From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 1 01:46:07 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 01:46:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mammorial Day In-Reply-To: <1117597683.429d2ff3c2f57@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> References: <1d8.3dde2936.2fccfd31@cs.com> <731bb17a05053017111c55eab0@mail.gmail.com> <1117510151.429bda07a4c17@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> <00c001c56592$4c13e510$e89c9951@Robin> <1117593257.429d1ea94a7cd@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> <1117597683.429d2ff3c2f57@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: <429D4B9F.4050700@ix.netcom.com> What war? This is slap and tickle. FIZZ > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jun 1 05:25:51 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:25:51 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] sending again, Message-ID: <003601c5668b$e7202ce0$81ed3652@ANNY> because I had problems with the server yesterday, Crali with all the futurists would applaude this masterpiece as I am now, compliments -felt compliments- Anny Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day Airshow The bright fury of it all, those titanium-alloy wings tearing away great sections of the sky. The sun itself astonished. The screaming drone of engines opened up all the way, exhaust trailing off, dissipating, a fine bone-white ash floating down along the surface of the river. Again the pitiless metal at full thrust, coming in low from behind the bluffs in a strafing run over the crowd. We gave up our necks, heads tilted skyward, squinting in the glare. We clapped and children squealed and held their ears as the fighterjets wheeled about and came around one last time. The earth shuddered under our feet and all the flags loosed in the wind. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbyrne at risd.edu Wed Jun 1 10:30:05 2005 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:30:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] sending again, Message-ID: It reminds me of that Carlo Carra piece about the airshow in Milan. Except that was not fighter jets. Mairead >>> anny.ballardini at tin.it 06/01/05 5:25 AM >>> because I had problems with the server yesterday, Crali with all the futurists would applaude this masterpiece as I am now, compliments -felt compliments- Anny Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Memorial Day Airshow The bright fury of it all, those titanium-alloy wings tearing away great sections of the sky. The sun itself astonished. The screaming drone of engines opened up all the way, exhaust trailing off, dissipating, a fine bone-white ash floating down along the surface of the river. Again the pitiless metal at full thrust, coming in low from behind the bluffs in a strafing run over the crowd. We gave up our necks, heads tilted skyward, squinting in the glare. We clapped and children squealed and held their ears as the fighterjets wheeled about and came around one last time. The earth shuddered under our feet and all the flags loosed in the wind. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Jun 1 10:41:07 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:41:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fighter jets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: CHRISTMASTIME IN CORONADO The attack jets come in low over the ocean past the tennis courts and the Duchess' cottage, in tandem low over the Navy golf course headed for the North Island airstrip then wheel to the left out over the water again, the afternoon's last light making a movie set of the offshore islands around and back once more past the grand old wooden hotel and its cupolas with a series of watery, high-pitched "whups" as they cut back their engines and disappear over the ridge. The town seems very still, almost empty, rich. Christmas displays in store windows. A goodly stream of cars. The traffic lights make a sound too, bird-like. I often get confused. The roaring overhead. The traffic noise. There is no place to go. Out on the Silver Strand the joggers and sweethearts take in the sunset the air overhead as busy as war Skyhawks, Vigilantes, Intruders the cargo and surveillance planes sub hunters, gunships Phantom, Tomcat, Cobra... It must have given the late President great succor out there in his compound those long troubled evenings in San Clemente to see the lights and track the arc of the distant thunder as he sat, with a drink, looking out that enormous window at the sea, the stars a blur of light from the distant pier. I have read, of the late President from those who had been close to him, through it all that he had in him a reflective one might even say philosophical cast of mind. I wouldn't know to say it wasn't true. I wouldn't know to say. But I myself have been thinking constantly of America. Only of late, only here with the might of the nation roaring overhead around the clock spewing vapor from their strakes going fucking nowhere and noisily coming back. --August Kleinzahler. *The Strange Hours Travelers Keep*. F,S & G, 2003. on 6/1/05 9:30 AM, Mairead Byrne at mbyrne at risd.edu wrote: > It reminds me of that Carlo Carra piece about the airshow in Milan. Except > that was not fighter jets. > Mairead > > Airshow > > The bright fury of it all, > those titanium-alloy wings > tearing away great sections of the sky. > The sun itself astonished. The screaming > drone of engines opened up all the way, > exhaust trailing off, dissipating, > a fine bone-white ash floating down > along the surface of the river. > Again the pitiless metal at full thrust, > coming in low from behind the bluffs > in a strafing run over the crowd. > We gave up our necks, heads tilted skyward, > squinting in the glare. We clapped and children > squealed and held their ears > as the fighterjets wheeled about and came around > one last time. The earth shuddered > under our feet and all the flags > loosed in the wind. > > ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 1 12:11:27 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:11:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] sending again, Message-ID: <1f3.ae34d9b.2fcf382f@aol.com> In a message dated 6/1/2005 5:26:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: Crali with all the futurists would applaude http://futurism.org.uk/crali/ Anny, I didn't know that artist...I can see what you're saying...the vectors & curves. I see from the bio that he wrote 'freeword poetry', and did architectural drawings. A poet I admired, who saw an early draft of my poem, said to me he thought of Whitman's "Cavalry Crossing a Ford." (below) Nice to hear...but I'm sure it was the flags at the end that triggered the response. Finnegan Cavalry Crossing a Ford A LINE in long array, where they wind betwixt green islands; They take a serpentine course--their arms flash in the sun--Hark to the musical clank; Behold the silvery river--in it the splashing horses, loitering, stop to drink; Behold the brown-faced men--each group, each person, a picture--the negligent rest on the saddles; Some emerge on the opposite bank--others are just entering the ford--while, Scarlet, and blue, and snowy white, The guidon flags flutter gaily in the wind. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Jun 1 05:55:55 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:55:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Memorial Day Poem Message-ID: Just got back to my office. Here's a belated memorial day poem. PIECES The queen moves with unbounded liberty. Slant-eyed, a bishop offers up a prayer. A horse-faced gallant full of chivalry Enters the family trade, an officer. A rook, high as a silo, lets fire fall, Then ends its run behind a remnant pawn. The king strolls past his garden?s rose-grown wall To issue statements from the castle lawn. Only the pawns, bald-domed as army ants, Urged to the common good by stripes and prayers, Regard the board, cursed with their consciousness Of all the horror of those empty squares. Paul Lake From hruggier at localnet.com Wed Jun 1 13:25:33 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:25:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time References: <24760142.1117582030690.JavaMail.root@wamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <009e01c566ce$eb61d2c0$8e089942@Helen> He hasn't said anything. . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time > Don't we have a National Mime? > > - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > Sent: May 31, 2005 4:18 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time > > In a message dated 5/31/2005 4:50:55 PM Central Daylight Time, > JforJames at aol.com writes: >> >> http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/05/31_ap_poetlaureate/ >> >> Minnesota poet laureate is not to be >> >> May 31, 2005 >> >> >> >> St. Paul, Minn. ? (AP) - A bill establishing an official poet laureate >> in >> Minnesota met a tragic fate. >> >> >> >> Gov. Tim Pawlenty penned the fatal verse when he vetoed the bill. The >> Republican governor took the action Friday but didn't announce it until >> Tuesday. >> >> >> >> "Even though we have a state 'folklorist,' I also have concern this will >> lead to calls for other similar positions," Pawlenty wrote in letter >> accompanying the veto. "We could also see requests for a state mime, >> interpretive >> dancer or potter." >> >> >> > Yes, stop them before they multiply! > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -------------------------------------------- My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 1 13:41:27 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:41:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time Message-ID: <27.736a4558.2fcf4d47@aol.com> verbally-challenged is the p.c. term In a message dated 6/1/2005 1:26:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: He hasn't said anything. . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] stopping the insanity one state at a time > Don't we have a National Mime? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stpeter at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 16:45:31 2005 From: stpeter at gmail.com (Peter Saint-Andre) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:45:31 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings Message-ID: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> Thanks to an entry in Uche Ogbuji's weblog, I've just discovered this list. I doubt I'll post as often as Uche (I see from the archives that he has been quite busy!), but like him I am a computer professional with a passion for poetry, both original and translated. I've written some poems of my own and have also translated quite a bit of Sappho and Horace; more here: http://www.saint-andre.com/poems/ Also I used to edit a literary webzine called the Monadnock Review at www.monadnock.net but I simply ran out of time to maintain it (though most of it is still archived for viewing). Many thanks to the list admins for offering this discussion forum. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre Denver, Colorado, USA http://www.saint-andre.com/blog/ From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jun 1 16:45:48 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:45:48 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] sending again, References: <1f3.ae34d9b.2fcf382f@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c566ea$e43f20d0$8dab3252@ANNY> Thank you James. I agree with that poet, in both yours and Whitman's poem there is a similar tonal sound and capacity of evoking images. Crali is one of my favorite futurists for his paintings, his hues that verge to that imperceptible inside distanced scream, his capacity of giving tri-dimensional and cubist forms usually seen from high above in the air that give you a sort of vertigo, the possibility his paintings offer you of watching his work from a distance of several meters and at a span as an actual painting should be seen, his careful and distracted brush-strokes as they have to be where they have to be, and his creative study of physics, -the reproductions on the net are nothing but a pale reflection of his original work I think I sort of listed it all. Maybe Giacomo Balla was the best to detect kinetic energy, while Umberto Boccioni brings you into an impressive study of the self. I am not able to find Carlo Carr?'s airshow on the net in this moment. Anny From: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:11 PM > In a message dated 6/1/2005 5:26:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: > Crali with all the futurists would applaude > > http://futurism.org.uk/crali/ > > Anny, I didn't know that artist...I can see what > you're saying...the vectors & curves. I see from > the bio that he wrote 'freeword poetry', and did > architectural drawings. > > A poet I admired, who saw an early draft > of my poem, said to me he thought of > Whitman's "Cavalry Crossing a Ford." (below) > Nice to hear...but I'm sure it was the > flags at the end that triggered the response. > Finnegan > > Cavalry Crossing a Ford > > > A LINE in long array, where they wind betwixt green islands; > They take a serpentine course--their arms flash in the sun--Hark to the > musical clank; > Behold the silvery river--in it the splashing horses, loitering, stop to > drink; > Behold the brown-faced men--each group, each person, a picture--the > negligent > rest on the saddles; > Some emerge on the opposite bank--others are just entering the > ford--while, > > Scarlet, and blue, and snowy white, > The guidon flags flutter gaily in the wind. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 1 18:42:14 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:42:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] LitStation.com to launch in late summer or early fall Message-ID: <1fa.9c116f4.2fcf93c6@aol.com> LitStation.com to launch in late summer or early fall. LitStation.com will be a webradio broadcast source for poetry, fiction, interviews, book reviews and essays of literary interest. Currently we are seeking content providers willing to allow us to stream their recorded materials. Poets and fiction writers who have recordings of their own work can send them to us for use on the air. These recording do not have to be professionally produced, but they need be of decent sound quality (a minimum of hisses, crackles and extraneous noise). Ideally, we?d like to get this material in digital sound files like mp3 or wav formats. But we can and will convert audio tape recordings to digital files, as well. Secondly, if you have access to any recordings of readings, interviews or lectures by other authors, we?d like to run those. (We ?d, of course, get permission from the author or copyright holder before running these recordings.) Before sending a recording to us, please email a brief description of what kind of recording you have available, the format (digital file type/cassette tape/vinyl, etc.), and your assessment of the recorded quality (pro/good/fair). (If it?s another person?s recording, any leads you might have on how to get permission for use would be of help.) We?ll then let you know if we think we can use your recording in our broadcast stream. Once the recording is scheduled to air/stream, we?ll notify you before it goes out in the stream, so you can be sure to tune in. We?ll send back to you any recordings that are originals? with a digital copy when it came to us as analog. We strongly suggest making a duplicate before sending an original recording to us. We can?t be responsible for lost or destroyed one-of-a-kind material. At first the programming schedule will be somewhat loosely organized. Certain time slots will be a random playlist of various artists: An audio anthology du jour, so to speak. Gradually, as we collect more regular shows and series, the schedule will become more structured. For example, a regular listener will know he/she will hear ?American Short Stories? on Tuesday evening at 7PM and that on Friday morning at 8AM ?Conversations with Contemporary Poets? is on the air (or in the stream). We are very interested in hearing from people able and capable of producing original segments or series for broadcast. It might be something a tech-savvy lit student could do for credit as an independent study. We?re open to ideas and proposals. If you want a sneak preview of what the website will look like (it?s still in design and development phase, not functional) surf here: http://www.marinpro.com/clients/lit2/index.htm James Finnegan LitStation JforJames at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jun 1 19:26:35 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:26:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: this will never lead to an interesting conversation References: Message-ID: <028101c56701$5abb26d0$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > >> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:17:38 -0400 >> From: "The Old Mole" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there >> >> > Haste is the enemy of poetry< >> >> I thought the enemy of poetry was anyone who put time, effort, or >> money into >> presenting poetry to the world, but left out burstnorm. Close enough, CC. That is, you have what I said approximately 4% accurate. What I call AN enemy of poetry is one who significantly blocks the acceptance of any poetry that uses devices not in wide use for fifty or more years. Camille Paglia, for instance, who uses her clout to imply that the only poetry around is what's in the New Yorker and the like, and assures with her books that even more space in the poetry sections of the bookstores with space for poetry will be used for any non-traditional verse. Note: I would consider myself an enemy of poetry if I wrote an essay on the state of American poetry and left out neo-formalist verse, or Iowa plaintext poetry, or whatever else is being published in APR and the like--OR any kind of poetry being done by more than a few people without admitting, as anyone writing such an essay would have to, that I was sure I was inadvertantly overlooking important kinds of poetry. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jun 1 19:30:11 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:30:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry References: <12a.5e4bd8bc.2fcb05fe@aol.com> Message-ID: <029a01c56701$db91f090$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In a message dated 5/29/2005 7:44:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bardo at optonline.net writes: . . . Paglia finds "too much work by the most acclaimed poets labored, affected, and verbose, intended not to communicate with the general audience but to impress their fellow poets. Poetic language has become stale and derivative." She is "shocked at how weak individual poems have become over the past forty years." Poets today "have lost ambition and no longer believe they can or should speak for their era." This situation is particularly dire because "at this time of foreboding about the future of Western culture, it is crucial to identify and preserve our finest artifacts." And you thought only our "democracy" was under attack! No, they want our Norton anthologies, too. If they hit us again, how shall we fight them, now that our poetic language has become "stale and derivative"? Of what use against their bombs will our sagging synecdoches be? If only Grumman made fresh metaphors, too... But this is just a rehash of the same thing one critic or school or another has been saying about poetry since, well, forever. And when someone does pick out "our ifnest artifiacts," I don't think it's going to be Camille Paglia. What do you know, you and I agree on this one, Al. I love the stale and derivative language Camille uses to express her stale and derivative ideas about what's happening in poetry today. Sure, most acclaimed poets aren't that great, as usual (as David points out in a later post to this thread, which I'm reading after being away for a while). But what's this about poets of today having "lost ambition?" How can she possibly know, since it's clear she knows next to nothing about poets of today? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Jun 1 19:32:48 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:32:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 14:45 -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Thanks to an entry in Uche Ogbuji's weblog, I've just discovered this > list. Well, cool. Glad to be a conduit. > I doubt I'll post as often as Uche (I see from the archives that > he has been quite busy!), Yeah. I post in batches, but I think that in feeling my way around I'm getting a sense of the (many) patterns on this list that convey the urgent message: "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." Being a busy professional like you, I'll be using this experience to cut down quite a bit on my posting here. > but like him I am a computer professional > with a passion for poetry, both original and translated. I've written > some poems of my own and have also translated quite a bit of Sappho > and Horace; more here: -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 19:53:38 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:53:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> <1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> From: "Uche Ogbuji" > I think that in feeling my way around I'm > getting a sense of the (many) patterns on this list that convey the > urgent message: "stay well away from this thread. There is a good > chance that it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." ... or alternatively, "Don't buy into the game unless you can put your money where your mouth is." Every decent list I've ever been on has (nice term, Uche) "jinxed threads", and equally, high maintenance threads, where the level of reference jumps ... fast. Difficult to tell them apart, sometimes, but. I always assumed this was simply the name of the game, but perhaps I'm simply dumb? Who knows ... SBT Robin From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Jun 1 20:05:11 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:05:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> <1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta> <013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 00:53 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "Uche Ogbuji" > > > I think that in feeling my way around I'm > > getting a sense of the (many) patterns on this list that convey the > > urgent message: "stay well away from this thread. There is a good > > chance that it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." > > ... or alternatively, "Don't buy into the game unless you can put your money > where your mouth is." I guess you could say that. What has disappointed me in some threads here has been that I've watched straightforward discussion turn into very strange sequences of insult-tit for insult-tat. Then again, I've been in some very rewarding threads, such as the one on Anne Sexton, where I disagreed with some, but people were generally forthright and ready to address the topic rather than their caricatures of the other posters. I think I've found that certain triggers signal a thread's descent into uselessness (at least for me) here. > Every decent list I've ever been on has (nice term, Uche) "jinxed threads", > and equally, high maintenance threads, where the level of reference jumps > ... fast. Right. I've become rather adept about quickly finding out the warning patterns on any mailing list I join. Just a defense mechanism: I can hurl invective as well as the next person, but I'm so short of time it's already crazy for me to be joining another mailing list, and I have to figure out ways to apply the filters. BTW, your question about African Lit when I joined triggered for me a bit of a rewarding re-exploration of the material I have (and have allowed to gather too much dust since I moved to the U.S.) I still owe you some of the information you requested. I'll get to it soon. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 20:18:08 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:18:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta> <013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin> Uche: > Every decent list I've ever been on has (nice term, Uche) "jinxed threads", > and equally, high maintenance threads, where the level of reference jumps > ... fast. Just to expand on the concept of high-maintenance threads. I've been messing around recently with a Glagow urban translation of Beowulf on another list, and I sort-of assumed that no one would be the least interested in this other than the Deeply Few who were both (so singularly few) sussed on both Glasgow urban speech and trained in Anglo-Saxon. Oh, well, turns out that there were more than I expected. Odd, that but ... When it comes to professional computer programmers on a poetry List, I think poetryetc has the highest ratio of anywhere else that I've ever encountered. ... more Real Men than Quiche Eaters there. OS9 (who ate quiche and programmed in spaghetti Basic) From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Jun 1 20:43:07 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:43:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin> References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> <1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta> <013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> <014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 01:18 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > When it comes to professional computer programmers on a poetry List, I think > poetryetc has the highest ratio of anywhere else that I've ever encountered. > > ... more Real Men than Quiche Eaters there. Rare event for computer programmers as a class to be called "real men". Usually to be called a real man I have to point out my study of martial arts, or some other stereotypically he-man occupation (I don't pump iron, working on cars is no fun for me and I play basketball and soccer, not baseball or American football). I do usually avoid quiche, though. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 20:46:13 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:46:13 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> <1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <014901c5670c$7a83be90$f19c9951@Robin> Uche: > > ... or alternatively, "Don't buy into the game unless you can put your money > > where your mouth is." > > I guess you could say that. What has disappointed me in some threads > here has been that I've watched straightforward discussion turn into > very strange sequences of insult-tit for insult-tat. I don't think they turn into that, I think they often bloody START from that, and the only thing to do is sigh and avoid them. > Then again, I've > been in some very rewarding threads, such as the one on Anne Sexton, > where I disagreed with some, but people were generally forthright and > ready to address the topic rather than their caricatures of the other > posters. Mind you, that switched pretty quickly into an internal argument within the New Formalist camp. {Or am I being a typical bigoted chauvinistic Brit here?} Fascinating to watch, but out of my league, so why (partly) I went silent there. > I think I've found that certain triggers signal a thread's descent into > uselessness (at least for me) here. Yup. Survival Code. "The art so long, the time to waste so long ..." > > Every decent list I've ever been on has (nice term, Uche) "jinxed threads", > > and equally, high maintenance threads, where the level of reference jumps > > ... fast. > > Right. I've become rather adept about quickly finding out the warning > patterns on any mailing list I join. Just a defense mechanism: Join the club ... > I can > hurl invective as well as the next person, Bet you can't do it as well (or as badly) as me on a bad hair day. > BTW, your question about African Lit when I joined triggered for me a > bit of a rewarding re-exploration of the material I have (and have > allowed to gather too much dust since I moved to the U.S.) I still owe > you some of the information you requested. I'll get to it soon. Should we (re)name this the Nat Turner Thread? But that's more prose than poetry. You come on Francis Berry's stuff? "Morant Bay", Governer Eyre, and the Jamaica colony -- make your hair stand on end, that would. Damn good poetry, whatever. Cheers, Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 21:18:01 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:18:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin> <1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin> > Rare event for computer programmers as a class to be called "real men". *JEEZUS*, Uche, are you ever so young or am I ever so old? Real Men thought in machine code, Quiche Eaters programmed in Basic. Ah, right, I *am* ever so old. :-( The term goes back back to the seventies, so mibee before your time. > Usually to be called a real man I have to point out my study of martial > arts, or some other stereotypically he-man occupation (I don't pump > iron, working on cars is no fun for me and I play basketball and soccer, > not baseball or American football). Different context ... > I do usually avoid quiche, though. I like to eat it, but I still get embarrassed that I can be typed as The Ultimate Quiche Eater. A Power User {Who got paid ?65 Way-Back-When for writing, "Serial File Programming on the Dragon 32."] The Dragon 32 wasn't quite a clone of the Trash80, but a straight Welsh rip of the Co-Co. Few enough of us who can play this game -- are you too young to hit on the use of Reverse Polish Number Notation on the Ace (running Forth as an OS, and a keyboard that mimicked Clive Sinclair's corpse-handed ZX80 physical interface)? Best I ever did was mickey mouse in OS9, stand-alone Unix for Children. I *really* liked that. Just barely my speed. EVER so long ago ... The Stoned Dormouse. From tad at opus40.org Wed Jun 1 21:47:01 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:47:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002601c56714$fb684a50$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Peter - Uche's been a great addition to this sometimes dysfunctional community, and we look forward to seeing more of you, too. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Saint-Andre" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:45 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings > Thanks to an entry in Uche Ogbuji's weblog, I've just discovered this > list. I doubt I'll post as often as Uche (I see from the archives that > he has been quite busy!), but like him I am a computer professional > with a passion for poetry, both original and translated. I've written > some poems of my own and have also translated quite a bit of Sappho > and Horace; more here: > > http://www.saint-andre.com/poems/ > > Also I used to edit a literary webzine called the Monadnock Review at > www.monadnock.net but I simply ran out of time to maintain it (though > most of it is still archived for viewing). > > Many thanks to the list admins for offering this discussion forum. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > Denver, Colorado, USA > http://www.saint-andre.com/blog/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Wed Jun 1 21:51:48 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:51:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> <1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Uche - it's always gonna be that way. Any list, not just this one. Best bet is just to follow the threads you like, use a fast delete finger on the others. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uche Ogbuji" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Greetings > On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 00:53 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> From: "Uche Ogbuji" >> >> > I think that in feeling my way around I'm >> > getting a sense of the (many) patterns on this list that convey the >> > urgent message: "stay well away from this thread. There is a good >> > chance that it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." >> >> ... or alternatively, "Don't buy into the game unless you can put your >> money >> where your mouth is." > > I guess you could say that. What has disappointed me in some threads > here has been that I've watched straightforward discussion turn into > very strange sequences of insult-tit for insult-tat. Then again, I've > been in some very rewarding threads, such as the one on Anne Sexton, > where I disagreed with some, but people were generally forthright and > ready to address the topic rather than their caricatures of the other > posters. > > I think I've found that certain triggers signal a thread's descent into > uselessness (at least for me) here. > >> Every decent list I've ever been on has (nice term, Uche) "jinxed >> threads", >> and equally, high maintenance threads, where the level of reference jumps >> ... fast. > > Right. I've become rather adept about quickly finding out the warning > patterns on any mailing list I join. Just a defense mechanism: I can > hurl invective as well as the next person, but I'm so short of time it's > already crazy for me to be joining another mailing list, and I have to > figure out ways to apply the filters. > > BTW, your question about African Lit when I joined triggered for me a > bit of a rewarding re-exploration of the material I have (and have > allowed to gather too much dust since I moved to the U.S.) I still owe > you some of the information you requested. I'll get to it soon. > > -- > Uche Ogbuji > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Wed Jun 1 22:01:14 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:01:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back To The Library Message-ID: <00b201c56716$f7a45290$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> From Human Events magazine, a list of the most harmful books of all time: 1. The Communist Manifesto Authors: Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels 2. Mein Kampf Author: Adolf Hitler 3. Quotations from Chairman Mao Author: Mao Zedong 4. The Kinsey Report Author: Alfred Kinsey 5. Democracy and Education Author: John Dewey 6. Das Kapital Author: Karl Marx 7. The Feminine Mystique Author: Betty Friedan 8. The Course of Positive Philosophy Author: Auguste Comte 9. Beyond Good and Evil Author: Freidrich Nietzsche 10. General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money Author: John Maynard Keynes Honorable Mention The Population Bomb by Paul Ehrlich What Is To Be Done by V.I. Lenin Authoritarian Personality by Theodor Adorno On Liberty by John Stuart Mill Beyond Freedom and Dignity by B.F. Skinner Reflections on Violence by Georges Sorel The Promise of American Life by Herbert Croly Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin Madness and Civilization by Michel Foucault Soviet Communism: A New Civilization by Sidney and Beatrice Webb Coming of Age in Samoa by Margaret Mead Unsafe at Any Speed by Ralph Nader Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir Prison Notebooks by Antonio Gramsci Silent Spring by Rachel Carson Wretched of the Earth by Frantz Fanon Introduction to Psychoanalysis by Sigmund Freud The Greening of America by Charles Reich The Limits to Growth by Club of Rome Descent of Man by Charles Darwin Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 1 22:06:04 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:06:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings Message-ID: In a message dated 6/1/2005 9:52:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > Uche - it's always gonna be that way. Any list, not just this one. Best bet > > is just to follow the threads you like, use a fast delete finger on the > others. > I welcome you both, and I second Tad's suggestion. In any list there are agitators and those who can't make their points without trying to run down or bring to heel someone else. On this list we've had good spells and bad. But I think an even temperament and a thick skin are going to be difference between those that stay the course and those that drop off. Finnegan Tom Petty - Rhino Skin You need rhino skin If you're gonna begin To walk Through this world You need elephant balls If you don't want to crawl On your hands through this world Oh my love if I reveal Every secret I've concealed How many thoughts would you steal How much of my pain would you feel You need eagles wings To get over things That make no sense In this world You need rhino skin If you're gonna pretend You're not hurt by this world If you listen long enough You can hear my skin grow tough Love is painful to the touch Must be made of stronger stuff You need rhino skin To get to the end Of the maze Through this world You need rhino skin Or you're gonna give in To the needles and the pins The arrows of sin The evils of men You need rhino skin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 22:06:08 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:06:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta> <009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <016c01c56717$a4a431e0$f19c9951@Robin> > Uche - it's always gonna be that way. Any list, not just this one. Best bet > is just to follow the threads you like, use a fast delete finger on the > others. > > Tad Richards Platitudes, Tad -- I may be offensive but at least I'm specific. Nah? The Red Rover From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Wed Jun 1 22:10:41 2005 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:10:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back To The Library In-Reply-To: <00b201c56716$f7a45290$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <00b201c56716$f7a45290$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050601210937.0cbe5eb0@mail.ilstu.edu> Except for Mein Kampf, it reads pretty much like a list of my favorite books! At 09:01 PM 6/1/2005, you wrote: > From Human Events magazine, a list of the most harmful books of all time: > >1. The Communist Manifesto >Authors: Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels > >2. Mein Kampf >Author: Adolf Hitler > > >3. Quotations from Chairman Mao >Author: Mao Zedong > >4. The Kinsey Report >Author: Alfred Kinsey > > >5. Democracy and Education >Author: John Dewey > > >6. Das Kapital >Author: Karl Marx > >7. The Feminine Mystique >Author: Betty Friedan > > >8. The Course of Positive Philosophy >Author: Auguste Comte > >9. Beyond Good and Evil >Author: Freidrich Nietzsche > > >10. General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money >Author: John Maynard Keynes > >Honorable Mention > >The Population Bomb >by Paul Ehrlich > >What Is To Be Done >by V.I. Lenin > >Authoritarian Personality >by Theodor Adorno > >On Liberty >by John Stuart Mill > >Beyond Freedom and Dignity >by B.F. Skinner > >Reflections on Violence >by Georges Sorel > >The Promise of American Life >by Herbert Croly > >Origin of the Species >by Charles Darwin > >Madness and Civilization >by Michel Foucault > >Soviet Communism: A New Civilization >by Sidney and Beatrice Webb > >Coming of Age in Samoa >by Margaret Mead > >Unsafe at Any Speed >by Ralph Nader > >Second Sex >by Simone de Beauvoir > >Prison Notebooks >by Antonio Gramsci > >Silent Spring >by Rachel Carson > >Wretched of the Earth >by Frantz Fanon > >Introduction to Psychoanalysis >by Sigmund Freud > >The Greening of America >by Charles Reich > >The Limits to Growth >by Club of Rome > >Descent of Man >by Charles Darwin >Tad Richards >www.opus40.org >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jun 1 22:34:33 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:34:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry References: <1d5.3c81f33d.2fc25ebe@aol.com><015501c55f2f$cff10cf0$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <02d501c56443$bd962f90$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <040c01c5671b$9c888de0$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> If only Grumman made fresh metaphors, too... Of course, I do--but most of them are visio-poetic, so unusable by visible poets. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jun 1 22:45:57 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:45:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: Quiche would have seemed a bizarre foreign food in 1970s Glasgow, heh? The cold forerunner of pizza. > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Robin Hamilton > Sent: 02 June 2005 02:18 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Greetings > > > Rare event for computer programmers as a class to be called > "real men". > > *JEEZUS*, Uche, are you ever so young or am I ever so old? > --- > Few enough of us who can play this game -- are you too young > to hit on the use of Reverse Polish Number Notation on the > Ace (running Forth as an OS, and a keyboard that mimicked > Clive Sinclair's corpse-handed ZX80 physical interface)? > Isn't reverse polish sandpaper? P From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 1 22:56:07 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:56:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a rhino with passion Message-ID: http://www.rhinopoetry.org/pages/submit.html RHINO magazine is a literary annual that invites traditional or experimental work reflecting passion, originality, artistic conviction, and a love affair with language. We publish poetry, short-shorts, translations, and occasional brief essays on poetry. We encourage regional talent while listening to voices from around the world. Annual Reading Period: April 1 to October 1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 23:06:57 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:06:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: Message-ID: <01c001c56720$2459b380$f19c9951@Robin> From: "Peter Cudmore" > Quiche would have seemed a bizarre foreign food in 1970s Glasgow, heh? The > cold forerunner of pizza. Curried Alsatian in a Byres Road tandoori house. You had to be there to believe to eat it. Really, I *am* getting old when people like you remind me of my unborn grandchildren. Makes you wonder, but. :-( The Wee M'Greegor (AND I was mid to late sixties, not seventies -- punctilious difference, see? Danny the Red.) From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jun 1 23:09:40 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:09:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin> References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> <1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta> <013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> <014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin> <1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta> <015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <9BAD92D1-6445-4967-BB2C-08CE1F11E9C3@mac.com> On Jun 1, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Few enough of us who can play this game -- are you too young to hit > on the > use of Reverse Polish Number Notation on the Ace (running Forth as > an OS, > and a keyboard that mimicked Clive Sinclair's corpse-handed ZX80 > physical > interface)? I used Forth to print black and white Mandelbrot sets from a PDP-11 -- first professional task was translating, for maintainability, a Fortran 5(?) program into Pascal on an IBM System/370. The program calculated least-cost deployment of spare capacity for survivability in a local area telephone network, and the guy who'd written the original code had learned BASIC on an Apple II in Brazil, then learned Fortran in France. All the variable names in the 5000+ lines of code were two-letter abbreviations of Portuguese or French terms, and all the comments were in either Portuguese or French. I knew literary Spanish. First thing I did, out of sheer bewilderment, was to change a FORMAT statement to print dollar signs in front of the calculated costs, and it made a 4 million dollar difference. I told my boss, who thought about 3 seconds, and said "Forget it." Got the job done, though I'm damned if I know how. Did you know Macintosh firmware, at least until very recently, was written in Forth? Might still be. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 23:13:32 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:13:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: Message-ID: <01ce01c56721$0efcd700$f19c9951@Robin> From: "Peter Cudmore" > Isn't reverse polish sandpaper? > > P Ask Roger Collett -- it's beyond my expertise. "Whereoff you do not know, thereoff you keep your mouth strictly shut." Wittgenstein From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 23:47:11 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:47:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin><1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta><015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin> <9BAD92D1-6445-4967-BB2C-08CE1F11E9C3@mac.com> Message-ID: <01d401c56725$c28df020$f19c9951@Robin> Meep!!! Back to the Teapot, me. The Stoned Dormouse ... as to Mandelbrot sets, who needs them? I fell in love with Venn Diagrams at An Early Age, and never fell out of ... What did really severely bother me was when the butterfly flapped her silver wings in Argentinia ... Chaos Theory, who needs it? ... but what surely smashed my mind apart was Andrew Radford's _minimalist linguistics_ ... ... me being a nice Chomskyist boyo ... That is surely beyond sad, since I was trained in Scale-Catagory Grammar. I'll be well dead before I can make sense of this. Halliday and McIntosh. (Save us from those Maoist Linguists on a sunny Edinburgh afternoon.) Da author of The Rose-Garden Libretto. [Michael, I love you like a brother, but I just have a teensy suspect that your programming expertise is just a slight bit beyond mine. The Red Rover. ] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:09 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Greetings > > On Jun 1, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > > Few enough of us who can play this game -- are you too young to hit > > on the > > use of Reverse Polish Number Notation on the Ace (running Forth as > > an OS, > > and a keyboard that mimicked Clive Sinclair's corpse-handed ZX80 > > physical > > interface)? > > > I used Forth to print black and white Mandelbrot sets from a PDP-11 > -- first professional task was translating, for maintainability, a > Fortran 5(?) program into Pascal on an IBM System/370. The program > calculated least-cost deployment of spare capacity for survivability > in a local area telephone network, and the guy who'd written the > original code had learned BASIC on an Apple II in Brazil, then > learned Fortran in France. All the variable names in the 5000+ lines > of code were two-letter abbreviations of Portuguese or French terms, > and all the comments were in either Portuguese or French. I knew > literary Spanish. > > First thing I did, out of sheer bewilderment, was to change a FORMAT > statement to print dollar signs in front of the calculated costs, and > it made a 4 million dollar difference. I told my boss, who thought > about 3 seconds, and said "Forget it." > > Got the job done, though I'm damned if I know how. > > Did you know Macintosh firmware, at least until very recently, was > written in Forth? Might still be. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From shkodrov at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 23:50:03 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back To The Library In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050601210937.0cbe5eb0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <20050602035003.78832.qmail@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> Jeez, Marx is leading the list... I feel harmed now! I always wanted to know how the "harm" is measured. Any ideas? Now, when the time is all over... Here is the list with covers too :) -- remember the images -- titles are harmful too! (but to be honest, they don't claim "all times" -- just 19th and 20th centuries) http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=7591 -- >From Human Events magazine, a list of the most harmful books of all time: 1. The Communist Manifesto Authors: Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels 2. Mein Kampf Author: Adolf Hitler 3. Quotations from Chairman Mao Author: Mao Zedong 4. The Kinsey Report Author: Alfred Kinsey 5. Democracy and Education Author: John Dewey 6. Das Kapital Author: Karl Marx 7. The Feminine Mystique Author: Betty Friedan 8. The Course of Positive Philosophy Author: Auguste Comte 9. Beyond Good and Evil Author: Freidrich Nietzsche 10. General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money Author: John Maynard Keynes Honorable Mention The Population Bomb by Paul Ehrlich What Is To Be Done by V.I. Lenin Authoritarian Personality by Theodor Adorno On Liberty by John Stuart Mill Beyond Freedom and Dignity by B.F. Skinner Reflections on Violence by Georges Sorel The Promise of American Life by Herbert Croly Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin Madness and Civilization by Michel Foucault Soviet Communism: A New Civilization by Sidney and Beatrice Webb Coming of Age in Samoa by Margaret Mead Unsafe at Any Speed by Ralph Nader Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir Prison Notebooks by Antonio Gramsci Silent Spring by Rachel Carson Wretched of the Earth by Frantz Fanon Introduction to Psychoanalysis by Sigmund Freud The Greening of America by Charles Reich The Limits to Growth by Club of Rome Descent of Man by Charles Darwin Tad Richards www.opus40.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 1 23:49:26 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:49:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta> References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> <1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta> <013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> <014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin> <1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <429E81C6.3050904@ix.netcom.com> <"stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content.> See Below: <"Rare event for computer programmers as a class to be called "real men". Usually to be called a real man I have to point out my study of martial arts, or some other stereotypically he-man occupation (I don't pump iron, working on cars is no fun for me and I play basketball and soccer, not baseball or American football).> Uche Ogbuji wrote: >On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 01:18 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > >>When it comes to professional computer programmers on a poetry List, I think >>poetryetc has the highest ratio of anywhere else that I've ever encountered. >> >> ... more Real Men than Quiche Eaters there. >> >> > >Rare event for computer programmers as a class to be called "real men". >Usually to be called a real man I have to point out my study of martial >arts, or some other stereotypically he-man occupation (I don't pump >iron, working on cars is no fun for me and I play basketball and soccer, >not baseball or American football). > >I do usually avoid quiche, though. > > > From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Jun 1 11:49:48 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:49:48 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back To The Library In-Reply-To: <200506020303.j5233jRe027476@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200506020303.j5233jRe027476@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Gratified to see you getting on the right side, didn't think you had it in you. Thanks. Not enough women represented. I'd thrown in most everything by FemiMarxians Hillary Clinton and Anne Waldman, especially where they discuss the raising of children and their attitudes regarding their own country. ("It Takes A Village" and "Iovis") > >Message: 19 >Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:01:14 -0400 >From: "The Old Mole" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back To > The Library >To: >Message-ID: <00b201c56716$f7a45290$6401a8c0 at MoleHQ> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > From Human Events magazine, a list of the most harmful books of all time: > >1. The Communist Manifesto >Authors: Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels > >2. Mein Kampf >Author: Adolf Hitler > > >3. Quotations from Chairman Mao >Author: Mao Zedong > >4. The Kinsey Report >Author: Alfred Kinsey > > >5. Democracy and Education >Author: John Dewey > > >6. Das Kapital >Author: Karl Marx > >7. The Feminine Mystique >Author: Betty Friedan > > >8. The Course of Positive Philosophy >Author: Auguste Comte > >9. Beyond Good and Evil >Author: Freidrich Nietzsche > > >10. General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money >Author: John Maynard Keynes > >Honorable Mention > >The Population Bomb >by Paul Ehrlich > >What Is To Be Done >by V.I. Lenin > >Authoritarian Personality >by Theodor Adorno > >On Liberty >by John Stuart Mill > >Beyond Freedom and Dignity >by B.F. Skinner > >Reflections on Violence >by Georges Sorel > >The Promise of American Life >by Herbert Croly > >Origin of the Species >by Charles Darwin > >Madness and Civilization >by Michel Foucault > >Soviet Communism: A New Civilization >by Sidney and Beatrice Webb > >Coming of Age in Samoa >by Margaret Mead > >Unsafe at Any Speed >by Ralph Nader > >Second Sex >by Simone de Beauvoir > >Prison Notebooks >by Antonio Gramsci > >Silent Spring >by Rachel Carson > >Wretched of the Earth >by Frantz Fanon > >Introduction to Psychoanalysis >by Sigmund Freud > >The Greening of America >by Charles Reich > >The Limits to Growth >by Club of Rome > >Descent of Man >by Charles Darwin . -- From stpeter at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 00:04:11 2005 From: stpeter at gmail.com (Peter Saint-Andre) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:04:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] slow time Message-ID: <269c47c05060121042bd32489@mail.gmail.com> Posted at my blog and cross-posted here... http://www.saint-andre.com/blog/2005-06.html#2005-06-01T21:53 ***** The other day, Uche argued for the continued relevance -- indeed, the increased importance -- of poetry in today's fast-paced times, since the concentrated and often difficult nature of poetic language forces the reader to slow down. Yet (as Uche knows) it is more than just diction: it is also the meter (or, more broadly, the rhythm) that induces a kind of slow time when one reads a poem. Poetry is a temporal art in much the same way music is -- and in one respect, a poem enforces slow time even more viscerally than a piece of music does because usually you perform the poem (by reading it silently or aloud to yourself) rather than having it performed for you at a poetry reading or by means of a recording. The post-modernists would call this co-creating the work, and for once they would be right! One likely theory about the emergence of the arts (advanced for example by Ellen Dissanayake) is that human life started to become more complex around 30,000 years ago -- population densities increased, human bands started to interact more often and in more challenging ways with other groups, long-distance trade began to emerge as a key human pursuit, technology (such as it was) improved faster, and so on (sound familiar?). In the face of that increased pace of change and before the emergence of writing, humans needed something to direct attention to important life lessons and improve coherence across larger groups of people. Dissanayake calls this "making special". Poetry, music, paintings (as in European caves), and other forms of patterned representation emerged as ways to structure information; some of the resulting art-forms also structured time in significant ways, slowing it down and making time, too, into something special. While there can be complexity in poetic language or musical formalism, I think the key to these art-forms is not that complexity per se but the fact that their linguistic or musical materials are different from what we normally experience -- and different in ways that set them apart from humdrum existence. Does the slow time of poetic experience have special meaning today? As Uche observes and everyone knows first-hand, life is getting faster and faster. We live in a culture of immediate gratification, sounds bites, the latest news, instant messaging (because email just isn't fast enough -- mea culpa!), continuous partial attention, and what Stuart Brand calls fashion (not clothing styles, but the ever-churning monthly and weekly and daily and hourly changes in what's cool, hot, new, interesting, and different). In contrast to that culture, the slow time of poetic experience induces reflection and introspection -- slowing, pausing, stopping, puzzling, treading, absorbing, and eventually delighting in the meaning of difficult words, fresh metaphors, strange word orders, odd grammatical constructions, assonance, alliteration, rhyme, meter, and all the other tricks of the poetic trade. In that pursuit of slow time, I find nothing as valuable as new poetry. While I love to read old and even ancient poetry (my favorites being Horace and Sappho), poems by authors from the last hundred years (my favorites include Langston Hughes, Walter Kaufmann, and Timothy Steele) often speak to me more deeply because their language and concerns are more naturally my own. Unfortunately, too many poets of the last hundred years thought it was perfectly acceptable to write poems without much form or difficulty -- what Robert Frost called the equivalent of tennis without a net. Yet it is precisely form (meter) and that sense of something familiar yet different and special that induces poetic "slow time". Thankfully, more and more poets are rediscovering their craft and the roots of their art, with the result that they are again making something special. Here's to new poetry! Peter From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 2 01:36:39 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:36:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta><009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <016c01c56717$a4a431e0$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <005201c56735$10275d30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Robin - I don't think you're offensive. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Greetings >> Uche - it's always gonna be that way. Any list, not just this one. Best > bet >> is just to follow the threads you like, use a fast delete finger on the >> others. >> >> Tad Richards > > Platitudes, Tad -- I may be offensive but at least I'm specific. > > Nah? > > > > The Red Rover > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 2 01:36:14 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:36:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back To The Library In-Reply-To: <20050602035003.78832.qmail@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050602035003.78832.qmail@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <429E9ACE.2020104@ix.netcom.com> Thanks Rosie/Tad. One could have a lot of fun with this. FIZZ Rosie Shkodrov wrote: > Jeez, Marx is leading the list... I feel harmed now! I always wanted > to know how the "harm" is measured. Any ideas? Now, when the time is > all over... > > Here is the list with covers too :) -- remember the images -- titles > are harmful too! > (but to be honest, they don't claim "all times" -- just 19th and 20th > centuries) > > http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=7591 > > -- > From Human Events magazine, a list of the most harmful books of all time: > > 1. The Communist Manifesto > Authors: Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels > > 2. Mein Kampf > Author: Adolf Hitler > > > 3. Quotations from Chairman Mao > Author: Mao Zedong > > 4. The Kinsey Report > Author: Alfred Kinsey > > > 5. Democracy and Education > Author: John Dewey > > > 6. Das Kapital > Author: Karl Marx > > 7. The Feminine Mystique > Author: Betty Friedan > > > 8. The Course of Positive Philosophy > Author: Auguste Comte > > 9. Beyond Good and Evil > Author: Freidrich Nietzsche > > > 10. General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money > Author: John Maynard Keynes > > Honorable Mention > > The Population Bomb > by Paul Ehrlich > > What Is To Be Done > by V.I. Lenin > > Authoritarian Personality > by Theodor Adorno > > On Liberty > by John Stuart Mill > > Beyond Freedom and Digni! ty > by B.F. Skinner > > Reflections on Violence > by Georges Sorel > > The Promise of American Life > by Herbert Croly > > Origin of the Species > by Charles Darwin > > Madness and Civilization > by Michel Foucault > > Soviet Communism: A New Civilization > by Sidney and Beatrice Webb > > Coming of Age in Samoa > by Margaret Mead > > Unsafe at Any Speed > by Ralph Nader > > Second Sex > by Simone de Beauvoir > > Prison Notebooks > by Antonio Gramsci > > Silent Spring > by Rachel Carson > > Wretched of the Earth > by Frantz Fanon > > Introduction to Psychoanalysis > by Sigmund Freud > > The Greening of America > by Charles Reich > > The Limits to Growth > by Club of Rome > > Descent of Man > by Charles Darwin > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 04:33:18 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:33:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta><009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><016c01c56717$a4a431e0$f19c9951@Robin> <005201c56735$10275d30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <01f901c5674d$bb86e610$f19c9951@Robin> > Robin - I don't think you're offensive. Gonna have to try harder then, Tad. [Oh my aching head -- gonna have to lay off the rough cider, or at least stop posting when I get pixilated.] It's when I wake up, and don't seem to have made sense even to myself ... As a penance, might translate a few more Paul the Usher poems, and mibee even post one to the list for excoriation. The Red Rover. > >> Uche - it's always gonna be that way. Any list, not just this one. Best > > bet > >> is just to follow the threads you like, use a fast delete finger on the > >> others. > >> > >> Tad Richards > > > > Platitudes, Tad -- I may be offensive but at least I'm specific. > > > > Nah? > > > > > > > > The Red Rover From uche at ogbuji.net Thu Jun 2 08:01:21 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:01:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Memorial Day Poem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117713681.8026.5.camel@malatesta> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 04:55 -0500, Paul Lake wrote: > Just got back to my office. Here's a belated memorial day poem. > PIECES > > The queen moves with unbounded liberty. > Slant-eyed, a bishop offers up a prayer. > A horse-faced gallant full of chivalry > Enters the family trade, an officer. > A rook, high as a silo, lets fire fall, > Then ends its run behind a remnant pawn. > The king strolls past his garden?s rose-grown wall > To issue statements from the castle lawn. > > Only the pawns, bald-domed as army ants, > Urged to the common good by stripes and prayers, > Regard the board, cursed with their consciousness > Of all the horror of those empty squares. > > Paul Lake I like this one very much. Thanks, Paul. I'd love to post it on my Weblog (I usually post excerpts, but this is a short one). Do you permit that? I'd respect proper attribution (of course) and link to a site of your choice. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From uche at ogbuji.net Thu Jun 2 08:05:45 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:05:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative commons Message-ID: <1117713945.8026.11.camel@malatesta> I just asked Paul Lake for permission to post one of his poems on my Web site. This made me wonder whether anyone uses Creative Commons to mark the permitted use of their poems? http://creativecommons.org/ If not, I highly recommend it. I'm not always as scrupulous as I should be in marking my works with the CC "deed", but my usual intent for all my writing is attribution, share-alike: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/1.0/ -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From uche at ogbuji.net Thu Jun 2 08:12:32 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:12:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Francis Berry In-Reply-To: <014901c5670c$7a83be90$f19c9951@Robin> References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> <1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> <1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta> <014901c5670c$7a83be90$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <1117714353.8026.14.camel@malatesta> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 01:46 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > You come on Francis Berry's stuff? "Morant Bay", Governer Eyre, and the > Jamaica colony -- make your hair stand on end, that would. > > Damn good poetry, whatever. The name is familiar, but I don't think I've read anything by him. The Google gloss on him is very interesting. I'll have to learn more. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From uche at ogbuji.net Thu Jun 2 08:29:15 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:29:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Real quiche In-Reply-To: <015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin> References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> <1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> <014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin> <1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta> <015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <1117715355.8026.30.camel@malatesta> I suppose this is now itself a thread that will have some running for their Del key. Funny thing. On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 02:18 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Rare event for computer programmers as a class to be called "real men". > > *JEEZUS*, Uche, are you ever so young or am I ever so old? I'm 34. > Real Men thought in machine code, Quiche Eaters programmed in Basic. Strange, that. I started with BASIC (12 years old) and soon switched to machine code because BASIC was too slow. A lot of my colleagues followed the same path, and they tend to be much better programmers than the average. > Ah, right, I *am* ever so old. > > :-( > > The term goes back back to the seventies, so mibee before your time. I know the term "real men don't eat quiche". I know many terms that predate my time. I'm curious about the past, like that :-) > > Usually to be called a real man I have to point out my study of martial > > arts, or some other stereotypically he-man occupation (I don't pump > > iron, working on cars is no fun for me and I play basketball and soccer, > > not baseball or American football). > > Different context ... > > > I do usually avoid quiche, though. > > I like to eat it, but I still get embarrassed that I can be typed as The > Ultimate Quiche Eater. Nothing to do with machismo for me. I just don't like cheese in such quantity. I don't east Wisconsin style party potatoes either, which are about 2 parts cheese, one part potato, as I've learned from my Wisconsinite wife. > A Power User > > {Who got paid ?65 Way-Back-When for writing, "Serial File Programming on the > Dragon 32."] > > The Dragon 32 wasn't quite a clone of the Trash80, but a straight Welsh rip > of the Co-Co. I knew the Dragon 32. My earliest computing was on the British axis (I lived in Nigeria). My first computer was a ZX Spectrum 64. My second an Amstrad PCW. > Few enough of us who can play this game -- are you too young to hit on the > use of Reverse Polish Number Notation on the Ace (running Forth as an OS, > and a keyboard that mimicked Clive Sinclair's corpse-handed ZX80 physical > interface)? I never used an Ace. I did play with Forth, but on the Amstrad. My friend had a ZX80, and it was execrable. > Best I ever did was mickey mouse in OS9, stand-alone Unix for Children. > > I *really* liked that. Sure. OS9 beats the pants off CP/M, on which I got stuck for a while (the Amstrad again). > Just barely my speed. > > EVER so long ago ... > > The Stoned Dormouse. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 2 08:45:33 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:45:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta><009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><016c01c56717$a4a431e0$f19c9951@Robin><005201c56735$10275d30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01f901c5674d$bb86e610$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <000901c56770$fb8d59b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Oh yeah???? Well, now you've gone too far. I'm offended!!! Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Greetings >> Robin - I don't think you're offensive. > > Gonna have to try harder then, Tad. > > > > [Oh my aching head -- gonna have to lay off the rough cider, or at least > stop posting when I get pixilated.] > > It's when I wake up, and don't seem to have made sense even to myself ... > > As a penance, might translate a few more Paul the Usher poems, and mibee > even post one to the list for excoriation. > > The Red Rover. > >> >> Uche - it's always gonna be that way. Any list, not just this one. >> >> Best >> > bet >> >> is just to follow the threads you like, use a fast delete finger on >> >> the >> >> others. >> >> >> >> Tad Richards >> > >> > Platitudes, Tad -- I may be offensive but at least I'm specific. >> > >> > Nah? >> > >> > >> > >> > The Red Rover > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 2 08:47:01 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:47:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings Message-ID: <59.28c47478.2fd059c5@cs.com> In a message dated 6/1/2005 7:44:06 PM Central Daylight Time, uche at ogbuji.net writes: > > I do usually avoid quiche, though. > I both make and eat quiche. Anybody wanna make anything of it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 08:51:45 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:51:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Francis Berry References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta><014901c5670c$7a83be90$f19c9951@Robin> <1117714353.8026.14.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <028f01c56771$d5ac9570$f19c9951@Robin> [Francis Berry] > The name is familiar, but I don't think I've read anything by him. The > Google gloss on him is very interesting. I'll have to learn more. > > -- > Uche Ogbuji His +Collected Poems+ were published in 1994. (Redcliffe, Bristol, with an intro by Philip Hobsbaum.) "Morant Bay" (about Paul Bogle and the Jamaican slave revolt) and "Ghosts of Greenland" were his two best books. He writes as if poetry had developed from the Gawain Poet rather than Chaucer -- better than the rubbish Auden promulgated in +Age of Anxiety+, and more extended than Pound in "The Seafarer" and Canto 1. A good way in is via "Hvalsey". It's not on the web, so I'll scan it in. (Sod copyright -- it's an advert for his work.) Robin Hvalsey I didn't want to go there, I didn't, I was driven Denying I wanted to go there, creaking out Damn To the demons with my boards, rasping out No-o-o With my ropes, rearing, romping, rattling, driven South of Iceland (there's the Jokull Glacier), driven (The horizon is heaving), driven and driving Kap Farvel around, and up the west coast. And there I stayed Four years, and what I saw Main things that occurred? - Will now be said. First, and O last, there was the burning, but we'll leave that. Now I had carried a woman, and do you know That this woman with her rambles over three years on the shore Got married to a Greenlander, and this Greenlander (It was this, and not the other way round, I am sure) Was a giant of a man; and they married, Married in Hvalsey Church, and the church bell tonged Till my very tall lone mast ached, and the bell tanged Because of the bitingly pale blue of the sky when they came out, As though every tooth and nail, and every nerve and tail, of my hulk Dinned and stung in delight and washed in dismay. But that was alright. But what was not alright Was the burning, and that was my third year Here. I don't like it. Will not like it Ever. Well, they said that this Kolgrim -- Greenlander, yes, but black-browed, mean smile, thick hair? Practised the Black Arts to get her so Get her SO, you understand, the wife of the second Carpenter (that's all he was, that's all he was Tinkering me, the said ship). Well, they got him For doing the Black Arts, and they did him -- Greenlander though he was, and she only an Icelander -- in this way ... But I can't go on, I must go on, I am driven. They got him, this Kolgrim, and they judged him Not of Adultery, but of Black Arts Guilty, and they burnt ... This year, after the marriage spoken of, Fourth year. And they burnt. Wood scarce in Greenland. And the bonfire Attracted. And the sight. Attracted. And the screams Attracted. Attracted, attracted, attracted, attracted more More, more, more than the marriage (And there were many, many were there a year or so Earlier.) And the woman, wife of the second Carpenter (she wasn't worth it, that you do know), She went hopping at the burning, and, after hopping, mad, Mad soon after. And leering. And dangerous. But she died. These things I saw During four years compulsory stay At Hvalsey (Whale's Island), driven, driven there Without my knowing, or my will, or my consent, Anything. And now they say Sheep stray into the roofless church of Hvalsey And dirty on its altar. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 2 08:59:35 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:59:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta><009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><016c01c56717$a4a431e0$f19c9951@Robin><005201c56735$10275d30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01f901c5674d$bb86e610$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <003d01c56772$edb8efa0$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Robin - I don't think you're offensive. > > Gonna have to try harder then, Tad. Don't bother, Robin--no one can look offensive when I'm posting. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 09:01:42 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:01:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta><009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><016c01c56717$a4a431e0$f19c9951@Robin><005201c56735$10275d30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><01f901c5674d$bb86e610$f19c9951@Robin> <000901c56770$fb8d59b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <029e01c56773$398a92d0$f19c9951@Robin> > Oh yeah???? Well, now you've gone too far. I'm offended!!! > > > Tad Richards And yah boo sucks to you too, matey. Rather than trying to offend you any more, when I get back from the local shop to restock my cider, I'll post a Paul the Usher translation, and bore you rigid instead. So go suffer. The Stone Dormouse. > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin Hamilton" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:33 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Greetings > > > >> Robin - I don't think you're offensive. > > > > Gonna have to try harder then, Tad. > > > > > > > > [Oh my aching head -- gonna have to lay off the rough cider, or at least > > stop posting when I get pixilated.] > > > > It's when I wake up, and don't seem to have made sense even to myself ... > > > > As a penance, might translate a few more Paul the Usher poems, and mibee > > even post one to the list for excoriation. > > > > The Red Rover. > > > >> >> Uche - it's always gonna be that way. Any list, not just this one. > >> >> Best > >> > bet > >> >> is just to follow the threads you like, use a fast delete finger on > >> >> the > >> >> others. > >> >> > >> >> Tad Richards > >> > > >> > Platitudes, Tad -- I may be offensive but at least I'm specific. > >> > > >> > Nah? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > The Red Rover > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 09:06:51 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:06:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta><009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><016c01c56717$a4a431e0$f19c9951@Robin><005201c56735$10275d30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><01f901c5674d$bb86e610$f19c9951@Robin> <003d01c56772$edb8efa0$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <02af01c56773$f1ffcba0$f19c9951@Robin> > Don't bother, Robin--no one can look offensive when I'm posting. > > --Bob Wanna bet? You ain't yet seen me on a bad hair day. The Stoned Dormouse. (Welcome back -- how did the Cummings [sic!] presentation go? R.) From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 2 09:15:28 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:15:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back To The Library References: <200506020303.j5233jRe027476@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <004f01c56775$25a6f360$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Gratified to see you getting on the right side, didn't think you had it in > you. Thanks. Not enough women represented. I'd thrown in most > everything by FemiMarxians Hillary Clinton and Anne Waldman, especially > where they discuss the raising of children and their attitudes regarding > their own country. ("It Takes A Village" and "Iovis") Well, Richard, sorry to say I think it an imbecilic list--though I'd agree that eight or nine of the top ten named are among the world's stupidest books. (Nietzsche is a favorite of mine, and while I disagree with Marxianism almost maximally, his and Engles's book was importantly and beneficially provocative). Why, I wonder, was the Bible not on the list? I hate lists like this because they implicitly call for censorship. They also err in considering books causes rather than effects. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 2 09:18:57 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:18:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings Message-ID: <1e1.3db44989.2fd06141@aol.com> In a message dated 6/2/2005 8:47:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: I do usually avoid quiche, though. I both make and eat quiche. Anybody wanna make anything of it? I've even been known to eat 'crustless quiche'...o the shame. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 2 09:21:06 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:21:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative commons References: <1117713945.8026.11.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <005a01c56775$ef332c30$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I just asked Paul Lake for permission to post one of his poems on my Web > site. This made me wonder whether anyone uses Creative Commons to mark > the permitted use of their poems? Didn't know of it but would approve if permission were not granted for commercial use of my work. Commercial users should have to pay the creator of a work. So I would charge mainstream publishers a fee, but not micro- and small press people. --Bob G. From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Thu Jun 2 09:29:01 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry In-Reply-To: <029a01c56701$db91f090$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <12a.5e4bd8bc.2fcb05fe@aol.com> <029a01c56701$db91f090$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Well, now this brings me to an interesting question - and let me say right here: THIS IS NOT CONTENTIOUS...trust me - I don't have the strength. But if each of us had to name, say, the two or three greatest living or writing poets in ANY language, who would they be? As I write this I realize this is a purely greedy question on my part. On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/29/2005 7:44:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bardo at optonline.net writes: > . . . Paglia finds "too much work by the most acclaimed poets labored, affected, and verbose, intended not to communicate with the general audience but to impress their fellow poets. Poetic language has become stale and derivative." She is "shocked at how weak individual poems have become over the past forty years." Poets today "have lost ambition and no longer believe they can or should speak for their era." This situation is particularly dire because "at this time of foreboding about the future of Western culture, it is crucial to identify and preserve our finest artifacts." And you thought only our "democracy" was under attack! No, they want our Norton anthologies, too. If they hit us again, how shall we fight them, now that our poetic language has become "stale and derivative"? Of what use against their bombs will our sagging synecdoches be? If only Grumman made fresh metaphors, too... > > But this is just a rehash of the same thing one critic or school or another has been saying about poetry since, well, forever. And when someone does pick out "our ifnest artifiacts," I don't think it's going to be Camille Paglia. > > What do you know, you and I agree on this one, Al. I love the stale and derivative language Camille uses to express her stale and derivative ideas about what's happening in poetry today. Sure, most acclaimed poets aren't that great, as usual (as David points out in a later post to this thread, which I'm reading after being away for a while). But what's this about poets of today having "lost ambition?" How can she possibly know, since it's clear she knows next to nothing about poets of today? > > --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jun 2 09:29:51 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:29:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative commons In-Reply-To: <005a01c56775$ef332c30$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <1117713945.8026.11.camel@malatesta> <005a01c56775$ef332c30$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <12665267.1117718992071.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Thursday, June 02, 2005, at 09:21AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >>I just asked Paul Lake for permission to post one of his poems on my Web >> site. This made me wonder whether anyone uses Creative Commons to mark >> the permitted use of their poems? > >Didn't know of it but would approve if permission were not granted for >commercial use of my work. Commercial users should have to pay the creator >of a work. So I would charge mainstream publishers a fee, but not micro- >and small press people. > >--Bob G. > Follow Uche's links -- there are provisions for just that. CC doesn't replace copywrite -- it makes explicit a set of user-selectable extensions to permissions for specified classes of users. I use a Creative Commons license on my blog. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Thu Jun 2 09:51:45 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> <1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta> <013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> <1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta> <009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Uche, Could I be a recipient of any of this information too??? I have been a little immersed in cultures of some African countries in the last few years - I work for a self-instructional language center where we teach Swahili, Twi, WOlof, Yoruba, but also create language learning materials, some web-based, and I had the opportunity, for some of our websites, to do ALOT of interviewing of international students, particularly of Tanzania, Kenya, Senegal and Ghana. Needless to say, I adored the process and the kids themselves. Utterly impressive kids. Much to say about all of it - in some ways the experience changed me, opened my eyes to some things...but never a discussion of poetry from any of the countries of that continent. So, any little inroads or suggestions of poets is always appreciated... > > > > BTW, your question about African Lit when I joined triggered for me a > > bit of a rewarding re-exploration of the material I have (and have > > allowed to gather too much dust since I moved to the U.S.) I still owe > > you some of the information you requested. I'll get to it soon. > > > > -- > > Uche Ogbuji > > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net > > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 09:55:13 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:55:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poetry Message-ID: <731bb17a0506020655a8957dc@mail.gmail.com> I have a question about . . . ethics, I guess. When a person puts together a "found poem," does he or she ordinarily include a citation for the original source? (God, that sounded academic). What I mean is, does a poet *need* to give credit to an original source when putting together a found poem? I hope that this makes sense. I found something a an online board that I'd like to use. Anybody? Thanks, Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 2 10:03:25 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:03:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <59.28c47478.2fd059c5@cs.com> References: <59.28c47478.2fd059c5@cs.com> Message-ID: <429F11AD.2010406@ix.netcom.com> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/1/2005 7:44:06 PM Central Daylight Time, > uche at ogbuji.net writes: > >> >> I do usually avoid quiche, though. > > > I both make and eat quiche. Anybody wanna make anything of it? Uche says <"stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content."> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jun 2 10:05:42 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:05:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back To The Library In-Reply-To: <004f01c56775$25a6f360$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <200506020303.j5233jRe027476@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <004f01c56775$25a6f360$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: > I hate lists like this because they implicitly call for censorship. > They also err in considering books causes rather than effects. > > --Bob G. When, in fact, they (like almost everything else) are both. Hal Actual Product May Vary from Photos Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jun 2 10:11:12 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:11:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poetry In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0506020655a8957dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a0506020655a8957dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 2, 2005, at 9:55 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > I have a question about . . . ethics, I guess. > ? > When a person puts together a "found poem," does he or she ordinarily > include a citation for the original source?? (God, that sounded > academic).? What I mean is, does a poet *need* to give credit to an > original source when putting together a found poem? > ? > I hope that this makes sense.? I found something a an online board > that I'd like to use. > ? > Anybody? > ? > Thanks, > ? > Jeff Newberry I'll try to answer the question with some questions. Do collage artists list all the sources they use to build their collages? Did Ives cite the composers of all the tunes he used in his various works? Do satirists cite chapter and verse for each work they satirize? For myself, I'd say--sometimes I do, sometimes I do not, and sometimes I forget to do either. > Actual Product May Vary from Photos Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 2 10:18:42 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:18:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Wadsworth Anthology, another doorstop but comes w/CD Message-ID: http://www.newtexts.com/newtexts/book.cfm?book_id=2931 Unlike most other poetry anthologies, arranged only chronologically or limited to the exploration of one type of poem, Jay Parini's WADSWORTH ANTHOLOGY OF POETRY collects 24 smaller, more accessible anthologies in one volume. With the guidance of an editorial board of pre-eminent literary scholars and world-renown poets, Parini has offers a meaningful structure to an ambitious collection, spanning from Beowulf to Jorie Graham. More a teaching and learning text than a definitive body of work, Parini's arrangement of poetry by form, content, and context offers a new way of looking at the teaching of poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jun 2 10:27:03 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:27:03 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poetry Message-ID: <16230718.1117722423829.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I second Hal's definitive answer. But if you're looking for literary precedents & justifications: from Love and Theft, by Mark Ford http://lrb.veriovps.co.uk/v26/n23/ford01_.html " . . . The Modernist impulse to introduce historical documents and sources into poems evolved partly as a reaction against Victorian notions of the ideal poem as a pure, lyric expression of the poet?s genius, a view brilliantly popularised by Palgrave ? with a little help from Tennyson ? in his bestselling anthology. Incorporating material from other sources and people is bound to make poetry impure, messy, diverse, inconclusive. The historical collage-epic is still going strong: Tom Paulin?s The Invasion Handbook (2002), a mix of letters, translations, newspaper reports and poetic portraits arranged to illuminate the origins of the Second World War, is a recent example. Found or collage poems underline the truism that all writing depends on other writing: a poem may aspire to stand alone, but any piece of writing presented as a poem inevitably triggers the reader?s assumptions about what kinds of thing a poem should be or do, which it confirms or modifies or challenges or refutes. And no poet can be for long unaware that however new a ?mixture? may at first seem, to return to Sterne borrowing from Burton, it is also a pouring ?out of one vessel into another?, the result of love and theft, to quote the title of a book by Eric Lott on the origins of blackface minstrelsy in 1820s and 1830s America, a title itself stolen ? as he acknowledges by the use of quotation marks ? by Bob Dylan for his latest album, ?Love and Theft?. At a 1965 press conference in San Francisco, Dylan was surprised to find himself asked not if he was still a folk singer or a protest singer or the voice of his generation, but if he thought he might ever be hung as a thief. The questioner was Allen Ginsberg, and Dylan, whose loving thefts from a vast and eclectic array of musical and literary sources have kept armies of Dylan researchers busy, could only reply, giggling: ?You weren?t supposed to say that.?" -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Jun 2, 2005 7:11 AM To: Jeff Newberry , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Found Poetry On Jun 2, 2005, at 9:55 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > I have a question about . . . ethics, I guess. > ? > When a person puts together a "found poem," does he or she ordinarily > include a citation for the original source?? (God, that sounded > academic).? What I mean is, does a poet *need* to give credit to an > original source when putting together a found poem? > ? > I hope that this makes sense.? I found something a an online board > that I'd like to use. > ? > Anybody? > ? > Thanks, > ? > Jeff Newberry I'll try to answer the question with some questions. Do collage artists list all the sources they use to build their collages? Did Ives cite the composers of all the tunes he used in his various works? Do satirists cite chapter and verse for each work they satirize? For myself, I'd say--sometimes I do, sometimes I do not, and sometimes I forget to do either. > Actual Product May Vary from Photos Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From stpeter at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 10:55:24 2005 From: stpeter at gmail.com (Peter Saint-Andre) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:55:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative commons In-Reply-To: <1117713945.8026.11.camel@malatesta> References: <1117713945.8026.11.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <269c47c05060207552d6f2108@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/05, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > I just asked Paul Lake for permission to post one of his poems on my Web > site. This made me wonder whether anyone uses Creative Commons to mark > the permitted use of their poems? > > http://creativecommons.org/ > > If not, I highly recommend it. I'm not always as scrupulous as I should > be in marking my works with the CC "deed", but my usual intent for all > my writing is attribution, share-alike: > > http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/1.0/ Aw, Creative Commons is for wimps -- I go with plain old Public Domain, myself. :-) But then, I never expect to earn a cent from any of my writings and I have a day gig... http://www.saint-andre.com/me/copyright.html Peter From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jun 2 10:57:10 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:57:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poetry In-Reply-To: <16230718.1117722423829.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <16230718.1117722423829.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Another good source on found poetry would be the 4 or 5 issues of Alex Cigale's *Synaesthetic*, which began its run in, as I recall, 1994. Many examples of found poetry of various types were included, along with some background/discussion/critical essays by Alex. Sorry I don't know where you could find these nowadays, but I'm sure they're out there in Printland somewhere. Hal On Jun 2, 2005, at 10:27 AM, James Cervantes wrote: > I second Hal's definitive answer. But if you're looking for literary > precedents & justifications: > > from Love and Theft, by Mark Ford > http://lrb.veriovps.co.uk/v26/n23/ford01_.html > > " . . . The Modernist impulse to introduce historical documents and > sources into poems evolved partly as a reaction against Victorian > notions of the ideal poem as a pure, lyric expression of the poet?s > genius, a view brilliantly popularised by Palgrave ? with a little > help from Tennyson ? in his bestselling anthology. Incorporating > material from other sources and people is bound to make poetry impure, > messy, diverse, inconclusive. The historical collage-epic is still > going strong: Tom Paulin?s The Invasion Handbook (2002), a mix of > letters, translations, newspaper reports and poetic portraits arranged > to illuminate the origins of the Second World War, is a recent > example. > > Found or collage poems underline the truism that all writing depends > on other writing: a poem may aspire to stand alone, but any piece of > writing presented as a poem inevitably triggers the reader?s > assumptions about what kinds of thing a poem should be or do, which it > confirms or modifies or challenges or refutes. And no poet can be for > long unaware that however new a ?mixture? may at first seem, to return > to Sterne borrowing from Burton, it is also a pouring ?out of one > vessel into another?, the result of love and theft, to quote the title > of a book by Eric Lott on the origins of blackface minstrelsy in 1820s > and 1830s America, a title itself stolen ? as he acknowledges by the > use of quotation marks ? by Bob Dylan for his latest album, ?Love and > Theft?. At a 1965 press conference in San Francisco, Dylan was > surprised to find himself asked not if he was still a folk singer or a > protest singer or the voice of his generation, but if he thought he > might ever be hung as a thief! > . The questioner was Allen Ginsberg, and Dylan, whose loving thefts > from a vast and eclectic array of musical and literary sources have > kept armies of Dylan researchers busy, could only reply, giggling: > ?You weren?t supposed to say that.?" > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson > Sent: Jun 2, 2005 7:11 AM > To: Jeff Newberry , > "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Found Poetry > > > On Jun 2, 2005, at 9:55 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> I have a question about . . . ethics, I guess. >> ? >> When a person puts together a "found poem," does he or she ordinarily >> include a citation for the original source?? (God, that sounded >> academic).? What I mean is, does a poet *need* to give credit to an >> original source when putting together a found poem? >> ? >> I hope that this makes sense.? I found something a an online board >> that I'd like to use. >> ? >> Anybody? >> ? >> Thanks, >> ? >> Jeff Newberry > > I'll try to answer the question with some questions. Do collage artists > list all the sources they use to > build their collages? Did Ives cite the composers of all the tunes he > used in his various works? > Do satirists cite chapter and verse for each work they satirize? > > For myself, I'd say--sometimes I do, sometimes I do not, and sometimes > I forget to do either. > >> Actual Product May Vary from Photos > > Halvard Johnson > halvard at earthlink.net > halvard at gmail.com > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Actual Product May Vary from Photos Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From snakecharmer at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 10:57:48 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:57:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <429F11AD.2010406@ix.netcom.com> References: <59.28c47478.2fd059c5@cs.com> <429F11AD.2010406@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33abf27505060207574871a60a@mail.gmail.com> Considering it started out in geekspeak, there was never any hope for it. Here I was hoping to escape the computer science world on this list. Coding languages. Crazy math programs. I feel like I'm chatting with my husband--I get enough of that stuff at home. And... am I the only one here that prefers a nice, bloody hunk of steak to a damn quiche? On 6/2/05, Alphaville wrote: > > > Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 6/1/2005 7:44:06 PM Central Daylight Time, > > uche at ogbuji.net writes: > > > >> > >> I do usually avoid quiche, though. > > > > > > I both make and eat quiche. Anybody wanna make anything of it? > > Uche says <"stay well away from this thread. There is a good > chance that it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content."> > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake From lattaj at umich.edu Thu Jun 2 11:02:45 2005 From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] A new interview (fwd) Message-ID: Something that may be of some interest to some. Often cheeky, often tongue-in-cheek. John http://herecomeseverybody.blogspot.com/2005/05/john-latta-lives-in-ann-arbor-and.html ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:08:00 -0400 From: Lance Phillips To: coursingpublicthought at earthlink.net Subject: A new interview Hello all, There's a new interview up at Here Comes Everybody (http://herecomeseverybody.blogspot.com). It's John Latta. I hope you all will take a look. Thanks. Lance PS Deadline: June 1, midnight ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Lance Phillips http://lancephillips.blogspot.com [web log] Writers on writing at http://herecomeseverybody.blogspot.com Corpus Socius (Ahsahta Press) ISBN 0-916272-71-0 http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu/books/phillips.htm Cur aliquid vidi (Ahsahta Press) ISBN 0-916272-82-6 http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu/books/phillips2.htm ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jun 2 11:03:22 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:03:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <33abf27505060207574871a60a@mail.gmail.com> References: <59.28c47478.2fd059c5@cs.com> <429F11AD.2010406@ix.netcom.com> <33abf27505060207574871a60a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 2, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Donna Casinghino wrote: > And... am I the only one here that prefers a nice, bloody hunk of > steak to a damn quiche? Comes under the heading of unnecessary choices for me, though I'm not sure I'd have both at the same sitting. Actual Product May Vary from Photos Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jun 2 11:10:55 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:10:55 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings References: <59.28c47478.2fd059c5@cs.com> <429F11AD.2010406@ix.netcom.com> <33abf27505060207574871a60a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c701c56785$464a1a60$eaaa3452@ANNY> all for the quiche without bacon or ham (vegetarian, sorry) http://www.virtualcities.com/ons/0rec/04quiche.htm From: "Donna Casinghino" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:57 PM > Considering it started out in geekspeak, there was never any hope for > it. Here I was hoping to escape the computer science world on this > list. Coding languages. Crazy math programs. I feel like I'm chatting > with my husband--I get enough of that stuff at home. > > And... am I the only one here that prefers a nice, bloody hunk of > steak to a damn quiche? > > > > On 6/2/05, Alphaville wrote: >> >> >> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: >> >> > In a message dated 6/1/2005 7:44:06 PM Central Daylight Time, >> > uche at ogbuji.net writes: >> > >> >> >> >> I do usually avoid quiche, though. >> > >> > >> > I both make and eat quiche. Anybody wanna make anything of it? >> >> Uche says <"stay well away from this thread. There is a good >> chance that it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content."> >> >> >> >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >New-Poetry mailing list >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 2 11:23:19 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:23:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back To The Library In-Reply-To: <004f01c56775$25a6f360$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <200506020303.j5233jRe027476@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <004f01c56775$25a6f360$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <429F2467.4060506@ix.netcom.com> The List Is Edward Bernays Agitprop The list took me away from my work last night. First, I was struck by the ideological consistency of the list and its judges at least at a Reader's Digest level which suggests not so much a broad reading of the texts involved by a knowledgeable much less dispassonate group of people. This very criteria puts the group of judges in league with their number 2 choice of books, Mein Kamp. The list is anti-commie, anti-liberal education, anti-feminist, pro-colonial, anti-revolutionary, anti-environment, anti-socialist, pro-masturbatory/repressed sexuality and interestingly enough the list (not the actual texts) would have a broad appeal for those practicing a formalist poetics. The list is not convincingly antifascist finding only the most obvious Fascist work to place in its anti-Pantheon and leaving out seminal works by the likes of Goebbels and Mussolini etc. and sneaking the lesser known Georges Sorel onto the honorable mention. Where are the Turner Diaries? Or William Shockley's work on eugenics. The inconsistencies as regard content also belie a shallow talk radio ideology. For example, Adorno's (et al) Authoritarian Personality makes the honorable mention list even though it is a lengthy study of the very mind set that accepts Mein Kamp at face value. It strikes one immediately that Adorno's book makes the honorable mention list simply beacuse it was crafted by the Frankfurt School who were Communists and not on its merits or influence. Hannah Arendt much admired the work and drew from it though if memory serves me she is not mentioned on the list. And what about Arendt's lover, Martin Heidegger. Is he mentioned? Does he escape because he manifests some tendencies that the Human Events staff daily emulate? I note I am a reader and admirer of Heidegger's philosophy and if you've ever read Being and Time you'd understand this doea not mean you're a fascist. And that brings us to other difficult texts that are ignored but, at least using broad intuition, might fit the list. The Comte surprises me, but then where's Hobbes (too early?). Some might say that Edward Bernays book, Propaganda, which is the bible for public relations and government agitprop and which the Nazi's drew from extensively as well as the Cold War pro-colonial West should easily have made the top ten. (It perhaps is the only book that need be there). Ask anybody on the shop/killing floor how they feel about Frederick Winslow Taylor's Scientific Management. They probably haven't read it, but they have experienced it, and watch that I told you so twinkle in their eyes when you explain all that horror comes from a book. Notice Bernays and Taylor and many others, though highly influential and deadly, are on the side of capital, so they are not worthy of the list.. There are no poet's on the list. What about Pound? On the Ezra Pound list some fancied calling the Pound's Cantos "the Anthem of Fascism." I challenged that assertion by contacting Neo-Nazi, White Supremacist, Christian Identity etc. groups around the world and asking them what influence the Cantos had on the movements. The results are published in FlashPoint Magazine in a short article called Ezra Skinhead: The Cantos as The "Anthem of Fascism". How'd they miss Howl and Aime Cesaire's Return To My Native Land---people displeased with the negative effects of colonialism & capital. Then there are the scare books that influenced U.S. foreign policy to the tune of $40 billion that impelled that commie pinko Dwight Eisenhower to rage against the military-indisstrial complex. I noticed among the judges from, as far as I could tell, all conservative instituitions heavily dependent on corporate largesse that most benefits from such agit prop as the list, *see Edward Bernays, Propaganda 1928) Herb London* who is President Hudson Institute which was founded by Herman Kahn who wrote On Thermonuclear War among other books, cold war scare mongering techniques about nuclear war and the need for a U.S. first strike against the Soviets as well as the expendability of 40 million Americans, curiously the number of Soviet Russia who died fighting Hitler and his Ukraine, Croat, Estonian et al minions that Human Events now embraces and who were smuggled into the U.S. and elsewhere by the CIA. Now, for you who will say that mutual deterence saved lives, I would direct you to the books on the list that most populate it, 'Quotations from Mao', Fanon, Gramsci, Lenin, Marx and the price people paid around the world who would not yield their labor and natural resources for the maintenance of the American and European Empires. Then we could turn to the shelf with texts on carpet bombing civilian populations, low intensity conflict, NSC-68 and CIA assassination manuals. FIZZ Bob Grumman wrote: >> Gratified to see you getting on the right side, didn't think you had >> it in you. Thanks. Not enough women represented. I'd thrown in >> most everything by FemiMarxians Hillary Clinton and Anne Waldman, >> especially where they discuss the raising of children and their >> attitudes regarding their own country. ("It Takes A Village" and >> "Iovis") > > > Well, Richard, sorry to say I think it an imbecilic list--though I'd > agree that eight or nine of the top ten named are among the world's > stupidest books. (Nietzsche is a favorite of mine, and while I > disagree with Marxianism almost maximally, his and Engles's book was > importantly and beneficially provocative). Why, I wonder, was the > Bible not on the list? > > I hate lists like this because they implicitly call for censorship. > They also err in considering books causes rather than effects. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Jun 2 11:31:01 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:31:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wintering Over Message-ID: Tad asked a question a while back about something Hayden Carruth wrote about Yvor Winters. One thing I like about listservs generally, despite their obvious dysfunctions, is that they often send me to my bookshelf and remind me of things I haven't looked at in a while. I don't know the quotation Tad was seeking, but did get to re-reading some of Carruth's essays (what a wonderful, eclectic critic he's been, as well as poet). And I found an appreciation for Winters's poetry that Carruth wrote in 1953 (in *Effluences from the Sacred Caves*, U Michigan 1983). Well worth reading, on several levels. I wonder if anyone much reads Winters anymore, whether his prose or poetry? Here's a little bit of Carruth on Winters: "Like Ezra Pound, Winters has insisted first on the indispensibility of good writing, the ordinary, basic craft of language without which sensibility is helpless; but he has been more methodical than Pound in telling us what good writing is and even how we may hope to achieve it. No talk of the word, the embracing, affective, supercharged word! No talk either of associations, ambiguities, levels, multiple referents, and the like. (Though these things, he would say, all exist.) But instead, composition: fine metric, right rhyme, structural integrity, the good art of syntax." I suppose we no longer live in an era when a critic could write a phrase like "fine metric, right rhyme, structural integrity, the good art of syntax," without a good deal of defensive qualification. I mean this comment as notation more than nostalgia, though I would also say, all the energies and benefits of postmoderism aside, that fine metric, right rhyme, structural integrity, and the good art of syntax do still exist. At his best, as Carruth reminded me, Winters could be a marvelous poet. Here are a couple that he mentions in his essay as among Winters's best. The Slow Pacific Swell --Yvor Winters Far out of sight forever stands the sea, Bounding the land with pale tranquillity. When a small child, I watched it from a hill At thirty miles or more. The vision still Lies in the eye, soft blue and far away: The rain has washed the dust from April day; Paint-brush and lupine lie against the ground; The wind above the hill-top has the sound Of distant water in unbroken sky; Dark and precise the little steamers ply--- Firm in direction they seem not to stir. That is illusion. The artificer Of quiet, distance holds me in a vise And holds the ocean steady to my eyes. Once when I rounded Flattery, the sea Hove its loose weight like sand to tangle me Upon the washing deck, to crush the hull; Subsiding, dragged flesh at the bone. The skull Felt the retreating wash of dreaming hair. Half drenched in dissolution, I lay bare. I scarcely pulled myself erect; I came Back slowly, slowly knew myself the same. That was the ocean. From the ship we saw Gray whales for miles: the long sweep of the jaw, The blunt head plunging clean above the wave. And one rose in a tent of sea and gave A darkening shudder; water fell away; The whale stood shining, and then sank in spray. A landsman, I. The sea is but a sound. I would be near it on a sandy mound, And hear the steady rushing of the deep While I lay stinging in the sand with sleep. I have lived inland long. The land is numb. It stands beneath the feet, and one may come Walking securely, till the sea extends Its limber margin, and precision ends. By night a chaos of commingling power, The whole Pacific hovers hour by hour. The slow Pacific swell stirs on the sand, Sleeping to sink away, withdrawing land, Heaving and wrinkled in the moon, and blind; Or gathers seaward, ebbing out of mind. ------------------------------------------ To the Holy Spirit Immeasurable haze: The desert valley spreads Up golden river-beds As if in other days. Trees rise and thin away, And past the trees, the hills, Pure line and shade of dust, Bear witness to our wills: We see them, for we must; Calm in deceit, they stay. High noon returns the mind Upon its local fact: Dry grass and sand; we find No vision to distract. Low in the summer heat, Naming old graves, are stones Pushed here and there, the seat Of nothing, and the bones Beneath are similar: Relics of lonely men, Brutal and aimless, then, As now, irregular. These are thy fallen sons, Thou whom I try to reach. Thou whom the quick eye shuns, Thou dost elude my speech. But when I go from sense And trace thee down in thought, I meet thee, then, intense And know thee as I ought. But thou art mind alone, And I, alas, am bound Pure mind to flesh and bone And flesh and bone to ground. These had no thought: at most Dark faith and blinding earth. Where is the trammeled ghost? Was there another birth? Only one certainty Beside thine unfleshed eye, Beside the spectral tree, Can I discern: these die. All of this stir of age, Though it elude my sense Into what heritage I know not, seems to fall Quiet beyond recall, Into irrelevance. --Yvor Winters ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From uche at ogbuji.net Thu Jun 2 11:34:13 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:34:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] May Day Flakes Message-ID: <1117726453.8026.38.camel@malatesta> May Day Flakes Mid Spring Winter comes with sweet insistence. Falling flake wide like petal of flayed paint, Soft like spray of dandelion spore, christens Groaning grass seedling (plump Bud florist stock breed), rump Rock pile from home improvement project feint. We were supposed to to have our fence painted By this weekend. The letter warned of fines. That idle council, declaring suburban Heresy--dire tone of grey flanking our homes-- Proclaimed a ceremonial purge for the times. Tricycles left in front yards, red white-crests Play off smooth snow hillocks of soccer balls. Playground plans, evening sports meets laid to rest, Schools closed, commutes delayed, Airport schedules betrayed, We stare out of windows, struck, yet nature's thralls. The moisture is welcome, our water table, Plunged to record depths, swells in our mind. Perhaps even the bile-blood councils can muster Some chill. Where's the summons? Court date for reckless tort Of zero summer, zero spring divine? --Uche 28 April 2005, Superior From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 11:51:32 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:51:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back ToThe Library References: <200506020303.j5233jRe027476@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <004f01c56775$25a6f360$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <429F2467.4060506@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <032901c5678a$f370f060$f19c9951@Robin> > The List Is Edward Bernays Agitprop > > The list took me away from my work last night. Nice post, Carlo -- enjoyed reading it and found it enlightening. > FlashPoint Magazine in a short article called Ezra Skinhead: The Cantos > as The "Anthem of Fascism". When you refer to the "British Nationalist Party" here, I presume you mean the "British National [sic] Party"? I'd hate to think there were *two* groups of those ... people ... over here. Robin From uche at ogbuji.net Thu Jun 2 12:00:30 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:00:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com> <1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta> <013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin> <1117670711.4800.209.camel@malatesta> <009a01c56715$a5f15d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <1117728030.8026.46.camel@malatesta> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 09:51 -0400, Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > Uche, > > Could I be a recipient of any of this information too??? Sure. I'll be posting to the list. the pressure mounts :-) > I have been a little immersed in cultures of some African countries in the > last few years - I work for a self-instructional language center where we > teach Swahili, Twi, WOlof, Yoruba, Wow. Impressive. But, ah, what's up with that there, ah, Igbo? An extraordinary proportion of black people world-wide are of Igbo ancestry, I've read. I speak Igbo and a little Yoruba, but I've always wanted to learn Efik (from my mother's part of Nigeria), Wolof, Swahili and Isi-Zulu. Maybe some day. Wolof is especially great for learning the origins of a lot of Black American slang. > but > also create language learning materials, some web-based, and I had the > opportunity, for some of > our websites, to do ALOT of interviewing of international students, > particularly of Tanzania, Kenya, Senegal and Ghana. Needless to say, I > adored the process and the kids themselves. Utterly impressive kids. > Much to say about all > of it - in some ways the experience changed me, opened my eyes to some > things...but never a discussion of poetry from any of the countries of > that continent. So, any little inroads or suggestions of poets is always > appreciated... I'll do my best. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From uche at ogbuji.net Thu Jun 2 12:07:27 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:07:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative commons In-Reply-To: <005a01c56775$ef332c30$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <1117713945.8026.11.camel@malatesta> <005a01c56775$ef332c30$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1117728447.8026.52.camel@malatesta> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 09:21 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >I just asked Paul Lake for permission to post one of his poems on my Web > > site. This made me wonder whether anyone uses Creative Commons to mark > > the permitted use of their poems? > > Didn't know of it but would approve if permission were not granted for > commercial use of my work. Commercial users should have to pay the creator > of a work. So I would charge mainstream publishers a fee, but not micro- > and small press people. You can express this using the attribution, non-commercial, share-alike license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/ There is a very handy wizard which asks you simple questions about your intended restrictions, and leads you to a suitable license: http://creativecommons.org/license/ Also see their examples page: http://creativecommons.org/learn/licenses/examples -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 12:19:26 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:19:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Real quiche References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin><1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta><015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin> <1117715355.8026.30.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <033901c5678e$d91a17b0$f19c9951@Robin> Uche: > I suppose this is now itself a thread that will have some running for > their Del key. Funny thing. Mm, yeah. Would go down a bundle with some on poetryetc, though. (Good idea to split threads this way, so people can delete without feeling the might be missing something.) > > *JEEZUS*, Uche, are you ever so young or am I ever so old? > > I'm 34. Thou mere child!!! > > Real Men thought in machine code, Quiche Eaters programmed in Basic. > > Strange, that. I started with BASIC (12 years old) and soon switched to > machine code because BASIC was too slow. A lot of my colleagues > followed the same path, and they tend to be much better programmers than > the average. Interesting. I could never get my head round machine code, and went the other way (though not that far) -- a smidgin of Prolog, Forth, and C. But then I never considered myself a serious programmer -- just as well, that, as I wasn't. > > The term goes back back to the seventies, so mibee before your time. > > I know the term "real men don't eat quiche". I know many terms that > predate my time. I'm curious about the past, like that :-) See, to you it's history, whereas I *am* history. > > The Dragon 32 wasn't quite a clone of the Trash80, but a straight Welsh rip > > of the Co-Co. > > I knew the Dragon 32. My earliest computing was on the British axis (I > lived in Nigeria). My first computer was a ZX Spectrum 64. My second > an Amstrad PCW. My first was a ZX80, my second a Dragon 32. Other than for playing Co-Co games, the Dr32 was pretty crap. The Dragon 64 however, could run OS9, which was how anyone with any sense used it. (A major factor in the crash&burn of the Atari ST was Sam Trameil's decision to allow his idiot nephew to write the OS, rather than using OS009. Otherwise I might still be using it.) > I never used an Ace. I did play with Forth, but on the Amstrad. My > friend had a ZX80, and it was execrable. Surprised that the Armstrad had the ability to run Forth. I ran it on the Dragon. Agree that the ZX80 was execrable. (Not to speak of the 1 K memory. Which did make for tight programming, though.) > Sure. OS9 beats the pants off CP/M, on which I got stuck for a while > (the Amstrad again). No argument there. CP/M was old hat even when Alan Sugar installed it on the Amstrad. Somehow I managed to totally miss-out on working in a CP/M environment. Thank the ever-living. Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 12:39:53 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:39:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Computer Poem for Uche (delete this thread if ...) References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin><1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta><015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin><1117715355.8026.30.camel@malatesta> <033901c5678e$d91a17b0$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <035201c56791$b4b61d80$f19c9951@Robin> This dates from the late sixties -- thus the languages referred to. (Sheesh, I must have written this before Uche was even born!!! Ouch.) R. THE SEMIOLOGICAL INVESTIGATIONS OF THE (ELECTRONIC) MOUSE IN THE WAINSCOTING He lived on radio waves among the plastic furnishings. He once acted as a sniffer-out of illicit wavelengths for the CIA. He listened to and occasionally retransmitted broadcasts. His guts were a length of recording wire. He wasn't often seen and then only on purpose. We called him Smartalec as that seemed to humanise him a little. He used to perch on the cradle by the baby's ear and out of his nose came sound and in his eyes the baby learned to beware of advertising. He had a nervous time when he first ran out of programming, but soon came to depend on the learning-factor which had been built into him. He crossed the Atlantic in a stratojet and for a time was adviser to the President. His scream was the sound of electric guitars, and when he whispered, you had to decode the high frequency waves. He talked in Algol and Fortran to the household computer, and taught it compassion and humanity and even a little humour. He once became drunk on a pirate commercial station and spent five hours explaining that he was the illicit son of Marshall McLuhan. When he died we closed his eyes with a light pencil and tied two used dry-cell batteries to his hind legs and wrapped him in a copy of Time/Life and dropped him down the garbage chute. We occasionally hear his ghost speaking from the unmanned satellites among the stars. ROBIN HAMILTON From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 2 12:57:02 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:57:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poetry References: <731bb17a0506020655a8957dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008f01c56795$4a71d7d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I agree with Hal. You do what the poem demands. Here's a poem of which the entire first stanza is found words -- from a Johnny Weissmuller "Jungle Jim" movie. THE CROCODILE PEOPLE They used to practice cannibalism, until they went away from the river when the colonists came. It's said they have some power over the crocodiles. But since they pulled back, humans are scarce, reptiles live in trees. Oh, you'll still hear the odd story - a child crunch'd, a maiden bathing surprised by one, two, three, shuffling from the bank. Mostly, though, things change. You lose the taste for long pig, and make a virtue of it. Crocodiles, neglected, no longer smile for you. Their memory is ancient, but shallow. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "Jeff Newberry" ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Found Poetry On Jun 2, 2005, at 9:55 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > I have a question about . . . ethics, I guess. > > When a person puts together a "found poem," does he or she ordinarily > include a citation for the original source? (God, that sounded academic). > What I mean is, does a poet *need* to give credit to an original source > when putting together a found poem? > > I hope that this makes sense. I found something a an online board that I'd > like to use. > > Anybody? > > Thanks, > > Jeff Newberry I'll try to answer the question with some questions. Do collage artists list all the sources they use to build their collages? Did Ives cite the composers of all the tunes he used in his various works? Do satirists cite chapter and verse for each work they satirize? For myself, I'd say--sometimes I do, sometimes I do not, and sometimes I forget to do either. > Actual Product May Vary from Photos Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 2 13:16:24 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:16:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Computer Poem for Uche (delete this thread if ...) Message-ID: <1a3.34e00d42.2fd098e8@aol.com> http://www.mit.edu/people/bzbarsky/lesser-known.shtml Other languages of note. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 2 13:17:06 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:17:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Computer Poem for Uche (delete this thread if ...) References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin><1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta><015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin><1117715355.8026.30.camel@malatesta><033901c5678e$d91a17b0$f19c9951@Robin> <035201c56791$b4b61d80$f19c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <00cb01c56796$eb1eb260$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Robin - good one. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 12:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Computer Poem for Uche (delete this thread if ...) > This dates from the late sixties -- thus the languages referred to. > > (Sheesh, I must have written this before Uche was even born!!! Ouch.) > > R. > > THE SEMIOLOGICAL INVESTIGATIONS OF THE (ELECTRONIC) MOUSE IN THE > WAINSCOTING > > He lived on radio waves among the plastic furnishings. > He once acted as a sniffer-out of illicit wavelengths for the CIA. > He listened to and occasionally retransmitted broadcasts. > His guts were a length of recording wire. > He wasn't often seen and then only on purpose. > We called him Smartalec as that seemed to humanise him a little. > He used to perch on the cradle by the baby's ear and out of his nose came > sound and in his eyes the baby learned to beware of advertising. > He had a nervous time when he first ran out of programming, but soon came > to > depend on the learning-factor which had been built into him. > He crossed the Atlantic in a stratojet and for a time was adviser to the > President. > His scream was the sound of electric guitars, and when he whispered, you > had > to decode the high frequency waves. > He talked in Algol and Fortran to the household computer, and taught it > compassion and humanity and even a little humour. > He once became drunk on a pirate commercial station and spent five hours > explaining that he was the illicit son of Marshall McLuhan. > When he died we closed his eyes with a light pencil and tied two used > dry-cell batteries to his hind legs and wrapped him in a copy of Time/Life > and dropped him down the garbage chute. > We occasionally hear his ghost speaking from the unmanned satellites among > the stars. > > ROBIN HAMILTON > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 13:21:11 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:21:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Computer Poem for Uche (delete this thread if ...) References: <269c47c0506011345623df3cb@mail.gmail.com><1117668768.4800.191.camel@malatesta><013b01c56705$22637d10$f19c9951@Robin><014301c56708$8ed41470$f19c9951@Robin><1117672987.7945.2.camel@malatesta><015101c56710$ed0c2160$f19c9951@Robin><1117715355.8026.30.camel@malatesta><033901c5678e$d91a17b0$f19c9951@Robin><035201c56791$b4b61d80$f19c9951@Robin> <00cb01c56796$eb1eb260$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <001301c56797$79f020f0$f19c9951@Robin> > Robin - good one. > > Tad Richards Thanks, Tad. It'll be in my New&Selected (one of the four "selected") out Real Soon Now. hint, hint ... Robin From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jun 2 13:40:44 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:40:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement: Lannan Fellowships to Bobby & Lee Byrd Message-ID: <13e2f644313a3240e56540e56e8c894e@earthlink.net> Great news! Bobby and Lee Byrd of El Paso's Cinco Puntos Press have been awarded Lannan Cultural Freedom Fellowships. Info. on the Lannan Cultural Freedom program at www.lannan.org . Hal Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 2 13:27:42 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:27:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wintering Over References: Message-ID: <00f701c5679d$cf7fc1f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Winters was wonderful - original and scathing, and almost totally wrongheaded - but, as Carruth says, in a way that gave real insight. Here's one of my favorite quotes from him, on Pound: "One would call the style verbose, except that by definition verbosity is the use of words in the excess of the occasion, and here there is no occasion Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:31 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Wintering Over > Tad asked a question a while back about something Hayden Carruth wrote > about > Yvor Winters. One thing I like about listservs generally, despite their > obvious dysfunctions, is that they often send me to my bookshelf and > remind > me of things I haven't looked at in a while. > > I don't know the quotation Tad was seeking, but did get to re-reading some > of Carruth's essays (what a wonderful, eclectic critic he's been, as well > as > poet). > > And I found an appreciation for Winters's poetry that Carruth wrote in > 1953 > (in *Effluences from the Sacred Caves*, U Michigan 1983). Well worth > reading, on several levels. I wonder if anyone much reads Winters > anymore, > whether his prose or poetry? > > Here's a little bit of Carruth on Winters: > > "Like Ezra Pound, Winters has insisted first on the indispensibility of > good > writing, the ordinary, basic craft of language without which sensibility > is > helpless; but he has been more methodical than Pound in telling us what > good > writing is and even how we may hope to achieve it. No talk of the word, > the > embracing, affective, supercharged word! No talk either of associations, > ambiguities, levels, multiple referents, and the like. (Though these > things, he would say, all exist.) But instead, composition: fine metric, > right rhyme, structural integrity, the good art of syntax." > > I suppose we no longer live in an era when a critic could write a phrase > like "fine metric, right rhyme, structural integrity, the good art of > syntax," without a good deal of defensive qualification. I mean this > comment as notation more than nostalgia, though I would also say, all the > energies and benefits of postmoderism aside, that fine metric, right > rhyme, > structural integrity, and the good art of syntax do still exist. > > At his best, as Carruth reminded me, Winters could be a marvelous poet. > Here are a couple that he mentions in his essay as among Winters's best. > > > > > The Slow Pacific Swell > > --Yvor Winters > > > Far out of sight forever stands the sea, > Bounding the land with pale tranquillity. > When a small child, I watched it from a hill > At thirty miles or more. The vision still > Lies in the eye, soft blue and far away: > The rain has washed the dust from April day; > Paint-brush and lupine lie against the ground; > The wind above the hill-top has the sound > Of distant water in unbroken sky; > Dark and precise the little steamers ply--- > Firm in direction they seem not to stir. > That is illusion. The artificer > Of quiet, distance holds me in a vise > And holds the ocean steady to my eyes. > > Once when I rounded Flattery, the sea > Hove its loose weight like sand to tangle me > Upon the washing deck, to crush the hull; > Subsiding, dragged flesh at the bone. The skull > Felt the retreating wash of dreaming hair. > Half drenched in dissolution, I lay bare. > I scarcely pulled myself erect; I came > Back slowly, slowly knew myself the same. > That was the ocean. From the ship we saw > Gray whales for miles: the long sweep of the jaw, > The blunt head plunging clean above the wave. > And one rose in a tent of sea and gave > A darkening shudder; water fell away; > The whale stood shining, and then sank in spray. > > A landsman, I. The sea is but a sound. > I would be near it on a sandy mound, > And hear the steady rushing of the deep > While I lay stinging in the sand with sleep. > I have lived inland long. The land is numb. > It stands beneath the feet, and one may come > Walking securely, till the sea extends > Its limber margin, and precision ends. > By night a chaos of commingling power, > The whole Pacific hovers hour by hour. > The slow Pacific swell stirs on the sand, > Sleeping to sink away, withdrawing land, > Heaving and wrinkled in the moon, and blind; > Or gathers seaward, ebbing out of mind. > ------------------------------------------ > > To the Holy Spirit > > Immeasurable haze: > The desert valley spreads > Up golden river-beds > As if in other days. > Trees rise and thin away, > And past the trees, the hills, > Pure line and shade of dust, > Bear witness to our wills: > We see them, for we must; > Calm in deceit, they stay. > > High noon returns the mind > Upon its local fact: > Dry grass and sand; we find > No vision to distract. > Low in the summer heat, > Naming old graves, are stones > Pushed here and there, the seat > Of nothing, and the bones > Beneath are similar: > Relics of lonely men, > Brutal and aimless, then, > As now, irregular. > > These are thy fallen sons, > Thou whom I try to reach. > Thou whom the quick eye shuns, > Thou dost elude my speech. > But when I go from sense > And trace thee down in thought, > I meet thee, then, intense > And know thee as I ought. > But thou art mind alone, > And I, alas, am bound > Pure mind to flesh and bone > And flesh and bone to ground. > > These had no thought: at most > Dark faith and blinding earth. > Where is the trammeled ghost? > Was there another birth? > Only one certainty > Beside thine unfleshed eye, > Beside the spectral tree, > Can I discern: these die. > All of this stir of age, > Though it elude my sense > Into what heritage > I know not, seems to fall > Quiet beyond recall, > Into irrelevance. > > --Yvor Winters > > > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From gbach at csulb.edu Thu Jun 2 14:13:33 2005 From: gbach at csulb.edu (Glenn Bach) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:13:33 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Found Poetry References: <200506021600.j52G04Rc032355@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <429F4C4D.6000504@csulb.edu> > On Jun 2, 2005, at 9:55 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: >>When a person puts together a "found poem," does he or she ordinarily >>include a citation for the original source? I'm interested in this as well, as my current project involves a good amount of found poetry, google-search lifting, rearrangements of dictionary/wikipedia entries, etc. Like a sound artist using samples, I usually do not cite a source if I've "remixed" it beyond recognition (I keep a record, however, of all of my sources, regardless). If I'm lifting an intact phrase or sentence, I often italicize the text and cite it in my endnotes. I also cite if the collection of words, no matter how shuffled, still points somehow to a source. I'm still unsure, however, about the mechanism of including a citation with an individual poem that I send out for possible publication--epigram, footnote, mention in the cover letter? I just don't know how to do it without it appearing clunky or interfering with the flow of the poem. I remember seeing successful instances of this in the past, before this issue really concerned me, and so now I'd be interested in seeing any recent examples. The topic of footnote/endnote formatting came up several months ago on one of the lists (Poetics?), and folks suggested Carole Maso's AVA, Lyn Hejinian's A Border Comedy, et al., but this discussion mostly dealt with completed manuscripts. [I'm also reading Olson's Maximus Poems (a few pages at a time each morning), and he lifted, with various degrees of re-wording, entire passages from his research, and only in Butterick's notes are the sources listed.] Halvard Johnson wrote: > Another good source on found poetry would be the 4 or 5 issues of Alex > Cigale's *Synaesthetic*, > which began its run in, as I recall, 1994. Many examples of found > poetry of various types were > included, along with some background/discussion/critical essays by Alex. I found a sample of the first issue: http://www.etext.org/Zines/ASCII/Synaesthetic/synaesthetic SYNAESTHETIC Editor: Alex Cigale EDITOR'S NOTE All poetry is found poetry; some poems are more found than others. The enigmatic title of "India Widow's Death at...", for example, consists simply of the first seven syllables of a New York Times headline from an article on the Hindu custom of sati, about the ritual self-immolation of a widow on her husband's funeral pyre. Found art has been with us since Marcel Duchamp scandalized aesthetisticians by attempting to exhibit in New York a porcelain urinal titled Fountain (1917). Duchamp's Readymade objects, whether framed or not, made the act of selection itself an artistic virtue. His recourse to mechanical reproduction of his own works also brought into question the privileged position of "uniqueness" and "originality" as essential attributes of western art. The poet Jerome Rothenberg, in his anthology of experimental poetry, Revolution of the Word, described Duchamp's method as a "withdrawal from art." One may point to an earlier influence and argue that our arrival at found art proceeds logically from Aristotle's proposition in Poetics, that the object of art is an imitation of life. In Eastern thought, art and life were more intimately linked; the distinction between subject and object was recognized not at all. Daily rituals like the tea ceremony, flower arranging, the cultivation of bonsai trees and rock gardens, as well as the practice of the martial arts (karate, archery, etc.), were all forms of artistic expression. Similarly, African and "primitive" art was but an extension of ritual and function. In part as a product of the 20th century synthesis of Eastern, Western and "primitive" thought, a concern with the thing itself has become preeminent in contemporary visual and literary efforts. If no less an authority than T.S. Eliot avered, a full half-century ago, "immature poets imitate, mature poets steal," why is it that we poets are the last to feel the unremitting obligation to be "original" that Harold Bloom, in his book of the same title, calls "the anxiety of influence"? To answer this question is to resolve a key creative conflict, the issue of "authority," literally the sense of being in full possession of one's material that is the mark of a mature artist. And yet a nagging doubt persists: "But you didn't write this! And, "anyone could have written it, there is nothing 'artistic' about the method." I can only conclude with the following set of observations. The selection of material is of itself a valid, and creative, expression of personal aesthetics. In our technological, informational age an author is neither creator nor proprietor of the information contained (no more so than in the earliest literatures arising from the oral tradition.) Who "owns" or has a right to exploit, a story or event, a sequence of words, or the words themselves? There is, for all practical purposes, an infinite number of poems or fictions that can result from a reconstituted text or a tale retold. Identical material used in an entirely different context constitutes a new identity. Finally, found poems are essentially voice poems; it is narrative that serves to unify the disjointed syntax, images, and voices of the original text. The narrative voice is, of course, the empathic voice of the writer. Found poetry as a format for a literary journal interested me for a number of reasons. First, the incorporation of source material represents a body of shared knowledge and carries with it a potential to inform. My instinct tells me that this may offer an opportunity to extend poetry to an audience it would not otherwise reach. Conversely, the found represents an essential part of the creative process, the struggle to make personal the public and the received. The possibility that Synaesthetic may serve the community of artists as a forum for an ongoing discussion of process and form is truly exhilarating. Contemporary art owes so much to the aesthetics of synthesis that perhaps the most apt manifesto for a modern aesthetic, to restate Marx's paraphrase of the Hegelian dialectic, "All art is found art! Artists of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our conceptual chains." Best, G. http://www.csulb.edu/~gbach/ From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jun 2 15:11:54 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:11:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Found Poetry In-Reply-To: <429F4C4D.6000504@csulb.edu> References: <200506021600.j52G04Rc032355@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <429F4C4D.6000504@csulb.edu> Message-ID: Hey, glad that's out here in the webworld. Seek and ye shall . . . etc. Another source on found poetry may be among the dusty old anthologies down in your library stacks: *Open Poetry* ed. Ronald Gross & George Quasha [NY: Simon & Schuster, 1973], in which there is a section on found poetry, starting out with "A Found Introduction" by John Robert Colombo. Note: Some of the found poems included there identify sources, and some don't. Hal On Jun 2, 2005, at 2:13 PM, Glenn Bach wrote: >> On Jun 2, 2005, at 9:55 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >>> When a person puts together a "found poem," does he or she >>> ordinarily include a citation for the original source? > > I'm interested in this as well, as my current project involves a good > amount of found poetry, google-search lifting, rearrangements of > dictionary/wikipedia entries, etc. Like a sound artist using samples, > I usually do not cite a source if I've "remixed" it beyond recognition > (I keep a record, however, of all of my sources, regardless). If I'm > lifting an intact phrase or sentence, I often italicize the text and > cite it in my endnotes. I also cite if the collection of words, no > matter how shuffled, still points somehow to a source. I'm still > unsure, however, about the mechanism of including a citation with an > individual poem that I send out for possible publication--epigram, > footnote, mention in the cover letter? I just don't know how to do it > without it appearing clunky or interfering with the flow of the poem. > I remember seeing successful instances of this in the past, before > this issue really concerned me, and so now I'd be interested in seeing > any recent examples. > > The topic of footnote/endnote formatting came up several months ago on > one of the lists (Poetics?), and folks suggested Carole Maso's AVA, > Lyn Hejinian's A Border Comedy, et al., but this discussion mostly > dealt with completed manuscripts. [I'm also reading Olson's Maximus > Poems (a few pages at a time each morning), and he lifted, with > various degrees of re-wording, entire passages from his research, and > only in Butterick's notes are the sources listed.] > > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Another good source on found poetry would be the 4 or 5 issues of >> Alex Cigale's *Synaesthetic*, >> which began its run in, as I recall, 1994. Many examples of found >> poetry of various types were >> included, along with some background/discussion/critical essays by >> Alex. > > > I found a sample of the first issue: > http://www.etext.org/Zines/ASCII/Synaesthetic/synaesthetic > > SYNAESTHETIC > Editor: Alex Cigale > > EDITOR'S NOTE > > All poetry is found poetry; some poems are more found than > others. The enigmatic title of "India Widow's Death at...", for > example, consists simply of the first seven syllables of a New York > Times headline from an article on the Hindu custom of sati, about the > ritual self-immolation of a widow on her husband's funeral pyre. > Found art has been with us since Marcel Duchamp scandalized > aesthetisticians by attempting to exhibit in New York a porcelain > urinal titled Fountain (1917). Duchamp's Readymade objects, whether > framed or not, made the act of selection itself an artistic virtue. > His recourse to mechanical reproduction of his own works also brought > into question the privileged position of "uniqueness" and > "originality" as essential > attributes of western art. The poet Jerome Rothenberg, in his > anthology of experimental poetry, Revolution of the Word, described > Duchamp's method as a "withdrawal from art." > One may point to an earlier influence and argue that our arrival > at found art proceeds logically from Aristotle's proposition in > Poetics, that the object of art is an imitation of life. In Eastern > thought, art and life were more intimately linked; the distinction > between subject and object was recognized not at all. Daily rituals > like the tea ceremony, flower arranging, the cultivation of bonsai > trees and rock gardens, as well as the practice of the martial arts > (karate, archery, etc.), were all forms of artistic expression. > Similarly, African and "primitive" art was but an extension of ritual > and function. In part as a product of the 20th century synthesis of > Eastern, Western and "primitive" thought, a concern with the thing > itself has become preeminent in contemporary visual and literary > efforts. > If no less an authority than T.S. Eliot avered, a full > half-century ago, "immature poets imitate, mature poets steal," why is > it that we poets are the last to feel the unremitting obligation to be > "original" that Harold Bloom, in his book of the same title, calls > "the anxiety of influence"? To answer this question is to resolve a > key creative conflict, the issue of "authority," literally the sense > of being in full possession of one's material that is the mark of a > mature artist. > And yet a nagging doubt persists: "But you didn't write this! > And, "anyone could have written it, there is nothing 'artistic' about > the method." I can only conclude with the following set of > observations. The selection of material is of itself a valid, and > creative, expression of personal aesthetics. In our technological, > informational age an author is neither creator nor proprietor of the > information contained (no more so than in the earliest literatures > arising from the oral tradition.) Who "owns" or has a right to > exploit, a story or event, a sequence of words, or the words > themselves? There is, for all practical purposes, an infinite number > of poems or fictions that can result from a reconstituted text or a > tale retold. Identical material used in an entirely different context > constitutes a new identity. Finally, found poems are essentially > voice poems; it is narrative that serves to unify the disjointed > syntax, images, and voices of the original text. The narrative voice > is, of course, the empathic voice of the writer. > Found poetry as a format for a literary journal interested me > for a number of reasons. First, the incorporation of source material > represents a body of shared knowledge and carries with it a potential > to inform. My instinct tells me that this may offer an opportunity to > extend poetry to an audience it would not otherwise reach. > Conversely, the found represents an essential part of the creative > process, the struggle to make personal the public and the received. > The possibility that Synaesthetic may serve the community of artists > as a forum for an ongoing discussion of process and form is truly > exhilarating. > Contemporary art owes so much to the aesthetics of synthesis that > perhaps the most apt manifesto for a modern aesthetic, to restate > Marx's paraphrase of the Hegelian dialectic, "All art is found art! > Artists of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our > conceptual chains." > > > Best, > > G. > > http://www.csulb.edu/~gbach/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Actual Product May Vary from Photos Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From uche at ogbuji.net Thu Jun 2 15:40:46 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:40:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative commons In-Reply-To: <269c47c05060207552d6f2108@mail.gmail.com> References: <1117713945.8026.11.camel@malatesta> <269c47c05060207552d6f2108@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1117741247.8026.63.camel@malatesta> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 08:55 -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 6/2/05, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > > I just asked Paul Lake for permission to post one of his poems on my Web > > site. This made me wonder whether anyone uses Creative Commons to mark > > the permitted use of their poems? > > > > http://creativecommons.org/ > > > > If not, I highly recommend it. I'm not always as scrupulous as I should > > be in marking my works with the CC "deed", but my usual intent for all > > my writing is attribution, share-alike: > > > > http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/1.0/ > > Aw, Creative Commons is for wimps -- I go with plain old Public > Domain, myself. :-) But then, I never expect to earn a cent from any > of my writings and I have a day gig... > > http://www.saint-andre.com/me/copyright.html Sure, but it's worth pointing out that you can use use CC technology to mark a work as PD (in effect, PD is one of the CC licensing options). This has the advantage of making your work visible to CC-based search engines, which seem to be proliferating impressively. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 2 16:46:11 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:46:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creative commons References: <1117713945.8026.11.camel@malatesta><005a01c56775$ef332c30$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1117728447.8026.52.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <00b201c567b4$1c9072d0$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks for the following info, Uche. --Bob G.. >> Didn't know of it but would approve if permission were not granted for >> commercial use of my work. Commercial users should have to pay the >> creator >> of a work. So I would charge mainstream publishers a fee, but not micro- >> and small press people. > > You can express this using the attribution, non-commercial, share-alike > license: > > http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/ > > There is a very handy wizard which asks you simple questions about your > intended restrictions, and leads you to a suitable license: > > http://creativecommons.org/license/ > > Also see their examples page: > > http://creativecommons.org/learn/licenses/examples > > -- > Uche Ogbuji > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 2 17:00:41 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:00:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back ToThe Library References: <200506020303.j5233jRe027476@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <004f01c56775$25a6f360$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <429F2467.4060506@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <00d201c567b6$23081c10$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> They should have just stated the obvious: all books are harmful. --Bob G. From stpeter at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 17:57:12 2005 From: stpeter at gmail.com (Peter Saint-Andre) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:57:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go Back ToThe Library In-Reply-To: <00d201c567b6$23081c10$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <200506020303.j5233jRe027476@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <004f01c56775$25a6f360$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <429F2467.4060506@ix.netcom.com> <00d201c567b6$23081c10$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <269c47c05060214572dea809c@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > They should have just stated the obvious: all books are harmful. That reminds me of a quote from Yevgeny Zamyatin: "There are books of the same chemical composition as dynamite. The only difference is that a piece of dynamite explodes once, whereas a book explodes a thousand times." --from "A Piece for an Anthology on Books" (1928) Peter From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 2 18:40:56 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:40:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry References: <12a.5e4bd8bc.2fcb05fe@aol.com><029a01c56701$db91f090$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01e401c567c4$24c5c940$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Well, now this brings me to an interesting question - and let me say right > here: THIS IS NOT CONTENTIOUS...trust me - I don't have the strength. > But if each of us had to name, say, the two or three greatest living or > writing poets in ANY language, > > who would they be? I thought we just did this one. Anyway, I would hope no one would consider himself competent to answer such a question. I only read English, so could only list the two or three I thought best in English . . . with whose work I'm familiar. To BE CONTENTIOUS, I would add that there are a lot of wilshberians who would readily tell you which of the mainstreamers they considered tops without any disclaimers. I have one other problem: there are too many poets I consider equally top-ranking, so I'd want to list the twenty or thirty I consider tied for best in English-speaking poetry. But if you want three of the names that'd be on my list, here they are: John M. Bennett, Karl Kempton and Jonathan Brannen. But, gah, there are so many more. A list of those one would not consider best despite their high acclaim might be interesting, too. Everyone knows who would be on mine, though, so I won't bother listing them. (They'd include anyone who has ever had a poem in the Best American Poems of The Year anthology except, maybe, the Hejinian one. Not that many of these poets aren't excellent, but none seem to me up there where Stevens, Frost, Eliot, Pound and Williams were when in their prime.) --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 2 18:51:24 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:51:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am. (With Death.) References: <200505231640.j4NGeXwd005713@mail2.atl.registeredsite.com> Message-ID: <025901c567c5$9b148a40$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hey, Gregory, when are you going to reply to my reply to this post? --Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 12:40 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia,there I am. (With Death.) > 9 > > > The Lessons of Concrete Poetry / Even in Arcadia, there I am. (With > Death.) > > Wow! I'm spinnin'. > > Bob said: > > "It contains texts you have to read in order to appreciate it so has to be > a > form of literature, it seems to me." > > > And Robin said: > > "Well, no, not necessarily Bob -- the same could be said about Et in > Arcadia > Ego in a Renaissance painting, and similar. Magritte's "Ceci nes pas un > pipe" where the words are *crucial*, but the end result is still a > painting, > not a poem. And "purely" visual objects can be constructed from simple > typographical images, words even." > > > About "Et in Arcadia ego," may I suggest the book by Erwin Panofsky, > Meaning in the Visual Arts. Chapter 7. And about "Ceci n'est pas une > pipe," may I suggest Foucault's little book, This Is Not a Pipe. And > certainly I realize many if not most of you are familiar with these. I > mention > them because they have been, and remain, very helpful for me. Especially > the Panofsky. When I wrote that: > > "I believe that we will find that visual poetry is poetry only in an > analogous > sense (only in certain very restricted respects), and that once this is > understood it will be seen that all pictorial art (even > nonrepresentational art) > can then be claimed to be a form of poetry (as it is already claimed to be > a > form of story-telling)." > > When I wrote this I had Panofsky in mind. And that, in my opinion, > certain > works (if not most or all) of vis-po seem to me to be asking to be read as > though they were works of art (pictorial, representational, even non- > representational) and especially as in the sense we fine in the case of > symbolic art (as with symbolist art, symbolist painting) -- but as though > vis- > po has become, or does present, a sort of allegory. This is not exactly > to say > that in the case of vis-po we see a certain death of poetry, only poetry > as in a > sort of "abbreviated" state or condition or incarnation (perhaps it's a > matter > of endowment). Poetry in Arcadia? No,. not here, not in vis-po. > > > In my opinion, I see Bob's eary mathemaku work as very much having its > roots in concrete poetry, even some of the pieces collected in his Doing > Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made > with > scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed "by hand." I have no > problem with concrete poetry that has not been composed entirely on the > typewriter, that is to say that has some elements grafted or pasted into > it. It > was anyone's guess where the mathemaku were going to go, whether they > were going to be strictly an exploration of mathematical poetry (into > "long > division") or whether they were going to remain strictly in the "realm" of > concrete poetry and to obey the grammar of concrete poetry (a grammar that > I see as existing really, and that is different from the grammar of > vis-po, and > that perhaps we ought to discuss as to determine the validity of my view > and > indeed the validity and efficacy of such a grammar). I find -- and this > is not > a cop-out, please, I think it's really there -- that with the mathemaku > work > Bob did not explore and demonstrate the grammar of mathematical poetry > (say, to the degree that anyone could pick up on that grammar and write a > mathematical poem, which would certainly, due to the use of mathematical > symbols, be a sort of concrete poetry -- just picture, if you will, the > "equals > sign," which is made up of two parallel lines of equal length, and which > SHOW you, signal to you a certain outcome is ahead . . . I think here is > an > instance of what would be "the grammar of the concrete," and if I'm at all > correct then it must be said that Bob knew this and understood it and was > working with it), but instead developed the grammar of these early works > away from concrete poetry and into vis-po, into vis-po where his > mathematical symbols, if they function at all, function in an allegorical > sense > -- that is to say their function is not strictly mathematical but . . . > they serve a > sort of symbolical narration, parallel and parable. Following Bob's > mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge > from and out of the concrete into vis-po. The more recent works done in > PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po and, > indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of > digital > art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete, > which to say they've taken on a whole other pedigree). And I have to ask, > just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it > a > letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"? > (Maybe > "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.) > > The works of August Highland. . . . They contain elements of language, > even sentence fragments. . . . > > I have been trying to locate the common denominator in all these works. > > There are considerations as to purpose and procedure. Consider the > procedures of Jukka-Pekka Kervinen. The generation of his text. The > series of procedurals that go into the composition of his works. I don't > feel > comfortable calling them "hybrid" or "multi-task" or "multi-media." The > sum is greater than its parts -- I don't feel comfortable referring to > that sum > as "visual poetry." I wrote of Jukka's works (at the eratio > blog-auxiliary for > Thursday, June 3, 2004) that they were "aper?us," of his composition that > it > was "an aper?u of language-in-eideos, of language in ideal form, of > grammata that is in abstractus." (I am taking into consideration his > procedurals). > > But I think this stands for Highland as well, in that his language is not > . . . > "literal" but symbolic, that his language is "ideal." And I see this as > the case > with Bob's mathemaku, and especially with his more recent PintShop > works. . . . > > The operative phrase (and the common denominator) for me, in these works, > is "language in eidos." Perhaps these works are commenting on, if not > SHOWING, relationality as such. . . . > > > Mairead provides some fine details, and I make no exception to these at > all. > There's a book that I've been recommending every chance I get. It's The > World in Time and Space, published by Talisman House. It's a collection > of > essays and includes a few on media and on digital poetics, "digital media > as > writing." I find this collection very helpful and a good resource, a good > point of orientaion. > > > Mairead says: > > > "Also, much contemporary Visual Poetry is very definitely poetry, or > presenting itself as poetry, or working within the economy of poetry. I'm > thinking of Brian Kim Stefans, John Cayley, and also of a recent visit I > made to the Cave at Brown University to see work by students graduating > from the electronic writing program there. This year's and last year's > Visual > Poetry exhibition at Harvard included work by people known primarily as > poets." > > > Yes, I'm familiar with the exhibitions at Harvard. It was surprising to > see a > work by Nick Piombino in there, who I think of as a poet primarily (the > psychologist notwithstanding) but who I also know to have an excellent eye > and, as it happens, who was kind enough to allow me some pages from his > Free Fall photocollage novel. Have a look: > > > http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/nick_piombino.html > > > > > Nick's work with Greek language immediately struck me, not as a work of > vis-po, but a fine work of art, period. And I immediately thought, > "vis-po is > coming to mean and to include anything!" Indeed, it was surprising to see > Denise Duhamel among the contributors. I did not know she did vis-po. > And -- I may be mistaken -- the piece she had there did not seem to me to > be > vis-po at all. But perhaps I did not see all that she contributed. I was > not > there but saw the exhibition online. > > Now some folks argue that poetry has become diluted by all the "various" > types of poetry being perpetrated today. What if the vis-po folks put > down > their foot and said wait a minute, we have certain standards!? > > I suppose it depends on the curator, on who was selecting the entries. I > would put my money on Scott Helmes or on Geof Huth or on Bob > Grumman or on Karl Young. > > To say that much contemporary visual poetry is very definitely poetry. . . > . I > think it more correct, or safer, to say that much visual poetry is > presenting > itself as poetry and working within the economy of poetry. There's no > doubt about that. But as to whether it is "definitely poetry," well, > that's the > controversy. In what sense is it poetry. In what sense does it > participate in > poetry. What does poetry do, and does the poetry in vis-po do that. . . . > > I say there is a grammar of concrete poetry, and a grammar of vis-po. And > as to whatever elements of poetry are contained in these, they "act" > accordingly. > > > > > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino > > > 9 > > . > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From cc at opus0.com Thu Jun 2 19:06:09 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:06:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: this will never lead to an interesting conversation In-Reply-To: <200506020303.j5233jRe027476@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: I didn't say that Bob (re: burstnorm), Tad did. I was just saying that, in my opinion, such a baited hook wouldn't catch any interesting fish. > Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:26:35 -0400 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: this will never lead to an interesting > conversation > > > > >> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:17:38 -0400 > >> From: "The Old Mole" > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there > >> > >> > Haste is the enemy of poetry< > >> > >> I thought the enemy of poetry was anyone who put time, effort, or > >> money into > >> presenting poetry to the world, but left out burstnorm. > > Close enough, CC. That is, you have what I said approximately 4% > accurate. > What I call AN enemy of poetry is one who significantly blocks the > acceptance of any poetry that uses devices not in wide use for > fifty or more > years. Camille Paglia, for instance, who uses her clout to imply > that the > only poetry around is what's in the New Yorker and the like, and assures > with her books that even more space in the poetry sections of the > bookstores > with space for poetry will be used for any non-traditional verse. > > Note: I would consider myself an enemy of poetry if I wrote an > essay on the > state of American poetry and left out neo-formalist verse, or > Iowa plaintext > poetry, or whatever else is being published in APR and the > like--OR any kind > of poetry being done by more than a few people without admitting, > as anyone > writing such an essay would have to, that I was sure I was inadvertantly > overlooking important kinds of poetry. > > --Bob G. > From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 2 19:09:23 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:09:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: this will never lead to an interestingconversation References: Message-ID: <001401c567c8$1fcd5e40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Yeah, yeah, blame me. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Crisman Cooley" To: Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:06 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: this will never lead to an interestingconversation >I didn't say that Bob (re: burstnorm), Tad did. I was just saying that, in > my opinion, such a baited hook wouldn't catch any interesting fish. > >> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:26:35 -0400 >> From: "Bob Grumman" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: this will never lead to an interesting >> conversation >> >> > >> >> Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:17:38 -0400 >> >> From: "The Old Mole" >> >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Anybody there >> >> >> >> > Haste is the enemy of poetry< >> >> >> >> I thought the enemy of poetry was anyone who put time, effort, or >> >> money into >> >> presenting poetry to the world, but left out burstnorm. >> >> Close enough, CC. That is, you have what I said approximately 4% >> accurate. >> What I call AN enemy of poetry is one who significantly blocks the >> acceptance of any poetry that uses devices not in wide use for >> fifty or more >> years. Camille Paglia, for instance, who uses her clout to imply >> that the >> only poetry around is what's in the New Yorker and the like, and assures >> with her books that even more space in the poetry sections of the >> bookstores >> with space for poetry will be used for any non-traditional verse. >> >> Note: I would consider myself an enemy of poetry if I wrote an >> essay on the >> state of American poetry and left out neo-formalist verse, or >> Iowa plaintext >> poetry, or whatever else is being published in APR and the >> like--OR any kind >> of poetry being done by more than a few people without admitting, >> as anyone >> writing such an essay would have to, that I was sure I was inadvertantly >> overlooking important kinds of poetry. >> >> --Bob G. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 2 20:42:47 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:42:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] slow time References: <269c47c05060121042bd32489@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <029701c567d5$2a600d00$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Yet it is precisely form (meter) > and that sense of something familiar yet different and special that > induces poetic "slow time". Here's a text I call a poem, Peter, than I claim should slow time although it has no meter: (August afternoon)( ) - swans = willow.wwwwwww... It is best as one line but won't show that way on some screens, I imagine. Of course, it has a form--two of them, in fact: the explicit form of an algebraic equation, and the implicit form of a haiku (Its title is "Mathemaku No. 8"). But I don't see form as having much to do with producing a slowing of time. Difficulty is what most does that--heightened language in traditional poetry and/or fresh metaphors and/or artful ambiguities, etc. Yes, "familiar yet different." In my poem, it IS form, because its form is different for poetry though familiar to anyone who had and remembers his algebra. Also the extreme concision of the poem should slow a reader into solving it. On further thought, I see that a form not killed through over-use might slow time if the reader recognizes it and slows down to appreciate it, and lets it extend him into other poems using the same form, and/or into the world that form has brought into existence beyond the many words used in it. Still, what most immediately and fully will slow a poem's reader is whatever is hinderingly fresh in it. I prize poetry most not for slow time, though, but for rich time. But that would not be possible without slow time.... --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 2 21:07:39 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:07:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: this will never lead to an interestingconversation References: Message-ID: <036601c567d8$a3b6a4e0$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I didn't say that Bob (re: burstnorm), Tad did. I was just saying that, in > my opinion, such a baited hook wouldn't catch any interesting fish. Any baited hook will catch me--if that's what you meant. But I'm not reading posts too well at the moment. My main transportation is a bicycle, but the past ten days I've driven close to two thousand miles, including some in Boston and Manhattan and haven't recovered yet. I should have recognized the burstnorm passage as the Mole's. He rarely gets closer than a 4% accurate representation of anything I say. CORRECTION FOLLOWS (not because I think anyone cares, but because the mistake annoys me): >> What I call AN enemy of poetry is one who significantly blocks the >> acceptance of any poetry that uses devices not in wide use for >> fifty or more >> years. Camille Paglia, for instance, who uses her clout to imply >> that the >> only poetry around is what's in the New Yorker and the like, and assures >> with her books that even LESS space in the poetry sections of the >> bookstores >> with space for poetry will be used for any non-traditional verse. >> >> Note: I would consider myself an enemy of poetry if I wrote an >> essay on the >> state of American poetry and left out neo-formalist verse, or >> Iowa plaintext >> poetry, or whatever else is being published in APR and the >> like--OR any kind >> of poetry being done by more than a few people without admitting, >> as anyone >> writing such an essay would have to, that I was sure I was inadvertantly >> overlooking important kinds of poetry. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 2 21:17:48 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:17:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] new? Norton Anthology of Modern andContemporaryPoetry Message-ID: > >Well, now this brings me to an interesting question - and let me say right > >here: THIS IS NOT CONTENTIOUS...trust me - I don't have the strength. > >But if each of us had to name, say, the two or three greatest living or > >writing poets in ANY language, > > > >who would they be? > > I can't answer this question. I go to different poets for different things. I like to read poets whose sensibillity is alien to mine. Some poets have written one or two gems that makes me believe a wide glistening vein is about to be exposed. Old School New York School, New York School, Formalist, New Formalist, Free Formalist. Language, Post-Avant, Plain-Style, Mainstream, Ultra Talk, Feminist, Political, Elliptical, Beat, WannaBeat, Naturalist, Buddhist, etc....None of the Above. Tonight I don't want to choose. Plurally yours, Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 2 21:55:15 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:55:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poetics.ca Message-ID: http://www.poetics.ca/default.html (loads slow) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 2 21:55:28 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:55:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson Message-ID: http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2001/010825.poem.html (listen) Crows Hunch in the trees to gossip about God and his inexorable experimenting, about deer guts and fish so stupid you could sell them air and how out in the deserts there's a dog called coyote with their mind but no wings. Crow with Iroquois hair. Crow with a wisecrack for everybody, Crow with his beak thrust through a bun, the paper still clinging. Then one says something and they all leave, complaining the trees are not what they used to be. Crow with oilslick eyes. Crow with a knife sheathed in a shark's fin. Crow in a midnight blue suit standing in front of a judge: Your Honor, I didn't kill him, just ate him and I wasn't impressed. Crows clustered in the bruise light in the bottoms of dreams. Crows in the red maple. Crows keeping disrespect respectable. Crows teasing a stalking cat, lifting off at the last minute, snow shagging down from their wings. Crows darkening the sky, making fun of the geese on their way to Florida. Crows in the roses, beaks and thorns. Crows feeding lizards to their brood. Crows lifting off road kill, floating back down after the car has passed. Crow with a possum eye speared on its beak. Crow with a French fry. Crows in the chicken cages on their way to market, the farmer finally gone mad. Crows hunkered down rumpling feathers, announcing the cataract of snow over the sun. The crows prosper. Carrion is everywhere. The night that is coming is so dark it will feel like fur on the eyes. So dark suddenly you cannot see the snow. Thrust your hand in it. Hear it like sand blowing on the roof. A crow shifts his foot and snow sifts down from the tree. Doug Anderson Blues for Unemployed Secret Police Curbstone Press ?2000, Doug Anderson Used with permission -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vireo.nefer at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 22:42:38 2005 From: vireo.nefer at gmail.com (Vireo Nefer) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:42:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia Message-ID: <464e468805060219423b46d78b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:09:41 -0500 From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia's bandwagon I'm wondering, also, in the most non-judgmental manner possible, is there anyone on this list who has actually made it through Paglia's book, or are we all (myself included) going by reviews and quoted snippets? **i've read Sexual Personae, the whole damn thing; read it whilst yelling, "define your terms!" and "are you sure you're a dyke, lady?" and wondering how anyone could not be insulted by the statement that women haven't had a "genius" composer, because there are no female Jack-the-Rippers. i beg to differ on this, as the female is no stranger to psychosis and sadism, but i still find her insistence that anti-life _behavior_ equals art and culture ridiculous. But that's just me. Vireo -- AIM: vireonefer LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=vireoibis VireoNyx Publications: http://www.vireonyxpub.org INK: http://www.inkemetic.org From stpeter at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 23:02:42 2005 From: stpeter at gmail.com (Peter Saint-Andre) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:02:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia In-Reply-To: <464e468805060219423b46d78b@mail.gmail.com> References: <464e468805060219423b46d78b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <269c47c050602200262c4e35e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/05, Vireo Nefer wrote: > I'm wondering, also, in the most non-judgmental manner possible, is there > anyone on this list who has actually made it through Paglia's book, or are > we all (myself included) going by reviews and quoted snippets? If by "Paglia's book" you mean Break, Blow, Burn, then yes I have made it through her book. I've read Sexual Personae, too, but that was ages ago. Peter From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Thu Jun 2 23:19:51 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:19:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Douggie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117768791.429fcc5723378@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> This boy can surely sing the blues. Thanks Jim. Quoting JforJames at aol.com: > http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2001/010825.poem.html > (listen) > > Crows > > Hunch in the trees > to gossip > about God and his inexorable > experimenting, > about deer guts and fish so stupid > you could sell them air > and how out in the deserts > there's a dog called coyote > with their mind > but no wings. > Crow with Iroquois hair. > Crow with a wisecrack > for everybody, > Crow with his beak > thrust through a bun, > the paper still clinging. > Then one says something > and they all leave, > complaining > the trees are not > what they used to be. > Crow with oilslick eyes. > Crow with a knife > sheathed in a shark's fin. > Crow > in a midnight blue suit > standing in front of a judge: > Your Honor, I didn't > kill him, > just ate him > and I wasn't impressed. > Crows > clustered in the bruise light > in the bottoms > of dreams. > Crows in the red maple. > Crows keeping disrespect > respectable. > Crows teasing a stalking cat, > lifting off at the last minute, > snow shagging down > from their wings. > Crows darkening the sky, > making fun of the geese > on their way to Florida. > Crows in the roses, > beaks and thorns. > Crows feeding lizards > to their brood. > Crows lifting off road kill, > floating back down > after the car has passed. > Crow with a possum eye > speared on its beak. > Crow with a French fry. > Crows > in the chicken cages > on their way to market, > the farmer finally gone mad. > Crows hunkered down > rumpling feathers, > announcing the cataract > of snow > over the sun. > The crows prosper. > Carrion is everywhere. > The night > that is coming > is so dark > it will feel > > like fur on the eyes. > So dark suddenly > you cannot see the snow. > Thrust your hand in it. > Hear it like sand > blowing on the roof. > A crow shifts his foot > and snow sifts > down from the tree. > > Doug Anderson > Blues for Unemployed Secret Police > Curbstone Press > ?2000, Doug Anderson > Used with permission > From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Jun 2 23:21:49 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 04:21:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In-Reply-To: <1e1.3db44989.2fd06141@aol.com> Message-ID: Now that will be an omlette. _____ From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com Sent: 02 June 2005 14:19 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Greetings In a message dated 6/2/2005 8:47:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: I do usually avoid quiche, though. I both make and eat quiche. Anybody wanna make anything of it? I've even been known to eat 'crustless quiche'...o the shame. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 08:46:15 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:46:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a05060305463172dfff@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for this, Jim. I'll be searching for this book, soon. Jeff Newberry On 6/2/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2001/010825.poem.html > (listen) > > Crows > > Hunch in the trees > to gossip > about God and his inexorable > experimenting, > about deer guts and fish so stupid > you could sell them air > and how out in the deserts > there's a dog called coyote > with their mind > but no wings. > Crow with Iroquois hair. > Crow with a wisecrack > for everybody, > Crow with his beak > thrust through a bun, > the paper still clinging. > Then one says something > and they all leave, > complaining > the trees are not > what they used to be. > Crow with oilslick eyes. > Crow with a knife > sheathed in a shark's fin. > Crow > in a midnight blue suit > standing in front of a judge: > Your Honor, I didn't > kill him, > just ate him > and I wasn't impressed. > Crows > clustered in the bruise light > in the bottoms > of dreams. > Crows in the red maple. > Crows keeping disrespect > respectable. > Crows teasing a stalking cat, > lifting off at the last minute, > snow shagging down > from their wings. > Crows darkening the sky, > making fun of the geese > on their way to Florida. > Crows in the roses, > beaks and thorns. > Crows feeding lizards > to their brood. > Crows lifting off road kill, > floating back down > after the car has passed. > Crow with a possum eye > speared on its beak. > Crow with a French fry. > Crows > in the chicken cages > on their way to market, > the farmer finally gone mad. > Crows hunkered down > rumpling feathers, > announcing the cataract > of snow > over the sun. > The crows prosper. > Carrion is everywhere. > The night > that is coming > is so dark > it will feel > like fur on the eyes. > So dark suddenly > you cannot see the snow. > Thrust your hand in it. > Hear it like sand > blowing on the roof. > A crow shifts his foot > and snow sifts > down from the tree. > > Doug Anderson > Blues for Unemployed Secret Police > Curbstone Press > (c)2000, Doug Anderson > Used with permission > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jun 3 09:15:32 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:15:32 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia Message-ID: <008901c5683e$52889130$1da93252@ANNY> I don't know her, I am asking: how is it that every/any/body knows her and every/any/body despises her? And yet she seems successful? This makes her very interesting to my eyes. There was an interesting answer on another list, something to do with a calculated business, plenty of knowledge of mass reactions - if it is true I might not like her. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 3 09:41:16 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:41:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Roo Borson & Chas. Simic win Griffins Message-ID: <1fe.2e5245b.2fd1b7fc@aol.com> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/cpress/20050603/ca_pr_on_en/books_gri ffin_prize_2 Roo Borson wins Griffin Poetry Prize for Short Journey Upriver Toward Oishida ANNE-MARIE TOBIN Thu Jun 2,11:41 PM ET TORONTO (CP) - Roo Borson has won the $50,000 Griffin Poetry Prize awarded to a Canadian, while Charles Simic of New Hampshire collected an equivalent amount for the international portion of the prestigious award Thursday night. Cheques were handed out at a dinner bash in the historic distillery district attended by hundreds of guests, including Gov. Gen. Adrienne Clarkson, founder Scott Griffin and writer Margaret Atwood. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 3 09:48:26 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:48:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson Message-ID: In a message dated 6/3/2005 8:47:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes: I'll be searching for this book, soon. Jeff Newberry On 6/2/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2001/010825.poem.html (listen) Crows Jeff, the book is out from Connecticut's own Curbstone Press.... http://www.curbstone.org/bookdetail.cfm?BookID=96 Those are best anthropomorphized crows since Ted Hughes' collection _Crow_. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Jun 3 10:06:55 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:06:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia References: <008901c5683e$52889130$1da93252@ANNY> Message-ID: <003901c56845$825de1b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Anny the same can be said about George W. Bush. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:15 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia I don't know her, I am asking: how is it that every/any/body knows her and every/any/body despises her? And yet she seems successful? This makes her very interesting to my eyes. There was an interesting answer on another list, something to do with a calculated business, plenty of knowledge of mass reactions - if it is true I might not like her. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Jun 3 10:31:51 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:31:51 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia Message-ID: <3040089.1117809111555.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> What wonder is, how, finally, does the Paglia "controversy" matter to one's writing? Bet it's around zero. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Jun 3, 2005 6:15 AM To: New Poetry Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia I don't know her, I am asking: how is it that every/any/body knows her and every/any/body despises her? And yet she seems successful? This makes her very interesting to my eyes. There was an interesting answer on another list, something to do with a calculated business, plenty of knowledge of mass reactions - if it is true I might not like her. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Fri Jun 3 10:34:53 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:34:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry Message-ID: <200506031435.j53EZ6Lq008955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com> 9 "Hey, Gregory, when are you going to reply to my reply to this post? --Bob" Hello Bob Grumman. I've been lurking. I do indeed plan to reply to your post. I've been thinking about it and articulating my reply over the past two weeks. But I don't think I can get to it today. This morning, well, I have to pretty myself up then go into the city to make some stops and then I'm going to the Book Expo 2005 at Jacob Javits Convention Center. (Why am I going to the Book Expo? Because I need a fresh supply of pens and pencils.) By the way, I like your "Mathemaku No. 8." And while I'm on the subject, I also like Robin Hamilton's "THE SEMIOLOGICAL INVESTIGATIONS OF THE (ELECTRONIC) MOUSE IN THE WAINSCOTING." Indeed, I think all the poems posted to this list are generally excellent. Wow! There are some serious poets on this list! And a few months ago I read an essay by Paul Lake at CPR that was quite edifying. Paglia, Paglia, Paglia. For all her shock value she remains a cultural conservative -- and it's a simple formula: All her frisson derives from transgression. (Remove the transgressive note and the thrill is gone. I think this is brought home again and again in Sexual Personae. And this is what makes her useless to the liberals.) I've read all her books and I want to read her latest one -- in fact I hope to get a copy today, and for free. She has make some remarks that I find seriously toxic, like the one about Ginsberg and NAMBLA. But she's into shock, that's her stock and trade. Yes, even Paglia goes overboard, and it's embarrassing. . . . But I do think Sexual Personae is a good (fun and interesting) book. And I have nothing against "cultural conservatives" (-- please, leave me alone. . . ). I will get to my reply real soon, Bob. Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino 9 From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 10:48:32 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:48:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry References: <200506031435.j53EZ6Lq008955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com> Message-ID: <009f01c5684b$52a6dbb0$4e169c51@Robin> > Robin Hamilton's "THE > SEMIOLOGICAL INVESTIGATIONS OF THE (ELECTRONIC) > MOUSE IN THE WAINSCOTING." I promised to backchannel you the concrete poems from the Notebook -- haven't forgotten, Gregory, but ... problems. :-( Robin From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Jun 3 10:55:51 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:55:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia In-Reply-To: <3040089.1117809111555.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <3040089.1117809111555.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3a5dab00450aef086f02acc72d3b65ef@earthlink.net> On Jun 3, 2005, at 10:31 AM, James Cervantes wrote: > What wonder is, how, finally, does the Paglia "controversy" matter to > one's writing? Bet it's around zero. > > - Jim The "controversy" matters (to me) not a whit. But there's enough energy in her writing to set my work aspinning (and that's what I read for, mainly). Other prime energy sources: Stevens, Ashbery, Joyce, Ives, Cage, Stein, et al. Actual Product May Vary from Photos Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jun 3 10:56:41 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:56:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crows, Doug Anderson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 6/3/05 8:48 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: Jeff, the book is out from Connecticut's own Curbstone Press.... http://www.curbstone.org/bookdetail.cfm?BookID=96 Those are best anthropomorphized crows since Ted Hughes' collection _Crow_. Finnegan ========================= One could probably put together a little anthology of contemporary crow poems--a popular theme. I myself am guilty of committing one, which appeared a while back in Jim Cervantes's *Salt River Review*: http://www.poetserv.org/SRR7/graham_1.html I do like Anderson's crows a lot. In her new book, Lucia Perillo has a poem from the crows' perspective, complaining a bit about all these crow poems--which I confess did give me pause. The Crows Start Demanding Royalties Of all the birds, they are the ones who mind their being armless most: witness how, when they walk, their heads jerk back and forth like rifle bolts. How they heave their shoulders into each stride as if they hoped that by some chance new bones there would come popping out with a boxing glove on the end of each. Little Elvises, the hairdo slicked with too much grease: they convene on my lawn to strategize for their class-action suit. Flight they would trade in a New York minute for a black muscle car and a fist on the shift at any stale green light. But here in my yard by the Jack in the Box dumpster they can only fossick in the grass for remnants of the world's stale buns. And this despite all the crow-poems that have been written because men like to see themselves as crows (the head-jerk performed in the rear-view mirror, the dark brow commanding the rainy weather.) So I think I know how they must feel: ripped-off, shook down, taken to the cleaners. What they'd like to do now is smash a phone against a wall. But they can't, so each one flies to a bare branch and screams. Lucia Perillo. *Luck is Luck*. Random House, 2005. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 3 11:01:54 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:01:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia References: <008901c5683e$52889130$1da93252@ANNY> Message-ID: <006d01c5684d$a28b8430$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Actually, I go along with much of what Paglia says (which is mostly standard common sense that males in our time are prevented from revealing in public such as the fact that men and women are different from one another) and rather like her as a personality. But I resent her current philistinism, which I perceive as blocking me and my kind from Proper Recognition. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:15 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia I don't know her, I am asking: how is it that every/any/body knows her and every/any/body despises her? And yet she seems successful? This makes her very interesting to my eyes. There was an interesting answer on another list, something to do with a calculated business, plenty of knowledge of mass reactions - if it is true I might not like her. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 3 11:03:30 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:03:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson References: Message-ID: <006e01c5684d$a2d2ed70$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Nice Hughes Lite. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2001/010825.poem.html (listen) Crows Hunch in the trees to gossip about God and his inexorable experimenting, about deer guts and fish so stupid you could sell them air and how out in the deserts there's a dog called coyote with their mind but no wings. Crow with Iroquois hair. Crow with a wisecrack for everybody, Crow with his beak thrust through a bun, the paper still clinging. Then one says something and they all leave, complaining the trees are not what they used to be. Crow with oilslick eyes. Crow with a knife sheathed in a shark's fin. Crow in a midnight blue suit standing in front of a judge: Your Honor, I didn't kill him, just ate him and I wasn't impressed. Crows clustered in the bruise light in the bottoms of dreams. Crows in the red maple. Crows keeping disrespect respectable. Crows teasing a stalking cat, lifting off at the last minute, snow shagging down from their wings. Crows darkening the sky, making fun of the geese on their way to Florida. Crows in the roses, beaks and thorns. Crows feeding lizards to their brood. Crows lifting off road kill, floating back down after the car has passed. Crow with a possum eye speared on its beak. Crow with a French fry. Crows in the chicken cages on their way to market, the farmer finally gone mad. Crows hunkered down rumpling feathers, announcing the cataract of snow over the sun. The crows prosper. Carrion is everywhere. The night that is coming is so dark it will feel like fur on the eyes. So dark suddenly you cannot see the snow. Thrust your hand in it. Hear it like sand blowing on the roof. A crow shifts his foot and snow sifts down from the tree. Doug Anderson Blues for Unemployed Secret Police Curbstone Press ?2000, Doug Anderson Used with permission ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 3 11:07:41 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:07:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry References: <200506031435.j53EZ6Lq008955@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com> Message-ID: <007701c5684d$fd868830$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I will get to my reply real soon, Bob. > > > > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino No hurry, Gregory. Just wanted to make sure you dint forget me! Thanks for commenting on my mathemaku. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 3 11:11:25 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:11:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson References: <006e01c5684d$a2d2ed70$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> "Nice Hughes Lite." I should have added that I've done my share of Hughes Lite, or tried to, so approve of it. It's also Stevens Lite, Stevens having, in my view, provided Hughes with his source-crow. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 11:31:12 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:31:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson In-Reply-To: <009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <006e01c5684d$a2d2ed70$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <731bb17a050603083176de8d85@mail.gmail.com> Yeah, that's it. Exactly. Jeff Newberry On 6/3/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > > "Nice Hughes Lite." > I should have added that I've done my share of Hughes Lite, or tried to, > so approve of it. It's also Stevens Lite, Stevens having, in my view, > provided Hughes with his source-crow. > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Fri Jun 3 11:42:41 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:42:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia In-Reply-To: <269c47c050602200262c4e35e@mail.gmail.com> References: <464e468805060219423b46d78b@mail.gmail.com> <269c47c050602200262c4e35e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1117813361.8026.72.camel@malatesta> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 21:02 -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 6/2/05, Vireo Nefer wrote: > > > I'm wondering, also, in the most non-judgmental manner possible, is there > > anyone on this list who has actually made it through Paglia's book, or are > > we all (myself included) going by reviews and quoted snippets? > > If by "Paglia's book" you mean Break, Blow, Burn, then yes I have made > it through her book. What did you think? Is it worth the time on a limited temporal budget for reading? > I've read Sexual Personae, too, but that was ages > ago. Never mind that one ;-) -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 11:47:11 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:47:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson References: <006e01c5684d$a2d2ed70$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a050603083176de8d85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010301c56853$82f02e40$4e169c51@Robin> From: Jeff Newberry << Yeah, that's it. Exactly. Jeff Newberry >> 13 blackbirds? Hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense. (There was a pretty negative response to Hughes' +Crow+ when it first came out in the UK lo those many years ago. I liked the collection, but I nearly lost friends for saying so.) Robin On 6/3/05, Bob Grumman wrote: "Nice Hughes Lite." I should have added that I've done my share of Hughes Lite, or tried to, so approve of it. It's also Stevens Lite, Stevens having, in my view, provided Hughes with his source-crow. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 12:17:38 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:17:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul the Usher References: <006e01c5684d$a2d2ed70$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a050603083176de8d85@mail.gmail.com> <010301c56853$82f02e40$4e169c51@Robin> Message-ID: <012c01c56857$c38601b0$4e169c51@Robin> BACKGROUND: Paulus Silentiarius (Paul the Usher) -- 3rd C AD Byzantine civil servant, 80 poems in The Greek Anthology. (45 down, 35 to go, me.) He's, as far as I can make out, not that good a poet, which makes a change after working on Anacreon. "Sweet Thing" (taken from Nina Simone's song, "Four Women") is the name I've chosen to signify the central addressee of Paul's poems. PROVISO: These aren't quite finished -- as I'll have to rework the entire set when (if) I reach the end, I'm putting-off final revisions till then. Law of Diminishing Returns. That's not to prevent anyone putting the boot in, but why I may daff some comments aside for the moment. R. * * * * * GREEK ANTHOLOGY V, 264 (Loeb 1, p. 265) -- 30/5/05 Sod that bald patch fringed with grey, & leaky eyes -- I'm 25 inside. I blame you, my wrack of love -- scabs on the scars your kitten-claws carved. I'm gutted with insomnia, double- chinned before my time. Your fault. The more I love you, the faster I exhaust my final store of years. But change your pretty mind, say "Yes," and in a moment I'll be tall smart and handsome & 25 once more. GREEK ANTHOLOGY V, 268 (Loeb 1, p. 267) -- 2/6/05 Nothing to fear now, since Love has emptied his magazine: every bullet splitting my heart. No more terror of his wings since I've been buffeted and his talons sunk in me. Gun and wings and claws -- I'm tangled in Love's briars. GREEK ANTHOLOGY V, 270 (Loeb 1, p. 269) -- 2/6/05 No paint for the rose, nor need of any dress for you, Sweet Thing, or a pricey tiara on your head. Whiter than pearl, your skin, and your hair outburnishing gold. Rose-brown jacinth gems shine, but less than your eyes. Damp lips and trim breasts are your zone of love. All these defeat me, but Your caught gaze leads straight down to your heart. -- ROBIN HAMILTON From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 3 12:18:09 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:18:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson References: <006e01c5684d$a2d2ed70$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a050603083176de8d85@mail.gmail.com> <010301c56853$82f02e40$4e169c51@Robin> Message-ID: <00e601c56857$d5af3500$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > From: Jeff Newberry > > << > Yeah, that's it. Exactly. > > Jeff Newberry >>> > > 13 blackbirds? Hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense. > > (There was a pretty negative response to Hughes' +Crow+ when it first came > out in the UK lo those many years ago. I liked the collection, but I > nearly > lost friends for saying so.) > > Robin I was thinking more of "No Possum, No Sop, No Taters." --Bob G. From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Fri Jun 3 12:41:12 2005 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:41:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crow Poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050603113508.01af17f0@mail.ilstu.edu> >despite all the crow-poems that have been written >because men like to see themselves as crows OK, here's one of mine (from Sky With Six Geese, Pudding House, 2005): The Nature Channel: North School Street A fleshy smack cut through the traffic noise; the squirrel twitched and rolled onto its back, convulsed, then let the lungs and limbs go slack; a spot of nasal blood to ironize its poise, it lay there limp, like one of the furry toys that children drop. But the crow is on it, black and quick, taking the eyes in a hammering attack, then digging out the testicles; the joys of conquest grip him?-whole body sounding out the find to others of his sooty kind, who float in and peck and quarrel where he?s just dined. All day in ones and twos they hang about to snack on brains and muscle, leaving the hair and bones to blend with asphalt, rain, and air. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jun 3 12:41:40 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:41:40 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson References: Message-ID: <004201c5685b$1e793620$33aa3852@ANNY> These two are also very good, they are on the page of James' link: Turning Fifty This morning I swam out into the cold where the depths began, turned back toward the young people on the beach, shouting, beautiful out here, then felt the wind in my face carrying my voice out over the water like a lost scarf. * * * * * * * * Answering Adorno To write poetry after Auschwitz is barbaric. --Theodore Adorno Since you doomed poetry nothing has changed. People are the same, maybe worse. In Bosnia they have raped by battalions, nailed children to doors, rubbled fine old Europe block by block, and the new evil pours into the deep cup with the evil I have already seen, overflowing. Convention demands that I mortify something. My flesh. My heart. Any joy I might have on this April day with forsythia suddenly everywhere and the willows aching green gold. Adorno, your words are like snow lingering where shade and wind hold out against the sun. Doug Anderson ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson In a message dated 6/3/2005 8:47:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes: I'll be searching for this book, soon. Jeff Newberry On 6/2/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2001/010825.poem.html (listen) Crows Jeff, the book is out from Connecticut's own Curbstone Press.... http://www.curbstone.org/bookdetail.cfm?BookID=96 Those are best anthropomorphized crows since Ted Hughes' collection _Crow_. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 3 12:48:24 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:48:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <010301c56853$82f02e40$4e169c51@Robin> References: <006e01c5684d$a2d2ed70$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a050603083176de8d85@mail.gmail.com> <010301c56853$82f02e40$4e169c51@Robin> Message-ID: <42A089D8.50208@ix.netcom.com> **10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries ** ** THE EDITORS The Assassinated Press May, 29, 2005 ** **Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries ** **1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** **2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - John von Neumann & Oskar Morgenstern ** **3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** **4) Mein Kamp - Adolf Hitler ** **5)Diplomacy - Henry Kissinger ** **6)Eugenics and Race - William Shockley ** **7)A Study Of Communism - J. Edgar Hoover ** **8)Capitalism and Freedom - Milton Friedman ** **9)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow Taylor ** **10)The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl Popper ** **and more... ** **11)The Road to Serfdom - Friedrich von Hayek, ** **12)Fountainhead - Ayn Rand ** **13)The Problem of The West - Frederick Jackson Turner ** **14)The Turner Diaries - Andrew MacDonald (William Pierce) ** **15)The Philippines Past and Present - Dean Worcester ** **16)Open Society and Its Enemies - Karl Popper ** **17)Ending the Vietnam War : A History of America's Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam War - Henry Kissinger ** **18)Extermination of the Pequods - George Bancroft ** **19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The Bell Curve ** **20)The Poems of Rudyard Kipling ** **21)Human Action - Ludwig von Mises ** **22)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow Taylor ** **23)Society of Mind - Marvin Minsky ** **24)The Poems of Alfred Tennyson ** **25)Introduction to Operations Research - C. West Churchman et al ** **26)Goedel, Escher, Bach - Douglas Hofstadter ** **27)The Anthropic Cosmological Principle - John Barrow & Frank Tipler ** **28)Countercoup: The Struggle for the Control of Iran - Kermit Roosevelt ** **29The Yemassee - William Gilmore Simms ** **30)Rapture Series - Tim LaHaye ** **31)The Physics of Immortality - Frank Tipler ** **32)Consciousness Explained - Daniel Dennett ** **33)Poems of William Wadsworth Longfellow ** **34)End of Racism - Gunga Dinesh D'Souza ** **35)Courtier To The Crowd: The Life Story Of Ivy Lee - Ray Eldon Hiebert ** **36)Sexual Personae - Camille Paglia ** **37)Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand ** **38)Higher Superstition - Norman Levitt & Paul R. Gross ** **39)None Dare Call It Treason - John Stormer ** **with special honors to Reader's Digest, TV Guide and the Regnery Press ** ** ** > > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 13:01:42 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:01:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries References: <006e01c5684d$a2d2ed70$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a050603083176de8d85@mail.gmail.com><010301c56853$82f02e40$4e169c51@Robin> <42A089D8.50208@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <016501c5685d$ec051350$4e169c51@Robin> > **3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** How did Cordwainer Smith creep in here, and so high on the list, Carlo? I only know his SF work, so mibee I'm missing something? A Baffled Dormouse from Britain From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 3 13:29:12 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:29:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries Message-ID: <144.469345de.2fd1ed68@aol.com> In a message dated 6/3/2005 12:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: **10)The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl Popper Popper has always struck as both sane and humane. No wonder the world is backsliding to 'intelligent design'; a term that an ironic cast for me, given the general state of earthly affairs. If this this was an intelligent design I hope God has paid for product's liablity insurance, because class-action lawsuits are bound to arise. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Fri Jun 3 13:46:28 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:46:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Crows, Doug Anderson In-Reply-To: <009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <006e01c5684d$a2d2ed70$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1117820788.42a097741b18f@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> I'm wondering how attorney stevens would have done throwing the attendant body parts along with the corpse into the bag...would he have had, um, what it takes to come home and write poems that end up affirming... Quoting Bob Grumman : > "Nice Hughes Lite." > > I should have added that I've done my share of Hughes Lite, or tried to, so > approve of it. It's also Stevens Lite, Stevens having, in my view, provided > Hughes with his source-crow. > > --Bob G. > > From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 13:56:35 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:56:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan Strikes Again Message-ID: <731bb17a0506031056e4f2f8a@mail.gmail.com> http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/23/jun05/pochron.htm Look out. The Most Hated Man in American Poetry has a new batch of reviews guaranteed to anger most and delight a few. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 3 13:58:27 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:58:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <016501c5685d$ec051350$4e169c51@Robin> References: <006e01c5684d$a2d2ed70$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009501c5684e$82fbe050$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a050603083176de8d85@mail.gmail.com><010301c56853$82f02e40$4e169c51@Robin> <42A089D8.50208@ix.netcom.com> <016501c5685d$ec051350$4e169c51@Robin> Message-ID: <42A09A43.6060107@ix.netcom.com> Indeed. He is the father of Psychological Warfare (that's the name of his major work) devising various modes of inflicting mental pain and anguish to elicit information. His techniques are still in use and were much prized during Vietnam. He's part of the big three in American torture and disinformation along with Dan Mitrione and Ed Lansdale. There has ben talk that he and Lansdale were somehow responsible for the jeep accident death of Bernard Fall in 1959(sic?). Fall was against the U.S. engaging in a a land war in South-east Asia. Linebarger and Lansdale with the success of the Brit Thompson in Malaysia were ready for slaughter using techniques like free fire zones, strategic hamlets, and playing on peasant superstitions to gain information. He most oftern posed as a State Department employee, but now its pretty well accepted that he worked for one or more of the intelligence services. He owned a green baby grand that he often polluted with his 'interpretations' of Brahms. He, lived as many of these ghouls do, a block off Connecticut Ave. here in DC. I bought part of his library (the politcal histories and some travel) when he mercifully died about 20 yars ago. FIZZ Robin Hamilton wrote: >>**3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** >> >> > >How did Cordwainer Smith creep in here, and so high on the list, Carlo? > >I only know his SF work, so mibee I'm missing something? > > > >A Baffled Dormouse from Britain > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 3 14:16:08 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:16:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries Message-ID: <193.412336cb.2fd1f868@aol.com> In a message dated 6/3/2005 12:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: **19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The Bell Curve ** I wrote a poem in response to this book...I'll email a copy to anyone who cares to see...it needs to come as an .rtf attachment, since it's carmen figuratum and email formatting would make chaos of the design. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 3 14:27:40 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:27:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <193.412336cb.2fd1f868@aol.com> References: <193.412336cb.2fd1f868@aol.com> Message-ID: <42A0A11C.6010707@ix.netcom.com> Send it to the whole list. fizz JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/3/2005 12:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: > > **19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The Bell Curve ** > > I wrote a poem in response to this book...I'll email a copy to > anyone who cares to see...it needs to come as an .rtf attachment, > since it's carmen figuratum and email formatting would make > chaos of the design. > Finnegan > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 3 14:38:10 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:38:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries Message-ID: Here goes, but I'm not sure this going work... The Bell Curve isn?t Olympus, it is not Golgotha, it's no mountain at all. It exists on paper, the mapping of a data set, a distribution with a mean, or, shall we say, mean streak. People live under its accursed sky, under the hard rain of numbers and raw statistics. This shape like the heavy belly of an unwed mother, it is a downturned mouth, the grimace of a boy being struck with the back of a hand. Always there are those who would use this curve as a sickle to divide us, cutting a wide swath through society, who would say that the gulf between us is too great and can not be crossed. But we will overturn their bell curve and make it our boat, the new ark. All aboard!, the different, the odd, the many colors of skin, with our common and exotic names, a Babel of tongues, hetero or queer, the impaired and the brilliant, all of the loved and those lonely or bereft, the unbelievers, the hardfallen, sane or ranting. A ship of fools, they may say, but wherever we're headed, perhaps back to the same shore we left from on this lopsided planet, we know it will be green and gregarious, and it will be good, a world worth living in. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Jun 3 14:38:59 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:38:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries References: <193.412336cb.2fd1f868@aol.com> Message-ID: <008401c5686b$86442750$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Jim...me. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In a message dated 6/3/2005 12:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: **19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The Bell Curve ** I wrote a poem in response to this book...I'll email a copy to anyone who cares to see...it needs to come as an .rtf attachment, since it's carmen figuratum and email formatting would make chaos of the design. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Jun 3 14:39:51 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:39:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan Strikes Again References: <731bb17a0506031056e4f2f8a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009301c5686b$a3c87560$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Reading Winters has made me realize what an amateur Logan is. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:56 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan Strikes Again http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/23/jun05/pochron.htm Look out. The Most Hated Man in American Poetry has a new batch of reviews guaranteed to anger most and delight a few. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 3 14:45:43 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:45:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A0A11C.6010707@ix.netcom.com> References: <193.412336cb.2fd1f868@aol.com> <42A0A11C.6010707@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <42A0A557.1060703@ix.netcom.com> Also. Just for the record I've written a poem engaging most of these texts. Its called Deconstructing the Demiurge: Tale of the Tribe and can be read on FlashPoint. FIZZ Alphaville wrote: > Send it to the whole list. fizz > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 6/3/2005 12:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >> alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: >> >> **19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The Bell Curve ** >> >> I wrote a poem in response to this book...I'll email a copy to >> anyone who cares to see...it needs to come as an .rtf attachment, >> since it's carmen figuratum and email formatting would make >> chaos of the design. >> Finnegan >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jun 3 14:59:04 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:59:04 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries References: Message-ID: <012201c5686e$507037b0$33aa3852@ANNY> Hey dis is_s a pOm! ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries Here goes, but I'm not sure this going work... The Bell Curve isn?t Olympus, it is not Golgotha, it's no mountain at all. It exists on paper, the mapping of a data set, a distribution with a mean, or, shall we say, mean streak. People live under its accursed sky, under the hard rain of numbers and raw statistics. This shape like the heavy belly of an unwed mother, it is a downturned mouth, the grimace of a boy being struck with the back of a hand. Always there are those who would use this curve as a sickle to divide us, cutting a wide swath through society, who would say that the gulf between us is too great and can not be crossed. But we will overturn their bell curve and make it our boat, the new ark. All aboard!, the different, the odd, the many colors of skin, with our common and exotic names, a Babel of tongues, hetero or queer, the impaired and the brilliant, all of the loved and those lonely or bereft, the unbelievers, the hardfallen, sane or ranting. A ship of fools, they may say, but wherever we're headed, perhaps back to the same shore we left from on this lopsided planet, we know it will be green and gregarious, and it will be good, a world worth living in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 3 15:10:25 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:10:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A0AB21.80408@ix.netcom.com> Well, you certainly captured the pessimistic intention of the book to further demoralize a race by the 'objectivity' & implied veracity of mathematization through statistics. I would have stressed the overwhelming institutional and economic power behind promoting such a line, but that's just me. I could never venture the optimism of the second part because I think there are forces that intend at all cost to "say that the gulf between us is too great and can not be crossed" and a dispassionate look at their assets tells me this is true. But I will say, I live in Prince Georges County Maryland just over the DC line. We have by far the highest crime rate and murder rate in the area until you get to Charm City---Baltimore. But given the majority occurences of daily life it a is an extraordinarily pleasant place to live. On the other hand, when I had a bookstore it was on Connecticut Ave, upper Northwest, where the countries career murderers abound---I mean the mass killers, people who have participated in the slaughter of millions world wide in the name of ('shrug') real Politique, especially people of color and practice a foreign policy that forced millions more to flee to neighborhoods like mine. Any body who worked in their neighborhood was just their kafir---grocery clerk, liquor salesman, bookseller. You were made to feel completely alien and subservient. So J. Your ark can't sail with them and oddly isn't the ark without them. FIZZ JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Here goes, but I'm not sure this going work... > > > > The Bell Curve > > > > > > isn?t Olympus, > > it is not Golgotha, it's > > no mountain at all. It exists > > on paper, the mapping of a data set, > > a distribution with a mean, or, shall we say, > > mean streak. People live under its accursed sky, > > under the hard rain of numbers and raw statistics. > > This shape like the heavy belly of an unwed mother, it is a > > downturned mouth, the grimace of a boy being struck with the > > back of a hand. Always there are those who would use this curve as > > a sickle to divide us, cutting a wide swath through society, who would > > > > say that the gulf between us is too great and can not be crossed. > > > > But we will overturn their bell curve and make it our boat, the new ark. > > All aboard!, the different, the odd, the many colors of skin, with our > > common and exotic names, a Babel of tongues, hetero or queer, > > the impaired and the brilliant, all of the loved and those lonely > > or bereft, the unbelievers, the hardfallen, sane or ranting. > > A ship of fools, they may say, but wherever we're > > headed, perhaps back to the same shore we left > > from on this lopsided planet, we know it > > will be green and gregarious, and > > it will be good, a world > > worth living in. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From elemenope at icubed.com Fri Jun 3 03:34:32 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:34:32 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia, Grumman, Ballardini In-Reply-To: <200506031600.j53G05Re003316@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200506031600.j53G05Re003316@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Whenever the ideas and arguments of a writer/pundit etc. can't be engaged or outwitted, those who advance such notions like "men and women are NOT different from one another and therefore any education that has evolved out of male culture is appropriate and necessary for women, but the opposite is NOT the case, for obvious reasons" will perforce attack ad hominem. The PC Utopians will go after the person and reputation of someone like Camille Paglia instead of dealing with her cogent insights and scholarship. They won't "like" her like the way they don't "like" "corporations" or private SS retirement accounts. Notice that Bob Grumman disagrees ONLY with Professor Paglia's overall approach to poetry in our time, a kind of journalistic scholarship and advocacy that probably is unaware of Poesie Concret and related genres. I am certain, however, that if Professor Paglia read Professor Huisman's book, "The Written Poem," she would respond constructively. If she were presented, say, the Saroyan "Crickets" poem (published first in the old Swiss based, "Art and Literature" back in the antient '60s), she'd laugh with it. People who actually know what they are talking about (in any field of inquiry) don't generally try to impose a political ax to grind (to mix metaphors) like what happened to the Harvard President in the vain and belligerant view that speculative thinking, inquiry and art must be subordinated by some current pseudo intellectual version of StalinisticalLysenkonianIsm. So, Anny, the author of, "Sexual Personae," is someone I believe you would respect and take seriously. Indeed, Paglis, I'd bet, might even champion you. R i c h a r d D i l l o n > >------------------------------ > >Message: 15 >Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:01:54 -0400 >From: "Bob Grumman" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paglia >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <006d01c5684d$a28b8430$23b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Actually, I go along with much of what Paglia says (which is mostly >standard common sense that males in our time are prevented from >revealing in public such as the fact that men and women are >different from one another) and rather like her as a personality. >But I resent her current philistinism, which I perceive as blocking >me and my kind from Proper Recognition. > >--Bob G. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: New Poetry > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:15 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia > > > I don't know her, I am asking: > > how is it that every/any/body knows her and every/any/body >despises her? And yet she seems successful? This makes her very >interesting to my eyes. > There was an interesting answer on another list, something to do >with a calculated business, plenty of knowledge of mass reactions - >if it is true I might not like her. > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a >dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > -- From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Jun 3 16:01:20 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:01:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A0AB21.80408@ix.netcom.com> References: <42A0AB21.80408@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <5ceed8da4935d7bca3111bd9af28b495@earthlink.net> On Jun 3, 2005, at 3:10 PM, Alphaville wrote: > But I will say, I live in Prince Georges County Maryland just over the > DC line. We have by far the highest crime rate and murder rate in the > area until you get to Charm City---Baltimore. But given the majority > occurences of daily life it a is an extraordinarily pleasant place to > live. On the other hand, when I had a bookstore it was on Connecticut > Ave, upper Northwest, where the countries career murderers abound---I > mean the mass killers, people who have participated in the slaughter > of millions world wide in the name of ('shrug') real Politique, > especially people of color and practice a foreign policy that forced > millions more to flee to neighborhoods like mine. Any body who worked > in their neighborhood was just their kafir---grocery clerk, liquor > salesman, bookseller. You were made to feel completely alien and > subservient. So J. Your ark can't sail with them and oddly isn't the > ark without them. FIZZActual Product May Vary from Photos I think I remember that bookstore--Daedalus, wasn't it? Right next to the Uptown. Used to stop in there every once in a while and probably chatted with you. Hal Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Fri Jun 3 16:05:47 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:05:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A0AB21.80408@ix.netcom.com> References: <42A0AB21.80408@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <1117829147.42a0b81b84ded@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> I grew up in a fancy town on Long Island SOund outside of New Haven - not where these people summer, but where, perhaps, their slightly less affluent parents summered...at any rate, as soon as I could ride the bus, I was gone to the streets of New Haven - as soon as I was grown I moved to Hartford, where all I had to worry about was getting stabbed or raped, not the wholesale despair and horror of cocktail hour Now I live in a town where people tend to be VERY enlightened. I keep running to the mall...for balance... > On the other hand, when I had a bookstore it was on Connecticut > Ave, upper Northwest, where the countries career murderers abound---I > mean the mass killers, people who have participated in the slaughter of > millions world wide in the name of ('shrug') real Politique, especially > people of color and practice a foreign policy that forced millions more > to flee to neighborhoods like mine. Any body who worked in their > neighborhood was just their kafir---grocery clerk, liquor salesman, > bookseller. You were made to feel completely alien and subservient. So > J. Your ark can't sail with them and oddly isn't the ark without them. > FIZZ > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > Here goes, but I'm not sure this going work... > > > > > > > > The Bell Curve > > > > > > > > > > > > isn???t Olympus, > > > > it is not Golgotha, it's > > > > no mountain at all. It exists > > > > on paper, the mapping of a data set, > > > > a distribution with a mean, or, shall we say, > > > > mean streak. People live under its accursed sky, > > > > under the hard rain of numbers and raw statistics. > > > > This shape like the heavy belly of an unwed mother, it is a > > > > downturned mouth, the grimace of a boy being struck with the > > > > back of a hand. Always there are those who would use this curve as > > > > a sickle to divide us, cutting a wide swath through society, who would > > > > > > > > say that the gulf between us is too great and can not be crossed. > > > > > > > > But we will overturn their bell curve and make it our boat, the new ark. > > > > All aboard!, the different, the odd, the many colors of skin, with our > > > > common and exotic names, a Babel of tongues, hetero or queer, > > > > the impaired and the brilliant, all of the loved and those lonely > > > > or bereft, the unbelievers, the hardfallen, sane or ranting. > > > > A ship of fools, they may say, but wherever we're > > > > headed, perhaps back to the same shore we left > > > > from on this lopsided planet, we know it > > > > will be green and gregarious, and > > > > it will be good, a world > > > > worth living in. > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From shkodrov at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 16:09:15 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A0AB21.80408@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20050603200915.74284.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> Carlo, Not that I don't share a big part of your [healthy] pessimism, but I'm puzzled by your implications about those "higher forces" involved in this process... Tell me about the institutional power behind this specific phenomenon, please. Also, would you mind to give me some clarity how your #2 choice is responsible for the awful habitual applying of the prisoners' dilemma as a common problem solving technique everywhere around? Do you think that the book itself has anything to do with the fact that when people are 'managed' as a resource common patterns appear to work? What reduces people as humans to statistic are not the mechanisms themselves... mostly -- it's in the numbers and the ability to handle those numbers in real time... it's the practice not the theory that's evil. The road to hell and it's cover... One always has the liberty to withdraw in a cave... or fight a windmill... whatever pleases him/her/it... How would this change the world? Most likely it won't. The only forces that tend to build walls are the fear, anxiety, and hatred... I prefer to try J's boat... The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald Rosie Alphaville wrote: Well, you certainly captured the pessimistic intention of the book to further demoralize a race by the 'objectivity' & implied veracity of mathematization through statistics. I would have stressed the overwhelming institutional and economic power behind promoting such a line, but that's just me. I could never venture the optimism of the second part because I think there are forces that intend at all cost to "say that the gulf between us is too great and can not be crossed" and a dispassionate look at their assets tells me this is true. But I will say, I live in Prince Georges County Maryland just over the DC line. We have by far the highest crime rate and murder rate in the area until you get to Charm City---Baltimore. But given the majority occurences of daily life it a is an extraordinarily pleasant place to live. On the other hand, when I had a bookstore it was on Connecticut Ave, upper Northwest, where the countries career murderers abound---I mean the mass killers, people who have participated in the slaughter of millions world wide in the name of ('shrug') real Politique, especially people of color and practice a foreign policy that forced millions more to flee to neighborhoods like mine. Any body who worked in their neighborhood was just their kafir---grocery clerk, liquor salesman, bookseller. You were made to feel completely alien and subservient. So J. Your ark can't sail with them and oddly isn't the ark without them. FIZZ JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Here goes, but I'm not sure this going work... > > > > The Bell Curve > > > > > > isn???t Olympus, > > it is not Golgotha, it's > > no mountain at all. It exists > > on paper, the mapping of a data set, > > a distribution with a mean, or, shall we say, > > mean streak. People live under its accursed sky, > > under the hard rain of numbers and raw statistics. > > This shape like the heavy belly of an unwed mother, it is a > > downturned mouth, the grimace of a boy being struck with the > > back of a hand. Always there are those who would use this curve as > > a sickle to divide us, cutting a wide swath through society, who would > > > > say that the gulf between us is too great and can not be crossed. > > > > But we will overturn their bell curve and make it our boat, the new ark. > > All aboard!, the different, the odd, the many colors of skin, with our > > common and exotic names, a Babel of tongues, hetero or queer, > > the impaired and the brilliant, all of the loved and those lonely > > or bereft, the unbelievers, the hardfallen, sane or ranting. > > A ship of fools, they may say, but wherever we're > > headed, perhaps back to the same shore we left > > from on this lopsided planet, we know it > > will be green and gregarious, and > > it will be good, a world > > worth living in. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 16:13:51 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:13:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia, Grumman, Ballardini References: <200506031600.j53G05Re003316@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000b01c56878$d4364da0$4e169c51@Robin> ELEMNOPE writes: > I am certain, however, that if Professor Paglia > read Professor Huisman's book, "The Written Poem," she would respond > constructively. God, Richard, and there I was thinking that I was the only one who had read that book. Rosemary Huisman, +the Written Poem: Semiotic Conventions from Old to Modern English+ (Cassell, London, 1998). But what's a nice boyo like you doing messing with a book which grounds itself on on a sixties Edinburgh Scale-Catagory Maoist grammarian who skipped to Australia? Wouldn't have thought it was your scene, but. Nah? Robin From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Jun 3 16:15:03 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:15:03 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries Message-ID: <6955321.1117829703684.JavaMail.root@wamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thanks, Kerry! LOL. -- Jim -----Original Message----- From: Kerry O'Keefe Sent: Jun 3, 2005 1:05 PM To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries I grew up in a fancy town on Long Island SOund outside of New Haven - not where these people summer, but where, perhaps, their slightly less affluent parents summered...at any rate, as soon as I could ride the bus, I was gone to the streets of New Haven - as soon as I was grown I moved to Hartford, where all I had to worry about was getting stabbed or raped, not the wholesale despair and horror of cocktail hour Now I live in a town where people tend to be VERY enlightened. I keep running to the mall...for balance... From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com Fri Jun 3 16:31:28 2005 From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:31:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan Strikes Again Message-ID: <200506032031.j53KVVN5015048@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your note of: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:03:04 -0400 ************** >>http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/23/jun05/pochron.htm >> Look out. The Most Hated Man in American Poetry has a new batch of reviews >>guaranteed to anger most and delight a few. >> Jeff Newberry >> More likely bore most anyone who has seen his stuff before. Same old same old "I'm so above all of this stuff but you aren't." Richard From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 17:51:45 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:51:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan Strikes Again In-Reply-To: <200506032031.j53KVVN5015048@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> References: <200506032031.j53KVVN5015048@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a050603145168eb9827@mail.gmail.com> Actually, I agree. Logan has foot-in-mouth disease, but just doesn't seem aware of this fact. Jeff Newberry On 6/3/05, DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote: > > ***** Reply to your note of: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:03:04 -0400 ************** > >>http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/23/jun05/pochron.htm > >> Look out. The Most Hated Man in American Poetry has a new batch of > reviews > >>guaranteed to anger most and delight a few. > >> Jeff Newberry > >> > More likely bore most anyone who has seen his stuff before. Same old > same old "I'm so above all of this stuff but you aren't." > > Richard > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Fri Jun 3 18:28:40 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:28:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... Message-ID: <84.46cfbb79.2fd23398@aol.com> i don't know if someone on this list or another recently posted a poem of his or her own that was inspired by a typo in a sentence that they read in a magazine or newspaper that gave the sentence an entirely different meaning. that said, i'm wondering if anyone on this list has written a poem prompted or inspired by such a typo or a misheard statement?or if you are aware of such poems by others that imaginitively "take off" on such misprints or misheard lines. thanks. feel free to backchannel. thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Fri Jun 3 18:41:18 2005 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:41:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... In-Reply-To: <84.46cfbb79.2fd23398@aol.com> Message-ID: <02a801c5688d$625a2700$39341c40@Emily> well, there's "the man-moth" -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Thom424 at aol.com Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:29 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... i don't know if someone on this list or another recently posted a poem of his or her own that was inspired by a typo in a sentence that they read in a magazine or newspaper that gave the sentence an entirely different meaning. that said, i'm wondering if anyone on this list has written a poem prompted or inspired by such a typo or a misheard statement-or if you are aware of such poems by others that imaginitively "take off" on such misprints or misheard lines. thanks. feel free to backchannel. thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Fri Jun 3 20:01:53 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:01:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan Strikes Again Message-ID: <76.548788f4.2fd24971@aol.com> In a message dated 6/3/2005 4:31:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com writes: ***** Reply to your note of: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:03:04 -0400 ************** >>http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/23/jun05/pochron.htm >> Look out. The Most Hated Man in American Poetry has a new batch of reviews >>guaranteed to anger most and delight a few. >> Jeff Newberry >> More likely bore most anyone who has seen his stuff before. Same old same old "I'm so above all of this stuff but you aren't." Which would be fine if Logan was a great or even a very good poet. But he isn't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jun 3 20:50:15 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 01:50:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A089D8.50208@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: A spectacularly US-centric selection P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alphaville > Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th > and 20th Centuries > > **10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries ** > > ** THE EDITORS > The Assassinated Press > May, 29, 2005 ** > > **Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries > ** > > **1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** > > **2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - John von Neumann > & Oskar Morgenstern ** > > **3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** > > **4) Mein Kamp - Adolf Hitler ** > > **5)Diplomacy - Henry Kissinger ** > > **6)Eugenics and Race - William Shockley ** > > **7)A Study Of Communism - J. Edgar Hoover ** > > **8)Capitalism and Freedom - Milton Friedman ** > > **9)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow Taylor ** > > **10)The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl Popper ** > > **and more... > ** > > **11)The Road to Serfdom - Friedrich von Hayek, ** > > **12)Fountainhead - Ayn Rand ** > > **13)The Problem of The West - Frederick Jackson Turner ** > > **14)The Turner Diaries - Andrew MacDonald (William Pierce) ** > > **15)The Philippines Past and Present - Dean Worcester ** > > **16)Open Society and Its Enemies - Karl Popper ** > > **17)Ending the Vietnam War : A History of America's > Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam War - Henry > Kissinger ** > > **18)Extermination of the Pequods - George Bancroft ** > > **19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The Bell Curve ** > > **20)The Poems of Rudyard Kipling ** > > **21)Human Action - Ludwig von Mises ** > > **22)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow Taylor ** > > **23)Society of Mind - Marvin Minsky ** > > **24)The Poems of Alfred Tennyson ** > > **25)Introduction to Operations Research - C. West Churchman et al ** > > **26)Goedel, Escher, Bach - Douglas Hofstadter ** > > **27)The Anthropic Cosmological Principle - John Barrow & > Frank Tipler ** > > **28)Countercoup: The Struggle for the Control of Iran - > Kermit Roosevelt ** > > **29The Yemassee - William Gilmore Simms ** > > **30)Rapture Series - Tim LaHaye ** > > **31)The Physics of Immortality - Frank Tipler ** > > **32)Consciousness Explained - Daniel Dennett ** > > **33)Poems of William Wadsworth Longfellow ** > > **34)End of Racism - Gunga Dinesh D'Souza ** > > **35)Courtier To The Crowd: The Life Story Of Ivy Lee - Ray > Eldon Hiebert ** > > **36)Sexual Personae - Camille Paglia ** > > **37)Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand ** > > **38)Higher Superstition - Norman Levitt & Paul R. Gross ** > > **39)None Dare Call It Treason - John Stormer ** > > **with special honors to Reader's Digest, TV Guide and the > Regnery Press ** > > ** > ** > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 3 21:35:02 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:35:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries References: Message-ID: <01ee01c568a5$a16e4c60$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >A spectacularly US-centric selection Are you denying that the US is a toweringly greater center of PURE EVIL than any other nation in the history of the world???!!! What's wrong with you??!! --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Jun 3 22:04:35 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 03:04:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries References: <01ee01c568a5$a16e4c60$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00f101c568a9$c24e24b0$4e169c51@Robin> > Are you denying that the US is a toweringly greater center of PURE EVIL than > any other nation in the history of the world???!!! What's wrong with > you??!! > > --Bob G. You want PURE EVIL, try the Denniston Palais on a Slow Saturday night, Bob. The Red Rover [First one I grabbed from the Net, and the transcription is shot to bits. Not that anyone's likely to notice, unless they happened to have kited doon the back of the hill behind the Palais on a single roller skate balanced on a copy of the Beano annual . :-( R. ] {AND the "notes" are pure shite -- as for instance, why the Lady In Question is called 'Hairy Mary'. ... *and* they get the term "dunny" totally wrong. Angels weep. } * /* /* Cod Liver Oil And The Orange Juice (Ron Clark / Carl McDougall) Oot o' the East there came a hard man Oh oh, a' the way frae Brigton Ah haw, glory hallelujah Cod liver oil and the orange juice He went intae a pub, an' he cam oot paralytic Oh oh, VP [or Lanliq] an' cider Ah haw, what a helluva mixture ... (Spoken: Sex rears its ugly head now ...) Does this bus go tae the Dennistoun Palais I'm looking for a lumber Ah haw, glory hallelujah ... (Eyes up the talent ... and lo and behold!) In the dancin' he met Hairy Mary Oh oh, the floo'er o' the Gorbals Ah haw, glory hallelujah ... (Chats her up ...) Oh noo Mary, are ye dancin' Naw, naw, it's jist the way ah'm stannin' Ah haw, glory hallelujah ... (Rebuffed ...) Oh Mary, yer wan in a million Oh oh, so's yer chances Ah haw, glory hallelujah ... (Rebuffed again!) Well then Mary, can ah run ye hame Oh oh, ah've got a pair o' sandshoes Ah haw, yer helluva funny ... (Never say die ... sways aboot nonchalantly, picks his nails wi' his bayonet - and he knocks it off!) Doon through the back close an' intae the dunny It wasnae for the first time Ah haw, glory hallelujah ... Then oot cam her mammy, she's goin' tae the cludgie Oh oh, ah buggered off sharpish Ah haw, glory hallelujah ... Hairy Mary looking for her hard man Oh oh, he's jined the Foreign Legion Ah haw, Sahara an' ra camels ... Then Hairy Mary had a little baby Oh oh, its faither's in the Army Ah haw, glory hallelujah ... (East - Glasgow's east end; Brigton - the Glasgow suburb of Bridgeton) (VP, Lanliq - cheap fortified wines) (Dennistoun Palais - dance hall in the east end suburb of Dennistoun) (Gorbals - former Glasgow inner-city slum district) (sandshoes - sneakers) (dunny - tenement passage or basement) (cludgie - shared toilet in tenement blocks) As sung by Hamish Imlach From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 3 22:45:16 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:45:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <5ceed8da4935d7bca3111bd9af28b495@earthlink.net> References: <42A0AB21.80408@ix.netcom.com> <5ceed8da4935d7bca3111bd9af28b495@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42A115BC.1070806@ix.netcom.com> Close. Alphaville a mile north next to the Avalon Theatre. FIZZ Halvard Johnson wrote: > > On Jun 3, 2005, at 3:10 PM, Alphaville wrote: > >> But I will say, I live in Prince Georges County Maryland just over >> the DC line. We have by far the highest crime rate and murder rate in >> the area until you get to Charm City---Baltimore. But given the >> majority occurences of daily life it a is an extraordinarily pleasant >> place to live. On the other hand, when I had a bookstore it was on >> Connecticut Ave, upper Northwest, where the countries career >> murderers abound---I mean the mass killers, people who have >> participated in the slaughter of millions world wide in the name of >> ('shrug') real Politique, especially people of color and practice a >> foreign policy that forced millions more to flee to neighborhoods >> like mine. Any body who worked in their neighborhood was just their >> kafir---grocery clerk, liquor salesman, bookseller. You were made to >> feel completely alien and subservient. So J. Your ark can't sail >> with them and oddly isn't the ark without them. FIZZActual Product >> May Vary from Photos > > > I think I remember that bookstore--Daedalus, wasn't it? Right next to > the Uptown. > Used to stop in there every once in a while and probably chatted with > you. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > halvard at earthlink.net > halvard at gmail.com > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 3 23:44:38 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 23:44:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <20050603200915.74284.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050603200915.74284.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A123A6.8060307@ix.netcom.com> Yeah. That's the more popular strain. As far as the instituiton is concerned I simply wanted to press the point that the authors of the titles on the list largely were bought and paid for whores of the kleptocracy and were in that very deep sense not independent agents of thought but part of a brutal system that by the machinations of a Bernays for example has made individuals with egalitarian motives and less, little or no resources out to be the all-powerful villains---see Human Events list. Of course, they had ideas that appealed to the kleptocracy because those ideas enhanced wealth and control. As far as on von Neumann/Morgenstern et al: There is a deeper confluence in western thought that has always found systems of formalization and mathematzation suspect. Modern critics of aspects of formalization off the top of my head are Hegel, Kant, Niels Bohr, Paul Feyerabend, Russell Hanson, Edmund Husserl, Martin Heidegger, Ted Adorno, Max Horheimer, Bruno Latour, Hans Gadamer, David Bohm, John Searle, Hubert Dreyfus etc. etc. One strain among many of the critique, is that the very method of formalization or mathematization by the the very nature of the necessity to shed most variables that operate in the actual in ordr to make the synthetic or formal work possible(managable) and to make science 'work',---these shed varaibles hang around as unanticipated anomalies. Though I wasn't reading the French deconstructionists on science and technology in the 60's and 70's, I was thinking along the same lines and I unabashedly agree with their most extreme conclusions and Feyerabend's at his most radical. Von Neumann and Morgenstern, dealing with economics carry a set of statistical mathematical theories into the social sciences e.g. economics where the variable is the individual. Cultural, religious, historical differences are shed to produce the man as number. Its the limitations of the formalism that are responsible for the subsequent slaughter, say in the form of operations research methods applied to indigenous people in Southeast. It the methodology that prodics the chauvinsim and millions die. Morgenstern was essentially going along for the ride and provided addendums to what v. N. was doing. Hies contribution is almost window dressing. Von Neumann on the other hand was a son of a bitch easily caoable of ignoring any suffering his ideas might have caused. Do you mean The Tyranny of Numbers as it relates to computation and machines? This is the usual mea culpa. My feeling is we should have a Nuremberg for folks who try this sort of shit, who accept the funds but not the responsibility, say forms of unanticipated air pollution if they manifest themselves while they're still living. But they use the objectivity of the method as a way to avoid prosecution. A world where you were going to be held personally responsible, say hanged, if the internal combustion engine resulted in unanticipated forms of death and planetary degradation. That would change the ethical intensity and motives in the pursuit of science right quick as well as encourage adjustments in methodology. Science would become real careful. I mean if the method wantonly leaves out variables as it most certainly does, that constitutes intent especially because it insists upon the fungibility of its elements. Do you mean its fungilbility? That's its greatest abuse. That it can be superimposed quantitatively over anything that can be sheared down to seem as though it acomodates a fit. "Logic is the money of the mind." Marx said. We got that motherfucker on us now, don't we Rosie. With systems of formalization and mathematization producing technologies that now bump up against global ecological systems and reveal them as it destroys them, I don't see any possibility of switching gears scientifically/culturally. The alternative cultures were kiled off by the West first. they're either dead or hopelessly derivative. So now I write about the Eschatology of Reason-----the study of the endtime that enlightenment reason has brought into existence. Hell, of a topic for poetry. FIZZ excuse spelling, grammatical errors in advance Rosie Shkodrov wrote: > Carlo, > Not that I don't share a big part of your [healthy] pessimism, but I'm > puzzled by your implications about those "higher forces" involved in > this process... Tell me about the institutional power behind this > specific phenomenon, please. Also, would you mind to give me some > clarity how your #2 choice is responsible for the awful habitual > applying of the prisoners' dilemma as a common problem solving > technique everywhere around? Do you think that the book itself has > anything to do with the fact that when people are 'managed' as a > resource common patterns appear to work? What reduces people as humans > to statistic are not the mechanisms themselves... mostly -- it's in > the numbers and the ability to handle those numbers in real time... > it's the practice not the theory that's evil. The road to hell and > it's cover... One always has the liberty to withdraw in a cave... or > fight a windmill... whatever pleases him/her/it... How would this > change the world? Most likel! y it won't. > The only forces that tend to build walls are the fear, anxiety, and > hatred... I prefer to try J's boat... > The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two > opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the > ability to function. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald > > Rosie > > */Alphaville /* wrote: > > Well, you certainly captured the pessimistic intention of the book to > further demoralize a race by the 'objectivity' & implied veracity of > mathematization through statistics. I would have stressed the > overwhelming institutional and economic power behind promoting such a > line, but that's just me. > > I could never venture the optimism of the second part because I think > there are forces that intend at all cost to "say that the gulf > between > us is too great and can not be crossed" and a dispassionate look at > their assets tells me this is true. > > But I will say, I live in Prince Georges County Maryland just over > the > DC line. We have by far the highest crime rate and murder rate in the > area until you get to Charm City---Baltimore. But given the majority > occurences of daily life it a is an extraordinarily pleasant place to > live! . On the other hand, when I had a bookstore it was on > Connecticut > Ave, upper Northwest, where the countries career murderers abound---I > mean the mass killers, people who have participated in the > slaughter of > millions world wide in the name of ('shrug') real Politique, > especially > people of color and practice a foreign policy that forced millions > more > to flee to neighborhoods like mine. Any body who worked in their > neighborhood was just their kafir---grocery clerk, liquor salesman, > bookseller. You were made to feel completely alien and > subservient. So > J. Your ark can't sail with them and oddly isn't the ark without > them. > FIZZ > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > Here goes, but I'm not sure this going work... > > > > > > > > The Bell Curve > > > > > > > > > > > > isn???t Olympus, > > > > it is not Golgotha, it's > > > > no mountain at all. It exists > > > > on paper, the mapping of! a data set, > > > > a distribution with a mean, or, shall we say, > > > > mean streak. People live under its accursed sky, > > > > under the hard rain of numbers and raw statistics. > > > > This shape like the heavy belly of an unwed mother, it is a > > > > downturned mouth, the grimace of a boy being struck with the > > > > back of a hand. Always there are those who would use this curve as > > > > a sickle to divide us, cutting a wide swath through society, who > would > > > > > > > > say that the gulf between us is too great and can not be crossed. > > > > > > > > But we will overturn their bell curve and make it our boat, the > new ark. > > > > All aboard!, the different, the odd, the many colors of skin, > with our > > > > common and exotic names, a Babel of tongues, hetero or queer, > > > > the impaired and the brilliant, all of the loved and those lonely > > > >! ; or bereft, the unbelievers, the hardfallen, sane or ranting. > > > > A ship of fools, they may say, but wherever we're > > > > headed, perhaps back to the same shore we left > > > > from on this lopsided planet, we know it > > > > will be green and gregarious, and > > > > it will be good, a world > > > > worth living in. > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 3 23:52:47 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 23:52:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <01ee01c568a5$a16e4c60$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <01ee01c568a5$a16e4c60$23b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42A1258F.6020202@ix.netcom.com> Claims to be number ONE. Becomes the underdog, the innocent damoiselle when its demonstrated what that means. "Its always amusing when the pauperized citizenry gets out and tries to club the dissenter with the hods of its own yolk." FIZZ Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> A spectacularly US-centric selection > > > > Are you denying that the US is a toweringly greater center of PURE > EVIL than any other nation in the history of the world???!!! What's > wrong with you??!! > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Sat Jun 4 00:04:33 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:04:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A123A6.8060307@ix.netcom.com> References: <20050603200915.74284.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> <42A123A6.8060307@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <1117857873.42a12851a0204@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> What is this reference to? Quoting Alphaville : > > > Von Neumann and Morgenstern, dealing with economics carry a set of > statistical mathematical theories into the social sciences e.g. > economics where the variable is the individual. Cultural, religious, > historical differences are shed to produce the man as number. Its the > limitations of the formalism that are responsible for the subsequent > slaughter, say in the form of operations research methods applied to > indigenous people in Southeast. It the methodology that prodics the > chauvinsim and millions die. > Morgenstern was essentially going along for the ride and provided > addendums to what v. N. was doing. Hies contribution is almost window > dressing. Von Neumann on the other hand was a son of a bitch easily > caoable of ignoring any suffering his ideas might have caused. > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 4 00:04:37 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 00:04:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A12855.6030606@ix.netcom.com> Claims to be number ONE. Becomes the underdog, the innocent damoiselle when its demonstrated what that means. "Its always amusing when the pauperized citizenry gets out and tries to club the dissenter with the hods of its own yolk." FIZZ Peter Cudmore wrote: >A spectacularly US-centric selection > >P > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alphaville >>Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 >>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th >>and 20th Centuries >> >>**10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries ** >> >>** THE EDITORS >>The Assassinated Press >>May, 29, 2005 ** >> >>**Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries >>** >> >>**1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** >> >>**2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - John von Neumann >>& Oskar Morgenstern ** >> >>**3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** >> >>**4) Mein Kamp - Adolf Hitler ** >> >>**5)Diplomacy - Henry Kissinger ** >> >>**6)Eugenics and Race - William Shockley ** >> >>**7)A Study Of Communism - J. Edgar Hoover ** >> >>**8)Capitalism and Freedom - Milton Friedman ** >> >>**9)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow Taylor ** >> >>**10)The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl Popper ** >> >>**and more... >>** >> >>**11)The Road to Serfdom - Friedrich von Hayek, ** >> >>**12)Fountainhead - Ayn Rand ** >> >>**13)The Problem of The West - Frederick Jackson Turner ** >> >>**14)The Turner Diaries - Andrew MacDonald (William Pierce) ** >> >>**15)The Philippines Past and Present - Dean Worcester ** >> >>**16)Open Society and Its Enemies - Karl Popper ** >> >>**17)Ending the Vietnam War : A History of America's >>Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam War - Henry >>Kissinger ** >> >>**18)Extermination of the Pequods - George Bancroft ** >> >>**19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The Bell Curve ** >> >>**20)The Poems of Rudyard Kipling ** >> >>**21)Human Action - Ludwig von Mises ** >> >>**22)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow Taylor ** >> >>**23)Society of Mind - Marvin Minsky ** >> >>**24)The Poems of Alfred Tennyson ** >> >>**25)Introduction to Operations Research - C. West Churchman et al ** >> >>**26)Goedel, Escher, Bach - Douglas Hofstadter ** >> >>**27)The Anthropic Cosmological Principle - John Barrow & >>Frank Tipler ** >> >>**28)Countercoup: The Struggle for the Control of Iran - >>Kermit Roosevelt ** >> >>**29The Yemassee - William Gilmore Simms ** >> >>**30)Rapture Series - Tim LaHaye ** >> >>**31)The Physics of Immortality - Frank Tipler ** >> >>**32)Consciousness Explained - Daniel Dennett ** >> >>**33)Poems of William Wadsworth Longfellow ** >> >>**34)End of Racism - Gunga Dinesh D'Souza ** >> >>**35)Courtier To The Crowd: The Life Story Of Ivy Lee - Ray >>Eldon Hiebert ** >> >>**36)Sexual Personae - Camille Paglia ** >> >>**37)Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand ** >> >>**38)Higher Superstition - Norman Levitt & Paul R. Gross ** >> >>**39)None Dare Call It Treason - John Stormer ** >> >>**with special honors to Reader's Digest, TV Guide and the >>Regnery Press ** >> >>** >>** >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 4 00:08:22 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 00:08:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <1117857873.42a12851a0204@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> References: <20050603200915.74284.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> <42A123A6.8060307@ix.netcom.com> <1117857873.42a12851a0204@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: <42A12936.7080902@ix.netcom.com> I now sell books online. I just sold Bayes Theory-Hartigan, mathematics substituting for ethics to right sins done by mathematizations of the past. All very funny. And a Fuzzy Set to you too. FIZZ Kerry O'Keefe wrote: >What is this reference to? > >Quoting Alphaville : > > > >>> >> >>Von Neumann and Morgenstern, dealing with economics carry a set of >>statistical mathematical theories into the social sciences e.g. >>economics where the variable is the individual. Cultural, religious, >>historical differences are shed to produce the man as number. Its the >>limitations of the formalism that are responsible for the subsequent >>slaughter, say in the form of operations research methods applied to >>indigenous people in Southeast. It the methodology that prodics the >>chauvinsim and millions die. >>Morgenstern was essentially going along for the ride and provided >>addendums to what v. N. was doing. Hies contribution is almost window >>dressing. Von Neumann on the other hand was a son of a bitch easily >>caoable of ignoring any suffering his ideas might have caused. >> >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Sat Jun 4 00:11:40 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:11:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A12936.7080902@ix.netcom.com> References: <20050603200915.74284.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> <42A123A6.8060307@ix.netcom.com> <1117857873.42a12851a0204@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> <42A12936.7080902@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <1117858300.42a129fc2cf39@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> No, CP. What is the event that took place in the SOUtheast, referred to below in the LARGE PARAGRAPH. christ! Quoting Alphaville : > I now sell books online. I just sold Bayes Theory-Hartigan, mathematics > substituting for ethics to right sins done by mathematizations of the > past. All very funny. And a Fuzzy Set to you too. FIZZ > > Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > > >What is this reference to? > > > >Quoting Alphaville : > > > > > > > >> >> > >> > >>Von Neumann and Morgenstern, dealing with economics carry a set of > >>statistical mathematical theories into the social sciences e.g. > >>economics where the variable is the individual. Cultural, religious, > >>historical differences are shed to produce the man as number. Its the > >>limitations of the formalism that are responsible for the subsequent > >>slaughter, say in the form of operations research methods applied to > >>indigenous people in Southeast. It the methodology that prodics the > >>chauvinsim and millions die. > >>Morgenstern was essentially going along for the ride and provided > >>addendums to what v. N. was doing. Hies contribution is almost window > >>dressing. Von Neumann on the other hand was a son of a bitch easily > >>caoable of ignoring any suffering his ideas might have caused. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 4 00:24:10 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 00:24:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <1117858300.42a129fc2cf39@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> References: <20050603200915.74284.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> <42A123A6.8060307@ix.netcom.com> <1117857873.42a12851a0204@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> <42A12936.7080902@ix.netcom.com> <1117858300.42a129fc2cf39@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: <42A12CEA.20308@ix.netcom.com> Oh. Sorry Kerry. I meant to write Southeast 'Asia' which in turn is shorthand for cultural chauvinism and the blind abstract 'culural' chauvinsim of western mathematical formalisms. FIZZ Kerry O'Keefe wrote: >No, CP. What is the event that took place in the SOUtheast, referred to below >in the LARGE PARAGRAPH. christ! > >Quoting Alphaville : > > > >>I now sell books online. I just sold Bayes Theory-Hartigan, mathematics >>substituting for ethics to right sins done by mathematizations of the >>past. All very funny. And a Fuzzy Set to you too. FIZZ >> >>Kerry O'Keefe wrote: >> >> >> >>>What is this reference to? >>> >>>Quoting Alphaville : >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>Von Neumann and Morgenstern, dealing with economics carry a set of >>>>statistical mathematical theories into the social sciences e.g. >>>>economics where the variable is the individual. Cultural, religious, >>>>historical differences are shed to produce the man as number. Its the >>>>limitations of the formalism that are responsible for the subsequent >>>>slaughter, say in the form of operations research methods applied to >>>>indigenous people in Southeast. It the methodology that prodics the >>>>chauvinsim and millions die. >>>>Morgenstern was essentially going along for the ride and provided >>>>addendums to what v. N. was doing. Hies contribution is almost window >>>>dressing. Von Neumann on the other hand was a son of a bitch easily >>>>caoable of ignoring any suffering his ideas might have caused. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Sat Jun 4 00:28:27 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:28:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A12CEA.20308@ix.netcom.com> References: <20050603200915.74284.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> <42A123A6.8060307@ix.netcom.com> <1117857873.42a12851a0204@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> <42A12936.7080902@ix.netcom.com> <1117858300.42a129fc2cf39@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> <42A12CEA.20308@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <1117859307.42a12debed04f@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> merci. Quoting Alphaville : > Oh. Sorry Kerry. I meant to write Southeast 'Asia' which in turn is > shorthand for cultural chauvinism and the blind abstract 'culural' > chauvinsim of western mathematical formalisms. FIZZ > > Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > > >No, CP. What is the event that took place in the SOUtheast, referred to > below > >in the LARGE PARAGRAPH. christ! > > > >Quoting Alphaville : > > > > > > > >>I now sell books online. I just sold Bayes Theory-Hartigan, mathematics > >>substituting for ethics to right sins done by mathematizations of the > >>past. All very funny. And a Fuzzy Set to you too. FIZZ > >> > >>Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>What is this reference to? > >>> > >>>Quoting Alphaville : > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Von Neumann and Morgenstern, dealing with economics carry a set of > >>>>statistical mathematical theories into the social sciences e.g. > >>>>economics where the variable is the individual. Cultural, religious, > >>>>historical differences are shed to produce the man as number. Its the > >>>>limitations of the formalism that are responsible for the subsequent > >>>>slaughter, say in the form of operations research methods applied to > >>>>indigenous people in Southeast. It the methodology that prodics the > >>>>chauvinsim and millions die. > >>>>Morgenstern was essentially going along for the ride and provided > >>>>addendums to what v. N. was doing. Hies contribution is almost window > >>>>dressing. Von Neumann on the other hand was a son of a bitch easily > >>>>caoable of ignoring any suffering his ideas might have caused. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>New-Poetry mailing list > >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>New-Poetry mailing list > >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Sat Jun 4 00:31:16 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:31:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <1117859307.42a12debed04f@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> References: <20050603200915.74284.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> <42A123A6.8060307@ix.netcom.com> <1117857873.42a12851a0204@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> <42A12936.7080902@ix.netcom.com> <1117858300.42a129fc2cf39@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> <42A12CEA.20308@ix.netcom.com> <1117859307.42a12debed04f@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: <1117859476.42a12e94efc18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> I like this thread. I can almost follow it. I will ponder these things as I go feed the goddam gecko and prepare to sleep. cheers, all. k. Quoting Kerry O'Keefe : > merci. > > Quoting Alphaville : > > > Oh. Sorry Kerry. I meant to write Southeast 'Asia' which in turn is > > shorthand for cultural chauvinism and the blind abstract 'culural' > > chauvinsim of western mathematical formalisms. FIZZ > > > > Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > > > > >No, CP. What is the event that took place in the SOUtheast, referred to > > below > > >in the LARGE PARAGRAPH. christ! > > > > > >Quoting Alphaville : > > > > > > > > > > > >>I now sell books online. I just sold Bayes Theory-Hartigan, mathematics > > > >>substituting for ethics to right sins done by mathematizations of the > > >>past. All very funny. And a Fuzzy Set to you too. FIZZ > > >> > > >>Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>What is this reference to? > > >>> > > >>>Quoting Alphaville : > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>Von Neumann and Morgenstern, dealing with economics carry a set of > > >>>>statistical mathematical theories into the social sciences e.g. > > >>>>economics where the variable is the individual. Cultural, religious, > > >>>>historical differences are shed to produce the man as number. Its the > > >>>>limitations of the formalism that are responsible for the subsequent > > >>>>slaughter, say in the form of operations research methods applied to > > >>>>indigenous people in Southeast. It the methodology that prodics the > > >>>>chauvinsim and millions die. > > >>>>Morgenstern was essentially going along for the ride and provided > > >>>>addendums to what v. N. was doing. Hies contribution is almost window > > >>>>dressing. Von Neumann on the other hand was a son of a bitch easily > > >>>>caoable of ignoring any suffering his ideas might have caused. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>New-Poetry mailing list > > >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>New-Poetry mailing list > > >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad at opus40.org Sat Jun 4 03:26:59 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 03:26:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: <84.46cfbb79.2fd23398@aol.com> Message-ID: <005701c568d6$ceecc280$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Thom - I have a feeling I've exceeded my limit for this month, and I promise to all try to be better and more self-effacing, but I do have a poem based on a misread statement that was sorta interesting. Reading an article about a performance artist, I came across the statement that she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the bear. I thought this was one of the most fascinating ideas I'd ever read. Then I looked again and saw that it actually said she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the heart. This was a territory, I realized, which held no interest whatever for me. But what about that territory where the only map is the map of the bear? I wanted to know more about that...a territory where the wilderness mapped itself. I had been deeply moved by Kurosawa's great movie, Dersu Uzala, where mapmaking becomes a symbol for both exploration and limitation, and I started to feel that I had to know more about the territory mapped only by the bear. This was the poem that came of it. THE MAP OF THE BEAR The only map is the map of the bear. Your best hope is to follow it closely, Closer than dogs. It's engraved with your spoor, You wake in the night to find it partly Charred by the dying fire. The only Map is the map of the bear. Follow It closer than dogs. Your best hope is To read the part engraved below The surface of the fire. Sleepless, You move by night. The only map is The map of the bear. Dogs know, That's why they follow with no hope The dying spoor. You're passing through Fire, you've passed through sleep, Now the only map is the map Of the bear. Now hope gives up Its secrets, now you follow where Dogs won't go, even in sleep. Above, the route's engraved on fire. The only map is the map of the bear. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Thom424 at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 6:28 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... i don't know if someone on this list or another recently posted a poem of his or her own that was inspired by a typo in a sentence that they read in a magazine or newspaper that gave the sentence an entirely different meaning. that said, i'm wondering if anyone on this list has written a poem prompted or inspired by such a typo or a misheard statement?or if you are aware of such poems by others that imaginitively "take off" on such misprints or misheard lines. thanks. feel free to backchannel. thom tammaro moorhead, mn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jun 4 03:50:31 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 03:50:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Raban, Lowell, Bishop, Berryman Message-ID: <006b01c568da$184f3310$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Jonathan Raban's article on Lowell, in the NY Review of Books, begins Robert Lowell's star has waned very considerably since his death in 1977, when his obituarists treated him, along with Yeats, Eliot, Auden, and Wallace Stevens, as one of the handful of unquestionably great twentieth-century poets. The publication two years ago of Frank Bidart and David Gewanter's massive edition of the Collected Poems did much to restore his work to public and critical view, but even now Lowell's poems are, I would guess, less widely read, taught, and anthologized than those of his two friends and contemporaries Elizabeth Bishop and John Berryman-a judgment, if that is what it is, that would have astonished serious readers of poetry between the 1950s and the 1970s. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18071 True? Is Berryman so hot these days? Is Lowell so cold? And why do we feel such compulsion to stick thermometers up the asses of our recently dead? Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sat Jun 4 06:17:05 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 06:17:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... Message-ID: <1d5.3d590f8d.2fd2d9a1@aol.com> Nice one, Tad. In a message dated 6/4/2005 3:27:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Thom - I have a feeling I've exceeded my limit for this month, and I promise to all try to be better and more self-effacing, but I do have a poem based on a misread statement that was sorta interesting. Reading an article about a performance artist, I came across the statement that she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the bear. I thought this was one of the most fascinating ideas I'd ever read. Then I looked again and saw that it actually said she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the heart. This was a territory, I realized, which held no interest whatever for me. But what about that territory where the only map is the map of the bear? I wanted to know more about that...a territory where the wilderness mapped itself. I had been deeply moved by Kurosawa's great movie, Dersu Uzala, where mapmaking becomes a symbol for both exploration and limitation, and I started to feel that I had to know more about the territory mapped only by the bear. This was the poem that came of it. THE MAP OF THE BEAR The only map is the map of the bear. Your best hope is to follow it closely, Closer than dogs. It's engraved with your spoor, You wake in the night to find it partly Charred by the dying fire. The only Map is the map of the bear. Follow It closer than dogs. Your best hope is To read the part engraved below The surface of the fire. Sleepless, You move by night. The only map is The map of the bear. Dogs know, That's why they follow with no hope The dying spoor. You're passing through Fire, you've passed through sleep, Now the only map is the map Of the bear. Now hope gives up Its secrets, now you follow where Dogs won't go, even in sleep. Above, the route's engraved on fire.The only map is the map of the bear. Tad Richards _www.opus40.org_ (http://www.opus40.org/) ----- Original Message ----- From: _Thom424 at aol.com_ (mailto:Thom424 at aol.com) To: _new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu_ (mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 6:28 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... i don't know if someone on this list or another recently posted a poem of his or her own that was inspired by a typo in a sentence that they read in a magazine or newspaper that gave the sentence an entirely different meaning. that said, i'm wondering if anyone on this list has written a poem prompted or inspired by such a typo or a misheard statement?or if you are aware of such poems by others that imaginitively "take off" on such misprints or misheard lines. thanks. feel free to backchannel. thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 06:52:52 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 03:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050604105252.41037.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> this list suggests that everyone (US everyone) who wrote a significant book that opposed Communism + Adolf Hitler (who also opposed it) is suspect. Who compiled this list and why has it been posted? PM --- Peter Cudmore wrote: > A spectacularly US-centric selection > > P > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On > Behalf Of Alphaville > > Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 > > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books > of the 19th > > and 20th Centuries > > > > **10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th > Centuries ** > > > > ** THE EDITORS > > The Assassinated Press > > May, 29, 2005 ** > > > > **Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th > Centuries > > ** > > > > **1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** > > > > **2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - John > von Neumann > > & Oskar Morgenstern ** > > > > **3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** > > > > **4) Mein Kamp - Adolf Hitler ** > > > > **5)Diplomacy - Henry Kissinger ** > > > > **6)Eugenics and Race - William Shockley ** > > > > **7)A Study Of Communism - J. Edgar Hoover ** > > > > **8)Capitalism and Freedom - Milton Friedman ** > > > > **9)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow > Taylor ** > > > > **10)The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl > Popper ** > > > > **and more... > > ** > > > > **11)The Road to Serfdom - Friedrich von Hayek, ** > > > > **12)Fountainhead - Ayn Rand ** > > > > **13)The Problem of The West - Frederick Jackson > Turner ** > > > > **14)The Turner Diaries - Andrew MacDonald > (William Pierce) ** > > > > **15)The Philippines Past and Present - Dean > Worcester ** > > > > **16)Open Society and Its Enemies - Karl Popper ** > > > > **17)Ending the Vietnam War : A History of > America's > > Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam > War - Henry > > Kissinger ** > > > > **18)Extermination of the Pequods - George > Bancroft ** > > > > **19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The > Bell Curve ** > > > > **20)The Poems of Rudyard Kipling ** > > > > **21)Human Action - Ludwig von Mises ** > > > > **22)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow > Taylor ** > > > > **23)Society of Mind - Marvin Minsky ** > > > > **24)The Poems of Alfred Tennyson ** > > > > **25)Introduction to Operations Research - C. West > Churchman et al ** > > > > **26)Goedel, Escher, Bach - Douglas Hofstadter ** > > > > **27)The Anthropic Cosmological Principle - John > Barrow & > > Frank Tipler ** > > > > **28)Countercoup: The Struggle for the Control of > Iran - > > Kermit Roosevelt ** > > > > **29The Yemassee - William Gilmore Simms ** > > > > **30)Rapture Series - Tim LaHaye ** > > > > **31)The Physics of Immortality - Frank Tipler ** > > > > **32)Consciousness Explained - Daniel Dennett ** > > > > **33)Poems of William Wadsworth Longfellow ** > > > > **34)End of Racism - Gunga Dinesh D'Souza ** > > > > **35)Courtier To The Crowd: The Life Story Of Ivy > Lee - Ray > > Eldon Hiebert ** > > > > **36)Sexual Personae - Camille Paglia ** > > > > **37)Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand ** > > > > **38)Higher Superstition - Norman Levitt & Paul R. > Gross ** > > > > **39)None Dare Call It Treason - John Stormer ** > > > > **with special honors to Reader's Digest, TV Guide > and the > > Regnery Press ** > > > > ** > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 4 07:14:19 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 07:14:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: <1d5.3d590f8d.2fd2d9a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <002e01c568f6$8ff32f90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Nice one, Tad. It'd be better if it were a rebus, but I have to reluctantly agree that it's a good one. That the dogs won't follow the map at the end EVEN IN SLEEP is, in fact, a terrific touch. Yes, "map of the heart" is a dud. But what, I wonder, would be a good counter-map to the map of the bear? "Map of the scientist" would work but has no bear-map-resonance. "Map of the machine" would be unfair. What animal could represent pure analyticality? I can't think of one. The map of some god? There are gods of wisdom but not of analytical thinking, that I can think of. . . . --Bob G. In a message dated 6/4/2005 3:27:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Thom - I have a feeling I've exceeded my limit for this month, and I promise to all try to be better and more self-effacing, but I do have a poem based on a misread statement that was sorta interesting. Reading an article about a performance artist, I came across the statement that she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the bear. I thought this was one of the most fascinating ideas I'd ever read. Then I looked again and saw that it actually said she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the heart. This was a territory, I realized, which held no interest whatever for me. But what about that territory where the only map is the map of the bear? I wanted to know more about that...a territory where the wilderness mapped itself. I had been deeply moved by Kurosawa's great movie, Dersu Uzala, where mapmaking becomes a symbol for both exploration and limitation, and I started to feel that I had to know more about the territory mapped only by the bear. This was the poem that came of it. THE MAP OF THE BEAR The only map is the map of the bear. Your best hope is to follow it closely, Closer than dogs. It's engraved with your spoor, You wake in the night to find it partly Charred by the dying fire. The only Map is the map of the bear. Follow It closer than dogs. Your best hope is To read the part engraved below The surface of the fire. Sleepless, You move by night. The only map is The map of the bear. Dogs know, That's why they follow with no hope The dying spoor. You're passing through Fire, you've passed through sleep, Now the only map is the map Of the bear. Now hope gives up Its secrets, now you follow where Dogs won't go, even in sleep. Above, the route's engraved on fire. The only map is the map of the bear. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Thom424 at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 6:28 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... i don't know if someone on this list or another recently posted a poem of his or her own that was inspired by a typo in a sentence that they read in a magazine or newspaper that gave the sentence an entirely different meaning. that said, i'm wondering if anyone on this list has written a poem prompted or inspired by such a typo or a misheard statement?or if you are aware of such poems by others that imaginitively "take off" on such misprints or misheard lines. thanks. feel free to backchannel. thom tammaro moorhead, mn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 4 09:21:53 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:21:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: <1d5.3d590f8d.2fd2d9a1@aol.com> <002e01c568f6$8ff32f90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <019e01c56908$609bb840$4e169c51@Robin> Nice one, Tad. Concur It'd be better if it were a rebus, but I have to reluctantly agree that it's a good one. That the dogs won't follow the map at the end EVEN IN SLEEP is, in fact, a terrific touch. Yes, "map of the heart" is a dud. But what, I wonder, would be a good counter-map to the map of the bear? "Map of the scientist" would work but has no bear-map-resonance. "Map of the machine" would be unfair. What animal could represent pure analyticality? I can't think of one. The map of some god? There are gods of wisdom but not of analytical thinking, that I can think of. . . . --Bob G. How about "map of the ant hill" or beehive? Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Sat Jun 4 09:25:01 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 9:25:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pure Analyticality / Map of the Bear Message-ID: <200506041325.j54DP1CF015438@mail3.atl.registeredsite.com> 9 "Nice one, Tad." Yes, I agree. Thank you, Tad! "That the dogs won't follow the map at the end EVEN IN SLEEP is, in fact, a terrific touch." Yes. I agree. And: Not even in their dreams. . . . "What animal could represent pure analyticality?" The tortoise? "There are gods of wisdom but not of analytical thinking, that I can think of. . . . --Bob G." Apollo? (I'm thinking of Nietzsche's "Apollinian.") Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino 9 From tad at opus40.org Sat Jun 4 09:52:47 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:52:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: <1d5.3d590f8d.2fd2d9a1@aol.com><002e01c568f6$8ff32f90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <019e01c56908$609bb840$4e169c51@Robin> Message-ID: <003e01c5690c$b3885eb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Thanks all. I'll be dividing up Sam's check and sending a small fraction out to everyone. "Even in sleep" was, I think, the last revision I made to the poem. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... Nice one, Tad. Concur It'd be better if it were a rebus, but I have to reluctantly agree that it's a good one. That the dogs won't follow the map at the end EVEN IN SLEEP is, in fact, a terrific touch. Yes, "map of the heart" is a dud. But what, I wonder, would be a good counter-map to the map of the bear? "Map of the scientist" would work but has no bear-map-resonance. "Map of the machine" would be unfair. What animal could represent pure analyticality? I can't think of one. The map of some god? There are gods of wisdom but not of analytical thinking, that I can think of. . . . --Bob G. How about "map of the ant hill" or beehive? Robin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jun 4 10:00:01 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 16:00:01 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pure Analyticality / Map of the Bear References: <200506041325.j54DP1CF015438@mail3.atl.registeredsite.com> Message-ID: <005901c5690d$b64cb960$d1d93052@ANNY> Mercury, quick silver___ From: Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 3:25 PM > 9 > > > "Nice one, Tad." > > Yes, I agree. Thank you, Tad! > > > "That the dogs won't follow the map at the end EVEN IN SLEEP is, in fact, > a terrific touch." > > Yes. I agree. And: Not even in their dreams. . . . > > "What animal could represent pure analyticality?" > > The tortoise? > > "There are gods of wisdom but not of analytical thinking, that I can think > of. > . . . --Bob G." > > Apollo? (I'm thinking of Nietzsche's "Apollinian.") > > > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino > > > 9 > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad at opus40.org Sat Jun 4 10:05:53 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:05:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pure Analyticality / Map of the Bear References: <200506041325.j54DP1CF015438@mail3.atl.registeredsite.com> Message-ID: <008a01c5690e$88208b60$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> For another poem which depends on a misread line -- here's Donald Hall, on a misreading of his own handwriting. http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/hall.html Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:25 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pure Analyticality / Map of the Bear > 9 > > > "Nice one, Tad." > > Yes, I agree. Thank you, Tad! > > > "That the dogs won't follow the map at the end EVEN IN SLEEP is, in fact, > a terrific touch." > > Yes. I agree. And: Not even in their dreams. . . . > > "What animal could represent pure analyticality?" > > The tortoise? > > "There are gods of wisdom but not of analytical thinking, that I can think > of. > . . . --Bob G." > > Apollo? (I'm thinking of Nietzsche's "Apollinian.") > > > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino > > > 9 > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jun 4 10:12:49 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 16:12:49 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: <84.46cfbb79.2fd23398@aol.com> <005701c568d6$ceecc280$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <009201c5690f$7d36b390$d1d93052@ANNY> >From my night with the language thieves http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=314 I have also proudly featured it on the Corner, thank you Tad, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... Thom - I have a feeling I've exceeded my limit for this month, and I promise to all try to be better and more self-effacing, but I do have a poem based on a misread statement that was sorta interesting. Reading an article about a performance artist, I came across the statement that she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the bear. I thought this was one of the most fascinating ideas I'd ever read. Then I looked again and saw that it actually said she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the heart. This was a territory, I realized, which held no interest whatever for me. But what about that territory where the only map is the map of the bear? I wanted to know more about that...a territory where the wilderness mapped itself. I had been deeply moved by Kurosawa's great movie, Dersu Uzala, where mapmaking becomes a symbol for both exploration and limitation, and I started to feel that I had to know more about the territory mapped only by the bear. This was the poem that came of it. THE MAP OF THE BEAR The only map is the map of the bear. Your best hope is to follow it closely, Closer than dogs. It's engraved with your spoor, You wake in the night to find it partly Charred by the dying fire. The only Map is the map of the bear. Follow It closer than dogs. Your best hope is To read the part engraved below The surface of the fire. Sleepless, You move by night. The only map is The map of the bear. Dogs know, That's why they follow with no hope The dying spoor. You're passing through Fire, you've passed through sleep, Now the only map is the map Of the bear. Now hope gives up Its secrets, now you follow where Dogs won't go, even in sleep. Above, the route's engraved on fire. The only map is the map of the bear. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Thom424 at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 6:28 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... i don't know if someone on this list or another recently posted a poem of his or her own that was inspired by a typo in a sentence that they read in a magazine or newspaper that gave the sentence an entirely different meaning. that said, i'm wondering if anyone on this list has written a poem prompted or inspired by such a typo or a misheard statement?or if you are aware of such poems by others that imaginitively "take off" on such misprints or misheard lines. thanks. feel free to backchannel. thom tammaro moorhead, mn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 10:13:43 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 07:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia In-Reply-To: <003901c56845$825de1b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <20050604141343.4057.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> I can only think that Bush is where he is because he has the right genes, Paglia is probably the same. --- The Old Mole wrote: > Anny the same can be said about George W. Bush. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: New Poetry > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:15 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Paglia > > > I don't know her, I am asking: > > how is it that every/any/body knows her and > every/any/body despises her? And yet she seems > successful? This makes her very interesting to my > eyes. > There was an interesting answer on another list, > something to do with a calculated business, plenty > of knowledge of mass reactions - if it is true I > might not like her. > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to > give birth to a dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 4 10:32:28 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:32:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pure Analyticality / Map of the Bear References: <200506041325.j54DP1CF015438@mail3.atl.registeredsite.com> Message-ID: <005501c56912$3c853da0$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Apollo, yes, maybe.--as god of analytical thinking. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 4 10:34:08 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:34:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pure Analyticality / Map of the Bear References: <200506041325.j54DP1CF015438@mail3.atl.registeredsite.com> <005901c5690d$b64cb960$d1d93052@ANNY> Message-ID: <005c01c56912$77c31a90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hmmm, Mercury, too. Another question: is there a muse of philosophy? The muses are just for the arts, though, and history, right? --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jun 4 10:44:24 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:44:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... In-Reply-To: <005701c568d6$ceecc280$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: I've probably exceeded my poem-posting limit, too. But here's an old one of mine, based on a student typo. It was in a bibliography, and the student meant to type the magazine title *National Wildlife*, but instead came up with *National Mildlife*. That set me to imagining what such a magazine might look like, and what sort of world it would describe. The poem was titled "National Mildlife" until a journal editor asked me to change it, arguing that the jokey title obscured the essential seriousness of the poem. News to me: I had thought it a jokey poem. But then I realized that the editor was right. As often happens, I was fooling around, and surprised myself with the serious theme. . . . The Valley Where We Live A doe stands in the garden, nibbling lettuce we don't care to pick. OK, we say to the sun. Between the deer's legs rabbits walk their awkward way. The valley where we live is steep but not cloistered. Anything mild may enter: rain showers, balloons, snails, dictionaries, timothy, milk. Any born violence soon rises of its own energy and spins off the rim of our horizon. We make up gentle nicknames to their memory: dust devil, hooligan, zigzag, roughhouse. Potatoes turn earth itself sweet, we say, burying our mild dead where we must. We like poplar trees, how they take the quaking wind and calm it with slender semaphore. Sometimes, though, wandering the upper paths, we hear from beyond our valley muffled shouts, insistent chant of engines run uphill. Then the poplars shudder without wind. Then we pace our sheep-cropped lawns meaning to do what ever we have forgotten. Like children standing the first time at a cliff's windy edge we wonder what it is keeps us from leaping. Second Wind. Texas Tech University Press, 1990. ====================================== on 6/4/05 2:26 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: ? Thom - I have a feeling I've exceeded my limit for this month, and I promise to all try to be better and more self-effacing, but I do have a poem based on a misread statement that was sorta interesting. Reading an article about a performance artist, I came across the statement that she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the bear. I thought this was one of the most fascinating ideas I'd ever read. Then I looked again and saw that it actually said she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the heart. This was a territory, I realized, which held no interest whatever for me. But what about that territory where the only map is the map of the bear? I wanted to know more about that...a territory where the wilderness mapped itself. I had been deeply moved by Kurosawa's great movie, Dersu Uzala, where mapmaking becomes a symbol for both exploration and limitation, and I started to feel that I had to know more about the territory mapped only by the bear. This was the poem that came of it. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jun 4 11:07:06 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:07:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: Message-ID: <011201c56917$15ba91c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Looking for poems...David - I love this. It's now one of my favorites among your work. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 10:44 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... I've probably exceeded my poem-posting limit, too. But here's an old one of mine, based on a student typo. It was in a bibliography, and the student meant to type the magazine title *National Wildlife*, but instead came up with *National Mildlife*. That set me to imagining what such a magazine might look like, and what sort of world it would describe. The poem was titled "National Mildlife" until a journal editor asked me to change it, arguing that the jokey title obscured the essential seriousness of the poem. News to me: I had thought it a jokey poem. But then I realized that the editor was right. As often happens, I was fooling around, and surprised myself with the serious theme. . . . The Valley Where We Live A doe stands in the garden, nibbling lettuce we don't care to pick. OK, we say to the sun. Between the deer's legs rabbits walk their awkward way. The valley where we live is steep but not cloistered. Anything mild may enter: rain showers, balloons, snails, dictionaries, timothy, milk. Any born violence soon rises of its own energy and spins off the rim of our horizon. We make up gentle nicknames to their memory: dust devil, hooligan, zigzag, roughhouse. Potatoes turn earth itself sweet, we say, burying our mild dead where we must. We like poplar trees, how they take the quaking wind and calm it with slender semaphore. Sometimes, though, wandering the upper paths, we hear from beyond our valley muffled shouts, insistent chant of engines run uphill. Then the poplars shudder without wind. Then we pace our sheep-cropped lawns meaning to do what ever we have forgotten. Like children standing the first time at a cliff's windy edge we wonder what it is keeps us from leaping. Second Wind. Texas Tech University Press, 1990. ====================================== on 6/4/05 2:26 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: ? Thom - I have a feeling I've exceeded my limit for this month, and I promise to all try to be better and more self-effacing, but I do have a poem based on a misread statement that was sorta interesting. Reading an article about a performance artist, I came across the statement that she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the bear. I thought this was one of the most fascinating ideas I'd ever read. Then I looked again and saw that it actually said she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the heart. This was a territory, I realized, which held no interest whatever for me. But what about that territory where the only map is the map of the bear? I wanted to know more about that...a territory where the wilderness mapped itself. I had been deeply moved by Kurosawa's great movie, Dersu Uzala, where mapmaking becomes a symbol for both exploration and limitation, and I started to feel that I had to know more about the territory mapped only by the bear. This was the poem that came of it. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 4 11:07:20 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 11:07:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <20050604105252.41037.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050604105252.41037.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A1C3A8.40002@ix.netcom.com> Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=7591 P.S. Everyone?! Opposing communism is/was rather an ubiquitous and profitable exercise in the U.S. Paul Murphy wrote: >this list suggests that everyone (US everyone) who >wrote a significant book that opposed Communism + >Adolf Hitler (who also opposed it) is suspect. Who >compiled this list and why has it been posted? PM > >--- Peter Cudmore >wrote: > > > >>A spectacularly US-centric selection >> >>P >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On >>> >>> >>Behalf Of Alphaville >> >> >>>Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 >>>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books >>> >>> >>of the 19th >> >> >>>and 20th Centuries >>> >>>**10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th >>> >>> >>Centuries ** >> >> >>>** THE EDITORS >>>The Assassinated Press >>>May, 29, 2005 ** >>> >>>**Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th >>> >>> >>Centuries >> >> >>>** >>> >>>**1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** >>> >>>**2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - John >>> >>> >>von Neumann >> >> >>>& Oskar Morgenstern ** >>> >>>**3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** >>> >>>**4) Mein Kamp - Adolf Hitler ** >>> >>>**5)Diplomacy - Henry Kissinger ** >>> >>>**6)Eugenics and Race - William Shockley ** >>> >>>**7)A Study Of Communism - J. Edgar Hoover ** >>> >>>**8)Capitalism and Freedom - Milton Friedman ** >>> >>>**9)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow >>> >>> >>Taylor ** >> >> >>>**10)The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl >>> >>> >>Popper ** >> >> >>>**and more... >>>** >>> >>>**11)The Road to Serfdom - Friedrich von Hayek, ** >>> >>>**12)Fountainhead - Ayn Rand ** >>> >>>**13)The Problem of The West - Frederick Jackson >>> >>> >>Turner ** >> >> >>>**14)The Turner Diaries - Andrew MacDonald >>> >>> >>(William Pierce) ** >> >> >>>**15)The Philippines Past and Present - Dean >>> >>> >>Worcester ** >> >> >>>**16)Open Society and Its Enemies - Karl Popper ** >>> >>>**17)Ending the Vietnam War : A History of >>> >>> >>America's >> >> >>>Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam >>> >>> >>War - Henry >> >> >>>Kissinger ** >>> >>>**18)Extermination of the Pequods - George >>> >>> >>Bancroft ** >> >> >>>**19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The >>> >>> >>Bell Curve ** >> >> >>>**20)The Poems of Rudyard Kipling ** >>> >>>**21)Human Action - Ludwig von Mises ** >>> >>>**22)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow >>> >>> >>Taylor ** >> >> >>>**23)Society of Mind - Marvin Minsky ** >>> >>>**24)The Poems of Alfred Tennyson ** >>> >>>**25)Introduction to Operations Research - C. West >>> >>> >>Churchman et al ** >> >> >>>**26)Goedel, Escher, Bach - Douglas Hofstadter ** >>> >>>**27)The Anthropic Cosmological Principle - John >>> >>> >>Barrow & >> >> >>>Frank Tipler ** >>> >>>**28)Countercoup: The Struggle for the Control of >>> >>> >>Iran - >> >> >>>Kermit Roosevelt ** >>> >>>**29The Yemassee - William Gilmore Simms ** >>> >>>**30)Rapture Series - Tim LaHaye ** >>> >>>**31)The Physics of Immortality - Frank Tipler ** >>> >>>**32)Consciousness Explained - Daniel Dennett ** >>> >>>**33)Poems of William Wadsworth Longfellow ** >>> >>>**34)End of Racism - Gunga Dinesh D'Souza ** >>> >>>**35)Courtier To The Crowd: The Life Story Of Ivy >>> >>> >>Lee - Ray >> >> >>>Eldon Hiebert ** >>> >>>**36)Sexual Personae - Camille Paglia ** >>> >>>**37)Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand ** >>> >>>**38)Higher Superstition - Norman Levitt & Paul R. >>> >>> >>Gross ** >> >> >>>**39)None Dare Call It Treason - John Stormer ** >>> >>>**with special honors to Reader's Digest, TV Guide >>> >>> >>and the >> >> >>>Regnery Press ** >>> >>>** >>>** >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > > > >__________________________________ >Discover Yahoo! >Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! >http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 4 11:12:01 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:12:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Typo Set in Stone Message-ID: <1fa.9f3398e.2fd31ec1@aol.com> Typo Set in Stone Isaac Bashevis Singer's headstone corrected 5 years after his death: Noble Laureate changed to "Nobel" Down on his hells, he spite, stammered, gravelled at their feet. How they had made him a whorse's ass. Oh but he was biting his time, one day he'd make mice-meat out of his enemies. Invoke the holey hosts, the vigilant angles. Break the spines of the unread books, their guilt-leaf edges. The pages red in haste, nothing remembered, nothing but the inky strains. All the words strange and the people merely payers. Let bookcases be our ladders, we shall climb out of this pit of ignorance, our dark mines. Owl' Issac, tool ate, you can't give back the ignobel loot, that blasted dynamight, world blown all to heel. God by, farwell. All monuments misspilt, stone trophies above the dread who would give back all the fine flame and honey for an hour in the shade of an ok tree, any tree, just for one day above the dearth, a word that death mated to the things of this good earth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jun 4 11:13:40 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:13:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... In-Reply-To: <011201c56917$15ba91c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 6/4/05 10:07 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: David - I love this. It's now one of my favorites among your work. Tad Richards ------------------------- Thanks, Tad. I guess we can all just keep circulating Sam's generous checks, ad infinitum. . .. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Sat Jun 4 11:14:50 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:14:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pure Analyticality / Map of the Bear / Muse of Philosophy / how many girls? Message-ID: <200506041514.j54FEoLu004142@mail7.atl.registeredsite.com> 9 Anny said, "Mercury, quick silver." Bob said: "Hmmm, Mercury, too. Another question: is there a muse of philosophy? The muses are just for the arts, though, and history, right?" I don't think there is a muse for philosophy. But in her place I would suggest: The oracle at Delphi, who said that Socrates was the wisest man in Greece. Socrates did not believe her and set out through questioning his fellow citizens to find one wiser than himself. He discovered that they believed themselves to possess a wisdom which they did not possess, and at last was forced to admit that he was indeed the wisest man in Greece. While others knew nothing, not realizing they knew nothing, Socrates knew that he knew nothing, thus possessing one item of information more than any other Athenian. And Diotima (Symposium, 204 a - b). The speech of Diotima is a progressive analysis of Socrates' nature. He is an embodiment of the state of the soul which is between knowledge and ignorance in the eternal search for knowledge. Socrates is the truest illustration of the educational impulse. So I would suggest one or other or both of these gals. (I guess I don't really know for certain the sex -- sorry -- of the oracle at Delphi. Does anybody? But it's interesting -- it is to me -- that I would think them both to be female.) By the way: How many girls are on this list? Gregory 9 From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jun 4 11:17:37 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:17:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Erratum" Message-ID: <09dba2069751c1338f5190a166cd1fb0@earthlink.net> Erratum Due to an unfor- gettable manumission this year's crop of fieldhands have been printed in an incorrect position. Practically nothing is where I thought it was and they are included. "Responsible" appears at the beginning of line 8 instead of at the end of line 7, where instead we now read the word "included" (with a small i). The capital r seems to work in either location. "falling back to the vase again like a fountain" appears here like something from a dream, a line that, inadvertantly, has been printed in an incorrect position. --Halvard Johnson Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 4 11:19:10 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:19:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries References: <20050604105252.41037.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> <42A1C3A8.40002@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c56918$c4a9ef90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > P.S. Everyone?! Opposing communism is/was rather an ubiquitous and > profitable exercise in the U.S. It is also something sane people in no way affiliated with their not particularly non-communistic country and its corporations might do for reasons other than making money. With that, I leave New-Politics for New-Poetry. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jun 4 11:20:04 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:20:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spellcheck typo poem Message-ID: If you ever want to crack up an audience, the poem below is a good one for reading aloud in an academic setting. Reads aloud better than on the page, I think. Computer spellcheckers have introduced whole new kinds of typo, of course, when people too quickly click on the wrong word from the Suggested list. Once a student of mine wrote, in an end-of-term self reflection, that she was proud to have "archived" her goals. I rather liked that mistake. Anyway, here's the poem, by slam star Taylor Mali-- THE THE IMPOTENCE OF PROOFREADING Has this ever happened to you? You work very horde on a paper for English clash And then get a very glow raid (like a D or even a D=) and all because you are the word's liverwurst spoiler. Proofreading your peppers is a matter of the the utmost impotence. This is a problem that affects manly, manly students. I myself was such a bed spiller once upon a term that my English teacher in my sophomoric year, Mrs. Myth, said I would never get into a good colleague. And that's all I wanted, just to get into a good colleague. Not just anal community colleague, because I wouldn't be happy at anal community colleague. I needed a place that would offer me intellectual simulation, I really need to be challenged, challenged dentally. I know this makes me sound like a stereo, but I really wanted to go to an ivory legal collegue. So I needed to improvement or gone would be my dream of going to Harvard, Jail, or Prison (in Prison, New Jersey). So I got myself a spell checker and figured I was on Sleazy Street. But there are several missed aches that a spell chukker can't can't catch catch. For instant, if you accidentally leave a word your spell exchequer won't put it in you. And God for billing purposes only you should have serial problems with Tori Spelling your spell Chekhov might replace a word with one you had absolutely no detention of using. Because what do you want it to douch? It only does what you tell it to douche. You're the one with your hand on the mouth going clit, clit, clit. It just goes to show you how embargo one careless clit of the mouth can be. Which reminds me of this one time during my Junior Mint. The teacher read my entire paper on A Sale of Two Titties out loud to all of my assmates. I'm not joking, I'm totally cereal. It was the most humidifying experience of my life, being laughed at pubically. So do yourself a flavor and follow these two Pisces of advice: One: There is no prostitute for careful editing. And three: When it comes to proofreading, the red penis your friend. -- By Taylor Mali www.taylormali.com ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 4 11:22:15 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:22:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: Message-ID: <00be01c56919$30d17760$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Looking for poems...David - I love this. It's now one of my favorites among your work. Tad Richards ------------------------- Thanks, Tad. I guess we can all just keep circulating Sam's generous checks, ad infinitum. . .. I'm beginning to worry about the corrupting power of those checks--I never said anything good about any of Tad's poems until those checks started going to people. Now I'm almost ready to say something good about David's. . . . --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jun 4 11:24:19 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:24:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Erratum" References: <09dba2069751c1338f5190a166cd1fb0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <013101c56919$7cf0c560$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Maybe I'm just in a generous mood this morning. But that's unlikely, since I'm never in a generous mood.. I really like this, too. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 11:17 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] "Erratum" > > Erratum > > Due to an unfor- > gettable manumission > this year's crop of fieldhands > have been printed in an > incorrect position. Practically > nothing is where I thought > it was and they are included. > "Responsible" appears at the > beginning of line 8 instead of > at the end of line 7, > where instead we now read > the word "included" (with a small i). > The capital r seems to work > in either location. "falling back > to the vase again like a fountain" > appears here like something from a dream, > a line that, inadvertantly, has been printed > in an incorrect position. > > --Halvard Johnson > > > Halvard Johnson > halvard at earthlink.net > halvard at gmail.com > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jun 4 11:25:52 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:25:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Erratum" In-Reply-To: <09dba2069751c1338f5190a166cd1fb0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Well, another nice one, Hal. I'm quite liking this little festival of typos, errata, misread words, and the rest. Here's an old one from Charles Simic-- Errata Where it says snow read teeth-marks of a virgin Where it says knife read you passed through my bones like a police-whistle Where it says table read horse Where it says horse read my migrant's bundle Apples are to remain apples Each time a hat appears think of Isaac Newton reading the Old Testament Remove all periods They are scars made by words I couldn't bring myself to say Put a finger over each sunrise it will blind you otherwise That damn ant is still stirring Will there be time left to list all errors to replace all hands guns owls plates all cigars ponds woods and reach that beer-bottle my greatest mistake the word I allowed to be written when I should have shouted her name --Charles Simic on 6/4/05 10:17 AM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote: > > Erratum > > Due to an unfor- > gettable manumission > this year's crop of fieldhands > have been printed in an > incorrect position. Practically > nothing is where I thought > it was and they are included. > "Responsible" appears at the > beginning of line 8 instead of > at the end of line 7, > where instead we now read > the word "included" (with a small i). > The capital r seems to work > in either location. "falling back > to the vase again like a fountain" > appears here like something from a dream, > a line that, inadvertantly, has been printed > in an incorrect position. > > --Halvard Johnson ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 4 11:34:42 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:34:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "Erratum" Message-ID: In a message dated 6/4/2005 11:26:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Here's an old one from Charles Simic-- > > Errata > > You beat me to punch with that one...it's also the last one printed in his collection _Dismantling the Silence_, so it works conceptually, though it would be even better as a tip-in page. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 11:35:49 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <00aa01c56918$c4a9ef90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050604153549.77424.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com> you can leave new politics for new planet if you want --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > P.S. Everyone?! Opposing communism is/was rather > an ubiquitous and > > profitable exercise in the U.S. > > It is also something sane people in no way > affiliated with their not > particularly non-communistic country and its > corporations might do for > reasons other than making money. With that, I leave > New-Politics for > New-Poetry. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 11:41:26 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A1C3A8.40002@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20050604154126.3195.qmail@web40424.mail.yahoo.com> okay, how are books harmful? what a list, more Marx followed by Mein Kampf? surely, someone must have noticed a difference between Marx and Hitler, ie one is literate and the other an asocial yob with a penchant for oration. who sent this nonsense to the list? who cares about the views of some idiots and their silly f***ing lists? you always know when people have hit an intellectual rock bottom, they start to compile lists mind you I started reading 'Sexual Personae' as a result of the list, so maybe it is good to compile them it makes you think about what you are missing ie absolutely nothing PM --- Alphaville wrote: > Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th > Centuries > http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=7591 > > P.S. Everyone?! Opposing communism is/was rather an > ubiquitous and > profitable exercise in the U.S. > > Paul Murphy wrote: > > >this list suggests that everyone (US everyone) who > >wrote a significant book that opposed Communism + > >Adolf Hitler (who also opposed it) is suspect. Who > >compiled this list and why has it been posted? PM > > > >--- Peter Cudmore > >wrote: > > > > > > > >>A spectacularly US-centric selection > >> > >>P > >> > >> > >> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On > >>> > >>> > >>Behalf Of Alphaville > >> > >> > >>>Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 > >>>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &Views > >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books > >>> > >>> > >>of the 19th > >> > >> > >>>and 20th Centuries > >>> > >>>**10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th > >>> > >>> > >>Centuries ** > >> > >> > >>>** THE EDITORS > >>>The Assassinated Press > >>>May, 29, 2005 ** > >>> > >>>**Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th > >>> > >>> > >>Centuries > >> > >> > >>>** > >>> > >>>**1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** > >>> > >>>**2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - John > >>> > >>> > >>von Neumann > >> > >> > >>>& Oskar Morgenstern ** > >>> > >>>**3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** > >>> > >>>**4) Mein Kamp - Adolf Hitler ** > >>> > >>>**5)Diplomacy - Henry Kissinger ** > >>> > >>>**6)Eugenics and Race - William Shockley ** > >>> > >>>**7)A Study Of Communism - J. Edgar Hoover ** > >>> > >>>**8)Capitalism and Freedom - Milton Friedman ** > >>> > >>>**9)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow > >>> > >>> > >>Taylor ** > >> > >> > >>>**10)The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl > >>> > >>> > >>Popper ** > >> > >> > >>>**and more... > >>>** > >>> > >>>**11)The Road to Serfdom - Friedrich von Hayek, > ** > >>> > >>>**12)Fountainhead - Ayn Rand ** > >>> > >>>**13)The Problem of The West - Frederick Jackson > >>> > >>> > >>Turner ** > >> > >> > >>>**14)The Turner Diaries - Andrew MacDonald > >>> > >>> > >>(William Pierce) ** > >> > >> > >>>**15)The Philippines Past and Present - Dean > >>> > >>> > >>Worcester ** > >> > >> > >>>**16)Open Society and Its Enemies - Karl Popper > ** > >>> > >>>**17)Ending the Vietnam War : A History of > >>> > >>> > >>America's > >> > >> > >>>Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam > >>> > >>> > >>War - Henry > >> > >> > >>>Kissinger ** > >>> > >>>**18)Extermination of the Pequods - George > >>> > >>> > >>Bancroft ** > >> > >> > >>>**19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The > >>> > >>> > >>Bell Curve ** > >> > >> > >>>**20)The Poems of Rudyard Kipling ** > >>> > >>>**21)Human Action - Ludwig von Mises ** > >>> > >>>**22)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow > >>> > >>> > >>Taylor ** > >> > >> > >>>**23)Society of Mind - Marvin Minsky ** > >>> > >>>**24)The Poems of Alfred Tennyson ** > >>> > >>>**25)Introduction to Operations Research - C. > West > >>> > >>> > >>Churchman et al ** > >> > >> > >>>**26)Goedel, Escher, Bach - Douglas Hofstadter ** > >>> > >>>**27)The Anthropic Cosmological Principle - John > >>> > >>> > >>Barrow & > >> > >> > >>>Frank Tipler ** > >>> > >>>**28)Countercoup: The Struggle for the Control of > >>> > >>> > >>Iran - > >> > >> > >>>Kermit Roosevelt ** > >>> > >>>**29The Yemassee - William Gilmore Simms ** > >>> > >>>**30)Rapture Series - Tim LaHaye ** > >>> > >>>**31)The Physics of Immortality - Frank Tipler ** > >>> > >>>**32)Consciousness Explained - Daniel Dennett ** > >>> > >>>**33)Poems of William Wadsworth Longfellow ** > >>> > === message truncated === __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 4 11:42:53 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 11:42:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <20050604105252.41037.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050604105252.41037.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A1CBFD.2080803@ix.netcom.com> Most did not write anti-communist books. Knee jerk, it just feels like they had Reviewing the list, the following did not write anti-communists books: Bernays, von Neumann(though was hell bent on sacrificing 40 million Americans with a first nuclear strike against the Soviets because the Kuhn's took his big bright banker's- son Hungarian bedroom for 8 months. Also his best jammies. Morgenstern. Shockley He was just a racist who hated African Americans with a blind hysteria. Frederick Winslow Taylor he preferred brutalizing immmigrant workers. Frederick Jackson Turner. Bill Pierce This is the only poetry list I know of where Pierce wouldn't want to kill every race mixer on it. Dean Worcester Concentrated on tormenting little brown people. George Bancroft Anti-savage. Herrnstein and Murray Black people make them nervous. Rudyard Kipling mainenance of Empyre. Marvin Minsky Pure pseudoscience "The brain is a meat machine." Tennyson "Kip" ditto. Churchman. Hofstadter. Barrow. Tipler. Simms Every time a kill an Indian child it makes me a little nostalgic. Tim LaHaye Is the Rapture anti-communist? Ask Tom DeLay. Frank Tipler Fear not. We're all coming back as angels. And I'm a physicist who controls tens of millions of dollars in research money so I should know. Daniel Dennett Where in my brain is the commie synapse? Longfellow Yikes. Gunga Dinesh. Ivy Lee. Paglia She may BE a commie. Levitt and Gross. FIZZ Paul Murphy wrote: >this list suggests that everyone (US everyone) who >wrote a significant book that opposed Communism + >Adolf Hitler (who also opposed it) is suspect. Who >compiled this list and why has it been posted? PM > >--- Peter Cudmore >wrote: > > > >>A spectacularly US-centric selection >> >>P >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On >>> >>> >>Behalf Of Alphaville >> >> >>>Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 >>>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books >>> >>> >>of the 19th >> >> >>>and 20th Centuries >>> >>>**10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th >>> >>> >>Centuries ** >> >> >>>** THE EDITORS >>>The Assassinated Press >>>May, 29, 2005 ** >>> >>>**Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th >>> >>> >>Centuries >> >> >>>** >>> >>>**1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** >>> >>>**2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - John >>> >>> >>von Neumann >> >> >>>& Oskar Morgenstern ** >>> >>>**3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** >>> >>>**4) Mein Kamp - Adolf Hitler ** >>> >>>**5)Diplomacy - Henry Kissinger ** >>> >>>**6)Eugenics and Race - William Shockley ** >>> >>>**7)A Study Of Communism - J. Edgar Hoover ** >>> >>>**8)Capitalism and Freedom - Milton Friedman ** >>> >>>**9)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow >>> >>> >>Taylor ** >> >> >>>**10)The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl >>> >>> >>Popper ** >> >> >>>**and more... >>>** >>> >>>**11)The Road to Serfdom - Friedrich von Hayek, ** >>> >>>**12)Fountainhead - Ayn Rand ** >>> >>>**13)The Problem of The West - Frederick Jackson >>> >>> >>Turner ** >> >> >>>**14)The Turner Diaries - Andrew MacDonald >>> >>> >>(William Pierce) ** >> >> >>>**15)The Philippines Past and Present - Dean >>> >>> >>Worcester ** >> >> >>>**16)Open Society and Its Enemies - Karl Popper ** >>> >>>**17)Ending the Vietnam War : A History of >>> >>> >>America's >> >> >>>Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam >>> >>> >>War - Henry >> >> >>>Kissinger ** >>> >>>**18)Extermination of the Pequods - George >>> >>> >>Bancroft ** >> >> >>>**19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The >>> >>> >>Bell Curve ** >> >> >>>**20)The Poems of Rudyard Kipling ** >>> >>>**21)Human Action - Ludwig von Mises ** >>> >>>**22)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow >>> >>> >>Taylor ** >> >> >>>**23)Society of Mind - Marvin Minsky ** >>> >>>**24)The Poems of Alfred Tennyson ** >>> >>>**25)Introduction to Operations Research - C. West >>> >>> >>Churchman et al ** >> >> >>>**26)Goedel, Escher, Bach - Douglas Hofstadter ** >>> >>>**27)The Anthropic Cosmological Principle - John >>> >>> >>Barrow & >> >> >>>Frank Tipler ** >>> >>>**28)Countercoup: The Struggle for the Control of >>> >>> >>Iran - >> >> >>>Kermit Roosevelt ** >>> >>>**29The Yemassee - William Gilmore Simms ** >>> >>>**30)Rapture Series - Tim LaHaye ** >>> >>>**31)The Physics of Immortality - Frank Tipler ** >>> >>>**32)Consciousness Explained - Daniel Dennett ** >>> >>>**33)Poems of William Wadsworth Longfellow ** >>> >>>**34)End of Racism - Gunga Dinesh D'Souza ** >>> >>>**35)Courtier To The Crowd: The Life Story Of Ivy >>> >>> >>Lee - Ray >> >> >>>Eldon Hiebert ** >>> >>>**36)Sexual Personae - Camille Paglia ** >>> >>>**37)Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand ** >>> >>>**38)Higher Superstition - Norman Levitt & Paul R. >>> >>> >>Gross ** >> >> >>>**39)None Dare Call It Treason - John Stormer ** >>> >>>**with special honors to Reader's Digest, TV Guide >>> >>> >>and the >> >> >>>Regnery Press ** >>> >>>** >>>** >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > > > >__________________________________ >Discover Yahoo! >Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! >http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 4 11:48:09 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 11:48:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <00aa01c56918$c4a9ef90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <20050604105252.41037.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> <42A1C3A8.40002@ix.netcom.com> <00aa01c56918$c4a9ef90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42A1CD39.3030806@ix.netcom.com> ! You obviously have not read the books on the list. Sane. Hoover's book sane. Shockley's book sane! FIZZ Bob Grumman wrote: >> P.S. Everyone?! Opposing communism is/was rather an ubiquitous and >> profitable exercise in the U.S. > > > It is also something sane people in no way affiliated with their not > particularly non-communistic country and its corporations might do for > reasons other than making money. With that, I leave New-Politics for > New-Poetry. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jun 4 11:50:53 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:50:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman In-Reply-To: <006b01c568da$184f3310$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 6/4/05 2:50 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: True? Is Berryman so hot these days? Is Lowell so cold? And why do we feel such compulsion to stick thermometers up the asses of our recently dead? Tad Richards www.opus40.org _______________________________________________ Bishop's indisputably hot these days--her reputation and exposure could hardly be higher, I think. And since Lowell's death, naturally the only direction his reputation could move in was down. . . . Perhaps temporarily. But I also wonder about Berryman--I've not gotten the notion, perusing the anthologies, that his stock is on the rise, particularly. A friend of mine did his dissertation on Berryman about 20 years ago, and by the time he finished, he was already lamenting that he'd hitched his wagon to a dying star. Maybe things have changed since then, but I haven't noticed it. I wonder if perhaps Berryman is currently more important to the language-centered poets than to the *Hudson Review* crowd? As always, it can be instructive to look at anthologies from previous decades: how confident readers, editors, and teachers typically are that the poems of Sherwood R. Plattimud or Augustus Wraithworthe will be read eternally, alongside Shakespeare and Chaucer. . . . A star that *should* be rising more, in my opinion, is Roethke's. I've been re-reading him lately, and marveling at how much his poetry holds up. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 11:53:48 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A1CBFD.2080803@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20050604155348.9960.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> I couldn't understand the presence of the Hofstadter book? this book is an application of Goedel's mathematical theories to painting of Escher and music of Bach? Generally the list contains right of centre authors. the pattern evoked therein didn't make sense to me apart from merely listing the most in yer face Social Darwinists a la Ayn Rand and Adolf Hitler. the other list was more cogent, merely list the enemies of conservatism (although Hitler may be more of a friend than an enemy of that conservatism). walk a narrow tightrope between extremes (which is really impossible, isn't it? to be so purely politically correct? just think of all those conservatives together trying not to have an erroneous right or left wing extreme thought... of course lists are built on exclusion too, there were surely more harmful books than this? Sir Frank Kitson 'Low Intensity Operations'? --- Alphaville wrote: > Most did not write anti-communist books. Knee jerk, > it just feels like > they had > > Reviewing the list, the following did not write > anti-communists books: > Bernays, von Neumann(though was hell bent on > sacrificing 40 million > Americans with a first nuclear strike against the > Soviets because the > Kuhn's took his big bright banker's- son Hungarian > bedroom for 8 months. > Also his best jammies. Morgenstern. Shockley He was > just a racist who > hated African Americans with a blind hysteria. > Frederick Winslow Taylor > he preferred brutalizing immmigrant workers. > Frederick Jackson Turner. > Bill Pierce This is the only poetry list I know of > where Pierce wouldn't > want to kill every race mixer on it. Dean Worcester > Concentrated on > tormenting little brown people. George Bancroft > Anti-savage. Herrnstein > and Murray Black people make them nervous. Rudyard > Kipling mainenance of > Empyre. Marvin Minsky Pure pseudoscience "The brain > is a meat machine." > Tennyson "Kip" ditto. Churchman. Hofstadter. Barrow. > Tipler. Simms Every > time a kill an Indian child it makes me a little > nostalgic. Tim LaHaye > Is the Rapture anti-communist? Ask Tom DeLay. Frank > Tipler Fear not. > We're all coming back as angels. And I'm a physicist > who controls tens > of millions of dollars in research money so I should > know. Daniel > Dennett Where in my brain is the commie synapse? > Longfellow Yikes. Gunga > Dinesh. Ivy Lee. Paglia She may BE a commie. Levitt > and Gross. FIZZ > > > > Paul Murphy wrote: > > >this list suggests that everyone (US everyone) who > >wrote a significant book that opposed Communism + > >Adolf Hitler (who also opposed it) is suspect. Who > >compiled this list and why has it been posted? PM > > > >--- Peter Cudmore > >wrote: > > > > > > > >>A spectacularly US-centric selection > >> > >>P > >> > >> > >> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On > >>> > >>> > >>Behalf Of Alphaville > >> > >> > >>>Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 > >>>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &Views > >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books > >>> > >>> > >>of the 19th > >> > >> > >>>and 20th Centuries > >>> > >>>**10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th > >>> > >>> > >>Centuries ** > >> > >> > >>>** THE EDITORS > >>>The Assassinated Press > >>>May, 29, 2005 ** > >>> > >>>**Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th > >>> > >>> > >>Centuries > >> > >> > >>>** > >>> > >>>**1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** > >>> > >>>**2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - John > >>> > >>> > >>von Neumann > >> > >> > >>>& Oskar Morgenstern ** > >>> > >>>**3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** > >>> > >>>**4) Mein Kamp - Adolf Hitler ** > >>> > >>>**5)Diplomacy - Henry Kissinger ** > >>> > >>>**6)Eugenics and Race - William Shockley ** > >>> > >>>**7)A Study Of Communism - J. Edgar Hoover ** > >>> > >>>**8)Capitalism and Freedom - Milton Friedman ** > >>> > >>>**9)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow > >>> > >>> > >>Taylor ** > >> > >> > >>>**10)The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl > >>> > >>> > >>Popper ** > >> > >> > >>>**and more... > >>>** > >>> > >>>**11)The Road to Serfdom - Friedrich von Hayek, > ** > >>> > >>>**12)Fountainhead - Ayn Rand ** > >>> > >>>**13)The Problem of The West - Frederick Jackson > >>> > >>> > >>Turner ** > >> > >> > >>>**14)The Turner Diaries - Andrew MacDonald > >>> > >>> > >>(William Pierce) ** > >> > >> > >>>**15)The Philippines Past and Present - Dean > >>> > >>> > >>Worcester ** > >> > >> > >>>**16)Open Society and Its Enemies - Karl Popper > ** > >>> > >>>**17)Ending the Vietnam War : A History of > >>> > >>> > >>America's > >> > >> > >>>Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam > >>> > >>> > >>War - Henry > >> > >> > >>>Kissinger ** > >>> > >>>**18)Extermination of the Pequods - George > >>> > >>> > >>Bancroft ** > >> > >> > >>>**19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The > >>> > >>> > >>Bell Curve ** > >> > >> > >>>**20)The Poems of Rudyard Kipling ** > >>> > >>>**21)Human Action - Ludwig von Mises ** > >>> > >>>**22)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow > >>> > >>> > >>Taylor ** > >> > >> > >>>**23)Society of Mind - Marvin Minsky ** > >>> > === message truncated === __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 4 11:56:02 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:56:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries References: <20050604153549.77424.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cf01c5691d$eb20a380$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > you can leave new politics for new planet if you want Good one, Paul. And quite in keeping with the purge-happy mentality of you and CP. --Bob G. From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 11:59:39 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <00cf01c5691d$eb20a380$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050604155939.10754.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> you're being paranoid, I was only making a shallow joke --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > you can leave new politics for new planet if you > want > > Good one, Paul. And quite in keeping with the > purge-happy mentality of you > and CP. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 4 11:58:49 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 11:58:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <20050604155348.9960.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050604155348.9960.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A1CFB9.6040908@ix.netcom.com> Murder comes in many guises. Deep vindication of all those 'defense' engineers if only that's what they were. Excellent! You're so right. I'll add it. FIZZ Paul Murphy wrote: >I couldn't understand the presence of the Hofstadter >book? this book is an application of Goedel's >mathematical theories to painting of Escher and music >of Bach? Generally the list contains right of centre >authors. the pattern evoked therein didn't make sense >to me apart from merely listing the most in yer face >Social Darwinists a la Ayn Rand and Adolf Hitler. the >other list was more cogent, merely list the enemies of >conservatism (although Hitler may be more of a friend >than an enemy of that conservatism). walk a narrow >tightrope between extremes (which is really >impossible, isn't it? to be so purely politically >correct? just think of all those conservatives >together trying not to have an erroneous right or left >wing extreme thought... >of course lists are built on exclusion too, there were >surely more harmful books than this? >Sir Frank Kitson 'Low Intensity Operations'? > > >--- Alphaville wrote: > > > >>Most did not write anti-communist books. Knee jerk, >>it just feels like >>they had >> >>Reviewing the list, the following did not write >>anti-communists books: >>Bernays, von Neumann(though was hell bent on >>sacrificing 40 million >>Americans with a first nuclear strike against the >>Soviets because the >>Kuhn's took his big bright banker's- son Hungarian >>bedroom for 8 months. >>Also his best jammies. Morgenstern. Shockley He was >>just a racist who >>hated African Americans with a blind hysteria. >>Frederick Winslow Taylor >>he preferred brutalizing immmigrant workers. >>Frederick Jackson Turner. >>Bill Pierce This is the only poetry list I know of >>where Pierce wouldn't >>want to kill every race mixer on it. Dean Worcester >>Concentrated on >>tormenting little brown people. George Bancroft >>Anti-savage. Herrnstein >>and Murray Black people make them nervous. Rudyard >>Kipling mainenance of >>Empyre. Marvin Minsky Pure pseudoscience "The brain >>is a meat machine." >>Tennyson "Kip" ditto. Churchman. Hofstadter. Barrow. >>Tipler. Simms Every >>time a kill an Indian child it makes me a little >>nostalgic. Tim LaHaye >>Is the Rapture anti-communist? Ask Tom DeLay. Frank >>Tipler Fear not. >>We're all coming back as angels. And I'm a physicist >>who controls tens >>of millions of dollars in research money so I should >>know. Daniel >>Dennett Where in my brain is the commie synapse? >>Longfellow Yikes. Gunga >>Dinesh. Ivy Lee. Paglia She may BE a commie. Levitt >>and Gross. FIZZ >> >> >> >>Paul Murphy wrote: >> >> >> >>>this list suggests that everyone (US everyone) who >>>wrote a significant book that opposed Communism + >>>Adolf Hitler (who also opposed it) is suspect. Who >>>compiled this list and why has it been posted? PM >>> >>>--- Peter Cudmore >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>A spectacularly US-centric selection >>>> >>>>P >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Behalf Of Alphaville >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 >>>>>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>>>> >>>>> >>&Views >> >> >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>of the 19th >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>and 20th Centuries >>>>> >>>>>**10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Centuries ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>** THE EDITORS >>>>>The Assassinated Press >>>>>May, 29, 2005 ** >>>>> >>>>>**Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Centuries >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>** >>>>> >>>>>**1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** >>>>> >>>>>**2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - John >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>von Neumann >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>& Oskar Morgenstern ** >>>>> >>>>>**3)Psychological Warfare - Paul Linebarger ** >>>>> >>>>>**4) Mein Kamp - Adolf Hitler ** >>>>> >>>>>**5)Diplomacy - Henry Kissinger ** >>>>> >>>>>**6)Eugenics and Race - William Shockley ** >>>>> >>>>>**7)A Study Of Communism - J. Edgar Hoover ** >>>>> >>>>>**8)Capitalism and Freedom - Milton Friedman ** >>>>> >>>>>**9)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Taylor ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>**10)The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Popper ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>**and more... >>>>>** >>>>> >>>>>**11)The Road to Serfdom - Friedrich von Hayek, >>>>> >>>>> >>** >> >> >>>>>**12)Fountainhead - Ayn Rand ** >>>>> >>>>>**13)The Problem of The West - Frederick Jackson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Turner ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>**14)The Turner Diaries - Andrew MacDonald >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>(William Pierce) ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>**15)The Philippines Past and Present - Dean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Worcester ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>**16)Open Society and Its Enemies - Karl Popper >>>>> >>>>> >>** >> >> >>>>>**17)Ending the Vietnam War : A History of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>America's >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>War - Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Kissinger ** >>>>> >>>>>**18)Extermination of the Pequods - George >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Bancroft ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>**19)The Bell Curve - Herrnstein and Murray - The >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Bell Curve ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>**20)The Poems of Rudyard Kipling ** >>>>> >>>>>**21)Human Action - Ludwig von Mises ** >>>>> >>>>>**22)Scientific Management - Frederick Winslow >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Taylor ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>**23)Society of Mind - Marvin Minsky ** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >=== message truncated === > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! Mail Mobile >Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. >http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From vireo.nefer at gmail.com Sat Jun 4 11:59:54 2005 From: vireo.nefer at gmail.com (Vireo Nefer) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:59:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Muses Message-ID: <464e4688050604085928568a9c@mail.gmail.com> Calliope: heroic/epic poetry and literature, eloquence in writing and speech. Erato: romantic and erotic poetry, mime. Clio: history. Euterpe: lyric poetry and music. Terpsichore: dance and choral song. Polyhymnia: sacred songs, sacred poetry, storytelling. Urania: astronomy, metaphysics. Melpomene: elegies, tragedies. Thalia: comedy. i feel that Urania could certainly handle philosophy. Vireo -- AIM: vireonefer LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=vireoibis VireoNyx Publications: http://www.vireonyxpub.org INK: http://www.inkemetic.org From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 4 12:03:45 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 12:03:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman References: Message-ID: <00e601c5691e$fd15d910$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, BerrymanI agree with David (hey, I'm just back from a driving-filled long trip and I hate driving, so I guess I've gone a bit agreeable do to weak-mindedness). The only difference between Lowell and Berryman of late seems to me that Lowell is constantly being referred to as losing his reputation whereas Berryman is not often referred to in any way. I don't think he had a book on the moron list (hey, I'm recovering) of influential books the American Academy of Poets has at its site. If he does, I'm pretty sure I came across something like that that did not mention him. Bishop is riding high because of feminism--not that she wasn't a good poet, but I don't see her as being near Lowell or Berryman, and I rate both lower than Roethke. Note: these are passing opinions, not invitations for debate. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 11:50 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman on 6/4/05 2:50 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: True? Is Berryman so hot these days? Is Lowell so cold? And why do we feel such compulsion to stick thermometers up the asses of our recently dead? Tad Richards www.opus40.org _______________________________________________ Bishop's indisputably hot these days--her reputation and exposure could hardly be higher, I think. And since Lowell's death, naturally the only direction his reputation could move in was down. . . . Perhaps temporarily. But I also wonder about Berryman--I've not gotten the notion, perusing the anthologies, that his stock is on the rise, particularly. A friend of mine did his dissertation on Berryman about 20 years ago, and by the time he finished, he was already lamenting that he'd hitched his wagon to a dying star. Maybe things have changed since then, but I haven't noticed it. I wonder if perhaps Berryman is currently more important to the language-centered poets than to the *Hudson Review* crowd? As always, it can be instructive to look at anthologies from previous decades: how confident readers, editors, and teachers typically are that the poems of Sherwood R. Plattimud or Augustus Wraithworthe will be read eternally, alongside Shakespeare and Chaucer. . . . A star that *should* be rising more, in my opinion, is Roethke's. I've been re-reading him lately, and marveling at how much his poetry holds up. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 12:06:34 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A1CFB9.6040908@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20050604160634.12273.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> > Murder comes in many guises. Deep vindication of all > those 'defense' engineers if only that's what they > were. > f***, you must know what this means but it beats me > > > > Excellent! You're so right. I'll add it. FIZZ > and so you should. by the way, I haven't read it either... > > Paul Murphy wrote: > > >I couldn't understand the presence of the > Hofstadter > >book? this book is an application of Goedel's > >mathematical theories to painting of Escher and > music > >of Bach? Generally the list contains right of > centre > >authors. the pattern evoked therein didn't make > sense > >to me apart from merely listing the most in yer > face > >Social Darwinists a la Ayn Rand and Adolf Hitler. > the > >other list was more cogent, merely list the enemies > of > >conservatism (although Hitler may be more of a > friend > >than an enemy of that conservatism). walk a narrow > >tightrope between extremes (which is really > >impossible, isn't it? to be so purely politically > >correct? just think of all those conservatives > >together trying not to have an erroneous right or > left > >wing extreme thought... > >of course lists are built on exclusion too, there > were > >surely more harmful books than this? > >Sir Frank Kitson 'Low Intensity Operations'? > > > > > >--- Alphaville wrote: > > > > > > > >>Most did not write anti-communist books. Knee > jerk, > >>it just feels like > >>they had > >> > >>Reviewing the list, the following did not write > >>anti-communists books: > >>Bernays, von Neumann(though was hell bent on > >>sacrificing 40 million > >>Americans with a first nuclear strike against the > >>Soviets because the > >>Kuhn's took his big bright banker's- son Hungarian > >>bedroom for 8 months. > >>Also his best jammies. Morgenstern. Shockley He > was > >>just a racist who > >>hated African Americans with a blind hysteria. > >>Frederick Winslow Taylor > >>he preferred brutalizing immmigrant workers. > >>Frederick Jackson Turner. > >>Bill Pierce This is the only poetry list I know of > >>where Pierce wouldn't > >>want to kill every race mixer on it. Dean > Worcester > >>Concentrated on > >>tormenting little brown people. George Bancroft > >>Anti-savage. Herrnstein > >>and Murray Black people make them nervous. Rudyard > >>Kipling mainenance of > >>Empyre. Marvin Minsky Pure pseudoscience "The > brain > >>is a meat machine." > >>Tennyson "Kip" ditto. Churchman. Hofstadter. > Barrow. > >>Tipler. Simms Every > >>time a kill an Indian child it makes me a little > >>nostalgic. Tim LaHaye > >>Is the Rapture anti-communist? Ask Tom DeLay. > Frank > >>Tipler Fear not. > >>We're all coming back as angels. And I'm a > physicist > >>who controls tens > >>of millions of dollars in research money so I > should > >>know. Daniel > >>Dennett Where in my brain is the commie synapse? > >>Longfellow Yikes. Gunga > >>Dinesh. Ivy Lee. Paglia She may BE a commie. > Levitt > >>and Gross. FIZZ > >> > >> > >> > >>Paul Murphy wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>this list suggests that everyone (US everyone) > who > >>>wrote a significant book that opposed Communism + > >>>Adolf Hitler (who also opposed it) is suspect. > Who > >>>compiled this list and why has it been posted? > PM > >>> > >>>--- Peter Cudmore > > >>>wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>A spectacularly US-centric selection > >>>> > >>>>P > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>-----Original Message----- > >>>>>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>>>>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>Behalf Of Alphaville > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 > >>>>>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>&Views > >> > >> > >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful > Books > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>of the 19th > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>and 20th Centuries > >>>>> > >>>>>**10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>Centuries ** > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>** THE EDITORS > >>>>>The Assassinated Press > >>>>>May, 29, 2005 ** > >>>>> > >>>>>**Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>Centuries > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>** > >>>>> > >>>>>**1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** > >>>>> > >>>>>**2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - > John > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>von Neumann > >>>> > >>>> > === message truncated === __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 4 12:22:36 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 12:22:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries References: <20050604155939.10754.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010001c56921$a140e870$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > you're being paranoid, I was only making a shallow > joke Not paranoid since no fear was involved, but possibly error since I can't quite place you on the political spectrum but have vaguely put you with CP and the agitprop dolts. Anyway, congratulations--here I am, still at New-Politics. --Bob G. > --- Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> >> > you can leave new politics for new planet if you >> want >> >> Good one, Paul. And quite in keeping with the >> purge-happy mentality of you >> and CP. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail Mobile > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 4 12:22:04 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:22:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <20050604160634.12273.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050604160634.12273.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A1D52C.2000402@ix.netcom.com> You're a smart guy. But we all bring different tools to these texts. I did hint at it in an earlier email to Rosie. Right now, my brother is bringing his kids over. I was so indiscreet as to tell them that I had never seen Star Wars, so they are bringing it over for me to watch with them. "Its awesome. Its awesome," they keep telling me. They also want me to make them one of their favorite desserts---icebox cake. FIZZ Paul Murphy wrote: >>Murder comes in many guises. Deep vindication of all >>those 'defense' engineers if only that's what they >>were. >> >> >> >f***, you must know what this means but it beats me > > >> >> >>Excellent! You're so right. I'll add it. FIZZ >>and so you should. by the way, I haven't read it >> >> >either... > > >>Paul Murphy wrote: >> >> >> >>>I couldn't understand the presence of the >>> >>> >>Hofstadter >> >> >>>book? this book is an application of Goedel's >>>mathematical theories to painting of Escher and >>> >>> >>music >> >> >>>of Bach? Generally the list contains right of >>> >>> >>centre >> >> >>>authors. the pattern evoked therein didn't make >>> >>> >>sense >> >> >>>to me apart from merely listing the most in yer >>> >>> >>face >> >> >>>Social Darwinists a la Ayn Rand and Adolf Hitler. >>> >>> >>the >> >> >>>other list was more cogent, merely list the enemies >>> >>> >>of >> >> >>>conservatism (although Hitler may be more of a >>> >>> >>friend >> >> >>>than an enemy of that conservatism). walk a narrow >>>tightrope between extremes (which is really >>>impossible, isn't it? to be so purely politically >>>correct? just think of all those conservatives >>>together trying not to have an erroneous right or >>> >>> >>left >> >> >>>wing extreme thought... >>>of course lists are built on exclusion too, there >>> >>> >>were >> >> >>>surely more harmful books than this? >>>Sir Frank Kitson 'Low Intensity Operations'? >>> >>> >>>--- Alphaville wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Most did not write anti-communist books. Knee >>>> >>>> >>jerk, >> >> >>>>it just feels like >>>>they had >>>> >>>>Reviewing the list, the following did not write >>>>anti-communists books: >>>>Bernays, von Neumann(though was hell bent on >>>>sacrificing 40 million >>>>Americans with a first nuclear strike against the >>>>Soviets because the >>>>Kuhn's took his big bright banker's- son Hungarian >>>>bedroom for 8 months. >>>>Also his best jammies. Morgenstern. Shockley He >>>> >>>> >>was >> >> >>>>just a racist who >>>>hated African Americans with a blind hysteria. >>>>Frederick Winslow Taylor >>>>he preferred brutalizing immmigrant workers. >>>>Frederick Jackson Turner. >>>>Bill Pierce This is the only poetry list I know of >>>>where Pierce wouldn't >>>>want to kill every race mixer on it. Dean >>>> >>>> >>Worcester >> >> >>>>Concentrated on >>>>tormenting little brown people. George Bancroft >>>>Anti-savage. Herrnstein >>>>and Murray Black people make them nervous. Rudyard >>>>Kipling mainenance of >>>>Empyre. Marvin Minsky Pure pseudoscience "The >>>> >>>> >>brain >> >> >>>>is a meat machine." >>>>Tennyson "Kip" ditto. Churchman. Hofstadter. >>>> >>>> >>Barrow. >> >> >>>>Tipler. Simms Every >>>>time a kill an Indian child it makes me a little >>>>nostalgic. Tim LaHaye >>>>Is the Rapture anti-communist? Ask Tom DeLay. >>>> >>>> >>Frank >> >> >>>>Tipler Fear not. >>>>We're all coming back as angels. And I'm a >>>> >>>> >>physicist >> >> >>>>who controls tens >>>>of millions of dollars in research money so I >>>> >>>> >>should >> >> >>>>know. Daniel >>>>Dennett Where in my brain is the commie synapse? >>>>Longfellow Yikes. Gunga >>>>Dinesh. Ivy Lee. Paglia She may BE a commie. >>>> >>>> >>Levitt >> >> >>>>and Gross. FIZZ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Paul Murphy wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>this list suggests that everyone (US everyone) >>>>> >>>>> >>who >> >> >>>>>wrote a significant book that opposed Communism + >>>>>Adolf Hitler (who also opposed it) is suspect. >>>>> >>>>> >>Who >> >> >>>>>compiled this list and why has it been posted? >>>>> >>>>> >>PM >> >> >>>>>--- Peter Cudmore >>>>> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>A spectacularly US-centric selection >>>>>> >>>>>>P >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Behalf Of Alphaville >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 >>>>>>>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>&Views >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>Books >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>of the 19th >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>and 20th Centuries >>>>>>> >>>>>>>**10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Centuries ** >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>** THE EDITORS >>>>>>>The Assassinated Press >>>>>>>May, 29, 2005 ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>>**Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Centuries >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>** >>>>>>> >>>>>>>**1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>>**2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>John >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>von Neumann >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >=== message truncated === > > > > >__________________________________ >Discover Yahoo! >Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! >http://discover.yahoo.com/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 4 12:23:42 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 12:23:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Muses References: <464e4688050604085928568a9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010301c56921$c6297490$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Calliope: heroic/epic poetry and literature, eloquence in writing and > speech. > Erato: romantic and erotic poetry, mime. > Clio: history. > Euterpe: lyric poetry and music. > Terpsichore: dance and choral song. > Polyhymnia: sacred songs, sacred poetry, storytelling. > Urania: astronomy, metaphysics. > Melpomene: elegies, tragedies. > Thalia: comedy. > > i feel that Urania could certainly handle philosophy. > > Vireo Yes, indeed. Thalia could handle analytical thinking, too, it now strikes me. --Bob G. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 4 12:24:52 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:24:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <010001c56921$a140e870$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <20050604155939.10754.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> <010001c56921$a140e870$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42A1D5D4.4090302@ix.netcom.com> and grateful to be counted among them. FIZZ Bob Grumman wrote: >> you're being paranoid, I was only making a shallow >> joke > > > Not paranoid since no fear was involved, but possibly error since I > can't quite place you on the political spectrum but have vaguely put > you with CP and the agitprop dolts. Anyway, congratulations--here I > am, still at New-Politics. > > --Bob G. > > > >> --- Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> > you can leave new politics for new planet if you >>> want >>> >>> Good one, Paul. And quite in keeping with the >>> purge-happy mentality of you >>> and CP. >>> >>> --Bob G. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Yahoo! Mail Mobile >> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. >> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Jun 4 12:30:30 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 11:30:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books Message-ID: Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry Books (CCCP Books for short!) will be soon re-releasing, in lovely editions, the following two collections: The Miseries of Poetry: Traductions from the Greek, traduced by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson (originally published by Skanky Possum Press) and Dear Lacan: An Analysis in Correspondence, by Jaques Debrot, Jacques Lacan, and Jacques Alain-Miller (originally published by Oasis Press) Both books carry brief forwards by Slavoj Zizek. Ordering information can be obtained by contacting: Lesley Nolan Administrator, Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry c/o Director's Office The Fitzwilliam Museum Trumpington Street CAMBRIDGE CB2 1RB lan22 at can.ac.uk Tel: 01223 332922 Fax: 01223 332923 Kent From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 4 12:32:18 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 12:32:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries References: <20050604160634.12273.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> <42A1D52C.2000402@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <010f01c56922$fa2ffa60$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alphaville" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries > > > You're a smart guy. But we all bring different tools to these texts. I > did hint at it in an earlier email to Rosie. Right now, my brother is > bringing his kids over. I was so indiscreet as to tell them that I had > never seen Star Wars, so they are bringing it over for me to watch with > them. "Its awesome. Its awesome," they keep telling me. They also want me > to make them one of their favorite desserts---icebox cake. FIZZ > Paul Murphy wrote: > >>>Murder comes in many guises. Deep vindication of all >>>those 'defense' engineers if only that's what they >>>were. >>> >>> >>f***, you must know what this means but it beats me >> >>> >>> >>>Excellent! You're so right. I'll add it. FIZZ >>>and so you should. by the way, I haven't read it >>> >>either... >> >>>Paul Murphy wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I couldn't understand the presence of the >>>> >>>Hofstadter >>> >>>>book? this book is an application of Goedel's >>>>mathematical theories to painting of Escher and >>>> >>>music >>> >>>>of Bach? Generally the list contains right of >>>> >>>centre >>> >>>>authors. the pattern evoked therein didn't make >>>> >>>sense >>> >>>>to me apart from merely listing the most in yer >>>> >>>face >>> >>>>Social Darwinists a la Ayn Rand and Adolf Hitler. >>>the >>> >>>>other list was more cogent, merely list the enemies >>>> >>>of >>> >>>>conservatism (although Hitler may be more of a >>>> >>>friend >>> >>>>than an enemy of that conservatism). walk a narrow >>>>tightrope between extremes (which is really >>>>impossible, isn't it? to be so purely politically >>>>correct? just think of all those conservatives >>>>together trying not to have an erroneous right or >>>> >>>left >>> >>>>wing extreme thought... >>>>of course lists are built on exclusion too, there >>>> >>>were >>> >>>>surely more harmful books than this? >>>>Sir Frank Kitson 'Low Intensity Operations'? >>>> >>>> >>>>--- Alphaville wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Most did not write anti-communist books. Knee >>>>> >>>jerk, >>> >>>>>it just feels like they had >>>>> >>>>>Reviewing the list, the following did not write >>>>>anti-communists books: Bernays, von Neumann(though was hell bent on >>>>>sacrificing 40 million Americans with a first nuclear strike against >>>>>the >>>>>Soviets because the Kuhn's took his big bright banker's- son Hungarian >>>>>bedroom for 8 months. Also his best jammies. Morgenstern. Shockley He >>>>> >>>was >>> >>>>>just a racist who hated African Americans with a blind hysteria. >>>>>Frederick Winslow Taylor he preferred brutalizing immmigrant workers. >>>>>Frederick Jackson Turner. Bill Pierce This is the only poetry list I >>>>>know of >>>>>where Pierce wouldn't want to kill every race mixer on it. Dean >>>>> >>>Worcester >>> >>>>>Concentrated on tormenting little brown people. George Bancroft >>>>>Anti-savage. Herrnstein and Murray Black people make them nervous. >>>>>Rudyard >>>>>Kipling mainenance of Empyre. Marvin Minsky Pure pseudoscience "The >>>>> >>>brain >>> >>>>>is a meat machine." Tennyson "Kip" ditto. Churchman. Hofstadter. >>>>> >>>Barrow. >>> >>>>>Tipler. Simms Every time a kill an Indian child it makes me a little >>>>>nostalgic. Tim LaHaye Is the Rapture anti-communist? Ask Tom DeLay. >>>>> >>>Frank >>> >>>>>Tipler Fear not. We're all coming back as angels. And I'm a >>>>> >>>physicist >>> >>>>>who controls tens of millions of dollars in research money so I >>>>> >>>should >>> >>>>>know. Daniel Dennett Where in my brain is the commie synapse? >>>>>Longfellow Yikes. Gunga Dinesh. Ivy Lee. Paglia She may BE a commie. >>>>> >>>Levitt >>> >>>>>and Gross. FIZZ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Paul Murphy wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>this list suggests that everyone (US everyone) >>>>>> >>>who >>> >>>>>>wrote a significant book that opposed Communism + >>>>>>Adolf Hitler (who also opposed it) is suspect. >>>Who >>> >>>>>>compiled this list and why has it been posted? >>>PM >>> >>>>>>--- Peter Cudmore >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>A spectacularly US-centric selection >>>>>>>P >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>Behalf Of Alphaville >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sent: 03 June 2005 17:48 >>>>>>>>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>&Views >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful >>>>>>>> >>>Books >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>of the 19th >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>and 20th Centuries >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>**10 Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>Centuries ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>** THE EDITORS >>>>>>>>The Assassinated Press >>>>>>>>May, 29, 2005 ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>**Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>Centuries >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>**1)Propaganda - Edward Bernays ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>**2)Theory of Games and Economic Behavior - >>>>>>>> >>>John >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>von Neumann >>>>>>> >>=== message truncated === >> >> >> >> __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a >> weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! >> http://discover.yahoo.com/ >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jun 4 12:33:25 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:33:25 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: <011201c56917$15ba91c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00f801c56923$2167cdb0$d1d93052@ANNY> Looking for poems...I also do. A great poem, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre. From: The Old Mole Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 5:07 PM David - I love this. It's now one of my favorites among your work. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 10:44 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... I've probably exceeded my poem-posting limit, too. But here's an old one of mine, based on a student typo. It was in a bibliography, and the student meant to type the magazine title *National Wildlife*, but instead came up with *National Mildlife*. That set me to imagining what such a magazine might look like, and what sort of world it would describe. The poem was titled "National Mildlife" until a journal editor asked me to change it, arguing that the jokey title obscured the essential seriousness of the poem. News to me: I had thought it a jokey poem. But then I realized that the editor was right. As often happens, I was fooling around, and surprised myself with the serious theme. . . . The Valley Where We Live A doe stands in the garden, nibbling lettuce we don't care to pick. OK, we say to the sun. Between the deer's legs rabbits walk their awkward way. The valley where we live is steep but not cloistered. Anything mild may enter: rain showers, balloons, snails, dictionaries, timothy, milk. Any born violence soon rises of its own energy and spins off the rim of our horizon. We make up gentle nicknames to their memory: dust devil, hooligan, zigzag, roughhouse. Potatoes turn earth itself sweet, we say, burying our mild dead where we must. We like poplar trees, how they take the quaking wind and calm it with slender semaphore. Sometimes, though, wandering the upper paths, we hear from beyond our valley muffled shouts, insistent chant of engines run uphill. Then the poplars shudder without wind. Then we pace our sheep-cropped lawns meaning to do what ever we have forgotten. Like children standing the first time at a cliff's windy edge we wonder what it is keeps us from leaping. Second Wind. Texas Tech University Press, 1990. ====================================== on 6/4/05 2:26 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: ? Thom - I have a feeling I've exceeded my limit for this month, and I promise to all try to be better and more self-effacing, but I do have a poem based on a misread statement that was sorta interesting. Reading an article about a performance artist, I came across the statement that she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the bear. I thought this was one of the most fascinating ideas I'd ever read. Then I looked again and saw that it actually said she explored a territory where the only map is the map of the heart. This was a territory, I realized, which held no interest whatever for me. But what about that territory where the only map is the map of the bear? I wanted to know more about that...a territory where the wilderness mapped itself. I had been deeply moved by Kurosawa's great movie, Dersu Uzala, where mapmaking becomes a symbol for both exploration and limitation, and I started to feel that I had to know more about the territory mapped only by the bear. This was the poem that came of it. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jun 4 12:34:17 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 11:34:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A found poem... In-Reply-To: <010f01c56922$fa2ffa60$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: > Knee >>>>>> >>>> jerk, >>>> >>>>>> it just feels like ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Jun 4 12:35:09 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 11:35:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction Message-ID: Sorry, the email for CCCP contact was mistyped. Here it is: [Lesley Nolan] lan22 at cam.ac.uk From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jun 4 12:36:35 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:36:35 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Typo Set in Stone References: <1fa.9f3398e.2fd31ec1@aol.com> Message-ID: <010901c56923$9331bf50$d1d93052@ANNY> I can recognize this one, what a wit! ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 5:12 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Typo Set in Stone Typo Set in Stone Isaac Bashevis Singer's headstone corrected 5 years after his death: Noble Laureate changed to "Nobel" Down on his hells, he spite, stammered, gravelled at their feet. How they had made him a whorse's ass. Oh but he was biting his time, one day he'd make mice-meat out of his enemies. Invoke the holey hosts, the vigilant angles. Break the spines of the unread books, their guilt-leaf edges. The pages red in haste, nothing remembered, nothing but the inky strains. All the words strange and the people merely payers. Let bookcases be our ladders, we shall climb out of this pit of ignorance, our dark mines. Owl' Issac, tool ate, you can't give back the ignobel loot, that blasted dynamight, world blown all to heel. God by, farwell. All monuments misspilt, stone trophies above the dread who would give back all the fine flame and honey for an hour in the shade of an ok tree, any tree, just for one day above the dearth, a word that death mated to the things of this good earth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 12:40:53 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A1D5D4.4090302@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20050604164053.91539.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com> I don't have a clue about what your talking about but I hope that it tasted good your end, ie you got a laugh from it...PM --- Alphaville wrote: > and grateful to be counted among > them. FIZZ > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> you're being paranoid, I was only making a > shallow > >> joke > > > > > > Not paranoid since no fear was involved, but > possibly error since I > > can't quite place you on the political spectrum > but have vaguely put > > you with CP and the agitprop dolts. Anyway, > congratulations--here I > > am, still at New-Politics. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > > > > >> --- Bob Grumman wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > you can leave new politics for new planet if > you > >>> want > >>> > >>> Good one, Paul. And quite in keeping with the > >>> purge-happy mentality of you > >>> and CP. > >>> > >>> --Bob G. > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________ > >> Yahoo! Mail Mobile > >> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your > mobile phone. > >> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 12:42:06 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A1D52C.2000402@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20050604164206.4063.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> yes, shoe pudding is great too --- Alphaville wrote: > me> > > You're a smart guy. But we all bring different > tools to these texts. I > did hint at it in an earlier email to Rosie. Right > now, my brother is > bringing his kids over. I was so indiscreet as to > tell them that I had > never seen Star Wars, so they are bringing it over > for me to watch with > them. "Its awesome. Its awesome," they keep telling > me. They also want > me to make them one of their favorite > desserts---icebox cake. FIZZ > Paul Murphy wrote: > > >>Murder comes in many guises. Deep vindication of > all > >>those 'defense' engineers if only that's what they > >>were. > >> > >> > >> > >f***, you must know what this means but it beats me > > > > > >> > >> > >>Excellent! You're so right. I'll add it. FIZZ > >>and so you should. by the way, I haven't read it > >> > >> > >either... > > > > > >>Paul Murphy wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I couldn't understand the presence of the > >>> > >>> > >>Hofstadter > >> > >> > >>>book? this book is an application of Goedel's > >>>mathematical theories to painting of Escher and > >>> > >>> > >>music > >> > >> > >>>of Bach? Generally the list contains right of > >>> > >>> > >>centre > >> > >> > >>>authors. the pattern evoked therein didn't make > >>> > >>> > >>sense > >> > >> > >>>to me apart from merely listing the most in yer > >>> > >>> > >>face > >> > >> > >>>Social Darwinists a la Ayn Rand and Adolf Hitler. > > >>> > >>> > >>the > >> > >> > >>>other list was more cogent, merely list the > enemies > >>> > >>> > >>of > >> > >> > >>>conservatism (although Hitler may be more of a > >>> > >>> > >>friend > >> > >> > >>>than an enemy of that conservatism). walk a > narrow > >>>tightrope between extremes (which is really > >>>impossible, isn't it? to be so purely > politically > >>>correct? just think of all those conservatives > >>>together trying not to have an erroneous right or > >>> > >>> > >>left > >> > >> > >>>wing extreme thought... > >>>of course lists are built on exclusion too, there > >>> > >>> > >>were > >> > >> > >>>surely more harmful books than this? > >>>Sir Frank Kitson 'Low Intensity Operations'? > >>> > >>> > >>>--- Alphaville wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Most did not write anti-communist books. Knee > >>>> > >>>> > >>jerk, > >> > >> > >>>>it just feels like > >>>>they had > >>>> > >>>>Reviewing the list, the following did not write > >>>>anti-communists books: > >>>>Bernays, von Neumann(though was hell bent on > >>>>sacrificing 40 million > >>>>Americans with a first nuclear strike against > the > >>>>Soviets because the > >>>>Kuhn's took his big bright banker's- son > Hungarian > >>>>bedroom for 8 months. > >>>>Also his best jammies. Morgenstern. Shockley He > >>>> > >>>> > >>was > >> > >> > >>>>just a racist who > >>>>hated African Americans with a blind hysteria. > >>>>Frederick Winslow Taylor > >>>>he preferred brutalizing immmigrant workers. > >>>>Frederick Jackson Turner. > >>>>Bill Pierce This is the only poetry list I know > of > >>>>where Pierce wouldn't > >>>>want to kill every race mixer on it. Dean > >>>> > >>>> > >>Worcester > >> > >> > >>>>Concentrated on > >>>>tormenting little brown people. George Bancroft > >>>>Anti-savage. Herrnstein > >>>>and Murray Black people make them nervous. > Rudyard > >>>>Kipling mainenance of > >>>>Empyre. Marvin Minsky Pure pseudoscience "The > >>>> > >>>> > >>brain > >> > >> > >>>>is a meat machine." > >>>>Tennyson "Kip" ditto. Churchman. Hofstadter. > >>>> > >>>> > >>Barrow. > >> > >> > >>>>Tipler. Simms Every > >>>>time a kill an Indian child it makes me a little > >>>>nostalgic. Tim LaHaye > >>>>Is the Rapture anti-communist? Ask Tom DeLay. > >>>> > >>>> > >>Frank > >> > >> > >>>>Tipler Fear not. > >>>>We're all coming back as angels. And I'm a > >>>> > >>>> > >>physicist > >> > >> > >>>>who controls tens > >>>>of millions of dollars in research money so I > >>>> > >>>> > >>should > >> > >> > === message truncated === __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jun 4 12:44:20 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 11:44:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another found poem... almost a haiku In-Reply-To: <20050604164206.4063.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: on 6/4/05 11:42 AM, Paul Murphy at clitophon at yahoo.com wrote: >> Hungarian >>>>>> bedroom for 8 months. >>>>>> Also his best jammies. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 4 12:45:47 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:45:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Berryman References: <00e601c5691e$fd15d910$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <029d01c56924$dd127280$4e169c51@Robin> Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, BerrymanI agree with David (hey, I'm just back from a driving-filled long trip and I hate driving, so I guess I've gone a bit agreeable do to weak-mindedness). The only difference between Lowell and Berryman of late seems to me that Lowell is constantly being referred to as losing his reputation whereas Berryman is not often referred to in any way. I don't think he had a book on the moron list (hey, I'm recovering) of influential books the American Academy of Poets has at its site. If he does, I'm pretty sure I came across something like that that did not mention him. Bishop is riding high because of feminism--not that she wasn't a good poet, but I don't see her as being near Lowell or Berryman, and I rate both lower than Roethke. I've been meaning to ask this question since forever, and now seems an appropriate time and place to do it. In Berryman's +Collected Poems: 1937-1971+ (Faber, 1990, out a year earlier in the US of A, simultaneously with a separate volume collecting all The Dream Songs), Berryman's Sonnets become +Sonnets to Chris+, a change from the original 1967 printing, and "Lise" is replaced by "Chris" throughout the sequence. What do people think about this? (I know what I think, and the thoughts are virtually unprintable.) As to Lowell and Berryman. I came on Lowell in the mid-sixties, and Berryman a year or a few later. I think Lowell peaked with +Life Studies+ and went downhill thereafter, whereas Berryman carried on developing and expanding and extending right up till the end of his life. Berryman's reputation was never remotely close to Lowell's in the UK. Too "American" maybe -- Lowell was easier for Brits to assimilate. Robin http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/ChideOne/Fourth%20Chiding.htm ... for one reason why I have a strictly personal stake in the name in Berryman's sonnets. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 12:53:18 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] the Muses In-Reply-To: <010301c56921$c6297490$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050604165319.24078.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> can we provide some sort of commentary to the names? ie Terpsichore Terpsichorean and what it means does Erato also form a word? --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > Calliope: heroic/epic poetry and literature, > eloquence in writing and > > speech. > > Erato: romantic and erotic poetry, mime. > > Clio: history. > > Euterpe: lyric poetry and music. > > Terpsichore: dance and choral song. > > Polyhymnia: sacred songs, sacred poetry, > storytelling. > > Urania: astronomy, metaphysics. > > Melpomene: elegies, tragedies. > > Thalia: comedy. > > > > i feel that Urania could certainly handle > philosophy. > > > > Vireo > > Yes, indeed. Thalia could handle analytical > thinking, too, it now strikes > me. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 4 12:53:16 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:53:16 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries References: <20050604155939.10754.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com><010001c56921$a140e870$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <42A1D5D4.4090302@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <02b501c56925$e8b96de0$4e169c51@Robin> > and grateful to be counted among them. FIZZ > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> you're being paranoid, I was only making a shallow > >> joke Me too, on occasion. R. AN IRREVERENT MEMORIAL TO THE RED CLYDE FOUR (for Larry Weiss) Thir wir giants on earth in them days, so thir wir, Great huge men like McLean, who cud lift A dockers' strike in wan han, thi other Chokin a capitalist. Or wee Jimmy Maxton, him Who wis a teacher, screivin his biography u Lenin. Gallagher wis no bad either, hoddin a commie seat Way intae the fifties. But ma favourite wis Kirkwood: See his autobiography -- photae a him gettin his heid bustid By the polis in George Square, an the introduction Written by Winston Churchill. Magic! Way tae go. -- Robin Hamilton From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jun 4 13:13:27 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 13:13:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Muses In-Reply-To: <20050604165319.24078.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050604165319.24078.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jun 4, 2005, at 12:53 PM, Paul Murphy wrote: > can we provide some sort of commentary to the names? > ie Terpsichore Terpsichorean and what it means > does Erato also form a word? Obviously. The word is eratic (a typo for erratic). Hal Actual Product May Vary from Photos Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 4 13:53:48 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 13:53:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <20050604164206.4063.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050604164206.4063.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A1EAAC.4090003@ix.netcom.com> Well, my niece just shouted down that they were watching Grumpy Old Men and asked what I was doing. At that moment. I was reading Murphy and Grumman's emails so I told her I was watching grumpy old men too. FIZZ Uche says <"stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content."> Paul Murphy wrote: >yes, shoe pudding is great too > >--- Alphaville wrote: > > > >>>me> >> >>You're a smart guy. But we all bring different >>tools to these texts. I >>did hint at it in an earlier email to Rosie. Right >>now, my brother is >>bringing his kids over. I was so indiscreet as to >>tell them that I had >>never seen Star Wars, so they are bringing it over >>for me to watch with >>them. "Its awesome. Its awesome," they keep telling >>me. They also want >>me to make them one of their favorite >>desserts---icebox cake. FIZZ >>Paul Murphy wrote: >> >> >> >>>>Murder comes in many guises. Deep vindication of >>>> >>>> >>all >> >> >>>>those 'defense' engineers if only that's what they >>>>were. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>f***, you must know what this means but it beats me >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Excellent! You're so right. I'll add it. FIZZ >>>>and so you should. by the way, I haven't read it >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>either... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Paul Murphy wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I couldn't understand the presence of the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Hofstadter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>book? this book is an application of Goedel's >>>>>mathematical theories to painting of Escher and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>music >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>of Bach? Generally the list contains right of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>centre >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>authors. the pattern evoked therein didn't make >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>sense >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>to me apart from merely listing the most in yer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>face >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Social Darwinists a la Ayn Rand and Adolf Hitler. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>the >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>other list was more cogent, merely list the >>>>> >>>>> >>enemies >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>of >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>conservatism (although Hitler may be more of a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>friend >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>than an enemy of that conservatism). walk a >>>>> >>>>> >>narrow >> >> >>>>>tightrope between extremes (which is really >>>>>impossible, isn't it? to be so purely >>>>> >>>>> >>politically >> >> >>>>>correct? just think of all those conservatives >>>>>together trying not to have an erroneous right or >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>left >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>wing extreme thought... >>>>>of course lists are built on exclusion too, there >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>were >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>surely more harmful books than this? >>>>>Sir Frank Kitson 'Low Intensity Operations'? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>--- Alphaville wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Most did not write anti-communist books. Knee >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>jerk, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>it just feels like >>>>>>they had >>>>>> >>>>>>Reviewing the list, the following did not write >>>>>>anti-communists books: >>>>>>Bernays, von Neumann(though was hell bent on >>>>>>sacrificing 40 million >>>>>>Americans with a first nuclear strike against >>>>>> >>>>>> >>the >> >> >>>>>>Soviets because the >>>>>>Kuhn's took his big bright banker's- son >>>>>> >>>>>> >>Hungarian >> >> >>>>>>bedroom for 8 months. >>>>>>Also his best jammies. Morgenstern. Shockley He >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>was >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>just a racist who >>>>>>hated African Americans with a blind hysteria. >>>>>>Frederick Winslow Taylor >>>>>>he preferred brutalizing immmigrant workers. >>>>>>Frederick Jackson Turner. >>>>>>Bill Pierce This is the only poetry list I know >>>>>> >>>>>> >>of >> >> >>>>>>where Pierce wouldn't >>>>>>want to kill every race mixer on it. Dean >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>Worcester >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Concentrated on >>>>>>tormenting little brown people. George Bancroft >>>>>>Anti-savage. Herrnstein >>>>>>and Murray Black people make them nervous. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>Rudyard >> >> >>>>>>Kipling mainenance of >>>>>>Empyre. Marvin Minsky Pure pseudoscience "The >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>brain >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>is a meat machine." >>>>>>Tennyson "Kip" ditto. Churchman. Hofstadter. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>Barrow. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Tipler. Simms Every >>>>>>time a kill an Indian child it makes me a little >>>>>>nostalgic. Tim LaHaye >>>>>>Is the Rapture anti-communist? Ask Tom DeLay. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>Frank >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Tipler Fear not. >>>>>>We're all coming back as angels. And I'm a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>physicist >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>who controls tens >>>>>>of millions of dollars in research money so I >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>should >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >=== message truncated === > > > > >__________________________________ >Discover Yahoo! >Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! >http://discover.yahoo.com/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jun 4 15:06:53 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:06:53 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] For those who live in Massachusetts Message-ID: <020301c56938$92529d60$d1d93052@ANNY> forwarding from another list: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MASSACHUSETTS_POET_LAUREATE?SITE=NYNY D&SECTION=NATIONAL&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT Mass. Lawmaker Pushes for Poet Laureate By STEVE LeBLANC Associated Press Writer BOSTON (AP) -- Throughout its history, Massachusetts has been home and host to some of the nation's most celebrated poets, from Emily Dickinson and Henry Wadsworth Longfellow to Robert Lowell and Sylvia Plath. Despite that, the state has never had a poet laureate. However, that could soon change if lawmakers adopt a bill to create an official position of poet laureate. "With poetry there's no socio-economic or age bias," said Democratic State Rep. Anne Gobi. "This is a way to say 'Hey, the arts are important.'" The only duty for the poet named to the unpaid post would be to "act as a public emissary and advocate for poetry in the state," under the language of the legislation. Gobi said the idea for the bill started with a conversation she had with a friend in a local poetry writing group. The friend suggested Massachusetts, with its rich literary heritage, should have its own poet laureate. After doing research, Gobi agreed, noting that virtually every other New England state boasts an official laureate. Under the bill, the Massachusetts Cultural Council would be charged with coming up with a list of three candidates. The only requirement would be that they either live or work in the state. The list would then be sent to the governor, who would make the final choice for the two-year term. There should be no shortage of candidates. Prominent poets with ties to the state include former U.S. poet laureate Robert Pinsky, who teaches at Boston University, and Nobel laureate and Irish poet Seamus Heaney, who teaches at Harvard University. For those who prefer a grittier style, Massachusetts also is home to regular poetry slams where poets go head-to-head in bars, coffee shops and galleries, each hoping to wow the crowd and move on to the next round. The idea has met with some skepticism. "When I initially heard of it I thought it was a useless idea," said Louisa Solano, longtime owner and operator of the Grolier Poetry Book Shop in Harvard Square in Cambridge. "I'm just afraid in Massachusetts it would be too concentrated on Boston and Cambridge and forget the rest of the state." But the more she thought about it, the more she said she warmed to the idea - provided that whoever is named poet laureate isn't trapped in an insular literary world. "I would hope it is someone with good reading ability and writing ability but someone who also has an ability to reach out into the community," said Solano, who also writes poetry. __________________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cc at opus0.com Sat Jun 4 19:52:08 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:52:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Pure Analyticality / ... / oracle at Delphi In-Reply-To: <200506041508.j54F8ORe012604@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: ======== ...after killing Python, a plague for all men, Apollo established his oracle in the vicinity. He then appointed Cretan sailors as the sanctuary's first priests. For having seen a Cretan ship sailing from Cnossus in Crete to Pylos in the Peloponnesus, he turned himself into a dolphin and brought the ship into the Crisaean Gulf, which is in the Phocian section of the northern coast of the Gulf of Corinth. So from Crisa, the Cretan sailors conducted by Apollo came to Parnassus, and having become priests of Apollo, they called the city Delphi, for the god, having appeared to them in the shape of a dolphin, told them: "I sprang upon the ship in the form of a dolphin, pray to me as Apollo Delphinius; also the altar itself shall be called Delphinius ..." [Apollo to the Cretan sailors. Homeric Hymn to Pythian Apollo 495] The oracle [A Pythian priestess says concerning the oracle of Delphi] that the first to have prophetic powers was Gaia, who appointed Daphnis 4, a Mountain Nymph (Oread), as prophetess. After her came Themis, and then the Titaness Phoebe 1, who gave her seat at Delphi to Phoebus Apollo, called after her. But others say that Gaia and Poseidon had the oracle in common, and that it was Themis who gave the oracle to Apollo as a gift, and that Poseidon was compensated receiving Calaureia, that lies off Troezen, in exchange for the oracle. First prophetess Phemonoe, they say, was the first prophetess of Apollo at Delphi, but the Delphian poetess Boeo says that the Hyperboreans Pagasus 1, Olen and Agyieus established the oracle of Apollo at Delphi and that Olen was Apollo's first prophet[ess]. ============= --from Greek Mythology site by Carlos Parada: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Delphi.html C Carlos Parada & Maicar Forlag 1997 > Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:14:50 -0400 > From: > Subject: [New-Poetry] Pure Analyticality / Map of the Bear / Muse of > Philosophy / how many girls? > Anny said, "Mercury, quick silver." > > Bob said: > > "Hmmm, Mercury, too. Another question: is there a muse of philosophy? > The muses are just for the arts, though, and history, right?" > > I don't think there is a muse for philosophy. But in her place I would > suggest: > > The oracle at Delphi, who said that Socrates was the wisest man > in Greece. > Socrates did not believe her and set out through questioning his fellow > citizens to find one wiser than himself. He discovered that they > believed > themselves to possess a wisdom which they did not possess, and at > last was > forced to admit that he was indeed the wisest man in Greece. > While others > knew nothing, not realizing they knew nothing, Socrates knew that he knew > nothing, thus possessing one item of information more than any other > Athenian. > > And Diotima (Symposium, 204 a - b). The speech of Diotima is a > progressive analysis of Socrates' nature. He is an embodiment of > the state > of the soul which is between knowledge and ignorance in the > eternal search > for knowledge. Socrates is the truest illustration of the > educational impulse. > > So I would suggest one or other or both of these gals. (I guess > I don't really > know for certain the sex -- sorry -- of the oracle at Delphi. > Does anybody? From info at shorepoets.org.uk Sat Jun 4 20:49:49 2005 From: info at shorepoets.org.uk (Shore Poets) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:49:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd prefer it if one or the other carried a Zizek introduction. Otherwise you get the feeling he's spreading himself too thin (imagine!). P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson > Sent: 04 June 2005 17:31 > To: lucipo at lists.ibiblio.org > Cc: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books > > Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry Books (CCCP Books for > short!) will be soon re-releasing, in lovely editions, the > following two > collections: > > The Miseries of Poetry: Traductions from the Greek, traduced > by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson (originally > published by Skanky Possum Press) > > and > > Dear Lacan: An Analysis in Correspondence, by Jaques Debrot, > Jacques Lacan, and Jacques Alain-Miller (originally published > by Oasis Press) > > Both books carry brief forwards by Slavoj Zizek. > > Ordering information can be obtained by contacting: > > Lesley Nolan > Administrator, Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry > c/o Director's Office The Fitzwilliam Museum Trumpington > Street CAMBRIDGE > CB2 1RB > lan22 at can.ac.uk > Tel: 01223 332922 > Fax: 01223 332923 > > Kent > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From info at shorepoets.org.uk Sat Jun 4 20:51:51 2005 From: info at shorepoets.org.uk (Shore Poets) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:51:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd prefer it if one or the other carried a Zizek introduction. Otherwise you get the feeling he's spreading himself too thin (imagine!). P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson > Sent: 04 June 2005 17:31 > To: lucipo at lists.ibiblio.org > Cc: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books > > Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry Books (CCCP Books for > short!) will be soon re-releasing, in lovely editions, the > following two > collections: > > The Miseries of Poetry: Traductions from the Greek, traduced > by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson (originally > published by Skanky Possum Press) > > and > > Dear Lacan: An Analysis in Correspondence, by Jaques Debrot, > Jacques Lacan, and Jacques Alain-Miller (originally published > by Oasis Press) > > Both books carry brief forwards by Slavoj Zizek. > > Ordering information can be obtained by contacting: > > Lesley Nolan > Administrator, Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry > c/o Director's Office The Fitzwilliam Museum Trumpington > Street CAMBRIDGE > CB2 1RB > lan22 at can.ac.uk > Tel: 01223 332922 > Fax: 01223 332923 > > Kent > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 4 21:49:06 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 02:49:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books References: Message-ID: <001d01c56970$c326f110$4e169c51@Robin> Sheath your claws, Peter -- or do you want me to resume work on "Internet Discussion Lists Considered in Terms of Primate Territoriality [with Special Reference to The Lacan Letters]"? The Stone Dormouse. > I'd prefer it if one or the other carried a Zizek introduction. Otherwise > you get the feeling he's spreading himself too thin (imagine!). > > P > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson > > Sent: 04 June 2005 17:31 > > To: lucipo at lists.ibiblio.org > > Cc: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books > > > > Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry Books (CCCP Books for > > short!) will be soon re-releasing, in lovely editions, the > > following two From MillB at aol.com Sun Jun 5 00:12:03 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 00:12:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Japanese Translation Message-ID: <20.463ed094.2fd3d593@aol.com> I posted an announcement (to this list) regarding wedding poems, and I was so grateful for the wonderful suggestions! Now, I am considering, maybe, reading the Neruda poem, "The Infinite One" but would like a Japanese translation. Does anyone know of a good one? I have the English and the Spanish and since the wedding is so multi-cultural, I was thinking a Japanese version would be a nice addition to the program (since the bride is Japanese). Thanks in advance, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 5 02:58:58 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:58:58 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness Message-ID: <00e701c5699c$0c71dad0$fb2bb750@ANNY> Sorry nothing to do with poetry but with a sunny Sunday _ in my mailbox today: An Ohio law makes it a felony for an instructor of roller-skating to seduce a female pupil. In Walden, New York, it is illegal to give a drink of water to anyone unless you have a permit. It is against the law in Illinois for a conductor to collect fares without his hat on. In Branford, Connecticut, it's the law that all people must be covered from shoulder to knee before appearing on any street. It is against the law to slap a man on the back in Georgia. In Vermont, it is illegal to whistle underwater. There is a Delaware state law requiring all aviators flying over large bodies of water to carry food and drink. All taxicabs must carry a broom and shovel in the District of Columbia. In McDonald, Ohio, it is unlawful to march your goose down the main street. In Key West, Florida, turtle racing is prohibited within the city limits. It is unlawful for a man or a woman to go unshaven in Carrizozo, New Mexico. In Cleveland it is unlawful for more than two people to drink out of the same whiskey bottle. A Kansas game rule prohibits the use of mules in hunting ducks. A Fort Madison, Iowa, law requires the fire department to practice for fifteen minutes before attending a fire. It shall be unlawful to operate a machine with ice picks fitted to the wheels over the roads of Whitehall, Montana. Tim B. Gunter to which I might add that a couple of weeks ago I was here working when amidst the traffic I heard the voice of a girl exclaiming in panic: How many they are! So I looked out of the window, and here arrived two big fire engines, a couple of police cars a smaller fire engine, for a total of about 50 people or more with hoses and lights and sirens ___ wow ___ I would have said when I was small, but what had happened? It took me a while to finally detect the tiniest fire in the world that was burning the bells at the entrance of the opposite condominium, probably a short circuit. I think the fireman who had to extinguish it felt quite silly with that big hose in his hands and the leading fireman giving him directions in front of him (a bucket of water would have been enough), at least that is how I interpreted it from my position. And they stayed there for a couple of hours to write down the bureaucratic papers, lights and firemen and policemen. It reminded me of Pleasantville when the guy calls the firemen for an actual fire and nobody moves, so he yells out _Cat_ (cat on the tree) and they all jump up from their chairs. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jun 5 05:50:30 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 05:50:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: <1d5.3d590f8d.2fd2d9a1@aol.com><002e01c568f6$8ff32f90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><019e01c56908$609bb840$4e169c51@Robin> <003e01c5690c$b3885eb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <036c01c569b4$05972b30$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Just to check: I want to post the Mole's bear-map poem and his history of its inception at my blog--do I have your okay, Mole? I take it for granted that poems put on New-Poetry are made available in this way, but wanted to make sure. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo at optonline.net Sun Jun 5 06:40:43 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 06:40:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] slow time References: <269c47c05060121042bd32489@mail.gmail.com> <029701c567d5$2a600d00$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00be01c569bb$0681d520$3a95c044@MULDER> I like the water in the poem, Bob--those rippling wwwwww(s the swans, leaving, leave, willowleaves bobbing astride them. ~ Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: Peter Saint-Andre ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News & Views Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time > Yet it is precisely form (meter) > and that sense of something familiar yet different and special that > induces poetic "slow time". Here's a text I call a poem, Peter, than I claim should slow time although it has no meter: (August afternoon)( ) - swans = willow.wwwwwww... It is best as one line but won't show that way on some screens, I imagine. Of course, it has a form--two of them, in fact: the explicit form of an algebraic equation, and the implicit form of a haiku (Its title is "Mathemaku No. 8"). But I don't see form as having much to do with producing a slowing of time. Difficulty is what most does that--heightened language in traditional poetry and/or fresh metaphors and/or artful ambiguities, etc. Yes, "familiar yet different." In my poem, it IS form, because its form is different for poetry though familiar to anyone who had and remembers his algebra. Also the extreme concision of the poem should slow a reader into solving it. On further thought, I see that a form not killed through over-use might slow time if the reader recognizes it and slows down to appreciate it, and lets it extend him into other poems using the same form, and/or into the world that form has brought into existence beyond the many words used in it. Still, what most immediately and fully will slow a poem's reader is whatever is hinderingly fresh in it. I prize poetry most not for slow time, though, but for rich time. But that would not be possible without slow time.... --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 5 07:00:51 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:00:51 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] slow time References: <269c47c05060121042bd32489@mail.gmail.com><029701c567d5$2a600d00$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00be01c569bb$0681d520$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <01a801c569bd$d6b552b0$fb2bb750@ANNY> Thank you Daniel for bringing this mail up, I might have skipped it before. I also like this _poetic mathematical line_ I would add that the blank of the second bracket brings to the whiteness of the swan and the white light of an intense August, white adding to the idea of a warm welcome breeze -that willow.wwwww - sort of moving, but whatever, these are mere speculations. Am I allowed to post it to my blooog ? (does anybody maybe know why my text is stuck all the way down there, or how I can bring it up again - speaking of my blooog _?) Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre. From: Daniel Zimmerman Cc: Daniel Zimmerman Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 12:40 PM I like the water in the poem, Bob--those rippling wwwwww(s the swans, leaving, leave, willowleaves bobbing astride them. ~ Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: Peter Saint-Andre ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News & Views Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time > Yet it is precisely form (meter) > and that sense of something familiar yet different and special that > induces poetic "slow time". Here's a text I call a poem, Peter, than I claim should slow time although it has no meter: (August afternoon)( ) - swans = willow.wwwwwww... It is best as one line but won't show that way on some screens, I imagine. Of course, it has a form--two of them, in fact: the explicit form of an algebraic equation, and the implicit form of a haiku (Its title is "Mathemaku No. 8"). But I don't see form as having much to do with producing a slowing of time. Difficulty is what most does that--heightened language in traditional poetry and/or fresh metaphors and/or artful ambiguities, etc. Yes, "familiar yet different." In my poem, it IS form, because its form is different for poetry though familiar to anyone who had and remembers his algebra. Also the extreme concision of the poem should slow a reader into solving it. On further thought, I see that a form not killed through over-use might slow time if the reader recognizes it and slows down to appreciate it, and lets it extend him into other poems using the same form, and/or into the world that form has brought into existence beyond the many words used in it. Still, what most immediately and fully will slow a poem's reader is whatever is hinderingly fresh in it. I prize poetry most not for slow time, though, but for rich time. But that would not be possible without slow time.... --Bob G. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jun 5 08:09:53 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:09:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] slow time References: <269c47c05060121042bd32489@mail.gmail.com><029701c567d5$2a600d00$87b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00be01c569bb$0681d520$3a95c044@MULDER> <01a801c569bd$d6b552b0$fb2bb750@ANNY> Message-ID: <03b901c569c7$7bc40720$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks, Anny&Danny, for your comments about my .wwwwww poem. I had become especially interested to hear about it because a vispo friend of mine thought the ( ) too ambiguous. So I very much like what Anny brought to that, validating it, in my view (although I was thinking of it as absence more than whiteness, though I now see whiteness is certainly there, too, and effective). As for posting it to your blog, definitely yes. Anything I post here is for everybody to do whatever with (except make money off it). --Bob she ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time Thank you Daniel for bringing this mail up, I might have skipped it before. I also like this _poetic mathematical line_ I would add that the blank of the second bracket brings to the whiteness of the swan and the white light of an intense August, white adding to the idea of a warm welcome breeze -that willow.wwwww - sort of moving, but whatever, these are mere speculations. Am I allowed to post it to my blooog ? (does anybody maybe know why my text is stuck all the way down there, or how I can bring it up again - speaking of my blooog _?) Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre. From: Daniel Zimmerman Cc: Daniel Zimmerman Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 12:40 PM I like the water in the poem, Bob--those rippling wwwwww(s the swans, leaving, leave, willowleaves bobbing astride them. ~ Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: Peter Saint-Andre ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News & Views Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time > Yet it is precisely form (meter) > and that sense of something familiar yet different and special that > induces poetic "slow time". Here's a text I call a poem, Peter, than I claim should slow time although it has no meter: (August afternoon)( ) - swans = willow.wwwwwww... It is best as one line but won't show that way on some screens, I imagine. Of course, it has a form--two of them, in fact: the explicit form of an algebraic equation, and the implicit form of a haiku (Its title is "Mathemaku No. 8"). But I don't see form as having much to do with producing a slowing of time. Difficulty is what most does that--heightened language in traditional poetry and/or fresh metaphors and/or artful ambiguities, etc. Yes, "familiar yet different." In my poem, it IS form, because its form is different for poetry though familiar to anyone who had and remembers his algebra. Also the extreme concision of the poem should slow a reader into solving it. On further thought, I see that a form not killed through over-use might slow time if the reader recognizes it and slows down to appreciate it, and lets it extend him into other poems using the same form, and/or into the world that form has brought into existence beyond the many words used in it. Still, what most immediately and fully will slow a poem's reader is whatever is hinderingly fresh in it. I prize poetry most not for slow time, though, but for rich time. But that would not be possible without slow time.... --Bob G. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 08:34:51 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 05:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries In-Reply-To: <42A1EAAC.4090003@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20050605123451.30443.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> yyeah and I;m watching my ass, outof here --- Alphaville wrote: > Well, my niece just shouted down that they were > watching Grumpy Old Men and asked what I was doing. > At that moment. I was reading Murphy and Grumman's > emails so I told her I was watching grumpy old men > too. FIZZ > > > > possibly error since I can't > quite place you...> > > Uche says <"stay well away from this thread. There > is a good chance that it is jinxed against ever > bearing any useful content."> > > > > Paul Murphy wrote: > > >yes, shoe pudding is great too > > > >--- Alphaville wrote: > > > > > > > >> >>me> > >> > >>You're a smart guy. But we all bring different > >>tools to these texts. I > >>did hint at it in an earlier email to Rosie. Right > >>now, my brother is > >>bringing his kids over. I was so indiscreet as to > >>tell them that I had > >>never seen Star Wars, so they are bringing it over > >>for me to watch with > >>them. "Its awesome. Its awesome," they keep > telling > >>me. They also want > >>me to make them one of their favorite > >>desserts---icebox cake. FIZZ > >>Paul Murphy wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>>Murder comes in many guises. Deep vindication of > >>>> > >>>> > >>all > >> > >> > >>>>those 'defense' engineers if only that's what > they > >>>>were. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>f***, you must know what this means but it beats > me > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Excellent! You're so right. I'll add it. FIZZ > >>>>and so you should. by the way, I haven't read > it > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>either... > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Paul Murphy wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>I couldn't understand the presence of the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>Hofstadter > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>book? this book is an application of Goedel's > >>>>>mathematical theories to painting of Escher and > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>music > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>of Bach? Generally the list contains right of > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>centre > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>authors. the pattern evoked therein didn't > make > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>sense > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>to me apart from merely listing the most in yer > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>face > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Social Darwinists a la Ayn Rand and Adolf > Hitler. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>the > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>other list was more cogent, merely list the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>enemies > >> > >> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>of > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>conservatism (although Hitler may be more of a > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>friend > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>than an enemy of that conservatism). walk a > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>narrow > >> > >> > >>>>>tightrope between extremes (which is really > >>>>>impossible, isn't it? to be so purely > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>politically > >> > >> > >>>>>correct? just think of all those conservatives > >>>>>together trying not to have an erroneous right > or > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>left > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > === message truncated === __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From clitophon at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 08:35:49 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 05:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] the Muses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050605123549.31361.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> I;ma v stupid person and need it all spelled out --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > > On Jun 4, 2005, at 12:53 PM, Paul Murphy wrote: > > > can we provide some sort of commentary to the > names? > > ie Terpsichore Terpsichorean and what it means > > does Erato also form a word? > > Obviously. The word is eratic (a typo for erratic). > > Hal > > Actual Product May Vary from Photos > > Halvard Johnson > halvard at earthlink.net > halvard at gmail.com > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From tad at opus40.org Sun Jun 5 09:22:45 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:22:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness References: <00e701c5699c$0c71dad0$fb2bb750@ANNY> Message-ID: <002c01c569d1$aba229e0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> OK, forget about me ever getting a job as a roller-skating instructor in Ohio. But I live near Walden. I'd better be careful there, Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 2:58 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness Sorry nothing to do with poetry but with a sunny Sunday _ in my mailbox today: An Ohio law makes it a felony for an instructor of roller-skating to seduce a female pupil. In Walden, New York, it is illegal to give a drink of water to anyone unless you have a permit. It is against the law in Illinois for a conductor to collect fares without his hat on. In Branford, Connecticut, it's the law that all people must be covered from shoulder to knee before appearing on any street. It is against the law to slap a man on the back in Georgia. In Vermont, it is illegal to whistle underwater. There is a Delaware state law requiring all aviators flying over large bodies of water to carry food and drink. All taxicabs must carry a broom and shovel in the District of Columbia. In McDonald, Ohio, it is unlawful to march your goose down the main street. In Key West, Florida, turtle racing is prohibited within the city limits. It is unlawful for a man or a woman to go unshaven in Carrizozo, New Mexico. In Cleveland it is unlawful for more than two people to drink out of the same whiskey bottle. A Kansas game rule prohibits the use of mules in hunting ducks. A Fort Madison, Iowa, law requires the fire department to practice for fifteen minutes before attending a fire. It shall be unlawful to operate a machine with ice picks fitted to the wheels over the roads of Whitehall, Montana. Tim B. Gunter to which I might add that a couple of weeks ago I was here working when amidst the traffic I heard the voice of a girl exclaiming in panic: How many they are! So I looked out of the window, and here arrived two big fire engines, a couple of police cars a smaller fire engine, for a total of about 50 people or more with hoses and lights and sirens ___ wow ___ I would have said when I was small, but what had happened? It took me a while to finally detect the tiniest fire in the world that was burning the bells at the entrance of the opposite condominium, probably a short circuit. I think the fireman who had to extinguish it felt quite silly with that big hose in his hands and the leading fireman giving him directions in front of him (a bucket of water would have been enough), at least that is how I interpreted it from my position. And they stayed there for a couple of hours to write down the bureaucratic papers, lights and firemen and policemen. It reminded me of Pleasantville when the guy calls the firemen for an actual fire and nobody moves, so he yells out _Cat_ (cat on the tree) and they all jump up from their chairs. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Jun 5 09:25:10 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:25:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: <1d5.3d590f8d.2fd2d9a1@aol.com><002e01c568f6$8ff32f90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><019e01c56908$609bb840$4e169c51@Robin><003e01c5690c$b3885eb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <036c01c569b4$05972b30$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005801c569d2$026ddc10$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Absolutely, Bob, and I'm honored. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... Just to check: I want to post the Mole's bear-map poem and his history of its inception at my blog--do I have your okay, Mole? I take it for granted that poems put on New-Poetry are made available in this way, but wanted to make sure. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Sun Jun 5 10:12:04 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 08:12:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... In-Reply-To: <036c01c569b4$05972b30$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <1d5.3d590f8d.2fd2d9a1@aol.com> <002e01c568f6$8ff32f90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <019e01c56908$609bb840$4e169c51@Robin> <003e01c5690c$b3885eb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <036c01c569b4$05972b30$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1117980724.8026.97.camel@malatesta> On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 05:50 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote: > ? > Just to check: I want to post the Mole's bear-map poem and his history > of its inception at my blog--do I have your okay, Mole? > > I take it for granted that poems put on New-Poetry are made available > in this way, but wanted to make sure. I kinda assumed that, too, but I still think it's polite to ask. And it's worth noting that I have no problem whatsoever with an answer of "no", and will respect such an answer (I haven't heard from Paul Lake yet on the same question w.r.t "Pieces"). I do think I'll write a blog entry with links to the archives for the poems I've particularly enjoyed (quite a few). -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jun 5 10:24:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:24:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: <1d5.3d590f8d.2fd2d9a1@aol.com><002e01c568f6$8ff32f90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><019e01c56908$609bb840$4e169c51@Robin><003e01c5690c$b3885eb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><036c01c569b4$05972b30$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005801c569d2$026ddc10$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <03ee01c569da$46c12fe0$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Absolutely, Bob, and I'm honored. Thanks, Tad. Anything to make me look like a perceptive appreciator of poetry. It's now there. Tomorrow (maybe) a poem of mine in, uh, retaliation. Actually, I hope, a mate--a following of a cerebral map to your following of a visceral one. Or something like that. --Bob Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... Just to check: I want to post the Mole's bear-map poem and his history of its inception at my blog--do I have your okay, Mole? I take it for granted that poems put on New-Poetry are made available in this way, but wanted to make sure. --Bob G. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Jun 5 11:10:55 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 11:10:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... References: <1d5.3d590f8d.2fd2d9a1@aol.com><002e01c568f6$8ff32f90$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><019e01c56908$609bb840$4e169c51@Robin><003e01c5690c$b3885eb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><036c01c569b4$05972b30$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005801c569d2$026ddc10$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <03ee01c569da$46c12fe0$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <018501c569e0$c84038d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> look forward to seeing it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... Absolutely, Bob, and I'm honored. Thanks, Tad. Anything to make me look like a perceptive appreciator of poetry. It's now there. Tomorrow (maybe) a poem of mine in, uh, retaliation. Actually, I hope, a mate--a following of a cerebral map to your following of a visceral one. Or something like that. --Bob Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... Just to check: I want to post the Mole's bear-map poem and his history of its inception at my blog--do I have your okay, Mole? I take it for granted that poems put on New-Poetry are made available in this way, but wanted to make sure. --Bob G. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 11:49:00 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness In-Reply-To: <00e701c5699c$0c71dad0$fb2bb750@ANNY> Message-ID: <20050605154900.97062.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> What's the purpose of taking roller-skating lessons then?! Cleveland lowmakers', on the other hand, seem to be reasonable people... And something I've read, but never checked... Is it true that in the state of NY nudity (on public places) is forbiden by low, but females can ride the NYC metro naked... if they wish to do so? Rosie It was dangerous to speak because he didn't know which way a sentence might tend to go, toward one thing or the logical opposite. ~ Don DeLillo *Mao II* Anny Ballardini wrote: Sorry nothing to do with poetry but with a sunny Sunday _ in my mailbox today: An Ohio law makes it a felony for an instructor of roller-skating to seduce a female pupil. In Walden, New York, it is illegal to give a drink of water to anyone unless you have a permit. It is against the law in Illinois for a conductor to collect fares without his hat on. In Branford, Connecticut, it's the law that all people must be covered from shoulder to knee before appearing on any street. It is against the law to slap a man on the back in Georgia. In Vermont, it is illegal to whistle underwater. There is a Delaware state law requiring all aviators flying over large bodies of water to carry food and drink. All taxicabs must carry a broom and shovel in the District of Columbia. In McDonald, Ohio, it is unlawful to march your goose down the main street. In Key West, Florida, turtle racing is prohibited within the city limits. It is unlawful for a man or a woman to go unshaven in Carrizozo, New Mexico. In Cleveland it is unlawful for more than two people to drink out of the same whiskey bottle. A Kansas game rule prohibits the use of mules in hunting ducks. A Fort Madison, Iowa, law requires the fire department to practice for fifteen minutes before attending a fire. It shall be unlawful to operate a machine with ice picks fitted to the wheels over the roads of Whitehall, Montana. Tim B. Gunter to which I might add that a couple of weeks ago I was here working when amidst the traffic I heard the voice of a girl exclaiming in panic: How many they are! So I looked out of the window, and here arrived two big fire engines, a couple of police cars a smaller fire engine, for a total of about 50 people or more with hoses and lights and sirens ___ wow ___ I would have said when I was small, but what had happened? It took me a while to finally detect the tiniest fire in the world that was burning the bells at the entrance of the opposite condominium, probably a short circuit. I think the fireman who had to extinguish it felt quite silly with that big hose in his hands and the leading fireman giving him directions in front of him (a bucket of water would have been enough), at least that is how I interpreted it from my position. And they stayed there for a couple of hours to write down the bureaucratic papers, lights and firemen and policemen. It reminded me of Pleasantville when the guy calls the firemen for an actual fire and nobody moves, so he yells out _Cat_ (cat on the tree) and they all jump up from their chairs. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 5 14:03:09 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 20:03:09 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness References: <20050605154900.97062.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006a01c569f8$d4eec1b0$55aa3252@ANNY> Hi Rosie, agreed on point one, and bravo for that _lowmaker_ what do these laws do if not put you down, lower and lower, until you disappear? I initially read it as lawn_mowers / hair-cutters, barbers, I hated my father when he cut the grass, it is a vicious circle I think. Never tried that one on the NY subway, do they really Hal? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rosie Shkodrov To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] some silliness What's the purpose of taking roller-skating lessons then?! Cleveland lowmakers', on the other hand, seem to be reasonable people... And something I've read, but never checked... Is it true that in the state of NY nudity (on public places) is forbiden by low, but females can ride the NYC metro naked... if they wish to do so? Rosie It was dangerous to speak because he didn't know which way a sentence might tend to go, toward one thing or the logical opposite. ~ Don DeLillo *Mao II* Anny Ballardini wrote: Sorry nothing to do with poetry but with a sunny Sunday _ in my mailbox today: An Ohio law makes it a felony for an instructor of roller-skating to seduce a female pupil. In Walden, New York, it is illegal to give a drink of water to anyone unless you have a permit. It is against the law in Illinois for a conductor to collect fares without his hat on. In Branford, Connecticut, it's the law that all people must be covered from shoulder to knee before appearing on any street. It is against the law to slap a man on the back in Georgia. In Vermont, it is illegal to whistle underwater. There is a Delaware state law requiring all aviators flying over large bodies of water to carry food and drink. All taxicabs must carry a broom and shovel in the District of Columbia. In McDonald, Ohio, it is unlawful to march your goose down the main street. In Key West, Florida, turtle racing is prohibited within the city limits. It is unlawful for a man or a woman to go unshaven in Carrizozo, New Mexico. In Cleveland it is unlawful for more than two people to drink out of the same whiskey bottle. A Kansas game rule prohibits the use of mules in hunting ducks. A Fort Madison, Iowa, law requires the fire department to practice for fifteen minutes before attending a fire. It shall be unlawful to operate a machine with ice picks fitted to the wheels over the roads of Whitehall, Montana. Tim B. Gunter to which I might add that a couple of weeks ago I was here working when amidst the traffic I heard the voice of a girl exclaiming in panic: How many they are! So I looked out of the window, and here arrived two big fire engines, a couple of police cars a smaller fire engine, for a total of about 50 people or more with hoses and lights and sirens ___ wow ___ I would have said when I was small, but what had happened? It took me a while to finally detect the tiniest fire in the world that was burning the bells at the entrance of the opposite condominium, probably a short circuit. I think the fireman who had to extinguish it felt quite silly with that big hose in his hands and the leading fireman giving him directions in front of him (a bucket of water would have been enough), at least that is how I interpreted it from my position. And they stayed there for a couple of hours to write down the bureaucratic papers, lights and firemen and policemen. It reminded me of Pleasantville when the guy calls the firemen for an actual fire and nobody moves, so he yells out _Cat_ (cat o! n the tree) and they all jump up from their chairs. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jun 5 14:05:12 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:05:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Twisted Witt Message-ID: Philosophy, as we use the word, is a fight against the fascination which forms of expression exert upon us. Ludwig Wittgenstein --The Blue Book Poetry, as we use the word, is a surrender to the fascination which forms of expression exert upon us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 5 15:15:15 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:15:15 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Twisted Witt References: Message-ID: <00b701c56a02$e7d6f3b0$55aa3252@ANNY> Ah James, this quotation is already included with the other ones on the Corner under: What is Poetry? http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=287 Hope you do not mind. What a problem with so many intelligent people. I end up spending my days copying and pasting. From: JforJames at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 8:05 PM Philosophy, as we use the word, is a fight against the fascination which forms of expression exert upon us. Ludwig Wittgenstein --The Blue Book Poetry, as we use the word, is a surrender to the fascination which forms of expression exert upon us. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cc at opus0.com Sun Jun 5 16:26:31 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:26:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Pure Analyticality / ... / oracle at Delphi In-Reply-To: <200506051504.j55F4TRe023752@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Appears that everyone but a single poetess (Boeo) believes that the oracles at Delphi were delivered by women. Olen is masculine, i.e., a prophet-- mine and not Parada's mistake. > Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:52:08 -0500 > From: "Crisman Cooley" > Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Pure Analyticality / ... / oracle at Delphi > > ======== > ...after killing Python, a plague for all men, Apollo established ... > First prophetess > Phemonoe, they say, was the first prophetess of Apollo at Delphi, but the > Delphian poetess Boeo says that the Hyperboreans Pagasus 1, Olen > and Agyieus > established the oracle of Apollo at Delphi and that Olen was > Apollo's first > prophet. [corrected...] > ============= > > --from Greek Mythology site by Carlos Parada: > http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Delphi.html > C Carlos Parada & Maicar Forlag 1997 > > > Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:14:50 -0400 > > From: > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Pure Analyticality / Map of the Bear / Muse of > > Philosophy / how many girls? > > > Anny said, "Mercury, quick silver." > > > > Bob said: > > > > "Hmmm, Mercury, too. Another question: is there a muse of philosophy? > > The muses are just for the arts, though, and history, right?" > > > > I don't think there is a muse for philosophy. But in her place I would > > suggest: > > > > The oracle at Delphi, who said that Socrates was the wisest man > > in Greece. > > Socrates did not believe her and set out through questioning his fellow > > citizens to find one wiser than himself. He discovered that they > > believed > > themselves to possess a wisdom which they did not possess, and at > > last was > > forced to admit that he was indeed the wisest man in Greece. > > While others > > knew nothing, not realizing they knew nothing, Socrates knew > that he knew > > nothing, thus possessing one item of information more than any other > > Athenian. > > > > And Diotima (Symposium, 204 a - b). The speech of Diotima is a > > progressive analysis of Socrates' nature. He is an embodiment of > > the state > > of the soul which is between knowledge and ignorance in the > > eternal search > > for knowledge. Socrates is the truest illustration of the > > educational impulse. > > > > So I would suggest one or other or both of these gals. (I guess > > I don't really > > know for certain the sex -- sorry -- of the oracle at Delphi. > > Does anybody? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:49:49 +0100 > From: "Shore Poets" > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books > To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views'" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I'd prefer it if one or the other carried a Zizek introduction. Otherwise > you get the feeling he's spreading himself too thin (imagine!). > > P > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson > > Sent: 04 June 2005 17:31 > > To: lucipo at lists.ibiblio.org > > Cc: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books > > > > Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry Books (CCCP Books for > > short!) will be soon re-releasing, in lovely editions, the > > following two > > collections: > > > > The Miseries of Poetry: Traductions from the Greek, traduced > > by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson (originally > > published by Skanky Possum Press) > > > > and > > > > Dear Lacan: An Analysis in Correspondence, by Jaques Debrot, > > Jacques Lacan, and Jacques Alain-Miller (originally published > > by Oasis Press) > > > > Both books carry brief forwards by Slavoj Zizek. > > > > Ordering information can be obtained by contacting: > > > > Lesley Nolan > > Administrator, Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry > > c/o Director's Office The Fitzwilliam Museum Trumpington > > Street CAMBRIDGE > > CB2 1RB > > lan22 at can.ac.uk > > Tel: 01223 332922 > > Fax: 01223 332923 > > > > Kent > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:51:51 +0100 > From: "Shore Poets" > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books > To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views'" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I'd prefer it if one or the other carried a Zizek introduction. Otherwise > you get the feeling he's spreading himself too thin (imagine!). > > P > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson > > Sent: 04 June 2005 17:31 > > To: lucipo at lists.ibiblio.org > > Cc: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books > > > > Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry Books (CCCP Books for > > short!) will be soon re-releasing, in lovely editions, the > > following two > > collections: > > > > The Miseries of Poetry: Traductions from the Greek, traduced > > by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson (originally > > published by Skanky Possum Press) > > > > and > > > > Dear Lacan: An Analysis in Correspondence, by Jaques Debrot, > > Jacques Lacan, and Jacques Alain-Miller (originally published > > by Oasis Press) > > > > Both books carry brief forwards by Slavoj Zizek. > > > > Ordering information can be obtained by contacting: > > > > Lesley Nolan > > Administrator, Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry > > c/o Director's Office The Fitzwilliam Museum Trumpington > > Street CAMBRIDGE > > CB2 1RB > > lan22 at can.ac.uk > > Tel: 01223 332922 > > Fax: 01223 332923 > > > > Kent > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 02:49:06 +0100 > From: "Robin Hamilton" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <001d01c56970$c326f110$4e169c51 at Robin> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Sheath your claws, Peter -- or do you want me to resume work on "Internet > Discussion Lists Considered in Terms of Primate Territoriality > [with Special > Reference to The Lacan Letters]"? > > The Stone Dormouse. > > > I'd prefer it if one or the other carried a Zizek introduction. > Otherwise > > you get the feeling he's spreading himself too thin (imagine!). > > > > P > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson > > > Sent: 04 June 2005 17:31 > > > To: lucipo at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Cc: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] from CCCP Books > > > > > > Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry Books (CCCP Books for > > > short!) will be soon re-releasing, in lovely editions, the > > > following two > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 00:12:03 EDT > From: MillB at aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Japanese Translation > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <20.463ed094.2fd3d593 at aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I posted an announcement (to this list) regarding wedding poems, > and I was > so grateful for the wonderful suggestions! > > Now, I am considering, maybe, reading the Neruda poem, "The > Infinite One" > but would like a Japanese translation. > > Does anyone know of a good one? I have the English and the Spanish and > since the wedding is so multi-cultural, I was thinking a Japanese > version would > be a nice addition to the program (since the bride is Japanese). > > Thanks in advance, > > Mill > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050605/a > 11fffcf/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:58:58 +0200 > From: "Anny Ballardini" > Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness > To: "New Poetry" > Message-ID: <00e701c5699c$0c71dad0$fb2bb750 at ANNY> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Sorry nothing to do with poetry but with a sunny Sunday _ in my > mailbox today: > > > An Ohio law makes it a felony for an instructor of roller-skating > to seduce a female pupil. > > In Walden, New York, it is illegal to give a drink of water to > anyone unless you have a permit. > > It is against the law in Illinois for a conductor to collect > fares without his hat on. > > In Branford, Connecticut, it's the law that all people must be > covered from shoulder to knee before appearing on any street. > > It is against the law to slap a man on the back in Georgia. > > In Vermont, it is illegal to whistle underwater. > > There is a Delaware state law requiring all aviators flying over > large bodies of water to carry food and drink. > > All taxicabs must carry a broom and shovel in the District of Columbia. > > In McDonald, Ohio, it is unlawful to march your goose down the > main street. > > In Key West, Florida, turtle racing is prohibited within the city limits. > > It is unlawful for a man or a woman to go unshaven in Carrizozo, > New Mexico. > > In Cleveland it is unlawful for more than two people to drink out > of the same whiskey bottle. > > A Kansas game rule prohibits the use of mules in hunting ducks. > > A Fort Madison, Iowa, law requires the fire department to > practice for fifteen minutes before attending a fire. > > It shall be unlawful to operate a machine with ice picks fitted > to the wheels over the roads of Whitehall, Montana. > > > Tim B. Gunter > > to which I might add that a couple of weeks ago I was here > working when amidst the traffic I heard the voice of a girl > exclaiming in panic: > How many they are! > > So I looked out of the window, and here arrived two big fire > engines, a couple of police cars a smaller fire engine, for a > total of about 50 people or more with hoses and lights and sirens > ___ wow ___ I would have said when I was small, but what had > happened? It took me a while to finally detect the tiniest fire > in the world that was burning the bells at the entrance of the > opposite condominium, probably a short circuit. I think the > fireman who had to extinguish it felt quite silly with that big > hose in his hands and the leading fireman giving him directions > in front of him (a bucket of water would have been enough), at > least that is how I interpreted it from my position. And they > stayed there for a couple of hours to write down the bureaucratic > papers, lights and firemen and policemen. It reminded me of > Pleasantville when the guy calls the firemen for an actual fire > and nobody moves, so he yells out _Cat_ (cat on the tree) and > they all jump up from their chairs. > > > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050605/2 > dfbb72e/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 05:50:30 -0400 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <036c01c569b4$05972b30$50b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Just to check: I want to post the Mole's bear-map poem and his > history of its inception at my blog--do I have your okay, Mole? > > I take it for granted that poems put on New-Poetry are made > available in this way, but wanted to make sure. > > --Bob G. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050605/a > dc4998d/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 06:40:43 -0400 > From: Daniel Zimmerman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Cc: Daniel Zimmerman > Message-ID: <00be01c569bb$0681d520$3a95c044 at MULDER> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I like the water in the poem, Bob--those rippling wwwwww(s > the swans, leaving, leave, willowleaves bobbing astride them. > > ~ Dan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: Peter Saint-Andre ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News & Views > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:42 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time > > > > Yet it is precisely form (meter) > > and that sense of something familiar yet different and special that > > induces poetic "slow time". > > Here's a text I call a poem, Peter, than I claim should slow > time although it has no meter: > > (August afternoon)( ) - swans = willow.wwwwwww... > > It is best as one line but won't show that way on some screens, > I imagine. Of course, it has a form--two of them, in fact: the > explicit form of an algebraic equation, and the implicit form of > a haiku (Its title is "Mathemaku No. 8"). But I don't see form > as having much to do with producing a slowing of time. > Difficulty is what most does that--heightened language in > traditional poetry and/or fresh metaphors and/or artful > ambiguities, etc. Yes, "familiar yet different." In my poem, it > IS form, because its form is different for poetry though familiar > to anyone who had and remembers his algebra. Also the extreme > concision of the poem should slow a reader into solving it. > > On further thought, I see that a form not killed through > over-use might slow time if the reader recognizes it and slows > down to appreciate it, and lets it extend him into other poems > using the same form, and/or into the world that form has brought > into existence beyond the many words used in it. Still, what > most immediately and fully will slow a poem's reader is whatever > is hinderingly fresh in it. > > I prize poetry most not for slow time, though, but for rich > time. But that would not be possible without slow time.... > > --Bob G. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050605/9 > 65e6392/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:00:51 +0200 > From: "Anny Ballardini" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <01a801c569bd$d6b552b0$fb2bb750 at ANNY> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thank you Daniel for bringing this mail up, I might have skipped > it before. I also like this _poetic mathematical line_ I would > add that the blank of the second bracket brings to the whiteness > of the swan and the white light of an intense August, white > adding to the idea of a warm welcome breeze -that willow.wwwww > - sort of moving, > > but whatever, these are mere speculations. > Am I allowed to post it to my blooog ? > > (does anybody maybe know why my text is stuck all the way down > there, or how I can bring it up again - speaking of my blooog _?) > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > Non serviam. Ni dieu ni mantre. > > From: Daniel Zimmerman > Cc: Daniel Zimmerman > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 12:40 PM > > > I like the water in the poem, Bob--those rippling wwwwww(s > the swans, leaving, leave, willowleaves bobbing astride them. > > ~ Dan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: Peter Saint-Andre ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News > & Views > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:42 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time > > > > Yet it is precisely form (meter) > > and that sense of something familiar yet different and special that > > induces poetic "slow time". > > Here's a text I call a poem, Peter, than I claim should slow > time although it has no meter: > > (August afternoon)( ) - swans = willow.wwwwwww... > > It is best as one line but won't show that way on some > screens, I imagine. Of course, it has a form--two of them, in > fact: the explicit form of an algebraic equation, and the > implicit form of a haiku (Its title is "Mathemaku No. 8"). But I > don't see form as having much to do with producing a slowing of > time. Difficulty is what most does that--heightened language in > traditional poetry and/or fresh metaphors and/or artful > ambiguities, etc. Yes, "familiar yet different." In my poem, it > IS form, because its form is different for poetry though familiar > to anyone who had and remembers his algebra. Also the extreme > concision of the poem should slow a reader into solving it. > > On further thought, I see that a form not killed through > over-use might slow time if the reader recognizes it and slows > down to appreciate it, and lets it extend him into other poems > using the same form, and/or into the world that form has brought > into existence beyond the many words used in it. Still, what > most immediately and fully will slow a poem's reader is whatever > is hinderingly fresh in it. > > I prize poetry most not for slow time, though, but for rich > time. But that would not be possible without slow time.... > > --Bob G. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050605/6 > 34fc7f7/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:09:53 -0400 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <03b901c569c7$7bc40720$50b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thanks, Anny&Danny, for your comments about my .wwwwww poem. I > had become especially interested to hear about it because a vispo > friend of mine thought the ( ) too ambiguous. So I very > much like what Anny brought to that, validating it, in my view > (although I was thinking of it as absence more than whiteness, > though I now see whiteness is certainly there, too, and effective). > > As for posting it to your blog, definitely yes. Anything I post > here is for everybody to do whatever with (except make money off it). > > --Bob > > > she ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:00 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time > > > Thank you Daniel for bringing this mail up, I might have > skipped it before. I also like this _poetic mathematical line_ I > would add that the blank of the second bracket brings to the > whiteness of the swan and the white light of an intense August, > white adding to the idea of a warm welcome breeze -that > willow.wwwww - sort of moving, > > but whatever, these are mere speculations. > Am I allowed to post it to my blooog ? > > (does anybody maybe know why my text is stuck all the way down > there, or how I can bring it up again - speaking of my blooog _?) > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > Non serviam. Ni dieu ni mantre. > > From: Daniel Zimmerman > Cc: Daniel Zimmerman > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 12:40 PM > > > I like the water in the poem, Bob--those rippling wwwwww(s > the swans, leaving, leave, willowleaves bobbing astride them. > > ~ Dan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: Peter Saint-Andre ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News > & Views > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:42 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] slow time > > > > Yet it is precisely form (meter) > > and that sense of something familiar yet different and > special that > > induces poetic "slow time". > > Here's a text I call a poem, Peter, than I claim should > slow time although it has no meter: > > (August afternoon)( ) - swans = willow.wwwwwww... > > It is best as one line but won't show that way on some > screens, I imagine. Of course, it has a form--two of them, in > fact: the explicit form of an algebraic equation, and the > implicit form of a haiku (Its title is "Mathemaku No. 8"). But I > don't see form as having much to do with producing a slowing of > time. Difficulty is what most does that--heightened language in > traditional poetry and/or fresh metaphors and/or artful > ambiguities, etc. Yes, "familiar yet different." In my poem, it > IS form, because its form is different for poetry though familiar > to anyone who had and remembers his algebra. Also the extreme > concision of the poem should slow a reader into solving it. > > On further thought, I see that a form not killed through > over-use might slow time if the reader recognizes it and slows > down to appreciate it, and lets it extend him into other poems > using the same form, and/or into the world that form has brought > into existence beyond the many words used in it. Still, what > most immediately and fully will slow a poem's reader is whatever > is hinderingly fresh in it. > > I prize poetry most not for slow time, though, but for rich > time. But that would not be possible without slow time.... > > --Bob G. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050605/7 > 1fb1f12/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 05:34:51 -0700 (PDT) > From: Paul Murphy > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th > Centuries > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Message-ID: <20050605123451.30443.qmail at web40427.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > yyeah and I;m watching my ass, outof here > > --- Alphaville wrote: > > > Well, my niece just shouted down that they were > > watching Grumpy Old Men and asked what I was doing. > > At that moment. I was reading Murphy and Grumman's > > emails so I told her I was watching grumpy old men > > too. FIZZ > > > > > > > > > possibly error since I can't > > quite place you...> > > > > Uche says <"stay well away from this thread. There > > is a good chance that it is jinxed against ever > > bearing any useful content."> > > > > > > > > Paul Murphy wrote: > > > > >yes, shoe pudding is great too > > > > > >--- Alphaville wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >>me> > > >> > > >>You're a smart guy. But we all bring different > > >>tools to these texts. I > > >>did hint at it in an earlier email to Rosie. Right > > >>now, my brother is > > >>bringing his kids over. I was so indiscreet as to > > >>tell them that I had > > >>never seen Star Wars, so they are bringing it over > > >>for me to watch with > > >>them. "Its awesome. Its awesome," they keep > > telling > > >>me. They also want > > >>me to make them one of their favorite > > >>desserts---icebox cake. FIZZ > > >>Paul Murphy wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>>Murder comes in many guises. Deep vindication of > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>all > > >> > > >> > > >>>>those 'defense' engineers if only that's what > > they > > >>>>were. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>f***, you must know what this means but it beats > > me > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>Excellent! You're so right. I'll add it. FIZZ > > >>>>and so you should. by the way, I haven't read > > it > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>either... > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>Paul Murphy wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>I couldn't understand the presence of the > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>Hofstadter > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>book? this book is an application of Goedel's > > >>>>>mathematical theories to painting of Escher and > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>music > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>of Bach? Generally the list contains right of > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>centre > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>authors. the pattern evoked therein didn't > > make > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>sense > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>to me apart from merely listing the most in yer > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>face > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>Social Darwinists a la Ayn Rand and Adolf > > Hitler. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>the > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>other list was more cogent, merely list the > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>enemies > > >> > > >> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>of > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>conservatism (although Hitler may be more of a > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>friend > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>than an enemy of that conservatism). walk a > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>narrow > > >> > > >> > > >>>>>tightrope between extremes (which is really > > >>>>>impossible, isn't it? to be so purely > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>politically > > >> > > >> > > >>>>>correct? just think of all those conservatives > > >>>>>together trying not to have an erroneous right > > or > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>left > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > === message truncated === > > > > > __________________________________ > Discover Yahoo! > Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! > http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 05:35:49 -0700 (PDT) > From: Paul Murphy > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the Muses > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Message-ID: <20050605123549.31361.qmail at web40423.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > I;ma v stupid person and need it all spelled out > > --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > > > On Jun 4, 2005, at 12:53 PM, Paul Murphy wrote: > > > > > can we provide some sort of commentary to the > > names? > > > ie Terpsichore Terpsichorean and what it means > > > does Erato also form a word? > > > > Obviously. The word is eratic (a typo for erratic). > > > > Hal > > > > Actual Product May Vary from Photos > > > > Halvard Johnson > > halvard at earthlink.net > > halvard at gmail.com > > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Discover Yahoo! > Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. > Check it out! > http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:22:45 -0400 > From: "The Old Mole" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] some silliness > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <002c01c569d1$aba229e0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > OK, forget about me ever getting a job as a roller-skating > instructor in Ohio. > > But I live near Walden. I'd better be careful there, > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: New Poetry > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 2:58 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness > > > Sorry nothing to do with poetry but with a sunny Sunday _ in my > mailbox today: > > > An Ohio law makes it a felony for an instructor of > roller-skating to seduce a female pupil. > > In Walden, New York, it is illegal to give a drink of water to > anyone unless you have a permit. > > It is against the law in Illinois for a conductor to collect > fares without his hat on. > > In Branford, Connecticut, it's the law that all people must be > covered from shoulder to knee before appearing on any street. > > It is against the law to slap a man on the back in Georgia. > > In Vermont, it is illegal to whistle underwater. > > There is a Delaware state law requiring all aviators flying > over large bodies of water to carry food and drink. > > All taxicabs must carry a broom and shovel in the District of Columbia. > > In McDonald, Ohio, it is unlawful to march your goose down the > main street. > > In Key West, Florida, turtle racing is prohibited within the > city limits. > > It is unlawful for a man or a woman to go unshaven in > Carrizozo, New Mexico. > > In Cleveland it is unlawful for more than two people to drink > out of the same whiskey bottle. > > A Kansas game rule prohibits the use of mules in hunting ducks. > > A Fort Madison, Iowa, law requires the fire department to > practice for fifteen minutes before attending a fire. > > It shall be unlawful to operate a machine with ice picks > fitted to the wheels over the roads of Whitehall, Montana. > > > Tim B. Gunter > > to which I might add that a couple of weeks ago I was here > working when amidst the traffic I heard the voice of a girl > exclaiming in panic: > How many they are! > > So I looked out of the window, and here arrived two big fire > engines, a couple of police cars a smaller fire engine, for a > total of about 50 people or more with hoses and lights and sirens > ___ wow ___ I would have said when I was small, but what had > happened? It took me a while to finally detect the tiniest fire > in the world that was burning the bells at the entrance of the > opposite condominium, probably a short circuit. I think the > fireman who had to extinguish it felt quite silly with that big > hose in his hands and the leading fireman giving him directions > in front of him (a bucket of water would have been enough), at > least that is how I interpreted it from my position. And they > stayed there for a couple of hours to write down the bureaucratic > papers, lights and firemen and policemen. It reminded me of > Pleasantville when the guy calls the firemen for an actual fire > and nobody moves, so he yells out _Cat_ (cat on the tree) and > they all jump up from their chairs. > > > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050605/e > 67ce5e4/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:25:10 -0400 > From: "The Old Mole" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <005801c569d2$026ddc10$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Absolutely, Bob, and I'm honored. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:50 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... > > > Just to check: I want to post the Mole's bear-map poem and his > history of its inception at my blog--do I have your okay, Mole? > > I take it for granted that poems put on New-Poetry are made > available in this way, but wanted to make sure. > > --Bob G. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050605/9 > 4346504/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 08:12:04 -0600 > From: Uche Ogbuji > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <1117980724.8026.97.camel at malatesta> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 05:50 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote: > > o;? > > Just to check: I want to post the Mole's bear-map poem and his history > > of its inception at my blog--do I have your okay, Mole? > > > > I take it for granted that poems put on New-Poetry are made available > > in this way, but wanted to make sure. > > I kinda assumed that, too, but I still think it's polite to ask. And > it's worth noting that I have no problem whatsoever with an answer of > "no", and will respect such an answer (I haven't heard from Paul Lake > yet on the same question w.r.t "Pieces"). > > I do think I'll write a blog entry with links to the archives for the > poems I've particularly enjoyed (quite a few). > > -- > Uche Ogbuji > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:24:21 -0400 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <03ee01c569da$46c12fe0$50b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Absolutely, Bob, and I'm honored. > > Thanks, Tad. Anything to make me look like a perceptive > appreciator of poetry. It's now there. Tomorrow (maybe) a poem > of mine in, uh, retaliation. Actually, I hope, a mate--a > following of a cerebral map to your following of a visceral one. > Or something like that. > > --Bob > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:50 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... > > > Just to check: I want to post the Mole's bear-map poem and > his history of its inception at my blog--do I have your okay, Mole? > > I take it for granted that poems put on New-Poetry are made > available in this way, but wanted to make sure. > > --Bob G. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050605/2 > 794c4c7/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 11:10:55 -0400 > From: "The Old Mole" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <018501c569e0$c84038d0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > look forward to seeing it. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 10:24 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... > > > Absolutely, Bob, and I'm honored. > > Thanks, Tad. Anything to make me look like a perceptive > appreciator of poetry. It's now there. Tomorrow (maybe) a poem > of mine in, uh, retaliation. Actually, I hope, a mate--a > following of a cerebral map to your following of a visceral one. > Or something like that. > > --Bob > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:50 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... > > > Just to check: I want to post the Mole's bear-map poem and > his history of its inception at my blog--do I have your okay, Mole? > > I take it for granted that poems put on New-Poetry are made > available in this way, but wanted to make sure. > > --Bob G. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050605/e b6e9786/attachment.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 12, Issue 12 ****************************************** From snakecharmer at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 17:57:45 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:57:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness In-Reply-To: <006a01c569f8$d4eec1b0$55aa3252@ANNY> References: <20050605154900.97062.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> <006a01c569f8$d4eec1b0$55aa3252@ANNY> Message-ID: <33abf275050605145738172f47@mail.gmail.com> Last I knew, NYS law was that female toplessness was as legal as male toplessness. Or is that NYC law? I've yet to test the theory in any case, being a coward at heart. Considering the conservative bent of the nation lately, I don't think it would be prudent to try to buck the system. However, the subway thing is completely new to me. I don't think I'd do it myself, but I'd pay good money to see it. Can anyone else confirm or deny this one? And who takes roller skating lessons anyway? Really, what's the point of taking any lessons for anything that can be learned on one's own, if not for the hope of seducing one's teacher? For that matter, what's the point of teaching, if not for the hope of seducing a student one day? On 6/5/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Hi Rosie, > > agreed on point one, > and bravo for that _lowmaker_ what do these laws do if not put you down, > lower and lower, until you disappear? I initially read it as lawn_mowers / > hair-cutters, barbers, I hated my father when he cut the grass, it is a > vicious circle I think. > > Never tried that one on the NY subway, do they really Hal? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rosie Shkodrov > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:49 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] some silliness > > > What's the purpose of taking roller-skating lessons then?! > Cleveland lowmakers', on the other hand, seem to be reasonable people... > > And something I've read, but never checked... Is it true that in the state > of NY nudity (on public places) is forbiden by low, but females can ride the > NYC metro naked... if they wish to do so? > > > Rosie > > It was dangerous to speak because he didn't know which way a sentence might > tend to go, toward one thing or the logical opposite. > ~ Don DeLillo *Mao II* > > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Sorry nothing to do with poetry but with a sunny Sunday _ in my mailbox > today: > > > An Ohio law makes it a felony for an instructor of roller-skating to seduce > a female pupil. > > In Walden, New York, it is illegal to give a drink of water to anyone unless > you have a permit. > > It is against the law in Illinois for a conductor to collect fares without > his hat on. > > In Branford, Connecticut, it's the law that all people must be covered from > shoulder to knee before appearing on any street. > > It is against the law to slap a man on the back in Georgia. > > In Vermont, it is illegal to whistle underwater. > > There is a Delaware state law requiring all aviators flying over large > bodies of water to carry food and drink. > > All taxicabs must carry a broom and shovel in the District of Columbia. > > In McDonald, Ohio, it is unlawful to march your goose down the main street. > > In Key West, Florida, turtle racing is prohibited within the city limits. > > It is unlawful for a man or a woman to go unshaven in Carrizozo, New Mexico. > > In Cleveland it is unlawful for more than two people to drink out of the > same whiskey bottle. > > A Kansas game rule prohibits the use of mules in hunting ducks. > > A Fort Madison, Iowa, law requires the fire department to practice for > fifteen minutes before attending a fire. > > It shall be unlawful to operate a machine with ice picks fitted to the > wheels over the roads of Whitehall, Montana. > > > Tim B. Gunter > > to which I might add that a couple of weeks ago I was here working when > amidst the traffic I heard the voice of a girl exclaiming in panic: > How many they are! > > So I looked out of the window, and here arrived two big fire engines, a > couple of police cars a smaller fire engine, for a total of about 50 people > or more with hoses and lights and sirens ___ wow ___ I would have said when > I was small, but what had happened? It took me a while to finally detect the > tiniest fire in the world that was burning the bells at the entrance of the > opposite condominium, probably a short circuit. I think the fireman who had > to extinguish it felt quite silly with that big hose in his hands and the > leading fireman giving him directions in front of him (a bucket of water > would have been enough), at least that is how I interpreted it from my > position. And they stayed there for a couple of hours to write down the > bureaucratic papers, lights and firemen and policemen. It reminded me of > Pleasantville when the guy calls the firemen for an actual fire and nobody > moves, so he yells out _Cat_ (cat o! n the tree) and they all jump up from > their chairs. > > > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake From tad at opus40.org Sun Jun 5 18:06:07 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:06:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness References: <20050605154900.97062.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com><006a01c569f8$d4eec1b0$55aa3252@ANNY> <33abf275050605145738172f47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000b01c56a1a$c951c380$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> It's New York State law, thanks to the Topfree Ten of Rochester. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donna Casinghino" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] some silliness > Last I knew, NYS law was that female toplessness was as legal as male > toplessness. Or is that NYC law? I've yet to test the theory in any > case, being a coward at heart. Considering the conservative bent of > the nation lately, I don't think it would be prudent to try to buck > the system. > > However, the subway thing is completely new to me. I don't think I'd > do it myself, but I'd pay good money to see it. Can anyone else > confirm or deny this one? > > And who takes roller skating lessons anyway? Really, what's the point > of taking any lessons for anything that can be learned on one's own, > if not for the hope of seducing one's teacher? For that matter, what's > the point of teaching, if not for the hope of seducing a student one > day? > > > > > On 6/5/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: >> >> Hi Rosie, >> >> agreed on point one, >> and bravo for that _lowmaker_ what do these laws do if not put you down, >> lower and lower, until you disappear? I initially read it as lawn_mowers >> / >> hair-cutters, barbers, I hated my father when he cut the grass, it is a >> vicious circle I think. >> >> Never tried that one on the NY subway, do they really Hal? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Rosie Shkodrov >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views >> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:49 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] some silliness >> >> >> What's the purpose of taking roller-skating lessons then?! >> Cleveland lowmakers', on the other hand, seem to be reasonable people... >> >> And something I've read, but never checked... Is it true that in the >> state >> of NY nudity (on public places) is forbiden by low, but females can ride >> the >> NYC metro naked... if they wish to do so? >> >> >> Rosie >> >> It was dangerous to speak because he didn't know which way a sentence >> might >> tend to go, toward one thing or the logical opposite. >> ~ Don DeLillo *Mao II* >> >> Anny Ballardini wrote: >> >> Sorry nothing to do with poetry but with a sunny Sunday _ in my mailbox >> today: >> >> >> An Ohio law makes it a felony for an instructor of roller-skating to >> seduce >> a female pupil. >> >> In Walden, New York, it is illegal to give a drink of water to anyone >> unless >> you have a permit. >> >> It is against the law in Illinois for a conductor to collect fares >> without >> his hat on. >> >> In Branford, Connecticut, it's the law that all people must be covered >> from >> shoulder to knee before appearing on any street. >> >> It is against the law to slap a man on the back in Georgia. >> >> In Vermont, it is illegal to whistle underwater. >> >> There is a Delaware state law requiring all aviators flying over large >> bodies of water to carry food and drink. >> >> All taxicabs must carry a broom and shovel in the District of Columbia. >> >> In McDonald, Ohio, it is unlawful to march your goose down the main >> street. >> >> In Key West, Florida, turtle racing is prohibited within the city limits. >> >> It is unlawful for a man or a woman to go unshaven in Carrizozo, New >> Mexico. >> >> In Cleveland it is unlawful for more than two people to drink out of the >> same whiskey bottle. >> >> A Kansas game rule prohibits the use of mules in hunting ducks. >> >> A Fort Madison, Iowa, law requires the fire department to practice for >> fifteen minutes before attending a fire. >> >> It shall be unlawful to operate a machine with ice picks fitted to the >> wheels over the roads of Whitehall, Montana. >> >> >> Tim B. Gunter >> >> to which I might add that a couple of weeks ago I was here working when >> amidst the traffic I heard the voice of a girl exclaiming in panic: >> How many they are! >> >> So I looked out of the window, and here arrived two big fire engines, a >> couple of police cars a smaller fire engine, for a total of about 50 >> people >> or more with hoses and lights and sirens ___ wow ___ I would have said >> when >> I was small, but what had happened? It took me a while to finally detect >> the >> tiniest fire in the world that was burning the bells at the entrance of >> the >> opposite condominium, probably a short circuit. I think the fireman who >> had >> to extinguish it felt quite silly with that big hose in his hands and the >> leading fireman giving him directions in front of him (a bucket of water >> would have been enough), at least that is how I interpreted it from my >> position. And they stayed there for a couple of hours to write down the >> bureaucratic papers, lights and firemen and policemen. It reminded me of >> Pleasantville when the guy calls the firemen for an actual fire and >> nobody >> moves, so he yells out _Cat_ (cat o! n the tree) and they all jump up >> from >> their chairs. >> >> >> >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Sun Jun 5 19:58:48 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:58:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Banks of the Hudson Message-ID: <004e01c56a2a$87c80310$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> If anyone wants to hear it... http://sirensongs.com/mp3s/Banks_of_the_Hudson.mp3 Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 08:21:23 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:21:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Kenneth Koch Message-ID: <731bb17a05060605211cbff559@mail.gmail.com> Variations on a Theme by William Carlos Williams Kenneth Koch 1 I chopped down the house that you had been saving to live in next summer. I am sorry, but it was morning, and I had nothing to do and its wooden beams were so inviting. 2 We laughed at the hollyhocks together and then sprayed them with lye. Forgive me. I simply do not know what I am doing. 3 I gave away the money that you had been saving to live on for the next ten years. The man who asked for it was shabby and the firm March wind on the porch was so juicy and cold. 4 Last evening we went dancing and I broke your leg. Forgive me. I was clumsy, and I wanted you here in the wards, where I am a doctor. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jun 6 08:53:34 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:53:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry Message-ID: <46.6ad6f82e.2fd5a14e@aol.com> http://www.hindu.com/lr/2005/06/05/stories/2005060500280500.htm Gender counts: for better or for verse RENUKA RAJARATNAM ELIZABETH BISHOP memorably once said, "art is art and to separate it into two sexes is to emphasise values in them that are not art". Many writers and readers who resist the segregation of art on the basis of sex share Bishop's opinion that poetry transcends gender difference. On the other hand, Vicki Bertram's new critical exegesis entitled Gendering Poetry: Contemporary Women and Men Poets challenges this universal viewpoint and asserts that "Sex and gender matter in poetry. They play a significant and neglected part in the way poets write and readers read. To deny this is to facilitate a critical tradition that prioritises and naturalises men's writing and concerns". Bertram reassesses a history of old betrayals and old prejudices in this new book. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Mon Jun 6 09:00:54 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:00:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for poems... Message-ID: <19a.3546435d.2fd5a306@aol.com> thanks to all who responded to my call for poems prompted or inspired by a typo or a misheard statement. thom tammaro moorhead, mn. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jun 6 09:03:28 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:03:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitmanic Message-ID: http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2005/06/05/song_of_himself/ Specimen Days Michael Cunningham saw gold in Whitman, saw delusion and possibility both, and has thus made him the sparkling sheen that forms ''Specimen Days" and hovers throughout it. A similar tactic was in play in ''The Hours," Cunningham's 1998 novel that paid homage to Virginia Woolf. But where ''The Hours" reinvented ''Mrs. Dalloway" in three intertwined stories, ''Specimen Days" uses Whitman as ghostly muse; the novel emulates the spirit of Whitman even as it grants him quotations from madmen and thieves. It is a love song of a novel, rich and melancholy and overflowing with smartness, and if it veers off-road a bit at the peak of its race -- well, even that seems a wildness in keeping with America's bard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Jun 6 05:28:26 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 04:28:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/4/05 10:50 AM, "David Graham" wrote: > > A star that *should* be rising more, in my opinion, is Roethke's. I've been > re-reading him lately, and marveling at how much his poetry holds up. Roethke cast his spell on me in my youth and was negative influence on the poems of my master?s thesis. I had to get over him. Now I like teaching certain of his poems in my writing classes, which still seem lively and fresh even at this late date. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jun 6 12:30:32 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:30:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Indexer - Granger's World of Poetry Web Site Message-ID: <206.27c9abe.2fd5d428@aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:14:07 +0800 From: derekrogerson Subject: [job] Poetry Indexer - Granger's World of Poetry Web Site Location: New York, NY The Reference Division of Columbia University Press seeks indexers for a 6-18 month project. The successful candidates should be detail-oriented and meticulous and should have experience with databases as well as an interest in poetry. College degree required, preferably in English. Any experience in library cataloguing and/or copyediting would be useful. Indexers for the Granger's World of Poetry website will work with poetry texts to enter the titles, first lines, and last lines into a database, along with the author of the poems. A subject of the poem in question is assigned, so the indexer must be skilled at quickly skimming over the texts to pick up the main theme. Ability to work quickly and accurately in a deadline-oriented environment essential. Submit resume, cover letter, references attn: Reference Division Columbia University Press mailto:tkk4 at columbia.edu Fax: 212-459-3679 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jun 6 12:54:00 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:54:00 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry References: <46.6ad6f82e.2fd5a14e@aol.com> Message-ID: <006001c56ab8$56b66d50$05eb3652@ANNY> As an editor for me there is a difference between a man and a woman when I ask a poet to be hosted on the Corner, and their poems are different, different is the way the same themes are treated, the choice of words. I can also admit that some incredible lines written by a man that seem written by a women for their extreme _female sensitivity/intuition_ or written by a woman that seem written by a man because of their determined strength, are sometimes highly praised; but because they are inserted into a distinct context and that is why they become so important. And I also agree on the following, even if I would take away that _exclusively_ /a little too heavy. Much worse is that the work of women writers is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry http://www.hindu.com/lr/2005/06/05/stories/2005060500280500.htm Gender counts: for better or for verse RENUKA RAJARATNAM ELIZABETH BISHOP memorably once said, "art is art and to separate it into two sexes is to emphasise values in them that are not art". Many writers and readers who resist the segregation of art on the basis of sex share Bishop's opinion that poetry transcends gender difference. On the other hand, Vicki Bertram's new critical exegesis entitled Gendering Poetry: Contemporary Women and Men Poets challenges this universal viewpoint and asserts that "Sex and gender matter in poetry. They play a significant and neglected part in the way poets write and readers read. To deny this is to facilitate a critical tradition that prioritises and naturalises men's writing and concerns". Bertram reassesses a history of old betrayals and old prejudices in this new book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Mon Jun 6 13:14:58 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:14:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry References: <46.6ad6f82e.2fd5a14e@aol.com> <006001c56ab8$56b66d50$05eb3652@ANNY> Message-ID: <00a801c56abb$468f9250$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> >>>Much worse is that the work of women writers is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach.<<<< Wait a second...I missed this. WHo said that? That's nuts. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry As an editor for me there is a difference between a man and a woman when I ask a poet to be hosted on the Corner, and their poems are different, different is the way the same themes are treated, the choice of words. I can also admit that some incredible lines written by a man that seem written by a women for their extreme _female sensitivity/intuition_ or written by a woman that seem written by a man because of their determined strength, are sometimes highly praised; but because they are inserted into a distinct context and that is why they become so important. And I also agree on the following, even if I would take away that _exclusively_ /a little too heavy. Much worse is that the work of women writers is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry http://www.hindu.com/lr/2005/06/05/stories/2005060500280500.htm Gender counts: for better or for verse RENUKA RAJARATNAM ELIZABETH BISHOP memorably once said, "art is art and to separate it into two sexes is to emphasise values in them that are not art". Many writers and readers who resist the segregation of art on the basis of sex share Bishop's opinion that poetry transcends gender difference. On the other hand, Vicki Bertram's new critical exegesis entitled Gendering Poetry: Contemporary Women and Men Poets challenges this universal viewpoint and asserts that "Sex and gender matter in poetry. They play a significant and neglected part in the way poets write and readers read. To deny this is to facilitate a critical tradition that prioritises and naturalises men's writing and concerns". Bertram reassesses a history of old betrayals and old prejudices in this new book. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jun 6 13:37:19 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:37:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry References: <46.6ad6f82e.2fd5a14e@aol.com><006001c56ab8$56b66d50$05eb3652@ANNY> <00a801c56abb$468f9250$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <089f01c56abe$63c802f0$4cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >>>Much worse is that the work of women writers is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach.<<<< Wait a second...I missed this. WHo said that? That's nuts. Tad Richards I'm sure Anny is saying: "Much worse is that work of women writers (which) is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach." Hard to disagree with that. --Bob www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry As an editor for me there is a difference between a man and a woman when I ask a poet to be hosted on the Corner, and their poems are different, different is the way the same themes are treated, the choice of words. I can also admit that some incredible lines written by a man that seem written by a women for their extreme _female sensitivity/intuition_ or written by a woman that seem written by a man because of their determined strength, are sometimes highly praised; but because they are inserted into a distinct context and that is why they become so important. And I also agree on the following, even if I would take away that _exclusively_ /a little too heavy. Much worse is that the work of women writers is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry http://www.hindu.com/lr/2005/06/05/stories/2005060500280500.htm Gender counts: for better or for verse RENUKA RAJARATNAM ELIZABETH BISHOP memorably once said, "art is art and to separate it into two sexes is to emphasise values in them that are not art". Many writers and readers who resist the segregation of art on the basis of sex share Bishop's opinion that poetry transcends gender difference. On the other hand, Vicki Bertram's new critical exegesis entitled Gendering Poetry: Contemporary Women and Men Poets challenges this universal viewpoint and asserts that "Sex and gender matter in poetry. They play a significant and neglected part in the way poets write and readers read. To deny this is to facilitate a critical tradition that prioritises and naturalises men's writing and concerns". Bertram reassesses a history of old betrayals and old prejudices in this new book. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jun 6 13:45:20 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:45:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman Message-ID: <1c6.2a0e36c2.2fd5e5b0@aol.com> Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According to some critics, subject is less important than what you do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? Finnegan In a message dated 6/6/2005 12:30:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: On 6/4/05 10:50 AM, "David Graham" wrote: A star that *should* be rising more, in my opinion, is Roethke's. I've been re-reading him lately, and marveling at how much his poetry holds up. Roethke cast his spell on me in my youth and was negative influence on the poems of my master?s thesis. I had to get over him. Now I like teaching certain of his poems in my writing classes, which still seem lively and fresh even at this late date. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stpeter at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 13:45:37 2005 From: stpeter at gmail.com (Peter Saint-Andre) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:45:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Muses In-Reply-To: <20050604165319.24078.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> References: <010301c56921$c6297490$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20050604165319.24078.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <269c47c0506061045414ac31a@mail.gmail.com> FWIW, I once blogged about words derived from names of the Muses: http://www.saint-andre.com/blog/2002-11.html#2002-11-15T13:23 Peter On 6/4/05, Paul Murphy wrote: > can we provide some sort of commentary to the names? > ie Terpsichore Terpsichorean and what it means > does Erato also form a word? From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jun 6 13:47:00 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:47:00 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry References: <46.6ad6f82e.2fd5a14e@aol.com><006001c56ab8$56b66d50$05eb3652@ANNY><00a801c56abb$468f9250$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <089f01c56abe$63c802f0$4cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00ac01c56abf$bdd2be10$05eb3652@ANNY> Ah, quoting from the text from The Hindu Vicki Bertram speaking, or better, the author of the article Renuka Rajaratnam who is reviewing the book: _gendering poetry_ by V. Bertram To which I added: And I also agree on the following, even if I would take away that _exclusively_ /a little too heavy. Thanks Bob, I appreciate your help. Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry >>>Much worse is that the work of women writers is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach.<<<< Wait a second...I missed this. WHo said that? That's nuts. Tad Richards I'm sure Anny is saying: "Much worse is that work of women writers (which) is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach." Hard to disagree with that. --Bob www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry As an editor for me there is a difference between a man and a woman when I ask a poet to be hosted on the Corner, and their poems are different, different is the way the same themes are treated, the choice of words. I can also admit that some incredible lines written by a man that seem written by a women for their extreme _female sensitivity/intuition_ or written by a woman that seem written by a man because of their determined strength, are sometimes highly praised; but because they are inserted into a distinct context and that is why they become so important. And I also agree on the following, even if I would take away that _exclusively_ /a little too heavy. Much worse is that the work of women writers is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry http://www.hindu.com/lr/2005/06/05/stories/2005060500280500.htm Gender counts: for better or for verse RENUKA RAJARATNAM ELIZABETH BISHOP memorably once said, "art is art and to separate it into two sexes is to emphasise values in them that are not art". Many writers and readers who resist the segregation of art on the basis of sex share Bishop's opinion that poetry transcends gender difference. On the other hand, Vicki Bertram's new critical exegesis entitled Gendering Poetry: Contemporary Women and Men Poets challenges this universal viewpoint and asserts that "Sex and gender matter in poetry. They play a significant and neglected part in the way poets write and readers read. To deny this is to facilitate a critical tradition that prioritises and naturalises men's writing and concerns". Bertram reassesses a history of old betrayals and old prejudices in this new book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jun 6 13:47:31 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:47:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Kumin's life on PoBiz Farm Message-ID: http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050605/REPOSITORY/5 06060331/1001/NEWS01 She's at home in the hills By MIKE PRIDE Monitor editor June 05. 2005 8:00AM Forty-three years ago, at an old farm, Pulitzer-winning poet Maxine Kumin found what she was looking for. Not five minutes from Interstate 89, you head up the hill on a bumpy dirt road and pass a hand-painted sign nailed to a tree. The sign says Pobiz Farm. In a moment you are there, in a clearing, where the road squeezes between an airy farmhouse and a barn and paddock. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Mon Jun 6 13:48:55 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:48:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry References: <46.6ad6f82e.2fd5a14e@aol.com><006001c56ab8$56b66d50$05eb3652@ANNY><00a801c56abb$468f9250$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <089f01c56abe$63c802f0$4cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00d501c56ac0$050a8dd0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> That I'd be OK with. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry >>>Much worse is that the work of women writers is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach.<<<< Wait a second...I missed this. WHo said that? That's nuts. Tad Richards I'm sure Anny is saying: "Much worse is that work of women writers (which) is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach." Hard to disagree with that. --Bob www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry As an editor for me there is a difference between a man and a woman when I ask a poet to be hosted on the Corner, and their poems are different, different is the way the same themes are treated, the choice of words. I can also admit that some incredible lines written by a man that seem written by a women for their extreme _female sensitivity/intuition_ or written by a woman that seem written by a man because of their determined strength, are sometimes highly praised; but because they are inserted into a distinct context and that is why they become so important. And I also agree on the following, even if I would take away that _exclusively_ /a little too heavy. Much worse is that the work of women writers is exclusively focused on feminism, making them victims of a narrow, isolationist approach. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry http://www.hindu.com/lr/2005/06/05/stories/2005060500280500.htm Gender counts: for better or for verse RENUKA RAJARATNAM ELIZABETH BISHOP memorably once said, "art is art and to separate it into two sexes is to emphasise values in them that are not art". Many writers and readers who resist the segregation of art on the basis of sex share Bishop's opinion that poetry transcends gender difference. On the other hand, Vicki Bertram's new critical exegesis entitled Gendering Poetry: Contemporary Women and Men Poets challenges this universal viewpoint and asserts that "Sex and gender matter in poetry. They play a significant and neglected part in the way poets write and readers read. To deny this is to facilitate a critical tradition that prioritises and naturalises men's writing and concerns". Bertram reassesses a history of old betrayals and old prejudices in this new book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jun 6 14:17:56 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:17:56 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gender matters in poetry References: <46.6ad6f82e.2fd5a14e@aol.com><006001c56ab8$56b66d50$05eb3652@ANNY><00a801c56abb$468f9250$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><089f01c56abe$63c802f0$4cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00d501c56ac0$050a8dd0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00f501c56ac4$107ed910$05eb3652@ANNY> I just put Chris Mansell on the Poets' Corner, I think this is a poem that only a woman-poet could write: after a while an honest spoon takes an honest egg each lick sticking to each last bit of silver making black chemistry - the cause of cancer no doubt - and Bernard Peiffer playing on the hi tech earphones songs old when I was born this honest spoon with its honest nickel glowing through - yep old - old when I was born too this honest brain sticking to the song making a sort of night chemistry and you your brazen fear - yep the cause of love no doubt - showing through and this honest spoon smoothes it out like piano music yep ? Chris Mansell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jun 6 14:17:57 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:17:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman References: <1c6.2a0e36c2.2fd5e5b0@aol.com> Message-ID: <08d701c56ac4$136b71b0$4cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According to some critics, subject is less important than what you do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? Finnegan I dunno about the range of the greats, but I never thought of Roethke as not widely ranging. I think his lyrical largeness bothers critics. He was also (sorry, folks) much more technically innovative than Bishop or Lowell. He was much admired by James Dickey, another poet whose reputation seems on the wane. I think it's just a matter of either's finding an influential critic. I think after poets die, their reputations decay until "rediscovered" by some critic with an audience--IF they have the bona fides. I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and foolishly, in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Jun 6 15:21:19 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:21:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Concrete Rail Poetry References: <1c6.2a0e36c2.2fd5e5b0@aol.com> <08d701c56ac4$136b71b0$4cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00b801c56acc$eb9f85a0$df8f9a51@Robin> http://uk.geocities.com/robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com/index.html Follow the links that read Concrete Rail or CRO [whatever]. A Stoned Dormouse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jun 6 16:27:24 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:27:24 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner Message-ID: <015b01c56ad6$2657a1b0$05eb3652@ANNY> Philosophy, as we use the word, is a fight against the fascination which forms of expression exert upon us. Ludwig Wittgenstein --The Blue Book Poetry, as we use the word, is a surrender to the fascination which forms of expression exert upon us. James Finnegan http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=287 Dear All, here is my latest update of the Poets' Corner with my thank you to those whom I cherish and accepted my invitation. Eva Salzman http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=159 Dennis Barone http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=160 Alan Halsey http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=161 Bob Grumman http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=162 Landis Everson http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=163 James William Austin http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=164 Leevi Lehto http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=166 Didi Menendez http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=167 Janet McCann http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=168 Berty Skuber http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=169 Susan Rich http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=170 Chris Mansell http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=171 * * * * * * * * * * * * I opened a section for: Mother http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=165 with the following valuable contributions by: James Finnegan http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1114 Anna Marie Guterl http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1115 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1125 Jos? Kozer http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1117 Deborah Russell http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1118 Mair?ad Byrne http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1119 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1120 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1121 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1122 Riccarda Turrina http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1123 Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1124 Douglas Clark http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1128 Alan Sondheim http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1129 Ruth Fainlight http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1140 Jill Chan http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1141 And finally my translation into Italian of Jos? Kozer's : Gram?tica de mam? http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1142 * * * * * * * * * * * * Further poems and/or writings by previously featured poets - Douglas Clark Deathsong - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1070 Vision - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1071 Feasting - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1098 The ruined chapel - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1104 Names - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1116 Triad: The Magicians - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1138 Magicians - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1139 Susan's garden - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1144 Merlin in Winter - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1178 Pierre Joris Robert Creeley & Pierre Joris - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1072 Under the section on Father Karl Young - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1126 Stephen Vincent - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1127 Tad Richards DESERTIONS - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1130 Alan Sondheim The Apt Word - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1143 - in the higher elevations of the Wasatch Mountains near Salt Lake City - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1184 Hei! Spacing of Enlightenment - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1185 Mair?ad Byrne DOWNTOWN CROSSING - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1174 TEDIUM - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1175 THE RUSSIAN WEEK - http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1176 * * * * * * * * * * * * (TRANS / LATIONS) and Mair?ad Byrne with her new Italian coat, my fault...: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=27 she will soon be featured also on the Italian site Poiein hosted by Gianmario Lucini (http://www.loso.it/poiein//) as well as my attempt of bringing Landis Everson into Italian, Ben Mazer's idea thanks to whom I have a new friend: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=26 * * * * * * * * * * * * PHOTO With a special thank you also to Halvard Johnson for having forwarded his New York Dante I added to his Benevolence http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=114 * * * * * * * * * * * Thanks to Giuseppe Perna and to Vanni and his team, the following links have been opened, with my apologies for any inconvenience with the new links: POETS ON POETS http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets Laurie Anderson & Amelia Earhart by me - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=9 Bertran de Born by Jon Corelis - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=10 Karin Boye by Michael Peverett - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=21 Callimachus by Jon Corelis - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=11 Jon Corelis by me - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=28 Landis Everson by me - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=26 Horace : Regulus by Jon Corelis - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=12 Arni Ibsen by me - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=25 Katia Kapovich by me - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=24 S.K. Kelen by me - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=31 Jos? Kozer by Mark Weiss - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=19 Jos? Lezama Lima by Mark Weiss - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=18 Nikephoros Vrettakos by Jon Corelis - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=16 Ovid by Jon Corelis - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=14 Sulpicia by Jon Corelis - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=14 C?sar Vallejo by Rebecca Seiferle - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=17 REVIEWS http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poemreviews I therefore moved my reviews under this section that now features: Mair?ad Byrne's Nelson & The Huruburu Bird - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=246 Kjiell Espmark's L'altra vita - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=243 Ruth Fainlight's La Verit? sulla Sibilla - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poemreviews&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=32 Jiri Flajsar's Epiphany in American Poetry - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poemreviews&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=28 Fulcrum 2nd edition - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poemreviews&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=38 David Howard's How to Occupy Our Selves - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=242 Freddy Longo's Poeti a Cuba - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=247 Nathaniel Mackey's Four for Glenn - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=241 Cees Nooteboom's Le Porte della Notte - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=245 Paolo Ruffilli's Preparativi per la partenza - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=238 Daniel Zimmerman's POST-AVANT - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=248 Harriet Zinnes' Drawing On The Wall - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poemreviews/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=239 And also the link to the numerous LINKS is almost ready - http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetlinks Almost sure I forgot something - or someone, my best Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 17:40:09 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman In-Reply-To: <08d701c56ac4$136b71b0$4cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050606214009.42996.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> I personally don't believe in critics, but in teachers (but I'm extensively harmed, as I was recently informed!)... I'm pretty sure all of you have more influence over your students (for good or bad!) than any critic would have over them. Back to the subject of seduction and learning! Rosie Bob Grumman wrote: Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According to some critics, subject is less important than what you do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? Finnegan I dunno about the range of the greats, but I never thought of Roethke as not widely ranging. I think his lyrical largeness bothers critics. He was also (sorry, folks) much more technically innovative than Bishop or Lowell. He was much admired by James Dickey, another poet whose reputation seems on the wane. I think it's just a matter of either's finding an influential critic. I think after poets die, their reputations decay until "rediscovered" by some critic with an audience--IF they have the bona fides. I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and foolishly, in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 19:53:01 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:53:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman In-Reply-To: <20050606214009.42996.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <08d701c56ac4$136b71b0$4cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20050606214009.42996.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33abf2750506061653f3a6ac8@mail.gmail.com> Here here! I wholeheartedly agree! Seduction and learning go hand in hand. What's the fun of one without the challenge of the other? And I'm still of the mind that a poem's subject and form are inseparable. You can have a great subject and a lousy form, or a great form with a lousy subject. There's benefits in both cases, because you can look just at the technical skill, or just at the interesting choice and angle of subject matter. But like any great work of art, a poem is only great when both components are in harmony. But then, I still can't get them right. :) And I'm no critic, either. So let's go roller skating instead. I never learned, myself. Anyone want to teach me how? On 6/6/05, Rosie Shkodrov wrote: > I personally don't believe in critics, but in teachers (but I'm extensively > harmed, as I was recently informed!)... I'm pretty sure all of you have more > influence over your students (for good or bad!) than any critic would have > over them. Back to the subject of seduction and learning! > > Rosie > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower > range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According > to some critics, subject is less important than what you > do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the > place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? > Finnegan > > I dunno about the range of the greats, but I never thought of Roethke as not > widely ranging. I think his lyrical largeness bothers critics. He was also > (sorry, folks) much more technically innovative than Bishop or Lowell. > > He was much admired by James Dickey, another poet whose reputation seems on > the wane. I think it's just a matter of either's finding an influential > critic. I think after poets die, their reputations decay until > "rediscovered" by some critic with an audience--IF they have the bona fides. > > I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and foolishly, > in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. > > --Bob G._______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake From cc at opus0.com Mon Jun 6 22:11:43 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:11:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness In-Reply-To: <200506061600.j56G04Re002951@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: There must be a compelling reason to swerve away from auto-didacticism, which does well in almost every case, except that seducing oneself makes so little sense. > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:57:45 -0400 > From: Donna Casinghino > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] some silliness > Last I knew, NYS law was that female toplessness was as legal as male > toplessness. Or is that NYC law? I've yet to test the theory in any > case, being a coward at heart. Considering the conservative bent of > the nation lately, I don't think it would be prudent to try to buck > the system. > > However, the subway thing is completely new to me. I don't think I'd > do it myself, but I'd pay good money to see it. Can anyone else > confirm or deny this one? > > And who takes roller skating lessons anyway? Really, what's the point > of taking any lessons for anything that can be learned on one's own, > if not for the hope of seducing one's teacher? For that matter, what's > the point of teaching, if not for the hope of seducing a student one > day? > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 7 02:20:23 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:20:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] some silliness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A53CA7.6060909@ix.netcom.com> Saddam Faces Trial for Range of Crimes He Committed As U.S. Stooge: Friend And Business Partner Rumsfeld To Testify On Behalf Of Hussein: Al-Qaeda Steals 200 Classic Cars From Saudi Prince; Uses Them In Suicide Bomb Attacks: American Values Tested As Expensive One of A Kind Cars Become Instruments Of Islamic Road Rage: Bush Bitter About Attacks On "The Machine That Defeated Ozone." Rumsfeld Voted "Sexiest Infidel" By Iraqi Interim Government By CHAG GAWOOF Assassinated Press Writer June 6, 2005 http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/gaw.htm > > > > From tad at opus40.org Tue Jun 7 13:28:37 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:28:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Public Appearances by others Message-ID: <004701c56b86$5a15b950$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Chris Stroffolino, to be specific. If he won't blow his own horn, I will. He' s playing some gigs on the east coast, including Albany Friday night and Northampton Saturday. I'm going to try to make the Saturday gig -- but -- Chris -- I need to know exactly when and where. And you might give the rest of your itinerary, too. Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cc at opus0.com Tue Jun 7 13:28:31 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:28:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman In-Reply-To: <200506071600.j57G03Re009870@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > Anyone want to teach me how? Sure, I will. If neither of us act like teachers maybe we could avoid being arrested. > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:53:01 -0400 > From: Donna Casinghino > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Message-ID: <33abf2750506061653f3a6ac8 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Here here! I wholeheartedly agree! > > Seduction and learning go hand in hand. What's the fun of one without > the challenge of the other? > > And I'm still of the mind that a poem's subject and form are > inseparable. You can have a great subject and a lousy form, or a great > form with a lousy subject. There's benefits in both cases, because you > can look just at the technical skill, or just at the interesting > choice and angle of subject matter. But like any great work of art, a > poem is only great when both components are in harmony. > > But then, I still can't get them right. :) And I'm no critic, either. > So let's go roller skating instead. I never learned, myself. > Anyone want to teach me how? > > > On 6/6/05, Rosie Shkodrov wrote: > > I personally don't believe in critics, but in teachers (but I'm > extensively > > harmed, as I was recently informed!)... I'm pretty sure all of > you have more > > influence over your students (for good or bad!) than any critic > would have > > over them. Back to the subject of seduction and learning! > > > > Rosie > > > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower > > range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According > > to some critics, subject is less important than what you > > do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the > > place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? > > Finnegan > > > > I dunno about the range of the greats, but I never thought of > Roethke as not > > widely ranging. I think his lyrical largeness bothers critics. > He was also > > (sorry, folks) much more technically innovative than Bishop or Lowell. > > > > He was much admired by James Dickey, another poet whose > reputation seems on > > the wane. I think it's just a matter of either's finding an influential > > critic. I think after poets die, their reputations decay until > > "rediscovered" by some critic with an audience--IF they have > the bona fides. > > > > I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and > foolishly, > > in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. > > > > --Bob G._______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake > From snakecharmer at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 14:06:40 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:06:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman In-Reply-To: References: <200506071600.j57G03Re009870@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <33abf275050607110672c0028a@mail.gmail.com> Cris: Arrested on what charge? We're both consenting adults who just happen to have a great, passionate love for roller skating. Very passionate. On 6/7/05, Crisman Cooley wrote: > > > Anyone want to teach me how? > > Sure, I will. If neither of us act like teachers maybe we could avoid > being > arrested. > > > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:53:01 -0400 > > From: Donna Casinghino > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > > > Message-ID: <33abf2750506061653f3a6ac8 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Here here! I wholeheartedly agree! > > > > Seduction and learning go hand in hand. What's the fun of one without > > the challenge of the other? > > > > And I'm still of the mind that a poem's subject and form are > > inseparable. You can have a great subject and a lousy form, or a great > > form with a lousy subject. There's benefits in both cases, because you > > can look just at the technical skill, or just at the interesting > > choice and angle of subject matter. But like any great work of art, a > > poem is only great when both components are in harmony. > > > > But then, I still can't get them right. :) And I'm no critic, either. > > So let's go roller skating instead. I never learned, myself. > > Anyone want to teach me how? > > > > > > > On 6/6/05, Rosie Shkodrov wrote: > > > I personally don't believe in critics, but in teachers (but I'm > > extensively > > > harmed, as I was recently informed!)... I'm pretty sure all of > > you have more > > > influence over your students (for good or bad!) than any critic > > would have > > > over them. Back to the subject of seduction and learning! > > > > > > Rosie > > > > > > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower > > > range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According > > > to some critics, subject is less important than what you > > > do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the > > > place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? > > > Finnegan > > > > > > I dunno about the range of the greats, but I never thought of > > Roethke as not > > > widely ranging. I think his lyrical largeness bothers critics. > > He was also > > > (sorry, folks) much more technically innovative than Bishop or Lowell. > > > > > > He was much admired by James Dickey, another poet whose > > reputation seems on > > > the wane. I think it's just a matter of either's finding an > influential > > > critic. I think after poets die, their reputations decay until > > > "rediscovered" by some critic with an audience--IF they have > > the bona fides. > > > > > > I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and > > foolishly, > > > in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. > > > > > > --Bob G._______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------- > > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William > Blake > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Jun 7 14:36:24 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:36:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman References: <200506071600.j57G03Re009870@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <33abf275050607110672c0028a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007001c56b8f$d1d8aa20$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Should roller skating be permitted between consenting adults? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Casinghino To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman Cris: Arrested on what charge? We're both consenting adults who just happen to have a great, passionate love for roller skating. Very passionate. On 6/7/05, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Anyone want to teach me how? Sure, I will. If neither of us act like teachers maybe we could avoid being arrested. > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:53:01 -0400 > From: Donna Casinghino > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Message-ID: < 33abf2750506061653f3a6ac8 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Here here! I wholeheartedly agree! > > Seduction and learning go hand in hand. What's the fun of one without > the challenge of the other? > > And I'm still of the mind that a poem's subject and form are > inseparable. You can have a great subject and a lousy form, or a great > form with a lousy subject. There's benefits in both cases, because you > can look just at the technical skill, or just at the interesting > choice and angle of subject matter. But like any great work of art, a > poem is only great when both components are in harmony. > > But then, I still can't get them right. :) And I'm no critic, either. > So let's go roller skating instead. I never learned, myself. > Anyone want to teach me how? > > > On 6/6/05, Rosie Shkodrov < shkodrov at yahoo.com> wrote: > > I personally don't believe in critics, but in teachers (but I'm > extensively > > harmed, as I was recently informed!)... I'm pretty sure all of > you have more > > influence over your students (for good or bad!) than any critic > would have > > over them. Back to the subject of seduction and learning! > > > > Rosie > > > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower > > range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According > > to some critics, subject is less important than what you > > do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the > > place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? > > Finnegan > > > > I dunno about the range of the greats, but I never thought of > Roethke as not > > widely ranging. I think his lyrical largeness bothers critics. > He was also > > (sorry, folks) much more technically innovative than Bishop or Lowell. > > > > He was much admired by James Dickey, another poet whose > reputation seems on > > the wane. I think it's just a matter of either's finding an influential > > critic. I think after poets die, their reputations decay until > > "rediscovered" by some critic with an audience--IF they have > the bona fides. > > > > I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and > foolishly, > > in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. > > > > --Bob G._______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 14:57:20 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman In-Reply-To: <33abf275050607110672c0028a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050607185720.63561.qmail@web54601.mail.yahoo.com> Passion itself should be illegal... if it's not already! (How about poetry?) I'm wondering... how can one tell the difference between a "passionate love for roller skating" from "sexual harassment"? Donna Casinghino wrote: Cris: Arrested on what charge? We're both consenting adults who just happen to have a great, passionate love for roller skating. Very passionate. On 6/7/05, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Anyone want to teach me how? Sure, I will. If neither of us act like teachers maybe we could avoid being arrested. > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:53:01 -0400 > From: Donna Casinghino > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Message-ID: < 33abf2750506061653f3a6ac8 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Here here! I wholeheartedly agree! > > Seduction and learning go hand in hand. What's the fun of one without > the challenge of the other? > > And I'm still of the mind that a poem's subject and form are > inseparable. You can have a great subject and a lousy form, or a great > form with a lousy subject. There's benefits in both cases, because you > can look just at the technical skill, or just at the interesting > choice and angle of subject matter. But like any great work of art, a > poem is only great when both components are in harmony. > > But then, I still can't get them right. :) And I'm no critic, either. > So let's go roller skating instead. I never learned, myself. > Anyone want to teach me how? > > > On 6/6/05, Rosie Shkodrov < shkodrov at yahoo.com> wrote: > > I personally don't believe in critics, but in teachers (but I'm > extensively > > harmed, as I was recently informed!)... I'm pretty sure all of > you have more > > influence over your students (for good or bad!) than any critic > would have > > over them. Back to the subject of seduction and learning! > > > > Rosie > > > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower > > range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According > > to some critics, subject is less important than what you > > do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the > > place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? > > Finnegan > > > > I dunno about the range of the greats, but I never thought of > Roethke as not > > widely ranging. I think his lyrical largeness bothers critics. > He was also > > (sorry, folks) much more technically innovative than Bishop or Lowell. > > > > He was much admired by James Dickey, another poet whose > reputation seems on > > the wane. I think it's just a matter of either's finding an influential > > critic. I think after poets die, their reputations decay until > > "rediscovered" by some critic with an audience--IF they have > the bona fides. > > > > I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and > foolishly, > > in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. > > > > --Bob G._______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 15:07:13 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:07:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman In-Reply-To: <20050607185720.63561.qmail@web54601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <33abf275050607110672c0028a@mail.gmail.com> <20050607185720.63561.qmail@web54601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33abf2750506071207401d9b02@mail.gmail.com> On 6/7/05, Rosie Shkodrov wrote: > > Passion itself should be illegal... if it's not already! (How about > poetry?) > I'm wondering... how can one tell the difference between a "passionate > love for roller skating" from "sexual harassment"? > I think it's all a matter of how much grease you use on the wheels. Passion must have already been outlawed. The world is coming to an end, the liberals are turning conservative: The Mole is worried about what is and isn't allowed between consenting adults. On 6/7/05, Rosie Shkodrov wrote: > > Passion itself should be illegal... if it's not already! (How about > poetry?) > I'm wondering... how can one tell the difference between a "passionate > love for roller skating" from "sexual harassment"? > > > *Donna Casinghino * wrote: > > Cris: Arrested on what charge? We're both consenting adults who just > happen to have a great, passionate love for roller skating. Very passionate. > > On 6/7/05, Crisman Cooley wrote: > > > > > Anyone want to teach me how? > > > > Sure, I will. If neither of us act like teachers maybe we could avoid > > being > > arrested. > > > > > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:53:01 -0400 > > > From: Donna Casinghino > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > > > > > Message-ID: < 33abf2750506061653f3a6ac8 at mail.gmail.