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
>        Next stop is Vietnam;
>        And it's five, six, seven,
>        Open up the pearly gates,
>        Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
>        Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
>
>        Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
>        Your big chance has come at last.
>        Gotta go out and get those reds ?
>        The only good commie is the one who's dead
>        And you know that peace can only be won
>        When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.
>
>        And it's one, two, three,
>        What are we fighting for ?
>        Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
>        Next stop is Vietnam;
>        And it's five, six, seven,
>        Open up the pearly gates,
>        Well there ain't no time to wonder why
>        Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
>
>        Huh!
>
>        Well, come on Wall Street, don't move slow,
>        Why man, this is war au-go-go.
>        There's plenty good money to be made
>        By supplying the Army with the tools of the trade,
>        Just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
>        They drop it on the Viet Cong.
>
>        And it's one, two, three,
>        What are we fighting for ?
>        Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
>        Next stop is Vietnam.
>        And it's five, six, seven,
>        Open up the pearly gates,
>        Well there ain't no time to wonder why
>        Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
>
>        Well, come on mothers throughout the land,
>        Pack your boys off to Vietnam.
>        Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
>        Send 'em off before it's too late.
>        Be the first one on your block
>        To have your boy come home in a box.
>
>        And it's one, two, three
>        What are we fighting for ?
>        Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
>        Next stop is Vietnam.
>        And it's five, six, seven,
>        Open up the pearly gates,
>        Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
>        Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
>
>
>
> Alphaville wrote:
>
>> From Hugh Selwyn Mauberley
>>
>> IV
>> These fought, in any case,
>> and some believing, pro domo, in any case. . .
>>
>> Some quick to arm,
>> some for adventure,
>> some from fear of weakness,
>> some from fear of censure,
>> some for love of slaughter, in imagination,
>> learning later...
>>
>> some in fear, learning love of slaughter;
>> Died some, pro patria,
>> non "dulce" non "et decor". . .
>>
>> walked eye-deep in hell
>> believing in old men's lies,then unbelieving
>> came home, home to a lie,
>> home to many deceits,
>> home to old lies and new infamy;
>>
>> usury age-old and age-thick
>> and liars in public places.
>>
>> Daring as never before, wastage as never before.
>> Young blood and high blood,
>> fair cheeks, and fine bodies;
>>
>> fortitude as never before
>>
>> frankness as never before,
>> disillusions as never told in the old days
>> hysterias, trench confessions
>> laughter out of dead bellies.
>>
>>
>> V <http://pisha.phm.vcu.edu/%7Eformica/ep_hsm.html#TOP>
>>
>>
>> There died a myriad,
>> And of the best, among them,
>> For an old bitch gone in the teeth,
>> For a botched civilization,
>>
>> Charm, smiling at the good mouth,
>> quick eyes gone under earth's lid,
>>
>> For two gross of broken statues,
>> For a few thousand battered books.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Mon May 30 14:58:09 2005
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:58:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day: RSGwynn1 - Body Bags
Message-ID: <200505301900.j4UJ02Aa022342@d01av02.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:00:13 -0400 *************
Sam you didn't say - or else I missed a previous post, but I'll bet
a buck to a donut that it's your poem.

Helluva' good poem.

Richard


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May 30 15:00:53 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:00:53 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
References: <200505241616.j4OGGJHW118824@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <012601c56549$e8bbb1c0$e89c9951@Robin>

From: "Chris Stroffolino " <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob


> Yes on both those lyrics....
>
> Anybody read that rather silly Christopher Ricks book---
> some good readings at times (especially of "BLIND WILLIE McTELL" from this
> some period) but hundreds of pages of dross and silliness to wade
> through....
>        still I'm glad he did it....
>
> Chris

Back, and I might have missed something on this thread, but the Blind Willie
McTell homage that Bob Dylan sang is actually quite difficult to get.

Blind Willie sang "The Dying Crapshooter's Blues", and that's a story and a
half.

I presume everyone knows about this, so I won't recap.

A Returned Dormouse.





From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May 30 15:01:47 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:01:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day: RSGwynn1 - Body Bags
Message-ID: <1f3.ac26cce.2fccbd1b@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/30/2005 2:00:47 PM Central Daylight Time, 
DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com writes: 
> Sam you didn't say - or else I missed a previous post, but I'll bet
> a buck to a donut that it's your poem.
> 
> Helluva' good poem.
> 
> Richard
> ________________
Thank you.  It seemed appropriate for Memorial Day.
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From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Mon May 30 16:48:20 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:48:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] memorial day
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2AF5@mail.emerson.edu>

Reading Bloom's book on Hamlet today and finding the following (p.141): "Historians . . . are likely to see the destruction of the World Trade Center as the overt beginning of what could turn out to be a hundred years' war between extremist Islamism and the West."

Then hearing Prez Bush on the radio extolling the sacrifices, the blood. . .

Can't remember the Jeffers line about protest being a bubble that bursts ineffectually and pathetically. . .

my bubble for today:

MEMORIAL GARDEN, NATIONAL MILITARY CEMETERY, 
   ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA, U.S.A.

Where every rose
blows more bellicose
than the killer heroes

below: the pinks all bleed
on parade; each hybrid
seed dreams of omnicide.

In bouquet-beds they love
like bayonets to shove
their thorns through the air.  Above

these barbarous bushes
the most vicious
flower that ever grew

swishes?
the Red White and Blue.

Note: 
I ask any translators of the above to replace "Arlington . . ." with 
their own country's national military cemetery, and to use
the colors of its flag instead of  "Red White and Blue."






From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon May 30 17:27:01 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:27:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Robinson Jeffers
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2AF5@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2AF5@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05053014276404642@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the poem you refer to. I love the line about America's "mould of 
vulgarity." Paris Hilton, MTV, Nanny 911 . . . I could go on. But Jeffers 
sums it all quite well, I believe:
 Shine, Perishing Republic
Robinson Jeffers
 While this America settles in the mould of its vulgarity, heavily 
thickening
to empire,
And protest, only a bubble in the molten mass, pops and sighs out, and the
mass hardens,
I sadly smiling remember that the flower fades to make fruit, the fruit rots
to make earth.
Out of the mother; and through the spring exultances, ripeness and 
decadence;
and home to the mother.

You making haste, haste on decay: not blameworthy; life is good, be it
stubbornly long or suddenly
A mortal splendor: meteors are not needed less than mountains:
shine, perishing republic.
But for my children, I would have them keep their distance from the
thickening center; corruption
Never has been compulsory, when the cities lie at the monster's feet there
are left the mountains.

And boys, be in nothing so moderate as in love of man, a clever servant,
insufferable master.
There is the trap that catches noblest spirits, that caught -- they say --
God, when he walked on earth.


   On 5/30/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote:

> Reading Bloom's book on Hamlet today and finding the following (p.141): 
> "Historians . . . are likely to see the destruction of the World Trade 
> Center as the overt beginning of what could turn out to be a hundred years' 
> war between extremist Islamism and the West."
> 
> Then hearing Prez Bush on the radio extolling the sacrifices, the blood. . 
> .
> 
> Can't remember the Jeffers line about protest being a bubble that bursts 
> ineffectually and pathetically. . .
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz
> 
> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon May 30 19:31:49 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:31:49 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
Message-ID: <200505302209.j4UM7bIL128554@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

His song "blind willie mctell" isn't that hard too get now--
It's officially released on the "official" bootleg series that came out
circa 93.

Or are you referring to another...
Did Dylan cover the dying crapshooter's blues?

C

----------
>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
>Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 11:00 AM
>

>
> Back, and I might have missed something on this thread, but the Blind Willie
> McTell homage that Bob Dylan sang is actually quite difficult to get.
>
> Blind Willie sang "The Dying Crapshooter's Blues", and that's a story and a
> half.
>
> I presume everyone knows about this, so I won't recap.
>
> A Returned Dormouse.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May 30 18:08:44 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:08:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>
Message-ID: <429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com>

I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons 
perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too say I 
have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry lacks the 
kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking 
around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks 
about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally known 
as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."

And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My 
first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is 
the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I 
suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.

Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his 
friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in 
the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn 
there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead 
kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why 
bother to write about them?

On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany 
of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great 
War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short, 
Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to 
Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as they are 
to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of 
Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think it is 
about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing. Its truth 
through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound 
and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its 
been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.

This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry. 
In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the 
formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An 
expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in the 
poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks ago.  
"[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely 
propagated for reasons of control many years ago.  The power of the 
Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari' 
sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations and 
thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.

Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short 
formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put 
it in the fridge. Pull it out  a few days days later, pop the cap and 
see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it might be 
something you want to commit to memory to impress the opposite/same sex. 
However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do 
retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that 
eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays with you 
all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP




Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> Body Bags
>
> I
>
> Let's hear it for Dwayne Coburn, who was small
> And mean without a single saving grace
> Except for stealing--home from second base
> Or out of teammates' lockers, it was all
> The same to Dwayne. The Pep Club candy sale,
> However, proved his downfall. He was held
> Briefly on various charges, then expelled
> And given a choice: enlist or go to jail.
>
> He finished basic and came home from Bragg
> For Christmas on his reassignment leave
> With one prize in his pack he though unique,
> Which went off prematurely New Year's Eve.
> The student body got the folded flag
> And flew it in his memory for a week.
>
> II
>
> Good pulling guards were scarce in high school ball.
> The ones who had the weight were usually slow
> As lumber trucks. A scaled-down wild man, though,
> Like Dennis "Wampus" Peterson, could haul
> His ass around right end for me to slip
> Behind his blocks. Played college ball a year--
> Red-shirted when they yanked his scholarship
> Because he majored, so he claimed, in Beer.
>
> I saw him one last time. He'd added weight
> Around the neck, used words like "grunt" and "slope,"
> And said he'd swap his Harley and his dope
> And both balls for a 4-F knee like mine.
> This happened in the spring of '68.
> He hanged himself in 1969.
>
> III
>
> Jay Swinney did a great Roy Orbison
> Impersonation once at Lyn-Rock Park,
> Lip-synching to "It's Over" in his dark
> Glasses beside the jukebox. He was one
> Who'd want no better for an epitaph
> Than he was good with girls and charmed them by
> Opening his billfold to a photograph:
> Big brother. The Marine. Who didn't die.
>
> He comes to mind, years from that summer night,
> In class for no good reason while I talk
> About Thoreau's remark that one injustice
> Makes prisoners of us all. The piece of chalk
> Splinters and flakes in fragments as I write,
> To settle in the tray, where all the dust is.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May 30 18:32:44 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:32:44 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob
References: <200505302209.j4UM7bIL128554@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <02f001c56567$80401f50$e89c9951@Robin>

From: "Chris Stroffolino " <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob


> His song "blind willie mctell" isn't that hard too get now--
> It's officially released on the "official" bootleg series that came out
> circa 93.

The three CD Bootleg series was where I came on it -- but is it anywhere
else?

> Or are you referring to another...

        Nah, that's it.

> Did Dylan cover the dying crapshooter's blues?

                Different issue.

Dylan didn't do a cover (as far as I know) for the Dying Crapshooter.

        ... but there are lots of people who know more than me on this.

Me, I'm dumb-bunny, and all I have going is I can track-back Laredo to
Dublin in the 1790s.

        Not that anyone much seems to care.

                    :-(

        Sad that, but.

One whose friends and relations lived in the Nation.

                    Not.

        The Stone Dormouse.





From JforJames at aol.com  Mon May 30 19:00:57 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:00:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
Message-ID: <e6.6acbb79f.2fccf529@aol.com>

Airshow

The bright fury of it all,
those titanium-alloy wings
tearing away great sections of the sky.
The sun itself astonished. The screaming
drone of engines opened up all the way,
exhaust trailing off, dissipating,
a fine bone-white ash floating down
along the surface of the river.
Again the pitiless metal at full thrust,
coming in low from behind the bluffs
in a strafing run over the crowd.
We gave up our necks, heads tilted skyward,
squinting in the glare. We clapped and children
squealed and held their ears
as the fighterjets wheeled about and came around
one last time. The earth shuddered
under our feet and all the flags
loosed in the wind.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon May 30 19:35:13 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:35:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
Message-ID: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons 
> perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too say I 
> have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry lacks the 
> kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking 
> around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks 
> about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally known 
> as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
> 
> And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My 
> first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is 
> the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I 
> suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.
> 
> Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his 
> friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in 
> the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn 
> there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead 
> kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why 
> bother to write about them?
> 
> On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany 
> of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great 
> War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short, 
> Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to 
> Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as they are 
> to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of 
> Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think it is 
> about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing. Its truth 
> through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound 
> and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its 
> been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.
> 
> This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry. 
> In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the 
> formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An 
> expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in the 
> poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks ago.  
> "[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely 
> propagated for reasons of control many years ago.  The power of the 
> Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari' 
> sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations and 
> thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
> 
> Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short 
> formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put 
> it in the fridge. Pull it out  a few days days later, pop the cap and 
> see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it might be 
> something you want to commit to memory to impress the opposite/same sex. 
> However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do 
> retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that 
> eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays with you 
> all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP

Whatever.
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From tad at opus40.org  Mon May 30 19:54:38 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:54:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
Message-ID: <005401c56572$f2f6e0f0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 7:35 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day


  In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time, alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 





    X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
    I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons 
    perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too say I 
    have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry lacks the 
    kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking 
    around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks 
    about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally known 
    as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."

    And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My 
    first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is 
    the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I 
    suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.

    Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his 
    friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in 
    the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn 
    there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead 
    kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why 
    bother to write about them?

    On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany 
    of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great 
    War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short, 
    Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to 
    Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as they are 
    to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of 
    Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think it is 
    about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing. Its truth 
    through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound 
    and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its 
    been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.

    This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry. 
    In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the 
    formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An 
    expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in the 
    poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks ago.  
    "[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely 
    propagated for reasons of control many years ago.  The power of the 
    Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari' 
    sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations and 
    thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.

    Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short 
    formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put 
    it in the fridge. Pull it out  a few days days later, pop the cap and 
    see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it might be 
    something you want to commit to memory to impress the opposite/same sex. 
    However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do 
    retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that 
    eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays with you 
    all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP


  Whatever. 



I guess no check.






