From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jan 1 00:06:12 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 00:06:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "New Year" Message-ID: New Year Cardinals fly up from the edge of the near field, another year?s luck. The haiku poet gives us a morning gift: Starry night: she squeezes in between her husband and her ex A road, a fence, a field. A table on which a book lies open: History of the Great American Fortunes by Gustavus Myers. A glimpse out the window of gray and white cat. I open the door and in it comes. This is the first day, unlike any other. --Halvard Johnson, NYC, 1/1/05 =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1908 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 1 04:50:02 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:50:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thought for a New Year References: <9f.5577cf65.2f0745f8@aol.com> <001c01c4efa0$3dbcdd90$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <005001c4efe7$43dae7c0$afaa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> I agree with Tad and with your permission I'll copy it on my blog for my _faithful_ readers who will appreciate it. For the New Year I put on the Poets' Corner Michael Rothenberg's Concrete Sky: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=747 in my Italian translation: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=920 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky From: The Old Mole Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 2:21 AM Jim - what a beautiful sentiment for the New Year. Tad Richards www.opus40.org From: JforJames at aol.com Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 7:16 PM The 1975 Nobel Prize address of Eugenio Montale "Is Poetry Still Possible?" I had thought of giving this title to my brief address: Can poetry survive in the world of mass communications? Many wonder about this, but on serious reflection the answer cam only be in the affirmative. If by poetry we mean so-called belles lettres, it is clear that worldwide production will continue to increase out of all proportion. If on the other hand we limit ourselves to poetry that rejects with horror the label of product, poetry which arises as if by miracle and seems to fix an entire epoch and an entire linguistic and cultural situation, then it is necessary to say that there is no possibility poetry will die. The Second Life of Art: Selected Essays of Eugenio Montale Ecco Press, 1982 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au Sat Jan 1 06:26:31 2005 From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:26:31 +1100 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Malleable Jangle Issue 2 is now online In-Reply-To: <200412311700.iBVH08An024489@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20050101112631.45548.qmail@web51408.mail.yahoo.com> Hello there, just a quick word to inform you that the online poetry journal Malleable Jangle Issue 2 is now online. The Jan05 issue features the talent of: Sonja Broderick, Nicholas Bell, Glenn Bach, Barbara Phillips, Jeff Harrison, Sheila E Murphy, Guy Kettlehack, Mark Coburn, and Ian McBryde. This issue has some pretty impressive poetry from all around the world. Go to this site and read the poetry; you will be glad you did. For those who don?t know how to get there: www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com All the best for the New Year, Robert Lane. p.s. Malleable Jangle is calling for submissions for Issue 3 Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 1 08:50:55 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:50:55 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sappho and Corelis Message-ID: <002e01c4f008$ea5b19a0$27af3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> By Jon Corelis (on the Poets' Corner here: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=7), a good translation of one of Sappho's poems on PoemHunter today: On what is best Some celebrate the beauty of knights, or infantry, or billowing flotillas at battle on the sea. Warfare has its glory, but I place far above these military splendors the one thing that you love. For proof of this contention examine history: we all remember Helen, who left her family, her child, and royal husband, to take a stranger's hand: her beauty had no equal, but bowed to love's command. As love then is the power that none can disobey, so too my thoughts must follow my darling far away: the sparkle of her laughter would give me greater joy than all the bronze-clad heroes - translated from the Greek by Jon Corelis Sappho Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 1 18:19:37 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 00:19:37 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fan Ogilvie Message-ID: <00f801c4f058$5ce53510$48a83452@yourpk9x5fuc06> DARK ENIGMA Sanctuary A granite boulder A sea coast A view to the sun setting Wind- I belong in not being here ? Fan Ogilvie http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=124 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 1 18:49:36 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:49:36 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry Message-ID: <1c2.2218b619.2f089110@aol.com> http://www.poets.org/index.cfm The wins & losses this year in poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 1 18:59:30 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:59:30 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture Message-ID: <127.52b38510.2f089362@aol.com> http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2004/jelinek-lecture.html I'm not familiar with her poetry, but here's Elfriede Jelinek's Nobel Lecture. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 1 21:13:51 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:13:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry References: <1c2.2218b619.2f089110@aol.com> Message-ID: <01b101c4f070$b49789d0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> http://www.poets.org/index.cfm The wins & losses this year in poetry. The wins, yes. But a lot of real poets died this year unnoticed by the Academy of American Poets. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From debra at debradicembre.com Sat Jan 1 23:09:02 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 15:09:02 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] "New Year" References: Message-ID: <004101c4f080$cc64ba50$0301010a@debraxerl89a65> Thanks Hal, I enjoyed that very much happy new year........ DD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 4:06 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] "New Year" > > New Year > > Cardinals fly up > from the edge of the near > field, another > year?s luck. > > The haiku poet gives > us a morning gift: > > Starry night: > she squeezes in between > her husband and her ex > > A road, a fence, a field. > > A table on which a book > lies open: History > of the Great American > Fortunes by Gustavus Myers. > > A glimpse out the window > of gray and white > cat. I open the door > and in it comes. > > This is the first day, > unlike any other. > > > --Halvard Johnson, NYC, 1/1/05 > > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad at opus40.org Sun Jan 2 14:16:34 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:16:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry References: <1c2.2218b619.2f089110@aol.com> <01b101c4f070$b49789d0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005201c4f0ff$947f8b90$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> I would seriously reject the idea that the passings noted by the Academy were not real poets. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry http://www.poets.org/index.cfm The wins & losses this year in poetry. The wins, yes. But a lot of real poets died this year unnoticed by the Academy of American Poets. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 2 15:09:49 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 15:09:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry References: <1c2.2218b619.2f089110@aol.com><01b101c4f070$b49789d0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005201c4f0ff$947f8b90$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <015401c4f107$07571870$4db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I would seriously reject the idea that the passings noted by the Academy were not real poets. I would contend that none of them was any longer a real poet. The academy doesn't recognize real poets although it does recognize some former poets. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Jan 2 15:58:06 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 15:58:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry References: <1c2.2218b619.2f089110@aol.com><01b101c4f070$b49789d0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c4f0ff$947f8b90$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <015401c4f107$07571870$4db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <003301c4f10d$c40e0ae0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> I completely reject that, too. I don't even know what it means. What have you done for me lately? How recently does someone have to have written a real poem for you to consider him or her a real poet? Do you give them a week? A month? Six months? It is so unbelievably difficult to create a work of art with any lasting value at all, that anyone who accomplishes it even once should be forgiven anything else he or she ever does. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry I would seriously reject the idea that the passings noted by the Academy were not real poets. I would contend that none of them was any longer a real poet. The academy doesn't recognize real poets although it does recognize some former poets. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 2 16:01:18 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:01:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry References: <1c2.2218b619.2f089110@aol.com><01b101c4f070$b49789d0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c4f0ff$947f8b90$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <015401c4f107$07571870$4db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002201c4f10e$3501e7d0$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I would seriously reject the idea that the passings noted by the Academy were not real poets. I would contend that none of them was any longer a real poet. The academy doesn't recognize real poets although it does recognize some former poets. --Bob G. Except by accident, I should add. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 2 16:38:19 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:38:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry References: <1c2.2218b619.2f089110@aol.com><01b101c4f070$b49789d0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c4f0ff$947f8b90$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><015401c4f107$07571870$4db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003301c4f10d$c40e0ae0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <003901c4f113$606d1250$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I completely reject that, too. I don't even know what it means. What have you done for me lately? How recently does someone have to have written a real poem for you to consider him or her a real poet? Do you give them a week? A month? Six months? 10 years. It is so unbelievably difficult to create a work of art with any lasting value at all, that anyone who accomplishes it even once should be forgiven anything else he or she ever does. Relax, Mole. I'm just trying to start the year with my usual flippant attack on the stasguards and their academy because the latter ignored the deaths of several important poets--poets at least the equal of the ones they listed--like Cid Corman and Bill Keith. Any excuse to insult the enemies of poetry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jan 2 17:51:03 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:51:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry References: <1c2.2218b619.2f089110@aol.com><01b101c4f070$b49789d0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c4f0ff$947f8b90$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><015401c4f107$07571870$4db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003301c4f10d$c40e0ae0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <003901c4f113$606d1250$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00a301c4f11d$899fe6c0$68ae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi Bob, it might be more interesting if you wrote them to let them know. Maybe they forgot them? I forget so many things that I am surprised I am still here. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky From: Bob Grumman Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 10:38 PM I completely reject that, too. I don't even know what it means. What have you done for me lately? How recently does someone have to have written a real poem for you to consider him or her a real poet? Do you give them a week? A month? Six months? 10 years. It is so unbelievably difficult to create a work of art with any lasting value at all, that anyone who accomplishes it even once should be forgiven anything else he or she ever does. Relax, Mole. I'm just trying to start the year with my usual flippant attack on the stasguards and their academy because the latter ignored the deaths of several important poets--poets at least the equal of the ones they listed--like Cid Corman and Bill Keith. Any excuse to insult the enemies of poetry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 2 17:55:33 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:55:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?PENNsound_=28poetry=29_now_open!=A0?= Message-ID: <8b.1dd3429c.2f09d5e5@aol.com> Subj: FW: PENNsound (poetry) now open!? Date: 1/2/2005 1:28:06 PM Eastern Standard Time From: dbarone at sjc.edu To: JforJames at aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) -----Original Message----- From: owner-whweekly at writing.upenn.edu on behalf of Al Filreis Sent: Sat 1/1/2005 5:31 PM To: Al Filreis Subject: PENNsound (poetry) now open! PENNsound http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound now open for close listening Happy New Year! Charles Bernstein & Al Filreis January 1, 2005 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 2 18:15:23 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:15:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture Message-ID: Did anyone read this Nobel address, entitled "Sidelined"?... jaws must have been dropping all over the house at Swedish Academy that evening. I couldn't really read it beyond about 3 pages, but I have three theories about this address, starting with the most kind thing I can say about it: 1) Her address was translated by someone whose first language is Sanskrit. 2) At a cocktail reception prior to her address she had a few too many kerschnoblers and leaving her lecture notes in the cab over to the hall, she decided to just wing it. 3) She's really 'out there', and I quote: "When one?s on the sidelines, one always has to be ready to jump a bit and then another bit to the side, into the empty space, which is right next to the sidelines. And the sidelines have brought their sideline pitfall along with them, it?s ready at any time, it gapes wide, to lure one even further out. Luring out is luring in. Please, I don?t want to lose sight now of the way, which I? m not on." A fourth theory is that she decided to do an extemporaneous prose poem instead of stodgy address for the ceremony. Finnegan In a message dated 1/1/2005 6:59:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Subj: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture > Date: 1/1/2005 6:59:50 PM Eastern Standard Time > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply-to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent from the Internet > > > http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2004/jelinek-lecture.html > > I'm not familiar with her poetry, but here's > Elfriede Jelinek's Nobel Lecture. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jan 2 18:26:35 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:26:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture References: Message-ID: <011501c4f122$80a510e0$68ae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> I stopped at the _curling up_ and trust you deeply, yours, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:15 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture Did anyone read this Nobel address, entitled "Sidelined"?... jaws must have been dropping all over the house at Swedish Academy that evening. I couldn't really read it beyond about 3 pages, but I have three theories about this address, starting with the most kind thing I can say about it: 1) Her address was translated by someone whose first language is Sanskrit. 2) At a cocktail reception prior to her address she had a few too many kerschnoblers and leaving her lecture notes in the cab over to the hall, she decided to just wing it. 3) She's really 'out there', and I quote: "When one?s on the sidelines, one always has to be ready to jump a bit and then another bit to the side, into the empty space, which is right next to the sidelines. And the sidelines have brought their sideline pitfall along with them, it?s ready at any time, it gapes wide, to lure one even further out. Luring out is luring in. Please, I don?t want to lose sight now of the way, which I?m not on." A fourth theory is that she decided to do an extemporaneous prose poem instead of stodgy address for the ceremony. Finnegan In a message dated 1/1/2005 6:59:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: Subj: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture Date: 1/1/2005 6:59:50 PM Eastern Standard Time From: JforJames at aol.com Reply-to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent from the Internet http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2004/jelinek-lecture.html I'm not familiar with her poetry, but here's Elfriede Jelinek's Nobel Lecture. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jan 2 19:00:38 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:00:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture References: <011501c4f122$80a510e0$68ae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <012801c4f127$423318c0$68ae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> I watched the movie: The Piano Teacher some time ago and I realized just now while reading the following: http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/personal/reading/jelinek-piano.html that she is the Author of the book. The translation of the review is not too good, but there are some true points: ___________________ unpredictable moves on the part of characters, yet she makes one come to believe in them. a.. use of anonymous titles in place of names -- Mama says, husband does.. This has the impact of universalizing the characters in clever ways. Elfriede Jelinek has the ability to make human love seem more hopeless and more disgusting than any other author I have ever read. I may be mesmerized by her writing and her characters, but I certainly work always to live in a much more hopeful and caring world than that which she pictures as rather typical of human kind. ___________________ The movie is on the relationship of a mother and her daughter. Terrifying, this is what I remember, but nevertheless true. What is misleading is that the development of what could be a universal state (a possessive and selfish mother, and I can remember how I was trying to guess the outcome, or waiting for the director to give keys to sort out the problem) derails into some extremely obscure and unpredictable psychological aspects of the protagonist: the daughter. Unpredictable because, as I said before, the first part of the movie is so centered and psychologically oriented on a wrong relationship that the audience is waiting for a logical break-down, it is too wired up not to collapse somewhere. But there might be some truth with the solution of the perversion of the daughter, who as a victim needs to be in contact with other _slaves_. I don't know, I feel a little dislocated here, and fundamentally, even if I tried to analyze the movie, it sort of didn't convince me. I practically removed it as a not too well accomplished melange of reality and fiction, and only now it came back through this review. Take care, Anny From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:26 AM I stopped at the _curling up_ and trust you deeply, yours, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:15 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture Did anyone read this Nobel address, entitled "Sidelined"?... jaws must have been dropping all over the house at Swedish Academy that evening. I couldn't really read it beyond about 3 pages, but I have three theories about this address, starting with the most kind thing I can say about it: 1) Her address was translated by someone whose first language is Sanskrit. 2) At a cocktail reception prior to her address she had a few too many kerschnoblers and leaving her lecture notes in the cab over to the hall, she decided to just wing it. 3) She's really 'out there', and I quote: "When one?s on the sidelines, one always has to be ready to jump a bit and then another bit to the side, into the empty space, which is right next to the sidelines. And the sidelines have brought their sideline pitfall along with them, it?s ready at any time, it gapes wide, to lure one even further out. Luring out is luring in. Please, I don?t want to lose sight now of the way, which I?m not on." A fourth theory is that she decided to do an extemporaneous prose poem instead of stodgy address for the ceremony. Finnegan In a message dated 1/1/2005 6:59:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: Subj: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture Date: 1/1/2005 6:59:50 PM Eastern Standard Time From: JforJames at aol.com Reply-to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent from the Internet http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2004/jelinek-lecture.html I'm not familiar with her poetry, but here's Elfriede Jelinek's Nobel Lecture. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 2 19:02:02 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:02:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] nObEl poem Message-ID: <1f4.3c7ec5f.2f09e57a@aol.com> Typo Set in Stone Isaac Bashevis Singer's headstone corrected 5 years after his death: Noble Laureate changed to "Nobel" Down on his hells, he spite, stammered, gravelled at their feet. How they had made him a whorse's ass. Oh but he was biting his time, one day he'd make mice-meat out of his enemies. Invoke the holey hosts, the vigilant angles. Break the spines of the unread books, their guilt-leaf edges. The pages red in haste, nothing remembered, nothing but the inky strains. All the words strange and the people merely payers. Let bookcases be our ladders, we shall climb out of this pit of ignorance, our dark mines. Owl' Issac, tool ate, you can't give back the ignobel loot, that blasted dynamight, world blown all to heel. God by, farwell. All monuments misspilt, stone trophies above the dread who would give back all the fine flame and honey for an hour in the shade of an ok tree, any tree, just for one day above the dearth, a word that death mated to the things of this good earth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jan 2 19:15:33 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:15:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] nObEl poem References: <1f4.3c7ec5f.2f09e57a@aol.com> Message-ID: <016501c4f129$588cc470$68ae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi Pottery James, High Loetry! Loyally, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 1:02 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] nObEl poem Typo Set in Stone Isaac Bashevis Singer's headstone corrected 5 years after his death: Noble Laureate changed to "Nobel" Down on his hells, he spite, stammered, gravelled at their feet. How they had made him a whorse's ass. Oh but he was biting his time, one day he'd make mice-meat out of his enemies. Invoke the holey hosts, the vigilant angles. Break the spines of the unread books, their guilt-leaf edges. The pages red in haste, nothing remembered, nothing but the inky strains. All the words strange and the people merely payers. Let bookcases be our ladders, we shall climb out of this pit of ignorance, our dark mines. Owl' Issac, tool ate, you can't give back the ignobel loot, that blasted dynamight, world blown all to heel. God by, farwell. All monuments misspilt, stone trophies above the dread who would give back all the fine flame and honey for an hour in the shade of an ok tree, any tree, just for one day above the dearth, a word that death mated to the things of this good earth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Jan 2 19:16:24 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:16:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture References: Message-ID: <001801c4f129$78230290$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> I liked the part about the fangs on the comb. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture Did anyone read this Nobel address, entitled "Sidelined"?... jaws must have been dropping all over the house at Swedish Academy that evening. I couldn't really read it beyond about 3 pages, but I have three theories about this address, starting with the most kind thing I can say about it: 1) Her address was translated by someone whose first language is Sanskrit. 2) At a cocktail reception prior to her address she had a few too many kerschnoblers and leaving her lecture notes in the cab over to the hall, she decided to just wing it. 3) She's really 'out there', and I quote: "When one?s on the sidelines, one always has to be ready to jump a bit and then another bit to the side, into the empty space, which is right next to the sidelines. And the sidelines have brought their sideline pitfall along with them, it?s ready at any time, it gapes wide, to lure one even further out. Luring out is luring in. Please, I don?t want to lose sight now of the way, which I?m not on." A fourth theory is that she decided to do an extemporaneous prose poem instead of stodgy address for the ceremony. Finnegan In a message dated 1/1/2005 6:59:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: Subj: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture Date: 1/1/2005 6:59:50 PM Eastern Standard Time From: JforJames at aol.com Reply-to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent from the Internet http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2004/jelinek-lecture.html I'm not familiar with her poetry, but here's Elfriede Jelinek's Nobel Lecture. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 2 19:17:59 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:17:59 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture Message-ID: <195.35a0bc4e.2f09e937@aol.com> In a message dated 1/2/2005 7:16:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > I liked the part about the fangs on the comb. > So then you didn't read it all either? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Jan 2 19:20:07 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:20:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture References: <195.35a0bc4e.2f09e937@aol.com> Message-ID: <001c01c4f129$fce36290$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> I read more than Anny. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture In a message dated 1/2/2005 7:16:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: I liked the part about the fangs on the comb. So then you didn't read it all either? Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 2 19:29:11 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:29:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture Message-ID: <8c.1d693707.2f09ebd7@aol.com> In a message dated 1/2/2005 7:20:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > I read more than Anny. > > But you have factor in the time zones...Anny must be up late or up early reading...and anything we read after 1AM becomes Proust. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jan 2 19:40:00 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:40:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture References: <8c.1d693707.2f09ebd7@aol.com> Message-ID: <002801c4f12c$c22eab70$68ae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Heading to sleep, promise promise. From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 1:29 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jelinek's Nobel Lecture In a message dated 1/2/2005 7:20:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: I read more than Anny. But you have factor in the time zones...Anny must be up late or up early reading...and anything we read after 1AM becomes Proust. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 2 21:14:02 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 21:14:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Recap of 2004 in Poetry References: <1c2.2218b619.2f089110@aol.com><01b101c4f070$b49789d0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005201c4f0ff$947f8b90$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><015401c4f107$07571870$4db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003301c4f10d$c40e0ae0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><003901c4f113$606d1250$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00a301c4f11d$899fe6c0$68ae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <00a401c4f13a$00c31a80$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hi Bob, it might be more interesting if you wrote them to let them know. Maybe they forgot them? I forget so many things that I am surprised I am still here. I write them every year, Anny. I reply to their requests for money by telling them that since I am a poet, I can't understand why they would think I'd want to contribute anything to so overt an enemy of poetry. For some reason, I've never heard back from them. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Mon Jan 3 01:31:18 2005 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 22:31:18 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Elfriede Jelinek - Nobel Lecture In-Reply-To: <200501030210.j032ACAl018246@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050102220650.00bd90c8@incoming.verizon.net> > JforJames at aol.com wrote >here's Elfriede Jelinek's Nobel Lecture. granted, a hard chew, but also often Steinian-eloquent and a tonic against merciless bullies who rant and demean coarsely for sake of some depressing, childish hope of "language-profit." a few (available) excerpts: The sidelines are at the service of the life, that precisely does not take place there, otherwise we would not all be in the thick of it, in the fullness, the fullness of human life, and it is at the service of the observation of the life, which is always taking place somewhere else. Where one is not. And this dog, language, which is supposed to protect me, that's why I have him, after all, is now snapping at my heels. My protector wants to bite me. My only protector against being described, language, which, conversely, exists to describe something else, that I am not - that is why I cover so much paper - my only protector is turning against me. Perhaps I only keep him at all, so that he, while pretending to protect me, pounces on me. Language knows what it wants. Good for it, because I don't know, no not at all. Talk, talking in general keeps on talking over there now, because there's always talking, talking, without beginning or end I am chased ever deeper into this space beyond the sidelines. My language is already wallowing blissfully in its muddy pool, the little provisional grave on the way, and it looks up at the grave in the air, it wallows on its back, a friendly creature, which would like to please human beings like any respectable language, it wallows, opens its legs, presumably to let itself be stroked, why else. It's greedy for caresses, after all. That stops it from gazing after the dead, so that I must gaze after them instead, and of course in the end it's down to me. When one looks, one moves further away from the object, the longer one looks at it. When one speaks, one catches hold of it again, but one cannot hold onto it. It tears itself away and hurries after its own naming, the many words I have made and I have lost. ...there's nothing to be said about me, there's nothing to be said, nothing more to be said. I'm always only gazing after life, my language turns its back on me, so that it can present its stomach to strangers to caress, shameless, to me it only shows its back, if anything at all. I am the prisoner of my language -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 2 08:46:27 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:46:27 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Thanks :) Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: the_message.vbs Type: application/octet-stream Size: 71712 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 2 09:01:39 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 22:01:39 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Yahoo! Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Readme.vbs Type: application/octet-stream Size: 69374 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 3 09:06:02 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:06:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Elfriede Jelinek - Nobel Lecture Message-ID: <1da.32f49626.2f0aab4a@aol.com> In a message dated 1/3/2005 1:31:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, barry.spacks at verizon.net writes: > granted, a hard chew, but also often Steinian-eloquent > Stein would never engage in mealy-mouthed metaphysics. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jan 3 15:14:46 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 21:14:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] psychomagic Message-ID: <00b801c4f1d0$df44b4d0$1caa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Eleonora Gelmo sent me a file on Psychomagic, if you are as ignorant as I am, I put it on my blog. Worth a sec. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 2 17:28:15 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 06:28:15 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Document Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Nervous_illnesses.vbs Type: application/octet-stream Size: 71144 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 2 19:09:32 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 08:09:32 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Incoming message Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Information.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 20574 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 2 19:30:01 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 08:30:01 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Message Notify Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Details.vbs Type: application/octet-stream Size: 70391 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Jan 4 16:45:03 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:45:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] Elena Shvarts Message-ID: <000901c4f2a6$a663fc80$9b2ab750@yourpk9x5fuc06> . With a thank you to Henry Gould for sending me to Elena Shvars site: Memorial Candle I so love the flame That I kiss it, I stretch out my hand to it And wash my face in it. Tender spirits live In its flower bud, A circle of delicate forces Rings around it. This is their home, Their shell, their joy. Anything else would make Too crude a place for them. I burned my hair, Singed my eyelashes, I thought you were there, Trembling in the flame. Maybe you are trying To whisper a small word of light to me. The low flame trembles, But in me there is only darkness. Elena Shvarts . -- Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 1/4/2005 10:39:45 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 4 20:03:43 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:03:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Coming Up @ Poets House Message-ID: From: announce at poetshouse.org Sent from the Internet (Details) Coming Up @ Poets House 1/7: "Walking, Poems & Buildings" Exhibition Opens 1/20: Ron Padgett on Pierre Reverdy 1/22: Poetry in the Children's Room An Exhibition: "Walking, Poems & Buildings" A Poetry & Architecture Collaboration Curated by poet Annie Finch & architect Ben Jacks Opening Reception with reading by Annie Finch: Friday, January 7, 6-8pm On view through February 25 The exhibit "Walking, Poems & Buildings" features poems and architectural models of a bus shelter, a 'writer's hut,' and a nature observation center created collaboratively by students of poet Annie Finch and architect Ben Jacks at Miami University. This show explores the ways in which architects and poets build and inhabit durable and harmonious forms, and how walking creates a rhythmic link between the two pursuits. _________________________________________________________ ?? Passwords: Ron Padgett on Pierre Reverdy Thursday, January 20, 7pm $7, Free for Members Poet Ron Padgett discusses the poetry of Pierre Reverdy (1889-1960), a prolific poet and a central figure of France's avant-garde artistic and literary circles from the 1910s to the early 1920s. Ron Padgett's most recent books include Joe: A Memoir of Joe Brainard, You Never Know and Oklahoma Tough: My Father, King of the Tulsa Bootleggers. He is the editor of The Handbook of Poetic Forms and the translator of Blaise Cendrars? Complete Poems. Padgett has taught at Columbia and Brooklyn College, and for 20 years he was publications director at Teachers & Writers Collaborative. _________________________________________________________ ?? Poetry in the Children's Room Not So True Stories & Unreasonable Rhymes: A Workshop & Reading with Carin Berger Saturday, January 22, 11am Author and artist Carin Berger reads poetry from her new children's book and shows us how to make the kooky collage characters it features. _________________________________________________________ Poets House is a literary center and poetry archive that invites poets and the public to step into the living tradition of poetry. Our 45,000 volumes of books, journals, chapbooks, audiotapes, videos and electronic media is among the most comprehensive open-access collection of poetry in the United States. The Reading Room is free and open to the public Tuesday-Friday, 11-7pm & Saturday 11-4pm. The Children's Reading Room is open Saturday 11-1pm. Please call (212) 431-7920 or visit our website http://www.poetshouse.org for more information. Poets House 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor, New York, NY? 10012 _________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the Poets House mailing list please email remove at poetshouse.org and specify "Remove" in the subject line. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jan 5 05:18:48 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:18:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets? Message-ID: <006401c4f30f$f25237b0$7baa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> >From Today in Literature: "A poet in history is divine, but a poet in the next room is a joke." Max Eastman, who was born on this day in 1883 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 5 08:27:47 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:27:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets? References: <006401c4f30f$f25237b0$7baa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <005f01c4f32a$59590a00$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> From Today in Literature: "A poet in history is divine, but a poet in the next room is a joke." Max Eastman, who was born on this day in 1883 But not as funny a one as the people in your room. Bob Grumman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 5 09:45:33 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:45:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets? References: <006401c4f30f$f25237b0$7baa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> <005f01c4f32a$59590a00$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002501c4f335$378cd810$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Unfortunately, I think this is really funny. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets? From Today in Literature: "A poet in history is divine, but a poet in the next room is a joke." Max Eastman, who was born on this day in 1883 But not as funny a one as the people in your room. Bob Grumman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 5 11:19:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:19:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets? References: <006401c4f30f$f25237b0$7baa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06><005f01c4f32a$59590a00$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002501c4f335$378cd810$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00f501c4f342$511b20e0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Unfortunately, I think this is really funny. Eastman's or mine? Or both? I thought Eastman's was funny, myself. I thought mine was okay. --Bob G. >From Today in Literature: "A poet in history is divine, but a poet in the next room is a joke." But not as funny a one as the people in your room. Bob Grumman ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jan 5 11:35:47 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:35:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets? References: <006401c4f30f$f25237b0$7baa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06><005f01c4f32a$59590a00$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002501c4f335$378cd810$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <00f501c4f342$511b20e0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00bc01c4f344$9c980270$08ae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> I think they are both funny, and yours Bob gives even better the idea of what Eastman meant. From: Bob Grumman Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:19 PM Unfortunately, I think this is really funny. Eastman's or mine? Or both? I thought Eastman's was funny, myself. I thought mine was okay. --Bob G. From Today in Literature: "A poet in history is divine, but a poet in the next room is a joke." But not as funny a one as the people in your room. Bob Grumman -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lattaj at umich.edu Wed Jan 5 11:44:31 2005 From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:44:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Guy Davenport, 1927-2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wood s lot is where I learned it: Guy Davenport died yesterday. Surely one of the immortals. http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/10564594.htm http://www.uky.edu/PR/News/050104_guy_davenport.htm John Latta From debra at debradicembre.com Wed Jan 5 17:28:29 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:28:29 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets? References: <006401c4f30f$f25237b0$7baa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06><005f01c4f32a$59590a00$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002501c4f335$378cd810$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <001a01c4f375$e3452820$0301010a@debraxerl89a65> me too ... dd ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 1:45 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets? Unfortunately, I think this is really funny. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets? From Today in Literature: "A poet in history is divine, but a poet in the next room is a joke." Max Eastman, who was born on this day in 1883 But not as funny a one as the people in your room. Bob Grumman ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 5 17:36:48 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:36:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets? References: <006401c4f30f$f25237b0$7baa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06><005f01c4f32a$59590a00$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002501c4f335$378cd810$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <00f501c4f342$511b20e0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005c01c4f377$0d432ae0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> I confess it was Eastman's that really struck me. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets? Unfortunately, I think this is really funny. Eastman's or mine? Or both? I thought Eastman's was funny, myself. I thought mine was okay. --Bob G. From Today in Literature: "A poet in history is divine, but a poet in the next room is a joke." But not as funny a one as the people in your room. Bob Grumman -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From debra at debradicembre.com Wed Jan 5 18:14:12 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:14:12 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets? References: <006401c4f30f$f25237b0$7baa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06><005f01c4f32a$59590a00$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002501c4f335$378cd810$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><00f501c4f342$511b20e0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005c01c4f377$0d432ae0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <005b01c4f37c$465a6500$0301010a@debraxerl89a65> yes, not as clumsy a one... dd ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets? I confess it was Eastman's that really struck me. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets? Unfortunately, I think this is really funny. Eastman's or mine? Or both? I thought Eastman's was funny, myself. I thought mine was okay. --Bob G. From Today in Literature: "A poet in history is divine, but a poet in the next room is a joke." But not as funny a one as the people in your room. Bob Grumman ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 5 19:52:50 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:52:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets? References: <006401c4f30f$f25237b0$7baa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06><005f01c4f32a$59590a00$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002501c4f335$378cd810$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><00f501c4f342$511b20e0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00bc01c4f344$9c980270$08ae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <01d301c4f38a$0c9479b0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I'll accept "weak" as a description of my retort to Eastman, but not "clumsy." --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 5 20:32:51 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:32:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] poets? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/5/2005 5:19:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: > "A poet in history is divine, but a poet in the next room is a > joke." > > Max Eastman, " a poet kind of goes with anything, any kind of decor, indoor, out. Presidents like to have poets next to them, we're sort of like a speaking wreath, the kind of poet you pick tells the kind of president you are, the hell of dating or marrying a poet is that certainly we will write about you, so if you don't want to be seen, don't date a poet, anyone should know that. Because really a poet has nothing better to do than look at you. A poet's best friend is her dog, because instantly the dog will take the poet on walks, the poet is like the earth's shadow. The sun moves and the poet writes something down. I felt so happy to be invited here by the class of 98 that I bought a new suit. I guess by now you've gotten the idea that I am your poet. So I feel good, and I look good and now I'd like to go a little further, simply doing my job." Universal Cycle by Eileen Myles http://www.eileenmyles.com/speech1.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jan 6 11:12:36 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:12:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* Message-ID: <001201c4f40a$8951b460$e86fec04@computer> "We know that an idea, a novel or a poem, may begin at some point or germ, grow, finding its being and necessary form, rhythm and life as the germ evolves in relation to its environment of language and experience in life. This is an art that rises from a deep belief in the universe as a medium of forms, in man's quest as a spiritual evolution. "In contrast, conventional art, with its conviction that form means adherence to an imposed order where metric and rime are means of conformation, rises from a belief that man by artifice must win his forms (as models, reproductions or paradigms) against his nature, areas of control in a universe that is a matter of chaos." --Robert Duncan fr. *The Day Book* as excerpted in *The Gist of Origin: 1951-1971* [New York: Grossman/Viking Press, 1975] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jan 6 17:15:04 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:15:04 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kipling from PoemHunter Message-ID: <005001c4f43d$2cbbbce0$0ea93252@yourpk9x5fuc06> A Child's Garden R. L. Stevenson Now there is nothing wrong with me Except -- I think it's called T.B. And that is why I have to lay Out in the garden all the day. Our garden is not very wide And cars go by on either side, And make an angry-hooty noise That rather startles little boys. But worst of all is when they take Me out in cars that growl and shake, With charabancs so dreadful-near I have to shut my eyes for fear. But when I'm on my back again, I watch the Croydon aeroplane That flies across to France, and sings Like hitting thick piano-strings. When I am strong enough to do The things I'm truly wishful to, I'll never use a car or train But always have an aeroplane; And just go zooming round and round, And frighten Nursey with the sound, And see the angel-side of clouds, And spit on all those motor-crowds! Rudyard Kipling Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 6 19:32:53 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:32:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* In-Reply-To: <001201c4f40a$8951b460$e86fec04@computer> References: <001201c4f40a$8951b460$e86fec04@computer> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > "We know that an idea, a novel or a poem, may begin > at some point or germ, grow, finding its being and necessary > form, rhythm and life as the germ evolves in relation to its > environment of language and experience in life. This is an art > that rises from a deep belief in the universe as a medium of > forms, in man's quest as a spiritual evolution. > "In contrast, conventional art, with its conviction that > form means adherence to an imposed order where metric > and rime are means of conformation, rises from a belief that > man by artifice must win his forms (as models, reproductions > or paradigms) against his nature, areas of control in a universe > that is a matter of chaos." > > --Robert Duncan > > fr. *The Day Book* as excerpted in *The Gist of Origin: > 1951-1971* [New York: Grossman/Viking Press, 1975] > > Hal, that's just ignorant, self-serving poppycock on Duncan's part. At least I hope it's ignorant -- of the way in which metrical poets work, of the fact that human artifice IS human nature, of the fact that his poetry is no less artificial (though it's certainly lesser) than that of Richard Wilbur -- otherwise it's a sef-serving lie. MIke S. From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 6 19:34:28 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:34:28 -0500 Subject: Another Kipling -- was Re: [New-Poetry] Kipling from PoemHunter In-Reply-To: <005001c4f43d$2cbbbce0$0ea93252@yourpk9x5fuc06> References: <005001c4f43d$2cbbbce0$0ea93252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2005, at 5:15 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > A Child's Garden > > R. L. Stevenson > > > Now there is nothing wrong with me > Except -- I think it's called T.B. > And that is why I have to lay > Out in the garden all the day. > > Our garden is not very wide > And cars go by on either side, > And make an angry-hooty noise > That rather startles little boys. > > But worst of all is when they take > Me out in cars that growl and shake, > With charabancs so dreadful-near > I have to shut my eyes for fear. > > But when I'm on my back again, > I watch the Croydon aeroplane > That flies across to France, and sings > Like hitting thick piano-strings. > > When I am strong enough to do > The things I'm truly wishful to, > I'll never use a car or train > But always have an aeroplane; > > And just go zooming round and round, > And frighten Nursey with the sound, > And see the angel-side of clouds, > And spit on all those motor-crowds! > > Rudyard Kipling > > ? Mesopotamia 1917 They shall not return to us, the resolute, the young, The eager and whole-hearted whom we gave: But the men who left them thriftily to die in their own dung, Shall they come with years and honour to the grave? They shall not return to us; the strong men coldly slain In sight of help denied from day to day: But the men who edged their agonies and chid them in their pain, Are they too strong and wise to put away? Our dead shall not return to us while Day and Night divide? Never while the bars of sunset hold. But the idle-minded overlings who quibbled while they died, Shall they thrust for high employments as of old? Shall we only threaten and be angry for an hour: When the storm is ended shall we find How softly but how swiftly they have sidled back to power By the favour and contrivance of their kind? Even while they soothe us, while they promise large amends, Even while they make a show of fear, Do they call upon their debtors, and take counsel with their friends, To conform and re-establish each career? Their lives cannot repay us?their death could not undo? The shame that they have laid upon our race. But the slothfulness that wasted and the arrogance that slew, Shall we leave it unabated in its place? From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 6 21:49:29 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:49:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* References: <001201c4f40a$8951b460$e86fec04@computer> Message-ID: <020f01c4f463$827fa6c0$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > On Jan 6, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> >> "We know that an idea, a novel or a poem, may begin >> at some point or germ, grow, finding its being and necessary >> form, rhythm and life as the germ evolves in relation to its >> environment of language and experience in life. This is an art >> that rises from a deep belief in the universe as a medium of >> forms, in man's quest as a spiritual evolution. >> "In contrast, conventional art, with its conviction that >> form means adherence to an imposed order where metric >> and rime are means of conformation, rises from a belief that >> man by artifice must win his forms (as models, reproductions >> or paradigms) against his nature, areas of control in a universe >> that is a matter of chaos." >> >> --Robert Duncan >> >> fr. *The Day Book* as excerpted in *The Gist of Origin: >> 1951-1971* [New York: Grossman/Viking Press, 1975] > > > Hal, that's just ignorant, self-serving poppycock on Duncan's part. At > least I hope it's ignorant -- of the way in which metrical poets work, of > the fact that human artifice IS human nature, of the fact that his poetry > is no less artificial (though it's certainly lesser) than that of Richard > Wilbur -- otherwise it's a sef-serving lie. > > Mike S. Makes sense to me, although there's probably a lot more to be said about the matter. It doesn't seem self-serving, at all, for it seems to me from just the excerpt that Duncan was simply describing two equal ways of making poems. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jan 7 08:51:08 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:51:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* Message-ID: <196.35e2835f.2f0fedcc@aol.com> In a message dated 1/6/2005 7:33:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: > > "We know that an idea, a novel or a poem, may begin > >at some point or germ, grow, finding its being and necessary > >form, rhythm and life as the germ evolves in relation to its > >environment of language and experience in life. This is an art > >that rises from a deep belief in the universe as a medium of > >forms, in man's quest as a spiritual evolution. > > "In contrast, conventional art, with its conviction that > >form means adherence to an imposed order where metric > >and rime are means of conformation, rises from a belief that > >man by artifice must win his forms (as models, reproductions > >or paradigms) against his nature, areas of control in a universe > >that is a matter of chaos." > > > >--Robert Duncan > > > >fr. *The Day Book* as excerpted in *The Gist of Origin: > >1951-1971* [New York: Grossman/Viking Press, 1975] > > > > > > > Hal, that's just ignorant, self-serving poppycock on Duncan's part. At > least I hope it's ignorant -- of the way in which metrical poets work, > of the fact that human artifice IS human nature, of the fact that his > poetry is no less artificial (though it's certainly lesser) than that > of Richard Wilbur -- otherwise it's a sef-serving lie. > > MIke S. > I wouldn't say it's a lie...it's pressing a point a view that may be flawed to some degree, but not a lie, per se. Isn't this in line with 'organic form' theories that were popular as free verse took hold in modern poetics? All points of view are self-serving to some degree, and sure, Duncan hits 'conventional art/forms' a bit hard, and one could argue that Sear Tower is no less natural, albeit man-made, than Denali, but that argument confuses what is a long-standing philosophical divide between human works and things naturally arising. Certainly humannkind, has become more the actor than the acted upon, tsunamis and such aside. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jan 7 09:12:53 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:12:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* References: <196.35e2835f.2f0fedcc@aol.com> Message-ID: <00c401c4f4c2$fb432190$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In a message dated 1/6/2005 7:33:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: > "We know that an idea, a novel or a poem, may begin >at some point or germ, grow, finding its being and necessary >form, rhythm and life as the germ evolves in relation to its >environment of language and experience in life. This is an art >that rises from a deep belief in the universe as a medium of >forms, in man's quest as a spiritual evolution. > "In contrast, conventional art, with its conviction that >form means adherence to an imposed order where metric >and rime are means of conformation, rises from a belief that >man by artifice must win his forms (as models, reproductions >or paradigms) against his nature, areas of control in a universe >that is a matter of chaos." > >--Robert Duncan > >fr. *The Day Book* as excerpted in *The Gist of Origin: >1951-1971* [New York: Grossman/Viking Press, 1975] > > Hal, that's just ignorant, self-serving poppycock on Duncan's part. At least I hope it's ignorant -- of the way in which metrical poets work, of the fact that human artifice IS human nature, of the fact that his poetry is no less artificial (though it's certainly lesser) than that of Richard Wilbur -- otherwise it's a sef-serving lie. MIke S. I wouldn't say it's a lie...it's pressing a point a view that may be flawed to some degree, but not a lie, per se. Isn't this in line with 'organic form' theories that were popular as free verse took hold in modern poetics? All points of view are self-serving to some degree, and sure, Duncan hits 'conventional art/forms' a bit hard, and one could argue that Sear Tower is no less natural, albeit man-made, than Denali, but that argument confuses what is a long-standing philosophical divide between human works and things naturally arising. Certainly humannkind, has become more the actor than the acted upon, tsunamis and such aside. Finnegan Isn't all he saying is that some poets flow with Nature because they believe nature will provide them with appropriate forms, and other poets impose form on Nature because they find it chaotic? Where is he saying one way is better than the other? Where is he saying one way is better than the other? Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Fri Jan 7 10:46:36 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 10:46:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* In-Reply-To: <00c401c4f4c2$fb432190$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <196.35e2835f.2f0fedcc@aol.com> <00c401c4f4c2$fb432190$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <749950.1105112796466.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Friday, January 07, 2005, at 09:13AM, Bob Grumman wrote: In a message dated 1/6/2005 7:33:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: > "We know that an idea, a novel or a poem, may begin >at some point or germ, grow, finding its being and necessary >form, rhythm and life as the germ evolves in relation to its >environment of language and experience in life. This is an art >that rises from a deep belief in the universe as a medium of >forms, in man's quest as a spiritual evolution. > "In contrast, conventional art, with its conviction that >form means adherence to an imposed order where metric >and rime are means of conformation, rises from a belief that >man by artifice must win his forms (as models, reproductions >or paradigms) against his nature, areas of control in a universe >that is a matter of chaos." > >--Robert Duncan > >fr. *The Day Book* as excerpted in *The Gist of Origin: >1951-1971* [New York: Grossman/Viking Press, 1975] > > Hal, that's just ignorant, self-serving poppycock on Duncan's part. At least I hope it's ignorant -- of the way in which metrical poets work, of the fact that human artifice IS human nature, of the fact that his poetry is no less artificial (though it's certainly lesser) than that of Richard Wilbur -- otherwise it's a sef-serving lie. MIke S. I wouldn't say it's a lie...it's pressing a point a view that may be flawed to some degree, but not a lie, per se. Isn't this in line with 'organic form' theories that were popular as free verse took hold in modern poetics? All points of view are self-serving to some degree, and sure, Duncan hits 'conventional art/forms' a bit hard, and one could argue that Sear Tower is no less natural, albeit man-made, than Denali, but that argument confuses what is a long-standing philosophical divide between human works and things naturally arising. Certainly humannkind, has become more the actor than the acted upon, tsunamis and such aside. Finnegan Isn't all he saying is that some poets flow with Nature because they believe nature will provide them with appropriate forms, and other poets impose form on Nature because they find it chaotic? Where is he saying one way is better than the other? Where is he saying one way is better than the other? Bob G. Your paraphrase seems correct to me, Bob, but for Duncan, for Levertov, and for many of the other poets who made this kind of statement it clearly was a judgement and not merely a description. As a description it simply wrong -- neither kind of poet is more or less flowing with or imposing on Nature than the other kind of poet. James, I don't think it was a lie, either. One shouldn't attribute to malevolence what can be explained by ignorance. Mike S ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From elemenope at icubed.com Fri Jan 7 00:31:12 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:31:12 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duncan's "Organic Form" vs. Alcoa's Brilliant Kool In-Reply-To: <200501071700.j07H03Am023868@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200501071700.j07H03Am023868@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: The 1950s bequeathed to the Ages the Aluminum Christmas Tree. Radiant, each branch geodesically accurate, this artifact is as riveting to the unprepared eye as is a Flying Saucer. A Poem that achieves such pristine artificiality, each of its verses starting and stopping with superhuman accuracy, all of its rimes, every foot dancing triplessly, a music box tinkling perfectly in its own eternal Christmas morning, would have to be judged as adhering to an imposed form, its prosodic architecture being a means of conformation to the acme of artifice. The "very idea" of such an imposed form descends from the pure world of matematikal forms articulated by Plato and Fuller. To the Beats of the 50s, the Alcoa Xmas Tree was a horrifying prospect against which they set the full measure of their imaginations. This is not all I have to say on this topic, but all I have to say presently, however imperfectly. R i c h a r d D i l l o n >At 12:54 PM +0800 1/7/05, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: >>On Friday, January 07, 2005, at 09:13AM, Bob Grumman >> wrote: >> >>In a message dated 1/6/2005 7:33:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>mandolin at mac.com writes: >> >> >>> "We know that an idea, a novel or a poem, may begin >>>at some point or germ, grow, finding its being and necessary >>>form, rhythm and life as the germ evolves in relation to its >>>environment of language and experience in life. This is an art >>>that rises from a deep belief in the universe as a medium of >>>forms, in man's quest as a spiritual evolution. >>> "In contrast, conventional art, with its conviction that >>>form means adherence to an imposed order where metric >>>and rime are means of conformation, rises from a belief that >>>man by artifice must win his forms (as models, reproductions >>>or paradigms) against his nature, areas of control in a universe >>>that is a matter of chaos." >>> >>>--Robert Duncan >>> >>>fr. *The Day Book* as excerpted in *The Gist of Origin: >>>1951-1971* [New York: Grossman/Viking Press, 1975] >> > >>> >> >> >>Hal, that's just ignorant, self-serving poppycock on Duncan's part. At >>least I hope it's ignorant -- of the way in which metrical poets work, >>of the fact that human artifice IS human nature, of the fact that his >>poetry is no less artificial (though it's certainly lesser) than that >>of Richard Wilbur -- otherwise it's a sef-serving lie. >> >>MIke S. >> >> >> >>I wouldn't say it's a lie...it's pressing a point a view that may be >>flawed to some degree, but not a lie, per se. Isn't this in line >>with 'organic form' theories that were popular as free verse took >>hold in modern poetics? All points of view are self-serving to >>some degree, and sure, Duncan hits 'conventional art/forms' a >>bit hard, and one could argue that Sear Tower is no less natural, >>albeit man-made, than Denali, but that argument confuses >>what is a long-standing philosophical divide between human >>works and things naturally arising. Certainly humannkind, >>has become more the actor than the acted upon, tsunamis >>and such aside. >>Finnegan >>Isn't all he saying is that some poets flow with Nature because >>they believe nature will provide them with appropriate forms, and >>other poets impose form on Nature because they find it chaotic? >>Where is he saying one way is better than the other? >> >>Where is he saying one way is better than the other? >> >>Bob G. >> >> >>Your paraphrase seems correct to me, Bob, but for Duncan, for >>Levertov, and for many of the other poets who made this kind of >>statement it clearly was a judgement and not merely a description. >>As a description it simply wrong -- neither kind of poet is more or >>less flowing with or imposing on Nature than the other kind of poet. >> >>James, I don't think it was a lie, either. One shouldn't attribute >>to malevolence what can be explained by ignorance. >> >> >>Mike S -- From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jan 7 14:25:24 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:25:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* Message-ID: In a message dated 1/7/2005 10:46:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: Your paraphrase seems correct to me, Bob, but for Duncan, for Levertov, and for many of the other poets who made this kind of statement it clearly was a judgement and not merely a description. As a description it simply wrong -- neither kind of poet is more or less flowing with or imposing on Nature than the other kind of poet. James, I don't think it was a lie, either. One shouldn't attribute to malevolence what can be explained by ignorance. Mike, well 'ignorance', too, is too strong a word for me. Duncan and Levertov don't strike me as the ignorant kind. Also, I'd like to make the point that a similar and no less flawed argument has been made by many fanatical formalists. Meter is natural because it's related to the heartbeat, or to bi-pedal locomotion, or copulation, or some such nonsense. Then there was that book the The Neural Lyre (or was Neural Liar)...see Turner & Poppel: "Modernist esthetic theory may be ignoring the following possibility: that our species' special adaptation may in fact be to expect more order and meaning in the world than it can deliver; and that those expectations may constitute, paradoxically, an excellent survival strategy. We are strongly motivated to restore the equilibrium between reality and our expectations by altering reality so as to validate our models of it-to "make the world a better place," as we put it. The modernist attack on beauty in art would therefore constitute an attack on our very nature itself; and the modernist and post-modernist criticism of moral and philosophical idealism likewise flies in the face of the apparent facts about human neural organization. What William James called "the will to believe" is written in our genes; teleology is the best policy; and paradoxically, it is utopian to attempt to do battle against our natural idealism. Much more sensible to adjust reality to the ideal." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jan 7 14:47:56 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 20:47:56 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* References: Message-ID: <00a501c4f4f1$c9e1ca50$6ba83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* In a message dated 1/7/2005 10:46:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: Your paraphrase seems correct to me, Bob, but for Duncan, for Levertov, and for many of the other poets who made this kind of statement it clearly was a judgement and not merely a description. As a description it simply wrong -- neither kind of poet is more or less flowing with or imposing on Nature than the other kind of poet. James, I don't think it was a lie, either. One shouldn't attribute to malevolence what can be explained by ignorance. Mike, well 'ignorance', too, is too strong a word for me. Duncan and Levertov don't strike me as the ignorant kind. Also, I'd like to make the point that a similar and no less flawed argument has been made by many fanatical formalists. Meter is natural because it's related to the heartbeat, or to bi-pedal locomotion, or copulation, or some such nonsense. Then there was that book the The Neural Lyre (or was Neural Liar)...see Turner & Poppel: "Modernist esthetic theory may be ignoring the following possibility: that our species' special adaptation may in fact be to expect more order and meaning in the world than it can deliver; and that those expectations may constitute, paradoxically, an excellent survival strategy. We are strongly motivated to restore the equilibrium between reality and our expectations by altering reality so as to validate our models of it-to "make the world a better place," as we put it. The modernist attack on beauty in art would therefore constitute an attack on our very nature itself; and the modernist and post-modernist criticism of moral and philosophical idealism likewise flies in the face of the apparent facts about human neural organization. What William James called "the will to believe" is written in our genes; teleology is the best policy; and paradoxically, it is utopian to attempt to do battle against our natural idealism. Much more sensible to adjust reality to the ideal." Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I agree with this: it is utopian to attempt to do battle against our natural idealism. Much more sensible to adjust reality to the ideal." and this: We are strongly motivated to restore the equilibrium between reality and our expectations by altering reality so as to validate our models of it-to "make the world a better place, and what is almost inexplicable is that we do it automatically, I do believe in a positive outcome as an Utopian - with disgraceful falls, but I usually float back up, simply because I cannot throw away my ideals just like that. A wonderful explanation. (It is still early here...) Anny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Fri Jan 7 02:32:44 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:32:44 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duncan's "Organic Form" vs. Alcoa's Brilliant Kool (#2) Message-ID: The 1950s bequeathed to the Ages the Aluminum Christmas Tree. Radiant, each branch geodesically accurate, this artifact is as startling to the unprepared eye as is a Flying Saucer. A Poem that achieves such pristine artificiality, each of its verses starting and stopping with superhuman precision, all of its rimes, every foot dancing trippingly, a music box tinkling perfectly in its own eternal Christmas morning, would have to be judged as adhering to an imposed structure, its prosodic architecture being a means of conformation to the acme of ideal artifice. The "very idea" of such an imposed type descends from the pure world of matematikal forms articulated by Plato and Fuller. To the Beats of the 50s, the Alcoa Xmas Tree was a horrifying prospect against which they set the full measure of their imaginations and eroticized corporealities. This is not all I have to say on this topic, but all I have to say presently, however imperfectly. R i c h a r d D i l l o n From tad at opus40.org Sat Jan 8 01:23:19 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 01:23:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? Message-ID: <000a01c4f54a$8e3cf0c0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Joan Houlihan on Lyn Heijenian's "Best American Poetry": Initially I had qualms about taking on the editorship. My problem was simple and, going by what the editors of some of the previous volumes in this series have said in their own introductions, it seems to have vexed many of us. I don't believe in "bestness." But, to be fairer (to the reader), wouldn't it have been more ethical for her to turn down the job if that's her belief? It seems to me that if anything is a disqualifying factor for the job of editor of a Best of American Poetry anthology, not believing in the concept of "bestness" is it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 8 09:18:41 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:18:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? References: <000a01c4f54a$8e3cf0c0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00cf01c4f58c$f4ddce20$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Joan Houlihan on Lyn Heijenian's "Best American Poetry": Initially I had qualms about taking on the editorship. My problem was simple and, going by what the editors of some of the previous volumes in this series have said in their own introductions, it seems to have vexed many of us. I don't believe in "bestness." But, to be fairer (to the reader), wouldn't it have been more ethical for her to turn down the job if that's her belief? It seems to me that if anything is a disqualifying factor for the job of editor of a Best of American Poetry anthology, not believing in the concept of "bestness" is it. But what if one understands there to be two ethical problems: one of editing something with a name you can't believe in versus one of providing poets you consider good their first significant public recognition? In other words, would it be ethical to turn down a chance to do what you consider good for poetry even though you would be unethically accepting a post you're disqualified for? To put aside the absurdity of anyone's giving a job to someone so insane as not to believe in "bestness." --Bob G. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 8 09:58:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:58:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem by William Conelly References: <000a01c4f54a$8e3cf0c0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <00cf01c4f58c$f4ddce20$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00e401c4f592$7f645a50$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Here's a knownstream poem I liked enough to post at my blog. Just to show (again) I can like formal poems. Anything with a cat in it works for me. But Conelly has other good poems at http://www.stickspress.com/conellyc.html I found him at this site because I also have some poems there. --Bob G. False Summons Outside a woman calls my name and though it's night, and she's a stranger, I start up blinking just the same. Her voice is laced with hurt or danger. She skirts the darkened shrubs and lawn still calling, I deduce, her cat. I can lie back again and yawn. No woman wants me quite like that. William Conelly ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bestness? Joan Houlihan on Lyn Heijenian's "Best American Poetry": Initially I had qualms about taking on the editorship. My problem was simple and, going by what the editors of some of the previous volumes in this series have said in their own introductions, it seems to have vexed many of us. I don't believe in "bestness." But, to be fairer (to the reader), wouldn't it have been more ethical for her to turn down the job if that's her belief? It seems to me that if anything is a disqualifying factor for the job of editor of a Best of American Poetry anthology, not believing in the concept of "bestness" is it. But what if one understands there to be two ethical problems: one of editing something with a name you can't believe in versus one of providing poets you consider good their first significant public recognition? In other words, would it be ethical to turn down a chance to do what you consider good for poetry even though you would be unethically accepting a post you're disqualified for? To put aside the absurdity of anyone's giving a job to someone so insane as not to believe in "bestness." --Bob G. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jan 8 10:26:48 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 09:26:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem with a cat in it In-Reply-To: <00e401c4f592$7f645a50$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Here's one by Betsy Sholl that I've always liked. Great cat cameo. . . . Sex Ed Well-dressed, demure, jammed into those politely arranged desks, it's hard to be serious, but we are. No one even parts lips to acknowledge what used to drive us crazy in the back seats of cars, what kept us up half the night reliving the last slow dance, girl on her toes, guy bent at the knees to press in against her. The instructors speak precisely about the importance of our children knowing the facts, so surely none of us in our high heels and neck ties is going to admit how our first mistakes have suddenly blossomed so tender and lovely we've been forgiven a thousand times, a thousand times forgiven and repeated ourselves. But fingering the graffiti on this desk, I remember being braille to you, being read like a steamy novel, and how those lessons stayed with us, practical as driver's ed, those hours of simulation behind the wheel of a parked car. The truth is I don't regret having studied with you though I do feel inarticulate, like an athlete asked to speak in a room of kids, who has nothing to say except, "practice, practice." Once our daughter watched the cat in heat yowl and slither across the floor, and without looking up asked, would that happen to her. Sometimes it isn't shame that makes us speechless. It's not regret that makes me linger at the curb watching her toss back her yellow hair and yank open the heavy doors to school. --Betsy Sholl. *The Red Line*. U Pittsburgh. on 1/8/05 8:58 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: Here's a knownstream poem I liked enough to post at my blog. Just to show (again) I can like formal poems. Anything with a cat in it works for me. But Conelly has other good poems at http://www.stickspress.com/conellyc.html I found him at this site because I also have some poems there. --Bob G. False Summons Outside a woman calls my name and though it's night, and she's a stranger, I start up blinking just the same. Her voice is laced with hurt or danger. She skirts the darkened shrubs and lawn still calling, I deduce, her cat. I can lie back again and yawn. No woman wants me quite like that. William Conelly ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jan 8 10:41:25 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:41:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? References: <000a01c4f54a$8e3cf0c0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <00cf01c4f58c$f4ddce20$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001d01c4f598$8534ca40$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Then there are poets that Heijenian would consider good, if not best? How about better? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bestness? Joan Houlihan on Lyn Heijenian's "Best American Poetry": Initially I had qualms about taking on the editorship. My problem was simple and, going by what the editors of some of the previous volumes in this series have said in their own introductions, it seems to have vexed many of us. I don't believe in "bestness." But, to be fairer (to the reader), wouldn't it have been more ethical for her to turn down the job if that's her belief? It seems to me that if anything is a disqualifying factor for the job of editor of a Best of American Poetry anthology, not believing in the concept of "bestness" is it. But what if one understands there to be two ethical problems: one of editing something with a name you can't believe in versus one of providing poets you consider good their first significant public recognition? In other words, would it be ethical to turn down a chance to do what you consider good for poetry even though you would be unethically accepting a post you're disqualified for? To put aside the absurdity of anyone's giving a job to someone so insane as not to believe in "bestness." --Bob G. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jan 8 10:43:18 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:43:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem with a cat in it References: Message-ID: <002c01c4f598$c89be2f0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Poem with a cat in itI still want language to do something more magical than deliver the message. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem with a cat in it Here's one by Betsy Sholl that I've always liked. Great cat cameo. . . . Sex Ed Well-dressed, demure, jammed into those politely arranged desks, it's hard to be serious, but we are. No one even parts lips to acknowledge what used to drive us crazy in the back seats of cars, what kept us up half the night reliving the last slow dance, girl on her toes, guy bent at the knees to press in against her. The instructors speak precisely about the importance of our children knowing the facts, so surely none of us in our high heels and neck ties is going to admit how our first mistakes have suddenly blossomed so tender and lovely we've been forgiven a thousand times, a thousand times forgiven and repeated ourselves. But fingering the graffiti on this desk, I remember being braille to you, being read like a steamy novel, and how those lessons stayed with us, practical as driver's ed, those hours of simulation behind the wheel of a parked car. The truth is I don't regret having studied with you though I do feel inarticulate, like an athlete asked to speak in a room of kids, who has nothing to say except, "practice, practice." Once our daughter watched the cat in heat yowl and slither across the floor, and without looking up asked, would that happen to her. Sometimes it isn't shame that makes us speechless. It's not regret that makes me linger at the curb watching her toss back her yellow hair and yank open the heavy doors to school. --Betsy Sholl. *The Red Line*. U Pittsburgh. on 1/8/05 8:58 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: Here's a knownstream poem I liked enough to post at my blog. Just to show (again) I can like formal poems. Anything with a cat in it works for me. But Conelly has other good poems at http://www.stickspress.com/conellyc.html I found him at this site because I also have some poems there. --Bob G. False Summons Outside a woman calls my name and though it's night, and she's a stranger, I start up blinking just the same. Her voice is laced with hurt or danger. She skirts the darkened shrubs and lawn still calling, I deduce, her cat. I can lie back again and yawn. No woman wants me quite like that. William Conelly ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jan 8 11:00:55 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:00:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "You Don't Know Me" Message-ID: You Don't Know Me Sometimes you hear a xylophone deep in the forest and you know that things are just not right. Vichyssoise beneath a canopy with several unnamable beautiful peekaboos may have gotten me off to a less than promising start, so a chickadee gyrating in my ear and a catbird spilled the champagne and a dog waygone chainsawed some pleasure I left on the table for a tip, an itsy-bitsy gratuity. I got home on the back of a grackle, poky me. In the big chair I started whistling and singing a melody: It was the forest tune, about bugs and sunlight and snakes and mumbo jumbo. And now it is your turn to burn, the song said, but first you must travel to Cameroon unapprehended in the eye of a cold, dead hurricane. You're starting to annoy me, I said. I was trying to annoy you, the song said, to see if you were really listening. There's a hole in my head, I said, I was hoping you would help to fill. What do you take me for, skillet biscuits? Perhaps. But you are also the forest song which is long and deep and clear. I exist but I have no purpose, the song said, but I'll pour some cool water over you that you will not soon forget. --James Tate fr. *Memoir of the Hawk* [New York: Ecco/HarperCollins, 2001] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 8 11:13:06 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:13:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? References: <000a01c4f54a$8e3cf0c0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ><00cf01c4f58c$f4ddce20$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001d01c4f598$8534ca40$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <011b01c4f59d$041d82d0$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Then there are poets that Heijenian would consider good, if not best? How about better? Hey, don't ask me to defend her logic. I'm just saying what's ethical here may be a difficult question. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jan 8 11:20:26 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:20:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? In-Reply-To: <000a01c4f54a$8e3cf0c0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: I think that many, if not most, of the annual editors have pooh-poohed the idea that their year's poems were really the best. Think of the arrogance involved in making that claim. But the title's a marketing device, not a statement of fact. And one needn't be a dummy to read and benefit from the "X for Dummies" series. Let's not be so bloody literal. Hal "You are at the highest level. There are no folders above this one." --a Microsoft Nirvana message Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of The Old Mole Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 1:23 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? Joan Houlihan on Lyn Heijenian's "Best American Poetry": Initially I had qualms about taking on the editorship. My problem was simple and, going by what the editors of some of the previous volumes in this series have said in their own introductions, it seems to have vexed many of us. I don't believe in "bestness.? But, to be fairer (to the reader), wouldn't it have been more ethical for her to turn down the job if that's her belief? It seems to me that if anything is a disqualifying factor for the job of editor of a Best of American Poetry anthology, not believing in the concept of ?bestness? is it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 8 13:22:59 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:22:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? References: Message-ID: <017d01c4f5af$15877fa0$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I think that many, if not most, of the annual editors have pooh-poohed the idea that their year's poems were really the best. Think of the arrogance involved in making that claim. But the title's a marketing device, not a statement of fact. And one needn't be a dummy to read and benefit from the "X for Dummies" series. Let's not be so bloody literal. I say the "best" series should be ignored by anyone interested in poetry because it stinks--but that's just an anti-marketing device of mine. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Jan 8 13:24:10 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:24:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c4f54a$8e3cf0c0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <41DFDEFA.30365.BB4E32@localhost> On 8 Jan 2005 at 11:20, Halvard Johnson wrote: > I think that many, if not most, of the annual editors have pooh- > poohed the > idea that their year's poems were really the best. Think of the > arrogance > involved in making that claim. But the title's a marketing device, not > a statement of fact.< So you're saying it's a lie, not a statement of fact. Why should anyone patronize someone who is so willing to lie to them from the get-go? Why not boycott this book, then? Marcus From mandolin at mac.com Sat Jan 8 14:33:36 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:33:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30BB3603-61AC-11D9-94C2-000393C29586@mac.com> On Jan 7, 2005, at 2:25 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/7/2005 10:46:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, > mandolin at mac.com writes: > > Your paraphrase seems correct to me, Bob, but for Duncan, for > Levertov, and for many of the other poets who made this kind of > statement it clearly was a judgement and not merely a description. As > a description it simply wrong -- neither kind of poet is more or less > flowing with or imposing on Nature than the other kind of poet. > > James, I don't think it was a lie, either.? One shouldn't attribute to > malevolence what can be explained by ignorance. > Mike, well 'ignorance', too, is too strong a word for me. > Duncan and Levertov don't strike me as the ignorant kind. > Also, I'd like to make the point that a similar and no less > flawed argument has been made by many fanatical formalists. > Meter is natural because it's related to the heartbeat, > or to?bi-pedal locomotion, or copulation, or some such > nonsense. Then there was that book the The Neural Lyre > (or was Neural Liar)...see Turner & Poppel: > "Modernist esthetic theory may be ignoring the following possibility: > that our species' special adaptation may in fact be to expect more > order and meaning in the world than it can deliver; and that those > expectations may constitute, paradoxically, an excellent survival > strategy. We are strongly motivated to restore the equilibrium between > reality and our expectations by altering reality so as to validate our > models of it-to "make the world a better place," as we put it. The > modernist attack on beauty in art would therefore constitute an attack > on our very nature itself; and the modernist and post-modernist > criticism of moral and philosophical idealism likewise flies in the > face of the apparent facts about human neural organization. What > William James called "the will to believe" is written in our genes; > teleology is the best policy; and paradoxically, it is utopian to > attempt to do battle against our natural idealism. Much more sensible > to adjust reality to the ideal." > ? > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ But James, they weren't writing about the naturalness of sonnets or iambic pentameter, but rather about the ubiquity in human cultures of the metrical use of language in certain culturally-marked circumstances and about the possible neural bases for that ubiquity and for the effect of metrical language on listeners. They were surely right about the first part, and what neurological research has been done supports, in a general way, their suggestions for the second part. But showing that one kind of language-use is "natural" doesn't mean that other kinds are "unnatural." Even if they were entirely correct -- and their last few paragraphs seem to me to be as self-serving and ungrounded as the Duncan quote -- it wouldn't mean that metrical poetry was somehow more natural than free verse (or even L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry), only that it would be difficult for a listener to experience the latter in the same way as the former. Mike S BTW, the entire essay is online at http://www.cosmoetica.com/B22-FT2.htm I traveled across the country in 1974 with Fred Turner, the Canadian poet Robert Allen, and a Leninist philosopher named Michael Farren. It was an interesting trip -- after a week or so Rob and I tried to make sure Fred and Mike weren't in the front or back seat together -- and at the time Fred was still writing free verse. From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 8 16:39:18 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:39:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? Message-ID: <79.3c640e57.2f11ad06@aol.com> In a message dated 1/8/2005 1:24:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > Joan Houlihan on Lyn Heijenian's "Best American Poetry": > > > >> Initially I had qualms about taking on the editorship. My problem was >> simple and, going by what the editors of some of the previous volumes in this >> series have said in their own introductions, it seems to have vexed many of >> us. I don't believe in "bestness.? >> >> > > But, to be fairer (to the reader), wouldn't it have been more ethical for > her to turn down the job if that's her belief? It seems to me that if anything > is a disqualifying factor for the job of editor of a Best of American Poetry > anthology, not believing in the concept of ?bestness? is it. > Houlihan can really be obtuse, can't she? Have any of these annual anthologies been the "Best of..."? Have any of the editors believed they'd found and selected the very best. Almost all of the guest editors (as Hejinian alludes) have balked at that lofty title. Best is such an absolutist and time-bound term. The title is a "marketing" device...the Best Detergent, The Best Car of 2004 Model Year...etc. At best, shall we say, an anthology like this can be just a scattershot survey of what some notables and up&comers are up to poetrywise, with a little personal bias towards the editor's friends and aesthetic coterie. I was pleasantly surprised by Hejinian's contents page. I think she risked a little of avant-garde rep by taking both Bernstein & Stern, Dove & Dinh, Perelman & Pinsky, Howe & Hollander, etc. However, Hollander notwithstanding, I don't think she gave many nods to (traditional) formalsts. Well, there's always a new guest editor and another year. >From BAP2004, here's Carl Rakosi apropos: In the First Circle of Limbo Liberate me, Muse, from this encirclement of categories. Your themes are plein-air endless sad. Put some wit and compassion into this pen! -- Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 8 16:42:47 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:42:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? Message-ID: <197.35c7fba7.2f11add7@aol.com> In a message dated 1/8/2005 11:28:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > I think that many, if not most, of the annual editors have pooh-poohed the > idea that their year's poems were really the best. Think of the arrogance > involved in making that claim. But the title's a marketing device, not a > statement of fact. And one needn't be a dummy to read and > benefit from the "X for Dummies" series. > > One should read all the way to the last post in a thread before starting to respond. Sorry to repeat some of what Hal's pointed out already. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 8 17:46:13 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:46:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? References: <79.3c640e57.2f11ad06@aol.com> Message-ID: <020601c4f5d3$dce4c020$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I was pleasantly surprised by Hejinian's contents page. I think she risked a little of avant-garde rep by taking both Bernstein & Stern, Dove & Dinh, Perelman & Pinsky, Howe & Hollander, etc. However, Hollander notwithstanding, I don't think she gave many nods to (traditional) formalsts. Well, there's always a new guest editor and another year. Basically, she proved that old experimentalists win acceptance from stasguards only when they're no longer experimentalists: hence, she chose poems by her now no-longer avant garde buddies and by non-experimentalists, but not from any contemporary exprimental poets. It's a way of putting distance between yourself and those who will eventually replace you, although I doubt that was what she intended consciously. I think she is just too obtuse to recognize the experimentalists after her. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 8 17:53:26 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:53:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? References: <79.3c640e57.2f11ad06@aol.com> <020601c4f5d3$dce4c020$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <028101c4f5d4$dd6a9c80$dda93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Ah Bob, you have a pocketful of (rye? no) of vipered answers I could or could not be with you, I am talking of the timing of your criticism, just like a box of crayola, they are all there once you start drawing, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bestness? I was pleasantly surprised by Hejinian's contents page. I think she risked a little of avant-garde rep by taking both Bernstein & Stern, Dove & Dinh, Perelman & Pinsky, Howe & Hollander, etc. However, Hollander notwithstanding, I don't think she gave many nods to (traditional) formalsts. Well, there's always a new guest editor and another year. Basically, she proved that old experimentalists win acceptance from stasguards only when they're no longer experimentalists: hence, she chose poems by her now no-longer avant garde buddies and by non-experimentalists, but not from any contemporary exprimental poets. It's a way of putting distance between yourself and those who will eventually replace you, although I doubt that was what she intended consciously. I think she is just too obtuse to recognize the experimentalists after her. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jan 8 18:21:56 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:21:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem with a cat in it References: Message-ID: <00a801c4f5d8$dad8aa30$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Poem with a cat in itBy Donald Finkel. 1. A man and a cat keep a room his mark is on the door the cat's is on the carpet the bed the radiator the cat leaps to the table strolls across the table the man is reading or staring out the window his thoughtless hand falls on the cat asleep on the sill his fingers drift through dreaming fur it blinks stretches it's time to go out 2. The man is setting the pace steadily gravely it is his part of the business gazing neither left not right where the cat looks after the shados sees to the ashes discreetly neither too near nor too far keeping the distance 3 Rounding the final corner they part in sight of the door without ceremony without valediction the man goes in sits down at the table smooths with his dreaming fingers the evening's news hours later groans to his feet opens the door and thrusting against his leg as if after all two bodies might inhabit the same space at the same time the cat comes in Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem with a cat in it Here's one by Betsy Sholl that I've always liked. Great cat cameo. . . . Sex Ed Well-dressed, demure, jammed into those politely arranged desks, it's hard to be serious, but we are. No one even parts lips to acknowledge what used to drive us crazy in the back seats of cars, what kept us up half the night reliving the last slow dance, girl on her toes, guy bent at the knees to press in against her. The instructors speak precisely about the importance of our children knowing the facts, so surely none of us in our high heels and neck ties is going to admit how our first mistakes have suddenly blossomed so tender and lovely we've been forgiven a thousand times, a thousand times forgiven and repeated ourselves. But fingering the graffiti on this desk, I remember being braille to you, being read like a steamy novel, and how those lessons stayed with us, practical as driver's ed, those hours of simulation behind the wheel of a parked car. The truth is I don't regret having studied with you though I do feel inarticulate, like an athlete asked to speak in a room of kids, who has nothing to say except, "practice, practice." Once our daughter watched the cat in heat yowl and slither across the floor, and without looking up asked, would that happen to her. Sometimes it isn't shame that makes us speechless. It's not regret that makes me linger at the curb watching her toss back her yellow hair and yank open the heavy doors to school. --Betsy Sholl. *The Red Line*. U Pittsburgh. on 1/8/05 8:58 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: Here's a knownstream poem I liked enough to post at my blog. Just to show (again) I can like formal poems. Anything with a cat in it works for me. But Conelly has other good poems at http://www.stickspress.com/conellyc.html I found him at this site because I also have some poems there. --Bob G. False Summons Outside a woman calls my name and though it's night, and she's a stranger, I start up blinking just the same. Her voice is laced with hurt or danger. She skirts the darkened shrubs and lawn still calling, I deduce, her cat. I can lie back again and yawn. No woman wants me quite like that. William Conelly ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 8 18:27:19 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:27:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] nice site sighting Message-ID: <78.6a0828cb.2f11c657@aol.com> http://www.e-poets.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 8 18:34:45 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:34:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] got god? Message-ID: <1a5.2e5b1f6e.2f11c815@aol.com> anthology on God (or "god"): call for poetry A call for submissions for a new anthology was announced in November. The anthology is themed around organized religion and its effect on politics, social, family, and personal life. The publishers want poetry only, and no more than 4 pieces per author, with poems preferably running 30 lines or less. Submission deadline is 4 February 2005. The anthology will be published by A Gathering of the Tribes, New York, who have published Bret Axel, Stacy Ann Chin, and other nationally-touring performance poets. Send work to: Tribes Att: God Po. Box 20693 Tompkins Square station New York, NY 10009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 8 18:41:57 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:41:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Saudi Poet Makes History Message-ID: <6d.3c341873.2f11c9c5@aol.com> http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=57241&d=8&m=1&y=2005 Saudi Poet Makes History Ghada Aboud, Arab News Saudi writer and poet Nimah Ismail Nawwab interacts with book lovers at Jarir Bookstore on Thursday night. (AN photo by Ahmed Al-Marwanie). JEDDAH, 8 January 2005 - It looked like a scene from the Western literary world when book lovers made a beeline to get the copies of a newly published book signed by its author. The groundbreaking event took place at Jarir Bookstore on Sary Street here on Thursday night when Saudi writer and poet Nimah Ismail Nawwab presented herself to sign her book of poetry entitled "The Unfurling". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 8 18:52:50 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:52:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? References: <79.3c640e57.2f11ad06@aol.com><020601c4f5d3$dce4c020$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <028101c4f5d4$dd6a9c80$dda93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <022c01c4f5dd$29ec0e10$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Ah Bob, you have a pocketful of (rye? no) of vipered answers I could or could not be with you, I am talking of the timing of your criticism, just like a box of crayola, they are all there once you start drawing, It depends on the subject, Anny. When it comes to the stasguards, I'm very mean-spirited. Sort of like an executive secretary getting $9 an hour while running a company for her boss, who gets $9 a second. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 8 19:23:22 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:23:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? References: <79.3c640e57.2f11ad06@aol.com><020601c4f5d3$dce4c020$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><028101c4f5d4$dd6a9c80$dda93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> <022c01c4f5dd$29ec0e10$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <026901c4f5e1$6ddc5720$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Also, and I'm serious: someone needs to remind stasguards that not everyone respects them. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 8 19:30:21 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:30:21 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? References: <79.3c640e57.2f11ad06@aol.com><020601c4f5d3$dce4c020$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><028101c4f5d4$dd6a9c80$dda93852@yourpk9x5fuc06><022c01c4f5dd$29ec0e10$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <026901c4f5e1$6ddc5720$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <02f901c4f5e2$6725a1b0$dda93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> It might be that Leopardi in me, but I am always very diffident when someone praises me, hills are hills, they go up and then roll down. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bestness? Also, and I'm serious: someone needs to remind stasguards that not everyone respects them. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 8 19:57:46 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:57:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bestness? References: <79.3c640e57.2f11ad06@aol.com><020601c4f5d3$dce4c020$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><028101c4f5d4$dd6a9c80$dda93852@yourpk9x5fuc06><022c01c4f5dd$29ec0e10$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><026901c4f5e1$6ddc5720$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <02f901c4f5e2$6725a1b0$dda93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <028d01c4f5e6$3c57b280$93b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> It might be that Leopardi in me, but I am always very diffident when someone praises me, hills are hills, they go up and then roll down. Anny Ballardini Especially after observing people you don't have a high opinion of getting fulsomely praised. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jan 9 11:03:33 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:03:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter Message-ID: <012601c4f664$c5367720$0de83652@yourpk9x5fuc06> Winter When icicles hang by the wall And Dick the shepherd blows his nail And Tom bears logs into the hall, And milk comes frozen home in pail, When Blood is nipped and ways be foul, Then nightly sings the staring owl, Tu-who; Tu-whit, tu-who: a merry note, While greasy Joan doth keel the pot. When all aloud the wind doth blow, And coughing drowns the parson's saw, And birds sit brooding in the snow, And Marian's nose looks red and raw When roasted crabs hiss in the bowl, Then nightly sings the staring owl, Tu-who; Tu-whit, tu-who: a merry note, While greasy Joan doth keel the pot. William Shakespeare >From PoemHunter Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ttrigilio at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 9 15:37:36 2005 From: ttrigilio at sbcglobal.net (Tony Trigilio) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:37:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for (bout-rimes) Poems: COURT GREEN Message-ID: <41E19610.8020409@sbcglobal.net> For the Spring 2006 issue of the new poetry annual COURT GREEN, we are accepting submissions of bouts-rim?s ("rhymed ends"). As Ron Padgett says in his Handbook of Poetic Forms, "A bouts-rim?s poem is created by one person's making up a list of rhymed words and giving it to another person, who in turn writes the lines that end with those rhymes, in the same order in which they were given." Various sources attribute the invention of bouts-rim?s to the French poet Dulot in the seventeenth century. In 1701, Etienne Mallemans wrote a collection of sonnets whose rhymes were chosen by the Duchess of Maine. In the mid-1800s, brothers William Michael Rossetti and Dante Gabriel Rossetti experimented with bouts-rim?s. In 1864, Alexandre Dumas curated a volume of bouts-rim?s composed by 350 French poets -- all with the same rhymes. In the spirit of Dumas's invitation, we are accepting submissions of bouts-rim?s sonnets written with the following end-rhymes (in the following order): June stress moon obsess snake moot cake beaut Garbo play hobo day rhinestone cologne All themes and subjects are welcome as long as your sonnet uses these end-rhymes in the order they appear above. Submissions of bouts-rim?s sonnets for consideration in the dossier can be sent through May 1, 2005: Tony Trigilio, COURT GREEN, English Department, Columbia College Chicago, 600 South Michigan Avenue, Chicago, IL, 60605. Email submissions are not accepted. COURT GREEN is a new, nationally distributed journal co-edited by Arielle Greenberg, Tony Trigilio, and David Trinidad. Each issue will have a Dossier on a special topic or theme. The first issue is out now and features a Dossier on poetry on film, and includes poems by Ann Lauterbach, Michael Burkard, Elizabeth Willis, Maxine Kumin, Mary Szybist, Albert Goldbarth, Ron Padgett, Dodie Bellamy, Wayne Koestenbaum and others. Issue #2 (out by April 2005) features a Dossier on Lorine Niedecker. Submissions of poetry for the regular section of the magazine are welcome, in addition to Dossier submissions. If you would like to submit poems for the regular section, our reading period is February 1-May 1 of each year, to the same address above. If questions come up, email me at ttrigilio at colum.edu. Thanks- Best, Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier at localnet.com Mon Jan 10 14:50:07 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:50:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] GALWAY KINNELL POEM ABOUT LAVA Message-ID: <005301c4f74d$96dbdbb0$eb0c9942@Helen> Does anyone have a copy of this poem to post? I heard him read it some years back and thought I might try students reading it (glutton for self punishement). Thanks. Helen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Jan 10 08:20:43 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:20:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Robert Duncan's *The Day Book* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I address the point Duncan raises in this excerpt at great length in my essay "The Shape of Poetry," which can be found in various print and online sources. Paul Lake On 1/6/05 6:32 PM, "Michael Snider" wrote: > > On Jan 6, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> >> "We know that an idea, a novel or a poem, may begin >> at some point or germ, grow, finding its being and necessary >> form, rhythm and life as the germ evolves in relation to its >> environment of language and experience in life. This is an art >> that rises from a deep belief in the universe as a medium of >> forms, in man's quest as a spiritual evolution. >> "In contrast, conventional art, with its conviction that >> form means adherence to an imposed order where metric >> and rime are means of conformation, rises from a belief that >> man by artifice must win his forms (as models, reproductions >> or paradigms) against his nature, areas of control in a universe >> that is a matter of chaos." >> >> --Robert Duncan >> >> fr. *The Day Book* as excerpted in *The Gist of Origin: >> 1951-1971* [New York: Grossman/Viking Press, 1975] >> >> > > > Hal, that's just ignorant, self-serving poppycock on Duncan's part. At > least I hope it's ignorant -- of the way in which metrical poets work, > of the fact that human artifice IS human nature, of the fact that his > poetry is no less artificial (though it's certainly lesser) than that > of Richard Wilbur -- otherwise it's a sef-serving lie. > > MIke S. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jan 10 15:59:45 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:59:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request References: Message-ID: <002001c4f757$50fb7a10$29a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi to all, if there is someone online now, could you please tell me if the following visual poems are bigger than their screens or if they fit it right? Geof Huth, the Author says he sees them too big, while they fit exactly on mine even with margins, and well centered. Thank you very much, here are the links: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=935 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=936 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=937 You can b/c me if you wish, anny.ballardini at tin.it Anny From Sonia_Roman at newyorklife.com Mon Jan 10 16:03:04 2005 From: Sonia_Roman at newyorklife.com (sonia roman) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:03:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request Message-ID: They are bigger than the screen. Sonia Roman Administrative Associate Office of Governmental Affairs Tel. 212-576-5791 Fax. 212-576-4473 "Anny Ballardini" Views" Sent by: cc: new-poetry-bounces at wiz. Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request cath.vt.edu 01/10/2005 03:59 PM Please respond to "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Hi to all, if there is someone online now, could you please tell me if the following visual poems are bigger than their screens or if they fit it right? Geof Huth, the Author says he sees them too big, while they fit exactly on mine even with margins, and well centered. Thank you very much, here are the links: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=935 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=936 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=937 You can b/c me if you wish, anny.ballardini at tin.it Anny _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Jan 10 16:12:17 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:12:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request In-Reply-To: <002001c4f757$50fb7a10$29a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: Hi, Anny-- I had to use the horizontal slider to bring the first two fully onto my screen. All needed use of the vertical slide bar. Hal, responding to your kindness { -----Original Message----- { From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu { [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini { Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:00 PM { To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views { Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request { { { Hi to all, { { if there is someone online now, could you please tell me if the following { visual poems are bigger than their screens or if they fit it right? Geof { Huth, the Author says he sees them too big, while they fit exactly on mine { even with margins, and well centered. { { Thank you very much, here are the links: { { http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=935 { http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=936 { http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=937 { { You can b/c me if you wish, { anny.ballardini at tin.it { { Anny { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jan 10 16:38:31 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:38:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request References: Message-ID: <009a01c4f75c$baebbd40$29a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Thank you very much. I received five answers, three said the pics were all right, two that they were too big. I think I will have to reduce them, I liked the idea that they were so well visible on my screen, I am using a laptop. Again, thank you for your trouble. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:12 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] a kind request > Hi, Anny-- > > I had to use the horizontal slider to bring the first two fully > onto my screen. All needed use of the vertical slide bar. > > Hal, responding to your kindness > > { -----Original Message----- > { From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini > { Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:00 PM > { To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > { Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request > { > { > { Hi to all, > { > { if there is someone online now, could you please tell me if the following > { visual poems are bigger than their screens or if they fit it right? Geof > { Huth, the Author says he sees them too big, while they fit exactly on mine > { even with margins, and well centered. > { > { Thank you very much, here are the links: > { > { http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=935 > { http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=936 > { http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=937 > { > { You can b/c me if you wish, > { anny.ballardini at tin.it > { > { Anny > { > { > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From lesrho at fullnet.net Mon Jan 10 17:18:42 2005 From: lesrho at fullnet.net (LesRho) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:18:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why should we send in Poetry to this site? Message-ID: <002101c4f762$6db4fd10$9c0be2d8@retiredud69srz> What happens to new poetry submissions that don't show up here on this site? Are they archived or just shreded if they don't meet publishing criteria.? Les Easley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Jan 10 18:16:58 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:16:58 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request In-Reply-To: <002001c4f757$50fb7a10$29a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: They fit on mine, but I guess you'd need your display set to 1280x1024 or something like that to get it all in at once. :P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Anny > Ballardini > Sent: 10 January 2005 21:00 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request > > Hi to all, > > if there is someone online now, could you please tell me if > the following visual poems are bigger than their screens or > if they fit it right? Geof Huth, the Author says he sees them > too big, while they fit exactly on mine even with margins, > and well centered. > > Thank you very much, here are the links: > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=935 > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=936 > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=937 > > You can b/c me if you wish, > anny.ballardini at tin.it > > Anny > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 10 19:22:15 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:22:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Why should we send in Poetry to this site? Message-ID: <54.3b61c96c.2f147637@aol.com> In a message dated 1/10/2005 5:19:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, lesrho at fullnet.net writes: > What happens to new poetry submissions that don't show up here on this > site? Are they > archived or just shreded if they don't meet publishing criteria.? Les > Easley > Les, members are free to post poems when the spirit moves them to do so. We have a guideline of 'one poem per member per month'. But poems related (however loosely) to a thread don't count. And no one is really keeping score. (see below) J Finnegan The Beautiful Words More than 42,000 people from 102 non-English-speaking countries were invited to select their seventy favorite words. When the results were tabulated, after "Mother," the most beautiful words in English: 2) Passion 3) Smile 4) Love 5) Eternity 6) Fantastic 7) Destiny 8) Freedom 9) Liberty 10) Tranquility Mother, now I understand my problem. You warned me against becoming a poet, but I didn't listen I had the freedom to choose whatever odd destiny I might wander into. And I have to smile when I see how it turned out, an eternity of sorrow awaits those of us who use love as an excuse. Who think tranquility will settle easily over a fierce passion, or willingly believe that any call to liberty, equality, fraternity, won't cut your head off. But don't get me wrong, things are fantastic. By heart now I know the beautiful words, so I've got it made. Your son, the poet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 10 19:30:43 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:30:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a kind request References: <009a01c4f75c$baebbd40$29a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <01b401c4f774$c9dbf8c0$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> One more answer: I found it too big, but clicked F11 to get rid of the toolbar on top and then it fit. To retrieve the toolbar, you just click F11 again. From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 19:41:03 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:41:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Why should we send in Poetry to this site? In-Reply-To: <002101c4f762$6db4fd10$9c0be2d8@retiredud69srz> Message-ID: <20050111004103.28323.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com> --- LesRho wrote: > What happens to new poetry submissions that don't > show up here on this site? Are they > archived or just shreded if they don't meet > publishing criteria.? Les Easley> I think that Bob Grumman eats them, right Bob? ;-) Jeff ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Mon Jan 10 20:30:18 2005 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:30:18 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for (bout-rimes) Poems: COURT GREEN In-Reply-To: <41E19610.8020409@sbcglobal.net> References: <41E19610.8020409@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1105407018.41e32c2aa6593@webmail.sfsu.edu> I'm certain that this reached me by accident, but I'd most firmly ask that you never send me a piece of mail again. Maxine Chernoff Quoting Tony Trigilio : > For the Spring 2006 issue of the new poetry annual COURT GREEN, we are > accepting submissions of bouts-rim?s ("rhymed ends"). > > As Ron Padgett says in his Handbook of Poetic Forms, "A bouts-rim?s poem > is created by one person's making up a list of rhymed words and giving > it to another person, who in turn writes the lines that end with those > rhymes, in the same order in which they were given." Various sources > attribute the invention of bouts-rim?s to the French poet Dulot in the > seventeenth century. In 1701, Etienne Mallemans wrote a collection of > sonnets whose rhymes were chosen by the Duchess of Maine. In the > mid-1800s, brothers William Michael Rossetti and Dante Gabriel Rossetti > experimented with bouts-rim?s. In 1864, Alexandre Dumas curated a > volume of bouts-rim?s composed by 350 French poets -- all with the same > rhymes. > > In the spirit of Dumas's invitation, we are accepting submissions of > bouts-rim?s sonnets written with the following end-rhymes (in the > following order): > > June > stress > moon > obsess > snake > moot > cake > beaut > Garbo > play > hobo > day > rhinestone > cologne > > All themes and subjects are welcome as long as your sonnet uses these > end-rhymes in the order they appear above. > > Submissions of bouts-rim?s sonnets for consideration in the dossier can > be sent through May 1, 2005: Tony Trigilio, COURT GREEN, English > Department, Columbia College Chicago, 600 South Michigan Avenue, > Chicago, IL, 60605. Email submissions are not accepted. > > COURT GREEN is a new, nationally distributed journal co-edited by > Arielle Greenberg, Tony Trigilio, and David Trinidad. Each issue will > have a Dossier on a special topic or theme. The first issue is out now > and features a Dossier on poetry on film, and includes poems by Ann > Lauterbach, Michael Burkard, Elizabeth Willis, Maxine Kumin, Mary > Szybist, Albert Goldbarth, Ron Padgett, Dodie Bellamy, Wayne Koestenbaum > and others. Issue #2 (out by April 2005) features a Dossier on Lorine > Niedecker. > > Submissions of poetry for the regular section of the magazine are > welcome, in addition to Dossier submissions. If you would like to > submit poems for the regular section, our reading period is February > 1-May 1 of each year, to the same address above. > > If questions come up, email me at ttrigilio at colum.edu. Thanks- > > Best, > Tony > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 10 21:47:24 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:47:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why should we send in Poetry to this site? References: <20050111004103.28323.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <021e01c4f787$e1aea020$54b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > --- LesRho wrote: > >> What happens to new poetry submissions that don't >> show up here on this site? Are they >> archived or just shreded if they don't meet >> publishing criteria.? Les Easley> > > I think that Bob Grumman eats them, right Bob? > > ;-) C'mon, Jeff--I only eat them if they DO meet publishing criteria. Seriously, Les--New-Poetry is a poetry discussion group. If you post a poem to it, it appears just like this post. I believe the only rule is that you should try not to post more than one poem of your own per month. That's to keep anyone from swamping the group with poems. Usually someone will comment on another poster's poem, but sometimes not. And sometimes the comment will be negative. I ofter comment negatively on the poems by poets of high repute that people in the group post besides their own, but I rarely am unkind to those of group members, unless presented to make some point in an argument I disagree with or the like. --Bob G. From kpaul at mallasch.com Tue Jan 11 21:31:37 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:31:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... In-Reply-To: <002e01c4f008$ea5b19a0$27af3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> References: <002e01c4f008$ea5b19a0$27af3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net> this could be the basis for an interesting class assignment, no? -kpaul Twinkle Twinkle Little Star Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific Fain I would fathom thy nature specific Loftily poised in the ether capacious Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific Fain I would fathom thy nature specific ---------- Baa Baa Black Sheep Blat blat, Onyx ruminant Do you possess any cylindrical fibers of keratin? Affirmative, affirmative replete ternary satchels a satchel for my chatelain a satchel for my abecedarian and a satchel for the bantam homunculus who abides down the public passageway. ---------- Hey Diddle Diddle Behold the small, carnivorous, domesticated feline and the vielle, The bovine ruminant traversed over earth's natural satellite in a saltatorial manner; Upon beholding the phenomena, the diminutive carnivorous domesticated canine cachinnated. And the shallow concave container absquatulated with the small eating utensil. ---------- Little Boy Blue Bantam cyan scion, expel air through your brass instrument, The domesticated ruminant's in the lea, the bovine ruminant's in the tall annual cereal grass. Whence is the swain? Under the hayrick, dormantly abiding. Will you rouse the swain? Verily nay. If I arouse him, he will definitely ululate. ---------- Little Miss Muffet A diminutive signorina, reposed on a short cluster of elongated strands of grass, While partaking of her esculent coagulated and uncoagulated lacteal fluids; An arthropod arrived, who reposed adjacently, Resulting in her affrightment and abscondment. ---------- Jack and Jill A heterogeneous doublet proceeded towards the apex of a natural geologic protuberance, The purpose of their expedition being the procurement of a sample of fluid hydride of oxygen in a large vessel, The male member of the team precipitously descended, Sustaining severe damage to the upper cranial portion of his anatomical structure, Subsequently the second member of the team performed a self-rotational translation oriented in the same direction taken by the first team member. http://www.obfuscations.com/nursery_rhymes_for_the_erudite.htm From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jan 12 02:12:49 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:12:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... References: <002e01c4f008$ea5b19a0$27af3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> <20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <002a01c4f876$203f3860$252bb750@yourpk9x5fuc06> Our municipality (Bozen, Italy) organized something similar. Students, from the elementary school to university, had to re-write Cinderella. I appeared on the panel of judges (three for the Italian language and three for the German) to sort out these writings. There was a lot of rubbish as you can easily imagine, and the best ones were written by 8-9 year-old kids who mixed all the characters of the fairy tales (some were just incredible!). Something like a month ago there was the big closing meeting. Award: the publication of the selected stories in a bilingual booklet, a bouquet of flowers for the winners, and cake and soft drinks for all. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "kpaul mallasch" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:31 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... > this could be the basis for an interesting class assignment, no? > > -kpaul > > Twinkle Twinkle Little Star > > Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific > Fain I would fathom thy nature specific > Loftily poised in the ether capacious > Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous > Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific > Fain I would fathom thy nature specific > > ---------- > > Baa Baa Black Sheep > > Blat blat, > Onyx ruminant > Do you possess any cylindrical fibers of keratin? > > Affirmative, affirmative > replete ternary satchels > > a satchel for my chatelain > a satchel for my abecedarian > and a satchel for the bantam homunculus > who abides down the public passageway. > > ---------- > > > Hey Diddle Diddle > > Behold the small, carnivorous, domesticated feline and the vielle, > The bovine ruminant traversed over earth's natural satellite in a > saltatorial manner; > Upon beholding the phenomena, the diminutive carnivorous domesticated > canine cachinnated. > And the shallow concave container absquatulated with the small eating > utensil. > > ---------- > > Little Boy Blue > > Bantam cyan scion, expel air through your brass instrument, > The domesticated ruminant's in the lea, the bovine ruminant's in the tall > annual cereal grass. > Whence is the swain? > Under the hayrick, dormantly abiding. > Will you rouse the swain? Verily nay. > If I arouse him, he will definitely ululate. > > ---------- > > > Little Miss Muffet > > A diminutive signorina, reposed on a short cluster of elongated strands of > grass, > While partaking of her esculent coagulated and uncoagulated lacteal > fluids; > An arthropod arrived, who reposed adjacently, > Resulting in her affrightment and abscondment. > > ---------- > > > > Jack and Jill > > A heterogeneous doublet proceeded towards the apex of a natural geologic > protuberance, > The purpose of their expedition being the procurement of a sample of fluid > hydride of oxygen in a large vessel, > The male member of the team precipitously descended, > Sustaining severe damage to the upper cranial portion of his anatomical > structure, > Subsequently the second member of the team performed a self-rotational > translation oriented in the same direction taken by the first team member. > > http://www.obfuscations.com/nursery_rhymes_for_the_erudite.htm > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 12 08:42:09 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:42:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... In-Reply-To: <20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net> References: <002e01c4f008$ea5b19a0$27af3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> <20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <307185.1105537329941.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 09:32PM, kpaul mallasch wrote: >this could be the basis for an interesting class assignment, no? > >-kpaul > >Twinkle Twinkle Little Star > >Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific >Fain I would fathom thy nature specific >Loftily poised in the ether capacious >Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous >Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific >Fain I would fathom thy nature specific > >---------- > >Baa Baa Black Sheep > >Blat blat, >Onyx ruminant >Do you possess any cylindrical fibers of keratin? > >Affirmative, affirmative >replete ternary satchels > >a satchel for my chatelain >a satchel for my abecedarian >and a satchel for the bantam homunculus >who abides down the public passageway. > >---------- > > >Hey Diddle Diddle > >Behold the small, carnivorous, domesticated feline and the vielle, >The bovine ruminant traversed over earth's natural satellite in a >saltatorial manner; >Upon beholding the phenomena, the diminutive carnivorous domesticated >canine cachinnated. >And the shallow concave container absquatulated with the small eating >utensil. > >---------- > >Little Boy Blue > >Bantam cyan scion, expel air through your brass instrument, >The domesticated ruminant's in the lea, the bovine ruminant's in the tall >annual cereal grass. >Whence is the swain? >Under the hayrick, dormantly abiding. >Will you rouse the swain? Verily nay. >If I arouse him, he will definitely ululate. > >---------- > > >Little Miss Muffet > >A diminutive signorina, reposed on a short cluster of elongated strands of >grass, >While partaking of her esculent coagulated and uncoagulated lacteal >fluids; >An arthropod arrived, who reposed adjacently, >Resulting in her affrightment and abscondment. > >---------- > > > >Jack and Jill > >A heterogeneous doublet proceeded towards the apex of a natural geologic >protuberance, >The purpose of their expedition being the procurement of a sample of fluid >hydride of oxygen in a large vessel, >The male member of the team precipitously descended, >Sustaining severe damage to the upper cranial portion of his anatomical >structure, >Subsequently the second member of the team performed a self-rotational >translation oriented in the same direction taken by the first team member. > >http://www.obfuscations.com/nursery_rhymes_for_the_erudite.htm > Fun stuff, kpaul. Do you know Wendy Cope's nursery rhymes? Here's one "as it might have been written by William Wordsworth" The skylark and the jay sang loud and long, The sun was calm and bright, the air was sweet, When all at once I heard above the throng Of jocund birds a single plaintive bleat. And, turning, saw, as one sees in a dream, It was a Sheep had broke the moorland peace With his sad cry, a creature who did seem The blackest that ever wore a fleece. I walked towards him on the stony track And, pausing for a while between two crags, I asked him, "Have you wool upon your back?" Thus he bespake, "Enough to fill three bags." Most courteously, in measured tonesd, he to;d WHo would receive each bag and where they dwelt; And oft, now years have passed and I am old, I recollect with joy that inky pelt. At this site ( http://www.arlindo-correia.com/050900.html ) there's her version of Hickory Dickory Dock as if by T. S. Eliot, as well as The Waste Land Limericks and several others of her poems. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From ttrigilio at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 12 09:19:09 2005 From: ttrigilio at sbcglobal.net (Tony Trigilio) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:19:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Clarification, COURT GREEN Email Message-ID: <41E531DD.9060503@sbcglobal.net> Dear Fellow New-Poetry Listserv Members, A couple days ago, I posted a call for poems for the magazine COURT GREEN. I received my digest version of the list yesterday, and saw Maxine Chernoff's posting asking that I not email her anymore. I'm writing to emphasize that I sent my original posting to the listserv (new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu), not to Maxine personally. It was then forwarded to all list-members by the list program itself -- as is the case with all mailing lists of this sort. When I post messages here in the future, I imagine Maxine will get the postings, too, as long as she remains a list member -- and the same goes for any other lists we might both subscribe to. This situation cannot be helped, as it is the nature of a listserv to mail postings to the community of subscribers. Sorry to trouble you all with this. I only responded to the list as a whole because Maxine's response to me personally was sent to the list as a whole. Best, Tony Trigilio Columbia College Chicago ------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:30:18 -0800 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Call for (bout-rimes) Poems: COURT GREEN To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <1105407018.41e32c2aa6593 at webmail.sfsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm certain that this reached me by accident, but I'd most firmly ask that you never send me a piece of mail again. Maxine Chernoff Quoting Tony Trigilio : >> For the Spring 2006 issue of the new poetry annual COURT GREEN, we are >> accepting submissions of bouts-rim?s ("rhymed ends"). >> >> As Ron Padgett says in his Handbook of Poetic Forms, "A bouts-rim?s poem >> is created by one person's making up a list of rhymed words and giving >> it to another person, who in turn writes the lines that end with those >> rhymes, in the same order in which they were given." Various sources >> attribute the invention of bouts-rim?s to the French poet Dulot in the >> seventeenth century. In 1701, Etienne Mallemans wrote a collection of >> sonnets whose rhymes were chosen by the Duchess of Maine. In the >> mid-1800s, brothers William Michael Rossetti and Dante Gabriel Rossetti >> experimented with bouts-rim?s. In 1864, Alexandre Dumas curated a >> volume of bouts-rim?s composed by 350 French poets -- all with the same >> rhymes. >> >> In the spirit of Dumas's invitation, we are accepting submissions of >> bouts-rim?s sonnets written with the following end-rhymes (in the >> following order): >> >> June >> stress >> moon >> obsess >> snake >> moot >> cake >> beaut >> Garbo >> play >> hobo >> day >> rhinestone >> cologne >> >> All themes and subjects are welcome as long as your sonnet uses these >> end-rhymes in the order they appear above. >> >> Submissions of bouts-rim?s sonnets for consideration in the dossier can >> be sent through May 1, 2005: Tony Trigilio, COURT GREEN, English >> Department, Columbia College Chicago, 600 South Michigan Avenue, >> Chicago, IL, 60605. Email submissions are not accepted. >> >> COURT GREEN is a new, nationally distributed journal co-edited by >> Arielle Greenberg, Tony Trigilio, and David Trinidad. Each issue will >> have a Dossier on a special topic or theme. The first issue is out now >> and features a Dossier on poetry on film, and includes poems by Ann >> Lauterbach, Michael Burkard, Elizabeth Willis, Maxine Kumin, Mary >> Szybist, Albert Goldbarth, Ron Padgett, Dodie Bellamy, Wayne Koestenbaum >> and others. Issue #2 (out by April 2005) features a Dossier on Lorine >> Niedecker. >> >> Submissions of poetry for the regular section of the magazine are >> welcome, in addition to Dossier submissions. If you would like to >> submit poems for the regular section, our reading period is February >> 1-May 1 of each year, to the same address above. >> >> If questions come up, email me at ttrigilio at colum.edu. Thanks- >> >> Best, >> Tony > From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jan 12 09:33:33 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:33:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lyn Hejinian, "The Person" Message-ID: The Person There is no time for rewriting My thoughts are in my neck Self-consciousness is discontinuous The very word "diary" embarrasses me There are schools of autobiography far removed--into them too socialism hums as mercury, spilled, splits and is solid The head is a case with genitals I laugh because things fit This is the solace of fatalism I distinguish it from non-literary reality Anything that decomposes rather than a person into temporal rather than spatial parts must be a person's life The rubbing of the grains of light Here the vanishing point is on every word The sun on the water that forms rings and they implode Streets stirring the desire to abandon territory The sky displaying love of the continuous In my neck, there's only time a bigness of the city that is I don't possess space--that's clear enough Feelings sink to the surface Kindness and worry, haste and interpretation Here I translate my thought into language--to double fate But fate imposes its very interesting exercise: select You yourself could generate the aesthetic heat of globes and stops, of shore and drone This makes for altruism-- the generosity of the poem If you know what to want you will be free --Lyn Hejinian from "The Person" in *The Cold of Poetry* [Los Angeles: Sun & Moon Press, 1994] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From kpaul at mallasch.com Wed Jan 12 09:58:28 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:58:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... In-Reply-To: <307185.1105537329941.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> References: <002e01c4f008$ea5b19a0$27af3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> <20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net> <307185.1105537329941.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050112095807.X6617@kpaul.spinweb.net> Just wanted everyone to know they weren't mine - i.e. i didn't write them. ;) -kpaul On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Mike Snider wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 09:32PM, kpaul mallasch wrote: > >> this could be the basis for an interesting class assignment, no? >> >> -kpaul >> >> Twinkle Twinkle Little Star >> >> Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific >> Fain I would fathom thy nature specific >> Loftily poised in the ether capacious >> Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous >> Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific >> Fain I would fathom thy nature specific >> >> ---------- >> >> Baa Baa Black Sheep >> >> Blat blat, >> Onyx ruminant >> Do you possess any cylindrical fibers of keratin? >> >> Affirmative, affirmative >> replete ternary satchels >> >> a satchel for my chatelain >> a satchel for my abecedarian >> and a satchel for the bantam homunculus >> who abides down the public passageway. >> >> ---------- >> >> >> Hey Diddle Diddle >> >> Behold the small, carnivorous, domesticated feline and the vielle, >> The bovine ruminant traversed over earth's natural satellite in a >> saltatorial manner; >> Upon beholding the phenomena, the diminutive carnivorous domesticated >> canine cachinnated. >> And the shallow concave container absquatulated with the small eating >> utensil. >> >> ---------- >> >> Little Boy Blue >> >> Bantam cyan scion, expel air through your brass instrument, >> The domesticated ruminant's in the lea, the bovine ruminant's in the tall >> annual cereal grass. >> Whence is the swain? >> Under the hayrick, dormantly abiding. >> Will you rouse the swain? Verily nay. >> If I arouse him, he will definitely ululate. >> >> ---------- >> >> >> Little Miss Muffet >> >> A diminutive signorina, reposed on a short cluster of elongated strands of >> grass, >> While partaking of her esculent coagulated and uncoagulated lacteal >> fluids; >> An arthropod arrived, who reposed adjacently, >> Resulting in her affrightment and abscondment. >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >> Jack and Jill >> >> A heterogeneous doublet proceeded towards the apex of a natural geologic >> protuberance, >> The purpose of their expedition being the procurement of a sample of fluid >> hydride of oxygen in a large vessel, >> The male member of the team precipitously descended, >> Sustaining severe damage to the upper cranial portion of his anatomical >> structure, >> Subsequently the second member of the team performed a self-rotational >> translation oriented in the same direction taken by the first team member. >> >> http://www.obfuscations.com/nursery_rhymes_for_the_erudite.htm >> > > Fun stuff, kpaul. Do you know Wendy Cope's nursery rhymes? Here's one "as it might have been written by William Wordsworth" > > > The skylark and the jay sang loud and long, > The sun was calm and bright, the air was sweet, > When all at once I heard above the throng > Of jocund birds a single plaintive bleat. > > And, turning, saw, as one sees in a dream, > It was a Sheep had broke the moorland peace > With his sad cry, a creature who did seem > The blackest that ever wore a fleece. > > I walked towards him on the stony track > And, pausing for a while between two crags, > I asked him, "Have you wool upon your back?" > Thus he bespake, "Enough to fill three bags." > > Most courteously, in measured tonesd, he to;d > WHo would receive each bag and where they dwelt; > And oft, now years have passed and I am old, > I recollect with joy that inky pelt. > > > At this site ( http://www.arlindo-correia.com/050900.html ) there's her version of Hickory Dickory Dock as if by T. S. Eliot, as well as The Waste Land Limericks and several others of her poems. > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jan 12 11:23:22 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:23:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... In-Reply-To: <307185.1105537329941.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> References: <20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <41E508AA.6672.514B90@localhost> On 12 Jan 2005 at 8:42, Mike Snider wrote: > >Twinkle Twinkle Little Star > > > >Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific > >Fain I would fathom thy nature specific > >Loftily poised in the ether capacious > >Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous > >Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific > >Fain I would fathom thy nature specific Also, are you familiar with the tradition of translating such stories into other modes of speaking, such as The Sycophantic Fox and the the Gullible Raven Guy Wetmore Carryl A raven sat upon a tree, And not a word he spoke, for His beak contained a piece of Brie, Or, maybe, it was Roquefort: We'll make it any kind you please-- At all events, it was a cheese. Beneath the tree's umbrageous limb A hungry fox sat smiling; He saw the raven watching him, And spoke in words beguiling. "_J'admire_," said he, "_ton beau plumage_." (The which was simply persiflage.) Two things there are, no doubt you know, To which a fox is used: A rooster that is bound to crow, A crow that's bound to roost, And whichsoever he espies He tells the most unblushing lies. "Sweet fowl," he said, "I understand You're more than merely natty, I hear you sing to beat the band And Adelina Patti. Pray render with your liquid tongue A bit from 'Gotterdammerung.'" This subtle speech was aimed to please The crow, and it succeeded: He thought no bird in all the trees Could sing as well as he did. In flattery completely doused, He gave the "Jewel Song" from "Faust." But gravitation's law, of course, As Isaac Newton showed it, Exerted on the cheese its force, And elsewhere soon bestowed it. In fact, there is no need to tell What happened when to earth it fell. I blush to add that when the bird Took in the situation He said one brief, emphatic word, Unfit for publication. The fox was greatly startled, but He only sighed and answered "Tut." THE MORAL is: A fox is bound To be a shameless sinner. And also: When the cheese comes round You know it's after dinner. But (what is only known to few) The fox is after dinner, too. From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 12 14:48:14 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:48:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... References: <002e01c4f008$ea5b19a0$27af3252@yourpk9x5fuc06><20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net> <307185.1105537329941.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <003701c4f8df$a9d105e0$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> For a class assignment, no. This is never the kind of torturing of language we want from our students. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Snider" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... > > On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 09:32PM, kpaul mallasch > wrote: > >>this could be the basis for an interesting class assignment, no? >> >>-kpaul >> >>Twinkle Twinkle Little Star >> >>Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific >>Fain I would fathom thy nature specific >>Loftily poised in the ether capacious >>Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous >>Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific >>Fain I would fathom thy nature specific >> >>---------- >> >>Baa Baa Black Sheep >> >>Blat blat, >>Onyx ruminant >>Do you possess any cylindrical fibers of keratin? >> >>Affirmative, affirmative >>replete ternary satchels >> >>a satchel for my chatelain >>a satchel for my abecedarian >>and a satchel for the bantam homunculus >>who abides down the public passageway. >> >>---------- >> >> >>Hey Diddle Diddle >> >>Behold the small, carnivorous, domesticated feline and the vielle, >>The bovine ruminant traversed over earth's natural satellite in a >>saltatorial manner; >>Upon beholding the phenomena, the diminutive carnivorous domesticated >>canine cachinnated. >>And the shallow concave container absquatulated with the small eating >>utensil. >> >>---------- >> >>Little Boy Blue >> >>Bantam cyan scion, expel air through your brass instrument, >>The domesticated ruminant's in the lea, the bovine ruminant's in the tall >>annual cereal grass. >>Whence is the swain? >>Under the hayrick, dormantly abiding. >>Will you rouse the swain? Verily nay. >>If I arouse him, he will definitely ululate. >> >>---------- >> >> >>Little Miss Muffet >> >>A diminutive signorina, reposed on a short cluster of elongated strands of >>grass, >>While partaking of her esculent coagulated and uncoagulated lacteal >>fluids; >>An arthropod arrived, who reposed adjacently, >>Resulting in her affrightment and abscondment. >> >>---------- >> >> >> >>Jack and Jill >> >>A heterogeneous doublet proceeded towards the apex of a natural geologic >>protuberance, >>The purpose of their expedition being the procurement of a sample of fluid >>hydride of oxygen in a large vessel, >>The male member of the team precipitously descended, >>Sustaining severe damage to the upper cranial portion of his anatomical >>structure, >>Subsequently the second member of the team performed a self-rotational >>translation oriented in the same direction taken by the first team member. >> >>http://www.obfuscations.com/nursery_rhymes_for_the_erudite.htm >> > > Fun stuff, kpaul. Do you know Wendy Cope's nursery rhymes? Here's one "as > it might have been written by William Wordsworth" > > > The skylark and the jay sang loud and long, > The sun was calm and bright, the air was sweet, > When all at once I heard above the throng > Of jocund birds a single plaintive bleat. > > And, turning, saw, as one sees in a dream, > It was a Sheep had broke the moorland peace > With his sad cry, a creature who did seem > The blackest that ever wore a fleece. > > I walked towards him on the stony track > And, pausing for a while between two crags, > I asked him, "Have you wool upon your back?" > Thus he bespake, "Enough to fill three bags." > > Most courteously, in measured tonesd, he to;d > WHo would receive each bag and where they dwelt; > And oft, now years have passed and I am old, > I recollect with joy that inky pelt. > > > At this site ( http://www.arlindo-correia.com/050900.html ) there's her > version of Hickory Dickory Dock as if by T. S. Eliot, as well as The Waste > Land Limericks and several others of her poems. > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 12 14:51:33 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:51:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... References: <20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net> <41E508AA.6672.514B90@localhost> Message-ID: <006901c4f8e0$20cf3630$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> Marcus - this is wonderful. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... > On 12 Jan 2005 at 8:42, Mike Snider wrote: >> >Twinkle Twinkle Little Star >> > >> >Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific >> >Fain I would fathom thy nature specific >> >Loftily poised in the ether capacious >> >Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous >> >Scintillate scintillate asteroid minific >> >Fain I would fathom thy nature specific > > Also, are you familiar with the tradition of translating such stories > into other modes of speaking, such as > > The Sycophantic Fox and the the Gullible Raven > Guy Wetmore Carryl > > A raven sat upon a tree, > And not a word he spoke, for > His beak contained a piece of Brie, > Or, maybe, it was Roquefort: > We'll make it any kind you please-- > At all events, it was a cheese. > > Beneath the tree's umbrageous limb > A hungry fox sat smiling; > He saw the raven watching him, > And spoke in words beguiling. > "_J'admire_," said he, "_ton beau plumage_." > (The which was simply persiflage.) > > Two things there are, no doubt you know, > To which a fox is used: > A rooster that is bound to crow, > A crow that's bound to roost, > And whichsoever he espies > He tells the most unblushing lies. > > "Sweet fowl," he said, "I understand > You're more than merely natty, > I hear you sing to beat the band > And Adelina Patti. > Pray render with your liquid tongue > A bit from 'Gotterdammerung.'" > > This subtle speech was aimed to please > The crow, and it succeeded: > He thought no bird in all the trees > Could sing as well as he did. > In flattery completely doused, > He gave the "Jewel Song" from "Faust." > > But gravitation's law, of course, > As Isaac Newton showed it, > Exerted on the cheese its force, > And elsewhere soon bestowed it. > In fact, there is no need to tell > What happened when to earth it fell. > > I blush to add that when the bird > Took in the situation > He said one brief, emphatic word, > Unfit for publication. > The fox was greatly startled, but > He only sighed and answered "Tut." > > THE MORAL is: A fox is bound > To be a shameless sinner. > And also: When the cheese comes round > You know it's after dinner. > But (what is only known to few) > The fox is after dinner, too. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jan 12 16:55:34 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:55:34 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... References: <20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net><41E508AA.6672.514B90@localhost> <006901c4f8e0$20cf3630$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <007801c4f8f1$71960380$31ab3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Alan Sondheim just sent this one to the Buffalo List: The man and the deer demonstration text for WVU The man went into the forest looking for deer. He didn't find very much, because he spent very little time there. Nothing came to mind. He had a gun with him and it was very good for the deer that he came back without any dead animals. He and his wife were very poor. La la la, what to do! What to do! There was no food in the house and they would soon starve to death. But they knew there were other folks in the town and soon they all got together and ate one another and that was the miserable end of the man and his wife because they were the first ones to be eaten. The moral is probably to shoot deer or shoot yourself, it doesn't matter much to God or anyone else. much went deer. the or yourself, doesn't for looking else. doesn't it else. looking deer. man much it God the He the God it much went He looking else. doesn't matter deer. deer. man much doesn't else. looking He the God doesn't God the didn't looking else. doesn't to went He deer. The much matter deer. didn't into God matter else. looking find looking anyone matter or the find He much to went didn't didn't into God much He very looking anyone much else. looking very deer. to or the very find went God God went didn't very forest anyone to He much, deer. to else. for much, find went God or the very much, forest anyone God went find because deer. else. God He because didn't man or else. looking because much, the anyone anyone the much, because for else. or went find he didn't man or He he much, the anyone else. looking he he for else. else. the much, spent didn't The anyone went find spent very into else. The He spent he looking else. else. looking he spent He The else. the much, very very into else. went find very he looking else. The He very very He The looking he little very went the because time he forest went find little very deer. The The He very time find went The looking spent there. because forest The the because there. very deer. man went find time time find went man He little there. because the man looking spent Nothing very for man the because Nothing time didn't went into find there. Nothing much, the went he little and and n't matter much to God or anyone el e he . He and hi . He and hi e he t looking for deer. He didn't find very much, becau e he no food in the hou in the town and oon they all got together and ate one another and that wa oon no food in the hou e and they would oon they all got together and ate one another and that wa t one to be eaten. The moral i t one erable end of the man and hi erable end of the man and hi t one elf, it doe e. e. hoot your hoot deer or elf, it doe Dze man uent !n2 dze 4ezt look!ng 4 der. He d!dnt f9nd vr! mukh, bkauze he zpent vr! l!ttle t!me da. Nodz!ng kame 2 m9nd. He had a gun u!th h!m + !t uaz vr! good 4 dze der dzat he kame ba-k u!dzout an! dead an!malz. He + h= u!fe ure vr! poor. La la la, uhat 2 do! What 2 do! Da uaz no food !n dze houze + dze! uould tzoon ztarve 2 death. But dze! kneu da ure odzr folkz !n dze town + tzoon dze! al got togedzr + ate 01 anodzr + dzat uaz dze m!zrable end ov dze man + h= u!fe bkauze dze! ure dze v!rzt onez 2 b eaten. Dze morl = probabl! 2 shoot der or shoot yourzelv, !t doeznt mattr mukh 2 God or an!01 elze. much, very find didn't He deer. for looking forest the into went man The a had He mind. to came Nothing there. time little very spent he because without back came he that deer the for good very was it and him with gun do! to what la, la La poor. very were wife his and He animals. dead any starve soon would they and house the in food no was There do! to What they soon and town the in folks other were there knew they But death. to of end miserable the was that and another one ate and together got all The eaten. be to ones first the were they because wife his and man the much matter doesn't it yourself, shoot or deer shoot to probably is moral else. anyone or God to The man went into the forest looking for deer. He didn't find very much, because he spent little time there. Nothing came to mind. had a gun with him and it was good deer that back without any dead animals. his wife were poor. La la la, what do! What There no food in house they would soon starve death. But knew there other folks town all got together ate one another miserable end of first ones be eaten. moral is probably shoot or yourself, doesn't matter much God anyone else. _ From kpaul at mallasch.com Wed Jan 12 18:20:41 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:20:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... In-Reply-To: <007801c4f8f1$71960380$31ab3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> References: <20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net><41E508AA.6672.514B90@localhost> <006901c4f8e0$20cf3630$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> <007801c4f8f1$71960380$31ab3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <20050112181920.D81736@kpaul.spinweb.net> machine generated? sounded a little like a markov chain or somethin'? either way, interesting, imho... -kpaul On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Alan Sondheim just sent this one to the Buffalo List: > > The man and the deer demonstration text for WVU > > The man went into the forest looking for deer. He didn't find very much, > because he spent very little time there. Nothing came to mind. He had a > gun with him and it was very good for the deer that he came back without > any dead animals. He and his wife were very poor. La la la, what to do! > What to do! There was no food in the house and they would soon starve > to death. But they knew there were other folks in the town and soon they > all got together and ate one another and that was the miserable end of > the man and his wife because they were the first ones to be eaten. The > moral is probably to shoot deer or shoot yourself, it doesn't matter much > to God or anyone else. > > much went deer. the or yourself, doesn't for looking else. doesn't it > else. looking deer. man much it God the He the God it much went He looking > else. doesn't matter deer. deer. man much doesn't else. looking He the God > doesn't God the didn't looking else. doesn't to went He deer. The much > matter deer. didn't into God matter else. looking find looking anyone > matter or the find He much to went didn't didn't into God much He very > looking anyone much else. looking very deer. to or the very find went God > God went didn't very forest anyone to He much, deer. to else. for much, > find went God or the very much, forest anyone God went find because deer. > else. God He because didn't man or else. looking because much, the anyone > anyone the much, because for else. or went find he didn't man or He he > much, the anyone else. looking he he for else. else. the much, spent > didn't The anyone went find spent very into else. The He spent he looking > else. else. looking he spent He The else. the much, very very into else. > went find very he looking else. The He very very He The looking he little > very went the because time he forest went find little very deer. The The > He very time find went The looking spent there. because forest The the > because there. very deer. man went find time time find went man He little > there. because the man looking spent Nothing very for man the because > Nothing time didn't went into find there. Nothing much, the went he little > and and > > n't matter much to God or anyone el e he . He and hi . He and hi e he t > looking for deer. He didn't find very much, becau e he no food in the hou > in the town and oon they all got together and ate one another and that wa > oon no food in the hou e and they would oon they all got together and ate > one another and that wa t one to be eaten. The moral i t one erable end of > the man and hi erable end of the man and hi t one elf, it doe e. e. hoot > your hoot deer or elf, it doe > > Dze man uent !n2 dze 4ezt look!ng 4 der. He d!dnt f9nd vr! mukh, bkauze he > zpent vr! l!ttle t!me da. Nodz!ng kame 2 m9nd. He had a gun u!th h!m + !t > uaz vr! good 4 dze der dzat he kame ba-k u!dzout an! dead an!malz. He + h= > u!fe ure vr! poor. La la la, uhat 2 do! What 2 do! Da uaz no food !n dze > houze + dze! uould tzoon ztarve 2 death. But dze! kneu da ure odzr folkz > !n dze town + tzoon dze! al got togedzr + ate 01 anodzr + dzat uaz dze > m!zrable end ov dze man + h= u!fe bkauze dze! ure dze v!rzt onez 2 b > eaten. Dze morl = probabl! 2 shoot der or shoot yourzelv, !t doeznt mattr > mukh 2 God or an!01 elze. > > much, very find didn't He deer. for looking forest the into went man The a > had He mind. to came Nothing there. time little very spent he because > without back came he that deer the for good very was it and him with gun > do! to what la, la La poor. very were wife his and He animals. dead any > starve soon would they and house the in food no was There do! to What they > soon and town the in folks other were there knew they But death. to of end > miserable the was that and another one ate and together got all The eaten. > be to ones first the were they because wife his and man the much matter > doesn't it yourself, shoot or deer shoot to probably is moral else. anyone > or God to > > The man went into the forest looking for deer. He didn't find very much, > because he spent little time there. Nothing came to mind. had a gun with > him and it was good deer that back without any dead animals. his wife were > poor. La la la, what do! What There no food in house they would soon > starve death. But knew there other folks town all got together ate one > another miserable end of first ones be eaten. moral is probably shoot or > yourself, doesn't matter much God anyone else. > > _ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From kpaul at mallasch.com Wed Jan 12 19:02:12 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:02:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] erudite nursery rhymes... In-Reply-To: <20050112181920.D81736@kpaul.spinweb.net> References: <20050111213031.H33160@kpaul.spinweb.net><41E508AA.6672.514B90@localhost> <006901c4f8e0$20cf3630$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> <007801c4f8f1$71960380$31ab3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> <20050112181920.D81736@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <20050112190148.K17591@kpaul.spinweb.net> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, kpaul mallasch wrote: > machine generated? sounded a little like a markov chain or somethin'? > > either way, interesting, imho... > > -kpaul as in this: http://www.mallasch.com/cgi-bin/markov.cgi markov chains of one of the presidential debates... -kpaul > On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: > >> Alan Sondheim just sent this one to the Buffalo List: >> >> The man and the deer demonstration text for WVU >> >> The man went into the forest looking for deer. He didn't find very much, >> because he spent very little time there. Nothing came to mind. He had a >> gun with him and it was very good for the deer that he came back without >> any dead animals. He and his wife were very poor. La la la, what to do! >> What to do! There was no food in the house and they would soon starve >> to death. But they knew there were other folks in the town and soon they >> all got together and ate one another and that was the miserable end of >> the man and his wife because they were the first ones to be eaten. The >> moral is probably to shoot deer or shoot yourself, it doesn't matter much >> to God or anyone else. >> >> much went deer. the or yourself, doesn't for looking else. doesn't it >> else. looking deer. man much it God the He the God it much went He looking >> else. doesn't matter deer. deer. man much doesn't else. looking He the God >> doesn't God the didn't looking else. doesn't to went He deer. The much >> matter deer. didn't into God matter else. looking find looking anyone >> matter or the find He much to went didn't didn't into God much He very >> looking anyone much else. looking very deer. to or the very find went God >> God went didn't very forest anyone to He much, deer. to else. for much, >> find went God or the very much, forest anyone God went find because deer. >> else. God He because didn't man or else. looking because much, the anyone >> anyone the much, because for else. or went find he didn't man or He he >> much, the anyone else. looking he he for else. else. the much, spent >> didn't The anyone went find spent very into else. The He spent he looking >> else. else. looking he spent He The else. the much, very very into else. >> went find very he looking else. The He very very He The looking he little >> very went the because time he forest went find little very deer. The The >> He very time find went The looking spent there. because forest The the >> because there. very deer. man went find time time find went man He little >> there. because the man looking spent Nothing very for man the because >> Nothing time didn't went into find there. Nothing much, the went he little >> and and >> >> n't matter much to God or anyone el e he . He and hi . He and hi e he t >> looking for deer. He didn't find very much, becau e he no food in the hou >> in the town and oon they all got together and ate one another and that wa >> oon no food in the hou e and they would oon they all got together and ate >> one another and that wa t one to be eaten. The moral i t one erable end of >> the man and hi erable end of the man and hi t one elf, it doe e. e. hoot >> your hoot deer or elf, it doe >> >> Dze man uent !n2 dze 4ezt look!ng 4 der. He d!dnt f9nd vr! mukh, bkauze he >> zpent vr! l!ttle t!me da. Nodz!ng kame 2 m9nd. He had a gun u!th h!m + !t >> uaz vr! good 4 dze der dzat he kame ba-k u!dzout an! dead an!malz. He + h= >> u!fe ure vr! poor. La la la, uhat 2 do! What 2 do! Da uaz no food !n dze >> houze + dze! uould tzoon ztarve 2 death. But dze! kneu da ure odzr folkz >> !n dze town + tzoon dze! al got togedzr + ate 01 anodzr + dzat uaz dze >> m!zrable end ov dze man + h= u!fe bkauze dze! ure dze v!rzt onez 2 b >> eaten. Dze morl = probabl! 2 shoot der or shoot yourzelv, !t doeznt mattr >> mukh 2 God or an!01 elze. >> >> much, very find didn't He deer. for looking forest the into went man The a >> had He mind. to came Nothing there. time little very spent he because >> without back came he that deer the for good very was it and him with gun >> do! to what la, la La poor. very were wife his and He animals. dead any >> starve soon would they and house the in food no was There do! to What they >> soon and town the in folks other were there knew they But death. to of end >> miserable the was that and another one ate and together got all The eaten. >> be to ones first the were they because wife his and man the much matter >> doesn't it yourself, shoot or deer shoot to probably is moral else. anyone >> or God to >> >> The man went into the forest looking for deer. He didn't find very much, >> because he spent little time there. Nothing came to mind. had a gun with >> him and it was good deer that back without any dead animals. his wife were >> poor. La la la, what do! What There no food in house they would soon >> starve death. But knew there other folks town all got together ate one >> another miserable end of first ones be eaten. moral is probably shoot or >> yourself, doesn't matter much God anyone else. >> >> _ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 12 21:25:31 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:25:31 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry readings Message-ID: <1df.32d23af8.2f17361b@aol.com> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/entertainment/stories.nsf/books/story/1E0521487E034DF586256F860037F5B5?OpenDocument&Headline=Poetry+in+motion One of the things you do if you are consumed with poetry is go to poetry readings. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 12 21:52:28 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:52:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry walk in berkeley Message-ID: <158.47fef59a.2f173c6c@aol.com> http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2005/01/12_poetry.shtml Berkeley Poetry Walk I'm part of group raising funds for The Wallace Stevens Walk. It will be a series of 13 black granite stones, each carved uniquely, and each bearing a section from Thirteen Ways Of Looking At A Blackbird. The stones will be set in the ground along the sidewalk from Stevens' home on Westerly Terrace to his place of business The Hartford Insurance Co. building on Asylum Ave in Hartford. He was said to walk to & from work most days and while he walked he composed his poetry. Let me know if you're interested in helping out with a donation and I'll send you more information backchannel. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jan 13 07:00:09 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:00:09 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Imperial Cultures Message-ID: <008601c4f967$6e46fbf0$0cdf3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> >From: "Pierre Guerlain" >Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:31:12 +0100 International Conference Paris X Nanterre University (France) November 17-18, 2005 IMPERIAL CULTURES : TRANSATLANTIC PERSPECTIVES ON EMPIRES The new political conjuncture, which for the past two years has been epitomized by the war in Iraq, may indicate certain major shifts now affecting the paradigms which, for the past twenty years, have constituted the dominant horizon of intellectual debate. The various academic disciplines which together make up "English and American studies" - from historiography to literary theory, not forgetting the analysis of political institutions and the current state of international relations - thus offer a series of privileged vantage-points for the observation and examination of these shifts. The recent precipitation of these evolutions in the context of the war in Iraq and, beyond this, the possible future extension of U.S. military intervention, have lent a renewed urgency to the need for an inquiry involving a confrontation of the various disciplinary viewpoints on the current pertinence of the concepts of empire and imperialism. Such an inquiry inevitably has implications for a whole range of presuppositions that are commonly drawn upon for the analysis of globalization and its effects on the societies located at the heart of the new Empire (whose existence and whose manifestations must be examined). The current conjuncture would seem to distort the conceptual and interpretational template which the triumph of "the new world order" (so near to us in time, so strangely distant now) had propagated. The current tuning of critical attentions to the question of empire and imperialism thus amounts to a epochal shift, involving a displacement in concepts, notions, presuppositions. New questions emerge, while other, older questions take on a renewed urgency. The following enumeration is tentatively put forward: - questions of history and geopolitics: the pertinence of the comparisons between the present situation and the experience of an earlier, imperialist modernity; the legacy, today, of discourses of the "mission" or "destiny" of "civilization"; the specific traits assumed by the domination currently exercised by the United States; the economic and political stakes (such as the control of energy supplies) involved, in the light of the emergence of China as a superpower; the validity of possible comparisons between current U.S. military policies in the Middle East and those implemented in Central and South America; relations between the British and American empires, questions of heritage and rupture, the exemplarity or otherwise of the former for today's neo-imperialists. - question of theory: what, today, is the philosophical thinking of the totality?; how do we analyze the quest for identity/identities or the new forms of identity politics and their inscription on what new map of the world?; how do we think through the categories of difference, alterity, universalism?; what, in this context, is the contribution of Marxist, post-colonial and subaltern studies? - questions of cultural analysis: is there a contemporary imperial imaginary?; how is it linked to the dynamic of concentration at work in the culture and media industry?; how does the Empire structure the societies of the center and those of the periphery? - questions of local, domestic politics: what today are the countervailing powers, in the United States or in Great Britain?; from what vantage-point and by whom is the critique of the imperial-military re-centering of globalization formulated?; how are we to assess the situation of the various communities in Great Britain and in the United States, notably the quasi-colonial situation of African Americans in the United States?; how are we to evaluate the magnitude of the threats posed by the deployment of the new security technologies and by the juridical procedures which, in the name of the fight against terrorism, are endangering civil liberties: to what extent is there a link between the arsenal of domestic anti-labor legislation and neo-imperialist considerations? - Lastly, questions relative to the field of intellectual inquiry: who, whether inside or outside the imperial societies, is it who "thinks" Empire and imperialism. How are we to assess the globalization of anti-imperialist or alternative-globalist thinking? What are the obstacles and resistances encountered by Empire, and can we envisage a decline or a radical transformation of imperialism? For information about the conference, please contact: Pierre Guerlain, pierre.guerlain at u-paris10.fr (for the proposal of papers about the United States) Thierry Labica, thierry.labica at wanadoo.fr (for the proposal of papers about Great Britain) Deadline for the submission of a one-page outline: June 1, 2005. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jan 13 10:16:41 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:16:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets in the news: C. K. Williams Message-ID: from this ayem's NYT Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ ============== January 13, 2005 PUBLIC LIVES Poet Marshals His Moral Passion Against the War By CHRIS HEDGES PRINCETON, N.J. - The poetry of C. K. Williams is the antidote to patriotic jingoism, moral smugness and the imbecility of the easily amused. His fierce, unrelenting moral spotlight, turned unflinchingly on himself and the world around him, however, has intensified with war and terrorism. "It is hard to write about something else, although I do" he says of the war in Iraq and what he sees as an assault on American democracy. "I feel sometimes I should be writing about other things, but I keep coming back to what is happening to us." Mr. Williams, 68, known as Charlie to his friends, spends half his year in France and half teaching at Princeton University. He is finishing editing his collected poems, which will be published next year, and reigns, after years in relative obscurity, as one of the nation's leading poets. He grew up in a poor family in Newark, although his father later became a wealthy businessman. His mother, he says, was "a businessman's wife." Mr. Williams's passions in high school were "girls and basketball," in that order. Standing 6 feet 5 inches tall, he was recruited as a basketball prospect to Bucknell University. It was a miserable freshman year. He "got tired of basketball" and found the Pennsylvania countryside "lonely and depressing." He transferred to the University of Pennsylvania. His other passion, undiminished, led him to attempt to impress a date with a love poem. "It was an abominable poem," he said with a laugh, "but she liked it." He decided he wanted to be a poet. Poets, as he imagined them, lived in garrets in Paris where they ruminated about life and lived in genteel poverty. A bit of suffering would not hurt. So he dropped out of school, got some money from his father and moved into a small hotel on the Left Bank. He unpacked his typewriter and set it on a table. The muse he had expected to guide him never arrived. "Fortunately, there was an English bookstore close by and I began to read everything," he says. "I spent five months in Paris. I wrote nothing worth speaking about, other than a ton of letters, but I read a lot." He read enough to know what he did not know. He returned to the University of Pennsylvania, chastened, but also determined to "learn something, to learn poetry." "It was an incredibly important time," he says, "not much happened and yet my life began then. I discovered the limits of loneliness." In the late 60's and early 70's, he started his career, as a fiery antiwar poet, using his lyricism to damn those whom he believed had plunged the country into an indefensible conflict. When his daughter was born in 1969, the killing of children in Vietnam unleashed within him "an incredible fury about the evil in the world." His 1972 collection of antiwar poems, "I Am the Bitter Name," however, coincided with the breakup of his first marriage and a bout with depression that made him consider abandoning poetry. He supported himself by helping lead group therapy sessions, writing reviews and ghost writing. Success, at least success as defined by popular poets like Allen Ginsberg, eluded him, but also kept him focused on his craft. He began to write in long lines, something many critics consider the principal innovation of his poetry. "It is always there," he says of his outrage, "but it is more subliminal and is no longer on the surface. I do not want to be dogmatic." He began teaching in 1975, first at a Y.M.C.A. in Philadelphia and later at Drexel University and Franklin and Marshall College. He translated Sophocles' "Women of Trachis" and Euripides' "Bacchae."' He attracted notice, winning nearly every major poetry award, including the Pulitzer Prize in 2000 and the National Book Award in 2003. His poems, rich in imagery, often challenge American pretensions of goodness and virtue. He denounced the abandonment of the weak and the poor and the callousness of the moneyed class. He is ruthless in exposing his own sins, and helps us uncover our own. It was the war in Iraq, however, that led him to circle back to where he had started. "The unreasonableness of war, the killing of children, drives me to distraction," he says. "My moral system grows out of this. There has never been a moment in my life when I felt we were in so much danger. I am a father and a grandfather. I have three grandsons. I am afraid for them." He leaves Princeton in the summer and fall to live in an isolated house in France. He does carpentry and plumbing and explains the process of installing a new toilet. His wife, Catherine Mauger, who is French and whom he met in 1973, is a jeweler. They have a son who is a painter. He unfolds a piece of paper with a poem called "Shrapnel." He lays it out with his long fingers on a table at a Princeton restaurant. "There are photos as well--one shows a father rushing through the street, his face torn with a last frantic hope, His son in his arms, rag-limp, chest and abdomen speckled with deep, dark gashes and smears of blood, Propaganda's function, of course, is exaggeration: the facts are there, though, the child is there ... or not there." From jsafdie at comcast.net Thu Jan 13 11:11:43 2005 From: jsafdie at comcast.net (Joe Safdie) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:11:43 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets in the news: C. K. Williams and Jane Hirshfield References: Message-ID: <003d01c4f98a$94b6fd80$3f021218@D6T95L21> Hal, thanks so much for posting that. Instead of reading the *NYT* first thing this morning, I went to the computer. I wonder if my reaction would have been different if I had read this in the paper rather than on the screen . . . I've known about this gentleman for some time, but was never particularly enthralled by his work; still, I can't help but applaud his subject matter. (A few days ago, I was reading someone who wrote "subject is everything" . . . implying, as Creeley did so long ago, that it would create its own form . . . but I can't remember who said it). Of course, to some on this list, Mr. Williams won't be a poet because those long lines of his don't seem to be written in any characterizable meter. God, that was an insufferable discussion back in December . . . (in my opinion, of course). It made me realize that this list wasn't, finally, for me. But then, the "organic form" of Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov (and Charles Olson and Edward Dorn and Ezra Pound) was and always has been my teacher in these matters, and I understand that that perspective is alien to the central concerns of this list. Anyway, I've always taken a Blakean view of poetry -- there are no poetry contests in Eternity, and as Kent said a while back, there's room for everyone. So, with thanks for the opportunity to get to know some voices unfamiliar to me, I'll say bon voyage for now. And for Marcus and Paul and Michael especially, here's a poem by Jane Hirshfield from her book, *Given Sugar, Given Salt*: LINNAEAN PROBLEM I have been wondering why there is no name for that part of poetry's music which is not rhythmic. It is simple to say "meter," "drumbeat," "stress" -- but what is the other half called? Prosody, "sound," melopoeia -- each covers both. Rhyme is merely a fraction; assonance, consonance, tune mean only themselves. Perhaps it is like the problem of horse and rider: Easy to have a horse with no rider, impossible to have a rider without, grazing somewhere nearby, a horse. Time exists without the scented, muscular body traveling through it, but no planet, parrot tick, leopard lives free of time. Even the purest singing signals a maculate conception, within an imagination schooled by passage. And so that part of poetry's music made by the untempered mouth, breath, and throat remains, without the measuring hoofbeat, uncapturable silence. A mockingbird's song heard in a mirror: the shadow a dog's night-barking leaves on the dark. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" from this ayem's NYT January 13, 2005 PUBLIC LIVES Poet Marshals His Moral Passion Against the War By CHRIS HEDGES PRINCETON, N.J. - The poetry of C. K. Williams is the antidote to patriotic jingoism, moral smugness and the imbecility of the easily amused. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jan 13 12:26:56 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:26:56 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Joyce's Death and "Wake" + Email Zola (Jan 13) Message-ID: <006101c4f995$156ced40$0bee3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> This is quite funny, see in the subject line what "Today in Literature" is sending out: Zola's Email, fantastic, this IS a step forward... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Today in Literature" To: Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 4:20 PM Subject: Joyce's Death and "Wake" + Email Zola (Jan 13) > TODAY IN LITERATURE - FREE EDITION January 13th > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > In this DOUBLE ISSUE ... > > 1. TODAY: Joyce's Death and "Wake" > 2. TODAY: Zola, Dreyfus, "J'Accuse" > 3. Today's Quotation: Edmund White > 4. Today's Text: "The James Joyce Murder," by Amanda Cross > 5. TinL Marketplace > 6. Links > > Tomorrow: Emily Hahn: "Nobody Said Not to Go" > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > TODAY: Joyce's Death and "Wake" > > On this day in 1941 James Joyce died in Zurich at the age of > fifty-eight. Even without the dislocation of WWII, Joyce's last > years were beset with difficulties -- the schizophrenia of his > daughter, the breakdown of his son's career and marriage, his own > poor health, ongoing battles over "Ulysses" and new worries about > "Finnegans Wake." "Though not so blind as Homer, and not so > exiled as Dante," writes biographer Richard Ellmann, "he had > reached his life's nadir." > > To read the full article, please visit: > http://www.todayinliterature.com/today-ct.asp?id=1/13/2005 > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > AND ALSO TODAY: Zola, Dreyfus, "J'Accuse" > > On this day in 1898 Emile Zola published his "J'Accuse" letter on > the Dreyfus Affair in the French newspaper "L'Aurore." It listed > the eight people (including the President of the Republic) whom > he held responsible for the scapegoat conviction of Captain > Dreyfus for treason three years earlier. It was ultimately > successful, but it also set off a chain of events that would > force Zola to flee to England -- some say it also got him > killed.... > > Note: this article is restricted to premium members. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Today's Quotation: > > "Sharing an office is like being in a Beckett play...after > everything has been said you still must go on talking." > > Edmund White, in "The Farewell Symphony"; White was born on this > day in 1940 > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Today's Text: > > "The James Joyce Murder," by Amanda Cross, pseudonym of Carolyn > Heilbrun, who was born on this day (Joyce's death day) in 1926. > The author is an English professor, heroine Kate Fansler is an > Engish professor, the chapter headings are titled from Joyce's > "Dubliners," the plot turns around a collection of literary > papers, and at this moment two other English professors are on > their innocent way to the scene of the upcoming crime - young > Lina driving the seventy-year-old Grace Knole, "the greatest > living medieval scholar" but a bit of a joke.... > > [ full text restricted to Premium Members ] > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > BECOME A PREMIUM MEMBER ... FOR FREE ? > > If you enjoy our free daily e-mail, you will love our premium > member package -- extended-format e-mail, unlimited access to > over 450 articles on our website, the works. > > Premium memberships are affordably priced at only $20 USD per > year -- that's money you can easily put right back in your pocket > by taking advantage of the member-only offers from the reputable > sponsors in the TinL Marketplace. > > Offers currently available to Premium Members include: > > - up to 40% off books at Powell's > - save up 30% at AudioBooksOnline.com > - special holiday offer from White Oaks Spa and Resorts > - 10% off orders from Levenger.com, tools for serious readers > - 10% off orders by Bonny Doon Vineyards > - preferred rate at Algonquin Hotel, NYC > - 10% off literary-themed trips with Classical Pursuits > .. AND MORE! > > To become a Premium Member and receive an extended daily e-mail, > unlimited website access, and exclusive member-only offers, > please login to your account and follow the "upgrade" link: > > http://www.todayinliterature.com/login.asp > > AND IF YOU ARE A TEACHER OR LIBRARIAN, you may be interested in > our special 'site license' offer: unlimited access to Today in > Literature for your entire school or library system for as little > as $75 USD per year, and receive TWO complementary Premium > Memberships on us! For more information, please visit: > > http://www.todayinliterature.com/libraries > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > To TELL a FRIEND about Today in Literature: > http://www.todayinliterature.com/refer.asp > > To SUBSCRIBE to this e-mail: > http://www.todayinliterature.com/register.asp > > To SWITCH to WEEKLY MAILINGS: > http://www.todayinliterature.com/login.asp > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from this service: > Please REPLY with the subject "UNSUBSCRIBE" > > Copyright 2000-2004. Today in Literature. All rights reserved. > THIS E-MAIL IS FOR PERSONAL, NON-COMMERCIAL USE ONLY. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul at tbhinc.com Thu Jan 13 13:57:26 2005 From: paul at tbhinc.com (Paul C. Howell) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:57:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Imperial Cultures In-Reply-To: <200501131700.j0DH09Am007170@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200501131700.j0DH09Am007170@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050113135647.01d65cf0@tbhinc.com> At 12:00 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote: >questions of cultural analysis: is there a contemporary imperial >imaginary?; I sure hope someone answers this sticky question. From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 13 14:03:24 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:03:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Imperial Cultures Message-ID: <1ea.34021db5.2f181ffc@aol.com> In a message dated 1/13/2005 1:58:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul at tbhinc.com writes: contemporary imperial >imaginary?; I sure hope someone answers this sticky question. I'll settle for a rough definition of the term itself for starters. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Thu Jan 13 17:03:38 2005 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:03:38 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Santa Monica Reading Series In-Reply-To: <200501121700.j0CH08Al032525@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050113140215.00c46ff0@incoming.verizon.net> L.A. area folks might be interested: POEM.X Rings in 2005 With Readings by Eloise Klein Healy and Barry Spacks Poem.X opens its schedule of 2005 programs with readings by poets Eloise Klein Healy and Barry Spacks on Friday, January 21, 2005 at 8 P.M. Poem.X events, curated by poets Jeanette Clough and Jim Natal, are held at Barnes & Noble Santa Monica, 1201 Third Street Promenade (at Wilshire), (310) 260-9110. Admission is free. Healy just returned from Greece where she researched the poetry of Sappho, funded by a COLA Grant from the Cultural Affairs Department of the City of Los Angeles. Her most recent collection, Passing (Red Hen Press), was a finalist for the Lambda Literary Award in Poetry as well as the Publishing Triangle's Audre Lorde Lesbian Poetry Prize. Her previous book, Artemis in Echo Park, also was a finalist for the Lambda Award and was released as a spoken word recording by New Alliance Records. Healy's work has been widely anthologized, and she has been awarded residencies at Dorland Mountain Colony and The MacDowell Colony. She is the founding chair of the MFA in Creative Writing Program at Antioch University Los Angeles. Spacks, already the author of seven books of poetry, had two new poetry collections published in 2004: The Hope of the Air (Michigan State University Press) and Regarding Women (WordTech Communications), which was the winner of the Cherry Grove Collections Prize. A previous book, Spacks Street: New and Selected Poems, was the recipient of the Commonwealth Club of California's Poetry Medal. His poetry and short fiction have appeared in dozens of literary journals and anthologies, and in CD format (A Private Reading). Spacks taught for many years at M.I.T. and at U.C. Santa Barbara. The Poem.X series continues on Friday, February 25, 2005 at 8 P.M. with Kate Gale and Lola Haskins. For further information, contact: Jim Natal at: (310) 821-3906 / or Jeanette Clough: JClough at getty.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 13 19:17:25 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:17:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Shearsman announcements Message-ID: <193.371c576f.2f186995@aol.com> Date:? ? Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:38:52 +0000 From:? ? Tony Frazer Subject: Shearsman 61 is now online at http://www.shearsman.com/pages/magazine/current_issue/contents.html or via a click-through from the home page at http://www.shearsman.com/ This issue features work by M.T.C. Cronin, C.P. Crowther, Jesse Glass, Liam Guilar, Anthony Hawley, Peter Larkin, Robert Saxton, Hyam Yared Shoucair (trans. Richard Burns & Melanie Rein), Colin Simms, Janet Sutherland and Marina Tsvetaeva (trans. Belinda Cooke). Reviews will appear on-site later this month. ___________________________________ Tony Frazer Shearsman Books Ltd 58 Velwell Road Exeter EX4 4LD England Tel / Fax: (+44) (0) 1392-434511 http://www.shearsman.com/ ___________________________________ ------------------------------ Date:? ? Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:00:14 +0000 From:? ? Tony Frazer Subject: New Publications from Shearsman Books Now available are: Anthony Barnett: Miscanthus. Selected and New Poetry. ISBN 0-907562-55-8 8.5ins x 5.5ins, Paperback, 252pp, =A311.95 / $17.95. A? long-overdue survey of Anthony Barnett's work, this book provides a=20= welcome opportunity for new readers to get to know his singular art =96=20= he? is like no other poet of his generation writing in the UK, but both=20= his elliptical lyrics and his work in longer spans should be part of =20 the current consensus as to what constitutes modern English poetry. John Muckle: Firewriting ISBN 0-907562-64-7 9ins x 6ins, paperback, 132pp, =A39.95 / $15.95. This is John Muckle's first collection, and it features many of his=20 extraordinary? narrative poems. The long title poem, an earlier version=20= of which was featured in the online Shearsman Gallery is an amazing=20 conceit, in which it is imagined that the German-Jewish? critic Walter=20= Benjamin escaped death by his own hand on the French-Spanish? border in=20= 1940 =96 his revolver misfired =96 and has survived? as a kind of = wanderer=20 and witness. After the war he returned to Paris, but later moved to=20 London where, in the now of the poem at the age of 120, he is recalling=20= some of his ideas =96 and confessing =96 to? a nurse, whom he imagines=20= might also be a student of his work. David Miller: The Waters of Marah. Selected Prose 1973-1995. ISBN 0-907562-66-3 8.5ins x 5.5ins, paperback, =A38.95. [Not for sale outside the UK.] 'The Waters of Marah' brings together the best of the David Miller's=20 non-poetic output. The prose here however does include work that would=20= be classified as prose-poetry in most quarters, as well as the longer=20 work 'Tesserae' which could be better described as experimental=20 fiction. These pieces tend also to have? verse interludes, which=20 further confuses the definition of which category they actually belong=20= to. In the end however, categories are irrelevant, and the work can be=20= read on its own terms, be it prose, be it prose-poetry, be it fiction,=20= be it poetry. This is musical work that explores the parameters of the=20= sayable in a manner that does not repel the reader but rather draws=20 him/her in as a participant in a remarkable enterprise. This book is already available in the USA from Singing Horse Press,=20 Philadelphia and is distributed by SPD. Anyone ordering two of the above titles direct from the press can have=20= the cheaper of the two volumes at 20% discount. Anyone ordering all=20 three gets the second at 20% off and the third at 30%. Coming soon: books by Peter Dent, Lisa Samuels, John Seed, Laurie=20 Duggan and Catherine Walsh. ___________________________________ Tony Frazer Shearsman Books Ltd 58 Velwell Road Exeter EX4 4LD England Tel / Fax: (+44) (0) 1392-434511 http://www.shearsman.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 13 21:03:14 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:03:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Very cool sound files Message-ID: <27.699f4054.2f188262@aol.com> http://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/5824 Including Marie Osmond's recitation of dadaist Hugo Ball's non-verbal poem 'Karawane' (1916) recorded from a 'Ripley's Believe It of Not' program. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jan 14 15:15:16 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:15:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Guys Message-ID: Now up at Poetry Daily as their Prose Feature is David Orr's article "Bad Guys," from *Poetry*. A very canny examination of issues of biography and rhetoric regarding lyric poetry, with special attention to the case of Philip Larkin. Well worth a look. Here's a snippet: --------- Take Larkin?s alleged misogyny, for example. Assume for the moment that the case against the poet could be stated as follows: he punched his first wife in the face and broke her nose, threw a subsequent lover on the floor and tried to strangle her, deserted his second wife and their child for another woman, and then appropriated his second wife?s letters (written under the stress and pain of desertion) into a book of poems addressed to his third wife. Given this dismal record, you could see why some critics would be tempted to accuse Larkin of hating women, no matter how pleasant his poems were. But the above incidents weren?t part of Larkin's life, they were part of Robert Lowell?s (the end of that description was borrowed from Adrienne Rich?s review of Lowell?s later books). Collected versions of both Larkin?s and Lowell?s poems were released this year; many of Larkin?s major print reviews involved the word "misogyny," but not one of Lowell?s did. The point here is not to suggest that Lowell should have been called a misogynist ? he shouldn?t ? but to show that we view different poets? behavior differently, depending on the way in which the misbehavior seems related either to the poet?s art or to one of our ideas about The Poet. In this case, Lowell?s work often has to do with madness, excess, and violence, so it isn?t particularly surprising to find that he could be mad, bad, and dangerous to know. And as most recent reviews of Lowell?s Collected demonstrate, critics are still at least as in love with an idea of Lowell as they are with his poems. Lowell performed a version of The Poet that we like ? that of Raging, Aristocratic Hero ? and he never broke character. Larkin played a part we thought we might like ? Common Man ? yet he did things we don?t want to think are common at all. That we find hard to forgive. --David Orr ================================ ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From MillB at aol.com Fri Jan 14 15:18:57 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:18:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Guys Message-ID: <1e3.32de3011.2f198331@aol.com> David, Could you please post the link to the article? Thanks, Mill I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters. Frank Lloyd Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jan 14 15:23:06 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:23:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Guys In-Reply-To: <1e3.32de3011.2f198331@aol.com> Message-ID: on 1/14/05 2:18 PM, MillB at aol.com at MillB at aol.com wrote: David, Could you please post the link to the article? Thanks, Mill Gee, doesn't everyone have Poetry Daily bookmarked? http://www.poems.com/news.htm ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 15:54:21 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:54:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Guys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050114205421.50341.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com> Now David, You know that Grumman doesn't . . . j/k Bob, Jeff --- David Graham wrote: > on 1/14/05 2:18 PM, MillB at aol.com at MillB at aol.com > wrote: > > David, > > Could you please post the link to the article? > > Thanks, > > Mill > > Gee, doesn't everyone have Poetry Daily bookmarked? > > http://www.poems.com/news.htm > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jan 14 18:28:58 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:28:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Guys References: <20050114205421.50341.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019f01c4fa90$d2b3f460$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Now David, > > You know that Grumman doesn't . . . > > j/k Bob, > > Jeff Actually, I do--but I just about never read it. Lack of time more than the fact that I doubt that it has much that would interest me. --Bob From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 09:23:06 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 06:23:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Guys In-Reply-To: <019f01c4fa90$d2b3f460$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050115142306.52739.qmail@web52606.mail.yahoo.com> I don't read it as often as you'd think. Sometimes I just stare at the screen and scratch my head, wondering, "Why *this* poem?" Jeff --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > Now David, > > > > You know that Grumman doesn't . . . > > > > j/k Bob, > > > > Jeff > > Actually, I do--but I just about never read it. > Lack of time more than the > fact that I doubt that it has much that would > interest me. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From grahamd at vbe.com Sat Jan 15 11:38:22 2005 From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:38:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Behind a Camel ad Message-ID: A book I've been enjoying lately is Stuart Dybek's *Streets in their Own Ink*. Yet another veteran poet who's just recently appeared on my radar--though I gather Dybek's better known as a novelist. Anyway, here's a sample: Mowing for Dennis Zacek A menial labor is reserved for the minority called boys: sun bull's-eyed on his back, he's dragged until he has to shove as the squealing blade rages into hummocks and chokes out dust. He's mowing an alley through ragweed and cornflowers in an overgrown valley behind a billboard. At a dollar below minimum wage, if they want him to devour the stunted wilderness that sprouts behind a Camel ad, he will because he's sure they don't remember where one can still find a real snake in this city. They don't recall, if they ever knew, the secret location of the junked backcountry of youth where sanctuaries of jackrabbits and songbirds survive along flyways of rusted tracks, and the twittering prairie, in view of downtown's smoggy range of spires, basks in summer behind the chain link of bankrupt factories. There, once, down by the Sanitary Canal, a fox like a four-legged fire flashed across his incredulous eyes, a fox trotting the edge of a marsh unmarked on any street map, three blocks from the thunder of semis on the Stevenson overpass, a limp rat dangling from its jaws. --Stuart Dybek. *Streets in Their Own Ink*. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2004. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at vbe.com grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 15 11:42:28 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:42:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Behind a Camel ad Message-ID: In a message dated 1/15/2005 11:36:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at vbe.com writes: > Stuart Dybek's *Streets in their Own > Ink*. Yet another veteran poet who's just recently appeared on my > radar--though I gather Dybek's better known as a novelist. > David, I recall an early book called _Brass Knuckles_, I believe. I remember enjoying the work and thinking it was a shame that he'd turned primarily fiction writing. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jan 15 11:45:51 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:45:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Behind a Camel ad References: Message-ID: <000d01c4fb21$ae0b86a0$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> I like this one. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:38 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Behind a Camel ad >A book I've been enjoying lately is Stuart Dybek's *Streets in their Own > Ink*. Yet another veteran poet who's just recently appeared on my > radar--though I gather Dybek's better known as a novelist. > > Anyway, here's a sample: > > > Mowing > > for Dennis Zacek > > A menial labor is reserved for the minority > called boys: sun bull's-eyed on his back, > he's dragged until he has to shove > as the squealing blade rages into hummocks > and chokes out dust. He's mowing an alley > through ragweed and cornflowers > in an overgrown valley behind a billboard. > At a dollar below minimum wage, > if they want him to devour the stunted wilderness > that sprouts behind a Camel ad, he will > because he's sure they don't remember > where one can still find a real snake > in this city. They don't recall, > if they ever knew, the secret location > of the junked backcountry of youth > where sanctuaries of jackrabbits > and songbirds survive along flyways > of rusted tracks, and the twittering prairie, > in view of downtown's smoggy range > of spires, basks in summer > behind the chain link of bankrupt factories. > There, once, down by the Sanitary Canal, > a fox like a four-legged fire > flashed across his incredulous eyes, > a fox trotting the edge of a marsh > unmarked on any street map, > three blocks from the thunder > of semis on the Stevenson overpass, > a limp rat dangling from its jaws. > > --Stuart Dybek. *Streets in Their Own Ink*. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, > 2004. > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at vbe.com > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From grahamd at vbe.com Sat Jan 15 12:00:22 2005 From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:00:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily (Bad Guys) In-Reply-To: <20050115142306.52739.qmail@web52606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: on 1/15/05 8:23 AM, Jeff Newberry at jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com wrote: > I don't read it as often as you'd think. Sometimes I > just stare at the screen and scratch my head, > wondering, "Why *this* poem?" > > Jeff True enough for me, too, and that's one indicator that Poetry Daily features a wider range of aesthetics than it's sometimes given credit for. Don Selby once told me that they regularly get email complaining about their selections, but what's interesting is that the complaints tend to run the gamut: "you publish too many formalist/ postmodern/ Iowa workshop/ academic/ street/ confessional/ anecdotal poems. . . ." As if the readers haven't noticed that they feature both Richard Wilbur and Fanny Howe, Bob Perelman and Ed Dorn. I also really like the fact that it's a site run by poetry lovers who aren't poets themselves: an endangered species? I've not studied the matter, but my impression from skimming the blurbs is that they probably feature more poets who are not academics than most mainstream journals do. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at vbe.com grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jan 15 12:02:58 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:02:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Charles Plymell, "At a Gas Station in Kansas" Message-ID: At a Gas Station in Kansas The branch of stream and law entwines lost rail to the stars and back again while the dandelion sits on a weed joyous supernal it sits on a weed A long ride over forgotten roads crisp kilowatts of radio alone in the night tracks on Vortex plains erased by gentle snow like upon the magic board I drew in school Before the radar screen longed for blind events likes towns alone in night of frost while snow and wind streaks across the pavement showing sudden ghosts of fabled lizards O Gypsy Moth around my lampshade why so dim the light beyond the door and the twisted trees reaching to the sky and down again into their own ring of years In a month the moon repeats its fundamental note involuntary stomachs drift to Venus she repeats hers and within the newborn yet another aspect opens Hungry wolves know the beginnings of snow home to unwind the mummy roll by roll a part of me, an edge I cannot peer beyond, a hidden angle, a side I cannot see In the corner the spider weaves haphazardly forgetting the first part of the spiral tired perhaps, of the trembling fly in a forgotten filling station in Kansas --Charles Plymell fr. *Neon Poems* [Syracuse, NY: Atom Mind Publications, 1970] and in *Forever Wider: Poems New and Selected: 1954-1984* [Metuchen, NJ: The Scarecrow Press, 1985] Hal Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jan 15 12:16:07 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:16:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Behind a Camel ad In-Reply-To: <000d01c4fb21$ae0b86a0$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 1/15/05 10:45 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > I like this one. > > Tad Richards ------------- Always a pleasure to please you, Tad. What's on YOUR bedside table at the moment? >> >> Mowing >> >> for Dennis Zacek >> >> A menial labor is reserved for the minority >> called boys: sun bull's-eyed on his back, >> he's dragged until he has to shove >> as the squealing blade rages into hummocks >> and chokes out dust. He's mowing an alley >> through ragweed and cornflowers >> in an overgrown valley behind a billboard. >> At a dollar below minimum wage, >> if they want him to devour the stunted wilderness >> that sprouts behind a Camel ad, he will >> because he's sure they don't remember >> where one can still find a real snake >> in this city. They don't recall, >> if they ever knew, the secret location >> of the junked backcountry of youth >> where sanctuaries of jackrabbits >> and songbirds survive along flyways >> of rusted tracks, and the twittering prairie, >> in view of downtown's smoggy range >> of spires, basks in summer >> behind the chain link of bankrupt factories. >> There, once, down by the Sanitary Canal, >> a fox like a four-legged fire >> flashed across his incredulous eyes, >> a fox trotting the edge of a marsh >> unmarked on any street map, >> three blocks from the thunder >> of semis on the Stevenson overpass, >> a limp rat dangling from its jaws. >> >> --Stuart Dybek. *Streets in Their Own Ink*. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, >> 2004. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 15 13:38:12 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:38:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily (Bad Guys) References: Message-ID: <004101c4fb31$5eb75920$4eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> I don't read it as often as you'd think. Sometimes I >> just stare at the screen and scratch my head, >> wondering, "Why *this* poem?" >> >> Jeff > > > True enough for me, too, and that's one indicator that Poetry Daily > features > a wider range of aesthetics than it's sometimes given credit for. Yup, they cover the full range of contemporary poetry from Wilbur to Ashbery--and even let an occasional language poem in. They're every bit as up-to-date as the Academy of American Poets. --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Sat Jan 15 13:54:54 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:54:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Behind a Camel ad References: Message-ID: <001201c4fb33$b5e2a590$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> I'm writing a piece on Donald Finkel, so revisiting him...always a pleasure. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 12:16 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Behind a Camel ad > on 1/15/05 10:45 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > >> I like this one. >> >> Tad Richards > > ------------- > > Always a pleasure to please you, Tad. What's on YOUR bedside table at the > moment? > > > >>> >>> Mowing >>> >>> for Dennis Zacek >>> >>> A menial labor is reserved for the minority >>> called boys: sun bull's-eyed on his back, >>> he's dragged until he has to shove >>> as the squealing blade rages into hummocks >>> and chokes out dust. He's mowing an alley >>> through ragweed and cornflowers >>> in an overgrown valley behind a billboard. >>> At a dollar below minimum wage, >>> if they want him to devour the stunted wilderness >>> that sprouts behind a Camel ad, he will >>> because he's sure they don't remember >>> where one can still find a real snake >>> in this city. They don't recall, >>> if they ever knew, the secret location >>> of the junked backcountry of youth >>> where sanctuaries of jackrabbits >>> and songbirds survive along flyways >>> of rusted tracks, and the twittering prairie, >>> in view of downtown's smoggy range >>> of spires, basks in summer >>> behind the chain link of bankrupt factories. >>> There, once, down by the Sanitary Canal, >>> a fox like a four-legged fire >>> flashed across his incredulous eyes, >>> a fox trotting the edge of a marsh >>> unmarked on any street map, >>> three blocks from the thunder >>> of semis on the Stevenson overpass, >>> a limp rat dangling from its jaws. >>> >>> --Stuart Dybek. *Streets in Their Own Ink*. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, >>> 2004. > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 15 17:23:45 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:23:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Academy of American Poets Almanac Message-ID: Have you seen these daily mini-essay emtries on the AAP website? Yesterday's (1/14) was on the Fallacy of the Prose Poem. Last Sunday's was by Ravi Shankar, In Praise of Abstraction. Finnegan http://www.poets.org/almanac/index.cfm?45442B782B5F425D047262414658185620310D7 40873741140315B7D5748097401 In a message dated 1/11/2005 12:13:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, ShankarR at mail.ccsu.edu writes: > See on January 9th > > Bonne Ann?e! > > -RS > > *************** > Ravi Shankar > Poet-in-Residence > Assistant Professor > CCSU - English Dept. > 860-832-2766 > shankarr at ccsu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From webmaster at newhampshirereview.com Sun Jan 16 18:12:55 2005 From: webmaster at newhampshirereview.com (Webmaster, New Hampshire Review) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:12:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Hampshire Review - Call for Submissions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001301c4fc20$e9eb9520$6601a8c0@piiie500> Call for Submissions The New Hampshire Review is seeking poets, artists, political essayists, and book reviewers to help launch our new quarterly journal of poetry and politics. We are looking for work which contemplates the human condition in fresh, meaningful, and interesting ways. Submissions should aim to reach an intelligent, well-read audience. Our guidelines are available at: http://www.newhampshirereview.com/submission_guidelines.htm We invite poets and publishers who would like their books to be considered for review to send materials to the Review Editor at P.O. Box 323, Nashua, NH 03061-0322. If you would like to be notified by email when the first issue is available, please join our mailing list at: http://www.newhampshirereview.com/mailinglist.htm We look forward to receiving your submissions! Virginia M. Heatter Editor-in-Chief Seth D. Abramson Poetry & Politics Editor The New Hampshire Review P.O. Box 323 Nashua, NH 03061-0322 www.newhampshirereview.com From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 16 20:04:01 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:04:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's Lifelong Ode to the Working Class Message-ID: <145.3d4cca7c.2f1c6901@aol.com> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4286683 review of Levine's new book _Breath_ punctuated by jazz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 16 20:05:53 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:05:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Open Letter from Sam Hamill Message-ID: <146.3c8650bc.2f1c6971@aol.com> An Open Letter from Sam Hamill New Years Day, 2005 Dear Friends: The war drags on. Fallujah has been destroyed in order to save it, shades of Vietnam. A man who presented the argument in favor of ignoring the Geneva accords, a man who would authorize torture, is now our Attorney General. More than 100,000 Iraqi civilians dead, many times more wounded, homeless? And American soldiers who have served their tours of duty are being post facto drafted to remain in combat. We can look forward to Bush?s new secretary of state continuing to? who knows what? And there will be supreme and other high court appointments, and of course a Patriot Act II, with attendant incursions into our constitutional rights. Tax cuts for the rich? Permanent. The environment? The worst policies in our history. What a ghastly litany. Four more years, indeed. A number of organizations are encouraging January 20 demonstrations and teach-ins and contra-Bush celebrations around the world. I hope you will all join me in joining them. Check out and please post any events scheduled for that day. The more we can reach out and work with other organizations, the broader the audience for poetry and the broader our message of peace. We?d like to post a list of host organizations working in cooperation with Poets Against the War to make that day memorable. As of January 1st, I am leaving Copper Canyon Press. Over the coming months, I will devote a lot more time to working with PAW board members to build a sound infrastructure and strengthen our organization. Like kindred organizations in countries around the world, we have reminded millions of people of the noble traditions of poetry, of its role in every culture. I have seen time and again tears of gratitude in the eyes of the Italians, French, Lithuanians, etc, and have received innumerable messages of hope, support and kinship from all over the world. These people are grateful to be reminded that (at least) half of the U.S. objects to the direction this country?s taken, and that we are eager to listen to and work cooperatively with them so that all of our voices (and various positions) may be heard while we stand together. In the ecology of the soul, thrift is ruinous. We look forward to a productive new year filled with mindful actions, generosity of spirit, heartfelt compassion, and of course a lot of good poetry. This winter solstice I will close with a handful of poems by Soufie, who is 12 years old and lives in Tehran and likes haiku and wants to learn Japanese and live in Japan. The translations are by the Iranian editor Ali Samavati (with a little help from me). Namaste. Sam Hamill poetsagainstthewar.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Soufie?s poems (no titles): How poor are the children! All the time, they have to learn they have to be careful not to be blamed and they have to fear God?s punishment Even on Fridays when nobody works children have to work they have so much to do that they don?t realize when they are dreaming or when they are awake Lucky are the trees who have nothing to do but to turn yellow and green At night, they are not afraid of the dark They don?t die like grandfathers and they have many good friends like the wind, rain and sunshine And a friend like the dew who always puts its head on the shoulder of their leaves. Sometimes I get a chocolate and sometimes I get a beating and I never know when I?m asleep or awake But now I?m very depressed And I wish I were like angels or I didn?t exist at all then I wouldn?t always need to say "Hello." *** I wish we would never lose each other but could be lost in one another. *** In children?s eyes a park is nothing but a green lawn. In old men?s eyes a park is nothing but a few yellow benches. Children should run in the parks so the trees would not see the canes and leaves would not fall from their eyes. *** God, with all his light, walks in the darkness! On the trail of his shoes, trees grow. And on the trail of his thoughts, autumn appears. *** On the streets You see eyes with clouds inside of wrinkled faces And the faces of the mournful are full of heavenly tears. And those black, heartless clothes that have nothing to do with poems. *** -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Publish your poem against the war. Since August 1st, over a thousand new antiwar poems have been added to the Poets Against the War web site. Go to http://poetsagainstthewar.org/submitpoem.asp. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To change the email address we use to send you news or announcements about PAW, or to give us any additional info, please go to http://poetsagainstthewar.org/authoredit.asp. >> To unsubscribe: If you'd rather not receive any more email from us, please go to http://poetsagainstthewar.org/changesubscription.asp. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From debra at debradicembre.com Sun Jan 16 21:01:49 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:01:49 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's Lifelong Ode to the Working Class References: <145.3d4cca7c.2f1c6901@aol.com> Message-ID: <00dd01c4fc38$83c57320$0301010a@galaxy> Wow..thankyou very much for this link. Fantastic. DD ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's Lifelong Ode to the Working Class http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4286683 review of Levine's new book _Breath_ punctuated by jazz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Jan 17 09:07:16 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:07:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Hilda Morley (?), "Xmas" Message-ID: Xmas Down Fifth Avenue in a taxi, 2 weeks before Xmas, my heart is gone, gone away, far away There are stars, lights, illuminated frosting all over the fronts of buildings, everything is an offering ( for us, to buy ) But even alone now, a rising excitement possesses me, exhilaration, warmth & I can remember when it was all celebration for us, both of us Jewish but an excitement possessed us, those years of your health, years of our striding about the city together choosing, thinking: a gift for this one or that one & you spent hours inventing red & green scribbles to cover your cards with: declarations [of] love & joy in friendship & branches of green & holly were hung in the house & what I miss now, the sound of your voice your laughter [love from Hilda December 25, 1982] Note: A day or two ago, Lynda and I visited (once again) the Strand, over on Broadway and came home lugging books. In one of mine (*Ironwood* 20, found on one of the outdoor $1 shelves and purchased to replace my long-lost copy) was a twice-folded sheet of 8 1/2 x 11 paper upon which the poem above was typed, the bracketed portions written in in ink. At the top center of the page is a piece of scotch tape that looks like it may have been used to hang the poem up somewhere, since there's nothing at the bottom of the page to suggest it was used as a seal. At the bottom left of the inside cover of the magazine, written in ink, is "Christmas 1982" over "NYC," and in the right- hand bottom corner the name Judy Epstein. I don't know if this poem was ever published, but it might be one of a series of elegies Morley wrote for her husband Stefan Wolpe, who had died in 1972. Any information would be appreciated. 1/17/05 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From tad at opus40.org Mon Jan 17 09:28:32 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:28:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's Lifelong Ode to the Working Class References: <145.3d4cca7c.2f1c6901@aol.com> Message-ID: <003401c4fca0$d45ae4b0$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> You know, this is good stuff, all of it. So many of us in po-biz enjoy reviling Levine, but he's produced an exceptional body of work, and if he no longer surprises every time out of the box, he's still capable of surprising at moments, which is more than most people do. And I liked the NPR audio essay. I like to know that there are people out there talking about poets, and poetry, from a non-po-biz perspective, and to a non-po-biz audience. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 8:04 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's Lifelong Ode to the Working Class http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4286683 review of Levine's new book _Breath_ punctuated by jazz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 17 10:55:16 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:55:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] WebRadio Project, Call for Recordings Message-ID: In a message dated 1/17/2005 9:29:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: And I liked the NPR audio essay. I like to know that there are people out there talking about poets, and poetry, from a non-po-biz perspective, and to a non-po-biz audience Speaking of poetry (& fiction) and audio, I'm working with someone who interested in launching a web-radio station that will feature poetry, fiction, interviews, book reviews, commentary, etc. Right now we are starting the process of getting content/programs: 1) Ideal recordings are already edited programs that can be easily slotted into half-hour or hour segments of a program schedule. For example: A friend of mine had a interview series in the 80s and 90s called Poems To A Listener. It's all in cassette form and will require some limited editing to get rid of extraneous or dated announcements, etc. 2) Secondarily we'd like to get tapes from Reading Series. Again, best material will have already gone through some editing, but it can be old stuff that might be lying around in a shoebox or attic. For example, a friend of mine used to run the Aspen Writers Conference and he sent me a trove of material: readings; lectures; panel discussion. In time, I'll convert all his material from cassette to MP3, and he'll get the back the material. In exchange, I can edit and package the material for the webradio broadcast as I see fit. Obviously we'll attempt to get the featured poet/writer's permission before streaming out onto the web. 3) Lastly, If you have any interest in producing a series of half-hour or one-hour shows for the webradio, we'd like to hear from you. Note: It doesn't have to be contemporary material: The English Sonnet; Milton and Paradise Lost; 19th Century Women's Novels, etc., whatever strikes your fancy or interests you. Maybe you spent a good deal of time on a lecture series for a class at some point, and feel you could easily record this material into half-hour or hour segments. Maybe you write regular book reviews, and could do 10/15 minute segments with them. Or combine 3 or 4 into a half-hour program. You may backchannel me if you'd like. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Jan 17 10:57:13 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:57:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] William Stafford Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE8CD@URANIUM.ripon.college> A lift of the glass to the shade of William Stafford on his birthday. Accountability Cold nights outside the taverns in Wyoming pickups and big semis lounge idling, letting their haunches twitch now and then in gusts of powder snow, their owners inside for hours, forgetting as well as they can the miles, the circling plains, the still town that connects to nothing but cold and space and a few stray ribbons of pavement, icy guides to nothing but bigger towns and other taverns that glitter and wait: Denver, Cheyenne. Hibernating in the library of the school on the hill a few pieces by Thomas Aquinas or Saint Teresa and the fragmentary explorations of people like Alfred North Whitehead crouch and wait amid research folders on energy and military recruitment posters glimpsed by the hard stars. The school bus by the door, a yellow mound, clangs open and shut as the wind finds a loose door and worries it all night, letting the hollow students count off and break up and blow away over the frozen ground. --William Stafford ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier at localnet.com Mon Jan 17 11:37:53 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:37:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WebRadio Project, Call for Recordings References: Message-ID: <00ef01c4fcb2$e480efd0$0adef63f@Helen> Sounds interesting and I work with a local reading series. We've have video taped readings for the past 20 years - I don't know if they can be converted, but we've got Corso, Wm. Matthews, Carl Dennis, just to name a few. Let me know. Helen Ruggieri ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 10:55 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] WebRadio Project, Call for Recordings In a message dated 1/17/2005 9:29:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: And I liked the NPR audio essay. I like to know that there are people out there talking about poets, and poetry, from a non-po-biz perspective, and to a non-po-biz audience Speaking of poetry (& fiction) and audio, I'm working with someone who interested in launching a web-radio station that will feature poetry, fiction, interviews, book reviews, commentary, etc. Right now we are starting the process of getting content/programs: 1) Ideal recordings are already edited programs that can be easily slotted into half-hour or hour segments of a program schedule. For example: A friend of mine had a interview series in the 80s and 90s called Poems To A Listener. It's all in cassette form and will require some limited editing to get rid of extraneous or dated announcements, etc. 2) Secondarily we'd like to get tapes from Reading Series. Again, best material will have already gone through some editing, but it can be old stuff that might be lying around in a shoebox or attic. For example, a friend of mine used to run the Aspen Writers Conference and he sent me a trove of material: readings; lectures; panel discussion. In time, I'll convert all his material from cassette to MP3, and he'll get the back the material. In exchange, I can edit and package the material for the webradio broadcast as I see fit. Obviously we'll attempt to get the featured poet/writer's permission before streaming out onto the web. 3) Lastly, If you have any interest in producing a series of half-hour or one-hour shows for the webradio, we'd like to hear from you. Note: It doesn't have to be contemporary material: The English Sonnet; Milton and Paradise Lost; 19th Century Women's Novels, etc., whatever strikes your fancy or interests you. Maybe you spent a good deal of time on a lecture series for a class at some point, and feel you could easily record this material into half-hour or hour segments. Maybe you write regular book reviews, and could do 10/15 minute segments with them. Or combine 3 or 4 into a half-hour program. You may backchannel me if you'd like. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ershadmz at yahoo.com Mon Jan 17 11:55:18 2005 From: ershadmz at yahoo.com (ershad mazumder) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:55:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mountain And Ocean Message-ID: <20050117165518.36343.qmail@web60309.mail.yahoo.com> I am drowing in thr deep ocean of loneliness Waves are graning tio saperate its soul >From thr eartly body full of greed and lust. Every body visits thr ocean But do not undrftand thr language of ovean. I understand the language of the ovean When I am in darkness Some body whispers Of dearesr my poeople God has made me ocean But I wanted to be a mountan Touching thr blue sky. I wanted to be a partner of sun Touching thrblue sky I wanted to be partner of the sun But my drstiny took me To the bottom of the earth,Known as ocean of deep dow *copyright bBy Ershad Mazumderm --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 17 15:04:11 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:04:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] 92nd Street Y, Upcoming Readings Message-ID: http://www.92y.org/shop/category.asp?catalog=92y_catalog&category=Programs&cat egory=Events&category=Literary+Readings+and+Performances&category=Main+Reading +Series check out the listing at the bottom for Jan 31st... Boland & Olds have sold out the house. There's some evidenceof an audience for poetry, at least in NYC. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jan 17 15:19:30 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:19:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 92nd Street Y, Upcoming Readings References: Message-ID: <002301c4fcd1$d9e8e5e0$e38d3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> All right! Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 9:04 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] 92nd Street Y, Upcoming Readings http://www.92y.org/shop/category.asp?catalog=92y_catalog&category=Programs&category=Events&category=Literary+Readings+and+Performances&category=Main+Reading+Series check out the listing at the bottom for Jan 31st... Boland & Olds have sold out the house. There's some evidenceof an audience for poetry, at least in NYC. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ershadmz at yahoo.com Mon Jan 17 23:50:53 2005 From: ershadmz at yahoo.com (ershad mazumder) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 04:50:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mountain and Ocean Message-ID: <20050118045053.68655.qmail@web60307.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends Thank you very much for your Newsletter.Are you planning to publish my poems in your website? What will happen to Mountain and Ocean? Have a nice time . With great love and respect. Ershad Mazumder --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 18 08:13:43 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:13:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Eugenio Montale, a no-frills poet Message-ID: <1ea.345553a3.2f1e6587@aol.com> http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2005/1/18/features/9897789& sec=features Eugenio Montale, a no-frills poet By THOR KAH HOONG DUE to a tiny academic hiccup, which is not terribly exciting to get into, Italian poet Eugenio Montale (winner of the Nobel in 1975) has been a skeleton of bad scholarship hanging in my closet for close to 30 years. Only now am I making a small instalment on my dues to him. Only now am I really beginning to read him, in new translations of his poems by Jonathan Galassi (Eugenio Montale: Collected Poems 1920-1954, Farrar, Strauss & Giroux, 1997). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 18 08:13:54 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:13:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt poems clinch Eliot award Message-ID: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1392586,00.html Deeply felt poems clinch Eliot award John Ezard Tuesday January 18, 2005 The Guardian Reel by George Szirtes: "a brilliantly virtuosic collection of deeply felt poems" George Szirtes, who mastered English after being brought to Britain from Hungary at the age of eight, last night won a leading British poetry prize. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinstannard at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 18 12:13:01 2005 From: martinstannard at ntlworld.com (Martin Stannard) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:13:01 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Deeply felt poems clinch Eliot Award. Message-ID: <004001c4fd80$f8399120$f3a70252@SPARKLE100> In this connection, people might like to look at http://exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/ where this is a topic, of sorts. Regards, Martin Stannard Home Page: http://martinstannard.blogspot.com Blog (well, much more of an e-zine these days): http://exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/ "Do fish know what water is?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Jan 18 17:03:05 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:03:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eugenio Montale, a no-frills poet References: <1ea.345553a3.2f1e6587@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d501c4fda9$7cfbe5c0$daa83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> I find this interesting, from the article signaled by James Finnegan That's how he refers to art - products and objects. In his lecture, Montale is scathing of modern arts and times: "Evidently the arts...are becoming more democratic in the worst sense of the word. Art is the production of objects for consumption, to be used and discarded.... "It alarms me that a sort of general Doomsday atmosphere accompanies an ever more widespread comfort, that well-being (there where it exists, that is in limited areas of the world) has the livid features of desperation. Against the dark background of this contemporary civilisation of well-being, even the arts tend to mingle, to lose their identity. Mass communication, radio, and especially television, have attempted, not without success, to annihilate every possibility of solitude and reflection. Time becomes more rapid, works of a few years ago seem 'dated' and the need the artist has to be listened to sooner or later becomes a spasmodic need of the topical, of the immediate. Whence the new art of our time which is the spectacle.. In such a landscape of hysterical exhibitionism what can the place of poetry, the most discrete of arts, be?" Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome "It is not the fear of madness which will oblige us to leave the flag of imagination furled" Andr? Breton, Manifestes du Surr?alisme ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:13 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Eugenio Montale, a no-frills poet http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2005/1/18/features/9897789&sec=features Eugenio Montale, a no-frills poet By THOR KAH HOONG DUE to a tiny academic hiccup, which is not terribly exciting to get into, Italian poet Eugenio Montale (winner of the Nobel in 1975) has been a skeleton of bad scholarship hanging in my closet for close to 30 years. Only now am I making a small instalment on my dues to him. Only now am I really beginning to read him, in new translations of his poems by Jonathan Galassi (Eugenio Montale: Collected Poems 1920-1954, Farrar, Strauss & Giroux, 1997). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Jan 18 17:09:27 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:09:27 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt poems clinch Eliot award References: Message-ID: <00e801c4fdaa$60cb7270$daa83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Thank you for this James. Even if it was not as it should have been, in the sense that Carol Rumens withdrew from the panel of judges, I am happy to find her here, she is one of my chosen for the Corner, http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=79 and as they say on the Guardian, a "respected poet", and a very nice lady - I would like to add. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:13 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt poems clinch Eliot award http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1392586,00.html Deeply felt poems clinch Eliot award John Ezard Tuesday January 18, 2005 The Guardian Reel by George Szirtes: "a brilliantly virtuosic collection of deeply felt poems" George Szirtes, who mastered English after being brought to Britain from Hungary at the age of eight, last night won a leading British poetry prize. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Jan 18 17:38:14 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:38:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Pics by Rust Message-ID: <010a01c4fdae$66dd9130$daa83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> There are some new pics on Anita Rust's Blog, who is Paula, as a matter of fact: http://anitarust.blogspot.com/ Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome the crime - crushing Criminologist Sherlock Jr. / Buster Keaton -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 18 20:02:38 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:02:38 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt poems clinch Eliot award Message-ID: <197.36828878.2f1f0bae@aol.com> In a message dated 1/18/2005 5:10:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: > Thank you for this James. Even if it was not as it should have been, in the > sense that Carol Rumens withdrew from the panel of judges, I am happy to > find her here, she is one of my chosen for the Corner, > Why did she withdraw, Anny? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jan 19 01:53:40 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:53:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt poems clinch Eliot award References: <197.36828878.2f1f0bae@aol.com> Message-ID: <003601c4fdf3$9c34e910$40ee3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt poems clinch Eliot award In a message dated 1/18/2005 5:10:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: Thank you for this James. Even if it was not as it should have been, in the sense that Carol Rumens withdrew from the panel of judges, I am happy to find her here, she is one of my chosen for the Corner, Why did she withdraw, Anny? Finnegan This is what the article says: One of three judges - the respected poet Carol Rumens - withdrew from the process, apparently protesting that her fellow poet Tom Paulin was not eligible to be considered for the prize because too few poems in his entry were new. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinstannard at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 19 12:27:50 2005 From: martinstannard at ntlworld.com (Martin Stannard) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:27:50 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt etc Message-ID: <001a01c4fe4c$34cfcde0$f3a70252@SPARKLE100> Dear all, Sitting here in a cold England, I think I have to say that hearing names like Tom Paulin, Carol Rumens, George Szirtes etc mentioned as if they are the higher echelons of British poetry is more than disheartening. Anny, I have no doubt that Carol Rumens is a very nice person. We read together at a Festival here in 2003, and she smiled at me and said Hello. That was nice. One of my friends at the reading squirmed in physical and mental distress during her very brief and, I have to say, lifeless reading. I don't want to cause offence to anyone (although I probably already have) but Rumens shouldn't even have been on the panel --her real concern was that one of her friends was ruled as inelegible, and it's the fact that "friends" administer these ridiculous prizes which is the real cause for concern. There's lots of great, exciting, interesting, innovative, exhilarating (choose your adjective) poetry being written in the UK. The poets mentioned here, and lots of their friends, are not the people writing it. Sorry and all that, but they're not. Martin Stannard Home Page: http://martinstannard.blogspot.com Blog (well, much more of an e-zine these days): http://exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/ "Do fish know what water is?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jan 19 12:33:41 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:33:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt etc Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE8E0@URANIUM.ripon.college> Martin, Fascinating to have a little glimpse into a poetry world I don't know very well at all. But also a little frustrating, since I haven't read much of the work in question. Many of these poets are just names to me. Any chance you might post a poem or two, as either good/bad examples, by your lights? And, what do you think of the Paterson/Simic anthology *New British Poetry*? I know it's attracted some pretty fierce criticism. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Martin Stannard > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:27 AM > To: New Poetry > Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt etc > > <> > Dear all, > > Sitting here in a cold England, I think I have to say that hearing names like Tom Paulin, Carol Rumens, George Szirtes etc mentioned as if they are the higher echelons of British poetry is more than disheartening. > > Anny, I have no doubt that Carol Rumens is a very nice person. We read together at a Festival here in 2003, and she smiled at me and said Hello. That was nice. One of my friends at the reading squirmed in physical and mental distress during her very brief and, I have to say, lifeless reading. I don't want to cause offence to anyone (although I probably already have) but Rumens shouldn't even have been on the panel --her real concern was that one of her friends was ruled as inelegible, and it's the fact that "friends" administer these ridiculous prizes which is the real cause for concern. > > There's lots of great, exciting, interesting, innovative, exhilarating (choose your adjective) poetry being written in the UK. The poets mentioned here, and lots of their friends, are not the people writing it. Sorry and all that, but they're not. > > > Martin Stannard > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ershadmz at yahoo.com Wed Jan 19 12:54:54 2005 From: ershadmz at yahoo.com (ershad mazumder) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:54:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Submission of poetry Message-ID: <20050119175454.79876.qmail@web60309.mail.yahoo.com> Name of the poet: Ershad Mazumder Location : Dhaka, Bangladesh e.mail: ershadmz at yahoo.com Title of the Poem: Piece of Soul __________________________ Every poem is a piece of soul I compose them wiyh my blood And every piece speaks in your admiration. My soul bleeds and bleeds And I compose every line in your name I do not forget even for a moment Still why do you say You will punish me for my human failure Yes burn me,make me dust Every dot of dust will recite your name. *Copyright By ; Ershad mazumder --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jan 19 12:55:13 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:55:13 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt etc References: <001a01c4fe4c$34cfcde0$f3a70252@SPARKLE100> Message-ID: <00de01c4fe50$06eb76f0$052ab750@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi Martin, point is she didn't smile to me, I still consider her a good writer, I respect her, am in contact with a great student of hers, Nessa O'Mahony: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=71 and I value what she says and the way she says it. Here's again her link to the Corner for those who skipped it before: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=79 It does not mean that I do not like what you write, there is no connection for me. Take care, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin Stannard To: New Poetry Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:27 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt etc Dear all, Sitting here in a cold England, I think I have to say that hearing names like Tom Paulin, Carol Rumens, George Szirtes etc mentioned as if they are the higher echelons of British poetry is more than disheartening. Anny, I have no doubt that Carol Rumens is a very nice person. We read together at a Festival here in 2003, and she smiled at me and said Hello. That was nice. One of my friends at the reading squirmed in physical and mental distress during her very brief and, I have to say, lifeless reading. I don't want to cause offence to anyone (although I probably already have) but Rumens shouldn't even have been on the panel --her real concern was that one of her friends was ruled as inelegible, and it's the fact that "friends" administer these ridiculous prizes which is the real cause for concern. There's lots of great, exciting, interesting, innovative, exhilarating (choose your adjective) poetry being written in the UK. The poets mentioned here, and lots of their friends, are not the people writing it. Sorry and all that, but they're not. Martin Stannard Home Page: http://martinstannard.blogspot.com Blog (well, much more of an e-zine these days): http://exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/ "Do fish know what water is?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 19 14:45:06 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:45:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply felt etc Message-ID: <15c.4827bb7a.2f2012c2@aol.com> In a message dated 1/19/2005 12:28:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, martinstannard at ntlworld.com writes: There's lots of great, exciting, interesting, innovative, exhilarating (choose your adjective) poetry being written in the UK. The poets mentioned here, and lots of their friends, are not the people writing it. Sorry and all that, but they're not. Martin Stannard Paulin is a name registers with me; the other two are new. Martin, what you've said sounds like an assertion of taste. Are you talking about the mainstream v. the so-called innovative writers? Or you talking about a generational difference that makes them too old school? Or are is this just a threesome of poor poets in a more or less provable sense? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 19 16:35:14 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:35:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Message-ID: <20050119213514.91239.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com> A question for those who teach at the university/college level (or perhaps have taught or perhaps have thought about teaching or perhaps have thought about how to teach or perhaps . . . ): When teaching an entire collection of poetry, do you go through the book w/ the students poem by poem? Or, do you just hit "highlights" throughout the collection? I'm not talking about a "Collected So and So" or "Selected So and So." I mean a real collection--published as a book. I'm not sure why this question is bothering me. When I teach a novel, I hit what I think is important, the major characters, major plot points, major symbols/metaphors etc. For some reason, this doesn't feel right in my mind. I have this need to go over every single poem, line by line--which is generally how I teach a poem anyway, line by line (but not necessarily linearly). I suppose when I read a new collection of poems, I rarely read the entire thing at once. I usually flip around, getting a sense of the overall book. When I read David Mason's new book, *Arrivals,* I read the central poem, "The Collector's Tale," first because it was the one I was familiar with. But as I skipped around the book, I found all sorts of gems, including his translation of Cavafy's "The City." I wonder if I should teach the book in this way--find a "signature" poem that highlights the main issues in the text and work from that? I won't mention the title of the book nor the author just yet. I'm talking generally here, not specifically. Thoughts? Thanks for your comments. Jeff Newberry ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From bentley at midcoast.com Wed Jan 19 16:59:23 2005 From: bentley at midcoast.com (Bentley) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:59:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry References: <20050119213514.91239.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006401c4fe72$23263590$07e6950c@S0028976576> I teach at the university level, but generally not poetry (philosophy and women's studies are my academic forte). That caveat being said, I would rather go line by line in a close analysis of some poems instead of covering the whole collection. I can't imagine that a close analysis could be done with justice in one term of a whole collection of poetry. Yet, I would still assign the entire collection, giving the students the option to comment and write on poems not covered. Indeed, I would require them to write on something not covered if they are well-prepared students. Also, if the entire book is assigned, you can also discuss the flow of the book as a whole towards the end of covering the book. In trying to put together my own pieces, this is where I personally have the greatest difficulty. Best, Bentley Davis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Newberry" To: "Poetry News and Reviews" Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:35 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry >A question for those who teach at the > university/college level (or perhaps have taught or > perhaps have thought about teaching or perhaps have > thought about how to teach or perhaps . . . ): > > When teaching an entire collection of poetry, do you > go through the book w/ the students poem by poem? Or, > do you just hit "highlights" throughout the > collection? I'm not talking about a "Collected So and > So" or "Selected So and So." I mean a real > collection--published as a book. > > I'm not sure why this question is bothering me. When > I teach a novel, I hit what I think is important, the > major characters, major plot points, major > symbols/metaphors etc. For some reason, this doesn't > feel right in my mind. I have this need to go over > every single poem, line by line--which is generally > how I teach a poem anyway, line by line (but not > necessarily linearly). > > I suppose when I read a new collection of poems, I > rarely read the entire thing at once. I usually flip > around, getting a sense of the overall book. When I > read David Mason's new book, *Arrivals,* I read the > central poem, "The Collector's Tale," first because it > was the one I was familiar with. But as I skipped > around the book, I found all sorts of gems, including > his translation of Cavafy's "The City." I wonder if I > should teach the book in this way--find a "signature" > poem that highlights the main issues in the text and > work from that? > > I won't mention the title of the book nor the author > just yet. I'm talking generally here, not > specifically. > > Thoughts? > > Thanks for your comments. > > Jeff Newberry > > ===== > Jeff Newberry > > "Sometimes it's not so easy, > especially when your only friend > talks, sees, looks and feels like you, > and you do just the same as him." > --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo! > http://my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From MillB at aol.com Wed Jan 19 17:56:29 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:56:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Message-ID: <11.3d171cc0.2f203f9d@aol.com> Jeff, With a collection of poetry, I like to "talk to" the volume as a whole, first. As someone else on this list said, the flow, the choices of subject matter, which poems are grouped together, the theme of the book, etc. As a demonstration in front of the class, I would explicate one or two poems. If possible, I would select the strongest poems to show the class, then in the hopes of divide and conquer, in the past, I have assigned individual poems to groups or students. They might select which poems they want to explore further, or in small groups, I assign one poem to each group. After that, they either write an explication paper and/or make a presentation to the class. Then we re-group. If applicable, I may share book reviews or critical articles about the author...Hope this helps. In the same vein, Teaching Poetry, I received a query about teaching for a program called PEN in the classroom (poetry in inner city schools) and would like to hear from others on this list who have participated in PEN activities. Does anyone have any suggestions? ideas? Things to watch out for? Advice for me? Thanks in advance! Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 19 20:30:12 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:30:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Nation Review: Difficult Loves by JOHN PALATTELLA Message-ID: http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20041004&s=palattella [from the October 4, 2004 issue] Difficult Loves by JOHN PALATTELLA Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture by Dana Gioia The Resistance to Poetry by James Longenbach A Defense of Ardor by Adam Zagajewski; Clare Cavanagh, trans. Coin of the Realm: Essays on the Life and Art of Poetry by Carl Phillips -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jan 20 08:39:50 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:39:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Wright, "A Lament for the Martyrs" Message-ID: A Lament for the Martyrs I am sitting in an outdoor cafe across the street from the Coliseum. The noon is so brilliant that I have to wear my dark glasses. You would think a Roman noon could lay even the Coliseum wide open. But darknesses still foul the place and its hateful grandeur. The Roman Chamber of Commerce and Betelgueze in combine could gut the Coliseum by day or by night till the ghost of Mussolini and the ghost of God turned blue in the face, and light wouldn't mean a thing in that darkness. Cities are times of day. Once Rome was noon. Do you get me? To take a slow lazy walk with Quintus Horatius Flaccus at four o'clock in the night was to become light. If you don't believe me, I offer you a method of scientific verification. I lay you eight to five that you will go blind if you take a walk at high noon with the President of the United States. I love my country for it's light. I love Rome because Horace lived there. I am afraid of the dark. I am game to live with intelligent sinners. Sometimes these days the Romans say that whatever the Barbarians left behind was later sacked and raped by the Barberinis, the noble family who needed the remnant marble for their country palaces. I find them fair enough for me. When I was a boy, the mayors of five towns in the Ohio River Valley solved the practical problems of prohibition by picking the purest and most perfect bootlegger between Pittsburgh and Cincinnati to become Chairman of the Committee for Liquor Control. I think it would be wicked for me to wonder what the five mayors did with their cut in private. All I know is that within a year after Milber s public appointment to a legal office, a symphony orchestra mysteriously appeared in one town, two spacious football stadiums appeared in two other towns, the madame of the cathouse in Wheeling was appointed a dollar-a-year man by the Federal Government, and I lost an essay-contest whose subject was the life and work of William Dean Howells, an American author who was born in Martins Ferry, Ohio, for Christ's sake, and whose books I had never even heard of, much less read. (As I look back over the shadows of the years, I confess that I have read one of his novels. I like him. He was a good friend of Mark Twain.) But right now the Roman noon is so brilliant that it hurts my eyes. ! I sip my cappuchino at a wobbly sidewalk table and ponder the antiquities of my own childhood: the beautiful river, that black ditch of horror; and the streetcars. Where have they gone now, with their wicker seats that seemed to rattle behind the dull headlights in the slow dusk, in summer where everything in Ohio ran down and yet never quite stopped? Now, the Romans and the discovered Americans stroll blinded in the Coliseum, deaf to the shadows the place never loses, even at noon in Rome, that was for a little while one of the few noons. Some archaeologist gouged out the smooth dust floor of the Coliseum to make it clean. The floor now is a careful revelation. It is an intricate and intelligent series of ditches, and the sun cannot reach them. They are the shadows of starved people who did not even want to die. They were not even Jews. There is no way to get rid of the shadows of human beings who could find God only in that last welcome of the creation, the maws of tortured animals. Is that last best surest way to heaven the throat of the hungry? If it is, God is very beautiful, if not very bright. Who are the hungry? What color is a hungry shadow? Even the noon sunlight in the Coliseum is the golden shadow of a starved lion, the most beautiful of God's creatures except maybe horses. --James Wright in *Unmuzzled Ox*, Vol. IV, No. 1, 1976 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Jan 20 10:23:37 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:23:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Are those really Congressmen? Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE8E7@URANIUM.ripon.college> TO THE STATES To Identify the 16th, 17th, or 18th Presidentiad. Why reclining, interrogating? why myself and all drowsing? What deepening twilight -- scum floating atop of the waters, Who are they as bats and night-dogs askant in the capitol? What a filthy Presidentiad! (O South, your torrid suns! O North, your arctic freezings!) Are those really Congressmen? are those the great Judges? is that the President? Then I will sleep awhile yet, for I see that these States sleep, for reasons; (With gathering murk, with muttering thunder and lambent shoots we all duly awake, South, North, East, West, inland and seaboard, we will surely awake.) --Walt Whitman ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jan 20 11:37:40 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:37:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bush's Innoculation Day Message-ID: Today, in full view of millions, George W. Bush will be innoculated for his second term as president of the United States. If you pay close attention, you will see someone briefly whisper in his ear, giving him just a tiny little bit of bad news about Iraq, Iran, and/or the War on Terror that will prevent his coming down with news that is bad in a major way later on. Such innoculations, as we all know, don't necessarily provide total assurance that one will not catch the disease one is being innoculated against, as new strains are always arising, strains that are increasingly resistent to treatment. You probably remember Bush's being innoculated against bad news concerning the attack on the World Trade Center back a few years ago, and, as we all know, he was fully immunized against bad news stemming from that particular tragedy, and, in fact, managed to turn it to his advantage. Thus, Pres. Bush will today be hoping for another successful immunization, as well as a good page in future history books. Hal You Are Not Authorized to View This Page Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 20 13:03:01 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:03:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Subj: Register for AWP's 2005 Conference & Conference Message-ID: <1de.3308526f.2f214c55@aol.com> Subj: Register for AWP's 2005 Conference & Conference Program Preview Date: 1/20/2005 12:56:15 PM Eastern Standard Time From: awpconf at gmu.edu Dear Friend, The deadline to pre-register for AWP's 2005 Conference and Bookfair is approaching. In order to receive the reduced pre-registration rates you must register by February 20, 2005. Please take advantage of AWP's low pre-registration rates today! To register, simply visit our secure online registration site: . You may also download a registration form or register by telephone at (703) 993-4301. AWP's 2005 Conference & Bookfair in Vancouver, British Columbia, will be taking place March 30 - April 2, 2005, at the Hyatt Regency and Fairmont Hotel Vancouver. The 2005 AWP Conference will feature headline readings by W.S. Merwin, Anne Carson, Ursula K. Le Guin, Michael Ondaatje, and many others, along with hundreds of panels, roundtables and workshops. To preview AWP's 2005 Conference program or for more information, visit us at: . AWP has secured discounted rates for attendees at the Marriott Vancouver Pinnacle Downtown, located just four blocks from the conference site hotels. Please make your hotel arrangements soon. To make your reservations today call 1-800-207-4150, or make your reservations online at: Come join us for the Big Literary Conversation -- Canadian style! If you have any questions or concerns please let us know. If you have already registered -- Thank you. We look forward to seeing you in Vancouver! Best wishes, ______________________________ Matt Scanlon AWP Director of Conferences MS 1E3 George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030 2005 AWP Conference & Bookfair in Vancouver http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2005awpconf.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Jan 20 00:05:59 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:05:59 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] JFK and W: Freedom Fighters In-Reply-To: <200501201700.j0KH09Am007788@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200501201700.j0KH09Am007788@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: The objective reader will note that Professor H.J. took his misguided shots and swipes before the actual President, George W. Bush, spoke at noon today, not the President he cartoons in what is simultaneously a silly and toxic imagination. The announced policy of America henceforward is to reinvigorate President Kennedy's vision of 40+ years ago in his Inaugural Address: We, Americans, who ride with the Maker of this earth and the multiverse in which we breathe awhile, will pay any price, bear any burden, to insure that the fire of human freedom will not be stanched by fat fisted bullying of glint-eyed terrorista tyrants anywhere in this clonic world. R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > >Message: 12 >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:37:40 -0500 >From: "Halvard Johnson" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Bush's Innoculation Day >To: "New-Poetry" >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > >Today, in full view of millions, George W. Bush will >be innoculated for his second term as president of >the United States. If you pay close attention, you will >see someone briefly whisper in his ear, giving him just >a tiny little bit of bad news about Iraq, Iran, and/or >the War on Terror that will prevent his coming down >with news that is bad in a major way later on. Such >innoculations, as we all know, don't necessarily provide >total assurance that one will not catch the disease one >is being innoculated against, as new strains are always >arising, strains that are increasingly resistent to treatment. >You probably remember Bush's being innoculated >against bad news concerning the attack on the World >Trade Center back a few years ago, and, as we all >know, he was fully immunized against bad news >stemming from that particular tragedy, and, in fact, >managed to turn it to his advantage. Thus, Pres. Bush >will today be hoping for another successful immunization, >as well as a good page in future history books. > >Hal You Are Not Authorized to View This Page > >Halvard Johnson > -- From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Jan 21 04:51:45 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:51:45 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Wright, "A Lament for the Martyrs" Message-ID: <200501210931.j0L9V4dc322396@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Was he the poet who said he liked italy because it was the only place where men weep openly? I'm blanking.....either him or Hugo, I think; anybody know? ---------- >From: "Halvard Johnson" >To: "New-Poetry" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Wright, "A Lament for the Martyrs" >Date: Thu, Jan 20, 2005, 5:39 AM > > > A Lament for the Martyrs > > I am sitting in an outdoor cafe across the street from the > Coliseum. The noon is so brilliant that I have to wear my dark > glasses. You would think a Roman noon could lay even the > Coliseum wide open. > But darknesses still foul the place and its hateful grandeur. > The Roman Chamber of Commerce and Betelgueze in > combine could gut the Coliseum by day or by night till the > ghost of Mussolini and the ghost of God turned blue in the > face, and light wouldn't mean a thing in that darkness. Cities > are times of day. Once Rome was noon. Do you get me? To > take a slow lazy walk with Quintus Horatius Flaccus at four > o'clock in the night was to become light. If you don't believe > me, I offer you a method of scientific verification. I lay you > eight to five that you will go blind if you take a walk at high > noon with the President of the United States. I love my > country for it's light. I love Rome because Horace lived there. > I am afraid of the dark. I am game to live with intelligent > sinners. Sometimes these days the Romans say that whatever > the Barbarians left behind was later sacked and raped by the > Barberinis, the noble family who needed the remnant marble > for their country palaces. I find them fair enough for me. > When I was a boy, the mayors of five towns in the Ohio > River Valley solved the practical problems of prohibition by > picking the purest and most perfect bootlegger between > Pittsburgh and Cincinnati to become Chairman of the > Committee for Liquor Control. I think it would be wicked > for me to wonder what the five mayors did with their cut in > private. All I know is that within a year after Milber s public > appointment to a legal office, a symphony orchestra > mysteriously appeared in one town, two spacious football > stadiums appeared in two other towns, the madame of the > cathouse in Wheeling was appointed a dollar-a-year man by > the Federal Government, and I lost an essay-contest whose > subject was the life and work of William Dean Howells, an > American author who was born in Martins Ferry, Ohio, for > Christ's sake, and whose books I had never even heard of, > much less read. (As I look back over the shadows of the years, > I confess that I have read one of his novels. I like him. He was > a good friend of Mark Twain.) > But right now the Roman noon is so brilliant that it hurts > my eyes. ! I sip my cappuchino at a wobbly sidewalk table and > ponder the antiquities of my own childhood: the beautiful > river, that black ditch of horror; and the streetcars. Where have > they gone now, with their wicker seats that seemed to rattle > behind the dull headlights in the slow dusk, in summer where > everything in Ohio ran down and yet never quite stopped? > Now, the Romans and the discovered Americans stroll blinded > in the Coliseum, deaf to the shadows the place never loses, even > at noon in Rome, that was for a little while one of the few noons. > Some archaeologist gouged out the smooth dust floor of the > Coliseum to make it clean. The floor now is a careful revelation. > It is an intricate and intelligent series of ditches, and the sun > cannot reach them. They are the shadows of starved people who > did not even want to die. They were not even Jews. > There is no way to get rid of the shadows of human beings > who could find God only in that last welcome of the creation, > the maws of tortured animals. > Is that last best surest way to heaven the throat of the > hungry? If it is, God is very beautiful, if not very bright. > Who are the hungry? What color is a hungry shadow? > Even the noon sunlight in the Coliseum is the golden > shadow of a starved lion, the most beautiful of God's creatures > except maybe horses. > > --James Wright > > in *Unmuzzled Ox*, Vol. IV, No. 1, 1976 > > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jan 21 15:06:46 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:06:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] some scenarios Message-ID: <002d01c4fff4$bc193c10$9aa83452@yourpk9x5fuc06> I followed Chris Murrays indications on texfiles http://texfiles.blogspot.com/ and just started clicking, enjoy Jack Kimball's work: http://www.fauxpress.com/scenarios/ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinstannard at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 21 15:21:38 2005 From: martinstannard at ntlworld.com (Martin Stannard) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:21:38 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Deeply Felt etc. Message-ID: <002601c4fff6$d1525c90$f3a70252@SPARKLE100> Oh dear, I fear I have begun to dig a hole, and I don't want it to get too deep. Something of a debate has occurred over at "Exultations and Difficulties", and George Szirtes has joined in. Happily, it's all amicable. I think to some extent this is the perennial "us and them" argument. The mainstream v. the rest. Yes, it's a matter of taste perhaps, as far as the poetry goes, but there's also the fact that "influence" as to what goes on, what gets the attention, who gets the money..... Well, as far as I can see, "influence" and what goes with it exists everywhere, and in poetry its as prevalent among the non-mainstream as in the mainstream itself. The significant difference is that one of those streams seems to have its hands on thousands of pounds worth of prizes (or dollars: I'm sure the same happens in the U.S.), and so its influence is of a different order, and reaches parts other poets don?t reach. Personally I don't care much, except to vent some frustrations occasionally, and then carry on doing what I do. I'm hesitant to pluck out a couple of poems as either good or bad -- for starters, it's a taste thing. For seconds, I'm lazy. For thirds, if you care to follow links at "E&D" to places like Stride, Shearsman.... or look at the one or two poets I've published on the site. Well, that's some of my taste. Poems by George Szirtes, Carol Rumens and others are out there somewhere too, that's for sure. Best to all..... Martin Stannard Home Page: http://martinstannard.blogspot.com Blog (well, much more of an e-zine these days): http://exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/ "Do fish know what water is?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jan 21 16:00:15 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:00:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poet laureate Message-ID: <1d6.34d229e7.2f22c75f@aol.com> Hey,Tad, aren't you a Merle fan?... http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/11815606p-12703437c.html Poet of the people Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poet laureate By David Holwerk -- Bee Editorial Page Editor Published 2:15 am PST Sunday, December 19, 2004 If you're like most people, you probably haven't given much thought to the question of who should be California's next poet laureate. Partly, that's because the poet laureate doesn't have much impact on most people's lives. But there's a larger reason, which is that contemporary poetry itself doesn't have much impact on most people's lives. Few people read poetry anymore, and the poetry they do read is sniffed at by literary types as "popular." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jan 21 16:31:44 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:31:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poet laureate Message-ID: <79.3d5ce9ad.2f22cec0@cs.com> In a message dated 1/21/2005 3:02:53 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > Hey,Tad, aren't you a Merle fan?... > > http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/11815606p-12703437c.html > > > > Poet of the people > > Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poet laureate > > By David Holwerk -- Bee Editorial Page Editor > > Published 2:15 am PST Sunday, December 19, 2004 > > If you're like most people, you probably haven't given much thought to the > question of who should be California's next poet laureate. > > Partly, that's because the poet laureate doesn't have much impact on most > people's lives. But there's a larger reason, which is that contemporary poetry > itself doesn't have much impact on most people's lives. Few people read > poetry anymore, and the poetry they do read is sniffed at by literary types as > "popular." > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Merle Haggard, hell! Buck Owens! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jan 21 16:54:20 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:54:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poet laureate In-Reply-To: <79.3d5ce9ad.2f22cec0@cs.com> Message-ID: on 1/21/05 3:31 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: Merle Haggard, hell! Buck Owens! ============================ Act Naturally They're gonna put me in the movies They're gonna make a big star out of me We'll make a film about a man that's sad and lonely And all I have to do is act naturally CHORUS Well, I bet you I'm gonna be a big star Might win an Oscar you can never tell The movie's gonna make me a big star, 'Cause I can play the part so well Well, I hope you come and see me in the movie Then I'll know that you will plainly see The biggest fool that ever hit the big time And all I have to do is act naturally We'll make a film about a man that's sad and lonely Begging down upon his bended knee I'll play the part but I won't need rehearsing All I have to do is act naturally CHORUS Buck Owens ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jan 21 16:57:14 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:57:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poet laureate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kern River I'll never swim Kern River again. It was there that I met her. It was there that I lost my best friend. And now I live in the mountains. I drifted up here with the wind. And I may drown in still water, But I'll never swim Kern River again. I grew up in an oil town, But my gusher never came in. And the river was a boundary Where my darlin' and I used to swim. One night in the moonlight The swiftness swept here life away. And now I live on Lake Shasta and Lake Shasta is where I will stay. There's the South San Joaquin, Where the seeds of the dust bowl are found. And there's a place called Mount Whitney >From where the mighty Kern River comes down. Well, it's not deep nor wide, But it's a mean piece of water my friend. And I may cross on the highway, But I'll never swim Kern River again --Merle Haggard ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Fri Jan 21 18:43:51 2005 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:43:51 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Review of ahadada reader 1 Message-ID: <1106351031.41f193b78f6fe@webmail.ukonline.net> My review of ahadada reader 1 (Halsey, Byrum, Monk) is now in Stride: http://www.stridemagazine.co.uk/ and also in A Brief History of Western Culture: http://ww.geocities.com/mpeverett/selhist5.htm Other recent entries include: Edm Spenser: The Shepheardes Calender Shakespeare: 3 Henry VI Victor Canning (popular novelist fl. 1930s and onwards) C.S. Lewis: The Problem of Pain 1940 Walton Hannah: Darkness Visible 1952 (freemasonry and anglicanism) The Naked Spur (MGM movie 1953) Peter Riley: Excavations ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From tad at opus40.org Fri Jan 21 20:25:23 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:25:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poetlaureate References: <1d6.34d229e7.2f22c75f@aol.com> Message-ID: <004601c50021$5124bc90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I like Kentucky's idea of more than one laureate at a time, or the idea of a laureateship for one year. I don't think the laureateship means nothing - I don't think that anything which takes poetry out of the exclusive purview of the pobiz crowd is without value. And I'm not putting down the pobiz crowd. I'm one of them, as my participation on this list should prove. I have no problem with Merle Haggard as California's poet laureate, or Chuck Berry as Missouri's. I have a problem with Quincy Troupe having been defrocked as laureate over an issue of his imaginary PhD. No problem with his losing academic standing, but poet laureate shouldn't be an academic position. But Quincy Troupe turning over the laureateship to Merle Haggard, who in turn would hand if over to Gary Snyder...how can that be anything but healthy? The selection of Hag's lyrics in the article is a good one. Sentiment became the provenance of songwriters when the modernists banished it from poetry, just as melody became the provenance of pop music when the beboppers banished it from jazz. I love the modernists and the beboppers, but I love melody and sentiment too, and powerful artistry can be found in all camps. I used to teach a course called "the American Bard" in which I taught poets and songwriters in tandem. Some of them were Robert Frost/Robert Johnson, Woody Guthrie/Robinson Jeffers, Merle Haggard/Philip Levine. . Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poetlaureate Hey,Tad, aren't you a Merle fan?... http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/11815606p-12703437c.html Poet of the people Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poet laureate By David Holwerk -- Bee Editorial Page Editor Published 2:15 am PST Sunday, December 19, 2004 If you're like most people, you probably haven't given much thought to the question of who should be California's next poet laureate. Partly, that's because the poet laureate doesn't have much impact on most people's lives. But there's a larger reason, which is that contemporary poetry itself doesn't have much impact on most people's lives. Few people read poetry anymore, and the poetry they do read is sniffed at by literary types as "popular." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Jan 21 20:32:55 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:32:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poetlaureate References: <79.3d5ce9ad.2f22cec0@cs.com> Message-ID: <007a01c50022$5045b1c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> A couple more by Merle that I really like. "The Old Man From the Mountain" has humor and bite. "Daddy Frank" is as corny and sentimental and formulaic as anything you can imagine, except that it isn't. It tells a great story, and captures a mythic truth. The Old Man From The Mountain's Comin' home, home, home Thought I'd better warn you So I called you on the phone Get rid of Joe the grinder You better be there alone 'Cause the Old Man From The Mountain's Comin' home. I've been a-workin in the sawmill I'm all up-tight and tense And I got word that someone's Been diggin' under my back fence Thought I'd better call you Let you know today That the Old Man From The Mountain's On his way. Been workin' my dang fool head off All for a dollar bill Now I need a bunch of good lovin' So I'm comin' down the hill Don't want no friendly henry's Warmin' up my bed And the Old Man From The Mountain Means what he said. Daddy Frank played the guitar and the french harp, Sister played the ringing tambourine. Mama couldn't hear our pretty music, She read our lips and helped the family sing. That little band was all a part of living, And our only means of living at the time; And it wasn't like no normal family combo, Cause Daddy Frank the guitar man was blind. Frank and mama counted on each other; Their one and only weakness made them strong. Mama did the driving for the family, And Frank made a living with a song. Home was just a camp along the highway; A pick-up bed was where we bedded down. Don't ever once remember going hungry, But I remember mama cooking on the ground. Don't remember how they got acquainted; I can't recall just how it came to be. There had to be some special help from someone, And blessed be the one that let it be. Fever caused my mama's loss of hearing. Daddy Frank was born without his sight. And mama needed someone she could lean on, And I believe the guitar man was right. Daddy Frank played the guitar and the french harp, Sister played the ringing tambourine. Mama couldn't hear our pretty music, She read our lips and helped the family sing. Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Jan 22 00:08:10 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:08:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poet laureate Message-ID: <200501220447.j0M4lSoB190480@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> And there's the great word-play of "My Own Kind Of Hat" Then, of course, there's his mid 70s song--"Life's Like Poetry" "but in my poem, babe, up till now there's always been a missing line" ---------- From: David Graham To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's next poet laureate Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2005, 1:57 PM Kern River I'll never swim Kern River again. It was there that I met her. It was there that I lost my best friend. And now I live in the mountains. I drifted up here with the wind. And I may drown in still water, But I'll never swim Kern River again. I grew up in an oil town, But my gusher never came in. And the river was a boundary Where my darlin' and I used to swim. One night in the moonlight The swiftness swept here life away. And now I live on Lake Shasta and Lake Shasta is where I will stay. There's the South San Joaquin, Where the seeds of the dust bowl are found. And there's a place called Mount Whitney >From where the mighty Kern River comes down. Well, it's not deep nor wide, But it's a mean piece of water my friend. And I may cross on the highway, But I'll never swim Kern River again --Merle Haggard ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 22 11:12:56 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:12:56 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart Message-ID: <00a001c5009d$3c616b10$c28d3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very beautiful: http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been switched on, ... Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 22 11:36:13 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:36:13 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's nextpoetlaureate References: <79.3d5ce9ad.2f22cec0@cs.com> <007a01c50022$5045b1c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00f001c500a0$7cb68170$c28d3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> Daddy Frank is great, and also Hungry Eyes, and yes, for Merle Haggard, and for Snyder, and Ferlinghetti, what about Armantrout, she should be from California, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:32 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's nextpoetlaureate A couple more by Merle that I really like. "The Old Man From the Mountain" has humor and bite. "Daddy Frank" is as corny and sentimental and formulaic as anything you can imagine, except that it isn't. It tells a great story, and captures a mythic truth. The Old Man From The Mountain's Comin' home, home, home Thought I'd better warn you So I called you on the phone Get rid of Joe the grinder You better be there alone 'Cause the Old Man From The Mountain's Comin' home. I've been a-workin in the sawmill I'm all up-tight and tense And I got word that someone's Been diggin' under my back fence Thought I'd better call you Let you know today That the Old Man From The Mountain's On his way. Been workin' my dang fool head off All for a dollar bill Now I need a bunch of good lovin' So I'm comin' down the hill Don't want no friendly henry's Warmin' up my bed And the Old Man From The Mountain Means what he said. Daddy Frank played the guitar and the french harp, Sister played the ringing tambourine. Mama couldn't hear our pretty music, She read our lips and helped the family sing. That little band was all a part of living, And our only means of living at the time; And it wasn't like no normal family combo, Cause Daddy Frank the guitar man was blind. Frank and mama counted on each other; Their one and only weakness made them strong. Mama did the driving for the family, And Frank made a living with a song. Home was just a camp along the highway; A pick-up bed was where we bedded down. Don't ever once remember going hungry, But I remember mama cooking on the ground. Don't remember how they got acquainted; I can't recall just how it came to be. There had to be some special help from someone, And blessed be the one that let it be. Fever caused my mama's loss of hearing. Daddy Frank was born without his sight. And mama needed someone she could lean on, And I believe the guitar man was right. Daddy Frank played the guitar and the french harp, Sister played the ringing tambourine. Mama couldn't hear our pretty music, She read our lips and helped the family sing. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lesrho at fullnet.net Sat Jan 22 12:41:54 2005 From: lesrho at fullnet.net (LesRho) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:41:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry Message-ID: <002401c500a9$cbc7f740$8506e2d8@retiredud69srz> If a new poem is submitted to this site what happens to it? I do believe that Merle Haggard should be the California Poet Laureate. The people of Oklahoma would probably vote for him if they could because of "Okie From Muskogee" if for no other reason. Les Easley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 22 13:36:19 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:36:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California'snextpoetlaureate References: <79.3d5ce9ad.2f22cec0@cs.com><007a01c50022$5045b1c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <00f001c500a0$7cb68170$c28d3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <017401c500b1$43e8aa60$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 22 13:38:00 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:38:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry References: <002401c500a9$cbc7f740$8506e2d8@retiredud69srz> Message-ID: <01a601c500b1$8078f7f0$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Poems are not "submitted" to this site. If you want a poem to be seen at the site, you simply post it. But the management would appreciate your not posting more than one a month, or something like that. (I'm not the management.) --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: LesRho To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 12:41 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry If a new poem is submitted to this site what happens to it? I do believe that Merle Haggard should be the California Poet Laureate. The people of Oklahoma would probably vote for him if they could because of "Okie From Muskogee" if for no other reason. Les Easley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jan 22 13:46:58 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:46:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Denise Levertov, "Misnomer" +2 Message-ID: In California During the Gulf War Among the blight-killed eucalypts, among trees and bushes rusted by Christmas frosts, the years and hillsides exhausted by five years of drought, certain airy white blossoms punctually reappeared, and dense clusters of pale pink, dark pink-- a delicate abundance. They seemed like guests arriving joyfully on the accustomed festival day, unaware of the year's events, not perceiving the sackcloth others were wearing. To some of us, the dejected landscape consorted well with our shame and bitterness. Skies ever-blue, daily sunshine, disgusted us like smile-buttons. Yet the blossoms, clinging to the branches more lightly than birds alert for flight, lifted the sunken heart even against its will. But not as symbols of hope: they were flimsy as our resistance to the crimes committed --again, again--in our name; and yes, they return, year after year, and yes, they briefly shone with serene joy over against the dark glare of evil days. They *are*, and their presence is quietness ineffable--and the bombings *are*, were, no doubt will be; that quiet, that huge cacophany simultaneous. No promise was being accorded, the blossoms were not doves, there was no rainbow. And when it was claimed the war had ended, it had not ended. ===== Misnomer They speak of the art of war but the arts draw their light from the soul's well, and warfare dries up the soul and draws its power from a dark and burning wasteland. When Leonardo set his genius to devising machines of destruction he was not acting in the service of art, he was suspending the life of art over an abyss, as if one were to hold a living child out of an airplane window at thirty thousand feet. === News Report, September 1991 U.S. Buried Iraqi Soldiers Alive in Gulf War "*What you saw was a bunch of trenches with arms sticking out.*" "Plows mounted on tanks. Combat earthmovers." "Defiant." "Buried." "Carefully planned and rehearsed." "*When we went through there wasn't anybody left.*" "Awarded Silver Star." "Reporters banned." "Not a single American killed." "Bodycount impossible." "*For all I know, thousands,* said Colonel Moreno." "*What you saw was a bunch of buried trenches with people's arms and things sticking out.*" "Secretary Cheney made no mention." "Every single American was inside the juggernaut impervious to small-arms fire." "*I know burying people like that sounds pretty nasty,* said Colonel Maggart, "But . . . . *" "His force buried about six hundred and fifty in a thinner line of trenches." "*People's arms sticking out.*" "Every American inside." "The juggernaut." "*I'm not going to sacrifice the lives of my soldiers,* Moreno said, "it's not cost-effective.*" "*The tactic was designed to terrorize,* Lieutenant Colonel Hawkins said, who helped devise it." "Schwartzkopf's staff privately estimated fifty to seventy thousand killed in the trenches." "Private Joe Queen was awarded a Bronze Star for burying trenches with his earthmover." "Inside the juggernaut." "Impervious." "*A lot of the guys were scared,* he said, *but I enjoyed it.*" "*A bunch of trenches. People's arms and things sticking out.*" "*Cost-effective.*" --Denise Levertov fr. *Evening Train* [New York: New Directions, 1992] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 22 13:54:59 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:54:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry In-Reply-To: <01a601c500b1$8078f7f0$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050122185459.37027.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com> Exactly. Bob's right. We (most of us, probably) would welcome a posted poem, but we also appreciate it if you don't post any more than one of your own per month. We talk at lenght *about* poetry, and I'd like to believe that this list is for poetry lovers as well as poets in general. Jeff N. --- Bob Grumman wrote: > Poems are not "submitted" to this site. If you want > a poem to be seen at the site, you simply post it. > But the management would appreciate your not posting > more than one a month, or something like that. (I'm > not the management.) > > --Bob G. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: LesRho > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 12:41 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry > > > If a new poem is submitted to this site what > happens to it? I do believe that Merle > Haggard should be the California Poet Laureate. > The people of Oklahoma would > probably vote for him if they could because of > "Okie From Muskogee" if for no other reason. > > Les Easley > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Jan 22 14:08:56 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:08:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's nextpoetlaureate Message-ID: <76.4b233738.2f23fec8@cs.com> Buck! Yes! Artist Lyrics: Buck Owens Song Lyrics: I Wouldn'T Live In New York City Album Lyrics: [Buy " " CD] It ain't nothin' but a concrete jungle with people packed like sardines Where everybody's tryin' to live beyond their means Where all the natives hurry and scurry too and fro And like a fleas on a puppy dog they got no place to go I wouldn't live in New York City if they gave me the whole dang town Talk about a bummer it's the biggest one around Sodom and Gommorah was tame to what I found I wouldn't live in New York City if they gave me the whole dang town Well I ain't seen the sunshine since the day that I arrived Cause brother I've been busy a tryin' to survive Nobody knows you've been here till you're six feet under ground Than you become a statistic if they remember to write you down -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jan 22 14:46:02 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:46:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <79.3d5ce9ad.2f22cec0@cs.com><007a01c50022$5045b1c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00f001c500a0$7cb68170$c28d3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> <017401c500b1$43e8aa60$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004c01c500bb$03cd7cd0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Even given the inanity of the comparison, I'm not sure I'd agree. If California were choosing a scientist laureate, as opposed to a distinguished chair of science at a university, they'd probably do well to choose someone whose contributions were well known and significant to the general public. I don't believe that this issue of received vs new techniques should even be raised in selecting a poet laureate. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Sat Jan 22 15:08:01 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:08:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate Message-ID: <80.1fb9a384.2f240ca1@aol.com> After what happened with Quincy Troupe, I am imagining that the next Poet Laureate will be of solid (verified) academic stock: Someone along the lines of David St John or Chase Twitchell. Although Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Charles Harper Webb, Gerald Locklin or Frank Gaspar would be nice.. .Carolyn Kizer? Do the poets have to be native-born? or have lived in Calif. for a certain umber of years? A lot of good poets were eliminated from a recent California anthologies because they were not natives, or had lived fewer than ten years in the state. Has anyone on this list gone through the process of nominating the Calif. Poet Laureate? Cheers, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 22 15:53:43 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:53:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <79.3d5ce9ad.2f22cec0@cs.com><007a01c50022$5045b1c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00f001c500a0$7cb68170$c28d3052@yourpk9x5fuc06><017401c500b1$43e8aa60$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <004c01c500bb$03cd7cd0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <020101c500c4$76169a70$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> However inane the comparison, it is a FACT that there are two kinds of poets extant--those writing poetry at the level that scientists build and test theories, and those writing poetry at or below the level of those using received science to build bridges and airplanes. The best way to go with a laureateship, it seems to me, would be to have two. One for Merle or Buck, and one for someone who is writing superior poetry--and maybe even doing something to improve his field the way the best scientists improve their fields. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate Even given the inanity of the comparison, I'm not sure I'd agree. If California were choosing a scientist laureate, as opposed to a distinguished chair of science at a university, they'd probably do well to choose someone whose contributions were well known and significant to the general public. I don't believe that this issue of received vs new techniques should even be raised in selecting a poet laureate. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. --Bob G. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jan 22 15:57:49 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:57:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <004c01c500bb$03cd7cd0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Hmm, now you guys have gotten me wondering how them Montana-ites are fixing to pick theirs. Hmm. Hal Even given the inanity of the comparison, I'm not sure I'd agree. If California were choosing a scientist laureate, as opposed to a distinguished chair of science at a university, they'd probably do well to choose someone whose contributions were well known and significant to the general public. I don't believe that this issue of received vs new techniques should even be raised in selecting a poet laureate. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. --Bob G. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jan 22 15:59:56 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:59:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <80.1fb9a384.2f240ca1@aol.com> Message-ID: Hmm, hasn't Gary Snyder lived in California long enough to make your list, Mill, eh? Hmm. Hal After what happened with Quincy Troupe, I am imagining that the next Poet Laureate will be of solid (verified) academic stock: Someone along the lines of David St John or Chase Twitchell. Although Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Charles Harper Webb, Gerald Locklin or Frank Gaspar would be nice.. .Carolyn Kizer? Do the poets have to be native-born? or have lived in Calif. for a certain umber of years? A lot of good poets were eliminated from a recent California anthologies because they were not natives, or had lived fewer than ten years in the state. Has anyone on this list gone through the process of nominating the Calif. Poet Laureate? Cheers, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Sat Jan 22 16:19:19 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:19:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate Message-ID: Of course, Hal, but someone already mentioned Gary Snyder! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jan 22 16:30:42 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:30:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate References: Message-ID: <002701c500c9$a3a28210$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> What about Philip Levine for Cal longevity? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 3:59 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate Hmm, hasn't Gary Snyder lived in California long enough to make your list, Mill, eh? Hmm. Hal After what happened with Quincy Troupe, I am imagining that the next Poet Laureate will be of solid (verified) academic stock: Someone along the lines of David St John or Chase Twitchell. Although Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Charles Harper Webb, Gerald Locklin or Frank Gaspar would be nice.. .Carolyn Kizer? Do the poets have to be native-born? or have lived in Calif. for a certain umber of years? A lot of good poets were eliminated from a recent California anthologies because they were not natives, or had lived fewer than ten years in the state. Has anyone on this list gone through the process of nominating the Calif. Poet Laureate? Cheers, Mill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Jan 22 16:31:42 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:31:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart References: <00a001c5009d$3c616b10$c28d3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <006a01c500c9$def630f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> This chart is now my computer's wallpaper/ Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very beautiful: http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been switched on, ... Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jan 22 16:30:23 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:30:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dagnab it, Mill. I first read badly when I was seventeen, and I thought, that day I started, I sure would hate to do this all my life. And dammit, that's just what I've gone and done. Hal Of course, Hal, but someone already mentioned Gary Snyder! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 22 16:46:31 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:46:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate References: Message-ID: <010601c500cb$d63425b0$85a83852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Also Ferlinghetti was previously mentioned, but Mill repeated him again. Yes, I know there are plenty of nasty characters of which I remind you in this moment, sorry. ----- Original Message ----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:30 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate Dagnab it, Mill. I first read badly when I was seventeen, and I thought, that day I started, I sure would hate to do this all my life. And dammit, that's just what I've gone and done. Hal Of course, Hal, but someone already mentioned Gary Snyder! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 22 17:16:38 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:16:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart References: <00a001c5009d$3c616b10$c28d3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> <006a01c500c9$def630f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <007901c500d0$0b0212d0$85a83852@yourpk9x5fuc06> With Alan's permission, I now feature it also on the Poets' Corner: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=958 From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart This chart is now my computer's wallpaper/ Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very beautiful: http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been switched on, ... Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 22 17:16:57 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:16:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart References: <00a001c5009d$3c616b10$c28d3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> <006a01c500c9$def630f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <028201c500d0$16cf2940$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> They should make Ferlinghetti Retroactive California Poet Laureate, 1950--1980, give Snyder 1980-1990 and some other long-passed poet 1990-2004, and give the new one to a poet doing something interesting in poetry, like Karl Kempton. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart This chart is now my computer's wallpaper/ Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very beautiful: http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been switched on, ... Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jan 22 17:18:20 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:18:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart In-Reply-To: <007901c500d0$0b0212d0$85a83852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: Now that "yung" is up, can "froid" be far behind? [Note: "Froid" is how "Freud" was spelt in a transcript I read long ago, while serving my time in Chicago, of hearings by the Illinois State Committee on Un-American Activities (that may not have been the precise name, but it's close). The Illinois hearings neatly paralleled those held in DC by Sen. McCarthy & co.] Hal With Alan's permission, I now feature it also on the Poets' Corner: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=958 ---- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very beautiful: http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been switched on, ... Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 22 17:40:07 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:40:07 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart References: Message-ID: <00a601c500d3$52e25030$85a83852@yourpk9x5fuc06> to make me laugh at 11.31 while translating technical stuff, you must be a wizzZard * know that yung pings the cap froid afraid far feoffees fief the fried in the French flash a finch yung sung tsiu * From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:18 PM Now that "yung" is up, can "froid" be far behind? [Note: "Froid" is how "Freud" was spelt in a transcript I read long ago, while serving my time in Chicago, of hearings by the Illinois State Committee on Un-American Activities (that may not have been the precise name, but it's close). The Illinois hearings neatly paralleled those held in DC by Sen. McCarthy & co.] Hal With Alan's permission, I now feature it also on the Poets' Corner: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=958 ---- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very beautiful: http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been switched on, ... Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Jan 22 18:17:08 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:17:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate Message-ID: <200501222256.j0MMuSGR232658@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> Bob, I like your idea of having two poet laureates, one of whom could be somebody like Merle. It shows respect for different modes, and could be a good compromise. For the sake of argument, Bob, I'll try to grant the your analogy with experimental scientists vs. "using received science" (applied science?), despite your spatial metaphor ("below"--even though you claim to prefer "non-judgmental names"). Anyway, even if I grant your analogy, is it really an apt characterization of Merle to call him one who uses "received science to build bridges and airplanes"? For if one values innovation as you do, I could understand why you would characterize someone like Philip Levine as a carpenter or mechanic rather than an experimental scientist, but it seems to me there's a world of difference between what Levine does and what Merle does. Partially because Merle didn't really call himself a poet in the first place (and thus didn't have to deal with all that self-conscious baggage that was thrust onto his contemporary Dylan). But if one is going to make the assumption (implicit in this argument) that Merle's LYRICS take as their starting point, a basic traditional (non-innovative) rhyming structure and subject matters--and that he really made no innovations in those areas, I also think that one can't deny that his therefore taking steel guitar, fiddle, the excellent backing band, The Strangers, and his vocal prowess does something INNOVATIVE with those words, and furthermore, to the very notions of what is considered "poetry." It's not just an applied science, on a lower (below) level. Or at least that argument is a valid one. That being said, I don't feel any particular need to call Merle, or Buck, or Dylan for that matter, a poet, as the term is often "understood" or used today (it would be very interesting to see what Merle himself would have to say about this "honor") , but only if the term is not used condescendingly (or out of envy. I'm not saying that YOU envy, but only that many of those who call themselves poets, of the more "sophisticated" ilk seem to have a tinge of envy when they scoff at the idea of Merle being named)---for I do believe that, whether we call Merle's art poetry or not, there's definitely something in it that poets can learn from that would, yes, "improve the field" or "advance the art." Chris ---------- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate Date: Sat, Jan 22, 2005, 12:53 PM However inane the comparison, it is a FACT that there are two kinds of poets extant--those writing poetry at the level that scientists build and test theories, and those writing poetry at or below the level of those using received science to build bridges and airplanes. The best way to go with a laureateship, it seems to me, would be to have two. One for Merle or Buck, and one for someone who is writing superior poetry--and maybe even doing something to improve his field the way the best scientists improve their fields. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate Even given the inanity of the comparison, I'm not sure I'd agree. If California were choosing a scientist laureate, as opposed to a distinguished chair of science at a university, they'd probably do well to choose someone whose contributions were well known and significant to the general public. I don't believe that this issue of received vs new techniques should even be raised in selecting a poet laureate. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. --Bob G. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat Jan 22 18:22:35 2005 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:22:35 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stirred & Crazed In-Reply-To: <200501222220.j0MMK7Al029566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050122151037.00c4b5e0@incoming.verizon.net> At 05:20 PM 1/22/2005 -0500, Our Bob Who Is Always With Us wrote: > But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. > >--Bob G. May I be forgiven for astonishment, encountering the statement above? That enlightenment can come, transforming perpetual kvetch into generous mindfulness renews my faith in redeeming grace. Bless you, Bob. Quel Breakthrough! I think this may mean that even such as I can aspire to an Explode-Norm-Wonderful-Though-Always-Unfairly-Ignored- Poetry-School designation. unbarryably relieved, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 22 19:30:27 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:30:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <200501222256.j0MMuSGR232658@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <02fb01c500e2$bd58a7c0$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureateIn brief, Chris, I go with you in not counting Merle a poet--he's a song-writer/performer. I was just going with what was on the table at the time. I do think he's more of an applied artist than a, well, theoretical or experimental artist. But engineers can be very creative. I'm sort of brainstorming, I guess, trying to find a way of separating art that is directly for most people, and art that is an exploration for the few. I do think the latter are more important, but not that the former are not important--and, in fact, at their best, essential. We have to have all kinds. Actually, there are probably three kinds of poets: the ones reaching the masses, or the majority of readers of poetry, at any rate; the ones getting the praise of the academy; and my kind of poets. I can't be unenvious of those who seem to me to have little talent but are grandly rewarded, and I have trouble not being hostile to the stasguards who leave my kind of poetry out of anthologies, bigCirc magazines, college classes, etc.,--and--as a result--to the kind of poetry they like (which is unfair of me). I also find it hard psychologically to understand people content to do what others before them have done. Hairy subject. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo at optonline.net Sat Jan 22 19:53:40 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:53:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ananthema Message-ID: <01f601c500e5$fab25870$3a95c044@MULDER> pikes speak o dutiful, for vacant eyes, for crimson open vein, for dogma-ravaged sanities oblivious to pain! o dutiful! o dutiful! what grace remains to thee who spurn the good of brotherhood for blind fidelity? ~ Dan Zimmerman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Jan 22 19:53:38 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:53:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <02fb01c500e2$bd58a7c0$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F2AF42.562.1389713@localhost> On 22 Jan 2005 at 19:30, Bob Grumman wrote: > I can't be unenvious of those who seem to me to have little talent but > are grandly rewarded, and I have trouble not being hostile to the > stasguards who leave my kind of poetry out of anthologies, bigCirc > magazines, college classes, etc.,--and--as a result--to the kind of > poetry they like (which is unfair of me). I also find it hard > psychologically to understand people content to do what others before > them have done. You give up sex, too, Bob, because it's what others before you have done? Won't eat food made from a recipe anyone anywhere has ever made before? What a silly position it is to take in any area of human endeavor that you won't do something because it's what others before you have done! Marcus From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Jan 22 19:57:13 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:57:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <020101c500c4$76169a70$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F2B019.23151.13BDF1C@localhost> On 22 Jan 2005 at 15:53, Bob Grumman wrote: > However inane the comparison, it is a FACT that there are two kinds of > poets extant--those writing poetry at the level that scientists build > and test theories, and those writing poetry at or below the level of > those using received science to build bridges and airplanes.< This may be all very well as a metaphor or analogy, Bob, but art is not science. There is no measurable "progress" in art, there is really never anything new in art. It's always the same old human problems again, Bob. Nothing new -- nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing. Live with it. Marcus From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Jan 22 20:01:30 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:01:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <017401c500b1$43e8aa60$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F2B11A.25244.13FCA09@localhost> On 22 Jan 2005 at 13:36, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would > prefer non-judgemental names. O, this is infamous! The prince of the malicious neologism says he would "prefer non-judgmental names"? That's either an intellectual breakthrough of astonishing proportions or the kind breathtaking lie that takes the breath. We'll see which it is by how Grumman handles the issue of the malicious neologisms he's tried to perpetrate to date. If he doesn't recant them, if he continues to use them in his posts and essays and conversation, then the above is simply a lie. If he does recant, and changes them all, then we may have seen something significant here today. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 22 20:29:06 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:29:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F2AF42.562.1389713@localhost> Message-ID: <031501c500ea$eec71960$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 22 Jan 2005 at 19:30, Bob Grumman wrote: >> I can't be unenvious of those who seem to me to have little talent but >> are grandly rewarded, and I have trouble not being hostile to the >> stasguards who leave my kind of poetry out of anthologies, bigCirc >> magazines, college classes, etc.,--and--as a result--to the kind of >> poetry they like (which is unfair of me). I also find it hard >> psychologically to understand people content to do what others before >> them have done. > > You give up sex, too, Bob, because it's what others before you have > done? Won't eat food made from a recipe anyone anywhere has ever made > before? What a silly position it is to take in any area of human > endeavor that you won't do something because it's what others before > you have done! > > Marcus Ah, Marcusian reasoning--based on the fact that I didn't say, "I find find it hard psychologically to understand people content to do what others before them have done IN POETRY." As the context made clear to anyone without verosopathic needs. Poetry is a creative specialty, not a near-universal human function. I would have to add, "when it is a major life-endeavor of theirs." I can certainly understand the week-end poet who just wants to make a catchy limerick or a competent sonnet. Intellectually, I can understand taking up poetry as one's main career and not caring about exploring its possibilities to the fullest, but not emotionally, simply because that's not the way I could be. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 22 20:38:28 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:38:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why MerleHaggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F2B019.23151.13BDF1C@localhost> Message-ID: <031a01c500ec$3dde2e20$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 22 Jan 2005 at 15:53, Bob Grumman wrote: >> However inane the comparison, it is a FACT that there are two kinds of >> poets extant--those writing poetry at the level that scientists build >> and test theories, and those writing poetry at or below the level of >> those using received science to build bridges and airplanes.< > This may be all very well as a metaphor or analogy, Bob, but art is > not science. There is no measurable "progress" in art, there is > really never anything new in art. It's always the same old human > problems again, Bob. Nothing new -- nothing nothing nothing nothing > nothing. > Live with it. > > Marcus Right, Marcus. When Aeschylus added a second character to a play, the drama did not progress. --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 22 20:39:38 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:39:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbe California'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F2B11A.25244.13FCA09@localhost> Message-ID: <032001c500ec$67299f30$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 22 Jan 2005 at 13:36, Bob Grumman wrote: >> ... Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would >> prefer non-judgemental names. I would really prefer non-judgemental names IN THIS CASE, my dear verosopath. Try to read sentences keeping their context in mind. > O, this is infamous! The prince of the malicious neologism says he > would "prefer non-judgmental names"? That's either an intellectual > breakthrough of astonishing proportions or the kind breathtaking lie > that takes the breath. > > We'll see which it is by how Grumman handles the issue of the > malicious neologisms he's tried to perpetrate to date. If he doesn't > recant them, if he continues to use them in his posts and essays and > conversation, then the above is simply a lie. If he does recant, and > changes them all, then we may have seen something significant here > today. > > Marcus > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Jan 22 20:58:39 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:58:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why MerleHaggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <031a01c500ec$3dde2e20$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F2BE7F.21767.1741C38@localhost> On 22 Jan 2005 at 20:38, Bob Grumman wrote: > > On 22 Jan 2005 at 15:53, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> However inane the comparison, it is a FACT that there are two kinds > >> of poets extant--those writing poetry at the level that scientists > >> build and test theories, and those writing poetry at or below the > >> level of those using received science to build bridges and > >> airplanes.< > > > This may be all very well as a metaphor or analogy, Bob, but art is > > not science. There is no measurable "progress" in art, there is > > really never anything new in art. It's always the same old human > > problems again, Bob. Nothing new -- nothing nothing nothing nothing > > nothing. > > Live with it. > Right, Marcus. When Aeschylus added a second character to a play, the > drama did not progress. That's right, Bob -- it did not progress. It changed, to be sure, but there is simply no standard by which to measure a notion such as 'progress' in the arts. It's a silly notion to hold that the arts 'progress' for that reason. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 06:49:12 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 06:49:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why MerleHaggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F2BE7F.21767.1741C38@localhost> Message-ID: <006401c50141$8f0049f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Right, Marcus. When Aeschylus added a second character to a play, the >> drama did not progress. > > That's right, Bob -- it did not progress. It changed, to be sure, but > there is simply no standard by which to measure a notion such as > 'progress' in the arts. It's a silly notion to hold that the arts > 'progress' for that reason. Nonetheless, I will go with the majority and continue to believe that Aeschylus improved the drama considerably by adding a second character to plays, thus allowing for exchanges between two characters, and significantly increasing the amount of thoughts and feelings that a play could express. Playwrights after him could still write plays with just the chorus and a main character, so nothing was lost. This is what I mean by progress in the arts. --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Jan 23 08:40:36 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:40:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why MerleHaggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <006401c50141$8f0049f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F36304.6508.342B24@localhost> Bob Grumman wrote: > Nonetheless, I will go with the majority and continue to believe that > Aeschylus improved the drama considerably by adding a second character > to plays, thus allowing for exchanges between two characters, and > significantly increasing the amount of thoughts and feelings that a > play could express. Playwrights after him could still write plays with > just the chorus and a main character, so nothing was lost. This is > what I mean by progress in the arts.< I dispute that two characters necessarily and always results in "significantly increasing the amount of thoughts and feelings that a play could express". That means, of course, that a cast of thousands is necessarily a better play than a cast of one -- that the more people you jam onstage the better your production must inevitably be. It is simple-minded crap, Bob, and even you can do better than that -- I hope -- in trying to argue for newness of technique as the primary way to judge value in art. The point I'm making is that technique in art is not the primary measure, or even an important one, but rather the primary measure of the art is the effect of whatever technique, or techniques, one uses on the audience. You're trying to say that the technique alone, just by virtue of being something no one has ever done in public before, is ipso facto good -- and more than good, better than anything that has come before just because it's new. But that's obvious nonsense, Bob. New is better only if there is a standard for achievement against which all are accurately measurable against. What is that standard, Bob? What is your standard for comparing your mathemaku with Milton so that you say your work scores higher? Marcus From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Jan 23 08:40:36 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:40:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbe California'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <005f01c50140$963c5c00$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F36304.20900.342AD4@localhost> > >> > On 22 Jan 2005 at 13:36, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> ... Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would > >> >> prefer non-judgemental names. > > On 22 Jan 2005 at 20:39, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> I would really prefer non-judgemental names IN THIS CASE... > > Marcus Bales wrote: > > If you can't say what you mean, Bob, mean what you say. Bob Grumman wrote: > I said exactly what I meant. Look at it again. I gave two names. > THEN I said I'd prefer non-judgemental names. Only someone out to > derail the discussion would think I could possibly mean that I > preferred non-judgemental names ot all other names rather than TO > THOSE JUST GIVEN.< No, Bob, in the context of your insistent malicious neologisms, your constant and obvious intent to demean and dismiss all other kinds of poetry than that which you write by use of those malicious neologisms, among other techniques, nothing could be more ironic than you saying you prefer "non-judgmental names" for categories of poets! You have spent, by your own claim, 30 years making malicious neologisms and using them to demean and dismiss poetry other than the kind you happen to be writing at any given moment. The context in which YOU claim to "prefer non-judgmental names" is the broader context of your career of malicious neologism. Bob Grumman wrote: > Moreover, I'd have to be insane to prefer > non-judgemental names in all cases since that would mean I didn't > believe in badness. The point is that you've made a career out of malicious neologisms to demean and dismiss poetry and people you don't happen to like at any given moment. It's not a matter of my claiming you prefer non- judgmental names in all cases, it's a matter of my pointing out that you prefer maliciously judgmental names in all cases UNTIL this one. And my question, implicit in all I've said here, is why this case, Bob? What makes the title of the laurate a special case where you, of all people, prefer non-judgmental names? Marcus Bales wrote: > But even taking that you prefer non-judgmental names "in this > case", there's still the question of what makes this case > different from the cases in which you try to impose your malicious > neologism on the world through your faux-taxonomy, and in your > posts, and in conversation? Bob Grumman wrote: > ... I believe in making distinctions, and in the use of > names to make it easier to discuss things distinct from one > another. There are honest distinctions and malicious ones, Bob -- and your career of inventing malicious neologisms to try to mischaracterize poetry you don't happen to like at any given moment is not the way to make it easier to discuss things. Your obvious intent is to create bad feeling, and not at all to make it easier to discuss art and poetry. If you were serious about wanting to make such things easier to discuss you wouldn't have embarked on, nor would you continue, in the face of the obvious objection to it, to embrace your method of making malicious neologisms. Marcus From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Jan 23 08:40:36 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:40:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <006b01c50143$44fbb3b0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost> Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> I can't be unenvious of those who seem to me to have little > >> >> talent but are grandly rewarded, and I have trouble not being > >> >> hostile to the stasguards who leave my kind of poetry out of > >> >> anthologies, bigCirc magazines, college classes, etc.,--and--as > >> >> a result--to the kind of poetry they like (which is unfair of > >> >> me). I also find it hard psychologically to understand people > >> >> content to do what others before them have done. > > Marcus Bales wrote: > >> > You give up sex, too, Bob, because it's what others before you > >> > have done? Won't eat food made from a recipe anyone anywhere has > >> > ever made before? What a silly position it is to take in any area > >> > of human endeavor that you won't do something because it's what > >> > others before you have done! > > Bob Grumman wrote: > >> ... the fact that I didn't say, "I find > >> find it hard psychologically to understand people content to do > >> what others before them have done IN POETRY."< > > Marcus Bales wrote: > > Why is poetry a special case? That's the point of my satiric mockery > > of your view. You are claiming that poetry is a special case in > > which newness is prima facie better. Why? On what grounds? > Bob Grumman wrote: > I am not claiming poetry is a special case. I was speaking of poetry. > It was the case in this instance.< As soon as you say that newness is not a primary value in sex or food while at the same time saying newness is a primary value in poetry -- which is, after all, exactly what you have said -- you are making poetry a special case. > Nor, of course, did I say newness > is better. I said I had trouble understanding why others would not > value newness in poetry the way I did.< But your valuation of newness in poetry, your constant proselytizing for newness in poetry, the offense you take whenever anyone challenges your valuation of newness in poetry, the _context_, in short, Bob (remember "context", Bob?), in which you hold and present your valuation of newness in poetry, is an ongoing explicit claim that newness is better. We've had this discussion before when you used your "Fosbury Flop" analogy: you said that your kind of poetry is better than other kinds in the same way that the Fosbury Flop was better than other ways to high-jump over a bar. You hold that theater "progressed" when Aeschylus added a character, and presumably hold that it progressed again with Euripedes's innovations, as if there were no more one- or two-person plays ever written or performed again. Everything you say on this topic shows that you think your kind of poetry is not just different, but better. Bob Grumman wrote: > I would have the same trouble understanding an indifference to doing > something significantly new in any art or science.< But science, Bob, is just the same old stuff every time. The scientific method hasn't changed -- only what scientists have discovered using the same old method in the same old way has changed the world. Your analogy with science, come to think of it, doesn't even hold. Scientists are not doing "new" things -- they are using the same old scientific method in the same old way every time: observe, hypothesize, test; observe the results, re-hypothesize, test again. Observe, hypothesize, test, Bob -- the same old thing the same old way every time. It's not "new" in any sense of the word. > It's a matter of > temperment, as I've been saying. Intellectually, I can understand why > you only enjoy making poems like the ones made two hundred years ago > to such an extent that you refuse to consider any other kind of poem a > poem. Emotionally, I can't.< Not just 200 years ago, Bob, 2000, 20,000 years ago. Poetry is not about "new technique", and neither is any art. Technique is just something you use to achieve the same old effect: create meaning for, evoke feeling from, one's audience. If you can't do that, it doesn't matter what technique you use -- if you can't do that, you haven't cleared the bar whether you're using the Fosbury Flop or not. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 09:50:08 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:50:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggardshouldbe California'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F36304.20900.342AD4@localhost> Message-ID: <00bd01c5015a$d6745600$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> >> > On 22 Jan 2005 at 13:36, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> >> ... Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would >> >> >> prefer non-judgemental names. >> > On 22 Jan 2005 at 20:39, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> I would really prefer non-judgemental names IN THIS CASE... >> > > Marcus Bales wrote: >> > If you can't say what you mean, Bob, mean what you say. > > Bob Grumman wrote: >> I said exactly what I meant. Look at it again. I gave two names. >> THEN I said I'd prefer non-judgemental names. Only someone out to >> derail the discussion would think I could possibly mean that I >> preferred non-judgemental names ot all other names rather than TO >> THOSE JUST GIVEN.< > > No, Bob, in the context of your insistent malicious neologisms, your > constant and obvious intent to demean and dismiss all other kinds of > poetry than that which you write by use of those malicious > neologisms, among other techniques, nothing could be more ironic than > you saying you prefer "non-judgmental names" for categories of poets! > You have spent, by your own claim, 30 years making malicious > neologisms and using them to demean and dismiss poetry other than the > kind you happen to be writing at any given moment. The context in > which YOU claim to "prefer non-judgmental names" is the broader > context of your career of malicious neologism. I see: the context is not what the words on a page make it but your interpretation of my career. > Bob Grumman wrote: >> Moreover, I'd have to be insane to prefer >> non-judgemental names in all cases since that would mean I didn't >> believe in badness. > > The point is that you've made a career out of malicious neologisms to > demean and dismiss poetry and people you don't happen to like at any > given moment. It's not a matter of my claiming you prefer non- > judgmental names in all cases, it's a matter of my pointing out that > you prefer maliciously judgmental names in all cases UNTIL this one. visiophor--a graphic element in a visual poem which acts as a metaphor for a verbal element in the poem. Just one of my many non-judgemental names--unless you can demonstrate how it is judgemental rather than descriptive. Also, song-mode poet for poet using traditional auditory devices. What's judgemental there? Ah, yes, I remember. My name suggests such a poet is equal to other kinds of poets like burst-norm poets. That goes against your judgement that only such poets count, so is judgemental. The problem there, is that any name can be verosopathically interpretted as judgemental if such reasoning is allowed. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 10:07:40 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:07:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why MerleHaggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F36304.6508.342B24@localhost> Message-ID: <00c801c5015d$48ce67c0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob Grumman wrote: >> Nonetheless, I will go with the majority and continue to believe that >> Aeschylus improved the drama considerably by adding a second character >> to plays, thus allowing for exchanges between two characters, and >> significantly increasing the amount of thoughts and feelings that a >> play could express. Playwrights after him could still write plays with >> just the chorus and a main character, so nothing was lost. This is >> what I mean by progress in the arts.< > > I dispute that two characters necessarily and always results in > "significantly increasing the amount of thoughts and feelings that a > play could express". I didn't say that. If you're going to argue with me, argue with what I say. >That means, of course, that a cast of thousands > is necessarily a better play than a cast of one -- that the more > people you jam onstage the better your production must inevitably be. > It is simple-minded crap, Bob, and even you can do better than that -- > I hope -- in trying to argue for newness of technique as the primary > way to judge value in art. > > The point I'm making is that technique in art is not the primary > measure, or even an important one, but rather the primary measure of > the art is the effect of whatever technique, or techniques, one uses > on the audience. You're trying to say that the technique alone, just > by virtue of being something no one has ever done in public before, > is ipso facto good -- and more than good, better than anything that > has come before just because it's new. But that's obvious nonsense, > Bob. I say that the use of the new is ALWAYS good, NOT that it neceesarily makes for better poems. I certainly have never said that that new is better than anything previous to it; I say (not to you but to anyone able to read) that the new ADDS to what came before and thus improves an art. >New is better only if there is a standard for achievement > against which >all are accurately measurable against. What is that > standard, Bob? What is your standard for comparing your mathemaku > with Milton so that you say your work scores higher? > > Marcus If you were not indulging in verosopathy, Marcus, you wouldn't bring Milton into it. The standard I use in rating my mathemaku, in brief and off the top of my head, if you'll allow that, is how intensely, unifiedly, fully and freshly it expresses some archetypal human emotional truth in the least number of words or the equivalent of words to form a work of beauty. I give points for freshness of language, freshness of slant, freshness of subject matter, freshness of technique, vigor and appropriateness of sound and/or visual appearance, all things objectively measurable, or close to it. Whether a poem is archetypal can be objectively determined, too. Subjectivity can't be avoided, so I would defer to the consensus of serious readers of poetry--people, that is, known to have read a fair amount of poetry, commented on it and/or composed. it. There's much more to it, but that's a reasonable brief summary of my position. What's yours? What do you feel a poem should be or do to qualify as a worthy poem? Make Emily's garter belt change color? --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 10:12:30 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:12:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost> Message-ID: <00cb01c5015d$f5dd3b30$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In science we know more now than we did--because of new devices like telescopes and space probes. In the arts we are able to say more because of new devices like pianos and video cameras. In both science and the arts, we have made progress. That we continue to also use old methods with the new does not change that. And that's all I have to contribute to this discussion. --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Sun Jan 23 10:20:30 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:20:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost> Message-ID: <003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Re: >>>But your valuation of newness in poetry, your constant proselytizing for newness in poetry, the offense you take whenever anyone challenges your valuation of newness in poetry...<<< Not to mention Bob's definition of newness in poetry. He's not entirely wrong when he says that an artistic breakthrough such as the one made by Aeschylus makes an indelible change in the nature of art. Not in the same way that a scientific breakthrough changes science, by making everything before it essentially obsolete...but it's still an indelible change. In science, these changes are pretty straightforward to identify, and they don't have to be big changes. The discovery that the best way to treat certain sports injuries is the application of ice forever rendered obsolete the practice of applying heat to them.\ In the arts, they can be subjects of debate. The 20th century artists who I'd unequivocally list as making the grade are Joyce and Proust, Armstrong and Parker. But every gimmick is not artistic innovation, and everyone who doesn't create rebuses or reward rebuses is not an enemy of poetry. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> >> I can't be unenvious of those who seem to me to have little >> >> >> talent but are grandly rewarded, and I have trouble not being >> >> >> hostile to the stasguards who leave my kind of poetry out of >> >> >> anthologies, bigCirc magazines, college classes, etc.,--and--as >> >> >> a result--to the kind of poetry they like (which is unfair of >> >> >> me). I also find it hard psychologically to understand people >> >> >> content to do what others before them have done. >> > > Marcus Bales wrote: >> >> > You give up sex, too, Bob, because it's what others before you >> >> > have done? Won't eat food made from a recipe anyone anywhere has >> >> > ever made before? What a silly position it is to take in any area >> >> > of human endeavor that you won't do something because it's what >> >> > others before you have done! >> > > Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> ... the fact that I didn't say, "I find >> >> find it hard psychologically to understand people content to do >> >> what others before them have done IN POETRY."< >> > > Marcus Bales wrote: >> > Why is poetry a special case? That's the point of my satiric mockery >> > of your view. You are claiming that poetry is a special case in >> > which newness is prima facie better. Why? On what grounds? >> > Bob Grumman wrote: >> I am not claiming poetry is a special case. I was speaking of poetry. >> It was the case in this instance.< > > As soon as you say that newness is not a primary value in sex or food > while at the same time saying newness is a primary value in poetry -- > which is, after all, exactly what you have said -- you are making > poetry a special case. > >> Nor, of course, did I say newness >> is better. I said I had trouble understanding why others would not >> value newness in poetry the way I did.< > > But your valuation of newness in poetry, your constant proselytizing > for newness in poetry, the offense you take whenever anyone > challenges your valuation of newness in poetry, the _context_, in > short, Bob (remember "context", Bob?), in which you hold and present > your valuation of newness in poetry, is an ongoing explicit claim > that newness is better. We've had this discussion before when you > used your "Fosbury Flop" analogy: you said that your kind of poetry > is better than other kinds in the same way that the Fosbury Flop was > better than other ways to high-jump over a bar. You hold that theater > "progressed" when Aeschylus added a character, and presumably hold > that it progressed again with Euripedes's innovations, as if there > were no more one- or two-person plays ever written or performed > again. Everything you say on this topic shows that you think your > kind of poetry is not just different, but better. > > Bob Grumman wrote: >> I would have the same trouble understanding an indifference to doing >> something significantly new in any art or science.< > > But science, Bob, is just the same old stuff every time. The > scientific method hasn't changed -- only what scientists have > discovered using the same old method in the same old way has changed > the world. Your analogy with science, come to think of it, doesn't > even hold. Scientists are not doing "new" things -- they are using > the same old scientific method in the same old way every time: > observe, hypothesize, test; observe the results, re-hypothesize, test > again. Observe, hypothesize, test, Bob -- the same old thing the same > old way every time. It's not "new" in any sense of the word. > >> It's a matter of >> temperment, as I've been saying. Intellectually, I can understand why >> you only enjoy making poems like the ones made two hundred years ago >> to such an extent that you refuse to consider any other kind of poem a >> poem. Emotionally, I can't.< > > Not just 200 years ago, Bob, 2000, 20,000 years ago. Poetry is not > about "new technique", and neither is any art. Technique is just > something you use to achieve the same old effect: create meaning for, > evoke feeling from, one's audience. If you can't do that, it doesn't > matter what technique you use -- if you can't do that, you haven't > cleared the bar whether you're using the Fosbury Flop or not. > > Marcus > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Jan 23 10:36:03 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:36:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why MerleHaggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <00c801c5015d$48ce67c0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F37E13.8558.9DDFF7@localhost> Marcus Bales wrote: > > I dispute that two characters necessarily and always results in > > "significantly increasing the amount of thoughts and feelings that a > > play could express". > On 23 Jan 2005 at 10:07, Bob Grumman wrote: > I say that the use of the new is ALWAYS good, NOT that it neceesarily > makes for better poems.< It's nonsense to say that the use of the new is always good, right on the face of it. Change is simply not always good. If you stop arguing with me online and start stalking me in real life, that's certainly a change, that's certainly new, but it wouldn't be good, Bob. If your lover cuts off your penis, that would be a change, Bob, that would be new, Bob, but it wouldn't be good. It's the silliest argument in the world to claim that change is always good. > I certainly have never said that that new is > better than anything previous to it; I say (not to you but to anyone > able to read) that the new ADDS to what came before and thus improves > an art.< That's simply not true. Rapists and murderers could claim that their acts are art, new art, and would you accept that that ADDS to what came before and improves art? You've got it all wrong, Bob -- and it doesn't matter how many years you've spent being wrong, you're still wrong. Not everything new is good; not every change is good. Not everything new adds value -- some new things subtract value. > >New is better only if there is a standard for achievement > against > >which all are accurately measurable against. What is that > > standard, Bob? What is your standard for comparing your mathemaku > > with Milton so that you say your work scores higher? Bob Grumman wrote: > ... The standard I use in rating my mathemaku, in brief > and off the top of my head, if you'll allow that, is how intensely, > unifiedly, fully and freshly it expresses some archetypal human > emotional truth in the least number of words or the equivalent of > words to form a work of beauty.< But how do you place that endeavor in relation to, say, Milton? You cannot claim that it is "good" if you refuse to compare it to other things that the culture agrees is "good". You cannot start de novo, Bob, or you must start really de novo and invent your own language, forswearing English altogether. Why are you speaking English, Bob? Why are you using English words at all? Why are you using scientific notation, Bob? Why not invent your own notation? You're not doing anything new at all -- you're simply using the least effective and affective notation to try to manipulate words as if they were numbers -- and numbers are less effective and affective than words. You've taken the worst from two systems and jammed them together and produced something that impoverishes both. > I give points for freshness of > language, freshness of slant, freshness of subject matter, freshness > of technique, vigor and appropriateness of sound and/or visual > appearance, all things objectively measurable, or close to it. Whether > a poem is archetypal can be objectively determined, too. Subjectivity > can't be avoided, so I would defer to the consensus of serious readers > of poetry--people, that is, known to have read a fair amount of > poetry, commented on it and/or composed. it.< Well, Bob, that means you're appealing to the academics and the mainstream for approval of your experiments! LOL! The very academics and the very mainstream you so despise, demean, and dismiss with your malicious neologisms are the very people you seek to impress and defer to a consensus of? That's the best joke I've heard in weeks! And look at the facts as they are, Bob! The people you want to impress, the people you want to defer to, the people you demean and dismiss, say overwhelmingly that you're on the wrong path! If you really value the opinion of the "serious readers of poetry -- people, that is, known to have read a fair amount of poetry, commented on it and/or composed it", that is, academics and the mainstream, Bob -- you'll stop! Marcus > There's much more to it, but that's a reasonable brief summary of my > position. What's yours? What do you feel a poem should be or do to > qualify as a worthy poem? Make Emily's garter belt change color? > > --Bob G. > > > From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Jan 23 10:36:03 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:36:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <00cb01c5015d$f5dd3b30$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F37E13.32337.9DDF93@localhost> On 23 Jan 2005 at 10:12, Bob Grumman wrote: > In science we know more now than we did--because of new devices like > telescopes and space probes. In the arts we are able to say more > because of new devices like pianos and video cameras. In both science > and the arts, we have made progress. That we continue to also use old > methods with the new does not change that. New devices are not new methods, Bob. Your claim that your kind of poetry is a new method, like the Fosbury Flop was a new, and better, method for getting over the bar, is bogus. You're not even offering a new device in your mathemaku since all you're doing is substituting one notation for grammar for another -- and you didn't even invent the "new" notation! Instead you simply stole math notation and try to use English words within it, ignoring the facts that English words are much slipperier than the numbers they replace, and that the operands in math are much narrower. You've impoverished your language, not improved it, with your attempts to be new at the expense of being meaningful or significant. > And that's all I have to contribute to this discussion.< And a miniscule little it is, too -- there, at least, we can agree. Marcus From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Jan 23 10:55:08 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:55:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggardshouldbe California'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <00bd01c5015a$d6745600$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F3828C.18324.AF566B@localhost> > > No, Bob, in the context of your insistent malicious neologisms, your > > constant and obvious intent to demean and dismiss all other kinds of > > poetry than that which you write by use of those malicious > > neologisms, among other techniques, nothing could be more ironic > > than you saying you prefer "non-judgmental names" for categories of > > poets! You have spent, by your own claim, 30 years making malicious > > neologisms and using them to demean and dismiss poetry other than > > the kind you happen to be writing at any given moment. The context > > in which YOU claim to "prefer non-judgmental names" is the broader > > context of your career of malicious neologism. > On 23 Jan 2005 at 9:50, Bob Grumman wrote: > I see: the context is not what the words on a page make it but your > interpretation of my career. That's right, Bob -- the context is the context in which you write. That you have made a career of inventing malicious neologisms for poetry and people you don't happen to like at a given time makes it incredibly ironic that you would claim in any situation that you "prefer non-judgmental terms" -- because you've made it clear over your career and writing that you do NOT prefer non-judgmental terms. You prefer specifically judgmental terms, and you prefer them so much that you invent them and try to impose them on the world by using them over and over, like the big lie fallacy, to try to jab them into common use. > visiophor--a graphic element in a visual poem which acts as a metaphor > for a verbal element in the poem. What's judgmental there is the whole of it -- the notion that there is such a thing as a "visual poem" in the first place is a judgment of your own that is simply not in general use, one which the very group of "serious readers" to whom you say you would appeal reject. There is certainly visual art, and there is certainly visual art with words in it, and there are certainly metaphors within visual art, but for tens of thousands of years we've gotten along without "visiophor" by simply calling it "metaphor", whether in verbal or visual art. The judgmental aspect of your attempt to inveigle "visiophor" and its cohorts into the language is that you want YOUR judgment to be THE judgment. On 23 Jan 2005 at 9:50, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... Also, song-mode poet > for poet using traditional auditory devices. What's judgemental > there?< What's judgmental there is the same thing that's judgmental about "visiophor": you are trying to impose your judgment (in the case of "song-mode", your judgment that there is a valuable distinction between "song-mode" and "other types" of poetry in what you call a "taxonomy" in order to try to make the claim that since all the animals in one species or genus are equal to all the others, one kind of poetry is equal to any other kind of poetry, so that YOUR kind of poetry is equal to any other kind of poetry -- it's a pretty slick back-door rhetorical trick, but you're busted!) as the judgment. > Ah, yes, I remember. My name suggests such a poet is equal to other > kinds of poets like burst-norm poets. < No, it's that your neologism within your faux-taxonomy makes the claim that your "burst-norm" poetry is equal to "song-mode" poetry, and deserves as much acclaim. You're trying to lever your way into the canon by illegitimate means -- by merely renaming things rather than by making poetry that a whole lot of people over a whole lot of time admire and remember. > That goes against your > judgement that only such poets count, so is judgemental.< Yeah, but I'm not the one claiming to be non-judgmental, Bob. You are. You're the one claiming, against all the evidence, that you "prefer non-judgmental terms" when what you write and say simply and obviously contradicts that claim. You glory in inventing malicious neologisms to demean and dismiss poetry you don't happen to like -- and the irony of your claim that you, of all people, prefer "non- judgmental terms" is laughable. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 11:02:58 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:02:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost> <003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00fc01c50165$0243ce50$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I'd unequivocally list as making the grade are Joyce and Proust, Armstrong > and Parker. Just what did Proust do that was innovative? I admit to not ever getting through the mama's boy intro though I've tried three times. But I read enough to see that he wasn't doing anything other novelists hadn't done. > But every gimmick is not artistic innovation, and everyone who doesn't > create rebuses or reward rebuses is not an enemy of poetry. I never said they were. Enemies of Poetry are those who refuse to acknowledge the existence of poems similar to rebuses or the scores of other poems that use colors or shapes or non-verbal sounds or mathematics or computer language or pictures or cryptography or misspellings or any other number of things that stasguards ignore the potential of. Anyone who writes off all of burstnorm poetry as "rebuses" is certainly an enemy of poetry. --Bob G. From lesrho at fullnet.net Sun Jan 23 08:29:34 2005 From: lesrho at fullnet.net (LesRho) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:29:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 26 References: <200501222220.j0MMK7Al029566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <001001c50165$62203610$2419e2d8@retiredud69srz> RE: California Poet Laureate I've read on this site that poetry isn't read much anymore and it was implied that there is very little commercial value to poetry. Why would anyone write poetry only to have it gather dust along with the other "rhymes" in the three inch thick file folder taking up space in an already overcrowded file drawer? If Merle Haggard and Buck Owens are not "real" poets then can someone explain how that "rap artist" who was on SNL last night (riduculous or some such name) be considered a poet? If he and others like EMnm are poets they sure have changed poetry into a commercial venture then all of us who write poetry for common consumption and not for fame or money should get on that wagon or get off . Poetry is food for the emotions but it appears that mankind is overstuffed emotionally. I wonder if there is such a thing as closet poets who really don't want to be published for fear of possibly having to explain what they are saying or to defend a premise. Poetry as I see it on this site does appear to be for the experienced or the elite; where's the novice to go to find a stump? LE----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:20 PM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 26 > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. New Poetry (LesRho) > 2. Re: Why Merle Haggard should be California'snextpoetlaureate > (Bob Grumman) > 3. Re: New Poetry (Bob Grumman) > 4. Poems by others: Denise Levertov, "Misnomer" +2 (Halvard Johnson) > 5. Re: New Poetry (Jeff Newberry) > 6. Re: Why Merle Haggard should be California's nextpoetlaureate > (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > 7. Re: Why Merle Haggard should beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > (The Old Mole) > 8. Re: California'snextpoetlaureate (MillB at aol.com) > 9. Re: Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > (Bob Grumman) > 10. RE: Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > (Halvard Johnson) > 11. RE: California'snextpoetlaureate (Halvard Johnson) > 12. Re: California'snextpoetlaureate (MillB at aol.com) > 13. Re: California'snextpoetlaureate (The Old Mole) > 14. Re: ancient chart (The Old Mole) > 15. RE: California'snextpoetlaureate (Halvard Johnson) > 16. Re: California'snextpoetlaureate (Anny Ballardini) > 17. Re: ancient chart (Anny Ballardini) > 18. Re: ancient chart (Bob Grumman) > 19. RE: ancient chart (Halvard Johnson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:41:54 -0600 > From: "LesRho" > Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry > To: > Message-ID: <002401c500a9$cbc7f740$8506e2d8 at retiredud69srz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > If a new poem is submitted to this site what happens to it? I do believe that Merle > Haggard should be the California Poet Laureate. The people of Oklahoma would > probably vote for him if they could because of "Okie From Muskogee" if for no other reason. > > Les Easley > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/684c9593/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:36:19 -0500 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be > California'snextpoetlaureate > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <017401c500b1$43e8aa60$43b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. > > --Bob G. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/65e03377/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:38:00 -0500 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Poetry > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <01a601c500b1$8078f7f0$43b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Poems are not "submitted" to this site. If you want a poem to be seen at the site, you simply post it. But the management would appreciate your not posting more than one a month, or something like that. (I'm not the management.) > > --Bob G. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: LesRho > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 12:41 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry > > > If a new poem is submitted to this site what happens to it? I do believe that Merle > Haggard should be the California Poet Laureate. The people of Oklahoma would > probably vote for him if they could because of "Okie From Muskogee" if for no other reason. > > Les Easley > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/7ca893f7/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:46:58 -0500 > From: "Halvard Johnson" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Denise Levertov, "Misnomer" +2 > To: "New-Poetry" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > In California During the Gulf War > > Among the blight-killed eucalypts, among > trees and bushes rusted by Christmas frosts, > the years and hillsides exhausted by five years of drought, > > certain airy white blossoms punctually > reappeared, and dense clusters of pale pink, dark pink-- > a delicate abundance. They seemed > > like guests arriving joyfully on the accustomed > festival day, unaware of the year's events, not perceiving > the sackcloth others were wearing. > > To some of us, the dejected landscape consorted well > with our shame and bitterness. Skies ever-blue, > daily sunshine, disgusted us like smile-buttons. > > Yet the blossoms, clinging to the branches > more lightly than birds alert for flight, > lifted the sunken heart > > even against its will. > But not > as symbols of hope: they were flimsy > as our resistance to the crimes committed > > --again, again--in our name; and yes, they return, > year after year, and yes, they briefly shone with serene joy > over against the dark glare > > of evil days. They *are*, and their presence > is quietness ineffable--and the bombings *are*, were, > no doubt will be; that quiet, that huge cacophany > > simultaneous. No promise was being accorded, the blossoms > were not doves, there was no rainbow. And when it was claimed > the war had ended, it had not ended. > > ===== > > Misnomer > > They speak of the art of war > but the arts > draw their light from the soul's well, > and warfare > dries up the soul and draws its power > from a dark and burning wasteland. > When Leonardo > set his genius to devising > machines of destruction he was not > acting in the service of art, > he was suspending > the life of art > over an abyss, > as if one were to hold > a living child out of an airplane window > at thirty thousand feet. > > === > > News Report, September 1991 > > U.S. Buried Iraqi Soldiers Alive in Gulf War > > "*What you saw was a > bunch of trenches with > arms sticking out.*" > "Plows mounted on > tanks. Combat > earthmovers." > "Defiant." > "Buried." > "Carefully planned and > rehearsed." > "*When we > went through there wasn't > anybody left.*" > "Awarded > Silver Star." > "Reporters > banned." > "Not a single > American killed." > "Bodycount > impossible." > "*For all I know, > thousands,* said > Colonel Moreno." > "*What you > saw was a bunch of > buried trenches > with people's > arms and things > sticking out.*" > "Secretary Cheney > made no mention." > "Every single American > was inside > the juggernaut > impervious > to small-arms > fire." "*I know > burying people > like that sounds > pretty nasty,* said > Colonel Maggart, > "But . . . . *" > "His force buried > about six hundred > and fifty > in a thinner line > of trenches." > "*People's arms > sticking out.*" > "Every American > inside." > "The juggernaut." > "*I'm not > going to sacrifice > the lives > of my soldiers,* > Moreno said, "it's not > cost-effective.*" > "*The tactic was designed > to terrorize,* > Lieutenant Colonel Hawkins > said, who helped > devise it." > "Schwartzkopf's staff > privately > estimated fifty to seventy > thousand killed > in the trenches." > "Private Joe Queen was > awarded > a Bronze Star for burying > trenches with his > earthmover." > "Inside > the juggernaut." > "Impervious." > "*A lot of the guys > were scared,* he said, > *but I > enjoyed it.*" > "*A bunch of > trenches. People's > arms and things > sticking out.*" > "*Cost-effective.*" > > --Denise Levertov > > fr. *Evening Train* > [New York: New Directions, 1992] > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:54:59 -0800 (PST) > From: Jeff Newberry > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Poetry > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > Message-ID: <20050122185459.37027.qmail at web52603.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Exactly. > > Bob's right. We (most of us, probably) would welcome > a posted poem, but we also appreciate it if you don't > post any more than one of your own per month. > > We talk at lenght *about* poetry, and I'd like to > believe that this list is for poetry lovers as well as > poets in general. > > Jeff N. > > > --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Poems are not "submitted" to this site. If you want > > a poem to be seen at the site, you simply post it. > > But the management would appreciate your not posting > > more than one a month, or something like that. (I'm > > not the management.) > > > > --Bob G. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: LesRho > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 12:41 PM > > Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry > > > > > > If a new poem is submitted to this site what > > happens to it? I do believe that Merle > > Haggard should be the California Poet Laureate. > > The people of Oklahoma would > > probably vote for him if they could because of > > "Okie From Muskogee" if for no other reason. > > > > Les Easley > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > ===== > Jeff Newberry > > "Sometimes it's not so easy, > especially when your only friend > talks, sees, looks and feels like you, > and you do just the same as him." > --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:08:56 EST > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's > nextpoetlaureate > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <76.4b233738.2f23fec8 at cs.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Buck! Yes! > > Artist Lyrics: Buck Owens > Song Lyrics: I Wouldn'T Live In New York City > Album Lyrics: > [Buy " " CD] > > It ain't nothin' but a concrete jungle with people packed like sardines > Where everybody's tryin' to live beyond their means > Where all the natives hurry and scurry too and fro > And like a fleas on a puppy dog they got no place to go > I wouldn't live in New York City if they gave me the whole dang town > Talk about a bummer it's the biggest one around > Sodom and Gommorah was tame to what I found > I wouldn't live in New York City if they gave me the whole dang town > Well I ain't seen the sunshine since the day that I arrived > Cause brother I've been busy a tryin' to survive > Nobody knows you've been here till you're six feet under ground > Than you become a statistic if they remember to write you down > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/74d81c9e/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:46:02 -0500 > From: "The Old Mole" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should > beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <004c01c500bb$03cd7cd0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Even given the inanity of the comparison, I'm not sure I'd agree. If California were choosing a scientist laureate, as opposed to a distinguished chair of science at a university, they'd probably do well to choose someone whose contributions were well known and significant to the general public. > > I don't believe that this issue of received vs new techniques should even be raised in selecting a poet laureate. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:36 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > > > It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. > > --Bob G. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/9799128c/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:08:01 EST > From: MillB at aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <80.1fb9a384.2f240ca1 at aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > After what happened with Quincy Troupe, I am imagining that the next Poet > Laureate will be of solid (verified) academic stock: Someone along the lines > of David St John or Chase Twitchell. Although Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Charles > Harper Webb, Gerald Locklin or Frank Gaspar would be nice.. .Carolyn Kizer? > > Do the poets have to be native-born? or have lived in Calif. for a certain > umber of years? A lot of good poets were eliminated from a recent California > anthologies because they were not natives, or had lived fewer than ten years > in the state. > > Has anyone on this list gone through the process of nominating the Calif. > Poet Laureate? > > Cheers, > > Mill > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/27ebaf70/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:53:43 -0500 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard > shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <020101c500c4$76169a70$43b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > However inane the comparison, it is a FACT that there are two kinds of poets extant--those writing poetry at the level that scientists build and test theories, and those writing poetry at or below the level of those using received science to build bridges and airplanes. The best way to go with a laureateship, it seems to me, would be to have two. One for Merle or Buck, and one for someone who is writing superior poetry--and maybe even doing something to improve his field the way the best scientists improve their fields. > > --Bob G. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: The Old Mole > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:46 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > > > Even given the inanity of the comparison, I'm not sure I'd agree. If California were choosing a scientist laureate, as opposed to a distinguished chair of science at a university, they'd probably do well to choose someone whose contributions were well known and significant to the general public. > > I don't believe that this issue of received vs new techniques should even be raised in selecting a poet laureate. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:36 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > > > It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. > > --Bob G. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/61253d72/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:57:49 -0500 > From: "Halvard Johnson" > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard > shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hmm, now you guys have gotten me wondering how them > Montana-ites are fixing to pick theirs. Hmm. > > Hal > Even given the inanity of the comparison, I'm not sure I'd agree. If > California were choosing a scientist laureate, as opposed to a distinguished > chair of science at a university, they'd probably do well to choose someone > whose contributions were well known and significant to the general public. > > I don't believe that this issue of received vs new techniques should even > be raised in selecting a poet laureate. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:36 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should > beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > > > It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied > poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who > use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers > versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I > don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count > for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel and > laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. > > --Bob G. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/fc2ff5be/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:59:56 -0500 > From: "Halvard Johnson" > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Hmm, hasn't Gary Snyder lived in California long enough to make > your list, Mill, eh? Hmm. > > Hal > After what happened with Quincy Troupe, I am imagining that the next Poet > Laureate will be of solid (verified) academic stock: Someone along the > lines of David St John or Chase Twitchell. Although Lawrence Ferlinghetti, > Charles Harper Webb, Gerald Locklin or Frank Gaspar would be nice.. .Carolyn > Kizer? > > Do the poets have to be native-born? or have lived in Calif. for a certain > umber of years? A lot of good poets were eliminated from a recent > California anthologies because they were not natives, or had lived fewer > than ten years in the state. > > Has anyone on this list gone through the process of nominating the Calif. > Poet Laureate? > > Cheers, > > Mill > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/f2877453/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:19:19 EST > From: MillB at aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Of course, Hal, but someone already mentioned Gary Snyder! > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/62bc830d/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:30:42 -0500 > From: "The Old Mole" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <002701c500c9$a3a28210$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > What about Philip Levine for Cal longevity? > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 3:59 PM > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate > > > > Hmm, hasn't Gary Snyder lived in California long enough to make > your list, Mill, eh? Hmm. > > Hal > After what happened with Quincy Troupe, I am imagining that the next Poet Laureate will be of solid (verified) academic stock: Someone along the lines of David St John or Chase Twitchell. Although Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Charles Harper Webb, Gerald Locklin or Frank Gaspar would be nice.. .Carolyn Kizer? > > Do the poets have to be native-born? or have lived in Calif. for a certain umber of years? A lot of good poets were eliminated from a recent California anthologies because they were not natives, or had lived fewer than ten years in the state. > > Has anyone on this list gone through the process of nominating the Calif. Poet Laureate? > > Cheers, > > Mill > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/71783c9c/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:31:42 -0500 > From: "The Old Mole" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <006a01c500c9$def630f0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > This chart is now my computer's wallpaper/ > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: New Poetry > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart > > > I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very beautiful: > http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg > > he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: > http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg > > it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been switched on, ... > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/a5b791a8/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:30:23 -0500 > From: "Halvard Johnson" > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Dagnab it, Mill. I first read badly when I was seventeen, and > I thought, that day I started, I sure would hate to do this all > my life. And dammit, that's just what I've gone and done. > > Hal > > > Of course, Hal, but someone already mentioned Gary Snyder! > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/a9de3fa1/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:46:31 +0100 > From: "Anny Ballardini" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <010601c500cb$d63425b0$85a83852 at yourpk9x5fuc06> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Also Ferlinghetti was previously mentioned, but Mill repeated him again. > Yes, I know there are plenty of nasty characters of which I remind you in this moment, sorry. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:30 PM > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate > > > > Dagnab it, Mill. I first read badly when I was seventeen, and > I thought, that day I started, I sure would hate to do this all > my life. And dammit, that's just what I've gone and done. > > Hal > > > Of course, Hal, but someone already mentioned Gary Snyder! > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/3d9c9782/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:16:38 +0100 > From: "Anny Ballardini" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <007901c500d0$0b0212d0$85a83852 at yourpk9x5fuc06> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > With Alan's permission, I now feature it also on the Poets' Corner: > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=958 > > > > From: The Old Mole > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:31 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart > > > This chart is now my computer's wallpaper/ > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: New Poetry > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart > > > I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very beautiful: > http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg > > he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: > http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg > > it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been switched on, ... > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/f87f9243/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:16:57 -0500 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <028201c500d0$16cf2940$43b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > They should make Ferlinghetti Retroactive California Poet Laureate, 1950--1980, give Snyder 1980-1990 and some other long-passed poet 1990-2004, and give the new one to a poet doing something interesting in poetry, like Karl Kempton. > > --Bob G. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: The Old Mole > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:31 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart > > > This chart is now my computer's wallpaper/ > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: New Poetry > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart > > > I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very beautiful: > http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg > > he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: > http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg > > it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been switched on, ... > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/12c067e5/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:18:20 -0500 > From: "Halvard Johnson" > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] ancient chart > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Now that "yung" is up, can "froid" be far behind? > > [Note: "Froid" is how "Freud" was spelt in a transcript I read > long ago, while serving my time in Chicago, of hearings by the > Illinois State Committee on Un-American Activities (that may > not have been the precise name, but it's close). The Illinois > hearings neatly paralleled those held in DC by Sen. McCarthy > & co.] > > Hal > With Alan's permission, I now feature it also on the Poets' Corner: > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=958 > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: New Poetry > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart > > > I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very > beautiful: > http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg > > he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: > http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg > > it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here > it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been > switched on, ... > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather > admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/9a06b813/attachment.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 26 > ***************************************** > From tad at opus40.org Sun Jan 23 11:12:15 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:12:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost><003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <00fc01c50165$0243ce50$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005301c50166$507ba6a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Then you didn't read enough. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> I'd unequivocally list as making the grade are Joyce and Proust, >> Armstrong and Parker. > > Just what did Proust do that was innovative? I admit to not ever getting > through the mama's boy intro though I've tried three times. But I read > enough to see that he wasn't doing anything other novelists hadn't done. > > >> But every gimmick is not artistic innovation, and everyone who doesn't >> create rebuses or reward rebuses is not an enemy of poetry. > > > I never said they were. Enemies of Poetry are those who refuse to > acknowledge the existence of poems similar to rebuses or the scores of > other poems that use colors or shapes or non-verbal sounds or mathematics > or computer language or pictures or cryptography or misspellings or any > other number of things that stasguards ignore the potential of. Anyone > who writes off all of burstnorm poetry as "rebuses" is certainly an enemy > of poetry. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Sun Jan 23 11:13:09 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:13:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 26 References: <200501222220.j0MMK7Al029566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001001c50165$62203610$2419e2d8@retiredud69srz> Message-ID: <005801c50166$70805e00$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Those who don't consider Merle Haggard as poetry generally don't consider Eminem as poetry either. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "LesRho" To: Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:29 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 26 > RE: California Poet Laureate > > I've read on this site that poetry isn't read much anymore and it was > implied that there > is very little commercial value to poetry. Why would anyone write poetry > only to > have it gather dust along with the other "rhymes" in the three inch thick > file folder > taking up space in an already overcrowded file drawer? If Merle Haggard > and > Buck > Owens are not "real" poets then can someone explain how that "rap artist" > who was > on SNL last night (riduculous or some such name) be considered a poet? If > he > and > others like EMnm are poets they sure have changed poetry into a commercial > venture > then all of us who write poetry for common consumption and not for fame or > money > should get on that wagon or get off . Poetry is food for the emotions but > it appears > that mankind is overstuffed emotionally. I wonder if there is such a > thing > as closet > poets who really don't want to be published for fear of possibly having to > explain > what they are saying or to defend a premise. Poetry as I see it on this > site > does appear > to be for the experienced or the elite; where's the novice to go to find a > stump? LE----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:20 PM > Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 26 > > >> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. New Poetry (LesRho) >> 2. Re: Why Merle Haggard should be California'snextpoetlaureate >> (Bob Grumman) >> 3. Re: New Poetry (Bob Grumman) >> 4. Poems by others: Denise Levertov, "Misnomer" +2 (Halvard Johnson) >> 5. Re: New Poetry (Jeff Newberry) >> 6. Re: Why Merle Haggard should be California's nextpoetlaureate >> (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) >> 7. Re: Why Merle Haggard should beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> (The Old Mole) >> 8. Re: California'snextpoetlaureate (MillB at aol.com) >> 9. Re: Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> (Bob Grumman) >> 10. RE: Why Merle Haggard shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> (Halvard Johnson) >> 11. RE: California'snextpoetlaureate (Halvard Johnson) >> 12. Re: California'snextpoetlaureate (MillB at aol.com) >> 13. Re: California'snextpoetlaureate (The Old Mole) >> 14. Re: ancient chart (The Old Mole) >> 15. RE: California'snextpoetlaureate (Halvard Johnson) >> 16. Re: California'snextpoetlaureate (Anny Ballardini) >> 17. Re: ancient chart (Anny Ballardini) >> 18. Re: ancient chart (Bob Grumman) >> 19. RE: ancient chart (Halvard Johnson) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:41:54 -0600 >> From: "LesRho" >> Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry >> To: >> Message-ID: <002401c500a9$cbc7f740$8506e2d8 at retiredud69srz> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> If a new poem is submitted to this site what happens to it? I do believe > that Merle >> Haggard should be the California Poet Laureate. The people of Oklahoma > would >> probably vote for him if they could because of "Okie From Muskogee" if > for no other reason. >> >> Les Easley >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/684c9593/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:36:19 -0500 >> From: "Bob Grumman" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be >> California'snextpoetlaureate >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: <017401c500b1$43e8aa60$43b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied > poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who > use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers > versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I > don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count > for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel > and > laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. >> >> --Bob G. >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/65e03377/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:38:00 -0500 >> From: "Bob Grumman" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Poetry >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: <01a601c500b1$8078f7f0$43b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Poems are not "submitted" to this site. If you want a poem to be seen at > the site, you simply post it. But the management would appreciate your > not > posting more than one a month, or something like that. (I'm not the > management.) >> >> --Bob G. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: LesRho >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 12:41 PM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry >> >> >> If a new poem is submitted to this site what happens to it? I do >> believe > that Merle >> Haggard should be the California Poet Laureate. The people of Oklahoma > would >> probably vote for him if they could because of "Okie From Muskogee" if > for no other reason. >> >> Les Easley >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/7ca893f7/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:46:58 -0500 >> From: "Halvard Johnson" >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Denise Levertov, "Misnomer" +2 >> To: "New-Poetry" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" >> >> >> In California During the Gulf War >> >> Among the blight-killed eucalypts, among >> trees and bushes rusted by Christmas frosts, >> the years and hillsides exhausted by five years of drought, >> >> certain airy white blossoms punctually >> reappeared, and dense clusters of pale pink, dark pink-- >> a delicate abundance. They seemed >> >> like guests arriving joyfully on the accustomed >> festival day, unaware of the year's events, not perceiving >> the sackcloth others were wearing. >> >> To some of us, the dejected landscape consorted well >> with our shame and bitterness. Skies ever-blue, >> daily sunshine, disgusted us like smile-buttons. >> >> Yet the blossoms, clinging to the branches >> more lightly than birds alert for flight, >> lifted the sunken heart >> >> even against its will. >> But not >> as symbols of hope: they were flimsy >> as our resistance to the crimes committed >> >> --again, again--in our name; and yes, they return, >> year after year, and yes, they briefly shone with serene joy >> over against the dark glare >> >> of evil days. They *are*, and their presence >> is quietness ineffable--and the bombings *are*, were, >> no doubt will be; that quiet, that huge cacophany >> >> simultaneous. No promise was being accorded, the blossoms >> were not doves, there was no rainbow. And when it was claimed >> the war had ended, it had not ended. >> >> ===== >> >> Misnomer >> >> They speak of the art of war >> but the arts >> draw their light from the soul's well, >> and warfare >> dries up the soul and draws its power >> from a dark and burning wasteland. >> When Leonardo >> set his genius to devising >> machines of destruction he was not >> acting in the service of art, >> he was suspending >> the life of art >> over an abyss, >> as if one were to hold >> a living child out of an airplane window >> at thirty thousand feet. >> >> === >> >> News Report, September 1991 >> >> U.S. Buried Iraqi Soldiers Alive in Gulf War >> >> "*What you saw was a >> bunch of trenches with >> arms sticking out.*" >> "Plows mounted on >> tanks. Combat >> earthmovers." >> "Defiant." >> "Buried." >> "Carefully planned and >> rehearsed." >> "*When we >> went through there wasn't >> anybody left.*" >> "Awarded >> Silver Star." >> "Reporters >> banned." >> "Not a single >> American killed." >> "Bodycount >> impossible." >> "*For all I know, >> thousands,* said >> Colonel Moreno." >> "*What you >> saw was a bunch of >> buried trenches >> with people's >> arms and things >> sticking out.*" >> "Secretary Cheney >> made no mention." >> "Every single American >> was inside >> the juggernaut >> impervious >> to small-arms >> fire." "*I know >> burying people >> like that sounds >> pretty nasty,* said >> Colonel Maggart, >> "But . . . . *" >> "His force buried >> about six hundred >> and fifty >> in a thinner line >> of trenches." >> "*People's arms >> sticking out.*" >> "Every American >> inside." >> "The juggernaut." >> "*I'm not >> going to sacrifice >> the lives >> of my soldiers,* >> Moreno said, "it's not >> cost-effective.*" >> "*The tactic was designed >> to terrorize,* >> Lieutenant Colonel Hawkins >> said, who helped >> devise it." >> "Schwartzkopf's staff >> privately >> estimated fifty to seventy >> thousand killed >> in the trenches." >> "Private Joe Queen was >> awarded >> a Bronze Star for burying >> trenches with his >> earthmover." >> "Inside >> the juggernaut." >> "Impervious." >> "*A lot of the guys >> were scared,* he said, >> *but I >> enjoyed it.*" >> "*A bunch of >> trenches. People's >> arms and things >> sticking out.*" >> "*Cost-effective.*" >> >> --Denise Levertov >> >> fr. *Evening Train* >> [New York: New Directions, 1992] >> >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> =============== >> email: halvard at earthlink.net >> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:54:59 -0800 (PST) >> From: Jeff Newberry >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Poetry >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" >> >> Message-ID: <20050122185459.37027.qmail at web52603.mail.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Exactly. >> >> Bob's right. We (most of us, probably) would welcome >> a posted poem, but we also appreciate it if you don't >> post any more than one of your own per month. >> >> We talk at lenght *about* poetry, and I'd like to >> believe that this list is for poetry lovers as well as >> poets in general. >> >> Jeff N. >> >> >> --- Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> > Poems are not "submitted" to this site. If you want >> > a poem to be seen at the site, you simply post it. >> > But the management would appreciate your not posting >> > more than one a month, or something like that. (I'm >> > not the management.) >> > >> > --Bob G. >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: LesRho >> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 12:41 PM >> > Subject: [New-Poetry] New Poetry >> > >> > >> > If a new poem is submitted to this site what >> > happens to it? I do believe that Merle >> > Haggard should be the California Poet Laureate. >> > The people of Oklahoma would >> > probably vote for him if they could because of >> > "Okie From Muskogee" if for no other reason. >> > >> > Les Easley >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> >> >> ===== >> Jeff Newberry >> >> "Sometimes it's not so easy, >> especially when your only friend >> talks, sees, looks and feels like you, >> and you do just the same as him." >> --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:08:56 EST >> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should be California's >> nextpoetlaureate >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Message-ID: <76.4b233738.2f23fec8 at cs.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Buck! Yes! >> >> Artist Lyrics: Buck Owens >> Song Lyrics: I Wouldn'T Live In New York City >> Album Lyrics: >> [Buy " " CD] >> >> It ain't nothin' but a concrete jungle with people packed like sardines >> Where everybody's tryin' to live beyond their means >> Where all the natives hurry and scurry too and fro >> And like a fleas on a puppy dog they got no place to go >> I wouldn't live in New York City if they gave me the whole dang town >> Talk about a bummer it's the biggest one around >> Sodom and Gommorah was tame to what I found >> I wouldn't live in New York City if they gave me the whole dang town >> Well I ain't seen the sunshine since the day that I arrived >> Cause brother I've been busy a tryin' to survive >> Nobody knows you've been here till you're six feet under ground >> Than you become a statistic if they remember to write you down >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/74d81c9e/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:46:02 -0500 >> From: "The Old Mole" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should >> beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: <004c01c500bb$03cd7cd0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Even given the inanity of the comparison, I'm not sure I'd agree. If > California were choosing a scientist laureate, as opposed to a > distinguished > chair of science at a university, they'd probably do well to choose > someone > whose contributions were well known and significant to the general public. >> >> I don't believe that this issue of received vs new techniques should even > be raised in selecting a poet laureate. >> >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bob Grumman >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should > beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> >> >> It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for applied > poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those who > use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers > versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, I > don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would count > for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel > and > laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/9799128c/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:08:01 EST >> From: MillB at aol.com >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Message-ID: <80.1fb9a384.2f240ca1 at aol.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> After what happened with Quincy Troupe, I am imagining that the next Poet >> Laureate will be of solid (verified) academic stock: Someone along the > lines >> of David St John or Chase Twitchell. Although Lawrence Ferlinghetti, > Charles >> Harper Webb, Gerald Locklin or Frank Gaspar would be nice.. .Carolyn > Kizer? >> >> Do the poets have to be native-born? or have lived in Calif. for a >> certain >> umber of years? A lot of good poets were eliminated from a recent > California >> anthologies because they were not natives, or had lived fewer than ten > years >> in the state. >> >> Has anyone on this list gone through the process of nominating the Calif. >> Poet Laureate? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mill >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/27ebaf70/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:53:43 -0500 >> From: "Bob Grumman" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard >> shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: <020101c500c4$76169a70$43b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> However inane the comparison, it is a FACT that there are two kinds of > poets extant--those writing poetry at the level that scientists build and > test theories, and those writing poetry at or below the level of those > using > received science to build bridges and airplanes. The best way to go with > a > laureateship, it seems to me, would be to have two. One for Merle or > Buck, > and one for someone who is writing superior poetry--and maybe even doing > something to improve his field the way the best scientists improve their > fields. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: The Old Mole >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:46 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard > shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> >> >> Even given the inanity of the comparison, I'm not sure I'd agree. If > California were choosing a scientist laureate, as opposed to a > distinguished > chair of science at a university, they'd probably do well to choose > someone > whose contributions were well known and significant to the general public. >> >> I don't believe that this issue of received vs new techniques should > even be raised in selecting a poet laureate. >> >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bob Grumman >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should > beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> >> >> It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for > applied poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and > those who use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. > Engineers versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist > laureate, I don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work > would count for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. > Hmmm, > minstrel and laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/61253d72/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 10 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:57:49 -0500 >> From: "Halvard Johnson" >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard >> shouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hmm, now you guys have gotten me wondering how them >> Montana-ites are fixing to pick theirs. Hmm. >> >> Hal >> Even given the inanity of the comparison, I'm not sure I'd agree. If >> California were choosing a scientist laureate, as opposed to a > distinguished >> chair of science at a university, they'd probably do well to choose > someone >> whose contributions were well known and significant to the general >> public. >> >> I don't believe that this issue of received vs new techniques should > even >> be raised in selecting a poet laureate. >> >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bob Grumman >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle Haggard should >> beCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate >> >> >> It seems more and more to me that we need two new terms, on for > applied >> poets who use received techniques to entertain ordinary folk and those >> who >> use new techniques to entertain sophisticates . . . or no one. Engineers >> versus scientists. If California was out to elect a scientist laureate, >> I >> don't think the number of ordinary people who enjoyed his work would >> count >> for much. Nor should it in determining a poet laureate. Hmmm, minstrel > and >> laureadeur. But I really would prefer non-judgemental names. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/fc2ff5be/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 11 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:59:56 -0500 >> From: "Halvard Johnson" >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >> Hmm, hasn't Gary Snyder lived in California long enough to make >> your list, Mill, eh? Hmm. >> >> Hal >> After what happened with Quincy Troupe, I am imagining that the next > Poet >> Laureate will be of solid (verified) academic stock: Someone along the >> lines of David St John or Chase Twitchell. Although Lawrence >> Ferlinghetti, >> Charles Harper Webb, Gerald Locklin or Frank Gaspar would be nice.. > .Carolyn >> Kizer? >> >> Do the poets have to be native-born? or have lived in Calif. for a > certain >> umber of years? A lot of good poets were eliminated from a recent >> California anthologies because they were not natives, or had lived fewer >> than ten years in the state. >> >> Has anyone on this list gone through the process of nominating the > Calif. >> Poet Laureate? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mill >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/f2877453/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 12 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:19:19 EST >> From: MillB at aol.com >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Of course, Hal, but someone already mentioned Gary Snyder! >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/62bc830d/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 13 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:30:42 -0500 >> From: "The Old Mole" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: <002701c500c9$a3a28210$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> What about Philip Levine for Cal longevity? >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 3:59 PM >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate >> >> >> >> Hmm, hasn't Gary Snyder lived in California long enough to make >> your list, Mill, eh? Hmm. >> >> Hal >> After what happened with Quincy Troupe, I am imagining that the next > Poet Laureate will be of solid (verified) academic stock: Someone along > the > lines of David St John or Chase Twitchell. Although Lawrence Ferlinghetti, > Charles Harper Webb, Gerald Locklin or Frank Gaspar would be nice.. > .Carolyn > Kizer? >> >> Do the poets have to be native-born? or have lived in Calif. for a > certain umber of years? A lot of good poets were eliminated from a recent > California anthologies because they were not natives, or had lived fewer > than ten years in the state. >> >> Has anyone on this list gone through the process of nominating the > Calif. Poet Laureate? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mill >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/71783c9c/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 14 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:31:42 -0500 >> From: "The Old Mole" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: <006a01c500c9$def630f0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> This chart is now my computer's wallpaper/ >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Anny Ballardini >> To: New Poetry >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart >> >> >> I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very >> beautiful: >> http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg >> >> he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first one: >> http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg >> >> it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. Here > it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been > switched on, ... >> >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather > admirers. >> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/a5b791a8/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 15 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:30:23 -0500 >> From: "Halvard Johnson" >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >> Dagnab it, Mill. I first read badly when I was seventeen, and >> I thought, that day I started, I sure would hate to do this all >> my life. And dammit, that's just what I've gone and done. >> >> Hal >> >> >> Of course, Hal, but someone already mentioned Gary Snyder! >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/a9de3fa1/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 16 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:46:31 +0100 >> From: "Anny Ballardini" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: <010601c500cb$d63425b0$85a83852 at yourpk9x5fuc06> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Also Ferlinghetti was previously mentioned, but Mill repeated him again. >> Yes, I know there are plenty of nasty characters of which I remind you in > this moment, sorry. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:30 PM >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] California'snextpoetlaureate >> >> >> >> Dagnab it, Mill. I first read badly when I was seventeen, and >> I thought, that day I started, I sure would hate to do this all >> my life. And dammit, that's just what I've gone and done. >> >> Hal >> >> >> Of course, Hal, but someone already mentioned Gary Snyder! >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/3d9c9782/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 17 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:16:38 +0100 >> From: "Anny Ballardini" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: <007901c500d0$0b0212d0$85a83852 at yourpk9x5fuc06> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >> With Alan's permission, I now feature it also on the Poets' Corner: >> http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=958 >> >> >> >> From: The Old Mole >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart >> >> >> This chart is now my computer's wallpaper/ >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Anny Ballardini >> To: New Poetry >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart >> >> >> I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very > beautiful: >> http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg >> >> he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first >> one: >> http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg >> >> it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. >> Here > it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been > switched on, ... >> >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather > admirers. >> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/f87f9243/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 18 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:16:57 -0500 >> From: "Bob Grumman" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: <028201c500d0$16cf2940$43b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> They should make Ferlinghetti Retroactive California Poet Laureate, > 1950--1980, give Snyder 1980-1990 and some other long-passed poet > 1990-2004, > and give the new one to a poet doing something interesting in poetry, like > Karl Kempton. >> >> --Bob G. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: The Old Mole >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ancient chart >> >> >> This chart is now my computer's wallpaper/ >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Anny Ballardini >> To: New Poetry >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart >> >> >> I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very > beautiful: >> http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg >> >> he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first >> one: >> http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg >> >> it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. >> Here > it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been > switched on, ... >> >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather > admirers. >> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/12c067e5/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 19 >> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:18:20 -0500 >> From: "Halvard Johnson" >> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] ancient chart >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Now that "yung" is up, can "froid" be far behind? >> >> [Note: "Froid" is how "Freud" was spelt in a transcript I read >> long ago, while serving my time in Chicago, of hearings by the >> Illinois State Committee on Un-American Activities (that may >> not have been the precise name, but it's close). The Illinois >> hearings neatly paralleled those held in DC by Sen. McCarthy >> & co.] >> >> Hal >> With Alan's permission, I now feature it also on the Poets' Corner: >> http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=958 >> >> ---- Original Message ----- >> From: Anny Ballardini >> To: New Poetry >> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:12 AM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] ancient chart >> >> >> I find this chart Alan Sondheim sent to the Buffalo list very >> beautiful: >> http://www.asondheim.org/yung.jpg >> >> he also sent a _healed_ version, but I very much prefer the first > one: >> http://www.asondheim.org/yungheal.jpg >> >> it seems you are in great storms on the Eastern coast of the U.S. > Here >> it was very sunny today but cold, the street lamps have just be been >> switched on, ... >> >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to >> gather >> admirers. >> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050122/9a06b813/attachment.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 26 >> ***************************************** >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 11:13:15 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:13:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F37E13.32337.9DDF93@localhost> Message-ID: <010601c50166$71fcebe0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> The verosopath wins again. Congratulations, Marcus. --Bob G. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jan 23 11:15:06 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:15:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 26 References: <200501222220.j0MMK7Al029566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001001c50165$62203610$2419e2d8@retiredud69srz> Message-ID: <00a301c50166$b44c5300$b1a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi Les, why is your message so long? Not what you are writing, but the entire tail you carry. Who knows? And about your points I agree that we are stuffed _emotionally_, mainly thanks to the cinema. The latest Muse which levels Eminem and the like, even if they did a movie on him. We'll see what comes out next. And if you wish, you can post a poem as Bob and Jeff previously told you. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 11:18:58 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:18:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost><003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00fc01c50165$0243ce50$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005301c50166$507ba6a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <012301c50167$3eaa3ad0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> So what'd he do besides write entertaining gossip with side-comments about art, and some nice descriptive passages? From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Jan 23 11:58:12 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:58:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Puzzling blurb Message-ID: >From today's Poetry Daily: "In Fanny Howe's economics of language, similes just won't do because they produce an unreal world where the poor don't exist, a place that allows us to think of 'Utah as if it was Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.'" (Ammiel Alcalay) Among other things, I'm wondering why metaphors and metonyms don't "produce an unreal world." ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Jan 23 12:09:49 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:09:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovation In-Reply-To: <003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 1/23/05 9:20 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > an artistic breakthrough such as the one made by > Aeschylus makes an indelible change in the nature of art. Not in the same > way that a scientific breakthrough changes science, by making everything > before it essentially obsolete...but it's still an indelible change. In > science, these changes are pretty straightforward to identify, and they > don't have to be big changes. The discovery that the best way to treat > certain sports injuries is the application of ice forever rendered obsolete > the practice of applying heat to them.\ > > In the arts, they can be subjects of debate. The 20th century artists who > I'd unequivocally list as making the grade are Joyce and Proust, Armstrong > and Parker. > > But every gimmick is not artistic innovation, and everyone who doesn't > create rebuses or reward rebuses is not an enemy of poetry. This is so sensible and true, especially that last sentence, that it'll be a miracle if you're not punished for it, Tad. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 12:32:36 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:32:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovation References: Message-ID: <017c01c50171$87c16d60$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> But every gimmick is not artistic innovation, and everyone who doesn't >> create rebuses or reward rebuses is not an enemy of poetry. > > > This is so sensible and true, especially that last sentence, that it'll be > a > miracle if you're not punished for it, Tad. > I almost let him off, David, but I couldn't let him get away with the imbecility of his final clause. But I forgot to say that every gimmick--if new--IS, OF COURSE, an artistic innovation. The question is whether or not it is a valuable artistic innovation, and even if it isn't, it remains of value for showing what won't work. --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Sun Jan 23 12:37:36 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:37:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost><003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00fc01c50165$0243ce50$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005301c50166$507ba6a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <012301c50167$3eaa3ad0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <007501c50172$3d3bb5b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> That was about it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 11:18 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust > So what'd he do besides write entertaining gossip with side-comments about > art, and some nice descriptive passages? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Sun Jan 23 13:12:20 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:12:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Puzzling blurb References: Message-ID: <001401c50177$16d4ada0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Which is the place where the poor exist -- Utah, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 11:58 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Puzzling blurb > >From today's Poetry Daily: > > "In Fanny Howe's economics of language, similes just won't do because they > produce an unreal world where the poor don't exist, a place that allows us > to think of 'Utah as if it was Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.'" > (Ammiel Alcalay) > > Among other things, I'm wondering why metaphors and metonyms don't > "produce > an unreal world." > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 23 13:42:38 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:42:38 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Puzzling blurb Message-ID: In a message dated 1/23/2005 11:56:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > >From today's Poetry Daily: > > "In Fanny Howe's economics of language, similes just won't do because they > produce an unreal world where the poor don't exist, a place that allows us > to think of 'Utah as if it was Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.'" > (Ammiel Alcalay) > > Among other things, I'm wondering why metaphors and metonyms don't "produce > an unreal world." > David, why must you torture yourself? Constantly in search of a blurb that actually means something. Theory: The primary function of the blurb is to reduce the space available for the author's photo and thereby avoid the technical costs of touching up the image to rid it of facial blemishes, moles and old acne scars. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 13:48:04 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:48:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost><003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00fc01c50165$0243ce50$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005301c50166$507ba6a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><012301c50167$3eaa3ad0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <007501c50172$3d3bb5b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <019e01c5017c$12cd8b00$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > That was about it. Come on, Mole. You forwarded him for innovation. I'm seriously interested in how he innovated. I'm not saying he wasn't an important novelist, just that I don't know why he's considered innovative. > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 11:18 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust > > >> So what'd he do besides write entertaining gossip with side-comments >> about art, and some nice descriptive passages? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jan 23 13:52:22 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:52:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost><003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00fc01c50165$0243ce50$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005301c50166$507ba6a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><012301c50167$3eaa3ad0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><007501c50172$3d3bb5b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <019e01c5017c$12cd8b00$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004001c5017c$ac482970$b1a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> "Come on, Mole. You forwarded him for innovation. I'm seriously interested in how he innovated." Well Bob, he arrived, sat down, turned the chair into a wonderful red armchair while in the corner a fire lit, tea and cookies (the chocolate chip ones) appeared on the table, the balcony became a wonderful garden, I cannot give you an idea of the fragrances and hues of the petals of the flowers ... From: "Bob Grumman" Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 7:48 PM > > > > That was about it. > > Come on, Mole. You forwarded him for innovation. I'm seriously interested > in how he innovated. I'm not saying he wasn't an important novelist, just > that I don't know why he's considered innovative. > > > Tad Richards > > www.opus40.org > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bob Grumman" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 11:18 AM > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust > > > > > >> So what'd he do besides write entertaining gossip with side-comments > >> about art, and some nice descriptive passages? > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 23 14:18:37 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:18:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Puzzling blurb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050123191837.48785.qmail@web52606.mail.yahoo.com> Okay, I'm trying very hard not to throw up after reading this. (BTW, I don't blame you for posting it, David. We need to see this kind of slipshod nonsense time and again, if only to remind ourselves what shallow thinking dressed up with meaningless rhetoric looks like . . . ) Let's see here. Similies produce an unreal world? Okay, point for Mr. Alcalay. He made the observation that what happens on the page isn't real life--I think. So, I assume that Mr. Alcalay believes that we *all* have a sort of shared mimetic theory of art? So--the poor don't exist on the page or in real life? Can the page be poor? And I'm with Tad--where are the poor? Am I to believe that there are no poor people in Utah? That the poor in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Utah are the same? That Saudi Arabian poor people trump Utah poor people? That Pakistani poor people have some kind of poor people monopoly over Saudi Arabian poor people? Keep following the mindless Marxist nonsense--it's sure to lead somewhere... Good Lord, this kind of stuff makes me sick, sick, sick, sick, sick. I think I'll go beat my own head in with a copy of the Norton Anthology of Poetry... Sheesh... Jeff N. --- David Graham wrote: > >From today's Poetry Daily: > > "In Fanny Howe's economics of language, similes just > won't do because they > produce an unreal world where the poor don't exist, > a place that allows us > to think of 'Utah as if it was Saudi Arabia or > Pakistan.'" > (Ammiel Alcalay) > > Among other things, I'm wondering why metaphors and > metonyms don't "produce > an unreal world." > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tad at opus40.org Sun Jan 23 14:49:30 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:49:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost><003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00fc01c50165$0243ce50$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005301c50166$507ba6a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><012301c50167$3eaa3ad0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><007501c50172$3d3bb5b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <019e01c5017c$12cd8b00$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004101c50184$c25294f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Bob -- I know. I'm just in the middle of doing something complicated, and don't want to deal with it right now. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Proust > > >> That was about it. > > Come on, Mole. You forwarded him for innovation. I'm seriously > interested in how he innovated. I'm not saying he wasn't an important > novelist, just that I don't know why he's considered innovative. > >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bob Grumman" >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" >> >> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 11:18 AM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust >> >> >>> So what'd he do besides write entertaining gossip with side-comments >>> about art, and some nice descriptive passages? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From webmaster at newhampshirereview.com Sun Jan 23 14:40:58 2005 From: webmaster at newhampshirereview.com (Webmaster, New Hampshire Review) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:40:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Hampshire Review - Call for Submissions Message-ID: <001901c50183$768fb440$6601a8c0@piiie500> We now have a sample poem available online for prospective contributors who would like to see how their work will be presented if published. http://www.newhampshirereview.com/sample_poem.htm VMH Call for Submissions The New Hampshire Review is seeking poets, artists, political essayists, and book reviewers to help launch our new quarterly journal of poetry and politics. We are looking for work which contemplates the human condition in fresh, meaningful, and interesting ways. Submissions should aim to reach an intelligent, well-read audience. Our guidelines are available at: http://www.newhampshirereview.com/submission_guidelines.htm We invite poets and publishers who would like their books to be considered for review to send materials to the Review Editor at P.O. Box 323, Nashua, NH 03061-0322. If you would like to be notified by email when the first issue is available, please join our mailing list at: http://www.newhampshirereview.com/mailinglist.htm We look forward to receiving your submissions! Virginia M. Heatter Editor-in-Chief Seth D. Abramson Poetry & Politics Editor The New Hampshire Review P.O. Box 323 Nashua, NH 03061-0322 www.newhampshirereview.com From Thom424 at aol.com Sun Jan 23 15:16:38 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:16:38 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser's THE POETRY HOME REPAIR MANUAL Message-ID: <1a7.2fc4db7f.2f256026@aol.com> here's an excerpt from poet laureate ted kooser's new book, *the poetry home repair manual: practical advice for beginning poets* (university of nebraska press, 2005). thom tammaro moorhead, mn ******************************* You?ll never be able to make a living writing poems. We?d better get this money business out of the way before we go any further. I don?t want you to have any illusions. You might make a living as a teacher of poetry writing or as a lecturer about poetry, but writing poems won?t go very far toward paying your electric bill. A poem published in one of the very best literary magazines in the country might net you a check for enough money to buy half a sack of groceries. The chances are much better that all you?ll receive, besides the pleasure of seeing your poem in print, are a couple of copies of the magazine, one to keep and one to show to your mother. You might get a letter or postcard from a grateful reader, always a delightful surprise. But look at it this way: any activity that?s worth lots of money, like professional basketball, comes with rules pinned all over it. In poetry, the only rules worth thinking about are the standards of perfection you set for yourself. There?s no money in poetry because most of my neighbors, and most of yours, don?t have any use for it. If, at a neighborhood yard sale, you happened to fi nd the original handwritten manuscript of T. S. Eliot?s ?The Waste Land,? you could take it to every quick shop in your city and you wouldn?t fi nd a single person who would trade you ten gallons of gas for it. Part of the reason for our country?s lack of interest in poetry is that most of us learned in school that fi nding the meaning of a poem is way too much work, like cracking a walnut and digging out the meat. Most readers have plenty to do that?s far more interesting than puzzling over poems. I?ll venture that ninety-nine percent of the people who read The New Yorker prefer the cartoons to the poems. A lot of this resistance to poetry is to be blamed on poets. Some go out of their way to make their poems diffi cult if not downright discouraging, because diffi cult poems are what they think they?re expected to write to advance their careers. They know it?s the professional interpreters of poetry? book reviewers, professional literary critics?who most often establish a poet? s reputation, and that those interpreters are attracted to poems that offer opportunities to show off their skills at interpretation. A poet who writes poetry that doesn?t require explanation, who writes clear and accessible poems, is of little use to critics building their own careers as interpreters. But a clear and accessible poem can be of use to an everyday reader. It is possible to nourish a small and appreciative audience for poetry if poets would only think less about the reception of critics and more about the needs of readers. *The Poetry Home Repair Manual* advocates for poems that can be read and understood without professional interpretation. My teacher and mentor, Karl Shapiro, once pointed out that the poetry of the twentieth century was the fi rst poetry that had to be taught. He might have said that had to be explained. I believe with all my heart that it?s a virtue to show our appreciation for readers by writing with kindness, generosity and humility toward them. Everything you?ll read here holds to that. One other point: Isaac Newton attributed his accomplishments to standing on the shoulders of giants. He meant great thinkers who had gone before. Accordingly, beginning poets sometimes start off trying to stand on the shoulders of famous poets, imitating the diffi cult and obscure poems those successful poets have published. That?s understandable, that?s harmless. But they soon learn that, somehow, no literary journal is interested in publishing their diffi cult poems. If these beginners were to study the careers of the famous poets upon whose work they?re modeling their own, they?d find that those writers were often, in their early years, publishing clear, understandable poems. In most instances, only after establishing reputations could they go on to write in more challenging ways. In a sense they earned the right to do so by first attracting an audience of readers, editors and publishers with less diffi cult poems. We serve each poem we write. We make ourselves subservient to our poetry. Any well-made poem is worth a whole lot more to the world than the person who wrote it. In one of Tomas Transtr?mer?s poems he says ?Fantastic to see how my poem is growing / while I myself am shrinking. / It?s getting bigger, it?s taking my place . . . ? There?s an essential difference between being a poet and being a poet and being a poet writing poetry. There are, in a sense, two poets, the one alone writing a poem and the one in the black turtleneck and beret, trying to look sexy. Here?s an older poem of mine: A Poetry Reading Once you were young along a river, tree to tree, with sleek black wings and red shoulders. You sang for yourself but all of them listened to you. Now you?re an old blue heron with yellow eyes and a gray neck tough as a snake. You open your book on its spine, a split fish, and pick over the diffi cult ribs, turning your better eye down to the work of eating your words as you go. At the beginning, too often it?s the idea of being a poet that matters most. It?s those sexy black wings and red shoulders. It?s the attention you want, as the poem says, ?all of them listening to you.? And then you grow old and, if you are lucky, grow wise. I?m in my sixties, but I too was once young and felt fl ashy as a red-winged blackbird. I don?t remember the specifi c date when I decided to be a poet, but it was during one of my many desperately lonely hours as a teenager, and I set about establishing myself as a poet with adolescent singlemindedness. I began to dress the part. I took to walking around in rubber shower sandals and white beachcomber pants that tied with a piece of clothesline rope. I let my hair grow longer and tried to grow a beard. I carried big fat books wherever I went?like Adolph Harnack?s Outlines of the History of Dogma and Kierkegaard?s Fear and Trembling. I couldn?t have understood a word of these books if I?d tried, but they looked really good clenched under my arm and, as a bonus, helped me look as if I had big biceps. There were, it seemed to me, many benefi ts accruing to a career as a poet. There were fame and immortality: the lichen-encrusted bust of the poet on his monument in the town cemetery, standing throughout time in a swirl of autumn leaves. There was also the delicious irresponsibility of the bohemian lifestyle: No more picking up my room, no more mowing the yard. But best of all was the adoration of women. That was what I was most interested in. In those years I That was what I was most interested in. In those years I That desperately needed some sort of a gimmick, for I was thin and pimply, my palms sweated, and my breath was sour from smoking the Chesterfi elds that despite the claims of magazine advertising had failed to make me irresistible. I got the idea that being a poet might make me attractive by reading Life magazine, which occasionally profi led some rumpled, unshaven, melancholy poet (never a female poet, as far as I can remember), and I got the idea from the accompanying text that these guys were ?lady-killers,? as people used to say. I especially remember a photograph of grizzled old John Berryman surrounded by dewy-eyed co-eds, a smile on his lips. It had to be the poetry that made the difference, I figured, because were it not for that, disheveled old Berryman wouldn?t likely have gotten to fi rst base with the women. It didn?t occur to me for a long time that in order to earn the title of Poet, I ought to have written at least one poem. To me, the writing of poetry didn?t have all that much to do with it. Being a poet was looking the part. I was an artificial poet, a phony, when, by rubbing shoulders with poetry, I gradually became interested in writing it. I?d begun to carry books less cumbersome than Harnack and Kierkegaard, and one day I picked up the New Directions paperback edition of William Carlos Williams? Selected Poems. It weighed no more than a few ounces and fit in my pocket. I began to read Williams and soon discovered other poets whose work I liked: May Swenson, Randall Jarrell, John Crowe Ransom, to name a few. I began to read poetry whenever I had a moment free from pretending to be a poet, and soon I started to write a few poems of my own. The two sides of being a poet?the poet as celebrity and the poet as writer?began to fall into balance. I read poems, I wrote poems, and at times, sometimes for hours on end, I was able to forget about trying to attract women. Today I read poems, I write poems, and at times, yes, sometimes for hours on end, I forget about women. Yet there are still the two poets present, the one who quietly concentrates on perfecting the poem and the one who wants more than anything else to be celebrated and adored. I?m delighted and nourished by the first poet and embarrassed by the second. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Sun Jan 23 15:54:02 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:54:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser's THE POETRY HOME REPAIR MANUAL In-Reply-To: <1a7.2fc4db7f.2f256026@aol.com> References: <1a7.2fc4db7f.2f256026@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Thom424 at aol.com wrote: > here's an excerpt from poet laureate ted kooser's new book, *the > poetry home repair manual: practical advice for beginning poets* > (university of nebraska press, 2005). > > thom tammaro > moorhead, mn > > ******************************* > > You?ll never be able to make a living writing poems. We?d better get > this money business out of the way? before we go any further. I don?t > want you to have any illusions. You might make a living as a teacher > of? poetry writing or as a lecturer about poetry, but writing poems > won?t go very far toward paying your electric? bill. A poem published > in one of the very best literary magazines in the country might net > you a check for? enough money to buy half a sack of groceries. The > chances are much better that all you?ll receive, besides? the pleasure > of seeing your poem in print, are a couple of copies of the magazine, > one to keep and one to? show to your mother. You might get a letter or > postcard from a grateful reader, always a delightful surprise.? But > look at it this way: any activity that?s worth lots of money, like > professional basketball, comes with rules? pinned all over it. In > poetry, the only rules worth thinking about are the standards of > perfection you set for? yourself. > ???? There?s no money in poetry because most of my neighbors, and > most of yours, don?t have any use for? it. If, at a neighborhood yard > sale, you happened to fi nd the original handwritten manuscript of T. > S. Eliot?s? ?The Waste Land,? you could take it to every quick shop in > your city and you wouldn?t fi nd a single person who would trade you > ten gallons of gas for it. > ???? Part of the reason for our country?s lack of interest in poetry > is that most of us learned in school that? fi nding the meaning of a > poem is way too much work, like cracking a walnut and digging out the > meat. Most? readers have plenty to do that?s far more interesting than > puzzling over poems. I?ll venture that ninety-nine? percent of the > people who read The New Yorker prefer the cartoons to the poems. > ???? A lot of this resistance to poetry is to be blamed on poets. > Some go out of their way to make their? poems diffi cult if not > downright discouraging, because diffi cult poems are what they think > they?re expected? to write to advance their careers. They know it?s > the professional interpreters of poetry?book reviewers,? professional > literary critics?who most often establish a poet?s reputation, and > that those interpreters are? attracted to poems that offer > opportunities to show off their skills at interpretation. A poet who > writes? poetry that doesn?t require explanation, who writes clear and > accessible poems, is of little use to critics? building their own > careers as interpreters. But a clear and accessible poem can be of use > to an everyday? reader. > ???? It is possible to nourish a small and appreciative audience for > poetry if poets would only think? less about the reception of critics > and more about the needs of readers. *The Poetry Home Repair Manual*? > advocates for poems that can be read and understood without > professional interpretation. My teacher and? mentor, Karl Shapiro, > once pointed out that the poetry of the twentieth century was the fi > rst poetry that had? to be taught. He might have said that had to be > explained. I believe with all my heart that it?s a virtue to show? our > appreciation for readers by writing with kindness, generosity and > humility toward them. Everything? you?ll read here holds to that. > ???? One other point: Isaac Newton attributed his accomplishments to > standing on the shoulders of? giants. He meant great thinkers who had > gone before. Accordingly, beginning poets sometimes start off? trying > to stand on the shoulders of famous poets, imitating the diffi cult > and obscure poems those successful? poets have published. That?s > understandable, that?s harmless. But they soon learn that, somehow, no > literary? journal is interested in publishing their diffi cult poems. > If these beginners were to study the careers of the? famous poets upon > whose work they?re modeling their own, they?d find that those writers > were often,? in their early years, publishing clear, understandable > poems. In most instances, only after establishing? reputations could > they go on to write in more challenging ways. In a sense they earned > the right to do so by? first attracting an audience of readers, > editors and publishers with less diffi cult poems. > ???? We serve each poem we write. We make ourselves subservient to > our poetry. Any well-made poem is worth? a whole lot more to the world > than the person who wrote it. In one of Tomas Transtr?mer?s poems he > says? ?Fantastic to see how my poem is growing / while I myself am > shrinking. / It?s getting bigger, it?s taking my? place . . . ? > There?s an essential difference between being a poet and being a poet > and being a poet writing poetry. There are, in a sense, two? poets, > the one alone writing a poem and the one in the black turtleneck and > beret, trying to look sexy. Here?s? an older poem of mine: > > A Poetry Reading > > Once you were young along a river, tree to tree, > with sleek black wings and red shoulders. > You sang for yourself but all of them listened to you. > > Now you?re an old blue heron with yellow eyes > and a gray neck tough as a snake. > You open your book on its spine, a split fish, > and pick over the diffi cult ribs, > turning your better eye down to the work > of eating your words as you go. > > ???? At the beginning, too often it?s the idea of being a poet that > matters most. It?s those sexy black wings? and red shoulders. It?s the > attention you want, as the poem says, ?all of them listening to you.? > And then you? grow old and, if you are lucky, grow wise. > ???? I?m in my sixties, but I too was once young and felt fl ashy as > a red-winged blackbird. I don?t remember? the specifi c date when I > decided to be a poet, but it was during one of my many desperately > lonely hours as? a teenager, and I set about establishing myself as a > poet with adolescent singlemindedness. I began to dress? the part. I > took to walking around in rubber shower sandals and white beachcomber > pants that tied with a? piece of clothesline rope. I let my hair grow > longer and tried to grow a beard. I carried big fat books wherever? I > went?like Adolph Harnack?s Outlines of the History of Dogma and > Kierkegaard?s Fear and Trembling. I? couldn?t have understood a word > of these books if I?d tried, but they looked really good clenched > under my? arm and, as a bonus, helped me look as if I had big biceps. > ???? There were, it seemed to me, many benefi ts accruing to a career > as a poet. There were fame and? immortality: the lichen-encrusted bust > of the poet on his monument in the town cemetery, standing? throughout > time in a swirl of autumn leaves. There was also the delicious > irresponsibility of the bohemian? lifestyle: No more picking up my > room, no more mowing the yard. > ???? But best of all was the adoration of women. That was what I was > most interested in. In those years I That was what I was most > interested in. In those years I That desperately needed some sort of a > gimmick, for I was thin and pimply, my palms sweated, and my breath > was? sour from smoking the Chesterfi elds that despite the claims of > magazine advertising had failed to make me? irresistible. > ???? I got the idea that being a poet might make me attractive by > reading Life magazine, which? occasionally profi led some rumpled, > unshaven, melancholy poet (never a female poet, as far as I can? > remember), and I got the idea from the accompanying text that these > guys were ?lady-killers,? as people? used to say. I especially > remember a photograph of grizzled old John Berryman surrounded by > dewy-eyed? co-eds, a smile on his lips. It had to be the poetry that > made the difference, I figured, because were it not for? that, > disheveled old Berryman wouldn?t likely have gotten to fi rst base > with the women. > ???? It didn?t occur to me for a long time that in order to earn the > title of Poet, I ought to have written at? least one poem. To me, the > writing of poetry didn?t have all that much to do with it. Being a > poet was looking? the part. > ???? I was an artificial poet, a phony, when, by rubbing shoulders > with poetry, I gradually became interested? in writing it. I?d begun > to carry books less cumbersome than Harnack and Kierkegaard, and one > day I picked up? the New Directions paperback edition of William > Carlos Williams? Selected Poems. It weighed no more than a few? ounces > and fit in my pocket. I began to read Williams and soon discovered > other poets whose work I liked: May? Swenson, Randall Jarrell, John > Crowe Ransom, to name a few. I began to read poetry whenever I had a > moment? free from pretending to be a poet, and soon I started to write > a few poems of my own. The two sides of being a? poet?the poet as > celebrity and the poet as writer?began to fall into balance. I read > poems, I wrote poems, and at? times, sometimes for hours on end, I was > able to forget about trying to attract women. > ???? Today I read poems, I write poems, and at times, yes, sometimes > for hours on end, I forget about women. Yet? there are still the two > poets present, the one who quietly concentrates on perfecting the poem > and the one who? wants more than anything else to be celebrated and > adored. I?m delighted and nourished by the first poet and? embarrassed > by the second._______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Twin sons of diffferent mothers! I really must read some of his work. Here's a link to an essay I wrote about 20 years ago: http://msnider.home.mindspring.com/you_must_love_poems_not_p.htm From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jan 23 16:28:43 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 22:28:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser's THE POETRY HOME REPAIR MANUAL References: <1a7.2fc4db7f.2f256026@aol.com> Message-ID: <007301c50192$844cdd10$b1a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi Michael, yours is a passionate involvement, and more than Kooser's. I think on me it acts like a need for art. And maybe Bob and Tad are closer to what I am saying, or even James, more philosophical. Art and thought, this is what I am looking for. A deployment, a creative invention, a psychological slip, something that un/veils the clear to project a dark that might un/veil another clear to the dark, like chess or cards, turn and turn and once finished the game begin another one. Or even better a game within the game, like Russian dolls in endless rows. Intuitive images, mirrors, tunnels, crevices - or different landscapes. And as Rebecca Seiferle recently said in another context, the strength of the word. To which I might add the history of the word, your own personal one echoing around. From: "Michael Snider" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser's THE POETRY HOME REPAIR MANUAL > > On Jan 23, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Thom424 at aol.com wrote: > > > here's an excerpt from poet laureate ted kooser's new book, *the > > poetry home repair manual: practical advice for beginning poets* > > (university of nebraska press, 2005). > > > > thom tammaro > > moorhead, mn > > > > ******************************* > > > > You?ll never be able to make a living writing poems. We?d better get > > this money business out of the way before we go any further. I don?t > > want you to have any illusions. You might make a living as a teacher > > of poetry writing or as a lecturer about poetry, but writing poems > > won?t go very far toward paying your electric bill. A poem published > > in one of the very best literary magazines in the country might net > > you a check for enough money to buy half a sack of groceries. The > > chances are much better that all you?ll receive, besides the pleasure > > of seeing your poem in print, are a couple of copies of the magazine, > > one to keep and one to show to your mother. You might get a letter or > > postcard from a grateful reader, always a delightful surprise. But > > look at it this way: any activity that?s worth lots of money, like > > professional basketball, comes with rules pinned all over it. In > > poetry, the only rules worth thinking about are the standards of > > perfection you set for yourself. > > There?s no money in poetry because most of my neighbors, and > > most of yours, don?t have any use for it. If, at a neighborhood yard > > sale, you happened to fi nd the original handwritten manuscript of T. > > S. Eliot?s ?The Waste Land,? you could take it to every quick shop in > > your city and you wouldn?t fi nd a single person who would trade you > > ten gallons of gas for it. > > Part of the reason for our country?s lack of interest in poetry > > is that most of us learned in school that fi nding the meaning of a > > poem is way too much work, like cracking a walnut and digging out the > > meat. Most readers have plenty to do that?s far more interesting than > > puzzling over poems. I?ll venture that ninety-nine percent of the > > people who read The New Yorker prefer the cartoons to the poems. > > A lot of this resistance to poetry is to be blamed on poets. > > Some go out of their way to make their poems diffi cult if not > > downright discouraging, because diffi cult poems are what they think > > they?re expected to write to advance their careers. They know it?s > > the professional interpreters of poetry?book reviewers, professional > > literary critics?who most often establish a poet?s reputation, and > > that those interpreters are attracted to poems that offer > > opportunities to show off their skills at interpretation. A poet who > > writes poetry that doesn?t require explanation, who writes clear and > > accessible poems, is of little use to critics building their own > > careers as interpreters. But a clear and accessible poem can be of use > > to an everyday reader. > > It is possible to nourish a small and appreciative audience for > > poetry if poets would only think less about the reception of critics > > and more about the needs of readers. *The Poetry Home Repair Manual* > > advocates for poems that can be read and understood without > > professional interpretation. My teacher and mentor, Karl Shapiro, > > once pointed out that the poetry of the twentieth century was the fi > > rst poetry that had to be taught. He might have said that had to be > > explained. I believe with all my heart that it?s a virtue to show our > > appreciation for readers by writing with kindness, generosity and > > humility toward them. Everything you?ll read here holds to that. > > One other point: Isaac Newton attributed his accomplishments to > > standing on the shoulders of giants. He meant great thinkers who had > > gone before. Accordingly, beginning poets sometimes start off trying > > to stand on the shoulders of famous poets, imitating the diffi cult > > and obscure poems those successful poets have published. That?s > > understandable, that?s harmless. But they soon learn that, somehow, no > > literary journal is interested in publishing their diffi cult poems. > > If these beginners were to study the careers of the famous poets upon > > whose work they?re modeling their own, they?d find that those writers > > were often, in their early years, publishing clear, understandable > > poems. In most instances, only after establishing reputations could > > they go on to write in more challenging ways. In a sense they earned > > the right to do so by first attracting an audience of readers, > > editors and publishers with less diffi cult poems. > > We serve each poem we write. We make ourselves subservient to > > our poetry. Any well-made poem is worth a whole lot more to the world > > than the person who wrote it. In one of Tomas Transtr?mer?s poems he > > says ?Fantastic to see how my poem is growing / while I myself am > > shrinking. / It?s getting bigger, it?s taking my place . . . ? > > There?s an essential difference between being a poet and being a poet > > and being a poet writing poetry. There are, in a sense, two poets, > > the one alone writing a poem and the one in the black turtleneck and > > beret, trying to look sexy. Here?s an older poem of mine: > > > > A Poetry Reading > > > > Once you were young along a river, tree to tree, > > with sleek black wings and red shoulders. > > You sang for yourself but all of them listened to you. > > > > Now you?re an old blue heron with yellow eyes > > and a gray neck tough as a snake. > > You open your book on its spine, a split fish, > > and pick over the diffi cult ribs, > > turning your better eye down to the work > > of eating your words as you go. > > > > At the beginning, too often it?s the idea of being a poet that > > matters most. It?s those sexy black wings and red shoulders. It?s the > > attention you want, as the poem says, ?all of them listening to you.? > > And then you grow old and, if you are lucky, grow wise. > > I?m in my sixties, but I too was once young and felt fl ashy as > > a red-winged blackbird. I don?t remember the specifi c date when I > > decided to be a poet, but it was during one of my many desperately > > lonely hours as a teenager, and I set about establishing myself as a > > poet with adolescent singlemindedness. I began to dress the part. I > > took to walking around in rubber shower sandals and white beachcomber > > pants that tied with a piece of clothesline rope. I let my hair grow > > longer and tried to grow a beard. I carried big fat books wherever I > > went?like Adolph Harnack?s Outlines of the History of Dogma and > > Kierkegaard?s Fear and Trembling. I couldn?t have understood a word > > of these books if I?d tried, but they looked really good clenched > > under my arm and, as a bonus, helped me look as if I had big biceps. > > There were, it seemed to me, many benefi ts accruing to a career > > as a poet. There were fame and immortality: the lichen-encrusted bust > > of the poet on his monument in the town cemetery, standing throughout > > time in a swirl of autumn leaves. There was also the delicious > > irresponsibility of the bohemian lifestyle: No more picking up my > > room, no more mowing the yard. > > But best of all was the adoration of women. That was what I was > > most interested in. In those years I That was what I was most > > interested in. In those years I That desperately needed some sort of a > > gimmick, for I was thin and pimply, my palms sweated, and my breath > > was sour from smoking the Chesterfi elds that despite the claims of > > magazine advertising had failed to make me irresistible. > > I got the idea that being a poet might make me attractive by > > reading Life magazine, which occasionally profi led some rumpled, > > unshaven, melancholy poet (never a female poet, as far as I can > > remember), and I got the idea from the accompanying text that these > > guys were ?lady-killers,? as people used to say. I especially > > remember a photograph of grizzled old John Berryman surrounded by > > dewy-eyed co-eds, a smile on his lips. It had to be the poetry that > > made the difference, I figured, because were it not for that, > > disheveled old Berryman wouldn?t likely have gotten to fi rst base > > with the women. > > It didn?t occur to me for a long time that in order to earn the > > title of Poet, I ought to have written at least one poem. To me, the > > writing of poetry didn?t have all that much to do with it. Being a > > poet was looking the part. > > I was an artificial poet, a phony, when, by rubbing shoulders > > with poetry, I gradually became interested in writing it. I?d begun > > to carry books less cumbersome than Harnack and Kierkegaard, and one > > day I picked up the New Directions paperback edition of William > > Carlos Williams? Selected Poems. It weighed no more than a few ounces > > and fit in my pocket. I began to read Williams and soon discovered > > other poets whose work I liked: May Swenson, Randall Jarrell, John > > Crowe Ransom, to name a few. I began to read poetry whenever I had a > > moment free from pretending to be a poet, and soon I started to write > > a few poems of my own. The two sides of being a poet?the poet as > > celebrity and the poet as writer?began to fall into balance. I read > > poems, I wrote poems, and at times, sometimes for hours on end, I was > > able to forget about trying to attract women. > > Today I read poems, I write poems, and at times, yes, sometimes > > for hours on end, I forget about women. Yet there are still the two > > poets present, the one who quietly concentrates on perfecting the poem > > and the one who wants more than anything else to be celebrated and > > adored. I?m delighted and nourished by the first poet and embarrassed > > by the second._______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > Twin sons of diffferent mothers! I really must read some of his work. > Here's a link to an essay I wrote about 20 years ago: > http://msnider.home.mindspring.com/you_must_love_poems_not_p.