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > > > Here here! I wholeheartedly agree! > > > > > > Seduction and learning go hand in hand. What's the fun of one without > > > the challenge of the other? > > > > > > And I'm still of the mind that a poem's subject and form are > > > inseparable. You can have a great subject and a lousy form, or a great > > > form with a lousy subject. There's benefits in both cases, because you > > > > > can look just at the technical skill, or just at the interesting > > > choice and angle of subject matter. But like any great work of art, a > > > poem is only great when both components are in harmony. > > > > > > But then, I still can't get them right. :) And I'm no critic, either. > > > So let's go roller skating instead. I never learned, myself. > > > Anyone want to teach me how? > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/6/05, Rosie Shkodrov < shkodrov at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > I personally don't believe in critics, but in teachers (but I'm > > > extensively > > > > harmed, as I was recently informed!)... I'm pretty sure all of > > > you have more > > > > influence over your students (for good or bad!) than any critic > > > would have > > > > over them. Back to the subject of seduction and learning! > > > > > > > > Rosie > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower > > > > range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According > > > > to some critics, subject is less important than what you > > > > do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the > > > > place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? > > > > Finnegan > > > > > > > > I dunno about the range of the greats, but I never thought of > > > Roethke as not > > > > widely ranging. I think his lyrical largeness bothers critics. > > > He was also > > > > (sorry, folks) much more technically innovative than Bishop or > > Lowell. > > > > > > > > He was much admired by James Dickey, another poet whose > > > reputation seems on > > > > the wane. I think it's just a matter of either's finding an > > influential > > > > critic. I think after poets die, their reputations decay until > > > > "rediscovered" by some critic with an audience--IF they have > > > the bona fides. > > > > > > > > I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and > > > foolishly, > > > > in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. > > > > > > > > --Bob G._______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William > > Blake > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Jun 7 15:11:12 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:11:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 68 Poets -- MiPoesias Magazine -- guest editor / gabriel gudding Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050607141105.029fda40@mail.ilstu.edu> M i P o e s i a s - Revista Literaria S U M M E R 2005 -- Guest Editor / Gabriel Gudding Original Poems, Translations, Interviews http://www.mipoesias.com/Volume19Issue3Gudding/ Featuring: Alan Sondheim Poems by MICHAEL McCLURE JEROME ROTHENBERG JOANNE KYGER CHRISTIAN B?K RAE ARMANTROUT RON SILLIMAN DAVID LEHMAN AMY GERSTLER PAUL VIOLI LARA GLENUM BRIAN KIM STEFANS JOSH COREY LISA JARNOT DALE SMITH KENT JOHNSON JENNY BOULLY LAURA MULLEN K. SILEM MOHAMMAD SIMON PERCHIK JENNIFER K. DICK JOANNA CATHERINE SCOTT DENISE DUHAMEL HEIDI LYNN STAPLES PANCY MAURER-ALVAREZ JENNA CARDINALE JASPER BERNES ROBERT FERNANDEZ REB LIVINGSTON ALLYSON SALAZAR GEOFF BOUVIER RONALD PALMER PETER RAMOS DANIEL BORZUTZKY JOE AMATO JEFF HARRISON KASS FLEISHER ANNY BALLARDINI MICHAEL ROTHENBERG CHRIS PUSATERI JORGE GITART PETER DAVIS KARL PARKER CATHERINE DALY HOLLY IGLESIAS KATIA KAPOVICH AARON McCOLLOUGH STANDARD SCHAEFER LOUISE LANDES LEVI CARL MARTIN RANDALL WILLIAMS JOHN BEER JUSTIN LACOUR NGO TU LAP AMY KING KEN RUMBLE JULIAN SEMILIAN EDEN OSUCH RACHEL LODEN ELIZABETH HATMAKER Translations -- Ancient Greek, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Romanian Luis de Sandoval Zapata Garcilaso de la Vega translated by Roberto Tejada Virginia Guti?rrez Berner translated by Jorge Guitart Reina Mar?a Rodr?guez translated by Kristin Dykstra Caridad Atencio translated by Holly Iglesias Mien Dang translated by Linh Dinh Sophocles translated by John Tipton Rito Ram?n Aroche translated by Kristin Dykstra and Henrry Lezama Gellu Naum Gherasim Luca Tristan Tzara translated by Julian Semilian INTERVIEWS Reb Livingston Geoff Bouvier Ronald Palmer Ron Silliman David Lehman Denise Duhamel Heidi Lynn Staples Jasper Bernes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Jun 7 15:26:29 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:26:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman References: <20050607185720.63561.qmail@web54601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009001c56b96$d11f19f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Rosie...you'll have to come roller skating with me sometime. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Rosie Shkodrov To: Donna Casinghino ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman Passion itself should be illegal... if it's not already! (How about poetry?) I'm wondering... how can one tell the difference between a "passionate love for roller skating" from "sexual harassment"? Donna Casinghino wrote: Cris: Arrested on what charge? We're both consenting adults who just happen to have a great, passionate love for roller skating. Very passionate. On 6/7/05, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Anyone want to teach me how? Sure, I will. If neither of us act like teachers maybe we could avoid being arrested. > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:53:01 -0400 > From: Donna Casinghino > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Message-ID: < 33abf2750506061653f3a6ac8 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Here here! I wholeheartedly agree! > > Seduction and le! arning go hand in hand. What's the fun of one without > the challenge of the other? > > And I'm still of the mind that a poem's subject and form are > inseparable. You can have a great subject and a lousy form, or a great > form with a lousy subject. There's benefits in both cases, because you > can look just at the technical skill, or just at the interesting > choice and angle of subject matter. But like any great work of art, a > poem is only great when both components are in harmony. > > But then, I still can't get them right. :) And I'm no critic, either. > So let's go roller skating instead. I never learned, myself. > Anyone want to teach me how? > > > On 6/6/05, Rosie Shkodrov < shkodrov at yahoo.com> wrote: > > I personally don't believe in critics, but in teachers (but I'm > extensively > > harmed, as I was recently informed!)... I'm pretty sure all of > you have more > > influence over your students (for good or bad!) than any critic > would have > > over them. Back to the subject of seduction and learning! > > > > Rosie > > > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower > > range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According > > to some critics, subject is less important than what you > > do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the > > place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? > > Finnegan > > > > I dunno about the range of the greats, but I never thought of > Roethke as not > > widely ranging. &n! bsp;I think his lyrical largeness bothers critics. > He was also > > (sorry, folks) much more technically innovative than Bishop or Lowell. > > > > He was much admired by James Dickey, another poet whose > reputation seems on > > the wane. I think it's just a matter of either's finding an influential > > critic. I think after poets die, their reputations decay until > > "rediscovered" by some critic with an audience--IF they have > the bona fides. > > > > I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and > foolishly, > > in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. > > > > --Bob G._______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Jun 7 15:33:16 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:33:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MANDORLA: New Writing from the Americas -- available online Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050607130817.02990388@mail.ilstu.edu> We are pleased to announce that subscriptions to the crosscultural magazine /Mandorla: New Writing from the Americas / Nueva escritura de las Am?ricas/ are now available online for readers from the US and abroad. http://www.litline.org/Mandorla/default.html Our current issue features work by Eleni Sikelianos, Jay Wright, Vera Kutzinski, Roberto Gonz?lez Echevarr?a, Carlos Aguilera, Todd Ram?n Ochoa, Paul Vanouse, Julio Trujillo, Jacqueline Loss, Jos? Kozer, Mark Weiss, Tamara Kamenszain, Gabriel Gudding, Paul Hoover, Javier Marim?n, Rosa Alcal?, Elizabeth Hatmaker, Reynaldo Jim?nez, Nathaniel Mackey, Jos? Lezama Lima, Alfonso D'Aquino, Omar P?rez, Jaime Saenz, Forrest Gander, Thad Ziolkowski, Roberto Tejada, Magali Tercero, Reina Mar?a Rodr?guez, Nancy Gates Madsen, Gabriel Bernal Granados, Peter O'Leary, Ana Rosa Gonz?lez Matute, Antonio Jos? Ponte, Mark Schafer, Curtis White, Soleida R?os, Jorge Guitart, Kass Fleisher, Caroline Koebel, Joel Bettridge, Susan Briante, Arnaldo Valero, Henrry Lezama, Nick Lawrence, Pedro Marqu?s de Armas, Rito Aroche, & Caridad Atencio. _____________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Jun 7 16:09:12 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:09:12 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Strings by Dan Waber Message-ID: <018e01c56b9c$c61fa500$33e03652@ANNY> Just found this: http://www.vispo.com/guests/DanWaber/index.html _______________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jun 7 21:52:30 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:52:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman Message-ID: <191.40eab15c.2fd7a95e@aol.com> In a message dated 6/6/2005 2:18:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >> I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and >> foolishly, in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> > Bob, I think you give short shrift here to Stevens. If you count the various philosophical, aesthetic, psychological, semantic notions he explores, I think his subject matter multiplies almost exponentially. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Tue Jun 7 22:34:20 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:34:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG In-Reply-To: <004701c56b86$5a15b950$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <004701c56b86$5a15b950$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <1118198060.42a6592ce90d8@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Mole, they are playing in Noho Friday night, aren't they??? Continuous Peasant at the Elevens, 10 p.m. (two blocks from my venerable old peeling house) be there or be square Quoting The Old Mole : > Chris Stroffolino, to be specific. If he won't blow his own horn, I will. He' > s playing some gigs on the east coast, including Albany Friday night and > Northampton Saturday. I'm going to try to make the Saturday gig -- but -- > Chris -- I need to know exactly when and where. And you might give the rest > of your itinerary, too. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org From snakecharmer at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 23:05:26 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:05:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG In-Reply-To: <1118198060.42a6592ce90d8@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> References: <004701c56b86$5a15b950$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <1118198060.42a6592ce90d8@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: <33abf275050607200510c44600@mail.gmail.com> Well shit, somebody better figure it all out, and quick. Cause I'm in the Hudson Valley, and I like to drive, and I'm more than willing to be there. If only I knew where and when it was. On 6/7/05, Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > > Mole, they are playing in Noho Friday night, aren't they??? > > Continuous Peasant at the Elevens, 10 p.m. (two blocks from my venerable > old > peeling house) > > be there or be square > > > > Quoting The Old Mole : > > > Chris Stroffolino, to be specific. If he won't blow his own horn, I > will. He' > > s playing some gigs on the east coast, including Albany Friday night and > > Northampton Saturday. I'm going to try to make the Saturday gig -- but > -- > > Chris -- I need to know exactly when and where. And you might give the > rest > > of your itinerary, too. > > > > > > Tad Richards > > www.opus40.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 23:17:07 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:17:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG In-Reply-To: <33abf275050607200510c44600@mail.gmail.com> References: <004701c56b86$5a15b950$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <1118198060.42a6592ce90d8@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> <33abf275050607200510c44600@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33abf27505060720174c46202e@mail.gmail.com> Actually, answered my own question with your help in supplying the band name. >From the Continuous Peasant schedule on their web site: 6.10.2005 Elevens , Northampton Stone Coyotes - 10:30pm 6.11.2005 Abbey Lounge , Cambridge Adam White (The Irreverends) - Adam White goes on at 7PM Continuous Peasant at 8PM 7pm Tad, if you're still interested: Northampton is about a 2-hour drive from here. Cambridge is worse--3+ hours, but with Boston-area traffic it's prolly closer to 4. Which means I can do either show. But in either case, you're prolly going to have to find something more than just pinching to do to me to keep me awake on the Taconic on the way home. Cattle brands sound good. Maybe just steak knives. But either way, it's gonna be a rough trip back. On 6/7/05, Donna Casinghino wrote: > > Well shit, somebody better figure it all out, and quick. Cause I'm in the > Hudson Valley, and I like to drive, and I'm more than willing to be there. > If only I knew where and when it was. > > > > On 6/7/05, Kerry O'Keefe wrote: > > > > Mole, they are playing in Noho Friday night, aren't they??? > > > > Continuous Peasant at the Elevens, 10 p.m. (two blocks from my venerable > > old > > peeling house) > > > > be there or be square > > > > > > > > Quoting The Old Mole < tad at opus40.org>: > > > > > Chris Stroffolino, to be specific. If he won't blow his own horn, I > > will. He' > > > s playing some gigs on the east coast, including Albany Friday night > > and > > > Northampton Saturday. I'm going to try to make the Saturday gig -- but > > -- > > > Chris -- I need to know exactly when and where. And you might give the > > rest > > > of your itinerary, too. > > > > > > > > > Tad Richards > > > www.opus40.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jun 8 07:44:01 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:44:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman References: <191.40eab15c.2fd7a95e@aol.com> Message-ID: <003e01c56c1f$5e1493c0$a6b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and foolishly, in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. --Bob G. Bob, I think you give short shrift here to Stevens. If you count the various philosophical, aesthetic, psychological, semantic notions he explores, I think his subject matter multiplies almost exponentially. Finnegan Slow down, James. I said he is knocked (by others), and I added in my parentheses, "foolishly." --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cc at opus0.com Wed Jun 8 08:05:56 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:05:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Rollerskating In-Reply-To: <200506080227.j582RWRe014316@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Yes of course you are right, Donna. And in brief respites from rollerskating we can continue our discussion of form and content. :) What bliss! I was awakened at 2am by someone outside honking the car horn (a more common method here in Mexico of alerting someone that you'd like to have a conversation than using the telephone). So, naturally I began thinking about this new-po discussion, feeling inspired to unpack my heart with words-- a risky thing and fraught with possible misunderstanding, of course, but preferable to the alternative. I moved to Mexico last October, having earned sufficient income to quit the world of commercial arrangements and live (almost...) entirely on passive income. The purpose, for me, is to complete a book-length poem I've been working on--well, as of this summer, for nine years. It is more accurate maybe to say: 1. the book is writing me and 2. the book is a structure looking for a skin. These two points are related. Ignoring the fact for the moment that I have completely rearranged my life to complete this book-- which as far as I can tell is just an entry fee, I posit the following: First, since the subject is death of the beloved (what Rbt Graves calls the Theme, an idea that makes me smile) and since I do not find in our culture any superstructure to support this personal experience, I have felt compelled, as I've mentioned in other msgs to this list, to invent a mythology mostly out of the spare parts of wrecked flying machines: Science, Christianity, Classical mythology, fairy tales, and from the work of luminaries, inc. Blake, Yeats, Graves, Gimbutas, and others. Second, and maybe more germane to our rollerskating intermezzi, the structure, (what I call the single integrity of the form and content) has dictated treatment of linebreaks, rhythm, sound consonance (expanded notion of rhyme), and other formal elements, AND arrangement, sequence, duration of the content elements to conform to its overall design. This is the most difficult project I've ever undertaken in my life and I have no assurance whatever of its success. Besides the difficulties inherent in the above, I have broken Coleridge's rule that existed long before Coleridge and practically everywhere, except in 2OC USA: to avoid writing about one's own life. The reasons for this rule are now imprinted on my flesh. Despite all, I am making progress by the method of Sisyphus-- wearing down the hill. Speaking of flesh, I feel well-rested now-- shall we return to rollerskating? > Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:06:40 -0400 > From: Donna Casinghino > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman > > Cris: Arrested on what charge? We're both consenting adults who > just happen > to have a great, passionate love for roller skating. Very passionate. > > On 6/7/05, Crisman Cooley wrote: > > > > > Anyone want to teach me how? > > > > Sure, I will. If neither of us act like teachers maybe we could avoid > > being > > arrested. > > > > > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:53:01 -0400 > > > From: Donna Casinghino > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > > > > > Message-ID: <33abf2750506061653f3a6ac8 at mail.gmail.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > > > Here here! I wholeheartedly agree! > > > > > > Seduction and learning go hand in hand. What's the fun of one without > > > the challenge of the other? > > > > > > And I'm still of the mind that a poem's subject and form are > > > inseparable. You can have a great subject and a lousy form, or a great > > > form with a lousy subject. There's benefits in both cases, because you > > > can look just at the technical skill, or just at the interesting > > > choice and angle of subject matter. But like any great work of art, a > > > poem is only great when both components are in harmony. > > > > > > But then, I still can't get them right. :) And I'm no critic, either. > > > So let's go roller skating instead. I never learned, myself. > > > Anyone want to teach me how? > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/6/05, Rosie Shkodrov wrote: > > > > I personally don't believe in critics, but in teachers (but I'm > > > extensively > > > > harmed, as I was recently informed!)... I'm pretty sure all of > > > you have more > > > > influence over your students (for good or bad!) than any critic > > > would have > > > > over them. Back to the subject of seduction and learning! > > > > > > > > Rosie > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could it be that Roethke is thought of as having a narrower > > > > range of subjects than either Lowell or Bishop? According > > > > to some critics, subject is less important than what you > > > > do it with it, but aren't most of the great ones all over the > > > > place in terms of subject or nominal subject matter? > > > > Finnegan > > > > > > > > I dunno about the range of the greats, but I never thought of > > > Roethke as not > > > > widely ranging. I think his lyrical largeness bothers critics. > > > He was also > > > > (sorry, folks) much more technically innovative than Bishop > or Lowell. > > > > > > > > He was much admired by James Dickey, another poet whose > > > reputation seems on > > > > the wane. I think it's just a matter of either's finding an > > influential > > > > critic. I think after poets die, their reputations decay until > > > > "rediscovered" by some critic with an audience--IF they have > > > the bona fides. > > > > > > > > I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and > > > foolishly, > > > > in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. > > > > > > > > --Bob G._______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William > > Blake > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050607/8 > 4ae0124/attachment-0001.html > From tad at opus40.org Wed Jun 8 08:19:02 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:19:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman References: <191.40eab15c.2fd7a95e@aol.com> <003e01c56c1f$5e1493c0$a6b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <003501c56c24$449bf0a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Given that Yeats said there are only two themes for poetry.... Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sic transit Lowell, Bishop, Berryman I'd add that Stevens, still hugely admired, is continually (and foolishly, in my view), knocked for narrowness of subject and theme. --Bob G. Bob, I think you give short shrift here to Stevens. If you count the various philosophical, aesthetic, psychological, semantic notions he explores, I think his subject matter multiplies almost exponentially. Finnegan Slow down, James. I said he is knocked (by others), and I added in my parentheses, "foolishly." --Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Jun 8 09:09:48 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:09:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Map of the Bear", etc. Message-ID: <1118236188.8026.120.camel@malatesta> Forgot to mention yesterday. Tad's poem, thoughts on the poem, etc. http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-06-07/Quot_di_ Don't omit the underscores. Also, it's the top item at http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry We relented and made the site look decent in Microsoft Internet Explorer (broken Web browser that it is). 800x600 and all that. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jun 8 12:19:55 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:19:55 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Map of the Bear", etc. References: <1118236188.8026.120.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <002d01c56c45$e8640760$ea8d3052@ANNY> Well thank you very much Uche, after a full day still on the go - go with the dreaded teachers' meeting up till now, your post on your Quotidie cheered me up, best to you, Anny From: "Uche Ogbuji" Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 3:09 PM > Forgot to mention yesterday. Tad's poem, thoughts on the poem, etc. > > http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-06-07/Quot_di_ > > Don't omit the underscores. Also, it's the top item at > > http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry > > We relented and made the site look decent in Microsoft Internet Explorer > (broken Web browser that it is). 800x600 and all that. > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 8 12:49:48 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:49:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Jellema, Nurske, Wormser reviewed Message-ID: <147.46f22f68.2fd87bac@aol.com> In the Age of Glare reviewed by Rose Marie Berger Book Review: Rod Jellema, A Slender Grace (Eerdmans: 2005). D. Nurske, Burnt Island (Knopf: 2005). Baron Wormser, Carthage (The Illuminated Sea Press: 2004). http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0507&article=05 0733b -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Jun 8 13:15:51 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:15:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Map of the Bear", etc. References: <1118236188.8026.120.camel@malatesta> <002d01c56c45$e8640760$ea8d3052@ANNY> Message-ID: <001701c56c4d$bbaebdc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Uche - I posted a comment to you, on your blog. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "The Map of the Bear", etc. Well thank you very much Uche, after a full day still on the go - go with the dreaded teachers' meeting up till now, your post on your Quotidie cheered me up, best to you, Anny From: "Uche Ogbuji" Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 3:09 PM > Forgot to mention yesterday. Tad's poem, thoughts on the poem, etc. > > http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-06-07/Quot_di_ > > Don't omit the underscores. Also, it's the top item at > > http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry > > We relented and made the site look decent in Microsoft Internet Explorer > (broken Web browser that it is). 800x600 and all that. > > > -- > Uche Ogbuji > uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Jun 8 13:25:44 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home Message-ID: <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone tell me what Gertrude Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Wed Jun 8 14:02:16 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:02:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Also, with My Throat, I Shall Swallow Ten Thousand Swords Message-ID: _Also, with My Throat, I Shall Swallow Ten Thousand Swords: Araki Yasusada's Letters in English_, will be available in coming days from Combo Books. The book will be available through SPD, but advance orders can be made by sending $12 to: Combo Books c/o Michael Magee 6 Brookwood Ln. Cumberland, RI 02864 The book is beautifully designed and set by Christian Palino of Prototype Syndicate. Mike Magee asks me to indicate that he would be happy to send an advance PDF file of the book to anyone who would have a serious interest in reviewing it. You can write to him at combobooks at cox.net Blurb comments can be viewed below. Kent *** [blurbs on inside pages] This is essentially a criminal act. --Arthur Vogelsang 'Yasusada's' writing is an entry into a spiritual space . . . It is a work of art in the largest sense. --Carolyn Forch* Yasusada is an expression of white male rage. --Charles Bernstein "The 'scandal' of these poems lies not in the problematics of authorship, identity, persona, race or history. Rather, these are wonderful works of writing that also invoke all of these other issues, never relying on them to prop up a text. In a time and place where book jacket blurbs routinely claim that X or Y poet has written a work that has "found that which is essential" in whatever, this book makes the argument for anti-essentialism. That it has done it so well infuriates folks with a proprietary interest in categories. Thank you, Araki Yasusada!" --Ron Silliman (The Yasusada author) has done a brilliant job in inventing a world at once ritualized and yet startlingly modern, timeless yet documentary, archaicized yet au courant - a poetic world that satisfies our hunger for the authentic, even though that authentic world is itself a perfect simulacrum? Like Pound's "Homage to Sextus Propertius", the Yasusada notebooks force us to go back to the 'originals,' so as to see what they really were and how they have been transformed." --Marjorie Perloff Doubled Flowering: From the Notebooks of Araki Yasusada is the most controversial poetry book since Allen Ginsberg's Howl? Using modernist strategies, the author(s), steeped in translations of Japanese literature and feeling uneasy, even - if they are Americans - complicit with the U.S. foreign policy that generated such mass destruction, invented an imaginative, political and poetic act of empathy. To write poems concerning Hiroshima, they felt it necessary to imagine themselves as the other, "the enemy." They relinquished their own identities as authors and became invisible, as the Hiroshima victims themselves disappeared. It is an impossible gesture of solidarity, since one cannot become someone else and since one cannot truly imagine one's way into an actual culture considerably different from one's own. But nevertheless, it is a gesture worth making if its resultant poetry is worthwhile as art, as poetry, as - finally - contemporary Western poetry. In this gambit, Doubled Flowering is an astonishing success. --Forrest Gander It is possible, I would argue, to see the Yasusada notebooks as a kind of experimental laboratory for identifying and analyzing forms of cross-cultural misprision-the ways that cultures mutually construe, and misconstrue, one another. Far from seeking to con us into believing in a fictitious Japanese poet, the Yasusada experiment compels us to see that this poet, constructed in this particular way, could only be the product of a North American cultural imagination, just as the "America" that this imagined poet in turn imagines reflects a Japanese construction of American culture. Each construction-the American construction of an imagined Japan, the imagined Japanese construction of America-is "wrong," in a sense, but by juxtaposing their respective "wrongnesses about each other we perhaps achieve something like a scale model of cross-cultural assimilation and resistance, cross-pollination and contamination, difference and sameness. --Brian McHale In the proliferating discussions, the identity of the author ha(s) become so refracted that it approache(s) the condition of We Are All Yasusada. Perhaps it is best to call him/her/them the Yasusada Author, much as we refer to a Renaissance painter as the Master of the X Altar. --Eliot Weinberger No one will buy (this book), read it, or own it-why would we? We know that the poems are not "true" to any genuine emotional experience, and we know that the act of imagination that produced them was motivated by sardonic smugness or misanthropic disdain. Or both?Yasusada hacks at the core of what's sacred in human endeavor? Literature is our record of being, and to defraud it is an act of nihilistic mutiny. --Michael Atkinson *** [comments for back cover] These pidgin English fantasies of poetic mastery are awful and incredible. Like Frank O'Hara's "poem in blackface," they give us pause by giving delight. The delight, dear reader, is a ruse. It's the pause that constitutes their gift. --Ben Friedlander, former editor of Jimmy and Lucy's House of K, author of A Knot Is Not a Tangle, and Simulcast: Four Experiments in Criticism Here in America, where even our best experimental writers seem to be constructing gigantic monuments to their own talents and are eager to lie beside Wordsworth in some canonical garden, (the Yasusada) project, whatever it ultimately is or ends up having been, strikes me as either the most moving, unsettling, and important thing going on right now or as the most egregious and dangerous self-delusion in American letters. --Tony Tost, editor of Octopus Magazine, author of Invisible Bride, winner of the 2003 Walt Whitman Award Joyce and Stein gave us an idea of how the ego talked, Mallarme and Proust, the superego. Now, for the first time in our era, an unearthing of Araki Yasusada's shattering letters and sublime poem-fragments, brilliantly edited by Kent Johnson, ALSO, WITH MY THROAT, I SHALL SWALLOW TEN THOUSAND SWORDS, shows us how ego and superego would talk to each other, if only they spoke the same language. It is neither English nor French nor Japanese, neither prose nor poetry, but a post-Ashberian incantation grounded in our primal explosion, at the root of our age, in Hiroshima. The letters from Araki (superego) to Richard (ego) are gifted with annotation by our visionary Dr. Johnson, as he helps us to identify a new realm of memory in unbidden quotation and translation. In memoriam, the twentieth century is presented in a shoebox of lyric quantum equations-between thought and feeling, language and encoding, word and misspelling, reader and misreading. Especially the latter: "I am saying this in a little girl's voice, Richard. Is this the buffoonery of an emotion that I cannot express in art?" No emotion goes missing from this first contemporary instance of the poetic restoration of a lost city-an echo of the great laments of Ur and Mari, Erech and Jerusalem-that is our literary future. It is the landmark of twenty-first century art, as well, that Motokiyu et. al. has created. --David Rosenberg, former editor of Coach House Press, author of Dreams of Being Eaten Alive: The Literary Core of the Kabbalah, and (with Harold Bloom), The Book of J. From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Wed Jun 8 15:59:40 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:59:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ron Silliman, Jedi Message-ID: On his blog today, Ron Silliman said: "When I first published The Age of Huts in 1986, I told pretty much anyone who would listen that Ketjak, published eight years earlier, was itself a part of the original sequence. Yet between those two books came Tjanting, the project that was written after I completed Huts. So that when I tell people now that The Alphabet is really the third stage in a four-stage project, the first two of which are The Age of Huts & Tjanting, I know that it's nigh on impossible for many readers to visualize." Perhaps Ron underestimates the extent to which Star Wars has expanded the sophistication of our "visualization." From lattaj at umich.edu Wed Jun 8 16:12:40 2005 From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:12:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ron Silliman, Jedi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kent, What baffles me in Silliman's post today is the extent to which he believes in control of all aspects of his "production," up to, and including its "reception." As if he chides Ronald Johnson for, um, changing his mind about a large structure, and, worse, for leaving behind a "mess." Whatver happen'd to the "processual"? I had a strong desire to emend that final line to read: "I know that it's nigh on impossible for many readers to _care_." John On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Kent Johnson wrote: > On his blog today, Ron Silliman said: > > "When I first published The Age of Huts in 1986, I told pretty much > anyone who would listen that Ketjak, published eight years earlier, was > itself a part of the original sequence. Yet between those two books came > Tjanting, the project that was written after I completed Huts. So that > when I tell people now that The Alphabet is really the third stage in a > four-stage project, the first two of which are The Age of Huts & > Tjanting, I know that it's nigh on impossible for many readers to > visualize." > > Perhaps Ron underestimates the extent to which Star Wars has expanded > the sophistication of our "visualization." > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 20:40:07 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:40:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! Message-ID: <731bb17a050608174052dff1ef@mail.gmail.com> Any bloggers in NewPoetry world: kpaul? Mike Snider? Anny? Can you backchannel me? I have a question about CSS that *someone* can answer. Thanks, Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 8 21:31:37 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:31:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] New and On View: Mudlark No. 28 (2005) Message-ID: <2b.74cdf264.2fd8f5f9@aol.com> Date:? ? Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:33:50 -0400 From:? ? William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark New and On View: Mudlark No. 28 (2005) Use Cases by Brian Clements Brian Clements is the author of two print books, Flesh and Wood and Essays Against Ruin, and two online collections, Ions and Burn Whatever Will Burn: A Book of Common Rituals. He edits the small press Firewheel Editions and its Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics, and he coordinates the new MFA in Professional Writing at Western Connecticut State University. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 8 21:53:47 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:53:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poems by others: Landis Everson Message-ID: <7d.6ae9c597.2fd8fb2b@aol.com> Landis Everson Three poems Note: Landis Everson was part of the original "Berkeley Renaissance" in the late '40s, an intimate of the Duncan-Spicer-Blaser circle (Spicer was in love with him, and to Duncan he was the "Poet-King"), and later (circa 1960) a member of the Spicer-Blaser-Jim Herndon-Landis Everson Sunday reading group in San Francisco. Ashbery printed some of his things in Locus Solus in 1962, but Landis did not appear in print until two sequences (Postcard from Eden and "The Little Ghosts I Played With") were printed in their entirety last year in Ben Mazer's anthology of the Berkeley Renaissance in Fulcrum 3 (2004), Everson's first appearance in print in more than 40 years. He is now in his mid-70s, alive and well in San Luis Obispo, and has started writing poetry again. This spring, A volume of new and collected poems, Everything Preserved: Poems 1955-2005, edited by Ben Mazer, is forthcoming. BALANCE The morning snapped up like a window shade When dogs came barking down the hill Filling memories and the sleeping rooms With savagery. Not hard to tell What puny prize they chased or why a day That warmed its fingers on my chest Was busy elsewhere cheering life and death. An egg and bacon regularity The minutes calm as coffee passed And stuck. I waited for the cry of fate Outside the house and thought, this world Of love pretends no modesty--hope And fear like rancid habits bound Across the apple seeds and dust of danger. MEMORY CHEST Things he had discovered, A watch, a gold tooth, a diary, Lay before him in the box After sixty years of death. The elephant was also there Something like a rose leaf Jammed in, pressed and faded After sixty years of death. Things he had discovered Jammed in pressed and faded Something like a rose leaf-- What else had he expected? The elephant was also there Lay before him in the box. A watch, a gold tooth, a diary-- What else had he expected? After sixty years of death What else had he expected? He jammed himself within the box And hugged the dead-set elephant. PANTOUM Hunger led him to discover (That ancient enemy of the belly) Starving on a mountain top The form that trembled in the thickets. That ancient enemy of the belly Told its knowledge to the heart. The form that trembled in the thickets, Something love and hate could eat, Told its knowledge to the heart-- All is prey that can be swallowed. Something love and hate could eat The eye was well trained to remember. All is prey that can be swallowed The earth exceeds itself in offering The eye was well trained to remember Beauty has a double shape. The earth exceeds itself in offering Both the beauty and the flesh. Beauty has a double shape-- One the bow kills one the heart. Both the beauty and the flesh (One the bow kills one the heart) Leapt up stricken from his fancy-- He ate the world up with his eyes. One the bow kills one the heart Hunger led him to discover-- He ate the world up with his eyes Starving on the mountain top. *** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jun 8 21:58:52 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:58:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! plus a little poem by Apollinaire Message-ID: Lynda and I are just about to hit the road for Mexico, and our cat-care deal fell through just a day or so ago. Now, we're madly scrambling to find some folks who might extend their hospitality to our cat Chuckie for a couple months (the trip by car is much too long, and the house we'll be staying in doesn't welcome cats). We'd love to hear from anyone either in the NYC/New Jersey area or not too far from a NYC to San Antonio/Laredo/Eagle Pass sort of trajectory who'd be so kind as to take him in. He's getting on now (who isn't?)--about 15 or so--but is in good health and is an amiable and witty companion who's lived well with both other cats and with dogs. We'd be glad to pay something for a bit of TLC, and Lynda's offering both an original monoprint and a copy of her new book The Body Parts Shop. I could throw in a couple books also. (Not to mention food, cat litter, etc.) Here's the old guy himself. Click and then scroll down one screen. http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/halandlynda.html If you can't do it yourself, and have neighbors you'd recommend who might, please ask them and/or make us some suggestions. Oh, hell, forget the near trajectory. We'll go out of our way for this guy. The Cat In my house I want: A reasonable woman, A cat passing among the books, And friends in every season, Whom I cannot live without. --Guillaume Apollinaire Hal Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jun 9 07:37:35 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:37:35 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] a new Radio! Message-ID: <004201c56ce7$a1c47860$dce03652@ANNY> With my best wishes to Jim Finnegan! http://poetry.about.com/od/audiopoetry/a/litstation.htm?nl=1 _LitStation.com begins with an inordinate and obsessive love of poetry... Which is an affliction for which I've not sought a cure. Hendree Milward, my partner in the LitStation.com enterprise, interviewed me on his radio program last year. Afterward we got to talking about our mutual love for recorded poetry and literature. As the conversation developed we decided to build a Web site devoted to making available literary sound files. ..._ _________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 9 10:54:46 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:54:46 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry about.com publicity Message-ID: <156.52cdc703.2fd9b236@aol.com> http://poetry.about.com/od/audiopoetry/a/litstation.htm?nl=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 9 11:03:09 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:03:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry about.com publicity References: <156.52cdc703.2fd9b236@aol.com> Message-ID: <002c01c56d04$5bda5820$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> This is very exciting stuff. Way to go, Jim! Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 10:54 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry about.com publicity http://poetry.about.com/od/audiopoetry/a/litstation.htm?nl=1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Thu Jun 9 14:33:29 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:33:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Best American Poetry Message-ID: The Best American Poetry Am I the only idiot here, on this hill, surrounded, as I am, by white and black sheep? Our quaint and severe village is in the valley, there: the steeple and its blue bell, the round mud huts, washed white, their conical thatches, o. And the air? Why, the air is blue and clear as a bell. A yodel comes up the hill, followed by another, in a slightly different pitch, though just as fair, for the practice there has worn them really about the same. Why, it's my old pals from grad school, James Tate and Dean Young! They lie on either side of me, face-up, hands locked behind their heads, under the puffy, cotton-ball clouds. I plunge my tongue to their bare-stripped breasts. Baa-a! says James. B-aaa! says Dean. Ba-aa! says I. And then we laugh, and James rolls a fattie the size of a cigar. We pass the time, and lounge at our ease, playing the dozens with non-syllogistic sentences, so the paragraph becomes a unit of quantity, not logic or argument. By and by, a third yodel rolls up the hill, this one deeper and more complex than any yodel we have heard heretofore, its fractal ironies unmistakable to our finer ears. Why, it's our teacher from grad school, John Ashbery! He ambles towards us, with his slightly quizzical, diffident gaze, holding the tiny hand of his boyfriend, the Nut-Brown Maid. Hey, did you guys see the fire? he asks, matter-of-factly. No, we say, What fire? Look, he says, pointing down to our village. >From the mud huts, washed in their white, puffs of smoke rise from the little chimneys. But there from a dwelling which is pretty much like the others yet a little more towards the edge of town, flames shoot from the roof, thousands of feet into the sky. O, it's the house of the Hejinian's! we cry. Yes, the East catches the light, and the history of poetry repeats itself, endlessly, says John, cryptically. We can see the ant-like people, running around or passing water buckets in a line. And there goes the little red fire truck, speeding towards its fire, pulled by Gertrude, the ancient Clydesdale. The Nut-Brown Maid yawns, pulls out his birding binoculars and hands them to me: Aha! Russell Edson sits there, hunched like a gnome, gripping the reins, screaming something like Go horse Go! In his pocket is his heart. It is The Best American Poetry. From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Jun 9 03:50:17 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:50:17 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <200506091600.j59G05Re025408@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200506091600.j59G05Re025408@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Mole, You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb is for Judge Bork what Ann Coulter is for me. Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's just an old fashioned Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, or Coolidge (Calvin). The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian Internationalists who tried to stop your buddy, Lenin, although Wolfowitz, when asked, didn't like the comparison. I guess he'd call himself a Straussian, but, anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I would have supposed you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing for the recapturing of Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 Migs and then the inevitable anti-USA reading series down there organized around G's new anthology. R i c h a r d D i l l o n Message: 4 Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 From: "The Old Mole" Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home To: Message-ID: <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Way way way off the subject, but can anyone tell me what Gertrude Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ -- From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jun 9 17:42:42 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:42:42 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Library of Congress and the National Library of France Message-ID: <003e01c56d3c$2cc5e800$a1a93252@ANNY> > Van: Laura Gottesman [mailto:lgot at loc.gov] > Verzonden: woensdag 11 mei 2005 15:02 The Library of Congress and the National Library of France (la Biblioth?que nationale de France) have launched a bilingual online presentation that explores the history of the French presence in North America and the interactions between the French and American peoples from the early 16th to the early 19th centuries: "France in America/La France en Am?rique": http://international.loc.gov/intldl/fiahtml/. "We are pleased to cooperate with other national libraries to make these rich historical resources globally accessible," said Librarian of Congress James H. Billington. "This site will be especially valuable for teachers as they prepare lessons on this complex and pivotal chapter in American and French history." "In developing this Web presentation, both national libraries have done what they do best-sift through an exhaustive amount of material in order to make our common histories comprehensible and accessible to the public," said Jean No?l Jeanneney, president of the Biblioth?que nationale de France. The English and French presentations each include more than 100,000 images from the rare book, manuscript, map and print collections of the Library of Congress and the Biblioth?que nationale de France. Among the items available on the site are print versions of Samuel de Champlain's "Voyages," Jacques Marquette's account of his voyage of 1673, Theodor de Bry's late 16th-century illustrations of Native American villages, narratives by French officers who participated in the American Revolution and rare maps from the Rochambeau Collection in the Library of Congress and the d'Anville Collection in the Biblioth?que nationale de France. The first release of the online presentation focuses on the role played by France in the exploration and settlement of North America and in such formative events in the history of the United States as the French and Indian War, the American Revolution and the Louisiana Purchase. It documents the voyages of important explorers such as Jacques Cartier, Champlain and Sieur Cavelier de La Salle; the role of French fur traders, missionaries and soldiers in opening up and settling the upper Midwest; and the interactions between the French settlers and the Native American tribes they encountered. A second release, to be launched in 2006, will document the continuing links between France and the United States in the 19th century through trade, immigration, scientific exchange, literature and the arts. The online English presentation, titled "France in America," joins other international resources on the Library of Congress Global Gateway Web site at http://international.loc.gov/intldl/ (To access these collections, select the link to "Collaborative Digital Libraries"). The site includes collaborative digital libraries built with partners from around the world. The French version, titled "La France en Am?rique," is also the newest addition to Gallica, the Biblioth?que nationale de France's digital library, at http://gallica.bnf.fr/FranceAmerique. Founded in 1800 to serve the research needs of the U.S. Congress, the Library of Congress is the nation's oldest federal cultural institution. It holds more than 130 million items in various formats such as books, manuscripts, maps, prints, photographs, music, films and digital files. Today the Library serves visitors from around the world on site in its 21 reading rooms on Capitol Hill and through its popular Web site at www.loc.gov. The Biblioth?que nationale de France was founded (as the first Royal Library) by King Charles V in 1368. Through the mandatory deposit of printed works (since 1537) as well as numerous acquisitions and donations, the collection has grown to some 31 million documents, including books, manuscripts, prints, photographs, posters, maps, musical scores, sound recordings, video, multimedia, seals, coins and antiques. Today the Biblioth?que nationale de France serves visitors in its 35 reading rooms in five locations and through its Web site at www.bnf.fr. Please direct any questions regarding the content of this Web site to the Library of Congress's European Division: < http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ask-european.html > ______________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 08:22:41 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050610122241.3500.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> the Neocons were not the Wilsonian internationalists...which book did you get this from and what brand of fantasy politics do you ascribe to? Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule of international law, not in itself a conservative aim, conservatism being particularlist and nationalist. The ideal of the League of Nations was a key Liberal policy and its origins come from the Left. --- ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > Mole, > > You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb is for > Judge Bork what > Ann Coulter is for me. > > Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's just an > old fashioned > Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, or > Coolidge (Calvin). > > The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian > Internationalists who tried > to stop your buddy, Lenin, although Wolfowitz, when > asked, didn't > like the comparison. I guess he'd call himself a > Straussian, but, > anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I would > have supposed > you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing for the > recapturing of > Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 Migs and > then the > inevitable anti-USA reading series down there > organized around G's > new anthology. > > R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 > From: "The Old Mole" > Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home > To: > Message-ID: <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Way way way off the subject, but can anyone tell me > what Gertrude > Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tad at opus40.org Fri Jun 10 08:42:27 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:42:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb References: <20050610122241.3500.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01c56db9$de9f3400$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> The folks who called themselves the Neocons, whether they were or not, were the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that would include Prof. Himmelfarb. By the way, what did her friends call her? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > the Neocons were not the Wilsonian > internationalists...which book did you get this from > and what brand of fantasy politics do you ascribe to? > Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule of > international law, not in itself a conservative aim, > conservatism being particularlist and nationalist. > The ideal of the League of Nations was a key Liberal > policy and its origins come from the Left. > > --- ELEMENOPE Productions > wrote: > >> Mole, >> >> You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb is for >> Judge Bork what >> Ann Coulter is for me. >> >> Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's just an >> old fashioned >> Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, or >> Coolidge (Calvin). >> >> The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian >> Internationalists who tried >> to stop your buddy, Lenin, although Wolfowitz, when >> asked, didn't >> like the comparison. I guess he'd call himself a >> Straussian, but, >> anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I would >> have supposed >> you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing for the >> recapturing of >> Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 Migs and >> then the >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down there >> organized around G's >> new anthology. >> >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n >> >> >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 >> From: "The Old Mole" >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home >> To: >> Message-ID: <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone tell me >> what Gertrude >> Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? >> >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From clitophon at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 08:50:50 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <001b01c56db9$de9f3400$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <20050610125050.89805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> what the f*** does this sentence mean? is everyone on this list illiterate? (apart from his repulsive politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with the best English on this list) --- The Old Mole wrote: > The folks who called themselves the Neocons, whether > they were or not, were > the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that would > include Prof. Himmelfarb. > By the way, what did her friends call her? > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Murphy" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > > > > the Neocons were not the Wilsonian > > internationalists...which book did you get this > from > > and what brand of fantasy politics do you ascribe > to? > > Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule of > > international law, not in itself a conservative > aim, > > conservatism being particularlist and nationalist. > > The ideal of the League of Nations was a key > Liberal > > policy and its origins come from the Left. > > > > --- ELEMENOPE Productions > > wrote: > > > >> Mole, > >> > >> You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb is > for > >> Judge Bork what > >> Ann Coulter is for me. > >> > >> Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's just > an > >> old fashioned > >> Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, or > >> Coolidge (Calvin). > >> > >> The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian > >> Internationalists who tried > >> to stop your buddy, Lenin, although Wolfowitz, > when > >> asked, didn't > >> like the comparison. I guess he'd call himself a > >> Straussian, but, > >> anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I > would > >> have supposed > >> you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing for > the > >> recapturing of > >> Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 Migs > and > >> then the > >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down there > >> organized around G's > >> new anthology. > >> > >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n > >> > >> > >> > >> Message: 4 > >> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 > >> From: "The Old Mole" > >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home > >> To: > >> Message-ID: > <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> > >> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone tell > me > >> what Gertrude > >> Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? > >> > >> > >> Tad Richards > >> www.opus40.org > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> -- > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From snakecharmer at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 09:05:39 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:05:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <20050610125050.89805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> References: <001b01c56db9$de9f3400$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <20050610125050.89805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33abf27505061006051892057b@mail.gmail.com> Whether she was neocon or not: "Gertrude Himmelfarb, the wife of neoconservative godfather Irving Kristoland mother of William Kristol , is a scholar whose work has focused on issues of virtue, morality, Victorian society, and modern values." --from http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/himmelfarb/himmelfarb.php So now can we all stop arguing semantics and just try to answer the question? On 6/10/05, Paul Murphy wrote: > > what the f*** does this sentence mean? is everyone > on this list illiterate? (apart from his repulsive > politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with the > best English on this list) > > --- The Old Mole wrote: > > > The folks who called themselves the Neocons, whether > > they were or not, were > > the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that would > > include Prof. Himmelfarb. > > By the way, what did her friends call her? > > > > > > Tad Richards > > www.opus40.org > > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul Murphy" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > > > > > > > the Neocons were not the Wilsonian > > > internationalists...which book did you get this > > from > > > and what brand of fantasy politics do you ascribe > > to? > > > Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule of > > > international law, not in itself a conservative > > aim, > > > conservatism being particularlist and nationalist. > > > The ideal of the League of Nations was a key > > Liberal > > > policy and its origins come from the Left. > > > > > > --- ELEMENOPE Productions > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Mole, > > >> > > >> You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb is > > for > > >> Judge Bork what > > >> Ann Coulter is for me. > > >> > > >> Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's just > > an > > >> old fashioned > > >> Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, or > > >> Coolidge (Calvin). > > >> > > >> The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian > > >> Internationalists who tried > > >> to stop your buddy, Lenin, although Wolfowitz, > > when > > >> asked, didn't > > >> like the comparison. I guess he'd call himself a > > >> Straussian, but, > > >> anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I > > would > > >> have supposed > > >> you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing for > > the > > >> recapturing of > > >> Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 Migs > > and > > >> then the > > >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down there > > >> organized around G's > > >> new anthology. > > >> > > >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Message: 4 > > >> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 > > >> From: "The Old Mole" > > >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home > > >> To: > > >> Message-ID: > > <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >> > > >> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone tell > > me > > >> what Gertrude > > >> Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? > > >> > > >> > > >> Tad Richards > > >> www.opus40.org > > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > >> > > >> -- > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 10 09:52:48 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:52:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie_wins_=A310=2C000=2C_Scots_book?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_prize_?= Message-ID: <1b8.14f99abc.2fdaf530@aol.com> http://news.scotsman.com/entertainment.cfm?id=636732005 Poet scoops ?10,000 top Scots book prize DAVID ROBINSON BOOKS EDITOR A "SUPERLATIVE" writer yesterday became the first poet to win Scotland's most valuable literary prize - the ?10,000 Scottish Book of the Year Award. Kathleen Jamie's collection, The Tree House, has already triumphed in Britain's two main poetry awards, winning the ?10,000 Forward Prize and being shortlisted for the TS Eliot Prize. Presenting the award at a ceremony in Edinburgh yesterday, Gavin Wallace, the Scottish Arts Council's head of literature, said that The Tree House "deserves every word of the extensive acclaim it has attracted". He added: "It brings poetry in Scotland to the very pinnacle of achievement in the art. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 10 09:55:15 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:55:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Kunio Tsukamoto, an avant-garde tanka poet Message-ID: Friday June 10, 10:20 AM Tanka poet Tsukamoto dies at 84 (Kyodo) _ Kunio Tsukamoto, an avant-garde tanka poet who had an enormous impact on the classical Japanese poetry field following World War II, died Thursday of respiratory failure at a hospital in Moriguchi, Osaka Prefecture, his family said Friday. He was 84. A native of Shiga Prefecture, Tsukamoto studied tanka --five-line, 31-syllable poetry -- under renowned poet Samio Maekawa while working at a trading company in Osaka, western Japan. He published his first volume of poems, "Suiso Monogatari" (story of burial at sea), in 1951 and went on to release a series of other works and become a central figure in the field along with Takashi Okai and Shuji Terayama. Tsukamoto, who served as a professor for 10 years from 1989 at Kinki University in Osaka Prefecture, also had exchanges with writer Yukio Mishima. His symbolic and nonrealistic style of writing challenged the common practice in the tanka world until then to stick to realism and naturalism, and he was described as a "magician of words" who created a world of beauty and passion. Tsukamoto received numerous awards, including the Japanese government's Medal with Purple Ribbon in 1990 for his contributions to the arts. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 10 10:02:24 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:02:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICA & LINGUA FRANCA Message-ID: <6d.470b5b51.2fdaf770@aol.com> POETICA 11/06/2005 15:00 16/06/2005 21:00 (repeat) Situations Vacant - The Poetry of Work URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1376042.htm An anthology of poems from around the world celebrating or bemoaning work and working lives. The poems come from France, the USA and Australia, and cover everything from consultants intent on downsizing to working in a pizza shop. LINGUA FRANCA 11/06/2005 15.45 16/06/2005 21.45 (repeat) On Writing A Poem: An Author Speaks... URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/stories/s1386691.htm Judith Wright, recorded in Brisbane in May 1969 for the program From the Library Shelf, draws on her own experience to suggest how the listener might go about writing a poem (rather than verse). She reads some of her own poems. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Jun 10 10:10:54 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:10:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb References: <20050610125050.89805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001701c56dc6$3a5924c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Actually, I'm the only illiterate on the list. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > what the f*** does this sentence mean? is everyone > on this list illiterate? (apart from his repulsive > politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with the > best English on this list) > > --- The Old Mole wrote: > >> The folks who called themselves the Neocons, whether >> they were or not, were >> the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that would >> include Prof. Himmelfarb. >> By the way, what did her friends call her? >> >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Paul Murphy" >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" >> >> >> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb >> >> >> > the Neocons were not the Wilsonian >> > internationalists...which book did you get this >> from >> > and what brand of fantasy politics do you ascribe >> to? >> > Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule of >> > international law, not in itself a conservative >> aim, >> > conservatism being particularlist and nationalist. >> > The ideal of the League of Nations was a key >> Liberal >> > policy and its origins come from the Left. >> > >> > --- ELEMENOPE Productions >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Mole, >> >> >> >> You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb is >> for >> >> Judge Bork what >> >> Ann Coulter is for me. >> >> >> >> Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's just >> an >> >> old fashioned >> >> Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, or >> >> Coolidge (Calvin). >> >> >> >> The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian >> >> Internationalists who tried >> >> to stop your buddy, Lenin, although Wolfowitz, >> when >> >> asked, didn't >> >> like the comparison. I guess he'd call himself a >> >> Straussian, but, >> >> anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I >> would >> >> have supposed >> >> you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing for >> the >> >> recapturing of >> >> Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 Migs >> and >> >> then the >> >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down there >> >> organized around G's >> >> new anthology. >> >> >> >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Message: 4 >> >> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 >> >> From: "The Old Mole" >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home >> >> To: >> >> Message-ID: >> <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >> >> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone tell >> me >> >> what Gertrude >> >> Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? >> >> >> >> >> >> Tad Richards >> >> www.opus40.org >> >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > >> > >> > __________________________________________________ >> > Do You Yahoo!? >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> protection around >> > http://mail.yahoo.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Fri Jun 10 10:16:26 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:16:26 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Jamie_wins_=A310=2C000=2C_Scots_book_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?prize_?= References: <1b8.14f99abc.2fdaf530@aol.com> Message-ID: <003501c56dc6$ffe35d50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Mr and Mrs Scotland Are Dead On the civic amenity landfill site, the coup, the dump beyond the cemetery and the 30-mile-an-hour sign, her stiff old ladies' bags, open mouthed, spew postcards sent from small Scots towns in 1960: Peebles, Largs, the rock-gardens of Carnoustie, tinted in the dirt. Mr and Mrs Scotland, here is the hand you were dealt: fair but cool, showery but nevertheless, Jean asks kindly; the lovely scenery; in careful school-room script - The Beltane Queen was crowned today. But Mr and Mrs Scotland are dead. Couldn't he have burned them? Released in a grey curl of smoke this pattern for a cable knit? Or this: tossed between a toppled fridge and sweet-stinking anorak: Dictionary for Mothers M:- Milk, the woman who worries.; And here, Mr Scotland's John Bull Puncture Repair Kit; those days when he knew intimately the thin roads of his country, hedgerows hanged with small black brambles' hearts; and here, for God's sake, his last few joiners' tools, SCOTLAND, SCOTLAND, stamped on their tired handles. Do we take them? Before the bulldozer comes to make more room, to shove aside his shaving brush, her button tin. Do we save this toolbox, these old-fashioned views addressed, after all, to Mr and Mrs Scotland? Should we reach and take them? And then? Forget them, till that person enters our silent house, begins to open to the light our kitchen drawers, and performs for us this perfunctory rite: the sweeping up, the turning out. >From Mr and Mrs Scotland Are Dead, by Kathleen Jamie Copyright ? Kathleen Jamie, 2002 Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 9:52 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Jamie wins ?10,000, Scots book prize http://news.scotsman.com/entertainment.cfm?id=636732005 Poet scoops ?10,000 top Scots book prize DAVID ROBINSON BOOKS EDITOR A "SUPERLATIVE" writer yesterday became the first poet to win Scotland's most valuable literary prize - the ?10,000 Scottish Book of the Year Award. Kathleen Jamie's collection, The Tree House, has already triumphed in Britain's two main poetry awards, winning the ?10,000 Forward Prize and being shortlisted for the TS Eliot Prize. Presenting the award at a ceremony in Edinburgh yesterday, Gavin Wallace, the Scottish Arts Council's head of literature, said that The Tree House "deserves every word of the extensive acclaim it has attracted". He added: "It brings poetry in Scotland to the very pinnacle of achievement in the art. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 10:20:50 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:20:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <001701c56dc6$3a5924c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <20050610125050.89805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> <001701c56dc6$3a5924c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <731bb17a05061007202e2149fe@mail.gmail.com> No-no! Wiat! I be lyeliterated, 2!!! Jeff Newberry On 6/10/05, The Old Mole wrote: > > Actually, I'm the only illiterate on the list. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Murphy" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > > > > what the f*** does this sentence mean? is everyone > > on this list illiterate? (apart from his repulsive > > politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with the > > best English on this list) > > > > --- The Old Mole wrote: > > > >> The folks who called themselves the Neocons, whether > >> they were or not, were > >> the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that would > >> include Prof. Himmelfarb. > >> By the way, what did her friends call her? > >> > >> > >> Tad Richards > >> www.opus40.org > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Paul Murphy" > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > >> > >> > >> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > >> > >> > >> > the Neocons were not the Wilsonian > >> > internationalists...which book did you get this > >> from > >> > and what brand of fantasy politics do you ascribe > >> to? > >> > Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule of > >> > international law, not in itself a conservative > >> aim, > >> > conservatism being particularlist and nationalist. > >> > The ideal of the League of Nations was a key > >> Liberal > >> > policy and its origins come from the Left. > >> > > >> > --- ELEMENOPE Productions > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> Mole, > >> >> > >> >> You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb is > >> for > >> >> Judge Bork what > >> >> Ann Coulter is for me. > >> >> > >> >> Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's just > >> an > >> >> old fashioned > >> >> Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, or > >> >> Coolidge (Calvin). > >> >> > >> >> The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian > >> >> Internationalists who tried > >> >> to stop your buddy, Lenin, although Wolfowitz, > >> when > >> >> asked, didn't > >> >> like the comparison. I guess he'd call himself a > >> >> Straussian, but, > >> >> anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I > >> would > >> >> have supposed > >> >> you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing for > >> the > >> >> recapturing of > >> >> Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 Migs > >> and > >> >> then the > >> >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down there > >> >> organized around G's > >> >> new anthology. > >> >> > >> >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Message: 4 > >> >> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 > >> >> From: "The Old Mole" > >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home > >> >> To: > >> >> Message-ID: > >> <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> >> > >> >> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone tell > >> me > >> >> what Gertrude > >> >> Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Tad Richards > >> >> www.opus40.org > >> >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >> > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > __________________________________________________ > >> > Do You Yahoo!? > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > >> protection around > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > New-Poetry mailing list > >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 10:28:24 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:28:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05061007202e2149fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050610125050.89805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> <001701c56dc6$3a5924c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <731bb17a05061007202e2149fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33abf27505061007282a7fb6c6@mail.gmail.com> And suddenly we're all rollerskating in here too. If we're all as feeble-minded as Paul believes, then who's teaching our sorry lot, anyway? On 6/10/05, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > No-no! Wiat! I be lyeliterated, 2!!! > Jeff Newberry > > On 6/10/05, The Old Mole wrote: > > > > Actually, I'm the only illiterate on the list. > > > > > > Tad Richards > > www.opus40.org > > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul Murphy" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > > > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > > > > > > > what the f*** does this sentence mean? is everyone > > > on this list illiterate? (apart from his repulsive > > > politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with the > > > best English on this list) > > > > > > --- The Old Mole wrote: > > > > > >> The folks who called themselves the Neocons, whether > > >> they were or not, were > > >> the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that would > > >> include Prof. Himmelfarb. > > >> By the way, what did her friends call her? > > >> > > >> > > >> Tad Richards > > >> www.opus40.org > > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Paul Murphy" > > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM > > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > > >> > > >> > > >> > the Neocons were not the Wilsonian > > >> > internationalists...which book did you get this > > >> from > > >> > and what brand of fantasy politics do you ascribe > > >> to? > > >> > Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule of > > >> > international law, not in itself a conservative > > >> aim, > > >> > conservatism being particularlist and nationalist. > > >> > The ideal of the League of Nations was a key > > >> Liberal > > >> > policy and its origins come from the Left. > > >> > > > >> > --- ELEMENOPE Productions > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Mole, > > >> >> > > >> >> You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb is > > >> for > > >> >> Judge Bork what > > >> >> Ann Coulter is for me. > > >> >> > > >> >> Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's just > > >> an > > >> >> old fashioned > > >> >> Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, or > > >> >> Coolidge (Calvin). > > >> >> > > >> >> The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian > > >> >> Internationalists who tried > > >> >> to stop your buddy, Lenin, although Wolfowitz, > > >> when > > >> >> asked, didn't > > >> >> like the comparison. I guess he'd call himself a > > >> >> Straussian, but, > > >> >> anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I > > >> would > > >> >> have supposed > > >> >> you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing for > > >> the > > >> >> recapturing of > > >> >> Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 Migs > > >> and > > >> >> then the > > >> >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down there > > >> >> organized around G's > > >> >> new anthology. > > >> >> > > >> >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Message: 4 > > >> >> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 > > >> >> From: "The Old Mole" < tad at opus40.org> > > >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home > > >> >> To: > > >> >> Message-ID: > > >> <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >> >> > > >> >> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone tell > > >> me > > >> >> what Gertrude > > >> >> Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Tad Richards > > >> >> www.opus40.org > > >> >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > >> >> > > >> >> -- > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> >> > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > __________________________________________________ > > >> > Do You Yahoo!? > > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > >> protection around > > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > New-Poetry mailing list > > >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 10:36:12 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <001701c56dc6$3a5924c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <20050610143612.24130.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> why do you call yourself Old Mole? Why not call yourself 'illiterate cretin'? --- The Old Mole wrote: > Actually, I'm the only illiterate on the list. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Murphy" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > > > > what the f*** does this sentence mean? is > everyone > > on this list illiterate? (apart from his > repulsive > > politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with > the > > best English on this list) > > > > --- The Old Mole wrote: > > > >> The folks who called themselves the Neocons, > whether > >> they were or not, were > >> the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that would > >> include Prof. Himmelfarb. > >> By the way, what did her friends call her? > >> > >> > >> Tad Richards > >> www.opus40.org > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Paul Murphy" > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,Views" > >> > >> > >> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > >> > >> > >> > the Neocons were not the Wilsonian > >> > internationalists...which book did you get this > >> from > >> > and what brand of fantasy politics do you > ascribe > >> to? > >> > Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule > of > >> > international law, not in itself a conservative > >> aim, > >> > conservatism being particularlist and > nationalist. > >> > The ideal of the League of Nations was a key > >> Liberal > >> > policy and its origins come from the Left. > >> > > >> > --- ELEMENOPE Productions > > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> Mole, > >> >> > >> >> You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb > is > >> for > >> >> Judge Bork what > >> >> Ann Coulter is for me. > >> >> > >> >> Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's > just > >> an > >> >> old fashioned > >> >> Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, or > >> >> Coolidge (Calvin). > >> >> > >> >> The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian > >> >> Internationalists who tried > >> >> to stop your buddy, Lenin, although Wolfowitz, > >> when > >> >> asked, didn't > >> >> like the comparison. I guess he'd call > himself a > >> >> Straussian, but, > >> >> anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I > >> would > >> >> have supposed > >> >> you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing > for > >> the > >> >> recapturing of > >> >> Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 > Migs > >> and > >> >> then the > >> >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down there > >> >> organized around G's > >> >> new anthology. > >> >> > >> >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Message: 4 > >> >> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 > >> >> From: "The Old Mole" > >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home > >> >> To: > >> >> Message-ID: > >> <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> >> > >> >> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone > tell > >> me > >> >> what Gertrude > >> >> Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Tad Richards > >> >> www.opus40.org > >> >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >> > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > __________________________________________________ > >> > Do You Yahoo!? > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > >> protection around > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > New-Poetry mailing list > >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html From clitophon at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 10:38:08 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05061007202e2149fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050610143808.13321.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> look Old Mole, go and have intercourse with Old Vole are you from 'Wind in the Willows? or some other fictional poolyverse? read the words, don't count them.... --- Jeff Newberry wrote: > No-no! Wiat! I be lyeliterated, 2!!! > Jeff Newberry > > On 6/10/05, The Old Mole wrote: > > > > Actually, I'm the only illiterate on the list. > > > > > > Tad Richards > > www.opus40.org > > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul Murphy" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,Views" > > > > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > > > > > > > what the f*** does this sentence mean? is > everyone > > > on this list illiterate? (apart from his > repulsive > > > politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with > the > > > best English on this list) > > > > > > --- The Old Mole wrote: > > > > > >> The folks who called themselves the Neocons, > whether > > >> they were or not, were > > >> the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that > would > > >> include Prof. Himmelfarb. > > >> By the way, what did her friends call her? > > >> > > >> > > >> Tad Richards > > >> www.opus40.org > > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Paul Murphy" > > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,Views" > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM > > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > > >> > > >> > > >> > the Neocons were not the Wilsonian > > >> > internationalists...which book did you get > this > > >> from > > >> > and what brand of fantasy politics do you > ascribe > > >> to? > > >> > Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule > of > > >> > international law, not in itself a > conservative > > >> aim, > > >> > conservatism being particularlist and > nationalist. > > >> > The ideal of the League of Nations was a key > > >> Liberal > > >> > policy and its origins come from the Left. > > >> > > > >> > --- ELEMENOPE Productions > > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Mole, > > >> >> > > >> >> You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb > is > > >> for > > >> >> Judge Bork what > > >> >> Ann Coulter is for me. > > >> >> > > >> >> Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's > just > > >> an > > >> >> old fashioned > > >> >> Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, > or > > >> >> Coolidge (Calvin). > > >> >> > > >> >> The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian > > >> >> Internationalists who tried > > >> >> to stop your buddy, Lenin, although > Wolfowitz, > > >> when > > >> >> asked, didn't > > >> >> like the comparison. I guess he'd call > himself a > > >> >> Straussian, but, > > >> >> anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I > > >> would > > >> >> have supposed > > >> >> you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing > for > > >> the > > >> >> recapturing of > > >> >> Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 > Migs > > >> and > > >> >> then the > > >> >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down > there > > >> >> organized around G's > > >> >> new anthology. > > >> >> > > >> >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Message: 4 > > >> >> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 > > >> >> From: "The Old Mole" > > >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home > > >> >> To: > > >> >> Message-ID: > > >> <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > >> >> > > >> >> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone > tell > > >> me > > >> >> what Gertrude > > >> >> Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Tad Richards > > >> >> www.opus40.org > > >> >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > >> >> > > >> >> -- > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> >> > > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > __________________________________________________ > > >> > Do You Yahoo!? > > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > >> protection around > > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > New-Poetry mailing list > > >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. > Shultz > === message truncated ===> _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 10 11:02:41 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:02:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <20050610143808.13321.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050610143808.13321.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A9AB91.9070802@ix.netcom.com> Paul, I'm certain we all desire that one day the authority of your content breathelssly catches up with the authority of your tone. If you want a partial but very influential list of current and very powerful "Neo-cons" go to the home page of 'The Project For A New American Century' and scroll down to the bottom for a list of founders. At last counting, 38 members of this 'neocon' organization serve in the current Cheney administration from ambassador to Iraq to head of the NSC etc. FIZZ Paul Murphy wrote: >look Old Mole, go and have intercourse with Old Vole >are you from 'Wind in the Willows? or some other >fictional poolyverse? read the words, don't count >them.... > >--- Jeff Newberry wrote: > > > >>No-no! Wiat! I be lyeliterated, 2!!! >> Jeff Newberry >> >> On 6/10/05, The Old Mole wrote: >> >> >>>Actually, I'm the only illiterate on the list. >>> >>> >>>Tad Richards >>>www.opus40.org >>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Paul Murphy" >>>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>> >>> >>&,Views" >> >> >>> >>>Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:50 AM >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>what the f*** does this sentence mean? is >>>> >>>> >>everyone >> >> >>>>on this list illiterate? (apart from his >>>> >>>> >>repulsive >> >> >>>>politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with >>>> >>>> >>the >> >> >>>>best English on this list) >>>> >>>>--- The Old Mole wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>The folks who called themselves the Neocons, >>>>> >>>>> >>whether >> >> >>>>>they were or not, were >>>>>the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that >>>>> >>>>> >>would >> >> >>>>>include Prof. Himmelfarb. >>>>>By the way, what did her friends call her? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Tad Richards >>>>>www.opus40.org >>>>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Paul Murphy" >>>>>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>>>> >>>>> >>&,Views" >> >> >>>>> >>>>>Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>the Neocons were not the Wilsonian >>>>>>internationalists...which book did you get >>>>>> >>>>>> >>this >> >> >>>>>from >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>and what brand of fantasy politics do you >>>>>> >>>>>> >>ascribe >> >> >>>>>to? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule >>>>>> >>>>>> >>of >> >> >>>>>>international law, not in itself a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>conservative >> >> >>>>>aim, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>conservatism being particularlist and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>nationalist. >> >> >>>>>>The ideal of the League of Nations was a key >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Liberal >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>policy and its origins come from the Left. >>>>>> >>>>>>--- ELEMENOPE Productions >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Mole, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>is >> >> >>>>>for >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>Judge Bork what >>>>>>>Ann Coulter is for me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>just >> >> >>>>>an >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>old fashioned >>>>>>>Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>or >> >> >>>>>>>Coolidge (Calvin). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian >>>>>>>Internationalists who tried >>>>>>>to stop your buddy, Lenin, although >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>Wolfowitz, >> >> >>>>>when >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>asked, didn't >>>>>>>like the comparison. I guess he'd call >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>himself a >> >> >>>>>>>Straussian, but, >>>>>>>anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>would >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>have supposed >>>>>>>you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>for >> >> >>>>>the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>recapturing of >>>>>>>Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>Migs >> >> >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>then the >>>>>>>inevitable anti-USA reading series down >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>there >> >> >>>>>>>organized around G's >>>>>>>new anthology. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>R i c h a r d D i l l o n >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Message: 4 >>>>>>>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 >>>>>>>From: "The Old Mole" >>>>>>>Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home >>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>Message-ID: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>><004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >>>>>>>Way way way off the subject, but can anyone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>tell >> >> >>>>>me >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>what Gertrude >>>>>>>Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Tad Richards >>>>>>>www.opus40.org >>>>>>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>_______________________________________________ >> >> >>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>__________________________________________________ >> >> >>>>>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>>>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>protection around >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>http://mail.yahoo.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>_______________________________________________ >> >> >>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>__________________________________________________ >> >> >>>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >>>> >>>> >>protection around >> >> >>>>http://mail.yahoo.com >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >>It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. >>Shultz >> >> >> >=== message truncated ===> >_______________________________________________ > > >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 10 11:07:47 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:07:47 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Jamie_wins_=A310=2C000=2C_Scots_book_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?prize_?= References: <1b8.14f99abc.2fdaf530@aol.com> <003501c56dc6$ffe35d50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <006901c56dce$29d36ea0$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Yep, Iowa is in Scotland, too--makin' the (moderately) big bucks. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jamie wins ?10,000, Scots book prize Mr and Mrs Scotland Are Dead On the civic amenity landfill site, the coup, the dump beyond the cemetery and the 30-mile-an-hour sign, her stiff old ladies' bags, open mouthed, spew postcards sent from small Scots towns in 1960: Peebles, Largs, the rock-gardens of Carnoustie, tinted in the dirt. Mr and Mrs Scotland, here is the hand you were dealt: fair but cool, showery but nevertheless, Jean asks kindly; the lovely scenery; in careful school-room script - The Beltane Queen was crowned today. But Mr and Mrs Scotland are dead. Couldn't he have burned them? Released in a grey curl of smoke this pattern for a cable knit? Or this: tossed between a toppled fridge and sweet-stinking anorak: Dictionary for Mothers M:- Milk, the woman who worries.; And here, Mr Scotland's John Bull Puncture Repair Kit; those days when he knew intimately the thin roads of his country, hedgerows hanged with small black brambles' hearts; and here, for God's sake, his last few joiners' tools, SCOTLAND, SCOTLAND, stamped on their tired handles. Do we take them? Before the bulldozer comes to make more room, to shove aside his shaving brush, her button tin. Do we save this toolbox, these old-fashioned views addressed, after all, to Mr and Mrs Scotland? Should we reach and take them? And then? Forget them, till that person enters our silent house, begins to open to the light our kitchen drawers, and performs for us this perfunctory rite: the sweeping up, the turning out. From Mr and Mrs Scotland Are Dead, by Kathleen Jamie Copyright ? Kathleen Jamie, 2002 Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 9:52 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Jamie wins ?10,000, Scots book prize http://news.scotsman.com/entertainment.cfm?id=636732005 Poet scoops ?10,000 top Scots book prize DAVID ROBINSON BOOKS EDITOR A "SUPERLATIVE" writer yesterday became the first poet to win Scotland's most valuable literary prize - the ?10,000 Scottish Book of the Year Award. Kathleen Jamie's collection, The Tree House, has already triumphed in Britain's two main poetry awards, winning the ?10,000 Forward Prize and being shortlisted for the TS Eliot Prize. Presenting the award at a ceremony in Edinburgh yesterday, Gavin Wallace, the Scottish Arts Council's head of literature, said that The Tree House "deserves every word of the extensive acclaim it has attracted". He added: "It brings poetry in Scotland to the very pinnacle of achievement in the art. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 10 11:12:35 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:12:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb References: <20050610143612.24130.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007901c56dce$d583ea90$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > why do you call yourself Old Mole? Why not call > yourself 'illiterate cretin'? Yeah!!!! Hunhunhunhuh. Why doncha, Mole!?? Hunhunhunhuh. (But leave "retrograde pretentious pseudo-artistic fascist degenerate" for me.) --Bob G. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 10 11:14:13 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:14:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <20050610125050.89805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050610125050.89805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A9AE45.7030004@ix.netcom.com> >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down there > >> organized around G's > >> new anthology. > >> > >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n> A safe lob from behind Uncle Slimy's machine. Typical. FIZZ Paul Murphy wrote: >what the f*** does this sentence mean? is everyone >on this list illiterate? (apart from his repulsive >politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with the >best English on this list) > >--- The Old Mole wrote: > > > >>The folks who called themselves the Neocons, whether >>they were or not, were >>the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that would >>include Prof. Himmelfarb. >>By the way, what did her friends call her? >> >> >>Tad Richards >>www.opus40.org >>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Paul Murphy" >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" >> >> >>Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb >> >> >> >> >>>the Neocons were not the Wilsonian >>>internationalists...which book did you get this >>> >>> >>from >> >> >>>and what brand of fantasy politics do you ascribe >>> >>> >>to? >> >> >>>Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule of >>>international law, not in itself a conservative >>> >>> >>aim, >> >> >>>conservatism being particularlist and nationalist. >>>The ideal of the League of Nations was a key >>> >>> >>Liberal >> >> >>>policy and its origins come from the Left. >>> >>>--- ELEMENOPE Productions >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Mole, >>>> >>>>You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb is >>>> >>>> >>for >> >> >>>>Judge Bork what >>>>Ann Coulter is for me. >>>> >>>>Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's just >>>> >>>> >>an >> >> >>>>old fashioned >>>>Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, or >>>>Coolidge (Calvin). >>>> >>>>The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian >>>>Internationalists who tried >>>>to stop your buddy, Lenin, although Wolfowitz, >>>> >>>> >>when >> >> >>>>asked, didn't >>>>like the comparison. I guess he'd call himself a >>>>Straussian, but, >>>>anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I >>>> >>>> >>would >> >> >>>>have supposed >>>>you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing for >>>> >>>> >>the >> >> >>>>recapturing of >>>>Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 Migs >>>> >>>> >>and >> >> >>>>then the >>>>inevitable anti-USA reading series down there >>>>organized around G's >>>>new anthology. >>>> >>>>R i c h a r d D i l l o n >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Message: 4 >>>>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 >>>>From: "The Old Mole" >>>>Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home >>>>To: >>>>Message-ID: >>>> >>>> >><004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> >> >> >>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>>> >>>>Way way way off the subject, but can anyone tell >>>> >>>> >>me >> >> >>>>what Gertrude >>>>Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? >>>> >>>> >>>>Tad Richards >>>>www.opus40.org >>>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>>>-- >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >>>__________________________________________________ >>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >>> >>> >>protection around >> >> >>>http://mail.yahoo.com >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 10 11:20:33 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:20:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <007901c56dce$d583ea90$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <20050610143612.24130.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> <007901c56dce$d583ea90$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42A9AFC1.6020502@ix.netcom.com> Bob Grumman wrote: "retrograde pretentious pseudo-artistic fascist degenerate" for me> Sorry, Bob. Its taken. How about "deluded narcissistic pseudo-artistic fascist malcontent"? FIZZ Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> why do you call yourself Old Mole? Why not call >> yourself 'illiterate cretin'? > > > Yeah!!!! Hunhunhunhuh. Why doncha, Mole!?? Hunhunhunhuh. > > (But leave "retrograde pretentious pseudo-artistic fascist degenerate" > for me.) > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jun 10 11:25:20 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:25:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great Graham Message-ID: No, not Jorie. W.S. Graham, whose *New Collected Poems* is discussed here: http://www.poems.com/essastef.htm Just in case anyone's up for looking at poetry. . . . Gigha That firewood pale with salt and burning green Outfloats its men who waved with a sound of drowning Their saltcut hands over mazes of this rough bay. Quietly this morning beside the subsided herds Of water I walk. The children wade the shallows. The sun with long legs wades into the sea. --W. S. Graham. *The White Threshold*. 1949. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 10 11:33:25 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:33:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great Graham In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A9B2C5.9040803@ix.netcom.com> Poetry doesn't begin 'gli umidi', from good ol' midwestern navel gazing for everyone, D. FIZZ David Graham wrote: >No, not Jorie. W.S. Graham, whose *New Collected Poems* is discussed here: > >http://www.poems.com/essastef.htm > >Just in case anyone's up for looking at poetry. . . . > > > >Gigha > >That firewood pale with salt and burning green >Outfloats its men who waved with a sound of drowning >Their saltcut hands over mazes of this rough bay. > >Quietly this morning beside the subsided herds >Of water I walk. The children wade the shallows. >The sun with long legs wades into the sea. > >--W. S. Graham. *The White Threshold*. 1949. > > > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >==================================================== > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From tad at opus40.org Fri Jun 10 11:41:13 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:41:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb References: <20050610143808.13321.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008201c56dd2$d8689720$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Wow, this is new. I hadn't thought of this as a flame list. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" To: "Jeff Newberry" ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > look Old Mole, go and have intercourse with Old Vole > are you from 'Wind in the Willows? or some other > fictional poolyverse? read the words, don't count > them.... > > --- Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> No-no! Wiat! I be lyeliterated, 2!!! >> Jeff Newberry >> >> On 6/10/05, The Old Mole wrote: >> > >> > Actually, I'm the only illiterate on the list. >> > >> > >> > Tad Richards >> > www.opus40.org >> > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Paul Murphy" >> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,Views" >> > >> > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:50 AM >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb >> > >> > >> > > what the f*** does this sentence mean? is >> everyone >> > > on this list illiterate? (apart from his >> repulsive >> > > politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with >> the >> > > best English on this list) >> > > >> > > --- The Old Mole wrote: >> > > >> > >> The folks who called themselves the Neocons, >> whether >> > >> they were or not, were >> > >> the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that >> would >> > >> include Prof. Himmelfarb. >> > >> By the way, what did her friends call her? >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Tad Richards >> > >> www.opus40.org >> > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> > >> From: "Paul Murphy" >> > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,Views" >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM >> > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > the Neocons were not the Wilsonian >> > >> > internationalists...which book did you get >> this >> > >> from >> > >> > and what brand of fantasy politics do you >> ascribe >> > >> to? >> > >> > Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule >> of >> > >> > international law, not in itself a >> conservative >> > >> aim, >> > >> > conservatism being particularlist and >> nationalist. >> > >> > The ideal of the League of Nations was a key >> > >> Liberal >> > >> > policy and its origins come from the Left. >> > >> > >> > >> > --- ELEMENOPE Productions >> >> > >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> Mole, >> > >> >> >> > >> >> You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb >> is >> > >> for >> > >> >> Judge Bork what >> > >> >> Ann Coulter is for me. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's >> just >> > >> an >> > >> >> old fashioned >> > >> >> Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, >> or >> > >> >> Coolidge (Calvin). >> > >> >> >> > >> >> The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian >> > >> >> Internationalists who tried >> > >> >> to stop your buddy, Lenin, although >> Wolfowitz, >> > >> when >> > >> >> asked, didn't >> > >> >> like the comparison. I guess he'd call >> himself a >> > >> >> Straussian, but, >> > >> >> anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I >> > >> would >> > >> >> have supposed >> > >> >> you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing >> for >> > >> the >> > >> >> recapturing of >> > >> >> Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 >> Migs >> > >> and >> > >> >> then the >> > >> >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down >> there >> > >> >> organized around G's >> > >> >> new anthology. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Message: 4 >> > >> >> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 >> > >> >> From: "The Old Mole" >> > >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home >> > >> >> To: >> > >> >> Message-ID: >> > >> <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> >> > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone >> tell >> > >> me >> > >> >> what Gertrude >> > >> >> Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Tad Richards >> > >> >> www.opus40.org >> > >> >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> > >> >> >> > >> >> -- >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >> > >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > >> >> >> > >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________ >> > >> > Do You Yahoo!? >> > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> > >> protection around >> > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > >> > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> New-Poetry mailing list >> > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> __________________________________________________ >> > > Do You Yahoo!? >> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> protection around >> > > http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > New-Poetry mailing list >> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. >> Shultz >> > === message truncated ===> > _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Fri Jun 10 11:46:02 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:46:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb References: <20050610143808.13321.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> <42A9AB91.9070802@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <008f01c56dd3$850288b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I'm only interested in this because I'm writing a novel about the 50s in which Irving Kristol makes a cameo appearance, and I wanted to know, for purposes of verisimilitude, what close friends called Prof. Himmelfarb. I had no desire to start a flame war or political fight of any kind. Thanks to Donna Casinghino, who did a little research and backchanneled me. Why I call myself "Old Mole" is a long and uninteresting story. Why I don't call myself "illiterate cretin" is that I don't see myself, or anyone else on this list, in that light. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alphaville" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > Paul, > > I'm certain we all desire that one day the authority of your content > breathelssly catches up with the authority of your tone. If you want a > partial but very influential list of current and very powerful "Neo-cons" > go to the home page of 'The Project For A New American Century' and scroll > down to the bottom for a list of founders. At last counting, 38 members of > this 'neocon' organization serve in the current Cheney administration from > ambassador to Iraq to head of the NSC etc. FIZZ > > > > Paul Murphy wrote: > >>look Old Mole, go and have intercourse with Old Vole >>are you from 'Wind in the Willows? or some other >>fictional poolyverse? read the words, don't count >>them.... >> >>--- Jeff Newberry wrote: >> >> >>>No-no! Wiat! I be lyeliterated, 2!!! Jeff Newberry >>> >>> On 6/10/05, The Old Mole wrote: >>>>Actually, I'm the only illiterate on the list. >>>> >>>> >>>>Tad Richards >>>>www.opus40.org >>>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Paul Murphy" >>>>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>>> >>>&,Views" >>> >>>> >>>>Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:50 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>what the f*** does this sentence mean? is >>>>> >>>everyone >>> >>>>>on this list illiterate? (apart from his >>>>> >>>repulsive >>> >>>>>politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with >>>>> >>>the >>> >>>>>best English on this list) >>>>> >>>>>--- The Old Mole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>The folks who called themselves the Neocons, >>>>>> >>>whether >>> >>>>>>they were or not, were >>>>>>the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that >>>>>> >>>would >>> >>>>>>include Prof. Himmelfarb. >>>>>>By the way, what did her friends call her? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Tad Richards >>>>>>www.opus40.org >>>>>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>From: "Paul Murphy" >>>>>>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>>>>> >>>&,Views" >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM >>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>the Neocons were not the Wilsonian >>>>>>>internationalists...which book did you get >>>>>>> >>>this >>> >>>>>>from >>>>>> >>>>>>>and what brand of fantasy politics do you >>>>>>> >>>ascribe >>> >>>>>>to? >>>>>> >>>>>>>Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule >>>>>>> >>>of >>> >>>>>>>international law, not in itself a >>>>>>> >>>conservative >>> >>>>>>aim, >>>>>> >>>>>>>conservatism being particularlist and >>>>>>> >>>nationalist. >>> >>>>>>>The ideal of the League of Nations was a key >>>>>>> >>>>>>Liberal >>>>>> >>>>>>>policy and its origins come from the Left. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>--- ELEMENOPE Productions >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Mole, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb >>>>>>>> >>>is >>> >>>>>>for >>>>>> >>>>>>>>Judge Bork what >>>>>>>>Ann Coulter is for me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's >>>>>>>> >>>just >>> >>>>>>an >>>>>> >>>>>>>>old fashioned >>>>>>>>Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, >>>>>>>> >>>or >>> >>>>>>>>Coolidge (Calvin). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian >>>>>>>>Internationalists who tried >>>>>>>>to stop your buddy, Lenin, although >>>>>>>> >>>Wolfowitz, >>> >>>>>>when >>>>>> >>>>>>>>asked, didn't >>>>>>>>like the comparison. I guess he'd call >>>>>>>> >>>himself a >>> >>>>>>>>Straussian, but, >>>>>>>>anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I >>>>>>>> >>>>>>would >>>>>> >>>>>>>>have supposed >>>>>>>>you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing >>>>>>>> >>>for >>> >>>>>>the >>>>>> >>>>>>>>recapturing of >>>>>>>>Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 >>>>>>>> >>>Migs >>> >>>>>>and >>>>>> >>>>>>>>then the >>>>>>>>inevitable anti-USA reading series down >>>>>>>> >>>there >>> >>>>>>>>organized around G's >>>>>>>>new anthology. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>R i c h a r d D i l l o n >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Message: 4 >>>>>>>>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 >>>>>>>>From: "The Old Mole" >>>>>>>>Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home >>>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>>Message-ID: >>>>>>>> >>>>>><004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; >>>>>>>> >>>charset="iso-8859-1" >>> >>>>>>>>Way way way off the subject, but can anyone >>>>>>>> >>>tell >>> >>>>>>me >>>>>> >>>>>>>>what Gertrude >>>>>>>>Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Tad Richards >>>>>>>>www.opus40.org >>>>>>>>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>__________________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>>>>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >>>>>>> >>>>>>protection around >>>>>> >>>>>>>http://mail.yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>__________________________________________________ >>> >>>>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >>>>> >>>protection around >>> >>>>>http://mail.yahoo.com >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>>-- >>>"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >>>It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. >>>Shultz >>> >>> >>=== message truncated ===> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 10 11:59:09 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:59:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <008201c56dd2$d8689720$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <20050610143808.13321.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> <008201c56dd2$d8689720$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <42A9B8CD.1090809@ix.netcom.com> Now stop there. If you don't mean by 'flaming' the brutally abstracted policies of The Project For a New American Century and Richard Dillon's gift for hiding in the crowd at such murderous barbecues, then you must be referring to a forthcoming mid-western 'rroids' ditty later today. FIZZ The Old Mole wrote: > Wow, this is new. I hadn't thought of this as a flame list. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" > To: "Jeff Newberry" ; "NewPoetry: > Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 10:38 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb > > >> look Old Mole, go and have intercourse with Old Vole >> are you from 'Wind in the Willows? or some other >> fictional poolyverse? read the words, don't count >> them.... >> >> --- Jeff Newberry wrote: >> >>> No-no! Wiat! I be lyeliterated, 2!!! >>> Jeff Newberry >>> >>> On 6/10/05, The Old Mole wrote: >>> > >>> > Actually, I'm the only illiterate on the list. >>> > >>> > >>> > Tad Richards >>> > www.opus40.org >>> > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "Paul Murphy" >>> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>> &,Views" >>> > >>> > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:50 AM >>> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb >>> > >>> > >>> > > what the f*** does this sentence mean? is >>> everyone >>> > > on this list illiterate? (apart from his >>> repulsive >>> > > politics, Dillinger seems to be the person with >>> the >>> > > best English on this list) >>> > > >>> > > --- The Old Mole wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> The folks who called themselves the Neocons, >>> whether >>> > >> they were or not, were >>> > >> the Podhoretzes and the Kristols, and that >>> would >>> > >> include Prof. Himmelfarb. >>> > >> By the way, what did her friends call her? >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> Tad Richards >>> > >> www.opus40.org >>> > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> > >> From: "Paul Murphy" >>> > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >>> &,Views" >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:22 AM >>> > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> > the Neocons were not the Wilsonian >>> > >> > internationalists...which book did you get >>> this >>> > >> from >>> > >> > and what brand of fantasy politics do you >>> ascribe >>> > >> to? >>> > >> > Woodrow Wilson dreamt or believed in the rule >>> of >>> > >> > international law, not in itself a >>> conservative >>> > >> aim, >>> > >> > conservatism being particularlist and >>> nationalist. >>> > >> > The ideal of the League of Nations was a key >>> > >> Liberal >>> > >> > policy and its origins come from the Left. >>> > >> > >>> > >> > --- ELEMENOPE Productions >>> >>> > >> > wrote: >>> > >> > >>> > >> >> Mole, >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> You might ask Bob Bork. Professor Himmelfarb >>> is >>> > >> for >>> > >> >> Judge Bork what >>> > >> >> Ann Coulter is for me. >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> Oh, by the way, she's not a NeoCon. She's >>> just >>> > >> an >>> > >> >> old fashioned >>> > >> >> Conservative, like Bork, or Rummy, or Rush, >>> or >>> > >> >> Coolidge (Calvin). >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> The NeoCons were long ago the Wilsonian >>> > >> >> Internationalists who tried >>> > >> >> to stop your buddy, Lenin, although >>> Wolfowitz, >>> > >> when >>> > >> >> asked, didn't >>> > >> >> like the comparison. I guess he'd call >>> himself a >>> > >> >> Straussian, but, >>> > >> >> anyway, why are you so cutely interested? I >>> > >> would >>> > >> >> have supposed >>> > >> >> you'd be busy reading "Iovis" and preparing >>> for >>> > >> the >>> > >> >> recapturing of >>> > >> >> Grenada by Tyrannosaurus Chavez with his 60 >>> Migs >>> > >> and >>> > >> >> then the >>> > >> >> inevitable anti-USA reading series down >>> there >>> > >> >> organized around G's >>> > >> >> new anthology. >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> Message: 4 >>> > >> >> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:44 -0400 >>> > >> >> From: "The Old Mole" >>> > >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] The NeoCons at Home >>> > >> >> To: >>> > >> >> Message-ID: >>> > >> <004d01c56c4f$1dc73d60$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> >>> > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; >>> charset="iso-8859-1" >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> Way way way off the subject, but can anyone >>> tell >>> > >> me >>> > >> >> what Gertrude >>> > >> >> Himmelfarb is to her friends? Gertie? Trudy? >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> Tad Richards >>> > >> >> www.opus40.org >>> > >> >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> -- >>> > >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >>> > >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> > >> >> >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> __________________________________________________ >>> > >> > Do You Yahoo!? >>> > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >>> > >> protection around >>> > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> > New-Poetry mailing list >>> > >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> > >> > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> New-Poetry mailing list >>> > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> > >> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> __________________________________________________ >>> > > Do You Yahoo!? >>> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >>> protection around >>> > > http://mail.yahoo.com >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > New-Poetry mailing list >>> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> > > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > New-Poetry mailing list >>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >>> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. >>> Shultz >>> >> === message truncated ===> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From uche at ogbuji.net Fri Jun 10 12:58:41 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:58:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Map of the Bear", etc. In-Reply-To: <002d01c56c45$e8640760$ea8d3052@ANNY> References: <1118236188.8026.120.camel@malatesta> <002d01c56c45$e8640760$ea8d3052@ANNY> Message-ID: <1118422721.8026.160.camel@malatesta> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 18:19 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Well thank you very much Uche, after a full day still on the go - go > with the dreaded teachers' meeting up till now, your post on your > Quotidie cheered me up, > best to you, Cheering you up is a fine bonus. BTW, Tad, I saw your comment (thanks for making that point), and responded. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Fri Jun 10 14:14:13 2005 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:14:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professor Himmelfarb and the Unitarian Jihad In-Reply-To: <008f01c56dd3$850288b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <20050610143808.13321.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> <42A9AB91.9070802@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050610125814.02054b38@cyrus.undsmhs.net> Those who are diverting themselves on the list by inventing ever nastier names for ourselves or others might consider joining the Unitarian Jihad, as explained by their manifesto, reprinted in the April 8, 2005, _San Francisco Chronicle_ : "Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States. We are Unitarian Jihad. There is only God, unless there is more than one God. The vote of our God subcommittee is 10-8 in favor of one God, with two abstentions. Brother Flaming Sword of Moderation noted the possibility of there being no God at all, and his objection was noted with love by the secretary. "Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States! Too long has your attention been waylaid by the bright baubles of extremist thought. Too long have fundamentalist yahoos of all religions (except Buddhism -- 14-5 vote, no abstentions, fundamentalism subcommittee) made your head hurt. Too long have you been buffeted by angry people who think that God talks to them. You have a right to your moderation! You have the power to be calm! We will use the IED of truth to explode the SUV of dogmatic expression! "People of the United States, why is everyone yelling at you??? Whatever happened to ... you know, everything? Why is the news dominated by nutballs saying that the Ten Commandments have to be tattooed inside the eyelids of every American, or that Allah has told them to kill Americans in order to rid the world of Satan, or that Yahweh has instructed them to go live wherever they feel like, or that Shiva thinks bombing mosques is a great idea? Sister Immaculate Dagger of Peace notes for the record that we mean no disrespect to Jews, Muslims, Christians or Hindus. Referred back to the committee of the whole for further discussion. "We are Unitarian Jihad. We are everywhere. We have not been born again, nor have we sworn a blood oath. We do not think that God cares what we read, what we eat or whom we sleep with. Brother Neutron Bomb of Serenity notes for the record that he does not have a moral code but is nevertheless a good person, and Unexalted Leader Garrote of Forgiveness stipulates that Brother Neutron Bomb of Serenity is a good person, and this is to be reflected in the minutes. "Beware! Unless you people shut up and begin acting like grown-ups with brains enough to understand the difference between political belief and personal faith, the Unitarian Jihad will begin a series of terrorist-like actions. We will take over television studios, kidnap so-called commentators and broadcast calm, well-reasoned discussions of the issues of the day. We will not try for "balance" by hiring fruitcakes; we will try for balance by hiring non-ideologues who have carefully thought through the issues. "We are Unitarian Jihad. We will appear in public places and require people to shake hands with each other. (Sister Hand Grenade of Love suggested that we institute a terror regime of mandatory hugging, but her motion was not formally introduced because of lack of a quorum.) We will require all lobbyists, spokesmen and campaign managers to dress like trout in public. Televangelists will be forced to take jobs as Xerox repair specialists. Demagogues of all stripes will be required to read Proust out loud in prisons. "We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: "Sincerity is not enough." We have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. Just because you believe it's true doesn't make it true. Just because your motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm. Get a dog, or comfort someone in a nursing home, or just feed the birds in the park. Play basketball. Lighten up. The world is not out to get you, except in the sense that the world is out to get everyone. "Brother Gatling Gun of Patience notes that he's pretty sure the world is out to get him because everyone laughs when he says he is a Unitarian. There were murmurs of assent around the room, and someone suggested that we buy some Congress members and really stick it to the Baptists. But this was deemed against Revolutionary Principles, and Brother Gatling Gun of Patience was remanded to the Sunday Flowers and Banners committee. "People of the United States! We are Unitarian Jihad! We can strike without warning. Pockets of reasonableness and harmony will appear as if from nowhere! Nice people will run the government again! There will be coffee and cookies in the Gandhi Room after the revolution." Richard W. Wilsnack Conquering Lion of Cosmic Uncertainty rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 10 14:18:53 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:18:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professor Himmelfarb and the Unitarian Jihad In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050610125814.02054b38@cyrus.undsmhs.net> References: <20050610143808.13321.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> <42A9AB91.9070802@ix.netcom.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20050610125814.02054b38@cyrus.undsmhs.net> Message-ID: <42A9D98D.4040404@ix.netcom.com> Kind of head in the sand. Don't you think? FIZZ I was just penning this. Public Broadcasting Blamed By House Republicans For Slowdown In Iraq Oil Grab Enlistees: ""Sesame Steet," "Reading Rainbow," "Education In General" Is Making 'Pussies' Of Our Babies"" Cries Public Broadcasting Chairman Kenneth Y. Tomlinson: "We Don't Need People Who Can Read. We Need Embittered, Knuckledragging, Toby Keith Conned, Ignorant Christian Soldiers And Their Crystal Meth, Home Shopping Network, Jesus In the Schools, Red Neck Women Like Was On Andy Of Mayberry And That Delusional Towhead What Makes Fantastical Fightin' Fishwrap Now," Yelped Ralph 'Rags' Regula(R.