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon May 30 20:11:22 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:11:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>

Yes. CP is right. Everyone else on the planet is wrong.
 Jeff Newberry

 On 5/30/05, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote: 
> 
> In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons 
> perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too say I 
> have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry lacks the 
> kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking 
> around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks 
> about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally known 
> as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
> 
> And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My 
> first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is 
> the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I 
> suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.
> 
> Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his 
> friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in 
> the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn 
> there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead 
> kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why 
> bother to write about them?
> 
> On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany 
> of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great 
> War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short, 
> Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to 
> Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as they are 
> to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of 
> Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think it is 
> about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing. Its truth 
> through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound 
> and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its 
> been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.
> 
> This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry. 
> In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the 
> formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An 
> expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in the 
> poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks ago. 
> "[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely 
> propagated for reasons of control many years ago. The power of the 
> Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari' 
> sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations and 
> thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
> 
> Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short 
> formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put 
> it in the fridge. Pull it out a few days days later, pop the cap and 
> see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it might be 
> something you want to commit to memory to impress the opposite/same sex. 
> However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do 
> retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that 
> eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays with you 
> all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever. 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
>
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon May 30 21:09:34 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:09:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a050530180941d51b52@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/30/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> Yes. CP is right. Everyone else on the planet is wrong.
>  Jeff Newberry
> 
 CP (and others),
 Let me first apologize for this comment. It's childish and dismissive, both 
things I generally try to avoid.

 Let me be responsible and offer a more reasoned critique of CP's post re 
"Body Bags."

 CP wrote:

 And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My 
first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is 
the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I 
suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.

 I respond:

 Big Greek words for "prior" aside, I argue that passion in "Body Bags" 
stems from its subject matter. The poem offers portaits of boys who went on 
to be killed for no real reason. A memory piece, the poem allows the speaker 
three small moments of reflection on lives that never were lead. Where is 
this lack of passion? The matter-of-factness is its strength. Talk to those 
who've lost friends or family (and not only war); grief and memory are 
matter-of-fact. The sobering reality of death calls for something "common 
place." People die daily, and high rhetoric won't bring them back. 
Additionally, I'm not certain where you get the idea that the poem has an 
"intent." What intent? On the other hand, the Pound poem that you offer and 
defend depends on intent for its message.

 CP wrote:

 On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany 
of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great 
War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short, 
Pound really cares.

 Well, yes. Pound is angry. But the speaker's anger is just that: anger. It 
generates no response in this reader. When I read these sections of "Hugh 
Selwyn Mauberly," I see a poet angry (rightfully) at the slaughter and 
destruction of war. I see a poet who (rightly again) cries out against the 
brutality and slaughter of senseless war. However, I also see, above 
everything else, an agenda. Pound wants us to agree with Pound. Pound may 
really care, but if we are to care, as well, then we need to adopt all of 
his worldviews and baggage. In "Body Bags," however, Gwynn offers not agenda 
and not political stance, but portraits of lives. These boys are people that 
everyone knows; they don't represent anything. They're simple people who 
became victims to a war that never should have been fought. They're victims 
of a world that allows such tragedy. In the end, Gwynn leaves us with a 
poignant reminder that no matter the case, everyone dies (the chalk dust in 
the final line): ashes to ashes, you know. Is this profound? Well, in the 
context of the character's lives, I say yes?because the character's lives 
matter. Is caring about someone's life sentimental? If you're using 
"sentimental" pejoratively, then I disagree. Great poetry isn't about 
itself. Great poetry is about human experience; and in this observation, I 
may have found our major disagreement over "Body Bags."

Yes, "Body Bags" is a sonnet. And yes, sonnets do have an inherent argument 
structure (I may be wrong here). But, ultimately, "Body Bags" succeeds as a 
poem, form aside. The tiny portraits of the boys remind me of E.A. Robinson, 
a poet who used formal possibilities to explore thematic elements. Like 
Robinson, Gwynn uses the form thematically. Each of the boys is conscripted 
in one way or another into military service, and thus become prisoners to a 
system, not unlike the words in the sonnet structure. Additionally, I 
believe that sonnets were originally love poems(?); and the portraits in 
each section of "Body Bags" demonstrate and imply a kind of mourning common 
in love poetry for each of the departed boys. However, in this poem, the 
boys can never come back.
Let me end by saying that I don't think that "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly" is a 
weak poem. Rather, I think that it's possibly flawed by its overt anger and 
over message?it's nearly didactic. I don't think Pound a poor poet, for the 
most part. I do, however, think that he let his personal agenda get in the 
way of his art, at least in this case.
Let me apologize again for my first response. It was undignified and 
uncalled for.
Yours,
Jeff Newberry


On 5/30/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> Yes. CP is right. Everyone else on the planet is wrong.
>  Jeff Newberry
> 
>  On 5/30/05, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote: 
> 
> > In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> > alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> > I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons 
> > perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too say I 
> > have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry lacks the 
> > kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking 
> > around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks 
> > about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally known 
> > as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
> > 
> > And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My 
> > first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is 
> > the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I 
> > suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about 
> > death. 
> > 
> > Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his 
> > friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in 
> > the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn 
> > there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead 
> > kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why 
> > bother to write about them?
> > 
> > On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany 
> > of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great 
> > War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short, 
> > Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to 
> > Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as they are 
> > 
> > to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of 
> > Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think it is 
> > about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing. Its truth 
> > 
> > through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound 
> > and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its 
> > been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.
> > 
> > This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry. 
> > In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the 
> > 
> > formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An 
> > expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in the 
> > poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks ago. 
> > "[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely 
> > propagated for reasons of control many years ago. The power of the 
> > Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari' 
> > sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations and 
> > thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
> > 
> > Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short 
> > formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put 
> > 
> > it in the fridge. Pull it out a few days days later, pop the cap and 
> > see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it might be 
> > something you want to commit to memory to impress the opposite/same sex. 
> > 
> > However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do 
> > retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that 
> > eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays with you 
> > all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Whatever. 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon May 30 21:22:24 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:22:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob/Blind Willie
In-Reply-To: <02f001c56567$80401f50$e89c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <BEC12680.12804%grahamd@ripon.edu>

>> His song "blind willie mctell" isn't that hard too get now--
>> It's officially released on the "official" bootleg series that came out
>> circa 93.
> 
> The three CD Bootleg series was where I came on it -- but is it anywhere
> else?


>From All Music Guide:

Song Review    by Thomas Ward

One of Bob Dylan's absolute masterpieces, "Blind Willie McTell" is the jewel
of The Bootleg Series and arguably one of the finest songs ever written.
Recorded in 1983 for the album Infidels, it was deemed superfluous to
requirements, and all that remains is one take of the song with a full band
(yet to be officially released) and this haunting demo, with Dylan playing
piano with accompaniment from Mark Knopfler. The song, while alluding to
many blues songs and spirituals, essentially tracks the history of America
backwards, with Dylan ruminating at the end of each verse, "I know no one
can sing the blues like Blind Willie McTell." The poetry of the song lyrics
is quite staggering; the song opens with the exquisite "Seen the arrow on
the doorpost/Saying this land is condemned/All the way from New Orleans/to
Jerusalem/I traveled through East Texas/Where many martyrs fell/And I know
no one can sing the blues like Blind Willie McTell." Writing in popular
music has rarely been so poetic or evocative. Further on in the song, Dylan
alludes to "slavery ships" and "plantations burning," phrases you might
associate with a particularly literate Mississippi John Hurt or, indeed,
Blind Willie McTell himself. Indeed, after quoting the song's lyrics, the
critic Michael Gray could only gasp "What a song!" before deconstructing its
influences, which in structure can be traced to many songs authored by Blind
Willie McTell. The performance is at times heartbreaking, at times strong
with defiance. Dylan's rudimentary piano work is simply magnificent, and the
melody, derived from the blues standard "St. James Infirmary," is
impeccable. Without question one of the finest songs Dylan has ever written,
it has, quite rightly, scarcely been touched by other artists. Only the Band
has performed a successful version of it, albeit a reverential one. Dylan
has often performed the song live on his Never Ending Tour, yet the power
and poise of the original demo performance have never come within a mile of
being equalled. 
on 5/30/05 5:32 PM, Robin Hamilton at robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com wrote:



> 
> Not that anyone much seems to care.
> 
> :-(
> 


Au contraire. (See above)

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From Thom424 at aol.com  Mon May 30 22:17:50 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 22:17:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob/Blind Willie
Message-ID: <2b.742a16ac.2fcd234e@aol.com>

from the review essay "tangled up in bob" by david yaffe in *the nation* 
april 25, 2005, reviewing, among other books about dylan, cristopher ricks' 
*dylan's vision of sin*.



The section on Dylan's 1983 song "Blind Willie McTell" is as revealing an 
example as any of how Ricks can get lost in the minutiae of dictionaries and 
literary and biblical concordances while losing track of what the song is actually 
about. He discusses William Tell's arrow (since the first line of the song 
contains the word "arrow"), makes many references to the Psalms (not a bad 
hunch, since Dylan was still on the tail end of his fire and brimstone mode) and 
many asides to let you know that the Warren Professor of Humanities at Boston 
University and this year's choice for Oxford Professor of Poetry is aware of 
Homer's and Milton's blindness. "William Tell's arrow hit the apple on the head 
of the apple of his eye, his son. Since Mc means 'son of,' the son of William 
Tell may be living in another country under another name: William, or Willie, 
McTell."

Over twenty pages of precious wordplay and meta-Dylan references (to "Gotta 
Serve Somebody"), Ricks does not even mention that Dylan was not merely 
summoning up William Tell or adding the "Mc" for any fancy reason, but that McTell 
was an actual blues musician and the song's true subject. Blind Willie McTell 
was not blind because of Milton but because he was blind from birth. And the 
McTell of the song was so named not because of William Tell but, according to 
legend, because a teacher at a school for the blind had mistakenly changed it 
from "McTear." Music and history don't exist for Ricks's own metaphorical 
convenience.
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May 30 22:20:11 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 03:20:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob/Blind Willie
References: <BEC12680.12804%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <007e01c56587$46d28800$e89c9951@Robin>

From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> [quoting]:

> melody, derived from the blues standard "St. James Infirmary," is

Actually, this is the kicker.

The post-1790s "Rake's Lament" did a three way split when it crossed the
Pond.

The main line is "The Streets of Laredo"/"The Cowboy's Lament".

Cowboy folk, and god knows how many versions of *that* there are.  Leave
aside parodies and imitations.

The jazz [NOT blues] version was I think first done by Cab Calloway, and
then by Satchmo.

That was called "St James Infirmary", and the title goes back to a syph
hospital in 19thC London.

(There were other hospitals, but St James Infirmary was the only one that
seems to have crossed the Pond as a title.)

As far as I know, Blind Willie McTell (and there are several versions of the
song he sang and various stories behind it) was the first to do it as blues.

... except there are bits of Blind Willie's blues version ("The Dying
Crapshooter's Blues") that track back to details in the 1790s Cork/Dublin
fragments.

It's an absolute bloody (fascinating) mess, and I can't make the least sense
of it, other than that in the US of A there are three distinct *strands* -- 
folk, jazz, and blues.

    {Well, I think I have my head around what happens *before* it crosses
the Pond, but that's fairly -- ha! --straightforward.}

Dylan's homage to Blind Willie doesn't seem to pick-up on this at all, so
all this is possibly stunningly irrelevant.

The latest seems to be Emmy Lou Harris in a song in +Red Dirt Girl+ (about
her father in the airforce in the Great Patriotic War), so the cowboy thread
is still alive and kicking.

I wish someone would uncrumple this much-crumpled thing -- frankly, it's
beyond me.

Robin




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon May 30 23:43:15 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:43:15 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob/Blind Willie
Message-ID: <200505310220.j4V2IcPC131182@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

THOM! Exactly!
          And frankly the Wilie McTell chapter is one of the BETTER chapters
in that book;
             the others get even more out of control....

C

----------
From: Thom424 at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob/Blind Willie
Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 6:17 PM


from the review essay "tangled up in bob" by david yaffe in *the nation*
april 25, 2005, reviewing, among other books about dylan, cristopher ricks'
*dylan's vision of sin*.



The section on Dylan's 1983 song "Blind Willie McTell" is as revealing an
example as any of how Ricks can get lost in the minutiae of dictionaries and
literary and biblical concordances while losing track of what the song is
actually about. He discusses William Tell's arrow (since the first line of
the song contains the word "arrow"), makes many references to the Psalms
(not a bad hunch, since Dylan was still on the tail end of his fire and
brimstone mode) and many asides to let you know that the Warren Professor of
Humanities at Boston University and this year's choice for Oxford Professor
of Poetry is aware of Homer's and Milton's blindness. "William Tell's arrow
hit the apple on the head of the apple of his eye, his son. Since Mc means
'son of,' the son of William Tell may be living in another country under
another name: William, or Willie, McTell."

Over twenty pages of precious wordplay and meta-Dylan references (to "Gotta
Serve Somebody"), Ricks does not even mention that Dylan was not merely
summoning up William Tell or adding the "Mc" for any fancy reason, but that
McTell was an actual blues musician and the song's true subject. Blind
Willie McTell was not blind because of Milton but because he was blind from
birth. And the McTell of the song was so named not because of William Tell
but, according to legend, because a teacher at a school for the blind had
mistakenly changed it from "McTear." Music and history don't exist for
Ricks's own metaphorical convenience.
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May 30 23:01:39 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:01:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <429BD393.4070600@ix.netcom.com>

<Yes.  CP is right.  Everyone else on the planet is wrong.>

And how could any such thing be inferred from my remraks? CP
 


Jeff Newberry wrote:

> Yes.  CP is right.  Everyone else on the planet is wrong.
>  
> Jeff Newberry
>
>  
> On 5/30/05, *Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <mailto:Rsgwynn1 at cs.com>* 
> <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <mailto:Rsgwynn1 at cs.com>> wrote:
>
>     In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
>     alphavil at ix.netcom.com <mailto:alphavil at ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>>     I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons
>>     perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too
>>     say I
>>     have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry
>>     lacks the
>>     kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking
>>     around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks
>>     about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally
>>     known
>>     as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
>>
>>     And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My
>>     first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness.
>>     This is
>>     the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori
>>     intent, I
>>     suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace
>>     about death.
>>
>>     Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his
>>     friends during World War I specifically the sculptor
>>     Gaudier-Brzeska in
>>     the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn
>>     there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead
>>     kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why
>>     bother to write about them?
>>
>>     On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole
>>     litany
>>     of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The
>>     Great
>>     War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short,
>>     Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to
>>     Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as
>>     they are
>>     to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of
>>     Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think
>>     it is
>>     about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing.
>>     Its truth
>>     through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about
>>     Pound
>>     and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous
>>     its
>>     been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing
>>     sentiments.
>>
>>     This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist
>>     poetry.
>>     In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply
>>     from the
>>     formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An
>>     expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in
>>     the
>>     poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks
>>     ago. 
>>     "[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely
>>     propagated for reasons of control many years ago.  The power of the
>>     Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari'
>>     sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations
>>     and
>>     thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
>>
>>     Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short
>>     formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time.
>>     Then put
>>     it in the fridge. Pull it out  a few days days later, pop the cap
>>     and
>>     see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it
>>     might be
>>     something you want to commit to memory to impress the
>>     opposite/same sex.
>>     However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do
>>     retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that
>>     eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays
>>     with you
>>     all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP
>
>
>
>     Whatever.
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May 30 23:25:29 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:25:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050530180941d51b52@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a050530180941d51b52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <429BD929.2010002@ix.netcom.com>

<People die daily, and high rhetoric won't bring them back.>

Nor will commonplaces. "Bringing them back" was not Pound's intent any 
more than Gwynn's.

<Where is this lack of passion?  The matter-of-factness is its strength.>

I anticipated the latter comment in my remarks. As for "Where is the 
lack of passion"---why in its "matter of factness." I think Gwynn would 
not agree with the matter of factness, which almost implies glibness, 
being his intent.

<Big Greek words for "prior" aside, I argue that passion in "Body Bags" 
stems from its subject matter.  The poem offers portaits of boys who 
went on to be killed for no real reason.  A memory piece, the poem 
allows the speaker three small moments of reflection on lives that never 
were lead.>

I think we all 'get' the poem. And apriori is not a "big Greek word" too 
many but if you insist I dumb it down I will.

<Well, yes. Pound is angry... et al.> is Et al too Big? Too Latin?

I respect your limitations in the following remarks on Pound .

<In "Body Bags," however, Gwynn offers not agenda and not political 
stance, but portraits of lives.  These boys are people that everyone 
knows; they don't represent anything.   They're simple people who became 
victims to a war that never should have been fought.  They're victims of 
a world that allows such tragedy.   In the end, Gwynn leaves us with a 
poignant reminder that no matter the case, everyone dies (the chalk dust 
in the final line):  ashes to ashes, you know.   Is this profound?  
Well, in the context of the character's lives, I say yes?because the 
character's lives matter.  Is caring about someone's life sentimental?   
If you're using "sentimental" pejoratively, then I disagree.  Great 
poetry isn't about itself.  Great poetry is about human experience; and 
in this observation, I may have found our major disagreement over "Body 
Bags.">

I agree. Your remarks above validate what I wrote.

<I don't think Pound a poor poet,...>

You stand in good compnay even if you stand at the rear.

CP





Jeff Newberry wrote:

> On 5/30/05, *Jeff Newberry* < jeff.newberry at gmail.com 
> <mailto:jeff.newberry at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Yes.  CP is right.  Everyone else on the planet is wrong.
>      
>     Jeff Newberry
>      
>
>  
> CP (and others),
>  
> Let me first apologize for this comment.  It's childish and 
> dismissive, both things I generally try to avoid.
>
>  
>
> Let me be responsible and offer a more reasoned critique of CP's post 
> re "Body Bags."
>
>  
>
> CP wrote:
>
>  
>
>     And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My
>     first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness.
>     This is
>     the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori
>     intent, I
>     suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about
>     death.
>
>  
>
> I respond:
>
>  
>
> Big Greek words for "prior" aside, I argue that passion in "Body Bags" 
> stems from its subject matter.  The poem offers portaits of boys who 
> went on to be killed for no real reason.  A memory piece, the poem 
> allows the speaker three small moments of reflection on lives that 
> never were lead.  Where is this lack of passion?  The 
> matter-of-factness is its strength.  Talk to those who've lost friends 
> or family (and not only war); grief and memory are matter-of-fact.  
> The sobering reality of death calls for something "common place."  
> People die daily, and high rhetoric won't bring them back.  
> Additionally, I'm not certain where you get the idea that the poem has 
> an "intent."  What intent?  On the other hand, the Pound poem that you 
> offer and defend depends on intent for its message.
>
>  
>
> CP wrote:
>
>  
>
>     On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole
>     litany
>     of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The
>     Great
>     War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short,
>     Pound really cares.
>
>  
>
> Well, yes. Pound is angry.  But the speaker's anger is just that:  
> anger.   It generates no response in this reader.  When I read these 
> sections of "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly," I see a poet angry (rightfully) at 
> the slaughter and destruction of war.   I see a poet who (rightly 
> again) cries out against the brutality and slaughter of senseless 
> war.  However, I also see, above everything else, an agenda.   Pound 
> wants us to agree with Pound.  Pound may really care, but if we are to 
> care, as well, then we need to adopt all of his worldviews and 
> baggage.   In "Body Bags," however, Gwynn offers not agenda and not 
> political stance, but portraits of lives.  These boys are people that 
> everyone knows; they don't represent anything.   They're simple people 
> who became victims to a war that never should have been fought.  
> They're victims of a world that allows such tragedy.   In the end, 
> Gwynn leaves us with a poignant reminder that no matter the case, 
> everyone dies (the chalk dust in the final line):  ashes to ashes, you 
> know.   Is this profound?  Well, in the context of the character's 
> lives, I say yes?because the character's lives matter.  Is caring 
> about someone's life sentimental?   If you're using "sentimental" 
> pejoratively, then I disagree.  Great poetry isn't about itself.  
> Great poetry is about human experience; and in this observation, I may 
> have found our major disagreement over "Body Bags."
>
> Yes, "Body Bags" is a sonnet.  And yes, sonnets do have an inherent 
> argument structure (I may be wrong here).   But, ultimately, "Body 
> Bags" succeeds as a poem, form aside.  The tiny portraits of the boys 
> remind me of E.A. Robinson, a poet who used formal possibilities to 
> explore thematic elements.   Like Robinson, Gwynn uses the form 
> thematically.  Each of the boys is conscripted in one way or another 
> into military service, and thus become prisoners to a system, not 
> unlike the words in the sonnet structure.  Additionally, I believe 
> that sonnets were originally love poems(?); and the portraits in each 
> section of "Body Bags" demonstrate and imply a kind of mourning common 
> in love poetry for each of the departed boys.    However, in this 
> poem, the boys can never come back.
>
> Let me end by saying that I don't think that "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly" is 
> a weak poem.  Rather, I think that it's possibly flawed by its overt 
> anger and over message?it's nearly didactic.   I don't think Pound a 
> poor poet, for the most part.  I do, however, think that he let his 
> personal agenda get in the way of his art, at least in this case.
> Let me apologize again for my first response.  It was undignified and 
> uncalled for.
> Yours,
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 5/30/05, *Jeff Newberry* <jeff.newberry at gmail.com 
> <mailto:jeff.newberry at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Yes.  CP is right.  Everyone else on the planet is wrong.
>      
>     Jeff Newberry
>
>      
>     On 5/30/05, *Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <mailto:Rsgwynn1 at cs.com>*
>     <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <mailto:Rsgwynn1 at cs.com>> wrote:
>
>         In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
>         alphavil at ix.netcom.com <mailto:alphavil at ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>>         I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for
>>         reasons
>>         perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not
>>         too say I
>>         have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry
>>         lacks the
>>         kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like
>>         knocking
>>         around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young
>>         folks
>>         about what their place might actually be in The Empire
>>         nominally known
>>         as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
>>
>>         And my first objection Body Bags would not be its
>>         sentimentality. My
>>         first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of
>>         factness. This is
>>         the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori
>>         intent, I
>>         suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace
>>         about death.
>>
>>         Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death
>>         of his
>>         friends during World War I specifically the sculptor
>>         Gaudier-Brzeska in
>>         the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In
>>         Gwynn
>>         there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and
>>         the dead
>>         kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about
>>         them. Why
>>         bother to write about them?
>>
>>         On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a
>>         whole litany
>>         of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called
>>         The Great
>>         War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In
>>         short,
>>         Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /*
>>         Cl?ante to
>>         Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range
>>         as they are
>>         to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that
>>         section of
>>         Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out,
>>         think it is
>>         about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such
>>         thing. Its truth
>>         through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments
>>         about Pound
>>         and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So
>>         dangerous its
>>         been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing
>>         sentiments.
>>
>>         This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in
>>         Formalist poetry.
>>         In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows
>>         simply from the
>>         formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the
>>         thought. An
>>         expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue
>>         as in the
>>         poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few
>>         weeks ago. 
>>         "[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely
>>         propagated for reasons of control many years ago.  The power
>>         of the
>>         Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia
>>         vulgari'
>>         sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive
>>         generations and
>>         thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
>>
>>         Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially
>>         short
>>         formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more
>>         time. Then put
>>         it in the fridge. Pull it out  a few days days later, pop the
>>         cap and
>>         see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it
>>         might be
>>         something you want to commit to memory to impress the
>>         opposite/same sex.
>>         However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But
>>         some do
>>         retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz'
>>         that
>>         eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that
>>         stays with you
>>         all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP
>
>
>
>         Whatever.
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz
>
> Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
>


From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Mon May 30 23:29:11 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:29:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating these two 
entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion having 
been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.

Quoting Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>:

> Yes. CP is right. Everyone else on the planet is wrong.
>  Jeff Newberry
> 
>  On 5/30/05, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> > alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> > I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons 
> > perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too say I 
> > have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry lacks the 
> > kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking 
> > around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks 
> > about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally known 
> > as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
> > 
> > And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My 
> > first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is 
> > the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I 
> > suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.
> > 
> > Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his 
> > friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in 
> > the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn 
> > there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead 
> > kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why 
> > bother to write about them?
> > 
> > On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany 
> > of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great 
> > War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short, 
> > Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to 
> > Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as they are 
> > to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of 
> > Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think it is 
> > about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing. Its truth 
> > through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound 
> > and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its 
> > been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.
> > 
> > This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry. 
> > In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the 
> > formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An 
> > expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in the 
> > poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks ago. 
> > "[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely 
> > propagated for reasons of control many years ago. The power of the 
> > Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari' 
> > sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations and 
> > thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
> > 
> > Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short 
> > formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put 
> > it in the fridge. Pull it out a few days days later, pop the cap and 
> > see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it might be 
> > something you want to commit to memory to impress the opposite/same sex. 
> > However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do 
> > retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that 
> > eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays with you 
> > all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Whatever. 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> > 
> >
> 





From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May 30 23:29:42 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:29:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <005401c56572$f2f6e0f0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
	<005401c56572$f2f6e0f0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <429BDA26.3080502@ix.netcom.com>

<I guess no check.>

On the contrary, Tad. I think 'Body Bags' is the kind of poem that 
deserves a little gratuity. CP

The Old Mole wrote:

>  
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <mailto:Rsgwynn1 at cs.com>
>     *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     *Sent:* Monday, May 30, 2005 7:35 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
>
>     In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
>     alphavil at ix.netcom.com <mailto:alphavil at ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>>     I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons
>>     perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too
>>     say I
>>     have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry
>>     lacks the
>>     kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking
>>     around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks
>>     about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally
>>     known
>>     as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
>>
>>     And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My
>>     first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness.
>>     This is
>>     the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori
>>     intent, I
>>     suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace
>>     about death.
>>
>>     Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his
>>     friends during World War I specifically the sculptor
>>     Gaudier-Brzeska in
>>     the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn
>>     there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead
>>     kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why
>>     bother to write about them?
>>
>>     On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole
>>     litany
>>     of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The
>>     Great
>>     War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short,
>>     Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to
>>     Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as
>>     they are
>>     to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of
>>     Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think
>>     it is
>>     about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing.
>>     Its truth
>>     through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about
>>     Pound
>>     and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous
>>     its
>>     been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing
>>     sentiments.
>>
>>     This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist
>>     poetry.
>>     In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply
>>     from the
>>     formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An
>>     expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in
>>     the
>>     poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks
>>     ago. 
>>     "[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely
>>     propagated for reasons of control many years ago.  The power of the
>>     Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari'
>>     sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations
>>     and
>>     thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
>>
>>     Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short
>>     formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time.
>>     Then put
>>     it in the fridge. Pull it out  a few days days later, pop the cap
>>     and
>>     see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it
>>     might be
>>     something you want to commit to memory to impress the
>>     opposite/same sex.
>>     However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do
>>     retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that
>>     eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays
>>     with you
>>     all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP
>
>
>
>     Whatever.
>
>      
>
>  
> I guess no check.
>  
>
>      
>      
>      
>      
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May 30 23:35:42 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:35:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <429BDB8E.6040509@ix.netcom.com>

<I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating these two 
entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion having 
been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.>

Those who can, do. Those who can't are technological positivists. CP

Dumbed down version.

Those who can, do. Those who can't have a monthly prescription.

 



Kerry O'Keefe wrote:

>I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating these two 
>entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion having 
>been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.
>
>Quoting Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>:
>
>  
>
>>Yes. CP is right. Everyone else on the planet is wrong.
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>> On 5/30/05, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote: 
>>    
>>
>>>In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time, 
>>>alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>>>I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons 
>>>perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too say I 
>>>have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry lacks the 
>>>kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking 
>>>around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks 
>>>about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally known 
>>>as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
>>>
>>>And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My 
>>>first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is 
>>>the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I 
>>>suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.
>>>
>>>Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his 
>>>friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in 
>>>the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn 
>>>there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead 
>>>kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why 
>>>bother to write about them?
>>>
>>>On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany 
>>>of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great 
>>>War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short, 
>>>Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to 
>>>Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as they are 
>>>to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of 
>>>Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think it is 
>>>about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing. Its truth 
>>>through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound 
>>>and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its 
>>>been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.
>>>
>>>This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry. 
>>>In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the 
>>>formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An 
>>>expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in the 
>>>poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks ago. 
>>>"[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely 
>>>propagated for reasons of control many years ago. The power of the 
>>>Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari' 
>>>sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations and 
>>>thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
>>>
>>>Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short 
>>>formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put 
>>>it in the fridge. Pull it out a few days days later, pop the cap and 
>>>see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it might be 
>>>something you want to commit to memory to impress the opposite/same sex. 
>>>However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do 
>>>retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that 
>>>eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays with you 
>>>all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Whatever. 
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon May 30 23:39:04 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 04:39:04 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com><731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>

From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>

> I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating these
two
> entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion
having
> been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.

Does the fish discuss the water?

It's default.

The ones who rat on about it are gasping on the strand.

Real fish argue about how the currents flow, take the water for granted.

R.




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon May 30 23:55:39 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:55:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com><731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>	<1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <429BE03B.6070006@ix.netcom.com>

Fish? Methinks I smell a trope. A hungry large mouth trope. CP



Robin Hamilton wrote:

>From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
>
>  
>
>>I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating these
>>    
>>
>two
>  
>
>>entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion
>>    
>>
>having
>  
>
>>been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.
>>    
>>
>
>Does the fish discuss the water?
>
>It's default.
>
>The ones who rat on about it are gasping on the strand.
>
>Real fish argue about how the currents flow, take the water for granted.
>
>R.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 00:28:33 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 00:28:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
Message-ID: <429BE7F1.4080701@ix.netcom.com>

<Whatever.>

Ahhh. The missing subtitle for 'Body Bags'. CP

Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>> I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons
>> perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too say I
>> have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry lacks the
>> kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking
>> around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks
>> about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally known
>> as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
>>
>> And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My
>> first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is
>> the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I
>> suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.
>>
>> Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his
>> friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in
>> the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn
>> there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead
>> kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why
>> bother to write about them?
>>
>> On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany
>> of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great
>> War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short,
>> Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to
>> Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as they are
>> to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of
>> Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think it is
>> about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing. Its truth
>> through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound
>> and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its
>> been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.
>>
>> This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry.
>> In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the
>> formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An
>> expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in the
>> poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks ago. 
>> "[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely
>> propagated for reasons of control many years ago.  The power of the
>> Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari'
>> sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations and
>> thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
>>
>> Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short
>> formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put
>> it in the fridge. Pull it out  a few days days later, pop the cap and
>> see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it might be
>> something you want to commit to memory to impress the opposite/same sex.
>> However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do
>> retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that
>> eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays with you
>> all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP
>
>
>
> Whatever.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue May 31 01:54:47 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:54:47 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
Message-ID: <200505310432.j4V4WKM3204116@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

Kerry--

Do you mean
PAS-sion
or pas-SION?

so much depends
ya know...

----------
>From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
>To: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry
News &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
>Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 7:29 PM
>

> I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating these two
> entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion having
> been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.
>
> Quoting Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>:
>
>> Yes. CP is right. Everyone else on the planet is wrong.
>>  Jeff Newberry
>>
>>  On 5/30/05, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
>> > alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>> > I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons
>> > perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too say I
>> > have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry lacks the
>> > kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking
>> > around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks
>> > about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally known
>> > as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
>> >
>> > And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My
>> > first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is
>> > the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I
>> > suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.
>> >
>> > Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his
>> > friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in
>> > the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn
>> > there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead
>> > kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why
>> > bother to write about them?
>> >
>> > On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany
>> > of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great
>> > War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short,
>> > Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to
>> > Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as they are
>> > to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of
>> > Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think it is
>> > about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing. Its truth
>> > through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound
>> > and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its
>> > been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.
>> >
>> > This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry.
>> > In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the
>> > formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An
>> > expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in the
>> > poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks ago.
>> > "[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely
>> > propagated for reasons of control many years ago. The power of the
>> > Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari'
>> > sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations and
>> > thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
>> >
>> > Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short
>> > formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put
>> > it in the fridge. Pull it out a few days days later, pop the cap and
>> > see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it might be
>> > something you want to commit to memory to impress the opposite/same sex.
>> > However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do
>> > retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that
>> > eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays with you
>> > all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Whatever.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 31 00:35:02 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 05:35:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com><731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>	<1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>
	<429BE03B.6070006@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <00f101c5659a$1e054d00$e89c9951@Robin>

From: "Alphaville" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>

> Fish? Methinks I smell a trope. A hungry large mouth trope. CP

My shark's teeth to your sheep's gums, Mein Herr.

Don't tempt me.

        "The hungry sheep look up and are not fed."

I'm in not a bad mood but in an ambiguous mood, and I'd ever so love to let
rip, but I swore years ago not to, when I realised I'd accidentally almost
driven someone to suicide.

        A bad habit of mine that I'm trying to give up.

I don't mind so much doing it, but I don't want to do it without noticing.

See?

    The Stone Dormouse

(QUOTE:  [not mine] "The ultimate sin is to be boring."

If the shoe fits, I'm quite prepared to wear it, otherwise ...

How do *your* corns feel?

R.)




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 00:40:51 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 00:40:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <00f101c5659a$1e054d00$e89c9951@Robin>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com><731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>	<1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>	<429BE03B.6070006@ix.netcom.com>
	<00f101c5659a$1e054d00$e89c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <429BEAD3.3020705@ix.netcom.com>

Does the fish discuss the water? "Your powers are such---and so subtle. I'm already in a tub of blood." CP


Robin Hamilton wrote:

>From: "Alphaville" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
>
>  
>
>>Fish? Methinks I smell a trope. A hungry large mouth trope. CP
>>    
>>
>
>My shark's teeth to your sheep's gums, Mein Herr.
>
>Don't tempt me.
>
>        "The hungry sheep look up and are not fed."
>
>I'm in not a bad mood but in an ambiguous mood, and I'd ever so love to let
>rip, but I swore years ago not to, when I realised I'd accidentally almost
>driven someone to suicide.
>
>        A bad habit of mine that I'm trying to give up.
>
>I don't mind so much doing it, but I don't want to do it without noticing.
>
>See?
>
>    The Stone Dormouse
>
>(QUOTE:  [not mine] "The ultimate sin is to be boring."
>
>If the shoe fits, I'm quite prepared to wear it, otherwise ...
>
>How do *your* corns feel?
>
>R.)
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 00:42:27 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 00:42:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <200505310432.j4V4WKM3204116@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200505310432.j4V4WKM3204116@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <429BEB33.30602@ix.netcom.com>

You have to ask? CP

Chris Stroffolino wrote:

>Kerry--
>
>Do you mean
>PAS-sion
>or pas-SION?
>
>so much depends
>ya know...
>
>----------
>  
>
>>From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
>>To: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry
>>    
>>
>News &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>  
>
>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
>>Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 7:29 PM
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating these two
>>entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion having
>>been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.
>>
>>Quoting Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Yes. CP is right. Everyone else on the planet is wrong.
>>> Jeff Newberry
>>>
>>> On 5/30/05, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:10:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
>>>>alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>>>>I've read this poem, Body Bags, by Mr. Gwynn before and for reasons
>>>>perhaps too personal, I don't much care for it. This is not too say I
>>>>have not enjoyed other of Gwynn's work even though his poetry lacks the
>>>>kind of ambition I usually associate myself with e.g. like knocking
>>>>around in David Jones like I did today to instruct some young folks
>>>>about what their place might actually be in The Empire nominally known
>>>>as "how do you get a stone to reflect?."
>>>>
>>>>And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My
>>>>first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is
>>>>the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I
>>>>suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.
>>>>
>>>>Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his
>>>>friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in
>>>>the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier. In Gwynn
>>>>there's no passion in the relationship between the poet and the dead
>>>>kids. He seem sto hardly know them, much less care about them. Why
>>>>bother to write about them?
>>>>
>>>>On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a whole litany
>>>>of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called The Great
>>>>War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In short,
>>>>Pound really cares. Sometimes Gwynn can care to as in /* Cl?ante to
>>>>Elmire*/, but geopolitical settings are way beyond his range as they are
>>>>to nearly every poet. What's more I can read most of that section of
>>>>Pound and have my audience, even conservatives caught out, think it is
>>>>about Vietnam or Iraq---or Rome. Pound intended no such thing. Its truth
>>>>through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound
>>>>and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its
>>>>been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.
>>>>
>>>>This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry.
>>>>In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the
>>>>formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought. An
>>>>expression of some universal trope becomes its great virtue as in the
>>>>poem about the death of the Pope someone sent along a few weeks ago.
>>>>"[T]he pontiff blues" is a trope, an echo of something falsely
>>>>propagated for reasons of control many years ago. The power of the
>>>>Papacy would collapse tomorrow if it ran on such 'biblia vulgari'
>>>>sentiments. Such poems will not be read by successive generations and
>>>>thought "new" unless the trope becomes self-conscious.
>>>>
>>>>Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short
>>>>formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put
>>>>it in the fridge. Pull it out a few days days later, pop the cap and
>>>>see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading. If not then it might be
>>>>something you want to commit to memory to impress the opposite/same sex.
>>>>However, even most of the 'good' ones go flat overnight. But some do
>>>>retain their 'fizz.' But after all that's all it is is 'fizz' that
>>>>eventually frees up that flat saccharin after taste that stays with you
>>>>all day---or longer if you commit the fucker to memory. CP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Whatever.
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 00:59:05 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 00:59:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <429BEB33.30602@ix.netcom.com>
References: <200505310432.j4V4WKM3204116@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
	<429BEB33.30602@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <429BEF18.1050601@ix.netcom.com>

Laius And Oedipus: A Lebanese Puppet Show:
Coup Complete: Hariri's son rises to power in Beirut:
With American, Israeli Help French Democracy Returns To Lebanon:
Assassinating Hariri A 'Sweet Deal' For West', Israel:
As Quid Pro Quo For U.S., Israel's Help In Hariri's Murder, French 
Reject E.U. Constitution:
HAPPY MEGALAMEMORIAL DAY!!!

BY MOHARMLES BUZZI
Assassinated Press Middle East Correspondent
May 30, 2005
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/

BEIWATCH, Lebanon -- A slate of puppet candidates led by the son of 
assassinated former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri with the help of tens of 
millions of dollars funneled in by the Americans to buy the vote, gives 
the appearance that they have swept the initial round of Lebanon's 
parliamentary elections yesterday, the first balloting since colonial 
rule run by the French, British and U.S. economic.

"Well. My good man. Under colonial rule we dispensed with such niceties 
as elections and cut off the heads of anyone who objected," offered Sir 
Quincy Stratford, Election Fixer to the Queen.

The 19 candidates led by Saad Hariri were sent to win all the 
legislative seats in Beirut, according to preliminary results announced 
last night. But only 28 percent of eligible voters cast ballots, the 
lowest turnout for a national Lebanese election in decades. In some 
Christian neighborhoods, turnout was as low as 10 percent because many 
people were required to travel hundreds of miles to gerrymandered 
districts already designated to one religious group or another.

But experts, for example those on a western payroll, attributed the low 
turnout to the fact that nine of the 19 seats in Beirut were 
uncontested, with Hariri's allies winning them by default before a 
single ballot was cast never mentioning the election organization 
bought, trained and paid for by France, Britain and the U.S. Seeing the 
fix was in with Washington and Paris In addition, a Christian political 
party led by the once-exiled former army commander Michel Aoun had urged 
a boycott of the Beirut elections. Aoun's party, which had no candidates 
running in Beirut, is competing in other regions where the population 
has been clustered in his favor. Three more rounds of balloting will be 
held in different parts of the country over the next three Sundays.

"Did the Hariri's ever pick up a gun? Fuck no," commented an obviously 
grumpy Aoun. "I do all the dirty work for the Yankees and they freeze my 
ass out. Well, we'll see about that."

Soon after polls closed, only a few hundred people gathered outside the 
Hariri family compound in central Beirut because USAID money had rolled 
out and the U.S. Embassy was closed for Megalamemorial Day. Saad Hariri 
stood on a balcony, waving to the cheering few mostly his Lebanese 
handlers who expect to make a fortune from his puppet state.

"With our blood, with our souls, we will sacrifice for you, Saad," a 
group of young men who had just received hundred dollar bills from State 
Department officials shouted, waving the blue flags of Hariri's Future 
Movement. After 20 minutes they all looked at their watches and dispersed.

*"Now Its Almost Fuckin' Sophocles."*

"This is a victory for Rafik Hariri. The blood of Rafik Hariri will not 
go in vain," Saad Hariri told the crowd. The young Hariri, 35, had never 
been involved in politics before he plotted with the U.S., France and 
Israel in the assassination of his father Feb. 14.

*"Bloody Geopolitical Greek Tragedy In The Making If You Ask Me."*

The plot was to have Rafik Hariri's supporters blame his killing on 
Syria and its allies in the Lebanese security services, a charge 
Damascus denied. The assassination would then trigger prearranged 
international pressure bought and paid for by the U.S. and France who 
would also finance and organize a wave of wildly popular paid protests 
that led to the resignation of the Syrian-backed Lebanese government and 
to the withdrawal of Syrian troops last month even though larger unpaid 
crowds turned out in support of the Syrian presence. Syria had kept 
troops in Lebanon since 1976, a year after the start of a civil war. But 
when the war ended in 1990, Syrian troops remained and Syria's influence 
extended to all parts of Lebanon's political and economic life. Now, 
like never before or at least not since colonial rule, French, Israeli 
and American influence will extend to all parts of Lebanon's political 
and economic life.

The anti-Syrian opposition is expected to buy a majority in the 
128-member parliament. Once a new legislature is in place at the end of 
June, it is expected to name the new cabinet decided on by the French 
and Americans last week and perhaps seek to replace with extreme 
prejudice the Syrian-backed Lebanese president, Emile Lahoud. 
Understanding the need for stability at a time when the western powers 
are fomenting unrest, the Lebanese parliament in September extended 
Lahoud's six-year term for three years, an act that Rafik Hariri used to 
appear to turn against Syria when in reality it was lucrative offers of 
compensation from the west..

Saad Hariri used his father's killing as a theme throughout the campaign 
to show ho ruthless he will be. On buildings and billboards across 
Beirut, there were posters of the slain Hariri like Laius looming over 
his son Oedipus. Other posters showed only Rafik Hariri's face with the 
words, "What the...!?" It urged voters not to select the "slate of the 
martyred former prime minister" but his murderers instead.

That strategy appeared to work with voters, many of whom know little 
about Saad Hariri and his western friends.

* Nabiha Jaber: Honorary American.*

"I am here to vote for the sake of our martyr, Rafik Hariri," said 
Nabiha Jaber, 56, a housewife, holding in her leathery hand a piece of 
paper listing the "martyr's" slate. "Though I don't have a clue who 
killed him, he died to protect us all."

Some Lebanese stayed away from the polls because they want an end to the 
sectarian political system that has governed Lebanon since its 
independence from France in 1943 when the sects knew their place e.g. 
the gallows. When the structure was put in place, Christians were a 
slight majority in Lebanon. Under this system, the country's president 
must be a Maronite Christian, the prime minister a Sunni Muslim, and the 
speaker of parliament a Shia Muslim. The 128 seats in parliament are 
equally divided among Christians and Muslims, even though Christians are 
now estimated to make up only a third of the population.

"We need a modern political system where we don't choose our leaders 
based on their religion," said Ahmad Rifai, 46, an architect who was 
strolling along Beirut's seaside Corniche. "Now, the fuckin' French and 
Americans are back ruling the country. Those fuckers base elections on 
how much one rich shit will steal for a bunch of other rich shits."





>


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 31 01:02:56 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:02:56 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com><731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>	<1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>	<429BE03B.6070006@ix.netcom.com><00f101c5659a$1e054d00$e89c9951@Robin>
	<429BEAD3.3020705@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <010501c5659e$03eed8b0$e89c9951@Robin>

From: "Alphaville" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>

> Does the fish discuss the water? "Your powers are such---and so subtle.
I'm already in a tub of blood." CP

Been there, when the piranha fish were eviscerating each other in a bucket.

Seriously, I'd rather not return to that singular incident.

    Remember Thor 5, when the sky fell?

Surely we all have better things to do.

        Deacon Brodie

(Despite thy high wit, Unferth, thou art damned.)

A better thing I have to do with my time is translating Beowulf into Glasgow
speech rather than flapping around like a gutted flounder trading insults
with boring eejits.

Frankly.

            :-(

R.





From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 01:17:57 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 01:17:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <010501c5659e$03eed8b0$e89c9951@Robin>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com><731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>	<1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>	<429BE03B.6070006@ix.netcom.com><00f101c5659a$1e054d00$e89c9951@Robin>	<429BEAD3.3020705@ix.netcom.com>
	<010501c5659e$03eed8b0$e89c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <429BF385.9040806@ix.netcom.com>

Yeah. I agree. Who has the time for bitter *internescine* rivalries 
among poets. I've been reviewing tapes of Scott McLellan's press 
conferences since last Thursday and I've developed a nutrient deficiency 
that the doctor described as a kind of moral scurvy. CP

Robin Hamilton wrote:

>From: "Alphaville" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
>
>  
>
>>Does the fish discuss the water? "Your powers are such---and so subtle.
>>    
>>
>I'm already in a tub of blood." CP
>
>Been there, when the piranha fish were eviscerating each other in a bucket.
>
>Seriously, I'd rather not return to that singular incident.
>
>    Remember Thor 5, when the sky fell?
>
>Surely we all have better things to do.
>
>        Deacon Brodie
>
>(Despite thy high wit, Unferth, thou art damned.)
>
>A better thing I have to do with my time is translating Beowulf into Glasgow
>speech rather than flapping around like a gutted flounder trading insults
>with boring eejits.
>
>Frankly.
>
>            :-(
>
>R.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue May 31 03:20:59 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:20:59 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob/Blind Willie
Message-ID: <200505310558.j4V5wVsk108110@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

ROBIN----
     this stuff is great. Have you written a book, or, better,
     hosted a radio show , or made a CD, tracing this stuff---
     I know others do this kind of thing, but it'd be really great to hear
your takes more in detail.

Chris
    of CP
       (Continuous Peasant
        not Communist Party)

----------
>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob/Blind Willie
>Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 6:20 PM
>

> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> [quoting]:
>
>> melody, derived from the blues standard "St. James Infirmary," is
>
> Actually, this is the kicker.
>
> The post-1790s "Rake's Lament" did a three way split when it crossed the
> Pond.
>
> The main line is "The Streets of Laredo"/"The Cowboy's Lament".
>
> Cowboy folk, and god knows how many versions of *that* there are.  Leave
> aside parodies and imitations.
>
> The jazz [NOT blues] version was I think first done by Cab Calloway, and
> then by Satchmo.
>
> That was called "St James Infirmary", and the title goes back to a syph
> hospital in 19thC London.
>
> (There were other hospitals, but St James Infirmary was the only one that
> seems to have crossed the Pond as a title.)
>
> As far as I know, Blind Willie McTell (and there are several versions of the
> song he sang and various stories behind it) was the first to do it as blues.
>
> ... except there are bits of Blind Willie's blues version ("The Dying
> Crapshooter's Blues") that track back to details in the 1790s Cork/Dublin
> fragments.
>
> It's an absolute bloody (fascinating) mess, and I can't make the least sense
> of it, other than that in the US of A there are three distinct *strands* --
> folk, jazz, and blues.
>
>     {Well, I think I have my head around what happens *before* it crosses
> the Pond, but that's fairly -- ha! --straightforward.}
>
> Dylan's homage to Blind Willie doesn't seem to pick-up on this at all, so
> all this is possibly stunningly irrelevant.
>
> The latest seems to be Emmy Lou Harris in a song in +Red Dirt Girl+ (about
> her father in the airforce in the Great Patriotic War), so the cowboy thread
> is still alive and kicking.
>
> I wish someone would uncrumple this much-crumpled thing -- frankly, it's
> beyond me.
>
> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From uche at ogbuji.net  Tue May 31 08:00:22 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:00:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com>
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>  <429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>

On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 18:08 -0400, Alphaville wrote:

> And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My 
> first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is 
> the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I 
> suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.

Are you kidding?  The most wrenching and enduring emotions have been
captured in poems with matter-of-fact veneers.  Read any Villon, ever?

> Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his 
> friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in 
> the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier.

Non dulce, non et decor, etc...., is a master work, like most of
Mauberley, but from this you manage to eke out some notion that it's the
only way to express horror at war?  I'm surprised to hear from a clearly
mature mind the sort of absolute perspective I'd expect from an
adolescent.  I take it Wilfred Owen doesn't work for you, either.

> Its truth 
> through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound 
> and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its 
> been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.
> 
> This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry. 

You're right that hard-hitting invective and satire have all but
disappeared from much poetry in modern times.  I'm not sure why we have
left that important function to comedy talk show hosts, but I can't
imagine how you associate such failure with form.  Free verse is just as
gun-shy these days as formal verse.  "slam poetry", or what I call
modern bardic verse, is the only genre I know of that is holding the
naptha torch, and not to open up what seems to be a favorite point of
argument around here, but I believe this is one major reason the modern
bard, especially in the hip-hop sub-genre, is the only poet of relevance
to much of the population.

> In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the 
> formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought.

Sure, but luckily for us the greatest poetic minds of history have
proven time and time again that form's function is to concentrate and
intensify statement, rather than to dampen or perjure it.  Of course, a
bad poet can screw up form, but in my experience (again another
deathless argument here) bad poets in form tend to be bad poets in free
verse.  A bad poet is a bad poet.  Period.

> Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short 
> formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put 
> it in the fridge. Pull it out  a few days days later, pop the cap and 
> see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading.

Again, you make a reasonable enough point about poetry, and ruin it with
a careless swipe at form.  This "fizz test" of yours is appropriate for
poetry of any genre, and in fact, it's the foundational test for poetry.
Poetry that does not stand re-reading, regardless of genre, is almost
without question bad poetry.

I liked "Body Bags".  To me, the obvious skill with which it was written
intensified my appreciation of the tragedy it evokes, and I don't think
it takes much sensitivity to see past the matter-of-fact surface.  I
just re-read it, and, yes, it still had the fizz in this second reading.
I'll be very surprised if it's lost it by my third, but we'll see.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Tue May 31 08:30:24 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:30:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050530180941d51b52@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a050530180941d51b52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1117542625.4800.147.camel@malatesta>


>         And my first objection Body Bags would not be its
>         sentimentality. My 
>         first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of
>         factness. This is 
>         the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori
>         intent, I 
>         suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace
>         about death.

> I respond:

> Big Greek words for "prior" aside,

Small Latin ones :-)  But really, thanks for the reminder not to neglect
that important sense of "prior".  It's a pretty weird effect when a
perfectly good word loses a very handy sense out of neglect, and we end
up picking up a middle Latin phrase to replace it.


> I argue that passion in "Body Bags" stems from its subject matter.

That's never enough, though.  Not for poetry.

>   The poem offers portaits of boys who went on to be killed for no
> real reason.  A memory piece, the poem allows the speaker three small
> moments of reflection on lives that never were lead.  Where is this
> lack of passion?  The matter-of-factness is its strength.  Talk to
> those who've lost friends or family (and not only war); grief and
> memory are matter-of-fact.  The sobering reality of death calls for
> something "common place."

Very well put.

> CP wrote:

>         On the other hand, Pound is angry and in his anger nails a
>         whole litany 
>         of authentic non-sentimental reasons for the slaughter called
>         The Great 
>         War that have their seat in historical and economic fact. In
>         short, 
>         Pound really cares. 
> 
> Well, yes. Pound is angry.  But the speaker's anger is just that:
> anger.  It generates no response in this reader.

Hmm.  I don't think this is borne out by the endurance of that EPOde
passage.  I think it is indeed very effective to most readers.  Matter-
of-fact is appropriate for threnody, but that doesn't mean that strong
statement isn't.  I'm not sure why this particular thread insists on
alternating between extremes.

> When I read these sections of "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly," I see a poet
> angry (rightfully) at the slaughter and destruction of war.  I see a
> poet who (rightly again) cries out against the brutality and slaughter
> of senseless war.  However, I also see, above everything else, an
> agenda.  Pound wants us to agree with Pound.

I think any reader would agree, but I don't see what that has to do with
the quality of the poem.  Surely there's nothing wrong with argument.

> Pound may really care, but if we are to care, as well, then we need to
> adopt all of his worldviews and baggage.

Very untrue.  I disagree with much of Pound's world view, but this does
not mean that he does not persuade me on particular points.  The passage
in question is an excellent example.  You can be persuaded of the waste
that Pound is decrying without following him all the way in the line
that includes taking up with Fascists.

> But, ultimately, "Body Bags" succeeds as a poem, form aside.

The salient point.  And I agree.

> Let me end by saying that I don't think that "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly" is
> a weak poem.  Rather, I think that it's possibly flawed by its overt
> anger and over message?it's nearly didactic.

Some of the best poetry is didactic.  Argument and instruction is an
important function of poetry, and it's an indictment of our poetic
generation that we shy away from the didactic.  Overt anger is very
useful, and as can be as cathartic as subtler expression, given enough
skill.  Pound had plenty of that skill.


> I don't think Pound a poor poet, for the most part.  I do, however,
> think that he let his personal agenda get in the way of his art,

That's the funny thing about Pound.  His art was so brilliant that it
made his personal agenda almost an insignificant point.  Who can say
whether or not he would have been as brilliant without the flawed
philosophy?  It's a long-standing philosophical argument whether art
supersedes the foibles of the artist, and I won't truck into that one
here.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Tue May 31 08:32:48 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:32:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <429BD929.2010002@ix.netcom.com>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a050530180941d51b52@mail.gmail.com>
	<429BD929.2010002@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1117542768.4800.151.camel@malatesta>

On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 23:25 -0400, Alphaville wrote:
> As for "Where is the 
> lack of passion"---why in its "matter of factness." I think Gwynn would 
> not agree with the matter of factness, which almost implies glibness, 
> being his intent.

matter-of-factness does not "almost imply" glibness.  Please avoid the
violence to English.  It doesn't do your argument any good.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From uche at ogbuji.net  Tue May 31 08:36:05 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:36:05 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <1117542965.4800.154.camel@malatesta>

On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 04:39 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> 
> > I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating these
> two
> > entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion
> having
> > been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.
> 
> Does the fish discuss the water?
> 
> It's default.
> 
> The ones who rat on about it are gasping on the strand.
> 
> Real fish argue about how the currents flow, take the water for granted.

I love a shade of Wole Soyinka to help wake me up.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue May 31 08:41:52 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:41:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, Uncle Walt
Message-ID: <731bb17a05053105416300041e@mail.gmail.com>

The *Writer's Almanac* informs me that today is Walt Whitman's birthday:

 It's the birthday of *Walt
Whitman<http://mail.publicradio.org/site/R?i=WSmY04KsppGLJtlDxyvojA..>
*, (*books by this
author*<http://mail.publicradio.org/site/R?i=bdFqofTmUz-u5npiLrtDVA..>)
born West Hills, Long Island (1819). When Whitman was six years old, his 
father took him to see the Marquis de Lafayette, the great French General, 
who picked the little boy out of the crowd, lifted him up and kissed him on 
the cheek, which Whitman felt later marked him for greatness.

In his teens he was an apprentice printer on a newspaper in Brooklyn. He 
wandered around the city, looking at museums and going to theaters, talking 
to people on the streets. He loved printing. He loved the way words looked 
on a page. He said of his first published writing, "How it made my heart 
double beat to see my piece on the pretty white paper in nice type."

There was a fire in Manhattan in December 1835 that destroyed the printing 
district. Whitman had to move and get a job as a teacher. He taught in a 
series of one-room schoolhouses and wrote to a friend, "How tired and sick I 
am of this wretched, wretched hole. Damnation, thy other name is school 
teaching."

Walt Whitman moved back to New York City and started writing for newspapers. 
He loved the penny papers?the cheap ones?their lively style. He said, "I 
like limber, lashing, fierce words... strong, cutting, beautiful, rude 
words." He liked to walk up and down Broadway and around in Battery Park. 

He wrote a novel about the evils of alcohol called *Evans, or The Inebriate: 
A Tale of the Times*, (1842). It sold more than 20,000 copies. He went to 
New Orleans in 1846 to write for a newspaper there. He was amazed at what he 
saw: the mixture of Spanish and English and French. He saw slaves being 
auctioned on the block. He came to believe that he should write something to 
hold the country together, that America needed a poetry unlike poetry of 
Europe. The first edition of *Leaves of
Grass<http://mail.publicradio.org/site/R?i=yEUxOFEbP1Sw8fXMOTzWmQ..>
* came out in 1855, unrhymed, un-metered poetry that combined language of 
sermons, romantic poetry and working class slang.

He sent copies to many important writers. John Greenleaf Whittier threw his 
in the fire. Ralph Waldo Emerson responded. He wrote to Whitman, "I greet 
you at the beginning of a great career," which Whitman later printed on the 
cover. It was one of the first blurbs in American publishing. It got mostly 
terrible reviews, but Whitman kept issuing new editions.

He died in 1892, more popular in Europe than in this country, but now he is 
considered the first great American poet. 

from "Song of the Open Road":
  
5

 From this hour I ordain myself loos'd of limits and imaginary lines, 

Going where I list, my own master total and absolute, 

Listening to others, considering well what they say, 

Pausing, searching, receiving, contemplating, 

Gently,but with undeniable will, divesting myself of the holds that would 
hold me. 

I inhale great draughts of space, 

The east and the west are mine, and the north and the south are mine. 

 I am larger, better than I thought, 

I did not know I held so much goodness. 

 All seems beautiful to me, 

I can repeat over to men and women You have done such good to me I would do 
the same to you, 

I will recruit for myself and you as I go, 

I will scatter myself among men and women as I go, 

I will toss a new gladness and roughness among them, 

Whoever denies me it shall not trouble me, 

Whoever accepts me he or she shall be blessed and shall bless me. 

 6

 Now if a thousand perfect men were to appear it would not amaze me, 

Now if a thousand beautiful forms of women appear'd it would not astonish 
me. 

 Now I see the secret of the making of the best persons, 

It is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth. 

 Here a great personal deed has room, 

(Such a deed seizes upon the hearts of the whole race of men, 

Its effusion of strength and will overwhelms law and mocks all authority and 
all argument against it.) 

 Here is the test of wisdom, 

Wisdom is not finally tested in schools, 

Wisdom cannot be pass'd from one having it to another not having it, 

Wisdom is of the soul, is not susceptible of proof, is its own proof, 

Applies to all stages and objects and qualities and is content, 

Is the certainty of the reality and immortality of things, and the 
excellence of things; 

Something there is in the float of the sight of things that provokes it out 
of the soul. 

 Now I re-examine philosophies and religions, 

They may prove well in lecture-rooms, yet not prove at all under the 
spacious clouds and along the landscape and flowing currents. 

 

-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Tue May 31 08:42:53 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:42:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <429BEB33.30602@ix.netcom.com>
References: <200505310432.j4V4WKM3204116@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
	<429BEB33.30602@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1117543373.4800.161.camel@malatesta>

Kerry O'Keefe:
>>I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating
these two
> >>entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion having
> >>been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.

Chris Stroffolino:
>Do you mean
> >PAS-sion
> >or pas-SION?
> >
> >so much depends
> >ya know...
> 

Alphaville:
> You have to ask? CP

Of course.  Who's interested in watching someone beating their chest in
defense of some quantity, when it's utterly unclear just what quantity
they're meaning, and when the distinctions between quantities are
essential.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 31 10:39:56 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:39:56 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A nod to Bob/Blind Willie
References: <200505310558.j4V5wVsk108110@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <003001c565ef$8e5d5e80$f19c9951@Robin>

> ROBIN----
>      this stuff is great. Have you written a book, or, better,
>      hosted a radio show , or made a CD, tracing this stuff---
>      I know others do this kind of thing, but it'd be really great to hear
> your takes more in detail.
>
> Chris

This started ages ago as an attempt to trace the tradition of The Rake's
Lament from the 1790s to the present.  Somehow, all too typically of me, I
ran out of steam or got distracted or something.

What I seem to have to date is 35 pages (not desperately well organised).
Pretty much complete up to the point the song crosses the Pond, and the
central texts thereafter.  Not much connecting discussion in the second bit.
Still hoping to finish it sometime, or at least push it a bit further.
(I've god knows how many texts of Laredo that should be scanned in, for one
thing.)

Anyway, if you'd be interested in seeing what there is so far, Chris, I
could backchannel it to you.

Robin




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue May 31 10:52:19 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:52:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan as traditionalist
Message-ID: <BEC1E453.12841%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I'm always interested in song lyrics as poetry.

For those who are interested in the lyrics of Bob Dylan, bobdylan.com
helpfully provides all of them online:

http://bobdylan.com/songs/

Personally, I don't think "Blind Willie McTell" is a world masterpiece, but
it's a fine song in Dylan's magpie mode, in which he sweeps together,
lyrically and musically, bits and pieces of traditional stuff, and makes it
his own.

I've lost the bookmark, but a few years ago I ran across a web site that was
devoted to ferreting out and documenting all of Dylan's many borrowings from
traditional British ballads, blues songs, etc.  I am no longer surprised
when I hear some folk musicians playing, and think "that's a Dylan
tune!"--when in fact, he often has borrowed (not always acknowledging the
fact) melodies and lines from the tradition, in good traditional fashion.

A decade or more back, Dylan put out two records entirely of traditional
songs, mostly ballads and blues, with spare acoustic guitar accompaniment.
His notes on them are little prose poems in themselves.  *Good as I Been To
You* and *World Gone Wrong* are the titles; I don't think he covered "Dying
Crapshooter's Blues" on these, but hearing Dylan croak out "Froggie Went
a'Courtin'" is an irreproducible experience.

"Blind Willie McTell"'s melody is Dylan's, as far as I know, but the lyrics
border on pastiche.


Blind Willie McTell

Seen the arrow on the doorpost
Saying, "This land is condemned
All the way from New Orleans
To Jerusalem."
I traveled through East Texas
Where many martyrs fell
And I know no one can sing the blues
Like Blind Willie McTell

Well, I heard the hoot owl singing
As they were taking down the tents
The stars above the barren trees
Were his only audience
Them charcoal gypsy maidens
Can strut their feathers well
But nobody can sing the blues
Like Blind Willie McTell

See them big plantations burning
Hear the cracking of the whips
Smell that sweet magnolia blooming
(And) see the ghosts of slavery ships
I can hear them tribes a-moaning
(I can) hear the undertaker's bell
(Yeah), nobody can sing the blues
Like Blind Willie McTell

There's a woman by the river
With some fine young handsome man
He's dressed up like a squire
Bootlegged whiskey in his hand
There's a chain gang on the highway
I can hear them rebels yell
And I know no one can sing the blues
Like Blind Willie McTell

Well, God is in heaven
And we all want what's his
But power and greed and corruptible seed
Seem to be all that there is
I'm gazing out the window
Of the St. James Hotel
And I know no one can sing the blues
Like Blind Willie McTell
 
--Bob Dylan



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 10:55:48 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:55:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com> <429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com>
	<1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com>

<Read any Villon, ever?>

Yes. And it leaves me wondering which Villon you read.

<Wilfred Owen>?

Experentially Owen, who isn't a tenth the poet Pound is, is world's away from the bland Gwynn. I'll let the rest of your remarks speak for themselves.---FIZZ P.S. I did include other forms of poetry.

Note: I spent the rest of my AM last night writing a suicide note that if I should ever choose such a route, and believe me such pedestrian remarks as Uche's incline me in that direction, that no matter what the genuine reason for taking my own life---back taxes, conspiracy gone sour, people discover I'm X + Y's lovechild---that my demise should be attributed to the lethal wit of one Robin Hamilton back on the big island of the pale farts in order to enhance his legend as autosuicidist that it might grow and be made into a FOX miniseries starring Sylvester Stallone as the delusional, ego ridden antagonist.  



Uche Ogbuji wrote:

>On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 18:08 -0400, Alphaville wrote:
>
>  
>
>>And my first objection Body Bags would not be its sentimentality. My 
>>first objection is its lack of passion. Its matter of factness. This is 
>>the result of conjuring a false experience to fit an apriori intent, I 
>>suspect. And the apriori intent collpases into a commonplace about death.
>>    
>>
>
>Are you kidding?  The most wrenching and enduring emotions have been
>captured in poems with matter-of-fact veneers.  Read any Villon, ever?
>
>  
>
>>Compare Gwynn to Pound's passion and bitterness at the death of his 
>>friends during World War I specifically the sculptor Gaudier-Brzeska in 
>>the section of Hugh Selwyn Mauberley I sent along earlier.
>>    
>>
>
>Non dulce, non et decor, etc...., is a master work, like most of
>Mauberley, but from this you manage to eke out some notion that it's the
>only way to express horror at war?  I'm surprised to hear from a clearly
>mature mind the sort of absolute perspective I'd expect from an
>adolescent.  I take it Wilfred Owen doesn't work for you, either.
>
>  
>
>>Its truth 
>>through passion in Pound and before the sophomoric comments about Pound 
>>and Hitler begin to flow, such passion is dangerous. So dangerous its 
>>been all but banished from American poetry and liberalizing sentiments.
>>
>>This might be the most frequent shortcoming I see in Formalist poetry. 
>>    
>>
>
>You're right that hard-hitting invective and satire have all but
>disappeared from much poetry in modern times.  I'm not sure why we have
>left that important function to comedy talk show hosts, but I can't
>imagine how you associate such failure with form.  Free verse is just as
>gun-shy these days as formal verse.  "slam poetry", or what I call
>modern bardic verse, is the only genre I know of that is holding the
>naptha torch, and not to open up what seems to be a favorite point of
>argument around here, but I believe this is one major reason the modern
>bard, especially in the hip-hop sub-genre, is the only poet of relevance
>to much of the population.
>
>  
>
>>In lesser poets to a great degree inauthenticity follows simply from the 
>>formal opportunites themselves that begin to drive the thought.
>>    
>>
>
>Sure, but luckily for us the greatest poetic minds of history have
>proven time and time again that form's function is to concentrate and
>intensify statement, rather than to dampen or perjure it.  Of course, a
>bad poet can screw up form, but in my experience (again another
>deathless argument here) bad poets in form tend to be bad poets in free
>verse.  A bad poet is a bad poet.  Period.
>
>  
>
>>Besides, you can use the 'fizz' factor on poetry, especially short 
>>formalist poems. Read it. If you like it read it one more time. Then put 
>>it in the fridge. Pull it out  a few days days later, pop the cap and 
>>see if its lost its "fizz" upon a 3rd reading.
>>    
>>
>
>Again, you make a reasonable enough point about poetry, and ruin it with
>a careless swipe at form.  This "fizz test" of yours is appropriate for
>poetry of any genre, and in fact, it's the foundational test for poetry.
>Poetry that does not stand re-reading, regardless of genre, is almost
>without question bad poetry.
>
>I liked "Body Bags".  To me, the obvious skill with which it was written
>intensified my appreciation of the tragedy it evokes, and I don't think
>it takes much sensitivity to see past the matter-of-fact surface.  I
>just re-read it, and, yes, it still had the fizz in this second reading.
>I'll be very surprised if it's lost it by my third, but we'll see.
>
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 10:59:25 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:59:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <1117543373.4800.161.camel@malatesta>
References: <200505310432.j4V4WKM3204116@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>	<429BEB33.30602@ix.netcom.com>
	<1117543373.4800.161.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <429C7BCD.10209@ix.netcom.com>

Well. After your remark about Villon, I figured you had to ask. FIZZ

Uche Ogbuji wrote:

>Kerry O'Keefe:
>  
>
>>>I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating
>>>      
>>>
>these two
>  
>
>>>>entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion having
>>>>been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.
>>>>        
>>>>
>
>Chris Stroffolino:
>  
>
>>Do you mean
>>    
>>
>>>PAS-sion
>>>or pas-SION?
>>>
>>>so much depends
>>>ya know...
>>>      
>>>
>
>Alphaville:
>  
>
>>You have to ask? CP
>>    
>>
>
>Of course.  Who's interested in watching someone beating their chest in
>defense of some quantity, when it's utterly unclear just what quantity
>they're meaning, and when the distinctions between quantities are
>essential.
>
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 11:11:53 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:11:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <1117542768.4800.151.camel@malatesta>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>	<731bb17a050530180941d51b52@mail.gmail.com>	<429BD929.2010002@ix.netcom.com>
	<1117542768.4800.151.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <429C7EB9.4080104@ix.netcom.com>

Oooooh. Such a small college in Illinois academic type of remark. Very 
same reason I don't read the Pound or Olson letters. FIZZ

Uche Ogbuji wrote:

>On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 23:25 -0400, Alphaville wrote:
>  
>
>>As for "Where is the 
>>lack of passion"---why in its "matter of factness." I think Gwynn would 
>>not agree with the matter of factness, which almost implies glibness, 
>>being his intent.
>>    
>>
>
>matter-of-factness does not "almost imply" glibness.  Please avoid the
>violence to English.  It doesn't do your argument any good.
>
>  
>


From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Tue May 31 11:15:06 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:15:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Robinson Jeffers
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2AF7@mail.emerson.edu>

thanks for the jeffers poem. . .  



-----Original Message-----
From:	new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Jeff Newberry
Sent:	Mon 5/30/2005 5:27 PM
To:	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
Cc:	
Subject:	[New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Robinson Jeffers

Here's the poem you refer to. I love the line about America's "mould of 
vulgarity." Paris Hilton, MTV, Nanny 911 . . . I could go on. But Jeffers 
sums it all quite well, I believe:
 Shine, Perishing Republic
Robinson Jeffers
 While this America settles in the mould of its vulgarity, heavily 
thickening
to empire,
And protest, only a bubble in the molten mass, pops and sighs out, and the
mass hardens,
I sadly smiling remember that the flower fades to make fruit, the fruit rots
to make earth.
Out of the mother; and through the spring exultances, ripeness and 
decadence;
and home to the mother.

You making haste, haste on decay: not blameworthy; life is good, be it
stubbornly long or suddenly
A mortal splendor: meteors are not needed less than mountains:
shine, perishing republic.
But for my children, I would have them keep their distance from the
thickening center; corruption
Never has been compulsory, when the cities lie at the monster's feet there
are left the mountains.

And boys, be in nothing so moderate as in love of man, a clever servant,
insufferable master.
There is the trap that catches noblest spirits, that caught -- they say --
God, when he walked on earth.


