From marcus Tue Mar 1 08:06:42 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 08:06:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D4@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <42242292.21822.16FD74@localhost> On 28 Feb 2005 at 16:46, Graham, David wrote: > ... For it to mean something, you have to write in meter.< Here, once again, is an example of the sort of bad reasoning to which the notion of poetry-as-term-of-value is polyphiloprogenitor: in spite of the fact that I've repeatedly pointed out that whether poetry or prose is good or not, or means something or not, is an entirely different question from whether a piece of writing is poetry or not, David seems intent on pretending that I've said that only poetry "means something". But this is wrong. I haven't said it it, and it's not the case. It is not the case that only poetry means something; it is not the case that one can find meaning only in poetry. Go ahead, David, say it loud and say it proud: you think that the term "poetry" means "the good stuff"; that it is not a descriptive term but a term of value. Marcus From marcus Tue Mar 1 08:22:46 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 08:22:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus and shame In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <42242656.29557.25B479@localhost> Kent Johnson mocks: > ... how it is > possible I could have so completely wasted my life in this thing > called poetry, what good have I done the world, what has been the > point, you know ... And then on top of this ... I read on this list > that I haven't even been writing Poetry at > all, why no: I have only been writing PROSE and calling it "Poetry" ...< Here, again, with that "only" Kent misses the point in the same way David Graham does. Kent is once again asserting, here, the view that "poetry" is a term of value, that "poetry" is "the good stuff", and not a descriptive term of a mode of writing. There is no shame in writing prose -- no shame in diaries, journalism, columns, flash fiction, email, personal anecdote, or any of the rest, unless it is badly done. But even there whatever shame there may be rests in the quality of the work not the category of the work. Kent Johnson mocks: > ... all this time I have been thinking I was a poet > or I have been trying to be a poet and then this little smarty pants > who writes in meter tells me I have been trying to justify my empty > life by calling myself a poet when in fact I haven't even been writing > poetry I've been writing prose...< Here, again, with that "justify my empty life" business Kent still clings to the poetry-as-term-of-value notion. He accepts, with that, that if he can successfully claim the title of "poet" his life will not be empty after all -- that "poet" and "poetry" are terms of value, not descriptions of a mode of writing. His tone and manner expect the reader to hold the same as he tries to mock the notion that poetry is a description rather than a term of value. He seems to recognize no writing other than poetry that could make his life something other than empty; he seems to recognize no term of value other than "poetry". If he can't have poetry he'll die, poor dear. Marcus From halvard Tue Mar 1 08:42:37 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:42:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Rachel Loden, "The Little Richard Story" Message-ID: <001a01c51e64$87cf4d80$e8f4e704@computer> > The Little Richard Story > > The god of Abraham is a true God. > Now we gonna do "Rip It Up." > --Reverend Richard Penniman > > Nothing is talking to you > in the numbers, in the leaves. > No mambo mambo on the wind. > No colored streamers in the skies. > No one has pasted little notes > to you, like kisses. > No Fred, no Ginger, > no sudden bursting > into Stone Age languages. > No angels clustered in the rafters. > No giants sacked out on the stove. > > On a day like this, > without the music > of appearances, creatures > could land and you > would not be able to explain > anything to them, not > the fearless industry > of beavers, or why dust bunnies > prefer the dark, not even > how Little Richard > himself came into being. > > --Rachel Loden > > fr. Hotel Imperium > [Athens, Georgia: University of Georgia Press, 1999] > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2436 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tad Tue Mar 1 08:46:15 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:46:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Rachel Loden, "The Little Richard Story" References: <001a01c51e64$87cf4d80$e8f4e704@computer> Message-ID: <003a01c51e65$0c034c00$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Good one. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:42 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Rachel Loden,"The Little Richard Story" > >> The Little Richard Story >> >> The god of Abraham is a true God. >> Now we gonna do "Rip It Up." >> --Reverend Richard Penniman >> >> Nothing is talking to you >> in the numbers, in the leaves. >> No mambo mambo on the wind. >> No colored streamers in the skies. >> No one has pasted little notes >> to you, like kisses. >> No Fred, no Ginger, >> no sudden bursting >> into Stone Age languages. >> No angels clustered in the rafters. >> No giants sacked out on the stove. >> >> On a day like this, >> without the music >> of appearances, creatures >> could land and you >> would not be able to explain >> anything to them, not >> the fearless industry >> of beavers, or why dust bunnies >> prefer the dark, not even >> how Little Richard >> himself came into being. >> >> --Rachel Loden >> >> fr. Hotel Imperium >> [Athens, Georgia: University of Georgia Press, 1999] >> >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> =============== >> email: halvard at earthlink.net >> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From GrahamD Tue Mar 1 08:57:00 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:57:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D7@URANIUM.ripon.college> On 28 Feb 2005 at 16:46, Graham, David wrote: > ... For it to mean something, you have to write in meter.< Here, once again, is an example of the sort of bad reasoning to which the notion of poetry-as-term-of-value is polyphiloprogenitor: in spite of the fact that I've repeatedly pointed out that whether poetry or prose is good or not, or means something or not, is an entirely different question from whether a piece of writing is poetry or not, David seems intent on pretending that I've said that only poetry "means something". ================= Here, once again, we have an example of one of my little jokes failing to get across. No doubt my fault. Any occasion that draws forth the term "polyphiloprogenitor," though, is worth it, I feel. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Tue Mar 1 09:04:46 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:04:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D7@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <4224302E.18112.4C279C@localhost> On 1 Mar 2005 at 7:57, Graham, David wrote: > Here, once again, we have an > example of one of my little jokes failing to get across.< So you're resorting to the "It was just a joke" defense, are you? What was the point of the joke, David? Wasn't the intention of your mockery to try to point out that poetry is a term of value and not a description of a mode of writing? "... For it to mean something, you have to write in meter." If it's a joke then the point of it must be to try to mock the notion that poetry is a term of description instead of a term of value. Marcus From GrahamD Tue Mar 1 09:07:17 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:07:17 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D8@URANIUM.ripon.college> > "... For it to mean something, you have to write in meter." > > If it's a joke then the point of it must be to try to mock the notion > that poetry is a term of description instead of a term of value. > > Marcus ================================= Oh, by all means, Marcus, let's move on from defining Poetry to defining Humor and what the point of it must be. . . . *Must* be? ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Tue Mar 1 09:11:06 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:11:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D8@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <422431AA.16569.51F57F@localhost> > "... For it to mean something, you have to write in meter." > If it's a joke then the point of it must be to try to mock the > notion that poetry is a term of description instead of a term of > value. Marcus ================================= > On 1 Mar 2005 at 8:07, Graham, David wrote: > Oh, by all means, Marcus, let's move on from defining Poetry to > defining Humor and what the point of it must be. . . . > *Must* be? This is a false generalization. I don't propose to define humor by pointing out that if your joke has a point what that point must be. Yes, must be. If it is a joke at all the point of it must be that poetry is a term of value, and not a desciption of a mode of writing. If that is not the point, then it is not a joke at all. You're the one who said it was a joke. If the point of your joke is other than trying to say that poetry is a term of value not a descriptive term, then what IS the point of your joke? Marcus From Kent.Johnson Tue Mar 1 10:12:25 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:12:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rachel Loden: "the Little Richard Story" Message-ID: I did an interview with Rachel a couple years back, "Poetic License and the Powers That Be." Rachel is brilliant. It's here: http://jacketmagazine.com/21/loden-iv.html From halvard Tue Mar 1 10:16:02 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:16:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D7@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: IctusSelf-abasement will get you nowhere around here, David. Leave it to the expert(s). Hal ""Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ Here, once again, we have an example of one of my little jokes failing to get across. No doubt my fault. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Tue Mar 1 10:28:23 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:28:23 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus and depression Message-ID: >Here, again, with that "only" Kent misses the point in the same way David Graham does. Marcus, at this point it doesn't matter what you say to try to make me feel better. You have sent me into a depression that I will have a very hard time crawling out from. Thanks a lot. Kent From GrahamD Tue Mar 1 11:20:43 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:20:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rictus Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D9@URANIUM.ripon.college> > Self-abasement will get you nowhere around here, David. > Leave it to the expert(s). > > Hal --------------------------------- Geez, a guy can't even self-abase around this joint. Ah, what to do? Humor gets me nowhere, either. Like Kent, I'm now formally depressed. . . . ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > Here, once again, we have an example of one of my little jokes failing to get across. > > No doubt my fault. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 Tue Mar 1 11:45:23 2005 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:45:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] change o' pace Message-ID: <1a7.328192a6.2f55f623@aol.com> Join Emily in ringing in the new month: Dear March - Come in - How glad I am - I hoped for you before - Put down your Hat - You must have walked - How out of Breath you are - Dear March, how are you, and the Rest - Did you leave Nature well - Oh March, Come right up stairs with me - I have so much to tell - I got your Letter, and the Birds - The Maples never knew that you were coming - I declare - how Red their Faces grew - But March, forgive me - All those Hills you left for me to Hue - There was no Purple suitable - You took it all with you - Who knocks? That April - Lock the Door - I will not be pursued - He stayed away a Year to call When I am occupied - But trifles look so trivial As soon as you have come That Blame is just as dear as Praise And Praise as mere as Blame - ??????????????????? 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URL: From mandolin Tue Mar 1 11:54:20 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:54:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rictus In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D9@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D9@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <10131383.1109696061060.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, March 01, 2005, at 11:23AM, Graham, David wrote: > >Like Kent, I'm now formally depressed. . . . > Doesn't scan. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From GrahamD Tue Mar 1 12:02:39 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:02:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rictus Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9DC@URANIUM.ripon.college> > > > >Like Kent, I'm now formally depressed. . . . > > > > Doesn't scan. > > ---------------------------------------- Well, a guy really can't catch a break around here. OK. How's this? This post? It sucks! It's just a test: Like Kent, I'm formally depressed. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Tue Mar 1 12:05:53 2005 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:05:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Rictus Message-ID: <21366977.1109696753923.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Snider Sent: Mar 1, 2005 9:54 AM To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rictus On Tuesday, March 01, 2005, at 11:23AM, Graham, David wrote: > > > >Like Kent, I'm now formally depressed. . . . > > > Doesn't scan. Them's that can't, pan. - Jim From DICK Tue Mar 1 13:04:03 2005 From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:04:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus Message-ID: <200503011803.j21I35df015376@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your file: NEW-POET NOTE of: 03/01 11:26:17 *************** Marcus says: >>poetry is a ...desciption of a mode of writing. The problem is that most everybody else has one or more different definitions. Since most everybody else won't give up his/her definition, Marcus needs a new word for his definition - maybe "metery." No value judgment implied, just a description of a mode of writing. Richard From mandolin Tue Mar 1 13:51:56 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:51:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Prose In-Reply-To: <21366977.1109696753923.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <21366977.1109696753923.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <10961979.1109703116197.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Mark Woods, at his wonderful Wood's Lot blog ( http://www.ncf.ca/~ek867/wood_s_lot.html )posted Howard Nemerov's Because You Asked about the Line between Prose and Poetry Sparrows were feeding in a freezing drizzle That while you watched turned into pieces of snow Riding a gradient invisible >From silver aslant to random, white, and slow. There came a moment that you couldn't tell. And then they clearly flew instead of fell. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From elemenope Tue Mar 1 01:23:25 2005 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:23:25 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Poem" - - defined by American Heritage Dictionary In-Reply-To: <200503011618.j21GIA0t027111@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200503011618.j21GIA0t027111@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: POEM 1. A verbal composition designed to convey experiences, ideas or emotions, characterized by the use of condensed language chosen for its sound and suggestive power and by the use of literary techniques such as meter, metaphor and rhyme. 2, A composition in verse rather than in prose. 3. A literary composition written with an intensity or beauty of language more characteristic of poetry than of prose. 4. A creation, an object, or an experience having beauty suggestive of poetry. [Fr. poeme < OFr. < Lat. poema < Gk. poiema < poiein, to create.] R i c h a r d D i l l o n -- From marcus Tue Mar 1 14:35:07 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:35:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus In-Reply-To: <200503011803.j21I35df015376@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <42247D9B.29975.17A98F7@localhost> Marcus says: >poetry is a ...desciption of a mode of > writing. DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote: > The problem is that most everybody else has one or more > different definitions. Since most everybody else won't give up > his/her definition, Marcus needs a new word for his definition - maybe > "metery." No value judgment implied, just a description of a mode of > writing.< Poetry is the time-honored way to distinguish writing in meter from writing not in meter. Let those who are writing not in meter get the new name for their new writing, leaving "poetry" for writing in meter. Let them earn the cultural weight and social significance of the work they do by doing the work they do consistently and well. Marcus From JforJames Tue Mar 1 17:43:51 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:43:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus Message-ID: <149.404f9c42.2f564a27@aol.com> In a message dated 3/1/2005 2:35:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: Poetry is the time-honored way to distinguish writing in meter from writing not in meter. Let those who are writing not in meter get the new name for their new writing, leaving "poetry" for writing in meter. Let them earn the cultural weight and social significance of the work they do by doing the work they do consistently and well. Marcus Marcus, isn't the term 'cultural weight' very much 'value-laden'? Certainly 'social significance' is. So your word 'poetry' (meaning writing in meter) is not the cold, emotionless definition you were asserting it to be in oh so many posts. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Mar 1 17:48:52 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:48:52 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? [Was: Ictus] References: <42247D9B.29975.17A98F7@localhost> Message-ID: <002e01c51eb0$d7f17490$3f9f9951@Robin> Marcus said: > Poetry is the time-honored way to distinguish writing in meter from > writing not in meter. Actually, pace Marcus, the time-honoured way (from Aristotle to Sir Philip Sidney) to define poetry was the (effective) use of metaphor. The earlier (till the 18thC?) distinctions tended to between poetry/history/philosophy [not poetry/prose], the later two of which could be written in either metred or non-metred lines, but writing in metre, per se, didn't make a work "poetry", either in descriptive or judgemental terms. ... the concept of metaphor isn't a good/bad distinction but a yes-it-is[may be]-poetry, no-it-isn't-poetry one. So Marcus' allegation that metre in itself is enough to separate poetry from prose is a-historic. (Also, of course, as metred writing tends, in virtually every culture, to predate non-metered writing, it can get murky. There was a time when *all* "writing" [sic -- I'm sure people didn't before a certain point invariable *speak* in metre] was in metre, so how then did you distinguish poetry from non-poetry? ) But this is strictly off-the-top-off-my-head (though I've had it in the back of there for a long time, reading Marcus's comments). But surely there is a proper (as opposed to me, amateur) literary historian in the house [Kent?] who could tease this out. I could do it, I suppose, but I'd have to look things up, and I'd rather someone else did the work. Robin From antrobin Tue Mar 1 18:05:30 2005 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:05:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? [Was: Ictus] In-Reply-To: <002e01c51eb0$d7f17490$3f9f9951@Robin> Message-ID: <070701c51eb3$31395f70$cb3d1c40@Emily> "for indeed the greatest parts of poets have appareled their poetical inventions in that numbrous kind of writing which is called verse--indeed but appareled, verse being but an ornament and no cause to poetry, since there have been many excellent poets that never versified, and now swarm many versifiers that need never answer to the name of poets." Philip Sidney, _A Defence of Poetry_ From robin.hamilton2 Tue Mar 1 18:54:44 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:54:44 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? [Was: Ictus] References: <070701c51eb3$31395f70$cb3d1c40@Emily> Message-ID: <006001c51eba$0b27df80$3f9f9951@Robin> From: "Anthony Robinson" >since there have been many excellent poets that never versified, e.g. (though I'm not sure where this is said, and I don't think by Sidney) Plato [ironically enough] himself. Robin From marcus Tue Mar 1 18:59:01 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:59:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus In-Reply-To: <149.404f9c42.2f564a27@aol.com> Message-ID: <4224BB75.16602.20B861@localhost> > marcus at designerglass.com writes: > Poetry is the time-honored way to distinguish writing in meter > from writing not in meter. Let those who are writing not in meter > get the new name for their new writing, leaving "poetry" for > writing in meter. Let them earn the cultural weight and social > significance of the work they do by doing the work they do > consistently and well. On 1 Mar 2005 at 17:43, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Marcus, isn't the term 'cultural weight'very much 'value-laden'? > Certainly 'social significance' is. So your word 'poetry' (meaning > writing in meter) is not the cold, emotionless definitionyou were > asserting it to be in oh so many posts. Finnegan My point is that the people who write in non-meter texts but still call their work "poems" call them "poems" BECAUSE they feel that there is cultural weight and social significance to being a poet and writing poems. I'm advocating that poetry be used as only description, leaving the value-laden terms such as "good" or "bad" for example, to another, different discussion, where they belong. I don't say that there is no cultural weight or social significance to the term "poetry" or "poet" or "poem" -- I simply say let the people who would write in non-meter texts earn their own cultural weight and social significance by doing what they do well and consistently INSTEAD OF merely making an unwarranted claim on the cultural weight and social significance that the terms in question enjoy. Marcus From marcus Tue Mar 1 19:52:31 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:52:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? [Was: Ictus] In-Reply-To: <002e01c51eb0$d7f17490$3f9f9951@Robin> Message-ID: <4224C7FF.29319.51B34F@localhost> > Marcus said: > > Poetry is the time-honored way to distinguish writing in meter from > > writing not in meter. > On 1 Mar 2005 at 22:48, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Actually, pace Marcus, the time-honoured way (from Aristotle to Sir > Philip Sidney) to define poetry was the (effective) use of metaphor. That is another time-honored way, of course. > The earlier (till the 18thC?) distinctions tended to between > poetry/history/philosophy [not poetry/prose], the later two of which > could be written in either metred or non-metred lines, but writing in > metre, per se, didn't make a work "poetry", either in descriptive or > judgemental terms.< The people who were writing in meter were trying to use the cultural weight and social significance of writing in meter to add oomph to their opinions. There was a weight and a significance to the distinction between meter and non-meter writing, even though it was not held to be the only distinction between poetry and non-poetry. I'm proposing that using that distinction as the necessary distinction between poetry and prose has a lot of merit and that the distinction has long been recognized. What counted as "meter" has changed a good bit, too. The traditional notion of "poet" included dramatists. We have to account for the differences in meaning. What's important is that the difference between writing in meter and not writing in meter is historically easy to trace, has had great significance, and then was given even greater significance by those who wanted to "break" the meter in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Meter has been the point d'appui; my view is to let the free versists go their own way off into whatever they want to call what they do other than "poetry", because they insist on writing non- meterered texts. My other point is that the reason they don't want to go their own way is that they are pretenders to the title: they want the social significance and cultural weight attendant on being called "a poet" but they won't write within the tradition. They want to dictate that what being "a poet" means is doing what they do. They have no more respect for "metaphor" than they have for "meter". > So Marcus' allegation that metre in itself is enough to separate > poetry from prose is a-historic. No, it's not. Meter has always given the presumption of poetry to a work, even if it's been judged on other grounds not to be. That's the core of the verse/poetry distinction, which I think is an unnecessary one because it's a distinction without a difference if we accept the term "poetry" to distinguish one mode of writing from "prose", another mode of writing. It is only when people want to use "poetry" as a value-laden term that we get into trouble; only when "poetry" means "the good stuff" are there problems. My point is to get away from that altogether. Let's quit using "poetry" as a value-laden term, and use it instead as merely a descriptive one, and encourage the free versists to call themselves something of their own choosing other than "poet" if they don't like "prose writer". > (Also, of course, as metred writing tends, in virtually every culture, > to predate non-metered writing, it can get murky. There was a time > when *all* "writing" [sic -- I'm sure people didn't before a certain > point invariable *speak* in metre] was in metre, so how then did you > distinguish poetry from non-poetry? )< The same way we distinguish a quotation of a poem in conversation from the conversation itself. We use different tones, mannerisms, body language, and the like. Marcus From JforJames Tue Mar 1 20:22:41 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:22:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus Message-ID: <76.4df3952e.2f566f61@aol.com> In a message dated 3/1/2005 6:59:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > I don't say that there is no cultural weight or social significance > to the term "poetry" or "poet" or "poem" -- I simply say let the > people who would write in non-meter texts earn their own cultural > weight and social significance by doing what they do well and > consistently INSTEAD OF merely making an unwarranted claim on the > cultural weight and social significance that the terms in question > enjoy. > > Or let the poets vested solely in meter hold on to and defend their turf against all comers. Maybe the shelvers are lazy at the library I visit and at my local bookstore, but somehow a lot of other 'poetry' has broken through. To the walls, to the walls! Throw up those bookcases to buttress the badly breached battlements. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Mar 1 20:28:09 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:28:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus References: <200503011803.j21I35df015376@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <019f01c51ec7$182525a0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Marcus says: >>>poetry is a ...desciption of a mode of writing. > The problem is that most everybody else has one or more different > definitions. Since most everybody else won't give up his/her > definition, Marcus needs a new word for his definition - maybe > "metery." No value judgment implied, just a description of a mode > of writing. > > Richard Marcus should accept this. After all, he's certainly not trying to get the term "poetry" used only for the kind of stuff he writes because there is cultural weight and social significance to being a poet and writing poetry. --Bob G. From JforJames Tue Mar 1 20:33:15 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:33:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Italian poet Mario Luzi dies Message-ID: <1e1.370d9047.2f5671db@aol.com> http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/03/01/Arts/luziobit050301.html Italian poet Mario Luzi dies Last Updated Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:24:14 EST CBC Arts FLORENCE - Thousands gathered in Florence Tuesday to honour the memory of Mario Luzi, considered one of the greatest Italian poets of the 20th century. According to a government spokesperson, the 90-year-old Luzi died at his home early Monday morning. "With Mario Luzi, Italy loses one of its purest, clearest, strongest voices," Rome Mayor Walter Veltroni said in a statement. Culture Minister Giuliano Urbani mourned the loss of "a man who was particularly gentle, with great sensitivity." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Mar 1 20:51:54 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 01:51:54 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? [Was: Ictus] References: <4224C7FF.29319.51B34F@localhost> Message-ID: <00e701c51eca$69c0d780$3f9f9951@Robin> Marcus said: > The people who were writing in meter were trying to use the cultural > weight and social significance of writing in meter to add oomph to > their opinions. No they bloody weren't. (At least, not before the Romantics. Not before Erasmus Darwin's _The Sex Life of Flowers_.) Simply, up to a certain -- very late -- point, metrical writing was the +default+. This changed *relatively* late , to begin. > There was a weight and a significance to the > distinction between meter and non-meter writing, even though it was > not held to be the only distinction between poetry and non-poetry. Yup -- but up till late, the *major* significant of the poetry-vs-prose distinction was metaphor rather than metre. Not the only, sure, but for a couple of millenia the *central* distinction between "poetry" and "prose" was metaphor rather than metre. > I'm proposing that using that distinction as the necessary > distinction between poetry and prose has a lot of merit and that the > distinction has long been recognized. You can argue this till hell freezes over, but while today -- 2005 -- you can suggest poetry = metre, with a degree of (though I'd disagree) plausibility, this is either (a) a-historical // or (b) post-1700. Marcus, you really *can't* call The Weight Of History to your aid here. Robin (As today is -- or was -- my birthday, and I'm reluctantly realising that I'm within spitting-distance of qualifying for a Free (UK) Bus Pass, one thing that no one seems to trip over is the metre/meter UK/US spelling distinction. This seems to be oddly pelucid ... I say tomato, you say tomatoe ... Mibee there's hope for us all yet. R.) From Thom424 Tue Mar 1 21:01:20 2005 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:01:20 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20What=20is=20poetry=3F=A0=20[?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Was:=20Ictus]?= Message-ID: <24.6bbfc9e4.2f567870@aol.com> good day for poetry birthdays, robin. you're in good company! robert hass howard nemerov richard wilbur robert lowell and that prose interloper, ralph ellison what a great party! thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Mar 1 21:19:06 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 02:19:06 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_What_is_poetry=3F=A0_=5BWas:_Ictus=5D?= References: <24.6bbfc9e4.2f567870@aol.com> Message-ID: <010e01c51ece$366608c0$3f9f9951@Robin> << good day for poetry birthdays, robin. you're in good company! robert hass howard nemerov richard wilbur robert lowell and that prose interloper, ralph ellison what a great party! >> Just wish I was younger -- *much* younger. :-( Nice to share a birthday with Richard Wilbur, but. [Nice American Formalist, not that I don't admire the rest, Lowell 'specially, and even-though-he-wrote-prose Ellison.] Didn't know *that* about Wilbur. Ta. {Cheers me up, that, ever so little ...} ... but it would be a slow party -- no girls. Robin From: thom tammaro moorhead, mn From bobgrumman Tue Mar 1 21:19:23 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:19:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? [Was: Ictus] References: <4224C7FF.29319.51B34F@localhost> Message-ID: <022201c51ece$40880740$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > My point is to get away from that altogether. Let's quit using > "poetry" as a value-laden term, and use it instead as merely a > descriptive one, and encourage the free versists to call themselves > something of their own choosing other than "poet" if they don't like > "prose writer". A huge problem with this is that all free versists are poets except the few who have never written formal verse. I, myself, am a poet by Marcus's standards because I've written a dozen or so sonnets, some forty conventional haiku that have been published in haiku magazines (though I don't consider syllabic verse to be metrical verse, myself), a few ballads and maybe twenty or thirty formal poems in various shapes. I've also written two full-length plays in blank verse and many dramatic scenes and one-acts in blank verse. Why would I or any other free versist who has done formal verse argue for the acceptance of free verse as poetry for what I'd call statooznikal reasons (desire for status) if he already had that status by virtue of his having written formal verse? (Didn't someone say that Williams wrote some formal verse?) I also wonder what evidence Marcus has that most of us who call free verse a form of poetry do not do so simply because we sincerely feel that to be the aptest way to describe it? Aside from my testimony that that is why I call free verse poetry. --Bob G. From JforJames Tue Mar 1 21:54:09 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:54:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] terms of disagreement Message-ID: <8c.21d72156.2f5684d1@aol.com> from James Feibleman from "Charles Sanders Pierce on Technical Style," the quotes are CS Pierce's? Definition is the primary requisite of the proper use of language by any special science, such as philosophy aims to be. To fail in this regard with respect to any important term is to treat "a verbal definition as doctrine." (That's to abet Marcus' hard & fast position.) The secondary requisite is the use of new terms. "?the philosophist must be encouraged-yea, and required-to coin new terms to express such new scientific concepts as he may discover, just as his chemical and biological brethren are expected to do"; "he who introduces a new conception into philosophy is under an obligation to invent acceptable terms to express it ?furthermore?once a conception has been supplied with suitable and sufficient words for its expression, no other _technical_ terms denoting the same things, considered in the same relations, should be countenanced." "For in order that philosophy should become a successful science, it must, like biology, have its own vocabulary." ? "The ideal terminology will differ somewhat for different sciences. The case of philosophy is very peculiar in that it has positive need of popular words in popular senses-not as its own language (as it has too unusually used those words), but as objects of its study. It thus has a peculiar need for language distinct and detached from common speech, such a language as Aristotle, the scholastics, and Kant endeavored to supply, while Hegel endeavored to destroy it. It is good economy for philosophy to provide itself with a vocabulary so outlandish that loose thinkers shall not be tempted to borrow its words." (hence Pierce's neologism, "Pragmaticism"; and that quote is for Bob.) Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Mar 1 21:59:20 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 02:59:20 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? [Was: Ictus] -- Scansion References: <4224C7FF.29319.51B34F@localhost> <00e701c51eca$69c0d780$3f9f9951@Robin> Message-ID: <012501c51ed3$d53302f0$3f9f9951@Robin> From: "Robin Hamilton" Quoting myself: > Mibee there's hope for us all yet. Look, that's not unmetrical -- you can scan it as: X / X / X X / / ... two iambics and a lesser ionic ascending. Cut me some slack, bros and sis, yesterday was my 97th birthday and the bullet I took in my left thigh in the 1905 Boer war still pains when the wind changes. The Wee M'Greegor [Veteran of The Great Patriotic War] Joking aside, the Scots have long memories -- my grandfather on my father's side was a scab in the 1926 Strike, running a tram in Glasgow. Something that even now I find it difficult to live down. :-( THE ENGLISH POISONED JOHN MCLEAN!!!! From Kent.Johnson Tue Mar 1 23:03:54 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:03:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? Message-ID: >Meter has always given the presumption of poetry to a work, even if it's been judged on other grounds not to be. Marcus, seriously now, for a moment, at least: Aside from the fact that the assumption underlying your "always" clause above has been under steadily increasing suspicion and challenge for a century and a half, all of us here *know* that meter has been around for ages (even if its definitions and the strictnesses of its applications have varied dramatically across cultures and times-- a shaky and shifting spectrum of "description," which your very dogmatic division of species seems unfit to account for). And few here, so far as I can tell, are opposed to meter on grounds of principle, in the sense, that is, of believing that "free verse"--or any other kind of poetry-- is innately superior as vehicle of poetic statement to regularly metered language: Nearly all of us have read the classics and love them. Some of us "non-metrists" even make occasional, tactical use of meter and old forms and do so, perhaps, to fairly competent and pleasing effect. (True, sometimes the pleasure is in the collage, in the little luminescences of anachronism which for some have a beauty of their own. But this is another issue.) But the major point is this, and you'll forgive me if I sound, ur, preachy: All things undergo change (a concept as old as meter, of course!) and as things change, the old lives on, continues to survive alongside the new, fights for restoration to the unchallenged place it once had, is absorbed contradictorily into its antithesis, even *shapes* the new, which in its turn resists being shaped by the old, attempts to deny the presence of what it has absorbed, and so on and so forth. At a certain point, even where the vestiges of the old order prominently survive, even when those vestiges still enjoy the symbolic trappings of the ancien regime, so to speak, it becomes very unrealistic to think that one can go back to the cleanly stratified and regulated way things used to be before messy, discomfiting pluralism came on the scene. Take England, for an example. In fact, here is something I think you might want to consider. The extension of poetic genre beyond the traditional vestments of meter or codified form is a decidedly pervasive, cross-cultural phenomenon, one that arises fairly simultaneously in numerous national poetries with the onset of modernism: From Japan (prosodic battles in Japan are fascinating, probably most so in haiku, that most rigorously traditional of forms, where now hallowed poets read by millions began to break age-old rules early in the 20th century, and where traditionalists mounted [and still mount] arguments of generic exclusion almost identical to yours), to Latin America, to all European poetries, the Middle East, and elsewhere. Over the past century, in all these places and languages, and in a rich variety of ways, the old forms have been raided, satirized, extended, centaurized, ripped inside out, or left behind for other kinds of formal experiment. In other words, what you bemoan is a fact of history, a process of transformation that has been underway for a good long while, and which is driven by causes much deeper and processes more universal than you would have it with your very simplistic and quasi-ad hominem attacks on the fraudulent and free-loading "free versifiers" of our day. Many of these poets, Marcus, who have chosen to write in what you call "prose," are in fact very serious about poetic form (are you not aware of this?) and have set out to investigate and push the art of language into new areas--ones, in somewhat poignant irony, that are grandly more distant from "prose" than the kinds of poetry on whose behalf you polemicize (and could you not be aware of this, too?). For them, the most serious of them, anyway, form reveals itself or is revealed in manifold ways. Metered language is one way, of course, but only one. It's something now to be studied, respected, and, yes, still also practiced (including subversively). But the time when it could define "what poetry is," if there really ever was a time, has long since passed, because poetry, to put it simply, has shown that it is too big, as total genre, to be contained inside relations of production governed by arbitrary patterns of stresses and pauses. Whether you like it or not. Those who try to deny this are something akin to monarchists in the park at rush hour, shaking their fists for the return of the King and the landed gentry. "This is the way it was for centuries!" they shout. They are poignant in their earnestness, sometimes impressive in their knowledge of the lore, but not, finally, to be taken very seriously. I think you should stop spending so much time defining what is what for the rest of us and write more poetry--there's a lot yet to be written. Kent From kpaul Tue Mar 1 23:47:04 2005 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:47:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? [Was: Ictus] In-Reply-To: <022201c51ece$40880740$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <4224C7FF.29319.51B34F@localhost> <022201c51ece$40880740$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050301234630.B5582@kpaul.spinweb.net> some poets never write a line. see rimbaud in the latter years. that young man 'got it' i think. and i don't just mean the gold and syphillis... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> My point is to get away from that altogether. Let's quit using >> "poetry" as a value-laden term, and use it instead as merely a >> descriptive one, and encourage the free versists to call themselves >> something of their own choosing other than "poet" if they don't like >> "prose writer". > > A huge problem with this is that all free versists are poets except the few > who have never written formal verse. I, myself, am a poet by Marcus's > standards because I've written a dozen or so sonnets, some forty conventional > haiku that have been published in haiku magazines (though I don't consider > syllabic verse to be metrical verse, myself), a few ballads and maybe twenty > or thirty formal poems in various shapes. I've also written two full-length > plays in blank verse and many dramatic scenes and one-acts in blank verse. > Why would I or any other free versist who has done formal verse argue for the > acceptance of free verse as poetry for what I'd call statooznikal reasons > (desire for status) if he already had that status by virtue of his having > written formal verse? (Didn't someone say that Williams wrote some formal > verse?) > > I also wonder what evidence Marcus has that most of us who call free verse a > form of poetry do not do so simply because we sincerely feel that to be the > aptest way to describe it? Aside from my testimony that that is why I call > free verse poetry. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Wed Mar 2 06:28:12 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:28:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] terms of disagreement References: <8c.21d72156.2f5684d1@aol.com> Message-ID: <004501c51f1a$eb5368d0$8db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> from James Feibleman from "Charles Sanders Pierce on Technical Style," the quotes are CS Pierce's? Definition is the primary requisite of the proper use of language by any special science, such as philosophy aims to be. To fail in this regard with respect to any important term is to treat "a verbal definition as doctrine." (That's to abet Marcus' hard & fast position.) The secondary requisite is the use of new terms. "?the philosophist must be encouraged-yea, and required-to coin new terms to express such new scientific concepts as he may discover, just as his chemical and biological brethren are expected to do"; "he who introduces a new conception into philosophy is under an obligation to invent acceptable terms to express it ?furthermore?once a conception has been supplied with suitable and sufficient words for its expression, no other _technical_ terms denoting the same things, considered in the same relations, should be countenanced." "For in order that philosophy should become a successful science, it must, like biology, have its own vocabulary." ? "The ideal terminology will differ somewhat for different sciences. The case of philosophy is very peculiar in that it has positive need of popular words in popular senses-not as its own language (as it has too unusually used those words), but as objects of its study. It thus has a peculiar need for language distinct and detached from common speech, such a language as Aristotle, the scholastics, and Kant endeavored to supply, while Hegel endeavored to destroy it. It is good economy for philosophy to provide itself with a vocabulary so outlandish that loose thinkers shall not be tempted to borrow its words." (hence Pierce's neologism, "Pragmaticism"; and that quote is for Bob.) Finnegan Yes, I recognized it as such. Thanks, James. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Mar 2 06:42:02 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:42:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? References: Message-ID: <005801c51f1c$d9faba00$8db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Sorry, but I need yet again to go back to my basic argument that lineation, not meter, is the defining principal of poetry, for I think I have a new way of supporting that. It is to say, simply, that lineation is the ONLY *ultimate* characteristic that poetry has always had (on the page--and, via pauses, in speech, in my view) that prose NEVER has. Yes, prose does not have meter, but meter is not an ultimate characteristic, for it can be reduced to repeated feet.and a pattern of lineation, the first of which prose can, and sometimes does, have. The intentions of poetry, including free verse, have always been different from prose, too, and there are many other differences between prose and poety. Some day, I hope to list them, as well. --Bob G. From marcus Wed Mar 2 08:46:11 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:46:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? [Was: Ictus] In-Reply-To: <00e701c51eca$69c0d780$3f9f9951@Robin> Message-ID: <42257D53.17072.15DBDB@localhost> > Marcus said: > > The people who were writing in meter were trying to use the cultural > > weight and social significance of writing in meter to add oomph to > > their opinions. > Robin Hamilton wrote: > Simply, up to a certain -- very late -- point, metrical writing was > the +default+. That's right -- and people were using metrical writing to add oomph to their opinions, instead of writing in vernacular prose. > > There was a weight and a significance to the > > distinction between meter and non-meter writing, even though it was > > not held to be the only distinction between poetry and non-poetry. > Yup -- but up till late, the *major* significant of the > poetry-vs-prose distinction was metaphor rather than metre. The whole notion of fiction as imitation of life, of fiction as metaphor, is different from the notion we hold of metaphor now. Because playwrights worked in a medium where the stage was held to be a metaphor for life they got a free pass to being called poets, irrespective of whether they wrote in meter or not, but that looks to me like an exception rather than a rule to the meter/non-meter distinction. Meter was there, distinct from prose, and if poets held the notion of fiction-as-metaphor or stage-as-metaphor to be the major significant they still made their metaphors in meter. Meter was consistently an important and significant element in the distinction between poetry and prose. > Not the only, sure, but for a couple of millenia the *central* > distinction between "poetry" and "prose" was metaphor rather than > metre. To argue that "metaphor" was the test is to argue more or less equivocally, to suggest that our notion of metaphor as a comparison or a contrast within a work of two things to illuminate one or the other of those things is the same as the ancient notion of metaphor as fiction, or metaphor as the stage itself. > You can argue this till hell freezes over, but while today -- 2005 -- > you can suggest poetry = metre, with a degree of (though I'd > disagree) plausibility, this is either (a) a-historical // or (b) > post-1700. Post-1700 the distinction became more generally accepted as the notion of "metaphor" changed from metaphor-as-fiction or metaphor-as- stage to metaphor-as-comparison/contrast. Instead of thinking of fiction itself, or as drama itself, as a metaphor for life itself, as the folks who held "poetry is metaphor" did, we now think of "metaphor" as a more technical term for a specific rhetorical tool. What seems a-historical to me is to insist that the very different senses of "metaphor" mean the same thing. What the ancients called metaphor in the context of "What is poetry?" we call fiction and drama in the context of "What is art?" Marcus From marcus Wed Mar 2 09:01:42 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:01:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: <005801c51f1c$d9faba00$8db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <422580F6.22332.240D21@localhost> Bob Grumman wrote: > Sorry, but I need yet again to go back to my basic argument that > lineation, not meter, is the defining principal of poetry, for I think > I have a new way of supporting that. It is to say, simply, that > lineation is the ONLY *ultimate* characteristic that poetry has always > had (on the page--and, via pauses, in speech, in my view) that prose > NEVER has. But this is simply not the case. In metrical writing in eras where there was a shortage of writing materials, or where writing materials were recalcitrant, poetry is not lineated. The way to tell the poetry from the accounting texts is by the meter. Bob Grumman wrote: > Yes, prose does not have meter, but meter is not an > ultimate characteristic, for it can be reduced to repeated feet.and a > pattern of lineation, the first of which prose can, and sometimes > does, have.< Meter is an intentional element, not an accidental one. One of the charms of some poetry is the way the meter seems to be "natural" or "speech-like" or even like prose, while still maintaining the meter. It's simply not the case that, because some poetry seems to have no meter, so well-done is its meter, and some prose seems to have meter by accident, prose can have meter. Meter is an intentional element, not an accidental one. Bob Grumman wrote: > The intentions of poetry, including free verse, have always been > different from prose, too, and there are many other differences > between prose and poety. The major intention of poetry is to distinguish itself from prose so that it demands the audience's best attention. Meter made that demand, and helped make what was said memorable. Marcus From marcus Wed Mar 2 09:35:21 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:35:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <422588D9.9511.42DD30@localhost> Kent Johnson wrote: > ... all of us here *know* that meter has been around for ages (even > if its definitions and the strictnesses of its applications have > varied dramatically across cultures and times-- a shaky and shifting > spectrum of "description," which your very dogmatic division of > species seems unfit to account for).< The notion of meter is nothing like as shaky and shifting as the notion of "metaphor", though, which is its main competition as the crucial element to distinguish prose from poetry. There are lots of kinds of meters across lots of languages, but the variety of meters across the variety of languages argues strongly that meter is the thing that most consistently distinguishes what each language's culture regards as poetry from what it regards as prose or ordinary language use. Kent Johnson wrote: > And few here, so far as I can > tell, are opposed to meter on grounds of principle, in the sense, that > is, of believing that "free verse"--or any other kind of poetry-- is > innately superior as vehicle of poetic statement to regularly metered > language< It is my understanding that that is exactly what free versists do hold, however inarticulately in most cases. Grumman holds, for example, that free verse is better simply because it's newer; he cites the Fosbury Flop as evidence that newer is better, even though he can give no evidence whatever of a standard in poetry of better and worse like that in the high jump of how high the bar is placed. The same applies to the other theorists of the free verse and other avant garde techniques: the goal was, and has been, to "break the pentameter", to discard meter altogether because the new techniques were held to be better techniques. > Nearly all of us have read the classics and love them. Some > of us "non-metrists" even make occasional, tactical use of meter and > old forms and do so, perhaps, to fairly competent and pleasing effect.< Sometimes novelists create little bits of poetry for their characters, too. Does that make them poets as well? The use of non- metrical techniques simply seems to me to make non-metrists prose writers, as novelists are. Possibly novelists have read the classics in poetry and love them, too, but a good education and the occasional bit of meter doesn't make anyone a poet. Kent Johnson wrote: > ... All things undergo change (a concept as old as meter, of > course!) and as things change, the old lives on, continues to survive > alongside the new, fights for restoration to the unchallenged place it > once had, is absorbed contradictorily into its antithesis, even > *shapes* the new, which in its turn resists being shaped by the old, > attempts to deny the presence of what it has absorbed, and so on and > so forth. At a certain point, even where the vestiges of the old order > prominently survive, even when those vestiges still enjoy the symbolic > trappings of the ancien regime, so to speak, it becomes very > unrealistic to think that one can go back to the cleanly stratified > and regulated way things used to be before messy, discomfiting > pluralism came on the scene.< Aha -- a metaphor. Do you claim, therefore, on the ancient grounds, that that is a poem? I hope you don't, and I wouldn't accept the claim if you did, because poetry is an intentional activity, not an accidental one. Kent Johnson wrote: > ... what you bemoan is a fact of > history, a process of transformation that has been underway for a good > long while, and which is driven by causes much deeper and processes > more universal than you would have it< You know, this would be a good argument if I were trying to say that people ought not write "free verse" or experiment with any kind of avant garde technique _at all_, but that is not, of course, what I say. I only say that we should reserve the notion of "poet", "poetry", and "poem" for writing in meter, and call all that other writing something else, something more appropriate to its intentions and being. Kent Johnson wrote: > ... Many of these poets, Marcus, who have chosen to write in what you call > "prose," are in fact very serious about poetic form (are you not aware > of this?) and have set out to investigate and push the art of language > into new areas -- ones, in somewhat poignant irony, that are > grandly more distant from "prose" than the kinds of poetry on whose > behalf you polemicize (and could you not be aware of this, too?). < I'm aware of the claim; I don't see any evidence that it's true. Once you stretch the notion of "form" out to accommodate anything that anyone says it is you've really abandoned the notion of form altogether. Besides, this substitution of "form" for "meter" is a bit of rhetorical trickery designed to try to pretend that form and meter are the same when they're not. As for whether the experiments you refer to are distant from prose or not, distance from prose does not make something poetry. Mathematics is distant from prose, but it's not poetry, for example. > ... But the time when it could define > "what poetry is," if there really ever was a time, has long since > passed, because poetry, to put it simply, has shown that it is too > big, as total genre, to be contained inside relations of production > governed by arbitrary patterns of stresses and pauses.< This, once again, is using "poetry" as a value-laden term, trying to say that poetry is the good stuff, and to claim the title of "poetry" for anything anyone says it is in order to allow people who can't write in meter to be called "poets" anyway. The point I'm making is that "poetry" is a relatively small pond, defined by metrical bounds, and that there is lots of room outside the metrical bounds for everyone to play as they please -- but not as poets. Outside the metrical bounds, and the metrical bounds are larger than you seem to think, is the world of prose. Why struggle so hard to try to claim the title of "poet" or "poetry" or "poem" if there is not a value to that claim, to that title? If it were really the no big deal you are trying to make it seem, why not simply call those non-metrical productions "prose" or something else other than "poetry", and be done with it? Non-metrical productions are nothing like metrical ones, after all; and the claim that non- metrical productions should be called "poems" or "poetry" and their producers "poets" when there is no significant similarity between metrical and non-metrical productions, seems to be simply a matter of an attempt to hijack unearned cultural weight and social significance. Marcus From bobgrumman Wed Mar 2 09:57:24 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:57:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? References: <422580F6.22332.240D21@localhost> Message-ID: <010d01c51f38$24e98300$8db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob Grumman wrote: >> Sorry, but I need yet again to go back to my basic argument that >> lineation, not meter, is the defining principal of poetry, for I think >> I have a new way of supporting that. It is to say, simply, that >> lineation is the ONLY *ultimate* characteristic that poetry has always >> had (on the page--and, via pauses, in speech, in my view) that prose >> NEVER has. > > But this is simply not the case. In metrical writing in eras where > there was a shortage of writing materials, or where writing materials > were recalcitrant, poetry is not lineated. The way to tell the poetry > from the accounting texts is by the meter. I would argue that this poetry was lineated in speech, and--as you say--indicated in the crowded writing. That is, the meter said, "here is where a line ends." So I'm saying that lineation is having line-breaks, whether explicitly shown or not, in texts. > Bob Grumman wrote: >> Yes, prose does not have meter, but meter is not an >> ultimate characteristic, for it can be reduced to repeated feet.and a >> pattern of lineation, the first of which prose can, and sometimes >> does, have.< > > Meter is an intentional element, not an accidental one. One of the > charms of some poetry is the way the meter seems to be "natural" or > "speech-like" or even like prose, while still maintaining the meter. > It's simply not the case that, because some poetry seems to have no > meter, so well-done is its meter, and some prose seems to have meter > by accident, prose can have meter. Meter is an intentional element, > not an accidental one. I believe prose texts have been intentionally written in meter (defining meter as simply the use of repeated feet). Certainly, they could be. It shouldn't matter if poetry is the defined by the use of meter. If you go on to make your definition "intentional use of meter," you seriously weaken your definition since there have to be many instances of texts whose authors intentions are unknown. In fact, certain uneducated poets write poems that are emphatically metric without they're knowing that's what they're doing. > Bob Grumman wrote: >> The intentions of poetry, including free verse, have always been >> different from prose, too, and there are many other differences >> between prose and poety. > > The major intention of poetry is to distinguish itself from prose so > that it demands the audience's best attention. Meter made that > demand, and helped make what was said memorable. > > Marcus I disagree. I say that the main intention of poetry is to cause an aesthetic experience as opposed to the main intention of prose, which is to convey information. Poetry does this mainly through the use of metaphor, but also through verbal music, among many other techniques, most of them brought into significant use only recently. --Bob G. From cstroffo Wed Mar 2 10:42:00 2005 From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:42:00 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? Message-ID: <200503021520.j22FKfhV310314@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> why is that so either-or? can't you hear the rhythm, feel the rhythm manipulate and control the rhythm but also let it take you for a ride-- boom diddy boom do do da da da do boom diddy boom de de de de de ---------- >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: "Bob Grumman" , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? >Date: Wed, Mar 2, 2005, 6:01 AM > > Meter is an intentional element, > not an accidental one. From m.peverett Wed Mar 2 10:53:20 2005 From: m.peverett (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:53:20 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: <422588D9.9511.42DD30@localhost> References: <422588D9.9511.42DD30@localhost> Message-ID: <1109778800.4225e17052eff@webmail.ukonline.net> I think I've already said all I can say about this debate. What I really think is basically what Marcel Duchamp said in that quote about "if someone says it's art, it's art." Regarding the specifics, there are twenty arguments for rejecting Marcus's proposal, but the killing one is what Bob said about six messages back, that it's totally impractical. e.g. Karin Boye is in many ways a traditional poet for her time. (She was also a novelist.) She published five volumes of what everyone but Marcus is content to call "poetry". The first three were predominantly metrical - maybe about 80% - the last two are about half-and-half between free verse and metrical. Some of her greatest (what the rest of us call) poems are metrical, others not. A very typical biography like this would be almost inexpressible in Balesian English. "Boye's first collection of mixed-poetry-and-short-prose was published in 1922... etc." It would tell a perfectly spurious story in which distinctions are made between different works by authors who themselves saw none. (i.e. Boye called all of these things by the same word, "dikter"). In any account of literary history the Balesian would constantly have to resort to expressions like "what the people of that era thought of as poems". And to make all of this even more futile, the perfectly good word "verse" already exists to do the (occasionally useful) work that Marcus wants "poetry" to do. To be fair, I think Bob's lineation proposal is useless too. Both ultimately attempt to apply formal definitions, and seize on conditions that happen to be locally prevalent from our own perspective. There is no requirement to do this since the word "poem" has a very clear genealogy, a sociological and historical meaning through human history. Sometimes, perhaps predominantly, I think the usage alludes to the sociological and cultural role played by poetry, not to any feature of its form. But whatever aspect is uppermost in the speaker's mind, there is inevitably change over time; my great-grandfather would have envisaged "Sir John Moore at Corunna", and I envisage something like Sharon Olds. In fact the historical continuity of "poetry" (though with change through time) is itself such an important fact about the world we know that we require a word for it, and what better word than itself? But words which arrive with such splendid etymological baggage cannot easily be re- converted into nimble analytical tools. For that, it's probably better to start again. ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From Kent.Johnson Wed Mar 2 11:14:09 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:14:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? Message-ID: >The same applies to the other theorists of the free verse and other avant garde techniques: the goal was, and has been, to "break the pentameter", to discard meter altogether because the new techniques were held to be better techniques.< This is true in some cases, particularly in the 60's, in wake of the New Criticism, where a feature of the reaction was to make sweeping ideological dismissals of traditional prosody. In the U.S., this attitude mainly came from the more prosaic, less formally inclined tendencies of the "new" poetries: the Deep Image current, for example, and the pervasive 70's-80's narrative "workshop poetry" it spawned. But this is only part of the picture, and tendencies of the "New American" poetries, which looked back to the radical modernism of early century, hardly had a punkish attitude toward the tradition. Pound's call to break the pentameter and "make it new" is not a dismissal of meter's legitimacy, it is a call to push the the poetic function into new areas. Surely you don't claim that *Pound*, swooning fan of the Provencal and Anglo-Saxon, was against meters! You seem to believe, Marcus, that any poetry not written in a handily recognizable sequence of stresses should be lumped together under the category of "prose." What you don't seem to realize (this is what I gather from your posts, anyway) is that there has been a tendency of experiment in Anglo-American poetry (and other languages, of course) that, while not bound by traditional meters, has been guided by a rigorously formal outlook and practice. And this has led to poetic expressions much further removed from prose effects than, for example, New Formalist writings. >I'm aware of the claim; I don't see any evidence that it's true. Once you stretch the notion of "form" out to accommodate anything that anyone says it is you've really abandoned the notion of form altogether.< No, I'm not saying anything goes. "Form," rather, is always in dispute. As in any art, it's when you legislate the protocols of "proper" poetic form that the life begins to go... Dixieland and Rag Time are great, inestimable contributions to jazz, and even though there are purists who argue passionately to the contrary, it's pretty clear that Jazz can't be reduced to them. >This, once again, is using "poetry" as a value-laden term, trying to say that poetry is the good stuff, and to claim the title of "poetry" for anything anyone says it is in order to allow people who can't write in meter to be called "poets" anyway.< I think most readers see that it is you who are using the term in a reductive and value-laden way! You say, at the end of your post, that those who don't write consistently in traditional meters haven't "earned" the "cultural weight and significance" of Poetry. What could be more value-laden that that? You keep making your claim, trying to lock into a positivistic box a huge and wooly thing, whose very nature, as we seem best able to determine after 2500 years, is to resist final definition. From halvard Wed Mar 2 11:29:49 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:29:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: <1109778800.4225e17052eff@webmail.ukonline.net> Message-ID: { I think I've already said all I can say about this debate. What I really think { is basically what Marcel Duchamp said in that quote about "if someone says { it's art, it's art." That's not exactly what Duchamp said. See below. Hal ""Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From halvard Wed Mar 2 11:31:53 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:31:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's something we can all agree on: Poetry is a six-letter word, whereas prose is merely a five-letter word. Hal "A discouraging number of reputable poets are sane beyond recall." --E. B. White Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From m.peverett Wed Mar 2 11:54:19 2005 From: m.peverett (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:54:19 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109782459.4225efbbe7d52@webmail.ukonline.net> Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously adapted M Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, his original statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art depends on a definition of artist. Quoting Halvard Johnson : > > { I think I've already said all I can say about this debate. What I really > think > { is basically what Marcel Duchamp said in that quote about "if someone > says > { it's art, it's art." > > That's not exactly what Duchamp said. See below. > > Hal ""Anything is art if an artist says it is." > --Marcel Duchamp > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From Kent.Johnson Wed Mar 2 11:55:30 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:55:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? Message-ID: Michael said: >And to make all of this even more futile, the perfectly good word "verse" already exists to do the (occasionally useful) work that Marcus wants "poetry" to do.< Presto! From halvard Wed Mar 2 12:00:39 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:00:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { Michael said: { { >And to make all of this even more futile, the perfectly good word { "verse" already exists to do the (occasionally useful) work that Marcus { wants "poetry" to do.< { { Presto! Which, of course, make "free verse" an oxymoron. But, hey, so is "jumbo shrimp." Hal From paul.lake Wed Mar 2 05:09:27 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 04:09:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants Message-ID: An interesting article about MacArthur "genius grants" in literature. The article says that data shows that the grants result in a radical DECREASE in literary output and quality. Paul Lake http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/296oqmgh.a sp --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From halvard Wed Mar 2 12:17:38 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:17:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm, so do Social Security, retirement, Alzheimer's, and, yep, death. Hal, who'd take a break if he got one of them genial grants { An interesting article about MacArthur "genius grants" in literature. The { article says that data shows that the grants result in a radical DECREASE in { literary output and quality. { { Paul Lake { { { http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/296oqmgh.a { sp { { --- { [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From MillB Wed Mar 2 12:27:33 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:27:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants Message-ID: <191.3a24dcc9.2f575185@aol.com> Interesting article. There is much to be questioned, though. >From personal example (not that I have won a half million dollar grant or anything, but), I have done my best work when I was the busiest (working two jobs, strapped for cash, etc.) And, when on a semester abroad (away from teaching and working) or during a grant year, what I tend to do best is synthesize. Like, in Prague, I wrote very little because I was too busy researching and "experiencing." However, after I returned home, I was very productive. Also, I question whether publication can be a measurement of productivity. Just because Ernest J. Gaines, (A Lesson Before Dying) has not published a novel (since his Genius Grant) does not mean that his creative life has been static: he might have any number of manuscripts finished or in progress. He might be teaching or traveling or feeding his mind in other ways? Cheers, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Wed Mar 2 13:42:27 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:42:27 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? or art, for that matter? Message-ID: <1c1.23a6cf8d.2f576313@aol.com> As with his ready-mades, Duchamp is being intentionally provocative, but he's not wrongheaded. (a) The artists assert the art. (He or she may be only asserting it privately, idiosyncratically. Then (b) the assertion is recognized as art or it is not. Duchamp is addressing 'a'; but 'b' must follow for art to be realized. Art, in certain way, only exists as a shared concept or a transaction between at least two people. (As it widens it scope of acceptance it increases its claim to the term 'art' , or 'poetry'.) Emily Dickinson's poetry became 'poetry' when some folks thought it worthwhile to save and then to publish her bundled sheaves. It didn't exist as art before finding its audience, however small at first. The history of the avant-garde is one of small cadre of individuals influencing the standard of "What is art?" at large. This may happen quickly in a revolutionary way or more gradually by infiltrating the culture slowly. Finnegan ; In a message dated 3/2/2005 11:54:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously adapted M Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, his original statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art depends on a definition of artist. Quoting Halvard Johnson : > > { I think I've already said all I can say about this debate. What I really > think > { is basically what Marcel Duchamp said in that quote about "if someone > says > { it's art, it's art." > > That's not exactly what Duchamp said. See below. > > Hal ""Anything is art if an artist says it is." > --Marcel Duchamp > Halvard Johnson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Wed Mar 2 06:57:12 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 05:57:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants In-Reply-To: <191.3a24dcc9.2f575185@aol.com> Message-ID: On 3/2/05 11:27 AM, "MillB at aol.com" wrote: > Interesting article. > > There is much to be questioned, though. > > From personal example (not that I have won a half million dollar grant or > anything, but), I have done my best work when I was the busiest (working two > jobs, strapped for cash, etc.) > > And, when on a semester abroad (away from teaching and working) or during a > grant year, what I tend to do best is synthesize. Like, in Prague, I wrote > very little because I was too busy researching and "experiencing." However, > after I returned home, I was very productive. > > Also, I question whether publication can be a measurement of productivity. > Just because Ernest J. Gaines, (A Lesson Before Dying) has not published a > novel (since his Genius Grant) does not mean that his creative life has been > static: he might have any number of manuscripts finished or in progress. He > might be teaching or traveling or feeding his mind in other ways? > > Cheers, > > Mill > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Mill, I know what you mean about fallow periods. A friend of mine who won the MacArthur some ten years ago would appear to have been relatively unproductive during his grant years, since he hasn?t published a book since winning it, but I know he?s been assiduously reading, researching, and writing some of the best poems of his life. Literary politics also play a part in who and what gets published when. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chezjewelweed Wed Mar 2 14:09:15 2005 From: chezjewelweed (Jewelweed) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:09:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants In-Reply-To: <191.3a24dcc9.2f575185@aol.com> References: <191.3a24dcc9.2f575185@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:27:33 EST, MillB at aol.com wrote: > Also, I question whether publication can be a measurement of productivity. > Just because Ernest J. Gaines, (A Lesson Before Dying) has not published a > novel (since his Genius Grant) does not mean that his creative life has been > static: he might have any number of manuscripts finished or in progress. He > might be teaching or traveling or feeding his mind in other ways? Exactly. On what data have they based this off-the-cuff conclusions? A quick count of books made on Amazon.com? Please. It sounds like nobody, not even the MacArthur Foundation, has followed up on any of the grantees to see what they are doing. If someone did, they might very well find surprising and interesting results. Cranking out a book isn't the only worthy goal-- I would rather wait awhile and see some real quality. My take on MacArthur is that it is a big reward, an affirmation, for work already done. What actually "makes" people productive is pretty elusive in any event, and I don't know how anyone could quantify that. For myself, limitations seem to be motivating for actually putting out the written work but the time spent simply on *being*, intangible though it may be, is what is really crucial. Some things in one's creative development cannot be tracked on a Gantt Chart. The years I spent with lots of free time on my hands were mostly wasted pursuing relationships of variable quality, frolicing on Greek beaches, exploring Turkey and Eastern Europe, learning to sail, and... not getting much measurable work done. I can't see any of that as "wasted time" though-- it was crucial in developing my vision, it made me who I am, and it gave me my edge. I also spent a lot of that time reading deeply, and going to graduate school. Now that I am shouldering a "serious" job with long, limiting hours, I am adamant about using the freetime I have for my writing, and I am producing. (My current partner, a very understanding sweetie, might forgive me for all this vanishing-into-my-study someday). There is a time and a place for everything. --Suzanne Burns From kpaul Wed Mar 2 14:52:02 2005 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:52:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050302145156.D8953@kpaul.spinweb.net> ;) thx, hal. -kpaul On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Here's something we can all agree on: > > Poetry is a six-letter word, whereas prose is merely > a five-letter word. > > Hal "A discouraging number of reputable poets > are sane beyond recall." > --E. B. White > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From shkodrov Wed Mar 2 15:04:37 2005 From: shkodrov (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:04:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? or art, for that matter? In-Reply-To: <1c1.23a6cf8d.2f576313@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050302200438.42835.qmail@web54602.mail.yahoo.com> Isn't the (b) you are talking about just marketing? "Realization" of art is brought to politics and marketing. Duchamp is trying to visualize this phenomenon. Think of Manzoni's *Merda d'artista*... art --> money --> shit but then... shit seen as art... IS art! And it doesn't matter if Marcus (or someone else!) agrees with it or not... R. JforJames at aol.com wrote: As with his ready-mades, Duchamp is being intentionally provocative, but he's not wrongheaded. (a) The artists assert the art. (He or she may be only asserting it privately, idiosyncratically. Then (b) the assertion is recognized as art or it is not. Duchamp is addressing 'a'; but 'b' must follow for art to be realized. Art, in certain way, only exists as a shared concept or a transaction between at least two people. (As it widens it scope of acceptance it increases its claim to the term 'art' , or 'poetry'.) Emily Dickinson's poetry became 'poetry' when some folks thought it worthwhile to save and then to publish her bundled sheaves. It didn't exist as art before finding its audience, however small at first. The history of the avant-garde is one of small cadre of individuals influencing the standard of "What is art?" at large. This may happen quickly in a revolutionary way or more gradually by infiltrating the culture slowly. Finnegan ; In a message dated 3/2/2005 11:54:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously adapted M Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, his original statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art depends on a definition of artist. Quoting Halvard Johnson : > > { I think I've already said all I can say about this debate. What I really > think > { is basically what Marcel Duchamp said in that quote about "if someone > says > { it's art, it's art." > > That's not exactly what Duchamp said. See below. > > Hal ""Anything is art if an artist says it is." > --Marcel Duchamp > Halvard Johnson _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Wed Mar 2 15:18:50 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:18:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: <1109782459.4225efbbe7d52@webmail.ukonline.net> References: Message-ID: <4225D95A.26615.4D603F@localhost> On 2 Mar 2005 at 16:54, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote: > Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously > adapted M Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, > his original statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art > depends on a definition of artist. Exactly -- something I've pointed out to Hal each time he brings this tired banality up, and something he shrugs off each time with a so what or a whatever. He pretends he's making an important distinction between what people think Duchamp says and what Duchamp says, but when you ask him what an artist is he'll say it's anyone who claims to be an artist -- which means that Hal's purported distinction between what Duchamp said and what Duchamp is thought to have said is irrelevant even to Hal. Marcus From marcus Wed Mar 2 15:26:56 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:26:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4225DB40.5359.54CA7C@localhost> > Michael said: > >And to make all of this even more futile, the perfectly good word > "verse" already exists to do the (occasionally useful) work that > Marcus wants "poetry" to do.< On 2 Mar 2005 at 10:55, Kent Johnson wrote: > Presto! This is wrong on the face of it, because ever since Quintillian people have been making disparaging comparisons of verse to poetry based on a misunderstanding of Aristotle. Aristotle says that poetry is something in addition to metered verse; Quintillian et al., right through to Eliot's essay on Kipling, disparage verse as something other than, even something antithetical to, poetry. Marcus From antrobin Wed Mar 2 15:33:07 2005 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:33:07 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: <4225DB40.5359.54CA7C@localhost> Message-ID: <077601c51f67$11682e60$cb3d1c40@Emily> So, Marcus, Quintillian, Sidney, Eliot, et al. are simply wrong? Sidney agrees with Aristotle that poetry is "making." It is invention, and it involves metaphor (which I won't rehash here in this small post). I'm not convinced that Aristotle says that poetry is restricted to writing in metrical verse--as I remember it's a bit more complicated than that. I don't have my books here, though, so I can't offer up evidence. In any case, though, why make Aristotle the governing authority here? He was certainly wrong about a lot of other things... Tony *********** This is wrong on the face of it, because ever since Quintillian people have been making disparaging comparisons of verse to poetry based on a misunderstanding of Aristotle. Aristotle says that poetry is something in addition to metered verse; Quintillian et al., right through to Eliot's essay on Kipling, disparage verse as something other than, even something antithetical to, poetry. Marcus _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus Wed Mar 2 15:14:02 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:14:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4225D83A.9529.48FA37@localhost> Marcus Bales wrote: >The same applies to the other theorists of the free verse and other > avant garde techniques: the goal was, and has been, to "break the > pentameter", to discard meter altogether because the new techniques > were held to be better techniques.< Kent Johnson wrote: > ... tendencies of the "New > American" poetries, which looked back to the radical modernism of > early century, hardly had a punkish attitude toward the tradition. > Pound's call to break the pentameter and "make it new" is not a > dismissal of meter's legitimacy, it is a call to push the the poetic > function into new areas. Surely you don't claim that *Pound*, swooning > fan of the Provencal and Anglo-Saxon, was against meters!< That's exactly what I think. His call, and FM Ford's and Amy Lowell's WCW's and even Eliot's was precisely to discard meters. They hoped, I'll admit, that they would discover or develop new meters -- but no such new meters were discovered or developed. I've read the manifestos and theories about free verse "meters", and a twistier collection of special pleading I haven't seen since I read Aquinas. > You seem to believe, Marcus, that any poetry not written in a handily > recognizable sequence of stresses should be lumped together under the > category of "prose." What you don't seem to realize (this is what I > gather from your posts, anyway) is that there has been a tendency of > experiment in Anglo-American poetry (and other languages, of course) > that, while not bound by traditional meters, has been guided by a > rigorously formal outlook and practice. And this has led to poetic > expressions much further removed from prose effects than, for example, > New Formalist writings. It would be pretty to think so. Got an example? Kent Johnson wrote: > ... I'm not saying anything goes. "Form," rather, is always in > dispute.< This is inappropriate substitution of "form" for "meter" in the discussion we're having. I make no arguments for or against form. You seem to be saying that you think "form" and "meter" are the same thing; I don't accept your substitution. Kent Johnson wrote: > As in any art, it's when you legislate the protocols of > "proper" poetic form that the life begins to go... Dixieland and Rag > Time are great, inestimable contributions to jazz, and even though > there are purists who argue passionately to the contrary, it's pretty > clear that Jazz can't be reduced to them.< Hell, "Rhapsody in Blue" was once jazz and is now classical if you let your categories get as fuzzy as all that. Much of this kind of confusion is the result of people getting all fuzzy about the mystic mythic value-laden-ness of their favorite subcategory. I'm trying to forestall that value-laden-ness by urging that we distinguish poetry from prose by the simple expedient of whether the work is in meter or not, much as I'd say that we distinguish jazz from other music as we distinguish improvisatory theater from written plays. Kent Johnson wrote: > I think most readers see that it is you who are using the term in a > reductive and value-laden way! You say, at the end of your post, that > those who don't write consistently in traditional meters haven't > "earned" the "cultural weight and significance" of Poetry. What could > be more value-laden that that?< I say that in the context of criticizing the value-laden-ness of the non-metric writer's insistence on claiming the title of Poet. I'm pointing out that the reason that such writers make that claim is because they value the title. My proposal is to take the title away from them precisely because they want it so much. Let them earn ther accolades by writing well in the way they write well, but call it something other than "poetry". Call it something other because to call it "poetry" is to cede the strategic ground before the discussion begins, much as calling the tuning up of the orchaestra "jazz" cedes all the important issues before the discussion begins. Kent Johnson wrote: > You keep making your claim, trying to > lock into a positivistic box a huge and wooly thing, whose very > nature, as we seem best able to determine after 2500 years, is to > resist final definition.< Not at all -- I want the discussion about what is good and bad about this or that writing to center on what's good and bad about it, not about what name it gets. To that end I'd like to make what name it gets a simple, mechanical matter that isn't hard to decide so that the real discussion, about what's valuable and what's not, and why, can begin. But so long as we start off with the notion that anything anyone writes is poetry if they say it is we're sunk when it comes to trying to figure out what is good or bad about that writing; what is worth spending time and effort on and what's not; what to recommend and what to ignore. The Special Olympics notion of poetry, that it's all good and just trying is enough and everyone gets a medal is demeaning to anyone who takes accomplishment seriously. Marcus From marcus Wed Mar 2 15:45:38 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:45:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: <077601c51f67$11682e60$cb3d1c40@Emily> References: <4225DB40.5359.54CA7C@localhost> Message-ID: <4225DFA2.911.65EB08@localhost> On 2 Mar 2005 at 12:33, Anthony Robinson wrote: > So, Marcus, Quintillian, Sidney, Eliot, et al. are simply wrong? > Sidney agrees with Aristotle that poetry is "making." It is invention, > and it involves metaphor (which I won't rehash here in this small > post). > I'm not convinced that Aristotle says that poetry is restricted to > writing in metrical verse--as I remember it's a bit more complicated > than that. I don't have my books here, though, so I can't offer up > evidence. In any case, though, why make Aristotle the governing > authority here? He was certainly wrong about a lot of other things... What I'm pointing out is that the position that distinguishes verse from prose, and disparages verse in the process, is a misunderstanding, a misinterpretation, and later a conflation of several misunderstandings. It is a view based on a mistake; to think that it must therefore be right because the mistake is an old one is as bad as to think that Aristotle must be right because his view is even older. I don't say that Aristotle says that poetry is restricted to writing in metrical writing; I say that Aristotle says that poetry is metrical writing plus other things, but Aristotle's intention was to define and defend what we now think of as "fiction", not "poetry" -- as his usages make pretty clear. Marcus From paul.lake Wed Mar 2 08:48:25 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:48:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Message-ID: A well done piece on the office of poet laureate and the current wearer of the laurels, Ted Kooser. Paul Lake http://www.cprw.com/SWilliams/kooser.htm --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From halvard Wed Mar 2 17:19:20 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:19:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: <4225D95A.26615.4D603F@localhost> Message-ID: { On 2 Mar 2005 at 16:54, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote: { > Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously { > adapted M Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, { > his original statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art { > depends on a definition of artist. { { Exactly -- something I've pointed out to Hal each time he brings this { tired banality up, and something he shrugs off each time with a so { what or a whatever. He pretends he's making an important distinction { between what people think Duchamp says and what Duchamp says, but { when you ask him what an artist is he'll say it's anyone who claims { to be an artist -- which means that Hal's purported distinction { between what Duchamp said and what Duchamp is thought to have said is { irrelevant even to Hal. { { Marcus Oh, Marcus, you big, adorable souffl?, I know it's a joke. Now go to your room and pick up your toys. Hal "Theory, like mist on eyeglasses, obscures vision." --Charlie Chan Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From Kent.Johnson Wed Mar 2 17:50:54 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:50:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose effects Message-ID: Kent said: >What you don't seem to realize (this is what I > gather from your posts, anyway) is that there has been a tendency of > experiment in Anglo-American poetry (and other languages, of course) > that, while not bound by traditional meters, has been guided by a > rigorously formal outlook and practice. And this has led to poetic > expressions much further removed from prose effects than, for >example, New Formalist writings. Marcus replied: >>It would be pretty to think so. Got an example? Um, Jackson Mac Low, Leslie Scalapino, John Cage, OULIPO, Christian Bok, Steve McCaffery, Susan Howe, Robert Duncan, Robin Blaser, Alan Davies, Charles Stein, Bruce Andrews, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Clark Coolidge, Michael Palmer, Louis Zukofsky, Robert Creeley, Charles Olson, Ronald Johnson, Gustaf Sobin, Jack Spicer, Gertrude Stein, Ezra Pound, (I'm just typing away here. Do you know some of these poets? I'm sure you do. Maybe you could explain how their writing more approximates the effects of "prose" than that of, say, Dana Gioia). From JforJames Wed Mar 2 18:38:12 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:38:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? or art, for that matter? Message-ID: <128.57a81c49.2f57a864@aol.com> R, as I heard a folk singer quip recently, "How do you get a $1M from folk music?"...answering himself: "Start with $2M. So, no, it has nothing to do with marketing. The art exists even it's a bunch of loose ms. pages in a locked drawer. But its existence is inert and not alive until it is exposed to others in the culture. Art is a transactional concept involving two or however few, those who tacitly or explicitly recognize it as art. Finnegan In a message dated 3/2/2005 3:04:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, shkodrov at yahoo.com writes: > > Isn't the (b) you are talking about just marketing? "Realization" of art is > brought to politics and marketing. Duchamp is trying to visualize this > phenomenon. Think of Manzoni's *Merda d'artista*... > > art --> money --> shit > but then... shit seen as art... IS art! > > And it doesn't matter if Marcus (or someone else!) agrees with it or not... > > > R. > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > >> As with his ready-mades, Duchamp is being intentionally provocative, >> but he's not wrongheaded. (a) The artists assert the art. (He >> or she may be only asserting it privately, idiosyncratically. Then (b) >> the assertion is recognized as art or it is not. Duchamp is addressing >> 'a'; but 'b' must follow for art to be realized. >> Art, in certain way, only exists as a shared concept or a transaction >> between at least two people. (As it widens it scope of acceptance it >> increases its claim to the term 'art' , or 'poetry'.) >> Emily Dickinson's poetry became 'poetry' when some folks thought >> it worthwhile to save and then to publish her bundled sheaves. >> It didn't exist as art before finding its audience, however small at >> first. >> The history of the avant-garde is one of small cadre of individuals >> influencing the standard of "What is art?" at large. This may >> happen quickly in a revolutionary way or more gradually by >> infiltrating the culture slowly. >> Finnegan >> >> >> >> ; >> In a message dated 3/2/2005 11:54:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, >> m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: >> >> >>> Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously adapted >>> M >>> Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, his original >>> statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art depends on a >>> definition of artist. >>> >>> >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Mar 2 19:11:11 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:11:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants References: Message-ID: <01cf01c51f85$81cb4160$8db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > An interesting article about MacArthur "genius grants" in literature. The > article says that data shows that the grants result in a radical DECREASE > in > literary output and quality. > > Paul Lake By whom? The people who get them or the the people who are discouraged because such morons get them? If the former, it may be because the few MacArthur Grants that go to superior writers go to has-beens; the rest go to lifetime mediocrities. --Bob G. From JforJames Wed Mar 2 19:19:00 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:19:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants Message-ID: <1e5.36ed023f.2f57b1f4@aol.com> In a message dated 3/2/2005 7:11:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > By whom? The people who get them or the the people who are discouraged > because such morons get them? If the former, it may be because the few > MacArthur Grants that go to superior writers go to has-beens; the rest go to > > lifetime mediocrities. > > Bob, it's time to name names. Anyway, It can't be surprise or even a disappointment to an obscure vispoet that he/she wasn't tapped for big handout. I think of a Reader's Digest Sweepstakes entrant waiting by his mailbox each...it breaks my heart. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Mar 2 20:10:51 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:10:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants References: <1e5.36ed023f.2f57b1f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <029f01c51f8d$d7df90d0$8db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In a message dated 3/2/2005 7:11:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: By whom? The people who get them or the the people who are discouraged because such morons get them? If the former, it may be because the few MacArthur Grants that go to superior writers go to has-beens; the rest go to lifetime mediocrities. Bob, it's time to name names. Anyway, It can't be surprise or even a disappointment to an obscure vispoet that he/she wasn't tapped for big handout. I think of a Reader's Digest Sweepstakes entrant waiting by his mailbox each...it breaks my heart. Finnegan Name what names? I don't have a list of MacArthur grantees, but know that just about everytime I see one's name, I quickly forget it. As for the many poets superior to the poets getting MacArthurs, I've named them enough. But, yes, I'm certainly among them. I don't wait for grants or awards, nor work less hard because (unsurprisingly) few poets whose work I so much as slightly respect get them (until they're too old for it to make any difference for them), but I do get discouraged when I think of all I feel I could do if I didn't have to throw away so much of my life earning enough for the basic necessities, so can imagine poets in my position feeling that because they'll never have the time they need to reach their potential, thanks to the indifference or emnity of the poetry establishment, there's no point in continuing to try to. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Mar 2 22:02:37 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:02:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose effects References: Message-ID: <030401c51f9d$74d94610$8db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Kent said: > >>What you don't seem to realize (this is what I >> gather from your posts, anyway) is that there has been a tendency of >> experiment in Anglo-American poetry (and other languages, of course) >> that, while not bound by traditional meters, has been guided by a >> rigorously formal outlook and practice. And this has led to poetic >> expressions much further removed from prose effects than, for >>example, New Formalist writings. > > Marcus replied: > >>>It would be pretty to think so. Got an example? > > Um, Jackson Mac Low, Leslie Scalapino, John Cage, OULIPO, Christian > Bok, Steve McCaffery, Susan Howe, Robert Duncan, Robin Blaser, Alan > Davies, Charles Stein, Bruce Andrews, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Clark > Coolidge, Michael Palmer, Louis Zukofsky, Robert Creeley, Charles Olson, > Ronald Johnson, Gustaf Sobin, Jack Spicer, Gertrude Stein, Ezra Pound, > (I'm just typing away here. Do you know some of these poets? I'm sure > you do. Maybe you could explain how their writing more approximates the > effects of "prose" than that of, say, Dana Gioia). Amusing how you leave out the ones most obviously more different from prose than the formalists: the visual poets. (I think of Jackson Mac Low as a sound poet but maybe he was a visual poet, too. Oh, and you got Ronald Johnson.) --Bob G. From grahamd Thu Mar 3 00:38:08 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:38:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows Message-ID: The MacArthur Foundation's web site has lots of info if you're wondering who gets these awards, why, etc. You can browse by name, year, field, and so on. http://www.macfdn.org/programs/fel/fellows/ Pasted below is the list of poets who have received "genius" grants since 1981. I guess we could have a discussion about individual names (Derek Walcott, John Ashbery, Adrienne Rich, Thom Gunn) along the lines of: mediocrities or has-beens?. But on second thought, let's not. What I find notable in the list of recipients is that, more often than most prizes or granting agencies, they do seem to seek out some real dark horses on a regular basis. Sure, they do pick folks like Ashbery or Strand, who are overstuffed with honors, but they have also showered their blessings on poets such as Linda Bierds, Douglas Crase, Richard Kenney, Lucia Perillo, Ann Lauterbach, and Jay Wright, who aren't exactly on every syllabus even now, or in many of the big teaching anthologies. It could probably be justly said that their literary picks have not been too venturesome aesthetically, as compared to some of their selections in non-literary fields. Few truly avant garde poets, yes. Ashbery, John Bierds, Linda Brodsky, Joseph Carson, Anne Clampitt, Amy Crase, Douglas Feldman, Irving Fulton, Alice Graham, Jorie Grossman, Allen Gunn, James E. Hass, Robert Hine, Daryl Hirsch, Edward Hollander, John Howard, Richard Kenney, Richard Kinnell, Galway Lauterbach, Ann Leithauser, Brad McGrath, Campbell Moss, Thylias Perillo, Lucia Powell, Jim Ramanujan, A. K. Rich, Adrienne Simic, Charles Strand, Mark Swenson, May Walcott, Derek Warren, Robert Penn Wilner, Eleanor Wright, C.D. Wright, Jay ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From marcus Thu Mar 3 07:17:45 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:17:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose effects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4226BA19.10669.C7A79@localhost> > Kent said: > >What you don't seem to realize (this is what I > > gather from your posts, anyway) is that there has been a tendency of > > experiment in Anglo-American poetry (and other languages, of course) > > that, while not bound by traditional meters, has been guided by a > > rigorously formal outlook and practice. And this has led to poetic > > expressions much further removed from prose effects than, for > >example, New Formalist writings. > Marcus replied: > >>It would be pretty to think so. Got an example? Kent said: > Um, Jackson Mac Low, Leslie Scalapino, John Cage, OULIPO, Christian > Bok, Steve McCaffery, Susan Howe, Robert Duncan, Robin Blaser, Alan > Davies, Charles Stein, Bruce Andrews, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Clark > Coolidge, Michael Palmer, Louis Zukofsky, Robert Creeley, Charles > Olson, Ronald Johnson, Gustaf Sobin, Jack Spicer, Gertrude Stein, Ezra > Pound, (I'm just typing away here. Do you know some of these poets? > I'm sure you do. Maybe you could explain how their writing more > approximates the effects of "prose" than that of, say, Dana Gioia). Got an example? A specific example? An example you can use to show why a specific piece of work is poetry and not prose? Marcus From bobgrumman Thu Mar 3 07:24:32 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:24:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: Message-ID: <007401c51feb$f4972950$82b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I often overstate, as I suppose some of you have noticed. While I don't think much of the poetry of Derek Walcott, John Ashbery, Adrienne Rich, or Thom Gunn, I wouldn't call them mediocrities. I wouldn't call any of them major, though--and am pretty confident that, except perhaps for Walcott, they got their grants long after they'd gotten substantial recognition elsewhere, and in most cases, after they'd done their best work. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Mar 3 07:26:53 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:26:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: Message-ID: <008301c51fec$48bc2580$82b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > It could probably be justly said that their literary picks have not been > too > venturesome aesthetically, as compared to some of their selections in > non-literary fields. Few truly avant garde poets, yes. I doubt they've been venturesome in any field. This would not be so irksome if the grants were not advertised as being for "mavericks" during the first years of the foundation. --Bob G. From marcus Thu Mar 3 08:30:21 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:30:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: <1109778800.4225e17052eff@webmail.ukonline.net> References: <422588D9.9511.42DD30@localhost> Message-ID: <4226CB1D.15148.14D1F8@localhost> On 2 Mar 2005 at 15:53, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote: > I think I've already said all I can say about this debate. What I > really think is basically what Marcel Duchamp said in that quote about > "if someone says it's art, it's art."< But if you really accept this, then you have to face the consequences: what about a rapist who says his rapes are art? A murderer or torturer who says his or her work is art? If art is anything someone says it is, then you must support torture, for example, as an art if someone says it is. What about war? Isn't there an 'art of war'? How can you be opposed to art, Michael, even though the art is war or rape or murder or torture? Clearly, it is not the case that "anything anyone says is art is art" or else we'd have to face those consequences. So we know there must be a line between art and non-art. The question "What is poetry" really seeks to make that line clear, or clearer -- and it cannot be reasonably answered by saying "Anything is art that any one says is art". > Regarding the specifics, there > are twenty arguments for rejecting Marcus's proposal, but the killing > one is what Bob said about six messages back, that it's totally > impractical. < It's not impractical, it's just difficult. > e.g. Karin Boye is in many ways a traditional poet for her time. (She > was also a novelist.) She published five volumes of what everyone but > Marcus is content to call "poetry". The first three were predominantly > metrical - maybe about 80% - the last two are about half-and-half > between free verse and metrical. Some of her greatest (what the rest > of us call) poems are metrical, others not. > A very typical biography like this would be almost inexpressible in > Balesian English. "Boye's first collection of > mixed-poetry-and-short-prose was published in 1922... etc." It would > tell a perfectly spurious story in which distinctions are made between > different works by authors who themselves saw none.< But that's the case now. What Aristotle called "poetry" we now call "drama" or "fiction". Aeschylus thought of himself as a poet, but we think of him as a playwright, for the same work. The story that "Boye's first collection of mixed poetry and short prose ..." tells is not "perfectly spurious" at all. To be sure, it tells a good bit about the critic's view of what's poetry and what's not right up front, but lots of sentences do that, and why shouldn't they? > ... In any account of > literary history the Balesian would constantly have to resort to > expressions like "what the people of that era thought of as poems".< Just so -- as we should say, but do not say, about Aeschylus, for example. Instead the distinctions that were made or not made by the contemporaries of "poets" are often conflated or picked out by later audiences. This is all nothing new. The notions either that a later audience would evaluate a piece of work as poetry or not poetry, or that a contemporary audience would do the opposite, is a reasonable objection to either practice is simply ludicrous. It's done all the time, on purpose for art-politics reasons, world-politics reasons, by accident, and out of ignorance. Of course we ought to say "what the people of that era thought of as poems" -- though more often than not we do not say it, most often out of art-politics or ignorance. > And to make all of this even more futile, the perfectly good word > "verse" already exists to do the (occasionally useful) work that > Marcus wants "poetry" to do.< No, it does not -- the word "verse" is derogatory. Marcus From JforJames Thu Mar 3 08:31:25 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:31:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] WBY on verse & an aside on "meant" Message-ID: W.B. Yeats: I'm going to read my poems with great emphasis upon their rhythms.