-Ohio) Panel Seeks to End CPB's Funding Within 2 Years, Buy Up Affiliates Spread the Gospel By TALL FOOEY Assassinated Pres Staff Writer Friday, June 10, 2005 Richard Wilsnack wrote: > Those who are diverting themselves on the list by inventing ever > nastier names for ourselves or others might consider joining the > Unitarian Jihad, as explained by their manifesto, reprinted in the > April 8, 2005, _San Francisco Chronicle_ : > > "Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States. We are > Unitarian Jihad. There is only God, unless there is more than one God. > The vote of our God subcommittee is 10-8 in favor of one God, with two > abstentions. Brother Flaming Sword of Moderation noted the possibility > of there being no God at all, and his objection was noted with love by > the secretary. > > "Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States! Too long > has your attention been waylaid by the bright baubles of extremist > thought. Too long have fundamentalist yahoos of all religions (except > Buddhism -- 14-5 vote, no abstentions, fundamentalism subcommittee) > made your head hurt. Too long have you been buffeted by angry people > who think that God talks to them. You have a right to your moderation! > You have the power to be calm! We will use the IED of truth to explode > the SUV of dogmatic expression! > > "People of the United States, why is everyone yelling at you??? > Whatever happened to ... you know, everything? Why is the news > dominated by nutballs saying that the Ten Commandments have to be > tattooed inside the eyelids of every American, or that Allah has told > them to kill Americans in order to rid the world of Satan, or that > Yahweh has instructed them to go live wherever they feel like, or that > Shiva thinks bombing mosques is a great idea? Sister Immaculate Dagger > of Peace notes for the record that we mean no disrespect to Jews, > Muslims, Christians or Hindus. Referred back to the committee of the > whole for further discussion. > > "We are Unitarian Jihad. We are everywhere. We have not been born > again, nor have we sworn a blood oath. We do not think that God cares > what we read, what we eat or whom we sleep with. Brother Neutron Bomb > of Serenity notes for the record that he does not have a moral code > but is nevertheless a good person, and Unexalted Leader Garrote of > Forgiveness stipulates that Brother Neutron Bomb of Serenity is a good > person, and this is to be reflected in the minutes. > > "Beware! Unless you people shut up and begin acting like grown-ups > with brains enough to understand the difference between political > belief and personal faith, the Unitarian Jihad will begin a series of > terrorist-like actions. We will take over television studios, kidnap > so-called commentators and broadcast calm, well-reasoned discussions > of the issues of the day. We will not try for "balance" by hiring > fruitcakes; we will try for balance by hiring non-ideologues who have > carefully thought through the issues. > > "We are Unitarian Jihad. We will appear in public places and require > people to shake hands with each other. (Sister Hand Grenade of Love > suggested that we institute a terror regime of mandatory hugging, but > her motion was not formally introduced because of lack of a quorum.) > We will require all lobbyists, spokesmen and campaign managers to > dress like trout in public. Televangelists will be forced to take jobs > as Xerox repair specialists. Demagogues of all stripes will be > required to read Proust out loud in prisons. > > "We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: "Sincerity is not enough." > We have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. > Just because you believe it's true doesn't make it true. Just because > your motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm. Get a dog, > or comfort someone in a nursing home, or just feed the birds in the > park. Play basketball. Lighten up. The world is not out to get you, > except in the sense that the world is out to get everyone. > > "Brother Gatling Gun of Patience notes that he's pretty sure the world > is out to get him because everyone laughs when he says he is a > Unitarian. There were murmurs of assent around the room, and someone > suggested that we buy some Congress members and really stick it to the > Baptists. But this was deemed against Revolutionary Principles, and > Brother Gatling Gun of Patience was remanded to the Sunday Flowers and > Banners committee. > > "People of the United States! We are Unitarian Jihad! We can strike > without warning. Pockets of reasonableness and harmony will appear as > if from nowhere! Nice people will run the government again! There will > be coffee and cookies in the Gandhi Room after the revolution." > > Richard W. Wilsnack > Conquering Lion of Cosmic Uncertainty > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From snakecharmer at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 14:22:13 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:22:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professor Himmelfarb and the Unitarian Jihad In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050610125814.02054b38@cyrus.undsmhs.net> References: <20050610143808.13321.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> <42A9AB91.9070802@ix.netcom.com> <008f01c56dd3$850288b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <5.2.1.1.0.20050610125814.02054b38@cyrus.undsmhs.net> Message-ID: <33abf2750506101122e028299@mail.gmail.com> Richard, thanks for the chuckle. I really needed that today. On 6/10/05, Richard Wilsnack wrote: > > Those who are diverting themselves on the list by inventing ever nastier > names for ourselves or others might consider joining the Unitarian Jihad, > as explained by their manifesto, reprinted in the April 8, 2005, _San > Francisco Chronicle_ : > > "Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States. We are > Unitarian Jihad. There is only God, unless there is more than one God. The > vote of our God subcommittee is 10-8 in favor of one God, with two > abstentions. Brother Flaming Sword of Moderation noted the possibility of > there being no God at all, and his objection was noted with love by the > secretary. > > "Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States! Too long has > your attention been waylaid by the bright baubles of extremist thought. > Too > long have fundamentalist yahoos of all religions (except Buddhism -- 14-5 > vote, no abstentions, fundamentalism subcommittee) made your head hurt. > Too > long have you been buffeted by angry people who think that God talks to > them. You have a right to your moderation! You have the power to be calm! > We will use the IED of truth to explode the SUV of dogmatic expression! > > "People of the United States, why is everyone yelling at you??? Whatever > happened to ... you know, everything? Why is the news dominated by > nutballs > saying that the Ten Commandments have to be tattooed inside the eyelids of > every American, or that Allah has told them to kill Americans in order to > rid the world of Satan, or that Yahweh has instructed them to go live > wherever they feel like, or that Shiva thinks bombing mosques is a great > idea? Sister Immaculate Dagger of Peace notes for the record that we mean > no disrespect to Jews, Muslims, Christians or Hindus. Referred back to the > committee of the whole for further discussion. > > "We are Unitarian Jihad. We are everywhere. We have not been born again, > nor have we sworn a blood oath. We do not think that God cares what we > read, what we eat or whom we sleep with. Brother Neutron Bomb of Serenity > notes for the record that he does not have a moral code but is > nevertheless > a good person, and Unexalted Leader Garrote of Forgiveness stipulates that > Brother Neutron Bomb of Serenity is a good person, and this is to be > reflected in the minutes. > > "Beware! Unless you people shut up and begin acting like grown-ups with > brains enough to understand the difference between political belief and > personal faith, the Unitarian Jihad will begin a series of terrorist-like > actions. We will take over television studios, kidnap so-called > commentators and broadcast calm, well-reasoned discussions of the issues > of > the day. We will not try for "balance" by hiring fruitcakes; we will try > for balance by hiring non-ideologues who have carefully thought through > the > issues. > > "We are Unitarian Jihad. We will appear in public places and require > people > to shake hands with each other. (Sister Hand Grenade of Love suggested > that > we institute a terror regime of mandatory hugging, but her motion was not > formally introduced because of lack of a quorum.) We will require all > lobbyists, spokesmen and campaign managers to dress like trout in public. > Televangelists will be forced to take jobs as Xerox repair specialists. > Demagogues of all stripes will be required to read Proust out loud in > prisons. > > "We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: "Sincerity is not enough." We > have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. Just > because you believe it's true doesn't make it true. Just because your > motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm. Get a dog, or > comfort > someone in a nursing home, or just feed the birds in the park. Play > basketball. Lighten up. The world is not out to get you, except in the > sense that the world is out to get everyone. > > "Brother Gatling Gun of Patience notes that he's pretty sure the world is > out to get him because everyone laughs when he says he is a Unitarian. > There were murmurs of assent around the room, and someone suggested that > we > buy some Congress members and really stick it to the Baptists. But this > was > deemed against Revolutionary Principles, and Brother Gatling Gun of > Patience was remanded to the Sunday Flowers and Banners committee. > > "People of the United States! We are Unitarian Jihad! We can strike > without > warning. Pockets of reasonableness and harmony will appear as if from > nowhere! Nice people will run the government again! There will be coffee > and cookies in the Gandhi Room after the revolution." > > Richard W. Wilsnack > Conquering Lion of Cosmic Uncertainty > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 10 14:31:01 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:31:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb References: <20050610143612.24130.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com><007901c56dce$d583ea90$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <42A9AFC1.6020502@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <00ad01c56dea$8e6389b0$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob Grumman wrote: > > "retrograde pretentious pseudo-artistic fascist degenerate" for me> > > Sorry, Bob. Its taken. How about "deluded narcissistic pseudo-artistic > fascist malcontent"? > FIZZ > Sure, thing, FIZZ--anything with "pseudo-artistic fascist" in it is okay by me. --Bob G. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 10 14:34:07 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:34:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <00ad01c56dea$8e6389b0$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <20050610143612.24130.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com><007901c56dce$d583ea90$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <42A9AFC1.6020502@ix.netcom.com> <00ad01c56dea$8e6389b0$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42A9DD1F.1090700@ix.netcom.com> Yea. I figured "fascist" was non-negotiable. It would call your whole enterprise into question. FIZZ Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> "retrograde pretentious pseudo-artistic fascist degenerate" for me> >> >> Sorry, Bob. Its taken. How about "deluded narcissistic >> pseudo-artistic fascist malcontent"? >> FIZZ >> > Sure, thing, FIZZ--anything with "pseudo-artistic fascist" in it is > okay by me. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 10 15:00:10 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:00:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb References: <20050610143612.24130.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com><007901c56dce$d583ea90$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <42A9AFC1.6020502@ix.netcom.com><00ad01c56dea$8e6389b0$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <42A9DD1F.1090700@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <00e501c56dee$a09831e0$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Yea. I figured "fascist" was non-negotiable. It would call your whole > enterprise into question. FIZZ I didn't say it was required. The substitution of "baby-killing" for it, in fact, would be even better, and certainly would fit in better with my "whole enterprise." --Bob G. >>> Bob Grumman wrote: >>> >>> "retrograde pretentious pseudo-artistic fascist degenerate" for me> >>> >>> Sorry, Bob. Its taken. How about "deluded narcissistic pseudo-artistic >>> fascist malcontent"? >>> FIZZ >>> >> Sure, thing, FIZZ--anything with "pseudo-artistic fascist" in it is okay >> by me. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 10 16:36:13 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:36:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb In-Reply-To: <00e501c56dee$a09831e0$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <20050610143612.24130.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com><007901c56dce$d583ea90$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <42A9AFC1.6020502@ix.netcom.com><00ad01c56dea$8e6389b0$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <42A9DD1F.1090700@ix.netcom.com> <00e501c56dee$a09831e0$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42A9F9BD.6070500@ix.netcom.com> The last word. Uche says <"Stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content."> Bob Grumman wrote: >> Yea. I figured "fascist" was non-negotiable. It would call your whole >> enterprise into question. FIZZ > > > I didn't say it was required. The substitution of "baby-killing" for > it, in fact, would be even better, and certainly would fit in better > with my "whole enterprise." > > --Bob G. > >>>> Bob Grumman wrote: >>>> >>>> "retrograde pretentious pseudo-artistic fascist degenerate" for me> >>>> >>>> Sorry, Bob. Its taken. How about "deluded narcissistic >>>> pseudo-artistic fascist malcontent"? >>>> FIZZ >>>> >>> Sure, thing, FIZZ--anything with "pseudo-artistic fascist" in it is >>> okay by me. >>> >>> --Bob G. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jun 10 19:04:34 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:04:34 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great Graham In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Raise my glass to W.S.; so glad to see he's getting taken as seriously as he deserves at last P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Graham > Sent: 10 June 2005 16:25 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Great Graham > > No, not Jorie. W.S. Graham, whose *New Collected Poems* is > discussed here: > > http://www.poems.com/essastef.htm > > Just in case anyone's up for looking at poetry. . . . > > > > Gigha > > That firewood pale with salt and burning green Outfloats its > men who waved with a sound of drowning Their saltcut hands > over mazes of this rough bay. > > Quietly this morning beside the subsided herds Of water I > walk. The children wade the shallows. > The sun with long legs wades into the sea. > > --W. S. Graham. *The White Threshold*. 1949. > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bardo at optonline.net Fri Jun 10 22:51:53 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:51:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professor Himmelfarb and the Unitarian Jihad References: <20050610143808.13321.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> <42A9AB91.9070802@ix.netcom.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20050610125814.02054b38@cyrus.undsmhs.net> Message-ID: <00cc01c56e30$85cedf20$3a95c044@MULDER> Thoroughly canonical, Richard, and quite apt. ~ Brother Dan Anthraxwalla, Purveyor of Terminal Grins ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Wilsnack" To: Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 2:14 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professor Himmelfarb and the Unitarian Jihad > Those who are diverting themselves on the list by inventing ever nastier > names for ourselves or others might consider joining the Unitarian Jihad, > as explained by their manifesto, reprinted in the April 8, 2005, _San > Francisco Chronicle_ : > > "Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States. We are > Unitarian Jihad. There is only God, unless there is more than one God. The > vote of our God subcommittee is 10-8 in favor of one God, with two > abstentions. Brother Flaming Sword of Moderation noted the possibility of > there being no God at all, and his objection was noted with love by the > secretary. > > "Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States! Too long has > your attention been waylaid by the bright baubles of extremist thought. > Too long have fundamentalist yahoos of all religions (except Buddhism -- > 14-5 vote, no abstentions, fundamentalism subcommittee) made your head > hurt. Too long have you been buffeted by angry people who think that God > talks to them. You have a right to your moderation! You have the power to > be calm! We will use the IED of truth to explode the SUV of dogmatic > expression! > > "People of the United States, why is everyone yelling at you??? Whatever > happened to ... you know, everything? Why is the news dominated by > nutballs saying that the Ten Commandments have to be tattooed inside the > eyelids of every American, or that Allah has told them to kill Americans > in order to rid the world of Satan, or that Yahweh has instructed them to > go live wherever they feel like, or that Shiva thinks bombing mosques is a > great idea? Sister Immaculate Dagger of Peace notes for the record that we > mean no disrespect to Jews, Muslims, Christians or Hindus. Referred back > to the committee of the whole for further discussion. > > "We are Unitarian Jihad. We are everywhere. We have not been born again, > nor have we sworn a blood oath. We do not think that God cares what we > read, what we eat or whom we sleep with. Brother Neutron Bomb of Serenity > notes for the record that he does not have a moral code but is > nevertheless a good person, and Unexalted Leader Garrote of Forgiveness > stipulates that Brother Neutron Bomb of Serenity is a good person, and > this is to be reflected in the minutes. > > "Beware! Unless you people shut up and begin acting like grown-ups with > brains enough to understand the difference between political belief and > personal faith, the Unitarian Jihad will begin a series of terrorist-like > actions. We will take over television studios, kidnap so-called > commentators and broadcast calm, well-reasoned discussions of the issues > of the day. We will not try for "balance" by hiring fruitcakes; we will > try for balance by hiring non-ideologues who have carefully thought > through the issues. > > "We are Unitarian Jihad. We will appear in public places and require > people to shake hands with each other. (Sister Hand Grenade of Love > suggested that we institute a terror regime of mandatory hugging, but her > motion was not formally introduced because of lack of a quorum.) We will > require all lobbyists, spokesmen and campaign managers to dress like trout > in public. Televangelists will be forced to take jobs as Xerox repair > specialists. Demagogues of all stripes will be required to read Proust out > loud in prisons. > > "We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: "Sincerity is not enough." We > have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. Just > because you believe it's true doesn't make it true. Just because your > motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm. Get a dog, or > comfort someone in a nursing home, or just feed the birds in the park. > Play basketball. Lighten up. The world is not out to get you, except in > the sense that the world is out to get everyone. > > "Brother Gatling Gun of Patience notes that he's pretty sure the world is > out to get him because everyone laughs when he says he is a Unitarian. > There were murmurs of assent around the room, and someone suggested that > we buy some Congress members and really stick it to the Baptists. But this > was deemed against Revolutionary Principles, and Brother Gatling Gun of > Patience was remanded to the Sunday Flowers and Banners committee. > > "People of the United States! We are Unitarian Jihad! We can strike > without warning. Pockets of reasonableness and harmony will appear as if > from nowhere! Nice people will run the government again! There will be > coffee and cookies in the Gandhi Room after the revolution." > > Richard W. Wilsnack > Conquering Lion of Cosmic Uncertainty > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 11 15:23:54 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:23:54 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Be=20nice,=20or=20else,=20Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20Pr?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ofessor=20Himmelfarb=A0?= Message-ID: <1e0.3e1a73b5.2fdc944a@aol.com> Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb? I can't say I read every post under this subject head, but a few people seem to have stepped beyond the bounds of civil discourse. This is general cease & desist order to those who have. You know who you are. You won't be warned again. Sincerely, The God In The Box Jim Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 11 15:40:29 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:40:29 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Be_nice=2C_or_else=2C_Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Professor_H?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?immelfarb=A0?= References: <1e0.3e1a73b5.2fdc944a@aol.com> Message-ID: <002b01c56ebd$6cc2b0a0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> It's legal to call oneself bad names, isn't it? Or is it? Anyway, I'll stop. I've been weeping gushers since seeing what I last called myself. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 11 15:41:51 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:41:51 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Be_nice=2C_or_else=2C_Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Professor_H?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?immelfarb=A0?= References: <1e0.3e1a73b5.2fdc944a@aol.com> Message-ID: <016301c56ebd$9e286950$d28f9a51@Robin> With all respect to Jim, it's not so much the violation of civil discourse that bothers me so much (though I can't say I'm much impressed with the contravention of the list verbal dress code which has suddenly erupted) as the terminally boring aspect of the thread as it has developed. (The intial question was a perfectly valid request for information, but then ...) I was about to say, "Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected." But as I'm about to go incommunicado for a couple of weeks and so wouldn't be able to respond to the wrath of god that would no doubt descend on my head, better I don't say it. Robin Hamilton ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Be nice, or else, Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb I can't say I read every post under this subject head, but a few people seem to have stepped beyond the bounds of civil discourse. This is general cease & desist order to those who have. You know who you are. You won't be warned again. Sincerely, The God In The Box Jim Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jun 11 16:12:59 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:12:59 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Be_nice=2C_or_else=2C_Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Professor_H?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?immelfarb=A0?= References: <1e0.3e1a73b5.2fdc944a@aol.com> <016301c56ebd$9e286950$d28f9a51@Robin> Message-ID: <00d801c56ec1$f957c6f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Robin - boring goes up and down, though. We have boring stretches, then a good thread comes up. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Be nice, or else, Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb With all respect to Jim, it's not so much the violation of civil discourse that bothers me so much (though I can't say I'm much impressed with the contravention of the list verbal dress code which has suddenly erupted) as the terminally boring aspect of the thread as it has developed. (The intial question was a perfectly valid request for information, but then ...) I was about to say, "Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected." But as I'm about to go incommunicado for a couple of weeks and so wouldn't be able to respond to the wrath of god that would no doubt descend on my head, better I don't say it. Robin Hamilton ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Be nice, or else, Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Himmelfarb I can't say I read every post under this subject head, but a few people seem to have stepped beyond the bounds of civil discourse. This is general cease & desist order to those who have. You know who you are. You won't be warned again. Sincerely, The God In The Box Jim Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 11 16:20:28 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:20:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?WS_Graham_=A0?= Message-ID: <1c6.2a6879cc.2fdca18c@aol.com> In a message dated 6/11/2005 3:42:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he > didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it > really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you > already have the Faber Collected." Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jun 11 16:42:50 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:42:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WS Graham =?iso-8859-1?q?=A0?= In-Reply-To: <1c6.2a6879cc.2fdca18c@aol.com> Message-ID: There's little that is more boring, I think, than meta-discussion on lists, but even so I'd like to give three cheers to our stalwart list owner for putting down his foot. Name-calling and chest-beating displays are even more boring than meta-talk. On WS Graham, I'm no expert, but what Jim F. says makes a lot of sense to me. I often wish WS Graham had Stevens's friskiness along with the philosophical bent and the obsessive self-reflexiveness. But WSG often wins me over despite my reservations about this *kind* of poetry, interestingly enough. I own the Faber collected poems from 1979, myself, so it's useful to know that the new collected might not be worth the money. He's never been that easy to find in the U.S.--you no longer see even the Ecco selected edition in the stores, I find. I've posted this one before--to my mind one of his best lyrics. A Note to the Difficult One This morning I am ready if you are, To hear you speaking in your new language. I think I am beginning to have nearly A way of writing down what it is I think You say. You enunciate very clearly Terrible words always just beyond me. I stand in my vocabulary looking out Through my window of fine water ready To translate natural occurrences Into something beyond any idea Of pleasure. The wisps of April fly With light messages to the lonely. This morning I am ready if you are To speak. The early quick rains Of Spring are drenching the window-glass. Here in my words looking out I see your face speaking flying In a cloud wanting to say something. --W. S. Graham, IMPLEMENTS IN THEIR PLACES (1977) on 6/11/05 3:20 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/11/2005 3:42:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected." Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 11 16:55:00 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:55:00 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_WS_Graham_=A0?= References: <1c6.2a6879cc.2fdca18c@aol.com> Message-ID: <01b901c56ec7$d6289be0$d28f9a51@Robin> Jim: Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected. Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? The quick answer would be "Yes" and the long answer two-fold. I came [*very* late] on Graham via +Implements In Their Places+ and only [so far] have got as far back as MML. Also, I have a distaste for the UK Apocalypse movement and everything connected with it. Whatever, I think there's a radical break between "The Nightfishing" and MML. But I'd be happy to be convinced to have another look. I did buy the Collected the minute it came out (hardback -- it's in paper now) even though I already had the Faber Collected, so I suppose I shouldn't grumble here. And certainly for anyone *without* the earlier Faber, Matthew Francis' edition is the only game in town. (I think he's currently working on a critical biography of Graham ... Actually, it's out, or something like it: http://www.aber.ac.uk/english/staffinfo/mwf.html What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I'd concur with that -- as a characterisation of MML+ at least. Anyway, must go pack -- I look forward to returning and seeing what everyone has said about this. Robin I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 11 17:12:17 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:12:17 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_WS_Graham_=A0?= References: Message-ID: <01cb01c56eca$407b78d0$d28f9a51@Robin> WS Graham ?From: David Graham << On WS Graham, I'm no expert, but what Jim F. says makes a lot of sense to me. I often wish WS Graham had Stevens's friskiness along with the philosophical bent and the obsessive self-reflexiveness. But WSG often wins me over despite my reservations about this *kind* of poetry, interestingly enough. >> Right on. (Mostly. Partly.) ... on second thoughts, I think W.S.Graham was heading in a different direction from Stevens. Same weird gap though, like between +Harmonium+ and post-Harmonium in WS. << I own the Faber collected poems from 1979, myself, so it's useful to know that the new collected might not be worth the money. He's never been that easy to find in the U.S.--you no longer see even the Ecco selected edition in the stores, I find. >> I suppose I was being a little [deliberately] provocative in my original post, and by a species of lunacy, I've misplaced the Faber. [I dug it out intending to pass it on to a Good Home, now I have the MF edition, but ... So at the moment I can't even run a title-comparison.] My sense is that all the published-but-not-posthumous texts -- especially MML and IITP -- are printed in full in the Faber. So it depends how deep you want to go into Graham. Certainly there's a lot of value-added in MF's edition not in the Faber -- extra poems, notes, intro, you name it. For me it was a no-brainer to get it the moment it was available, but for someone on the US of A with the 79 Faber already? Dunno, honest. On the other hand, anyone who *doesn't* have the Faber 79 ought to -- another no-brainer -- get MF's edition instanter, especially now it's out in paper. (Penguin here.) Robin. *** >From David Graham: I've posted this one before--to my mind one of his best lyrics. A Note to the Difficult One This morning I am ready if you are, To hear you speaking in your new language. I think I am beginning to have nearly A way of writing down what it is I think You say. You enunciate very clearly Terrible words always just beyond me. I stand in my vocabulary looking out Through my window of fine water ready To translate natural occurrences Into something beyond any idea Of pleasure. The wisps of April fly With light messages to the lonely. This morning I am ready if you are To speak. The early quick rains Of Spring are drenching the window-glass. Here in my words looking out I see your face speaking flying In a cloud wanting to say something. --W. S. Graham, IMPLEMENTS IN THEIR PLACES (1977) on 6/11/05 3:20 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/11/2005 3:42:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected." Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Jun 11 21:14:18 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:14:18 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_WS_Graham_=A0?= In-Reply-To: <01b901c56ec7$d6289be0$d28f9a51@Robin> Message-ID: Robin, isn't it a bit unfair to load WS into the Apocalypse bunch? That was such a transient thing anyway, and so much less important than whatever significance it ought to have been accorded. The noise Apocalypse made in its initial declaration seems to me much more a matter of hype & PR as it is presently understood than it was about poetry as it was then understood. >From what MacCaig says about them, it seems that in poetics they represented an advance over Houseman, but not over anything that might have happened in the interim (such as Modernism). P _____ From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Robin Hamilton Sent: 11 June 2005 21:55 To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Cc: mwf at aber.ac.uk Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] WS Graham Jim: Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected. Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? The quick answer would be "Yes" and the long answer two-fold. I came [*very* late] on Graham via +Implements In Their Places+ and only [so far] have got as far back as MML. Also, I have a distaste for the UK Apocalypse movement and everything connected with it. Whatever, I think there's a radical break between "The Nightfishing" and MML. But I'd be happy to be convinced to have another look. I did buy the Collected the minute it came out (hardback -- it's in paper now) even though I already had the Faber Collected, so I suppose I shouldn't grumble here. And certainly for anyone *without* the earlier Faber, Matthew Francis' edition is the only game in town. (I think he's currently working on a critical biography of Graham ... Actually, it's out, or something like it: http://www.aber.ac.uk/english/staffinfo/mwf.html What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I'd concur with that -- as a characterisation of MML+ at least. Anyway, must go pack -- I look forward to returning and seeing what everyone has said about this. Robin I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan _____ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Jun 11 21:17:11 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:17:11 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_WS_Graham_=A0?= In-Reply-To: <1c6.2a6879cc.2fdca18c@aol.com> Message-ID: Since Robin says he's offline for a couple of weeks, I presume to answer 'no'. At any rate, Robin CAN'T POSSIBLY mean to exclude the Night Fishing ;) P _____ From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com Sent: 11 June 2005 21:20 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] WS Graham In a message dated 6/11/2005 3:42:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected." Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Jun 11 21:25:09 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:25:09 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_WS_Graham_=A0?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I should perhaps add that from what Norman MacCaig said, more or less in apology about having been associated in his early days with New Apocalypse, that there was good reason for not wishing to be associated with this particular 'movement'. (At risk of boring folk about my former employer, see Norman's piece reproduced in Chapman 100). In part, because what the movement represented was quite conservative, but also because really the only thing that constituted this group of poets as a movement was the whim of the editor who collected them in the volume of that title. Otherwise they had little or nothing in common. P _____ From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Cudmore Sent: 12 June 2005 02:14 To: 'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views' Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] WS Graham Robin, isn't it a bit unfair to load WS into the Apocalypse bunch? That was such a transient thing anyway, and so much less important than whatever significance it ought to have been accorded. The noise Apocalypse made in its initial declaration seems to me much more a matter of hype & PR as it is presently understood than it was about poetry as it was then understood. >From what MacCaig says about them, it seems that in poetics they represented an advance over Houseman, but not over anything that might have happened in the interim (such as Modernism). P _____ From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Robin Hamilton Sent: 11 June 2005 21:55 To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Cc: mwf at aber.ac.uk Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] WS Graham Jim: Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected. Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? The quick answer would be "Yes" and the long answer two-fold. I came [*very* late] on Graham via +Implements In Their Places+ and only [so far] have got as far back as MML. Also, I have a distaste for the UK Apocalypse movement and everything connected with it. Whatever, I think there's a radical break between "The Nightfishing" and MML. But I'd be happy to be convinced to have another look. I did buy the Collected the minute it came out (hardback -- it's in paper now) even though I already had the Faber Collected, so I suppose I shouldn't grumble here. And certainly for anyone *without* the earlier Faber, Matthew Francis' edition is the only game in town. (I think he's currently working on a critical biography of Graham ... Actually, it's out, or something like it: http://www.aber.ac.uk/english/staffinfo/mwf.html What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I'd concur with that -- as a characterisation of MML+ at least. Anyway, must go pack -- I look forward to returning and seeing what everyone has said about this. Robin I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan _____ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 11 21:28:57 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:28:57 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_WS_Graham_=A0?= References: Message-ID: <030d01c56eee$1c1c3690$d28f9a51@Robin> << Robin, isn't it a bit unfair to load WS into the Apocalypse bunch? >> Nope, Peter, they were all the Childer of Dylan Thomas, which says it for all of me. And pre-MMM *was* Apocalypse. Nah? << That was such a transient thing anyway, and so much less important than whatever significance it ought to have been accorded. >> Insofar as I can disentangle your syntax here, I think I agree. << The noise Apocalypse made in its initial declaration seems to me much more a matter of hype & PR as it is presently understood than it was about poetry as it was then understood. From what MacCaig says about them, >> Well, he would, wouldn't he? Except, unlike Graham, he carefully excised the poetry he wrote in his early Apocalypse phase from the record. Goodbye Dylan Thomas, hello Wallace Stevens. Hm, maybe Graham walked the same walk, but simply didn't cover his tracks as well? << it seems that in poetics they represented an advance over Houseman, >> "There is much to be said in favour of Houseman." << but not over anything that might have happened in the interim (such as Modernism). >> For a moment, I thought you said Movement. But that's later. And worser. Robin From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Robin Hamilton Sent: 11 June 2005 21:55 To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Cc: mwf at aber.ac.uk Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] WS Graham Jim: Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected. Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? The quick answer would be "Yes" and the long answer two-fold. I came [*very* late] on Graham via +Implements In Their Places+ and only [so far] have got as far back as MML. Also, I have a distaste for the UK Apocalypse movement and everything connected with it. Whatever, I think there's a radical break between "The Nightfishing" and MML. But I'd be happy to be convinced to have another look. I did buy the Collected the minute it came out (hardback -- it's in paper now) even though I already had the Faber Collected, so I suppose I shouldn't grumble here. And certainly for anyone *without* the earlier Faber, Matthew Francis' edition is the only game in town. (I think he's currently working on a critical biography of Graham ... Actually, it's out, or something like it: http://www.aber.ac.uk/english/staffinfo/mwf.html What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I'd concur with that -- as a characterisation of MML+ at least. Anyway, must go pack -- I look forward to returning and seeing what everyone has said about this. Robin I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 11 21:45:51 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:45:51 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_WS_Graham_=A0?= References: Message-ID: <033801c56ef0$7889cb70$d28f9a51@Robin> Since Robin says he's offline for a couple of weeks, I presume to answer 'no'. Robin has an absolutely stunning attack of pre-travel insomnia at the moment, and has virtually decided to give-up on the possiblity of sleeping before the taxi arrives in as it will be now five hours. At any rate, Robin CAN'T POSSIBLY mean to exclude the Night Fishing I deed, I DEED, Peter -- I meant it. I may be wrong, but I meant it nevertheless. The Stone Dormouse. ;) P ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com Sent: 11 June 2005 21:20 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] WS Graham In a message dated 6/11/2005 3:42:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected." Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 11 22:06:13 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:06:13 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_WS_Graham_=A0?= References: Message-ID: <035a01c56ef3$503efa20$d28f9a51@Robin> I should perhaps add that from what Norman MacCaig said, more or less in apology about having been associated in his early days with New Apocalypse, that there was good reason for not wishing to be associated with this particular 'movement'. (At risk of boring folk about my former employer, see Norman's piece reproduced in Chapman 100). Oo, Peter, wash yo mouf out with carbolic -- it was a double issue, Chapman 100-101 (2002), with the MacCaig piece on pp. 229 ff (reprinted from 16/1976). So given where it occurs in the issue, it would have been 101. I won't make the obvious remark about: What do they teach children about citation these days? -- but I'm thinking it. Am I *ever* thinking it. Robin (Who is rapidly approaching the point where he is extremely doubtful that Chapman 82 ever existed. I've found 78-79 and 83, so I should have 82 *somewhere*. A Frustrated Bibliophile.) In part, because what the movement represented was quite conservative, but also because really the only thing that constituted this group of poets as a movement was the whim of the editor who collected them in the volume of that title. Otherwise they had little or nothing in common. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Jun 11 22:20:36 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:20:36 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_WS_Graham_=A0?= In-Reply-To: <033801c56ef0$7889cb70$d28f9a51@Robin> Message-ID: Go read it again. Don't know what else one can say -- maybe it'll cure yr insomnia me old mate. But for me, the Night Fishing is one of the masterworks of the c20th. P _____ From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Robin Hamilton Sent: 12 June 2005 02:46 To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] WS Graham Since Robin says he's offline for a couple of weeks, I presume to answer 'no'. Robin has an absolutely stunning attack of pre-travel insomnia at the moment, and has virtually decided to give-up on the possiblity of sleeping before the taxi arrives in as it will be now five hours. At any rate, Robin CAN'T POSSIBLY mean to exclude the Night Fishing I deed, I DEED, Peter -- I meant it. I may be wrong, but I meant it nevertheless. The Stone Dormouse. ;) P _____ From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com Sent: 11 June 2005 21:20 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] WS Graham In a message dated 6/11/2005 3:42:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected." Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan _____ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jun 11 22:29:54 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:29:54 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_WS_Graham_=A0?= References: Message-ID: <038601c56ef6$9f69fa20$d28f9a51@Robin> Go read it again. Don't know what else one can say -- maybe it'll cure yr insomnia me old mate. But for me, the Night Fishing is one of the masterworks of the c20th. Actually, I'm glumly prepared to admit that you're probably right here, Peter, and this is one of my blind-spots. I don't think my brain is quite up to trying again at this particular point in time of the night [or morning], but I might have a shufty at what MacCaig says in 100-101 about the NA. (How much would Joy stiff me for if I bought another copy of 82? I'm beginning to think I may be reduced to this. That, or going through every bookshelf, box and nook-n-cranny in the house with no guarantee of final success.) The Insomniac Dormouse Thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Robin Hamilton Sent: 12 June 2005 02:46 To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] WS Graham Since Robin says he's offline for a couple of weeks, I presume to answer 'no'. Robin has an absolutely stunning attack of pre-travel insomnia at the moment, and has virtually decided to give-up on the possiblity of sleeping before the taxi arrives in as it will be now five hours. At any rate, Robin CAN'T POSSIBLY mean to exclude the Night Fishing I deed, I DEED, Peter -- I meant it. I may be wrong, but I meant it nevertheless. The Stone Dormouse. ;) P ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com Sent: 11 June 2005 21:20 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] WS Graham In a message dated 6/11/2005 3:42:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: Why can't we talk abut something interesting, like W.S.Graham? Even if he didn't write anything remotely decent before +Malcolm Mooney's Land+, and it really *isn't* worth buying Matthew Francis's new annotated edition if you already have the Faber Collected." Robin, I own only the Ecco Press Selected...So you dismiss the longish poem "The Nightfishing"? What appeals to me in Graham is the slow way he lets poems unfold. But after reading him a while I would like to see a bit more variety in his approach. He never really punches up the language, diction. He has a philosophical bent which I appreciate. He has written a good number of poems about language itself. I've always liked this pun (which is odd for me in that I like puns in conversation far better than in poems) in a section from "Implements In Their Places"-- -5- When I was a buoy it seemed Craft of rare tonnage Moored to me. Now Occasionally a skiff Is tied to me and tugs At the end of its tether. -- Finnegan -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Sat Jun 11 23:28:04 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:28:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Written exactly a decade ago Message-ID: <1118546884.8026.165.camel@malatesta> Weird, I happened to look at the date on this a couple of days ago. First pubbed in ELF: Eclectic Literary Forum in early 1996. Mountain Summer The woman and child in bathing suits Trudge, plough, step high over dunes, Crunch ice for footing, in measured stride. Turning about, they leap on the saucer and fly Down merrily pitted slopes into raptures, Finding their break against banking snow… Mountain winter defies the order, Denies the bonding of elements. The wooded snow and the falling wind Force the repentance of birdsong. Unbroken sun razes gooseflesh, Floods snow, and drowns the senses, Pitched in broken bottle rainbow battle With trenchant ice-cold mountain streams. Turning about, they fly to the patronage Of local rebel ethers. Settling into the mountain's lap They bask in untimely solstice. Measuring with our watches, We ignore the whimsy of Mother Earth. Shattering sense to our goggling eyes, She reminds us of her stubborn clout. -- Uche 11 June 1995, Yosemite National Park From kpaul at mallasch.com Sun Jun 12 00:14:03 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:14:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] 16-bit Intel 8088 chip (by Chinaski) In-Reply-To: <00e701c5699c$0c71dad0$fb2bb750@ANNY> References: <00e701c5699c$0c71dad0$fb2bb750@ANNY> Message-ID: <20050611231320.Y7292@kpaul.spinweb.net> "16-bit Intel 8088 chip" with an Apple Macintosh you can't run Radio Shack programs in its disc drive. nor can a Commodore 64 drive read a file you have created on an IBM Personal Computer. both Kaypro and Osborne computers use the CP/M operating system but can't read each other's handwriting for they format (write on) discs in different ways. the Tandy 2000 runs MS-DOS but can't use most programs produced for the IBM Personal Computer unless certain bits and bytes are altered but the wind still blows over Savannah and in the Spring the turkey buzzard struts and flounces before his hens. By Charles Bukowski From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Jun 12 00:22:41 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:22:41 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 16-bit Intel 8088 chip (by Chinaski) References: <00e701c5699c$0c71dad0$fb2bb750@ANNY> <20050611231320.Y7292@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <044101c56f06$602bd760$d28f9a51@Robin> From: "kpaul mallasch" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 5:14 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] 16-bit Intel 8088 chip (by Chinaski) > "16-bit Intel 8088 chip" > > with an Apple Macintosh > you can't run Radio Shack programs > in its disc drive. > nor can a Commodore 64 > drive read a file > you have created on an > IBM Personal Computer. ... on the other hand, an Atari ST could. And as for the rest, there are always emulation programs. But I'm sure Uche will have something more pertinent than me to say on this. The Insomniac > both Kaypro and Osborne computers use > the CP/M operating system > but can't read each other's > handwriting > for they format (write > on) discs in different > ways. > the Tandy 2000 runs MS-DOS but What the hell is a Tandy 2000? Another name for the Trash80? Help, Uche!!! > can't use most programs produced for > the IBM Personal Computer > unless certain > bits and bytes are > altered > but the wind still blows over > Savannah > and in the Spring > the turkey buzzard struts and > flounces before his > hens. > > By Charles Bukowski From kpaul at mallasch.com Sun Jun 12 01:27:28 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:27:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] 16-bit Intel 8088 chip (by Chinaski) In-Reply-To: <044101c56f06$602bd760$d28f9a51@Robin> References: <00e701c5699c$0c71dad0$fb2bb750@ANNY> <20050611231320.Y7292@kpaul.spinweb.net> <044101c56f06$602bd760$d28f9a51@Robin> Message-ID: <20050612002522.L20746@kpaul.spinweb.net> but can't you just see him warily looking at the com-pu-tah instead of the usual type-writer. ;) i never liked his raw stuff where he tried to act 'tough'... it was the observant manner in which some moments and ideas were 'coaxed to the page'... also a small smile from picturing someone trying to explain IM or IRC or something to him. ;) -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Sun, 12 Jun 2005, Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "kpaul mallasch" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 5:14 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] 16-bit Intel 8088 chip (by Chinaski) > > >> "16-bit Intel 8088 chip" >> >> with an Apple Macintosh >> you can't run Radio Shack programs >> in its disc drive. >> nor can a Commodore 64 >> drive read a file >> you have created on an >> IBM Personal Computer. > > ... on the other hand, an Atari ST could. > > And as for the rest, there are always emulation programs. > > But I'm sure Uche will have something more pertinent than me to say on this. > > > > The Insomniac > >> both Kaypro and Osborne computers use >> the CP/M operating system >> but can't read each other's >> handwriting >> for they format (write >> on) discs in different >> ways. >> the Tandy 2000 runs MS-DOS but > > What the hell is a Tandy 2000? Another name for the Trash80? > > Help, Uche!!! > >> can't use most programs produced for >> the IBM Personal Computer >> unless certain >> bits and bytes are >> altered >> but the wind still blows over >> Savannah >> and in the Spring >> the turkey buzzard struts and >> flounces before his >> hens. >> >> By Charles Bukowski > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 12 13:48:35 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:48:35 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] With Open Arms by Nick Piombino Message-ID: <009d01c56f76$f5002a60$97ab3252@ANNY> I have been listening for a while to Nick Piombino reading. I think that one of his best poems is the last one, and I would like to send you here to listen to : With Open Arms http://mediamogul.seas.upenn.edu/pennsound/authors/Piombino/wkcr/Piombino-Nick_With-Open-Arms_wkcr_2002.mp3 Or if you have plenty of time as I had today, here they all are: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Piombino.html Take care, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Jun 12 15:02:38 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:02:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Roethke's rep Message-ID: In today's "Poet's Choice" column Robert Pinsky meditates a little on why Roethke's work might be a bit unfashionable these days. ____________________ What is a "chestnut"? An old joke. Or in the arts, a familiar standby, an anthology piece. Sometimes the chestnut is nevertheless a great work of art, and to create one in poetry is no small thing. Theodore Roethke (1908-1963) made at least two poems that people often quote and allude to and recite. The wholehearted romanticism Edward Hirsch describes in his introduction to the new Theodore Roethke: Selected Poems makes Roethke an unfashionable and therefore challenging figure in a period when young poets can study all sorts of sly bet-hedging. Maybe every period has its fashionable shortcuts to sophistication: a kind of easy irony or an ambiguous commitment to one's words or a postmodern muttering -- all provide a kind of exit strategy. In contrast, Roethke's "The Waking" and "My Papa's Waltz" have conviction: a full-throated quality that carries them beyond mere styles and periods. --Robert Pinsky. "Poet's Choice." *Washington Post* Sunday, June 12, 2005; BW12 ____________________ ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From tad at opus40.org Sun Jun 12 15:09:05 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:09:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Roethke's rep References: Message-ID: <001601c56f82$38cbd040$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I would have thought Jane, My Student. But the big one is "My Papa's Waltz" -- become a chestnut by virtue of wide misreading which makes it seem a lesser poem than it is. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 3:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Roethke's rep > In today's "Poet's Choice" column Robert Pinsky meditates a little on why > Roethke's work might be a bit unfashionable these days. > > ____________________ > What is a "chestnut"? An old joke. Or in the arts, a familiar standby, an > anthology piece. Sometimes the chestnut is nevertheless a great work of > art, > and to create one in poetry is no small thing. Theodore Roethke > (1908-1963) > made at least two poems that people often quote and allude to and recite. > The wholehearted romanticism Edward Hirsch describes in his introduction > to > the new Theodore Roethke: Selected Poems makes Roethke an unfashionable > and > therefore challenging figure in a period when young poets can study all > sorts of sly bet-hedging. Maybe every period has its fashionable shortcuts > to sophistication: a kind of easy irony or an ambiguous commitment to > one's > words or a postmodern muttering -- all provide a kind of exit strategy. > > In contrast, Roethke's "The Waking" and "My Papa's Waltz" have conviction: > a > full-throated quality that carries them beyond mere styles and periods. > > --Robert Pinsky. "Poet's Choice." *Washington Post* Sunday, June 12, > 2005; > BW12 > ____________________ > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 12 15:35:58 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:35:58 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Roethke's rep References: <001601c56f82$38cbd040$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00e501c56f85$f5d4baa0$97ab3252@ANNY> My Papa's Waltz The whiskey on your breath Could make a small boy dizzy; But I hung on like death: Such waltzing was not easy. We romped until the pans Slid from the kitchen shelf; My mother's countenance Could not unfrown itself. The hand that held my wrist Was battered on one knuckle; At every step you missed My right ear scraped a buckle. You beat time on my head With a palm caked hard by dirt, Then waltzed me off to bed Still clinging to your shirt. More at: http://gawow.com/roethke/poems/43.html From: "The Old Mole" Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:09 PM >I would have thought Jane, My Student. > > But the big one is "My Papa's Waltz" -- become a chestnut by virtue of wide > misreading which makes it seem a lesser poem than it is. > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 3:02 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Roethke's rep > > >> In today's "Poet's Choice" column Robert Pinsky meditates a little on why >> Roethke's work might be a bit unfashionable these days. >> >> ____________________ >> What is a "chestnut"? An old joke. Or in the arts, a familiar standby, an >> anthology piece. Sometimes the chestnut is nevertheless a great work of >> art, >> and to create one in poetry is no small thing. Theodore Roethke >> (1908-1963) >> made at least two poems that people often quote and allude to and recite. >> The wholehearted romanticism Edward Hirsch describes in his introduction >> to >> the new Theodore Roethke: Selected Poems makes Roethke an unfashionable >> and >> therefore challenging figure in a period when young poets can study all >> sorts of sly bet-hedging. Maybe every period has its fashionable shortcuts >> to sophistication: a kind of easy irony or an ambiguous commitment to >> one's >> words or a postmodern muttering -- all provide a kind of exit strategy. >> >> In contrast, Roethke's "The Waking" and "My Papa's Waltz" have conviction: >> a >> full-throated quality that carries them beyond mere styles and periods. >> >> --Robert Pinsky. "Poet's Choice." *Washington Post* Sunday, June 12, >> 2005; >> BW12 >> ____________________ >> >> ==================================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> Poetry Library: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sun Jun 12 16:19:32 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:19:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Roethke's rep Message-ID: <12d.5e4e7b80.2fddf2d4@aol.com> My favorite Roethke will always be "North American Sequence." In a message dated 6/12/2005 3:36:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: My Papa's Waltz The whiskey on your breath Could make a small boy dizzy; But I hung on like death: Such waltzing was not easy. We romped until the pans Slid from the kitchen shelf; My mother's countenance Could not unfrown itself. The hand that held my wrist Was battered on one knuckle; At every step you missed My right ear scraped a buckle. You beat time on my head With a palm caked hard by dirt, Then waltzed me off to bed Still clinging to your shirt. More at: _http://gawow.com/roethke/poems/43.html_ (http://gawow.com/roethke/poems/43.html) From: "The Old Mole" <_tad at opus40.org_ (mailto:tad at opus40.org) > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:09 PM >I would have thought Jane, My Student. > > But the big one is "My Papa's Waltz" -- become a chestnut by virtue of wide > misreading which makes it seem a lesser poem than it is. > > Tad Richards > _www.opus40.org_ (http://www.opus40.org/) > _http://opusforty.blogspot.com/_ (http://opusforty.blogspot.com/) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" <_grahamd at ripon.edu_ (mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu) > > To: <_new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu_ (mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) > > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 3:02 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Roethke's rep > > >> In today's "Poet's Choice" column Robert Pinsky meditates a little on why >> Roethke's work might be a bit unfashionable these days. >> >> ____________________ >> What is a "chestnut"? An old joke. Or in the arts, a familiar standby, an >> anthology piece. Sometimes the chestnut is nevertheless a great work of >> art, >> and to create one in poetry is no small thing. Theodore Roethke >> (1908-1963) >> made at least two poems that people often quote and allude to and recite. >> The wholehearted romanticism Edward Hirsch describes in his introduction >> to >> the new Theodore Roethke: Selected Poems makes Roethke an unfashionable >> and >> therefore challenging figure in a period when young poets can study all >> sorts of sly bet-hedging. Maybe every period has its fashionable shortcuts >> to sophistication: a kind of easy irony or an ambiguous commitment to >> one's >> words or a postmodern muttering -- all provide a kind of exit strategy. >> >> In contrast, Roethke's "The Waking" and "My Papa's Waltz" have conviction: >> a >> full-throated quality that carries them beyond mere styles and periods. >> >> --Robert Pinsky. "Poet's Choice." *Washington Post* Sunday, June 12, >> 2005; >> BW12 >> ____________________ >> >> ==================================================== >> David Graham >> _grahamd at ripon.edu_ (mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu) >> Home Page: >> _http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html_ (http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html) >> Poetry Library: >> _http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html_ (http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html) >> ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 12 18:38:53 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:38:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] How do you spell debt relief?---SAL In-Reply-To: <00e501c56f85$f5d4baa0$97ab3252@ANNY> References: <001601c56f82$38cbd040$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <00e501c56f85$f5d4baa0$97ab3252@ANNY> Message-ID: <42ACB97D.6070409@ix.netcom.com> "Beware Of 'Whitey'" Bearing Gifts: Debt Cut Means Foreclosure for Poorest Nations; Re-Establishment of Colonialism, Slavery: Deal Would Cancel $40 Billion in Loans In Return For Draconian Collateral Written Into IMF Agreements To Be Paid Upon Default; Privatization And Western Purchase Of De-Nationalized Mines, Utilities, Water Rights; No Unions & Low Wages; No Healthcare; No Education; Land Forfeiture; No Commies Or Socialists Need Get Elected Here; Foreign Goods Push Out Indigenous Ones; IMF Managed Food Programs & Destruction Of Indigenous Crops And Their Seeds, Replaced With Sterile Western Seed Requiring Hard Currency For Annual Purchase; Foreign Presence On National Bank And Currency Boards, Maintenance Of Cronyism With West, Structural Adjustment Loans, Foreign Military Presence, Training Repressive Police Force And Army etc. etc. Ad Nauseam Until After A Few Years The Country And Its People Would Have Been Far Better Off If 'Whitey' Had Colonized Mars Or Been Taken Up In The Rapture Like He Fuckin' Promised Us He Would: Western Contractors Lined Up To Steal New Round Of Loans: Bono, Geldof: Wanton Debt Dupes Or Shilling For The IMF Thieves? Shouldn't They Stick To Writing And Producing Nursery Rhymes For Adults? "Along With Iraq, This Is Tony Blair's Legacy. We Can Only Ask---Who Brought The Rope!!" By PALL BULLSTAIN Assassinated Press Staff Writer Sunday, June 12, 2005 http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ From vireo.nefer at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 20:21:48 2005 From: vireo.nefer at gmail.com (Vireo Nefer) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:21:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: BMCR 2005.06.08, Peter T. Struck, Birth of the Symbol In-Reply-To: <200506121532.j5CFWKYE023645@ada.brynmawr.edu> References: <200506121532.j5CFWKYE023645@ada.brynmawr.edu> Message-ID: <464e468805061217215073a0f6@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: owner-bmcr-l at brynmawr.edu Date: Jun 12, 2005 11:32 AM Subject: BMCR 2005.06.08, Peter T. Struck, Birth of the Symbol To: Peter T. Struck, Birth of the Symbol: Ancient Readers at the Limits of Their Texts. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2004. Pp. 316. ISBN 0-691-11697-0. $39.50. Reviewed by Bruce Krajewski, Texas Woman's University (bkrajewski at twu.edu) Word count: 1480 words ------------------------------- Peter Struck's superb book about the symbol, perhaps the best since Tzvetan Todorov's 1977 Theories of the Symbol, attends to the question, "What do we expect from poetry?" (1). Following consciously in the footsteps of Robert Lamberton and perhaps unconsciously in the footsteps of Walter Benjamin's "On Language as Such",[[1]] Struck rescues several ancient writers from the dismissive gestures of some philosophers and literary critics, while offering a compelling case for his audience -- classicists, philosophers, and literary critics -- to rethink the dominant Aristotelian paradigm that has reduced the symbol to an inconspicuous place on a taxonomic chart for figuration. The book contains an introduction, seven chapters, an epilogue on "post-Proclean theories," and an appendix on Chrysippus's reading of a mural. The chapters mainly follow a chronological sequence, starting roughly with Homer and finishing in the epilogue with a reference to Martin Heidegger. Struck's "study attempts to retrace the oldest segments" of this history of the symbol (1-2). The early chapters gather the data about the symbol's role in the beginnings of literary criticism, and then show how classical philosophers like Plato and Aristotle expressed various levels of discomfort with symbolic discourse in poetry, despite Plato's own allegiances to esotericism (see his Seventh Letter). Like allegory, the symbol is meaning-full and sometimes seems to present inexhaustible interpretations, including what might be described as hidden messages. This kind of language capable of secrecy presented problems to some philosophers and ancient rhetoricians (e.g., Quintilian), who insisted on the value of clarity and on monological modes of discourse. Call this a preference for a discourse of light over a discourse of darkness. Some see something disreputable in the discourse of darkness, a way of communicating that presents seemingly unnecessary problems to be solved or decoded during reading and that sometimes divides audiences into those who understand the secret discourse and those who are not in on the secret(s). The first chapter on symbols and riddles begins the task of undoing the Aristotelian paradigm mentioned above. "Precisely reversing the scale of poetic virtues put forward by critics in the Aristotelian line, the allegorists claim that unclear language, whose message is by definition obscured, is the chief marker of great poetry" (4). The allegorists were obviously a special variety of readers, not affronted by figurative language that might seem, from another view, a stumbling block to understanding. The allegorists, in opposition to some famous ancient philosophers, were not the ones who foreclosed their capacities for attention. Rather, the allegorists saw the most enigmatic poetry as the most worthy of thought. Struck writes, "I will be suggesting that Aristotle's notions of poetic language, which value clarity above all, are actually part of a decidedly anti-allegorical project that sits at the head of rhetorical criticism" (13). Riddles, puzzles, secrets, odd phrasings, are not so much problems for many ancient readers (e.g. Porphyry) as sources of thought, and that viewpoint is precisely at odds with the Aristotelian tradition. "When Aristotle defines a sort of elevated clarity as the mark of greatness in poetic language and, as we will see, simultaneously redefines the enigma, the centerpiece of allegorical poetics, as a flaw of style, we are right to take notice" (24). In fact, Aristotle's view marks a departure from, say, the Derveni Papyrus, discovered in 1962, and believed to illustrate a different tradition of reading that predates Aristotle and that shows that the enigma leads us to the symbol. The Derveni commentator demonstrates a keen interest in enigmatic, dark language. "In this text [the Derveni Papyrus]," according to Struck, "[the attention to enigmas] is the most prominent marker of an overall stance toward the poetic text as a repository of great (and even sacred) hidden truths, which are conveyed in riddles through the whole poem, in a manner that resembles the semantically dense language of oracular speech, esoteric philosophy, and cultic practice, and so requires an expansive interpretation to unpack the significance of each word" (38). Dark sayings rivet our attention, partly because they tease us toward them by not giving us everything we want all at once. The Derveni Papyrus serves as the crossroad for Struck. From the evidence in the Papyrus, Struck is able to fashion a Wittgensteinian case that binds language to the world. Aristotle's mimetic view of the world rolls out of his theory of language, which valorizes clear, referential discourse, and establishes a place where words and their meanings can find one another without difficulty. Struck points to the value of the difficulties when words and their referents do not make one another's acquaintance so easily. Struck focuses on what Wittgenstein calls the bumps that the understanding has received by running its head up against the limits of language. Let's say the bumps mark an expansiveness that is required when dealing with dark texts. This Wittgensteinian image of the bump on understanding is not alien to Struck's project, for, in a section dealing with the prominent role that interpretation plays in the later history of the symbolic, he investigates some notions connected to the verbal form of the Greek term for symbol. sumba/llein "carries with it a notion of a meeting, as in bumping into someone or something" (90). Apparently, the ancients might not have been uncomfortable with the later Wittgenstein (e.g. the Stoic point that we fabricate concepts for linguistic convenience is repeated in the Philosophical Investigations), but Aristotle's views of language constitute a departure, according to Struck, not only from the Derveni commentator, but also from a number of ancient interpreters. "Aristotle's notion of clear language, sensible as it seems, was actually a radical departure from the intellectual currents of his day" (51). One boon of Struck's book is his capacity for reestablishing the sense that many ancient interpreters did not approach opaque texts as problems to be solved. Struck does not want anyone to miss the point that the "Greeks ... imbue the senseless with the highest order of significance" (201). One would not know that from, say, Aristotle's Poetics, a work far more influential than most of the ones that play prominent roles in Struck's book. Partly, Aristotle succeeded not simply by being systematic but also by sprinkling into his work ominous anecdotes, such as the one he tells about Cratylus. The representational view of language absorbed Aristotle to the point that he offered vivid examples of the consequences of those who might think otherwise. "In book 4 of the Metaphysics, where Aristotle begins his investigation proper, he tells us that Cratylus became so crippled by the observation that our language may not correspond to the world that, at the end of his life, he no longer spoke but only moved his finger" (59). The Derveni commentator would probably want to explore the significance that might accrue from knowing which finger Cratylus moved. Struck's aims in the later chapters are to undo the anti-symbolic and anti-allegorical project (attributable in some measure to Aristotle), and to provide a persuasive case to rethink the symbol in a larger context that includes magic, philosophy, philology, religion, and literary criticism. For instance, we learn that "symbols belong as a matter of definition to the sphere of convention and social agreement" (84). They also played a pertinent role in literary criticism and in religion. The chapters on the Stoics and Neoplatonists merit close attention on that front. Struck's command of the Stoic and Neoplatonic material should convince many readers to broaden their thinking about the symbolic/allegorical beyond the categories of rhetoric or literary criticism, though it is easy to begin exploration with those categories. "The allegorical interpretation of poetic texts occupied an important place in Stoic thought" (111). However, poetry and religion occasionally meld for the Stoics, especially Chrysippus. (By the time of Proclus and Dionysius, poetry becomes theology (271)). "[Chrysippus] tells us that a truly religious person 'retraces' or 'rereads' everything that has to do with the gods and makes what sense he or she can from it" (117). With a clear or plain text, one reading suffices, but this Stoic injunction on the religious reader turns reading into a pious, complicated activity, for "symbolic discourse consistently asks more of its audience than first appears" (165). The injunction emerges from Chrysippus's thinking together the ontological and the linguistic, for Chrysippus thought that "words were ambiguous by nature" (131), that the nature of the gods has something to do with the nature of words. Again, in this example from antiquity, ambiguity is not taken to be a problem or a failure of composition (133). The world is legible, a\ la Hans Blumenberg's not-famous-enough book,[[2]] though reading the world requires special hermeneutical talents on occasion, the kind that Struck possesses, the kind that includes a recognition of both the Orphic powers of language and of language's limits. As the Scottish prayer tells us, language might not deliver us from things that go bump in the night. ------------------ Notes: 1. Walter Benjamin, "On Language as Such and on the Language of Man" in Walter Benjamin: Selected Writings, Vol. 1, 1913-1926, Ed. Marcus Bullock and Michael Jennings (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1996). 2. Hans Blumenberg, Die Lesbarkeit der Welt (Frankfurt: Suhrkamp, 1986). ------------------------------- The BMCR website (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/) contains a complete and searchable archive of BMCR reviews since our first issue in 1990. It also contains information about subscribing and unsubscribing from the service. -- AIM: vireonefer LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=vireoibis VireoNyx Publications: http://www.vireonyxpub.org INK: http://www.inkemetic.org From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Jun 12 22:39:40 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:39:40 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG Message-ID: <200506130117.j5D1H0PA222380@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> HEy, thanks everybody for asking---sorry I was away from email for a week, and just catching up to email now----It was a pleasure to see Kerry O'Keefe there! (and kerry, sorry if my voice sounded shot!--some people say it sounds shot even when I think it's good, but on this particular night it really was!) Chris ---------- From: Donna Casinghino To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG Date: Tue, Jun 7, 2005, 7:17 PM Actually, answered my own question with your help in supplying the band name. >From the Continuous Peasant schedule on their web site: 6.10.2005 Elevens , Northampton Stone Coyotes - 10:30pm 6.11.2005 Abbey Lounge , Cambridge Adam White (The Irreverends) - Adam White goes on at 7PM Continuous Peasant at 8PM 7pm Tad, if you're still interested: Northampton is about a 2-hour drive from here. Cambridge is worse--3+ hours, but with Boston-area traffic it's prolly closer to 4. Which means I can do either show. But in either case, you're prolly going to have to find something more than just pinching to do to me to keep me awake on the Taconic on the way home. Cattle brands sound good. Maybe just steak knives. But either way, it's gonna be a rough trip back. On 6/7/05, Donna Casinghino > wrote: Well shit, somebody better figure it all out, and quick. Cause I'm in the Hudson Valley, and I like to drive, and I'm more than willing to be there. If only I knew where and when it was. On 6/7/05, Kerry O'Keefe > wrote: Mole, they are playing in Noho Friday night, aren't they??? Continuous Peasant at the Elevens, 10 p.m. (two blocks from my venerable old peeling house) be there or be square Quoting The Old Mole < tad at opus40.org >: > Chris Stroffolino, to be specific. If he won't blow his own horn, I will. He' > s playing some gigs on the east coast, including Albany Friday night and > Northampton Saturday. I'm going to try to make the Saturday gig -- but -- > Chris -- I need to know exactly when and where. And you might give the rest > of your itinerary, too. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Jun 12 21:58:35 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:58:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG References: <200506130117.j5D1H0PA222380@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <002a01c56fbb$6d6e7490$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIGChris. Sorry I couldn't make it. We were in deep shit...literally. Septic tank overflowed. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Stroffolino To: Donna Casinghino ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG HEy, thanks everybody for asking---sorry I was away from email for a week, and just catching up to email now----It was a pleasure to see Kerry O'Keefe there! (and kerry, sorry if my voice sounded shot!--some people say it sounds shot even when I think it's good, but on this particular night it really was!) Chris ---------- From: Donna Casinghino To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG Date: Tue, Jun 7, 2005, 7:17 PM Actually, answered my own question with your help in supplying the band name. >From the Continuous Peasant schedule on their web site: 6.10.2005 Elevens , Northampton Stone Coyotes - 10:30pm 6.11.2005 Abbey Lounge , Cambridge Adam White (The Irreverends) - Adam White goes on at 7PM Continuous Peasant at 8PM 7pm Tad, if you're still interested: Northampton is about a 2-hour drive from here. Cambridge is worse--3+ hours, but with Boston-area traffic it's prolly closer to 4. Which means I can do either show. But in either case, you're prolly going to have to find something more than just pinching to do to me to keep me awake on the Taconic on the way home. Cattle brands sound good. Maybe just steak knives. But either way, it's gonna be a rough trip back. On 6/7/05, Donna Casinghino > wrote: Well shit, somebody better figure it all out, and quick. Cause I'm in the Hudson Valley, and I like to drive, and I'm more than willing to be there. If only I knew where and when it was. On 6/7/05, Kerry O'Keefe > wrote: Mole, they are playing in Noho Friday night, aren't they??? Continuous Peasant at the Elevens, 10 p.m. (two blocks from my venerable old peeling house) be there or be square Quoting The Old Mole < tad at opus40.org >: > Chris Stroffolino, to be specific. If he won't blow his own horn, I will. He' > s playing some gigs on the east coast, including Albany Friday night and > Northampton Saturday. I'm going to try to make the Saturday gig -- but -- > Chris -- I need to know exactly when and where. And you might give the rest > of your itinerary, too. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Mon Jun 13 01:13:57 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:13:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG Message-ID: <200506130351.j5D3o3sr104124@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> Ah, deep image poetry! C ---------- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2005, 5:58 PM Chris. Sorry I couldn't make it. We were in deep shit...literally. Septic tank overflowed. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Stroffolino To: Donna Casinghino ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG HEy, thanks everybody for asking---sorry I was away from email for a week, and just catching up to email now----It was a pleasure to see Kerry O'Keefe there! (and kerry, sorry if my voice sounded shot!--some people say it sounds shot even when I think it's good, but on this particular night it really was!) Chris ---------- From: Donna Casinghino > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG Date: Tue, Jun 7, 2005, 7:17 PM Actually, answered my own question with your help in supplying the band name. >From the Continuous Peasant schedule on their web site: 6.10.2005 Elevens , Northampton Stone Coyotes - 10:30pm 6.11.2005 Abbey Lounge , Cambridge Adam White (The Irreverends) - Adam White goes on at 7PM Continuous Peasant at 8PM 7pm Tad, if you're still interested: Northampton is about a 2-hour drive from here. Cambridge is worse--3+ hours, but with Boston-area traffic it's prolly closer to 4. Which means I can do either show. But in either case, you're prolly going to have to find something more than just pinching to do to me to keep me awake on the Taconic on the way home. Cattle brands sound good. Maybe just steak knives. But either way, it's gonna be a rough trip back. On 6/7/05, Donna Casinghino > wrote: Well shit, somebody better figure it all out, and quick. Cause I'm in the Hudson Valley, and I like to drive, and I'm more than willing to be there. If only I knew where and when it was. On 6/7/05, Kerry O'Keefe > wrote: Mole, they are playing in Noho Friday night, aren't they??? Continuous Peasant at the Elevens, 10 p.m. (two blocks from my venerable old peeling house) be there or be square Quoting The Old Mole < tad at opus40.org >: > Chris Stroffolino, to be specific. If he won't blow his own horn, I will. He' > s playing some gigs on the east coast, including Albany Friday night and > Northampton Saturday. I'm going to try to make the Saturday gig -- but -- > Chris -- I need to know exactly when and where. And you might give the rest > of your itinerary, too. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Jun 12 23:58:51 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:58:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Like a Rolling Nobel Laureate Message-ID: <007801c56fcc$38ab0230$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> On 60 Minutes tonight. they mentioned that Bob Dylan had been nominated for the Nobel Prize for Literature. Thoughts? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Jun 12 23:59:14 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:59:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG References: <200506130351.j5D3o3sr104124@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <008501c56fcc$46828ea0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIGWhen the deep image hits the fan. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Stroffolino To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG Ah, deep image poetry! C ---------- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2005, 5:58 PM Chris. Sorry I couldn't make it. We were in deep shit...literally. Septic tank overflowed. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Stroffolino To: Donna Casinghino ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG HEy, thanks everybody for asking---sorry I was away from email for a week, and just catching up to email now----It was a pleasure to see Kerry O'Keefe there! (and kerry, sorry if my voice sounded shot!--some people say it sounds shot even when I think it's good, but on this particular night it really was!) Chris ---------- From: Donna Casinghino > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] STROFFOLINO GIG Date: Tue, Jun 7, 2005, 7:17 PM Actually, answered my own question with your help in supplying the band name. >From the Continuous Peasant schedule on their web site: 6.10.2005 Elevens , Northampton Stone Coyotes - 10:30pm 6.11.2005 Abbey Lounge , Cambridge Adam White (The Irreverends) - Adam White goes on at 7PM Continuous Peasant at 8PM 7pm Tad, if you're still interested: Northampton is about a 2-hour drive from here. Cambridge is worse--3+ hours, but with Boston-area traffic it's prolly closer to 4. Which means I can do either show. But in either case, you're prolly going to have to find something more than just pinching to do to me to keep me awake on the Taconic on the way home. Cattle brands sound good. Maybe just steak knives. But either way, it's gonna be a rough trip back. On 6/7/05, Donna Casinghino > wrote: Well shit, somebody better figure it all out, and quick. Cause I'm in the Hudson Valley, and I like to drive, and I'm more than willing to be there. If only I knew where and when it was. On 6/7/05, Kerry O'Keefe > wrote: Mole, they are playing in Noho Friday night, aren't they??? Continuous Peasant at the Elevens, 10 p.m. (two blocks from my venerable old peeling house) be there or be square Quoting The Old Mole < tad at opus40.org >: > Chris Stroffolino, to be specific. If he won't blow his own horn, I will. He' > s playing some gigs on the east coast, including Albany Friday night and > Northampton Saturday. I'm going to try to make the Saturday gig -- but -- > Chris -- I need to know exactly when and where. And you might give the rest > of your itinerary, too. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake -- ------------------------------------------------- "No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings." --William Blake _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 13 00:18:33 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 00:18:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Like a Rolling Nobel Laureate In-Reply-To: <007801c56fcc$38ab0230$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <007801c56fcc$38ab0230$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <42AD0919.2070603@ix.netcom.com> None required. FIZZ The Old Mole wrote: > On 60 Minutes tonight. they mentioned that Bob Dylan had been > nominated for the Nobel Prize for Literature. Thoughts? > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jun 13 01:45:10 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:45:10 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Eberhart - 1904-2005 Message-ID: <007d01c56fdb$102f8d80$1fab3452@ANNY> Minnesota native, Pulitzer-winning poet Richard Eberhart dies Associated Press Published June 12, 2005 HANOVER, N.H. - Richard Eberhart, a Pulitzer Prize-winning poet admired for mentoring generations of aspiring writers, died at his home Thursday after a short illness. He was 101. Eberhart, a Minnesota native, wrote more than a dozen books of poetry and verse during a career that spanned more than 60 years. He received nearly every major book award a poet can win, including the Pulitzer, which he received in 1966 for his Selected Poems, 1930-1965. In his 1977 acceptance speech for the National Book Award, he said: "Poetry is a natural energy resource of our country. It has no energy crisis, possessing a potential that will last as long as the country. Its power is equal to that of any country in the world.'' Jay Parini, a former colleague who now teaches English at Middlebury College, called Eberhart "one of the finest American poets.'' "He left behind a dozen poems that I think will be part of the permanent treasury of American poetry,'' Parini said. Eberhart was an intensely lyrical poet, Parini said. Unafraid to ask fundamental questions, his poems explore dramatic issues of life and death. "Poems in a way are spells against death,'' Eberhart once told the Concord Monitor. "They are milestones, to see where you were then from where you are now. To perpetuate your feelings, to establish them. If you have in any way touched the central heart of mankind's feelings, you'll survive.'' Eberhart also was admired for encouraging young poets, including many at Dartmouth College, where he taught for nearly 30 years. Even in his ninth decade, Eberhart would call the school's director of creative writing to say he'd discovered some wonderful poet and to urge her to consider bringing that person to Dartmouth. "He had a largess; it extended to himself, too,'' Cleopatra Mathis said. "He was a person who never tired of talking about poetry, never tired of bringing people who wanted to write poetry into the fold.'' Eberhart was born on April 5, 1904, in Austin, Minn. He discovered his love for poetry as a high school student, when an English teacher asked students to write poems for homework. "When most of the students would bring in one poem the next day, I invariably brought in five or ten,'' he said in a 1997 interview in the Connecticut Review. After a year at the University of Minnesota, Eberhart transferred to Dartmouth, where he studied with Robert Frost. He graduated in 1926, went on to earn bachelor's and master's degrees at St. John's College at Cambridge University and published his first book, A Bravery of Earth, in 1930. Upon returning to the United States, he began studying for his doctorate at Harvard University, but a lack of money ended his studies after one year. He spent the Depression teaching English at a private prep school near Boston, where he met his wife, Helen Elizabeth "Betty'' Butcher. They were married for 52 years until her death in 1993. Although he was old enough to avoid mandatory military service during World War II, he chose to enlist and became a Navy gunnery instructor. After the war he spent seven years in management with Butcher Polish Co. in Boston, a company founded by his wife's family. He taught at several universities and colleges, then returned to Dartmouth in 1956 as a professor of English and poet-in-residence. "Coming to Dartmouth, it was as if he landed in heaven,'' his daughter, Gretchen Cherington, said last year. Being hired to raise the stature of poetry at his alma mater was "as much as he could ever have hoped for,'' she said. Although he officially retired in 1970, he continued to teach part-time until the mid-1980s. Eberhart's survivors include his daughter, son and six grandchildren. A memorial service is set for June 19 at 2 p.m. at Rollins Chapel in Hanover, with a reception to follow at the Top of the Hop. ____________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Mon Jun 13 08:39:07 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:39:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] 16-bit Intel 8088 chip (by Chinaski) In-Reply-To: <044101c56f06$602bd760$d28f9a51@Robin> References: <00e701c5699c$0c71dad0$fb2bb750@ANNY> <20050611231320.Y7292@kpaul.spinweb.net> <044101c56f06$602bd760$d28f9a51@Robin> Message-ID: <1118666348.8026.193.camel@malatesta> On Sun, 2005-06-12 at 05:22 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "kpaul mallasch" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 5:14 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] 16-bit Intel 8088 chip (by Chinaski) > > > > "16-bit Intel 8088 chip" > > > > with an Apple Macintosh > > you can't run Radio Shack programs > > in its disc drive. > > nor can a Commodore 64 > > drive read a file > > you have created on an > > IBM Personal Computer. > > ... on the other hand, an Atari ST could. > > And as for the rest, there are always emulation programs. > > But I'm sure Uche will have something more pertinent than me to say on this. It's Bukowski. I have nothing to say. I just roll my eyes ;-). "Computers assail me with compatibility problems, but nature is still her self-same nature, and thus I'm comforted". Better expressed as epigram, yes. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Jun 13 12:33:06 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:33:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Eberhart - 1904-2005 In-Reply-To: <007d01c56fdb$102f8d80$1fab3452@ANNY> Message-ID: I was one of Richard Eberhart's students in the early 1970s. He seemed ancient to me then--little could I have imagined he'd live another 30-plus years. Ancient in body, but not spirit. He was one of the most curious, boyish men I've ever met. Someone once described him as a combination of William Blake and a banker, and that seems about right. A complete romantic, he didn't seem to have an analytical or critical bone in his body, and always struck me as quite surprised at his own best poems. He was doggedly egotistical, so over-the-top at it that it was charming. He'd introduce "The Groundhog" at readings by remarking that this was a poem that future generations would still be reading long after he had died. And perhaps they will, though I've been sad to notice how even his handful of best poems have already begun slipping out of the anthologies. His workshops met weekly at his home. As a teacher he wasn't much given to instruction, but would hold forth, puffing on his pipe in a wingback chair, with many anecdotes about poets and poetry, often reciting classic and contemporary poems that had impressed him. It all seemed rather freely associative. Someone would hand out a poem with a snowy field in it, and he'd launch a story about Robert Bly. Someone else would turn in a villanelle, and he'd read "Do Not Go Gentle" and tell his tales of drinking with Thomas. Meanwhile his wife Betty would lay out a truly impressive spread of goodies for class breaks. I'm sure many generations of students heard the same stories about his encounters with Yeats and Thomas, his student Robert Lowell, his discovery and encouragement of the Beat poets, etc. As a workshop teacher he was consistently encouraging, but not--in my observation--very attached to student poets or indeed to anyone's poems but his own. The only advice I ever remember him giving me was that I should try working in strict forms--preferably sonnets. So I dutifully wrote dozens of very bad sonnets, terza rima, villanelles. And it was very good advice, I think. He was one of the first establishment poets to treat Ginsberg and the Beats seriously, and Ginsberg was always grateful and spoke up for Richard whenever opportunity arose. They were fellow Blakeans, despite their obvious differences. In his final years he lived at the same retirement home where my parents are, so I'd see him fairly often, though he had no idea who I was. Everyone said that he was never the same after Betty died. In any case, he was still vigorous physically even after his mind deteriorated, and would regale the nurses with poems without much provocation. He loved to recite "Cover me over, clover," in particular. 'Cover me over' Cover me over, clover; Cover me over, grass. The mellow day is over And there is night to pass. Green arms about my head, Green fingers on my hands. Earth has no quieter bed In all her quiet lands. * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Cancer Cells Today I saw a picture of the cancer cells, Sinister shapes with menacing attitudes. They had outgrown their test-tube and advanced, Sinister shapes with menacing attitudes, Into a world beyond, a virulent laughing gang. They looked like art itself, like the artist's mind, Powerful shaker, and the taker of new forms. Some are revulsed to see these spiky shapes; It is the world of the future too come to. Nothing could be more vivid than their language, Lethal, sparkling and irregular stars, The murderous design of the universe, The hectic dance of the passionate cancer cells. O just phenomena to the calculating eye, Originals of imagination. I flew With them in a piled exuberance of time, My own malignance in their racy, beautiful gestures Quick and lean: and in their riot too I saw the stance of the artist's make, The fixed form in the massive fluxion. I think Leonardo would have in his disinterest Enjoyed them precisely with a sharp pencil. --Richard Eberhart. *Collected Poems 1930-1986*. Oxford UP, 1988. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier at localnet.com Mon Jun 13 12:56:25 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:56:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Like a Rolling Nobel Laureate References: <007801c56fcc$38ab0230$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <42AD0919.2070603@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <00a601c57038$d664d8e0$440c9942@Helen> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alphaville" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Like a Rolling Nobel Laureate > You're kidding, right? > > None required. FIZZ > > The Old Mole wrote: > >> On 60 Minutes tonight. they mentioned that Bob Dylan had been nominated >> for the Nobel Prize for Literature. Thoughts? >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -------------------------------------------- My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Jun 13 13:06:25 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:06:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Eberhart - 1904-2005 Message-ID: Thanks for the stories. I know little about Eberhart (something I plan to remedy shortly) but recall that in Levine's essay about John Berryamn, Berryman says to a student "You let Dick Eberhard read your poems and you are here to tell the tale? Amazing!" In a message dated 6/13/2005 12:33:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: was one of Richard Eberhart's students in the early 1970s. He seemed ancient to me then--little could I have imagined he'd live another 30-plus years. Ancient in body, but not spirit. He was one of the most curious, boyish men I've ever met. Someone once described him as a combination of William Blake and a banker, and that seems about right. A complete romantic, he didn't seem to have an analytical or critical bone in his body, and always struck me as quite surprised at his own best poems. He was doggedly egotistical, so over-the-top at it that it was charming. He'd introduce "The Groundhog" at readings by remarking that this was a poem that future generations would still be reading long after he had died. And perhaps they will, though I've been sad to notice how even his handful of best poems have already begun slipping out of the anthologies. His workshops met weekly at his home. As a teacher he wasn't much given to instruction, but would hold forth, puffing on his pipe in a wingback chair, with many anecdotes about poets and poetry, often reciting classic and contemporary poems that had impressed him. It all seemed rather freely associative. Someone would hand out a poem with a snowy field in it, and he'd launch a story about Robert Bly. Someone else would turn in a villanelle, and he'd read "Do Not Go Gentle" and tell his tales of drinking with Thomas. Meanwhile his wife Betty would lay out a truly impressive spread of goodies for class breaks. I'm sure many generations of students heard the same stories about his encounters with Yeats and Thomas, his student Robert Lowell, his discovery and encouragement of the Beat poets, etc. As a workshop teacher he was consistently encouraging, but not--in my observation--very attached to student poets or indeed to anyone's poems but his own. The only advice I ever remember him giving me was that I should try working in strict forms--preferably sonnets. So I dutifully wrote dozens of very bad sonnets, terza rima, villanelles. And it was very good advice, I think. He was one of the first establishment poets to treat Ginsberg and the Beats seriously, and Ginsberg was always grateful and spoke up for Richard whenever opportunity arose. They were fellow Blakeans, despite their obvious differences. In his final years he lived at the same retirement home where my parents are, so I'd see him fairly often, though he had no idea who I was. Everyone said that he was never the same after Betty died. In any case, he was still vigorous physically even after his mind deteriorated, and would regale the nurses with poems without much provocation. He loved to recite "Cover me over, clover," in particular. 'Cover me over' Cover me over, clover; Cover me over, grass. The mellow day is over And there is night to pass. Green arms about my head, Green fingers on my hands. Earth has no quieter bed In all her quiet lands. * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Cancer Cells Today I saw a picture of the cancer cells, Sinister shapes with menacing attitudes. They had outgrown their test-tube and advanced, Sinister shapes with menacing attitudes, Into a world beyond, a virulent laughing gang. They looked like art itself, like the artist's mind, Powerful shaker, and the taker of new forms. Some are revulsed to see these spiky shapes; It is the world of the future too come to. Nothing could be more vivid than their language, Lethal, sparkling and irregular stars, The murderous design of the universe, The hectic dance of the passionate cancer cells. O just phenomena to the calculating eye, Originals of imagination. I flew With them in a piled exuberance of time, My own malignance in their racy, beautiful gestures Quick and lean: and in their riot too I saw the stance of the artist's make, The fixed form in the massive fluxion. I think Leonardo would have in his disinterest Enjoyed them precisely with a sharp pencil. --Richard Eberhart. *Collected Poems 1930-1986*. Oxford UP, 1988. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Jun 13 13:07:45 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:07:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Like a Rolling Nobel Laureate Message-ID: <156.52f2ad95.2fdf1761@aol.com> Funny. I was at a Dylan concert last night. For what it's worth, I don't think it's the first time he's been nominated. And what the hell, the Nobel Prize could go to worse. Al In a message dated 6/13/2005 12:57:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alphaville" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Like a Rolling Nobel Laureate > You're kidding, right? > > None required. FIZZ > > The Old Mole wrote: > >> On 60 Minutes tonight. they mentioned that Bob Dylan had been nominated >> for the Nobel Prize for Literature. Thoughts? >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -------------------------------------------- My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Mon Jun 13 13:10:21 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:10:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Like a Rolling Nobel Laureate Message-ID: <1a9.398d9533.2fdf17fd@aol.com> hey! remember, bob's already won the 2005 national book critics circle award for *chronicles, vol. 1* ! here's the link to transcript of bob dylan's interveiw with ed bradley: from the closing lines of the interview: " Dylan has been nominated this year for the Nobel Prize in literature for his songwriting. His new book has been a bestseller for the past seven weeks. It was published by Simon & Schuster, which is owned by Viacom, the parent company of CBS. Dylan is planning to write two more volumes of his memoirs." thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Jun 13 13:24:28 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:24:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eberhart II Message-ID: I wrote a poem about Eberhart some years ago--the occasion might have been his 90th or 95th birthday, I can't recall. "Old Poet Enduring Praise" describes a tribute event at which Ginsberg and others spoke. Anyway, I know I've posted it before. So here's a link in case anyone else is interested--scroll down on this page: http://www.cortlandreview.com/issuefive/graham5.htm ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jun 13 16:17:48 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:17:48 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eberhart II References: Message-ID: <003201c57054$f7f52890$adaa3252@ANNY> Thank you very much David. For both your recollection of Eberhart and for your poem and reading. Anny From: "David Graham" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:24 PM >I wrote a poem about Eberhart some years ago--the occasion might have been > his 90th or 95th birthday, I can't recall. "Old Poet Enduring Praise" > describes a tribute event at which Ginsberg and others spoke. > > Anyway, I know I've posted it before. So here's a link in case anyone > else > is interested--scroll down on this page: > > http://www.cortlandreview.com/issuefive/graham5.htm > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From hruggier at localnet.com Tue Jun 14 10:12:28 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:12:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eberhart II References: Message-ID: <007a01c570eb$193b7680$66099942@Helen> reminded me of an oldie I did back in the 80s - Eberhart fell asleep during a friend's reading - that was the trigger THE GROUNDHOG with appropriate apologies. .. . On Monday he lies there, a blossom of red growing from his belly, a corsage. Crows flap slowly away in the slipstream, settle back, quickly, hungry. Tuesday he's a smear, a hump of brown fur on the yellow line. Wednesday I can barely see him. He's pounded to the color of concrete. No bones about it; no time to seize geometry, not even the slow progression of rot. At 55 mpg he's dispersed along route two nineteen. The void is the same. It rushes up to fast these days to contemplate. xxx h ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:24 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Eberhart II >I wrote a poem about Eberhart some years ago--the occasion might have been > his 90th or 95th birthday, I can't recall. "Old Poet Enduring Praise" > describes a tribute event at which Ginsberg and others spoke. > > Anyway, I know I've posted it before. So here's a link in case anyone > else > is interested--scroll down on this page: > > http://www.cortlandreview.com/issuefive/graham5.htm > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -------------------------------------------- My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com From tad at opus40.org Tue Jun 14 10:30:51 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:30:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eberhart II References: <007a01c570eb$193b7680$66099942@Helen> Message-ID: <002e01c570ed$ad86cd60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Helen -- good one. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Ruggieri" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Eberhart II > reminded me of an oldie I did back in the 80s - > Eberhart fell asleep during a friend's reading - that was the trigger > > > THE GROUNDHOG > with appropriate apologies. .. . > > On Monday he lies there, a blossom of red > growing from his belly, a corsage. > Crows flap slowly away in the slipstream, > settle back, quickly, hungry. > > Tuesday he's a smear, a hump > of brown fur on the yellow line. > Wednesday I can barely see him. > He's pounded to the color of concrete. > > No bones about it; no time to seize > geometry, not even the slow progression > of rot. At 55 mpg he's dispersed > along route two nineteen. > > The void is the same. It rushes up > to fast these days to contemplate. > > xxx > h > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:24 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Eberhart II > > >>I wrote a poem about Eberhart some years ago--the occasion might have been >> his 90th or 95th birthday, I can't recall. "Old Poet Enduring Praise" >> describes a tribute event at which Ginsberg and others spoke. >> >> Anyway, I know I've posted it before. So here's a link in case anyone >> else >> is interested--scroll down on this page: >> >> http://www.cortlandreview.com/issuefive/graham5.htm >> >> >> >> ==================================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> Poetry Library: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> ==================================================== >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------- > My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and > corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from > www.choicemailfree.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From cc at opus0.com Tue Jun 14 11:19:18 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:19:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: meta-talk In-Reply-To: <200506120159.j5C1x5Re010855@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: I'd be curious to know how you define this. Seems to me discussions of theme, style, rhythm, 'philosophical bent', 'friskiness', and 'self-reflexiveness' are all meta-discussions. Along with every other reaction to a poem or poet beyond 'Oh wow'. > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:42:50 -0500 > From: David Graham > Subject: [New-Poetry] WS Graham ? > > There's little that is more boring, I think, than meta-discussion > on lists, <...> are even more boring than meta-talk. From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Jun 14 11:24:31 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:24:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: meta-talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just meant that I am heartily tired, on lists, of discussions of list behavior and etiquette. I didn't mean I was tired of metapoetic talk. on 6/14/05 10:19 AM, Crisman Cooley at cc at opus0.com wrote: > I'd be curious to know how you define this. Seems to me discussions of > theme, style, rhythm, > 'philosophical bent', 'friskiness', and 'self-reflexiveness' are all > meta-discussions. Along with every other reaction to a poem or poet beyond > 'Oh wow'. > > >> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:42:50 -0500 >> From: David Graham >> Subject: [New-Poetry] WS Graham ? >> >> There's little that is more boring, I think, than meta-discussion >> on lists, <...> are even more boring than meta-talk. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From hruggier at localnet.com Tue Jun 14 11:55:59 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:55:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] BAD DAY AT BLACKROCK Message-ID: <009e01c570f9$8f9a2a20$d90b9942@Helen> Several of you had sent me bad haiku for an anthology I did and today my agent just sent me a little email saying that she didn't think haiku (even bad ones) were marketable unless they were specific to one topic like honku (about cars) or catku or corporateku. Anyway, just wanted to share the bad news and thank you for sharing your bad poems. I'll try some small presses if I can think of an appropriate place. The stuff is really funny - Lester Maddox - flipped his last burger probably fries Maya got stomped in Stamps - made a career out of it and so forth xxx h -------------------------------------------- My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.kellogg at neu.edu Tue Jun 14 12:34:39 2005 From: d.kellogg at neu.edu (d.kellogg at neu.edu) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:34:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 12, Issue 27 Message-ID: For what it's worth, according to the Nobel prize web site, "Information about the nominations, investigations, and opinions concerning the award is kept secret for fifty years." See http://nobelprize.org/literature/nomination/index.html I learned about this during the Terri Shiavo fiasco, when a quack doctor who claimed she wasn't vegetative touted himself as having been nominated for the "Nobel Peace Prize in medicine" (there is no such thing, of course, if you look at the name). So although somebody may have nominated Bobby Z for the Nobel, nobody at the foundation is talking. David Kellogg Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines Department of English 465 Holmes Hall Northeastern University Boston, MA 02115 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cc at opus0.com Tue Jun 14 14:51:22 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:51:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: meta-talk In-Reply-To: <200506141600.j5EG04Re028333@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Very well. Carry on! > Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:24:31 -0500 > From: David Graham > Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: meta-talk > > I just meant that I am heartily tired, on lists, of discussions of list > behavior and etiquette. I didn't mean I was tired of metapoetic talk. > > > > > > on 6/14/05 10:19 AM, Crisman Cooley at cc at opus0.com wrote: > > > I'd be curious to know how you define this. Seems to me discussions of > > theme, style, rhythm, > > 'philosophical bent', 'friskiness', and 'self-reflexiveness' are all > > meta-discussions. Along with every other reaction to a poem or > poet beyond > > 'Oh wow'. > > > > > >> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:42:50 -0500 > >> From: David Graham > >> Subject: [New-Poetry] WS Graham ? > >> > >> There's little that is more boring, I think, than meta-discussion > >> on lists, <...> are even more boring than meta-talk. > > From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Tue Jun 14 23:54:48 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:54:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: <1118807688.42afa6884e283@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Mukhtaran BiBi I want to know was each man who raped her alone in the room with a door closed or did he do it in front of others? Were his trousers around his ankles? Did he leave his sandals on? Was his mother still alive and if so, was she proud of him that day? What was the sound he made as he came and what was he thinking as he wiped her blood and the scum of the man before him off. Wasn?t he just a little afraid? And what did he eat for dinner that night? Which words between him and his wife as he lay down beside her pungent with the scent of another woman and the men? Would he have noticed the way from that day on, his wife changed? The rich excitement of village life with its stonings and amputations. Now and then a hanging, yet how often Was there fortune enough to congregate in the occasion of actual sex? How intent was their listening? Very intent. How could they explain how it felt; the sense of dark justice and the tingling? The final insult: village children in the crowd watching as the woman emerged, not permitted enough to fully cover herself as she walks the shock of that body home. To where it would only be decent to die. The men linger, shaking their heads as the women go home to cook. Each of them undefended and weak; unprepared in any way for the fact that the woman would choose her life. Speak in a voice that would transverse continents. Build the school for the boys, the school for the girls. Seeming to thrive in plain daylight, in the twilight, the marketplace, the square, where any decent villager could see. From shkodrov at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 02:09:16 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1118807688.42afa6884e283@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: <20050615060916.43950.qmail@web54606.mail.yahoo.com> Kerry, Do you REALLY want to know all this and if "yes" WHY? (What I wonder is... were there people who turned their eyes away as this was happening... Not their minds -- just their eyes...) I guess the posting was triggered by the NYT article today, right? May I ask when did you actually write this? Now or back when it first happened? (I'm just curious, as I'm watching how my own perceptions change with the developing of this case... and not only this one...) Best, Rosie Kerry O'Keefe wrote:Mukhtaran BiBi I want to know was each man who raped her alone in the room with a door closed or did he do it in front of others? Were his trousers around his ankles? Did he leave his sandals on? Was his mother still alive and if so, was she proud of him that day? What was the sound he made as he came and what was he thinking as he wiped her blood and the scum of the man before him off. Wasn?t he just a little afraid? And what did he eat for dinner that night? Which words between him and his wife as he lay down beside her pungent with the scent of another woman and the men? Would he have noticed the way from that day on, his wife changed? The rich excitement of village life with its stonings and amputations. Now and then a hanging, yet how often Was there fortune enough to congregate in the occasion of actual sex? How intent was their listening? Very intent. How could they explain how it felt; the sense of dark justice and the tingling? The final insult: village children in the crowd watching as the woman emerged, not permitted enough to fully cover herself as she walks the shock of that body home. To where it would only be decent to die. The men linger, shaking their heads as the women go home to cook. Each of them undefended and weak; unprepared in any way for the fact that the woman would choose her life. Speak in a voice that would transverse continents. Build the school for the boys, the school for the girls. Seeming to thrive in plain daylight, in the twilight, the marketplace, the square, where any decent villager could see. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jun 15 08:00:28 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:00:28 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] On this day: Dante Message-ID: <005001c571a1$d29e24e0$faaa3852@ANNY> On this day in 1300, Dante was made one of the six Priors of Florence, the top political office in the city-state. Though only a two-month term -- the legal limit, so suspicious were the citizenry of corruption and power-plays -- Dante's appointment set in motion the series of events that would eventually cause his permanent banishment, and inspire some of the most memorable lines in the Divine Comedy. http://www.todayinliterature.com/stories.asp?Event_Date=6/15/1300 ______________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Wed Jun 15 09:52:18 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) (fwd) Message-ID: Rosie: I want to know all of it. I wrote this poem last night. Kerry On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Rosie Shkodrov wrote: > Kerry, > > Do you REALLY want to know all this and if "yes" WHY? (What I wonder is... were there people who turned their eyes away as this was happening... Not their minds -- just their eyes...) > > I guess the posting was triggered by the NYT article today, right? May I ask when did you actually write this? Now or back when it first happened? (I'm just curious, as I'm watching how my own perceptions change with the developing of this case... and not only this one...) > > > > Best, > Rosie > > > Kerry O'Keefe wrote:Mukhtaran BiBi > > I want to know was each man who raped her > alone in the room with a door closed or did he do it > in front of others? Were his trousers around his ankles? > Did he leave his sandals on? Was his mother still alive > and if so, was she proud of him that day? What > was the sound he made as he came and what > was he thinking as he wiped her blood and the scum > of the man before him off. Wasn?t he just > a little afraid? And what did he eat > for dinner that night? Which words between him > and his wife as he lay down beside her > pungent with the scent of another woman > and the men? Would he have noticed > the way from that day on, his wife changed? > > The rich excitement of village life with its > stonings and amputations. > Now and then a hanging, yet how often > Was there fortune enough to congregate > in the occasion of actual sex? How intent > was their listening? Very intent. > How could they explain how it felt; the sense > of dark justice and the tingling? The final insult: > village children in the crowd watching as the woman > emerged, not permitted enough to fully cover > herself as she walks the shock of that body home. > To where it would only be decent to die. > The men linger, shaking their heads as the women > go home to cook. Each of them undefended > and weak; unprepared in any way for the fact > that the woman would choose her life. > Speak in a voice that would transverse continents. > Build the school for the boys, the school for the girls. > Seeming to thrive in plain daylight, in the twilight, > the marketplace, the square, > where any decent villager could see. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional. > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Wed Jun 15 11:52:24 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:52:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry -- one last time? Message-ID: <200506151552.j5FFqOWd013267@mail4.atl.registeredsite.com> 9 Just to tie up this thread on ?the lessons of concrete poetry.? This is in reply to Bob?s from back on Monday, May 23: > In my opinion, I see Bob's early mathemaku work as very much having its > roots in concrete poetry, No time, alas, to get into this very interesting discussion (because about me?--well, that's certainly one nice thing about it). Just a few comments here and there (mostly on my own work since I consider myself an authority on it) till I'm back from my trip. I see my early mathemaku as purely textual--with the addition of the typography of mathematics. I rarely did anything visual or concrete in them, but I was infraverbal in some. > even some of the pieces collected in his Doing Long Division in Color, specifically the ones that were obviously made with scissors & paper, cut and pasted and composed "by hand." My later mathemaku have had a lot of elements that seem to me from concrete poetry--but a lot from what I consider visual poetry that is not concrete poetry, by my definition of concrete poetry, which I think is the formal original definition, which states nothing but textual elements should be used; I'm not sure such work had to be visual--I think it had to be significantly pluraesthetic in some way--it had to make the visual or the auditory much more important than it is in conventional poetry. SNIP of material I wish I had time to discuss. > Following Bob's mathemaku work we see, or so I do maintain, the conctruction of a bridge from and out of the concrete into vis-po. The more recent works done in PainShop extend, in my opinion, right smack into the realm of vis-po and, indeed, go beyond vis-po and could, I think, be considered works of digital art first and foremost (working backward into vis-po and into concrete, which to say they've taken on a whole other pedigree). And I have to ask, just because the piece contains or presents elements of language -- be it a letter or a word or a text fragment -- does that justify it as "poetry"? (Maybe "po" is more than just convenient, maybe it's downright appropriate.) Well, I feel every mathematical symbol I use in my mathemaku has a mathematical function, and that it is the same one for me it would be for a mathematician. My _____ ) means divide what's in front of it into what's in it. Those two "terms" are usually texts; when so, I am presenting a metaphorical connection between whatever the two texts are semantically about, or making poetry. Or attempting to. My paintshop long divisions go toward Magritte, I would agree, but are still more textual than his. If I have a label, it will be one text "times" another, not a single text. I worry that the visual elements in most of my paintshop pieces are simply ornamental, and that many of these pieces are not visual poetry. My worry is not about qualifying for a name but about doing as much with my visual elements as I tried to. No time to say more. In any case, to really do this discussion right, we'd have to focus on individual works. --Bob G. Bob replies: ?I see my early mathemaku as purely textual--with the addition of the typography of mathematics. I rarely did anything visual or concrete in them, . . ." I suppose you mean ?textual? in a sense that would apply to Zukofsky as well. Zukofsky often employed ideograms (graphic symbols), or ideographs (pictorial representations), whichever, to express ideas without using words or names. For example, he would use the Arabic numeral for zero instead of writing the word zero, or he would use the symbol for infinity instead of writing the word infinity or the words indefinitely great. (Of course there are other, more well-known instances of this practice in Zukofsky.) This practice, in and of itself, is not necessarily concrete poetry -- indeed, one can employ such in what might be called ?science-fiction poetry.? What makes me think your early Mathemaku work to be concrete poetry, or a derivative of concrete poetry, is that I have a hard time reading your divisions literally. And so I read your divisions as being symbolistical. A dividend is being devided by a divisor, but not really, it?s just a poetic expression (like an allegory) of the chimerical. As such, I find that quite poetical. Why I don?t think of them as ?textual? is because you are not telling me this story so much as SHOWING me it happen -- I do not read the quotient so much as behold the process. I think it is in the nature of the division (and you know that I have referred to this separation, this partition as a sort of punctuation) that if we are to read we read up to get the quotient, but your poetry is in the reading down of the long division, and I tend to actually find the quotient (the result of the division, or, the poetry of the poem) there, in the reading down of the long division. What I?m trying to say is that the quotient is in the whole of the mathemaku, in the Gestalt of the thing. I do think words can function semantically in a mathematical way, or, via a mathematical procedure. That is to say, the words can translate into each other and increase their meaning thereby (and isn?t it always the aim to increase the meaning of the words?). But I think you sometimes go beyond that while other times you stop short of that. It seems to me you go for a different effect, and that effect is within the grammar of the concrete, or the visual, as opposed to the purely semantic (or textual). As abstract as the mathemaku at first seems to be, it is in the reading entirely concrete, I think. But hey, this is only one man?s opinion, one man?s appreciation, and I am not a self-proclaimed authority on the matter, just a student (with a pack full of questions). And: ? . . . by my definition of concrete poetry, which I think is the formal original definition, which states nothing but textual elements should be used; . . .? I wish you would point me to this ?formal original definition.? Seriously. I think when concrete poetry left the typewriter for the variation in shapes and sizes of letters (as by means of the typesetter), it in effect left the realm of the ?nothing but textual elements.? And: ?My worry is not about qualifying for a name but about doing as much with my visual elements as I tried to.? The task (as it presents itself to me) is not about ?qualifying for a name? so much as keeping within the boundaries of a specific genre (or form) of writing, just as one would do with formal poetry (say if one were writing a sonnet -- normally of fourteen lines in any of several fixed verse and rhyme schemes). I think the operative word here is ?discipline? (keeping to a system of rules or methods). Now, if one were to intentionally set out to burst through those rather normative rules and methods (say, of concrete poetry, but not of vis-po because vis-po doesn?t seem to have any rules or methods), well, that?s another story (and one that is still being written -- and the jury is still out on just what those rules and methods are or will be -- will it be vis-po after all, is the result of the bursting of these norms already known and known by the tagline vis-po?). Granted, the discipline of concrete poetry is a (seemingly) done deal, as nobody (or, such is my experience) is doing concrete poetry any more (and I think this is in part because concrete poetry is hard to do -- to do well, that is -- and I would add that I do not see concrete poetry as having been exhausted, although in light of the body of work by Richard Kostelanetz I am inclined to think it is pretty close to exhausted, such is his range and ingenuity). So, to sum up what my contentions are: I would love to see a return to concrete poetry (as the shape or figure poem, but not necessarily -- the emphasis would have to remain to be on instantaneous apprehension of the image and this as complement to the word or to conscious intellection). I see vis-po (to speak of it as a genre or form of poetry, but necessarily of poetry as this seems to have acquired a new pedigree for itself, and that is digital art or graphic design) as being in flux, or in chaos, or as willy-nilly indecisive and irresolute about just what exactly it is or is to become (-- it may have already become a form of digital art or of graphic design). It seems one has to take into account the lmits and endowments or provisions or capacities of the medium one is working with. When Bob expresses worry that his visual elements are simply ornamental, this indicates for me the limits of his medium (or of his ability to get the most from his medium -- this is, from his tools, from his software). One?s project can begin in a concept that is basically ?literary,? but in the execution, the realization, the carrying into effect of that concept, the literary aspect may be lost or diluted so as to be nothing but a clever idea (the proverbial one- trick pony), and I wonder if such works will ever have anything to teach us about ourselves or about language or about anything other than being cute (- - art for art?s sake? I don?t think so.). I?d rather be the tortoise than the hare. (-- Or, like Nietzsche, I?d rather write for people who are not born yet.) Yes, I wrote ?stock and trade.? Yes, I meant: ?stock in trade.? No, my nines are not crows. They are little black cats. I got my copy of Break, Blow, Burn and so far I am loving it! I will read it over my vacation (and maybe return with a book report). But so far, I am loving it! Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino 9 From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Jun 15 12:11:46 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:11:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eberhart in memoriam Message-ID: A very apt brief essay on Eberhart by Adam Kirsch: http://www.nysun.com/article/15390 One interesting statistic: Eberhart was older than Auden. New Hampshire, February Nature had made them hide in crevices, Two wasps so cold they looked like bark. Why I do not know, but I took them And I put them In a metal pan, both day and dark. Like God touching his finger to Adam I felt, and thought of Michaelangelo, For whenever I breathed on them, The slightest breath, They leaped, and preened as if to go. My breath controlled them always quite. More sensitive than electric sparks They came to life Or they withdrew to ice, While I watched, suspending remarks. Then one in a blind career got out, And fell to the kitchen floor. I Crushed him with my cold ski boot, By accident. The other Had not the wit to try or die. And so the other is still my pet. The moral of this is plain. But I will not shirk it. You will not like it. And God does not live to explain. Richard Eberhart. Collected Poems 1930-1960. Oxford UP, 1960. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Jun 15 12:40:36 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:40:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] One more Eberhart Message-ID: Sea-Ruck Washback of the waters, swirl of time, Flashback of time, swirl of the waters, Loll and stroke, loll and stroke The world remade, the world broken, Knocked rhythm, make of the slime, The surge and control, stroke of the time, Heartbreak healing in the grime, and groaner Holding its power, holding the hurl, Loll and hurl, power to gain and destroy, The tall destruction not to undo A saffron inevitable sun, far and near, Some vast control, beyond tear and fear, Where the blood flows, and nights go, Man in his makeshift, there is home, And the dark swells, the everlasting toll, And being like this sea, the unrolling scroll, Stroke and loll, loll and stroke, stroke, loll --Richard Eberhart. Collected Poems 1930-1986. Oxford UP. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ATambellini01 at aol.com Wed Jun 15 13:10:20 2005 From: ATambellini01 at aol.com (ATambellini01 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:10:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] On this day: Dante Message-ID: so appropriate that Dante's political issues be remembered today as we face similar hells around the world. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jun 15 15:21:05 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:21:05 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dino Campana Message-ID: <007501c571df$60b9eb50$1ee83652@ANNY> I just received by Giovanna Mulas her poetry update (or ezine) _Isolanera_ and I thought you might be interested in reading or just seeing this wonderful poem by Dino Campana: (... and we went me and the ambiguous night) Dino Campana Per i vichi marini nell'ambigua Sera cacciava il vento tra i fanali Preludii dal groviglio delle navi: I palazzi marini avevan bianchi Arabeschi nell'ombra illanguidita Ed andavamo io e la sera ambigua: Ed io gli occhi alzavo su ai mille E mille e mille occhi benevoli Delle chimere nei cieli... Quando, Melodiosamente D'alto sale, il vento come bianca finse una visione di grazia Come dalla vicenda infaticabile De le nuvole e de le stelle dentro del cielo serale Dentro il vico marino in alto sale,... dentro il vico ch? rosse in alto sale Marino l'ali rosse dei fanali Rabescavano l'ombra illanguidita,... Che nel vico marino, in alto sale Che bianca e lieve e querula sal?! "Come nell'ali rosse dei fanali Bianca e rossa nell'ombra del fanale Che bianca e lieve e tremula sal?..." - Ora di gi? nel rosso del fanale Era gi? l'ombra faticosamente Bianca... Bianca quando nel rosso del fanale Bianca lontana faticosamente L'eco attonita rise un irreale Riso: e che l'eco faticosamente E bianca e lieve e attonita sal?... Di gi? tutto d'intorno Lucea la sera ambigua: Battevano i fanali Il palpito nell'ombra. Rumori lontani franavano Dentro silenzii solenni Chiedendo: se dal mare Il riso non saliva... Chiedendo se l'udiva Infaticabilmente La sera: a la vicenda Di nuvole l? in alto Dentro dal cielo stellare. ____________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jun 15 16:00:23 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:00:23 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) References: <20050615060916.43950.qmail@web54606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c571e4$ddc1b970$1ee83652@ANNY> I would like to underline this by Rosie: _were there people who turned their eyes away as this was happening... Not their minds -- just their eyes... distracted, too distracted, too many things, too many guilts, where does the first guilt start? the first distraction, that blinding feeling, who is right, it can't be _me_ or ma' (a spelling mistake, just right here) - not my fault... what a heavy weight, difficult to breathe /// The Enchanted Mountain by Thomas Mann. From: Rosie Shkodrov Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 8:09 AM Kerry, Do you REALLY want to know all this and if "yes" WHY? (What I wonder is... were there people who turned their eyes away as this was happening... Not their minds -- just their eyes...) I guess the posting was triggered by the NYT article today, right? May I ask when did you actually write this? Now or back when it first happened? (I'm just curious, as I'm watching how my own perceptions change with the developing of this case... and not only this one...) Best, Rosie Kerry O'Keefe wrote: Mukhtaran BiBi I want to know was each man who raped her alone in the room with a door closed or did he do it in front of others? Were his trousers around his ankles? Did he leave his sandals on? Was his mother still alive and if so, was she proud of him that day? What was the sound he made as he came and what was he thinking as he wiped her blood and the scum of the man before him off. Wasn't he just a little afraid? And what did he eat for dinner that night? Which words between him and his wife as he lay down beside her pungent with the scent of another woman and the men? Would he have noticed the way from that day on, his wife changed? The rich excitement of village life with its stonings and amputations. Now and then a hanging, yet how often Was there fortune enough to congregate in the occasion! of actual sex? How intent was their listening? Very intent. How could they explain how it felt; the sense of dark justice and the tingling? The final insult: village children in the crowd watching as the woman emerged, not permitted enough to fully cover herself as she walks the shock of that body home. To where it would only be decent to die. The men linger, shaking their heads as the women go home to cook. Each of them undefended and weak; unprepared in any way for the fact that the woman would choose her life. Speak in a voice that would transverse continents. Build the school for the boys, the school for the girls. Seeming to thrive in plain daylight, in the twilight, the marketplace, the square, where any decent villager could see. Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 19:22:37 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:22:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mix Tape Message-ID: <731bb17a050615162268de82af@mail.gmail.com> Here's an interesting idea I picked up from Steven Schroeder's blog, Sturgeon's Law (http://www.steveschroeder.info/news.html). I recommend Steve's blog, by the way. You can find the full post (w/comments) there. Poetry Mix Tape Okay, here's an exercise. You've just met someone you think is special (in a romantic way or a friendship way or whatever suits you for the exercise). They're smart (would you want 'em any other way?), but they don't really read poetry. However, because you're who you are, they want to learn more about poetry. To get them started, you must create a "poetry mix tape" of 10 poems as a starting point for their reading. The rationale for your picks can be pretty much whatever you want: your 10 favorite poems, 10 poems you think are intriguing for a newbie, 10 poems that reflect the aesthetic you're going for in your own writing, etc. The only rules are these: - No poems of your own. You ought to know better! - Since you can't be overwhelming them right off the bat, none of your mix-tape poems can be over three printed pages or about 150 lines. Sorry, no "Wasteland" or Paradise Lost as an appetizer. Pretty much anything else goes. Feel free to provide the rationale for your picks individually or collectively, or not. Well? Any takers? I'll give it some thought and post mine tomorrow. Maybe. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jun 15 19:40:05 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:40:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lessons of Concrete Poetry -- one last time? References: <200506151552.j5FFqOWd013267@mail4.atl.registeredsite.com> Message-ID: <015801c57203$8f450260$64b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob replies: > > > "I see my early mathemaku as purely textual--with the addition of the > typography of mathematics. I rarely did anything visual or concrete in > them, > . . ." > > I suppose you mean "textual" in a sense that would apply to Zukofsky as > well. Zukofsky often employed ideograms (graphic symbols), or > ideographs (pictorial representations), whichever, to express ideas > without > using words or names. For example, he would use the Arabic numeral for > zero instead of writing the word zero, or he would use the symbol for > infinity instead of writing the word infinity or the words indefinitely > great. > (Of course there are other, more well-known instances of this practice in > Zukofsky.) This practice, in and of itself, is not necessarily concrete > poetry > -- indeed, one can employ such in what might be called "science-fiction > poetry." For me that which is textual is anything that contains what I'm now calling "textemes" although I'm sure there must be a legitimate term for them I'm ignorant of. A texteme, for me, is any symbol whatever the size of a letter or smaller that has a linguistic use: letters, numerals, parentheses, commas, plu signs, etc. >What makes me think your early Mathemaku work to be concrete > poetry, or a derivative of concrete poetry, is that I have a hard time > reading > your divisions literally. And so I read your divisions as being > symbolistical. > A dividend is being divided by a divisor, but not really, it's just a > poetic > expression (like an allegory) of the chimerical. No, really. Let's divide two bananas by four. You get half a banana but you don't really slice the two bananas twice and throw away all but on-half of one. Add snow to woods--you get an image of snow on trees. You really did the addition. Multiplication is similar, just more complex. Multiply woods by snow and you get more than a light coating of snow on the trees. Assuming you're only working with denotations. Once you figure in connotations, as you must in a poem, you actually literally (albeit also imaginatively) get pieces of snow and snow-aura and cold and winter and softness, distributed muliplicatively throughout the woods, with the woods also muliplicatively connotative. Division reverses it. Or so I strongly feel. Of course, it's all metaphorical, too. > As such, I find that quite > poetical. Why I don't think of them as "textual" is because you are not > telling me this story so much as SHOWING me it happen -- I do not read > the quotient so much as behold the process. I think it is in the nature > of the > division (and you know that I have referred to this separation, this > partition > as a sort of punctuation) that if we are to read we read up to get the > quotient, > but your poetry is in the reading down of the long division, and I tend to > actually find the quotient (the result of the division, or, the poetry of > the > poem) there, in the reading down of the long division. What I'm trying to > say is that the quotient is in the whole of the mathemaku, in the Gestalt > of > the thing. I like this. If I'm following you, you observe the long division as a kind of machine which a divisor enters, forcing a quotient to appear at the top and what I call the sub-dividend product to appear below the dividend, with a remainder, if there is one, chunking down at the end. At any rate, that's how I "feel" these things. So I guess they are concrete in that sense. I have trouble considering them visual, though, because they are ONLY visual the way texts are visual in non-visual poetry. There's no heightening of their visuality. Except, yes, that words or the like are where numbers would be in a conventional long division example. I guess my long division poems are both concrete/visual and textual--the ones, I mean, that don't have graphics. > > I do think words can function semantically in a mathematical way, or, via > a > mathematical procedure. That is to say, the words can translate into each > other and increase their meaning thereby (and isn't it always the aim to > increase the meaning of the words?). But I think you sometimes go beyond > that while other times you stop short of that. Here, we'd have to go on a case by case basis. I tend to think it's all words and the images they represent interacting in my mathemaku. >It seems to me you go for a > different effect, and that effect is within the grammar of the concrete, > or the > visual, as opposed to the purely semantic (or textual). As abstract as > the > mathemaku at first seems to be, it is in the reading entirely concrete, I > think. > But hey, this is only one man's opinion, one man's appreciation, and I am > not a self-proclaimed authority on the matter, just a student (with a pack > full > of questions). > > And: > > " . . . by my definition of concrete poetry, which I think is the formal > original definition, which states nothing but textual elements should be > used; > . . ." > > I wish you would point me to this "formal original definition." > Seriously. I think the "Brazilian Pilot Plan" was available at Ubu, but Ubu has been taken down. Solt has this, "The Brazilian 'pilot plan,' like Gomringer's manifesto 'from line to constellation,' deals only with poems made from words." She goes on to say that the Brazilians did make some things without words that they considered poems, one of which is a pyramid of cut-out pictures of eyes by Augusto de Campos. Ah, I found the Pilot Plan in Concerning Concrete Poetry, the Cobbing/Mayer book: "concrete poem is an object in and by itself, not an interpretor of exterior objects and/or more or less subjective feelings, its material: word (sound, visual form, semantical charge)." Quite explicit, and they stuck to the words only in most of their stuff I've seen. > I think when concrete poetry left the typewriter for the variation in > shapes > and sizes of letters (as by means of the typesetter), it in effect left > the realm > of the "nothing but textual elements." I can't follow you. Letters are text regardless of size or shapes (so long as the shape doesn't distort them unidentifiable).. > And: > > "My worry is not about qualifying for a name but about doing as much with > my visual elements as I tried to." > > The task (as it presents itself to me) is not about "qualifying for a > name" so > much as keeping within the boundaries of a specific genre (or form) of > writing, just as one would do with formal poetry (say if one were writing > a > sonnet -- normally of fourteen lines in any of several fixed verse and > rhyme > schemes). I think the operative word here is "discipline" (keeping to a > system of rules or methods). Now, if one were to intentionally set out to > burst through those rather normative rules and methods (say, of concrete > poetry, but not of vis-po because vis-po doesn't seem to have any rules or > methods), well, that's another story (and one that is still being > written -- and > the jury is still out on just what those rules and methods are or will > be -- will > it be vis-po after all, is the result of the bursting of these norms > already > known and known by the tagline vis-po?). I think I'm with you on all this. > Granted, the discipline of concrete poetry is a (seemingly) done deal, as > nobody (or, such is my experience) is doing concrete poetry any more (and > I > think this is in part because concrete poetry is hard to do -- to do well, > that is > -- and I would add that I do not see concrete poetry as having been > exhausted, although in light of the body of work by Richard Kostelanetz I > am inclined to think it is pretty close to exhausted, such is his range > and > ingenuity). Well, I see concrete poems but I don't hear them being called concrete poems. I still think that all concrete poems are visual poems--concrete poetry is a subset of visual poetry. > So, to sum up what my contentions are: I would love to see a return to > concrete poetry (as the shape or figure poem, but not necessarily -- the > emphasis would have to remain to be on instantaneous apprehension of the > image and this as complement to the word or to conscious intellection). I > see vis-po (to speak of it as a genre or form of poetry, but necessarily > of > poetry as this seems to have acquired a new pedigree for itself, and that > is > digital art or graphic design) as being in flux, or in chaos, or as > willy-nilly > indecisive and irresolute about just what exactly it is or is to become > (-- it > may have already become a form of digital art or of graphic design). > > It seems one has to take into account the lmits and endowments or > provisions or capacities of the medium one is working with. When Bob > expresses worry that his visual elements are simply ornamental, this > indicates for me the limits of his medium (or of his ability to get the > most > from his medium -- this is, from his tools, from his software). Some of the above, but--for me--more the feeling that some of my words are just captions for my graphics. I feel I may have nice graphics and effective poetry sharing a page but not doing more than enhancing each other--not, that is, sufficiently interacting. The result may be terrific, but I most want to get a product that's visually, verbally and visio-verbally moving. I think that any shortcomings in my mathemaku are due to my not having mastered the form, not to any limitation of the form. > One's > project can begin in a concept that is basically "literary," but in the > execution, > the realization, the carrying into effect of that concept, the literary > aspect may > be lost or diluted so as to be nothing but a clever idea (the proverbial > one- > trick pony), and I wonder if such works will ever have anything to teach > us > about ourselves or about language or about anything other than being cute > (- > - art for art's sake? I don't think so.). I'd rather be the tortoise > than the > hare. (-- Or, like Nietzsche, I'd rather write for people who are not > born > yet.) Not entirely sure what you're saying here, but I think I disagree, for I'm totally an art for art's sake person. If you want to learn something go to scientists or philosophers. > Yes, I wrote "stock and trade." Yes, I meant: "stock in trade." No, my > nines are not crows. They are little black cats. Awww. > I got my copy of Break, Blow, Burn and so far I am loving it! I will read > it > over my vacation (and maybe return with a book report). But so far, I am > loving it! What's Break, Blow, Burn? > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino Thanks for the in-depth reply. --Bob G. From snakecharmer at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 21:17:59 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:17:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mix Tape In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050615162268de82af@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a050615162268de82af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33abf275050615181749d5ae31@mail.gmail.com> Cripes. This is hard, because some of my favorites are way too long to be acceptable. So you've already disqualified Blake's Marriage of Heaven and Hell, Browning's Childe Roland, Tennyson's Hollow Men... But nevertheless, I'll throw myself to the wolves first. I choose those poets and poems that influenced me the first and the most. In no particular order: W.B. Yeats - The Circus Animals' Desertion William Blake - London (from Songs of Experience) Samuel Taylor Coleridge - This Lime-Tree Bower my Prison Seamus Heaney - Keeping Going Sylvia Plath - Colossus Sarah Teasdale - There Will Come Soft Rains Emily Dickinson - After great pain, a formal feeling comes W.H. Auden - Musee des Beaux Arts Matthew Arnold - Dover Beach Robert Frost - Nothing Gold Can Stay As for reasons--I could get into a dissertation on each of them, but won't. Suffice to say, these touched me early and deep, and they remain among my favorites today. If nothing else, I'd want someone I'm close to to know my personal influences. On 6/15/05, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > Here's an interesting idea I picked up from Steven Schroeder's blog, > Sturgeon's Law (http://www.steveschroeder.info/news.html). I recommend > Steve's blog, by the way. You can find the full post (w/comments) there. > Poetry Mix Tape Okay, here's an exercise. You've just met someone you > think is special (in a romantic way or a friendship way or whatever suits > you for the exercise). They're smart (would you want 'em any other way?), > but they don't really read poetry. However, because you're who you are, they > want to learn more about poetry. To get them started, you must create a > "poetry mix tape" of 10 poems as a starting point for their reading. The > rationale for your picks can be pretty much whatever you want: your 10 > favorite poems, 10 poems you think are intriguing for a newbie, 10 poems > that reflect the aesthetic you're going for in your own writing, etc. The > only rules are these: > > > - No poems of your own. You ought to know better! > - Since you can't be overwhelming them right off the bat, none of > your mix-tape poems can be over three printed pages or about 150 lines. > Sorry, no "Wasteland" or Paradise Lost as an appetizer. > > Pretty much anything else goes. Feel free to provide the rationale for > your picks individually or collectively, or not. > > Well? Any takers? I'll give it some thought and post mine tomorrow. Maybe. > > Jeff Newberry > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Jun 15 21:32:52 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:32:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mix Tape References: <731bb17a050615162268de82af@mail.gmail.com> <33abf275050615181749d5ae31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002c01c57213$548d7930$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Wyatt - They Flee From Me Yeats - When You Are Old Thomas - Fern Hill Keats - Ode on Melancholy Billy Collins - I Chop Some Parsley While Listening to Three Blind Mice Frost - Design Corso - the one about getting married cummings - the one about the falling leaf Kipling - Ballad of East and West Sir Patrick Spens There's a list that would give someone an idea of a lot of things to like about poetry. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Casinghino To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:17 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mix Tape Cripes. This is hard, because some of my favorites are way too long to be acceptable. So you've already disqualified Blake's Marriage of Heaven and Hell, Browning's Childe Roland, Tennyson's Hollow Men... But nevertheless, I'll throw myself to the wolves first. I choose those poets and poems that influenced me the first and the most. In no particular order: W.B. Yeats - The Circus Animals' Desertion William Blake - London (from Songs of Experience) Samuel Taylor Coleridge - This Lime-Tree Bower my Prison Seamus Heaney - Keeping Going Sylvia Plath - Colossus Sarah Teasdale - There Will Come Soft Rains Emily Dickinson - After great pain, a formal feeling comes W.H. Auden - Musee des Beaux Arts Matthew Arnold - Dover Beach Robert Frost - Nothing Gold Can Stay As for reasons--I could get into a dissertation on each of them, but won't. Suffice to say, these touched me early and deep, and they remain among my favorites today. If nothing else, I'd want someone I'm close to to know my personal influences. On 6/15/05, Jeff Newberry wrote: Here's an interesting idea I picked up from Steven Schroeder's blog, Sturgeon's Law (http://www.steveschroeder.info/news.html ). I recommend Steve's blog, by the way. You can find the full post (w/comments) there. Poetry Mix Tape Okay, here's an exercise. You've just met someone you think is special (in a romantic way or a friendship way or whatever suits you for the exercise). They're smart (would you want 'em any other way?), but they don't really read poetry. However, because you're who you are, they want to learn more about poetry. To get them started, you must create a "poetry mix tape" of 10 poems as a starting point for their reading. The rationale for your picks can be pretty much whatever you want: your 10 favorite poems, 10 poems you think are intriguing for a newbie, 10 poems that reflect the aesthetic you're going for in your own writing, etc. The only rules are these: a.. No poems of your own. You ought to know better! b.. Since you can't be overwhelming them right off the bat, none of your mix-tape poems can be over three printed pages or about 150 lines. Sorry, no "Wasteland" or Paradise Lost as an appetizer. Pretty much anything else goes. Feel free to provide the rationale for your picks individually or collectively, or not. Well? Any takers? I'll give it some thought and post mine tomorrow. Maybe. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Jun 15 21:35:36 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:35:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Eberhart - 1904-2005 In-Reply-To: <007d01c56fdb$102f8d80$1fab3452@ANNY> References: <007d01c56fdb$102f8d80$1fab3452@ANNY> Message-ID: <1118885736.5051.13.camel@malatesta> On Mon, 2005-06-13 at 07:45 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Minnesota native, Pulitzer-winning poet Richard Eberhart dies > Associated Press > Published June 12, 2005 > > HANOVER, N.H. ? Richard Eberhart, a Pulitzer Prize-winning poet > admired for mentoring generations of aspiring writers, died at his > home Thursday after a short illness. He was 101. My own little tribute to Eberhart: http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-06-15/Quot_di_ Also top item on: http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/poetry -- Uche From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jun 16 08:07:33 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:07:33 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] James Finnegan Message-ID: <035f01c5726b$faa87ba0$fcaf3252@ANNY> Thanks to the fact that it is already afternoon here, I am the first one who got to it: two poems by James Finnegan: http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/bljfinnegan.htm?nl=1 ____________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 16 08:21:52 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:21:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] James Finnegan References: <035f01c5726b$faa87ba0$fcaf3252@ANNY> Message-ID: <002101c5726d$fcf7ff00$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> A tip of the hat to Jim. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 8:07 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] James Finnegan Thanks to the fact that it is already afternoon here, I am the first one who got to it: two poems by James Finnegan: http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/bljfinnegan.htm?nl=1 ____________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 16 09:50:22 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:50:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] James Finnegan Message-ID: <7b.475bc047.2fe2dd9e@cs.com> In a message dated 6/16/2005 8:08:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: > > Thanks to the fact that it is already afternoon here, I am the first one who > got to it: > > two poems by James Finnegan: > http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/bljfinnegan.htm?nl=1 > Good ones, James! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 16 10:52:08 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:52:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? Message-ID: <004201c57282$fb196e70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> You'll never guess who James Woolcott chooses. http://jameswolcott.com/archives/2005/06/whos_the_best_p.php Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 16 11:24:32 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:24:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? Message-ID: <103.638a5418.2fe2f3b0@cs.com> No surprise here. I just once I could read Logan praise someone I really like. The poets he does praise rarely work for me, though I do enjoy his nastiness from time to time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 16 11:47:15 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:47:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? References: <004201c57282$fb196e70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <004501c5728a$ac059ef0$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Wow, I did guess. It might have been vaguely interesting if Wolcott mentioned the names of the poetry critics he knows. Does he know of more than five or six? I e.mailed him--called him a moron. Brought up Wilshberia. You know me. No, I don't expect an answer. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 16 11:48:36 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:48:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? References: <103.638a5418.2fe2f3b0@cs.com> Message-ID: <005401c5728a$dc1febe0$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> No surprise here. I just once I could read Logan praise someone I really like. The poets he does praise rarely work for me, though I do enjoy his nastiness from time to time. I wish I could just once read him DISCUSS someone I thought doing interesting work. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 16 11:54:08 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:54:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? References: <103.638a5418.2fe2f3b0@cs.com> Message-ID: <008701c5728b$a61f58e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Well, I've gone on the somewhat dubious record of being the only person on this list who likes Logan's criticism, which doesn't mean that I agree with it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? No surprise here. I just once I could read Logan praise someone I really like. The poets he does praise rarely work for me, though I do enjoy his nastiness from time to time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jun 16 05:01:37 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:01:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? In-Reply-To: <008701c5728b$a61f58e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: On 6/16/05 10:54 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > Well, I've gone on the somewhat dubious record of being the only person on > this list who likes Logan's criticism, which doesn't mean that I agree with > it. I know what you mean. He writes wonderful zingers, and I like the impulse to write negative reviews about bad poetry, but he seems to look at the whole poetry world through black-colored glasses. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jun 16 12:03:22 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:03:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? Message-ID: <20372265.1118937802075.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Make that two. I enjoy reading him and appreciate his avoiding lit-speak and blurb-speak and staying off bandwagons. Like you, I don't necessarily agree with him all the time. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: The Old Mole Sent: Jun 16, 2005 8:54 AM To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? Well, I've gone on the somewhat dubious record of being the only person on this list who likes Logan's criticism, which doesn't mean that I agree with it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? No surprise here. I just once I could read Logan praise someone I really like. The poets he does praise rarely work for me, though I do enjoy his nastiness from time to time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 16 12:24:04 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:24:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? References: <004201c57282$fb196e70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <004501c5728a$ac059ef0$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00ad01c5728f$d2abee60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> The "you'll never guess" was a joke. Who else would it be? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? Wow, I did guess. It might have been vaguely interesting if Wolcott mentioned the names of the poetry critics he knows. Does he know of more than five or six? I e.mailed him--called him a moron. Brought up Wilshberia. You know me. No, I don't expect an answer. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 16 12:24:21 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:24:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, Chicago Message-ID: <1b9.15a26713.2fe301b5@aol.com> Subject: [job] Distinguished Visiting Poet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Location: Chicago, Illinois Columbia College Chicago seeks a poet to fill an annual Distinguished Visiting Poet position for Spring Semester 2006. The position consists of a two-course load (in the graduate and undergraduate poetry programs), a public lecture/reading, and the opportunity to participate in the life of the programs and department. Very competitive salary. The ideal candidate will have a national reputation, a minimum of two books from nationally recognized presses, and a record of teaching excellence. Though we are looking for candidates for Spring 2006, please indicate in your letter if you'd like to be considered for the same position in future Spring semesters, as we will keep the materials of interested candidates on file. Please submit a letter of interest, curriculum vitae, short sample of recent work, and names, addresses, and phone numbers for 3 references to: Arielle Greenberg English Department Columbia College Chicago 600 South Michigan Avenue Chicago, Illinois 60605 Equal Opportunity Employer M/F/D/V -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 16 12:25:45 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:25:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? Message-ID: <86.2a4579bb.2fe30209@cs.com> In a message dated 6/16/2005 11:55:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > > Well, I've gone on the somewhat dubious record of being the only person on > this list who likes Logan's criticism, which doesn't mean that I agree with > it. > > > Tad Richards > Oh, I like it too. First thing I ever read in a new issue of New Criterion. By the way, did I ever tell you all that I got an email from W. L. hisself after I had given a somewhat mixed review to one of his own books of poems. He objected to my having called one of his poems "unaccountably crude." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 16 12:26:22 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:26:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? References: <20372265.1118937802075.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00d401c57290$250ccc60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> OK, let's look at this one. He trashes both Ashbery and Young. I like Ashbery a lot, haven't read enough Young but I probably don't like him as much. It seems to me that he is very acute on the difference between them. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? > Make that two. I enjoy reading him and appreciate his avoiding lit-speak > and blurb-speak and staying off bandwagons. Like you, I don't necessarily > agree with him all the time. > > - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Old Mole > Sent: Jun 16, 2005 8:54 AM > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? > > Well, I've gone on the somewhat dubious record of being the only person on > this list who likes Logan's criticism, which doesn't mean that I agree > with it. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 11:24 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? > > > No surprise here. I just once I could read Logan praise someone I really > like. The poets he does praise rarely work for me, though I do enjoy his > nastiness from time to time. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 16 13:13:58 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:13:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, Chicago References: <1b9.15a26713.2fe301b5@aol.com> Message-ID: <00f201c57296$cb8ddce0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Why don't we all apply as a team? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:24 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, Chicago Subject: [job] Distinguished Visiting Poet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Location: Chicago, Illinois Columbia College Chicago seeks a poet to fill an annual Distinguished Visiting Poet position for Spring Semester 2006. The position consists of a two-course load (in the graduate and undergraduate poetry programs), a public lecture/reading, and the opportunity to participate in the life of the programs and department. Very competitive salary. The ideal candidate will have a national reputation, a minimum of two books from nationally recognized presses, and a record of teaching excellence. Though we are looking for candidates for Spring 2006, please indicate in your letter if you'd like to be considered for the same position in future Spring semesters, as we will keep the materials of interested candidates on file. Please submit a letter of interest, curriculum vitae, short sample of recent work, and names, addresses, and phone numbers for 3 references to: Arielle Greenberg English Department Columbia College Chicago 600 South Michigan Avenue Chicago, Illinois 60605 Equal Opportunity Employer M/F/D/V ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 16 13:17:59 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:17:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? References: <86.2a4579bb.2fe30209@cs.com> Message-ID: <00fe01c57297$5af5e620$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> ...maybe they're accuntably crude? Crude on account of the heavy plodding metrics and obvious, heavy-handed imagery? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? In a message dated 6/16/2005 11:55:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Well, I've gone on the somewhat dubious record of being the only person on this list who likes Logan's criticism, which doesn't mean that I agree with it. Tad Richards Oh, I like it too. First thing I ever read in a new issue of New Criterion. By the way, did I ever tell you all that I got an email from W. L. hisself after I had given a somewhat mixed review to one of his own books of poems. He objected to my having called one of his poems "unaccountably crude." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jun 16 13:20:27 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:20:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? Message-ID: If William Logan could write poems as well as he insults other poets, he'd be something. At least something other than the clod of a poet he is. Al In a message dated 6/16/2005 1:18:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: ...maybe they're accuntably crude? Crude on account of the heavy plodding metrics and obvious, heavy-handed imagery? Tad Richards _www.opus40.org_ (http://www.opus40.org/) _http://opusforty.blogspot.com/_ (http://opusforty.blogspot.com/) ----- Original Message ----- From: _Rsgwynn1 at cs.com_ (mailto:Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) To: _new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu_ (mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? In a message dated 6/16/2005 11:55:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, _tad at opus40.org_ (mailto:tad at opus40.org) writes: Well, I've gone on the somewhat dubious record of being the only person on this list who likes Logan's criticism, which doesn't mean that I agree with it. Tad Richards Oh, I like it too. First thing I ever read in a new issue of New Criterion. By the way, did I ever tell you all that I got an email from W. L. hisself after I had given a somewhat mixed review to one of his own books of poems. He objected to my having called one of his poems "unaccountably crude." ____________________________________ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 13:41:56 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:41:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, Chicago In-Reply-To: <00f201c57296$cb8ddce0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <1b9.15a26713.2fe301b5@aol.com> <00f201c57296$cb8ddce0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <33abf275050616104120d84f24@mail.gmail.com> Tag-team teaching? Does that sort of thing work? On 6/16/05, The Old Mole wrote: > > Why don't we all apply as a team? > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* JforJames at aol.com > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:24 PM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, > Chicago > > *Subject:* [job] Distinguished Visiting Poet > *Content-Type:* text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Location: Chicago, Illinois > > Columbia College Chicago seeks a poet to fill an annual Distinguished > Visiting Poet position for Spring Semester 2006. The position consists > of a two-course load (in the graduate and undergraduate poetry > programs), a public lecture/reading, and the opportunity to participate > in the life of the programs and department. Very competitive salary. > > The ideal candidate will have a national reputation, a minimum of two > books from nationally recognized presses, and a record of teaching > excellence. Though we are looking for candidates for Spring 2006, please > indicate in your letter if you'd like to be considered for the same > position in future Spring semesters, as we will keep the materials of > interested candidates on file. > > Please submit a letter of interest, curriculum vitae, short sample of > recent work, and names, addresses, and phone numbers for 3 references to: > > Arielle Greenberg > English Department > Columbia College Chicago > 600 South Michigan Avenue > Chicago, Illinois 60605 > > Equal Opportunity Employer M/F/D/V > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 16 13:43:27 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:43:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? References: <86.2a4579bb.2fe30209@cs.com> <00fe01c57297$5af5e620$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <013c01c5729a$fda2eb90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Whoops...that was unaccountably crude. Just a typo, folks. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? ...maybe they're accuntably crude? Crude on account of the heavy plodding metrics and obvious, heavy-handed imagery? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? In a message dated 6/16/2005 11:55:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Well, I've gone on the somewhat dubious record of being the only person on this list who likes Logan's criticism, which doesn't mean that I agree with it. Tad Richards Oh, I like it too. First thing I ever read in a new issue of New Criterion. By the way, did I ever tell you all that I got an email from W. L. hisself after I had given a somewhat mixed review to one of his own books of poems. He objected to my having called one of his poems "unaccountably crude." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com Thu Jun 16 13:51:36 2005 From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:51:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America Message-ID: <200506161802.j5GI2cFJ000729@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:00:04 -0400 ************* Well, given that Logan mistook a machine shop for a factory floor when reviewing B.H. Fairchild, and couldn't get it even after Fairchild pointed that out (see the exchange in New Criterion archives), the "best poetry critic" isn't very smart. But how about we name some poetry critics we admire. I nominate Charles Simic as a fine writer on poetry. Logan is a bad joke. Richard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 16 14:24:53 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:24:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? References: Message-ID: <00d701c572a0$b12d7f90$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America?The Mole: Well, I've gone on the somewhat dubious record of being the only person on this list who likes Logan's criticism, which doesn't mean that I agree with it. I know what you mean. He writes wonderful zingers, and I like the impulse to write negative reviews about bad poetry, but he seems to look at the whole poetry world through black-colored glasses. Paul Not the "whole poetry world," Paul, just Wilshberia. Nonetheless, I consider him an okay albeit limited critic. Can anyone tell me if anybody who thinks him a poor critic has ever critiqued him? I also wonder just who the poetry critics in America are supposed to be. Are there more than two or three writing for national publications? How about in the small press? I never hear about ANYone who is supposed to be an important critic--aside from the ones writing for the slickstream, whose reputation comes from their positions, not what they say. And what critics are establishing a school of criticism like the idiotically named New Critics? Or the Deconstructionists, etc. I suppose there are the Postmodernists? My impression is that nothing much at all has been going on in American Poetry Criticism for twenty years or more but I can't say I know much about it. There are isolated mavericks like Silliman and me, but otherwise just long-spent celebrity-mediocrities like Vendler and Bloom, and journeymen-mediocrities like Logan who are still in their prime. I don't consider myself an innovative critic, by the way--just one trying to understand as much of what's going on in poetry as I can. In fact, I doubt that I'm superior to Logan in any way except range. There, thanks to New-Poetry, another blog entry done. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 16 14:26:31 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:26:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America References: <200506161802.j5GI2cFJ000729@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <001801c572a0$eca94fe0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Nancy Willard's "Telling Time" is a wonderful book of essays on poetry and writing. Mary Oliver's analysis of the sound values "Stopping By Woods" is a valuable way into that poem, and into poetry, Harold Bloom's "How to Read and Why" has good stuff in it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:51 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America > ***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:00:04 -0400 ************* > Well, given that Logan mistook a machine shop for a factory floor when > reviewing B.H. Fairchild, and couldn't get it even after Fairchild > pointed that out (see the exchange in New Criterion archives), the > "best poetry critic" isn't very smart. > > But how about we name some poetry critics we admire. I nominate > Charles Simic as a fine writer on poetry. Logan is a bad joke. > > Richard > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com Thu Jun 16 14:41:56 2005 From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:41:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan's poetry Message-ID: <200506161843.j5GIhN6q031909@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> A reader's review on Amazon of Logan's "Night Battles" gives a few samples from Logan's poems. He must be brave at least to publish stuff like that after he writes the kinds of reviews he writes. Richard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 16 14:48:40 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:48:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America References: <200506161802.j5GI2cFJ000729@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <014e01c572a4$03e290b0$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > But how about we name some poetry critics we admire. I nominate > Charles Simic as a fine writer on poetry. Logan is a bad joke. > > Richard I admire no prominent writer on poetry whatever, though I'm sure many are commpetent enough, like Simic. Marjorie Perloff is the only one I know of who does not write exclusively about Wilshberia--but she rarely knows what she's talking about. Is there another? --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 16 15:41:04 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:41:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? Message-ID: <1d8.3f07791a.2fe32fd0@cs.com> In a message dated 6/16/2005 1:20:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > > ...maybe they're accuntably crude? Crude on account of the heavy plodding > metrics and obvious, heavy-handed imagery? > > No this was just one poem, some sort of misfired love poem in which he compared his wife's butt to a speeding taxi. Or something like that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 16 15:42:16 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:42:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America Message-ID: <86.2a49cd0e.2fe33018@cs.com> In a message dated 6/16/2005 2:10:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com writes: > > But how about we name some poetry critics we admire. I nominate > Charles Simic as a fine writer on poetry. Logan is a bad joke. > > Richard Personally, I admire R. S. Gwynn, but how many people read The Hudson Review. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jun 16 16:07:27 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:07:27 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, Chicago References: <1b9.15a26713.2fe301b5@aol.com> <00f201c57296$cb8ddce0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <004801c572af$0604d370$b5aa3852@ANNY> Excellent idea, the salary is _competitive_! I can always translate some into something else, cheers, Anny From: The Old Mole Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 7:13 PM Why don't we all apply as a team? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:24 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, Chicago Subject: [job] Distinguished Visiting Poet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Location: Chicago, Illinois Columbia College Chicago seeks a poet to fill an annual Distinguished Visiting Poet position for Spring Semester 2006. The position consists of a two-course load (in the graduate and undergraduate poetry programs), a public lecture/reading, and the opportunity to participate in the life of the programs and department. Very competitive salary. The ideal candidate will have a national reputation, a minimum of two books from nationally recognized presses, and a record of teaching excellence. Though we are looking for candidates for Spring 2006, please indicate in your letter if you'd like to be considered for the same position in future Spring semesters, as we will keep the materials of interested candidates on file. Please submit a letter of interest, curriculum vitae, short sample of recent work, and names, addresses, and phone numbers for 3 references to: Arielle Greenberg English Department Columbia College Chicago 600 South Michigan Avenue Chicago, Illinois 60605 Equal Opportunity Employer M/F/D/V ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 16:23:01 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:23:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, Chicago In-Reply-To: <004801c572af$0604d370$b5aa3852@ANNY> References: <1b9.15a26713.2fe301b5@aol.com> <00f201c57296$cb8ddce0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <004801c572af$0604d370$b5aa3852@ANNY> Message-ID: <33abf27505061613231421f34f@mail.gmail.com> Anny: A wrestling match? Sort of a free-for-all royal rumble? And may the best man (or woman) win the job? That's always what I think of when I hear "competitive salary". On 6/16/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Excellent idea, the salary is _competitive_! I can always translate some > into something else, > cheers, Anny > > *From:* The Old Mole > *Sent:* Thursday, June 16, 2005 7:13 PM > > Why don't we all apply as a team? > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* JforJames at aol.com > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:24 PM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, > Chicago > > *Subject:* [job] Distinguished Visiting Poet > *Content-Type:* text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Location: Chicago, Illinois > > Columbia College Chicago seeks a poet to fill an annual Distinguished > Visiting Poet position for Spring Semester 2006. The position consists > of a two-course load (in the graduate and undergraduate poetry > programs), a public lecture/reading, and the opportunity to participate > in the life of the programs and department. Very competitive salary. > > The ideal candidate will have a national reputation, a minimum of two > books from nationally recognized presses, and a record of teaching > excellence. Though we are looking for candidates for Spring 2006, please > indicate in your letter if you'd like to be considered for the same > position in future Spring semesters, as we will keep the materials of > interested candidates on file. > > Please submit a letter of interest, curriculum vitae, short sample of > recent work, and names, addresses, and phone numbers for 3 references to: > > Arielle Greenberg > English Department > Columbia College Chicago > 600 South Michigan Avenue > Chicago, Illinois 60605 > > Equal Opportunity Employer M/F/D/V > > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jun 16 16:37:00 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:37:00 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, Chicago References: <1b9.15a26713.2fe301b5@aol.com><00f201c57296$cb8ddce0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><004801c572af$0604d370$b5aa3852@ANNY> <33abf27505061613231421f34f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a301c572b3$25e51610$b5aa3852@ANNY> Oh no Donna, it means that they pay you so much that you do not need to do anything else but what they listed below, they also give you opportunities with the salary! :-) This would be indeed an excellent solution for many of us. So go ahead folks! Anny From: Donna Casinghino Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:23 PM Anny: A wrestling match? Sort of a free-for-all royal rumble? And may the best man (or woman) win the job? That's always what I think of when I hear "competitive salary". On 6/16/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: Excellent idea, the salary is _competitive_! I can always translate some into something else, cheers, Anny From: The Old Mole Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 7:13 PM Why don't we all apply as a team? Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:24 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Distinguished Visiting Poet, Columbia College, Chicago Subject: [job] Distinguished Visiting Poet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Location: Chicago, Illinois Columbia College Chicago seeks a poet to fill an annual Distinguished Visiting Poet position for Spring Semester 2006. The position consists of a two-course load (in the graduate and undergraduate poetry programs), a public lecture/reading, and the opportunity to participate in the life of the programs and department. Very competitive salary. The ideal candidate will have a national reputation, a minimum of two books from nationally recognized presses, and a record of teaching excellence. Though we are looking for candidates for Spring 2006, please indicate in your letter if you'd like to be considered for the same position in future Spring semesters, as we will keep the materials of interested candidates on file. Please submit a letter of interest, curriculum vitae, short sample of recent work, and names, addresses, and phone numbers for 3 references to: Arielle Greenberg English Department Columbia College Chicago 600 South Michigan Avenue Chicago, Illinois 60605 Equal Opportunity Employer M/F/D/V ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Jun 16 17:36:11 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:36:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America In-Reply-To: <001801c572a0$eca94fe0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: There are many writers on poetry that I admire. William Logan wouldn't even be in my top 50. Nearly everyone on my short list is also a poet, but I do admire a lot of Helen Vendler. Haven't seen much of his stuff lately, but William Pritchard used to be someone I read with respect. Many of my favorites are, of course, not living. Jarrell has been mentioned: probably my favorite poet-critic of all time, both for insight and for style. Jarrell is to Wm. Logan as Coltrane is to Kenny G. . . . Among more recently departed figures, William Matthews, Czeslaw Milosz and Thom Gunn, to name just three, also would be on my short list. Among the elders who are still with us, Hayden Carruth's about as good as they get, I would say. I have long admired Donald Hall, too, and Seamus Heaney. After that, the deluge: Wendell Berry, Robert Pinsky, Robert Hass, X. J. Kennedy, Ellen Bryant Voigt, Stanley Plumly, Robert Morgan, Carl Dennis, Annie Finch, David Lehman, Carol Muske-Dukes, Edward Hirsch, Charles Simic, Jane Hirshfield, David Mason, Dana Gioia, Mark Jarman, and our very own R. S. Gwynn. For starters. Recently I've been reading Marianne Boruch's *In the Blue Pharmacy* [Trinity UP], which I highly recommend. Gorgeous, lyrical essays on Williams, Neruda, Roethke, Hopkins, Levertov, Jarrell, Edson, Bishop, and much else. This book is just as good as her first collection of essays, *Poetry's Old Air*, which is one of my favorites of the past decade. Among other virtues, Boruch's work demonstrates how much deeper one can often penetrate by way of sympathetic appreciation than by way of scorn and superiority. on 6/16/05 1:26 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > Nancy Willard's "Telling Time" is a wonderful book of essays on poetry and > writing. > > Mary Oliver's analysis of the sound values "Stopping By Woods" is a valuable > way into that poem, and into poetry, > > Harold Bloom's "How to Read and Why" has good stuff in it. > > > Tad Richards ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Thu Jun 16 18:01:43 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:01:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mix Tape Message-ID: <200506162201.j5GM1hJS031454@mail8.atl.registeredsite.com> 9 Well, I don?t know if anyone is interested in what I think, but here goes: Poetry Mix Tape ?Well? Any takers?? Jeff Newberry 1. Sonnet No. 124 -- Shakespeare 2. The Phoenix and Turtle -- Shakespeare 3. To His Coy Mistress -- Andrew Marvell 4. Eyes and Tears -- Andrew Marvell 5. Sea Poppies -- H. D. 6. The Red Wheelbarrow -- William Carlos Williams 7. Mana Aboda -- T. E. Hulme 8. ?All in green went my love riding? -- Cummings 9. ?anyone lived in a pretty how town? -- Cummings 10. ?all ignorance toboggans into know? -- Cummings And, just generally, I would also give them a copy of Confucius to Cummings, edited by Ezra Pound and Marcella spann. Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino 9 From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 16 18:16:52 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:16:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America References: Message-ID: <01b701c572c1$1989e810$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Is there an equivalent of Clement Greenberg visibly writing poetry criticism today? If not, why not? No equivalents of Pollock and de Kooning around? But language poetry has made the Norton, and gotten a seat in the Academy of American Poets. What gives? --Bob G. From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Thu Jun 16 18:20:10 2005 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:20:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Experimental Writing and Aesthetics, call for papers Message-ID: <200506162220.j5GMKAx3003757@mail1.atl.registeredsite.com> . Call for Papers: Experimental Writing and Aesthetics Abstract/Proposals by 15 November 2005 Southwest/Texas Popular & American Culture Associations 27th Annual Conference Albuquerque, NM, February 8-11, 2006 Hyatt Regency Albuquerque 330 Tijeras Albuquerque, NM 87102 Phone: 1.505.842.1234 Fax: 1.505.766.6710 Panels now forming on topics related to Experimental Writing and Aesthetics in such areas as the aesthetics of experimental writing in any genre or in mutli-genre/multi-media works including digital and graphic compositions involving language, the poetics of performance of experimental compositions, critical studies of experimental writers, etc. Creative writers interested in the selective creative writing readings panel should contact Jerry Bradley, Creative Writing Readings Chair, via in the early fall. Scholars, teachers, professionals, writers not affiliated with academic institutions, and others interested in experimental writing are encouraged to participate. Graduate students are also particularly welcome with award opportunities for best graduate papers. If you wish to organize your own panel, I will be happy to facilitate your scheduling needs. Send abstracts, papers, or proposals for panels with your email address by 15 November 2005: Hugh Tribbey, Experimental Writing and Aesthetics Chair Email: htribbey at mailclerk.ecok.edu Mailing Address: Dr. Hugh Tribbey Department of English and Languages East Central University 1100 E. 14th St. Ada, OK 74820 Phone: 580-310-5524; Fax: 580-436-3329 Conference Website: (updated regularly) . From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Jun 16 18:41:51 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:41:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America Message-ID: <1e2.3e34d556.2fe35a2f@aol.com> i've always found jonathan holden's no-nonsense criticism illuminating, such as his essays found in the following collections. he's provided entree to a number of poets for my undergraduate students. The Old Formalism: Character in Contemporary American Poetry Style and Authenticity in Postmodern Poetry The Fate of American Poetry The rhetoric of the contemporary lyric thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 19:32:10 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:32:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mix Tape Message-ID: <731bb17a05061616321b1b6ef1@mail.gmail.com> Well, I'll post my ten: 1. "Eros Turannos," E.A. Robinson 2. "The Darkling Thrush," Thomas Hardy 3. "Holy Sonnet 14," John Donne 4. "Home Burial," Robert Frost 5. "Good Friday," Mark Jarman 6. "The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock," T.S. Eliot 7. Any of the "Proverbios y cantares," Antonio Machado 8. "Brazil," B.H. Fairchild 9. "The Afterlife," David Kirby 10. "What Work Is," Philip Levine I suppose my reasoning is simple: these are the poems that I enjoy the most, the ones that I can turn to time and again. I also like to think that I'm working with the same aesthetic as many of these writers are. Thanks to those of you who've responded. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 16 19:32:17 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:32:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America References: <1e2.3e34d556.2fe35a2f@aol.com> Message-ID: <01da01c572cb$a51dfa60$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> i've always found jonathan holden's no-nonsense criticism illuminating, such as his essays found in the following collections. he's provided entree to a number of poets for my undergraduate students. The Old Formalism: Character in Contemporary American Poetry Style and Authenticity in Postmodern Poetry The Fate of American Poetry The rhetoric of the contemporary lyric thom tammaro I ordered two of these based on the titles. Beware my wrath if Jonathan doesn't at least mention some kind of post-Eliot poetry, Thom. Incidentally, as I ordered, I was told of five Jack the Ripper books--for someone showing the taste I did in ordering the books I did. What's up? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 16 19:48:53 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:48:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America Message-ID: <14.47763425.2fe369e5@cs.com> In a message dated 6/16/2005 6:43:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Thom424 at aol.com writes: > > i've always found jonathan holden's no-nonsense criticism illuminating, such > as his essays found in the following collections. he's provided entree to a > number of poets for my undergraduate students. > > The Old Formalism: Character in Contemporary American Poetry > Style and Authenticity in Postmodern Poetry > The Fate of American Poetry > The rhetoric of the contemporary lyric > > > thom tammaro > moorhead, mn I like Jonathan's general theses, but I always groan at the specific examples he brings up to support them--almost all of which seem drawn from the Smith/Bottoms anthology. He once said nice things about a poem of mine in a piece in the AWP magazine, but when it came out in his next book he had revised it so that it wasn't so nice. Hindsight 20-20, I guess. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jun 16 20:24:56 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:24:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America References: <1e2.3e34d556.2fe35a2f@aol.com> <01da01c572cb$a51dfa60$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001b01c572d3$0040f490$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Maybe someone told them you were an enemy of poetry, and they're sending Jack after you. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America i've always found jonathan holden's no-nonsense criticism illuminating, such as his essays found in the following collections. he's provided entree to a number of poets for my undergraduate students. The Old Formalism: Character in Contemporary American Poetry Style and Authenticity in Postmodern Poetry The Fate of American Poetry The rhetoric of the contemporary lyric thom tammaro I ordered two of these based on the titles. Beware my wrath if Jonathan doesn't at least mention some kind of post-Eliot poetry, Thom. Incidentally, as I ordered, I was told of five Jack the Ripper books--for someone showing the taste I did in ordering the books I did. What's up? --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 20:26:46 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:26:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] For Teachers of Writing Message-ID: <731bb17a05061617264d57dfc1@mail.gmail.com> Any teachers of writing on the list, I request your help in spreading the word about my new project, The Practical Muse ( http://thepracticalmuse.blogspot.com/). I'm looking to post writing assignments, revision activites, etc. I've only been able to post my stuff, and I'd like to get this blog together as a resource for composition and writing teachers. I'd appreciate any shout-outs or submissions. Thanks much, Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 20:27:30 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:27:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America In-Reply-To: <001b01c572d3$0040f490$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <1e2.3e34d556.2fe35a2f@aol.com> <01da01c572cb$a51dfa60$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001b01c572d3$0040f490$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <731bb17a05061617272052cb@mail.gmail.com> You got it all wrong, Mole. Sam's a "versopath!" Jeff Newberry On 6/16/05, The Old Mole wrote: > > Maybe someone told them you were an enemy of poetry, and they're sending > Jack after you. > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Bob Grumman > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > *Sent:* Thursday, June 16, 2005 7:32 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America > > > i've always found jonathan holden's no-nonsense criticism illuminating, > such as his essays found in the following collections. he's provided entree > to a number of poets for my undergraduate students. > > *The Old Formalism: Character in Contemporary American Poetry > * > Style and Authenticity in Postmodern Poetry > *The Fate of American Poetry > * > The rhetoric of the contemporary lyric > > > thom tammaro > I ordered two of these based on the titles. Beware my wrath if Jonathan > doesn't at least mention some kind of post-Eliot poetry, Thom. Incidentally, > as I ordered, I was told of five Jack the Ripper books--for someone showing > the taste I did in ordering the books I did. What's up? > --Bob G. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 16 20:38:54 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:38:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America Message-ID: <104.63400b43.2fe3759e@aol.com> Is there a dividing line between critic and book reviewer. Has Logan written extensively about poetry outside of trashing 5 or 6 collections in an omnibus review? I think being a critic requires a thesis statement or theory (no matter how half-baked or cockamamie it may be). I think the aspect that Paul Lake alluded to is true. There is something slightly sadomasochistic about his reviewing. You know the joke. Q: Why do you hit your head against the wall? A: It feels so good when I stop. But Logan can't stop. Give it up, man. It's like that double-edged slogan in the Old Milwaukee beer commercials: "It doesn't get any better than this." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 16 20:40:13 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:40:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America References: <1e2.3e34d556.2fe35a2f@aol.com><01da01c572cb$a51dfa60$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001b01c572d3$0040f490$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <021c01c572d5$20488030$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Maybe someone told them you were an enemy of poetry, and they're sending Jack after you. Nah--he's comin' to HELP me! --Bob the Ripper -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Jun 16 20:41:11 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:41:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America Message-ID: jack-the-ripper? william-(logan)-the-ripper? hmmmmm.... bob, if you find the holden books totally useless, let me know. i'll consider taking them off your hands for a reasonable price. i always like having extra copies around for loaning to students. thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Jun 16 20:43:08 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:43:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America Message-ID: sam--yes, i agree. he does seem to choose the same poets for illustration. thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 16 20:45:32 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:45:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America References: <1e2.3e34d556.2fe35a2f@aol.com><01da01c572cb$a51dfa60$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001b01c572d3$0040f490$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <731bb17a05061617272052cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <023001c572d5$de818d80$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> You got it all wrong, Mole. Sam's a "versopath!" Jeff Newberry Not sure what you're talking about, Jeff, but the correct term is "verosopath": a person with a psychopathological hatred of truth-seeking. It has nothing to do with poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 16 20:53:33 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:53:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Piece on Peter Gizzi Message-ID: http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/Guides/content?oid=oid:115930 Mr. Poetry Nexus Poet Peter Gizzi now makes his home in the Valley, but he?s tramped though the poetry backwaters from C-Span to Housatonic and perhaps to Calcutta. by Andrew Varnon - June 16, 2005 >From Pittsfield to Amherst: poetry has taken Peter Gizzi across great distances and not-so-great ones. "That divide is interestingly alive in many ways," he said. "But then again, to me it's meaningless." Gizzi said that he reads across those boundaries, like many contemporary poets do, and tries to impress that upon his students at UMass. "I read Berryman, I read Ginsberg. I read Lowell, I read Jack Spicer," he said. He pointed to a later anthology, done in 1975 by the Vermont poet Hayden Carruth. "It's got everybody," he said. "I like that idea, that there's this vast field." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 16 20:58:46 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:58:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America References: Message-ID: <025a01c572d7$b7603d80$6eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> jack-the-ripper? william-(logan)-the-ripper? hmmmmm.... bob, if you find the holden books totally useless, let me know. i'll consider taking them off your hands for a reasonable price. i always like having extra copies around for loaning to students. thom tammaro Thanks for the offer, thom, but the copies I ordered are second-hand and only cost ten bucks, together, including postage and handling. Anyway, I'd be as apt to keep them if they seemed poor to me as I would if they seemed good, to take examples of Emnity to Poetry from! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Thu Jun 16 22:11:24 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:11:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mix Tape In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05061616321b1b6ef1@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a05061616321b1b6ef1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1118974284.42b2314c26e4f@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> one by Basho one by Sappho tail end of Canto 81 by E.P. When They Are Roused - Cavafy The Forgotten Dialect of the Heart - Jack Gilbert one middle period Gerald Stern Epiphany, 1937 - George Seferis (a little corny maybe but I DON'T CARE) one by Tristan Tzara (just to clear the mind) one by Doug Anderson Quinnapoxet by Stanley Kunitz Quoting Jeff Newberry : > Well, I'll post my ten: > 1. "Eros Turannos," E.A. Robinson > 2. "The Darkling Thrush," Thomas Hardy > 3. "Holy Sonnet 14," John Donne > 4. "Home Burial," Robert Frost > 5. "Good Friday," Mark Jarman > 6. "The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock," T.S. Eliot > 7. Any of the "Proverbios y cantares," Antonio Machado > 8. "Brazil," B.H. Fairchild > 9. "The Afterlife," David Kirby > 10. "What Work Is," Philip Levine > I suppose my reasoning is simple: these are the poems that I enjoy the > most, the ones that I can turn to time and again. I also like to think that > I'm working with the same aesthetic as many of these writers are. > Thanks to those of you who've responded. > > Jeff Newberry > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Thu Jun 16 22:45:36 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:45:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Piece on Peter Gizzi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118976336.42b23950a9f7c@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Peter works in my building...from my office window I can see him and James Tate lurking around smoking cigarettes at lunchtime, talking with students... I really like and admire his work - particularly the last book. He wandered in to the Stroffolino gig as well... oting JforJames at aol.com: > http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/Guides/content?oid=oid:115930 > > Mr. Poetry Nexus > > Poet Peter Gizzi now makes his home in the Valley, but he?s tramped though > the poetry backwaters from C-Span to Housatonic and perhaps to Calcutta. > > by Andrew Varnon - June 16, 2005 > > >From Pittsfield to Amherst: poetry has taken Peter Gizzi across great > distances and not-so-great ones. > > "That divide is interestingly alive in many ways," he said. "But then again, > > to me it's meaningless." Gizzi said that he reads across those boundaries, > like many contemporary poets do, and tries to impress that upon his students > at > UMass. "I read Berryman, I read Ginsberg. I read Lowell, I read Jack Spicer," > > he said. He pointed to a later anthology, done in 1975 by the Vermont poet > Hayden Carruth. "It's got everybody," he said. "I like that idea, that > there's > this vast field." > From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Thu Jun 16 23:14:55 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:14:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seferis Message-ID: <1118978095.42b2402f0f819@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Okay Jeff. Labor of love here, man, it's a three-pager... (I know everyone is just relieved I'm off the subject of gang-rape) okay here goes Epiphany, 1937 The flowering sea and the mountains in the moon's waning the great stone close to the Barbary figs and the asphodels the jar that refused to go dry at the end of day and the closed bed by the cypress trees and your hair golden; the stars of the Swan and that other star, Aldebaran. I've kept a hold on my life, kept a hold on my life, traveling among yellow trees in driving rain on silent slopes loaded with beech leaves no fire on their peaks; it's getting dark. I've kept a hold on my life; on your left hand a line a scar at your knee, perhaps they exist on the sand of the past summer perhaps they remain there where the north wind blew as I hear an alien voice around the frozen lake. The faces I see do not ask questions nor does the woman bent as she walks fiving her child the breast. I climb the mountains; dark ravines; the snow-covered plain, into the distance stretches the snow-covered plain, they ask nothing neither time shut up in dumb chapels nor hands outstretched to be, nor the road. I've kept a hold on my life whispering in a boundless silence I no longer know how to speak nor how to think; whispers like the breathing of the cypress tree that night like the human voice of the night sea on pebbles like the memory of your voice saying "happiness." I close my eyes looking for the secret meeting place of the waters under the ice the sea's smile, the closed wells groping with my veins for those veins that escape me there where the water-lilies end and that man who walks blindly across the snows of silence. I've kept a hold on my life, with him, looking for the water that touches you heavy drops on green leaves, on your face in the empty garden, drops in the motionless reservoir striking a swan dead in its white wings living trees and your eyes staring. This road has not end, has no relief, however hard you try to recall your childhood years, those who left, those lost in sleep, in the graves of the sea, however much you ask bodies you've loved to stoop under the harsh branches of the plane-trees there where a ray of the sun, naked, stood still and a dog leapt and your heart shuddered, the road has not relief; I've kept a hold on my life. The snow and the water frozen in the hoofmarks of the horses. From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Thu Jun 16 23:21:05 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:21:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mean Ray Bremser/Cavafy Message-ID: <1118978465.42b241a1242e7@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> When I was a kid, the beat poet Ray Bremser was in the business of more or less drinking himself to death in Hartford and flirting with one of my friends who, at that time, was probably one third his age. I told him I liked George Seferis and he muttered, "the Rod McKuen of Greece." Talk about dampened spirits. But since I am madly typing here, I guess I have to include the Cavafy poem, which sometimes I like to use to end a reading. When They Are Roused Try to guard them, poet, however few there are that can be kept. The visions of your loving. Set them, half-hidden, in your phrases. Try to sustain them, poet, when they are roused in your brain at night, or in the glare of noon. g'night all. K. From AlMaginnes at aol.com Thu Jun 16 23:57:54 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:57:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Piece on Peter Gizzi Message-ID: <1a0.35f2b093.2fe3a442@aol.com> And he's been to New York and San Francisco?!? The poetic possibilities must be endless. Just imagine--someone who's been on two coasts! X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE Peter works in my building...from my office window I can see him and James Tate lurking around smoking cigarettes at lunchtime, talking with students... I really like and admire his work - particularly the last book. He wandered in to the Stroffolino gig as well... oting JforJames at aol.com: > http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/Guides/content?oid=oid:115930 > > Mr. Poetry Nexus > > Poet Peter Gizzi now makes his home in the Valley, but he?s tramped though > the poetry backwaters from C-Span to Housatonic and perhaps to Calcutta. > > by Andrew Varnon - June 16, 2005 > > >From Pittsfield to Amherst: poetry has taken Peter Gizzi across great > distances and not-so-great ones. > > "That divide is interestingly alive in many ways," he said. "But then again, > > to me it's meaningless." Gizzi said that he reads across those boundaries, > like many contemporary poets do, and tries to impress that upon his students > at > UMass. "I read Berryman, I read Ginsberg. I read Lowell, I read Jack Spicer," > > he said. He pointed to a later anthology, done in 1975 by the Vermont poet > Hayden Carruth. "It's got everybody," he said. "I like that idea, that > there's > this vast field." > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry In a message dated 6/16/2005 10:46:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes: X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE Peter works in my building...from my office window I can see him and James Tate lurking around smoking cigarettes at lunchtime, talking with students... I really like and admire his work - particularly the last book. He wandered in to the Stroffolino gig as well... oting JforJames at aol.com: > http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/Guides/content?oid=oid:115930 > > Mr. Poetry Nexus > > Poet Peter Gizzi now makes his home in the Valley, but he?s tramped though > the poetry backwaters from C-Span to Housatonic and perhaps to Calcutta. > > by Andrew Varnon - June 16, 2005 > > >From Pittsfield to Amherst: poetry has taken Peter Gizzi across great > distances and not-so-great ones. > > "That divide is interestingly alive in many ways," he said. "But then again, > > to me it's meaningless." Gizzi said that he reads across those boundaries, > like many contemporary poets do, and tries to impress that upon his students > at > UMass. "I read Berryman, I read Ginsberg. I read Lowell, I read Jack Spicer," > > he said. He pointed to a later anthology, done in 1975 by the Vermont poet > Hayden Carruth. "It's got everybody," he said. "I like that idea, that > there's > this vast field." > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 17 06:35:35 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:35:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mean Ray Bremser/Cavafy References: <1118978465.42b241a1242e7@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: <001b01c57328$4bdd0830$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I told him I liked George Seferis and he muttered, "the Rod McKuen of >Greece." Hmme, anyone know what McKuen's international reputation is? Could he be a Seferis somewhere? --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Fri Jun 17 07:21:55 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:21:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] For Teachers of Writing References: <731bb17a05061617264d57dfc1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002f01c5732e$c78b1d40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Jeff - a good site. I'll try and contribute. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 8:26 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] For Teachers of Writing Any teachers of writing on the list, I request your help in spreading the word about my new project, The Practical Muse (http://thepracticalmuse.blogspot.com/). I'm looking to post writing assignments, revision activites, etc. I've only been able to post my stuff, and I'd like to get this blog together as a resource for composition and writing teachers. I'd appreciate any shout-outs or submissions. Thanks much, Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Jun 17 07:56:58 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:56:58 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? Message-ID: <28024116.1119009418322.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Can you send me the url for the reviews in question? I read them when they first came out but didn't memorize! - Jim -----Original Message----- From: The Old Mole Sent: Jun 16, 2005 9:26 AM To: James Cervantes , "NewPoetry:Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? OK, let's look at this one. He trashes both Ashbery and Young. I like Ashbery a lot, haven't read enough Young but I probably don't like him as much. It seems to me that he is very acute on the difference between them. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? > Make that two. I enjoy reading him and appreciate his avoiding lit-speak > and blurb-speak and staying off bandwagons. Like you, I don't necessarily > agree with him all the time. > > - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Old Mole > Sent: Jun 16, 2005 8:54 AM > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? > > Well, I've gone on the somewhat dubious record of being the only person on > this list who likes Logan's criticism, which doesn't mean that I agree > with it. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 11:24 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who's the Best Poetry Critic in America? > > > No surprise here. I just once I could read Logan praise someone I really > like. The poets he does praise rarely work for me, though I do enjoy his > nastiness from time to time. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 17 09:55:14 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:55:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist References: <28024116.1119009418322.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005401c57344$3249b9b0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Here's an anonymous response to my latest blog entry, the one calling the Vanity Fair moron a moron for describing William Logan as the best poetry critic in America (http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00501.html): Response To Blog501 = yo clue less joe found your terrible shit reserchin some article on language poetry some angry dude in minnesoda ripped yr lame ass (Note: the "angry dude" was Dan Schneider, whose intelligence, writing style and critical acuman closely resemble that of my correspondent--but, hey, his website draws probably five hundred times as many visiotors as my blog does, so what can I say?) thats how i found yr fucked down shit did you ever read that shit no mind 20 - 10 diveded by A right haha he also rips logan a new asshole and the two of them argue a bit at the end you dickwad http://cosmoetica.com/D22-DES15.htm lemme ask ever get laid in yr life 8 - 3 divided by LOSER --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jun 17 10:27:46 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:27:46 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist References: <28024116.1119009418322.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <005401c57344$3249b9b0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <008d01c57348$beb88350$d0eb3652@ANNY> Hi Bob, without getting into the Logan question, my point here is that we become public every time we push that button _send_, and as you know, there are so many heads out there: square, coned, triangled, with hypotenuses, radars or without. I am going through my hassle at the moment as well. That is why I am answering your mail right now. Do we have to disappear and cry our tears because of some completely (miles and Miles and MIIILLLES) different embodiment of our thought? I won't move a comma, here I am, the way that I am, the only one I know is right. I might be distinct tomorrow always in the conviction that the way I am is the only one I know to be the best. Thus that's it, cheers, Anny Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre. From: Bob Grumman Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 3:55 PM Here's an anonymous response to my latest blog entry, the one calling the Vanity Fair moron a moron for describing William Logan as the best poetry critic in America (http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00501.html): Response To Blog501 = yo clue less joe found your terrible shit reserchin some article on language poetry some angry dude in minnesoda ripped yr lame ass (Note: the "angry dude" was Dan Schneider, whose intelligence, writing style and critical acuman closely resemble that of my correspondent--but, hey, his website draws probably five hundred times as many visiotors as my blog does, so what can I say?) thats how i found yr fucked down shit did you ever read that shit no mind 20 - 10 diveded by A right haha he also rips logan a new asshole and the two of them argue a bit at the end you dickwad http://cosmoetica.com/D22-DES15.htm lemme ask ever get laid in yr life 8 - 3 divided by LOSER --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 17 10:36:38 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:36:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist References: <28024116.1119009418322.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net><005401c57344$3249b9b0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <008d01c57348$beb88350$d0eb3652@ANNY> Message-ID: <006c01c57349$f8b02f30$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks for the support, Anny (that's what it wuz, right!?)--but I'm okay. I LOVE responses like the one I quoted. I think they're a howl. And they give me an excuse to exercise my Formidable Wit. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Jun 17 10:57:18 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:57:18 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist Message-ID: <21769341.1119020238704.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Ah, but the raw power of the vernacular! And that astonishing synedoche: "minnesoda"! Not to mention the assumption of virginity! - Jim -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman Sent: Jun 17, 2005 6:55 AM To: James Cervantes , "NewPoetry:Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist Here's an anonymous response to my latest blog entry, the one calling the Vanity Fair moron a moron for describing William Logan as the best poetry critic in America (http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00501.html): Response To Blog501 = yo clue less joe found your terrible shit reserchin some article on language poetry some angry dude in minnesoda ripped yr lame ass (Note: the "angry dude" was Dan Schneider, whose intelligence, writing style and critical acuman closely resemble that of my correspondent--but, hey, his website draws probably five hundred times as many visiotors as my blog does, so what can I say?) thats how i found yr fucked down shit did you ever read that shit no mind 20 - 10 diveded by A right haha he also rips logan a new asshole and the two of them argue a bit at the end you dickwad http://cosmoetica.com/D22-DES15.htm lemme ask ever get laid in yr life 8 - 3 divided by LOSER --Bob G. From snakecharmer at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 11:25:25 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:25:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist In-Reply-To: <21769341.1119020238704.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <21769341.1119020238704.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <33abf27505061708256d1d48ab@mail.gmail.com> No one else is commenting on the brilliance of his closing insult? "8 - 3 divided by LOSER!" Sheer brilliance. I commend it, myself. In fact, I think I'm going to start using it in my arguments. It will make a stunning reposte: "Oh yeah? Well, 8 - 3 divided by LOSER!" My opponent will be speechless. On 6/17/05, James Cervantes wrote: > > Ah, but the raw power of the vernacular! And that astonishing synedoche: > "minnesoda"! Not to mention the assumption of virginity! > > - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > Sent: Jun 17, 2005 6:55 AM > To: James Cervantes , > "NewPoetry:Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Subject: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist > > Here's an anonymous response to my latest blog entry, the one calling the > Vanity Fair moron a moron for describing William Logan as the best poetry > critic in America ( > http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00501.html): > > Response To Blog501 = yo clue less joe > > found your terrible shit reserchin some article on language poetry > > some angry dude in minnesoda ripped yr lame ass > > (Note: the "angry dude" was Dan Schneider, whose intelligence, writing > style and critical acuman closely resemble that of my correspondent--but, > hey, his website draws probably five hundred times as many visiotors as my > blog does, so what can I say?) > > thats how i found yr fucked down shit > > did you ever read that shit no mind 20 - 10 diveded by A right haha > > he also rips logan a new asshole and the two of them argue a bit at the > end you dickwad > > http://cosmoetica.com/D22-DES15.htm > > lemme ask ever get laid in yr life > > 8 - 3 divided by LOSER > > --Bob G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 17 12:00:11 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:00:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist References: <21769341.1119020238704.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <33abf27505061708256d1d48ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008101c57355$a4b4bd90$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> No one else is commenting on the brilliance of his closing insult? "8 - 3 divided by LOSER!" Sheer brilliance. I commend it, myself. In fact, I think I'm going to start using it in my arguments. It will make a stunning reposte: "Oh yeah? Well, 8 - 3 divided by LOSER!" My opponent will be speechless. I think he'd have to make long division poems like I do to be fully humiliated. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 17 12:02:20 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:02:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist References: <21769341.1119020238704.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <008601c57355$f168f890$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Ah, but the raw power of the vernacular! And that astonishing synedoche: > "minnesoda"! Not to mention the assumption of virginity! > > - Jim Yikes, I missed the "minneSODA!" I better hope he doesn't attack again. --Bob G. From snakecharmer at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 12:09:18 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:09:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist In-Reply-To: <33abf275050617090845786556@mail.gmail.com> References: <21769341.1119020238704.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <33abf27505061708256d1d48ab@mail.gmail.com> <008101c57355$a4b4bd90$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <33abf275050617090845786556@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33abf2750506170909a372338@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Donna Casinghino Date: Jun 17, 2005 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] If You Guys Think I'm a Literary Terrorist To: Bob Grumman Bob: I doubt it, really. Lame insults are pretty universal. Right up there with telling Elizabeth Browning "Well, how do you SUCK? Let me count the ways..." Human nature: We all think of lame schoolground insults, from time to time--stupidity mistaken as wit. Some of us just know to keep our mouths shut (or our fingers still). And then there's the rest of the internet... ;) On 6/17/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > > No one else is commenting on the brilliance of his closing insult? > "8 - 3 divided by LOSER!" > Sheer brilliance. I commend it, myself. In fact, I think I'm going to > start using it in my arguments. It will make a stunning reposte: "Oh yeah? > Well, 8 - 3 divided by LOSER!" My opponent will be speechless. > I think he'd have to make long division poems like I do to be fully > humiliated. > --Bob G. > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jun 17 12:48:46 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:48:46 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] why poets are more reliable than scientists Message-ID: <014201c5735c$6df07db0$d0eb3652@ANNY> and after the Global Warming by which we were all going to dry out like smoked herrings (Clupea Harengus) in the mouth of some terrifying god, here is the Big Chill - that is why poets are more reliable than scientist: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/p33399.asp ____________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 14:06:36 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:06:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] why poets are more reliable than scientists In-Reply-To: <014201c5735c$6df07db0$d0eb3652@ANNY> References: <014201c5735c$6df07db0$d0eb3652@ANNY> Message-ID: <731bb17a05061711066d91223a@mail.gmail.com> Geez. Didn't those sciencey-types even *see* *The Day after Tomorrow*? Jeff ;-) On 6/17/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > and after the Global Warming by which we were all going to dry out like > smoked herrings *(Clupea Harengus)* in the mouth of some terrifying god, > here is the Big Chill - that is why poets are more reliable than scientist: > http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/p33399.asp > ____________________________________ > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jun 17 17:14:45 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:14:45 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] why poets are more reliable than scientists References: <014201c5735c$6df07db0$d0eb3652@ANNY> <731bb17a05061711066d91223a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006401c57381$961aee90$1a2ab750@ANNY> I saw it in Berlin, the right town I would say, _ and compliments for your _Muse_ take care, Anny From: Jeff Newberry Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 8:06 PM Geez. Didn't those sciencey-types even see The Day after Tomorrow? Jeff ;-) On 6/17/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: and after the Global Warming by which we were all going to dry out like smoked herrings (Clupea Harengus) in the mouth of some terrifying god, here is the Big Chill - that is why poets are more reliable than scientist: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/p33399.asp ____________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r_loden at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 17 22:54:47 2005 From: r_loden at sbcglobal.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:54:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Greenwood Encyclopedia of American Poetry: entries needed Message-ID: <000001c573b1$19cae4a0$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE> I've been asked to forward this to New Poetry. Please write to Jeffrey Gray (grayjeff at shu.edu) if interested. Thanks. The whole list is below. The editors of the Greenwood Encyclopedia of American Poetry http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~eoap/ are pushing to get it out before the end of 2005, but it's a vast undertaking. Though the ms. is "officially" turned in, there are still stray entries that need to be written, and soon! Some of these had been assigned and then were abandoned for one reason or another. At any rate, here they are, mostly 20th c. figures but also pre-20th and topic entries. If you're interested in writing any of these, or you have qualified colleagues to write any, please let Jeffrey Gray (grayjeff at shu.edu) know. The website gives our complete list of entries, guidelines, and so on. Ben Belitt Mae Cowdery Ann Spencer Judy Grahn David Ray W.S. DiPiero Michael Blumenthal George Scarborough Alfred Corn Nicole Brossard Diane Ackerman Turner Cassity William Logan Edgar Bowers, Janet Lewis Helen Pinkerton Dave Smith E. Ethelbert Miller Visual Arts and Poetry Lesbian Poetry (Poetics) Gay Poetry (Poetics) Benjamin Coleman Rowland Rugely Daniel Russell Henricus Selyns Thomas Holley Chivers ---------------------------------------------------------- People that are really weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history. --J. Danforth Quayle Rachel Loden The Richard Nixon Snow Globe: http://www.wildhoneypress.com/BOOKS/RNSG.htm r_loden at sbcglobal.net From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 18 09:39:02 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:39:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's the best poetry critic in America References: <104.63400b43.2fe3759e@aol.com> Message-ID: <006501c5740b$16fcdda0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Is there a dividing line between critic and book reviewer. Has Logan written extensively about poetry outside of trashing 5 or 6 collections in an omnibus review? I think being a critic requires a thesis statement or theory (no matter how half-baked or cockamamie it may be). I agree--except maybe not a formal statement, but enough comments to comprise some kind of fairly unified over-all statement. I don't know of any visible writer on American poetry that has done this. I think the aspect that Paul Lake alluded to is true. There is something slightly sadomasochistic about his reviewing. You know the joke. Q: Why do you hit your head against the wall? A: It feels so good when I stop. But Logan can't stop. Give it up, man. It's like that double-edged slogan in the Old Milwaukee beer commercials: "It doesn't get any better than this." Finnegan Don't ask me to reread him to find support, but I think he praises poets, too. But there are so many over-rated poets, I don't see how his reviews--limited as they are to the slickstream--could not be more negative than positive. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 18 11:30:28 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:30:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob & Sam shows, on Aus Radio Message-ID: In a message dated 6/17/2005 1:33:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, airplay at YOUR.ABC.NET.AU writes: > > POETICA > 18/06/2005 15:00 > 23/06/2005 21:00 (repeat) > > Bob Dylan - When I Paint My Masterpiece > URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1376045.htm > > Bob Dylan's lyrics have inspired many poets from Robert Adamson to Tony > Curtis, yet when asked in an interview if he considers himself a poet, > Dylan's only answer was "I'm a song and dance man." > > > LINGUA FRANCA > 18/06/2005 15.45 > 23/06/2005 21.45 (repeat) > > Samuel Johnson?s Dictionary... > URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/stories/s1391499.htm > > Johnsonian Nick Hudson on fellow Johnsonian Jack Lynch?s Selections from > the 1755 work that defined the English Language. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 14:00:06 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:00:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob & Sam shows, on Aus Radio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a050618110014ee1edd@mail.gmail.com> Was it Paul Simon who said, when asked if he was a poet, that if you wanted poetry, read William Carlos Williams or Wallace Stevens? I can't remember the exact quotation. Jeff Newberry On 6/18/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 6/17/2005 1:33:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, > airplay at YOUR.ABC.NET.AU writes: > > > POETICA > 18/06/2005 15:00 > 23/06/2005 21:00 (repeat) > > Bob Dylan - When I Paint My Masterpiece > URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1376045.htm > > Bob Dylan's lyrics have inspired many poets from Robert Adamson to Tony > Curtis, yet when asked in an interview if he considers himself a poet, > Dylan's only answer was "I'm a song and dance man." > > > LINGUA FRANCA > 18/06/2005 15.45 > 23/06/2005 21.45 (repeat) > > Samuel Johnson's Dictionary... > URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/stories/s1391499.htm > > Johnsonian Nick Hudson on fellow Johnsonian Jack Lynch's Selections from > the 1755 work that defined the English Language. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jun 18 14:27:48 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:27:48 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ted Kooser Message-ID: <000801c57433$6e3f1830$32d83052@ANNY> If you wish to listen to Ted Kooser, the entire interview in monoaural seems the best to me, http://www.poetrypoetry.com/Features/TedKooser/TedKooser.php __________________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 18 19:04:34 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:04:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mean Ray Bremser/Cavafy Message-ID: <1e.47a82f06.2fe60282@aol.com> Kerry, it's always the lesser lights and hangers-on of a movement that seem to believe they are demi-gods. Whose translation of Cavafy?...one of my keystone poets. I read the Seferis' journals (Days of 1945-1951, trans. A. Anagnostopoulos) a while back and I would recommend this book to anyone who sees poetry not as a career but as a calling... "Unimaginable how much patience is needed to see even the simplest things. How much patience I need to write a single verse." Finnegan n a message dated 6/16/2005 11:21:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes: > When I was a kid, the beat poet Ray Bremser was in the business of more or > less drinking himself to death in Hartford and flirting with one of my > friends > who, at that time, was probably one third his age. I told him I liked > George > Seferis and he muttered, "the Rod McKuen of Greece." > > Talk about dampened spirits. > > But since I am madly typing here, I guess I have to include the Cavafy poem, > > which sometimes I like to use to end a reading. > > > > When They Are Roused > > Try to guard them, poet, > however few there are that can be kept. > The visions of your loving. > Set them, half-hidden, in your phrases. > Try to sustain them, poet, > when they are roused in your brain > at night, or in the glare of noon. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Sat Jun 18 19:52:21 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:52:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mean Ray Bremser/Cavafy In-Reply-To: <1e.47a82f06.2fe60282@aol.com> References: <1e.47a82f06.2fe60282@aol.com> Message-ID: <1119138741.42b4b3b5781a6@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu> Jim, I am looking at the Complete Poems of Cavafy, tr. Rae Dalven, Intro by AUden, Harcourt & Brace. It was a library book I had to BUY from Trinity College to be awarded my diploma...I took it out and for some reason, I didn't think they necessarily needed it back... I wil definitely check out the Seferis notebooks. I am so nosy, I like to see what any poet writes in his/her notebook. It was due back May 27, 1972. damn. K. Quoting JforJames at aol.com: > Kerry, it's always the lesser lights and hangers-on of a movement > that seem to believe they are demi-gods. Whose translation of > Cavafy?...one of my keystone poets. > I read the Seferis' journals (Days of 1945-1951, trans. A. Anagnostopoulos) > a while back and I would recommend this book to anyone who sees > poetry not as a career but as a calling... > "Unimaginable how much patience is needed to see even the > simplest things. How much patience I need to write a single verse." > Finnegan > > n a message dated 6/16/2005 11:21:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes: > > > When I was a kid, the beat poet Ray Bremser was in the business of more or > > > less drinking himself to death in Hartford and flirting with one of my > > friends > > who, at that time, was probably one third his age. I told him I liked > > George > > Seferis and he muttered, "the Rod McKuen of Greece." > > > > Talk about dampened spirits. > > > > But since I am madly typing here, I guess I have to include the Cavafy > poem, > > > > which sometimes I like to use to end a reading. > > > > > > > > When They Are Roused > > > > Try to guard them, poet, > > however few there are that can be kept. > > The visions of your loving. > > Set them, half-hidden, in your phrases. > > Try to sustain them, poet, > > when they are roused in your brain > > at night, or in the glare of noon. > > > > > > From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Jun 18 21:39:23 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:39:23 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob & Sam shows, on Aus Radio Message-ID: <200506190016.j5J0Gdnc025468@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Funny---I just quoted that in a conversation with someone the other day. I always respected that quote, just as I respect Robert Hunter, The Grateful Dead lyricist, a few years back, when he was getting a lot of play---a book of his own poetry on Penguin, gigs at Naropa and such--and basically he started telling interviewers, things like "hey, wait a minute, I have years of study to get nearly as good as Ashbery or Rilke" and, as far as I know know one has heard much from him since-- Anyway, I was thinking of that in contrast to today, when Jewel and Billy Corgan and even Jeff Tweedy, as far as I know, have never made an analogous comment to Paul Simon's, but then again, of course, unlike the mid-1960s, music journalists and such aren't even asking such questions, and "poet" isn't even even a positive term of comparison, at least among the whites. In hip-hop it's different; perhaps (perhaps) best summed up in the aceyolone(?) song "headaches and woes," "that leaves me with a twisted view of the whole wide world as I know it, and I guess I got no choice but to be a poet"..... C P.S. the short answer to your question is YES; and i can't remember the exact quotation either; i remember him mentioning Stevens (and I remember his reference to frost and dickinson in "the dangling conversation") but i forgot he mentioned wcw.... ---------- From: Jeff Newberry To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bob & Sam shows, on Aus Radio Date: Sat, Jun 18, 2005, 10:00 AM Was it Paul Simon who said, when asked if he was a poet, that if you wanted poetry, read William Carlos Williams or Wallace Stevens? I can't remember the exact quotation. Jeff Newberry On 6/18/05, JforJames at aol.com > wrote: In a message dated 6/17/2005 1:33:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, airplay at YOUR.ABC.NET.AU writes: POETICA 18/06/2005 15:00 23/06/2005 21:00 (repeat) Bob Dylan - When I Paint My Masterpiece URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1376045.htm Bob Dylan's lyrics have inspired many poets from Robert Adamson to Tony Curtis, yet when asked in an interview if he considers himself a poet, Dylan's only answer was "I'm a song and dance man." LINGUA FRANCA 18/06/2005 15.45 23/06/2005 21.45 (repeat) Samuel Johnson's Dictionary... URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/stories/s1391499.htm Johnsonian Nick Hudson on fellow Johnsonian Jack Lynch's Selections from the 1755 work that defined the English Language. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Jun 19 09:34:11 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 06:34:11 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] query: poets & writers/popular culture Message-ID: <8934706.1119188051536.JavaMail.root@wamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Who comes to mind if we consider the use of elements of popular culture in original, creative work, either as detail or central subject? I'm thinking whole books, not isolated examples. I know that Rachel Loden has used Nixon and the Nixon era in such a way, aside from the political ramifications. And who would I turn to for discussion of such a dynamic? I'd like to devise a course with poets & writers and popular culture as its focus, and this would be as much an education for me as for the students. So, any recommendations would be of great value to me. - Jim p.s. - And, of course, I aware of the "New York School" and its folding in of popular culture. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 19 10:32:49 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:32:49 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] MiPOesias submission call Message-ID: <001a01c574db$c4d30230$b6ab3252@ANNY> http://mipoesias.blogspot.com/2005/06/critical-prose-submission-call.html Thank you, Didi Menendez Kemel Zalidvar MiPOesias Magazine www.mipoesias.com ___________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Sun Jun 19 10:52:32 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:52:32 EDT Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] query: poets & writers/popular culture Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Thom424 at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] query: poets & writers/popular culture Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:32:35 EDT Size: 2502 URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Jun 19 11:37:46 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:37:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] query: poets & writers/popular culture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not sure if you're thinking of anthologies, Jim, but a number spring to mind in addition to the one Thom mentions. Jim Elledge also did an anthology of rock and roll poems called *Sweet Nothings*. There are a series of anthologies from Milkweed Editions, also, such as *Drive, They Said: Poems About Americans and their Cars*, and one on hotels in America, etc. Then there are Komunyakaa's anthologies of jazz poems. For individual books, one that springs to mind is Denise Duhamel's book of Barbie poems. on 6/19/05 9:52 AM, Thom424 at aol.com at Thom424 at aol.com wrote: From: Thom424 at aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:32:35 EDT To: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] query: poets & writers/popular culture jim, david wojahn's collections *mystery train* (1990) and *late empire* (1994), both from univ. pittsburgh press, come to mind. the middle section of *mystery train* contains about 35-40 poems (mostly sonnets, i think) about rock & roll figures from the 50s-60s. i think my copy is still packed away from a recent office move, so i'm being a little tentative here. lots of elvis, if i recall. there's also an anthology *real things: an anthology of popular culture in america* ed. by jim elledge & susan swartout (indiana univ. press, 1999) that's full of good pop culture poetry. back in 1994, the *chicago review* published a special issue called "poetry and mass culture." lots of pop culture poems there, too. thom tammaro moorhead, mn ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Sun Jun 19 12:15:25 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:15:25 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] "8 - 3 divided by LOSER!" In-Reply-To: <200506181600.j5IG04Re025503@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200506181600.j5IG04Re025503@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Any detached observer, I think, would acknowledge that this insult ("8 - 3 divided by LOSER!") does result from at least a cursory reading of Poet Grumman's deep expositions here on NewPoetry on what could be a revolution in the history of poetry; also, it has a certain American je ne sais quoi as an insult qua insult. It is easy, it is pithy, it sneers but does not truly revile, barks without biting, and possesses, arguably, a matemakuistal charm, admittedly, of a primitive sort, exploding, as a figure of speech, inside the bubble of a cartoon where mad scientists argue over the meaning of life, like E=MC2ed (or something like that). R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > On 6/17/05, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> No one else is commenting on the brilliance of his closing insult? > > "8 - 3 divided by LOSER!" >> Sheer brilliance. I commend it, myself. In fact, I think I'm going to >> start using it in my arguments. It will make a stunning reposte: "Oh yeah? >> Well, 8 - 3 divided by LOSER!" My opponent will be speechless. >> I think he'd have to make long division poems like I do to be fully >> humiliated. >> --Bob G. > > -- From elemenope at icubed.com Sun Jun 19 12:35:00 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:35:00 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (Jeff Newberry) In-Reply-To: <200506191600.j5JG04Re032357@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200506191600.j5JG04Re032357@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > >Was it Paul Simon who said, when asked if he was a poet, that if you wanted >poetry, read William Carlos Williams or Wallace Stevens? > I can't remember the exact quotation. Jeff Newberry It was Dylan, I recall, and he said it in an interview in Time or Playboy 30 or so years ago. He spoke of himself as a mere song writer and remarked that if someone is seeking literary poetry they should read Wallace Stevens. And he was right. (Of course, "Tarantula" isn't a song, it's composed in that hyper hipster Burroughsian hypenated prose poetry emblematic of the 60s.) His lyric >Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot >fighting in the captain's tower comes to mind as apropos of something pertinent in this discussion, as well. R.D. -- From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jun 19 13:13:55 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:13:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] query: poets & writers/popular culture Message-ID: <1fd.3f4946e.2fe701d3@aol.com> Tim Seibles did a number of Wiley Coyote poems. They were more success than I at first supposed they'd be. Finnegan Review on Amazon by Scott http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0914946986/ref=pd_sxp_f/102-1970429-410 8154 In his fifth collection of poems, Tim Seibles' irreverent and humorous allusions to slices of American popular culture serve as a more comfortable, user-friendly vehicle to drive at some rather uncomfortable topics. The 40 poems in Hammerlock primarily deal with racial, political and religious tension in America. Using big-picture topics - about which so much has been written, discussed and re-written to the point of hackneyed redundancy that we sometimes tend to skip over the meaning behind the issues - Seibles really delivers, bringing his social concerns to life with surprising newness. In this book, it's the packaging that really conveys the message. In "What Bugs Bunny Said to Red Riding Hood," Seibles comments on the violent nature of man by using the voice with which countless boys grew up watching on Saturday morning cartoons. "This was your mother's idea? / She been livin' in a CrackerJack box or somethin' / ... That's right. Maybe your motha should / turn off her soaps, take a peak at a newspaper, turn on some cartoons for Pete's sake: / this woyld is about teeth, bubble buns - who's bitin' / and who's getting bit." Poems like this and "Commercial Break: Road-Runner, Uneasy," or its companion poem, "Midnight: the Coyote, Down in the Mouth," where Wile E. Coyote suffers through an all-to-human midlife crisis of self-doubt, hearken back to Seibles' previous work with cartoon allegories in 1992's Hurdy Gurdy. In this collection, "Natasha in a Mellow Mood," and its companion, "Boris by Candlelight," used cartoon characters from The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show to show that villains - even communists - call fall in love. Seibles likes to present common events, like growing old or falling in love, through uncommon perspectives. Then, by using the objective correlative so frequently it almost makes you question the meaning of the very print on the page, Seibles makes his point. He's going to give us different perspectives, whether they come from the voice of a woman, man, an imaginary conversation with Jimi Hendrix, or this "found poetry," taken from a 1965 speech given by Malcolm X: "Black on black crime is / a form of suicide. Gangs, drugs - / they're all part of a community trying / to slit its own wrists. Nobody / wants to deal with this. Sociologists say / build more recreation centers, / Give The Negro More Basketballs, / as if our true home was a gym." For many of the poems in this collection, that point is that people are more alike than we think - and our perspectives are more different than we think. Seibles knows the grass is greener on the other side. Seibles knows we want to fly south for the winter. Seibles knows we can't do none of it! So his poetry lets a white man see something he sees every day - but this time it's through the eyes of a black man. He lets a cartoon character feel tired of running toward the same sunset over the same rocky cliffs. In "Four Takes of a Similar Situation," he shows that the ideas of differences - between races, ethnicity, sexes, religions or colors - are the only things keeping us different, so "the world mus be retarded." Seibles knows that sometimes the best way to examine ourselves is to be temporarily removed from ourselves. It's all about perspective. It's also all about meter. Seibles has always written poetry that's so rhythmic and sound-oriented that you'd be better off using a metronome than attempting scansion. This time is no exception. Most poems have an underlying ghost meter, but it's the syncopation that draws attention to the poem's real pulse. "and say the afternoon / is the sound of heat / standing in the trees. / Maybe someone could know / about love / ... ." Seibles uses slant-rhyme or direct rhyme, he rhymes images or ideas, he switches between internal- or end-rhyme in a single couplet, but the point is, he uses a lot of all of it. If his poetry is a song, the various methods of rhyming serve to lay down something that would resemble a melody. But the beat, rich in syncopation, is always changing, keeping you on your feet, giving you poetry that pounds so y'all can dance to it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 19 13:16:35 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:16:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (Jeff Newberry) In-Reply-To: References: <200506191600.j5JG04Re032357@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <42B5A873.2080801@ix.netcom.com> I can't say what pertinence these lines of Bob Zimmerman's have for the current discussion because I haven't been following it. But as I learned a bit about Eliot and Pound as a college freshman, I realized that pretty much the last thing they did was "fight" each other. Pound championed Eliot's poetry and politically, both in their own ugly ways, remained reactionary to their dying days, Pound's admission to Ginsberg notwithstanding. Unlike the Joyce of Finnegan's Wake, Pound never entirely abandoned his admiration for Eliot though in later years he didn't make much of it either. But they were never adversaries. What did Dylan mean? They were struggling to be the numero uno among American poets? Nonsense. In fact, both left the Captain's Tower (Whitman's of 'Captain! Oh Captain!') e.g. America for exile in Europe. Again, the Captain in Whitman's poem is the recently assassinated Lincoln, not Whitman himself. Neither Eliot or Pound wanted a piece of 'The Captain's Tower' neither poetically or politically and especially not the way both had become interpreted in the popular mind. Then there's the use of 'Tower' suggesting academe's Ivory Tower. Pound was an 'academic' briefly until he was caught screwing a young woman "from the circus" at Hamilton. Eliot, having pretty much completed his dissertation on the philosopher F.H. Bradley, left the U.S. to immerse himself in the literary scene of London and abandoned his PhD. Both poets felt American verse and culture were inferior to te point that it would be detrimental to their ambitions. Then there's Whitman and academia? Whitman's 'Tower?' Proposterous. I think what Bob Zimmerman wanted to say is that Whitman has been taken up and corrupted by the academy which is in part true. He also wants Pound and Eliot to represent that academy which is patently false and not only reveals a profound ignorance but a prejudice against knowledge and its acquisition. FIZZ ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: >> >> Was it Paul Simon who said, when asked if he was a poet, that if you >> wanted >> poetry, read William Carlos Williams or Wallace Stevens? >> I can't remember the exact quotation. > > Jeff Newberry > > > It was Dylan, I recall, and he said it in an interview in Time or > Playboy 30 or so years ago. He spoke of himself as a mere song writer > and remarked that if someone is seeking literary poetry they should > read Wallace Stevens. And he was right. (Of course, "Tarantula" > isn't a song, it's composed in that hyper hipster Burroughsian > hypenated prose poetry emblematic of the 60s.) His lyric > >> Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot >> fighting in the captain's tower > > > comes to mind as apropos of something pertinent in this discussion, as > well. > > > R.D. > > > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 19 13:19:04 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:19:04 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] vw Message-ID: <008201c574f2$feaf82f0$b6ab3252@ANNY> http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1205 Please take your time to visit this entry on the Poets' Corner by Alan Sondheim I just put on. Vanni the webmaster has prepared a little surprise, if you click on the pic - anywhere you wish - it opens up. The fourth pic, after the first three is most beautiful, I wish I could paint with such a mastery. Why am I so taken by the first three pictures? I finally remembered, the smell, the color, the wooden box, those were _I cavallucci (the small horses)_; "Nonno, giochiamo ai cavallucci? (Grandpa, let's play with the small horses)", I was ten. ___________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thom424 at aol.com Sun Jun 19 14:16:02 2005 From: thom424 at aol.com (thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:16:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] query: poets & writers/popular culture In-Reply-To: <1fd.3f4946e.2fe701d3@aol.com> References: <1fd.3f4946e.2fe701d3@aol.com> Message-ID: <8C74312162DE886-660-8A2A@MBLK-M19.sysops.aol.com> joe wenderoth's *letters to wendy* (verse press, 2000?) also comes to mind. here's a review from *publisher's weekly*. "What kind of person is inspired by a fast-food restaurant? If this new book is any indication, it's one who is by turns worshipful, disturbing and just plain weird. Conceived as a series of comment cards to a local Wendy's, this unconventional fiction chronicles the life (or lack thereof) of an unnamed narrator who spends his days drinking oversize sodas and contemplating the meaning of the fast-food icon. In his more lucid moments, the narrator imagines Wendy's as a cradle-to-grave institution, supplying IV nourishment for a person's last days in the form of "liquid fries." He also posits that Wendy's would serve well as a site for state-sponsored executions, providing both the correct quality of light and an abundance of refreshments. He's just as likely, however, to devolve into soft-porn daydreams involving the counter help and prepackaged foods. About the narrator himself, we learn very littleAno name, no profession, no home address: just an Everyman as fast-food customer. In its best moments, the book delivers some insights into the social mores of people thrown together in a public place of business, people who share the same space and general eating habits but are unwilling to share much else. In short snippets, the narrative can be intriguing; excerpts have appeared on the Web site Nerve.com. But there's no plot to speak of, and spending time with this voyeuristic stranger quickly grows both creepy and tedious." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ thom tammaro moorhead, mn From mandolin at mac.com Sun Jun 19 17:40:55 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:40:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob & Sam shows, on Aus Radio In-Reply-To: <200506190016.j5J0Gdnc025468@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200506190016.j5J0Gdnc025468@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <40F53F4E-95B2-420D-806F-B1A6FF9667F5@mac.com> On Jun 18, 2005, at 9:39 PM, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Funny---I just quoted that in a conversation with someone the other > day. I always respected that quote, just as I respect Robert > Hunter, The Grateful Dead lyricist, a few years back, when he was > getting a lot of play---a book of his own poetry on Penguin, gigs > at Naropa and such--and basically he started telling interviewers, > things like "hey, wait a minute, I have years of study to get > nearly as good as Ashbery or Rilke" and, as far as I know know one > has heard much from him since-- > > Anyway, I was thinking of that in contrast to today, when Jewel and > Billy Corgan and even Jeff Tweedy, as far as I know, have never > made an analogous comment to Paul Simon's, but then again, of > course, unlike the mid-1960s, music journalists and such aren't > even asking such questions, and "poet" isn't even even a positive > term of comparison, at least among the whites. In hip-hop it's > different; perhaps (perhaps) best summed up in the aceyolone(?) > song "headaches and woes," "that leaves me with a twisted view of > the whole wide world as I know it, and I guess I got no choice but > to be a poet"..... > > C > > P.S. the short answer to your question is YES; and i can't remember > the exact quotation either; i remember him mentioning Stevens (and > I remember his reference to frost and dickinson in "the dangling > conversation") but i forgot he mentioned wcw.... > > ---------- > From: Jeff Newberry > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bob & Sam shows, on Aus Radio > Date: Sat, Jun 18, 2005, 10:00 AM > > > Was it Paul Simon who said, when asked if he was a poet, that if > you wanted poetry, read William Carlos Williams or Wallace Stevens? > > I can't remember the exact quotation. > > Jeff Newberry > > > On 6/18/05, JforJames at aol.com > > wrote: > In a message dated 6/17/2005 1:33:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, > airplay at YOUR.ABC.NET.AU writes: > > > POETICA > 18/06/2005 15:00 > 23/06/2005 21:00 (repeat) > > Bob Dylan - When I Paint My Masterpiece > URL: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1376045.htm > > Bob Dylan's lyrics have inspired many poets from Robert Adamson to > Tony > Curtis, yet when asked in an interview if he considers himself a poet, > Dylan's only answer was "I'm a song and dance man." Then there's the line from one of Simon's songs ( I forget which one) "He's so unhip, when you say 'Dylan,' he thinks you mean Dylan Thomas, whoever he was." From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 17:51:43 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:51:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (Jeff Newberry) In-Reply-To: References: <200506191600.j5JG04Re032357@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <731bb17a0506191451646c545d@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Richard, but I'll object to Dylan's use of "mere" to describe songwriting, which in my experience is a challenge unto itself. In college, I fashioned myself a singer/songwriter; but I learned quickly that I couldn't write a melody. Melody aside, songwriting is hard and has its own set of challenges that poetry doesn't have and vice versa. Comments on this? Jeff Newberry On 6/19/05, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > > > > >Was it Paul Simon who said, when asked if he was a poet, that if you > wanted > >poetry, read William Carlos Williams or Wallace Stevens? > > I can't remember the exact quotation. > Jeff Newberry > > > It was Dylan, I recall, and he said it in an interview in Time or > Playboy 30 or so years ago. He spoke of himself as a mere song > writer and remarked that if someone is seeking literary poetry they > should read Wallace Stevens. And he was right. (Of course, > "Tarantula" isn't a song, it's composed in that hyper hipster > Burroughsian hypenated prose poetry emblematic of the 60s.) His lyric > > >Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot > >fighting in the captain's tower > > comes to mind as apropos of something pertinent in this discussion, as > well. > > > R.D. > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 19 18:01:45 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:01:45 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) References: <200506191600.j5JG04Re032357@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <731bb17a0506191451646c545d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001701c5751a$7df3b410$77ab3852@ANNY> Yes, song translating. This French friend of mine who asked me to translate her song into English, and she knew some English. It took us several hours to translate a little more than a couple of words. Anny Ballardini ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) Thanks, Richard, but I'll object to Dylan's use of "mere" to describe songwriting, which in my experience is a challenge unto itself. In college, I fashioned myself a singer/songwriter; but I learned quickly that I couldn't write a melody. Melody aside, songwriting is hard and has its own set of challenges that poetry doesn't have and vice versa. Comments on this? Jeff Newberry On 6/19/05, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > >Was it Paul Simon who said, when asked if he was a poet, that if you wanted >poetry, read William Carlos Williams or Wallace Stevens? > I can't remember the exact quotation. Jeff Newberry It was Dylan, I recall, and he said it in an interview in Time or Playboy 30 or so years ago. He spoke of himself as a mere song writer and remarked that if someone is seeking literary poetry they should read Wallace Stevens. And he was right. (Of course, "Tarantula" isn't a song, it's composed in that hyper hipster Burroughsian hypenated prose poetry emblematic of the 60s.) His lyric >Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot >fighting in the captain's tower comes to mind as apropos of something pertinent in this discussion, as well. R.D. -- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sun Jun 19 18:40:44 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:40:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) Message-ID: <83.29df6d1a.2fe74e6c@aol.com> Songwriting is a whole other animal from poetry. I have great respect for good songwriters. There aren't that many of them. Speaking of which, Steve Earle, who certianly knows a thing or two about songwriting, said once when I saw him that to his mind writing poetry and playing bluegrass required great dedication and love for the form because you were never going to get it exactly right and you were never going to make any money. Later, when I told him how much I appreciated that remark he said, "I got too many ex wives to write poetry." Robert Hunter has not written any poetry that I know of in a while but has been writing a lot of new songs and according to his occasional web journal is working on a novel. In a message dated 6/19/2005 6:02:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: Yes, song translating. This French friend of mine who asked me to translate her song into English, and she knew some English. It took us several hours to translate a little more than a couple of words. Anny Ballardini ----- Original Message ----- From: _Jeff Newberry_ (mailto:jeff.newberry at gmail.com) To: _NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views_ (mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) Thanks, Richard, but I'll object to Dylan's use of "mere" to describe songwriting, which in my experience is a challenge unto itself. In college, I fashioned myself a singer/songwriter; but I learned quickly that I couldn't write a melody. Melody aside, songwriting is hard and has its own set of challenges that poetry doesn't have and vice versa. Comments on this? Jeff Newberry On 6/19/05, ELEMENOPE Productions <_elemenope at icubed.com_ (mailto:elemenope at icubed.com) > wrote: > >Was it Paul Simon who said, when asked if he was a poet, that if you wanted >poetry, read William Carlos Williams or Wallace Stevens? > I can't remember the exact quotation. Jeff Newberry It was Dylan, I recall, and he said it in an interview in Time or Playboy 30 or so years ago. He spoke of himself as a mere song writer and remarked that if someone is seeking literary poetry they should read Wallace Stevens. And he was right. (Of course, "Tarantula" isn't a song, it's composed in that hyper hipster Burroughsian hypenated prose poetry emblematic of the 60s.) His lyric >Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot >fighting in the captain's tower comes to mind as apropos of something pertinent in this discussion, as well. R.D. -- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list _New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu_ (mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) _http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry_ (http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry) -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: _ http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/_ (http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/) ____________________________________ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jun 19 19:16:44 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:16:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) Message-ID: <79.47cc1233.2fe756dc@aol.com> In a message dated 6/19/2005 6:41:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, AlMaginnes at aol.com writes: > Robert Hunter has not written any poetry that I know of in a while but has > been writing a lot of new songs and according to his occasional web journal > is working on a novel. > I have a tape somewhere of his Rilke translations...they struck as more liberal than even a Robert Bly fly-by. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sun Jun 19 21:25:13 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:25:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) Message-ID: <196.416a7867.2fe774f9@aol.com> In a message dated 6/19/2005 7:17:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: Robert Hunter has not written any poetry that I know of in a while but has been writing a lot of new songs and according to his occasional web journal is working on a novel. I have a tape somewhere of his Rilke translations...they struck as more liberal than even a Robert Bly fly-by. Finnegan They're pretty bad. Still, I admire the spirit of a lot of his pursuits even though the results are sometimes pretty awful. And, hell, I shared a house with a translator once; I'm not about to try and translate anything. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uche at ogbuji.net Sun Jun 19 21:41:34 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:41:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plaint Message-ID: <1119231694.28177.7.camel@malatesta> Plaint Rahab was scarlet—a jolly whale, Pelagic sex goddess#8212;life-shaper of shale; Ever jealous Jehovah declared her a whore: His militant faithful knew cadence no more. Rahab reigned loudly—a jolly muse, Broad icon of rhythm#8212;grand matron of blues; But shunned with her kin after hierophant war, Left the conquered world knowing cadence no more. -- Uche 1 February 2004, Beaver Creek CO (redacted from 15 Jan 96, Omaha) From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jun 20 03:02:52 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:02:52 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) References: <196.416a7867.2fe774f9@aol.com> Message-ID: <005701c57566$1390fc30$76ad3452@ANNY> Was s/he _that_ bad? I mean, burn all the pans even when he boiled only potatoes, forget lights on, be buried under papers and books all the time (even if the pc solved much), ... :-) From: AlMaginnes at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 3:25 AM They're pretty bad. Still, I admire the spirit of a lot of his pursuits even though the results are sometimes pretty awful. And, hell, I shared a house with a translator once; I'm not about to try and translate anything. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 08:20:16 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:20:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] query: poets & writers/popular culture In-Reply-To: <8C74312162DE886-660-8A2A@MBLK-M19.sysops.aol.com> References: <1fd.3f4946e.2fe701d3@aol.com> <8C74312162DE886-660-8A2A@MBLK-M19.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <33abf27505062005201557ef37@mail.gmail.com> Check out Updike's Rabbit novels. We had a special-topics course at Marist that did the (then) four-book series in conjunction with the history of the times. Each novel is set in a different decade, starting with the 50s, and has a ton of pop-culture reference: Rabbit, Run Rabbit Redux Rabbit is Rich Rabbit at Rest On 6/19/05, thom424 at aol.com wrote: > > > joe wenderoth's *letters to wendy* (verse press, 2000?) also comes to > mind. here's a review from *publisher's weekly*. > > "What kind of person is inspired by a fast-food restaurant? If this new > book is any indication, it's one who is by turns worshipful, disturbing > and just plain weird. Conceived as a series of comment cards to a local > Wendy's, this unconventional fiction chronicles the life (or lack > thereof) of an unnamed narrator who spends his days drinking oversize > sodas and contemplating the meaning of the fast-food icon. In his more > lucid moments, the narrator imagines Wendy's as a cradle-to-grave > institution, supplying IV nourishment for a person's last days in the > form of "liquid fries." He also posits that Wendy's would serve well as > a site for state-sponsored executions, providing both the correct > quality of light and an abundance of refreshments. He's just as likely, > however, to devolve into soft-porn daydreams involving the counter help > and prepackaged foods. About the narrator himself, we learn very > littleAno name, no profession, no home address: just an Everyman as > fast-food customer. In its best moments, the book delivers some > insights into the social mores of people thrown together in a public > place of business, people who share the same space and general eating > habits but are unwilling to share much else. In short snippets, the > narrative can be intriguing; excerpts have appeared on the Web site > Nerve.com . But there's no plot to speak of, and > spending time with this > voyeuristic stranger quickly grows both creepy and tedious." > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > thom tammaro > moorhead, mn > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Jun 21 01:42:06 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:42:06 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) Message-ID: <200506210419.j5L4H3Di105586@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> great earle quote! thanks! ---------- From: AlMaginnes at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) Date: Sun, Jun 19, 2005, 2:40 PM Songwriting is a whole other animal from poetry. I have great respect for good songwriters. There aren't that many of them. Speaking of which, Steve Earle, who certianly knows a thing or two about songwriting, said once when I saw him that to his mind writing poetry and playing bluegrass required great dedication and love for the form because you were never going to get it exactly right and you were never going to make any money. Later, when I told him how much I appreciated that remark he said, "I got too many ex wives to write poetry." Robert Hunter has not written any poetry that I know of in a while but has been writing a lot of new songs and according to his occasional web journal is working on a novel. In a message dated 6/19/2005 6:02:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: Yes, song translating. This French friend of mine who asked me to translate her song into English, and she knew some English. It took us several hours to translate a little more than a couple of words. Anny Ballardini ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) Thanks, Richard, but I'll object to Dylan's use of "mere" to describe songwriting, which in my experience is a challenge unto itself. In college, I fashioned myself a singer/songwriter; but I learned quickly that I couldn't write a melody. Melody aside, songwriting is hard and has its own set of challenges that poetry doesn't have and vice versa. Comments on this? Jeff Newberry On 6/19/05, ELEMENOPE Productions > wrote: > >Was it Paul Simon who said, when asked if he was a poet, that if you wanted >poetry, read William Carlos Williams or Wallace Stevens? > I can't remember the exact quotation. Jeff Newberry It was Dylan, I recall, and he said it in an interview in Time or Playboy 30 or so years ago. He spoke of himself as a mere song writer and remarked that if someone is seeking literary poetry they should read Wallace Stevens. And he was right. (Of course, "Tarantula" isn't a song, it's composed in that hyper hipster Burroughsian hypenated prose poetry emblematic of the 60s.) His lyric >Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot >fighting in the captain's tower comes to mind as apropos of something pertinent in this discussion, as well. R.D. -- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Tue Jun 21 09:22:45 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Who said what viz Stevens/Dylan/Simon? (JeffNewberry) In-Reply-To: <200506210419.j5L4H3Di105586@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200506210419.j5L4H3Di105586@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: I got too many "ex"es to NOT write poetry From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 14:47:12 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:47:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cartoon, Comics & Poetry In-Reply-To: <1fd.3f4946e.2fe701d3@aol.com> References: <1fd.3f4946e.2fe701d3@aol.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a050621114737bf240d@mail.gmail.com> I wrote this one a while back, inspired by favorite comic strip. I wonder--besides the one that Jim mentions below--are there other collections/single poems about cartoons or comics? The Great Pumpkin *You'll be sorry if he comes! Good grief, I said "if"! * *I meant when--when he comes!* ?Linus, concerning the Great Pumpkin *Faith means belief in something concerning which doubt is still theoretically possible.* ?William James Say he finally came, rising in pumpkin bedazzled glory. Not a beagle with winter-squash crowned head, but the Great Pumpkin Himself, the Holy Hallowed One whom Linus waits for every year, devoting himself to this pilgrimage in the pumpkin patch while Lucy and Schroeder and yes even Charlie Brown bob for apples or trick or treat from door to door?even Charlie Brown, with his Swiss-cheese sheet and a bag of rocks gets more respect than Linus the believer, who gets only ridicule, there in the pumpkin patch, shivering in the late October wind, purple blanket pulled tight to his chin, teeth chattering like ice rattling in a glass. Linus waits with faith, a fancy few would weave in these years: but if he heard a rustling in the brush, felt the pumpkin vines slide by his ankles, saw a silhouette of a cloaked pumpkin-headed man rise into the black October night, the full moon a beacon of truth behind, if Linus finally fell at the feet of the Great Pumpkin, he knows the secret that he can't tell: next year would bring no joy, no excitement, no pleading with Sally the agnostic to sit in sincerity with him, waiting for what's to come, cold together in the darkness, uncertain in their certainty Jeff Newberry On 6/19/05, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Tim Seibles did a number of Wiley Coyote poems. They > were more success than I at first supposed they'd be. > Finnegan > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Jun 21 16:51:58 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:51:58 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] By Nick Piombino Message-ID: <00db01c576a3$10ffbef0$a3ac3452@ANNY> on As/Is The Best Of 2005 The best cloud The best typo The best sigh The best breeze The best nap The best blank look The best Uh-Oh The best anxious moment The best I'm Starving The best glassy stare The best forgotten dream The best missed subway train The best gritty sweat The best loud sneeze The best I'm Not Going The best disappointed look The best insulting implication The best surprised look of comprehension The best eye-to-eye contact The best inscrutable comment The best disorganized desktop The best pen out of ink The best ink stain near your shirt pocket The best folded corner of a library book The best library late fine The best missing paperback The best lost small white towel The best series of annoying questions in the elevator The best insect bite The best series of jet screams over your apartment house The best leftovers The best moment of not finding a radio station The best boring moment on television The best nonchalant attitude The best failure to express any appreciation The best testosterone laden tirade The best fizzed out root beer The best incomprehensible explanation The best episode of exasperation The best procrastinated decision The best unsupportive attitude The best failed effort to tie your tie The best garbage smells The best It's Awful Noisy Isn't It The best insomniac sunrise The best organized pile of underwear in the closet The best stack of unread magazines The best exact time The best average cup of coffee The best lack of interest in sports The best Have A Nice Day The best interruption when not listening The best greeting card signature The best lack of categories The best I Don't Get It The best I Don't Like It The best moment when the hot water goes cold The best dressed wrong for the weather The best turning on the light The best turning off the light The best broken electric outlet The best almost empty bottle of white-out The best empty soy milk container The best hairbrush with lots of hair in it The best over filled dishwasher The best wallet with paper money in it The best full waste paper basket The best unopened bottle of mouth wash The best chair with a shirt lying on it The best plant touching the floor The best sneakers not put away The best couch with no one sitting on it The best turned off lamp The best silent speakers The best fan breeze The best late day sunlight on the outside brick wall The best drawer with a sleep mask and pills The best newspaper lying open on a chair The best closed window The best clink of dishes in the kitchen The best Do You Want To Have Dinner Now The best leaning back in your chair and thinking The best satisfied smile to yourself The best moment blankly staring at a white wall The best Select All The best clearing the throat The best You Were Right, I Was Wrong The best You Were Wrong, I Was Right The best long hug The best head scratch The best deep breath The best moment of uncertainty The best big stretch The best moment of relief due to kind words The best change for a dollar The best homeless person speech on the subway The best blank moment staring at an ashtray posted by Nick Piombino on Monday, June 20, 2005 ____________________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cc at opus0.com Tue Jun 21 23:45:55 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:45:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What does it mean to be a poet? In-Reply-To: <200506211600.j5LG04Re005975@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: One of the interesting things in the Gizzi article Finnegan posted (thanks James) was this: "Gizzi said that being recognized by the title 'poet' is still something that stuns him." So my question, apropos of Kaz's note to me below, asking me if I'm a poet, is: what's it mean to you to be a poet? One can become a businessman with the purchase of a $12 suit and instigation of a business meeting. One can become a father by impregnating a woman who bears the child. What's it take to become a poet? In my case, Kaz was looking for poems on the internet and didn't find my name attached to any of them. To answer the question for myself, I'd reintroduce Joyce's distinction (someone posted this, so I'm hoping your attribution is correct!) between 3 kinds of poets: 1) lyric 2) epic and 3) dramatic--the last being, in Joyce's scheme, the highest. And I'd like to admit that I have little skill and not much inclination as a lyric poet. Aphrodite bless thee, Sappho. Today, that's really not a good thing because the other two categories live mostly in history. There are some epic poems (or you could call 'em that) by lyric poets (WCW _Paterson_, Olson _Maximus_, H.D. _Helen in Egypt_, C. Daly _DaDaDa_ (do you like the company, CD?)) but are there any by people who consider themselves epic poets? Does David Mamet consider himself a dramatic poet? Does any other contemporary playwright have poetic training (or a pregnant girlfriend, or whatever) and consider his/her work poetic? To remove (for the moment) all aura and mystery from the title, I'd say what it is to be a poet is to complete at least one poem and to get at least one other person to read it. I've written and thrown away 2.5 million words in working to complete an epic poem. I'm pregnant, you might say, but haven't yet delivered. By my own definition, I'm not a poet. Would there be a reason that once I have delivered it, I should not consider myself some sort of poet? Or at least a fool who persisted in his folly? Finally: why do we raise the bar so high in this category, that pays almost nothing in money or fame? What is the cultural significance? What is the aura, mystery, electricity? I have ideas, but I'd really like to know what other people think. >-----Original Message----- >From: kazmandu at aol.com [mailto:kazmandu at aol.com] >Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 8:00 PM >To: cc at opus0.com >Subject: Re: new poetry list > > >Crisman, > Sure ... you can post it to the group ... I would have posted it but i just got around to >reading stuff that was near a month old. > >all the best! > >kaz > >http://www.kazmaslanka.com > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Crisman Cooley >>To: Kazmandu at aol.com >>Sent: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:44:46 -0500 >>Subject: RE: new poetry list >> >> >>Kaz, >>This is a very interesting question to me. Do you mind if I forward your question to the list >>and answer it there? It might stimulate some discussion about this basic question: what it >>means to be a poet. >> >>Crisman >>> -----Original Message----- >>>From: Kazmandu at aol.com [mailto:Kazmandu at aol.com] >>>Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 5:16 PM >>>To: cc at opus0.com >>>Subject: new poetry list >>> >>> >>>Crisman, >>> I was reading the new-poetry list and have noticed some of your posts. I did a search to >>>see if I could find your poetry but only came up with someone in Santa Barbara connected with >>>the energy business. What I find appealing is that it seems that you are interested in Joseph >>>Campbell and Mythology in general. Are you a poet? >>> >>>Kaz Maslanka From Kazmandu at aol.com Wed Jun 22 02:41:36 2005 From: Kazmandu at aol.com (Kazmandu at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:41:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re what does it mean to be a poet? Message-ID: <1f9.c349fec.2fea6220@aol.com> Crisman, I was reading the new-poetry list and have noticed some of your posts. I did a search to see if I could find your poetry but only came up with someone in Santa Barbara connected with the energy business. What I find appealing is that it seems that you are interested in Joseph Campbell and Mythology in general. Are you a poet? Kaz Maslanka -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Wed Jun 22 08:25:12 2005 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:25:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] History of W Culture / blog Message-ID: <1119443112.42b958a8cf6b4@webmail.ukonline.net> These are the latest relativistic splashings-about in my ?Not-Brief History of Western Culture? (The blog is now the homepage) http://michaelpeverett.blogspot.com Blogs, poetry, grasses (in the blog) Wolfram von Eschenbach - Parzival (1198) Shakesp. - III Henry 6 (1590) Moli?re (1670) Wordsworth - "Strange Fits of Passion" (1799) Scott - Marmion (1808) - and the young Whitman... Scott - The Abbot (1820) Luke Rhinehart - The Dice Man (1972) Finnish Poets - Mirkka Rekola and Kai Nieminen (2001) Hairy tare (Vicia hirsuta) (June 2005) enjoy your summer! Michael Peverett ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jun 22 09:16:50 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:16:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proprioception References: <85.281f95a5.2fc2bb3b@aol.com> Message-ID: <005801c5772c$a7201090$5cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hi, Kaz I may not have the definition of proprioception right but I would say that it has to do with many things besides the state of muscles with regard to each other and gravity, etc. Similarly, my cartoceptual awareness includes awareness of mucle states that indicate posture, location with respect to gravity (up/down), and left/right, etc.--for instance, sensitivity to the horizon, distances, 3-dimensionality, sound as indicator of distance, and--I believe--has actual maps hard-wired into it. Don't ask for details. I'm as yet very hazy about it. But it's much more than proprioception, but excludes much proprioception. Thanks for asking. Helps sharpen me understanding--and it's reassuring to know SOMEone's interested! all best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jun 22 09:33:39 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:33:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proprioception References: <85.281f95a5.2fc2bb3b@aol.com> <005801c5772c$a7201090$5cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <008301c5772f$029cdcd0$5cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Oops, this was s'posed to be a private message to Kaz. It DOES have to do with poetry, though. I'm playing with the idea that each of us is born with a part of his brain dedicated to map-making and this part is involved with sensitivity to aesthetic form, such a metrical form in poetry. I discussed it slapdashedly at my blog two days ago. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 9:16 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Proprioception Hi, Kaz I may not have the definition of proprioception right but I would say that it has to do with many things besides the state of muscles with regard to each other and gravity, etc. Similarly, my cartoceptual awareness includes awareness of mucle states that indicate posture, location with respect to gravity (up/down), and left/right, etc.--for instance, sensitivity to the horizon, distances, 3-dimensionality, sound as indicator of distance, and--I believe--has actual maps hard-wired into it. Don't ask for details. I'm as yet very hazy about it. But it's much more than proprioception, but excludes much proprioception. Thanks for asking. Helps sharpen me understanding--and it's reassuring to know SOMEone's interested! all best, Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.kellogg at neu.edu Wed Jun 22 12:33:41 2005 From: d.kellogg at neu.edu (d.kellogg at neu.edu) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:33:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Comic books and poetry Message-ID: Re: poetry and comics: There are Dave Morice's poetry comix (I read them in EXPLOSIVE magazine). And Carol Pierman published a neat book called The Age of Krypton in 1989 (Carnegie-Mellon University Press). Great comic-book cover. David Kellogg Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines Department of English 465 Holmes Hall Northeastern University Boston, MA 02115 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jun 22 13:59:22 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:59:22 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] photo gallery Message-ID: <00a401c57754$1ecae9e0$f0ad3452@ANNY> Here is a photo gallery with our Sam Gwynn, and a couple of pics of Paul Lake, http://www.wcupa.edu/_academics/sch_cas/poetry/tenthannualphotogallery.htm (I will spare you the half hour chat of how I got to it.) Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Wed Jun 22 14:38:23 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Comic books and poetry Message-ID: Does anyone ever remember seeing a comic book that someone made out of The Waste Land? I saw a copy in Grolier's in Cambridge Mass. in 1989 or 90 and haven't seen it since, but every time I teach that poem, I wish I had that comic. In a message dated 6/22/2005 12:33:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, d.kellogg at neu.edu writes: Re: poetry and comics: There are Dave Morice's poetry comix (I read them in EXPLOSIVE magazine). And Carol Pierman published a neat book called The Age of Krypton in 1989 (Carnegie-Mellon University Press). Great comic-book cover. David Kellogg Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines Department of English 465 Holmes Hall Northeastern University Boston, MA 02115 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Jun 22 14:54:11 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:54:11 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] 3. What does it mean to be a poet? (Crisman Cooley) In-Reply-To: <200506221600.j5MG04Re013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200506221600.j5MG04Re013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: What Mr. Cooley is really asking is: What does it mean to be a SUCCESSFUL poet? Answer: If at the end of your career in words, a civilization can be founded or affirmed (or way of life within an ongoing civilization [or justification of God's ways to humanitas (or graceful perspective to hurtful perplexities no one else has put quite as well, or at all ((or deepest insight into esoteric mystery)))]), then, you have succeeded as a mastermind poet. In my opinion, after reading, hearing and studying poetry and interacting with its authors duirng my short while on Planet Earth, the most significant and successful poet of all time in our civilization is Mother Goose. R i c h a r d D i l l o n -- From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Jun 22 15:44:12 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:44:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Comic books and poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave Morice's *Poetry Comics* is still in print, I believe. I bring it to my poetry classes regularly. My favorite is The Adventures of Whit-man, with old Walt flying about America like Superman, while uttering lines from LOG. on 6/22/05 1:38 PM, AlMaginnes at aol.com at AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: Does anyone ever remember seeing a comic book that someone made out of The Waste Land? I saw a copy in Grolier's in Cambridge Mass. in 1989 or 90 and haven't seen it since, but every time I teach that poem, I wish I had that comic. In a message dated 6/22/2005 12:33:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, d.kellogg at neu.edu writes: Re: poetry and comics: There are Dave Morice's poetry comix (I read them in EXPLOSIVE magazine). And Carol Pierman published a neat book called The Age of Krypton in 1989 (Carnegie-Mellon University Press). Great comic-book cover. David Kellogg ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Jun 22 17:44:22 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:44:22 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Comic books and poetry Message-ID: <200506222021.j5MKLY4F245928@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Do you (plural) know about Gary Sullivan's comics? He's starting to build up quite a body of work relating to poets, poems and the like (as well as some on other subjects).... C ---------- From: David Graham To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: [New-Poetry] Comic books and poetry Date: Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 11:44 AM Dave Morice's *Poetry Comics* is still in print, I believe. I bring it to my poetry classes regularly. My favorite is The Adventures of Whit-man, with old Walt flying about America like Superman, while uttering lines from LOG. on 6/22/05 1:38 PM, AlMaginnes at aol.com at AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: Does anyone ever remember seeing a comic book that someone made out of The Waste Land? I saw a copy in Grolier's in Cambridge Mass. in 1989 or 90 and haven't seen it since, but every time I teach that poem, I wish I had that comic. In a message dated 6/22/2005 12:33:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, d.kellogg at neu.edu writes: Re: poetry and comics: There are Dave Morice's poetry comix (I read them in EXPLOSIVE magazine). And Carol Pierman published a neat book called The Age of Krypton in 1989 (Carnegie-Mellon University Press). Great comic-book cover. David Kellogg ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jun 22 17:08:30 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:08:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Comic books and poetry Message-ID: <1e1.3f02801c.2feb2d4e@cs.com> In a message dated 6/22/2005 2:47:37 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > Dave Morice's *Poetry Comics* is still in print, I believe. I bring it to > my poetry classes regularly. > > My favorite is The Adventures of Whit-man, with old Walt flying about > America like Superman, while uttering lines from LOG. > Jack Butler, now primarily known as a novelist, published a long narrative poem about Superman in later life back in the late 60s/early 70s. He published it in Cavalier, a now defunct girlie magazine. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Wed Jun 22 17:09:48 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:09:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Comic books and poetry Message-ID: In a message dated 6/22/2005 5:08:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: In a message dated 6/22/2005 2:47:37 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: Dave Morice's *Poetry Comics* is still in print, I believe. I bring it to my poetry classes regularly. My favorite is The Adventures of Whit-man, with old Walt flying about America like Superman, while uttering lines from LOG. Jack Butler, now primarily known as a novelist, published a long narrative poem about Superman in later life back in the late 60s/early 70s. He published it in Cavalier, a now defunct girlie magazine. That's also in Jack's book Hawk Gumbo. I love that poem and ahve used it in classes before. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Jun 23 03:53:55 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:53:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966) Message-ID: <20c.3846a7c.2febc493@aol.com> "You, Who Was Born..." (1956) You, who was born for poetry?s creation, Do not repeat the sayings of the ancients. Though, maybe, our Poetry, itself, Is just a single beautiful citation. (trans. Yevgeny Bonver) ***************** thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jun 23 07:12:08 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:12:08 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966) References: <20c.3846a7c.2febc493@aol.com> Message-ID: <003f01c577e4$656342e0$74af3452@ANNY> Thank you Thom, here goes another one and a link to remember her: http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/akhmatova/akhmatova_ind.html MUSE 1924 When, in the night, I wait for her, impatient, Life seems to me, as hanging by a thread. What just means liberty, or youth, or approbation, When compared with the gentle piper's tread? And she came in, threw out the mantle's edges, Declined to me with a sincere heed. I say to her, "Did you dictate the Pages Of Hell to Dante?" She answers, "Yes, I did." Translated by Yevgeny Bonver, August, 2000 Edited by Orit Bonver, August 2000 From: Thom424 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 9:53 AM "You, Who Was Born..." (1956) You, who was born for poetry?s creation, Do not repeat the sayings of the ancients. Though, maybe, our Poetry, itself, Is just a single beautiful citation. (trans. Yevgeny Bonver) ***************** thom tammaro moorhead, mn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jun 23 10:30:58 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:30:58 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Madison Jones' Garden of Innocence Message-ID: <003101c57800$2c805c30$34ad3452@ANNY> > From: Jan Nordby Gretlund [mailto:jng at litcul.sdu.dk] > Sent: woensdag 22 juni 2005 13:58 Madison Jones' Garden of Innocence ed. Jan Nordby Gretlund, University Press of Southern Denmark, 2005. ISBN: 87-7674-001-3 Essays by Jewel Spears Brooker, George Garrett, Richard Gray, Jan Nordby Gretlund, Madison Jones, Lewis A. Lawson, David Madden, and Hans H. Skei. Plus interviews and a Madison Jones bibliography, 207 pp. $34.95. U.S.: www.isbs.com Europe: press at forlag.sdu.dk Madison Jones is the author of eleven novels, among them The Innocent, An Exile (film: I Walk the Line), A Cry of Absence, Season of the Strangler, and Nashville 1864, winner of the T.S. Eliot Award. Jones' latest novel, Herod's Wife, appeared in 2003. Madison Jones is a central figure in American literature, but paradoxically not well-known. According to Madison Smartt Bell, William Hoffman, and Lee Smith, his novels are lessons in the possibility of the immediate. Jones' influence on the early Cormac McCarthy is obvious, and others have been influenced by his settings, ideas, and style. Larry Brown in Joe to be sure, but also William Gay in Provinces of Night, Robert Morgan in Gap Creek, Charles Frazier in Cold Mountain, and Ron Rash in One Foot in Eden. The Jones heritage is 'an echo in the reader's mind' of something we are not allowed to forget about our existence, something dark, sinister, relentless, inexplicably evil, and radically tragic. ____________________________________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jun 23 12:52:46 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:52:46 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kerstin Schmidt : The Theater of Transformation Message-ID: <004c01c57813$fb998060$34ad3452@ANNY> > From: Kerstin Schmidt [mailto:KerstinSchmidt at uni-bayreuth.de] > Sent: 23 juni 2005 15:40 Postmodern Studies 37 The Theater of Transformation Postmodernism in American Drama Kerstin Schmidt Amsterdam, New York, NY, 2005, 230 pp. ISBN: 90-420-1895-X EUR 46 / US$ 62 The Theater of Transformation: Postmodernism in American Drama offers a fresh and innovative reading of the contemporary experimental American theater scene and navigates through the contested and contentious relationship between postmodernism and contemporary drama. This book addresses gender and class as well as racial issues in the context of a theoretical discussion of dramatic texts, textuality, and performance. Transformation is contemporary drama's answer to the questions of postmodernism and a major technique in the development of a postmodern language for the stage. In order to demonstrate the multi-faceted nature of the postmodern theater of transformation, this study draws on a wide range of plays: from early experimental plays of the 1960s by Jean-Claude van Itallie through feminist plays by Megan Terry and Rochelle Owens to more recent drama by the African-American playwright Suzan-Lori Parks. The Theater of Transformation: Postmodernism in American Drama is written for anyone interested in contemporary American drama and theater as well as in postmodernism and contemporary literary theory. It appeals even more broadly to a readership intrigued by the ubiquitous aspects of popular culture, by feminism and ethnicity, and by issues pertaining to the so-called 'society of spectacle' and the study of contemporary media. Kerstin Schmidt is currently Assistant Professor of American Studies and Intercultural Anglophone Studies in the Department of English at the University of Bayreuth, Germany. _____________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 23 17:30:48 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:30:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plea for Ryskamp In-Reply-To: <004c01c57813$fb998060$34ad3452@ANNY> References: <004c01c57813$fb998060$34ad3452@ANNY> Message-ID: <42BB2A08.4070101@ix.netcom.com> I've just spent the afternoon re-reading John Ryskamp's poem, The Twenty-First Century, http://flashpointmag.web.aplus.net/ryskamp.htm that appeared in the Joyce/Zukofsky issue of FlashPoint. John has expressed to me a desire to see his poem in print, not just on line and I've contacted a couple of people who never responded perhaps more because of their attitude toward me than a careful and considered reading of John's poem. Personally, I found John's poem to be exceptional and think it might actually make the reputation of some otherwise run of the mill press. The poem, chapbook length, has received about 3000 hits online. One reader, who is no friend of mine commented, "I have to admit you've hit a home run with Ryskamp." If someone were to show a desire to print Ryskamp's work, they need not mention me or FlashPoint. I would simply turn your stated intentions over to him and let you two as poet and publisher work it out. I desire nothing more than to see Ryskamp's poem in print. And maybe bragging rights at having found such a magnificent work in such an unlikely place. FIZZ aka Carlo Parcelli From cc at opus0.com Thu Jun 23 20:36:09 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:36:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: What does it mean to be a poet? In-Reply-To: <200506231600.j5NG04Re019950@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Thank you Richard, that is exactly what I mean! It is no easy task I guess to get serious answers from poets on what it means to be one, so I doubly appreciate your response. I wonder if this would be different for policemen or welders or hog farmers. At any rate, I doubt these would be interested in graceful perspectives on hurtful perplexities, etc., as you've eloquently described-- but who knows? Perhaps the concerns are not unique to poets, and may be of equal concern to rag-and-boners, coopers, lumpers or darners. There is a lady who comes round to my house selling broccoli and never fails to ask about when the papayas will be ripening. I think we should qualify the fact that Mother (it will seem presumptuous for me to employ her first name, but I'll risk it) was a lyric poet. If we wonder what epic she would have produced, perhaps we should consider Wonderland-- though, it provides an incomplete answer to any of myriad questions that spring to mind, such as: what happens after the dish runs away with the spoon? > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:54:11 +0800 > From: ELEMENOPE Productions > Subject: [New-Poetry] 3. What does it mean to be a poet? (Crisman > Cooley) > > What Mr. Cooley is really asking is: What does it mean to be a > SUCCESSFUL poet? > > Answer: If at the end of your career in words, a civilization can be > founded or affirmed (or way of life within an ongoing civilization > [or justification of God's ways to humanitas (or graceful perspective > to hurtful perplexities no one else has put quite as well, or at all > ((or deepest insight into esoteric mystery)))]), then, you have > succeeded as a mastermind poet. > > In my opinion, after reading, hearing and studying poetry and > interacting with its authors duirng my short while on Planet Earth, > the most significant and successful poet of all time in our > civilization is Mother Goose. > > R i c h a r d D i l l o n > From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 20:53:31 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:53:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Backchannel Me Message-ID: <731bb17a050623175361df8a19@mail.gmail.com> If you're interested in critiquing a poem for me. It's new, brand new. I'm exhausted from writing it, and I want to see if my labor has paid off. Jeff -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 21:40:47 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:40:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Backchannel Me In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050623175361df8a19@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a050623175361df8a19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a050623184059f6f0be@mail.gmail.com> Okay, I've got it covered now, thanks to the Mole. Jeff On 6/23/05, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > If you're interested in critiquing a poem for me. It's new, brand new. I'm > exhausted from writing it, and I want to see if my labor has paid off. > Jeff > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 11:19:46 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:19:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation Message-ID: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> Intersting article about a new NEA program, turning poetry recitation into a spelling-bee like contest. http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/newscanfield.htm Thoughts? Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 24 11:50:35 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:50:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003d01c578d4$767f9600$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Interesting article about a new NEA program, turning poetry recitation into a spelling-bee like contest. http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/newscanfield.htm It's certainly better to give high school students and their teachers money than to take a chance on some poet's getting it. Especially a poet doing something interesting. --Bob G, as predictable as ever -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Jun 24 11:58:28 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:58:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Help stamp out rote learning. Hal Actual Product May Vary from Photos Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ On Jun 24, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Intersting article about a new NEA program, turning poetry recitation > into a spelling-bee like contest. > ? > http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/newscanfield.htm > ? > Thoughts? > ? > Jeff Newberry > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog:??http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > ?_______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From hruggier at localnet.com Fri Jun 24 12:43:07 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:43:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004001c578db$cd81bd50$50089942@Helen> Wow. I just dearly love how actors read po-ems. They so delightfully ham them up over enunciating and like that. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 11:19 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation Intersting article about a new NEA program, turning poetry recitation into a spelling-bee like contest. http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/newscanfield.htm Thoughts? Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------- My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jun 24 13:54:53 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:54:53 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> <004001c578db$cd81bd50$50089942@Helen> Message-ID: <004601c578e5$d34f4a40$b8af3252@ANNY> I agree, a little pompous misery. Imagine in Italian_ the inside walls inflate with the echoing vowelling cor- (runn) -respond- ing sounds. Cheers, Anny for Jeff, it seems they are trying to bring back kids to reading, the initial idea is worth a moment of thought. From: Helen Ruggieri Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 6:43 PM Wow. I just dearly love how actors read po-ems. They so delightfully ham them up over enunciating and like that. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 11:19 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation Intersting article about a new NEA program, turning poetry recitation into a spelling-bee like contest. http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/newscanfield.htm Thoughts? Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jun 24 14:27:57 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:27:57 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] burningpress.org Message-ID: <006d01c578ea$72207fa0$b8af3252@ANNY> It seems that I have no access to the CybpherAnthology of discontiguous Literatures http://www.burningpress.org/va/AuthorIndex.html or to www.burningpress.org is this only my problem or is the page maybe down? Thank you, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Jun 24 14:36:07 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:36:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hamilton Stone Review, Issue 6, Summer 2005, Now Online! In-Reply-To: <004601c578e5$d34f4a40$b8af3252@ANNY> References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> <004001c578db$cd81bd50$50089942@Helen> <004601c578e5$d34f4a40$b8af3252@ANNY> Message-ID: <2eca8f16fd8394e9c5d6d0f4e8b65326@earthlink.net> Hamilton Stone Review, Issue 6, Summer 2005, Now Online! Featuring fiction by Pat MacEnulty, Ramsey Wilkens, and Masha Zager and poetry by Gene Frumkin, Amy King, Kenneth Pobo, Joseph Somoza, David Hopes, Stephen Vincent, Bob Marcacci, Harriet Zinnes, Kerry O'Keefe, Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino, Eileen Tabios, Frederick Pollack, and David Howard. http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr6.html Submissions to the Hamilton Stone Review At this time, the Hamilton Stone Review is not open to unsolicited fiction submissions, but will be taking unsolicited poetry submissions until Sept. 15, 2005, for Issue #7, which will be out in October 2005. Poetry submissions should go directly to Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net. PLEASE SEND THIS ALONG TO OTHERS From snakecharmer at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 16:16:58 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:16:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation In-Reply-To: <004601c578e5$d34f4a40$b8af3252@ANNY> References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> <004001c578db$cd81bd50$50089942@Helen> <004601c578e5$d34f4a40$b8af3252@ANNY> Message-ID: <33abf27505062413166bdff285@mail.gmail.com> So, let me get this right: The majority of poetry contests award less than $500 for a poem. So if I'm really lucky, I might get a couple hundred bucks for writing a really, truly amazing new poem. But a 15-year-old can recite a poem and get $1000. For correct inflection, and for--wait, let me get the exact wording--"how well they appeared to understand the meaning of the poem". Not an actual understanding, mind you. No question-and-answer session at the end. Just how well they appeared, from the recitation, to understand it. Well. Don't get me wrong, it's great that they're trying to promote the reading and (I think?) understanding of poetry. And I'm all for getting back to the old days of memorization and recitation, especially of poetry and plays. Every 18-year-old graduate should be able to recite at least one Shakespearean soliloquy and at least one poem on top of that. But I'm feeling despicably old and bitter right now. I've gotta side with Bob on this one. On 6/24/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I agree, a little pompous misery. Imagine in Italian_ the inside walls > inflate with the echoing vowelling cor- (runn) -respond- ing sounds. > Cheers, Anny > for Jeff, it seems they are trying to bring back kids to reading, the > initial idea is worth a moment of thought. > > *From:* Helen Ruggieri > *Sent:* Friday, June 24, 2005 6:43 PM > > Wow. > I just dearly love how actors read po-ems. They so delightfully ham them > up over enunciating and like that. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jeff Newberry > *To:* NewPoetry > *Sent:* Friday, June 24, 2005 11:19 AM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation > > Intersting article about a new NEA program, turning poetry recitation into > a spelling-bee like contest. > http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/newscanfield.htm > Thoughts? > Jeff Newberry > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 16:19:59 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:19:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] burningpress.org In-Reply-To: <006d01c578ea$72207fa0$b8af3252@ANNY> References: <006d01c578ea$72207fa0$b8af3252@ANNY> Message-ID: <33abf27505062413191ba89fc0@mail.gmail.com> Anny: It's not just your problem. I get "forbidden: you don't have access" pages too. On 6/24/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > It seems that I have no access to the CybpherAnthology of discontiguous > Literatures > http://www.burningpress.org/va/AuthorIndex.html > or to www.burningpress.org > is this only my problem or is the page maybe down? > Thank you, > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jun 24 16:38:34 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:38:34 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] burningpress.org References: <006d01c578ea$72207fa0$b8af3252@ANNY> <33abf27505062413191ba89fc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007701c578fc$b17b80c0$b8af3252@ANNY> Donna Casinghino_ you have no reference on google. Your email address: snakecharmer at gmail.com SNAKE CHARMER am I reading properly? Underlined by your quotation at the end of the message: "Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't." In other words, who are you? ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Casinghino To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] burningpress.org Anny: It's not just your problem. I get "forbidden: you don't have access" pages too. On 6/24/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: It seems that I have no access to the CybpherAnthology of discontiguous Literatures http://www.burningpress.org/va/AuthorIndex.html or to www.burningpress.org is this only my problem or is the page maybe down? Thank you, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 24 17:12:51 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com><004001c578db$cd81bd50$50089942@Helen><004601c578e5$d34f4a40$b8af3252@ANNY> <33abf27505062413166bdff285@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00be01c57901$7d77f970$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> So, let me get this right: The majority of poetry contests award less than $500 for a poem. So if I'm really lucky, I might get a couple hundred bucks for writing a really, truly amazing new poem. But a 15-year-old can recite a poem and get $1000. For correct inflection, and for--wait, let me get the exact wording--"how well they appeared to understand the meaning of the poem". Not an actual understanding, mind you. No question-and-answer session at the end. Just how well they appeared, from the recitation, to understand it. Well. Don't get me wrong, it's great that they're trying to promote the reading and (I think?) understanding of poetry. And I'm all for getting back to the old days of memorization and recitation, especially of poetry and plays. Every 18-year-old graduate should be able to recite at least one Shakespearean soliloquy and at least one poem on top of that. But I'm feeling despicably old and bitter right now. I've gotta side with Bob on this one. Better watch out, Donna--that's at least twice now that you've sided with me. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snakecharmer at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 21:17:20 2005 From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:17:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation In-Reply-To: <00be01c57901$7d77f970$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> <004001c578db$cd81bd50$50089942@Helen> <004601c578e5$d34f4a40$b8af3252@ANNY> <33abf27505062413166bdff285@mail.gmail.com> <00be01c57901$7d77f970$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <33abf27505062418172c10e3bd@mail.gmail.com> Bob: Uh-oh. Next thing you know, I'll be writing concrete poetry and insulting the Wilshberia crowd. I can disagree with you on some points and still be a fellow curmudgeon. :) On 6/24/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > > So, let me get this right: The majority of poetry contests award less than > $500 for a poem. So if I'm really lucky, I might get a couple hundred bucks > for writing a really, truly amazing new poem. > > But a 15-year-old can recite a poem and get $1000. For correct inflection, > and for--wait, let me get the exact wording--"how well they appeared to > understand the meaning of the poem". Not an actual understanding, mind you. > No question-and-answer session at the end. Just how well they appeared, > from the recitation, to understand it. > > Well. Don't get me wrong, it's great that they're trying to promote the > reading and (I think?) understanding of poetry. And I'm all for getting back > to the old days of memorization and recitation, especially of poetry and > plays. Every 18-year-old graduate should be able to recite at least one > Shakespearean soliloquy and at least one poem on top of that. > > But I'm feeling despicably old and bitter right now. I've gotta side with > Bob on this one. > > Better watch out, Donna--that's at least twice now that you've sided with > me. > --Bob > -- ------------------------------------------------- Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kazmandu at aol.com Fri Jun 24 22:01:20 2005 From: kazmandu at aol.com (kazmandu at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:01:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: what it means to be a poet In-Reply-To: <200506241600.j5OG04Re027626@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200506241600.j5OG04Re027626@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <8C74740EA8ADF4C-36C-C96@mblk-r33.sysops.aol.com> Crisman, I think the reason there is little response to the question "what does it mean to be a poet?" is that the question is too large. Me ? personally I know I am an artist because I have personally sacrificed the majority of my love-life and finances to pursue something that has returned nothing to me but delusions of grandeur. I believe only a muse-possessed artist lives that kind of existence. Kaz http://www.kazmaslanka.com Message: 3 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:36:09 -0500 From: "Crisman Cooley" Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: What does it mean to be a poet? To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you Richard, that is exactly what I mean! It is no easy task I guess to get serious answers from poets on what it means to be one, so I doubly appreciate your response. I wonder if this would be different for policemen or welders or hog farmers. At any rate, I doubt these would be interested in graceful perspectives on hurtful perplexities, etc., as you've eloquently described-- but who knows? Perhaps the concerns are not unique to poets, and may be of equal concern to rag-and-boners, coopers, lumpers or darners. There is a lady who comes round to my house selling broccoli and never fails to ask about when the papayas will be ripening. I think we should qualify the fact that Mother (it will seem presumptuous for me to employ her first name, but I'll risk it) was a lyric poet. If we wonder what epic she would have produced, perhaps we should consider Wonderland-- though, it provides an incomplete answer to any of myriad questions that spring to mind, such as: what happens after the dish runs away with the spoon? > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:54:11 +0800 > From: ELEMENOPE Productions > Subject: [New-Poetry] 3. What does it mean to be a poet? (Crisman > Cooley) > > What Mr. Cooley is really asking is: What does it mean to be a > SUCCESSFUL poet? > > Answer: If at the end of your career in words, a civilization can be > founded or affirmed (or way of life within an ongoing civilization > [or justification of God's ways to humanitas (or graceful perspective > to hurtful perplexities no one else has put quite as well, or at all > ((or deepest insight into esoteric mystery)))]), then, you have > succeeded as a mastermind poet. > > In my opinion, after reading, hearing and studying poetry and > interacting with its authors duirng my short while on Planet Earth, > the most significant and successful poet of all time in our > civilization is Mother Goose. > > R i c h a r d D i l l o n > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jun 25 09:44:47 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:44:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> <004001c578db$cd81bd50$50089942@Helen> Message-ID: <00ef01c5798c$0fbd1740$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> I did a poetry workshop for high school students just recently, sponsored by a local community activist organization. The workshop was capped by a public reading of the kids' work, which was a fundraiser for the organization, and they were selling tickets, so they got the idea of having actors or recognized poets from the area reading the kids' work. I was dubious, but the kids loved the idea, and it turned out to work really well. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Helen Ruggieri To: Jeff Newberry ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &Views Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation Wow. I just dearly love how actors read po-ems. They so delightfully ham them up over enunciating and like that. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 11:19 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation Intersting article about a new NEA program, turning poetry recitation into a spelling-bee like contest. http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/newscanfield.htm Thoughts? Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jun 25 10:25:19 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:25:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation In-Reply-To: <00ef01c5798c$0fbd1740$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> <004001c578db$cd81bd50$50089942@Helen> <00ef01c5798c$0fbd1740$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Actors--a bad lot. You never know who they are. Hal Art & Plastic Surgery Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ On Jun 25, 2005, at 9:44 AM, The Old Mole wrote: > I did a poetry workshop for high school students just recently, > sponsored by a local community activist organization. The workshop was > capped by a public reading of the kids' work, which was a fundraiser > for the organization, and they were?selling tickets,?so they got the > idea of having actors or recognized poets from the area reading the > kids' work. I was dubious, but the kids loved the idea, and it turned > out to work really well. > ? > ? > ? > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Helen Ruggieri >> To: Jeff Newberry ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &Views >> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 12:43 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation >> >> Wow.? >> ? >> I just dearly love how actors read po-ems.? They so delightfully ham >> them up over enunciating and like that. >> ? >> ? >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jeff Newberry >>> To: NewPoetry >>> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 11:19 AM >>> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation >>> >>> Intersting article about a new NEA program, turning poetry >>> recitation into a spelling-bee like contest. >>> ? >>> http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/newscanfield.htm >>> ? >>> Thoughts? >>> ? >>> Jeff Newberry >>> >>> -- >>> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >>> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz >>> >>> Blog:??http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ >>> ? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and >> corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail >> from www.choicemailfree.com. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Thom424 at aol.com Sat Jun 25 10:34:02 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:34:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation Message-ID: <9f.61c7fe47.2feec55a@aol.com> too bad we have to turn this into a competition, like everything else in america, and especially at such a young age. there's a belief that competition produces greater products or end results. what is produces or results in is simply the choices of the judges. thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jun 25 11:40:23 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:40:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com><004001c578db$cd81bd50$50089942@Helen><00ef01c5798c$0fbd1740$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <001e01c5799c$36c052c0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Or where they've been. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation Actors--a bad lot. You never know who they are. Hal Art & Plastic Surgery Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ On Jun 25, 2005, at 9:44 AM, The Old Mole wrote: > I did a poetry workshop for high school students just recently, sponsored > by a local community activist organization. The workshop was capped by a > public reading of the kids' work, which was a fundraiser for the > organization, and they were selling tickets, so they got the idea of > having actors or recognized poets from the area reading the kids' work. I > was dubious, but the kids loved the idea, and it turned out to work really > well. > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Helen Ruggieri >> To: Jeff Newberry ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &Views >> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 12:43 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation >> >> Wow. I just dearly love how actors read po-ems. They so delightfully ham >> them up over enunciating and like that. >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jeff Newberry >>> To: NewPoetry >>> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 11:19 AM >>> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation >>> >>> Intersting article about a new NEA program, turning poetry recitation >>> into a spelling-bee like contest. >>> >>> http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/newscanfield.htm >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> Jeff Newberry >>> >>> -- >>> "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. >>> It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz >>> >>> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and >> corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from >> www.choicemailfree.com. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 14:27:23 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:27:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Recitation In-Reply-To: <001e01c5799c$36c052c0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <731bb17a05062408193591be3e@mail.gmail.com> <004001c578db$cd81bd50$50089942@Helen> <00ef01c5798c$0fbd1740$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <001e01c5799c$36c052c0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <731bb17a05062511277f312371@mail.gmail.com> So keep them out of yer ear. Jeff Newberry On 6/25/05, The Old Mole wrote: > > Or where they've been. > > From: "*Halvard Johnson*" > Actors--a bad lot. You never know > who they are. > > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Sat Jun 25 15:43:39 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 03:43:39 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: what it means to be a poet (kazmandu@aol.com) In-Reply-To: <200506251600.j5PG04Re001954@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200506251600.j5PG04Re001954@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > What Mr. Cooley is really asking is: What does it mean to be a > SUCCESSFUL poet? In my view, of course, he isn't asking: "What's it like to be a poet?" >Crisman, > I think the reason there is little response to the question >"what does it mean to be a poet?" is that the question is too large. >Me ? personally I know I am an artist because I have personally >sacrificed the majority of my love-life and finances to pursue >something that has returned nothing to me but delusions of grandeur. >I believe only a muse-possessed artist lives that kind of existence. > Kaz I have updated my initial response to Mr. Cooley which led to my assertion that _Mother Goose_ is the foremost poet in our tongue. There will be more to come from me on both this subject and author in a forthcoming post. R i c h a r d D i l l o n > >Message: 3 >Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:36:09 -0500 >From: "Crisman Cooley" >Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: What does it mean to be a poet? >To: >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Thank you Richard, that is exactly what I mean! It is no easy task I guess >to get serious answers from poets on what it means to be one, so I doubly >appreciate your response. I wonder if this would be different for policemen >or welders or hog farmers. At any rate, I doubt these would be interested >in graceful perspectives on hurtful perplexities, etc., as you've eloquently >described-- but who knows? Perhaps the concerns are not unique to poets, >and may be of equal concern to rag-and-boners, coopers, lumpers or darners. >There is a lady who comes round to my house selling broccoli and never fails >to ask about when the papayas will be ripening. > >I think we should qualify the fact that Mother (it will seem presumptuous >for me to employ her first name, but I'll risk it) was a lyric poet. If we >wonder what epic she would have produced, perhaps we should consider >Wonderland-- though, it provides an incomplete answer to any of myriad >questions that spring to mind, such as: what happens after the dish runs >away with the spoon? > >> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:54:11 +0800 >> From: ELEMENOPE Productions >> Subject: [New-Poetry] 3. What does it mean to be a poet? (Crisman >> Cooley) >> > > What Mr. Cooley is really asking is: What does it mean to be a > > SUCCESSFUL poet? > > Answer: If at the end of your career in words of inimitable, >irreplaceable originality which are then recited on the lips of >young and old to times immemorial, a civilization can be founded or >affirmed (or way of life within an ongoing civilization [or >justification of God's ways to humanitas (or graceful perspective to >hurtful perplexities no one else has put quite as well, or at all >((or deepest insight into esoteric mystery and love in all its >ramifications)))]), then, you have succeeded as a mastermind poet. > > In my opinion, after reading, hearing and studying poetry and > interacting with its authors during my short while on Planet Earth, >the most significant and successful poet of all time in our > civilization is: Mother Goose. > > R i c h a r d D i l l o n -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ATambellini01 at aol.com Sat Jun 25 19:06:27 2005 From: ATambellini01 at aol.com (ATambellini01 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:06:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: what it means to be a poet (kazmandu@aol.com) Message-ID: <12e.60abcfc6.2fef3d73@aol.com> Kaz, finally I read something that I could relate to...no family, no money, half of my work lost or destroyed...am 75 and I still know I had no other choice but to be the artist. I was enrolled in art school at the age of 10 and started to write poetry at the age of 16 ...what else did I know ...there was no choice other than the one that was made for me...for to be an artist means ot answer a HIGHER calling. Aldo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 19:41:35 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:41:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I Couldn't Be Anything Else . . . Message-ID: <731bb17a05062516416c92c90b@mail.gmail.com> . . . so I became a writer. This idea is simply a myth, according to David Galef: http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/galef.htm Thoughts? Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jun 25 20:19:22 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:19:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I Couldn't Be Anything Else . . . References: <731bb17a05062516416c92c90b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007b01c579e4$b4220540$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> To: NewPoetry Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 7:41 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] I Couldn't Be Anything Else . . . . . . so I became a writer. This idea is simply a myth, according to David Galef: http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/galef.htm Actually, that's not what he said. He said that "I had to write-I wasn't fit for anything else" is a myth. I don't know who ever said that. Galef also said that the cliche that "Creative writing can't be taught" is a myth. But he's an academic who runs writing workshops--and he wrote all this tripe for Poets & Writers, which indicates the level he's writing, and thinking, at. It's creative talent, of course, that can't be taught. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 26 05:01:48 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:01:48 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] I Couldn't Be Anything Else . . . References: <731bb17a05062516416c92c90b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005701c57a2d$af782210$acaa3252@ANNY> quoting from the link provided by Jeff: Novelist Peter DeVries once noted that he wrote only when he was inspired, but that he made sure he was inspired at nine o'clock every morning. and this: In fact, good art seems to require at least two impulses: an anal-expulsive impulse to be disorderly and creative, and an anal-retentive urge to complete the work, to arrange and sort it. To put it another, more pungent, way, using the same metaphor: Artists are in love with their own shit, but their skill is to make others love it too. _Giulio Turcato (1912 - 1995; founder of Forma 1 together with Accardi, Attardi, Consagra, Dorazio, Guerrini, Perilli and Sanfilippo), used to ask his wife to lock him inside his studio -_ and many more other quotes worth quoting, thanks for this good read, a happy productive Sunday, Anny From: Jeff Newberry Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 1:41 AM . . . so I became a writer. This idea is simply a myth, according to David Galef: http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/galef.htm Thoughts? Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sun Jun 26 12:35:31 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:35:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Yasusada Encyclopedia entries Message-ID: http://www.explore-biography.com/biographies/A/Araki_Yasusada.html I was recently alerted to this. I have no idea who wrote it. Unfortunately, the entry (a near copy of one at Wikipedia Encyclopedia) is full of inaccuracies, carried over from early articles. It wasn't anyone on this list who wrote it, was it? Kent From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 26 12:50:50 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:50:50 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] I Couldn't Be Anything Else . . . References: <731bb17a05062516416c92c90b@mail.gmail.com> <007b01c579e4$b4220540$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00cf01c57a6f$35a1c580$79a83252@ANNY> I also agree that talent cannot be taught, it can be mimicked very well to the point that people think it is talent, but it is only yours if you have it. And going back to David Galef, to have talent does not mean anything, you need the means to get it out. And those means are _forged (I like the word, sorry)_ through daily practice. Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: Jeff Newberry ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 2:19 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] I Couldn't Be Anything Else . . . To: NewPoetry Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 7:41 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] I Couldn't Be Anything Else . . . . . . so I became a writer. This idea is simply a myth, according to David Galef: http://www.pw.org/mag/0507/galef.htm Actually, that's not what he said. He said that "I had to write-I wasn't fit for anything else" is a myth. I don't know who ever said that. Galef also said that the cliche that "Creative writing can't be taught" is a myth. But he's an academic who runs writing workshops--and he wrote all this tripe for Poets & Writers, which indicates the level he's writing, and thinking, at. It's creative talent, of course, that can't be taught. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 26 12:57:07 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:57:07 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Yasusada Encyclopedia entries References: Message-ID: <00d401c57a70$168be580$79a83252@ANNY> Someone who does not like you very much, and does not write in good English. You can ask the webmaster to it take off, s/he might even tell you who sent it, and maybe write your own. Anny From: "Kent Johnson" Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 6:35 PM > http://www.explore-biography.com/biographies/A/Araki_Yasusada.html > > I was recently alerted to this. I have no idea who wrote it. > Unfortunately, the entry (a near copy of one at Wikipedia Encyclopedia) > is full of inaccuracies, carried over from early articles. > > It wasn't anyone on this list who wrote it, was it? > > Kent > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jun 26 13:36:55 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:36:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I Couldn't Be Anything Else . . . References: <731bb17a05062516416c92c90b@mail.gmail.com><007b01c579e4$b4220540$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00cf01c57a6f$35a1c580$79a83252@ANNY> Message-ID: <005101c57a75$a6530c70$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> . . I also agree that talent cannot be taught, it can be mimicked very well to the point that people think it is talent, but it is only yours if you have it. And going back to David Galef, to have talent does not mean anything, you need the means to get it out. And those means are _forged (I like the word, sorry)_ through daily practice. Anny How about REGULAR practice. (Tuedays can be skipped!) --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jun 26 13:48:54 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:48:54 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] I Couldn't Be Anything Else . . . References: <731bb17a05062516416c92c90b@mail.gmail.com><007b01c579e4$b4220540$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00cf01c57a6f$35a1c580$79a83252@ANNY> <005101c57a75$a6530c70$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <012601c57a77$51f82140$79a83252@ANNY> Agreed, well everybody can choose their own day off, Anny, the teacher (what a terrible part) From: Bob Grumman Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 7:36 PM . . . I also agree that talent cannot be taught, it can be mimicked very well to the point that people think it is talent, but it is only yours if you have it. And going back to David Galef, to have talent does not mean anything, you need the means to get it out. And those means are _forged (I like the word, sorry)_ through daily practice. Anny How about REGULAR practice. (Tuedays can be skipped!) --Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lesrho at fullnet.net Sun Jun 26 15:22:55 2005 From: lesrho at fullnet.net (LesRho) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:22:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Be Grateful For Life Message-ID: <003d01c57a85$8bf649e0$0100007f@retiredud69srz> The Why and How of Life It's not all about how long we live But how well we live so long It's not about what we've got to give But what we do right or wrong Life doesn't always serve what we like It often asks for more than we have More than a stroll; it can be a hike As a sore muscle, it may need a salve Often told that we shouldn't look back Nor fret about how things could have been Sometimes, expecting a raise, we get the sack No matter we usuallly expect to win A setback in life doesn't always mean we lose We sometimes just don't get what we expect We seldom get all the things we choose We should let our creator be the one to perfect Les Easley SFO A Franciscan Poet Just returned from a trip to California and Seattle; there's still enough misery out there on the freeways to last until I get back. I don't mind paying road tolls here in Oklahoma, I only saw three cars on my way home at 3:30 AM. That could be why our dimmer switches never wear out. Bright lights look welcome to weary drivers it appears. LE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 26 15:57:07 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:57:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Yasusada Encyclopedia entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42BF0893.9000201@ix.netcom.com> Many are pissed at the coy, sneering careerism and tortured aesthetics that have been attached to the Yasusada nonsense. And given the atmosphere of deception surrounding the works who could blame the author of the article for wanting to contribute to the fraud even as some essentials are still kept hidden by the perpetrators of that fraud. What could you possibly expect? And how in hell can you seriously chastise someone for picking up the cudgel. I'm envious and I applaud his integrity. Kent. Why the fuck don't you go to the people at EXPLORE and tell them the real truth. They'd be the first to hear it. FIZZ Kent Johnson wrote: >http://www.explore-biography.com/biographies/A/Araki_Yasusada.html > >I was recently alerted to this. I have no idea who wrote it. >Unfortunately, the entry (a near copy of one at Wikipedia Encyclopedia) >is full of inaccuracies, carried over from early articles. > >It wasn't anyone on this list who wrote it, was it? > >Kent >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 26 16:06:48 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:06:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Yasusada Encyclopedia entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42BF0AD8.1060608@ix.netcom.com> Sorry. I just busted a gut again reading Kent complain about "innaccuracies." This is very funny. Maybe Gabe could write a 6000 word essay on authorial theory. Oh! Oh! FIZZ Kent Johnson wrote: >http://www.explore-biography.com/biographies/A/Araki_Yasusada.html > >I was recently alerted to this. I have no idea who wrote it. >Unfortunately, the entry (a near copy of one at Wikipedia Encyclopedia) >is full of inaccuracies, carried over from early articles. > >It wasn't anyone on this list who wrote it, was it? > >Kent >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 26 17:41:56 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:41:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Yasusada Encyclopedia entries In-Reply-To: <42BF0893.9000201@ix.netcom.com> References: <42BF0893.9000201@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <42BF2124.2000404@ix.netcom.com> Or as my wife and Joe Brennan both suggested--- Still good fun. FIZZ Alphaville wrote: > Many are pissed at the coy, sneering careerism and tortured aesthetics > that have been attached to the Yasusada nonsense. And given the > atmosphere of deception surrounding the works who could blame the > author of the article for wanting to contribute to the fraud even as > some essentials are still kept hidden by the perpetrators of that > fraud. What could you possibly expect? And how in hell can you > seriously chastise someone for picking up the cudgel. I'm envious and > I applaud his integrity. > > Kent. Why the fuck don't you go to the people at EXPLORE and tell them > the real truth. They'd be the first to hear it. FIZZ > > Kent Johnson wrote: > >> http://www.explore-biography.com/biographies/A/Araki_Yasusada.html >> I was recently alerted to this. I have no idea who wrote it. >> Unfortunately, the entry (a near copy of one at Wikipedia Encyclopedia) >> is full of inaccuracies, carried over from early articles. >> It wasn't anyone on this list who wrote it, was it? >> >> Kent >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sun Jun 26 18:03:25 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:03:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] epigram for Carlo Message-ID: Carlo, I just knew it was you who wrote that! Say, did I ever show this epigram, from the forthcoming Epigramititis: 111 Living American Poets? Most are on minor poets, but I included a few great ones, like you. Cheers, fella. You always bring a chuckle hereabouts: Carlo Pacelli He's not much on the page, to be sure, but he evidently thinks he's Ezra Pound. Like the latter, he grows nuttier as he enters old age. Poor man* See him rattle, as he reads this epigram, the grating of his little cage. * From poetry at wildhoneypress.com Sun Jun 26 18:11:27 2005 From: poetry at wildhoneypress.com (wild honey press) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:11:27 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] epigram for Carlo References: Message-ID: <003c01c57a9c$032d1460$286bdac3@computer> just to concur in that I too think Carlo is great. Though I don't know who wrote the Enc. ent. best Randolph ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:03 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] epigram for Carlo > Carlo, > > I just knew it was you who wrote that! > > Say, did I ever show this epigram, from the forthcoming Epigramititis: 111 Living American Poets? Most are on minor poets, but I included a few great ones, like you. Cheers, fella. You always bring a chuckle hereabouts: > > > Carlo Pacelli > > He's not much on the page, > to be sure, but he evidently > thinks he's Ezra Pound. Like > the latter, he grows nuttier > as he enters old age. Poor man* > See him rattle, as he reads this > epigram, the grating of his little cage. > > * > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 26 19:30:00 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:30:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] epigram for Carlo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42BF3A78.7030906@ix.netcom.com> Finally, you're trying your hand at poetry instead of just talking about it or stealing it. I wish it had been me written that entry. And can't say I haven't contemplated such. But you just weren't worth the time. The ambition to match Pound! FIZZ Kent Johnson wrote: >Carlo, > >I just knew it was you who wrote that! > >Say, did I ever show this epigram, from the forthcoming Epigramititis: 111 Living American Poets? Most are on minor poets, but I included a few great ones, like you. Cheers, fella. You always bring a chuckle hereabouts: > > >Carlo Pacelli > >He's not much on the page, >to be sure, but he evidently >thinks he's Ezra Pound. Like >the latter, he grows nuttier >as he enters old age. Poor man* >See him rattle, as he reads this >epigram, the grating of his little cage. > >* > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 26 19:38:27 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:38:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] epigram for Carlo In-Reply-To: <003c01c57a9c$032d1460$286bdac3@computer> References: <003c01c57a9c$032d1460$286bdac3@computer> Message-ID: <42BF3C73.9040109@ix.netcom.com> Randolph, It weren't me that posted the thing, but Kent's already got the little engine in motion again and that's all that matters. Did you ever get my email on Ryskamp's "Twenty First Century." It really it IS a great work and would do both of you great credit as a Wild Honey Press publication. I'd certainly promote the hell out of it. And no slight of hand here. The poem was actually written by one John Ryskamp residing in San Francisco. FIZZ aka Carlo Parcelli P.S. for you backchannelers. I am not "in with" Kent on his current assault or as David Graham is fond of saying---"Can we get back to poetry." wild honey press wrote: >just to concur in that I too think Carlo is great. Though I don't know who >wrote the Enc. ent. > >best > >Randolph > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kent Johnson" >To: >Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:03 PM >Subject: [New-Poetry] epigram for Carlo > > > > >>Carlo, >> >>I just knew it was you who wrote that! >> >>Say, did I ever show this epigram, from the forthcoming Epigramititis: 111 >> >> >Living American Poets? Most are on minor poets, but I included a few great >ones, like you. Cheers, fella. You always bring a chuckle hereabouts: > > >>Carlo Pacelli >> >>He's not much on the page, >>to be sure, but he evidently >>thinks he's Ezra Pound. Like >>the latter, he grows nuttier >>as he enters old age. Poor man* >>See him rattle, as he reads this >>epigram, the grating of his little cage. >> >>* >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 26 19:45:51 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:45:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] epigram for Carlo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42BF3E2F.9090008@ix.netcom.com> For you backchannelers. I am not "in with" Kent in his current fit or as David Graham is fond of saying---"Can we get back to poetry." Kent's epigrams? At least one is free to gauge his talents without being accused of "inaccuracies." FIZZ Kent Johnson wrote: >Carlo, > >I just knew it was you who wrote that! > >Say, did I ever show this epigram, from the forthcoming Epigramititis: 111 Living American Poets? Most are on minor poets, but I included a few great ones, like you. Cheers, fella. You always bring a chuckle hereabouts: > > >Carlo Pacelli > >He's not much on the page, >to be sure, but he evidently >thinks he's Ezra Pound. Like >the latter, he grows nuttier >as he enters old age. Poor man* >See him rattle, as he reads this >epigram, the grating of his little cage. > >* > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sun Jun 26 20:17:19 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:17:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Epigram for Carlo Message-ID: >For you backchannelers. I am not "in with" Kent in his current fit or as David Graham is fond of saying---"Can we get back to poetry." Kent's epigrams? At least one is free to gauge his talents without being accused of "inaccuracies." FIZZ ...as I said. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 26 23:40:12 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:40:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: OOZE On Military Pedophelia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42BF751C.5030809@ix.netcom.com> The Kleptocracy Has Spoken: "You Sold Us Your Souls. Now We Want Your Home And Your Babies." Justices Affirm Property Seizures; 5-4 Ruling Backs Forced Sales for Private Development: Combat Pedophelia: Military Hires Private Firm To Target Your Children As War Fodder: Outsourced Data Firm Run By Pedophiles, Child Pornograhers. Did the Pentagon Know? "Damn Right We Did.": American Youth Held In High Esteem. "I'd Like To See Some Of These Little Motherfuckers Shipped To Iraq Myself."---My Neighbor: Kindasleezie Rice Speaks Out Against Land Seizures In Zimbabwe For Poor Blacks, But Keeps Mouth Shut On Seizure Of Property By Kleptocracy In U.S.: China To Build New U.S. Based Headquarters On Land On Long Island Seized Through Eminent Domain: By CHAZ OOZE http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/index.html > > From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Jun 27 11:04:22 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:04:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: epigram for Carlo Message-ID: Carlo sent me a nice message last night with the following in subject box: "memo: Too much of a suck-up careerist to talk to FIZZ" The message box was empty. As I indicated in reply to Carlo: He is so entertaining, pretty soon I'll just have to start liking him! From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Jun 27 12:00:26 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:00:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? Message-ID: So here we are on the "New Poetry" list, and no one has even said peep about the new poem of Sappho's recently unwound from a mummy? geez. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 27 12:09:51 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:09:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: epigram for Carlo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C024CF.3060004@ix.netcom.com> Uche says "Stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that it is jinxed against bearing any useful content." I sincerely regret and apologize to the list that Kent forgot I'm not important enough to talk to. FIZZ Kent Johnson wrote: >Carlo sent me a nice message last night with the following in subject >box: > >"memo: Too much of a suck-up careerist to talk to FIZZ" > >The message box was empty. > >As I indicated in reply to Carlo: He is so entertaining, pretty soon >I'll just have to start liking him! > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Jun 27 12:26:27 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:26:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Call that new? I'm going to see if my mummy's got any poems wrapped around her. Hal Art & Plastic Surgery Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ On Jun 27, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Kent Johnson wrote: > So here we are on the "New Poetry" list, and no one has even said peep > about the new poem of Sappho's recently unwound from a mummy? > > geez. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Mon Jun 27 12:44:20 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:44:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? Message-ID: Halvard said, >Call that new? I'm going to see if my mummy's got any poems wrapped around her. You're right, Halvard. Sorry. Sappho is old, moth-eaten news. I'll be sure to get my news that stays news from The Hamilton Stone Review. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jun 27 13:07:39 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:07:39 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? References: Message-ID: <002801c57b3a$b968cd20$c7ed3652@ANNY> I always thought that all that Sappho thing was so invented, the more when I finally read this book some years ago : "Io Sappho" (I, Sappho) by Marcello Venturoli, a great story of which I cannot remember one single word, I have no idea if there is a translation in English, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 6:44 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? > Halvard said, > >>Call that new? I'm going to see if my mummy's got any poems wrapped > around her. > > You're right, Halvard. Sorry. Sappho is old, moth-eaten news. > > I'll be sure to get my news that stays news from The Hamilton Stone > Review. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Jun 27 13:38:25 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:38:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9caac602557d0c8e39fff211fa384964@earthlink.net> Good, old HSR--every poem and story found wrapped about someone's mummy. Hal Art & Plastic Surgery Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ On Jun 27, 2005, at 12:44 PM, Kent Johnson wrote: > Halvard said, > >> Call that new? I'm going to see if my mummy's got any poems wrapped > around her. > > You're right, Halvard. Sorry. Sappho is old, moth-eaten news. > > I'll be sure to get my news that stays news from The Hamilton Stone > Review. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jun 27 14:24:36 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:24:36 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fitzgerald and Joyce Message-ID: <00de01c57b45$7977c760$c7ed3652@ANNY> I find this entwining interesting: Fitzgerald - Joyce - Fitzgerald: >From Today in Literature: http://www.todayinliterature.com/today.asp?Search_Date=6/27/2005 On this day in 1928 Sylvia Beach hosted a dinner party in order that F. Scott Fitzgerald, who "worshipped James Joyce, but was afraid to approach him," might do so. In her Shakespeare and Company memoir Beach delicately avoids describing what happened, although she perhaps suggests an explanation: "Poor Scott was earning so much from his books that he and Zelda had to drink a great deal of champagne in Montmartre in an effort to get rid of it." According to Herbert Gorman, another guest and Joyce's first biographer, Fitzgerald sank down on one knee before Joyce, kissed his hand, and declared: "How does it feel to be a great genius, Sir? I am so excited at seeing you, Sir, that I could weep." As the evening progressed, Fitzgerald "enlarged upon Nora Joyce's beauty, and, finally, darted through an open window to the stone balcony outside, jumped on to the eighteen-inch-wide parapet and threatened to fling himself to the cobbled thoroughfare below unless Nora declared that she loved him." Beach, and almost everyone, liked and lamented Fitzgerald in equal measure: "...With his blue eyes and good looks, his concern for others, that wild recklessness of his, and his fallen-angel fascination, he streaked across the rue de l'Od?on, dazzling us for a moment." Joyce was alarmed at the falling-angel side -- "That young man must be mad," he later told Beach. "I'm afraid he'll do himself an injury some day" -- but he handled the American exuberance with Old World charm. When Fitzgerald sent him a copy of A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man a few days later, asking for a dedication, Joyce sent back this note: "Herewith is the book you gave me, signed, and I am adding a portrait of the artist as a once young man with the thought of your much obliged but most pusillanimous guest." Several years earlier Fitzgerald had written his editor, Max Perkins, that he was pledged to writing "something really NEW in form, idea, structure -- the model for the age that Joyce and Stein are searching for, that Conrad didn't find." This was after The Great Gatsby, when it was clear that neither the reviews nor the sales were going to be what he had hoped: "Some day they'll eat grass, by God!" Writing to Perkins about his dinner with Joyce, Fitzgerald said that he took heart from hearing Joyce say that his next book would take three or four more years to complete. Fitzgerald's next and last novel (but for the incomplete The Last Tycoon) was Tender is the Night -- not the "model for the age" that he had hoped. He would die of a heart attack at age forty-four, just three weeks before Joyce would die suddenly at age fifty-eight. In the Modern Library's Top 100 list for the century, the first three books are Ulysses, The Great Gatsby, and A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. Zelda did not share her husband's enthusiasm for Joyce. When undergoing treatment for her first breakdown -- this was 1930, several years after the dinner -- she asked Scott to choose her some books, carefully: "I have been reading Joyce and find it a nightmare in my present condition. . . and not Lawrence and not Virginia Wolf [sic] or anybody who writes by dipping the broken threads of their heads into the ink of literary history, please." Several years later, Joyce's daughter, Lucia would have the same psychiatrist as Zelda, stay for a time in the same Lake Geneva clinic, and also be diagnosed as schizophrenic. __________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jun 27 19:26:29 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:26:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?The_Blurbist=E2=80=99s_Revenge?= Message-ID: <12a.6029b62a.2ff1e525@aol.com> The Blurbist?s Revenge Is it too much to ask that some books should not be printed on acid-free paper. When I broke the spine of this book, it felt good. A translation of this book is unforgivable. O, that the pupils in the eyes of the writer were not black periods. Going blind isn?t so bad. At least in Braille my fingertips would have gotten a nice massage. Engagement with this book has driven me to enroll in an ?English as a tertiary language? course. After reading this book I had a great urge to spade open an anthill if only to watch a chaotic insectal alphabet spill out. The pity, I couldn?t go back even to save my favorite bookmark. What is not inutterable, if not this? Put this book in a time capsule and bury it deep. >From the text I ripped out a page here and there, to save the next reader the trouble. I can easily imagine finding this book at library book sale stamped ?WITHDRAWN?. It was a real page-burner?recalling scenes from Fahrenheit 451 fondly. Any gloss on this book would be merely glossolalia. This book still haunts me. If the author ever needs an editor, may I suggest: a paper shredder Wittgenstein said, What we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence. I need absolute quiet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jun 27 23:00:45 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:00:45 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baudelaire Message-ID: <005901c57b8d$94d242e0$de7c3652@ANNY> Recueillement Sois sage, ? ma douleur, et tiens-toi plus tranquille; Tu r?clamais le soir: il descend, le voici! Une atmosph?re obscure enveloppe la ville, Aux uns portant la paix, aux autres le souci. Pendant que des mortels la multitude vile, Sous le fouet du Plaisir, ce bourreau sans merci, Va cueillir des remords dans la f?te servile, Ma douleur, donne moi la main; viens par ici Loin d'eux. Vois se pencher les d?funtes Ann?es, Sur les balcons du ciel, en robes surann?es. Surgir des fonds de l'eau le Regret souriant; Le soleil moribond s'endormir sous une arche; Et, comme un long linceul tra?nant ? l'Orient, Entends, ma ch?re, entends la douce nuit qui marche. ---- Charles Baudelaire Recollection Be wise my sorrow, and keep still; You claimed for evening: it is descending, here it is! A doomed atmosphere is enveloping town, To some bringing peace, to others worries. While of mortals the vile crowd, Under the whip of Pleasure, this merciless murderer, Is gathering remorse within the servile feast, My sorrow, give me your hand; come this way Distant from them. See how defunct Years bend, On the sky's balconies, in outdated clothes. Rising from the bottoms of water is smiling Regret; The dying sun falling asleep under an arch; And, like a long shroud dragging to the East, Listen, my dear, listen to the sweet walking night. ---- Charles Baudelaire Translated by Anny Ballardini Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.peter at saint-andre.com Mon Jun 27 23:48:06 2005 From: j.peter at saint-andre.com (Peter Saint-Andre) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:48:06 -0700 (MST) Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? In-Reply-To: <002801c57b3a$b968cd20$c7ed3652@ANNY> References: <002801c57b3a$b968cd20$c7ed3652@ANNY> Message-ID: <64871.4.227.248.196.1119930486.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com> > I always thought that all that Sappho thing was so invented What, pray tell, is "all that Sappho thing" and how precisely was it invented? She happens to be my chosen muse... ****** Sing me, Muse, of your bright sister -- small and dark, they say she was, though I shall never know her. Her song is lost, yet even her merest shards are a vibrant spark. She is like a god to me, who sang that song of love for what one loves. A pagan was she, whose Christian fate it was to burn, her art cut short when night grew long. Misguided faith I can forgive, but to lose the greatest of the poets, whose song should live, I cannot bear. I can but pay her homage: Sappho, be my muse. ****** Peter From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Jun 28 03:18:18 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:18:18 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? References: <002801c57b3a$b968cd20$c7ed3652@ANNY> <64871.4.227.248.196.1119930486.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com> Message-ID: <001701c57bb1$8f4b45f0$85ad3252@ANNY> A most beautiful poem, please more, if she is your Muse you should definitely read that book I quoted before, a transposition of the Author into Sappho with most delicate descriptions, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre. From: "Peter Saint-Andre" Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 5:48 AM > >> I always thought that all that Sappho thing was so invented > > What, pray tell, is "all that Sappho thing" and how precisely was it > invented? She happens to be my chosen muse... > > ****** > > Sing me, Muse, of your bright sister -- small and dark, > they say she was, though I shall never know her. > Her song is lost, yet even her merest shards > are a vibrant spark. > > She is like a god to me, who sang that song > of love for what one loves. A pagan was she, > whose Christian fate it was to burn, her art cut > short when night grew long. > > Misguided faith I can forgive, but to lose > the greatest of the poets, whose song should live, > I cannot bear. I can but pay her homage: > Sappho, be my muse. > > ****** > > Peter > From chezjewelweed at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 09:37:05 2005 From: chezjewelweed at gmail.com (Yo) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:37:05 -0400 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_The_Blurbist=92s_Revenge?= In-Reply-To: <12a.6029b62a.2ff1e525@aol.com> References: <12a.6029b62a.2ff1e525@aol.com> Message-ID: My old favorite was an anonymous quip which apparently ended a poet's career back in the 19th century: "Long after Homer and Shakespeare have been forgotten, people will be reading and cherishing XXX's work. But not until then." --Suzanne From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 11:34:06 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:34:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued Message-ID: <731bb17a0506280834540fed45@mail.gmail.com> >From *The Guardian:* http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1513491,00.html ** Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 28 11:47:55 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:47:55 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued References: <731bb17a0506280834540fed45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <012701c57bf8$c52ddbf0$db309b51@Robin> << >From The Guardian: http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1513491,00.html Jeff Newberry >> Most of the (UK) newspapers are simply picking-up and rewriting the piece in the TLS published last Friday: http://www.the-tls.co.uk/this_week/story.aspx?story_id=2111206 The web version above omits the Greek text. I bought a hard copy on Saturday, so anyone who wants to see the Greek (reconstricted from the mummy wrapping and another, already extant, fragment) backchannel me and I'll scan it and send it. I'm with Kent on this -- utterly baffles me that more hasn't been made of this. Christ, a fourth "complete" Sappho poem. Isn't this news or what? Robin From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jun 28 11:50:47 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:50:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] test In-Reply-To: <011a01c5596a$e8354da0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <42C13997.26755.A1BD36@localhost> test Marcus From tad at opus40.org Tue Jun 28 12:13:22 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:13:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? References: <002801c57b3a$b968cd20$c7ed3652@ANNY> <64871.4.227.248.196.1119930486.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com> Message-ID: <001701c57bfc$513eeaa0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Can you choose a muse? I thought they chose you. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Saint-Andre" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? > >> I always thought that all that Sappho thing was so invented > > What, pray tell, is "all that Sappho thing" and how precisely was it > invented? She happens to be my chosen muse... > > ****** > > Sing me, Muse, of your bright sister -- small and dark, > they say she was, though I shall never know her. > Her song is lost, yet even her merest shards > are a vibrant spark. > > She is like a god to me, who sang that song > of love for what one loves. A pagan was she, > whose Christian fate it was to burn, her art cut > short when night grew long. > > Misguided faith I can forgive, but to lose > the greatest of the poets, whose song should live, > I cannot bear. I can but pay her homage: > Sappho, be my muse. > > ****** > > Peter > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Tue Jun 28 12:18:16 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:18:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] test References: <42C13997.26755.A1BD36@localhost> Message-ID: <007201c57bfd$008cffb0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> I passed. It was easy. Tad Richards www.opus40.org http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 11:50 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] test > test > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Jun 28 13:15:09 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:15:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] test In-Reply-To: <007201c57bfd$008cffb0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <42C13997.26755.A1BD36@localhost> <007201c57bfd$008cffb0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Oh, everything passes, Tad/. Hal Art & Plastic Surgery Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net halvard at gmail.com website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ On Jun 28, 2005, at 12:18 PM, The Old Mole wrote: > I passed. It was easy. > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 11:50 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] test > > >> test >> >> Marcus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From uche at ogbuji.net Tue Jun 28 13:24:13 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:24:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued In-Reply-To: <012701c57bf8$c52ddbf0$db309b51@Robin> References: <731bb17a0506280834540fed45@mail.gmail.com> <012701c57bf8$c52ddbf0$db309b51@Robin> Message-ID: <1119979453.28177.60.camel@malatesta> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 16:47 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > << > >From The Guardian: > http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1513491,00.html > > Jeff Newberry > >> > > Most of the (UK) newspapers are simply picking-up and rewriting the piece in > the TLS published last Friday: > > http://www.the-tls.co.uk/this_week/story.aspx?story_id=2111206 > > The web version above omits the Greek text. > > I bought a hard copy on Saturday, so anyone who wants to see the Greek > (reconstricted from the mummy wrapping and another, already extant, > fragment) backchannel me and I'll scan it and send it. I'd be grateful for a copy of the scan. -- Uche From uche at ogbuji.net Tue Jun 28 13:26:29 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:26:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued In-Reply-To: <1119979453.28177.60.camel@malatesta> References: <731bb17a0506280834540fed45@mail.gmail.com> <012701c57bf8$c52ddbf0$db309b51@Robin> <1119979453.28177.60.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <1119979589.28177.63.camel@malatesta> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 11:24 -0600, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 16:47 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > I bought a hard copy on Saturday, so anyone who wants to see the Greek > > (reconstricted from the mummy wrapping and another, already extant, > > fragment) backchannel me and I'll scan it and send it. > > I'd be grateful for a copy of the scan. Oops. Meant to be direct e-mail. -- Uche From cgi77 at aol.com Tue Jun 28 13:28:35 2005 From: cgi77 at aol.com (cgi77 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:28:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued In-Reply-To: <1119979453.28177.60.camel@malatesta> References: <731bb17a0506280834540fed45@mail.gmail.com> <012701c57bf8$c52ddbf0$db309b51@Robin> <1119979453.28177.60.camel@malatesta> Message-ID: <8C74A1DF298CEDF-894-11AFF@FWM-R28.sysops.aol.com> If it's not too much trouble Robin, I'd love to see the scan. -Peter Ciccariello ARTIST'S BLOG - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Uche Ogbuji Sent: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:24:13 -0600 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 16:47 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > << > >From The Guardian: > http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1513491,00.html > > Jeff Newberry > >> > > Most of the (UK) newspapers are simply picking-up and rewriting the piece in > the TLS published last Friday: > > http://www.the-tls.co.uk/this_week/story.aspx?story_id=2111206 > > The web version above omits the Greek text. > > I bought a hard copy on Saturday, so anyone who wants to see the Greek > (reconstricted from the mummy wrapping and another, already extant, > fragment) backchannel me and I'll scan it and send it. I'd be grateful for a copy of the scan. -- Uche _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jun 28 13:31:08 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:31:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued In-Reply-To: <1119979453.28177.60.camel@malatesta> References: <012701c57bf8$c52ddbf0$db309b51@Robin> Message-ID: <42C1511C.22800.FD9D0C@localhost> Yes, I'd like to see the original Greek, too, please. Thanks Marcus On 28 Jun 2005 at 11:24, Uche Ogbuji wrote: > On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 16:47 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > << > > >From The Guardian: > > http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1513491,00.html > > > > Jeff Newberry > > >> > > > > Most of the (UK) newspapers are simply picking-up and rewriting the piece in > > the TLS published last Friday: > > > > http://www.the-tls.co.uk/this_week/story.aspx?story_id=2111206 > > > > The web version above omits the Greek text. > > > > I bought a hard copy on Saturday, so anyone who wants to see the Greek > > (reconstricted from the mummy wrapping and another, already extant, > > fragment) backchannel me and I'll scan it and send it. > > I'd be grateful for a copy of the scan. > > -- > Uche > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Jun 28 06:34:31 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:34:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Blurbist=?ISO-8859-1?B?uQ==?=s Revenge In-Reply-To: <12a.6029b62a.2ff1e525@aol.com> Message-ID: On 6/27/05 6:26 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" wrote: > The Blurbist?s Revenge > > > Is it too much to ask that some books should not > be printed on acid-free paper. > > When I broke the spine of this book, it felt good. > > A translation of this book is unforgivable. > > O, that the pupils in the eyes of the writer were not black periods. > > Going blind isn?t so bad. At least in Braille > my fingertips would have gotten a nice massage. > > Engagement with this book has driven me to enroll > in an ?English as a tertiary language? course. > > After reading this book I had a great urge to spade open > an anthill if only to watch a chaotic insectal alphabet spill out. > > The pity, I couldn?t go back even to save my favorite bookmark. > > What is not inutterable, if not this? > > Put this book in a time capsule and bury it deep. > >> >From the text I ripped out a page here and there, > to save the next reader the trouble. > > I can easily imagine finding this book at library book sale > stamped ?WITHDRAWN?. > > It was a real page-burner?recalling scenes > from Fahrenheit 451 fondly. > > Any gloss on this book would be merely glossolalia. > > This book still haunts me. > > If the author ever needs an editor, may I suggest: a paper shredder > > Wittgenstein said, What we cannot speak of > we must pass over in silence. I need absolute quiet. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > For a minute there I thought I was reading a William Logan review. Some great inventions in this. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Tue Jun 28 13:54:29 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:54:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Sappho on the way? Message-ID: Apparently, the Oxyrhynchus Papyri are suspected to harbor poems by Sappho as well. An unknown poem by Archilochus has already been discovered, plus a new (sorry Halvard!) play by Sophocles, among other things. There are hundreds of papyri still to be "unscrolled" through the imaging technique they are using. It's incredible to me that this has not been bigger news than it has been. http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/ From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 28 14:12:42 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:12:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Sappho on the way? References: Message-ID: <020201c57c0c$fb02e590$db309b51@Robin> > Apparently, the Oxyrhynchus Papyri are suspected to harbor poems by > Sappho as well. An unknown poem by Archilochus has already been > discovered, plus a new (sorry Halvard!) play by Sophocles, among other > things. There are hundreds of papyri still to be "unscrolled" through > the imaging technique they are using. It's incredible to me that this > has not been bigger news than it has been. > > http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/ Thanks for this URL. There are also three Anacreon texts here, apparently -- do you know if these are new too, Kent? For once, I'm entirely with you. It's positively insane that this isn't blazoned across the front pages of the tabs, leave alone apparently being ignored on the poetry lists. *HOWL* Robin From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Tue Jun 28 14:23:24 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:23:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Sappho on the way? Message-ID: Why, Robin, I never knew you weren't "with me"! But yes, it's a mystery to me why this isn't more prominent. Apparently the NYTimes and other major newspapers haven't even run stories on it yet. I just don't understand that. The Independent story appeard a couple months ago already. It is all very actual and real (scroll down and see the selected stories on the web site). Maybe it's just so mind boggling in its implications that people haven't quite figured out how to deal with it. Maybe some people are worried about the biblical texts that will be scanned? I don't know... But as far as I can tell, this is like a whole wing of the Alexandria library being discovered unburned under the sand. Kent From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Jun 28 14:24:14 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:24:14 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued Message-ID: <25274709.1119983054031.JavaMail.root@wamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Coming soon: SAPPHO RAPS TUT. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Newberry Sent: Jun 28, 2005 8:34 AM To: NewPoetry Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued >From *The Guardian:* http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1513491,00.html ** Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Jun 28 14:34:02 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:34:02 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued Message-ID: <22128557.1119983642696.JavaMail.root@wamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Uh, that should have been: SAPPHO RAPS ON TUT. - Jim, not meant for immortality -----Original Message----- From: James Cervantes Sent: Jun 28, 2005 11:24 AM To: Jeff Newberry , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued Coming soon: SAPPHO RAPS TUT. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Newberry Sent: Jun 28, 2005 8:34 AM To: NewPoetry Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho Continued >From *The Guardian:* http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1513491,00.html ** Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 28 14:35:07 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:35:07 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho -- what's the third? References: <020201c57c0c$fb02e590$db309b51@Robin> Message-ID: <022f01c57c10$1cb40d10$db309b51@Robin> Obviously the Aphrodite Ode, and "How like a god he seems to me" (but even that's incomplete, so strictly the only *complete* [extant] Sappho poem before a day or so ago was the lecherous sparrows one). I'm guessing that the third was the moon withdrawing: SAPPHO: Fragment 34 Stars assume their veils when she first emerges, Shyly form her retinue; but at full moon Draw off to the uttermost reach of chill night: So with Alexis. ... or have I got this wrong again as ever so often? Robin From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Jun 28 14:35:16 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:35:16 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Sappho on the way? References: Message-ID: <013401c57c10$21502a70$bddf3052@ANNY> An interesting link, I found this new _story_ of our dearest Narcissus, see if you can get all the way down to the end for the _moral_ http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/news/narcissus.html The ugly end of Narcissus Ancient manuscript sheds new light on an enduring myth by David Keys Narcissus, Greek mythology's most tragic figure, didn't die of a broken heart, but collapsed into a pool of blood after committing suicide, according to a new discovery. A previously unknown account of Narcissus's demise - which appears to pre-date all other known versions - has been discovered among ancient manuscripts stored at Oxford University. This early version - a Greek poem - probably dates from the mid-first century BC and differs from the oft-quoted account by the Roman poet Ovid written about half a century later. 'Following this discovery it is becoming increasingly clear that the myth was altered by Ovid to broaden its appeal,' said the Oxford scholar who discovered the poem, Dr Benjamin Henry of the university's classics faculty. Narcissus was so beautiful that vast numbers of men (not Echo and other females, in the newly discovered poem) fell in love with him. However, such was his egocentricity that he spurned them all, leaving a trail of heartbreak behind him. Finally, a rejected suitor persuaded one of the gods to deal with him. Narcissus was made to stare for ever at his own image, reflected in a pool of water. The more he stared, the more desperately he fell in love with himself. According to Ovid, Narcissus - pining from a broken heart - wasted away and died, whereupon he turned into the world's very first narcissus flower. However the earlier version has now revealed that the original myth probably had a less peaceful, more violent denouement, ending in bloody suicide. The papyrus fragment is one of tens of thousands that were found in the late 19th and early 20th century in ancient rubbish dumps at Oxyrhynchus in Egypt. These dumps, now fully excavated, are the world's largest source of ancient writings, accounting for 70 per cent of all known literary papyri. Many are kept at Oxford but the majority have still not been fully transcribed and translated. It was during work on these remaining manuscripts that the Narcissus fragment was found. Dr Henry thinks it likely that its author was Parthenius of Nicaea, a Greek from what is now western Turkey. He appears to have been born sometime around 100 to 90 BC and was taken prisoner by the Romans during a war in Anatolia in around 73 BC. He ended up in Italy, where he became the Roman poet Virgil's tutor. Although a mythological character, Narcissus has had a substantial impact on human culture - from art and literature (Shakespeare, Milton, Poussin, Rousseau and Goethe) to morality, lifestyle, Freudian psychology and arguably even religion. It's thought that, in the liberal sexual atmosphere of ancient Greece, his story developed as a cautionary tale as to what could happen to beautiful young men who rejected their elders' advances. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 7:54 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] More Sappho on the way? > Apparently, the Oxyrhynchus Papyri are suspected to harbor poems by > Sappho as well. An unknown poem by Archilochus has already been > discovered, plus a new (sorry Halvard!) play by Sophocles, among other > things. There are hundreds of papyri still to be "unscrolled" through > the imaging technique they are using. It's incredible to me that this > has not been bigger news than it has been. > > http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 28 15:03:36 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:03:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Sappho on the way? References: Message-ID: <024301c57c14$16d33de0$db309b51@Robin> Kent: > Why, Robin, I never knew you weren't "with me"! REMEMBER THOR 5!!! > But yes, it's a mystery to me why this isn't more prominent. Apparently > the NYTimes and other major newspapers haven't even run stories on it > yet. I just don't understand that. It seems to be a Brit split. The Indy and the Groan have picked up on the TLS piece, but none of the tabs even here, and a quick scan of google news doesn't produce that many hits. > The Independent story appeard a > couple months ago already. Missed that -- I'm obviously behind time. > It is all very actual and real (scroll down > and see the selected stories on the web site). Maybe it's just so mind > boggling in its implications that people haven't quite figured out how > to deal with it. Maybe some people are worried about the biblical texts > that will be scanned? Well, let's not exaggerate -- the Nag Hammadi library it ain't. Yet. (Song of the Pearl, anyone?) > I don't know... But as far as I can tell, this is > like a whole wing of the Alexandria library being discovered unburned > under the sand. Um ... Wouldn't go quite that far, even me. The Noyau Detective From uche at ogbuji.net Tue Jun 28 16:19:46 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:19:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Sappho on the way? In-Reply-To: <020201c57c0c$fb02e590$db309b51@Robin> References: <020201c57c0c$fb02e590$db309b51@Robin> Message-ID: <1119989986.28177.73.camel@malatesta> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 19:12 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Apparently, the Oxyrhynchus Papyri are suspected to harbor poems by > > Sappho as well. An unknown poem by Archilochus has already been > > discovered, plus a new (sorry Halvard!) play by Sophocles, among other > > things. There are hundreds of papyri still to be "unscrolled" through > > the imaging technique they are using. It's incredible to me that this > > has not been bigger news than it has been. > > > > http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/ > > Thanks for this URL. > > There are also three Anacreon texts here, apparently -- do you know if these > are new too, Kent? > > For once, I'm entirely with you. > > It's positively insane that this isn't blazoned across the front pages of > the tabs, leave alone apparently being ignored on the poetry lists. Very, very strange. In my computer techie circles the Oxyrhynchus Papyri have been the subject of a *lot* of buzz and chatter for the past few months. This does include some folks decrying the hype (I've heard it described as the find that renews civilization, or something like that). There's still a lot of work to do before it starts to really yield fruit, but I'd assumed the new imaging technique for the Oxyrhynchus was big news everywhere. -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From cc at opus0.com Tue Jun 28 17:07:09 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:07:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Baudelaire In-Reply-To: <200506281600.j5SG04Re028392@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Anny, Can you post more of these to the list? C > Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:00:45 +0200 > From: "Anny Ballardini" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Baudelaire > > Recueillement > > > > Sois sage, t ma douleur, et tiens-toi plus tranquille; > Tu riclamais le soir: il descend, le voici! > Une atmosphhre obscure enveloppe la ville, > Aux uns portant la paix, aux autres le souci. > > Pendant que des mortels la multitude vile, > Sous le fouet du Plaisir, ce bourreau sans merci, > Va cueillir des remords dans la fjte servile, > Ma douleur, donne moi la main; viens par ici > > Loin d'eux. Vois se pencher les difuntes Annies, > Sur les balcons du ciel, en robes surannies. > Surgir des fonds de l'eau le Regret souriant; > > Le soleil moribond s'endormir sous une arche; > Et, comme un long linceul trannant ` l'Orient, > Entends, ma chhre, entends la douce nuit qui marche. > > > > ---- Charles Baudelaire > > > > > Recollection > > > > Be wise my sorrow, and keep still; > > You claimed for evening: it is descending, here it is! > > A doomed atmosphere is enveloping town, > > To some bringing peace, to others worries. > > > > While of mortals the vile crowd, > > Under the whip of Pleasure, this merciless murderer, > > Is gathering remorse within the servile feast, > > My sorrow, give me your hand; come this way > > > > Distant from them. See how defunct Years bend, > > On the sky's balconies, in outdated clothes. > > Rising from the bottoms of water is smiling Regret; > > > > The dying sun falling asleep under an arch; > > And, like a long shroud dragging to the East, > > Listen, my dear, listen to the sweet walking night. > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Jun 28 17:51:57 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:51:57 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Baudelaire References: Message-ID: <01f101c57c2b$9b124170$bddf3052@ANNY> Thank you Crisman, hopefully I will. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche From: "Crisman Cooley" Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 11:07 PM > Anny, > Can you post more of these to the list? > > C > From j.peter at saint-andre.com Tue Jun 28 17:57:14 2005 From: j.peter at saint-andre.com (Peter Saint-Andre) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:57:14 -0700 (MST) Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? In-Reply-To: <001701c57bfc$513eeaa0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <002801c57b3a$b968cd20$c7ed3652@ANNY> <64871.4.227.248.196.1119930486.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com> <001701c57bfc$513eeaa0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <51327.207.182.164.14.1119995834.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com> > Can you choose a muse? I thought they chose you. Some of them like it if you're assertive. ;-) Peter From j.peter at saint-andre.com Tue Jun 28 18:09:34 2005 From: j.peter at saint-andre.com (Peter Saint-Andre) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:09:34 -0700 (MST) Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? In-Reply-To: <001701c57bb1$8f4b45f0$85ad3252@ANNY> References: <002801c57b3a$b968cd20$c7ed3652@ANNY> <64871.4.227.248.196.1119930486.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com> <001701c57bb1$8f4b45f0$85ad3252@ANNY> Message-ID: <53642.207.182.164.14.1119996574.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com> > A most beautiful poem, please more, Because you ask so sweetly, here is another of my poems in Sapphic meter (entitled "Cobalt" -- the other one was entitled "Ancient Fire", though really I'm not all that much into titles...): *** My friend is a cobalt poetry goddess: she turns her phrases with a quiet power and dances among her words with style and grace, like Sappho herself. But she's often, so often, blue: the color of the twilight sky, deep and clear, bordering on the blackest night, yet never losing hold of the light of day. Sometimes I wish I could brighten her a shade or two -- make her azure or cerulean. But then I know I'd never want to change her blue poetic soul. *** > if she is your Muse you should definitely read that book I quoted before, Interlibrary loan, here I come! Peter From debra at debradicembre.com Tue Jun 28 20:26:09 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:26:09 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? References: <002801c57b3a$b968cd20$c7ed3652@ANNY><64871.4.227.248.196.1119930486.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com><001701c57bb1$8f4b45f0$85ad3252@ANNY> <53642.207.182.164.14.1119996574.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com> Message-ID: <001601c57c41$27339ea0$0301010a@galaxy> Love this.... Debra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Saint-Andre" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] uh, Sappho? > > > A most beautiful poem, please more, > > Because you ask so sweetly, here is another of my poems in Sapphic meter > (entitled "Cobalt" -- the other one was entitled "Ancient Fire", though > really I'm not all that much into titles...): > > *** > > My friend is a cobalt poetry goddess: > she turns her phrases with a quiet power > and dances among her words with style and grace, > like Sappho herself. > > But she's often, so often, blue: the color > of the twilight sky, deep and clear, bordering > on the blackest night, yet never losing hold > of the light of day. > > Sometimes I wish I could brighten her a shade > or two -- make her azure or cerulean. > But then I know I'd never want to change her > blue poetic soul. > > *** > > > if she is your Muse you should definitely read that book I quoted before, > > Interlibrary loan, here I come! > > Peter > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From uche at ogbuji.net Wed Jun 29 09:56:39 2005 From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:56:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hips Message-ID: <1120053399.28177.84.camel@malatesta> Hips Fashion's late discovery Is the small of her back-- Dimple dye dimmed, tattoo Fleur de lis, blue on black. Belly's air foil, spoiler navel ring Fleshly angle of skirt, panty-line range. Fatigue top taut, severe >From ribs to bust, where tense Form blooms sharply to warm Mass that dominates the sense Of boyish girlish frank coy straight Gay debauch in stride and strut. Effect for the eyes All merely effect for the eyes The substance of her sex Follows gravity, not groove But flank: Gaugin goggle Swell to the currents' remove. Persuasion for closed eyes, close Quarters, alert fingertips, clutch class. Syrup sussurus of sweat-wick winding sarong-- Tremors from rhythmic, spasmed Slap-clap of bare heel on thong Hips, immediate, broadly surpass All science worked into ogled pose. -- Uche 21 February 2005, Superior CO -- Uche Ogbuji uche at ogbuji.net http://uche.ogbuji.net http://copia.ogbuji.net Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com http://Fourthought.com From Kazmandu at aol.com Thu Jun 30 02:25:17 2005 From: Kazmandu at aol.com (Kazmandu at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:25:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] What does it mean to be a successful poet? Message-ID: Richard, I do not think you understand the nature of delusions of grandeur! We ARE successful poets ... If we were not then we would not have the energy to produce our great earth shattering creations HAHA HEHE HAHA! The only reason mother goose is popular is because she used the same advertising agency as McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell and KFC which of course are the most successful hamburger pizza taco and chicken respectively. Your friend and mine, Kaz Maslanka _http://www.kazmaslanka.com_ (http://www.kazmaslanka.com/) In a message dated 6/26/2005 9:10:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes: Message: 2 Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 03:43:39 +0800 From: ELEMENOPE Productions Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: what it means to be a poet (kazmandu at aol.com) To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > What Mr. Cooley is really asking is: What does it mean to be a > SUCCESSFUL poet? In my view, of course, he isn't asking: "What's it like to be a poet?" >Crisman, > I think the reason there is little response to the question >"what does it mean to be a poet?" is that the question is too large. >Me ? personally I know I am an artist because I have personally >sacrificed the majority of my love-life and finances to pursue >something that has returned nothing to me but delusions of grandeur. >I believe only a muse-possessed artist lives that kind of existence. > Kaz I have updated my initial response to Mr. Cooley which led to my assertion that _Mother Goose_ is the foremost poet in our tongue. There will be more to come from me on both this subject and author in a forthcoming post. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jun 30 08:04:20 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:04:20 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] David Graham & Richard Eberhart Message-ID: <003801c57d6b$d97a97f0$a7a83852@ANNY> David Graham remembering Richard Eberhart on About.com Poetry, a good re-read for the list: http://poetry.about.com/od/20thcenturypoets/a/grahameberhart.htm?nl=1 ________________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: