From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul  1 11:30:02 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:30:02 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intellectuals and the Nation-State
Message-ID: <008701c57e51$c0286250$abd63152@ANNY>

> From: Liam Kennedy [mailto:liam.kennedy at ucd.ie] 
> Sent: donderdag 30 juni 2005 20:39


Intellectuals and the Nation-State

Clinton Institute for American Studies, University College Dublin

30 November - 1 December 2005


Keynote speakers include:

Terry Eagleton (University of Manchester)
Declan Kiberd (University College Dublin)
Eric Lott (University of Virginia)
Slavoj Zizek (Institute for Sociology, Ljubljana/Birkbeck College,
University of London). 

What role and effect do intellectuals have in the making and contesting of
national identities and state policies? This conference will consider
historical and current implications of this question. 

The critical voice of the intellectual has long been considered important to
the evolution of modern Western cultures. How and why was this voice so
often tied to the development of national identity? How have ideals of
intellectual autonomy and dissent been formulated within and across
nation-states? What forms of intellectual production have states
acknowledged and supported? What remains of the Enlightenment origins of the
idea of the intellectual?

We will focus on current issues of intellectual identity and activity in the
context of global challenges to the power and authority of the nation-state.
Today, as new global networks of cultural interaction emerge and new public
spheres take shape, what is happening to the intellectual's affective
relation to the nation-state? What is the role of critical thinking and the
value of ideas in an increasingly global 'knowledge society'? What is the
role of intellectuals in the making of a new world order and in shaping
responses to international crises and conflicts? What is the role of think
tanks and advocacy intellectuals in the formation of state policy? How have
new media redefined intellectual activity and identity? 

We invite single paper and panel proposals for this conference. Please send
one-page proposals with a brief CV by 30 September 2005 to:

Catherine Carey, Clinton Institute for American Studies, C211 John Henry
Newman Building, Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland. Tel: +353 1 716 8303. Fax:
+353 1 716 8643. E-mail: Catherine.Carey at ucd.ie

www.ucd.ie/amerstud

_________________________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From j.peter at saint-andre.com  Fri Jul  1 15:20:05 2005
From: j.peter at saint-andre.com (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:20:05 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intellectuals and the Nation-State
In-Reply-To: <008701c57e51$c0286250$abd63152@ANNY>
References: <008701c57e51$c0286250$abd63152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <36880.207.182.164.14.1120245605.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com>

> Intellectuals and the Nation-State

<snip/>

Interesting questions. But are poets intellectuals?

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
Denver, Colorado, USA
http://www.saint-andre.com/blog/




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul  1 15:46:48 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 21:46:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intellectuals and the Nation-State
References: <008701c57e51$c0286250$abd63152@ANNY>
	<36880.207.182.164.14.1120245605.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com>
Message-ID: <014301c57e75$9eec8020$abd63152@ANNY>

un/luckily _ it is a sine qua non

care, Anny

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.


From: "Peter Saint-Andre" <j.peter at saint-andre.com>
&amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Intellectuals and the Nation-State


>> Intellectuals and the Nation-State
>
> <snip/>
>
> Interesting questions. But are poets intellectuals?
>
> Peter
>
> -- 
> Peter Saint-Andre
> Denver, Colorado, USA
> http://www.saint-andre.com/blog/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From uche at ogbuji.net  Fri Jul  1 19:51:22 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:51:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mo' Sappho
Message-ID: <1120261882.28177.179.camel@malatesta>

Good discussion, though more philological than poetic, of the new Sappho
 on Language Hat, a linguistics Weblog:

http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001966.php

It includes a corrected PDF of the Greek.  If anyone got the GIF that's
been floating around, there are a couple of errors in it.  The corrected
PDF is here:

http://www.aoidoi.org/texts/sappho/new.pdf

BTW, I found through this article an on-line version of Liddell-Scott,
although it uses Latin orthography (not even Beta code), and is thus of
somewhat limited use.  I've always wanted to buy a full LS if I could
find it at about 10% of the usual price (not very likely: people tend to
hang on to their LSes):

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%
3A1999.04.0057;layout=;query=toc;loc=i%29o%2Fkolpos

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jul  2 03:32:18 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 03:32:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry
Message-ID: <000e01c57ed8$2f9951e0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>

http://www.americanlifeinpoetry.org/index.html

Has anyone looked at this website? It's Ted Kooser's contribution to the laureateship business of promoting poetry. I don't have any objection to the concept of providing a free column of poetry and brief intros to newspapers, and I don't have any serious objections to the poems, which are OK to good, but Kooser's intros are so awful. Is that really the best he can do?




Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
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From r_loden at sbcglobal.net  Sat Jul  2 07:18:08 2005
From: r_loden at sbcglobal.net (Rachel Loden)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 04:18:08 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] my Hugh Hefner poem
In-Reply-To: <s2c14f6a.062@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <000501c57ef7$bcf398b0$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE>


If you're so inclined, "Miss October" is at Poetry Daily today and
afterwards for a year in the archives.

http://www.poems.com/today.htm

----------------------------------------------------------

Rachel Loden
The Richard Nixon Snow Globe:
http://www.wildhoneypress.com/BOOKS/RNSG.htm
r_loden at sbcglobal.net




From cgi77 at aol.com  Sat Jul  2 10:15:49 2005
From: cgi77 at aol.com (cgi77 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 10:15:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] my Hugh Hefner poem
In-Reply-To: <000501c57ef7$bcf398b0$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE>
Message-ID: <8C74D27AE38F5D0-B14-B073@FWM-R45.sysops.aol.com>

Thanks for that Rachel, I really enjoyed it.
-Peter Ciccariello
ARTIST'S BLOG - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/

 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rachel Loden <r_loden at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 04:18:08 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] my Hugh Hefner poem


X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE

If you're so inclined, "Miss October" is at Poetry Daily today and
afterwards for a year in the archives.

http://www.poems.com/today.htm

----------------------------------------------------------

Rachel Loden
The Richard Nixon Snow Globe:
http://www.wildhoneypress.com/BOOKS/RNSG.htm
r_loden at sbcglobal.net


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Jul  2 10:44:01 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:44:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry
Message-ID: <90.60f648ca.2ff80231@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/2/2005 2:32:46 AM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org 
writes: 
> 
> http://www.americanlifeinpoetry.org/index.html
>   
>  Has anyone looked at this website? It's Ted Kooser's contribution to the 
> laureateship business of promoting poetry. I don't have any objection to the 
> concept of providing a free column of poetry and brief intros to newspapers, 
> and I don't have any serious objections to the poems, which are OK to good, but 
> Kooser's intros are so awful. Is that really the best he can do?
> 
Well, consider that he's aiming at a non-poetry-reading audience.
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sat Jul  2 10:53:59 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:53:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Weldon Kees
Message-ID: <731bb17a05070207534b7d72b6@mail.gmail.com>

Anthony Lane has a interesting and well-written piece over at *The New 
Yorker*'s website. It's too big to post here, I think, but I'll blurb a 
passage I like (but may not totally agree):

*Half a century later, what remains? Most people have never heard of Kees. A 
handful may hum and frown, then mention an anthology of verse in which his 
name cropped up. Longtime readers of this magazine may recall a poem or two 
that appeared in these pages. "The Collected Poems of Weldon Kees," edited 
by Donald Justice, was published in 1960. There has been a devout effort to 
revive, or perhaps create, his reputation, yet the impact has been limited. 
Something about Kees, in his afterlife as in his life, feels determined to 
elude any ambitions we may harbor on his behalf. Poets seem more readily 
enthused than scholars by his example, yet even that enthusiasm has a gleam 
of the cultish, as if Kees had hailed from (and returned to) a flickering 
underworld. Every now and then, one finds a fellow-Keesian?somebody who has 
picked up the scent of the mysterious figure and followed the trail. And 
that trail always leads to the same place. Not to the movies, or to the 
paintings; not to the short stories, or to the fruitless novels; not even to 
the poems, the crucible and crown of his achievement. Instead, we are led ad 
infinitum: to the Golden Gate, and to the empty Plymouth; to what did or did 
not happen next, and so to the reflection, as in a rearview mirror, of all 
that had come before.*
Find the whole article here: http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/
 Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jul  2 11:00:12 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 11:00:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] my Hugh Hefner poem
References: <000501c57ef7$bcf398b0$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE>
Message-ID: <002701c57f16$c41de9f0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>

Wow. Wow the first time I read it, wow on subsequent readings, wow again.

I just got a letter from a friend of mine who happened to read Poetry Daily 
today, Googled everything of yours he could find, discovered from the Jacket 
interview that we had collaborated, and was writing to upbraid me for not 
telling him about you before.

>From his letter:

Wow. All this time and you never
hipped me to her stuff. Shame on you. I like her stuff
a lot, as you might expect, and wish I'd known about
her earlier. So it goes. In any case, it's nice to see
that stuff like hers CAN get published and it's for
damn sure livelier and more fun to read than most of
the stuff that gets posted on P D or Verse Daily, or
in most littery mags for that matter.



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rachel Loden" <r_loden at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views'" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 7:18 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] my Hugh Hefner poem


>
> If you're so inclined, "Miss October" is at Poetry Daily today and
> afterwards for a year in the archives.
>
> http://www.poems.com/today.htm
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Rachel Loden
> The Richard Nixon Snow Globe:
> http://www.wildhoneypress.com/BOOKS/RNSG.htm
> r_loden at sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sat Jul  2 11:01:09 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 11:01:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Weldon Kees
Message-ID: <731bb17a05070208011f10114a@mail.gmail.com>

1926
 The porchlight coming on again,
Early November, the dead leaves
Raked in piles, the wicker swing
Creaking. Across the lots
A phonograph is playing *Ja-Da.*
 An orange moon. I see the lives
Of neighbors, mapped and marred
Like all the wars ahead, and R.
Insane, B. with his throat cut,
Fifteen years from now, in Omaha.
 I did not know them then.
My airedale scratches at the door.
And I am back from seeing Milton Sills
And Doris Kenyon. Twelve years old.
The porchlight coming on again.

    A Musician's Wife

 Between the visits to the shock ward

The doctors used to let you play

On the old upright Baldwin

Donated by a former patient

Who is said to be quite stable now. 

 And all day long you played Chopin,

Badly and hauntingly, when you weren't

Screaming on the porch that looked

Like an enormous birdcage. Or sat

In your room and stared out at the sky.

 You never looked at me at all.

I used to walk down to where the bus stopped

Over the hill where the eucalyptus trees

Moved in the fog, and stared down

At the lights coming on, in the white rooms.

 And always, when I came back to my sister's

I used to get out the records you made

The year before all your terrible trouble,

The records the critics praised and nobody bought

That are almost worn out now.

 Now, sometimes I wake in the night

And hear the sound of dead leaves

against the shutters. And then a distant

Music starts, a music out of an abyss,

And it is dawn before I sleep again. 

  Round

 "Wondrous life!" cried Marvell at Appleton House.

Renan admired Jesus Christ "wholeheartedly."

But here dried ferns keep falling to the floor,

And something inside my head

Flaps like a worn-out blind. Royal Cortssoz is dead.

A blow to the Herald-Tribune. A closet mouse

Rattles the wrapper on the breakfast food. Renan

Admired Jesus Christ "wholeheartedly."

 Flaps like a worn-out blind. Cezanne

Would break out in the quiet streets of Aix

And shout, "Le monde, c'est terrible!" Royal

Cortissoz is dead. And something inside my head

Flaps like a worn-out blind. The soil

In which the ferns are dying needs more Vigoro.

There is no twilight on the moon, no mist or rain, 

No hail or snow, no life. Here in this house

 Dried ferns keep falling to the floor, a mouse

Rattles the wrapper on the breakfast food. Cezanne

Would break out in the quiet streets and scream. Renan

Admired Jesus Christ "wholeheartedly." And something inside my head

Flaps like a worn-out blind. Royal Cortissoz is dead.

There is no twilight on the moon, no hail or snow.

One notes fresh desecrations on the portico.

"Wondrous life!" cried Marvell at Appleton House. 
 Jeff Newberry
-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jul  2 11:04:38 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 11:04:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry
References: <90.60f648ca.2ff80231@cs.com>
Message-ID: <003101c57f17$60b57fd0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>

I know, and I did consider that. And look, I think it's a great idea. I like the focus on "American Life in Poetry," I like that it's going to newspapers. I don't consider him an enemy of poetry for not including rebuses. But it still reads too much like your junior high school music appreciation teacher. 

Well, your junior high school music appreciation teacher and mine, not anyone's today. They don't have them any more. So maybe I'm being too harsh. But I'd still like to see just a little more. Maybe he should turn the project over to me.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 10:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry


  In a message dated 7/2/2005 2:32:46 AM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: 


    http://www.americanlifeinpoetry.org/index.html
      
    Has anyone looked at this website? It's Ted Kooser's contribution to the laureateship business of promoting poetry. I don't have any objection to the concept of providing a free column of poetry and brief intros to newspapers, and I don't have any serious objections to the poems, which are OK to good, but Kooser's intros are so awful. Is that really the best he can do?


  Well, consider that he's aiming at a non-poetry-reading audience. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jul  2 11:08:39 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 11:08:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Weldon Kees
References: <731bb17a05070207534b7d72b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c57f17$f06e8f40$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>

He's right...Kees remains most famous for not being famous, and for resisting all attempts by his admirers, who are passionate in that modest, Donald Justice way of passion, to enlarge his reputation. Henri Coulette is a little bit the same way. We know how good they are. And the attempts go on, now in the New Yorker a half century later. I wonder if it'll ever click. It does occasionally, with some writers.




Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 10:53 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] On Weldon Kees


  Anthony Lane has a interesting and well-written piece over at The New Yorker's website.  It's too big to post here, I think, but I'll blurb a passage I like (but may not totally agree):
  Half a century later, what remains? Most people have never heard of Kees. A handful may hum and frown, then mention an anthology of verse in which his name cropped up. Longtime readers of this magazine may recall a poem or two that appeared in these pages. "The Collected Poems of Weldon Kees," edited by Donald Justice, was published in 1960. There has been a devout effort to revive, or perhaps create, his reputation, yet the impact has been limited. Something about Kees, in his afterlife as in his life, feels determined to elude any ambitions we may harbor on his behalf. Poets seem more readily enthused than scholars by his example, yet even that enthusiasm has a gleam of the cultish, as if Kees had hailed from (and returned to) a flickering underworld. Every now and then, one finds a fellow-Keesian?somebody who has picked up the scent of the mysterious figure and followed the trail. And that trail always leads to the same place. Not to the movies, or to the paintings; not to the short stories, or to the fruitless novels; not even to the poems, the crucible and crown of his achievement. Instead, we are led ad infinitum: to the Golden Gate, and to the empty Plymouth; to what did or did not happen next, and so to the reflection, as in a rearview mirror, of all that had come before. 

  Find the whole article here:  http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/

  Jeff Newberry

  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/


   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Jul  2 11:22:54 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 11:22:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry
Message-ID: <6a.588e3f6c.2ff80b4e@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/2/2005 10:05:11 AM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org 
writes: 
>  
>  Well, your junior high school music appreciation teacher and mine, not 
> anyone's today. They don't have them any more. So maybe I'm being too harsh. But 
> I'd still like to see just a little more. Maybe he should turn the project 
> over to me.
>   
>   
> 
They don't have music teachers anymore?  Alas.  One of the bright spots of 
the elementary school week.
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Jul  2 12:27:23 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:27:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Hugh Hefner poem
Message-ID: <s2c67a2d.050@mail.highland.edu>

Tad Richards referred to my interview at Jacket with Rachel Loden. Here
is the URL.

http://www.jacketmagazine.com/21/loden-iv.html 

Rachel Loden is simply one of the best reads in poetry going.

Kent


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jul  2 13:31:20 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 13:31:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry
References: <90.60f648ca.2ff80231@cs.com>
	<003101c57f17$60b57fd0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <006001c57f2b$dce03690$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The moron absolutely is an enemy of poetry.  Not merely for not including poems of the kind the Mole is so ignorant of as to miscall "rebuses," but for including NO poems except Iowa plaintext lyrics of the kind schoolchildren will be exposed to without his help, and "learn" the same trite things about in their texts and from their teachers as Kooser discloses.  On top of it, the column goes out free to newspapers, thus competing with anyone else who might have a good poetry column for newspapers.  Kooser's major crime, however, is in not even attempting to use his office and influence (and taxpayer dollars) to expose the full range of contemporary American Poetry.  In fact, he doesn't even expose Wilshberia!  

--Bob G. 
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Sat Jul  2 13:47:33 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 01:47:33 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] What does it mean to be a successful poet?
	(Kazmandu@aol.com)
Message-ID: <a05100300beec7ec4b2f8@[204.215.202.62]>

Sir Kaz,

You may be right. This mysterious poet, foremost in our tongue, 
_Mother Goose_, may have been female, indeed, certain experts like 
Margaret McCloskey-Padgett believe her to have been a cone-hatted 
(crone face: carcanet-framed) witch!
But, a benevolent one, like your Conservative Auntie.  Strict, but 
fair.  With visions.

To my ear, of course, the following lines, sonically, seem made by a 
male imagination:

>Hark! Hark! The dogs do bark!
>    The beggars are coming to town.
>Some in jags, and some in rags,
>    And some in velvet gown.


Unlikely, it seems to me, that your villains, the mass international 
corporations, would advance such an ideology, or advice, as given 
here.  Instead, our side counterattacks the RadLibs who would use 
certain gowned judges in Kitarchic tyranny to seize the property that 
is in the way of their UN tax base potential.  No.  Whether the 
beggar/

A beggar approached me in the street last twilight, dressed like a 
jester; he veered toward me and started to whisper something as if 
sharing a confidence.
But, I marched forward, my gaze blank and pitiless, and he had to 
pull up short, and toe-dance around me, surprised that his stratagem 
had proven unrealistic regarding his mark.

/is in jags or in the gowns of puffed up barristers working for the 
Fixer elites, _Mother Goose_ knows a grift what she sniffs one, and 
what's more, is preparted to counterattack!  This is why my forces 
have moved on Swinger Voter Judge Souter's New Hampshire villa and 
solicited the town to seize it HA!HA!HEE!HEE! and turn it into the 
"Lost Liberty Hotel," a new chain inspired by the writings of Ayn 
Rand, whose forebear may very well have been this _Mother Goose_!

I prefer to believe that _Mother "Ayn Rand" Goose_, like me,  cannot 
be assimilated into the RadLib Corporate Bildersburger elite. Talk 
about beggars in velvet gown.

Regardless, whoever wrote these lines, they are immortal. Accurate. 
Ancient.  Strange poetry.

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n










>
>
>
>Richard,
>I do not think you understand the nature of delusions of grandeur! We ARE 
>successful poets ... If we were not then we would not have the 
>energy to produce
>  our great earth shattering creations HAHA HEHE HAHA! The only reason mother
>goose is popular is because she used the same advertising agency as
>McDonalds,  Pizza Hut, Taco Bell and KFC which of course are the 
>most successful
>hamburger  pizza taco and chicken respectively.
>Your friend and  mine,
>Kaz  Maslanka
>_http://www.kazmaslanka.com_ (http://www.kazmaslanka.com/)
>
>
>
>>   What Mr. Cooley is really asking is: What  does it mean to be a
>>   SUCCESSFUL poet?
>
>In my view, of  course, he isn't asking: "What's it like to be a  poet?"
>
>>Crisman,
>>        I think the  reason there is little response to the question
>>"what does it mean to  be a poet?" is that the question is too large.
>>Me ? personally I know  I am an artist because I have personally
>>sacrificed the majority of my  love-life and finances to pursue
>>something that has returned nothing  to me but delusions of grandeur.
>>I believe only a muse-possessed  artist lives that kind of existence.
>>
>Kaz
>
>I have updated my  initial response to Mr. Cooley which led to my
>assertion that _Mother  Goose_ is the foremost poet in our tongue.
>There will be more to come from  me on both this subject and author in
>a forthcoming  post.
>

-- 


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul  3 03:54:32 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 09:54:32 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Hugh Hefner poem
References: <s2c67a2d.050@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <03a201c57fa4$732efaf0$d8af3252@ANNY>

A highly refined poetry, I agree.

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.


From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 6:27 PM


> Tad Richards referred to my interview at Jacket with Rachel Loden. Here
> is the URL.
>
> http://www.jacketmagazine.com/21/loden-iv.html
>
> Rachel Loden is simply one of the best reads in poetry going.
>
> Kent




From d.kellogg at neu.edu  Sun Jul  3 12:48:53 2005
From: d.kellogg at neu.edu (d.kellogg at neu.edu)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:48:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
Message-ID: <OF0E6B5C4C.9D77EC37-ON85257033.005BE9B0-85257033.005C5C8A@neu.edu>

I don't think Kooser is an enemy of poetry per se, but the "poems" he's 
putting forward aren't exactly its friends.  I'm not sure what the Old 
Mole wants: _more_ commentary?  For stuff as banal as that?  Thinking 
about it, the project makes me actually angry: there seems to be a guiding 
assumption that newspaper readers are stupid. 

David Kellogg
Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines
Department of English
465 Holmes Hall
Northeastern University
Boston, MA 02115
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jul  3 13:32:25 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:32:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <OF0E6B5C4C.9D77EC37-ON85257033.005BE9B0-85257033.005C5C8A@neu.edu>
Message-ID: <007101c57ff5$309c6c80$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>

I'm not starting out with the premise that the poetry is worthless. That's a matter of taste, and I'm allowing Kooser his. He's not trying to reach the people on this list, or even people who read Poetry Daily. He's not trying to reach people who would ever use, or care about, terms like "burstnorm" or "Iowa plaintext."  He thinks that this poetry will reach the local newspaper-reading audience, and I can't accept the idea that anyone who doesn't like what I like is stupid. If you're going to lash out at the banality and superciliousness of anyone who would publish poems by David Wagoner and Marge Piercy, you're gonna need to start a long way before Ted Kooser and this project. . 


So yeah, my problem was with his prose intros. I thought they read like the "Discussion Points" you'd find in a high school anthology called "Reading Can Be Fun" or some such. I think he's underestimating his audience in that respect.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: d.kellogg at neu.edu 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 12:48 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry



  I don't think Kooser is an enemy of poetry per se, but the "poems" he's putting forward aren't exactly its friends.  I'm not sure what the Old Mole wants: _more_ commentary?  For stuff as banal as that?  Thinking about it, the project makes me actually angry: there seems to be a guiding assumption that newspaper readers are stupid.   

  David Kellogg
  Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines
  Department of English
  465 Holmes Hall
  Northeastern University
  Boston, MA 02115


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Jul  3 13:40:03 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:40:03 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
Message-ID: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/3/2005 11:49:43 AM Central Daylight Time, 
d.kellogg at neu.edu writes: 
> I don't think Kooser is an enemy of poetry per se, but the "poems" he's 
> putting forward aren't exactly its friends.  I'm not sure what the Old Mole 
> wants: _more_ commentary?  For stuff as banal as that?  Thinking about it, the 
> project makes me actually angry: there seems to be a guiding assumption that 
> newspaper readers are stupid.   
> 
It would be interesting to see a list of papers using this column.  I wonder, 
has anyone seen the column in an actual newspaper?
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jul  3 14:54:48 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 14:54:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com>
Message-ID: <008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>

Was thinking the same thing -- and thinking it odd that there's no list on the site of papers it appears in,


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 1:40 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry


  In a message dated 7/3/2005 11:49:43 AM Central Daylight Time, d.kellogg at neu.edu writes: 

    I don't think Kooser is an enemy of poetry per se, but the "poems" he's putting forward aren't exactly its friends.  I'm not sure what the Old Mole wants: _more_ commentary?  For stuff as banal as that?  Thinking about it, the project makes me actually angry: there seems to be a guiding assumption that newspaper readers are stupid.   


  It would be interesting to see a list of papers using this column.  I wonder, has anyone seen the column in an actual newspaper? 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jul  3 15:40:50 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:40:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com>
	<008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <007301c58007$2030c280$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

My guess is that few or no newspapers run it as a regular column but occasionally use it as a filler.  I think the poems are okay.  I actually don't think the commentary is horrible.  Just wish the Poetry Establishment would not focus on so narrow a part of American Poetry--on so limited an audience.

How about this: a column with an "accessible" poem and Kooser-level commentary PLUS a more demanding mainstream poem with commentary PLUS a burstnorm poem with commentary?  Or, if that would make the column too long, alternate columns of paried poems, one week using accessible and more difficult mainstream poems and the next week using accessible and burstnorm?

Mr. Same Old Same Old Same Old
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul  3 16:11:55 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:11:55 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Kuenstler's reading
Message-ID: <007201c5800b$8679ec20$1da33852@ANNY>

>From Nick Piombino's blog
http://nickpiombino.blogspot.com/

I was sent to listen to Frank Kuenstler's
The Carols and the Smiles:
http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Kuenstler.html




Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jul  3 17:13:59 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:13:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com><008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<007301c58007$2030c280$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00bd01c58014$23e21ed0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>

You're not dealing with the poetry establishment here. You're dealing with newspaper publishers.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 3:40 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry


  My guess is that few or no newspapers run it as a regular column but occasionally use it as a filler.  I think the poems are okay.  I actually don't think the commentary is horrible.  Just wish the Poetry Establishment would not focus on so narrow a part of American Poetry--on so limited an audience.

  How about this: a column with an "accessible" poem and Kooser-level commentary PLUS a more demanding mainstream poem with commentary PLUS a burstnorm poem with commentary?  Or, if that would make the column too long, alternate columns of paried poems, one week using accessible and more difficult mainstream poems and the next week using accessible and burstnorm?

  Mr. Same Old Same Old Same Old


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sun Jul  3 17:17:51 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:17:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Yvor Winters
Message-ID: <731bb17a0507031417359b0648@mail.gmail.com>

>From another newspaper column about poetry:
 A Summer Commentary
 When I was young, with sharper sense,
The farthest insect cry I heard
Could stay me; through the trees, intense,
I watched the hunter and the bird.
Where is the meaning that I found?
Or was it but a state of mind,
Some old penumbra of the ground,
In which to be but not to find?
Now summer grasses, brown with heat,
Have crowded sweetness through the air;
The very roadside dust is sweet;
Even the unshadowed earth is fair.
The soft voice of the nesting dove,
And the dove in soft erratic flight
Like a rapid hand within a glove,
Caress the silence and the light.
Amid the rubble, the fallen fruit,
Fermenting in its rich decay,
Smears brandy on the trampling boot
And sends it sweeter on its way.
    Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Jul  3 17:23:38 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:23:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry
In-Reply-To: <006001c57f2b$dce03690$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BEEDCF98.DF4%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 7/2/05 1:31 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

  Kooser's major crime, however, is in not even attempting to use his office
and influence (and taxpayer dollars) to expose the full range of
contemporary American Poetry.
_______________________________

On this charge, the verdict is Not Guilty.  The position of
Laureate/Consultant is privately funded.  Since Kooser's offering his column
free to any readers who are interested,  it's hard to see any real harm
here.  I mean, I could offer a free column, too, if I chose; and so could
Ron Silliman.  

Still, I agree with Tad.  In their Poet's Choice columns, Hass, Pinsky,
Hirsch, and Dove have written much meatier commentaries than Kooser's, and
shown a broader range of taste.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul  3 17:35:28 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 23:35:28 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Yvor Winters
References: <731bb17a0507031417359b0648@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003101c58017$221323d0$207c3652@ANNY>

I like these lines:

The farthest insect cry I heard
Could stay me; through the trees, intense,

and also these:

Where is the meaning that I found?
Or was it but a state of mind, 
Some old penumbra of the ground,
In which to be but not to find?

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:17 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Yvor Winters


  From another newspaper column about poetry:

  A Summer Commentary
   
  When I was young, with sharper sense,
  The farthest insect cry I heard
  Could stay me; through the trees, intense,
  I watched the hunter and the bird.
  Where is the meaning that I found?
  Or was it but a state of mind, 
  Some old penumbra of the ground,
  In which to be but not to find?
  Now summer grasses, brown with heat,
  Have crowded sweetness through the air;
  The very roadside dust is sweet;
  Even the unshadowed earth is fair. 
  The soft voice of the nesting dove,
  And the dove in soft erratic flight
  Like a rapid hand within a glove,
  Caress the silence and the light.
  Amid the rubble, the fallen fruit,
  Fermenting in its rich decay, 
  Smears brandy on the trampling boot
  And sends it sweeter on its way.
   



  Jeff Newberry

  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jul  3 17:38:15 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:38:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry
References: <BEEDCF98.DF4%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00fa01c58017$882d23f0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>

American Life in PoetryA Lexis-Nexis search finds it in:

 Omaha World-Herald 
 Lincoln Journal Star (Nebraska) 
 The Capital Times (Madison, Wisconsin) 
 News & Record (Greensboro, NC) 
Chicago Tribune

And articles on it in the LA Times and Seattle Post-Intelligencer.





Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 5:23 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry


  on 7/2/05 1:31 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

   Kooser's major crime, however, is in not even attempting to use his office and influence (and taxpayer dollars) to expose the full range of contemporary American Poetry. 
  _______________________________

  On this charge, the verdict is Not Guilty.  The position of Laureate/Consultant is privately funded.  Since Kooser's offering his column free to any readers who are interested,  it's hard to see any real harm here.  I mean, I could offer a free column, too, if I chose; and so could Ron Silliman.  

  Still, I agree with Tad.  In their Poet's Choice columns, Hass, Pinsky, Hirsch, and Dove have written much meatier commentaries than Kooser's, and shown a broader range of taste.


  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Sun Jul  3 17:45:19 2005
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 16:45:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c58017$882d23f0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <BEEDCF98.DF4%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<00fa01c58017$882d23f0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050703164332.044acb40@mail.ilstu.edu>

And on Sunday June 12, at least, the Champaign, IL News-Gazette (somebody 
just sent me a clipping).

At 04:38 PM 7/3/2005, you wrote:
>A Lexis-Nexis search finds it in:
>
>  Omaha World-Herald
>  Lincoln Journal Star (Nebraska)
>  The Capital Times (Madison, Wisconsin)
>  News & Record (Greensboro, NC)
>Chicago Tribune
>
>And articles on it in the LA Times and Seattle Post-Intelligencer.
>
>
>
>
>
>Tad Richards
><http://www.opus40.org>www.opus40.org
>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>David Graham
>To: <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News 
>&amp; Views
>Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 5:23 PM
>Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry
>
>on 7/2/05 1:31 PM, Bob Grumman at 
><mailto:bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:
>
>  Kooser's major crime, however, is in not even attempting to use his 
> office and influence (and taxpayer dollars) to expose the full range of 
> contemporary American Poetry.
>_______________________________
>
>On this charge, the verdict is Not Guilty.  The position of 
>Laureate/Consultant is privately funded.  Since Kooser's offering his 
>column free to any readers who are interested,  it's hard to see any real 
>harm here.  I mean, I could offer a free column, too, if I chose; and so 
>could Ron Silliman.
>
>Still, I agree with Tad.  In their Poet's Choice columns, Hass, Pinsky, 
>Hirsch, and Dove have written much meatier commentaries than Kooser's, and 
>shown a broader range of taste.
>
>
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================
>
>
>----------
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jul  3 17:46:34 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:46:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com><008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><007301c58007$2030c280$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00bd01c58014$23e21ed0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <00a901c58018$afaa6f40$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

You're not dealing with the poetry establishment here. You're dealing with newspaper publishers.

Tad Richards


Ah, and there's no connection between The Poetry Establishment and the identity of the person who is Poet Laureate, or between either  and what newspapers will likely publish?

--Bob G.
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jul  3 17:50:26 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:50:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com><008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><007301c58007$2030c280$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c58014$23e21ed0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00a901c58018$afaa6f40$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002901c58019$3c002f70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I would say that even for the Poet Laureate, burstnorm poetry would be a harder sell to the Omaha World-Herald.

Hell, it's a harder sell to me, but then I'm a well-known enemy of poetry.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 5:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry


  You're not dealing with the poetry establishment here. You're dealing with newspaper publishers.

  Tad Richards


  Ah, and there's no connection between The Poetry Establishment and the identity of the person who is Poet Laureate, or between either  and what newspapers will likely publish?

  --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul  3 18:21:53 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 00:21:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com><008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><007301c58007$2030c280$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c58014$23e21ed0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><00a901c58018$afaa6f40$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002901c58019$3c002f70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <007501c5801d$9d8170c0$207c3652@ANNY>

I particularly like _the enemies of poetry_,
take care, Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Old Mole 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry


  I would say that even for the Poet Laureate, burstnorm poetry would be a harder sell to the Omaha World-Herald.

  Hell, it's a harder sell to me, but then I'm a well-known enemy of poetry.


  Tad Richards
  www.opus40.org
  http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Grumman 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 5:46 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry


    You're not dealing with the poetry establishment here. You're dealing with newspaper publishers.

    Tad Richards


    Ah, and there's no connection between The Poetry Establishment and the identity of the person who is Poet Laureate, or between either  and what newspapers will likely publish?

    --Bob G.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jul  3 18:41:47 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:41:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Life in Poetry
References: <BEEDCF98.DF4%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00db01c58020$656d5520$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

American Life in Poetry
 Kooser's major crime, however, is in not even attempting to use his office and influence (and taxpayer dollars) to expose the full range of contemporary American Poetry. 
_______________________________

On this charge, the verdict is Not Guilty.  The position of Laureate/Consultant is privately funded.  Since Kooser's offering his column free to any readers who are interested,  it's hard to see any real harm here.  I mean, I could offer a free column, too, if I chose; and so could Ron Silliman.  

No government subsidy of any kind?  No government involvement in choice of laureate?  I find that hard to believe.  Why is Kooser called the U.S. Poet Laureate (or whatever title given him--which I'm sure connects to the U.S.)?

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jul  3 18:46:44 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:46:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com><008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><007301c58007$2030c280$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c58014$23e21ed0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><00a901c58018$afaa6f40$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002901c58019$3c002f70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <00fe01c58021$16d34db0$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I would say that even for the Poet Laureate, burstnorm poetry would be a harder sell to the Omaha World-Herald.

I would say you're wrong: the Omaha World-Herald looks mainly at who the columnist is, not the content.  And there are a lot of burstnorm poems every bit as accessible as the stuff Kooser pushes.  Plus, my suggestion was to include mainstream poems.  Aside from that, are you really saying that people who will read articles in newspapers about the Fermi Theorem, wouldn't read about burstnorm poetry?  If ever given a chance?

--Bob G.


  Hell, it's a harder sell to me, but then I'm a well-known enemy of poetry.


  Tad Richards
  www.opus40.org
  http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Grumman 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 5:46 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry


    You're not dealing with the poetry establishment here. You're dealing with newspaper publishers.

    Tad Richards


    Ah, and there's no connection between The Poetry Establishment and the identity of the person who is Poet Laureate, or between either  and what newspapers will likely publish?

    --Bob G.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sun Jul  3 18:52:12 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:52:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
In-Reply-To: <007501c5801d$9d8170c0$207c3652@ANNY>
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com>
	<008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<007301c58007$2030c280$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00bd01c58014$23e21ed0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00a901c58018$afaa6f40$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002901c58019$3c002f70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<007501c5801d$9d8170c0$207c3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05070315525861a698@mail.gmail.com>

What about the Poetry Gestapo? Or the Axis of Plainlay? 
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/3/05, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote: 
> 
> I particularly like _the enemies of poetry_,
> take care, Anny
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> *From:* The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> 
> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:50 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
> 
>  I would say that even for the Poet Laureate, burstnorm poetry would be a 
> harder sell to the Omaha World-Herald.
>  Hell, it's a harder sell to me, but then I'm a well-known enemy of 
> poetry.
>   Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org/>
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> *From:* Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> 
> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 03, 2005 5:46 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
> 
>  You're not dealing with the poetry establishment here. You're dealing 
> with newspaper publishers.
>  Tad Richards
>   Ah, and there's no connection between The Poetry Establishment and the 
> identity of the person who is Poet Laureate, or between either and what 
> newspapers will likely publish?
>  --Bob G.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jul  3 19:28:53 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:28:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com><008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><007301c58007$2030c280$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c58014$23e21ed0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><00a901c58018$afaa6f40$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002901c58019$3c002f70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><007501c5801d$9d8170c0$207c3652@ANNY>
	<731bb17a05070315525861a698@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013a01c58026$f9d86c30$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

What about the Poetry Gestapo?  Or the Axis of Plainlay? 

Actually, neither is involved, Jeff.  I know you won't understand this but it's possible to believe there are people who have a negative influence on the state of American Poetry, and even to call them Enemies of Poetry, without believing in some kind of conspiracy.

--Bob G.
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jul  3 21:08:04 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:08:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com><008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><007301c58007$2030c280$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c58014$23e21ed0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><00a901c58018$afaa6f40$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002901c58019$3c002f70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><007501c5801d$9d8170c0$207c3652@ANNY><731bb17a05070315525861a698@mail.gmail.com>
	<013a01c58026$f9d86c30$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002b01c58034$d7745fb0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Enemies without a conspiracy?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: Jeff Newberry ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 7:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry


  What about the Poetry Gestapo?  Or the Axis of Plainlay? 

  Actually, neither is involved, Jeff.  I know you won't understand this but it's possible to believe there are people who have a negative influence on the state of American Poetry, and even to call them Enemies of Poetry, without believing in some kind of conspiracy.

  --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul  4 07:09:11 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 07:09:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <1fa.bc3f814.2ff97cf3@cs.com><008001c58000$b2655d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><007301c58007$2030c280$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c58014$23e21ed0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><00a901c58018$afaa6f40$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002901c58019$3c002f70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><007501c5801d$9d8170c0$207c3652@ANNY><731bb17a05070315525861a698@mail.gmail.com><013a01c58026$f9d86c30$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002b01c58034$d7745fb0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <001401c58088$ceea8230$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Enemies without a conspiracy?

Tad Richards

Hard to believe, but true, Mole.

--BG
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul  4 09:44:51 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:44:51 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Grandt=2C_J=FCrgen_E=2E_=5FKinds_of_?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Blue=3A_The_Jazz_Aesthetic_in_African_American?=
Message-ID: <001601c5809e$8e094f10$e98d3052@ANNY>

From: Jurgen Grandt [mailto:jugrandt at uga.edu] 
Sent: 3 juli 2005 16:29


Grandt, J?rgen E. _Kinds of Blue: The Jazz Aesthetic in African American
Narrative_. Columbus: Ohio State University Press, 2004.

In this fresh and stimulating book, the author analyzes African American
prose through the lens of a literary jazz aesthetic. While there is a
substantial body of jazz criticism of poetry, African American narrative has
not drawn as much critical attention. _Kinds of Blue_ probes not how African
American authors write about jazz, but how African American narratives are
jazz -- in other words, how they attempt to wrest beautiful art from the
terrors of American history, to improvise a meaningful narrative of freedom
over the dissonant sound clusters of the American experience.

This book combines analyses of select jazz performances with close readings
of literary works by Sidney Bechet, Ann Petry, Langston Hughes, Ralph
Ellison, Amiri Baraka, Hans Janowitz, and Toni Morrison. The jazz aesthetic
is inextricably grounded in the black experience in America -- and yet, at
the same time, its inherent hybridity challenges the received categories of
white and black, oppression and freedom, the past and the present, the New
World and the Old (Europe, Africa, even Asia), the individual and the
collective, tradition and innovation, even jazz and 'non- jazz.'

Considering the frequency with which musicians, critics, and musicologists
reference the two major tropes of storytelling and language acquisition when
discussing the art of jazz improvisation, it appears that this music can
offer heretofore untapped opportunities to further our understanding of the
African American literary tradition as a whole.

J?rgen E. Grandt is an instructor in the English Department at the
University of Georgia.

208 pp. 6x9
$21.95 paper 0-8142-5132-3
$59.95 cloth 0-8142-0980-7
$9.95 CD 0-8142-9065-5

______________________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Mon Jul  4 10:23:40 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:23:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros
Message-ID: <146.47ba9214.2ffaa06c@aol.com>

Here's a recent column from Kooser. I wonder what Kooser intends his column 
to be: an introduction to poetry classroom lecture? a graduate seminar in 
american poetic theory? coffee-klatch chatter among poetry-appreciating friends? a 
space where poems can "be not mean?"   How would others offer/introduce this 
poem to a newspaper-reading audience?

Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from AMERICAN LIFE IN POETRY


Often everyday experiences provide poets with inspiration. Here Georgiana 
Cohen observes a woman looking out her window and compares the woman to the 
sunset. The woman's "slumped" chin, the fence that separates them, and the 
"beached" cars set the poem's tone; this is clearly not a celebration of the 
neighborhood. Yet by turning to clouds, sky, and breath, Cohen underscores the scene's 
fragile grace.


Old Woman in a Housecoat

An old woman in
a floor-length housecoat
has become sunset
to me, west-facing.
Turquoise, sage, or rose,
she leans out of her
second floor window,
chin slumped in her palm,
and gazes at the
fenced property line
between us, the cars
beached in the driveway,
the creeping slide of
light across shingles.
When the window shuts,
dusk becomes blush and
bruises, projected
on vinyl siding.
Housecoats breathe across
the sky like frail clouds.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Jul  4 10:46:08 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:46:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros
Message-ID: <128.60105830.2ffaa5b0@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/4/2005 9:24:22 AM Central Daylight Time, Thom424 at aol.com 
writes: 
> 
> Here's a recent column from Kooser. I wonder what Kooser intends his column 
> to be: an introduction to poetry classroom lecture? a graduate seminar in 
> american poetic theory? coffee-klatch chatter among poetry-appreciating friends? 
> a space where poems can "be not mean?"  How would others offer/introduce 
> this poem to a newspaper-reading audience?
> 
> Thom Tammaro
> Moorhead, MN
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> from AMERICAN LIFE IN POETRY
> 
> 
> Often everyday experiences provide poets with inspiration. Here Georgiana 
> Cohen observes a woman looking out her window and compares the woman to the 
> sunset. The woman's "slumped" chin, the fence that separates them, and the 
> "beached" cars set the poem's tone; this is clearly not a celebration of the 
> neighborhood. Yet by turning to clouds, sky, and breath, Cohen underscores the 
> scene's fragile grace.
> 
> 
> Old Woman in a Housecoat
> 
> An old woman in
> a floor-length housecoat
> has become sunset
> to me, west-facing.
> Turquoise, sage, or rose,
> she leans out of her
> second floor window,
> chin slumped in her palm,
> and gazes at the
> fenced property line
> between us, the cars
> beached in the driveway,
> the creeping slide of
> light across shingles.
> When the window shuts,
> dusk becomes blush and
> bruises, projected
> on vinyl siding.
> Housecoats breathe across
> the sky like frail clouds.
> 
A better question might be: how does the speaker know it's a floor-length 
housecoat if the woman is leaning out of a second-story window?  And who is 
facing west, the woman or the observer?
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul  4 11:10:30 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:10:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros
References: <128.60105830.2ffaa5b0@cs.com>
Message-ID: <006d01c580aa$84e08730$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Often everyday experiences provide poets with inspiration. Here Georgiana Cohen observes a woman looking out her window and compares the woman to the sunset. The woman's "slumped" chin, the fence that separates them, and the "beached" cars set the poem's tone; this is clearly not a celebration of the neighborhood. Yet by turning to clouds, sky, and breath, Cohen underscores the scene's fragile grace.


Old Woman in a Housecoat

An old woman in
a floor-length housecoat
has become sunset
to me, west-facing.
Turquoise, sage, or rose,
she leans out of her
second floor window,
chin slumped in her palm,
and gazes at the
fenced property line
between us, the cars
beached in the driveway,
the creeping slide of
light across shingles.
When the window shuts,
dusk becomes blush and
bruises, projected
on vinyl siding.
Housecoats breathe across
the sky like frail clouds.


  A better question might be: how does the speaker know it's a floor-length housecoat if the woman is leaning out of a second-story window?  And who is facing west, the woman or the observer? 
  RS Gwynn

  Same questions occurred to me.  I decided the speaker had an angle down on the old woman and/or had seen her in the housecoat before, so knew its length, and that the old woman was facing west--because the dusk is said to be reflected on the vinyl siding the speaker, I assume, is looking at after the window shuts.  If I was the poet's workshop teacher, I'd have suggested "though facing west" instead of 
  "west-facing."  And maybe "in/ HER floor-length housecoat" rather than "in/ A floor-length housecoat"--to suggest the speaker knows of the housecoat from seeing it other times.

  I do think getting these details right is important.  Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think.



  --Bob G.






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From tad at opus40.org  Mon Jul  4 12:34:53 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:34:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros
References: <128.60105830.2ffaa5b0@cs.com>
	<006d01c580aa$84e08730$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <003501c580b6$52d410c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

>>Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. <<


Spoken like a taxonomist. And in this case, meant as a compliment. That's well-observed and well-put, and I suspect I'll use it in the future.



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 11:10 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros


  Often everyday experiences provide poets with inspiration. Here Georgiana Cohen observes a woman looking out her window and compares the woman to the sunset. The woman's "slumped" chin, the fence that separates them, and the "beached" cars set the poem's tone; this is clearly not a celebration of the neighborhood. Yet by turning to clouds, sky, and breath, Cohen underscores the scene's fragile grace.


  Old Woman in a Housecoat

  An old woman in
  a floor-length housecoat
  has become sunset
  to me, west-facing.
  Turquoise, sage, or rose,
  she leans out of her
  second floor window,
  chin slumped in her palm,
  and gazes at the
  fenced property line
  between us, the cars
  beached in the driveway,
  the creeping slide of
  light across shingles.
  When the window shuts,
  dusk becomes blush and
  bruises, projected
  on vinyl siding.
  Housecoats breathe across
  the sky like frail clouds.


    A better question might be: how does the speaker know it's a floor-length housecoat if the woman is leaning out of a second-story window?  And who is facing west, the woman or the observer? 
    RS Gwynn 

    Same questions occurred to me.  I decided the speaker had an angle down on the old woman and/or had seen her in the housecoat before, so knew its length, and that the old woman was facing west--because the dusk is said to be reflected on the vinyl siding the speaker, I assume, is looking at after the window shuts.  If I was the poet's workshop teacher, I'd have suggested "though facing west" instead of 
    "west-facing."  And maybe "in/ HER floor-length housecoat" rather than "in/ A floor-length housecoat"--to suggest the speaker knows of the housecoat from seeing it other times. 

    I do think getting these details right is important.  Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. 

     

    --Bob G. 

     

     





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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Jul  4 12:51:18 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:51:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
Message-ID: <s2c922e5.050@mail.highland.edu>

>I know you won't understand this but it's possible to believe there are
people who have a negative influence on the state of American Poetry,
and even to call them Enemies of Poetry, without believing in some kind
of conspiracy.<

I don't believe Ted Kooser has any kind of "negative influence" on the
state of American poetry. In what ways would the non-existence of his
aesthetic make American poetry "better"? There is never an "American
poetry," anyway. There are American poetrIES. It's a swarming,
interdependent field. Thesis, antithesis, fractal swirling, and all
that.

In fact, Bob, and I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way at all, just
as a statement of fact, and to me it seems pretty obvious and evident:
Without the "Kooser aesthetic" your oppositional, marginalized aesthetic
goes into non-existence. You should *thank* your "enemies," for without
them, you would have a lot less to talk about, really.

I think Ted Kooser is one of the best things to happen to "American
poetry" in a long time. And he's also probably a perfectly nice man. He
certainly has the most endearing ears of any living poet.

Kent



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  4 14:22:28 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:22:28 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
Message-ID: <200507041659.j64GvhRh138278@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

Yes, but if Ted Koppel was a poet, his ears might be a little cuter
in that elfin sort of way.

C

----------
>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
>Date: Mon, Jul 4, 2005, 8:51 AM
>

>  He
> certainly has the most endearing ears of any living poet.
>
> Kent


From tad at opus40.org  Mon Jul  4 13:13:57 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:13:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <200507041659.j64GvhRh138278@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <006c01c580bb$c628a7c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

And if Ted Kaczynski was a poet, we might REALLY have burstnorm.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Stroffolino " <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry


> Yes, but if Ted Koppel was a poet, his ears might be a little cuter
> in that elfin sort of way.
> 
> C
> 
> ----------
>>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
>>Date: Mon, Jul 4, 2005, 8:51 AM
>>
> 
>>  He
>> certainly has the most endearing ears of any living poet.
>>
>> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul  4 13:18:42 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:18:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros
References: <128.60105830.2ffaa5b0@cs.com><006d01c580aa$84e08730$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003501c580b6$52d410c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <008501c580bc$6e3018e0$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  >>Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. <<


  Spoken like a taxonomist. And in this case, meant as a compliment. That's well-observed and well-put, and I suspect I'll use it in the future.

  Thanks, Mole--unless it means we can't be enemies, anymore.

  --Bob G.

  Tad Richards
  www.opus40.org
  http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Grumman 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 11:10 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros


    Often everyday experiences provide poets with inspiration. Here Georgiana Cohen observes a woman looking out her window and compares the woman to the sunset. The woman's "slumped" chin, the fence that separates them, and the "beached" cars set the poem's tone; this is clearly not a celebration of the neighborhood. Yet by turning to clouds, sky, and breath, Cohen underscores the scene's fragile grace.


    Old Woman in a Housecoat

    An old woman in
    a floor-length housecoat
    has become sunset
    to me, west-facing.
    Turquoise, sage, or rose,
    she leans out of her
    second floor window,
    chin slumped in her palm,
    and gazes at the
    fenced property line
    between us, the cars
    beached in the driveway,
    the creeping slide of
    light across shingles.
    When the window shuts,
    dusk becomes blush and
    bruises, projected
    on vinyl siding.
    Housecoats breathe across
    the sky like frail clouds.


      A better question might be: how does the speaker know it's a floor-length housecoat if the woman is leaning out of a second-story window?  And who is facing west, the woman or the observer? 
      RS Gwynn 

      Same questions occurred to me.  I decided the speaker had an angle down on the old woman and/or had seen her in the housecoat before, so knew its length, and that the old woman was facing west--because the dusk is said to be reflected on the vinyl siding the speaker, I assume, is looking at after the window shuts.  If I was the poet's workshop teacher, I'd have suggested "though facing west" instead of 
      "west-facing."  And maybe "in/ HER floor-length housecoat" rather than "in/ A floor-length housecoat"--to suggest the speaker knows of the housecoat from seeing it other times. 

      I do think getting these details right is important.  Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. 


      --Bob G. 







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    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul  4 14:51:40 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:51:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
References: <s2c922e5.050@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <009301c580c9$6abadc60$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> >I know you won't understand this but it's possible to believe there are
> people who have a negative influence on the state of American Poetry,
> and even to call them Enemies of Poetry, without believing in some kind
> of conspiracy.<
>
> I don't believe Ted Kooser has any kind of "negative influence" on the
> state of American poetry. In what ways would the non-existence of his
> aesthetic make American poetry "better"?

There would be one less body blocking people from the full range of American 
poetry.  That would make the STATE of American poetry better.

> There is never an "American
> poetry," anyway. There are American poetrIES. It's a swarming,
> interdependent field. Thesis, antithesis, fractal swirling, and all
> that.

You're playing with words in a very silly way.

> In fact, Bob, and I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way at all, just
> as a statement of fact, and to me it seems pretty obvious and evident:
> Without the "Kooser aesthetic" your oppositional, marginalized aesthetic
> goes into non-existence. You should *thank* your "enemies," for without
> them, you would have a lot less to talk about, really.

My "aesthetic" has nothing to do with Kooser's, Kent, but I suspect you're 
too much of an agitpropper to be able to understand that.  Without Kooser 
and all the other very similar poetry stasguards, I'd have less to pop off 
about at New-Poetry, and on my blog, but I would still have more than enough 
to TALK about.  But we'll never be without Koosers.

> I think Ted Kooser is one of the best things to happen to "American
> poetry" in a long time.

I can't say I understand that.  What's different about him and Collins or 
any of the other recent stasguards in American Poetry?

--Bob G. 




From tad at opus40.org  Mon Jul  4 18:13:30 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:13:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros
References: <128.60105830.2ffaa5b0@cs.com><006d01c580aa$84e08730$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003501c580b6$52d410c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<008501c580bc$6e3018e0$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00a601c580e5$9ef09440$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Nah, you can always count on me to be a true enemy of poetry.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 1:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros



   
    >>Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. <<


    Spoken like a taxonomist. And in this case, meant as a compliment. That's well-observed and well-put, and I suspect I'll use it in the future.

    Thanks, Mole--unless it means we can't be enemies, anymore.

    --Bob G.

    Tad Richards
    www.opus40.org
    http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Bob Grumman 
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
      Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 11:10 AM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros


      Often everyday experiences provide poets with inspiration. Here Georgiana Cohen observes a woman looking out her window and compares the woman to the sunset. The woman's "slumped" chin, the fence that separates them, and the "beached" cars set the poem's tone; this is clearly not a celebration of the neighborhood. Yet by turning to clouds, sky, and breath, Cohen underscores the scene's fragile grace.


      Old Woman in a Housecoat

      An old woman in
      a floor-length housecoat
      has become sunset
      to me, west-facing.
      Turquoise, sage, or rose,
      she leans out of her
      second floor window,
      chin slumped in her palm,
      and gazes at the
      fenced property line
      between us, the cars
      beached in the driveway,
      the creeping slide of
      light across shingles.
      When the window shuts,
      dusk becomes blush and
      bruises, projected
      on vinyl siding.
      Housecoats breathe across
      the sky like frail clouds.


        A better question might be: how does the speaker know it's a floor-length housecoat if the woman is leaning out of a second-story window?  And who is facing west, the woman or the observer? 
        RS Gwynn 

        Same questions occurred to me.  I decided the speaker had an angle down on the old woman and/or had seen her in the housecoat before, so knew its length, and that the old woman was facing west--because the dusk is said to be reflected on the vinyl siding the speaker, I assume, is looking at after the window shuts.  If I was the poet's workshop teacher, I'd have suggested "though facing west" instead of 
        "west-facing."  And maybe "in/ HER floor-length housecoat" rather than "in/ A floor-length housecoat"--to suggest the speaker knows of the housecoat from seeing it other times. 

        I do think getting these details right is important.  Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. 


        --Bob G. 







--------------------------------------------------------------------------


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      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Jul  4 18:59:17 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:59:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry Again
Message-ID: <731bb17a050704155943ac065e@mail.gmail.com>

An article in *The Guardian* (
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1520560,00.html) dredges up Foetry 
again. 
 Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Jul  4 19:32:18 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:32:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Independence Day
Message-ID: <731bb17a05070416322283f130@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/07/03/walt_whitmans_world/
 Save us from the enemies of poetry, Uncle Walt. . . 
 Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au  Tue Jul  5 07:52:11 2005
From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:52:11 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter edition of Malleable Jangle now online 
In-Reply-To: <200502011700.j11H08An001253@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20050705115211.2691.qmail@web51401.mail.yahoo.com>

The Winter issue of Malleable Jangle AKA "The Orange Roses Edition" is now online. New poetry from Michael J Barney, Michael Estabrook, Jan Oskar Hansen, Richard Hillman, Peter Macrow, Sheila E Murphy, and Gregory Vincent  St. Thomas.
 
http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com/index.htm
 
Hope to see you there. All the best, Robert Lane.



Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings


		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
  Try Yahoo! Photomail Beta: Send up to 300 photos in one email! 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul  5 07:56:53 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:56:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter edition of Malleable Jangle now online 
References: <20050705115211.2691.qmail@web51401.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006101c58158$a2e810f0$b9af3452@ANNY>

l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings

this is excellent!
Thank you Robert Lane.

I will take my time with your links,
Anny Ballardini
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: robert lane 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:52 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter edition of Malleable Jangle now online 


      The Winter issue of Malleable Jangle AKA "The Orange Roses Edition" is now online. New poetry from Michael J Barney, Michael Estabrook, Jan Oskar Hansen, Richard Hillman, Peter Macrow, Sheila E Murphy, and Gregory Vincent  St. Thomas.

      http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com/index.htm

      Hope to see you there. All the best, Robert Lane.



    Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
    Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
    Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
    Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
    l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  Try Yahoo! Photomail Beta: Send up to 300 photos in one email! 


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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  5 08:54:33 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:54:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter edition of Malleable Jangle now online 
In-Reply-To: <20050705115211.2691.qmail@web51401.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050705115211.2691.qmail@web51401.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cef88cf1a4587385b7e181c02af0e932@earthlink.net>

Hmm, methinks you've confused Gregory with
one of those Virgins down in the Caribbean.

Hal   		Art & Plastic Surgery

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

On Jul 5, 2005, at 7:52 AM, robert lane wrote:

>>> The Winter issue of Malleable Jangle AKA?"The Orange Roses 
>>> Edition"?is now online. New poetry from Michael J Barney, Michael 
>>> Estabrook, Jan Oskar Hansen, Richard Hillman, Peter Macrow, Sheila E 
>>> Murphy, and Gregory Vincent? St. Thomas.
>>> ?
>>> http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com/index.htm
>>> ?
>>> Hope to see you there. All the best, Robert Lane.
>
>> Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com
>> Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
>> Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/?
>> Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au
>> l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummingsDo you Yahoo!?
>  Try Yahoo! Photomail Beta: Send up to 300 photos in one email! 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul  5 09:05:34 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:05:34 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter edition of Malleable Jangle now online 
References: <20050705115211.2691.qmail@web51401.mail.yahoo.com>
	<cef88cf1a4587385b7e181c02af0e932@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <008401c58162$3b130ed0$b9af3452@ANNY>

I think I was there, not with the Vincent.

Hal,
On a more private tone (baritone), if you found a way of inviting at least a 
couple plus another couple of a couple of us down there, Mexico is fine 
enough without taking to the wide open sea?

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:54 PM


> Hmm, methinks you've confused Gregory with
> one of those Virgins down in the Caribbean.
>
> Hal   Art & Plastic Surgery
>
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> On Jul 5, 2005, at 7:52 AM, robert lane wrote:
>
>>>> The Winter issue of Malleable Jangle AKA "The Orange Roses Edition" is 
>>>> now online. New poetry from Michael J Barney, Michael Estabrook, Jan 
>>>> Oskar Hansen, Richard Hillman, Peter Macrow, Sheila E Murphy, and 
>>>> Gregory Vincent St. Thomas.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com/index.htm
>>>>
>>>> Hope to see you there. All the best, Robert Lane.
>>
>>> Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com
>>> Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
>>> Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ Deja vu workshops: 
>>> dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au
>>> l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummingsDo you Yahoo!?
>>  Try Yahoo! Photomail Beta: Send up to 300 photos in one email! 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Jul  5 09:06:45 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:06:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Thom Gunn
Message-ID: <731bb17a05070506067cf6263@mail.gmail.com>

The Butcher's Son

 Mr. Pierce the butcher

Got news his son was missing

About a month before

The closing of the war.

A bald man, tall and careful,

He stood in his shop and found

No bottom to his sadness,

Nowhere for it to stop.

When my aunt came through the door

Delivering the milk,

He spoke, with his quiet air

Of a considerate teacher,

But words weren't up to it,

He turned back to the meat.

The message was in error.

Later that humid summer

At a local high school fete,

I saw, returned, the son

Still in his uniform.

Mr Pierce was not there

But was as if implied

In the son who looked like him

Except he had red hair.

For I recall him well

Encircled by his friends,

Beaming a life charged now

Doubly because restored,

And recall also how

Within his hearty smile

His lips contained his father's

Like a light within the light

That he turned everywhere. 

 from *Boss Cupid*, Farrar, Straus, & Giroux (2001)
** 
** 
** 
Jeff Newberry
 *-- 
*"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Jul  5 09:24:46 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:24:46 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Hobsbaum
References: <731bb17a05070506067cf6263@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005301c58164$ea7bc5e0$db309b51@Robin>

I am sad to announce that Philip Hobsbaum died last week at the age of seventy three.

A poet, critic and teacher, Philip was closely involved with writers in Cambridge, London, Belfast and Glasgow, where he taught from 1966.

His experience in Belfast was recorded in the collection of poems, +Coming Out Fighting+, and that of Glasgow in +Women and Animals+.  One chapter of his major critical work, +A Theory of Communication+, is a revealing transcript of a session of the London Group in the sixties.

While his major impact was as a mentor of poets -- perhaps one of the finest of our time -- his own work shouldn't be forgotten.

Robin Hamilton

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/42393.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/01/db0102.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/07/01/ixportal.html

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/42236.html
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Jul  5 18:47:29 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:47:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Li Po
Message-ID: <731bb17a050705154751a7ea25@mail.gmail.com>

Can anyone provide some good web resources on the poet Li Po?
 I'm looking mainly for criticism--the primary works I have access to.
 Thanks in advance.
  Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jul  5 19:23:11 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:23:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shooting The Nightingales
Message-ID: <99.61c84b28.2ffc705f@aol.com>

Shooting The Nightingales

Our hunting party always went out just before dawn
or as dusk descended along that scrim
of scrub oak along the river. Some carried
over & unders while other loaded their automatics.

We would engage them in their blowsy bowers,
singing their faint hearts out, and we blasted 
them all to hell with a fury generally reserved 
for a pack of rabid dogs that had set upon an infant. 

How dare they, these feathery little songsters, 
with their playful plaints,. their pitiful prayers forbidding 
morrow, their felicities of melancholia or feigning 
to fly away only to alight and sing again on a nearby branch

To tell the truth the trigger was like a bone stuck
in my throat.  I couldn't wait to dislodge it with 
a firm squeeze.  Sometimes one would fall half-dead 
to earth, then stir the dust with one broken wing 

until it expired, scrawling some illegible script.
The markings there in dirt one might call lovely 
if it didn't make you want to gag 
as though forced to give a blow job to a shotgun.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Jul  5 19:38:35 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:38:35 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shooting The Nightingales
Message-ID: <1c7.2bd10703.2ffc73fb@cs.com>

Ted Hughes, whatta guy.
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Jul  6 08:51:30 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:51:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ted Kooser on NPR
Message-ID: <731bb17a05070605517882f6af@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4728857
 Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From gdelisle at gmail.com  Wed Jul  6 09:13:46 2005
From: gdelisle at gmail.com (Greg Delisle)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:13:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shooting The Nightingales
In-Reply-To: <99.61c84b28.2ffc705f@aol.com>
References: <99.61c84b28.2ffc705f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ff60a5980507060613484e461@mail.gmail.com>

This is the most revolting poem I've read in many years. Thanks!

On 7/5/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> Shooting The Nightingales
>  
>  Our hunting party always went out just before dawn
>  or as dusk descended along that scrim
>  of scrub oak along the river. Some carried
>  over & unders while other loaded their automatics.
>  
>  We would engage them in their blowsy bowers,
>  singing their faint hearts out, and we blasted 
>  them all to hell with a fury generally reserved 
>  for a pack of rabid dogs that had set upon an infant. 
>  
>  How dare they, these feathery little songsters, 
>  with their playful plaints,. their pitiful prayers forbidding 
>  morrow, their felicities of melancholia or feigning 
>  to fly away only to alight and sing again on a nearby branch
>  
>  To tell the truth the trigger was like a bone stuck
>  in my throat.  I couldn't wait to dislodge it with 
>  a firm squeeze.  Sometimes one would fall half-dead 
>  to earth, then stir the dust with one broken wing 
>  
>  until it expired, scrawling some illegible script.
>  The markings there in dirt one might call lovely 
>  if it didn't make you want to gag 
>  as though forced to give a blow job to a shotgun.
>  
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-- Greg Delisle
http://www.poetryspace.org



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul  6 09:34:40 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:34:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] OBIT: Lorenzo Thomas, professor and poet 
Message-ID: <1d5.3f6d5805.2ffd37f0@aol.com>

 
July 4, 2005, 11:07PM 
OBITUARY 
Lorenzo Thomas, professor and  poet 
He was longtime Houston literary icon, social  critic 
By FRITZ LANHAM 
Copyright 2005 Houston  Chronicle 
Lorenzo Thomas, a much-respected fixture on Houston's  literary scene and a 
poet who married bluesy lyricism with a social conscience,  died Monday. He was 
60. 
Thomas died at the Texas Medical Center Hospice. Cause of  death was 
emphysema, according to his companion, Karen  Luik. 
Thomas' poetry collections included Chances Are Few  (1979, expanded second 
edition in 2003), The Bathers (1981) and most recently  Dancing on Main Street 
(2004). About the last, the Chronicle wrote: "Taken  together, the poems in 
this collection exhibit that equipoise that comes with  age and experience. 
Sorrow and joy find their balance." Poetry, Thomas once  wrote, "attempts to knock 
the mind out of the rut of commonplace  thinking." 
For more than two decades a professor of English at the  University of 
Houston-Downtown, Thomas also made important contributions to the  study of 
African-American literature. In 2000, the University of Alabama Press  published 
Extraordinary Measures: Afrocentric Modernism and 20th-Century  American Poetry, 
his overview of the work of James Fenton, Amiri Baraka and  other important 
black writers. It was named a Choice Outstanding Academic Book  for the year. 
A longtime contributor to the Chronicle's book review  pages, he was a 
generous and thoughtful critic. 
He became 'extrafluent' 
Thomas was born in Panama in 1944. Four years later the  family immigrated to 
New York City, where Thomas grew up. Spanish was his first  language, and he 
strove to master English to escape getting beaten up by other  kids for 
"talking funny."  
"Never forgot it," he once said. "Went way, way, way away  out of my way to 
become extra fluent in English." 
His study of English fed an early interest in creative  writing. Further 
nurturing his literary ambitions was "the whole business of  being black and from 
a home full of race-conscious people and the idea that if  you are black you 
had to be more qualified than necessary," he  said. 
During his years at Queens College, Thomas joined the  Umbra Workshop, a 
collective that met on the Lower East Side and served as a  crucible for emerging 
black poets, among them Ishmael Reed, David Henderson and  Calvin Hernton. The 
workshop was one of the currents that fed the Black Arts  Movement of the 
'60s and '70s, the first major African-American artistic  movement after the 
Harlem Renaissance. 
Predictably, the civil rights struggle and the rise of  cultural black 
nationalism had a big influence on Thomas and many of his  generation. 
"He is not, however, a racial protest poet but a critic  of the Western world 
writing from the perspective of Afro-America, with  inherited and acquired 
attitudes of an Afro-Caribbean," poet and playwright, Tom  Dent wrote of Thomas. 
"His sympathies are with 'the people,' the folk, the  poor, the dispossessed, 
of which people of African descent happen to be  card-carrying members in the 
Western world." 
Served in Vietnam 
After graduating from college Thomas joined the Navy,  serving as a military 
adviser in Vietnam in 1971. In 1973 he moved to Houston as  writer-in- 
residence at Texas Southern University. At TSU he helped edit the  journal Roots. 
Later he conducted writing workshops at the newly formed Black  Arts Center. He 
joined UH-Downtown in 1984.  
References to American popular culture ? music especially  ? abound in 
Thomas' work. He cited as influences such blues legends as Robert  Johnson, Houston 
native Lightnin' Hopkins and the Houston poet-singer Juke Boy  Bonner, whom 
Thomas eulogized in the journal Callaloo. Thomas helped organize  Juneteenth 
Blues Festivals in Houston and other Texas  cities. 
"I write poems because I can't sing," he once  said. 
Charles Rowell, professor of English at Texas A&M  University and editor of 
Callaloo, cited Thomas' role as a cultural critic as  his most important 
achievement, in particular the essays on writers and  musicians. Through writing 
workshops Thomas influenced young black writers not  only in Houston but 
elsewhere. "His passing will be a major loss to  African-American letters and to 
writing in Texas, period," Rowell  said. 
How to be a Texas poet 
Harryette Mullen, a poet who got to know Thomas in the  late 1970s when both 
worked in the Writers in the Schools program in Houston,  said he showed her 
how to be a Texas poet without being parochial.   
"It is poetry that is humorous but that makes serious  points about our 
culture," she said of his work. 
"There's a critical aspect to it. It's not just  entertaining but it also can 
be entertaining." 
The poet Anne Waldman, who published one of Thomas' early  chapbooks in 1972, 
said his poetry "could be quiet, fierce, public, scholarly,  sometimes within 
one poem." 
He was also "one of the most well-read people I know in  poetry," Waldman 
said. "He had a real grasp of the English literary tradition as  well as the 
African-American tradition, the African court tradition, what is so  exciting here 
in the last century." 
Thomas contributed his time to cultural organizations in  Houston. He served 
on the boards of Cultural Arts Council of Houston and the  literary journal 
Gulf Coast, and on the advisory board of Inprint  Inc. 
He was a member of Texas Institute of Letters. Affable,  even self-effacing, 
he nonetheless was the type of man who commanded attention  when he spoke in 
public forums. 
Funeral  arrangements are pending.
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Wed Jul  6 10:09:34 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:09:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shooting The Nightingales
In-Reply-To: <99.61c84b28.2ffc705f@aol.com>
References: <99.61c84b28.2ffc705f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0507061008180.13020@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

As artless a piece of lurching around as I've seen in a while.

And I am ALL for the shadow.




On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Shooting The Nightingales
>
> Our hunting party always went out just before dawn
> or as dusk descended along that scrim
> of scrub oak along the river. Some carried
> over & unders while other loaded their automatics.
>
> We would engage them in their blowsy bowers,
> singing their faint hearts out, and we blasted
> them all to hell with a fury generally reserved
> for a pack of rabid dogs that had set upon an infant.
>
> How dare they, these feathery little songsters,
> with their playful plaints,. their pitiful prayers forbidding
> morrow, their felicities of melancholia or feigning
> to fly away only to alight and sing again on a nearby branch
>
> To tell the truth the trigger was like a bone stuck
> in my throat.  I couldn't wait to dislodge it with
> a firm squeeze.  Sometimes one would fall half-dead
> to earth, then stir the dust with one broken wing
>
> until it expired, scrawling some illegible script.
> The markings there in dirt one might call lovely
> if it didn't make you want to gag
> as though forced to give a blow job to a shotgun.
>

-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From tad at opus40.org  Wed Jul  6 12:16:05 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:16:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shooting The Nightingales
References: <99.61c84b28.2ffc705f@aol.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0507061008180.13020@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <001201c58246$05954f40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

The blowjob to a shotgun image is also used in Russ Meyer's "Beyond the 
Valley of the Dolls."


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Shooting The Nightingales


> As artless a piece of lurching around as I've seen in a while.
>
> And I am ALL for the shadow.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Shooting The Nightingales
>>
>> Our hunting party always went out just before dawn
>> or as dusk descended along that scrim
>> of scrub oak along the river. Some carried
>> over & unders while other loaded their automatics.
>>
>> We would engage them in their blowsy bowers,
>> singing their faint hearts out, and we blasted
>> them all to hell with a fury generally reserved
>> for a pack of rabid dogs that had set upon an infant.
>>
>> How dare they, these feathery little songsters,
>> with their playful plaints,. their pitiful prayers forbidding
>> morrow, their felicities of melancholia or feigning
>> to fly away only to alight and sing again on a nearby branch
>>
>> To tell the truth the trigger was like a bone stuck
>> in my throat.  I couldn't wait to dislodge it with
>> a firm squeeze.  Sometimes one would fall half-dead
>> to earth, then stir the dust with one broken wing
>>
>> until it expired, scrawling some illegible script.
>> The markings there in dirt one might call lovely
>> if it didn't make you want to gag
>> as though forced to give a blow job to a shotgun.
>>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul  6 12:58:31 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:58:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet,
	Without a Face"
Message-ID: <1e9.3f6c6701.2ffd67b7@aol.com>

 
New translations do justice to a poet 'of the human universe' 
"Without an Alphabet, Without a Face" samples from 42 years of Youssef's  
composition 
By Sholeh Wolpe  
Special to The Daily Star 
Wednesday, July 06, 2005 
BOOK REVIEW 
LOS ANGELES: A bad translation can kill even the best of poems. A  brilliant 
melodic poem rendered into another language could become a bad poem  with 
interesting philosophy or insights. 
Fortunately, Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet, Without a Face"  
meets no such fate. Published by Graywolf Press and selected and translated by  K
haled Mattawa, it is the work of a master Iraqi poet translated by a master  
translator. When recited out loud, the true test of a good translation, the  
poems sound softly from one's throat, smooth as warm milk and honey. They are  
melodic and not forced. In reading these poems one forgets they are 
translations  and not the poems in their original language. 
Youssef was born in Basra, Iraq, in 1934. After receiving a degree in  Arabic 
from the Teachers' College at Baghdad University in 1954, his socialist  
sympathies took him on an unauthorized trip to a youth conference in Moscow in  
1957, after which he was forced to settle in Kuwait until the 1958 revolution in 
 Iraq. Since then, the winds of politics have blown him from country to 
country,  imposing, in his own words: "a life of forced departures."  
He has lived in Syria, Lebanon, Tunisia, Yemen, Cyprus, Yugoslavia,  France, 
Jordan and England. 
The poet Marilyn Hacker calls Saadi Youssef a poet not only of the Arab  
world but "of the human universe." 
"Without An Alphabet, Without a Face" is a beautiful collection of poems  
selected by Mattawa from over 30 volumes of poetry, spanning 42 years of  
Youssef's composition. In these poems, Youssef does indeed speak to and from the  
human universe. Youssef guides his readers through senses and imagined  
possibilities, leaving behind expectations and preconceived notions.  
"The senses are the aim of poetry's wave," he says. "They are the aim  
because they are its receivers. And the idea is that the person's relation to  the 
universe is returned to its earliest stages, to its spontaneity."  
It is thus that we enter and leave (or sometimes never leave) Youssef's  
poems. Consider "Sparrows," written in Yemen in 1981: 
"This morning I saw a sparrow / on a thin stalk of yellow corn, / the  only 
plant adorning / the seaside hotel. / The sparrow cleaned itself; / the  stalk 
shook. / Another sparrow came; / the stalk bent. / A third sparrow; / the  
stalk bowed quickly. / Then suddenly, / and in unison, / the three sparrows took  
off, / leaving the hotel. /And under my shirt / a thousand sparrows /  
shivered." 
According to Youssef: "It is important that the poet  develop a strong bond 
with life, to be able to observe and able to choose his  subject 
matter...Afterwards, he can abstract things by abstracting coincidences,  and symbolize 
them."   
As Mattawa notes, this can lead to a process of surprise and discovery,  as 
in one of his longer, best and perhaps most well known poems, "America,  
America": 
"I too love jeans and jazz and Treasure Island / and John Silver's parrot  
and the balconies of New Orleans. / I love Mark Twain and the Mississippi  
steamboats and Abraham Lincoln's dogs. / I love the fields of wheat and corn and  
the smell of Virginia tobacco. / But I am not American. / Is that enough for 
the  Phantom pilot to turn me back to the Stone Age? / I need neither oil nor 
America  herself, neither the elephant nor the donkey. / Leave me, pilot, leave 
my house  roofed with palm fronds and this wooden bridge. / I need neither 
your Golden  Gate nor your skyscrapers. / I need the village, not New York." 
Youssef's attention to details while maintaining this process of surprise  
and discovery is what gives the poems fluidity and a sense of urgency, making it 
 hard to leave them behind. They stay with you and bid you to return to the  
spaces they occupy again and again. In "The Ends of the African North" (from  
which the title of the book is extracted from) he writes:  
"In the neighborhoods of Tunis and their winter caf?s / at the gates of  
Africa's spread thighs / I saw a girl weep / without an alphabet, without a  face. 
/ Snow was falling and a girl wept under it." 
Eleven years later, he alludes to the same subject in "The Spring." Here,  he 
speaks of holding Aden, a city in Yemen, in his summer shirt pocket, like a  
magician's rose. 
"Once, / as we sat among fishermen in Beirut, a Palestinian girl told me:  / 
"From here come the enemies' planes." Her index finger / pointed to the whole  
world. / Amman in San'a, or Ajman in Beirut, / or Baghdad a ringed orchard, / 
 names of cities emptied and their impressions entangled. / Their alphabets 
have  forgotten their shapes and their shapers. / They will make us forget 
those lands  and their weeds / and God and the earths and our births. / They will 
make us  forget veins that tied rib to rib / and the Arab in the hidden star / 
and the  boy playing with toys made of his offspring. / But I hide for the 
young girl  another rose. / ... / I count a petal for 'Ayne, / a petal for D?l, 
/ a petal  for N?n." 
Youssef's poems contain no bitterness, no anger. His poems are whispers,  
intimate and urgent. Sometimes whispers are more effective than shouts. In his  
poem "A Friendship" he writes: 
"What we share is not trust. / We share the throat of the bleeding  flower. / 
Between us the storm emerges / from its elements.... / I say: "Let's  shake 
hands."" 
In the end, like many Arabs dispersed in the world, Youssef's poems  reflect 
the life of a traveler and exile - and leave one aching for  more. 
"Land where I no longer live, / distant land / where the sky weeps, /  where 
the women weep, / where people only read the newspaper. / ... / Country  where 
I no longer live, / my outcast country, / from you I only gained a  
traveler's sails, / a banner ripped by daggers / and fugitive stars." 
"Without An Alphabet, Without A Face: Selected Poems of Saadi Youssef"  
Translated from the Arabic by Khaled Mattawa is available at all good bookstores  
in the region, and is published by Graywolf Press. 

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul  6 14:35:22 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:35:22 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet,
	Without a Face"
References: <1e9.3f6c6701.2ffd67b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007301c58259$77fd33f0$ef8e3052@ANNY>

I do not like this poetry, even if it is well translated.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 6:58 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet,Without a Face"


  New translations do justice to a poet 'of the human universe'

  "Without an Alphabet, Without a Face" samples from 42 years of Youssef's composition

   

  By Sholeh Wolpe 

  Special to The Daily Star

  Wednesday, July 06, 2005

   

  BOOK REVIEW

   

  LOS ANGELES: A bad translation can kill even the best of poems. A brilliant melodic poem rendered into another language could become a bad poem with interesting philosophy or insights.

   

  Fortunately, Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet, Without a Face" meets no such fate. Published by Graywolf Press and selected and translated by Khaled Mattawa, it is the work of a master Iraqi poet translated by a master translator. When recited out loud, the true test of a good translation, the poems sound softly from one's throat, smooth as warm milk and honey. They are melodic and not forced. In reading these poems one forgets they are translations and not the poems in their original language.

   

  Youssef was born in Basra, Iraq, in 1934. After receiving a degree in Arabic from the Teachers' College at Baghdad University in 1954, his socialist sympathies took him on an unauthorized trip to a youth conference in Moscow in 1957, after which he was forced to settle in Kuwait until the 1958 revolution in Iraq. Since then, the winds of politics have blown him from country to country, imposing, in his own words: "a life of forced departures." 

   

  He has lived in Syria, Lebanon, Tunisia, Yemen, Cyprus, Yugoslavia, France, Jordan and England.

   

  The poet Marilyn Hacker calls Saadi Youssef a poet not only of the Arab world but "of the human universe."

   

  "Without An Alphabet, Without a Face" is a beautiful collection of poems selected by Mattawa from over 30 volumes of poetry, spanning 42 years of Youssef's composition. In these poems, Youssef does indeed speak to and from the human universe. Youssef guides his readers through senses and imagined possibilities, leaving behind expectations and preconceived notions. 

   

  "The senses are the aim of poetry's wave," he says. "They are the aim because they are its receivers. And the idea is that the person's relation to the universe is returned to its earliest stages, to its spontaneity." 

   

  It is thus that we enter and leave (or sometimes never leave) Youssef's poems. Consider "Sparrows," written in Yemen in 1981:

   

  "This morning I saw a sparrow / on a thin stalk of yellow corn, / the only plant adorning / the seaside hotel. / The sparrow cleaned itself; / the stalk shook. / Another sparrow came; / the stalk bent. / A third sparrow; / the stalk bowed quickly. / Then suddenly, / and in unison, / the three sparrows took off, / leaving the hotel. /And under my shirt / a thousand sparrows / shivered."

   

  According to Youssef: "It is important that the poet develop a strong bond with life, to be able to observe and able to choose his subject matter...Afterwards, he can abstract things by abstracting coincidences, and symbolize them."  

   

  As Mattawa notes, this can lead to a process of surprise and discovery, as in one of his longer, best and perhaps most well known poems, "America, America":

   

  "I too love jeans and jazz and Treasure Island / and John Silver's parrot and the balconies of New Orleans. / I love Mark Twain and the Mississippi steamboats and Abraham Lincoln's dogs. / I love the fields of wheat and corn and the smell of Virginia tobacco. / But I am not American. / Is that enough for the Phantom pilot to turn me back to the Stone Age? / I need neither oil nor America herself, neither the elephant nor the donkey. / Leave me, pilot, leave my house roofed with palm fronds and this wooden bridge. / I need neither your Golden Gate nor your skyscrapers. / I need the village, not New York."

   



  Youssef's attention to details while maintaining this process of surprise and discovery is what gives the poems fluidity and a sense of urgency, making it hard to leave them behind. They stay with you and bid you to return to the spaces they occupy again and again. In "The Ends of the African North" (from which the title of the book is extracted from) he writes: 

   

  "In the neighborhoods of Tunis and their winter caf?s / at the gates of Africa's spread thighs / I saw a girl weep / without an alphabet, without a face. / Snow was falling and a girl wept under it."

   

  Eleven years later, he alludes to the same subject in "The Spring." Here, he speaks of holding Aden, a city in Yemen, in his summer shirt pocket, like a magician's rose.

   

  "Once, / as we sat among fishermen in Beirut, a Palestinian girl told me: / "From here come the enemies' planes." Her index finger / pointed to the whole world. / Amman in San'a, or Ajman in Beirut, / or Baghdad a ringed orchard, / names of cities emptied and their impressions entangled. / Their alphabets have forgotten their shapes and their shapers. / They will make us forget those lands and their weeds / and God and the earths and our births. / They will make us forget veins that tied rib to rib / and the Arab in the hidden star / and the boy playing with toys made of his offspring. / But I hide for the young girl another rose. / ... / I count a petal for 'Ayne, / a petal for D?l, / a petal for N?n."

   

  Youssef's poems contain no bitterness, no anger. His poems are whispers, intimate and urgent. Sometimes whispers are more effective than shouts. In his poem "A Friendship" he writes:

   

  "What we share is not trust. / We share the throat of the bleeding flower. / Between us the storm emerges / from its elements.... / I say: "Let's shake hands.""

   

  In the end, like many Arabs dispersed in the world, Youssef's poems reflect the life of a traveler and exile - and leave one aching for more.

   

  "Land where I no longer live, / distant land / where the sky weeps, / where the women weep, / where people only read the newspaper. / ... / Country where I no longer live, / my outcast country, / from you I only gained a traveler's sails, / a banner ripped by daggers / and fugitive stars."

   

   

  "Without An Alphabet, Without A Face: Selected Poems of Saadi Youssef" Translated from the Arabic by Khaled Mattawa is available at all good bookstores in the region, and is published by Graywolf Press.

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul  6 15:05:01 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:05:01 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet,
	Without a Face"
References: <1e9.3f6c6701.2ffd67b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009001c5825d$9c58c580$ef8e3052@ANNY>

Mine is on the right, thank you for reading me, Anny Ballardini


      "I too love jeans and jazz and Treasure Island  and John Silver's parrot and the balconies of New Orleans. 

      I love Mark Twain and the Mississippi steamboats and Abraham Lincoln's dogs. 

      I love the fields of wheat and corn and the smell of Virginia tobacco. 

      But I am not American. 

      Is that enough for the Phantom pilot to turn me back to the Stone Age? 

      I need neither oil nor America herself, neither the elephant nor the donkey. 

      Leave me, pilot, leave my house roofed with palm fronds and this wooden bridge. 

      I need neither your Golden Gate nor your skyscrapers. 

      I need the village, not New York."

       
     Adoring jazz low profound blues, the arabesque balconies giving on Jackson Square, the stench of boiled fish thick with the sweetness of magnolias the sticky air before the storm

       

      The Mississippi not its fake steamboats, Abraham Lincoln, not his dogs.

      I live of wheat, chain smoke from dawn to night

       

      And I am American

      without rhetoric questions

       

      I am sitting among lettuce sprouts in my living-room round red tomatoes climbing on the curtains, catching an alpine coco-nut from the ceiling before it crashes my pc all well set among the bananas the tree growing from the parquet under the oak table

       

      I need the Village in New York

       

       

       
     




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 6:58 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet,Without a Face"


  New translations do justice to a poet 'of the human universe'

  "Without an Alphabet, Without a Face" samples from 42 years of Youssef's composition

   

  By Sholeh Wolpe 

  Special to The Daily Star

  Wednesday, July 06, 2005

   

  BOOK REVIEW

   

  LOS ANGELES: A bad translation can kill even the best of poems. A brilliant melodic poem rendered into another language could become a bad poem with interesting philosophy or insights.

   

  Fortunately, Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet, Without a Face" meets no such fate. Published by Graywolf Press and selected and translated by Khaled Mattawa, it is the work of a master Iraqi poet translated by a master translator. When recited out loud, the true test of a good translation, the poems sound softly from one's throat, smooth as warm milk and honey. They are melodic and not forced. In reading these poems one forgets they are translations and not the poems in their original language.

   

  Youssef was born in Basra, Iraq, in 1934. After receiving a degree in Arabic from the Teachers' College at Baghdad University in 1954, his socialist sympathies took him on an unauthorized trip to a youth conference in Moscow in 1957, after which he was forced to settle in Kuwait until the 1958 revolution in Iraq. Since then, the winds of politics have blown him from country to country, imposing, in his own words: "a life of forced departures." 

   

  He has lived in Syria, Lebanon, Tunisia, Yemen, Cyprus, Yugoslavia, France, Jordan and England.

   

  The poet Marilyn Hacker calls Saadi Youssef a poet not only of the Arab world but "of the human universe."

   

  "Without An Alphabet, Without a Face" is a beautiful collection of poems selected by Mattawa from over 30 volumes of poetry, spanning 42 years of Youssef's composition. In these poems, Youssef does indeed speak to and from the human universe. Youssef guides his readers through senses and imagined possibilities, leaving behind expectations and preconceived notions. 

   

  "The senses are the aim of poetry's wave," he says. "They are the aim because they are its receivers. And the idea is that the person's relation to the universe is returned to its earliest stages, to its spontaneity." 

   

  It is thus that we enter and leave (or sometimes never leave) Youssef's poems. Consider "Sparrows," written in Yemen in 1981:

   

  "This morning I saw a sparrow / on a thin stalk of yellow corn, / the only plant adorning / the seaside hotel. / The sparrow cleaned itself; / the stalk shook. / Another sparrow came; / the stalk bent. / A third sparrow; / the stalk bowed quickly. / Then suddenly, / and in unison, / the three sparrows took off, / leaving the hotel. /And under my shirt / a thousand sparrows / shivered."

   

  According to Youssef: "It is important that the poet develop a strong bond with life, to be able to observe and able to choose his subject matter...Afterwards, he can abstract things by abstracting coincidences, and symbolize them."  

   

  As Mattawa notes, this can lead to a process of surprise and discovery, as in one of his longer, best and perhaps most well known poems, "America, America":

   

  "I too love jeans and jazz and Treasure Island / and John Silver's parrot and the balconies of New Orleans. / I love Mark Twain and the Mississippi steamboats and Abraham Lincoln's dogs. / I love the fields of wheat and corn and the smell of Virginia tobacco. / But I am not American. / Is that enough for the Phantom pilot to turn me back to the Stone Age? / I need neither oil nor America herself, neither the elephant nor the donkey. / Leave me, pilot, leave my house roofed with palm fronds and this wooden bridge. / I need neither your Golden Gate nor your skyscrapers. / I need the village, not New York."

   



  Youssef's attention to details while maintaining this process of surprise and discovery is what gives the poems fluidity and a sense of urgency, making it hard to leave them behind. They stay with you and bid you to return to the spaces they occupy again and again. In "The Ends of the African North" (from which the title of the book is extracted from) he writes: 

   

  "In the neighborhoods of Tunis and their winter caf?s / at the gates of Africa's spread thighs / I saw a girl weep / without an alphabet, without a face. / Snow was falling and a girl wept under it."

   

  Eleven years later, he alludes to the same subject in "The Spring." Here, he speaks of holding Aden, a city in Yemen, in his summer shirt pocket, like a magician's rose.

   

  "Once, / as we sat among fishermen in Beirut, a Palestinian girl told me: / "From here come the enemies' planes." Her index finger / pointed to the whole world. / Amman in San'a, or Ajman in Beirut, / or Baghdad a ringed orchard, / names of cities emptied and their impressions entangled. / Their alphabets have forgotten their shapes and their shapers. / They will make us forget those lands and their weeds / and God and the earths and our births. / They will make us forget veins that tied rib to rib / and the Arab in the hidden star / and the boy playing with toys made of his offspring. / But I hide for the young girl another rose. / ... / I count a petal for 'Ayne, / a petal for D?l, / a petal for N?n."

   

  Youssef's poems contain no bitterness, no anger. His poems are whispers, intimate and urgent. Sometimes whispers are more effective than shouts. In his poem "A Friendship" he writes:

   

  "What we share is not trust. / We share the throat of the bleeding flower. / Between us the storm emerges / from its elements.... / I say: "Let's shake hands.""

   

  In the end, like many Arabs dispersed in the world, Youssef's poems reflect the life of a traveler and exile - and leave one aching for more.

   

  "Land where I no longer live, / distant land / where the sky weeps, / where the women weep, / where people only read the newspaper. / ... / Country where I no longer live, / my outcast country, / from you I only gained a traveler's sails, / a banner ripped by daggers / and fugitive stars."

   

   

  "Without An Alphabet, Without A Face: Selected Poems of Saadi Youssef" Translated from the Arabic by Khaled Mattawa is available at all good bookstores in the region, and is published by Graywolf Press.

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Wed Jul  6 15:38:30 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Wed,  6 Jul 2005 15:38:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shooting The Nightingales
In-Reply-To: <001201c58246$05954f40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <99.61c84b28.2ffc705f@aol.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0507061008180.13020@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<001201c58246$05954f40$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1120678710.42cc333683081@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

don't even get me started...

Quoting The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org>:

> The blowjob to a shotgun image is also used in Russ Meyer's "Beyond the 
> Valley of the Dolls."
> 
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 10:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Shooting The Nightingales
> 
> 
> > As artless a piece of lurching around as I've seen in a while.
> >
> > And I am ALL for the shadow.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> Shooting The Nightingales
> >>
> >> Our hunting party always went out just before dawn
> >> or as dusk descended along that scrim
> >> of scrub oak along the river. Some carried
> >> over & unders while other loaded their automatics.
> >>
> >> We would engage them in their blowsy bowers,
> >> singing their faint hearts out, and we blasted
> >> them all to hell with a fury generally reserved
> >> for a pack of rabid dogs that had set upon an infant.
> >>
> >> How dare they, these feathery little songsters,
> >> with their playful plaints,. their pitiful prayers forbidding
> >> morrow, their felicities of melancholia or feigning
> >> to fly away only to alight and sing again on a nearby branch
> >>
> >> To tell the truth the trigger was like a bone stuck
> >> in my throat.  I couldn't wait to dislodge it with
> >> a firm squeeze.  Sometimes one would fall half-dead
> >> to earth, then stir the dust with one broken wing
> >>
> >> until it expired, scrawling some illegible script.
> >> The markings there in dirt one might call lovely
> >> if it didn't make you want to gag
> >> as though forced to give a blow job to a shotgun.
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> 
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> 
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul  6 19:16:26 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:16:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet,
	Without a Face"
Message-ID: <6a.58ca9d77.2ffdc04a@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/6/2005 2:36:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
I do not like this poetry, even if it is well translated.
Anny,
I tend to agree with you...this (below) was best of the quoted
passages I thought.
Finnegan


Eleven years later, he alludes to the same subject in "The Spring." Here, he 
speaks of holding Aden, a city in Yemen, in his summer shirt pocket, like a 
magician's rose.
 
"Once, / as we sat among fishermen in Beirut, a Palestinian girl told me: / 
"From here come the enemies' planes." Her index finger / pointed to the whole 
world. / Amman in San'a, or Ajman in Beirut, / or Baghdad a ringed orchard, / 
names of cities emptied and their impressions entangled. / Their alphabets have 
forgotten their shapes and their shapers. / They will make us forget those 
lands and their weeds / and God and the earths and our births. / They will make 
us forget veins that tied rib to rib / and the Arab in the hidden star / and 
the boy playing with toys made of his offspring. / But I hide for the young 
girl another rose. / ... / I count a petal for 'Ayne, / a petal for D?l, / a 
petal for N?n."
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Jul  6 22:18:18 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 22:18:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] OBIT: Lorenzo Thomas, professor and poet 
Message-ID: <1de.3ef6ede3.2ffdeaea@cs.com>

This is sad.  We never met, despite being only 75 miles apart, but he was a 
considerable presence in Houston for a long time.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul  7 03:04:16 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:04:16 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] new visions
Message-ID: <003901c582c2$16f92460$74a83252@ANNY>


I found this mail sent by Alan Sondheim in my box this morning. Usually similar experiments promise more than what they actually bear but the idea _nothing new for poets_ translated into a tangible vision is maybe worth some time:


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:48:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gerald Jones <geraldfilm at yahoo.com>
To: Projectory <projectory at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: fast forward from 1720 to the KRONOS PROJECTOR 2005

   *****  now Fast Forward -- from 1720
              to The Khronos Projector 2005


The following website offers demos of a new technology
to be shown at the upcoming SIGGRAPH in LA at the
beginning of Aug. The Khronos Projector, being
developed in Japan, by Alvaro Cassinelli & Masatoshi
Ishikawa is an interactive display technology where
the audience, by touching the projection screen, can
send parts of the image forward or backwards in time.
They also have video clips posted showing it in
action.


http://www.k2.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/members/alvaro/Khronos/Khronos_Projector.htm

as ever,

Gerald


______________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul  7 03:17:02 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:17:02 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet,
	Without a Face"
References: <6a.58ca9d77.2ffdc04a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009001c582c3$dfb8c8f0$74a83252@ANNY>

Hi James, sorry,

I just underlined the main attitude. This is quite a moving poem, I also noticed it before.

Thank you, Anny
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 1:16 AM


  In a message dated 7/6/2005 2:36:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
    I do not like this poetry, even if it is well translated.
  Anny,
  I tend to agree with you...this (below) was best of the quoted
  passages I thought.
  Finnegan



      Eleven years later, he alludes to the same subject in "The Spring." Here, he speaks of holding Aden, a city in Yemen, in his summer shirt pocket, like a magician's rose.
       

      "Once, / as we sat among fishermen in Beirut, a Palestinian girl told me: / "From here come the enemies' planes." Her index finger / pointed to the whole world. / Amman in San'a, or Ajman in Beirut, / or Baghdad a ringed orchard, / names of cities emptied and their impressions entangled. / Their alphabets have forgotten their shapes and their shapers. / They will make us forget those lands and their weeds / and God and the earths and our births. / They will make us forget veins that tied rib to rib / and the Arab in the hidden star / and the boy playing with toys made of his offspring. / But I hide for the young girl another rose. / ... / I count a petal for 'Ayne, / a petal for D?l, / a petal for N?n."





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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Jul  7 10:54:48 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:54:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure
Message-ID: <000d01c58303$d537ed80$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

A sign of the times that two of our recent Laureates are known professionally by boyhood nicknames? Can we imagine the same honors being given to Possum Eliot, Cal Lowell or Red Warren?

Well, I guess that means there's hope for me...



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Thu Jul  7 15:09:07 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 03:09:07 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet,
	Without a  Face"
Message-ID: <a05100302bef32a2c23d6@[204.215.201.133]>

Soporific, propagandistical nonsense:

>"I too love jeans and jazz and Treasure Island / and John Silver's parrot
>and the balconies of New Orleans. / I love Mark Twain and the Mississippi
>steamboats and Abraham Lincoln's dogs. / I love the fields of wheat 
>and corn and
>the smell of Virginia tobacco. / But I am not American. /


There are Iraqis who have become loyal Americans, riding with the 
Lone Star Rangers.  But, this dope went to Moscow and lives in a fog. 
His "America" is culled from French tourist guides.

We liberated his kind from his own homegrown bloody tyrant.  But, I 
am certain Senator Durbin can quote him in his next 
misrepresentations and whinings.

The careful reader will note that there will be NO condemnations from 
this fellow or any with whom he marches of today's London's 
IslamoFascist military terrorist attack.  Because he hasn't the 
conscience or guts to stand up to them.  He'd rather get a RadLib 
welfare check from George Soros.

>  Is that enough for
>the  Phantom pilot to turn me back to the Stone Age?

Hey, Baby, you were in the Stone Age long before Saddam/Arafat peeled 
off 20k for another Bomb Belt.

>  / I need neither oil nor
>America  herself, neither the elephant nor the donkey. / Leave me, 
>pilot, leave
>my house  roofed with palm fronds and this wooden bridge. / I need neither
>your Golden  Gate nor your skyscrapers. / I need the village, not New York."

Didn't he just say that he preferred the Stone Age?  What he really 
wants is a Neo STONED Age.

This STUFF sounds like Cafe Wha bongo drum beard spit.  Plays right 
into the RadLib/Dick Durbin/Boxer/Pelosi/Teddy K Quisling agenda.

>
>Youssef's attention to details while maintaining this process of surprise
>and discovery
>
>  is what gives the poems fluidity and a sense of urgency,

And impervious stupidity that hasn't the guts to stand up to the Zark.
>
>  making it
>  hard to leave them behind.

What a joke.


>  They stay with you and bid you to return to the
spaces they occupy again and again.


If you need a fix of crybaby cliched farrago.


======

R ------------------------------------------------------- D







-- 


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul  7 15:37:34 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:37:34 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmedina.net
Message-ID: <02cf01c5832b$53171060$74a83252@ANNY>

On blackmedina.net
http://www.blackmedina.net/poetry/burch/rose.htm


Auschwitz Rose 

There is a Rose at Auschwitz, in the briar,
a rose like Sharon's, lovely as her name.
The world forgot her,
and is not the same.
I love her and would not forget desire,
but keep her memory exalted flame
to justify the thistles and the nettles.
On Auschwitz now the reddening sunset settles;
they sleep alike--diminutive and tall,
the innocent, the "surgeons."
Sleeping, all.

Red oxides of her blood, bright crimson petals,
if accidents of coloration, gall
my heart no less.
Amid thick weeds and muck
there grows a rose no man shall ever pluck
till he beds there, and bids the world "Good Luck."

Michael R. Burch

OTHER WORK BY MICHAEL R. BURCH

SEE :: | :: IN MY HOUSE :: | :: WATER & GOLD :: | :: ALI'S SONG

About the Author: Michael R. Burch has been twice nominated for the Pushcart Prize, and his work has appeared or is forthcoming in over ninety literary journals in the USA, UK, Canada, Australia and India, including: The Chariton Review, Poetry Magazine, Verse, Poet Lore, Unlikely Stories, Light Quarterly, Writer's Digest - The Year's Best Writing (2003), The Best of the Eclectic Muse 1989-2003, The Lyric, Lonzie's Fried Chicken, Poetry SuperHighway, and ByLine.




__________________________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul  7 15:46:35 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:46:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet,
	Without a  Face"
In-Reply-To: <a05100302bef32a2c23d6@[204.215.201.133]>
References: <a05100302bef32a2c23d6@[204.215.201.133]>
Message-ID: <42CD869B.70203@ix.netcom.com>

Bill Frist Wins Josef Mengele Award For Second Year Running:
Dr. Frist Calls U.S. Torture Of Innocent Captives At Gitmo "Imaginative, 
Cutting Edge":
Durbin, Forgetting His Hannah Arendt, Absolves Low Level Prison Camp 
Personnel:
Frist To Star As Nazi Dentist In Remake Of Marathon Man

BYLE LARDNER
The Assassinated Press
6/19/05
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/

STRATEGIC HAMLET, Tenn.--- Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Cheney's 
biggest foghorn drowning out reports of torture at U.S. concentration 
camps, became the recipient of the prestigious Josef Mengele 'Angel of 
Death' Award for the second year in a row. The prize is awarded annually 
by the Americans of The Iron Cross centered in Steubenville, Ohio, a 
group made up of German and east European Nazis rescued by the OSS at 
the end of World War II and repatriated here in the U.S. Dr. Frist won 
the award for running flack for the Cheney administration on the torture 
and murder of innocent prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, at Abu Graib 
and elsewhere in Iraq as well as dozens of locations world wide, 
including Dick Cheney's bunker at the National Observatory and Bill 
Frist's 'secret room' at his Tennessee residence. Frist commented "I'm 
proud especially as a medical doctor to receive this award from such an 
esteemed group."

Rejecting Hannah Arendt's central thesis, Senate Majority Leader Bill 
Frist (R-Tenn.) threatened Sen. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) to apologize 
and withdraw his comments made on the Senate floor "or else." Durbin, 
who unlike Frist may have read Arendt's ideas on the "banality of evil" 
compared U.S. soldiers' handling of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, 
to the actions taken years ago by "Nazis and Soviets in their gulags."

"The fuckers who are desperate enough to join the military while the 
elites openly ridicule them by cutting their benies are certainly banal 
enough to make Hannah's cut," commented Prof. Dwight D. Isendhowitzers a 
psychologist whose firm CogNaivete Science studies video game brain 
washing for the Department of Defense at The Paul Linebarger Institute 
for the Criminally Perverse.

Frist commented, "Hannah who? I've never heard of the cunt."

In a statement yesterday from Nashville, Frist said, "In our ranks at 
Guantanamo are murderers . . . many dangerous murderers. They are 
guarding jail cells where they belong . . . and not on the battlefields 
in Iraq and Afghanistan . . . or on the streets of Nashville, Boston, 
Miami or New York slaughtering hundreds of innocent Iraqis or culpable 
Americans and making more bad press for Dick and Don."

"I'm extremely unhinged by Senator Durbin's comments comparing U.S. 
soldiers' handling of prisoners to the actions taken by Nazis and 
Soviets in their gulags. I don't know who this Hannah cunt is, but we 
should gas her. Not one prisoner has been murdered while in custody at 
Guantanamo that I will acknowledge."

On Friday, Durbin, under threat of death, retreated from comments he 
made on the Senate floor Tuesday but stopped short of an apology. "I 
have learned from my statement that historical parallels can be misused 
and misunderstood when the other side is led by an ignorant fop who 
happens to be a world class torturer himself," he said in a statement. 
"I sincerely regret if what I said caused anyone to misunderstand my 
true feelings: Our soldiers around the world, and their families at home 
deserve our right out a page from Nazi Germany and Hannah Arendt as well 
as Theodor Adorno have done an admiral job explaining the nature of such 
behavior. If fucks like Frist and many Americans want to blow off 
torture and murder like its not happening, well that's just America 
being America, a place of superior delusion without the spine to own up 
to their own actions another quality shared with the thousands of Nazis 
who lived out their lives in Ohio, New York and elsewhere thanks to the 
reverence our government had for their commitment to genocide ."

Frist insisted on an apology: "I warn Senator Durbin to withdraw his 
comments and provide an apology or I will reprise my role in Marathon 
Man and rip out his molars." And he warned other Democratic leaders 
should also seek an apology, adding, "Durbin's truthfulness does not 
begin to describe the heinous nature of our country . . . and the 
stupid, bigoted men and women taking lives every day to defend that 
brutal ignorance. I can't imagine what tribulation God is saving us and 
our blackened souls for."



<http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/index.html>



ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:

> Soporific, propagandistical nonsense:
>
>> "I too love jeans and jazz and Treasure Island / and John Silver's 
>> parrot
>> and the balconies of New Orleans. / I love Mark Twain and the 
>> Mississippi
>> steamboats and Abraham Lincoln's dogs. / I love the fields of wheat 
>> and corn and
>> the smell of Virginia tobacco. / But I am not American. /
>
>
>
> There are Iraqis who have become loyal Americans, riding with the Lone 
> Star Rangers.  But, this dope went to Moscow and lives in a fog. His 
> "America" is culled from French tourist guides.
>
> We liberated his kind from his own homegrown bloody tyrant.  But, I am 
> certain Senator Durbin can quote him in his next misrepresentations 
> and whinings.
>
> The careful reader will note that there will be NO condemnations from 
> this fellow or any with whom he marches of today's London's 
> IslamoFascist military terrorist attack.  Because he hasn't the 
> conscience or guts to stand up to them.  He'd rather get a RadLib 
> welfare check from George Soros.
>
>>  Is that enough for
>> the  Phantom pilot to turn me back to the Stone Age?
>
>
> Hey, Baby, you were in the Stone Age long before Saddam/Arafat peeled 
> off 20k for another Bomb Belt.
>
>>  / I need neither oil nor
>> America  herself, neither the elephant nor the donkey. / Leave me, 
>> pilot, leave
>> my house  roofed with palm fronds and this wooden bridge. / I need 
>> neither
>> your Golden  Gate nor your skyscrapers. / I need the village, not New 
>> York."
>
>
> Didn't he just say that he preferred the Stone Age?  What he really 
> wants is a Neo STONED Age.
>
> This STUFF sounds like Cafe Wha bongo drum beard spit.  Plays right 
> into the RadLib/Dick Durbin/Boxer/Pelosi/Teddy K Quisling agenda.
>
>>
>> Youssef's attention to details while maintaining this process of 
>> surprise
>> and discovery
>>
>>  is what gives the poems fluidity and a sense of urgency,
>
>
> And impervious stupidity that hasn't the guts to stand up to the Zark.
>
>>
>>  making it
>>  hard to leave them behind.
>
>
> What a joke.
>
>
>>  They stay with you and bid you to return to the
>
> spaces they occupy again and again.
>
>
> If you need a fix of crybaby cliched farrago.
>
>
> ======
>
> R ------------------------------------------------------- D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul  7 16:01:20 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:01:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Iraqi Saadi Youssef's "Without an Alphabet,
	Without a  Face"
In-Reply-To: <a05100302bef32a2c23d6@[204.215.201.133]>
References: <a05100302bef32a2c23d6@[204.215.201.133]>
Message-ID: <42CD8A10.2090007@ix.netcom.com>

"Beware Of 'Whitey'" Bearing Gifts And Fuck The Pop Music Simpletons:
Debt Cut Means Foreclosure for Poorest Nations; Re-Establishment of 
Colonialism, Slavery:
Deal Would Cancel $40 Billion in Loans In Return For Draconian 
Collateral Written Into IMF Agreements To Be Paid Upon Default; 
Privatization And Western Purchase Of De-Nationalized Mines, Utilities, 
Water Rights; No Unions & Low Wages; No Healthcare; No Education; Land 
Forfeiture; No Commies Or Socialists Need Get Elected Here; Foreign 
Goods Push Out Indigenous Ones; IMF Managed Food Programs & Destruction 
Of Indigenous Crops And Their Seeds, Replaced With Sterile Western Seed 
Requiring Hard Currency For Annual Purchase; Generic Drugs Produced By 
Africans To Fight Aids Outlawed So U.S. Drug Companies That Bill Gates 
Is Heavily Investigated In Make All The Money; Foreign Presence On 
National Bank And Currency Boards, Maintenance Of Cronyism With West, 
Structural Adjustment Loans, Foreign Military Presence, Consultant Fees 
To U.S. Cronies, Training Repressive Police Force And Army etc. etc. Ad 
Nauseam Until After A Few Years The Country And Its People Would Have 
Been Far Better Off If 'Whitey' Had Colonized Mars Or Been Taken Up In 
The Rapture Like He Fuckin' Promised Us He Would:
Western Contractors Lined Up To Steal New Round Of Loans:
Bono, Geldof: Wanton Debt Dupes Or Shilling For The IMF Thieves? 
Shouldn't They Stick To Writing And Producing Nursery Rhymes For Adults?
"Along With Iraq, This Is Tony Blair's Legacy. We Can Only Ask---Who 
Brought The Rope!!"

By PALL BULLSTAIN
Assassinated Press Staff Writer
Sunday, June 12, 2005
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/

London, Private Dining Room, Bank of the Exchequer---The world's 
wealthiest nations agreed yesterday to foreclose on more than $40 
billion in debts that some of the world's poorest nations owe to 
international lenders -- a move inspired by the belief that there is 
still wealth to be rung from these former colonies and sweeping up the 
current winnings will set the stage for further wealth reduction in 
these regions resealing the trap of hunger, disease and economic 
stagnation for generations to come.

Rational from the Cheney administration came in the form of a response 
from Under Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, Hymen Stooley: "The 
Rapture is upon us. If them ain't heathens in them affected countries, 
the fuckers will be taken up body and soul where, if my congregation is 
any to be judged by, they'll be lynched from the clouds in sight of the 
Almighty."

The deal, struck at a meeting in London of finance ministers from the 
Group of Eight major industrial nations with no input from the affected 
countries, is the most significant debt-collateral measure yet for poor 
countries because it cancels the debts that the eligible countries owe 
to the World Bank, International Monetary Fund and other multilateral 
lenders such as the African Development Bank in exchange for the 
countries themselves. "Right now its indenture. But we're certain it 
will soon slip into out and out slavery and the re-colonization of much 
of Africa and Latin America. Looks like we're gonna hafta do some 
wholesale killin' in Bolivia, but that's all part of the fun," said the 
British chancellor of the exchequer, Gordon Brown.

Previous plans offering partial relief have led to disappointment and 
criticism from aid activists, who said many poor countries are forced to 
spend more on debt service -- paying principal and interest on 
international loans -- than on health and education. "This way there 
will be no health and education to worry about. Breathing will amount to 
an education for those folks," commented Cormie Trask of Amnesty 
International. "I just hate conflict."

Under the agreement, 18 countries would receive immediate forgiveness on 
more than $40 billion that they owe in coming years, in return for 80% 
of their arable land which will be auctioned off in an open auction to 
anyone with the capital purchase this property in lots greater than 
4,000,000 hectares. "Smaller lots would have made the auctions too 
cumbersome," snickered the British Exchequer.

Most of these Neo-Colonies are in Africa: Benin, Burkina Faso, Ethiopia, 
Ghana, Madagascar, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Niger, Rwanda, Senegal, 
Tanzania, Uganda and Zambia. Four others -- Bolivia, Guyana, Honduras 
and Nicaragua -- are in Latin America. Another nine African nations are 
likely to qualify as soon the IMF drains their Central banks of scarce 
currency, so that they can get on with satisfying IMF and World Bank 
requirements for improving their governance and economic policies which 
includes Privatization And Western Purchase Of De-Nationalized Mines, 
Utilities; No Unions & Low Wages; No Healthcare; Land Forfeiture; No 
Commies Or Socialists; IMF Managed Food Programs & Destruction Of 
Indigenous Crops And Their Seeds, Replaced With Sterile Western Seed 
Requiring Hard Currency For Annual Purchase; Foreign Presence On 
National Bank And Currency Boards, Maintenance Of Cronyism With West, 
Structural Adjustment Loans, Foreign Military Presence etc. etc. Ad 
Nauseam Until After A Few Years The Country And Its People Are Worse Off 
Than If The White People Had Colonized Mars or Been Taken Up In The 
Rapture Like They Fuckin' Promised. Another 11 countries could also 
'benefit' eventually. Exchequer Brown explained, "By 'benefit,' we mean 
death would come sooner."

*Poor Bolivians Are "Just Asking For It," Says Treasury Secretary Snow.*

"We are conscious of the abject poverty that we have created in so many 
countries and that individuals face. We're being driven forward by the 
urgent need to complete that process through 'debt relief' and other 
legalized forms of murder," said Gordon Brown, the British chancellor of 
the exchequer, at a news conference after the meeting. His American 
counterpart, Treasury Secretary John W. Snow, called the pact "an 
achievement of historic economic proportions" and echoing Ronald Reagan 
when he signed the bill that led to the de-regulation of the Savings and 
Loan industry leading to a $20 trillion grift, "We've hit the jackpot." 
He added that nationalization has been "locking these poorest countries 
into poverty and preventing their corrupt elites from selling their 
resources to companies I represent," a situation he called "morally 
disappointing. I mean. Isn't that a sin, what's happening in Bolivia?"

*U.S. Careful To make Sure Money Flows Upward*

The accord was a coup for the British government, which has a raft of 
former colonies it hopes to put back under its yoke. Britain took the 
lead in exhorting other rich countries to come to Africa's sell off with 
the aim of producing a far-reaching package of measures next month at 
the G-8 summit in Gleneagles, Scotland. The U.S. is lukewarm on the 
proposal because none of the effected colonies belonged to them. If this 
debt relief don't throw something into the package for us like the rest 
of Mexico or a piece of Canada, I don't know how much bread we're gonna 
kick in said Snow. "We'll have to add up how much of the tax payer 
funding will be stolen by U.S. corporations before we commit to a figure."

So it does not cover all poor countries, and it involved important 
compromises with the Cheney administration, which also favored full debt 
for collateral relief but differed with London about how to go about it. 
It does not include an even more ambitious British proposal, viewed 
negatively by Washington, to double about $50 billion in aid given 
annually by rich countries because its not certain U.S. corporations 
will be in line to steal that money.

*Geldof, Bono Shill For The Thieves*

Aid activists cab be blamed for playing crucial roles in marshaling 
popular support for debt forgiveness through neo-colonial 
re-approachment, naively cheered yesterday's announcement while voicing 
determination to press for more of the same Draconian measures. A group 
of celebrities, led by rock musicians Bob Geldof and Bono, is planning 
free concerts and rallies in the hope of spurring the G-8 to adopt the 
debt-doubling plan. "I don't know what those fucks smoke, but they're 
ignorance sure make these fuckin' grifts go down easy with distracted, 
sentimentally nano-involved, stupid youth. Christ. Maybe we'll colonize 
their dumb asses next. Oh! We already have."

*"If You're Poor. Today is A Good Day To Die."*

"The journey of equality took another step today into the shit, and by a 
horrible death broke free millions of people in some of the poorest 
countries whose bondage of immoral and unjust debts now face exponential 
increase," Bono said in an e-mailed statement. "There's long nights 
ahead of us all to contemplate our guilt and complicity in these murders 
even if we were outmaneuvered by vicious international greed mongers and 
murderers at every turn. I realize now that I should stick to writing 
nursery rhymes for adults."

Greed got the better of Neil Watkins, national coordinator of the 
Jubilee USA Network, a group that has put primary emphasis on 
unforgiving debt forgiveness. He said the accord "is an important first 
step, but the deal must be expanded to include all impoverished 
countries" rather than the G-8's more restrictive list. Among the low- 
and lower-middle income nations that do not qualify are Indonesia and 
Nigeria, for example. "Any country not now in the G-8 should be made 
some G-8 country's lap dog. Its colony.

Reaction in Africa from the elites of countries that stand to benefit 
was generally enthusiastic. "That's great news for me. It will be good 
for my bank account that funnels money directly from education, health 
and poverty eradication etc.," Ugandan Information Minister James Nsaba 
Buturo told the Assassinated Press. Finance Minister Ng'andu P. Magande 
of Zambia told the Reuters news agency that he already had plans for the 
money his country would save, including a new GMC Azteck, a private jet 
from Lockheed-Martin and the purchase of a large block of United Airways 
stock for his brother-in-law.

In Kenya, which does not qualify under the program, a senior official 
voiced a complaint commonly heard about debt relief plans -- "Why ain't 
we gettin' anything to steal. They reward the thieves who fail to mask 
their theft at the expense of western taxpayers. But those who make it 
appear that they are faithful in servicing their debt like Kenya are 
being ignored," Kenyan Planning and National Development Minister Peter 
Anyang Nyongo told Reuters. "The little darkie jis' don't git how it 
works," explained John 'Yellow' Snow.

An important breakthrough toward the accord came in the last few days 
when U.S. and British policymakers without anyone from the affected 
countries present reached a compromise on how much booty in the form of 
international-credits U.S. corporations could expect after a meeting 
Tuesday in Washington between George Bush's handlers and Prime Minister 
Tony Blair.

Up to that point, Washington and London had been divided over how to 
swindle the debts owed to the World Bank, IMF and African Development 
Bank, which the rich nations control through their dominant voting power 
on the institutions' boards. U.S. officials favored an approach that 
would essentially pay for debt cancellation out of the newly controlled 
resources of the affected countries. The British, fearful of undermining 
the financial strength of those companies now in control of the 
resources, favored a plan by which rich countries would appear to assume 
the burden of making the debt payments owed by the poor nations, but 
default leaving another round of looting in the form of collateral open 
for companies that might be left out of the current feeding frenzy.

The deal announced yesterday struck middle ground. A communique issued 
by the G-8 said donor countries would use their new found booty from the 
debtor companies to appear to provide "additional contributions" to the 
World Bank and African Development Bank "making it look like we offset 
dollar for dollar the foregone principal and interest of the debt 
cancelled," with the new contributions apportioned in the same manner as 
existing contributions e.g. "back to us in effect doubling the debt 
repayment while collateralizing every living thing in those countries."

Even after the Americans and British had struck an deal, they had to 
overcome objections from other members of the G-8, including Germany, 
which has long taken a dim view of blanket debt-forgiveness schemes 
preferring just marching in with jackboots high behind Panzer divisions. 
Other members of the group are Japan, France, Italy, Canada and Russia.

Debt forgiveness plans have been announced before with great fanfare, 
but they have often fallen far short of the hoped-for results. Some 
critics contend this is because the countries that contribute are 
hopelessly corrupt, while others contend that the terms have simply been 
too draconian.

In the 1980s and early 1990s, rich countries forgave much of the debt 
owed to them directly by poor countries in exchange for the debtor 
countries mineral and human resources under successively more generous 
plans to lenders.

Since those deals left countries in more debt to the IMF and World Bank 
but not utterly broken and destitute, a new program was launched in 1996 
to increase those obligations and it was expanded in 1999. Yesterday's 
plan is aimed at wiping the slate clean, at least for the countries that 
qualify, once and for all. "They won't own shit in their own countries 
by the time we're through with them, not even the liquids oozing from 
their bodies. Then when we start bringing all the old colonial names 
back, and burying bodies by the millions, we'll see how those stem cell 
knuckledraggers and the Germans feel about debt relief," laughed Snow.



<http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/index.html>



ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:

> Soporific, propagandistical nonsense:
>
>> "I too love jeans and jazz and Treasure Island / and John Silver's 
>> parrot
>> and the balconies of New Orleans. / I love Mark Twain and the 
>> Mississippi
>> steamboats and Abraham Lincoln's dogs. / I love the fields of wheat 
>> and corn and
>> the smell of Virginia tobacco. / But I am not American. /
>
>
>
> There are Iraqis who have become loyal Americans, riding with the Lone 
> Star Rangers.  But, this dope went to Moscow and lives in a fog. His 
> "America" is culled from French tourist guides.
>
> We liberated his kind from his own homegrown bloody tyrant.  But, I am 
> certain Senator Durbin can quote him in his next misrepresentations 
> and whinings.
>
> The careful reader will note that there will be NO condemnations from 
> this fellow or any with whom he marches of today's London's 
> IslamoFascist military terrorist attack.  Because he hasn't the 
> conscience or guts to stand up to them.  He'd rather get a RadLib 
> welfare check from George Soros.
>
>>  Is that enough for
>> the  Phantom pilot to turn me back to the Stone Age?
>
>
> Hey, Baby, you were in the Stone Age long before Saddam/Arafat peeled 
> off 20k for another Bomb Belt.
>
>>  / I need neither oil nor
>> America  herself, neither the elephant nor the donkey. / Leave me, 
>> pilot, leave
>> my house  roofed with palm fronds and this wooden bridge. / I need 
>> neither
>> your Golden  Gate nor your skyscrapers. / I need the village, not New 
>> York."
>
>
> Didn't he just say that he preferred the Stone Age?  What he really 
> wants is a Neo STONED Age.
>
> This STUFF sounds like Cafe Wha bongo drum beard spit.  Plays right 
> into the RadLib/Dick Durbin/Boxer/Pelosi/Teddy K Quisling agenda.
>
>>
>> Youssef's attention to details while maintaining this process of 
>> surprise
>> and discovery
>>
>>  is what gives the poems fluidity and a sense of urgency,
>
>
> And impervious stupidity that hasn't the guts to stand up to the Zark.
>
>>
>>  making it
>>  hard to leave them behind.
>
>
> What a joke.
>
>
>>  They stay with you and bid you to return to the
>
> spaces they occupy again and again.
>
>
> If you need a fix of crybaby cliched farrago.
>
>
> ======
>
> R ------------------------------------------------------- D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul  7 16:48:01 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:48:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dogeaters of the world unite.
In-Reply-To: <a05100302bef32a2c23d6@[204.215.201.133]>
References: <a05100302bef32a2c23d6@[204.215.201.133]>
Message-ID: <42CD9501.9010800@ix.netcom.com>

When a fire in the belly moves down to the lower intestines or is it 
time for Richard to enlist for example shit or get off the pot.

At first, Richard's bellows seems like a formidable contraption. But 
very quickly, a couple of personal exchanges, one learns that Richard 
knows nothing. Absolutely nothing. Its an astonishing ignorance and must 
require immense discipline.

My introduction to Richard was a fanciful litany he was providing about 
the current leader of  North Korea---"Kim Il Sung" as he repeatedly 
called him. At that time, I simply pointed out that the current leader 
of  N.  Korea was Kim Jong Il.

Then, shortly thereafter a number of listees were defending Richard as 
not being a racist. This was amusing because Richard in his earlier 
exegesis had called Asians "dog eaters" and thought it was cute.

FIZZ

 

ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:

> Soporific, propagandistical nonsense:
>
>> "I too love jeans and jazz and Treasure Island / and John Silver's 
>> parrot
>> and the balconies of New Orleans. / I love Mark Twain and the 
>> Mississippi
>> steamboats and Abraham Lincoln's dogs. / I love the fields of wheat 
>> and corn and
>> the smell of Virginia tobacco. / But I am not American. /
>
>
>
> There are Iraqis who have become loyal Americans, riding with the Lone 
> Star Rangers.  But, this dope went to Moscow and lives in a fog. His 
> "America" is culled from French tourist guides.
>
> We liberated his kind from his own homegrown bloody tyrant.  But, I am 
> certain Senator Durbin can quote him in his next misrepresentations 
> and whinings.
>
> The careful reader will note that there will be NO condemnations from 
> this fellow or any with whom he marches of today's London's 
> IslamoFascist military terrorist attack.  Because he hasn't the 
> conscience or guts to stand up to them.  He'd rather get a RadLib 
> welfare check from George Soros.
>
>>  Is that enough for
>> the  Phantom pilot to turn me back to the Stone Age?
>
>
> Hey, Baby, you were in the Stone Age long before Saddam/Arafat peeled 
> off 20k for another Bomb Belt.
>
>>  / I need neither oil nor
>> America  herself, neither the elephant nor the donkey. / Leave me, 
>> pilot, leave
>> my house  roofed with palm fronds and this wooden bridge. / I need 
>> neither
>> your Golden  Gate nor your skyscrapers. / I need the village, not New 
>> York."
>
>
> Didn't he just say that he preferred the Stone Age?  What he really 
> wants is a Neo STONED Age.
>
> This STUFF sounds like Cafe Wha bongo drum beard spit.  Plays right 
> into the RadLib/Dick Durbin/Boxer/Pelosi/Teddy K Quisling agenda.
>
>>
>> Youssef's attention to details while maintaining this process of 
>> surprise
>> and discovery
>>
>>  is what gives the poems fluidity and a sense of urgency,
>
>
> And impervious stupidity that hasn't the guts to stand up to the Zark.
>
>>
>>  making it
>>  hard to leave them behind.
>
>
> What a joke.
>
>
>>  They stay with you and bid you to return to the
>
> spaces they occupy again and again.
>
>
> If you need a fix of crybaby cliched farrago.
>
>
> ======
>
> R ------------------------------------------------------- D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul  7 17:27:31 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:27:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] May Swenson remembered
Message-ID: <1e2.3f86f2f5.2ffef843@aol.com>

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2841987?rss
 
Utah poet finally handed her laurels
Significant voice: The late May Swenson, obscure in her home state, will be 
honored at the Smithsonian gallery
By Kristen Moulton 
The Salt Lake Tribune  
 
  May Swenson, a renowned poet who was born in Logan and died in 1989, will 
soon have her portrait hung in the National Portrait Gallery at the 
Smithsonian.    
 
LOGAN - May Swenson may not be known by most folks in the town where she grew 
up riding stick horses among the poplars at the bottom of Old Main Hill, 
scrubbing floors for her large Mormon family and writing in her adolescent diary. 
   Nor does Utah take much notice of Swenson, who died in Delaware in 1989. 
   And yet, her portrait will soon hang in the National Portrait Gallery of 
the Smithsonian Institution, a distinction shared by Brigham Young and Robert 
Leroy Parker, aka Butch Cassidy, among other Utahns. 
 
    "It's a real honor for the state as well as for May," says Suzzanne 
Bigelow of Salt Lake City, co-author of the 1996 book May Swenson, A Poet's Life in 
Photos. 
   It also is recognition that Swenson, though largely unknown in her home 
town and state, is nonetheless regarded as a significant 20th century American 
poet. 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul  7 17:28:41 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:28:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Ferry
Message-ID: <204.520b330.2ffef889@aol.com>

http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2005/07/07/for_poet_classics_translate
_into_success/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+Living+%2F+Arts+News
 
For poet, classics translate into success
By David Mehegan, Globe Staff  |  July 7, 2005
 
CAMBRIDGE -- In the book-lined precincts of David and Anne Ferry's antique 
Greek revival home, you can easily picture Ralph Waldo Emerson, standing in the 
foyer with hat in hand. In 1842, he paid a call on the feminist critic 
Margaret Fuller, who owned the house at the time. But move to the rear veranda where 
poet and translator David Ferry settled into a chair for an interview, and the 
din of passing trucks and car horns yanks you back to the present.
 
Ferry's own life and work lately have been like that: the raw present and the 
deep past. He's a plain-spoken American, who looks like a professor as played 
by Henry Fonda. Yet his fame has spread lately for English translations of 
poets dead for thousands of years. Somehow, he has found ways to make those 
ancient voices fresh.
 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul  7 17:35:27 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:35:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] London
Message-ID: <001c01c5833b$cabb2a60$74a83252@ANNY>

I am forwarding from another list:

Hotline for Americans in London

For information about Americans who may have been affected by the
bombings in London, call (888) 407-4747. Friends and relatives worried about
loved ones can call the casualty helpline on 0870 1566 344.

Police in London have also set up an anti-terrorist hotline on 0800 789
321. The Transport For London interactive service on Sky Active has all the
latest information on London transport closures. To access the service,
press "interactive" and select Sky Active. Alternatively, call TFL on 0208
358 0101 or go to the website.

In order to help commuters get home, TFL has announced that all riverboat
services on the Thames are free. Go to the website to see where and when you
can pick up a boat. A US emergency telephone line has been set up for
missing Americans on 1-888-407-4747. Police have asked people not to call
999 unless they have a life threatening emergency. (hat tip Greatscat )

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/07/07.html#a3807


________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul  7 18:03:26 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:03:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] May Swenson remembered
References: <1e2.3f86f2f5.2ffef843@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c801c5833f$b396ccf0$56b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

 
  Utah poet finally handed her laurels

  Significant voice: The late May Swenson, obscure in her home state, will be honored at the Smithsonian gallery

  Don't be too upset with them--they probably didn't know she composed more than a few visual poems.

  --Bob G.
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul  7 19:13:54 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:13:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] London
In-Reply-To: <001c01c5833b$cabb2a60$74a83252@ANNY>
References: <001c01c5833b$cabb2a60$74a83252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <42CDB732.7010905@ix.netcom.com>

Hotline for Iraqis in Iraq:

Iraqis who have been affected by the recent aerial bombings of the 
al-Qaim region by American and British forces *call (sorry Americans 
knocked out phone service 2 years ago). Friends and relatives worried about
loved ones can go fuck themselves.

Iraqis **in Qaim have also set up an anti-imperialist hotline on 0800 789
321, a cell phone number that will be discarded in 10 minutes.
*

Anny Ballardini wrote:

> I am forwarding from another list:
>  
> *Hotline for Americans in London
>
> For information about Americans who may have been affected by the
> bombings in London, call (888) 407-4747. Friends and relatives worried 
> about
> loved ones can call the casualty helpline on 0870 1566 344.
>
> Police in London have also set up an anti-terrorist hotline on 0800 789
> 321. The Transport For London interactive service on Sky Active has 
> all the
> latest information on London transport closures. To access the service,
> press "interactive" and select Sky Active. Alternatively, call TFL on 0208
> 358 0101 or go to the website.
>
> In order to help commuters get home, TFL has announced that all riverboat
> services on the Thames are free. Go to the website to see where and 
> when you
> can pick up a boat. A US emergency telephone line has been set up for
> missing Americans on 1-888-407-4747. Police have asked people not to call
> 999 unless they have a life threatening emergency. (hat tip Greatscat )
>
> **http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/07/07.html#a3807*
> ** 
>  
> ________________________________________
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a 
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul  7 20:46:53 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:46:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] London
In-Reply-To: <001c01c5833b$cabb2a60$74a83252@ANNY>
References: <001c01c5833b$cabb2a60$74a83252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <42CDCCFD.3050707@ix.netcom.com>

$40 Billion More In Security Money Required For 2012 Olympics:
"Thank God. It Was Only The Fodder That Take Public Transport," Said A 
Relieved Blair.:
G-8 Leaders Prepare To Incubate Millions More Terrorists With Their 
'Policies':
"As Long As Those Fuckers Can't Get At Me, What The Shit Do I Care," 
Bush Overheard Telling Blair At Gathering Of Stooges For International 
Banks And Corporations.:
Blasts Conveniently Timed, Poorly Aimed, Say Most Of World's People:
"With Big Name Fuckers So Close Why Couldn't Bombers Have Taken Them Out 
And Saved The World This Endless Grief," Those Polled Say:
London Olympics To Mark 15th Year of War In Iraq, Against Terrorism:
War In Iraq Declared An Olympic Sport:
"History Records That Our Intention At These G-8 Conferences Is To Hurt 
People. To Hurt Them Really Bad. And To Slaughter As Many Of Them As 
Possible," Said U.S. Trade Representative Buckley 'Scooter' Welkes IV

By MUDDIN CRUDSLINGER
Assassinated Press Economics Writer
July 7, 2005
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/

GLENOGLES, Scatland -- World leaders united in a show of temerity 
condemning Thursday's deadly bombings in London as an attack on all 
nations even as they vowed to continue to take human life all over the 
globe by foisting their policies by force on nations around the world.

"We shall prevail and they shall not. We have proven we can murder more 
of them than they can imagine," declared the Group of Eight leaders and 
the heads of five developing nations meeting with them here. Their joint 
statement was read by British Prime Minister Tony Blair, flanked by his 
somber summit colleagues and thousands of military and police security 
people and he appeared to take it as a personal affront that anyone 
would have the nerve to strike at the Empire after its engagement in 
centuries long campaigns to slaughter little brown people and steal 
their sustenance.

"We will not yield to these people unless they figure out a way to get 
at my ass," Faux President Bush said minutes later. "Then I say shoot 
Karl."

*Blasts Conveniently Timed, Poorly Aimed, Say Most Of World's People*

The leaders, already protected for their annual summit by extraordinary 
security measures that local authorities said remained sufficient, said 
the attacks would not halt their meeting focused on the issues of 
exacerbating global warming and increasing African poverty.

Officials said since no one of consequence remotely suffered in the 
London attacks, they did not disrupt major work at the summit as leaders 
divided up more of the expected booty from the ongoing African grift. 
However, the leaders delayed Thursday's scheduled release of gasses on 
climate change as well as release their junk yard dogs from the Chicago 
School and the Harvard Business School on the global economy until Friday.

"We will not allow violence to reach the elite or give us values nor 
will we allow it to stop the staging of this summit," Blair said on the 
leaders' behalf. "We will continue our deliberations in the interest of 
a better ways to bunko the world."

The impact of the explosions -- which Blair said seemed designed to 
coincide with the meeting -- was barley felt at this exclusive golf 
resort about 450 miles from London.

Repeated, nearly simultaneous blasts rocked the London subway and tore 
open at least one packed double-decker bus, both modes of transportation 
reserved for the poor and the working class. Deaths and injuries mounted 
among the common fodder and officials shut down the entire underground 
transport network which in no way restricted those who travel by private 
jet or taxpayer financed military transport.

*After Blasts, Bush Caught 'Drinking' From A Garden Hose; Arouses 
Suspicions Among Staff That Faux Pres Is Disengaged.*

G-8 leaders took a long break in their morning opening session so they 
could indulge some of their more lascivious past times while their 
lackies wrote a joint statement to reassure everyone that they were 
safe. Bush slept through frequent updates, while his handlers, Andrew 
Card and Stephen Hadley conferred briefly via secure video conference 
from his hotel suite with U.S. homeland security and national security 
functionaries.

Blair was rushed from the summit only to be returned to London for 
briefings, carrying with him to the British people, Bush said, "a 
message of 'solitarity'" from the rest of the world.

There were no plans to return Bush to Washington early while all the 
bathrooms in the White House are being redone, White House spokesman 
Scott McClellan said.

They planned to return Blair to Glenogles for the summit's final day of 
talks on Friday.

The attacks also highlighted the continuing divide between U.S. industry 
through their stooge Bush and European and Asian industry through their 
stooge Blair and the other leaders on how to tackle global warming.

There was no immediate word on who will be held responsible for the 
blasts Iraq already leveled to the ground, Afghanistan far to rugged and 
complex for the simple minded westerner to vanquish, and MI5, the CIA 
and the Mossad the most likely suspects.

"It is reasonably clear that this is a terrorist attack or a series of 
terrorist attacks," Blair said. "We know. We do terrorist attacks and 
this is how we do 'em."

*Ways To Speed Up Global Warming Discussed Over Bribes*

A joint payment was quickly agreed to by the leaders of the G-8 
countries -- United States, Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, 
Japan and Russia -- as well as the leaders of China, India, Brazil, 
Mexico and South Africa who met with them Thursday to discuss ways to 
accelerate global warming.

They noted that all their countries had benefited from the impact of 
imperialism and racism.

"We are united in our resolve to continue and increase this imperialism 
that is not an attack on one nation but on all nations and on civilized 
people everywhere," the statement said.

*Bush Calls Spades*

Said Bush: "The contrast couldn't be clearer between the intentions and 
the hearts of those of us who care deeply about human rights and human 
liberty and me, who has got such evil in his heart that he will take the 
lives of innocent folks by the millions using the most powerful army 
known to mankind.

"The war for imperial power goes on," he added.

Many G-8 leaders had sharp disagreements with Bush and Blair over the 
U.S.-led war in Iraq. But chairmanships and endowments were dispensed, 
they were united Thursday in condemning the London attacks and pledging 
intensified efforts to increase American and British imperialism.

German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder called the blasts "harmless swats 
missing the kleptocracy by a kilometer" and said imperialism may be 
fought "with all the means at their disposal, but we imperialists will 
prevail." Paraphrasing Sartre, French President Jacques Chirac said the 
attacks were "nothing" and that "our scorn for human life is something 
we must maintain even as our victims cry out for revenge for their 
children."

Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin expressed condolences to the victims 
of the blasts while Russian President Valdimir Putin said the attacks 
showed "we are doing too little to grease the palms of me and my cronies 
in our efforts in the most effective way in the take battle of 
imperialism to little brown people yet again."

The attacks came as Bush and Blair were meeting over breakfast and 
answering questions from reporters and before all the leaders were due 
to begin the summit's general session.

*Bombings Great Smokescreen, Opportunity To Steal*

"It's particularly fortunate that this has happened on a day when people 
are meeting to try to help rip off Africa, talk to death the long-term 
problems of climate change and the environment," Blair told reporters. 
"Now, we can say we need the money for added security and suck Africa 
and the environment fuckin' dry."

On climate change, Bush and Blair failed to bridge corporate differences 
which as far as big business is concerned is better than any agreement.

"Now is the time to get beyond the Kyoto protocol and develop a strategy 
my powerbase whom most call the elite and whom I serve at their pleasure 
will accept," Bush said.



<http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/index.html>



Anny Ballardini wrote:

> I am forwarding from another list:
>  
> *Hotline for Americans in London
>
> For information about Americans who may have been affected by the
> bombings in London, call (888) 407-4747. Friends and relatives worried 
> about
> loved ones can call the casualty helpline on 0870 1566 344.
>
> Police in London have also set up an anti-terrorist hotline on 0800 789
> 321. The Transport For London interactive service on Sky Active has 
> all the
> latest information on London transport closures. To access the service,
> press "interactive" and select Sky Active. Alternatively, call TFL on 0208
> 358 0101 or go to the website.
>
> In order to help commuters get home, TFL has announced that all riverboat
> services on the Thames are free. Go to the website to see where and 
> when you
> can pick up a boat. A US emergency telephone line has been set up for
> missing Americans on 1-888-407-4747. Police have asked people not to call
> 999 unless they have a life threatening emergency. (hat tip Greatscat )
>
> **http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/07/07.html#a3807*
> ** 
>  
> ________________________________________
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a 
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
>


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Jul  7 21:55:23 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:55:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: London
Message-ID: <s2cd96dc.069@mail.highland.edu>

Say, Carlo, thanks for reminding us with such clever righteousness (in
your response to Anny's post) that the imperialist conquest of Iraq is a
BAD THING. You are our voice of conscience. Without you, our moral
compass would be spinning like a dervish.

But, like, are we to understand, then, that you think the setting off
bombs in crowded subway stations is a "justifiable thing"? 

Do tell us, Carlos!


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul  7 22:39:56 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:39:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: London
In-Reply-To: <s2cd96dc.069@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2cd96dc.069@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42CDE77C.4090401@ix.netcom.com>

No. I think Anny had simply forgotten to communicate the list of numbers 
where relatives of the victims of the recent Qaim bombings could get 
information about their dead amd maimed relatives. I'm certain Anny 
appreciates my correcting the oversight. FIZZ

Kent Johnson wrote:

>Say, Carlo, thanks for reminding us with such clever righteousness (in
>your response to Anny's post) that the imperialist conquest of Iraq is a
>BAD THING. You are our voice of conscience. Without you, our moral
>compass would be spinning like a dervish.
>
>But, like, are we to understand, then, that you think the setting off
>bombs in crowded subway stations is a "justifiable thing"? 
>
>Do tell us, Carlos!
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul  7 22:42:12 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:42:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: London
In-Reply-To: <s2cd96dc.069@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2cd96dc.069@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42CDE804.3050408@ix.netcom.com>

<You are our voice of conscience.>

Well, certainly where you are concerned someone has to be. FIZZ



Kent Johnson wrote:

>Say, Carlo, thanks for reminding us with such clever righteousness (in
>your response to Anny's post) that the imperialist conquest of Iraq is a
>BAD THING. You are our voice of conscience. Without you, our moral
>compass would be spinning like a dervish.
>
>But, like, are we to understand, then, that you think the setting off
>bombs in crowded subway stations is a "justifiable thing"? 
>
>Do tell us, Carlos!
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Jul  7 22:57:01 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:57:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: London
In-Reply-To: <42CDE77C.4090401@ix.netcom.com>
References: <s2cd96dc.069@mail.highland.edu> <42CDE77C.4090401@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05070719577cdd4895@mail.gmail.com>

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little 
statesmen and philosophers and divines.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
     Jeff Newberry

 On 7/7/05, Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com> wrote: 
> 
> No. I think Anny had simply forgotten to communicate the list of numbers
> where relatives of the victims of the recent Qaim bombings could get
> information about their dead amd maimed relatives. I'm certain Anny
> appreciates my correcting the oversight. FIZZ
> 
> Kent Johnson wrote:
> 
> >Say, Carlo, thanks for reminding us with such clever righteousness (in
> >your response to Anny's post) that the imperialist conquest of Iraq is a
> >BAD THING. You are our voice of conscience. Without you, our moral
> >compass would be spinning like a dervish.
> >
> >But, like, are we to understand, then, that you think the setting off
> >bombs in crowded subway stations is a "justifiable thing"?
> >
> >Do tell us, Carlos!
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jul  7 23:05:26 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:05:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: London
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05070719577cdd4895@mail.gmail.com>
References: <s2cd96dc.069@mail.highland.edu> <42CDE77C.4090401@ix.netcom.com>
	<731bb17a05070719577cdd4895@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42CDED76.1080902@ix.netcom.com>

<A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by 
little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson>

A perfect description of the quality of mind driving the G-8 talks. Our 
gratitude to Jeff---who is about as much in sympathy with Emerson as 
Anny is with Nietzsche. FIZZ


Jeff Newberry wrote:

> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by 
> little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
> --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Jeff Newberry
>
>  
> On 7/7/05, *Alphaville* <alphavil at ix.netcom.com 
> <mailto:alphavil at ix.netcom.com>> wrote:
>
>     No. I think Anny had simply forgotten to communicate the list of
>     numbers
>     where relatives of the victims of the recent Qaim bombings could get
>     information about their dead amd maimed relatives. I'm certain Anny
>     appreciates my correcting the oversight. FIZZ
>
>     Kent Johnson wrote:
>
>     >Say, Carlo, thanks for reminding us with such clever
>     righteousness (in
>     >your response to Anny's post) that the imperialist conquest of
>     Iraq is a
>     >BAD THING. You are our voice of conscience. Without you, our moral
>     >compass would be spinning like a dervish.
>     >
>     >But, like, are we to understand, then, that you think the setting
>     off
>     >bombs in crowded subway stations is a "justifiable thing"?
>     >
>     >Do tell us, Carlos!
>     >_______________________________________________
>     >New-Poetry mailing list
>     > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>                                                    --Miguel de Unamuno
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
>


From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au  Fri Jul  8 02:09:35 2005
From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:09:35 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <200507051600.j65G05Rf028845@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20050708060935.14663.qmail@web51408.mail.yahoo.com>

thanks Anny, Rob.

new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: Kooser's intros (The Old Mole)
2. Re: American Life in Poetry (Kent Johnson)
3. Re: Re: American Life in Poetry (Chris Stroffolino )
4. Re: Re: American Life in Poetry (The Old Mole)
5. Re: Kooser's intros (Bob Grumman)
6. Re: Re: American Life in Poetry (Bob Grumman)
7. Re: Kooser's intros (The Old Mole)
8. Foetry Again (Jeff Newberry)
9. Independence Day (Jeff Newberry)
10. Winter edition of Malleable Jangle now online (robert lane)
11. Re: Winter edition of Malleable Jangle now online 
(Anny Ballardini)
12. Re: Winter edition of Malleable Jangle now online 
(Halvard Johnson)
13. Re: Winter edition of Malleable Jangle now online 
(Anny Ballardini)
14. Poems by Others: Thom Gunn (Jeff Newberry)
15. Philip Hobsbaum (Robin Hamilton)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:34:53 -0400
From: "The Old Mole" 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views"

Message-ID: <003501c580b6$52d410c0$6401a8c0 at MoleHQ>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>>Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. <<


Spoken like a taxonomist. And in this case, meant as a compliment. That's well-observed and well-put, and I suspect I'll use it in the future.



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob Grumman 
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views 
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros


Often everyday experiences provide poets with inspiration. Here Georgiana Cohen observes a woman looking out her window and compares the woman to the sunset. The woman's "slumped" chin, the fence that separates them, and the "beached" cars set the poem's tone; this is clearly not a celebration of the neighborhood. Yet by turning to clouds, sky, and breath, Cohen underscores the scene's fragile grace.


Old Woman in a Housecoat

An old woman in
a floor-length housecoat
has become sunset
to me, west-facing.
Turquoise, sage, or rose,
she leans out of her
second floor window,
chin slumped in her palm,
and gazes at the
fenced property line
between us, the cars
beached in the driveway,
the creeping slide of
light across shingles.
When the window shuts,
dusk becomes blush and
bruises, projected
on vinyl siding.
Housecoats breathe across
the sky like frail clouds.


A better question might be: how does the speaker know it's a floor-length housecoat if the woman is leaning out of a second-story window? And who is facing west, the woman or the observer? 
RS Gwynn 

Same questions occurred to me. I decided the speaker had an angle down on the old woman and/or had seen her in the housecoat before, so knew its length, and that the old woman was facing west--because the dusk is said to be reflected on the vinyl siding the speaker, I assume, is looking at after the window shuts. If I was the poet's workshop teacher, I'd have suggested "though facing west" instead of 
"west-facing." And maybe "in/ HER floor-length housecoat" rather than "in/ A floor-length housecoat"--to suggest the speaker knows of the housecoat from seeing it other times. 

I do think getting these details right is important. Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. 



--Bob G. 









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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:51:18 -0500
From: "Kent Johnson" 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
To: 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

>I know you won't understand this but it's possible to believe there are
people who have a negative influence on the state of American Poetry,
and even to call them Enemies of Poetry, without believing in some kind
of conspiracy.<

I don't believe Ted Kooser has any kind of "negative influence" on the
state of American poetry. In what ways would the non-existence of his
aesthetic make American poetry "better"? There is never an "American
poetry," anyway. There are American poetrIES. It's a swarming,
interdependent field. Thesis, antithesis, fractal swirling, and all
that.

In fact, Bob, and I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way at all, just
as a statement of fact, and to me it seems pretty obvious and evident:
Without the "Kooser aesthetic" your oppositional, marginalized aesthetic
goes into non-existence. You should *thank* your "enemies," for without
them, you would have a lot less to talk about, really.

I think Ted Kooser is one of the best things to happen to "American
poetry" in a long time. And he's also probably a perfectly nice man. He
certainly has the most endearing ears of any living poet.

Kent



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:22:28 -0800
From: "Chris Stroffolino " 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views"

Message-ID: <200507041659.j64GvhRh138278 at pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Yes, but if Ted Koppel was a poet, his ears might be a little cuter
in that elfin sort of way.

C

----------
>From: "Kent Johnson" 
>To: 
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
>Date: Mon, Jul 4, 2005, 8:51 AM
>

> He
> certainly has the most endearing ears of any living poet.
>
> Kent


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:13:57 -0400
From: "The Old Mole" 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views"

Message-ID: <006c01c580bb$c628a7c0$6401a8c0 at MoleHQ>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

And if Ted Kaczynski was a poet, we might REALLY have burstnorm.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Stroffolino " 
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" 
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry


> Yes, but if Ted Koppel was a poet, his ears might be a little cuter
> in that elfin sort of way.
> 
> C
> 
> ----------
>>From: "Kent Johnson" 
>>To: 
>>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
>>Date: Mon, Jul 4, 2005, 8:51 AM
>>
> 
>> He
>> certainly has the most endearing ears of any living poet.
>>
>> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:18:42 -0400
From: "Bob Grumman" 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views"

Message-ID: <008501c580bc$6e3018e0$53b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



>>Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. <<


Spoken like a taxonomist. And in this case, meant as a compliment. That's well-observed and well-put, and I suspect I'll use it in the future.

Thanks, Mole--unless it means we can't be enemies, anymore.

--Bob G.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob Grumman 
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views 
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros


Often everyday experiences provide poets with inspiration. Here Georgiana Cohen observes a woman looking out her window and compares the woman to the sunset. The woman's "slumped" chin, the fence that separates them, and the "beached" cars set the poem's tone; this is clearly not a celebration of the neighborhood. Yet by turning to clouds, sky, and breath, Cohen underscores the scene's fragile grace.


Old Woman in a Housecoat

An old woman in
a floor-length housecoat
has become sunset
to me, west-facing.
Turquoise, sage, or rose,
she leans out of her
second floor window,
chin slumped in her palm,
and gazes at the
fenced property line
between us, the cars
beached in the driveway,
the creeping slide of
light across shingles.
When the window shuts,
dusk becomes blush and
bruises, projected
on vinyl siding.
Housecoats breathe across
the sky like frail clouds.


A better question might be: how does the speaker know it's a floor-length housecoat if the woman is leaning out of a second-story window? And who is facing west, the woman or the observer? 
RS Gwynn 

Same questions occurred to me. I decided the speaker had an angle down on the old woman and/or had seen her in the housecoat before, so knew its length, and that the old woman was facing west--because the dusk is said to be reflected on the vinyl siding the speaker, I assume, is looking at after the window shuts. If I was the poet's workshop teacher, I'd have suggested "though facing west" instead of 
"west-facing." And maybe "in/ HER floor-length housecoat" rather than "in/ A floor-length housecoat"--to suggest the speaker knows of the housecoat from seeing it other times. 

I do think getting these details right is important. Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. 


--Bob G. 







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New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:51:40 -0400
From: "Bob Grumman" 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Life in Poetry
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views"

Message-ID: <009301c580c9$6abadc60$53b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

> >I know you won't understand this but it's possible to believe there are
> people who have a negative influence on the state of American Poetry,
> and even to call them Enemies of Poetry, without believing in some kind
> of conspiracy.<
>
> I don't believe Ted Kooser has any kind of "negative influence" on the
> state of American poetry. In what ways would the non-existence of his
> aesthetic make American poetry "better"?

There would be one less body blocking people from the full range of American 
poetry. That would make the STATE of American poetry better.

> There is never an "American
> poetry," anyway. There are American poetrIES. It's a swarming,
> interdependent field. Thesis, antithesis, fractal swirling, and all
> that.

You're playing with words in a very silly way.

> In fact, Bob, and I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way at all, just
> as a statement of fact, and to me it seems pretty obvious and evident:
> Without the "Kooser aesthetic" your oppositional, marginalized aesthetic
> goes into non-existence. You should *thank* your "enemies," for without
> them, you would have a lot less to talk about, really.

My "aesthetic" has nothing to do with Kooser's, Kent, but I suspect you're 
too much of an agitpropper to be able to understand that. Without Kooser 
and all the other very similar poetry stasguards, I'd have less to pop off 
about at New-Poetry, and on my blog, but I would still have more than enough 
to TALK about. But we'll never be without Koosers.

> I think Ted Kooser is one of the best things to happen to "American
> poetry" in a long time.

I can't say I understand that. What's different about him and Collins or 
any of the other recent stasguards in American Poetry?

--Bob G. 




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:13:30 -0400
From: "The Old Mole" 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views"

Message-ID: <00a601c580e5$9ef09440$6401a8c0 at MoleHQ>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Nah, you can always count on me to be a true enemy of poetry.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob Grumman 
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views 
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros




>>Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. <<


Spoken like a taxonomist. And in this case, meant as a compliment. That's well-observed and well-put, and I suspect I'll use it in the future.

Thanks, Mole--unless it means we can't be enemies, anymore.

--Bob G.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob Grumman 
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views 
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's intros


Often everyday experiences provide poets with inspiration. Here Georgiana Cohen observes a woman looking out her window and compares the woman to the sunset. The woman's "slumped" chin, the fence that separates them, and the "beached" cars set the poem's tone; this is clearly not a celebration of the neighborhood. Yet by turning to clouds, sky, and breath, Cohen underscores the scene's fragile grace.


Old Woman in a Housecoat

An old woman in
a floor-length housecoat
has become sunset
to me, west-facing.
Turquoise, sage, or rose,
she leans out of her
second floor window,
chin slumped in her palm,
and gazes at the
fenced property line
between us, the cars
beached in the driveway,
the creeping slide of
light across shingles.
When the window shuts,
dusk becomes blush and
bruises, projected
on vinyl siding.
Housecoats breathe across
the sky like frail clouds.


A better question might be: how does the speaker know it's a floor-length housecoat if the woman is leaning out of a second-story window? And who is facing west, the woman or the observer? 
RS Gwynn 

Same questions occurred to me. I decided the speaker had an angle down on the old woman and/or had seen her in the housecoat before, so knew its length, and that the old woman was facing west--because the dusk is said to be reflected on the vinyl siding the speaker, I assume, is looking at after the window shuts. If I was the poet's workshop teacher, I'd have suggested "though facing west" instead of 
"west-facing." And maybe "in/ HER floor-length housecoat" rather than "in/ A floor-length housecoat"--to suggest the speaker knows of the housecoat from seeing it other times. 

I do think getting these details right is important. Their being slightly off doesn't ruin the poem by any means, but costs it maybe 5 percent of its effect, I think. 


--Bob G. 







--------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:59:17 -0400
From: Jeff Newberry 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry Again
To: NewPoetry 
Message-ID: <731bb17a050704155943ac065e at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

An article in *The Guardian* (
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1520560,00.html) dredges up Foetry 
again. 
Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:32:18 -0400
From: Jeff Newberry 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Independence Day
To: NewPoetry 
Message-ID: <731bb17a05070416322283f130 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/07/03/walt_whitmans_world/
Save us from the enemies of poetry, Uncle Walt. . . 
Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:52:11 +1000 (EST)
From: robert lane 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter edition of Malleable Jangle now online 
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: <20050705115211.2691.qmail at web51401.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

The Winter issue of Malleable Jangle AKA "The Orange Roses Edition" is now online. New poetry from Michael J Barney, Michael Estabrook, Jan Oskar Hansen, Richard Hillman, Peter Macrow, Sheila E Murphy, and Gregory Vincent St. Thomas.

http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com/index.htm

Hope to see you there. All the best, Robert Lane.




=== message truncated ===


Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings


Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul  8 03:06:57 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:06:57 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: London
References: <s2cd96dc.069@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <009201c5838b$a1192680$38e03652@ANNY>

Thank you Kent for standing up for me.

Europe (the old Europe) is very small. I went to London several times and 
once for a couple of months. Our parents went through the second WW, my 
father sent from the States on the D-day, and our grandparents went through 
the first - my grandfather was sent to Siberia as soon as he came back from 
the States. We are the surrogate of wars, maybe nobody more than us knows 
what it means. Carlo being of Italian origins, should also remember some.

And Carlo, if you see Kent Johnson's contribution for my Poets' Corner, you 
would maybe speak in a different way to him.
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=143

or to me, since I accepted it. Carlo is bombing sensitive people with 
material that makes them even more sensitive, and maybe cannot see the main 
broader lines that have triggered the actual state of events. Be them in 
Europe, Iraq or in the States. But please do not ask me further, I cannot 
write a historical book in this moment, you will have to let my comment drop 
here.

Re.: Nietzsche. He has been one of the greatest contributors to our human 
thought in his desperate solitary fight. I will take any occasion to 
underline this, thus thank you for this opportunity.

Take care,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing 
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche


From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:55 AM


> Say, Carlo, thanks for reminding us with such clever righteousness (in
> your response to Anny's post) that the imperialist conquest of Iraq is a
> BAD THING. You are our voice of conscience. Without you, our moral
> compass would be spinning like a dervish.
>
> But, like, are we to understand, then, that you think the setting off
> bombs in crowded subway stations is a "justifiable thing"?
>
> Do tell us, Carlos!





From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  8 11:01:53 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:01:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Gustaf Sobin
Message-ID: <1fa7c1da8dc742adc4e7f52aa6650d05@earthlink.net>


On an Instrument without Name

  	
nature being number, and
number, in its ebullient disorder, the very spores of
sounds, had sought, therein, the
lost radicals of some
late

ideation. holds but
hardly, you write. holds, but only by the slenderest
caulicles of a once-
in-

dissociable determinant; by its
least
released seedlings. drift, then, through
those teased frequencies. there, where even flight's
in

flight, feed upon the fugue's each
decimated
measure. for blown, the
particles catch, flare. all's there; all's

well, you write. all's at last,
restored, if only the
heart

enter the
fingertips, and the fingertips,
faultlessly, strike upon their each obliterated chord.

--Gustaf Sobin

fr. Columbia Poetry Review #13

http://www.colum.edu/undergraduate/english/poetry/pub/cpr/arch/13/ 
sobin.htm


Hal   		

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Jul  8 12:18:31 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:18:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
Message-ID: <731bb17a0507080918207e844c@mail.gmail.com>

>From the introduction to David Baker's *Heresy and the Ideal: On 
Contemporary Poetry*
 "Poetry is more resilient than one might think. Contemporary poets have 
confronted, even embraced, some of the problems above and turned them into 
the challenge of subject matter and method. The infusion of poetry with 
science and technology has marked the work of A.R. Ammons and Alice Fulton. 
The application of popular culture, with its linguistic and imaginative 
"corruption," provides Albert Goldbarth some of his most brilliant 
inspiration. Philip Levine has made his art by exposing the damage of the 
modern production line, as Adrienne Rich has made hers from a vivid 
indictment of the oppressive practices of power and politics. The Language 
poets, among many others, are busy adapting the form and actual presentation 
of poetry for the computer and the worldwide web. And poets continue to 
sing, lament, think, and praise, as they have for millenia. "
 http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/bakeressay.html
   Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jul  8 13:23:40 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:23:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
References: <731bb17a0507080918207e844c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008a01c583e1$c8f0c630$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Wow, this guy has heard of LANGUAGE POETS.  Ten to one he knows next to nothing about them, but--gosh--I sure won't call him an Enemy of Poetry!  Pretty impressive array of cutting edge poets he names, too.

--SameOldSameOldOldOld Bob
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:18 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry


  From the introduction to David Baker's Heresy and the Ideal:  On Contemporary Poetry

  "Poetry is more resilient than one might think.  Contemporary poets have confronted, even embraced, some of the problems above and turned them into the challenge of subject matter and method.  The infusion of poetry with science and technology has marked the work of A.R. Ammons and Alice Fulton.  The application of popular culture, with its linguistic and imaginative "corruption," provides Albert Goldbarth some of his most brilliant inspiration.  Philip Levine has made his art by exposing the damage of the modern production line, as Adrienne Rich has made hers from a vivid indictment of the oppressive practices of power and politics.  The Language poets, among many others, are busy adapting the form and actual presentation of poetry for the computer and the worldwide web.  And poets continue to sing, lament, think, and praise, as they have for millenia. " 

  http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/bakeressay.html



  Jeff Newberry

  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul  8 13:41:40 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 19:41:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
References: <731bb17a0507080918207e844c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401c583e4$4cf1bbe0$38e03652@ANNY>

Thank you Jeff,

and if you wish David Baker was very kind to send some of his poems for the Corner some time ago:
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=148

And I also agree with his attention to the single poem:

I recall the exasperated words of one of my critic-heroes, Randall Jarrell: "Personally, I believe that it would be profitable for critics to show less concern with poets, periods, society (big-scale extensive criticism) and more concern with the poems themselves (intensive criticism)."  

  From: Jeff Newberry 

  Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:18 PM



  From the introduction to David Baker's Heresy and the Ideal:  On Contemporary Poetry

  "Poetry is more resilient than one might think.  Contemporary poets have confronted, even embraced, some of the problems above and turned them into the challenge of subject matter and method.  The infusion of poetry with science and technology has marked the work of A.R. Ammons and Alice Fulton.  The application of popular culture, with its linguistic and imaginative "corruption," provides Albert Goldbarth some of his most brilliant inspiration.  Philip Levine has made his art by exposing the damage of the modern production line, as Adrienne Rich has made hers from a vivid indictment of the oppressive practices of power and politics.  The Language poets, among many others, are busy adapting the form and actual presentation of poetry for the computer and the worldwide web.  And poets continue to sing, lament, think, and praise, as they have for millenia. " 

  http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/bakeressay.html



  Jeff Newberry

  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/

   


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From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Jul  8 13:57:25 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:57:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
In-Reply-To: <008a01c583e1$c8f0c630$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42CE8645.30465.130BF03@localhost>

David Baker writes:
"Certainly poems don't exist by themselves, but rather within the 
complex matrices of culture, and readerly attention, and social pressure, 
and yes, politics.  But poems do exist as poems and not as 
advertisements, or sermons, or planks in a candidate's platform."

But he's wrong. Poems have been reinterpreted by people like 
Grumman precisely to be advertisements or sermons or planks in their 
platforms. That's part of why Grumman's work is merely prose, as is so 
much of what is claimed to be poetry today. Why prose writers want to 
be known as poets is a matter of advertising, of PR, or product 
placement: poetry even today has a cachet prose doesn't have, since in 
daily live we all, with M Jourdain, speak in prose. 

Marcus



On 8 Jul 2005 at 13:23, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Wow, this guy has heard of LANGUAGE POETS.  Ten to one he knows next to nothing about them, but--gosh--I sure won't call him an Enemy of Poetry!  Pretty impressive array of cutting edge poets he names, too.
> 
> --SameOldSameOldOldOld Bob
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Jeff Newberry 
>   To: NewPoetry 
>   Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:18 PM
>   Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
> 
> 
>   From the introduction to David Baker's Heresy and the Ideal:  On Contemporary Poetry
> 
>   "Poetry is more resilient than one might think.  Contemporary poets have confronted, even embraced, some of the problems above and turned them into the challenge of subject matter and method.  The infusion of poetry with science and technology has marked the work of A.R. Ammons and Alice Fulton.  The application of popular culture, with its linguistic and imaginative "corruption," provides Albert Goldbarth some of his most brilliant inspiration.  Philip Levine has made his art by exposing the damage of the 
modern production line, as Adrienne Rich has made hers from a vivid indictment of the oppressive practices of power and politics.  The Language poets, among many others, are busy adapting the form and actual presentation of poetry for the computer and the worldwide web.  And poets continue to sing, lament, think, and praise, as they have for millenia. " 
> 
>   http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/bakeressay.html
> 
> 
> 
>   Jeff Newberry
> 
>   -- 
>   "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>                                                      --Miguel de Unamuno
> 
>   Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> 
>    
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  8 14:11:18 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:11:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
In-Reply-To: <42CE8645.30465.130BF03@localhost>
References: <42CE8645.30465.130BF03@localhost>
Message-ID: <95b03ee3cfc9e8b35aa2ef6fe934d8ca@earthlink.net>

Phew, anybody catch a whiff of dead horse in here?

Hal

Today's Special

Theory of Harmony
http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf


On Jul 8, 2005, at 1:57 PM, Marcus Bales wrote:

> David Baker writes:
> "Certainly poems don't exist by themselves, but rather within the
> complex matrices of culture, and readerly attention, and social  
> pressure,
> and yes, politics.  But poems do exist as poems and not as
> advertisements, or sermons, or planks in a candidate's platform."
>
> But he's wrong. Poems have been reinterpreted by people like
> Grumman precisely to be advertisements or sermons or planks in their
> platforms. That's part of why Grumman's work is merely prose, as is so
> much of what is claimed to be poetry today. Why prose writers want to
> be known as poets is a matter of advertising, of PR, or product
> placement: poetry even today has a cachet prose doesn't have, since in
> daily live we all, with M Jourdain, speak in prose.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> On 8 Jul 2005 at 13:23, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>> Wow, this guy has heard of LANGUAGE POETS.  Ten to one he knows next  
>> to nothing about them, but--gosh--I sure won't call him an Enemy of  
>> Poetry!  Pretty impressive array of cutting edge poets he names, too.
>>
>> --SameOldSameOldOldOld Bob
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Jeff Newberry
>>   To: NewPoetry
>>   Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:18 PM
>>   Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
>>
>>
>>   From the introduction to David Baker's Heresy and the Ideal:  On  
>> Contemporary Poetry
>>
>>   "Poetry is more resilient than one might think.  Contemporary poets  
>> have confronted, even embraced, some of the problems above and turned  
>> them into the challenge of subject matter and method.  The infusion  
>> of poetry with science and technology has marked the work of A.R.  
>> Ammons and Alice Fulton.  The application of popular culture, with  
>> its linguistic and imaginative "corruption," provides Albert  
>> Goldbarth some of his most brilliant inspiration.  Philip Levine has  
>> made his art by exposing the damage of the
> modern production line, as Adrienne Rich has made hers from a vivid  
> indictment of the oppressive practices of power and politics.  The  
> Language poets, among many others, are busy adapting the form and  
> actual presentation of poetry for the computer and the worldwide web.   
> And poets continue to sing, lament, think, and praise, as they have  
> for millenia. "
>>
>>   http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/bakeressay.html
>>
>>
>>
>>   Jeff Newberry
>>
>>   --
>>   "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>>                                                      --Miguel de  
>> Unamuno
>>
>>   Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> --------
>>
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   New-Poetry mailing list
>>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Jul  8 14:24:54 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:24:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
References: <42CE8645.30465.130BF03@localhost>
	<95b03ee3cfc9e8b35aa2ef6fe934d8ca@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c583ea$56eaedf0$480a9942@Helen>

Isn't matrices spelled mattresses?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry


> Phew, anybody catch a whiff of dead horse in here?
>
> Hal
>
> Today's Special
>
> Theory of Harmony
> http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf
>
>
> On Jul 8, 2005, at 1:57 PM, Marcus Bales wrote:
>
>> David Baker writes:
>> "Certainly poems don't exist by themselves, but rather within the
>> complex matrices of culture, and readerly attention, and social 
>> pressure,
>> and yes, politics.  But poems do exist as poems and not as
>> advertisements, or sermons, or planks in a candidate's platform."
>>
>> But he's wrong. Poems have been reinterpreted by people like
>> Grumman precisely to be advertisements or sermons or planks in their
>> platforms. That's part of why Grumman's work is merely prose, as is so
>> much of what is claimed to be poetry today. Why prose writers want to
>> be known as poets is a matter of advertising, of PR, or product
>> placement: poetry even today has a cachet prose doesn't have, since in
>> daily live we all, with M Jourdain, speak in prose.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8 Jul 2005 at 13:23, Bob Grumman wrote:
>>
>>> Wow, this guy has heard of LANGUAGE POETS.  Ten to one he knows next  to 
>>> nothing about them, but--gosh--I sure won't call him an Enemy of 
>>> Poetry!  Pretty impressive array of cutting edge poets he names, too.
>>>
>>> --SameOldSameOldOldOld Bob
>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>   From: Jeff Newberry
>>>   To: NewPoetry
>>>   Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:18 PM
>>>   Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
>>>
>>>
>>>   From the introduction to David Baker's Heresy and the Ideal:  On 
>>> Contemporary Poetry
>>>
>>>   "Poetry is more resilient than one might think.  Contemporary poets 
>>> have confronted, even embraced, some of the problems above and turned 
>>> them into the challenge of subject matter and method.  The infusion  of 
>>> poetry with science and technology has marked the work of A.R.  Ammons 
>>> and Alice Fulton.  The application of popular culture, with  its 
>>> linguistic and imaginative "corruption," provides Albert  Goldbarth some 
>>> of his most brilliant inspiration.  Philip Levine has  made his art by 
>>> exposing the damage of the
>> modern production line, as Adrienne Rich has made hers from a vivid 
>> indictment of the oppressive practices of power and politics.  The 
>> Language poets, among many others, are busy adapting the form and  actual 
>> presentation of poetry for the computer and the worldwide web.   And 
>> poets continue to sing, lament, think, and praise, as they have  for 
>> millenia. "
>>>
>>>   http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/bakeressay.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Jeff Newberry
>>>
>>>   --
>>>   "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>>>                                                      --Miguel de 
>>> Unamuno
>>>
>>>   Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>> --------
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   New-Poetry mailing list
>>>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jul  8 14:34:01 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:34:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
Message-ID: <1f9.d49e448.30002119@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/8/2005 2:11:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:
Phew, anybody catch a whiff of dead horse in here?
Hal, that horse is so dead it's a skeleton picked clean by now...
let's not go there, at least not so soon.

But for anyone who is inclined to view poetry from a very broad
perspective, I recommend Bruns' book. Not all of the poetry he
examines is my perfect cup of tea, but he makes a good case
for breaking down almost all boundaries when it comes to
conceptualizing what a poem can or may be. And he does it 
clearly, even-temperedly, without overt anticonventionalist provocations. 
(He's not slipping "School of Quietude" into every other paragraph, for example, 
as one well-known language poet 
is prone to do on his blog.) Also recommended to those who are interested in 
the nexus of poetry and philosophy.

THE MATERIAL OF POETRY: SKETCHES FOR A PHILOSOPHICAL POETICS, Gerald L. 
Bruns, U Georgia, cloth 144 pgs w/ audio CD, $24.95. "With edifying cogency, Bruns 
transforms the ancient war of philosophy on poetry into an aesthetic and 
ethical alliance on behalf of freedom." -- Charles Bernstein. On the CD: McCaffery, 
Cage, Bok, Mac Low   and Tardos, Henri Chopin, Dufr?ne
--
Finnegan
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Jul  8 14:36:30 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:36:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresey and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
Message-ID: <s2ce8178.031@mail.highland.edu>

>The Language poets, among many others, are busy adapting the form and
actual presentation of poetry for the computer and the worldwide web.

What a delightful new definition this is. I get this image of Charles
and Ron and Lyn as busy little elves, cobbling and cutting away,
surrounded by giant, humming machines... Hurry up, Language poets, with
your little pointed red caps, make new forms and presentations! The
Worldwide Web is waiting and there is no time to lose!


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jul  8 14:56:09 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:56:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry of our day jobs
Message-ID: <1d4.3f8a5d3f.30002649@aol.com>

http://abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/default.htm

Situations Vacant - The Poetry of Work
 
11/06/2005
 Listen Real Audio
An anthology of poems from around the world celebrating or bemoaning work and 
working lives. The poems come from France, the USA and Australia, and cover 
everything from consultants intent on downsizing to working in a pizza shop.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jul  8 16:07:22 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:07:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
References: <1f9.d49e448.30002119@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c101c583f8$a7967270$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I plead guilty to contributing one hind leg of the dead horse to this thread, but I must note that another who seems to have been accused of contributing parts of the horse is being maligned: who else has ever defined visual poetry as prose?  It may not be poetry, but . . . prose? 

Don't worry, I'll stay out of the rest of this thread.

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jul  8 16:07:35 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:07:35 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
Message-ID: <fc.16c44b71.30003707@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/8/2005 2:34:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes:
THE MATERIAL OF POETRY: SKETCHES FOR A PHILOSOPHICAL POETICS, Gerald L. 
Bruns, U Georgia, cloth 144 pgs w/ audio CD, $24.95. "With edifying cogency, Bruns 
transforms the ancient war of philosophy on poetry into an aesthetic and 
ethical alliance on behalf of freedom." -- Charles Bernstein. On the CD: McCaffery, 
Cage, Bok, Mac Low   and Tardos, Henri Chopin, Dufr?ne
--
BTW: You can get this book with free shipping from Bridge
Street Books in DC...at least you could a few weeks ago...

(202) 965-5200 
 
AERIALEDGE at aol.com
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Jul  8 16:08:28 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:08:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
In-Reply-To: <1f9.d49e448.30002119@aol.com>
References: <1f9.d49e448.30002119@aol.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a050708130846d3d21@mail.gmail.com>

Jim, 
 Thanks for this. I'll be getting this one, certainly.
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/8/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote: 
> 
>  In a message dated 7/8/2005 2:11:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> halvard at earthlink.net writes:
> 
> Phew, anybody catch a whiff of dead horse in here?
> 
> Hal, that horse is so dead it's a skeleton picked clean by now...
> let's not go there, at least not so soon.
>  But for anyone who is inclined to view poetry from a very broad
> perspective, I recommend Bruns' book. Not all of the poetry he
> examines is my perfect cup of tea, but he makes a good case
> for breaking down almost all boundaries when it comes to
> conceptualizing what a poem can or may be. And he does it 
> clearly, even-temperedly, without overt anticonventionalist provocations. 
> (He's not slipping "School of Quietude" into every other paragraph, for 
> example, as one well-known language poet 
> is prone to do on his blog.) Also recommended to those who are interested 
> in the nexus of poetry and philosophy.
> 
> THE MATERIAL OF POETRY: SKETCHES FOR A PHILOSOPHICAL POETICS, Gerald L. 
> Bruns, U Georgia, cloth 144 pgs w/ audio CD, $24.95. "With edifying cogency, 
> Bruns transforms the ancient war of philosophy on poetry into an aesthetic 
> and ethical alliance on behalf of freedom." -- Charles Bernstein. On the CD: 
> McCaffery, Cage, Bok, Mac Low and Tardos, Henri Chopin, Dufr?ne
> --
> Finnegan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul  8 16:32:07 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:32:07 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
References: <1f9.d49e448.30002119@aol.com>
	<00c101c583f8$a7967270$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00a801c583fc$1c413580$38e03652@ANNY>

I also plead guilty, but since I wrote it in some ten minutes, I might send it over, :-)



The dead horse was galloping On 

lofty mattresses whiffing and whishing

Under the slash of the stress of the street 

Without Rest Cobbled by dwarves to keep the 

Storm Effectively set Stiff the steer of the wheel 

at the mill of Mrs Row's Ridge hissing Went 

the white skeleton in the Wind deft as 

straw damned in dreams of glorious

humming machines masted &

tamed as staddles wrested

from luxurious life teem-

ing in red industrious

pointed felt caps

full of fads

on the

net

**

*



____

______

________

?????????????

____________

???????????????????



______________________

0000000000000000000000000

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 10:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry


  I plead guilty to contributing one hind leg of the dead horse to this thread, but I must note that another who seems to have been accused of contributing parts of the horse is being maligned: who else has ever defined visual poetry as prose?  It may not be poetry, but . . . prose? 

  Don't worry, I'll stay out of the rest of this thread.

  --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From j.peter at saint-andre.com  Fri Jul  8 20:25:17 2005
From: j.peter at saint-andre.com (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:25:17 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
In-Reply-To: <003401c583e4$4cf1bbe0$38e03652@ANNY>
References: <731bb17a0507080918207e844c@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c583e4$4cf1bbe0$38e03652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <54739.4.228.111.154.1120868717.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com>

> I recall the exasperated words of one of my critic-heroes, Randall
> Jarrell: "Personally, I believe that it would be profitable for critics to
> show less concern with poets, periods, society (big-scale extensive
> criticism) and more concern with the poems themselves (intensive
> criticism)."

Hear, hear! Poems, not poets or (egads!) poetry.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
Denver, Colorado, USA
http://www.saint-andre.com/blog/




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  8 21:02:47 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 02:02:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
References: <731bb17a0507080918207e844c@mail.gmail.com><003401c583e4$4cf1bbe0$38e03652@ANNY>
	<54739.4.228.111.154.1120868717.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com>
Message-ID: <000701c58421$eff51250$04042cd9@Robin>

From: "Peter Saint-Andre" <j.peter at saint-andre.com>

> > I recall the exasperated words of one of my critic-heroes, Randall
> > Jarrell: "Personally, I believe that it would be profitable for critics
to
> > show less concern with poets, periods, society (big-scale extensive
> > criticism) and more concern with the poems themselves (intensive
> > criticism)."
>
> Hear, hear! Poems, not poets or (egads!) poetry.
>
> Peter

What about Chidiock Tichborne?

        The Remittance Academic

(Whose prime of life is but a frost of cares, even before he got ripped-off
by Thomas Kyd's Hendacasyllabics.

MORAL:  Don't try to assassinate Lizzy the One.

MORTAL2:  Get an efficient agent.)

... from the realm of Cynarae





From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul  9 00:20:47 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:20:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
In-Reply-To: <000701c58421$eff51250$04042cd9@Robin>
References: <731bb17a0507080918207e844c@mail.gmail.com><003401c583e4$4cf1bbe0$38e03652@ANNY>	<54739.4.228.111.154.1120868717.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com>
	<000701c58421$eff51250$04042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <42CF509F.5000908@ix.netcom.com>

List of Founding Members of The Project For a New American Century: * 
designates member of the current administration. Three dozen PNAC 
members serve in prominent positions in this administration.

*Elliott Abrams---National Security Council: Special Assistant to the 
President and Senior Director for Near East and North African Affairs, 
2002-present    

Gary Bauer    

William J. Bennett    

Jeb Bush

*Dick Cheney---Vice President   

Eliot A. Cohen   

Midge Decter   

*Paula Dobriansky---Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs

Steve Forbes

*Aaron Friedberg--- Deputy National Security Adviser

Francis Fukuyama   

Frank Gaffney   

Fred C. Ikle

Donald Kagan   

*Zalmay Khalilzad---Ambassador to Iraq   

*I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby---Dick Cheney's chief of staff

Norman Podhoretz

Dan Quayle   

*Peter W. Rodman---Assistant Secretary of Defense for
International Security Affairs

Stephen P. Rosen   

*Henry S. Rowen--- Defense Policy Board; Assistant Sec. Of Defense under 
Reagan

*Donald Rumsfeld---Secretary of Defense

Vin Weber

George Weigel   

*Paul Wolfowitz---Deputy Secretary of Defense





>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul  9 00:22:54 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:22:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] article
In-Reply-To: <000701c58421$eff51250$04042cd9@Robin>
References: <731bb17a0507080918207e844c@mail.gmail.com><003401c583e4$4cf1bbe0$38e03652@ANNY>	<54739.4.228.111.154.1120868717.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com>
	<000701c58421$eff51250$04042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <42CF511E.1090805@ix.netcom.com>

Iraqi Insurgency Proves A Life Saver:
Pentagon Study Reveals Many Thousands More Would Have Died If Iraq 
Forces Had Resisted:
Game Theory Reveals Fewer Iraqis Killed Because Of Insurgents' Strategy:

By JOHN McCARTHY & SIMON NEWELL
Special To The Assassinated Press
7/10/05

Crystal City Marriott, VA---The Pentagon has released a study 
commissioned 8 months a year the invasion of Iraq which estimated that 
the combined U.S. and British Forces were expected to kill between 
750,000 to 1,000,000 Iraqi combatants and civilians during the course of 
the invasion and its aftermath.

Of course, it is now part of military lore and political reality that 
much of the Iraqi fighting force used a feint, going underground to 
re-emerge as a French style resistance force known as "the insurgency." 
Pentagon estimates currently put the number of Iraqi deaths at the hand 
of coalition forces at 129,000, far below a secret U.S. military 
estimate that resulted from the series of studies done before the invasion.

"We gamed the invasion ourselves here at the Pentagon, and we also hired 
two private firms to use different gaming techniques. We then compared 
and contrasted results," said Army Captain Lloyd Bayes. The military's 
estimates of dead Iraqis in the event of a full-scale invasion was 
around 600,000. Systems Research Inc., a private company based in 
Herndon, Virginia came up with a figure nearly 40% higher than that of 
the Army. GenCo. Elements, that devises programs for population and 
crowd control and the spread of infectious diseases among others 
calculated that 798,878 Iraqis would perish at the hands of coalition 
forces.

"The Army felt both contractors figures were too high," added Bayes. 
"One was nearly a million Iraqis dead, one out of 25 of all Iraqis. The 
other was nearly 800,000. We felt both numbers were too high. So we went 
with our stuff which unfortunately is still classified."

Of course, none of the studies were based on contingencies such as 
Iraq's use of its stores of WMD. "If the Iraqis had indeed had WMD and 
had used it, yes, I think we would have had to kill a lot more Iraqis 
than we estimated without the WMD," Bayes said. "But the military gamers 
never thought there was any WMD. So we didn't factor it in."

When pressed why military game theorists were certain that Iraq 
possessed no WMD, Bayes simply repeated that that information is "still 
classified" under DIA.

How many Iraqis does Bayes think would have died if they used WMD and 
other weapons they were purported to have?

"We never gamed that because we knew it not to be the case. But maybe 2 
million tops. No more. But certainly approaching that figure."

*Along Comes The Iraqi Insurgent Strategy*

But the Iraqis did not stand and fight.

"We did not anticipate the Iraqi strategy of hunkering down and striking 
back with small arms and roadside bombs. So we didn't game for it," said 
Systems Research software designer Walter Pitts. "But we now know that 
the initial invasion killed far fewer Iraqis than we had anticipated. 
Strategically this is not a good thing because all of our data indicates 
that the killing of at least 500,000 Iraqis would have not have allowed 
remaining forces to reach a threshold for to form an effective 
insurgency. If we had killed a million, perhaps two million right off? 
Well, in hindsight that may have been the most desirable from a game 
theorist perspective."

"Currently, we don't really get game solutions that indicate that the 
insurgency can be defeated, not even if we assume for purposes of the 
game that the entire insurgency is made up of Sunnis or even Iraqis in 
general," lamented Senior Vice-President for Government Resources, Hank 
Moravec. "The military keeps coming up with new variables with which to 
tweak the data, but from a game perspective the problem currently is not 
soluble with the current approach. And when you consider that the 
insurgency now has a large foreign component---well, we don't even see 
any need to run that except as a way of wasting tax payers' money," he 
added candidly.

*Ran Away To Fight Another Day*

"There's no point in publishing what the administration and the military 
don't want to hear," says Mike Gelertner with an edge of bitterness. 
"I've been with Systems Research for 15 years and we've done some 
garbage in garbage out projects for Uncle Sam. But we really missed the 
boat on this one. We thought they'd stand up against us and we'd bomb 
them and mow them down. But they ran away to fight another day. Padding 
the numbers by killing women and children didn't help. Its the guys with 
training and expertise that matter. A relative few, a number of whom 
trained right here in our facilities before the current administration 
full of neo-cons from the Project for a New American Century who had 
written about the economic and strategic advantages of taking over Iraq 
for years."

"In fact, while Sunni officers were here studying game theory," 
Gelertner added, "we were also gaming various invasion strategies for 
Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, all founding members of 
the PNAC. They thought our results were junk, useless and refused to 
pay. I assume the Iraqis never knew that we were gaming an attack on 
them. Be that as it may they couldn't have chosen a better method to 
thwart us."

"We didn't take a look at oil production in a post-invasion of Iraq for 
the PNAC," chuckled Jack Neumann of GenCo. Elements. "That's a trick 
question. So I'll give you a trick answer. We did a joint study for a 
public relations firm that works closely with Steve Forbes who, of 
course, is a founding member of the PNAC. We were told the oil study was 
for the Venezuelan State oil company, but that sounded suspicious. Why 
would Venezuela require a study on the feasibility of removing oil from 
Iraq after a major invasion? So at first, we demurred. But then we got a 
call from Dick Cheney personally asking us to run the equations, to game 
it. Cheney said there'd be a lot more business down the road and I have 
an obligation to my employees and stockholders. The board agreed. The 
game looked good for oil. It looked good for the invasion in general 
with, like you say, Iraqi total casualties about a million killed and 4 
million wounded. You know, taking down about 20% of the total population 
occupying major cities, oil and natural gas fields and the water supply."



>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul  9 00:27:31 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:27:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] article corrected version
In-Reply-To: <000701c58421$eff51250$04042cd9@Robin>
References: <731bb17a0507080918207e844c@mail.gmail.com><003401c583e4$4cf1bbe0$38e03652@ANNY>	<54739.4.228.111.154.1120868717.squirrel@webmail.saint-andre.com>
	<000701c58421$eff51250$04042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <42CF5233.5060201@ix.netcom.com>

Iraqi Insurgency Proves A Life Saver:
Pentagon Study Reveals Many Thousands More Would Have Died If Iraq 
Forces Had Resisted:
Game Theory Reveals Fewer Iraqis Killed Because Of Insurgents' Strategy:

By JOHN McCARTHY & SIMON NEWELL
Special To The Assassinated Press
7/10/05

Crystal City Marriott, VA---The Pentagon has released a study 
commissioned a year before the invasion of Iraq which estimated that the 
combined U.S. and British Forces were expected to kill between 750,000 
to 1,000,000 Iraqi combatants and civilians during the course of the 
invasion and its aftermath.

Of course, it is now part of military lore and political reality that 
much of the Iraqi fighting force used a feint, going underground to 
re-emerge as a French style resistance force known as "the insurgency." 
Pentagon estimates currently put the number of Iraqi deaths at the hand 
of coalition forces at 129,000, far below a secret U.S. military 
estimate that resulted from the series of studies done before the invasion.

"We gamed the invasion ourselves here at the Pentagon, and we also hired 
two private firms to use different gaming techniques. We then compared 
and contrasted results," said Army Captain Lloyd Bayes. The military's 
estimates of dead Iraqis in the event of a full-scale invasion was 
around 600,000. Systems Research Inc., a private company based in 
Herndon, Virginia came up with a figure nearly 40% higher than that of 
the Army. GenCo. Elements, that devises programs for population and 
crowd control and the spread of infectious diseases among others 
calculated that 798,878 Iraqis would perish at the hands of coalition 
forces.

"The Army felt both contractors figures were too high," added Bayes. 
"One was nearly a million Iraqis dead, one out of 25 of all Iraqis. The 
other was nearly 800,000. We felt both numbers were too high. So we went 
with our stuff which unfortunately is still classified."

Of course, none of the studies were based on contingencies such as 
Iraq's use of its stores of WMD. "If the Iraqis had indeed had WMD and 
had used it, yes, I think we would have had to kill a lot more Iraqis 
than we estimated without the WMD," Bayes said. "But the military gamers 
never thought there was any WMD. So we didn't factor it in."

When pressed why military game theorists were certain that Iraq 
possessed no WMD, Bayes simply repeated that that information is "still 
classified" under DIA.

How many Iraqis does Bayes think would have died if they used WMD and 
other weapons they were purported to have?

"We never gamed that because we knew it not to be the case. But maybe 2 
million tops. No more. But certainly approaching that figure."

*Along Comes The Iraqi Insurgent Strategy*

But the Iraqis did not stand and fight.

"We did not anticipate the Iraqi strategy of hunkering down and striking 
back with small arms and roadside bombs. So we didn't game for it," said 
Systems Research software designer Walter Pitts. "But we now know that 
the initial invasion killed far fewer Iraqis than we had anticipated. 
Strategically this is not a good thing because all of our data indicates 
that the killing of at least 500,000 Iraqis would have not have allowed 
remaining forces to reach a threshold for to form an effective 
insurgency. If we had killed a million, perhaps two million right off? 
Well, in hindsight that may have been the most desirable from a game 
theorist perspective."

"Currently, we don't really get game solutions that indicate that the 
insurgency can be defeated, not even if we assume for purposes of the 
game that the entire insurgency is made up of Sunnis or even Iraqis in 
general," lamented Senior Vice-President for Government Resources, Hank 
Moravec. "The military keeps coming up with new variables with which to 
tweak the data, but from a game perspective the problem currently is not 
soluble with the current approach. And when you consider that the 
insurgency now has a large foreign component---well, we don't even see 
any need to run that except as a way of wasting tax payers' money," he 
added candidly.

*Ran Away To Fight Another Day*

"There's no point in publishing what the administration and the military 
don't want to hear," says Mike Gelertner with an edge of bitterness. 
"I've been with Systems Research for 15 years and we've done some 
garbage in garbage out projects for Uncle Sam. But we really missed the 
boat on this one. We thought they'd stand up against us and we'd bomb 
them and mow them down. But they ran away to fight another day. Padding 
the numbers by killing women and children didn't help. Its the guys with 
training and expertise that matter. A relative few, a number of whom 
trained right here in our facilities before the current administration 
full of neo-cons from the Project for a New American Century who had 
written about the economic and strategic advantages of taking over Iraq 
for years."

"In fact, while Sunni officers were here studying game theory," 
Gelertner added, "we were also gaming various invasion strategies for 
Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, all founding members of 
the PNAC. They thought our results were junk, useless and refused to 
pay. I assume the Iraqis never knew that we were gaming an attack on 
them. Be that as it may they couldn't have chosen a better method to 
thwart us."

"We didn't take a look at oil production in a post-invasion of Iraq for 
the PNAC," chuckled Jack Neumann of GenCo. Elements. "That's a trick 
question. So I'll give you a trick answer. We did a joint study for a 
public relations firm that works closely with Steve Forbes who, of 
course, is a founding member of the PNAC. We were told the oil study was 
for the Venezuelan State oil company, but that sounded suspicious. Why 
would Venezuela require a study on the feasibility of removing oil from 
Iraq after a major invasion? So at first, we demurred. But then we got a 
call from Dick Cheney personally asking us to run the equations, to game 
it. Cheney said there'd be a lot more business down the road and I have 
an obligation to my employees and stockholders. The board agreed. The 
game looked good for oil. It looked good for the invasion in general 
with, like you say, Iraqi total casualties about a million killed and 4 
million wounded. You know, taking down about 20% of the total population 
occupying major cities, oil and natural gas fields and the water supply."



>  
>


From clitophon at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  9 05:58:15 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 02:58:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: London
In-Reply-To: <42CDED76.1080902@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <20050709095815.13589.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>

clearly, everything is justifiable, even getting out
of bed this early to come to the library...PM

--- Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> <A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little
> minds, adored by 
> little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
> --Ralph Waldo Emerson>
> 
> A perfect description of the quality of mind driving
> the G-8 talks. Our 
> gratitude to Jeff---who is about as much in sympathy
> with Emerson as 
> Anny is with Nietzsche. FIZZ
> 
> 
> Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 
> > A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little
> minds, adored by 
> > little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
> > --Ralph Waldo Emerson
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > Jeff Newberry
> >
> >  
> > On 7/7/05, *Alphaville* <alphavil at ix.netcom.com 
> > <mailto:alphavil at ix.netcom.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     No. I think Anny had simply forgotten to
> communicate the list of
> >     numbers
> >     where relatives of the victims of the recent
> Qaim bombings could get
> >     information about their dead amd maimed
> relatives. I'm certain Anny
> >     appreciates my correcting the oversight. FIZZ
> >
> >     Kent Johnson wrote:
> >
> >     >Say, Carlo, thanks for reminding us with such
> clever
> >     righteousness (in
> >     >your response to Anny's post) that the
> imperialist conquest of
> >     Iraq is a
> >     >BAD THING. You are our voice of conscience.
> Without you, our moral
> >     >compass would be spinning like a dervish.
> >     >
> >     >But, like, are we to understand, then, that
> you think the setting
> >     off
> >     >bombs in crowded subway stations is a
> "justifiable thing"?
> >     >
> >     >Do tell us, Carlos!
> >    
> >_______________________________________________
> >     >New-Poetry mailing list
> >     > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >    
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >    
> _______________________________________________
> >     New-Poetry mailing list
> >     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >    
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing
> but death."
> >                                                   
> --Miguel de Unamuno
> >
> >
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions ? no fees. Bid on great items.  
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jul  9 13:35:21 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 19:35:21 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Body Bags by Gwynn
Message-ID: <005701c584ac$95015120$f2ae3252@ANNY>

On July 5 on the Writer's Almanac a poem by R.S. Gwynn read by Garrison Keillor:
http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/docs/2005/07/04/#tuesday



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  9 18:02:01 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 15:02:01 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
Message-ID: <12692503.1120946521187.JavaMail.root@wamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Doesn't quite read like an "essay" to me, but more like what it actually is: an *excerpt* from an *introduction.*  But, what I found ironic was: 

"We have many more kinds of writing to convey many more kinds of information and experience ? to say nothing of video, film, varieties of music, and other expressions.? But poetry has a smaller corner in the larger market, and poets strain to identify its purpose.? What is the purpose of poetry?? Who is it for?? How does it mean and continue to mean?? These questions should be central to every poet and reader of poetry."

His stance, as I'm picking up from the rest of the excerpt, is that poets and readers should *not* focus on those questions at all, but on the individual poem.  Poets, especially, should be writing (most of them) and not be dithering those questions around their little fingers.

Or maybe Baker is too subtle for me.

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
Sent: Jul 8, 2005 9:18 AM
To: NewPoetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry

>From the introduction to David Baker's *Heresy and the Ideal: On 
Contemporary Poetry*
 "Poetry is more resilient than one might think. Contemporary poets have 
confronted, even embraced, some of the problems above and turned them into 
the challenge of subject matter and method. The infusion of poetry with 
science and technology has marked the work of A.R. Ammons and Alice Fulton. 
The application of popular culture, with its linguistic and imaginative 
"corruption," provides Albert Goldbarth some of his most brilliant 
inspiration. Philip Levine has made his art by exposing the damage of the 
modern production line, as Adrienne Rich has made hers from a vivid 
indictment of the oppressive practices of power and politics. The Language 
poets, among many others, are busy adapting the form and actual presentation 
of poetry for the computer and the worldwide web. And poets continue to 
sing, lament, think, and praise, as they have for millenia. "
 http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/bakeressay.html
   Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/



From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Jul  9 20:12:55 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:12:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NEW AND ON VIEW: MUDLARK POSTER NO. 57 (2005)
Message-ID: <c4.2b043ff8.3001c207@aol.com>

Date:? ? Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:49:46 -0400
From:? ? William Slaughter <wrs at UNF.EDU>
Subject: Notice: Mudlark

NEW AND ON VIEW: MUDLARK POSTER NO. 57 (2005)

ANNE COLWELL

Unlearning the Stars | Meditations: Divine and Mortal | Hope | Margarita

Anne Colwell's work has appeared in Midwest Quarterly Review, The Alsop
Review, Southern Poetry Review, Dominion Review, Atlanta Review,
California Quarterly, Octavo and Eclectic Literary Forum.? Eve Shelnutt's
anthology, THE WRITER'S ROOM, has a chapter on her poems in it entitled
"Discovering the Voices of Biblical Women." Her manuscript, BELIEVING
THEIR SHADOWS, was a finalist for the Brittingham Prize at the University
of Wisconsin, the Anhinga Prize, the New Issues Poetry Prize, and the
Quarterly Review of Literature (QRL) Poetry Series. Her book INSCRUTABLE
HOUSES:? METAPHORS OF THE BODY IN THE POEMS OF ELIZABETH BISHOP was
published by the University of Alabama Press.

Spread the word. Far and wide,

William Slaughter

MUDLARK
An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics
Never in and never out of print...
E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu
URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Jul  9 20:31:27 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:31:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwen Harwood
Message-ID: <19f.3761b405.3001c65f@aol.com>

http://abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/default.htm

Gwen Harwood
09/07/2005
 Listen Real Audio
Gwen Harwood has long been recognised as one of Australia's finest poets and 
librettist. She was born in Taringa, Queensland in 1920, raised and educated 
in Brisbane where she developed strong interests in literature and philosophy 
as well as music, later becoming organist at All Saints' Church in Brisbane. 
Her marriage to academic linguist William Harwood in 1945 brought a reluctant 
move to Tasmania and it was here that she discovered her lifelong passion for 
the work of philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, which informs her entire opus.
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From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jul  9 21:48:59 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:48:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
References: <12692503.1120946521187.JavaMail.root@wamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000601c584f1$8d580d70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Poets should be writing most of the individual poems?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: "Jeff Newberry" <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>; "NewPoetry: 
ContemporaryPoetry News & Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry


Doesn't quite read like an "essay" to me, but more like what it actually is: 
an *excerpt* from an *introduction.*  But, what I found ironic was:

"We have many more kinds of writing to convey many more kinds of information 
and experience - to say nothing of video, film, varieties of music, and 
other expressions. But poetry has a smaller corner in the larger market, and 
poets strain to identify its purpose. What is the purpose of poetry? Who is 
it for? How does it mean and continue to mean? These questions should be 
central to every poet and reader of poetry."

His stance, as I'm picking up from the rest of the excerpt, is that poets 
and readers should *not* focus on those questions at all, but on the 
individual poem.  Poets, especially, should be writing (most of them) and 
not be dithering those questions around their little fingers.

Or maybe Baker is too subtle for me.

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
Sent: Jul 8, 2005 9:18 AM
To: NewPoetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry

>From the introduction to David Baker's *Heresy and the Ideal: On
Contemporary Poetry*
 "Poetry is more resilient than one might think. Contemporary poets have
confronted, even embraced, some of the problems above and turned them into
the challenge of subject matter and method. The infusion of poetry with
science and technology has marked the work of A.R. Ammons and Alice Fulton.
The application of popular culture, with its linguistic and imaginative
"corruption," provides Albert Goldbarth some of his most brilliant
inspiration. Philip Levine has made his art by exposing the damage of the
modern production line, as Adrienne Rich has made hers from a vivid
indictment of the oppressive practices of power and politics. The Language
poets, among many others, are busy adapting the form and actual presentation
of poetry for the computer and the worldwide web. And poets continue to
sing, lament, think, and praise, as they have for millenia. "
 http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/bakeressay.html
   Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From ATambellini01 at aol.com  Sat Jul  9 23:54:45 2005
From: ATambellini01 at aol.com (ATambellini01 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:54:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heresy and the Ideal: On Contemporary Poetry
Message-ID: <29.76cae687.3001f605@aol.com>

I have a poem which I wrote as a Manifesto 
 
 
1994 
STRIP  THE POEM 
to the bare essentials 
throw it into the garbage 
flush it into the toilet 
then go find it in the sewers 
as a piece of life rejected 
unwanted as a new born cry 
that sits on excrement 
eaten by swarming flies  
MAKE  THE POEM 
the forgotten 
the throw away society 
the unnecessary surplus 
the exploited no longer of use 
MAKE  THE POEM  
those who appear 
dying split second on the screen 
before  you flip the dial 
before  the stench of death reaches the nostrils 
before  you might discover what life for some 
for  too many is all about 
MAKE  THE POEM 
before  sinking the teeth 
in  that blood stained hamburger 
that  could be ground meat from 
starving  corpses 
before  you can say this is the taste of death 
&  spit it out 
MAKE  THE POEM 
cruel  as the messages from well fed politicians 
MAKE  THE POEM 
tearing  limbs to shreds 
in  the name of democracy 
to  protect ruling delinquent interests 
to  increase wealth of the few 
to  increase stupidity of others 
who  wrap yellow ribbons on trees 
glorifying  fighting heroes on TV news 
conquering  dismembered women & children 
MAKE  THE POEM 
mercilessly  brutal 
as  the dictators we prop on fake stages 
ordering  executions of innocent people 
as  firing squads hunt freedom guerrillas 
as  raining bombs drop over 
defenseless  populations 
MAKE  THE POEM 
your assassinated forgotten lover 
MAKE  THE POEM  
the junkies? perforated bodies 
MAKE  THE POEM 
AIDS? skeleton?s remains 
MAKE  THE POEM 
without sentimentality 
as you turn a calendar page 
to a new day that never will come 
MAKE  THE POEM 
without saying I, I, I, in every line 
as if you were the only one that mattered 
in this shrunken planet 
MAKE  THE POEM 
looking at earth from a star 
as the famished nursing bitch  
howls back at  the moon 
MAKE  THE POEM 
discord in bitter notes 
puncturing deaf eardrums with pain 
MAKE THE POEM 
cut decisively 
the way the butcher slices meat 
razor sharp with sound of falling flesh 
MAKE  THE POEM 
ripe with bile 
for the skin you hate then swallow its venom 
MAKE  THE POEM 
on the airwaves viciously racist 
mixed with intellectual educated innuendos 
then contemplate that one day a bullet 
might split your skull wide open in retaliation 
MAKE  THE POEM  
when you take a shit reading the daily paper 
MAKE  THE POEM 
suffering without pity 
in the continuous living hell with no  ending 
then again you could make the poem 
that says spring is like a perhaps 
& if you wish upon a star 
it makes no difference who you are 
if you are rich & have power & control 
in the destiny of 
?Oh say can you see" 
America 
it?s a war poem 
to the wretched of this land 
to the poor  
to the  defenseless  
to the  oppressed 
your poem is a contract  
on the life of  the  people 
AMERICA 
MAKE THE POEM 
& FUCK IT
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Jul 10 12:58:45 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:58:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Being-here-no-more
Message-ID: <BEF6CC05.EAA%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Grayheaded Schoolchildren


Old men have bad dreams,
So they sleep little.
They walk on bare feet
Without turning on the lights,
Or they stand leaning
On gloomy furniture
Listening to their hearts beat.

The one window across the room
Is black like a blackboard.
Every old man is alone
In this classroom, squinting
At that fine chalk line
That divides being-here
>From being-here-no-more.

No matter.  It was a glass of water
They were going to get,
But not just yet.
They listen for mice in the walls,
A car passing on the street,
Their dead fathers shuffling past them
On their way to the kitchen.

--Charles Simic.  *The Voice at 3:00 A.M:  Selected Late and New Poems*.






====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Jul 10 13:01:52 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:01:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Being-here-no-more
Message-ID: <BEF6CCC0.EAD%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Grayheaded Schoolchildren


Old men have bad dreams,
So they sleep little.
They walk on bare feet
Without turning on the lights,
Or they stand leaning
On gloomy furniture
Listening to their hearts beat.

The one window across the room
Is black like a blackboard.
Every old man is alone
In this classroom, squinting
At that fine chalk line
That divides being-here
>From being-here-no-more.

No matter.  It was a glass of water
They were going to get,
But not just yet.
They listen for mice in the walls,
A car passing on the street,
Their dead fathers shuffling past them
On their way to the kitchen.



--Charles Simic.  *The Voice at 3:00 A.M:  Selected Late and New Poems*.






====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul 10 13:15:35 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:15:35 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwen Harwood
References: <19f.3761b405.3001c65f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01b401c58572$fc868f10$51a93452@ANNY>

Thank you James, 

very moving poems, and I especially liked the reading of the actress, Susy Frazer, a warm intense and clear voice.

Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:31 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwen Harwood


  http://abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/default.htm

  Gwen Harwood
  09/07/2005
  Listen Real Audio
  Gwen Harwood has long been recognised as one of Australia's finest poets and librettist. She was born in Taringa, Queensland in 1920, raised and educated in Brisbane where she developed strong interests in literature and philosophy as well as music, later becoming organist at All Saints' Church in Brisbane. Her marriage to academic linguist William Harwood in 1945 brought a reluctant move to Tasmania and it was here that she discovered her lifelong passion for the work of philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, which informs her entire opus.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From ATambellini01 at aol.com  Sun Jul 10 13:54:59 2005
From: ATambellini01 at aol.com (ATambellini01 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:54:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Being-here-no-more
Message-ID: <1fb.c3d0f46.3002baf3@aol.com>

here is one I wrote about old people (which is a topic I am most interested  
in) in a nursing home:
 
 
 
September  19, 1999 
4:35  P.M. 
you see them on sunday 
parked over the nursinghome porch 
the old sunk deep in wheelchairs 
a styrofoam cup filled with diet coke in one  hand 
you see them in stop motion 
under a day wasted sky 
eyes fixed on street traffic motion 
you see wrinkled skin shadows 
left alone to dry 
shrinking under the late summer light 
sometimes with the wind 
a laud bouncing rap sound 
passes & fades from a car radio 
you see the old ones everyday 
under late summer sun 
staring cars passing by 
fragile bone shrinking 
left alone to dry 
cars rushing by
 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jul 10 18:28:37 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:28:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marsalis the poet
Message-ID: <210.46d18d0.3002fb15@aol.com>


http://www.qctimes.net/articles/2005/07/10/features/arts_leisure/doc42d09854ce5a5285121831.txt

This Marsalis makes harmony in print
By The Associated Press    

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - He's t.p. Luce, reading poetry at clubs in Baltimore and 
Washington, and he's also Ellis Marsalis III - a Marsalis brother who decided 
early that music wasn't his gig.
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jul 10 22:22:04 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:22:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marsalis the poet
References: <210.46d18d0.3002fb15@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004e01c585bf$57e83290$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

No poems in the article.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 6:28 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Marsalis the poet


  http://www.qctimes.net/articles/2005/07/10/features/arts_leisure/doc42d09854ce5a5285121831.txt

  This Marsalis makes harmony in print
  By The Associated Press    

  NEW ORLEANS (AP) - He's t.p. Luce, reading poetry at clubs in Baltimore and Washington, and he's also Ellis Marsalis III - a Marsalis brother who decided early that music wasn't his gig.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Jul 11 11:22:02 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:22:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The cat is coming
Message-ID: <BEF806DA.EC6%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Nearest Nameless

So damn familiar
Most of the time,
I don't even know you are here.
My life,
My portion of eternity,

A little shiver,
As if the chill of the grave
Is already
Catching up with me--
No matter.

Descartes smelled
Witches burning
While he sat thinking
Of a truth so obvious
We keep failing to see it.

I never knew it either
Till today.
When I heard a bird shriek:
*The cat is coming*,
And I felt myself trembling.


--Charles Simic.  *The Voice at 3:00 A.M:  Selected Late and New Poems*.




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jul 11 11:23:12 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:23:12 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
Message-ID: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com>

http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/83247.php
 
New poetry column features short, easy-to-understand works 
 
Ted Kooser, the Poet Laureate of the United States, has launched a column 
called American Life in Poetry to provide short poems to newspapers and e-mail 
subscribers every week free of charge. About 90 newspapers, with a combined 
circulation of 8.6 million, were carrying the column at last count.  
  
By Doug Kreutz 
ARIZONA DAILY STAR 
 
Poetry should be pleasurable - maybe even understandable. 
 
Ted Kooser realizes that's a radical concept, but he says
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Jul 11 05:06:40 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:06:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Body Bags by Gwynn
In-Reply-To: <005701c584ac$95015120$f2ae3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <BEF7A0D0.97D2%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/9/05 12:35 PM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:

> On July 5 on the Writer's Almanac a poem by R.S. Gwynn read by Garrison
> Keillor:
> http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/docs/2005/07/04/#tuesday
>  
>  
>  
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Way to go, Sam. You?re becoming a regular on the show.

Paul
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Jul 11 12:13:01 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:13:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
	Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 14 (out of office)
Message-ID: <s2d2544b.005@mail.highland.edu>

I will be out of the office from Tuesday, July 12 through Monday, July
18th. I will respond to your message upon my return.

Kent


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 11 12:21:17 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:21:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

   

  Poetry should be pleasurable - maybe even understandable. 

   

  Ted Kooser realizes that's a radical concept, 
  HAW HAW.  Yep.  It's jus' too goddam true: ain't hardly a one poet nowadays what don't spen' hours makin' sure nobody can fin' a speck o' sense in what he's writin', an' I know one what shot hisself when somebody not only unnerstood one o' his, but ENJOYED it!  Thank the good Lord we finely got somebody on our side up there in Washyton.

  --Bobba
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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 13:12:09 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:12:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
In-Reply-To: <002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com>
	<002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <33abf2750507111012506b7639@mail.gmail.com>

I guess I'm not the only one who isn't terribly impressed by Kooser's 
choices. They're nice poems--but they're just that, nice. They don't thrill, 
they don't frighten, they don't amaze--honestly, not a one has gotten any 
rise out of me, one way or another. They just don't make me think at all. 

Poetry can be enjoyable and still tough enough to make you think. Actually, 
I thought that was what the enjoyment of poetry was all about. And I really 
think the American public can think a lot more than general media gives them 
credit.

Bob, you really gotta stop this. I'm starting to agree with you way too much 
lately. We've got to find something between us to keep the animosity alive, 
or else where's the magic in our relationship gone?



On 7/11/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> 
>   Poetry should be pleasurable - maybe even understandable. 
> 
> Ted Kooser realizes that's a radical concept, 
> 
> HAW HAW. Yep. It's jus' too goddam true: ain't hardly a one poet nowadays 
> what don't spen' hours makin' sure nobody can fin' a speck o' sense in what 
> he's writin', an' I know one what shot hisself when somebody not only 
> unnerstood one o' his, but ENJOYED it! Thank the good Lord we finely got 
> somebody on our side up there in Washyton. 
> 
> --Bobba
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 14:10:34 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:10:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
In-Reply-To: <002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com>
	<002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <731bb17a050711111017fb8c06@mail.gmail.com>

Typically dismissive, straw-man, and ad hominem.
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/11/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 
> 
>   Poetry should be pleasurable - maybe even understandable. 
> 
> Ted Kooser realizes that's a radical concept, 
> 
> HAW HAW. Yep. It's jus' too goddam true: ain't hardly a one poet nowadays 
> what don't spen' hours makin' sure nobody can fin' a speck o' sense in what 
> he's writin', an' I know one what shot hisself when somebody not only 
> unnerstood one o' his, but ENJOYED it! Thank the good Lord we finely got 
> somebody on our side up there in Washyton. 
> 
> --Bobba
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From tad at opus40.org  Mon Jul 11 14:16:51 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:16:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com><002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<33abf2750507111012506b7639@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c58644$b849ce70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

 
Grasshoppers
This year they are exactly the size
of the pencil stub my grandfather kept
to mark off the days since rain,

and precisely the color of dust, of the roads
leading back across the dying fields
into the '30s. Walking the cracked lane

past the empty barn, the empty silo,
you hear them tinkering with irony,
slapping the grass like drops of rain.

  -- Ted Kooser



OK, I kinda like this poem -- actually, I kinda like it a lot. I like all the allusions in the first two stanzas. They're accessible but still interesting. The grasshoppers exactly the size of something that has no exact size, and would be constantly changing with each day marked, and precisely the color of something that is no one color and only exists in memory. The movement and stasis, change and constancy, connection between past and present in the metaphor of an insect whose arrival is cyclical. And yeah, I think any intelligent newspaper reader could figure all that out, and at the same time it doesn't insult my intelligence (I can't speak for Bob's).

But what about "tinkering with irony"? How is that not obscure? How did Ted's secretary and the folks in the next cubicle absorb that with perfectly clarity? I'm nor sure I get it myself. Or want it, for that matter.









Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Donna Casinghino 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 1:12 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet


  I guess I'm not the only one who isn't terribly impressed by Kooser's choices. They're nice poems--but they're just that, nice.  They don't thrill, they don't frighten, they don't amaze--honestly, not a one has gotten any rise out of me, one way or another.  They just don't make me think at all.  

  Poetry can be enjoyable and still tough enough to make you think.  Actually, I thought that was what the enjoyment of poetry was all about.  And I really think the American public can think a lot more than general media gives them credit.

  Bob, you really gotta stop this. I'm starting to agree with you way too much lately. We've got to find something between us to keep the animosity alive, or else where's the magic in our relationship gone?




  On 7/11/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


      Poetry should be pleasurable - maybe even understandable. 



      Ted Kooser realizes that's a radical concept, 
      HAW HAW.  Yep.  It's jus' too goddam true: ain't hardly a one poet nowadays what don't spen' hours makin' sure nobody can fin' a speck o' sense in what he's writin', an' I know one what shot hisself when somebody not only unnerstood one o' his, but ENJOYED it!  Thank the good Lord we finely got somebody on our side up there in Washyton. 

      --Bobba



    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






  -- 
  -------------------------------------------------
  Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't.  --Macbeth I:v 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul 11 15:39:18 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:39:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00b501c58650$3ad57320$2cdf3652@ANNY>

I like his face, his voice seems tired and sincere. This is ok with me.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 5:23 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet


  http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/83247.php
   

  New poetry column features short, easy-to-understand works 

   

  Ted Kooser, the Poet Laureate of the United States, has launched a column called American Life in Poetry to provide short poems to newspapers and e-mail subscribers every week free of charge. About 90 newspapers, with a combined circulation of 8.6 million, were carrying the column at last count.  

    

  By Doug Kreutz 

  ARIZONA DAILY STAR 

   

  Poetry should be pleasurable - maybe even understandable. 

   

  Ted Kooser realizes that's a radical concept, but he says


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul 11 15:44:37 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:44:37 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] *Janet McCann* & Kooser
Message-ID: <00be01c58650$f8f68ba0$2cdf3652@ANNY>

Welcome to American Life in Poetry. For information on permissions and usage, or to download a PDF version of the column, visit www.americanlifeinpoetry.org.

******************************

American Life in Poetry: Column 015

BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE 

Many of us are collectors, attaching special meaning to the inanimate objects we acquire. Here, Texas poet Janet McCann gives us insight into the significance of one woman's collection. The abundance and variety of detail suggest the clutter of such a life.

The Woman Who Collects Noah's Arks

       Has them in every room of her house, 
wall hangings, statues, paintings, quilts and blankets, 
ark lampshades, mobiles, Christmas tree ornaments, 
t-shirts, sweaters, necklaces, books, 
comics, a creamer, a sugar bowl, candles, napkins, 
tea-towels and tea-tray, nightgown, pillow, lamp. 
       Animals two-by-two in plaster, wood, 
fabric, oil paint, copper, glass, plastic, paper, 
tinfoil, leather, mother-of-pearl, styrofoam, 
clay, steel, rubber, wax, soap. 
       Why I cannot ask, though I would like 
to know, the answer has to be simply 
because. Because at night when she lies 
with her husband in bed, the house rocks out 
into the bay, the one that cuts in here to the flatlands 
at the center of Texas. Because the whole wood structure 
drifts off, out under the stars, beyond the last 
lights, the two of them pitching and rolling 
as it all heads seaward. Because they hear 
trumpets and bellows from the farther rooms. 
Because the sky blackens, but morning finds them always 
safe on the raindrenched land, 
bird on the windowsill. 

Reprinted from PoemMemoirStory by permission of the author. Janet McCann's most recent book is "Emily's Dress" (Pecan Grove Press, 2005). Poem copyright (c) 2003 by Janet McCann. This weekly column is supported by The Poetry Foundation, The Library of Congress, and the Department of English at the University of Nebraska, Lincoln. This column does not accept unsolicited poetry.

******************************

American Life in Poetry provides newspapers and online publications with a free weekly column  featuring contemporary American poems. The sole mission of this project is to promote poetry: American Life in Poetry seeks to create a vigorous presence for poetry in our culture. There are no costs for reprinting the columns; we do require that you register your publication here and that the text of the column be reproduced without alteration.

_____________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul 11 15:49:17 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:49:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Graham
Message-ID: <00cc01c58651$9f853f70$2cdf3652@ANNY>

And from anther list, here is David Graham:

David Graham's essay, "Why Emily Dickinson Would Not Smile for the Camera," is just out
in the online mag Eclectica:
http://www.eclectica.org/v9n3/graham_david.html
About Poetry has posted David's brief essay, "A Student's Memories of Richard
Eberhart."  They also feature two of his poems, "The Writing Life" and "Old
Poet Enduring Praise":
http://poetry.about.com/od/20thcenturypoets/a/grahameberhart.htm?nl=1
http://glclk.about.com/?zi=12/120N
http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/bldgraham.htm
(grahamd at ripon.edu)


____________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 11 16:06:59 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:06:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com><002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a050711111017fb8c06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008e01c58654$18c3b0e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Typically dismissive, straw-man, and ad hominem.

  Jeff Newberry

  Typically undismissive, well-supported, insightful reasoning from our apprentice stasguard.
   
  On 7/11/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 


      Poetry should be pleasurable - 



      Always?  (Frankly, I think a poem should always eventually cause more pleasure than pain, but I respect the views of those who don't agree with that.)



      maybe even understandable. 



      Who doesn't agree with that, Jeff?  At least, everyone who doesn't think anything that takes more than one reading to be 100% clear to be incomprehensible.





      Ted Kooser realizes that's a radical concept, 

      So, Jeff, IS it a radical concept?  Do most poets intentionally make poems that can't be understood?  Do most poets, even language poets, aim for texts they think readers won't enjoy?

      Do you think poets should heed Kooser and do what he apparently wants them to do, which is write poems that can be IMMEDIATELY understood even by those with little or no background in literature?

      Now, maybe I'm judging Kooser, in this case, by a journalist's misleading words, having read only the short excerpt James posted.  Still, why not a statement that there's a place in poetry for plain-spoken, easy-to-understand poems (as I strongly believe there is, by the way) rather than a snipe at poets trying for other kinds of poetry?

      Why, finally, is is proper to attack me for attacking Kooser, but not proper to attack Kooser for attacking certain poets?

      --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 11 16:10:50 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:10:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com><002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<33abf2750507111012506b7639@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00af01c58654$a2f1d620$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I guess I'm not the only one who isn't terribly impressed by Kooser's choices. They're nice poems--but they're just that, nice.  They don't thrill, they don't frighten, they don't amaze--honestly, not a one has gotten any rise out of me, one way or another.  They just don't make me think at all.  

Poetry can be enjoyable and still tough enough to make you think.  Actually, I thought that was what the enjoyment of poetry was all about.  And I really think the American public can think a lot more than general media gives them credit.

Bob, you really gotta stop this. I'm starting to agree with you way too much lately. We've got to find something between us to keep the animosity alive, or else where's the magic in our relationship gone?

What you have to do, Donna, is remember you're really only agreeing with me on one issue.  I have LOTS of others I'm sure you won't agree with me on.  I'll get back to them, too, if Newberry stops pickin' on me. 

--Bob


  On 7/11/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


      Poetry should be pleasurable - maybe even understandable. 



      Ted Kooser realizes that's a radical concept, 
      HAW HAW.  Yep.  It's jus' too goddam true: ain't hardly a one poet nowadays what don't spen' hours makin' sure nobody can fin' a speck o' sense in what he's writin', an' I know one what shot hisself when somebody not only unnerstood one o' his, but ENJOYED it!  Thank the good Lord we finely got somebody on our side up there in Washyton. 

      --Bobba



    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






  -- 
  -------------------------------------------------
  Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't.  --Macbeth I:v 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 11 17:08:53 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:08:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
In-Reply-To: <00af01c58654$a2f1d620$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com><002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<33abf2750507111012506b7639@mail.gmail.com>
	<00af01c58654$a2f1d620$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <2a29d5f6b8db7147f70f3830966f45e8@earthlink.net>

Just hold it one darn minute, Bob. I've got
my violin around here somewhere.

Hal

Today's Special

Theory of Harmony
http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

On Jul 11, 2005, at 4:10 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> What you have to do, Donna, is remember you're really only agreeing 
> with me on one issue.? I have LOTS of others I'm sure you won't agree 
> with me on.? I'll get back to them, too, if Newberry stops pickin' on 
> me.?
> ?
> --Bob



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 11 18:07:51 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:07:51 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
Message-ID: <24850157.1121119671505.JavaMail.root@wamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

"tinkering with irony": "slapping the grass like drops of rain."
Put that in yer newspaper, laddie.

- Jim, individual poet

-----Original Message-----
From: The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org>
Sent: Jul 11, 2005 11:16 AM
To: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>, 
	"NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &
	Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet

 
Grasshoppers
This year they are exactly the size
of the pencil stub my grandfather kept
to mark off the days since rain,

and precisely the color of dust, of the roads
leading back across the dying fields
into the '30s. Walking the cracked lane

past the empty barn, the empty silo,
you hear them tinkering with irony,
slapping the grass like drops of rain.

  -- Ted Kooser



OK, I kinda like this poem -- actually, I kinda like it a lot. I like all the allusions in the first two stanzas. They're accessible but still interesting. The grasshoppers exactly the size of something that has no exact size, and would be constantly changing with each day marked, and precisely the color of something that is no one color and only exists in memory. The movement and stasis, change and constancy, connection between past and present in the metaphor of an insect whose arrival is cyclical. And yeah, I think any intelligent newspaper reader could figure all that out, and at the same time it doesn't insult my intelligence (I can't speak for Bob's).

But what about "tinkering with irony"? How is that not obscure? How did Ted's secretary and the folks in the next cubicle absorb that with perfectly clarity? I'm nor sure I get it myself. Or want it, for that matter.









Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Donna Casinghino 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views 
  Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 1:12 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet


  I guess I'm not the only one who isn't terribly impressed by Kooser's choices. They're nice poems--but they're just that, nice.  They don't thrill, they don't frighten, they don't amaze--honestly, not a one has gotten any rise out of me, one way or another.  They just don't make me think at all.  

  Poetry can be enjoyable and still tough enough to make you think.  Actually, I thought that was what the enjoyment of poetry was all about.  And I really think the American public can think a lot more than general media gives them credit.

  Bob, you really gotta stop this. I'm starting to agree with you way too much lately. We've got to find something between us to keep the animosity alive, or else where's the magic in our relationship gone?




  On 7/11/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


      Poetry should be pleasurable - maybe even understandable. 



      Ted Kooser realizes that's a radical concept, 
      HAW HAW.  Yep.  It's jus' too goddam true: ain't hardly a one poet nowadays what don't spen' hours makin' sure nobody can fin' a speck o' sense in what he's writin', an' I know one what shot hisself when somebody not only unnerstood one o' his, but ENJOYED it!  Thank the good Lord we finely got somebody on our side up there in Washyton. 

      --Bobba



    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






  -- 
  -------------------------------------------------
  Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't.  --Macbeth I:v 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jul 11 18:41:54 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:41:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Graham
Message-ID: <d7.2989feb2.30044fb2@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/11/2005 3:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
Why Emily Dickinson Would Not Smile for the Camera," is just out
http://www.common-place.org/vol-04/no-02/gura/

http://www.unc.edu/~gura/dickinson/index.html

There is possibly another, later photo of ED.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 11 18:58:40 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:58:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <24850157.1121119671505.JavaMail.root@wamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <010701c5866c$15ba7ba0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Grasshoppers
> This year they are exactly the size
> of the pencil stub my grandfather kept
> to mark off the days since rain,
>
> and precisely the color of dust, of the roads
> leading back across the dying fields
> into the '30s. Walking the cracked lane
>
> past the empty barn, the empty silo,
> you hear them tinkering with irony,
> slapping the grass like drops of rain.
>
>  -- Ted Kooser
>
>
>
> OK, I kinda like this poem -- actually, I kinda like it a lot. I like all 
> the allusions in the first two stanzas. They're accessible but still 
> interesting. The grasshoppers exactly the size of something that has no 
> exact size, and would be constantly changing with each day marked, and 
> precisely the color of something that is no one color and only exists in 
> memory. The movement and stasis, change and constancy, connection between 
> past and present in the metaphor of an insect whose arrival is cyclical. 
> And yeah, I think any intelligent newspaper reader could figure all that 
> out, and at the same time it doesn't insult my intelligence (I can't speak 
> for Bob's).
>
> But what about "tinkering with irony"? How is that not obscure? How did 
> Ted's secretary and the folks in the next cubicle absorb that with 
> perfectly clarity? I'm nor sure I get it myself. Or want it, for that 
> matter.

* * *

I like the poem well enough, but it has the flaw I see in too many haiku: 
its too overt subject, in this case Regret over The Flight of Time.  I like 
the image of the roads across fields into the 30's but the other images are 
too pedestrian and too numerously saying death.  I take the grasshoppers to 
seem ironically going on as though it were still the thirties.  It's a 
standard haiku cliche: farm dead, grasshoppers still hoppin'.  Really, I 
don't mind poems like these, just can't take too many of them at once.  And 
I don't feel superior to it, however I sound.  I've made a lot of poems 
people would (correctly) find as much wrong with as I've found with this if 
I were the kind of target a poet laureate is.

--Bob 




From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jul 11 19:32:15 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:32:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
Message-ID: <1c7.2c3b7f79.30045b7f@aol.com>

I don't have an iota of trouble with the Kooser project. I think
it's easy to forget how much we read as 'insiders' when it
comes to the art of poetry. Keeping the poems short makes
perfect sense in context of a local newspaper. The poem
needn't register a 95 out of a 100 on a Flesch readibility test 
but it makes sense to me that poems be reasonably accessible 
as well. (Though it would be nice if he slipped in an almost inscrutable 
but well-tied knot of language now & again, just to make sure 
the regular readers of the column are staying awake.)

It seems to me that some people are saying that if a local newspaper
prints a chess puzzle with a simple caption like "Find Mate in 2.
Solution below." It somehow prevents another segment of the 
population, who really does know the game & its theories inside & out, 
from wanting to read/experience move by move Grandmaster play like Kasparov 
vs. Anand at the FIDE International Tournament in Berlin 2004. (I'm going home 
to watch a chess documentary tonight called
Game Over. Come on over, popcorn's on me...
http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70020940&trkid=181026
Finnegan



In a message dated 7/11/2005 6:59:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Grasshoppers
> This year they are exactly the size
> of the pencil stub my grandfather kept
> to mark off the days since rain,
>
> and precisely the color of dust, of the roads
> leading back across the dying fields
> into the '30s. Walking the cracked lane
>
> past the empty barn, the empty silo,
> you hear them tinkering with irony,
> slapping the grass like drops of rain.
>
>  -- Ted Kooser
>
>
>
> OK, I kinda like this poem -- actually, I kinda like it a lot. I like all 
> the allusions in the first two stanzas. They're accessible but still 
> interesting. The grasshoppers exactly the size of something that has no 
> exact size, and would be constantly changing with each day marked, and 
> precisely the color of something that is no one color and only exists in 
> memory. The movement and stasis, change and constancy, connection between 
> past and present in the metaphor of an insect whose arrival is cyclical. 
> And yeah, I think any intelligent newspaper reader could figure all that 
> out, and at the same time it doesn't insult my intelligence (I can't speak 
> for Bob's).
>
> But what about "tinkering with irony"? How is that not obscure? How did 
> Ted's secretary and the folks in the next cubicle absorb that with 
> perfectly clarity? I'm nor sure I get it myself. Or want it, for that 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 11 20:14:30 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:14:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <1c7.2c3b7f79.30045b7f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014901c58676$ace1f6c0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I don't have an iota of trouble with the Kooser project. I think it's easy to forget how much we read as 'insiders' when it comes to the art of poetry. Keeping the poems short makes perfect sense in context of a local newspaper. The poem needn't register a 95 out of a 100 on a Flesch readibility test but it makes sense to me that poems be reasonably accessible as well. (Though it would be nice if he slipped in an almost inscrutable but well-tied knot of language now & again, just to make sure the regular readers of the column are staying awake.)

It seems to me that some people are saying that if a local newspaper prints a chess puzzle with a simple caption like "Find Mate in 2.  Solution below." It somehow prevents another segment of the population, who really does know the game & its theories inside & out, from wanting to read/experience move by move Grandmaster play like Kasparov vs. Anand at the FIDE International Tournament in Berlin 2004. (I'm going home to watch a chess documentary tonight called Game Over. Come on over, popcorn's on me...

How about this comparison, James: Kooser's choice of poems compared with the choice of paintings reproduced in the "Arts" section of most newspapers?  The paintings are not all of barns.  

Your chess analogy is poor because chess problems are not supposed to be chess.  They are a game in themselves, for all levels of chess players.  In my newspaper, some are easy, some (to me) quite difficult--although, yes, all would be easy enough for a serious chess player.  But there's no next level up from them.  That is, I'm not asking Kooser to do the Cantos. 

I simply don't think it's fair for Kooser to give free space to my competitors.  He could very easily include a visual poem once in a while; many visual poems are criticized by visual poets as being too accessible.  Or he could feature an accessible language poem--or one that he could easily make accessible if he knew anything about poetry.  And tell me why a mathemaku would not intrigue a reasonable number of people, if only as an oddity?  Why not ONE small opening for poetry that is not getting any help from the critics, university presses, university English departments, or grants-bestowers?  Why not one hint that some people are making other kinds of poems besides Iowa plaintext lyrics or formal poems?  Why, in other words, can we not have an American Poet Laureate who represents American Poetry instead of one narrow stream of it?

--Bob G.



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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Jul 11 20:22:17 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:22:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham
In-Reply-To: <d7.2989feb2.30044fb2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BEF88579.EDD%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 7/11/05 6:41 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 7/11/2005 3:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
Why Emily Dickinson Would Not Smile for the Camera," is just out
http://www.common-place.org/vol-04/no-02/gura/

http://www.unc.edu/~gura/dickinson/index.html

There is possibly another, later photo of ED.
Finnegan

_______________________________________________

I haven't followed the scholarship on this photo, which has been known for a
while.  When I was in grad school (late 1970s) I remember my professor
bringing in a possible ED image for us to ponder.  But I can't recall if
it's the same one as this.

To my amateur eyes, anyway, the image linked above is not a good match; her
mouth in particular doesn't seem similar enough to the one authenticated
Dickinson portrait.  Probably we'll never know for sure if this is
Dickinson, just as the Edison recording purportedly of Whitman reading will
always be controversial.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

And from anther list, here is David Graham:
 
David Graham's essay, "Why Emily Dickinson Would Not Smile for the Camera,"
is just out
in the online mag Eclectica:
http://www.eclectica.org/v9n3/graham_david.html
About Poetry has posted David's brief essay, "A Student's Memories of
Richard
Eberhart."  They also feature two of his poems, "The Writing Life" and "Old
Poet Enduring Praise":
http://poetry.about.com/od/20thcenturypoets/a/grahameberhart.htm?nl=1
http://glclk.about.com/?zi=12/120N
http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/bldgraham.htm
(grahamd at ripon.edu)

____________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche



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From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Mon Jul 11 20:23:24 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:23:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] kooser poem
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B21@mail.emerson.edu>


Grasshoppers

This year they are exactly the size
of the pencil stub my grandfather kept
to mark off the days since rain,

and precisely the color of dust, of the roads
leading back across the dying fields
into the '30s. Walking the cracked lane

past the empty barn, the empty silo,
you hear them tinkering with irony,
slapping the grass like drops of rain.

  -- Ted Kooser



..... yeah i like it too, but i liked it better when William Stafford wrote it back in the 1970s....

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 11 20:59:18 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:59:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <1c7.2c3b7f79.30045b7f@aol.com>
	<014901c58676$ace1f6c0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <017301c5867c$eea562d0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Apologies for my sloppiness in clearly showing who wrote what in some of my recent postings.  I long ago mastered the >s, but those lines down the page still give me trouble.


--Bob G.
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From tad at opus40.org  Mon Jul 11 21:01:46 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:01:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <1c7.2c3b7f79.30045b7f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001801c5867d$49ac74c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I agree, Jim -- my only complaint was with Kooser's commentary.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet


  I don't have an iota of trouble with the Kooser project. I think
  it's easy to forget how much we read as 'insiders' when it
  comes to the art of poetry. Keeping the poems short makes
  perfect sense in context of a local newspaper. The poem
  needn't register a 95 out of a 100 on a Flesch readibility test 
  but it makes sense to me that poems be reasonably accessible 
  as well. (Though it would be nice if he slipped in an almost inscrutable 
  but well-tied knot of language now & again, just to make sure 
  the regular readers of the column are staying awake.)

  It seems to me that some people are saying that if a local newspaper
  prints a chess puzzle with a simple caption like "Find Mate in 2.
  Solution below." It somehow prevents another segment of the 
  population, who really does know the game & its theories inside & out, 
  from wanting to read/experience move by move Grandmaster play like Kasparov vs. Anand at the FIDE International Tournament in Berlin 2004. (I'm going home to watch a chess documentary tonight called
  Game Over. Come on over, popcorn's on me...
  http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=70020940&trkid=181026
  Finnegan



  In a message dated 7/11/2005 6:59:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

    > Grasshoppers
    > This year they are exactly the size
    > of the pencil stub my grandfather kept
    > to mark off the days since rain,
    >
    > and precisely the color of dust, of the roads
    > leading back across the dying fields
    > into the '30s. Walking the cracked lane
    >
    > past the empty barn, the empty silo,
    > you hear them tinkering with irony,
    > slapping the grass like drops of rain.
    >
    >  -- Ted Kooser
    >
    >
    >
    > OK, I kinda like this poem -- actually, I kinda like it a lot. I like all 
    > the allusions in the first two stanzas. They're accessible but still 
    > interesting. The grasshoppers exactly the size of something that has no 
    > exact size, and would be constantly changing with each day marked, and 
    > precisely the color of something that is no one color and only exists in 
    > memory. The movement and stasis, change and constancy, connection between 
    > past and present in the metaphor of an insect whose arrival is cyclical. 
    > And yeah, I think any intelligent newspaper reader could figure all that 
    > out, and at the same time it doesn't insult my intelligence (I can't speak 
    > for Bob's).
    >
    > But what about "tinkering with irony"? How is that not obscure? How did 
    > Ted's secretary and the folks in the next cubicle absorb that with 
    > perfectly clarity? I'm nor sure I get it myself. Or want it, for that 


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From tad at opus40.org  Mon Jul 11 21:02:58 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:02:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] kooser poem
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B21@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <004201c5867d$746afdd0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Really? This is a Stafford poem?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 8:23 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] kooser poem



Grasshoppers

This year they are exactly the size
of the pencil stub my grandfather kept
to mark off the days since rain,

and precisely the color of dust, of the roads
leading back across the dying fields
into the '30s. Walking the cracked lane

past the empty barn, the empty silo,
you hear them tinkering with irony,
slapping the grass like drops of rain.

  -- Ted Kooser



..... yeah i like it too, but i liked it better when William Stafford wrote 
it back in the 1970s....




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Mon Jul 11 21:03:30 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:03:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <1c7.2c3b7f79.30045b7f@aol.com><014901c58676$ace1f6c0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<017301c5867c$eea562d0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <004f01c5867d$879bdd20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Is this something a burstnorm poet should be worrying about?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 8:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet


  Apologies for my sloppiness in clearly showing who wrote what in some of my recent postings.  I long ago mastered the >s, but those lines down the page still give me trouble.


  --Bob G.


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 11 21:19:49 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:19:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <1c7.2c3b7f79.30045b7f@aol.com><014901c58676$ace1f6c0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><017301c5867c$eea562d0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<004f01c5867d$879bdd20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <019801c5867f$cc52bc70$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Is this something a burstnorm poet should be worrying about?

Mole


Sorry, I don't see what my kind of poetry has to do with correct attribution of opinions.  By the way, the derision my "burstnorm" term has gotten has made me change it to "meta-vernacular," which I pair with "vernacular" to divide the poetry the professors know about from the kind I and my friends do.  I include formal verse under vernacular because it is much more vernacular than visual poetry, for instance.  So I now have two instead of three main kinds of poetry, which works better, I think.  Vernacular divides into our old friends, formal verse and free verse, meta-vernacular into language poetry and pluraesthetic poetry, the latter being poetry significantly using two expressive modalities (like words and graphic images in visual poetry).  I hope no one will take "vernacular" to be insulting.  It is not meant to be.

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jul 11 21:56:15 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:56:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
Message-ID: <54.47f061b9.30047d3f@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/11/2005 9:20:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Sorry, I don't see what my kind of poetry has to do with correct 
> attribution of opinions.  By the way, the derision my "burstnorm" term has gotten has 
> made me change it to "meta-vernacular," which I pair with "vernacular" to 
> divide the poetry the professors know about from the kind I and my friends do.  I 
> include formal verse under vernacular because it is much more vernacular 
> than visual poetry, for instance.  So I now have two instead of three main kinds 
> of poetry, which works better, I think.  Vernacular divides into our old 
> friends, formal verse and free verse, meta-vernacular into language poetry and 
> pluraesthetic poetry, the latter being poetry significantly using two 
> expressive modalities (like words and graphic images in visual poetry).  I hope no 
> one will take "vernacular" to be insulting.  It is not meant to be.
> 

A Dante or a Wordsworth probably had little trouble with 'vernacular' as
an attribution. I think what Tad is pointing to is a "false problem." Setting
things at odds that are not even competing for the same space in the 
admittedly fragmentary psyche of the public mien.
Finnegan 
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From tad at opus40.org  Mon Jul 11 22:06:28 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:06:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <1c7.2c3b7f79.30045b7f@aol.com><014901c58676$ace1f6c0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><017301c5867c$eea562d0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5867d$879bdd20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<019801c5867f$cc52bc70$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <009501c58686$5ca14660$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

>>>By the way, the derision my "burstnorm" term has gotten has made me change it to "meta-vernacular,"

Your thought is that this will somehow engender less derision?



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 9:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet


  Is this something a burstnorm poet should be worrying about?

  Mole


  Sorry, I don't see what my kind of poetry has to do with correct attribution of opinions.  By the way, the derision my "burstnorm" term has gotten has made me change it to "meta-vernacular," which I pair with "vernacular" to divide the poetry the professors know about from the kind I and my friends do.  I include formal verse under vernacular because it is much more vernacular than visual poetry, for instance.  So I now have two instead of three main kinds of poetry, which works better, I think.  Vernacular divides into our old friends, formal verse and free verse, meta-vernacular into language poetry and pluraesthetic poetry, the latter being poetry significantly using two expressive modalities (like words and graphic images in visual poetry).  I hope no one will take "vernacular" to be insulting.  It is not meant to be.

  --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 11 22:30:02 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:30:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <54.47f061b9.30047d3f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01d801c58689$9ba26580$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 9:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet


  In a message dated 7/11/2005 9:20:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


    Sorry, I don't see what my kind of poetry has to do with correct attribution of opinions.  By the way, the derision my "burstnorm" term has gotten has made me change it to "meta-vernacular," which I pair with "vernacular" to divide the poetry the professors know about from the kind I and my friends do.  I include formal verse under vernacular because it is much more vernacular than visual poetry, for instance.  So I now have two instead of three main kinds of poetry, which works better, I think.  Vernacular divides into our old friends, formal verse and free verse, meta-vernacular into language poetry and pluraesthetic poetry, the latter being poetry significantly using two expressive modalities (like words and graphic images in visual poetry).  I hope no one will take "vernacular" to be insulting.  It is not meant to be.



  A Dante or a Wordsworth probably had little trouble with 'vernacular' as
  an attribution. I think what Tad is pointing to is a "false problem." Setting
  things at odds that are not even competing for the same space in the 
  admittedly fragmentary psyche of the public mien.
  Finnegan 

  Right, I now see.  But of course they're competing for the same space--with everything else a newspaper could run.  As for whether a burstnorm or meta-vernacular poet should "worry" about such things, why not?  One composes in hopes of an audience.  One also, if as needy financially as I, wouldn't mind getting the kind of money some poets definitely do (via grants, principally, but also by going to universities, etc.)  So publicity is important.  However, I don't "worry" about it, I simply get annoyed in passing at it.  I doubt that it has much effect on my output.  Especially with New-Poetry to let off steam about it at.  

  --Bob G.




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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 11 22:37:17 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:37:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <1c7.2c3b7f79.30045b7f@aol.com><014901c58676$ace1f6c0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><017301c5867c$eea562d0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5867d$879bdd20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><019801c5867f$cc52bc70$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<009501c58686$5ca14660$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <01e701c5868a$9f19e390$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>>>By the way, the derision my "burstnorm" term has gotten has made me change it to "meta-vernacular,"

  Your thought is that this will somehow engender less derision?

  Tad Richards

  Strange as it may seem, yes.  That's not to say I think it will escape the derision of the stasguards.  But they won't be able to say I'm using a term calculated to seem adventurously avant garde.  The new term seems more neutral to me, and should to others--"other than" vernacular, not "breaking convention."  But I'll still use "burstnorm" as a non-taxonomical descriptive term.  I consider two of the poetries I now categorize as "vernacular" to be "burstnorm"--jump-cut poetry and surrealistic poetry because they break the conventions of narrative logic and perceptual (I guess) logic, respectively.

  --Bob G.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 12 07:42:29 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:42:29 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] visual
Message-ID: <005401c586d6$c8972880$59aa3252@ANNY>

*
I got here a while ago, a good collection of artwork by Bert Christensen, Toronto, Canada:

Alphabetical List of artists:
http://bertc.com/artist_alpha.htm

The art of illustration:
http://bertc.com/subfive/flash/illustration_menu.htm


______________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 12 08:42:20 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:42:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
In-Reply-To: <01e701c5868a$9f19e390$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42D3826C.6515.2E209@localhost>

On 11 Jul 2005 at 22:37, Bob Grumman wrote: 
> ... That's not to say I think it will escape the derision of the stasguards. 
> But they won't be able to say I'm using a term calculated to seem
> adventurously avant garde.  The new term seems more neutral to me,
> and should to others--"other than" vernacular, not "breaking
> convention." <

It's not more neutral, though, because you're not using the word as it is 
commonly used now. You're trying to use it to mean "other than" rather 
than "about".

Meta in common use most often means "about"; in ancient Greek it 
meant "with" most often, though sometimes meant "change" as in 
"metamorphosis". 

It's often interesting to consider the meta-theory of a given subject or 
issue, of course, because the theoretical consideration of its foundations 
and methods usually offers some insight into its conclusions or results, 
and perhaps there is a good reason to use "metapoetry" or 
"metavernacular" or even "metavernacular poetry" if we take a 
metapoem as a poem about poetry or about itself, or metadiscussion is 
a discussion about how the discussion will be conducted, and so on. 
"Metavernacular" ought reasonably to mean "about the vernacular"; one 
would expect, on encountering it in the phrase "metavernacular poetry" 
that it meant "poetry about the vernacular", whatever that might be. 

So you're using "meta" here in an unusual way if you mean it to mean 
what you say: "other than" rather than "about". The term is clearly not 
being used as "meta" is commonly used.

Marcus





From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jul 12 09:13:39 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:13:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
Message-ID: <201.56be786.30051c03@aol.com>

It is the task of radical thought, since the world is given to us 
unintelligibly, to make it more unintelligible, more enigmatic, more fabulous.

Jean Baudrillard
    --The Guardian, 14/03/2000

Bob,
A 'quote of the day' recently rec'd and bearig a little, I think, on your
coinages, both old and new. I don't agree with Baudrillard's take on
obfuscating thought being the task of radical thought but I do vote for 
'burstnorm' over 'metavernacular' all day long. If you're going to invent terms 
keep them punchy and memorable. And accurate would be nice too.
Finnegan


In a message dated 7/11/2005 10:37:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>>>By the way, the derision my "burstnorm" term has gotten has made me change 
it to "meta-vernacular,"

Your thought is that this will somehow engender less derision?

Tad Richards

Strange as it may seem, yes.  That's not to say I think it will escape the 
derision of the stasguards.  But they won't be able to say I'm using a term 
calculated to seem adventurously avant garde.  The new term seems more neutral to 
me, and should to others--"other than" vernacular, not "breaking convention."  
But I'll still use "burstnorm" as a non-taxonomical descriptive term.  I 
consider two of the poetries I now categorize as "vernacular" to be 
"burstnorm"--jump-cut poetry and surrealistic poetry because they break the conventions of 
narrative logic and perceptual (I guess) logic, respectively.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jul 12 09:27:02 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:27:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <42D3826C.6515.2E209@localhost>
Message-ID: <003501c586e5$64393270$96b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 11 Jul 2005 at 22:37, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> ... That's not to say I think it will escape the derision of the 
>> stasguards.
>> But they won't be able to say I'm using a term calculated to seem
>> adventurously avant garde.  The new term seems more neutral to me,
>> and should to others--"other than" vernacular, not "breaking
>> convention." <
>
> It's not more neutral, though, because you're not using the word as it is
> commonly used now. You're trying to use it to mean "other than" rather
> than "about".

You may be right, Marcus.  My dictionary says it can mean "beyond," which is 
somewhat unneutrally positive--although in "metaphysics," it seems 
negative--to me, at any rate--because metaphysics is so much less than 
physics, although "beyond" it.  My dictionary also gives "more specialized 
form of," which would fit.  But maybe I should use "para?"

I just checked my dictionary and it seems to fit.  So, you made me change my 
mind.  (Note to Jeff: I'm not always right.)  It's now PARAVERNACULAR. 
Thanks.  I'm now even going to write something good about you in my blog 
entry for today.  And you can get in tomorrow's, too, if you can tell me why 
"paravernacular poetry" doesn't work.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jul 12 09:40:24 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:40:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <201.56be786.30051c03@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c586e7$4210ece0$96b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

It is the task of radical thought, since the world is given to us unintelligibly, to make it more unintelligible, more enigmatic, more fabulous.

Jean Baudrillard
    --The Guardian, 14/03/2000

  Bob,
  A 'quote of the day' recently rec'd and bearig a little, I think, on your
  coinages, both old and new. I don't agree with Baudrillard's take on
  obfuscating thought being the task of radical thought but I do vote for 'burstnorm' over 'metavernacular' all day long. If you're going to invent terms keep them punchy and memorable. And accurate would be nice too.
  Finnegan

  Ha, I think I've learned how to get my terms accepted: turn against them!  But I'm keeping burstnorm as a term for the kinds of poetry I've been using it for.  I've kicked it out of my taxonomy, though.  Accuracy is my main concern there.  Thanks, by the way, for suggesting "burstnorm" is "punchy and memorable"--but no one has picked up on it--except to ridicule it and/or me.

  --Bob
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Jul 12 11:57:55 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:57:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] This Is Stupid, But Fun
Message-ID: <731bb17a05071208576908affc@mail.gmail.com>

http://quizilla.com/users/bleedingpoet/quizzes/Which%2020th%20Century%20Poet%20Are%20You?/
 Find out who you are.
 Jeff Newberry
 (I was Wallace Stevens . . . )

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 12 12:30:56 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:30:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] This Is Stupid, But Fun
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05071208576908affc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42D3B800.5203.D42E9A@localhost>

Whee. I was Sharon Olds.
Marcus


On 12 Jul 2005 at 11:57, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> http://quizilla.com/users/bleedingpoet/quizzes/Which%2020th%20Century%20Poet%20Are%20You?/
>  Find out who you are.
>  Jeff Newberry
>  (I was Wallace Stevens . . . )
> 
> -- 
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> --Miguel de Unamuno
> 
> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> 




From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Tue Jul 12 12:37:42 2005
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:37:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] This Is Stupid, But Fun
In-Reply-To: <42D3B800.5203.D42E9A@localhost>
References: <731bb17a05071208576908affc@mail.gmail.com>
	<42D3B800.5203.D42E9A@localhost>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050712113708.01b08cb0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Another Wallace Stevens here--but I secretly wish I had been Sharon Olds!

                                                 Bill Morgan

At 11:30 AM 7/12/2005, you wrote:
>Whee. I was Sharon Olds.
>Marcus
>
>
>On 12 Jul 2005 at 11:57, Jeff Newberry wrote:
>
> > 
> http://quizilla.com/users/bleedingpoet/quizzes/Which%2020th%20Century%20Poet%20Are%20You?/
> >  Find out who you are.
> >  Jeff Newberry
> >  (I was Wallace Stevens . . . )
> >
> > --
> > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> > --Miguel de Unamuno
> >
> > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 12 12:56:33 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:56:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
In-Reply-To: <003501c586e5$64393270$96b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42D3BE01.31222.EBA215@localhost>

Well, the common use of "para" as a nonce prefix today means 
something like "nearly", "pretty close to", or "not quite" -- paralegal, 
paramedic, paranormal, and the like. It seems to me to be derogatory in 
the way adding -ess to poet or -ette to some noun (columnette, 
truckette, menschette) is derogatory. 

Besides, what you're referring to as "paravernacular" isn't really "nearly 
vernacular", or "pretty close to" vernacular, or even "not quite" 
vernacular" -- what you're referring to is really pretty far away from the 
vernacular, isn't it? In fact, it seems to me, that the closer you try to 
make it appear to the vernacular the more false the name must be to the 
thing itself.  

Why not "vernacular and non-vernacular"? Or, if you really want to try to 
tread that line of neutrality, why not "vernacular and neo-vernacular"? 
You are still dissing what you would call "the non-burstnorm" by calling it 
"vernacular", but with "neo-vernacular" you are doing two things: calling 
the thing to which you wish to refer by the same gauge of name-ness, if 
you'll forgive the awkwardness of that locution, and "new" is just exactly 
what you hope it is, while the notion of "new vernacular" also gives the 
impression that, as I believe you believe, it'll replace the "old 
vernacular".

Marcus





On 12 Jul 2005 at 9:27, Bob Grumman wrote:

> 
> 
> > On 11 Jul 2005 at 22:37, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >> ... That's not to say I think it will escape the derision of the 
> >> stasguards.
> >> But they won't be able to say I'm using a term calculated to seem
> >> adventurously avant garde.  The new term seems more neutral to me,
> >> and should to others--"other than" vernacular, not "breaking
> >> convention." <
> >
> > It's not more neutral, though, because you're not using the word as it is
> > commonly used now. You're trying to use it to mean "other than" rather
> > than "about".
> 
> You may be right, Marcus.  My dictionary says it can mean "beyond," which is 
> somewhat unneutrally positive--although in "metaphysics," it seems 
> negative--to me, at any rate--because metaphysics is so much less than 
> physics, although "beyond" it.  My dictionary also gives "more specialized 
> form of," which would fit.  But maybe I should use "para?"
> 
> I just checked my dictionary and it seems to fit.  So, you made me change my 
> mind.  (Note to Jeff: I'm not always right.)  It's now PARAVERNACULAR. 
> Thanks.  I'm now even going to write something good about you in my blog 
> entry for today.  And you can get in tomorrow's, too, if you can tell me why 
> "paravernacular poetry" doesn't work.
> 
> --Bob G. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 12 13:09:21 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:09:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gustaf Sobin NYT obit
In-Reply-To: <86u0j06tnu.fsf@argos.fun-fun.prv>
References: <86u0j06tnu.fsf@argos.fun-fun.prv>
Message-ID: <79f3f075b622f5694e3bbbb39ac89005@earthlink.net>

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July 12, 2005

Gustaf Sobin, 69, a Writer Who Celebrated Provence, Is Dead

By KATHRYN SHATTUCK


Gustaf Sobin, an American-born writer who for more than 40 years wove 
the history, sensations and language of his adopted Provence into his 
poetry and prose, died on July 7 at a hospital in Cavaillon, Vaucluse, 
near his home in Goult in the south of France. He was 69.

  The cause was pancreatic cancer, his wife, Susannah Sobin, said.

Mr. Sobin (pronounced SO-bin) saw himself principally as a poet, but 
his greatest popularity came with a novel, "The Fly-Truffler" (W. W. 
Norton, 2000).

  Set on a family farm, the short novel follows Philippe Cabassac, a 
loner nearing 50 who lectures on the fading Proven?al dialect at the 
University of Avignon, as he tumbles into madness over the loss of his 
wife, Julieta, who died two years earlier. A beautiful student half his 
age, Julieta had become disconnected from life after a failed 
pregnancy. Cabassac discovers that his nightly ritual of eating 
truffles predisposes him to dreams of his beloved. And so each winter 
he wanders his property, patting the earth with a little whisk broom to 
rouse "lei mousco," the golden flies that reveal the buried truffles - 
"far more carnal, fleshy, gamelike than anything vegetal."

Reviewing Mr. Sobin's "marvelous, mesmerizing new novel" in The New 
York Times, Christopher Lehmann-Haupt called it "one of those rare, 
haunting novels that you consume in a single sitting and that you put 
down wondering what day it is and where you are, as if awakening from 
one of Cabassac's enrapturing dreams."

Born in Boston on Nov. 15, 1935, Mr. Sobin graduated from Brown 
University in 1957, by which time he had traveled extensively in Europe 
and visited Ernest Hemingway in Cuba, not far from his parents' second 
home in Palm Beach.

Mr. Sobin said that Hemingway, at once entirely American and 
"consummately expatriate," was "the bridge" between continents, "the 
gateway out." As an aspiring poet, Mr. Sobin strove to emulate him. In 
1962, Mr. Sobin arrived in Paris where he almost immediately met Ren? 
Char, a French poet whom he admired greatly. "If you love my poetry, 
you must visit Provence," Char told him, "because my poetry comes of 
out the earth, the land and the light."

Mr. Sobin journeyed south and found the sense of place that had eluded 
him during his childhood in New England. He bought an abandoned silk 
cocoonery in the village of Goult, in the Vaucluse, for $800 and lived 
off the $2,000 annual income from a trust fund.

"I learnt how to read the landscape as one might read a text," Mr. 
Sobin recollected of his adopted countryside, "a textus, a woven 
fabric."

A close associate of Char, Mr. Sobin nonetheless found the relationship 
severed for a time, when in 1968 he bucked his mentor's belief that a 
poet is wed only to himself and married the English painter Susannah 
Bott. That year she gave birth to their daughter, Esther; their son, 
Gabriel, was born in 1971. In December 1972, after a decade of 
incubation, Mr. Sobin wrote what he considered his first poem. After 
issuing a number of chapbooks, his first major book of poetry, "Wind 
Chrysalid's Rattle," was published in 1980 by Montemora.

In all, Mr. Sobin published more than a dozen books of poetry, four 
novels, a children's story and two compilations of essays, the second 
to be issued next spring. He was working on a collection of poems and a 
project about Provence with the photographer James Hajicek at his 
death.

In addition to his wife and children, all of Provence, he is survived 
by a brother, Harris Sobin, of Tucson.



Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Tue Jul 12 13:18:32 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:18:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] This Is Stupid, But Fun
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050712113708.01b08cb0@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <731bb17a05071208576908affc@mail.gmail.com>
	<42D3B800.5203.D42E9A@localhost>
	<6.0.2.0.2.20050712113708.01b08cb0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <33abf27505071210183658e050@mail.gmail.com>

"You are T.S. Eliot. You realize your poems are very difficult. You provide 
footnotes. You worship Pound." 
 That's very noncommittal language. Am I being insulted or praised?


 On 7/12/05, Bill Morgan <wwmorgan at ilstu.edu> wrote: 
> 
> Another Wallace Stevens here--but I secretly wish I had been Sharon Olds!
> 
> Bill Morgan
> 
> At 11:30 AM 7/12/2005, you wrote:
> >Whee. I was Sharon Olds.
> >Marcus
> >
> >
> >On 12 Jul 2005 at 11:57, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> >
> > >
> > 
> http://quizilla.com/users/bleedingpoet/quizzes/Which%2020th%20Century%20Poet%20Are%20You?/
> > > Find out who you are.
> > > Jeff Newberry
> > > (I was Wallace Stevens . . . )
> > >
> > > --
> > > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> > > --Miguel de Unamuno
> > >
> > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jul 12 13:55:02 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:55:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Words and Birds; and the Elvis bird.
Message-ID: <53.2b5eeda5.30055df6@aol.com>

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:17:49 -0400
From:    Thomas Devaney <tdevaney at WRITING.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Words and Birds

----------------------------------------------------------------

     THE INSTITUTE OF CONTEMPORARY ART &
     THE KELLY WRITERS HOUSE

     present

     a summer evening extravaganza
     on the ICA terrace

     _______________________

     WORDS and BIRDS
     _______________________

     Wednesday, July 13th
     7 PM
     118 S. 36th Street

****************************************************************

"Words and Birds" is an extravaganza of art, poetry, film and music.

Poets Alan Gilbert, Sharon Mesmer, Tom Devaney, and Susan Stewart will
read new works featuring the poems commissioned to accompany Springtide.
     <http://www.icaphila.org/exhibitions/springtide-poems.php>

Join the ICA for a screening of "The Birdpeople" (U.S., 2004, 61 minutes).
Filmmaker Michael Gitlin will introduce the film which begins at dusk.
This acclaimed independent film, a favorite on the festival circuit, looks
at birdwatchers the way birdwatchers look at birds.
      <http://www.flatsurfacefilms.com/>

Listen to bird music and toast the re-discovery of the ivory-billed
woodpecker, thought to be extinct for more than half a century. On the
sighting of the woodpecker, US National Audubon Society's Frank Gill says
"It is kind of like finding Elvis!" For more information about the
ivory-billed bird see postcards from the field.
      <http://www.nature.org/ivorybill/lordgodbird/>

"Words and Birds" is a collaboration with the ICA, Kelly Writers House,
and Penn Cinema Studies.
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Jul 12 16:31:22 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:31:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kees Again
Message-ID: <731bb17a05071213314b79dc29@mail.gmail.com>

A few weeks ago, I posted an article from *The New Yorker* which argued 
(among other things) that much of Weldon Kees' popularity rests on his 
mystique--the poet whose disappearance remains a mystery.
 Jay Robinson in *Agni* thinks otherwise:
 "Kees, however, also engendered interest. Had he not disappeared, a 
probable suicide, his car found abandoned on the approach to the Golden Gate 
Bridge in the summer of 1955, he no doubt never would have become the 
mythological figure he is today. As a matter of fact, a sect of readers 
still believe Kees didn't jump after all, but scurried off to Mexico to 
spend out his days in relative obscurity?a nice, if romantically flawed 
notion, considering Kees's own obscurity, his dire frustration at his 
inability to firmly establish himself as an artist, was probably one of the 
more elemental reasons for his decision to "disappear" in the first place. 
These facts aside, Kees's greatest endowments are his poems, however, not 
the myths or debates his vanishing has created."
 http://www.bu.edu/agni/essays-reviews/online/2005/robinson.html
 Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jul 12 18:24:53 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:24:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] This Is Stupid, But Fun
References: <731bb17a05071208576908affc@mail.gmail.com><42D3B800.5203.D42E9A@localhost><6.0.2.0.2.20050712113708.01b08cb0@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<33abf27505071210183658e050@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d001c58730$86f573a0$96b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

"You are T.S. Eliot. You realize your poems are very difficult. You provide footnotes. You worship Pound." 

  That's very noncommittal language.  Am I being insulted or praised?

  Since I'm Ezra Pound, it's clear you are being praised.
  (Pretty slim selection of poets one can be, but I'll take Ez.)

  --Bob

   
  On 7/12/05, Bill Morgan <wwmorgan at ilstu.edu> wrote: 
    Another Wallace Stevens here--but I secretly wish I had been Sharon Olds!

                                                    Bill Morgan 

    At 11:30 AM 7/12/2005, you wrote:
    >Whee. I was Sharon Olds.
    >Marcus
    >
    >
    >On 12 Jul 2005 at 11:57, Jeff Newberry wrote:
    >
    > >
    > http://quizilla.com/users/bleedingpoet/quizzes/Which%2020th%20Century%20Poet%20Are%20You?/
    > >  Find out who you are.
    > >  Jeff Newberry
    > >  (I was Wallace Stevens . . . )
    > >
    > > -- 
    > > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
    > > --Miguel de Unamuno
    > >
    > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ 
    > >
    >
    >
    >_______________________________________________
    >New-Poetry mailing list
    >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




  -- 
  -------------------------------------------------
  Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't.  --Macbeth I:v 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jul 12 18:59:46 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:59:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <42D3BE01.31222.EBA215@localhost>
Message-ID: <00dd01c58735$666d9040$96b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Well, the common use of "para" as a nonce prefix today means
> something like "nearly", "pretty close to", or "not quite" -- paralegal,
> paramedic, paranormal, and the like. It seems to me to be derogatory in
> the way adding -ess to poet or -ette to some noun (columnette,
> truckette, menschette) is derogatory.

Maybe.

> Besides, what you're referring to as "paravernacular" isn't really "nearly
> vernacular", or "pretty close to" vernacular, or even "not quite"
> vernacular" -- what you're referring to is really pretty far away from the
> vernacular, isn't it? In fact, it seems to me, that the closer you try to
> make it appear to the vernacular the more false the name must be to the
> thing itself.

I'll have to think further on it..

> Why not "vernacular and non-vernacular"? Or, if you really want to try to
> tread that line of neutrality, why not "vernacular and neo-vernacular"?
> You are still dissing what you would call "the non-burstnorm" by calling 
> it
> "vernacular", but with "neo-vernacular" you are doing two things: calling
> the thing to which you wish to refer by the same gauge of name-ness, if
> you'll forgive the awkwardness of that locution, and "new" is just exactly
> what you hope it is, while the notion of "new vernacular" also gives the
> impression that, as I believe you believe, it'll replace the "old
> vernacular".
>
> Marcus

No to "non" because it is not non.  It isn't new, either.  "Neo" also makes 
it seem superior.  What I'd really like would be "left-vernacular" and 
"right-vernacular."  Two terms that seem neutral (although people would 
always find ways to take them as unneutral).  I think you're right about 
"paravernacular" but can't think of anything more suitable.

Orthovernacular and Xenovernacular?  I know: the first implies dowdiness. 
But the second equally implies irrationality.

I do not believe paravernacular poetry by whatever name will ever replace 
vernacular poetry by whatever name, or would want it to, by the way, but 
don't feel like getting into that whole area again.  Thanks for your 
other--helpful--thoughts, though.

--Bob G.





From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Tue Jul 12 19:12:13 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:12:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] This Is Stupid, But Fun
Message-ID: <200507122312.j6CNCDA7027034@mail4.atl.registeredsite.com>

9

I had to do it.  

"You are Adrienne Rich, feminist poet who explores the depths of the 
lesbian female soul. You believe real poetry delves into the real self."  

This is what I get for reading Paglia.  



Gregory St. Thomasino  


9



From chan_jt at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 12 20:51:41 2005
From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (JT Chan)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:51:41 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] PoetrySz:demystifying mental illness Retrospective
	issue now online
Message-ID: <BAY23-F5D4608A08EE46A757DDDB8ADE0@phx.gbl>

PoetrySz:demystifying mental illness 5th year Retrospective issue is now 
online at http://www.poetrysz.net.

Submissions for subsequent issues are welcome.  Send 3-6 poems in the body 
of your email to poetrysz at yahoo.com .

Thanks.

regards

J Chan
editor, PoetrySz
http://www.poetrysz.net

_________________________________________________________________
Looking for love? Check out XtraMSN Personals 
http://xtramsn.match.com/match/mt.cfm?pg=channel&tcid=200731



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul 13 03:18:37 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:18:37 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] *Helen Ruggieri* and the haibun
Message-ID: <003b01c5877b$16dc9850$71ec3652@ANNY>


I have little familiarity with haibuns haikus etc. but I can fully understand Helen Ruggieri's work, and praise it, this morning
from http://haibun.net/:


Helen Ruggieri, USA 


My Father's War

At 17 he drove an ambulance and learned to distinguish men from the mud they lay in, all brown uniforms, dead horses, splintered carts. He learned to distinguish corpse from casualty, searching cratered ruts, bunkers, alone with the dying, the pattern of war.

Mostly, he remembers the mud, the viscosity of it, the color, the smell.

The shells come down along the road: one, two, three, four in a line. The first one sights you in, and so forth, until they get you with the last. You drive like hell, caught in the ruts, skidding, then stop quick, before the next four come down. At each fast stop, each racing start, the screams, how they cursed him, "Damn you to hell." "For Christ's sake!". But you don't listen to them, you listen to the guns, waiting for that pause in the middle, that caesura, the punctuation of life. "If your timing's off," he'd say, "too bad, forever."

It snowed on Easter Day, heavy spring snow which melted into the mud, stalling vehicles, miring horses. In the tents the surgeons worked stained with blood or mud, who knows. They tot up the numbers, wait for the shell-shocked to stumble in laughing or crying. Head wounds, chest wounds, limbs cut away, gore thick on the stone floor, guns rumbling 1 - 2 - 3 - 4. 149 stretcher cases.

At dark they drive without lights into town to trade blankets.

The dead don't need them. They hold them up to show no holes, count off - un, deuce, trey, qwat, open the first bottle of wine. Mademoiselle from Armentieres, parlez vous silence de mort?

A cold wind from the north blows through the tent, rattles the flies. The blanketless dead count cadence. My father wakes in the silence before dawn holding the length of that pause closer than a woman.

in the mud 
frozen footprints 
Easter morning 
 

___________________________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Jul 13 10:47:32 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:47:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] *Helen Ruggieri* and the haibun
References: <003b01c5877b$16dc9850$71ec3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <009a01c587b9$cd3f62b0$9ddcf63f@Helen>

Thanks for posting Anny.  I hadn't read it in a while and it was like reading someone else's work - 
h
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:18 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] *Helen Ruggieri* and the haibun



  I have little familiarity with haibuns haikus etc. but I can fully understand Helen Ruggieri's work, and praise it, this morning
  from http://haibun.net/:


  Helen Ruggieri, USA 


  My Father's War

  At 17 he drove an ambulance and learned to distinguish men from the mud they lay in, all brown uniforms, dead horses, splintered carts. He learned to distinguish corpse from casualty, searching cratered ruts, bunkers, alone with the dying, the pattern of war.

  Mostly, he remembers the mud, the viscosity of it, the color, the smell.

  The shells come down along the road: one, two, three, four in a line. The first one sights you in, and so forth, until they get you with the last. You drive like hell, caught in the ruts, skidding, then stop quick, before the next four come down. At each fast stop, each racing start, the screams, how they cursed him, "Damn you to hell." "For Christ's sake!". But you don't listen to them, you listen to the guns, waiting for that pause in the middle, that caesura, the punctuation of life. "If your timing's off," he'd say, "too bad, forever."

  It snowed on Easter Day, heavy spring snow which melted into the mud, stalling vehicles, miring horses. In the tents the surgeons worked stained with blood or mud, who knows. They tot up the numbers, wait for the shell-shocked to stumble in laughing or crying. Head wounds, chest wounds, limbs cut away, gore thick on the stone floor, guns rumbling 1 - 2 - 3 - 4. 149 stretcher cases.

  At dark they drive without lights into town to trade blankets.

  The dead don't need them. They hold them up to show no holes, count off - un, deuce, trey, qwat, open the first bottle of wine. Mademoiselle from Armentieres, parlez vous silence de mort?

  A cold wind from the north blows through the tent, rattles the flies. The blanketless dead count cadence. My father wakes in the silence before dawn holding the length of that pause closer than a woman.

  in the mud 
  frozen footprints 
  Easter morning 

  ___________________________________________

  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------
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From faustina1 at aol.com  Wed Jul 13 10:52:12 2005
From: faustina1 at aol.com (faustina1 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:52:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] *Helen Ruggieri* and the haibun
In-Reply-To: <009a01c587b9$cd3f62b0$9ddcf63f@Helen>
References: <003b01c5877b$16dc9850$71ec3652@ANNY>
	<009a01c587b9$cd3f62b0$9ddcf63f@Helen>
Message-ID: <8C755D1966341AA-870-11F3A@MBLK-M21.sysops.aol.com>

Wow, that is good!  Thanks for sending me there.  Janet 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Helen Ruggieri <hruggier at localnet.com>
Sent: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:47:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] *Helen Ruggieri* and the haibun


Thanks for posting Anny.  I hadn't read it in a while and it was like reading someone else's work - 
h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Anny Ballardini 
To: New Poetry 
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:18 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] *Helen Ruggieri* and the haibun


 
I have little familiarity with haibuns haikus etc. but I can fully understand Helen Ruggieri's work, and praise it, this morning
from http://haibun.net/:
 
 
Helen Ruggieri, USA 

My Father's War
At 17 he drove an ambulance and learned to distinguish men from the mud they lay in, all brown uniforms, dead horses, splintered carts. He learned to distinguish corpse from casualty, searching cratered ruts, bunkers, alone with the dying, the pattern of war.
Mostly, he remembers the mud, the viscosity of it, the color, the smell.
The shells come down along the road: one, two, three, four in a line. The first one sights you in, and so forth, until they get you with the last. You drive like hell, caught in the ruts, skidding, then stop quick, before the next four come down. At each fast stop, each racing start, the screams, how they cursed him, "Damn you to hell." "For Christ's sake!". But you don't listen to them, you listen to the guns, waiting for that pause in the middle, that caesura, the punctuation of life. "If your timing's off," he'd say, "too bad, forever."
It snowed on Easter Day, heavy spring snow which melted into the mud, stalling vehicles, miring horses. In the tents the surgeons worked stained with blood or mud, who knows. They tot up the numbers, wait for the shell-shocked to stumble in laughing or crying. Head wounds, chest wounds, limbs cut away, gore thick on the stone floor, guns rumbling 1 - 2 - 3 - 4. 149 stretcher cases.
At dark they drive without lights into town to trade blankets.
The dead don't need them. They hold them up to show no holes, count off - un, deuce, trey, qwat, open the first bottle of wine. Mademoiselle from Armentieres, parlez vous silence de mort?
A cold wind from the north blows through the tent, rattles the flies. The blanketless dead count cadence. My father wakes in the silence before dawn holding the length of that pause closer than a woman.
in the mud 
frozen footprints 
Easter morning 
___________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 




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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 13 11:20:38 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:20:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] English Romantics: the movie
Message-ID: <12d.604c9e92.30068b46@aol.com>

http://www.smh.com.au/news/reviews/pandaemonium/2005/07/13/1120934299812.html?
oneclick=true
 
PANDAEMONIUM
Written by Frank Cottrell Boyce
Directed by Julien Temple
Rated M
Valhalla Glebe
 
When filmmakers land a hero who happens to be a poet and who's burdened with 
an opium habit and who lived in the rococo 18th century, it might be too much 
to expect them to stay their hand.

Pity, because buried beneath the lavishly embroidered flashbacks and 
hallucination scenes in the BBC costume drama Pandaemonium is a decent, though 
historically dubious, story about the relationship between the 18th-century British 
poets Samuel Taylor Coleridge and William Wordsworth.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 13 18:23:00 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:23:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sub-headline du jour
Message-ID: <b7a92c53858b07b339048c3d029be1b0@earthlink.net>


U.S. Poetry Laureate Visits Haystack

http://www.ellsworthamerican.com/archive/2005/07-14-05/ea_news9_07-14 
-05.html

Hal

Today's Special

Theory of Harmony
http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 13 18:27:36 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:27:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Come Out in Favor of Vurstnorm Poetry
References: <003b01c5877b$16dc9850$71ec3652@ANNY><009a01c587b9$cd3f62b0$9ddcf63f@Helen>
	<8C755D1966341AA-870-11F3A@MBLK-M21.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c587fa$12ce9770$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

According to the latest issue of American Book Review, Gioia "lay(s) the groundwork for a discussion of the four types of new literary poetry: 'performance poetry'; oral poetry, or 'Spoken Word Poetry'; 'audiovisual poetry,' which depends on both the graphic and auditory potentialities for poetry; and 'visual poetry,' exemplified by Language Poetry and Concrete Poetry.  Existing despite the university's declining role as the center of the poetry universe and the subsequent decline of conventional methods for establishing and sustaining a reputation, these new forms suggest a promising future for serious poetry."

Could it be true?  Gioia actually went on record in favor of visual poetry?  (Even if he revealed he knows next to nothing about it, if reviewer Lynnell Edwards accurately summarized him--it has nothing to do with language poetry, for instance, and it has long since cut its ties with concrete poetry.)

Of course, Gioia said this in just one essay.  In the rest of the book we find out where he really stands--right in the middle of Wilshberia, for all his critical essays are about poets in that sector of contemporary poetry, except for those about dead poets.

But according to his reviewer, he actually discusses the "new" poetries he mentioned.  Can this be true?  Anyone know?  I actually bought his first book of "criticism," but I'm not about to buy this one--though if my school library gets a copy, I'll probably read bits of it.

--Bob G.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Jul 13 18:50:26 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:50:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Come Out in Favor of Vurstnorm Poetry
Message-ID: <9f.62ea3fdb.3006f4b2@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/13/2005 5:32:07 PM Central Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
>  
>  But according to his reviewer, he actually discusses the "new" poetries he 
> mentioned.  Can this be true?  Anyone know?  I actually bought his first book 
> of "criticism," but I'm not about to buy this one--though if my school 
> library gets a copy, I'll probably read bits of it.
>   
>  --Bob G.
> 
He talks about the decline of print culture as it has existed in the past.  
But, but, but, Bob, does this mean that you actually intend to read his book 
(if not buy it) before you go on the offensive?
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 13 19:18:21 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:18:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry
References: <9f.62ea3fdb.3006f4b2@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00c301c58801$296ecfc0$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  In a message dated 7/13/2005 5:32:07 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 


    But according to his reviewer, he actually discusses the "new" poetries he mentioned.  Can this be true?  Anyone know?  I actually bought his first book of "criticism," but I'm not about to buy this one--though if my school library gets a copy, I'll probably read bits of it.
      
    --Bob G.


  He talks about the decline of print culture as it has existed in the past.  But, but, but, Bob, does this mean that you actually intend to read his book (if not buy it) before you go on the offensive? 
  I thought I was already on the offensive, Sam.  In any case, I don't know why one need read a particular work by a writer as predictable as Gioia to attack that work--unless one is attacking details of it.  



  --BobG
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From debra at debradicembre.com  Wed Jul 13 19:43:41 2005
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:43:41 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sub-headline du jour
References: <b7a92c53858b07b339048c3d029be1b0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001401c58804$b5231870$0301010a@galaxy>

Hello Hal,
Debra here.
Absolutely loving, 'Theory of Harmony'.
Particularly 'Sinners'...and Allure....
Haven't read in entirety...must get ready for work....but will get back to
it in the day.
The graphic is quite pixelated...not meant to be that way?
thanks again...most enjoyed
cheers
Debra
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 8:23 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sub-headline du jour


>
> U.S. Poetry Laureate Visits Haystack
>
> http://www.ellsworthamerican.com/archive/2005/07-14-05/ea_news9_07-14
> -05.html
>
> Hal
>
> Today's Special
>
> Theory of Harmony
> http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf
>
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From thom424 at aol.com  Wed Jul 13 20:08:05 2005
From: thom424 at aol.com (thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:08:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry
In-Reply-To: <00c301c58801$296ecfc0$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <9f.62ea3fdb.3006f4b2@cs.com>
	<00c301c58801$296ecfc0$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <8C7561F3DD9F9AF-C50-18DB1@mblk-r41.sysops.aol.com>


bob,

you're sounding like my old college roommate and many of my 
freshmen--"why bother reading the novel when you can read the back 
cover and inside the front flap."

agree or disagree with him, gioia makes cogent arguments whenever & 
wherever he writes. and gioia does know more than you might think. if 
you'd like, i'll send you my copy of his book to read and you can 
return it to me when you're through. i'll even pay return postage 
(media rate, of course).

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:18:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry


?
  In a message dated 7/13/2005 5:32:07 PM Central Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

But according to his reviewer, he actually discusses the "new" poetries 
he mentioned.? Can this be true?? Anyone know?? I actually bought his 
first book of "criticism," but I'm not about to buy this one--though if 
my school library gets a copy, I'll probably read bits of it.
?
--Bob G.

He talks about the decline of print culture as it has existed in the 
past.? But, but, but, Bob, does this mean that you actually intend to 
read his book (if not buy it) before you go on the offensive? I thought 
I was already on the offensive, Sam.? In any case, I don't know why one 
need read a particular work by a writer as predictable as Gioia to 
attack that work--unless one is attacking details of it.?

?

--BobG


   _______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Jul 13 20:20:36 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:20:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry
In-Reply-To: <00c301c58801$296ecfc0$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <9f.62ea3fdb.3006f4b2@cs.com>
	<00c301c58801$296ecfc0$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05071317206da3a02a@mail.gmail.com>

So now *you're* attacking someone for being predictable?
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/13/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 
> 
> 
>  In a message dated 7/13/2005 5:32:07 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> 
> 
> But according to his reviewer, he actually discusses the "new" poetries he 
> mentioned. Can this be true? Anyone know? I actually bought his first book 
> of "criticism," but I'm not about to buy this one--though if my school 
> library gets a copy, I'll probably read bits of it.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> 
> He talks about the decline of print culture as it has existed in the past. 
> But, but, but, Bob, does this mean that you actually intend to *read* his 
> book (if not buy it) before you go on the offensive? 
> 
> I thought I was already on the offensive, Sam. In any case, I don't know 
> why one need read a particular work by a writer as predictable as Gioia to 
> attack that work--unless one is attacking details of it. 
> 
> --BobG
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 13 21:21:27 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:21:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry
References: <9f.62ea3fdb.3006f4b2@cs.com><00c301c58801$296ecfc0$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<8C7561F3DD9F9AF-C50-18DB1@mblk-r41.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <00f001c58814$30f2d030$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>
> bob,
>
> you're sounding like my old college roommate and many of my freshmen--"why 
> bother reading the novel when you can read the back cover and inside the 
> front flap."

What if they're talking about the next Potter book, Thom?  I'll read it, but 
I already know what of significance is going to happen in it.


> agree or disagree with him, gioia makes cogent arguments whenever & 
> wherever he writes. and gioia does know more than you might think. if 
> you'd like, i'll send you my copy of his book to read and you can return 
> it to me when you're through. i'll even pay return postage (media rate, of 
> course).

You're on--although that other critic you got me to buy books by hasn't 
impressed me.  I'm glad I bought the books, though, for I think I can quote 
him to good effect in discussing what I call the mimeostream, which is the 
stream of poetry that diverged from the slickstream in the later fifties 
when poets started mimeographing chapbooks.  My thesis is that the academics 
weren't aware of the mimeostream then, and still aren't genuinely aware of 
it.  But it's where 90% of the real action in poetry has been the past fifty 
years. NOT where 90% of the best poems have appeared, which is an entirely 
different matter.

Gioia does try more than most critics to explore the full range of poetry, 
but he isn't good at it----because, I think, his heart isn't in it, he just 
doing it for literary-political reasons.

--Bob G.





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 13 21:34:34 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:34:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry
References: <9f.62ea3fdb.3006f4b2@cs.com><00c301c58801$296ecfc0$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a05071317206da3a02a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f101c58814$3162d010$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Jeff, you're like the old people who say all rock sounds the same.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry


  So now you're attacking someone for being predictable?

  Jeff Newberry


  Jeff, you're like the old people who say all rock sounds the same.  You are simply not competent to judge my thought and the expression of it.

  --Bob G.
   
  On 7/13/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 

     
      In a message dated 7/13/2005 5:32:07 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 



      But according to his reviewer, he actually discusses the "new" poetries he mentioned.  Can this be true?  Anyone know?  I actually bought his first book of "criticism," but I'm not about to buy this one--though if my school library gets a copy, I'll probably read bits of it. 
        
      --Bob G. 


    He talks about the decline of print culture as it has existed in the past.  But, but, but, Bob, does this mean that you actually intend to read his book (if not buy it) before you go on the offensive? 
    I thought I was already on the offensive, Sam.  In any case, I don't know why one need read a particular work by a writer as predictable as Gioia to attack that work--unless one is attacking details of it.  

     

    --BobG




    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry








  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From Thom424 at aol.com  Wed Jul 13 23:07:49 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:07:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry
Message-ID: <87.2b84b728.30073105@aol.com>

bob,

if you send me your snail-mail address (you can back channel it to me if you 
like), i'll send you gioia's *disappearing ink.* 

thom
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From writerslink at ozemail.com.au  Thu Jul 14 01:26:53 2005
From: writerslink at ozemail.com.au (Chris Mansell)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:26:53 +1000
Subject: new poetry listRe: [New-Poetry] *Helen Ruggieri* and the
	haibun
In-Reply-To: <8C755D1966341AA-870-11F3A@MBLK-M21.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BEFC34BD.13953%writerslink@ozemail.com.au>

> Dear Anny
> Thanks for putting this up. I went and investigated further. So much one
> doesn?t know.
> best
> Chris M.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Anny Ballardini
>> <javascript:parent.ComposeTo('anny.ballardini at tin.it');>
>> To: New Poetry <javascript:parent.ComposeTo('new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu');>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:18 AM
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] *Helen Ruggieri* and the haibun
>> 
>>  
>> I have little familiarity with haibuns haikus etc. but I can fully understand
>> Helen Ruggieri's work, and praise it, this morning
>> from http://haibun.net/:
>>  
>>  
>> Helen Ruggieri, USA
>> My Father's War...
>> in the mud 
>> frozen footprints
>> Easter morning 
>> ___________________________________________

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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Jul 14 08:40:16 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:40:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ron Silliman & Visual Poetry
Message-ID: <731bb17a050714054040b7b291@mail.gmail.com>

http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com/
 Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 14 09:17:32 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:17:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] 'Laureation' reaches Montana;
	can invasive species of versifiers be stopped? 
Message-ID: <204.594539d.3007bfec@aol.com>

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2005/07/14/build
/state/80-poet-laureate.inc
 
Florence woman picked as state's poet laureate 
Associated Press 
 
HELENA - Sandra Alcosser, of Florence, who has had seven books of her poetry 
published, is Montana's first poet laureate. 
 
Gov. Brian Schweitzer appointed her to the position Wednesday, choosing her 
from among three nominees from the Montana Arts Council. The other two 
finalists were Roger Dunsmore, of Missoula, and Lowell Jaeger, of Bigfork. Ten people 
applied for the post. 
 
The Montana poet laureate, created by the 2005 Legislature, recognizes and 
honors a citizen poet of exceptional talent and accomplishment. The role is 
meant to encourage appreciation of poetry and literary life in Montana by giving 
readings and presentations throughout the state, making poetry available to a 
wide state audience. 
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 14 10:02:00 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:02:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry
In-Reply-To: <00f001c58814$30f2d030$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42D63818.1060.110CF1C@localhost>

On 13 Jul 2005 at 21:21, Bob Grumman wrote:
> What if they're talking about the next Potter book, Thom?  I'll read it, but 
> I already know what of significance is going to happen in it.

This is the anti-intellectual, anti-literary mind-set in a nutshell. It 
assumes that everything is linear, and significance is entailed only in 
one kind of information. The how of it, the way it's said or presented, is 
entirely irrelevant to this view -- and it makes me think that Grumman's 
whole "mathemaku" thing is nothing but a fundamental 
misunderstanding -- or a mockery. 

But my bet is he doesn't get it -- he can't imagine why people read 
poetry or literature or look at art, but he's accepted that they do, so he 
has, in his Asperger's Syndrome way, doggedly determined to put his 
head down and take a straight line through art by applying math rules to 
English. He doesn't get it even enough to mock the Halvard Johnson 
notion of "everything is poetry" by taking it literally and presenting what 
is clearly not poetry as poetry as a mockery.

This may explain a lot about Grumman's approach -- and it's no wonder 
any more why he's so obsessed with "taxonomy", as well -- though he 
doesn't seem to "get it" in science, either, if he thinks what he's doing is 
science. He is simply seeking a primitive kind of order; he doesn't see or 
want to see nuance or significance. He just wants order and 
predictability. His whole poetics is based on a number of 
misunderstandings, primary among which is that he "already knows the 
significance" of anything he's going to read just from knowing the 
general position of the writer, or from the blurb, or the publisher, or from 
some other contextual clues, but, more importantly, that that significance 
is linear and communicable from such contextual clues. Grumman is 
essentially denying the purpose of literature whole: that how you say a 
thing is as or more important than what you say; and that how you say it 
influences what you say. 

Marcus



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul 14 10:52:41 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:52:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry
References: <42D63818.1060.110CF1C@localhost>
Message-ID: <002901c58883$b040d7a0$85b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 13 Jul 2005 at 21:21, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> What if they're talking about the next Potter book, Thom?  I'll read it, 
>> but
>> I already know what of significance is going to happen in it.
>
> This is the anti-intellectual, anti-literary mind-set in a nutshell.

Just to set you straight, Marcus, when I said I already know what of 
significance is going to happen in it, I didn't mean just of narrative 
significance.  I can't understand how you could come up with the 
characterization of me that you do.  I think even Jeff would consider it 
erroneous.  But if it makes you happy, welcome to it.
I'm sorry you felt you had to air yet again, though--just after you actually 
carried on what I thought was a good exchange about "metavernacular," etc.

--Bob G.




From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Thu Jul 14 11:37:22 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:37:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Interview with Geof Huth on Visual Poetry
Message-ID: <200507141537.j6EFbM3E003252@mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>

. 

An amazing interview with Geof Huth by Crag Hill and Ron Silliman.  

This is required reading for anyone with an interest in concrete / visual 
poetry.  Thank you, Crag Hill, thank you, Ron Silliman, and thank you, 
Geof Huth.  


http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com/  


Gregory St. Thomasino  


.



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 14 11:43:06 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:43:06 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] fishouse site
Message-ID: <6.48f07468.3007e20a@aol.com>

http://www.fishousepoems.org/

Nice collection of audio files for your i-po-pod.
Finnegan
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Jul 14 04:48:13 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 03:48:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Come Out in Favor of Vurstnorm Poetry
In-Reply-To: <009b01c587fa$12ce9770$30b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BEFB90FD.9844%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/13/05 5:27 PM, "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> According to the latest issue of American Book Review, Gioia "lay(s) the
> groundwork for a discussion of the four types of new literary poetry:
> 'performance poetry'; oral poetry, or 'Spoken Word Poetry'; 'audiovisual
> poetry,' which depends on both the graphic and auditory potentialities for
> poetry; and 'visual poetry,' exemplified by Language Poetry and Concrete
> Poetry.  Existing despite the university's declining role as the center of the
> poetry universe and the subsequent decline of conventional methods for
> establishing and sustaining a reputation, these new forms suggest a promising
> future for serious poetry."
>  
> Could it be true?  Gioia actually went on record in favor of visual poetry?
> (Even if he revealed he knows next to nothing about it, if reviewer Lynnell
> Edwards accurately summarized him--it has nothing to do with language poetry,
> for instance, and it has long since cut its ties with concrete poetry.)
>  
> Of course, Gioia said this in just one essay.  In the rest of the book we find
> out where he really stands--right in the middle of Wilshberia, for all his
> critical essays are about poets in that sector of contemporary poetry, except
> for those about dead poets.
>  
> But according to his reviewer, he actually discusses the "new" poetries he
> mentioned.  Can this be true?  Anyone know?  I actually bought his first book
> of "criticism," but I'm not about to buy this one--though if my school library
> gets a copy, I'll probably read bits of it.
>  
> --Bob G.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

See the essay ?Disappearing Ink? in the volume by that name.

Paul
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 14 12:20:32 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:20:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry
In-Reply-To: <002901c58883$b040d7a0$85b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42D65890.1341.18FA37E@localhost>

On 14 Jul 2005 at 10:52, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Just to set you straight, Marcus, when I said I already know what of 
> significance is going to happen in it, I didn't mean just of narrative 
> significance.<

Yeah, yeah -- you always claim to be misunderstood. But the problem is, 
I think, that you're _not_ misunderstood. After a while it becomes pretty 
clear that it's not hard to understand what you're saying, and what you're 
saying is anti-intellectual and anti-literary. The only question is whether 
you get it and are mocking the avant garde with faux-oblivious theories 
and faux-oblivious "poems", or whether you're serious.

Marcus




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul 14 14:19:21 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:19:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Comes Out in Favor of Burstnorm Poetry
References: <42D65890.1341.18FA37E@localhost>
Message-ID: <005801c588a0$8f469680$85b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 14 Jul 2005 at 10:52, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> Just to set you straight, Marcus, when I said I already know what of
>> significance is going to happen in it, I didn't mean just of narrative
>> significance.<

> Yeah, yeah -- you always claim to be misunderstood.

So, Marcus, do you REALLY think that I would consider the narrative content 
of a novel the only thing in it that could be of significance?

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul 14 14:33:27 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:33:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Interview with Geof Huth on Visual Poetry
References: <200507141537.j6EFbM3E003252@mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c588a2$88c04a70$45b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> An amazing interview with Geof Huth by Crag Hill and Ron Silliman.


Well, I can't say I was amazed by the interview, but I thought it a good 
one.  Along the way, my name came up.  Geof made some mostly quite 
flattering remarks about my taxonomizing, although he thinks it misguided. 
Naturally, I found fault with a few things he said about me.  I discuss them 
in my blog entry for today, which is at 
http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00529.html.
I may use an entry to comment on the interview as a whole at some point.

--Bob G. 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Jul 14 14:50:00 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:50:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Book/Huisman
References: <42D65890.1341.18FA37E@localhost>
	<005801c588a0$8f469680$85b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <01d901c588a4$dd3836b0$f2032cd9@Robin>

Rosemary Huisman, +the Written Poem:  Semiotic Conventions from Old to
Modern English+ (1998).

Anyone read this?

(Chapters 2 and 3 -- "The Seen Poem and its Semiosis" and "The Semiotic of
Art and Music" -- ought to be of particular interest to Bob Grumman.)

I'm making slow going of this, not because it's badly written or dull but
because the information-to-noise level is so high.

Strictly take-no-hostages.  (Or mibee it's that I'm slow.)

Every time I mention it, I'm greeted with a stunn[ed]ing silence.  Be nice
to think *someone* else other than me had read it and rated it.

Incidentally, how many laureates (pote) and of what varieties do you-all
have?  And do they matter?

We have only one ***  (Andrew Motion, term contract of is it 15 years) and I
find it difficult enough to remember that.  Let alone his poetry which is
infinitely ignorable.

The Real Lady (godmother to his daughter, if that matters) once sighed,
"Robin, why does everyone dislike Andrew so much?  Is it because he's
handsome and rich, or successful, or what?"

"Well, no," (I carefully didn't say, having some regard for my life), "it's
simply because he's a piss-awful poet."

            A ReEmergent Dormouse

*** Actually, that's not strictly true -- Edwin Morgan is currently, till
death departs him, Laureate of Scotland, and Wales has the Bard of Armagh.

R.




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 14 15:13:43 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:13:43 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Message-ID: <00dc01c588a8$271380c0$7cab3852@ANNY>


       
      American Life in Poetry: Column 005

      BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE

      Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle, but an experience. Here David Baker makes a gift to us through his deft description of an ordinary scene. Reading, we accept the experience of a poem and make it a part of our lives, just as we would take in the look of a mountain we passed on a trip. The poet's use of the words "we" and "neighbors" subtly underline the fact that all of us are members of the human community, much alike, facing the changing seasons together.



      Neighbors in October 

      All afternoon his tractor pulls a flat wagon 
      with bales to the barn, then back to the waiting 
      chopped field. It trails a feather of smoke. 
      Down the block we bend with the season: 
      shoes to polish for a big game, 
      storm windows to batten or patch. 
      And how like a field is the whole sky now 
      that the maples have shed their leaves, too. 
      It makes us believers - stationed in groups, 
      leaning on rakes, looking into space. We rub blisters 
      over billows of leaf smoke. Or stand alone, 
      bagging gold for the cold days to come. 




      David Baker's next book, "Midwest Eclogue," is forthcoming this fall from W. W. Norton. "Neighbors in October" is reprinted from "The Truth about Small Towns," University of Arkansas Press, 1998. This weekly column is supported by The Poetry Foundation, The Library of Congress and the Department of English at the University of Nebraska, Lincoln. This column does not accept unsolicited poetry.


      ______________________________________________ 

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 14 15:28:41 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:28:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] How To Make a Killing from Poetry
Message-ID: <149.48f127a4.300816e9@aol.com>

Hey, lighten up, dude...Poetry the magazine is doing a humor issue for July...

http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/0705/comment_171212.html
 
How To Make a Killing from Poetry: A Six Point Plan of Attack 
by Michael Lewis 
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 14 16:59:49 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:59:49 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Message-ID: <200507141936.j6EJYTht073494@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

Ah, when somebody tells me that poems DON'T (are arent' suppossed to have)
"hidden meanings,"
it makes me want to react as much as when someobody tells me poetry SHOULD
have Hidden meanings. I mean, generally I think the half-baked
"freudian-like" readings that many people still use when talking about
poetry are silly, but what's up with this so-called "tractor"---huh?
and those "maples" without any leaves? Just the things in themselves, right?

I personally still maintain the right to read a poem on a number of levels
(yeah, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, or sometimes it's, well....)
despite so-called authorial intention

C

----------
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2005, 11:13 AM




American Life in Poetry: Column 005

BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE

Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be
discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle,
but an experience. Here David Baker makes a gift to us through his deft
description of an ordinary scene. Reading, we accept the experience of a
poem and make it a part of our lives, just as we would take in the look of a
mountain we passed on a trip. The poet's use of the words "we" and
"neighbors" subtly underline the fact that all of us are members of the
human community, much alike, facing the changing seasons together.



Neighbors in October

All afternoon his tractor pulls a flat wagon
with bales to the barn, then back to the waiting
chopped field. It trails a feather of smoke.
Down the block we bend with the season:
shoes to polish for a big game,
storm windows to batten or patch.
And how like a field is the whole sky now
that the maples have shed their leaves, too.
It makes us believers ? stationed in groups,
leaning on rakes, looking into space. We rub blisters
over billows of leaf smoke. Or stand alone,
bagging gold for the cold days to come.



David Baker's next book, "Midwest Eclogue," is forthcoming this fall from W.
W. Norton. "Neighbors in October" is reprinted from "The Truth about Small
Towns," University of Arkansas Press, 1998. This weekly column is supported
by The Poetry Foundation, The Library of Congress and the Department of
English at the University of Nebraska, Lincoln. This column does not accept
unsolicited poetry.


______________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Jul 14 15:49:32 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:49:32 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <200507141936.j6EJYTht073494@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <023601c588ad$2b1f04a0$f2032cd9@Robin>

Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser(yeah, sometimes a cigar is
just a cigar, or sometimes it's, well....)

... as Kipling said:

        A woman is only a woman,
        But a good cigar is a smoke.

Groucho




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 14 15:56:18 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:56:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <200507141936.j6EJYTht073494@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <01e001c588ae$19f99040$7cab3852@ANNY>

Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooserceci n'est pas une pipe

c'est un Pope with the big nope
under poke keen of pop-coke
a neo-pen Poe without pop-corn

fully faith
Anny 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Stroffolino 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 10:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser


  Ah, when somebody tells me that poems DON'T (are arent' suppossed to have) "hidden meanings,"
  it makes me want to react as much as when someobody tells me poetry SHOULD have Hidden meanings. I mean, generally I think the half-baked "freudian-like" readings that many people still use when talking about poetry are silly, but what's up with this so-called "tractor"---huh?
  and those "maples" without any leaves? Just the things in themselves, right? 

  I personally still maintain the right to read a poem on a number of levels
  (yeah, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, or sometimes it's, well....)
  despite so-called authorial intention

  C

  ----------
  From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
  To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
  Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
  Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2005, 11:13 AM




     
    American Life in Poetry: Column 005

    BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE

    Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle, but an experience. Here David Baker makes a gift to us through his deft description of an ordinary scene. Reading, we accept the experience of a poem and make it a part of our lives, just as we would take in the look of a mountain we passed on a trip. The poet's use of the words "we" and "neighbors" subtly underline the fact that all of us are members of the human community, much alike, facing the changing seasons together.

     


    Neighbors in October 


    All afternoon his tractor pulls a flat wagon 
    with bales to the barn, then back to the waiting 
    chopped field. It trails a feather of smoke. 
    Down the block we bend with the season: 
    shoes to polish for a big game, 
    storm windows to batten or patch. 
    And how like a field is the whole sky now 
    that the maples have shed their leaves, too. 
    It makes us believers - stationed in groups, 
    leaning on rakes, looking into space. We rub blisters 
    over billows of leaf smoke. Or stand alone, 
    bagging gold for the cold days to come. 


     
    David Baker's next book, "Midwest Eclogue," is forthcoming this fall from W. W. Norton. "Neighbors in October" is reprinted from "The Truth about Small Towns," University of Arkansas Press, 1998. This weekly column is supported by The Poetry Foundation, The Library of Congress and the Department of English at the University of Nebraska, Lincoln. This column does not accept unsolicited poetry.
     
     
    ______________________________________________
    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
    Friedrich Nietzsche 
    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Jul 14 16:18:49 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:18:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] How To Make a Killing from Poetry
In-Reply-To: <149.48f127a4.300816e9@aol.com>
References: <149.48f127a4.300816e9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05071413182e34e627@mail.gmail.com>

Who used to draw cartoons for *Poets & Writers*?
 I have a good one on my office door: Time Saving Tips for Confessional 
Poets. I'm not at work right now, or I'd actually be tempted to scan it and 
provide a link. The upshot of the comic is this: confessional haiku.
 Anyone remember what I'm talking about?
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/14/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote: 
> 
> Hey, lighten up, dude...Poetry the magazine is doing a humor issue for 
> July...
> 
>  http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/0705/comment_171212.html
> 
>  How To Make a Killing from Poetry: A Six Point Plan of Attack 
> 
> by Michael Lewis 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Jul 14 16:41:02 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:41:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 'Laureation' reaches Montana;
	can invasive species of versifiers be stopped? 
References: <204.594539d.3007bfec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006101c588b4$5dc01f50$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Should have gone to J. V. Cunningham, posthumously.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:17 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] 'Laureation' reaches Montana;can invasive species of versifiers be stopped? 


  http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2005/07/14/build/state/80-poet-laureate.inc

   

  Florence woman picked as state's poet laureate 

  Associated Press 

   

  HELENA - Sandra Alcosser, of Florence, who has had seven books of her poetry published, is Montana's first poet laureate. 

   

  Gov. Brian Schweitzer appointed her to the position Wednesday, choosing her from among three nominees from the Montana Arts Council. The other two finalists were Roger Dunsmore, of Missoula, and Lowell Jaeger, of Bigfork. Ten people applied for the post. 


   

  The Montana poet laureate, created by the 2005 Legislature, recognizes and honors a citizen poet of exceptional talent and accomplishment. The role is meant to encourage appreciation of poetry and literary life in Montana by giving readings and presentations throughout the state, making poetry available to a wide state audience. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul 14 16:41:26 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:41:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <00dc01c588a8$271380c0$7cab3852@ANNY>
Message-ID: <004f01c588b4$68387b30$45b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


        BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE

        Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle, but an experience.

        Anyone besides me think that a rather absolutist statement?
        What's wrong with SOME poems being PUZZLES as well
        as "experiences?"  What's wrong with SOME poems requiring a reader to pry out subtle meanings?  I think some of the poems Kooser has selected are fairly good, but this
        seems the worst he's picked.  A poem that's not puzzling enough is as bad as a poem that's too puzzling.  (I know--NOW I'm being absolutist.  I would say that I'm being so rather differently from Kooser, however.

        --Bob G. 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 14 16:57:27 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:57:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] How To Make a Killing from Poetry
References: <149.48f127a4.300816e9@aol.com>
	<731bb17a05071413182e34e627@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <029a01c588b6$a4b3a830$7cab3852@ANNY>

I am not helping you Jeff, because I do not know, I just want to add something to the comic, this is maybe my favorite:
http://www.geocities.com/erslyman/muse3.jpg

but there are some other ones worth seeing:
http://www.geocities.com/erslyman/best.html

author: Ernest Slyman


  From: Jeff Newberry 
  Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 10:18 PM


  Who used to draw cartoons for Poets & Writers?

  I have a good one on my office door:  Time Saving Tips for Confessional Poets.  I'm not at work right now, or I'd actually be tempted to scan it and provide a link.  The upshot of the comic is this:  confessional haiku. 

  Anyone remember what I'm talking about?

  Jeff Newberry

   
  On 7/14/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote: 
    Hey, lighten up, dude...Poetry the magazine is doing a humor issue for July...



    http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/0705/comment_171212.html 



    How To Make a Killing from Poetry: A Six Point Plan of Attack 

    by Michael Lewis 


    _______________________________________________





  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 14 19:16:44 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:16:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Message-ID: <12e.61ebd430.30084c5c@aol.com>

Chris, like Kooser I have some appetite for straightforwardness
in poems. Though not as a steady diet. Like you I think his 
pre-emptive claim that this poem 'is what it is' is not provable
when the medium is poetic language of even the simplest
sort.

I'm not particularly drawn to this poem, but it has a gentle, appealing 
nostalgia about it. I think there are a few
places where the words certainly beg for some interpretive
reading: 'make us believers--...stationed in groups/
...looking into space' and that pressure that is put on 
the phrase 'bagging gold' at the end. The simplest of 
poems is fraught with possibilities...and, of course,
the paradox of a short, pared-down poem is that it may 
have more 'openings' to possible interpretations 
because of its use of understatement. 

I quibble with the 'too' at the end of this passage...
seems unnecessary to me...
"And how like a field is the whole sky now 
that the maples have shed their leaves, too. "

Finnegan

In a message dated 7/14/2005 3:36:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:
Ah, when somebody tells me that poems DON'T (are arent' suppossed to have) 
"hidden meanings,"
it makes me want to react as much as when someobody tells me poetry SHOULD 
have Hidden meanings. I mean, generally I think the half-baked "freudian-like" 
readings that many people still use when talking about poetry are silly, but 
what's up with this so-called "tractor"---huh?
and those "maples" without any leaves? Just the things in themselves, right? 

I personally still maintain the right to read a poem on a number of levels
(yeah, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, or sometimes it's, well....)
despite so-called authorial intention

C

----------
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2005, 11:13 AM




 
American Life in Poetry: Column 005

BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE

Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be 
discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle, but 
an experience. Here David Baker makes a gift to us through his deft 
description of an ordinary scene. Reading, we accept the experience of a poem and make 
it a part of our lives, just as we would take in the look of a mountain we 
passed on a trip. The poet's use of the words "we" and "neighbors" subtly 
underline the fact that all of us are members of the human community, much alike, 
facing the changing seasons together.

 


Neighbors in October 


All afternoon his tractor pulls a flat wagon 
with bales to the barn, then back to the waiting 
chopped field. It trails a feather of smoke. 
Down the block we bend with the season: 
shoes to polish for a big game, 
storm windows to batten or patch. 
And how like a field is the whole sky now 
that the maples have shed their leaves, too. 
It makes us believers ? stationed in groups, 
leaning on rakes, looking into space. We rub blisters 
over billows of leaf smoke. Or stand alone, 
bagging gold for the cold days to come. 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 14 19:30:36 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:30:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] report from festival with 2 CT people mentioned
Message-ID: <74.57ba5742.30084f9c@aol.com>

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:39:28 +0100
From:    mairead byrne <mairead.byrne at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: THERE'S MORE: SoundEye the Weekend 1

The spirit is ulta-willing but the Internet access is weak.

THE WEEKEND: SATURDAY

RICHARD DEMING & THINGS NOT WORK KEEPING
Matthew Geden was originally part of this program but postponed his
reading until Sunday to give more time to TNWK.  Richard is the first
to read.  Some of the things I think he says: "Nothing candles the
heart so much as loss."  Richard reads some "Murder Ballads" and a
poem about anger, noting that in New England culture anger,
perversely, can be a sign of privileged intimacy.

For a second I thought Charles Bernstein, sitting in front of me, had
a horrific thumbnail, set at an angle.  But then I realize it is a
Band-Aid.  I have a track record of mis-seeing.  Once I saw a
beautiful peacock at the side of the road.  When we drove back for
another look it turned out to be a wooden stake with a daub of red
paint on top.  I remember that stake so clearly, burnished and grimed
by handling (like my father's hammer) that I'm sure it looked nothing
like that.

Later, talking to Richard, I find he was an old friend of Tom Andrews,
who died very prematurely in July 2001.

TNWK's first piece is a web piece called "Silicon Fen," England's
equivalent to Silicon Valley.  I do not understand some basic elements
of this but liked seeing Kirsten and cris standing on the side of the
road with signs.  The second piece is a sound project, originally made
for radio, recorded at Coleridge Community School in Cambridge.  Every
member of the school reads a phrase of Coleridge's "Rime of the
Ancient Mariner."  The freshest element, for me, is some of the
children's voices, very beautiful.  Images of the recording scene
accompany the sound: again, it is lovely to see faces and sometimes
delirious smiles.  I liked to see Kirsten's face; I think she must
have sat close to the children and adults participating and encouraged
them, sometimes her expression mirrored theirs.  Simon Keep was
involved in the production also.

SUSAN HOWE & DAVID GRUBBS
Susan reads "Thoreau" and "Melville's Marginalia," sitting before a
slanted mike, alongside musician David Grubbs who plays a range of
instruments including piano.
There is also a piece about Mangan: "He was buried in Glasnevin
Cemetery.  Three persons were said to have followed his hearse to the
grave."  In the middle of the performance, a little girl comes
shuffling on her knees towards the audience, past Susan and David,
gesturing to her mother with her open palms that she wants her book.
The book is passed along to her but still she comes shuffling, and
curls at her mother's feet.  Susan's language is clear, her tone
communicative, yet I do not follow a lot of the reading.  It is
clearly expert, yet I am not.

Susan's last words:
"And on he rushed."

Then (in a low voice):
"That's it."

OFFICIAL WORLD PREMIERE OF THE UNMAKING BY WENDY MULFORD & MICHAEL PARSONS

Four performers (three readers and a violinist) participate in this,
making it one of the richest events in the Festival.  The piece
concerns the mid 19th century clearing of the Isle of Skye, and is
really an elegy for those who lost land, livelihood and life.  There
is some Scots-Gaelic, which I like.  I feel, especially at the
beginning, there is a good sense of silence and pacing.   The piece
uses found materials (witness reports and letters), which interests
me: it can be difficult when performers invest too much body/presence
when using found materials (Charles Reznikoff is a master of not doing
that): that's a real tension when using found materials in a
semi-theatrical piece.  Reznikoff also works (on the page) on quite a
small scale in relation to details, contradictions, and variousness.
A more theatrical presentation tends to flatten inherent enlivening
contradictions and inconsistencies.

Some notes:

"I was put in a small bothy.  I could take the snow in my hands as I
lay in my bed.  I lived thus eight years."

MAIREAD BYRNE & NATHANIEL MACKEY
I wasn't able to take notes at Mairead Byrne's reading so I'm
including a link to a poem she read:
http://www.leafepress.com/litter/byrne01.html. =20
Afterwards she something about realizing that it is as
counter-productive to over- as
it is to under-prepare.  Every reading is just a step on the way, I
say.  Poetry is a damned hard art.

Nathaniel Mackey took the floor and held it, a tall straight flower,
maybe a gladiolus, relaxed yet magesterial.  Here are some of the
things I think he said:

"I am a nervous traveler.  I was a Bedouin nomad in a previous life.=20
I sort of want to stay put in this one.  And then again the Middle
Passage came along and gave travel a bad name."

Some lines:

"In cement sky country
we ate cement soup."

"Operation Boast
Operation Lie"

Afterwards we went to Ford's (a local haberdashery) and then to
Trevor's to help him top & tail some green beans.  I worked alongside
Michael Smith and we had an incisive discussion on gender.  Another
great night.  The last.

ONE MORE REPORT TO GO!  SOUNDEYE SUNDAY!  COMPUTER MICE OF THE WEST
JUMP INTO MY HAND!  SPECIAL PRIZES HIDDEN IN FINAL BULLETIN!  MISS
THIS AT YOUR PERIL!

------------------------------

End of BRITISH-POETS Digest - 13 Jul 2005 to 14 Jul 2005 (#2005-181)
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 14 19:35:34 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:35:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] report from festival with 2 CT people mentioned
Message-ID: <111.4e1737c7.300850c6@aol.com>

Oops...I meant to send that direct too Dennis Barone...but it's fit for
this list too. Mairead Byrne has been sending dispatches from this 
festival/conference to the PoetryEtc list
Jim F
In a message dated 7/14/2005 7:31:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes:
Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:39:28 +0100
Subject: THERE'S MORE: SoundEye the Weekend 1
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 14 22:01:49 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:01:49 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Message-ID: <200507150038.j6F0cfvD158040@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

yep

----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2005, 3:16 PM


Chris, like Kooser I have some appetite for straightforwardness
in poems. Though not as a steady diet. Like you I think his
pre-emptive claim that this poem 'is what it is' is not provable
when the medium is poetic language of even the simplest
sort.

I'm not particularly drawn to this poem, but it has a gentle, appealing
nostalgia about it. I think there are a few
places where the words certainly beg for some interpretive
reading: 'make us believers--...stationed in groups/
...looking into space' and that pressure that is put on
the phrase 'bagging gold' at the end. The simplest of
poems is fraught with possibilities...and, of course,
the paradox of a short, pared-down poem is that it may
have more 'openings' to possible interpretations
because of its use of understatement.

I quibble with the 'too' at the end of this passage...
seems unnecessary to me...
"And how like a field is the whole sky now
that the maples have shed their leaves, too. "
Finnegan

In a message dated 7/14/2005 3:36:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:
Ah, when somebody tells me that poems DON'T (are arent' suppossed to have)
"hidden meanings,"
it makes me want to react as much as when someobody tells me poetry SHOULD
have Hidden meanings. I mean, generally I think the half-baked
"freudian-like" readings that many people still use when talking about
poetry are silly, but what's up with this so-called "tractor"---huh?
and those "maples" without any leaves? Just the things in themselves, right?

I personally still maintain the right to read a poem on a number of levels
(yeah, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, or sometimes it's, well....)
despite so-called authorial intention

C

----------
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2005, 11:13 AM




American Life in Poetry: Column 005

BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE

Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be
discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle,
but an experience. Here David Baker makes a gift to us through his deft
description of an ordinary scene. Reading, we accept the experience of a
poem and make it a part of our lives, just as we would take in the look of a
mountain we passed on a trip. The poet's use of the words "we" and
"neighbors" subtly underline the fact that all of us are members of the
human community, much alike, facing the changing seasons together.



Neighbors in October

All afternoon his tractor pulls a flat wagon
with bales to the barn, then back to the waiting
chopped field. It trails a feather of smoke.
Down the block we bend with the season:
shoes to polish for a big game,
storm windows to batten or patch.
And how like a field is the whole sky now
that the maples have shed their leaves, too.
It makes us believers ??? stationed in groups,
leaning on rakes, looking into space. We rub blisters
over billows of leaf smoke. Or stand alone,
bagging gold for the cold days to come.
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 14 22:02:13 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:02:13 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Message-ID: <200507150039.j6F0cfvF158040@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

bob---yes, of course...

----------
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2005, 12:41 PM



BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE

Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be
discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle,
but an experience.

Anyone besides me think that a rather absolutist statement?
What's wrong with SOME poems being PUZZLES as well
as "experiences?"  What's wrong with SOME poems requiring a reader to pry
out subtle meanings?  I think some of the poems Kooser has selected are
fairly good, but this
seems the worst he's picked.  A poem that's not puzzling enough is as bad as
a poem that's too puzzling.  (I know--NOW I'm being absolutist.  I would say
that I'm being so rather differently from Kooser, however.

--Bob G.
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul 14 21:21:26 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:21:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <200507150039.j6F0cfvF158040@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <00bc01c588db$88b277e0$45b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser

  bob---yes, of course...

  We said about the same thing this time, I think, Chris--I hadn't seen your response when I wrote mine.

  --Bob
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 14 21:36:37 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:36:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Message-ID: <d.482cd91e.30086d25@aol.com>

It is, Bob, but I would cut him a little more slack.
I'm sure (though I don't know the man from a fence
whole punched in the ground somewhere east of
Omaha) that Kooser has read and appreciated a good
deal difficult poetry.

I think a daily newspaper column like this needs a good
'thrust'...so I read this statement not as an absolute, but
as what he wanted to say today. I think it's fine to
carp at his statement...but I wouldn't think we should
take it as his gospel. 

Come to think about it, lists & blogss are little like 
these daily newspaper columns. Things get said that are
merely thinking out loud or casual provocations.
Finnegan

In a message dated 7/14/2005 4:42:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE

Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be 
discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle, but 
an experience.

Anyone besides me think that a rather absolutist statement?
What's wrong with SOME poems being PUZZLES as well
as "experiences?"  What's wrong with SOME poems requiring a reader to pry out 
subtle meanings?  I think some of the poems Kooser has selected are fairly 
good, but this
seems the worst he's picked.  A poem that's not puzzling enough is as bad as 
a poem that's too puzzling.  (I know--NOW I'm being absolutist.  I would say 
that I'm being so rather differently from Kooser, however.

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 14 21:50:09 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:50:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] PoetrySz 
Message-ID: <a0.2c6b8499.30087051@aol.com>


Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:48:08 -0700
From:    JT Chan <chan_jt at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: PoetrySz:demystifying mental illness Retrospective issue

PoetrySz:demystifying mental illness 5th year Retrospective issue is now 
online
at http://www.poetrysz.net.

Submissions for subsequent issues are welcome.  Send 3-6 poems in the body of
your email to poetrysz at yahoo.com . 

Thanks.

regards

J Chan
editor, PoetrySz
http://www.poetrysz.net
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 14 21:57:57 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:57:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
	TARPAULIN SKY READING AT COPAKE FALLS, NY, STATE PARK  
Message-ID: <df.17796c94.30087225@aol.com>

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:03:42 -0400
From:    "Editors, Tarpaulin Sky" <buffalost at TARPAULINSKY.COM>
Subject: Reminder: Poetry & Fiction in the Park - T Sky Summer Reading

[Note: Only four tent sites remain for Saturday night, should you want to
camp.]

TARPAULIN SKY READING AT COPAKE FALLS, NY, STATE PARK

Tarpaulin Sky will sponsor a poetry and fiction reading at Taconic State
Park at Copake Falls, NY, Saturday, July 16th, at 6PM. Featured readers
include Robyn Art, Barbara DeCesare, Elena Georgiou, Jeffrey Levine, Paul
McCormick, Christian Peet, Sasha Watson, and others. Celebrating the release
of Tarpaulin Sky Summer 2005, the publication's ninth issue, the event is
free and open to the community.

For more information, visit Tarpaulin Sky ( www.tarpaulinsky.com ) or email
camp05 at tarpaulinsky.com

Featured Readers:

Robyn Art's recent poems have appeared in Slope, The Hat, Conduit,
Slipstream, The New Delta Review, Rhino, and canwehaveourballback.com. She's
the author of the poetry manuscript, The Stunt Double In Winter, which was
selected as a Finalist for the 2004 Kore Press First Book Award. Her
chapbook, Degrees of Being There, was released by Boneworld Press in May
2003. A second chapbook, No Longer A Blonde, is forthcoming from Boneworld
Press in 2005. Currently she lives in Brooklyn.

Barbara DeCesare has a permit to carry a concealed weapon and is the Poet
Laureate of 8th biggest rock n' roll radio show in the nation at WIYY 97.9,
Baltimore. Her poems have found homes in Poetry, The Evansville Review,
Gargoyle, River Styx, Alaska Quarterly Review, and many other journals. Her
book of poems jigsaweyesore (Anti-Man Press 1999) was called "what thunder
looks like in writing" by The Baltimore Sun. Please visit her website for
audio samples and, if you can find the hidden link, a dirty photo.

Elena Georgiou is the author of Mercy Mercy Me and co-edited, with Michael
Lassell, the anthology The World in Us. She is the recipient of a New York
Foundation for the Arts poetry fellowship, Astraea Emerging Writers Award,
and Lambda Literary Award. Recent work appears in Bloom, The Cream City
Review, Gargoyle, Lumina, Spoon River Review and elsewhere. She lives in
Brooklyn and teaches poetry and creative writing at Hunter College in New
York and Goddard College in Vermont.

Jeffrey Levine is Editor-in-Chief of Tupelo Press and the author of
Sanctuaries and Mortal, Everlasting, winner of the 2000 Transcontinental
Poetry Award from Pavement Saw Press. His poems have won the Larry Levis
Prize from the Missouri Review, the first annual James Hearst Award from
North American Review, the 2001 Kestrel Prize and most recently, the 2001
Mississippi Review Poetry Award. His work appears in Ploughshares, Antioch
Review, Poetry International, Virginia Quarterly Review, Quarterly West,
Barrow Street, Yankee Magazine, and The Journal, among others.

Paul McCormick's recent work appears or is forthcoming in Conjunctions, The
Iowa Review, Verse, Fence, Conduit, Barrow Street, Word for/Word and
DIAGRAM.

Christian Peet's recent poetry and transgenre work  appears or is
forthcoming in Bird Dog, Drunken Boat, Fence, Parakeet, Pom2, Shampoo,
SleepingFish, Word For/Word, Unpleasant Event Schedule, and elsewhere. He
teaches at Brooklyn College, CUNY, and edits Tarpaulin Sky.

Sasha Watson is a writer, translator, and teacher based in New York. Her
poetry, translations, and reviews have appeared in Bird Dog, Common
Knowledge, Triquarterly, Bookslut, Nerve, and the Poetry Project Newsletter.
She is currently working on a Ph.D. in French literature at NYU.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 14 22:11:18 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:11:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jaspers on 'poetry'?
Message-ID: <1fe.59f570d.30087546@aol.com>

Philosophizing originates from life in the depths where it touches Eternity 
inside Time, not at the surface where it moves in finite purposes, even though 
the depths appear to us only at the surface.
 
--Karl Jaspers

Poetry originates from life in the depths where it touches Eternity inside 
Time, not at the surface where it moves in finite purposes, even though the 
depths appear to us only at the surface.
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu Jul 14 23:55:53 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:55:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
In-Reply-To: <d.482cd91e.30086d25@aol.com>
References: <d.482cd91e.30086d25@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1121399753.42d733c9b67b5@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

I'm all for straightforward poetry - I love flat anglosaxon words - but with a 
little more emotional complexity, a poem that, forgive me, works a little 
harder, pulls a bigger load a little farther and brings me to perhaps not a 
wider vista, but a DEEPER
 experience.  The whole thing here is so damn quick.  Bagging gold - gimme a 
break.  I'd like a little discovery - not a report.

grumpily leaning against her hoe, 

Jane Kerrigan Marie O'Keefe



Quoting JforJames at aol.com:

> It is, Bob, but I would cut him a little more slack.
> I'm sure (though I don't know the man from a fence
> whole punched in the ground somewhere east of
> Omaha) that Kooser has read and appreciated a good
> deal difficult poetry.
> 
> I think a daily newspaper column like this needs a good
> 'thrust'...so I read this statement not as an absolute, but
> as what he wanted to say today. I think it's fine to
> carp at his statement...but I wouldn't think we should
> take it as his gospel. 
> 
> Come to think about it, lists & blogss are little like 
> these daily newspaper columns. Things get said that are
> merely thinking out loud or casual provocations.
> Finnegan
> 
> In a message dated 7/14/2005 4:42:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
> 
> BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE
> 
> Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be 
> discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle,
> but 
> an experience.
> 
> Anyone besides me think that a rather absolutist statement?
> What's wrong with SOME poems being PUZZLES as well
> as "experiences?"  What's wrong with SOME poems requiring a reader to pry out
> 
> subtle meanings?  I think some of the poems Kooser has selected are fairly 
> good, but this
> seems the worst he's picked.  A poem that's not puzzling enough is as bad as
> 
> a poem that's too puzzling.  (I know--NOW I'm being absolutist.  I would say
> 
> that I'm being so rather differently from Kooser, however.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jul 15 07:52:36 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:52:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <d.482cd91e.30086d25@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c58933$b6b6fc30$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  It is, Bob, but I would cut him a little more slack.
  I'm sure (though I don't know the man from a fence
  whole punched in the ground somewhere east of
  Omaha) that Kooser has read and appreciated a good
  deal difficult poetry.

  I agree that I'm less tolerant of him because of his position than I'd be if he were just a contributor to New-Poetry, James.  Still, why couldn't he have simply said that a poem need not be a puzzle or difficult to be good?  And why couldn't he once in a while discuss a difficult poem in such a way as to get an average newspaper reader PERHAPS to enjoy it, or at least see that it isn't a hoax?

  You know, I think one problem with his campaign is that all he's doing is trying to get people to read poems for the reasons that they read the Reader's Digest.  Why should they take the trouble to find a poetry book to read when they can subscribe to the Reader's digest?  He should be trying to show what poetry can uniquely do.  He isn't.  He's pushing the neatly-described scene or anecdote.

  --Bob G.
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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 08:51:14 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:51:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
In-Reply-To: <002e01c58933$b6b6fc30$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <d.482cd91e.30086d25@aol.com>
	<002e01c58933$b6b6fc30$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <33abf27505071505512a63f50b@mail.gmail.com>

My problem with Kooser's quest to bring poetry to the common man (and yes, 
I'm being sardonic) is that he's only serving up common poetry. They're all 
short of course--they need to be for a paper, I have no problem with that. 
But all of his choices seem to be so... bland. They're simple poems, they 
center on a fairly easy-to-grasp image or theme, there's nothing complex 
about the language or the emotion. This would be fine on occasion, but I 
disagree with him that he's choosing *only* these short, simple, 
typical-American-life poems. He should be pulling the widest range possible, 
showing the average non-poetry-reading American that poetry can be 
wide-ranging, contemporary, enjoyable. He should be picking a poem that 
makes you laugh out loud, a poem that makes you sympathize with the 
persona's sadness or nostalgia, a poem that makes you stop and think. He 
should have a poem with some difficult language or a puzzling theme for 
every two that are "simple" to understand. In short, he should be selling 
the wide variety of poetry to the non-poetry crowd. He needs to make people 
stop and say "Wow, I didn't know poetry could do that."
 Instead, he's picking all of these nice, simple, unassuming, unchallenging 
(emotionally as well as language-wise) poems. Basically, he's proving the 
non-poetry crowd right: Yep, this is all poetry has to offer, it's nice in 
its way, but basically worthless, so scan through it and shrug and move on 
to the funnies. The crosswords, the cryptograms, even the chess and bridge 
games have a wider range of challenging-to-easy than his poem choices do.
 THAT is my problem with Kooser's column. He talks too much in his intros, 
yes, and he oversimplifies and overexplains instead of letting the poem do 
the work. I agree with Tad there--it sounds like a bad 6th grade reader 
lesson. But that's not the worst of it. I admire and support his efforts to 
bring poetry to everyone. But I think he's really selling poetry short, and 
it bothers me. For comparison, look at the other thread we had here about 
the poetry mix tape. Lump all the suggestions together and take a random 
sample of 5, and you'll have a wonderful range of what poetry can do--you 
laugh, you cry, you nod in sympathy or understanding, you can even get 
angry, but each one evokes emotion. Take all of Kooser's choices together 
and pick a random handful, and they all sound the same--and they all invoke, 
for me at least, the same thought: "Oh. That's nice. Hey, I wonder who won 
the game last night."
   
 On 7/15/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 
> 
> 
>   It is, Bob, but I would cut him a little more slack.
> I'm sure (though I don't know the man from a fence
> whole punched in the ground somewhere east of
> Omaha) that Kooser has read and appreciated a good
> deal difficult poetry.
>  I agree that I'm less tolerant of him because of his position than I'd be 
> if he were just a contributor to New-Poetry, James. Still, why couldn't he 
> have simply said that a poem need not be a puzzle or difficult to be good? 
> And why couldn't he once in a while discuss a difficult poem in such a way 
> as to get an average newspaper reader PERHAPS to enjoy it, or at least see 
> that it isn't a hoax?
>  You know, I think one problem with his campaign is that all he's doing is 
> trying to get people to read poems for the reasons that they read the 
> Reader's Digest. Why should they take the trouble to find a poetry book to 
> read when they can subscribe to the Reader's digest? He should be trying to 
> show what poetry can uniquely do. He isn't. He's pushing the 
> neatly-described scene or anecdote.
>  --Bob G.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jul 15 08:57:54 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:57:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <d.482cd91e.30086d25@aol.com><002e01c58933$b6b6fc30$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<33abf27505071505512a63f50b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005801c5893c$d58ce170$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I think that's about enough, Donna.  I don't mind your being my apprentice, but outdoing the master is not allowed.

Robert

My problem with Kooser's quest to bring poetry to the common man (and yes, I'm being sardonic) is that he's only serving up common poetry. They're all short of course--they need to be for a paper, I have no problem with that. But all of his choices seem to be so... bland. They're simple poems, they center on a fairly easy-to-grasp image or theme, there's nothing complex about the language or the emotion. This would be fine on occasion, but I disagree with him that he's choosing *only* these short, simple, typical-American-life poems. He should be pulling the widest range possible, showing the average non-poetry-reading American that poetry can be wide-ranging, contemporary, enjoyable. He should be picking a poem that makes you laugh out loud, a poem that makes you sympathize with the persona's sadness or nostalgia, a poem that makes you stop and think. He should have a poem with some difficult language or a puzzling theme for every two that are "simple" to understand. In short, he should be selling the wide variety of poetry to the non-poetry crowd. He needs to make people stop and say "Wow, I didn't know poetry could do that." 

  Instead, he's picking all of these nice, simple, unassuming, unchallenging (emotionally as well as language-wise) poems. Basically, he's proving the non-poetry crowd right: Yep, this is all poetry has to offer, it's nice in its way, but basically worthless, so scan through it and shrug and move on to the funnies. The crosswords, the cryptograms, even the chess and bridge games have a wider range of challenging-to-easy than his poem choices do. 

  THAT is my problem with Kooser's column. He talks too much in his intros, yes, and he oversimplifies and overexplains instead of letting the poem do the work. I agree with Tad there--it sounds like a bad 6th grade reader lesson. But that's not the worst of it. I admire and support his efforts to bring poetry to everyone. But I think he's really selling poetry short, and it bothers me. For comparison, look at the other thread we had here about the poetry mix tape. Lump all the suggestions together and take a random sample of 5, and you'll have a wonderful range of what poetry can do--you laugh, you cry, you nod in sympathy or understanding, you can even get angry, but each one evokes emotion. Take all of Kooser's choices together and pick a random handful, and they all sound the same--and they all invoke, for me at least, the same thought: "Oh. That's nice. Hey, I wonder who won the game last night." 




   
  On 7/15/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 

     
      It is, Bob, but I would cut him a little more slack.
      I'm sure (though I don't know the man from a fence
      whole punched in the ground somewhere east of
      Omaha) that Kooser has read and appreciated a good
      deal difficult poetry.

      I agree that I'm less tolerant of him because of his position than I'd be if he were just a contributor to New-Poetry, James.  Still, why couldn't he have simply said that a poem need not be a puzzle or difficult to be good?  And why couldn't he once in a while discuss a difficult poem in such a way as to get an average newspaper reader PERHAPS to enjoy it, or at least see that it isn't a hoax? 

      You know, I think one problem with his campaign is that all he's doing is trying to get people to read poems for the reasons that they read the Reader's Digest.  Why should they take the trouble to find a poetry book to read when they can subscribe to the Reader's digest?  He should be trying to show what poetry can uniquely do.  He isn't.  He's pushing the neatly-described scene or anecdote. 

      --Bob G.

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






  -- 
  -------------------------------------------------
  Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't.  --Macbeth I:v



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From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Jul 15 10:56:10 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:56:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <200507150039.j6F0cfvF158040@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <011601c5894d$56faa0c0$59099942@Helen>

Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by KooserThe average reading level in this country has slipped in the last few years from age twelve to age 10.  Do you really
think this audience of newspaper readers will puzzle out meaning in a poem?  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Stroffolino 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 10:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser


  bob---yes, of course...

  ----------
  From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
  To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
  Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2005, 12:41 PM




      BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE

      Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle, but an experience.
       
      Anyone besides me think that a rather absolutist statement?
      What's wrong with SOME poems being PUZZLES as well
      as "experiences?"  What's wrong with SOME poems requiring a reader to pry out subtle meanings?  I think some of the poems Kooser has selected are fairly good, but this
      seems the worst he's picked.  A poem that's not puzzling enough is as bad as a poem that's too puzzling.  (I know--NOW I'm being absolutist.  I would say that I'm being so rather differently from Kooser, however.
       
      --Bob G.

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 11:22:47 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:22:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
In-Reply-To: <011601c5894d$56faa0c0$59099942@Helen>
References: <200507150039.j6F0cfvF158040@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
	<011601c5894d$56faa0c0$59099942@Helen>
Message-ID: <33abf275050715082253261280@mail.gmail.com>

See, this is the kind of response that depresses me. This is why I said, 
when this topic first came up, that I don't think Kooser gives the 
newspaper-reading public enough credit. I don't think the newspapers 
themselves give their readers enough credit.
 It's not just people reading on low levels that shun poetry. The majority 
of high school graduates--hell, college graduates--shun poetry. It's 
worthless to them. They don't see a point to wasting their time with it. I'm 
not asking that Kooser throw Spenser or Coleridge or Keats at them. I just 
want to see more variety and more emotion in his selections. If a person is 
interested by something, regardless of their reading level, they're willing 
to work a bit harder to understand it. Notice I said "a bit". It doesn't 
have to be impossible to understand. A couple of polysyllabic words aren't 
going to kill off readers. Making it too easy for them all the time turns 
them off too.
 And isn't it a shame for this country that the reading level *has* slipped 
this low? Instead of catering to the downward spiral, shouldn't we as a 
culture be working to improve this? Shouldn't the writers, the poets, the 
journalists, even the songwriters be working to elevate the nation's reading 
and vocabulary levels one little step at a time, rather than kowtowing to 
the downward trend?
 

 On 7/15/05, Helen Ruggieri <hruggier at localnet.com> wrote: 
> 
> The average reading level in this country has slipped in the last few 
> years from age twelve to age 10. Do you really
> think this audience of newspaper readers will puzzle out meaning in a 
> poem? 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> *From:* Chris Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2005 10:02 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
> 
> bob---yes, of course...
> 
> ----------
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" <
> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
> Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2005, 12:41 PM
> 
> 
>  
> BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE
> 
> Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be 
> discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle, 
> but an experience.
> 
> Anyone besides me think that a rather absolutist statement?
> What's wrong with SOME poems being PUZZLES as well
> as "experiences?" What's wrong with SOME poems requiring a reader to pry 
> out subtle meanings? I think some of the poems Kooser has selected are 
> fairly good, but this
> seems the worst he's picked. A poem that's not puzzling enough is as bad 
> as a poem that's too puzzling. (I know--NOW I'm being absolutist. I would 
> say that I'm being so rather differently from Kooser, however.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> *New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> *
> 
>  ------------------------------
>  
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> ------------------------------
> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and 
> corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from 
> www.choicemailfree.com <http://www.choicemailfree.com/>. 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 15 12:56:10 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:56:10 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Message-ID: <200507151533.j6FFX1X8297790@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

Donna---this is really great. Could I run it in my syndicated newspaper 
column? (oops, that's right, i forgot to own a chain of papers....) Well, at
least my bloggedy bloggedy?

C

----------
From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2005, 4:51 AM


My problem with Kooser's quest to bring poetry to the common man (and yes,
I'm being sardonic) is that he's only serving up common poetry. They're all
short of course--they need to be for a paper, I have no problem with that.
But all of his choices seem to be so... bland. They're simple poems, they
center on a fairly easy-to-grasp image or theme, there's nothing complex
about the language or the emotion. This would be fine on occasion, but I
disagree with him that he's choosing *only* these short, simple,
typical-American-life poems. He should be pulling the widest range possible,
showing the average non-poetry-reading American that poetry can be
wide-ranging, contemporary, enjoyable. He should be picking a poem that
makes you laugh out loud, a poem that makes you sympathize with the
persona's sadness or nostalgia, a poem that makes you stop and think. He
should have a poem with some difficult language or a puzzling theme for
every two that are "simple" to understand. In short, he should be selling
the wide variety of poetry to the non-poetry crowd. He needs to make people
stop and say "Wow, I didn't know poetry could do that."

Instead, he's picking all of these nice, simple, unassuming, unchallenging
(emotionally as well as language-wise) poems. Basically, he's proving the
non-poetry crowd right: Yep, this is all poetry has to offer, it's nice in
its way, but basically worthless, so scan through it and shrug and move on
to the funnies. The crosswords, the cryptograms, even the chess and bridge
games have a wider range of challenging-to-easy than his poem choices do.

THAT is my problem with Kooser's column. He talks too much in his intros,
yes, and he oversimplifies and overexplains instead of letting the poem do
the work. I agree with Tad there--it sounds like a bad 6th grade reader
lesson. But that's not the worst of it. I admire and support his efforts to
bring poetry to everyone. But I think he's really selling poetry short, and
it bothers me. For comparison, look at the other thread we had here about
the poetry mix tape. Lump all the suggestions together and take a random
sample of 5, and you'll have a wonderful range of what poetry can do--you
laugh, you cry, you nod in sympathy or understanding, you can even get
angry, but each one evokes emotion. Take all of Kooser's choices together
and pick a random handful, and they all sound the same--and they all invoke,
for me at least, the same thought: "Oh. That's nice. Hey, I wonder who won
the game last night."





On 7/15/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net
<mailto:bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> > wrote:


It is, Bob, but I would cut him a little more slack.
I'm sure (though I don't know the man from a fence
whole punched in the ground somewhere east of
Omaha) that Kooser has read and appreciated a good
deal difficult poetry.

I agree that I'm less tolerant of him because of his position than I'd be if
he were just a contributor to New-Poetry, James.  Still, why couldn't he
have simply said that a poem need not be a puzzle or difficult to be good?
And why couldn't he once in a while discuss a difficult poem in such a way
as to get an average newspaper reader PERHAPS to enjoy it, or at least see
that it isn't a hoax?

You know, I think one problem with his campaign is that all he's doing is
trying to get people to read poems for the reasons that they read the
Reader's Digest.  Why should they take the trouble to find a poetry book to
read when they can subscribe to the Reader's digest?  He should be trying to
show what poetry can uniquely do.  He isn't.  He's pushing the
neatly-described scene or anecdote.

--Bob G.

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't.  --Macbeth I:v
_______________________________________________
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From tad at opus40.org  Fri Jul 15 11:35:30 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:35:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <200507150039.j6F0cfvF158040@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
	<011601c5894d$56faa0c0$59099942@Helen>
Message-ID: <001801c58952$d7fa8410$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by KooserNot everyone reads every section of a newspaper. You'd kinda hope that the people who read the book review section, or at least some of them, would look at this column. Garrison Keillor doesn't design his show so that Opie and Anthony's listeners will get all the references.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Helen Ruggieri 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 10:56 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser


  The average reading level in this country has slipped in the last few years from age twelve to age 10.  Do you really
  think this audience of newspaper readers will puzzle out meaning in a poem?  
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Chris Stroffolino 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
    Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 10:02 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser


    bob---yes, of course...

    ----------
    From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
    To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
    Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2005, 12:41 PM




        BY TED KOOSER, U.S. POET LAUREATE

        Though many of us were taught that poems have hidden meanings that must be discovered and pried out like the meat from walnuts, a poem is not a puzzle, but an experience.
         
        Anyone besides me think that a rather absolutist statement?
        What's wrong with SOME poems being PUZZLES as well
        as "experiences?"  What's wrong with SOME poems requiring a reader to pry out subtle meanings?  I think some of the poems Kooser has selected are fairly good, but this
        seems the worst he's picked.  A poem that's not puzzling enough is as bad as a poem that's too puzzling.  (I know--NOW I'm being absolutist.  I would say that I'm being so rather differently from Kooser, however.
         
        --Bob G.

      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





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From tad at opus40.org  Fri Jul 15 11:36:33 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:36:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <200507151533.j6FFX1X8297790@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <002e01c58952$fdaacd00$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by KooserAgreed. Thumbs up for Donna. I may reference in my bloggedy bloggedy too.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Stroffolino 
  To: Donna Casinghino ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 12:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser


  Donna---this is really great. Could I run it in my syndicated newspaper column? (oops, that's right, i forgot to own a chain of papers....) Well, at least my bloggedy bloggedy?

  C

  ----------
  From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
  To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
  Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2005, 4:51 AM



    My problem with Kooser's quest to bring poetry to the common man (and yes, I'm being sardonic) is that he's only serving up common poetry. They're all short of course--they need to be for a paper, I have no problem with that. But all of his choices seem to be so... bland. They're simple poems, they center on a fairly easy-to-grasp image or theme, there's nothing complex about the language or the emotion. This would be fine on occasion, but I disagree with him that he's choosing *only* these short, simple, typical-American-life poems. He should be pulling the widest range possible, showing the average non-poetry-reading American that poetry can be wide-ranging, contemporary, enjoyable. He should be picking a poem that makes you laugh out loud, a poem that makes you sympathize with the persona's sadness or nostalgia, a poem that makes you stop and think. He should have a poem with some difficult language or a puzzling theme for every two that are "simple" to understand. In short, he should be selling the wide variety of poetry to the non-poetry crowd. He needs to make people stop and say "Wow, I didn't know poetry could do that." 
     
    Instead, he's picking all of these nice, simple, unassuming, unchallenging (emotionally as well as language-wise) poems. Basically, he's proving the non-poetry crowd right: Yep, this is all poetry has to offer, it's nice in its way, but basically worthless, so scan through it and shrug and move on to the funnies. The crosswords, the cryptograms, even the chess and bridge games have a wider range of challenging-to-easy than his poem choices do. 
     
    THAT is my problem with Kooser's column. He talks too much in his intros, yes, and he oversimplifies and overexplains instead of letting the poem do the work. I agree with Tad there--it sounds like a bad 6th grade reader lesson. But that's not the worst of it. I admire and support his efforts to bring poetry to everyone. But I think he's really selling poetry short, and it bothers me. For comparison, look at the other thread we had here about the poetry mix tape. Lump all the suggestions together and take a random sample of 5, and you'll have a wonderful range of what poetry can do--you laugh, you cry, you nod in sympathy or understanding, you can even get angry, but each one evokes emotion. Take all of Kooser's choices together and pick a random handful, and they all sound the same--and they all invoke, for me at least, the same thought: "Oh. That's nice. Hey, I wonder who won the game last night." 
     
     
     

     
    On 7/15/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net <mailto:bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> > wrote: 


       

        It is, Bob, but I would cut him a little more slack.
        I'm sure (though I don't know the man from a fence
        whole punched in the ground somewhere east of
        Omaha) that Kooser has read and appreciated a good
        deal difficult poetry.
         
        I agree that I'm less tolerant of him because of his position than I'd be if he were just a contributor to New-Poetry, James.  Still, why couldn't he have simply said that a poem need not be a puzzle or difficult to be good?  And why couldn't he once in a while discuss a difficult poem in such a way as to get an average newspaper reader PERHAPS to enjoy it, or at least see that it isn't a hoax? 
         
        You know, I think one problem with his campaign is that all he's doing is trying to get people to read poems for the reasons that they read the Reader's Digest.  Why should they take the trouble to find a poetry book to read when they can subscribe to the Reader's digest?  He should be trying to show what poetry can uniquely do.  He isn't.  He's pushing the neatly-described scene or anecdote. 
         
        --Bob G.


      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






    -- 
    -------------------------------------------------
    Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't.  --Macbeth I:v
    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad at opus40.org  Fri Jul 15 11:37:08 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:37:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <200507151533.j6FFX1X8297790@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <003801c58953$12b85b90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by KooserOh, and by the way - the Mets won.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Stroffolino 
  To: Donna Casinghino ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 12:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser


  Donna---this is really great. Could I run it in my syndicated newspaper column? (oops, that's right, i forgot to own a chain of papers....) Well, at least my bloggedy bloggedy?

  C

  ----------
  From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
  To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
  Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2005, 4:51 AM



    My problem with Kooser's quest to bring poetry to the common man (and yes, I'm being sardonic) is that he's only serving up common poetry. They're all short of course--they need to be for a paper, I have no problem with that. But all of his choices seem to be so... bland. They're simple poems, they center on a fairly easy-to-grasp image or theme, there's nothing complex about the language or the emotion. This would be fine on occasion, but I disagree with him that he's choosing *only* these short, simple, typical-American-life poems. He should be pulling the widest range possible, showing the average non-poetry-reading American that poetry can be wide-ranging, contemporary, enjoyable. He should be picking a poem that makes you laugh out loud, a poem that makes you sympathize with the persona's sadness or nostalgia, a poem that makes you stop and think. He should have a poem with some difficult language or a puzzling theme for every two that are "simple" to understand. In short, he should be selling the wide variety of poetry to the non-poetry crowd. He needs to make people stop and say "Wow, I didn't know poetry could do that." 
     
    Instead, he's picking all of these nice, simple, unassuming, unchallenging (emotionally as well as language-wise) poems. Basically, he's proving the non-poetry crowd right: Yep, this is all poetry has to offer, it's nice in its way, but basically worthless, so scan through it and shrug and move on to the funnies. The crosswords, the cryptograms, even the chess and bridge games have a wider range of challenging-to-easy than his poem choices do. 
     
    THAT is my problem with Kooser's column. He talks too much in his intros, yes, and he oversimplifies and overexplains instead of letting the poem do the work. I agree with Tad there--it sounds like a bad 6th grade reader lesson. But that's not the worst of it. I admire and support his efforts to bring poetry to everyone. But I think he's really selling poetry short, and it bothers me. For comparison, look at the other thread we had here about the poetry mix tape. Lump all the suggestions together and take a random sample of 5, and you'll have a wonderful range of what poetry can do--you laugh, you cry, you nod in sympathy or understanding, you can even get angry, but each one evokes emotion. Take all of Kooser's choices together and pick a random handful, and they all sound the same--and they all invoke, for me at least, the same thought: "Oh. That's nice. Hey, I wonder who won the game last night." 
     
     
     

     
    On 7/15/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net <mailto:bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> > wrote: 


       

        It is, Bob, but I would cut him a little more slack.
        I'm sure (though I don't know the man from a fence
        whole punched in the ground somewhere east of
        Omaha) that Kooser has read and appreciated a good
        deal difficult poetry.
         
        I agree that I'm less tolerant of him because of his position than I'd be if he were just a contributor to New-Poetry, James.  Still, why couldn't he have simply said that a poem need not be a puzzle or difficult to be good?  And why couldn't he once in a while discuss a difficult poem in such a way as to get an average newspaper reader PERHAPS to enjoy it, or at least see that it isn't a hoax? 
         
        You know, I think one problem with his campaign is that all he's doing is trying to get people to read poems for the reasons that they read the Reader's Digest.  Why should they take the trouble to find a poetry book to read when they can subscribe to the Reader's digest?  He should be trying to show what poetry can uniquely do.  He isn't.  He's pushing the neatly-described scene or anecdote. 
         
        --Bob G.


      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






    -- 
    -------------------------------------------------
    Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't.  --Macbeth I:v
    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 11:38:47 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:38:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
In-Reply-To: <200507151533.j6FFX1X8297790@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200507151533.j6FFX1X8297790@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <33abf27505071508386dd910e5@mail.gmail.com>

Chris: Sure, take my rant and go with god. I'm honored I've made the list of 
your source material. :)


 On 7/15/05, Chris Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote: 
> 
> Donna---this is really great. Could I run it in my syndicated newspaper 
> column? (oops, that's right, i forgot to own a chain of papers....) Well, at 
> least my bloggedy bloggedy?
> 
> C
> 
> ----------
> From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" <
> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
> Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2005, 4:51 AM
> 
> 
> My problem with Kooser's quest to bring poetry to the common man (and yes, 
> I'm being sardonic) is that he's only serving up common poetry. They're all 
> short of course--they need to be for a paper, I have no problem with that. 
> But all of his choices seem to be so... bland. They're simple poems, they 
> center on a fairly easy-to-grasp image or theme, there's nothing complex 
> about the language or the emotion. This would be fine on occasion, but I 
> disagree with him that he's choosing *only* these short, simple, 
> typical-American-life poems. He should be pulling the widest range possible, 
> showing the average non-poetry-reading American that poetry can be 
> wide-ranging, contemporary, enjoyable. He should be picking a poem that 
> makes you laugh out loud, a poem that makes you sympathize with the 
> persona's sadness or nostalgia, a poem that makes you stop and think. He 
> should have a poem with some difficult language or a puzzling theme for 
> every two that are "simple" to understand. In short, he should be selling 
> the wide variety of poetry to the non-poetry crowd. He needs to make people 
> stop and say "Wow, I didn't know poetry could do that." 
> 
> Instead, he's picking all of these nice, simple, unassuming, unchallenging 
> (emotionally as well as language-wise) poems. Basically, he's proving the 
> non-poetry crowd right: Yep, this is all poetry has to offer, it's nice in 
> its way, but basically worthless, so scan through it and shrug and move on 
> to the funnies. The crosswords, the cryptograms, even the chess and bridge 
> games have a wider range of challenging-to-easy than his poem choices do. 
> 
> THAT is my problem with Kooser's column. He talks too much in his intros, 
> yes, and he oversimplifies and overexplains instead of letting the poem do 
> the work. I agree with Tad there--it sounds like a bad 6th grade reader 
> lesson. But that's not the worst of it. I admire and support his efforts to 
> bring poetry to everyone. But I think he's really selling poetry short, and 
> it bothers me. For comparison, look at the other thread we had here about 
> the poetry mix tape. Lump all the suggestions together and take a random 
> sample of 5, and you'll have a wonderful range of what poetry can do--you 
> laugh, you cry, you nod in sympathy or understanding, you can even get 
> angry, but each one evokes emotion. Take all of Kooser's choices together 
> and pick a random handful, and they all sound the same--and they all invoke, 
> for me at least, the same thought: "Oh. That's nice. Hey, I wonder who won 
> the game last night." 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/15/05, *Bob Grumman* <*bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net* <*mailto:
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net*> > wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> It is, Bob, but I would cut him a little more slack.
> I'm sure (though I don't know the man from a fence
> whole punched in the ground somewhere east of
> Omaha) that Kooser has read and appreciated a good
> deal difficult poetry.
> 
> I agree that I'm less tolerant of him because of his position than I'd be 
> if he were just a contributor to New-Poetry, James. Still, why couldn't he 
> have simply said that a poem need not be a puzzle or difficult to be good? 
> And why couldn't he once in a while discuss a difficult poem in such a way 
> as to get an average newspaper reader PERHAPS to enjoy it, or at least see 
> that it isn't a hoax? 
> 
> You know, I think one problem with his campaign is that all he's doing is 
> trying to get people to read poems for the reasons that they read the 
> Reader's Digest. Why should they take the trouble to find a poetry book to 
> read when they can subscribe to the Reader's digest? He should be trying to 
> show what poetry can uniquely do. He isn't. He's pushing the 
> neatly-described scene or anecdote. 
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> *New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu* <*mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu*> 
> *http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------
> Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> *New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> *
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 11:59:22 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:59:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
In-Reply-To: <001801c58952$d7fa8410$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <200507150039.j6F0cfvF158040@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
	<011601c5894d$56faa0c0$59099942@Helen>
	<001801c58952$d7fa8410$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <33abf27505071508595c9e3ebd@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/15/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote: 
 
> Not everyone reads every section of a newspaper. You'd kinda hope that the 
> people who read the book review section, or at least some of them, would 
> look at this column. Garrison Keillor doesn't design his show so that Opie 
> and Anthony's listeners will get all the references.
> 


Exactly, and more succinctly, the point I'm trying to make. Thanks, Tad. I 
think taking your audience's intelligence (or its assumed lack thereof) for 
granted is a dangerous thing.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jul 15 12:19:18 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:19:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <200507150039.j6F0cfvF158040@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
	<011601c5894d$56faa0c0$59099942@Helen>
Message-ID: <00b601c58958$f4483f30$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser

  The average reading level in this country has slipped in the last few years from age twelve to age 10.  Do you really
  think this audience of newspaper readers will puzzle out meaning in a poem? --Helen R.

  (1) Some certainly will--many papers have bridge and chess columns, for instance, and some comic strips are fairly sophisticated.

  (2) I would want Kooser or whoever is presenting poems to a newspaper audience to help them, and I think this can be done.  I myself have helped ten-year-olds understand poems I can't get certain professors who post to New-Poetry to understand.  It can be done--though doing it on paper rather than in person has to be harder.

  I think the main problem is the middle-men--newspaper editors who would never let better material than Kooser's in the door, and wouldn't even use Kooser's if it weren't free, and he weren't Poet Laureate.

  Harumph, I now see my former apprentice, Donna, has beaten me to the punch, again.  But I have to make my quota of posts that insult stasguards, so will post this, anyway.

  --Bob G.
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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 12:23:50 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:23:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
In-Reply-To: <003801c58953$12b85b90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <200507151533.j6FFX1X8297790@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
	<003801c58953$12b85b90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <33abf27505071509235c29b68a@mail.gmail.com>

So did the Yankees. 

On 7/15/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
> 
> Oh, and by the way - the Mets won.
>   Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> *From:* Chris Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
> *To:* Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com> ; NewPoetry: Contemporary 
> Poetry News &amp; Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2005 12:56 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
> 
> Donna---this is really great. Could I run it in my syndicated newspaper 
> column? (oops, that's right, i forgot to own a chain of papers....) Well, at 
> least my bloggedy bloggedy?
> 
> C
> 
> ----------
> From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" <
> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
> Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2005, 4:51 AM
> 
> 
> My problem with Kooser's quest to bring poetry to the common man (and yes, 
> I'm being sardonic) is that he's only serving up common poetry. They're all 
> short of course--they need to be for a paper, I have no problem with that. 
> But all of his choices seem to be so... bland. They're simple poems, they 
> center on a fairly easy-to-grasp image or theme, there's nothing complex 
> about the language or the emotion. This would be fine on occasion, but I 
> disagree with him that he's choosing *only* these short, simple, 
> typical-American-life poems. He should be pulling the widest range possible, 
> showing the average non-poetry-reading American that poetry can be 
> wide-ranging, contemporary, enjoyable. He should be picking a poem that 
> makes you laugh out loud, a poem that makes you sympathize with the 
> persona's sadness or nostalgia, a poem that makes you stop and think. He 
> should have a poem with some difficult language or a puzzling theme for 
> every two that are "simple" to understand. In short, he should be selling 
> the wide variety of poetry to the non-poetry crowd. He needs to make people 
> stop and say "Wow, I didn't know poetry could do that." 
> 
> Instead, he's picking all of these nice, simple, unassuming, unchallenging 
> (emotionally as well as language-wise) poems. Basically, he's proving the 
> non-poetry crowd right: Yep, this is all poetry has to offer, it's nice in 
> its way, but basically worthless, so scan through it and shrug and move on 
> to the funnies. The crosswords, the cryptograms, even the chess and bridge 
> games have a wider range of challenging-to-easy than his poem choices do. 
> 
> THAT is my problem with Kooser's column. He talks too much in his intros, 
> yes, and he oversimplifies and overexplains instead of letting the poem do 
> the work. I agree with Tad there--it sounds like a bad 6th grade reader 
> lesson. But that's not the worst of it. I admire and support his efforts to 
> bring poetry to everyone. But I think he's really selling poetry short, and 
> it bothers me. For comparison, look at the other thread we had here about 
> the poetry mix tape. Lump all the suggestions together and take a random 
> sample of 5, and you'll have a wonderful range of what poetry can do--you 
> laugh, you cry, you nod in sympathy or understanding, you can even get 
> angry, but each one evokes emotion. Take all of Kooser's choices together 
> and pick a random handful, and they all sound the same--and they all invoke, 
> for me at least, the same thought: "Oh. That's nice. Hey, I wonder who won 
> the game last night." 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/15/05, *Bob Grumman* <*bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net* <*mailto:
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net*> > wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> It is, Bob, but I would cut him a little more slack.
> I'm sure (though I don't know the man from a fence
> whole punched in the ground somewhere east of
> Omaha) that Kooser has read and appreciated a good
> deal difficult poetry.
> 
> I agree that I'm less tolerant of him because of his position than I'd be 
> if he were just a contributor to New-Poetry, James. Still, why couldn't he 
> have simply said that a poem need not be a puzzle or difficult to be good? 
> And why couldn't he once in a while discuss a difficult poem in such a way 
> as to get an average newspaper reader PERHAPS to enjoy it, or at least see 
> that it isn't a hoax? 
> 
> You know, I think one problem with his campaign is that all he's doing is 
> trying to get people to read poems for the reasons that they read the 
> Reader's Digest. Why should they take the trouble to find a poetry book to 
> read when they can subscribe to the Reader's digest? He should be trying to 
> show what poetry can uniquely do. He isn't. He's pushing the 
> neatly-described scene or anecdote. 
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> *New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu* <*mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu*> 
> *http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------
> Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> *New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> *
> 
>  ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 16:00:28 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:00:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
In-Reply-To: <00b601c58958$f4483f30$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <200507150039.j6F0cfvF158040@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
	<011601c5894d$56faa0c0$59099942@Helen>
	<00b601c58958$f4483f30$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <33abf27505071513001dee0840@mail.gmail.com>

See Bob? One can be colicky without being ad hominem. :)
 Love, T.S.

 On 7/15/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 
> 
> 
>  The average reading level in this country has slipped in the last few 
> years from age twelve to age 10. Do you really
> think this audience of newspaper readers will puzzle out meaning in a 
> poem? --Helen R.
>  (1) Some certainly will--many papers have bridge and chess columns, for 
> instance, and some comic strips are fairly sophisticated.
>  (2) I would want Kooser or whoever is presenting poems to a newspaper 
> audience to help them, and I think this can be done. I myself have helped 
> ten-year-olds understand poems I can't get certain professors who post to 
> New-Poetry to understand. It can be done--though doing it on paper rather 
> than in person has to be harder.
>  I think the main problem is the middle-men--newspaper editors who would 
> never let better material than Kooser's in the door, and wouldn't even use 
> Kooser's if it weren't free, and he weren't Poet Laureate.
>  Harumph, I now see my former apprentice, Donna, has beaten me to the 
> punch, again. But I have to make my quota of posts that insult stasguards, 
> so will post this, anyway.
>  --Bob G.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jul 15 17:04:48 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:04:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Baker chosen by Kooser
References: <200507150039.j6F0cfvF158040@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net><011601c5894d$56faa0c0$59099942@Helen><00b601c58958$f4483f30$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<33abf27505071513001dee0840@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012001c58980$d69ab710$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

See Bob? One can be colicky without being ad hominem. :)

What fun's that, you m-r-n?!

--Bob 

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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sat Jul 16 10:37:41 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:37:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Richard Newman
Message-ID: <731bb17a05071607376b560dca@mail.gmail.com>

Mowing

Sitting quietly, doing nothing,
Spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.

?classic Zen poem from the Zenrin Kushu

I'm no Buddhist, but I know enough of lawns
to say the grass grows by itself even
when I'm not sitting quietly. Take now,
for example: I'm in a terrible mood, full
of so much desire and April cruelty
I could wash away the four noble truths,
and, almost as I mow, the new growth
pushes against my chloroplasted shoes.
Even as a child visiting Virginia,
I gazed down picnic-perfect battlefields
and guessed that before the last cannonballs 
burst and the last dying soldiers cried
their mothers' names into the air, the grass
was already swarming back up the bloody hills,
as it now goes about its green business
with entrepreneurial zeal, cracking sidewalks
and dishevelling my brick patio.
And when my daughter swings in our back yard,
crying, "Watch me, Daddy! Look how high!"
I look up from the mower as she launches 
into the leafy arms of the trees, the whole
swingset heaving, then swoops back down again,
her bare feet riffling over the blades,
grass I scattered with my own two fists,
and I know?sitting, standing, quiet or not?
that as she grows there's nothing I can do.
    Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jul 16 12:16:40 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:16:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Richard Newman
References: <731bb17a05071607376b560dca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007e01c58a21$c01c4840$62b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Aside from its Kooserian conventionality, the thing that bugs me about this poem is that the speaker is mowing his lawn while he's what--chanting his poem?  Would have worked better for me by having simply been put in the past tense.

--Bob G.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 10:37 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Richard Newman


  Mowing

      Sitting quietly, doing nothing,
      Spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.

          ?classic Zen poem from the Zenrin Kushu

  I'm no Buddhist, but I know enough of lawns 
  to say the grass grows by itself even
  when I'm not sitting quietly. Take now,
  for example: I'm in a terrible mood, full
  of so much desire and April cruelty
  I could wash away the four noble truths,
  and, almost as I mow, the new growth 
  pushes against my chloroplasted shoes.
  Even as a child visiting Virginia,
  I gazed down picnic-perfect battlefields
  and guessed that before the last cannonballs 
  burst and the last dying soldiers cried
  their mothers' names into the air, the grass 
  was already swarming back up the bloody hills,
  as it now goes about its green business
  with entrepreneurial zeal, cracking sidewalks
  and dishevelling my brick patio.
  And when my daughter swings in our back yard, 
  crying, "Watch me, Daddy! Look how high!"
  I look up from the mower as she launches 
  into the leafy arms of the trees, the whole
  swingset heaving, then swoops back down again,
  her bare feet riffling over the blades, 
  grass I scattered with my own two fists,
  and I know?sitting, standing, quiet or not?
  that as she grows there's nothing I can do.




  Jeff Newberry

  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jul 16 13:06:24 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:06:24 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: New Latin American studies books from University
	of Minnesota Press
Message-ID: <007201c58a28$b2f93a90$9fdf3652@ANNY>

New Latin American studies books from University of Minnesota Press


Subject: New Latin American studies books from University of Minnesota Press


         

THE COLLECTED POEMS OF ?DOUARD GLISSANT
?douard Glissant
Translated by Jeff Humphries with Melissa Manolas
Edited and with an introduction by Jeff Humphries
University of Minnesota Press | 248 pages | 2005
ISBN 0-8166-4194-3 | hardcover | $29.95

The complete poems of the two-time finalist for the Nobel Prize in Literature, available in English for the first time.

This volume collects and translates-most for the first time-the nine volumes of poetry published by ?douard Glissant, one of the great writers of the twentieth century. The poems bring to life what Glissant calls "an archipelago-like reality," partaking of the exchanges between Europe and its former colonies, between humans and their geographies, between the poet and the natural world.

For more information, visit the book's webpage:
http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/G/glissant_collected.html



RAMONA MEMORIES: Tourism and the Shaping of Southern California
Dydia DeLyser
University of Minnesota Press | 296 pages | 2005
ISBN 0-8166-4571-X | hardcover | $56.95
ISBN 0-8166-4572-8 | paperback | $18.95

How the heroine of a nineteenth-century romance novel pervades southern California's regional identity.

The most important woman in the history of southern California never lived. The eponymous heroine of Helen Hunt Jackson's popular 1884 novel Ramona, a half-Indian beauty raised on a wealthy Mexican rancho, nonetheless left an indelible imprint on the landscape. Ramona Memories reveals how Helen Hunt Jackson's novel-and the real places and products that it inspired-helped to make an idealized past visible, permeating southern California's social memory. Dydia DeLyser traces the Ramona myth's emergence within the late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century tourist industry when landmarks identified with Ramona's fictional life became important parts of a visit to southern California.

For more information, including the table of contents, visit the book's webpage:
http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/D/delyser_ramona.html



QUEER MIGRATIONS: Sexuality, U.S. Citizenships, and Border Crossings
Eithne Luibh?id and Lionel Cant? Jr., editors
University of Minnesota Press | 248 pages | 2005
ISBN 0-8166-4465-9 | hardcover | $59.95
ISBN 0-8166-4466-7 | paperback | $19.95

At the intersection of citizenship, sexuality, and race, a new perspective on the immigrant experience.

Queer Migrations brings together scholars to provide analyses of the norms, institutions, and discourses that affect queer immigrants of color, also providing ethnographic studies of how these newcomers have transformed established immigrant communities in Miami, San Francisco, and New York.

"An indispensable guide for anyone wishing to understand how queer sexualities confront, challenge and transform international migration to the United States." -Pierrette Hondagneu-Sotelo

"Queer Migrations powerfully unpacks the ways in which state mechanisms police borders and bodies simultaneously and is an invaluable addition to the scholarship on race, sexuality, and migration." -Gayatri Gopinath

Contributors: Martin F. Manalansan IV, Susana Pe?a, Erica Rand, Timothy Randazzo, Horacio N. Roque Ram?rez, Alisa Solomon, Siobhan B. Somerville, Alexandra Minna Stern.

For more information, visit the book's webpage:
http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/L/luibheid_queer.html



NEVER ONE NATION: Freaks, Savages, and Whiteness in U.S. Popular Culture, 1850-1877
Linda Frost
University of Minnesota Press | 272 pages | 2005
ISBN 0-8166-4489-6 | hardcover | $59.95
ISBN 0-8166-4490-X | paperback | $19.95

Reviewing popular culture from newspaper headlines to sideshows, how American identity was forged through exclusion and stigmatization. 

Linda Frost argues that during the decades surrounding the Civil War, American identity was constructed not only nationally but also locally. Depictions of race, class, and sexuality seen in P. T. Barnum's museums, in the image of the Circassian Beauty, and in popular periodicals like Harper's Weekly and the San Francisco Golden Era further illustrated who was-and who was not-an American.

For more information, including the table of contents, visit the book's webpage:
http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/F/frost_never.html




For information about examination copies, view our exam copy policy online:
http://www.upress.umn.edu/ordering/examination.html

For more Latin American studies books, view our website:
http://www.upress.umn.edu/bysubject/latin_american.html

You are signed up for University of Minnesota Press E-news.  If you wish to be removed from this list, please email  zellm003 at umn.edu.




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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Sat Jul 16 13:27:35 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:27:35 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Richard Newman
In-Reply-To: <007e01c58a21$c01c4840$62b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a05071607376b560dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<007e01c58a21$c01c4840$62b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <33abf2750507161027c531681@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, it's not that conventional, taken from the zen standpoint. The 
seemingly brief mention of the four noble truths, and of throwing them away, 
is the keypoint. If one misses that line, it's a pretty good, though 
seemingly innocuous, poem in itself. If one knows or checks the reference of 
the noble truths, the poem has a very different and disturbing undertone. 
Control of the self, patience and the ability to let go of all external 
things which one cannot control--and the suffering that struggle for control 
and possession brings--is the heart of zen. I like how the speaker's 
disillusion spreads to every image in the poem.

It's a little heavy-handed in it's anti-zen passion though. I'd like to see 
a few lines muted--lines 3-5 for example, I think he explains his "terrible 
mood" too much. In fact, why does he have to tell us he's in a terrible mood 
at all? The entire poem tells us that--the phrase itself is unnecessary. I 
particularly like the "desire and April cruelty"--I think that says more 
fully what "terrible mood" is trying to allude. Perhaps if the speaker were 
a little less frenzied in his diction? The images themselves are frantic, I 
don't think the language needs to be too.

Yours, Jeff? I like it. (Sorry Bob.)



On 7/16/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> 
> Aside from its Kooserian conventionality, the thing that bugs me about 
> this poem is that the speaker is mowing his lawn while he's what--chanting 
> his poem? Would have worked better for me by having simply been put in the 
> past tense.
>  --Bob G.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> *From:* Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> 
> *To:* NewPoetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 16, 2005 10:37 AM
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Richard Newman
> 
> Mowing
> 
> Sitting quietly, doing nothing,
> Spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.
> 
> ?classic Zen poem from the Zenrin Kushu
> 
> I'm no Buddhist, but I know enough of lawns 
> to say the grass grows by itself even
> when I'm not sitting quietly. Take now,
> for example: I'm in a terrible mood, full
> of so much desire and April cruelty
> I could wash away the four noble truths,
> and, almost as I mow, the new growth 
> pushes against my chloroplasted shoes.
> Even as a child visiting Virginia,
> I gazed down picnic-perfect battlefields
> and guessed that before the last cannonballs 
> burst and the last dying soldiers cried
> their mothers' names into the air, the grass 
> was already swarming back up the bloody hills,
> as it now goes about its green business
> with entrepreneurial zeal, cracking sidewalks
> and dishevelling my brick patio.
> And when my daughter swings in our back yard, 
> crying, "Watch me, Daddy! Look how high!"
> I look up from the mower as she launches 
> into the leafy arms of the trees, the whole
> swingset heaving, then swoops back down again,
> her bare feet riffling over the blades, 
> grass I scattered with my own two fists,
> and I know?sitting, standing, quiet or not?
> that as she grows there's nothing I can do.
>     Jeff Newberry
> 
> -- 
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> --Miguel de Unamuno
> 
> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> 
>  ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sat Jul 16 14:25:42 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:25:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Richard Newman
In-Reply-To: <33abf2750507161027c531681@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a05071607376b560dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<007e01c58a21$c01c4840$62b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<33abf2750507161027c531681@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05071611257911e9d9@mail.gmail.com>

No, not mine--it's by a guy named Richard Newman from the book *Borrowed 
Towns *(Wordtech).
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/16/05, Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> Actually, it's not that conventional, taken from the zen standpoint. The 
> seemingly brief mention of the four noble truths, and of throwing them away, 
> is the keypoint. If one misses that line, it's a pretty good, though 
> seemingly innocuous, poem in itself. If one knows or checks the reference of 
> the noble truths, the poem has a very different and disturbing undertone. 
> Control of the self, patience and the ability to let go of all external 
> things which one cannot control--and the suffering that struggle for control 
> and possession brings--is the heart of zen. I like how the speaker's 
> disillusion spreads to every image in the poem.
> 
> It's a little heavy-handed in it's anti-zen passion though. I'd like to 
> see a few lines muted--lines 3-5 for example, I think he explains his 
> "terrible mood" too much. In fact, why does he have to tell us he's in a 
> terrible mood at all? The entire poem tells us that--the phrase itself is 
> unnecessary. I particularly like the "desire and April cruelty"--I think 
> that says more fully what "terrible mood" is trying to allude. Perhaps if 
> the speaker were a little less frenzied in his diction? The images 
> themselves are frantic, I don't think the language needs to be too.
> 
> Yours, Jeff? I like it. (Sorry Bob.) 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/16/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 
> > 
> > Aside from its Kooserian conventionality, the thing that bugs me about 
> > this poem is that the speaker is mowing his lawn while he's what--chanting 
> > his poem? Would have worked better for me by having simply been put in the 
> > past tense.
> >  --Bob G.
> > 
> >  ----- Original Message ----- 
> > *From:* Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> 
> > *To:* NewPoetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> > *Sent:* Saturday, July 16, 2005 10:37 AM
> > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Richard Newman
> > 
> >  Mowing
> > 
> > Sitting quietly, doing nothing,
> > Spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.
> > 
> > ?classic Zen poem from the Zenrin Kushu
> > 
> > I'm no Buddhist, but I know enough of lawns 
> > to say the grass grows by itself even
> > when I'm not sitting quietly. Take now,
> > for example: I'm in a terrible mood, full
> > of so much desire and April cruelty
> > I could wash away the four noble truths,
> > and, almost as I mow, the new growth 
> > pushes against my chloroplasted shoes.
> > Even as a child visiting Virginia,
> > I gazed down picnic-perfect battlefields
> > and guessed that before the last cannonballs 
> > burst and the last dying soldiers cried
> > their mothers' names into the air, the grass 
> > was already swarming back up the bloody hills,
> > as it now goes about its green business
> > with entrepreneurial zeal, cracking sidewalks
> > and dishevelling my brick patio.
> > And when my daughter swings in our back yard, 
> > crying, "Watch me, Daddy! Look how high!"
> > I look up from the mower as she launches 
> > into the leafy arms of the trees, the whole
> > swingset heaving, then swoops back down again,
> > her bare feet riffling over the blades, 
> > grass I scattered with my own two fists,
> > and I know?sitting, standing, quiet or not?
> > that as she grows there's nothing I can do.
> >     Jeff Newberry
> > 
> > -- 
> > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> > --Miguel de Unamuno
> > 
> > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> > 
> >  ------------------------------
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------
> Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jul 16 14:29:50 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:29:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Richard Newman
References: <731bb17a05071607376b560dca@mail.gmail.com><007e01c58a21$c01c4840$62b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<33abf2750507161027c531681@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01c58a34$5a8efd20$62b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

It's by Richard Newman (I assume).  See Subject.  I at first thought it was by Jeff, too.  I think people should put a poem's author's name at the bottom.  Not only more clear, but can prevent mix-ups if the poem is cut-and-pasted.

I admit I pretty much ignored "the four noble truths," taking them for . . . well, four Noble Truths, but not caring much about them.  The poem still seems too conventional to me--simple (even clumsy) conversation, overt moral--even for those of us who aren't that into Zen. just about everything Iowa PlainText Lyrics have, plus that little extra touch of the somewhat arcane. 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sat Jul 16 15:03:20 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:03:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Richard Newman
References: <731bb17a05071607376b560dca@mail.gmail.com><007e01c58a21$c01c4840$62b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><33abf2750507161027c531681@mail.gmail.com>
	<00ad01c58a34$5a8efd20$62b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <061e01c58a39$09bdf4a0$f2032cd9@Robin>

<<
I admit I pretty much ignored "the four noble truths," taking them for . . .
well, four Noble Truths, but not caring much about them.
>>

Isn't the Four Noble Truths generally Buddhist rather than specifically zen?

Just asking.

Robin




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sat Jul 16 15:25:45 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:25:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Survey
Message-ID: <731bb17a0507161225196dbd18@mail.gmail.com>

Over at Silly-Man's blog, he's got this link today:
 http://www.ocotillodesign.com/terrain/survey/
 Apparently, your input is needed.
 Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Sat Jul 16 19:34:27 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:34:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Richard Newman
In-Reply-To: <061e01c58a39$09bdf4a0$f2032cd9@Robin>
References: <731bb17a05071607376b560dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<007e01c58a21$c01c4840$62b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<33abf2750507161027c531681@mail.gmail.com>
	<00ad01c58a34$5a8efd20$62b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<061e01c58a39$09bdf4a0$f2032cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <33abf27505071616347ef70133@mail.gmail.com>

I believe you're right Robin. I used the word zen the way people use the 
word catholic to refer to christian practices. There may or may not be 
slight variations of the Noble Truths from one branch of Buddhism to the 
other. I know their definitions relating to zen, and I didn't want to 
overgeneralize buddhism, not knowing if there are differences.

Could be I like the poem simply because it's something I'm interested in at 
the moment. Which kind of gets back to the Kooser discussion--people pay 
more attention when it's about something they can relate to. 

Of course, if I paid attention to the subject for longer than the second it 
takes me to click on it, I would have known that Jeff hadn't written it. May 
I request that the poet's name also go in the body of the email when folks 
paste poetry, as a reminder for dummies like me who notice these important 
little things and then promptly forget them?




On 7/16/05, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> 
> <<
> I admit I pretty much ignored "the four noble truths," taking them for . . 
> .
> well, four Noble Truths, but not caring much about them.
> >>
> 
> Isn't the Four Noble Truths generally Buddhist rather than specifically 
> zen?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> Robin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Jul 16 23:03:56 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:03:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maximus: the movie
Message-ID: <ac.7748802a.300b249c@aol.com>


http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/07/14/bringing_a_poet_back_to_the_people/


Bringing a poet back to the people
Gloucester filmmaker documents work of Charles Olson
By James Sullivan, Globe Correspondent  |  July 14, 2005

Herman Melville was out of fashion when a young Massachusetts scholar named 
Charles Olson began studying the author in the 1930s. Olson's first book, 
''Call Me Ishmael," completed in 1945, was a critical reassessment that would help 
establish a new era of Melville appreciation.

Sixty years later, it is Olson's reputation that could use a boost. In his 
lifetime, he had plenty of admirers. His theory of spoken poetry cleared the 
path for the Beats and performance poetry, and Olson's was the leading voice in 
the groundbreaking 1960 anthology ''The New American Poetry." In academic 
circles, he is often counted as one of the most influential poets of the 20th 
century.

Yet Olson,
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 17 04:31:35 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:31:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] www.theengine.net
In-Reply-To: <ac.7748802a.300b249c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20050717083135.61679.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>

even more new writing from Germany @ www.theengine.net
+ Paul McCarthy in Munich, Young Einstein etc etc


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul 17 06:39:54 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:39:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] yackety-yack
Message-ID: <00dc01c58abb$de878cf0$0fec3652@ANNY>

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970922

Yadda yadda yadda has in fact made it into a dictionary--the Random House Webster's College Dictionary, I'm again happy to say. We've been paying attention to the term for several years, and finally decided that it was time to add it. The definition, you might be interested to know, is simply blah-blah-blah, a cross-reference. 

It's hard to pinpoint an exact date for yadda-yadda-yadda, also spelled yada-yada-yada; yadayadayada; and other variants, in part because it's hard to decide which variants should be considered the same word. In the late 1940s, for example, we find yaddega-yaddega and yatata-yatata-yatata--this is the same era, remember, that gave us the now-established yackety-yack. But by the early 1960s, the comedian Lenny Bruce was certainly using yadda-yadda-yadda, and we have examples from then on. 

...

______________________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Sun Jul 17 10:44:44 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:44:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
In-Reply-To: <005a01c58644$b849ce70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com>
	<002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<33abf2750507111012506b7639@mail.gmail.com>
	<005a01c58644$b849ce70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1121611485.28279.46.camel@malatesta>

On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 14:16 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
>   
> Grasshoppers
> This year they are exactly the size
> of the pencil stub my grandfather kept
> to mark off the days since rain,
> 
> and precisely the color of dust, of the roads
> leading back across the dying fields
> into the '30s. Walking the cracked lane
> 
> past the empty barn, the empty silo,
> you hear them tinkering with irony,
> slapping the grass like drops of rain.
> 
>   -- Ted Kooser

I like this, and I haven't liked much else I've read by Kooser.

> But what about "tinkering with irony"? How is that not obscure? How
> did Ted's secretary and the folks in the next cubicle absorb that with
> perfectly clarity? I'm nor sure I get it myself. Or want it, for that
> matter.

I also agree that half line is the weakest part of the poem.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul 17 12:13:09 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:13:09 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ian Davidson
Message-ID: <01c701c58aea$6cf67a40$0fec3652@ANNY>

The alley way - Barcelona 2004



      I understand compulsion

       

      limbs simply carriers for veins

       

      I comprehend obsession

       

      discarded at the first sign of infection

       

      I appreciate anxiety

       

      ways of fixing things for the present

       

      it is a sick joke to make the body most

      receptive to things that will kill it

       

      condemned to distraction 

      compensation

      I mean the throw of the dice

      I mean never say die

      never say the same thing twice

       

       

       

       

      ? Ian Davidson

       

I just put Ian Davidson's work on the Poets' Corner, I told the Author that his is the kind of poetry I have always striven to write.

You can find more here:
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=180

Best wishes,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sun Jul 17 12:19:39 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:19:39 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Kooser keeping it short & sweet
References: <127.5ff160d4.3003e8e0@aol.com><002a01c58634$911597e0$70b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><33abf2750507111012506b7639@mail.gmail.com><005a01c58644$b849ce70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1121611485.28279.46.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <004b01c58aeb$5572c620$e89c9951@Robin>

<<
 Walking the cracked lane
>>

Now that's a bugger and a half --  are Uche and I the only two on this list
who won't place a foot on a cracked pavement?

Who do voo do you do do.

Doctor Samandi Death





From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sun Jul 17 13:20:18 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:20:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gary Snyder
Message-ID: <731bb17a0507171020759879fa@mail.gmail.com>

A *Guardian *profile of Gary Snyder:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1529389,00.html
 Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Jul 17 13:44:08 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:44:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gary Snyder
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0507171020759879fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0507171020759879fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5051089d7f917429ebf239bb2004421c@earthlink.net>

Phew, almost had a heart attack, Jeff. Thought
you were going to report S's passing/death/farm-buying.

Hal

Today's Special

Theory of Harmony
http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

On Jul 17, 2005, at 1:20 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> A Guardian profile of Gary Snyder:
> http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1529389,00.html
> ?
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? --Miguel de Unamuno
>
> Blog:?? http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>
> ?_______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From MillB at aol.com  Sun Jul 17 13:59:15 2005
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:59:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gary Snyder
Message-ID: <212.4e432c6.300bf673@aol.com>

Hal,
 
Me too!  Maybe I am a trained rat, but when I see a poet's name as the  
subject line, I imagine the worst.
 
Mill
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul 17 15:35:06 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:35:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gary Snyder
References: <731bb17a0507171020759879fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901c58b06$a3339ae0$12aa3852@ANNY>

Thank you Jeff, a good article.

I extracted the following:

Snyder points out that the San Francisco poetry renaissance was already advanced, in the work of Rexroth, Robert Duncan, Jack Spicer and others, before the subversive Ginsberg gang arrived from the east coast: "They just publicised it." 

...

The last letters Snyder received from Kerouac, who died in a broken-down state in 1969, were ranting and insulting, but Snyder remains affectionate towards the man who mythologised him in a cult novel before he reached the age of 30. "Jack was a dedicated person. As a Buddhist he had some very good insights. It was all mixed up with his French-Canadian Roman Catholicism, but so what? It's hard to know why people self-destruct. They do so for reasons of deep and ancient karma, qualities of their character they were born with."

...
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 7:20 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Gary Snyder


  A Guardian profile of Gary Snyder:
  http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1529389,00.html

  Jeff Newberry

  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Jul 17 16:37:32 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:37:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gary Snyder
In-Reply-To: <003901c58b06$a3339ae0$12aa3852@ANNY>
References: <731bb17a0507171020759879fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<003901c58b06$a3339ae0$12aa3852@ANNY>
Message-ID: <5d1f0bd0115c8a0ea55524451fca0610@earthlink.net>

Just publicized it. Hmmph! Ginsberg was
a promotional, marketing genius. A dynamo.

Hal

Today's Special

Theory of Harmony
http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

On Jul 17, 2005, at 3:35 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Thank you Jeff, a good article.
> ?
> I extracted the following:
> ?
> Snyder points out that the San Francisco poetry renaissance was 
> already advanced, in the work of Rexroth, Robert Duncan, Jack Spicer 
> and others, before the subversive Ginsberg gang arrived from the east 
> coast: "They just publicised it."
> ?
> ...
> ?
> The last letters Snyder received from Kerouac, who died in a 
> broken-down state in 1969, were ranting and insulting, but Snyder 
> remains affectionate towards the man who mythologised him in a cult 
> novel before he reached the age of 30. "Jack was a dedicated person. 
> As a Buddhist he had some very good insights. It was all mixed up with 
> his French-Canadian Roman Catholicism, but so what? It's hard to know 
> why people self-destruct. They do so for reasons of deep and ancient 
> karma, qualities of their character they were born with."
> ?
> ...
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jeff Newberry
>> To: NewPoetry
>> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 7:20 PM
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] Gary Snyder
>>
>> A Guardian profile of Gary Snyder:
>> http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1529389,00.html
>> ?
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>> -- 
>> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? --Miguel de Unamuno
>>
>> Blog:?? http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>>
>> ?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Kazmandu at aol.com  Sun Jul 17 23:33:55 2005
From: Kazmandu at aol.com (Kazmandu at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:33:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Isn't the Four Noble Truths generally Buddhist?
Message-ID: <1c6.2cb990c7.300c7d23@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/17/2005 9:15:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes:
Isn't the Four Noble Truths generally Buddhist rather than specifically zen?

Just asking.

Robin
Yes Robin,
 The four noble truths came from The Buddha himself which of course predates 
Zen
Cheers,
Kaz

here is a link to a video one can buy of the Dalai Lama explaining the four 
noble truths in English ... Though he does use a translator for much of it.

http://www.mysticfire.com/index.html?cart=1121657177245222
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Mon Jul 18 00:00:48 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:00:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Four Noble Truths 
In-Reply-To: <1c6.2cb990c7.300c7d23@aol.com>
References: <1c6.2cb990c7.300c7d23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1121659248.42db29702e62c@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

The first Sutta (discourse) in which Gotama the Buddha explained the 4 Noble 
Truths (Ariya [related to the word "Aryan"] sacca) was delivered in 590 BCE. 
It is called the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: The Discourse on Setting the 
Wheel of Dhamma in Motion (a translation from the ancient language, Pali, in 
which the Buddha spoke the sutta, can be found here: 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011.htm. 

Zen Buddhism was founded on a Chinese form of Buddhism called Chan Buddhism -- 
and Chan wasn't carried into China until about 520 CE. 

The Buddha did NOT teach Buddhism. The Buddha taught the Dhamma. What we now 
call Buddhism quite often bears little in common with what the Buddha taught. 

Gabe



Quoting Kazmandu at aol.com:

> In a message dated 7/17/2005 9:15:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes:
> Isn't the Four Noble Truths generally Buddhist rather than specifically zen?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> Robin
> Yes Robin,
>  The four noble truths came from The Buddha himself which of course predates
> 
> Zen
> Cheers,
> Kaz
> 
> here is a link to a video one can buy of the Dalai Lama explaining the four 
> noble truths in English ... Though he does use a translator for much of it.
> 
> http://www.mysticfire.com/index.html?cart=1121657177245222
> 




------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Mon Jul 18 00:15:44 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:15:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Four Noble Truths
In-Reply-To: <1121659248.42db29702e62c@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
References: <1c6.2cb990c7.300c7d23@aol.com>
	<1121659248.42db29702e62c@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <1121660144.42db2cf0eccfb@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

I should add that this was the first discourse the Buddha gave after he 
touched nibbana -- that is after he fully purified his heart and mind and 
touched a mental state that is, for all intents and purposes, beyond the field 
of mind and matter. So, in his very first discourse the Buddha taught the 4 
Noble Truths. He went on teaching them the rest of his life, from the age of 
35, when he gained enlightenment, to the age of 80, when he passed away. 

1. Life is inherently unsatisfactory, containing often profound suffering and 
misery but that it contains, AT ALL TIMES, at least some level of 
unsatisfactoriness. We come from suffering and misery and we are going toward 
suffering and misery

2. Suffering arises from craving. Misery arises from craving.

3. There is a way out of suffering. One can be liberated from it.

4. The pathway out of suffering involves 8 different components, 8 different 
things one must practice with rigor -- which basically boil down to three 
things: (1) live a moral life (don't hurt others or yourself), (2) gain 
control over your mind through concentrative meditation, (3) develop insight 
through seeing things as they really are -- by the rigorous meditative 
cultivation of wisdom.

The kind of meditation the Buddha taught in order to develop 4 (3) is called 
Vipassana. For a free-of-charge ten day course near you, try www.dhamma.org.

Gabe


Quoting gmguddi at ilstu.edu:

> The first Sutta (discourse) in which Gotama the Buddha explained the 4 Noble
> 
> Truths (Ariya [related to the word "Aryan"] sacca) was delivered in 590 BCE.
> 
> It is called the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: The Discourse on Setting the 
> Wheel of Dhamma in Motion (a translation from the ancient language, Pali, in
> 
> which the Buddha spoke the sutta, can be found here: 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011.htm. 
> 
> Zen Buddhism was founded on a Chinese form of Buddhism called Chan Buddhism
> -- 
> and Chan wasn't carried into China until about 520 CE. 
> 
> The Buddha did NOT teach Buddhism. The Buddha taught the Dhamma. What we now
> 
> call Buddhism quite often bears little in common with what the Buddha taught.
> 
> 
> Gabe
> 
> 
> 
> Quoting Kazmandu at aol.com:
> 
> > In a message dated 7/17/2005 9:15:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes:
> > Isn't the Four Noble Truths generally Buddhist rather than specifically
> zen?
> > 
> > Just asking.
> > 
> > Robin
> > Yes Robin,
> >  The four noble truths came from The Buddha himself which of course
> predates
> > 
> > Zen
> > Cheers,
> > Kaz
> > 
> > here is a link to a video one can buy of the Dalai Lama explaining the four
> 
> > noble truths in English ... Though he does use a translator for much of
> it.
> > 
> > http://www.mysticfire.com/index.html?cart=1121657177245222
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu



From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jul 18 00:43:14 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:43:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Is Karl Rove A Bedwetter?
In-Reply-To: <1121659248.42db29702e62c@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
References: <1c6.2cb990c7.300c7d23@aol.com>
	<1121659248.42db29702e62c@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <42DB3362.4070902@ix.netcom.com>

*/ Rep. Peter King (R-Seaford) blasted Wilson, saying he had "no 
credibility," while providing no proof. What do you think a person who 
has lost soemone in Iraq would like to do to Peter King. If Rove is 
willing to destroy lives, murder thousands and put dozens of operatives 
at risk and then expect to walk, all out of vindictiveness, what should 
we as a just society allow someone to do who has lost a son or daughter 
in Iraq to a fuckin' piece of manure like Peter King? What? It seems 
nothing would be too extreme. /*

*/ The Assassinated Press /*

Karl Rove: A Bedwetter's Anger Turned Outward.:
Being 'A Piece Of Shit' May Be Catching-Up With White House Chief Of 
Stink Karl Rove:
Fact That It Took So Long To Finger Rove Demonstrates The Moral 
Bankruptcy Of The American Way Of Life If Not The Entire Enlightenment 
Project:
Karl Rove: His Father Abandoned Him; His Mother Committed Suicide, But 
The World Is Getting Tired Of Paying the Price For His Pathology:
Did Rove's Mother Kill Herself When She Realized What She Had Brought 
Into The World?:

BY G.REESY PALMER
Assassinated Press Washington Bureau
July 15, 2005
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/

WASHINGTON -- Ratcheting up their criticism of presidential adviser Karl 
Rove for his alleged role in revealing the identity of a CIA agent, 
Senate Democrats offered an amendment yesterday that would strip him of 
his security clearance which Rove has used to deftly produce lies that 
have led to the holocaust that is the Iraq War.

Because a lot of money has been made as a result of a series of Rove 
fabricated lies about Iraq, the amendment was defeated on a party-line 
vote of 53-44. A Republican bill introduced in response out of pure 
spite- which targeted any officeholder who refers to a classified FBI 
report on the floor of the Senate, a slap at Minority Leader Harry Reid 
(D-Nev.), who had done so weeks earlier - also was defeated, 64-33.

Earlier in the day, Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), smelling that 
peculiar smell that is the blood of parasites like Rove, appeared at an 
afternoon news conference with former ambassador Joseph Wilson, whose 
wife is the CIA agent he says was exposed for political reasons 
jeopardizing all of her associates in the front business she was part of 
as well as dozens of contacts, to call on President George W. Bush to 
revoke Rove's clearance.

"Even a child knows if a person can't keep a secret you stop telling 
them secrets," Schumer said, referring to Bush's "Gee shucks. I'm sure 
as shit slow on the uptake" persona.

Wilson, whose threat on their wallets, not to mention their souls, has 
been attacked by Republicans, said GOP operatives are threatening his 
family simply because he disagreed with administration findings that 
Saddam Hussein was attempting to obtain nuclear material from the West 
African country of Niger. Mr. Wilson's assertion have proven to be true, 
while Rove and fellow administration have yet again proven to be 
motherfucking liars. Of course, since this doesn't seem to matter to a 
lot of Americans and their representatives on Capitol Hill, the world is 
absolutely justified in applauding loudly and with gusto every American 
death in Iraq because the whole piece of shit invasion was predicated on 
lies and more lies, followed by petty vindictiveness that threatened 
national security and an unwillingness on the part of lawmakers to meet 
true Americans who are fed up with their lies out in the street with 
chains, knives and baseball bats instead of hiding behind their cowardly 
All Talk Radio asswipes.

"It is with great sadness someone would reveal classified information 
for the purpose of achieving a political end. But given what living 
pieces of shit people like Rove, "Scooter" Libby, Elliott Abrams and 
Dick Cheney are, who can claim to be surprised," Wilson said. "The smear 
campaign launched from the West Wing of the White House is ethically 
unacceptable but must be appreciated by every fan of Goethe."

Rove has emerged as a central suspect in the probe of who revealed the 
covert connection of Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, to several journalists.

Plame's name was published in one of many treasonous columns by Robert 
Novak shortly after Wilson wrote a New York Times column saying the Bush 
administration manipulated intelligence in the run up to the war.

Federal law prohibits government officials from identifying of covert 
operatives under certain circumstances. When Philip Agee did it for 
altruistic reasons, he faced treason charges. Rove did it because he's a 
vindictive little piece of shit and that hopefully is coming back to 
haunt him as both his father and mother I'm sure had hoped. A special 
prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, was named to investigate the source of 
the leak, possibly a veiled reference to Rove's bedwetting.

Fitzgerald called journalists to testify before a grand jury about who 
had told them about Plame. One was Matt Cooper of Time magazine. After 
losing a legal battle, Time gave Fitzgerald internal documents related 
to the case. An e-mail said Cooper had discussed Plame's identity with 
Rove.

Republican repudiation of the Wilson charges but not his report on Niger 
"yellow cake" and support for Rove came swiftly and forcefully because 
of the billions of dollars in war booty involved. "Let them eat "yellow 
cake", Bill Frist told a meeting of his major corporate contributors 
lobbyists in the Bend Over And Take It From The Elite Ronald Reagan 
Hearing Room in the Capitol.

Sticking his neck out in a series of lies Sen. Christopher Bond (R-Mo.) 
said, "Joe Wilson perpetuated one of the great hoaxes in all political 
time," said Sen. Christopher Bond (R-Mo.). Bond said Wilson didn't tell 
the truth about why he was sent to Niger and what he found. "His attacks 
are a political sham" even though his report has proven to be true and 
administration officials lied leading to thousands of deaths. I mean, 
what do you think a just people would rise up and do to a Christopher Bond?

Rep. Peter King (R-Seaford) blasted Wilson, saying he had "no 
credibility," while providing no proof. What do you think a person who 
has lost someone in Iraq would like to do to Peter King. If Rove is 
willing to destroy lives, murder thousands and put dozens of operatives 
at risk and then expect to walk, all out of vindictiveness, what should 
we as a just society allow someone to do who has lost a son or daughter 
in Iraq to a fuckin' piece of manure like Peter King? What? It seems 
nothing would be too extreme.

But King saved the most stinging, self-serving criticism for Schumer.

"To me the key issue is why a Democratic senator would use a proven liar 
to damage a president in a time of war," King said. "How low will 
Democrats go?" King seemed to miss that Schumer was criticizing Rove not 
supporting the "proven liar."



<http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/index.html>

>  
>


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Jul 18 04:58:33 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 03:58:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maximus: the movie
In-Reply-To: <ac.7748802a.300b249c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF00D969.9898%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/16/05 10:03 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:

> http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/07/14/bringing_a_poet_back_to_t
> he_people/
> 
> 
> Bringing a poet back to the people
> Gloucester filmmaker documents work of Charles Olson
> By James Sullivan, Globe Correspondent  |  July 14, 2005
> 
> Herman Melville was out of fashion when a young Massachusetts scholar named
> Charles Olson began studying the author in the 1930s. Olson's first book,
> ''Call Me Ishmael," completed in 1945, was a critical reassessment that would
> help establish a new era of Melville appreciation.
> 
> Sixty years later, it is Olson's reputation that could use a boost. In his
> lifetime, he had plenty of admirers. His theory of spoken poetry cleared the
> path for the Beats and performance poetry, and Olson's was the leading voice
> in the groundbreaking 1960 anthology ''The New American Poetry." In academic
> circles, he is often counted as one of the most influential poets of the 20th
> century.
> 
> Yet Olson,
> 
> remains a pompous bore.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


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From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 18 12:19:56 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:19:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maximus: the movie
In-Reply-To: <BF00D969.9898%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BF00D969.9898%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <03c46d39a3a50391e0b02635b33955c1@earthlink.net>

Paul, you really need to find a way to distinguish
your words/ideas from those of folks you're quoting
or responding to.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

On Jul 18, 2005, at 4:58 AM, Paul Lake wrote:

> On 7/16/05 10:03 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/07/14/ 
>> bringing_a_poet_back_to_the_people/
>>
>>
>>  Bringing a poet back to the people
>>  Gloucester filmmaker documents work of Charles Olson
>>  By James Sullivan, Globe Correspondent ?| ?July 14, 2005
>>
>>  Herman Melville was out of fashion when a young Massachusetts  
>> scholar named Charles Olson began studying the author in the 1930s.  
>> Olson's first book, ''Call Me Ishmael," completed in 1945, was a  
>> critical reassessment that would help establish a new era of Melville  
>> appreciation.
>>
>>  Sixty years later, it is Olson's reputation that could use a boost.  
>> In his lifetime, he had plenty of admirers. His theory of spoken  
>> poetry cleared the path for the Beats and performance poetry, and  
>> Olson's was the leading voice in the groundbreaking 1960 anthology  
>> ''The New American Poetry." In academic circles, he is often counted  
>> as one of the most influential poets of the 20th century.
>>
>>  Yet Olson,
>>
>>  remains a pompous bore.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jul 18 12:23:52 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:23:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Forward Prize nominees
Message-ID: <204.5d3c624.300d3198@aol.com>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4691267.stm
 
NI poetry newcomer up for award  
 
Nick Laird says poetry is his first love 
A Northern Ireland-born poet has been nominated for the UK's highest-profile 
annual poetry award with his debut collection of verse, To A Fault. 
Nick Laird, 30, from Cookstown, County Tyrone, has been shortlisted for the 
Forward Prize for his first collection. 
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Jul 18 05:24:58 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 04:24:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maximus: the movie
In-Reply-To: <03c46d39a3a50391e0b02635b33955c1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BF00DF9A.989D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/18/05 11:19 AM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Paul, you really need to find a way to distinguish
> your words/ideas from those of folks you're quoting
> or responding to.
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
> 
> On Jul 18, 2005, at 4:58 AM, Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>> On 7/16/05 10:03 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/07/14/
>>> bringing_a_poet_back_to_the_people/
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Bringing a poet back to the people
>>>  Gloucester filmmaker documents work of Charles Olson
>>>  By James Sullivan, Globe Correspondent ?| ?July 14, 2005
>>> 
>>>  Herman Melville was out of fashion when a young Massachusetts
>>> scholar named Charles Olson began studying the author in the 1930s.
>>> Olson's first book, ''Call Me Ishmael," completed in 1945, was a
>>> critical reassessment that would help establish a new era of Melville
>>> appreciation.
>>> 
>>>  Sixty years later, it is Olson's reputation that could use a boost.
>>> In his lifetime, he had plenty of admirers. His theory of spoken
>>> poetry cleared the path for the Beats and performance poetry, and
>>> Olson's was the leading voice in the groundbreaking 1960 anthology
>>> ''The New American Poetry." In academic circles, he is often counted
>>> as one of the most influential poets of the 20th century.
>>> 
>>>  Yet Olson,
>>> 
>>>  remains a pompous bore.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>> 
>>  _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Hal, I'm a collage artist. My poems are pure language, verbal constructions
stripped of the illusion of authorship.

Paul




From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 18 12:59:50 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:59:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maximus: the movie
In-Reply-To: <BF00DF9A.989D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BF00DF9A.989D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <7db37a301d6c1105a42e86c9527a152a@earthlink.net>

> Hal, I'm a collage artist. My poems are pure language, verbal 
> constructions
> stripped of the illusion of authorship.
>
> Paul

Looked at that way, welcome to the club, Paul.

Hal



From d.kellogg at neu.edu  Mon Jul 18 14:18:35 2005
From: d.kellogg at neu.edu (d.kellogg at neu.edu)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:18:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 25
Message-ID: <OF1326C68F.5EA18679-ON85257042.0062ACB5-85257042.0064938C@neu.edu>

I guess it was Paul Lake who wrote: 

> Yet Olson,
> 
> remains a pompous bore.

Pompous, yes.  More like bombastic, I would say.  Anyway, he knew a lot 
and thought he knew more.  And his persona was as a teacher.  Boring?  I 
don't think so.  I'd take his more interesting failures against the truly 
boring "successes" of some contemporaries.  Ron Reagan Jr. said when his 
father died that his old man crapped bigger turds than George W. Bush. 
That's kind of the way I feel about Olson with regard to, say, the poems 
in Rebel Angels. 

Olson wrote some pretty fantastic shorter poems (among which "The 
Kingfishers," "Merce of Egypt," "As the Dead Prey Upon Us," "The 
Librarian," "Moonset, Gloucester, December 1, 1957"), a great book on 
Melville -- not boring in the least! -- some amazing other criticism (in 
addition to "Projective Verse," which has been repeatedly abused and 
wilfully misrepresented by Lake's New Formie colleagues, there is "Human 
Universe," "Proprioception," "A Bibliography on America for Ed Dorn," 
etc.), a fantastic memoir of his father ("The Post Office"), and some of 
the richest stuff ever written on Pound and St. Elizabeth's.  And then 
there's Maximus, which is full of strange passages but also rich detail, 
interesting history, great polemics, early riffs against the emergence of 
advertising society, which Olson saw before most others (besides maybe 
Nathanael West). He's boring to those who have decided to be bored, I 
guess. 

David Kellogg
Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines
Department of English
465 Holmes Hall
Northeastern University
Boston, MA 02115
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jul 18 14:50:06 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:50:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <OF1326C68F.5EA18679-ON85257042.0062ACB5-85257042.0064938C@neu.edu>
References: <OF1326C68F.5EA18679-ON85257042.0062ACB5-85257042.0064938C@neu.edu>
Message-ID: <42DBF9DE.9020705@ix.netcom.com>

Thanks for your half-hearted defense, but Charles Olson hardly needs 
defending against the ad hominems of an ignoramus like Paul Lake. FIZZ

d.kellogg at neu.edu wrote:

>
> I guess it was Paul Lake who wrote:
>
> > Yet Olson,
> >
> > remains a pompous bore.
>
> Pompous, yes.  More like bombastic, I would say.  Anyway, he knew a 
> lot and thought he knew more.  And his persona was as a teacher. 
>  Boring?  I don't think so.  I'd take his more interesting failures 
> against the truly boring "successes" of some contemporaries.  Ron 
> Reagan Jr. said when his father died that his old man crapped bigger 
> turds than George W. Bush.  That's kind of the way I feel about Olson 
> with regard to, say, the poems in Rebel Angels.  
>
> Olson wrote some pretty fantastic shorter poems (among which "The 
> Kingfishers," "Merce of Egypt," "As the Dead Prey Upon Us," "The 
> Librarian," "Moonset, Gloucester, December 1, 1957"), a great book on 
> Melville -- not boring in the least! -- some amazing other criticism 
> (in addition to "Projective Verse," which has been repeatedly abused 
> and wilfully misrepresented by Lake's New Formie colleagues, there is 
> "Human Universe," "Proprioception," "A Bibliography on America for Ed 
> Dorn," etc.), a fantastic memoir of his father ("The Post Office"), 
> and some of the richest stuff ever written on Pound and St. 
> Elizabeth's.  And then there's Maximus, which is full of strange 
> passages but also rich detail, interesting history, great polemics, 
> early riffs against the emergence of advertising society, which Olson 
> saw before most others (besides maybe N! athanael West). He's boring 
> to those who have decided to be bored, I guess.
>
> David Kellogg
> Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines
> Department of English
> 465 Holmes Hall
> Northeastern University
> Boston, MA 02115
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
>


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Jul 18 17:19:34 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:19:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maximus: the movie
Message-ID: <s2dbd6a0.004@mail.highland.edu>

>...but Charles Olson hardly needs defending against the ad hominems of
an ignoramus like Paul Lake. FIZZ


Ah, yes, the pleasures of sophisticated high polemic...

Yo, Carlos, my main Man, what's up with this "Fizz" bit? Is it kinda
like the password the anxious, lonely kid keeps calling up to the tree
house in that ca. early-80's coming of age movie?  "Hey, it's me, Fizz!
Let me in, guys. I know you're in there! It's Fizz! Come on...
Pleeeease?!"

Later in the movie, we zoom to the future, and Fizz is a very unhappy
and unpleasant man. He calls people lots of mean names for no apparent
reason and sends sad, pompous rants about the international banking
system out to poetry listservs.

"Kizz"





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul 18 17:23:58 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:23:58 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] pictures
Message-ID: <00ba01c58bdf$02c43c70$f3a83852@ANNY>


Paula's House of Toast
DESPITE MYSELF
http://paulashouseoftoast.blogspot.com/

it continues with the archives,

especially:
http://paulashouseoftoast.blogspot.com/2005/06/what-camus-left-out.html


____________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jul 18 17:32:05 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:32:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maximus: the movie
In-Reply-To: <s2dbd6a0.004@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2dbd6a0.004@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42DC1FD5.8020205@ix.netcom.com>

Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that 
it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." FIZZ

Kent Johnson wrote:

>>...but Charles Olson hardly needs defending against the ad hominems of
>>    
>>
>an ignoramus like Paul Lake. FIZZ
>
>
>Ah, yes, the pleasures of sophisticated high polemic...
>
>Yo, Carlos, my main Man, what's up with this "Fizz" bit? Is it kinda
>like the password the anxious, lonely kid keeps calling up to the tree
>house in that ca. early-80's coming of age movie?  "Hey, it's me, Fizz!
>Let me in, guys. I know you're in there! It's Fizz! Come on...
>Pleeeease?!"
>
>Later in the movie, we zoom to the future, and Fizz is a very unhappy
>and unpleasant man. He calls people lots of mean names for no apparent
>reason and sends sad, pompous rants about the international banking
>system out to poetry listservs.
>
>"Kizz"
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Jul 18 18:27:12 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:27:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maximus: the movie
Message-ID: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu>

>Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." FIZZ

*Fizzzzzzzzz* went the timorous little bully.

(hey, by the way, what's up with this HEAT everywhere? Anyone out there
on this list still poo-pooing global warming?)


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jul 18 22:59:20 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:59:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maximus: the movie
In-Reply-To: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com>

>
>
><Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
>  
>
it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content.">

Uche knows whereof he speaks. FIZZ



Kent Johnson wrote:

>>Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
>>    
>>
>it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." FIZZ
>
>*Fizzzzzzzzz* went the timorous little bully.
>
>(hey, by the way, what's up with this HEAT everywhere? Anyone out there
>on this list still poo-pooing global warming?)
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Mon Jul 18 23:19:58 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:19:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
In-Reply-To: <42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com>
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu> <42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

Finally, I want you boys to send pictures.  Really.  If I have to endure all 
this bickering, I at least want to match faces with the names.


Quoting Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>:

> >
> >
> ><Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
> >  
> >
> it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content.">
> 
> Uche knows whereof he speaks. FIZZ
> 
> 
> 
> Kent Johnson wrote:
> 
> >>Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
> >>    
> >>
> >it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." FIZZ
> >
> >*Fizzzzzzzzz* went the timorous little bully.
> >
> >(hey, by the way, what's up with this HEAT everywhere? Anyone out there
> >on this list still poo-pooing global warming?)
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jul 18 23:25:15 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:25:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
In-Reply-To: <1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu> <42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com>

Kerry. 'Boy' is racist. There are several pictures of our handsome, 
dashing college professor Kent Johnson online. But alas I've been so 
horribly disfigured by the venereal rampages of American poetry that I 
dare not even leave my warren without a bird's nest covering my face.

FIZZ

Kerry O'Keefe wrote:

>Finally, I want you boys to send pictures.  Really.  If I have to endure all 
>this bickering, I at least want to match faces with the names.
>
>
>Quoting Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>:
>
>  
>
>>><Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content.">
>>
>>Uche knows whereof he speaks. FIZZ
>>
>>
>>
>>Kent Johnson wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." FIZZ
>>>
>>>*Fizzzzzzzzz* went the timorous little bully.
>>>
>>>(hey, by the way, what's up with this HEAT everywhere? Anyone out there
>>>on this list still poo-pooing global warming?)
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Mon Jul 18 23:51:22 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:51:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
In-Reply-To: <42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com>
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu> <42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

What race, pray tell???  It just so happens I have been given a lifetime gift 
certificate of use of the word "boy" by that god-given privilege and mystery 
of being a mother...Not ONLY ill-use comes with the job...

And there will be NO excuses, sir.  Any old photo will do.  You know damn well 
the State Department knows what you look like by now...!

Anyhow, I am rather howling over your last lines...good one, parcelli

Quoting Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>:

> Kerry. 'Boy' is racist. There are several pictures of our handsome, 
> dashing college professor Kent Johnson online. But alas I've been so 
> horribly disfigured by the venereal rampages of American poetry that I 
> dare not even leave my warren without a bird's nest covering my face.
> 
> FIZZ
> 
> Kerry O'Keefe wrote:
> 
> >Finally, I want you boys to send pictures.  Really.  If I have to endure all
> 
> >this bickering, I at least want to match faces with the names.
> >
> >
> >Quoting Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>><Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content.">
> >>
> >>Uche knows whereof he speaks. FIZZ
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Kent Johnson wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." FIZZ
> >>>
> >>>*Fizzzzzzzzz* went the timorous little bully.
> >>>
> >>>(hey, by the way, what's up with this HEAT everywhere? Anyone out there
> >>>on this list still poo-pooing global warming?)
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>New-Poetry mailing list
> >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>New-Poetry mailing list
> >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jul 19 00:08:01 2005
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:08:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
In-Reply-To: <1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu>
	<42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com>	<1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>	<42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <42DC7CA1.50207@ix.netcom.com>

Actually. There is a photo of me online. Check out  the Feb.1999 issue 
of Art Strumpet. Also, remember---

Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that 
it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content."

FIZZ


Kerry O'Keefe wrote:

>What race, pray tell???  It just so happens I have been given a lifetime gift 
>certificate of use of the word "boy" by that god-given privilege and mystery 
>of being a mother...Not ONLY ill-use comes with the job...
>
>And there will be NO excuses, sir.  Any old photo will do.  You know damn well 
>the State Department knows what you look like by now...!
>
>Anyhow, I am rather howling over your last lines...good one, parcelli
>
>Quoting Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>:
>
>  
>
>>Kerry. 'Boy' is racist. There are several pictures of our handsome, 
>>dashing college professor Kent Johnson online. But alas I've been so 
>>horribly disfigured by the venereal rampages of American poetry that I 
>>dare not even leave my warren without a bird's nest covering my face.
>>
>>FIZZ
>>
>>Kerry O'Keefe wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Finally, I want you boys to send pictures.  Really.  If I have to endure all
>>>      
>>>
>>>this bickering, I at least want to match faces with the names.
>>>
>>>
>>>Quoting Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>><Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content.">
>>>>
>>>>Uche knows whereof he speaks. FIZZ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Kent Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>>Uche says "stay well away from this thread. There is a good chance that
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>it is jinxed against ever bearing any useful content." FIZZ
>>>>>
>>>>>*Fizzzzzzzzz* went the timorous little bully.
>>>>>
>>>>>(hey, by the way, what's up with this HEAT everywhere? Anyone out there
>>>>>on this list still poo-pooing global warming?)
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue Jul 19 09:59:15 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:59:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
In-Reply-To: <42DC7CA1.50207@ix.netcom.com>
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu> <42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC7CA1.50207@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0507190956190.1787@shell2.oit.umass.edu>

ah, yes, the inevitable crackle in the FIZZ.

But just remember that famous
blues line,

"your best friend
may leave you, but them blues will still be hanging round..."

consolation everywhere


From tad at opus40.org  Tue Jul 19 10:05:19 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:05:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu>
	<42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com><1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com><1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><42DC7CA1.50207@ix.netcom.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0507190956190.1787@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <002f01c58c6a$e81528d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Send pictures to where?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
To: "Alphaville" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Picture Day


> ah, yes, the inevitable crackle in the FIZZ.
>
> But just remember that famous
> blues line,
>
> "your best friend
> may leave you, but them blues will still be hanging round..."
>
> consolation everywhere
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue Jul 19 10:09:16 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:09:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
In-Reply-To: <002f01c58c6a$e81528d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu> <42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC7CA1.50207@ix.netcom.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0507190956190.1787@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
	<002f01c58c6a$e81528d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1121782156.42dd098c7a094@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

all of us, dammit.

Quoting The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org>:

> Send pictures to where?
> 
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> To: "Alphaville" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
> Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
> 
> 
> > ah, yes, the inevitable crackle in the FIZZ.
> >
> > But just remember that famous
> > blues line,
> >
> > "your best friend
> > may leave you, but them blues will still be hanging round..."
> >
> > consolation everywhere
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 19 10:27:57 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:27:57 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu>
	<42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com><1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com><1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><42DC7CA1.50207@ix.netcom.com><Pine.GSO.4.55.0507190956190.1787@shell2.oit.umass.edu><002f01c58c6a$e81528d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1121782156.42dd098c7a094@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <016101c58c6e$0f1fca40$19af3252@ANNY>

....Llovelly....

cheers, Anny


From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:09 PM


> all of us, dammit.
> 
> Quoting The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org>:
> 
>> Send pictures to where?
>> 
>> 
>> Tad Richards
>> www.opus40.org
>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue Jul 19 10:30:56 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:30:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
In-Reply-To: <016101c58c6e$0f1fca40$19af3252@ANNY>
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu> <42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC7CA1.50207@ix.netcom.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0507190956190.1787@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
	<002f01c58c6a$e81528d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1121782156.42dd098c7a094@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<016101c58c6e$0f1fca40$19af3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1121783456.42dd0ea02363d@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

clearly I am saturated with opinions...now I want the visuals

ah midsummer, the slow loss of reason

Quoting Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>:

> ....Llovelly....
> 
> cheers, Anny
> 
> 
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:09 PM
> 
> 
> > all of us, dammit.
> > 
> > Quoting The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org>:
> > 
> >> Send pictures to where?
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Tad Richards
> >> www.opus40.org
> >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> 





From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Tue Jul 19 10:35:06 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:35:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
In-Reply-To: <1121783456.42dd0ea02363d@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu>
	<1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC7CA1.50207@ix.netcom.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0507190956190.1787@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
	<002f01c58c6a$e81528d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1121782156.42dd098c7a094@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<016101c58c6e$0f1fca40$19af3252@ANNY>
	<1121783456.42dd0ea02363d@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <33abf27505071907352a578eff@mail.gmail.com>

I can't speak for everyone, but my midsummer loss of reason is anything but 
slow. 
 Or perhaps we're all waiting for you to start the ball rolling. 


 On 7/19/05, Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu> wrote: 
> 
> clearly I am saturated with opinions...now I want the visuals
> 
> ah midsummer, the slow loss of reason
> 
> Quoting Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>:
> 
> > ....Llovelly....
> >
> > cheers, Anny
> >
> >
> > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:09 PM
> >
> >
> > > all of us, dammit.
> > >
> > > Quoting The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org>:
> > >
> > >> Send pictures to where?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Tad Richards
> > >> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
> > >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 19 10:57:44 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:57:44 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Francesco Petrarca
Message-ID: <019e01c58c72$396a10e0$19af3252@ANNY>

http://www.todayinliterature.com/today.asp?Search_Date=7/19/2005


      On this day in 1374, or perhaps the day before, Petrarch died; and tomorrow is the 701st anniversary of his birth. He was a friend and contemporary of Boccaccio, and a generation younger than Dante -- both Dante's and Petrarch's father were expelled from Florence in the same year -- but Petrarch's most formative relationship was the one he never had with "Laura." Though some scholars hold that she was only an idealization, others think that she was not only real but an ancestor of the Marquis de Sade. Petrarch seems to have noted the date of his first glance -- April 6th, 1327; while at church, in Avignon, France -- on the flyleaf of his copy of Virgil. The 366 love poems written over the next decade, in the vernacular rather than classical Latin, would bring fame to the poet, a new lyrical form to literature, and precedent to a lot of later plainting.

      Petrarch dated his renunciation of sensual pleasures to about 1348, the year Laura died in the Plague. He devoted himself to spiritual matters, the search for and study of classic texts, and to being a roving poet-diplomat. Much of the later writing was as letters, not in the personal sense but as exercises in the genre. Thus we have letters sent backwards to Cicero and a "Letter to Posterity" sent forward to us. Here we learn that he was "comely enough" in youth, annoyed by having to wear glasses in age, and thankful for the mid-life turnaround:

        I struggled in my younger days with a keen but constant and pure attachment, and would have struggled with it longer had not the sinking flame been extinguished by death -- premature and bitter, but salutary. I should be glad to be able to say that I had always been entirely free from irregular desires, but I should lie if I did so. . . . As I approached the age of forty, while my powers were unimpaired and my passions were still strong, I not only abruptly threw off my bad habits, but even the very recollection of them, as if I had never looked upon a woman. This I mention as among the greatest of my blessings, and I render thanks to God, who freed me, while still sound and vigorous, from a disgusting slavery which had always been hateful to me. But let us turn to other matters. 
      Petrarch's death at age seventy seems to have rounded off the life, and the image we have of him as father of Renaissance Humanism: he was found in the morning in his study, slumped over a manuscript of Virgil. But who knows what he was thinking; this is Sonnet 90 ("She used to let her golden hair fly free"), translated by Morris Bishop:

        She used to let her golden hair fly free
        for the wind to toy and tangle and molest.
        Her eyes were brighter than the radiant west.
        (Seldom they shine so now.) I used to see
        pity look out of those deep eyes on me.
        ("It was false pity," you would now protest.)
        I had love's tinder heaped within my breast;
        What wonder that the flame burned furiously?
        She did not walk in any mortal way,
        but with angelic progress. When she spoke,
        unearthly voices sang in unison.
        She seemed divine among the dreary folk
        of earth. You say she is not so today?
        Well, though the bow's unbent, the wound bleeds on.   
     
        
      - SK  
       

______________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 19 11:07:12 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:07:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Francesco Petrarca
In-Reply-To: <019e01c58c72$396a10e0$19af3252@ANNY>
References: <019e01c58c72$396a10e0$19af3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <734abcd9cd025222e46e5d023a26172b@earthlink.net>

Anny, your note on Petrarch reminded me of a long-ago
visit to the little house in Arqu? where he lived. I especially
remember his cat, stuffed and mounted in a niche above a
doorway in the house.

Anyway, the memory started me off on a Google expedition
that turned up this charming page:

http://www.library.yale.edu/beinecke/brbleduc/petrarch/27.html

Hal

Today's Special

Theory of Harmony
http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

On Jul 19, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> http://www.todayinliterature.com/today.asp?Search_Date=7/19/2005
> ?
> ?
> On this day in 1374, or perhaps the day before, Petrarch died; and 
> tomorrow is the 701st anniversary of his birth. He was a friend and 
> contemporary of Boccaccio, and a generation younger than Dante -- both 
> Dante's and Petrarch's father were expelled from Florence in the same 
> year -- but Petrarch's most formative relationship was the one he 
> never had with "Laura." Though some scholars hold that she was only an 
> idealization, others think that she was not only real but an ancestor 
> of the Marquis de Sade. Petrarch seems to have noted the date of his 
> first glance -- April 6th, 1327; while at church, in Avignon, France 
> -- on the flyleaf of his copy of Virgil. The 366 love poems written 
> over the next decade, in the vernacular rather than classical Latin, 
> would bring fame to the poet, a new lyrical form to literature, and 
> precedent to a lot of later plainting.
>
> Petrarch dated his renunciation of sensual pleasures to about 1348, 
> the year Laura died in the Plague. He devoted himself to spiritual 
> matters, the search for and study of classic texts, and to being a 
> roving poet-diplomat. Much of the later writing was as letters, not in 
> the personal sense but as exercises in the genre. Thus we have letters 
> sent backwards to Cicero and a "Letter to Posterity" sent forward to 
> us. Here we learn that he was "comely enough" in youth, annoyed by 
> having to wear glasses in age, and thankful for the mid-life 
> turnaround:
>
> I struggled in my younger days with a keen but constant and pure 
> attachment, and would have struggled with it longer had not the 
> sinking flame been extinguished by death -- premature and bitter, but 
> salutary. I should be glad to be able to say that I had always been 
> entirely free from irregular desires, but I should lie if I did so. . 
> . . As I approached the age of forty, while my powers were unimpaired 
> and my passions were still strong, I not only abruptly threw off my 
> bad habits, but even the very recollection of them, as if I had never 
> looked upon a woman. This I mention as among the greatest of my 
> blessings, and I render thanks to God, who freed me, while still sound 
> and vigorous, from a disgusting slavery which had always been hateful 
> to me. But let us turn to other matters.
> Petrarch's death at age seventy seems to have rounded off the life, 
> and the image we have of him as father of Renaissance Humanism: he was 
> found in the morning in his study, slumped over a manuscript of 
> Virgil. But who knows what he was thinking; this is Sonnet 90 ("She 
> used to let her golden hair fly free"), translated by Morris Bishop:
>
> She used to let her golden hair fly free
> for the wind to toy and tangle and molest.
> Her eyes were brighter than the radiant west.
> (Seldom they shine so now.) I used to see
> pity look out of those deep eyes on me.
> ("It was false pity," you would now protest.)
> I had love's tinder heaped within my breast;
> What wonder that the flame burned furiously?
> She did not walk in any mortal way,
> but with angelic progress. When she spoke,
> unearthly voices sang in unison.
> She seemed divine among the dreary folk
> of earth. You say she is not so today?
> Well, though the bow's unbent, the wound bleeds on.
>  <image.tiff><image.tiff>?
> ?
> ? SK?
> ?
> ?
> ______________________________________________
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a 
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> <spacer.gif>_______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 19 11:21:41 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:21:41 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Francesco Petrarca
References: <019e01c58c72$396a10e0$19af3252@ANNY>
	<734abcd9cd025222e46e5d023a26172b@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <01b701c58c75$90f22de0$19af3252@ANNY>

Thank you Hal,

I have never been to Arqu?, and it is even close to here...
And this is a most beautiful page, thank you,

Anny

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 5:07 PM


> Anny, your note on Petrarch reminded me of a long-ago
> visit to the little house in Arqu? where he lived. I especially
> remember his cat, stuffed and mounted in a niche above a
> doorway in the house.
>
> Anyway, the memory started me off on a Google expedition
> that turned up this charming page:
>
> http://www.library.yale.edu/beinecke/brbleduc/petrarch/27.html
>
> Hal
>
> Today's Special
>
> Theory of Harmony
> http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf
>
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> On Jul 19, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>> http://www.todayinliterature.com/today.asp?Search_Date=7/19/2005
>>
>>
>> On this day in 1374, or perhaps the day before, Petrarch died; and 
>> tomorrow is the 701st anniversary of his birth. He was a friend and 
>> contemporary of Boccaccio, and a generation younger than Dante -- both 
>> Dante's and Petrarch's father were expelled from Florence in the same 
>> year -- but Petrarch's most formative relationship was the one he never 
>> had with "Laura." Though some scholars hold that she was only an 
>> idealization, others think that she was not only real but an ancestor of 
>> the Marquis de Sade. Petrarch seems to have noted the date of his first 
>> glance -- April 6th, 1327; while at church, in Avignon, France -- on the 
>> flyleaf of his copy of Virgil. The 366 love poems written over the next 
>> decade, in the vernacular rather than classical Latin, would bring fame 
>> to the poet, a new lyrical form to literature, and precedent to a lot of 
>> later plainting.
>>
>> Petrarch dated his renunciation of sensual pleasures to about 1348, the 
>> year Laura died in the Plague. He devoted himself to spiritual matters, 
>> the search for and study of classic texts, and to being a roving 
>> poet-diplomat. Much of the later writing was as letters, not in the 
>> personal sense but as exercises in the genre. Thus we have letters sent 
>> backwards to Cicero and a "Letter to Posterity" sent forward to us. Here 
>> we learn that he was "comely enough" in youth, annoyed by having to wear 
>> glasses in age, and thankful for the mid-life turnaround:
>>
>> I struggled in my younger days with a keen but constant and pure 
>> attachment, and would have struggled with it longer had not the sinking 
>> flame been extinguished by death -- premature and bitter, but salutary. I 
>> should be glad to be able to say that I had always been entirely free 
>> from irregular desires, but I should lie if I did so. . . . As I 
>> approached the age of forty, while my powers were unimpaired and my 
>> passions were still strong, I not only abruptly threw off my bad habits, 
>> but even the very recollection of them, as if I had never looked upon a 
>> woman. This I mention as among the greatest of my blessings, and I render 
>> thanks to God, who freed me, while still sound and vigorous, from a 
>> disgusting slavery which had always been hateful to me. But let us turn 
>> to other matters.
>> Petrarch's death at age seventy seems to have rounded off the life, and 
>> the image we have of him as father of Renaissance Humanism: he was found 
>> in the morning in his study, slumped over a manuscript of Virgil. But who 
>> knows what he was thinking; this is Sonnet 90 ("She used to let her 
>> golden hair fly free"), translated by Morris Bishop:
>>
>> She used to let her golden hair fly free
>> for the wind to toy and tangle and molest.
>> Her eyes were brighter than the radiant west.
>> (Seldom they shine so now.) I used to see
>> pity look out of those deep eyes on me.
>> ("It was false pity," you would now protest.)
>> I had love's tinder heaped within my breast;
>> What wonder that the flame burned furiously?
>> She did not walk in any mortal way,
>> but with angelic progress. When she spoke,
>> unearthly voices sang in unison.
>> She seemed divine among the dreary folk
>> of earth. You say she is not so today?
>> Well, though the bow's unbent, the wound bleeds on.
>>  <image.tiff><image.tiff> ? SK 
>> ______________________________________________
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing 
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche 




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Jul 19 11:21:11 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:21:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Larry Levis
Message-ID: <731bb17a05071908211c6c0175@mail.gmail.com>

In 1967
Larry Levis
from *Elegy, *University of Pittsburgh Press, 1997
 Some called it the Summer of Love, & although the clustered,
Motionless leaves that overhung the streets looked the same
As ever, the same as they did every summer, in 1967,
Anybody with three dollars could have a vision.
And who wouldn't want to know what it felt like to be
A ceder waxwing landing with a flutter of gray wings
In a spruce tree, & then disappearing into it,
For only three dollars? And now I know; its flight is ecstasy.
No matter how I look at it, I also now know that
The short life of a cedar waxwing is more pure pleasure
Than anyone alive can still be sane, & bear.
And remember, a cedar waxwing doesn't mean a thing,
*Qua *cedar or *qua *waxwing, nor could it have earned
That kind of pleasure by working to become a better
Cedar waxwing. They're all the same.
Show me a bad cedar waxwing, for example, & I mean
A really morally corrupted cedar waxwing, & you'll commend
The cage they have reserved for you, resembling heaven.

Some people spent their lives then, having visions.
But in my case, the morning after I dropped mescaline
I had to spray Johnson grass in a vineyard of Thompson Seedless
My father owned--& so, still feeling the holiness of all things
Living, holding the spray gun in one hand & driving with the other,
The tractor pulling the spray rig & its sputtering motor--
Row after row, I sprayed each weed I found
That looked enough like Johnson grass, a thing alive that's good
For nothing at all, with a mixture of malathion & diesel fuel,
And said to each tall weed, as I coated it with a lethal mist,
*Dominus vobiscum*, &, sometimes, *mea culpa*, until
It seemed boring to apologize to weeds, & insincere as well.
For in a day or so, no more than that, the weeds would turn
Disgusting hues of yellowish orange & wither away. I still felt
The bird's flight in my body when I thought about it, the wing ache,
Lifting heaven, locating itself somewhere just above my slumped
Shoulders, & part of me taking wind. I'd feel it at odd moments
After that on those long days I spent shoveling vines, driving trucks
And tractors, helping swamp fruit out of one orchard
Or another, but as the summer went on, I felt it less and less.

As the summer went on, some were drafted, some enlisted
In a generation that would not stop falling, a generation
Of leaves sticking to body bags, & when they turned them
Over, they floated back to us on television, even then,
In the Summer of Love, in 1967,
When riot police waited beyond the doors of perception,
And the best thing one could do was get arrested. 
   Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 19 11:32:35 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:32:35 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Francesco Petrarca
References: <019e01c58c72$396a10e0$19af3252@ANNY><734abcd9cd025222e46e5d023a26172b@earthlink.net>
	<01b701c58c75$90f22de0$19af3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <01bf01c58c77$17b10080$19af3252@ANNY>

Hi Hal,

sorry, this picture made me remember that I _was_ there on the occasion of a 
Filmfestival years ago:

http://www.arquapetrarca.com/home.asp

a most beautiful town. It was round the end of October, maybe November, 
dark, a little wet, all Medieval, distanced in time.

I remember,
thank you, Anny

From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 5:21 PM


> Thank you Hal,
>
> I have never been to Arqu?, and it is even close to here...
> And this is a most beautiful page, thank you,
>
> Anny
>
> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 5:07 PM
>
>
>> Anny, your note on Petrarch reminded me of a long-ago
>> visit to the little house in Arqu? where he lived. I especially
>> remember his cat, stuffed and mounted in a niche above a
>> doorway in the house.
>>
>> Anyway, the memory started me off on a Google expedition
>> that turned up this charming page:
>>
>> http://www.library.yale.edu/beinecke/brbleduc/petrarch/27.html
>>
>> Hal
>>
>> Today's Special
>>
>> Theory of Harmony
>> http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> halvard at earthlink.net
>> halvard at gmail.com
>> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>>
>> On Jul 19, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.todayinliterature.com/today.asp?Search_Date=7/19/2005
>>>
>>>
>>> On this day in 1374, or perhaps the day before, Petrarch died; and 
>>> tomorrow is the 701st anniversary of his birth. He was a friend and 
>>> contemporary of Boccaccio, and a generation younger than Dante -- both 
>>> Dante's and Petrarch's father were expelled from Florence in the same 
>>> year -- but Petrarch's most formative relationship was the one he never 
>>> had with "Laura." Though some scholars hold that she was only an 
>>> idealization, others think that she was not only real but an ancestor of 
>>> the Marquis de Sade. Petrarch seems to have noted the date of his first 
>>> glance -- April 6th, 1327; while at church, in Avignon, France -- on the 
>>> flyleaf of his copy of Virgil. The 366 love poems written over the next 
>>> decade, in the vernacular rather than classical Latin, would bring fame 
>>> to the poet, a new lyrical form to literature, and precedent to a lot of 
>>> later plainting.
>>>
>>> Petrarch dated his renunciation of sensual pleasures to about 1348, the 
>>> year Laura died in the Plague. He devoted himself to spiritual matters, 
>>> the search for and study of classic texts, and to being a roving 
>>> poet-diplomat. Much of the later writing was as letters, not in the 
>>> personal sense but as exercises in the genre. Thus we have letters sent 
>>> backwards to Cicero and a "Letter to Posterity" sent forward to us. Here 
>>> we learn that he was "comely enough" in youth, annoyed by having to wear 
>>> glasses in age, and thankful for the mid-life turnaround:
>>>
>>> I struggled in my younger days with a keen but constant and pure 
>>> attachment, and would have struggled with it longer had not the sinking 
>>> flame been extinguished by death -- premature and bitter, but salutary. 
>>> I should be glad to be able to say that I had always been entirely free 
>>> from irregular desires, but I should lie if I did so. . . . As I 
>>> approached the age of forty, while my powers were unimpaired and my 
>>> passions were still strong, I not only abruptly threw off my bad habits, 
>>> but even the very recollection of them, as if I had never looked upon a 
>>> woman. This I mention as among the greatest of my blessings, and I 
>>> render thanks to God, who freed me, while still sound and vigorous, from 
>>> a disgusting slavery which had always been hateful to me. But let us 
>>> turn to other matters.
>>> Petrarch's death at age seventy seems to have rounded off the life, and 
>>> the image we have of him as father of Renaissance Humanism: he was found 
>>> in the morning in his study, slumped over a manuscript of Virgil. But 
>>> who knows what he was thinking; this is Sonnet 90 ("She used to let her 
>>> golden hair fly free"), translated by Morris Bishop:
>>>
>>> She used to let her golden hair fly free
>>> for the wind to toy and tangle and molest.
>>> Her eyes were brighter than the radiant west.
>>> (Seldom they shine so now.) I used to see
>>> pity look out of those deep eyes on me.
>>> ("It was false pity," you would now protest.)
>>> I had love's tinder heaped within my breast;
>>> What wonder that the flame burned furiously?
>>> She did not walk in any mortal way,
>>> but with angelic progress. When she spoke,
>>> unearthly voices sang in unison.
>>> She seemed divine among the dreary folk
>>> of earth. You say she is not so today?
>>> Well, though the bow's unbent, the wound bleeds on.
>>>  <image.tiff><image.tiff> ? SK 
>>> ______________________________________________
>>> Anny Ballardini
>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing 
>>> star!
>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jul 19 12:25:50 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:25:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] more on Maximus
Message-ID: <7a.779c2821.300e838e@aol.com>

 On a serious note, if you haven't read Call me Ishmael you are missing a 
real treat.  Interestingly, the West Indian Marxist scholar C.L.R. James wrote a 
study of Melville at about the same time in which he developed some of the 
same themes Olson did in his little book.  James' book was never published 
because he was jailed and then deported by the U.S. government but I understand it 
was recently published  by some C.L.R. James devotee.  I know these factoids 
are very obscure. 

Henry F. Murray
Livingston, Adler, Pulda, Meiklejohn & Kelly, P.C.
557 Prospect Avenue
Hartford, Connecticut 06105
hfmurray at lapm.org
--
Above note was sent to me by an associate of mine working
on promoting Wallace Stevens in Hartford community...where
like Olson in Glouchester MA, Stevens is not as well known 
as he should be.Whether dead poets can be great resource
for a community as Ed Sanders asserted in that news piece,
is an open question I think. I do think poets can be minor
magnets of cultural tourism, but not dynamos of an economic
engine.

One book I just love owning is the U. of California edition of
The Maximus Poems. It's so large & unwieldy like Olson.
It's a great unkempt mass of poetry and poetic journaling.
It's a book I like to haul down from the bookshelf now & again 
an open randomly...What does it matter what page I begin 
and end my reading on?

In this critical book I'm finishing called _The Material
of Poetry_, Gerald Bruns quotes Gerald Burns (now that's 
confusing): "Any poem teaches you how to read it. A long 
poem teaches you to live with it." Thus I'm happy to cohabitate 
with Maximus.

Here's a note Olson wrote to himself re The Maximus
Poems: "It's all right to be difficult, but you can't be impossible."

Thanks, David Kellogg, for your Olson apologia.
Finnegan

In a message dated 7/18/2005 2:23:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
d.kellogg at neu.edu writes:
it was Paul Lake who wrote: 

> Yet Olson,
> 
> remains a pompous bore. 

Pompous, yes.  More like bombastic, I would say.  Anyway, he knew a lot and 
thought he knew more.  And his persona was as a teacher.  Boring?  I don't 
think so.  I'd take his more interesting failures against the truly boring 
"successes" of some contemporaries.  Ron Reagan Jr. said when his father died that 
his old man crapped bigger turds than George W. Bush.  That's kind of the way I 
feel about Olson with regard to, say, the poems in Rebel Angels.   

Olson wrote some pretty fantastic shorter poems (among which "The 
Kingfishers," "Merce of Egypt," "As the Dead Prey Upon Us," "The Librarian," "Moonset, 
Gloucester, December 1, 1957"), a great book on Melville -- not boring in the 
least! -- some amazing other criticism (in addition to "Projective Verse," which 
has been repeatedly abused and wilfully misrepresented by Lake's New Formie 
colleagues, there is "Human Universe," "Proprioception," "A Bibliography on 
America for Ed Dorn," etc.), a fantastic memoir of his father ("The Post 
Office"), and some of the richest stuff ever written on Pound and St. Elizabeth's.  
And then there's Maximus, which is full of strange passages but also rich 
detail, interesting history, great polemics, early riffs against the emergence of 
advertising society, which Olson saw before most others (besides maybe N! 
athanael West). He's boring to those who have decided to be bored, I guess. 

David Kellogg
Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines
Department of English
465 Holmes Hall
Northeastern University
Boston, MA 02115
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From tad at opus40.org  Tue Jul 19 12:46:48 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:46:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu>
	<42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com><1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com><1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><42DC7CA1.50207@ix.netcom.com><Pine.GSO.4.55.0507190956190.1787@shell2.oit.umass.edu><002f01c58c6a$e81528d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><1121782156.42dd098c7a094@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu><016101c58c6e$0f1fca40$19af3252@ANNY>
	<1121783456.42dd0ea02363d@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <005401c58c81$78281610$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

You can find me here

http://www.cortlandreview.com/issue/17/richards17.html

or here


http://www.cortlandreview.com/issue/24/richards.html#1


How about you, Kerry?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Picture Day


> clearly I am saturated with opinions...now I want the visuals
>
> ah midsummer, the slow loss of reason
>
> Quoting Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>:
>
>> ....Llovelly....
>>
>> cheers, Anny
>>
>>
>> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:09 PM
>>
>>
>> > all of us, dammit.
>> >
>> > Quoting The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org>:
>> >
>> >> Send pictures to where?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Tad Richards
>> >> www.opus40.org
>> >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Jul 19 05:47:05 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:47:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <OF1326C68F.5EA18679-ON85257042.0062ACB5-85257042.0064938C@neu.edu>
Message-ID: <BF023649.98BF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/18/05 1:18 PM, "d.kellogg at neu.edu" <d.kellogg at neu.edu> wrote:

> "Projective Verse," which has been repeatedly abused and wilfully
> misrepresented by Lake's New Formie colleagues, there is "Human Universe,"
> "Proprioception," "A Bibliography on America for Ed Dorn," etc.),

Give me some credit, David. It was I who wrote ?Verse that Print Bred,? an
analysis of Olson?s ?Projective Verse? essay, as well as further discredited
that truly dumb essay in ?Disorderly Orders: Free Verse, Chaos, and the
Tradition.?

To each his own, but I find the Maximus poems a trial to read, a real tax on
the human attention span, which is the one thing that many avant-garde
writers seem to forget about, imagining that all readers are Marjorie
Perloff looking for some new stylistic molehill to make literary mountain
of.

Paul
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 19 12:49:54 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:49:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] several pictures
Message-ID: <s2dce8f5.073@mail.highland.edu>

Carlo Pacelli said:

>Kerry. 'Boy' is racist. There are several pictures of our handsome,
dashing college professor Kent Johnson online. 


I'll let the frustrated Mr. Pacelli alone with his personal slanders.

But I do have to say: It *is* a bit weird that he has been cruising my
"several pictures" on the web!




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Jul 19 05:51:03 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:51:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <42DBF9DE.9020705@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <BF023737.98C1%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/18/05 1:50 PM, "Alphaville" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> against the ad hominems of an ignoramus like Paul Lake


Good to see you're above ad hominems yourself.  Your contributions to this
list are invariably so well reasoned and temperate I blush for shame at my
transgressions against civility.   



From d.kellogg at neu.edu  Tue Jul 19 13:03:29 2005
From: d.kellogg at neu.edu (d.kellogg at neu.edu)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:03:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 26
Message-ID: <OFAE4B5461.5FC4AA17-ON85257043.005D54AF-85257043.005DB3A4@neu.edu>

Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com> wrote: 

:Thanks for your half-hearted defense, but Charles Olson hardly needs 
:defending against the ad hominems of an ignoramus like Paul Lake. FIZZ

Uh -- you're welcome?  I don't think my defense was "half-hearted."  Why? 
Just b/c I conceded Olson can fit the "pompous" label?  Seriously, WTF?  I 
would have thought my genuine love for Olson came through. 

David Kellogg
Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines
Department of English
465 Holmes Hall
Northeastern University
Boston, MA 02115
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 19 13:16:25 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:16:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <BF023737.98C1%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <42DBF9DE.9020705@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <42DCFD29.30286.949BA3@localhost>

LOL "Sarcasm? What's that?"
M


On 19 Jul 2005 at 4:51, Paul Lake wrote:

> On 7/18/05 1:50 PM, "Alphaville" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> 
> > against the ad hominems of an ignoramus like Paul Lake
> 
> 
> Good to see you're above ad hominems yourself.  Your contributions to this
> list are invariably so well reasoned and temperate I blush for shame at my
> transgressions against civility.   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jul 19 13:37:55 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:37:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] list life goes on
Message-ID: <e1.179e3299.300e9473@aol.com>

Carlo Parcelli has left the list. No need for 
any more tit for tat.
JFinnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jul 19 13:51:54 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:51:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: more on Maximus
Message-ID: <96.2b8e72cf.300e97ba@aol.com>

http://www.lib.uconn.edu/online/research/speclib/ASC/findaids/Olson_C/MSS19690
001.html#d0e40

A cute picture of young Charles in his father's mailbag
http://charlesolson.uconn.edu/Photographs/OlsonPhotographs/images.cfm?PhotoUni
queID=uconn_asc_1969-0001_ph_F008

This is where I snagged that Olson quote.
http://www.lib.uconn.edu/online/research/speclib/ASC/pages/publications/Olson/
EditingMaximus.htm


University of Connecticut Library, not far from where I live has 
an extensive collection of Olson materials.
Finnegan
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue Jul 19 14:04:15 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:04:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] list life goes on
In-Reply-To: <e1.179e3299.300e9473@aol.com>
References: <e1.179e3299.300e9473@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0507191404020.1787@shell2.oit.umass.edu>

I will utterly miss him.  K.




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue Jul 19 14:09:52 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:09:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
In-Reply-To: <005401c58c81$78281610$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <s2dbe695.056@mail.highland.edu> <42DC6C88.4070800@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121743198.42dc715e5fd18@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC729B.30709@ix.netcom.com>
	<1121745082.42dc78bacef73@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<42DC7CA1.50207@ix.netcom.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0507190956190.1787@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
	<002f01c58c6a$e81528d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1121782156.42dd098c7a094@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<016101c58c6e$0f1fca40$19af3252@ANNY>
	<1121783456.42dd0ea02363d@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
	<005401c58c81$78281610$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0507191408470.1787@shell2.oit.umass.edu>


ecco me qua! in Anny's Fiera Lingue Poets Corner

it was a relatively decent hair day...

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=974

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, The Old Mole wrote:

> You can find me here
>
> http://www.cortlandreview.com/issue/17/richards17.html
>
> or here
>
>
> http://www.cortlandreview.com/issue/24/richards.html#1
>
>
> How about you, Kerry?
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Picture Day
>
>
> > clearly I am saturated with opinions...now I want the visuals
> >
> > ah midsummer, the slow loss of reason
> >
> > Quoting Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>:
> >
> >> ....Llovelly....
> >>
> >> cheers, Anny
> >>
> >>
> >> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:09 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> > all of us, dammit.
> >> >
> >> > Quoting The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org>:
> >> >
> >> >> Send pictures to where?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Tad Richards
> >> >> www.opus40.org
> >> >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From Thom424 at aol.com  Tue Jul 19 14:20:55 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:20:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] kooser/pinsky columns
Message-ID: <210.504b227.300e9e87@aol.com>

do folks out there (in new-poetry land) have the same feelings about pinsky's 
weekly poetry column in the *washington post* that they do about kooser's 
*american life in poetry* column/project? does pinsky do a better job of 
introducing poems/poets to newspaper readers? worse job? the same job? just curious 
about what people think of the two since their objectives seem, for the most 
part, similar, though i suspect the audiences/readers are somewhat 
different....my gauge seems to indicate a mostly neutral-to-tolerate/dislike for kooser's 
column among the new-poetry listers, and i know some think kooser the enemy of 
poetry!

you can link to pinsky's column here: 

<
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401580.html>

and kooser's here:   <http://www.americanlifeinpoetry.org/>

also, the summer '05 issue of *the midwest quarterly* (now available) is a 
special all-kooser issue, with appreciative essays and vignettes by a number of 
poets, poems inspired by the life & work of kooser, poems by kooser, and an 
interview with kooser by *mq* editor stephen meats.

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn 56560
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Jul 19 14:55:39 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:55:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Calling David Graham
Message-ID: <731bb17a05071911554392794@mail.gmail.com>

Is David Graham still on this list?
 I haven't seen a post from him in quite some time . . . 

Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Jul 19 15:11:46 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:11:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kathleen Ossip on Yvor Winters
Message-ID: <731bb17a05071912117ba7e19e@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting essay about Yvor Winters posted over at Poetry Daily (
http://www.poems.com/essaossi.htm).
 Kathleen Ossip takes Winters to task for taxonimizing, among other things. 
I find her critique short on logic and long on agenda. I'm no big fan of 
Winters and can say that I've read only a few of his poems. Ossip argues, 
"Winters demanded not logic, not reason: but reassurance. He required not 
coherence but explication. Comfort, really." Like so many critics, she 
conflates aesthetics and politics. She wants us to believe that by not 
preferring the dominant type of poem of his time period, Winters was some 
kind of a backwards, obsolete scholar.
 However, torward the end of the essay, she writes the following, and I find 
myself agreeing:

 Winters said: "This kind of writing is not a 'new kind of poetry,' as it 
has been called perennially since Verlaine discovered it in Rimbaud. It is 
the old kind of poetry with half the meaning removed. Its strangeness comes 
from its thinness."

Now this hits home. Or at least it makes me nervous.

It is amazing how much current prose poetry sounds exactly like passages out 
of *Ulysses*.

Winters spent so much time wondering how a poem works. Is our how so 
transparent?

How could we describe the present period style, various as it is? Varnish of 
Modernism applied to the wall of Romanticism?

Also tragic, and also inevitable and necessary, is the wash of irony on 
every word, image, sentiment. A split self. I grieve it. But I don't trust 
my nostalgia.

Indeed, much contemporary poetry *does* sound the same. But, I have to 
wonder if "how" contemporary poetry "works" is transparent, as Ossip 
implies.
 Thoughts?
  Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 19 15:13:11 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:13:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pro-Olson
Message-ID: <s2dd0a96.033@mail.highland.edu>

David Kellogg, I, for one, thought your brief defense of Olson was
excellent. Of course, Olson *was* incredibly pompous (where is it that
he compares himself to Mao in the Yennan caves? [shades of Silliman
comparing himself and cohorts to the Civil Rights Marchers of the
60's!]), but the pomposity of poets knows no school, so so what on that,
really?

What makes Olson great (note to Paul Lake here, whose essays I truly
enjoy, no less than I do William Logan's in The New Criterion, say), is
not just his poetry, which is not as great as that of some of those who
came, like Creeley or Duncan, to his call; what makes him great is the
whole system and its touch-down in time, the tornado of energy that was
his mind and his weird learning, how that funnel steered itself through
the gated-suburb of late-New Criticism, showing *most* of the fancy
dwellings there to be so much pre-fab, sadly standard things built on
long-neglected native ground. (The "New Formalism," fetching as some of
its eccentric structures are, could be historicized, I think, as a
belated camp town made out of the wreckage of that storm...) 

It's Olson who pretty much initiates the second great rennaissance of
20th century American poetry. Both of those events arose and flowered in
opposition to traditional prosodies that had become academic, formulaic
and controlling. As increasing numbers of poets are starting to realize,
things are a bit different now, and the first rennaissance of 21st
century U.S. poetry will inevitably be carried out against the current
of a diffuse (and increasingly diffused) Language/"Post-avant"
ideology--one that is, even if seemingly less cohesive for lack of a
distance, now more or less the New Criticism of our time. 

Kent


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 19 16:20:33 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:20:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Calling David Graham
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05071911554392794@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a05071911554392794@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ab2acc3c837e5ccb0e39c3a9131c8ed@earthlink.net>

David's usually rusticating in the Adirondacks
this time of year.

Hal

Today's Special

The Sonnet Project
http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

On Jul 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> Is David Graham still on this list?
> ?
> I haven't seen a post from him in quite some time . . .
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> -- 
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? --Miguel de Unamuno
>
> Blog:??http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>
> ?_______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 19 16:29:35 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:29:35 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The accident
Message-ID: <010501c58ca0$945854c0$897c3652@ANNY>

An accident under my windows, kids with those motorbikes competing in an almost empty town the streets straight mad on the accelerators someone bumped somewhere and then another round and another

and this time another bump and someone screamed _Mamma_ and there was the taste of blood in the air and I looked out and these two bodies on the asphalt one got up after a while the ambulances police television newspaper people and people

a girl with those sequins glittering the friend of the one that got up speaking with the cop another cop he was sort of father-like was kind shocked asked someone spoke I don't know what



_________________________________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From d.kellogg at neu.edu  Tue Jul 19 16:38:29 2005
From: d.kellogg at neu.edu (d.kellogg at neu.edu)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:38:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pro-Olson
Message-ID: <OF126EC5C1.DBF58D0B-ON85257043.00712522-85257043.007162BD@neu.edu>

Kent, 

Thanks.  I think your analysis is astute, though I've never been able 
quite to get the greatness of Duncan.  (I may have a bias against his way 
of thinking.) 

David Kellogg
Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines
Department of English
465 Holmes Hall
Northeastern University
Boston, MA 02115




"Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
07/19/2005 03:13 PM

 
        To:     <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        Pro-Olson


David Kellogg, I, for one, thought your brief defense of Olson was
excellent. Of course, Olson *was* incredibly pompous (where is it that
he compares himself to Mao in the Yennan caves? [shades of Silliman
comparing himself and cohorts to the Civil Rights Marchers of the
60's!]), but the pomposity of poets knows no school, so so what on that,
really?

What makes Olson great (note to Paul Lake here, whose essays I truly
enjoy, no less than I do William Logan's in The New Criterion, say), is
not just his poetry, which is not as great as that of some of those who
came, like Creeley or Duncan, to his call; what makes him great is the
whole system and its touch-down in time, the tornado of energy that was
his mind and his weird learning, how that funnel steered itself through
the gated-suburb of late-New Criticism, showing *most* of the fancy
dwellings there to be so much pre-fab, sadly standard things built on
long-neglected native ground. (The "New Formalism," fetching as some of
its eccentric structures are, could be historicized, I think, as a
belated camp town made out of the wreckage of that storm...) 

It's Olson who pretty much initiates the second great rennaissance of
20th century American poetry. Both of those events arose and flowered in
opposition to traditional prosodies that had become academic, formulaic
and controlling. As increasing numbers of poets are starting to realize,
things are a bit different now, and the first rennaissance of 21st
century U.S. poetry will inevitably be carried out against the current
of a diffuse (and increasingly diffused) Language/"Post-avant"
ideology--one that is, even if seemingly less cohesive for lack of a
distance, now more or less the New Criticism of our time. 

Kent


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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jul 19 17:39:20 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:39:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Philosophy Conference
Message-ID: <83.2bdf2638.300ecd08@aol.com>

At the University of Hartford in late October they're
planning a conference on Poetry & Philosophy
(or Philosophy & Poetry, depending which side gets
the upperhand). I'm kinding of helping with their plans 
(even though I've no credentials for such things). 
So here's my question. I've mentioned names like John 
Koethe, Emily Grosholz, Allen Grossman, Susan Howe, 
Richard Howard (translated EM Cioran), Gerald Bruns 
(who I spoke of earlier today), Simon Critchley, and a 
few other names, but do you have any ideas for good 
speakers, people who have written papers/essays/books 
on this subject? Or just pass on this information to those
who might have a taste for this subject and be interested 
in attending. I believe the dates are October 21-22nd.
Finnegan
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Jul 19 17:52:50 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:52:50 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Calling David Graham
In-Reply-To: <4ab2acc3c837e5ccb0e39c3a9131c8ed@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <F99F.FE1%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Yup, just when you thought I couldn't *get* more rusticated, here I am
gnawing on bark and practicing my loon calls for a month or so in the north
woods.

I'm still subscribed, and reading posts as I can, but my laptop here in the
Philosopher's Camp is powered by oxen, and, well, the sullen beasts are
balky at times.

Anyway, nice to be missed!  Here's a poem for your kind attention--



Recipe for Trouble

In an empty bathroom
with a good echo, wipe
and slice some young
cucumbers while screaming
at the tops of your lungs:
"I've boned more chickens
than you've ever even seen!"
Wash your hands in a nicely
flavored meat stock
while listening to radio
accounts of investigators
searching a muddy bean field
for clues to the cause
of a major plane wreck.
Bruise some shallots.
Bring the shallots 
and cucumbers into the kitchen
and put them down the garbage
disposal. Leave it running
for mood music. Bone
yet another frying hen
and throw her out the window
into your creepy neighbor's
garden, where she'll regain
feathers, innards and skeleton,
cackle back to life and start
pecking bugs off the shrubs.
Then whip up a batch of
really eggy french toast.
Lay sections from a letter
that was never responded
to on top of the hot toast
slices and pour melted butter
over each. Take the handkerchief
of a pastor who's recently
delivered a beautiful
tearjerking eulogy 
and boil till gelatinous.
Skim off the grease.
Serve with looter's spittle,
croutons, the eyelashes of a man
who hallucinates nonstop,
slices of peeled lemon
and a glass of port wine.

--Amy Gerstler




on 7/19/05 3:20 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote:

> David's usually rusticating in the Adirondacks
> this time of year.
> 
> Hal
> 
> Today's Special
> 
> The Sonnet Project
> http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
> 
> On Jul 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 
>> Is David Graham still on this list?
>> ?
>> I haven't seen a post from him in quite some time . . .
>> 
>> Jeff Newberry
>> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 19 19:50:44 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:50:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Philosophy conference
Message-ID: <s2dd4ba3.047@mail.highland.edu>

James,

Mikhail Epstein is widely regarded to be one of Russia's major literary
theorists, compared for his originality more than a few times by other
scholars to Bakhtin, Eco, and Derrida. He is a trained philosopher and
has published numerous works in that area, as well. His first book in
English, After the Future: The Paradoxes of Postmodernism and
Contemporary Russian Culture, gives a good idea of the range and
energies of his thought. His most recent book is on secret Russian
religious sects during the Soviet period and their strange and
ultra-poetic philosophies. You can also find a feature article on him in
the archives of The Chronicle of Higher Education--I believe this was
last year or later 2003.

Anyway, he would be an excellent contributor to the conference. You can
reach him at  russmne at emory.edu 

Kent
*

James wrote:

>At the University of Hartford in late October they're
planning a conference on Poetry & Philosophy
(or Philosophy & Poetry, depending which side gets
the upperhand). I'm kinding of helping with their plans 
(even though I've no credentials for such things). 
So here's my question. I've mentioned names like John 
Koethe, Emily Grosholz, Allen Grossman, Susan Howe, 
Richard Howard (translated EM Cioran), Gerald Bruns 
(who I spoke of earlier today), Simon Critchley, and a 
few other names, but do you have any ideas for good 
speakers, people who have written papers/essays/books 
on this subject? Or just pass on this information to those
who might have a taste for this subject and be interested 
in attending. I believe the dates are October 21-22nd.



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 19 21:15:36 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:15:36 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] kooser/pinsky columns
Message-ID: <200507192352.j6JNqMKE351678@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

actually tom---i'd love to hear you give a shot at your own questions if you
wouldn't mind....

thanks,
C

----------
From: Thom424 at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] kooser/pinsky columns
Date: Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 10:20 AM


do folks out there (in new-poetry land) have the same feelings about
pinsky's weekly poetry column in the *washington post* that they do about
kooser's *american life in poetry* column/project? does pinsky do a better
job of introducing poems/poets to newspaper readers? worse job? the same
job?
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 19 21:21:10 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:21:10 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Philosophy Conference
Message-ID: <200507192357.j6JNvxc4255286@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Gosh, I'm tempted here to plug my own (largely unpublished but for an 
excerpt here and there) dissertation on Shakespeare's comedies which has
some lengthy passages that could easily be made into "paper/talk" size on
the debate about the relationship of philosophy (and what's now called
"theory") to poetry (or, well, literature in the broader sense, if some
purists don't want to grant Shakespeare's plays the "status" of poetry)---as
a way to question the standard academic procedure of reading literature
through a philosophical "lens" as it were, and whether or not that
relationship can, and/or should, be inverted (as in, say, Harold Bloom's
quote when he was asked if he would do a Freudian reading of Shakespeare and
he replied it'd be better to do a Shakespearean reading of Freud)....
        But I wont, because that would be shameless self-promotion I
suppose....

C

----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Philosophy Conference
Date: Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 1:39 PM


At the University of Hartford in late October they're
planning a conference on Poetry & Philosophy
(or Philosophy & Poetry, depending which side gets
the upperhand). I'm kinding of helping with their plans
(even though I've no credentials for such things).
So here's my question. I've mentioned names like John
Koethe, Emily Grosholz, Allen Grossman, Susan Howe,
Richard Howard (translated EM Cioran), Gerald Bruns
(who I spoke of earlier today), Simon Critchley, and a
few other names, but do you have any ideas for good
speakers, people who have written papers/essays/books
on this subject? Or just pass on this information to those
who might have a taste for this subject and be interested
in attending. I believe the dates are October 21-22nd.
Finnegan
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 19 20:03:47 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:03:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another "Recipe for Trouble"
Message-ID: <s2dd4eb8.051@mail.highland.edu>

Well, after reading David Graham's post with the recipe poem from Amy
Gerstler, I can't resist sharing my own poetic recipe. It seems apropos,
especially given the "rustic" origins of David's missive:


For a Poetry Dinner Party

      --for Amy Gerstler and David Graham, lost in the northwoods...


When preparing Squirrel Head Cheese Surprise as an appetizer, it is
best to do so in the spring, for it is in this season that these fine
creatures are most delectable inside, energized and plumped as they are
by the nuts they have saved throughout the winter. For a party of four,
sixteen heads will do. Sever the heads, wash them with soap to remove
all parasites in the fur, and pull the skin down around the cavity at
the base, sewing as you would a hen for roasting. Now drop them into a
pot of boiling water for up to four hours and go about your chores,
perhaps taking the time to prepare other things for the gathering, or to
make, even, a centerpiece of wildflowers, should you be so lucky to have
them handy. After this extended boiling time (don't forget to set the
timer!) the skin and flesh should peel off easily down to the skull.
Simply pull off, sutures and all, making sure the cavity is positioned
upward, lest the cheeses spill out. Now take an empty egg carton and
place the skulls (they should be white as fresh eggs!) cavity-side up.
Stuff each cavity with a wad of fresh bacon. Now place the skulls in a
baking dish (a tin-foil bottom is a good idea, as it saves quite a bit
of clean-up time) and bake, uncovered, at 375 degrees for two hours.
Remove and put four skulls on each plate, garnishing with parsley or
other herb. Instruct your guests (incidentally, this is a fine dish to
serve when having post-avant poets with a graduate specialization in the
19th century over to dinner, especially those from New York or
Philadelphia, unaccustomed as they are to Midwestern fare!) in how to
use the nutcrackers. Simply say, in a casual voice, "You just crack it
open like a walnut." Then, after doing this yourself, show them how to
directly suck out the cheeses from the fissure created by the
nutcracker. You may say, dreamily, before doing so: "Imagine, if you
can, the scarlet phlegm of Keats," or you may say, in French, "Think
of Rimbaud, coughing up a lunch of fresh oysters and wine." Then,
having sucked, take a swallow from your drink (a dry chardonnay is best
with this appetizer) and then watch your guests do the same, putting
special attention on the poet whom you secretly desire. If he or she is
awkward on the first try (this is likely), quickly say "Oh, dear!" and
get up, take his or her napkin, and dab the cheeses and juice away from
the chin. Then, taking a second skull, crack it for him or her, and
raise the fissure to the mouth of the object of your desire (hopefully
he or she will not just be sexy, but also have connections that will
lead to a publication for you!) and beg him or her to suck. Whisper this
word "suck," while closing your eyes and pressing your buttocks tightly
together with all of your might. If the weather is agreeable, make sure
the windows are open, for the sake of the breeze and for the songbirds.
Pull out the wadded up bacon, which will still be soft, to mop up any
cheeses spilled onto the plate.

You will be a hit with your guests!


--Kent Johnson




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue Jul 19 21:49:47 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:49:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The accident
In-Reply-To: <010501c58ca0$945854c0$897c3652@ANNY>
References: <010501c58ca0$945854c0$897c3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1121824187.42ddadbb1ebc6@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>

I am so so sorry Anny.  FOr them and you.  Every parent's worst nightmare...Try 
and comfort yourself somehow.  Best, best best, Kerry





Quoting Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>:

> An accident under my windows, kids with those motorbikes competing in an
> almost empty town the streets straight mad on the accelerators someone bumped
> somewhere and then another round and another
> 
> and this time another bump and someone screamed _Mamma_ and there was the
> taste of blood in the air and I looked out and these two bodies on the
> asphalt one got up after a while the ambulances police television newspaper
> people and people
> 
> a girl with those sequins glittering the friend of the one that got up
> speaking with the cop another cop he was sort of father-like was kind shocked
> asked someone spoke I don't know what
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________
> 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star!
> 
> Friedrich Nietzsche 
> 





From tad at opus40.org  Tue Jul 19 22:00:53 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:00:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Calling David Graham
References: <F99F.FE1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <004501c58cce$e045ce70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

David - detour down south a little to the Catskills and say hello before you 
head back to the Midwest.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 01, 1904 6:45 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Calling David Graham


Yup, just when you thought I couldn't *get* more rusticated, here I am
gnawing on bark and practicing my loon calls for a month or so in the north
woods.

I'm still subscribed, and reading posts as I can, but my laptop here in the
Philosopher's Camp is powered by oxen, and, well, the sullen beasts are
balky at times.

Anyway, nice to be missed!  Here's a poem for your kind attention--



Recipe for Trouble

In an empty bathroom
with a good echo, wipe
and slice some young
cucumbers while screaming
at the tops of your lungs:
"I've boned more chickens
than you've ever even seen!"
Wash your hands in a nicely
flavored meat stock
while listening to radio
accounts of investigators
searching a muddy bean field
for clues to the cause
of a major plane wreck.
Bruise some shallots.
Bring the shallots
and cucumbers into the kitchen
and put them down the garbage
disposal. Leave it running
for mood music. Bone
yet another frying hen
and throw her out the window
into your creepy neighbor's
garden, where she'll regain
feathers, innards and skeleton,
cackle back to life and start
pecking bugs off the shrubs.
Then whip up a batch of
really eggy french toast.
Lay sections from a letter
that was never responded
to on top of the hot toast
slices and pour melted butter
over each. Take the handkerchief
of a pastor who's recently
delivered a beautiful
tearjerking eulogy
and boil till gelatinous.
Skim off the grease.
Serve with looter's spittle,
croutons, the eyelashes of a man
who hallucinates nonstop,
slices of peeled lemon
and a glass of port wine.

--Amy Gerstler




on 7/19/05 3:20 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote:

> David's usually rusticating in the Adirondacks
> this time of year.
>
> Hal
>
> Today's Special
>
> The Sonnet Project
> http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf
>
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> On Jul 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote:
>
>> Is David Graham still on this list?
>>
>> I haven't seen a post from him in quite some time . . .
>>
>> Jeff Newberry
>>


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul 20 03:34:36 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:34:36 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The accident
References: <010501c58ca0$945854c0$897c3652@ANNY>
	<1121824187.42ddadbb1ebc6@mail-www2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <004301c58cfd$7ae57600$2fe83652@ANNY>


Thank you Kerry. I was shocked and slept miserably. I remember that when I 
was young I was very similar to these kids. That is probably the way the 
wheel goes.

Take care, Anny

From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 3:49 AM


>I am so so sorry Anny.  FOr them and you.  Every parent's worst 
>nightmare...Try
> and comfort yourself somehow.  Best, best best, Kerry
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>:
>
>> An accident under my windows, kids with those motorbikes competing in an
>> almost empty town the streets straight mad on the accelerators someone 
>> bumped
>> somewhere and then another round and another
>>
>> and this time another bump and someone screamed _Mamma_ and there was the
>> taste of blood in the air and I looked out and these two bodies on the
>> asphalt one got up after a while the ambulances police television 
>> newspaper
>> people and people
>>
>> a girl with those sequins glittering the friend of the one that got up
>> speaking with the cop another cop he was sort of father-like was kind 
>> shocked
>> asked someone spoke I don't know what
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________
>>
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing 
>> star!
>>
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul 20 06:31:58 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:31:58 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kyle Gann
Message-ID: <004d01c58d16$4269e400$868f3052@ANNY>


With my thank you to Martin J. Walker who forwarded it to me, Kyle Gann's music:

http://www.kylegann.com/Gannaudio.html


_______________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul 20 09:11:59 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:11:59 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] TOKYOSPACE TOKYO-GA
Message-ID: <003001c58d2c$9c997fb0$10aa3252@ANNY>

I just finished translating this review by Pier Luigi Tazzi for Stefano Cagol, young video artist who was recently in Japan. Besides the complexity of the images, I think it is quite a good text.




TOKYOSPACE TOKYO-GA

 

4. Night flight: the lights of the city mark the surface of earth with their own more or less thick brightness. The closed chamber of renaissance tradition has been defining itself, in a time of technological evolution and of the culture that accompanies it, into a flight cabin that passes through an open uninhabitable space, impracticable without the protection to which technology foresees. Therefore, while at the origin the open space was at risk but not precluded to direct experience, it has increasingly taken over characters of impracticability by converting itself into an empty and obscure space where the same life and its motions are threatened by immediate extinction. Anyhow this space is underlined by lights that are nothing but the reflex of the same point of observation, its analogue multiplied into an invading proliferation: the one who observes is similar to all what emanates light onto the void and hostile open space. Light apparitions and its movements are the appropriate substitute for life and its movements.

 

 

8. The town at night has its own throbs. Each light is the announcement of an event, be it real or only possible. The diverse nature, intensity, tone, quality of the throbs distinguish one town from another: New York, Moscow, Tokyo, or Florence, Paris, London, or again F?s, Naples, Istanbul. D'you know what I mean? (in English in the original version)

 

 

12. Shibuya or Roppongi Crossing. They are not the same thing. By the first, one gets lost without humbling himself into the multiplicity of multitude: everyone is similar to the other and memory gets rid of the identical. By the latter there are still ethnic, clothing, generational identities of a social role and operative function, in an amalgam that keeps distinctions. As through the vision of a kaleidoscope, as by the limpid and elementary sounds of a carillon.

 

 

13. View Deck from the fifty-second floor of the Mori Tower. Vision from the height. As far as the eye can see, towards the bay and beyond, towards the western mountains, beyond which in clear days the conic and appeasing peak of the Fuji Mountain stands out, in the north towards the distant towers of Shinjuku. But also from the height to the low houses and to the Azabu Juban lanes, or to the massive towers of Akasaka. Or still and more vertically and nearby the view lands on the Roppongi Hills area, on Mr. Mori's hanging garden with its tiny rice-field, on the garden of the small temple.

But here everything is given back to a deconstructing cut and gives way to thoughts, as in a cubist composition that denies each perspective, unitary and all-embracing measure which is finally Tokyo's embedded structure, its puzzle, where closeness and distance within the actual space as by both personal and collective history, are adjacent. Lines of strength that are supporting structures, limit and d?cor. Solid floors and transparent walls that contain in a similar way moving figures and floating reflexes.

 

 

14. Antonio Vivaldi's 'Largo' in Winter as the soundtrack for the crossing and the station of Shibuya. The multitude crowds on three fronts, converges to the center and dissolves in the square, into the buildings, on the great streets, on the lanes and into the passages, as a great regular breath. Enormous luminous signs build up the complex architecture of the place. High above maxi-screens give back huge fragments of micro-histories.

Each image doubles and mirrors by converging and loosening among details and wholes, music and noise, harmony and fading.

 

 

Pacinko (Pacinko Makes Me Happy). Repeated innocence and co-action are coupled in a less than judicious manner. The triviality of our daily life is shabbily tinged at the glittering of poor artifices.

That is why there is no more need to compose anything: a direct shot is enough, everything is already there.

 

 

Pier Luigi Tazzi, Capalle, June, 2005.

 

 

____________________________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 20 09:13:35 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:13:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kyle Gann
In-Reply-To: <004d01c58d16$4269e400$868f3052@ANNY>
References: <004d01c58d16$4269e400$868f3052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <83279118d5d7068f6b80b64aa847f765@earthlink.net>

Check out Kyle Gann's writing too. He's been one
of the better writers about the new music scene in
NYC for many years now.

Hal

Today's Special

The Sonnet Project
http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

On Jul 20, 2005, at 6:31 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> ?
> With my thank you to Martin J. Walker who forwarded it to me, Kyle 
> Gann's music:
> ?
> http://www.kylegann.com/Gannaudio.html
> ?
> ?
> _______________________________________
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a 
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From d.kellogg at neu.edu  Wed Jul 20 08:59:15 2005
From: d.kellogg at neu.edu (d.kellogg at neu.edu)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:59:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 28
Message-ID: <OFEC83CB4F.6FCFCE13-ON85257044.004699DF-85257044.00475755@neu.edu>

Paul, I wasn't actually thinking of your essays, which are more 
sophisticated and elaborated, if still (in my view) wrong in significant 
ways (for example, in the ways they connect science & poetics).  But I 
never got around to explaining my reasons way back when, so I'll drop it. 
I was rather thinking of the way Olson's reference to the typewriter (and 
also Williams's notion of the variable foot) kept emerging as chestnuts of 
abuse in early NF criticism.  As I recall, the first edition of Expansive 
Poetry (which contained its own strange pseudoscientific essay, by Turner 
& P?ppel) repeatedly raised those moments merely to mock them, as though 
that were all there was to the poetics of both writers.  (I think you had 
an essay there too, right -- but I don't think it did that.  If I recall, 
your had something to do with the middle class.  But it's been ages, so my 
memory may be off.) 

David Kellogg
Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines
Department of English
465 Holmes Hall
Northeastern University
Boston, MA 02115
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Jul 20 10:58:22 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:58:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] an interesting b-c from Mr. Parcelli
Message-ID: <s2de205a.061@mail.highland.edu>

Since I was called a "racist" here yesterday by the recently departed
Carlo Parcelli, I think it is justifiable to share what I think is a
revealing tid-bit of information: 

This morning I received a back-channel from him, wherein he refers to
me and Paul Lake as the "house niggas" of the list. 

The email is written in "blackface" English. Given its nature, I don't
feel any compunction about sharing this message backchannel with anyone
who would like to see it. 

Kent


From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Wed Jul 20 11:45:30 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:45:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0507201137230.6792@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

I pass this along with some reservation.

However, I think it was ME who was accused of racsim by CP, a fact which
barely penetrated my consciousness.  IN other words, not something I am
going to get worked up about.  But for the Lord's sake, quit trying to get
all the credit, Kent.

As for the political correctness issue - dear Lord, I live in Northampton.
We have undercover cops patrolling for possible infractions.  It gets
tiring beyond belief. But let us say, just for the record,  "Carlo, you
bad, bad boy."  There, I used that racist word again.

At any rate, it seems to me that Carlo's appropriations of these dialects
are going on at a level a little
more complex than what is being acknowledged.  (By the way, apropors of
almost nothing, news from JFK
Middle School, a "wigger" is a white kid that wishes it were
black...brilliant, if I may say so.)

So having forwarded this, I am now going to return to the task of writing
a paragraph on "Shopping for Food" for the incoming Fulbright scholars...

and maybe I will write a haiku.

peace out, dawgs,

Kerry



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:16:43 -0400
From: Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
To: Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
Subject: Re: from a kafir

Kerry. Would you be so kind as to share this with the list?

Let me clarify. House Niggas is the new official terminology for
academic poets issued by the Academy of American Poets. Field Niggas now
refers to non-academy aligned poets like Bob Grumman and myself. The
Academy hopes this will prevent further sniping between the two camps. FIZZ

P.S. I see you finsihed that dump.

Kent Johnson wrote:

> Since I was called a "racist" here yesterday by the recently departed
> Carlo Parcelli, I think it is justifiable to share what I think is a
> revealing tid-bit of information:
> This morning I received a back-channel from him, wherein he refers to
> me and Paul Lake as the "house niggas" of the list.
> The email is written in "blackface" English. Given its nature, I don't
> feel any compunction about sharing this message backchannel with anyone
> who would like to see it.
> Kent
>
>
>


Alphaville wrote:
Kerry,

This is ta let ya know this kafir have done runned off the farm. I don't
'spect Boss Finnegan will scent the dogs on me cause he done never liked
my smell no-how, no-way. Anyway if them house niggas on the lists calls
me to take out the pig offal, you tell 'em ol' Charlie nigger done
runned off into the swamp.

Its like I told Burt Hatlen who runs the Ezra Pound List. I said Burt,
"I just can't justify in my own mind being on an Ezra Pound List that
Ezra Pound would have been thrown off of and banned from." Best, CP





>
>


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Jul 20 04:57:27 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:57:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pro-Olson
In-Reply-To: <200507191414284.SM04068@MAILGATE>
Message-ID: <BF037C27.98E6%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/19/05 2:13 PM, "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

> David Kellogg, I, for one, thought your brief defense of Olson was
> excellent. Of course, Olson *was* incredibly pompous (where is it that
> he compares himself to Mao in the Yennan caves? [shades of Silliman
> comparing himself and cohorts to the Civil Rights Marchers of the
> 60's!]), but the pomposity of poets knows no school, so so what on that,
> really?
> 
> What makes Olson great (note to Paul Lake here, whose essays I truly
> enjoy, no less than I do William Logan's in The New Criterion, say), is
> not just his poetry, which is not as great as that of some of those who
> came, like Creeley or Duncan, to his call; what makes him great is the
> whole system and its touch-down in time, the tornado of energy that was
> his mind and his weird learning, how that funnel steered itself through
> the gated-suburb of late-New Criticism, showing *most* of the fancy
> dwellings there to be so much pre-fab, sadly standard things built on
> long-neglected native ground. (The "New Formalism," fetching as some of
> its eccentric structures are, could be historicized, I think, as a
> belated camp town made out of the wreckage of that storm...)
> 
> It's Olson who pretty much initiates the second great rennaissance of
> 20th century American poetry. Both of those events arose and flowered in
> opposition to traditional prosodies that had become academic, formulaic
> and controlling. As increasing numbers of poets are starting to realize,
> things are a bit different now, and the first rennaissance of 21st
> century U.S. poetry will inevitably be carried out against the current
> of a diffuse (and increasingly diffused) Language/"Post-avant"
> ideology--one that is, even if seemingly less cohesive for lack of a
> distance, now more or less the New Criticism of our time.
> 
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
I do actually agree that Olson is a kind of touchstone for the avant-garde
since he published his seminal essay at mid-century and I think the Norton
anthology on postmodernism is right to start with him. Historically
speaking, he's clearly a seminal author. We just differ on how good his
poetry is--and the tradition that emanates from it (though it really goes
back to Stein and Zukofsky too). I've enjoyed the intellectual challenge of
taking him on, so I can't complain too much. He helped me crystalize some of
my own ideas.

Paul



From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 11:59:31 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:59:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0507201137230.6792@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0507201137230.6792@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <33abf2750507200859754a341c@mail.gmail.com>

"But for the Lord's sake..."
 Hey Kerry, now you're a blasphemer too. Taking the Lord's name in vain... 
tut tut. You should be ashamed. 

 On 7/20/05, Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu> wrote: 
> 
> I pass this along with some reservation.
> 
> However, I think it was ME who was accused of racsim by CP, a fact which
> barely penetrated my consciousness. IN other words, not something I am
> going to get worked up about. But for the Lord's sake, quit trying to get
> all the credit, Kent.
> 
> As for the political correctness issue - dear Lord, I live in Northampton.
> We have undercover cops patrolling for possible infractions. It gets
> tiring beyond belief. But let us say, just for the record, "Carlo, you
> bad, bad boy." There, I used that racist word again.
> 
> At any rate, it seems to me that Carlo's appropriations of these dialects
> are going on at a level a little
> more complex than what is being acknowledged. (By the way, apropors of
> almost nothing, news from JFK
> Middle School, a "wigger" is a white kid that wishes it were
> black...brilliant, if I may say so.)
> 
> So having forwarded this, I am now going to return to the task of writing
> a paragraph on "Shopping for Food" for the incoming Fulbright scholars...
> 
> and maybe I will write a haiku.
> 
> peace out, dawgs,
> 
> Kerry
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:16:43 -0400
> From: Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
> To: Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> Subject: Re: from a kafir
> 
> Kerry. Would you be so kind as to share this with the list?
> 
> Let me clarify. House Niggas is the new official terminology for
> academic poets issued by the Academy of American Poets. Field Niggas now
> refers to non-academy aligned poets like Bob Grumman and myself. The
> Academy hopes this will prevent further sniping between the two camps. 
> FIZZ
> 
> P.S. I see you finsihed that dump.
> 
> Kent Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Since I was called a "racist" here yesterday by the recently departed
> > Carlo Parcelli, I think it is justifiable to share what I think is a
> > revealing tid-bit of information:
> > This morning I received a back-channel from him, wherein he refers to
> > me and Paul Lake as the "house niggas" of the list.
> > The email is written in "blackface" English. Given its nature, I don't
> > feel any compunction about sharing this message backchannel with anyone
> > who would like to see it.
> > Kent
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Alphaville wrote:
> Kerry,
> 
> This is ta let ya know this kafir have done runned off the farm. I don't
> 'spect Boss Finnegan will scent the dogs on me cause he done never liked
> my smell no-how, no-way. Anyway if them house niggas on the lists calls
> me to take out the pig offal, you tell 'em ol' Charlie nigger done
> runned off into the swamp.
> 
> Its like I told Burt Hatlen who runs the Ezra Pound List. I said Burt,
> "I just can't justify in my own mind being on an Ezra Pound List that
> Ezra Pound would have been thrown off of and banned from." Best, CP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Jul 20 04:59:22 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:59:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pro-Olson
In-Reply-To: <OF126EC5C1.DBF58D0B-ON85257043.00712522-85257043.007162BD@neu.edu>
Message-ID: <BF037C9A.98E7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/19/05 3:38 PM, "d.kellogg at neu.edu" <d.kellogg at neu.edu> wrote:

> Thanks.  I think your analysis is astute, though I've never been able quite to
> get the greatness of Duncan.  (I may have a bias against his way of thinking.)

I have a similar problem with the greatness of Duncan. My friend Jim Powell
is a big advocate of Duncan, so I keep going back to look at his work, but,
for one thing, I find the work too Romantic in the pejorative sense. Still,
I?ll go back and look again periodically.

Paul
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Jul 20 12:01:59 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:01:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] an interesting b-c from Mr. Parcelli
References: <s2de205a.061@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <007d01c58d44$5d36c450$d8309b51@Robin>

Kenny Jolson says:

> Since I was called a "racist" here yesterday by the recently departed
> Carlo Parcelli, I think it is justifiable to share what I think is a
> revealing tid-bit of information:
>
> This morning I received a back-channel from him, wherein he refers to
> me and Paul Lake as the "house niggas" of the list.
>
> The email is written in "blackface" English. Given its nature, I don't
> feel any compunction about sharing this message backchannel with anyone
> who would like to see it.

Actually, what threw me, Kent, was that Carlo Parcelli actually managed to
ace *any* images of you.

God, I thought when I was heavily into backtracking you, there *weren't* any
images.

            Nah?

The Ruff Gorilla from Da Noyaux

        "Naga can't bear to see Naga flourish"

Accidentally SWP for Only A Year.

            R.

(Oops -- anyone come on the video of Paul Robeson singing the part of
Bosambo in the one film they made of Edgar Wallace's Sanders books?

Lieutent Tibbetts.)

            <g>





From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Jul 20 12:03:00 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:03:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jen Hofer?
Message-ID: <s2de2f72.063@mail.highland.edu>

Does anyone on the list have an email for the LA poet and translator Jen
Hofer? I am trying to contact her for a translation section I am
editing. Please back channel.

thanks,

Kent


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Jul 20 05:10:18 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:10:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] an interesting b-c from Mr. Parcelli
In-Reply-To: <s2de205a.061@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <BF037F2A.98EF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/20/05 9:58 AM, "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

> Since I was called a "racist" here yesterday by the recently departed
> Carlo Parcelli, I think it is justifiable to share what I think is a
> revealing tid-bit of information:
> 
> This morning I received a back-channel from him, wherein he refers to
> me and Paul Lake as the "house niggas" of the list.
> 
> The email is written in "blackface" English. Given its nature, I don't
> feel any compunction about sharing this message backchannel with anyone
> who would like to see it.
> 
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
 

That may be the first and last time you and I are ever grouped together as
poet-critics. If poetic aesthetics as different as ours can be grouped
together like that in a single ad hominem, maybe we can all join hands and
sing Cumbaya.  

Paul



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Jul 20 13:20:40 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:20:40 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] an interesting b-c from Mr. Parcelli
References: <BF037F2A.98EF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <00d701c58d4f$5b2632d0$d8309b51@Robin>

From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>

> > The email is written in "blackface" English. Given its nature, I don't
> > feel any compunction about sharing this message backchannel with anyone
> > who would like to see it.
> >
> > Kent
>
> That may be the first and last time you and I are ever grouped together as
> poet-critics. If poetic aesthetics as different as ours can be grouped
> together like that in a single ad hominem, maybe we can all join hands and
> sing Cumbaya.
>
> Paul

Or we can all scream, the New Poetry, who needs it?

I *mean* this is totally silly, but this must be the first time a Scot
creased himslelf laffin at a blackface joke -- I thot this was
echt-USAmerican.

        Robin Roy McGregor Campbell.

(It runs this side of the Pond too -- think Duncan McCrea and the Wee Cock
Sparra or Andy Stewart and whit di ye caw whit ye wear unnner your kilt?

The Wee M'Gregor.)

Think Al Jolson, we have Tommy Trinder and and George Fromby.

        When I was cleaning windows.

                        R.

(There was a weird counter-factual Glasgow SF novel that had George Formby
ruling the UK -- makes you think, but.

                <g>

R.)













From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 20 13:37:06 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:37:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0507201137230.6792@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
	<33abf2750507200859754a341c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010f01c58d51$a6b3b630$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Let me clarify. House Niggas is the new official terminology for academic poets issued by the Academy of American Poets. Field Niggas now refers to non-academy aligned poets like Bob Grumman and myself. The Academy hopes this will prevent further sniping between the two camps. FIZZ 

Hey, gal, you leave me outta this, you heah!  Lawsy me.

--BG

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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Jul 20 14:05:27 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:05:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Criterion
Message-ID: <s2de4c31.046@mail.highland.edu>

I'd mentioned William Logan and The New Criterion yesterday. If you
haven't seen Logan's essay there, "The Desert of American Poetry" (I
believe I have the title right), you should. It's a wonderfully wicked
piece of polemic, as is his style, wherein John Ashbery gets skewered
and slowly roasted, Dean Young is stripped bare and left out for laughs
in the school yard, Ted Kooser goes tossed into the blades of the
combine and left in little shreds between the rows... And there's more.


Logan's hero is Richard Wilbur (whose Collected he actually picks on a
bit in the same review), but that doesn't matter one iota: The man is
full of fun and venom and poetry needs more of this if it is to stay
healthy in mind and  body. And The New Criterion, godawful as its
politics are, is a much more interesting and useful read than most
"progressive" cultural journals out there. This issue convinced me to
finally subscribe.

You go, Hilton Kramer.

Kent


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 20 14:07:15 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:07:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
Message-ID: <c4.2bbb6a98.300fecd3@aol.com>

Some people don't belong on lists due
to temperament or demeanor. At least
not the list I happen to manage. He got
the boss part right. 
Poetry, anyone?
Finnegan

In a message dated 7/20/2005 11:45:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes:
I pass this along with some reservation.

However, I think it was ME who was accused of racsim by CP, a fact which
barely penetrated my consciousness.  IN other words, not something I am
going to get worked up about.  But for the Lord's sake, quit trying to get
all the credit, Kent.

As for the political correctness issue - dear Lord, I live in Northampton.
We have undercover cops patrolling for possible infractions.  It gets
tiring beyond belief. But let us say, just for the record,  "Carlo, you
bad, bad boy."  There, I used that racist word again.

At any rate, it seems to me that Carlo's appropriations of these dialects
are going on at a level a little
more complex than what is being acknowledged.  (By the way, apropors of
almost nothing, news from JFK
Middle School, a "wigger" is a white kid that wishes it were
black...brilliant, if I may say so.)

So having forwarded this, I am now going to return to the task of writing
a paragraph on "Shopping for Food" for the incoming Fulbright scholars...

and maybe I will write a haiku.

peace out, dawgs,

Kerry



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:16:43 -0400
From: Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
To: Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
Subject: Re: from a kafir

Kerry. Would you be so kind as to share this with the list?

Let me clarify. House Niggas is the new official terminology for
academic poets issued by the Academy of American Poets. Field Niggas now
refers to non-academy aligned poets like Bob Grumman and myself. The
Academy hopes this will prevent further sniping between the two camps. FIZZ

P.S. I see you finsihed that dump.

Kent Johnson wrote:

> Since I was called a "racist" here yesterday by the recently departed
> Carlo Parcelli, I think it is justifiable to share what I think is a
> revealing tid-bit of information:
> This morning I received a back-channel from him, wherein he refers to
> me and Paul Lake as the "house niggas" of the list.
> The email is written in "blackface" English. Given its nature, I don't
> feel any compunction about sharing this message backchannel with anyone
> who would like to see it.
> Kent
>
>
>


Alphaville wrote:
Kerry,

This is ta let ya know this kafir have done runned off the farm. I don't
'spect Boss Finnegan will scent the dogs on me cause he done never liked
my smell no-how, no-way. Anyway if them house niggas on the lists calls
me to take out the pig offal, you tell 'em ol' Charlie nigger done
runned off into the swamp.

Its like I told Burt Hatlen who runs the Ezra Pound List. I said Burt,
"I just can't justify in my own mind being on an Ezra Pound List that
Ezra Pound would have been thrown off of and banned from." Best, CP
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From millertime at inu.net  Wed Jul 20 14:10:05 2005
From: millertime at inu.net (John and Susette Miller)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:10:05 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: [New-Poetry] unsub
Message-ID: <42DE937D.00001E.00748@FAMILY>

please unsub me 
i did not sign up for this newsletter 
 
 Susette Renfro Miller
 
 
 
 
 
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Wed Jul 20 14:21:15 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:21:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Criterion
Message-ID: <79.49bdbc7e.300ff01b@aol.com>

 
If nly Logan could live up to the standards he applies to others' poetry. I  
saw him read with a group of other poets who share a publisher with him, and 
it  was embarrassing (except I'm not sure Logan is capable of embarrassment).
 
In a message dated 7/20/2005 2:06:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes:

I'd  mentioned William Logan and The New Criterion yesterday. If you
haven't  seen Logan's essay there, "The Desert of American Poetry" (I
believe I have  the title right), you should. It's a wonderfully wicked
piece of polemic,  as is his style, wherein John Ashbery gets skewered
and slowly roasted,  Dean Young is stripped bare and left out for laughs
in the school yard, Ted  Kooser goes tossed into the blades of the
combine and left in little shreds  between the rows... And there's more.


Logan's hero is Richard  Wilbur (whose Collected he actually picks on a
bit in the same review), but  that doesn't matter one iota: The man is
full of fun and venom and poetry  needs more of this if it is to stay
healthy in mind and  body. And The  New Criterion, godawful as its
politics are, is a much more interesting and  useful read than most
"progressive" cultural journals out there. This issue  convinced me to
finally subscribe.

You go, Hilton  Kramer.

Kent


 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul 20 14:24:47 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:24:47 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] unsub
References: <42DE937D.00001E.00748@FAMILY>
Message-ID: <006701c58d58$4f7a9800$5bae3252@ANNY>

Dear Susette Renfro Miller

simply go to:

To change your List options, set 
digest or to unsubscribe, go to: 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John and Susette Miller 
  To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 8:10 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] unsub


        please unsub me 
        i did not sign up for this newsletter 

         Susette Renfro Miller




       
               
       



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul 20 14:33:53 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:33:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry
References: <c4.2bbb6a98.300fecd3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009e01c58d59$950f49a0$5bae3252@ANNY>

quoting:

Poetry, anyone?
Finnegan


Why don't we all read 

The Sonnet Project
http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf

by Halvard Johnson which I started 15 times and mails keep on coming and I think I have to answer, and then everyone comments with a couple of lines, question mark.

Thank you,
Anny
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From oedipa at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 14:39:01 2005
From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:39:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New to the List
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0507201137230.6792@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0507201137230.6792@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <d1c74efd050720113942fa9b91@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all -

My name is Karen and I'm writing in from NYC (where the heat wave is certain 
to kill me). I've been lurking for close to 6 months now, but have been too 
busy to participate on the list as of yet.

At times I'm reluctant to post a lot to lists for fear of getting into one 
of those "my poetry aesthetic is better than yours" debates where all kinds 
of hairs get split and the bigger picture gets cut up and scattered to the 
four winds. I know what I like so I'll leave it at that. I'm interested in 
sound. I like poetry that manages to be experimental without leaving me 
completely mystified. And no, I'm not a neo-formalist or anything like that. 
But I like form. I don't really use it a lot except as an occasional molding 
device for drafts... 

I do enjoy discovering new poets to read, good and informative discussions 
about poetry and literature and insightful observations about Things in 
General. 

I'm about to move to the Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts in about a month to 
teach and write and generally to try out a new approach to things. 
Currently, I'm working as a programmer in NY. But I've only been here for 3 
months. I moved here from San Francisco, CA where I previously lived for 10 
years. If anyone has any advice for me about moving to western Mass., I'm 
all ears. 

I look forward to future discussions on poetry, etc.

Cheers!

karen
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Jul 20 14:52:00 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:52:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
References: <c4.2bbb6a98.300fecd3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <012a01c58d5c$1d93a490$d8309b51@Robin>

I'm not sure there's *ever* a case for someone being dumped from a list.

Basically, I feel that a live living list should be perfectly capable of dumping -- hard! -- on someone who crosses the line.

        <Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt>

Lists should be self-regulating, and for god's sake we're supposed to be poets, who ought to have some expertise at language, and be able to take-down someone who annoys us.

        ... and not get pissed-off when we encounter a disagreement.

But what do I know, simply being a Dumb Scot who's only on New Poetry on sufferance?

        <whimper -- pleading the First Amendment>

R.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 7:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)


  Some people don't belong on lists due
  to temperament or demeanor. At least
  not the list I happen to manage. He got
  the boss part right. 
  Poetry, anyone?
  Finnegan

  In a message dated 7/20/2005 11:45:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes:
    I pass this along with some reservation.

    However, I think it was ME who was accused of racsim by CP, a fact which
    barely penetrated my consciousness.  IN other words, not something I am
    going to get worked up about.  But for the Lord's sake, quit trying to get
    all the credit, Kent.

    As for the political correctness issue - dear Lord, I live in Northampton.
    We have undercover cops patrolling for possible infractions.  It gets
    tiring beyond belief. But let us say, just for the record,  "Carlo, you
    bad, bad boy."  There, I used that racist word again.

    At any rate, it seems to me that Carlo's appropriations of these dialects
    are going on at a level a little
    more complex than what is being acknowledged.  (By the way, apropors of
    almost nothing, news from JFK
    Middle School, a "wigger" is a white kid that wishes it were
    black...brilliant, if I may say so.)

    So having forwarded this, I am now going to return to the task of writing
    a paragraph on "Shopping for Food" for the incoming Fulbright scholars...

    and maybe I will write a haiku.

    peace out, dawgs,

    Kerry



    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:16:43 -0400
    From: Alphaville <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
    To: Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
    Subject: Re: from a kafir

    Kerry. Would you be so kind as to share this with the list?

    Let me clarify. House Niggas is the new official terminology for
    academic poets issued by the Academy of American Poets. Field Niggas now
    refers to non-academy aligned poets like Bob Grumman and myself. The
    Academy hopes this will prevent further sniping between the two camps. FIZZ

    P.S. I see you finsihed that dump.

    Kent Johnson wrote:

    > Since I was called a "racist" here yesterday by the recently departed
    > Carlo Parcelli, I think it is justifiable to share what I think is a
    > revealing tid-bit of information:
    > This morning I received a back-channel from him, wherein he refers to
    > me and Paul Lake as the "house niggas" of the list.
    > The email is written in "blackface" English. Given its nature, I don't
    > feel any compunction about sharing this message backchannel with anyone
    > who would like to see it.
    > Kent
    >
    >
    >


    Alphaville wrote:
    Kerry,

    This is ta let ya know this kafir have done runned off the farm. I don't
    'spect Boss Finnegan will scent the dogs on me cause he done never liked
    my smell no-how, no-way. Anyway if them house niggas on the lists calls
    me to take out the pig offal, you tell 'em ol' Charlie nigger done
    runned off into the swamp.

    Its like I told Burt Hatlen who runs the Ezra Pound List. I said Burt,
    "I just can't justify in my own mind being on an Ezra Pound List that
    Ezra Pound would have been thrown off of and banned from." Best, CP


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 20 15:20:37 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Criterion
In-Reply-To: <s2de4c31.046@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <20050720192037.81806.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>

Kent - america sneezes and we catch the cold - I
received an out of office mail
did you read the review of McCarthy
there should be a review of Gerhard Richter soon too
I?m in M?nchen now
left Berlin, perched behind the Friedhof with an
alarming epithet or quote

the goose of Minerva collapses at midnight
written by one of the inhabitants of the Friedhof

--- Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

> I'd mentioned William Logan and The New Criterion
> yesterday. If you
> haven't seen Logan's essay there, "The Desert of
> American Poetry" (I
> believe I have the title right), you should. It's a
> wonderfully wicked
> piece of polemic, as is his style, wherein John
> Ashbery gets skewered
> and slowly roasted, Dean Young is stripped bare and
> left out for laughs
> in the school yard, Ted Kooser goes tossed into the
> blades of the
> combine and left in little shreds between the
> rows... And there's more.
> 
> 
> Logan's hero is Richard Wilbur (whose Collected he
> actually picks on a
> bit in the same review), but that doesn't matter one
> iota: The man is
> full of fun and venom and poetry needs more of this
> if it is to stay
> healthy in mind and  body. And The New Criterion,
> godawful as its
> politics are, is a much more interesting and useful
> read than most
> "progressive" cultural journals out there. This
> issue convinced me to
> finally subscribe.
> 
> You go, Hilton Kramer.
> 
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 20 15:38:27 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:38:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
Message-ID: <a9.77d26743.30100233@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/20/2005 2:52:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:
I'm not sure there's *ever* a case for someone being dumped from a list.

Basically, I feel that a live living list should be perfectly capable of 
dumping -- hard! -- on someone who crosses the line.

        <Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt>

Lists should be self-regulating, and for god's sake we're supposed to be 
poets, who ought to have some expertise at language, and be able to take-down 
someone who annoys us.

        ... and not get pissed-off when we encounter a disagreement.

But what do I know, simply being a Dumb Scot who's only on New Poetry on 
sufferance?

        <whimper -- pleading the First Amendment>
I don't want to get into a big frontchannel discussion of list
management philosophy, Robin. God (& the list) know we 
tolerate much here. The fact is, and this is well established 
in the courts over here, that you can be thrown out of a 
nominally public forum if the management/government takes 
issue with your behavior. Management escorts (or bodily carries 
in certain cases) the offending speaker to the door. There the 
speaker is free to set up a soapbox across the street and rant 
& rail to his heart's content. 

In cyberspace these virtual soapboxes can be blogs or personal webpages. Or 
the offending speaker can easily establish a list,
but this doesn't work, you see, because no one signs on, alas.
Odd thing, but people hate to be treated badly or to see others
being treated badly in their presence. 

Note: It's been my experience that it's never more than a handful
who need any management whatsoever. (And it's always a male 
problem.) My least favorite role is list cop. But for the uncivil
few, I'd never have to pin on the badge and pick up my baton. 

Now, back to poetry.

Jim Finnegan
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 16:10:16 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:10:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poet's Voice
Message-ID: <731bb17a050720131056cb65e6@mail.gmail.com>

Over at CPR, Ernest Hilbert reviews *The Voice of the Poet. *Good readers 
and bad readers exist, according to Hilbert (and most of us), but the sound 
of poetry itself is what's important. Hilbert says:
 "The dashing British critic Jon Stallworthy has frequently acknowledged 
that poetry, in its written form, is akin to a score for music. He points 
out that the principal divide between prose and poetry is the *sound* of the 
language. Poetry is an art form that places a high value on rhythm, rhyme, 
accent, alliteration, and other strictly aural facets of a given language, 
creating what Kenneth Koch terms, after Paul Val?ry, a language within a 
language. Just as painters (another endangered species) use color, line, 
form, depth, figure, lighting, texture, and framing to achieve their visual 
affects, poets are at their best when they make use of the basic 
constructive elements of their own medium. It stands to reason, then, that 
even when silently reading poetry the reader is keenly aware of its musical 
qualities. To hear poets reading their own works in recorded form is a 
benefit we in the twentieth century have over previous ages."
 I'd never heard the "language within a language" thing.
 Thoughts?

Jeff Newberry


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 16:01:50 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:01:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <a9.77d26743.30100233@aol.com>
References: <a9.77d26743.30100233@aol.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0507201301361b45de@mail.gmail.com>

Hear, hear! Well said, Jim. Well said.
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/20/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote: 
> 
>   I don't want to get into a big frontchannel discussion of list
> management philosophy, Robin. God (& the list) know we 
> tolerate much here. The fact is, and this is well established 
> in the courts over here, that you can be thrown out of a 
> nominally public forum if the management/government takes 
> issue with your behavior. Management escorts (or bodily carries 
> in certain cases) the offending speaker to the door. There the 
> speaker is free to set up a soapbox across the street and rant 
> & rail to his heart's content. 
>  In cyberspace these virtual soapboxes can be blogs or personal webpages. 
> 
  
 Or the offending speaker can easily establish a list,
> but this doesn't work, you see, because no one signs on, alas.
> Odd thing, but people hate to be treated badly or to see others
> being treated badly in their presence. 
>  Note: It's been my experience that it's never more than a handful
> who need any management whatsoever. (And it's always a male 
> problem.) My least favorite role is list cop. But for the uncivil
> few, I'd never have to pin on the badge and pick up my baton. 
>  Now, back to poetry.
>  Jim Finnegan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 20 16:33:14 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ludwig Van
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050720131056cb65e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050720203314.4918.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com>

incidence of manic-depressive psychosis among
exceptional men and women in every field very way, an
awful lot higher than in the overall community. 
examples, German composer Ludwig Van Beethoven,
British politician Winston Churchill, UK novelist
Virginia Woolf, German poet H?lderlin (may have been
schizophrenic but the psychoses are all very alike and
psychosis is even very like autism or Asperger?s
syndrome), French poet Gerard de Nerval.  There are
many others.  Churchill was manic - depressive, Hitler
suffered from Gro?enwahn (megalomania), there is no
evidence to suggest that the F?hrer was psychotic
although he is often said to have been ?nsane?.  What
this refers to is megalomania, quite a different thing
from psychosis.  US Imperialism is called coca cola (a
health drink) not Gro?enwahn, Chile or Colombia,
German megalomania is called Auschwitz.  Churchill
saved the world from the Gay Nazis but also did some
questionable things - this is called diplomacy when
folks from the UK do it, genocide when folks from
Germany or Turkey do it.  Wear an emboldened T-shirt
declaring ?we won?, whistle the Dambusters overture.



		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 


From oedipa at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 16:38:45 2005
From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:38:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poet's Voice
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050720131056cb65e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a050720131056cb65e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1c74efd05072013385f1e1796@mail.gmail.com>

Oh I have. But only with really good poets. Heaney. The sounds in his poetry 
is especially musical to my ear. He has a pattern I recognize as being 
distinctly his. Certain ways he rubs the words together I suppose. The 
resulting chemistry is the language within the poem. 

Dickinson does this too. Well, at least the more musical ones I find this to 
be true. I suppose that language within is how the poet uses imagery and 
sound and and organizes the world within the poetry he or she writes.

Painters do this for me as well. It's the artistic DNA that gets left 
behind. Only when the DNA is clearly unique do I find it "language within" I 
guess. 

Did any of that make sense?

k

On 7/20/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Over at CPR, Ernest Hilbert reviews *The Voice of the Poet. *Good readers 
> and bad readers exist, according to Hilbert (and most of us), but the sound 
> of poetry itself is what's important. Hilbert says:
>  "The dashing British critic Jon Stallworthy has frequently acknowledged 
> that poetry, in its written form, is akin to a score for music. He points 
> out that the principal divide between prose and poetry is the * sound* of 
> the language. Poetry is an art form that places a high value on rhythm, 
> rhyme, accent, alliteration, and other strictly aural facets of a given 
> language, creating what Kenneth Koch terms, after Paul Val?ry, a language 
> within a language. Just as painters (another endangered species) use color, 
> line, form, depth, figure, lighting, texture, and framing to achieve their 
> visual affects, poets are at their best when they make use of the basic 
> constructive elements of their own medium. It stands to reason, then, that 
> even when silently reading poetry the reader is keenly aware of its musical 
> qualities. To hear poets reading their own works in recorded form is a 
> benefit we in the twentieth century have over previous ages." 
>  I'd never heard the "language within a language" thing.
>  Thoughts?
> 
> Jeff Newberry
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> --Miguel de Unamuno
> 
> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
>
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 16:47:31 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:47:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poet's Voice
In-Reply-To: <d1c74efd05072013385f1e1796@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a050720131056cb65e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1c74efd05072013385f1e1796@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0507201347763bf866@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, of course. I follow what you mean. I've always thought that a good poet 
"sounds like him/herself" if you take my meaning. Sometimes, though, I find 
it hard to put into words exactly *what *that means. Take Frost, for 
example: there's thins kind of world-weary sage voice that I hear when I 
read his work, and that voice *must* come from the way the words function on 
the page. I like your metaphor, by the way--chemistry. When I read Frost, I 
see the rustic dialogue, certainly; but, I also see the way the words go 
together--the way he builds the sentence, the line.
 Wallace Stevens is the same way for me. I don't know that I can even 
describe what happens when I read a Stevens poem--that kind of spark that I 
get in my blood. It has to come from the words, certainly, but not the words 
alone. 
 I'll put it back to you: does this make any sense?
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/20/05, karen <oedipa at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> Oh I have. But only with really good poets. Heaney. The sounds in his 
> poetry is especially musical to my ear. He has a pattern I recognize as 
> being distinctly his. Certain ways he rubs the words together I suppose. The 
> resulting chemistry is the language within the poem. 
> 
> Dickinson does this too. Well, at least the more musical ones I find this 
> to be true. I suppose that language within is how the poet uses imagery and 
> sound and and organizes the world within the poetry he or she writes.
> 
> Painters do this for me as well. It's the artistic DNA that gets left 
> behind. Only when the DNA is clearly unique do I find it "language within" I 
> guess. 
> 
> Did any of that make sense?
> 
> k
> 
>  On 7/20/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >  Over at CPR, Ernest Hilbert reviews *The Voice of the Poet. *Good 
> > readers and bad readers exist, according to Hilbert (and most of us), but 
> > the sound of poetry itself is what's important. Hilbert says:
> >  "The dashing British critic Jon Stallworthy has frequently acknowledged 
> > that poetry, in its written form, is akin to a score for music. He points 
> > out that the principal divide between prose and poetry is the *sound* of 
> > the language. Poetry is an art form that places a high value on rhythm, 
> > rhyme, accent, alliteration, and other strictly aural facets of a given 
> > language, creating what Kenneth Koch terms, after Paul Val?ry, a language 
> > within a language. Just as painters (another endangered species) use color, 
> > line, form, depth, figure, lighting, texture, and framing to achieve their 
> > visual affects, poets are at their best when they make use of the basic 
> > constructive elements of their own medium. It stands to reason, then, that 
> > even when silently reading poetry the reader is keenly aware of its musical 
> > qualities. To hear poets reading their own works in recorded form is a 
> > benefit we in the twentieth century have over previous ages." 
> >  I'd never heard the "language within a language" thing.
> >  Thoughts?
> > 
> > Jeff Newberry
> >  
> > 
> > -- 
> > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> > --Miguel de Unamuno
> > 
> > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul 20 16:48:49 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:48:49 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poet's Voice
References: <731bb17a050720131056cb65e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010d01c58d6c$6e771710$5bae3252@ANNY>

It is clear to me Jeff, and the comparison with a painting is most effective and easy to understand. Let's have a good poem, for example

Mair?ad Byrne's The Russian Week
 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1176

the poetic voice stresses weariness, singles itself out from its surroundings

the other language, the second one (language within a language) is brilliant, cheerful, ironical, constructs a playful and surreal frame around the original melancholic and sad poetic observation of an overburdened self. 
Also time becomes an important coordinate, where Byrne invents : 
the prospect of an ad infinitum progression

and I think that several of the other coordinates could also be used in this context, like : line, form, depth, figure-
Mair?ad Byrne is a good example in this context because if I am not wrong she was at a certain point in her career a painter.

Care, Anny

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 10:10 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poet's Voice


  Over at CPR, Ernest Hilbert reviews The Voice of the Poet.  Good readers and bad readers exist, according to Hilbert (and most of us), but the sound of poetry itself is what's important.  Hilbert says:

  "The dashing British critic Jon Stallworthy has frequently acknowledged that poetry, in its written form, is akin to a score for music. He points out that the principal divide between prose and poetry is the sound of the language. Poetry is an art form that places a high value on rhythm, rhyme, accent, alliteration, and other strictly aural facets of a given language, creating what Kenneth Koch terms, after Paul Val?ry, a language within a language. Just as painters (another endangered species) use color, line, form, depth, figure, lighting, texture, and framing to achieve their visual affects, poets are at their best when they make use of the basic constructive elements of their own medium. It stands to reason, then, that even when silently reading poetry the reader is keenly aware of its musical qualities. To hear poets reading their own works in recorded form is a benefit we in the twentieth century have over previous ages." 

  I'd never heard the "language within a language" thing.

  Thoughts?

  Jeff Newberry


  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/

   
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Jul 20 17:16:32 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:16:32 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
References: <a9.77d26743.30100233@aol.com>
Message-ID: <018d01c58d70$4fd06c40$d8309b51@Robin>

<<
Note: It's been my experience that it's never more than a handful
who need any management whatsoever. (And it's always a male
problem.)
>>

Hey, Jim, you know you're dead right here -- why do the girls never cause
any problems?

        Bit sexist that, really.

                    <g>

<<
My least favorite role is list cop. But for the uncivil
few, I'd never have to pin on the badge and pick up my baton.
>>

        Um.  That's the case.  But too many of my friends seem to get end up
being bumped.

                        Dunno why.

<<
Now, back to poetry.
>>

So right -- howsabout we talk about POETRY people?

        Or even just lit?

                    Anyone want to yell for the LLA?

Much as I hate to admit this, there ain't *nothing* like the LLA in
Britland.

        What's the best -- Stevens or Pound or Dalsheill Hamnett?

Really, I'm strictly dumdbunny, but my money's on Hamnett.

        But it's a close call.

                Robin

(Who really HATES to admit that anything you do is better than us, but
Sheesh Wept, you can't argue with this.)

        [Sod you and the spavined horse you rode in on, you rotten
expatriate buggers.]

Georgy the Fourth.




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Jul 20 17:51:19 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:51:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"
Message-ID: <s2de811e.011@mail.highland.edu>

Jeff Newberry said:

>I've always thought that a good poet "sounds like him/herself" if you
take my meaning. 

Jeff, I'm intrigued by your statement here... Could you tell us more
about your "meaning," actually? How do you know when a poet sounds like
him/herself? Is that folksy signature language of Frost, for example,
really Frost "himself"? Insofar as the art of poetry is a rhetorical
art, aren't poets, at bottom, dissimulating all the time? If human
beings are complicated, contradictory creatures, if the "person" is a
fluid field of awareness constituted by various personae , isn't the
"individual voice" that is so prized by most creative writing programs
and Summer Writing Retreats really a kind of hoax, more an ideological
demand/effect than some authentic "sound" of the "real person"? 

How would a poet like Pessoa, say, fit into your notion of "good poet"?
Don't get me wrong, lots of perfectly "good poets," not to say great
ones, are immediately recognizable by a particular voice they have
crafted to overlay on their various selves. I love Frost and Stevens,
"myself." But why shouldn't a "good poet" also be one whose sound and
voice, even identity, is insistently changing? Maybe these are the most
"authentic" poets.

There's a terrific new book from Cambridge U., incidentally, titled
Faking It, which demonstrates quite convincingly, without recourse to
Freud, that we are never, no matter how the Culture Industry (which
includes the Creative Writing Industry, of course) never really
"ourselves." 

Boy, this email has lots of quotation marks in it!


From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 18:26:52 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:26:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"
In-Reply-To: <s2de811e.011@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2de811e.011@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05072015267632ccfd@mail.gmail.com>

Well, Kent, I reject outright the notion that we are never "ourselves," that 
we are only the mouthpieces of our history or experience on some other such 
red herring. That kind of postmodern dogma bothers me for various reason.
 But to answer your question, I don't know what I mean, exactly. As I said 
in my previous message, I find it hard to verbalize exactly what I mean. 
Maybe a quality of language. Maybe a certain sound to the texture of the 
words. Maybe the way the words sound when I read them aloud. Maybe a 
combination of all these things. My point, I think, is that (note my scare 
quotes) "good poets" have an affinity and a dexterity with language that 
allows them a whole range of voices--yet beyond their voice, I'd assert, 
lies some essential quality of that poet's work. I suppose that I'm what Ron 
Silly-man would dismiss as a "sentimentalist" from the "School of Quietude."
 So, yes, poets can take on a wide range of voices. I'm thinking of someone 
like Ai, whose long dramatic monologues take on various characters' voices 
but remain essentially Ai's voice, nonetheless. Browning did, as well. Heck, 
even Silliman has a kind of voice in something like *The Chinese Notebook*, 
but I'd have to go back to the book to explain fully how I percieve that 
voice.
 But, Kent, I think you may be right on some level. "Voice" is highly prized 
in the po-biz; and often, this emphasis is detrimental to many a young poet. 
Why not, as fiction writers say, try on different characters? Why not look 
for the voice of the poem itself? 
 I hope that I've answered your questions, though I think that I may have 
confused myself even further.
 Yours,
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/20/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote: 
> 
> Jeff Newberry said:
> 
> >I've always thought that a good poet "sounds like him/herself" if you
> take my meaning.
> 
> Jeff, I'm intrigued by your statement here... Could you tell us more
> about your "meaning," actually? How do you know when a poet sounds like
> him/herself? Is that folksy signature language of Frost, for example,
> really Frost "himself"? Insofar as the art of poetry is a rhetorical
> art, aren't poets, at bottom, dissimulating all the time? If human
> beings are complicated, contradictory creatures, if the "person" is a
> fluid field of awareness constituted by various personae , isn't the
> "individual voice" that is so prized by most creative writing programs
> and Summer Writing Retreats really a kind of hoax, more an ideological
> demand/effect than some authentic "sound" of the "real person"?
> 
> How would a poet like Pessoa, say, fit into your notion of "good poet"?
> Don't get me wrong, lots of perfectly "good poets," not to say great
> ones, are immediately recognizable by a particular voice they have
> crafted to overlay on their various selves. I love Frost and Stevens,
> "myself." But why shouldn't a "good poet" also be one whose sound and
> voice, even identity, is insistently changing? Maybe these are the most
> "authentic" poets.
> 
> There's a terrific new book from Cambridge U., incidentally, titled
> Faking It, which demonstrates quite convincingly, without recourse to
> Freud, that we are never, no matter how the Culture Industry (which
> includes the Creative Writing Industry, of course) never really
> "ourselves."
> 
> Boy, this email has lots of quotation marks in it!
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Jul 20 19:04:59 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:04:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"
Message-ID: <s2de9257.047@mail.highland.edu>

Hi Jeff,

Well, I reject that notion outright, too, that we are "only the
mouthpieces of our history or experience." Far from it. Being is more
mysterious than that. So is poetry.

I really like what you say below about "some essential quality of the
work" existing ineffably "beyond the voice." That's a rich idea worth
thinking about. (By the way, because the comment made me think of him,
do you know the work of Henry Gould? He's an outsider-eccentric of
sorts, a bit of a traditionalist, in ways, very spiritual in his
poetics, unafraid of contradicting himself as he goes searching. He and
I have had big arguments in the past. He's got one of the more
interesting minds in American poetry, and he's totally underappreciated.
He's got a blog, which you can access through Silliman's blogroll.)

And regarding Silliman, just to offer an opinion, and without trying at
all to be contentious: I disagree often myself with his views, but I
don't think it's fair or useful to call him "Silly"! He's a very smart
and learned guy with earnest opinions, extremely serious about poetics,
and he is certainly a central "voice," as it were, in the ongoing
discussion of things. In other words, he is someone who is important to
read within the total picture. (The Chinese Notebook, by the way, is Bob
Perelman.)

Thanks for the good reply.