& that may seem strange if you're not used to it. I remember the great English poet William Morris coming in a rage out of some lecture hall, where somebody had recited a passage out of his "Sea-gulls of Alston(?)." "It gave me a devil of a lot of trouble," said Morris, "to get that thing into verse." It gave me a devil of a lot of trouble to get into verse the poems I'm going to read and that is why I am not going to read them as if they were prose. (WBY goes on to introduce his reading of "Lake Isle of Innisfree") I think there is only one obscurity in the poem; I speak of noon as "a purple glow." I must have meant by that the reflection of heather in the water. >From a BBC broadcast 1932, transcribed from The Spoken Word, Poets, historic recordings from the British Library Sound Archive. reviewed here? http://www.telegraphindia.com/1030509/asp/foreign/story_1952706.asp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Mar 3 08:34:35 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:34:35 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? Message-ID: <15.3fce54f3.2f586c6b@aol.com> In a message dated 3/3/2005 8:30:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > But if you really accept this, then you have to face the > consequences: what about a rapist who says his rapes are art? A > murderer or torturer who says his or her work is art? Marcus, your second worst habit in argument is showing again, ad absurdum. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Thu Mar 3 08:54:39 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:54:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose effects Message-ID: Marcus replied to my quick list of experimental poets who are less "prosy" than his New Formalist friends: >Got an example? A specific example? An example you can use to show >why a specific piece of work is poetry and not prose? Marcus, you seem to be confused about your (if you'll forgive the awkward phrase) interlocutorial position in this discussion: It's YOU who are making the idiosyncratic and as yet unsatisfactorily defended claim here... So YOU should show us why something by one of these poets (the great majority of poetry readers would grant them the title) is not "poetry"! By the way, ever read the Russian Formalists, or Roman Jakobson's later work, for example? It might help you to see how limited your argument is... From elemenope Wed Mar 2 21:39:32 2005 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:39:32 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] "If Art is what the Artist says it is:" Marcus Bales. In-Reply-To: <200503031328.j23DSO0t011995@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200503031328.j23DSO0t011995@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Karlheinz Stockhausen told the world post 9/11/01 that the WTC Attack was one of the greatest artworks of all time. At 08:28 AM -0500 3/3/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: >But if you really accept this, then you have to face the >consequences: what about a rapist who says his rapes are art? A >murderer or torturer who says his or her work is art? If art is >anything someone says it is, then you must support torture, for >example, as an art if someone says it is. What about war? Isn't there >an 'art of war'? How can you be opposed to art, Michael, even though >the art is war or rape or murder or torture? Clearly, it is not the >case that "anything anyone says is art is art" or else we'd have to >face those consequences. So we know there must be a line between art >and non-art. The question "What is poetry" really seeks to make that >line clear, or clearer -- and it cannot be reasonably answered by >saying "Anything is art that any one says is art". R i c h a r d D i l l o n -- From marcus Thu Mar 3 11:46:55 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:46:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose effects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4226F92F.16257.C8C878@localhost> Kent Johnson wrote: > Marcus replied to my quick list of experimental poets who are less > "prosy" than his New Formalist friends: I have no idea what you mean by "New Formalist friends". Marcus wrote: > >Got an example? A specific example? An example you can use to show > >why a specific piece of work is poetry and not prose? Kent Johnson wrote: > Marcus, you seem to be confused about your (if you'll forgive the > awkward phrase) interlocutorial position in this discussion: It's YOU > who are making the idiosyncratic and as yet unsatisfactorily defended > claim here... So YOU should show us why something by one of these > poets (the great majority of poetry readers would grant them the > title) is not "poetry"!< On the contrary, the tradition in all languages we know about is that writing in meter is poetry and writing not in meter is prose. It is your claim that non-meter writing is something other than prose. The burden of proof has been on the "new" claim, though it is 100 years old now, that you're making. The presumption must be that the advocates of the new claim bear the burden of proof in general. But in this specific instance, you've said " ... there has been a tendency of experiment in Anglo-American poetry (and other languages, of course) that, while not bound by traditional meters, has been guided by a rigorously formal outlook and practice. And this has led to poetic expressions much further removed from prose effects than, for example, New Formalist writings." That's your assertion. Give me a specific example, and show why the example supports your contention. Marcus From marcus Thu Mar 3 11:53:03 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:53:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: <15.3fce54f3.2f586c6b@aol.com> Message-ID: <4226FA9F.14927.CE65F8@localhost> > marcus at designerglass.com writes: > But if you really accept this, then you have to face the > consequences: what about a rapist who says his rapes are art? A > murderer or torturer who says his or her work is art? > On 3 Mar 2005 at 8:34, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Marcus, your second worst habit in argument is showing again, > ad absurdum. I'm merely pointing out the consequences of "If ANYone says it's art then it is". You are welcome to point out who, if anyone, you want to exclude from that formula -- but if you don't make any exclusions you have to live with the consequences of your statement. Marcus From paul.lake Thu Mar 3 04:35:06 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 03:35:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My friend Jim Powell was certainly a dark horse when he was picked. Broke, unemployed, and about to be evicted, he benefited greatly from the grant. Paul Lake On 3/2/05 11:38 PM, "David Graham" wrote: > The MacArthur Foundation's web site has lots of info if you're wondering who > gets these awards, why, etc. You can browse by name, year, field, and so > on. > > http://www.macfdn.org/programs/fel/fellows/ > > Pasted below is the list of poets who have received "genius" grants since > 1981. I guess we could have a discussion about individual names (Derek > Walcott, John Ashbery, Adrienne Rich, Thom Gunn) along the lines of: > mediocrities or has-beens?. > > But on second thought, let's not. > > What I find notable in the list of recipients is that, more often than most > prizes or granting agencies, they do seem to seek out some real dark horses > on a regular basis. Sure, they do pick folks like Ashbery or Strand, who > are overstuffed with honors, but they have also showered their blessings on > poets such as Linda Bierds, Douglas Crase, Richard Kenney, Lucia Perillo, > Ann Lauterbach, and Jay Wright, who aren't exactly on every syllabus even > now, or in many of the big teaching anthologies. > > It could probably be justly said that their literary picks have not been too > venturesome aesthetically, as compared to some of their selections in > non-literary fields. Few truly avant garde poets, yes. > > Ashbery, John > Bierds, Linda > Brodsky, Joseph > Carson, Anne > Clampitt, Amy > Crase, Douglas > Feldman, Irving > Fulton, Alice > Graham, Jorie > Grossman, Allen > Gunn, James E. > Hass, Robert > Hine, Daryl > Hirsch, Edward > Hollander, John > Howard, Richard > Kenney, Richard > Kinnell, Galway > Lauterbach, Ann > Leithauser, Brad > McGrath, Campbell > Moss, Thylias > Perillo, Lucia > Powell, Jim > Ramanujan, A. K. > Rich, Adrienne > Simic, Charles > Strand, Mark > Swenson, May > Walcott, Derek > Warren, Robert Penn > Wilner, Eleanor > Wright, C.D. > Wright, Jay > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From JforJames Thu Mar 3 12:09:15 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:09:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Snoop Dog didn't make the short list Message-ID: <1f9.5a3717a.2f589ebb@aol.com> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aYqebOXMQHhg California Cultural Groups Narrowing Search for a Poet Laureate ``Poets were fearful of working with government then and it was a new process,'' he said. In 2002, the producer of the television comedy series ``Will and Grace'' nominated his entire writing team to the post, Tatar said. Among those being considered this year are African-American poet Wanda Coleman; Suzanne Lewis, who founded the Los Angeles poetry festival; and Eloise Klein Healy, who writes on nature, neighborhoods and relationships, drawing inspiration from her home base in the Echo Park area of Los Angeles. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chryss Thu Mar 3 12:17:18 2005 From: chryss (Chryss Yost) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:17:18 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Snoop Dog didn't make the short list In-Reply-To: <1f9.5a3717a.2f589ebb@aol.com> References: <1f9.5a3717a.2f589ebb@aol.com> Message-ID: <1109870238.4227469e19633@webmail.netlojix.com> I believe that's Suzanne *Lummis*... Quoting JforJames at aol.com: > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aYqebOXMQHhg > > California Cultural Groups Narrowing Search for a Poet Laureate > > ``Poets were fearful of working with government then and it was a new > process,'' he said. In 2002, the producer of the television comedy series > ``Will and > Grace'' nominated his entire writing team to the post, Tatar said. > > Among those being considered this year are African-American poet Wanda > Coleman; Suzanne Lewis, who founded the Los Angeles poetry festival; and > Eloise > Klein Healy, who writes on nature, neighborhoods and relationships, drawing > inspiration from her home base in the Echo Park area of Los Angeles. > > -- www.chryssyost.com From Rsgwynn1 Thu Mar 3 12:17:11 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:17:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Snoop Dog didn't make the short list Message-ID: <9e.216bb30e.2f58a097@cs.com> I hope someone considers Kay Ryan for this position. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Mar 3 12:20:20 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:20:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows Message-ID: <103.5c5eaa52.2f58a154@aol.com> In a message dated 3/3/2005 7:40:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: got their grants long after they'd gotten substantial recognition elsewhere, and in most cases, after they'd done their best work. Bob, if you look at the list David posted you could tell that quite a few MacArthur grantees haven't even reached the point of publishing a Selected Poems...whether their best work is in front of them is an open question, but many have hardly reached the point where they're getting the accolade & pile of cash for 'lifetime achievement'. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov Thu Mar 3 13:15:42 2005 From: shkodrov (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:15:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? In-Reply-To: <4226FA9F.14927.CE65F8@localhost> Message-ID: <20050303181542.38291.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> Marcus, For your enjoyment: "Poetry, well written, can be a spiritually uplifting experience. Badly written, it can be an experience of buttock-clenching horror. The third worst poetry in the universe is written by Vogons, and frequently used as a form of torture. The absolute worst poetry was written by Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings. It involved decaying swans. Luckily, it was destroyed during the demolition of the Earth. Examples of good, if long, poetry can be heard on the planet of Golgafrincham, home to the great circling poets of Arium." -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (entry on "Poetry") Need an example? Now you know where to find it! Best, Rosie Marcus Bales wrote: > marcus at designerglass.com writes: > But if you really accept this, then you have to face the > consequences: what about a rapist who says his rapes are art? A > murderer or torturer who says his or her work is art? > On 3 Mar 2005 at 8:34, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Marcus, your second worst habit in argument is showing again, > ad absurdum. I'm merely pointing out the consequences of "If ANYone says it's art then it is". You are welcome to point out who, if anyone, you want to exclude from that formula -- but if you don't make any exclusions you have to live with the consequences of your statement. Marcus _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Thu Mar 3 13:26:41 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:26:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] headphones, anyone? Message-ID: [sent to Ron Silliman's comment box this AM] Ron Silliman said: >What is the literary equivalent of the narrated audio that accompanies so many "major" museum shows these days? Is it footnotes? A foreword? Is it Robert Bly, reading his poem, then telling you what it means in the most reductive possible terms before reading it again, strumming now on a dulcimer?< Why haven't Language poets tried playing the dulcimer while reading their poems? What's wrong with the dulcimer? But on this "narrated audio" thing, why not think more ambitiously? After all, this is the age of the DVD, and soon we will have smaller versions of the discs, easily insertible into books. The reader will plug it on in, and presto: There are the fifty four blurbists, in living color, reading their blurbs; the poet is there on another track, reading his poems at Brown, the audience applauding; a big-name critic speaks from her office, explaining the relationship between the poetry and Wittgenstein or Shklovskii; a clip from a Goddard film, alluded to in a line from the book's title poem, is offered; an aerial photo of the octopus image of the University of Pennsylvania is a click away, as if it were Mt. Rainier seen from above: the reader/viewer selects the numbers on the buildings and is zoomed into the offices of highly successful innovative poets, who read (accompanied by prepared piano?) the poems of the poet, interrupting their readings occasionally to offer, a la "Jack and Bobby," warm reminiscences of the young poet in San Francisco, ca. 1982; a gallery of photos: here the baby poet taking a bath, now the adolescent poet with headphones, listening to Roman Jakobson's 1960 lecture recording of "Two Aspects of Language and Two Types of Aphasic Disturbances," while the poet, in voice over, embarrassedly, but endearingly, explains that he and his fellows had completely gotten backwards what RJ meant by "In the poetic function, the principle of equivalence is projected from the axis of selection into the axis of combination," but that's OK, metaphor and metonymy can be easily confused, etc. Of course, these would be examples of "DVD poetry book extra features" in the very earliest conceptual stages. There is no telling what the virtual reality future will bring... Head phones?? Aw, come on... Kent From JforJames Thu Mar 3 14:24:58 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:24:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] A Motley Crew: Moyers Discusses Iraq, President Bush, Poetry Message-ID: http://www.ucsbdailynexus.com/news/2005/9164.html Moyers Discusses Iraq,President Bush, Poetry In discussing less politically charged subjects, Nye asked Moyers for his thoughts on poetry, since he and his wife, Judith, produce public readings every year. Moyers said poetry is the greatest outlet for the sensual, religious, erotic, intellectual and spiritual experiences in life, and that, although he has only written one poem in the course of his life, he greatly appreciates the art. ?Poetry is like going to church,? he said. ?It is like finding a voice that says, ?This, too, shall pass.?? Moyers said his profession did not offer the same creative freedom that poetry could. ?As a journalist, you are not quite as much at liberty as the poet because you are supposed to be tethered to verification,? he said. ?We?re supposed to offer evidence, and we?re supposed to have deep respect for the facts. You don? t speculate in public domain. The best journalists are cautious in that respect.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok Thu Mar 3 14:25:45 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:25:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows In-Reply-To: <103.5c5eaa52.2f58a154@aol.com> References: <103.5c5eaa52.2f58a154@aol.com> Message-ID: Well, a little news: some of my poems and (even a merciful picture) can be found online at Anny's lovely and generous website, Poet's Corner at Fiera Lingue. cheers, K. From jkok Thu Mar 3 14:29:29 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:29:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows In-Reply-To: References: <103.5c5eaa52.2f58a154@aol.com> Message-ID: I forgot to include the url. http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > Well, a little news: some of my poems and (even a merciful picture) can > be found online at Anny's > lovely and generous website, Poet's Corner at Fiera Lingue. > > cheers, K. > From JforJames Thu Mar 3 14:44:37 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:44:37 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] headphones, anyone? Message-ID: <45.233aa594.2f58c325@aol.com> In a message dated 3/3/2005 1:28:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: quoting Ron Silliman... Robert Bly, reading his poem, then telling you what it means in the most reductive possible terms before reading it again, strumming now on a dulcimer?< I thought Bly's main instrument was the bazouki? http://surfcitymusic.com/Mandolins/mandolin_6.html And though it's fallen out of fashion in modern times, poetry & music were traditionally twins joined at the hip. A languauge poet would be, by nature, subverting meaning at every turn, so there isn't much too much to say before or after the poem, reductive, instructive or otherwise. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 Thu Mar 3 14:58:35 2005 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:58:35 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] nea cd Message-ID: <149.4078a806.2f58c66b@aol.com> you think a dulcimer (or even a bouzuki--bly plays both, by the way, though people do question the notion of "play") would help language poems? just kidding... speaking of CDs, has anyone received a copy of (sorry, I'm gonna get this wrong because the CD is at my office) something called the National Poetry Recitation Competition CD. It's a Gioa/NEA concept. teach people how to memorize/read & enjoy poems. here's a description of the initiative from the NEA's FY 2004 "Performance & Accountability Report." "C. Poetry Recitation This year the Arts Endowment is undertaking a pilot project to encourage the memorization and recitation of poetry by the young, leading to a National Poetry Recitation Contest. This effort, as with other national initiatives, reflects a public-private partnership; in this case, between the National Endowment for the Arts and the Poetry Foundation. The pilot will occur in schools and community centers in the Chicago and Washington, D.C. areas and will involve the development of curricular materials to include a recitation booklet and an audio CD. In the Washington area, plans call for the poetry recitation competition to occur in schools in the District of Columbia, Northern Virginia, and Maryland. Following completion of the pilot, an evaluation will be conducted to determine the success of the pilot and the framework for extending the program nationally. It is anticipated that this program will reach schools throughout the Nation and mirror the success and acceptance of the National Spelling and Geography Bees as important, ongoing educational endeavors. " ? cd is narrated by gioa. there are @ 30 cuts on it. ? some of the contemporary poets reading & talking on the cd. are: diana theil, dave mason, rita dove, gioia ? some celebs reading classic poems are: alyssa milano, anthony hopkins (reading all of "prufrock) and several others i'm forgetting...if someone else received a copy, perheps he or she can post the lineup. it's an interesting and sometimes puzzling compilation. everyonce in a while i think of john lovitz's snl skit where he does the character who overdramatizes and shouts out *acting* to remind people of drama's social significance & cultural weight. who knows, the final recitation competition could make espn tv as does the national spelling bee! thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Thu Mar 3 17:25:04 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:25:04 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: <103.5c5eaa52.2f58a154@aol.com> Message-ID: <002201c5203f$d985a4d0$ceae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Thank you very much Kerry, I am coming out in this moment of the _tunnel_ of something like a pc instability ... I think I had to cancel some mails, so if anybody sent me any please be patient and send over again. It seems I became the target of spyware, and my AdAware was only 6, they have #7 now, thus incapable of detecting the improved marvels that gave me a black screen over and over for 2 days. Hope you are all doing fine, till soon, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerry O'Keefe" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows > > I forgot to include the url. > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > > > Well, a little news: some of my poems and (even a merciful picture) can > > be found online at Anny's > > lovely and generous website, Poet's Corner at Fiera Lingue. > > > > cheers, K. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Mar 3 17:44:26 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:44:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] You'll take and you'll like it, you cheap gunsel Message-ID: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4520872 listen to Kevin Young's Poetry Noir, 'Black Maria' by Renee Montagne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Mar 3 18:47:56 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:47:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] nea cd Message-ID: In a message dated 3/3/2005 2:59:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Thom424 at aol.com writes: has anyone received a copy of (sorry, I'm gonna get this wrong because the CD is at my office) something called the National Poetry Recitation Competition CD. It's a Gioa/NEA concept Thom, how do you get one of these...Did it come gratis in the mail? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Mar 3 22:10:52 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:10:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] nea cd Message-ID: In a message dated 3/3/2005 5:55:41 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 3/3/2005 2:59:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > Thom424 at aol.com writes: > > >> has anyone received a copy of (sorry, I'm gonna get this wrong because >> the CD is at my office) something called the National Poetry Recitation >> Competition CD. It's a Gioa/NEA concept > > > Thom, how do you get one of these...Did it come gratis in the mail? > Finnegan > I have it. Haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. Probably can be ordered at the NEA website. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope Thu Mar 3 12:55:15 2005 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 01:55:15 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Meter/Poetry 3/3/05 Message-ID: It is a story we tell ourselves: if only these demands would cease, I would write and be free. Our fates and the stretches of time that mark them are far more defined than our education can admit. This is why the greatest contributions of Yeats are today disregarded. Like great sea creatures rising from the ancient waves, poets appear, suddenly, astonish, and are gone. What we do with the allotments of time we are granted to make our art is what counts, and is fated. All is fate. We are fated to be able to measure or speak to this destiny. Humanity is united in tragedy. Humanity is united in laughter. We, the audience, vanish in the theater, suspended. Shax understood Rembrandt. From myriad masks hanging in chiaroscuro deep time, their voices speak, rail, comment on our human perception of this fearsome intersection, this cross. To write of time requires we write in time or against it. Our music is time made into words, stretched, compressed, sized, cut and danced. Creeley started from the inside out and discovered the inevitable meters, his true song. His poems are not the application of meters; the meters emerge from how he counts his thoughts as they arise. He watches. He watches his words as they arrive. He watches himself watching the words. The man who speaks is not the man who watches. Creeley, the figure of outward, just jumped aboard a bus in Harvard Square and took off - - he told me outside the old Wursthaus where we'd had beers. Just as far out as he went (and he travelled everywhere) so too did he go inward. I remember him well, how he could dot the air with an index finger signalling, "It is NOW, Babe." ------ R i c h a r d D i l l o n >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Genius Grants (Paul Lake) > 2. RE: Genius Grants (Halvard Johnson) > 3. Re: Genius Grants (MillB at aol.com) > 4. Re: What is poetry? or art, for that matter? (JforJames at aol.com) > 5. Re: Genius Grants (Paul Lake) > 6. Re: Genius Grants (Jewelweed) > 7. RE: What is poetry? (kpaul mallasch) > 8. Re: What is poetry? or art, for that matter? (Rosie Shkodrov) > 9. RE: What is poetry? (Marcus Bales) > 10. Re: What is poetry? (Marcus Bales) > 11. RE: What is poetry? (Anthony Robinson) > 12. Re: What is poetry? (Marcus Bales) > 13. RE: What is poetry? (Marcus Bales) > 14. Poet Laureate (Paul Lake) > 15. RE: What is poetry? (Halvard Johnson) > 16. Prose effects (Kent Johnson) > 17. Re: What is poetry? or art, for that matter? (JforJames at aol.com) > 18. Re: Genius Grants (Bob Grumman) > 19. Re: Genius Grants (JforJames at aol.com) > 20. Re: Genius Grants (Bob Grumman) > 21. Re: Prose effects (Bob Grumman) > 22. MacArthur Fellows (David Graham) > 23. Re: Prose effects (Marcus Bales) > 24. Re: MacArthur Fellows (Bob Grumman) > 25. Re: MacArthur Fellows (Bob Grumman) > 26. Re: What is poetry? (Marcus Bales) > 27. WBY on verse & an aside on "meant" (JforJames at aol.com) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 04:09:27 -0600 >From: Paul Lake >Subject: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >An interesting article about MacArthur "genius grants" in literature. The >article says that data shows that the grants result in a radical DECREASE in >literary output and quality. > >Paul Lake > > >http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/296oqmgh.a >sp > >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:17:38 -0500 >From: "Halvard Johnson" >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >Hmmm, so do Social Security, retirement, Alzheimer's, and, yep, death. > >Hal, who'd take a break if he got one of them genial grants > >{ An interesting article about MacArthur "genius grants" in literature. The >{ article says that data shows that the grants result in a >radical DECREASE in >{ literary output and quality. >{ >{ Paul Lake >{ >{ >{ >http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/296oqmgh.a >{ sp >{ >{ --- >{ [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >{ >{ _______________________________________________ >{ New-Poetry mailing list >{ New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >{ http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:27:33 EST >From: MillB at aol.com >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <191.3a24dcc9.2f575185 at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Interesting article. > >There is much to be questioned, though. > >>From personal example (not that I have won a half million dollar grant or >anything, but), I have done my best work when I was the busiest (working two >jobs, strapped for cash, etc.) > >And, when on a semester abroad (away from teaching and working) or during a >grant year, what I tend to do best is synthesize. Like, in Prague, I wrote >very little because I was too busy researching and "experiencing." However, >after I returned home, I was very productive. > >Also, I question whether publication can be a measurement of productivity. >Just because Ernest J. Gaines, (A Lesson Before Dying) has not published a >novel (since his Genius Grant) does not mean that his creative life has been >static: he might have any number of manuscripts finished or in progress. He >might be teaching or traveling or feeding his mind in other ways? > >Cheers, > >Mill >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050302/38f47be5/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:42:27 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? or art, for that matter? >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <1c1.23a6cf8d.2f576313 at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >As with his ready-mades, Duchamp is being intentionally provocative, >but he's not wrongheaded. (a) The artists assert the art. (He >or she may be only asserting it privately, idiosyncratically. Then (b) >the assertion is recognized as art or it is not. Duchamp is addressing >'a'; but 'b' must follow for art to be realized. >Art, in certain way, only exists as a shared concept or a transaction between >at least two people. (As it widens it scope of acceptance it >increases its claim to the term 'art' , or 'poetry'.) >Emily Dickinson's poetry became 'poetry' when some folks thought >it worthwhile to save and then to publish her bundled sheaves. >It didn't exist as art before finding its audience, however small at first. >The history of the avant-garde is one of small cadre of individuals >influencing the standard of "What is art?" at large. This may >happen quickly in a revolutionary way or more gradually by >infiltrating the culture slowly. >Finnegan > > > >; >In a message dated 3/2/2005 11:54:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, >m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: >Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously adapted M >Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, his original >statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art depends on a >definition of artist. > > > >Quoting Halvard Johnson : > >> >> { I think I've already said all I can say about this debate. What I >really >> think >> { is basically what Marcel Duchamp said in that quote about "if someone >> says >> { it's art, it's art." >> >> That's not exactly what Duchamp said. See below. >> >> Hal ""Anything is art if an artist says it is." > > --Marcel Duchamp >> Halvard Johnson >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050302/d638b778/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 05:57:12 -0600 >From: Paul Lake >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >On 3/2/05 11:27 AM, "MillB at aol.com" wrote: > >> Interesting article. >> >> There is much to be questioned, though. >> >> From personal example (not that I have won a half million dollar grant or >> anything, but), I have done my best work when I was the busiest (working two >> jobs, strapped for cash, etc.) >> >> And, when on a semester abroad (away from teaching and working) or during a >> grant year, what I tend to do best is synthesize. Like, in Prague, I wrote >> very little because I was too busy researching and "experiencing." However, >> after I returned home, I was very productive. >> >> Also, I question whether publication can be a measurement of productivity. >> Just because Ernest J. Gaines, (A Lesson Before Dying) has not published a >> novel (since his Genius Grant) does not mean that his creative life has been >> static: he might have any number of manuscripts finished or in progress. He >> might be teaching or traveling or feeding his mind in other ways? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mill >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >Mill, I know what you mean about fallow periods. A friend of mine who won >the MacArthur some ten years ago would appear to have been relatively >unproductive during his grant years, since he hasn?t published a book since >winning it, but I know he?s been assiduously reading, researching, and >writing some of the best poems of his life. Literary politics also play a >part in who and what gets published when. > >Paul >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050302/40f89625/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:09:15 -0500 >From: Jewelweed >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:27:33 EST, MillB at aol.com wrote: > >> Also, I question whether publication can be a measurement of productivity. >> Just because Ernest J. Gaines, (A Lesson Before Dying) has not published a >> novel (since his Genius Grant) does not mean that his creative life has been >> static: he might have any number of manuscripts finished or in progress. He >> might be teaching or traveling or feeding his mind in other ways? > > >Exactly. On what data have they based this off-the-cuff conclusions? A >quick count of books made on Amazon.com? Please. It sounds like >nobody, not even the MacArthur Foundation, has followed up on any of >the grantees to see what they are doing. If someone did, they might >very well find surprising and interesting results. Cranking out a book >isn't the only worthy goal-- I would rather wait awhile and see some >real quality. > >My take on MacArthur is that it is a big reward, an affirmation, for >work already done. What actually "makes" people productive is pretty >elusive in any event, and I don't know how anyone could quantify that. >For myself, limitations seem to be motivating for actually putting out >the written work but the time spent simply on *being*, intangible >though it may be, is what is really crucial. Some things in one's >creative development cannot be tracked on a Gantt Chart. > >The years I spent with lots of free time on my hands were mostly >wasted pursuing relationships of variable quality, frolicing on Greek >beaches, exploring Turkey and Eastern Europe, learning to sail, and... >not getting much measurable work done. I can't see any of that as >"wasted time" though-- it was crucial in developing my vision, it made >me who I am, and it gave me my edge. I also spent a lot of that time >reading deeply, and going to graduate school. > >Now that I am shouldering a "serious" job with long, limiting hours, I >am adamant about using the freetime I have for my writing, and I am >producing. (My current partner, a very understanding sweetie, might >forgive me for all this vanishing-into-my-study someday). There is a >time and a place for everything. > >--Suzanne Burns > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 7 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:52:02 -0500 (EST) >From: kpaul mallasch >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <20050302145156.D8953 at kpaul.spinweb.net> >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > >;) > >thx, hal. > >-kpaul > >On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> >> Here's something we can all agree on: >> >> Poetry is a six-letter word, whereas prose is merely >> a five-letter word. >> >> Hal "A discouraging number of reputable poets >> are sane beyond recall." >> --E. B. White >> Halvard Johnson >> =============== >> email: halvard at earthlink.net >> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 8 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:04:37 -0800 (PST) >From: Rosie Shkodrov >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? or art, for that matter? >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > >Message-ID: <20050302200438.42835.qmail at web54602.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Isn't the (b) you are talking about just marketing? "Realization" of >art is brought to politics and marketing. Duchamp is trying to >visualize this phenomenon. Think of Manzoni's *Merda d'artista*... > >art --> money --> shit >but then... shit seen as art... IS art! > >And it doesn't matter if Marcus (or someone else!) agrees with it or not... > > >R. > >JforJames at aol.com wrote: >As with his ready-mades, Duchamp is being intentionally provocative, >but he's not wrongheaded. (a) The artists assert the art. (He >or she may be only asserting it privately, idiosyncratically. Then (b) >the assertion is recognized as art or it is not. Duchamp is addressing >'a'; but 'b' must follow for art to be realized. >Art, in certain way, only exists as a shared concept or a >transaction between at least two people. (As it widens it scope of >acceptance it >increases its claim to the term 'art' , or 'poetry'.) >Emily Dickinson's poetry became 'poetry' when some folks thought >it worthwhile to save and then to publish her bundled sheaves. >It didn't exist as art before finding its audience, however small at first. >The history of the avant-garde is one of small cadre of individuals >influencing the standard of "What is art?" at large. This may >happen quickly in a revolutionary way or more gradually by >infiltrating the culture slowly. >Finnegan > > > >; >In a message dated 3/2/2005 11:54:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, >m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: >Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously adapted M >Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, his original >statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art depends on a >definition of artist. > > > >Quoting Halvard Johnson : > >> >> { I think I've already said all I can say about this debate. >>What I really >> think >> { is basically what Marcel Duchamp said in that quote about "if someone >> says >> { it's art, it's art." >> >> That's not exactly what Duchamp said. See below. >> >> Hal ""Anything is art if an artist says it is." > > --Marcel Duchamp >> Halvard Johnson > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050302/cf40d4fa/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 9 >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:18:50 -0500 >From: "Marcus Bales" >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? >To: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > & Views" >Message-ID: <4225D95A.26615.4D603F at localhost> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >On 2 Mar 2005 at 16:54, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote: >> Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously >> adapted M Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, >> his original statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art >> depends on a definition of artist. > >Exactly -- something I've pointed out to Hal each time he brings this >tired banality up, and something he shrugs off each time with a so >what or a whatever. He pretends he's making an important distinction >between what people think Duchamp says and what Duchamp says, but >when you ask him what an artist is he'll say it's anyone who claims >to be an artist -- which means that Hal's purported distinction >between what Duchamp said and what Duchamp is thought to have said is >irrelevant even to Hal. > >Marcus > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 10 >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:26:56 -0500 >From: "Marcus Bales" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? >To: "Kent Johnson" , "NewPoetry: > Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Message-ID: <4225DB40.5359.54CA7C at localhost> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >> Michael said: >> >And to make all of this even more futile, the perfectly good word >> "verse" already exists to do the (occasionally useful) work that >> Marcus wants "poetry" to do.< > >On 2 Mar 2005 at 10:55, Kent Johnson wrote: >> Presto! > >This is wrong on the face of it, because ever since Quintillian >people have been making disparaging comparisons of verse to poetry >based on a misunderstanding of Aristotle. Aristotle says that poetry >is something in addition to metered verse; Quintillian et al., right >through to Eliot's essay on Kipling, disparage verse as something >other than, even something antithetical to, poetry. > >Marcus > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 11 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:33:07 -0800 >From: "Anthony Robinson" >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? >To: , "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > & Views'" >Message-ID: <077601c51f67$11682e60$cb3d1c40 at Emily> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >So, Marcus, Quintillian, Sidney, Eliot, et al. are simply wrong? > >Sidney agrees with Aristotle that poetry is "making." It is invention, >and it involves metaphor (which I won't rehash here in this small post). > > >I'm not convinced that Aristotle says that poetry is restricted to >writing in metrical verse--as I remember it's a bit more complicated >than that. I don't have my books here, though, so I can't offer up >evidence. In any case, though, why make Aristotle the governing >authority here? He was certainly wrong about a lot of other things... > >Tony > > >*********** >This is wrong on the face of it, because ever since Quintillian >people have been making disparaging comparisons of verse to poetry >based on a misunderstanding of Aristotle. Aristotle says that poetry >is something in addition to metered verse; Quintillian et al., right >through to Eliot's essay on Kipling, disparage verse as something >other than, even something antithetical to, poetry. > >Marcus > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 12 >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:14:02 -0500 >From: "Marcus Bales" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? >To: "Kent Johnson" , "NewPoetry: > Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Message-ID: <4225D83A.9529.48FA37 at localhost> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >Marcus Bales wrote: >>The same applies to the other theorists of the free verse and other >> avant garde techniques: the goal was, and has been, to "break the >> pentameter", to discard meter altogether because the new techniques > > were held to be better techniques.< > >Kent Johnson wrote: >> ... tendencies of the "New >> American" poetries, which looked back to the radical modernism of >> early century, hardly had a punkish attitude toward the tradition. >> Pound's call to break the pentameter and "make it new" is not a >> dismissal of meter's legitimacy, it is a call to push the the poetic >> function into new areas. Surely you don't claim that *Pound*, swooning >> fan of the Provencal and Anglo-Saxon, was against meters!< > >That's exactly what I think. His call, and FM Ford's and Amy Lowell's >WCW's and even Eliot's was precisely to discard meters. They hoped, >I'll admit, that they would discover or develop new meters -- but no >such new meters were discovered or developed. I've read the >manifestos and theories about free verse "meters", and a twistier >collection of special pleading I haven't seen since I read Aquinas. > >> You seem to believe, Marcus, that any poetry not written in a handily >> recognizable sequence of stresses should be lumped together under the >> category of "prose." What you don't seem to realize (this is what I >> gather from your posts, anyway) is that there has been a tendency of >> experiment in Anglo-American poetry (and other languages, of course) >> that, while not bound by traditional meters, has been guided by a >> rigorously formal outlook and practice. And this has led to poetic >> expressions much further removed from prose effects than, for example, >> New Formalist writings. > >It would be pretty to think so. > >Got an example? > >Kent Johnson wrote: >> ... I'm not saying anything goes. "Form," rather, is always in >> dispute.< > >This is inappropriate substitution of "form" for "meter" in the >discussion we're having. I make no arguments for or against form. You >seem to be saying that you think "form" and "meter" are the same >thing; I don't accept your substitution. > >Kent Johnson wrote: >> As in any art, it's when you legislate the protocols of >> "proper" poetic form that the life begins to go... Dixieland and Rag >> Time are great, inestimable contributions to jazz, and even though >> there are purists who argue passionately to the contrary, it's pretty >> clear that Jazz can't be reduced to them.< > >Hell, "Rhapsody in Blue" was once jazz and is now classical if you >let your categories get as fuzzy as all that. Much of this kind of >confusion is the result of people getting all fuzzy about the mystic >mythic value-laden-ness of their favorite subcategory. I'm trying to >forestall that value-laden-ness by urging that we distinguish poetry >from prose by the simple expedient of whether the work is in meter or >not, much as I'd say that we distinguish jazz from other music as we >distinguish improvisatory theater from written plays. > >Kent Johnson wrote: >> I think most readers see that it is you who are using the term in a >> reductive and value-laden way! You say, at the end of your post, that >> those who don't write consistently in traditional meters haven't >> "earned" the "cultural weight and significance" of Poetry. What could >> be more value-laden that that?< > >I say that in the context of criticizing the value-laden-ness of the >non-metric writer's insistence on claiming the title of Poet. I'm >pointing out that the reason that such writers make that claim is >because they value the title. My proposal is to take the title away >from them precisely because they want it so much. Let them earn ther >accolades by writing well in the way they write well, but call it >something other than "poetry". Call it something other because to >call it "poetry" is to cede the strategic ground before the >discussion begins, much as calling the tuning up of the orchaestra >"jazz" cedes all the important issues before the discussion begins. > >Kent Johnson wrote: >> You keep making your claim, trying to >> lock into a positivistic box a huge and wooly thing, whose very >> nature, as we seem best able to determine after 2500 years, is to >> resist final definition.< > >Not at all -- I want the discussion about what is good and bad about >this or that writing to center on what's good and bad about it, not >about what name it gets. To that end I'd like to make what name it >gets a simple, mechanical matter that isn't hard to decide so that >the real discussion, about what's valuable and what's not, and why, >can begin. > >But so long as we start off with the notion that anything anyone >writes is poetry if they say it is we're sunk when it comes to trying >to figure out what is good or bad about that writing; what is worth >spending time and effort on and what's not; what to recommend and >what to ignore. The Special Olympics notion of poetry, that it's all >good and just trying is enough and everyone gets a medal is demeaning >to anyone who takes accomplishment seriously. > >Marcus > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 13 >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:45:38 -0500 >From: "Marcus Bales" >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? >To: "Anthony Robinson" , "NewPoetry: > Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Message-ID: <4225DFA2.911.65EB08 at localhost> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >On 2 Mar 2005 at 12:33, Anthony Robinson wrote: >> So, Marcus, Quintillian, Sidney, Eliot, et al. are simply wrong? >> Sidney agrees with Aristotle that poetry is "making." It is invention, >> and it involves metaphor (which I won't rehash here in this small >> post). >> I'm not convinced that Aristotle says that poetry is restricted to >> writing in metrical verse--as I remember it's a bit more complicated >> than that. I don't have my books here, though, so I can't offer up >> evidence. In any case, though, why make Aristotle the governing >> authority here? He was certainly wrong about a lot of other things... > >What I'm pointing out is that the position that distinguishes verse >from prose, and disparages verse in the process, is a >misunderstanding, a misinterpretation, and later a conflation of >several misunderstandings. It is a view based on a mistake; to think >that it must therefore be right because the mistake is an old one is >as bad as to think that Aristotle must be right because his view is >even older. > >I don't say that Aristotle says that poetry is restricted to writing >in metrical writing; I say that Aristotle says that poetry is >metrical writing plus other things, but Aristotle's intention was to >define and defend what we now think of as "fiction", not "poetry" -- >as his usages make pretty clear. > >Marcus > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 14 >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:48:25 -0600 >From: Paul Lake >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate >To: >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >A well done piece on the office of poet laureate and the current wearer of >the laurels, Ted Kooser. > >Paul Lake > >http://www.cprw.com/SWilliams/kooser.htm > >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 15 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:19:20 -0500 >From: "Halvard Johnson" >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &" > >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >{ On 2 Mar 2005 at 16:54, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote: >{ > Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously >{ > adapted M Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, >{ > his original statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art >{ > depends on a definition of artist. >{ >{ Exactly -- something I've pointed out to Hal each time he brings this >{ tired banality up, and something he shrugs off each time with a so >{ what or a whatever. He pretends he's making an important distinction >{ between what people think Duchamp says and what Duchamp says, but >{ when you ask him what an artist is he'll say it's anyone who claims >{ to be an artist -- which means that Hal's purported distinction >{ between what Duchamp said and what Duchamp is thought to have said is >{ irrelevant even to Hal. >{ >{ Marcus > >Oh, Marcus, you big, adorable souffl?, I know it's a joke. Now go to your >room and pick up your toys. > >Hal "Theory, like mist on eyeglasses, > obscures vision." > --Charlie Chan >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 16 >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:50:54 -0600 >From: "Kent Johnson" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose effects >To: >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >Kent said: > >>What you don't seem to realize (this is what I >> gather from your posts, anyway) is that there has been a tendency of >> experiment in Anglo-American poetry (and other languages, of course) >> that, while not bound by traditional meters, has been guided by a >> rigorously formal outlook and practice. And this has led to poetic >> expressions much further removed from prose effects than, for >>example, New Formalist writings. > >Marcus replied: > >>>It would be pretty to think so. Got an example? > >Um, Jackson Mac Low, Leslie Scalapino, John Cage, OULIPO, Christian >Bok, Steve McCaffery, Susan Howe, Robert Duncan, Robin Blaser, Alan >Davies, Charles Stein, Bruce Andrews, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Clark >Coolidge, Michael Palmer, Louis Zukofsky, Robert Creeley, Charles Olson, >Ronald Johnson, Gustaf Sobin, Jack Spicer, Gertrude Stein, Ezra Pound, >(I'm just typing away here. Do you know some of these poets? I'm sure >you do. Maybe you could explain how their writing more approximates the >effects of "prose" than that of, say, Dana Gioia). > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 17 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:38:12 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? or art, for that matter? >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <128.57a81c49.2f57a864 at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >R, >as I heard a folk singer quip recently, "How do you get >a $1M from folk music?"...answering himself: "Start with $2M. >So, no, it has nothing to do with marketing. The art exists even >it's a bunch of loose ms. pages in a locked drawer. But its >existence is inert and not alive until it is exposed to others >in the culture. Art is a transactional concept involving two >or however few, those who tacitly or explicitly recognize it as >art. >Finnegan > >In a message dated 3/2/2005 3:04:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, >shkodrov at yahoo.com writes: > >> >> Isn't the (b) you are talking about just marketing? "Realization" of art is >> brought to politics and marketing. Duchamp is trying to visualize this >> phenomenon. Think of Manzoni's *Merda d'artista*... >> >> art --> money --> shit >> but then... shit seen as art... IS art! >> >> And it doesn't matter if Marcus (or someone else!) agrees with it or not... >> >> >> R. >> >> JforJames at aol.com wrote: >> >> >> As with his ready-mades, Duchamp is being intentionally provocative, >>> but he's not wrongheaded. (a) The artists assert the art. (He >>> or she may be only asserting it privately, idiosyncratically. Then (b) > >> the assertion is recognized as art or it is not. Duchamp is addressing >>> 'a'; but 'b' must follow for art to be realized. >>> Art, in certain way, only exists as a shared concept or a transaction >>> between at least two people. (As it widens it scope of acceptance it > >> increases its claim to the term 'art' , or 'poetry'.) >>> Emily Dickinson's poetry became 'poetry' when some folks thought >>> it worthwhile to save and then to publish her bundled sheaves. >>> It didn't exist as art before finding its audience, however small at >>> first. >>> The history of the avant-garde is one of small cadre of individuals >>> influencing the standard of "What is art?" at large. This may >>> happen quickly in a revolutionary way or more gradually by >>> infiltrating the culture slowly. >>> Finnegan >>> >>> >>> >>> ; >>> In a message dated 3/2/2005 11:54:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, > >> m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: >>> >>> >>> Thanks for pointing that out, Halvard - yes, I've unconsciously adapted >>>> M >>>> Duchamp to fit in with my own opinions. On closer reading, his original >>>> statement is a witty nullity since its definition of art depends on a >>>> definition of artist. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050302/ade8102c/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 18 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:11:11 -0500 >From: "Bob Grumman" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <01cf01c51f85$81cb4160$8db831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > >> An interesting article about MacArthur "genius grants" in literature. The >> article says that data shows that the grants result in a radical DECREASE >> in >> literary output and quality. >> >> Paul Lake > >By whom? The people who get them or the the people who are discouraged >because such morons get them? If the former, it may be because the few >MacArthur Grants that go to superior writers go to has-beens; the rest go to >lifetime mediocrities. > >--Bob G. > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 19 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:19:00 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <1e5.36ed023f.2f57b1f4 at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >In a message dated 3/2/2005 7:11:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, >bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >> By whom? The people who get them or the the people who are discouraged >> because such morons get them? If the former, it may be because the few >> MacArthur Grants that go to superior writers go to has-beens; the rest go to >> >> lifetime mediocrities. >> >> > >Bob, it's time to name names. >Anyway, It can't be surprise or even a disappointment >to an obscure vispoet that he/she wasn't tapped for big handout. >I think of a Reader's Digest Sweepstakes entrant waiting by his >mailbox each...it breaks my heart. >Finnegan >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050302/f650907a/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 20 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:10:51 -0500 >From: "Bob Grumman" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Genius Grants >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <029f01c51f8d$d7df90d0$8db831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >In a message dated 3/2/2005 7:11:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, >bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >By whom? The people who get them or the the people who are >discouraged because such morons get them? If the former, it may be >because the few MacArthur Grants that go to superior writers go to >has-beens; the rest go to >lifetime mediocrities. > > > > > Bob, it's time to name names. > Anyway, It can't be surprise or even a disappointment > to an obscure vispoet that he/she wasn't tapped for big handout. I >think of a Reader's Digest Sweepstakes entrant waiting by his >mailbox each...it breaks my heart. > Finnegan > > Name what names? I don't have a list of MacArthur grantees, but >know that just about everytime I see one's name, I quickly forget it. > As for the many poets superior to the poets getting MacArthurs, >I've named them enough. But, yes, I'm certainly among them. > > I don't wait for grants or awards, nor work less hard because >(unsurprisingly) few poets whose work I so much as slightly respect >get them (until they're too old for it to make any difference for >them), but I do get discouraged when I think of all I feel I could >do if I didn't have to throw away so much of my life earning enough >for the basic necessities, so can imagine poets in my position >feeling that because they'll never have the time they need to reach >their potential, thanks to the indifference or emnity of the poetry >establishment, there's no point in continuing to try to. > > --Bob G. >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050302/5b67dc36/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 21 >Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:02:37 -0500 >From: "Bob Grumman" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Prose effects >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <030401c51f9d$74d94610$8db831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > > >> Kent said: >> >>>What you don't seem to realize (this is what I >>> gather from your posts, anyway) is that there has been a tendency of >>> experiment in Anglo-American poetry (and other languages, of course) >>> that, while not bound by traditional meters, has been guided by a >>> rigorously formal outlook and practice. And this has led to poetic >>> expressions much further removed from prose effects than, for >>>example, New Formalist writings. >> >> Marcus replied: >> >>>>It would be pretty to think so. Got an example? >> >> Um, Jackson Mac Low, Leslie Scalapino, John Cage, OULIPO, Christian >> Bok, Steve McCaffery, Susan Howe, Robert Duncan, Robin Blaser, Alan >> Davies, Charles Stein, Bruce Andrews, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Clark >> Coolidge, Michael Palmer, Louis Zukofsky, Robert Creeley, Charles Olson, >> Ronald Johnson, Gustaf Sobin, Jack Spicer, Gertrude Stein, Ezra Pound, >> (I'm just typing away here. Do you know some of these poets? I'm sure >> you do. Maybe you could explain how their writing more approximates the >> effects of "prose" than that of, say, Dana Gioia). > >Amusing how you leave out the ones most obviously more different from prose >than the formalists: the visual poets. (I think of Jackson Mac Low as a >sound poet but maybe he was a visual poet, too. Oh, and you got Ronald >Johnson.) > >--Bob G. > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 22 >Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:38:08 -0600 >From: David Graham >Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >The MacArthur Foundation's web site has lots of info if you're wondering who >gets these awards, why, etc. You can browse by name, year, field, and so >on. > >http://www.macfdn.org/programs/fel/fellows/ > >Pasted below is the list of poets who have received "genius" grants since >1981. I guess we could have a discussion about individual names (Derek >Walcott, John Ashbery, Adrienne Rich, Thom Gunn) along the lines of: >mediocrities or has-beens?. > >But on second thought, let's not. > >What I find notable in the list of recipients is that, more often than most >prizes or granting agencies, they do seem to seek out some real dark horses >on a regular basis. Sure, they do pick folks like Ashbery or Strand, who >are overstuffed with honors, but they have also showered their blessings on >poets such as Linda Bierds, Douglas Crase, Richard Kenney, Lucia Perillo, >Ann Lauterbach, and Jay Wright, who aren't exactly on every syllabus even >now, or in many of the big teaching anthologies. > >It could probably be justly said that their literary picks have not been too >venturesome aesthetically, as compared to some of their selections in >non-literary fields. Few truly avant garde poets, yes. > >Ashbery, John >Bierds, Linda >Brodsky, Joseph >Carson, Anne >Clampitt, Amy >Crase, Douglas >Feldman, Irving >Fulton, Alice >Graham, Jorie >Grossman, Allen >Gunn, James E. >Hass, Robert >Hine, Daryl >Hirsch, Edward >Hollander, John >Howard, Richard >Kenney, Richard >Kinnell, Galway >Lauterbach, Ann >Leithauser, Brad >McGrath, Campbell >Moss, Thylias >Perillo, Lucia >Powell, Jim >Ramanujan, A. K. >Rich, Adrienne >Simic, Charles >Strand, Mark >Swenson, May >Walcott, Derek >Warren, Robert Penn >Wilner, Eleanor >Wright, C.D. >Wright, Jay > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >==================================================== > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 23 >Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:17:45 -0500 >From: "Marcus Bales" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Prose effects >To: "Kent Johnson" , "NewPoetry: > Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Message-ID: <4226BA19.10669.C7A79 at localhost> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >> Kent said: >> >What you don't seem to realize (this is what I >> > gather from your posts, anyway) is that there has been a tendency of >> > experiment in Anglo-American poetry (and other languages, of course) >> > that, while not bound by traditional meters, has been guided by a >> > rigorously formal outlook and practice. And this has led to poetic >> > expressions much further removed from prose effects than, for >> >example, New Formalist writings. > >> Marcus replied: >> >>It would be pretty to think so. Got an example? > >Kent said: >> Um, Jackson Mac Low, Leslie Scalapino, John Cage, OULIPO, Christian >> Bok, Steve McCaffery, Susan Howe, Robert Duncan, Robin Blaser, Alan >> Davies, Charles Stein, Bruce Andrews, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Clark >> Coolidge, Michael Palmer, Louis Zukofsky, Robert Creeley, Charles >> Olson, Ronald Johnson, Gustaf Sobin, Jack Spicer, Gertrude Stein, Ezra >> Pound, (I'm just typing away here. Do you know some of these poets? >> I'm sure you do. Maybe you could explain how their writing more >> approximates the effects of "prose" than that of, say, Dana Gioia). > >Got an example? A specific example? An example you can use to show >why a specific piece of work is poetry and not prose? > >Marcus > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 24 >Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:24:32 -0500 >From: "Bob Grumman" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <007401c51feb$f4972950$82b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > >I often overstate, as I suppose some of you have noticed. While I don't >think much of the poetry of Derek >Walcott, John Ashbery, Adrienne Rich, or Thom Gunn, I wouldn't call them >mediocrities. I wouldn't call any of them major, though--and am pretty >confident that, except perhaps for Walcott, they got their grants long after >they'd gotten substantial recognition elsewhere, and in most cases, after >they'd done their best work. > >--Bob G. > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 25 >Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:26:53 -0500 >From: "Bob Grumman" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <008301c51fec$48bc2580$82b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > >> It could probably be justly said that their literary picks have not been >> too >> venturesome aesthetically, as compared to some of their selections in >> non-literary fields. Few truly avant garde poets, yes. > >I doubt they've been venturesome in any field. This would not be so irksome >if the grants were not advertised as being for "mavericks" during the first >years of the foundation. > >--Bob G. > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 26 >Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:30:21 -0500 >From: "Marcus Bales" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is poetry? >To: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > & Views" >Message-ID: <4226CB1D.15148.14D1F8 at localhost> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >On 2 Mar 2005 at 15:53, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote: >> I think I've already said all I can say about this debate. What I >> really think is basically what Marcel Duchamp said in that quote about >> "if someone says it's art, it's art."< > >But if you really accept this, then you have to face the >consequences: what about a rapist who says his rapes are art? A >murderer or torturer who says his or her work is art? If art is >anything someone says it is, then you must support torture, for >example, as an art if someone says it is. What about war? Isn't there >an 'art of war'? How can you be opposed to art, Michael, even though >the art is war or rape or murder or torture? Clearly, it is not the >case that "anything anyone says is art is art" or else we'd have to >face those consequences. So we know there must be a line between art >and non-art. The question "What is poetry" really seeks to make that >line clear, or clearer -- and it cannot be reasonably answered by >saying "Anything is art that any one says is art". > >> Regarding the specifics, there >> are twenty arguments for rejecting Marcus's proposal, but the killing >> one is what Bob said about six messages back, that it's totally >> impractical. < > >It's not impractical, it's just difficult. > >> e.g. Karin Boye is in many ways a traditional poet for her time. (She >> was also a novelist.) She published five volumes of what everyone but >> Marcus is content to call "poetry". The first three were predominantly >> metrical - maybe about 80% - the last two are about half-and-half >> between free verse and metrical. Some of her greatest (what the rest >> of us call) poems are metrical, others not. >> A very typical biography like this would be almost inexpressible in >> Balesian English. "Boye's first collection of >> mixed-poetry-and-short-prose was published in 1922... etc." It would >> tell a perfectly spurious story in which distinctions are made between >> different works by authors who themselves saw none.< > >But that's the case now. What Aristotle called "poetry" we now call >"drama" or "fiction". Aeschylus thought of himself as a poet, but we >think of him as a playwright, for the same work. The story that >"Boye's first collection of mixed poetry and short prose ..." tells >is not "perfectly spurious" at all. To be sure, it tells a good bit >about the critic's view of what's poetry and what's not right up >front, but lots of sentences do that, and why shouldn't they? > >> ... In any account of >> literary history the Balesian would constantly have to resort to >> expressions like "what the people of that era thought of as poems".< > >Just so -- as we should say, but do not say, about Aeschylus, for >example. Instead the distinctions that were made or not made by the >contemporaries of "poets" are often conflated or picked out by later >audiences. This is all nothing new. The notions either that a later >audience would evaluate a piece of work as poetry or not poetry, or >that a contemporary audience would do the opposite, is a reasonable >objection to either practice is simply ludicrous. It's done all the >time, on purpose for art-politics reasons, world-politics reasons, >by accident, and out of ignorance. Of course we ought to say "what >the people of that era thought of as poems" -- though more often than >not we do not say it, most often out of art-politics or ignorance. > >> And to make all of this even more futile, the perfectly good word >> "verse" already exists to do the (occasionally useful) work that >> Marcus wants "poetry" to do.< > >No, it does not -- the word "verse" is derogatory. > >Marcus > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 27 >Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:31:25 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: [New-Poetry] WBY on verse & an aside on "meant" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >W.B. Yeats: > >I'm going to read my poems with great emphasis >upon their rhythms.& that may seem strange if >you're not used to it. I remember the great English >poet William Morris coming in a rage out of some >lecture hall, where somebody had recited a passage >out of his "Sea-gulls of Alston(?)." "It gave me >a devil of a lot of trouble," said Morris, "to get >that thing into verse." It gave me a devil of a lot >of trouble to get into verse the poems I'm going >to read and that is why I am not going to read >them as if they were prose. > >(WBY goes on to introduce his reading of >"Lake Isle of Innisfree") > >I think there is only one obscurity in the poem; >I speak of noon as "a purple glow." I must have >meant by that the reflection of heather in the water. > > >>From a BBC broadcast 1932, transcribed from >The Spoken Word, Poets, historic recordings >from the British Library Sound Archive. > >reviewed here??? >http://www.telegraphindia.com/1030509/asp/foreign/story_1952706.asp > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050303/f86c8d90/attachment.html > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5 >**************************************** -- From paul.lake Fri Mar 4 03:52:35 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 02:52:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] nea cd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/3/05 9:10 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" wrote: > In a message dated 3/3/2005 5:55:41 PM Central Standard Time, > JforJames at aol.com writes: >> >> In a message dated 3/3/2005 2:59:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> Thom424 at aol.com writes: >> > has anyone received a copy of (sorry, I'm gonna get this wrong because the CD > is at my office) something called the National Poetry Recitation Competition > CD. It's a Gioa/NEA concept > > > > Thom, how do you get one of these...Did it come gratis in the mail? > Finnegan > > I have it. Haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. Probably can be ordered > at the NEA website. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > I haven?t gotten or heard the NEA recitation cd, but I do remember Dana telling me his plans to institute the recitation competition some time ago. Dana has had plans to boost interest in poetry for a good long time now and thinks these things out well in advance of their final appearance. It?s good having a poet running the NEA. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Fri Mar 4 14:09:55 2005 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:09:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: Message-ID: <01c501c520ed$c0805120$e80d9942@Helen> I can't believe you said that David. Let's start with Daryl Hine - does anybody remember who is is? No fair checking on line. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 12:38 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows > The MacArthur Foundation's web site has lots of info if you're wondering > who > gets these awards, why, etc. You can browse by name, year, field, and so > on. > > http://www.macfdn.org/programs/fel/fellows/ > > Pasted below is the list of poets who have received "genius" grants since > 1981. I guess we could have a discussion about individual names (Derek > Walcott, John Ashbery, Adrienne Rich, Thom Gunn) along the lines of: > mediocrities or has-beens?. > > But on second thought, let's not. > > What I find notable in the list of recipients is that, more often than > most > prizes or granting agencies, they do seem to seek out some real dark > horses > on a regular basis. Sure, they do pick folks like Ashbery or Strand, who > are overstuffed with honors, but they have also showered their blessings > on > poets such as Linda Bierds, Douglas Crase, Richard Kenney, Lucia Perillo, > Ann Lauterbach, and Jay Wright, who aren't exactly on every syllabus even > now, or in many of the big teaching anthologies. > > It could probably be justly said that their literary picks have not been > too > venturesome aesthetically, as compared to some of their selections in > non-literary fields. Few truly avant garde poets, yes. > > Ashbery, John > Bierds, Linda > Brodsky, Joseph > Carson, Anne > Clampitt, Amy > Crase, Douglas > Feldman, Irving > Fulton, Alice > Graham, Jorie > Grossman, Allen > Gunn, James E. > Hass, Robert > Hine, Daryl > Hirsch, Edward > Hollander, John > Howard, Richard > Kenney, Richard > Kinnell, Galway > Lauterbach, Ann > Leithauser, Brad > McGrath, Campbell > Moss, Thylias > Perillo, Lucia > Powell, Jim > Ramanujan, A. K. > Rich, Adrienne > Simic, Charles > Strand, Mark > Swenson, May > Walcott, Derek > Warren, Robert Penn > Wilner, Eleanor > Wright, C.D. > Wright, Jay > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From hruggier Fri Mar 4 14:10:32 2005 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:10:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] headphones, anyone? References: <45.233aa594.2f58c325@aol.com> Message-ID: <01d401c520ed$d6d5a1f0$e80d9942@Helen> isn't that bazooka? ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] headphones, anyone? In a message dated 3/3/2005 1:28:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: quoting Ron Silliman... Robert Bly, reading his poem, then telling you what it means in the most reductive possible terms before reading it again, strumming now on a dulcimer?< I thought Bly's main instrument was the bazouki? http://surfcitymusic.com/Mandolins/mandolin_6.html And though it's fallen out of fashion in modern times, poetry & music were traditionally twins joined at the hip. A languauge poet would be, by nature, subverting meaning at every turn, so there isn't much too much to say before or after the poem, reductive, instructive or otherwise. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Fri Mar 4 14:12:43 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:12:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Poetry CD Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9ED@URANIUM.ripon.college> I've been all over the NEA.gov site without luck--looking for the poetry recitation CD that's been mentioned. Does anyone have info on its exact title and/or where it's to be found? By the way, I have the *Operation Homecoming: Writing the Wartime Experience* CD, an audio program including writers such as Louis Simpson, Richard Wilbur, Marilyn Nelson, and Tobias Wolff. Info on that, and the forthcoming anthology, is on the NEA site: http://www.arts.endow.gov/national/homecoming/index.html ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Fri Mar 4 14:14:41 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:14:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9EE@URANIUM.ripon.college> > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Helen Ruggieri > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Friday, March 4, 2005 1:09 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows > > I can't believe you said that David. > > Can't believe I said *what*, Helen? Of course I remember Daryl Hine--he rejected me many times when he was editor of Poetry. > Let's start with Daryl Hine - does anybody remember who is is? > No fair checking on line. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 12:38 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows > > > > The MacArthur Foundation's web site has lots of info if you're wondering > > who > > gets these awards, why, etc. You can browse by name, year, field, and so > > on. > > > > http://www.macfdn.org/programs/fel/fellows/ > > > > Pasted below is the list of poets who have received "genius" grants since > > 1981. I guess we could have a discussion about individual names (Derek > > Walcott, John Ashbery, Adrienne Rich, Thom Gunn) along the lines of: > > mediocrities or has-beens?. > > > > But on second thought, let's not. > > > > What I find notable in the list of recipients is that, more often than > > most > > prizes or granting agencies, they do seem to seek out some real dark > > horses > > on a regular basis. Sure, they do pick folks like Ashbery or Strand, who > > are overstuffed with honors, but they have also showered their blessings > > on > > poets such as Linda Bierds, Douglas Crase, Richard Kenney, Lucia Perillo, > > Ann Lauterbach, and Jay Wright, who aren't exactly on every syllabus even > > now, or in many of the big teaching anthologies. > > > > It could probably be justly said that their literary picks have not been > > too > > venturesome aesthetically, as compared to some of their selections in > > non-literary fields. Few truly avant garde poets, yes. > > > > Ashbery, John > > Bierds, Linda > > Brodsky, Joseph > > Carson, Anne > > Clampitt, Amy > > Crase, Douglas > > Feldman, Irving > > Fulton, Alice > > Graham, Jorie > > Grossman, Allen > > Gunn, James E. > > Hass, Robert > > Hine, Daryl > > Hirsch, Edward > > Hollander, John > > Howard, Richard > > Kenney, Richard > > Kinnell, Galway > > Lauterbach, Ann > > Leithauser, Brad > > McGrath, Campbell > > Moss, Thylias > > Perillo, Lucia > > Powell, Jim > > Ramanujan, A. K. > > Rich, Adrienne > > Simic, Charles > > Strand, Mark > > Swenson, May > > Walcott, Derek > > Warren, Robert Penn > > Wilner, Eleanor > > Wright, C.D. > > Wright, Jay > > > > > ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB Fri Mar 4 14:17:28 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:17:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Poetry CD Message-ID: <64.503c39df.2f5a0e48@aol.com> I could not find it either. Please advice. But, thanks for the tip about the Operation Homecoming CD! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB Fri Mar 4 14:18:14 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:18:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Poetry CD Message-ID: Advise. . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Fri Mar 4 14:43:08 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:43:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] headphones, anyone? In-Reply-To: <01d401c520ed$d6d5a1f0$e80d9942@Helen> References: <45.233aa594.2f58c325@aol.com> <01d401c520ed$d6d5a1f0$e80d9942@Helen> Message-ID: <11935750.1109965388994.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Roger Landes, one of the best American bouzouki players, has a picture of himself at about nine on his CD Dragon Reels, aiming a toy bozooka -- But the bouzouki is not a mandolin. It and the mandolin are both derived from the Arab oud, the bouzouki in Greece and the mandolin in Italy as the smallest member of the lute family. The bouzouki Bly plays is strung and tuned Irish style, mostly in fifths, with the strings in each of the four pairs tuned in unison. The most common Greek tuning is a whole-step down from the top four strings of the guitar, and the two bass pairs have octave strings like those on a 12-string guitar. On Friday, March 04, 2005, at 02:11PM, Helen Ruggieri wrote: > ><>_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon Fri Mar 4 14:58:25 2005 From: clitophon (Paul Murphy) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:58:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] prosody In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050304195825.30266.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> has anyone on this list studied prosody? I know that there are basically two forms, syllabic and stress timed but are there are any others (alliterative...) Are these connected to their languages, ie is Norse or Old English strongly alliterative anyway? Or does Latin strongly resist stress patterns? Is there a connection between this and inflected and uninflected languages? How does the prosody of agglutenated languages work? Does anyone think that there is any point in doing any work in this area since any innovation in English in regard to these would be indescribably obscure and irrelevant to the vast majority of people whom we know don't generally read poetry anyway? What do listees think of these issues of relevance, accessibility and audience? best wishes, Paul Murphy __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From mandolin Fri Mar 4 15:08:47 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:08:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] prosody In-Reply-To: <20050304195825.30266.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050304195825.30266.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9905140.1109966927462.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Friday, March 04, 2005, at 02:59PM, Paul Murphy wrote: >has anyone on this list studied prosody? I know that >there are basically two forms, syllabic and stress >timed but are there are any others (alliterative...) >Are these connected to their languages, ie is Norse or >Old English strongly alliterative anyway? Or does >Latin strongly resist stress patterns? Is there a >connection between this and inflected and uninflected >languages? How does the prosody of agglutenated >languages work? >Does anyone think that there is any point in doing any >work in this area since any innovation in English in >regard to these would be indescribably obscure and >irrelevant to the vast majority of people whom we know >don't generally read poetry anyway? What do listees >think of these issues of relevance, accessibility and >audience? >best wishes, >Paul Murphy > > Paul, have you been reading the list lately? You wouldn't deliberately prod the hornet's nest, would you? Try the archives for January and February ( http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ ) ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From clitophon Fri Mar 4 15:13:38 2005 From: clitophon (Paul Murphy) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:13:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] prosody In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050304201338.34284.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> sorry, I don't follow every thread can you update me, in brief? --- Mike Snider wrote: > > On Friday, March 04, 2005, at 02:59PM, Paul Murphy > wrote: > > >has anyone on this list studied prosody? I know > that > >there are basically two forms, syllabic and stress > >timed but are there are any others > (alliterative...) > >Are these connected to their languages, ie is Norse > or > >Old English strongly alliterative anyway? Or does > >Latin strongly resist stress patterns? Is there a > >connection between this and inflected and > uninflected > >languages? How does the prosody of agglutenated > >languages work? > >Does anyone think that there is any point in doing > any > >work in this area since any innovation in English > in > >regard to these would be indescribably obscure and > >irrelevant to the vast majority of people whom we > know > >don't generally read poetry anyway? What do > listees > >think of these issues of relevance, accessibility > and > >audience? > >best wishes, > >Paul Murphy > > > > > > Paul, have you been reading the list lately? You > wouldn't deliberately prod the hornet's nest, would > you? > > Try the archives for January and February ( > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ ) > ----- > > > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the > Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From Rsgwynn1 Fri Mar 4 15:27:47 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:27:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Poetry CD Message-ID: <1e3.36a53a11.2f5a1ec3@cs.com> In a message dated 3/4/2005 1:13:30 PM Central Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > > > I've been all over the NEA.gov site without luck--looking for the poetry > recitation CD that's been mentioned. > > Does anyone have info on its exact title and/or where it's to be found? > > I just called. Apparently they're just now receiving shipments of the cd, which is an audio guide featuring poets and actors. I've sent an email to Dan Stone, who produced the cd, and I'll let everyone know as soon as I hear from him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Fri Mar 4 15:41:43 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:41:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] prosody Message-ID: <12c.58da6f08.2f5a2207@cs.com> In a message dated 3/4/2005 1:59:21 PM Central Standard Time, clitophon at yahoo.com writes: > > X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE > has anyone on this list studied prosody? I know that > there are basically two forms, syllabic and stress > timed but are there are any others (alliterative...) > Are these connected to their languages, ie is Norse or > Old English strongly alliterative anyway? Or does > Latin strongly resist stress patterns? Is there a > connection between this and inflected and uninflected > languages? How does the prosody of agglutenated > languages work? > Does anyone think that there is any point in doing any > work in this area since any innovation in English in > regard to these would be indescribably obscure and > irrelevant to the vast majority of people whom we know > don't generally read poetry anyway? What do listees > think of these issues of relevance, accessibility and > audience? > best wishes, > Paul Murphy Fussell's Poetic Meter and Poetic Form, despite some flaws, is still a reliable way to enter this vast swamp. English basically recognizes three prosodies--syllabic, accentual, and accentual-syllabic. Other languages may use one or more of these; French prosody, for example, is syllabic, though there are all kinds of rules of elision to take into account when counting syllables. Jacques Barzun wrote a nice short book on the subject, which I can't locate at present. Greek and Latin prosodies were quantitative, measuring length of syllables instead of stress; they too evolved a lot of rules to govern the determination of whether a syllable is long or short. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Fri Mar 4 15:52:06 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:52:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] prosody Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9EF@URANIUM.ripon.college> Speaking of which, I wonder if the real prosodists among us might venture an opinion: what do you think of Pinsky's little book *The Sounds of Poetry*? ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > > Fussell's Poetic Meter and Poetic Form, despite some flaws, is still a reliable way to enter this vast swamp. English basically recognizes three prosodies--syllabic, accentual, and accentual-syllabic. Other languages may use one or more of these; French prosody, for example, is syllabic, though there are all kinds of rules of elision to take into account when counting syllables. Jacques Barzun wrote a nice short book on the subject, which I can't locate at present. Greek and Latin prosodies were quantitative, measuring length of syllables instead of stress; they too evolved a lot of rules to govern the determination of whether a syllable is long or short. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Fri Mar 4 16:00:26 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:00:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] prosody Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/2005 2:52:46 PM Central Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > Speaking of which, I wonder if the real prosodists among us might venture > an opinion: what do you think of Pinsky's little book *The Sounds of Poetry*? > > Haven't seen it. Any good? One thing I don't need is any more books on prosody! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Fri Mar 4 16:39:29 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:39:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] prosody Message-ID: <191.3a563179.2f5a2f91@aol.com> In a message dated 3/4/2005 3:52:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: Speaking of which, I wonder if the real prosodists among us might venture an opinion: what do you think of Pinsky's little book *The Sounds of Poetry*? ============================================ I've got that one...also a short one by Alfred Corn that's called _The Poem's Heartbeart_ (or something like that) which came out within the last decade; & I have the McCauley's book (an old but good one), too. I admire those who have made a study of such things (we obviously have more than a few experts on this list)...because I'm less vested in the practice, my knowledge of and facility with prosody are likewise less, I'm afraid. I think a revival of interest in prosody is a good thing...but god help (close your eyes MB & MS) poetry if it retreats from the advances and advantages of free verse. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Fri Mar 4 18:02:08 2005 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:02:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] prosody In-Reply-To: <191.3a563179.2f5a2f91@aol.com> References: <191.3a563179.2f5a2f91@aol.com> Message-ID: <43f932fb8261fa794a0e2d0a221ffbb4@mac.com> On Mar 4, 2005, at 4:39 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > thing...but god help (close your eyes MB & MS) poetry if > it retreats from the advances and advantages of free verse. > Finnegan > If MS is me, then I haven't been clear. I write free verse -- not much of it, and less all the time -- and I don't claim that poetry requires meter. I do think the dominance of free verse in parts of the last century was pretty much a disaster. I've been wrong before. Mike S From barry.spacks Sat Mar 5 00:31:24 2005 From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 21:31:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Truth, no? In-Reply-To: <200503021700.j22H020s003938@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050304213031.03ad2e48@incoming.verizon.net> "Artists are continually torn between the urgent need to communicate and the still more urgent need not to be found." -- D. W Winnicott -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 5 04:47:01 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:47:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Truth, no? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050304213031.03ad2e48@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <001801c52168$4811d210$31ab3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> This could easily describe me, and I think many on this list, thank you Barry! Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Spacks To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 6:31 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] A Truth, no? "Artists are continually torn between the urgent need to communicate and the still more urgent need not to be found." -- D. W Winnicott ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Sat Mar 5 07:40:20 2005 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 05:40:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] A Truth, no? Message-ID: <11758131.1110026420729.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Some do both at the same time in the same medium, don't you think? Then there's harmless play, such as my being in front of and behind this screen at the same time. - miJ -----Original Message----- From: Barry Spacks Sent: Mar 4, 2005 10:31 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] A Truth, no? "Artists are continually torn between the urgent need to communicate and the still more urgent need not to be found." -- D. W Winnicott From hruggier Sat Mar 5 11:13:30 2005 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:13:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9EE@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <00af01c5219e$46cbfc10$48dcf63f@Helen> MacArthur Fellowscalling Adrienne Rich etc. has beens and mediocrities - in certain places that would be a lynching event. I never sent to POETRY - knowing I shouldn't waste the money, but I heard him read once - a set of poems in the shape of a star and it's the only poetry reading (well, one or two others) that I actually fell asleep during. ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham, David To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 2:14 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows ---------- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Helen Ruggieri Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, March 4, 2005 1:09 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows I can't believe you said that David. Can't believe I said *what*, Helen? Of course I remember Daryl Hine--he rejected me many times when he was editor of Poetry. Let's start with Daryl Hine - does anybody remember who is is? No fair checking on line. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 12:38 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows > The MacArthur Foundation's web site has lots of info if you're wondering > who > gets these awards, why, etc. You can browse by name, year, field, and so > on. > > http://www.macfdn.org/programs/fel/fellows/ > > Pasted below is the list of poets who have received "genius" grants since > 1981. I guess we could have a discussion about individual names (Derek > Walcott, John Ashbery, Adrienne Rich, Thom Gunn) along the lines of: > mediocrities or has-beens?. > > But on second thought, let's not. > > What I find notable in the list of recipients is that, more often than > most > prizes or granting agencies, they do seem to seek out some real dark > horses > on a regular basis. Sure, they do pick folks like Ashbery or Strand, who > are overstuffed with honors, but they have also showered their blessings > on > poets such as Linda Bierds, Douglas Crase, Richard Kenney, Lucia Perillo, > Ann Lauterbach, and Jay Wright, who aren't exactly on every syllabus even > now, or in many of the big teaching anthologies. > > It could probably be justly said that their literary picks have not been > too > venturesome aesthetically, as compared to some of their selections in > non-literary fields. Few truly avant garde poets, yes. > > Ashbery, John > Bierds, Linda > Brodsky, Joseph > Carson, Anne > Clampitt, Amy > Crase, Douglas > Feldman, Irving > Fulton, Alice > Graham, Jorie > Grossman, Allen > Gunn, James E. > Hass, Robert > Hine, Daryl > Hirsch, Edward > Hollander, John > Howard, Richard > Kenney, Richard > Kinnell, Galway > Lauterbach, Ann > Leithauser, Brad > McGrath, Campbell > Moss, Thylias > Perillo, Lucia > Powell, Jim > Ramanujan, A. K. > Rich, Adrienne > Simic, Charles > Strand, Mark > Swenson, May > Walcott, Derek > Warren, Robert Penn > Wilner, Eleanor > Wright, C.D. > Wright, Jay > > ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sat Mar 5 11:25:13 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:25:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows In-Reply-To: <00af01c5219e$46cbfc10$48dcf63f@Helen> Message-ID: on 3/5/05 10:13 AM, Helen Ruggieri at hruggier at localnet.com wrote: calling Adrienne Rich etc. has beens and mediocrities - in certain places that would be a lynching event. ====================== Oh, OK. Wasn't me who did that. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 5 11:32:11 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:32:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9EE@URANIUM.ripon.college> <00af01c5219e$46cbfc10$48dcf63f@Helen> Message-ID: <002001c521a0$e1d67760$27ab3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> MacArthur FellowsI fell asleep with Michelangelo Antonioni present in a tiny room while watching his movies, he was in a wheel-chair at the time, some 12 years ago, here is a good pic of him: http://biografieonline.it/biografia.htm?BioID=997&biografia=Michelangelo+Antonioni point is that when I woke up I had a deep horizontal line in my forefront since I used the front wooden seat as a pillow, I must have slept for hours, if I snored nobody could remember, or were kind enough not to tell me! :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Helen Ruggieri To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows calling Adrienne Rich etc. has beens and mediocrities - in certain places that would be a lynching event. I never sent to POETRY - knowing I shouldn't waste the money, but I heard him read once - a set of poems in the shape of a star and it's the only poetry reading (well, one or two others) that I actually fell asleep during. ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham, David To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 2:14 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows ---------- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Helen Ruggieri Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, March 4, 2005 1:09 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows I can't believe you said that David. Can't believe I said *what*, Helen? Of course I remember Daryl Hine--he rejected me many times when he was editor of Poetry. Let's start with Daryl Hine - does anybody remember who is is? No fair checking on line. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 12:38 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows > The MacArthur Foundation's web site has lots of info if you're wondering > who > gets these awards, why, etc. You can browse by name, year, field, and so > on. > > http://www.macfdn.org/programs/fel/fellows/ > > Pasted below is the list of poets who have received "genius" grants since > 1981. I guess we could have a discussion about individual names (Derek > Walcott, John Ashbery, Adrienne Rich, Thom Gunn) along the lines of: > mediocrities or has-beens?. > > But on second thought, let's not. > > What I find notable in the list of recipients is that, more often than > most > prizes or granting agencies, they do seem to seek out some real dark > horses > on a regular basis. Sure, they do pick folks like Ashbery or Strand, who > are overstuffed with honors, but they have also showered their blessings > on > poets such as Linda Bierds, Douglas Crase, Richard Kenney, Lucia Perillo, > Ann Lauterbach, and Jay Wright, who aren't exactly on every syllabus even > now, or in many of the big teaching anthologies. > > It could probably be justly said that their literary picks have not been > too > venturesome aesthetically, as compared to some of their selections in > non-literary fields. Few truly avant garde poets, yes. > > Ashbery, John > Bierds, Linda > Brodsky, Joseph > Carson, Anne > Clampitt, Amy > Crase, Douglas > Feldman, Irving > Fulton, Alice > Graham, Jorie > Grossman, Allen > Gunn, James E. > Hass, Robert > Hine, Daryl > Hirsch, Edward > Hollander, John > Howard, Richard > Kenney, Richard > Kinnell, Galway > Lauterbach, Ann > Leithauser, Brad > McGrath, Campbell > Moss, Thylias > Perillo, Lucia > Powell, Jim > Ramanujan, A. K. > Rich, Adrienne > Simic, Charles > Strand, Mark > Swenson, May > Walcott, Derek > Warren, Robert Penn > Wilner, Eleanor > Wright, C.D. > Wright, Jay > > ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Sat Mar 5 13:31:21 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:31:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows Message-ID: Well, they got it right with this year's winner, C.D. Wright. From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 5 14:39:17 2005 From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:39:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the Unconscious Message-ID: <200503051935.j25JZi0r031504@wiz.cath.vt.edu> This page was sent to you by: anny.ballardini at tin.it. Once famously difficult, Ashbery now is part of our mental furniture. BOOKS / SUNDAY BOOK REVIEW | March 6, 2005 Mapping the Unconscious By CHARLES McGRATH John Ashbery is our great poet of the interior landscape ? all the bric-a-brac we carry around in the attic of our minds. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/books/review/06MCGR.html?ex=1110690000&en=871a169bd0752e96&ei=5070 ----------------- Advertisement -------------------------- /--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\ MILLIONS: FROM THE IMAGINATION OF DIRECTOR DANNY BOYLE Danny Boyle once again reinvents the cinematic experience with a heartwarming story of two little boys, faith, miracles... and lots of money. When a suitcase full of money falls out of the sky, it sets the boys on the adventure of a lifetime that leads them to realize that true wealth has nothing to do with money. MILLIONS opens in select cities March 11. http://www.foxsearchlight.com/millions/index_nyt.html ----------------- Advertisement -------------------------- 0 ---------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service. For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 5 14:50:05 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:50:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] same article Message-ID: <002901c521bc$873f2d80$71ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> Sorry for all those links and flags and what-have-you, here is the printer-friendly version. Mapping the Unconscious By CHARLES McGRATH WHERE SHALL I WANDER By John Ashbery. 81 pp. HarperCollins Publishers. $22.95. SELECTED PROSE By John Ashbery. Edited by Eugene Richie. 326 pp. University of Michigan Press. $29.95. ohn Ashbery is our great poet of the interior landscape -- all the bric-a-brac we carry around in the attic of our minds: imagery, quotations, movie dialogue, advertising jingles, song lyrics, snatches of overheard conversation. He's like Daffy Duck, if that's who the speaker is, in the poem ''Daffy Duck in Hollywood'': Something strange is creeping across me. La Celestina has only to warble the first few bars Of 'I Thought About You' or something mellow from Amadigi di Gaula for everything -- a mint-condition can Of Rumford's Baking Powder, a celluloid earring, Speedy Gonzales, the latest from Helen Topping Miller's fertile Escritoire, a sheaf of suggestive pix on greige, deckle-edged Stock -- to come clattering through. Ashbery has been curating and rearranging this material for so long now -- since 1953, when his first book, ''Turandot and Other Poems,'' came out -- that, almost without our noticing, he himself has become a part of our mental furniture. Once thought to be willfully ''difficult'' and impenetrably obscure, Ashbery now, at 77, seems almost avuncular, the grand old man of American poetry, both wise and ironic -- the party guest he describes in one of his new poems, who is ''bent on mischief and good works with equal zest.'' We may not know much Ashbery by heart, but we recognize his voice the instant we hear it, because nobody else writes this way: Attention, shoppers. From within the inverted commas of a strambotto, seditious whispering watermarks this time of day. Time to get out and, as they say, about. Ashbery has written more than 20 books -- most of them of consistently high quality, with the exception of the tedious ''Flow Chart'' -- and he has been around so long, reinventing himself over and over again, that the experience of reading him now is a little like re-enacting the central drama of most Ashbery poems: the experience of suddenly coming upon something that is both deeply familiar and more than a little strange. The publication of Ashbery's ''Selected Prose'' -- reviews, essays and occasional pieces written over the last 50 years -- is a reminder that from the beginning he set out to be different and not too easily understood. ''A poem that communicates something that's already known to a reader is not really communicating anything,'' he said once, and he was referring not just to content but to voice and tone. As a young writer, he consciously broke with the reigning poetic style of his time -- that of Robert Lowell and the ''confessional'' poets. More than that of any other American poet except Stevens, his early aesthetic was anchored in Paris (where he lived for 10 years), in surrealism and in the work of French experimental writers like Michel Butor and Raymond Roussel. In the early essays especially, there's a contrarian impulse; the young Ashbery practically brags about how much he loves the kind of writing that at first or even second glance doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Ashbery was also greatly influenced by painters like de Kooning, Pollock and Jasper Johns, and it's meant to be high praise, for example, when he talks about Johns's ''organized chaos'' and ''arbitrary order,'' and how his painting ''seems to defy critical analysis.'' His own work strove for just that kind of artful abandon. Some of the poems from his 1962 collection, ''The Tennis Court Oath,'' were so dense and allusive, and so full of wild leaps and jarring discontinuities, that they should have come with a surgeon general's warning. Reading them gave you a headache. But for all its complexity, Ashbery's poetic practice has often had a slangy, homespun quality, and over the years his idiom has come to feel more and more comfortable and familiar. No longer the dadaist enfant terrible, he has lightened up a little, and through sheer longevity and productivity he has taught us how to read him. ''I wanted to stretch the bond between language and communication but not to sever it,'' he said in 1995. Meanwhile, he has been outflanked on the difficulty scale by the Language Poets, for example (many of whom truly are incomprehensible), and even by Jorie Graham, next to whom he is a piece of cake. Ashbery's new book, ''Where Shall I Wander,'' is actually sort of mellow, the work of an aging poet who appears to have resigned himself to being, as he once said of his friend Frank O'Hara, ''too hip for the squares and too square for the hips.'' This is a less exuberant volume than, say, ''Your Name Here,'' which appeared in 2000. A number of poems begin not with his characteristic sense of adventure, of starting out fresh, but with a feeling of what one of them calls being in ''mid-parenthesis.'' There's often a vague feeling of loss or belatedness or impinging mortality -- an awareness that ''like all good things / life tends to go too long'' -- or else a sense of opportunity missed, choices not made. These poems tend to resolve themselves, though, not in mourning or in elegy but with a matter-of-fact resignation, as here at the end of a poem called ''More Feedback'': There's no turning back the man says, the one waiting to take tickets at the top of the gangplank. Still, in the past we could always wait a little. Indeed, we are waiting now. That's what happens. Or here, at the end of ''A Visit to the House of Fools'': A ruler is pasted against the wall to tell time by, but it's too late. The snow's knack for seeking out and penetrating crevices has finally become major news. Let's drink to that, and the tenacity of just seeming. Other poems involve a hint of crisis, a premonition of some loss or disaster. The very first poem in the book, for example, ''Ignorance of the Law Is No Excuse,'' begins: We were warned about spiders, and the occasional famine. We drove downtown to see our neighbors. None of them were home. And elsewhere, there are midnight forests, unlit fires, whistling winds, ebbing tides, skies ''cold and gray'' -- the whole romantic landscape seen in the flat, almost clinical light of hindsight. But the response is practical and accommodating, a recognition that things aren't as bad as they might have been; instead of full-fledged disaster there's just erosion and disappointment: All hell didn't break loose, it was like a rising psalm materializing like snow on an unseen mountain. All that was underfoot was good, but lost. Sometimes the poems even end on a note of pleasure and gratitude for whatever small happiness has been allotted and a gentle admonition against expecting too much: A certain satisfaction has been granted us. Sure, we keep coming back for more -- that's part of the 'human' aspect of the parade. And there are darker regions penciled in, that we should explore some time. For now, it's enough that this day is over. It brought its load of freshness, dropped it off and left. As for us, we're still here, aren't we? Nothing about ''Where Shall I Wander'' is cheerful, exactly. The jacket painting, by Caspar David Friedrich, is of a gloomy sunset over a field streaked with puddles. But the book isn't really melancholy either; the question posed by the title isn't so much urgent as idle and meditative. The younger Ashbery, the poet of ''Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror,'' was in fact much more death-haunted than this later one, who in place of the great, chilling clarifications, the glimpses into sublimity provided by such poets of old and middle age as Hardy, Larkin and Yeats (who is invoked here more than once), offers what amounts to a kind of humble, almost folksy stoicism: Things could be worse, be grateful for what you have -- or at least had. This is a muted, middle-register message and it makes at times for a muted, middle-register book. There are no clunkers here of the sort that used to turn up occasionally in Ashbery collections, but there is also not a single poem that is really large or overwhelming. The pleasure is in the little jokes and surprises (some of them literary, some of them slapstick), and in watching an old hand so effortlessly work so many tiny but elegant variations on familiar music. ''It's not as easy as it looks,'' he says in ''Sonnet: More of Same.'' ''Try to avoid the pattern that has been avoided, / the avoidance pattern. . . . It's like practicing a scale: at once different and never the same. / Ask not why we do these things. Ask why we find them meaningful.'' For variety he also includes several prose poems, including the long title piece. At least since ''Three Poems,'' which were in fact three long prose pieces -- a flood of sprawling, unparagraphed sentences -- Ashbery has been overly fond of this dandified, hybrid form so beloved by Rimbaud, Baudelaire and Gertrude Stein, among others he has acknowledged as influences. But the prose poem doesn't bring out the best in him (or in anybody else for that matter, except for poets like Charles Simic and Michael Benedikt, who treat the whole notion with a certain amount of irony). The long sentences, loose and rambling, let all the music leak out, and they often feel arbitrary, made up on the spot: Smack in the limousine, the friendly fog next door placed a hand on my shoulders, cementing matters. The professor looked wary. 