   On 5/30/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote:

> Reading Bloom's book on Hamlet today and finding the following (p.141): 
> "Historians . . . are likely to see the destruction of the World Trade 
> Center as the overt beginning of what could turn out to be a hundred years' 
> war between extremist Islamism and the West."
> 
> Then hearing Prez Bush on the radio extolling the sacrifices, the blood. . 
> .
> 
> Can't remember the Jeffers line about protest being a bubble that bursts 
> ineffectually and pathetically. . .
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz
> 
> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>



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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 31 11:18:13 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:18:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>
	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>
	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>

<<
a suicide note that if I should ever choose such a route, and believe me
such pedestrian remarks as Uche's incline me in that direction, that no
matter what the genuine reason for taking my own life---back taxes,
conspiracy gone sour, people discover I'm X + Y's lovechild---that my demise
should be attributed to the lethal wit of one Robin Hamilton back on the big
island of the pale farts in order to enhance his legend as autosuicidist
that it might grow and be made into a FOX miniseries starring Sylvester
Stallone as the delusional, ego ridden antagonist.
>>

Hey, Carlo, could you add a codicil specifying that I get to write the
screenplay?  And get cast to play myself ...

Robin




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 11:33:00 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:33:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com>
	<005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <429C83AC.7090205@ix.netcom.com>

Absolutely. I'm flattered you would ask!! FIZZ

Robin Hamilton wrote:

><<
>a suicide note that if I should ever choose such a route, and believe me
>such pedestrian remarks as Uche's incline me in that direction, that no
>matter what the genuine reason for taking my own life---back taxes,
>conspiracy gone sour, people discover I'm X + Y's lovechild---that my demise
>should be attributed to the lethal wit of one Robin Hamilton back on the big
>island of the pale farts in order to enhance his legend as autosuicidist
>that it might grow and be made into a FOX miniseries starring Sylvester
>Stallone as the delusional, ego ridden antagonist.
>  
>
>
>Hey, Carlo, could you add a codicil specifying that I get to write the
>screenplay?  And get cast to play myself ...
>
>Robin
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 31 12:19:22 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:19:22 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com><005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>
	<429C83AC.7090205@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <008101c565fc$82bac790$f19c9951@Robin>

> Absolutely. I'm flattered you would ask!! FIZZ

I might expand my own part and reduce yours, though.

As far as I know, I haven't actually driven anyone to suicide (or at least
no one has yet mentioned me as a major cause of them topping themselves) but
I did some time ago resolve to tone it down a bit.

It was on the Milton-L list, and I was having great fun eviscerating some
poor bugger over the Platonic background to John's Gospel leading directly
to the concept of the Trinity (my point).

The research for this consisted of ringing up the major English Milton
scholar to ask how exactly you spelled "Johannine".

"I'm afraid Professor Campbell is not available at the moment," said this
polite middle-class female voice.

"Oh," I said, "just wanted to know how you spell the whatsit name of John's
Gospel when you're being academic," I mumbled.

"It's got two 'n's, you illiterate wee Glasgow shite," she snarled, and
slammed the phone down.

(This irritated the hell out of my then fianc?e, an American Miltonist -- 
"You rang up Gordon to ask him THAT?" she screamed down an email.)

Only time I seriously wished I was a professor -- be nice to have a
secretary as efficient as that.

Anyway, in the course of this fiasco, I had a plaintive backchannel from the
guy I was arguing with to the effect that he wasn't *quite* as stupid as I
was making him out to be.  (He was, actually.)

It suddenly struck me that while it was just a fun game to me, this poor
sod's academic reputation was on the line.

So I resolved to be more restrained in future.

Robin

> >Hey, Carlo, could you add a codicil specifying that I get to write the
> >screenplay?  And get cast to play myself ...
> >
> >Robin




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 12:59:58 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:59:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <008101c565fc$82bac790$f19c9951@Robin>
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com><005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C83AC.7090205@ix.netcom.com>
	<008101c565fc$82bac790$f19c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <429C980E.1050208@ix.netcom.com>

Well. Not having the the temperament for academic 'precision' and 
bearing in mind that these are emails which often don't beg much 
revision when the landlord's knockin', your restraint is not out of 
place. I've nothing at stake so I'm  hard to kill.  The Assassinated 
Press for all its one draft flaws has procured a rather large (having 
done this sort of thing one way or another for decades I'm a bit 
shocked) number of death threats. Also, a series of behavior aimed at my 
family and myself that arches from mere pranks to serious felonies not 
to mention additional computer expenses. And all this fuss over a site 
that gets about  500 hits a day. Geez.

So when you suggested you could induce me to do myself in, I thought 
"What a magnificent refinement. I should suggest this to my fellow 
citizenry who object so much to Ass. Press."

Ass. Press has also been criticized for its juvenile sloppiness, but who 
is my target audience. People who applaud Ass. Press are generally the 
same people who are of age to go into military service and I think 
people smarter than the composition class morons on the lists realize 
this. Thus the threats. I just think there are things that people are 
better off not experiencing and I hate with a "passion", that might 
escape Stroffolino now(but certainly passion was there in a raw way in 
his political verse) and the bland Uche, those that induce children to 
risk their lives to enrich an already obscenely wealthy and brutal 
kleptocracy. See---Major General Smedley Darlington Butler.

But the idea that you could induce me to take my own life gave me a 
great laugh. I kept seeing Bela Lugosi using telepathy to make me plunge 
off of a cliff or some such Hollywood Gothic fare. What a fucking 
appropriate heading to these emails. FIZZ

Robin Hamilton wrote:

>>Absolutely. I'm flattered you would ask!! FIZZ
>>    
>>
>
>I might expand my own part and reduce yours, though.
>
>As far as I know, I haven't actually driven anyone to suicide (or at least
>no one has yet mentioned me as a major cause of them topping themselves) but
>I did some time ago resolve to tone it down a bit.
>
>It was on the Milton-L list, and I was having great fun eviscerating some
>poor bugger over the Platonic background to John's Gospel leading directly
>to the concept of the Trinity (my point).
>
>The research for this consisted of ringing up the major English Milton
>scholar to ask how exactly you spelled "Johannine".
>
>"I'm afraid Professor Campbell is not available at the moment," said this
>polite middle-class female voice.
>
>"Oh," I said, "just wanted to know how you spell the whatsit name of John's
>Gospel when you're being academic," I mumbled.
>
>"It's got two 'n's, you illiterate wee Glasgow shite," she snarled, and
>slammed the phone down.
>
>(This irritated the hell out of my then fianc?e, an American Miltonist -- 
>"You rang up Gordon to ask him THAT?" she screamed down an email.)
>
>Only time I seriously wished I was a professor -- be nice to have a
>secretary as efficient as that.
>
>Anyway, in the course of this fiasco, I had a plaintive backchannel from the
>guy I was arguing with to the effect that he wasn't *quite* as stupid as I
>was making him out to be.  (He was, actually.)
>
>It suddenly struck me that while it was just a fun game to me, this poor
>sod's academic reputation was on the line.
>
>So I resolved to be more restrained in future.
>
>Robin
>
>  
>
>>>Hey, Carlo, could you add a codicil specifying that I get to write the
>>>screenplay?  And get cast to play myself ...
>>>
>>>Robin
>>>      
>>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Tue May 31 13:32:04 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:32:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deep Throat
Message-ID: <200505311732.j4VHW4u9003482@mail3.atl.registeredsite.com>

9


A former FBI official claims he was "Deep Throat," the long-anonymous 
source who leaked secrets about President Nixon's Watergate coverup to 
The Washington Post, Vanity Fair reports.  

W. Mark Felt, 91, who was second-in-command at the FBI in the early 
1970s, kept the secret even from his family until 2002.  

"I don't think (being Deep Throat) was anything to be proud of," Felt said.  
"You (should) not leak information to anyone."  




Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  


9



From uche at ogbuji.net  Tue May 31 13:46:24 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:46:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <429C7BCD.10209@ix.netcom.com>
References: <200505310432.j4V4WKM3204116@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
	<429BEB33.30602@ix.netcom.com> <1117543373.4800.161.camel@malatesta>
	<429C7BCD.10209@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1117561584.4800.164.camel@malatesta>

On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 10:59 -0400, Alphaville wrote:
> Well. After your remark about Villon, I figured you had to ask. FIZZ

*shrug*.  Some people like to communicate.  Some people think they're
too clever to communicate.  I put you in the latter category based on
such comments, so I won't waste much time playing games with you.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 14:34:42 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:34:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <1117561584.4800.164.camel@malatesta>
References: <200505310432.j4V4WKM3204116@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>	<429BEB33.30602@ix.netcom.com>
	<1117543373.4800.161.camel@malatesta>	<429C7BCD.10209@ix.netcom.com>
	<1117561584.4800.164.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <429CAE42.1000300@ix.netcom.com>

What a relief, K.  There are enough predictable, banal people on this 
list that I'm always grateful when one acknowledges this. CP

Uche Ogbuji wrote:

>On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 10:59 -0400, Alphaville wrote:
>  
>
>>Well. After your remark about Villon, I figured you had to ask. FIZZ
>>    
>>
>
>*shrug*.  Some people like to communicate.  Some people think they're
>too clever to communicate.  I put you in the latter category based on
>such comments, so I won't waste much time playing games with you.
>
>  
>


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 31 17:04:18 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:04:18 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com><005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C83AC.7090205@ix.netcom.com><008101c565fc$82bac790$f19c9951@Robin>
	<429C980E.1050208@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <010901c56624$50331cf0$f19c9951@Robin>

> The Assassinated
> Press for all its one draft flaws has procured a rather large (having
> done this sort of thing one way or another for decades I'm a bit
> shocked) number of death threats. Also, a series of behavior aimed at my
> family and myself that arches from mere pranks to serious felonies not
> to mention additional computer expenses. And all this fuss over a site
> that gets about  500 hits a day. Geez.

Yuck! -- dat's nasty.  Commiserations, for what it's worth.

Do you write it all yourself?  I do check it out now and then, and rather
like it, so I suppose I must have a juvenile sense of humour.

> So when you suggested you could induce me to do myself in, I thought
> "What a magnificent refinement. I should suggest this to my fellow
> citizenry who object so much to Ass. Press."

Be my guest -- I claim no copyright on the idea.

> But the idea that you could induce me to take my own life gave me a
> great laugh. I kept seeing Bela Lugosi using telepathy to make me plunge
> off of a cliff or some such Hollywood Gothic fare. What a fucking
> appropriate heading to these emails. FIZZ

Now you're talking about a different thing, hexes rather than driving
someone to suicide.  I gave up putting hexes on people *much* earlier, way
before I ever encountered computers.

There was a program on the radio -- this goes back to the early sixties -- 
called Radio Luxemburg, ages before official commercial radio in the UK, and
it was then the only one broadcasting wall-to-wall pop.  There was a
singularly irritating character called Horace Bachelor who used to break
into the middle of songs to advertise his Infra Draw Pools Method, which got
smack up my nose, so I thought I'd try to put a hex on him.

The next day he went off air, no explanation, for three weeks.

Sheer coincidence, obviously, but I decided that it was better to be safe
than have even a thing like HB on my conscience, so I never tried it again.
Ever.

So you needn't worry about me hexing you, Carlo -- not something I do.

Robin




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 17:18:42 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:18:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <010901c56624$50331cf0$f19c9951@Robin>
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com><005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C83AC.7090205@ix.netcom.com><008101c565fc$82bac790$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C980E.1050208@ix.netcom.com>
	<010901c56624$50331cf0$f19c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <429CD4B2.4070702@ix.netcom.com>

I think there are several hundred pieces up on Ass. Press. Even given 
its method and improv, a person would need help.

Still very funny idea trying to get the readership to induce me to 
suicide by the cogency of their argument especially given the grammar of 
the ones who have gotten through so far. Damn, its worse than mine. FIZZ

Robin Hamilton wrote:

>>The Assassinated
>>Press for all its one draft flaws has procured a rather large (having
>>done this sort of thing one way or another for decades I'm a bit
>>shocked) number of death threats. Also, a series of behavior aimed at my
>>family and myself that arches from mere pranks to serious felonies not
>>to mention additional computer expenses. And all this fuss over a site
>>that gets about  500 hits a day. Geez.
>>    
>>
>
>Yuck! -- dat's nasty.  Commiserations, for what it's worth.
>
>Do you write it all yourself?  I do check it out now and then, and rather
>like it, so I suppose I must have a juvenile sense of humour.
>
>  
>
>>So when you suggested you could induce me to do myself in, I thought
>>"What a magnificent refinement. I should suggest this to my fellow
>>citizenry who object so much to Ass. Press."
>>    
>>
>
>Be my guest -- I claim no copyright on the idea.
>
>  
>
>>But the idea that you could induce me to take my own life gave me a
>>great laugh. I kept seeing Bela Lugosi using telepathy to make me plunge
>>off of a cliff or some such Hollywood Gothic fare. What a fucking
>>appropriate heading to these emails. FIZZ
>>    
>>
>
>Now you're talking about a different thing, hexes rather than driving
>someone to suicide.  I gave up putting hexes on people *much* earlier, way
>before I ever encountered computers.
>
>There was a program on the radio -- this goes back to the early sixties -- 
>called Radio Luxemburg, ages before official commercial radio in the UK, and
>it was then the only one broadcasting wall-to-wall pop.  There was a
>singularly irritating character called Horace Bachelor who used to break
>into the middle of songs to advertise his Infra Draw Pools Method, which got
>smack up my nose, so I thought I'd try to put a hex on him.
>
>The next day he went off air, no explanation, for three weeks.
>
>Sheer coincidence, obviously, but I decided that it was better to be safe
>than have even a thing like HB on my conscience, so I never tried it again.
>Ever.
>
>So you needn't worry about me hexing you, Carlo -- not something I do.
>
>Robin
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 31 17:49:05 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:49:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time
Message-ID: <147.467763b2.2fce35d1@aol.com>

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/05/31_ap_poetlaureate/

Minnesota poet laureate is not to be
May 31, 2005 
 
St. Paul, Minn. ? (AP) - A bill establishing an official poet laureate in 
Minnesota met a tragic fate.
 
Gov. Tim Pawlenty penned the fatal verse when he vetoed the bill. The 
Republican governor took the action Friday but didn't announce it until Tuesday.
 
"Even though we have a state 'folklorist,' I also have concern this will lead 
to calls for other similar positions," Pawlenty wrote in letter accompanying 
the veto. "We could also see requests for a state mime, interpretive dancer or 
potter."
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue May 31 17:55:37 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:55:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
Message-ID: <1f3.ad518ef.2fce3759@aol.com>

"The best lack all convictions, while the worst 
Are full of passionate intensity."


Don't forget Yeats' famous admonition.
Finnegan
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 31 18:05:15 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:05:15 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com><005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C83AC.7090205@ix.netcom.com><008101c565fc$82bac790$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C980E.1050208@ix.netcom.com><010901c56624$50331cf0$f19c9951@Robin>
	<429CD4B2.4070702@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <012601c5662c$d393f350$f19c9951@Robin>

> I think there are several hundred pieces up on Ass. Press. Even given
> its method and improv, a person would need help.
>
> Still very funny idea trying to get the readership to induce me to
> suicide by the cogency of their argument especially given the grammar of
> the ones who have gotten through so far. Damn, its worse than mine. FIZZ

            Oo, I'm tempted, I'm tempted.

"Dear Sir/Madam and Editor of Assassinated Press,

In the interests of the world in general and my three year old daughter
(whose mind is being tainted by the Evil and Filthy Words which you are
propagating) in particular, I feel that the only decent thing you can do is
to terminate yourself with extreme prejudice at once, if not before.

Otherwise, can I interest you in a business opportunity?

My late uncle Harry (who expired incontinently and intestate two years ago
via a mosquito bite to his left big toe), the late God-Emperor of Nigeria,
left the amount of dollars 395 Million in an American bank.  While you are
obviously an atheistical and evil corruptor of the minds of the young (and
old), would you perhaps be interested in facilitating the transfer of this
money to my good self, in exchange for 20% of the amount?

Simply send me full details of your bank account and an open money order for
the sum of $10,000 dollars and you will shortly be rich quite beyond the
dreams of even your notorious avarice.

Yours,

A Concerned and Patriotic Right-Thinking (Naturalised) American Born-Again
Evangelical Fundamentalist."

Robin





From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 31 18:13:25 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:13:25 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1f3.ad518ef.2fce3759@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014501c5662d$f811ba40$f19c9951@Robin>

<<
"The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

Don't forget Yeats' famous admonition.
Finnegan
>>

Hm ... "Don't forget ..."

"Conviction", surely, Finnegan, or did you intend the widening gyre to
extend to encompass the plural?

Robin




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 18:22:09 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:22:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <1f3.ad518ef.2fce3759@aol.com>
References: <1f3.ad518ef.2fce3759@aol.com>
Message-ID: <429CE391.6030007@ix.netcom.com>

Then he indeed was among the worst. FIZZ

JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> "The best lack all convictions, while the worst
> Are full of passionate intensity."
>  
> Don't forget Yeats' famous admonition.
> Finnegan
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 18:24:45 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:24:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <012601c5662c$d393f350$f19c9951@Robin>
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com><005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C83AC.7090205@ix.netcom.com><008101c565fc$82bac790$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C980E.1050208@ix.netcom.com><010901c56624$50331cf0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429CD4B2.4070702@ix.netcom.com>
	<012601c5662c$d393f350$f19c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <429CE42D.60304@ix.netcom.com>

<In the interests of the world in general and my three year old daughter
(whose mind is being tainted by the Evil and Filthy Words which you are
propagating) in particular, I feel that the only decent thing you can do is
to terminate yourself with extreme prejudice at once, if not before.>

Done. Damn your good. FIZZ



Robin Hamilton wrote:

>>I think there are several hundred pieces up on Ass. Press. Even given
>>its method and improv, a person would need help.
>>
>>Still very funny idea trying to get the readership to induce me to
>>suicide by the cogency of their argument especially given the grammar of
>>the ones who have gotten through so far. Damn, its worse than mine. FIZZ
>>    
>>
>
>            Oo, I'm tempted, I'm tempted.
>
>"Dear Sir/Madam and Editor of Assassinated Press,
>
>In the interests of the world in general and my three year old daughter
>(whose mind is being tainted by the Evil and Filthy Words which you are
>propagating) in particular, I feel that the only decent thing you can do is
>to terminate yourself with extreme prejudice at once, if not before.
>
>Otherwise, can I interest you in a business opportunity?
>
>My late uncle Harry (who expired incontinently and intestate two years ago
>via a mosquito bite to his left big toe), the late God-Emperor of Nigeria,
>left the amount of dollars 395 Million in an American bank.  While you are
>obviously an atheistical and evil corruptor of the minds of the young (and
>old), would you perhaps be interested in facilitating the transfer of this
>money to my good self, in exchange for 20% of the amount?
>
>Simply send me full details of your bank account and an open money order for
>the sum of $10,000 dollars and you will shortly be rich quite beyond the
>dreams of even your notorious avarice.
>
>Yours,
>
>A Concerned and Patriotic Right-Thinking (Naturalised) American Born-Again
>Evangelical Fundamentalist."
>
>Robin
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 31 18:55:16 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:55:16 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com><005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C83AC.7090205@ix.netcom.com><008101c565fc$82bac790$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C980E.1050208@ix.netcom.com><010901c56624$50331cf0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429CD4B2.4070702@ix.netcom.com><012601c5662c$d393f350$f19c9951@Robin>
	<429CE42D.60304@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <015801c56633$d0420500$f19c9951@Robin>

<<
> <In the interests of the world in general and my three year old daughter
> (whose mind is being tainted by the Evil and Filthy Words which you are
> propagating) in particular, I feel that the only decent thing you can do
is
> to terminate yourself with extreme prejudice at once, if not before.>
>
> Done. Damn your good. FIZZ
>>

Oops!  Done it again, haven't I?

When's the memorial service?  I'll try and get there to deliver an
you-loggy -- "Nothing became his life quite so much as the leaving of it."

    It's not the leaving of Liverpool that grieves me / But that Carlo I
must say thee farewell ...

Do let me know which circle you're in, and I'll try and visit when I arrive
myself in due time.

R.

        To south the headstones cluster,
        The sunny mounds lie thick;
        The dead are more in muster
        At Hughley than the quick.
        North, for a soon-told number,
        Chill graves the sexton delves,
        And steeple-shadowed slumber
        The slayers of themselves.

A.E.Housman




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue May 31 19:18:27 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:18:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time
Message-ID: <e4.6a4636f4.2fce4ac3@cs.com>

In a message dated 5/31/2005 4:50:55 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/05/31_ap_poetlaureate/
>   
>  Minnesota poet laureate is not to be
> 
>  May 31, 2005 
> 
>  
> 
>  St. Paul, Minn. ? (AP) - A bill establishing an official poet laureate in 
> Minnesota met a tragic fate.
> 
>   
> 
>  Gov. Tim Pawlenty penned the fatal verse when he vetoed the bill. The 
> Republican governor took the action Friday but didn't announce it until Tuesday.
> 
>   
> 
>  "Even though we have a state 'folklorist,' I also have concern this will 
> lead to calls for other similar positions," Pawlenty wrote in letter 
> accompanying the veto. "We could also see requests for a state mime, interpretive 
> dancer or potter."
> 
> 
> 
Yes, stop them before they multiply!
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue May 31 19:27:10 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:27:10 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time
Message-ID: <24760142.1117582030690.JavaMail.root@wamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Don't we have a National Mime?

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
Sent: May 31, 2005 4:18 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time

In a message dated 5/31/2005 4:50:55 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/05/31_ap_poetlaureate/
>   
>  Minnesota poet laureate is not to be
> 
>  May 31, 2005 
> 
>  
> 
>  St. Paul, Minn. ? (AP) - A bill establishing an official poet laureate in 
> Minnesota met a tragic fate.
> 
>   
> 
>  Gov. Tim Pawlenty penned the fatal verse when he vetoed the bill. The 
> Republican governor took the action Friday but didn't announce it until Tuesday.
> 
>   
> 
>  "Even though we have a state 'folklorist,' I also have concern this will 
> lead to calls for other similar positions," Pawlenty wrote in letter 
> accompanying the veto. "We could also see requests for a state mime, interpretive 
> dancer or potter."
> 
> 
> 
Yes, stop them before they multiply!


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue May 31 19:50:36 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:50:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <015801c56633$d0420500$f19c9951@Robin>
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com><005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C83AC.7090205@ix.netcom.com><008101c565fc$82bac790$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C980E.1050208@ix.netcom.com><010901c56624$50331cf0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429CD4B2.4070702@ix.netcom.com><012601c5662c$d393f350$f19c9951@Robin>	<429CE42D.60304@ix.netcom.com>
	<015801c56633$d0420500$f19c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <429CF84C.8010501@ix.netcom.com>

The bugger's dead, doncha know. Finally, he's shat up and a fine example 
that way. And there ain't a lazarae in his G gNome.

Robin Hamilton wrote:

><<
>  
>
>><In the interests of the world in general and my three year old daughter
>>(whose mind is being tainted by the Evil and Filthy Words which you are
>>propagating) in particular, I feel that the only decent thing you can do
>>    
>>
>is
>  
>
>>to terminate yourself with extreme prejudice at once, if not before.>
>>
>>Done. Damn your good. FIZZ
>>    
>>
>
>Oops!  Done it again, haven't I?
>
>When's the memorial service?  I'll try and get there to deliver an
>you-loggy -- "Nothing became his life quite so much as the leaving of it."
>
>    It's not the leaving of Liverpool that grieves me / But that Carlo I
>must say thee farewell ...
>
>Do let me know which circle you're in, and I'll try and visit when I arrive
>myself in due time.
>
>R.
>
>        To south the headstones cluster,
>        The sunny mounds lie thick;
>        The dead are more in muster
>        At Hughley than the quick.
>        North, for a soon-told number,
>        Chill graves the sexton delves,
>        And steeple-shadowed slumber
>        The slayers of themselves.
>
>A.E.Housman
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From bardo at optonline.net  Tue May 31 19:52:24 2005
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:52:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time
References: <147.467763b2.2fce35d1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009201c5663b$cb185400$3a95c044@MULDER>

A state mime? Brilliant! (Words fail me.)

~ Dan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 5:49 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time


  http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/05/31_ap_poetlaureate/

  Minnesota poet laureate is not to be

  May 31, 2005 

   

  St. Paul, Minn. ? (AP) - A bill establishing an official poet laureate in Minnesota met a tragic fate.

   

  Gov. Tim Pawlenty penned the fatal verse when he vetoed the bill. The Republican governor took the action Friday but didn't announce it until Tuesday.

   

  "Even though we have a state 'folklorist,' I also have concern this will lead to calls for other similar positions," Pawlenty wrote in letter accompanying the veto. "We could also see requests for a state mime, interpretive dancer or potter."



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue May 31 19:59:00 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:59:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
References: <1c2.29a34464.2fcc8ad4@cs.com>	<429B8EEC.9020602@ix.netcom.com><1117540822.4800.120.camel@malatesta>	<429C7AF4.7040407@ix.netcom.com><005001c565f3$f72a25c0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C83AC.7090205@ix.netcom.com><008101c565fc$82bac790$f19c9951@Robin>	<429C980E.1050208@ix.netcom.com><010901c56624$50331cf0$f19c9951@Robin>	<429CD4B2.4070702@ix.netcom.com><012601c5662c$d393f350$f19c9951@Robin>	<429CE42D.60304@ix.netcom.com><015801c56633$d0420500$f19c9951@Robin>
	<429CF84C.8010501@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <017f01c5663c$b8191690$f19c9951@Robin>

Fritz:

> The bugger's dead, doncha know. Finally, he's shat up and a fine example
> that way. And there ain't a lazarae in his G gNome.

So regenerate him from his DNA, why don'tya?

Can't be *that* bloody difficult.  I'm told they sell home-kits on ebay.
Cheap.

Frankenstein's Monster





From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue May 31 22:34:17 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:34:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <1117593257.429d1ea94a7cd@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

I wish it worked that way, but I don't believe it does.

Quoting Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>:

> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> 
> > I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating these
> two
> > entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion
> having
> > been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics, etc.
> 
> Does the fish discuss the water?
> 
> It's default.
> 
> The ones who rat on about it are gasping on the strand.
> 
> Real fish argue about how the currents flow, take the water for granted.
> 
> R.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From Thom424 at aol.com  Tue May 31 22:42:49 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:42:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blind Willie Mctell
Message-ID: <be.29d39210.2fce7aa9@aol.com>

if anyone's interested:   you can download blind willie mctell's "the dyin' 
crapshooter's blues" at itunes (for .99). if you go to itunes, search the music 
store by typing in his full name in the search block. then click on browse. 
click on "all." two 30 second versions will be listed, and you can preview both 
for free.

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn

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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue May 31 23:48:03 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:48:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day
In-Reply-To: <1117593257.429d1ea94a7cd@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com>
	<731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin>
	<1117593257.429d1ea94a7cd@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <1117597683.429d2ff3c2f57@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

On the other hand, CP, these communications always take on a kind of personal 
vituperative thing that perplexes me.  Why all the ugliness, from one who sees 
so much evil in the big picture?  I like the thought of overturning applecarts 
in the name of telling the truth.  In cheap family psych books, that role is 
reserved for the SCAPEGOAT - the one who says "THERE'S A DESD ELEPHANT IN THE 
LIVING ROOM" and everyone says, "Oh stop that" and goes back to talking about 
gourmet cheese.  I was and am that person in interpersonal settings - I don't 
even try to blow the whistle on the world - I truly do not understand the world 
well enough - but I am fierce with those around me - in my sphere of home and 
work. I really don't suffer alot of bullshit and somehow find the strength 
(age?) to just bloody well say what I think.  It can be hard on people.   But 
there is this way that it seems YOU LIKE TO MAKE WAR...? and I think of it as a 
personal inclination, having, really nothing to do with belief...

Quoting Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>:

> I wish it worked that way, but I don't believe it does.
> 
> Quoting Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>:
> 
> > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> > 
> > > I will say this:  CP is the only guy on this list I recall relating
> these
> > two
> > > entities: passion and poetry.  I really can't recall the word passion
> > having
> > > been used before in my months here.  But ALOT of talk about metrics,
> etc.
> > 
> > Does the fish discuss the water?
> > 
> > It's default.
> > 
> > The ones who rat on about it are gasping on the strand.
> > 
> > Real fish argue about how the currents flow, take the water for granted.
> > 
> > R.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>