Kent

<

Well, Kent, I reject outright the notion that we are never "ourselves,"
that 
we are only the mouthpieces of our history or experience on some other
such 
red herring. That kind of postmodern dogma bothers me for various
reason.
 But to answer your question, I don't know what I mean, exactly. As I
said 
in my previous message, I find it hard to verbalize exactly what I
mean. 
Maybe a quality of language. Maybe a certain sound to the texture of
the 
words. Maybe the way the words sound when I read them aloud. Maybe a 
combination of all these things. My point, I think, is that (note my
scare 
quotes) "good poets" have an affinity and a dexterity with language
that 
allows them a whole range of voices--yet beyond their voice, I'd
assert, 
lies some essential quality of that poet's work. I suppose that I'm
what Ron 
Silly-man would dismiss as a "sentimentalist" from the "School of
Quietude."
 So, yes, poets can take on a wide range of voices. I'm thinking of
someone 
like Ai, whose long dramatic monologues take on various characters'
voices 
but remain essentially Ai's voice, nonetheless. Browning did, as well.
Heck, 
even Silliman has a kind of voice in something like *The Chinese
Notebook*, 
but I'd have to go back to the book to explain fully how I percieve
that 
voice.
 But, Kent, I think you may be right on some level. "Voice" is highly
prized 
in the po-biz; and often, this emphasis is detrimental to many a young
poet. 
Why not, as fiction writers say, try on different characters? Why not
look 
for the voice of the poem itself? 
 I hope that I've answered your questions, though I think that I may
have 
confused myself even further.
 Yours,
 Jeff Newberry



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 20:32:40 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:32:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"
In-Reply-To: <s2de9257.047@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2de9257.047@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05072017321f5007de@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Kent,
 I looked back at my message right now, and I must apologize for sounding so 
snarky. You're totally right, by the way, about Ron Silliman. I'll confess a 
little tale about myself: when I first started reading a lot of contemporary 
poetry about six or seven years ago (I turn 31 this Saturday), I heard a lot 
about Ron Silliman; and intially, I wanted to reject him outright. He seemed 
to represent the worst, to me at least, about contemporary American verse. 
Keep in mind, I'd never even read him--only *heard about him*. But, I 
decided about a year ago to stop being so pig-headed and got a copy of *Ketjak, 
*and dang if I wasn't blown away. He really has some interesting things to 
say, and while I said "Silly man" I did so only in jest, the way the 
playground boys used to call me "Blueberry." So, I want to apologize for 
seeming dismissive about Silliman, who recently even added me to his blog 
roll--yay me!
 I'll look up Henry Gould. I've heard the name, but never read much about 
him. I do think that you're right about being and poetry. One can't box the 
mysterious--I'll look up Gould and get back to you. Thanks for the tip.
 By the way, maybe I'm jamming my foot in my mouth re *The Chinese Notebook, 
*but isn't the book here: http://www.ubu.com/ubu/silliman_chinese.html?
 I'm still very new to Language and post-avant poetry. I'm still not even up 
on Projective Verse, which was discussed on this list recently.
 I do want to say that this is a great conversation.
 Thanks
 Jeff Newberry
 

 On 7/20/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote: 
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Well, I reject that notion outright, too, that we are "only the
> mouthpieces of our history or experience." Far from it. Being is more
> mysterious than that. So is poetry.
> 
> I really like what you say below about "some essential quality of the
> work" existing ineffably "beyond the voice." That's a rich idea worth
> thinking about. (By the way, because the comment made me think of him,
> do you know the work of Henry Gould? He's an outsider-eccentric of
> sorts, a bit of a traditionalist, in ways, very spiritual in his
> poetics, unafraid of contradicting himself as he goes searching. He and
> I have had big arguments in the past. He's got one of the more
> interesting minds in American poetry, and he's totally underappreciated.
> He's got a blog, which you can access through Silliman's blogroll.)
> 
> And regarding Silliman, just to offer an opinion, and without trying at
> all to be contentious: I disagree often myself with his views, but I
> don't think it's fair or useful to call him "Silly"! He's a very smart
> and learned guy with earnest opinions, extremely serious about poetics,
> and he is certainly a central "voice," as it were, in the ongoing
> discussion of things. In other words, he is someone who is important to
> read within the total picture. (The Chinese Notebook, by the way, is Bob
> Perelman.)
> 
> Thanks for the good reply.
> 
> Kent
> 
> <
> 
> Well, Kent, I reject outright the notion that we are never "ourselves,"
> that
> we are only the mouthpieces of our history or experience on some other
> such
> red herring. That kind of postmodern dogma bothers me for various
> reason.
> But to answer your question, I don't know what I mean, exactly. As I
> said
> in my previous message, I find it hard to verbalize exactly what I
> mean.
> Maybe a quality of language. Maybe a certain sound to the texture of
> the
> words. Maybe the way the words sound when I read them aloud. Maybe a
> combination of all these things. My point, I think, is that (note my
> scare
> quotes) "good poets" have an affinity and a dexterity with language
> that
> allows them a whole range of voices--yet beyond their voice, I'd
> assert,
> lies some essential quality of that poet's work. I suppose that I'm
> what Ron
> Silly-man would dismiss as a "sentimentalist" from the "School of
> Quietude."
> So, yes, poets can take on a wide range of voices. I'm thinking of
> someone
> like Ai, whose long dramatic monologues take on various characters'
> voices
> but remain essentially Ai's voice, nonetheless. Browning did, as well.
> Heck,
> even Silliman has a kind of voice in something like *The Chinese
> Notebook*,
> but I'd have to go back to the book to explain fully how I percieve
> that
> voice.
> But, Kent, I think you may be right on some level. "Voice" is highly
> prized
> in the po-biz; and often, this emphasis is detrimental to many a young
> poet.
> Why not, as fiction writers say, try on different characters? Why not
> look
> for the voice of the poem itself?
> I hope that I've answered your questions, though I think that I may
> have
> confused myself even further.
> Yours,
> Jeff Newberry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 20:54:51 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:54:51 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"
In-Reply-To: <s2de9257.047@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2de9257.047@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0507201754546700d1@mail.gmail.com>

Pessoa seems the more productive lever here precisely because, unlike
Ai, he isn't always himself (loaded idea there!) while inhabiting his
heteronyms. If he were, wouldn't that make him a much weaker poet...
at least along one possible dimension?

c
-- 
Chris Lott



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 21:00:15 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:00:15 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ludwig Van
In-Reply-To: <20050720203314.4918.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <731bb17a050720131056cb65e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050720203314.4918.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0507201800613c392e@mail.gmail.com>

There are a lot of individual cases of
manic-depression/depression/psychosis in the creative class (so to
speak), but the literature seems divided over how significant the
numbers are, much less getting to the question of causation. I don't
really know the numbers though-- maybe there has been more research?

_Touched by Fire_ is a good book on this topic as well... 

c
-- 
Chris Lott



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 20 21:18:37 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:18:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05072017321f5007de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <s2de9257.047@mail.highland.edu>
	<731bb17a05072017321f5007de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3aba3a4d169475a47552ebb3078ccbf@earthlink.net>


On Jul 20, 2005, at 8:32 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> By the way, maybe I'm jamming my foot in my mouth re The Chinese 
> Notebook, but isn't the book here:? 
> http://www.ubu.com/ubu/silliman_chinese.html?

Quite right, and it's also in R.S.'s *The World of Huts* (Roof Books, 
1986).

Hal




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 20 22:06:04 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:06:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Olson and the different Buddhisms
Message-ID: <1fd.60509b2.30105d0c@aol.com>

December 22nd

The sea
is right up against the skin of the shore with a tide
as high
as this one, the rocks
stretched, Half Moon Beach
swallowed (to its bank), Shag Rock
now by itself away from
the Island, the Island
itself a floating 
cruiser or ironclad
Monitor, all laid out on top of the water, the whole
full landscape a
Buddhist
message, Japanese
Buddhism and maybe,
behind it, exactly in these tightened coves, Chinese
Buddhism, fullness and
pertinax, sharp drawn
lesson, the rocks
melting
into the sea, the forests
behind, transparent
from the light snow showing
lost rocks and hills
which one doesn't, ordinarily,
know, all the sea
cam and waiting, having
come so far.

--Charles Olson, from The Maximus Poems, 
U. of California, c1983, p. 482
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Jul 20 22:52:15 2005
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:52:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry? (with a badminton net)
In-Reply-To: <1fd.60509b2.30105d0c@aol.com>
References: <1fd.60509b2.30105d0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20050720214646.G67144@kpaul.spinweb.net>

In your words, without thinking of it for more than, let's say, three 
minutes, what is poetry?

a) using two words

b) using four words

c) using 42 words

ready, steady, go...

a) moment captured

b) inside me and you

c) poetry is the moment captured, or the thought, illicit or not, caught 
with but a glimpse, a sniff of the rain in the air, the glare of the sun 
blinding just so. poetry is changing, with mankind, or before mankind 
maybe. PC?

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 21 02:44:41 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:44:41 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"
Message-ID: <200507210521.j6L5LQBe269606@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

i know a lot of poets that started writing in certain ways and then when 
they realized that a lot of people wouldn't take them seriously (as poets)
unless they talked it the way they wrote it, well, they
began to imitate the mannerisms of their written works.
funny thing is, it wasn't even done consciously at first--
like when you catch yourself saying a phrase your best friend has been using
for years,
like "tough tacos" or "my homeys and peeps would durst beg to differ"

C

----------
From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"
Date: Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 4:32 PM


Thanks Kent,

I looked back at my message right now, and I must apologize for sounding so
snarky.  You're totally right, by the way, about Ron Silliman.  I'll confess
a little tale about myself:  when I first started reading a lot of
contemporary poetry about six or seven years ago (I turn 31 this Saturday),
I heard a lot about Ron Silliman; and intially, I wanted to reject him
outright.  He seemed to represent the worst, to me at least, about
contemporary American verse.  Keep in mind, I'd never even read him--only
heard about him.  But, I decided about a year ago to stop being so
pig-headed and got a copy of Ketjak, and dang if I wasn't blown away.  He
really has some interesting things to say, and while I said "Silly man" I
did so only in jest, the way the playground boys used to call me
"Blueberry."  So, I want to apologize for seeming dismissive about Silliman,
who recently even added me to his blog roll--yay me!

I'll look up Henry Gould.  I've heard the name, but never read much about
him.  I do think that you're right about being and poetry.  One can't box
the mysterious--I'll look up Gould and get back to you.  Thanks for the tip.

By the way, maybe I'm jamming my foot in my mouth re The Chinese Notebook,
but isn't the book here:  http://www.ubu.com/ubu/silliman_chinese.html?

I'm still very new to Language and post-avant poetry.  I'm still not even up
on Projective Verse, which was discussed on this list recently.

I do want to say that this is a great conversation.

Thanks

Jeff Newberry




On 7/20/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu
<mailto:Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> > wrote:
Hi Jeff,

Well, I reject that notion outright, too, that we are "only the
mouthpieces of our history or experience." Far from it. Being is more
mysterious than that. So is poetry.

I really like what you say below about "some essential quality of the
work" existing ineffably "beyond the voice." That's a rich idea worth
thinking about. (By the way, because the comment made me think of him,
do you know the work of Henry Gould? He's an outsider-eccentric of
sorts, a bit of a traditionalist, in ways, very spiritual in his
poetics, unafraid of contradicting himself as he goes searching. He and
I have had big arguments in the past. He's got one of the more
interesting minds in American poetry, and he's totally underappreciated.
He's got a blog, which you can access through Silliman's blogroll.)

And regarding Silliman, just to offer an opinion, and without trying at
all to be contentious: I disagree often myself with his views, but I
don't think it's fair or useful to call him "Silly"! He's a very smart
and learned guy with earnest opinions, extremely serious about poetics,
and he is certainly a central "voice," as it were, in the ongoing
discussion of things. In other words, he is someone who is important to
read within the total picture. (The Chinese Notebook, by the way, is Bob
Perelman.)

Thanks for the good reply.

Kent

<

Well, Kent, I reject outright the notion that we are never "ourselves,"
that
we are only the mouthpieces of our history or experience on some other
such
red herring. That kind of postmodern dogma bothers me for various
reason.
But to answer your question, I don't know what I mean, exactly. As I
said
in my previous message, I find it hard to verbalize exactly what I
mean.
Maybe a quality of language. Maybe a certain sound to the texture of
the
words. Maybe the way the words sound when I read them aloud. Maybe a
combination of all these things. My point, I think, is that (note my
scare
quotes) "good poets" have an affinity and a dexterity with language
that
allows them a whole range of voices--yet beyond their voice, I'd
assert,
lies some essential quality of that poet's work. I suppose that I'm
what Ron
Silly-man would dismiss as a "sentimentalist" from the "School of
Quietude."
So, yes, poets can take on a wide range of voices. I'm thinking of
someone
like Ai, whose long dramatic monologues take on various characters'
voices
but remain essentially Ai's voice, nonetheless. Browning did, as well.
Heck,
even Silliman has a kind of voice in something like *The Chinese
Notebook*,
but I'd have to go back to the book to explain fully how I percieve
that
voice.
But, Kent, I think you may be right on some level. "Voice" is highly
prized
in the po-biz; and often, this emphasis is detrimental to many a young
poet.
Why not, as fiction writers say, try on different characters? Why not
look
for the voice of the poem itself?
I hope that I've answered your questions, though I think that I may
have
confused myself even further.
Yours,
Jeff Newberry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Jul 21 01:38:59 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:38:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"
References: <200507210521.j6L5LQBe269606@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <02ab01c58db6$80828990$d8309b51@Robin>

Re: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"From: Chris Stroffolino

<<
like when you catch yourself saying a phrase your best friend has been using
for years,
like "tough tacos" or "my homeys and peeps would durst beg to differ"
>>

        "tough tacos" is an euphemism.

I'm too polite to say what it's a euphemism *for*.

As Fats Waller said when the Fat Lady asked him to define jazz, "If you
don't know by now, baby, you ain't +never+ going to know."

            <g>

R.




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Jul 21 02:07:12 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:07:12 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] "sounds like him/herself"
References: <200507210521.j6L5LQBe269606@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
	<02ab01c58db6$80828990$d8309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <02bb01c58dba$70bdaf40$d8309b51@Robin>

>         "tough tacos" is an euphemism.
> 
> I'm too polite to say what it's a euphemism *for*.
> 
> As Fats Waller said when the Fat Lady asked him to define jazz, "If you
> don't know by now, baby, you ain't +never+ going to know."
> 
>             <g>
> 
> R.

"It's not over till the Fat Lady sings" is an opera term.

Don't even *ask* me about the origin of "tough tacos".

        Bosambo of the River.

                SNAFU

R.



From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 21 06:06:30 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:06:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ludwig Van
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0507201800613c392e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050721100630.77503.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com>

who?s it by?

--- Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote:

> There are a lot of individual cases of
> manic-depression/depression/psychosis in the
> creative class (so to
> speak), but the literature seems divided over how
> significant the
> numbers are, much less getting to the question of
> causation. I don't
> really know the numbers though-- maybe there has
> been more research?
> 
> _Touched by Fire_ is a good book on this topic as
> well... 
> 
> c
> -- 
> Chris Lott
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 


From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 21 08:59:56 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:59:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0507201301361b45de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9.77d26743.30100233@aol.com>
Message-ID: <42DF640C.4747.D22B48@localhost>

On 20 Jul 2005 at 19:52, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> I'm not sure there's *ever* a case for someone being dumped from a
> list. Basically, I feel that a live living list should be perfectly capable of
> dumping -- hard! -- on someone who crosses the line. Lists should be
> self-regulating, and for god's sake we're supposed to be poets, who
> ought to have some expertise at language, and be able to take-down
> someone who annoys us. and not get pissed-off when we encounter a
> disagreement.

Name-calling and ad hominem attacks is, in my view, a good reason to 
dump someone from a list, after suitable warnings and attempts to point 
out the inappropriateness of such behavior. A list that forbids 
disagreement is doomed to pap and pablum. Learn to use the delete key  
if you don't want to read or participate in an on-going discussion that 
isn't mere name-calling and ad hominems. 

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 21 08:59:56 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:59:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pro-Olson
In-Reply-To: <OF126EC5C1.DBF58D0B-ON85257043.00712522-85257043.007162BD@neu.edu>
Message-ID: <42DF640C.28559.D22D4C@localhost>

Kent Johnson wrote:
> What makes Olson great ... is the
> whole system and its touch-down in time, the tornado of energy that was
> his mind and his weird learning, how that funnel steered itself through
> the gated-suburb of late-New Criticism, showing *most* of the fancy
> dwellings there to be so much pre-fab, sadly standard things built on
> long-neglected native ground. (The "New Formalism," fetching as some of
> its eccentric structures are, could be historicized, I think, as a
> belated camp town made out of the wreckage of that storm...) <

It's significant that it is metaphors of breaking, wrecking, and the like are 
so persistently employed by the advocates of "new poetry", as if nothing 
could be done in addition, but all must be done instead. What a 
profoundly adolescent view: none of yours! all of mine! 

It is disturbing to think that these new poets and new critics are 
pretending to teach to undergraduates the very poems that they so 
disparage. How is it possible to engage students in the study and 
enjoyment of poetry, or of thought about poetry, that one views as 
"wreckage"?

Marcus












From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 21 09:06:42 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:06:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry? (with a badminton net)
In-Reply-To: <20050720214646.G67144@kpaul.spinweb.net>
References: <1fd.60509b2.30105d0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <42DF65A2.20411.D85DC5@localhost>

On 20 Jul 2005 at 21:52, kpaul mallasch wrote:
> In your words, without thinking of it for more than, let's say, three 
> minutes, what is poetry?
> 
> a) using two words

metered language

> b) using four words

metered language of significance

> c) using 42 words

I ask unanimous consent to reserve the balance of my time.





From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Jul 21 09:23:31 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:23:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevie Smith Article
Message-ID: <731bb17a05072106236fec3631@mail.gmail.com>

*http://www.believermag.com/issues/200504/article_orr.php*
 David Orr asserts, among other things:
 "[ . . . ] Stevie Smith, the cartoon-drawing, school-girl dress-wearing, 
near doggerel-spouting British poet who died in 1971 at age sixty-nine. It's 
probably fair to say that of all poets generally considered to be "serious," 
Stevie Smith ranks among the silliest, both personally and poetically. As to 
the former, this was largely a matter of presentation?in addition to her 
eccentric wardrobe, Smith was known for warbling her poems during readings 
in a manner that Seamus Heaney once characterized as a cross between "an 
embarrassed party-piece by a child? and a deliberate *faux-naif* rendition 
by a virtuoso." As for the poetry itself, well, Stevie Smith is a willfully 
ridiculous writer?or, as some have preferred, "eccentric" (Heaney), 
"completely original" (Philip Larkin), and "a rare bird" (Clive James)?which 
means, more or less, that nobody has a clue as to how to describe her."
 Hmm.... "doggrel-spouting?" Thoughts?
 Jeff Newberry
 
-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul 21 10:04:46 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:04:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry? (with a badminton net)
References: <1fd.60509b2.30105d0c@aol.com> <42DF65A2.20411.D85DC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <006301c58dfd$27721f40$5bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 20 Jul 2005 at 21:52, kpaul mallasch wrote:
>> In your words, without thinking of it for more than, let's say, three
>> minutes, what is poetry?
>>
>> a) using two words

> metered language

As a taxonomist, I would fault this for, among other things, being way too 
narrow--like defining boats as rowed transporters.  I would start with 
"flow-broken literature."

>> b) using four words
>
> metered language of significance

Too subjective.  I would go with "literary works using flow-breaks."  That 
repeats my two-word definition in slightly less awkward language.

>> c) using 42 words

I would back up to define "literature," then advance to a definition of 
"flow-breaks."  Won't here because I've already done it at Comprepoetica, my 
website.

--Bob G. 




From hruggier at localnet.com  Thu Jul 21 11:08:04 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:08:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Criterion
References: <79.49bdbc7e.300ff01b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c58e05$ff259180$0c099942@Helen>

Any chance of posting the essay? 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AlMaginnes at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 2:21 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The New Criterion


  If nly Logan could live up to the standards he applies to others' poetry. I saw him read with a group of other poets who share a publisher with him, and it was embarrassing (except I'm not sure Logan is capable of embarrassment).

  In a message dated 7/20/2005 2:06:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes:
    I'd mentioned William Logan and The New Criterion yesterday. If you
    haven't seen Logan's essay there, "The Desert of American Poetry" (I
    believe I have the title right), you should. It's a wonderfully wicked
    piece of polemic, as is his style, wherein John Ashbery gets skewered
    and slowly roasted, Dean Young is stripped bare and left out for laughs
    in the school yard, Ted Kooser goes tossed into the blades of the
    combine and left in little shreds between the rows... And there's more.


    Logan's hero is Richard Wilbur (whose Collected he actually picks on a
    bit in the same review), but that doesn't matter one iota: The man is
    full of fun and venom and poetry needs more of this if it is to stay
    healthy in mind and  body. And The New Criterion, godawful as its
    politics are, is a much more interesting and useful read than most
    "progressive" cultural journals out there. This issue convinced me to
    finally subscribe.

    You go, Hilton Kramer.

    Kent



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From hruggier at localnet.com  Thu Jul 21 11:10:53 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:10:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
References: <a9.77d26743.30100233@aol.com>
	<018d01c58d70$4fd06c40$d8309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <00c301c58e06$6383d7e0$0c099942@Helen>

Probably aren't any "girls" on the list.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)


> <<
> Note: It's been my experience that it's never more than a handful
> who need any management whatsoever. (And it's always a male
> problem.)
>>>
>
> Hey, Jim, you know you're dead right here -- why do the girls never cause
> any problems?
>
>        Bit sexist that, really.
>
>                    <g>
>
> <<
> My least favorite role is list cop. But for the uncivil
> few, I'd never have to pin on the badge and pick up my baton.
>>>
>
>        Um.  That's the case.  But too many of my friends seem to get end 
> up
> being bumped.
>
>                        Dunno why.
>
> <<
> Now, back to poetry.
>>>
>
> So right -- howsabout we talk about POETRY people?
>
>        Or even just lit?
>
>                    Anyone want to yell for the LLA?
>
> Much as I hate to admit this, there ain't *nothing* like the LLA in
> Britland.
>
>        What's the best -- Stevens or Pound or Dalsheill Hamnett?
>
> Really, I'm strictly dumdbunny, but my money's on Hamnett.
>
>        But it's a close call.
>
>                Robin
>
> (Who really HATES to admit that anything you do is better than us, but
> Sheesh Wept, you can't argue with this.)
>
>        [Sod you and the spavined horse you rode in on, you rotten
> expatriate buggers.]
>
> Georgy the Fourth.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Jul 21 11:30:28 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:30:28 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevie Smith Article
References: <731bb17a05072106236fec3631@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <035201c58e09$205f6620$d8309b51@Robin>

<<
http://www.believermag.com/issues/200504/article_orr.php

David Orr asserts, among other things:

"[ . . . ] Stevie Smith, the cartoon-drawing, school-girl dress-wearing,
near doggerel-spouting British poet

            <SNIP>

Hmm.... "doggrel-spouting?"  Thoughts?

Jeff Newberry
>>

Lots, and I'm not sure where to start.

That Stevie Smith is easily the most under-rated English woman poet of the
twentieth century?

That her closest analogue in USAmerican poetry is Emily Dickinson?

That she's impossible to teach (worse even than Old Ezra)?

But as to the "doggerel" business, she drew on nursery rhymes for her
rhythms in the same way that the sainted Emily drew on the New England Hymn
Book.

... it *is* possible to scan a Stevie Smith poem, but to do so you have to
drop into second-level dipodic metre -- she knew exactly what she was doing,
but no one else seemed to.  Bit like Crow Ransom on your side of the Pond.

And of course she was lumbered with The Classic Anthology Poem, "Not Waving
But Drowning".  Good, but not her best.

That she was cursed with the Matthew Arnold dissing of light verse.

Add to which, she was seriously into register-jumping in her poems (think
especially "Persons from Porlock"), not a thing that goes down a bundle.

U.A.Fanthorpe is the only poet I can think of who was remotely like her.

            Dry thots in a sad season.

R.




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Jul 21 11:54:11 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:54:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
References: <a9.77d26743.30100233@aol.com><018d01c58d70$4fd06c40$d8309b51@Robin>
	<00c301c58e06$6383d7e0$0c099942@Helen>
Message-ID: <035d01c58e0c$708e68a0$d8309b51@Robin>

From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>

> Probably aren't any "girls" on the list.

        SNIP

> > Hey, Jim, you know you're dead right here -- why do the girls never
cause
> > any problems?

Not true Wendy, and some even moderate lists, and edit magazines (especially
in Scotland) but they just don't seem to have the talent for creating the
mind-numbingly tedious threads that can sometimes develop.

            A Lost Boy

[ Oh -- batteries not included -- they also occasionally write pomes.  <g> ]

As an afterthought, someone on another list -- I think it was BufPo -- 
stamped on the use of the term "boy" as racist.

AfterThingTwo -- I think a resonance behind my original post around the term
"girl" was Fulke Greville.  Doesn't excuse the sexist connotations of the
term, but it does give it a bit of history.  Why is there a default
assumption that all "anonymous" Medieval Lyrics are written by men?

Always struck me as singularly counter-intuitive, that did.

Margery Kemp




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Jul 21 04:56:46 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:56:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Olson and the different Buddhisms
In-Reply-To: <1fd.60509b2.30105d0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF04CD7E.991E%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/20/05 9:06 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:

> December 22nd
> 
> The sea
> is right up against the skin of the shore with a tide
> as high
> as this one, the rocks
> stretched, Half Moon Beach
> swallowed (to its bank), Shag Rock
> now by itself away from
> the Island, the Island
> itself a floating
> cruiser or ironclad
> Monitor, all laid out on top of the water, the whole
> full landscape a
> Buddhist
> message, Japanese
> Buddhism and maybe,
> behind it, exactly in these tightened coves, Chinese
> Buddhism, fullness and
> pertinax, sharp drawn
> lesson, the rocks
> melting
> into the sea, the forests
> behind, transparent
> from the light snow showing
> lost rocks and hills
> which one doesn't, ordinarily,
> know, all the sea
> cam and waiting, having
> come so far.
> 
> --Charles Olson, from The Maximus Poems,
> U. of California, c1983, p. 482
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

This seems to be a rare moment of lyricism and lucidity in Olson?s Maximus.
Sounds a lot like Williams, too. For my taste, though, I?ll take Basil
Bunting over most of the other descendents of Pound.


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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Jul 21 12:02:45 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:02:45 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Girls
Message-ID: <037901c58e0d$a301f260$d8309b51@Robin>

Thinking of Helen's remark, there's a singular lack of women writers in the corpus of the LLA.

Mind you, the only decent 18thC woman pote was, as Roger Londsdale proved ...

        Lady Mary Wortley Montague



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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Thu Jul 21 12:10:33 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:10:33 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ludwig Van
In-Reply-To: <20050721100630.77503.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9b1b9dab0507201800613c392e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050721100630.77503.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05072109101b2477a4@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/21/05, Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> who?s it by?

Touched With Fire: Manic Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament
Kay Jamison 

c
-- 
Chris Lott



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 21 12:18:05 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:18:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Olson and the different Buddhisms
Message-ID: <42.6d8a837b.301124bd@aol.com>

I see I let a typo thru...penultimate line should be "calm and waiting,..."

What do people make of 'pertinax' (line 19)...

Pertinax (Publius Helvius Pertinax), 126?193, Roman emperor (193), b. 
Liguria. Formerly a general, he reluctantly succeeded Commodus on the throne. 
Attempting to curb license in the Praetorian Guard, he was slain by a soldier, thus 
ending his brief reign of three months. Didius Julianus succeeded him.

If so, why not capped? Is there a Latin root/meaning to the word that
would be pertinent. A plant with the same name?
Finnegan

In a message dated 7/21/2005 11:58:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
December 22nd

The sea
is right up against the skin of the shore with a tide
as high
as this one, the rocks
stretched, Half Moon Beach
swallowed (to its bank), Shag Rock
now by itself away from
the Island, the Island
itself a floating 
cruiser or ironclad
Monitor, all laid out on top of the water, the whole
full landscape a
Buddhist
message, Japanese
Buddhism and maybe,
behind it, exactly in these tightened coves, Chinese
Buddhism, fullness and
pertinax, sharp drawn
lesson, the rocks
melting
into the sea, the forests
behind, transparent
from the light snow showing
lost rocks and hills
which one doesn't, ordinarily,
know, all the sea
cam and waiting, having
come so far.

--Charles Olson, from The Maximus Poems, 
U. of California, c1983, p. 482



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



This seems to be a rare moment of lyricism and lucidity in Olson?s Maximus. 
Sounds a lot like Williams, too. For my taste, though, I?ll take Basil Bunting 
over most of the other descendents of Pound. 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Jul 21 12:33:29 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:33:29 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] More bombs in London
References: <731bb17a05072106236fec3631@mail.gmail.com>
	<035201c58e09$205f6620$d8309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <039d01c58e11$eead2500$d8309b51@Robin>

This is becoming a little tedious.

Everyone is trembling in their boots.

        ... at least those who happen to notice.

Oh well, I suppose it gives the media something to talk on.

    <   Oh my god, Radio 4 has just switched from the latest London bombs to
cricket.

            Tells you something about the English sense of priorities.   >

R.




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 21 12:49:52 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:49:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] How to Write Modern Poetry
Message-ID: <1fe.60fa69c.30112c30@aol.com>

How to Write Modern Poetry
Geoff Tims
Cool Publications
www.coolpublications.com
ISBN 1844811018 4.99 Brit. pounds 100 pages, PDF Format
ISBN 1844811026 11.99 Brit. pounds, CD format
An expert guide on how to get beneath the skin of poetry
Modern poetry is a literary minefield. Its seeming disregard for all the 
obvious rules of more traditional poetry forms has often made it an easy target 
for critics who found it hard to understand and a difficult arena for budding 
poets who struggled to adequately find the form needed to bring their thoughts 
to life.
As a journalist I'm wary of How-to books because they tend to marginalise the 
true effort required to create anything that's remotely adequate, let alone 
good. Their prescriptive approach tends to favour a "now we do this and next 
we'll do that-" formula that rarely works.
All of which makes Geoff Tims' How to Write Modern Poetry the exception that 
proves the rule. A working poet who never stops seeking ways to improve his 
craft Tims' book has forsaken the formulaic approach on How-to do anything for a 
compressed masterclass on the writing of modern poetry.
Opening with 'What is Modern Poetry' Tims analyses not just the genre but the 
form itself. He makes the point that good poetry is good poetry irrespective 
of style and draws real parallels between the different art forms, asking the 
reader to first look inside themselves before they think of putting pen to 
paper.
As you'd expect in a How-to book there is the inevitable step-by-step 
approach that, in this case, feels entirely natural, chatty and unforced. The 
exercises at the end of each chapter have a specific aim: to bring out the poet 
inside the reader. To sensitise us to the world around us, to make us aware of the 
potent power of words and to teach us the secrets of the craft of modern 
poetry that successful poets find out about the hard way.
Taking the unusual, and very brave, tact of developing a poem alongside the 
reader Geoff Tims explores what exactly makes a poem great and then goes on to 
give examples, create crisis points the budding poet must resolve and offer 
advice.
Watching the poem develop is akin to taking an apprenticeship beside a master 
craftsman. The digital format of the book makes it perfect for skipping 
around through all its bookmarks and, for once, I was able to read three chapters 
on the train and do the exercises without having to suffer the supercilious 
glances of fellow travellers prepared to make judgement about anyone trying to be 
a poet.
Geoff Tims' book is thoroughly exhaustive of its subject as only a How-to 
book can be and passionately personal in its arguments as you'd expect from a 
poet who's very much at the centre of his art. It is also tremendously helpful, 
full of insight, occasionally witty and always gentle in its guidance. If all 
How-to books were like this the genre itself would see a revival beyond 
anyone's expectations and ... there would be fewer badly-attempted poems about.-
COPYRIGHT 2004 Midwest Book Review
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Jul 21 13:22:52 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:22:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ludwig Van
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab05072109101b2477a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9b1b9dab0507201800613c392e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050721100630.77503.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com>
	<9b1b9dab05072109101b2477a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a050721102239fb490a@mail.gmail.com>

I read a great deal of that book when I was in graduate school. I was 
working on a novel-length manuscript with a central character who was a 
bi-polar musician. I remember the book being informative; but in retrospect, 
it seemed to feed the myth that all creative types have some kind of "loose 
screw."
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/21/05, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> On 7/21/05, Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > who?s it by?
> 
> Touched With Fire: Manic Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament
> Kay Jamison
> 
> c
> --
> Chris Lott
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Jul 21 13:39:51 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:39:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Chinese Notebooks
Message-ID: <s2df97bc.046@mail.highland.edu>

Sorry, Jeff, you are right--I was thinking of Perelman;s poem "China,"
which was famously assaulted by Fredric Jameson, in his essay
"Postmodernism, or, the Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism." 

I'm getting old.

Kent


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 21 15:14:51 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:14:51 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry? (with a badminton net)
Message-ID: <200507211751.j6LHpDMn131580@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Sometimes, for me at least, it can be
"floe-broken literature"

C

----------
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: <marcus at designerglass.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;
Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Cc:
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry? (with a badminton net)
>Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 6:04 AM
>

>  I would start with
> "flow-broken literature."


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 21 15:17:48 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:17:48 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Chinese Notebooks
Message-ID: <200507211754.j6LHsXEe053596@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

Kent---was that piece really an assault? I've heard people say that before,
      but when I read it (like 15 years ago now), it just seemed like
      great publicity, like "here's a poem that illustrates my thesis
      about the schizoid split of the subject under capitalism" blah blah
etc....
     with assailants like that, who needs an attorney?
C

----------
>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] The Chinese Notebooks
>Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 9:39 AM
>

> Sorry, Jeff, you are right--I was thinking of Perelman;s poem "China,"
> which was famously assaulted by Fredric Jameson, in his essay
> "Postmodernism, or, the Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism."
>
> I'm getting old.
>
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Jul 21 15:01:20 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:01:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jameson/Perelman<>Lukacs/Brecht
Message-ID: <s2dfaad7.009@mail.highland.edu>

Chris, it's been a long time since I read "Postmodernism, or, the
Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism." But Jameson is open about his debt
to Lukacsian aesthetics (though in the "neo" sense--he's hardly an
advocate of Socialist Realism as Lukacs was), so he holds Perelman's
poem up as example of the ways late-capitalism drives literature away
from politically effective "realist" models and into non-syllogistic
(schizophrenic, as he has it) aesthetic dead ends, where textual
fragmentation becomes a function of cultural fragmentation and
alienation in general, reflecting, in a sense, the very forces it would
claim to critique. His argument is very much in the tradition of
Lukacs's polemics against Brecht earlier in the century--this the
seminal debate in 20th cent. Marxist aesthetics. Viewed from that angle,
it makes for an interesting comparison, since at the time of Jameson's
essay, many of the key figures in Language poetry openly proclaimed
their Marxism (fuzzy and social democratic as it tended to be), so one
could see the minor fisticuffs that developed as an update in microcosm
of the previous split. I say "minor" because the reaction of the Langpos
was very timid--not much was said at all--the most extended response, I
believe, was George Hartley's, in one of the early book-length
considerations fo Language Poetry (I can't recall it's title). 

Of course, most of the original key figures of the Language group
(along with their post-avant heirs) have become unembarrassed
cheerleaders of the Democratic Party or else no longer much interested
(apparently) in the relationship between poetic experiment and political
critique. So likely a Jameson would choose a different and more
relevantly political target to make his or her points these days.

But you're probably right that in the long run this was good publicity
for the group, all in all: one of its first real "academic" treatments.
And lord knows there have been lots of those since then!

Kent

*

Chris S. said:

>Kent---was that piece really an assault? I've heard people say that
before,
      but when I read it (like 15 years ago now), it just seemed like
      great publicity, like "here's a poem that illustrates my thesis
      about the schizoid split of the subject under capitalism" blah
blah
etc....
     with assailants like that, who needs an attorney?



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Jul 21 15:09:34 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:09:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz
Message-ID: <s2dfacc0.022@mail.highland.edu>

(Just out: the information and cover can be viewed at http://osnapper.typepad.com/snappersjunk/  
Scott Pierce, editor of Effing Press, has done a wonderful job producing this book! )


from Effing Press: LYRIC POETRY AFTER AUSCHWITZ by Kent Johnson

 
Lyric Poetry After Auschwitz: Eleven Submissions to the War 

by Kent Johnson 

44 pages w/ code orange end papers 

$7.00 

***

I think "Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz" is by far the most relevant

poem for/in/about this War* It is a poem for our time.

--Ethan Paquin


Like the Jews, if Kent Johnson didn't exist, someone would have to

invent him. His mind leaks nomads...

--Alan Sondheim


This collection finds Johnson representing our fiendish blind spots,

the nature of those far cries of human murderousness alongside

the fragility of identity and dignity, wielding homeopathically this

seemingly bottomless, merciless virulence, this miasma, in the

hope of helping to replenish the means of our deliverance.

--Lissa Wolsak


Finally, a gringo poet ready to offend all takers, even while

defending the likes of me. Many of these poems push you off the

long chow line of mutual admiration, asking where you stand right

now. Walk in at your own risk: Kent Johnson takes no prisoners.

--Ammiel Alcalay






From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 21 15:26:11 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:26:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] What is Poetry? (with a badminton net)
In-Reply-To: <006301c58dfd$27721f40$5bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42DFBE93.29260.4BD37F@localhost>

> > On 20 Jul 2005 at 21:52, kpaul mallasch wrote:
> >> In your words, without thinking of it for more than, let's say, three
> >> minutes, what is poetry?
> >> a) using two words

Marcus Bales wrote: 
> > metered language

On 21 Jul 2005 at 10:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> As a taxonomist, I would fault this for, among other things, being way too 
> narrow--like defining boats as rowed transporters.  I would start with 
> "flow-broken literature."

By that measure any stutterer is a poet. 

Grumman, from all the evidence of his proposals and his defenses of his 
proposals, has no idea what a taxonomy is, or how it fits into a scientific 
investigation of a subject, or why categorization of a volitional human 
activity is different from distinguishing species from one another.

The example he offers here, that calling poetry "metered language" is 
like calling boats "rowed transporters" is simply wrong on the face of it. 
He can't even get his scientisms to work for him as metaphors, much 
less as evidence of a real scientific investigation on his part. Defining 
poetry as "metered language" is more like distinguishing boats from 
airplanes from trucks within a transportation system. Metaphorically they 
are all "transportation", as poetry is "art". He misses the point of 
distinguishing poetry from prose.

Mallasch wrote: 
> >> b) using four words
Marcus Bales wrote
> > metered language of significance

Grumman wrote: 
> Too subjective.  I would go with "literary works using flow-breaks."  That 
> repeats my two-word definition in slightly less awkward language.

Too subjective? We're talking about an endeavor that is entirely 
volitional, made by humans. There is nothing objective there -- the 
whole thing is necessarily subjective, and must be addressed 
subjectively. Grumman offers us no science whatever; he merely steals 
words from science, misuses them, and pretends that the result is 
scientific. Nearly everything he offers is just more evidence that he 
doesn't understand the claim he's trying to make, or how to make it. 
Where is the scale on which to measure the quality of a poem that 
Grumman offers us? Where is the tool by which to measure that quality 
that anyone with a little training and the tool can use with reasonable 
accuracy? Where is this vaunted taxonomy that is not "too subjective"? 
Everything about his own neologistic maunderings demonstrates the 
essential and necessary subjectivity of the opinions about art in general 
and poetry in particular. To listen to Grumman saying something is "too 
subjective" is like hearing the Red Queen shout "Off with his head!".

Marcus



From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 21 15:28:35 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz
In-Reply-To: <s2dfacc0.022@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42DFBF23.29387.4E05B1@localhost>

And of his great modesty, Kent Johnson says nothing.

Marcus

On 21 Jul 2005 at 14:09, Kent Johnson wrote:

> (Just out: the information and cover can be viewed at http://osnapper.typepad.com/snappersjunk/  
> Scott Pierce, editor of Effing Press, has done a wonderful job producing this book! )
> 
> 
> from Effing Press: LYRIC POETRY AFTER AUSCHWITZ by Kent Johnson
> 
>  
> Lyric Poetry After Auschwitz: Eleven Submissions to the War 
> 
> by Kent Johnson 
> 
> 44 pages w/ code orange end papers 
> 
> $7.00 
> 
> ***
> 
> I think "Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz" is by far the most relevant
> 
> poem for/in/about this War* It is a poem for our time.
> 
> --Ethan Paquin
> 
> 
> Like the Jews, if Kent Johnson didn't exist, someone would have to
> 
> invent him. His mind leaks nomads...
> 
> --Alan Sondheim
> 
> 
> This collection finds Johnson representing our fiendish blind spots,
> 
> the nature of those far cries of human murderousness alongside
> 
> the fragility of identity and dignity, wielding homeopathically this
> 
> seemingly bottomless, merciless virulence, this miasma, in the
> 
> hope of helping to replenish the means of our deliverance.
> 
> --Lissa Wolsak
> 
> 
> Finally, a gringo poet ready to offend all takers, even while
> 
> defending the likes of me. Many of these poems push you off the
> 
> long chow line of mutual admiration, asking where you stand right
> 
> now. Walk in at your own risk: Kent Johnson takes no prisoners.
> 
> --Ammiel Alcalay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 21 15:29:50 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:29:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Olson and the different Buddhisms
References: <42.6d8a837b.301124bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002001c58e2a$902d5db0$47aa3452@ANNY>

My knowledge of _pertinax_ is pertinacious - _pertinace_ in Italian, stubborn, fixed, persistent. I could also imagine a plant, possibly a climbing plant, google gave a bee and a parakeet

A bee, Eristalis Pertinax
http://www.biopix.dk/Species.asp?Language=en-us&Searchtext=Eristalis%20pertinax&Category=Insekter

A bird:
Brown-Throated Conure or Aratinga Pertinax - from the Virgin Islands among the Endangered Species
http://www.stephencresswell.com/s/6712.html
also called Aratinga pertinax arubensis

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 6:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Olson and the different Buddhisms


  I see I let a typo thru...penultimate line should be "calm and waiting,..."

  What do people make of 'pertinax' (line 19)...



  Pertinax (Publius Helvius Pertinax), 126?193, Roman emperor (193), b. Liguria. Formerly a general, he reluctantly succeeded Commodus on the throne. Attempting to curb license in the Praetorian Guard, he was slain by a soldier, thus ending his brief reign of three months. Didius Julianus succeeded him. 


  If so, why not capped? Is there a Latin root/meaning to the word that
  would be pertinent. A plant with the same name?
  Finnegan

  In a message dated 7/21/2005 11:58:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
      December 22nd

      The sea
      is right up against the skin of the shore with a tide
      as high
      as this one, the rocks
      stretched, Half Moon Beach
      swallowed (to its bank), Shag Rock
      now by itself away from
      the Island, the Island
      itself a floating 
      cruiser or ironclad
      Monitor, all laid out on top of the water, the whole
      full landscape a
      Buddhist
      message, Japanese
      Buddhism and maybe,
      behind it, exactly in these tightened coves, Chinese
      Buddhism, fullness and
      pertinax, sharp drawn
      lesson, the rocks
      melting
      into the sea, the forests
      behind, transparent
      from the light snow showing
      lost rocks and hills
      which one doesn't, ordinarily,
      know, all the sea
      cam and waiting, having
      come so far.

      --Charles Olson, from The Maximus Poems, 
      U. of California, c1983, p. 482


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



    This seems to be a rare moment of lyricism and lucidity in Olson?s Maximus. Sounds a lot like Williams, too. For my taste, though, I?ll take Basil Bunting over most of the other descendents of Pound. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Jul 21 15:34:59 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:34:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz
Message-ID: <s2dfb29a.046@mail.highland.edu>

Marcus said:

>And of his great modesty, Kent Johnson says nothing.


Geez, it's a book announcement, Marcus, that's all. No need to get all
fussy and stuff.

Plus, I don't have a blog...

Kent

(P.S. One of the poems, the longest one in the book, is my own little
contribution to the obscure archives of prosody--a form I invented,
called the "Mandrake." Maybe you'd like to write a review?!)



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 21 15:53:29 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:53:29 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ludwig Van
References: <9b1b9dab0507201800613c392e@mail.gmail.com><20050721100630.77503.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com><9b1b9dab05072109101b2477a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a050721102239fb490a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004601c58e2d$de168ee0$47aa3452@ANNY>

This is quite funny, because one of my many hobbies is Astrology and artistic creativity is often connected with spirituality (or with the Superior Being - see Oscar Adler in this case) and the outcome of positive aspects like a conjunction or a trine. While an illness like Manic Depression is usually triggered by negative ones like oppositions and squares.

What I want to say is that this association is negative under all aspects, and as a teacher I would not use this biographical information to introduce the author, but maybe turn it the other way round, something like,
given his/her severe disease, s/he was anyhow able to stand out and create,

Anny Ballardini
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: Chris Lott ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Ludwig Van


  I read a great deal of that book when I was in graduate school.  I was working on a novel-length manuscript with a central character who was a bi-polar musician.  I remember the book being informative; but in retrospect, it seemed to feed the myth that all creative types have some kind of "loose screw." 

  Jeff Newberry

   
  On 7/21/05, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote: 
    On 7/21/05, Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com> wrote:
    > who?s it by? 

    Touched With Fire: Manic Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament
    Kay Jamison

    c
    --
    Chris Lott

    -- 
    "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death." 
                                                       --Miguel de Unamuno

    Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 21 16:07:53 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:07:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz
References: <s2dfacc0.022@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <005f01c58e2f$e1100de0$47aa3452@ANNY>

Compliments Kent for your many books,
am I the only one who cannot open the link you provide?

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.


From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 9:09 PM


> (Just out: the information and cover can be viewed at 
> http://osnapper.typepad.com/snappersjunk/
> Scott Pierce, editor of Effing Press, has done a wonderful job producing 
> this book! )
>
>
> from Effing Press: LYRIC POETRY AFTER AUSCHWITZ by Kent Johnson
>
>
> Lyric Poetry After Auschwitz: Eleven Submissions to the War
>
> by Kent Johnson
>
> 44 pages w/ code orange end papers
>
> $7.00
>
> ***
>
> I think "Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz" is by far the most relevant
>
> poem for/in/about this War* It is a poem for our time.
>
> --Ethan Paquin
>
>
> Like the Jews, if Kent Johnson didn't exist, someone would have to
>
> invent him. His mind leaks nomads...
>
> --Alan Sondheim
>
>
> This collection finds Johnson representing our fiendish blind spots,
>
> the nature of those far cries of human murderousness alongside
>
> the fragility of identity and dignity, wielding homeopathically this
>
> seemingly bottomless, merciless virulence, this miasma, in the
>
> hope of helping to replenish the means of our deliverance.
>
> --Lissa Wolsak
>
>
> Finally, a gringo poet ready to offend all takers, even while
>
> defending the likes of me. Many of these poems push you off the
>
> long chow line of mutual admiration, asking where you stand right
>
> now. Walk in at your own risk: Kent Johnson takes no prisoners.
>
> --Ammiel Alcalay
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From chris.lott at gmail.com  Thu Jul 21 16:32:12 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:32:12 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ludwig Van
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050721102239fb490a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9b1b9dab0507201800613c392e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050721100630.77503.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com>
	<9b1b9dab05072109101b2477a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a050721102239fb490a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab050721133255c7097d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/21/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
> I read a great deal of that book when I was in graduate school.  I was
> working on a novel-length manuscript with a central character who was a
> bi-polar musician.  I remember the book being informative; but in
> retrospect, it seemed to feed the myth that all creative types have some
> kind of "loose screw." 

Well, as I said in my original post-- I'm not sure that the numbers
actually support the theory that creativity is more abundant in those
with psychological disorders, but I'm not up on the
literature/studies. I just remember this being an interesting read on
the topic itself. Like most of the discussions, it's heavily
anecdotal...

c
-- 
Chris Lott



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Jul 21 16:43:31 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:43:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ludwig Van
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab050721133255c7097d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9b1b9dab0507201800613c392e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050721100630.77503.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com>
	<9b1b9dab05072109101b2477a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a050721102239fb490a@mail.gmail.com>
	<9b1b9dab050721133255c7097d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0507211343ee69850@mail.gmail.com>

Chris,
 I didn't mean to sound dismissive about *Touched with Fire.*
 I enjoyed reading it, actually. I remember that at the time, I was 
convinced that I myself had something wrong upstairs, as I spent a good deal 
of my time wallowing in depression and self-pity. I was also worried that 
I'd never be "A WRITER," the caps indicative of how I concieved of writing. 
So, I suppose that *Touched with Fire* went on to fuel my belief that I was 
a tortured, misunderstood poetic genius.
 I turn 31 on Saturday, and each year that I live, my 22-year-old self 
becomes more and more of an arrogant idiot.
 I hope that no one ever sees my journals from that time period. Sheesh.
 (Of course, I do still have them, you know, just in case . . . )
 Jeff Newberry ;-)

 On 7/21/05, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> On 7/21/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I read a great deal of that book when I was in graduate school. I was
> > working on a novel-length manuscript with a central character who was a
> > bi-polar musician. I remember the book being informative; but in
> > retrospect, it seemed to feed the myth that all creative types have some
> > kind of "loose screw."
> 
> Well, as I said in my original post-- I'm not sure that the numbers
> actually support the theory that creativity is more abundant in those
> with psychological disorders, but I'm not up on the
> literature/studies. I just remember this being an interesting read on
> the topic itself. Like most of the discussions, it's heavily
> anecdotal...
> 
> c
> --
> Chris Lott
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Jul 21 16:46:02 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:46:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Chicago Review (with apologies to Marcus)
Message-ID: <s2dfc35c.005@mail.highland.edu>

With apologies to Marcus (and anyone else who might be offended), I have
one more announcement to make related to a publication of mine. The new
Chicago Review is just here, this featuring a festschrift for the poet,
translator, story writer, and critic Christopher Middleton, with
contributions from Yvonne Jacquette, August Kleinzahler, Zulfikar Ghose,
Keith Waldrop, Rosmarie Waldrop, and others. Among lots of great stuff
is a lively, terrific essay by David Hadbawnik of The Miseries of
Poetry: Traductions from the Greek, traduced by Alexandra Papaditsas and
Kent Johnson, Skanky Possum, 2004. (I think I had posted here an
announcement of the reissue of this book by the Cambridge Conference of
Contemporary Poetry Press in the UK. I'll post the ordering info again
(and again, with apologies to Marcus) when the copies arrive, which
should be any day. Another book, Dear Lacan: An Analysis in
Correspondence, is being published simultaneously by CCCP, and I'll post
(and once again, with apologies to Marcus) an announcement of that, as
well.  

(Just joshing with you, Marcus! Though by the way, your analogy of
poetry with planes, trains, and automobiles is rather odd--means of
transportation are distinguishable and identifiable because of the
verifiably different things they do and the different ways they do it;
no one knows what poetry does or how it does it, and that is why poetry
doesn't necessarily run on rails, so you see the problem...)

Those of you who haven't seen the previous two issues of Chicago
Review, the book-length special issues on Ed Dorn and Louis Zukofsky,
are really missing something.

Kent



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Jul 21 18:16:38 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:16:38 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Smith and Dickinson
References: <731bb17a05072106236fec3631@mail.gmail.com>
	<035201c58e09$205f6620$d8309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <044501c58e41$de5e7d40$d8309b51@Robin>

> That her closest analogue in USAmerican poetry is Emily Dickinson?

Just to amplify this (and be a little more specific), compare "Do Take
Muriel Out" and "Because I Would Not Stop For Death".

Before the phrase was coined, both poets were seriously into a strange blend
of death and sex and rock and roll.

(Before my earlier post, I hadn't read the article pointed to in the URL
that Jeff Newberry cited, but having done so, I'm struck by the way that
while people may disagree over Stevie Smith, it seems that we all end-up
pointing to the same things.

But then, how do you talk about Shakespeare without referring to Lear and
Hamlet?)

The Stoned Dormouse.

[As a snarled aside, what's behind the latest riff on the wrinkles of worm
weather in cyberspace?  Being dumped from a list without notice?

I wouldn't bother to draw attention to this, that my latest two posts to
SHAKSPER seem to have been Silently Censored, if it wasn't that Bob Grumman
of this ilk had a post there saying virtually what I did.

Bob's post admittedly was nicer than mine (and more succinct), but lacked
the wealth of references I had around "codswallop".

This is beyond coincidence and well into synchronicity.

                :-(

A Paranoid From Glasgow.]




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 21 20:30:40 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:30:40 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jameson/Perelman<>Lukacs/Brecht
Message-ID: <200507212307.j6LN7QrG251886@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Kent---
largely agree with what you say. I'd add that Jameson himself however
in many ways could be said to do the same thing as what he "critiques" in
Perelman (i.e.---as you write

    a function of cultural fragmentation and
> alienation in general, reflecting, in a sense, the very forces it would
> claim to critique.

I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion of jameson here
(i'd have to find some old box from 10 years ago and dig up my papers)

But as for the Perelman, I did think his work got much less "fragmented"
than that early poem in his best books of the late 1980s where he seemed
to break out of that mere "reflecting" of the "very forces it would claim to
critique" at least relative to many of the other lang. pos (Andrews
specifically).....

But even that discussion is tiring to me now...
The way I see it now both the lang pos and Jameson largely sacrificed
social critique for the 'demands' of their genre; the "make it new" aspect
that turns theory into a terminological shell-game; "Hmmm, how can I combine
Freudian terms with 'vulgar Marxist' terms and throw in a little Gramsci
and Zizekisms, with a nod to Judith Butler to reveal the ultimate Derridean
slippage of the divine aporia" blah blah blah....
Not to come out against theory per se...


Now, BRECHT, that's a more interesting question--as so many of his poems
have alot of "socialist realist" elements, as well as an accessibility.
Sure, there's limits to brecht, and Lukacs and Benjamin and even Adorno.
can be useful for pointing it out---
But in general the "left" in America has already embraced more aspects
of the latter theorists than the former (and what has been the effect of
this? Perhaps what you say below about the erasure of any class-based
critique?). So, I tend to think a little more of "vulgar" Brecht is probably
more needed....

I'm dashing this off right now, but I guess I'm also thinking of your post
from the other day praising Hilton Kramer. I totally see what you mean....

Is it kind of like "air America" giving a backhanded compliment to Rush
Limbaugh?

C



----------
>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Jameson/Perelman<>Lukacs/Brecht
>Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 11:01 AM
>

> Chris, it's been a long time since I read "Postmodernism, or, the
> Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism." But Jameson is open about his debt
> to Lukacsian aesthetics (though in the "neo" sense--he's hardly an
> advocate of Socialist Realism as Lukacs was), so he holds Perelman's
> poem up as example of the ways late-capitalism drives literature away
> from politically effective "realist" models and into non-syllogistic
> (schizophrenic, as he has it) aesthetic dead ends, where textual
> fragmentation becomes a function of cultural fragmentation and
> alienation in general, reflecting, in a sense, the very forces it would
> claim to critique. His argument is very much in the tradition of
> Lukacs's polemics against Brecht earlier in the century--this the
> seminal debate in 20th cent. Marxist aesthetics. Viewed from that angle,
> it makes for an interesting comparison, since at the time of Jameson's
> essay, many of the key figures in Language poetry openly proclaimed
> their Marxism (fuzzy and social democratic as it tended to be), so one
> could see the minor fisticuffs that developed as an update in microcosm
> of the previous split. I say "minor" because the reaction of the Langpos
> was very timid--not much was said at all--the most extended response, I
> believe, was George Hartley's, in one of the early book-length
> considerations fo Language Poetry (I can't recall it's title).
>
> Of course, most of the original key figures of the Language group
> (along with their post-avant heirs) have become unembarrassed
> cheerleaders of the Democratic Party or else no longer much interested
> (apparently) in the relationship between poetic experiment and political
> critique. So likely a Jameson would choose a different and more
> relevantly political target to make his or her points these days.
>
> But you're probably right that in the long run this was good publicity
> for the group, all in all: one of its first real "academic" treatments.
> And lord knows there have been lots of those since then!
>
> Kent
>
> *
>
> Chris S. said:
>
>>Kent---was that piece really an assault? I've heard people say that
> before,
>       but when I read it (like 15 years ago now), it just seemed like
>       great publicity, like "here's a poem that illustrates my thesis
>       about the schizoid split of the subject under capitalism" blah
> blah
> etc....
>      with assailants like that, who needs an attorney?
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 21 19:35:12 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:35:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Kent Johnson
Message-ID: <001301c58e4c$d77b06f0$33ad3452@ANNY>

I received the following poem Kent Johnson sent me to forward to the list upon my request, taken from his latest book: Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz. Italics and formatting went lost since Johnson does not use the HTML format with his mails.


[author's note]

The following poem represents the first instance of a new poetic form. I have christened it the "Mandrake" (the name used for the mayapple [Podophyllum peltatum] by various 16th and 17th century English poets). Those who would attempt the form in the future must adhere to the following guidelines:

The first, third, fifth, seventh, ninth, eleventh, and thirteenth stanzas (all of them as a group called the "flower") must make some kind of reference to one or two poets of a preceding poetic generation; all of the poets referred to in each of the flower stanzas must have been contemporaries of one another. The stanzas may be written in any meter, rhymed or unrhymed, and may be of any length (prose poetry is also acceptable, as this first example makes clear), but each stanza in the flower must exhibit some sense of parallelism in theme and syntactic logic to its companion flower stanzas.

The second, fourth, sixth, eighth, tenth, twelfth, and final fourteenth stanzas (all of them as a group called the "fruit") must be rendered in prose, with a majority of these stanzas constituting quoted material. There are no other guidelines for the fruit, save that the fruit as a whole be totally dissimilar in theme(s) and tone from the flower, and that the final fourteenth stanza have some reference to the mayapple's seasonal companion, the morel mushroom (in any of the morchella species). 

Finally, any "Mandrake" must be led off by some kind of brief introduction, as this originating example is (i.e., the one you are reading right now), so as to provide the poem with a kind of critical or anecdotal stem, a little bit of hollow "normal discourse" propping up the contrapuntal dissonances of theme and tone which the prosodic grid outlined above will inevitably proffer.
  
*   *   *


The New York School (or: I Grew Ever More Intense)


I turned over the bottle of shampoo, and Frank O'Hara came out. I rubbed him all into my head, letting the foam rise, knowing I was just warming myself up, excited by the excess of what was to come. Soon, I began to make noisy climax sounds. The scent of oranges and oil paint from a general store in the outlaw town of Shishido (with all of its exotic wares) filled the stormy air.

I couldn't help it, I thought of this: "One day, a fortnight or so after my mother's death in Shishido, I was up in the hills playing with some friends. Suddenly one of them said, "Look, the baby's hands are all swollen." I touched the baby, which was still strapped to my back, and screamed*it was stone cold. My friends began to panic and jump up and down, shouting "It's dead, it's dead." It felt awful having something dead tied to me, so I ripped off my jacket and dropped the baby, before joining the others as they ran back down the hill as fast as their legs would take them, shrieking."

I grew ever more intense. I pressed the button on the shaving cream and Barbara Guest came out. I smoothed her taut-as-a-canvass-body all over my cheeks and neck and chin and then I made some hills and valleys in her flatness, using my fingers in an artistic way. The complex smell of dark woods outside the Kamakura town of Hokaisu after a sudden shower (including the eastern smells of sake, persimmon, cicada, cherry blossom, fugu, and haiku) filled the humid air.

I couldn't help it, I thought of this: "Accounts of the horror in the town of Hokaisu have the quality of Hieronymus Bosch's grotesque tableaux of apocalypse: torched villages; macheted babies in the streets; stoned child warriors indulging in cannibalism and draping themselves with the entrails of their victims; peacekeepers*mostly Uruguayans*using their guns only to drive off waves of frantic civilians seeking refuge in their already overflowing compound; a quarter of a million people in frenzied flight from their homes*Hundreds of thousands of Congolese have been killed in the fighting, and many more have died as a consequence of the displacement, disease, and hunger that attend it."

I grew ever more intense. I turned over the aftershave and Ted Berrigan came out. I slapped him just as he was, all pudgy with things, on my face, and he stung, and I yelled at him. I liked it, so I slapped him on me again, hard, and again, yet, then thrice more, and I yelled without restraint. The complex scent of medieval Kyoto filled the heavy air, and there were great wooden and paper prefectures, and lots of people with feelings, and fears, and things like that, just running around like ants, they were, and many kimonoed poets also, their faces lit weirdly by ancient electric screens, competing for cultural capital in a big interactive board game with manifold levels, like in Go, and the stakes were high, very high, for Volvo driving academics died for lack of what was found there.

I couldn't help it. I thought of this: "I was so surprised to see the dark sky over New York with all the red flames through the window because it was only a few minutes before when the sky was blue and clear. It was all quiet and the city was wrapped, enveloped in red flames. Mr. Wakita came to help me. He asked me if I wanted to swim across the river. The bridge was burning and the river was very high. I had no choice. I could barely see by then, though. And Mr. Wakita took my arms and told me to swim across the river together with him, so together we went into the river and began to swim. "Swim, you blistered dead baby, swim," he cried, though why he chose these words, I do not know. When we reached the middle of the river, I could no longer see anything and I was starting to feel faint. And as I began to feel faint, I also began to lose control. Mr. Wakita encouraged me and helped me to reach the other side of the river. Finally, we reached the other side. What surprised me so much was all the cries of the students for help and for their mothers. It just didn't stop. I couldn't see anything. All I could do was listen to their cries. I asked my teacher, I asked him what was going on. Mr. Wakita explained to me how the high school students were burnt and crouching in pain in the streets, many of them urinating and defecating openly. I couldn't see anything* Some called for help in vain, and some jumped into the river and drowned to death. If my teacher, Mr. Wakita had not come to help me, I would have died in the Hudson River."

I grew ever more intense. I squeezed the toothpaste tube and James Schuyler came out. I scrubbed him with my brush against my teeth, looking at myself in the mirror and him all white in my mouth. He tasted like old apricots or hot-house nasturtiums. I spit him out and the smell of the futuristic city of Pyongyang, when the red calia flower (which symbolizes the Four Eternal Qualities of the Great Leader) is in bloom in all the places of that magical city, where everyone feels gratitude and joy, even though, advanced as these comrades are, they still harbor the prejudices that this poem is not as good as it would be if it had been published in print, in one of the clubby Pyongyang venues of the day, like, say, Fuck You: A Journal of the Arts.

I couldn't help myself, I thought of this: "The fourteen young soldiers of the Al-Quram Division, all of them descendants of the NSA-created Royal Court of Pyongyang, mummified by the dry heat but otherwise intact, were found in their sand bunker, crouched and huddled, fetus-like, in a corner, their hands pressed to their ears, their mouths wide open, lips pulled back over their teeth, each in near identical pose and position. Blood from their mouths, ears, noses, urethras, and rectums was caked thickly to their uniforms and bodies. They had been killed by the cumulative force of the Daisy Cutter concussions."

I grew ever more intense. I turned the button on the deodorant stick and Joseph Ceravolo came out. I slid his bald head back and forth under my arms and began to sing a romantic leider by Harry Partch as arranged by Pauline Oliveros. The aroma of an oil refinery in the twelfth century town of Ishido filled the air, and beneath its huge candled fires, tail-finned cars moved silently in a long slow line, and homeless people, expelled from their lands by the evil Lord of the School of Quietude, with only wooden shingles to cover their private parts, lay motionless under rows of ultra-violet lamps, their necks bizarrely contorted until buds of brown buds sprouted all over their fluorescent bodies, and these, after a time, caught fire as if of themselves; thus the homeless people perished in this way, giving off the most theatrical screams. They almost sounded like people on fire, jumping from great, towered heights far away in the future, kicking their flame-licked legs the whole way down, you know what I mean, don't you, David Shapiro, you with your spine full of elms, each elm full of little wrens, each wren making a song of green and mauve weather in the elms in your spine; but wait, that's not possible, how could a person have a bunch of singing birds in his spine, oh shut up Joe LeSueur, you pretty geisha boy, end of stanza.

I couldn't help it, I thought of this: "Mr. Giap and his buddies, all illegal immigrants from the town of Ishido, had eaten some rare fresh meat that had suddenly become available in the local market in Saigon one day in 1969, he recalled. Then the U.S. military police came around asking whether anyone had bought that meat in the market. "Some American soldiers who were hungry and full of drugs had raped and killed the boy and cooked some of his meat with a flame thrower and eaten it and then sold the rest to the local merchant, and we bought it from that merchant," Mr. Giap said. He added that he had heard that the American soldiers had been punished for the killing and the cannibalism," and that one of them was widely known throughout the U.S. military in Vietnam as an experimental poet of the highest order. "This just goes to show you," said Mr. Giap, tersely, "that avant-garde poets can appear anywhere and sometimes be very, very bad people." Later that day, Mr. Giap flew to a secret location to address an emergency meeting of the 19th Sector NLF Urban Command.

I grew ever more intense. I turned over the mouthwash and Kenneth Koch came out. I swished him around and gargled him, making the sound of a drowning Prince in the false 18th century Kingdom of Formosa (the name given to Japan by the infamous forger George Psalmanazar). He (Koch) tasted of secrets and codes, of pre-Socratic papyrus and pussy willow, of communion wafers and coleslaw. The smell of baseball, synesthesia, and Ron Padgett's funny, tiny feet bound in purple silk spun by worms grown in trailer truck laboratories furnished by U.S. government Programs for the Arts made an overdetermined smell like (for these are the smells which the pleasures of peace provide) the smell I smelled in Leningrad in 1989, when, wedged between Barrett Watten and Ron Silliman, I entered the closet-sized cloister of a Shinto temple to look at the mummified middle finger of the Russian saint Nishiwaki Junzaburo under glass. We looked at each other sidelong, like fish, each hatching our private plots, pretending we weren't looking at the other.

I couldn't help it, I thought of this: "In the Kingdom of false Formosa, a young girl, perhaps eight or nine years old, climbed out of the burning car in which her mother, father, and sister sat dead, their open-eyed bodies on slow fire. In shock, she walked around in tight circles, her fingers hanging by nerves and skin from her hands. She did not cry or say anything. She simply walked in circles for about five minutes, an impassive look on her face, until she slowly knelt and curled up in apparent sleep on the street, the shooting continuing above her body for another twenty minutes or so. During that time, she bled to death."

I grew ever more intense. In an outhouse on the hills of Nokaido, I wiped myself and then I went to the sink and depressed the pump on the hand soap dispenser and John Ashbery came out. I scrubbed his essence into my hands and began talking to myself in tongues. Because I was stimulated I pressed out some more of him, and rubbed him all over my calves and thighs, making some hoarse shouts. The fragrance of small birds and large flying machines fabricated of paper and piano wire filled the damp air; the machines were flying from Paris to New York, but the birds, it appeared, were migrating in the opposite way.

I couldn't help it, I thought of this: "I went morel hunting with my son the other day on the hills of Nokaido, his last spring before he leaves for university, he once swathed and strapped to my back, his life now completely other and superior to mine, his handsome looks, his clear mind, his at-ease-in-his skin mien. And at the top of the hill we found about three pounds of beautiful big mushrooms. Looking at him walking in the woods, hearing him shout out that here's another one, oh, look father, here's another one, me looking at him, thinking the most sentimental things and shielding my tears from his view: How is it possible the years have gone by like they have and that I will never get them back? How is it that this world is so full of suffering and hurt? I guess when you think about it, I thought, rubbing my drippy nose with my silk sleeve, the left sleeve, where the baby snow crane is raising his wings against the half-moon, well, I guess I've been pretty lucky after all, enjoying the pleasures of calligraphy and sake in all the surplus time the labor of others has more or less made for me. Some of us are like rain, and others of us are like the thirsty ground, and others of us are like parasitical mushrooms, especially poets, and that's just the way things have come to be. The truth is that I felt like running back down the hill as fast as my legs would take me, shrieking, seeking I do not know what. But I gathered my composure and turning toward him said, in deep fatherly voice, Ah, that is wonderful son! The gods of the forest are smiling upon us today."



_________________________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Jul 21 20:25:09 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:25:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
References: <a9.77d26743.30100233@aol.com><018d01c58d70$4fd06c40$d8309b51@Robin>
	<00c301c58e06$6383d7e0$0c099942@Helen>
Message-ID: <00da01c58e53$d439e180$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Not true on the news and politics BB that I monitor -- the ladies do stuff 
to get themselves suspended right along with the gentlemen.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)


> Probably aren't any "girls" on the list.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 5:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: from a kafir (fwd)
>
>
>> <<
>> Note: It's been my experience that it's never more than a handful
>> who need any management whatsoever. (And it's always a male
>> problem.)
>>>>
>>
>> Hey, Jim, you know you're dead right here -- why do the girls never cause
>> any problems?
>>
>>        Bit sexist that, really.
>>
>>                    <g>
>>
>> <<
>> My least favorite role is list cop. But for the uncivil
>> few, I'd never have to pin on the badge and pick up my baton.
>>>>
>>
>>        Um.  That's the case.  But too many of my friends seem to get end 
>> up
>> being bumped.
>>
>>                        Dunno why.
>>
>> <<
>> Now, back to poetry.
>>>>
>>
>> So right -- howsabout we talk about POETRY people?
>>
>>        Or even just lit?
>>
>>                    Anyone want to yell for the LLA?
>>
>> Much as I hate to admit this, there ain't *nothing* like the LLA in
>> Britland.
>>
>>        What's the best -- Stevens or Pound or Dalsheill Hamnett?
>>
>> Really, I'm strictly dumdbunny, but my money's on Hamnett.
>>
>>        But it's a close call.
>>
>>                Robin
>>
>> (Who really HATES to admit that anything you do is better than us, but
>> Sheesh Wept, you can't argue with this.)
>>
>>        [Sod you and the spavined horse you rode in on, you rotten
>> expatriate buggers.]
>>
>> Georgy the Fourth.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and 
> corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from 
> www.choicemailfree.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From clitophon at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 22 05:48:36 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:48:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ludwig Van
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0507211343ee69850@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050722094836.64345.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com>

I think depression, self-torture, arrogance and
concomitant lack of confidence are all facts of
adolescence.  we all grow out of these as we discover
the strengths and very real weaknesses, frailties.  I
actually had something wrong upstairs, as it happens,
but that is also a process, a discovery, a thinking
through or working through but I also came out of it
all terribly hurt by the entire thing.  It?s not that
I wished it upon myself or was more the author of my
misfortunes than the victim but actually fell into a
condition that is different, that is hard if not
impossible to treat and when I stoically created 2
books of poetry and a book or criticism.  That
stoicism, that strength is what we take away from the
experience, not the memories of ?gawd, how
embarrassing that episode was?, that is all forgotten
or forgettable.  Some say that we survive because we
have the capacity to forget.  PM  

--- Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:

> Chris,
>  I didn't mean to sound dismissive about *Touched
> with Fire.*
>  I enjoyed reading it, actually. I remember that at
> the time, I was 
> convinced that I myself had something wrong
> upstairs, as I spent a good deal 
> of my time wallowing in depression and self-pity. I
> was also worried that 
> I'd never be "A WRITER," the caps indicative of how
> I concieved of writing. 
> So, I suppose that *Touched with Fire* went on to
> fuel my belief that I was 
> a tortured, misunderstood poetic genius.
>  I turn 31 on Saturday, and each year that I live,
> my 22-year-old self 
> becomes more and more of an arrogant idiot.
>  I hope that no one ever sees my journals from that
> time period. Sheesh.
>  (Of course, I do still have them, you know, just in
> case . . . )
>  Jeff Newberry ;-)
> 
>  On 7/21/05, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>
> wrote: 
> > 
> > On 7/21/05, Jeff Newberry
> <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I read a great deal of that book when I was in
> graduate school. I was
> > > working on a novel-length manuscript with a
> central character who was a
> > > bi-polar musician. I remember the book being
> informative; but in
> > > retrospect, it seemed to feed the myth that all
> creative types have some
> > > kind of "loose screw."
> > 
> > Well, as I said in my original post-- I'm not sure
> that the numbers
> > actually support the theory that creativity is
> more abundant in those
> > with psychological disorders, but I'm not up on
> the
> > literature/studies. I just remember this being an
> interesting read on
> > the topic itself. Like most of the discussions,
> it's heavily
> > anecdotal...
> > 
> > c
> > --
> > Chris Lott
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing
> but death."
> --Miguel de Unamuno
> 
> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul 22 09:05:07 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:05:07 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Nikolayev
Message-ID: <003401c58ebd$fc2bcfe0$04af3252@ANNY>

A new interview with Philip Nikolayev by Jack Alun on The Argotist Online
http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Nikolayev%20interview.htm


__________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Jul 22 13:54:26 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:54:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ak Uh
Message-ID: <s2e0ec98.029@mail.highland.edu>

Some of you may have seen the posts about the Korean poet Ak Uh at
Poetics and Nada Gordon's post today, where she links to a post
pertaining partly to me at her blog. I sent this comment to her Squakbox
just now, and thought I'd share it here, for those who are following
that thread.

Kent

*

Nada,

Because I know him via an acquaintance of mine, I have been following
the Ak Uh event since the poems were originally posted. I wanted to
briefly comment on your following remark to Ak Uh: "You write better
than Kent Johnson!"

I heartily agree with your estimation of Ak Uh's idiosyncratic
excellence. But please keep in mind that it is not much of an
accomplishment to "write better than Kent Johnson," so your exclamation
is really not much of a compliment! In fact, as far back as _Doubled
Flowering: From the Notebooks of Araki Yasusada_," I wrote, in a
foreword (with Javier Alvarez) to the Appendix of that book, the
following: 

"As well, like Emily Nussbaum in her Lingua Franca article, Perloff
proposes that the author of the Yasusada writings is 'Kent Johnson,' a
hitherto unknown instructor of Spanish and remedial English composition.
Indeed, it has been the common assumption for some time in the poetry
world that Johnson is the 'culprit' of the Yasusada imbroglio, though it
is still inadequately explained how a community college Spanish teacher
with little poetic talent could have produced work that caused fairly
unbridled admiration amongst such a range of well-placed arbiters in the
world of poetry."

You obviously share the assumption that I am the Yasusada Author. And
yet (though the reasons may be quite different) I have never claimed
anything more than Ak Uh's friend claims to you: to be caretaker of an
unusual work and facilitator of its distribution. You seem to be open to
the explanation of Ak Uh's medium in the third image... Why are you so
seemingly closed to the possibility that the Yasusada writings may have
a more layered impetus and provenance? "Everyone" says 'Kent Johnson' is
Yasusada, I know. But so what? This is interesting to me.

It's strange that the indeterminacy of Ak Uh takes place on the very
eve of the appearance of the second Yasusada book, _Also, with My
Throat, I Shall Swallow Ten Thousand Swords: Araki Yasusada's Letters in
English_ , to be published by Mike Magee's Combo Books. Like Ak Uh's
writing, this book is also about the mysteries of identity, cultural
misprision, and the labyrinthine ways yearning, broken language can
spelunk, purposely or not, into something other.

I think Mike will be putting the announcement of this book up at
Poetics soon. Since readers of Poetics were led to your blog, where they
read your comments about me, perhaps you might share my reply here at
the list?

best,

Kent


From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jul 23 08:45:48 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:45:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blog question
Message-ID: <000b01c58f84$77969720$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Anyone here use Blogger? How do you set up a list of links to other blogs?

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
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From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 10:36:21 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:36:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blog question
In-Reply-To: <000b01c58f84$77969720$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <000b01c58f84$77969720$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <33abf2750507230736552e2e43@mail.gmail.com>

It seems to be another service entirely. Didn't probe far enough to confirm 
if registration is free--it looks like it is though:

*Install a blogroll.* This is similar to linking. Well actually, it's the 
same but different. Blog posts eventually drop off the front page and get 
archived. A blogroll is more of personal statement: these are the bloggers I 
like. Or, this is the crowd I'd like to be associated with. It's a very 
simple yet effective social networking scheme and it has the same result as 
a simple link if not stronger: traffic! So if you don't have one yet, sign 
up for a blogroll <http://www.blogrolling.com/> and get that link-list 
going.

http://www.blogrolling.com/



On 7/23/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
> 
> Anyone here use Blogger? How do you set up a list of links to other blogs?
>  Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 11:42:26 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:42:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?
Message-ID: <731bb17a05072308421ec797de@mail.gmail.com>

Since I'm a ripe-old 31 years old today, I'm posting my favorite birthday 
poem. I hope my "heart's truth is still sung" a year from now.
 Here's to 31 more, I hope.
 Yours, 
 Jeff Newberry
   Poem in October
Dylan Thomas
 It was my thirtieth year to heaven
Woke to my hearing from harbour and neighbour wood
And the mussel pooled and the heron
Priested shore
The morning beckon
With water praying and call of seagull and rook
And the knock of sailing boats on the net webbed wall
Myself to set foot
That second
In the still sleeping town and set forth.

My birthday began with the water-
Birds and the birds of the winged trees flying my name
Above the farms and the white horses
And I rose
In rainy autumn
And walked abroad in a shower of all my days.
High tide and the heron dived when I took the road
Over the border
And the gates
Of the town closed as the town awoke.

A springful of larks in a rolling
Cloud and the roadside bushes brimming with whistling
Blackbirds and the sun of October
Summery
On the hill's shoulder,
Here were fond climates and sweet singers suddenly
Come in the morning where I wandered and listened
To the rain wringing
Wind blow cold
In the wood faraway under me.

Pale rain over the dwindling harbour
And over the sea wet church the size of a snail
With its horns through mist and the castle
Brown as owls
But all the gardens
Of spring and summer were blooming in the tall tales
Beyond the border and under the lark full cloud.
There could I marvel
My birthday
Away but the weather turned around.

It turned away from the blithe country
And down the other air and the blue altered sky
Streamed again a wonder of summer
With apples
Pears and red currants
And I saw in the turning so clearly a child's
Forgotten mornings when he walked with his mother
Through the parables
Of sun light
And the legends of the green chapels

And the twice told fields of infancy
That his tears burned my cheeks and his heart moved in mine.
These were the woods the river and sea
Where a boy
In the listening
Summertime of the dead whispered the truth of his joy
To the trees and the stones and the fish in the tide.
And the mystery
Sang alive
Still in the water and singingbirds.

And there could I marvel my birthday
Away but the weather turned around. And the true
Joy of the long dead child sang burning
In the sun.
It was my thirtieth
Year to heaven stood there then in the summer noon
Though the town below lay leaved with October blood.
O may my heart's truth
Still be sung
On this high hill in a year's turning.


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Jul 23 12:03:57 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:03:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy birthday...
Message-ID: <s2e22442.007@mail.highland.edu>

Happy Birthday, Jeff! 

31?? 

You lucky kid, you.

Kent

Jeff Newberry said:

>Since I'm a ripe-old 31 years old today, I'm posting my favorite
birthday 
poem. I hope my "heart's truth is still sung" a year from now.
 Here's to 31 more, I hope.
 Yours, 
 Jeff Newberry



From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jul 23 14:47:44 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:47:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?
References: <731bb17a05072308421ec797de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c58fb7$06aaef60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Jeff...happy birthday, and good choice for a poem.

And here's a question, beating the Kooser dead horse again. 

Would "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" make the cut for newspaper-reader-accessible? I would say it's a poem that has moved many many readers, including the non-poetry-regulars. But it doesn't seem like a Kooser-newspaper type poem.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 11:42 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?


  Since I'm a ripe-old 31 years old today, I'm posting my favorite birthday poem.  I hope my "heart's truth is still sung" a year from now.

  Here's to 31 more, I hope.

  Yours, 

  Jeff Newberry



  Poem in October
  Dylan Thomas

  It was my thirtieth year to heaven
  Woke to my hearing from harbour and neighbour wood
      And the mussel pooled and the heron
              Priested shore
          The morning beckon
  With water praying and call of seagull and rook 
  And the knock of sailing boats on the net webbed wall
          Myself to set foot
              That second
  In the still sleeping town and set forth.

      My birthday began with the water-
  Birds and the birds of the winged trees flying my name 
      Above the farms and the white horses
              And I rose
          In rainy autumn
  And walked abroad in a shower of all my days.
  High tide and the heron dived when I took the road
          Over the border 
              And the gates
  Of the town closed as the town awoke.

      A springful of larks in a rolling
  Cloud and the roadside bushes brimming with whistling
      Blackbirds and the sun of October
              Summery 
          On the hill's shoulder,
  Here were fond climates and sweet singers suddenly
  Come in the morning where I wandered and listened
          To the rain wringing
              Wind blow cold
  In the wood faraway under me. 

      Pale rain over the dwindling harbour
  And over the sea wet church the size of a snail
      With its horns through mist and the castle
              Brown as owls
          But all the gardens
  Of spring and summer were blooming in the tall tales 
  Beyond the border and under the lark full cloud.
          There could I marvel
              My birthday
  Away but the weather turned around.

      It turned away from the blithe country
  And down the other air and the blue altered sky 
      Streamed again a wonder of summer
              With apples
          Pears and red currants
  And I saw in the turning so clearly a child's
  Forgotten mornings when he walked with his mother
          Through the parables 
              Of sun light
  And the legends of the green chapels

      And the twice told fields of infancy
  That his tears burned my cheeks and his heart moved in mine.
      These were the woods the river and sea 
              Where a boy
          In the listening
  Summertime of the dead whispered the truth of his joy
  To the trees and the stones and the fish in the tide.
          And the mystery
              Sang alive 
  Still in the water and singingbirds.

      And there could I marvel my birthday
  Away but the weather turned around. And the true
      Joy of the long dead child sang burning
              In the sun.
          It was my thirtieth 
  Year to heaven stood there then in the summer noon
  Though the town below lay leaved with October blood.
          O may my heart's truth
              Still be sung
  On this high hill in a year's turning.


  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ 

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Sat Jul 23 16:16:44 2005
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:16:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] summer pop quiz
Message-ID: <200507232021.j6NKLijn010227@d01av02.pok.ibm.com>

Who is the poet.  On a scale of 0 (low) to 10 (high) rate it.

FOR AN OLD GIRLFRIEND, LONG DEAD

Lying on that blanket, nights on the seventh green --
in the dry air the faint scent of gasoline,

nothing above us but the ragged moon,
nothing between but a whispered (ital.) soon...

Well, such was romance in the seventies.
Watergate and Cambodia, the public lies,

made our love seem, somehow, more true.
Of the few things I wanted then, I (ital) needed you.

I remember our last arguments, my angry calls,
then the long silence, those northern falls

we drifted toward our newly manufactured lives.
Does anything else of us survive?

That day in Paris, perhaps, when you swore
our crummy hotel was all you were looking for--

each cobbled Paris street, each dry baguette,
even the worthless sous nothing you'd forget.

Outside, a block away, the endless Seine
flowed roughly, then brightly, then...

Then nothing. Nothing later went quite that far.
I remember that spring.  Those breasts. That car.


Richard


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jul 23 16:55:32 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:55:32 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?
References: <731bb17a05072308421ec797de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009001c58fc8$de05cb40$95a83852@ANNY>

Happy Birthday Jeff, and tomorrow it will be 49 for me! 

Anny Ballardini
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:42 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?


  Since I'm a ripe-old 31 years old today, I'm posting my favorite birthday poem.  I hope my "heart's truth is still sung" a year from now.

  Here's to 31 more, I hope.

  Yours, 

  Jeff Newberry



  Poem in October
  Dylan Thomas

  It was my thirtieth year to heaven
  Woke to my hearing from harbour and neighbour wood
      And the mussel pooled and the heron
              Priested shore
          The morning beckon
  With water praying and call of seagull and rook 
  And the knock of sailing boats on the net webbed wall
          Myself to set foot
              That second
  In the still sleeping town and set forth.

      My birthday began with the water-
  Birds and the birds of the winged trees flying my name 
      Above the farms and the white horses
              And I rose
          In rainy autumn
  And walked abroad in a shower of all my days.
  High tide and the heron dived when I took the road
          Over the border 
              And the gates
  Of the town closed as the town awoke.

      A springful of larks in a rolling
  Cloud and the roadside bushes brimming with whistling
      Blackbirds and the sun of October
              Summery 
          On the hill's shoulder,
  Here were fond climates and sweet singers suddenly
  Come in the morning where I wandered and listened
          To the rain wringing
              Wind blow cold
  In the wood faraway under me. 

      Pale rain over the dwindling harbour
  And over the sea wet church the size of a snail
      With its horns through mist and the castle
              Brown as owls
          But all the gardens
  Of spring and summer were blooming in the tall tales 
  Beyond the border and under the lark full cloud.
          There could I marvel
              My birthday
  Away but the weather turned around.

      It turned away from the blithe country
  And down the other air and the blue altered sky 
      Streamed again a wonder of summer
              With apples
          Pears and red currants
  And I saw in the turning so clearly a child's
  Forgotten mornings when he walked with his mother
          Through the parables 
              Of sun light
  And the legends of the green chapels

      And the twice told fields of infancy
  That his tears burned my cheeks and his heart moved in mine.
      These were the woods the river and sea 
              Where a boy
          In the listening
  Summertime of the dead whispered the truth of his joy
  To the trees and the stones and the fish in the tide.
          And the mystery
              Sang alive 
  Still in the water and singingbirds.

      And there could I marvel my birthday
  Away but the weather turned around. And the true
      Joy of the long dead child sang burning
              In the sun.
          It was my thirtieth 
  Year to heaven stood there then in the summer noon
  Though the town below lay leaved with October blood.
          O may my heart's truth
              Still be sung
  On this high hill in a year's turning.


  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ 

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From mandolin at mac.com  Sat Jul 23 21:26:37 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:26:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blog question
In-Reply-To: <000b01c58f84$77969720$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <000b01c58f84$77969720$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <114A2C89-3316-4362-A46B-51E79EB0E259@mac.com>


On Jul 23, 2005, at 8:45 , The Old Mole wrote:

> Anyone here use Blogger? How do you set up a list of links to other  
> blogs?
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


Under the Template tab in your dashboard, search for "sidebar," and  
in the place where you want your lblogrool to appear, insert code  
soemthing like what's below between the dashed lines (<!-- --> is a  
comment)

It's just an html unordered list of links.

<!-- Begin #sidebar :: left column :: blog archives, links -->
                 <div id="sidebar">

--------
                    <!--  My Edit -->
                    <h2 class="My Blogroll">
                      <ul>
                        <li><a href="http://www.acoolblog.com">A Cool  
Blog</a></li>
                        <li><a href="http:// 
flakeblog.blogspot.com">Fake Blogger</a></li>
                         <!-- more blogs -->
                    </ul>
                    <!--  My Edit Ends -->
------------


From mandolin at mac.com  Sat Jul 23 21:27:26 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:27:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05072308421ec797de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a05072308421ec797de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2564C727-77F2-470D-86E7-AA06137E1722@mac.com>

Happy birthday, Jeff!
On Jul 23, 2005, at 11:42 , Jeff Newberry wrote:

> Since I'm a ripe-old 31 years old today, I'm posting my favorite  
> birthday poem.  I hope my "heart's truth is still sung" a year from  
> now.
>
> Here's to 31 more, I hope.
>
> Yours,
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
>
> Poem in October
> Dylan Thomas
>
> It was my thirtieth year to heaven
> Woke to my hearing from harbour and neighbour wood
>     And the mussel pooled and the heron
>             Priested shore
>         The morning beckon
> With water praying and call of seagull and rook
> And the knock of sailing boats on the net webbed wall
>         Myself to set foot
>             That second
> In the still sleeping town and set forth.
>
>     My birthday began with the water-
> Birds and the birds of the winged trees flying my name
>     Above the farms and the white horses
>             And I rose
>         In rainy autumn
> And walked abroad in a shower of all my days.
> High tide and the heron dived when I took the road
>         Over the border
>             And the gates
> Of the town closed as the town awoke.
>
>     A springful of larks in a rolling
> Cloud and the roadside bushes brimming with whistling
>     Blackbirds and the sun of October
>             Summery
>         On the hill's shoulder,
> Here were fond climates and sweet singers suddenly
> Come in the morning where I wandered and listened
>         To the rain wringing
>             Wind blow cold
> In the wood faraway under me.
>
>     Pale rain over the dwindling harbour
> And over the sea wet church the size of a snail
>     With its horns through mist and the castle
>             Brown as owls
>         But all the gardens
> Of spring and summer were blooming in the tall tales
> Beyond the border and under the lark full cloud.
>         There could I marvel
>             My birthday
> Away but the weather turned around.
>
>     It turned away from the blithe country
> And down the other air and the blue altered sky
>     Streamed again a wonder of summer
>             With apples
>         Pears and red currants
> And I saw in the turning so clearly a child's
> Forgotten mornings when he walked with his mother
>         Through the parables
>             Of sun light
> And the legends of the green chapels
>
>     And the twice told fields of infancy
> That his tears burned my cheeks and his heart moved in mine.
>     These were the woods the river and sea
>             Where a boy
>         In the listening
> Summertime of the dead whispered the truth of his joy
> To the trees and the stones and the fish in the tide.
>         And the mystery
>             Sang alive
> Still in the water and singingbirds.
>
>     And there could I marvel my birthday
> Away but the weather turned around. And the true
>     Joy of the long dead child sang burning
>             In the sun.
>         It was my thirtieth
> Year to heaven stood there then in the summer noon
> Though the town below lay leaved with October blood.
>         O may my heart's truth
>             Still be sung
> On this high hill in a year's turning.
>
>
> -- 
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>                                                    --Miguel de Unamuno
>
> Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jul 23 21:28:14 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:28:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] summer pop quiz
References: <200507232021.j6NKLijn010227@d01av02.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <000601c58fee$faa9af20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Well, I know who it is, because I saw the poem in the New Yorker. It's not 
the worst poem by this guy that I've ever seen. But is it me, or is the 
scansion really clumsy? I'd give it a 4. Some good lines, but a tin ear.And 
I don't believe they'd make love on the green. Too easy to get caught. 
Somewhere on the fairway, or more likely in the rough. Unless they weren't 
into rough sex.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:16 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] summer pop quiz


> Who is the poet.  On a scale of 0 (low) to 10 (high) rate it.
>
> FOR AN OLD GIRLFRIEND, LONG DEAD
>
> Lying on that blanket, nights on the seventh green --
> in the dry air the faint scent of gasoline,
>
> nothing above us but the ragged moon,
> nothing between but a whispered (ital.) soon...
>
> Well, such was romance in the seventies.
> Watergate and Cambodia, the public lies,
>
> made our love seem, somehow, more true.
> Of the few things I wanted then, I (ital) needed you.
>
> I remember our last arguments, my angry calls,
> then the long silence, those northern falls
>
> we drifted toward our newly manufactured lives.
> Does anything else of us survive?
>
> That day in Paris, perhaps, when you swore
> our crummy hotel was all you were looking for--
>
> each cobbled Paris street, each dry baguette,
> even the worthless sous nothing you'd forget.
>
> Outside, a block away, the endless Seine
> flowed roughly, then brightly, then...
>
> Then nothing. Nothing later went quite that far.
> I remember that spring.  Those breasts. That car.
>
>
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jul 23 21:30:23 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:30:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?
References: <731bb17a05072308421ec797de@mail.gmail.com>
	<009001c58fc8$de05cb40$95a83852@ANNY>
Message-ID: <002b01c58fef$490335b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Happy Birthday Anny! And the two of you together are older than me.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: Jeff Newberry ; NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?


  Happy Birthday Jeff, and tomorrow it will be 49 for me! 

  Anny Ballardini
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Jeff Newberry 
    To: NewPoetry 
    Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:42 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?


    Since I'm a ripe-old 31 years old today, I'm posting my favorite birthday poem.  I hope my "heart's truth is still sung" a year from now.

    Here's to 31 more, I hope.

    Yours, 

    Jeff Newberry



    Poem in October
    Dylan Thomas

    It was my thirtieth year to heaven
    Woke to my hearing from harbour and neighbour wood
        And the mussel pooled and the heron
                Priested shore
            The morning beckon
    With water praying and call of seagull and rook 
    And the knock of sailing boats on the net webbed wall
            Myself to set foot
                That second
    In the still sleeping town and set forth.

        My birthday began with the water-
    Birds and the birds of the winged trees flying my name 
        Above the farms and the white horses
                And I rose
            In rainy autumn
    And walked abroad in a shower of all my days.
    High tide and the heron dived when I took the road
            Over the border 
                And the gates
    Of the town closed as the town awoke.

        A springful of larks in a rolling
    Cloud and the roadside bushes brimming with whistling
        Blackbirds and the sun of October
                Summery 
            On the hill's shoulder,
    Here were fond climates and sweet singers suddenly
    Come in the morning where I wandered and listened
            To the rain wringing
                Wind blow cold
    In the wood faraway under me. 

        Pale rain over the dwindling harbour
    And over the sea wet church the size of a snail
        With its horns through mist and the castle
                Brown as owls
            But all the gardens
    Of spring and summer were blooming in the tall tales 
    Beyond the border and under the lark full cloud.
            There could I marvel
                My birthday
    Away but the weather turned around.

        It turned away from the blithe country
    And down the other air and the blue altered sky 
        Streamed again a wonder of summer
                With apples
            Pears and red currants
    And I saw in the turning so clearly a child's
    Forgotten mornings when he walked with his mother
            Through the parables 
                Of sun light
    And the legends of the green chapels

        And the twice told fields of infancy
    That his tears burned my cheeks and his heart moved in mine.
        These were the woods the river and sea 
                Where a boy
            In the listening
    Summertime of the dead whispered the truth of his joy
    To the trees and the stones and the fish in the tide.
            And the mystery
                Sang alive 
    Still in the water and singingbirds.

        And there could I marvel my birthday
    Away but the weather turned around. And the true
        Joy of the long dead child sang burning
                In the sun.
            It was my thirtieth 
    Year to heaven stood there then in the summer noon
    Though the town below lay leaved with October blood.
            O may my heart's truth
                Still be sung
    On this high hill in a year's turning.


    -- 
    "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                       --Miguel de Unamuno

    Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ 

     


----------------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul 24 03:56:54 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:56:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?
References: <731bb17a05072308421ec797de@mail.gmail.com><009001c58fc8$de05cb40$95a83852@ANNY>
	<002b01c58fef$490335b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <009a01c59025$420cc510$7c8f3052@ANNY>

You see that you are _Young_! I've always said so, :-)

Thank you and a great Day, 

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.

  From: The Old Mole 
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?


  Happy Birthday Anny! And the two of you together are older than me.


  Tad Richards
  www.opus40.org
  http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:55 PM


    Happy Birthday Jeff, and tomorrow it will be 49 for me! 

    Anny Ballardini
      From: Jeff Newberry 
      Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:42 PM


      Since I'm a ripe-old 31 years old today, I'm posting my favorite birthday poem.  I hope my "heart's truth is still sung" a year from now.

      Here's to 31 more, I hope.

      Yours, 

      Jeff Newberry



      Poem in October
      Dylan Thomas

      It was my thirtieth year to heaven
      Woke to my hearing from harbour and neighbour wood
          And the mussel pooled and the heron
                  Priested shore
              The morning beckon
      With water praying and call of seagull and rook 
      And the knock of sailing boats on the net webbed wall
              Myself to set foot
                  That second
      In the still sleeping town and set forth.

          My birthday began with the water-
      Birds and the birds of the winged trees flying my name 
          Above the farms and the white horses
                  And I rose
              In rainy autumn
      And walked abroad in a shower of all my days.
      High tide and the heron dived when I took the road
              Over the border 
                  And the gates
      Of the town closed as the town awoke.

          A springful of larks in a rolling
      Cloud and the roadside bushes brimming with whistling
          Blackbirds and the sun of October
                  Summery 
              On the hill's shoulder,
      Here were fond climates and sweet singers suddenly
      Come in the morning where I wandered and listened
              To the rain wringing
                  Wind blow cold
      In the wood faraway under me. 

          Pale rain over the dwindling harbour
      And over the sea wet church the size of a snail
          With its horns through mist and the castle
                  Brown as owls
              But all the gardens
      Of spring and summer were blooming in the tall tales 
      Beyond the border and under the lark full cloud.
              There could I marvel
                  My birthday
      Away but the weather turned around.

          It turned away from the blithe country
      And down the other air and the blue altered sky 
          Streamed again a wonder of summer
                  With apples
              Pears and red currants
      And I saw in the turning so clearly a child's
      Forgotten mornings when he walked with his mother
              Through the parables 
                  Of sun light
      And the legends of the green chapels

          And the twice told fields of infancy
      That his tears burned my cheeks and his heart moved in mine.
          These were the woods the river and sea 
                  Where a boy
              In the listening
      Summertime of the dead whispered the truth of his joy
      To the trees and the stones and the fish in the tide.
              And the mystery
                  Sang alive 
      Still in the water and singingbirds.

          And there could I marvel my birthday
      Away but the weather turned around. And the true
          Joy of the long dead child sang burning
                  In the sun.
              It was my thirtieth 
      Year to heaven stood there then in the summer noon
      Though the town below lay leaved with October blood.
              O may my heart's truth
                  Still be sung
      On this high hill in a year's turning.


      -- 
      "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                         --Miguel de Unamuno

      Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ 

       


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul 24 03:58:46 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:58:46 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] blog question
References: <000b01c58f84$77969720$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<114A2C89-3316-4362-A46B-51E79EB0E259@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00a101c59025$84dccde0$7c8f3052@ANNY>

Trust Michael Snider, he is a good WiZard, he also helped me out with mine. 
Thus thank you Michael again for all your time and good work,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.

From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:26 AM


>
> On Jul 23, 2005, at 8:45 , The Old Mole wrote:
>
>> Anyone here use Blogger? How do you set up a list of links to other 
>> blogs?
>>
>> Tad Richards
>> www.opus40.org
>> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> Under the Template tab in your dashboard, search for "sidebar," and  in 
> the place where you want your lblogrool to appear, insert code  soemthing 
> like what's below between the dashed lines (<!-- --> is a  comment)
>
> It's just an html unordered list of links.
>
> <!-- Begin #sidebar :: left column :: blog archives, links -->
>                 <div id="sidebar">
>
> --------
>                    <!--  My Edit -->
>                    <h2 class="My Blogroll">
>                      <ul>
>                        <li><a href="http://www.acoolblog.com">A Cool 
> Blog</a></li>
>                        <li><a href="http:// flakeblog.blogspot.com">Fake 
> Blogger</a></li>
>                         <!-- more blogs -->
>                    </ul>
>                    <!--  My Edit Ends -->
> ------------
> 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sun Jul 24 10:53:23 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:53:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy birthday to..?
Message-ID: <s2e3652c.063@mail.highland.edu>


Happy birthday, Anny! 

How come when I announced I was turning 35 on June 23, not a single
person on the list said happy birthday to ME? 

sadly,

Kent




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul 24 11:32:44 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:32:44 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy birthday to..?
References: <s2e3652c.063@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <000f01c59064$f051f700$ceaf3452@ANNY>


Hi Kent,

thank you.
There are no messages on June 23 by Kent Johnson, I went to the Archives. 
You are a naughty boy.

Anyhow, compliments for your Young Age. What a pity that I prefer 
middle-aged blonde men with that a dash of whitish hair, it gives me the 
idea of an experienced, wise, educated man, you know...

:-)
cheers, Anny

From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 4:53 PM


>
> Happy birthday, Anny!
>
> How come when I announced I was turning 35 on June 23, not a single
> person on the list said happy birthday to ME?
>
> sadly,
>
> Kent
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sun Jul 24 11:36:08 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:36:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy birthday to...?
Message-ID: <s2e36f2b.069@mail.highland.edu>

Anny said:

>Anyhow, compliments for your Young Age. What a pity that I prefer 
middle-aged blonde men with that a dash of whitish hair, it gives me
the 
idea of an experienced, wise, educated man, you know...

Anny, you just tell me what age you want me to be... 

Kent




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sun Jul 24 13:35:27 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:35:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's poem in the New Yorker
Message-ID: <s2e38b35.083@mail.highland.edu>

William Logan is a fun and clever essayist. I think he is a wonderful
polemicist, and we need more like him, as I said a few days ago. I
absolutely loved his skewering of Ashbery and Dean Young in the recent
New Criterion.

I don't know Logan's poetry all that well, but if this poem is
representative of his best (I gather he would have sent what he
considers to be his best work to the New Yorker) then he is certainly a
much better essayist than poet!

As with much "New Formalist" verse, I found myself laughing at the
unintended humor of it all--a truly ludricrous  shoehorning of hackneyed
content into plodding form. Or is it plodding form into hackneyed
content? 

I think the word is kitsch, frankly. 

But maybe Logan means this to be funny (I dont say that to be
sarcastic; I really find the poem so humorously horrible that I am open
to the possibility): A parody of earnestness, a kind of New-Formalist
Ron Padgett poem... The girlfriend is dead and so is the poetry.

Kent


From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Sun Jul 24 13:38:36 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:38:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's poem in the New Yorker
Message-ID: <f5.56036207.30152c1c@aol.com>

 
No, that's pretty much standard Logan. As I've said before, it's a shame he  
can't meet the standards he would hold up for so many others.
 
In a message dated 7/24/2005 1:36:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes:

William  Logan is a fun and clever essayist. I think he is a wonderful
polemicist,  and we need more like him, as I said a few days ago. I
absolutely loved his  skewering of Ashbery and Dean Young in the recent
New Criterion.

I  don't know Logan's poetry all that well, but if this poem is
representative  of his best (I gather he would have sent what he
considers to be his best  work to the New Yorker) then he is certainly a
much better essayist than  poet!

As with much "New Formalist" verse, I found myself laughing at  the
unintended humor of it all--a truly ludricrous  shoehorning of  hackneyed
content into plodding form. Or is it plodding form into  hackneyed
content? 

I think the word is kitsch, frankly. 

But  maybe Logan means this to be funny (I dont say that to be
sarcastic; I  really find the poem so humorously horrible that I am open
to the  possibility): A parody of earnestness, a kind of New-Formalist
Ron Padgett  poem... The girlfriend is dead and so is the  poetry.

Kent




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From editor at newhampshirereview.com  Sun Jul 24 14:07:07 2005
From: editor at newhampshirereview.com (Editor, New Hampshire Review)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:07:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Hampshire Review, Issue No. 1
Message-ID: <000101c5907a$82977120$6501a8c0@piiie500>

It is our great pleasure to announce the inaugural issue of The New
Hampshire Review <http://www.newhampshirereview.com/> , featuring:
 
New poems by Cynthia Huntington, C. Dale Young, Dan Beachy-Quick,
Timothy Liu, Peter Campion, Jon Davis, Jonathan Fink, Steve Mueske,
Naomi Feigelson Chase, Philip Fried, John Pursley III, Ravi Shankar,
David Biespiel, Lesle Lewis, Clay Matthews, Robert Phillips, and many
more...
 
Reviews of Jack Gilbert?s Refusing Heaven, Richard Siken?s Crush, Simon
Armitage?s Shout, Lydia Greenlaw?s Minsk, A.R. Ammons?s Bosh and
Flapdoodle, and others...
 
Artwork by Layne Jackson and Eric Armusik.
 
Plus: easily accessible audio versions of more than half the poems in
the issue!
 
Like PBS, The New Hampshire Review does not charge a fee or carry
advertising. Rather, we have established a reader-supported Contributors
<http://www.newhampshirereview.com/contributors_fund.htm>  Fund through
which we hope to provide our each of our poets, reviewers, and visual
artists with a small honorarium.  If you like the work in this issue,
please consider making a donation to the fund. All donations will go
directly to our contributors at the end of the quarter. 
 
Lastly, we are now accepting submissions for our second issue, due out
in October. Please see our submission
<http://www.newhampshirereview.com/submission_guidelines.htm>
guidelines for details.
 
 
Virginia Heatter
Editor-in-Chief
 
Seth D. Abramson
Poetry Editor
 
The New Hampshire Review
P.O. Box 322
Nashua, NH 03061-0322
www.newhampshirereview.com <http://www.newhampshirereview.com/> 
 
 
 
 
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From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Sun Jul 24 14:20:13 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:20:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthdaze
Message-ID: <200507241820.j6OIKPh8011521@mail7.atl.registeredsite.com>

.

Happy Birthday to you, Anny.  

I am indeed "an experienced, wise, educated man," but only when it comes 
to houseplants.  

And a belated Happy Birthday to you, Kent.  And congratulations on your 
new Effing Press book!  


Gregory 


. 



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 15:46:18 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:46:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's poem in the New Yorker
In-Reply-To: <s2e38b35.083@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2e38b35.083@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a050724124652cb9d65@mail.gmail.com>

What makes using form in a poem "New Formalist?"
 I don't mean to be snarky, but are you implying that anyone who uses form 
falls under this broad, meaningless moniker?
 By the way, I read Logan's *Night Battles* and found it completely 
horrible--unreadable even. It's academic poetry in the worst sense: 
self-styled and obscure, filled with nonsense allusions to things that the 
speaker/poet may or may not have read. He has a Florida poem in that book 
that's absolutely god-awful. After reading his essay on Florida poets that 
was on Poetry Daily a while back, I wonder what part of Florida that Logan's 
visited. I know he teaches at UF--perhaps that's where he spends all of his 
time.
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/24/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote: 
> 
> William Logan is a fun and clever essayist. I think he is a wonderful
> polemicist, and we need more like him, as I said a few days ago. I
> absolutely loved his skewering of Ashbery and Dean Young in the recent
> New Criterion.
> 
> I don't know Logan's poetry all that well, but if this poem is
> representative of his best (I gather he would have sent what he
> considers to be his best work to the New Yorker) then he is certainly a
> much better essayist than poet!
> 
> As with much "New Formalist" verse, I found myself laughing at the
> unintended humor of it all--a truly ludricrous shoehorning of hackneyed
> content into plodding form. Or is it plodding form into hackneyed
> content?
> 
> I think the word is kitsch, frankly.
> 
> But maybe Logan means this to be funny (I dont say that to be
> sarcastic; I really find the poem so humorously horrible that I am open
> to the possibility): A parody of earnestness, a kind of New-Formalist
> Ron Padgett poem... The girlfriend is dead and so is the poetry.
> 
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 16:08:04 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:08:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot, Toot
Message-ID: <731bb17a0507241308160b5725@mail.gmail.com>

You can find my feature on the poet Tom Hunley int he new edition of *
storySouth* (available at http://www.storysouth.com). The edition also has a 
wonderful interview with Charles Wright.
 Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sun Jul 24 19:28:05 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:28:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's poem in the New Yorker
Message-ID: <s2e3ddca.009@mail.highland.edu>

Jeff,

I've said here before that I've nothing against form. To the contrary.
I worship all kinds of poets who write in 
different kinds of meter. The poetry books I read the most are the two
fat Nortons up to the 19th century. I love all that stuff. Three of my
very favorite poets are Shakespeare (aka Edward DeVere, as is
increasingly suspected), Dickinson, Donne (though its his Meditations
for me that are the apex and have recently moved me toward a renewed
engagement with Christianity, very tentative and fumbling as it is), and
Dickinson. And then I like reading Yeats and Frost and Auden, too, even
Robert Francis, who I think is kind of quirky and fun. And *unlike* some
more learned spokespeople for the post-avant, like Kasey Silem Mohammad
(an absolutely brilliant fellow, by the way), I think it's crucial that
poets have a background in the study of prosody. Most today don't,
obviously.

I guess I use the term "New Formalism" more loosely than others, maybe
more loosely than I should. These formation-terms have their own lives:
like "Language poetry," which in many ways has ceased to have any
usefulness beyond evoking a sense of nostalgia for some. Language
Poetry, New Formalism: Those terms now have lots of peripheral rings
moving around them, and sometimes in contrary directions.

I suppose I use the phrase New Formalism in talking about poets I
understand to be in the orbit of a self-conciously aggressive, even
militant, grouping that began to loudly polemicize ca. 80's for a return
to traditional meters because American poetry had suffered, since the
demise of the New Criticism, something like a rapidly deteriorating case
of Mad Cow disease. Much like the old Langpos, the NF's (whose flip side
of a more and more antique buffalo nickel they are) hold that particular
formal predispositions and proceedings hold greater value than others,
contingency be damned. They are cadres in a cause, in the main, whose
poetics depend and thrive on a kind of binary, ideological rutting. For
a few extremists, a couple or more of whom are on this list (and don't
get me wrong, extremists are sometimes brilliant folks!), Poetry IS
metered verse, and that's all there is to it, for anything that is "not"
metered verse--or else "not" evident of syllabic or quantitative
measure--is just "prose" (though where the horizon of that "not" IS they
will never be able to say, of course, and this renders their whole
prosodic ontology something of a vaporous, sectarian religion marked by
angry sermonizing...which can nevertheless be, as passionate sermonizing
was for Dickinson back when, utterly enthralling and entertaining).

Anyway, I think it is certainly safe to place Logan in this militant
camp, so I call him a New Formalist. I call Paul Lake, who is on this
list, a New Formalist, too. I would call Marcus Bales a Wahabbist
Formalist. I have great admiration for their sermonizing. It is
exciting, captivating, thought-provoking, funny as fuck, sometimes, and
its little polemical motors at full-throttle opens the clogged and
self-satiisfied , sends numbskull liberal free-versers and black-clad
true-believing avantists scattering in the plaza of poetry. And this is
a good thing, even if the god of the preachers is really a golden calf 


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sun Jul 24 19:32:41 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:32:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] oops! William Logan, etc.
Message-ID: <s2e3deda.010@mail.highland.edu>

I just accidentally sent off a post to the list that I was still in the
process of going over for snafus of spelling, punctuation and the like.
I was also going to probably take out a couple of sentences. I hadn't
eve signed my name yet! Oh well. It is what it is now. That's life!

Kent


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sun Jul 24 19:47:07 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:47:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
Message-ID: <s2e3e243.012@mail.highland.edu>

Jeff,

I've said here before that I've nothing against form. To the contrary.
I worship all kinds of poets who write in 
different kinds of meter. The poetry books I read the most are the two
fat Nortons up to the 19th century. I love all that stuff. Three of my
very favorite poets are Shakespeare (aka Edward DeVere, as is
increasingly suspected), Dickinson, Donne (though it's his Meditations
for me that are the apex and have recently moved me toward a renewed
engagement with Christianity, very tentative and fumbling as it is), and
Dickinson. And then I like reading Yeats and Frost and Auden, too, even
Robert Francis, who I think is kind of quirky and fun. And *unlike* some
more learned spokespeople for the post-avant, like Kasey Silem Mohammad
(an absolutely brilliant fellow, by the way), I think it's crucial that
poets have a background in the study of prosody. Most today don't,
obviously.

I guess I use the term "New Formalism" more loosely than others, maybe
more loosely than I should. These formation-terms have their own lives:
like "Language poetry," which in many ways has ceased to have any
usefulness beyond evoking a sense of nostalgia for some. Language
Poetry, New Formalism: Those terms now have lots of peripheral rings
moving around them, and sometimes in contrary directions.

I suppose I use the phrase New Formalism in talking about poets I
understand to be in the close orbit of a self-conciously aggressive,
even militant, grouping that began to loudly polemicize ca. 80's for a
return to traditional meters because American poetry had suffered, since
the demise of the New Criticism, something like a rapidly deteriorating
case of Mad Cow disease. Much like the old Langpos, the NF's (whose flip
side of a more and more antique buffalo nickel they are) hold that
particular formal predispositions and proceedings hold greater value
than others, contingency be damned. They are cadres in a cause, in the
main, whose poetics depend and thrive on a kind of binary, ideological
rutting. For a few extremists, a couple or more of whom are on this list
(and don't get me wrong, extremists are sometimes brilliant folks!),
Poetry IS metered verse, and that's all there is to it, for anything
that is "not" metered verse--or else "not" evident of syllabic or
quantitative measure--is just "prose" (though where the horizon of that
"not" IS they will never be able to say, of course, and this renders
their whole prosodic ontology something of a vaporous, sectarian
religion marked by angry sermonizing...which can nevertheless be, as
passionate sermonizing was for Dickinson back when, utterly enthralling
and entertaining).

Anyway, I think it is certainly safe to place Logan in this militant
camp, so I call him a New Formalist. I call Paul Lake, who is on this
list, a New Formalist, too. I would call Marcus Bales a Wahhabist
Formalist. I have great admiration for their sermonizing. It is
exciting, captivating, thought-provoking, funny as fuck, sometimes, and
its little polemical motors at full-throttle open the clogged and
self-satiisfied promenades, send numbskull liberal free-versers and
black-clad true-believing avantists scattering in the plaza of poetry.
And this is a good thing, even if their Formalist religion is a bit hard
to take. Plus, some of their poetry is really very good.

Kent


From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 21:54:02 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:54:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
In-Reply-To: <s2e3e243.012@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2e3e243.012@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0507241854a09c79c@mail.gmail.com>

Kent,
 Thanks for the clarification.
 As I said in my previous post, I didn't intend to sound snarky (I keep 
using that damn word!). I've been wondering, however, about labels in 
general, and I wondered what your take on "New Formalism" is. I agree with 
you: it's problematic for one group to decide that form in and of itself 
somehow imbues a poem with life that it may or may not have had before. 
Also, I've been wrestling in my mind with Silliman's notion of the "School 
of Quietude." A good friend recently suggested that Silliman's poetics are 
somewhat facist; there's only one way to write, and it's not the "SoQ" way. 
I don't know that Silliman himself is that militant toward those who don't 
embrace the post-avant the way that he does.
 What does this all equal? Does a certain "stance" toward language or poetry 
necessarily make a poet a better writer? I doubt it. Certainly, many poems 
that come from the SoQ are bad--really bad. Also, many New Formalist poems 
are bad, as well. What I've noticed in the many different poetic camps out 
there is this: critics often take poets to task for the poets' aesthetic 
agendas rather than the poems themselves. I realize that it may be difficult 
to separate a poem from its aesthetics--if at all that's possible. Let me 
try to clarify: if I dismiss someone like Charles Olson simply because he 
represents a "kind of" poetry that I don't like, then I've been unethical 
and unfair in my criticism. However, if I seriously consider his verse and 
show where and how it lacks, then I've done my job. 
 I've gotten far away here from my original question. I suppose that what 
I'm trying to say is that aesthetic dogmatism is distasteful, in all of its 
various forms.
 Thanks, Kent.
 Jeff Newberry
(By the way, Happy Belated Birthday)

 On 7/24/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote: 
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I've said here before that I've nothing against form. To the contrary.
> I worship all kinds of poets who write in
> different kinds of meter. The poetry books I read the most are the two
> fat Nortons up to the 19th century. I love all that stuff. Three of my
> very favorite poets are Shakespeare (aka Edward DeVere, as is
> increasingly suspected), Dickinson, Donne (though it's his Meditations
> for me that are the apex and have recently moved me toward a renewed
> engagement with Christianity, very tentative and fumbling as it is), and
> Dickinson. And then I like reading Yeats and Frost and Auden, too, even
> Robert Francis, who I think is kind of quirky and fun. And *unlike* some
> more learned spokespeople for the post-avant, like Kasey Silem Mohammad
> (an absolutely brilliant fellow, by the way), I think it's crucial that
> poets have a background in the study of prosody. Most today don't,
> obviously.
> 
> I guess I use the term "New Formalism" more loosely than others, maybe
> more loosely than I should. These formation-terms have their own lives:
> like "Language poetry," which in many ways has ceased to have any
> usefulness beyond evoking a sense of nostalgia for some. Language
> Poetry, New Formalism: Those terms now have lots of peripheral rings
> moving around them, and sometimes in contrary directions.
> 
> I suppose I use the phrase New Formalism in talking about poets I
> understand to be in the close orbit of a self-conciously aggressive,
> even militant, grouping that began to loudly polemicize ca. 80's for a
> return to traditional meters because American poetry had suffered, since
> the demise of the New Criticism, something like a rapidly deteriorating
> case of Mad Cow disease. Much like the old Langpos, the NF's (whose flip
> side of a more and more antique buffalo nickel they are) hold that
> particular formal predispositions and proceedings hold greater value
> than others, contingency be damned. They are cadres in a cause, in the
> main, whose poetics depend and thrive on a kind of binary, ideological
> rutting. For a few extremists, a couple or more of whom are on this list
> (and don't get me wrong, extremists are sometimes brilliant folks!),
> Poetry IS metered verse, and that's all there is to it, for anything
> that is "not" metered verse--or else "not" evident of syllabic or
> quantitative measure--is just "prose" (though where the horizon of that
> "not" IS they will never be able to say, of course, and this renders
> their whole prosodic ontology something of a vaporous, sectarian
> religion marked by angry sermonizing...which can nevertheless be, as
> passionate sermonizing was for Dickinson back when, utterly enthralling
> and entertaining).
> 
> Anyway, I think it is certainly safe to place Logan in this militant
> camp, so I call him a New Formalist. I call Paul Lake, who is on this
> list, a New Formalist, too. I would call Marcus Bales a Wahhabist
> Formalist. I have great admiration for their sermonizing. It is
> exciting, captivating, thought-provoking, funny as fuck, sometimes, and
> its little polemical motors at full-throttle open the clogged and
> self-satiisfied promenades, send numbskull liberal free-versers and
> black-clad true-believing avantists scattering in the plaza of poetry.
> And this is a good thing, even if their Formalist religion is a bit hard
> to take. Plus, some of their poetry is really very good.
> 
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat Jul 23 15:30:04 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:30:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 28
In-Reply-To: <OFEC83CB4F.6FCFCE13-ON85257044.004699DF-85257044.00475755@neu.edu>
References: <OFEC83CB4F.6FCFCE13-ON85257044.004699DF-85257044.00475755@neu.edu>
Message-ID: <1122147004.28279.70.camel@malatesta>

On Wed, 2005-07-20 at 08:59 -0400, d.kellogg at neu.edu wrote:
> 
> Paul, I wasn't actually thinking of your essays, which are more
> sophisticated and elaborated, if still (in my view) wrong in
> significant ways (for example, in the ways they connect science &
> poetics).  But I never got around to explaining my reasons way back
> when, so I'll drop it.  I was rather thinking of the way Olson's
> reference to the typewriter (and also Williams's notion of the
> variable foot) kept emerging as chestnuts of abuse in early NF
> criticism.  As I recall, the first edition of Expansive Poetry (which
> contained its own strange pseudoscientific essay, by Turner & P?ppel)
> repeatedly raised those moments merely to mock them, as though that
> were all there was to the poetics of both writers.  (I think you had
> an essay there too, right -- but I don't think it did that.  If I
> recall, your had something to do with the middle class.  But it's been
> ages, so my memory may be off.)   

Interesting reminder, out of the blue, of that very strange essay in
_Expansive Poetry_.  Did they remove it form later editions?  I didn't
realize mine was a first ed.  Anyway, I recall reading a few of the
passages that struck me as the crux of their arguments a few times over,
and not being able to penetrate the fog.

Just what *were* they on about, anyway?

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 25 00:23:44 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:23:44 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
Message-ID: <200507250300.j6P30WSu243302@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

Jeff---enjoying your thoughts on this, as well as Kent's. Mostly I agree, 
yet I also want to raise some provocations (in part BECAUSE I'm not sure
where I "stand on this" point, at least in any "once and for all" way which
still, alas, serve as standards in many critics' (and, worse, even poets')
mind (that is to say part of the thing that bugs me about all these various
schools of critics is the adherence to a "once and for all" subjective,
aesthetic, judgement. it's like the "poetics" equivalent of BUSH accusing
Kerry of "flipflopping" and presenting himself as better for being
"unflinching" and "you know where I stand" etc---it's one thing that such an
attitude often prevails in poetry, but one of the reasons *I* got into
poetry was I hoped it wouldn't prevail as much here.

That being said, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading the various kinds
of polemics and "poetry criticism" and "poetics"---there's kind of an
"entertainment" value to it, even in letting myself get ANGRY about
it.....or in pointing out the discrepency between the brilliance of the
criticism and the way the critic's own poetry often doesn't "live up" to his
or her own standards, or may just do something quite different (not worse,
maybe even better) than their critical diagnoses and prescriptions....

Anyway, to your specific points I was going to "engage"--
1)You wrote---

Let me try to clarify:  if I dismiss someone like Charles Olson simply
because he represents a "kind of" poetry that I don't like, then I've been
unethical and unfair in my criticism.  However, if I seriously consider his
verse and show where and how it lacks, then I've done my job.

And I write, I see your point here, but I wonder if it's a little
extreme---Sometimes the sheer fact of mortality makes me question whether
our "JOB" (to use your term) as readers of poetry, or do you mean as "a
critic" (and if so what's the difference?) is really to "seriously consider"
someone's verse before we decide we're not going to devote, or "spend," much
of our (limited) time on it. Sure, that would be the responsible and ethical
route to go if you're going to write a serious essay on that writer. Yet, I
still believe many of us "dismiss" a lot of writers, and sometimes for very
arbitrary reasons, like "I've read enough of Olson to have decided I don't
really want to spend more time reading him"--that doesn't mean he's bad or
good, and maybe someone will convince you, or maybe they won't.
But it is a valid response, especially as there is such a GLUT of VERY good
and intense poetry, whether written by people living or dead, at our
fingertips, and perhaps "in a perfect world" we'd have time to read it all,
and also to digest it as being useful, uh, "equipment for living,"---but
even if our choices in reading or taste or commitment is somewhat arbitrary,
for me I find at this point in my life (early 40s) it's more important to
READ LESS POETRY than I did, and of course this goes against the consumerist
habits of our society at large (there's a great Barthes quote defending
REREADING on the ground that it's actually an anti-capitalist strategy), but
also against even what most poetry subcultures seem to be founded on---"READ
MORE; KEEP UP; YOU WANNA SEEM INFORMED
AND KNOWLEDGEABLE, RIGHT!"---and yeah I fell for that, or maybe it was much
more important for me on a very essential level between ages of 22 and
38....
Anyway, we may even totally AGREE on this point, but my point is that
LITERARY CRITICS would do well if they acknowledged that subjective aspect
to reading---for instance if WILLIAM LOGAN acknowledged that part of the
reason DEAN YOUNG or ASHBERY don't work for him is because he had already
chosen the primary stuff that was going to be of use for him long before,
and that those writers, for him, get in the way. Same with SILLIMAN
who is so in love with seeming ENCYCLOPEDIC and authoriative (if not
necessarily authoritarian?) or somehow exemplary as a "good citizen" of
poetry.....

So, when you write (2)

I don't know that Silliman himself is that militant toward those who don't
embrace the post-avant the way that he does.

        I say, I guess it depends how you define "militancy". In so far as I
"seriously consider" Silliman's poetry criticism on his blog, etc., I tend
to look at the things he says about writers he actually likes, or champions,
for clues about what it is he DOESN'T like. For instance, when he often
praises some "post-avant" writer for his or "ear" or for being "sublime" or
some such kudo, I think I learn more about why he excludes other writers
from being worthy of "serious consideration" than I do in any of his
generally VAGUER diatribues against a very ill-defined "school of quietude."
Well, just some thoughts---for what they're "worth"--

C


----------
From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
Date: Sun, Jul 24, 2005, 5:54 PM


Kent,

Thanks for the clarification.

As I said in my previous post, I didn't intend to sound snarky (I keep using
that damn word!).  I've been wondering, however, about labels in general,
and I wondered what your take on "New Formalism" is.  I agree with you:
it's problematic for one group to decide that form in and of itself somehow
imbues a poem with life that it may or may not have had before.  Also, I've
been wrestling in my mind with Silliman's notion of the "School of
Quietude."  A good friend recently suggested that Silliman's poetics are
somewhat facist; there's only one way to write, and it's not the "SoQ" way.
I don't know that Silliman himself is that militant toward those who don't
embrace the post-avant the way that he does.

What does this all equal?  Does a certain "stance" toward language or poetry
necessarily make a poet a better writer?  I doubt it.  Certainly, many poems
that come from the SoQ are bad--really bad.  Also, many New Formalist poems
are bad, as well.  What I've noticed in the many different poetic camps out
there is this:  critics often take poets to task for the poets' aesthetic
agendas rather than the poems themselves.  I realize that it may be
difficult to separate a poem from its aesthetics--if at all that's possible.
Let me try to clarify:  if I dismiss someone like Charles Olson simply
because he represents a "kind of" poetry that I don't like, then I've been
unethical and unfair in my criticism.  However, if I seriously consider his
verse and show where and how it lacks, then I've done my job.

I've gotten far away here from my original question.  I suppose that what
I'm trying to say is that aesthetic dogmatism is distasteful, in all of its
various forms.

Thanks, Kent.

Jeff Newberry
(By the way, Happy Belated Birthday)


On 7/24/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu
<mailto:Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> > wrote:
Jeff,

I've said here before that I've nothing against form. To the contrary.
I worship all kinds of poets who write in
different kinds of meter. The poetry books I read the most are the two
fat Nortons up to the 19th century. I love all that stuff. Three of my
very favorite poets are Shakespeare (aka Edward DeVere, as is
increasingly suspected), Dickinson, Donne (though it's his Meditations
for me that are the apex and have recently moved me toward a renewed
engagement with Christianity, very tentative and fumbling as it is), and
Dickinson. And then I like reading Yeats and Frost and Auden, too, even
Robert Francis, who I think is kind of quirky and fun. And *unlike* some
more learned spokespeople for the post-avant, like Kasey Silem Mohammad
(an absolutely brilliant fellow, by the way), I think it's crucial that
poets have a background in the study of prosody. Most today don't,
obviously.

I guess I use the term "New Formalism" more loosely than others, maybe
more loosely than I should. These formation-terms have their own lives:
like "Language poetry," which in many ways has ceased to have any
usefulness beyond evoking a sense of nostalgia for some. Language
Poetry, New Formalism: Those terms now have lots of peripheral rings
moving around them, and sometimes in contrary directions.

I suppose I use the phrase New Formalism in talking about poets I
understand to be in the close orbit of a self-conciously aggressive,
even militant, grouping that began to loudly polemicize ca. 80's for a
return to traditional meters because American poetry had suffered, since
the demise of the New Criticism, something like a rapidly deteriorating
case of Mad Cow disease. Much like the old Langpos, the NF's (whose flip
side of a more and more antique buffalo nickel they are) hold that
particular formal predispositions and proceedings hold greater value
than others, contingency be damned. They are cadres in a cause, in the
main, whose poetics depend and thrive on a kind of binary, ideological
rutting. For a few extremists, a couple or more of whom are on this list
(and don't get me wrong, extremists are sometimes brilliant folks!),
Poetry IS metered verse, and that's all there is to it, for anything
that is "not" metered verse--or else "not" evident of syllabic or
quantitative measure--is just "prose" (though where the horizon of that
"not" IS they will never be able to say, of course, and this renders
their whole prosodic ontology something of a vaporous, sectarian
religion marked by angry sermonizing...which can nevertheless be, as
passionate sermonizing was for Dickinson back when, utterly enthralling
and entertaining).

Anyway, I think it is certainly safe to place Logan in this militant
camp, so I call him a New Formalist. I call Paul Lake, who is on this
list, a New Formalist, too. I would call Marcus Bales a Wahhabist
Formalist. I have great admiration for their sermonizing. It is
exciting, captivating, thought-provoking, funny as fuck, sometimes, and
its little polemical motors at full-throttle open the clogged and
self-satiisfied promenades, send numbskull liberal free-versers and
black-clad true-believing avantists scattering in the plaza of poetry.
And this is a good thing, even if their Formalist religion is a bit hard
to take. Plus, some of their poetry is really very good.

Kent
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-------------- next part --------------
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 25 00:28:40 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
Message-ID: <200507250305.j6P35MUl306330@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

              Delete other one; I noticed one big typo that I fixed...
                C


Jeff---enjoying your thoughts on this, as well as Kent's. Mostly I agree,
yet I also want to raise some provocations (in part BECAUSE I'm not sure
where I "stand on this" point, at least in any "once and for all" way which
still, alas, serve as standards in many critics' (and, worse, even poets')
mind (that is to say part of the thing that bugs me about all these various
schools of critics is the adherence to a "once and for all" subjective,
aesthetic, judgement. it's like the "poetics" equivalent of BUSH accusing
Kerry of "flipflopping" and presenting himself as better for being
"unflinching" and "you know where I stand" etc---it's one thing that such an
attitude often prevails in politics, but one of the reasons *I* got into
poetry was I hoped it wouldn't prevail as much here.

That being said, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading the various kinds
of polemics and "poetry criticism" and "poetics"---there's kind of an
"entertainment" value to it, even in letting myself get ANGRY about
it.....or in pointing out the discrepency between the brilliance of the
criticism and the way the critic's own poetry often doesn't "live up" to his
or her own standards, or may just do something quite different (not worse,
maybe even better) than their critical diagnoses and prescriptions....

Anyway, to your specific points I was going to "engage"--
1)You wrote---

Let me try to clarify:  if I dismiss someone like Charles Olson simply
because he represents a "kind of" poetry that I don't like, then I've been
unethical and unfair in my criticism.  However, if I seriously consider his
verse and show where and how it lacks, then I've done my job.

And I write, I see your point here, but I wonder if it's a little
extreme---Sometimes the sheer fact of mortality makes me question whether
our "JOB" (to use your term) as readers of poetry, or do you mean as "a
critic" (and if so what's the difference?) is really to "seriously consider"
someone's verse before we decide we're not going to devote, or "spend," much
of our (limited) time on it. Sure, that would be the responsible and ethical
route to go if you're going to write a serious essay on that writer. Yet, I
still believe many of us "dismiss" a lot of writers, and sometimes for very
arbitrary reasons, like "I've read enough of Olson to have decided I don't
really want to spend more time reading him"--that doesn't mean he's bad or
good, and maybe someone will convince you, or maybe they won't.
But it is a valid response, especially as there is such a GLUT of VERY good
and intense poetry, whether written by people living or dead, at our
fingertips, and perhaps "in a perfect world" we'd have time to read it all,
and also to digest it as being useful, uh, "equipment for living,"---but
even if our choices in reading or taste or commitment is somewhat arbitrary,
for me I find at this point in my life (early 40s) it's more important to
READ LESS POETRY than I did, and of course this goes against the consumerist
habits of our society at large (there's a great Barthes quote defending
REREADING on the ground that it's actually an anti-capitalist strategy), but
also against even what most poetry subcultures seem to be founded on---"READ
MORE; KEEP UP; YOU WANNA SEEM INFORMED
AND KNOWLEDGEABLE, RIGHT!"---and yeah I fell for that, or maybe it was much
more important for me on a very essential level between ages of 22 and
38....
Anyway, we may even totally AGREE on this point, but my point is that
LITERARY CRITICS would do well if they acknowledged that subjective aspect
to reading---for instance if WILLIAM LOGAN acknowledged that part of the
reason DEAN YOUNG or ASHBERY don't work for him is because he had already
chosen the primary stuff that was going to be of use for him long before,
and that those writers, for him, get in the way. Same with SILLIMAN
who is so in love with seeming ENCYCLOPEDIC and authoriative (if not
necessarily authoritarian?) or somehow exemplary as a "good citizen" of
poetry.....

So, when you write (2)

I don't know that Silliman himself is that militant toward those who don't
embrace the post-avant the way that he does.

        I say, I guess it depends how you define "militancy". In so far as I
"seriously consider" Silliman's poetry criticism on his blog, etc., I tend
to look at the things he says about writers he actually likes, or champions,
for clues about what it is he DOESN'T like. For instance, when he often
praises some "post-avant" writer for his or "ear" or for being "sublime" or
some such kudo, I think I learn more about why he excludes other writers
from being worthy of "serious consideration" than I do in any of his
generally VAGUER diatribues against a very ill-defined "school of quietude."
Well, just some thoughts---for what they're "worth"--

C


----------
From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
Date: Sun, Jul 24, 2005, 5:54 PM


Kent,

Thanks for the clarification.

As I said in my previous post, I didn't intend to sound snarky (I keep using
that damn word!).  I've been wondering, however, about labels in general,
and I wondered what your take on "New Formalism" is.  I agree with you:
it's problematic for one group to decide that form in and of itself somehow
imbues a poem with life that it may or may not have had before.  Also, I've
been wrestling in my mind with Silliman's notion of the "School of
Quietude."  A good friend recently suggested that Silliman's poetics are
somewhat facist; there's only one way to write, and it's not the "SoQ" way.
I don't know that Silliman himself is that militant toward those who don't
embrace the post-avant the way that he does.

What does this all equal?  Does a certain "stance" toward language or poetry
necessarily make a poet a better writer?  I doubt it.  Certainly, many poems
that come from the SoQ are bad--really bad.  Also, many New Formalist poems
are bad, as well.  What I've noticed in the many different poetic camps out
there is this:  critics often take poets to task for the poets' aesthetic
agendas rather than the poems themselves.  I realize that it may be
difficult to separate a poem from its aesthetics--if at all that's possible.
Let me try to clarify:  if I dismiss someone like Charles Olson simply
because he represents a "kind of" poetry that I don't like, then I've been
unethical and unfair in my criticism.  However, if I seriously consider his
verse and show where and how it lacks, then I've done my job.

I've gotten far away here from my original question.  I suppose that what
I'm trying to say is that aesthetic dogmatism is distasteful, in all of its
various forms.

Thanks, Kent.

Jeff Newberry
(By the way, Happy Belated Birthday)


On 7/24/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu
<mailto:Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> > wrote:
Jeff,

I've said here before that I've nothing against form. To the contrary.
I worship all kinds of poets who write in
different kinds of meter. The poetry books I read the most are the two
fat Nortons up to the 19th century. I love all that stuff. Three of my
very favorite poets are Shakespeare (aka Edward DeVere, as is
increasingly suspected), Dickinson, Donne (though it's his Meditations
for me that are the apex and have recently moved me toward a renewed
engagement with Christianity, very tentative and fumbling as it is), and
Dickinson. And then I like reading Yeats and Frost and Auden, too, even
Robert Francis, who I think is kind of quirky and fun. And *unlike* some
more learned spokespeople for the post-avant, like Kasey Silem Mohammad
(an absolutely brilliant fellow, by the way), I think it's crucial that
poets have a background in the study of prosody. Most today don't,
obviously.

I guess I use the term "New Formalism" more loosely than others, maybe
more loosely than I should. These formation-terms have their own lives:
like "Language poetry," which in many ways has ceased to have any
usefulness beyond evoking a sense of nostalgia for some. Language
Poetry, New Formalism: Those terms now have lots of peripheral rings
moving around them, and sometimes in contrary directions.

I suppose I use the phrase New Formalism in talking about poets I
understand to be in the close orbit of a self-conciously aggressive,
even militant, grouping that began to loudly polemicize ca. 80's for a
return to traditional meters because American poetry had suffered, since
the demise of the New Criticism, something like a rapidly deteriorating
case of Mad Cow disease. Much like the old Langpos, the NF's (whose flip
side of a more and more antique buffalo nickel they are) hold that
particular formal predispositions and proceedings hold greater value
than others, contingency be damned. They are cadres in a cause, in the
main, whose poetics depend and thrive on a kind of binary, ideological
rutting. For a few extremists, a couple or more of whom are on this list
(and don't get me wrong, extremists are sometimes brilliant folks!),
Poetry IS metered verse, and that's all there is to it, for anything
that is "not" metered verse--or else "not" evident of syllabic or
quantitative measure--is just "prose" (though where the horizon of that
"not" IS they will never be able to say, of course, and this renders
their whole prosodic ontology something of a vaporous, sectarian
religion marked by angry sermonizing...which can nevertheless be, as
passionate sermonizing was for Dickinson back when, utterly enthralling
and entertaining).

Anyway, I think it is certainly safe to place Logan in this militant
camp, so I call him a New Formalist. I call Paul Lake, who is on this
list, a New Formalist, too. I would call Marcus Bales a Wahhabist
Formalist. I have great admiration for their sermonizing. It is
exciting, captivating, thought-provoking, funny as fuck, sometimes, and
its little polemical motors at full-throttle open the clogged and
self-satiisfied promenades, send numbskull liberal free-versers and
black-clad true-believing avantists scattering in the plaza of poetry.
And this is a good thing, even if their Formalist religion is a bit hard
to take. Plus, some of their poetry is really very good.

Kent
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Jul 24 23:18:23 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:18:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 28
Message-ID: <1f8.e5d7f81.3015b3ff@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/24/2005 9:47:48 PM Central Daylight Time, 
uche at ogbuji.net writes: 
> >Paul, I wasn't actually thinking of your essays, which are more
> >sophisticated and elaborated, if still (in my view) wrong in
> >significant ways (for example, in the ways they connect science &
> >poetics).  But I never got around to explaining my reasons way back
> >when, so I'll drop it.  I was rather thinking of the way Olson's
> >reference to the typewriter (and also Williams's notion of the
> >variable foot) kept emerging as chestnuts of abuse in early NF
> >criticism.  As I recall, the first edition of Expansive Poetry (which
> >contained its own strange pseudoscientific essay, by Turner &P?ppel)
> >repeatedly raised those moments merely to mock them, as though that
> >were all there was to the poetics of both writers.  (I think you had
> >an essay there too, right -- but I don't think it did that.  If I
> >recall, your had something to do with the middle class.  But it's been
> >ages, so my memory may be off.)   
> 
> Interesting reminder, out of the blue, of that very strange essay in
> _Expansive Poetry_.  Did they remove it form later editions?  I didn't
> realize mine was a first ed.  Anyway, I recall reading a few of the
> passages that struck me as the crux of their arguments a few times over,
> and not being able to penetrate the fog.
> 
> Just what *were* they on about, anyway?
> 
I retained the Turner/Poppel essay in New Expansive Poetry, but I did make it 
fairly clear in my introduction that I had lots of qualms about its 
methodology (reading metrical lines from different languages and timing them), which 
any statistics expert would find pretty slipshod and lacking in scientific 
control.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 25 07:19:13 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:19:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's poem in the New Yorker
References: <s2e3ddca.009@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <006301c5910a$b0003030$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Jeff,
> 
> I've said here before that I've nothing against form. To the contrary.
> I worship all kinds of poets who write in 
> different kinds of meter. The poetry books I read the most are the two
> fat Nortons up to the 19th century. I love all that stuff. Three of my
> very favorite poets are Shakespeare (aka Edward DeVere, as is
> increasingly suspected)

Only by people with severe cerebral dysfunctions, Kent.

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 25 07:22:50 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:22:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?
References: <731bb17a05072308421ec797de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007201c5910b$31f05930$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Isn't it wonderful how the world works?  This is my favorite birthday poem, too.

Bob G.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry 
  Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 11:42 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday To . . . ?


  Since I'm a ripe-old 31 years old today, I'm posting my favorite birthday poem.  I hope my "heart's truth is still sung" a year from now.

  Here's to 31 more, I hope.

  Yours, 

  Jeff Newberry



  Poem in October
  Dylan Thomas

  It was my thirtieth year to heaven
  Woke to my hearing from harbour and neighbour wood
      And the mussel pooled and the heron
              Priested shore
          The morning beckon
  With water praying and call of seagull and rook 
  And the knock of sailing boats on the net webbed wall
          Myself to set foot
              That second
  In the still sleeping town and set forth.

      My birthday began with the water-
  Birds and the birds of the winged trees flying my name 
      Above the farms and the white horses
              And I rose
          In rainy autumn
  And walked abroad in a shower of all my days.
  High tide and the heron dived when I took the road
          Over the border 
              And the gates
  Of the town closed as the town awoke.

      A springful of larks in a rolling
  Cloud and the roadside bushes brimming with whistling
      Blackbirds and the sun of October
              Summery 
          On the hill's shoulder,
  Here were fond climates and sweet singers suddenly
  Come in the morning where I wandered and listened
          To the rain wringing
              Wind blow cold
  In the wood faraway under me. 

      Pale rain over the dwindling harbour
  And over the sea wet church the size of a snail
      With its horns through mist and the castle
              Brown as owls
          But all the gardens
  Of spring and summer were blooming in the tall tales 
  Beyond the border and under the lark full cloud.
          There could I marvel
              My birthday
  Away but the weather turned around.

      It turned away from the blithe country
  And down the other air and the blue altered sky 
      Streamed again a wonder of summer
              With apples
          Pears and red currants
  And I saw in the turning so clearly a child's
  Forgotten mornings when he walked with his mother
          Through the parables 
              Of sun light
  And the legends of the green chapels

      And the twice told fields of infancy
  That his tears burned my cheeks and his heart moved in mine.
      These were the woods the river and sea 
              Where a boy
          In the listening
  Summertime of the dead whispered the truth of his joy
  To the trees and the stones and the fish in the tide.
          And the mystery
              Sang alive 
  Still in the water and singingbirds.

      And there could I marvel my birthday
  Away but the weather turned around. And the true
      Joy of the long dead child sang burning
              In the sun.
          It was my thirtieth 
  Year to heaven stood there then in the summer noon
  Though the town below lay leaved with October blood.
          O may my heart's truth
              Still be sung
  On this high hill in a year's turning.


  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ 

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From ttrigilio at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jul 25 08:07:02 2005
From: ttrigilio at sbcglobal.net (Tony Trigilio)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:07:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Archive, CAP-L listserv?
Message-ID: <42E4D5E6.30504@sbcglobal.net>

Hi all--

Does anyone know if there's an archive for the old CAP-L list?  At one 
time, archives were at <http://homepages.packet.net/schaeff/capl/>, but 
not anymore.  Thanks--

Best,
Tony



From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Jul 25 08:17:10 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:17:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0507241854a09c79c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <s2e3e243.012@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42E4A006.14373.3CF7C4D@localhost>

On 24 Jul 2005 at 21:54, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> ... it's problematic for one group to decide that form in and of itself 
> somehow imbues a poem with life that it may or may not have had before.<

This is not, however, the claim that I make, and I'm pretty sure it's not 
the claim that "New Formalists" make.

The claim that I make is that poetry is metered language; non-metered 
language is prose. There is no necessary "life" that is imbued by either 
label. You can make art in prose and in poetry. The question as I see it 
is why do prose artists want to label their work "poetry"? 

> Also, I've been wrestling in my mind with Silliman's notion of the "School 
> of Quietude." A good friend recently suggested that Silliman's poetics are 
> somewhat facist; there's only one way to write, and it's not the "SoQ" way. 

Well, that's one way to look at it, I suppose -- though not a useful one. 
Silliman, though I disagree with him at almost every point, is not, as I 
understand it, advocating that there is only one way to write at all. This 
is another straw man; it's not the claim Silliman is making, and it doesn't 
advance your view to propose straw men and knock them down.

> What I've noticed in the many different poetic camps out 
> there is this: critics often take poets to task for the poets' aesthetic 
> agendas rather than the poems themselves. I realize that it may be difficult 
> to separate a poem from its aesthetics--if at all that's possible. Let me 
> try to clarify: if I dismiss someone like Charles Olson simply because he 
> represents a "kind of" poetry that I don't like, then I've been unethical 
> and unfair in my criticism. However, if I seriously consider his verse and 
> show where and how it lacks, then I've done my job. <

It depends on what you're trying to do when you are writing to dismiss 
Olson (in this example). It may be a good rhetorical strategy in one kind 
of essay to address Olson's work generally as represntative of a certain 
kind of poetry, but in another kind of essay, consider his work in its own 
terms, and in yet another, talk about how it lacks. But in talking about 
how it lacks, you may hold it up to its own standards or to other 
standards. The variety of approaches proliferate; an unfair approach 
would be to claim to be evaluating Olson's work on Olson's standards 
while misrepresenting, or misunderstanding, those standards, for 
example.

>  I've gotten far away here from my original question. I suppose that what 
> I'm trying to say is that aesthetic dogmatism is distasteful, in all of its 
> various forms.

Distinguish "aesthetic dogmatism" from "aesthetic position" for me. 
Silliman, no less than Kent Johnson or you, for example, argues strongly 
for his position; I disagree with it, but I think it may be a mistake to claim 
that you, or Kent, or Ron are dogmatists.

Marcus






From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Jul 25 13:06:49 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:06:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
Message-ID: <s2e4d603.041@mail.highland.edu>

Marcus Bales said:

>Distinguish "aesthetic dogmatism" from "aesthetic position" for me. 
Silliman, no less than Kent Johnson or you, for example, argues
strongly 
for his position; I disagree with it, but I think it may be a mistake
to claim 
that you, or Kent, or Ron are dogmatists.


Marcus, thank you, but I honestly don't see how my "position" could in
any way even approach being a candidate for the quality of "dogmatic." I
am openly catholic in my tastes, and I have stated this numerous times,
in posts, essays, interviews, and the like. Ron Silliman has even called
me "wishy-washy," a "Third-Wayist," (a most interesting designation
given RS's decidedly "Third Way"politics). Often, I have stated my
catholicity in the context of critiquing what is a pronounced and by now
embarrassing dogmatism in "avant" circles. The book I announced the
other day, in fact, Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz, concludes with an
essay published at the start of the Iraq war, wherein I disassemble, if
I may say so, Bernstein and Silliman's holier-than-thou, irresponsible
sectarianism toward Poets Against the War. So I'm curious what you
apparently see as even close to "dogmatic" about my poetics?

I admire the conviction of your stance. And you proclaim it eloquently.
But that stance, that ONLY writing in meter achieves the nature of
Poetry, is, unambiguously, a dogmatic position. There is no way of
characterizing it as anyting else.

I want to ask you three questions, and I admit in advance to asking
them so as to clarify, for the record, some conclusions that must follow
from your extreme premise:

1) Is Leaves of Grass poetry or prose?

2) Is Cathay poetry or prose?

3) Is This in Which poetry or prose?


And Jeff, I think Chris's answers to the good questions you posed more
or less to me are excellent.

Kent





From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Jul 25 13:12:37 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:12:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
Message-ID: <s2e4d752.042@mail.highland.edu>

I said,

>Shakespeare (aka Edward DeVere, as is increasingly suspected)

And Bob Grumman said,

>Only by people with severe cerebral dysfunctions, Kent.


Bob, within the fascinating and rapidly changing world of Shakespeare
authorship studies, this kind of silly attitude is really going out of
fashion. 




From chris.lott at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 13:35:47 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:35:47 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's poem in the New Yorker
In-Reply-To: <f5.56036207.30152c1c@aol.com>
References: <f5.56036207.30152c1c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0507251035364a4833@mail.gmail.com>

>  it's a shame he
> can't meet the standards he would hold up for so many others. 

Why? Seriously. Is this necessary to being a good critic? Might it not
even be detrimental? Was Pauline Kael (or insert your favorite film
critic here) lesser because she wasn't a great director or
cinematographer?

Or is this just a blue-sky, "well it would be nice" kind of thing
since it is such a rare occurrence (or at least it is rare that good
artists expend a lot of energy in criticism).

c



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 13:37:41 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:37:41 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
In-Reply-To: <s2e4d603.041@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2e4d603.041@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05072510377ea71c14@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/25/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:
> Ron Silliman has even called
> me "wishy-washy," a "Third-Wayist,"

You're either a lucky man or you are living right. Maybe both :)

c



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 25 13:38:34 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:38:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
References: <s2e3e243.012@mail.highland.edu> <42E4A006.14373.3CF7C4D@localhost>
Message-ID: <013c01c5913f$af3f5e20$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> The claim that I make is that poetry is metered language; non-metered
> language is prose. There is no necessary "life" that is imbued by either
> label. You can make art in prose and in poetry. The question as I see it
> is why do prose artists want to label their work "poetry"?

Try this question, Marcus: why distinguish poetry from prose?  Why not call 
it all "writing?"  (Some do.  I would not.)

--Bob G.




From chris.lott at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 13:41:51 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:41:51 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0507241854a09c79c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <s2e3e243.012@mail.highland.edu>
	<731bb17a0507241854a09c79c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0507251041635547cc@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/24/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know that Silliman himself is that militant toward those who don't
> embrace the post-avant the way that he does. 

Define "militant" in this context? He is radically dismissive in ways
far greater (and perhaps more harmful) than your proposed scenario of
rejecting a Bernstein poem. I can't often tell what there is in a poem
that Silliman expounds upon in a positive way from one he expounds
upon negatively... but typically both will be from the same cadre of
post-avant, "greatest, most exquisite" writers with "the best ears,
the most nuanced grasp of poetics" evAHr.

c



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Jul 25 06:03:23 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:03:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Identity?
Message-ID: <BF0A231B.997D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>


A friend sent me the following lines and challenged me to name the poet. I
couldn't. Can anyone identify the poet and poem below (an excerpt, I think,
from a longer poem)?

Paul Lake



And that dread city of Cabool
 Set at the mountain's scarp?d feet
Whose marble tanks are ever full
 With water for the noonday heat:

Where through the narrow straight Bazaar
 A little maid Circassian
Is led, a present from the Czar
 Unto some old and bearded khan,?

Here have our wild war-eagles flown,
 And flapped wide wings in fiery flight;
But the sad dove, that sits alone
 In England?she hath no delight.

In vain the laughing girl will lean
 To greet her love with love-lit eyes
Down in some treacherous black ravine,
 Clutching his flag, the dead boy lies.

And many a moon and sun will see
 The lingering wistful children wait
To climb upon their father's knee;
 And in each house made desolate

Pale women who have lost their lord
 Will kiss the relics of the slain?
Some tarnished epaulette?some sword?
 Poor toys to soothe such anguished pain.

For not in quiet English fields
 Are these, our brothers, lain to rest,
Where we might deck their broken shields
 With all the flowers the dead love best.

For some are by the Delhi walls,
 And many in the Afghan land,
And many where the Ganges falls
 Through seven mouths of shifting sand.

And some in Russian waters lie,
 And others in the seas which are
The portals of the East, or by
 The wind-swept heights of Trafalgar.

O wandering graves!  O restless sleep!
 O silence of the sunless day!
O still ravine!  O stormy deep!
 Give up your prey!  Give up your prey!

And thou whose wounds are never healed,
 Whose weary race is never won,
O Cromwell's England! must thou yield
 For every inch of ground a son?

Go!  crown with thorns thy gold-crowned head,
 Change thy glad song to song of pain;
Wind and wild have have got thy dead,
 And will not yield them back again.




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Mon Jul 25 13:51:07 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:51:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Identity?
Message-ID: <e5.17e1b116.3016808b@aol.com>

 
It's a fragment of Oscar Wilde's "Ave Imperatrix." Here's the whole thing,  
according to Bartleby.com:
 
Ave Imperatrix



Set in this stormy Northern sea,
Queen of  these restless fields of tide,
England! what shall men say of thee,
Before  whose feet the worlds divide?

The earth, a brittle globe of  glass,
Lies in the hollow of thy hand,
And through its heart of crystal  pass,
Like shadows through a twilight land,

The spears of  crimson-suited war,
The long white-crested waves of fight,
And all the  deadly fires which are
The torches of the lords of Night.

The yellow  leopards, strained and lean,
The treacherous Russian knows so well,
With  gaping blackened jaws are seen
Leap through the hail of screaming  shell.

The strong sea-lion of England's wars
Hath left his sapphire  cave of sea,
To battle with the storm that mars
The stars of England's  chivalry.

The brazen-throated clarion blows
Across the Pathan's reedy  fen,
And the high steeps of Indian snows
Shake to the tread of armed  men.

And many an Afghan chief, who lies
Beneath his cool  pomegranate-trees,
Clutches his sword in fierce surmise
When on the  mountain-side he sees

The fleet-foot Marri scout, who comes
To tell  how he hath heard afar
The measured roll of English drums
Beat at the  gates of Kandahar.

For southern wind and east wind meet
Where, girt  and crowned by sword and fire,
England with bare and bloody feet
Climbs  the steep road of wide empire.

O lonely Himalayan height,
Grey pillar  of the Indian sky,
Where saw'st thou last in clanging flight
Our winged  dogs of Victory?

The almond-groves of Samarcand,
Bokhara, where red  lilies blow,
And Oxus, by whose yellow sand
The grave white-turbaned  merchants go:

And on from thence to Ispahan,
The gilded garden of the  sun,
Whence the long dusty caravan
Brings cedar wood and  vermilion;

And that dread city of Cabool
Set at the mountain's scarped  feet,
Whose marble tanks are ever full
With water for the noonday  heat:

Where through the narrow straight Bazaar
A little maid  Circassian
Is led, a present from the Czar
Unto some old and bearded Khan,  -

Here have our wild war-eagles flown,
And flapped wide wings in fiery  fight;
But the sad dove, that sits alone
In England - she hath no  delight.

In vain the laughing girl will lean
To greet her love with  love-lit eyes:
Down in some treacherous black ravine,
Clutching his flag,  the dead boy lies.

And many a moon and sun will see
The lingering  wistful children wait
To climb upon their father's knee;
And in each house  made desolate

Pale women who have lost their lord
Will kiss the relics  of the slain -
Some tarnished epaulette - some sword -
Poor toys to soothe  such anguished pain.

For not in quiet English fields
Are these, our  brothers, lain to rest,
Where we might deck their broken shields
With all  the flowers the dead love best.

For some are by the Delhi walls,
And  many in the Afghan land,
And many where the Ganges falls
Through seven  mouths of shifting sand.

And some in Russian waters lie,
And others in  the seas which are
The portals to the East, or by
The wind-swept heights  of Trafalgar.

O wandering graves! O restless sleep!
O silence of the  sunless day!
O still ravine! O stormy deep!
Give up your prey! Give up  your prey!

And thou whose wounds are never healed,
Whose weary race is  never won,
O Cromwell's England! must thou yield
For every inch of ground  a son?

Go! crown with thorns thy gold-crowned head,
Change thy glad  song to song of pain;
Wind and wild wave have got thy dead,
And will not  yield them back again.

Wave and wild wind and foreign shore
Possess  the flower of English land -
Lips that thy lips shall kiss no more,
Hands  that shall never clasp thy hand.

What profit now that we have  bound
The whole round world with nets of gold,
If hidden in our heart is  found
The care that groweth never old?

What profit that our galleys  ride,
Pine-forest-like, on every main?
Ruin and wreck are at our  side,
Grim warders of the House of Pain.

Where are the brave, the  strong, the fleet?
Where is our English chivalry?
Wild grasses are their  burial-sheet,
And sobbing waves their threnody.

O loved ones lying far  away,
What word of love can dead lips send!
O wasted dust! O senseless  clay!
Is this the end! is this the end!

Peace, peace! we wrong the  noble dead
To vex their solemn slumber so;
Though childless, and with  thorn-crowned head,
Up the steep road must England go,

Yet when this  fiery web is spun,
Her watchmen shall descry from far
The young Republic  like a sun
Rise from these crimson seas of war.





In a message dated 7/25/2005 1:48:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:

A friend  sent me the following lines and challenged me to name the poet. I
couldn't.  Can anyone identify the poet and poem below (an excerpt, I think,
from a  longer poem)?

Paul Lake



And that dread city of  Cabool
Set at the mountain's scarp?d feet
Whose marble tanks are ever  full
With water for the noonday heat:

Where through the narrow  straight Bazaar
A little maid Circassian
Is led, a present from the  Czar
Unto some old and bearded khan,?

Here have our wild war-eagles  flown,
And flapped wide wings in fiery flight;
But the sad dove, that  sits alone
In England?she hath no delight.

In vain the laughing girl  will lean
To greet her love with love-lit eyes
Down in some treacherous  black ravine,
Clutching his flag, the dead boy lies.

And many a moon  and sun will see
The lingering wistful children wait
To climb upon their  father's knee;
And in each house made desolate

Pale women who have  lost their lord
Will kiss the relics of the slain?
Some tarnished  epaulette?some sword?
Poor toys to soothe such anguished pain.

For  not in quiet English fields
Are these, our brothers, lain to rest,
Where  we might deck their broken shields
With all the flowers the dead love  best.

For some are by the Delhi walls,
And many in the Afghan  land,
And many where the Ganges falls
Through seven mouths of shifting  sand.

And some in Russian waters lie,
And others in the seas which  are
The portals of the East, or by
The wind-swept heights of  Trafalgar.

O wandering graves!  O restless sleep!
O silence of  the sunless day!
O still ravine!  O stormy deep!
Give up your  prey!  Give up your prey!

And thou whose wounds are never  healed,
Whose weary race is never won,
O Cromwell's England! must thou  yield
For every inch of ground a son?

Go!  crown with thorns  thy gold-crowned head,
Change thy glad song to song of pain;
Wind and  wild have have got thy dead,
And will not yield them back  again.


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry  mailing  list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




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From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 25 13:55:00 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:55:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Identity?
In-Reply-To: <BF0A231B.997D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BF0A231B.997D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <8c05c14d3f9a4a539473399b64536b9a@earthlink.net>

Oscar Wilde.

On Jul 25, 2005, at 6:03 AM, Paul Lake wrote:

> And that dread city of Cabool
>  Set at the mountain's scarp?d feet
> Whose marble tanks are ever full
>  With water for the noonday heat:

Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 14:08:14 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:08:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0507251041635547cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <s2e3e243.012@mail.highland.edu>
	<731bb17a0507241854a09c79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9b1b9dab0507251041635547cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05072511085beb0ef8@mail.gmail.com>

I guess I mean dismissive. Did I mention Bernstein?
 I've seen a couple of posts of Silliman's where he shows an SoQ poem that 
he actually likes. I do think that he's dismissive of the value of other 
types of writing, aside from what he does.
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/25/05, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> On 7/24/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I don't know that Silliman himself is that militant toward those who 
> don't
> > embrace the post-avant the way that he does.
> 
> Define "militant" in this context? He is radically dismissive in ways
> far greater (and perhaps more harmful) than your proposed scenario of
> rejecting a Bernstein poem. I can't often tell what there is in a poem
> that Silliman expounds upon in a positive way from one he expounds
> upon negatively... but typically both will be from the same cadre of
> post-avant, "greatest, most exquisite" writers with "the best ears,
> the most nuanced grasp of poetics" evAHr.
> 
> c
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 25 14:39:20 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:39:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
References: <s2e4d752.042@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <015201c59148$2c4d6670$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>I said,
>
>>Shakespeare (aka Edward DeVere, as is increasingly suspected)
>
> And Bob Grumman said,
>
>>Only by people with severe cerebral dysfunctions, Kent.
>
> Bob, within the fascinating and rapidly changing world of Shakespeare
> authorship studies, this kind of silly attitude is really going out of
> fashion.

Just what new evidence has turned up for the Earl of Oxford in this 
"fascinating and rapidly changing world of Shakespeare authorship studies," 
Kent?  I admit that the attribution of cerebral dysfunctionality to people 
who believe in things which all the material evidence contradicts is not in 
fashion, but being right has always appealed more to me than being in 
fashion.  I do retract "severe" from my description of the wacks who think 
Oxford wrote the works of Shakespeare, however.  To be so poor at reasoning 
as they are would seem a severe handicap to me, but I realize that inability 
to reason doesn't bother most people, and doesn't even interfere that much 
in their lives.

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul 25 14:49:07 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:49:07 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Identity?
References: <BF0A231B.997D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
	<8c05c14d3f9a4a539473399b64536b9a@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <008101c59149$89c0c800$b32bb750@ANNY>

As usual I am out of context, but I was looking for a quick copy and paste of a short story by Wilde for my students, and I read the following:

Madonna mia

A LILY-GIRL, not made for this world's pain,
With brown, soft hair close braided by her ears,
And longing eyes half veiled by slumberous tears
Like bluest water seen through mists of rain:
Pale cheeks whereon no love hath left its stain,
Red underlip drawn in for fear of love,
And white throat, whiter than the silvered dove,
Through whose wan marble creeps one purple vein.
Yet, though my lips shall praise her without cease,
Even to kiss her feet I am not bold,
Being o'ershadowed by the wings of awe.
Like Dante, when he stood with Beatrice
Beneath the flaming Lion's breast, and saw
The seventh Crystal, and the Stair of Gold.


taken from this site:
http://www.online-literature.com/wilde/867/


Take care you all, Anny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet's Identity?


> Oscar Wilde.
> 
> On Jul 25, 2005, at 6:03 AM, Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>> And that dread city of Cabool
>>  Set at the mountain's scarp?d feet
>> Whose marble tanks are ever full
>>  With water for the noonday heat:
> 
> Hal   Serving the tristate area.
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Mon Jul 25 15:26:39 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:26:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B3B@mail.emerson.edu>



Interesting reminder, out of the blue, of that very strange essay in
_Expansive Poetry_.  Did they remove it form later editions?  I didn't
realize mine was a first ed.  Anyway, I recall reading a few of the
passages that struck me as the crux of their arguments a few times over,
and not being able to penetrate the fog.

Just what *were* they on about, anyway?



...as I remember it, Paul Lake's essay (and i don't have 
access to the book, so please forgive me if i'm 
remembering or attributing this wrongly ) tried to 
scientifically prove that meter and rhyme 
are more "natural" than free verse . . . (maybe it was
a kind of New Age attempt to promote meter-rhyme 
as being *healthy* for us.....)

which made me wonder what Baudelaire would have 
thought of such a theory...
surely for the Symbolist, meter and rhyme are 
preferable only BECAUSE they're unnatural, because 
they're perverse. . .  
for Baudelaire and the Symbolists, "artifice was superior to 
nature" ( Michael Hamburger, 'The Truth of Poetry', p.268)....
it's the artificiality of meter rhyme and other formal
devices that appeals to the antithetical soul, no?

...knotthead

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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 25 17:01:45 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:01:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
Message-ID: <200507251938.j6PJcQpN434986@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

Thanks Bob---I've found none of the Earl of Ox arguments at all convincing,
and many of them have an either explicit or implicit CLASS-BIAS.
I'm open to the possibility that it wasn't the biographical William
Shakespeare who wrote all the plays, but the Oxfordians have no convinced.
Wanna give us your best argument in favor of him, Kent?

C

----------
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] WS
>Date: Mon, Jul 25, 2005, 10:39 AM
>

>>I said,
>>
>>>Shakespeare (aka Edward DeVere, as is increasingly suspected)
>>
>> And Bob Grumman said,
>>
>>>Only by people with severe cerebral dysfunctions, Kent.
>>
>> Bob, within the fascinating and rapidly changing world of Shakespeare
>> authorship studies, this kind of silly attitude is really going out of
>> fashion.
>
> Just what new evidence has turned up for the Earl of Oxford in this
> "fascinating and rapidly changing world of Shakespeare authorship studies,"
> Kent?  I admit that the attribution of cerebral dysfunctionality to people
> who believe in things which all the material evidence contradicts is not in
> fashion, but being right has always appealed more to me than being in
> fashion.  I do retract "severe" from my description of the wacks who think
> Oxford wrote the works of Shakespeare, however.  To be so poor at reasoning
> as they are would seem a severe handicap to me, but I realize that inability
> to reason doesn't bother most people, and doesn't even interfere that much
> in their lives.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul 25 15:55:50 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:55:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B3B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <011201c59152$dbf10a00$b32bb750@ANNY>

Yes, this is right, re.: Beaudelaire, but it should be seen within the 
context. And besides this I think that French rhymes more naturally than 
English, let's leave out Italian, it is all a sing-song rhyme even when you 
ask _How much?_

Anny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 9:26 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37




Interesting reminder, out of the blue, of that very strange essay in
_Expansive Poetry_.  Did they remove it form later editions?  I didn't
realize mine was a first ed.  Anyway, I recall reading a few of the
passages that struck me as the crux of their arguments a few times over,
and not being able to penetrate the fog.

Just what *were* they on about, anyway?



...as I remember it, Paul Lake's essay (and i don't have
access to the book, so please forgive me if i'm
remembering or attributing this wrongly ) tried to
scientifically prove that meter and rhyme
are more "natural" than free verse . . . (maybe it was
a kind of New Age attempt to promote meter-rhyme
as being *healthy* for us.....)

which made me wonder what Baudelaire would have
thought of such a theory...
surely for the Symbolist, meter and rhyme are
preferable only BECAUSE they're unnatural, because
they're perverse. . .
for Baudelaire and the Symbolists, "artifice was superior to
nature" ( Michael Hamburger, 'The Truth of Poetry', p.268)....
it's the artificiality of meter rhyme and other formal
devices that appeals to the antithetical soul, no?

...knotthead




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul 25 16:10:11 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:10:11 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem Machines
Message-ID: <012701c59154$dd2a6270$b32bb750@ANNY>

Quoting:

I'd like to know how other folks work their poems, or get worked by the work. Send your writing method, preparations, time of day, post-writing exercises or anything else you'd like to share to thephillysound at hotmail.com & I'll post it here as they come in.

Frank Sherlock


I was sent by BrTom http://www.brtom.org/tjblog.html
to PhillySound, check it out:
http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_phillysound_archive.html#112155272704313693



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul 25 16:25:06 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:25:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem Machines
References: <012701c59154$dd2a6270$b32bb750@ANNY>
Message-ID: <013601c59156$f2675380$b32bb750@ANNY>

Sorry this should/might be the correct direct link:
http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_phillysound_archive.html#112187123714890104

otherwise: PhillySound and you scroll down to Poem Machines
http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_phillysound_archive.html#112155272704313693

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 10:10 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem Machines


  Quoting:

  I'd like to know how other folks work their poems, or get worked by the work. Send your writing method, preparations, time of day, post-writing exercises or anything else you'd like to share to thephillysound at hotmail.com & I'll post it here as they come in.

  Frank Sherlock


  I was sent by BrTom http://www.brtom.org/tjblog.html
  to PhillySound, check it out:
  http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_phillysound_archive.html#112155272704313693



  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Jul 25 16:30:52 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:30:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] OK, here, I finished my post on New Formalism
In-Reply-To: <s2e4d603.041@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42E513BC.3898.36385F@localhost>

On 25 Jul 2005 at 12:06, Kent Johnson wrote:
> Marcus, thank you, but I honestly don't see how my "position" could in
> any way even approach being a candidate for the quality of "dogmatic."<

That's what I said. 

> I admire the conviction of your stance. And you proclaim it eloquently.
> But that stance, that ONLY writing in meter achieves the nature of
> Poetry, is, unambiguously, a dogmatic position. There is no way of
> characterizing it as anyting else.

You capitalize "Poetry" here -- I infer from that that you are using it as a 
term of praise: that for you "Poetry" with a capital P (and that rhymes 
with T and that stands for Trouble. Mothers of River City ...) is some sort 
of essential thing, the good stuff that is winnowed out of the vast amount 
of stuff that isn't Poetry.

I don't hold that view. I think poetry is just a type of writing: metered 
language. You can have good and bad poetry, you can have art and 
non-art in poetry, just as you can have good and bad prose, or art and 
non-art in prose. I don't distinguish "Poetry with a Capital P" from "prose 
with a small p" in order to raise one up or cast one down. I infer from 
your use of the term that you do -- that for all your vaunted catholicity of 
taste, that you see Poetry as something fine and good made some 
magical way out of the teeming mass of that which is neither.

I've got to go; I'll address your three questions later.

Marcus




From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jul 25 16:34:36 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:34:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
Message-ID: <30.773473a7.3016a6dc@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/25/2005 3:38:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:
Thanks Bob---I've found none of the Earl of Ox arguments at all convincing,
and many of them have an either explicit or implicit CLASS-BIAS.
I'm open to the possibility that it wasn't the biographical William
Shakespeare who wrote all the plays, but the Oxfordians have no convinced.
Wanna give us your best argument in favor of him, Kent
There is something slightly akin to UFO reports in these 'real Shakespeare 
unmasked' theories. A grainy photo and odd lights 
in night sky aren't going to cut it. 

Is Francis Bacon still in the hunt? Or has he definitely been 
ruled out.
Finnegan
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From tad at opus40.org  Mon Jul 25 17:19:35 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:19:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's poem in the New Yorker
References: <f5.56036207.30152c1c@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0507251035364a4833@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c5915e$91e0f680$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I agree. Judge his poetry as poetry, and his criticism as criticism. 
Coleridge was great at both, but his being great at one didn't make him 
great at the other.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Lott" <chris.lott at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] William Logan's poem in the New Yorker


>>  it's a shame he
>> can't meet the standards he would hold up for so many others.
>
> Why? Seriously. Is this necessary to being a good critic? Might it not
> even be detrimental? Was Pauline Kael (or insert your favorite film
> critic here) lesser because she wasn't a great director or
> cinematographer?
>
> Or is this just a blue-sky, "well it would be nice" kind of thing
> since it is such a rare occurrence (or at least it is rare that good
> artists expend a lot of energy in criticism).
>
> c
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Jul 25 17:28:19 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:28:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
Message-ID: <s2e51330.049@mail.highland.edu>

Bob,

The issue is that the evidence does not support the orthodox,
Stratfordian claim. There is just too much that does not add up, and too
much that should be there that is inexplicably missing-- like a shred of
evidence that anyone cared when the mean-spirited and litigious grain
merchant from Stratford died (after leaving behind a crass and fairly
illiterate will). There are testimonials upon the deaths of all the
leading and middle authors of the day, even testimonials to minor
writers. The logical explanation for this black hole of silence is that
there was general knowledge in English literary society that WS was the
stand-in for the real author of the works, who, following the
conventions of his social class, and because of the sensitive relation
between politics and the theatre, chose to not take public attribution
for the works.

Yes, growing numbers of studies point in the direction of WS as an
Elizabethan Batillus or Terence, i.e. someone who fronted for the actual
author. One of these is by Diana Price, author of _Shakespeare's
Unorthodox Biography: New Evidence of an Authorship Problem_. She has a
substantial article in the Vol. 11, No. 3, 2005 issue of Skeptic
Magazine, where she summarizes some of the problems Stratfordians face,
once they get beyond snitty, defensive ad hominems. Indeed, there is a
considerable amount of recent scholarship, which you may choose to
ignore and dismiss with derision, but which will still be there once you
stop sputtering away. (Joseph Sobran's book, Alias Shakespeare, is a
good place to start.)

Did you know that the Director of the Royal Shakespeare Company is an
anti-Stratfordian? He's a guy who knows a bit about the work. He
reserves judgment on who exactly "Shakespeare" was or were (DeVere, with
possible collaboration from Derby, is the leading theory), but he is on
record as stating that the "evidence" in no way supports the man from
Stratford as the author of the two classical poems, the plays, and the
sonnets. My colleague here, Andy Dvorak, our History instructor,
recently returned from a conference in London on the Authorship
Controversy, held at the Globe, and the Director of the RSC (I can't now
recall his name) was the keynote speaker. His talk was about how the
tide is changing on this question.

I mean, you really think the youngster just arrived from the provinces
could have written the erotic Venus and Adonis to the Earl of
Southampton? How'd that happen, as they say? 

Anyway, check out Price's article in the Skeptic, available at a Barnes
and Noble near you, and it will lead you to other things of interest on
the matter.

Kent


Bob Grumman said:

>Just what new evidence has turned up for the Earl of Oxford in this 
"fascinating and rapidly changing world of Shakespeare authorship
studies," 
Kent?  I admit that the attribution of cerebral dysfunctionality to
people 
who believe in things which all the material evidence contradicts is
not in 
fashion, but being right has always appealed more to me than being in 
fashion.  I do retract "severe" from my description of the wacks who
think 
Oxford wrote the works of Shakespeare, however.  To be so poor at
reasoning 
as they are would seem a severe handicap to me, but I realize that
inability 
to reason doesn't bother most people, and doesn't even interfere that
much 
in their lives.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 25 17:32:51 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:32:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
References: <30.773473a7.3016a6dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01b901c59160$695e8fe0$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In a message dated 7/25/2005 3:38:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:
    Thanks Bob---I've found none of the Earl of Ox arguments at all convincing,
    and many of them have an either explicit or implicit CLASS-BIAS.
    I'm open to the possibility that it wasn't the biographical William
    Shakespeare who wrote all the plays, but the Oxfordians have no convinced.
    Wanna give us your best argument in favor of him, Kent
  There is something slightly akin to UFO reports in these 'real Shakespeare unmasked' theories. A grainy photo and odd lights 
  in night sky aren't going to cut it. 

  Is Francis Bacon still in the hunt? Or has he definitely been 
  ruled out.
  Finnegan


  Better keep a close eye on me in this thread, James.  If you think I'm bad about knownstream poetry, wait'll you hear me inveigh against anti-Stratfordianism!  The irony is that I'm as ferociously with the academics on the Shakespeare Authorship Question as I am against them on the value of what I'm now calling mimeostream poetry (poetry that started out on mimeo-ed zines and thus escaped the notice of the academics).

  I think anti-Stratfordianism, the doctrine that the backwoods Shakespeare couldn't've had the brains to have written the works attributed to him, in spite of all the evidence that he did, is most akin to von Danikenism, the doctrine that the primitive Ancient Egyptians couldn't've had the brains to have built all them thar pyramids, in spite of all the evidence that they did.

  I'm open to the possibility that WIlliam Shakespeare of Stratford did not write the works attributed to him, but only to the degree that I believe Elvis may still be alive.  Francis Bacon is still in the running for the title of True Author, but lost a lot of ground because of the idiotic codes his craziest followers "found" in Shakespearean texts.  Christopher Marlowe is second in popularity to the Earl of Oxford, I believe.  A couple of other Earls are considered contenders, too.

  --Bob G.
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From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Mon Jul 25 17:39:11 2005
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:39:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's Poem in the New Yorker
Message-ID: <200507252143.j6PLhaL2004539@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:18:28 -0400 *************
Chris Lott wrote:
>>>  it's a shame he
>>> can't meet the standards he would hold up for so many others.
>>
>>Why? Seriously. Is this necessary to being a good critic? Might it not
>>even be detrimental? Was Pauline Kael (or insert your favorite film
>>critic here) lesser because she wasn't a great director or
>>cinematographer?
>>
>>Or is this just a blue-sky, "well it would be nice" kind of thing
>>since it is such a rare occurrence (or at least it is rare that good
>>artists expend a lot of energy in criticism).
>>
Well I don't think Pauline Kael (or most any film critic)
ever put out a movie or script under her own name.

I've always thought Logan is brave to put out such god-awful poems over
his signature (I'm with Jeff on that - I give that poem about -50 on a
scale of 0 to 10) given the savagery he uses to comment on others' work.
I wonder if he's just daring some critics to speak honestly about his stuff.

Richard


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 25 19:35:16 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:35:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
Message-ID: <200507252211.j6PMBwpa121870@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

Just as I suspected, an argument doesn't escape classist assumptions....

C

----------
>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
>Date: Mon, Jul 25, 2005, 1:28 PM
>

> I mean, you really think the youngster just arrived from the provinces
> could have written the erotic Venus and Adonis to the Earl of
> Southampton? How'd that happen, as they say? 


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 25 18:37:30 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:37:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
References: <s2e51330.049@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <01d401c59169$71906810$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Kent, I know all about Price.  She's just one more trivial wack ignoring all the DIRECT EVIDENCE for Shakespeare and pointing out what supposedly should be there and is not.  She is also entirely unoriginal.  Standard procedure for anti-Stratfordians is simply to concentrate of what is supposedly missing.  He has a monument in his hometown church that identifies him as an author with the talent of Virgil who now dwells on Mount Olympus?  Well, so what?  How come we don't have a manuscript from him?  (For the same reason we have almost no manuscripts of plays from anyone of the time.)

Price is a propagandist.  And you're just retailing her ignorant baloney.  (For instance, Shakespeare was not a grain merchant; like just about every home-owner in Stratford, he kept stocks of grain, and sold the surplus.  Nor was he particular litigious: he twice went to court after people who owed him money--as have I.  Etc.)  

I won't go into detail on this but the facts are that ALL the direct evidence indicates that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare.  There is not one piece of hard evidence that indicates anyone else did, not one.


> Bob,
> 
> The issue is that the evidence does not support the orthodox,
> Stratfordian claim. There is just too much that does not add up, and too
> much that should be there that is inexplicably missing-- like a shred of
> evidence that anyone cared when the mean-spirited and litigious grain
> merchant from Stratford died (after leaving behind a crass and fairly
> illiterate will). There are testimonials upon the deaths of all the
> leading and middle authors of the day, even testimonials to minor
> writers. The logical explanation for this black hole of silence is that
> there was general knowledge in English literary society that WS was the
> stand-in for the real author of the works, who, following the
> conventions of his social class, and because of the sensitive relation
> between politics and the theatre, chose to not take public attribution
> for the works.
> 
> Yes, growing numbers of studies point in the direction of WS as an
> Elizabethan Batillus or Terence, i.e. someone who fronted for the actual
> author. One of these is by Diana Price, author of _Shakespeare's
> Unorthodox Biography: New Evidence of an Authorship Problem_. She has a
> substantial article in the Vol. 11, No. 3, 2005 issue of Skeptic
> Magazine, where she summarizes some of the problems Stratfordians face,
> once they get beyond snitty, defensive ad hominems. Indeed, there is a
> considerable amount of recent scholarship, which you may choose to
> ignore and dismiss with derision, but which will still be there once you
> stop sputtering away. (Joseph Sobran's book, Alias Shakespeare, is a
> good place to start.)
> 
> Did you know that the Director of the Royal Shakespeare Company is an
> anti-Stratfordian? He's a guy who knows a bit about the work. He
> reserves judgment on who exactly "Shakespeare" was or were (DeVere, with
> possible collaboration from Derby, is the leading theory), but he is on
> record as stating that the "evidence" in no way supports the man from
> Stratford as the author of the two classical poems, the plays, and the
> sonnets. My colleague here, Andy Dvorak, our History instructor,
> recently returned from a conference in London on the Authorship
> Controversy, held at the Globe, and the Director of the RSC (I can't now
> recall his name) was the keynote speaker. His talk was about how the
> tide is changing on this question.
> 
> I mean, you really think the youngster just arrived from the provinces
> could have written the erotic Venus and Adonis to the Earl of
> Southampton? How'd that happen, as they say? 

V&A was published when he was 28!  Why don't you tell me how a young literary geinus arriving in London would not have made the acquaintance of a patron of poets?

> Anyway, check out Price's article in the Skeptic, available at a Barnes
> and Noble near you, and it will lead you to other things of interest on
> the matter.
> 
> Kent

Kent, I've read all the crap you've mentioned.  I would suggest you go to http://shakespeareauthorship.com/howdowe.html and read what David Kathmand and Tom Reedy have to say.  It's all fact&logic-based, so probably won't have much effect on you, but it will show you why I could never be an Oxfordian.  And/or you might read The Case for Shakespeare, by Scott McCrea.  It has some errors in it, and misses a few good arguments, but is five times more intelligent that Price's book, and sane.  And/or you can wait for my book, if I ever get around to finishing it: Shakespeare and the Rigidniks: a Study of the Cerebral Dysfunctionality of Those Who Believe Shakespeare Was Not Shakespeare.  Its thesis, very much simplified, is that anti-Stratfordians can't believe in the possibility of self-education--because they are incapable of it themselves, and/or fear it in others because it may result in non-conformity.

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 25 18:52:38 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:52:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
References: <200507252211.j6PMBwpa121870@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <01d901c5916b$8e752fe0$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> I mean, you really think the youngster just arrived from the provinces
>> could have written the erotic Venus and Adonis to the Earl of
>> Southampton? How'd that happen, as they say?
>


> Just as I suspected, an argument doesn't escape classist assumptions....
>
> C

Exactly.  It began with the belief that a noble had to have written such 
noble material, but that wound up taking a beating, so the most 
sophisticated anti-Stratfordians are more educational elitists than social 
elitists.  Actually, they're mostly a confused mixture.

They sometimes try to argue that it wasn't the True Author's being a noble 
by blood that counted, just that he had to have been a noble to know how 
nobles behaved (which is classist since based on the idea that nobles are so 
different from non-nobles that a clever, empathetic non-noble couldn't write 
about them as authentically as Shakespeare is said to have (although real 
scholars say he got his nobles no more right than most modern movie makers 
usually get their baseball players or whatever right).  Of course, some 
Stratfordians want Shakespeare to be Shakespeare for anti-classist reasons.

The most comic thing about the anti-Stratfordians is that so many of the 
most zealous of them want to give their True Author not only all the works 
of Shakespeare but those of Marlowe, too--and maybe even Spenser, and 
certainly Arthur Golding (translator of Ovid's Metamorphoses and Oxford's 
uncle) and several minor poets of the time.  Some give him the works of 
Cervantes, believe it or not!  There's some kind of need to deify him--to 
make him the greatest philosopher who ever lived as well as a "mere" poet, 
and a world-class legal scholar, and as knowledgeable of medicine as any 
doctor of his times--and the illegitimate son of Queen Elizabeth!

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 25 19:03:54 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:03:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's Poem in the New Yorker
References: <200507252143.j6PLhaL2004539@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c5916d$227bd210$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Has this poem been quoted in a post to New-Poetry?  I'm curious about it. 
I've read a number of Logan poems, and found them mediocre but seldom really 
bad, and I've seen a couple I thought fairly good.

--Bob G. 




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Jul 25 19:10:28 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:10:28 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's Poem in the New Yorker
Message-ID: <a3.783156ce.3016cb64@cs.com>

My New Yorker arrived late and I just read the poem--metrically uncertain but 
generally inoffensive with an overall quality that I thought ok. No 
world-beater of a poem, but it surely provides no sound reason to denounce all of 
Logan's work--criticism and poetry.  Incidentally, I've never heard of his being 
included in the New Formalist ranks; he's not in Rebel Angels, for instance.  
His mentor was Justice, who moved easily between formalism and free verse.  I 
liked the Kael analogy that someone brought up.  Pauline Kael has always been 
one of my Great Ones, and she's proof-positive that a critic doesn't have to be 
a practitioner of the genre to be valid.  The only problem with poetry is that 
the vast majority of poetry critics have also been poets--Bogan, Jarrell, 
etc.  I edited an anthology of poet-critics, The Advocates of Poetry, and noted 
that even such critics as Blackmur were also poets (if not of the first or even 
second rank).  Poetry must be unique among the arts in this regard, in that 
critics of the other arts are content to be knowledgeable members of the 
audience, not in the game themselves.
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Jul 25 19:13:34 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:13:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
Message-ID: <s2e52be0.018@mail.highland.edu>

Chris,

The lack of fit has nothing to do with "classist assumptions." It has
to do with certain *realities* of class and biography--the idea that a
newcomer of WS's background and standing would have been in a position
to approach and address one of England's most powerful men in such an
intimate manner is very questionable. Quite a bit has been written on
the matter of the two "early" poems, in this regard. Sobran explores the
problem in much more depth in his book, but here is a bit:
http://www.sobran.com/articles/earlypoems.shtml

Yes, the question of educational upbringing and training is a relevant
one in the whole controversy, but the notion that one is an aristocratic
classist if one questions the evidence for the Straford man's authorship
is just so much hooey. There is sentimentality and there is historical
accuracy, the latter of which in the case of this controversy is
increasingly under dispute. Accuracy sometimes runs up against
sentimentality: It just *might* be that William Shakespeare of Stratford
was not an author, but an actor, who enriched himself by fronting for
Oxford and then retired to mean-spirited profiteering in his home town
right around the time of Oxford's death. There certainly are snobs who
support Oxford's authorship, but if Oxford *was* the author, the fact
would not make all anti-Stratfordians classists!

Do you really think I am a "classist," Chris? 

Kent 

>Just as I suspected, an argument doesn't escape classist
assumptions....

C
> I mean, you really think the youngster just arrived from the
provinces
> could have written the erotic Venus and Adonis to the Earl of
> Southampton? How'd that happen, as they say? 




From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 25 19:38:53 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:38:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's Poem in the New Yorker
In-Reply-To: <a3.783156ce.3016cb64@cs.com>
References: <a3.783156ce.3016cb64@cs.com>
Message-ID: <d561278e629711bfc7fe1fe65b578d98@earthlink.net>


On Jul 25, 2005, at 7:10 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> My New Yorker arrived late and I just read the poem--metrically 
> uncertain but generally inoffensive with an overall quality that I 
> thought ok. No world-beater of a poem, but it surely provides no sound 
> reason to denounce all of Logan's work--criticism and poetry.? 
> Incidentally, I've never heard of his being included in the New 
> Formalist ranks; he's not in Rebel Angels, for instance.? His mentor 
> was Justice, who moved easily between formalism and free verse.? I 
> liked the Kael analogy that someone brought up.? Pauline Kael has 
> always been one of my Great Ones, and she's proof-positive that a 
> critic doesn't have to be a practitioner of the genre to be valid.? 
> The only problem with poetry is that the vast majority of poetry 
> critics have also been poets--Bogan, Jarrell, etc.? I edited an 
> anthology of poet-critics, The Advocates of Poetry, and noted that 
> even such critics as Blackmur were also poets (if not of the first or 
> even second rank).? Poetry must be unique among the arts in this 
> regard, in that critics of the other arts are content to be 
> knowledgeable members of the audience, not in the game themselves._

With some conspicuous exceptions such as H. Berlioz.

Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Mon Jul 25 20:11:13 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:11:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
Message-ID: <15d.555a3416.3016d9a1@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 7/25/2005 5:29:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes:

I mean,  you really think the youngster just arrived from the provinces
could have  written the erotic Venus and Adonis to the Earl of
Southampton? How'd that  happen, as they say? 



It's called genius.
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Mon Jul 25 20:16:40 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:16:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's Poem in the New Yorker
Message-ID: <cf.2d687213.3016dae8@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/25/2005 7:10:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:
As I said earlier, my complaint with Logan is that he doesn't meet the  
standards he sets for others. And I don't find his criticism to be that  strong 
either. It's fun occasionally to see him skewer some poet you have no use  for 
although he usually turns right around and does the same to someone you  love, 
but once hte poison pen is put away, I don't find much real insight into  the 
poems themselves.
 
 

My New Yorker arrived late and I just read the  poem--metrically uncertain 
but generally inoffensive with an overall quality  that I thought ok. No 
world-beater of a poem, but it surely provides no sound  reason to denounce all of 
Logan's work--criticism and poetry.   Incidentally, I've never heard of his 
being included in the New Formalist  ranks; he's not in Rebel Angels, for 
instance.  His mentor was Justice,  who moved easily between formalism and free verse. 
 I liked the Kael  analogy that someone brought up.  Pauline Kael has always 
been one of my  Great Ones, and she's proof-positive that a critic doesn't 
have to be a  practitioner of the genre to be valid.  The only problem with 
poetry is  that the vast majority of poetry critics have also been poets--Bogan, 
Jarrell,  etc.  I edited an anthology of poet-critics, The Advocates of Poetry, 
and  noted that even such critics as Blackmur were also poets (if not of the 
first  or even second rank).  Poetry must be unique among the arts in this  
regard, in that critics of the other arts are content to be knowledgeable  
members of the audience, not in the game themselves.  




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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Jul 25 20:22:25 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:22:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
Message-ID: <s2e53c08.034@mail.highland.edu>

Bob Grumman said:

>She's just one more trivial wack ignoring all the DIRECT EVIDENCE for
Shakespeare 


This rather unnecessary language seems to be cloaking some
nervousness...


What direct evidence? 

The monument? There is strong evidence, in fact, that the monument is a
remake, with quill added at a later date and a sack of grain replaced by
a "pillow." But one original element to the monument, and the most
interesting thing about it, perhaps, is the horrible jingle Shakespeare
has as his parting words to posterity: Curs'd be he who moves my bones,
etc.

The first folio, attributed to "William Shakespeare"? There are a
number of fascinating questions about the folio. A good discussion of
this can be found in Bertram Fields's recently released Players: The
Mysterious Identity of William Shakespeare. The attribution on the folio
proves nothing, and much about it, including its dedication to Pembroke
and Montgomery, which links it to Oxford (and which would explain
Jonson's contribution, he being in their pay), gives strong credence to
an alternative authorship and its cover up.

Greene's Groatsworth of Wit? Bertram Fields takes this apart
completely.
His book, which is a balanced treatment of the controversy, without any
phrases like "trivial wack":
http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060775599

Shakespeare's prominent position in the company's records? As Price
shows, persons were NOT prominently named in theatrical records for
their artistic contributions, but for their business contributions.
Shakespeare's prominence in the records proves nothing of his
authorship.

This is pretty much the "evidence" for William Shakespeare of
Stratford. It is the evidence that is stunningly missing, again, that
raises questions that are worth asking. Some people don't like that
these are being asked, obviously.

One thing I will concede to Bob Grumman: Shakespeare was not just a
wealthy grain merchant who sued poor people for a few shillings. He was
also a prominent money lender and a real estate speculator, who made
deals that suggest he cared more about his pocket book than about his
fellow citizens suffering enclosure.

I really don't have time to get into a drawn-out thread on this. There
is plenty available out there for people to investigate on their own,
written by people who know much more about the issues than I do. It's a
fun and fascinating topic and time perhaps will tell. Or perhaps it
won't.

Kent




From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Jul 25 21:14:46 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:14:46 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
In-Reply-To: <30.773473a7.3016a6dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ECOWS05MrCXIjl4OsXY0012cdfd@smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk>

 


There is something slightly akin to UFO reports in these 'real Shakespeare
unmasked' theories. A grainy photo and odd lights in night sky aren't going
to cut it.  
 
UFOlogy as practised by New Historicists who know damn fine that there will
never be any way of knowing one way or the other for sure

Is Francis Bacon still in the hunt? Or has he definitely been ruled out. 
 
 I like Umberto Eco's narration of all this, in Foucault's Pendulum. Very
funny.
 
P 

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 25 21:32:06 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:32:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
References: <s2e53c08.034@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <029301c59183$1c8504b0$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Bob Grumman said:
>
>>She's just one more trivial wack ignoring all the DIRECT EVIDENCE for
> Shakespeare
>
>
> This rather unnecessary language seems to be cloaking some
> nervousness...

Another standardly anti-Stratfordian remark.  Contempt for ignorance is 
different from nervousness.

> What direct evidence?
>
> The monument? There is strong evidence, in fact, that the monument is a
> remake, with quill added at a later date and a sack of grain replaced by
> a "pillow." But one original element to the monument, and the most
> interesting thing about it, perhaps, is the horrible jingle Shakespeare
> has as his parting words to posterity: Curs'd be he who moves my bones,
> etc.

Kent, the jingle is not part of the monument (and not necessarily by 
Shakespeare).  The monument is, of course, direct evidence.  That wacks can 
claim it's fake doesn't make it not direct evidence.  Its inscription, which 
speaks of the Olympian poet, Shakespeare, has been shown beyond doubt to 
have been part of it from the time it was erected.  Nor is there any 
evidence to indicate it was appreciably changed in any way.

> The first folio, attributed to "William Shakespeare"? There are a
> number of fascinating questions about the folio. A good discussion of
> this can be found in Bertram Fields's recently released Players: The
> Mysterious Identity of William Shakespeare. The attribution on the folio
> proves nothing, and much about it, including its dedication to Pembroke
> and Montgomery, which links it to Oxford (and which would explain
> Jonson's contribution, he being in their pay), gives strong credence to
> an alternative authorship and its cover up.

There is no evidence for Jonson's being in anyone's pay to participate in a 
cover-up.  The name on the first folio and the picture in it are, with 
Jonson's, Digges's, Heminges's and Condell's uncontradicted testimony are 
sufficient by themselves to convince anyone rational that Shakespeare wrote 
the plays in the first folio.  If not prove it, which only the ignorant 
would ask for, nothing in history being provable.

> Greene's Groatsworth of Wit? Bertram Fields takes this apart
> completely.
> His book, which is a balanced treatment of the controversy, without any
> phrases like "trivial wack":

His book is ignorant nonsense.

 http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060775599>> Shakespeare's prominent position in the company's records? As Price> shows, persons were NOT prominently named in theatrical records for> their artistic contributions, but for their business contributions.> Shakespeare's prominence in the records proves nothing of his> authorship.Price shows nothing of the sort.  She speculates that Shakespeare's obviousprominence was due to reasons other than his being the company playwright,and one of its leading actors--because she can't stand the possibility thathe could have been a self-taught genius.> This is pretty much the "evidence" for William Shakespeare of> Stratford. It is the evidence that is stunningly missing, again, that> raises questions that are worth asking. Some people don't like that> these are being asked, obviously.Like I say, a crank can always find missing evidence, or other excuses forbelieving in his delusion in spite of all the facts.> One thing I will concede to Bob Grumman: Shakespeare was not just a> wealthy grain merchant who sued poor people for a few shillings. He was> also a prominent money lender and a real estate speculator, who made> deals that suggest he cared more about his pocket book than about his> fellow citizens suffering enclosure.Kent, you don't know what you're talking about.  There are at least 60pieces of evidence directly indicating Shakespeare was a writer, and ten orfifteen indicating he was an actor, but only three or four indicating thathis HOUSEHOLD kept stores of grain, as the majority of other households inStratford did, and three or four indicating he bought real estate and madeinvestments (as did his fellow-actors Condell and Heminges, and as any saneperson would have expected him to), and two or three indicating he may havemade loans, as many people did, and do (including even me, although I'venever had very much money and am certainly not a money lender).> I really don't have time to get into a drawn-out thread on this. There> is plenty available out there for people to investigate on their own,> written by people who know much more about the issues than I do. It's a> fun and fascinating topic and time perhaps will tell. Or perhaps it> won't.>> KentThe only thing interesting about it is the fact that people who seem fairlyrational about many subjects can disbelieve in Shakespeare.--Bob G.



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 26 01:57:55 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:57:55 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
Message-ID: <200507260434.j6Q4VQhC090392@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>



> Chris,
> 
> The lack of fit has nothing to do with "classist assumptions." It has
> to do with certain *realities* of class and biography--the idea that a
> newcomer of WS's background and standing would have been in a position
> to approach and address one of England's most powerful men in such an
> intimate manner is very questionable.

Kent--
Sure, it's questionable. But stranger things have happened (and I don't just
mean in his plays, where a Viola like figure survives a shipwreck and serves
a Duke, etc...) Certainly the plays are filled with examples of "precocious"
lower-class people foisting themselves on, or being HIT-ON, by rich and/or
noble folks. That doesn't prove anything, but I could turn your argument on
its head just as easily and use that to invalidate the claim that a NOBLE at
the "envious court" would really know of such experiences as well as the
author of the Sx plays does....


> Yes, the question of educational upbringing and training is a relevant
> one in the whole controversy, but the notion that one is an aristocratic
> classist if one questions the evidence for the Straford man's authorship
> is just so much hooey. There is sentimentality and there is historical
> accuracy, the latter of which in the case of this controversy is
> increasingly under dispute.

Of course, but I have no particular sentimental attachment to "the great
Shakespeare" or even to "Judith Shakespeare"---And of course, the historical
accuracy is in dispute. The point is FOR WHATEVER REASONS not much is known
about a) the biographical Shakespeare (and one could say it was because he
wasn't the author but rather an actor, but much is known about alot of other
actors, so there's something very weird about the lack of biography about
Shakespeare) and b) the composition of the plays (a lot of that explained by
the fact that it was better business not to publish, etc., as well as the
virtually totalitarian regime of the time)----and so, sure, in absence of
certainty, any theory is possible, even plausible.



 Do you really think I am a "classist," Chris?

Kent, my point is not whether YOU are a classist, just that the position
you're arguing for does appeal to that.....

It's funny, with all your interest in playing with notions of authorship,
I'd think you'd be more into the "less classist" collaborative notions of
authorship that some espouse (i.e. that their was a lot of improvisation and
variance from performance to performance---ROBERT ARMIN etc allegedly made
up most of his own lines) rather than the Oxford one, which doesn't actually
problematize authoriship all that much. It just trades "Shakespeare" for
"Oxford"---What good does that do?

Personally, I'm really GLAD there's so much mystery about the "author,"
because it allows us to read the text in different ways. This actually
ties in with the other thread about THEORY/CRITICISM and POETRY (re
LOGAN/SILLIMAN). It's really cool that there wasn't some definitive essay by
THE AUTHOR OF SHAKESPEARE'S PLAYS (whether "the man from stratford" or BACON
or his paid fool, one Mr, Eggs) because then if some critics want to say
that THE AUTHOR OBVIOUSLY SIDED WITH HENRY V against FALSTAFF, they can make
an argument that convinces a lot of people. But contrarily, if one wants to
make the opposite argument, one can as well.

The whole question of "authorship" gets played out in the body of work in
very intense ways, and that's why at a certain point the Oxfordians and
baconians in general just bore me....

Hey, I'm leaving town for a while, so I'll leave it at this for now....

take care,
Chris





>
> Kent
>
>>Just as I suspected, an argument doesn't escape classist
> assumptions....
>
> C
>> I mean, you really think the youngster just arrived from the
> provinces
>> could have written the erotic Venus and Adonis to the Earl of
>> Southampton? How'd that happen, as they say?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jul 26 07:39:55 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:39:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
References: <200507260434.j6Q4VQhC090392@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <001d01c591d6$bf0ebc50$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Of course, but I have no particular sentimental attachment to "the great
> Shakespeare" or even to "Judith Shakespeare"---And of course, the 
> historical
> accuracy is in dispute. The point is FOR WHATEVER REASONS not much is 
> known
> about a) the biographical Shakespeare (and one could say it was because he
> wasn't the author but rather an actor, but much is known about alot of 
> other
> actors, so there's something very weird about the lack of biography about
> Shakespeare)

Actually very little is known about most of the actors of the times, and 
very little is known about just about all the professional playwrights of 
the time except Jonson, who was younger than Shakespeare and more or less 
founded the practice of author-worship.  So there's nothing weird at all 
about how little we know of Shakespeare's biography.

--Bob G. 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 08:36:19 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:36:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
In-Reply-To: <001d01c591d6$bf0ebc50$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42E5F603.976.D09B5@localhost>

> > Of course, but I have no particular sentimental attachment to "the great
> > Shakespeare" or even to "Judith Shakespeare"---And of course, the 
> > historical
> > accuracy is in dispute. The point is FOR WHATEVER REASONS not much is 
> > known
> > about a) the biographical Shakespeare (and one could say it was because he
> > wasn't the author but rather an actor, but much is known about alot of 
> > other
> > actors, so there's something very weird about the lack of biography about
> > Shakespeare)

What's not weird at all about this discussion is that the non-academic, 
Grumman, has no trouble with the notion that someone not from the 
Oxbridge tradition became the most honored playwright in history, while 
the academic, Johnson, denies that anyone as outside the system could 
have done so. It's an example of the long-running dispute between 
Talent and Tradition. Grumman seems to believe Talent can overcome 
every obstacle and produce SHAKESPEARE; Johnson seems to  
believe that no amount of Talent could.

Marcus








From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 26 09:05:18 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:05:18 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
References: <42E5F603.976.D09B5@localhost>
Message-ID: <005f01c591e2$ad358750$1b042cd9@Robin>

> What's not weird at all about this discussion is that the non-academic,
> Grumman, has no trouble with the notion that someone not from the
> Oxbridge tradition became the most honored playwright in history, while
> the academic, Johnson, denies that anyone as outside the system could
> have done so. It's an example of the long-running dispute between
> Talent and Tradition. Grumman seems to believe Talent can overcome
> every obstacle and produce SHAKESPEARE; Johnson seems to
> believe that no amount of Talent could.
>
> Marcus

It's more straightforward in that in this particular instance Bob is simply
right and Kent is simply wrong.

But Bob has more patience than me in dealing with the Authorship Question.

It's so unremittingly *tedious*.

I think Kent's (to me unlikely) espousal of a conspiracy-theory (rating
alongside Roswell) has less to do with his academic orientation and
allegiances and more to do with a possible link to Kent's interest in
heteronyms.

... so there may be a complex subtext behind Kent's posts.

I may be wrong, Kent may actually *believe* that there's the remotest
smidgin of evidence that de Vere or whoever other than WS wrote the plays
attributed to WS (stranger things have happened) but I'm reluctant to accept
this.

Robin Hamilton




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 09:26:28 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:26:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <s2e4d603.041@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>

On 25 Jul 2005 at 12:06, Kent Johnson wrote:
> I want to ask you three questions, and I admit in advance to asking
> them so as to clarify, for the record, some conclusions that must follow
> from your extreme premise:
> 
> 1) Is Leaves of Grass poetry or prose?

There's metered language in Leaves of Grass, and those sections are 
poetry. The non-metered sections are prose. What to call the whole, 
though, seems to be your question, since you can't not know that there 
are metered and non-metered sections. I prefer to think of it as "The 
Collected Prose and Poetry of Walt Whitman". I think Whitman was the 
first of a series of prolific American writers who were impatient with the 
pace and methods of achieving prominence, and whose political agenda 
within the po-biz was to get well-known on the "No publicity is bad 
publicity, just spell my name right" theory. Where Whitman was really 
good was at realizing that the actual poems didn't matter much -- what 
mattered was to be known as a poet, to be well-known, famous, as a 
poet, and the next generation of academics would make their 
reputations explaining why whatever the famous poet wrote is really a 
breakthrough in poetry, irrespective of the poet's intentions or abilities.

> 2) Is Cathay poetry or prose?

And Pound was the next American poet to realize that Whitman was 
right. To what extent it's possible to translate poetry from one language 
to another is hard to say, but it seems to me that the modern notion that 
it is some fine essence that one is trying to bring from one language to 
another is wrong. Poetry is not a fine essence -- it's a way of writing, it's 
rhetoric, not feeling. Feeling is necessary but not sufficient, and to 
translate the feeling accurately is not enough to achieve poetry in the 
language into which that feeling is being translated. Poetry is about how 
you say it in the langauge that the poem is in, not the feeling, not the 
thought. Thought and feeling have to be there, but if thought and 
feeling, or thought or feeling, are all you've got, then you've got prose. It 
may be art in prose, but it's not art in poetry.

> 3) Is This in Which poetry or prose?

Prose; it wants to be philosophy of the Wittgensteininan sort that tries to 
condense insights and then offer them to the reader with an evocative 
style that tries to get that reader to feel as well as think the problem. But 
Oppen's work seems to me to be prose examinations or evocations of 
relatively discrete philosophical problems and issues. 

Marcus




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 26 10:10:49 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:10:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
References: <s2e51330.049@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <007601c591eb$d4389ff0$1b042cd9@Robin>

Kent:

            [addressed to Bob Grumman]:

> Did you know that the Director of the Royal Shakespeare Company is an
> anti-Stratfordian?

If this a reference to Mark Rylance (who is artistic director of the Globe,
not the RSC, though he's connected there), it's an unfortunate name (leaving
aside Kent's Appeal to Authority in whomsoever he was citing) to mention.

Even *before* you get to Rylance's putative espousal of the non-Stratfordian
authorship of F (was that in the NYT piece?) , you have to get past his
tortuous connection with the London School of Economic Studies and Ficino
and Astral Magic and +The Tempest+.

    K, I *know* ...  This is on the verge of libel, but when it comes to
barking-mad ...

        I was *there*.

                    <sigh>

I +knew+ I should never have got involved in this particular thread, but I
just happened to be around when the proverbial excrement hit the spinning
object, and one aspect of it was that it was screamingly *funny*.

            ... your history, my pulses ...

Well, *I* found the whole thing screamingly funny -- but then I wasn't
likely to be on the receiving end of a libel suit.

        The Snow Dormouse.

> He's a guy who knows a bit about the work.

        Gee uz a //break//, son.  There are directors and actors and ASMs.
And and then there are Assistant Artistic Directors ...

> He
> reserves judgment on who exactly "Shakespeare" was or were (DeVere, with
> possible collaboration from Derby, is the leading theory), but he is on
> record as stating that the "evidence" in no way supports the man from
> Stratford as the author of the two classical poems, the plays, and the
> sonnets. My colleague here, Andy Dvorak, our History instructor,
> recently returned from a conference in London on the Authorship
> Controversy, held at the Globe, and the Director of the RSC (I can't now
> recall his name) was the keynote speaker. His talk was about how the
> tide is changing on this question.

Kent, for someone as bright as you, you were on the classic receiving end of
a snow-job.

        I thought better of your brain.

                <g>

R.




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 26 10:29:25 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:29:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
Message-ID: <4bb502f924fa41e87f4b9d6beadb27fa@earthlink.net>

Taxis are poetry; limos and other cars are prose.

Hal

On Jul 26, 2005, at 9:26 AM, Marcus Bales wrote:

> On 25 Jul 2005 at 12:06, Kent Johnson wrote:
>> I want to ask you three questions, and I admit in advance to asking
>> them so as to clarify, for the record, some conclusions that must 
>> follow
>> from your extreme premise:
>>
>> 1) Is Leaves of Grass poetry or prose?
>
> There's metered language in Leaves of Grass, and those sections are
> poetry. The non-metered sections are prose. What to call the whole,
> though, seems to be your question, since you can't not know that there
> are metered and non-metered sections. I prefer to think of it as "The
> Collected Prose and Poetry of Walt Whitman". I think Whitman was the
> first of a series of prolific American writers who were impatient with 
> the
> pace and methods of achieving prominence, and whose political agenda
> within the po-biz was to get well-known on the "No publicity is bad
> publicity, just spell my name right" theory. Where Whitman was really
> good was at realizing that the actual poems didn't matter much -- what
> mattered was to be known as a poet, to be well-known, famous, as a
> poet, and the next generation of academics would make their
> reputations explaining why whatever the famous poet wrote is really a
> breakthrough in poetry, irrespective of the poet's intentions or 
> abilities.
>
>> 2) Is Cathay poetry or prose?
>
> And Pound was the next American poet to realize that Whitman was
> right. To what extent it's possible to translate poetry from one 
> language
> to another is hard to say, but it seems to me that the modern notion 
> that
> it is some fine essence that one is trying to bring from one language 
> to
> another is wrong. Poetry is not a fine essence -- it's a way of 
> writing, it's
> rhetoric, not feeling. Feeling is necessary but not sufficient, and to
> translate the feeling accurately is not enough to achieve poetry in the
> language into which that feeling is being translated. Poetry is about 
> how
> you say it in the langauge that the poem is in, not the feeling, not 
> the
> thought. Thought and feeling have to be there, but if thought and
> feeling, or thought or feeling, are all you've got, then you've got 
> prose. It
> may be art in prose, but it's not art in poetry.
>
>> 3) Is This in Which poetry or prose?
>
> Prose; it wants to be philosophy of the Wittgensteininan sort that 
> tries to
> condense insights and then offer them to the reader with an evocative
> style that tries to get that reader to feel as well as think the 
> problem. But
> Oppen's work seems to me to be prose examinations or evocations of
> relatively discrete philosophical problems and issues.
>
> Marcus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From tad at opus40.org  Tue Jul 26 10:37:11 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:37:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's Poem in the New Yorker
References: <cf.2d687213.3016dae8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01c591ef$855245e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Two separate issues. "Doesn't meet the standards he sets for others" is the Pauline Kael issue - you don't judge her as a critic on the basis of whether she'd be able to make a movie as well as Douglas Sirk.

"Criticism not that strong" then gets lost in the other complaint. What do we expect from a critic (I'd say there's no one yardstick) and how well does Logan fulfill our expectations?

Logan to me is a reviewer - like David Denby - rather than a critic - like Benedetto Croce. And I'd say he should be judged by the standards one applies to reviewers.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AlMaginnes at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 8:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] William Logan's Poem in the New Yorker


  In a message dated 7/25/2005 7:10:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:
  As I said earlier, my complaint with Logan is that he doesn't meet the standards he sets for others. And I don't find his criticism to be that strong either. It's fun occasionally to see him skewer some poet you have no use for although he usually turns right around and does the same to someone you love, but once hte poison pen is put away, I don't find much real insight into the poems themselves.


    My New Yorker arrived late and I just read the poem--metrically uncertain but generally inoffensive with an overall quality that I thought ok. No world-beater of a poem, but it surely provides no sound reason to denounce all of Logan's work--criticism and poetry.  Incidentally, I've never heard of his being included in the New Formalist ranks; he's not in Rebel Angels, for instance.  His mentor was Justice, who moved easily between formalism and free verse.  I liked the Kael analogy that someone brought up.  Pauline Kael has always been one of my Great Ones, and she's proof-positive that a critic doesn't have to be a practitioner of the genre to be valid.  The only problem with poetry is that the vast majority of poetry critics have also been poets--Bogan, Jarrell, etc.  I edited an anthology of poet-critics, The Advocates of Poetry, and noted that even such critics as Blackmur were also poets (if not of the first or even second rank).  Poetry must be unique among the arts in this regard, in that critics of the other arts are content to be knowledgeable members of the audience, not in the game themselves. 





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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 26 10:40:31 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:40:31 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jus a rhor
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
Message-ID: <009401c591ef$fa295070$1b042cd9@Robin>

> > 2) Is Cathay poetry or prose?

You can't *begin* to talk about Cathay -- it's Cathay/Lustra.

            But what the hell would I know?

                            I'm a Dumb Brit.

                                            R.









From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 26 10:58:10 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:58:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
	<4bb502f924fa41e87f4b9d6beadb27fa@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00a801c591f2$942ff050$1b042cd9@Robin>

Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]

                Kent's Three Questions


> Taxis are poetry; limos and other cars are prose.

Dorothy Parker once said:

        My lover once sent me a red, red rose -- why disn't the bastard send
me a stretch limo?

To be honest, it's possi/bile to front a stretch limo across cyberspace, but
really chickuns it's difficult.

Burns' Red ref Roses are easy, but trying to gift someone with a limo across
cyberspace is complexified.

                    Nah?

        Dun Ronin









From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 11:07:57 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:07:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <00a801c591f2$942ff050$1b042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <42E6198D.18300.97DB6D@localhost>

On 26 Jul 2005 at 15:58, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> > Taxis are poetry; limos and other cars are prose.

Not in the least. 

> Dorothy Parker once said:
> 
>         My lover once sent me a red, red rose -- why disn't the bastard send
> me a stretch limo?

And this demonstrates the falsity of the taxi/limo/other cars analogy you 
make. The charm of the Parker poem is how it is said, not what it says.

Marcus





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 26 11:22:12 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:22:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
Message-ID: <003501c591f5$cc20e4d0$d1d63152@ANNY>

Hi Marcus,

There is much more to translation and much less. I never ask myself

quoting:

"To what extent it's possible to translate poetry from one language
> to another is hard to say, but it seems to me that the modern notion that
> it is some fine essence that one is trying to bring from one language to
> another is wrong."

as you say it is not fine essence, it is not feeling, or is it thought, or 
rhyme, or words, or anything.
It is something that you decide has to be done because of so many things one 
can't even realize.

Be poetry a statement, a breakthrough, a sonnet, whatever, only thing it 
does not have to be is _fake_ that can stay wherever it is with its deserved 
all enveloping spider webs to crack its face and show its features ? la 
Pinocchio,

cheers, Anny

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 3:26 PM


> On 25 Jul 2005 at 12:06, Kent Johnson wrote:
>> I want to ask you three questions, and I admit in advance to asking
>> them so as to clarify, for the record, some conclusions that must follow
>> from your extreme premise:
>>
>> 1) Is Leaves of Grass poetry or prose?
>
> There's metered language in Leaves of Grass, and those sections are
> poetry. The non-metered sections are prose. What to call the whole,
> though, seems to be your question, since you can't not know that there
> are metered and non-metered sections. I prefer to think of it as "The
> Collected Prose and Poetry of Walt Whitman". I think Whitman was the
> first of a series of prolific American writers who were impatient with the
> pace and methods of achieving prominence, and whose political agenda
> within the po-biz was to get well-known on the "No publicity is bad
> publicity, just spell my name right" theory. Where Whitman was really
> good was at realizing that the actual poems didn't matter much -- what
> mattered was to be known as a poet, to be well-known, famous, as a
> poet, and the next generation of academics would make their
> reputations explaining why whatever the famous poet wrote is really a
> breakthrough in poetry, irrespective of the poet's intentions or 
> abilities.
>
>> 2) Is Cathay poetry or prose?
>
> And Pound was the next American poet to realize that Whitman was
> right. To what extent it's possible to translate poetry from one language
> to another is hard to say, but it seems to me that the modern notion that
> it is some fine essence that one is trying to bring from one language to
> another is wrong. Poetry is not a fine essence -- it's a way of writing, 
> it's
> rhetoric, not feeling. Feeling is necessary but not sufficient, and to
> translate the feeling accurately is not enough to achieve poetry in the
> language into which that feeling is being translated. Poetry is about how
> you say it in the langauge that the poem is in, not the feeling, not the
> thought. Thought and feeling have to be there, but if thought and
> feeling, or thought or feeling, are all you've got, then you've got prose. 
> It
> may be art in prose, but it's not art in poetry.
>
>> 3) Is This in Which poetry or prose?
>
> Prose; it wants to be philosophy of the Wittgensteininan sort that tries 
> to
> condense insights and then offer them to the reader with an evocative
> style that tries to get that reader to feel as well as think the problem. 
> But
> Oppen's work seems to me to be prose examinations or evocations of
> relatively discrete philosophical problems and issues.
>
> Marcus
>




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Jul 26 11:23:17 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:23:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
Message-ID: <BF0BCDA4.10CB%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 7/26/05 9:26 AM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote:

> I think Whitman was the
> first of a series of prolific American writers who were impatient with the
> pace and methods of achieving prominence, and whose political agenda
> within the po-biz was to get well-known on the "No publicity is bad
> publicity, just spell my name right" theory. Where Whitman was really
> good was at realizing that the actual poems didn't matter much -- what
> mattered was to be known as a poet, to be well-known, famous, as a
> poet, and the next generation of academics would make their
> reputations explaining why whatever the famous poet wrote is really a
> breakthrough in poetry, irrespective of the poet's intentions or abilities.

There's plenty of evidence in Whitman's biography that he was a brilliant
self-promoter, yes.  And in some ways he understood modern media and
publicity in a deeper fashion than many of his era.

But none of that matters a bit when compared to the achievement of the poems
(or call 'em prosies, I don't care).  Nor should Whitman's attention to
promotion be taken (a slippery move here, Marcus!) to mean that "the actual
poems didn't matter much"--an assertion contradicted on every page of his
biography, not to mention in *Leaves of Grass* itself.

I Heard You Solemn-Sweet Pipes Of The Organ

I heard you solemn-sweet pipes of the organ as last Sunday morn I passed the
church,
Winds of autumn, as I walk'd the woods at dusk I heard your long-stretch'd
sighs up above so mournful,
I heard the perfect Italian tenor singing at the opera, I heard the soprano
in the midst of the quartet singing;
Heart of my love!  you too I heard murmuring low through one of the wrists
around my head,
Heard the pulse of you when all was still ringing little bells last night
under my ear.

   --Walt Whitman



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jul 26 11:28:38 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:28:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
	<4bb502f924fa41e87f4b9d6beadb27fa@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004e01c591f7$13ed0fe0$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Taxis are poetry; limos and other cars are prose.
>
> Hal


Exactly.  Ooops, no, Hal: LIMOS are poetry; taxis and other cars are prose. 
Or is it green Limos . . . ?

The huge problem with defining metered litrature as poetry and all other 
forms of literature as prose is that, exactly as above, you make one of your 
literatures a tiny clump of texts, and the other a vast, discordant range of 
widely-varying texts.  This does not make taxonomic sense.

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 26 11:34:31 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:34:31 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
	<003501c591f5$cc20e4d0$d1d63152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <005301c591f7$84fab660$d1d63152@ANNY>

The poet is a poem



The poet is a poem 24 hours a day.
The poet is an alchemist who knows
how to turn the lead of everyday life into gold.
His poems speak for themselves.
Jotie T'Hooft, Belgi?, 1956 - 1977and if you wish there is the entire Leiden to discover, see here:
http://www.muurgedichten.nl/wallpoems.html


_______________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Jul 26 11:37:27 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:37:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's Poem in the New Yorker
Message-ID: <7f.62bfb0da.3017b2b7@aol.com>

 
Ok, hten, he's a lousy reviewer. When I finish reading one of his reviews,  I 
don't really have any idea of what the writer's work is like, only what  
adjectives Logan applies to him. And I think the quality of Logan's poetry is an  
issue. Pauline Kael didn't make movies, so we can read her film criticism for  
what it is. If she had been making "National Lampoon European Vancation" or  
"Shrek 97" in her off hours, then we might wonder about her standards. We 
might  even wonder about her standards if she made "Wild Strawberries." However, 
she  didn't, so we read her work as the work of someone who knew a lot about  
film and enjoyed writing about it. In hte poetry world, a counterpart might be  
Helen Vendler. 
 
Since Logan writes poetry and publishes his poetry, we must asume he is  
meeting some standard he has set for himself. My observation was that he doesn't  
set the same standards for himself that he seems to set for others.
 
In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:37:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
tad at opus40.org writes:

Two separate issues. "Doesn't meet the standards he sets for others" is  the 
Pauline Kael issue - you don't judge her as a critic on the basis of  whether 
she'd be able to make a movie as well as Douglas Sirk.
 
"Criticism not that strong" then gets lost in the other complaint. What  do 
we expect from a critic (I'd say there's no one yardstick) and how well  does 
Logan fulfill our expectations?
 
Logan to me is a reviewer - like David Denby - rather than a critic -  like 
Benedetto Croce. And I'd say he should be judged by the standards one  applies 
to reviewers.
 



 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 26 11:38:34 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:38:34 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
References: <42E6198D.18300.97DB6D@localhost>
Message-ID: <00de01c591f8$17459440$1b042cd9@Robin>

> And this demonstrates the falsity of the taxi/limo/other cars analogy you
> make. The charm of the Parker poem is how it is said, not what it says.

        {Bloody hell, the Glam Graduade Student nearly raped my guts with a
rusty fishknife joke over a tight joke across this -- and I have to deal
with you're turning my cards down at the edges?

        Not my world sir, not my story.

                The Red Rover.

> Marcus

        http://www.unmediated.org/archives/2005/02/radio_taxi.php

                Bite it and see.

A Former Member of the Algonquin Club.

        Saki.

Sometimes, Marcus, you can come across as simply phenomenally *stoopid*.

            >sigh<

R.




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 26 11:45:54 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:45:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <42E6198D.18300.97DB6D@localhost>
References: <42E6198D.18300.97DB6D@localhost>
Message-ID: <060192bb19722476f42bc9e3305f1d37@earthlink.net>


On Jul 26, 2005, at 11:07 AM, Marcus Bales wrote:

> On 26 Jul 2005 at 15:58, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>>> Taxis are poetry; limos and other cars are prose.
>
> Not in the least.
>
>> Dorothy Parker once said:
>>
>>         My lover once sent me a red, red rose -- why disn't the 
>> bastard send
>> me a stretch limo?
>
> And this demonstrates the falsity of the taxi/limo/other cars analogy 
> you
> make. The charm of the Parker poem is how it is said, not what it says.
>
> Marcus

Not to worry, Marcus. I was just trying to keep you
from feeling lonely.



Hal 		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Tue Jul 26 11:33:14 2005
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:33:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's Poem in the New Yorker
Message-ID: <200507261546.j6QFkSUR011049@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:53:17 -0400 *************
>>As I said earlier, my complaint with Logan is that he doesn't meet the
>>standards he sets for others. And I don't find his criticism to be that  strong
>>either. It's fun occasionally to see him skewer some poet you have no use  for
>>although he usually turns right around and does the same to someone you  love,
>>but once hte poison pen is put away, I don't find much real insight into  the
>>poems themselves.

Exactly right on both counts.  I admit that dubbing Sharon Olds "Poet
Laureate of Bodily Fluids" was satisfying - but failing to grasp the
distinction between factory floor and machine shop - __twice__ when
discussing B.H. Fairchild's book disqualifies Logan as a critic to be
taken seriously.

And with all due respect to Sam and to whomever gave it a 4, this poem
is a mess: anybody who sniffs the gasoline while he's making out with
his sweetie deserves to lose her. those lines... those rhymes (seventies,
lies????... then we're in Paris by the "endless Seine"???? and the next
to last line is incredible.

For those who missed it:


FOR AN OLD GIRLFRIEND, LONG DEAD

Lying on that blanket, nights on the seventh green --
in the dry air the faint scent of gasoline,

nothing above us but the ragged moon,
nothing between but a whispered (ital.) soon...

Well, such was romance in the seventies.
Watergate and Cambodia, the public lies,

made our love seem, somehow, more true.
Of the few things I wanted then, I (ital) needed you.

I remember our last arguments, my angry calls,
then the long silence, those northern falls

we drifted toward our newly manufactured lives.
Does anything else of us survive?

That day in Paris, perhaps, when you swore
our crummy hotel was all you were looking for--

each cobbled Paris street, each dry baguette,
even the worthless sous nothing you'd forget.

Outside, a block away, the endless Seine
flowed roughly, then brightly, then...

Then nothing. Nothing later went quite that far.
I remember that spring.  Those breasts. That car.



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Jul 26 04:57:07 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:57:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Identity?
In-Reply-To: <8c05c14d3f9a4a539473399b64536b9a@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BF0B6513.99E5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/25/05 12:55 PM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Oscar Wilde.
> 
> On Jul 25, 2005, at 6:03 AM, Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>> And that dread city of Cabool
>>  Set at the mountain's scarp?d feet
>> Whose marble tanks are ever full
>>  With water for the noonday heat:
> 
> Hal           Serving the tristate area.
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
I'll have to check with my source. I think you may be right.

Paul




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 26 12:02:59 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:02:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
Message-ID: <s2e61877.085@mail.highland.edu>

Bob Gumman said,

>Actually very little is known about most of the actors of the times,
and 
very little is known about just about all the professional playwrights
of 
the time except Jonson, who was younger than Shakespeare and more or
less 
founded the practice of author-worship.  So there's nothing weird at
all 
about how little we know of Shakespeare's biography.

Can't resist responding to this, which strikes me as more than a bit
disingenuous. 

It is nothing but weird that there is not a single piece of *personal
biographical evidence* for WS as a writer. Nothing. This is actually
quite unique among writers of any reputation of the time.

There is no evidence that anyone in London much cared about WS at his
death, nor for seven years afterward. No eulogies or testimonials? This
is quite weird indeed, given the reputation of "Shakespeare" at the
time.

It is perfectly weird that not a single scrap of evidence exists to
show that anyone in Stratford thought of Shakespeare as any kind of
writer, much less as England's great playwright. Annual compilations of
"Stratford Worthies" don't even mention WS. Shakespeare's son-in-law
makes no mention of his supposedly great father-in-law in his detailed
journals. How is this possible? 

It is more than somewhat weird that a person who wrote so industriously
could evidently barely sign his name. This is not only a matter of the
signatures on his will, which stongly suggest a semi-literate individual
(the Stratfordians say he was infirm), but of earlier signatures in the
record. What's more, this is a will which very weirdly bears not a trace
of evidence that WS had any kind of literary interests. Where are the
books, for example, in this wealthy and "learned" man's property? Did he
not have at least a second-best writing desk to bequeath?

It is quite weird that the plays and sonnets (the latter which are a
real conundrum for Stratfordians, but which fit rather seamlessly into
the Oxfordian hypothesis) bear no descernible reference to WS's
provincial roots. It is likewise weird that the subject matter of the
plays is so full of specific material that would, by all logic, require
intense, high education, intimate access to court life, sophisticated
legal knowledge, fluency (far beyond small Latin and less Greek) in
classical languages, extensive travel, etc. Of course, the more
doctrinaire Stratfordians respond to such common-sense inferences with
cries of "classism." 

And then they start to toss out terms like wacko, ignorant, and so on,
betraying, I believe, that they realize deep down there is fundamentally
nothing to contradict a perfectly plausible and increasingly respected
hypothesis: that the historically blank man from Stratford was a wily
businessman-actor who doubled as an Elizabethan Terence on the pay.

By the way, Bob Grumman claims there was no relation between the
dedicatees of the First Folio, Oxford's intimate in-laws, Earls Pembroke
and Montgomery. In fact, Pembroke was Jonson's patron.

Kent




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Jul 26 05:04:51 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:04:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B3B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <BF0B66E3.99E9%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/25/05 2:26 PM, "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote:

> ...as I remember it, Paul Lake's essay (and i don't have
> access to the book, so please forgive me if i'm
> remembering or attributing this wrongly ) tried to
> scientifically prove that meter and rhyme
> are more "natural" than free verse . . . (maybe it was
> a kind of New Age attempt to promote meter-rhyme
> as being *healthy* for us.....)
 

You must be thinking of "The Shape of Poetry," which has appeared in Poetry
After Modernism, 2nd Ed. and in The Measured Word, frou GA UP.

My original essay in Expansive Poetry was an old one called "Toward a
Liberal Poetics," which advanced the idea that writing in form did not make
one a political conservative, as some had charged, and urged that poets,
esp. student poets, be encouraged to learn and experiment with form.

When Sam Gwynn brought out the new edition of the book, New Expansive
Poetry, he replaced that essay with another old one called "Return to
Metaphor: From Deep Imagist to New Formalist."

Gwynn also dropped the essay by Frederick Turner and Ernst Poppel called
"The Neural Lyre," due to his reservations about the essay's methodology, as
he's described.

Paul Lake



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 26 12:13:47 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:13:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Wackos [WS]
Message-ID: <s2e61b13.092@mail.highland.edu>

Here are just a few "ignorant wackos" who are on record as rejecting or
strongly doubting the Stratfordian claim. Classisists all, I presume:

Ralph Waldo Emerson; Walt Whitman; Mark Twain; Charles Dickens; Henry
James; Sigmund Freud; Supreme Court Justices John Paul Stevens, Harry
Blackmun, and Lewis Powell; Orson Welles; Charlie Chaplin; Sir John
Gielgud; Richard Crinkley, former Director of Educational Programming
for the Folger Shakespeare Library; Mark Rylance, Artistic Director, the
Globe Theatre. 

Kent




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Jul 26 12:19:28 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:19:28 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
Message-ID: <9b.642500f3.3017bc90@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/26/2005 11:06:29 AM Central Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> 
> Gwynn also dropped the essay by Frederick Turner and Ernst Poppel called
> "The Neural Lyre," due to his reservations about the essay's methodology, as
> he's described.
> 
> Paul Lake
No, "The Neural Lyre" is in New Expansive Poetry.

The introduction is online at

http://www.n2hos.com/acm/cult0699.html
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From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Jul 26 12:23:47 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:23:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <004e01c591f7$13ed0fe0$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
	<4bb502f924fa41e87f4b9d6beadb27fa@earthlink.net>
	<004e01c591f7$13ed0fe0$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <16717292.1122395027037.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, July 26, 2005, at 11:32AM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

>
>
>> Taxis are poetry; limos and other cars are prose.
>>
>> Hal
>
>
>Exactly.  Ooops, no, Hal: LIMOS are poetry; taxis and other cars are prose. 
>Or is it green Limos . . . ?
>
>The huge problem with defining metered litrature as poetry and all other 
>forms of literature as prose is that, exactly as above, you make one of your 
>literatures a tiny clump of texts, and the other a vast, discordant range of 
>widely-varying texts.  This does not make taxonomic sense.
>
>--Bob G. 
>
>

While I don't agree that meter is  a sine qua non of poetry, there is no taxonomic principle which forbids that kind of division. Taxonomies are not representations of the essential nature of the relationships between the things classified, but are contingent on the interests and intended uses of the taxonomist. Look at Lakoff and Johnson's "Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things," or consider that strict cladists say birds are reptiles because of their evolutionary history.
  
That said, it seems to me, Bob, that you put too much in the superclass poetry, so much that "poetry" becomes fairly meaningless.

Sometimes I wish I had a better definition than "I know it when I see it" -- but most of the time I just don't give a damn. What do we gain?

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Jul 26 05:23:04 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:23:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
In-Reply-To: <9b.642500f3.3017bc90@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BF0B6B28.99F5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/26/05 11:19 AM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 7/26/2005 11:06:29 AM Central Daylight Time,
> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
>> 
>> Gwynn also dropped the essay by Frederick Turner and Ernst Poppel called
>> "The Neural Lyre," due to his reservations about the essay's methodology, as
>> he's described.
>> 
>> Paul Lake
> 
> No, "The Neural Lyre" is in New Expansive Poetry.
> 
> The introduction is online at
> 
> http://www.n2hos.com/acm/cult0699.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Oops. I should have looked at the table of contents.

Paul
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Tue Jul 26 12:28:29 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:28:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <BF0BCDA4.10CB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BF0BCDA4.10CB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <20050726112829.egq7uga67cocs8og@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

David's points are good. Just to add: self-promotion was not a fever affecting
only Whitman. Boosterism and self-promotion were considered necessary and
widely encouraged in the aftermath of the Revolution. Noah Webster went around
hawking his dictionaries and primers from city to city: despite the novelty of
his verbal invention (a new and AMERICAN dictionary!), he nevertheless felt
that, given the incipient economy, it could not survive or flourish 
without his
considerable help. It was very much a part of the country's social 
fabric at the
time. And quite common among writers, artists, intellectuals, and journalists
ater the Revolution.

The early American novelist Charles Brockden Brown, the satirist Hugh Henry
Brackenridge, both did the same. People were honking and tooting 
themselves all
over the new nation. So by the time Whitman came along, forty, fifty, sixty
years later, it was common practice. And as a journalist the guy well 
knew that
writing pseudonymous puff pieces about one's own work was not only common, it
was, if not encouraged, expected. The English, if they did not invent the
practice, pretty well made an art out of it anyway.

Gabe

Quoting David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>:

> on 7/26/05 9:26 AM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote:
>
>> I think Whitman was the
>> first of a series of prolific American writers who were impatient with the
>> pace and methods of achieving prominence, and whose political agenda
>> within the po-biz was to get well-known on the "No publicity is bad
>> publicity, just spell my name right" theory. Where Whitman was really
>> good was at realizing that the actual poems didn't matter much -- what
>> mattered was to be known as a poet, to be well-known, famous, as a
>> poet, and the next generation of academics would make their
>> reputations explaining why whatever the famous poet wrote is really a
>> breakthrough in poetry, irrespective of the poet's intentions or abilities.
>
> There's plenty of evidence in Whitman's biography that he was a brilliant
> self-promoter, yes.  And in some ways he understood modern media and
> publicity in a deeper fashion than many of his era.
>
> But none of that matters a bit when compared to the achievement of the poems
> (or call 'em prosies, I don't care).  Nor should Whitman's attention to
> promotion be taken (a slippery move here, Marcus!) to mean that "the actual
> poems didn't matter much"--an assertion contradicted on every page of his
> biography, not to mention in *Leaves of Grass* itself.
>
> I Heard You Solemn-Sweet Pipes Of The Organ
>
> I heard you solemn-sweet pipes of the organ as last Sunday morn I passed the
> church,
> Winds of autumn, as I walk'd the woods at dusk I heard your long-stretch'd
> sighs up above so mournful,
> I heard the perfect Italian tenor singing at the opera, I heard the soprano
> in the midst of the quartet singing;
> Heart of my love!  you too I heard murmuring low through one of the wrists
> around my head,
> Heard the pulse of you when all was still ringing little bells last night
> under my ear.
>
>   --Walt Whitman

_________________________
Gabriel Gudding
Department of English
Illinois State University


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail.




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 26 12:33:20 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:33:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
Message-ID: <s2e61f9c.000@mail.highland.edu>

Well, I am glad I asked Marcus my three simple questions. Things are
quite clear now. At a certain point, the discussion comes to a stop, for
there is nothing more to be gained: 

Leaves of Grass is "prose":  Stop.

Also, Marcus, your characterization of me as an "academic"... I teach
at a little community college. They call us "Instructors." I teach six
classes a semester. I teach remedial composition courses and beginning
Spanish. We have a union.

We are, here, to Academics what Class A ballplayers are to Major
Leaguers. 

In other words, I am a minor leaguer; Barrett Watten, for example, is a
Major Leaguer.

Kent




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 26 12:54:14 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:54:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions [correction]
Message-ID: <s2e62480.024@mail.highland.edu>

I misrepresented Marcus's characterization of Leaves of Grass. 

He didn't say it was prose; he said that the metered "sections are
poetry. The non-metered sections are prose."

Well, this is even clearer reason to call a friendly Stop to the
discussion.

Cameradoly,

Kent


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Jul 26 12:56:53 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:56:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fearing Poetry
Message-ID: <BF0BE395.10DE%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I haven't seen too much discussion yet of the fascinating series of volumes
emerging from the Library of America in their American Poets Project.  A
library near me has the complete run, and so far I've sampled the selections
of Williams, Winters, Amy Lowell, Roethke, and Kenneth Fearing.  There are
also selections of Berryman, Whitman, Karl Shapiro, and a number of others
in this developing series.   So far, it's an intriguing mix of canonical
staples with minor or neglected figures like Fearing and Winters.  The
volumes are edited, typically, by poets:  Thom Gunn selects his old
professor Winters, Pinsky does Williams, Wilbur picks Poe, Rich does
Rukeyser, etc.  Harold Bloom selects Whitman, and I haven't gotten up the
nerve to look yet. . . .

Does anyone know what other poets are to be included in the series?  I'd
love to see the prospectus.  My own personal recommendations would include a
Robert Bly edition of Robert Francis (he's really a good editor, whatever
you think of his poems; his editions of Ignatow and Stafford, for instance,
are the best extant).

Pinsky has received a bit of flak for his "conservative" take on Williams, I
know, but as far as I can tell the selections are otherwise unsurprising,
helpful, illuminating.  Gunn's essay on Winters is excellent, and he really
does manage to make a case, there and in his selection, for Winters as a
fine if "minor" voice.  Edward Hirsch's volume of Roethke strikes me as
exemplary, too--a very nice teaching text, too.

For the past week or so I've been greatly savoring Robert Polito's edition
of Kenneth Fearing.  It's nice to think that many small-town libraries plus
practically every Borders and Barnes & Noble in the land now feature this
oddball genius.  Perhaps his work will become better known to a new
generation.  Fearing might serve as poster boy for Minor Poet, sure, but
what does that matter, in the face of such originality, humor, imagination,
and verve?  Those who don't know his work will encounter one of the best
precursors of the Beats and New York School; those who do will probably
admire Polito's strong selection and astute introduction.

I first read Fearing in the marvelous Milton Klonsky anthology *Shake the
Kaleidoscope* back in the early seventies.  I remember being very taken with
"Art Review," which Polito also includes, and which I've typed out below.  I
know that three decades ago I had very little notion that the poem dated
from 1943; one measure of Fearing's strength is how little his poems seem
dated, despite being saturated in period details.

But I'll quote Polito's introduction of that subject:

"[Fearing's poems] carry no whiff of the curio or relic.  If anything, his
poems of the 1920s and 30s impress through their canniness--particularly
regarding the incipient culture industry of film, radio, television,
newspapers, gossip--and prescience.  Fearing insinuated an emerging media
universe poetry still only fitfully acknowledges.  No one would claim that
most contemporary poets exactly inhabit the same psychic or epistemological
landscape as Tennyson; but how rarely does our poetry calculate the
saturation of 'the new and complex harmonies, it seems, of a strange and
still more complex age,' as Fearing described the new media in his poem
'Reception Good.' "
 


Art Review


Recently displayed at the Times Square station, a new Vandyke on the
face-cream girl.
(Artist unknown.  Has promise, but lacks the brilliance shown by the great
masters of the Elevated age)
The latest wood carving in a Whelan telephone booth, title "O Mortal Fools
WA 9-5090," shows two winged hearts above an ace of spades.
(His meaning is not entirely clear, but this man will go far)
A charcoal nude in the rear of Flatbush Ahearn's Bar  & Grill, "Forward to
the Brotherhood of Man," has been boldly conceived in the great tradition.
(We need more, much more of this)
Then there is the chalk portrait, on the walls of a waterfront warehouse, of
a gentleman wearing a derby hat:  "Bleeker Street Mike is a doublecrossing
rat."
(Morbid, but powerful.  Don't miss)

Know then by these presents, know all men by these signs and omens, by these
simple thumbprints on the throat of time,
Know that Pete, the people's artist, is ever watchful,
That Tuxedo Jim has passed among us, and was much displeased, as always,
That George the Ghost (no man has ever seen him) and Billy the Bicep boy
will neither bend nor break,
That Mr. Hearkness of Sunnyside still hopes for the best, and has not lost
his human touch,
That Phantom Phil, the master of them all, has come and gone, but will
return, and all is well.

--Kenneth Fearing.  Kenneth Fearing:  Selected Poems.  Ed. Robert Polito.
NY:  The Library of America (American Poets Project), 2004.





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jul 26 13:05:31 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:05:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] WS
References: <s2e61877.085@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <008801c59204$3b814820$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Can't resist responding to this, which strikes me as more than a bit
> disingenuous.
>
> It is nothing but weird that there is not a single piece of *personal
> biographical evidence* for WS as a writer. Nothing. This is actually
> quite unique among writers of any reputation of the time.

Pricean propaganda.  There is plenty of personal biographical evidence for 
Shakespeare--but Price defines personal evidence as that which cannot be 
used to connect Shakespeare to authorship.  Aside from that, this is just 
the standard wack ploy of ignoring the evidence Shakespeare does unarguably 
have AND the total absence of evidence for anyone else (Price, for instance, 
is unable to say who did write the plays if Shakespeare did not), and 
pushing the absence of some specific kind he allegedly does not have.

> There is no evidence that anyone in London much cared about WS at his
> death, nor for seven years afterward. No eulogies or testimonials? This
> is quite weird indeed, given the reputation of "Shakespeare" at the
> time.

Right.  But there is no evidence that anyone gave a damn about any 
playwright who died at the time of his death except, again, Jonson--and 
maybe one or two others.  No newspapers with obits back then, Kent.

> It is perfectly weird that not a single scrap of evidence exists to
> show that anyone in Stratford thought of Shakespeare as any kind of
> writer, much less as England's great playwright. Annual compilations of
> "Stratford Worthies" don't even mention WS. Shakespeare's son-in-law
> makes no mention of his supposedly great father-in-law in his detailed
> journals. How is this possible?

You're a good robot, Kent.  You're repeating just about all the long-refuted 
chestnuts against Shakespeare.  We have very few documents from Stratford 
about anything.  There's nothing weird about not having some about 
Shakespeare as playwright.  But we do have one: the inscription on his 
monument.

> It is more than somewhat weird that a person who wrote so industriously
> could evidently barely sign his name. This is not only a matter of the
> signatures on his will, which stongly suggest a semi-literate individual
> (the Stratfordians say he was infirm), but of earlier signatures in the
> record. What's more, this is a will which very weirdly bears not a trace
> of evidence that WS had any kind of literary interests. Where are the
> books, for example, in this wealthy and "learned" man's property? Did he
> not have at least a second-best writing desk to bequeath?

Right, Kent.  He could sign his name, which suggests his literacy; hence, as 
a wack, you must now claim, yeah, he could write his name, but look how bad 
he writed it!  Actually, it's pretty sophisticated, and in standard 
secretarial, which looks odd to the ignorant.  Even if it were sloppy, so 
what?  Lots of doctors signatures are much less legible.

> It is quite weird that the plays and sonnets (the latter which are a
> real conundrum for Stratfordians, but which fit rather seamlessly into
> the Oxfordian hypothesis) bear no descernible reference to WS's
> provincial roots. It is likewise weird that the subject matter of the
> plays is so full of specific material that would, by all logic, require
> intense, high education, intimate access to court life, sophisticated
> legal knowledge, fluency (far beyond small Latin and less Greek) in
> classical languages, extensive travel, etc. Of course, the more
> doctrinaire Stratfordians respond to such common-sense inferences with
> cries of "classism."

No, Stratfordians respond with the claim that wacks read what they want into 
the plays and sonnets.  For Oxfordians, the Ouevre is straight from Oxford's 
life--but, wait--for Derbyites, it's straight from Derby's life, and for 
those who think Rutland wrote it, it's straight from his life.  Meanwhile, 
Hamlet is closer to the life of King James than any other noble of the time. 
Conveniently forgotten is that Shakespeare's life is unknown, so we can't 
tell how much it has to do with his works--although we know that the works 
were works of imaginative literature, mostly based on previous writers' 
works, and probably only randomly and insignificantly autobiographical.


> And then they start to toss out terms like wacko, ignorant, and so on,
> betraying, I believe, that they realize deep down there is fundamentally
> nothing to contradict a perfectly plausible and increasingly respected
> hypothesis: that the historically blank man from Stratford was a wily
> businessman-actor who doubled as an Elizabethan Terence on the pay.

And for this 'increasingly respectable hypotheis" you can advance what piece 
of direct evidence?"

> By the way, Bob Grumman claims there was no relation between the
> dedicatees of the First Folio, Oxford's intimate in-laws, Earls Pembroke
> and Montgomery. In fact, Pembroke was Jonson's patron.
>
What I said was, "There is no evidence for Jonson's being in anyone's pay to 
participate in a
cover-up."  So far as I know, I never said there's no relation between 
Pembroke and Montgomery and Jonson.  Of course there is.  There is between 
those two and everyone in Shakespeare's company, including Shakespeare.

--Bob G. 




From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Tue Jul 26 13:08:29 2005
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:08:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
Message-ID: <200507261708.j6QH8gNx031701@mail1.atl.registeredsite.com>

.


Taxis are poetry; limos and other cars are prose.

Hal


No, Hal.  Taxis are prose.  My '90 Porsche Carrera GT is poetry.  And my 
'73 MGB is visual poetry.  
  

Gregory

.




From chris.lott at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 13:14:43 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:14:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Logan's Poem in the New Yorker
In-Reply-To: <200507261546.j6QFkSUR011049@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>
References: <200507261546.j6QFkSUR011049@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05072610145e3e6d3b@mail.gmail.com>

Logan is the Anthony Lane of poetry critics/reviewers. I don't learn
much about the piece in question, but I usually have a damn good time
not learning it...

c



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 13:33:05 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:33:05 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
References: <s2e4d603.041@mail.highland.edu> <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0507261033b4a16ef@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

> Where Whitman was really
> good was at realizing that the actual poems didn't matter much

Do you mean it didn't matter to Whitman or to the scads of readers
that bought his work? I find it hard to believe that the poems didn't
matter much to him given his nearly obsessive and lifelong revising.

c



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jul 26 13:44:19 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:44:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost><4bb502f924fa41e87f4b9d6beadb27fa@earthlink.net><004e01c591f7$13ed0fe0$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<16717292.1122395027037.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <009701c59209$ce45a980$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>>> Taxis are poetry; limos and other cars are prose.
>>>
>>> Hal
>>
>>
>>Exactly.  Ooops, no, Hal: LIMOS are poetry; taxis and other cars are prose. 
>>Or is it green Limos . . . ?
>>
>>The huge problem with defining metered litrature as poetry and all other 
>>forms of literature as prose is that, exactly as above, you make one of your 
>>literatures a tiny clump of texts, and the other a vast, discordant range of 
>>widely-varying texts.  This does not make taxonomic sense.
>>
>>--Bob G. 
>>
>>
> 
> While I don't agree that meter is  a sine qua non of poetry, there is no taxonomic principle which forbids that kind of division. Taxonomies are not representations of the essential nature of the relationships between the things classified, but are contingent on the interests and intended uses of the taxonomist. Look at Lakoff and Johnson's "Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things," or consider that strict cladists say birds are reptiles because of their evolutionary history.

I'm not sure what you're saying, Michael.  I'm talking about intelligent taxonomizing.  An intelligent taxonomy tries to divide sets of objects that are more or less equal.  Not animals and people, but mammals and reptiles, for instance.  Not two kinds of poetry, rhymed and unrhymed, and seven hundred kinds of prose, but a few dozen kinds of poetry, maybe, and a few dozen kinds of prose. 

> That said, it seems to me, Bob, that you put too much in the superclass poetry, so much that "poetry" becomes fairly meaningless.

I can't see that, at all.  I just add freeverse to poetry, and visual poetry (in my not universally-agreed-to definition as a combination of words and graphic elements), which is a form of freeverse, and if it isn't poetry, what is it?

> Sometimes I wish I had a better definition than "I know it when I see it" -- but most of the time I just don't give a damn. What do we gain?

Insight into connections--and differences, facilitation of discussion--the usual values of naming things.
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 26 13:55:53 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:55:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of the self-promoting roughs
Message-ID: <s2e63302.070@mail.highland.edu>

Chris Lott said:

>Do you mean it didn't matter to Whitman or to the scads of readers
that bought his work? I find it hard to believe that the poems didn't
matter much to him given his nearly obsessive and lifelong revising.


Chris, 

Let's get our terms right here. Whitman's texts are not really poems.
They are largely swaths of PROSE, punctuated here and there by
discernably regular feet of... POETRY! 

As a whole, they add up to The Collected Prose and Poetry of Walt
Whitman. 

It would have been so much more *poetic* of Walt to have written what
he wrote in regular meter. Then we could call him a POET.

That tiresome, self-promoting queer...

Kent



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 26 14:00:51 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:00:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman on Gentle Kent
Message-ID: <s2e63417.077@mail.highland.edu>

Today on his blog Ron Silliman has this to say:

"A perfectly fine little poem & one that does indeed remind me of
Darrell, the Actualist poet who drank himself to death far too young,
especially Darrell's work under the French pseudonym Phillipe Mignon,
sort of a kinder, but not gentler, Kent Johnson."

What the hell does *that* mean?


From lattaj at umich.edu  Tue Jul 26 14:37:28 2005
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:37:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman on Gentle Kent
In-Reply-To: <s2e63417.077@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2e63417.077@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0507261431391.28581@arkanoid.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

Kent,

I wondered the same thing. But by the time I got to the end of the 
*piece,* with its stereo salesman-like "this issue--like all of the 
recent ones--is worth ponying up for. While you're at it, get whatever 
back issues you don't already own," I was expecting a tag of "And tell 'em 
Ron sent you!"

The sort of gobbledegook that could be written by a turnip. Blindfolded. 
Canned opinion, canned camaraderie, hack buzz.

John


On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Today on his blog Ron Silliman has this to say:
>
> "A perfectly fine little poem & one that does indeed remind me of
> Darrell, the Actualist poet who drank himself to death far too young,
> especially Darrell's work under the French pseudonym Phillipe Mignon,
> sort of a kinder, but not gentler, Kent Johnson."
>
> What the hell does *that* mean?
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 26 14:41:24 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:41:24 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman on Gentle Kent
References: <s2e63417.077@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <004701c59211$9fed3730$55a83852@ANNY>


Why don't you send over the poem and we can tell you better if there is any 
irony or if it is all praise? (which to my eyes and within the context 
seems)

That you are gentle with only some people, like me _most privileged_ seems 
to be a matter of fact, at least this is what Silliman maybe thinks (re.: 
kinder, but not gentler..).

care, Anny

From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:00 PM


> Today on his blog Ron Silliman has this to say:
>
> "A perfectly fine little poem & one that does indeed remind me of
> Darrell, the Actualist poet who drank himself to death far too young,
> especially Darrell's work under the French pseudonym Phillipe Mignon,
> sort of a kinder, but not gentler, Kent Johnson."
>
> What the hell does *that* mean?
> 



From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 14:45:32 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:45:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <00de01c591f8$17459440$1b042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <42E64C8C.21512.1468CA@localhost>

> > And this demonstrates the falsity of the taxi/limo/other cars analogy you
> > make. The charm of the Parker poem is how it is said, not what it says.
> 
On 26 Jul 2005 at 16:38, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>         {Bloody hell, the Glam Graduade Student nearly raped my guts with a
> rusty fishknife joke over a tight joke across this -- and I have to deal
> with you're turning my cards down at the edges?
>         Not my world sir, not my story.

Luigi and Mario godly build an armadillo.   As the centaur sabotaged a 
bat, the brownies wrought the frogs on the quantum singularity, since 
the glorious, glorious flowers sat down.   The Thee Musketeers spy on 
an elementary school beneficially and perceptively.   The fast, toasty 
axes composed the tad pole.   The depleted, forthright bees royally 
activate an isodecahedron. 

>         http://www.unmediated.org/archives/2005/02/radio_taxi.php
>                 Bite it and see.
> Sometimes, Marcus, you can come across as simply phenomenally *stoopid*.

I've got a company to run in Cleveland, Ohio, USA. Why would you think 
that I would be familiar with a parochial poetry marketing scheme in a 
small town in England? Why call me names over my predictable and 
entirely understandable ignorance about your local customs? 

Marcus






From clitophon at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 26 14:48:36 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] www.theengine.net
In-Reply-To: <004701c59211$9fed3730$55a83852@ANNY>
Message-ID: <20050726184836.8659.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com>

even more new writing from Germany @ www.theengine.net
+ Gerhard Richter in Munich


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 26 15:06:41 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:06:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman on Gentle Kent
In-Reply-To: <s2e63417.077@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2e63417.077@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <a152da88cbc2d799ebc3414dc8d6d791@earthlink.net>


On Jul 26, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Today on his blog Ron Silliman has this to say:
>
> "A perfectly fine little poem & one that does indeed remind me of
> Darrell, the Actualist poet who drank himself to death far too young,
> especially Darrell's work under the French pseudonym Phillipe Mignon,
> sort of a kinder, but not gentler, Kent Johnson."
>
> What the hell does *that* mean?

Phillipe Mignon--an alias for Filet Mignon?

"That" means whatever you're pointing at.

Hal


Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 15:10:55 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:10:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <BF0BCDA4.10CB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
Message-ID: <42E6527F.26773.2BA4F9@localhost>

On 26 Jul 2005 at 11:23, David Graham wrote:
> But none of that matters a bit when compared to the achievement of the poems
> (or call 'em prosies, I don't care).<

Well, if you don't care, why bother to make the claim for poetry in the 
first place? Why not just call the non-metered language "prose" -- bits, 
riffs, rants, views, essays, flash fiction, and the like?

Marcus






From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 26 15:16:34 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:16:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <42E6527F.26773.2BA4F9@localhost>
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost> <42E6527F.26773.2BA4F9@localhost>
Message-ID: <bfe2c2996b5d3361b4fa38d6d5ca33de@earthlink.net>


On Jul 26, 2005, at 3:10 PM, Marcus Bales wrote:

> On 26 Jul 2005 at 11:23, David Graham wrote:
>> But none of that matters a bit when compared to the achievement of 
>> the poems
>> (or call 'em prosies, I don't care).<
>
> Well, if you don't care, why bother to make the claim for poetry in the
> first place? Why not just call the non-metered language "prose" -- 
> bits,
> riffs, rants, views, essays, flash fiction, and the like?
>
> Marcus

As though David's the one who's trying to reform
most of the rest of the literary world, eh?

> Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 15:24:48 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:24:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <004e01c591f7$13ed0fe0$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42E655C0.19727.38592B@localhost>

On 26 Jul 2005 at 11:28, Bob Grumman wrote:
> The huge problem with defining metered litrature as poetry and all other 
> forms of literature as prose is that, exactly as above, you make one of your 
> literatures a tiny clump of texts, and the other a vast, discordant range of 
> widely-varying texts.  This does not make taxonomic sense.

All the evidence shows that you don't have any idea what a taxonomy is 
in the first place, so your opinion about what would make "taxonomic 
sense" is pretty irrelevant. Aside from that, nothing in a taxonomy 
requires that there be any living examples of any given category. An 
extinct animal doesn't lose its place in the taxonomy! 

M







From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 15:31:08 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:31:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <20050726112829.egq7uga67cocs8og@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
References: <BF0BCDA4.10CB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <42E6573C.697.3E258B@localhost>

On 26 Jul 2005 at 11:28, gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: 
> The early American novelist Charles Brockden Brown, the satirist Hugh Henry
> Brackenridge, both did the same. People were honking and tooting 
> themselves all
> over the new nation. So by the time Whitman came along, forty, fifty, sixty
> years later, it was common practice. And as a journalist the guy well 
> knew that
> writing pseudonymous puff pieces about one's own work was not only common, it
> was, if not encouraged, expected. The English, if they did not invent the
> practice, pretty well made an art out of it anyway.

He was the first best American poetry huckster, then. No disagreement  
there. Pound was the next. They understood that one's reputation as a 
poet, that being KNOWN as a poet, was more important to sell books 
and get work such as lecture tours and teaching positions and the like, 
than to write well. They only had to disdain their critics and claim they 
were new, like ... wait a minute! Like Grumman does!

Marcus




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 26 15:43:46 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:43:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent on Gentle Hal
Message-ID: <s2e64c2a.061@mail.highland.edu>

Hal Jonson said:

>"That" means whatever you're pointing at.


O, Hal! Thou RESPONDETH to me! 

Next time you do, look at the subject heading. "That" may help you
determine what is being pointed at.

Kent



From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 15:45:19 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:45:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <s2e61f9c.000@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42E65A8F.32429.4B21D3@localhost>

On 26 Jul 2005 at 11:33, Kent Johnson wrote:
> Well, I am glad I asked Marcus my three simple questions. Things are
> quite clear now. At a certain point, the discussion comes to a stop, for
> there is nothing more to be gained: 
> Leaves of Grass is "prose":  Stop.

This is wrong. Parts of "Leaves of Grass" are prose. Critical reading 
skills need polishing, Kent?

> Also, Marcus, your characterization of me as an "academic"... I teach
> at a little community college. They call us "Instructors." I teach six
> classes a semester. I teach remedial composition courses and beginning
> Spanish. We have a union.

Rah. I design and sell art glass. I don't teach any subject anywhere, 
unless you want to define a salesman as a teacher. Which of us is the 
academic, eh? 

> We are, here, to Academics what Class A ballplayers are to Major
> Leaguers. 

Here's that capitalization ploy again -- as if there were academics and 
Academics. You went to school and inculcated the values and the 
culture of your teachers and went into teaching. You get paid to teach. 
You're an academic. Your membership in a union doesn't make you 
non-academic; unionization or not has nothing to do with academicism.

If you don't want to talk about the issue any more, just say so, or quit 
responding -- but to pretend that this faux humilty, that you're "not an 
academic" is anything more than a plea for someone to say "No, you're 
not, Kent! You're a star! Your name will be remembered with Witter 
Bynner, Arthur Davidson Ficke, James McAuley, and Harold Stewart!", 
is just a red herring. 

Address the issues instead of trolling for compliments.

Marcus













From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 26 15:47:53 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:47:53 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
References: <42E64C8C.21512.1468CA@localhost>
Message-ID: <017901c5921a$ea4ac1e0$1b042cd9@Robin>

Marcus:

> Luigi and Mario godly build an armadillo.   As the centaur sabotaged a
> bat, the brownies wrought the frogs on the quantum singularity, since
> the glorious, glorious flowers sat down.   The Thee Musketeers spy on
> an elementary school beneficially and perceptively.   The fast, toasty
> axes composed the tad pole.   The depleted, forthright bees royally
> activate an isodecahedron.

Actually, that's rather bloody good -- do you want to unpick it?

I can [I think] get some of the allusions, but not all -- the armadillo as
Robert and Elizabeth, nah?

> >         http://www.unmediated.org/archives/2005/02/radio_taxi.php
> >                 Bite it and see.
> > Sometimes, Marcus, you can come across as simply phenomenally *stoopid*.
>
> I've got a company to run in Cleveland, Ohio, USA. Why would you think
> that I would be familiar with a parochial poetry marketing scheme in a
> small town in England?

Hey (he said, pathetically) I really don't have shares in a neo-Situanionist
minimalist art-gallery in Cambrifge.

        [And what does your company produce? -- details, honey-chick!!!]

Parochial is a parochial does -- to be honest, Jude's Dreaming Spires are as
alien and off the wall to me as to you, and I only began to crack it when I
got into a taxi and the driver said, "I had that Jimmy Boyle {+++} in the
back of my cab once."

        ... as lunatic to me as it must be to you.

> Why call me names over my predictable and
> entirely understandable ignorance about your local customs?

Touch?, and Quite Unfair on my part, but why do you assume it's any more
native to me than to you?

Cambridge (as I came to realise) is one of the two places that Glasgow hard
men retire to, so I may have a spin on this that you don't.

    But where's Ohio?

                    Cleveland?

                                Steel town union?

An Apologetic Red Rover

< {+++}

Jimmy Boyle -- a graduate of the Bar-L Special Unit, and not a name you drop
casually.

Especially in Cambridge (UK).

Or in Cleveland (Ohio).

R.  >





From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 26 15:53:53 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:53:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent to Gentle Art Glass Salesman
Message-ID: <s2e64e8d.075@mail.highland.edu>

Dear Marcuse,

you said:

>Here's that capitalization ploy again -- as if there were academics
and 
Academics. You went to school and inculcated the values and the 
culture of your teachers and went into teaching. You get paid to teach.

You're an academic. Your membership in a union doesn't make you 
non-academic; unionization or not has nothing to do with academicism.


I didn't say I wasn't an "academic." I only said I was a *minor league*
academic!

Also, I corrected myself on that Whitman prose thing. I wrote in to say
that your real position is even more delicious than I inititally
thought!

All these exclamation marks!

Kent!



From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 26 15:54:55 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:54:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent on Gentle Hal
In-Reply-To: <s2e64c2a.061@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2e64c2a.061@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <e1a134cd3ca1718a52e35b4eea378de5@earthlink.net>

A mere jest, Kent--a trifle, a bagatelle. Save your
artillery for Marcus.

Hal

On Jul 26, 2005, at 3:43 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Hal Jonson said:
>
>> "That" means whatever you're pointing at.
>
>
> O, Hal! Thou RESPONDETH to me!
>
> Next time you do, look at the subject heading. "That" may help you
> determine what is being pointed at.
>
> Kent
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Jul 26 16:00:09 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:00:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <42E6527F.26773.2BA4F9@localhost>
Message-ID: <BF0C0E88.10F9%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 7/26/05 3:10 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote:

> On 26 Jul 2005 at 11:23, David Graham wrote:
>> But none of that matters a bit when compared to the achievement of the poems
>> (or call 'em prosies, I don't care).<
> 
> Well, if you don't care, why bother to make the claim for poetry in the
> first place? Why not just call the non-metered language "prose" -- bits,
> riffs, rants, views, essays, flash fiction, and the like?
> 
> Marcus
> 

I'm not sure what "claim" I made, exactly, in objecting to your blatant
mischaracterization of Whitman's motives, his seriousness as an artist, and
so forth.  But sure, I'll gladly say it:  Whitman was America's greatest
riffist, rantist, and flash fictioneer.  Like most of the rest of the
literary world, I'm also in the habit of calling him a poet, but, to each
his own.

Now, in the spirit of sweet reason:  how about *you* admit the main point I
was making? --that being an agressive self-promoter is perfectly compatible
with being a great artist.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

on 7/26/05 9:26 AM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote:

> I think Whitman was the
> first of a series of prolific American writers who were impatient with the
> pace and methods of achieving prominence, and whose political agenda
> within the po-biz was to get well-known on the "No publicity is bad
> publicity, just spell my name right" theory. Where Whitman was really
> good was at realizing that the actual poems didn't matter much -- what
> mattered was to be known as a poet, to be well-known, famous, as a
> poet, and the next generation of academics would make their
> reputations explaining why whatever the famous poet wrote is really a
> breakthrough in poetry, irrespective of the poet's intentions or abilities.

There's plenty of evidence in Whitman's biography that he was a brilliant
self-promoter, yes.  And in some ways he understood modern media and
publicity in a deeper fashion than many of his era.

But none of that matters a bit when compared to the achievement of the poems
(or call 'em prosies, I don't care).  Nor should Whitman's attention to
promotion be taken (a slippery move here, Marcus!) to mean that "the actual
poems didn't matter much"--an assertion contradicted on every page of his
biography, not to mention in *Leaves of Grass* itself.





From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 26 16:01:13 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:01:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent to Gentle Hal
Message-ID: <s2e65056.096@mail.highland.edu>

>A mere jest, Kent--a trifle, a bagatelle. Save your artillery for
Marcus.


Hal,

Marcus is already blown to bits in his stained glass Poetry factory.

You know, I love that word, "bagatelle"... 

Kierkegaard was fond of it, too. 

Another phrase I like is brutum fulmen, which means "insensible
thunderbolt."

Kent



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 26 16:06:43 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:06:43 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
References: <42E64C8C.21512.1468CA@localhost>
	<017901c5921a$ea4ac1e0$1b042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <01ab01c5921d$8bd55cd0$1b042cd9@Robin>

Maecus:

> > Luigi and Mario godly build an armadillo.

Just in case it seems I might have missed this, I did get the L&M reference,
at least -- I may be fumb, but I'm not *that* fumb, said the an aspect of
the fen.

        I too have pr0gramed from a corpse-board (ZX80 and Ace)

A Donkey Kung




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Jul 26 16:07:15 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:07:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dickinson as Barnum
Message-ID: <s2e651c3.001@mail.highland.edu>

David Graham said:

>Now, in the spirit of sweet reason:  how about *you* admit the main
point I
was making? --that being an agressive self-promoter is perfectly
compatible
with being a great artist.



by the way, and speaking of the 19th century, has anyone ever proposed
that Dickinson's intense, mysterious privacy was an astoundingly
ambitious and brilliant strategy of self-promotion?



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jul 26 16:43:42 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:43:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dickinson as Barnum
References: <s2e651c3.001@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <00e701c59222$b66eb860$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> by the way, and speaking of the 19th century, has anyone ever proposed
> that Dickinson's intense, mysterious privacy was an astoundingly
> ambitious and brilliant strategy of self-promotion?
>
Kent

Dickinson wrote real poems, so could not have had ignoble motives for 
anything she did, only people composing the allegedly new have those.

--Bob Poundwhit 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 16:44:41 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:44:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <009701c59209$ce45a980$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42E66879.9002.817B66@localhost>

On 26 Jul 2005 at 13:44, Bob Grumman wrote:
> I'm not sure what you're saying, Michael.  I'm talking about intelligent
> taxonomizing.  An intelligent taxonomy tries to divide sets of objects 
that are more or less equal.<

More evidence that you don't have a clue about what a taxonomy is, or 
what its purpose is! A taxonomy has nothing to do with "equality of 
objects", either in quantity or quality. It has to do with common 
characteristics -- and no number or lack of number of members of a set 
has anything to do with whether the set should exist or not.

>  Not animals and people, but mammals and reptiles, for instance.  Not
> two kinds of poetry, rhymed and unrhymed, and seven hundred kinds
> of prose, but a few dozen kinds of poetry, maybe, and a few dozen
> kinds of prose. 

This is just wrong. Why bother to taxonomize the kinds of dinosaurs if 
they are extinct, then? Their numbers are a null set -- how can they be 
important in any way to an "intelligent taxonomy" like yours, eh, Bob? 
What a load of crap. 

 
> I can't see that, at all.  I just add freeverse to poetry, and visual poetry
> (in my not universally-agreed-to definition as a combination of words
> and graphic elements), which is a form of freeverse, and if it isn't
> poetry, what is it?

It's graphics-with-words. Why does it have to be "poetry"? The issue is a 
political one, not a taxonomic one. You want it to be poetry so you can 
claim you're a poet without having to do anything to learn the rhetorical 
skills a poet traditionally has to learn. Whatever it is that you think a 
poet is or represents, you want a piece of it -- but you don't want to have 
anything to do with having to write in meter, or you found it too difficult 
or too constraining, and yet still want to cling to the title "poet". What's 
the deal with that? Why not just say you're an artist who uses pictures 
and words and math symbols? A multi-media artist. A collagist. Why do 
you insist that you have to be called a poet? What do you imagine it is 
that claiming to be a poet gains you in this context?
 
> Insight into connections--and differences, facilitation of discussion--the
> usual values of naming things.

But you only get those values if your notion of how to name things is 
sensible, and yours is not. You are naming things on the basis of 
whimsy and caprice -- you're not trying accurately to observe the real 
phenomena, to find out what they have necessarily in common. You're 
offering us categories of things that have elements merely coincidentally 
in common, and sometimes not even that -- many times it's merely a 
notional category with only notional characteristics assigned to the 
things; and many times it's worse: many times the categories and the 
characteristics are adversarial, not even merely notional, which is bad 
enough.

Marcus






From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 15:57:02 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:57:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0507261033b4a16ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
Message-ID: <42E65D4E.18505.55DB3F@localhost>

> On 7/26/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > Where Whitman was really
> > good was at realizing that the actual poems didn't matter much
> 
On 26 Jul 2005 at 9:33, Chris Lott wrote:
> Do you mean it didn't matter to Whitman or to the scads of readers
> that bought his work? I find it hard to believe that the poems didn't
> matter much to him given his nearly obsessive and lifelong revising.

That's like saying that because soft drink operations keep changing the 
formulae for their products that those products matter to them qua 
products. But they don't -- they are merely products, consumerables, 
measured in units sold. The tinkering is marketing driven where it isn't 
commodity-pricing driven (that is, they change the stuff that goes into 
the products based on buying cheaper commodities, not because it's 
"better" or "better for" consumers). Similarly, Whitman's ability to bring 
out another edition of Leaves of Grass and sell it again was a marketing 
stroke! Every edition a new one, and you have to buy the new one to 
keep up with the changes! New! Improved! Buy now!

And how much easier it is to change things if you don't have to do much 
by way of writing in meter, eh? I don't think there's any dispute that it's 
way easier to revise free than metered language! New! Improved! Buy 
now!

People who make Coca Cola obsessively tinker with their product -- but 
that doesn't make it art, or the product significant.

Marcus





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 26 16:57:02 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:57:02 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Xul Solar
Message-ID: <00d801c59224$92b153e0$55a83852@ANNY>

Xul Solar 

?
88 works online by Oscar Agust?n Alejandro Schulz Solari (Xul Solar), starting from 1915 to 1962. Thanks to Charles Bernstein on the Buffalo for having sent me here, the artwork in definitely impressive, the more because watercolors and temperas (starting with obscure medieval paintings, Otto Dix, German Expressionismus - Die Bruecke, Klee, Juan Miro, Pessoa, Borges). If you get to the Home of the site, you will notice an appreciation by Jorge Luis Borges, and a brief introduction by him here, click on JL Borges on your right. Finally his bio.
? 

posted by Anny Ballardini @ 7/26/2005 10:37:00 PM



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 26 16:58:17 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:58:17 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent to Gentle Art Glass Salesman
References: <s2e64e8d.075@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <01bc01c59224$bfc71360$1b042cd9@Robin>

From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>

> You're an academic. Your membership in a union doesn't make you
> non-academic; unionization or not has nothing to do with academicism.

Not in the UK, honeybunch -- here, the AUT was virtually the *only* union
that that Hag of Grantham didn't manage to split&kill.

Mickey-mouse, but it ended-up as the mouse that roared, since the Grocer's
Daughter had no leverage on us.

        ... or couldn't get any leverage on us.

Think of the Wobblies, in those dear dead gone days ...

        The Red Rover

Actually, I hate talking about this in the abstract, but one reason why the
AUT couldn't be split was that membership ran the whole way up and the only
way to leave was to become a Vice Chancellor.

Same with working the phones, everyone started on the floor, but the Hag
killed that.

Odd that it was easier to break the BT phone union (I was in that too)
rather than the AUT -- neither were closed-shop, but both ran at 99%
membership.

But the AUT survived and phones didn't.

        All so long ago.

David Kirkwood




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 17:15:55 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:15:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <BF0C0E88.10F9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <42E6527F.26773.2BA4F9@localhost>
Message-ID: <42E66FCB.5131.9E1423@localhost>

On 26 Jul 2005 at 16:00, David Graham wrote:
> Now, in the spirit of sweet reason:  how about *you* admit the main point I
> was making? --that being an agressive self-promoter is perfectly compatible
> with being a great artist.

Sure -- no problem. I wasn't criticising him for being a self-promoter; I 
was pointing out that his great discovery in the pobiz was that you don't 
have to write poetry to call yourself a poet, and earn a living in the 
pobiz, one way or another. That he occasionally wrote in metered 
language, and did it very well, too, is to his credit, certainly. But he was 
the one who realized that poetry could be treated like a commodity; that 
there were no qualitative standards, not really; that the notion of "taste" 
that had prevailed so long was nothing more than a cozy illusion; that 
the important thing was the POSE, the important thing is the BEING 
KNOWN, that the important thing was the celebrity of the individual not 
the quality of the work, because (and this is the significant bit; almost 
worth waiting for) there is, was, and could be no such thing as an 
objective measure for the "quality" of poetry.

It was, and is, all subjective. That's Whitman's contribution to poetry, not 
his poems, which are mostly 19th century diary-keeping and journalistic 
prose. He made manifest the subjectivity of the very notion of poetry by 
declaring that his prose stylings were really poems. His work is like that 
of those contemporary genre singers who admit they can't sing, but 
claim to be, instead, "song stylists" or "interpreters", like Elvis Presley 
singing "O sole mio" with new words. It may be popular, but it's not bel 
canto. The difference is that not even Elvis or the pop music industry 
pretended that it was.

But there are free versists who pretend to be poets all the time.

Marcus









From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 16:49:15 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:49:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <01ab01c5921d$8bd55cd0$1b042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <42E6698B.16810.85AA23@localhost>

LOL! I went to a random prose generator website and had that randomly 
generated. There was nothing to "get". I thought what you'd said was 
equally randomly generated, since it made no sense whatever to me. 
Probably more of your expectations that I should know something 
there's really no hope of me knowing because it's a referent to your local 
poetry scene.

Marcus



On 26 Jul 2005 at 21:06, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> Maecus:
> 
> > > Luigi and Mario godly build an armadillo.
> 
> Just in case it seems I might have missed this, I did get the L&M reference,
> at least -- I may be fumb, but I'm not *that* fumb, said the an aspect of
> the fen.
> 
>         I too have pr0gramed from a corpse-board (ZX80 and Ace)
> 
> A Donkey Kung
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 17:29:22 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:29:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent to Gentle Art Glass Salesman
In-Reply-To: <s2e64e8d.075@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42E672F2.18591.AA641E@localhost>

On 26 Jul 2005 at 14:53, Kent Johnson wrote:
> All these exclamation marks!

All these Capital letters.

Marcus



From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 17:29:22 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:29:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <017901c5921a$ea4ac1e0$1b042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <42E672F2.22354.AA6391@localhost>

On 26 Jul 2005 at 20:47, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> Parochial is a parochial does -- to be honest, Jude's Dreaming Spires are as
> alien and off the wall to me as to you, and I only began to crack it when I
> got into a taxi and the driver said, "I had that Jimmy Boyle {+++} in the
> back of my cab once."
>         ... as lunatic to me as it must be to you.... but why do you assume it's any more
> native to me than to you?

Because you're the one making the reference. My expectation has been, 
until now, that you ought to know what you're talking about or referring 
to. 

>     But where's Ohio?
>                     Cleveland?
>                                 Steel town union?

If the map loads correctly for you, it ought to be right in the middle of 
your screen. If not, look around the bottom leftish side of the lower-most 
horizontal lake. Those are the Great Lakes where the St Lawrence river 
rises and goes to the sea through Canada. When you think "Cleveland" 
think "Manchester" but without the championship team.

> Jimmy Boyle -- a graduate of the Bar-L Special Unit, and not a name
> you drop casually.

What's a Bar-L Special Unit?

Marcus




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 26 17:30:31 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:30:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent to Gentle Hal
In-Reply-To: <s2e65056.096@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2e65056.096@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <b80e9d98322a192f90760f48d09c0c00@earthlink.net>

Thank you for "brutum fulmen." I'll try to make good
use of it.

Hal

On Jul 26, 2005, at 4:01 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

>> A mere jest, Kent--a trifle, a bagatelle. Save your artillery for
> Marcus.
>
>
> Hal,
>
> Marcus is already blown to bits in his stained glass Poetry factory.
>
> You know, I love that word, "bagatelle"...
>
> Kierkegaard was fond of it, too.
>
> Another phrase I like is brutum fulmen, which means "insensible
> thunderbolt."
>
> Kent
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 17:33:51 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:33:51 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <42E66FCB.5131.9E1423@localhost>
References: <42E6527F.26773.2BA4F9@localhost> <BF0C0E88.10F9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<42E66FCB.5131.9E1423@localhost>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05072614333975e9d4@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> That's Whitman's contribution to poetry, not
> his poems

False on its face given the demonstrable influence on multiple
generations of later poets. Call the product what you will, his
influence is clear on the matter and style of much later work, not
just the promotion.

c



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 17:31:35 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:31:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <42E65D4E.18505.55DB3F@localhost>
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
	<9b1b9dab0507261033b4a16ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<42E65D4E.18505.55DB3F@localhost>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab050726143169c08144@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > On 7/26/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > > Where Whitman was really
> > > good was at realizing that the actual poems didn't matter much
> >
> On 26 Jul 2005 at 9:33, Chris Lott wrote:
> > Do you mean it didn't matter to Whitman or to the scads of readers
> > that bought his work? I find it hard to believe that the poems didn't
> > matter much to him given his nearly obsessive and lifelong revising.
> 
> That's like saying that because soft drink operations keep changing the
> formulae for their products that those products matter to them qua
> products.

That seems kind of circular. Either you would differentiate tinkering
from revision by the degree of the changes or some characteristic of
the starting product. By any reasonable definition, Whitman's changes
over the years were more than "tinkering"-- thus the volumes written
about them. You don't think Whitman started with anything more
artistic than the formula for coke, so there is nothing of
significance that can come from it.

> out another edition of Leaves of Grass and sell it again was a marketing
> stroke! Every edition a new one, and you have to buy the new one to
> keep up with the changes! New! Improved! Buy now!

This is independent of whether Whitman is poetry or not, and I don't
see any evidence that his changes were market driven. Most
significantly because so many of them WERE NEVER RELEASED. Was he just
trying to find the right formula? And how would he know? And why would
he care since it was not the substance of the revisions that mattered,
just the fact that he had made them?

I don't believe that he went to as much trouble to revise, comment on,
and discuss his work  as he did as purely a marketing ploy. If he did,
he wasn't nearly as wily as you make him out to be.

c



From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 17:51:40 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:51:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <42E672F2.22354.AA6391@localhost>
References: <017901c5921a$ea4ac1e0$1b042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <42E6782C.15329.BED18C@localhost>

Sorry, forgot to include the URL for the map. I've put in the driving 
distance from Cleveland to NY, NY -- about the same as from Glasgow 
to London.

http://maps.google.com/maps

Marcus



On 26 Jul 2005 at 17:29, Marcus Bales wrote:

> On 26 Jul 2005 at 20:47, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> > Parochial is a parochial does -- to be honest, Jude's Dreaming Spires are as
> > alien and off the wall to me as to you, and I only began to crack it when I
> > got into a taxi and the driver said, "I had that Jimmy Boyle {+++} in the
> > back of my cab once."
> >         ... as lunatic to me as it must be to you.... but why do you assume it's any more
> > native to me than to you?
> 
> Because you're the one making the reference. My expectation has been, 
> until now, that you ought to know what you're talking about or referring 
> to. 
> 
> >     But where's Ohio?
> >                     Cleveland?
> >                                 Steel town union?
> 
> If the map loads correctly for you, it ought to be right in the middle of 
> your screen. If not, look around the bottom leftish side of the lower-most 
> horizontal lake. Those are the Great Lakes where the St Lawrence river 
> rises and goes to the sea through Canada. When you think "Cleveland" 
> think "Manchester" but without the championship team.
> 
> > Jimmy Boyle -- a graduate of the Bar-L Special Unit, and not a name
> > you drop casually.
> 
> What's a Bar-L Special Unit?
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 18:05:11 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:05:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab05072614333975e9d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42E66FCB.5131.9E1423@localhost>
Message-ID: <42E67B57.10422.CB2E09@localhost>

> On 7/26/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > That's Whitman's contribution to poetry, not
> > his poems

On 26 Jul 2005 at 13:33, Chris Lott wrote:
> False on its face given the demonstrable influence on multiple
> generations of later poets. Call the product what you will, his
> influence is clear on the matter and style of much later work, not
> just the promotion.

I do call the product what I will: prose. And the effect it had on later 
generations was that lots of other people realized you could call prose 
"poetry" and become a Famous Poet, too. That still doesn't mean his 
"poems" were what had influence. I say that his influence was that all of 
a sudden you didn't have to write poems to be a poet. So since it was 
enormously easier not to write poems and merely claim one did, people 
did the easy thing.

Marcus




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 18:05:10 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:05:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab050726143169c08144@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42E65D4E.18505.55DB3F@localhost>
Message-ID: <42E67B56.22002.CB2D4E@localhost>

> > That's like saying that because soft drink operations keep changing the
> > formulae for their products that those products matter to them qua
> > products.
 
On 26 Jul 2005 at 13:31, Chris Lott wrote:
> That seems kind of circular. Either you would differentiate tinkering
> from revision by the degree of the changes or some characteristic of
> the starting product. By any reasonable definition, Whitman's changes
> over the years were more than "tinkering"-- thus the volumes written
> about them. You don't think Whitman started with anything more
> artistic than the formula for coke, so there is nothing of
> significance that can come from it.<

My point is that Whitman's great insight was that it is Poetry, not poems, 
that is the important commodity. Celebrity, being known as a poet, is 
what one must strive for. The significance of the poems is to make the 
claim that future scholars will see their importance, and that 
contemporaries will not, but it's not important that the poems themselves 
have any particular, or any, quality because quality is irrelevant to a 
subjective endeavor such as poetry. Endless self-promotion is what is 
required for success in poetry, not this or that kind of poem, and 
certainly not good poems, since no one knows what a "good poem" is in 
the first place. The Whitmanian Assertion is that the pose is worth more 
than the poem.

> This is independent of whether Whitman is poetry or not, and I don't
> see any evidence that his changes were market driven. Most
> significantly because so many of them WERE NEVER RELEASED. Was he just
> trying to find the right formula? And how would he know? And why would
> he care since it was not the substance of the revisions that mattered,
> just the fact that he had made them?

He released quite a few 1855 1856 1860 1867 1871-72 1876 1881-82 
1891-92 editions -- enough to make the New! Improved! Buy now! 
argument often throughout his career.

> I don't believe that he went to as much trouble to revise, comment on,
> and discuss his work  as he did as purely a marketing ploy. If he did,
> he wasn't nearly as wily as you make him out to be.<

Purely? No, he liked it, too. But his discovery was that if one were willing 
and able to self-promote endlessly one could be a Famous Poet (how 
about them capitals, Kent?) even if one were writing prose. 

Marcus




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 26 18:04:57 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:04:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
References: <42E6698B.16810.85AA23@localhost>
Message-ID: <01d901c5922e$10180e10$1b042cd9@Robin>

Marcus:

> LOL! I went to a random prose generator website and had that randomly
> generated. There was nothing to "get". I thought what you'd said was
> equally randomly generated, since it made no sense whatever to me.

        Perhaps I'm winning.

> Probably more of your expectations that I should know something
> there's really no hope of me knowing because it's a referent to your local
> poetry scene.

Honest to god, it makes perfect sencs to me, and at that, I'm tempering the
wind to the shorn lamb.

You want footnotes?  So sue me.

            <g>

                        The Red Rover

[But why the hell should you expect me to catch a Cleveland Ohio
backgrounding reference ...  ]

I may be Brit dumb bunny, but at least I know when Walt Kelly began
sending-up Senator Joe in the Pogo strips, which is I imagine a damn sight
better than you try to call me on Bud Neill.

                                    Me parochial, you US-Supemicist.

        Did I say that?  Did I ever?  Would I ever?

                Of  *course* I didn't.

                        <g>

                               NeverEver

RRMcC





From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 18:07:09 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:07:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <42E6782C.15329.BED18C@localhost>
References: <42E672F2.22354.AA6391@localhost>
Message-ID: <42E67BCD.11117.CCFC90@localhost>

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cleveland,+OH+to+New+York,+NY&sp
n=4.835645,10.228271&hl=en

ok, I see I didn't copy the right link. Try the one above. 
M


On 26 Jul 2005 at 17:51, Marcus Bales wrote:

> Sorry, forgot to include the URL for the map. I've put in the driving 
> distance from Cleveland to NY, NY -- about the same as from Glasgow 
> to London.
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> On 26 Jul 2005 at 17:29, Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> > On 26 Jul 2005 at 20:47, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> > > Parochial is a parochial does -- to be honest, Jude's Dreaming Spires are as
> > > alien and off the wall to me as to you, and I only began to crack it when I
> > > got into a taxi and the driver said, "I had that Jimmy Boyle {+++} in the
> > > back of my cab once."
> > >         ... as lunatic to me as it must be to you.... but why do you assume it's any more
> > > native to me than to you?
> > 
> > Because you're the one making the reference. My expectation has been, 
> > until now, that you ought to know what you're talking about or referring 
> > to. 
> > 
> > >     But where's Ohio?
> > >                     Cleveland?
> > >                                 Steel town union?
> > 
> > If the map loads correctly for you, it ought to be right in the middle of 
> > your screen. If not, look around the bottom leftish side of the lower-most 
> > horizontal lake. Those are the Great Lakes where the St Lawrence river 
> > rises and goes to the sea through Canada. When you think "Cleveland" 
> > think "Manchester" but without the championship team.
> > 
> > > Jimmy Boyle -- a graduate of the Bar-L Special Unit, and not a name
> > > you drop casually.
> > 
> > What's a Bar-L Special Unit?
> > 
> > Marcus
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From antrobin at clipper.net  Tue Jul 26 18:18:33 2005
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:18:33 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <42E66FCB.5131.9E1423@localhost>
Message-ID: <016f01c5922f$fcab9a70$3b351c40@Emily>

Maybe it's time that someone brought up the old "poetry" vs. "verse"
distinction.

Last time, as I recall, Marcus attributed greater authority to himself
than Aristotle & Sidney.

What about poetry in languages in which "meter" (by which I mean any
accentual, syllabic, or accentual-syllabic system is employed) is not
used?

Hebrew comes to mind, for example.


Is there no such thing as Hebrew poetry?


tony




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jul 26 18:26:27 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:26:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <016f01c5922f$fcab9a70$3b351c40@Emily>
References: <42E66FCB.5131.9E1423@localhost>
Message-ID: <42E68053.31488.DEA8AB@localhost>

On 26 Jul 2005 at 15:18, Anthony Robinson wrote:
> What about poetry in languages in which "meter" (by which I mean any
> accentual, syllabic, or accentual-syllabic system is employed) is not
> used?
> Hebrew comes to mind, for example.
> Is there no such thing as Hebrew poetry?

Is it really true there is no meter in Hebrew? Let's say that's the case, 
arguendo. Then there is one example of a language that doesn't have 
meter as the basis for the distinction between poetry and prose. But 
what does distinguish Hebrew poetry from Hebrew prose, then?

Marcus



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jul 26 18:31:47 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:31:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Wackos [WS]
References: <s2e61b13.092@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <014601c59231$cfc675f0$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Here are just a few "ignorant wackos" who are on record as rejecting or
> strongly doubting the Stratfordian claim. Classisists all, I presume:
>
> Ralph Waldo Emerson; Walt Whitman; Mark Twain; Charles Dickens; Henry
> James; Sigmund Freud; Supreme Court Justices John Paul Stevens, Harry
> Blackmun, and Lewis Powell; Orson Welles; Charlie Chaplin; Sir John
> Gielgud; Richard Crinkley, former Director of Educational Programming
> for the Folger Shakespeare Library; Mark Rylance, Artistic Director, the
> Globe Theatre.
>
> Kent

Emerson and Dickens did not strongly doubt the Stratford claim.  I don't 
believe Welles did, either.  The others are all what I call psitchotics: 
situational psychotics.  And ignorant of Shakespeare studies, and 
attribution studies, and not renowned for having keenly analytical minds. 
Still, keep a look out for more names of people foolish enough to fall for 
the idiocy of the anti-Stratfordians.  It's your best argument.

--Bob G. 




From chris.lott at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 18:35:22 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:35:22 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <42E67B56.22002.CB2D4E@localhost>
References: <42E65D4E.18505.55DB3F@localhost>
	<9b1b9dab050726143169c08144@mail.gmail.com>
	<42E67B56.22002.CB2D4E@localhost>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0507261535665b627c@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

> He released quite a few 1855 1856 1860 1867 1871-72 1876 1881-82
> 1891-92 editions -- enough to make the New! Improved! Buy now!
> argument often throughout his career.

There are a LOT Of revisions in between those releases.

> Purely? No, he liked it, too. 

In other words, it was about the writing too.

> But his discovery was that if one were willing
> and able to self-promote endlessly one could be a Famous Poet (how
> about them capitals, Kent?) even if one were writing prose.

I don't see the shocking revelation in this-- one can be a Famous
Anything with enough promotion. The real argument is whether Whitman
was more than this. It seems clear to *me* that he was and I'm not
interested in trying to convince you :)

c



From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Jul 26 18:35:47 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:35:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <009701c59209$ce45a980$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <42E601C4.2433.3AF3BC@localhost>
	<4bb502f924fa41e87f4b9d6beadb27fa@earthlink.net>
	<004e01c591f7$13ed0fe0$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<16717292.1122395027037.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<009701c59209$ce45a980$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <6332B0EB-FF21-43C1-9407-A1382818B0E0@mac.com>


On Jul 26, 2005, at 1:44 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> I'm not sure what you're saying, Michael.  I'm talking about  
> intelligent taxonomizing.  An intelligent taxonomy tries to divide  
> sets of objects that are more or less equal.  Not animals and  
> people, but mammals and reptiles, for instance.  Not two kinds of  
> poetry, rhymed and unrhymed, and seven hundred kinds of prose, but  
> a few dozen kinds of poetry, maybe, and a few dozen kinds of prose.
>

Bob, there is an entire phylum, the Placozoa, which has exactly one  
known species, Tricoplax adhearens. And yet it is classified at the  
same level of taxonomy as the Arthropoda, which contains the insects,  
which contain the beetles,  which contain more genera than there are  
species in most other animal orders.  Taxonomies divide things into  
sets according to characteristics chosen to reflect the purpose of  
the taxonomy. Understanding the structure of an ecosystem requires a  
very different taxonomy than does understanding lines of descent.

There are lots of different kinds of poetry and poems, Bob.  Take a  
look at Lewis Turco's Book of Forms in any of its incarnations -- he  
includes (at least some) visual poetries as well , which I wouldn't.  
That DOES NOT MEAN I don't sometimes find such things beautiful. When  
art which happens to use words largely abandons intent to use some  
simlulacrum of ordinary grammar, syntax, and meaning to communicate  
stories, ideas, and feelings (or any combination of them), that art  
doesn't seem to me to be literature at all, much less poetry, though  
it may be good, important, beautiful, moving art. For what it's  
worth, I don't think langpo is literature either. I'm aware how  
weasely that "largely" is.


> > That said, it seems to me, Bob, that you put too much in the  
> superclass poetry, so much that "poetry" becomes fairly meaningless.
> I can't see that, at all.  I just add freeverse to poetry, and  
> visual poetry (in my not universally-agreed-to definition as a  
> combination of words and graphic elements), which is a form of  
> freeverse, and if it isn't poetry, what is it?
>
> > Sometimes I wish I had a better definition than "I know it when I  
> see it" -- but most of the time I just don't give a damn. What do  
> we gain?
> Insight into connections--and differences, facilitation of  
> discussion--the usual values of naming things.

Only if the differences make a difference in the context of interest.



From antrobin at clipper.net  Tue Jul 26 18:37:19 2005
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:37:19 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <42E68053.31488.DEA8AB@localhost>
Message-ID: <017401c59232$9c060ef0$3b351c40@Emily>

But 
what does distinguish Hebrew poetry from Hebrew prose, then?

*

Parallelism and repetition. Also, certain words and peculiar syntactical
quirks are designated as "poetic."  






From chris.lott at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 18:40:29 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:40:29 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Whitman as Barnum
In-Reply-To: <42E67B57.10422.CB2E09@localhost>
References: <42E66FCB.5131.9E1423@localhost>
	<9b1b9dab05072614333975e9d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<42E67B57.10422.CB2E09@localhost>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05072615405ce16a74@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

> I do call the product what I will: prose. And the effect it had on later
> generations was that lots of other people realized you could call prose
> "poetry" and become a Famous Poet, too. 

As the case may be, the idea of what they were writing and how they
were promoting it are two different things. We don't even have to get
into the discussion of whether Whitman's work is poetry or not to look
at the two.

Whitman had a clear and evident effect on writing that came after him
stylistically and in terms of content. Doesn't matter what you want to
call that writing.

And he certainly had an effect in terms of legitimizing the idea of
self-promotion (though it wasn't he alone that worked this magic) and
publication...

It's where you try to tie the two together that the picture isn't
clear to me. Writing as Whitman did, revising as much as he did, and
marketing as he did is hard work. It's much easier to write alone and
wait for people to come to you.

c



From elemenope at icubed.com  Wed Jul 27 05:34:15 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:34:15 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
Message-ID: <a05100300bf0d00992e1a@[204.215.201.166]>


Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.

Essentially, this recurring argument is semantical and its resolution 
depends upon which secondary definition of the word, "Poetry," is 
preferred.  Pick up your American Heritage Dictionary and find:

1. The art or work of a poet.

2.a. Poems regarded as forming a division of literature. b. The 
poetic works of a given author, group, nation or kind.

3. A piece of literature written in meter; verse.

>>>   Mr. Bales is harrumphing, now!  But, not so fast, Bad Boy:

4. Prose that resembles a poem in some respect, as in form or sound.

>>>   Kent snorts: "See?!!"

5. The essence or characteristic quality of a poem.

6. The quality of a poem, as possessed by an object, act, or experience.

[ME poetrie < OFr. < Med.Lat. poetria < Lat. poeta, poet. see POET.]


R i c h a r d  D i l l o n




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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 27 06:57:49 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:57:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
References: <a05100300bf0d00992e1a@[204.215.201.166]>
Message-ID: <001301c5929a$07f5b810$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)But, Richard, what do the utterances of a second-rate dictionary have to do with what poetry is?

--Bob G.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ELEMENOPE Productions 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:34 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)




  Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.


  Essentially, this recurring argument is semantical and its resolution depends upon which secondary definition of the word, "Poetry," is preferred.  Pick up your American Heritage Dictionary and find:


  1. The art or work of a poet.


  2.a. Poems regarded as forming a division of literature. b. The poetic works of a given author, group, nation or kind.


  3. A piece of literature written in meter; verse.


  >>>  Mr. Bales is harrumphing, now!  But, not so fast, Bad Boy:


  4. Prose that resembles a poem in some respect, as in form or sound.


  >>>  Kent snorts: "See?!!"


  5. The essence or characteristic quality of a poem.


  6. The quality of a poem, as possessed by an object, act, or experience.


  [ME poetrie < OFr. < Med.Lat. poetria < Lat. poeta, poet. see POET.]




  R i c h a r d  D i l l o n








-- 


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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Jul 27 07:29:09 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:29:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
In-Reply-To: <001301c5929a$07f5b810$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <a05100300bf0d00992e1a@204.215.201.166>
	<001301c5929a$07f5b810$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05072704296121f84d@mail.gmail.com>

The *American Heritage* is second rate?
 Jeff Newberry

 On 7/27/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 
> 
> But, Richard, what do the utterances of a second-rate dictionary have to 
> do with what poetry is?
>  --Bob G.
> 
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
> *From:* ELEMENOPE Productions <elemenope at icubed.com> 
> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:34 AM
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
> 
>  
>  Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.
> 
>  Essentially, this recurring argument is semantical and its resolution 
> depends upon which secondary definition of the word, "Poetry," is preferred. 
> Pick up your American Heritage Dictionary and find:
> 
>  1. The art or work of a poet.
> 
>  2.a. Poems regarded as forming a division of literature. b. The poetic 
> works of a given author, group, nation or kind.
> 
>  3. A piece of literature written in meter; verse.
> 
>  >>> Mr. Bales is harrumphing, now! But, not so fast, Bad Boy:
> 
>  4. Prose that resembles a poem in some respect, as in form or sound.
> 
>  >>> Kent snorts: "See?!!"
> 
>  5. The essence or characteristic quality of a poem.
> 
>  6. The quality of a poem, as possessed by an object, act, or experience.
> 
>  [ME* poetrie* < OFr. < Med.Lat.* poetria* < Lat.* poeta*, poet. see 
> POET.]
> 
>  
>  R i c h a r d D i l l o n
> 
>  
>  
>  
> -- 
> 
>  ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Jul 27 08:15:11 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:15:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
References: <a05100300bf0d00992e1a@204.215.201.166><001301c5929a$07f5b810$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a05072704296121f84d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <031a01c592a4$d6e4fc30$1b042cd9@Robin>

<<
The American Heritage is second rate?

Jeff Newberry
>>

        Yup.

Actually, there is no such thing as a "first rate" dictionary.

I suppose the closest is the OED, Version Defined, but don't start me on
that rat-bag of lunacy.

                :-(

        A Sad Scottish Harmless Drudge

On 7/27/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

But, Richard, what do the utterances of a second-rate dictionary have to do
with what poetry is?

--Bob G.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: ELEMENOPE Productions
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:34 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)




Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.


Essentially, this recurring argument is semantical and its resolution
depends upon which secondary definition of the word, "Poetry," is preferred.
Pick up your American Heritage Dictionary and find:




From tad at opus40.org  Wed Jul 27 08:56:49 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:56:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
References: <a05100300bf0d00992e1a@204.215.201.166><001301c5929a$07f5b810$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05072704296121f84d@mail.gmail.com>
	<031a01c592a4$d6e4fc30$1b042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <003701c592aa$aa541560$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Is this possible? Aren't "first rate," "second rate" terms of ranking? 
Wouldn't that dictionary, or those dictionaries, which comprise the first 
rank, be first rate?

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "Jeff Newberry" <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>; "NewPoetry: 
ContemporaryPoetry News &amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)


> <<
> The American Heritage is second rate?
>
> Jeff Newberry
>>>
>
>        Yup.
>
> Actually, there is no such thing as a "first rate" dictionary.
>
> I suppose the closest is the OED, Version Defined, but don't start me on
> that rat-bag of lunacy.
>
>                :-(
>
>        A Sad Scottish Harmless Drudge
>
> On 7/27/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> But, Richard, what do the utterances of a second-rate dictionary have to 
> do
> with what poetry is?
>
> --Bob G.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: ELEMENOPE Productions
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:34 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
>
>
>
>
> Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.
>
>
> Essentially, this recurring argument is semantical and its resolution
> depends upon which secondary definition of the word, "Poetry," is 
> preferred.
> Pick up your American Heritage Dictionary and find:
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Jul 27 09:35:07 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:35:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry exists, I think
Message-ID: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu>

Because the essence of any thing is always incommensurate with its
being.


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Jul 27 09:56:05 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:56:05 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
References: <a05100300bf0d00992e1a@204.215.201.166><001301c5929a$07f5b810$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05072704296121f84d@mail.gmail.com><031a01c592a4$d6e4fc30$1b042cd9@Robin>
	<003701c592aa$aa541560$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <032b01c592b2$ef2069c0$1b042cd9@Robin>

> Is this possible? Aren't "first rate," "second rate" terms of ranking?
> Wouldn't that dictionary, or those dictionaries, which comprise the first
> rank, be first rate?

To a large degree, Tad, it's pigs sucking each other's tails.

... which is why whether or not the American Heritage Dictionary is first or
second rate is a semantically null concept.

    Practically ...

Oh, I've  suddenly lost it.

I realise that I'm up shit creek without the proverbial paddle here.

Bite it and see  -- when does the term "gay" locate as specifically
homosexual?

Ask any dictionary and you'll be greeted by the silence of the lambs.

R.

    I HATE DICTIONARIES  !!!




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Jul 27 09:57:16 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:57:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marcus in pieces
Message-ID: <s2e74c8b.097@mail.highland.edu>

By the way, Marcus is still quite whole, as everyone can see. 

All for fun.

Good humor on this list, and that is good.

Kent


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 27 10:15:12 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:15:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
References: <a05100300bf0d00992e1a@204.215.201.166><001301c5929a$07f5b810$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a05072704296121f84d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004001c592b5$9a872090$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  The American Heritage is second rate?

  Jeff Newberry

  I was being polite.

  --Bob
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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Jul 27 10:29:18 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:29:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry exists, I think
In-Reply-To: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <14029451.1122474558548.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, July 27, 2005, at 09:36AM, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

>Because the essence of any thing is always incommensurate with its
>being.
>_______________________________________________

Kent, that don't mean squat.


Poetry exists because we're language-using animals who like stories, rhythm, and pattern -- the last two may not be distinguishable -- it's the literary art which has rhythm (not necessarily meter) as a major organizing principle. 

That definition has consequences. Is The Botanic Garden a poem? If it's literature, yeah, but that's a harder question, perhaps involving intent. If De Rerum Natura is a poem, so is TBG. Is Song of Myself? Certainly. Not so sure about James Tate's stuff, though I love it and it's marvelously funny. They're more like twisted Jack Tales than poems because they completely ignore rhythm. Mathemaku? Not for me, though they're very clever, since they ignore rhythm and I think probably aren't literature at all. Why can't they be something else good?

Do I think everyone should draw the lines where I do? Hell, I draw differently in the morning than in the afternoon. Hard cases make bad law.


Mike S.


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Jul 27 04:37:51 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:37:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Identity?
In-Reply-To: <e5.17e1b116.3016808b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF0CB20F.9A4A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>


Nice job, Al. You beat me.

Paul


On 7/25/05 12:51 PM, "AlMaginnes at aol.com" <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:

> It's a fragment of Oscar Wilde's "Ave Imperatrix." Here's the whole thing,
> according to Bartleby.com:
>  
> Ave Imperatrix
> 
> 
> 
> Set in this stormy Northern sea,
> Queen of these restless fields of tide,
> England! what shall men say of thee,
> Before whose feet the worlds divide?
> 
> The earth, a brittle globe of glass,
> Lies in the hollow of thy hand,
> And through its heart of crystal pass,
> Like shadows through a twilight land,
> 
> The spears of crimson-suited war,
> The long white-crested waves of fight,
> And all the deadly fires which are
> The torches of the lords of Night.
> 
> The yellow leopards, strained and lean,
> The treacherous Russian knows so well,
> With gaping blackened jaws are seen
> Leap through the hail of screaming shell.
> 
> The strong sea-lion of England's wars
> Hath left his sapphire cave of sea,
> To battle with the storm that mars
> The stars of England's chivalry.
> 
> The brazen-throated clarion blows
> Across the Pathan's reedy fen,
> And the high steeps of Indian snows
> Shake to the tread of armed men.
> 
> And many an Afghan chief, who lies
> Beneath his cool pomegranate-trees,
> Clutches his sword in fierce surmise
> When on the mountain-side he sees
> 
> The fleet-foot Marri scout, who comes
> To tell how he hath heard afar
> The measured roll of English drums
> Beat at the gates of Kandahar.
> 
> For southern wind and east wind meet
> Where, girt and crowned by sword and fire,
> England with bare and bloody feet
> Climbs the steep road of wide empire.
> 
> O lonely Himalayan height,
> Grey pillar of the Indian sky,
> Where saw'st thou last in clanging flight
> Our winged dogs of Victory?
> 
> The almond-groves of Samarcand,
> Bokhara, where red lilies blow,
> And Oxus, by whose yellow sand
> The grave white-turbaned merchants go:
> 
> And on from thence to Ispahan,
> The gilded garden of the sun,
> Whence the long dusty caravan
> Brings cedar wood and vermilion;
> 
> And that dread city of Cabool
> Set at the mountain's scarped feet,
> Whose marble tanks are ever full
> With water for the noonday heat:
> 
> Where through the narrow straight Bazaar
> A little maid Circassian
> Is led, a present from the Czar
> Unto some old and bearded Khan, -
> 
> Here have our wild war-eagles flown,
> And flapped wide wings in fiery fight;
> But the sad dove, that sits alone
> In England - she hath no delight.
> 
> In vain the laughing girl will lean
> To greet her love with love-lit eyes:
> Down in some treacherous black ravine,
> Clutching his flag, the dead boy lies.
> 
> And many a moon and sun will see
> The lingering wistful children wait
> To climb upon their father's knee;
> And in each house made desolate
> 
> Pale women who have lost their lord
> Will kiss the relics of the slain -
> Some tarnished epaulette - some sword -
> Poor toys to soothe such anguished pain.
> 
> For not in quiet English fields
> Are these, our brothers, lain to rest,
> Where we might deck their broken shields
> With all the flowers the dead love best.
> 
> For some are by the Delhi walls,
> And many in the Afghan land,
> And many where the Ganges falls
> Through seven mouths of shifting sand.
> 
> And some in Russian waters lie,
> And others in the seas which are
> The portals to the East, or by
> The wind-swept heights of Trafalgar.
> 
> O wandering graves! O restless sleep!
> O silence of the sunless day!
> O still ravine! O stormy deep!
> Give up your prey! Give up your prey!
> 
> And thou whose wounds are never healed,
> Whose weary race is never won,
> O Cromwell's England! must thou yield
> For every inch of ground a son?
> 
> Go! crown with thorns thy gold-crowned head,
> Change thy glad song to song of pain;
> Wind and wild wave have got thy dead,
> And will not yield them back again.
> 
> Wave and wild wind and foreign shore
> Possess the flower of English land -
> Lips that thy lips shall kiss no more,
> Hands that shall never clasp thy hand.
> 
> What profit now that we have bound
> The whole round world with nets of gold,
> If hidden in our heart is found
> The care that groweth never old?
> 
> What profit that our galleys ride,
> Pine-forest-like, on every main?
> Ruin and wreck are at our side,
> Grim warders of the House of Pain.
> 
> Where are the brave, the strong, the fleet?
> Where is our English chivalry?
> Wild grasses are their burial-sheet,
> And sobbing waves their threnody.
> 
> O loved ones lying far away,
> What word of love can dead lips send!
> O wasted dust! O senseless clay!
> Is this the end! is this the end!
> 
> Peace, peace! we wrong the noble dead
> To vex their solemn slumber so;
> Though childless, and with thorn-crowned head,
> Up the steep road must England go,
> 
> Yet when this fiery web is spun,
> Her watchmen shall descry from far
> The young Republic like a sun
> Rise from these crimson seas of war.
> 
> 
> 
>  
> In a message dated 7/25/2005 1:48:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
>> A friend sent me the following lines and challenged me to name the poet. I
>> couldn't. Can anyone identify the poet and poem below (an excerpt, I think,
>> from a longer poem)?
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> And that dread city of Cabool
>> Set at the mountain's scarp?d feet
>> Whose marble tanks are ever full
>> With water for the noonday heat:
>> 
>> Where through the narrow straight Bazaar
>> A little maid Circassian
>> Is led, a present from the Czar
>> Unto some old and bearded khan,?
>> 
>> Here have our wild war-eagles flown,
>> And flapped wide wings in fiery flight;
>> But the sad dove, that sits alone
>> In England?she hath no delight.
>> 
>> In vain the laughing girl will lean
>> To greet her love with love-lit eyes
>> Down in some treacherous black ravine,
>> Clutching his flag, the dead boy lies.
>> 
>> And many a moon and sun will see
>> The lingering wistful children wait
>> To climb upon their father's knee;
>> And in each house made desolate
>> 
>> Pale women who have lost their lord
>> Will kiss the relics of the slain?
>> Some tarnished epaulette?some sword?
>> Poor toys to soothe such anguished pain.
>> 
>> For not in quiet English fields
>> Are these, our brothers, lain to rest,
>> Where we might deck their broken shields
>> With all the flowers the dead love best.
>> 
>> For some are by the Delhi walls,
>> And many in the Afghan land,
>> And many where the Ganges falls
>> Through seven mouths of shifting sand.
>> 
>> And some in Russian waters lie,
>> And others in the seas which are
>> The portals of the East, or by
>> The wind-swept heights of Trafalgar.
>> 
>> O wandering graves!  O restless sleep!
>> O silence of the sunless day!
>> O still ravine!  O stormy deep!
>> Give up your prey!  Give up your prey!
>> 
>> And thou whose wounds are never healed,
>> Whose weary race is never won,
>> O Cromwell's England! must thou yield
>> For every inch of ground a son?
>> 
>> Go!  crown with thorns thy gold-crowned head,
>> Change thy glad song to song of pain;
>> Wind and wild have have got thy dead,
>> And will not yield them back again.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 27 11:46:18 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:46:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Identity?
In-Reply-To: <BF0CB20F.9A4A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BF0CB20F.9A4A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <8ec5410b671738f1f2e66fe3d45a09d8@earthlink.net>

Btw, Paul, before you take any bar bets on identifying
the authors of such lines, just cut & paste them into
a Google box. Works like a charm. Sometimes.

Hal

On Jul 27, 2005, at 4:37 AM, Paul Lake wrote:

>
>  Nice job, Al. You beat me.
>
>  Paul
>
>
>  On 7/25/05 12:51 PM, "AlMaginnes at aol.com" <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> It's a fragment of Oscar Wilde's "Ave Imperatrix." Here's the whole 
>> thing, according to Bartleby.com:
>>  ?
>>  Ave Imperatrix
>>
>>
>>
>>  Set in this stormy Northern sea,
>>  Queen of these restless fields of tide,
>>  England! what shall men say of thee,
>>  Before whose feet the worlds divide?
>>
>>  The earth, a brittle globe of glass,
>>  Lies in the hollow of thy hand,
>>  And through its heart of crystal pass,
>>  Like shadows through a twilight land,
>>
>>  The spears of crimson-suited war,
>>  The long white-crested waves of fight,
>>  And all the deadly fires which are
>>  The torches of the lords of Night.
>>
>>  The yellow leopards, strained and lean,
>>  The treacherous Russian knows so well,
>>  With gaping blackened jaws are seen
>>  Leap through the hail of screaming shell.
>>
>>  The strong sea-lion of England's wars
>>  Hath left his sapphire cave of sea,
>>  To battle with the storm that mars
>>  The stars of England's chivalry.
>>
>>  The brazen-throated clarion blows
>>  Across the Pathan's reedy fen,
>>  And the high steeps of Indian snows
>>  Shake to the tread of armed men.
>>
>>  And many an Afghan chief, who lies
>>  Beneath his cool pomegranate-trees,
>>  Clutches his sword in fierce surmise
>>  When on the mountain-side he sees
>>
>>  The fleet-foot Marri scout, who comes
>>  To tell how he hath heard afar
>>  The measured roll of English drums
>>  Beat at the gates of Kandahar.
>>
>>  For southern wind and east wind meet
>>  Where, girt and crowned by sword and fire,
>>  England with bare and bloody feet
>>  Climbs the steep road of wide empire.
>>
>>  O lonely Himalayan height,
>>  Grey pillar of the Indian sky,
>>  Where saw'st thou last in clanging flight
>>  Our winged dogs of Victory?
>>
>>  The almond-groves of Samarcand,
>>  Bokhara, where red lilies blow,
>>  And Oxus, by whose yellow sand
>>  The grave white-turbaned merchants go:
>>
>>  And on from thence to Ispahan,
>>  The gilded garden of the sun,
>>  Whence the long dusty caravan
>>  Brings cedar wood and vermilion;
>>
>>  And that dread city of Cabool
>>  Set at the mountain's scarped feet,
>>  Whose marble tanks are ever full
>>  With water for the noonday heat:
>>
>>  Where through the narrow straight Bazaar
>>  A little maid Circassian
>>  Is led, a present from the Czar
>>  Unto some old and bearded Khan, -
>>
>>  Here have our wild war-eagles flown,
>>  And flapped wide wings in fiery fight;
>>  But the sad dove, that sits alone
>>  In England - she hath no delight.
>>
>>  In vain the laughing girl will lean
>>  To greet her love with love-lit eyes:
>>  Down in some treacherous black ravine,
>>  Clutching his flag, the dead boy lies.
>>
>>  And many a moon and sun will see
>>  The lingering wistful children wait
>>  To climb upon their father's knee;
>>  And in each house made desolate
>>
>>  Pale women who have lost their lord
>>  Will kiss the relics of the slain -
>>  Some tarnished epaulette - some sword -
>>  Poor toys to soothe such anguished pain.
>>
>>  For not in quiet English fields
>>  Are these, our brothers, lain to rest,
>>  Where we might deck their broken shields
>>  With all the flowers the dead love best.
>>
>>  For some are by the Delhi walls,
>>  And many in the Afghan land,
>>  And many where the Ganges falls
>>  Through seven mouths of shifting sand.
>>
>>  And some in Russian waters lie,
>>  And others in the seas which are
>>  The portals to the East, or by
>>  The wind-swept heights of Trafalgar.
>>
>>  O wandering graves! O restless sleep!
>>  O silence of the sunless day!
>>  O still ravine! O stormy deep!
>>  Give up your prey! Give up your prey!
>>
>>  And thou whose wounds are never healed,
>>  Whose weary race is never won,
>>  O Cromwell's England! must thou yield
>>  For every inch of ground a son?
>>
>>  Go! crown with thorns thy gold-crowned head,
>>  Change thy glad song to song of pain;
>>  Wind and wild wave have got thy dead,
>>  And will not yield them back again.
>>
>>  Wave and wild wind and foreign shore
>>  Possess the flower of English land -
>>  Lips that thy lips shall kiss no more,
>>  Hands that shall never clasp thy hand.
>>
>>  What profit now that we have bound
>>  The whole round world with nets of gold,
>>  If hidden in our heart is found
>>  The care that groweth never old?
>>
>>  What profit that our galleys ride,
>>  Pine-forest-like, on every main?
>>  Ruin and wreck are at our side,
>>  Grim warders of the House of Pain.
>>
>>  Where are the brave, the strong, the fleet?
>>  Where is our English chivalry?
>>  Wild grasses are their burial-sheet,
>>  And sobbing waves their threnody.
>>
>>  O loved ones lying far away,
>>  What word of love can dead lips send!
>>  O wasted dust! O senseless clay!
>>  Is this the end! is this the end!
>>
>>  Peace, peace! we wrong the noble dead
>>  To vex their solemn slumber so;
>>  Though childless, and with thorn-crowned head,
>>  Up the steep road must England go,
>>
>>  Yet when this fiery web is spun,
>>  Her watchmen shall descry from far
>>  The young Republic like a sun
>>  Rise from these crimson seas of war.
>>
>>
>>
>>  ?
>>  In a message dated 7/25/2005 1:48:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
>>> A friend sent me the following lines and challenged me to name the 
>>> poet. I
>>>  couldn't. Can anyone identify the poet and poem below (an excerpt, 
>>> I think,
>>>  from a longer poem)?
>>>
>>>  Paul Lake
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  And that dread city of Cabool
>>>  Set at the mountain's scarp?d feet
>>>  Whose marble tanks are ever full
>>>  With water for the noonday heat:
>>>
>>>  Where through the narrow straight Bazaar
>>>  A little maid Circassian
>>>  Is led, a present from the Czar
>>>  Unto some old and bearded khan,?
>>>
>>>  Here have our wild war-eagles flown,
>>>  And flapped wide wings in fiery flight;
>>>  But the sad dove, that sits alone
>>>  In England?she hath no delight.
>>>
>>>  In vain the laughing girl will lean
>>>  To greet her love with love-lit eyes
>>>  Down in some treacherous black ravine,
>>>  Clutching his flag, the dead boy lies.
>>>
>>>  And many a moon and sun will see
>>>  The lingering wistful children wait
>>>  To climb upon their father's knee;
>>>  And in each house made desolate
>>>
>>>  Pale women who have lost their lord
>>>  Will kiss the relics of the slain?
>>>  Some tarnished epaulette?some sword?
>>>  Poor toys to soothe such anguished pain.
>>>
>>>  For not in quiet English fields
>>>  Are these, our brothers, lain to rest,
>>>  Where we might deck their broken shields
>>>  With all the flowers the dead love best.
>>>
>>>  For some are by the Delhi walls,
>>>  And many in the Afghan land,
>>>  And many where the Ganges falls
>>>  Through seven mouths of shifting sand.
>>>
>>>  And some in Russian waters lie,
>>>  And others in the seas which are
>>>  The portals of the East, or by
>>>  The wind-swept heights of Trafalgar.
>>>
>>>  O wandering graves! ?O restless sleep!
>>>  O silence of the sunless day!
>>>  O still ravine! ?O stormy deep!
>>>  Give up your prey! ?Give up your prey!
>>>
>>>  And thou whose wounds are never healed,
>>>  Whose weary race is never won,
>>>  O Cromwell's England! must thou yield
>>>  For every inch of ground a son?
>>>
>>>  Go! ?crown with thorns thy gold-crowned head,
>>>  Change thy glad song to song of pain;
>>>  Wind and wild have have got thy dead,
>>>  And will not yield them back again.
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 27 11:53:41 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:53:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marcus in pieces
In-Reply-To: <s2e74c8b.097@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2e74c8b.097@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <01a0a086ddd8ffbfac07916524bcf7ce@earthlink.net>

Enough of your ad hominem attacks, Kent.

Hal

On Jul 27, 2005, at 9:57 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> By the way, Marcus is still quite whole, as everyone can see.
>
> All for fun.
>
> Good humor on this list, and that is good.
>
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Jul 27 05:16:06 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 04:16:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Identity?
In-Reply-To: <8ec5410b671738f1f2e66fe3d45a09d8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BF0CBB06.9A54%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/27/05 10:46 AM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Btw, Paul, before you take any bar bets on identifying
> the authors of such lines, just cut & paste them into
> a Google box. Works like a charm. Sometimes.
> 
> Hal
> 
> On Jul 27, 2005, at 4:37 AM, Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>> 
>>  Nice job, Al. You beat me.
>> 
>>  Paul
>> 
>> 
>>  On 7/25/05 12:51 PM, "AlMaginnes at aol.com" <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> It's a fragment of Oscar Wilde's "Ave Imperatrix." Here's the whole
>>> thing, according to Bartleby.com:
>>>  ?
>>>  Ave Imperatrix
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Set in this stormy Northern sea,
>>>  Queen of these restless fields of tide,
>>>  England! what shall men say of thee,
>>>  Before whose feet the worlds divide?
>>> 
>>>  The earth, a brittle globe of glass,
>>>  Lies in the hollow of thy hand,
>>>  And through its heart of crystal pass,
>>>  Like shadows through a twilight land,
>>> 
>>>  The spears of crimson-suited war,
>>>  The long white-crested waves of fight,
>>>  And all the deadly fires which are
>>>  The torches of the lords of Night.
>>> 
>>>  The yellow leopards, strained and lean,
>>>  The treacherous Russian knows so well,
>>>  With gaping blackened jaws are seen
>>>  Leap through the hail of screaming shell.
>>> 
>>>  The strong sea-lion of England's wars
>>>  Hath left his sapphire cave of sea,
>>>  To battle with the storm that mars
>>>  The stars of England's chivalry.
>>> 
>>>  The brazen-throated clarion blows
>>>  Across the Pathan's reedy fen,
>>>  And the high steeps of Indian snows
>>>  Shake to the tread of armed men.
>>> 
>>>  And many an Afghan chief, who lies
>>>  Beneath his cool pomegranate-trees,
>>>  Clutches his sword in fierce surmise
>>>  When on the mountain-side he sees
>>> 
>>>  The fleet-foot Marri scout, who comes
>>>  To tell how he hath heard afar
>>>  The measured roll of English drums
>>>  Beat at the gates of Kandahar.
>>> 
>>>  For southern wind and east wind meet
>>>  Where, girt and crowned by sword and fire,
>>>  England with bare and bloody feet
>>>  Climbs the steep road of wide empire.
>>> 
>>>  O lonely Himalayan height,
>>>  Grey pillar of the Indian sky,
>>>  Where saw'st thou last in clanging flight
>>>  Our winged dogs of Victory?
>>> 
>>>  The almond-groves of Samarcand,
>>>  Bokhara, where red lilies blow,
>>>  And Oxus, by whose yellow sand
>>>  The grave white-turbaned merchants go:
>>> 
>>>  And on from thence to Ispahan,
>>>  The gilded garden of the sun,
>>>  Whence the long dusty caravan
>>>  Brings cedar wood and vermilion;
>>> 
>>>  And that dread city of Cabool
>>>  Set at the mountain's scarped feet,
>>>  Whose marble tanks are ever full
>>>  With water for the noonday heat:
>>> 
>>>  Where through the narrow straight Bazaar
>>>  A little maid Circassian
>>>  Is led, a present from the Czar
>>>  Unto some old and bearded Khan, -
>>> 
>>>  Here have our wild war-eagles flown,
>>>  And flapped wide wings in fiery fight;
>>>  But the sad dove, that sits alone
>>>  In England - she hath no delight.
>>> 
>>>  In vain the laughing girl will lean
>>>  To greet her love with love-lit eyes:
>>>  Down in some treacherous black ravine,
>>>  Clutching his flag, the dead boy lies.
>>> 
>>>  And many a moon and sun will see
>>>  The lingering wistful children wait
>>>  To climb upon their father's knee;
>>>  And in each house made desolate
>>> 
>>>  Pale women who have lost their lord
>>>  Will kiss the relics of the slain -
>>>  Some tarnished epaulette - some sword -
>>>  Poor toys to soothe such anguished pain.
>>> 
>>>  For not in quiet English fields
>>>  Are these, our brothers, lain to rest,
>>>  Where we might deck their broken shields
>>>  With all the flowers the dead love best.
>>> 
>>>  For some are by the Delhi walls,
>>>  And many in the Afghan land,
>>>  And many where the Ganges falls
>>>  Through seven mouths of shifting sand.
>>> 
>>>  And some in Russian waters lie,
>>>  And others in the seas which are
>>>  The portals to the East, or by
>>>  The wind-swept heights of Trafalgar.
>>> 
>>>  O wandering graves! O restless sleep!
>>>  O silence of the sunless day!
>>>  O still ravine! O stormy deep!
>>>  Give up your prey! Give up your prey!
>>> 
>>>  And thou whose wounds are never healed,
>>>  Whose weary race is never won,
>>>  O Cromwell's England! must thou yield
>>>  For every inch of ground a son?
>>> 
>>>  Go! crown with thorns thy gold-crowned head,
>>>  Change thy glad song to song of pain;
>>>  Wind and wild wave have got thy dead,
>>>  And will not yield them back again.
>>> 
>>>  Wave and wild wind and foreign shore
>>>  Possess the flower of English land -
>>>  Lips that thy lips shall kiss no more,
>>>  Hands that shall never clasp thy hand.
>>> 
>>>  What profit now that we have bound
>>>  The whole round world with nets of gold,
>>>  If hidden in our heart is found
>>>  The care that groweth never old?
>>> 
>>>  What profit that our galleys ride,
>>>  Pine-forest-like, on every main?
>>>  Ruin and wreck are at our side,
>>>  Grim warders of the House of Pain.
>>> 
>>>  Where are the brave, the strong, the fleet?
>>>  Where is our English chivalry?
>>>  Wild grasses are their burial-sheet,
>>>  And sobbing waves their threnody.
>>> 
>>>  O loved ones lying far away,
>>>  What word of love can dead lips send!
>>>  O wasted dust! O senseless clay!
>>>  Is this the end! is this the end!
>>> 
>>>  Peace, peace! we wrong the noble dead
>>>  To vex their solemn slumber so;
>>>  Though childless, and with thorn-crowned head,
>>>  Up the steep road must England go,
>>> 
>>>  Yet when this fiery web is spun,
>>>  Her watchmen shall descry from far
>>>  The young Republic like a sun
>>>  Rise from these crimson seas of war.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  ?
>>>  In a message dated 7/25/2005 1:48:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
>>>> A friend sent me the following lines and challenged me to name the
>>>> poet. I
>>>>  couldn't. Can anyone identify the poet and poem below (an excerpt,
>>>> I think,
>>>>  from a longer poem)?
>>>> 
>>>>  Paul Lake
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  And that dread city of Cabool
>>>>  Set at the mountain's scarp?d feet
>>>>  Whose marble tanks are ever full
>>>>  With water for the noonday heat:
>>>> 
>>>>  Where through the narrow straight Bazaar
>>>>  A little maid Circassian
>>>>  Is led, a present from the Czar
>>>>  Unto some old and bearded khan,?
>>>> 
>>>>  Here have our wild war-eagles flown,
>>>>  And flapped wide wings in fiery flight;
>>>>  But the sad dove, that sits alone
>>>>  In England?she hath no delight.
>>>> 
>>>>  In vain the laughing girl will lean
>>>>  To greet her love with love-lit eyes
>>>>  Down in some treacherous black ravine,
>>>>  Clutching his flag, the dead boy lies.
>>>> 
>>>>  And many a moon and sun will see
>>>>  The lingering wistful children wait
>>>>  To climb upon their father's knee;
>>>>  And in each house made desolate
>>>> 
>>>>  Pale women who have lost their lord
>>>>  Will kiss the relics of the slain?
>>>>  Some tarnished epaulette?some sword?
>>>>  Poor toys to soothe such anguished pain.
>>>> 
>>>>  For not in quiet English fields
>>>>  Are these, our brothers, lain to rest,
>>>>  Where we might deck their broken shields
>>>>  With all the flowers the dead love best.
>>>> 
>>>>  For some are by the Delhi walls,
>>>>  And many in the Afghan land,
>>>>  And many where the Ganges falls
>>>>  Through seven mouths of shifting sand.
>>>> 
>>>>  And some in Russian waters lie,
>>>>  And others in the seas which are
>>>>  The portals of the East, or by
>>>>  The wind-swept heights of Trafalgar.
>>>> 
>>>>  O wandering graves! ?O restless sleep!
>>>>  O silence of the sunless day!
>>>>  O still ravine! ?O stormy deep!
>>>>  Give up your prey! ?Give up your prey!
>>>> 
>>>>  And thou whose wounds are never healed,
>>>>  Whose weary race is never won,
>>>>  O Cromwell's England! must thou yield
>>>>  For every inch of ground a son?
>>>> 
>>>>  Go! ?crown with thorns thy gold-crowned head,
>>>>  Change thy glad song to song of pain;
>>>>  Wind and wild have have got thy dead,
>>>>  And will not yield them back again.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>> 
>>  _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
> Hal           Serving the tristate area.
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Shouda tried that myself. Oscar, it is! Thanks for the help.

Paul




From uche at ogbuji.net  Wed Jul 27 12:21:32 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:21:32 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B3B@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B3B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <1122481293.31001.12.camel@malatesta>

On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 15:26 -0400, William Knott wrote:
> 
> Interesting reminder, out of the blue, of that very strange essay in
> _Expansive Poetry_.  Did they remove it form later editions?  I didn't
> realize mine was a first ed.  Anyway, I recall reading a few of the
> passages that struck me as the crux of their arguments a few times over,
> and not being able to penetrate the fog.
> 
> Just what *were* they on about, anyway?
> 
> ...as I remember it, Paul Lake's essay

I was not speaking of an essay by Paul Lake, just to be clear.

> (and i don't have 
> access to the book, so please forgive me if i'm 
> remembering or attributing this wrongly ) tried to 
> scientifically prove that meter and rhyme 
> are more "natural" than free verse . . . (maybe it was
> a kind of New Age attempt to promote meter-rhyme 
> as being *healthy* for us.....)

Meter and verse is not natural, of course, but neither is almost all
communication that we would call poetry.

> which made me wonder what Baudelaire would have 
> thought of such a theory...
> surely for the Symbolist, meter and rhyme are 
> preferable only BECAUSE they're unnatural, because 
> they're perverse. . .  
> for Baudelaire and the Symbolists, "artifice was superior to 
> nature" ( Michael Hamburger, 'The Truth of Poetry', p.268)....
> it's the artificiality of meter rhyme and other formal
> devices that appeals to the antithetical soul, no?

Whatever.  Here are some other things that are unnatural:

* Wearing clothes
* Temperature-controlled shelter
* Non-reproductive sex
* The scientific method
* Placing the welfare of post-pubescent children above that of adults

Meter and rhyme are in good company, by your lights, it seems.

(And free verse proponents accuse formalists of silly arguments).

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Jul 27 12:31:53 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:31:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
In-Reply-To: <1122481293.31001.12.camel@malatesta>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B3B@mail.emerson.edu>
	<1122481293.31001.12.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <13582160.1122481913443.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, July 27, 2005, at 12:25PM, Uche Ogbuji <uche at ogbuji.net> wrote:


>Whatever.  Here are some other things that are unnatural:
>
>* Wearing clothes
>* Temperature-controlled shelter
>* Non-reproductive sex
>* The scientific method
>* Placing the welfare of post-pubescent children above that of adults
>
>Meter and rhyme are in good company, by your lights, it seems.
>
>(And free verse proponents accuse formalists of silly arguments).
>
>-- 

All those things, with the (possible) exception of the scientific method, are completely natural. All but the scientific method are found in species other than our own.

Mike S

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From uche at ogbuji.net  Wed Jul 27 12:36:15 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:36:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
In-Reply-To: <13582160.1122481913443.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B3B@mail.emerson.edu>
	<1122481293.31001.12.camel@malatesta>
	<13582160.1122481913443.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1122482175.31001.16.camel@malatesta>

On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 12:31 -0400, Mike Snider wrote:
>  On Wednesday, July 27, 2005, at 12:25PM, Uche Ogbuji <uche at ogbuji.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> >Whatever.  Here are some other things that are unnatural:
> >
> >* Wearing clothes
> >* Temperature-controlled shelter
> >* Non-reproductive sex
> >* The scientific method
> >* Placing the welfare of post-pubescent children above that of adults
> >
> >Meter and rhyme are in good company, by your lights, it seems.
> >
> >(And free verse proponents accuse formalists of silly arguments).
> >
> >-- 
> 
> All those things, with the (possible) exception of the scientific method, are completely natural. All but the scientific method are found in species other than our own.

"are found in species other than our own" != "natural".

Do you think it would be natural for a human to breath in water through
gills?

And more to the point, do you find free verse in species other than
humans?

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 27 12:37:53 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:37:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
In-Reply-To: <1122481293.31001.12.camel@malatesta>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B3B@mail.emerson.edu>
	<1122481293.31001.12.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <cbf89e5bbd3e33462117248ba9a671eb@earthlink.net>


On Jul 27, 2005, at 12:21 PM, Uche Ogbuji wrote:

> Meter and verse is not natural, of course, but neither is almost all
> communication that we would call poetry.
>
>> which made me wonder what Baudelaire would have
>> thought of such a theory...
>> surely for the Symbolist, meter and rhyme are
>> preferable only BECAUSE they're unnatural, because
>> they're perverse. . .
>> for Baudelaire and the Symbolists, "artifice was superior to
>> nature" ( Michael Hamburger, 'The Truth of Poetry', p.268)....
>> it's the artificiality of meter rhyme and other formal
>> devices that appeals to the antithetical soul, no?
>
> Whatever.  Here are some other things that are unnatural:
>
> * Wearing clothes
> * Temperature-controlled shelter
> * Non-reproductive sex
> * The scientific method
> * Placing the welfare of post-pubescent children above that of adults

Yet none of these exists outside of nature.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul 27 13:28:43 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:28:43 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] soon
Message-ID: <00f901c592d0$a38f0840$53d63152@ANNY>

on these stages (translating the press release):

 "Physical Interrogation Techniques" by the Swedish composer and artist Carl Michael Von Hausswolff is the extension of the -direct and stentorian, apathetic and harsh- voice of the protagonist that recites texts taken from the instruction manual "Physical Interrogation Techniques" by Richard W. Krousher, inspired by the CIA interrogation rules to gain information through torture. Von Hausswolff brings the show within the public and through the mixing of frequencies, he shows the theatrical efficacy of politics that has as an object the "truth".





_________________________________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Wed Jul 27 14:00:28 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:00:28 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
In-Reply-To: <200507271242.j6RCgFRe002231@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200507271242.j6RCgFRe002231@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bf0d6c305787@[204.215.201.73]>

The American Heritage Dictionary is one of the finest dictionaries 
known to this multiminded metaplastic creature, homo sap.  Bob 
Grumman, you know better than to run the answer into the ground of 
the entire problem which Mr. Bales has burdened us, and which I most 
generously presented and that I will now repeat:

At 08:42 AM -0400 7/27/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:

>  Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.

The excellent lexigraphical entries edited by Dr. Geoffrey Nunberg, 
Stanford University, Ms. Laura Chesterton of the Chesterton lineage, 
Dr. David M. Yerkes, Professor of English, Columbia University, and, 
in particular, David Jost, who I quote from speedRead memory:

>This dictionary replaces the off-the-top-of-the-head tautological 
>method practised by our competitor, Noah Webster.  Instead, we have 
>used a structured database that has revolutionized the way we 
>produce dictionaries which has access by way of daisy chained Cray 
>computers to massive databases of text that we have searched for new 
>words and meanings and for citational evidence as old words were 
>revisted. For instance, the word, "I."  I just pushed a button and 
>my trusty Cray went way back there into Indo-European and, then, I 
>pushed another button and, "Nerd," came up, coined only sometime 
>within the past several parsecs of human existence.  All entries in 
>the Dictionary are found in a single, convenient A-Z list,  Our 
>usage program under the guidance of the noted linguist Geoffrey 
>Nunberg discusses carefully chosen usage points to help the reader 
>understand just why Richard (b.a., W&L) Dillon's definition of the 
>word, "Poetry," is now the standard against which all others will be 
>measured.

that followed albeit redundantly in the original post merely 
conclusively substantiate my superb definition of this subject which 
is of vital concern to us all: "Poetry."

Go on, mock, or say, "Aristole or Wittgenstein said that first," but 
know that you can't be sure you're right in trying to pull the rug 
out from under me.  Know, also, that by trying to yank out my answer 
to your question (simply because it was I who came up with it, 
first), you pull out this Escherean rug from under yourself, as well. 
I'm innured to the querelous foppery of these bizarre commonalities, 
I'm gonna tell you right now, too.

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n



>Message: 26
>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:34:15 +0800
>From: ELEMENOPE Productions <elemenope at icubed.com>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
>
>
>Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.
>
>Essentially, this recurring argument is semantical and its resolution
>depends upon which secondary definition of the word, "Poetry," is
>preferred.  Pick up your American Heritage Dictionary and find:
>
>1. The art or work of a poet.
>
>2.a. Poems regarded as forming a division of literature. b. The
>poetic works of a given author, group, nation or kind.
>
>3. A piece of literature written in meter; verse.
>
>>>>    Mr. Bales is harrumphing, now!  But, not so fast, Bad Boy:
>
>4. Prose that resembles a poem in some respect, as in form or sound.
>
>>>>    Kent snorts: "See?!!"
>
>5. The essence or characteristic quality of a poem.
>
>6. The quality of a poem, as possessed by an object, act, or experience.
>
>[ME poetrie < OFr. < Med.Lat. poetria < Lat. poeta, poet. see POET.]
>
>R i c h a r d  D i l l o n
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 27
>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:57:49 -0400
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
>"
>
>Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)But, Richard, what do 
>the utterances of a second-rate dictionary have to do with what 
>poetry is?
>
>--Bob G.
>
>
>
>
>
>Message: 28
>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:29:09 -0400
>From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>The *American Heritage* is second rate?
>  Jeff Newberry
>
>
>
>
>Message: 30
>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:56:49 -0400
>From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
>Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny
>	Ballardini)
>
>
>Is this possible? Aren't "first rate," "second rate" terms of ranking?
>Wouldn't that dictionary, or those dictionaries, which comprise the first
>rank, be first rate?
>
>Tad Richards
>www.opus40.org
>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>

-- 
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 27 14:06:44 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:06:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
In-Reply-To: <a05100300bf0d6c305787@[204.215.201.73]>
References: <200507271242.j6RCgFRe002231@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100300bf0d6c305787@[204.215.201.73]>
Message-ID: <7ba4ee2bfe60446ed179fca9a26ef458@earthlink.net>


On Jul 27, 2005, at 2:00 PM, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:

>> ?Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.

Ah, but so is New Jersey!

Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 27 15:48:46 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:48:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
References: <200507271242.j6RCgFRe002231@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100300bf0d6c305787@[204.215.201.73]>
Message-ID: <007601c592e4$33d93980$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

[New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny BallardiSorry, Richard, but I'm with Robin on dictionaries.  They have many good uses, but the provision of definitions of the highest value is not one of them.  I find the definitions the American Heritage gives for "poetry" close to worthless, however I may agree with parts of a few, but I'm biased against usage dictionaries, preferring dictionaries, if such exist, that define words intelligently.

--Bob G.
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Jul 27 17:01:19 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:01:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
References: <200507271242.j6RCgFRe002231@wiz.cath.vt.edu><a05100300bf0d6c305787@[204.215.201.73]>
	<007601c592e4$33d93980$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00bb01c592ee$56a25c80$1b042cd9@Robin>

[New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardi<<
Sorry, Richard, but I'm with Robin on dictionaries.  They have many good
uses, but the provision of definitions of the highest value is not one of
them.
--Bob G.
>>

            YEAH!!!

<<
I find the definitions the American Heritage gives for "poetry" close to
worthless, however I may agree with parts of a few, but I'm biased against
usage dictionaries, preferring dictionaries, if such exist, that define
words intelligently.
>>

 +Keywords+ Raymond Williams.

Da Mad Pedan/

{when it comes to dictianariews,,

Oh hell, reach for your 12 bore up an under.

The Cisco Kid



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Jul 27 22:37:54 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:37:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Fearing Poetry
In-Reply-To: <BF0BE395.10DE%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BF0DBD42.1139%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Another poem by Kenneth Fearing--


Green Light

Bought at the drug store, very cheap; and later pawned.
After a while, heard on the street; seen in the park.
Familiar, but not quite recognized.
Followed and taken home and slept with.
Traded or sold. Or lost.

Bought again at the corner drug store,
At the green light, at the patient's demand, at nine o'clock.
Re-read and memorized and rewound.
Found unsuitable.
Smashed, put together, and pawned.

Heard on the street, seen in a dream, heard in the park, seen by the
light of day;
Carefully observed one night by the secret agent of the Greek Hydraulic
Mining Commission,  in plain clothes, off-duty.
The agent, in broken English, took copious notes. Which he lost.
Strange, and yet not extraordinary.
Sad, but true.

True, or exaggerated, or true;
As it is true that people laugh and the sparrows fly;
As it is exaggerated that the people change, and the sea stays;
As it is that the people go;
As the lights go on and it is night and it is serious, and just the same;
As some one dies and it is serious, and the same;
As a girl knows and it is small, and true;
As the corner hardware clerk might know and it is true, and pointless;
As an old man knows and it is grotesque, but true;
As the people laugh, as the people think, as the people change,
It is serious and the same, exaggerated or true.

Bought at the drug store down the street
Where the wind blows and the motors go by and it is always night, or day;
Bought to use as a last resort,
Bought to impress the statuary in the park.
Bought at a cut rate, at the green light, at nine o'clock.
Borrowed or bought. To look well. To ennoble. To prevent disease. To
entertain. To have.
Broken or sold. Or given away. Or used and forgotten. Or lost.



on 7/26/05 12:56 PM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote:

I haven't seen too much discussion yet of the fascinating series of volumes
emerging from the Library of America in their American Poets Project.  A
library near me has the complete run, and so far I've sampled the selections
of Williams, Winters, Amy Lowell, Roethke, and Kenneth Fearing.  There are
also selections of Berryman, Whitman, Karl Shapiro, and a number of others
in this developing series.   So far, it's an intriguing mix of canonical
staples with minor or neglected figures like Fearing and Winters.  The
volumes are edited, typically, by poets:  Thom Gunn selects his old
professor Winters, Pinsky does Williams, Wilbur picks Poe, Rich does
Rukeyser, etc.  Harold Bloom selects Whitman, and I haven't gotten up the
nerve to look yet. . . .

Does anyone know what other poets are to be included in the series?  I'd
love to see the prospectus.  My own personal recommendations would include a
Robert Bly edition of Robert Francis (he's really a good editor, whatever
you think of his poems; his editions of Ignatow and Stafford, for instance,
are the best extant).

Pinsky has received a bit of flak for his "conservative" take on Williams, I
know, but as far as I can tell the selections are otherwise unsurprising,
helpful, illuminating.  Gunn's essay on Winters is excellent, and he really
does manage to make a case, there and in his selection, for Winters as a
fine if "minor" voice.  Edward Hirsch's volume of Roethke strikes me as
exemplary, too--a very nice teaching text, too.

For the past week or so I've been greatly savoring Robert Polito's edition
of Kenneth Fearing.  It's nice to think that many small-town libraries plus
practically every Borders and Barnes & Noble in the land now feature this
oddball genius.  Perhaps his work will become better known to a new
generation.  Fearing might serve as poster boy for Minor Poet, sure, but
what does that matter, in the face of such originality, humor, imagination,
and verve?  Those who don't know his work will encounter one of the best
precursors of the Beats and New York School; those who do will probably
admire Polito's strong selection and astute introduction.

I first read Fearing in the marvelous Milton Klonsky anthology *Shake the
Kaleidoscope* back in the early seventies.  I remember being very taken with
"Art Review," which Polito also includes, and which I've typed out below.  I
know that three decades ago I had very little notion that the poem dated
from 1943; one measure of Fearing's strength is how little his poems seem
dated, despite being saturated in period details.

But I'll quote Polito's introduction of that subject:

"[Fearing's poems] carry no whiff of the curio or relic.  If anything, his
poems of the 1920s and 30s impress through their canniness--particularly
regarding the incipient culture industry of film, radio, television,
newspapers, gossip--and prescience.  Fearing insinuated an emerging media
universe poetry still only fitfully acknowledges.  No one would claim that
most contemporary poets exactly inhabit the same psychic or epistemological
landscape as Tennyson; but how rarely does our poetry calculate the
saturation of 'the new and complex harmonies, it seems, of a strange and
still more complex age,' as Fearing described the new media in his poem
'Reception Good.' "



Art Review


Recently displayed at the Times Square station, a new Vandyke on the
face-cream girl.
(Artist unknown.  Has promise, but lacks the brilliance shown by the great
masters of the Elevated age)
The latest wood carving in a Whelan telephone booth, title "O Mortal Fools
WA 9-5090," shows two winged hearts above an ace of spades.
(His meaning is not entirely clear, but this man will go far)
A charcoal nude in the rear of Flatbush Ahearn's Bar  & Grill, "Forward to
the Brotherhood of Man," has been boldly conceived in the great tradition.
(We need more, much more of this)
Then there is the chalk portrait, on the walls of a waterfront warehouse, of
a gentleman wearing a derby hat:  "Bleeker Street Mike is a doublecrossing
rat."
(Morbid, but powerful.  Don't miss)

Know then by these presents, know all men by these signs and omens, by these
simple thumbprints on the throat of time,
Know that Pete, the people's artist, is ever watchful,
That Tuxedo Jim has passed among us, and was much displeased, as always,
That George the Ghost (no man has ever seen him) and Billy the Bicep boy
will neither bend nor break,
That Mr. Hearkness of Sunnyside still hopes for the best, and has not lost
his human touch,
That Phantom Phil, the master of them all, has come and gone, but will
return, and all is well.

--Kenneth Fearing.  Kenneth Fearing:  Selected Poems.  Ed. Robert Polito.
NY:  The Library of America (American Poets Project), 2004.




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Jul 27 21:37:49 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:37:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
In-Reply-To: <007601c592e4$33d93980$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42E7FEAD.25491.27151F8@localhost>

Oh my god. I agree with Bob Grumman!

Marcus


On 27 Jul 2005 at 15:48, Bob Grumman wrote:

> [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny BallardiSorry, Richard, but I'm with Robin on dictionaries.  They have many good uses, but the provision of definitions of the highest value is not one of them.  I find the definitions the American Heritage gives for "poetry" close to worthless, however I may agree with parts of a few, but I'm biased against usage dictionaries, preferring dictionaries, if such exist, that define words intelligently.
> 
> --Bob G.




From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 28 06:53:38 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:53:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry exists, I think
In-Reply-To: <14029451.1122474558548.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>

Kent Johnson wrote:
> >Because the essence of any thing is always incommensurate with its
> >being.

> Poetry exists because we're language-using animals who like stories,
> rhythm, and pattern -- the last two may not be distinguishable -- it's the
> literary art which has rhythm (not necessarily meter) as a major
> organizing principle. 

Rhythm is too broad a category because both metered and unmetered 
language have rhythm. The Gettysburg Address has rhythm; a well-
constructed joke has rhythm; conversation has rhythm; and none of 
them are poems except in the meaningless sense that "anything that 
anyone says is a poem is a poem". 
 
> ... definition has consequences. Is The Botanic Garden a poem? If
> it's literature, yeah, but that's a harder question, perhaps involving
> intent. If De Rerum Natura is a poem, so is TBG. Is Song of Myself?
> Certainly. Not so sure about James Tate's stuff, though I love it and
> it's marvelously funny. They're more like twisted Jack Tales than
> poems because they completely ignore rhythm. Mathemaku? Not for
> me, though they're very clever, since they ignore rhythm and I think
> probably aren't literature at all. Why can't they be something else
> good?

There are prose rhythms and there are poetic meters. To assert that 
something is not poetic because it has no rhythm is to say that prose is  
"writing that lacks rhythm" -- and that's clearly not a reasonable 
assertion. To say that any writing that has rhythm is poetry means 
enormous swathes of prose are really poetry. Rhythm is too broad a 
category with which to make a reasonable distinction.

Elemenope wrote:
> Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.<

This is just the argument that anything is poetry again, if someone says 
it is, slightly disguised by the implicit notion of "if it's good enough".
In this view the right is reserved to assert that it is some fine quality of 
work that makes poetry out of the raw material of language use -- which 
means, really, that it's anything anyone says it is, so long as they're also 
willing to say that any poetry is good, and anything good enough is 
poetry, and deliberately leaving aside any definition of "good".

That just puts off the question of "What is poetry" to the question "What 
is good enough to be poetry?" by saying "Poetry is anything that is good 
enough". Well, that's like saying "Anything is poetry that a poet says is 
poetry".  That merely puts the question off to "Who is a poet?" It's futile 
to say "A poet is someone who writes poetry" because that's uselessly 
circular. 

Poetry is not a quantity of excellence; the notion of poetry is not a matter 
of sufficiently good quality of writing -- and it can't be without an 
enormous system of hedgings and hemmings and hawings kludgily 
working around what each school or tradition or generation of writers 
(and what a nightmare of knotted wriggling worms the very notion of 
"school" or "tradition" or "generation" of writers themselves present!) 
have said they were trying to do, or are latterly judged to have done, or 
not done as the self-interest of the next scholar may have it.

The notion of Poetry As Excellence is fraught (I don't get to use "fraught" 
very often -- who does? -- so I didn't want to miss this chance) with so 
many other problems that one may be forgiven for suspecting that it is 
the opportunity to dive into that morass and happily splash about for a 
career that is so attractive. Whatever else an academic wants, it's not 
elegant simplicity of explanation -- no, there's no use for that where one 
must publish or perish! And how ironic that the very system within which 
he or she works demands that he or she produce large quantities of 
work instead of a small amount of the excellence that he or she asserts 
is the essence of the thing!

The simple distinction between poetry as metered language and prose 
as unmetered language is useful if any distinction between prose and 
poetry is useful. If you hold that there's no reason to distinguish between 
poetry and prose, then why bother to claim to be a poet, or to recognize 
anyone as a poet? In that case the point of the claim or the recognition 
can be only -- and merely -- political. It's not a recognition of excellence 
of work at all (because there's no distinction between poetry and prose, 
how can the claim of "It's poetry" be a recognition of anything?), it's a 
recognition, or a claim, of a political status, a mere title.

But what is that title worth, that it is so fiercely fought over? Why do so 
many people who clearly write not only outside the tradition of metered 
language, but deliberately, determinedly outside the tradition of metered 
language insist that they are "poets"? Isn't that like lying and cheating 
and insisting one is honest?

Marcus







From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Jul 28 11:13:17 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:13:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
Message-ID: <BF0E6E4A.1145%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I learn from the Writers Almanac today that it is John Ashbery's birthday.
And that he shares it with Gerard Manley Hopkins.

A little surprising to find Garrison Keillor featuring Ashbery, no?



Meaningful Love 



What the bad news was
became apparent too late
for us to do anything good about it.

I was offered no urgent dreaming,
didn't need a name or anything.
Everything was  taken care of.

In the medium-size city of my awareness
voles are building colossi.
The blue room is over there.

He put out no feelers.
The day was all as one to him.
Some days he never leaves his room
and those are the best days,
by far.

There were morose gardens farther down the slope,
anthills that looked like they belonged there.
The sausages were undercooked,
the wine too cold, the bread molten.
Who said to bring sweaters?
The climate's not that dependable.

The Atlantic crawled slowly to the left
pinning a message on the unbound golden hair of sleeping maidens,
a ruse for next time,

where fire and water are rampant in the streets,
the gate closed?no visitors today
or any evident heartbeat.

I go rid of the book of fairy tales,
pawned my old car, bought a ticket to the funhouse,
found myself back here at six o'clock,
pondering "possible side effects."

There was no harm in loving then,
no certain good either. But love was loving servants
or bosses. No straight road issuing from it.
Leaves around the door are penciled losses.
Twenty years to fix it.
Asters bloom one way or another.

 

--John Ashbery.  Where Shall I Wander, 2005.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Jul 28 11:28:24 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:28:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry exists, I think
In-Reply-To: <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
Message-ID: <3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, July 28, 2005, at 08:27AM, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

>Kent Johnson wrote:
>> >Because the essence of any thing is always incommensurate with its
>> >being.
>
>> Poetry exists because we're language-using animals who like stories,
>> rhythm, and pattern -- the last two may not be distinguishable -- it's the
>> literary art which has rhythm (not necessarily meter) as a major
>> organizing principle. 
>
>Rhythm is too broad a category because both metered and unmetered 
>language have rhythm. The Gettysburg Address has rhythm; a well-
>constructed joke has rhythm; conversation has rhythm; and none of 
>them are poems except in the meaningless sense that "anything that 
>anyone says is a poem is a poem". 
> 
>> ... definition has consequences. Is The Botanic Garden a poem? If
>> it's literature, yeah, but that's a harder question, perhaps involving
>> intent. If De Rerum Natura is a poem, so is TBG. Is Song of Myself?
>> Certainly. Not so sure about James Tate's stuff, though I love it and
>> it's marvelously funny. They're more like twisted Jack Tales than
>> poems because they completely ignore rhythm. Mathemaku? Not for
>> me, though they're very clever, since they ignore rhythm and I think
>> probably aren't literature at all. Why can't they be something else
>> good?
>
>There are prose rhythms and there are poetic meters. To assert that 
>something is not poetic because it has no rhythm is to say that prose is  
>"writing that lacks rhythm" -- and that's clearly not a reasonable 
>assertion. To say that any writing that has rhythm is poetry means 
>enormous swathes of prose are really poetry. Rhythm is too broad a 
>category with which to make a reasonable distinction.
>
>Elemenope wrote:
>> Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.<
>
>This is just the argument that anything is poetry again, if someone says 
>it is, slightly disguised by the implicit notion of "if it's good enough".
>In this view the right is reserved to assert that it is some fine quality of 
>work that makes poetry out of the raw material of language use -- which 
>means, really, that it's anything anyone says it is, so long as they're also 
>willing to say that any poetry is good, and anything good enough is 
>poetry, and deliberately leaving aside any definition of "good".
>
>That just puts off the question of "What is poetry" to the question "What 
>is good enough to be poetry?" by saying "Poetry is anything that is good 
>enough". Well, that's like saying "Anything is poetry that a poet says is 
>poetry".  That merely puts the question off to "Who is a poet?" It's futile 
>to say "A poet is someone who writes poetry" because that's uselessly 
>circular. 
>
>Poetry is not a quantity of excellence; the notion of poetry is not a matter 
>of sufficiently good quality of writing -- and it can't be without an 
>enormous system of hedgings and hemmings and hawings kludgily 
>working around what each school or tradition or generation of writers 
>(and what a nightmare of knotted wriggling worms the very notion of 
>"school" or "tradition" or "generation" of writers themselves present!) 
>have said they were trying to do, or are latterly judged to have done, or 
>not done as the self-interest of the next scholar may have it.
>
>The notion of Poetry As Excellence is fraught (I don't get to use "fraught" 
>very often -- who does? -- so I didn't want to miss this chance) with so 
>many other problems that one may be forgiven for suspecting that it is 
>the opportunity to dive into that morass and happily splash about for a 
>career that is so attractive. Whatever else an academic wants, it's not 
>elegant simplicity of explanation -- no, there's no use for that where one 
>must publish or perish! And how ironic that the very system within which 
>he or she works demands that he or she produce large quantities of 
>work instead of a small amount of the excellence that he or she asserts 
>is the essence of the thing!
>
>The simple distinction between poetry as metered language and prose 
>as unmetered language is useful if any distinction between prose and 
>poetry is useful. If you hold that there's no reason to distinguish between 
>poetry and prose, then why bother to claim to be a poet, or to recognize 
>anyone as a poet? In that case the point of the claim or the recognition 
>can be only -- and merely -- political. It's not a recognition of excellence 
>of work at all (because there's no distinction between poetry and prose, 
>how can the claim of "It's poetry" be a recognition of anything?), it's a 
>recognition, or a claim, of a political status, a mere title.
>
>But what is that title worth, that it is so fiercely fought over? Why do so 
>many people who clearly write not only outside the tradition of metered 
>language, but deliberately, determinedly outside the tradition of metered 
>language insist that they are "poets"? Isn't that like lying and cheating 
>and insisting one is honest?
>
>Marcus
>
>
>


Marcus, prose certainly has rhythm(s). But thythm is not structural in prose; it isn't an organizing formal element. That, rather than meter, is what, for me, makes a particular work of literature a poem. Though it's not as bright a line as yours (the world is messy), it still avoids making "poetry" an honorific. And I agree with you that that honorific sense is why some artists wish to call some things "poetry" that clearly are not. 

Mike S.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Thu Jul 28 11:43:34 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:43:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
	<3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

I wonder if I could inquire of the Philosophers on this list to tell me why
people exist. Why do People, Love, Children, and Leaves exist please?

I would like to know. I will wait with keen attention for your words.

Thanks.


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul 28 12:06:22 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:06:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
References: <BF0E6E4A.1145%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <005101c5938e$4cd4f0f0$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Little J. A.I learn from the Writers Almanac today that it is John Ashbery's birthday.  And that he shares it with Gerard Manley Hopkins.

A little surprising to find Garrison Keillor featuring Ashbery, no?

My goodness, yes.  Ashbery is so obscure.

--Bob G.
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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 12:26:15 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:26:15 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
In-Reply-To: <005101c5938e$4cd4f0f0$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BF0E6E4A.1145%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<005101c5938e$4cd4f0f0$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05072809263ecc1be2@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/28/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> A little surprising to find Garrison Keillor featuring Ashbery, no?
>> 
> My goodness, yes.  Ashbery is so obscure. 

Irrelevant, really, since this isn't a note about Ashbery, but about
Keillor. Unless you are saying that it's no surprise to you that
Keillor would feature an Ashbery poem?

c



From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 28 12:56:57 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:56:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry exists, I think
In-Reply-To: <3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
Message-ID: <42E8D619.15519.9C7BEF@localhost>

On 28 Jul 2005 at 11:28, Mike Snider wrote:
> ... prose certainly has rhythm(s). But rhythm is not structural in
> prose; it isn't an organizing formal element. That, rather than meter, is
> what, for me, makes a particular work of literature a poem. Though it's
> not as bright a line as yours (the world is messy), it still avoids making
> "poetry" an honorific. And I agree with you that that honorific sense is
> why some artists wish to call some things "poetry" that clearly are not. 

The difference between "rhythm that is not an organizing formal 
element" and "rhythm that is an organizing formal element" seems to me 
to be the difference between "rhythm" and "meter". I'm willing to talk 
about the many kinds of meter, and not confine the notion of meter to 
only a few sorts of accentual-syllabic, of course, but to broaden the 
notion of "meter" out to "rhythm" is to distort the category into 
meaninglessness. 

If there is a reason to distinguish between poetry and prose (and I 
understand that there are people who hold that there is no reason to do 
so -- though I think the grounds they give for that view are shaky to non-
existent) then the reason must do some reasonable work for us, 
conceptually. 

Perhaps it's more tactful to speak of "rhythm" than it is to speak of 
"meter", and one can soothe the ruffled feathers of the post-avant-
gardists who have made a short tradition of revolting against the longer 
tradition that they now know only academically. 

Has it ever occurred to you that people who say they love everything 
from Shakespeare through Tennyson all the way to Wilbur, that they 
love that stuff, that they really do love and respect it, can't really do so if 
they're serious about "breaking the pentameter", if they're really sincere 
about eliminating not only meter but rhythm, and all the other rhetorical 
tools of the language, from their own work? 

Does it ever seem very odd to you that Bob Grumman and Kent 
Johnson, for example, even know who Shakespeare IS? Wouldn't you 
imagine an actual,  a real, revolutionary in the field of poetry, would be 
saying "Shakeswho? Fuck him. He's OLD. Burn his crap, man -- listen to 
THIS" But they don't. They purport to love the works that their own work 
shows they must disdain in order to do their own work. 

It's no more possible to hold that Shakespeare's work is important and 
significant to an individual who really thinks that mathemaku are 
important and significant than it is to hold that there is no god but Allah 
and Mithra is his name.

I don't say it's not possible to appreciate different kinds of art -- I say 
that i's not possible to hold that Shakespeare through Tennyson to 
Wilbur is brilliant, wonderful stuff and still do work the fundamental 
tenets of which are that everything from Shakespeare through Tennyson 
to Wilbur is worthless. It's not simply silly -- it's political hypocrisy, a 
determined attempt to have it both ways, to get jobs in academia 
teaching how to appreciate the very things that one, as an artist, most 
disparages in the very principles and creation of one's own art.

Marcus










From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 28 13:32:22 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:32:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry exists, I think
In-Reply-To: <42E8D619.15519.9C7BEF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20050728173222.50220.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com>

isn?t poetry just what people happen to say poetry is
at any particular time?  When I was at school they
(the academic establishment) tried to force feed us
Shakespeare but this is not where it was at for 15 yr
old boys and girls at that time.  Where it was at was
clearly the Punk movement.   Shakespeare was just
ridiculed as pomposity.  Now Shakespeare seemed to us
to be pompous because it is written in English that is
by this time quite old.  That doesn?t mean its bad, of
course, but it seemed extremely pompous to us.  We
wanted to find history books and instead of learning
about the 3rd Reich, draw massive penises on Himmler
and Eichmann, still a legitimate comment in my view
except (that they probably didn?t have - any balls).  
I don?t think that anyone gives a darn about your
comments below which is not to distract from their
validity.  But your comments sound like the ragings of
Polonious in ?Hamlet?.  Which is not to say that they
may not be sensitive, erudite statements but what is
the connection of this to poetry?
--- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

> On 28 Jul 2005 at 11:28, Mike Snider wrote:
> > ... prose certainly has rhythm(s). But rhythm is
> not structural in
> > prose; it isn't an organizing formal element.
> That, rather than meter, is
> > what, for me, makes a particular work of
> literature a poem. Though it's
> > not as bright a line as yours (the world is
> messy), it still avoids making
> > "poetry" an honorific. And I agree with you that
> that honorific sense is
> > why some artists wish to call some things "poetry"
> that clearly are not. 
> 
> The difference between "rhythm that is not an
> organizing formal 
> element" and "rhythm that is an organizing formal
> element" seems to me 
> to be the difference between "rhythm" and "meter".
> I'm willing to talk 
> about the many kinds of meter, and not confine the
> notion of meter to 
> only a few sorts of accentual-syllabic, of course,
> but to broaden the 
> notion of "meter" out to "rhythm" is to distort the
> category into 
> meaninglessness. 
> 
> If there is a reason to distinguish between poetry
> and prose (and I 
> understand that there are people who hold that there
> is no reason to do 
> so -- though I think the grounds they give for that
> view are shaky to non-
> existent) then the reason must do some reasonable
> work for us, 
> conceptually. 
> 
> Perhaps it's more tactful to speak of "rhythm" than
> it is to speak of 
> "meter", and one can soothe the ruffled feathers of
> the post-avant-
> gardists who have made a short tradition of
> revolting against the longer 
> tradition that they now know only academically. 
> 
> Has it ever occurred to you that people who say they
> love everything 
> from Shakespeare through Tennyson all the way to
> Wilbur, that they 
> love that stuff, that they really do love and
> respect it, can't really do so if 
> they're serious about "breaking the pentameter", if
> they're really sincere 
> about eliminating not only meter but rhythm, and all
> the other rhetorical 
> tools of the language, from their own work? 
> 
> Does it ever seem very odd to you that Bob Grumman
> and Kent 
> Johnson, for example, even know who Shakespeare IS?
> Wouldn't you 
> imagine an actual,  a real, revolutionary in the
> field of poetry, would be 
> saying "Shakeswho? Fuck him. He's OLD. Burn his
> crap, man -- listen to 
> THIS" But they don't. They purport to love the works
> that their own work 
> shows they must disdain in order to do their own
> work. 
> 
> It's no more possible to hold that Shakespeare's
> work is important and 
> significant to an individual who really thinks that
> mathemaku are 
> important and significant than it is to hold that
> there is no god but Allah 
> and Mithra is his name.
> 
> I don't say it's not possible to appreciate
> different kinds of art -- I say 
> that i's not possible to hold that Shakespeare
> through Tennyson to 
> Wilbur is brilliant, wonderful stuff and still do
> work the fundamental 
> tenets of which are that everything from Shakespeare
> through Tennyson 
> to Wilbur is worthless. It's not simply silly --
> it's political hypocrisy, a 
> determined attempt to have it both ways, to get jobs
> in academia 
> teaching how to appreciate the very things that one,
> as an artist, most 
> disparages in the very principles and creation of
> one's own art.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. 
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Jul 28 13:34:18 2005
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:34:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
	<3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <20050728123406.H49404@kpaul.spinweb.net>

I say Yahweh... ;)

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:

> I wonder if I could inquire of the Philosophers on this list to tell me why
> people exist. Why do People, Love, Children, and Leaves exist please?
>
> I would like to know. I will wait with keen attention for your words.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Jul 28 13:41:57 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:41:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
	<3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, July 28, 2005, at 11:44AM, <gmguddi at ilstu.edu> wrote:

>I wonder if I could inquire of the Philosophers on this list to tell me why
>people exist. Why do People, Love, Children, and Leaves exist please?
>
>I would like to know. I will wait with keen attention for your words.
>
>Thanks.
>
>

IANAP -- but on the chance that you're really interested in what people think on the matter, the only answer that's ever made sense for me is radical contingency. Everything that can happen does, given enough time and space, and once replicators get going, Darwinian selection wildly accelerates exploration of some possibilities in particular environments while closing off others. And I think Suzanne Langer was right to claim that an animal ALWAYS does everything it can, though I'd broaden that from animals to all living things.

Mike S

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul 28 14:03:19 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:03:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
References: <BF0E6E4A.1145%grahamd@ripon.edu><005101c5938e$4cd4f0f0$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab05072809263ecc1be2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006601c5939e$a310f300$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Irrelevant, really, since this isn't a note about Ashbery, but about
> Keillor. Unless you are saying that it's no surprise to you that
> Keillor would feature an Ashbery poem?

> c

I'm saying it doesn't surprise me that Keillor would find a way to show that 
he wasn't totally out of it by featuring a poem by one of the two very 
prominent poets Wishberia is named after.  No, I don't think Keillor went 
out of his way to do this; I think someone probably showed him a poem by 
Ashbery he thought Keillor would like and Keillor liked it.  At that point, 
because it was a poem by Ashbery, the famous poet and a poet noted for being 
"experimental," Keillor featured it.

Now that I've just read the poem, I admit to being surprised Keillor 
featured that particular poem.  I find it silly and hermetic, and have 
trouble believing Keillor could have any idea what it's about--but maybe he 
does.  I have no trouble believing he would feature something by Ashbery. 
Come back to me when he features something by John M. Bennett, Scott Helmes, 
P. Inman or Ron Silliman.

--Bob G. 




From chris.lott at gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 14:10:27 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:10:27 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
In-Reply-To: <006601c5939e$a310f300$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BF0E6E4A.1145%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<005101c5938e$4cd4f0f0$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab05072809263ecc1be2@mail.gmail.com>
	<006601c5939e$a310f300$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab050728111095d562e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/28/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> I'm saying it doesn't surprise me 

You must know Keillor quite well. Based on what I know of him, he
doesn't spend much time going out of his way to try to show that he is
hip. If anything, it's the other way around (thus anthologies like
"Good Poems"). Which only makes it more surprising.

You're too cynical for your own good, finding it impossible to believe
that someone might actually just choose poems based on liking what
they hear. You always seem to have to assume there is-- at least in
addition-- some nefarious motive (a troubling symptom of the
"post-avant" martyr-coimplex). In this case, I highly doubt it--
there's no real motivation to do so.

> I think someone probably showed him a poem by
> Ashbery he thought Keillor would like and Keillor liked it.  

You probably had it right at this point, but then you kept on talking
to feed your conspiracy theory.

c



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 28 14:28:19 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:28:19 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu>
	<42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost><3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
	<11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY>

People exist because otherwise we would be too happy, and being too happy we would get too bored and would not realize we could have been that happy if people did not exist. Love exists as much as Hate, Children do to continue our species, Leaves are most important.

It is because of Leaves that we exist.

The greatest mistake of scientists is of not having understood it. They have concentrated their efforts elsewhere and have continuously failed, which is quite logical seen the premises. People have thus set up several towers of babel: politics, medicine, engineering, biology, chemistry which will inevitably collapse. But maybe this is a sine qua non, otherwise they would not be People, but Leaves.

Best wishes,
Anny Ballardini 


 
From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 7:41 PM



> 
> On Thursday, July 28, 2005, at 11:44AM, <gmguddi at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> 
>>I wonder if I could inquire of the Philosophers on this list to tell me why
>>people exist. Why do People, Love, Children, and Leaves exist please?
>>
>>I would like to know. I will wait with keen attention for your words.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>
> 
> IANAP -- but on the chance that you're really interested in what people think on the matter, the only answer that's ever made sense for me is radical contingency. Everything that can happen does, given enough time and space, and once replicators get going, Darwinian selection wildly accelerates exploration of some possibilities in particular environments while closing off others. And I think Suzanne Langer was right to claim that an animal ALWAYS does everything it can, though I'd broaden that from animals to all living things.
> 
> Mike S
> 
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul 28 15:40:12 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:40:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
References: <BF0E6E4A.1145%grahamd@ripon.edu><005101c5938e$4cd4f0f0$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab05072809263ecc1be2@mail.gmail.com><006601c5939e$a310f300$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab050728111095d562e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009e01c593ac$2be01190$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

No conspiracy theory.  No special knowledge of Keillor except that he's a 
Philistine and proud of it.  I can't know how he operates but it makes sense 
that he's like most mediocrities, and was swayed by Ashbery's name-value in 
selecting his poem.  Show me some other poem as goofy as Ashbery's that he's 
featured?  That he hasn't, so far as I know, although there are dozens 
around, show he's name-conscious.  Or, his literary helpers are.  The 
conspiracy is, of course, unconscious--caused by the inability of stasguards 
to go outside the certified.  Keillor will go outside certified names but 
not outside certified kinds of poems.  And a poem's certification is not 
enough for him if it's not conventional by the standards of 1950, usually, 
although in this case it was--because of its author's name, I believe.

--Bob G. 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 28 15:29:58 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:29:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
In-Reply-To: <006601c5939e$a310f300$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42E8F9F6.17139.4E94D2@localhost>

On 28 Jul 2005 at 14:03, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Now that I've just read the poem, I admit to being surprised Keillor 
> featured that particular poem.  I find it silly and hermetic, and have 
> trouble believing Keillor could have any idea what it's about--but maybe he 
> does. <

It's "silly and hermetic" but at the same time too deep for Keillor? Or for 
anyone who isn't Bob Grumman? Or an avant gardist?

Marcus





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul 28 18:23:33 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:23:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
References: <42E8F9F6.17139.4E94D2@localhost>
Message-ID: <00c301c593c2$fde99790$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 28 Jul 2005 at 14:03, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> Now that I've just read the poem, I admit to being surprised Keillor 
>> featured that particular poem.  I find it silly and hermetic, and have 
>> trouble believing Keillor could have any idea what it's about--but maybe he 
>> does. <
> 
> It's "silly and hermetic" but at the same time too deep for Keillor? Or for 
> anyone who isn't Bob Grumman? Or an avant gardist?
> 
> Marcus

Marcus won't believe me, but I meant to note in the post he's replying to that I didn't get the poem, myself.  I don't think that's because it was "too deep," but because it was too jump-cut, for me.  It's not an avant garde poem, although I'm sure Keillor thinks it is.  

While responding to Marcus (and I don't know whether I'm over my limit on this thread or not, but will risk this post, anyway), let me say that I genuinely can't understand why he thinks I have to scorn Shakespeare.

He says (elsewhere), "Wouldn't you imagine an actual,  a real, revolutionary in the field of poetry, would be saying 'Shakeswho? Fuck him. He's OLD. Burn his crap, man -- listen to THIS.'"  

You know, I really don't know how to answer this.  It seems too insane to get hold of.  I do think I'm doing something different.  I don't think I'm particularly revolutionary.  But If I am, how am I contradicting my revolutionary intent by acknowledging the greatness of the works that led to mine?  I suppose maybe if I were stupid enough to claim that my mathemaku did everything Shakespeare's poems did AND MORE, it would follow that I thought his works superfluous.  But I'm just doing works I hope will do as much for their . . . engagents (I'm still trying for a term that is more general than "reader") as Shakespeare's poems--in a different way.  Why can't someone sincerely want to do that, and what makes it necessarily a  foolish desire?

"But they don't. They purport to love the works that their own work shows they must disdain in order to do their own work," Marcus goes on to say.

As a creative artist, I do prefer not to copy the work of my predecessors.  How does that make me a disdainer of it?  Is everyone who makes other kinds of formal lyric poems than Shakespearean sonnets disdaining Shakespeare?  How does a belief that a combination of a mathematical operation with a verbal image can work as poetry come off as a belief that not doing this cannot work as poetry?

"It's no more possible," Marcus continues, "to hold that Shakespeare's work is important and significant to an individual who really thinks that mathemaku are important and significant than it is to hold that there is no god but Allah and Mithra is his name."

Whew.  No insult to me there.  Nonetheless, if negative comments bothered me, I think I might be bothered.  Or, would be if the statement made any kind of sense.  I believe even David Graham could defend me on this one.  

"I don't say it's not possible to appreciate different kinds of art -- I say that it's not possible to hold that Shakespeare through Tennyson to Wilbur is brilliant, wonderful stuff and still do work the fundamental tenets of which are that everything from Shakespeare through Tennyson 
to Wilbur is worthless."

Dan Schneider recently posted that I was "an old psychotic who believes that poems must contain visual elements because words alone are no longer enough," or something close to that.  (He did call me both psychotic and old.)  I asked him to show where I said anything that could lead anyone sane to believe that.  He ignored the request.  All I can say is that I believe there are lots of ways to make first-rate poems.  Shakespeare had a few ways, I have a few ways.  They don't oppose each other.  Or, if they do, I'd be very interested in learning how.  

"It's not simply silly -- it's political hypocrisy, a 
determined attempt to have it both ways, to get jobs in academia teaching how to appreciate the very things that one, as an artist, most disparages in the very principles and creation of one's own art."

What I disparage, sometimes intemperately and foolishly, is doing nothing as a poet that other poets haven't already done.  What I disparage without regret is the practice of poets and critics who say or act as though the only kind of significant poetry extant is what's done in Wilshberia--or, in Marcus's case, is one tiny suburb of Wilshberia.

Okay, I've had a pretty good say.  Now, an announcement: I'm taking a ten-day vacation, starting tomorrow, from just about everything, including my blog and New-Poetry.  I need a rest.  Yeah, yeah, I know: others need a rest from me, too.  Anyway, I'll be back--probably worse than ever.

--Bob
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From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Thu Jul 28 18:35:12 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:35:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] why does anything/everything exist?
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B41@mail.emerson.edu>

didn't Mallarme offer the ultimate answer to this. . .

"Everything in the world exists in order to end up in a book."

that's good enough for the old knotthead. . .




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 28 20:47:40 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:47:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, I told you so...
Message-ID: <1c1.2d4b04bb.301ad6ac@aol.com>

 
http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1535918,00.html?gusrc=rss
 
Park seeks poet laureate 
 
David Ward
Tuesday July 26, 2005
The Guardian 
 
Britain's most-visited national park launches a competition this week to find 
its own poet laureate to express "the unique spirit" of the Peak District, 
and "what it means to live, work or visit there".
Entries are open to anyone ranging from bedroom EJ Thribbs to professionals.
 
"We want someone who takes poetry very seriously," said Charles Monkhouse of 
Arts in the Peak, which is organising the contest. "We are looking for a 
contemporary voice, someone who sees the problems of the Peak as well as its 
pastoral beauties - a post-modern voice rather than one that is looking back."
 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 28 21:05:45 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:05:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Wackos [WS]
Message-ID: <1c8.2da7e4d3.301adae9@aol.com>

I was in St. Louis this week and stopped by a used book
store on Delmar...Subterranean Books...and I picked up
_Alias Shakespeare_ by Jos. Sobran. I'll report back on 
my findings...so far his arguments against Will we know
and love are pretty thin and he seems to contradict himself 
on every other page. I'm keeping an open mind though and 
the writing is quick and journalistic, not at all turgid.
Finnegan


In a message dated 7/26/2005 12:14:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes:
Here are just a few "ignorant wackos" who are on record as rejecting or
strongly doubting the Stratfordian claim. Classisists all, I presume:

Ralph Waldo Emerson; Walt Whitman; Mark Twain; Charles Dickens; Henry
James; Sigmund Freud; Supreme Court Justices John Paul Stevens, Harry
Blackmun, and Lewis Powell; Orson Welles; Charlie Chaplin; Sir John
Gielgud; Richard Crinkley, former Director of Educational Programming
for the Folger Shakespeare Library; Mark Rylance, Artistic Director, the
Globe Theatre. 

Kent
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 28 21:23:00 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:23:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
Message-ID: <9.48ea6c69.301adef4@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/28/2005 1:42:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes:

IANAP -- but on the chance that you're really interested in what people think 
on the matter, the only answer that's ever made sense for me is radical 
contingency. Everything that can happen does, given enough time and space, and once 
replicators get going, Darwinian selection wildly accelerates exploration of 
some possibilities in particular environments while closing off others. And I 
think Suzanne Langer was right to claim that an animal ALWAYS does everything 
it can, though I'd broaden that from animals to all living things.

Mike S
Mike, are you giving "life" more elbow room to colonize
and proliferate than you would give to "poetry"?
Finnegan
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Jul 28 21:39:43 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:39:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, I told you so...
References: <1c1.2d4b04bb.301ad6ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c593de$68105210$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Yeah, but you didn't say anything about the bedroom EJ Thribbs.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:47 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, I told you so...


   

  http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1535918,00.html?gusrc=rss

   

  Park seeks poet laureate 

   

  David Ward

  Tuesday July 26, 2005

  The Guardian 

   

  Britain's most-visited national park launches a competition this week to find its own poet laureate to express "the unique spirit" of the Peak District, and "what it means to live, work or visit there".

  Entries are open to anyone ranging from bedroom EJ Thribbs to professionals.

   

  "We want someone who takes poetry very seriously," said Charles Monkhouse of Arts in the Peak, which is organising the contest. "We are looking for a contemporary voice, someone who sees the problems of the Peak as well as its pastoral beauties - a post-modern voice rather than one that is looking back."

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bardo at optonline.net  Thu Jul 28 22:29:00 2005
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:29:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
	<3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <009a01c593e5$48131090$3a95c044@MULDER>

To feed the cats.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist


>I wonder if I could inquire of the Philosophers on this list to tell me why
> people exist. Why do People, Love, Children, and Leaves exist please?
>
> I would like to know. I will wait with keen attention for your words.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Jul 28 22:52:47 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:52:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <9.48ea6c69.301adef4@aol.com>
References: <9.48ea6c69.301adef4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1C696119-2516-4565-BD28-802C4C736F53@mac.com>


On Jul 28, 2005, at 21:23 , JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/28/2005 1:42:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
> mandolin at mac.com writes:
>
> IANAP -- but on the chance that you're really interested in what  
> people think on the matter, the only answer that's ever made sense  
> for me is radical contingency. Everything that can happen does,  
> given enough time and space, and once replicators get going,  
> Darwinian selection wildly accelerates exploration of some  
> possibilities in particular environments while closing off others.  
> And I think Suzanne Langer was right to claim that an animal ALWAYS  
> does everything it can, though I'd broaden that from animals to all  
> living things.
>
> Mike S
> Mike, are you giving "life" more elbow room to colonize
> and proliferate than you would give to "poetry"?
> Finnegan

Depends on what you're asking.

One answer is that poetry is a human activity, constrained by human  
abilities and by human conventions, and humans are a tiny subset of  
living things and living variety, even on this planet. Even if  
"poetry" comes to mean something entirely different, whatever is  
meant by that word at that time in whatever language will be  
similarly constrained. And because of the kind of animal we are, as  
long as we continue as that same kind of animal there'll be  
something, whatever it's called, that works a lot like what we now  
call poetry works. When we go extinct or our descendants change in  
ways that preclude the making of those kinds of things, poetry goes  
away. Life goes on long after us until heat death or proton decay or  
the big crunch or something we haven't yet imagined, and in the  
meantime there's rpobably more variety among the different kinds of  
beetles than there is among the different kinds of poems.

Having said that, the human mind is easily among the most complex  
possible things in the universe.





From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 29 00:05:00 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:05:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <1C696119-2516-4565-BD28-802C4C736F53@mac.com>
References: <9.48ea6c69.301adef4@aol.com>
	<1C696119-2516-4565-BD28-802C4C736F53@mac.com>
Message-ID: <0963776cdb6a98773e7c842d8cc37352@earthlink.net>


I thought that Vonnegut settled all this. People exist
on earth only to provide a spare part for that
Tralfamadorian spaceship hovering out there
waiting for its delivery so that it can complete its
trans-galactic mission, which really has nothing
to do with any of us.

Hal



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Fri Jul 29 00:26:01 2005
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:26:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Raymond Carver
In-Reply-To: <0963776cdb6a98773e7c842d8cc37352@earthlink.net>
References: <9.48ea6c69.301adef4@aol.com>
	<1C696119-2516-4565-BD28-802C4C736F53@mac.com>
	<0963776cdb6a98773e7c842d8cc37352@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20050728232352.L43298@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Raymond Carver - The Cobweb

A few minutes ago, I stepped onto the deck
of the house. From there I could see and hear the water,
and everything that's happened to me all these years.
It was hot and still. The tide was out.
No birds sang. As I leaned against the railing
a cobweb touched my forehead.
It caught in my hair. No one can blame me that I turned
and went inside. There was no wind. The sea
was dead calm. I hung the cobweb from the lampshade.
Where I watch it shudder now and then when my breath
touches it. A fine thread. Intricate.
Before long, before anyone realizes,
I'll be gone from here.


-----------------

Raymond Carver - Your Dog Dies

it gets run over by a van.
you find it at the side of the road
and bury it.
you feel bad about it.
you feel bad personally,
but you feel bad for your daughter
because it was her pet,
and she loved it so.
she used to croon to it
and let it sleep in her bed.
you write a poem about it.
you call it a poem for your daughter,
about the dog getting run over by a van
and how you looked after it,
took it out into the woods
and buried it deep, deep,
and that poem turns out so good
you're almost glad the little dog
was run over, or else you'd never
have written that good poem.
then you sit down to write
a poem about writing a poem
about the death of that dog,
but while you're writing you
hear a woman scream
your name, your first name,
both syllables,
and your heart stops.
after a minute, you continue writing.
she screams again.
you wonder how long this can go on.



From elemenope at icubed.com  Fri Jul 29 01:19:41 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:19:41 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions
In-Reply-To: <200507281600.j6SG05Re010342@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200507281600.j6SG05Re010342@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100306bf0f6b0c797b@[204.215.201.141]>

I am New Jersey, I am Walt Whitman, I am a hologram and within me are 
all of us, and each of us, and within each of us are any and all of 
us.  I am Asbury Park before the Great Society arrived when happy and 
blinking like Christmas in July before Christmas was outlawed by the 
ACLU.  I am writing prose, but you never know, at any moment what you 
are reading may by some metempsychotic fit transubstantiate into 
poetry, even though it can never get verse.

R i c h a r d   D i l l o n



>
>
>
>On Jul 27, 2005, at 2:00 PM, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>
>>>  ?Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.
>
>Ah, but so is New Jersey!
>
>Hal
>
>

-- 



From clitophon at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 29 04:02:07 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <1C696119-2516-4565-BD28-802C4C736F53@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050729080208.76421.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>

 
> Having said that, the human mind is easily among the
> most complex  
> possible things in the universe.
> 
don?t you think that this is really a very arrogant
statement?  do you claim to know the totality of
things in the Universe?  as far as we know, it is and
it could be that it really is as complex as you
suggest but if it is so complex then why do we still
have capitalism or flush toilets or tin cans or
processed peas?  tell me that 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail for Mobile 
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail 


From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jul 28 23:02:19 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:02:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
In-Reply-To: <00c301c593c2$fde99790$51b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42E963FB.31792.5D538A@localhost>

On 28 Jul 2005 at 18:23, Bob Grumman wrote:
> ...[Marcus] says (elsewhere), "Wouldn't you imagine an actual,  a real,
> revolutionary in the field of poetry, would be saying 'Shakeswho? Fuck
> him. He's OLD. Burn his crap, man -- listen to THIS.'"  

> You know, I really don't know how to answer this.  It seems too insane
> to get hold of.  I do think I'm doing something different.  I don't think
> I'm particularly revolutionary.  But If I am, how am I contradicting my
> revolutionary intent by acknowledging the greatness of the works that
> led to mine?<

I don't claim that you or Kent cannot _acknowledge_ that something 
came before -- it's that I don't see how it's possible to claim to love, to 
really love and respect, the kinds of poems that your own creative works 
depart so radically from. If you really really think that mathemaku is 
really poetry, then Shakespeare can't be. 

>  I suppose maybe if I were stupid enough to claim that my
> mathemaku did everything Shakespeare's poems did AND MORE, it
> would follow that I thought his works superfluous. <

But this is the claim that you DO make, as I understand it. It is your 
contention that new poetry is better poetry by virtue of being new, in the 
same way the Fosbury Flop was a new and better way to get over the 
high jump. That's your own comparison. It is your explicit claim that new 
is better, because, as new techniques lead to higher jumps in the high 
jump, so new techniques lead to better poems in poetry. 

> But I'm just doing works I hope will do as much for their . . . engagents
> (I'm still trying for a term that is more general than "reader") as
> Shakespeare's poems--in a different way.  Why can't someone
> sincerely want to do that, and what makes it necessarily a  foolish
> desire?

Because you view poetry as a competitive event, with new techniques 
replacing old techniques, doing better work. It's not a matter of building 
on old traditions, it's a matter of replacing those traditions with new 
techniques -- ever new techniques, it seems, too. You may not have 
thought of it yet, but your poems must suffer the same fate as those 
poems your poems replace as newer poets invent yet newer techniques 
even than yours. Poetry, for you, according to your own metaphors and 
arguments, is a matter of a progression of new techniques that 
progressively replace one another, making the previous techniques 
unusably old-fashioned and uncompetitive with the new.
 
> "But they don't. They purport to love the works that their own work
> shows they must disdain in order to do their own work," Marcus goes 
on to say.<

> As a creative artist, I do prefer not to copy the work of my
> predecessors.  How does that make me a disdainer of it?<

Because your metaphors and arguments are explicit: you view the old 
poetry the way you view the old way to do the high jump, as 
uncompetitively old-fashioned.

>  Is everyone who makes other kinds of formal lyric poems than
> Shakespearean sonnets disdaining Shakespeare?<

No, because other people don't hold, as you do hold, that new 
techniques replace old poetry with the new poetry of the new 
techniques. My question is why would you, as a committed revolutionary 
who truly believes that new techniques inevitably lead to better poems, 
poems that are as much better than their predescessors as high jumps 
with the Flop are better than high jumps without it, why would YOU want 
to have anything to do with what you must view as a failed and obsolete 
poetry such as Shakespeare's? 

>  How does a belief
> that a combination of a mathematical operation with a verbal image
> can work as poetry come off as a belief that not doing this cannot work
> as poetry?<

Your view is that your new techniques REPLACE the old techniques, 
make them obsolete and uncompetitively old-fashioned. Your view has 
never been that your, or other's, new techniques are merely 
experimental or are exploring the odd corners of an old tradition. No, 
you've always held that new techniques REPLACE the old techniques 
because the new techniques are better, and produce better poems.

> "I don't say it's not possible to appreciate different kinds of art -- I say
> that it's not possible to hold that Shakespeare through Tennyson to
> Wilbur is brilliant, wonderful stuff and still do work the fundamental
> tenets of which are that everything from Shakespeare through
> Tennyson to Wilbur is worthless."

> Dan Schneider recently posted that I was "an old psychotic who 
believes that poems must contain visual elements because words alone 
are no longer enough," or something close to that.  (He did call me both 
psychotic and old.)  I asked him to show where I said anything that could 
lead anyone sane to believe that.  He ignored the request.  All I can say 
is that I believe there are lots of ways to make first-rate poems.  
Shakespeare had a few ways, I have a few ways.  They don't oppose 
each other.  Or, if they do, I'd be very interested in learning how.  <

This is diametrically opposed to everything else you've ever said on this 
heading. You have been holding forth for years now that I've known you 
that new techniques REPLACE old techniques, as the Fosbury Flop 
replaced the scissor jump, because the new techniques necessarily lead 
to better poems as the flop lead to higher jumps. To now say that you've 
never said such a thing is preposterous. Have you changed your mind? 

> What I disparage, sometimes intemperately and foolishly, is doing
> nothing as a poet that other poets haven't already done.  <

And now you contradict yourself explicitly: here you claim just the 
opposite of what you claimed above. Now you're saying again that it 
must be new or it's worthless, that you disparage it. You can't have it 
both ways, Bob -- either there are first-rate poems to be written in the 
old way or there are not. If there are, then there is no necessary 
progression in the development of poetry, no "fosbury flop" of a new 
technique that can replace the old style by necessarily producing better 
poems.  If there is such a progression and replacement, then you can't 
reasonably hold that there are first-rate poems that don't use new 
techniques. 

Marcus



From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Jul 29 06:38:32 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:38:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <1C696119-2516-4565-BD28-802C4C736F53@mac.com>
References: <9.48ea6c69.301adef4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <42E9CEE8.20748.1A758F@localhost>

Why people exist? Top predator is a dirty job, but someone has to do it -
- people have the job until some meaner smarter or luckier predator 
comes along.

Marcus



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jul 29 08:57:18 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:57:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetica broadcast
Message-ID: <1e5.414056e6.301b81ae@aol.com>

POETICA
30/07/2005 15:00
04/08/2005 21:00 (repeat)

Breaking the Silence : A Century of South African Women's Poetry
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1391587.htm

>From Anna De Bremont's 1892 poem about her husband to Antjie Krog's 1998 poem 
presented to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, this 
program explores the distinctive voices of South African Women Poets. 
Drawn from the different racial groups of South Africa, the poets not 
only explore political history but cover a wide range of subjects that 
have been considered taboo.
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Fri Jul 29 08:59:46 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:59:46 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <200507291239.j6TCdAHC004904@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200507291239.j6TCdAHC004904@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100304bf0fd745a9c8@[204.215.201.76]>

Hal agrees with Z. Sitchin,
Who doesn't write fiction.
Vonnegut was clever to review
What Sitchin had found to be true.

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n



At 08:39 AM -0400 7/29/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
>
>Message: 19
>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:05:00 -0400
>From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <0963776cdb6a98773e7c842d8cc37352 at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
>I thought that Vonnegut settled all this. People exist
>on earth only to provide a spare part for that
>Tralfamadorian spaceship hovering out there
>waiting for its delivery so that it can complete its
>trans-galactic mission, which really has nothing
>to do with any of us.
>
>Hal




-- 


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jul 29 09:03:22 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:03:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Knopf titles
Message-ID: <b7.5cd5496c.301b831a@aol.com>

Knopf Poetry returns to your inbox with a Greek festival of poetry. Included 
in this July's email is a brief excerpt from Michael Schmidt's masterful new 
book, THE FIRST POETS: LIVES OF THE ANCIENT GREEK POETS, along with a link to 
the first chapter. Then, we present you with a portion of Kenneth Koch's poem 
"On the Acropolis" from his collection A POSSIBLE WORLD along with a poem from 
Jack Gilbert's new collection, REFUSING HEAVEN. A link to audio and video of 
Gilbert reading from REFUSING HEAVEN follows. All copyright info can be found 
at the end of the email. 
*************************************** . 
In THE FIRST POETS, Michael Schmidt brings the poets and poems of ancient 
Greek to life. Beginning with poets shrouded in myth, such as Orpheus, Schmidt 
explores the work of famous poets Homer, Hesiod, Sappho, and Pindar along with 
less well known writers such as Mimnermus of Colophon, Stesichorus of Himera, 
Corinna of Tanagra, and Anacreon of Teos?twenty-five poets in all. Michael 
Dirda in the Washington Post writes: "It would be difficult to imagine a better 
introduction to the topic." 
A brief excerpt from Chapter XVII, "Anacreon of Teos": 
There is a beguiling theory that Eros' ball preceded Eros' arrow. Love was 
something unexpectedly tossed to you which you caught as a reflex and then 
couldn't dispose of. Later, this was replaced by the bow and arrow, the sense that 
love begins with an unexpected, inextricable penetration. Sir Thomas Wyatt and 
Henry VIII fell in love with the same woman, Anne Boleyn. Both Athenaeus and 
Aelian record how Anacreon and the tyrant Polycrates of Samos fell in love 
with the same Thracian lad, one Smerdies. Anacreon had come to Samos from Thrace, 
where boys wore their hair long. Did Polycrates cut off the boy's hair in a 
spate of jealousy or to make him more Samian in aspect? Certainly Anacreon in 
several fragments laments the shearing of the lad, but being politic does not 
blame the tyrant but Smerdies himself for thus marring his charms. The contest 
for Smerdies' locks is hyperbolic, suggesting (not insisting on) a struggle 
for Thrace itself, and Smerdies' own loss of cultural identity. 
Was boy-love something Polycrates promoted at Samos and was Anacreon, who 
until that time seems to have chosen his imagery in a more heterosexual spirit?
writing about fillies, for example?conforming to his patron's proclivities in 
writing poems of intense desire and gentle contest? The second-century 
rhetorician Maximus of Tyre saw it the other way around: ". . . Anacreon made 
Polycrates more gentle to the Samians by mingling love with tyranny?the hair of 
Smerdies and Cleobulus, the beauty of Bathyllus, and Ionian song." 
Though he is profligate of loves, Anacreon is not profligate with language. 
There is a generally direct, colloquial quality to his diction, a precise 
economy of image. "Love's dice, one is madness, one is frenzy." "I am borne over 
hidden shoals." "Once more bald-pate Alexis goes awooing." Set beside the 
abundance of Apollonius, for example, where the sheer amount of language far 
outweighs the occasion, Anacreon's thrift is exemplary. He "has left the formulaic 
style of the epic far behind him and chooses his words individually for their 
special merits." A refusal to be solemn does not make him any less serious as a 
poet. Love is not something to be endured: it is to be played and boxed with, 
to be knocked down by, to be pondered in its aftermath. 
 Read the first chapter of THE FIRST POETS, "Orpheus of Thrace":
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0gYL0EO 
*************************************** 
>From A POSSIBLE WORLD by Kenneth Koch, 
an excerpt from "On the Acropolis:" 
It doesn't seem as though we could die up here, does it? 
The Acropolis is so old that death on it seems superfluous. 
So we can afford to take some chances? 
Leap off the wall! Bash statues with our heads! 

God smiles down on the Acropolis. It's a good church
But with the wrong idea. Then he is distracted by his children
Scattered among the chambers of the sea. 
Old friends, I am thinking of you still. 
You built the Acropolis but you didn't build it for me. 

The Acropolis has a uniform 
That no schoolboy can wear because it is invisible. 
"It goes to the Periclean School!" 

When I first came to Greece
I was twenty-five years old
And I've learned so little since 
That the Greeks already knew! 
Almost nothing! 
I don't know why this is? 
Mathematics, astronomy, 
All have remained dim to me--
I should have applied myself! 
My "life" got in the way
But what was in my life
Inimical to Greece? 

*** 

Aeschylus and Socrates 
Used to sit and chat up here
On the old rocks beneath the light of the very old sun
And one of their frequent subjects was
How young or old they felt or were. 
"I am getting on, Socrates," says Aeschylus. 
"Oh no," cries Socrates, "you still look like a boy!" 
*************************************** 
>From Jack Gilbert's REFUSING HEAVEN 
Happening Apart from What's Happening Around It 
There is a vividness to eleven years of love
because it is over. A clarity of Greece now
because I live in Manhattan or New England. 
If what is happening is part of what's going on
around what's occurring, it is impossible
to know what is truly happening. If love is
part of the passion, part of the fine food
or the villa on the Mediterranean, it is not
clear what the love is. When I was walking
in the mountains with the Japanese man and began
to hear the water, he said, "What is the sound 
of the waterfall?" "Silence," he finally told me. 
The stillness I did not notice until the sound 
of water falling made apparent the silence I had
been hearing long before. I ask myself what
is the sound of women? What is the word for
that still thing I have hunted inside them 
for so long? Deep inside the avalanche of joy, 
the thing deeper in the dark, and deeper still
in the bed where we are lost. Deeper, deeper
down where a woman's heart is holding its breath, 
where something very far away in that body
is becoming something we don't have a name for. 


Jack Gilbert has spent many years living on the Greek islands of the Aegean 
Sea. You can listen to him read a selection of his poems at the following link 
(after the catalogue page loads, scroll down to the bottom of the page for the 
audio links):
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0gYM0EP 
You can watch a reading with Jack Gilbert and poet Linda Gregg held May 4, 
2004 in Archilokos Hall on the Greek Island of Paros by visiting Parosweb: The 
Online Community of Paros Island: 
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0gYN0EQ 
*************************************** 
 Join us at the Knopf Poetry Center Online: 
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0ecp0E7 
 More about Michael Schmidt's THE FIRST POETS:
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0gYO0ER 
 Order a copy of THE FIRST POETS: 
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0gYP0ES 
 More about Kenneth Koch's A POSSIBLE WORLD: 
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0gYQ0ET 
 Order a copy of A POSSIBLE WORLD: 
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0gYR0EU 
 More about Jack Gilbert's REFUSING HEAVEN: 
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0gYS0EV 
 Order a copy of REFUSING HEAVEN: 
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0gYT0EW 
 Join the discussion in the Knopf Poetry Forum: 
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jkpg0DXKYc0Wa0TtQ0Eb 
*************************************** 
"Anacreon of Teos" from THE FIRST POETS by Michael Schmidt. Copyright ? 2004 
by Michael Schmidt. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of 
Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be 
reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. 
"On the Acropolis" from A POSSIBLE WORLD by Kenneth Koch. Copyright ? 2002 by 
Kenneth Koch. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of 
Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced 
or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. 
"Happening Apart from What's Happening Around It" from REFUSING HEAVEN by 
Jack Gilbert. Copyright ? 2005 by Jack Gilbert. Excerpted by permission of Alfred 
A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of 
this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from 
the publisher.
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Fri Jul 29 09:23:07 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:23:07 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <200507291239.j6TCdAHC004904@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200507291239.j6TCdAHC004904@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100305bf0fda2656d4@[204.215.200.72]>

The D. Parker-like answer to this question given by Mr. Zimmerman 
isn't far off the mark:
>
>Message: 17
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:29:00 -0400
>From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
>
>To feed the cats.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:43 AM
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>
>
>>I wonder if I could inquire of the Philosophers on this list to tell me why
>>  people exist. Why do People, Love, Children, and Leaves exist please?
>>
>>  I would like to know. I will wait with keen attention for your words.
>>
>>  Thanks.
>  >


This kind of questioning is evaluated by Martin Heidegger expertly 
and is resolved into one version which is as true a question for one 
person as for another:  Why is there anything instead of nothing? 
Heidegger, of course, moves powerfully from this question to higher 
semantic levels in resolving the profoundly understandable, 
potentially calamitous, anxiety expressed by the querent.

R i c h a r d   D i l l o n










>Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
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>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Little J. A. (Chris Lott)
>    2. Re: Why poetry exists, I think (Marcus Bales)
>    3. Re: Why poetry exists, I think (Paul Murphy)
>    4. Re: Why People Exist (kpaul mallasch)
>    5. Re: Why People Exist (Mike Snider)
>    6. Re: Little J. A. (Bob Grumman)
>    7. Re: Little J. A. (Chris Lott)
>    8. Re: Why People Exist (Anny Ballardini)
>    9. Re: Little J. A. (Bob Grumman)
>   10. Re: Little J. A. (Marcus Bales)
>   11. Re: Little J. A. (Bob Grumman)
>   12. why does anything/everything exist? (William Knott)
>   13. Tad, I told you so... (JforJames at aol.com)
>   14. Re: Some Wackos [WS] (JforJames at aol.com)
>   15. Re: Why People Exist (JforJames at aol.com)
>   16. Re: Tad, I told you so... (The Old Mole)
>   17. Re: Why People Exist (Daniel Zimmerman)
>   18. Re: Why People Exist (Michael Snider)
>   19. Re: Why People Exist (Halvard Johnson)
>   20. Raymond Carver (kpaul mallasch)
>   21. Re: Kent's Three Questions (ELEMENOPE Productions)
>   22. Re: Why People Exist (Paul Murphy)
>   23. Re: Little J. A. (Marcus Bales)
>   24. Re: Why People Exist (Marcus Bales)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:26:15 -0800
>From: Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05072809263ecc1be2 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>On 7/28/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>>>  A little surprising to find Garrison Keillor featuring Ashbery, no?
>>>
>>  My goodness, yes.  Ashbery is so obscure.
>
>Irrelevant, really, since this isn't a note about Ashbery, but about
>Keillor. Unless you are saying that it's no surprise to you that
>Keillor would feature an Ashbery poem?
>
>c
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:56:57 -0400
>From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why poetry exists, I think
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <42E8D619.15519.9C7BEF at localhost>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>On 28 Jul 2005 at 11:28, Mike Snider wrote:
>>  ... prose certainly has rhythm(s). But rhythm is not structural in
>>  prose; it isn't an organizing formal element. That, rather than meter, is
>>  what, for me, makes a particular work of literature a poem. Though it's
>  > not as bright a line as yours (the world is messy), it still avoids making
>>  "poetry" an honorific. And I agree with you that that honorific sense is
>>  why some artists wish to call some things "poetry" that clearly are not.
>
>The difference between "rhythm that is not an organizing formal
>element" and "rhythm that is an organizing formal element" seems to me
>to be the difference between "rhythm" and "meter". I'm willing to talk
>about the many kinds of meter, and not confine the notion of meter to
>only a few sorts of accentual-syllabic, of course, but to broaden the
>notion of "meter" out to "rhythm" is to distort the category into
>meaninglessness.
>
>If there is a reason to distinguish between poetry and prose (and I
>understand that there are people who hold that there is no reason to do
>so -- though I think the grounds they give for that view are shaky to non-
>existent) then the reason must do some reasonable work for us,
>conceptually.
>
>Perhaps it's more tactful to speak of "rhythm" than it is to speak of
>"meter", and one can soothe the ruffled feathers of the post-avant-
>gardists who have made a short tradition of revolting against the longer
>tradition that they now know only academically.
>
>Has it ever occurred to you that people who say they love everything
>from Shakespeare through Tennyson all the way to Wilbur, that they
>love that stuff, that they really do love and respect it, can't 
>really do so if
>they're serious about "breaking the pentameter", if they're really sincere
>about eliminating not only meter but rhythm, and all the other rhetorical
>tools of the language, from their own work?
>
>Does it ever seem very odd to you that Bob Grumman and Kent
>Johnson, for example, even know who Shakespeare IS? Wouldn't you
>imagine an actual,  a real, revolutionary in the field of poetry, would be
>saying "Shakeswho? Fuck him. He's OLD. Burn his crap, man -- listen to
>THIS" But they don't. They purport to love the works that their own work
>shows they must disdain in order to do their own work.
>
>It's no more possible to hold that Shakespeare's work is important and
>significant to an individual who really thinks that mathemaku are
>important and significant than it is to hold that there is no god but Allah
>and Mithra is his name.
>
>I don't say it's not possible to appreciate different kinds of art -- I say
>that i's not possible to hold that Shakespeare through Tennyson to
>Wilbur is brilliant, wonderful stuff and still do work the fundamental
>tenets of which are that everything from Shakespeare through Tennyson
>to Wilbur is worthless. It's not simply silly -- it's political hypocrisy, a
>determined attempt to have it both ways, to get jobs in academia
>teaching how to appreciate the very things that one, as an artist, most
>disparages in the very principles and creation of one's own art.
>
>Marcus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:32:22 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why poetry exists, I think
>To: marcus at designerglass.com, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
>	&amp,	Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <20050728173222.50220.qmail at web40425.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>isn?t poetry just what people happen to say poetry is
>at any particular time?  When I was at school they
>(the academic establishment) tried to force feed us
>Shakespeare but this is not where it was at for 15 yr
>old boys and girls at that time.  Where it was at was
>clearly the Punk movement.   Shakespeare was just
>ridiculed as pomposity.  Now Shakespeare seemed to us
>to be pompous because it is written in English that is
>by this time quite old.  That doesn?t mean its bad, of
>course, but it seemed extremely pompous to us.  We
>wanted to find history books and instead of learning
>about the 3rd Reich, draw massive penises on Himmler
>and Eichmann, still a legitimate comment in my view
>except (that they probably didn?t have - any balls). 
>I don?t think that anyone gives a darn about your
>comments below which is not to distract from their
>validity.  But your comments sound like the ragings of
>Polonious in ?Hamlet?.  Which is not to say that they
>may not be sensitive, erudite statements but what is
>the connection of this to poetry?
>--- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
>
>>  On 28 Jul 2005 at 11:28, Mike Snider wrote:
>>  > ... prose certainly has rhythm(s). But rhythm is
>  > not structural in
>>  > prose; it isn't an organizing formal element.
>>  That, rather than meter, is
>>  > what, for me, makes a particular work of
>>  literature a poem. Though it's
>>  > not as bright a line as yours (the world is
>>  messy), it still avoids making
>>  > "poetry" an honorific. And I agree with you that
>>  that honorific sense is
>>  > why some artists wish to call some things "poetry"
>>  that clearly are not.
>>
>>  The difference between "rhythm that is not an
>>  organizing formal
>>  element" and "rhythm that is an organizing formal
>>  element" seems to me
>>  to be the difference between "rhythm" and "meter".
>>  I'm willing to talk
>>  about the many kinds of meter, and not confine the
>>  notion of meter to
>>  only a few sorts of accentual-syllabic, of course,
>>  but to broaden the
>>  notion of "meter" out to "rhythm" is to distort the
>>  category into
>>  meaninglessness.
>>
>>  If there is a reason to distinguish between poetry
>>  and prose (and I
>>  understand that there are people who hold that there
>>  is no reason to do
>>  so -- though I think the grounds they give for that
>>  view are shaky to non-
>>  existent) then the reason must do some reasonable
>>  work for us,
>>  conceptually.
>>
>>  Perhaps it's more tactful to speak of "rhythm" than
>>  it is to speak of
>>  "meter", and one can soothe the ruffled feathers of
>>  the post-avant-
>>  gardists who have made a short tradition of
>>  revolting against the longer
>>  tradition that they now know only academically.
>>
>>  Has it ever occurred to you that people who say they
>>  love everything
>>  from Shakespeare through Tennyson all the way to
>>  Wilbur, that they
>>  love that stuff, that they really do love and
>>  respect it, can't really do so if
>>  they're serious about "breaking the pentameter", if
>>  they're really sincere
>>  about eliminating not only meter but rhythm, and all
>>  the other rhetorical
>>  tools of the language, from their own work?
>>
>>  Does it ever seem very odd to you that Bob Grumman
>>  and Kent
>>  Johnson, for example, even know who Shakespeare IS?
>>  Wouldn't you
>>  imagine an actual,  a real, revolutionary in the
>>  field of poetry, would be
>>  saying "Shakeswho? Fuck him. He's OLD. Burn his
>>  crap, man -- listen to
>>  THIS" But they don't. They purport to love the works
>>  that their own work
>>  shows they must disdain in order to do their own
>>  work.
>>
>>  It's no more possible to hold that Shakespeare's
>>  work is important and
>>  significant to an individual who really thinks that
>>  mathemaku are
>>  important and significant than it is to hold that
>>  there is no god but Allah
>>  and Mithra is his name.
>>
>>  I don't say it's not possible to appreciate
>>  different kinds of art -- I say
>>  that i's not possible to hold that Shakespeare
>>  through Tennyson to
>>  Wilbur is brilliant, wonderful stuff and still do
>>  work the fundamental
>>  tenets of which are that everything from Shakespeare
>>  through Tennyson
>>  to Wilbur is worthless. It's not simply silly --
>>  it's political hypocrisy, a
>>  determined attempt to have it both ways, to get jobs
>>  in academia
>>  teaching how to appreciate the very things that one,
>>  as an artist, most
>>  disparages in the very principles and creation of
>>  one's own art.
>>
>>  Marcus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:34:18 -0500 (EST)
>From: kpaul mallasch <kpaul at mallasch.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <20050728123406.H49404 at kpaul.spinweb.net>
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>I say Yahweh... ;)
>
>-kpaul
>mallasch.com/mug/
>
>On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:
>
>>  I wonder if I could inquire of the Philosophers on this list to tell me why
>  > people exist. Why do People, Love, Children, and Leaves exist please?
>>
>>  I would like to know. I will wait with keen attention for your words.
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>>
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail.
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:41:57 -0400
>From: Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin at mac.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>
>On Thursday, July 28, 2005, at 11:44AM, <gmguddi at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
>>I wonder if I could inquire of the Philosophers on this list to tell me why
>>people exist. Why do People, Love, Children, and Leaves exist please?
>>
>>I would like to know. I will wait with keen attention for your words.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>
>
>IANAP -- but on the chance that you're really interested in what 
>people think on the matter, the only answer that's ever made sense 
>for me is radical contingency. Everything that can happen does, 
>given enough time and space, and once replicators get going, 
>Darwinian selection wildly accelerates exploration of some 
>possibilities in particular environments while closing off others. 
>And I think Suzanne Langer was right to claim that an animal ALWAYS 
>does everything it can, though I'd broaden that from animals to all 
>living things.
>
>Mike S
>
>-----
>Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:03:19 -0400
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
>To: "Chris Lott" <chris.lott at gmail.com>,	"NewPoetry: Contemporary
>	PoetryNews &amp;	Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <006601c5939e$a310f300$51b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>	reply-type=original
>
>>  Irrelevant, really, since this isn't a note about Ashbery, but about
>>  Keillor. Unless you are saying that it's no surprise to you that
>>  Keillor would feature an Ashbery poem?
>
>>  c
>
>I'm saying it doesn't surprise me that Keillor would find a way to show that
>he wasn't totally out of it by featuring a poem by one of the two very
>prominent poets Wishberia is named after.  No, I don't think Keillor went
>out of his way to do this; I think someone probably showed him a poem by
>Ashbery he thought Keillor would like and Keillor liked it.  At that point,
>because it was a poem by Ashbery, the famous poet and a poet noted for being
>"experimental," Keillor featured it.
>
>Now that I've just read the poem, I admit to being surprised Keillor
>featured that particular poem.  I find it silly and hermetic, and have
>trouble believing Keillor could have any idea what it's about--but maybe he
>does.  I have no trouble believing he would feature something by Ashbery.
>Come back to me when he features something by John M. Bennett, Scott Helmes,
>P. Inman or Ron Silliman.
>
>--Bob G.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:10:27 -0800
>From: Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <9b1b9dab050728111095d562e at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>On 7/28/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
>>  I'm saying it doesn't surprise me
>
>You must know Keillor quite well. Based on what I know of him, he
>doesn't spend much time going out of his way to try to show that he is
>hip. If anything, it's the other way around (thus anthologies like
>"Good Poems"). Which only makes it more surprising.
>
>You're too cynical for your own good, finding it impossible to believe
>that someone might actually just choose poems based on liking what
>they hear. You always seem to have to assume there is-- at least in
>addition-- some nefarious motive (a troubling symptom of the
>"post-avant" martyr-coimplex). In this case, I highly doubt it--
>there's no real motivation to do so.
>
>>  I think someone probably showed him a poem by
>>  Ashbery he thought Keillor would like and Keillor liked it. 
>
>You probably had it right at this point, but then you kept on talking
>to feed your conspiracy theory.
>
>c
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:28:19 +0200
>From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652 at ANNY>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>People exist because otherwise we would be too happy, and being too 
>happy we would get too bored and would not realize we could have 
>been that happy if people did not exist. Love exists as much as 
>Hate, Children do to continue our species, Leaves are most important.
>
>It is because of Leaves that we exist.
>
>The greatest mistake of scientists is of not having understood it. 
>They have concentrated their efforts elsewhere and have continuously 
>failed, which is quite logical seen the premises. People have thus 
>set up several towers of babel: politics, medicine, engineering, 
>biology, chemistry which will inevitably collapse. But maybe this is 
>a sine qua non, otherwise they would not be People, but Leaves.
>
>Best wishes,
>Anny Ballardini
>
>
>
>From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 7:41 PM
>
>
>
>>
>>  On Thursday, July 28, 2005, at 11:44AM, <gmguddi at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>I wonder if I could inquire of the Philosophers on this list to tell me why
>>>people exist. Why do People, Love, Children, and Leaves exist please?
>>>
>>>I would like to know. I will wait with keen attention for your words.
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>  IANAP -- but on the chance that you're really interested in what 
>>people think on the matter, the only answer that's ever made sense 
>>for me is radical contingency. Everything that can happen does, 
>>given enough time and space, and once replicators get going, 
>>Darwinian selection wildly accelerates exploration of some 
>>possibilities in particular environments while closing off others. 
>>And I think Suzanne Langer was right to claim that an animal ALWAYS 
>>does everything it can, though I'd broaden that from animals to all 
>>living things.
>>
>>  Mike S
>>
>>  -----
>>  Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>>  http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:40:12 -0400
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
>To: "Chris Lott" <chris.lott at gmail.com>,	"NewPoetry: Contemporary
>	PoetryNews &amp;	Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <009e01c593ac$2be01190$51b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>	reply-type=original
>
>No conspiracy theory.  No special knowledge of Keillor except that he's a
>Philistine and proud of it.  I can't know how he operates but it makes sense
>that he's like most mediocrities, and was swayed by Ashbery's name-value in
>selecting his poem.  Show me some other poem as goofy as Ashbery's that he's
>featured?  That he hasn't, so far as I know, although there are dozens
>around, show he's name-conscious.  Or, his literary helpers are.  The
>conspiracy is, of course, unconscious--caused by the inability of stasguards
>to go outside the certified.  Keillor will go outside certified names but
>not outside certified kinds of poems.  And a poem's certification is not
>enough for him if it's not conventional by the standards of 1950, usually,
>although in this case it was--because of its author's name, I believe.
>
>--Bob G.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:29:58 -0400
>From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <42E8F9F6.17139.4E94D2 at localhost>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>On 28 Jul 2005 at 14:03, Bob Grumman wrote:
>>  Now that I've just read the poem, I admit to being surprised Keillor
>>  featured that particular poem.  I find it silly and hermetic, and have
>>  trouble believing Keillor could have any idea what it's about--but maybe he
>>  does. <
>
>It's "silly and hermetic" but at the same time too deep for Keillor? Or for
>anyone who isn't Bob Grumman? Or an avant gardist?
>
>Marcus
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:23:33 -0400
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
>To: <marcus at designerglass.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
>	&amp;	Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <00c301c593c2$fde99790$51b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>>  On 28 Jul 2005 at 14:03, Bob Grumman wrote:
>>>  Now that I've just read the poem, I admit to being surprised Keillor
>>>  featured that particular poem.  I find it silly and hermetic, and have
>>>  trouble believing Keillor could have any idea what it's about--but maybe he
>>>  does. <
>>
>>  It's "silly and hermetic" but at the same time too deep for Keillor? Or for
>>  anyone who isn't Bob Grumman? Or an avant gardist?
>>
>>  Marcus
>
>Marcus won't believe me, but I meant to note in the post he's 
>replying to that I didn't get the poem, myself.  I don't think 
>that's because it was "too deep," but because it was too jump-cut, 
>for me.  It's not an avant garde poem, although I'm sure Keillor 
>thinks it is. 
>
>While responding to Marcus (and I don't know whether I'm over my 
>limit on this thread or not, but will risk this post, anyway), let 
>me say that I genuinely can't understand why he thinks I have to 
>scorn Shakespeare.
>
>He says (elsewhere), "Wouldn't you imagine an actual,  a real, 
>revolutionary in the field of poetry, would be saying 'Shakeswho? 
>Fuck him. He's OLD. Burn his crap, man -- listen to THIS.'" 
>
>You know, I really don't know how to answer this.  It seems too 
>insane to get hold of.  I do think I'm doing something different.  I 
>don't think I'm particularly revolutionary.  But If I am, how am I 
>contradicting my revolutionary intent by acknowledging the greatness 
>of the works that led to mine?  I suppose maybe if I were stupid 
>enough to claim that my mathemaku did everything Shakespeare's poems 
>did AND MORE, it would follow that I thought his works superfluous. 
>But I'm just doing works I hope will do as much for their . . . 
>engagents (I'm still trying for a term that is more general than 
>"reader") as Shakespeare's poems--in a different way.  Why can't 
>someone sincerely want to do that, and what makes it necessarily a 
>foolish desire?
>
>"But they don't. They purport to love the works that their own work 
>shows they must disdain in order to do their own work," Marcus goes 
>on to say.
>
>As a creative artist, I do prefer not to copy the work of my 
>predecessors.  How does that make me a disdainer of it?  Is everyone 
>who makes other kinds of formal lyric poems than Shakespearean 
>sonnets disdaining Shakespeare?  How does a belief that a 
>combination of a mathematical operation with a verbal image can work 
>as poetry come off as a belief that not doing this cannot work as 
>poetry?
>
>"It's no more possible," Marcus continues, "to hold that 
>Shakespeare's work is important and significant to an individual who 
>really thinks that mathemaku are important and significant than it 
>is to hold that there is no god but Allah and Mithra is his name."
>
>Whew.  No insult to me there.  Nonetheless, if negative comments 
>bothered me, I think I might be bothered.  Or, would be if the 
>statement made any kind of sense.  I believe even David Graham could 
>defend me on this one.
>
>"I don't say it's not possible to appreciate different kinds of art 
>-- I say that it's not possible to hold that Shakespeare through 
>Tennyson to Wilbur is brilliant, wonderful stuff and still do work 
>the fundamental tenets of which are that everything from Shakespeare 
>through Tennyson
>to Wilbur is worthless."
>
>Dan Schneider recently posted that I was "an old psychotic who 
>believes that poems must contain visual elements because words alone 
>are no longer enough," or something close to that.  (He did call me 
>both psychotic and old.)  I asked him to show where I said anything 
>that could lead anyone sane to believe that.  He ignored the 
>request.  All I can say is that I believe there are lots of ways to 
>make first-rate poems.  Shakespeare had a few ways, I have a few 
>ways.  They don't oppose each other.  Or, if they do, I'd be very 
>interested in learning how. 
>
>"It's not simply silly -- it's political hypocrisy, a
>determined attempt to have it both ways, to get jobs in academia 
>teaching how to appreciate the very things that one, as an artist, 
>most disparages in the very principles and creation of one's own 
>art."
>
>What I disparage, sometimes intemperately and foolishly, is doing 
>nothing as a poet that other poets haven't already done.  What I 
>disparage without regret is the practice of poets and critics who 
>say or act as though the only kind of significant poetry extant is 
>what's done in Wilshberia--or, in Marcus's case, is one tiny suburb 
>of Wilshberia.
>
>Okay, I've had a pretty good say.  Now, an announcement: I'm taking 
>a ten-day vacation, starting tomorrow, from just about everything, 
>including my blog and New-Poetry.  I need a rest.  Yeah, yeah, I 
>know: others need a rest from me, too.  Anyway, I'll be 
>back--probably worse than ever.
>
>--Bob
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 12
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:35:12 -0400
>From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] why does anything/everything exist?
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID:
>	<926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B41 at mail.emerson.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="Windows-1252"
>
>didn't Mallarme offer the ultimate answer to this. . .
>
>"Everything in the world exists in order to end up in a book."
>
>that's good enough for the old knotthead. . .
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 13
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:47:40 EDT
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, I told you so...
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Message-ID: <1c1.2d4b04bb.301ad6ac at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1535918,00.html?gusrc=rss
>
>Park seeks poet laureate
>
>David Ward
>Tuesday July 26, 2005
>The Guardian
>
>Britain's most-visited national park launches a competition this week to find
>its own poet laureate to express "the unique spirit" of the Peak District,
>and "what it means to live, work or visit there".
>Entries are open to anyone ranging from bedroom EJ Thribbs to professionals.
>
>"We want someone who takes poetry very seriously," said Charles Monkhouse of
>Arts in the Peak, which is organising the contest. "We are looking for a
>contemporary voice, someone who sees the problems of the Peak as well as its
>pastoral beauties - a post-modern voice rather than one that is looking back."
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 14
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:05:45 EDT
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Some Wackos [WS]
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Message-ID: <1c8.2da7e4d3.301adae9 at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I was in St. Louis this week and stopped by a used book
>store on Delmar...Subterranean Books...and I picked up
>_Alias Shakespeare_ by Jos. Sobran. I'll report back on
>my findings...so far his arguments against Will we know
>and love are pretty thin and he seems to contradict himself
>on every other page. I'm keeping an open mind though and
>the writing is quick and journalistic, not at all turgid.
>Finnegan
>
>
>In a message dated 7/26/2005 12:14:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes:
>Here are just a few "ignorant wackos" who are on record as rejecting or
>strongly doubting the Stratfordian claim. Classisists all, I presume:
>
>Ralph Waldo Emerson; Walt Whitman; Mark Twain; Charles Dickens; Henry
>James; Sigmund Freud; Supreme Court Justices John Paul Stevens, Harry
>Blackmun, and Lewis Powell; Orson Welles; Charlie Chaplin; Sir John
>Gielgud; Richard Crinkley, former Director of Educational Programming
>for the Folger Shakespeare Library; Mark Rylance, Artistic Director, the
>Globe Theatre.
>
>Kent
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 15
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:23:00 EDT
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Message-ID: <9.48ea6c69.301adef4 at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>In a message dated 7/28/2005 1:42:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>mandolin at mac.com writes:
>
>IANAP -- but on the chance that you're really interested in what people think
>on the matter, the only answer that's ever made sense for me is radical
>contingency. Everything that can happen does, given enough time and 
>space, and once
>replicators get going, Darwinian selection wildly accelerates exploration of
>some possibilities in particular environments while closing off others. And I
>think Suzanne Langer was right to claim that an animal ALWAYS does everything
>it can, though I'd broaden that from animals to all living things.
>
>Mike S
>Mike, are you giving "life" more elbow room to colonize
>and proliferate than you would give to "poetry"?
>Finnegan
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 16
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:39:43 -0400
>From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tad, I told you so...
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <002601c593de$68105210$6401a8c0 at MoleHQ>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Yeah, but you didn't say anything about the bedroom EJ Thribbs.
>
>
>Tad Richards
>www.opus40.org
>http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: JforJames at aol.com
>   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:47 PM
>   Subject: [New-Poetry] Tad, I told you so...
>
>
>   
>
>   http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1535918,00.html?gusrc=rss
>
>   
>
>   Park seeks poet laureate
>
>   
>
>   David Ward
>
>   Tuesday July 26, 2005
>
>   The Guardian
>
>   
>
>   Britain's most-visited national park launches a competition this 
>week to find its own poet laureate to express "the unique spirit" of 
>the Peak District, and "what it means to live, work or visit there".
>
>   Entries are open to anyone ranging from bedroom EJ Thribbs to professionals.
>
>   
>
>   "We want someone who takes poetry very seriously," said Charles 
>Monkhouse of Arts in the Peak, which is organising the contest. "We 
>are looking for a contemporary voice, someone who sees the problems 
>of the Peak as well as its pastoral beauties - a post-modern voice 
>rather than one that is looking back."
>
>   
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 17
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:29:00 -0400
>From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Cc: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
>Message-ID: <009a01c593e5$48131090$3a95c044 at MULDER>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
>	reply-type=response
>
>To feed the cats.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:43 AM
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>
>
>>I wonder if I could inquire of the Philosophers on this list to tell me why
>>  people exist. Why do People, Love, Children, and Leaves exist please?
>>
>>  I would like to know. I will wait with keen attention for your words.
>>
>>  Thanks.
>  >
>>
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail.
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 18
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:52:47 -0400
>From: Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <1C696119-2516-4565-BD28-802C4C736F53 at mac.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>
>On Jul 28, 2005, at 21:23 , JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>
>>  In a message dated 7/28/2005 1:42:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>>  mandolin at mac.com writes:
>>
>>  IANAP -- but on the chance that you're really interested in what 
>>  people think on the matter, the only answer that's ever made sense 
>>  for me is radical contingency. Everything that can happen does, 
>>  given enough time and space, and once replicators get going, 
>>  Darwinian selection wildly accelerates exploration of some 
>>  possibilities in particular environments while closing off others. 
>>  And I think Suzanne Langer was right to claim that an animal ALWAYS 
>>  does everything it can, though I'd broaden that from animals to all 
>>  living things.
>>
>>  Mike S
>>  Mike, are you giving "life" more elbow room to colonize
>>  and proliferate than you would give to "poetry"?
>>  Finnegan
>
>Depends on what you're asking.
>
>One answer is that poetry is a human activity, constrained by human 
>abilities and by human conventions, and humans are a tiny subset of 
>living things and living variety, even on this planet. Even if 
>"poetry" comes to mean something entirely different, whatever is 
>meant by that word at that time in whatever language will be 
>similarly constrained. And because of the kind of animal we are, as 
>long as we continue as that same kind of animal there'll be 
>something, whatever it's called, that works a lot like what we now 
>call poetry works. When we go extinct or our descendants change in 
>ways that preclude the making of those kinds of things, poetry goes 
>away. Life goes on long after us until heat death or proton decay or 
>the big crunch or something we haven't yet imagined, and in the 
>meantime there's rpobably more variety among the different kinds of 
>beetles than there is among the different kinds of poems.
>
>Having said that, the human mind is easily among the most complex 
>possible things in the universe.
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 19
>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:05:00 -0400
>From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <0963776cdb6a98773e7c842d8cc37352 at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
>I thought that Vonnegut settled all this. People exist
>on earth only to provide a spare part for that
>Tralfamadorian spaceship hovering out there
>waiting for its delivery so that it can complete its
>trans-galactic mission, which really has nothing
>to do with any of us.
>
>Hal
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 20
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:26:01 -0500 (EST)
>From: kpaul mallasch <kpaul at mallasch.com>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Raymond Carver
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <20050728232352.L43298 at kpaul.spinweb.net>
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>Raymond Carver - The Cobweb
>
>A few minutes ago, I stepped onto the deck
>of the house. From there I could see and hear the water,
>and everything that's happened to me all these years.
>It was hot and still. The tide was out.
>No birds sang. As I leaned against the railing
>a cobweb touched my forehead.
>It caught in my hair. No one can blame me that I turned
>and went inside. There was no wind. The sea
>was dead calm. I hung the cobweb from the lampshade.
>Where I watch it shudder now and then when my breath
>touches it. A fine thread. Intricate.
>Before long, before anyone realizes,
>I'll be gone from here.
>
>
>-----------------
>
>Raymond Carver - Your Dog Dies
>
>it gets run over by a van.
>you find it at the side of the road
>and bury it.
>you feel bad about it.
>you feel bad personally,
>but you feel bad for your daughter
>because it was her pet,
>and she loved it so.
>she used to croon to it
>and let it sleep in her bed.
>you write a poem about it.
>you call it a poem for your daughter,
>about the dog getting run over by a van
>and how you looked after it,
>took it out into the woods
>and buried it deep, deep,
>and that poem turns out so good
>you're almost glad the little dog
>was run over, or else you'd never
>have written that good poem.
>then you sit down to write
>a poem about writing a poem
>about the death of that dog,
>but while you're writing you
>hear a woman scream
>your name, your first name,
>both syllables,
>and your heart stops.
>after a minute, you continue writing.
>she screams again.
>you wonder how long this can go on.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 21
>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:19:41 +0800
>From: ELEMENOPE Productions <elemenope at icubed.com>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Message-ID: <a05100306bf0f6b0c797b@[204.215.201.141]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed"
>
>I am New Jersey, I am Walt Whitman, I am a hologram and within me are
>all of us, and each of us, and within each of us are any and all of
>us.  I am Asbury Park before the Great Society arrived when happy and
>blinking like Christmas in July before Christmas was outlawed by the
>ACLU.  I am writing prose, but you never know, at any moment what you
>are reading may by some metempsychotic fit transubstantiate into
>poetry, even though it can never get verse.
>
>R i c h a r d   D i l l o n
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Jul 27, 2005, at 2:00 PM, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>>
>>>>   ?Poetry is a state of language into which verse or prose may turn.
>>
>>Ah, but so is New Jersey!
>>
>>Hal
>>
>>
>
>--
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 22
>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <20050729080208.76421.qmail at web40428.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>>  Having said that, the human mind is easily among the
>>  most complex 
>>  possible things in the universe.
>>
>don?t you think that this is really a very arrogant
>statement?  do you claim to know the totality of
>things in the Universe?  as far as we know, it is and
>it could be that it really is as complex as you
>suggest but if it is so complex then why do we still
>have capitalism or flush toilets or tin cans or
>processed peas?  tell me that
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
>Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
>http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 23
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:02:19 -0400
>From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Little J. A.
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <42E963FB.31792.5D538A at localhost>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>On 28 Jul 2005 at 18:23, Bob Grumman wrote:
>>  ...[Marcus] says (elsewhere), "Wouldn't you imagine an actual,  a real,
>>  revolutionary in the field of poetry, would be saying 'Shakeswho? Fuck
>>  him. He's OLD. Burn his crap, man -- listen to THIS.'" 
>
>>  You know, I really don't know how to answer this.  It seems too insane
>>  to get hold of.  I do think I'm doing something different.  I don't think
>>  I'm particularly revolutionary.  But If I am, how am I contradicting my
>>  revolutionary intent by acknowledging the greatness of the works that
>>  led to mine?<
>
>I don't claim that you or Kent cannot _acknowledge_ that something
>came before -- it's that I don't see how it's possible to claim to love, to
>really love and respect, the kinds of poems that your own creative works
>depart so radically from. If you really really think that mathemaku is
>really poetry, then Shakespeare can't be.
>
>>   I suppose maybe if I were stupid enough to claim that my
>>  mathemaku did everything Shakespeare's poems did AND MORE, it
>>  would follow that I thought his works superfluous. <
>
>But this is the claim that you DO make, as I understand it. It is your
>contention that new poetry is better poetry by virtue of being new, in the
>same way the Fosbury Flop was a new and better way to get over the
>high jump. That's your own comparison. It is your explicit claim that new
>is better, because, as new techniques lead to higher jumps in the high
>jump, so new techniques lead to better poems in poetry.
>
>>  But I'm just doing works I hope will do as much for their . . . engagents
>>  (I'm still trying for a term that is more general than "reader") as
>>  Shakespeare's poems--in a different way.  Why can't someone
>>  sincerely want to do that, and what makes it necessarily a  foolish
>>  desire?
>
>Because you view poetry as a competitive event, with new techniques
>replacing old techniques, doing better work. It's not a matter of building
>on old traditions, it's a matter of replacing those traditions with new
>techniques -- ever new techniques, it seems, too. You may not have
>thought of it yet, but your poems must suffer the same fate as those
>poems your poems replace as newer poets invent yet newer techniques
>even than yours. Poetry, for you, according to your own metaphors and
>arguments, is a matter of a progression of new techniques that
>progressively replace one another, making the previous techniques
>unusably old-fashioned and uncompetitive with the new.
>
>>  "But they don't. They purport to love the works that their own work
>>  shows they must disdain in order to do their own work," Marcus goes
>on to say.<
>
>>  As a creative artist, I do prefer not to copy the work of my
>>  predecessors.  How does that make me a disdainer of it?<
>
>Because your metaphors and arguments are explicit: you view the old
>poetry the way you view the old way to do the high jump, as
>uncompetitively old-fashioned.
>
>>   Is everyone who makes other kinds of formal lyric poems than
>>  Shakespearean sonnets disdaining Shakespeare?<
>
>No, because other people don't hold, as you do hold, that new
>techniques replace old poetry with the new poetry of the new
>techniques. My question is why would you, as a committed revolutionary
>who truly believes that new techniques inevitably lead to better poems,
>poems that are as much better than their predescessors as high jumps
>with the Flop are better than high jumps without it, why would YOU want
>to have anything to do with what you must view as a failed and obsolete
>poetry such as Shakespeare's?
>
>>   How does a belief
>>  that a combination of a mathematical operation with a verbal image
>>  can work as poetry come off as a belief that not doing this cannot work
>>  as poetry?<
>
>Your view is that your new techniques REPLACE the old techniques,
>make them obsolete and uncompetitively old-fashioned. Your view has
>never been that your, or other's, new techniques are merely
>experimental or are exploring the odd corners of an old tradition. No,
>you've always held that new techniques REPLACE the old techniques
>because the new techniques are better, and produce better poems.
>
>>  "I don't say it's not possible to appreciate different kinds of art -- I say
>>  that it's not possible to hold that Shakespeare through Tennyson to
>>  Wilbur is brilliant, wonderful stuff and still do work the fundamental
>>  tenets of which are that everything from Shakespeare through
>>  Tennyson to Wilbur is worthless."
>
>>  Dan Schneider recently posted that I was "an old psychotic who
>believes that poems must contain visual elements because words alone
>are no longer enough," or something close to that.  (He did call me both
>psychotic and old.)  I asked him to show where I said anything that could
>lead anyone sane to believe that.  He ignored the request.  All I can say
>is that I believe there are lots of ways to make first-rate poems. 
>Shakespeare had a few ways, I have a few ways.  They don't oppose
>each other.  Or, if they do, I'd be very interested in learning how.  <
>
>This is diametrically opposed to everything else you've ever said on this
>heading. You have been holding forth for years now that I've known you
>that new techniques REPLACE old techniques, as the Fosbury Flop
>replaced the scissor jump, because the new techniques necessarily lead
>to better poems as the flop lead to higher jumps. To now say that you've
>never said such a thing is preposterous. Have you changed your mind?
>
>>  What I disparage, sometimes intemperately and foolishly, is doing
>>  nothing as a poet that other poets haven't already done.  <
>
>And now you contradict yourself explicitly: here you claim just the
>opposite of what you claimed above. Now you're saying again that it
>must be new or it's worthless, that you disparage it. You can't have it
>both ways, Bob -- either there are first-rate poems to be written in the
>old way or there are not. If there are, then there is no necessary
>progression in the development of poetry, no "fosbury flop" of a new
>technique that can replace the old style by necessarily producing better
>poems.  If there is such a progression and replacement, then you can't
>reasonably hold that there are first-rate poems that don't use new
>techniques.
>
>Marcus
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 24
>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:38:32 -0400
>From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <42E9CEE8.20748.1A758F at localhost>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>Why people exist? Top predator is a dirty job, but someone has to do it -
>- people have the job until some meaner smarter or luckier predator
>comes along.
>
>Marcus
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 46
>******************************************


-- 



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul 29 12:24:40 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:24:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dan Gerber
Message-ID: <00bd01c5945a$0554d3e0$0f8d3052@ANNY>

The Rain Poured Down

My mother weeping 
in the dark hallway, in the arms of a man, 
not my father, 
as I sat at the top of the stairs unnoticed-- 
my mother weeping and pleading for what I didn't know 
then and can still only imagine-- 
for things to be somehow other than they were, 
not knowing what I would change, 
for, or to, or why, 
only that my mother was weeping 
in the arms of a man not me, 
and the rain brought down the winter sky 
and hid me in the walls that looked on, 
indifferent to my mother's weeping, 
or mine, 
in the rain that brought down the dark afternoon. 


Dan Gerber

_______________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul 29 17:38:07 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:38:07 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: New book in Modern & Contemporary Poetics
Message-ID: <015301c59485$cf216280$0f8d3052@ANNY>

(the .pdf is safe) - AB

Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:11 PM
Subject: New book in Modern & Contemporary Poetics


Dear Colleague,


Attached to this e-mail message, please find a pdf file announcing the newest book in the University of Alabama Press's Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series, Dissonance (if you are interested), by Rosmarie Waldrop. Charles Bernstein and Hank Lazer, editors of the series, thought you would be interested in knowing of its publication. If you're interested in purchasing a copy for your personal library, the attached flyer includes a 30% discount offer, good through September 5, 2005.


Thank you for your time,


Dennis Lloyd
Assistant Marketing Manager/Publicist
University of Alabama Press




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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     Date:  29 Jul 2005, 15:34
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jul 30 06:39:24 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:39:24 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] a farce
Message-ID: <003301c594f2$f468c2f0$e6ae3252@ANNY>

>From another mailing list, sent by Patrickulus McManus_ you do not need to read it all, a couple of lines give the idea, :-)

How many internet newsgroup subscribers does it take to change a light bulb?

1,331 !! 
1 to successfully change the light bulb and to post to the newsgroup that
the light bulb has been changed. 
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
bulb could have been changed differently. 
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 
27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.

53 to flame the spell checkers. 
6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb". 
6 to condemn those 6 as puerile. 
156 to write to the newsgroup moderator complaining about the light bulb
discussion and its inappropriateness to this newsgroup. 
41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 
109 to post that this newsgroup is not about light bulbs and to please take
this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb. 
203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and
alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 
111 to defend the posting to this newsgroup saying that we are all use
lightbulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this newsgroup. 
306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy
the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
technique, and what brands are faulty. 
27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. 
14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected
URLs. 
3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this
newsgroup which makes light bulbs relevant to this newsgroup. 
33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers
and footers, and then add "Me Too." 
12 to post to the newsgroup that they are unsubscribing because they cannot
handle the light bulb controversy. 
19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 
4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 
44 to ask "What is a FAQ?" 
4 to say "Isn't there always a FAQ on Usenet?" 
43 to ask "What's a Usenet?" 
41 to propose a new newsgroup alt.change.lite.bulb. 
47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, send it
there.


___________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat Jul 30 08:03:15 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:03:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
In-Reply-To: <001301c5929a$07f5b810$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <a05100300bf0d00992e1a@[204.215.201.166]>
	<001301c5929a$07f5b810$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1122724995.31001.25.camel@malatesta>

On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 06:57 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote:
> But, Richard, what do the utterances of a second-rate dictionary have
> to do with what poetry is?

That's the best dictionary the U.S. has to offer (the other "Websters"
are just impossibly bad).  But I suppose it is second rate compared to
the OED.

Your point about its not being very telling in this debate stands: we
define what poetry, and dictionaries, even the best ones, merely
document that definition.

Of course, it takes a lot of heave to change the definition of a word as
old as "poetry".

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jul 30 07:51:16 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:51:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a farce
References: <003301c594f2$f468c2f0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <002301c594ff$1971b1e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

This leaves out the ones who compare the pro-lightbulb group to Hitler, and the ones who compare the anti-lightbulb group to Hitler.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org-
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:39 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] a farce


  From another mailing list, sent by Patrickulus McManus_ you do not need to read it all, a couple of lines give the idea, :-)

  How many internet newsgroup subscribers does it take to change a light bulb?

  1,331 !! 
  1 to successfully change the light bulb and to post to the newsgroup that
  the light bulb has been changed. 
  14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
  bulb could have been changed differently. 
  7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 
  27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.

  53 to flame the spell checkers. 
  6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb". 
  6 to condemn those 6 as puerile. 
  156 to write to the newsgroup moderator complaining about the light bulb
  discussion and its inappropriateness to this newsgroup. 
  41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 
  109 to post that this newsgroup is not about light bulbs and to please take
  this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb. 
  203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and
  alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 
  111 to defend the posting to this newsgroup saying that we are all use
  lightbulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this newsgroup. 
  306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy
  the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
  technique, and what brands are faulty. 
  27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. 
  14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected
  URLs. 
  3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this
  newsgroup which makes light bulbs relevant to this newsgroup. 
  33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers
  and footers, and then add "Me Too." 
  12 to post to the newsgroup that they are unsubscribing because they cannot
  handle the light bulb controversy. 
  19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 
  4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 
  44 to ask "What is a FAQ?" 
  4 to say "Isn't there always a FAQ on Usenet?" 
  43 to ask "What's a Usenet?" 
  41 to propose a new newsgroup alt.change.lite.bulb. 
  47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, send it
  there.


  ___________________________________________
  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat Jul 30 08:18:44 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:18:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
	<3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
	<11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 20:28 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> The greatest mistake of scientists is of not having understood it.

Absolutely not.

/me points at the anthropic principle, which is basically the 20th
century refinement of the fact that scientists have emphatically *not*
tried to understand "why people exist".  The OP asked philosophers, not
scientists, and any scientist would have told you immediately that he is
right to do so, and that sneering at them the way you have is like
sneering at the pope for not being able to advance the field of Quantum
Chromodynamics, or sneering at Gengis Khan for not doing anything about
the razing of slums in present-day Zimbabwe.

The greatest mistake of non scientists (too often poets and preachers),
is in inflating the imperatives and prerogatives of scientists.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat Jul 30 08:30:11 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:30:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
In-Reply-To: <007601c592e4$33d93980$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <200507271242.j6RCgFRe002231@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100300bf0d6c305787@[204.215.201.73]>
	<007601c592e4$33d93980$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1122726611.31001.47.camel@malatesta>

On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 15:48 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Sorry, Richard, but I'm with Robin on dictionaries.  They have many
> good uses, but the provision of definitions of the highest value is
> not one of them.  I find the definitions the American Heritage gives
> for "poetry" close to worthless, however I may agree with parts of a
> few, but I'm biased against usage dictionaries, preferring
> dictionaries, if such exist, that define words intelligently.

Ah.  The good old rex solipsi definition of "intelligently"--"adv. such
that I happen to agree".  And I suppose you would then impose your
definitions on the masses on pain of a caning on their exposed buttocks,
while wearing a conical hat.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jul 30 08:47:42 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:47:42 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu>
	<42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost><3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu><11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY>
	<1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY>

I hope you'll understand the irony behind it all, besides that there is a 
sneering from my side _ due to facts more than to a detached philosophical 
consideration. Interesting anyhow to see how involved you are in sciences, 
welcome they are whenever they succeed, as much as poets whenever a good 
poem shows up.


From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:18 PM


> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 20:28 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> The greatest mistake of scientists is of not having understood it.
>
> Absolutely not.
>
> /me points at the anthropic principle, which is basically the 20th
> century refinement of the fact that scientists have emphatically *not*
> tried to understand "why people exist".  The OP asked philosophers, not
> scientists, and any scientist would have told you immediately that he is
> right to do so, and that sneering at them the way you have is like
> sneering at the pope for not being able to advance the field of Quantum
> Chromodynamics, or sneering at Gengis Khan for not doing anything about
> the razing of slums in present-day Zimbabwe.
>
> The greatest mistake of non scientists (too often poets and preachers),
> is in inflating the imperatives and prerogatives of scientists.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From snakecharmer at gmail.com  Sat Jul 30 09:22:33 2005
From: snakecharmer at gmail.com (Donna Casinghino)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:22:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a farce
In-Reply-To: <002301c594ff$1971b1e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <003301c594f2$f468c2f0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
	<002301c594ff$1971b1e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <33abf27505073006224faf0e82@mail.gmail.com>

Don't forget the inevitable sexist battle of whose job it should be to 
change the light bulb, and why.


On 7/30/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
> 
> This leaves out the ones who compare the pro-lightbulb group to Hitler, 
> and the ones who compare the anti-lightbulb group to Hitler.
>  Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>-
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> 
> *To:* New Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:39 AM
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] a farce
> 
> From another mailing list, sent by Patrickulus McManus_ you do not need to 
> read it all, a couple of lines give the idea, :-)
>  *How many internet newsgroup subscribers does it take to change a light 
> bulb*?
> 
> 1,331 !! 
> 1 to successfully change the light bulb and to post to the newsgroup that
> the light bulb has been changed. 
> 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
> bulb could have been changed differently. 
> 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 
> 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light 
> bulbs.
> 
> 53 to flame the spell checkers. 
> 6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb". 
> 6 to condemn those 6 as puerile. 
> 156 to write to the newsgroup moderator complaining about the light bulb
> discussion and its inappropriateness to this newsgroup. 
> 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 
> 109 to post that this newsgroup is not about light bulbs and to please 
> take
> this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb. 
> 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and
> alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 
> 111 to defend the posting to this newsgroup saying that we are all use
> lightbulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this newsgroup. 
> 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to 
> buy
> the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
> technique, and what brands are faulty. 
> 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. 
> 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected
> URLs. 
> 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this
> newsgroup which makes light bulbs relevant to this newsgroup. 
> 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers
> and footers, and then add "Me Too." 
> 12 to post to the newsgroup that they are unsubscribing because they 
> cannot
> handle the light bulb controversy. 
> 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 
> 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 
> 44 to ask "What is a FAQ?" 
> 4 to say "Isn't there always a FAQ on Usenet?" 
> 43 to ask "What's a Usenet?" 
> 41 to propose a new newsgroup alt.change.lite.bulb. 
> 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, send it
> there.
>  ___________________________________________
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing 
> star! 
> Friedrich Nietzsche 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under 't. --Macbeth I:v
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Jul 30 09:26:43 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:26:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu>
	<42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost><3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu><11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY>
	<1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta>
	<007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <39b3f371086cceab1f8e208c634699ed@earthlink.net>


On Jul 30, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> I hope you'll understand the irony behind it all, besides that there 
> is a sneering from my side _ due to facts more than to a detached 
> philosophical consideration. Interesting anyhow to see how involved 
> you are in sciences, welcome they are whenever they succeed, as much 
> as poets whenever a good poem shows up.

Methinks the values of mistakes, failures, etc. are being
undersung here.

Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jul 30 09:49:01 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:49:01 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu><42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost><3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu><11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY><1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta><007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
	<39b3f371086cceab1f8e208c634699ed@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00aa01c5950d$720c7660$e6ae3252@ANNY>

I understand your point, as a teacher I use mistakes as departing points. 
There are anyhow irreparable mistakes. Yes, we are many and in the average 
someone has to pay for things to progress and the aim justifies the means 
(Machiavelli - perfectly right), but

but

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 3:26 PM


>
> On Jul 30, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>> I hope you'll understand the irony behind it all, besides that there is a 
>> sneering from my side _ due to facts more than to a detached 
>> philosophical consideration. Interesting anyhow to see how involved you 
>> are in sciences, welcome they are whenever they succeed, as much as poets 
>> whenever a good poem shows up.
>
> Methinks the values of mistakes, failures, etc. are being
> undersung here.
>
> Hal   Serving the tristate area.
>
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From hruggier at localnet.com  Sat Jul 30 12:38:52 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:38:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a farce
References: <003301c594f2$f468c2f0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <007201c59525$2bcf1f50$650d9942@Helen>

And the ones who say that it never happened - the lightbulb was never there to begin with 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:39 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] a farce


  From another mailing list, sent by Patrickulus McManus_ you do not need to read it all, a couple of lines give the idea, :-)

  How many internet newsgroup subscribers does it take to change a light bulb?

  1,331 !! 
  1 to successfully change the light bulb and to post to the newsgroup that
  the light bulb has been changed. 
  14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
  bulb could have been changed differently. 
  7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 
  27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.

  53 to flame the spell checkers. 
  6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb". 
  6 to condemn those 6 as puerile. 
  156 to write to the newsgroup moderator complaining about the light bulb
  discussion and its inappropriateness to this newsgroup. 
  41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 
  109 to post that this newsgroup is not about light bulbs and to please take
  this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb. 
  203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and
  alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 
  111 to defend the posting to this newsgroup saying that we are all use
  lightbulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this newsgroup. 
  306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy
  the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
  technique, and what brands are faulty. 
  27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. 
  14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected
  URLs. 
  3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this
  newsgroup which makes light bulbs relevant to this newsgroup. 
  33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers
  and footers, and then add "Me Too." 
  12 to post to the newsgroup that they are unsubscribing because they cannot
  handle the light bulb controversy. 
  19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 
  4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 
  44 to ask "What is a FAQ?" 
  4 to say "Isn't there always a FAQ on Usenet?" 
  43 to ask "What's a Usenet?" 
  41 to propose a new newsgroup alt.change.lite.bulb. 
  47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, send it
  there.


  ___________________________________________
  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From uche at ogbuji.net  Sat Jul 30 12:56:20 2005
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:56:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
	<3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
	<11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY>
	<1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta>
	<007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1122742581.31001.52.camel@malatesta>

On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 14:47 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> I hope you'll understand the irony behind it all, besides that there is a 
> sneering from my side _ due to facts more than to a detached philosophical 
> consideration. Interesting anyhow to see how involved you are in sciences, 
> welcome they are whenever they succeed, as much as poets whenever a good 
> poem shows up.

I did understand that you had your tongue at least partly in cheek (the
"it's all about leaves" was a bit of a giveaway), but I was more
concerned with the improper association of science with such questions
in the first place.  Perhaps I was too quick to spot sneering, but I'm a
bit sensitive to the topic these days, what with the right wing reagent
attack on science blazing on all fronts.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jul 30 13:20:29 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:20:29 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu>
	<42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost><3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu><11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY><1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta><007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
	<1122742581.31001.52.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <013b01c5952a$fbff3a20$e6ae3252@ANNY>


One more message and I will finally get out of here, translating a contract 
is not the best way to smile to life. I realize you have incredible 
technical skills, thus please accept my

_Lament_

what would I do without the internet
caught & strangled by petty chat
locked at the bottom of valleys in a tiny town
where the one upstairs gets out in her night gown
_good morning_ you hear but that's more an
_how can you please me - thing danging
in your ears before coffee time

ah the net with all those multiple facets
am I speaking is it you you said it or I?

I would weep from here to the Nile
should my screen wink and say good-bye


A nice Saturday, and thanks Uche for bringing it all up,
Anny

From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:56 PM


> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 14:47 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> I hope you'll understand the irony behind it all, besides that there is a
>> sneering from my side _ due to facts more than to a detached 
>> philosophical
>> consideration. Interesting anyhow to see how involved you are in 
>> sciences,
>> welcome they are whenever they succeed, as much as poets whenever a good
>> poem shows up.
>
> I did understand that you had your tongue at least partly in cheek (the
> "it's all about leaves" was a bit of a giveaway), but I was more
> concerned with the improper association of science with such questions
> in the first place.  Perhaps I was too quick to spot sneering, but I'm a
> bit sensitive to the topic these days, what with the right wing reagent
> attack on science blazing on all fronts.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
> 



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Jul 30 13:25:10 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:25:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] review of Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz
Message-ID: <s2eb71c8.094@mail.highland.edu>

I was just told of this very energetic commentary on Lyric Poetry after
Auschwitz, the first review to appear so far (though the book only came
back from the printers a week ago!). It's by Chris Daniels, one of the
finest translators of Portuguese-language poetry in the US.

Should anyone on the list have a serious interest in considering a
review of the book (pro or con, in print or on blog), please b-c your
address and I will arrange to have a copy sent to you.

Kent


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Jul 30 13:32:57 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:32:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] review link
Message-ID: <s2eb738e.097@mail.highland.edu>

Sorry.

http://texfiles.blogspot.com/


From elemenope at icubed.com  Sat Jul 30 14:26:19 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:26:19 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Genghis Khan's Definition of Poetry
Message-ID: <a05100304bf1175ab594f@[204.215.202.67]>

Ghengis Khan would be preferable to the monster idiot, Mugabe.  G.K. 
recognized and rewarded talent and competency.  Mugabe destroys it in 
the name of what-you-want-to-call-it "Thug-Utopianism."  G.K. wd hv 
known what to do with Al Q, as well.  Come to think of it, G.K. wd hv 
known what to do with Senator MoonBat Durbin.  Yeah.  Bring back the 
Khans, Genghis and Kublai.  And, Coleridge, bring him back, too!

As to this:

>Your point about its not being very telling in this debate stands: we
>define what poetry, and dictionaries, even the best ones, merely
>document that definition.

I didn't extract my definition from the dictionary.

Read the entire thread and read my post more closely; deal with it, 
if you care, on its own terms.  The dictionary is merely a tool. 
Other ways exist to get to the same evaluation, and its the 
evaluation that is apposite not the ad hominem-like non sequitors.

He didn't make a point, he avoided dealing with the answer to his 
question, and sided with those who prefer to argue with him for the 
sake of argument.  The "Dictionary" per se isn't the issue, just as 
killing the messenger, or arguing ad hominem, doesn't refute the 
message.  I've said this twice, but won't say it again.

So, I still win.  But, so what.  It's a tough job being a Khan.

R.D.
-- 


From mandolin at mac.com  Sat Jul 30 14:35:36 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:35:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <1122742581.31001.52.camel@malatesta>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
	<3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
	<11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY>
	<1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta>
	<007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
	<1122742581.31001.52.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <06E3C08B-F7D7-432C-984B-6EA26C0D26C5@mac.com>


On Jul 30, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Uche Ogbuji wrote:

> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 14:47 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
>> I hope you'll understand the irony behind it all, besides that  
>> there is a
>> sneering from my side _ due to facts more than to a detached  
>> philosophical
>> consideration. Interesting anyhow to see how involved you are in  
>> sciences,
>> welcome they are whenever they succeed, as much as poets whenever  
>> a good
>> poem shows up.
>>
>
> I did understand that you had your tongue at least partly in cheek  
> (the
> "it's all about leaves" was a bit of a giveaway), but I was more
> concerned with the improper association of science with such questions
> in the first place.  Perhaps I was too quick to spot sneering, but  
> I'm a
> bit sensitive to the topic these days, what with the right wing  
> reagent
> attack on science blazing on all fronts.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com


Uche, I sympathize with your desire to insulate scientific work from  
the bizarre morality of the religious right, but in fact science  
answers "why" questions all the time -- including "Why are there  
people?"  -- usually by turning them into "how" questions and  
demonstrating that intention, divine or not, has little or nothing to  
do with what's going on. People are here because of physical law and  
history unfolding in acordance with that law. Like Topsy, they "just  
grew."

Science can't (yet?) answer why physical law is what it is, at least  
not for things like the fundamental constants, but nothing else has  
any chance at all of answering such a question. Some god may have set  
them, but if that's the case it's something we'll never be able to  
know by any means. Even if the thing made the claim directly to us,  
what would constitute sufficient evidence?

Look at Daniel Dennet's Freedom Evolves for some of the implications  
of scientific work, especially in evolutionary theory, for things  
like free will.

Mike S.


From clitophon at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 30 15:44:17 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:44:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <06E3C08B-F7D7-432C-984B-6EA26C0D26C5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050730194417.10805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>

why do you make the connection between science and law
in phrases as ?scientific laws??  This implies that
the Universe has certain principles which we discover
(ie not invent)

--- Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

> 
> On Jul 30, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 14:47 +0200, Anny Ballardini
> wrote:
> >
> >> I hope you'll understand the irony behind it all,
> besides that  
> >> there is a
> >> sneering from my side _ due to facts more than to
> a detached  
> >> philosophical
> >> consideration. Interesting anyhow to see how
> involved you are in  
> >> sciences,
> >> welcome they are whenever they succeed, as much
> as poets whenever  
> >> a good
> >> poem shows up.
> >>
> >
> > I did understand that you had your tongue at least
> partly in cheek  
> > (the
> > "it's all about leaves" was a bit of a giveaway),
> but I was more
> > concerned with the improper association of science
> with such questions
> > in the first place.  Perhaps I was too quick to
> spot sneering, but  
> > I'm a
> > bit sensitive to the topic these days, what with
> the right wing  
> > reagent
> > attack on science blazing on all fronts.
> >
> > -- 
> > Uche Ogbuji
> > uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net  
> http://copia.ogbuji.net
> > Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  
> http://Fourthought.com
> 
> 
> Uche, I sympathize with your desire to insulate
> scientific work from  
> the bizarre morality of the religious right, but in
> fact science  
> answers "why" questions all the time -- including
> "Why are there  
> people?"  -- usually by turning them into "how"
> questions and  
> demonstrating that intention, divine or not, has
> little or nothing to  
> do with what's going on. People are here because of
> physical law and  
> history unfolding in acordance with that law. Like
> Topsy, they "just  
> grew."
> 
> Science can't (yet?) answer why physical law is what
> it is, at least  
> not for things like the fundamental constants, but
> nothing else has  
> any chance at all of answering such a question. Some
> god may have set  
> them, but if that's the case it's something we'll
> never be able to  
> know by any means. Even if the thing made the claim
> directly to us,  
> what would constitute sufficient evidence?
> 
> Look at Daniel Dennet's Freedom Evolves for some of
> the implications  
> of scientific work, especially in evolutionary
> theory, for things  
> like free will.
> 
> Mike S.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 


From EsSchwager at aol.com  Sat Jul 30 16:11:54 2005
From: EsSchwager at aol.com (EsSchwager at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:11:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] review of Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz
Message-ID: <75.4a411ab4.301d390a@aol.com>

Kent,
 
I would be interested in reviewing the book. I have a book of poems out -  "I 
Want Your Chair" by  Rattapallax Press,. 2000. Many of the poems are  related 
to the Holocaust, written from the point of 2nd generation.
 
My address is:
 
Elaine Schwager
228 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
 
 
212 807-1225
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From mandolin at mac.com  Sat Jul 30 16:18:40 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:18:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <20050730194417.10805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050730194417.10805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0ED7A039-6DD6-4381-BEBD-DDD58574A301@mac.com>


On Jul 30, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Paul Murphy wrote:

> why do you make the connection between science and law
> in phrases as ?scientific laws??  This implies that
> the Universe has certain principles which we discover
> (ie not invent)


Exactly. The laws as we state them are certainly not complete and  
will always be approximations, but the scientific method ensures that  
they will asymptotically approach completeness and accuracy.  We  
invent hypotheses about physical law, but then we test them and  
discard or modify those that fail, and use both failure and success  
to guide further exploration of the real world out there, which does  
not in any way depend on us for its reality. We're well on the way to  
discovering how it works.


>
> --- Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Jul 30, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 14:47 +0200, Anny Ballardini
>>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I hope you'll understand the irony behind it all,
>>>>
>> besides that
>>
>>>> there is a
>>>> sneering from my side _ due to facts more than to
>>>>
>> a detached
>>
>>>> philosophical
>>>> consideration. Interesting anyhow to see how
>>>>
>> involved you are in
>>
>>>> sciences,
>>>> welcome they are whenever they succeed, as much
>>>>
>> as poets whenever
>>
>>>> a good
>>>> poem shows up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I did understand that you had your tongue at least
>>>
>> partly in cheek
>>
>>> (the
>>> "it's all about leaves" was a bit of a giveaway),
>>>
>> but I was more
>>
>>> concerned with the improper association of science
>>>
>> with such questions
>>
>>> in the first place.  Perhaps I was too quick to
>>>
>> spot sneering, but
>>
>>> I'm a
>>> bit sensitive to the topic these days, what with
>>>
>> the right wing
>>
>>> reagent
>>> attack on science blazing on all fronts.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Uche Ogbuji
>>> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net
>>>
>> http://copia.ogbuji.net
>>
>>> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com
>>>
>> http://Fourthought.com
>>
>>
>> Uche, I sympathize with your desire to insulate
>> scientific work from
>> the bizarre morality of the religious right, but in
>> fact science
>> answers "why" questions all the time -- including
>> "Why are there
>> people?"  -- usually by turning them into "how"
>> questions and
>> demonstrating that intention, divine or not, has
>> little or nothing to
>> do with what's going on. People are here because of
>> physical law and
>> history unfolding in acordance with that law. Like
>> Topsy, they "just
>> grew."
>>
>> Science can't (yet?) answer why physical law is what
>> it is, at least
>> not for things like the fundamental constants, but
>> nothing else has
>> any chance at all of answering such a question. Some
>> god may have set
>> them, but if that's the case it's something we'll
>> never be able to
>> know by any means. Even if the thing made the claim
>> directly to us,
>> what would constitute sufficient evidence?
>>
>> Look at Daniel Dennet's Freedom Evolves for some of
>> the implications
>> of scientific work, especially in evolutionary
>> theory, for things
>> like free will.
>>
>> Mike S.
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Jul 30 20:15:34 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:15:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why people exist
Message-ID: <s2ebd205.022@mail.highland.edu>

Mike said:

>...the real world out there, which does not in any way depend on us
for its reality.

Well, but this doesn;t hold at the quantum level, right? And that IS a
big part of the "real world," right?


From mandolin at mac.com  Sat Jul 30 22:17:03 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:17:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why people exist
In-Reply-To: <s2ebd205.022@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2ebd205.022@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <8F3AB5CE-DD2A-43EC-8B9E-D89D2CCAAE2D@mac.com>


On Jul 30, 2005, at 8:15 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Mike said:
>
>
>> ...the real world out there, which does not in any way depend on us
>>
> for its reality.
>
> Well, but this doesn;t hold at the quantum level, right? And that IS a
> big part of the "real world," right?


Kent, observer effects in quantum mechanics , and in particular their  
relation to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and Schroedinger's  
famous cat, are frequently invoked in this way by non-physicists. But  
it's really about the limitations of our ability to measure certain  
things or events, not about whether those things exist or events  
happen.  Alan Sokal rather convincingly demonstrated that postmodern  
lirterary theorists don't haven't yet bvought a clue about quantum  
mechanics. You should enjoy that demonstration -- it was a wonderful  
hoax. (http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/)

Heisenberg showed that we can be arbitrarily accurate in our  
measurement of any particular member of certain pairs such as  
momentum and position, but that there is a lower bound for the  
uncertainty for the pair of measurements so that increasing accuracy  
in one means we acheive less accuracy in the other.  There is a good  
article in the Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
Uncertainty_principle.

With the cat it's slightly different and more difficult to summarize.  
Again from the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
Schr?dinger's_cat)

"Contrary to popular belief, Schr?dinger did not intend this thought  
experiment to indicate that he believed that the dead-alive cat would  
actually exist; rather he considered the quantum mechanical theory to  
be incomplete and not representative of reality in this case. Since a  
cat clearly must either be alive or dead (there is no state between  
alive and dead, e.g. half-dead) surely the same must be true of the  
nucleus. It must be either decayed or not decayed."

"In the Copenhagen interpretation, a system stops being a mixture of  
states and becomes either one or the other when an observation takes  
place. This experiment makes apparent the fact that the nature of  
measurement, or observation, is not well defined in this  
interpretation. Some interpret the experiment to mean that while the  
box is closed, the system simultaneously exists in a mixed  
superposition of the states "decayed nucleus/dead cat" and "undecayed  
nucleus/living cat", and that only when the box is opened and an  
observation performed does the wave function collapse into one of the  
two states. More intuitively, some feel that the "observation" is  
taken when a particle from the nucleus hits the detector. However  
(and this is a key point of the thought experiment), there isn't any  
rule within the Copenhagen interpretation that says one way or the  
other, and this interpretation of quantum mechanics is incomplete  
without such rules and explanations for how such rules come to exist.
That said, we can use the following rule of thumb: we do not see  
quantum effects in macroscopic systems (except in superfluids); thus  
if we impose a macroscopic wavefunction on a quantum state, we know  
observationally that we will destroy the superposition. While it is  
not entirely clear what qualifies something as "macroscopic", a cat  
is clearly macroscopic. Thus, the Copenhagen interpretation does not  
predict that the cat exists in a superimposed state of living and  
dead until someone opens the box."

-----------------

The gist of all  that is that "observers" do not need to be conscious  
beings, which is just common sense, of course. For the greatest part  
of the history of the universe, and certainly at the time of the Big  
Bang, when the entire universe existed only at quantum scales,  
conscious observers were plainly impossible. And yet things happened.  
Are we to believe that the long history radioactive decay of argon  
and uranium and carbon-14 we use to date our world suffers that  
entire history in the moment in which we measure them? What about the  
vast quantities of hydrogen being fused into helium in stars we have  
never observed? Does that spring into existence, say 13 billion years  
ago, when the Hubble catches that light?



As for the Anthropic Principle, almost no one takes its strong form  
seriously.

Mike S





From mandolin at mac.com  Sat Jul 30 22:22:23 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:22:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why people exist
In-Reply-To: <s2ebd205.022@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2ebd205.022@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <648402BA-D57C-4E53-BFE1-BFE713AAC341@mac.com>


On Jul 30, 2005, at 8:15 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Mike said:
>
>
>> ...the real world out there, which does not in any way depend on us
>>
> for its reality.
>
> Well, but this doesn;t hold at the quantum level, right? And that IS a
> big part of the "real world," right?


and here's another answer from Cecil Adams of Straight Dope (http:// 
www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_122.html:)

The story of Schroedinger's cat (an epic poem)

07-May-1982


Dear Cecil:

Cecil, you're my final hope
Of finding out the true Straight Dope
For I have been reading of Schroedinger's cat
But none of my cats are at all like that.
This unusual animal (so it is said)
Is simultaneously live and dead!
What I don't understand is just why he
Can't be one or other, unquestionably.
My future now hangs in between eigenstates.
In one I'm enlightened, the other I ain't.
If you understand, Cecil, then show me the way
And rescue my psyche from quantum decay.
But if this queer thing has perplexed even you,
Then I will and won't see you in Schroedinger's zoo.
--Randy F., Chicago

Dear Randy:

Schroedinger, Erwin! Professor of physics!
Wrote daring equations! Confounded his critics!
(Not bad, eh? Don't worry. This part of the verse
Starts off pretty good, but it gets a lot worse.)
Win saw that the theory that Newton'd invented
By Einstein's discov'ries had been badly dented.
What now? wailed his colleagues. Said Erwin, "Don't panic,
No grease monkey I, but a quantum mechanic.
Consider electrons. Now, these teeny articles
Are sometimes like waves, and then sometimes like particles.
If that's not confusing, the nuclear dance
Of electrons and suchlike is governed by chance!
No sweat, though--my theory permits us to judge
Where some of 'em is and the rest of 'em was."
Not everyone bought this. It threatened to wreck
The comforting linkage of cause and effect.
E'en Einstein had doubts, and so Schroedinger tried
To tell him what quantum mechanics implied.
Said Win to Al, "Brother, suppose we've a cat,
And inside a tube we have put that cat at--
Along with a solitaire deck and some Fritos,
A bottle of Night Train, a couple mosquitoes
(Or something else rhyming) and, oh, if you got 'em,
One vial prussic acid, one decaying ottom
Or atom--whatever--but when it emits,
A trigger device blasts the vial into bits
Which snuffs our poor kitty. The odds of this crime
Are 50 to 50 per hour each time.
The cylinder's sealed. The hour's passed away. Is
Our pussy still purring--or pushing up daisies?
Now, you'd say the cat either lives or it don't
But quantum mechanics is stubborn and won't.
Statistically speaking, the cat (goes the joke),
Is half a cat breathing and half a cat croaked.
To some this may seem a ridiculous split,
But quantum mechanics must answer, "Tough @#&!
We may not know much, but one thing's fo' sho':
There's things in the cosmos that we cannot know.
Shine light on electrons--you'll cause them to swerve.
The act of observing disturbs the observed--
Which ruins your test. But then if there's no testing
To see if a particle's moving or resting
Why try to conjecture? Pure useless endeavor!
We know probability--certainty, never.'
The effect of this notion? I very much fear
'Twill make doubtful all things that were formerly clear.
Till soon the cat doctors will say in reports,
"We've just flipped a coin and we've learned he's a corpse."'
So saith Herr Erwin. Quoth Albert, "You're nuts.
God doesn't play dice with the universe, putz.
I'll prove it!" he said, and the Lord knows he tried--
In vain--until fin'ly he more or less died.
Win spoke at the funeral: "Listen, dear friends,
Sweet Al was my buddy. I must make amends.
Though he doubted my theory, I'll say of this saint:
Ten-to-one he's in heaven--but five bucks says he ain't."

--CECIL ADAMS


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Jul 30 22:23:57 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:23:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fear of Fearing
Message-ID: <BF11AE7D.1193%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Dirge

1-2-3 was the number he played but today the number came up 3-2-1;
Bought his Carbide at 30 and it went to 29; had the favorite at Bowie
but the track was slow-

O executive type, would you like to drive a floating-power, knee-action,
silk-upholstered six? Wed a Hollywood star?
                           Shoot the course in 58? Draw to the ace,
king, jack?
O fellow with a will who won't take no, watch out for three cigarettes
on the same, single match; O democratic
                           voter born in August under Mars, beware of
liquidated rails-

Denouement to denouement, he took a personal pride in the certain,
ceratin way he lived his own, private life,
But nevertheless, they shut off his gas; nevertheless, the bank
foreclosed; nevertheless, the landlord called;
                           nevertheless, the radio broke,

And twelve o'clock arrived just once too often,
Just the same he he wore one grey tweed suit, bought one straw hat,
drank one straight Scotch, walked one
                           short step, took one long look, drew one
deep breath,
Just one too many.

And wow he died as wow he lived,
Going whop to the office and blooie home to sleep and biff got married
and bam had children and oof got fired,
Zowie did he live and zowie did he die,

With who the hell are you at the corner of his casket, and where the
hell are we going on the right-hand silver
                           knob, and who the hell cares walking second
from the end with an Aerican Beauty wreath
                           from why the hell not,

Very much missed by the circulation staff of the New York Eevening Post;
deeply, deeply mourned by the B.M.T.,

Wham, Mr Roosevelt; pow, Sears Roebuck; awk, big dipper; bop, summer
rain;
Bong, Mr., bong, Mr., bong, Mr., bong.


--Kenneth Fearing



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Sat Jul 30 23:11:35 2005
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:11:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fear of Fearing
In-Reply-To: <BF11AE7D.1193%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BF11AE7D.1193%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050730221042.01b6d070@mail.ilstu.edu>

Thanks for reminding me of this one, David.  It's such fun to read 
aloud.  I used to teach it every semester.

                                                         Bill

At 09:23 PM 7/30/2005, you wrote:
>Dirge
>
>1-2-3 was the number he played but today the number came up 3-2-1;
>Bought his Carbide at 30 and it went to 29; had the favorite at Bowie
>but the track was slow-
>
>O executive type, would you like to drive a floating-power, knee-action,
>silk-upholstered six? Wed a Hollywood star?
>                            Shoot the course in 58? Draw to the ace,
>king, jack?
>O fellow with a will who won't take no, watch out for three cigarettes
>on the same, single match; O democratic
>                            voter born in August under Mars, beware of
>liquidated rails-
>
>Denouement to denouement, he took a personal pride in the certain,
>ceratin way he lived his own, private life,
>But nevertheless, they shut off his gas; nevertheless, the bank
>foreclosed; nevertheless, the landlord called;
>                            nevertheless, the radio broke,
>
>And twelve o'clock arrived just once too often,
>Just the same he he wore one grey tweed suit, bought one straw hat,
>drank one straight Scotch, walked one
>                            short step, took one long look, drew one
>deep breath,
>Just one too many.
>
>And wow he died as wow he lived,
>Going whop to the office and blooie home to sleep and biff got married
>and bam had children and oof got fired,
>Zowie did he live and zowie did he die,
>
>With who the hell are you at the corner of his casket, and where the
>hell are we going on the right-hand silver
>                            knob, and who the hell cares walking second
>from the end with an Aerican Beauty wreath
>                            from why the hell not,
>
>Very much missed by the circulation staff of the New York Eevening Post;
>deeply, deeply mourned by the B.M.T.,
>
>Wham, Mr Roosevelt; pow, Sears Roebuck; awk, big dipper; bop, summer
>rain;
>Bong, Mr., bong, Mr., bong, Mr., bong.
>
>
>--Kenneth Fearing
>
>
>
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun Jul 31 11:40:00 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:40:00 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 13, Issue 49
In-Reply-To: <200507301600.j6UG04HC013440@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200507301600.j6UG04HC013440@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100307bf129e5d4d8a@[204.215.200.17]>

Never, ever, have I not been the one to whom the job of light bulb 
changing has fallen when the choice came down to me, as male, versus 
a woman, or any number of women, regardless of our relative incomes, 
I add, or of totem pole position in any bureaucracy, private, public, 
legal, illegal, or family, bloodline or pickup.  There is no apparent 
reason for this duty to befall me, or the likes of me.  Except one. 
(I tried to convey this to President Summers but his secretary 
returned my post.)  Why I am always the one to change the lightbulb 
regardless of how many or who the women are who happen to be there at 
that moment of darkness is because a man invented the lightbulb.

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n



At 12:00 PM -0400 7/30/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
>Message: 7
>Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:22:33 -0400
>From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a farce
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,	Views"
>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <33abf27505073006224faf0e82 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Don't forget the inevitable sexist battle of whose job it should be to
>change the light bulb, and why.
>
>
>On 7/30/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
>>
>>  This leaves out the ones who compare the pro-lightbulb group to Hitler,
>>  and the ones who compare the anti-lightbulb group to Hitler.
>>   Tad Richards
>>  www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>-
>>  http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
>>  *To:* New Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>  *Sent:* Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:39 AM
>>  *Subject:* [New-Poetry] a farce
>>
>>  From another mailing list, sent by Patrickulus McManus_ you do not need to
>>  read it all, a couple of lines give the idea, :-)
>>   *How many internet newsgroup subscribers does it take to change a light
>>  bulb*?
>>
>>  1,331 !!
>>  1 to successfully change the light bulb and to post to the newsgroup that
>>  the light bulb has been changed.
>  > 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
>  > bulb could have been changed differently.





-- 


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sun Jul 31 12:26:58 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:26:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why people exist Mike can't say
Message-ID: <s2ecb5a0.037@mail.highland.edu>

Not sure what you are arguing agaisnt here, Mike. I never proposed that
hydrogen is fused into helium in stars we've never seen only when the
Hubble catches the light. And I don't imagine I would! 

I was just making a point that at quantum levels observation changes
"results." I plead guilty to not being a physicist and perhaps
misunderstanding this matter via my reading of science-for-laymen books,
thus being, if I understand your message correctly, one of those
poor-ass suckers that Sokal showed up. Thank you for your physics
lesson.

In any case, this "reality" as separate from mind and unaffected by it
is true in a certain sense (does a tree make a sound when it falls,
etc., what happens if you jump from a thirty story window, what about
billions of years ago, and so on). But the fact is that physical reality
and its evolution has created minds and now consciousness is part of the
whole picture, seamlessly interwoven with reality, a part of reality no
less than hydrogen and helium in stars we've never seen, and so
consciousness affects, modulates reality in obvious ways, and in that
sense I am not sure I undestand your long, belabored point.

Also, in any case, Science can't explain existence, and that is an
exciting fact. 

Also, Merleau-Ponty is a wonderful philosopher.

Kent


>The gist of all  that is that "observers" do not need to be conscious 

beings, which is just common sense, of course. For the greatest part  
of the history of the universe, and certainly at the time of the Big  
Bang, when the entire universe existed only at quantum scales,  
conscious observers were plainly impossible. And yet things happened. 
Are we to believe that the long history radioactive decay of argon  
and uranium and carbon-14 we use to date our world suffers that  
entire history in the moment in which we measure them? What about the 

vast quantities of hydrogen being fused into helium in stars we have  
never observed? Does that spring into existence, say 13 billion years 

ago, when the Hubble catches that light?
 



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 12:32:02 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:32:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] those lightbulb jokes --
In-Reply-To: <a05100307bf129e5d4d8a@[204.215.200.17]>
References: <200507301600.j6UG04HC013440@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100307bf129e5d4d8a@[204.215.200.17]>
Message-ID: <3F4B2E33-4D44-4407-9ACE-53C35E7A1979@mac.com>


On Jul 31, 2005, at 11:40 AM, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:

> Never, ever, have I not been the one to whom the job of light bulb  
> changing has fallen when the choice came down to me, as male,  
> versus a woman, or any number of women, regardless of our relative  
> incomes, I add, or of totem pole position in any bureaucracy,  
> private, public, legal, illegal, or family, bloodline or pickup.   
> There is no apparent reason for this duty to befall me, or the  
> likes of me.  Except one. (I tried to convey this to President  
> Summers but his secretary returned my post.)  Why I am always the  
> one to change the lightbulb regardless of how many or who the women  
> are who happen to be there at that moment of darkness is because a  
> man invented the lightbulb.
>
> R i c h a r d  D i l l o n
>
>
>
> At 12:00 PM -0400 7/30/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:22:33 -0400
>> From: Donna Casinghino <snakecharmer at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a farce
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,    Views"
>>     <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Message-ID: <33abf27505073006224faf0e82 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Don't forget the inevitable sexist battle of whose job it should  
>> be to
>> change the light bulb, and why.
>>
>>
>> On 7/30/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>  This leaves out the ones who compare the pro-lightbulb group to  
>>> Hitler,
>>>  and the ones who compare the anti-lightbulb group to Hitler.
>>>   Tad Richards
>>>  www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>-
>>>  http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
>>>  *To:* New Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>  *Sent:* Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:39 AM
>>>  *Subject:* [New-Poetry] a farce
>>>
>>>  From another mailing list, sent by Patrickulus McManus_ you do  
>>> not need to
>>>  read it all, a couple of lines give the idea, :-)
>>>   *How many internet newsgroup subscribers does it take to change  
>>> a light
>>>  bulb*?
>>>
>>>  1,331 !!
>>>  1 to successfully change the light bulb and to post to the  
>>> newsgroup that
>>>  the light bulb has been changed.
>>>
>>  > 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how  
>> the light
>>  > bulb could have been changed differently.
>>
>
>


Richard, Donna, and all the rest of you, I beg forgiveness for this  
one, but the latest comments opened a dark corner of memory:

Q: How many feminists does it take to change  a light bulb?

A: That's not funny.


Mike S (ducking)


From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 13:22:20 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:22:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why people exist Mike can't say
In-Reply-To: <s2ecb5a0.037@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2ecb5a0.037@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <ADC5A51A-C447-45B7-B317-2C554476FF19@mac.com>


On Jul 31, 2005, at 12:26 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Not sure what you are arguing agaisnt here, Mike. I never proposed  
> that
> hydrogen is fused into helium in stars we've never seen only when the
> Hubble catches the light. And I don't imagine I would!
>
> I was just making a point that at quantum levels observation changes
> "results."

But that's the point -- "observation" is very poorly defined in the  
Copenhagen interpretation, and paradoxes like the alive and dead cat  
arise from that poor definition, not from any physical reality. In  
any case, measurements at the quantum level do NOT change results:  
the kind of measurement you make affects your ability to make other  
nearly simultaneous measurements, which is  a very different thing.  
It's still pretty damned weird that you can for instance, treat a  
photon as either a particle or a wave as long as you don't try to do  
bot at the same time, and even weirder that quantum entanglement  
means that, for certain pairs of things under certain conditions,  
measuring hthe state of one of them  means the entangled state of the  
other is simultaneously determined. For technical reasons this can't  
be used to send faster-than-light signals. Too bad.



> I plead guilty to not being a physicist and perhaps
> misunderstanding this matter via my reading of science-for-laymen  
> books,
> thus being, if I understand your message correctly, one of those
> poor-ass suckers that Sokal showed up. Thank you for your physics
> lesson.
>
> In any case, this "reality" as separate from mind and unaffected by it
> is true in a certain sense (does a tree make a sound when it falls,
> etc., what happens if you jump from a thirty story window, what about
> billions of years ago, and so on). But the fact is that physical  
> reality
> and its evolution has created minds and now consciousness is part  
> of the
> whole picture, seamlessly interwoven with reality, a part of  
> reality no
> less than hydrogen and helium in stars we've never seen, and so
> consciousness affects, modulates reality in obvious ways, and in that
> sense I am not sure I undestand your long, belabored point.

Consciousness is itself a physical process, and creatures conscious  
in the way we are behave in ways different from their non-or-less- 
conscious cousins, making, perhaps, different kinds of difference in  
the world, but how consciousness may "modulate reality" (as opposed  
to "modulate our experience of reality") is not at all obvious.

> Also, in any case, Science can't explain existence, and that is an
> exciting fact.
>

String-theory shows some promise of one day doing exactly that, and  
Alan Guth's inflationary theory, among others, seems to some to show  
the universe is "the ultimate free lunch": the net energy of the  
thing is zero, so it just happens, a fluctuation in quantum foam.

But if you mean "the purpose of existence" when you say "existence,"  
then that  can be explained only by personal or traditional faith --  
which means not at all. The only purposes about which we can gather  
even semi-reliable information are those of conscious beings. There's  
no evidence of any sort suggesting the actvity of any sort of  
consciousness in the unverse as a whole, and a great deal of evidence  
to the contrary.

> Also, Merleau-Ponty is a wonderful philosopher.

Mebbe so. It's been years since I read anything of his. I remember  
being impressed by his insistence on the activity of the body in  
experiencing the world, but disappointed that he didn't speak of  
evoultionary constraints on that activity and experience --- and  
especially how those evoutionary constraints generally lead to  
accurate experience of the wolrd in the ways which matter for our  
survival.

>
> Kent
>
>
>
>> The gist of all  that is that "observers" do not need to be conscious
>>
>
> beings, which is just common sense, of course. For the greatest part
> of the history of the universe, and certainly at the time of the Big
> Bang, when the entire universe existed only at quantum scales,
> conscious observers were plainly impossible. And yet things happened.
> Are we to believe that the long history radioactive decay of argon
> and uranium and carbon-14 we use to date our world suffers that
> entire history in the moment in which we measure them? What about the
>
> vast quantities of hydrogen being fused into helium in stars we have
> never observed? Does that spring into existence, say 13 billion years
>
> ago, when the Hubble catches that light?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 13:30:42 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:30:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nemerov on faith and physics
Message-ID: <F9499043-9C1F-4999-A07E-A36E6A86A090@mac.com>


from Howard Nemerov

Two Pair


More money's lost, old gambers understand,
On two pair than on any other hand;

And in the great world that may be the cause
That we've two pairs of First and Second Laws.

The first pair tells us we may be redeemed,
But in a world, the other says, that's doomed.

In one, the First Law says: Nothing is Lost.
The other First Law adds: But we are lost.

One Second Law fulfills what spake the prophets;
The other tersely sates: There are no profits.

Baffled between the Old Law and the New,
What boots it to be told both sets are true,

Or that disorder in the universe
Is perfectly legal, and always getting worse?


-------


Creation Myth on a Moebius Band


This world's just mad enough to have been made
By the Being his beings into Being prayed.


From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 14:27:35 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:27:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] one of my epistemological sonnets
Message-ID: <B3D89FE5-210C-4023-AAB0-D26890D969D9@mac.com>

We Are A Kind Of Map


A buzzer-beating three-point shot reveals
We're born to know our truths about this world,
And so is everything: a fly conceals
Itself till it's grown wings and they've unfurled;
A virus has the key for just the cell
Where it can flourish; that very cell, in dying,
Creates an army ready to repel
Precisely that invader or die in trying.
Of course that's metaphor, but not a lie,
Not just a way of trying to impose
Some sense on senselessness, a useless "Why?"
We answer till we like what we suppose.
We'll make mistakes -- but make them unafraid:
We see the world with eyes the world has made.


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sun Jul 31 14:32:19 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:32:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] conciousness modulating reality
Message-ID: <s2ecd2f7.051@mail.highland.edu>

Mike, maybe I am not following your meaning fully here, but this seems
like a very weird thing to say:

>but how consciousness may "modulate reality" (as opposed to "modulate
our experience of reality") is not at all obvious.


Here's an example of "modulation": 

The higher consciousnesses of the Bush administration were determined
to go to war. Because they couldn't figure out how to do it otherwise,
they very consciously engaged in a campaign of deception, "fixing the
facts to fit the policy." As a result, tens of thousands of
consciousnesses have ceased to exist in the past two years, and
corporations whose "reality" many of the higher consciousnesses of the
Bush Administration have an "experience of" have made billions. 

This, it seems to me, would be one instance of "consciousness
modulating reality."



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 15:07:48 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:07:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] conciousness modulating reality
In-Reply-To: <s2ecd2f7.051@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2ecd2f7.051@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <4B01A7FD-734F-4ED9-97CE-8000799CDC27@mac.com>


On Jul 31, 2005, at 2:32 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Mike, maybe I am not following your meaning fully here, but this seems
> like a very weird thing to say:
>
>
>> but how consciousness may "modulate reality" (as opposed to "modulate
>>
> our experience of reality") is not at all obvious.
>
>
> Here's an example of "modulation":
>
> The higher consciousnesses of the Bush administration were determined
> to go to war. Because they couldn't figure out how to do it otherwise,
> they very consciously engaged in a campaign of deception, "fixing the
> facts to fit the policy." As a result, tens of thousands of
> consciousnesses have ceased to exist in the past two years, and
> corporations whose "reality" many of the higher consciousnesses of the
> Bush Administration have an "experience of" have made billions.
>
> This, it seems to me, would be one instance of "consciousness
> modulating reality."


But Kent, that has nothing at all to do with your original claim:
---------------------------
Mike said:


> ...the real world out there, which does not in any way depend on us
>
for its reality.
Kent:

Well, but this doesn;t hold at the quantum level, right? And that IS a
big part of the "real world," right?


-----------------

and is not inconsistent with what I wrote in my last on that thread:

" creatures conscious in the way we are behave in ways different from  
their non-or-less-conscious cousins, making, perhaps, different kinds  
of difference in the world"


And it's still a very peculiar way of using "modulate reality," one  
which could equally well be applied to the malarial parasites which  
have ended more consciousnesses than anything else in our history and  
were a principal factor in the slave trade becoming virtually  
restricted to West Africans, thus making vast fortunes for a few from  
the suffering and deaths of those tens of thousands of slaves and  
altering  for the last 400 years the political history of the  four  
continents bordering the Atlantic Ocean.

MIke S


From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 15:50:16 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:50:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Attempt To Clear Things Up -- was Why People Exist
Message-ID: <5412C681-E86B-4EC1-939D-8F2D9DFB3306@mac.com>

Kent,

This is what I think has happened:

Gabe Gudding asked, with no sign of seriousness, why people and  
flowers exist.

I answered anyway and perhaps foolishly: "Like Topsy, they just grew"  
from historical contingency in in accord with phisical law.

Paul Murphy asked why I said "physical law" as if it were dicovered  
instead of invented.

I answered because it IS discovered: the universe does not depend on  
us for its reality.

You replied "Well, but this doesn't hold at the quantum level, right?"

I tried to show that it does indeed hold at the quantum level, that  
"observer effects," insofar as they exist, do not depend on conscious  
observers.


-------------

When George Bush steps in, things get confusing (no surprise there).  
There are, I think, two possibilities:

1) You think  that I mean consciousness has no effect in the world  
because it's clear that consciousnes does not change physical law --  
an absurd position, which I do not hold, and which I find it hard to  
believe you actually attribute to me.

2) You've shifted the frame for "reality" from the "reality of  
physical law" or perhaps "reality of the universe independent of our  
interpretation/experience of it"  to the "reality of contingent  
historical events resulting from the deliberate actions of conscious  
beings."

If the first possibility IS true, then just let me assure you I  
believe no such thing.

If the second is true, then I have no argument with you at that level  
of framing, but I wonder where you stand on the original issue.

Now that I think about it a little, there is a third possibilty: that  
the introduction of George W. Bush into an online discussion is a  
variant instance of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
Godwin's_law), in which case this thread and all its ancestors,  
siblings, and cousins are dead and you've implicitly acknowledged  
that I'm correct in claiming that the universe does not in any way  
depend on us for its reality.


Mike S.



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 15:56:54 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:56:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Attempt To Clear Things Up -- was Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <5412C681-E86B-4EC1-939D-8F2D9DFB3306@mac.com>
References: <5412C681-E86B-4EC1-939D-8F2D9DFB3306@mac.com>
Message-ID: <EA171C1D-08B6-4BF3-BB30-004A8577B5AB@mac.com>

Sorry to reply to myself,

but I just want to make it  clear that I in no way think George Bush  
is comparable to Hitler nor that Republicans are comparable to Nazis --
by suggesting Godwin's Law may apply I only mean that for some people  
of particular political persuasions, introducing Bush into a  
discussion is rhetorically equivalent to introducing Hitler.

And THAT doesn't mean I think Bush, whatever his motives, hasn't made  
a sorry mess that will take decades to clean up. It seems clear to me  
that he has.


On Jul 31, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Michael Snider wrote:

> Kent,
>
> This is what I think has happened:
>
> Gabe Gudding asked, with no sign of seriousness, why people and  
> flowers exist.
>
> I answered anyway and perhaps foolishly: "Like Topsy, they just  
> grew" from historical contingency in in accord with phisical law.
>
> Paul Murphy asked why I said "physical law" as if it were dicovered  
> instead of invented.
>
> I answered because it IS discovered: the universe does not depend  
> on us for its reality.
>
> You replied "Well, but this doesn't hold at the quantum level, right?"
>
> I tried to show that it does indeed hold at the quantum level, that  
> "observer effects," insofar as they exist, do not depend on  
> conscious observers.
>
>
> -------------
>
> When George Bush steps in, things get confusing (no surprise  
> there). There are, I think, two possibilities:
>
> 1) You think  that I mean consciousness has no effect in the world  
> because it's clear that consciousnes does not change physical law  
> -- an absurd position, which I do not hold, and which I find it  
> hard to believe you actually attribute to me.
>
> 2) You've shifted the frame for "reality" from the "reality of  
> physical law" or perhaps "reality of the universe independent of  
> our interpretation/experience of it"  to the "reality of contingent  
> historical events resulting from the deliberate actions of  
> conscious beings."
>
> If the first possibility IS true, then just let me assure you I  
> believe no such thing.
>
> If the second is true, then I have no argument with you at that  
> level of framing, but I wonder where you stand on the original issue.
>
> Now that I think about it a little, there is a third possibilty:  
> that the introduction of George W. Bush into an online discussion  
> is a variant instance of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
> Godwin's_law), in which case this thread and all its ancestors,  
> siblings, and cousins are dead and you've implicitly acknowledged  
> that I'm correct in claiming that the universe does not in any way  
> depend on us for its reality.
>
>
> Mike S.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sun Jul 31 16:05:29 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:05:29 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Attempt To Clear Things Up -- was Why People Exist
References: <5412C681-E86B-4EC1-939D-8F2D9DFB3306@mac.com>
Message-ID: <007301c5960b$33cd0cd0$18042cd9@Robin>

From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>

> I answered anyway and perhaps foolishly: "Like Topsy, they just grew"

        The street legal version of this is that she just *growed*.

God give me patience, but this roots back into 19thC black afro slang.

        they just grew

...  makes absolutely no sense whatsovever, however you try to tangle your
tongue around it.

        Nah?

A Pedant from BritLand









From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 16:14:36 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:14:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Attempt To Clear Things Up -- was Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <007301c5960b$33cd0cd0$18042cd9@Robin>
References: <5412C681-E86B-4EC1-939D-8F2D9DFB3306@mac.com>
	<007301c5960b$33cd0cd0$18042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <53626378-93F5-43F1-B3EA-B93D184999B8@mac.com>


On Jul 31, 2005, at 4:05 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>
>
>> I answered anyway and perhaps foolishly: "Like Topsy, they just grew"
>>
>
>         The street legal version of this is that she just *growed*.
>
> God give me patience, but this roots back into 19thC black afro slang.
>
>         they just grew
>
> ...  makes absolutely no sense whatsovever, however you try to  
> tangle your
> tongue around it.
>
>         Nah?
>
> A Pedant from BritLand
>
>

Robin, your pedantry is most welcome. I likes it.


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul 31 16:42:28 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:42:28 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Attempt To Clear Things Up -- was Why People Exist
References: <5412C681-E86B-4EC1-939D-8F2D9DFB3306@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00d101c59610$5dc1eb00$ecab3452@ANNY>

Thank you Michael for bringing this up.

Because also my messages under the same thread were misunderstood. I then b/c Uche Ogbuji to apologize because I have nothing against _science_, as a matter of fact I am most interested in it, and had I time enough, I would become a scientist, first an astronomer, then a chemist or a mathematician to link then to philosophy, but also first a doctor, but a doctor that manages energies and heals without having to practice surgery or buy products made by some pharmaceutical industries. As a translator I know of some of those double blind tests and their results.

If I am not wrong we both (Uche and I) agreed on denouncing business lobbies that kill independent research, and on the consequent information given by manipulated media. 

And I would add:
On the stereotype forged by the industry by which you have to accept only one given truth (on the leitmotiv of an aspirin against headache) and against the entire system that kills a profession like the one of a doctor to make of it the one of an overpaid clerk deprived of any human feeling.

Uche Ogbuji underlined that this list is often against _science_ and once again I know it is my mistake. And I would like to make it clear again, that I respect any form of research, be it intellectual or scientific that is based on education and effort, as much as I respect the muscles of the workers, the beauty of the hands of the carver, and even if I am for a free economic system that brings people to compete and give the best of themselves, I am against any product forged by interest. Whatever is fake stinks here at my home.

And since I am not a scientist, and unluckily what I get to read is what is mediated through newspapers and magazines, I erroneously depicted in my fast and negligent approach to the subject, _science_ as a negative obscure sphere; right because I value it much more than the petty info easily broadcast. Or the example of some people I have around here and that abound also elsewhere.

Best regards,
Anny Ballardini

  

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 9:50 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Attempt To Clear Things Up -- was Why People Exist


> Kent,
> 
> This is what I think has happened:
> 
> Gabe Gudding asked, with no sign of seriousness, why people and  
> flowers exist.
> 
> I answered anyway and perhaps foolishly: "Like Topsy, they just grew"  
> from historical contingency in in accord with phisical law.
> 
> Paul Murphy asked why I said "physical law" as if it were dicovered  
> instead of invented.
> 
> I answered because it IS discovered: the universe does not depend on  
> us for its reality.
> 
> You replied "Well, but this doesn't hold at the quantum level, right?"
> 
> I tried to show that it does indeed hold at the quantum level, that  
> "observer effects," insofar as they exist, do not depend on conscious  
> observers.
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> When George Bush steps in, things get confusing (no surprise there).  
> There are, I think, two possibilities:
> 
> 1) You think  that I mean consciousness has no effect in the world  
> because it's clear that consciousnes does not change physical law --  
> an absurd position, which I do not hold, and which I find it hard to  
> believe you actually attribute to me.
> 
> 2) You've shifted the frame for "reality" from the "reality of  
> physical law" or perhaps "reality of the universe independent of our  
> interpretation/experience of it"  to the "reality of contingent  
> historical events resulting from the deliberate actions of conscious  
> beings."
> 
> If the first possibility IS true, then just let me assure you I  
> believe no such thing.
> 
> If the second is true, then I have no argument with you at that level  
> of framing, but I wonder where you stand on the original issue.
> 
> Now that I think about it a little, there is a third possibilty: that  
> the introduction of George W. Bush into an online discussion is a  
> variant instance of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
> Godwin's_law), in which case this thread and all its ancestors,  
> siblings, and cousins are dead and you've implicitly acknowledged  
> that I'm correct in claiming that the universe does not in any way  
> depend on us for its reality.
> 
> 
> Mike S.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sun Jul 31 18:46:18 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:46:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Time to REALLY clear things up
Message-ID: <s2ed0e76.077@mail.highland.edu>

Mike said:

>Kent,

>This is what I think has happened:
>Gabe Gudding asked, with no sign of seriousness, why people and 
flowers exist...


Mike, excuse me. What happened first is that I sent a post about a week
ago titled "Why Poetry Exists."

(In the subject heading, I rendered "Poetry" in upper case to make
Marcus's dactyled dredlocks catch on fire. Then David Graham sent in a
post on Kenneth Fearing [!], transparently seeking to derail focus away
from my impressive post and to selfishly pull attention toward himself.
I have derived immense pleasure from the obvious failure of his
attempt.)

In that post on Why Poetry Exists, I said, in full, the following:

"Because the essence of any thing is always incommensurate with its
being."

This is probably the profoundest thought I have ever had in my life, so
I am a bit annoyed that you think Gabe Gudding started this thread about
the universe with his silly question about people and flowers. (Of
course, stealing attention from me at every possible turn is something
Gabe has been trying to do ever since I gave him a 'C' in my "History of
Prosody" course when the Visiting Poet at Purdue, where GG was studying
for his MA). 

You needn't fret about my misinterpreting your lessons on the Nature of
the Univerfe and Its Phyfickal Laws: You have been remarkably clear and
I now understand. Yesterday I was starting to believe in God; now I
don't.

However, I still do have a question. Is Natural Selection a Reality of
the Universe, a set of Laws independent of consciousness? 

It IS Law, correct? And yet, it is clear that we (conscious, sentient
beings) *can* "modulate" it. 

So how 'bout THEM apples, Galileo? 

Kent

 





From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 19:37:28 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:37:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Time to REALLY clear things up
In-Reply-To: <s2ed0e76.077@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2ed0e76.077@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <950BD393-96BE-40F5-9D7E-336CFBE89167@mac.com>


On Jul 31, 2005, at 6:46 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Mike said:
>
>
>> Kent,
>>
>
>
>> This is what I think has happened:
>> Gabe Gudding asked, with no sign of seriousness, why people and
>>
> flowers exist...
>
>
> Mike, excuse me. What happened first is that I sent a post about a  
> week
> ago titled "Why Poetry Exists."
>
> (In the subject heading, I rendered "Poetry" in upper case to make
> Marcus's dactyled dredlocks catch on fire. Then David Graham sent in a
> post on Kenneth Fearing [!], transparently seeking to derail focus  
> away
> from my impressive post and to selfishly pull attention toward  
> himself.
> I have derived immense pleasure from the obvious failure of his
> attempt.)


You're right -- it did start there. I thought things had morphed  
sufficiently to be a different conversation -- either that or I'm  
just getting absent minded in my old age. CRS, ya know.

> In that post on Why Poetry Exists, I said, in full, the following:
>
> "Because the essence of any thing is always incommensurate with its
> being."
>
> This is probably the profoundest thought I have ever had in my  
> life, so
> I am a bit annoyed that you think Gabe Gudding started this thread  
> about
> the universe with his silly question about people and flowers. (Of
> course, stealing attention from me at every possible turn is something
> Gabe has been trying to do ever since I gave him a 'C' in my  
> "History of
> Prosody" course when the Visiting Poet at Purdue, where GG was  
> studying
> for his MA).
>

I still think it don't mean squat -- very likely a further result of  
my ongoing mental deterioration


> You needn't fret about my misinterpreting your lessons on the  
> Nature of
> the Univerfe and Its Phyfickal Laws: You have been remarkably clear  
> and
> I now understand. Yesterday I was starting to believe in God; now I
> don't.
>
> However, I still do have a question. Is Natural Selection a Reality of
> the Universe, a set of Laws independent of consciousness?
>
> It IS Law, correct? And yet, it is clear that we (conscious, sentient
> beings) *can* "modulate" it.
>
> So how 'bout THEM apples, Galileo?
>

But here a remnant of reason remains. Evolution is just shifts in  
gene pools, and natural selection is ONE of the ways in which those  
shifts occur. Natural selection is the differential survival of gene  
lineages in response to  changing local conditions, and those local  
conditions, increasingly and nearly everywhere, include us and our  
activities. So we certainly affect the results of natural selection,  
and we can affect evolution not just through our effects on local  
habitats but by more direct means. We can, through conscious and  
unconscious action, effect changes in gene pools. That's how we got  
corn. Some would argue that's not natural selction -- Darwin spent a  
long portion of The Origin of Species on domestic pigeons using  
deliberate breeding as an analogy, a way in to thinking about natural  
selection -- but I think we're just  a verty important part of the  
environment for domestcated species, another (very strong) set of  
selective pressures. We can use what we've learned by studying  
evolution and molecular biology to change gene pools through gene  
splicing and other methods, but that doesn't change the rules of  
natural selection any more than a transistor, which uses quantum  
mechanical effects to do things not found in nature, changes the  
rules of quantum mechanics. Tomatoes with fish genes which protect  
them from frost are still subject to selective pressure in just the  
same way as any other organism. And, btw, are tomatoes with fish  
genes any stranger than that the mitochondria which power our cells  
and the chloroplasts which capture the sun's energy to power almost  
all life near the surface of the earth are both, originally, symbiont  
organisms, and still retain their own distinct genetic code?

NONE of that changes how natural selection works. Being able to  
manuipulate (some of) the laws of nature does not change the laws of  
nature.

Mike S





From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 20:02:46 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:02:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Attempt To Clear Things Up -- was Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <00d101c59610$5dc1eb00$ecab3452@ANNY>
References: <5412C681-E86B-4EC1-939D-8F2D9DFB3306@mac.com>
	<00d101c59610$5dc1eb00$ecab3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <76F32013-858B-4648-82E6-18BAE194B490@mac.com>

Anny,

email and usenet and other near-instantaneous text systems are  
notorious for for their capacity to cause misunderstanding. We don't  
get the cues from tone of voice or facial expression or posture that  
we get in person ot to a limited extent over the phone, nor do we  
have the time for reflection, the days between messages, that snail- 
mail gives us. It's easy -- too easy -- to cause anger or distress,  
and I'm as guilty of it as anyone.

Mike S


On Jul 31, 2005, at 16:42 , Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Thank you Michael for bringing this up.
>
> Because also my messages under the same thread were misunderstood.  
> I then b/c Uche Ogbuji to apologize because I have nothing against  
> _science_, as a matter of fact I am most interested in it, and had  
> I time enough, I would become a scientist, first an astronomer,  
> then a chemist or a mathematician to link then to philosophy, but  
> also first a doctor, but a doctor that manages energies and heals  
> without having to practice surgery or buy products made by some  
> pharmaceutical industries. As a translator I know of some of those  
> double blind tests and their results.
>
> If I am not wrong we both (Uche and I) agreed on denouncing  
> business lobbies that kill independent research, and on the  
> consequent information given by manipulated media.
>
> And I would add:
> On the stereotype forged by the industry by which you have to  
> accept only one given truth (on the leitmotiv of an aspirin against  
> headache) and against the entire system that kills a profession  
> like the one of a doctor to make of it the one of an overpaid clerk  
> deprived of any human feeling.
>
> Uche Ogbuji underlined that this list is often against _science_  
> and once again I know it is my mistake. And I would like to make it  
> clear again, that I respect any form of research, be it  
> intellectual or scientific that is based on education and effort,  
> as much as I respect the muscles of the workers, the beauty of the  
> hands of the carver, and even if I am for a free economic system  
> that brings people to compete and give the best of themselves, I am  
> against any product forged by interest. Whatever is fake stinks  
> here at my home.
>
> And since I am not a scientist, and unluckily what I get to read is  
> what is mediated through newspapers and magazines, I erroneously  
> depicted in my fast and negligent approach to the subject,  
> _science_ as a negative obscure sphere; right because I value it  
> much more than the petty info easily broadcast. Or the example of  
> some people I have around here and that abound also elsewhere.
>
> Best regards,
> Anny Ballardini
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
> To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 9:50 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] An Attempt To Clear Things Up -- was Why  
> People Exist
>
> > Kent,
> >
> > This is what I think has happened:
> >
> > Gabe Gudding asked, with no sign of seriousness, why people and
> > flowers exist.
> >
> > I answered anyway and perhaps foolishly: "Like Topsy, they just  
> grew"
> > from historical contingency in in accord with phisical law.
> >
> > Paul Murphy asked why I said "physical law" as if it were dicovered
> > instead of invented.
> >
> > I answered because it IS discovered: the universe does not depend on
> > us for its reality.
> >
> > You replied "Well, but this doesn't hold at the quantum level,  
> right?"
> >
> > I tried to show that it does indeed hold at the quantum level, that
> > "observer effects," insofar as they exist, do not depend on  
> conscious
> > observers.
> >
> >
> > -------------
> >
> > When George Bush steps in, things get confusing (no surprise there).
> > There are, I think, two possibilities:
> >
> > 1) You think  that I mean consciousness has no effect in the world
> > because it's clear that consciousnes does not change physical law --
> > an absurd position, which I do not hold, and which I find it hard to
> > believe you actually attribute to me.
> >
> > 2) You've shifted the frame for "reality" from the "reality of
> > physical law" or perhaps "reality of the universe independent of our
> > interpretation/experience of it"  to the "reality of contingent
> > historical events resulting from the deliberate actions of conscious
> > beings."
> >
> > If the first possibility IS true, then just let me assure you I
> > believe no such thing.
> >
> > If the second is true, then I have no argument with you at that  
> level
> > of framing, but I wonder where you stand on the original issue.
> >
> > Now that I think about it a little, there is a third possibilty:  
> that
> > the introduction of George W. Bush into an online discussion is a
> > variant instance of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> > Godwin's_law), in which case this thread and all its ancestors,
> > siblings, and cousins are dead and you've implicitly acknowledged
> > that I'm correct in claiming that the universe does not in any way
> > depend on us for its reality.
> >
> >
> > Mike S.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Jul 31 20:08:13 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:08:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Time to REALLY clear things up
In-Reply-To: <950BD393-96BE-40F5-9D7E-336CFBE89167@mac.com>
References: <s2ed0e76.077@mail.highland.edu>
	<950BD393-96BE-40F5-9D7E-336CFBE89167@mac.com>
Message-ID: <b1c32bc33d35d22734e7e23abdc69548@earthlink.net>

The only true way to clear up questions such
as "Why does X exist?" is to respond with
"Why not?" I've heard this called the Israeli
response.

Hal

Today's Special -- Hamilton Stone Review
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html

Halvard Johnson
================
email: halvard at earthlink.net
            halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com

On Jul 31, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Michael Snider wrote:

>
> On Jul 31, 2005, at 6:46 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:
>
>> Mike said:
>>
>>
>>> Kent,
>>>
>>
>>
>>> This is what I think has happened:
>>> Gabe Gudding asked, with no sign of seriousness, why people and
>>>
>> flowers exist...
>>
>>
>> Mike, excuse me. What happened first is that I sent a post about a 
>> week
>> ago titled "Why Poetry Exists."
>>
>> (In the subject heading, I rendered "Poetry" in upper case to make
>> Marcus's dactyled dredlocks catch on fire. Then David Graham sent in a
>> post on Kenneth Fearing [!], transparently seeking to derail focus 
>> away
>> from my impressive post and to selfishly pull attention toward 
>> himself.
>> I have derived immense pleasure from the obvious failure of his
>> attempt.)
>
>
> You're right -- it did start there. I thought things had morphed 
> sufficiently to be a different conversation -- either that or I'm just 
> getting absent minded in my old age. CRS, ya know.
>
>> In that post on Why Poetry Exists, I said, in full, the following:
>>
>> "Because the essence of any thing is always incommensurate with its
>> being."
>>
>> This is probably the profoundest thought I have ever had in my life, 
>> so
>> I am a bit annoyed that you think Gabe Gudding started this thread 
>> about
>> the universe with his silly question about people and flowers. (Of
>> course, stealing attention from me at every possible turn is something
>> Gabe has been trying to do ever since I gave him a 'C' in my "History 
>> of
>> Prosody" course when the Visiting Poet at Purdue, where GG was 
>> studying
>> for his MA).
>>
>
> I still think it don't mean squat -- very likely a further result of 
> my ongoing mental deterioration
>
>
>> You needn't fret about my misinterpreting your lessons on the Nature 
>> of
>> the Univerfe and Its Phyfickal Laws: You have been remarkably clear 
>> and
>> I now understand. Yesterday I was starting to believe in God; now I
>> don't.
>>
>> However, I still do have a question. Is Natural Selection a Reality of
>> the Universe, a set of Laws independent of consciousness?
>>
>> It IS Law, correct? And yet, it is clear that we (conscious, sentient
>> beings) *can* "modulate" it.
>>
>> So how 'bout THEM apples, Galileo?
>>
>
> But here a remnant of reason remains. Evolution is just shifts in gene 
> pools, and natural selection is ONE of the ways in which those shifts 
> occur. Natural selection is the differential survival of gene lineages 
> in response to  changing local conditions, and those local conditions, 
> increasingly and nearly everywhere, include us and our activities. So 
> we certainly affect the results of natural selection, and we can 
> affect evolution not just through our effects on local habitats but by 
> more direct means. We can, through conscious and unconscious action, 
> effect changes in gene pools. That's how we got corn. Some would argue 
> that's not natural selction -- Darwin spent a long portion of The 
> Origin of Species on domestic pigeons using deliberate breeding as an 
> analogy, a way in to thinking about natural selection -- but I think 
> we're just  a verty important part of the environment for domestcated 
> species, another (very strong) set of selective pressures. We can use 
> what we've learned by studying evolution and molecular biology to 
> change gene pools through gene splicing and other methods, but that 
> doesn't change the rules of natural selection any more than a 
> transistor, which uses quantum mechanical effects to do things not 
> found in nature, changes the rules of quantum mechanics. Tomatoes with 
> fish genes which protect them from frost are still subject to 
> selective pressure in just the same way as any other organism. And, 
> btw, are tomatoes with fish genes any stranger than that the 
> mitochondria which power our cells and the chloroplasts which capture 
> the sun's energy to power almost all life near the surface of the 
> earth are both, originally, symbiont organisms, and still retain their 
> own distinct genetic code?
>
> NONE of that changes how natural selection works. Being able to 
> manuipulate (some of) the laws of nature does not change the laws of 
> nature.
>
> Mike S
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jul 31 21:47:58 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:47:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Time to REALLY clear things up
Message-ID: <8d.2c1e3e39.301ed94e@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/31/2005 6:47:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes:

> What happened first is that I sent a post about a week
> ago titled "Why Poetry Exists."
> 
> (In the subject heading, I rendered "Poetry" in upper case to make
> Marcus's dactyled dredlocks catch on fire. Then David Graham sent in a
> post on Kenneth Fearing [!], transparently seeking to derail focus away
> from my impressive post and to selfishly pull attention toward himself.
> I have derived immense pleasure from the obvious failure of his
> attempt.)
> 
> In that post on Why Poetry Exists, I said, in full, the following:
> 
> "Because the essence of any thing is always incommensurate with its
> being."
> 
> This is probably the profoundest thought I have ever had 

mine is: 'Poetry presupposes its own purpose.'
Finnegan
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From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 31 23:20:41 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:20:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Time to REALLY clear things up
In-Reply-To: <b1c32bc33d35d22734e7e23abdc69548@earthlink.net>
References: <s2ed0e76.077@mail.highland.edu>
	<950BD393-96BE-40F5-9D7E-336CFBE89167@mac.com>
	<b1c32bc33d35d22734e7e23abdc69548@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1368B4CA-11BE-4DA4-A11B-20AA496314B5@mac.com>


On Jul 31, 2005, at 8:08 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:

> The only true way to clear up questions such
> as "Why does X exist?" is to respond with
> "Why not?" I've heard this called the Israeli
> response.
>
> Hal
>

Hal, that's a vey succinct way of saying what I've gone on and on  
about -- if it isn't impossible, then given enough time it will happen.




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sun Jul 31 23:33:53 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:33:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Time to REALLY clear things up
Message-ID: <s2ed51f9.092@mail.highland.edu>

Halvard said:

>The only true way to clear up questions such
as "Why does X exist?" is to respond with
"Why not?" I've heard this called the Israeli
response.


I know of an Israeli response (Golda Meir) that goes, "The Palestinian
people don't exist." Or maybe it's "There is no such thing as
Palestine." 

Sopmething like that.

Yes, the Why of existence is tricky. And sometimes so full of the most
horrific hypocrisy.




From marcus at designerglass.com  Sun Jul 31 16:50:46 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:50:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] conciousness modulating reality
In-Reply-To: <s2ecd2f7.051@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42ED0166.4178.19099B@localhost>

Mike Snider wrote:
> >but how consciousness may "modulate reality" (as opposed to "modulate
> > our experience of reality") is not at all obvious.

On 31 Jul 2005 at 13:32, Kent Johnson wrote:
> The higher consciousnesses of the Bush administration were determined
> to go to war. ...  
> This, it seems to me, would be one instance of "consciousness
> modulating reality."

This is equivocation on several key words. You've shifted context 
without notice, and it won't wash. This kind of rhetorical trickery is pure 
bullshit. Address the issues in context.

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Sun Jul 31 16:50:46 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:50:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] those lightbulb jokes --
In-Reply-To: <3F4B2E33-4D44-4407-9ACE-53C35E7A1979@mac.com>
References: <a05100307bf129e5d4d8a@[204.215.200.17]>
Message-ID: <42ED0166.16239.190A95@localhost>

> Richard, Donna, and all the rest of you, I beg forgiveness for this  
> one, but the latest comments opened a dark corner of memory:
> Q: How many feminists does it take to change  a light bulb?
> A: That's not funny.
> Mike S (ducking)

How many flies does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Two, but no one knows how they got in there.





From marcus at designerglass.com  Sat Jul 30 17:54:45 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:54:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <0ED7A039-6DD6-4381-BEBD-DDD58574A301@mac.com>
References: <20050730194417.10805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42EBBEE5.5375.6D9F7@localhost>

Yeah, well, Michael, when they want to do magical thinking there's just 
no stopping them: they'll do magical thinking right up until the universe 
kills them for being wrong. Nothing you can do about it. Think of it as 
evolutionary pressure.

Marcus



On 30 Jul 2005 at 16:18, Michael Snider wrote:

> 
> On Jul 30, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Paul Murphy wrote:
> 
> > why do you make the connection between science and law
> > in phrases as ?scientific laws??  This implies that
> > the Universe has certain principles which we discover
> > (ie not invent)
> 
> 
> Exactly. The laws as we state them are certainly not complete and  
> will always be approximations, but the scientific method ensures that  
> they will asymptotically approach completeness and accuracy.  We  
> invent hypotheses about physical law, but then we test them and  
> discard or modify those that fail, and use both failure and success  
> to guide further exploration of the real world out there, which does  
> not in any way depend on us for its reality. We're well on the way to  
> discovering how it works.
> 
> 
> >
> > --- Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Jul 30, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 14:47 +0200, Anny Ballardini
> >>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I hope you'll understand the irony behind it all,
> >>>>
> >> besides that
> >>
> >>>> there is a
> >>>> sneering from my side _ due to facts more than to
> >>>>
> >> a detached
> >>
> >>>> philosophical
> >>>> consideration. Interesting anyhow to see how
> >>>>
> >> involved you are in
> >>
> >>>> sciences,
> >>>> welcome they are whenever they succeed, as much
> >>>>
> >> as poets whenever
> >>
> >>>> a good
> >>>> poem shows up.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I did understand that you had your tongue at least
> >>>
> >> partly in cheek
> >>
> >>> (the
> >>> "it's all about leaves" was a bit of a giveaway),
> >>>
> >> but I was more
> >>
> >>> concerned with the improper association of science
> >>>
> >> with such questions
> >>
> >>> in the first place.  Perhaps I was too quick to
> >>>
> >> spot sneering, but
> >>
> >>> I'm a
> >>> bit sensitive to the topic these days, what with
> >>>
> >> the right wing
> >>
> >>> reagent
> >>> attack on science blazing on all fronts.
> >>>
> >>> -- 
> >>> Uche Ogbuji
> >>> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net
> >>>
> >> http://copia.ogbuji.net
> >>
> >>> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com
> >>>
> >> http://Fourthought.com
> >>
> >>
> >> Uche, I sympathize with your desire to insulate
> >> scientific work from
> >> the bizarre morality of the religious right, but in
> >> fact science
> >> answers "why" questions all the time -- including
> >> "Why are there
> >> people?"  -- usually by turning them into "how"
> >> questions and
> >> demonstrating that intention, divine or not, has
> >> little or nothing to
> >> do with what's going on. People are here because of
> >> physical law and
> >> history unfolding in acordance with that law. Like
> >> Topsy, they "just
> >> grew."
> >>
> >> Science can't (yet?) answer why physical law is what
> >> it is, at least
> >> not for things like the fundamental constants, but
> >> nothing else has
> >> any chance at all of answering such a question. Some
> >> god may have set
> >> them, but if that's the case it's something we'll
> >> never be able to
> >> know by any means. Even if the thing made the claim
> >> directly to us,
> >> what would constitute sufficient evidence?
> >>
> >> Look at Daniel Dennet's Freedom Evolves for some of
> >> the implications
> >> of scientific work, especially in evolutionary
> >> theory, for things
> >> like free will.
> >>
> >> Mike S.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>