'Flowers have helped pave roads,' he mooted. The ocean filling in for us. Too many vacant noon empires, without them you can't rule a hemisphere or be sated other than by watching. Our TV brains sit around us all brave and friendly, like docile pets. This isn't poetry; it's -- well, prose, and not particularly interesting prose at that. On the evidence of ''Selected Prose,'' in fact, it's tempting to conclude that prose is something Ashbery isn't especially good at, which makes him unusual among poets of his stature. Seamus Heaney and Derek Walcott, to take the two most obvious examples, are brilliant critics and essayists, with prose voices as original and as pleasing as their poetic ones. Ashbery's prose writing is clear and competent (he worked as a journalist and art critic for many years) but also dutiful and uninspired. Most of the pieces in this volume are the equivalent of literary chores -- reviews, introductions and the like -- and from them you get no sense of how much fun Ashbery can be or what a master of tone and voices he is, able to shift gears in a single line. Most of ''Selected Prose'' is written in an all-purpose monotone. Now that he has backed away a little from the grand manner of his earlier books, it has become clearer that Ashbery's great gift is for the burnishing of ordinary language, for the redeployment of slang and clich? in ways that render the prosaic more poetic. The writing of verse somehow releases him into limberness and playfulness and openness -- a happy state that is itself the subject of some of his best poems, and the opposite of what happens when he works the other way and allows poetic language to unravel dreamily into prose. The difference is in large part one of tautness and compression -- an intensity that propels him down the page, not across it. This is the Ashbery who now seems so much a part of our mental landscape -- the one who at times seems almost aphoristic in his compactness and precision. And for some of his readers at least, the only worrisome thing about this book, otherwise so wise and so assured, will be the title and the title poem, with their suggestion that the poet may now, near the end of his career, be drawn more to wandering than to getting anywhere. Charles McGrath, the former editor of the Book Review, is a writer at large at The Times. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 252 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 5 14:53:37 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:53:37 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence Message-ID: <003a01c521bd$06071470$71ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> If there are any providential besides _normal_ people, Mairead Byrne is out for you: Bob Perelman & Mairead Byrne read in Mike Gizzi & Mike Magee's DownCity Series at Tazza, Westminster Street, on Tuesday March 8th at 7pm. The Poetry Reading -- I mean what *is* that about??? Please forgive cross-posting Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwilsnac Sat Mar 5 17:57:34 2005 From: rwilsnac (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:57:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blas Manuel de Luna Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050305164514.01083a70@cyrus.undsmhs.net> There was no mention here earlier of Blas Manuel de Luna's debut on Poetry Daily (February 19), but it got some favorable attention from bloggers, and I thought this list ought to know about what caused the small stir. This is the title poem from his first book: Bent to the Earth They had hit Ruben with the high beams, had blinded him so that the van he was driving, full of Mexicans going to pick tomatoes, would have to stop. Ruben spun the van into an irrigation ditch, spun the five-year-old me awake to immigration officers, their batons already out, already looking for the soft spots on the body, to my mother being handcuffed and dragged to a van, to my father trying to show them our green cards. They let us go. But Alvaro was going back. So was his brother Fernando. So was their sister Sonia. Their mother did not escape, and so was going back. Their father was somewhere in the field, and was free. There were no great truths revealed to me then. No wisdom given to me by anyone. I was a child who had seen what a piece of polished wood could do to a face, who had seen his father about to lose the one he loved, who had lost some friends who would never return, who, later that morning, bent to the earth and went to work. by Blas Manuel de Luna Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From JforJames Sat Mar 5 19:01:47 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:01:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] not "Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Message-ID: <143.409ff274.2f5ba26b@aol.com> The Collected Poems of Wallace Stevens (1879-1955) Winner of the 1955 National Book Award for Poetry http://www.nationalbook.org/dirletter_wstevens.html "Now, at seventy-five, as I look back on the little that I have done and as I turn the pages of my own poems gathered together in a single volume, I have no choice except to paraphrase the old verse that says that it is not what I am, but what I aspired to be that comforts me. It is not what I have written but what I should have written that constitutes my true poems." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sun Mar 6 00:36:57 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:36:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: Message-ID: <045a01c5220e$83bf0e30$4ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Well, they got it right with this year's winner, C.D. Wright. You really don't think there are at least two hundred poets more deserving of the award than C.D. Wright, Kent? I mean, even despite all the risks she's taken as a poet. (No, I can't name two hundred more deserving than she, but assume there must be at least four times as many as I can name, considering the small percentage of poets I know about.) --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sun Mar 6 00:39:27 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:39:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: Message-ID: <046901c5220e$dd29ae30$4ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> MacArthur Fellowscalling Adrienne Rich etc. has beens and mediocrities - in certain places that would be a lynching event. ** Oh, OK. Wasn't me who did that. --David Graham No, it was I--but I later averred I'd been exaggerating. I do think Rich mediocre at best, though. --Bob Grumman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sun Mar 6 08:03:49 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:03:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the Unconscious References: <200503051935.j25JZi0r031504@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <00ba01c5224c$f10e43f0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> E-Mail ThisThanks for the article, Annie, however puerile it is (and how disgusting but unsurprising that the Times is giving us news of the long ago in poetry again--and how disgusting and unsurprising that I am taking them to task for it).. I wonder whose mental furniture Ashbery's stuff is part of--or how many serious readers he has. Certainly more than most poets, but does he have many? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sun Mar 6 11:06:13 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:06:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] These truths and confessions/Levine Message-ID: I've been reading around in Philip Levine's new collection, *Breath*, which has been mentioned here a time or two, as I recall. It will change no one's opinion of Levine, I'm confident, but Levine fans will definitely want to check it out. There are some poems at least as strong as anything he's done in the past couple decades--and, for a poet closing in on age 80, what more could one ask? The Two When he gets off work at Packard, they meet outside a diner on Grand Boulevard. He's tired, a bit depressed, and smelling the exhaustion on his own breath, he kisses her carefully on her left cheek. Early April, and the weather has not decided if this is spring, winter, or what. The two gaze upwards at the sky which gives nothing away: the low clouds break here and there and let in tiny slices of a pure blue heaven. The day is like us, she thinks; it hasn't decided what to become. The traffic light at Linwood goes from red to green and the trucks start up, so that when he says, "Would you like to eat?" she hears a jumble of words that mean nothing, though spiced with things she cannot believe, "wooden Jew" and "lucky meat." He's been up late, she thinks, he's tired of the job, perhaps tired of their morning meetings, but when he bows from the waist and holds the door open for her to enter the diner, and the thick odor of bacon frying and new potatoes greets them both, and taking heart she enters to peer through the thick cloud of tobacco smoke to the see if "their booth" is available. F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote that there were no second acts in America, but he knew neither this man nor this woman and no one else like them unless he stayed late at the office to test his famous one liner, "We keep you clean Muscatine," on the woman emptying his waste basket. Fitzgerald never wrote with someone present, except for this woman in a gray uniform whose comings and goings went unnoticed even on those December evenings she worked late while the snow fell silently on the window sills and the new fluorescent lights blinked on and off. Get back to the two, you say. Not who ordered poached eggs, who ordered only toast and coffee, who shared the bacon with the other, but what became of the two when this poem ended, whose arms held whom, who first said "I love you" and truly meant it, and who misunderstood the words, so longed for, and yet still so unexpected, and began suddenly to scream and curse until the waitress asked them both to leave. The Packard plant closed years before I left Detroit, the diner was burned to the ground in '67, two years before my oldest son fled to Sweden to escape the American dream. "And the lovers?" you ask. I wrote nothing about lovers. Take a look. Clouds, trucks, traffic lights, a diner, work, a wooden shoe, East Moline, poached eggs, the perfume of frying bacon, the chaos of language, the spices of spent breath after eight hours of night work. Can you hear all I feared and never dared to write? Why the two are more real than either you or me, why I never returned to keep them in my life, how little I now mean to myself or anyone else, what any of this could mean, where you found the patience to endure these truths and confessions? --Philip Levine. *Breath*. Knopf, 2004. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 6 11:18:17 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:18:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] These truths and confessions/Levine References: Message-ID: <004101c52268$1b854870$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> A very good poem, thank you Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 5:06 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] These truths and confessions/Levine > I've been reading around in Philip Levine's new collection, *Breath*, which > has been mentioned here a time or two, as I recall. It will change no one's > opinion of Levine, I'm confident, but Levine fans will definitely want to > check it out. There are some poems at least as strong as anything he's done > in the past couple decades--and, for a poet closing in on age 80, what more > could one ask? > > > > The Two > > When he gets off work at Packard, they meet > outside a diner on Grand Boulevard. He's tired, > a bit depressed, and smelling the exhaustion > on his own breath, he kisses her carefully > on her left cheek. Early April, and the weather > has not decided if this is spring, winter, or what. > The two gaze upwards at the sky which gives > nothing away: the low clouds break here and there > and let in tiny slices of a pure blue heaven. > The day is like us, she thinks; it hasn't decided > what to become. The traffic light at Linwood > goes from red to green and the trucks start up, > so that when he says, "Would you like to eat?" > she hears a jumble of words that mean nothing, > though spiced with things she cannot believe, > "wooden Jew" and "lucky meat." He's been up > late, she thinks, he's tired of the job, perhaps tired > of their morning meetings, but when he bows > from the waist and holds the door open > for her to enter the diner, and the thick > odor of bacon frying and new potatoes > greets them both, and taking heart she enters > to peer through the thick cloud of tobacco smoke > to the see if "their booth" is available. > F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote that there were no > second acts in America, but he knew neither > this man nor this woman and no one else > like them unless he stayed late at the office > to test his famous one liner, "We keep you clean > Muscatine," on the woman emptying > his waste basket. Fitzgerald never wrote > with someone present, except for this woman > in a gray uniform whose comings and goings > went unnoticed even on those December evenings > she worked late while the snow fell silently > on the window sills and the new fluorescent lights > blinked on and off. Get back to the two, you say. > Not who ordered poached eggs, who ordered > only toast and coffee, who shared the bacon > with the other, but what became of the two > when this poem ended, whose arms held whom, > who first said "I love you" and truly meant it, > and who misunderstood the words, so longed > for, and yet still so unexpected, and began > suddenly to scream and curse until the waitress > asked them both to leave. The Packard plant closed > years before I left Detroit, the diner was burned > to the ground in '67, two years before my oldest son > fled to Sweden to escape the American dream. > "And the lovers?" you ask. I wrote nothing about lovers. > Take a look. Clouds, trucks, traffic lights, a diner, work, > a wooden shoe, East Moline, poached eggs, the perfume > of frying bacon, the chaos of language, the spices > of spent breath after eight hours of night work. > Can you hear all I feared and never dared to write? > Why the two are more real than either you or me, > why I never returned to keep them in my life, > how little I now mean to myself or anyone else, > what any of this could mean, where you found > the patience to endure these truths and confessions? > > --Philip Levine. *Breath*. Knopf, 2004. > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad Sun Mar 6 11:30:04 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:30:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence References: <003a01c521bd$06071470$71ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <002601c52269$c26bead0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Anny - has reading too much Ashbery caused you to arrive at the decision not to post the city that Westminster Street is in? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence If there are any providential besides _normal_ people, Mairead Byrne is out for you: Bob Perelman & Mairead Byrne read in Mike Gizzi & Mike Magee's DownCity Series at Tazza, Westminster Street, on Tuesday March 8th at 7pm. The Poetry Reading -- I mean what *is* that about??? Please forgive cross-posting Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 6 11:37:58 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:37:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence References: <003a01c521bd$06071470$71ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> <002601c52269$c26bead0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <005c01c5226a$db5e1120$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Dear Old Mole, it is in Providence as I wrote in the title, which town should be somewhere near N.Y., I saw plenty of pics thanks to a link Henry Gould (another inhabitant of Providence) put on his blog. But you got it right with me being somewhat strange, I just watched The Serpent and The Rainbow by Wes Craven, and it is nice to be back with _people_, mails are people after all, take care, Anny From: The Old Mole Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] in Providence Anny - has reading too much Ashbery caused you to arrive at the decision not to post the city that Westminster Street is in? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence If there are any providential besides _normal_ people, Mairead Byrne is out for you: Bob Perelman & Mairead Byrne read in Mike Gizzi & Mike Magee's DownCity Series at Tazza, Westminster Street, on Tuesday March 8th at 7pm. The Poetry Reading -- I mean what *is* that about??? Please forgive cross-posting Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Sun Mar 6 11:40:07 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:40:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: <045a01c5220e$83bf0e30$4ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004e01c5226b$29dd9640$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Deserving in the abstract? Deserving of this particular award? Deserving what? Deserving by what criteria? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows > > >> Well, they got it right with this year's winner, C.D. Wright. > > You really don't think there are at least two hundred poets more deserving > of the award than C.D. Wright, Kent? I mean, even despite all the risks > she's taken as a poet. (No, I can't name two hundred more deserving than > she, but assume there must be at least four times as many as I can name, > considering the small percentage of poets I know about.) > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Sun Mar 6 11:43:22 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:43:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] These truths and confessions/Levine References: <004101c52268$1b854870$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <007001c5226b$9e39cb80$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Yes. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anny Ballardini" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] These truths and confessions/Levine >A very good poem, thank you > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather > admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 5:06 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] These truths and confessions/Levine > > >> I've been reading around in Philip Levine's new collection, *Breath*, > which >> has been mentioned here a time or two, as I recall. It will change no > one's >> opinion of Levine, I'm confident, but Levine fans will definitely want to >> check it out. There are some poems at least as strong as anything he's > done >> in the past couple decades--and, for a poet closing in on age 80, what > more >> could one ask? >> >> >> >> The Two >> >> When he gets off work at Packard, they meet >> outside a diner on Grand Boulevard. He's tired, >> a bit depressed, and smelling the exhaustion >> on his own breath, he kisses her carefully >> on her left cheek. Early April, and the weather >> has not decided if this is spring, winter, or what. >> The two gaze upwards at the sky which gives >> nothing away: the low clouds break here and there >> and let in tiny slices of a pure blue heaven. >> The day is like us, she thinks; it hasn't decided >> what to become. The traffic light at Linwood >> goes from red to green and the trucks start up, >> so that when he says, "Would you like to eat?" >> she hears a jumble of words that mean nothing, >> though spiced with things she cannot believe, >> "wooden Jew" and "lucky meat." He's been up >> late, she thinks, he's tired of the job, perhaps tired >> of their morning meetings, but when he bows >> from the waist and holds the door open >> for her to enter the diner, and the thick >> odor of bacon frying and new potatoes >> greets them both, and taking heart she enters >> to peer through the thick cloud of tobacco smoke >> to the see if "their booth" is available. >> F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote that there were no >> second acts in America, but he knew neither >> this man nor this woman and no one else >> like them unless he stayed late at the office >> to test his famous one liner, "We keep you clean >> Muscatine," on the woman emptying >> his waste basket. Fitzgerald never wrote >> with someone present, except for this woman >> in a gray uniform whose comings and goings >> went unnoticed even on those December evenings >> she worked late while the snow fell silently >> on the window sills and the new fluorescent lights >> blinked on and off. Get back to the two, you say. >> Not who ordered poached eggs, who ordered >> only toast and coffee, who shared the bacon >> with the other, but what became of the two >> when this poem ended, whose arms held whom, >> who first said "I love you" and truly meant it, >> and who misunderstood the words, so longed >> for, and yet still so unexpected, and began >> suddenly to scream and curse until the waitress >> asked them both to leave. The Packard plant closed >> years before I left Detroit, the diner was burned >> to the ground in '67, two years before my oldest son >> fled to Sweden to escape the American dream. >> "And the lovers?" you ask. I wrote nothing about lovers. >> Take a look. Clouds, trucks, traffic lights, a diner, work, >> a wooden shoe, East Moline, poached eggs, the perfume >> of frying bacon, the chaos of language, the spices >> of spent breath after eight hours of night work. >> Can you hear all I feared and never dared to write? >> Why the two are more real than either you or me, >> why I never returned to keep them in my life, >> how little I now mean to myself or anyone else, >> what any of this could mean, where you found >> the patience to endure these truths and confessions? >> >> --Philip Levine. *Breath*. Knopf, 2004. >> >> >> >> >> ==================================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> Poetry Library: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> ==================================================== >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Sun Mar 6 11:49:57 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:49:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence References: <003a01c521bd$06071470$71ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06><002601c52269$c26bead0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <005c01c5226a$db5e1120$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <008601c5226c$89ab3b80$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Providence, Rhode Island? Well, it's closer to New York than it is to Italy. But Italy feels closer, because you're there. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] in Providence Dear Old Mole, it is in Providence as I wrote in the title, which town should be somewhere near N.Y., I saw plenty of pics thanks to a link Henry Gould (another inhabitant of Providence) put on his blog. But you got it right with me being somewhat strange, I just watched The Serpent and The Rainbow by Wes Craven, and it is nice to be back with _people_, mails are people after all, take care, Anny From: The Old Mole Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] in Providence Anny - has reading too much Ashbery caused you to arrive at the decision not to post the city that Westminster Street is in? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence If there are any providential besides _normal_ people, Mairead Byrne is out for you: Bob Perelman & Mairead Byrne read in Mike Gizzi & Mike Magee's DownCity Series at Tazza, Westminster Street, on Tuesday March 8th at 7pm. The Poetry Reading -- I mean what *is* that about??? Please forgive cross-posting Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 6 12:07:31 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:07:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence References: <003a01c521bd$06071470$71ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06><002601c52269$c26bead0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><005c01c5226a$db5e1120$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> <008601c5226c$89ab3b80$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <008f01c5226e$fbe80140$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> a festive lively _drunken e_ on Geof Huth's blog http://www.dbqp.blogspot.com/ From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] in Providence Providence, Rhode Island? Well, it's closer to New York than it is to Italy. But Italy feels closer, because you're there. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] in Providence Dear Old Mole, it is in Providence as I wrote in the title, which town should be somewhere near N.Y., I saw plenty of pics thanks to a link Henry Gould (another inhabitant of Providence) put on his blog. But you got it right with me being somewhat strange, I just watched The Serpent and The Rainbow by Wes Craven, and it is nice to be back with _people_, mails are people after all, take care, Anny From: The Old Mole Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] in Providence Anny - has reading too much Ashbery caused you to arrive at the decision not to post the city that Westminster Street is in? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence If there are any providential besides _normal_ people, Mairead Byrne is out for you: Bob Perelman & Mairead Byrne read in Mike Gizzi & Mike Magee's DownCity Series at Tazza, Westminster Street, on Tuesday March 8th at 7pm. The Poetry Reading -- I mean what *is* that about??? Please forgive cross-posting Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sun Mar 6 12:14:13 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:14:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Levine Message-ID: Also from the new collection: Moradian He is not an apparition. After midnight, coming home from the job at Chevy, he materializes out of the darkness. Yes, I'm weary, but I'm also sober, and I know he's beside me matching me stride for stride. I wait for words which never come. Some men don't live by words no matter how much they know, and he knows it all. Dressed in the same dark pin-striped suit he wore to our engineering class years before, wearing also that downward cast of his eyes, the slight flush of blood along the shaved cheekbones. Never did we call him Johnny; even at sixteen he was John, a man waiting to enter a man's world, the one that would kill him. Had he seen me when I was young? He sat stoically at his desk beside me staring off into nothing or perhaps the future while quaint Mr. Kostick, our drawing teacher, went from student to student to mark our progress, always avoiding John. After the Christmas break of '43 his desk sat empty and the word was the Marine Corps or the paratroopers on some secret Pacific venture. No one really knew until his name appeared in a long list in the Free Press. Where were the Marianas? I had to take the big atlas down from the shelf, sit it in my lap, sweating, and pore over that expanse to find the small white dots swimming in a great sea of deep blue, while outside our little study window the October night came on one light after another in the street's closed houses. Somewhere there must be a yellowing photograph of a black-haired boy in shorts, shy, smiling, already looking away, there must be a pile of letters to someone, useless words that said what every boy has to say or, if they're gone, a sister who recalls his early needs, those breathless cries each of us stifles. He can't just be me, smaller now than I, his damp hands empty, his breath my breath, his silence also mine in the face of our life, he just can't be. --Philip Levine. *Breath*. Knopf, 2004. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman Sun Mar 6 12:13:37 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:13:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: <045a01c5220e$83bf0e30$4ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <004e01c5226b$29dd9640$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <012c01c5226f$d637c2e0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Deserving in the abstract? Deserving of this particular award? Deserving > what? Deserving by what criteria? > > > Tad Richards You should be able to guess, Mole. I would say deserving by virtue of doing substantially better work than. I suspect ninety-nine out of a hundred readers would take that to be my meaning. --Bob G. From JforJames Sun Mar 6 13:39:12 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:39:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the Unconscious Message-ID: <1f3.5aeb134.2f5ca850@aol.com> I thought this was a good piece on Ashbery, esp. his late period. I don't know why Ashbery is always talked about as in a line extending from Stevens. Stevens is so much more orderly and stately in his poetry. Even Stevens' exuberance and his flights of fancy seem constructed for effect. Ashbery is so much more nonchalant and discursive, his revelry in reverie is more real than Stevens'. Both pay attention to their psychological states in different ways; Stevens has more clearly developed philosophical notions and ideas at play. Ashbery is deliberate only in elusiveness; he is deliberate in his allusiveness. But Ashbery also personifies 'sprezzatura'; (a word I've been waiting months to work into some remarks). Ashbery could be said to be a High PostModernist. Also Stevens never spent a day in Paris/France; despite his Francophile pretentions. (Richard Howard has a good longish poem dealing imaginatively with 'what-if Stevens ever did go to Paris') I agree with McGrath that "Flow Chart" is tedious. And with Ashbery we expect some tedium; so that's really saying something when Ashbery tests the limits of even those who are willing to meet him half-way; and clearly McGrath is one who admires of the Ashbery oeuvre. I think McGrath is correct about prose poems of Ashbery falling flat. I'm not sure he's quite right about why, when McGrath says. "But the prose poem doesn't bring out the best in him (or in anybody else for that matter, except for poets like Charles Simic and Michael Benedikt, who treat the whole notion with a certain amount of irony). The long sentences, loose and rambling, let all the music leak out, and they often feel arbitrary, made up on the spot: (quoted prose poem)." (Michael Benedikt's not a name I've heard in some time...has he published anythingrecently?) It's hard for me to agree that there is something "almost aphoristic in his (Ashbery's) compactness and precision." Those last two words don't jump to mind when I think of Ashbery. He has a facility for the felicity of phrasing, I would say. But he's the poet who often reminds me of Proust; it's the divagations, the sidings and shunts, and not the depot stops that beckon with an 'All alboard!' for a ride on his train of thought. Finnegan Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Sun Mar 6 13:53:35 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:53:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the Unconscious References: <1f3.5aeb134.2f5ca850@aol.com> Message-ID: <003301c5227d$d1ad2950$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I liked the line "the prose poem doesn't bring out the best in him (or in anybody else for that matter)" Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the Unconscious I thought this was a good piece on Ashbery, esp. his late period. I don't know why Ashbery is always talked about as in a line extending from Stevens. Stevens is so much more orderly and stately in his poetry. Even Stevens' exuberance and his flights of fancy seem constructed for effect. Ashbery is so much more nonchalant and discursive, his revelry in reverie is more real than Stevens'. Both pay attention to their psychological states in different ways; Stevens has more clearly developed philosophical notions and ideas at play. Ashbery is deliberate only in elusiveness; he is deliberate in his allusiveness. But Ashbery also personifies 'sprezzatura'; (a word I've been waiting months to work into some remarks). Ashbery could be said to be a High PostModernist. Also Stevens never spent a day in Paris/France; despite his Francophile pretentions. (Richard Howard has a good longish poem dealing imaginatively with 'what-if Stevens ever did go to Paris') I agree with McGrath that "Flow Chart" is tedious. And with Ashbery we expect some tedium; so that's really saying something when Ashbery tests the limits of even those who are willing to meet him half-way; and clearly McGrath is one who admires of the Ashbery oeuvre. I think McGrath is correct about prose poems of Ashbery falling flat. I'm not sure he's quite right about why, when McGrath says. "But the prose poem doesn't bring out the best in him (or in anybody else for that matter, except for poets like Charles Simic and Michael Benedikt, who treat the whole notion with a certain amount of irony). The long sentences, loose and rambling, let all the music leak out, and they often feel arbitrary, made up on the spot: (quoted prose poem)." (Michael Benedikt's not a name I've heard in some time...has he published anythingrecently?) It's hard for me to agree that there is something "almost aphoristic in his (Ashbery's) compactness and precision." Those last two words don't jump to mind when I think of Ashbery. He has a facility for the felicity of phrasing, I would say. But he's the poet who often reminds me of Proust; it's the divagations, the sidings and shunts, and not the depot stops that beckon with an 'All alboard!' for a ride on his train of thought. Finnegan Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 6 14:00:30 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:00:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the Unconscious References: <1f3.5aeb134.2f5ca850@aol.com> Message-ID: <002201c5227e$c4a52c70$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Well thank you James, that was an incredible remark. I would like to add that "sprezzatura" is not that used, but the adjective is effective: "sprezzante", those three consonants at the beginning, the first sibylline and the following two heavy when together (you have to remember that in Italian _r_'s are Rolled as if you were switching on an engine...), and finally the stressed double _z_ (the z gives the idea of a precise cut, a net detachment) - well depict the attitude. Finally the adjective has the ending of a gerund -ongoing, continuous, originally from the verb: disprezzare, and having lost that initial _di_ it is even more incisive. I also thought of Proust, a succinct contemporary, opps, postmodern, Proust. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the Unconscious I thought this was a good piece on Ashbery, esp. his late period. I don't know why Ashbery is always talked about as in a line extending from Stevens. Stevens is so much more orderly and stately in his poetry. Even Stevens' exuberance and his flights of fancy seem constructed for effect. Ashbery is so much more nonchalant and discursive, his revelry in reverie is more real than Stevens'. Both pay attention to their psychological states in different ways; Stevens has more clearly developed philosophical notions and ideas at play. Ashbery is deliberate only in elusiveness; he is deliberate in his allusiveness. But Ashbery also personifies 'sprezzatura'; (a word I've been waiting months to work into some remarks). Ashbery could be said to be a High PostModernist. Also Stevens never spent a day in Paris/France; despite his Francophile pretentions. (Richard Howard has a good longish poem dealing imaginatively with 'what-if Stevens ever did go to Paris') I agree with McGrath that "Flow Chart" is tedious. And with Ashbery we expect some tedium; so that's really saying something when Ashbery tests the limits of even those who are willing to meet him half-way; and clearly McGrath is one who admires of the Ashbery oeuvre. I think McGrath is correct about prose poems of Ashbery falling flat. I'm not sure he's quite right about why, when McGrath says. "But the prose poem doesn't bring out the best in him (or in anybody else for that matter, except for poets like Charles Simic and Michael Benedikt, who treat the whole notion with a certain amount of irony). The long sentences, loose and rambling, let all the music leak out, and they often feel arbitrary, made up on the spot: (quoted prose poem)." (Michael Benedikt's not a name I've heard in some time...has he published anythingrecently?) It's hard for me to agree that there is something "almost aphoristic in his (Ashbery's) compactness and precision." Those last two words don't jump to mind when I think of Ashbery. He has a facility for the felicity of phrasing, I would say. But he's the poet who often reminds me of Proust; it's the divagations, the sidings and shunts, and not the depot stops that beckon with an 'All alboard!' for a ride on his train of thought. Finnegan Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sun Mar 6 16:43:44 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:43:44 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery's Map In-Reply-To: <1f3.5aeb134.2f5ca850@aol.com> Message-ID: I agree that "compactness and precision" is an odd way to describe Ashbery. On the compactness scale he rivals Whitman: if any poet sprawls and meanders and takes the long way home, it's JA. But "precision" seems even more problematic. Even a highly sympathetic reader such as Charles McGrath never quite points to any specific precision. On the contrary, Ashbery's work is consistently describable with terms like the ones McGrath elsewhere reaches for: "vague," "hint," "glimpses," "playfulness," "dreamy," "discontinuities," etc. All well and good for those who like vague, ironic, playful, musical glimpses into into the motions of Ashbery's odd and fascinating mind. But it's interesting that McGrath, like Helen Vendler, seems to yearn to make Ashbery into a more coherent or exact poet than he typically is, to find large thematic statements, often, beneath his meandering and resistant surfaces. For instance, consider McGrath's summary of the new book's thematic thrust: "Nothing about 'Where Shall I Wander' is cheerful, exactly. The jacket painting, by Caspar David Friedrich, is of a gloomy sunset over a field streaked with puddles. But the book isn't really melancholy either; the question posed by the title isn't so much urgent as idle and meditative. The younger Ashbery, the poet of 'Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror,' was in fact much more death-haunted than this later one, who in place of the great, chilling clarifications, the glimpses into sublimity provided by such poets of old and middle age as Hardy, Larkin and Yeats (who is invoked here more than once), offers what amounts to a kind of humble, almost folksy stoicism: Things could be worse, be grateful for what you have -- or at least had." I can only imagine the giggles with which many readers, and probably even Ashbery himself, will react to being told that his book's message reduces to "things could be worse, be grateful for what you have. . . ," which sounds like one of my freshman papers. Not that there are not feints & flirtations toward such things in Ashbery, early to late, but the whole point of his project, I would have thought, was to resist glib clarification of this sort. As McGrath quotes in his essay, Ashbery once remarked that ''I wanted to stretch the bond between language and communication but not to sever it.'' In fact, Ashbery has a long history of rather Warholian statements of this sort, such as the following: "I think my poems mean what they say... There is no message, nothing I want to tell the world particularly except what I am thinking when I am writing." I take him at his word--one reason why I am usually unpersuaded by essays such as McGrath's. Which isn't to say that I don't enjoy reading Ashbery from time to time, typically in small doses. ========================================================= on 3/6/05 12:39 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: I thought this was a good piece on Ashbery, esp. his late period. I don't know why Ashbery is always talked about as in a line extending from Stevens. Stevens is so much more orderly and stately in his poetry. Even Stevens' exuberance and his flights of fancy seem constructed for effect. Ashbery is so much more nonchalant and discursive, his revelry in reverie is more real than Stevens'.. . . It's hard for me to agree that there is something "almost aphoristic in his (Ashbery's) compactness and precision." Those last two words don't jump to mind when I think of Ashbery. He has a facility for the felicity of phrasing, I would say. But he's the poet who often reminds me of Proust; it's the divagations, the sidings and shunts, and not the depot stops that beckon with an 'All alboard!' for a ride on his train of thought. Finnegan Finnegan ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sun Mar 6 16:58:20 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:58:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the Unconscious Message-ID: In a message dated 3/6/2005 1:39:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Ashbery is deliberate > only in elusiveness; he is deliberate in his allusiveness By the way, I meant to say here, 'he isn't deliberate in his allusiveness." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sun Mar 6 17:12:55 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:12:55 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence Message-ID: <197.3a08ea25.2f5cda67@aol.com> In a message dated 3/6/2005 1:14:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: > a festive lively _drunken e_ on Geof Huth's blog > http://www.dbqp.blogspot.com/ > > Bob, did you see this, thanks to Anny, vispo on this list. Are you attending that conference in Albany? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sun Mar 6 17:18:08 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:18:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Blas Manuel de Luna Message-ID: <1e5.373c32c7.2f5cdba0@aol.com> In a message dated 3/5/2005 5:58:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu writes: > Their father > was somewhere in the field, > and was free. That's a good line from the de Luna poem. He should have left it there, I think. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sun Mar 6 20:50:59 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:50:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MacArthur Fellows References: <103.5c5eaa52.2f58a154@aol.com> Message-ID: <02ad01c522b8$1ca79a00$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In a message dated 3/3/2005 7:40:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: got their grants long after they'd gotten substantial recognition elsewhere, and in most cases, after they'd done their best work. I thought I said the above were the non-mediocrities who got grants. Bob, if you look at the list David posted you could tell that quite a few MacArthur grantees haven't even reached the point of publishing a Selected Poems...whether their best work is in front of them is an open question, but many have hardly reached the point where they're getting the accolade & pile of cash for 'lifetime achievement'. Finnegan Right, and I'm saying none of them will. It seems to me the MacArthur grants to poets go to (1) over-recognized poets, (2) affirmative action poets, and (3) friends of someone or who knows why poets. And none go to exploratory poets who haven't already been acclaimed. Note: I'm not going to get into a discussion of (2) for fear of ending called a racist, sexist, fascist, etc. I'll also admit that I have made any kind of close study of the MacArthurs. I just run into winners--in manner different fields, like Howard Gardner in psychology, who seem lightweights at best, to me, and rarely into names that seem heavyweights--except in sciences I don't feel qualified to judge. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sun Mar 6 21:30:51 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:30:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery's Map References: Message-ID: <02e301c522bd$aedf4bc0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Ashbery's MapI agree that "compactness and precision" is an odd way to describe Ashbery. On the compactness scale he rivals Whitman: if any poet sprawls and meanders and takes the long way home, it's JA. But "precision" seems even more problematic. Even a highly sympathetic reader such as Charles McGrath never quite points to any specific precision. On the contrary, Ashbery's work is consistently describable with terms like the ones McGrath elsewhere reaches for: "vague," "hint," "glimpses," "playfulness," "dreamy," "discontinuities," etc. All well and good for those who like vague, ironic, playful, musical glimpses into into the motions of Ashbery's odd and fascinating mind. But it's interesting that McGrath, like Helen Vendler, seems to yearn to make Ashbery into a more coherent or exact poet than he typically is, to find large thematic statements, often, beneath his meandering and resistant surfaces. For instance, consider McGrath's summary of the new book's thematic thrust: "Nothing about 'Where Shall I Wander' is cheerful, exactly. The jacket painting, by Caspar David Friedrich, is of a gloomy sunset over a field streaked with puddles. But the book isn't really melancholy either; the question posed by the title isn't so much urgent as idle and meditative. The younger Ashbery, the poet of 'Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror,' was in fact much more death-haunted than this later one, who in place of the great, chilling clarifications, the glimpses into sublimity provided by such poets of old and middle age as Hardy, Larkin and Yeats (who is invoked here more than once), offers what amounts to a kind of humble, almost folksy stoicism: Things could be worse, be grateful for what you have -- or at least had." I can only imagine the giggles with which many readers, and probably even Ashbery himself, will react to being told that his book's message reduces to "things could be worse, be grateful for what you have. . . ," which sounds like one of my freshman papers. Not that there are not feints & flirtations toward such things in Ashbery, early to late, but the whole point of his project, I would have thought, was to resist glib clarification of this sort. As McGrath quotes in his essay, Ashbery once remarked that ''I wanted to stretch the bond between language and communication but not to sever it.'' In fact, Ashbery has a long history of rather Warholian statements of this sort, such as the following: "I think my poems mean what they say... There is no message, nothing I want to tell the world particularly except what I am thinking when I am writing." I take him at his word--one reason why I am usually unpersuaded by essays such as McGrath's. Which isn't to say that I don't enjoy reading Ashbery from time to time, typically in small doses. *** But why not assume the critic is merely giving what I call the fore-burden of the poem, which he assumes will be taken to represent only 5%, say, of the what the poem is? To me, a critic's giving the theme of a poem is no more than his naming the words that rhyme. I think if no unifying fore-burden of some sort is in a poem, the poem isn't worth much. A theme, a design, a mood, etc. . . . --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo Mon Mar 7 01:56:43 2005 From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 22:56:43 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the Unconscious Message-ID: <200503070635.j276ZJ5K135822@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> I loved FLOW CHART when it came out, though for the life of me i couldn't see the CHART for the FLOW, and many readers of Ashbery I know tend to mark his next book as the point where Ashbery JUMPED THE SHARK (a phrase i just learned from my sister), but I think there's been some great stuff of his in the last 15 years, even if i don't read him with the same diligence i did back in the days.... ---------- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the Unconscious Date: Sun, Mar 6, 2005, 10:39 AM I agree with McGrath that "Flow Chart" is tedious. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Mon Mar 7 08:30:30 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:30:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] PhaWRONGula Message-ID: <12056857.1110202230760.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Apparently, some students of developmental biologist PZ Meyers ( http://pharyngula.org/index/ ) have started a blog of satrirical verse on biological, skeptical, and political topics. It's a lot of fun, and they handle meter pretty damned well: PhaWRONGula ( http://phawrongula.blogspot.com/ ) Mike S. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From jkok Mon Mar 7 09:29:19 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:29:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] These truths and confessions/Levine In-Reply-To: <004101c52268$1b854870$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> References: <004101c52268$1b854870$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: This powerful poem among other things, sounds like a caution against the academic kind of life he has led. And yet he has wanted it both ways and now writes the poem of regret that I do not want to have to write when I am his age. On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: > A very good poem, thank you > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather > admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 5:06 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] These truths and confessions/Levine > > > > I've been reading around in Philip Levine's new collection, *Breath*, > which > > has been mentioned here a time or two, as I recall. It will change no > one's > > opinion of Levine, I'm confident, but Levine fans will definitely want to > > check it out. There are some poems at least as strong as anything he's > done > > in the past couple decades--and, for a poet closing in on age 80, what > more > > could one ask? > > > > > > > > The Two > > > > When he gets off work at Packard, they meet > > outside a diner on Grand Boulevard. He's tired, > > a bit depressed, and smelling the exhaustion > > on his own breath, he kisses her carefully > > on her left cheek. Early April, and the weather > > has not decided if this is spring, winter, or what. > > The two gaze upwards at the sky which gives > > nothing away: the low clouds break here and there > > and let in tiny slices of a pure blue heaven. > > The day is like us, she thinks; it hasn't decided > > what to become. The traffic light at Linwood > > goes from red to green and the trucks start up, > > so that when he says, "Would you like to eat?" > > she hears a jumble of words that mean nothing, > > though spiced with things she cannot believe, > > "wooden Jew" and "lucky meat." He's been up > > late, she thinks, he's tired of the job, perhaps tired > > of their morning meetings, but when he bows > > from the waist and holds the door open > > for her to enter the diner, and the thick > > odor of bacon frying and new potatoes > > greets them both, and taking heart she enters > > to peer through the thick cloud of tobacco smoke > > to the see if "their booth" is available. > > F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote that there were no > > second acts in America, but he knew neither > > this man nor this woman and no one else > > like them unless he stayed late at the office > > to test his famous one liner, "We keep you clean > > Muscatine," on the woman emptying > > his waste basket. Fitzgerald never wrote > > with someone present, except for this woman > > in a gray uniform whose comings and goings > > went unnoticed even on those December evenings > > she worked late while the snow fell silently > > on the window sills and the new fluorescent lights > > blinked on and off. Get back to the two, you say. > > Not who ordered poached eggs, who ordered > > only toast and coffee, who shared the bacon > > with the other, but what became of the two > > when this poem ended, whose arms held whom, > > who first said "I love you" and truly meant it, > > and who misunderstood the words, so longed > > for, and yet still so unexpected, and began > > suddenly to scream and curse until the waitress > > asked them both to leave. The Packard plant closed > > years before I left Detroit, the diner was burned > > to the ground in '67, two years before my oldest son > > fled to Sweden to escape the American dream. > > "And the lovers?" you ask. I wrote nothing about lovers. > > Take a look. Clouds, trucks, traffic lights, a diner, work, > > a wooden shoe, East Moline, poached eggs, the perfume > > of frying bacon, the chaos of language, the spices > > of spent breath after eight hours of night work. > > Can you hear all I feared and never dared to write? > > Why the two are more real than either you or me, > > why I never returned to keep them in my life, > > how little I now mean to myself or anyone else, > > what any of this could mean, where you found > > the patience to endure these truths and confessions? > > > > --Philip Levine. *Breath*. Knopf, 2004. > > > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jkok Mon Mar 7 09:32:01 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:32:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence In-Reply-To: <008601c5226c$89ab3b80$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <003a01c521bd$06071470$71ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> <002601c52269$c26bead0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <005c01c5226a$db5e1120$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> <008601c5226c$89ab3b80$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: I second that!! Although Providence is a very cool town. Speaking as someone who once got married in Jersey City (oh yes!!) any city on salt water works for me... On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, The Old Mole wrote: > Providence, Rhode Island? Well, it's closer to New York than it is to Italy. But Italy feels closer, because you're there. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 11:37 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] in Providence > > > Dear Old Mole, it is in Providence as I wrote in the title, which town should be somewhere near N.Y., I saw plenty of pics thanks to a link Henry Gould (another inhabitant of Providence) put on his blog. But you got it right with me being somewhat strange, I just watched The Serpent and The Rainbow by Wes Craven, and it is nice to be back with _people_, mails are people after all, > > take care, Anny > > From: The Old Mole > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] in Providence > > > Anny - has reading too much Ashbery caused you to arrive at the decision not to post the city that Westminster Street is in? > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: New Poetry > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 2:53 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] in Providence > > > If there are any providential besides _normal_ people, Mairead Byrne is out for you: > > Bob Perelman & Mairead Byrne read in Mike Gizzi & Mike Magee's DownCity > Series at Tazza, Westminster Street, on Tuesday March 8th at 7pm. > > The Poetry Reading -- I mean what *is* that about??? > > Please forgive cross-posting > > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames Mon Mar 7 10:35:15 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:35:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Dig this: A national student poetry recitation contest Message-ID: <105.5c346728.2f5dceb3@aol.com> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0503070132mar07,1,452987. story?coll=chi-leisuretempo-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true Dig this: A national student poetry recitation contest By Charles Storch Tribune staff reporter Published March 7, 2005 By highlighting the works of established artists, the event would be a departure from the innumerable "slams"-- competitions held in schools, bars, theaters and even on cable television -- of performance poetry, in which writers declaim their own verses, raps or metered musings. "I think that memorizing and mastering the great poems, the classic poems, require slightly different skills, an act of interpretation rather than expression," said Stephen Young, program director of the Poetry Foundation, the longtime publisher of Poetry magazine made newly ambitious by a $100 million gift from pharmaceutical heiress Ruth Lilly. "And we want to emphasize the importance of reading poetry as well as performing it." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Mon Mar 7 11:15:58 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:15:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation CD Message-ID: <1e5.3748af7d.2f5dd83e@cs.com> >From Dan Stone at the NEA: People can email Hope O'Keeffe at the NEA - okeeffeh at arts.gov - to request CDs. They're free, and there's a pretty good Program Guide that accompanies it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Mon Mar 7 04:58:50 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:58:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology Message-ID: Drudge reports today that Camille Paglia has just published a poetry anthology. One particularly interesting line from his description of the project: "[The ENTIRE poetry establishment, all the honored, famous, adulated major living poets are excluded from the book! Poet laureates, Nobel prize winners teaching at Harvard, none of their poems made the cut; Paglia's choices of contemporary poets are obscure or unknown.]" Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From tad Mon Mar 7 12:44:48 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:44:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology References: Message-ID: <002601c5233d$6d9e3830$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Hmmm...I wonder if I'm in it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 4:58 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology > Drudge reports today that Camille Paglia has just published a poetry > anthology. One particularly interesting line from his description of the > project: > > > "[The ENTIRE poetry establishment, all the honored, famous, adulated major > living poets are excluded from the book! Poet laureates, Nobel prize > winners > teaching at Harvard, none of their poems made the cut; Paglia's choices of > contemporary poets are obscure or unknown.]" > > Paul Lake > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From MillB Mon Mar 7 13:01:10 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:01:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology Message-ID: <1a9.3327c250.2f5df0e6@aol.com> You know, it strikes me as "old fashioned" not innovative that Camille Paglia chose obscure or unknown writers. Wasn't that the way it USED to be? I have an copy of Best American Poetry from 1964 that lists poets who were, then, relatively unknown, but now their names read like a syllabus from a 20th century poetry class. Until fairly recently, poets were "discovered" in anthologies and by critics and by places like The New Yorker. And, anthologies and journals were compiled based on the quality of the work, not the sale-ability of famous names (who were enticed to provide work). But, I wax nostalgic... Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Mon Mar 7 13:03:22 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:03:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology Message-ID: <1ad.32f343e3.2f5df16a@cs.com> In a message dated 3/7/2005 11:02:05 AM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > Drudge reports today that Camille Paglia has just published a poetry > anthology. One particularly interesting line from his description of the > project: > It's only 43 poems. No table of contents is available at amazon.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Mon Mar 7 13:29:40 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:29:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology Message-ID: <731bb17a05030710297446ac6e@mail.gmail.com> I have an old anthology that I picked up at an antique store a few years ago. Titled simply *Contemporary Poetry,* it's published by MacMillan and edited by Marguerite Wilkinson. Published in 1924, it includes many of the usual suspects in American poetry anthologies--E.A. Robinson, Edgar Lee Masters, Amy Lowell, Robert Frost, Carl Sandburg, H.D., Joyce Kilmer, and Edna St. Vincent Millay. But, it also includes many, many poets with whom I am not familiar. Indeed, I've never even heard of a few of these folks: Aflred Kreymborg Badger Clark William Stanley Braithwaite Florence Wilkinson Evans Anybody know these poets? Here's a poem by a poet who's new to me: The Winds Madison Cawein These hewers of the clouds, the Winds, -- that lair At the four compass points, -- are out tonight; I hear their sandals trample on the height, I hear their voices trumpet through the air: Builders of storm, God's workmen, now they bear. Up the steep stair of the sky, on backs of might, Huge tempest bulks, while, -- sweat that blinds their sight The rain is shaken from tumultuous hair: Now, sweepers of the firmament, they broom Like gathered dust, the rolling mists along Heaven's floors of sapphire; all the beautiful blue Of skyey corridor and celestial room Preparing, with large laughter and loud song, For the white moon and stars to wander through. I googled old Madison Cawein, and accoring to one site (http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/infopedia/c/cawein.htm): Cawein, Madison (1865-1914) Madison Cawein was the leading American nature poet of his day. Cawein was a Louisville native, the son of German immigrants involved in the herb business. He worked in the Newmarket Poolroom for the six years after he graduated from Male High School. He apparently wrote a sequence of poems about Authurian myths. I've never heard of this guy, not that my comment implies judgement. I did a quick survey of the poetry anthologies I have on my shelf, and I don't see him listed in any of them. Whadday think? I suppose that Bob would label this guy a "mediocritie," and perhaps he was. I don't know. Some of you all who know more about meter than I do might be able to comment on Cawein's handling (or mishandling) of meter. Anyway, a question does present itself: what names come to mind when you think of the poetry anthologies of tomorrow? Over whom will poets and critics debate? Of the currently "popular" poets, who will survive and who will be the name that confounds future readers, who'll scratch their heads and say, "Who was that?" Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From halvard Mon Mar 7 13:12:48 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:12:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology In-Reply-To: <1a9.3327c250.2f5df0e6@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi, Mill-- As long as you're waxing nostalgic, how about doing my car? Hal But, I wax nostalgic... Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB Mon Mar 7 13:56:45 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:56:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology Message-ID: <9b.5ab38441.2f5dfded@aol.com> I don't do cars... Just nostalgia-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Mon Mar 7 14:24:34 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:24:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation CD In-Reply-To: <1e5.3748af7d.2f5dd83e@cs.com> References: <1e5.3748af7d.2f5dd83e@cs.com> Message-ID: <10428694.1110223474666.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Thanks, Sam! On Monday, March 07, 2005, at 11:16AM, wrote: > ><>_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Mon Mar 7 14:42:30 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:42:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Re: Poetry Recitation CD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9969906.1110224550439.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Well, I snuck in -- but it looks like they're not really ready for distribution just yet. From: Hope O'Keeffe TO: I'll mail the materials out to you -- but PLEASE do not encourage anyone else to ask! Our supply is very limited. Because the program is in its pilot phase, these materials are not available for public distribution; we hope to begin distribution next year. We want to evaluate the pilot and make sure that the program works before we disseminate the materials broadly. Thanks! "I cannot live without books." -- Thomas Jefferson >>> Mike Snider 03/07/05 02:24PM >>> Ms. Hope: I'd like to request one of the NEA Poetry Recitation CDs. My address is From mandolin Mon Mar 7 14:48:33 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:48:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Michael Donaghy Message-ID: <256598.1110224913483.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> For those who knew him or know his poetry -- and maybe more for those who don't -- I just fond, via the blog poemanias ( http://poemanias.blogspot.com/ ), a site ( http://www.mdx.ac.uk/rescen/Rosemary_Lee/m_donaghy/donaghy.html ) with video and audio files and links to his poems and essays. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From JforJames Mon Mar 7 15:48:56 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:48:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology Message-ID: <191.3a8d2dca.2f5e1838@aol.com> I'm definitely out because I've not reached the level of 'obscure' yet. But can one be unknown? You can be 'underknown', perhaps. Or previously unknown. Finnegan In a message dated 3/7/2005 12:45:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Hmmm...I wonder if I'm in it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 4:58 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology > Drudge reports today that Camille Paglia has just published a poetry > anthology. One particularly interesting line from his description of the > project: > > > "[The ENTIRE poetry establishment, all the honored, famous, adulated major > living poets are excluded from the book! Poet laureates, Nobel prize > winners > teaching at Harvard, none of their poems made the cut; Paglia's choices of > contemporary poets are obscure or unknown.]" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Mon Mar 7 16:32:44 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:32:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] These truths and confessions/Levine References: <004101c52268$1b854870$18af3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <003b01c5235d$33054040$0ede3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi Kerry, my first thoughts here were, if I had met this poem when I was a teenager I wouldn't have needed to get through the existentialists to negate everything in order to strike a balance. His tone is sad but human, a better compromise than facing the disasters of war in order to grow an orchard to survive. But for the lucky ones who have a better aim and are able to bring it forth, here are all my wishes, and that they should show us the way__ take care, Anny > This powerful poem among other things, sounds like a caution against the > academic kind of life > he has led. And yet he has wanted it both ways and now writes the poem > of regret that I do not want to have to write when I am his age. > > On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > > A very good poem, thank you > > > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather > > admirers. > > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Graham" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 5:06 PM > > Subject: [New-Poetry] These truths and confessions/Levine > > > > > > > I've been reading around in Philip Levine's new collection, *Breath*, > > which > > > has been mentioned here a time or two, as I recall. It will change no > > one's > > > opinion of Levine, I'm confident, but Levine fans will definitely want to > > > check it out. There are some poems at least as strong as anything he's > > done > > > in the past couple decades--and, for a poet closing in on age 80, what > > more > > > could one ask? > > > > > > > > > > > > The Two > > > > > > When he gets off work at Packard, they meet > > > outside a diner on Grand Boulevard. He's tired, > > > a bit depressed, and smelling the exhaustion > > > on his own breath, he kisses her carefully > > > on her left cheek. Early April, and the weather > > > has not decided if this is spring, winter, or what. > > > The two gaze upwards at the sky which gives > > > nothing away: the low clouds break here and there > > > and let in tiny slices of a pure blue heaven. > > > The day is like us, she thinks; it hasn't decided > > > what to become. The traffic light at Linwood > > > goes from red to green and the trucks start up, > > > so that when he says, "Would you like to eat?" > > > she hears a jumble of words that mean nothing, > > > though spiced with things she cannot believe, > > > "wooden Jew" and "lucky meat." He's been up > > > late, she thinks, he's tired of the job, perhaps tired > > > of their morning meetings, but when he bows > > > from the waist and holds the door open > > > for her to enter the diner, and the thick > > > odor of bacon frying and new potatoes > > > greets them both, and taking heart she enters > > > to peer through the thick cloud of tobacco smoke > > > to the see if "their booth" is available. > > > F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote that there were no > > > second acts in America, but he knew neither > > > this man nor this woman and no one else > > > like them unless he stayed late at the office > > > to test his famous one liner, "We keep you clean > > > Muscatine," on the woman emptying > > > his waste basket. Fitzgerald never wrote > > > with someone present, except for this woman > > > in a gray uniform whose comings and goings > > > went unnoticed even on those December evenings > > > she worked late while the snow fell silently > > > on the window sills and the new fluorescent lights > > > blinked on and off. Get back to the two, you say. > > > Not who ordered poached eggs, who ordered > > > only toast and coffee, who shared the bacon > > > with the other, but what became of the two > > > when this poem ended, whose arms held whom, > > > who first said "I love you" and truly meant it, > > > and who misunderstood the words, so longed > > > for, and yet still so unexpected, and began > > > suddenly to scream and curse until the waitress > > > asked them both to leave. The Packard plant closed > > > years before I left Detroit, the diner was burned > > > to the ground in '67, two years before my oldest son > > > fled to Sweden to escape the American dream. > > > "And the lovers?" you ask. I wrote nothing about lovers. > > > Take a look. Clouds, trucks, traffic lights, a diner, work, > > > a wooden shoe, East Moline, poached eggs, the perfume > > > of frying bacon, the chaos of language, the spices > > > of spent breath after eight hours of night work. > > > Can you hear all I feared and never dared to write? > > > Why the two are more real than either you or me, > > > why I never returned to keep them in my life, > > > how little I now mean to myself or anyone else, > > > what any of this could mean, where you found > > > the patience to endure these truths and confessions? > > > > > > --Philip Levine. *Breath*. Knopf, 2004. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > David Graham > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > Poetry Library: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad Mon Mar 7 17:56:52 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:56:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology References: <9b.5ab38441.2f5dfded@aol.com> Message-ID: <002d01c52368$f5d16940$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Wax on....wax off... Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology I don't do cars... Just nostalgia-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Mon Mar 7 17:57:56 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:57:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairfield Review Winter 2005 issue. Message-ID: We are pleased to announce the publication of The Fairfield Review Winter 2005 issue. This issue features fiction by Richard Boughton and Margaret Karmazin and poems by Heidi Atwood, Amanda Auchter, Terri Brown-Davidson, Bonnie Enes, DJ Gaskin, John Jeffrey, Robert H. Nunnally, Jr., Emma Lee, Rose McDonagh, Mark McGuire-Schwartz, Tom Moore, Claudia Moscovici, Lynn Patmalnee, Kenneth Rehill, Abraham Romney, Hugo De Sarro, Sarah Sloat and Monica Ellen Smith. The Editor's Choices for this issue go to "First Things First" by Richard Boughton, "Polishing God" by Tom Moore and "Waterfall" by Sarah Sloat The "classic" poem is Walt Whitman's "I Am the Poet." Please consider supporting the Fairfield Review by ordering "The Best of The Fairfield Review" anniversary volume in print. This 125 page edition contains a selection of poems and short stories published over the last five years. For sample excerpts from the anthology and a list of Editor's Choice awards, please visit our website at the link below and click on the "Best of The Fairfield Review" link. We hope you will continue to support the writing arts, especially among students and new authors, through your loyal readership and generosity. We commit to provide you continuing literary excellence on the web, as well as an important venue for students, and new and established writers. Thank you for your continued support. If you know of someone we should add to this mailing list, please send us an email at the link below. If you would like to be removed from this mailing list, please click on the Update Profile or SafeUnsubscribe link below, and accept our sincere apology for the email intrusion. Also, please let us know if you receive a duplicate copy of this announcement. Authors seeking to submit their writing should visit our Editors & Authors page from our home page, or click on the link on the left. The Fairfield Review Winter Issue Thank you for your interest in The Fairfield Review. Sincerely, Janet & Edward Granger-Happ Editors, The Fairfield Review, Inc. email: fairfieldreview at hpmd.com web: http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=divma4aab.0.z6n4zzaab.774cxzaab.372&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fairfieldreview.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB Mon Mar 7 18:00:19 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:00:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology Message-ID: <159.4c5b724a.2f5e3703@aol.com> Grasshopper! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Mon Mar 7 18:07:34 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:07:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Read it yet?: Questions of Possibility Message-ID: Questions of Possibility Contemporary Poetry and Poetic Form David Caplan Add to Cart 0195169573, hardback, 176 pages Dec 2004, In Stock Price:$35.00 (06) Shipping & Handling:$5.25 (US), $10.00 (INTL) Description Questions of Possibility examines the particular forms that contemporary American poets favor and those they neglect. The poets' choices reveal both their ambitions and their limitations, the new possibilities they discover and the traditions they find unimaginable. By means of close attention to the sestina, ghazal, love sonnet, ballad, and heroic couplet, this study advances a new understanding of contemporary American poetry. Rather than pitting "closed" verse against "open" and "traditional" poetry against "experimental," Questions of Possibility explores how poets associated with different movements inspire and inform each other's work. Discussing a range of authors, from Charles Bernstein, Derek Walcott, and Marilyn Hacker to Agha Shahid Ali, David Caplan treats these poets as contemporaries who share the language, not as partisans assigned to rival camps. The most interesting contemporary poetry crosses the boundaries that literary criticism draws, synthesizing diverse influences and establishing surprising affinities. In a series of lively readings, Caplan charts the diverse characteristics and accomplishments of modern poetry, from the gay and lesbian love sonnet to the currently popular sestina. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Mon Mar 7 18:14:48 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:14:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Read it yet?: Questions of Possibility References: Message-ID: <007401c5236b$7825c060$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Currently popular sestina? I would have thought that was yesterday's news. I'd guess the pantoum or the ghazal would be today's hot numbers. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 6:07 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Read it yet?: Questions of Possibility Questions of Possibility Contemporary Poetry and Poetic Form David Caplan Add to Cart 0195169573, hardback, 176 pages Dec 2004, In Stock Price:$35.00 (06) Shipping & Handling:$5.25 (US), $10.00 (INTL) Description Questions of Possibility examines the particular forms that contemporary American poets favor and those they neglect. The poets' choices reveal both their ambitions and their limitations, the new possibilities they discover and the traditions they find unimaginable. By means of close attention to the sestina, ghazal, love sonnet, ballad, and heroic couplet, this study advances a new understanding of contemporary American poetry. Rather than pitting "closed" verse against "open" and "traditional" poetry against "experimental," Questions of Possibility explores how poets associated with different movements inspire and inform each other's work. Discussing a range of authors, from Charles Bernstein, Derek Walcott, and Marilyn Hacker to Agha Shahid Ali, David Caplan treats these poets as contemporaries who share the language, not as partisans assigned to rival camps. The most interesting contemporary poetry crosses the boundaries that literary criticism draws, synthesizing diverse influences and establishing surprising affinities. In a series of lively readings, Caplan charts the diverse characteristics and accomplishments of modern poetry, from the gay and lesbian love sonnet to the currently popular sestina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Mon Mar 7 11:52:10 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:52:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Leslie Pockell--Anyone Know Him or Of Him? References: Message-ID: <012101c5233a$42f3dac0$21b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> There's an anthology out called The 100 Best Poems, edited by Leslie Pockell. All knownstream standards. But I'm not here to repeat my annoyance about such crap, but to find out about its editor--who may well be someone I knew in high school, a boy in my sister's class, a year behind me. Great sense of humor, and a nice albeit nerdyish fellow. I googled but couldn't find out anything personal about him, It would be kind of ironic if he IS the Leslie I knew (not well, but my sister knew him fairly well). --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Mon Mar 7 18:25:07 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:25:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?___Break=2C_Blow=2C_Burn=3A_Camille_Pagli?= =?utf-8?q?a_Reads_Forty-three_of_the_World=E2=80=99s_Best_Poems?= Message-ID: <1a5.329970d3.2f5e3cd3@aol.com> A bit more description of the book... http://www.primapublishing.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375420843 Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World?s Best Poems is destined to become a landmark. In it, America?s premier intellectual provocateur explores and celebrates a series of great poems of the Western tradition, including some surprising discoveries of her own. She brings new energy and insight to our understanding of poems we already know, such as masterpieces by Shakespeare, Donne, Shelley, Dickinson, Lowell, and Plath. She leads us to appreciate the artistry of writers with whom we may not be familiar, such as Chuck Wachtel and Wanda Coleman. And she hails the songwriter Joni Mitchell as a major contemporary poet. Daring, erudite, entertaining, and infused throughout with Paglia?s inimitable style and passion, this beautifully written book??and the dazzling mind behind it??will entice readers to begin or renew a passionate engagement with poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Mon Mar 7 18:32:21 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:32:21 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D____Break=2C_Blow=2C?= =?utf-8?Q?_Burn:_Camille_Paglia_Reads_Fort?= =?utf-8?Q?y-three_of_the_World=E2=80=99s_Best_Poem?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= References: <1a5.329970d3.2f5e3cd3@aol.com> Message-ID: <009f01c5236d$ef336f20$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Chuck Wachtel is a neighbor, and a good writer. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 6:25 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World?s Best Poems A bit more description of the book... http://www.primapublishing.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375420843 Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World?s Best Poems is destined to become a landmark. In it, America?s premier intellectual provocateur explores and celebrates a series of great poems of the Western tradition, including some surprising discoveries of her own. She brings new energy and insight to our understanding of poems we already know, such as masterpieces by Shakespeare, Donne, Shelley, Dickinson, Lowell, and Plath. She leads us to appreciate the artistry of writers with whom we may not be familiar, such as Chuck Wachtel and Wanda Coleman. And she hails the songwriter Joni Mitchell as a major contemporary poet. Daring, erudite, entertaining, and infused throughout with Paglia?s inimitable style and passion, this beautifully written book??and the dazzling mind behind it??will entice readers to begin or renew a passionate engagement with poetry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks Mon Mar 7 18:42:50 2005 From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:42:50 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] NOT EVEN GOD SPEAKING FROM THE WHIRLWIND In-Reply-To: <200503071700.j27H030s017158@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307153844.00c25268@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:00 PM 3/7/2005 -0500, Paul Lake wrote: >Drudge reports today that Camille Paglia has just published a poetry >anthology. One particularly interesting line from his description of the >project: > >"[The ENTIRE poetry establishment, all the honored, famous, adulated major >living poets are excluded from the book! Poet laureates, Nobel prize winners >teaching at Harvard, none of their poems made the cut; Paglia's choices of >contemporary poets are obscure or unknown.]" Ah, at last: the Revolution! get out those knitting-needles, Camille. -- Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Mon Mar 7 18:52:52 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:52:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Possibilities of Form Message-ID: A predecessor of this book, from the sounds of the description, would be David Lehman's Ecstatic Forms, published back in the early 90's. Joseph Conte's Unending Design is another one that comes to mind--he deals with "experimental" investigations of form. Kent From Kent.Johnson Mon Mar 7 18:55:05 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:55:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] PMLA Poetry issue Message-ID: The new issue: Volume 120, Number 1, January 2005 Special Topic: On Poetry Coordinated by Bruce R. Smith CONTENTS: Introduction: Some Presuppositions Bruce R. Smith On the Misery of Theory without Poetry: Heidegger's Reading of H?lderlin's "Andenken" Avital Ronell On Not Defending Poetry: Spenser, Suffering, and the Energy of Affect Joseph Campana The Ethical Uselessness of Grief: Randall Jarrell's "The Refugees" R. Clifton Spargo The Strange Case of Araki Yasusada: Author, Object Eric R. J. Hayot Fugitive Lyric: The Rhymes of the Canting Crew Daniel Tiffany Poetry and Theory: A Roundtable Phonic Matters: French Sound Poetry, Julia Kristeva, and Bernard Heidsieck Carrie Noland Mallarm?'s Cinepoetics: The Poem Uncoiled by the Cin?matographe, 1893-98 Christophe Wall-Romana Standing on the Burning Deck: Poetry, Performance, History Catherine Robson A Box for Wilfrid Blunt Lucy McDiarmid "Everything We Want": Frank O'Hara and the Aesthetics of Free Choice Michael Clune The Muse of Indifference Eric C. Walker Three Approaches to Poetry Virginie Greene What Praise Poems Are For Susan Stewart Forum Raffaella Baccolini, David Ketterer, and Eric S. Rabkin From Kent.Johnson Mon Mar 7 19:59:44 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:59:44 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Question of Possibility, rather Message-ID: Sorry, to be clear--I meant the mention of the Lehman and Conte books as a response to Jim's post of above title. Kent From JforJames Mon Mar 7 21:13:51 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:13:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] George Sterling: A Lost Poet Message-ID: <1f1.3705be52.2f5e645f@aol.com> George Sterling: A Lost Poet By Dennis L. Siluk Mar. 7, 2005 Not many folks heard about George Sterling, the poet of California of the l920s; lost in the annals of 'dead poets?' but he lived, even if his shadow is buried with him. Who was he? one of the most gifted poets of the 20th century, or so I believe. He was considered during his time to be the poet-laureate of California, and was under consideration for that title here, in all of North America. He was friends with Ambrose Bierce, his tutor of sorts, and Jack London. He was born in 1869, and died in l926, at the ripe old age of 57-years old; a suicide case, as often poets chose to follow such roads, not able to function in the material or physical world so they go inward to the dream one; and never come out. I have not found many poets equal to him, that is, his writings, to include Sandburg, or Frost, Plath or even Dylan Thomas. Sterling's visionary and mystical charm is unequaled: even H.P. Lovecraft, or Clark A. Smith, or Robert E. Howard cannot surpass him in that area, or even structure, like Robert Lowell's poetry. He was a mixture of Shelley, Keats, and Poe. "Three Sonnets on Oblivion," and the longer poem, "Strange Things," are superb. But the best of his poetry-I do believe-is in the collection called (the title being): "The House of Orchids," which has been out of print forever it seems. And so one has to buy an original copy, if they can find one, and I did; I think only 2000-copies were ever printed on that first edition, first printing: and no other printings followed, but I could be wrong. Yet his poetry is available if one seeks it out, in other titles. He wrote a number of sonnets to the woman, who ended up being Upton St. Clair's wife; whom he dated before Upton dated her, and whom he tried to discourage from marrying Upton, but could not. Her poems were put into a book, likewise, and put on the market after his death in l926, and are well done with what I might call, intensive alarm. So, for those poetry lovers who never heard of George Sterling, it might be worth while to seek a few of his poems out, see if it touches you. Poetry to me is calming, like water, and can be enjoyed almost at any event or location. I always carry a book or two around incase I need to just wander off to dream land. ------------ About the author: Mr. Siluk is a world traveler, a lover of the mysteries around the world, and has visit many World Heritage Sites, his most recent being Easter Island, the Galapagos and Mesa Verde. His books can be seen on/at Barns and Noble.com, Amazon.com, Wal-Mart, Abe.com Alibis, Boarders and several other sites and book stores. Many of his books can be purchased through the English Bookdealers. He spends his time between Lima, Peru and St. Paul, Minnesota, and has just finished working on two new books: "The Macabre Poems," and "Perhaps it's Love," and continues to work on "Curse of the Abyss Worm," a suspenseful mystery, and "Cold Kindness," a tragic love affair. Visit http://dennissiluk.tripod.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Mon Mar 7 23:59:49 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:59:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Anthology In-Reply-To: <002601c5233d$6d9e3830$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 3/7/05 11:44 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > >> Drudge reports today that Camille Paglia has just published a poetry >> anthology. One particularly interesting line from his description of the >> project: >> >> >> "[The ENTIRE poetry establishment, all the honored, famous, adulated major >> living poets are excluded from the book! Poet laureates, Nobel prize >> winners >> teaching at Harvard, none of their poems made the cut; Paglia's choices of >> contemporary poets are obscure or unknown.]" >> >> Paul Lake Hmmm. Only 43 poets, including Shakespeare, Donne, Shelley, Dickinson, Lowell, and Plath. Plus obscure, unappreciated contemporaries like Joni Mitchell? More power to anyone willing to do any anthology, which makes you a fat target. But--Bob Grumman please note-- this doesn't exactly sound like *pathbreaking* work to me. Odd that it's apparently being peddled in this way. It'd be interesting to know who Paglia considers obscure, anyway. I'd love to be as unknown as Wanda Coleman, myself: published by Black Sparrow, a National Book Award nominee, winner of Lenore Marshall prize, etc. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman Mon Mar 7 20:32:11 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:32:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anyone Know Leslie Pockell? References: <200503070635.j276ZJ5K135822@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <017001c5237e$a89bc740$21b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Re: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com: Mapping the UnconsciousNote: this is a repeat of a message I posted seven hours ago that didn't seem to have made it to New-Poetry. My computer was doing strange things at the time. In case it did make it and I missed it, or it didn't get to my computer for some reason, apologies. ***** There's an anthology out called The 100 Best Poems, edited by Leslie Pockell. All knownstream standards. But I'm not here to repeat my annoyance about such crap, but to find out about its editor--who may well be someone I knew in high school, a boy in my sister's class, a year behind me. Great sense of humor, and a nice albeit nerdyish fellow. I googled but couldn't find out anything personal about him, It would be kind of ironic if he IS the Leslie I knew (not well, but my sister knew him fairly well). --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 8 09:28:45 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:28:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a0503080628609969f0@mail.gmail.com> Sam & others, You got it: --American Poets James Whitcomb Riley Eugene Field Ina Coolbrith Edwin Markham Edith M Thomas Katharine Lee Bates William Herbert Carruth Lizette Woodworth Reese Clinton Scollard Louise Imogene Guiney Richard Hovey Madison Cawein George Sterling E.A. Robinson Edgar Lee Masters William Vaughn Moody Arthur Guiterman Thomas Augustine Daly Anna Hempstead Branch Amy Lowell Ridgely Torrence Harriet Monroe Robert Frost Sarah N. Cleghorn William Griffith Carl Sandburg Florence Wilkinson Evans Josephine Preston Peabody Olive Tilford Dargan Angela Morgan Grace Hazard Conkling William Stanely Braithwaite Robert Haven Schauffler Vachel Lindsay John G. Neihardt Witter Bynner James Oppenheim Alfred Kreymborg Badger Clark Marguerite Wilkinson (also editor of volume) Max Eastman Fannie Stearns Gifford Eunice Tietjens Sara Teasdale (includes 6 poems, more than any other poet in volume) Louis Untermeyer Jean Starr Untermeyer John Gould Fletcher H.D. William Rose Benet John Hall Weelock Joyce Kilmer Aline Kilmer Margaret Widdemer Alan Seeger Edna St. Vincent Millay --English, Irish, and Canadian Poets William Ernest Henley Robert Louis Stevenson Alice Meynell William Henry Durmmond John Davidson A.E. Housman Francis Thompson Henry Charles Beeching Charles G.D. Roberts Bliss Carman Sir Henry Newbolt Stephen Phillips Rudyard Kipling William Butler Yeats Richard Le Gallienne Laurence Binyon Katharine Tynan William H. Davies John McCrae Ralph Hodgson Walter De La Mare Gordon Bottomly John Masefield G.K. Chesterson Evelyn Underhill Eva Gore-Booth Edward Thomas Thomas MacDonagh Harold Monro Wilfrid Wilson Gibson Alfred Noyes Padraic Colum Joseph Campbell John Drinkwater James Stephens James Elroy Felcker Sigfried Sasoon F.S. Flint Rupert Brooke Francis Ledwidge Richard Aldington Irene Rugherford McLeod Moira O'Neill It's a huge list for such a little volume (only 372 page, including both introduction and indices). Most poets have only a poem or two, and some of the choices are not so much strange as they are unfamiliar. For instance, I've never seen Robert Frost's "Onset" anthologized. The introduction of the book makes clear that its primary purpose is for the classroom; the editor commetns, "This book is not for mature intellectuals. It is not for specialists. It is for the young sons and daughters of ordinary intelligent Americans." Glancing over the list of names above, I can that some of these I know; some of these I've heard of; some of these I never knew existed until I glanced through the book's pages. Comments? Jeff Newberry On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:14:21 EST, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > It would be interesting to see a complete table of contents for > the anthology you've mentioned. -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From jkok Tue Mar 8 09:38:57 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:38:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Possibilities of Form In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm for anything with "Ecstatic" in its title. Time to go to Amazon used... By the way, for anyone who is interested, Jack Gilbert's book, "Refusing Heaven" should be on the shelves by now. I only mention this because I typed (and retyped and typed again) the manuscript...K. From bobgrumman Tue Mar 8 09:57:48 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:57:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NOT EVEN GOD SPEAKING FROM THE WHIRLWIND References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307153844.00c25268@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <007401c523ef$31f45820$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Drudge reports today that Camille Paglia has just published a poetry anthology. One particularly interesting line from his description of the project: "[The ENTIRE poetry establishment, all the honored, famous, adulated major living poets are excluded from the book! Poet laureates, Nobel prize winners teaching at Harvard, none of their poems made the cut; Paglia's choices of contemporary poets are obscure or unknown.]" Ah, at last: the Revolution! get out those knitting-needles, Camille. -- Barry Ah, but i'll be the KIND of poets in her anthology is not obscure or unknown. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Mar 8 10:00:04 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:00:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anyone Know Leslie Pockell, Anthology Editor? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307153844.00c25268@incoming.verizon.net> <007401c523ef$31f45820$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009001c523ef$82d6fa90$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Third Try on this. Note: this is a repeat of a message I posted seven hours ago that didn't seem to have made it to New-Poetry. My computer was doing strange things at the time. In case it did make it and I missed it, or it didn't get to my computer for some reason, apologies. ***** There's an anthology out called The 100 Best Poems, edited by Leslie Pockell. All knownstream standards. But I'm not here to repeat my annoyance about such crap, but to find out about its editor--who may well be someone I knew in high school, a boy in my sister's class, a year behind me. Great sense of humor, and a nice albeit nerdyish fellow. I googled but couldn't find out anything personal about him, It would be kind of ironic if he IS the Leslie I knew (not well, but my sister knew him fairly well). --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 8 10:08:30 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:08:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anyone Know Leslie Pockell, Anthology Editor? In-Reply-To: <009001c523ef$82d6fa90$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307153844.00c25268@incoming.verizon.net> <007401c523ef$31f45820$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009001c523ef$82d6fa90$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <731bb17a05030807085fb32c22@mail.gmail.com> Bob, I've gotten all three. My messages haven't been showing up to me, either. But according to others on the list, they can see what I've posted. Jeff Newberry On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:00:04 -0500, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Third Try on this. > > Note: this is a repeat of a message I posted seven hours ago that didn't > seem to have made it to New-Poetry. My computer was doing strange things at > the time. In case it did make it and I missed it, or it didn't get to my > computer for some reason, apologies. > > ***** > > There's an anthology out called The 100 Best Poems, edited by Leslie > Pockell. All knownstream standards. But I'm not here to repeat my > annoyance about such crap, but to find out about its editor--who may well be > someone I knew in high school, a boy in my sister's class, a year behind me. > Great sense of humor, and a nice albeit nerdyish fellow. I googled but > couldn't find out anything personal about him, It would be kind of ironic > if he IS the Leslie I knew (not well, but my sister knew him fairly well). > > --Bob G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From GrahamD Tue Mar 8 11:08:37 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:08:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9F1@URANIUM.ripon.college> > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Kerry O'Keefe > This powerful poem among other things, sounds like a caution against the > academic kind of life > he has led. And yet he has wanted it both ways and now writes the poem > of regret that I do not want to have to write when I am his age. ========================================= I must say that this seems like a pretty reductive reading of both the poem and the life. Curious as to where you see the poem alluding to "the academic kind of life," too. . . . ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > > > > > > The Two > > > > > > When he gets off work at Packard, they meet > > > outside a diner on Grand Boulevard. He's tired, > > > a bit depressed, and smelling the exhaustion > > > on his own breath, he kisses her carefully > > > on her left cheek. Early April, and the weather > > > has not decided if this is spring, winter, or what. > > > The two gaze upwards at the sky which gives > > > nothing away: the low clouds break here and there > > > and let in tiny slices of a pure blue heaven. > > > The day is like us, she thinks; it hasn't decided > > > what to become. The traffic light at Linwood > > > goes from red to green and the trucks start up, > > > so that when he says, "Would you like to eat?" > > > she hears a jumble of words that mean nothing, > > > though spiced with things she cannot believe, > > > "wooden Jew" and "lucky meat." He's been up > > > late, she thinks, he's tired of the job, perhaps tired > > > of their morning meetings, but when he bows > > > from the waist and holds the door open > > > for her to enter the diner, and the thick > > > odor of bacon frying and new potatoes > > > greets them both, and taking heart she enters > > > to peer through the thick cloud of tobacco smoke > > > to the see if "their booth" is available. > > > F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote that there were no > > > second acts in America, but he knew neither > > > this man nor this woman and no one else > > > like them unless he stayed late at the office > > > to test his famous one liner, "We keep you clean > > > Muscatine," on the woman emptying > > > his waste basket. Fitzgerald never wrote > > > with someone present, except for this woman > > > in a gray uniform whose comings and goings > > > went unnoticed even on those December evenings > > > she worked late while the snow fell silently > > > on the window sills and the new fluorescent lights > > > blinked on and off. Get back to the two, you say. > > > Not who ordered poached eggs, who ordered > > > only toast and coffee, who shared the bacon > > > with the other, but what became of the two > > > when this poem ended, whose arms held whom, > > > who first said "I love you" and truly meant it, > > > and who misunderstood the words, so longed > > > for, and yet still so unexpected, and began > > > suddenly to scream and curse until the waitress > > > asked them both to leave. The Packard plant closed > > > years before I left Detroit, the diner was burned > > > to the ground in '67, two years before my oldest son > > > fled to Sweden to escape the American dream. > > > "And the lovers?" you ask. I wrote nothing about lovers. > > > Take a look. Clouds, trucks, traffic lights, a diner, work, > > > a wooden shoe, East Moline, poached eggs, the perfume > > > of frying bacon, the chaos of language, the spices > > > of spent breath after eight hours of night work. > > > Can you hear all I feared and never dared to write? > > > Why the two are more real than either you or me, > > > why I never returned to keep them in my life,> > > > how little I now mean to myself or anyone else, > > > what any of this could mean, where you found > > > the patience to endure these truths and confessions? > > > > > > --Philip Levine. *Breath*. Knopf, 2004. > > > > > > > ---------- > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok Tue Mar 8 11:13:38 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:13:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9F1@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9F1@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: I think of the life as a poet that he has lived - writing, teaching, reading, and yet always harkening back to the lower middle class. This has been mentioned before but finally, isn't it a little scandalous? There really are educated enlightened people that decide to embrace that life but it didn't seem like he did. And isn't his regret expressed from the comfort of his fame and position... Reminds me a little of that Joni Mitchell song - "He was Playing Real Good for Free" - a kind of wistfulness that is really a bit privileged. I guess I have a little horror at reaching the age of eighty and not having a sense of, at least, largesse of my life. If he thinks he has hidden, well, shame on him for having hidden... Yes. I am judgmental. It is part of my elusive charm. From hruggier Tue Mar 8 11:26:33 2005 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:26:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology References: <731bb17a0503080628609969f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01db01c523fb$9ac54470$750a9942@Helen> Aline Kilmer? Is she Joyce's wife? sister? mother? or just another Kilmer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Newberry" To: ; "NewPoetry" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology > Sam & others, > > You got it: > > --American Poets > James Whitcomb Riley > Eugene Field > Ina Coolbrith > Edwin Markham > Edith M Thomas > Katharine Lee Bates > William Herbert Carruth > Lizette Woodworth Reese > Clinton Scollard > Louise Imogene Guiney > Richard Hovey > Madison Cawein > George Sterling > E.A. Robinson > Edgar Lee Masters > William Vaughn Moody > Arthur Guiterman > Thomas Augustine Daly > Anna Hempstead Branch > Amy Lowell > Ridgely Torrence > Harriet Monroe > Robert Frost > Sarah N. Cleghorn > William Griffith > Carl Sandburg > Florence Wilkinson Evans > Josephine Preston Peabody > Olive Tilford Dargan > Angela Morgan > Grace Hazard Conkling > William Stanely Braithwaite > Robert Haven Schauffler > Vachel Lindsay > John G. Neihardt > Witter Bynner > James Oppenheim > Alfred Kreymborg > Badger Clark > Marguerite Wilkinson (also editor of volume) > Max Eastman > Fannie Stearns Gifford > Eunice Tietjens > Sara Teasdale (includes 6 poems, more than any other poet in volume) > Louis Untermeyer > Jean Starr Untermeyer > John Gould Fletcher > H.D. > William Rose Benet > John Hall Weelock > Joyce Kilmer > Aline Kilmer > Margaret Widdemer > Alan Seeger > Edna St. Vincent Millay > --English, Irish, and Canadian Poets > William Ernest Henley > Robert Louis Stevenson > Alice Meynell > William Henry Durmmond > John Davidson > A.E. Housman > Francis Thompson > Henry Charles Beeching > Charles G.D. Roberts > Bliss Carman > Sir Henry Newbolt > Stephen Phillips > Rudyard Kipling > William Butler Yeats > Richard Le Gallienne > Laurence Binyon > Katharine Tynan > William H. Davies > John McCrae > Ralph Hodgson > Walter De La Mare > Gordon Bottomly > John Masefield > G.K. Chesterson > Evelyn Underhill > Eva Gore-Booth > Edward Thomas > Thomas MacDonagh > Harold Monro > Wilfrid Wilson Gibson > Alfred Noyes > Padraic Colum > Joseph Campbell > John Drinkwater > James Stephens > James Elroy Felcker > Sigfried Sasoon > F.S. Flint > Rupert Brooke > Francis Ledwidge > Richard Aldington > Irene Rugherford McLeod > Moira O'Neill > > It's a huge list for such a little volume (only 372 page, including > both introduction and indices). Most poets have only a poem or two, > and some of the choices are not so much strange as they are > unfamiliar. For instance, I've never seen Robert Frost's "Onset" > anthologized. The introduction of the book makes clear that its > primary purpose is for the classroom; the editor commetns, "This book > is not for mature intellectuals. It is not for specialists. It is > for the young sons and daughters of ordinary intelligent Americans." > > Glancing over the list of names above, I can that some of these I > know; some of these I've heard of; some of these I never knew existed > until I glanced through the book's pages. > > Comments? > > Jeff Newberry > > > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:14:21 EST, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: >> It would be interesting to see a complete table of contents for >> the anthology you've mentioned. > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From paul.lake Tue Mar 8 04:37:54 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 03:37:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Read it yet?: Questions of Possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had the pleasure of serving on a few critics seminars and panels at West Chester University with David Caplan, who came to New Formalism as an interested but noncomforming poet-critic regarding poetic formalism. Looks like the experience of hanging out with the West Chester crowd has played a part in his critical approach to form. I look forward to reading the book. Thanks for posting, Jim. Paul Lake On 3/7/05 5:07 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" wrote: > Questions of Possibility > > Contemporary Poetry and Poetic Form David Caplan Add to Cart 0195169573, > hardback, 176 pages Dec 2004, In Stock Price:$35.00 (06) Shipping & > Handling:$5.25 (US), $10.00 (INTL) Description > > > > Questions of Possibility examines the particular forms that contemporary > American poets favor and those they neglect. The poets' choices reveal both > their ambitions and their limitations, the new possibilities they discover and > the traditions they find unimaginable. By means of close attention to the > sestina, ghazal, love sonnet, ballad, and heroic couplet, this study advances > a new understanding of contemporary American poetry. Rather than pitting > "closed" verse against "open" and "traditional" poetry against "experimental," > Questions of Possibility explores how poets associated with different > movements inspire and inform each other's work. Discussing a range of authors, > from Charles Bernstein, Derek Walcott, and Marilyn Hacker to Agha Shahid Ali, > David Caplan treats these poets as contemporaries who share the language, not > as partisans assigned to rival camps. The most interesting contemporary poetry > crosses the boundaries that literary criticism draws, synthesizing diverse > influences and establishing surprising affinities. In a series of lively > readings, Caplan charts the diverse characteristics and accomplishments of > modern poetry, from the gay and lesbian love sonnet to the currently popular > sestina. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Tue Mar 8 04:39:21 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 03:39:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World=?ISO-8859-1?B?uQ==?=s Best Poems In-Reply-To: <1a5.329970d3.2f5e3cd3@aol.com> Message-ID: On 3/7/05 5:25 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" wrote: > A bit more description of the book... > > > > http://www.primapublishing.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375420843 > > > > Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World?s Best Poems > is destined to become a landmark. In it, America?s premier intellectual > provocateur explores and celebrates a series of great poems of the Western > tradition, including some surprising discoveries of her own. She brings new > energy and insight to our understanding of poems we already know, such as > masterpieces by Shakespeare, Donne, Shelley, Dickinson, Lowell, and Plath. She > leads us to appreciate the artistry of writers with whom we may not be > familiar, such as Chuck Wachtel and Wanda Coleman. And she hails the > songwriter Joni Mitchell as a major contemporary poet. > > > > Daring, erudite, entertaining, and infused throughout with Paglia?s inimitable > style and passion, this beautifully written book??and the dazzling mind behind > it??will entice readers to begin or renew a passionate engagement with poetry. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Wanda Coleman I?ve heard of, but who?s Chuck Wachtel? Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Tue Mar 8 11:52:47 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:52:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology In-Reply-To: <01db01c523fb$9ac54470$750a9942@Helen> References: <731bb17a0503080628609969f0@mail.gmail.com> <01db01c523fb$9ac54470$750a9942@Helen> Message-ID: <11998779.1110300767172.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, March 08, 2005, at 11:35AM, Helen Ruggieri wrote: >Aline Kilmer? Is she Joyce's wife? sister? mother? or just another Kilmer. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jeff Newberry" >To: ; "NewPoetry" >Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:28 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology > > >> Sam & others, >> >> You got it: >> >> --American Poets >> James Whitcomb Riley >> Eugene Field >> Ina Coolbrith >> Edwin Markham >> Edith M Thomas >> Katharine Lee Bates >> William Herbert Carruth >> Lizette Woodworth Reese >> Clinton Scollard >> Louise Imogene Guiney >> Richard Hovey >> Madison Cawein >> George Sterling >> E.A. Robinson >> Edgar Lee Masters >> William Vaughn Moody >> Arthur Guiterman >> Thomas Augustine Daly >> Anna Hempstead Branch >> Amy Lowell >> Ridgely Torrence >> Harriet Monroe >> Robert Frost >> Sarah N. Cleghorn >> William Griffith >> Carl Sandburg >> Florence Wilkinson Evans >> Josephine Preston Peabody >> Olive Tilford Dargan >> Angela Morgan >> Grace Hazard Conkling >> William Stanely Braithwaite >> Robert Haven Schauffler >> Vachel Lindsay >> John G. Neihardt >> Witter Bynner >> James Oppenheim >> Alfred Kreymborg >> Badger Clark >> Marguerite Wilkinson (also editor of volume) >> Max Eastman >> Fannie Stearns Gifford >> Eunice Tietjens >> Sara Teasdale (includes 6 poems, more than any other poet in volume) >> Louis Untermeyer >> Jean Starr Untermeyer >> John Gould Fletcher >> H.D. >> William Rose Benet >> John Hall Weelock >> Joyce Kilmer >> Aline Kilmer >> Margaret Widdemer >> Alan Seeger >> Edna St. Vincent Millay >> --English, Irish, and Canadian Poets >> William Ernest Henley >> Robert Louis Stevenson >> Alice Meynell >> William Henry Durmmond >> John Davidson >> A.E. Housman >> Francis Thompson >> Henry Charles Beeching >> Charles G.D. Roberts >> Bliss Carman >> Sir Henry Newbolt >> Stephen Phillips >> Rudyard Kipling >> William Butler Yeats >> Richard Le Gallienne >> Laurence Binyon >> Katharine Tynan >> William H. Davies >> John McCrae >> Ralph Hodgson >> Walter De La Mare >> Gordon Bottomly >> John Masefield >> G.K. Chesterson >> Evelyn Underhill >> Eva Gore-Booth >> Edward Thomas >> Thomas MacDonagh >> Harold Monro >> Wilfrid Wilson Gibson >> Alfred Noyes >> Padraic Colum >> Joseph Campbell >> John Drinkwater >> James Stephens >> James Elroy Felcker >> Sigfried Sasoon >> F.S. Flint >> Rupert Brooke >> Francis Ledwidge >> Richard Aldington >> Irene Rugherford McLeod >> Moira O'Neill >> >> It's a huge list for such a little volume (only 372 page, including >> both introduction and indices). Most poets have only a poem or two, >> and some of the choices are not so much strange as they are >> unfamiliar. For instance, I've never seen Robert Frost's "Onset" >> anthologized. The introduction of the book makes clear that its >> primary purpose is for the classroom; the editor commetns, "This book >> is not for mature intellectuals. It is not for specialists. It is >> for the young sons and daughters of ordinary intelligent Americans." >> >> Glancing over the list of names above, I can that some of these I >> know; some of these I've heard of; some of these I never knew existed >> until I glanced through the book's pages. >> >> Comments? >> >> Jeff Newberry >> >> >> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:14:21 EST, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: >>> It would be interesting to see a complete table of contents for >>> the anthology you've mentioned. >> >> >> -- >> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > And is William Herbert Carruth related to Haydn Carruth? I notice, James, that your forgotten poet, George Sterling, is in the book. The American part of the list looks less strange to me than does the British/Irish/Canadian part: is the opposite true for those of you on the Eastern Shore? Or is it my usual spotty ignorance? Mike S. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 8 11:56:28 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:56:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology In-Reply-To: <01db01c523fb$9ac54470$750a9942@Helen> References: <731bb17a0503080628609969f0@mail.gmail.com> <01db01c523fb$9ac54470$750a9942@Helen> Message-ID: <731bb17a050308085651d2c14@mail.gmail.com> Helen, I'll quote from the book's introduction: "Aline Kilmer and Jean Starr Untermeyer were well known in literary circles before their books wre published and their poetry is as interesting to the public as the poetry of their husbands, Joyce Kilmer and Louis Untermeyer." Apparently, Aline Kilmer had two books--*Candles that Burn* (1919) and *Vigils* (1921). According to the book's editor, Marguerite Wilkinson, "[Both books] have in them that concise strength of personality that makes them both unique and universal." Here's one of the Aline Kilmer poems: Song Against Children O the barberry bright, the barberry bright! It stood on the mantelpiece because of the height. Its stems were slender and thorny and tall And it looked most beautiful against the gray wall. But Michael climbed up there in spite of the height And he ate all the berries off the barberry bright. O the round holly wreath, the round holly wreath! It hung in the window with ivy beneath. It was plump and prosperous, spangled with red And it thought it would cheer me although I were dead. But Deborah climbed on a table beneath And she ate all the berries off the round holly wreath. O the mistletoe bough, the misteltoe bough! Could anyone touch it? I did not see how. I hung it up high that it might last long. I wreathed it with ribbons and hailed it with song. But Christopher reached it, I do not know how, And he ate all the berries off teh mistletoe bough. Well, there you have it. I think that it's a pretty dreadful poem. (Wouldn't someond die from eathing holly berries? Or mistletoe?). Maybe that's the point. I mean, the title of this thing IS "Song AGAINST Childen." Also, the rhyme scheme seems so cutesy in conjunction with the subject matter that, to use a scientific term, I want to hurl when I read it. But, I do still like the title. I might steal it. Jeff Newberry On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:26:33 -0500, Helen Ruggieri wrote: > Aline Kilmer? Is she Joyce's wife? sister? mother? or just another Kilmer. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Newberry" > To: ; "NewPoetry" > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:28 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology > > > Sam & others, > > > > You got it: > > > > --American Poets > > James Whitcomb Riley > > Eugene Field > > Ina Coolbrith > > Edwin Markham > > Edith M Thomas > > Katharine Lee Bates > > William Herbert Carruth > > Lizette Woodworth Reese > > Clinton Scollard > > Louise Imogene Guiney > > Richard Hovey > > Madison Cawein > > George Sterling > > E.A. Robinson > > Edgar Lee Masters > > William Vaughn Moody > > Arthur Guiterman > > Thomas Augustine Daly > > Anna Hempstead Branch > > Amy Lowell > > Ridgely Torrence > > Harriet Monroe > > Robert Frost > > Sarah N. Cleghorn > > William Griffith > > Carl Sandburg > > Florence Wilkinson Evans > > Josephine Preston Peabody > > Olive Tilford Dargan > > Angela Morgan > > Grace Hazard Conkling > > William Stanely Braithwaite > > Robert Haven Schauffler > > Vachel Lindsay > > John G. Neihardt > > Witter Bynner > > James Oppenheim > > Alfred Kreymborg > > Badger Clark > > Marguerite Wilkinson (also editor of volume) > > Max Eastman > > Fannie Stearns Gifford > > Eunice Tietjens > > Sara Teasdale (includes 6 poems, more than any other poet in volume) > > Louis Untermeyer > > Jean Starr Untermeyer > > John Gould Fletcher > > H.D. > > William Rose Benet > > John Hall Weelock > > Joyce Kilmer > > Aline Kilmer > > Margaret Widdemer > > Alan Seeger > > Edna St. Vincent Millay > > --English, Irish, and Canadian Poets > > William Ernest Henley > > Robert Louis Stevenson > > Alice Meynell > > William Henry Durmmond > > John Davidson > > A.E. Housman > > Francis Thompson > > Henry Charles Beeching > > Charles G.D. Roberts > > Bliss Carman > > Sir Henry Newbolt > > Stephen Phillips > > Rudyard Kipling > > William Butler Yeats > > Richard Le Gallienne > > Laurence Binyon > > Katharine Tynan > > William H. Davies > > John McCrae > > Ralph Hodgson > > Walter De La Mare > > Gordon Bottomly > > John Masefield > > G.K. Chesterson > > Evelyn Underhill > > Eva Gore-Booth > > Edward Thomas > > Thomas MacDonagh > > Harold Monro > > Wilfrid Wilson Gibson > > Alfred Noyes > > Padraic Colum > > Joseph Campbell > > John Drinkwater > > James Stephens > > James Elroy Felcker > > Sigfried Sasoon > > F.S. Flint > > Rupert Brooke > > Francis Ledwidge > > Richard Aldington > > Irene Rugherford McLeod > > Moira O'Neill > > > > It's a huge list for such a little volume (only 372 page, including > > both introduction and indices). Most poets have only a poem or two, > > and some of the choices are not so much strange as they are > > unfamiliar. For instance, I've never seen Robert Frost's "Onset" > > anthologized. The introduction of the book makes clear that its > > primary purpose is for the classroom; the editor commetns, "This book > > is not for mature intellectuals. It is not for specialists. It is > > for the young sons and daughters of ordinary intelligent Americans." > > > > Glancing over the list of names above, I can that some of these I > > know; some of these I've heard of; some of these I never knew existed > > until I glanced through the book's pages. > > > > Comments? > > > > Jeff Newberry > > > > > > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:14:21 EST, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > >> It would be interesting to see a complete table of contents for > >> the anthology you've mentioned. > > > > > > -- > > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 8 11:59:02 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:59:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology In-Reply-To: <11998779.1110300767172.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> References: <731bb17a0503080628609969f0@mail.gmail.com> <01db01c523fb$9ac54470$750a9942@Helen> <11998779.1110300767172.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a050308085956f6c274@mail.gmail.com> I checked the book, Mike, but it doesn't mention old Haydn. I felt the same as you do about the table of contents. I'd be interested to hear some imput. Jeff Newberry > > And is William Herbert Carruth related to Haydn Carruth? I notice, James, that your forgotten poet, George Sterling, is in the book. > > The American part of the list looks less strange to me than does the British/Irish/Canadian part: is the opposite true for those of you on the Eastern Shore? Or is it my usual spotty ignorance? > > Mike S. > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From tad Tue Mar 8 12:00:41 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:00:41 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D____Break=2C_Blow=2C_Burn:_Camille_Pag?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?lia_ReadsForty-three_of_the_World=B9s_Best_Poems?= References: Message-ID: <005f01c52400$62f6d270$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Re: [New-Poetry] Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World's Best PoemsChuck Wachtel, a neighbor of mine, is better known as a novelist -- I confess I've read his novels but not his poetry. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Lake To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:39 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia ReadsForty-three of the World?s Best Poems On 3/7/05 5:25 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" wrote: A bit more description of the book... http://www.primapublishing.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375420843 Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World's Best Poems is destined to become a landmark. In it, America's premier intellectual provocateur explores and celebrates a series of great poems of the Western tradition, including some surprising discoveries of her own. She brings new energy and insight to our understanding of poems we already know, such as masterpieces by Shakespeare, Donne, Shelley, Dickinson, Lowell, and Plath. She leads us to appreciate the artistry of writers with whom we may not be familiar, such as Chuck Wachtel and Wanda Coleman. And she hails the songwriter Joni Mitchell as a major contemporary poet. Daring, erudite, entertaining, and infused throughout with Paglia's inimitable style and passion, this beautifully written book--and the dazzling mind behind it--will entice readers to begin or renew a passionate engagement with poetry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Wanda Coleman I've heard of, but who's Chuck Wachtel? Paul Lake ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spearlstein Tue Mar 8 12:07:16 2005 From: spearlstein (spearlstein at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:07:16 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the Worldâs Best Poems Message-ID: <030820051707.17364.422DDBC300056BF0000043D4220075078402070A9B9C049D0E0A9F9C@comcast.net> To all: This is my first posting to the list, and I don't mean to think hastily before writing -as I have not read the anthology yet, nor do I plan to purchase it, though I'm sure I'll end up looking through it at some point - but this e-mail came as a kind of a bad joke. Camille Paglia, the dreaded wannabe hipster who, nonetheless, asks academics to rattle their shackles in a sense, when she acts as dissident to their camp; and given the lack of dissent and democratice decision making in the power-making halls of academia, they inevitably respond with either adoration or horror; (This comes simply from personal experience as a former undergraduate.) comes forward as the first public figure to herald obscure poetry, a pipe dream for most of us to think of doing ourselves. Yet Paglia is a rape-case denier, and is anti-woman while she claims feminism. She essentializes animalistic feminine and masculine traits in her work, and one cannot help but think that her anthology will reflect this banal tendency in her work. I do not slam people lightly, Paglia has always stirred this reaction in me; I wonder if others on the list feel similarly - or at least, do not agree that the revolution has begun in the poetry world because a culture-vulture came along to take advantage of a ripe moment in the poetry zeitgeist, in which formerly avant-garde writers have come to take leading positions in anthology-making (Hejinian's new anthology, I forget the name...) texts for class-room reading. Any feeling on this? Sincerely, Sarah Pearlstein -------------- Original message -------------- ??? Chuck Wachtel is a neighbor, and a good writer. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 6:25 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World???s Best Poems A bit more description of the book... http://www.primapublishing.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375420843 Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World???s Best Poems is destined to become a landmark. In it, America???s premier intellectual provocateur explores and celebrates a series of great poems of the Western tradition, including some surprising discoveries of her own. She brings new energy and insight to our understanding of poems we already know, such as masterpieces by Shakespeare, Donne, Shelley, Dickinson, Lowell, and Plath. She leads us to appreciate the artistry of writers with whom we may not be familiar, such as Chuck Wachtel and Wanda Coleman. And she hails the songwriter Joni Mitchell as a major contemporary poet. Daring, erudite, entertaining, and infused throughout with Paglia???s inimitable style and passion, this beautifully written book??????and the dazzling mind behind it??????will entice readers to begin or renew a passionate engagement with poetry. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "The Old Mole" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World???s Best Poems Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:32:44 +0000 Size: 768 URL: From GrahamD Tue Mar 8 12:28:34 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:28:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9FE@URANIUM.ripon.college> I've not seen the anthology, which contains a number of names new to me. Sic transit gloria, as always. Louis Untermeyer's wife did establish a reputation apart from Louis, as I recall. I seem to remember a certain amount of comment about how she was a better poet than Louis, anyway. Lots of comments, too, on how many pages LU gave himself in his many anthologies, also. Untermeyer's true immortality was in e.e. cummings's savage epigram: mr u will not be missed who as an anthologist sold the many on the few not excluding mr u (that's quoted from memory, may not be precise) ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Jeff Newberry > Reply To: Jeff Newberry;NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News & Views > Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2005 10:56 AM > To: NewPoetry > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology > > Helen, > > I'll quote from the book's introduction: > > "Aline Kilmer and Jean Starr Untermeyer were well known in literary > circles before their books wre published and their poetry is as > interesting to the public as the poetry of their husbands, Joyce > Kilmer and Louis Untermeyer." > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Tue Mar 8 12:42:01 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:42:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology References: <731bb17a0503080628609969f0@mail.gmail.com><01db01c523fb$9ac54470$750a9942@Helen> <731bb17a050308085651d2c14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008901c52406$27f68c00$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Re the Aline Kilmer poem - yeah, all the kids would have died. Clearly, Aline was not as sentimental as Joyce. This is a kind of poetry popular at the time, the mordant witty poem about anti-sentimental subject matter, as in: Little Willie from his mirror Licked the mercury right off, Thinking in his childish error, It would cure the whooping cough. At the funeral his mother Sadly said to Mrs. Brown, "Twas a chilly day for Willie When the mercury went down." Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Newberry" To: "NewPoetry" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology > Helen, > > I'll quote from the book's introduction: > > "Aline Kilmer and Jean Starr Untermeyer were well known in literary > circles before their books wre published and their poetry is as > interesting to the public as the poetry of their husbands, Joyce > Kilmer and Louis Untermeyer." > > Apparently, Aline Kilmer had two books--*Candles that Burn* (1919) and > *Vigils* (1921). According to the book's editor, Marguerite > Wilkinson, "[Both books] have in them that concise strength of > personality that makes them both unique and universal." > > Here's one of the Aline Kilmer poems: > > Song Against Children > > O the barberry bright, the barberry bright! > It stood on the mantelpiece because of the height. > Its stems were slender and thorny and tall > And it looked most beautiful against the gray wall. > But Michael climbed up there in spite of the height > And he ate all the berries off the barberry bright. > > O the round holly wreath, the round holly wreath! > It hung in the window with ivy beneath. > It was plump and prosperous, spangled with red > And it thought it would cheer me although I were dead. > But Deborah climbed on a table beneath > And she ate all the berries off the round holly wreath. > > O the mistletoe bough, the misteltoe bough! > Could anyone touch it? I did not see how. > I hung it up high that it might last long. > I wreathed it with ribbons and hailed it with song. > But Christopher reached it, I do not know how, > And he ate all the berries off teh mistletoe bough. > > Well, there you have it. I think that it's a pretty dreadful poem. > (Wouldn't someond die from eathing holly berries? Or mistletoe?). > Maybe that's the point. I mean, the title of this thing IS "Song > AGAINST Childen." Also, the rhyme scheme seems so cutesy in > conjunction with the subject matter that, to use a scientific term, I > want to hurl when I read it. > > But, I do still like the title. I might steal it. > > Jeff Newberry > > > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:26:33 -0500, Helen Ruggieri > wrote: >> Aline Kilmer? Is she Joyce's wife? sister? mother? or just another >> Kilmer. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jeff Newberry" >> To: ; "NewPoetry" >> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:28 AM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology >> >> > Sam & others, >> > >> > You got it: >> > >> > --American Poets >> > James Whitcomb Riley >> > Eugene Field >> > Ina Coolbrith >> > Edwin Markham >> > Edith M Thomas >> > Katharine Lee Bates >> > William Herbert Carruth >> > Lizette Woodworth Reese >> > Clinton Scollard >> > Louise Imogene Guiney >> > Richard Hovey >> > Madison Cawein >> > George Sterling >> > E.A. Robinson >> > Edgar Lee Masters >> > William Vaughn Moody >> > Arthur Guiterman >> > Thomas Augustine Daly >> > Anna Hempstead Branch >> > Amy Lowell >> > Ridgely Torrence >> > Harriet Monroe >> > Robert Frost >> > Sarah N. Cleghorn >> > William Griffith >> > Carl Sandburg >> > Florence Wilkinson Evans >> > Josephine Preston Peabody >> > Olive Tilford Dargan >> > Angela Morgan >> > Grace Hazard Conkling >> > William Stanely Braithwaite >> > Robert Haven Schauffler >> > Vachel Lindsay >> > John G. Neihardt >> > Witter Bynner >> > James Oppenheim >> > Alfred Kreymborg >> > Badger Clark >> > Marguerite Wilkinson (also editor of volume) >> > Max Eastman >> > Fannie Stearns Gifford >> > Eunice Tietjens >> > Sara Teasdale (includes 6 poems, more than any other poet in volume) >> > Louis Untermeyer >> > Jean Starr Untermeyer >> > John Gould Fletcher >> > H.D. >> > William Rose Benet >> > John Hall Weelock >> > Joyce Kilmer >> > Aline Kilmer >> > Margaret Widdemer >> > Alan Seeger >> > Edna St. Vincent Millay >> > --English, Irish, and Canadian Poets >> > William Ernest Henley >> > Robert Louis Stevenson >> > Alice Meynell >> > William Henry Durmmond >> > John Davidson >> > A.E. Housman >> > Francis Thompson >> > Henry Charles Beeching >> > Charles G.D. Roberts >> > Bliss Carman >> > Sir Henry Newbolt >> > Stephen Phillips >> > Rudyard Kipling >> > William Butler Yeats >> > Richard Le Gallienne >> > Laurence Binyon >> > Katharine Tynan >> > William H. Davies >> > John McCrae >> > Ralph Hodgson >> > Walter De La Mare >> > Gordon Bottomly >> > John Masefield >> > G.K. Chesterson >> > Evelyn Underhill >> > Eva Gore-Booth >> > Edward Thomas >> > Thomas MacDonagh >> > Harold Monro >> > Wilfrid Wilson Gibson >> > Alfred Noyes >> > Padraic Colum >> > Joseph Campbell >> > John Drinkwater >> > James Stephens >> > James Elroy Felcker >> > Sigfried Sasoon >> > F.S. Flint >> > Rupert Brooke >> > Francis Ledwidge >> > Richard Aldington >> > Irene Rugherford McLeod >> > Moira O'Neill >> > >> > It's a huge list for such a little volume (only 372 page, including >> > both introduction and indices). Most poets have only a poem or two, >> > and some of the choices are not so much strange as they are >> > unfamiliar. For instance, I've never seen Robert Frost's "Onset" >> > anthologized. The introduction of the book makes clear that its >> > primary purpose is for the classroom; the editor commetns, "This book >> > is not for mature intellectuals. It is not for specialists. It is >> > for the young sons and daughters of ordinary intelligent Americans." >> > >> > Glancing over the list of names above, I can that some of these I >> > know; some of these I've heard of; some of these I never knew existed >> > until I glanced through the book's pages. >> > >> > Comments? >> > >> > Jeff Newberry >> > >> > >> > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:14:21 EST, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >> > wrote: >> >> It would be interesting to see a complete table of contents for >> >> the anthology you've mentioned. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >> > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> >> > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Tue Mar 8 12:43:09 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:43:09 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D____Break=2C_Blow=2C_Burn:_Camille_Pag?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?lia_Reads_Forty-three_of_the_World=E2s_Best_Poems?= References: <030820051707.17364.422DDBC300056BF0000043D4220075078402070A9B9C049D0E0A9F9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00ac01c52406$4fd32ad0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Sarah - I hope you'll post again, and I couldn't agree with you more, right down the line. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: spearlstein at comcast.net at comcast.net To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World?s Best Poems To all: This is my first posting to the list, and I don't mean to think hastily before writing -as I have not read the anthology yet, nor do I plan to purchase it, though I'm sure I'll end up looking through it at some point - but this e-mail came as a kind of a bad joke. Camille Paglia, the dreaded wannabe hipster who, nonetheless, asks academics to rattle their shackles in a sense, when she acts as dissident to their camp; and given the lack of dissent and democratice decision making in the power-making halls of academia, they inevitably respond with either adoration or horror; (This comes simply from personal experience as a former undergraduate.) comes forward as the first public figure to herald obscure poetry, a pipe dream for most of us to think of doing ourselves. Yet Paglia is a rape-case denier, and is anti-woman while she claims feminism. She essentializes animalistic feminine and masculine traits in her work, and one cannot help but think that her anthology will reflect this banal tendency in her work. I do not slam people lightly, Paglia has always stirred this reaction in me; I wonder if others on the list feel similarly - or at least, do not agree that the revolution has begun in the poetry world because a culture-vulture came along to take advantage of a ripe moment in the poetry zeitgeist, in which formerly avant-garde writers have come to take leading positions in anthology-making (Hejinian's new anthology, I forget the name...) texts for class-room reading. Any feeling on this? Sincerely, Sarah Pearlstein -------------- Original message -------------- ??? Chuck Wachtel is a neighbor, and a good writer. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 6:25 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World??Ts Best Poems A bit more description of the book... http://www.primapublishing.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375420843 Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World??Ts Best Poems is destined to become a landmark. In it, America??Ts premier intellectual provocateur explores and celebrates a series of great poems of the Western tradition, including some surprising discoveries of her own. She brings new energy and insight to our understanding of poems we already know, such as masterpieces by Shakespeare, Donne, Shelley, Dickinson, Lowell, and Plath. She leads us to appreciate the artistry of writers with whom we may not be familiar, such as Chuck Wachtel and Wanda Coleman. And she hails the songwriter Joni Mitchell as a major contemporary poet. Daring, erudite, entertaining, and infused throughout with Paglia??Ts inimitable style and passion, this beautifully written book??"??"and the dazzling mind behind it??"??"will entice readers to begin or renew a passionate engagement with poetry. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Tue Mar 8 12:53:53 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:53:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology -- anthologist's fate In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9FE@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9FE@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <9791773.1110304433661.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, March 08, 2005, at 12:35PM, Graham, David wrote: > I've not seen the anthology, which contains a number of names new to me. Sic transit gloria, as >always. > >Louis Untermeyer's wife did establish a reputation apart from Louis, as I recall. I seem to >remember a certain amount of comment about how she was a better poet than Louis, anyway. Lots of >comments, too, on how many pages LU gave himself in his many anthologies, also. > >Untermeyer's true immortality was in e.e. cummings's savage epigram: > > mr u will not be missed > who as an anthologist > sold the many on the few > not excluding mr u > >(that's quoted from memory, may not be precise) Oscaw Williams once anthologized George Starbuck's "A Tapestry for Bayeux," an account of WWII naval operations writtien in 12 13-line stanzas of dactylic monometer. Manic enough, but the first 78 lines were also an acrostic: "Oscar Williams fills a need but a monkey ward catalog is softer and gives you something to read" When Williams learned of this, Starbuck was banned from future anthologies. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin Tue Mar 8 12:55:04 2005 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:55:04 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <014e01c52407$fbebe900$fb351c40@Emily> Kerry, I agree with you completely about Levine, and lots of other "working class" poets out there who have comfy sinecures. Tony -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kerry O'Keefe Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:14 AM To: Graham, David Cc: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine again I think of the life as a poet that he has lived - writing, teaching, reading, and yet always harkening back to the lower middle class. This has been mentioned before but finally, isn't it a little scandalous? There really are educated enlightened people that decide to embrace that life but it didn't seem like he did. And isn't his regret expressed from the comfort of his fame and position... Reminds me a little of that Joni Mitchell song - "He was Playing Real Good for Free" - a kind of wistfulness that is really a bit privileged. I guess I have a little horror at reaching the age of eighty and not having a sense of, at least, largesse of my life. If he thinks he has hidden, well, shame on him for having hidden... Yes. I am judgmental. It is part of my elusive charm. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 Tue Mar 8 13:07:57 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:07:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology Message-ID: In a message dated 3/8/2005 11:29:12 AM Central Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > Louis Untermeyer's wife did establish a reputation apart from Louis, as I > recall. I seem to remember a certain amount of comment about how she was a > better poet than Louis, anyway. Lots of comments, too, on how many pages LU > gave himself in his many anthologies, also. > > Untermeyer's true immortality was in e.e. cummings's savage epigram: > > mr u will not be missed > who as an anthologist > sold the many on the few > not excluding mr u > > (that's quoted from memory, may not be precise) > > I have Untermeyer's last anthology, 50 Modern American & British Poets, from 1974. No "mr u" and a pretty solid selection from Frost and Stevens through Harrison and Jong. The only poet I don't know is Anna Wickham (1884-1947), an Australian, and she's pretty good--mentioned by L. U. as a precursor to Sexton and Plath. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Tue Mar 8 13:29:32 2005 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:29:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology References: <731bb17a0503080628609969f0@mail.gmail.com><01db01c523fb$9ac54470$750a9942@Helen><731bb17a050308085651d2c14@mail.gmail.com> <008901c52406$27f68c00$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <003201c5240c$c66ae970$a10b9942@Helen> Thanks for posting - I love her work - All those poisonous berries - only god can make them. . . . h ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "Jeff Newberry" ; "NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology > Re the Aline Kilmer poem - yeah, all the kids would have died. Clearly, > Aline was not as sentimental as Joyce. This is a kind of poetry popular at > the time, the mordant witty poem about anti-sentimental subject matter, as > in: > > Little Willie from his mirror > Licked the mercury right off, > Thinking in his childish error, > It would cure the whooping cough. > > At the funeral his mother > Sadly said to Mrs. Brown, > "Twas a chilly day for Willie > When the mercury went down." > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Newberry" > To: "NewPoetry" > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:56 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology > > >> Helen, >> >> I'll quote from the book's introduction: >> >> "Aline Kilmer and Jean Starr Untermeyer were well known in literary >> circles before their books wre published and their poetry is as >> interesting to the public as the poetry of their husbands, Joyce >> Kilmer and Louis Untermeyer." >> >> Apparently, Aline Kilmer had two books--*Candles that Burn* (1919) and >> *Vigils* (1921). According to the book's editor, Marguerite >> Wilkinson, "[Both books] have in them that concise strength of >> personality that makes them both unique and universal." >> >> Here's one of the Aline Kilmer poems: >> >> Song Against Children >> >> O the barberry bright, the barberry bright! >> It stood on the mantelpiece because of the height. >> Its stems were slender and thorny and tall >> And it looked most beautiful against the gray wall. >> But Michael climbed up there in spite of the height >> And he ate all the berries off the barberry bright. >> >> O the round holly wreath, the round holly wreath! >> It hung in the window with ivy beneath. >> It was plump and prosperous, spangled with red >> And it thought it would cheer me although I were dead. >> But Deborah climbed on a table beneath >> And she ate all the berries off the round holly wreath. >> >> O the mistletoe bough, the misteltoe bough! >> Could anyone touch it? I did not see how. >> I hung it up high that it might last long. >> I wreathed it with ribbons and hailed it with song. >> But Christopher reached it, I do not know how, >> And he ate all the berries off teh mistletoe bough. >> >> Well, there you have it. I think that it's a pretty dreadful poem. >> (Wouldn't someond die from eathing holly berries? Or mistletoe?). >> Maybe that's the point. I mean, the title of this thing IS "Song >> AGAINST Childen." Also, the rhyme scheme seems so cutesy in >> conjunction with the subject matter that, to use a scientific term, I >> want to hurl when I read it. >> >> But, I do still like the title. I might steal it. >> >> Jeff Newberry >> >> >> On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:26:33 -0500, Helen Ruggieri >> wrote: >>> Aline Kilmer? Is she Joyce's wife? sister? mother? or just another >>> Kilmer. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jeff Newberry" >>> To: ; "NewPoetry" >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:28 AM >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology >>> >>> > Sam & others, >>> > >>> > You got it: >>> > >>> > --American Poets >>> > James Whitcomb Riley >>> > Eugene Field >>> > Ina Coolbrith >>> > Edwin Markham >>> > Edith M Thomas >>> > Katharine Lee Bates >>> > William Herbert Carruth >>> > Lizette Woodworth Reese >>> > Clinton Scollard >>> > Louise Imogene Guiney >>> > Richard Hovey >>> > Madison Cawein >>> > George Sterling >>> > E.A. Robinson >>> > Edgar Lee Masters >>> > William Vaughn Moody >>> > Arthur Guiterman >>> > Thomas Augustine Daly >>> > Anna Hempstead Branch >>> > Amy Lowell >>> > Ridgely Torrence >>> > Harriet Monroe >>> > Robert Frost >>> > Sarah N. Cleghorn >>> > William Griffith >>> > Carl Sandburg >>> > Florence Wilkinson Evans >>> > Josephine Preston Peabody >>> > Olive Tilford Dargan >>> > Angela Morgan >>> > Grace Hazard Conkling >>> > William Stanely Braithwaite >>> > Robert Haven Schauffler >>> > Vachel Lindsay >>> > John G. Neihardt >>> > Witter Bynner >>> > James Oppenheim >>> > Alfred Kreymborg >>> > Badger Clark >>> > Marguerite Wilkinson (also editor of volume) >>> > Max Eastman >>> > Fannie Stearns Gifford >>> > Eunice Tietjens >>> > Sara Teasdale (includes 6 poems, more than any other poet in volume) >>> > Louis Untermeyer >>> > Jean Starr Untermeyer >>> > John Gould Fletcher >>> > H.D. >>> > William Rose Benet >>> > John Hall Weelock >>> > Joyce Kilmer >>> > Aline Kilmer >>> > Margaret Widdemer >>> > Alan Seeger >>> > Edna St. Vincent Millay >>> > --English, Irish, and Canadian Poets >>> > William Ernest Henley >>> > Robert Louis Stevenson >>> > Alice Meynell >>> > William Henry Durmmond >>> > John Davidson >>> > A.E. Housman >>> > Francis Thompson >>> > Henry Charles Beeching >>> > Charles G.D. Roberts >>> > Bliss Carman >>> > Sir Henry Newbolt >>> > Stephen Phillips >>> > Rudyard Kipling >>> > William Butler Yeats >>> > Richard Le Gallienne >>> > Laurence Binyon >>> > Katharine Tynan >>> > William H. Davies >>> > John McCrae >>> > Ralph Hodgson >>> > Walter De La Mare >>> > Gordon Bottomly >>> > John Masefield >>> > G.K. Chesterson >>> > Evelyn Underhill >>> > Eva Gore-Booth >>> > Edward Thomas >>> > Thomas MacDonagh >>> > Harold Monro >>> > Wilfrid Wilson Gibson >>> > Alfred Noyes >>> > Padraic Colum >>> > Joseph Campbell >>> > John Drinkwater >>> > James Stephens >>> > James Elroy Felcker >>> > Sigfried Sasoon >>> > F.S. Flint >>> > Rupert Brooke >>> > Francis Ledwidge >>> > Richard Aldington >>> > Irene Rugherford McLeod >>> > Moira O'Neill >>> > >>> > It's a huge list for such a little volume (only 372 page, including >>> > both introduction and indices). Most poets have only a poem or two, >>> > and some of the choices are not so much strange as they are >>> > unfamiliar. For instance, I've never seen Robert Frost's "Onset" >>> > anthologized. The introduction of the book makes clear that its >>> > primary purpose is for the classroom; the editor commetns, "This book >>> > is not for mature intellectuals. It is not for specialists. It is >>> > for the young sons and daughters of ordinary intelligent Americans." >>> > >>> > Glancing over the list of names above, I can that some of these I >>> > know; some of these I've heard of; some of these I never knew existed >>> > until I glanced through the book's pages. >>> > >>> > Comments? >>> > >>> > Jeff Newberry >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:14:21 EST, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >>> > wrote: >>> >> It would be interesting to see a complete table of contents for >>> >> the anthology you've mentioned. >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >>> > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > New-Poetry mailing list >>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Tue Mar 8 13:44:35 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:44:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again References: <014e01c52407$fbebe900$fb351c40@Emily> Message-ID: <00c101c5240e$e85f9f10$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> There's not a damn thing wrong with being comfortable, as anyone who comes from working class origins will tell you. Robert Hayden, in his late works, also returned to the Detroit of his childhood for his inspiration. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Robinson" To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:55 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Levine again > Kerry, > > I agree with you completely about Levine, and lots of other "working > class" poets out there who have comfy sinecures. > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kerry O'Keefe > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:14 AM > To: Graham, David > Cc: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine again > > I think of the life as a poet that he has lived - writing, teaching, > reading, and yet always harkening back to the lower middle class. This > has been mentioned before but finally, isn't it a little scandalous? > There really are educated enlightened people that decide to embrace > that life but it didn't seem like he did. And > isn't his regret expressed from the comfort of his fame and position... > > Reminds me a little of that Joni Mitchell song - > "He was Playing Real Good for Free" - a kind of wistfulness that is > really > a bit privileged. > > I guess I have a little horror at reaching the age of eighty and not > having a sense of, at least, largesse of my life. If he thinks he has > hidden, well, shame on him for having hidden... > > Yes. I am judgmental. It is part of my elusive charm. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 8 13:57:26 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:57:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again In-Reply-To: <00c101c5240e$e85f9f10$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <014e01c52407$fbebe900$fb351c40@Emily> <00c101c5240e$e85f9f10$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <731bb17a050308105720208305@mail.gmail.com> I have to agree. I write often about the paper mill and chemical factory that cast a shadow over the town where I grew up. I write about butchers and meat markets, where my father worked himself to death. I write about fishermen whose lives and means of living were destroyed when the state of Florida saw fit to "ban" certain kinds of commerical fishing nets back in 1992 or 93. As a working class kid, I worked briefly unloading produce trucks and briefly in a butcher's market. However, I also worked selling shoes, clerking in a local video rental place, and bagging groceries. I flipped burgers and tended the counter at at Sunshine Jr. Food Store. Me? I left that town when I turned 22. At this point, I think that I'm supposed to say that "I never looked back." Not true. I did look back, and quite often. I do find my subject matter in the gray faces of the men and women who surrounded me when I was a child. I don't mind being a comfortable academic. I don't mind having the time to write and think and look back at my childhood. I feel no sense of guilt when I write about those times. Jeff Newberry On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:44:35 -0500, The Old Mole wrote: > There's not a damn thing wrong with being comfortable, as anyone who comes > from working class origins will tell you. > > Robert Hayden, in his late works, also returned to the Detroit of his > childhood for his inspiration. > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anthony Robinson" > To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:55 PM > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Levine again > > > Kerry, > > > > I agree with you completely about Levine, and lots of other "working > > class" poets out there who have comfy sinecures. > > > > Tony > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kerry O'Keefe > > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:14 AM > > To: Graham, David > > Cc: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine again > > > > I think of the life as a poet that he has lived - writing, teaching, > > reading, and yet always harkening back to the lower middle class. This > > has been mentioned before but finally, isn't it a little scandalous? > > There really are educated enlightened people that decide to embrace > > that life but it didn't seem like he did. And > > isn't his regret expressed from the comfort of his fame and position... > > > > Reminds me a little of that Joni Mitchell song - > > "He was Playing Real Good for Free" - a kind of wistfulness that is > > really > > a bit privileged. > > > > I guess I have a little horror at reaching the age of eighty and not > > having a sense of, at least, largesse of my life. If he thinks he has > > hidden, well, shame on him for having hidden... > > > > Yes. I am judgmental. It is part of my elusive charm. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From elemenope Tue Mar 8 01:21:53 2005 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:21:53 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wanda Coleman In-Reply-To: <200503081700.j28H050t028216@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200503081700.j28H050t028216@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: A decade ago on a marketing exploration for ELEMENOPE Productions including Beyond Baroque in Venice, California, I encountered Wanda Coleman at a reading in Los Angeles up on Hollywood Boulevard. An intense character; no Hollywood smile; she looked up at me from her table through the smoke and didn't talk. -- From chan_jt Tue Mar 8 14:40:18 2005 From: chan_jt (JT Chan) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:40:18 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] new issue of zine online Message-ID: hello everyone, the new issue (issue 16) of PoetrySz:demystifying mental illness is now online at http://www.poetrysz.net. This issue features work by Steve Dalachinsky, Jesse Auchter, George Kerr, Bruce Stater, Colin Van der Woude, and the winners of the Poetry_sz mailing list contest Jonathan, and Mark Phillips. Submissions are welcome. Send 4-6 poems and a short contributor's note in the body of your email to poetrysz at yahoo.com. Please read the submission guidelines before submitting. Thank you. Regards, JChan The Editor _________________________________________________________________ Surf the net and talk on the phone with Xtra JetStream @ http://xtra.co.nz/jetstream From wjbat Tue Mar 8 15:31:33 2005 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:31:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9FE@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9FE@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2005, at 12:28 PM, Graham, David wrote: > Louis Untermeyer's wife did establish a reputation apart from Louis How nice for her. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html Wandering far, going alone, bodiless, lying in a cave: the mind. -Dhammapada, 3 From antrobin Tue Mar 8 15:41:54 2005 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:41:54 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again In-Reply-To: <00c101c5240e$e85f9f10$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <015a01c5241f$4b497aa0$fb351c40@Emily> Tad, I know there's nothing wrong with being comfortable, though I have yet to experience it--I come from working class origins and am STILL in school after ten years or so. My comments about Levine, in response to Kerry's post were a bit of reflexive knee-jerking on my part. I've never been a fan of Levine--though I think he gives marvelous interviews, and writes good prose--but have known many people who were die-hard fans. Without a doubt, these are the same people (and others like them) who have tried to shove the working-class trip down my throat--you come from HERE you must write about that life. Well, when I turned 18, I moved out of my little logging town, and unlike Jeff N., never looked back. I have no desire to write about that, or romanticize a past a childhood that seemed pretty bleak to me at the time. Maybe I will in the future, but not now. In any case, I've gotten myself into countless discussions, arguments, etc. with perfectly well-meaning people (both professors and aspiring poets) who have made me feel like an irresponsible fool for not writing poems about my geographical and cultural roots. The irony in this sort of stance was pointed out by Kerry--most of our famous "working class" poets are quite comfortable and haven't "worked" as such in years, but have no problem using this material and striking a public "working class stance" so as to appeal to the masses, who probably don't read poetry anyway, and if they do, probably don't like to be condescended to by such work. But, that's my highly personal take on a touchy subject for me. In any case, no real beef here--I just wanted to clarify my earlier comment. Tony -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of The Old Mole Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 10:45 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine again There's not a damn thing wrong with being comfortable, as anyone who comes from working class origins will tell you. Robert Hayden, in his late works, also returned to the Detroit of his childhood for his inspiration. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Robinson" To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:55 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Levine again > Kerry, > > I agree with you completely about Levine, and lots of other "working > class" poets out there who have comfy sinecures. > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kerry O'Keefe > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:14 AM > To: Graham, David > Cc: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine again > > I think of the life as a poet that he has lived - writing, teaching, > reading, and yet always harkening back to the lower middle class. This > has been mentioned before but finally, isn't it a little scandalous? > There really are educated enlightened people that decide to embrace > that life but it didn't seem like he did. And > isn't his regret expressed from the comfort of his fame and position... > > Reminds me a little of that Joni Mitchell song - > "He was Playing Real Good for Free" - a kind of wistfulness that is > really > a bit privileged. > > I guess I have a little horror at reaching the age of eighty and not > having a sense of, at least, largesse of my life. If he thinks he has > hidden, well, shame on him for having hidden... > > Yes. I am judgmental. It is part of my elusive charm. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames Tue Mar 8 15:48:47 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:48:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again Message-ID: <78.6e5b0055.2f5f69af@aol.com> No, I don't agree with this at all, Kerry & Tony. The world a literature would a much poorer place if writers only wrote their own lives as they happened at the time. Surely one isn't cut off from one's roots and one's early life experiences. I loaded trucks in graduate school and I can tell you I can still smell the insides of the trailers and can feel the tips of my fingers wearing through a pair of gloves every two nightshifts. You don't forget that kind of thing; and probably shouldn't. Can I no longer write about it lo these many years away from it, and with funds in the bank, a nice home, etc.? It's clear from Levines interviews and at readings that he understands the benefits afforded him by becoming a famous poet and a teacher in American academy. I don't think he's 'slumming' in his writing. It's the theme he picked, or picked him, early in life. Here's another poet who is taking up Levine's themes... Winters, Anne The Displaced of Capital. 72 p. 6-1/8 x 8-1/2 2004 Series: (PP) Phoenix Poets Series Cloth $28.00sc 0-226-90233-1 Fall 2004 Paper $14.00 0-226-90235-8 Fall 2004 The long-awaited follow-up to The Key to the City--a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award in 1986--Anne Winters's The Displaced of Capital emanates a quiet and authoritative passion for social justice, embodying the voice of a subtle, sophisticated conscience. The "displaced" in the book's title refers to the poor, the homeless, and the disenfranchised who populate New York, the city that serves at once as gritty backdrop, city of dreams, and urban nightmare. Winters also addresses the culturally, ethnically, and emotionally excluded and, in these politically sensitive poems, writes without sentimentality of a cityscape of tenements and immigrants, offering her poetry as a testament to the lives of have-nots. In the central poem, Winters witnesses the relationship between two women of disparate social classes whose friendship represents the poet's political convictions. With poems both powerful and musical, The Displaced of Capital marks Anne Winters's triumphant return and assures her standing as an essential New York poet.-- Finnegan In a message dated 3/8/2005 12:55:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, antrobin at clipper.net writes: agree with you completely about Levine, and lots of other "working class" poets out there who have comfy sinecures. Tony -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kerry O'Keefe Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:14 AM To: Graham, David Cc: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine again I think of the life as a poet that he has lived - writing, teaching, reading, and yet always harkening back to the lower middle class. This has been mentioned before but finally, isn't it a little scandalous? There really are educated enlightened people that decide to embrace that life but it didn't seem like he did. And isn't his regret expressed from the comfort of his fame and position... Reminds me a little of that Joni Mitchell song - "He was Playing Real Good for Free" - a kind of wistfulness that is really a bit privileged. I guess I have a little horror at reaching the age of eighty and not having a sense of, at least, largesse of my life. If he thinks he has hidden, well, shame on him for having hidden... Yes. I am judgmental. It is part of my elusive charm. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Tue Mar 8 15:55:11 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:55:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology Message-ID: <1d6.382abb12.2f5f6b2f@aol.com> >>> > Badger Clark Reading that Contributors list makes me think we've lost some poetry in our names. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Tue Mar 8 15:59:39 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:59:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology Message-ID: <92.22419333.2f5f6c3b@aol.com> In a message dated 3/8/2005 3:56:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: >>> > Badger Clark On the wondrous web, ol' Badger can be heard reading a poem on this page... http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1081855 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Tue Mar 8 16:03:15 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:03:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again References: <015a01c5241f$4b497aa0$fb351c40@Emily> Message-ID: <000d01c52422$45ae0e50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Tony - it's your choice, just as it's Levine's or Jeff's - or just as it was Hayden's, even when writing about the Middle Passage or the Detroit ghetto, to refuse to be labeled a "black poet." What's right for Levine may be wrong for you, and vice versa. I don't believe Levine, or Jeff, or Hayden, are cynically exploiting subject matter they don't care about in order to appeal to the masses. I suspect they're writing about it because that's what moves them. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Robinson" To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 3:41 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Levine again > Tad, > > I know there's nothing wrong with being comfortable, though I have yet > to experience it--I come from working class origins and am STILL in > school after ten years or so. > > My comments about Levine, in response to Kerry's post were a bit of > reflexive knee-jerking on my part. I've never been a fan of > Levine--though I think he gives marvelous interviews, and writes good > prose--but have known many people who were die-hard fans. Without a > doubt, these are the same people (and others like them) who have tried > to shove the working-class trip down my throat--you come from HERE you > must write about that life. Well, when I turned 18, I moved out of my > little logging town, and unlike Jeff N., never looked back. I have no > desire to write about that, or romanticize a past a childhood that > seemed pretty bleak to me at the time. Maybe I will in the future, but > not now. > > In any case, I've gotten myself into countless discussions, arguments, > etc. with perfectly well-meaning people (both professors and aspiring > poets) who have made me feel like an irresponsible fool for not writing > poems about my geographical and cultural roots. The irony in this sort > of stance was pointed out by Kerry--most of our famous "working class" > poets are quite comfortable and haven't "worked" as such in years, but > have no problem using this material and striking a public "working class > stance" so as to appeal to the masses, who probably don't read poetry > anyway, and if they do, probably don't like to be condescended to by > such work. But, that's my highly personal take on a touchy subject for > me. > > In any case, no real beef here--I just wanted to clarify my earlier > comment. > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of The Old Mole > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 10:45 AM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine again > > There's not a damn thing wrong with being comfortable, as anyone who > comes > from working class origins will tell you. > > Robert Hayden, in his late works, also returned to the Detroit of his > childhood for his inspiration. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anthony Robinson" > To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:55 PM > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Levine again > > >> Kerry, >> >> I agree with you completely about Levine, and lots of other "working >> class" poets out there who have comfy sinecures. >> >> Tony >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kerry O'Keefe >> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:14 AM >> To: Graham, David >> Cc: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine again >> >> I think of the life as a poet that he has lived - writing, teaching, >> reading, and yet always harkening back to the lower middle class. > This >> has been mentioned before but finally, isn't it a little scandalous? >> There really are educated enlightened people that decide to embrace >> that life but it didn't seem like he did. And >> isn't his regret expressed from the comfort of his fame and > position... >> >> Reminds me a little of that Joni Mitchell song - >> "He was Playing Real Good for Free" - a kind of wistfulness that is >> really >> a bit privileged. >> >> I guess I have a little horror at reaching the age of eighty and not >> having a sense of, at least, largesse of my life. If he thinks he has >> hidden, well, shame on him for having hidden... >> >> Yes. I am judgmental. It is part of my elusive charm. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Tue Mar 8 16:04:13 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:04:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology References: <1d6.382abb12.2f5f6b2f@aol.com> Message-ID: <001c01c52422$6880d9d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> We still have Forrest Gander. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology >>> > Badger Clark Reading that Contributors list makes me think we've lost some poetry in our names. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Tue Mar 8 16:09:00 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:09:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] How nice for her... Message-ID: Not sure who, but someone (probably one of us men) said: > Louis Untermeyer's wife did establish a reputation apart from Louis Then Wendy Battin said: >>How nice for her. That was a funny one... On a different note, I've always thought of Richard Kostelanetz (sp?) as a sort of "avant-garde" Louis Untermeyer. Poor guy... From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 8 16:18:14 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:18:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] How nice for her... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a05030813181525e931@mail.gmail.com> Yes, and Wendy's reply seemed a bit nasty, though I may be reading her comment incorrectly. I suppose I'm just a backwoods, redneck idiot, but I don't sense anything at all sexist about the comment, "Louis Untermeyer's wife did establish a reputation apart from Louis." I mean, come on. Is it the "did" in the sentence? Or it it just the reference to Louis himself? It's not like their last name is Smith or White. "Untermeyer" is unique, and anyone who knows of Louis's work might wonder if Jean Starr Untermeyer were related to him if the reader came across her poetry. I don't mean to be nasty at all. I'm just wondering. Thoughts? Jeff Newberry On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:09:00 -0600, Kent Johnson wrote: > Not sure who, but someone (probably one of us men) said: > > > Louis Untermeyer's wife did establish a reputation apart from Louis > > Then Wendy Battin said: > > >>How nice for her. > > That was a funny one... On a different note, I've always thought of > Richard Kostelanetz (sp?) as a sort of "avant-garde" Louis Untermeyer. > Poor guy... > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From antrobin Tue Mar 8 16:18:51 2005 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:18:51 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again In-Reply-To: <000d01c52422$45ae0e50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <017201c52424$743a7d60$fb351c40@Emily> Tad, I think we're talking past each other a bit here. I understand that it's Levine's right to write about whatever he wants. The ax I'm grinding is not with Levine per se, (though I still mostly fail to understand his appeal), but with those who would prevent the poet from a "working class" or "ethnic" background from exploring other subject matter and styles of writing. I guess I've just been unfortunate enough to run into these sorts more frequently than others. In fact, out here in my part of Oregon, that's really the only "kind" of poet one finds. I don't believe that the poets you mentioned are necessarily cynically exploiting subject matter, but I do find it ironic that most of them are quite removed from the pain they purport to feel, AND that these tend to be the same poets who eschew "difficulty" or "experiment" AND claim that what the average American poetry reader wants is prosey narrative about how hard life is. That, to me, is condescending. If, as a young 20 year old poetry reader, with no college education as of yet, someone, say a "famous" poet, had suggested this to me, I would have been offended. Since we're talking about working class poets, I'd mention Ginger Andrews and Joe Millar (both Oregonians) as poets who work this ground but have also lived (and in Andrews' case) continue to live the life they write about. Now that, I can respect. I realize, though, that on this list, my viewpoint may be a minority one (no pun intended). I have personal issues that I really can't separate from a purely intellectual treatment of this topic. I do like to see it brought up from time to time. All best, Tony From Kent.Johnson Tue Mar 8 16:20:16 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:20:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets vs. U of Iowa Press Message-ID: On Foetry, from Inside Higher Ed.: http://insidehighered.com/insider/poets_v_u_of_iowa_press From MillB Tue Mar 8 16:37:45 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:37:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets vs. U of Iowa Press Message-ID: <84.40e0fb98.2f5f7529@aol.com> Interesting article. Very. I have to agree on two points: 1) Most competitions and contests in the poetry world and the non-poetry world state in their rules that no current or past employees or relatives of such are eligible. Why doesn't U of Iowa instate this rule? 2) Any so-called "blind" contest among poets and teachers may not be as blind as would be supposed since if a teacher has helped shape a mss or worked with a student on individual poems, that work will probably be recognized. The only way (I can think of) to stop that is to have entrants write in an enclosed environment (like SAT or CBEST), but even then, perhaps unique subject matter or style could be recognized. Difficult situation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Tue Mar 8 16:48:52 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:48:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again Message-ID: Tony, I could be wrong, but could I ask: I was wondering if part of the reason you have resisted making your ethnic background a central or even visible subject matter of your work is that you've 1) sensed members of the dominant poetic culture *wanting* you to parade it and 2) sensed them wanting you to parade it primarily because a little bit of exoticness in the mix helps *them* feel good? Is your resistance a resistance to a racism that hides itself under the burqa of political correctness? Of course, that's a very awkward way of asking about a very complicated situation. From tad Tue Mar 8 17:14:36 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:14:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again References: <017201c52424$743a7d60$fb351c40@Emily> Message-ID: <004801c5242c$3b7a5100$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Tony - here in my part of the world, the only poets are neo-Beats, so I don't exactly fit in either, so I can empathize with you there. But I'm a little luckier, in that they all pretty much accept that I don't write that way, and they don't seem to hold it against me. I go along with you part way, as I said. I don't think anyone has a right to tell you to to write about anything that doesn't work for you. I almost never write anything autobiographical, and I'm not likely to start any time soon. But then you lose me. When you start talking about "the pain they purport to feel," I'd say you ARE saying they're cynically exploiting subject matter. And for the rest of it, maybe I've lived too sheltered a life. I've never read anything where Levine claims that what the average American poetry reader wants is prosey narrative about how hard life is. And to suggest that Levine (or Jeff Newberry, or any other poet) is writing out of some commercial formula calculatedly designed to please the average American poetry reader is yet another way of accusing them of cynical exploitation. And I just don't believe any of this. You don't have to like Levine's poetry to accept the proposition that he's genuine in his creative interests. And I don't know Levine, but it would be my guess that if you were to run into him, and ask him, "Mr. Levine, do you believe there's anything wrong with a poet from a working class background NOT writing about his working class roots?", the answer would be, "Fuck, no!" Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Robinson" To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:18 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Levine again > Tad, > > I think we're talking past each other a bit here. > > I understand that it's Levine's right to write about whatever he wants. > The ax I'm grinding is not with Levine per se, (though I still mostly > fail to understand his appeal), but with those who would prevent the > poet from a "working class" or "ethnic" background from exploring other > subject matter and styles of writing. I guess I've just been unfortunate > enough to run into these sorts more frequently than others. In fact, out > here in my part of Oregon, that's really the only "kind" of poet one > finds. > > I don't believe that the poets you mentioned are necessarily cynically > exploiting subject matter, but I do find it ironic that most of them are > quite removed from the pain they purport to feel, AND that these tend to > be the same poets who eschew "difficulty" or "experiment" AND claim that > what the average American poetry reader wants is prosey narrative about > how hard life is. That, to me, is condescending. If, as a young 20 year > old poetry reader, with no college education as of yet, someone, say a > "famous" poet, had suggested this to me, I would have been offended. > > Since we're talking about working class poets, I'd mention Ginger > Andrews and Joe Millar (both Oregonians) as poets who work this ground > but have also lived (and in Andrews' case) continue to live the life > they write about. Now that, I can respect. > > I realize, though, that on this list, my viewpoint may be a minority one > (no pun intended). I have personal issues that I really can't separate > from a purely intellectual treatment of this topic. I do like to see it > brought up from time to time. > > All best, > Tony > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From antrobin Tue Mar 8 17:14:47 2005 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:14:47 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <018601c5242c$4e4ae7e0$fb351c40@Emily> Kent, You hit the clich?d nail on the head. Yes, this IS why I've resisted it. On one hand, I'm not interested in making poetry out of my background or my "people"--meaning my family, Latinos in general, the working-class folks and rednecks I grew up with, etc. and so forth. As a younger man (not that I'm ancient now) I looked to poetry as an escape from all that. These are issues that for me grow increasingly important as I get older. I haven't bothered writing much poetry about them, though I do work through them from time to time in hurried prose on my blog. I don't know where I'm going with my own work in the future, but I resent being told that I have a very limited range of thematic and stylistic options. When I was about 24 or so, still working my way through college, I spent an evening with a woman I hadn't seen since 10th grade. A pretty middle-class white girl, she had left Oregon for Chicago and gone to college and immersed herself in Latino culture. She only dated Latino men, she worked for community programs, spoke flawless Spanish, etc. When she heard that I was working on an English degree she said something like, "Why don't you get into a field that helps YOUR PEOPLE?" This offended me greatly, and I put an end to our date. A few years later, a famous "ethnic" poet in an MFA program said "Why don't you write about YOUR PEOPLE." I left the program. I'm not the sort of person who sees racism everywhere I look, but these two instances are an example, I think, of a very insidious form of racism. Of course, there are class issues involved as well. Yes. It's very complicated. Tony -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 1:49 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again Tony, I could be wrong, but could I ask: I was wondering if part of the reason you have resisted making your ethnic background a central or even visible subject matter of your work is that you've 1) sensed members of the dominant poetic culture *wanting* you to parade it and 2) sensed them wanting you to parade it primarily because a little bit of exoticness in the mix helps *them* feel good? Is your resistance a resistance to a racism that hides itself under the burqa of political correctness? Of course, that's a very awkward way of asking about a very complicated situation. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tad Tue Mar 8 17:20:22 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:20:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again References: <018601c5242c$4e4ae7e0$fb351c40@Emily> Message-ID: <005801c5242d$0a10f960$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Very complicated and very simple. The only thing that matters is the quality of your work. I probably shouldn't use this word twice in two consecutive posts, but I might as well get it out of my system. You have every right to tell them to go fuck themselves, and I'd support you a hundred percent. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Robinson" To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:14 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Levine again Kent, You hit the clich?d nail on the head. Yes, this IS why I've resisted it. On one hand, I'm not interested in making poetry out of my background or my "people"--meaning my family, Latinos in general, the working-class folks and rednecks I grew up with, etc. and so forth. As a younger man (not that I'm ancient now) I looked to poetry as an escape from all that. These are issues that for me grow increasingly important as I get older. I haven't bothered writing much poetry about them, though I do work through them from time to time in hurried prose on my blog. I don't know where I'm going with my own work in the future, but I resent being told that I have a very limited range of thematic and stylistic options. When I was about 24 or so, still working my way through college, I spent an evening with a woman I hadn't seen since 10th grade. A pretty middle-class white girl, she had left Oregon for Chicago and gone to college and immersed herself in Latino culture. She only dated Latino men, she worked for community programs, spoke flawless Spanish, etc. When she heard that I was working on an English degree she said something like, "Why don't you get into a field that helps YOUR PEOPLE?" This offended me greatly, and I put an end to our date. A few years later, a famous "ethnic" poet in an MFA program said "Why don't you write about YOUR PEOPLE." I left the program. I'm not the sort of person who sees racism everywhere I look, but these two instances are an example, I think, of a very insidious form of racism. Of course, there are class issues involved as well. Yes. It's very complicated. Tony -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 1:49 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again Tony, I could be wrong, but could I ask: I was wondering if part of the reason you have resisted making your ethnic background a central or even visible subject matter of your work is that you've 1) sensed members of the dominant poetic culture *wanting* you to parade it and 2) sensed them wanting you to parade it primarily because a little bit of exoticness in the mix helps *them* feel good? Is your resistance a resistance to a racism that hides itself under the burqa of political correctness? Of course, that's a very awkward way of asking about a very complicated situation. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman Tue Mar 8 17:26:06 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:26:06 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D____Break=2C_Blow=2C?= =?utf-8?Q?_Burn:_Camille_Paglia_Reads_Fort?= =?utf-8?Q?y-three_of_the_World=E2=80=99s_Best_Poem?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= References: <1a5.329970d3.2f5e3cd3@aol.com> Message-ID: <025a01c5242d$d23034b0$a9b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> A bit more description of the book... http://www.primapublishing.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375420843 Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-three of the World?s Best Poems is destined to become a landmark. In it, America?s premier intellectual provocateur explores and celebrates a series of great poems of the Western tradition, including some surprising discoveries of her own. She brings new energy and insight to our understanding of poems we already know, such as masterpieces by Shakespeare, Donne, Shelley, Dickinson, Lowell, and Plath. She leads us to appreciate the artistry of writers with whom we may not be familiar, such as Chuck Wachtel and Wanda Coleman. And she hails the songwriter Joni Mitchell as a major contemporary poet. Daring, erudite, entertaining, and infused throughout with Paglia?s inimitable style and passion, this beautifully written book??and the dazzling mind behind it??will entice readers to begin or renew a passionate engagement with poetry. Doesn't sound as earth-shaking as it did when first described here. It's just another pedestrian trip through the standards with a few off-beat items added--and no poems by contemporary big names in the field. So what? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Tue Mar 8 17:31:42 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:31:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA03@URANIUM.ripon.college> > Very complicated and very simple. The only thing that matters is the quality > of your work. I probably shouldn't use this word twice in two consecutive > posts, but I might as well get it out of my system. You have every right to > tell them to go fuck themselves, and I'd support you a hundred percent. > > Tad Richards ========================== I agree, too. What I don't quite understand, though I find the discussion very interesting, is what it has to do with the poems of Philip Levine. I'm not playing dumb; I honestly don't see where he implies any program for other poets, or why writing about his youthful experiences ought to be considered out of bounds, any more than Sharon Olds ought to stop writing about sex. I mean, if one resents being told what to write, all the more reason to leave Levine (or anyone) to their own particular obsessions. Well, maybe Olds *should* stop writing about sex, if the poems have lost their resonance, if she's no longer able to make them matter. But no sooner does the subject of class arise with Levine than we seem to leave his actual poems far behind. Happens just about every time I've seen this thread come up. Does the poem I posted "romanticize" or otherwise falsify working class experience, for instance? Just wondering if that might be worth considering. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin Tue Mar 8 17:45:08 2005 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:45:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA03@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <019301c52430$822cc750$fb351c40@Emily> David, Good point. I should keep my mouth shut, as I really don't have much to say about Levine himself or his poems, just those who tried to shove him down my throat. Mea culpa. Back to lurk mode! Tony >But no sooner does the subject of class arise with Levine than we seem to leave his actual poems far behind. Happens just about >every time I've seen this thread come up. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Tue Mar 8 17:50:24 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:50:24 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again References: <019301c52430$822cc750$fb351c40@Emily> Message-ID: <008401c52431$37029240$cbec3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> Levine againI don't think there is any mea culpa and I found the discussion interesting, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: Anthony Robinson To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views' Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:45 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Levine again David, Good point. I should keep my mouth shut, as I really don't have much to say about Levine himself or his poems, just those who tried to shove him down my throat. Mea culpa. Back to lurk mode! Tony >But no sooner does the subject of class arise with Levine than we seem to leave his actual poems far behind. Happens just about >every time I've seen this thread come up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Tue Mar 8 17:54:58 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:54:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Rebellion of E.E. Cummings Message-ID: March-April 2005 http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/030585.html The Rebellion of E.E. Cummings The poet's artful reaction against his father--and his alma mater by Adam Kirsch The most notorious and beloved child in modern American poetry is E.E. Cummings. Even readers who seldom read poetry recognize the distinctive shape that a Cummings poem makes on the page: the blizzard of punctuation, the words running together or suddenly breaking part, the type spilling like a liquid from one line to the next: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat Tue Mar 8 17:57:33 2005 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:57:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] How nice for her... In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05030813181525e931@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a05030813181525e931@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2005, at 4:18 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Yes, and Wendy's reply seemed a bit nasty, though I may be reading her > comment incorrectly. Nasty? If David thought so, I apologize. I was just savoring the diction of another age and replying in kind. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html Yet he hath ever but slenderly known himself. --Shakespeare (by Regan, of Lear) From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 8 18:18:47 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:18:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again In-Reply-To: <008401c52431$37029240$cbec3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> References: <019301c52430$822cc750$fb351c40@Emily> <008401c52431$37029240$cbec3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <731bb17a05030815182155e63a@mail.gmail.com> As did I. I shot off my mouth, Tony, and in reading my post, I can see why you might resent such "chip on my shoulder" stuff coming from an academic. I agree with you, however, on your main point. I can remember a teacher telling me that I shouldn't write a poem set in New York City as I'd never been there. I don't remember the poem exactly, but it was a dramatic monologue about a guy waiting in line to pick up a welfare check. It wasn't very good, but rather than talking about the possibility of the form or the presentation of the voice, the teacher asked, "Why isn't this set in Panama City or Tallahassee?" My response should have been, "Because that's not where I set it." But, being a first-year grad student and out to learn all that I could, I simply said that I didn't know. That same teacher tried to cultivate in me poems about myself and my background. At the time, I hated confessionalism overall, and in some ways still do. But I also don't see anything wrong with writing about my past. I just don't think that it should be an exclusive subject, nor do I think that every poem written about someone's "truthful" past is successful. As a poet, I'm very much a failure in many respects because a great, great number of my poems are just that--failures. In the same sense, I don't see anything wrong with making up things for your poems or "inventing truth," to borrow a phrase from Machado. I think that for me, poetry is ultimately about the limits and the possibilities of language. Subject matter is important, but usually secondary. I like to work with a phrase or a word or maybe a line or two, sometimes that I've stolen. I like to see what emerges. Sometimes, it's about me and Port St. Joe, Florida. These days, more often than not, it's not about me. So, let me end by saying "mea culpa." I fired off with a typical response, probably the kind that you loathe. I've enjoyed the discussion, however. Please do post. Yours, Jeff Newberry On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:50:24 +0100, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I don't think there is any mea culpa and I found the discussion interesting, > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather > admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anthony Robinson > To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views' > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:45 PM > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Levine again > > > > David, > > > > Good point. I should keep my mouth shut, as I really don't have much to > say about Levine himself or his poems, just those who tried to shove him > down my throat. Mea culpa. > > Back to lurk mode! > > > > Tony > > > > >But no sooner does the subject of class arise with Levine than we seem to > leave his actual poems far behind. Happens just about >every time I've seen > this thread come up. > > > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 8 18:19:41 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:19:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] How nice for her... In-Reply-To: References: <731bb17a05030813181525e931@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a05030815193ab76602@mail.gmail.com> Sorry Wendy. I can see what you were doing now. Yours, Jeff Newberry On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:57:33 -0500, Wendy Battin wrote: > On Mar 8, 2005, at 4:18 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > Yes, and Wendy's reply seemed a bit nasty, though I may be reading her > > comment incorrectly. > > Nasty? If David thought so, I apologize. I was just savoring the > diction of another age and replying in kind. > > Wendy > > Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu > http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html > > Yet he hath ever but slenderly known himself. > > --Shakespeare > (by Regan, of Lear) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From tad Tue Mar 8 18:25:51 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:25:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] How nice for her... References: <731bb17a05030813181525e931@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01c52436$2d887a40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Let's say...a bit crusty? And I appreciated it. Thought it was funny as hell. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy Battin" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] How nice for her... > On Mar 8, 2005, at 4:18 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: >> Yes, and Wendy's reply seemed a bit nasty, though I may be reading her >> comment incorrectly. > > Nasty? If David thought so, I apologize. I was just savoring the diction > of another age and replying in kind. > > Wendy > > > Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu > http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html > > Yet he hath ever but slenderly known himself. > > --Shakespeare > (by Regan, of Lear) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From wjbat Tue Mar 8 18:30:09 2005 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:30:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] How nice for her... In-Reply-To: <001f01c52436$2d887a40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <731bb17a05030813181525e931@mail.gmail.com> <001f01c52436$2d887a40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2005, at 6:25 PM, The Old Mole wrote: > Let's say...a bit crusty? > > And I appreciated it. Thought it was funny as hell. Thanks, Tad. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go cook dinner for my husband the poet. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html Even a very mild mystic is aberrant in our culture. ---Ruth Benedict, "The Concept of the Normal" From tad Tue Mar 8 18:32:06 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:32:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again References: <019301c52430$822cc750$fb351c40@Emily><008401c52431$37029240$cbec3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> <731bb17a05030815182155e63a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002401c52437$0fe5b240$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I must be in a mood to take everything the wrong way today. Jeff, I don't think that was such bad feedback from your creative writing prof. You're theree to learn, and that means trying things different ways. How would the poem be different if it was set in Tallahassee? You give it a try. If it turns out you that New York - or your imagined New York - really nails it, you can go back. And still maybe learned something from something you tried and rejected. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Newberry" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine again > As did I. I shot off my mouth, Tony, and in reading my post, I can > see why you might resent such "chip on my shoulder" stuff coming from > an academic. > > I agree with you, however, on your main point. I can remember a > teacher telling me that I shouldn't write a poem set in New York City > as I'd never been there. I don't remember the poem exactly, but it > was a dramatic monologue about a guy waiting in line to pick up a > welfare check. It wasn't very good, but rather than talking about the > possibility of the form or the presentation of the voice, the teacher > asked, "Why isn't this set in Panama City or Tallahassee?" My > response should have been, "Because that's not where I set it." But, > being a first-year grad student and out to learn all that I could, I > simply said that I didn't know. That same teacher tried to cultivate > in me poems about myself and my background. > > At the time, I hated confessionalism overall, and in some ways still > do. But I also don't see anything wrong with writing about my past. > I just don't think that it should be an exclusive subject, nor do I > think that every poem written about someone's "truthful" past is > successful. As a poet, I'm very much a failure in many respects > because a great, great number of my poems are just that--failures. In > the same sense, I don't see anything wrong with making up things for > your poems or "inventing truth," to borrow a phrase from Machado. I > think that for me, poetry is ultimately about the limits and the > possibilities of language. Subject matter is important, but usually > secondary. I like to work with a phrase or a word or maybe a line or > two, sometimes that I've stolen. I like to see what emerges. > Sometimes, it's about me and Port St. Joe, Florida. These days, more > often than not, it's not about me. > > So, let me end by saying "mea culpa." I fired off with a typical > response, probably the kind that you loathe. > > I've enjoyed the discussion, however. > > Please do post. > > Yours, > > Jeff Newberry > > > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:50:24 +0100, Anny Ballardini > wrote: >> I don't think there is any mea culpa and I found the discussion >> interesting, >> >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather >> admirers. >> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Anthony Robinson >> To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views' >> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:45 PM >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Levine again >> >> >> >> David, >> >> >> >> Good point. I should keep my mouth shut, as I really don't have much to >> say about Levine himself or his poems, just those who tried to shove him >> down my throat. Mea culpa. >> >> Back to lurk mode! >> >> >> >> Tony >> >> >> >> >But no sooner does the subject of class arise with Levine than we seem >> >to >> leave his actual poems far behind. Happens just about >every time I've >> seen >> this thread come up. >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Tue Mar 8 18:50:44 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:50:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] How nice for her... References: <731bb17a05030813181525e931@mail.gmail.com><001f01c52436$2d887a40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <004c01c52439$a78dc8b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> In real life, I'm ghostwriting a book of political philosophy for a conservative woman who believes, among other things, that wives should obey their husbands. I was considering telling her I'd take the job if my wife would let me. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy Battin" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] How nice for her... > On Mar 8, 2005, at 6:25 PM, The Old Mole wrote: >> Let's say...a bit crusty? >> >> And I appreciated it. Thought it was funny as hell. > > Thanks, Tad. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go cook dinner for my > husband the poet. > > Wendy > > > Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu > http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html > > Even a very mild mystic is aberrant in our culture. > ---Ruth Benedict, "The Concept of the Normal" > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman Tue Mar 8 19:21:13 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:21:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anyone Know Leslie Pockell, Anthology Editor? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307153844.00c25268@incoming.verizon.net><007401c523ef$31f45820$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009001c523ef$82d6fa90$86b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a05030807085fb32c22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02c201c5243d$e76f6750$a9b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob, I've gotten all three. > > My messages haven't been showing up to me, either. But according to > others on the list, they can see what I've posted. > > Jeff Newberry I finally got this of yours, and my last Pockell post. One of the people at my server says they've been having e.mail trouble since last Friday. Anyway, things no seem close to normal here. I hope at your end, too. Evidentally, no one knows Leslie Pockell. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Mar 8 19:24:07 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:24:07 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D____Break=2C_Blow=2C_Burn:_Camille_Pag?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?lia_Reads_Forty-three_of_the_World=E2s_Best_Poems?= References: <030820051707.17364.422DDBC300056BF0000043D4220075078402070A9B9C049D0E0A9F9C@comcast.net> <00ac01c52406$4fd32ad0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <02f201c5243e$4f3b3620$a9b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Sarah - I hope you'll post again, and I couldn't agree with you more, right down the line. Tad Richards Well, I for one like the mostly common sense things Paglia says against the feminists. --Bad Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok Tue Mar 8 21:02:29 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:02:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again In-Reply-To: <78.6e5b0055.2f5f69af@aol.com> References: <78.6e5b0055.2f5f69af@aol.com> Message-ID: I don't have any problem with poets writing from all parts of their lives. I wonder about making kind of a career out of one part of your life - when you live, say, three times as long as that period of your life goes on for. But it is not even that. I think what I rankle at, a little, is the slight romanticization (sp?) and wistfulness Levine does at the end of the poem. I have nothing against people getting comfortable - for myself, I am always suspicious of comfort a lttle as lulling me to where I might miss something - but I don't much have to worry, having a knack for keeping myself on the edge one way or the other - so do you see what I mean? Fine, be comfortable, but don't get sentimental at the end of your comfortable life, about those who have not been... hell, I grew up a privileged kid, now barely holding my place in the lower portion of the middle class - I LOVE writing about my mother powdering her bruises to go to The Club...the sound of tennis balls, etc. On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > No, I don't agree with this at all, Kerry & Tony. The world a literature > would a much poorer place if writers only wrote their own > lives as they happened at the time. Surely one isn't cut off > from one's roots and one's early life experiences. I loaded trucks > in graduate school and I can tell you I can still smell > the insides of the trailers and can feel the tips of my fingers > wearing through a pair of gloves every two nightshifts. You don't > forget that kind of thing; and probably shouldn't. Can I no longer > write about it lo these many years away from it, and with > funds in the bank, a nice home, etc.? > > It's clear from Levines interviews and at readings that he > understands the benefits afforded him by becoming a famous > poet and a teacher in American academy. I don't think he's > 'slumming' in his writing. It's the theme he picked, or picked > him, early in life. > > Here's another poet who is taking up Levine's themes... > Winters, Anne The Displaced of Capital. 72 p. 6-1/8 x 8-1/2 2004 Series: (PP) > Phoenix Poets Series > > Cloth $28.00sc 0-226-90233-1 Fall 2004 > > Paper $14.00 0-226-90235-8 Fall 2004 > > The long-awaited follow-up to The Key to the City--a finalist for the > National Book Critics Circle Award in 1986--Anne Winters's The Displaced of Capital > emanates a quiet and authoritative passion for social justice, embodying the > voice of a subtle, sophisticated conscience. > > The "displaced" in the book's title refers to the poor, the homeless, and the > disenfranchised who populate New York, the city that serves at once as gritty > backdrop, city of dreams, and urban nightmare. Winters also addresses the > culturally, ethnically, and emotionally excluded and, in these politically > sensitive poems, writes without sentimentality of a cityscape of tenements and > immigrants, offering her poetry as a testament to the lives of have-nots. In the > central poem, Winters witnesses the relationship between two women of disparate > social classes whose friendship represents the poet's political convictions. > With poems both powerful and musical, The Displaced of Capital marks Anne > Winters's triumphant return and assures her standing as an essential New York > poet.-- > > Finnegan > > In a message dated 3/8/2005 12:55:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, > antrobin at clipper.net writes: > agree with you completely about Levine, and lots of other "working > class" poets out there who have comfy sinecures. > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kerry O'Keefe > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:14 AM > To: Graham, David > Cc: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine again > > I think of the life as a poet that he has lived - writing, teaching, > reading, and yet always harkening back to the lower middle class. This > has been mentioned before but finally, isn't it a little scandalous? > There really are educated enlightened people that decide to embrace > that life but it didn't seem like he did. And > isn't his regret expressed from the comfort of his fame and position... > > Reminds me a little of that Joni Mitchell song - > "He was Playing Real Good for Free" - a kind of wistfulness that is > really > a bit privileged. > > I guess I have a little horror at reaching the age of eighty and not > having a sense of, at least, largesse of my life. If he thinks he has > hidden, well, shame on him for having hidden... > > Yes. I am judgmental. It is part of my elusive charm. > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jkok Tue Mar 8 21:08:43 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:08:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again In-Reply-To: <005801c5242d$0a10f960$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <018601c5242c$4e4ae7e0$fb351c40@Emily> <005801c5242d$0a10f960$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Yes! From kpaul Tue Mar 8 22:21:45 2005 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:21:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets vs. U of Iowa Press In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050308222129.H45935@kpaul.spinweb.net> heh. thanks for the link. -kpaul On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Kent Johnson wrote: > On Foetry, from Inside Higher Ed.: > > http://insidehighered.com/insider/poets_v_u_of_iowa_press > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From kpaul Tue Mar 8 22:28:54 2005 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:28:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets vs. U of Iowa Press In-Reply-To: <20050308222129.H45935@kpaul.spinweb.net> References: <20050308222129.H45935@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <20050308222751.M45935@kpaul.spinweb.net> someone should really 'go after' poetry.com. sure, the noise/signal ratio there is awful, but to me it's a big scam. if you enter a poem on their site you get the magical letter saying you've won (the chance to pay them for a book with *your* poem...) sigh. a non-poet born every minute, i guess... -kpaul On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, kpaul mallasch wrote: > heh. thanks for the link. > > -kpaul > > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Kent Johnson wrote: > >> On Foetry, from Inside Higher Ed.: >> >> http://insidehighered.com/insider/poets_v_u_of_iowa_press >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Wed Mar 9 08:59:09 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:59:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA03@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <04a001c524b0$2ad23370$a9b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Levine again What I don't quite understand, though I find the discussion very interesting, is what it has to do with the poems of Philip Levine. I'm not playing dumb; I honestly don't see where he implies any program for other poets, or why writing about his youthful experiences ought to be considered out of bounds, any more than Sharon Olds ought to stop writing about sex. I mean, if one resents being told what to write, all the more reason to leave Levine (or anyone) to their own particular obsessions. I don't care what Levine, an occasionally interesting very mnor poet, writes, but I suspect those who say he ought to branch out or whatever assume they'll be taken to mean simply that if he wants to be a better poet than his critics think him, he ought to branch out or whatever. It's not a matter of telling anyone what to write so much as a matter of encouraging wide range. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Mar 9 09:22:38 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:22:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] How nice for her... References: Message-ID: <04cc01c524b3$72fc7220$a9b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > That was a funny one... On a different note, I've always thought of > Richard Kostelanetz (sp?) as a sort of "avant-garde" Louis Untermeyer. > Poor guy... > That's absurd. Not only has Kostelanetz composed a number of first-rate poems, which Untermeyer never did so far as I know, but how can someone doing, and writing about, unconventional poetry as Kostelanetz is, be likened to someone who is famous for ignoring unconventional poetry? My retort was going to be, no, Eliot Weinberger is the "avant garde" Louis Untermeyer--but Untermeyer did not claim to be championing "advanced" poetry while only including conventional poetry in his anthologies. --Bob G. From Kent.Johnson Wed Mar 9 09:52:59 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 08:52:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Shakespeare's #71 Message-ID: The below at Kasey Silem Mohammads blog, Lime Tree. http://limetree.ksilem.com/ Mohammad is one of the leading figures, poetical and critical, of the younger "post-avant" generation. Sending this, as his discussion connects to some matters recently under debate (the whole meter thread and question of meter's centrality, my urge to the metrical fundamentalists that they read the Russian Formalists and Jakobson, etc. :~ ) Kent * Shakespeare's Sonnet 71 Classroom exercise from this morning: read Sonnet 71 and catalogue the poetic techniques. No longer mourn for me when I am dead Than you shall hear the surly sullen bell Give warning to the world that I am fled >From this vile world, with vilest worms to dwell: Nay, if you read this line, remember not The hand that writ it, for I love you so That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot If thinking on me then should make you woe. O, if, I say, you look upon this verse When I, perhaps, compounded am with clay, Do not so much as my poor name rehearse, But let your love even with my life decay, Lest the wise world should look into your moan And mock you with me after I am gone. What makes the language "poetic" rather than "prosaic" (aside from stock conventions like lineation, rhyme, and meter)? Synthesizing from the total responses, I come up with three main poetic strategies: 1) grammatical, 2) structural, and 3) tropological. Naturally there may be overlaps between two or more of these categories. 1. Grammatical effects might be divided further into grammar proper and syntax. Syntactical deviation is in part a function of meter, but in fact one might say that this is the level on which meter is a significant poetic feature and not just a generic mechanical contrivance. So, for example, the syntactic reversals and tmetic interruptions of phrases ("No longer ... Than you shall hear," "I ... would be forgot," "let your love ... decay" [the ellipses standing in for the interrupting words]). Some of these are more interesting than others; the reversals are almost as prevalent in everyday early modern discourse as in literary usage, so it leads to somewhat of a chicken-and-egg stituation. As for grammar proper, the two most striking deformations in this poem occur at line 8 ("make you woe") and line 13 ("look into your moan"), with their conversions of a noun into an adjective (or verb?) and of a verb into a noun, respectively. That both the affected words are directly related to the central theme of mourning, and that both are directly preceded by a form of the second-person pronoun, serves to connect them to each other and thus further reinforce the impact of the deviation. 2. Structural features would, on the surface, include familiar "poetic" devices like alliteration, assonance, and consonance, as well as the aforementioned stock devices of lineation, meter, etc. These features only achieve true signifying force, however, when their cumulative weight makes itself felt as accessory to a complex of semantically interrelated units. Arguably, one organizing linguistic system in this poem is defined by the dyad mourn | world, the former being the thematic nucleus of the sonnet, and the latter assuming importance by virtue of repetition (it appears three times). Much of the paronomastic play in the poem revolves around sounds (warning, worms, woe, moan, etc.) generable from those two words. There are of course other organizing schemes in the text, and it is important not to overload such aspects of sonic surface with more motivated significance than they can bear. Structural patterns at the level of argument are accommodated by the stanzaic framework of the "English" or "Shakespearean" sonnet: thus, in the first quatrain, the addressee is told to confine his mourning to the length of time it takes for the death bell to announce the author's departure; in the second quatrain, he is directed to read a line of the poet's work without making the associative leap to the actual writing hand; and in the third quatrain and concluding couplet, he is instructed to read the poem without pronouncing the poet's name). There are several ways of charting the progression here. One is to point out the dwindling movement of physical specificity from quatrain to quatrain: from the author's body being devoured by worms to his isolated hand to his bare name. The overall sense is of the speaker's bodily presence fading as the poem advances, until he is completely "gone" at the end of the last line. 3. Some of the most striking poetic effects in the poem arise from simple (or not-so-simple) word choices with metaphoric implications. One example is the "surly sullen" bell that gives "warning": the sense of malice in these terms substantially colors the poem; the negativity resounds in language like "vile," "decay," and "mock." On the other hand, that the speaker goes to "dwell" with worms, and that his body is "compounded" with the earth, both suggest a relatively positive figurative transformation of the process of decomposition: one in which the speaker continues to live on as in a house, and another in which his mortal substance is converted and refined through alchemical means. All of these, I suppose, are types of "figures," in that they are ways of figuring meaning without recourse to direct and/or literal reference. In class we discussed one more way the poem does this, but I'm not sure how to categorize it except under the general grammatical umbrella of ambiguity. In the couplet, the phrase "Lest the ... world ... mock you with me" can be read in at least three ways: 1) "lest the world mock you at the same time that it mocks me"; 2) "lest the world mock you in the same way that I mock you [in this poem?]"; or 3) "lest the world use [the reminding image or thought of] me to mock you." (In their overdetermined way, all these possibilities achieve the same end--the continued presence of the speaker in some form, and thus a qualified negation of "gone.") This isn't the only one of Shakespeare's sonnets that ends on such a note of indeterminacy. And actually, one of my students suggested what might be a fourth poetic strategy under which this example would fit. He asked, in so many words, whether there couldn't be such a thing as an inherently poetic overall meaning. My first (silent) instinct was that this was an "unscientific" throwback to symbolist theory, but I'm not so sure now. Maybe poems are nothing more than expedient apparatuses for the expression of poetic meanings. Banal tautology or legitimate insight? You be the judge. 04:01 PM From mandolin Wed Mar 9 10:25:48 2005 From: mandolin (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:25:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Shakespeare's #71 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438071.1110381948076.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, March 09, 2005, at 10:00AM, Kent Johnson wrote: >The below at Kasey Silem Mohammads blog, Lime Tree. >http://limetree.ksilem.com/ >Mohammad is one of the leading figures, poetical and critical, of the >younger "post-avant" generation. Sending this, as his discussion >connects to some matters recently under debate (the whole meter thread >and question of meter's centrality, my urge to the metrical >fundamentalists that they read the Russian Formalists and Jakobson, etc. > :~ ) > >Kent > >* > >Shakespeare's Sonnet 71 >Classroom exercise from this morning: read Sonnet 71 and catalogue the >poetic techniques. > > >No longer mourn for me when I am dead >Than you shall hear the surly sullen bell >Give warning to the world that I am fled >>From this vile world, with vilest worms to dwell: >Nay, if you read this line, remember not >The hand that writ it, for I love you so >That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot >If thinking on me then should make you woe. >O, if, I say, you look upon this verse >When I, perhaps, compounded am with clay, >Do not so much as my poor name rehearse, >But let your love even with my life decay, >Lest the wise world should look into your moan >And mock you with me after I am gone. > >What makes the language "poetic" rather than "prosaic" (aside from >stock conventions like lineation, rhyme, and meter)? > >Synthesizing from the total responses, I come up with three main poetic >strategies: 1) grammatical, 2) structural, and 3) tropological. >Naturally there may be overlaps between two or more of these >categories. > >1. Grammatical effects might be divided further into grammar proper and >syntax. Syntactical deviation is in part a function of meter, but in >fact one might say that this is the level on which meter is a >significant poetic feature and not just a generic mechanical >contrivance. So, for example, the syntactic reversals and tmetic >interruptions of phrases ("No longer ... Than you shall hear," "I ... >would be forgot," "let your love ... decay" [the ellipses standing in >for the interrupting words]). Some of these are more interesting than >others; the reversals are almost as prevalent in everyday early modern >discourse as in literary usage, so it leads to somewhat of a >chicken-and-egg stituation. As for grammar proper, the two most striking >deformations in this poem occur at line 8 ("make you woe") and line 13 >("look into your moan"), with their conversions of a noun into an >adjective (or verb?) and of a verb into a noun, respectively. That both >the affected words are directly related to the central theme of >mourning, and that both are directly preceded by a form of the >second-person pronoun, serves to connect them to each other and thus >further reinforce the impact of the deviation. > >2. Structural features would, on the surface, include familiar "poetic" >devices like alliteration, assonance, and consonance, as well as the >aforementioned stock devices of lineation, meter, etc. These features >only achieve true signifying force, however, when their cumulative >weight makes itself felt as accessory to a complex of semantically >interrelated units. Arguably, one organizing linguistic system in this >poem is defined by the dyad mourn | world, the former being the thematic >nucleus of the sonnet, and the latter assuming importance by virtue of >repetition (it appears three times). Much of the paronomastic play in >the poem revolves around sounds (warning, worms, woe, moan, etc.) >generable from those two words. There are of course other organizing >schemes in the text, and it is important not to overload such aspects of >sonic surface with more motivated significance than they can bear. >Structural patterns at the level of argument are accommodated by the >stanzaic framework of the "English" or "Shakespearean" sonnet: thus, in >the first quatrain, the addressee is told to confine his mourning to the >length of time it takes for the death bell to announce the author's >departure; in the second quatrain, he is directed to read a line of the >poet's work without making the associative leap to the actual writing >hand; and in the third quatrain and concluding couplet, he is instructed >to read the poem without pronouncing the poet's name). There are several >ways of charting the progression here. One is to point out the dwindling >movement of physical specificity from quatrain to quatrain: from the >author's body being devoured by worms to his isolated hand to his bare >name. The overall sense is of the speaker's bodily presence fading as >the poem advances, until he is completely "gone" at the end of the last >line. > >3. Some of the most striking poetic effects in the poem arise from >simple (or not-so-simple) word choices with metaphoric implications. One >example is the "surly sullen" bell that gives "warning": the sense of >malice in these terms substantially colors the poem; the negativity >resounds in language like "vile," "decay," and "mock." On the other >hand, that the speaker goes to "dwell" with worms, and that his body is >"compounded" with the earth, both suggest a relatively positive >figurative transformation of the process of decomposition: one in which >the speaker continues to live on as in a house, and another in which his >mortal substance is converted and refined through alchemical means. > >All of these, I suppose, are types of "figures," in that they are ways >of figuring meaning without recourse to direct and/or literal >reference. > >In class we discussed one more way the poem does this, but I'm not sure >how to categorize it except under the general grammatical umbrella of >ambiguity. In the couplet, the phrase "Lest the ... world ... mock you >with me" can be read in at least three ways: 1) "lest the world mock you >at the same time that it mocks me"; 2) "lest the world mock you in the >same way that I mock you [in this poem?]"; or 3) "lest the world use >[the reminding image or thought of] me to mock you." (In their >overdetermined way, all these possibilities achieve the same end--the >continued presence of the speaker in some form, and thus a qualified >negation of "gone.") This isn't the only one of Shakespeare's sonnets >that ends on such a note of indeterminacy. And actually, one of my >students suggested what might be a fourth poetic strategy under which >this example would fit. He asked, in so many words, whether there >couldn't be such a thing as an inherently poetic overall meaning. My >first (silent) instinct was that this was an "unscientific" throwback to >symbolist theory, but I'm not so sure now. Maybe poems are nothing more >than expedient apparatuses for the expression of poetic meanings. Banal >tautology or legitimate insight? You be the judge. > >04:01 PM > from an email I sent to Kasey about this post: "that's a wonderful (and ambitious) reading for one day of class. I'd be careful, though, about putting so much emphasis on "woe" and "moan." "Moan" is common both as a noun and a verb, and while for some reason I can't get to the OED online today, Webster Unabridged lists "woe" as an adjective, citing Spenser's "he waxed wondrous woe," and the line can also be read as "make [for] you woe," which leaves woe a noun but obviously puts other strains in." Since then I did get access to the OED, which gives several examples of the two words used as in Sonnet 71. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From GrahamD Wed Mar 9 11:17:42 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:17:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] C. D. Wright essay Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA04@URANIUM.ripon.college> C. D. Wright fans will want to check out her feature now up at Poetry Daily. http://www.poems.com/essacdwr.htm "Every year the poem I most want to write, the poem that would in effect allow me to stop writing, changes shapes, changes directions. It refuses to come forward, to stand still while I move to meet it, embrace and coax it to sit on the porch with me and watch the lightning bugs steal behind the fog's heavy veil, listen for the drag of johnboats through the orchestra of locusts and frogs." An excerpt from Cooling Time: An American Poetry Vigil by C. D. Wright ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Wed Mar 9 07:56:11 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 06:56:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Anthology In-Reply-To: <001c01c52422$6880d9d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: On 3/8/05 3:04 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > We still have Forrest Gander. And Tree Swenson. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Wed Mar 9 15:57:51 2005 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:57:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets vs. U of Iowa Press References: <84.40e0fb98.2f5f7529@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d001c524ea$a9562730$e7089942@Helen> Blind submission is one thing but then the press asks for a list of publications - dah - doesn't that give some indication of who you are? ----- Original Message ----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poets vs. U of Iowa Press Interesting article. Very. I have to agree on two points: 1) Most competitions and contests in the poetry world and the non-poetry world state in their rules that no current or past employees or relatives of such are eligible. Why doesn't U of Iowa instate this rule? 2) Any so-called "blind" contest among poets and teachers may not be as blind as would be supposed since if a teacher has helped shape a mss or worked with a student on individual poems, that work will probably be recognized. The only way (I can think of) to stop that is to have entrants write in an enclosed environment (like SAT or CBEST), but even then, perhaps unique subject matter or style could be recognized. Difficult situation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Wed Mar 9 16:45:58 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:45:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery on slate Message-ID: http://slate.msn.com/id/2114565/ The Instruction Manual How to read John Ashbery. By Meghan O'Rourke Updated Wednesday, March 9, 2005, at 12:47 PM PT Ashbery: A radio transistor for language John Ashbery wrote his first poem when he was 8. It rhymed and made sense ("The tall haystacks are great sugar mounds/ These are the fairies' camping grounds") and the young writer?who had that touch of laziness that sometimes goes along with precocity?came to a realization: "I couldn't go on from this pinnacle." He went on, instead, to write poems that mostly didn't rhyme, and didn't make sense, either. His aim, as he later put it, was "to produce a poem that the critic cannot even talk about." It worked. Early on, a frustrated detractor called him "the Doris Day of Modernism." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Wed Mar 9 16:59:46 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:59:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery on slate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <422F2B82.15850.18CA779@localhost> > http://slate.msn.com/id/2114565/ > John Ashbery wrote his first poem when he was 8. It rhymed and made > sense ("The tall haystacks are great sugar mounds/ These are the > fairies' camping grounds") and the young writer???who had that touch > of laziness that sometimes goes along with precocity???came to a > realization: "I couldn't go on from this pinnacle." He went on, > instead, to write poems that mostly didn't rhyme, and didn't make > sense, either. His aim, as he later put it, was "to produce a poem > that the critic cannot even talk about." Talk about your pinnacles. M From JforJames Wed Mar 9 17:26:14 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:26:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again Message-ID: In a message dated 3/8/2005 9:03:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes: I don't have any problem with poets writing from all parts of their lives. I wonder about making kind of a career out of one part of your life - when you live, say, three times as long as that period of your life goes on for. But it is not even that. I think what I rankle at, a little, is the slight romanticization (sp?) and wistfulness Levine does at the end of the poem. I have nothing against people getting comfortable - for myself, I am always suspicious of comfort a lttle as lulling me to where I might miss something - but I don't much have to worry, having a knack for keeping myself on the edge one way or the other - so do you see what I mean? Fine, be comfortable, but don't get sentimental at the end of your comfortable life, about those who have not been... Kerry, I would argue that working class lives...esp. in old Detroit... are Levine's great subject. He's written about the Spanish Civil War, his family, and about many other things, of course, but he keeps going back to his first stomping grounds. Romanticizing and sentimentalizing are another matter. I happen to think that Levine is trying, through poetry, to give back some of what he thinks society owes to those lives, to give them their due, as it were, and their dignity. Now, of course, that's not Levine's duty nor even his right, per se, but it is the project he's chosen. The last time this topic came up the name of Bruce Springsteen was raised/invoked, because his project, in music, is similar. Is there romanticism and sentiment (as opposed to sentimentality) in the Boss' music/lyrics?...Sure there is. To some degree, short of writing pure reportage, I don't know how a poet can avoid some degree of romanticism. As soon a poet makes a choice based on word sound, rhythm, metaphor, word order/phrasings, ellision, allusion, anything that we associate with poetry's language, a certain degree of romanticism is going to seep in. Levine is certainly trying to for song (rough and gravelly as the voice may be). An interesting aside here: The realist poet, and I think Levine is going for that, in large part, while allowing himself certain liberties and flights toward song, can be accused of being the truly romantic poet. Wallace Stevens in his intro William Carlos Williams' first Selected claimed that Williams was a romantic poet. As lush, fuzzy and art-for-art's-sake as Stevens could be, he accused Williams of being the more romantic writer. I've always liked the Cocteau line that goes something like: a poet shouldn't use poetical language anymore that a gardener would scent his roses. Yes, but as poets, we can't help but cultivate roses, so to speak, by the very nature of language made poetry. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Wed Mar 9 17:36:55 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:36:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: > We still have Forrest Gander. >>And Tree Swenson. And Ron Silliman. (The greatest football name ever was the first coach of (I believe) the old AFL New York Jets: Red Hickey. And the greatest name ever of a mafia boss was Santo Traficante (Holy Trafficker) And the greatest name of a stock car racer is undoubtedly Dick Trickle. The most boring name ever in poetry is Kent Johnson. (I still say David Graham is a close second.) And the greatest name of a small town bar in the tiny Michigan UP town of Gay, and it's called (I am not making this up) The Gay Bar. I drove by it over Xmas break and there were three dozen snowmobiles parked outside. From JforJames Wed Mar 9 17:54:14 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:54:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine again Message-ID: <9d.5b3418f0.2f60d896@aol.com> In a message dated 3/9/2005 5:26:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: As lush, fuzzy and art-for-art's-sake as Stevens could be, he accused Williams of being the more romantic writer. As you can readily see, I'm not a fussy writer...and that should have been 'fussy' above. Although 'fuzzy' might apply to a few Stevens poems, like "Hartford in a Purple Light." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Wed Mar 9 17:59:33 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:59:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a05030914594054bb83@mail.gmail.com> I used to want to change my name or use a stage name when I was playing music. I never fronted a band, but I thought that "Jeff Newberry" was incredibly boring for a frontman. So, I wanted to christen myself "Big Jeff Lang," using my stature and my middle name. I could see it all, my name in lights, my name gracing the covers of blues magazines across the world. I also wanted to change my name when I started to take writing more seriously. I kicked around a lot of names, but the ones I remember were, J.E. Frey (get it? Jeffrey?) and Eric Winters (I don't even know what I was thinking) and my favorite, most pretentious name, Byron Keats. STUPID. I thought that to be a great writer, I needed to have a great name. What the heck did I know? I was 21 years old and convinced of my genius and talent. Boy, I was wrong (and on many levels!). I'm just a writer, I suppose, just a plain old writer. What's that Keats quote about the poet being the most boring of all creatures? These days, I'm plain old Jeff Newberry, and on my best days, I think that's enough. Jeff "satisfied but not complacent" Newberry On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:36:55 -0600, Kent Johnson wrote: > > We still have Forrest Gander. > > >>And Tree Swenson. > > And Ron Silliman. > > (The greatest football name ever was the first coach of (I believe) the > old AFL New York Jets: Red Hickey. > > And the greatest name ever of a mafia boss was Santo Traficante (Holy > Trafficker) > > And the greatest name of a stock car racer is undoubtedly Dick > Trickle. > > The most boring name ever in poetry is Kent Johnson. > > (I still say David Graham is a close second.) > > And the greatest name of a small town bar in the tiny Michigan UP town > of Gay, and it's called (I am not making this up) The Gay Bar. I drove > by it over Xmas break and there were three dozen snowmobiles parked > outside. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From kpaul Wed Mar 9 18:09:49 2005 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:09:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05030914594054bb83@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a05030914594054bb83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050309180915.D50593@kpaul.spinweb.net> just put another consonant in front of your name. people can forget a paul rather easily because there are so many of them. i'm one of a handful of kpaul's though. ;) -kpaul On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Jeff Newberry wrote: > I used to want to change my name or use a stage name when I was > playing music. I never fronted a band, but I thought that "Jeff > Newberry" was incredibly boring for a frontman. So, I wanted to > christen myself "Big Jeff Lang," using my stature and my middle name. > I could see it all, my name in lights, my name gracing the covers of > blues magazines across the world. > > I also wanted to change my name when I started to take writing more > seriously. I kicked around a lot of names, but the ones I remember > were, J.E. Frey (get it? Jeffrey?) and Eric Winters (I don't even > know what I was thinking) and my favorite, most pretentious name, > Byron Keats. STUPID. I thought that to be a great writer, I needed > to have a great name. What the heck did I know? I was 21 years old > and convinced of my genius and talent. > > Boy, I was wrong (and on many levels!). > > I'm just a writer, I suppose, just a plain old writer. What's that > Keats quote about the poet being the most boring of all creatures? > > These days, I'm plain old Jeff Newberry, and on my best days, I think > that's enough. > > Jeff "satisfied but not complacent" Newberry > > > On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:36:55 -0600, Kent Johnson > wrote: >>> We still have Forrest Gander. >> >>>> And Tree Swenson. >> >> And Ron Silliman. >> >> (The greatest football name ever was the first coach of (I believe) the >> old AFL New York Jets: Red Hickey. >> >> And the greatest name ever of a mafia boss was Santo Traficante (Holy >> Trafficker) >> >> And the greatest name of a stock car racer is undoubtedly Dick >> Trickle. >> >> The most boring name ever in poetry is Kent Johnson. >> >> (I still say David Graham is a close second.) >> >> And the greatest name of a small town bar in the tiny Michigan UP town >> of Gay, and it's called (I am not making this up) The Gay Bar. I drove >> by it over Xmas break and there were three dozen snowmobiles parked >> outside. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini Wed Mar 9 18:09:52 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:09:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <731bb17a05030914594054bb83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e201c524fd$19e74580$d5d63152@yourpk9x5fuc06> I like my name, _balla_ means dance, and that _ini_ makes it a diminutive, besides that we have Ballard, not too bad. Often people call me bellardini, _bella_ is beautiful, so nothing to complain, and finally Anny is not Ann or Anna, or Anita, or An..the-hell; anyhow among the less interesting names after K.J. and D.G. you can go ahead and list A.B., Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Newberry" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > I used to want to change my name or use a stage name when I was > playing music. I never fronted a band, but I thought that "Jeff > Newberry" was incredibly boring for a frontman. So, I wanted to > christen myself "Big Jeff Lang," using my stature and my middle name. > I could see it all, my name in lights, my name gracing the covers of > blues magazines across the world. > > I also wanted to change my name when I started to take writing more > seriously. I kicked around a lot of names, but the ones I remember > were, J.E. Frey (get it? Jeffrey?) and Eric Winters (I don't even > know what I was thinking) and my favorite, most pretentious name, > Byron Keats. STUPID. I thought that to be a great writer, I needed > to have a great name. What the heck did I know? I was 21 years old > and convinced of my genius and talent. > > Boy, I was wrong (and on many levels!). > > I'm just a writer, I suppose, just a plain old writer. What's that > Keats quote about the poet being the most boring of all creatures? > > These days, I'm plain old Jeff Newberry, and on my best days, I think > that's enough. > > Jeff "satisfied but not complacent" Newberry > > > On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:36:55 -0600, Kent Johnson > wrote: > > > We still have Forrest Gander. > > > > >>And Tree Swenson. > > > > And Ron Silliman. > > > > (The greatest football name ever was the first coach of (I believe) the > > old AFL New York Jets: Red Hickey. > > > > And the greatest name ever of a mafia boss was Santo Traficante (Holy > > Trafficker) > > > > And the greatest name of a stock car racer is undoubtedly Dick > > Trickle. > > > > The most boring name ever in poetry is Kent Johnson. > > > > (I still say David Graham is a close second.) > > > > And the greatest name of a small town bar in the tiny Michigan UP town > > of Gay, and it's called (I am not making this up) The Gay Bar. I drove > > by it over Xmas break and there were three dozen snowmobiles parked > > outside. > > > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz From JforJames Wed Mar 9 18:15:26 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:15:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <8e.22d22f88.2f60dd8e@aol.com> I stand corrected about the falling off of the poetry in the names of our contemporaries. There are the one-word poets: sparrow and Antler and Sapphire and Ai (sort of a primal scream). And then you have Star Black and Kelly Cherry and Joshua Clover and Molly Peacock, too. Kent, you and David Graham are a bit ahead of Dave Smith, don't you think? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Wed Mar 9 18:32:51 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:32:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <8e.22d22f88.2f60dd8e@aol.com> Message-ID: <002101c52500$501f1850$d5d63152@yourpk9x5fuc06> Star of the West, Raging Bull, Criminal Child, Going Blank, By-Pass Strass, Look-it-Up, BloodyDown, JingleYoung, KristleCradle, Bitmap chirp, Syrup Glory, Halle_Hall, and the animals Loving Bird, Sweetest Raven, Blueboy Voice, Gayly Yours, Zzbright, it's a _zoo_ out there! ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:15 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names I stand corrected about the falling off of the poetry in the names of our contemporaries. There are the one-word poets: sparrow and Antler and Sapphire and Ai (sort of a primal scream). And then you have Star Black and Kelly Cherry and Joshua Clover and Molly Peacock, too. Kent, you and David Graham are a bit ahead of Dave Smith, don't you think? Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Wed Mar 9 20:05:18 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:05:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: Message-ID: <004601c5250d$3ca0c960$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Nah, the greatest football name was linebacker Steve Stonebreaker. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 5:36 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names >> We still have Forrest Gander. > >>>And Tree Swenson. > > And Ron Silliman. > > (The greatest football name ever was the first coach of (I believe) the > old AFL New York Jets: Red Hickey. > > And the greatest name ever of a mafia boss was Santo Traficante (Holy > Trafficker) > > And the greatest name of a stock car racer is undoubtedly Dick > Trickle. > > The most boring name ever in poetry is Kent Johnson. > > (I still say David Graham is a close second.) > > And the greatest name of a small town bar in the tiny Michigan UP town > of Gay, and it's called (I am not making this up) The Gay Bar. I drove > by it over Xmas break and there were three dozen snowmobiles parked > outside. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Rsgwynn1 Wed Mar 9 20:16:43 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:16:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <140.3ff0e82d.2f60f9fb@cs.com> In a message dated 3/9/2005 7:05:49 PM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > Nah, the greatest football name was linebacker Steve Stonebreaker. Teddy Bruschi isn't bad. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Wed Mar 9 20:33:50 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:33:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <140.3ff0e82d.2f60f9fb@cs.com> Message-ID: <009001c52511$38a18b70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Who was the comedian back in the Sixties who had the routine about football players' names? How in the old days, when men were men, they had names like Bronco Nagurski...now they have names like Milton Plum? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In a message dated 3/9/2005 7:05:49 PM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Nah, the greatest football name was linebacker Steve Stonebreaker. Teddy Bruschi isn't bad. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Wed Mar 9 21:45:00 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:45:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 3/9/05 4:36 PM, Kent Johnson at Kent.Johnson at highland.edu wrote: > The most boring name ever in poetry is Kent Johnson. > > (I still say David Graham is a close second.) I posted this poem of mine once before, a few years ago. Here it is again! My True Blue Name --*I ain't good lookin', baby, but I'm someone's sweet angel child* Willie McTell Maybe I need a blues or jazz name instead of this phonebook moniker no one will remember next day in the bookstore, looking halfheartedly for that book, you know, the one with dogs in the title, and the author was Doug or Donald something. . . . I've always thought of myself as Lightnin', actually, and tried when young to interest my pals in a friendly nickname. No soap. Even the few who tried out Dave gradually migrated back to David, my coat-and-tie-, my report card name. But I wasn't asking the impossible-- even in my bluest fantasies I've never been Slim, didn't hanker to be Blind, wouldn't claim Muddy or Blues Boy on a bet. I've certainly never aspired to the regal, know better than to hope to be any Count, Duke, or King. My belly's everything but lead. But if Lightnin' won't fly, what about Long Gone, why not Buddy or Slick? I'd even settle for Dogwalker G. or Backwater Dave. I just want you to nod lazy agreement when I amble on stage in my shades and crumpled old hat, I want to wake up in the morning with a handful of gimme and a mouthful of much obliged, I want to linger like smoke in smoky air, my weathered voice telling Tuesday to Monday's bad dream--and through it all I'm Magic, I'm Big, I'm your own precious Sonny Boy. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From cstroffo Wed Mar 9 22:11:32 2005 From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 19:11:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <200503100250.j2A2o6MW183172@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> then there seems to be a trend for poets to name their kids the LAST names of poets Gander's kid is Brecht; Rodney Koeneke's kid is Auden. There's others I think but I'm exhausted... ---------- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Date: Wed, Mar 9, 2005, 3:15 PM I stand corrected about the falling off of the poetry in the names of our contemporaries. There are the one-word poets: sparrow and Antler and Sapphire and Ai (sort of a primal scream). And then you have Star Black and Kelly Cherry and Joshua Clover and Molly Peacock, too. Kent, you and David Graham are a bit ahead of Dave Smith, don't you think? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 Thu Mar 10 05:47:41 2005 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:47:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <1D96D492.0C098B4B.001A46F6@aol.com> Jack Ham? From Thom424 Thu Mar 10 05:57:17 2005 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:57:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <681A0F32.7815416B.001A46F6@aol.com> anyone care for Dinty Moore? thom tammar0 moorhead, mn From jkok Thu Mar 10 09:35:03 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:35:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: <200503100250.j2A2o6MW183172@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200503100250.j2A2o6MW183172@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: the usual passell of Dylans in the schoolyard... how do you spell passell or is it not a recognized word - just something I picked up from my southern-influenced childhood? Pronounced pah-sell stress on second syllable? On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > then there seems to be a trend for poets to name their kids the LAST names > of poets > Gander's kid is Brecht; Rodney Koeneke's kid is Auden. There's others I > think but I'm exhausted... > > ---------- > From: JforJames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > Date: Wed, Mar 9, 2005, 3:15 PM > > > I stand corrected about the falling off of the poetry > in the names of our contemporaries. There are the > one-word poets: sparrow and Antler and Sapphire > and Ai (sort of a primal scream). > And then you have Star Black and Kelly Cherry > and Joshua Clover and Molly Peacock, too. > > Kent, you and David Graham are a bit ahead of Dave Smith, > don't you think? > > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cstroffo Thu Mar 10 10:06:04 2005 From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:06:04 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <200503101444.j2AEibMW416494@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> ah, but they're all named after THOMAS of course (ha ha....) ---------- >From: "Kerry O'Keefe" >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names >Date: Thu, Mar 10, 2005, 6:35 AM > > the usual passell of Dylans in the schoolyard... > > how do you spell passell or is it not a recognized word - just something I > picked up from my southern-influenced childhood? > > Pronounced pah-sell stress on second syllable? > > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Chris > Stroffolino wrote: > >> then there seems to be a trend for poets to name their kids the LAST names >> of poets >> Gander's kid is Brecht; Rodney Koeneke's kid is Auden. There's others I >> think but I'm exhausted... >> >> ---------- >> From: JforJames at aol.com >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names >> Date: Wed, Mar 9, 2005, 3:15 PM >> >> >> I stand corrected about the falling off of the poetry >> in the names of our contemporaries. There are the >> one-word poets: sparrow and Antler and Sapphire >> and Ai (sort of a primal scream). >> And then you have Star Black and Kelly Cherry >> and Joshua Clover and Molly Peacock, too. >> >> Kent, you and David Graham are a bit ahead of Dave Smith, >> don't you think? >> >> Finnegan >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From GrahamD Thu Mar 10 10:28:24 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:28:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA0C@URANIUM.ripon.college> My old friend Mary Fell has one of the best poetic names, I've always thought. Declarative, intransitive, economical, complete. Upon meeting her, Robert Francis asked "But where did Mary fall?" ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Thu Mar 10 10:33:50 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:33:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: David Graham! That's a fun poem! Chin up! Names are mysterious. Like martyrs. And just as the smallest, most overlooked words in a poem are the ones that truly count, the most banal, boring names shall have their recompense beyond this illusory plane. I am sure of it. Kent Johnson From Kent.Johnson Thu Mar 10 10:40:17 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:40:17 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] How to Read John Ashbery Message-ID: by Megan O'Rourke, at Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2114565/ From tad Thu Mar 10 10:51:13 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:51:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA0C@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <008801c52588$ff6a3e60$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Poetic namesOr, as Hart Crane once told Witter Bynner, "Witter Bynner, you're going to have a bitter winter." Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham, David To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:28 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names My old friend Mary Fell has one of the best poetic names, I've always thought. Declarative, intransitive, economical, complete. Upon meeting her, Robert Francis asked "But where did Mary fall?" ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Thu Mar 10 10:58:00 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:58:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] How to Read John Ashbery References: Message-ID: <009d01c52589$f291dd00$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I think O'Rourke does an excellent job here. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:40 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] How to Read John Ashbery > by Megan O'Rourke, at Slate: > > http://www.slate.com/id/2114565/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jkok Thu Mar 10 12:03:49 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:03:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: <200503101444.j2AEibMW416494@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200503101444.j2AEibMW416494@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: In fact, in this wild town (Northampton, MA) even the girls get named Dylan. Which, I think, is rather a nice name for a girl... From hruggier Thu Mar 10 12:13:36 2005 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:13:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <140.3ff0e82d.2f60f9fb@cs.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c52594$82c1e5a0$d50c9942@Helen> and don't forget Larry Zonka! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In a message dated 3/9/2005 7:05:49 PM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Nah, the greatest football name was linebacker Steve Stonebreaker. Teddy Bruschi isn't bad. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Thu Mar 10 13:10:33 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:10:33 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: >and don't forget Larry Zonka! That would be Csonka, Helen. From gmguddi Thu Mar 10 13:37:15 2005 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:37:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050310123100.02602570@mail.ilstu.edu> Wang Ping (b. 1957) Terence Winch (b. 1945) Mary Ruefle (pronounced rueful) (b. 1951) and -- TAH DAH -- Peter Johnson (b. 1951) Sometimes a student will pronounce Kenneth Koch's last name "Cock," which always gets a rise out of me (ahem). From marcus Thu Mar 10 13:50:32 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:50:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: <00aa01c52594$82c1e5a0$d50c9942@Helen> Message-ID: <423050A8.6111.1AC319@localhost> That's Czonka. M On 10 Mar 2005 at 12:13, Helen Ruggieri wrote: > > and don't forget Larry Zonka! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:16 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > > In a message dated 3/9/2005 7:05:49 PM Central Standard Time, > tad at opus40.org writes: > Nah, the greatest football name was linebacker Steve Stonebreaker. > > Teddy Bruschi isn't bad. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes Thu Mar 10 13:55:59 2005 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:55:59 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <22709213.1110480959840.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Then there's Selma Hijack, which is my take on her name. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: Helen Ruggieri Sent: Mar 10, 2005 10:13 AM To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names and don't forget Larry Zonka! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In a message dated 3/9/2005 7:05:49 PM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Nah, the greatest football name was linebacker Steve Stonebreaker. Teddy Bruschi isn't bad. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From antrobin Thu Mar 10 14:08:01 2005 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:08:01 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050310123100.02602570@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <028401c525a4$82a14b00$fb351c40@Emily> Peter Johnson is my favorite name. My very first poetry teacher always said Kenneth Cock. TR -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Gabriel Gudding Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:37 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Wang Ping (b. 1957) Terence Winch (b. 1945) Mary Ruefle (pronounced rueful) (b. 1951) and -- TAH DAH -- Peter Johnson (b. 1951) Sometimes a student will pronounce Kenneth Koch's last name "Cock," which always gets a rise out of me (ahem). _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Kent.Johnson Thu Mar 10 14:08:37 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:08:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: I'd said: >>That's Csonka, Helen. Marcus then said: >That's Czonka. SHIT! From marcus Thu Mar 10 14:10:55 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:10:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: <028401c525a4$82a14b00$fb351c40@Emily> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050310123100.02602570@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <4230556F.4320.2D6EF1@localhost> What about Thom Gunn? M On 10 Mar 2005 at 11:08, Anthony Robinson wrote: > Peter Johnson is my favorite name. > > My very first poetry teacher always said Kenneth Cock. > > TR > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Gabriel > Gudding Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:37 AM To: NewPoetry: > Contemporary Poetry News &Views; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > > Wang Ping (b. 1957) > > Terence Winch (b. 1945) > > Mary Ruefle (pronounced rueful) (b. 1951) > > and -- TAH DAH -- Peter Johnson (b. 1951) > > > Sometimes a student will pronounce Kenneth Koch's last name "Cock," > which always gets a rise out of me (ahem). > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad Thu Mar 10 14:18:18 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:18:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <22709213.1110480959840.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <034e01c525a5$ecc237f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> My choice for best name by a show biz personality at the moment is Cedric the Entertainer. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > Then there's Selma Hijack, which is my take on her name. > > - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Helen Ruggieri > Sent: Mar 10, 2005 10:13 AM > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > > and don't forget Larry Zonka! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:16 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > > > In a message dated 3/9/2005 7:05:49 PM Central Standard Time, > tad at opus40.org writes: > > Nah, the greatest football name was linebacker Steve Stonebreaker. > > Teddy Bruschi isn't bad. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Kent.Johnson Thu Mar 10 14:24:23 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:24:23 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: OK, dig this: One of the great Pound scholars was... ACHILLES FANG He taught at Harvard for many years and died some years ago. His will states that his multi-volume study of The Cantos is not to be published until (can't remember date). His massive and priceless library was donated to the national library in China. The Chinese sent a plane over to Boston to take it all back. But they didn't get his most personal books, the ones with all the marginalia and scattered correspondence stuffed inside. Forrest Gander and I visited his widow a year and a half ago in Cambridge, and we spent an hour or so going through first editions of Pound, Eliot, WCW, most books with letters inside, one from Olson, a few from Corman. Alas, none from his prolific correspondence from Pound, which went with off on the plane, apparently. We drank tea and chatted pleasantly with his brilliant wife, a retired German prof from Harvard (I am sorry, not recalling name), admired the priceless T'ang era calligraphy on walls, waited, waited for her to be so charmed by us she would say, here why don't you nice boys take this first edition of The Waste Land along home with you... So beat that one: Achilles Fang. Kent From jvcervantes Thu Mar 10 14:26:03 2005 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:26:03 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <19847829.1110482763608.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hadn't been following this too closely. Did anyone mention Padriac Colum? Who/which I always imagined as an inanimate object made of marble. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: The Old Mole Sent: Mar 10, 2005 12:18 PM To: James Cervantes , "NewPoetry:Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names My choice for best name by a show biz personality at the moment is Cedric the Entertainer. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > Then there's Selma Hijack, which is my take on her name. > > - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Helen Ruggieri > Sent: Mar 10, 2005 10:13 AM > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > > and don't forget Larry Zonka! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:16 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > > > In a message dated 3/9/2005 7:05:49 PM Central Standard Time, > tad at opus40.org writes: > > Nah, the greatest football name was linebacker Steve Stonebreaker. > > Teddy Bruschi isn't bad. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From lattaj Thu Mar 10 14:42:44 2005 From: lattaj (John Latta) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:42:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Duff Bigger, whatever happen'd to? And Eileen Silver-Lillywhite. From Kent.Johnson Thu Mar 10 14:47:32 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:47:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: >Sometimes a student will pronounce Kenneth Koch's last name "Cock," which always gets a rise out of me (ahem). Oh no! You mean it's NOT pronounced that way? From cstroffo Thu Mar 10 15:11:10 2005 From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:11:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <200503101949.j2AJnhMW457014@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Okay, a name that sounds like a headline Patricia Spears Jones ---------- >From: "Kent Johnson" >To: >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names >Date: Thu, Mar 10, 2005, 11:47 AM > >>Sometimes a student will pronounce Kenneth Koch's last name "Cock," > which > always gets a rise out of me (ahem). > > Oh no! You mean it's NOT pronounced that way? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi Thu Mar 10 14:55:34 2005 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:55:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: <200503101949.j2AJnhMW457014@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200503101949.j2AJnhMW457014@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050310135109.0291ba00@mail.ilstu.edu> Else Baroness von Freytag-Loringhoven aka "The Baroness" an example of her work (this from THE LITTLE REVIEW): "his nostrils maketh me sad!" From halvard Thu Mar 10 15:10:48 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:10:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ron Silliman, "Albany" Message-ID: Albany for Cliff Silliman If the function of writing is to ?express the world.? My father withheld child support, forcing my mother to live with her parents, my brother and I to be raised together in a small room. Grandfather called them niggers. I can?t afford an automobile. Far across the calm bay stood a complex of long yellow buildings, a prison. A line is the distance between. They circled the seafood restaurant, singing ?We shall not be moved.? My turn to cook. It was hard to adjust my sleeping to those hours when the sun was up. The event was nothing like their report of it. How concerned was I over her failure to have orgasms? Mondale?s speech was drowned by jeers. Ye wretched. She introduces herself as a rape survivor. Yet his best friend was Hispanic. I decided not to escape to Canada. Revenue enhancement. Competition and spectacle, kinds of drugs. If it demonstrates form some people won?t read it. Television unifies conversation. Died in action. If a man is a player, he will have no job. Becoming prepared to live with less space. Live ammunition. Secondary boycott. My crime is parole violation. Now that the piecards have control. Rubin feared McClure would read Ghost Tantras at the teach-in. This form is the study group. The sparts are impeccable, though filled with deceit. A benefit reading. He seduced me. AFT, local 1352. Enslavement is permitted as punishment for crime. Her husband broke both of her eardrums. I used my grant to fix my teeth. They speak in Farsi at the corner store. YPSL. The national question. I look forward to old age with some excitement. 42 years for Fibreboard Products. Food is a weapon. Yet the sight of people making love is deeply moving. Music is essential. The cops wear shields that serve as masks. Her lungs heavy with asbestos. Two weeks too old to collect orphan?s benefits. A woman on the train asks Angela Davis for an autograph. You get read your Miranda. As if a correct line would somehow solve the future. They murdered his parents just to make a point. It ?s not easy if your audience doesn?t identify as readers. Mastectomies are done by men. Out pets like at whim. Net income is down 13%. Those distant sirens down in the valley signal great hinges in the lives of strangers. A phone tree. The landlord?s control of terror is implicit. Not just a party but a culture. Copayment. He held the Magnum with both hands and ordered me to stop. The garden is a luxury (a civilization of snail and spider). They call their clubs batons. They call their committees clubs. Her friendships with women are different. Talking so much is oppressive. Outplacement. A shadowy locked facility using drugs and double-ceiling (a rest home). That was the Sunday Henry?s father murdered his wife on the front porch. If it demonstrates form they can?t read it. If it demonstrates mercy they have something worse in mind. Twice, carelessness has led to abortion. To own a basement. Nor is the sky any less constructed. The design of a department store is intended to leave you fragmented, off-balance. A lit drop. They photograph Habermas to hide the hairlip. The verb to be admits the assertion. The body is a prison, a garden. In kind. Client populations (cross the tundra). Off the books. The whole neighborhood is empty in the daytime. Children form lines at the end of each recess. Eminent domain. Rotating chair. The history of Poland in 90 seconds. Flaming pintos. There is no such place as the economy, the self. That bird demonstrates the sky. Our home, we were told, had been broken, but who were these people we lived with? Clubbed in the stomach, she miscarried. There were bayonets on campus, cows in India, people shoplifting books. I just want to make it to lunch time. Uncritical of nationalist movements in the Third World. Letting the dishes sit for a week. Macho culture of convicts. With a shotgun and ?in defense? the officer shot him in the face. Here, for a moment, we are joined. The want-ads lie strewn on the table. --Ron Silliman fr. Ironwood #20, Fall 1982, Vol. 10, No. 2 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Thu Mar 10 15:21:46 2005 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:21:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: Message-ID: <003401c525ae$c8fe1880$f40d9942@Helen> gOD BLESS YOU. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:08 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > > I'd said: > >>>That's Csonka, Helen. > > Marcus then said: > >>That's Czonka. > > SHIT! > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Rsgwynn1 Thu Mar 10 15:42:24 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:42:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <1a3.2f18e25a.2f620b30@cs.com> In a message dated 3/10/2005 11:20:43 AM Central Standard Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: > and don't forget Larry Zonka! > I've always liked Floyd Skloot. A fast-sounding poet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin Thu Mar 10 16:01:29 2005 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:01:29 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: <1a3.2f18e25a.2f620b30@cs.com> Message-ID: <02a601c525b4$5d01fec0$fb351c40@Emily> Fast-sounding only. I think he has Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. He's a slow poet with a fast name. __ I've always liked Floyd Skloot. A fast-sounding poet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 Thu Mar 10 16:25:57 2005 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:25:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: <3CF9F56E.0B9430F7.001A46F6@aol.com> over the years, my favorite student names: Pollyanna Slaughthaug ("You can call me Polly," she said on the first day of class) Harry Pitts (honest! what were his parents thinking/drinking/smoking that day?) thom tammaro (sometimes pronounced "tomorrow") moorhead, mn From anny.ballardini Thu Mar 10 16:46:49 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:46:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <3CF9F56E.0B9430F7.001A46F6@aol.com> Message-ID: <003d01c525ba$aa5db5a0$74aa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> I have a very bad reputation at school with names, I vaguely remember the initial letter, so a Giovanna can become Giulia, Jennifer, Giorgia, Gelsomina, Jeanie, John (?) and I usually fully accept only a couple of students' names _the ones that were able to reach me somehow_ and mix up all the others especially if they have some exotic names, so Ilaria becomes Naomi or Noemi, Sabrina or Alessia, 2 colleagues of mine: Maria Pompeia, Maria Assunta (I think she has a couple more, but ... I forgot them) I've always called my Spanish colleague Illa, to discover that her name is Imma I have an Ottilia! then there are the German names: Hildegard, Hildegrund, Brunhilde, Edeltraud, Ulrike, & another tasty one that I cannot remember now, plenty of Alexander's but also two Axel's, I had Fritz and Franz sitting one close to the other, so it was Franz and Fritz or Fritz and Franz for a long time, surnames are beyond my capacity I can rely only on my visual memory. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ""NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views"" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > over the years, my favorite student names: > > Pollyanna Slaughthaug ("You can call me Polly," she said on the first day of class) > > Harry Pitts (honest! what were his parents thinking/drinking/smoking that day?) > > > thom tammaro (sometimes pronounced "tomorrow") > moorhead, mn > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jeff.newberry Thu Mar 10 16:48:54 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:48:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: <003d01c525ba$aa5db5a0$74aa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> References: <3CF9F56E.0B9430F7.001A46F6@aol.com> <003d01c525ba$aa5db5a0$74aa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <731bb17a05031013485318fba9@mail.gmail.com> I have a young lady in my English 2 course this semester whose name is Maleria. It's pronounced "Malory." Imagine my embarrassment the very first day of the class this semester . . . Jeff N. -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From MillB Thu Mar 10 16:48:54 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:48:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic Student Names Message-ID: <77.41035a1c.2f621ac6@aol.com> When i was teaching ESL, I had a student named Duoc Phuc Yu (not sure of the spelling), when I tried to pronounce it (what I thought was properly) the student corrected me and said, "No, it's Duck. Fuck. You." He had tad bit more of a nasal accent tone than I am able to portray here (sort of duke fuk eww), but, well, you get the idea. In that same class, I also had a student whose name was Deing Heip (again, not sure of the spelling). He, too, translated it (liberally) as "Dung Heap." Not to be outdone, my own name is a number (in French)! Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Thu Mar 10 16:50:00 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:50:00 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <22709213.1110480959840.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <034e01c525a5$ecc237f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <008301c525bb$1c46a0f0$329f9951@Robin> > My choice for best name by a show biz personality at the moment is Cedric > the Entertainer. > > Tad Richards In England, there's a performance poet called Attila the Stockbroker. Robin From debra Thu Mar 10 17:04:04 2005 From: debra (Debra Dicembre) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:04:04 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <22709213.1110480959840.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <034e01c525a5$ecc237f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <003c01c525bd$1479cb20$0301010a@galaxy> Has anyone heard the work of Austalian performing poet, Austen Tayshus? Spike Milligan to Peter O'Toole. "Peter, are you aware that your name is a double phallus?" cheers DD ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "James Cervantes" ; "NewPoetry:Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 6:18 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > My choice for best name by a show biz personality at the moment is Cedric > the Entertainer. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Cervantes" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 1:55 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > > > > Then there's Selma Hijack, which is my take on her name. > > > > - Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Helen Ruggieri > > Sent: Mar 10, 2005 10:13 AM > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > > Views" > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > > > > and don't forget Larry Zonka! > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > > > > > > In a message dated 3/9/2005 7:05:49 PM Central Standard Time, > > tad at opus40.org writes: > > > > Nah, the greatest football name was linebacker Steve Stonebreaker. > > > > Teddy Bruschi isn't bad. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jeff.newberry Thu Mar 10 17:27:41 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:27:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic Student Names In-Reply-To: <77.41035a1c.2f621ac6@aol.com> References: <77.41035a1c.2f621ac6@aol.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a050310142712ccb75a@mail.gmail.com> When I was a college sophomore, working for the literary magazine, we had a photo editor named Latrina. Jeff N. On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:48:54 EST, MillB at aol.com wrote: > > When i was teaching ESL, I had a student named Duoc Phuc Yu (not sure of the > spelling), when I tried to pronounce it (what I thought was properly) the > student corrected me and said, "No, it's Duck. Fuck. You." He had tad bit > more of a nasal accent tone than I am able to portray here (sort of duke fuk > eww), but, well, you get the idea. > > In that same class, I also had a student whose name was Deing Heip (again, > not sure of the spelling). He, too, translated it (liberally) as "Dung > Heap." > > Not to be outdone, my own name is a number (in French)! > > Mill > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From Rsgwynn1 Thu Mar 10 18:08:03 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:08:03 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic Student Names Message-ID: <1f3.5d393c3.2f622d53@cs.com> There was a woman in my grad school workshop named Rose Melody. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From debra Thu Mar 10 18:13:32 2005 From: debra (Debra Dicembre) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:13:32 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic Student Names References: <1f3.5d393c3.2f622d53@cs.com> Message-ID: <00e801c525c6$c907a180$0301010a@galaxy> a student naming her child....Millie Jenna Thiele (surname pron. Tee-la) ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic Student Names There was a woman in my grad school workshop named Rose Melody. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Thu Mar 10 18:28:14 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:28:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <3CF9F56E.0B9430F7.001A46F6@aol.com> Message-ID: <03a601c525c8$d75a6680$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I had one named Dick Hertz. Not kidding. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ""NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views"" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > over the years, my favorite student names: > > Pollyanna Slaughthaug ("You can call me Polly," she said on the first day > of class) > > Harry Pitts (honest! what were his parents thinking/drinking/smoking that > day?) > > > thom tammaro (sometimes pronounced "tomorrow") > moorhead, mn > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From kpaul Thu Mar 10 19:29:13 2005 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:29:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050310192846.X90331@kpaul.spinweb.net> in my early days i wandered around, wondering why no one had heard of rim-bow before. ;) -kpaul On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, Kent Johnson wrote: >> Sometimes a student will pronounce Kenneth Koch's last name "Cock," > which > always gets a rise out of me (ahem). > > Oh no! You mean it's NOT pronounced that way? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Thom424 Thu Mar 10 19:45:39 2005 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:45:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] poetic student names Message-ID: <1ab.3401f118.2f624433@aol.com> all these names reminded me of another favorite student's name: justin case thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo Thu Mar 10 20:04:09 2005 From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:04:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic Student Names References: <1f3.5d393c3.2f622d53@cs.com> Message-ID: <016201c525d6$3b1be4c0$3a95c044@MULDER> I had a student named Mighty Phan, and knew of another with the first name of RaggedyAnn. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic Student Names There was a woman in my grad school workshop named Rose Melody. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov Thu Mar 10 20:07:26 2005 From: shkodrov (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:07:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050311010726.22241.qmail@web54603.mail.yahoo.com> Speaking of Dick's... Dick and Bush are my mostEST favoriteST couple... The Old Mole wrote: I had one named Dick Hertz. Not kidding. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ""NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views"" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > over the years, my favorite student names: > > Pollyanna Slaughthaug ("You can call me Polly," she said on the first day > of class) > > Harry Pitts (honest! what were his parents thinking/drinking/smoking that > day?) > > > thom tammaro (sometimes pronounced "tomorrow") > moorhead, mn > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From debra Thu Mar 10 20:15:36 2005 From: debra (Debra Dicembre) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:15:36 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names References: <20050311010726.22241.qmail@web54603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003201c525d7$d6b04600$0301010a@galaxy> There is a rock band in Australia called 'Barbara's Bush'. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rosie Shkodrov To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Speaking of Dick's... Dick and Bush are my mostEST favoriteST couple... The Old Mole wrote: I had one named Dick Hertz. Not kidding. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ""NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views"" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetic names > over the years, my favorite student names: > > Pollyanna Slaughthaug ("You can call me Polly," she said on the first day > of class) > > Harry Pitts (honest! what were his parents thinking/drinking/smoking that > day?) > > > thom tammaro (sometimes pronounced "tomorrow") > moorhead, mn > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Thu Mar 10 21:59:02 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:59:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz Message-ID: <040301c525e6$4a581700$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Who are the most significant poets to have used jazz and jazz musicians as major themes in their work? I'm thinking poets like Harper, Komunyaaka, Matthews, Collins. I'm not really looking to get into an argument about whether these guys are all mediocrities compared to the folks who write rebuses, though I have no doubt that will happen. Harper was the first contemporary poet I remember to make jazz a central theme. But am I wrong here? Were there others before him. I know, significant poems like "The Day Lady Died" -- but jazz and people who create jazz as a real central theme? Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB Thu Mar 10 22:35:23 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:35:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz Message-ID: <8d.22a16eed.2f626bfb@aol.com> Tad, You probably know this, but there are two anthologies by Sascha Feinstein and Yusef Komunyakaa: The Second Set: The Jazz Poetry Anthology and The Jazz Poetry Anthology. As well as A Bibliographical Guide to Jazz Poetry. Sascha Feinstein also edits Brilliant Corners: A Journal of Jazz & Literature... One of my favorite jazz invokers is Lynda Hull. Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Fri Mar 11 00:04:14 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:04:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic names Message-ID: In a message dated 3/10/2005 3:22:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: > > > >I'd said: > > > >>>That's Csonka, Helen. > > > >Marcus then said: > > > >>That's Czonka. > > > >SHIT! > Xonka was fullback, lining up with Os....back to Xmen and linebackers, there was Junior Say-yow. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 11 06:22:33 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:22:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] From our great Al Aronowitz! Message-ID: <001d01c5262c$9f8afdf0$3aad3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> DEAR FRIENDS AND READERS, This is to let you know that the new issue of THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST, COLUMN 115, dated March 1, 2005 is now on the web. To take a look, click on http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj SECTION ONE: http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column115.html LEAN ON ME by Brett Aronowitz. My daughter visits me while I undergo chemotherapy at Elizabeth's Trinitas Hospital. SECTION TWO: http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column115a.html CHRISTIAN EVANGELS BELIEVE IN LOONY FAIRY TALES THAT THREATEN & ENDANGER ALL OF US. An email from Peter Coyote gives us a piece by Bill Moyers that describes how Christian fundamentalist beliefs are just as insane as those of Moslem fundamentalists. And they all believe in a god that wants to wipe out the human race. SECTION THREE:: http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column115b.html MEETING LUCIEN CARR. Kerouac scholar Gerry Nicosia describes his meeting with the Beat Generation original in 1977. SECTION FOUR: THE LITERARY LINKS SECTION: Links to THE ALLEN GINSBERG ORGANIZATION, THE RITA DOVE website, THE PETER COYOTE website; THE MCCLURE-MANZAREK website; the AMERICAN LEGENDS website; Anny Ballardini's POETS CORNER and we now add altweeklies.com, which is a comprehensive compilation of stories from various alternative newspapers from around the country! SECTION FIVE: THE MOVIE SECTION: THE RITZ FILMBILL. Synopses of foreign, independent and Hollywood movies. SECTION SIX: THE MUSIC SECTION, features the usual links to SONGSCENTRAL, PURR, POWER OF POP, all contemporary music e-zines; THE CELEBRITY CAF?, all about celebrities; the BABUKISHAN DAS BAUL website; and EAR CANDY. SECTION SEVEN: THE ADVERTISING SECTION, offers 13 pages of ads from Earwraps; Cleveland International Records; Richard X. Heyman; Christopher Pick; J. Crow's Milled Cider; An Advertisement for Myself; Tommy Womack, Compliments of a Friend; Zoe Artemis invites you to literary retreat in Greece; Richard Dettrey, who will help you with your shopping; BABY ON THE WATER by Tsaurah Litzky; BOB DYLAN AND THE BEATLES; and Arrogant Prick T-shirts. Would you, too, like to help keep THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST on the Internet? For a nominal contribution, you can have your own advertising page in the Advertising Section of THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST. Simply send us an email to find out about particulars. There are links to friendly sites and we also feature MARK PUCCI'S ONLINE REVIEWS, originally edited by John Williams. Hope you read and enjoy. Best, Al Aronowitz Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Fri Mar 11 08:47:41 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:47:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz In-Reply-To: <8d.22a16eed.2f626bfb@aol.com> References: <8d.22a16eed.2f626bfb@aol.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a05031105477d97e2e7@mail.gmail.com> Tad, I'm thinking of Langston Hughes, though I know that he adopted blues structures for his work, as well. Jeff Newberry The Old Mole queried: -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From tad Fri Mar 11 08:56:47 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:56:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <8d.22a16eed.2f626bfb@aol.com> <731bb17a05031105477d97e2e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001601c52642$2d26ed30$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Hughes did some great work, and so did Robert Hayden. I'll be including both of them in this piece, which will go from the 20s to the present. But I'm trying to get a handle on the rise of poets who you'd call "jazz poets" because they really made jazz a central theme in their oeuvre. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Newberry" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz > Tad, > > I'm thinking of Langston Hughes, though I know that he adopted blues > structures for his work, as well. > > Jeff Newberry > > The Old Mole queried: > > musicians as major themes in their work?> > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From halvard Fri Mar 11 09:15:48 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:15:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A: From deep short, Nick Piombino turns a sharp grounder into a triple play Message-ID: Q&A: From deep short, Nick Piombino turns a sharp grounder into a triple play Tom Becket: I get the feeling that your writing is less and less preoccupied with theory, and has become more meditative, more preoccupied with time and timelessness--as is perhaps best evinced in your passion for aphorisms. Is that a fair characterization? NP: Yes, it?s true. I?ve always been fascinated by the fact that the two subjects I am most interested in, poetry and psychoanalysis, have so much to say about and do with time and duration. Poetry?s outstanding literary feature is, or at least was, its ability to withstand the test of time. Psychoanalysis, as a project between two people, can continue for decades. Let?s compare these two forms of expression to advertising, for example, to propose a continuum of values in long range relationships. Very few endeavors in contemporary life can offer similar hopes for continuity over time. In a culture where the ultimate image of success is a smash hit or a cultural splash, along with ?tons? of publicity, poetry and psychoanalysis propose to go deeper. But it?s also true that when I was younger I was more astonished or dismayed by such comparisons than I am now. My very early interests - as far back as high school- in both areas- got me thinking about time. I remember that, like so many children, when I was a pre-teen I became preoccupied with Egyptian archeology; with others it might be prehistoric time, like the dinosaurs. This has to do with the budding awareness in children of the fact that the world has long existed before they did, and that people die. My turn to psychoanalysis had partly to do with a revolt against my childhood immersion in Catholicism. I was fortunate to find out about Freud very soon after I discovered sex; I needed something like this because I was so shocked at the rigidity and ignorance about sex encouraged by the Catholic doctrine. I had even considered becoming a priest when I grew up! I appreciated poetry and psychoanalysis because I needed ways to think seriously about life that were not so dogmatic, and so circumscribed by local custom and belief, yet still offered an experience of depth and intensity similar to the soaring, lyrical feelings I had experienced in my religious practices. For a time, during my alter boy days, I had even invented some private forms of devotion. My father was an army officer so my family was constantly in movement from place to place. I had to spend a lot of time alone, so I became a voracious reader. As a person, my mother was on the hysterical side and my father was rather remote and silent so I needed reading for companionship, and as a form of rational communication. Also, due to the traveling and constant change of people in my life, a kind of detachment evolved that led me to thinking a lot about life and people, stepping back and trying to generalize and get a grip. This also led to searching for relationships, ideas, processes that are flexible and last. I wanted to understand many things I found frustrating and contradictory about myself and others; in particular I was interested in the dynamics and causes of superficiality and hypocrisy. For one thing, my mother was Jewish (she converted but never practiced Catholicism) and my father was a non-practicing Catholic. This had the effect on me of seeing through the arbitrary and superficial side of culture. We lived in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn when I was a teenager and I noticed a lot of anti- Semitism among my friends. One day I simply announced that I was partly Jewish and that was the end of a lot of the friendships. This didn?t bother me much, or for long, because of my tendency to be more interested in exploring authentic connections between people, than in compliance in relationships for its own sake. Theory offers a way of thinking beyond ones inherited or localized (in time and space) assumptions. Yet it can also show how to hold onto and value worthwhile convictions in the face of resistance from outside and within. My initial knowledge of psychoanalysis was obtained from reading the theory. Early psychoanalytic theory is breathtakingly poetic, so finding out about this at the same time I was discovering poetry and fiction was enthralling. The early practitioners of psychoanalysis remind me of the pre-Socratic philosophers. They were on virgin ground, and they knew it. There?s still a great deal of very rich material to be mined there because, like theory in poetry, the theoretical development of psychoanalysis is not linear as it is in the hard sciences where once a new paradigm is launched most of the initial guiding principles become outmoded. Conceptual work in the arts and in psychoanalysis does not evolve in this manner. This sort of theorizing is not situated primarily in the physical realm, but is experiential, and the rich, complex and over determined emotional life of people functions and changes very differently over time from the physical realm. Like a good, conforming, obedient, doctor and scientist, Freud tried to base psychoanalysis in the physical realm at first, using neurology and biology as the foundation. This didn?t work because, while there is a very crucial relationship between physical reality and the inner life of human beings, our internal life functions very differently from the physical world, even from social and cultural worlds. Maybe this is an aspect of where timelessness comes in. The constant attempt on the part of theorists to understand human psychological functioning on a physical or social analogy is doomed to fail because much of the human spirit remains internal, preserved by remaining partly unsocialized and unsocializable, and so slow to change, that, for the most part, it appears to be unchanging and unchangeable. One of Freud?s key insights is that culture evolves from the sublimation of instincts. And instincts are essentially inherent, like gravity. A key revelation that emerges from the long term practice of psychoanalysis is how long it takes, what intense determination and commitment is involved, for people to change. And that actual, or lasting transformation, results mostly from insight. I never had much use for political models of social change, even when I was younger and really had no basis for realizing or comprehending something like this. It was a guess then, but four decades of practicing psychotherapy and psychoanalysis has taught me that people change very slowly even when they desperately need and desire change. Transformations in political models, governmental, religious or educational models will not change the world as much as people hope they will, or imagine they have. Human manipulativeness, misunderstanding, confusion, poor judgment, cruelty and injustice is so pervasive and ingrained, particularly in group behavior, that it will take an evolution, or perhaps a revolution in social awareness and commitment on the part of society to change this much further. And it won?t happen simply by creating, altering , imposing and enforcing laws or religious convictions. Something else in culture is needed, and all the attempts to create such transformations keep eroding because of the pervasively immature, selfish, sadistic, neglectful and cruel side of culture. Of course, this is particularly noticeable living in an era when there is so much regressive and manipulative social behavior. My interest in aphorisms certainly stems from my early trust in Catholic doctrine, and my later disenchantment and final disavowal of such beliefs. Also, psychoanalytic interpretations have some qualities similar to aphorisms. To this day, I always have a specific guiding principle I like to remind myself about as often as possible. For many years I have been carrying a couple of aphorisms written on a piece of paper in my wallet. I?ve noticed that when I have finally absorbed the insight into my daily life, I tear it up, throw it away and write another one. The creation and collecting of aphorisms as a literary practice essentially died by 1800. The practice probably dates from an era when publishing was very expensive and a book of aphorisms offered a concentrate of wisdom that was portable and easily memorized. Going from writing poetry to writing poetics and aphorisms as forms of meditation was not so much a leap for me, as my interest in poetry had less to do with public performances and publications and more to do with goals of personal transformation and change. Not that I didn?t want or don?t crave recognition and fame like most other poets, I wanted it but that craving contradicted a large part of my actual practice of and needs from the art. Meeting other poets, in particular, Ted Berrigan, helped me to find a way to introduce my poetry to others without having to submit it for publication. Around the time I met Ted, I also discovered the poetics of Paul Val?ry and the journals of Cesare Pavese. I found their books in a bookstore run by Stanley Lewis who was the first publisher of the magazine Parnassus. His bookstore, where I hung out in the mid-sixties, was across the street from the office of my first psychoanalyst, Alan Grossman. The reading and writing of poetics offered me a method of understanding the poetic process and where it might fit in with other aspects of living. I?ve always struggled with ambivalence about publishing my writing. This ambivalence is partly related to my allergy to literary pretentiousness, which I first encountered as a literary honors student in college. One important way I broke this repugnance came from the advice of Ted Berrigan who encouraged all his students to give readings. This created another conflict because I was intensely shy. So I took some acting lessons for awhile from a very supportive teacher, the late Osvaldo Riofrancos. For a long time I enjoyed giving and going to readings, as they complemented my interest in the meditative and transformative aspect of writing. Eventually, many of my L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry friends, as I mentioned above, helped me overcome my anxieties and reluctance about publishing. Still, the contemporary fashion on the part of poets to get as many poems as quickly as possible into print, while admirable and productive, is strange and in some ways worrisome to me. Maybe it is a healthy reaction and rebellion on the part of poets to the indifference and neglect of culture. At least in this way poets get their work ?on the record? and available for others to read. One unfortunate result, it seems to me, could be a dilution of its impact. Paul Celan once compared publishing a poem to throwing a message in a bottle into the sea. But poetry publication, at least for some poets today, is more like trying to empty the sea into bottles. fr. http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com/ Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. --Noam Chomsky Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman Fri Mar 11 09:46:30 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:46:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A: From deep short, Nick Piombino turns a sharp grounder into a triple play References: Message-ID: <009201c52649$1d3926c0$40b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A: From deep short,Nick Piombino turns a sharp grounder into a triple play Unfortunately, he was the batter at the time. Nothing against Nick or his work, but a conversion from Catholicism to Freudianism?! Good grief. --Bob G. From grahamd Fri Mar 11 10:33:00 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:33:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Jazz Message-ID: I'd second the recommendation of Langston Hughes. His long poem "Montage of a Dream Deferred" is one of the best American poems of the century, I think, and it's just drenched in be-bop. In addition to the Feinstein/Komunyakaa jazz anthologies, I'd also recommend Sacha Feinstein's critical book *Jazz Poetry From the 1920s to the Present* as a strong overview. As for more recent poets who made jazz central in their work, Wm. Matthews, Michael Harper, and Yusef Komunyakaa have already been mentioned. But I'd certainly want to add Al Young, Amiri Baraka (already mentioned?), Cornelius Eady, and Etheridge Knight. Ginsberg and other Beat poets often mention jazz, but strike me as having a romanticized and not very convincing understanding of what jazz is. Rexroth probably comes closer, and experimented in the 1950s (as did Hughes) with performing poetry to jazz accompaniment. Jazz may not be a central theme for Philip Levine, but he's been returning to it more and more. The cover of *Breath* is a photo of Don Cherry in the subway with his horn, and among the musicians who appear in this latest book are Bud Powell, Max Roach, Clifford Brown, Charlie Parker, Howard McGhee, Fats Navarro, Roy Eldridge, and Dinah Washington. And did anyone mention Hayden Carruth? Tad, did you say what piece you're writing? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From halvard Fri Mar 11 10:29:16 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:29:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Philip Lamantia (1927-2005) Message-ID: <000401c5264f$163a0460$8ef7e704@computer> Life Sciences Open the mirage that calls you. The wind's embalming fluid and the deserted shadow originating the flaw at outposts dovetailed into the transparent substance the absence of water turned around in the mirrors * My foot in the hair of spinning stars those curdles which limp through the shadows In spite of the ducky corrals stilettos wake up and write out your names on the raving bark which flows as the water of fire to blot out the animal checkers computing your brows --Philip Lamantia fr. *Becoming Visible* [San Francisco: City Lights Books, 1981] Hal Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From Kent.Johnson Fri Mar 11 10:39:56 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:39:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers Message-ID: You know, Marcus had said: >It's Czonka. And then I said: >SHIT! But in fact, I was right. It's Csonka. So Marcus was wrong. And I was right. And that's a trochee. Kent From grahamd Fri Mar 11 10:51:31 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:51:31 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] What need for purists? Message-ID: Purists Will Object We have the looks you want: The gonzo (musculature seemingly wired to the stars); Colors like lead, khaki and pomegranate; things you Put in your hair, with the whole panoply of the past: Landscape embroidery, complete sets of this and that. It's bankruptcy, the human haul, The shining, bulging nets lifted out of the sea, and always a few refugees Dropping back into the no-longer-mirthful kingdom On the day someone sells an old house And someone else begins to add on to his: all In the interests of this pornographic masterpiece, Variegated, polluted skyscraper to which all gazes are drawn, Pleasure we cannot and will not escape. It seems we were going home. The smell of blossoming privet blanketed the narrow avenue. The traffic lights were green and aqueous. So this is the subterranean life. If it can't be conjugated onto us, what good is it? What need for purists when the demotic is built to last, To outlast us, and no dialect hears us? --John Ashbery. *A Wave*. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From paul.lake Fri Mar 11 03:56:53 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 02:56:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz In-Reply-To: <040301c525e6$4a581700$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: On 3/10/05 8:59 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > Who are the most significant poets to have used jazz and jazz musicians as > major themes in their work? I'm thinking poets like Harper, Komunyaaka, > Matthews, Collins. I'm not really looking to get into an argument about > whether these guys are all mediocrities compared to the folks who write > rebuses, though I have no doubt that will happen. > > Harper was the first contemporary poet I remember to make jazz a central > theme. But am I wrong here? Were there others before him. I know, significant > poems like "The Day Lady Died" -- but jazz and people who create jazz as a > real central theme? > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Believe it or not, Dana Gioia, whose brother Ted is a jazz musician and critic. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Fri Mar 11 11:17:02 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:17:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <42317E2E.21703.B6006D@localhost> On 11 Mar 2005 at 9:39, Kent Johnson wrote: > You know, Marcus had said: > >It's Czonka. > And then I said: > >SHIT! > But in fact, I was right. It's Csonka. > So Marcus was wrong. > And I was right. That's right; I was wrong, Kent was right. I will note that I wasn't offering my spelling to Kent, though, but in response to the young lady who left off the C when she wrote "Zonka". I did enter "Czonka" into Google, and there were lots of entries, and I was wrong to assume that it was right because lots of other people spelled it wrong, too. Marcus From grahamd Fri Mar 11 11:35:13 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:35:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle Message-ID: A. R. Ammons's final (posthumous) collection has appeared, the memorably titled *Bosh & Flapdoodle*. Here's a sample: Fasting Not two months off till the shortest day, the shadows near noon all flop over one way as if it were soon to be dusk: that's winter coming all right, slanted over, long-casting, & pale: the trees are suddenly bristled stripped: did the sun steam a frost up and melt the leaves: probably not: squirrels shook the leaves out of the lofts: some (people) are strict, spare, and pure; some strew gems in the mud: I perforce raise the level of the mud till it endows shining, like lake ice or sunny water or like a distant field of pumpkins, leafless and unpicked, or even like the first rye fields against gray woods, so bright green: hark, the jewels are lost in the general rising, and the rare and priceless are cheapened by white towers in a still-blue day: of course, you can't wear an image, a windchurned figure from a volcano core, on your finger, and some thoughts are too grand to diadem a brain: (the tree by the road now looks like a sketch for a tree): Halloween needs what we have today ?- a stir: not a gale so constant and high but gusts that show up out of nowhere, presences that are not there, little twirls of leaves that scoot across the street and then just wilt out, forms, air-whorls that are made out of nothing but that touch your face or rustle into the bushes, whispering and hissing: all kinds of cases where motion charges the show and where motion gives its form away by picking up miscellany and throwing it off, motion the closest cousin to spirit and spirit the closest neighbor to the other world, haunted with possibility, hope, anguish, and alarm. A. R. Ammons ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Kent.Johnson Fri Mar 11 11:42:37 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:42:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers Message-ID: >I will note that I wasn't offering my spelling to Kent, though, but in response to the young lady who left off the C when she wrote "Zonka". I did enter "Czonka" into Google, and there were lots of entries, and I was wrong to assume that it was right because lots of other people spelled it wrong, too. Marcus, you are a gracious, young gentleman. Kent From tad Fri Mar 11 12:10:20 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:10:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Jazz References: Message-ID: <003001c5265d$36d770f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I have to write an encyclopedia entry on jazz and poetry. It's about 2500 words long. I've already covered the 20s, the 30s and 40s (that was easy - one short paragraph), the Beat era, and the 60s (The Last Poets). Now I'm coming up to the really contemporary stuff, and that's where I'm considering using Harper as harbinger. Now there's a name for a poet (not that Michael S. Harper doesn't have its own ring): Michael S. Harbinger. Here's my premise: The pecking order between jazz and American poetry completely reversed itself over the course of the 20th Century. Jazz began as the primitive handmaiden to the high art sublimity of poetry; ultimately, poetry was the supplicant art, jazz the altar. To the poet, at the beginning, the jazz musician was the anonymous Negro, the black buck, an occasion for poetry more than its real subject. Ultimately, the musician would become the reverently addressed Bird, or Lady, or Mingus, or dear John, dear Coltrane. A little later on, I have this sentence: So already in the Twenties, the principal ways in which poets were to use jazz had been established: jazz as metaphor, jazz as rhythmic base, and poetry as a voice to give words to the jazz musician. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:33 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Jazz > I'd second the recommendation of Langston Hughes. His long poem "Montage > of > a Dream Deferred" is one of the best American poems of the century, I > think, > and it's just drenched in be-bop. > > In addition to the Feinstein/Komunyakaa jazz anthologies, I'd also > recommend > Sacha Feinstein's critical book *Jazz Poetry From the 1920s to the > Present* > as a strong overview. > > As for more recent poets who made jazz central in their work, Wm. > Matthews, > Michael Harper, and Yusef Komunyakaa have already been mentioned. But I'd > certainly want to add Al Young, Amiri Baraka (already mentioned?), > Cornelius > Eady, and Etheridge Knight. > > Ginsberg and other Beat poets often mention jazz, but strike me as having > a > romanticized and not very convincing understanding of what jazz is. > Rexroth > probably comes closer, and experimented in the 1950s (as did Hughes) with > performing poetry to jazz accompaniment. > > Jazz may not be a central theme for Philip Levine, but he's been returning > to it more and more. The cover of *Breath* is a photo of Don Cherry in > the > subway with his horn, and among the musicians who appear in this latest > book > are Bud Powell, Max Roach, Clifford Brown, Charlie Parker, Howard McGhee, > Fats Navarro, Roy Eldridge, and Dinah Washington. > > And did anyone mention Hayden Carruth? > > Tad, did you say what piece you're writing? > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Fri Mar 11 12:20:35 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:20:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers References: Message-ID: <003701c5265e$a8d54e60$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> So Marcus was wrong And I was right On any occasion However slight At footballers' names Or prosody I proudly proclaim The winner is me Be it lineation Or metric feet To claim victory Is always sweet I'm taking on Grumman I'm taking on Lake Even J for James Make no mistake Or a Johnson named Halvard I'm okie-dokie I'm the one who was right And that's a trochee Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:39 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers > You know, Marcus had said: > >>It's Czonka. > > And then I said: > >>SHIT! > > But in fact, I was right. It's Csonka. > > So Marcus was wrong. > > And I was right. > > And that's a trochee. > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Fri Mar 11 12:21:54 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:21:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: Message-ID: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazzI have Ted's book. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Lake To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:56 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz On 3/10/05 8:59 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: Who are the most significant poets to have used jazz and jazz musicians as major themes in their work? I'm thinking poets like Harper, Komunyaaka, Matthews, Collins. I'm not really looking to get into an argument about whether these guys are all mediocrities compared to the folks who write rebuses, though I have no doubt that will happen. Harper was the first contemporary poet I remember to make jazz a central theme. But am I wrong here? Were there others before him. I know, significant poems like "The Day Lady Died" -- but jazz and people who create jazz as a real central theme? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Believe it or not, Dana Gioia, whose brother Ted is a jazz musician and critic. Paul Lake ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Fri Mar 11 12:32:26 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:32:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers References: <42317E2E.21703.B6006D@localhost> Message-ID: <004f01c52660$4e8ee270$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I offered no spelling to Kent Sure and never that was my intent It's C before S I made a good guess And straight off to Google I went I was wrong to assume it was right My concession's sincere and polite And just because Google Might turn up McDoogle No cause to get into a fight. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: "Kent Johnson" ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers > On 11 Mar 2005 at 9:39, Kent Johnson wrote: >> You know, Marcus had said: >> >It's Czonka. >> And then I said: >> >SHIT! >> But in fact, I was right. It's Csonka. >> So Marcus was wrong. >> And I was right. > > That's right; I was wrong, Kent was right. > > I will note that I wasn't offering my spelling to Kent, though, but > in response to the young lady who left off the C when she wrote > "Zonka". I did enter "Czonka" into Google, and there were lots of > entries, and I was wrong to assume that it was right because lots of > other people spelled it wrong, too. > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Fri Mar 11 12:36:03 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:36:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle References: Message-ID: <005201c52660$d274c0f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Does anyone have any feeling about the experience of reading a poem online? I may be showing my shallowness here, but I like being able to look at a poem on a page, and being able to tell at a glance how long it is, so that I can pace myself in reading it, knowing how close to the end I am. Of course, you can scroll down to the bottom and see how long a poem is, then go back up to the top and start reading, but then you're sort of admitting to yourself that that's what you're doing. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle A. R. Ammons's final (posthumous) collection has appeared, the memorably titled *Bosh & Flapdoodle*. Here's a sample: Fasting Not two months off till the shortest day, the shadows near noon all flop over one way as if it were soon to be dusk: that's winter coming all right, slanted over, long-casting, & pale: the trees are suddenly bristled stripped: did the sun steam a frost up and melt the leaves: probably not: squirrels shook the leaves out of the lofts: some (people) are strict, spare, and pure; some strew gems in the mud: I perforce raise the level of the mud till it endows shining, like lake ice or sunny water or like a distant field of pumpkins, leafless and unpicked, or even like the first rye fields against gray woods, so bright green: hark, the jewels are lost in the general rising, and the rare and priceless are cheapened by white towers in a still-blue day: of course, you can't wear an image, a windchurned figure from a volcano core, on your finger, and some thoughts are too grand to diadem a brain: (the tree by the road now looks like a sketch for a tree): Halloween needs what we have today <- a stir: not a gale so constant and high but gusts that show up out of nowhere, presences that are not there, little twirls of leaves that scoot across the street and then just wilt out, forms, air-whorls that are made out of nothing but that touch your face or rustle into the bushes, whispering and hissing: all kinds of cases where motion charges the show and where motion gives its form away by picking up miscellany and throwing it off, motion the closest cousin to spirit and spirit the closest neighbor to the other world, haunted with possibility, hope, anguish, and alarm. A. R. Ammons ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 11 12:55:05 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:55:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle References: <005201c52660$d274c0f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <009001c52663$752c1c10$487c3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> You got me Richard, but maybe that is more a question of time, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle > Does anyone have any feeling about the experience of reading a poem online? > I may be showing my shallowness here, but I like being able to look at a > poem on a page, and being able to tell at a glance how long it is, so that I > can pace myself in reading it, knowing how close to the end I am. Of course, > you can scroll down to the bottom and see how long a poem is, then go back > up to the top and start reading, but then you're sort of admitting to > yourself that that's what you're doing. > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:35 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle > > > A. R. Ammons's final (posthumous) collection has appeared, the memorably > titled *Bosh & Flapdoodle*. > > Here's a sample: > > Fasting > > > Not two months off till the shortest day, the > shadows near noon all flop over one way as if > > it were soon to be dusk: that's winter coming > all right, slanted over, long-casting, & > > pale: the trees are suddenly bristled > stripped: did the sun steam a frost up and melt > > the leaves: probably not: squirrels shook > the leaves out of the lofts: some (people) > > are strict, spare, and pure; some strew gems > in the mud: I perforce raise the level of the > > mud till it endows shining, like lake > ice or sunny water or like a distant field of > > pumpkins, leafless and unpicked, or even like > the first rye fields against gray woods, so > > bright green: hark, the jewels are lost in > the general rising, and the rare and priceless > > are cheapened by white towers in a still-blue > day: of course, you can't wear an image, a > > windchurned figure from a volcano core, on > your finger, and some thoughts are too grand > > to diadem a brain: (the tree by the road now > looks like a sketch for a tree): Halloween > > needs what we have today <- a stir: not a gale > so constant and high but gusts that show up > > out of nowhere, presences that are not there, > little twirls of leaves that scoot across the > > street and then just wilt out, forms, > air-whorls that are made out of nothing > > but that touch your face or rustle into > the bushes, whispering and hissing: all kinds of > > cases where motion charges the show > and where motion gives its form away by > > picking up miscellany and throwing it off, motion > the closest cousin to spirit and spirit the > > closest neighbor to the other world, haunted > with possibility, hope, anguish, and alarm. > > > A. R. Ammons > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad Fri Mar 11 12:59:06 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:59:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers References: <003701c5265e$a8d54e60$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <005f01c52664$06cb50a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> All that work, and I wrote it in anapests. I'll have to pay more attention to what I'm doing next time. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers > So Marcus was wrong > And I was right > On any occasion > However slight > > At footballers' names > Or prosody > I proudly proclaim > The winner is me > > Be it lineation > Or metric feet > To claim victory Is always sweet > > I'm taking on Grumman > I'm taking on Lake > Even J for James > Make no mistake > > Or a Johnson named Halvard I'm okie-dokie > I'm the one who was right > And that's a trochee > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kent Johnson" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:39 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers > > >> You know, Marcus had said: >> >>>It's Czonka. >> >> And then I said: >> >>>SHIT! >> >> But in fact, I was right. It's Csonka. >> >> So Marcus was wrong. >> >> And I was right. >> >> And that's a trochee. >> >> Kent >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From halvard Fri Mar 11 12:57:11 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:57:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle In-Reply-To: <005201c52660$d274c0f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: { Does anyone have any feeling about the experience of reading a poem online? { I may be showing my shallowness here, but I like being able to look at a { poem on a page, and being able to tell at a glance how long it is, so that I { can pace myself in reading it, knowing how close to the end I am. Of course, { you can scroll down to the bottom and see how long a poem is, then go back { up to the top and start reading, but then you're sort of admitting to { yourself that that's what you're doing. { { Tad Richards Oh, bosh and flapdoodle, Tad. I can do and do do all of that online (nothing against poems on pages, howsomever). Plus, deleting poems is so much easier to do online. All you have to do is hit the delete key; you don't have to tear the page(s) out of the book or journal and carry it(them) to the shredder or light them up in somebody's fireplace if you don't have one of your own. Hal, trying to be honest with himself From GrahamD Fri Mar 11 13:06:14 2005 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:06:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA16@URANIUM.ripon.college> Now here's a truly trivial tempest, so naturally I'm full of opinions. . . . I'm pretty much a Gutenberg kind of guy, and so, although I love finding poems online, when I really like one, I tend to print it out. And, often enough, seek out the book it's from. I like reading prose online even less than poetry. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Halvard Johnson > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:57 AM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle > > > { Does anyone have any feeling about the experience of reading a poem online? > { I may be showing my shallowness here, but I like being able to look at a > { poem on a page, and being able to tell at a glance how long it is, so that I > { can pace myself in reading it, knowing how close to the end I am. Of course, > { you can scroll down to the bottom and see how long a poem is, then go back > { up to the top and start reading, but then you're sort of admitting to > { yourself that that's what you're doing. > { > { Tad Richards > > Oh, bosh and flapdoodle, Tad. I can do and do do all of that online (nothing > against poems on pages, howsomever). Plus, deleting poems is so much easier > to do online. All you have to do is hit the delete key; you don't have to tear > the page(s) out of the book or journal and carry it(them) to the shredder > or light them up in somebody's fireplace if you don't have one of your own. > > Hal, trying to be honest with himself > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 11 13:08:18 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:08:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle References: <005201c52660$d274c0f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <009001c52663$752c1c10$487c3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <000d01c52665$4de96160$487c3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> Opps sorry, Tad Richards, > You got me Richard, but maybe that is more a question of time, > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather > admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "The Old Mole" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 6:36 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle > > > > Does anyone have any feeling about the experience of reading a poem > online? > > I may be showing my shallowness here, but I like being able to look at a > > poem on a page, and being able to tell at a glance how long it is, so that > I > > can pace myself in reading it, knowing how close to the end I am. Of > course, > > you can scroll down to the bottom and see how long a poem is, then go back > > up to the top and start reading, but then you're sort of admitting to > > yourself that that's what you're doing. > > > > Tad Richards > > www.opus40.org > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Graham" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:35 AM > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle > > > > > > A. R. Ammons's final (posthumous) collection has appeared, the memorably > > titled *Bosh & Flapdoodle*. > > > > Here's a sample: > > > > Fasting > > > > > > Not two months off till the shortest day, the > > shadows near noon all flop over one way as if > > > > it were soon to be dusk: that's winter coming > > all right, slanted over, long-casting, & > > > > pale: the trees are suddenly bristled > > stripped: did the sun steam a frost up and melt > > > > the leaves: probably not: squirrels shook > > the leaves out of the lofts: some (people) > > > > are strict, spare, and pure; some strew gems > > in the mud: I perforce raise the level of the > > > > mud till it endows shining, like lake > > ice or sunny water or like a distant field of > > > > pumpkins, leafless and unpicked, or even like > > the first rye fields against gray woods, so > > > > bright green: hark, the jewels are lost in > > the general rising, and the rare and priceless > > > > are cheapened by white towers in a still-blue > > day: of course, you can't wear an image, a > > > > windchurned figure from a volcano core, on > > your finger, and some thoughts are too grand > > > > to diadem a brain: (the tree by the road now > > looks like a sketch for a tree): Halloween > > > > needs what we have today <- a stir: not a gale > > so constant and high but gusts that show up > > > > out of nowhere, presences that are not there, > > little twirls of leaves that scoot across the > > > > street and then just wilt out, forms, > > air-whorls that are made out of nothing > > > > but that touch your face or rustle into > > the bushes, whispering and hissing: all kinds of > > > > cases where motion charges the show > > and where motion gives its form away by > > > > picking up miscellany and throwing it off, motion > > the closest cousin to spirit and spirit the > > > > closest neighbor to the other world, haunted > > with possibility, hope, anguish, and alarm. > > > > > > A. R. Ammons > > > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From kpaul Fri Mar 11 13:23:31 2005 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:23:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA16@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA16@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <20050311132224.N59154@kpaul.spinweb.net> http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000903034778/ Philips promises foldable paper displays ready within 2 years Just the other day we were talking about foldable displays being in our future now Philips says the future is only about two years away. The 5-inch PV-QML5 rollable display they..... On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Graham, David wrote: > Now here's a truly trivial tempest, so naturally I'm full of opinions. . . . > > I'm pretty much a Gutenberg kind of guy, and so, although I love finding poems online, when I really like one, I tend to print it out. And, often enough, seek out the book it's from. > > I like reading prose online even less than poetry. > > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > >> ---------- >> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Halvard Johnson >> Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:57 AM >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle >> >> >> { Does anyone have any feeling about the experience of reading a poem online? >> { I may be showing my shallowness here, but I like being able to look at a >> { poem on a page, and being able to tell at a glance how long it is, so that I >> { can pace myself in reading it, knowing how close to the end I am. Of course, >> { you can scroll down to the bottom and see how long a poem is, then go back >> { up to the top and start reading, but then you're sort of admitting to >> { yourself that that's what you're doing. >> { >> { Tad Richards >> >> Oh, bosh and flapdoodle, Tad. I can do and do do all of that online (nothing >> against poems on pages, howsomever). Plus, deleting poems is so much easier >> to do online. All you have to do is hit the delete key; you don't have to tear >> the page(s) out of the book or journal and carry it(them) to the shredder >> or light them up in somebody's fireplace if you don't have one of your own. >> >> Hal, trying to be honest with himself >> >> > now Philips says the future is only about two years away. The 5-inch PV-QML5 rollable display they ve developed recently is a vast improvement over the first prototype unveiled in February, 2004. It s an ultra-thin (100 m), ultra-light QVGA active-matrix 5-inch display running at a resolution of 320 x 240. When not in use, it can be rolled up into a tube with a radius of curvature less than 7.5mm. The monochrome display is easy to read even in full daylight thanks to a high 10:1 contrast ratio. It also features low power consumption, making it ideal for mobile applications. Philips says they ve developed recently is a vast improvement over the first prototype unveiled in February, 2004. Itre looking at being able to start production on these displays in two years time. Awesome when can we hope for a 30-inch laptop we can fold up and tuck into a shoulder bag? s an ultra-thin (100 m), ultra-light QVGA active-matrix 5-inch display running at a From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 11 13:26:01 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:26:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gitin - Marshall Message-ID: <002901c52667$c7b21170$487c3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> >From another list: David Gitin reading with Jack Marshall on Mar 21st, 7:30 PM, at Moe's Books in Berkeley, CA (2476 Telegraph Ave.) David Gitin********** >From my blurb for PASSING THROUGH at Amazon.com: David Gitin once told me that "poetry is rhythm and blues, person to person". PASSING THROUGH conveys "the pass of energy" from author to reader just as Gitin described. His extraordinary ear for music is reflected in the rhythms of not only each poem but that of PASSING THROUGH as a whole. The music, the work's lyric value, is one of the elements that conveys the humanity of these poems. The attention to song as fundamental in PASSING THROUGH is one thing that sets this book apart from most modern poetry. Gitin's poetry resides comfortably along side ancient Greek lyrics, Zen haiku, the experimental music of John Cage and Clapton's guitar. Ron Silliman notes in his blog, "Gitin as always is at once the most precise writer imaginable & a very restless imagination, a great combination. These poems push-pull on the reader in ways that are as unpredictable as writing as they are as real-world experiences." And Lyn Hejinian,"I was pulled in and read through it. The experience was delightful. Every phrase is compelling." I also agree with Michael McClure,"Gitin is a master of subtle rhythms that ear and eye blend on the field of the senses." Once in a great while a book of poetry comes along that makes a difference in our perceptions of what poetry is and can be. PASSING THROUGH is one of those books. Jack Marshal**************** Jack Marshall never lets readers forget that they are meat-on-the-bone, organic beings subject to the opposing drives of inherited culture and the urge toward greater consciousness. In signature language that is unadorned, yet musical and beautifully precise, Marshall explores the recent innovative advances in science and ecology, the complications of growing up with an Arabic Jewish heritage, of love, loss and memory in a world demystified by harsh politics and re-enchanted by compassion. *************************** Frank Parker frank at frankshome.org http://frankshome.org Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Fri Mar 11 13:32:47 2005 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:32:47 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers Message-ID: <28783528.1110565967854.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Remind me to send you a medal or a trophy or at least an embossed certificate. Absolutely priceless! - Jim -----Original Message----- From: The Old Mole Sent: Mar 11, 2005 10:20 AM To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers So Marcus was wrong And I was right On any occasion However slight At footballers' names Or prosody I proudly proclaim The winner is me Be it lineation Or metric feet To claim victory Is always sweet I'm taking on Grumman I'm taking on Lake Even J for James Make no mistake Or a Johnson named Halvard I'm okie-dokie I'm the one who was right And that's a trochee Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:39 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers > You know, Marcus had said: > >>It's Czonka. > > And then I said: > >>SHIT! > > But in fact, I was right. It's Csonka. > > So Marcus was wrong. > > And I was right. > > And that's a trochee. > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jeff.newberry Fri Mar 11 13:38:11 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:38:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA16@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA16@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <731bb17a05031110387623daf3@mail.gmail.com> Reading prose online makes my head hurt. I always feel as though I'm missing something. Since I tend to read all poetry aloud, I don't mind reading it online. But, I always seek out the book, if only to add it to my personal library. Incidentally, I think that "Bosh and Flapdoodle" would be a good name for a band. Jeff Newberry On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:06:14 -0600, Graham, David wrote: > > > Now here's a truly trivial tempest, so naturally I'm full of opinions. . . . > > I'm pretty much a Gutenberg kind of guy, and so, although I love finding > poems online, when I really like one, I tend to print it out. And, often > enough, seek out the book it's from. > > I like reading prose online even less than poetry. > > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ jln -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From jkok Fri Mar 11 13:41:37 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:41:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers In-Reply-To: <28783528.1110565967854.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <28783528.1110565967854.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Here Here! I could learn to love rhyme... On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, James Cervantes wrote: > Remind me to send you a medal or a trophy or at least an embossed certificate. Absolutely priceless! > > - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Old Mole > Sent: Mar 11, 2005 10:20 AM > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers > > So Marcus was wrong > And I was right > On any occasion > However slight > > At footballers' names > Or prosody > I proudly proclaim > The winner is me > > Be it lineation > Or metric feet > To claim victory > Is always sweet > > I'm taking on Grumman > I'm taking on Lake > Even J for James > Make no mistake > > Or a Johnson named Halvard > I'm okie-dokie > I'm the one who was right > And that's a trochee > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kent Johnson" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:39 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers > > > > You know, Marcus had said: > > > >>It's Czonka. > > > > And then I said: > > > >>SHIT! > > > > But in fact, I was right. It's Csonka. > > > > So Marcus was wrong. > > > > And I was right. > > > > And that's a trochee. > > > > Kent > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake Fri Mar 11 06:50:00 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:50:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Jazz In-Reply-To: <003001c5265d$36d770f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: On 3/11/05 11:10 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > I have to write an encyclopedia entry on jazz and poetry. It's about 2500 > words long. I've already covered the 20s, the 30s and 40s (that was easy - > one short paragraph), the Beat era, and the 60s (The Last Poets). Now I'm > coming up to the really contemporary stuff, and that's where I'm considering > using Harper as harbinger. Now there's a name for a poet (not that Michael > S. Harper doesn't have its own ring): Michael S. Harbinger. > > > > Here's my premise: > > The pecking order between jazz and American poetry completely reversed > itself over the course of the 20th Century. Jazz began as the primitive > handmaiden to the high art sublimity of poetry; ultimately, poetry was the > supplicant art, jazz the altar. To the poet, at the beginning, the jazz > musician was the anonymous Negro, the black buck, an occasion for poetry > more than its real subject. Ultimately, the musician would become the > reverently addressed Bird, or Lady, or Mingus, or dear John, dear Coltrane. > > > > > > A little later on, I have this sentence: > > > > So already in the Twenties, the principal ways in which poets were to use > jazz had been established: jazz as metaphor, jazz as rhythmic base, and > poetry as a voice to give words to the jazz musician. > > > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:33 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Jazz > > >> I'd second the recommendation of Langston Hughes. His long poem "Montage >> of >> a Dream Deferred" is one of the best American poems of the century, I >> think, >> and it's just drenched in be-bop. >> >> In addition to the Feinstein/Komunyakaa jazz anthologies, I'd also >> recommend >> Sacha Feinstein's critical book *Jazz Poetry From the 1920s to the >> Present* >> as a strong overview. >> >> As for more recent poets who made jazz central in their work, Wm. >> Matthews, >> Michael Harper, and Yusef Komunyakaa have already been mentioned. But I'd >> certainly want to add Al Young, Amiri Baraka (already mentioned?), >> Cornelius >> Eady, and Etheridge Knight. >> >> Ginsberg and other Beat poets often mention jazz, but strike me as having >> a >> romanticized and not very convincing understanding of what jazz is. >> Rexroth >> probably comes closer, and experimented in the 1950s (as did Hughes) with >> performing poetry to jazz accompaniment. >> >> Jazz may not be a central theme for Philip Levine, but he's been returning >> to it more and more. The cover of *Breath* is a photo of Don Cherry in >> the >> subway with his horn, and among the musicians who appear in this latest >> book >> are Bud Powell, Max Roach, Clifford Brown, Charlie Parker, Howard McGhee, >> Fats Navarro, Roy Eldridge, and Dinah Washington. >> >> And did anyone mention Hayden Carruth? >> >> Tad, did you say what piece you're writing? >> >> >> ==================================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> Poetry Library: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> ==================================================== >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > An interesting thesis, Tad. Good luck with the project. Paul --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jvcervantes Fri Mar 11 13:50:58 2005 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:50:58 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle Message-ID: <8434286.1110567058151.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> When the eyes take a stroll they're doing the scroll. -----Original Message----- From: The Old Mole Sent: Mar 11, 2005 10:36 AM To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle Does anyone have any feeling about the experience of reading a poem online? I may be showing my shallowness here, but I like being able to look at a poem on a page, and being able to tell at a glance how long it is, so that I can pace myself in reading it, knowing how close to the end I am. Of course, you can scroll down to the bottom and see how long a poem is, then go back up to the top and start reading, but then you're sort of admitting to yourself that that's what you're doing. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle A. R. Ammons's final (posthumous) collection has appeared, the memorably titled *Bosh & Flapdoodle*. Here's a sample: Fasting Not two months off till the shortest day, the shadows near noon all flop over one way as if it were soon to be dusk: that's winter coming all right, slanted over, long-casting, & pale: the trees are suddenly bristled stripped: did the sun steam a frost up and melt the leaves: probably not: squirrels shook the leaves out of the lofts: some (people) are strict, spare, and pure; some strew gems in the mud: I perforce raise the level of the mud till it endows shining, like lake ice or sunny water or like a distant field of pumpkins, leafless and unpicked, or even like the first rye fields against gray woods, so bright green: hark, the jewels are lost in the general rising, and the rare and priceless are cheapened by white towers in a still-blue day: of course, you can't wear an image, a windchurned figure from a volcano core, on your finger, and some thoughts are too grand to diadem a brain: (the tree by the road now looks like a sketch for a tree): Halloween needs what we have today <- a stir: not a gale so constant and high but gusts that show up out of nowhere, presences that are not there, little twirls of leaves that scoot across the street and then just wilt out, forms, air-whorls that are made out of nothing but that touch your face or rustle into the bushes, whispering and hissing: all kinds of cases where motion charges the show and where motion gives its form away by picking up miscellany and throwing it off, motion the closest cousin to spirit and spirit the closest neighbor to the other world, haunted with possibility, hope, anguish, and alarm. A. R. Ammons ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake Fri Mar 11 06:51:16 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:51:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz In-Reply-To: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: On 3/11/05 11:21 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > I have Ted's book. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Paul Lake >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >> >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:56 AM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz >> >> On 3/10/05 8:59 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: >> >>> Who are the most significant poets to have used jazz and jazz musicians as >>> major themes in their work? I'm thinking poets like Harper, Komunyaaka, >>> Matthews, Collins. I'm not really looking to get into an argument about >>> whether these guys are all mediocrities compared to the folks who write >>> rebuses, though I have no doubt that will happen. >>> >>> Harper was the first contemporary poet I remember to make jazz a central >>> theme. But am I wrong here? Were there others before him. I know, >>> significant poems like "The Day Lady Died" -- but jazz and people who create >>> jazz as a real central theme? >>> >>> >>> >>> Tad Richards >>> www.opus40.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> Believe it or not, Dana Gioia, whose brother Ted is a jazz musician and >> critic. >> >> Paul Lake >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > There are some poems about jazz musicians in Daily Horoscope by DG. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Fri Mar 11 14:06:12 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:06:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz In-Reply-To: References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com> Doesn't Gioia have a poem about Bix Beiderbecke? Jeff Newberry On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:51:16 -0600, Paul Lake wrote: > On 3/11/05 11:21 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > > I have Ted's book. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul Lake > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views > > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:56 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz > > On 3/10/05 8:59 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > > Who are the most significant poets to have used jazz and jazz musicians as > major themes in their work? I'm thinking poets like Harper, Komunyaaka, > Matthews, Collins. I'm not really looking to get into an argument about > whether these guys are all mediocrities compared to the folks who write > rebuses, though I have no doubt that will happen. > > Harper was the first contemporary poet I remember to make jazz a central > theme. But am I wrong here? Were there others before him. I know, > significant poems like "The Day Lady Died" -- but jazz and people who create > jazz as a real central theme? > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > > ________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Believe it or not, Dana Gioia, whose brother Ted is a jazz musician and > critic. > > Paul Lake > > ________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > There are some poems about jazz musicians in Daily Horoscope by DG. > > Paul > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From robin.hamilton2 Fri Mar 11 15:06:20 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:06:20 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin> There's also (oddly enough) Philip Larkin. He was deeply imto trad jazz -- a collection of his prose pieces was called _All What Jazz_ -- but as far as I know his one explicitly jazz poem was "For Sidney Bechet", which concludes with the lambent line, "Scattering long-haired grief and scored pity." http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/forbechet.html So dunno if he'd count. Robin Hamilton From grahamd Fri Mar 11 15:24:24 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:24:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz In-Reply-To: <008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: A nifty web site: Epistrophy: "an online resource dedicated to highlighting the influence and presence of jazz music in 20th Century literature." http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/welcome.html Essays, fiction, poetry, links. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From tad Fri Mar 11 15:24:38 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:24:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com> <008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <001301c52678$5ba22090$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Larkin was really serious about jazz, but he's off my radar screen, as I'm limited to US poets. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz > There's also (oddly enough) Philip Larkin. > > He was deeply imto trad jazz -- a collection of his prose pieces was > called > _All What Jazz_ -- but as far as I know his one explicitly jazz poem was > "For Sidney Bechet", which concludes with the lambent line, "Scattering > long-haired grief and scored pity." > > http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/forbechet.html > > So dunno if he'd count. > > Robin Hamilton > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Fri Mar 11 15:31:48 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:31:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: Message-ID: <001601c52679$5bdc4df0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I can't get that site to open up. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:24 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz >A nifty web site: > > Epistrophy: "an online resource dedicated to highlighting the influence > and > presence of jazz music in 20th Century literature." > > http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/welcome.html > > Essays, fiction, poetry, links. > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jeff.newberry Fri Mar 11 15:41:25 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:41:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Dana Gioia, "Bix Biederbeck (1903-1931)" Message-ID: <731bb17a050311124127c2afd1@mail.gmail.com> Bix Biederbeck (1903-1931) China boy. Lazy Daddy. Cryin' All Day. He dreamed he played the notes so slowly that they hovered in the air above the crowd and shimmered like a neon sign. But no, the club stayed dark, trays clattered in the kitchen, people drank and went on talking. He watched the smoke drift from a woman's cigarette and slowly circle up across the room until the ceiling fan blades chopped it up. A face, a young girl's face, looked up at him, the stupid face of small-town innocence. He smiled her way and wondered who she was. He looked again and saw the face was his. He woke up then. His head still hurt from drinking, Jimmy was driving. Tram was still asleep. Where were they anyway? Near Davenport? There was no distance in these open fields-- only time, time marked by a farmhouse or a barn, a tin-topped silo or a tree, some momentary silhouette against the endless, empty fields of snow. He lit a cigarette and closed his eyes. The best years of his life! The Boring Twenties. He watched the morning break across the snow. Would heaven be as white as Iowa? Dana Gioia, from *Daily Horoscope," Graywolf, 1986 Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From grahamd Fri Mar 11 15:45:16 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:45:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website In-Reply-To: <001601c52679$5bdc4df0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 3/11/05 2:31 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > I can't get that site to open up. > > Tad Richards Beats me, Tad. It's working for me both on Netscape and IE. Maybe try another page on the site, and see what happens? Here's the Michael S. Harper page: http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/harper.html > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:24 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz > > >> A nifty web site: >> >> Epistrophy: "an online resource dedicated to highlighting the influence >> and >> presence of jazz music in 20th Century literature." >> >> http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/welcome.html >> >> Essays, fiction, poetry, links. >> >> ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From tad Fri Mar 11 15:44:56 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:44:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website References: Message-ID: <001f01c5267b$318f1260$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I tried that. And the Michael Ondaatje page. Nothing will open for me. I'll try again later. Would anyone like to take a look at this - backchannel - before I send it off, and let me know if they think I've said anything incredibly stupid? After I finish it, that is. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website > on 3/11/05 2:31 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > >> I can't get that site to open up. >> >> Tad Richards > > > Beats me, Tad. It's working for me both on Netscape and IE. > > Maybe try another page on the site, and see what happens? > > Here's the Michael S. Harper page: > > http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/harper.html > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "David Graham" >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:24 PM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz >> >> >>> A nifty web site: >>> >>> Epistrophy: "an online resource dedicated to highlighting the influence >>> and >>> presence of jazz music in 20th Century literature." >>> >>> http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/welcome.html >>> >>> Essays, fiction, poetry, links. >>> >>> > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From grahamd Fri Mar 11 15:50:10 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:50:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry & jazz/Langston Hughes In-Reply-To: <001601c52679$5bdc4df0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: A section from *Montage of a Dream Deferred*-- Flatted Fifths Little cullud boys with beards re-bop be-bop mop and stop. Little cullud boys with fears, frantic, kick their draftee years into flatted fifths and flatter beers that at a sudden change become sparkling Oriental wines rich and strange silken bathrobes with gold twines and Heilbroner, Crawford, Nat-undreamed-of Lewis combines in silver thread and diamond notes on trade-marks inside Howard coats. Little cullud boys in berets "oop pop-a-da horse a fantasy of days "ool ya koo and dig all plays. --Langston Hughes ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 11 15:48:03 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 21:48:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website References: <001f01c5267b$318f1260$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <004701c5267b$9ed24360$16ad3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Niet, no way I can open it, ... From: "The Old Mole" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 9:44 PM > I tried that. And the Michael Ondaatje page. Nothing will open for me. I'll > try again later. > > Would anyone like to take a look at this - backchannel - before I send it > off, and let me know if they think I've said anything incredibly stupid? > After I finish it, that is. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:45 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website > > > > on 3/11/05 2:31 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > > > >> I can't get that site to open up. > >> > >> Tad Richards > > > > > > Beats me, Tad. It's working for me both on Netscape and IE. > > > > Maybe try another page on the site, and see what happens? > > > > Here's the Michael S. Harper page: > > > > http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/harper.html > > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "David Graham" > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >> > >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:24 PM > >> Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz > >> > >> > >>> A nifty web site: > >>> > >>> Epistrophy: "an online resource dedicated to highlighting the influence > >>> and > >>> presence of jazz music in 20th Century literature." > >>> > >>> http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/welcome.html > >>> > >>> Essays, fiction, poetry, links. > >>> > >>> > > > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jeff.newberry Fri Mar 11 16:02:19 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:02:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website In-Reply-To: <004701c5267b$9ed24360$16ad3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> References: <001f01c5267b$318f1260$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <004701c5267b$9ed24360$16ad3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <731bb17a050311130269c8f2e@mail.gmail.com> Hmm.. I haven't had a problem with it. Jeff N. On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 21:48:03 +0100, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Niet, no way I can open it, ... > > From: "The Old Mole" > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 9:44 PM > > > > I tried that. And the Michael Ondaatje page. Nothing will open for me. > I'll > > try again later. > > > > Would anyone like to take a look at this - backchannel - before I send it > > off, and let me know if they think I've said anything incredibly stupid? > > After I finish it, that is. > > > > > > Tad Richards > > www.opus40.org > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Graham" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > > > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:45 PM > > Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website > > > > > > > on 3/11/05 2:31 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > > > > > >> I can't get that site to open up. > > >> > > >> Tad Richards > > > > > > > > > Beats me, Tad. It's working for me both on Netscape and IE. > > > > > > Maybe try another page on the site, and see what happens? > > > > > > Here's the Michael S. Harper page: > > > > > > http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/harper.html > > > > > > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "David Graham" > > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > >> > > >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:24 PM > > >> Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz > > >> > > >> > > >>> A nifty web site: > > >>> > > >>> Epistrophy: "an online resource dedicated to highlighting the > influence > > >>> and > > >>> presence of jazz music in 20th Century literature." > > >>> > > >>> http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/welcome.html > > >>> > > >>> Essays, fiction, poetry, links. > > >>> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > David Graham > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > Poetry Library: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From halvard Fri Mar 11 16:07:53 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:07:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website In-Reply-To: <001f01c5267b$318f1260$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Ah, Tad, this message reeks of hope and despair--always so close to each other, though in no particular order. Hal { I tried that. And the Michael Ondaatje page. Nothing will open for me. I'll { try again later. { { Would anyone like to take a look at this - backchannel - before I send it { off, and let me know if they think I've said anything incredibly stupid? { After I finish it, that is. { { { Tad Richards From robin.hamilton2 Fri Mar 11 17:07:57 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:07:57 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com><008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin> <001301c52678$5ba22090$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00b501c52686$c9af01d0$e0032cd9@Robin> > Larkin was really serious about jazz, but he's off my radar screen, as I'm > limited to US poets. > > Tad Richards *Shame* on you, Tad -- now lemee see if I can think of a Scottish poet in this context. Robin From chris.kelly Fri Mar 11 17:14:47 2005 From: chris.kelly (Christopher Kelly) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:14:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz Message-ID: <47b337047af128.47af12847b3370@nyu.edu> in an Irish context, Michael O'Siadhail is a contemporary example. As is Irish language poet Geroid MacLochlainn. More hazily, there's Muldoon, Healy, etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton Date: Friday, March 11, 2005 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz > > Larkin was really serious about jazz, but he's off my radar > screen, as I'm > > limited to US poets. > > > > Tad Richards > > *Shame* on you, Tad -- now lemee see if I can think of a Scottish > poet in > this context. > > > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 Fri Mar 11 17:19:51 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:19:51 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com><008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin> <001301c52678$5ba22090$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00d301c52688$72650d00$e0032cd9@Robin> > Larkin was really serious about jazz, but he's off my radar screen, as I'm > limited to US poets. > > Tad Richards Another English (sorry, Tad) poet who was and is heavily into jazz was John Lucas -- he played trumpet in a band called, I think, The Red Hot Peppers. As with Larkin, I'm not sure how far this gets into his poems. Robin From tad Fri Mar 11 18:02:51 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:02:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com><008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin><001301c52678$5ba22090$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <00b501c52686$c9af01d0$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <001e01c5268e$76c1efc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Hey, I'm innocent as the driven snow, albeit reeking of hope and despair - the assignment is to write on jazz and US poetry. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz >> Larkin was really serious about jazz, but he's off my radar screen, as >> I'm >> limited to US poets. >> >> Tad Richards > > *Shame* on you, Tad -- now lemee see if I can think of a Scottish poet in > this context. > > > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad Fri Mar 11 18:16:56 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:16:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <040301c525e6$4a581700$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <005801c52690$6d661580$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> OK, someone has to help me out here. I don't know enough about Carruth. How did he deal with jazz in his poetry of the 50s and 60s? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:59 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz Who are the most significant poets to have used jazz and jazz musicians as major themes in their work? I'm thinking poets like Harper, Komunyaaka, Matthews, Collins. I'm not really looking to get into an argument about whether these guys are all mediocrities compared to the folks who write rebuses, though I have no doubt that will happen. Harper was the first contemporary poet I remember to make jazz a central theme. But am I wrong here? Were there others before him. I know, significant poems like "The Day Lady Died" -- but jazz and people who create jazz as a real central theme? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Fri Mar 11 18:33:33 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:33:33 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com><008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin><001301c52678$5ba22090$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00b501c52686$c9af01d0$e0032cd9@Robin> <001e01c5268e$76c1efc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00f801c52692$bdf8d850$e0032cd9@Robin> > Hey, I'm innocent as the driven snow, albeit reeking of hope and despair - > the assignment is to write on jazz and US poetry. > > Tad Richards Commercialism is breaking-out all over -- now me, I wouldn't write for money if they payed me. R. I remember, vaguely, years ago, seeing a film [which had a bit-part played by Orson Welles] called _Whatever Became Of What's His Name?_, about a poet who sold-out to advertising. The moral -- which always seemed to me to have a profound truth to it -- seemed to run: "Who me, sell out? Depends on what they're offering." My personal price is, I have to admit, low -- a warm dog biscuit and a crisp kennel. "Throw me a string-bone, I'm a Hungary Man," as Ezra Pound says somewhere in is it _Lustra_? Da Thing Then again, according to that clapped-out Scots advocate Boswell, Sam Johnson once said that anyone who wrote for any reason other than to make money was a fool. Have I got this right? Somehow, it doesn't seem quite ... dunno ... The Wee M'Greegor Mind you, there are worse things than to write for money. When Deacon Brodie decided to supplement his day-job as a cabinet-maker with the occasional evening's housebreaking, he ended-up hanged on his own gallows. Hyde The Deacon Brodie pub in Edinburgh serves a mean vegetarian haggis bap, so my son informs me. Dunno what that's got to do with anything, but. :-( Wild Young Dickie From schroesd Fri Mar 11 18:46:01 2005 From: schroesd (Steven D. Schroeder) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:46:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Eleventh Muse 2005 References: <200503111700.j2BH040s000575@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000d01c52694$7b9e89d0$130e4044@STEVECOMPUTER> The 2005 issue of The Eleventh Muse contains a superb array of 48 poems by 32 poets from 18 US states plus England. The issue is available for $8. Please mail checks (no cash) to: Poetry West PO Box 2413 Colorado Springs, Colorado 80901 The complete list of poets appearing in this issue: Aaron Anstett, David Anthony, Grace Bauer, Louis E. Bourgeois, Michael Cantor, Glenda Cooper, Michael Dobberstein, Karen Donovan, Justin Evans, Patricia Farewell, Meg Files, Ethan Fode, Sarah Getty, Taylor Graham, M. A. Griffiths, Jane Hilberry, Rose Kelleher, David Keplinger, Cindy E. King, Katie Kingston, Jennifer Koiter, Sandra McNew, Michael Milligan, Steve Mueske, Timothy Murphy, Chris Ransick, Matt Schumacher, Phillip Sterling, Clay Stockton, Wendy Videlock, Jane Wampler, Jake Adam York Congratulations to the following winners of the 2005 Lois Beebe Hayna Award for best poem in the issue, as selected by the entire editorial staff: 1st Place: "A Brief Correspondence Between Halloween and the Aurora Borealis," Matt Schumacher 2nd Place: "I Love to Stand on the Backs of the Turtles," Karen Donovan 3rd Place: "The Day the Funk Arrived," Steve Mueske Honorable Mentions "The Deadly-Sin Shoppe," Taylor Graham "South of Knoxville," Jake Adam York "Rays at Cape Hatteras," Rose Kelleher "For Claire," Michael Cantor More extensive information can be found at http://www.poetrywest.org/muse2005.htm Steven D. Schroeder Editor The Eleventh Muse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Fri Mar 11 18:43:58 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:43:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com><008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin><001301c52678$5ba22090$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00b501c52686$c9af01d0$e0032cd9@Robin><001e01c5268e$76c1efc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <00f801c52692$bdf8d850$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <007601c52694$340fe780$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Who said anything about money? I told you I was pure. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz >> Hey, I'm innocent as the driven snow, albeit reeking of hope and >> despair - >> the assignment is to write on jazz and US poetry. >> >> Tad Richards > > Commercialism is breaking-out all over -- now me, I wouldn't write for > money > if they payed me. > > R. > > I remember, vaguely, years ago, seeing a film [which had a bit-part played > by Orson Welles] called _Whatever Became Of What's His Name?_, about a > poet > who sold-out to advertising. > > The moral -- which always seemed to me to have a profound truth to it -- > seemed to run: > > "Who me, sell out? Depends on what they're offering." > > My personal price is, I have to admit, low -- a warm dog biscuit and a > crisp > kennel. > > "Throw me a string-bone, I'm a Hungary Man," as Ezra Pound says > somewhere in is it _Lustra_? > > Da Thing > > Then again, according to that clapped-out Scots advocate Boswell, Sam > Johnson once said that anyone who wrote for any reason other than to make > money was a fool. > > Have I got this right? > > Somehow, it doesn't seem quite ... dunno ... > > The Wee M'Greegor > > Mind you, there are worse things than to write for money. > > When Deacon Brodie decided to supplement his day-job as a cabinet-maker > with > the occasional evening's housebreaking, he ended-up hanged on his own > gallows. > > Hyde > > The Deacon Brodie pub in Edinburgh serves a mean vegetarian haggis bap, so > my son informs me. > > Dunno what that's got to do with anything, but. > > :-( > > Wild Young Dickie > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From robin.hamilton2 Fri Mar 11 19:01:43 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:01:43 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com><008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin><001301c52678$5ba22090$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00b501c52686$c9af01d0$e0032cd9@Robin><001e01c5268e$76c1efc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00f801c52692$bdf8d850$e0032cd9@Robin> <007601c52694$340fe780$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <011d01c52696$ad26acb0$e0032cd9@Robin> << > Who said anything about money? > > I told you I was pure. >> That's what they *all say, Tad. Come the day I see you handcuffed to the dock with the axe hovering above your neck, I'll laugh myself sick as a dog. A brindled mongrel pup, come to that. {I should be so lucky.} Greenfires Billy From tad Fri Mar 11 19:34:07 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:34:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com><008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin><001301c52678$5ba22090$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00b501c52686$c9af01d0$e0032cd9@Robin><001e01c5268e$76c1efc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00f801c52692$bdf8d850$e0032cd9@Robin><007601c52694$340fe780$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <011d01c52696$ad26acb0$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <00b901c5269b$365eb550$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I read it as " handcuffed to the dog with the axe hovering above your neck..." Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz > << >> Who said anything about money? >> >> I told you I was pure. >>> > > That's what they *all say, Tad. > > Come the day I see you handcuffed to the dock with the axe hovering above > your neck, I'll laugh myself sick as a dog. > > A brindled mongrel pup, come to that. > > {I should be so lucky.} > > Greenfires Billy > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From robin.hamilton2 Fri Mar 11 19:41:09 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:41:09 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz References: <004801c5265e$d4fae180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><731bb17a05031111067c069c4b@mail.gmail.com><008f01c52675$cdd2a390$e0032cd9@Robin><001301c52678$5ba22090$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00b501c52686$c9af01d0$e0032cd9@Robin><001e01c5268e$76c1efc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00f801c52692$bdf8d850$e0032cd9@Robin><007601c52694$340fe780$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><011d01c52696$ad26acb0$e0032cd9@Robin> <00b901c5269b$365eb550$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <015201c5269c$2ff4c050$e0032cd9@Robin> > I read it as " handcuffed to the dog with the axe hovering above your > neck..." > > Tad Richards Depends on the dog, but. Some of my Best Friends are dooks. Lasso From jvcervantes Fri Mar 11 20:44:50 2005 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:44:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website Message-ID: <25434086.1110591890777.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Pops open quickly for me too. I happen to know David's on a Mac like me. Maybe - wonder of wonders - there's a website out there that's Mac-friendly only! What a switch that would be. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: David Graham Sent: Mar 11, 2005 1:45 PM To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website on 3/11/05 2:31 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > I can't get that site to open up. > > Tad Richards Beats me, Tad. It's working for me both on Netscape and IE. Maybe try another page on the site, and see what happens? Here's the Michael S. Harper page: http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/harper.html > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:24 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz > > >> A nifty web site: >> >> Epistrophy: "an online resource dedicated to highlighting the influence >> and >> presence of jazz music in 20th Century literature." >> >> http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/welcome.html >> >> Essays, fiction, poetry, links. >> >> ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard Fri Mar 11 21:23:19 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 21:23:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/website In-Reply-To: <25434086.1110591890777.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: { Pops open quickly for me too. I happen to know David's on a Mac like me. Maybe - wonder of wonders - there's a { website out there that's Mac-friendly only! What a switch that would be. { { - Jim Well, you can give up *that* pipe dream, Jim. Popped up instantly for me, just like Kleenex. Hal Today's Special--Theory of Harmony www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From grahamd Sat Mar 12 01:10:05 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:10:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz/Carruth In-Reply-To: <005801c52690$6d661580$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 3/11/05 5:16 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: OK, someone has to help me out here. I don't know enough about Carruth. How did he deal with jazz in his poetry of the 50s and 60s? ----------------------------------------------- I don't believe he did deal with jazz much until the 1970s. The book I remember in that regard was *Brothers, I Loved You All*, from 1978. And since then, more and more, in both poems (*Doctor Jazz,* *Scrambled Eggs & Whiskey*) and essays (*Suicides and Jazzers*, *Sitting In*). ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sat Mar 12 01:29:12 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:29:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carruth/jazz Message-ID: Old Man Succumbing to Retrospection How his mind was always filled with music How he strove and strove from the age of fifteen in an orchard clouded with applebloom to the age of seventy-five in this so small and shabby room strove to invent a poem that would cry out in the variable textures of Bechet's soprano sax or Webster's tenor soaring growling whispering How he always failed How he toiled as the years came more and more to press upon his will although he nevertheless never permitted himself to give up How he says to himself now Is this a life And how it must be for what else can it be How he would have liked even so something more Or something a little less. --Hayden Carruth. *Doctor Jazz*, 2001. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From scrimple101 Sat Mar 12 04:44:27 2005 From: scrimple101 (robert lane) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:44:27 +1100 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] information for contributors to Malleable Jangle In-Reply-To: <200503111700.j2BH040u000575@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20050312094427.36856.qmail@web51409.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, this email is to inform published contributors to Malleable Jangle that the National Library of Australia has requested that they be granted permission to archive Malleable Jangle in their Pandora Archive. If you have any objection to your work being archived in this collection please inform me. Email address: malleablejangle at yahoo.com.au Sincerely, Robert Lane Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Sat Mar 12 11:04:29 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:04:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Csonka zonkers Message-ID: Tad, that is great! Hats off. Kent * So Marcus was wrong And I was right On any occasion However slight At footballers' names Or prosody I proudly proclaim The winner is me Be it lineation Or metric feet To claim victory Is always sweet I'm taking on Grumman I'm taking on Lake Even J for James Make no mistake Or a Johnson named Halvard I'm okie-dokie I'm the one who was right And that's a trochee Tad Richards From Kent.Johnson Sun Mar 13 12:24:33 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:24:33 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dear Campus Watch Message-ID: Dear Campus Watch, I have recently read the diatribe on the poet and activist Ammiel Alcalay, published in the American Thinker on March 4. I am not writing this letter to argue politics with you, for that would be silly, wouldn't it? I am writing, rather, to ask that you add me to the list of American poets you are putting under surveillance. Allow me to briefly list some of my credentials, as I think you will agree I deserve to be given a file in the archives of your organization. I was one of the poets published in Sam Hammill's Poets Against the War anthology. My poem, which was widely distributed before its anthology publication, including by the openly Marxist journal Monthly Review, is titled Baghdad, and it is loosely based on the children's book Goodnight Moon. Days went by... Then, the torture scandal at Abu Ghraib prison happened, and I published a poem titled "Lyric Poetry After Auschwitz, Or: Get the Hood Back On." This poem may be of particular interest to you, since (in addition to the fact that it is accompanied by photographs and the music of Dean Martin) Ammiel Alcalay himself saw fit to send it abroad for possible translation into Arabic. I don't know if it has been translated yet, but the English version is available here, where it has received thousands of visits since its appearance : http://www.blazevox.org/kent.htm Further, this poem is now the title poem of a collection of mine that is soon to appear. This book will contain numerous pieces by me (not everyone would judge it poetry!), all of which have some relation to the war in Iraq. The cover of this book will be, I think, somewhat original: The infamous shot of the American soldier holding the leash which is clipped to the neck of the prone prisoner shall be surrounded by pictures of daffodils among which shall be little Cupids shooting their arrows inward, toward the picture. But the most important thing I wanted to say about the forthcoming book is this: I intend to announce in the book that all author royalties from the sale of the collection are to be donated to Campus Watch. I wish to do this (and I hope you will accept the gesture) because I strongly believe your proto-fascist activities are an excellent stimulant to the defense of American values, like civil liberties and other stuff. Also, I should tell you that I correspond with Joseph Safdie, one of the "leftist" poets mentioned in the American Thinker article! He and I almost co-edited a book of recipes and favorite dinner anecdotes by poets. Alas, this book idea fell through, though I now can't quite remember why. But someone else should certainly do it, as it is a wonderful idea. Oh, and I should also say that in the 1980's I worked as a literacy teacher in Nicaragua on two different occasions. This was when the Sandinista's were in power. Though I'm more or less a social democrat now, I was *really* radical back then. From our village, we could hear the Contra mortars going off almost every night. Some of my friends died. Then I came back and founded the Milwaukee Central America Solidarity chapter, which went on to do all sorts of protest activities. One event we organized was called "Who's Watching You in 1984?" and hundreds of people attended, including numerous FBI agents. Not to get too sentimental, but it was at this event that I met my future wife. So, these would be some reasons you might wish to accept my request to be inducted into your files. I will be sure to send you a copy of the forthcoming book, which, again, shall go to support the activities of your organization. Sincerely, Kent Johnson From JforJames Sun Mar 13 18:11:25 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:11:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosh & Flapdoodle Message-ID: <60.51568a8b.2f66229d@aol.com> > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:06:14 -0600, Graham, David > wrote: > > > > > >Now here's a truly trivial tempest, so naturally I'm full of opinions. . . > . > > > >I'm pretty much a Gutenberg kind of guy, and so, although I love finding > >poems online, when I really like one, I tend to print it out. And, often > >enough, seek out the book it's from. > > > >I like reading prose online even less than poetry. > I'm with you on this, David Mainly because I spend hours each day on the computer, email, spreadsheets, word processing, databases. I crave the opportunity to be off line and reading a physical page. I'm expecting some time in the next century we won't be able escape the screen (scroll down). Finnegan The Thinnest Screens We didn't notice them, all those bulky monitors we'd become so used to, in airports, in sports bars, in their everywhere-you-turn ubiquity. But then gradually they slimmed down, became very thin, like super-models, & plug-n-play. The thinnest screens were diaphanous, amoebic, thin enough to float. Wafers slipping under doorways, filtering through Venetian blinds, escaping, at large, into our world. They were Bible paper. They could be worn as burkas. They slipped their tethers like parade balloons from the hands of children. You couldn't be sure it was a kite caught in a dying sycamore. The president's face skimming over the scrim of puddle ice. Was that really our flag snapping in the wind? The colors and shapes slightly altered--chameleon to every mood. They were bathmats, they were throws on the couch. But worse they began to be weave themselves into our clothes. Then we couldn't ignore or flee from them. Our images and likenesses draped in magnetic plasmas, sewn into gossamers of fiber optic strands, our second skins. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sun Mar 13 19:41:34 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:41:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lamantia obit Message-ID: <1db.37a4a50e.2f6637be@aol.com> Philip Lamantia -- S.F. Surrealist poet Visionary verse of literary prodigy influenced Beats - Jesse Hamlin, Chronicle Staff Writer Friday, March 11, 2005 Philip Lamantia, the blazing San Francisco poet whose embrace of Surrealism and the free flow of the imagination had a major influence on the Beats and many other American poets, died Monday of heart failure at his North Beach apartment. He was 77. A San Francisco native born to Sicilian immigrants, Mr. Lamantia was a widely read, largely self-taught literary prodigy whose visionary poems -- ecstatic, terror-filled, erotic -- explored the subconscious world of dreams and linked it to the experience of daily life. "Philip was a visionary like Blake, and he really saw the whole world in a grain of sand,'' said poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti, whose City Lights Books published four of Mr. Lamantia's nine books from 1967 to 1997. "He was the primary transmitter of French Surrealist poetry in this country,'' said Ferlinghetti, who first met Mr. Lamantia here in the early 1950s. "He was writing stream-of-consciousness Surrealist poetry, and he had a huge influence on Allen Ginsberg. Before that, Ginsberg was writing rather conventional poetry. It was Philip who turned him on to Surrealist writing. Then Ginsberg wrote 'Howl.' " That epochal poem made Ginsberg's name and set off a revolution in American poetry and culture. Ginsberg first read it aloud at San Francisco's Six Gallery on Oct. 13, 1955. The other four poets on the bill that night were Gary Snyder, Michael McClure, Philip Whalen and Mr. Lamantia. Rather than reading his own works -- his first book, "Erotic Poems,'' had been published in 1946 -- Mr. Lamantia read the prose poems of his friend John Hoffman, who had recently died in Mexico. "Philip was one of the most beautiful poets I've ever known. He was a poet of the imagination,'' said McClure, who lives in Oakland. "He was highly original -- I'd call his poetry hyper-personal visionary Surrealism -- and he was thrilling to be around. Everybody would sit around and listen to him all night. The flow of his imagination was a beautiful thing. '' A man of ecstatic highs and deep, deep lows, Mr. Lamantia suffered from depression, friends said, and had become a recluse in recent years, rarely leaving home. But in his younger days, he was a dashing figure who conversed brilliantly on a wide range of subjects. An omnivorous reader, he delved into astronomy, philosophy, history, jazz, painting, ornithology, Egyptology and many other subjects that informed his expansive vision. "He was very handsome, like a real Adonis,'' Ferlinghetti said. "He was a brilliant talker, a nonstop associative talker like Robert Duncan (the late San Francisco poet with whom Mr. Lamantia was associated on the pre-Beat San Francisco poetry scene of the late 1940s and early '50s). "He would talk in a continuous stream. One word would set him off in one direction, and another word would get him on another trip. He was a real polymath. And he had an encyclopedic memory.'' Born in San Francisco's Excelsior District, Mr. Lamantia worked as a boy in the old produce market on the Embarcadero, where his Sicilian-born father was a produce broker. He began writing poetry in elementary school and fell under the spell of Surrealism after seeing the paintings of Miro and Dali at the old San Francisco Museum of Art on Van Ness Avenue. He started reading the poetry of Andre Breton, the so-called pope of Surrealism, and other writers in the movement. In 1943, when he was 15, some of Mr. Lamantia's poems were published in View, a Surrealist-leaning New York magazine. Breton gave the young poet his blessings, describing him as "a voice that rises once in a hundred years.'' Some months later, Mr. Lamantia dropped out of Balboa High School and moved to New York City, where he lived for several years. He associated with Breton and other exiled European artists such as Max Ernst and Yves Tanguy, and he worked as an assistant editor of View. Returning to San Francisco after World War II, Mr. Lamantia took courses at UC Berkeley in medieval studies, English poetry and other subjects while continuing to write and publish poetry. In 1949, he began traveling the world, staying for extended periods in Mexico, Morocco and Europe. Coming back to the United States every few years, Mr. Lamantia became part of the underground culture blossoming on the east and west coasts. Like other poets who felt estranged from mainstream culture in the atomic age, "he found in the narcotic night world a kind of modern counterpart to the gothic castle -- a zone of peril to be symbolically or existentially crossed,'' wrote Nancy Peters, who later married Mr. Lamantia in 1978 and edited some of his books for City Lights. "The apocalyptic voice of 'Destroyed Works' is witness to that experience.'' Published in '62 by Auerhahn Press, "Destroyed Works'' was Mr. Lamantia's fourth book. The San Francisco house had also published the poet's two previous collections, "Narcotica'' and "Ekstasis,'' both in 1959. Ever searching to expand his vision, Mr. Lamantia spent time with native peoples in the United States and Mexico in the '50s, participating in the peyote-eating rituals of the Washoe Indians of Nevada. The poet, who taught for a time at San Francisco State and the San Francisco Art Institute, also embraced Catholicism. In later years he attended the Shrine of St. Francis in North Beach. "He had a vision of the world that was completely unique,'' said Peters, who later separated from Mr. Lamantia, but they remained good friends. She edited three of his books for City Lights, "Becoming Visible" (1981), "Meadowlark West" (1986) and "Bed of Sphinxes: New and Selected Poems, 1943- 1993.'' Andrei Codrescu, a poet and NPR commentator who knew Mr. Lamantia well, called him "one of the great voices of our subconscious for the last 50 years. "He was a very pure poet in the sense that he was one of the very few American poets who continued to pursue the Surrealist investigation of dreams and the unconscious -- and he connected those explorations to civic American life.'' A memorial is pending. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sun Mar 13 19:50:20 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:50:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Maureen Seaton Q&A Message-ID: <12e.59a5673d.2f6639cc@aol.com> http://www.scene360.com/STORYboard_interview_seaton.html N: Why do you choose to write using collage techniques and how does collage inform and/or heighten your writing? M: I truly, this is so clich?, did not CHOOSE to use collage techniques. They just kind of happened because my poems were getting bored with themselves. Yeah yeah yeah my poems would say and I too would start to nod off. Furthermore, I was raising two children (by myself, clich? #2) and had very little time to accomplish more than bits and bites of text. I could either kill myself for not having enough time and energy to write a terza rima, or I could take those fragments, move them around, glue them together, and see if my mind could follow the leaps. Lastly (not sure if this is clich? yet or not), I bought my first computer in 1994 and could more easily maneuver text. Voila: collage was born into my household. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Sun Mar 13 20:23:22 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:23:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Maureen Seaton Message-ID: <731bb17a05031317232c58d656@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Jim, for the link. Good stuff. I particularly liked the one below. Jeff Newberry After Sinead O'Connor Appears on Saturday Night Live, the Pope for Janet Bloch The night we baptize the sidewalk outside Our Lady of Sorrows across from Nelson's Funeral Home where the Neo-Futurists spray-paint Too Much Light Makes the Baby Go Blind, the only soul in sight is a woman with black eyes and bruises staining her chin like grape juice. Perplexed, she leans above a small figure stenciled on pavement and frowns. Barb and Van and I are moving away from the church like clouds up Clark toward Thybony Paints which I always call "Thy bony," and we're stunned to hear her voice behind us say: "What's that?" That is our simple rendering of a fifteenth century criminal? incantatrix, fascinatrix, malefica, sortilega, the one who gathers herbs, charms, boxes of gooey sacred ointments. When an old woman begins to doat and grow chargeable to a Parish, she is generally turned into...a stick-rider, poisoner, magus, hag, kasaph, evil-eye, screech-owl, night monster. When a young woman goes surfing on a river in Essex, to and fro on a board standing firm bolt upright, turning and winding it which way she pleases.., she is a strix, curandera, hocus pocus. When she heals a cold, braids her hair, unbraids it, breathes, dis- respects a pope, has freckles, pock marks, insect bites, cysts, she's charged, raped, starved, robbed, beaten, drowned, burned. "It's a woman," I say as our interloper gets close enough to touch. The neighborhood looks so bloodless on a Wednesday night, its citizens washed in tv, snug in bungalows and two-flats? a ma and pa world, hard-working-hard-playing-fear-of-the-Lord on a turquoise lake in the middle of turkey foot grass and corn fields. Redeemed. Three witches embracing a fourth. -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From shkodrov Mon Mar 14 00:12:06 2005 From: shkodrov (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:12:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dear Campus Watch In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050314051206.22763.qmail@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> Kent, I was thinking how to confess my love to you before, but now I can't hold it anymore! This letter is priceless! Rosie Kent Johnson wrote: Dear Campus Watch, I have recently read the diatribe on the poet and activist Ammiel Alcalay, published in the American Thinker on March 4. I am not writing this letter to argue politics with you, for that would be silly, wouldn't it? I am writing, rather, to ask that you add me to the list of American poets you are putting under surveillance. Allow me to briefly list some of my credentials, as I think you will agree I deserve to be given a file in the archives of your organization. I was one of the poets published in Sam Hammill's Poets Against the War anthology. My poem, which was widely distributed before its anthology publication, including by the openly Marxist journal Monthly Review, is titled Baghdad, and it is loosely based on the children's book Goodnight Moon. Days went by... Then, the torture scandal at Abu Ghraib prison happened, and I published a poem titled "Lyric Poetry After Auschwitz, Or: Get the Hood Back On." This poem may be of particular interest to you, since (in addition to the fact that it is accompanied by photographs and the music of Dean Martin) Ammiel Alcalay himself saw fit to send it abroad for possible translation into Arabic. I don't know if it has been translated yet, but the English version is available here, where it has received thousands of visits since its appearance : http://www.blazevox.org/kent.htm Further, this poem is now the title poem of a collection of mine that is soon to appear. This book will contain numerous pieces by me (not everyone would judge it poetry!), all of which have some relation to the war in Iraq. The cover of this book will be, I think, somewhat original: The infamous shot of the American soldier holding the leash which is clipped to the neck of the prone prisoner shall be surrounded by pictures of daffodils among which shall be little Cupids shooting their arrows inward, toward the picture. But the most important thing I wanted to say about the forthcoming book is this: I intend to announce in the book that all author royalties from the sale of the collection are to be donated to Campus Watch. I wish to do this (and I hope you will accept the gesture) because I strongly believe your proto-fascist activities are an excellent stimulant to the defense of American values, like civil liberties and other stuff. Also, I should tell you that I correspond with Joseph Safdie, one of the "leftist" poets mentioned in the American Thinker article! He and I almost co-edited a book of recipes and favorite dinner anecdotes by poets. Alas, this book idea fell through, though I now can't quite remember why. But someone else should certainly do it, as it is a wonderful idea. Oh, and I should also say that in the 1980's I worked as a literacy teacher in Nicaragua on two different occasions. This was when the Sandinista's were in power. Though I'm more or less a social democrat now, I was *really* radical back then. From our village, we could hear the Contra mortars going off almost every night. Some of my friends died. Then I came back and founded the Milwaukee Central America Solidarity chapter, which went on to do all sorts of protest activities. One event we organized was called "Who's Watching You in 1984?" and hundreds of people attended, including numerous FBI agents. Not to get too sentimental, but it was at this event that I met my future wife. So, these would be some reasons you might wish to accept my request to be inducted into your files. I will be sure to send you a copy of the forthcoming book, which, again, shall go to support the activities of your organization. Sincerely, Kent Johnson _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok Mon Mar 14 10:19:35 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:19:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz In-Reply-To: <005801c52690$6d661580$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <040301c525e6$4a581700$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <005801c52690$6d661580$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: I am just repeating what someone told me once...That the rythms of Creeley's Love Poems were based on jazz rhythms. I don't know if it is true or not, but may be useful to you. On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, The Old Mole wrote: > OK, someone has to help me out here. I don't know enough about Carruth. How did he deal with jazz in his poetry of the 50s and 60s? > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: The Old Mole > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:59 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and jazz > > > Who are the most significant poets to have used jazz and jazz musicians as major themes in their work? I'm thinking poets like Harper, Komunyaaka, Matthews, Collins. I'm not really looking to get into an argument about whether these guys are all mediocrities compared to the folks who write rebuses, though I have no doubt that will happen. > > Harper was the first contemporary poet I remember to make jazz a central theme. But am I wrong here? Were there others before him. I know, significant poems like "The Day Lady Died" -- but jazz and people who create jazz as a real central theme? > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Kent.Johnson Mon Mar 14 10:40:56 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:40:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dear Campus Watch Message-ID: I'd meant to include the link to the call for open letters in support of Alcalay, et. al. at Lisa Jarnot's blog. There you can also see The American Thinker's response to Jarnot's initial letter. http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/lisajarnot/blog/ I hope some of you will write! Go Poetry! Beat Falangism! Kent From cstroffo Mon Mar 14 14:24:09 2005 From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:24:09 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent Johnson Message-ID: <200503141902.j2EJ2c9N261148@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Hey Kent Could you just post the address (or e-dress, whatever) of that organization to whom you wrote the letter on this list Or, if not, at least backchannel it? thanks, Chris From halvard Mon Mar 14 14:40:54 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:40:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin Message-ID: "The canon is an idealistic maze and should ideally prefigure a range of meaningless mood musics, from elevator Muzak to New Age music, to ambient sound construction by Brian Eno, Soundlab and others, to endless TV soap operas and, most of all, to mid- to late-'70s disco with its emphasis on monotonous rhythms, its superficiality, and its blatantly unsubtle sexual innuendoes. The best way to listen to prerecorded voices and background music is to listen carelessly and accidentally, as if one were reading a poem by John Ashbery, T.S. Eliot or Charles Bernstein. Rod McKuen makes you care, unfortunately, and the last thing one wants to do while reading a poem is to care. Reading is too selfish for that. That is why the most boring and long-winded writings encourage a kind of effortless non-understanding, a language in which reading itself seems perfectly (I say this in a positive way) redundant. One needn't read through great novels anymore like one did in the nineteenth century with Balzac or now with someone like Tom Wolfe whose works are basically dull repetitions (realism) that function like a nineteenth-century version of the Nynex Yellow Pages or Page Six of the New York Post. They work to destroy that thing known as chance and probability and they replace it with that thing known as humor. Humor like that, especially in outmoded forms such as the novel, is always terrifyingly obvious because it tries to include everything. Unlike the overdeterministic exercises of Wolfe, the truly great works of the twentieth century are works that should remain unread, and Gertrude Stein is the most important writer of the twentieth century who ought to remain completely unread. One need read only a sentence and sometimes only a word to imagine the rest. I have never read more than two sentences of The Making of Americans at a time (they put me to sleep or make me want to eat something like pizza or hot dogs), and in that way I have read the book many, many times. I have, in a sense, never been able to put the book down and I hope that in the future I will continue to never put it down until the day that I die or stop eating. In other long-interlude disco-oriented works there are increasing possibilities for loss of recognition, that patterning of sounds we all speak to each other and upon which a host of social conventions depends. It is not an accident that disco has strong gay undercurrents and that the four-on-the-floor disco beat is totally canned and compared to the bluejeaned rock n' roll--unauthentic, mechanical and machine-based. Turntables replace the live voice. The dance floor replaces the stage concert pit. Two discs on two turntables, spinning simultaneously, replace the long-haired rock star. Synthesizers and drum machines replace the realistic. Disposability, superficiality and ephererality rule. Except for Donna Summer and a few others, most disco performers never became stars. Poetry should be like that. It should not be permanent, it should be very impermanent. It should aspire to the interminably pure moment of an interlude." --Tan Lin from "Ambient Stylistics" [Conjunctions 39, 2000] Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. --Noam Chomsky Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From jkok Mon Mar 14 14:59:39 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:59:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But I like my heart...??? On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > "The canon is an idealistic maze and should ideally prefigure a range > of meaningless mood musics, from elevator Muzak to New Age > music, to ambient sound construction by Brian Eno, Soundlab and > others, to endless TV soap operas and, most of all, to mid- to > late-'70s disco with its emphasis on monotonous rhythms, its > superficiality, and its blatantly unsubtle sexual innuendoes. The > best way to listen to prerecorded voices and background music > is to listen carelessly and accidentally, as if one were reading a > poem by John Ashbery, T.S. Eliot or Charles Bernstein. Rod > McKuen makes you care, unfortunately, and the last thing one > wants to do while reading a poem is to care. Reading is too selfish > for that. That is why the most boring and long-winded writings > encourage a kind of effortless non-understanding, a language in > which reading itself seems perfectly (I say this in a positive way) > redundant. One needn't read through great novels anymore like > one did in the nineteenth century with Balzac or now with someone > like Tom Wolfe whose works are basically dull repetitions (realism) > that function like a nineteenth-century version of the Nynex Yellow > Pages or Page Six of the New York Post. They work to destroy > that thing known as chance and probability and they replace it > with that thing known as humor. Humor like that, especially in > outmoded forms such as the novel, is always terrifyingly obvious > because it tries to include everything. Unlike the overdeterministic > exercises of Wolfe, the truly great works of the twentieth century > are works that should remain unread, and Gertrude Stein is the > most important writer of the twentieth century who ought to remain > completely unread. One need read only a sentence and sometimes > only a word to imagine the rest. I have never read more than two > sentences of The Making of Americans at a time (they put me to > sleep or make me want to eat something like pizza or hot dogs), > and in that way I have read the book many, many times. I have, in > a sense, never been able to put the book down and I hope that in > the future I will continue to never put it down until the day that I > die or stop eating. In other long-interlude disco-oriented works > there are increasing possibilities for loss of recognition, that > patterning of sounds we all speak to each other and upon which > a host of social conventions depends. It is not an accident that > disco has strong gay undercurrents and that the four-on-the-floor > disco beat is totally canned and compared to the bluejeaned rock > n' roll--unauthentic, mechanical and machine-based. Turntables > replace the live voice. The dance floor replaces the stage concert > pit. Two discs on two turntables, spinning simultaneously, replace > the long-haired rock star. Synthesizers and drum machines replace > the realistic. Disposability, superficiality and ephererality rule. Except > for Donna Summer and a few others, most disco performers never > became stars. Poetry should be like that. It should not be permanent, > it should be very impermanent. It should aspire to the interminably > pure moment of an interlude." > > > --Tan Lin > > from "Ambient Stylistics" > [Conjunctions 39, 2000] > > Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. > --Noam Chomsky > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From gmguddi Mon Mar 14 15:33:18 2005 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:33:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chris Stroffolino In-Reply-To: <200503141902.j2EJ2c9N261148@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200503141902.j2EJ2c9N261148@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050314143049.0299d940@mail.ilstu.edu> Chris, It's www.campus-watch.org/ email: staff at campus-watch.org Gabe At 01:24 PM 3/14/2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote: >Hey Kent > >Could you just post the address (or e-dress, whatever) >of that organization to whom you wrote the letter on this list >Or, if not, at least backchannel it? > >thanks, >Chris >_________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil Mon Mar 14 15:52:46 2005 From: alphavil (Alphaville) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:52:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4235F99E.4090008@ix.netcom.com> Tan Lin speaks only to his/her capacities. I'd like to say that's too bad but why encourage people. CP Kerry O'Keefe wrote: >But I like my heart...??? > > >On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > >>"The canon is an idealistic maze and should ideally prefigure a range >>of meaningless mood musics, from elevator Muzak to New Age >>music, to ambient sound construction by Brian Eno, Soundlab and >>others, to endless TV soap operas and, most of all, to mid- to >>late-'70s disco with its emphasis on monotonous rhythms, its >>superficiality, and its blatantly unsubtle sexual innuendoes. The >>best way to listen to prerecorded voices and background music >>is to listen carelessly and accidentally, as if one were reading a >>poem by John Ashbery, T.S. Eliot or Charles Bernstein. Rod >>McKuen makes you care, unfortunately, and the last thing one >>wants to do while reading a poem is to care. Reading is too selfish >>for that. That is why the most boring and long-winded writings >>encourage a kind of effortless non-understanding, a language in >>which reading itself seems perfectly (I say this in a positive way) >>redundant. One needn't read through great novels anymore like >>one did in the nineteenth century with Balzac or now with someone >>like Tom Wolfe whose works are basically dull repetitions (realism) >>that function like a nineteenth-century version of the Nynex Yellow >>Pages or Page Six of the New York Post. They work to destroy >>that thing known as chance and probability and they replace it >>with that thing known as humor. Humor like that, especially in >>outmoded forms such as the novel, is always terrifyingly obvious >>because it tries to include everything. Unlike the overdeterministic >>exercises of Wolfe, the truly great works of the twentieth century >>are works that should remain unread, and Gertrude Stein is the >>most important writer of the twentieth century who ought to remain >>completely unread. One need read only a sentence and sometimes >>only a word to imagine the rest. I have never read more than two >>sentences of The Making of Americans at a time (they put me to >>sleep or make me want to eat something like pizza or hot dogs), >>and in that way I have read the book many, many times. I have, in >>a sense, never been able to put the book down and I hope that in >>the future I will continue to never put it down until the day that I >>die or stop eating. In other long-interlude disco-oriented works >>there are increasing possibilities for loss of recognition, that >>patterning of sounds we all speak to each other and upon which >>a host of social conventions depends. It is not an accident that >>disco has strong gay undercurrents and that the four-on-the-floor >>disco beat is totally canned and compared to the bluejeaned rock >>n' roll--unauthentic, mechanical and machine-based. Turntables >>replace the live voice. The dance floor replaces the stage concert >>pit. Two discs on two turntables, spinning simultaneously, replace >>the long-haired rock star. Synthesizers and drum machines replace >>the realistic. Disposability, superficiality and ephererality rule. Except >>for Donna Summer and a few others, most disco performers never >>became stars. Poetry should be like that. It should not be permanent, >>it should be very impermanent. It should aspire to the interminably >>pure moment of an interlude." >> >> >>--Tan Lin >> >>from "Ambient Stylistics" >>[Conjunctions 39, 2000] >> >>Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. >> --Noam Chomsky >> >>Halvard Johnson >>=============== >>email: halvard at earthlink.net >>website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >>blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From grahamd Mon Mar 14 16:01:27 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:01:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness Message-ID: Adam Kirsch, Daisy Fried, Thomas Sayers Ellis, and Jeredith Merrin take a few whacks at Big Questions in a brief symposium on poetic ambition & greatness in the March issue of *Poetry*. Suitably inconclusive, occasionally cranky, and well worth reading-- http://www.poetrymagazine.org/exchange_march05_prose.html ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Kent.Johnson Mon Mar 14 17:29:58 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:29:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Campus Watch address Message-ID: Chris, and hopefully others: The place to send letters is: staff at campus-watch.org Good idea, too, to post the letters publicly for extra effect-- on lists, blogs, journals, etc. Kent From Kent.Johnson Mon Mar 14 18:04:34 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:04:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] on matter of Campus Watch Message-ID: a note I sent to another poet on this: * Thanks, Kass. It's illuminating how few the poets are, so far, who have cared to speak out on this, offer response, etc. : expected, perhaps, amongst politically conservative poets, but also sadly typical of the "politically progressive" poetry world, alas: lots of posturing and tough talk in house and then all sorts of coincidental laryngitis and dissembled distraction when it matters in the real commons. I've noticed for example, that most poetry bloggers, for example, can't even extend their solidarity by linking to sites where the issue has been discussed. Can't take up that bandwith, you know... Well, When they came for the first person I said nothing, etc. etc. Kent From grahamd Mon Mar 14 19:38:41 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:38:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert, Language Poet Message-ID: Up now at Ron Silliman's blog is a rather fascinating entry on Jack Gilbert. http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Gilbert is not, in fact, a language poet--but Ron Silliman's point seems to be that he could have been, if he'd just pushed a bit further and not been marked with "the scar of sincerity." Silliman mentions that Gilbert's been "vituperative" in his statements about language poetry, so I imagine this news will not be particularly welcome to the poet. I'd be interested to learn what those who know Gilbert's work better than I do think of Silliman's argument, which I found fairly unconvincing but, as always, worth some pondering. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From jeff.newberry Mon Mar 14 22:20:25 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:20:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert, Language Poet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a0503141920fd9a5a1@mail.gmail.com> Silliman here uses tactics that I'm sure he'd crucify another writer for using. What if I attacked a poet like Robin Blaser for not being a narrative poet? What if I said that --- is a poor poet because he was "almost" a narrative poet? Heck, I'll go a step further. I'll argue that Garrett Hongo is a poor poet because he's rejected Language poetry. This logic makes no sense. Well of course it doesn't. Silliman also seems to believe that no other type of poetry should exist. His aesthetic seems based on political posturing, not artistic merit. I suppose that in Silliman's eyes, I'm a failure, as well. That's fine, and quite frankly, I don't give a damn. Maybe my "romantic posturing" looks silly (I'm 30). I really don't see why anyone would attach themselves to a label such as "Language poet," anyway. I like to write about all kinds of things, and sometimes I use narrative and sometimes I use lyric and sometimes I rhyme (though not very often) and sometimes I write about the limitations of langauge itself. I don't really care to have a label attached to my work. And I can think of any poet that I admire who does. When labels get in the way of writing, you're right back there at 16 years of age, smoking a cigarette, wearing a lot of black, and thinking that Jim Morrison is the end-all-be-all of American verse. You never write, of course, but you call yourself a writer. You're artistic. You're a POET. Sheesh. Jeff Newberry On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:38:41 -0600, David Graham wrote: > Up now at Ron Silliman's blog is a rather fascinating entry on Jack Gilbert. > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > Gilbert is not, in fact, a language poet--but Ron Silliman's point seems to > be that he could have been, if he'd just pushed a bit further and not been > marked with "the scar of sincerity." > > Silliman mentions that Gilbert's been "vituperative" in his statements about > language poetry, so I imagine this news will not be particularly welcome to > the poet. I'd be interested to learn what those who know Gilbert's work > better than I do think of Silliman's argument, which I found fairly > unconvincing but, as always, worth some pondering. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman Mon Mar 14 23:14:03 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:14:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin References: <4235F99E.4090008@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <022801c52915$6c70c8f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Tan Lin speaks only to his/her capacities. I'd like to say that's too > bad but why encourage people. CP Sounded to me like he was just having fun. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Mon Mar 14 23:23:34 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:23:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness References: Message-ID: <023c01c52916$c0e04630$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Adam Kirsch, Daisy Fried, Thomas Sayers Ellis, and Jeredith Merrin take a > few whacks at Big Questions in a brief symposium on poetic ambition & > greatness in the March issue of *Poetry*. Suitably inconclusive, > occasionally cranky, and well worth reading-- > > http://www.poetrymagazine.org/exchange_march05_prose.html I found it just the sort of trivial crap one would expect from people connected to poetry magazine and not worth reading. --Bob G. From bardo Tue Mar 15 00:14:20 2005 From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:14:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness References: <023c01c52916$c0e04630$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <021e01c5291d$d86f2440$3a95c044@MULDER> Why, Bob? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness > > >> Adam Kirsch, Daisy Fried, Thomas Sayers Ellis, and Jeredith Merrin take a >> few whacks at Big Questions in a brief symposium on poetic ambition & >> greatness in the March issue of *Poetry*. Suitably inconclusive, >> occasionally cranky, and well worth reading-- >> >> http://www.poetrymagazine.org/exchange_march05_prose.html > > I found it just the sort of trivial crap one would expect from people > connected to poetry magazine and not worth reading. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From alphavil Tue Mar 15 01:35:44 2005 From: alphavil (Alphaville) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:35:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] In-Reply-To: <023c01c52916$c0e04630$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <023c01c52916$c0e04630$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42368240.4040601@ix.netcom.com> http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ Stephen Hadley Yawps: "I can hire one half of Islam to murder the other half!!!": With Additional French Funding Thousands Trucked In To March Against Syria in Beirut: France Still Hopes To Reclaim Its Former Colony; Israel To Isolate Hezbollah; U.S. To Draw Both Into New Strategic Arrangements Disguised As 'Acceptable' Elected Governments: Why Did the Western Media Feel So Compelled To Inflate Protest Numbers?: Americans Desperately Hope Leaning On Syria Will Dampen Iraqi Nationalism: By TACHENFUR. GAHRATTAS Assassinated Press Writer March 14, 2005 > From alphavil Tue Mar 15 01:37:36 2005 From: alphavil (Alphaville) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:37:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin In-Reply-To: <022801c52915$6c70c8f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <4235F99E.4090008@ix.netcom.com> <022801c52915$6c70c8f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <423682B0.2090704@ix.netcom.com> Bob Grumman speaks only to his/her capacities. I'd like to say that's too bad but why encourage people. CP Bob Grumman wrote: >> Tan Lin speaks only to his/her capacities. I'd like to say that's too >> bad but why encourage people. CP > > > Sounded to me like he was just having fun. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Tue Mar 15 07:06:58 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:06:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin References: <4235F99E.4090008@ix.netcom.com><022801c52915$6c70c8f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <423682B0.2090704@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <003701c52957$7d89bec0$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob Grumman speaks only to his/her capacities. I'd like to say that's too > bad but why encourage people. CP > > Bob Grumman wrote: Instead, why not be nice and tell us all how to speak beyond our capacities like you, halfwit? --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Mar 15 07:35:41 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:35:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness References: <023c01c52916$c0e04630$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <021e01c5291d$d86f2440$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <004c01c5295b$80299a20$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Why, Bob? The subject is a yawn, the "ideas" put forth cliched and incredibly constricted. No real attempt to define terms. The word-to-thought ratio is high. Plus the fact that the people involved struck me (yes, subjectively) as being near-maximally distant from any internal knowledge of what greatness by any definition would be. Sheep discussing whether wanting to be a lion is a good thing or not. Now tell me, Dan, why you didn't ask David why he thought the article worth reading? Why are hostile critics so much more often asked to defend their positions than friendly ones? My opinion would have been shorter: no one who is not insanely driven by, among other things, an aim to be a great poet, by which I mean simply a poet who composes poetry as lasting as, say, Milton's, will ever compose an important body of work. I would not deny such persons their fun, and would certainly agree that sometimes they can produce nice work, perhaps even one or two lasting pieces, but they won't do more. This is not to say that a great poet must always struggle to produce great work, or that anyone who does that will produce great work, as I should not have to say. --Bob G. From clitophon Tue Mar 15 07:40:27 2005 From: clitophon (Paul Murphy) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 04:40:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] creative writing In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050315124027.85277.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, does anyone know of any colleges or universities that are currently seeking creative writing tutors? best wishes, Paul Murphy www.theengine.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From jvcervantes Tue Mar 15 08:01:31 2005 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:01:31 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin Message-ID: <19735620.1110891691911.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I especially like the poetry A-list dancing to disco while we watch Campus Watch, lucky to be able to say to everyone we know "Your copy of my book arrived today and will go off book rate tomorrow." For, after all, we like our hearts and parts and anything that remains unread by those we love. The canon, after all, is like an endless sandwich of language poetry at a party, being assembled on the eternal loaf as we cut a bit for ourselves at the other end. That is "the interminably pure moment of an interlude." And some fear he means it. I mean, we must pretend this was written by Rin Tan Lin, who has achieved some fame amongst us through a gracious offering by someone, and we must doff our fashion, baseball, golf, or NASCAR caps to him. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Mar 14, 2005 12:40 PM To: New-Poetry Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin "The canon is an idealistic maze and should ideally prefigure a range of meaningless mood musics, from elevator Muzak to New Age music, to ambient sound construction by Brian Eno, Soundlab and others, to endless TV soap operas and, most of all, to mid- to late-'70s disco with its emphasis on monotonous rhythms, its superficiality, and its blatantly unsubtle sexual innuendoes. The best way to listen to prerecorded voices and background music is to listen carelessly and accidentally, as if one were reading a poem by John Ashbery, T.S. Eliot or Charles Bernstein. Rod McKuen makes you care, unfortunately, and the last thing one wants to do while reading a poem is to care. Reading is too selfish for that. That is why the most boring and long-winded writings encourage a kind of effortless non-understanding, a language in which reading itself seems perfectly (I say this in a positive way) redundant. One needn't read through great novels anymore like one did in the nineteenth century with Balzac or now with someone like Tom Wolfe whose works are basically dull repetitions (realism) that function like a nineteenth-century version of the Nynex Yellow Pages or Page Six of the New York Post. They work to destroy that thing known as chance and probability and they replace it with that thing known as humor. Humor like that, especially in outmoded forms such as the novel, is always terrifyingly obvious because it tries to include everything. Unlike the overdeterministic exercises of Wolfe, the truly great works of the twentieth century are works that should remain unread, and Gertrude Stein is the most important writer of the twentieth century who ought to remain completely unread. One need read only a sentence and sometimes only a word to imagine the rest. I have never read more than two sentences of The Making of Americans at a time (they put me to sleep or make me want to eat something like pizza or hot dogs), and in that way I have read the book many, many times. I have, in a sense, never been able to put the book down and I hope that in the future I will continue to never put it down until the day that I die or stop eating. In other long-interlude disco-oriented works there are increasing possibilities for loss of recognition, that patterning of sounds we all speak to each other and upon which a host of social conventions depends. It is not an accident that disco has strong gay undercurrents and that the four-on-the-floor disco beat is totally canned and compared to the bluejeaned rock n' roll--unauthentic, mechanical and machine-based. Turntables replace the live voice. The dance floor replaces the stage concert pit. Two discs on two turntables, spinning simultaneously, replace the long-haired rock star. Synthesizers and drum machines replace the realistic. Disposability, superficiality and ephererality rule. Except for Donna Summer and a few others, most disco performers never became stars. Poetry should be like that. It should not be permanent, it should be very impermanent. It should aspire to the interminably pure moment of an interlude." --Tan Lin from "Ambient Stylistics" [Conjunctions 39, 2000] Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. --Noam Chomsky Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry "I'm not a thinker, I'm an intuiter." From tad Tue Mar 15 08:24:35 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:24:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin References: <4235F99E.4090008@ix.netcom.com><022801c52915$6c70c8f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><423682B0.2090704@ix.netcom.com> <003701c52957$7d89bec0$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002e01c52962$59bab7f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for? -- Another halfwit Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin > > >> Bob Grumman speaks only to his/her capacities. I'd like to say that's too >> bad but why encourage people. CP >> >> Bob Grumman wrote: > > Instead, why not be nice and tell us all how to speak beyond our capacities > like you, halfwit? > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Tue Mar 15 08:26:39 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:26:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Stein star rising? Message-ID: <002c01c52962$9ef7c920$bccaed04@computer> FYRP Hal ===== The New York Times March 15, 2005 CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK The Mother of Us All (All of Us Modernists) By MARGO JEFFERSON Gertrude Stein is the consummate avant-gardist. She is always ahead of the pack, even a rarefied pack. No less a poet than John Ashbery has confessed to several attempts at reading her "endless impossible novel, 'The Making of Americans,' " and years of pretending to have read it. Finally he did, and swears he would do so again: it is, he said, "one of the monuments of our literature and of world literature." I haven't managed it yet. Monuments can be appreciated from a distance, too. But I am a great fan of her shorter works: some of the most original, entertaining essays yet written about literature and language; still lifes and portraits that use words as palettes of color and sound. Then there are the plays and operas, which defy centuries of dramatic convention. But "defy" is the wrong word. "Defy" suggests angst and conflict. Stein never defied, she blithely disregarded. She made stage directions into dialogue and spoken dialogue into songlike rhymes. An act or scene could be a sentence long. She used nonsense poetry and drawing-room declamation. She was a comic artist, even when the subject was serious. A jester who created her own court. Stein found popular success in the 1930's. Her mock-memoir "The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas" was a best seller in the United States. The two operas she wrote with Virgil Thomson were also well received; "Three Saints in Four Acts" is about St. Teresa of Avila, and "The Mother of Us All" is an homage to Susan B. Anthony. Thomson understood her simplicity and her daring. Even artists who disliked Stein's work got its musicality. When Katherine Mansfield reviewed "Three Lives" in 1920, she complained: "it is writing in real rag-time." It was. Stein was finding her voice by listening to the syncopated rhythms of African-American speech and (to a lesser degree) the sturdy beats of German immigrant talk. She loved repetition and variation. Phrases with minute changes will join sentences, and these sentences will collect new phrases and accents. Then a sudden change of topic - a new sentence or a new setting for an old sentence - and gradually they make a whole. In a 1934 lecture called "Poetry and Grammar," she described American English the way a critic might describe the music of Thelonious Monk, John Cage or Terry Riley: "An American can fill up a space in having his movement of time by adding unexpectedly anything and yet getting within the included space everything he had intended getting." Stein the theater artist has gathered force through the years. Her work has been staged by the Living Theater and by the Judson Poets' Theater, by Robert Wilson and by Richard Foreman. Of course she was thinking of herself when she called an opera "The Mother of Us All." Her egotism was epic, and the only mothers she admired were pioneers and warriors. She has been both for generations of theater artists. Take "Doctor Faustus Lights the Lights," the 1938 opera in which Stein rewrote both the Faust legend and the story of Adam, Eve and the serpent. Now the Wooster Group has revived its popular 1999 version of this work, "House/Lights," at St. Ann's Warehouse in Brooklyn through April 10. Stein revised Goethe and Genesis to make her own version of hell - where no one is interested in the inventions that you sell your soul for - and paradise. (Marguerite Ida/Helena Annabel, the woman who triumphs in the end, says: "I know no man or devil no viper and no light I can be anything and everything and it is always always alright.") The Wooster Group cuts between scenes from Stein and scenes from "Olga's House of Shame," a 1964 B-movie about a dominatrix jewel thief (Olga), the girls she keeps in thrall and the glamorous traitor (Elaine) whom she torments, then rewards. What do these texts share? Comic visions of hell, and worlds in which women triumph. Faust is a failure, Mephisto scares no one, and Olga's men are strictly appendages. "Olga's House of Shame" is a trashy thriller. Stein loved crime stories, too. Every country had its own kind of crime, she said, and it depended a lot on what kinds of houses people lived in. The head of the House of Wooster is Elizabeth LeCompte, and its leading actor is Kate Valk. Demonic virtuosity is the company rule. Texts and genres from radically different worlds must learn to cohabit: "Our Town" and the vaudeville routines of Pigmeat Markham; the West Indian jungle of "The Emperor Jones" and Asian costumes and dance. The stage always tends to look like an obstacle course, filled with ramps and platforms. Video cameras make a play look like a surveillance operation. We watch the actors in the flesh and on camera; they react to live bodies and to images. Everything is vehement and precise: rows of glittering lights, silent film chases, mime and acrobatics. Microphones alter the actors' voices. Playing Faust, Marguerite Ida/Helena Annabel, and Elaine, Ms. Valk sounds whispery yet driven. It's as if we were eavesdropping inside her head. The witty and tender songwriter Suzzy Roche turns villainess here, playing Mephisto and Olga with horns and a miniskirt. Her tones are acidic; this is the voice of a cruel tease. Both women get Stein-speak perfectly. Her rhythms must sound inevitable or we get rattled and start hunting for the logic of everyday speech. Stein's popularity is almost soaring now. In June, the Encompass New Opera Theater will present three operas: by Ned Rorem, Virgil Thomson and a new work by William Banfield and Karren Alenier based on Stein's life. Feminist scholars began hauling her up from the canon's storeroom in the 1970's, alongside Edith Wharton, Willa Cather and Zora Neale Hurston. Women writers who have been consigned to the storeroom are rarely taught. They are referred to in lectures about their male contemporaries. Smart-looking paperbacks are readily available, while anthologies proliferate. Stein knew this would happen. We are all modernists, she told a young audience in the 1930's; the act of living demands it, but art doesn't. Art lets us indulge our need to live at least 40 years behind the times, Stein declared, adding: "The world can accept me now because there is, coming out of your generation, something they don't like, and therefore they can accept me because I am sufficiently past in having been contemporary. So they don't have to dislike me." From marcus Tue Mar 15 09:15:45 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:15:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Tan Lin In-Reply-To: <4235F99E.4090008@ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: <4236A7C1.25582.5F5A87@localhost> > >>"The canon is an idealistic maze and should ideally prefigure ... > >>most of all, to mid- to > >>late-'70s disco with its emphasis on monotonous rhythms, its > >>superficiality, and its blatantly unsubtle sexual innuendoes. ... > >>Disposability, superficiality and ephererality rule. ...Poetry > >>should be like that. It should not be permanent, it > >>should be very impermanent. It should aspire to the interminably > >>pure moment of an interlude." The aesthetic of the whatever generation. Marcus From amyhappens Tue Mar 15 09:26:54 2005 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:26:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Stein star rising? In-Reply-To: <002c01c52962$9ef7c920$bccaed04@computer> Message-ID: <20050315142654.73601.qmail@web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks very much for posting this -- I saw it years ago and loved it - enough to see it three times. I've been pimping it out to everyone within the close and distant distance ... --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > > FYRP > > Hal > > ===== > > The New York Times > March 15, 2005 > CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK > The Mother of Us All (All of Us Modernists) > By MARGO JEFFERSON From Kent.Johnson Tue Mar 15 09:39:26 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:39:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Campus watch/ American Thinker Message-ID: Info for Campus Watch and American Thinker matter at the good ship Hotel Point: http://hotelpoint.blogspot.com/ From bardo Tue Mar 15 10:04:37 2005 From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:04:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness References: <023c01c52916$c0e04630$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <021e01c5291d$d86f2440$3a95c044@MULDER> <004c01c5295b$80299a20$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <008401c52970$4e716f20$3a95c044@MULDER> Bob, I didn't ask David why he thought the article worth reading because he said why: "Suitably inconclusive, occasionally cranky, and well worth reading." I read the piece; it lived up to his first two judgments, though I haven't decided whether to regard it as "well worth reading" until I reflect more on his "suitably." It seems to suggest that a Keatsian negative capability ought to comprise a permanent feature of the discussion of "greatness." (Does that sound right, David?) When you characterize the piece as "trivial crap," I could think of no similar benchmark for triviality, so I asked you why you consider it so. I suppose one demands explanations more often from hostile critics because the censorious tend to become notorious, drawing attention away from the objects vilified and upon themselves, whereas the friendly critic steps out of the way, inviting contemplation of the work. Your idea that longevity = importance = greatness reminds me of the (George Carlin?) line: "how important does someone have to be for a murder to become an assassination?" -- basically, a sorites argument, and one that denies anyone the brief to attribute greatness (whatever that means, and longevity/importance alone might not adequately define it) to a contemporary or near-contemporary. Did you mean that? Have you any indices for predicting greatness? (One of your favorite indices of importance--innovation--obviously won't do if you keep longevity in as a criterion.) You say that "no one who is not insanely driven by . . . an aim to be a great poet . . . will ever compose an important body of work." When you further say that "This is not to say that a great poet must always struggle to produce great work," though, you seem to undercut the "insanely driven" part of your argument. If you consider the subject "a yawn," why bother circumscribing it (I hesitate to say that you've defined it, either) with such an extreme yet self-consuming requirement? ~ Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:35 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness >> Why, Bob? > > The subject is a yawn, the "ideas" put forth cliched and incredibly > constricted. No real attempt to define terms. > The word-to-thought ratio is high. Plus the fact that the people involved > struck me (yes, subjectively) as being near-maximally distant from any > internal knowledge of what greatness by any definition would be. Sheep > discussing whether wanting to be a lion is a good thing or not. > > Now tell me, Dan, why you didn't ask David why he thought the article > worth reading? Why are hostile critics so much more often asked to defend > their positions than friendly ones? > > My opinion would have been shorter: no one who is not insanely driven by, > among other things, an aim to be a great poet, by which I mean simply a > poet who composes poetry as lasting as, say, Milton's, will ever compose > an important body of work. I would not deny such persons their fun, and > would certainly agree that sometimes they can produce nice work, perhaps > even one or two lasting pieces, but they won't do more. This is not to > say that a great poet must always struggle to produce great work, or that > anyone who does that will produce great work, as I should not have to say. > > --Bob G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ershadmz Tue Mar 15 10:34:01 2005 From: ershadmz (ershad mazumder) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:34:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Stone And The Emperor Message-ID: <20050315153401.76420.qmail@web60309.mail.yahoo.com> Every stairs of the palace asking the emperor Where are your going your lord The replied,I counting stairs of my palace How much Shall I have to go down How much time it will take for me to reach the destination The stairs of the palace replied Going down is so easy you need not to count any stairs You destiny will take you to the deep down. This stairs took you to the peak of your glory Now its your time to go deep down This is the game of life and ups and down But nobody understands it when they are on the peak. Oh my lord, my dearest emperor You are now alone,there is none to accompany you There is none to smile at you to wish you goodbye Look at this tomb of your predecessors. Here are some stones only Make people belief to see the lost glory of a powerfull emperor. Stones have more value than the palace and the emperor You may be a very ordinary man But do not forget your destiny stairs of life. *Copyright By Ershad Mazumder --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Mar 15 10:57:07 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:57:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness References: <023c01c52916$c0e04630$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><021e01c5291d$d86f2440$3a95c044@MULDER><004c01c5295b$80299a20$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <008401c52970$4e716f20$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <00d801c52977$a4688f10$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob, > > I didn't ask David why he thought the article worth reading because he > said why: "Suitably inconclusive, occasionally cranky, and well worth > reading." I read the piece; it lived up to his first two judgments, though > I haven't decided whether to regard it as "well worth reading" until I > reflect more on his "suitably." Feels like you're dodging (quite well), Dan. > It seems to suggest that a Keatsian negative capability ought to comprise > a permanent feature of the discussion of "greatness." (Does that sound > right, David?) When you characterize the piece as "trivial crap," I could > think of no similar benchmark for triviality, so I asked you why you > consider it so. What was your benchmark of "well worth reading?" David expressed a positive opinion, as he always does, with squirm room, I then expressed my opposite opinion, unacademically forthrightly. >I suppose one demands explanations more often from hostile critics because >the censorious tend to become notorious, drawing attention away from the >objects vilified and upon themselves, whereas the friendly critic steps out >of the way, inviting contemplation of the work. That's silly. David gave us "inconclusive," "cranky" and "well-worth reading"; I countered with "trivial," "not worth reading." His extra adjective invites contemplation of the work, mine doesn't? I wouldn't say either invited contemplation of the work. I'd say the two posts would get people who think like David does, or believe they do, to read the article, and people who think like I do, or believe they do, not to. By "hostile critics," the context of my statement ought to have made you realize I was talking about people like David and I who were making brief comments, not actual critics. A good critic, of course, would back up his assertions, and present supporting quotations, and hope to persuade his readers to "contemplate" whatever work it is he's discussing. > Your idea that longevity = importance = greatness reminds me of the > (George Carlin?) line: "how important does someone have to be for a murder > to become an assassination?" -- basically, a sorites argument, and one > that denies anyone the brief to attribute greatness (whatever that means, Whatever that means to me I stated. > and longevity/importance alone might not adequately define it) to a > contemporary or near-contemporary. Did you mean that? Yes. > Have you any indices for predicting greatness? You understand, I hope, that we're into an entirely new subject. (One of your favorite indices > of importance--innovation--obviously won't do if you keep longevity in as > a criterion.) Right. That's why I've also emphasized the difference between effectiveness as an artist and importance as an artist. Effectiveness equals greatness as I define greatness here. Importance is different. > You say that "no one who is not insanely driven by . . . an aim to be a > great poet . . . will ever compose an important body of work." When you > further say that "This is not to say that a great poet must always > struggle to produce great work," though, you seem to undercut the > "insanely driven" part of your argument. I didn't say "insanely driven 24 hours a day." > If you consider the subject "a yawn," why bother circumscribing it (I > hesitate to say that you've defined it, either) with such an extreme yet > self-consuming requirement? I was showing why it was a yawn by saying all that needed to be said about it in my one paragraph. Now I'm saying more to prove that my one paragraph was sufficient. --Bob From jkok Tue Mar 15 11:02:37 2005 From: jkok (Jane Kerrigan O'Keefe) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:02:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert, Language Poet In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0503141920fd9a5a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a0503141920fd9a5a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1110902557.4237071db8a80@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> A few weeks ago, I sat down with Gilbert to show him a poem I had written at the suggestion of Parcelli, who had said something like, write a poem without pronouns. Neither the adjective "I" or "she" appearred in a poem that, I felt, was as true to me and my vision of things as anything I had ever written. Go figure. I more or less apprenticed with Gilbert for a couple of years, then decided that I needed to start pulling away, so that I didn't seal my fate as someone who spent her life trying to write a Jack Gilbert poem. (He was rather shocked, but hey...) And, I am still interested in his opinion. So when I read him this poem I was amazed to hear him say it was one of the best poems he had heard from me. We had a conversation about types of poems one can write. We talked about the kind of poem that tells the story directly, and the kind of poem that pushes language itself (I quoted to him his own line, "I say moon is horses in the tempered dark...") His response was simple. He said, "I like both." He has had way too much to report to ever be a strict language poet. Visions that are USABLE. I think of the book that just came out. It is utterly intense, a book that could not have been written by a man less than his age. Yes, the occasional bragging, a little showing off here and there. Nobody's perfect... But a book not written by one of these aging giants with a fat pension and tenure who is basking in fame and cranking out one mildish book after another for the remainder. So Silliman's use of the word "tragedy" in regard to Gilbert, is, not hilarious but kind of silly. Quoting Jeff Newberry : > Silliman here uses tactics that I'm sure he'd crucify another writer for > using. > > What if I attacked a poet like Robin Blaser for not being a narrative > poet? What if I said that --- is a poor poet because he was "almost" > a narrative poet? Heck, I'll go a step further. I'll argue that > Garrett Hongo is a poor poet because he's rejected Language poetry. > This logic makes no sense. Well of course it doesn't. > > Silliman also seems to believe that no other type of poetry should > exist. His aesthetic seems based on political posturing, not artistic > merit. > > I suppose that in Silliman's eyes, I'm a failure, as well. That's > fine, and quite frankly, I don't give a damn. Maybe my "romantic > posturing" looks silly (I'm 30). I really don't see why anyone would > attach themselves to a label such as "Language poet," anyway. I like > to write about all kinds of things, and sometimes I use narrative and > sometimes I use lyric and sometimes I rhyme (though not very often) > and sometimes I write about the limitations of langauge itself. I > don't really care to have a label attached to my work. And I can > think of any poet that I admire who does. > > When labels get in the way of writing, you're right back there at 16 > years of age, smoking a cigarette, wearing a lot of black, and > thinking that Jim Morrison is the end-all-be-all of American verse. > You never write, of course, but you call yourself a writer. You're > artistic. You're a POET. > > Sheesh. > > Jeff Newberry > > > On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:38:41 -0600, David Graham wrote: > > Up now at Ron Silliman's blog is a rather fascinating entry on Jack > Gilbert. > > > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > > > Gilbert is not, in fact, a language poet--but Ron Silliman's point seems > to > > be that he could have been, if he'd just pushed a bit further and not been > > marked with "the scar of sincerity." > > > > Silliman mentions that Gilbert's been "vituperative" in his statements > about > > language poetry, so I imagine this news will not be particularly welcome > to > > the poet. I'd be interested to learn what those who know Gilbert's work > > better than I do think of Silliman's argument, which I found fairly > > unconvincing but, as always, worth some pondering. > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad Tue Mar 15 11:06:54 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:06:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert, Language Poet References: <731bb17a0503141920fd9a5a1@mail.gmail.com> <1110902557.4237071db8a80@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: <000d01c52979$038f45f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Jane - what a wonderful letter about a wonderful teacher. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Kerrigan O'Keefe" To: "Jeff Newberry" ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert, Language Poet >A few weeks ago, I sat down with Gilbert to show him a poem I had written >at > the suggestion of Parcelli, who had said something like, write a poem > without > pronouns. Neither the adjective "I" or "she" appearred in a poem that, I > felt, > was as true to me and my vision of things as anything I had ever written. > Go > figure. > > I more or less apprenticed with Gilbert for a couple of years, then > decided > that I needed to start pulling away, so that I didn't seal my fate as > someone > who spent her life trying to write a Jack Gilbert poem. (He was rather > shocked, but hey...) And, I am still interested in his opinion. So when > I > read him this poem I was amazed to hear him say it was one of the best > poems he > had heard from me. We had a conversation about types of poems one can > write. > We talked about the kind of poem that tells the story directly, and the > kind of > poem that pushes language itself (I quoted to him his own line, "I say > moon is > horses in the tempered dark...") > > His response was simple. He said, "I like both." > > He has had way too much to report to ever be a strict language poet. > Visions > that are USABLE. > > I think of the book that just came out. It is utterly intense, a book > that > could not have been written by a man less than his age. Yes, the > occasional > bragging, a little showing off here and there. Nobody's perfect... But a > book > not written by one of these aging giants with a fat pension and tenure who > is > basking in fame and cranking out one mildish book after another for the > remainder. So Silliman's use of the word "tragedy" in regard to Gilbert, > is, > not hilarious but kind of silly. > > > > > > Quoting Jeff Newberry : > >> Silliman here uses tactics that I'm sure he'd crucify another writer for >> using. >> >> What if I attacked a poet like Robin Blaser for not being a narrative >> poet? What if I said that --- is a poor poet because he was "almost" >> a narrative poet? Heck, I'll go a step further. I'll argue that >> Garrett Hongo is a poor poet because he's rejected Language poetry. >> This logic makes no sense. Well of course it doesn't. >> >> Silliman also seems to believe that no other type of poetry should >> exist. His aesthetic seems based on political posturing, not artistic >> merit. >> >> I suppose that in Silliman's eyes, I'm a failure, as well. That's >> fine, and quite frankly, I don't give a damn. Maybe my "romantic >> posturing" looks silly (I'm 30). I really don't see why anyone would >> attach themselves to a label such as "Language poet," anyway. I like >> to write about all kinds of things, and sometimes I use narrative and >> sometimes I use lyric and sometimes I rhyme (though not very often) >> and sometimes I write about the limitations of langauge itself. I >> don't really care to have a label attached to my work. And I can >> think of any poet that I admire who does. >> >> When labels get in the way of writing, you're right back there at 16 >> years of age, smoking a cigarette, wearing a lot of black, and >> thinking that Jim Morrison is the end-all-be-all of American verse. >> You never write, of course, but you call yourself a writer. You're >> artistic. You're a POET. >> >> Sheesh. >> >> Jeff Newberry >> >> >> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:38:41 -0600, David Graham >> wrote: >> > Up now at Ron Silliman's blog is a rather fascinating entry on Jack >> Gilbert. >> > >> > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ >> > >> > Gilbert is not, in fact, a language poet--but Ron Silliman's point >> > seems >> to >> > be that he could have been, if he'd just pushed a bit further and not >> > been >> > marked with "the scar of sincerity." >> > >> > Silliman mentions that Gilbert's been "vituperative" in his statements >> about >> > language poetry, so I imagine this news will not be particularly >> > welcome >> to >> > the poet. I'd be interested to learn what those who know Gilbert's >> > work >> > better than I do think of Silliman's argument, which I found fairly >> > unconvincing but, as always, worth some pondering. >> > >> > ==================================================== >> > David Graham >> > grahamd at ripon.edu >> > Home Page: >> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> > Poetry Library: >> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> > ==================================================== >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> >> >> -- >> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz >> >> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman Tue Mar 15 11:11:27 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:11:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Stein star rising? References: <002c01c52962$9ef7c920$bccaed04@computer> Message-ID: <00f901c52979$a4f88820$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> When is Ashbery, or anyone else, going to tell us what makes Stein's novel worth reading--in detail, and with supporting quotations? Her work, for me, is like Nostradamus's: a wonderful playground for those who prefer to hunt for schizgruencies to details of whatever dream world they're living in than to read responsibly, but tedious for the rest of us. --Bob G. From jkok Tue Mar 15 11:20:34 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:20:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Stein star rising? In-Reply-To: <00f901c52979$a4f88820$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <002c01c52962$9ef7c920$bccaed04@computer> <00f901c52979$a4f88820$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Bob, could you say more about what you mean by "reading responsibly"? This question in unfreighted. I wouldn't dream of stepping in the ring with you guys... From grahamd Tue Mar 15 12:25:11 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:25:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness In-Reply-To: <008401c52970$4e716f20$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: on 3/15/05 9:04 AM, Daniel Zimmerman at bardo at optonline.net wrote: > "Suitably inconclusive, occasionally cranky, and well worth reading." I > read the piece; it lived up to his first two judgments, though I haven't > decided whether to regard it as "well worth reading" until I reflect more on > his "suitably." It seems to suggest that a Keatsian negative capability > ought to comprise a permanent feature of the discussion of "greatness." > (Does that sound right, David?) Nicely put, Dan. A few further thoughts. Seems to me that, in pondering the perennial imponderables, like love, greatness, truth, etc., negative capability is simply good sense. When someone tells me they've solved love or defined greatness, well, I reach for my wallet. Still, I think there's much value in the discussion--especially if one doesn't get trapped in cul de sacs of term-defining or Yeatsean eternal systems of thought. As Donald Hall once remarked, there are no important things that do not need to be continually re-learned. If we don't reflect on what a great poem might be, or why one might wish or not wish to achieve one, what's the point of poetic aspiration? Well, some will say there *is* no point, I suppose. That it's all a lovely or at least amusing game. I've never been happy with that kind of relativism--if it's all a game, then I say the hell with it (tennis is more fun, and better for the heart). Nonetheless, some degree of relativism is necessary, or else you're just a simpleton. The symposium on Ambition & Greatness in *Poetry*, however frustratingly truncated, cranky, inconclusive, superficial, and abstract, accomplishes at least a couple things. One is that it highlights the ongoing, wholly unresolved and maybe unresolvable tension between Arnoldian Touchstones and a looser, more culturally complex aesthetic--a tension that's been in high gear for at least a century now, it seems to me. Jury's still out, as far as I can tell, as the symposium would appear to illustrate nicely. To put it in more concrete terms, I remain interested in questions such as whether "the grand style" will survive our era; whether Bishop's or Larkin's relatively narrow-ranged poems will be admitted by future eras into the realm of "greatness"; and whether the demotic explosion in American poetry over the past half century has forever destroyed the very idea of "greatness" as any kind of a universal value. One final thought--I did not mean to suggest with the word "cranky" to belittle the discussion. I was quoting Daisy Fried, in fact, who applies the word to herself, and who for my taste is quite enjoyably cranky in her rejection of poorly examined Arnoldian platitudes. She also says a a wonderful thing that ought to be a motto for discussions (and meta-discussions) of poetry, I feel: "If anything blunts aesthetic response, it's when poetry is burdened with irrelevant requirements." As much as a I deeply disagree with Daisy on some points, I think she's right about that. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From MillB Tue Mar 15 12:53:09 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:53:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness Message-ID: <191.3b0fbf31.2f687b05@aol.com> I've also heard that to achieve greatness, a person cannot be too "grounded" in reality. . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Tue Mar 15 13:41:48 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:41:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Stein star rising? In-Reply-To: <00f901c52979$a4f88820$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: { When is Ashbery, or anyone else, going to tell us what makes Stein's novel { worth reading--in detail, and with supporting quotations? Her work, for me, { is like Nostradamus's: a wonderful playground for those who prefer to hunt { for schizgruencies to details of whatever dream world they're living in than { to read responsibly, but tedious for the rest of us. { { --Bob G. Bob, you ought to try Wayne Koestenbaum's piece called "Stein is Nice." You'll find it in his collection of essays called *Cleavage* [New York: Ballantine Books, 2000]. I'm sure you can find it around somewhere. Hal Today's Special The Sonnet Project www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From Kent.Johnson Tue Mar 15 14:49:25 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:49:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings Message-ID: I sent this to Tony Robinson, host of one of my favorite poetry blogs, hoping he might post it and that some suggestions might ensue in his comments box. What the heck, I'll share it here, as well. I'm desperate. * Tony, Feel free, should you wish, to post the below, as it may result in some ideas that could help me next week. But if you'd rather not, I won't mind at all, since you already posted that other letter. I could use the help, though... Kent * I'm giving some readings next week in a handful of different cities out east. I am 6 foot, approx. 420 lbs. and in the early stages of the kind of receding hairline which (if things keep going the way they have been going) will leave me with patches of hair on the sides of my head and a thin tomahawk all the way down the middle. I am not experienced at readings and on top of that suffer from incredible social anxiety and a debilitating lack of self-confidence. I was wondering if you or any of the readers of Geneva Convention (or you AND any readers of the Geneva Convention) might have supportive advice on 1) What to wear and 2) What to say before I start to read my poems. I have been standing in front of my body-length mirror for the past number of days, trying out various lines, but they sound so incredibly stupid and artificial when I say them and then I start to get this feeling of panic. Maybe this sounds funny to some of you, but it's frankly quite distressing. Also, I am afraid of flying. Any tips on how to relax on planes would be appreciated, as well. Thank you very much. Kent From elemenope Tue Mar 15 02:31:01 2005 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:31:01 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] schizgruencies In-Reply-To: <200503151700.j2FH030t028188@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200503151700.j2FH030t028188@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > a wonderful playground for those who prefer to hunt >for >s c h i z g r u e n c i e s >to details of whatever dream world they're living in > than >to read responsibly, > but tedious for the rest of us. > >--Bob G. > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbyrne Tue Mar 15 16:39:47 2005 From: mbyrne (Mairead Byrne) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:39:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings Message-ID: Dear Kent, I'm sorry to hear of your predicament. On the bright side, at least you're getting readings. I'd no idea you were such a heavy guy, you don't look it. Anyway enough chit-chat. I thought you might like to borrow this poem, it's a good one to start with as it gets you going before you know you're going. I have others for other parts of the reading if you're interested. Mairead PREAMBLE Okay Okay Okay [DEEP BREATH] Whoooooo Is it okay? Is that okay? [TAP MIKE] [TAP MIKE} Okay? [SHUFFLE PAGES & START WALKING AWAY WITH THEM] [TURN BACK TO AUDIENCE] [RETREAT SOME] [TURN TOWARD AUDIENCE BLINKING & STILL SHUFFLING & FACIAL EXPRESSION How did I get here?] Uh hi William [HUGE BREATH MORE HUNTING THROUGH PAGES] [DEEP BREATH] Okay. Mair?ad Byrne Assistant Professor of English Rhode Island School of Design Providence, RI 02903 www.wildhoneypress.com www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> Kent.Johnson at highland.edu 03/15/05 2:49 PM >>> I sent this to Tony Robinson, host of one of my favorite poetry blogs, hoping he might post it and that some suggestions might ensue in his comments box. What the heck, I'll share it here, as well. I'm desperate. * Tony, Feel free, should you wish, to post the below, as it may result in some ideas that could help me next week. But if you'd rather not, I won't mind at all, since you already posted that other letter. I could use the help, though... Kent * I'm giving some readings next week in a handful of different cities out east. I am 6 foot, approx. 420 lbs. and in the early stages of the kind of receding hairline which (if things keep going the way they have been going) will leave me with patches of hair on the sides of my head and a thin tomahawk all the way down the middle. I am not experienced at readings and on top of that suffer from incredible social anxiety and a debilitating lack of self-confidence. I was wondering if you or any of the readers of Geneva Convention (or you AND any readers of the Geneva Convention) might have supportive advice on 1) What to wear and 2) What to say before I start to read my poems. I have been standing in front of my body-length mirror for the past number of days, trying out various lines, but they sound so incredibly stupid and artificial when I say them and then I start to get this feeling of panic. Maybe this sounds funny to some of you, but it's frankly quite distressing. Also, I am afraid of flying. Any tips on how to relax on planes would be appreciated, as well. Thank you very much. Kent _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus Tue Mar 15 16:47:40 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:47:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <423711AC.36.143624E@localhost> I've seen a lot of guys read that poem of yours, Mairead! You should get royalties! Marcus On 15 Mar 2005 at 16:39, Mairead Byrne wrote: > Dear Kent, > > I'm sorry to hear of your predicament. On the bright side, at least > you're getting readings. I'd no idea you were such a heavy guy, you > don't look it. Anyway enough chit-chat. I thought you might like to > borrow this poem, it's a good one to start with as it gets you going > before you know you're going. I have others for other parts of the > reading if you're interested. > > Mairead > > > > PREAMBLE > > Okay > Okay > Okay > > [DEEP BREATH] > Whoooooo > > Is it okay? > Is that okay? > > [TAP MIKE] > [TAP MIKE} > > Okay? > > [SHUFFLE PAGES & START WALKING AWAY WITH THEM] > [TURN BACK TO AUDIENCE] > [RETREAT SOME] > > [TURN TOWARD AUDIENCE BLINKING & STILL SHUFFLING & FACIAL EXPRESSION > How did I get here?] > > Uh hi William > [HUGE BREATH MORE HUNTING THROUGH PAGES] > > [DEEP BREATH] > > Okay. > > > > > Mair?ad Byrne > Assistant Professor of English > Rhode Island School of Design > Providence, RI 02903 > www.wildhoneypress.com > www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com > >>> Kent.Johnson at highland.edu 03/15/05 2:49 PM >>> > I sent this to Tony Robinson, host of one of my favorite poetry blogs, > hoping he might post it and that some suggestions might ensue in his > comments box. What the heck, I'll share it here, as well. I'm > desperate. > > * > > Tony, > > Feel free, should you wish, to post the below, as it may result in > some ideas that could help me next week. But if you'd rather not, I > won't mind at all, since you already posted that other letter. I could > use the help, though... > Kent > > * > > I'm giving some readings next week in a handful of different cities > out east. I am 6 foot, approx. 420 lbs. and in the early stages of the > kind of receding hairline which (if things keep going the way they > have been going) will leave me with patches of hair on the sides of my > head and a thin tomahawk all the way down the middle. I am not > experienced at readings and on top of that suffer from incredible > social anxiety and a debilitating lack of self-confidence. I was > wondering if you or any of the readers of Geneva Convention (or you > AND any readers of the Geneva Convention) might have supportive advice > on 1) What to wear and 2) What to say before I start to read my poems. > I have been standing in front of my body-length mirror for the past > number of days, trying out various lines, but they sound so incredibly > stupid and artificial when I say them and then I start to get this > feeling of panic. Maybe this sounds funny to some of you, but it's > frankly quite distressing. Also, I am afraid of flying. Any tips on > how to relax on planes would be appreciated, as well. > > Thank you very much. > > Kent > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd Tue Mar 15 16:56:04 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:56:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very good advice here. I've always been fond, also, of one of Robert Benchley's techniques. He simply walked up to the microphone, paused, then yelled "Surprise!" and sat down. Hard to top that, unless of course you perform your entire reading in mime, pausing occasionally to wander over by the microphone to clear your throat. . . . on 3/15/05 3:39 PM, Mairead Byrne at mbyrne at risd.edu wrote: > Dear Kent, > > I'm sorry to hear of your predicament. On the bright side, at least you're > getting readings. I'd no idea you were such a heavy guy, you don't look it. > Anyway enough chit-chat. I thought you might like to borrow this poem, it's a > good one to start with as it gets you going before you know you're going. I > have others for other parts of the reading if you're interested. > > Mairead > > > > PREAMBLE > > Okay > Okay > Okay > > [DEEP BREATH] > Whoooooo > > Is it okay? > Is that okay? > > [TAP MIKE] > [TAP MIKE} > > Okay? > > [SHUFFLE PAGES & START WALKING AWAY WITH THEM] > [TURN BACK TO AUDIENCE] > [RETREAT SOME] > > [TURN TOWARD AUDIENCE BLINKING & STILL SHUFFLING & FACIAL EXPRESSION How did I > get here?] > > Uh hi William > [HUGE BREATH MORE HUNTING THROUGH PAGES] > > [DEEP BREATH] > > Okay. > > > > > Mair?ad Byrne ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From MillB Tue Mar 15 17:06:09 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:06:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings Message-ID: <9e.225e546b.2f68b651@aol.com> Dear Kent. Hum...advice. The reading tour sounds great! Much luck and success to you. Here's my own personal "take" on the concerns you have. Of course, I cannot guarantee that my tips will work for you, but they have helped me (in the past). 1) What to wear? First off, everyone has SOME thing that they are afraid of or dislike or get squeamish about in front of an audience. For me, there are a couple things: one, for a girl, especially, I sweat TONS, so I always have to make sure that I wear black, black and more black. Any other color and within seconds there are full moons of dark stains under my arms and, unless, I want to stand like an Irish dancer (with my arms firmly planted at my side), I need to take special precautions. Along those lines, I like to wear funky, poet-like things, and especially comfortable flat shoes or boots (because when I get nervous I also tend to trip--more so if I am in high heels). Bottom line, for me, is that I wear what I am MOST comfortable in because if I am worried about a neckline or a too-tight skirt, I concentrate on that and really "mess things up." I have friends who adopt a "signature hat" or a special scarf. A magical item that they always wear for good luck or as a way to feel comfortable. A teacher I knew used reading glasses as a prop. He did not need them, just felt better having a "prop" to gesture with and to hold onto or hide behind. 2) What to say before I start to read my poems. I write notes in the margins, detailing the circumstances behind when I wrote the work. Not an explanation OF the work or what it means, but just--"I wrote this when I was studying in Prague and in one day I visited an archeological dig, a bookstore and a graveyard." Thus, describing the circumstance helps set the readers in the right "mode," and it also helps me relax. If there are foreign words or weird personal phrases or off places, I "may" explain them before I read the poem. I don't get into a teacher-student situation, but, say, in one of my jazz poems, I mention the phrase "resolving the seventh," so I explain briefly what that is. This technique also helps me relax. I do not "explain away" every poem. Some I just plain read. But, early in the reading, I like to offer a little more chat and having something loosely scripted helps me get over my nervousness. Many poets begin with a poem by another poet, and I have also done that (depending upon the audience). Dylan Thomas used to open his readings by reciting Yeats (it was reported that on occasion he JUST read poems by other people, but I cannot verify that). 3) How to relax on planes? The more articles I can take with me from home, the more at home I feel when I fly. For example, I bring my own music and listen to CDs during the flight. If it's a long flight and I have my laptop, I my watch a dvd...this give me a sense of controlling my environment--instead of relying on what the airline does or does not provide. I also pack my own lunch (hard boiled eggs, carrot sticks, sandwich, pretzels). This also makes me feel better. And, I always, always bring a HUGE bottle of water to sip on. There is this powder called Emergen "C" that I mix with the water to give me vitamins and energy (right before the plane lands) that perks me up, so does washing my face. When I travel with my husband, we bring a travel Scrabble game and a deck of cards. Before we know it, the plane has landed... Good luck with your readings! Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Tue Mar 15 17:15:40 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:15:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings References: Message-ID: <009301c529ac$884d53d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Where in the east? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings >I sent this to Tony Robinson, host of one of my favorite poetry blogs, > hoping he might post it and that some suggestions might ensue in his > comments box. What the heck, I'll share it here, as well. I'm > desperate. > > * > > Tony, > > Feel free, should you wish, to post the below, as it may result in some > ideas that could help me next week. But if you'd rather not, I won't > mind at all, since you already posted that other letter. I could use the > help, though... > Kent > > * > > I'm giving some readings next week in a handful of different cities out > east. I am 6 foot, approx. 420 lbs. and in the early stages of the kind > of receding hairline which (if things keep going the way they have been > going) will leave me with patches of hair on the sides of my head and a > thin tomahawk all the way down the middle. I am not experienced at > readings and on top of that suffer from incredible social anxiety and a > debilitating lack of self-confidence. I was wondering if you or any of > the readers of Geneva Convention (or you AND any readers of the Geneva > Convention) might have supportive advice on 1) What to wear and 2) What > to say before I start to read my poems. I have been standing in front of > my body-length mirror for the past number of days, trying out various > lines, but they sound so incredibly stupid and artificial when I say > them and then I start to get this feeling of panic. Maybe this sounds > funny to some of you, but it's frankly quite distressing. Also, I am > afraid of flying. Any tips on how to relax on planes would be > appreciated, as well. > > Thank you very much. > > Kent > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jvcervantes Tue Mar 15 17:52:40 2005 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:52:40 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] schizgruencies Message-ID: <22639084.1110927160992.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> What? Where? - Jim -----Original Message----- From: ELEMENOPE Productions Sent: Mar 15, 2005 12:31 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] schizgruencies > a wonderful playground for those who prefer to hunt >for >s c h i z g r u e n c i e s >to details of whatever dream world they're living in > than >to read responsibly, > but tedious for the rest of us. > >--Bob G. > -- "The new development will only last for one week." From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 15 18:27:43 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:27:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings In-Reply-To: <009301c529ac$884d53d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <009301c529ac$884d53d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <731bb17a050315152729272f5f@mail.gmail.com> I always read a couple of poems by another poet before I read, to "invoke the muse," I always say. No one ever laughs. At my last reading, I read two hilarious poems from B.H. Fairchild's *Early Occult Memory Systems of the Lower Midwest.* I then followed with seven or eight very serious poems of my own, poems that addressed, among other things, death, spirtiuality, religion, God, fathers/sons, childhood, etc. Huge mistake. I got belly laughs for Fairchild. I got silence for mine. Wierd, too, the audience consisted mainly of adults in their 50s and 60s, not a kid in the house. They, however, cackled at Fairchild's poem about Elton Wayne Showalter. (I'll post it when I get home tonight. Or, if someone else can . . . ) So, my new rule is to pick poems that are on a similar theme or in a similar mode. Call me a stupid populist (and many will), but if someone comes to a poetry reading of mine, I want them to know where I'm coming from. Reading the poetry of another helps to introduce both myself and the poet to an audience. Cheers! (or, in my case) Jeers! Jeff Newberry Mill said: > >Many poets begin with a poem by another poet, and I have also done that >(depending upon the audience). Dylan Thomas used to open his readings by >reciting Yeats (it was reported that on occasion he JUST read poems by other >people, but I cannot verify that). > > jln -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 15 18:28:29 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:28:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] schizgruencies In-Reply-To: References: <200503151700.j2FH030t028188@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <731bb17a05031515286b7c36ad@mail.gmail.com> Is this a visual poem? Jeff Newberry On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:31:01 +0800, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > a wonderful playground for those who prefer to hunt > for > > > > s c h i z g r u e n c i e s > > > > to details of whatever dream world they're living in > > > > than > to read responsibly, > > > > but tedious for the rest of us. > --Bob G. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman Tue Mar 15 18:55:04 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:55:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness References: Message-ID: <019501c529ba$699d4ea0$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > She also says a a wonderful thing that ought to be a motto for discussions > (and meta-discussions) of poetry, I feel: "If anything blunts aesthetic > response, it's when poetry is burdened with irrelevant requirements." Ah, a good reply to those of us who are calling for poetry to be burdened with irrelevant requirements. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Mar 15 18:58:39 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:58:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ambition & Greatness References: <191.3b0fbf31.2f687b05@aol.com> Message-ID: <01b001c529ba$e92180b0$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I've also heard that to achieve greatness, a person cannot be too "grounded" in reality. . . Hmmm, that can go two ways. A poet should avoid being too grounded on reality, and no poet can be more grounded in reality than he should be. Both seem true to me. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Mar 15 19:02:01 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:02:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Stein star rising? References: Message-ID: <01c901c529bb$618115c0$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > { When is Ashbery, or anyone else, going to tell us what makes Stein's > novel > { worth reading--in detail, and with supporting quotations? Her work, > for me, > { is like Nostradamus's: a wonderful playground for those who prefer to > hunt > { for schizgruencies to details of whatever dream world they're living > in than > { to read responsibly, but tedious for the rest of us. > { > { --Bob G. > > Bob, you ought to try Wayne Koestenbaum's piece called "Stein is Nice." > You'll find it in his collection of essays called *Cleavage* [New York: > Ballantine Books, 2000]. I'm sure you can find it around somewhere. > > Hal Today's Special Thanks, Hal. I've read several attempts to demonstrate that Stein was not hermetic. Only a passage on one of her poems by Stephen Pal Martin convinced me. But I will try Koestenbaum. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Mar 15 19:06:13 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:06:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] schizgruencies References: <200503151700.j2FH030t028188@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <731bb17a05031515286b7c36ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <020601c529bb$f7a954e0$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Is this a visual poem? > > Jeff Newberry No. Unless Marcus says it is. --Bob G. > On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:31:01 +0800, ELEMENOPE Productions > wrote: >> a wonderful playground for those who prefer to hunt >> for >> >> >> >> s c h i z g r u e n c i e s >> >> >> >> to details of whatever dream world they're living in >> >> >> >> than >> to read responsibly, >> >> >> >> but tedious for the rest of us. >> --Bob G. >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Kent.Johnson Tue Mar 15 22:08:16 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:08:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings Message-ID: Mairead said: >I'd no idea you were such a heavy guy, you don't look it. Mairead, thank you, but my memorable reading at RISD was two years and 225 added lbs ago. increasingly panicked, Kent From shkodrov Tue Mar 15 22:36:55 2005 From: shkodrov (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:36:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Campus watch/ American Thinker In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050316033656.34079.qmail@web54606.mail.yahoo.com> And my little letter to them... I may disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. ~ Voltaire 'We have our eye on you...so watch out' ~ Campus Watch? Dear Campus Watch, American Thinker, Alyssa A. Lappen, and Company: In a recent article ?Poetry, terror and political narcissism? published by American Thinker on March 4, 2005, Alyssa Lappen claims that ?Poetry is a window on the human soul,? and when it happens she doesn?t like the view from this particular window she wishes to seal it? Great! I can?t help but applaud this genius decision. It is as democratic and in compliance with humanity and civil liberties as it gets! Unlike Alyssa, I?ve been raised in a ?communist? country, and I claim to know about the evil of communism better than she does. I lived there and saw it for what it was. I know that I should not believe my own eyes but Alyssa?s believes, but sometimes I?m tempted to ask questions? This time it?s: ?What?s the kind of freedom you promote?? About the claim that ?Alcalay disseminates a mythical tolerance that never existed,? I would like to tell Alyssa and anybody who wants to know, that the mythical tolerance is not only possible, but was actually achieved in my country (Bulgaria) where Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in peace until the ethnical differences were seen as a good dividing tool used to manipulate and segregate at times when the public attention had to be taken away from other immediate economical or political issues? Since these questions: ?Is this really the kind of education that public, taxpayer-funded universities and parents should have to pay for? And is this the kind of poetry that will be of any interest even a year from now, much less for the ages?? were asked, and as a member of all three groups (taxpayers, students, and parents), I feel obligated to say that I need my right to decide what is good for me and my children, and I don?t need protection from ?above.? I?ll be honored to be able to be in touch with people like Ammiel Alcalay, Joe Safdie, and the like. As far as what will be read years from now? who may be so ignorant to claim to know? Why don?t just let people read and decide for themselves? Oh, you DON?T want them to read! I see ? THAT?s what I call education! Rosie Chkodrov Kent Johnson wrote: Info for Campus Watch and American Thinker matter at the good ship Hotel Point: http://hotelpoint.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Tue Mar 15 22:59:02 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:59:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Campus Watch/ American Thinker Message-ID: Now THIS is a letter. Wonderful, Rosie! Kent From tad Wed Mar 16 01:21:56 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 01:21:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] La Dame Aux Camellias Message-ID: <000801c529f0$7d646af0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> http://www.arts.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2005/03/10/bocam10.xml&sSheet=/arts/2005/03/10/bomain.html Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Wed Mar 16 01:26:56 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:26:56 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings References: Message-ID: <023c01c529f1$2798f540$06042cd9@Robin> From: "Kent Johnson" > 225 added lbs ago. Fat, mad, and dangerous to know, as Lady Caroline Lamb said when first meeting Byron. So suffer, Kent. The Wee M'Greegor. From thom424 Wed Mar 16 07:04:12 2005 From: thom424 (thom424 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:04:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] La Dame Aux Camellias In-Reply-To: <000801c529f0$7d646af0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <000801c529f0$7d646af0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <8C6F83766A79470-F84-14B4@mblk-r25.sysops.aol.com> don't you wish she would have named at least one name, offered at least one line from one poem as testimony to what she asserts? thom tammaro moorhead, mn -----Original Message----- From: The Old Mole To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 01:21:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] La Dame Aux Camellias http://www.arts.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2005/03/10/bocam10.xml&sSheet=/arts/2005/03/10/bomain.html ? ? Tad Richards www.opus40.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman Wed Mar 16 10:45:16 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:45:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYRP: Stein star rising? References: <002c01c52962$9ef7c920$bccaed04@computer><00f901c52979$a4f88820$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001f01c52a3f$279d1780$35b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob, could you say more about what you mean by "reading responsibly"? > > This question in unfreighted. I wouldn't dream of stepping in the ring > with you guys... > Gee, I dunno, Kerry. I like the questions I deal with freighted so I can get Very Irate. Seriously, all I mean by reading responsibly is going where the words take you, not going wherever you want to from them the way Derrida does, and the way I feel Perloff does with Stein. And the way nuts do with Nostrodamus (e.g., south equals France, North equals Russia, so Nostradamus predicted Napoleon's defeat at Moscow) and with Shakespeare (e.g., the passage in one of Shakespeare's sonnets in which Shakespeare says, "every word doth almost tell my name," is his way of saying his name is E. Vere, or Edward deVere, Earl of Oxford--from "EVERy"). Needless to say, what is responsible and what is ridiculously arbitrary and/or stretched is a subjective matter, but I contend that it's pretty obvious 95% of the time or more. --Bob G. From alphavil Wed Mar 16 12:00:33 2005 From: alphavil (Alphaville) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:00:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirac & Q.E.D. In-Reply-To: <001f01c52a3f$279d1780$35b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <002c01c52962$9ef7c920$bccaed04@computer><00f901c52979$a4f88820$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001f01c52a3f$279d1780$35b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42386631.3070502@ix.netcom.com> "I must say that I am very dissatisfied with the situation (QED), because this so called good theory does involve neglecting infinities which appear in its equations, neglecting them in an arbitrary way. This is just not sensible mathematics. Sensible mathematics involves neglecting a quantity when it turns out to be small - not neglecting it just because it is infinitely great and you do not want it" P.A.M. Dirac CP > From alphavil Wed Mar 16 12:13:09 2005 From: alphavil (Alphaville) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:13:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining In-Reply-To: <001f01c52a3f$279d1780$35b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <002c01c52962$9ef7c920$bccaed04@computer><00f901c52979$a4f88820$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001f01c52a3f$279d1780$35b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42386925.1050907@ix.netcom.com> A Lesson in Discovery Channel Hermeneutics In Kenya, vervet monkeys take the ground Until a sentry gives a chattering bark, Which in the simple vervet lexicon Means /snake, /and connotes/ evil/, /death /and /dark/. Or else the sentry makes a guttural sound That translates in our own more complex tongue To /hawk /or /eagle/ circling for prey, And sends the monkeys scampering. Either way, The monkeys must take action--jump or flee Across the ground or to a sheltering tree. Should one, instead, hearing a sentry speak, Decide to deconstruct the fellow's meaning And prove all urgent chattering oblique, A python's fang or hawk's cruel curving beak Will punctuate the monkey's idle preening, Ending his dissertation in mid-squeak. > From jkok Wed Mar 16 12:19:49 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:19:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dirac & Q.E.D. In-Reply-To: <42386631.3070502@ix.netcom.com> References: <002c01c52962$9ef7c920$bccaed04@computer> <00f901c52979$a4f88820$3cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001f01c52a3f$279d1780$35b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <42386631.3070502@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: "this so called good theory does involve neglecting infinities > which appear in its equations... >!!! > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From clitophon Wed Mar 16 12:43:26 2005 From: clitophon (Paul Murphy) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:43:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Todd Swift In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050316174326.72822.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> does anyone here like poetry of Todd Swift? best wishes, Paul Murphy www.theengine.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From grahamd Wed Mar 16 12:47:59 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:47:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Todd Swift In-Reply-To: <20050316174326.72822.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: on 3/16/05 11:43 AM, Paul Murphy at clitophon at yahoo.com wrote: > does anyone here like poetry of Todd Swift? > best wishes, > Paul Murphy > www.theengine.net > Why not post some, and I'll tell you. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd Wed Mar 16 12:50:01 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:50:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vallejo Message-ID: ?gape Today no one has come to inquire, nor have they wanted anything from me this afternoon. I have not seen a single cemetery flower in so happy a procession of lights. Forgive me, Lord! I have died so little! This afternoon everyone, everyone goes by without asking or begging me anything. And I do not know what it is they forget, and it is heavy in my hands like something stolen. I have come to the door, and I want to shout at everyone: -?If you miss something, here it is! Because in all the afternoons of this life, I do not know how many doors are slammed on a face, and my soul takes something that belongs to another. Today nobody has come; and today I have died so little in the afternoon! --C?sar Vallejo Translated by John Knoepfle. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From MillB Wed Mar 16 12:48:25 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:48:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Free Copper Canyon Books for Poetry Month Message-ID: <87.23852ef7.2f69cb69@aol.com> Greetings all, I got this from Copper Canyon Press and thought I would pass it along. Cheers, Mill Dear Poetry Reader, This April, in celebration of National Poetry Month, Copper Canyon Press will distribute thousands of free books to individuals and book groups who meet in their homes to read poems aloud. To participate, please request your free books no later than March 17. Orders will be shipped the first week in April. This offer is good while supplies last. Poems Aloud is a unique program that gives readers the opportunity to learn more about their favorite authors and celebrate the musicality of language with friends and family. Our goal is to inspire hundreds of book groups around the United States during the month of April. Please help us in this effort by forwarding this email to friends who love to read. To take part in this special Poems Aloud offer, click here: www.coppercanyonpress.org/poetrymonth Thanks for your consideration. As always, we wish you good reading. Sincerely, Copper Canyon Press -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lesrho Wed Mar 16 13:39:15 2005 From: lesrho (LesRho) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:39:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poetic Observation Message-ID: <002f01c52a57$752e0a00$b206e2d8@retiredud69srz> Keep A Good Attitude Too many of us really do Live lives of quiet desparation Often feeling low or blue Losing interest for life's fascination What is it that we can eschew To rise above life's frustrations? We're just one of the crew The ship of life knows no hesitation Reach down inside of you And direct your own realization Try doing things you never knew Love life with true anticipation If life doesn't fit like an old shoe Think of what you want with calculation Don't allow yourself to get in a stew Attitude can help with your expectations Les Easley SFO (lesrho at fullnet.net) A Franciscan Poet March 16, 2005 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Wed Mar 16 13:56:29 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:56:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Poetic Observation Message-ID: Thank you for sharing this good poem, Les. The "ship of life" is an interesting metaphor. Do you think we are all on the same ship, or are we each sailing on our own? Kent * Too many of us really do Live lives of quiet desparation Often feeling low or blue Losing interest for life's fascination What is it that we can eschew To rise above life's frustrations? We're just one of the crew The ship of life knows no hesitation Reach down inside of you And direct your own realization Try doing things you never knew Love life with true anticipation If life doesn't fit like an old shoe Think of what you want with calculation Don't allow yourself to get in a stew Attitude can help with your expectations Les Easley SFO (lesrho at fullnet.net) A Franciscan Poet March 16, 2005 From paul.lake Wed Mar 16 07:01:13 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:01:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining In-Reply-To: <42386925.1050907@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Monkeys have been shining a little less for me the last couple of weeks after reading about the man who was attacked by two chimps he'd come to visit. He actually brought one of them a birthday cake. Then two of them got out of their cage and attacked him. Keep in mind that a chimp is said to be stronger than a grown man. They bit off all ten of his fingers, his face (one eye, nose, lips, one cheek), his penis, one buttock and shattered one foot. If and when the poor man comes out of the critical unit and discovers the way he's been disfigured and maimed, he may wish the doctors hadn't revised him. Go get those damned monkeys, leopards and snakes! Paul Lake On 3/16/05 11:13 AM, "Alphaville" wrote: > A Lesson in Discovery Channel Hermeneutics > > > In Kenya, vervet monkeys take the ground > Until a sentry gives a chattering bark, > Which in the simple vervet lexicon > Means /snake, /and connotes/ evil/, /death /and /dark/. > Or else the sentry makes a guttural sound > That translates in our own more complex tongue > To /hawk /or /eagle/ circling for prey, > And sends the monkeys scampering. Either way, > The monkeys must take action--jump or flee > Across the ground or to a sheltering tree. > Should one, instead, hearing a sentry speak, > Decide to deconstruct the fellow's meaning > And prove all urgent chattering oblique, > A python's fang or hawk's cruel curving beak > Will punctuate the monkey's idle preening, > Ending his dissertation in mid-squeak. > > >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From gmguddi Wed Mar 16 15:02:25 2005 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:02:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More for Les In-Reply-To: <002f01c52a57$752e0a00$b206e2d8@retiredud69srz> References: <002f01c52a57$752e0a00$b206e2d8@retiredud69srz> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050316135851.02609bf0@mail.ilstu.edu> Dear Les, That's a lovely poem. I enjoy spiritually pragmatic poems. One of my favorite books is the Dhammapada, a collection of the Buddha's poems. Here is my favorite poem from that book along the same lines re keeping a good attitude: "Let us live in joy, in love among those who hate: Among those who hate, let us live in love. Let us live in joy in peace among those who struggle: among those who struggle, let us live in peace. Let us live in joy although we have nothing: let us live in joy like spirits of light." -- Siddhatta Gotama, the historical Buddha, from _The Dhammapada_, trans Juan Mascaro (and tweaked slightly by Paul Fleischman and Gabriel Gudding) -- Gabe From Garrbearr Wed Mar 16 15:05:19 2005 From: Garrbearr (Garrbearr at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:05:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Skies Message-ID: <1c2.24745c5a.2f69eb7f@aol.com> I have learned that speech is a mottled thing sky cluttering hypocrisy those who think they have it drone on to the tumbling earth that never shakes beneath them while others life their eyes only to places they'll never go to or have never been. Gary Allen University of Minnesota student March 16 2005 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spearlstein Wed Mar 16 15:11:49 2005 From: spearlstein (spearlstein at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:11:49 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings Message-ID: <031620052011.21183.4238930500059696000052BF220699973502070A9B9C049D0E0A9F9C@comcast.net> Dear Kent, I don't know if I have any words of advice, except to remember that these people want to hear you. You're the one in control. You should be proud of yourself, that you have a tour - that's talent. I know I'm a total stranger, but I think you're brave to speak in front of so many of us strangers. Chances are I'm not the only one who will feel this way; most people are afraid of public speaking. I'd suggest that you just improv. your way through it, instead of having a plan that you need to stick to - then you don't have to live up to your own high expectations, you can just let it flow instead. But, you know you better than a random stranger on this list. Just know that we aren't all skinny and beautiful; I am also overweight and I am in a movie right now, I hate having to look at myself on film, but my love of performing seems to, um, shall we say overweigh my dread of looking at myself next to all the skinny beautiful girls on my set. Don't let the beastly (I hate this word, sorta but I think it fits. oh dear, another size pun...) sizeists get you down. I'm big but I was asked to model for a woman run erotica site - I was totally uncomfortable with the idea, and figured that she didn't know how big I actually am, stammered and looked away - but my point is, it was actually nice to be asked to do it (given the women run context) and it made me realize that not everyone thinks of size as an issue, no matter how big you are. So... I hope I haven't wierded you out. If you come to Boston I'd love to hear you perform. be well, Sarah Pearlstein -------------- Original message -------------- > Mairead said: > > >I'd no idea you were such a heavy guy, you don't look it. > > Mairead, thank you, but my memorable reading at RISD was two years and > 225 added lbs ago. > > increasingly panicked, > > Kent > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Wed Mar 16 17:34:32 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:34:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who responded to my query. Sarah, that was great and appreciated advice, thank you. The reading in Boston is at MIT, part of the Analogous Reading Series. The fifth dimension directions are copied below. So if you or anyone in the Boston area can come, that would be great. It starts at 7PM. I am coming in from Providence after another engagement, so according to train schedule will be cutting it close to the starting time. But I'll be there. If the plane doesn't crash on the way back from Chapel Hill, which I am quite sure it will, I will give a report on the four readings upon my return. adieu, New Poetry. I hope not forever. Kent The building, E25-111 is right behind the Kendall Square T-stop near the corner of Main and Ames in Cambridge (Main splits off from Mass Ave). It's the Health Services building, and it's also sort of right next to the MIT Press Bookstore. If you go to the MIT website maps and look up building E25-111, you'll see what I'm talking about. The room is NOT in the Infinite Corridor or anywhere near the main entrance to the campus on Mass Ave...turn off Mass Ave down Main Street, instead. From MillB Wed Mar 16 18:46:24 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:46:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining Message-ID: <13e.f31a7e8.2f6a1f50@aol.com> Paul Lake, Here's an update and correction. St James Davis and his wife, LaDonna Davis, 64, were visiting the animal sanctuary to celebrate the birthday of a 39-year-old chimpanzee, Moe, who was taken from their home in 1999 after biting off part of a woman?s finger. The couple had brought Moe a cake and were standing outside his cage when the two young male chimps, Ollie and Buddy, attacked the man. Two other chimps, females named Susie and Bones, also escaped from the cage. They were recovered outside the sanctuary five hours later. Susie and Bones could have played a role in the attack, primate experts said.The man and his wife were visiting their own chimp (who was raised by them since the animal's infancy). They were visiting their own chimp at the animal sanctuary when two other chimps escaped from their cage and mauled St. James Davis, 62. Their own chimp was not part of the attack. We know that one of the most reliable predictors of increased male aggression is the presence of sexually receptive females,? said Jeffrey French, a psychobiologist who studies primate behavior at the University of Nebraska, Omaha. The chimps chewed off most of Davis? face, tore off his foot and attacked his limbs and genitals. Davis was transported to Loma Linda University Medical Center, where he had surgery late Thursday night. The medical center would not release any information about Davis? condition on Friday. Hospital spokeswoman Julie Smith said the family requested confidentiality. LaDonna Davis was bitten on the hand. She was released from the hospital Friday . Not that any of this matters to St James (who--if he does wake up) will be missing most of his external body parts. Just thought I would put my two cents in. Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Garrbearr Wed Mar 16 21:39:05 2005 From: Garrbearr (Garrbearr at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:39:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Believe Message-ID: It's so easy these days to be besieged by darknesses Kimberly my love but there are edges of horizons still alighted for us I believe there will still be twilights breaking into our own beatific mornings I believe in the changing of hues and the same God. Gary Allen U of Minnesota student March 16 2005 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Wed Mar 16 21:51:55 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:51:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Believe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Welcome to NewPoetry, Gary. Hope you'll stick around and join in the discussions here. But you should probably take another look at the list info page before too long: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry "The NewPoetry List has two purposes: information and discussion related to contemporary poetry. We welcome publication announcements, reviews, essays, open letters, quotes, news items, calls for submissions, and, of course, poems and your commentary. Note: You are invited to post your own poems occasionally; but please limit yourself to one poem per month." ------------------------------------- on 3/16/05 8:39 PM, Garrbearr at aol.com at Garrbearr at aol.com wrote: It's so easy these days to be besieged by darknesses Kimberly my love but there are edges of horizons still alighted for us I believe there will still be twilights breaking into our own beatific mornings I believe in the changing of hues and the same God. Gary Allen U of Minnesota student March 16 2005 ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok Thu Mar 17 09:33:04 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:33:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: mother of christ... Is this normal behavior for chimps? Not that this has to do with poetry. Or Carlo... Actually this sounds like any normal Sunday year's ago in my mother's house...sorry, just feeling a little sentimental on St. Paddy's... I am really a little tormented by this story On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Paul Lake wrote: > Monkeys have been shining a little less for me the last couple of weeks > after reading about the man who was attacked by two chimps he'd come to > visit. He actually brought one of them a birthday cake. Then two of them got > out of their cage and attacked him. Keep in mind that a chimp is said to be > stronger than a grown man. They bit off all ten of his fingers, his face > (one eye, nose, lips, one cheek), his penis, one buttock and shattered one > foot. If and when the poor man comes out of the critical unit and discovers > the way he's been disfigured and maimed, he may wish the doctors hadn't > revised him. Go get those damned monkeys, leopards and snakes! > > Paul Lake > > > > > On 3/16/05 11:13 AM, "Alphaville" wrote: > > > A Lesson in Discovery Channel Hermeneutics > > > > > > In Kenya, vervet monkeys take the ground > > Until a sentry gives a chattering bark, > > Which in the simple vervet lexicon > > Means /snake, /and connotes/ evil/, /death /and /dark/. > > Or else the sentry makes a guttural sound > > That translates in our own more complex tongue > > To /hawk /or /eagle/ circling for prey, > > And sends the monkeys scampering. Either way, > > The monkeys must take action--jump or flee > > Across the ground or to a sheltering tree. > > Should one, instead, hearing a sentry speak, > > Decide to deconstruct the fellow's meaning > > And prove all urgent chattering oblique, > > A python's fang or hawk's cruel curving beak > > Will punctuate the monkey's idle preening, > > Ending his dissertation in mid-squeak. > > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From spearlstein Thu Mar 17 10:04:24 2005 From: spearlstein (spearlstein at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:04:24 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings Message-ID: <031720051504.29839.42399C780001A09F0000748F220588617202070A9B9C049D0E0A9F9C@comcast.net> Is it today? What day is it on? I can't come tonight, (I'm really busy right now with the movie and stuff) but I'd really like to come hear you!! Do whatever you can do to have a wonderful time at it. regards, Sarah Pearlstein > Thanks to everyone who responded to my query. Sarah, that was great and > appreciated advice, thank you. The reading in Boston is at MIT, part of > the Analogous Reading Series. The fifth dimension directions are copied > below. So if you or anyone in the Boston area can come, that would be > great. It starts at 7PM. I am coming in from Providence after another > engagement, so according to train schedule will be cutting it close to > the starting time. But I'll be there. > > If the plane doesn't crash on the way back from Chapel Hill, which I am > quite sure it will, I will give a report on the four readings upon my > return. > > adieu, New Poetry. I hope not forever. > > Kent > > The building, E25-111 is right behind the Kendall Square T-stop near > the > corner of Main and Ames in Cambridge (Main splits off from Mass Ave). > It's > the Health Services building, and it's also sort of right next to the > MIT > Press Bookstore. If you go to the MIT website maps and look up building > > E25-111, you'll see what I'm talking about. The room is NOT in the > Infinite > Corridor or anywhere near the main entrance to the campus on Mass > Ave...turn off Mass Ave down Main Street, instead. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Kent.Johnson Thu Mar 17 10:05:54 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:05:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] caged chimps Message-ID: Kerry, stunned by the macabre, disfiguring violence unleashed by a pack of caged chimps upon a poor man bearing a birthday cake, remarked: >mother of christ... Is this normal behavior for chimps? No. But it certainly is for Poets. From Kent.Johnson Thu Mar 17 10:10:04 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:10:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings Message-ID: Sorry, Sarah: It's Thursday 24th, 7 PM. Hope to see you there! Good luck with the movie. Is it really erotic, as you say? I am going to read an erotic poem at the reading--a poem about Abu Ghraib. Kent From spearlstein Thu Mar 17 10:40:15 2005 From: spearlstein (spearlstein at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:40:15 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings Message-ID: <031720051540.28637.4239A4DF0000557C00006FDD220074567202070A9B9C049D0E0A9F9C@comcast.net> Hey Kent, The movie is not so, so erotic - it's a dark comedy about a cult of my lil' pony collectors in their late 20s, early 30s.... gothed out geeks who LARP (Live Action Role Play) with ponies and stuffed animals, while they are having a documentary made about them by the evil "Mega-Toy" corporation... I can't tell you the end, but if you go to "Pony Trouble" on the web you can see for yourself.. It's a bit gory, however no worse than hollywood. I am in a cabaret group, however, The Illegitimate Theatre Company, who is doing an all women's musical rendition of Titticut Follies; the documentary on a mental hospital made in the late 60s by Frederick Wiseman.... we're going for a dark, erotic Lotte Lenya effect. I am going to be away in San Diego for the Popular Culture Association's annual conference, where I'll be presenting a paper on Sylvia Plath and the movie Sylvia; why the movie failed, basically. I am actually going with a friend (who is co-writing the paper with me) who is a student of Ammiel (sp?) Alcalay at Brooklyn College; she said they read your letter in class!!! (Oy, what a small world we live in!). I haven't been able to do anything in regards to Ammiel, as life just became rather chaotic this week, but I was impressed by the courage of your convictions. In regards to Abu Ghraib, and the erotic poem... sounds interesting, I'm helping to organize the March 20th anti-war rally in Boston. Send me a poem! I'll send you one of mine. peace, Sarah Pearlstein -------------- Original message -------------- > Sorry, Sarah: > > It's Thursday 24th, 7 PM. > > Hope to see you there! > > Good luck with the movie. Is it really erotic, as you say? I am going > to read an erotic poem at the reading--a poem about Abu Ghraib. > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon Thu Mar 17 10:50:40 2005 From: clitophon (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:50:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050317155040.11381.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I think I've seen the film by Wiseman, lots of cross cut interviews with patients? Kent, how are you? I always feel that - after the Lacan letters incident - that you are a friend but I may be wrong. I thought they were hard on you, by the way. The letters were published in?? I think this journal published some of mine too, fuck! Can you give me some advice about seeking lecturing in creative writing in the US? best wishes and Hi to Sarah, Paul Murphy www.theengine.net --- spearlstein at comcast.net wrote: > > Hey Kent, > The movie is not so, so erotic - it's a > dark comedy about a cult of my lil' pony collectors > in their late 20s, early 30s.... gothed out geeks > who LARP (Live Action Role Play) with ponies and > stuffed animals, while they are having a documentary > made about them by the evil "Mega-Toy" > corporation... I can't tell you the end, but if you > go to "Pony Trouble" on the web you can see for > yourself.. It's a bit gory, however no worse than > hollywood. I am in a cabaret group, however, The > Illegitimate Theatre Company, who is doing an all > women's musical rendition of Titticut Follies; the > documentary on a mental hospital made in the late > 60s by Frederick Wiseman.... we're going for a dark, > erotic Lotte Lenya effect. I am going to be away in > San Diego for the Popular Culture Association's > annual conference, where I'll be presenting a paper > on Sylvia Plath and the movie Sylvia; why the movie > failed, basically. I am actually going with a > friend (who is co-writing the paper wit! > h me) who is a student of Ammiel (sp?) Alcalay at > Brooklyn College; she said they read your letter in > class!!! (Oy, what a small world we live in!). I > haven't been able to do anything in regards to > Ammiel, as life just became rather chaotic this > week, but I was impressed by the courage of your > convictions. In regards to Abu Ghraib, and the > erotic poem... sounds interesting, I'm helping to > organize the March 20th anti-war rally in Boston. > Send me a poem! I'll send you one of mine. > > peace, > Sarah Pearlstein > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > Sorry, Sarah: > > > > It's Thursday 24th, 7 PM. > > > > Hope to see you there! > > > > Good luck with the movie. Is it really erotic, as > you say? I am going > > to read an erotic poem at the reading--a poem > about Abu Ghraib. > > > > Kent > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From alphavil Thu Mar 17 11:08:54 2005 From: alphavil (Alphaville) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:08:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: werewolfowitz to replace werewolfensohn In-Reply-To: <20050317155040.11381.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050317155040.11381.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4239AB96.9020200@ix.netcom.com> http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ Paul "The Human Tsunami" Wolfowitz Gets Bump Up To Capo: Architect Of Iraq War To Head Boink At World Bank: Joint Chiefs "Happy To See Neo-Con Pricks Go Fuck Up Something Else.": Bush Says "Wolfowitz Should Easily 'Adjust Structurally' To The New Kind of Murderous Intent The World Bank Embodies.": "The fucker is 61 years old. If he has "an admirable passion for democratization," why ain't nobody seen it yet, Viagra needin' motherfucker." The phrase "an admirable passion for democratization" is from the comedy stylings of the editorial page at the Washington Post. BY JEJEUNE ADVERSARY Assassinated Press Hegemonics Writer March 16, 2005 Senate to Vote on Oil Drilling in Alaska Refuge: After Taking Millions in Bribes, Senate Poised To Rape Alaska Coastal Plains: Cheney Revising Target Price of Oil to $150 per Barrel: Supporters, Opponents Argue Over Environmental Impact: By H. JOSEF GRRBELLS The Assassinated Press 3/16/05 > > > From spearlstein Thu Mar 17 11:13:36 2005 From: spearlstein (spearlstein at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:13:36 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings Message-ID: <031720051613.5175.4239ACB00000ED8100001437220699849902070A9B9C049D0E0A9F9C@comcast.net> Hey back, to Paul - There are some cross cut interviews with patients, but Wiseman basically thought he'd let the camera roll uninterrupted by any editing; the question for me about that film was one of his subject position.... Is he replicating a 'god's eye view' by just letting the camera take the footage, perhaps interrupting the patient's lives... This goes into some issues I've been having recently about the role of the social poet, as well, (someone mentioned Langston Hughes on this list recently, he wrote a wonderful essay about the role of the social poet, it's in a book by Faith Berry - Good-Morning, Revolution, I'd recommend it to anyone who is writing political poems), and how one writes about 'the issues of the day' which are inevitably filtered through our own subjectivity, without being either condescending or somehow, selfish. I'm sorry to be so vague, but I'd love it if other people who might know more about the subject could respond. In regards to teaching positions, I'm afraid I can't be of much use, yet. Thanks, Sarah -------------- Original message -------------- > Hi, I think I've seen the film by Wiseman, lots of > cross cut interviews with patients? Kent, how are > you? I always feel that - after the Lacan letters > incident - that you are a friend but I may be wrong. > I thought they were hard on you, by the way. The > letters were published in?? I think this journal > published some of mine too, fuck! > Can you give me some advice about seeking lecturing in > creative writing in the US? > best wishes and Hi to Sarah, > Paul Murphy > www.theengine.net > --- spearlstein at comcast.net wrote: > > > > Hey Kent, > > The movie is not so, so erotic - it's a > > dark comedy about a cult of my lil' pony collectors > > in their late 20s, early 30s.... gothed out geeks > > who LARP (Live Action Role Play) with ponies and > > stuffed animals, while they are having a documentary > > made about them by the evil "Mega-Toy" > > corporation... I can't tell you the end, but if you > > go to "Pony Trouble" on the web you can see for > > yourself.. It's a bit gory, however no worse than > > hollywood. I am in a cabaret group, however, The > > Illegitimate Theatre Company, who is doing an all > > women's musical rendition of Titticut Follies; the > > documentary on a mental hospital made in the late > > 60s by Frederick Wiseman.... we're going for a dark, > > erotic Lotte Lenya effect. I am going to be away in > > San Diego for the Popular Culture Association's > > annual conference, where I'll be presenting a paper > > on Sylvia Plath and the movie Sylvia; why the movie > > failed, basically. I am actually going with a > > friend (who is co-writing the paper wit! > > h me) who is a student of Ammiel (sp?) Alcalay at > > Brooklyn College; she said they read your letter in > > class!!! (Oy, what a small world we live in!). I > > haven't been able to do anything in regards to > > Ammiel, as life just became rather chaotic this > > week, but I was impressed by the courage of your > > convictions. In regards to Abu Ghraib, and the > > erotic poem... sounds interesting, I'm helping to > > organize the March 20th anti-war rally in Boston. > > Send me a poem! I'll send you one of mine. > > > > peace, > > Sarah Pearlstein > > > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > Sorry, Sarah: > > > > > > It's Thursday 24th, 7 PM. > > > > > > Hope to see you there! > > > > > > Good luck with the movie. Is it really erotic, as > > you say? I am going > > > to read an erotic poem at the reading--a poem > > about Abu Ghraib. > > > > > > Kent > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Edward.Byrne Thu Mar 17 11:14:16 2005 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:14:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: <20050317155040.11381.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I thought some on the list might find this interesting. I have received a letter from A.T. van 't Hof, Editor of Po?ziepamflet.nl, informing me that in preparation for an article on a poem by Roisin Tierney, the poem was discovered published elsewhere "almost word for word" under a different title by the Algerian poet Amari Hamadene. Upon further research on the internet, it also was discovered many of Hamadene's published poems are actually plagiarized from poems by other published poets, including a poem by Jared Carter that appeared in Valparaiso Poetry Review. Hamadene has published widely in Europe, but also has published poetry in a number of literary journals in the U.S., including The Mississippi Review, The Seneca Review, 13th Warrior, Main Street Rag, etc. In addition, Hamadene apparently has a U.S. publisher that is about to publish a book of poems. The article about Hamadene's poetry and some examples of the plagiarized poetry can be seen at the following: http://1hundred1.20six.nl/ --Ed -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From clitophon Thu Mar 17 11:26:09 2005 From: clitophon (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:26:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings In-Reply-To: <031720051613.5175.4239ACB00000ED8100001437220699849902070A9B9C049D0E0A9F9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050317162610.319.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com> if he edited the interview he could be accused of constructing some viewpoint or paradigm about these patients. letting the camera roll is also a construction, of course. but then, what do you do? If a film-maker wants to construct a film about the lives of victims, he or she hardly wants to become a victim too? This is what makes these films lurid and voyeuristic, a phenomenon not often noted in film studies departments. (whose members hardly want to become victims either) Films like this are hardly a notch above 'Freaks' or 'Psycho' and the fact that they deal with a great deal of political correctness is even more nauseating. Anyway, that's an opinion, interested to hear yours. Are you studying film? --- spearlstein at comcast.net wrote: > Hey back, to Paul - > There are some cross cut interviews with > patients, but Wiseman basically thought he'd let the > camera roll uninterrupted by any editing; the > question for me about that film was one of his > subject position.... Is he replicating a 'god's eye > view' by just letting the camera take the footage, > perhaps interrupting the patient's lives... This > goes into some issues I've been having recently > about the role of the social poet, as well, > (someone mentioned Langston Hughes on this list > recently, he wrote a wonderful essay about the role > of the social poet, it's in a book by Faith Berry - > Good-Morning, Revolution, I'd recommend it to anyone > who is writing political poems), and how one writes > about 'the issues of the day' which are inevitably > filtered through our own subjectivity, without being > either condescending or somehow, selfish. I'm sorry > to be so vague, but I'd love it if other people who > might know more about the subject could respond. > In regards to teaching positions, I'm afraid I can't > be of much use, yet. > Thanks, > Sarah > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > Hi, I think I've seen the film by Wiseman, lots of > > > cross cut interviews with patients? Kent, how are > > you? I always feel that - after the Lacan letters > > incident - that you are a friend but I may be > wrong. > > I thought they were hard on you, by the way. The > > letters were published in?? I think this journal > > published some of mine too, fuck! > > Can you give me some advice about seeking > lecturing in > > creative writing in the US? > > best wishes and Hi to Sarah, > > Paul Murphy > > www.theengine.net > > --- spearlstein at comcast.net wrote: > > > > > > Hey Kent, > > > The movie is not so, so erotic - it's a > > > dark comedy about a cult of my lil' pony > collectors > > > in their late 20s, early 30s.... gothed out > geeks > > > who LARP (Live Action Role Play) with ponies and > > > > stuffed animals, while they are having a > documentary > > > made about them by the evil "Mega-Toy" > > > corporation... I can't tell you the end, but if > you > > > go to "Pony Trouble" on the web you can see for > > > yourself.. It's a bit gory, however no worse > than > > > hollywood. I am in a cabaret group, however, The > > > > Illegitimate Theatre Company, who is doing an > all > > > women's musical rendition of Titticut Follies; > the > > > documentary on a mental hospital made in the > late > > > 60s by Frederick Wiseman.... we're going for a > dark, > > > erotic Lotte Lenya effect. I am going to be away > in > > > San Diego for the Popular Culture Association's > > > annual conference, where I'll be presenting a > paper > > > on Sylvia Plath and the movie Sylvia; why the > movie > > > failed, basically. I am actually going with a > > > friend (who is co-writing the paper wit! > > > h me) who is a student of Ammiel (sp?) Alcalay > at > > > Brooklyn College; she said they read your letter > in > > > class!!! (Oy, what a small world we live in!). I > > > > haven't been able to do anything in regards to > > > Ammiel, as life just became rather chaotic this > > > week, but I was impressed by the courage of your > > > > convictions. In regards to Abu Ghraib, and the > > > erotic poem... sounds interesting, I'm helping > to > > > organize the March 20th anti-war rally in > Boston. > > > Send me a poem! I'll send you one of mine. > > > > > > peace, > > > Sarah Pearlstein > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > > > Sorry, Sarah: > > > > > > > > It's Thursday 24th, 7 PM. > > > > > > > > Hope to see you there! > > > > > > > > Good luck with the movie. Is it really erotic, > as > > > you say? I am going > > > > to read an erotic poem at the reading--a poem > > > about Abu Ghraib. > > > > > > > > Kent > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources > site! > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From grahamd Thu Mar 17 11:40:37 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:40:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gossip Message-ID: >From the latest issue of NYorker-- Whomever You are not even dead yet. I saw you again this morning in Penn Station. In your disguise. Small, thin, elderly. Dressed haphazardly in unbuttoned layers. With the cane, cap, and scarf. Unloved, but not as invisible as you want. I don't know what to feel. I am glad to see you sometimes. I think there is a tenderness in you. Like the way a bird flies. Other times I think it is to keep people away. Always it is unrehearsed need. A fist of need. Never having food put before you. --Linda Gregg ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From paul.lake Thu Mar 17 04:38:01 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:38:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining In-Reply-To: <13e.f31a7e8.2f6a1f50@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the more detailed info. I still shudder thinking about it. Paul On 3/16/05 5:46 PM, "MillB at aol.com" wrote: > Paul Lake, > > Here's an update and correction. > > St James Davis and his wife, LaDonna Davis, 64, were visiting the animal > sanctuary to celebrate the birthday of a 39-year-old chimpanzee, Moe, who was > taken from their home in 1999 after biting off part of a woman?s finger. > The couple had brought Moe a cake and were standing outside his cage when the > two young male chimps, Ollie and Buddy, attacked the man. > > Two other chimps, females named Susie and Bones, also escaped from the cage. > They were recovered outside the sanctuary five hours later. > > Susie and Bones could have played a role in the attack, primate experts said. > The man and his wife were visiting their own chimp (who was raised by them > since the animal's infancy). They were visiting their own chimp at the animal > sanctuary when two other chimps escaped from their cage and mauled St. James > Davis, 62. > > Their own chimp was not part of the attack. > > We know that one of the most reliable predictors of increased male aggression > is the presence of sexually receptive females,? said Jeffrey French, a > psychobiologist who studies primate behavior at the University of Nebraska, > Omaha. > > The chimps chewed off most of Davis? face, tore off his foot and attacked his > limbs and genitals. Davis was transported to Loma Linda University Medical > Center, where he had surgery late Thursday night. > > The medical center would not release any information about Davis? condition on > Friday. Hospital spokeswoman Julie Smith said the family requested > confidentiality. > > LaDonna Davis was bitten on the hand. She was released from the hospital > Friday . > > Not that any of this matters to St James (who--if he does wake up) will be > missing most of his external body parts. > > Just thought I would put my two cents in. > > Mill > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok Thu Mar 17 11:40:49 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:40:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gossip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: let's get back to the chimps On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, David Graham wrote: > >From the latest issue of NYorker-- > > Whomever > > You are not even dead yet. > I saw you again this morning > in Penn Station. In your disguise. > Small, thin, elderly. Dressed > haphazardly in unbuttoned layers. > With the cane, cap, and scarf. > Unloved, but not as invisible > as you want. I don't know what to feel. > I am glad to see you sometimes. > I think there is a tenderness > in you. Like the way a bird flies. > Other times I think it is to keep > people away. Always it is unrehearsed > need. A fist of need. Never having > food put before you. > > --Linda Gregg > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake Thu Mar 17 04:41:09 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:41:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kerry, Jane Goodall has shown that chimps are badasses in the wild too, murdering, raping, and committing infanticide. Looks like there was sin in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve arrived. Paul Lake On 3/17/05 8:33 AM, "Kerry O'Keefe" wrote: > mother of christ... > > Is this normal behavior for chimps? > > Not that this has to do with poetry. > > Or Carlo... > > Actually this sounds like any normal Sunday year's ago in my mother's > house...sorry, just feeling a little sentimental on St. Paddy's... > > I am really a little tormented by this story > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Paul Lake wrote: > >> Monkeys have been shining a little less for me the last couple of weeks >> after reading about the man who was attacked by two chimps he'd come to >> visit. He actually brought one of them a birthday cake. Then two of them got >> out of their cage and attacked him. Keep in mind that a chimp is said to be >> stronger than a grown man. They bit off all ten of his fingers, his face >> (one eye, nose, lips, one cheek), his penis, one buttock and shattered one >> foot. If and when the poor man comes out of the critical unit and discovers >> the way he's been disfigured and maimed, he may wish the doctors hadn't >> revised him. Go get those damned monkeys, leopards and snakes! >> >> Paul Lake >> >> >> >> >> On 3/16/05 11:13 AM, "Alphaville" wrote: >> >>> A Lesson in Discovery Channel Hermeneutics >>> >>> >>> In Kenya, vervet monkeys take the ground >>> Until a sentry gives a chattering bark, >>> Which in the simple vervet lexicon >>> Means /snake, /and connotes/ evil/, /death /and /dark/. >>> Or else the sentry makes a guttural sound >>> That translates in our own more complex tongue >>> To /hawk /or /eagle/ circling for prey, >>> And sends the monkeys scampering. Either way, >>> The monkeys must take action--jump or flee >>> Across the ground or to a sheltering tree. >>> Should one, instead, hearing a sentry speak, >>> Decide to deconstruct the fellow's meaning >>> And prove all urgent chattering oblique, >>> A python's fang or hawk's cruel curving beak >>> Will punctuate the monkey's idle preening, >>> Ending his dissertation in mid-squeak. >>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> --- >>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >>> >>> >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From gmguddi Thu Mar 17 11:49:36 2005 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:49:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <20050317155040.11381.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050317104724.0291cec0@mail.ilstu.edu> Ed: Now THIS is fascinating! Wish I had time to write more. I'll follow this thread. Gabe At 10:14 AM 3/17/2005, Edward Byrne wrote: >I thought some on the list might find this interesting. > >I have received a letter from A.T. van 't Hof, Editor of >Po?ziepamflet.nl, informing me that in preparation for an article on >a poem by Roisin Tierney, the poem was discovered published elsewhere >"almost word for word" under a different title by the Algerian poet >Amari Hamadene. Upon further research on the internet, it also was >discovered many of Hamadene's published poems are actually >plagiarized from poems by other published poets, including a poem by >Jared Carter that appeared in Valparaiso Poetry Review. > >Hamadene has published widely in Europe, but also has published >poetry in a number of literary journals in the U.S., including The >Mississippi Review, The Seneca Review, 13th Warrior, Main Street Rag, >etc. In addition, Hamadene apparently has a U.S. publisher that is >about to publish a book of poems. > >The article about Hamadene's poetry and some examples of the >plagiarized poetry can be seen at the following: > >http://1hundred1.20six.nl/ > >--Ed > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Edward Byrne >Department of English >322 Huegli Hall >Valparaiso University >Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > >E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu >http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ > >Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review >E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu >http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ >Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 >Fax: (219) 464-5511 > >-------------------------------------------------- > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu From MillB Thu Mar 17 11:51:46 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:51:46 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining Message-ID: <1b8.f38649b.2f6b0fa2@aol.com> An Infinite Number of Monkeys Ronald Koertge * After all the Shakespeare, the book of poems they type is the saddest in history. But before they can finish it, they have to wait for that Someone who is always looking to look away. Only then can they strike the million keys that spell humiliation and grief, which are the great subjects of Monkey Literature and not, as some people still believe, the banana and the tire. from Making Love to Roget's Wife, 1997 University of Arkansas Press -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Mar 17 11:53:38 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:53:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gossip References: Message-ID: <00d201c52b11$de404700$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > >From the latest issue of NYorker-- > > Whomever > > You are not even dead yet. > I saw you again this morning > in Penn Station. In your disguise. > Small, thin, elderly. Dressed > haphazardly in unbuttoned layers. > With the cane, cap, and scarf. > Unloved, but not as invisible > as you want. I don't know what to feel. > I am glad to see you sometimes. > I think there is a tenderness > in you. Like the way a bird flies. > Other times I think it is to keep > people away. Always it is unrehearsed > need. A fist of need. Never having > food put before you. > > --Linda Gregg I gotta admit it, the NYer is too advanced for me. I haven't any idea why anyone would consider this a poem worth publishing--aside from the fact that it was by a Name. From alphavil Thu Mar 17 11:58:46 2005 From: alphavil (Alphaville) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:58:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4239B746.30306@ix.netcom.com> [8]This is a crucial issue in contemporary theory and writing. Poststructuralism has pronounced a death sentence for the individual author(ship), but does this mean that we are doomed to return to a pre-literary stage of anonymity? One cannot enter twice the same river, and anonymity in its post-authorial, not pre-authorial, implementation will turn into something different from folklore anonymity. What would be, then, a progressive, not retrospective, way out of the crisis of individual authorship? Not anonymity, I believe, but hyper-authorship. Edward Byrne wrote: >I thought some on the list might find this interesting. > >I have received a letter from A.T. van 't Hof, Editor of >Po?ziepamflet.nl, informing me that in preparation for an article on >a poem by Roisin Tierney, the poem was discovered published elsewhere >"almost word for word" under a different title by the Algerian poet >Amari Hamadene. Upon further research on the internet, it also was >discovered many of Hamadene's published poems are actually >plagiarized from poems by other published poets, including a poem by >Jared Carter that appeared in Valparaiso Poetry Review. > >Hamadene has published widely in Europe, but also has published >poetry in a number of literary journals in the U.S., including The >Mississippi Review, The Seneca Review, 13th Warrior, Main Street Rag, >etc. In addition, Hamadene apparently has a U.S. publisher that is >about to publish a book of poems. > >The article about Hamadene's poetry and some examples of the >plagiarized poetry can be seen at the following: > >http://1hundred1.20six.nl/ > >--Ed > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Edward Byrne >Department of English >322 Huegli Hall >Valparaiso University >Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > >E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu >http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ > >Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review >E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu >http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ >Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 >Fax: (219) 464-5511 > >-------------------------------------------------- > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From grahamd Thu Mar 17 12:08:53 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:08:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 3/17/05 3:41 AM, Paul Lake at paul.lake at mail.atu.edu wrote: > Kerry, Jane Goodall has shown that chimps are badasses in the wild too, > murdering, raping, and committing infanticide. Looks like there was sin in > the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve arrived. > > Paul Lake I think people were forever misled by the Tarzan movies--Cheetah the chimp was such a cutie. He was, however, a mere baby and apparently a very docile animal to boot. Adult chimps are vicious beyond belief. My mother bears a scar on her arm from a childhood chimp bite. I've tried & failed to write a poem about a factoid I picked up just a few years back--so I'll offer it to you all. It turns out that Cheetah is still alive. Isn't that amazing? I believe he's the oldest chimp on record. In his 70s now, as I recall, living in retirement somewhere in California. He made movies up into the 1960s, unheard of for an adult chimp. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From MillB Thu Mar 17 12:10:48 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:10:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining Message-ID: A Distance of Time by RICHARD FEIN Feeding fruit to the monkeys and apes in the primate house, I stop by the chimp cage. I toss in an apple. It's evening. The falling sun is as ripe red as the fruit. I'm unmoved by the sunset. I want to finish my job quickly and punch out. I rush and pitch food to the beasts. One chimp stands holding on to a window bar, motionless. Through the window the sun surrounds his head like a bloody corona. When his mate swings over to him to play with the apple, he waves her away. He is alone, and wants to be. The sun sets in the distance between the elephant and birdhouses. He remains still, till the red in the clouds turns dark blue. Only then does he turn and we are face to face in the darkening cell block. His black pupils, his contorted, convex lips reveal hostility. I have invaded a private moment. I could have been home by now; it no longer matters. Surely he must be moved by the sunset. Some tropic bird squawks in the distance. He turns his head. Is he trying to remember? I try to move closer, but the bars are immovable. And I have left the keys in another house which is far, far too far, to walk back to now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil Thu Mar 17 12:07:37 2005 From: alphavil (Alphaville) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:07:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: <4239B746.30306@ix.netcom.com> References: <4239B746.30306@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <4239B959.4060900@ix.netcom.com> Although Bernstein doesn't explicitly say so, the critique of "voice," "self-presence," and authenticity, put forward in _Content's Dream_, as well as in such related texts as Ron Silliman's own _The New Sentence_ (1987) or Steve McCaffery's _North of Intention_ (1986), must be understood as part of the larger post-structuralist critique of authorship and the humanist subject, a critique that became prominent in the late sixties and reached its height in the U.S. a decade or so later when the Language movement was coming into its own. It was Roland Barthes, after all, who insisted, in "The Death of the Author" (1968), that writing, far from being the simple and direct expression of interiority, is "the destruction of every voice, every point of origin. Writing is that neutral, composite, oblique space where our subject slips away, the negative where all identity is lost, starting with the very identity of the body writing." "Linguistically, " Barthes declared, "the author is never more than the instance writing, just as _I_ is nothing other than the instance saying _I_: language knows a 'subject', not a 'person'." And he famously concludes:#@&%*#$@identity*&%$#*. > > Edward Byrne wrote: > >> I thought some on the list might find this interesting. >> I have received a letter from A.T. van 't Hof, Editor of >> Po?ziepamflet.nl, informing me that in preparation for an article on >> a poem by Roisin Tierney, the poem was discovered published elsewhere >> "almost word for word" under a different title by the Algerian poet >> Amari Hamadene. Upon further research on the internet, it also was >> discovered many of Hamadene's published poems are actually >> plagiarized from poems by other published poets, including a poem by >> Jared Carter that appeared in Valparaiso Poetry Review. >> Hamadene has published widely in Europe, but also has published >> poetry in a number of literary journals in the U.S., including The >> Mississippi Review, The Seneca Review, 13th Warrior, Main Street Rag, >> etc. In addition, Hamadene apparently has a U.S. publisher that is >> about to publish a book of poems. >> >> The article about Hamadene's poetry and some examples of the >> plagiarized poetry can be seen at the following: >> >> http://1hundred1.20six.nl/ >> >> --Ed >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> >> Edward Byrne >> Department of English >> 322 Huegli Hall >> Valparaiso University >> Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 >> >> E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu >> http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ >> >> Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review >> E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu >> http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ >> Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 >> Fax: (219) 464-5511 >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chezjewelweed Thu Mar 17 12:12:57 2005 From: chezjewelweed (Jewelweed) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:12:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gossip In-Reply-To: <00d201c52b11$de404700$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <00d201c52b11$de404700$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: I vote for the chimps. From shkodrov Thu Mar 17 12:49:37 2005 From: shkodrov (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:49:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050317174937.88754.qmail@web54607.mail.yahoo.com> Vicious? Chimps?! How about humans, David? I don't know if Poets are more vicious than regular mortals, as Kent suggests, but I tend to believe that this MIGHT be true... I'm on my way to search for horrible stories on this subject... but wait! We just had an example!!! Interesting that very few people got interested then... we must have gotten immunized to THIS. And, Paul, as I recollect, the sin Adam and Eve committed was connected to their curiosity, and their punishment was that they've gotten the ability to tell "good" from "bad" (besides the smaller punishment that they?ve got thrown out of the garden...). Am I wrong again??? Rosie David Graham wrote: on 3/17/05 3:41 AM, Paul Lake at paul.lake at mail.atu.edu wrote: > Kerry, Jane Goodall has shown that chimps are badasses in the wild too, > murdering, raping, and committing infanticide. Looks like there was sin in > the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve arrived. > > Paul Lake I think people were forever misled by the Tarzan movies--Cheetah the chimp was such a cutie. He was, however, a mere baby and apparently a very docile animal to boot. Adult chimps are vicious beyond belief. My mother bears a scar on her arm from a childhood chimp bite. I've tried & failed to write a poem about a factoid I picked up just a few years back--so I'll offer it to you all. It turns out that Cheetah is still alive. Isn't that amazing? I believe he's the oldest chimp on record. In his 70s now, as I recall, living in retirement somewhere in California. He made movies up into the 1960s, unheard of for an adult chimp. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Mar 17 12:54:30 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:54:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: <4239B746.30306@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Speaking of anonymity, why should we bother reading anonymous postings? Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. --Noam Chomsky Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ { -----Original Message----- { From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu { [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Alphaville { Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:59 AM { To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views { Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry { { { [8]This is a crucial issue in contemporary theory and writing. { Poststructuralism has pronounced a death sentence for the individual { author(ship), but does this mean that we are doomed to return to a { pre-literary stage of anonymity? One cannot enter twice the same river, { and anonymity in its post-authorial, not pre-authorial, implementation { will turn into something different from folklore anonymity. What would { be, then, a progressive, not retrospective, way out of the crisis of { individual authorship? Not anonymity, I believe, but hyper-authorship. { { Edward Byrne wrote: { { >I thought some on the list might find this interesting. { > { >I have received a letter from A.T. van 't Hof, Editor of { >Po?ziepamflet.nl, informing me that in preparation for an article on { >a poem by Roisin Tierney, the poem was discovered published elsewhere { >"almost word for word" under a different title by the Algerian poet { >Amari Hamadene. Upon further research on the internet, it also was { >discovered many of Hamadene's published poems are actually { >plagiarized from poems by other published poets, including a poem by { >Jared Carter that appeared in Valparaiso Poetry Review. { > { >Hamadene has published widely in Europe, but also has published { >poetry in a number of literary journals in the U.S., including The { >Mississippi Review, The Seneca Review, 13th Warrior, Main Street Rag, { >etc. In addition, Hamadene apparently has a U.S. publisher that is { >about to publish a book of poems. { > { >The article about Hamadene's poetry and some examples of the { >plagiarized poetry can be seen at the following: { > { >http://1hundred1.20six.nl/ { > { >--Ed { > { >-------------------------------------------------- { > { >Edward Byrne { >Department of English { >322 Huegli Hall { >Valparaiso University { >Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 { > { >E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu { >http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ { > { >Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review { >E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu { >http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ { >Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 { >Fax: (219) 464-5511 { > { >-------------------------------------------------- { > { > { >_______________________________________________ { >New-Poetry mailing list { >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { > { > { > { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From grahamd Thu Mar 17 13:00:45 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:00:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Amy Gerstler Message-ID: Lately I've been enjoying the poems of Amy Gerstler quite a bit. She's yet another solid poet who's been around a good while that I'm just recently catching up with. There are hundreds if not thousands of such poets in this country. Since she publishes with Penguin, I guess we can't exactly call her obscure; still, I'm often struck by how many good poets even a poetry-besotted fool like myself has not heard of. Gerstler must have a dozen or more books, and writes fiction as well as poetry. She's a maximalist in style, so it's not surprising to find blurbs on her books by the likes of the Alices, Notley and Fulton. Anyway, here's a poem from several books back. Colorlessness Eventually, we all lose the perfumed, bejeweled world, beyond which lies silent anarchy. The yellow of burnt grass evaporates like fumes. Poof! The green of leeks is gone. You're robbed of the rich ripe browns of feces, the ringing inner pink of grilled beef. The watery gray of writing and drawing ink fades away too. Clear-seer, observer of matter's never-ending attempt to reduce or augment itself into just light, does color's flight prefigure your coming nothingness: mud to flesh to thin air, or will some tendril at last burst from you: saffron, black, or earwax orange, to scare the pants off both atheists and verse mongers--a spindly rebellion germinated for ages, not in follicle or marrow, but in that maypole of our emotions: fear, whose multicolored ribbons flutter and flutter like nerves branching from a backbone--they twitch and sting but can never be grasped. Throughout the pervasive gray of disgrace, the purple of complaint, despite your alternating caresses and attempts to shrug me off, I swear by the reek of the dung heap, by the slip and slide of white silk, by the feelings you stupidly unleashed in me, I will never lose you completely in the gathering tide of colorlessness, due to love's stubborn tint. --Amy Gerstler. *Crown of Weeds*. Penguin, 1997. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd Thu Mar 17 13:08:16 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:08:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Chimps In-Reply-To: <20050317174937.88754.qmail@web54607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: on 3/17/05 11:49 AM, Rosie Shkodrov at shkodrov at yahoo.com wrote: Vicious? Chimps?! How about humans, David? ------------------------------------ Hannibal Lecter will always catch one's interest, and Mike Tyson chomping on someone's ear is news. A chimp bite is not. In any case, you can ask my mother how vicious chimps are, and she'll show you her scar. Adult chimps are brutal, highly territorial, easily angered, and, I'm told, about 10 times more powerful than an adult human male. They make terrible pets, which I'm sure is their point, exactly. . . . ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Thu Mar 17 06:07:21 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:07:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining In-Reply-To: <1b8.f38649b.2f6b0fa2@aol.com> Message-ID: On 3/17/05 10:51 AM, "MillB at aol.com" wrote: > An Infinite Number of Monkeys > Ronald Koertge * > After all the Shakespeare, the book > of poems they type is the saddest > in history. > > But before they can finish it, > they have to wait for that Someone > who is always > > looking to look away. Only then > can they strike the million > keys that spell > > humiliation and grief, which are > the great subjects of Monkey > Literature > > and not, as some people still > believe, the banana > and the tire. > > > > from Making Love to Roget's Wife, 1997 > University of Arkansas Press > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > This is nicely done. Thanks for posting. It helps me in my monkey-depression mood. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon Thu Mar 17 13:10:44 2005 From: clitophon (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:10:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050317181045.14453.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> doesn't the net move us towards this kind of anonymity? I have up to 8 different names that I use simply because some people from my past won't talk to me and I like to engage them in parabola (let's say) from time to time. of course, the whole thing is ridiculous but try telling them that, PM --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > Speaking of anonymity, why should we bother reading > anonymous postings? > > Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. > --Noam Chomsky > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > { -----Original Message----- > { From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On > Behalf Of Alphaville > { Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:59 AM > { To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &Views > { Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry > { > { > { [8]This is a crucial issue in contemporary > theory and writing. > { Poststructuralism has pronounced a death > sentence for the individual > { author(ship), but does this mean that we are > doomed to return to a > { pre-literary stage of anonymity? One cannot > enter twice the same river, > { and anonymity in its post-authorial, not > pre-authorial, implementation > { will turn into something different from > folklore anonymity. What would > { be, then, a progressive, not retrospective, way > out of the crisis of > { individual authorship? Not anonymity, I > believe, but hyper-authorship. > { > { Edward Byrne wrote: > { > { >I thought some on the list might find this > interesting. > { > > { >I have received a letter from A.T. van 't Hof, > Editor of > { >Po?ziepamflet.nl, informing me that in > preparation for an article on > { >a poem by Roisin Tierney, the poem was > discovered published elsewhere > { >"almost word for word" under a different title > by the Algerian poet > { >Amari Hamadene. Upon further research on the > internet, it also was > { >discovered many of Hamadene's published poems > are actually > { >plagiarized from poems by other published > poets, including a poem by > { >Jared Carter that appeared in Valparaiso > Poetry Review. > { > > { >Hamadene has published widely in Europe, but > also has published > { >poetry in a number of literary journals in the > U.S., including The > { >Mississippi Review, The Seneca Review, 13th > Warrior, Main Street Rag, > { >etc. In addition, Hamadene apparently has a > U.S. publisher that is > { >about to publish a book of poems. > { > > { >The article about Hamadene's poetry and some > examples of the > { >plagiarized poetry can be seen at the > following: > { > > { >http://1hundred1.20six.nl/ > { > > { >--Ed > { > > { > >-------------------------------------------------- > { > > { >Edward Byrne > { >Department of English > { >322 Huegli Hall > { >Valparaiso University > { >Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > { > > { >E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu > { > >http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ > { > > { >Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review > { >E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu > { >http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ > { >Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 > { >Fax: (219) 464-5511 > { > > { > >-------------------------------------------------- > { > > { > > { > >_______________________________________________ > { >New-Poetry mailing list > { >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { > > { > > { > > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From chezjewelweed Thu Mar 17 13:12:05 2005 From: chezjewelweed (Jewelweed) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:12:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <4239B746.30306@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:54:30 -0500, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Speaking of anonymity, why should we bother reading > anonymous postings? If you meant me, I apologize-- I didn't realize until I had actually posted that my name wasn't on this account. *facepalm* This is Suzanne Burns, and I use this account (with a forwarding filter) for all of my mailing lists in order to make my other email address as spam-proof as possible. Anyway, sorry about. Anonymity was not what I intended. I think I posted once before from this address, and signed. Suzanne From paul.lake Thu Mar 17 06:11:38 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:11:38 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: <4239B959.4060900@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: It's remains interesting that Barthes and the other po-mo champions of authorless writing always protect their copyright and cash their publishers' checks. Like greedy little monkeys. To keep that theme going, too. Paul Lake On 3/17/05 11:07 AM, "Alphaville" wrote: > Although Bernstein doesn't explicitly say so, the critique of "voice," > "self-presence," and authenticity, put forward in _Content's Dream_, as > well as in such related texts as Ron Silliman's own _The New Sentence_ > (1987) or Steve McCaffery's _North of Intention_ (1986), must be > understood as part of the larger post-structuralist critique of > authorship and the humanist subject, a critique that became prominent in > the late sixties and reached its height in the U.S. a decade or so later > when the Language movement was coming into its own. It was Roland > Barthes, after all, who insisted, in "The Death of the Author" (1968), > that writing, far from being the simple and direct expression of > interiority, is "the destruction of every voice, every point of origin. > Writing is that neutral, composite, oblique space where our subject > slips away, the negative where all identity is lost, starting with the > very identity of the body writing." "Linguistically, " Barthes declared, > "the author is never more than the instance writing, just as _I_ is > nothing other than the instance saying _I_: language knows a 'subject', > not a 'person'." And he famously concludes:#@&%*#$@identity*&%$#*. > > >> >> Edward Byrne wrote: >> >>> I thought some on the list might find this interesting. >>> I have received a letter from A.T. van 't Hof, Editor of >>> Po?ziepamflet.nl, informing me that in preparation for an article on >>> a poem by Roisin Tierney, the poem was discovered published elsewhere >>> "almost word for word" under a different title by the Algerian poet >>> Amari Hamadene. Upon further research on the internet, it also was >>> discovered many of Hamadene's published poems are actually >>> plagiarized from poems by other published poets, including a poem by >>> Jared Carter that appeared in Valparaiso Poetry Review. >>> Hamadene has published widely in Europe, but also has published >>> poetry in a number of literary journals in the U.S., including The >>> Mississippi Review, The Seneca Review, 13th Warrior, Main Street Rag, >>> etc. In addition, Hamadene apparently has a U.S. publisher that is >>> about to publish a book of poems. >>> >>> The article about Hamadene's poetry and some examples of the >>> plagiarized poetry can be seen at the following: >>> >>> http://1hundred1.20six.nl/ >>> >>> --Ed >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Edward Byrne >>> Department of English >>> 322 Huegli Hall >>> Valparaiso University >>> Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 >>> >>> E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu >>> http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ >>> >>> Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review >>> E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu >>> http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ >>> Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 >>> Fax: (219) 464-5511 >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake Thu Mar 17 06:14:18 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:14:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/17/05 11:08 AM, "David Graham" wrote: > I've tried & failed to write a poem about a factoid I picked up just a few > years back--so I'll offer it to you all. It turns out that Cheetah is still > alive. Isn't that amazing? I believe he's the oldest chimp on record. In > his 70s now, as I recall, living in retirement somewhere in California. He > made movies up into the 1960s, unheard of for an adult chimp. I like to picture the retired Cheetah sitting there, looking exactly like George Burns, smoking a cigar and reminiscing about the old days when the studios were king. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From alphavil Thu Mar 17 13:13:59 2005 From: alphavil (Alphaville) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:13:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4239C8E7.70102@ix.netcom.com> Three Anonymous Poems: /Dates unknown/ The Birth of Christ To find heaven in a cattle stall ? No, to find something stranger still, To find heaven's vault has been unroofed By an infant in a feeding trough. To Priapus It's to you, great God of gardens, that Potamon Leaves his billhook, bush-harrow, threshing-sledge, A sickle for harvesting artichokes, the thread- Bare coat that held off both the wind and rain, His suntanned, oxhide, weatherproof boots, a wood-nibbed Dibble for setting sprouts, and the mattock That in the dog days he'd keep ready to unblock The rocked-in sluice and irrigate the beds. Invitation to Oblivion Why was I born? Where did I come from? How do I happen to be where I am? Knowing nothing, how can I learn anything? I was nothing, and yet I was born. And before too long I'll be nothing again, Nothing at all, of no value whatever, And such is the lot of everyone. And so, I say, brim the mixing bowls with wine, For only in oblivion is oblivion braved. > > From paul.lake Thu Mar 17 06:19:54 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:19:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps In-Reply-To: <20050317174937.88754.qmail@web54607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3/17/05 11:49 AM, "Rosie Shkodrov" wrote: > And, Paul, as I recollect, the sin Adam and Eve committed was connected to > their curiosity, and their punishment was that they've gotten the ability to > tell "good" from "bad" (besides the smaller punishment that they?ve got thrown > out of the garden...). Am I wrong again??? No, you?ve got it right, Rosie. But one implication of the Eden myth was that sin didn?t exist till Adam and Eve committed the first one, though of course one can argue that brutality without self-awarness, such as those committed by wild chimps, doesn?t count as sin. Has anybody on the list here read T. C. Boyle?s wonderfully weird short story ?Descent of Man?? Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Thu Mar 17 06:23:09 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:23:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Chimps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/17/05 12:08 PM, "David Graham" wrote: > Adult chimps are brutal, highly territorial, easily angered, and, I'm told, > about 10 times more powerful than an adult human male. They make terrible > pets, which I'm sure is their point, exactly. . . I?m still waiting for Michael Jackson?s chimp to show some initiative and DO something. My first thought when I read of the chimps chewing off that poor man?s face was of Hannibal Lecter. With Jacko, though, the job is already half done. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok Thu Mar 17 13:27:53 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:27:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: <4239B959.4060900@ix.netcom.com> References: <4239B746.30306@ix.netcom.com> <4239B959.4060900@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: I so, so love these ideas - just as I did when first exposed to them. It is just that I think they are so hugely untrue. It is like saying, when one takes a walk, the body dissolves. No sych thing as skin, bones, DNA...All there is is walking...I think it is such utter folly to discount the notion of the self - the body of the psyche, the rules of the psyche - whatever one thinks they are. The existence of personality. It is as if people decided one day that this is what they wanted to think, and went about the business of proclaiming it true. Lovely notions, highly literary, highly theoretical in the yummiest way. But false. Now Parcelli, you know you can talk me up oneside of the wall and back down again. You have references halfwway into next week. But nothing will change my mind on this. THERE IS SUCH A THING AS THE SELF. we're stuck with it. On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Alphaville wrote: > Although Bernstein doesn't explicitly say so, the critique of "voice," > "self-presence," and authenticity, put forward in _Content's Dream_, as > well as in such related texts as Ron Silliman's own _The New Sentence_ > (1987) or Steve McCaffery's _North of Intention_ (1986), must be > understood as part of the larger post-structuralist critique of > authorship and the humanist subject, a critique that became prominent in > the late sixties and reached its height in the U.S. a decade or so later > when the Language movement was coming into its own. It was Roland > Barthes, after all, who insisted, in "The Death of the Author" (1968), > that writing, far from being the simple and direct expression of > interiority, is "the destruction of every voice, every point of origin. > Writing is that neutral, composite, oblique space where our subject > slips away, the negative where all identity is lost, starting with the > very identity of the body writing." "Linguistically, " Barthes declared, > "the author is never more than the instance writing, just as _I_ is > nothing other than the instance saying _I_: language knows a 'subject', > not a 'person'." And he famously concludes:#@&%*#$@identity*&%$#*. > > > > > > Edward Byrne wrote: > > > >> I thought some on the list might find this interesting. > >> I have received a letter from A.T. van 't Hof, Editor of > >> Po?ziepamflet.nl, informing me that in preparation for an article on > >> a poem by Roisin Tierney, the poem was discovered published elsewhere > >> "almost word for word" under a different title by the Algerian poet > >> Amari Hamadene. Upon further research on the internet, it also was > >> discovered many of Hamadene's published poems are actually > >> plagiarized from poems by other published poets, including a poem by > >> Jared Carter that appeared in Valparaiso Poetry Review. > >> Hamadene has published widely in Europe, but also has published > >> poetry in a number of literary journals in the U.S., including The > >> Mississippi Review, The Seneca Review, 13th Warrior, Main Street Rag, > >> etc. In addition, Hamadene apparently has a U.S. publisher that is > >> about to publish a book of poems. > >> > >> The article about Hamadene's poetry and some examples of the > >> plagiarized poetry can be seen at the following: > >> > >> http://1hundred1.20six.nl/ > >> > >> --Ed > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Edward Byrne > >> Department of English > >> 322 Huegli Hall > >> Valparaiso University > >> Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > >> > >> E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu > >> http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ > >> > >> Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review > >> E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu > >> http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ > >> Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 > >> Fax: (219) 464-5511 > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jkok Thu Mar 17 13:29:06 2005 From: jkok (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:29:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ditto. On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Paul Lake wrote: > On 3/17/05 10:51 AM, "MillB at aol.com" wrote: > > > An Infinite Number of Monkeys > > Ronald Koertge * > > After all the Shakespeare, the book > > of poems they type is the saddest > > in history. > > > > But before they can finish it, > > they have to wait for that Someone > > who is always > > > > looking to look away. Only then > > can they strike the million > > keys that spell > > > > humiliation and grief, which are > > the great subjects of Monkey > > Literature > > > > and not, as some people still > > believe, the banana > > and the tire. > > > > > > > > from Making Love to Roget's Wife, 1997 > > University of Arkansas Press > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > This is nicely done. Thanks for posting. It helps me in my > monkey-depression mood. > > Paul Lake > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard Thu Mar 17 13:35:56 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:35:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Suzanne-- It was whoever "Alphaville" attachs to that I had in mind. Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ { -----Original Message----- { From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu { [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Jewelweed { Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 1:12 PM { To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views { Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry { { { On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:54:30 -0500, Halvard Johnson { wrote: { > Speaking of anonymity, why should we bother reading { > anonymous postings? { { If you meant me, I apologize-- I didn't realize until I had actually { posted that my name wasn't on this account. *facepalm* { { This is Suzanne Burns, and I use this account (with a forwarding { filter) for all of my mailing lists in order to make my other email { address as spam-proof as possible. { { Anyway, sorry about. Anonymity was not what I intended. I think I { posted once before from this address, and signed. { { Suzanne { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From halvard Thu Mar 17 13:48:44 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:48:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: <4239C8E7.70102@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Those damned Anonymouses are always stealing from each other, among others. Hal "Poetic statements are no more actual statements than the peaches visible in a still life are actual dessert." --Susanne K. Langer Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ { Three Anonymous Poems: { { /Dates unknown/ { { { The Birth of Christ { { To find heaven in a cattle stall ? { No, to find something stranger still, { { To find heaven's vault has been unroofed { By an infant in a feeding trough. { { { To Priapus { { It's to you, great God of gardens, that Potamon { Leaves his billhook, bush-harrow, threshing-sledge, { A sickle for harvesting artichokes, the thread- { Bare coat that held off both the wind and rain, { { His suntanned, oxhide, weatherproof boots, a wood-nibbed { Dibble for setting sprouts, and the mattock { That in the dog days he'd keep ready to unblock { The rocked-in sluice and irrigate the beds. { { { Invitation to Oblivion { { Why was I born? Where did I come from? { How do I happen to be where I am? { Knowing nothing, how can I learn anything? { { I was nothing, and yet I was born. { And before too long I'll be nothing again, { Nothing at all, of no value whatever, { { And such is the lot of everyone. And so, { I say, brim the mixing bowls with wine, { For only in oblivion is oblivion braved. { { { { { > { > { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From rwilsnac Thu Mar 17 14:45:25 2005 From: rwilsnac (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:45:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050317133920.01088f70@cyrus.undsmhs.net> At 11:08 AM 3/17/2005 -0600, David Graham wrote: >I've tried & failed to write a poem about a factoid I picked up just a few >years back--so I'll offer it to you all. It turns out that Cheetah is still >alive. Isn't that amazing? I believe he's the oldest chimp on record. In >his 70s now, as I recall, living in retirement somewhere in California. He >made movies up into the 1960s, unheard of for an adult chimp. David et al., The news about Cheetah's "successful retirement" surfaced about two years ago, about the same time as more research indicating that chimps were the species most closely related to humans. I can't provide a relevant poem, but I can provide a little "light relief" that appeared on another list in response to these news items. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >WASHINGTON (May 19, 2003 6:11 p.m. EDT) - Chimpanzees are more >closely related to people than to gorillas or other primates and probably >should be included in the human branch of the family tree, a research >team says. Yada, yada, yada. I tried to convince Dave Garroway of that, and what did I get? He kicked me off the Today show and refused to renew my contact. Cheetah got off better only because he had a better agent and he played kiss-the-banana with the studio execs. Those late-blooming pseudo-liberal primatologists can go climb a tree! J. Fred Muggs, Corresponding Secretary Aging Primate Eco-MArxist Network ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From grahamd Thu Mar 17 15:17:54 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:17:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 3/17/05 12:35 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote: > > It was whoever "Alphaville" attachs to that I had in mind. > > Hal Judging by style alone, I believe "Alphaville" is none other than our old friend Carlo P. under a nouveau nom de list. He can correct me if I'm wrong. Even if I'm not wrong, for that matter. . . . ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From elemenope Thu Mar 17 02:30:32 2005 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:30:32 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings (Kent Johnson) In-Reply-To: <200503171620.j2HGKn0t011415@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200503171620.j2HGKn0t011415@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Get Serious Have any unfaked pomes about Uday and KooSay? Especially the part when they stroll into a highschool and point goon shotguns at the prettiest girl(s), yeah, Saleh, and then have their teacher deliver the girl (girls) to 77 Sunset Virgins Strip Palace where they are served the sweetest, purest, pellucid hallucinogenic grapes and then celebrate under documentary porno video hilarious rapes. --- Yeah, Kent, then you can tell child RadLibs how the Moron failed to free 20 million from Saddam's insane trip tell everyone in a quasi metrical rant tricked out a la Chappaquidick Kennedy in lugubrious cant ---- ounce code orange a the ohm trilobite trilobites [President Coolidge: "The Business of America is Business."] ---- I Stand With The First Lady I Stand with The Statue of Liberty A crowd of poets waving their poems Is merely a crowd waving its fists - And not one swung at Saddam, Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- R i c h a r d D i l l o n ELEMENOPE Productions W SpaceTime, USA > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > Sorry, Sarah: > > > > It's Thursday 24th, 7 PM. > > > > Hope to see you there! > > > > Good luck with the movie. Is it really erotic, as > you say? I am going > > to read an erotic poem at the reading--a poem > about Abu Ghraib. > > > > Kent > > _______________________________________________ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry Thu Mar 17 15:37:18 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:37:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050317133920.01088f70@cyrus.undsmhs.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050317133920.01088f70@cyrus.undsmhs.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a050317123772a882ce@mail.gmail.com> Hah! Thanks, Richard, for a good laugh. I've been waiting since Day 1 on this list (I'm an old timer) for someone to work in a J. Fred Muggs reference. Beautiful. Jeff Newberry On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:45:25 -0600, Richard Wilsnack wrote: > At 11:08 AM 3/17/2005 -0600, David Graham wrote: > > >I've tried & failed to write a poem about a factoid I picked up just a few > >years back--so I'll offer it to you all. It turns out that Cheetah is still > >alive. Isn't that amazing? I believe he's the oldest chimp on record. In > >his 70s now, as I recall, living in retirement somewhere in California. He > >made movies up into the 1960s, unheard of for an adult chimp. > > David et al., > > The news about Cheetah's "successful retirement" surfaced about two > years ago, about the same time as more research indicating that chimps > were the species most closely related to humans. I can't provide a > relevant poem, but I can provide a little "light relief" that appeared on > another list in response to these news items. > > Richard W. Wilsnack > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >WASHINGTON (May 19, 2003 6:11 p.m. EDT) - Chimpanzees are more > >closely related to people than to gorillas or other primates and probably > >should be included in the human branch of the family tree, a research > >team says. > > Yada, yada, yada. I tried to convince Dave Garroway of that, and what > did I get? He kicked me off the Today show and refused to renew my > contact. Cheetah got off better only because he had a better agent and > he played kiss-the-banana with the studio execs. Those late-blooming > pseudo-liberal primatologists can go climb a tree! > > J. Fred Muggs, Corresponding Secretary > Aging Primate Eco-MArxist Network > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From marcus Thu Mar 17 16:03:17 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:03:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings (Kent Johnson) In-Reply-To: References: <200503171620.j2HGKn0t011415@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <4239AA45.13869.1B4A931@localhost> On 17 Mar 2005 at 15:30, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > Get Serious > Have any unfaked pomes about Uday and KooSay?Especially the part when > they stroll into a highschool and point goon shotguns at the prettiest > girl(s), yeah, Saleh, and then have their teacher > deliver the girl (girls) to 77 Sunset Virgins Strip Palacewhere they > are served the sweetest, purest, pellucid hallucinogenic grapes and > then celebrate under documentary porno video hilarious rapes. > Yeah, Kent, then you can tell child RadLibs how the Moronfailed to > free 20 million from Saddam's insane trip tell everyone in a quasi > metrical rant tricked out a la Chappaquidick Kennedy in lugubrious > cant > A crowd of poets waving their poems > Is merely a crowd waving its fists - > And not one swung at Saddam, > Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, > Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating > Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. Notgettingititudinosity Thanks to John Bales, who coined the word. It hurts each time some new-encountered "we" Rejects you when you think that your enthused Excitement ought to pay your member?s fee -- We all have been both guilty and accused Of notgettingititudinosity. At first I thought perhaps it could be me Who?d missed why you were hostile and confused -- But one by one the whole group seemed to be Persuaded by your comments that you oozed Notgettingititudinosity. You haven't given us a clue to see Why you are angry; we were just amused At least at first until you made so free With daily, nightly, hourly unexcused Notgettingititudinosity. If unpursued the guilty still will flee Perhaps it?s likewise true that the abused Attack potential friends whom they don?t see As friendly since they?re blinded by a bruised Notgettingititudinosity. There may be grounds on which we can agree -- And all the web is out there to be cruised -- But strong good-will on all sides is the key To properly disposing of our used Notgettingititudinosity. From alphavil Thu Mar 17 16:20:21 2005 From: alphavil (Alphaville) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:20:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings (Kent Johnson) In-Reply-To: <4239AA45.13869.1B4A931@localhost> References: <200503171620.j2HGKn0t011415@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <4239AA45.13869.1B4A931@localhost> Message-ID: <4239F495.8010401@ix.netcom.com> http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ Iraqi 'Rape Rooms' Found At Air Force Academy Academy Changes--- Rape Now An Elective, Not A Requirement By JOHN PURERUSEIA The Assassinated Press Colorado Springs, Colo., Mar. 19 ? Pentagon officials arrive at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo., today to begin covering up allegations of sexual assault lodged by dozens of hysterical female cadets. Overly wrought female cadets at the school say they have been victimized by their own countrymen, according to correspondent John Pureruseia, who reported the story for KUHM, the ABC Late Night Cable News affiliate in Denver. Dozens of neurotic female cadets claim they were punished after telling the school they were sexually assaulted by classmates in 'rape rooms' that incorporate the successful design of the 'rape rooms' maintained by the Baathist regime in Baghdad. "Preposterous," countered Air Force spokesperson, Madeline Allbright, "We here at the Air Force are perfectly capable of maintaining our own rape rooms. We don't need Odai Hussein", a reference to one of Saddam Hussein's sadistic sons, "to tell us how to construct a 'rape room.'" The White House also denied that this was an instance of the 'pot calling the kettle black.' "Our rapes share nothing in common with Iraqi rapes," said a confident, Ari Fleischer. "They prefer doggy style. We moved onto anal a long time ago." The women, who asked that their names be kept confidential until their agents had concluded negotiations with various men's magazines, all told Pureruseia similar stories about being afraid to report sexual attacks by fellow cadets. Those who did report and seek help from academy officials say they suffered retaliation through reprimands and threats of expulsion. Scared Voiceless "If the administration doesn't kick you out, the rest of the cadets will, so don't report it," said one cadet. "The message is rape is acceptable so don't say anything about it," said a second cadet. "If you report you are crazy because no one is going to believe you," a third cadet said. Saddam Made Me Do It Many of the male cadets blamed news reports of Saddam Hussein's son's ability to rape the Iraqi population at will including women, men, children and livestock. "I fucked a lot of livestock on the family farm back in Texas," admitted Air Force cadet, Frank Bush. "But I despaired of ever having a woman until I came to the Air Force Academy and the brass showed me the Saddam Hussein 'rape rooms." Cadets Learn About Other Cultures: Imbibe A Little BaghDaDa "The 'rape rooms' are a part of our trying to teach our cadets to think like the Iraqi regime," said Air Force trainer, Michael Ledeen. "How are they gonna know what to do when they assume a leadership role in Baghdad." Air Force Denies Odai Was Spotted At A 'Rape Party' Academy officials vehemently deny that Odai Hussein was seen partying down with other cadets at a bash in the plebes dorm in October of 2002. "That's a lie. It was one of our cadets dressed up like Odai. I think it was Halloween," countered Major Ledeen. Senate To Plug The Holes The allegations prompted Sens. Wayne Allard, R-Colo., and John Warner, R-Va., to call for a Pentagon coverup, which is slated to start today. The office of Air Force Secretary James Roche announced Friday that a special review panel had been formed to review why sexual assault policies have gone public in the military branch, "with a particular emphasis on the Air Force Academy," just outside Colorado Springs, Colo. "This has been going on for a long time. This is institutionalized. But we'll go through the motions if we have to." "We got to produce killers. People willing to murder many thousands of anonymous victims at a time. We consider rapes at the academy a very important teaching tool. A very important part of the dehumanizing process that takes the average Lotus eating, pot smoking, rock listening American shit bag, and turns him into a homicidal sociopath willing to drop massive ordnance on civilian populations," said Colonel Curtis LeMay Jr. One former cadet said that when she told the Air Force she had been raped by an upperclassman, she was harassed, and then officially reprimanded for having sex in one of the rape rooms. She eventually dropped out of the academy. "You don't have a voice at all," she said. "I just remember being so scared." The news investigation also revealed that, like Odai's rape rooms, these are far from isolated charges. The Air Force Academy has confirmed that since 1996, 99 cases of sexual assault have been reported to the academy's own hotline. Another cadet confessed to selling the hotline tapes to a 976 call in phone sex company based in Langley, VA. The company, College Girls Gone And Got Themselves Raped, would not disclose figures but said the hotline tapes do a brisk business among the military, corporate and intelligence communities. The military plans to set aside part of its budget so its men in uniform can make 976 calls on special triple X phone cards. "The boys have got to blow off a little steam or we get too many volunteers for KP and the cream corn is full of semen. That's why we got private food services for most of the units. That food's humped in the factories and then pressure cooked at very high temperatures." U.S. Military Plans To Use Baghdad Rape Rooms "U.S. forces will need a good fuck once Baghdad is occupied and prostitutes will be in short supply. Odai's rape rooms will make handy bordellos with all the toys our boys love and deserve," said General Mary Alice DeGrady. No Successful Courts-Martial Because of the allegations, no cadets have been court-martialed for sexual assaulting another cadet, according to General John Dillinger, the superintendent of the Air Force Academy. "Cadet assaulting cadet? None that I'm aware of have been successfully court- martialed. We intend to drive women out of the military one way or another. Why not use a method, perfected by the Iraqis, where you can get your jollies off at the same time?" said Dillinger. Dillinger said that since this story first surfaced, he's begun meeting with groups of cadets, including some of the alleged victims of sexual assault and that their accounts were not being taken seriously. "We see no advantage in believing them," Dillinger said. This is not the first time allegations of sexual assault patterned after Saddam's sadistic rape rooms have arisen at the Air Force Academy. After several incidents in 1993, officials admitted they had a serious problem resulting from the 1991 Gulf War and took steps to cover things up. Two years later, a General Accounting Office investigation uncovered serious problems at the academy with sexual misconduct including "unwelcome deliberate physical conduct of a sexual nature." The superintendent pledged that he would not fix the problem. "We are not going to let Odai Hussein ruin the good name of this academy," he said. > > From halvard Thu Mar 17 17:19:12 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:19:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050317133920.01088f70@cyrus.undsmhs.net> Message-ID: For the whole truth about Cheetah, of course, one needs to turn to my wife Lynda Schor's story about the famous beast. It was in the Animals issue of Witness a while back and is in her new story collection *The Body Parts Shop* (out from FC2 in just a minute or two). Hal "I judge a woman and a horse by the same criteria: legs, head, and rear end." --Elizabeth Arden Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ { At 11:08 AM 3/17/2005 -0600, David Graham wrote: { { >I've tried & failed to write a poem about a factoid I picked up just a few { >years back--so I'll offer it to you all. It turns out that Cheetah is still { >alive. Isn't that amazing? I believe he's the oldest chimp on record. In { >his 70s now, as I recall, living in retirement somewhere in California. He { >made movies up into the 1960s, unheard of for an adult chimp. { { David et al., { { The news about Cheetah's "successful retirement" surfaced about two { years ago, about the same time as more research indicating that chimps { were the species most closely related to humans. I can't provide a { relevant poem, but I can provide a little "light relief" that appeared on { another list in response to these news items. { { Richard W. Wilsnack { rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu { { ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- { { >WASHINGTON (May 19, 2003 6:11 p.m. EDT) - Chimpanzees are more { >closely related to people than to gorillas or other primates and probably { >should be included in the human branch of the family tree, a research { >team says. { { Yada, yada, yada. I tried to convince Dave Garroway of that, and what { did I get? He kicked me off the Today show and refused to renew my { contact. Cheetah got off better only because he had a better agent and { he played kiss-the-banana with the studio execs. Those late-blooming { pseudo-liberal primatologists can go climb a tree! { { J. Fred Muggs, Corresponding Secretary { Aging Primate Eco-MArxist Network { { ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From bardo Thu Mar 17 17:52:47 2005 From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:52:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings References: <20050317155040.11381.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003b01c52b44$0a070590$3a95c044@MULDER> Try http://chronicle.com/jobs/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings > Hi, I think I've seen the film by Wiseman, lots of > cross cut interviews with patients? Kent, how are > you? I always feel that - after the Lacan letters > incident - that you are a friend but I may be wrong. > I thought they were hard on you, by the way. The > letters were published in?? I think this journal > published some of mine too, fuck! > Can you give me some advice about seeking lecturing in > creative writing in the US? > best wishes and Hi to Sarah, > Paul Murphy > www.theengine.net > --- spearlstein at comcast.net wrote: >> >> Hey Kent, >> The movie is not so, so erotic - it's a >> dark comedy about a cult of my lil' pony collectors >> in their late 20s, early 30s.... gothed out geeks >> who LARP (Live Action Role Play) with ponies and >> stuffed animals, while they are having a documentary >> made about them by the evil "Mega-Toy" >> corporation... I can't tell you the end, but if you >> go to "Pony Trouble" on the web you can see for >> yourself.. It's a bit gory, however no worse than >> hollywood. I am in a cabaret group, however, The >> Illegitimate Theatre Company, who is doing an all >> women's musical rendition of Titticut Follies; the >> documentary on a mental hospital made in the late >> 60s by Frederick Wiseman.... we're going for a dark, >> erotic Lotte Lenya effect. I am going to be away in >> San Diego for the Popular Culture Association's >> annual conference, where I'll be presenting a paper >> on Sylvia Plath and the movie Sylvia; why the movie >> failed, basically. I am actually going with a >> friend (who is co-writing the paper wit! >> h me) who is a student of Ammiel (sp?) Alcalay at >> Brooklyn College; she said they read your letter in >> class!!! (Oy, what a small world we live in!). I >> haven't been able to do anything in regards to >> Ammiel, as life just became rather chaotic this >> week, but I was impressed by the courage of your >> convictions. In regards to Abu Ghraib, and the >> erotic poem... sounds interesting, I'm helping to >> organize the March 20th anti-war rally in Boston. >> Send me a poem! I'll send you one of mine. >> >> peace, >> Sarah Pearlstein >> >> >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> >> > Sorry, Sarah: >> > >> > It's Thursday 24th, 7 PM. >> > >> > Hope to see you there! >> > >> > Good luck with the movie. Is it really erotic, as >> you say? I am going >> > to read an erotic poem at the reading--a poem >> about Abu Ghraib. >> > >> > Kent >> > _______________________________________________ >> >?w-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From MillB Thu Mar 17 18:07:33 2005 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:07:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: California Poet Laurete Message-ID: The California Arts Council has chosen three strong Southern California voices as candidates for state Poet Laureate. The names will be forwarded to the governor, who will pick one to send to the State Senate for confirmation. In alphabetical order, they are: Wanda Coleman, Marina Del Rey (http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?45442B7C000C070400) Carol Muske Dukes, Los Angeles (http://www.carolmuskedukes.com/) Luis J. Rodriguez, San Fernando (http://www.luisjrodriguez.com/) Al Young, Berkeley (http://www.onlinepoetryclassro om.org/poets/poets.cfm?prmID=481) If you are a Californian and have a strong opinion about who would serve California best, make it known to the governor at: _http://www.govmail.ca.gov/_ (http://www.govmail.ca.gov/) Cheers, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Thu Mar 17 18:53:31 2005 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:53:31 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: California Poet Laurete Message-ID: <9718757.1111103611454.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> How do I address him? Da Arnold? - Jim p.s. - My money's on Coleman. -----Original Message----- From: MillB at aol.com Sent: Mar 17, 2005 4:07 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: California Poet Laurete The California Arts Council has chosen three strong Southern California voices as candidates for state Poet Laureate. The names will be forwarded to the governor, who will pick one to send to the State Senate for confirmation. In alphabetical order, they are: Wanda Coleman, Marina Del Rey (http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?45442B7C000C070400) Carol Muske Dukes, Los Angeles (http://www.carolmuskedukes.com/) Luis J. Rodriguez, San Fernando (http://www.luisjrodriguez.com/) Al Young, Berkeley (http://www.onlinepoetryclassro om.org/poets/poets.cfm?prmID=481) If you are a Californian and have a strong opinion about who would serve California best, make it known to the governor at: _http://www.govmail.ca.gov/_ (http://www.govmail.ca.gov/) Cheers, Mill "The new development will only last for one week." From grahamd Thu Mar 17 19:16:00 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:16:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: California Poet Laurete In-Reply-To: <9718757.1111103611454.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: on 3/17/05 5:53 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote: > How do I address him? Da Arnold? > > - Jim > > p.s. - My money's on Coleman. I have no money and little interest, but I'd probably pick Al Young--the elder statesman, as it were. All worthy enough candidates, though. Wonder if Ferlinghetti made the short list? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From mandolin Fri Mar 18 00:44:57 2005 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:44:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Monkey Shining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1aa731c6b139849a7a2bf835090ec6b6@mac.com> On Mar 17, 2005, at 9:33 AM, Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > mother of christ... > > Is this normal behavior for chimps? Chimps, yes, Bonobos, no. Adult chimps are extremely dangerous animals, but their close cousins the bonobos (ince called "pygmy chimps" though they're not much smaller) would literally rather fuck than fight. > Not that this has to do with poetry. > > Or Carlo... > > Actually this sounds like any normal Sunday year's ago in my mother's > house...sorry, just feeling a little sentimental on St. Paddy's... > > I am really a little tormented by this story > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Paul Lake wrote: > >> Monkeys have been shining a little less for me the last couple of >> weeks >> after reading about the man who was attacked by two chimps he'd come >> to >> visit. He actually brought one of them a birthday cake. Then two of >> them got >> out of their cage and attacked him. Keep in mind that a chimp is said >> to be >> stronger than a grown man. They bit off all ten of his fingers, his >> face >> (one eye, nose, lips, one cheek), his penis, one buttock and >> shattered one >> foot. If and when the poor man comes out of the critical unit and >> discovers >> the way he's been disfigured and maimed, he may wish the doctors >> hadn't >> revised him. Go get those damned monkeys, leopards and snakes! >> >> Paul Lake >> >> >> >> >> On 3/16/05 11:13 AM, "Alphaville" wrote: >> >>> A Lesson in Discovery Channel Hermeneutics >>> >>> >>> In Kenya, vervet monkeys take the ground >>> Until a sentry gives a chattering bark, >>> Which in the simple vervet lexicon >>> Means /snake, /and connotes/ evil/, /death /and /dark/. >>> Or else the sentry makes a guttural sound >>> That translates in our own more complex tongue >>> To /hawk /or /eagle/ circling for prey, >>> And sends the monkeys scampering. Either way, >>> The monkeys must take action--jump or flee >>> Across the ground or to a sheltering tree. >>> Should one, instead, hearing a sentry speak, >>> Decide to deconstruct the fellow's meaning >>> And prove all urgent chattering oblique, >>> A python's fang or hawk's cruel curving beak >>> Will punctuate the monkey's idle preening, >>> Ending his dissertation in mid-squeak. >>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> --- >>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >>> >>> >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 18 10:25:56 2005 From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:25:56 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rebecca Seiferle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <420008C400029718@ims3d.cp.tin.it> My silence is due to 2 reasons, bad one first: pc crash, no connection, no word, no nothing, just a black box, typing at the Sheraton in this moment; and the Good One: Rebecca Seiferle is here in Bolzano, Italy, for a poetry reading and a workshop: _Writing with senses_ at the Language Fair second edition: http://www.fieralingue.it/2005/ She had her reading this morning accompanied by the Maestro from Malta, flute improvisation, in a fully booked room (80) people. If you wish, there is an interesting interview with Rebecca Seiferle here: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=970 or on the fieralingue site directly under the Fair, moreover you can read some of her poetry here: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=28 or translated into Italian on my blog: http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ She is the publisher and the editor of: http://www.thedrunkenboat.com/seiferle.htm I feel particularly privileged, and I am sorry that my contact with my by now _favorite list_ is so erratic at the moment, I do hope I'll solve my technical problems soon (the metaphysical ones as well, but that might take a little longer...) My best wishes from a full spring time here Anny Ballardini From paul.lake Fri Mar 18 04:00:15 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:00:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking advice on poetry readings (Kent Johnson) In-Reply-To: <4239AA45.13869.1B4A931@localhost> Message-ID: On 3/17/05 3:03 PM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > On 17 Mar 2005 at 15:30, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: >> Get Serious >> Have any unfaked pomes about Uday and KooSay?Especially the part when >> they stroll into a highschool and point goon shotguns at the prettiest >> girl(s), yeah, Saleh, and then have their teacher >> deliver the girl (girls) to 77 Sunset Virgins Strip Palacewhere they >> are served the sweetest, purest, pellucid hallucinogenic grapes and >> then celebrate under documentary porno video hilarious rapes. >> Yeah, Kent, then you can tell child RadLibs how the Moronfailed to >> free 20 million from Saddam's insane trip tell everyone in a quasi >> metrical rant tricked out a la Chappaquidick Kennedy in lugubrious >> cant >> A crowd of poets waving their poems >> Is merely a crowd waving its fists - >> And not one swung at Saddam, >> Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, >> Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating >> Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. > > Notgettingititudinosity > Thanks to John Bales, who coined the word. > > It hurts each time some new-encountered "we" > Rejects you when you think that your enthused > Excitement ought to pay your member?s fee -- > We all have been both guilty and accused > Of notgettingititudinosity. > > At first I thought perhaps it could be me > Who?d missed why you were hostile and confused -- > But one by one the whole group seemed to be > Persuaded by your comments that you oozed > Notgettingititudinosity. > > You haven't given us a clue to see > Why you are angry; we were just amused > At least at first until you made so free > With daily, nightly, hourly unexcused > Notgettingititudinosity. > > If unpursued the guilty still will flee > Perhaps it?s likewise true that the abused > Attack potential friends whom they don?t see > As friendly since they?re blinded by a bruised > Notgettingititudinosity. > > There may be grounds on which we can agree -- > And all the web is out there to be cruised -- > But strong good-will on all sides is the key > To properly disposing of our used > Notgettingititudinosity. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > Nice. I get it! --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From JforJames Fri Mar 18 11:12:11 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:12:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry Message-ID: <85.23b0df4f.2f6c57db@aol.com> Stealing dozens of poems from various authors...one wonders why others didn't think of this ingenious method of becoming famous while avoiding the trap of a recognizable style. To be kind, perhaps Amari merely misunderstood the premise behind translation, thinking it meant slapping a new title on the poem, altering a few words, while casually omitting the original author's name. Finnegan At 10:14 AM 3/17/2005, Edward Byrne wrote: >I thought some on the list might find this interesting. > >I have received a letter from A.T. van 't Hof, Editor of >Po?ziepamflet.nl, informing me that in preparation for an article on >a poem by Roisin Tierney, the poem was discovered published elsewhere >"almost word for word" under a different title by the Algerian poet >Amari Hamadene. Upon further research on the internet, it also was >discovered many of Hamadene's published poems are actually >plagiarized from poems by other published poets, including a poem by >Jared Carter that appeared in Valparaiso Poetry Review. > >Hamadene has published widely in Europe, but also has published >poetry in a number of literary journals in the U.S., including The >Mississippi Review, The Seneca Review, 13th Warrior, Main Street Rag, >etc. In addition, Hamadene apparently has a U.S. publisher that is >about to publish a book of poems. > >The article about Hamadene's poetry and some examples of the >plagiarized poetry can be seen at the following: > >http://1hundred1.20six.nl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Fri Mar 18 11:26:34 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:26:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: <85.23b0df4f.2f6c57db@aol.com> Message-ID: Amari Hamadine has a website that you can easily find via Google. Lots of poems there. Hal "I judge a woman and a horse by the same criteria: legs, head, and rear end." --Elizabeth Arden Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ Stealing dozens of poems from various authors...one wonders why others didn't think of this ingenious method of becoming famous while avoiding the trap of a recognizable style. To be kind, perhaps Amari merely misunderstood the premise behind translation, thinking it meant slapping a new title on the poem, altering a few words, while casually omitting the original author's name. Finnegan At 10:14 AM 3/17/2005, Edward Byrne wrote: >I thought some on the list might find this interesting. > >I have received a letter from A.T. van 't Hof, Editor of >Po?ziepamflet.nl, informing me that in preparation for an article on >a poem by Roisin Tierney, the poem was discovered published elsewhere >"almost word for word" under a different title by the Algerian poet >Amari Hamadene. Upon further research on the internet, it also was >discovered many of Hamadene's published poems are actually >plagiarized from poems by other published poets, including a poem by >Jared Carter that appeared in Valparaiso Poetry Review. > >Hamadene has published widely in Europe, but also has published >poetry in a number of literary journals in the U.S., including The >Mississippi Review, The Seneca Review, 13th Warrior, Main Street Rag, >etc. In addition, Hamadene apparently has a U.S. publisher that is >about to publish a book of poems. > >The article about Hamadene's poetry and some examples of the >plagiarized poetry can be seen at the following: > >http://1hundred1.20six.nl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson Fri Mar 18 11:59:47 2005 From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:59:47 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Kurihara Message-ID: >From John Bradley, editor of Atomic Ghost: Poets Respond to the Nuclear Age. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: John Bradley Subject: Kurihara Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:23:19 -0800 (PST) Size: 4066 URL: From gmguddi Fri Mar 18 12:28:53 2005 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:28:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <85.23b0df4f.2f6c57db@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050318112806.02663ec0@mail.ilstu.edu> What's the exact quote from TSE: Good writers borrow. Great ones steal. ?? What's the exact phrasing? gabriel At 10:26 AM 3/18/2005, Halvard Johnson wrote: >Amari Hamadine has a website that you can easily find via >Google. Lots of poems there. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Fri Mar 18 12:58:47 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:58:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050318112806.02663ec0@mail.ilstu.edu> References: Message-ID: <423AD087.16364.4FCBD9@localhost> On 18 Mar 2005 at 11:28, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > What's the exact quote from TSE: Good writers borrow. Great ones > steal. ?? What's the exact phrasing? One of the surest of tests is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different from that from which it was torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest. --T.S. Eliot (1888-1965). "Philip Massinger", The Sacred Wood: Essays on Poetry and Criticism. 1922. From gmguddi Fri Mar 18 13:11:57 2005 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:11:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: <423AD087.16364.4FCBD9@localhost> References: <423AD087.16364.4FCBD9@localhost> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050318120911.026b1ec0@mail.ilstu.edu> Thanks, Marcus. Somehow I'd remember it as good writers v great writers. Here it is as bad writers v good writers. thanks for posting this. g At 11:58 AM 3/18/2005, Marcus Bales wrote: >On 18 Mar 2005 at 11:28, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > What's the exact quote from TSE: Good writers borrow. Great ones > > steal. ?? What's the exact phrasing? > >One of the surest of tests is the way in which a poet borrows. >Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what >they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least >something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of >feeling which is unique, utterly different from that from which it >was torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no >cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in >time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest. --T.S. Eliot >(1888-1965). "Philip Massinger", The Sacred Wood: Essays on Poetry >and Criticism. 1922. From cstroffo Fri Mar 18 14:12:23 2005 From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:12:23 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Finnegan! Message-ID: <200503181850.j2IIn85M027678@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> or ANY method.... I like that you use the word TRAP here-- the idea of "recognizable style" or "signature style' seems still to dominate--as in visual art and music-- across the spectrum of styles called poetry. There may be some exceptions, but generally it is still those with the most recognizable style who get the most play. Maybe later they're "allowed" to branch out. But those who tend to work in different styles---to me generally the more interesting (though there are exceptions)--in all the above arts, have a harder time of getting the gate-keeper, media attention, etc. I do think that's a problem, but what to do? ---------- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry Date: Fri, Mar 18, 2005, 8:12 AM this ingenious method of becoming famous while avoiding the trap of a recognizable style. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Fri Mar 18 06:51:25 2005 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:51:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plagiarized Poetry In-Reply-To: <423AD087.16364.4FCBD9@localhost> Message-ID: On 3/18/05 11:58 AM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > the bad poet throws it into something which has no > cohesion. A recipe for postmodern poetry. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jeff.newberry Fri Mar 18 14:25:56 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:25:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Robinson Jeffers Message-ID: <731bb17a05031811256cc124e0@mail.gmail.com> Caramel Point Robinson Jeffers The extraordinary patience of things! This beautiful place defaced with a crop of surburban houses- How beautiful when we first beheld it, Unbroken field of poppy and lupin walled with clean cliffs; No intrusion but two or three horses pasturing, Or a few milch cows rubbing their flanks on the outcrop rockheads- Now the spoiler has come: does it care? Not faintly. It has all time. It knows the people are a tide That swells and in time will ebb, and all Their works dissolve. Meanwhile the image of the pristine beauty Lives in the very grain of the granite, Safe as the endless ocean that climbs our cliff.-As for us: We must uncenter our minds from ourselves; We must unhumanize our views a little, and become confident As the rock and ocean that we were made from. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From hruggier Fri Mar 18 14:39:12 2005 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:39:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050317133920.01088f70@cyrus.undsmhs.net> Message-ID: <009e01c52bf2$2a081560$1c0c9942@Helen> Here's my poem for the month while we're on the subject: gone to bed with Bonzo - night night, Ronnie xxx ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Wilsnack" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Chimps > At 11:08 AM 3/17/2005 -0600, David Graham wrote: > >>I've tried & failed to write a poem about a factoid I picked up just a few >>years back--so I'll offer it to you all. It turns out that Cheetah is >>still >>alive. Isn't that amazing? I believe he's the oldest chimp on record. >>In >>his 70s now, as I recall, living in retirement somewhere in California. >>He >>made movies up into the 1960s, unheard of for an adult chimp. > > David et al., > > The news about Cheetah's "successful retirement" surfaced about two > years ago, about the same time as more research indicating that chimps > were the species most closely related to humans. I can't provide a > relevant poem, but I can provide a little "light relief" that appeared on > another list in response to these news items. > > Richard W. Wilsnack > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>WASHINGTON (May 19, 2003 6:11 p.m. EDT) - Chimpanzees are more >>closely related to people than to gorillas or other primates and probably >>should be included in the human branch of the family tree, a research >>team says. > > Yada, yada, yada. I tried to convince Dave Garroway of that, and what > did I get? He kicked me off the Today show and refused to renew my > contact. Cheetah got off better only because he had a better agent and > he played kiss-the-banana with the studio execs. Those late-blooming > pseudo-liberal primatologists can go climb a tree! > > J. Fred Muggs, Corresponding Secretary > Aging Primate Eco-MArxist Network > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 18 15:09:15 2005 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:09:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] computers References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050317133920.01088f70@cyrus.undsmhs.net> <009e01c52bf2$2a081560$1c0c9942@Helen> Message-ID: <007c01c52bf6$5c251350$34df3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> I am a little out of date with this mail, but I remember I read a mail by James Finnegan on being tired of this pc, and the energy/time it drains out of you (much better words, I know), when it all turned into a no-way-you-can-do-anything-here on the pc for me. And this evening I switched on, just out of duty, to make sure the usual message appeared telling me the connection was off, and to wait for it to automatically switch off on its own, as it has been doing for about five days, but no, it connected, and I am on, and it is such a wonderful feeling, to be able to read all the mails, this is what I think I know --- in this moment --- but it was quite unusual and different to be so distant from / I know I should avoid it / all my people, and from my usual newspapers, from my habitual internet routes that I try endlessly to broaden, that I am grateful to this little black object for working, I am indeed, take care, anny Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky From JforJames Fri Mar 18 15:13:29 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:13:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps Message-ID: Not sure about that "listens ironically," but here's short one from an ekphrastic site... http://www.english.emory.edu/classes/paintings&poems/szymborska.html Two Monkeys by Brueghel I keep dreaming of my graduation exam: in a window sit two chained monkeys, beyond the window floats the sky, and the sea splashes. I am taking an exam on the history of mankind: I stammer and flounder. One monkey, eyes fixed upon me, listens ironically, the other seems to be dozing-- and when silence follows a question, he prompts me with a soft jingling of the chain. --Wislawa Szymborska (trans. from the Polish by Magnus Kryski) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Fri Mar 18 15:18:51 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:18:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Robinson Jeffers In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05031811256cc124e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jeff, I must say I love the typo here in the title! "Caramel Point" is wonderful. Almost like a flavor at Dairy Queen. Reminds me of T. S. Eliot's famous poem "Little Giddyap" or Frost's "Toad Not Taken." I find the Jeffers, as always, both creepy and compelling. Interesting how relentlessly he must anthropomorphize in his denials of the values of humanism. I mean, with phrases like "confident/ as the rock and ocean" he sounds for all the world like Robert Bly, doesn't he? on 3/18/05 1:25 PM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: > Caramel Point > Robinson Jeffers > > The extraordinary patience of things! > This beautiful place defaced with a crop of surburban houses- > How beautiful when we first beheld it, > Unbroken field of poppy and lupin walled with clean cliffs; > No intrusion but two or three horses pasturing, > Or a few milch cows rubbing their flanks on the outcrop rockheads- > Now the spoiler has come: does it care? > Not faintly. It has all time. It knows the people are a tide > That swells and in time will ebb, and all > Their works dissolve. Meanwhile the image of the pristine beauty > Lives in the very grain of the granite, > Safe as the endless ocean that climbs our cliff.-As for us: > We must uncenter our minds from ourselves; > We must unhumanize our views a little, and become confident > As the rock and ocean that we were made from. > > > > Jeff Newberry ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From halvard Fri Mar 18 15:25:39 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:25:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Robinson Jeffers In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05031811256cc124e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yummy! But don't you mean "Carmel Point"? Hal { Caramel Point { Robinson Jeffers { { The extraordinary patience of things! { This beautiful place defaced with a crop of surburban houses- { How beautiful when we first beheld it, { Unbroken field of poppy and lupin walled with clean cliffs; { No intrusion but two or three horses pasturing, { Or a few milch cows rubbing their flanks on the outcrop rockheads- { Now the spoiler has come: does it care? { Not faintly. It has all time. It knows the people are a tide { That swells and in time will ebb, and all { Their works dissolve. Meanwhile the image of the pristine beauty { Lives in the very grain of the granite, { Safe as the endless ocean that climbs our cliff.-As for us: { We must uncenter our minds from ourselves; { We must unhumanize our views a little, and become confident { As the rock and ocean that we were made from. { { { { Jeff Newberry { { -- { "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. { It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz { { Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From halvard Fri Mar 18 15:28:02 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:28:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To listen ironically is to hear one thing but mean to hear another. Hal Not sure about that "listens ironically," but here's short one from an ekphrastic site... http://www.english.emory.edu/classes/paintings&poems/szymborska.html Two Monkeys by Brueghel I keep dreaming of my graduation exam: in a window sit two chained monkeys, beyond the window floats the sky, and the sea splashes. I am taking an exam on the history of mankind: I stammer and flounder. One monkey, eyes fixed upon me, listens ironically, the other seems to be dozing-- and when silence follows a question, he prompts me with a soft jingling of the chain. --Wislawa Szymborska (trans. from the Polish by Magnus Kryski) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Fri Mar 18 15:32:30 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:32:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Robinson Jeffers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { Reminds me of T. S. Eliot's famous poem "Little Giddyap" or Frost's "Toad { Not Taken." Or even Chaucer's The Canterbury Tails? { { I find the Jeffers, as always, both creepy and compelling. Interesting how { relentlessly he must anthropomorphize in his denials of the values of { humanism. I mean, with phrases like "confident/ as the rock and ocean" he { sounds for all the world like Robert Bly, doesn't he? Hmm, I wasn't aware that Bly did rocks and oceans. He's one o' them landlocked poets, methinks, with maybe a stream or rivulet or, when in an expansive mode/mood, even a lake. Hal From JforJames Fri Mar 18 15:39:37 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:39:37 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Robinson Jeffers Message-ID: <29.6f41a1be.2f6c9689@aol.com> In a message dated 3/18/2005 3:16:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: love the typo here in the title! "Caramel Point" is wonderful. Almost like a flavor at Dairy Queen David, when Jeffers moved there it was a barren, rocky jut of land with a few twisted pines, but now that its a tony community of boutiques and restaurants the townfolk decided to sweeten the name. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Fri Mar 18 16:00:52 2005 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:00:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Briny Bly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 3/18/05 2:32 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote: > Hmm, I wasn't aware that Bly did rocks and oceans. He's one o' them > landlocked poets, methinks, with maybe a stream or rivulet or, when in > an expansive mode/mood, even a lake. > > Hal Oh? Well, Bly pretty much covers the universe, Hal. His back forty is large, and contains multitudes, dontcha know. How 'bout this?-- New Testaments are escaping . . . dressed as women . . . they go off after dark. And Plato! Plato . . . Plato wants to go backwards. . . . He wants to hurry back up the river of time, so be can end as some blob of sea flesh rotting on an Australian beach. Or this-- Now the whole nation starts to whirl, the end of the Republic breaks off, Europe comes to take revenge, the mad beast covered with European hair rushes through the mesa bushes in Mendocino County, pigs rush toward the cliff, the waters underneath part: in one ocean luminous globes float up (in them hairy and ecstatic men?) in the other, the teeth mother, naked at last. Or perhaps-- Meanwhile, out on the China Sea, immense gray bodies are floating, born in Roanoke, the ocean on both sides expanding, "buoyed on the dense marine." ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From jeff.newberry Fri Mar 18 16:12:38 2005 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:12:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Robinson Jeffers In-Reply-To: <29.6f41a1be.2f6c9689@aol.com> References: <29.6f41a1be.2f6c9689@aol.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a050318131253ebefbc@mail.gmail.com> Ah...geez. That'll teach me to read my damn subjects before I hit the send button... Jeff On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:39:37 EST, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 3/18/2005 3:16:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > love the typo here in the title! "Caramel Point" is > wonderful. Almost like a flavor at Dairy Queen > David, when Jeffers moved there it was a barren, rocky > jut of land with a few twisted pines, but now that > its a tony community of boutiques and restaurants > the townfolk decided to sweeten the name. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From halvard Fri Mar 18 16:56:20 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:56:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Briny Bly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Made ya look! Made ya look! Reminds me of Stephen Crane's surf-tossed open-boaters dreaming of chickens and laundry flapping in the prairie breeze, just the other way around. Bly, for me, will always be driving by night on one of those midwestern highways feeling their way around in the dark. Hal { > Hmm, I wasn't aware that Bly did rocks and oceans. He's one o' them { > landlocked poets, methinks, with maybe a stream or rivulet or, when in { > an expansive mode/mood, even a lake. { > { > Hal { { { Oh? Well, Bly pretty much covers the universe, Hal. His back forty is { large, and contains multitudes, dontcha know. { { { How 'bout this?-- { { New Testaments are escaping . . . dressed as women . . . { they go off after dark. { And Plato! Plato . . . Plato wants to go backwards. . . . { He wants to hurry back up the river of time, so be can { end as some blob of sea flesh rotting on an { Australian beach. { { Or this-- { { { Now the whole nation starts to whirl, { the end of the Republic breaks off, { Europe comes to take revenge, { the mad beast covered with European hair rushes { through the mesa bushes in Mendocino County, { pigs rush toward the cliff, { the waters underneath part: in one ocean luminous { globes float up (in them hairy and ecstatic men?) { in the other, the teeth mother, naked at last. { { { Or perhaps-- { { Meanwhile, out on the China Sea, { immense gray bodies are floating, { born in Roanoke, { the ocean on both sides expanding, "buoyed on the { dense marine." { { ==================================================== { David Graham { grahamd at ripon.edu { Home Page: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html { Poetry Library: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html { ==================================================== { { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From JforJames Fri Mar 18 19:34:02 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:34:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Finnegan! Message-ID: <194.3ae89d20.2f6ccd7a@aol.com> In a message dated 3/18/2005 1:51:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > or ANY method.... > I like that you use the word TRAP here-- > the idea of "recognizable style" or "signature style' > seems still to dominate--as in visual art and music-- > across the spectrum of styles called poetry. > There may be some exceptions, but generally > it is still those with the most recognizable style > who get the most play. Maybe later they're "allowed" > to branch out. But those who tend to work in different > styles---to me generally the more interesting (though > there are exceptions)--in all the above arts, > have a harder time of getting the gate-keeper, media > attention, etc. I do think that's a problem, but what to do? > Chris, I can argue for or against this one. I do think some poets are trapped in their signature styles. I guess I would say that's okay if the poet consciously chooses the confinement; because he/she believes she/he hasn't found the poems s/he wants to write yet. Always feels that the last poem came up short somehow. But if it's a matter of facility or comfort along a known path, then it's a problem. Fear of falling/failing, too, is a real impediment to those who had success or acclaim for a certain kind of art. I know art gallery owners who have put major pressure on their artists to keep producing the same kind of art. The virtues of the known style are lauded; moving beyond a very narrow range of deviation is frowned upon. Philip Guston was an example of an artist who had the cajones to break away from what he was known for, and, in the end it's his later cartoony pieces that he'll now be remembered for. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Mar 19 11:56:04 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:56:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Wyoming Poet Laureate David Romtvedt Message-ID: <1c2.24b03af4.2f6db3a4@aol.com> http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2005/03/19/news/wyoming/9dc2d700c409 8ed487256fc8005022a2.txt SHOSHONI -- Wyoming Poet Laureate David Romtvedt has spent a lot of time working with kids, so he has little difficulty exploring rhythm and the spoken word with students in workshops around Wyoming. "I worked for about 10 years regularly as an artist in residence through state arts councils primarily in Alaska, Washington, Montana, a little bit in New York, Arkansas, Nevada and some other states, but mostly within the Pacific Northwest and Montana," he said during a recent two-day session in Shoshoni. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Sat Mar 19 12:20:39 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:20:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Wyoming Poet Laureate David Romtvedt Message-ID: <111.464e8cb0.2f6db967@cs.com> In a message dated 3/19/2005 10:56:35 AM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2005/03/19/news/wyoming/9dc2d700c4098ed487256fc8005022a2.txt He had a book a few years back that I liked a lot--How Many Horses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Mar 19 17:50:33 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:50:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is being ruined by establishment Message-ID: http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1441233,00.html Poetry is being ruined by establishment - festival chief Richard Jinman Saturday March 19, 2005 The Guardian British poetry has become almost irrelevant, because the establishment has closed ranks against fresh ideas and forms, the director of an experiment called Text Festival said yesterday. "[It] has run out of steam," Tony Trehy said. "There's nowhere for it to go other than becoming a mild entertainment or an anachronism." Mr Trehy describes the festival, which opens today in Bury, Greater Manchester, as a declaration of war against the poetry establishment. He hopes it will change the staid image of the poet by giving a stage to poets who mix text with everything from music, dance and mime to graphic design and mathematics. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad Sat Mar 19 18:07:20 2005 From: tad (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:07:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is being ruined by establishment References: Message-ID: <002501c52cd8$6a052f90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Can we take up a collection to send Grumman to represent us? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 5:50 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is being ruined by establishment http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1441233,00.html Poetry is being ruined by establishment - festival chief Richard Jinman Saturday March 19, 2005 The Guardian British poetry has become almost irrelevant, because the establishment has closed ranks against fresh ideas and forms, the director of an experiment called Text Festival said yesterday. "[It] has run out of steam," Tony Trehy said. "There's nowhere for it to go other than becoming a mild entertainment or an anachronism." Mr Trehy describes the festival, which opens today in Bury, Greater Manchester, as a declaration of war against the poetry establishment. He hopes it will change the staid image of the poet by giving a stage to poets who mix text with everything from music, dance and mime to graphic design and mathematics. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Mar 19 18:11:42 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:11:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is being ruined by establishment Message-ID: <1a7.33f37fd2.2f6e0bae@aol.com> In a message dated 3/19/2005 6:07:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > Can we take up a collection to send Grumman to represent us? > > Good idea, Tad, but the list doesn't do PayPal nor VISA, MC or AX. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Mar 19 18:30:55 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:30:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is being ruined by establishment References: <1a7.33f37fd2.2f6e0bae@aol.com> Message-ID: <00c401c52cdb$b3343410$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Can we take up a collection to send Grumman to represent us? Good idea, Tad, but the list doesn't do PayPal nor VISA, MC or AX. Finnegan Besides, I wouldn't go unless Marcus could come, too. Incidentally, I don't know Tony Trehy, nor am I aware of any British mathematical poets. I'm very curious as to who and what will be in his show--and how he managed to get publicity for it in a real newspaper, which is more than our contingent of similar poets is ever able to do. Thanks for posting the data, James. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Mar 19 18:42:10 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:42:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Chimps Message-ID: <1aa.342e9779.2f6e12d2@aol.com> The Ape Who Painted Toward the end of his painting career, Congo was producing excellent circles, but nearly always filled them in immediately. -Alexander Alland, Jr., The Artistic Animal Toward the end the painter was subject to sudden fits of aimless pacing, sucking the end of his brush, his lips were permanently Indian Red, a pigment to which he had grown obsessively partial from time to time he would pause to examine an apple, turning it in his long, sensitive fingers, or fish a dust-mouse gently from under his bed not a hair displaced or moon for hours, sprawled on his favorite tire praying to his thumb how fortunate we are to have captured on film this miraculous thumb, in full career sweeping in a great assured acc from left to right trailing a gleaming Indian Red parabola counterclockwise, following its own law tailing up again, toward its beginning deftly dividing out from in then filling carefully the bowl of zero with precious red, horizon to horizon toward the end, the painter's cage was strewn with fallen suns, great bloody periods pages from some cosmic calendar while he grew more taciturn than ever. --Donald Finkel What Manner of Beast, 1981 Atheneum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo Sat Mar 19 20:54:44 2005 From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:54:44 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Finnegan Message-ID: <200503200133.j2K1WwMY234934@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Finnegan--- Thanks for this. I see your points--- C Chris, I can argue for or against this one. I do think some poets are trapped in their signature styles. I guess I would say that's okay if the poet consciously chooses the confinement; because he/she believes she/he hasn't found the poems s/he wants to write yet. Always feels that the last poem came up short somehow. But if it's a matter of facility or comfort along a known path, then it's a problem. Fear of falling/failing, too, is a real impediment to those who had success or acclaim for a certain kind of art. I know art gallery owners who have put major pressure on their artists to keep producing the same kind of art. The virtues of the known style are lauded; moving beyond a very narrow range of deviation is frowned upon. Philip Guston was an example of an artist who had the cajones to break away from what he was known for, and, in the end it's his later cartoony pieces that he'll now be remembered for. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul Sat Mar 19 20:42:56 2005 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:42:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry is being ruined by establishment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050319204246.K61075@kpaul.spinweb.net> poetry is dead long live poetry -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1441233,00.html > Poetry is being ruined by establishment - festival chief > > Richard Jinman > Saturday March 19, 2005 > The Guardian > > British poetry has become almost irrelevant, because the establishment has > closed ranks against fresh ideas and forms, the director of an experiment called > Text Festival said yesterday. > "[It] has run out of steam," Tony Trehy said. "There's nowhere for it to go > other than becoming a mild entertainment or an anachronism." > > Mr Trehy describes the festival, which opens today in Bury, Greater > Manchester, as a declaration of war against the poetry establishment. > > He hopes it will change the staid image of the poet by giving a stage to > poets who mix text with everything from music, dance and mime to graphic design > and mathematics. > From bobgrumman Sat Mar 19 21:18:37 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:18:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Finnegan References: <200503200133.j2K1WwMY234934@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <011401c52cf3$20b057f0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Re: [New-Poetry] Finnegan Philip Guston was an example of an artist who had the cajones to break away from what he was known for, and, in the end it's his later cartoony pieces that he'll now be remembered for-- Because they became his newer signature style. I'm all for a signature style. But it has to be large. You can't get trapped in a signature style, or form, or whatever, unless either you are incapable of exploiting it fully, or it's a poor signature style. I think that many poets search years to get a signature style or the equivalent, and it is they who achieve the most. But I'm biased because I only fairly recently started doing long division poems, and now do little else--because I think I can do a huge number of things (as a poet and illumagist--i.e., visual artist) in them. There's also the question of having several signature styles or the equivalent. I think of John M. Bennett who has done literally hundreds of sonnet-size poems with his personality all over them, but has done framed poems--poems with letters, words, graphics, or the like drawn in a rectangle around them--that are also instantly recognizable as Bennettian, and significantly different from his most usual ones. He's done many other Bennettian sets of poems, too. And I also have my "Poem poems," which are signature poems very similar to one another but not visual or mathematical. My purely visual poems are in no signature style--but some are as good as anything I've done. Common sense says stay with a form or style or whatever as long as you think you can make it do significantly new and worthwhile things for you. Interesting topic about which a lot more could be said. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Sun Mar 20 01:14:32 2005 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:14:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Finnegan In-Reply-To: <011401c52cf3$20b057f0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <423CCE78.8756.C2D377@localhost> On 19 Mar 2005 at 21:18, Bob Grumman wrote: > Philip > Guston was an example of an artist who had the cajones > to break away from what he was known for, and, in the end > it's his later cartoony pieces that he'll now be remembered > for-- > Because they became his newer signature style. > I'm all for a signature style. But it has to be large. You can't get > trapped in a signature style, or form, or whatever, unless either you > are incapable of exploiting it fully, or it's a poor signature style. > I think that many poets search years to get a signature style or the > equivalent, and it is they who achieve the most. But I'm biased > because I only fairly recently started doing long division poems, and > now do little else--because I think I can do a huge number of things > (as a poet and illumagist--i.e., visual artist) in them. > There's also the question of having several signature styles or the > equivalent. I think of John M. Bennett who has done literally hundreds > of sonnet-size poems with his personality all over them, but has done > framed poems--poemswithletters, words, graphics, or the like drawn in > a rectangle around them--that are also instantly recognizable as > Bennettian, and significantly different from his most usual ones. He's > done many other Bennettian sets of poems, too. > And I also have my "Poem poems," which are signature poems very > similar to one another but not visual or mathematical. My purely > visual poems are in no signature style--but some are as good as > anything I've done. > Common sense says stay with a form or style or whatever as long as you > think you can make it do significantly new and worthwhile things for > you. > Interesting topic about which a lot more could be said. "He found a formula for drawing comic rabbits, And the formula for drawing comic rabbits paid, But in the end he could not change the habits That the formula for drawing comic rabbits made." --Robert Graves From bobgrumman Sun Mar 20 00:34:36 2005 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:34:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Finnegan References: <200503200133.j2K1WwMY234934@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <000001c52d5f$e0825cb0$6cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Re: [New-Poetry] FinneganI'm all for a signature style. But it has to be large. You can't get trapped in a signature style, or form, or whatever, unless either you are incapable of exploiting it fully, or it's a poor signature style. I think that many poets search years to get a signature style or the equivalent, and it is they who achieve the most. But I'm biased because I only fairly recently started doing long division poems, and now do little else--because I think I can do anything I'd ever want to do (as a poet) in them. Well, except for doing something devoid of mathematics. . . . There's also the question of having several signature styles of the equivalent. I think of John M. Bennett who has done literally hundreds of sonnet-size poems with his personality all over them, but has done framed poems--poems with letters, words, graphics, or the like drawn in a rectangle around them--that are also instantly recognizable as Bennettian. And I also have my "Poem poems," which are signature poems very similar to one another. Common sense says stay with a form or style or whatever as long as you think you can make it do significantly new things for you. And what about the majority of poets, who have a signature style whose only defect is that it's somebody else's? Interesting topic about which a lot more could be said. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 Sun Mar 20 14:40:34 2005 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:40:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: text festival Message-ID: <4B45CBD3.1022C4C1.001A46F6@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Thom Tammaro Subject: text festival Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:16:54 -0600 Size: 5479 URL: From JforJames Sun Mar 20 17:41:33 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:41:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Listen to: A Conversation with Poet John Ashbery Message-ID: <6a.5189b6fc.2f6f561d@aol.com> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4542617 A Conversation with Poet John Ashbery by Scott Simon Weekend Edition - Saturday, March 19, 2005 ? Experimental poet John Ashbery won the National Book Award and Pulitzer Prize for his 1975 poem, "Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror." Since then, he's published more than 20 books of poetry. Ashbery, now 78, tells Scott Simon about his latest collection: Where Shall I Wander. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sun Mar 20 17:45:48 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:45:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Herb Scott Message-ID: http://www.mlive.com/entertainment/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/features-1/111131772967721.xml 'A fountain of encouragement and advice' Retired WMU English professor Herb Scott to share his latest poetry Sunday, March 20, 2005 By Matthew Jakubowski When he was 15, poet Herb Scott dug graves in the cemetery near his grandmother Addie's farm in Guthrie, Okla. The graveyard, near his hometown of Norman, "was a boot hill where a lot of outlaws were buried," he said. Scott, 74 -- during a recent interview in the New Issues Press office at Western Michigan University's West Hall, where he works to select and edit the Press' poetry and fiction titles -- recalled one grave in particular. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sun Mar 20 20:09:32 2005 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:09:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia Message-ID: Rhyme and reason (Filed: 10/03/2005) http://www.arts.telegraph.co.uk A veteran of the vibrant 1960s poetry scene, Camille Paglia argues that critics can no longer read, poets can no longer write, and the unacknowledged legislators of our age are writing advertising jingles for peanuts Poetry was at a height of prestige in the 1960s. American college students were listening to rock music, but also writing poetry. There were packed readings by poets on campuses and at political demonstrations. In 1966, for example, I attended an anti-war "poetry read-in" staged by visiting poets Galway Kinnell, James Wright and Robert Bly at Harpur College (my alma mater at the State University of New York at Binghamton). Harpur was then a hotbed of anti-academic poetry. During graduate school at Yale University, I attended readings by W H Auden, Robert Lowell, Elizabeth Bishop and many others. In 1969, Allen Ginsberg and Gregory Corso appeared at the Yale Law School, in an event significantly not sponsored by the English department, where there was open disdain for Beat poetry (one of my primary influences). At that magic moment, professors specialising in poetry criticism had stratospheric reputations at the major universities. But over the following decades, poetry and poetry study were steadily marginalised by pretentious "theory" - which claims to analyse language but atrociously abuses it. Poststructuralism and crusading identity politics led to the gradual sinking in reputation of the premiere literature departments, so that by the turn of the millennium they were no longer seen, even by the undergraduates themselves, to be where the excitement was on campus. One result of this triumph of ideology over art is that, on the basis of their publications, few literature professors know how to "read" any more - and thus can scarcely be trusted to teach that skill to their students. My attraction to poetry has always been driven by my love of English, which my family acquired relatively recently. (My mother and all four of my grandparents were born in Italy.) While my parents spoke English at home, my early childhood in the small factory town of Endicott in upstate New York was spent among speakers of sometimes mutually unintelligible Italian dialects. Unlike melodious Tuscan or literary Italian, rural Italian from the central and southern provinces is brusque, assertive, and consonant-laden, with guttural accents and dropped final vowels. What fascinated me about English was what I later recognised as its hybrid etymology: blunt Anglo-Saxon concreteness, sleek Norman French urbanity, and polysyllabic Greco-Roman abstraction. The clash of these elements, as competitive as Italian dialects, is invigorating, richly entertaining and often funny, as it is to Shakespeare, who gets tremendous effects out of their interplay. The dazzling multiplicity of sounds and word choices in English makes it brilliantly suited to be a language of poetry. It's why the pragmatic Anglo-American tradition (unlike effete French rationalism) doesn't need poststructuralism: in English, usage depends upon context; the words jostle and provoke one another and mischievously shift their meanings over time. English has evolved over the past century because of mass media and advertising, but the shadowy literary establishment in America, in and outside academe, has failed to adjust. From the start, like Andy Warhol (another product of an immigrant family in an isolated north-eastern industrial town), I recognised commercial popular culture as the authentic native voice of America. Burned into my memory, for example, is a late-1950s TV commercial for M&M's chocolate candies. A sultry cartoon peanut, sunbathing on a chaise longue, said in a twanging Southern drawl: "I'm an M&M peanut / Toasted to a golden brown / Dipped in creamy milk chocolate / And covered in a thin candy shell!" Illustrating each line, she prettily dove into a swimming pool of melted chocolate and popped out on the other side to strike a pose and be instantly towelled in her monogrammed candy wrap. I felt then, and still do, that the M&M peanut's jingle was a vivacious poem and that the creative team who produced that ad were folk artists, anonymous as the artisans of medieval cathedrals. My attentiveness to the American vernacular - through commercials, screwball comedies, hit songs, and talk radio (which I listen to around the clock) - has made me restive with the current state of poetry. I find too much work by the most acclaimed poets laboured, affected and verbose, intended not to communicate with the general audience but to impress their fellow poets. Poetic language has become stale and derivative, even when it makes all-too-familiar avant garde or ethnic gestures. Those who turn their backs on media (or overdose on postmodernism) have no gauge for monitoring the metamorphosis of English. Any poetry removed from popular diction will inevitably become as esoteric as 18th-century satire (perfected by Alexander Pope), whose dense allusiveness and preciosity drove the early Romantic poets into the countryside to find living speech again. Poetry's declining status has made its embattled practitioners insular and self-protective: personal friendships have spawned cliques and coteries in book and magazine publishing, prize committees and grants organisations. I have no such friendships and am a propagandist for no poet or group of poets. In my new book, Break, Blow, Burn, I offer line-by-line close readings of 43 poems, from canonical Renaissance verse to Joni Mitchell's Woodstock, which became an anthem for my conflicted generation. In gathering material, I was shocked at how weak individual poems have become over the past 40 years. Our most honoured poets are gifted and prolific, but we have come to respect them for their intelligence, commitment and the body of their work. They ceased focusing long ago on production of the powerful, distinctive, self-contained poem. They have lost ambition and no longer believe they can or should speak for their era. Elevating process over form, they treat their poems like meandering diary entries and craft them for effect in live readings rather than on the page. Arresting themes or images are proposed, then dropped or left to dribble away. Or, in a sign of lack of confidence in the reader or material, suggestive points are prosaically rephrased and hammered into obviousness. Rote formulas are rampant - a lugubrious victimology of accident, disease, and depression or a simplistic, ranting politics (people good, government bad) that looks naive next to the incisive writing about politics on today's op-ed pages. To be included in this book, a poem had to be strong enough, as an artefact, to stand up to all the great poems that precede it. One of my aims is to challenge contemporary poets to reassess their assumptions and modus operandi. In the 1990s, poetry as performance art revived among young people in slams recalling the hipster clubs of the Beat era. As always, the return of oral tradition had folk roots - in this case the incantatory rhyming of African-American urban hip-hop. But it's poetry on the page - a visual construct - that lasts. The eye, too, is involved. The shapeliness and symmetry of the four-line ballad stanza once structured the best lyrics of rhythm and blues, gospel, Country and Western music, and rock'n'roll. But with the immense commercial success of rock music, those folk roots have receded, and popular songwriting has grown weaker and weaker. My title comes from a poem in this book, John Donne's "Holy Sonnet XIV": "That I may rise, and stand, o'erthrow me, and bend / Your force, to break, blow, burn and make me new." Donne is appealing to God to overwhelm him and compel his redemption from sin. My secular but semi-mystical view of art is that it taps primal energies, breaks down barriers and imperiously remakes our settled way of seeing. Animated by the breath force (the original meaning of "spirit" and "inspiration"), poetry brings exhilarating spiritual renewal. A good poem is iridescent and incandescent, catching the light at unexpected angles and illuminating human universals - whose very existence is denied by today's parochial theorists. Among those looming universals are time and mortality, to which we all are subject. Like philosophy, poetry is a contemplative form, but unlike philosophy, poetry subliminally manipulates the body and triggers its nerve impulses, the muscle tremors of sensation and speech. The sacred remains latent in poetry, which was born in ancient ritual and cult. Poetry's persistent theme of the sublime - the awesome vastness of the universe - is a religious perspective, even in atheists like Shelley. Despite the cosmic vision of the radical, psychedelic 1960s, the sublime is precisely what poststructuralism, with its blindness to nature, cannot see. Metaphor is based on analogy: art is a revelation of the interconnectedness of the universe. The concentrated attention demanded by poetry is close to meditation. Commentary on poetry is a kind of divination, resembling the practice of oracles, sibyls, augurs, and interpreters of dreams. Poets speak even when they know their words will be swept away by the wind. In college Greek class, I was amazed by the fragments of Archaic poetry - sometimes just a surviving phrase or line - that vividly conveyed the personalities of their authors, figures like Archilochus, Alcman and Ibycus, about whom little is known. The continuity of Western culture is demonstrated by lyric poetry. Another of my unfashionable precepts is that I revere the artist and the poet, who are so ruthlessly "exposed" by the sneering poststructuralists with their political agenda. There is no "death of the author" (that Parisian clich?) in my world view. Authors strive and create against every impediment, including their doubters and detractors. Despite breaks, losses and revivals, artistic tradition has a transhistorical flow that I have elsewhere compared to a mighty river. Poems give birth to other poems. Yet poetry is not just about itself: it does point to something out there, however dimly we can know it. The modernist doctrine of the work's self-reflexiveness once empowered art but has ended by strangling it in gimmickry. Artists are makers, not just mouthers of slippery discourse. Poets are fabricators and engineers, pursuing a craft analogous to cabinetry or bridge building. I maintain that the text emphatically exists as an object; it is not just a mist of ephemeral subjectivities. Every reading is partial, but that does not absolve us from the quest for meaning, which defines us as a species. In writing about a poem, I try to listen to it and find a language and tone that mesh with its own idiom. We live in a time increasingly indifferent to literary style, from the slack prose of once august newspapers to pedestrian translations of the Bible. The internet (which I champion and to which I have extensively contributed) has increased verbal fluency but not quality, at least in its rushed, patchy genres of e-mail and blog. Good writing comes from good reading. All literary criticism should be accessible to the general reader. Criticism at its best is re-creative, not spirit-killing. Technical analysis of a poem is like breaking down a car engine, which has to be reassembled to run again. Theorists childishly smash up their subjects and leave the disjecta membra like litter. For me, poetry is speech-based and is not just an arbitrary pattern of signs that can be slid around like a jigsaw puzzle. I sound out poems silently, as others pray. Poetry, which began as song, is music-drama: I value emotional expressiveness, musical phrasings, and choreographic assertion, the speaker's theatrical self-positioning toward other persons or implacable external forces. I am not that concerned with prosody except to compare strict metre (drilled by my Greek and Latin teachers) to the standard songs that jazz musicians transform: I prefer irregularity, syncopation, bending the note. My advice to the reader approaching a poem is to make the mind still and blank. Let the poem speak. This charged quiet mimics the blank space ringing the printed poem, the nothing out of which something takes shape. Many critics counsel memorising poetry, but that has never been my habit. To commit a poem to memory is to make the act of reading superfluous. But I believe in immersion in and saturation by the poem, so that the next time we meet it, we have the thrill of recognition. We feel (to quote singer Stevie Nicks) the hauntingly familiar. It's akin to addiction or to the euphoria of being in love. (This is an edited version of the introduction to 'Break, Blow, Burn: Camille Paglia Reads Forty-Three of the World's Best Poems', published by Pantheon Books.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sun Mar 20 22:18:47 2005 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:18:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An immodest announcement Message-ID: "Coming of Age," a story by Lynda Schor, which also will appear in her upcoming FC2 collection *The Body Parts Shop*, recently appeared in an issue of The Brooklyn