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Jan 23 17:12:58 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:12:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser's THE POETRY HOME REPAIR MANUAL References: <1a7.2fc4db7f.2f256026@aol.com> <007301c50192$844cdd10$b1a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <008901c50198$b2bc2a60$b1a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Jon Corelis says it better than me with a quote on the Buffalo list: Words are seals of the mind, results -- or, more correctly, stations -- of an infinite series of experiences, which reach from an unimaginably distant past into the present ... They are the 'audible that clings to the inaudible'... The essential nature of words is therefore neither exhausted by their present meaning, nor is their importance confined to their usefulness as transmitters of thoughts and ideas, but they express at the same time qualities which are not translatable into concepts -- just as a melody which, though it may be associated with a conceptual meaning, cannot be described by words or by any other medium of expression. And it is just that irrational quality which stirs up our deepest feelings, elevates our innermost being, and makes it vibrate with others. The magic which poetry exerts upon us, is due to this quality and the rhythm combined therewith. It is stronger than what the words convey objectively -- stronger even than reason with all its logic, in which we believe so firmly ... If art can be called the re-creation and formal expression of reality through the medium of human experience, then the creation of language may be called the greatest achievement of art. Each word originally was a focus of energies, in which the transformation of reality into the vibrations of the human voice -- the vital expression of the human soul -- took place. -- Angarika Govinda, Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 17:51:22 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:51:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust as Innovator References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost><003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00fc01c50165$0243ce50$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005301c50166$507ba6a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><012301c50167$3eaa3ad0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><007501c50172$3d3bb5b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><019e01c5017c$12cd8b00$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <004101c50184$c25294f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <020b01c5019e$10ba42f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Okay, when you have a chance. You needn't argue it, just mention what he did, like Joyce and stream of consciousness, scene-by-scene undermything, then pretty much the invention of serious infra-verbality ijn Finnegans Wake, and much else. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Proust > Bob -- I know. I'm just in the middle of doing something complicated, and > don't want to deal with it right now. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 1:48 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Proust > > >> >> >>> That was about it. >> >> Come on, Mole. You forwarded him for innovation. I'm seriously >> interested in how he innovated. I'm not saying he wasn't an important >> novelist, just that I don't know why he's considered innovative. >> >>> Tad Richards >>> www.opus40.org >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bob Grumman" >>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 11:18 AM >>> Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust >>> >>> >>>> So what'd he do besides write entertaining gossip with side-comments >>>> about art, and some nice descriptive passages? >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Sun Jan 23 19:02:58 2005 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 00:02:58 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust In-Reply-To: <020b01c5019e$10ba42f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost><003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00fc01c50165$0243ce50$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005301c50166$507ba6a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><012301c50167$3eaa3ad0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><007501c50172$3d3bb5b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><019e01c5017c$12cd8b00$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <004101c50184$c25294f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <020b01c5019e$10ba42f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1106524978.41f43b324f0ab@webmail.ukonline.net> Well I guess the question of innovation is a matter of literary history; a boring answer would be to say read a short history of the novel, it'll tell you about the operation of memory and how the human mind experiences time and how it writes of time ? a more serious answer would involve at a minimum some knowledge of Flaubert and the late James; you?d need to know what novelists standing directly behind Proust had already managed to come up with. And then, well, reading A la Recherche isn?t something you could do in much less than a year. It took me five. But since I think it?s more important to get interested in something first, and then worry about if it?s innovative later, there is a shortcut. The opening ?Overture? is only sixty pages long, and even if you only read the first dozen you ought to begin to have an idea of whether the experience of reading this matters to you, whether it?s a thrill and seems important or is just a so-what. Of Proust?s contemporaries, it?s Joyce whose particular methods of man-handling language have most interested poets. Proust, Kafka, Hamsun, Musil, the other innovators of this generation, probably demand a committed interest in other potentialities of the novel that do not have such obvious analogies with poetry or at least with its formal aspects. For some reason a lot of poets in modernist traditions don?t seem to be very interested in novels except for light stuff that they can read for relaxation. I can?t say I?ve really kept up with it myself, I don?t know Robbe-Grillet or much of what happened to innovative novels after that. Perhaps it feels like too much to take on, to pursue another art to its most demanding core as well as one?s own. Perhaps people who are into poetry aren?t used to the different rhythm of reading novels, the sense of being passive and receptive for such a long stretch when what we?re used to is alternating reading and thinking and writing at much more rapid intervals. Ron Silliman is one who frankly admits that he just doesn?t feel interested in fiction ? yet he?s keen on Proust, lingering over the formal structures of his sentences at close range. Personally I think his way of reading Proust is perverse, but it pleases me all the same. I hope that?s some sort of help. I admit I wasn?t sure if you were asking the question after you?d already read lots of Proust ? in which case it won?t be any help at all, but maybe to someone else. best Michael ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Jan 23 19:55:15 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:55:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <010601c50166$71fcebe0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F40123.13568.19C89F@localhost> On 23 Jan 2005 at 11:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > The verosopath ...< Name-calling with malicious neologisms is your game, Bob. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 20:59:40 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:59:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust References: <41F36304.11012.342B92@localhost><003901c5015f$2e27ac40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><00fc01c50165$0243ce50$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005301c50166$507ba6a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><012301c50167$3eaa3ad0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><007501c50172$3d3bb5b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><019e01c5017c$12cd8b00$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004101c50184$c25294f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><020b01c5019e$10ba42f0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1106524978.41f43b324f0ab@webmail.ukonline.net> Message-ID: <002501c501b8$5db943c0$7cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks. Good answers, I guess. I've almost read the first book in the series (in English) three times. I guess the way the narrator remembers things WAS then an innovation. You're right, though--as a poet or word-person, I forgot about that--instead thinking about what language tricks he may have used. I read non-burstnorm novels, myself, with enjoyment, usually. I think I've read a few supposedly cutting edge ones, but can't remember. I don't think much of the Mailer, Updike, etc., crowd. Hey, maybe I'll finally finish the Mama's boy section. You got me interested again. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Proust > > > Well I guess the question of innovation is a matter of literary history; a > boring answer would be to say read a short history of the novel, it'll > tell you > about the operation of memory and how the human mind experiences time and > how > it writes of time - a more serious answer would involve at a minimum some > knowledge of Flaubert and the late James; you'd need to know what > novelists > standing directly behind Proust had already managed to come up with. And > then, > well, reading A la Recherche isn't something you could do in much less > than a > year. It took me five. > > But since I think it's more important to get interested in something > first, and > then worry about if it's innovative later, there is a shortcut. The > opening "Overture" is only sixty pages long, and even if you only read the > first dozen you ought to begin to have an idea of whether the experience > of > reading this matters to you, whether it's a thrill and seems important or > is > just a so-what. > > Of Proust's contemporaries, it's Joyce whose particular methods of > man-handling > language have most interested poets. Proust, Kafka, Hamsun, Musil, the > other > innovators of this generation, probably demand a committed interest in > other > potentialities of the novel that do not have such obvious analogies with > poetry > or at least with its formal aspects. For some reason a lot of poets in > modernist traditions don't seem to be very interested in novels except for > light stuff that they can read for relaxation. I can't say I've really > kept up > with it myself, I don't know Robbe-Grillet or much of what happened to > innovative novels after that. Perhaps it feels like too much to take on, > to > pursue another art to its most demanding core as well as one's own. > Perhaps > people who are into poetry aren't used to the different rhythm of reading > novels, the sense of being passive and receptive for such a long stretch > when > what we're used to is alternating reading and thinking and writing at much > more > rapid intervals. Ron Silliman is one who frankly admits that he just > doesn't > feel interested in fiction - yet he's keen on Proust, lingering over the > formal > structures of his sentences at close range. Personally I think his way of > reading Proust is perverse, but it pleases me all the same. > > I hope that's some sort of help. I admit I wasn't sure if you were asking > the > question after you'd already read lots of Proust - in which case it won't > be > any help at all, but maybe to someone else. > > best > > Michael > > > ---------------------------------------------- > This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 23 21:01:16 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 21:01:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate References: <41F40123.13568.19C89F@localhost> Message-ID: <004101c501b8$97263140$7cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> My gosh, the verosopath has won again! --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > On 23 Jan 2005 at 11:13, Bob Grumman wrote: >> The verosopath ...< > > Name-calling with malicious neologisms is your game, Bob. > > Marcus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Jan 23 21:05:44 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 21:05:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Merle HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate In-Reply-To: <004101c501b8$97263140$7cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F411A8.21928.5A5137@localhost> On 23 Jan 2005 at 21:01, Bob Grumman wrote: > My gosh, the verosopath has won again! Still employing all your skills in malicious neologism, eh, Bob? Marcus > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marcus Bales" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 7:55 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Merle > HaggardshouldbeCalifornia'snextpoetlaureate > > > > On 23 Jan 2005 at 11:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> The verosopath ...< > > > > Name-calling with malicious neologisms is your game, Bob. > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Jan 23 21:05:44 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 21:05:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Proust In-Reply-To: <002501c501b8$5db943c0$7cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F411A8.14301.5A50D2@localhost> On 23 Jan 2005 at 20:59, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... I think > I've read a few supposedly cutting edge [novels], but can't remember. ...<< How typical of Grumman's scholarship, and the power and memorableness of the "cutting edge":: he "thinks" he's read this or that but "can't remember". How telling! Marcus From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 24 12:04:19 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:04:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall reflects on his life of poetry Message-ID: <11.3d59823c.2f268493@aol.com> http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/arts_culture/ (real audio) Donald Hall reflects on his life of poetry Donald Hall is considered one of America's greatest poets. He's published 15 volumes of poetry. The two most recent works, "Without" and "The Painted Bed," deal with the death of his wife, poet Jane Kenyon in 1995. Hall told MPR's Marianne Combs he was drawn to poetry from an early age. (01/21/2005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Jan 24 05:37:15 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 04:37:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Allegory Message-ID: In Stanislaw Lem's *The Cyberiad*, which I'm currently reading, there's a wonderful little science fiction allegory about poetry--a poetry writing computer--in the section called "First Sally." It's funny, wise, and satirical and contains a large dose of truth. I recommend it to all. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From kpaul at mallasch.com Mon Jan 24 12:49:37 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:49:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Allegory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050124124931.C32237@kpaul.spinweb.net> Come, let us hasten to a higher plane, Where dyads tread the fairy fields of Venn, Their indices bedecked from one to n, Commingled in an endless Markov chain! Come, every frustum longs to be a cone, And every vector dreams of matrices. Hark to the gentle gradient of the breeze: It whispers of a more ergodic zone. In Riemann, Hilbert or Banach space Let superscripts and subscripts go their ways. Our asymptotes no longer out of phase, We shall encounter, counting, face to face. I'll grant thee random access to my heart, Thou'lt tell me all the constants of thy love; And so we two shall all love's lemmas prove, And in our bound partition never part. For what did Cauchy know, or Christoffel, Or Fourier, or any Boole or Euler, Wielding their compasses, their pens and rulers, Of thy supernal sinusoidal spell? Cancel me not -- for what then shall remain? Abscissas, some mantissas, modules, modes, A root or two, a torus and a node: The inverse of my verse, a null domain. Ellipse of bliss, converge, O lips divine! The product of our scalars is defined! Cyberiad draws nigh, and the skew mind Cuts capers like a happy haversine. I see the eigenvalue in thine eye, I hear the tender tensor in thy sigh. Bernoulli would have been content to die, Had he but known such a2 cos 2 On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Paul Lake wrote: > In Stanislaw Lem's *The Cyberiad*, which I'm currently reading, there's a > wonderful little science fiction allegory about poetry--a poetry writing > computer--in the section called "First Sally." It's funny, wise, and > satirical and contains a large dose of truth. I recommend it to all. > > Paul Lake > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ! * >From The First Sally (A), or Trurl's Electronic Bard in The Cyberiad by Stanislaw Lem translated from Polish by Michael Kandel From kpaul at mallasch.com Mon Jan 24 12:58:08 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:58:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Allegory In-Reply-To: <20050124124931.C32237@kpaul.spinweb.net> References: <20050124124931.C32237@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <20050124125804.T32237@kpaul.spinweb.net> >From The First Sally (A), or Trurl's Electronic Bard in The Cyberiad by Stanislaw Lem translated from Polish by Michael Kandel On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, kpaul mallasch wrote: > Come, let us hasten to a higher plane, > Where dyads tread the fairy fields of Venn, > Their indices bedecked from one to n, > Commingled in an endless Markov chain! > > Come, every frustum longs to be a cone, > And every vector dreams of matrices. > Hark to the gentle gradient of the breeze: > It whispers of a more ergodic zone. > > In Riemann, Hilbert or Banach space > Let superscripts and subscripts go their ways. > Our asymptotes no longer out of phase, > We shall encounter, counting, face to face. > > I'll grant thee random access to my heart, > Thou'lt tell me all the constants of thy love; > And so we two shall all love's lemmas prove, > And in our bound partition never part. > > For what did Cauchy know, or Christoffel, > Or Fourier, or any Boole or Euler, > Wielding their compasses, their pens and rulers, > Of thy supernal sinusoidal spell? > > Cancel me not -- for what then shall remain? > Abscissas, some mantissas, modules, modes, > A root or two, a torus and a node: > The inverse of my verse, a null domain. > > Ellipse of bliss, converge, O lips divine! > The product of our scalars is defined! > Cyberiad draws nigh, and the skew mind > Cuts capers like a happy haversine. > > I see the eigenvalue in thine eye, > I hear the tender tensor in thy sigh. > Bernoulli would have been content to die, > Had he but known such a2 cos 2 > > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Paul Lake wrote: > >> In Stanislaw Lem's *The Cyberiad*, which I'm currently reading, there's a >> wonderful little science fiction allegory about poetry--a poetry writing >> computer--in the section called "First Sally." It's funny, wise, and >> satirical and contains a large dose of truth. I recommend it to all. >> >> Paul Lake >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > ! > > * > >> From The First Sally (A), or Trurl's Electronic Bard > in The Cyberiad > by Stanislaw Lem > translated from Polish by Michael Kandel > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Jan 24 12:51:09 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:51:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Allegory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { In Stanislaw Lem's *The Cyberiad*, which I'm currently reading, there's a { wonderful little science fiction allegory about poetry--a poetry writing { computer--in the section called "First Sally." It's funny, wise, and { satirical and contains a large dose of truth. I recommend it to all. { { Paul Lake I second this recommendation. Hal "Am I wrong, or are fewer and fewer people using the word 'Weltschmerz' these days?" --Christopher Howell Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Jan 24 06:56:21 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:56:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Allegory In-Reply-To: <20050124124931.C32237@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: If memory serves, the piece below is from the middle period of the electronic bard. This and some of the earlier attempts at poems seems to me at least as good as most so-called-language poetry, only funnier, sort of Jabberwockyish. Then the electronic bard gets better . . . With interesting results. Thanks for posting this, Paul. I thought of posting this or something like it myself. Paul On 1/24/05 11:49 AM, "kpaul mallasch" wrote: > Come, let us hasten to a higher plane, > Where dyads tread the fairy fields of Venn, > Their indices bedecked from one to n, > Commingled in an endless Markov chain! > > Come, every frustum longs to be a cone, > And every vector dreams of matrices. > Hark to the gentle gradient of the breeze: > It whispers of a more ergodic zone. > > In Riemann, Hilbert or Banach space > Let superscripts and subscripts go their ways. > Our asymptotes no longer out of phase, > We shall encounter, counting, face to face. > > I'll grant thee random access to my heart, > Thou'lt tell me all the constants of thy love; > And so we two shall all love's lemmas prove, > And in our bound partition never part. > > For what did Cauchy know, or Christoffel, > Or Fourier, or any Boole or Euler, > Wielding their compasses, their pens and rulers, > Of thy supernal sinusoidal spell? > > Cancel me not -- for what then shall remain? > Abscissas, some mantissas, modules, modes, > A root or two, a torus and a node: > The inverse of my verse, a null domain. > > Ellipse of bliss, converge, O lips divine! > The product of our scalars is defined! > Cyberiad draws nigh, and the skew mind > Cuts capers like a happy haversine. > > I see the eigenvalue in thine eye, > I hear the tender tensor in thy sigh. > Bernoulli would have been content to die, > Had he but known such a2 cos 2 > > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Paul Lake wrote: > >> In Stanislaw Lem's *The Cyberiad*, which I'm currently reading, there's a >> wonderful little science fiction allegory about poetry--a poetry writing >> computer--in the section called "First Sally." It's funny, wise, and >> satirical and contains a large dose of truth. I recommend it to all. >> >> Paul Lake >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > ! > > * > >> From The First Sally (A), or Trurl's Electronic Bard > in The Cyberiad > by Stanislaw Lem > translated from Polish by Michael Kandel > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From tad at opus40.org Mon Jan 24 13:59:08 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:59:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page References: Message-ID: <002001c50246$cada7d50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I just redid the whole opus 40 web page, and I need some feedback. Link is under my signature. Could I ask a few of you to go there, and tell me how the page looks to you? Can you see the whole page, or do you have to slide over? I think I;m going to have redo it to make it fit for the average browser. Then, go to the Weblog link - you'll see a great picture of yesterday right after the blizzard - and see if you can leave a comment. I think I've fixed it to accept comments, but not positive. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jan 24 14:33:17 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:33:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page References: <002001c50246$cada7d50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <003001c5024b$8eae7d90$59ae3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Very good Tad, and a wonderful place, maybe one day or another, better another than one day, but whatever, I will show up there and see if I can find you, take care, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:59 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page > I just redid the whole opus 40 web page, and I need some feedback. Link is > under my signature. Could I ask a few of you to go there, and tell me how > the page looks to you? Can you see the whole page, or do you have to slide > over? I think I;m going to have redo it to make it fit for the average > browser. > > Then, go to the Weblog link - you'll see a great picture of yesterday right > after the blizzard - and see if you can leave a comment. I think I've fixed > it to accept comments, but not positive. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Jan 24 14:36:55 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:36:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page Message-ID: <22965487.1106595415832.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I don't want yet another user name and password to remember, so I'll just post my comment here: I hope you didn't step on any of that snow and ruin the overall effect. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: The Old Mole Sent: Jan 24, 2005 11:59 AM To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page I just redid the whole opus 40 web page, and I need some feedback. Link is under my signature. Could I ask a few of you to go there, and tell me how the page looks to you? Can you see the whole page, or do you have to slide over? I think I;m going to have redo it to make it fit for the average browser. Then, go to the Weblog link - you'll see a great picture of yesterday right after the blizzard - and see if you can leave a comment. I think I've fixed it to accept comments, but not positive. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Jan 24 14:42:02 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:42:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE90A@URANIUM.ripon.college> Here's an oddity: IE and Netscape open completely different pages with the same address. . . . Actually, it looks like Netscape only opens a partial page. Could be a glitch in my ancient browsers, I guess: IE 5, Netscape 4.72. On IE, I have to scroll to see it all, by the way. Nice blizzard. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of The Old Mole > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:59 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page > > I just redid the whole opus 40 web page, and I need some feedback. Link is > under my signature. Could I ask a few of you to go there, and tell me how > the page looks to you? Can you see the whole page, or do you have to slide > over? I think I;m going to have redo it to make it fit for the average > browser. > > Then, go to the Weblog link - you'll see a great picture of yesterday right > after the blizzard - and see if you can leave a comment. I think I've fixed > it to accept comments, but not positive. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Mon Jan 24 14:43:37 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:43:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page References: <22965487.1106595415832.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000601c5024d$0a23e8b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Nope - only deer tracks allowed during the winter. Is it still asking people to register and create a password before posting comments? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page >I don't want yet another user name and password to remember, so I'll just >post my comment here: > > I hope you didn't step on any of that snow and ruin the overall effect. > > - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Old Mole > Sent: Jan 24, 2005 11:59 AM > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page > > I just redid the whole opus 40 web page, and I need some feedback. Link is > under my signature. Could I ask a few of you to go there, and tell me how > the page looks to you? Can you see the whole page, or do you have to slide > over? I think I;m going to have redo it to make it fit for the average > browser. > > Then, go to the Weblog link - you'll see a great picture of yesterday > right > after the blizzard - and see if you can leave a comment. I think I've > fixed > it to accept comments, but not positive. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jan 24 14:49:00 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:49:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE90A@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <005501c5024d$c01535c0$59ae3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Opus 40 web pageI usually use IE, but after David's mail I tried Netscape 7.1 (you can update/download it for free), and it is the same on my screen. Yes, one has to scroll down a little but that goes with web pages, usually. At least it does not bother me. No, I did not have to register for the comment. ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham, David To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 8:42 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page Here's an oddity: IE and Netscape open completely different pages with the same address. . . . Actually, it looks like Netscape only opens a partial page. Could be a glitch in my ancient browsers, I guess: IE 5, Netscape 4.72. On IE, I have to scroll to see it all, by the way. Nice blizzard. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ ---------- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of The Old Mole Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:59 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page I just redid the whole opus 40 web page, and I need some feedback. Link is under my signature. Could I ask a few of you to go there, and tell me how the page looks to you? Can you see the whole page, or do you have to slide over? I think I;m going to have redo it to make it fit for the average browser. Then, go to the Weblog link - you'll see a great picture of yesterday right after the blizzard - and see if you can leave a comment. I think I've fixed it to accept comments, but not positive. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Mon Jan 24 15:10:52 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:10:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page In-Reply-To: <000601c5024d$0a23e8b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <22965487.1106595415832.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <000601c5024d$0a23e8b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <0C5C6DD7-6E44-11D9-8E62-000393C29586@mac.com> On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:43 PM, The Old Mole wrote: > Nope - only deer tracks allowed during the winter. > > Is it still asking people to register and create a password before > posting comments? > > I have a blogger account, so it recognized me, though I didn't actually post a comment. I have a link to MolePages at my blog ( http://radio.weblogs/com/0113501 ) -- do you prefer this? Wil the blog have poetry-related material? Michael From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Jan 24 15:36:57 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:36:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page In-Reply-To: <002001c50246$cada7d50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Just for the record, Tad, I just visited the home page using Firefox and had to slide both down and over to see the entire page. Hal { I just redid the whole opus 40 web page, and I need some feedback. Link is { under my signature. Could I ask a few of you to go there, and tell me how { the page looks to you? Can you see the whole page, or do you have to slide { over? I think I;m going to have redo it to make it fit for the average { browser. { { Then, go to the Weblog link - you'll see a great picture of yesterday right { after the blizzard - and see if you can leave a comment. I think I've fixed { it to accept comments, but not positive. { { { Tad Richards { www.opus40.org { ----- Original Message ----- { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 24 16:04:38 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:04:38 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Mark_Strand_on_=E2=80=98New_Letters_on_th?= =?utf-8?b?ZSBBaXLigJnigKY=?= Message-ID: <1c4.227e76b5.2f26bce6@aol.com> Mark Strand on ?New Letters on the Air?? http://www.newletters.org/onTheAir.asp With wit and style, former U.S. Poet Laureate and Pulitzer Prize winner Mark Strand talks about his life in letters, the dark humor of his poetry, and his refusal to speak his native French language. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 24 16:20:15 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:20:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Online Litmag:The Konundrum Engine Literary Review Message-ID: <1df.33b073ef.2f26c08f@aol.com> http://lit.konundrum.com/ The Konundrum Engine Literary Review is an online journal based in New York, NY. All we really want to do is make you happy. We like stories and words, and hope that's why you're here, because if you want a soda and a fried grouper sandwich, we don't do that, although some of us are really proficient chefs, and would love to cook you a nice meal, if we like you. We publish a lot of things. We exist to rock the joint. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Mon Jan 24 18:25:55 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:25:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page References: <22965487.1106595415832.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net><000601c5024d$0a23e8b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0C5C6DD7-6E44-11D9-8E62-000393C29586@mac.com> Message-ID: <001701c5026c$10090fc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Michael - I can't open your blog. Are you sure the address you gave is right? Molepages is still going to be my main poetry-related site, and if I get ambitious enough, or think that I actually have anything to say, I'll be opening a MoleBlog. I've registered the name, but haven't done anything with it yet. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page > > On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:43 PM, The Old Mole wrote: > >> Nope - only deer tracks allowed during the winter. >> >> Is it still asking people to register and create a password before >> posting comments? >> >> > > I have a blogger account, so it recognized me, though I didn't actually > post a comment. > I have a link to MolePages at my blog ( > http://radio.weblogs/com/0113501 ) -- do you prefer this? Wil the blog > have poetry-related material? > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Mon Jan 24 18:27:12 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:27:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page References: Message-ID: <002501c5026c$3dbc20b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Down I can live with, but I'm gonna try recoding it so folks with lower resolution won't have to slide over. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:36 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page > > Just for the record, Tad, I just visited the home page using Firefox > and had to slide both down and over to see the entire page. > > Hal > > { I just redid the whole opus 40 web page, and I need some feedback. > Link is > { under my signature. Could I ask a few of you to go there, and tell me > how > { the page looks to you? Can you see the whole page, or do you have to > slide > { over? I think I;m going to have redo it to make it fit for the > average > { browser. > { > { Then, go to the Weblog link - you'll see a great picture of yesterday > right > { after the blizzard - and see if you can leave a comment. I think I've > fixed > { it to accept comments, but not positive. > { > { > { Tad Richards > { www.opus40.org > { ----- Original Message ----- > { > { > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 24 19:10:11 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:10:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page References: <002001c50246$cada7d50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <021201c50272$3d575cb0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I think I've fixed > it to accept comments, but not positive. Why wouldn't you want it to accept positive comments, Mole? (I can't believe that I'm the first New-Poetry wit to come up with that.) Site looks nice and even has a visual poem at the top! No mathematical poems, though. . . . --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Mon Jan 24 19:25:51 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:25:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page References: <002001c50246$cada7d50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <021201c50272$3d575cb0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001401c50274$6f962560$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I never trust positive comments. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page >I think I've fixed >> it to accept comments, but not positive. > > Why wouldn't you want it to accept positive comments, Mole? > > (I can't believe that I'm the first New-Poetry wit to come up with that.) > > Site looks nice and even has a visual poem at the top! No mathematical > poems, though. . . . > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Mon Jan 24 20:25:05 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:25:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page References: <002501c5026c$3dbc20b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <001001c5027c$b5e4d400$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> OK, I promise to let it go after this. Can some of those of you who had to slide from side to side check it again and see if you still have to? Backchannel me on this is fine. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page > Down I can live with, but I'm gonna try recoding it so folks with lower > resolution won't have to slide over. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Halvard Johnson" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:36 PM > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Opus 40 web page > > >> >> Just for the record, Tad, I just visited the home page using Firefox >> and had to slide both down and over to see the entire page. >> >> Hal >> >> { I just redid the whole opus 40 web page, and I need some feedback. >> Link is >> { under my signature. Could I ask a few of you to go there, and tell >> me how >> { the page looks to you? Can you see the whole page, or do you have to >> slide >> { over? I think I;m going to have redo it to make it fit for the >> average >> { browser. >> { >> { Then, go to the Weblog link - you'll see a great picture of >> yesterday right >> { after the blizzard - and see if you can leave a comment. I think >> I've fixed >> { it to accept comments, but not positive. >> { >> { >> { Tad Richards >> { www.opus40.org >> { ----- Original Message ----- >> { >> { >> { _______________________________________________ >> { New-Poetry mailing list >> { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> { >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jan 25 08:43:59 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:43:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Latest Bob/Marcus Absurdity References: <1df.33b073ef.2f26c08f@aol.com> Message-ID: <00bf01c502e3$ecf77800$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> To avoid being accused of going behind his back to insult Marcus, I felt I should announce that my latest blog entry is a minor (insulting) reply to some of his attacks on me here. My blog is po-X-cetera; it's at http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jan 25 08:55:24 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:55:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass's Haiku Book References: <1df.33b073ef.2f26c08f@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d301c502e5$85043920$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Just to show I'm capable of praising stasguards, I wanted to let New-Poetry know that I like Rober Hass's haiku book. A student in a class I was covering as a sub yesterday happened to have a copy of it that she let me borrow. I thumbed through it, and read ten or fifteen of its haiku. They all seemed first-rate to me--translations (by Hass himself, I believe) of the big three in Japanese haiku, Basho, Buson and Issa. The book also has long pieces on each of the poets. These seemed informative and well-written. I'd recommend the book to anyone interested in haiku. Stasguards are often good at this kind of thing. Maybe if there were no stasguards, no one would do it, which would be horrible. Well, someone would do it, but not as well. It may be that the a focus on received knowledge is required that non-stasguards aren't capable of. Certainly, a concern with the old is necessary that would hang up the most creative people. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 25 11:00:13 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:00:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass's Haiku Book In-Reply-To: <00d301c502e5$85043920$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F626BD.18341.6B044E@localhost> On 25 Jan 2005 at 8:55, Bob Grumman wrote: > Just to show I'm capable of praising stasguards, ... Stasguards are > often good at this kind of thing. ...Certainly, a concern with the > old is necessary that would hang up the most creative people. Even beyond the malicious neologism of "stasguard", Grumman here insults everyone but himself and his select coterie as NOT "the most creative people". Because it's from 1704 Grumman will not know the phrase "damn with faint praise", and he probably thinks he's doing something "new" by doing this. Marcus From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 25 13:23:37 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:23:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! Message-ID: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> I address this email primarily with academics in mind, but I think anyone who loves poetry might be able to help me. So, if you haven't taught or never will, please don't think that I'm not talking to you, as well. I'm teaching an honors writing section this semester. My theme and course title is "Poetry and Persuasion." We're looking at poems from a rhetorical standpoint, talking about the way(s) in which a poetic text can persuade a reader, and analyzing poems in light of Aristotelian rhetoric. Although the class is barely three weeks old, I feel a real disconnect between the students and the material. Don't get mre wrong--the students are great. They're willing to discuss and willing to participate. But there's a kind of amorphous "so what" hanging in the air of every class. I've been thinking that perhaps I hit them with theory too much and too early. Today in class, we talked about three Emily Dickinson poems--always a hard sell. What I noticed was that my students wanted to talk about what they felt the poems were intimating, just not HOW the poems were sending the message. In short, I'm a bit lost as to how to proceed. When I put this course together over the Christmas break, I was very excited about it. Now, I'm afraid that I've been too ambitious. Do any of you have any ideas on how to make what probably seems very dry seem interesting? My major problem seems to be that the students want *practical* education. They want something they can use--NOW. I argue that knowing how to read a text carefully and responsibly is a good skill to have, particularly in academia, where everything these days is less and less about a given text and more and more about somebody's fifedom or agenda. Does anyone have any practical advice for me? I admire and respect almost all of you on the list, and I'd very greatly appreciate your feedback. I'm such a rank amateur at poetry; I feel that in my zeal I may have somehow put off my students. Thanks a lot for your time. Jeff N. ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Jan 25 13:33:08 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:33:08 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin> From: "Jeff Newberry" > I'm teaching an honors writing section this semester. > My theme and course title is "Poetry and Persuasion." ... > My major > problem seems to be that the students want *practical* > education. They want something they can use--NOW. How about Andrew Marvell's "To His Coy Mistress" or John Donne's "The Flea" (or some more modern equivalents)? Nothing so practical for undergraduates as seduction. Robin Hamilton From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Tue Jan 25 13:40:14 2005 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:40:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin> References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> <003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu> I've written to Jeff backchannel and have sent him a handout I used at a recent workshop on Poetry's Appeal to the Mind, but here's my small contribution to the question at hand. Perhaps Jeff can get his students to respond to ideas such as the following: * Some poems--e.g., Hardy's "Hap" and Marvell's "To His Coy Mistress" and many others--are syllogisms. * Most complex poetry depends on logical structures such as subordination ("When," "Because," etc.) * Every image is a mini-argument. I understand your frustration, Jeff, but I think the course is do-able. Good luck Bill Morgan At 12:33 PM 1/25/2005, you wrote: >From: "Jeff Newberry" > > > I'm teaching an honors writing section this semester. > > My theme and course title is "Poetry and Persuasion." >... > > My major > > problem seems to be that the students want *practical* > > education. They want something they can use--NOW. > >How about Andrew Marvell's "To His Coy Mistress" or John Donne's "The Flea" >(or some more modern equivalents)? > >Nothing so practical for undergraduates as seduction. > >Robin Hamilton > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 25 13:49:59 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:49:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41F64E87.27673.1066F70@localhost> Have them read from Byron's Don Juan -- a potpourri of rhetorical effects and flourishes there. Pope's Essay on Criticism, too "When Ajax strives some rock's vast weight to throw, The line too labors, and the words move slow" and many others. Marcus On 25 Jan 2005 at 10:23, Jeff Newberry wrote: > I address this email primarily with academics in mind, > but I think anyone who loves poetry might be able to > help me. So, if you haven't taught or never will, > please don't think that I'm not talking to you, as > well. > > I'm teaching an honors writing section this semester. > My theme and course title is "Poetry and Persuasion." > We're looking at poems from a rhetorical standpoint, > talking about the way(s) in which a poetic text can > persuade a reader, and analyzing poems in light of > Aristotelian rhetoric. Although the class is barely > three weeks old, I feel a real disconnect between the > students and the material. > > Don't get mre wrong--the students are great. They're > willing to discuss and willing to participate. But > there's a kind of amorphous "so what" hanging in the > air of every class. > > I've been thinking that perhaps I hit them with theory > too much and too early. Today in class, we talked > about three Emily Dickinson poems--always a hard sell. > What I noticed was that my students wanted to talk > about what they felt the poems were intimating, just > not HOW the poems were sending the message. > > In short, I'm a bit lost as to how to proceed. When I > put this course together over the Christmas break, I > was very excited about it. Now, I'm afraid that I've > been too ambitious. > > Do any of you have any ideas on how to make what > probably seems very dry seem interesting? My major > problem seems to be that the students want *practical* > education. They want something they can use--NOW. I > argue that knowing how to read a text carefully and > responsibly is a good skill to have, particularly in > academia, where everything these days is less and less > about a given text and more and more about somebody's > fifedom or agenda. > > Does anyone have any practical advice for me? I > admire and respect almost all of you on the list, and > I'd very greatly appreciate your feedback. I'm such a > rank amateur at poetry; I feel that in my zeal I may > have somehow put off my students. > > Thanks a lot for your time. > > Jeff N. > > ===== > Jeff Newberry > > "Sometimes it's not so easy, > especially when your only friend > talks, sees, looks and feels like you, > and you do just the same as him." > --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad at opus40.org Tue Jan 25 13:55:46 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:55:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401c5030f$7cba3ce0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> It's an old chestnut, but could work for your purposes. Marc Antony's funeral oration. Use it with the scene that precedes it, where Antony makes the promise to Brutus about what he will and won't say, and then keeps his promise in a way that totally destroys Brutus. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Newberry" To: "Poetry News and Reviews" Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 1:23 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! >I address this email primarily with academics in mind, > but I think anyone who loves poetry might be able to > help me. So, if you haven't taught or never will, > please don't think that I'm not talking to you, as > well. > > I'm teaching an honors writing section this semester. > My theme and course title is "Poetry and Persuasion." > We're looking at poems from a rhetorical standpoint, > talking about the way(s) in which a poetic text can > persuade a reader, and analyzing poems in light of > Aristotelian rhetoric. Although the class is barely > three weeks old, I feel a real disconnect between the > students and the material. > > Don't get mre wrong--the students are great. They're > willing to discuss and willing to participate. But > there's a kind of amorphous "so what" hanging in the > air of every class. > > I've been thinking that perhaps I hit them with theory > too much and too early. Today in class, we talked > about three Emily Dickinson poems--always a hard sell. > What I noticed was that my students wanted to talk > about what they felt the poems were intimating, just > not HOW the poems were sending the message. > > In short, I'm a bit lost as to how to proceed. When I > put this course together over the Christmas break, I > was very excited about it. Now, I'm afraid that I've > been too ambitious. > > Do any of you have any ideas on how to make what > probably seems very dry seem interesting? My major > problem seems to be that the students want *practical* > education. They want something they can use--NOW. I > argue that knowing how to read a text carefully and > responsibly is a good skill to have, particularly in > academia, where everything these days is less and less > about a given text and more and more about somebody's > fifedom or agenda. > > Does anyone have any practical advice for me? I > admire and respect almost all of you on the list, and > I'd very greatly appreciate your feedback. I'm such a > rank amateur at poetry; I feel that in my zeal I may > have somehow put off my students. > > Thanks a lot for your time. > > Jeff N. > > ===== > Jeff Newberry > > "Sometimes it's not so easy, > especially when your only friend > talks, sees, looks and feels like you, > and you do just the same as him." > --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jan 25 14:01:21 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:01:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! Message-ID: <129.551be22a.2f27f181@cs.com> In a message dated 1/25/2005 12:56:12 PM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > t's an old chestnut, but could work for your purposes. Marc Antony's > funeral oration. Use it with the scene that precedes it, where Antony makes > the promise to Brutus about what he will and won't say, and then keeps his > promise in a way that totally destroys Brutus. Another great one is King Henry's speech to Hal about Richard II in Henry IV, I. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jan 25 14:10:46 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:10:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F64E87.27673.1066F70@localhost> Message-ID: <0acb01c50311$94059b90$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Pope's Essay on Criticism, too "When > Ajax strives some rock's vast weight to throw, The line too labors, > and the words move slow" and many others. But that couplet is not poetry (i.e., metrical)--it uses an inversion in line one and improper grammar to get a rhyme in line two. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 25 14:16:10 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:16:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <0acb01c50311$94059b90$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F654AA.11184.11E677D@localhost> > Pope's Essay on Criticism, too "When > > Ajax strives some rock's vast weight to throw, The line too labors, > > and the words move slow" and many others. > On 25 Jan 2005 at 14:10, Bob Grumman wrote: > But that couplet is not poetry (i.e., metrical)--it uses an inversion > in line one and improper grammar to get a rhyme in line two. Once again you seem not to understand the point, Bob. It is poetry because it is metrical. The question you're raising is whether it is good poetry. Your claim seems to be that it's bad poetry because there's an inversion (the lack of proper commas may be my, and not Pope's, fault). But this is typical of your misreading of poetry, Bob -- Pope's purpose here is to make the line awkward and difficult in order to echo Ajax's awkwardness and difficulty in moving the rock, you see? Jeez, it's like talking to freshman business majors. Do you ever read any poetry, Bob? Marcus From mandolin at mac.com Tue Jan 25 14:32:51 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:32:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <0acb01c50311$94059b90$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <41F64E87.27673.1066F70@localhost> <0acb01c50311$94059b90$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <10252463.1106681571470.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, January 25, 2005, at 02:14PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >Pope's Essay on Criticism, too "When >> Ajax strives some rock's vast weight to throw, The line too labors, >> and the words move slow" and many others. > >But that couplet is not poetry (i.e., metrical)--it uses an inversion in >line one and improper grammar to get a rhyme in line two. > >--Bob G. > > Metrical practice changes, Bob -- it's not an eternal monolith. One thing which has had an immense effect since Pope's time is that a normal education no longer includes training in Greek and Latin, inflected languages in which syntax plays a minor role. Without Classical models, educated readers become less trolerant of syntactical games such as the ones Pope plays here. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From mandolin at mac.com Tue Jan 25 14:50:28 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:50:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13823333.1106682628340.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, January 25, 2005, at 01:25PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: For a more recent poem than has so far been suggested, how about Paul Goodman? Here's a sample: FLAGS, 1967 How well they flew together side by side the Stars and Stripes my red and white and blue and my Black Flag the sovereignty of no man or law! They were the flags of pride and nature and advanced with equal stride across the age when Jefferson long ago saluted both and said, "Let Shays' men go. If you discourage mutiny and riot what check is there on government?" Today The gaudy flag is very grand on earth and they have sewed on it a golden border, but I will not salute it. At our rally I see a small black rag of little worth and touch it wistfully. Chaos is Order. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Jan 25 16:26:09 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:26:09 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin> <6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin> From: Bill Morgan <> One way of looking at Marvell's "To His Coy Mistress" is as a syllogistic response to the argument from analogy used by Donne in "The Flea". Both poems (among other things) depend on a *clear* allusion to a strictly logical trope. The fact that Donne's trope ("All oranges are round. / This tennis ball is round. / Therefore this tennis ball is an orange.") is manifestly fallacious, is part of the point of *his* poem, as is the logical correctness of Marvell's riposte with a syllogism. Actually, come to think of it, you could think of Donne employing rhetoric -- in the sense of the art of persuasion regardless of strict truth -- whereas Marvell indulges in a formally correct logical, less rhetorical activity. Robin Hamilton From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jan 25 16:26:51 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:26:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! Message-ID: <1c3.22d019bc.2f28139b@cs.com> In a message dated 1/25/2005 1:11:04 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > Pope's Essay on Criticism, too "When > >Ajax strives some rock's vast weight to throw, The line too labors, > >and the words move slow" and many others. > > But that couplet is not poetry (i.e., metrical)--it uses an inversion in > line one and improper grammar to get a rhyme in line two. Inversions were an accepted practice in Pope's era, when virtually everyone was so familiar with Latin syntax that they presented no problem. And "slow" is listed by the dictionary as both an adjective and adverb. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jan 25 16:32:42 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:32:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! Message-ID: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> Could anyone send me, via backchannel, any examples of "literary" rap? I mean poems by poets (instead of by recording artists) that incorporate the rhythmical structure of rap. I have a good one by Julie Kane (of the WOM-PO) list, one by a student of mine, Al Young's "Sundays in Democracies," and "Harlem Sweeties" by Hughes. Anything you can send as an attachment or a link would be useful. My poetry students just completed their first assignment (broadside ballads) and I'm using rap for the second. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Jan 25 16:59:25 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:59:25 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! Message-ID: <200501252138.j0PLceoB076220@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> There's a great one by Jeffrey McDaniel; I gotta try to track it down. I think it's called "white boy rap" or something like that. Maybe you could google it. ---------- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! Date: Tue, Jan 25, 2005, 1:32 PM Could anyone send me, via backchannel, any examples of "literary" rap? I mean poems by poets (instead of by recording artists) that incorporate the rhythmical structure of rap. I have a good one by Julie Kane (of the WOM-PO) list, one by a student of mine, Al Young's "Sundays in Democracies," and "Harlem Sweeties" by Hughes. Anything you can send as an attachment or a link would be useful. My poetry students just completed their first assignment (broadside ballads) and I'm using rap for the second. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Jan 25 16:47:47 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:47:47 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu> <00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin> > ... the argument from analogy > > ("All oranges are round. / This tennis ball is > round. / Therefore this tennis ball is an orange.") Even when I was writing this, it struck me as a particularly infelicitous, not to say nonsensical, example. better might be: Oranges are round Tennis balls are round Oranges are good to eat Therefore tennis balls are good to eat RH From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jan 25 16:50:16 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:50:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> Message-ID: <0b7f01c50327$dbb160d0$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Could anyone send me, via backchannel, any examples of "literary" rap? I mean poems by poets (instead of by recording artists) that incorporate the rhythmical structure of rap. I have a good one by Julie Kane (of the WOM-PO) list, one by a student of mine, Al Young's "Sundays in Democracies," and "Harlem Sweeties" by Hughes. Anything you can send as an attachment or a link would be useful. My poetry students just completed their first assignment (broadside ballads) and I'm using rap for the second. Frontchannel them, if you would. I, for one, would like to see them. Re: inversions, anyone know when a critic or poet explicitly found fault with their use. My impression is that the Elizabethans tried not to use them, but accepted them. My post was based on my strong impression that I was told I couldn't write metrical because when I tried to the result was badly done. I can't recall who told me that. I have always held that anything with a regular beat, arranged in some regular form, was metrical, even if it were nonsense. I count myself defeated about Pope's line, though. I like it and wouldn't have said anything against it if not for having been knocked by someone for thinkinbg I'd written in meter when I used an inversion. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Tue Jan 25 17:07:25 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:07:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050125220725.67673.qmail@web54602.mail.yahoo.com> >> We're looking at poems from a rhetorical standpoint, talking about the way(s) in which a poetic text can persuade a reader, and analyzing poems in light of Aristotelian rhetoric. << Speaking of *Aristotelian rhetoric* I just can't hold this: "... down the street, speed is not necessarily fast. Bullets are not necessarily specific. When the act is so self contained and so dazzling in itself the target then can disapear in the heated tension which is an area between here and formerly In some parts of the western world men have mistakenly called that phenomenology -- You mean, I encouraged there is no difference between appearence and -- "Reality?" he broke in I never "mean", remember, that's a mortal sin and Difference I have no sense of. That might be your sin and additionally -- Don't add, That's my stick, the Horse said smiling. ... And so you are mortal after all said I No mortal, you describe yourself I die, he said which is not the same as Mortality, and which is why I move between the Sun and you the ridge is my home and it's why you seem constructed of questions, uh, What's you name? i, I answered. That's a simple name Is it an initial? No it is a single. ... " *Gunslinger* (p. 30-32 in my book) Edward Dorn Jeff Newberry wrote: I address this email primarily with academics in mind, but I think anyone who loves poetry might be able to help me. So, if you haven't taught or never will, please don't think that I'm not talking to you, as well. I'm teaching an honors writing section this semester. My theme and course title is "Poetry and Persuasion." We're looking at poems from a rhetorical standpoint, talking about the way(s) in which a poetic text can persuade a reader, and analyzing poems in light of Aristotelian rhetoric. Although the class is barely three weeks old, I feel a real disconnect between the students and the material. Don't get mre wrong--the students are great. They're willing to discuss and willing to participate. But there's a kind of amorphous "so what" hanging in the air of every class. I've been thinking that perhaps I hit them with theory too much and too early. Today in class, we talked about three Emily Dickinson poems--always a hard sell. What I noticed was that my students wanted to talk about what they felt the poems were intimating, just not HOW the poems were sending the message. In short, I'm a bit lost as to how to proceed. When I put this course together over the Christmas break, I was very excited about it. Now, I'm afraid that I've been too ambitious. Do any of you have any ideas on how to make what probably seems very dry seem interesting? My major problem seems to be that the students want *practical* education. They want something they can use--NOW. I argue that knowing how to read a text carefully and responsibly is a good skill to have, particularly in academia, where everything these days is less and less about a given text and more and more about somebody's fifedom or agenda. Does anyone have any practical advice for me? I admire and respect almost all of you on the list, and I'd very greatly appreciate your feedback. I'm such a rank amateur at poetry; I feel that in my zeal I may have somehow put off my students. Thanks a lot for your time. Jeff N. ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Jan 25 17:14:16 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:14:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Help! Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE913@URANIUM.ripon.college> One of my favorite ways into such discussions is to compare two poems on the same theme, and ask students which is more effective, and why. Since the themes are "the same," they *have* to look at differences of tone, style, diction, etc. I often pair Roethke's "My Papa's Waltz" with Hayden's "Those Winter Sundays," for instance--2 poems in which a man remembers his father with very mixed feelings. Yet the poems are obviously different in all sorts of ways. Another favorite pairing is Komunyakaa's poem about the Vietnam Memorial, "Facing It," which I compare to Robert Morgan's poem "Vietnam Memorial." ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 1:01 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! > > <> > In a message dated 1/25/2005 12:56:12 PM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > > > t's an old chestnut, but could work for your purposes. Marc Antony's > funeral oration. Use it with the scene that precedes it, where Antony makes > the promise to Brutus about what he will and won't say, and then keeps his > promise in a way that totally destroys Brutus. > > > Another great one is King Henry's speech to Hal about Richard II in Henry IV, I. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Tue Jan 25 17:31:34 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:31:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <0b7f01c50327$dbb160d0$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> <0b7f01c50327$dbb160d0$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 4:50 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > I count myself defeated about Pope's line, though.? I like it and > wouldn't have said anything against it if not for having been knocked > by someone for thinkinbg I'd written in meter when I used an > inversion. > > --Bob G. > It's not unmetrical to use inversions; it's just that, as Sam and I both have said, they are so much of a departure from the ordinary speech of English speakers unused to Latin syntax that they are used only sparingly in contemporary poetry. Metrical rhythm comes from the interaction of speech and meter -- if, without good reason, either is too obviously distorted, the rhythm fails. One of the reasons meter can be perpetually new is that the language is always new. Mike S. From mandolin at mac.com Tue Jan 25 17:33:49 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:33:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> References: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> Message-ID: <2F07DBFA-6F21-11D9-8E62-000393C29586@mac.com> On Jan 25, 2005, at 4:32 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Could anyone send me, via backchannel, any examples of "literary" rap? > I mean poems by poets (instead of by recording artists) that > incorporate the rhythmical structure of rap.? I have a good one by > Julie Kane (of the WOM-PO) list, one by a student of mine, Al Young's > "Sundays in Democracies," and "Harlem Sweeties" by Hughes.? Anything > you can send as an attachment or a link would be useful.? My poetry > students just completed their first assignment (broadside ballads) and > I'm using rap for the second.?___________ Sam, you might try Aloud, the anthology from the Nuyorican Cafe. From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Tue Jan 25 17:36:12 2005 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:36:12 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> References: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> Message-ID: <1106692572.41f6c9dca45eb@webmail.ukonline.net> I think your course is ambitious, Jeff. Like others I find myself thinking of poems from other ages where the rhetorical category is one of the first things you think of, mainly 16thc and 17thc poetry, when rhetoric was a much-taught and valued subject. It has a very clear relevance to poets from Chaucer through to Dryden, especially in the politicized seventeenth century when it seems like every poet is urgently putting a case, even the ones who pretend not to. Stanley Fish's books Surprised by Sin (Milton) and Self-Consuming Artifacts (17th c prose) are exciting about how rhetoric operates surgically on a reader. Perhaps it would be good to give them a sense of a historical environment in which poetic persuasion was being played for tangibly high stakes, e.g. Dryden's Absalom, its attempt to rally one side and smear the other. But what would be challenging and where I'm sure you'd want to end up is considering persuasive devices in modern poetry and in particular the most distinctively modern poetry. When all trace of an authorial "I" voice has been obliterated, when poems are not apparently trying to impose ideas but only spark them, is persuasion indeed extinct? I'd guess probably not, but the task of pinning it down isn't going to be easy. Good luck. Could you maybe work from how Ashbery and O'Hara create agreeable voices that persuade us to drop our guard? Could it be that some of the formidable difficulties of modern poems arise because poets have given up on (or too deeply distrust) the idea of persuasion - and is this in every way a good thing? If you refuse to persuade, have you ceded too central an element of what human communication is, thrown out baby with bathwater? Is there perhaps a kind of impersonal, post-modernist transformation of persuasion so that it's no longer author persuading reader, but poem acting as a kind of filtering machine for whatever social pressures are already operating, weakening some of them and reinforcing others maybe. If the class can get on to these matters, it may be a way of discussing what function a poem has or could have or ought to have in our society, subjects on which they're bound to hold strong views already, though perhaps not much informed by detail. [nb to Bob - you seem to imply "metrical" is synonymous with being poetry - metrical surely applies specifically to meter, which Pope's couplet exemplifies, not any of the hundred other qualities(including word-order and grammar), that poems have. "Unmetrical" means not sticking to a meter, e.g. Spenser's Thereof nought remaynes but the memoree (where the accents are awry) or not attempting to suggest one, e.g. when the poet considers the repetitious patterning of meter (like rhyme) too crude an instrument for achieving the desired flexibility of sound and movement, as is now usually the case.] ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Tue Jan 25 17:36:31 2005 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:36:31 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> References: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> Message-ID: <1106692591.41f6c9ef71516@webmail.ukonline.net> I think your course is ambitious, Jeff. Like others I find myself thinking of poems from other ages where the rhetorical category is one of the first things you think of, mainly 16thc and 17thc poetry, when rhetoric was a much-taught and valued subject. It has a very clear relevance to poets from Chaucer through to Dryden, especially in the politicized seventeenth century when it seems like every poet is urgently putting a case, even the ones who pretend not to. Stanley Fish's books Surprised by Sin (Milton) and Self-Consuming Artifacts (17th c prose) are exciting about how rhetoric operates surgically on a reader. Perhaps it would be good to give them a sense of a historical environment in which poetic persuasion was being played for tangibly high stakes, e.g. Dryden's Absalom, its attempt to rally one side and smear the other. But what would be challenging and where I'm sure you'd want to end up is considering persuasive devices in modern poetry and in particular the most distinctively modern poetry. When all trace of an authorial "I" voice has been obliterated, when poems are not apparently trying to impose ideas but only spark them, is persuasion indeed extinct? I'd guess probably not, but the task of pinning it down isn't going to be easy. Good luck. Could you maybe work from how Ashbery and O'Hara create agreeable voices that persuade us to drop our guard? Could it be that some of the formidable difficulties of modern poems arise because poets have given up on (or too deeply distrust) the idea of persuasion - and is this in every way a good thing? If you refuse to persuade, have you ceded too central an element of what human communication is, thrown out baby with bathwater? Is there perhaps a kind of impersonal, post-modernist transformation of persuasion so that it's no longer author persuading reader, but poem acting as a kind of filtering machine for whatever social pressures are already operating, weakening some of them and reinforcing others maybe. If the class can get on to these matters, it may be a way of discussing what function a poem has or could have or ought to have in our society, subjects on which they're bound to hold strong views already, though perhaps not much informed by detail. [nb to Bob - you seem to imply "metrical" is synonymous with being poetry - metrical surely applies specifically to meter, which Pope's couplet exemplifies, not any of the hundred other qualities(including word-order and grammar), that poems have. "Unmetrical" means not sticking to a meter, e.g. Spenser's Thereof nought remaynes but the memoree (where the accents are awry) or not attempting to suggest one, e.g. when the poet considers the repetitious patterning of meter (like rhyme) too crude an instrument for achieving the desired flexibility of sound and movement, as is now usually the case.] ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 25 17:37:06 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:37:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! Message-ID: <13d.b6d9516.2f282412@aol.com> In a message dated 1/25/2005 1:56:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Use it with the scene that precedes it, where Antony makes the promise to Brutus about what he will and won't say, and then keeps his promise in a way that totally destroys Brutus Or Cavafy's The God Forsakes Antony, cast as sort of an internal monologue persuading himself to face his losses with calm resignation and courage. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 25 17:50:29 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:50:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <0b7f01c50327$dbb160d0$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F686E5.8031.173E00@localhost> On 25 Jan 2005 at 16:50, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... My post was based on my strong > impression that I was told I couldn't write metrical because when > I tried to the result was badly done.< Once again, a misunderstanding. Mike Snider and I were explicit about the distinction between, on the one hand, whether something was poetry or not, and, on the other, whether something was good or not. The whole point of the discussion was to try to unlink "poetry" from "good", to try to use "poetry" as a descriptive term for "metrical writing", as distinct from "prose". The purpose of trying break that link was to try to point out that non-metrical writers have been trying to use the word "poetry" to _mean_ "good" in an effort, and I think a failed effort, to try to push their non-metrical writing on the world as "good" by calling it "poetry" when in fact it is "prose" -- and whether it's good or not is another question entirely. But Grumman deliberately misunderstood, and evidently still misunderstands, this distinction. He is whining for pity that someone told him he can't write poetry because his attempt at metrical writing turned out to be metrical but badly done -- it was bad poetry. No one disputed that it was poetry, as Grumman claims here. He has a very selective memory and makes this pitiful nobody-loves-me whine constantly whenever anyone argues with his views. His notion is that any disagreement with his view is a personal attack that justifies all kinds of name-calling on his part. You want name- calling, Grumman? Ask around. Don't get me started. Marcus I can't recall who told me > that. I have always held that anything with a regular beat, > arranged in some regular form, was metrical, even if it were > nonsense. I count myself defeated about Pope's line, though. I > like it and wouldn't have said anything against it if not for > having been knocked by someone for thinkinbg I'd written in meter > when I used an inversion. --Bob G. > > > From mandolin at mac.com Tue Jan 25 17:52:40 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:52:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <1106692591.41f6c9ef71516@webmail.ukonline.net> References: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> <1106692591.41f6c9ef71516@webmail.ukonline.net> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 5:36 PM, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote: > poet considers the repetitious patterning of meter (like rhyme) too > crude an > instrument for achieving the desired flexibility of sound and > movement, as is > now usually the case.] Them's fighting words, stranger. Should I put a smiley here? I think about 90% ofthe time it just means that poet hasn't attained sufficent fluency with meter. Miek S. From MillB at aol.com Tue Jan 25 17:53:31 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:53:31 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Stories of First Books Message-ID: <87.1fdf3000.2f2827eb@aol.com> Greetings, I've just started re-working my piece on First Books and would like to know if anyone would like to share a story about a "first book." Maybe your own first book was published because of a friend of a friend you met at an airport or maybe you know of someone whose first book was accepted after 1,000 rejections. Maybe it was accepted because of a mix-up? Maybe a weird fluke? Right place at the right time? Maybe you heard a rumor about a scandal or mystery about a famous writer's first publication? Maybe you met a publisher at a residence or conference? Maybe yours was just a "normal" boring process. If then, what WAS the process? You met someone at Yaddo who translated your epic poem for a cousin in London who knew of a publisher. I'd appreciate hearing your stories of first books. Thanks, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Tue Jan 25 17:56:57 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:56:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin> References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> <003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <6A157EF2-6F24-11D9-8E62-000393C29586@mac.com> On Jan 25, 2005, at 1:33 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "Jeff Newberry" > >> I'm teaching an honors writing section this semester. >> My theme and course title is "Poetry and Persuasion." > ... >> My major >> problem seems to be that the students want *practical* >> education. They want something they can use--NOW. > > How about Andrew Marvell's "To His Coy Mistress" or John Donne's "The > Flea" > (or some more modern equivalents)? > > Nothing so practical for undergraduates as seduction. > > Robin Hamilton > for both sides (OK both the poets are male) Marlowe's "Passionate Shepherd to His Love" And then Raleigh's "The Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd" From mandolin at mac.com Tue Jan 25 18:04:05 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:04:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: References: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> <1106692591.41f6c9ef71516@webmail.ukonline.net> Message-ID: <691951EA-6F25-11D9-8E62-000393C29586@mac.com> On Jan 25, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > > On Jan 25, 2005, at 5:36 PM, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote: > >> poet considers the repetitious patterning of meter (like rhyme) too >> crude an >> instrument for achieving the desired flexibility of sound and >> movement, as is >> now usually the case.] > > Them's fighting words, stranger. Should I put a smiley here? > > I think about 90% ofthe time it just means that poet hasn't attained > sufficent fluency with meter. > > Miek S. > In addition to spelling my own name correctly, I should have added that I don't think fluency with meter is a necessary skill for a good poet. Marcus and I agree about many things, but I think that particular battle is long lost. Now, if only Bob G. had been around 150 years ago to make sure that free verse got called by some other name than "poetry" ... I almost serious about that. Mike S. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Jan 25 18:31:56 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:31:56 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com><1106692591.41f6c9ef71516@webmail.ukonline.net> Message-ID: <002c01c50336$0fadc190$e49c9951@Robin> Just to throw a spanner among the pigeons here (and I haven't perhaps been following this as closely as I should), there seems to be an assumption on both sides of the debate that "metrical writing" is not simply syllable accent but iambic pentameter. Now even "iambic pentameter" begs more than several questions -- rhymed or unrhymed? When? (as in: do Chaucer, Wyatt, Shakespeare, Milton Pope ... and so on ... all follow the same [implicit] rules?) Then octosyllabic iambics, even before we get to trochaic, anapaestic and dactylic ... ... and all that within one of several metrical *systems* which have been used, and many still are, in English. Stress metre is another metrical system, and *that* can be similarly unteased along a range from strict Anglo Saxon alliterative metre at one end of the scale to simple four-beats-to-the-line at the other. Then there's dipodic metre, the metre of nursery rhymes and ballads. Syllable-Accent, Stress Metre and Dipodic Metre -- all three seem to me to be "metrical" metres in the fullest sense. When we come to Classical (quantative) metrics, syllabics, and free verse, I think there's perhaps more of an ambiguity around the idea of metricality. I'll (pusillanimously) leave free verse aside, but syllabics *has* achieved a naturalised status, with the haiku if nothing else. As to Classical/Quantative metre -- well, it's been tried using length (never very successfully) and with an accentual substitution for length in Greek and Latin. Again, never very successfully, with the exception of the Sapphic stanza (Philip Sidney was the first person to write one of these in English) which is still alive and well and written today and has been pretty much continuously around since Isaac Watts' "The Day of Judgement" in 1707 -- Timothy Steele's "Sapphics against anger", for instance, not that long ago. The point I'm making, both long-windedly and pretentiously, is that it's *much* to simple to draw a simple opposition between metrical and non-metrical poetry -- "metre" simply covers too many things to be taken as given. Robin Hamilton From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 25 20:00:01 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:00:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <002c01c50336$0fadc190$e49c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <41F6A541.27282.8DD41B@localhost> On 25 Jan 2005 at 23:31, Robin Hamilton wrote: > ... it's *much* to simple to draw a simple opposition between metrical and > non-metrical poetry -- "metre" simply covers too many things to be > taken as given. I don't draw any opposition at all between metrical and non-metrical poetry; I hold that metrical writing is poetry and non-metrical writing is prose. There is good poetry and bad poetry, good prose and bad prose -- but writing is not worse because it's called prose instead of being called poetry. You can do art in prose, of course, even in short little bits of prose. Marcus From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Jan 25 20:25:26 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:25:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help!/Poetry & Persuasion In-Reply-To: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jeff, you may already be using this, but in case not, let me recommend Carl Dennis's prose collection *Poetry as Persuasion*, from U Georgia Press. A very interesting set of essays, and it's full of good example poems. Dennis's own poetry might also provide some fodder, if you're hunting for contemporary examples. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From mandolin at mac.com Tue Jan 25 20:29:44 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:29:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <002c01c50336$0fadc190$e49c9951@Robin> References: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> <1106692591.41f6c9ef71516@webmail.ukonline.net> <002c01c50336$0fadc190$e49c9951@Robin> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 6:31 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Just to throw a spanner among the pigeons here (and I haven't perhaps > been > following this as closely as I should), there seems to be an > assumption on > both sides of the debate that "metrical writing" is not simply syllable > accent but iambic pentameter. > > Now even "iambic pentameter" begs more than several questions -- > rhymed or > unrhymed? When? (as in: do Chaucer, Wyatt, Shakespeare, Milton Pope > ... > and so on ... all follow the same [implicit] rules?) > > Then octosyllabic iambics, even before we get to trochaic, anapaestic > and > dactylic ... > > ... and all that within one of several metrical *systems* which have > been > used, and many still are, in English. > > Stress metre is another metrical system, and *that* can be similarly > unteased along a range from strict Anglo Saxon alliterative metre at > one end > of the scale to simple four-beats-to-the-line at the other. > > Then there's dipodic metre, the metre of nursery rhymes and ballads. > > Syllable-Accent, Stress Metre and Dipodic Metre -- all three seem to > me to > be "metrical" metres in the fullest sense. > > When we come to Classical (quantative) metrics, syllabics, and free > verse, I > think there's perhaps more of an ambiguity around the idea of > metricality. > > I'll (pusillanimously) leave free verse aside, but syllabics *has* > achieved > a naturalised status, with the haiku if nothing else. > > As to Classical/Quantative metre -- well, it's been tried using length > (never very successfully) and with an accentual substitution for > length in > Greek and Latin. > > Again, never very successfully, with the exception of the Sapphic > stanza > (Philip Sidney was the first person to write one of these in English) > which > is still alive and well and written today and has been pretty much > continuously around since Isaac Watts' "The Day of Judgement" in 1707 > -- > Timothy Steele's "Sapphics against anger", for instance, not that long > ago. > > The point I'm making, both long-windedly and pretentiously, is that > it's > *much* to simple to draw a simple opposition between metrical and > non-metrical poetry -- "metre" simply covers too many things to be > taken as > given. > > Robin Hamilton > > I don't disagree at all with the above -- but wouldn't a syntactical inversion in a contemporary poem, done purely for the sake of the meter, be as problematic in any of the systems you mention as it is in accentual-syllabic meters? I admit it's hard to imagine such a thing in accentual verse. Mike S. From tad at opus40.org Tue Jan 25 20:48:08 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:48:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <1ee.33dd878a.2f2814fa@cs.com> Message-ID: <007e01c50349$1880d740$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Sam - The Last Poets were the progenitors of rap, and their best work holds up in literary terms. Do you know it? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Cc: WOM-PO at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! Could anyone send me, via backchannel, any examples of "literary" rap? I mean poems by poets (instead of by recording artists) that incorporate the rhythmical structure of rap. I have a good one by Julie Kane (of the WOM-PO) list, one by a student of mine, Al Young's "Sundays in Democracies," and "Harlem Sweeties" by Hughes. Anything you can send as an attachment or a link would be useful. My poetry students just completed their first assignment (broadside ballads) and I'm using rap for the second. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bentley at midcoast.com Tue Jan 25 21:35:46 2005 From: bentley at midcoast.com (Bentley) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:35:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! Rap-ish poetry References: <41F6A541.27282.8DD41B@localhost> Message-ID: <021501c5034f$be10f810$2de6950c@S0028976576> Below is a poem by Nikki Giovanni from 1999. I wouldn't say she is all that influenced by rap -- though she mentions Tupac in another poem from the same book _Blues for All the Changes_. And has a poem for Tupac "All Eyes on U (For 2pac Shakur 1791-1996). Instead, it could be argued that she influenced the formation of rap. She was writing long before rap became a musical genre with any marketing clout. Musically, she is more influenced by jazz. But the line between jazz and good rap is often fuzzy.... If one would like to listen to her poetry, I'ld recommend, In Philadelpia. An early rap classic (1974), "The Revolution Will Not be Televised" by Gil Scott-Heron would be worth looking into as well. Monday by Nikki Giovanni Now there you are sitting in traffic waiting for a gap so you can scoot on out and be on your way to work and as you listen to the tick tick tick of your blinker warning the folks behind you that you are turning left you begin to notice that a lot of people more than ou normally think of are turning right and shouting things at you and you being southern born and bred throw your hand up and smile and say hi neighbor which in reflection reminds you of your father who was always a hearty fellow well met early in the morning and of course while you are waving to your neighbors turning right you have missed the gap and it is easy to see that you won't be late because being late is not an option when you leave the house at seven fifteen but you are going to have to hustle and actually the hustle was a dance that went out with the disco era and you actually regret that The Bee Gees did what a lot of silly white boys did they thought if they take enough drugs they will be able to sing Black which in the Bee Gees' case is high and I do like the Bee Gees and appreciate the imitation the disco sound created and though everybody wants to laugh at it and call it elevator music it wasn't when it started because it started as gay America's coming out anthem and while the regular man on top of woman man penetrating woman man going to sleep woman going to masturbate was used to hearing Black sounds and making it theirs and even now people come up to Johnny mathis and say you are the reason I lost my cherry or something and even now half the children in America are because of the sexy sound of Ronald Isley and even now the old smoothies who think it was the sound of Frank Sinatra which it wasn't because the sound of Frank Sinantra is the sound of Billie Holiday and when even the tone deaf right-wingers recognized that everyone would reorganize that they started calling him old blue eyes as if anyone ever sat at a bar in the middle of the night drinking one for my baby and one more for the road called for another old blue eyes I mean hell no you call for "I'm a Fool to Want you" and if you can walk you go to the phone and drop a dime in to see is he still at home but no one does any of that anymore because we all have cell phones so you page your lover now and I don't have a clue what quarreling lovers listen to but disco was revolutionary not because folks were shaking their booty but because it was extremely important to look good and be cool and if the disco era had prevailed we would have won the war on poverty and schoolchildren would now be deconstructing Dinner with Gershwin cause it is very very true I want to get next to you but they don't have a clue as to what to do with a gay sound so they could either try to turn it off by beating up the gays but the band played on so they put the music in the elevators to make it irrelevant like they want to make Benny Goodman the king of Swing like they made Elvis fat then put him in Vegas like they stole rhythm and blues and call it rock like they hope you forget that jass was first a term for sex which is fun when you are young So you sit in traffic and remind yourself that you are indeed an old woman because ther was a time line of traffic or not when you would have found that edge and slipped your car seamlessly into it throwing up your hand in that manner of thanks while skipping off to work but today Charlie Mingus is playing "slop" and you always that the "Slop" was a dance your sister and her Indianapolis friends did to a tune called "Searchin'" by a group called the Coasters speaking of which there has been no traffic for the last five minutes so you need to hit it and get in traffic and go to work and be a productive citizen and work hard so that you can pay your taxes and eat your broccoli so that you will stay healthy and go to the mall so that other people can be productive citizens and do the right thing so that your family can be proud of you and the duct-work on your heat pump can be paid for and all manner of being responsible should fall on your shoulders and you should bravely brazenly boldly take up the cudgel but Thelonius Mond will be the next CD so you sit there waiting for the dissonance of harmony while your neighbors keep calling out good morning From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jan 25 21:40:13 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:40:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F6A541.27282.8DD41B@localhost> Message-ID: <0c5c01c50350$5d2ffc20$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >. . . I hold that metrical writing is poetry and non->metrical writing is >prose. Lineation doesn't come into it? --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 25 22:03:05 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:03:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <0c5c01c50350$5d2ffc20$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F6C219.6292.462AE6@localhost> > >. . . I hold that metrical writing is poetry and non->metrical > >writing is prose. > On 25 Jan 2005 at 21:40, Bob Grumman wrote: > Lineation doesn't come into it? Lineation is a function of meter. Marcus From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jan 25 22:29:57 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:29:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! Message-ID: <9d.57f8f299.2f2868b5@cs.com> In a message dated 1/25/2005 7:49:31 PM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > > Sam - The Last Poets were the progenitors of rap, and their best work holds > up in literary terms. Do you know it? > > No, I don't. Where can I find it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Jan 25 22:36:42 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:36:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <007e01c50349$1880d740$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 1/25/05 7:48 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: Sam - The Last Poets were the progenitors of rap, and their best work holds up in literary terms. Do you know it? ================= The Last Poets appear on the invaluable Rhino Records collection *Our Souls Have Grown Deep Like The Rivers*. No text, though, just the audio. There's a cut of Gil Scott Heron, too. I like to play The Last Poets in my Poetry Aloud class to show students some of the roots of current rap. Other roots are in the Jamaican dancehall, and there are a whole lot of Dub poets out there. Probably the easiest to find examples of online would be Linton K. Johnson. There are any number of slam poets who overlap with rap, also. Best I've heard is probably Saul Williams, whose CD *Amythyst Rocks* might be the sort of thing you're looking for. He's definitely a slammer/performance poet, though, so his stuff really needs to be heard. A number of his pieces are online. Here's his home page: http://www.saulwilliams.com/ ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jan 25 22:20:17 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:20:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F6C219.6292.462AE6@localhost> Message-ID: <0ca001c50358$3669dcc0$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> >. . . I hold that metrical writing is poetry and non->metrical >> >writing is prose. >> > On 25 Jan 2005 at 21:40, Bob Grumman wrote: >> Lineation doesn't come into it? > > Lineation is a function of meter. > > Marcus > Okay, although that isn't necessarily so, according to the dictionary. What about lineated texts that rhyme but are not metrical? Are they prose, as your definition claims they must be? --Bob G. From elemenope at icubed.com Tue Jan 25 11:31:07 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:31:07 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! (Jeff Newberry) In-Reply-To: <200501252244.j0PMioAm028379@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200501252244.j0PMioAm028379@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Pound. Usura rants, rap, cantos. Of course, so much of Pound is an attempt to convince, to instruct, to explain. Autodidactical village explainer. Attacks and defenses, pavannes and divagations "inside the mind." Much famous American poetry from 1960 through the 80s became propaganda which even if metered and filled with amazing visions sought to convince people to adopt a seditious lifestyle. Ginsberg and his followers. Buddhist logic replaced Aristotle. As to the syllogism discussion, it would be well to revisit Yvor Winters. But, to go back to Winters out of necessity because "we" cannot now move forward in "alternative" writing without knowing how to use tools the propaganda of our recent history ignored is to drop the "alternative" charade. I have fought fire with fire, but all along I knew better. R i c h a r d D i l l o n -- From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Wed Jan 26 05:32:45 2005 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:32:45 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <0ca001c50358$3669dcc0$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <41F6C219.6292.462AE6@localhost> <0ca001c50358$3669dcc0$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1106735565.41f771cde28f6@webmail.ukonline.net> To Miek (I'm going to spell my name that way too from now on, it looks good): - yes, I agree, nearly all students and a good many writers really have no idea what meter is or how to write it all, let alone expressively. These facts are significant in themselves. Nevertheless, the point I wanted to emphasise was that that our most serious and best poets don't tend to be interested in that metrical lilt, they prefer to go in other directions. It may be of course that their choice and the metrical illiteracy of modern readers are by no means unconnected phenomena. - Any poet with some sense of rational perspective is going to exploit those linguistic veins that her/his culture is already highly sensitized to; that's where communication is likely to be most potent. At the present time, meter isn't one of those veins. Bob/Marcus - I agree with Bob on this - Lineation isn't really a part of meter and can have structural significations quite apart from meter and indeed in its absence as Bob points out. e.g. graphical and visual, to name only the most obvious. It's true that we tend to associate the two because for the last few hundred years printers have used lineation to assist the reader in pointing up metrical form. But when Romans wrote down Horace's odes or Virgil, they didn't lineate. Robin - true, there are many kinds of meters, some much looser than others. It's easy to see if a word has been accidentally missed out of a Shakespeare sonnet because the meter tells you, but you couldn't really do that with Langland, though Langland's poetry is certainly metrical, but it allows and even demands a certain admixture of deviant lines. So I accept that "unmetrical" is a more useful term in some contexts than others. However, there seems to me a Fairly clear contrast between all the various kinds of meter you've mentioned - all of which are to some degree ancestrally connected with song, rhythm and mnemonic device - and a good modern poem that, while it may be extremely alert to its own sound, flow, rhythm and pauses, doesn't really make any kind of contract with the reader about sticking to an underlying pattern. With such poems - which include the bulk of the modern poetry that anyone talks about, populist, mainstream or post-avant - I don't feel the term "meter" is useful, one does better to speak of features like volume, speed, sibilance, length and so on - to draw a dangerous analogy, rather as a piece of post-Schoenberg music would still have pitch and interval but might not have a key or time signature. These, like meter in poetry, are really contexts that the audience are invited to pre-load, so to speak, and then to interpret what they hear subsequently within those pre-loaded contexts. ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 26 07:12:51 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:12:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups Message-ID: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> In a message dated 1/26/2005 4:33:20 AM Central Standard Time, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: > To Miek (I'm going to spell my name that way too from now on, it looks > good): - > yes, I agree, nearly all students and a good many writers really have no > idea > what meter is or how to write it all, let alone expressively. These facts > are > significant in themselves. Nevertheless, the point I wanted to emphasise was > > that that our most serious and best poets don't tend to be interested in > that > metrical lilt, they prefer to go in other directions. It may be of course > that > their choice and the metrical illiteracy of modern readers are by no means > unconnected phenomena. - Any poet with some sense of rational perspective is > > going to exploit those linguistic veins that her/his culture is already > highly > sensitized to; that's where communication is likely to be most potent. At > the > present time, meter isn't one of those veins. I'd hate to think that Richard Wilbur isn't among "our most serious and best poets"! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 26 07:19:20 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:19:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups Message-ID: In a message dated 1/26/2005 4:33:20 AM Central Standard Time, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: > It's true that we tend to associate the two because for the > last few hundred years printers have used lineation to assist the reader in > pointing up metrical form. But when Romans wrote down Horace's odes or > Virgil, > they didn't lineate. Why did they need to lineate (which would have wasted precious papyrus) when the meters told the ear where the lines broke? A poem written in iambic pentameter, printed without lineation as prose, could be reconstructed in lines simply by listening to it and counting. The Ellesmere manuscript, to cite one example, precedes Gutenberg by a half century and is lineated. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 26 07:21:15 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:21:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 7:12 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/26/2005 4:33:20 AM Central Standard Time, > m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: > > To Miek (I'm going to spell my name that way too from now on, it looks > good): - > yes, I agree, nearly all students and a good many writers really have > no idea > what meter is or how to write it all, let alone expressively. These > facts are > significant in themselves. Nevertheless, the point I wanted to > emphasise was > that that our most serious and best poets don't tend to be interested > in that > metrical lilt, they prefer to go in other directions. It may be of > course that > their choice and the metrical illiteracy of modern readers are by no > means > unconnected phenomena. - Any poet with some sense of rational > perspective is > going to exploit those linguistic veins that her/his culture is > already highly > sensitized to; that's where communication is likely to be most > potent. At the > present time, meter isn't one of those veins. > > > I'd hate to think that Richard Wilbur isn't among "our most serious > and best poets"!______ Or Mark Jarman, Alicia Stallings, David Mason, Glyn Maxwell, Charles Martin, Rhina Espaillat, Kim Addonizio, Annie Finch, Sam himself ... From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jan 26 07:31:16 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:31:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <0ca001c50358$3669dcc0$31b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F74744.31518.29E20E@localhost> > >> >. . . I hold that metrical writing is poetry and non->metrical > >> >writing is prose. > >> > > On 25 Jan 2005 at 21:40, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Lineation doesn't come into it? > > > > Lineation is a function of meter. > > Marcus > > On 25 Jan 2005 at 22:20, Bob Grumman wrote: > Okay, although that isn't necessarily so, according to the dictionary. > What about lineated texts that rhyme but are not metrical? Are they > prose, as your definition claims they must be? The dictionary's function is not to be the court of last appeal for those knowledgeable in any given field, Bob -- but if you insist, I'll bet I can find some dictionary somewhere from sometime to support nearly any position. I hold that what distinguishes poetry from prose is meter, and that that has been the distinction between the two for thousands of years across human language. As Robin Hamilton and Mike Snider have pointed out, there are lots of kinds of meter in lots of kinds of languages. But that French or Greek poetry relies on this or that kind of meter to distinguish poetry from prose, while English or Japanese on this or that other kind of meter supports rather than undermines my position that meter is the distinguishing factor between poetry and prose. Rhyme is not of the essence to distinguish between poetry and prose, but to address your question, I'd suspect that lineated texts that rhyme but are not metrical were intended to be metrical and simply failed to be so, or are metrical in a way you don't immediately recognize, or are satirical, or mockery, or out of meter to make some other point. Here's an example: There once was a New York novelist named Peter Who tried to write neater Limerick lines Than mine But since he's a novelist not a poet he just fucked up the meter. My question is, and has long been, why do you, or any of the others who do non-meter writing, insist on calling it "poetry"? Why not just accept that it's prose, since you reject meter as a tool to make art with in the first place? I think it's because "poetry" has a privileged position in our culture that "prose" does not have, and you want to claim the privilege of being known as a poet without having to learn how to do what it takes to be a poet. Thus you are trying to co-opt the word "poetry", and make a claim to be doing valuable work in the field of "poetry", while still going on to do whatever the hell you please, and still claim the benefits you have not earned. This is a simple matter, really, Bob. Call what you do "prose" and you'll hear no more from me about why it should not be called "poetry". I do not say you are not making art; I do not say what you do is not good; I take no position, at present, on those issues. I simply say that what you're doing is not poetry. You may be able to persuade me that your combination of prose and math symbols and images is art, but since there's no meter to it, it's simply not poetry. If you want to write poetry, you must write in meter; everything else is prose, however you may lineate it. There is no disgrace to writing prose, Bob -- great artists have made great art in prose. There is no hierarchy of arts, Bob -- poets are not better artists than prose writers merely by virtue of writing in meter, any more than prose writers are better artists than poets merely by virtue of writing prose. Marcus From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jan 26 07:35:19 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:35:19 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: Message-ID: <41F78E87.38F12E2A@earthlink.net> You might also give a listen to Carl Hancock Rux. http://www.carlhancockrux.com/home/ has a link ("Music") that will take you to some sample cuts. I recommend "Rux Review" as a good intro. - Jim David Graham wrote: > > on 1/25/05 7:48 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > > Sam - The Last Poets were the progenitors of rap, and their > best work holds up in literary terms. Do you know it? > ================= > > The Last Poets appear on the invaluable Rhino Records > collection *Our Souls Have Grown Deep Like The Rivers*. No > text, though, just the audio. There's a cut of Gil Scott > Heron, too. > > I like to play The Last Poets in my Poetry Aloud class to > show students some of the roots of current rap. Other roots > are in the Jamaican dancehall, and there are a whole lot of > Dub poets out there. Probably the easiest to find examples > of online would be Linton K. Johnson. > > There are any number of slam poets who overlap with rap, > also. Best I've heard is probably Saul Williams, whose CD > *Amythyst Rocks* might be the sort of thing you're looking > for. He's definitely a slammer/performance poet, though, so > his stuff really needs to be heard. A number of his pieces > are online. > > Here's his home page: > > http://www.saulwilliams.com/ > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jan 26 08:02:19 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:02:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" Message-ID: Lights That top-secret flight at night. We might have been shot down. The night calm and clear. The sky teeming, swarming with stars. The Milky Way so bright behind the thick pane of the window, a sparkling white mass in the black night with its millions of evolutionary and revolutionary changes. We were going over the water to avoid Somoza's air force, but close to the coast. The small plane flying low, and flying slowly. First the lights of Rivas, taken and retaken by Sandinists, now almost in Sandinist hands. Then other lights: Granada, in the hands of the Guard (it would be attacked that night). Masaya, completely liberated. So many fell there. Farther out a bright glow: Managua. Site of so many battles. (The Bunker.) Still the stronghold of the Guard. Diriamba, liberated. Jinotepe, fighting it out. So much heroism glitters in those lights. Montelimar--the pilot shows us--: the tyrant's estate near the sea. Puerto Somoza, next to it. The Milky Way above, and the lights of Nicaragua's revolution. Out there, in the north, I think I see Sandino's campfire. ("That light is Sandino.") The stars above us, and the smallness of this land but also its importance, these tiny lights of men. I think: everything is light. The planet comes from the sun. It is light turned solid. This plane's electicity is light. Its metal is light. The warmth of life come from the sun. "Let there be light." There is also darkness. There are strange reflections--I don't know where they come from--on the clear surface of the windows. A red glow: the tail lights of the plane. And reflections on the calm sea: they must be stars. I look at the light from my cigarette--it also comes from the sun, from a star. And the outline of a great ship. The U.S. aircraft carrier sent to patrol the Pacific coast? A big light on our right startles us. A jet attacking? No. The moon coming out, a half-moon, so peaceful, lit by the sun. The danger of flying on such a clear night. And suddenly the radio. Jumbled words filling the small plane. The Guard? The pilot says: "It's our side." They're on our wavelengths. Now we're close to Le?n, the territory liberated. A burning reddish-orange light, like the red-hot tip of a cigar: Corinto: the powerful lights of the docks flickering on the sea. And now at last the beach at Poneloya, and the plane coming in to land, the string of foam along the coast gleaming in the moonlight. The plane coming down. A smell of insecticide. And Sergio tells me: "The smell of Nicaragua!" It's the most dangerous moment, enemy aircraft may be waiting for us over this airport. And the airports lights at last. We've landed. From out of the dark come olive-green-clad comrades to greet us with hugs. We feel their warm bodies, that also come from the sun, that also are light. This revolution is fighting the darkness. It was daybreak on July 18th. And the beginning of all that was about to come. 1979 --Ernesto Cardenal, trans. Jonathan Cohen fr. *Zero Hour and Other Documentary Poems* [New York: New Directions, 1980] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 26 08:24:14 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:24:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> Message-ID: <11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 07:21AM, Michael Snider wrote: > >On Jan 26, 2005, at 7:12 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 1/26/2005 4:33:20 AM Central Standard Time, >> m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: >> Nevertheless, the point I wanted to >> emphasise was >> that that our most serious and best poets don't tend to be interested >> in that >> metrical lilt, they prefer to go in other directions. It may be of >> course that >> their choice and the metrical illiteracy of modern readers are by no >> means >> unconnected phenomena. - Any poet with some sense of rational >> perspective is >> going to exploit those linguistic veins that her/his culture is >> already highly >> sensitized to; that's where communication is likely to be most >> potent. At the >> present time, meter isn't one of those veins. >> >> >> I'd hate to think that Richard Wilbur isn't among "our most serious >> and best poets"!______ > >Or Mark Jarman, Alicia Stallings, David Mason, Glyn Maxwell, Charles >Martin, Rhina Espaillat, Kim Addonizio, Annie Finch, Sam himself ... > > AND Rafael Campo, Greg Williamson, Julia Alvarez, Marilyn Hacker, Tim Murphy, Tim Steele, Beth Gylys, Jenny Factor, Don Paterson, Fred Turner, Dana Gioia (a name I know will raise some hackles here, but so what), Deborah Warren, Paul Lake, Don Paterson, Kay Ryan, Michael Donaghy -- damnit, he should still be with us -- Marcus Bales can write circles around Ron Silliman. And Wendy Cope's Wasteland Limericks are worth the whole of Jorie Graham. We probably won't live long enough know if any of the above (except Wilbur) are really among the best and most serious of poets writing in English today, but they have as good a claim as anyone and better than most. miek s (it is kind of neat) ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 08:31:40 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:31:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F74744.31518.29E20E@localhost> Message-ID: <009101c503ab$5e8c2160$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> >> >. . . I hold that metrical writing is poetry and non->metrical >> >> >writing is prose. >> >> >> > On 25 Jan 2005 at 21:40, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> Lineation doesn't come into it? >> > >> > Lineation is a function of meter. >> > Marcus >> > > On 25 Jan 2005 at 22:20, Bob Grumman wrote: >> Okay, although that isn't necessarily so, according to the dictionary. >> What about lineated texts that rhyme but are not metrical? Are they >> prose, as your definition claims they must be? > > The dictionary's function is not to be the court of last appeal for > those knowledgeable in any given field, Bob -- but if you insist, > I'll bet I can find some dictionary somewhere from sometime to > support nearly any position. I hold that what distinguishes poetry > from prose is meter, and that that has been the distinction between > the two for thousands of years across human language. As Robin > Hamilton and Mike Snider have pointed out, there are lots of kinds of > meter in lots of kinds of languages. But that French or Greek poetry > relies on this or that kind of meter to distinguish poetry from > prose, while English or Japanese on this or that other kind of meter > supports rather than undermines my position that meter is the > distinguishing factor between poetry and prose. And what equivalent of free verse did the ancients call prose? The problem is that lineated unmetrical texts did not exist in ancient times (at least numerously enough to be thought about). When they did become important enough to be classified, it seemed obvious to most people that they were much more like what was called poetry than they were like what was called prose. > Rhyme is not of the essence to distinguish between poetry and prose, > but to address your question, I'd suspect that lineated texts that > rhyme but are not metrical were intended to be metrical and simply > failed to be so, or are metrical in a way you don't immediately > recognize, or are satirical, or mockery, or out of meter to make some > other point. Here's an example: > > There once was a New York novelist named Peter > Who tried to write neater > Limerick lines > Than mine > But since he's a novelist not a poet he just fucked up the meter. Very funny little rhyme. But you did not directly answer my question. How should we classify lineated unmetrical texts that have end rhymes? > My question is, and has long been, why do you, or any of the others > who do non-meter writing, insist on calling it "poetry"? Why not just > accept that it's prose, since you reject meter as a tool to make art > with in the first place? I think it's because "poetry" has a > privileged position in our culture that "prose" does not have, and > you want to claim the privilege of being known as a poet without > having to learn how to do what it takes to be a poet. Thus you are > trying to co-opt the word "poetry", and make a claim to be doing > valuable work in the field of "poetry", while still going on to do > whatever the hell you please, and still claim the benefits you have > not earned. > > This is a simple matter, really, Bob. Call what you do "prose" and > you'll hear no more from me about why it should not be called > "poetry". I do not say you are not making art; I do not say what you > do is not good; I take no position, at present, on those issues. I > simply say that what you're doing is not poetry. You may be able to > persuade me that your combination of prose and math symbols and > images is art, but since there's no meter to it, it's simply not > poetry. > > If you want to write poetry, you must write in meter; everything else > is prose, however you may lineate it. There is no disgrace to writing > prose, Bob -- great artists have made great art in prose. There is no > hierarchy of arts, Bob -- poets are not better artists than prose > writers merely by virtue of writing in meter, any more than prose > writers are better artists than poets merely by virtue of writing > prose. I call free verse poetry because it seems to me to have more in common with poetry than it does with prose. Prose is not lineated. Prose is not significantly concerned with the sound of its words. Prose generally is more concerned with its subject matter than with itself. Prose does not try to slow the reader the way poetry does. It's more utilitarian the poetry. Now a question for you: why must you attribute unattractive motives to your opponents? I do not say that you want to keep the privileged term, "poetry," all to yourself and those others who primarily write metrical works. I ignore your motives, which I can't know, unless you tell me them. Why can't you ignore mine--or accept that when I tell you that I call free verse poetry, I do so because I believe it makes sense to, period? Free verse is definitely NOT prose, and I find it inelegant to make up three categories, one of them for something as super-specialized (nowadays) as meterical texts. Sort of like dividning boats into power-boats, engineless boats, and canoes. It's so much smoother to me to divide literary texts into unlineated and lineated texts. (After having divided them into literary and non-literary texts, which I refuse to discuss with you on the grounds that we've already finished with that.) --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 08:38:46 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:38:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> Message-ID: <001f01c503ac$5e2ca6d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> The Miek shall inherit the earth. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In a message dated 1/26/2005 4:33:20 AM Central Standard Time, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: To Miek (I'm going to spell my name that way too from now on, it looks good): - yes, I agree, nearly all students and a good many writers really have no idea what meter is or how to write it all, let alone expressively. These facts are significant in themselves. Nevertheless, the point I wanted to emphasise was that that our most serious and best poets don't tend to be interested in that metrical lilt, they prefer to go in other directions. It may be of course that their choice and the metrical illiteracy of modern readers are by no means unconnected phenomena. - Any poet with some sense of rational perspective is going to exploit those linguistic veins that her/his culture is already highly sensitized to; that's where communication is likely to be most potent. At the present time, meter isn't one of those veins. I'd hate to think that Richard Wilbur isn't among "our most serious and best poets"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 08:43:35 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:43:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" References: Message-ID: <003e01c503ad$09fb5920$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> What is a documentary poem? Why cast a documentary in poetic form? Can being cast in poetic form add something to the documentary experience? Can giving documentary witness enrich a poem? I'm asking all this because Cardenal's poem works for me, as poem and as documentary. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:02 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" Lights That top-secret flight at night. We might have been shot down. The night calm and clear. The sky teeming, swarming with stars. The Milky Way so bright behind the thick pane of the window, a sparkling white mass in the black night with its millions of evolutionary and revolutionary changes. We were going over the water to avoid Somoza's air force, but close to the coast. The small plane flying low, and flying slowly. First the lights of Rivas, taken and retaken by Sandinists, now almost in Sandinist hands. Then other lights: Granada, in the hands of the Guard (it would be attacked that night). Masaya, completely liberated. So many fell there. Farther out a bright glow: Managua. Site of so many battles. (The Bunker.) Still the stronghold of the Guard. Diriamba, liberated. Jinotepe, fighting it out. So much heroism glitters in those lights. Montelimar--the pilot shows us--: the tyrant's estate near the sea. Puerto Somoza, next to it. The Milky Way above, and the lights of Nicaragua's revolution. Out there, in the north, I think I see Sandino's campfire. ("That light is Sandino.") The stars above us, and the smallness of this land but also its importance, these tiny lights of men. I think: everything is light. The planet comes from the sun. It is light turned solid. This plane's electicity is light. Its metal is light. The warmth of life come from the sun. "Let there be light." There is also darkness. There are strange reflections--I don't know where they come from--on the clear surface of the windows. A red glow: the tail lights of the plane. And reflections on the calm sea: they must be stars. I look at the light from my cigarette--it also comes from the sun, from a star. And the outline of a great ship. The U.S. aircraft carrier sent to patrol the Pacific coast? A big light on our right startles us. A jet attacking? No. The moon coming out, a half-moon, so peaceful, lit by the sun. The danger of flying on such a clear night. And suddenly the radio. Jumbled words filling the small plane. The Guard? The pilot says: "It's our side." They're on our wavelengths. Now we're close to Le?n, the territory liberated. A burning reddish-orange light, like the red-hot tip of a cigar: Corinto: the powerful lights of the docks flickering on the sea. And now at last the beach at Poneloya, and the plane coming in to land, the string of foam along the coast gleaming in the moonlight. The plane coming down. A smell of insecticide. And Sergio tells me: "The smell of Nicaragua!" It's the most dangerous moment, enemy aircraft may be waiting for us over this airport. And the airports lights at last. We've landed. From out of the dark come olive-green-clad comrades to greet us with hugs. We feel their warm bodies, that also come from the sun, that also are light. This revolution is fighting the darkness. It was daybreak on July 18th. And the beginning of all that was about to come. 1979 --Ernesto Cardenal, trans. Jonathan Cohen fr. *Zero Hour and Other Documentary Poems* [New York: New Directions, 1980] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jan 26 09:03:36 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:03:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" References: <003e01c503ad$09fb5920$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <006301c503af$d4e5fe90$bbaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Very interesting questions. From which one could assume that a poet without any experience has little to say, unless he (thinking of Rimbaud) is particularly talented, a poem _sometimes (and in this context)_ becomes more complete when to the personal (invented) voice of the poet, history is added, or a common environment, that _ even if not directly shared _ brings back to the reader similar experiences. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" > What is a documentary poem? Why cast a documentary in poetic form? Can being > cast in poetic form add something to the documentary experience? Can giving > documentary witness enrich a poem? > > I'm asking all this because Cardenal's poem works for me, as poem and as > documentary. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Halvard Johnson" > To: "New-Poetry" > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:02 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" > > > > > Lights > > That top-secret flight at night. > We might have been shot down. The night calm and clear. > The sky teeming, swarming with stars. The Milky Way > so bright behind the thick pane of the window, > a sparkling white mass in the black night > with its millions of evolutionary and revolutionary changes. > We were going over the water to avoid Somoza's air force, > but close to the coast. > The small plane flying low, and flying slowly. > First the lights of Rivas, taken and retaken by Sandinists, > now almost in Sandinist hands. > Then other lights: Granada, in the hands of the Guard > (it would be attacked that > night). > Masaya, completely liberated. So many fell there. > Farther out a bright glow: Managua. Site of so many battles. > (The Bunker.) Still the stronghold of the Guard. > Diriamba, liberated. Jinotepe, fighting it out. So much heroism > glitters in those lights. Montelimar--the pilot shows us--: > the tyrant's estate near the sea. Puerto Somoza, next to it. > The Milky Way above, and the lights of Nicaragua's revolution. > Out there, in the north, I think I see Sandino's campfire. > ("That light is Sandino.") > The stars above us, and the smallness of this land > but also its importance, these > tiny lights of men. I think: everything is light. > The planet comes from the sun. It is light turned solid. > This plane's electicity is light. Its metal is light. The warmth > of life come from the sun. > "Let there be light." > There is also darkness. > There are strange reflections--I don't know where they come > from--on the clear surface of the windows. > A red glow: the tail lights of the plane. > And reflections on the calm sea: they must be stars. > I look at the light from my cigarette--it also comes from the sun, > from a star. > And the outline of a great ship. The U.S. aircraft carrier > sent to patrol the Pacific coast? > A big light on our right startles us. A jet attacking? > No. The moon coming out, a half-moon, so peaceful, lit by the sun. > The danger of flying on such a clear night. > And suddenly the radio. Jumbled words filling the small plane. > The Guard? The pilot says: "It's our side." > They're on our wavelengths. > Now we're close to Le?n, the territory liberated. > A burning reddish-orange light, like the red-hot tip of a cigar: > Corinto: > the powerful lights of the docks flickering on the sea. > And now at last the beach at Poneloya, and the plane coming in > to land, > the string of foam along the coast gleaming in the moonlight. > The plane coming down. A smell of insecticide. > And Sergio tells me: "The smell of Nicaragua!" > It's the most dangerous moment, enemy aircraft > may be waiting for us over this airport. > And the airports lights at last. > We've landed. From out of the dark come olive-green-clad comrades > to greet us with hugs. > We feel their warm bodies, that also come from the sun, > that also are light. > This revolution is fighting the darkness. > It was daybreak on July 18th. And the beginning > of all that was about to come. > > 1979 > > --Ernesto Cardenal, trans. Jonathan Cohen > fr. *Zero Hour and Other Documentary Poems* > [New York: New Directions, 1980] > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 09:04:20 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:04:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> <11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >>> In a message dated 1/26/2005 4:33:20 AM Central Standard Time, >>> m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk writes: >>> > > > Nevertheless, the point I wanted to >>> emphasise was >>> that that our most serious and best poets don't tend to be interested >>> in that >>> metrical lilt, they prefer to go in other directions. It may be of >>> course that >>> their choice and the metrical illiteracy of modern readers are by no >>> means >>> unconnected phenomena. - Any poet with some sense of rational >>> perspective is >>> going to exploit those linguistic veins that her/his culture is >>> already highly >>> sensitized to; that's where communication is likely to be most >>> potent. At the >>> present time, meter isn't one of those veins. >>> >>> >>> I'd hate to think that Richard Wilbur isn't among "our most serious >>> and best poets"!______ >> >>Or Mark Jarman, Alicia Stallings, David Mason, Glyn Maxwell, Charles >>Martin, Rhina Espaillat, Kim Addonizio, Annie Finch, Sam himself ... >> >> > > AND Rafael Campo, Greg Williamson, Julia Alvarez, Marilyn Hacker, Tim > Murphy, Tim Steele, Beth Gylys, Jenny Factor, Don Paterson, Fred Turner, > Dana Gioia (a name I know will raise some hackles here, but so what), > Deborah Warren, Paul Lake, Don Paterson, Kay Ryan, Michael Donaghy -- > damnit, he should still be with us -- Marcus Bales can write circles > around Ron Silliman. And Wendy Cope's Wasteland Limericks are worth the > whole of Jorie Graham. > > We probably won't live long enough know if any of the above (except > Wilbur) are really among the best and most serious of poets writing in > English today, but they have as good a claim as anyone and better than > most. > > miek s (it is kind of neat) > Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of the arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, at the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working in new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most serious" of artists working in that period? --Bob G. From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 26 09:12:04 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:12:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> <11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 09:04AM, Bob Grumman wrote: ) >> > >Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of the >arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, at >the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working in >new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most >serious" of artists working in that period? > >--Bob G. > > William Butler Yeats, W. H. Auden, and Robert Frost, to name the most recent examples from poetry alone. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 26 09:20:40 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:20:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> <11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <12406776.1106749240154.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 09:04AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of the >arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, at >the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working in >new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most >serious" of artists working in that period? > >--Bob G. > And Richard Wilbur has no living peer -- perhaps Robert Creeley or Gary Snyder. But they're no more innovators than Wilbur. Most innovators -- like most traditionalists -- are simply forgotten. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From pmetres at jcu.edu Wed Jan 26 09:29:28 2005 From: pmetres at jcu.edu (Philip Metres) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:29:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] rap/poetry Message-ID: <42129b6f.c4be1b82.81a5500@mirapoint.jcu.edu> R.S., all, Thomas Sayers Ellis' just-released book, The Maverick Room, uses elements of rap/hip-hop, but with his own articulate spin. Hearing him read is a must, though, because he has a "reading" of the lines that employs more tricks than a traditionally text-centered prosodic analysis might account for. http://www.tsellis.com/pubs.html Best, Philip Metres Assistant Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 (216) 397-4528 (work) http://www.philipmetres.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jan 26 09:32:16 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:32:16 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <013001c503b3$d5ee4a00$db8f9a51@Robin> > Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of the > arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, at > the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working in > new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most > serious" of artists working in that period? > > --Bob G. The Eighteenth Century perhaps, with Pope? I'm a bit handicapped here, as I can't think who or what the alternative was then -- is Thomas Gray too late? Coleridge's experiment with stress metre in "Cristabel"? An innovation of sorts that was (at least then) a dead end. On the other hand, there's the 1380s, with the Gawain Poet and Langland (both, at that time, working in 'old forms') and Chaucer ('new form') all writing away in apparent ignorance of each other. In support of Bob's point, it was Chaucer who, in a sense, "won". But that doesn't (a) diminish the quality of the other two or (b) mean they were written out of the tradition forever. Francis Berry's "Morant Bay" and "Ghosts of Greenland" both read as if somehow the tradition had evolved from the Gawain Poet rather than Chaucer. ... not to speak of Auden passim (and the catastrophic "Age of Anxiety") and Pound in "The Seafarer" and (more successfully) in Canto One. Robin Hamilton From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 26 09:32:35 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:32:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> <11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <8209341.1106749955405.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 09:04AM, Bob Grumman wrote: >Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of the >arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, at >the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working in >new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most >serious" of artists working in that period? > >--Bob G. > > The works of Stravinsky and Bartok are far more conservative than those of their contemporary Schoenburg. The latter's serial-music technique is mostly a footnote. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jan 26 09:44:54 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:44:54 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <014d01c503b5$99be5a00$db8f9a51@Robin> > William Butler Yeats, W. H. Auden, and Robert Frost, to name the most recent examples from poetry alone. I think all three of your examples here are somewhat dubious, Mike. Auden *began* as a radically innovative poet, and suffered a sea change, both literal and metaphorical, when he went to America in 1939, but it tends to be his earlier poetry that's rated most highly today. Yeats, again at a certain point and with the poems which are now considered his best -- "Easter1916", say -- was breaking new ground. With Frost, the case is different. But construct a metaphorical scale-of-reputation, and put Frost in one pan, Eliot, Pound, Stevens or William Carlos Williams in the other ... Robin Hamilton From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 09:52:20 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:52:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <013001c503b3$d5ee4a00$db8f9a51@Robin> Message-ID: <013901c503b6$a3b841a0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Interesting question is if the old can become new? In the neo-formalists favor is perhaps that after the domination of free verse for a generation or two, formal verse became a new way of doing poetry again. I think the current received form is Iowa plaintext poetry. But I would then rephrase my question to ask about those artists in the MORE received form versus those in the new. Pope. What would have been the new when he was writing? I'm vague, as usual, but seems to me Jonson was newish in striving for more clarity, less ornament, and less slop, and poets afterwards generally followed him up to Pope, the cleanest songmode poet ever, probably. Then the romantics took over, followed by the freeversers, followed by language and visual poets, followed be cyberpoetries (which means I am now stuck in received forms, using received techniques). It's not straightforward, of course. But my impression is that when there are two distinct groups of artists in a field, one doing what SOME previous generation did, one doing what no previous generation did, the huge majority of artists who will be remembered will come from the second group. Thanks for the interesting data, your take on which seems sensible. --Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups >> Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of > the >> arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, >> at >> the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working > in >> new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most >> serious" of artists working in that period? >> >> --Bob G. > > The Eighteenth Century perhaps, with Pope? > > I'm a bit handicapped here, as I can't think who or what the alternative > was > then -- is Thomas Gray too late? > > Coleridge's experiment with stress metre in "Cristabel"? An innovation of > sorts that was (at least then) a dead end. > > On the other hand, there's the 1380s, with the Gawain Poet and Langland > (both, at that time, working in 'old forms') and Chaucer ('new form') all > writing away in apparent ignorance of each other. > > In support of Bob's point, it was Chaucer who, in a sense, "won". > > But that doesn't (a) diminish the quality of the other two or (b) mean > they > were written out of the tradition forever. > > Francis Berry's "Morant Bay" and "Ghosts of Greenland" both read as if > somehow the tradition had evolved from the Gawain Poet rather than > Chaucer. > > ... not to speak of Auden passim (and the catastrophic "Age of Anxiety") > and > Pound in "The Seafarer" and (more successfully) in Canto One. > > Robin Hamilton > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 09:59:49 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:59:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <013e01c503b7$af000600$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >>Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of >>the >>arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, at >>the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working >>in >>new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most >>serious" of artists working in that period? >> >>--Bob G. > William Butler Yeats, W. H. Auden, and Robert Frost, to name the most > recent examples from poetry alone. I wouldn't count Yeats; he was really of the previous generation. Auden and Frost, yes. But I was asking more WHICH group's artists would have been considered the best and most serious artists of the time. In the twentieth century it was the free verse group. To continue being malicious, I would ask when in the history of art did a group confining its practice to what the generation BEFORE the previous generation was doing produced more than a very few lasting artists, when another group was working in new forms, and using new techniques. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 26 10:09:36 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:09:36 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish poet whose lips could not be sealed Message-ID: <1c3.22d60cee.2f290cb0@aol.com> http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php4?article_id=5682 Scottish poet whose lips could not be sealed Jimmy Ross examines the legacy of Robert Burns, whose birth is remembered this week Robert Burns lived in the last third of the 18th century, a time of the most rapid change in Scottish history. The agrarian revolution was squeezing the peasantry, the class into which he had been born, out of existence. The industrial revolution was underway. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 10:10:17 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:10:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <12406776.1106749240154.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <015e01c503b9$25c137e0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 09:04AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > >> >>Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of >>the >>arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, at >>the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working >>in >>new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most >>serious" of artists working in that period? >> >>--Bob G. >> > > And Richard Wilbur has no living peer -- perhaps Robert Creeley or Gary > Snyder. But they're no more innovators than Wilbur. > > Most innovators -- like most traditionalists -- are simply forgotten. Again, I'm speaking of one (reasonably large) group versus a second. If you have a group of artists working in new forms with new techniques and a group working with the received only, posterity will almost certainly remember many more of the latter than of the former. As for Wilbur's having no living peer, that's complete baloney. He may be a Brahms, but there are Debusseys and Wagners around who are his equals at producing effective work, and ten times more important than he for increasing the possibilities of their art. You really shouldn't try to rate any poets but dead ones and living ones emulating dead ones, Michael. You simply don't have the kind of sensibility required to appreciate anything else--though you may not be as hopeless as Bales. Incidentally, I'm not so much speaking of innovators as simply of artists working with new forms and techniques--comparatively. Creeley was, Snyder not, since he is a standard free-verser using forms and techniques that were conventional by the time he started using them. Creeley went a step further, even making a visual poem or two. --Bob G. From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Wed Jan 26 10:13:55 2005 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:13:55 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> <11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1106752435.41f7b3b32edb6@webmail.ukonline.net> Quoting Bob Grumman : > Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of the > arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, at > the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working in > > new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most > serious" of artists working in that period? > > --Bob G. No, that's not malicious, it's a question that one has to consider, because there obviously are not many precedents. It may be that using words like "important", "significant" or (as I did) "serious" actually pre-codes a certain bias towards the kind of art that breaks new ground. Such art is bound to dominate histories of art. A response to your question would probably have to begin by denying its terms. For example, one could say that it is not the PRIMARY function of art to break new ground (that brings it suspiciously close to science, a model that tends to dominate our thoughts), but to do something that's really far more important, perhaps in poetry's case to "cheer the heart of man" (as per Keats), to promote the Kingdom of Heaven, to commemorate human greatness, to mourn beauty's passing, to be an unacknowledged legislator. I'm not arguing any of that myself, just trying to think of some possible lines of defence. But anyway, I believe there are cases where a great poet was in some respects technologically quite conservative. George Crabbe beggars belief by writing at the same time as our Romantic pantheon, but in an idiom fifty years out of date. That hasn't prevented him being much admired by later readers, and indeed recognized for his own uniqueness and his own innovations, different as they are from Shelley or Wordsworth. Then there are times (and the mention of those Romantics just made me think of this) when what we now rightly think of as "the cutting edge" of poetry was being fuelled partly by traditionalism and revivalism, in this case wild enthusiasm for ballads and the medieval and Gothick, all things that those oh- so-modern Augustans thought they'd consigned to the dustbin of history. It didn't turn out that way. But of course the new poetry didn't turn out to be a pale copy of its sources. If that's all it had been, if the Romantics had really been scholarly pasticheurs, then they'd be totally forgotten. Instead, we'll read Christabel and La Belle Dame for ever. Finally, I think of Shakespeare - in every respect the author who of all his contemporaries most changed the world. Yet it perhaps didn't look like that at the time. The modish, radical, disaffected writers were Donne, Marston, Chapman; intellectual, viciously satiric, deliberately obscure, cliquish. Good writers they are, too. But they would have hardly spared a thought for the mere player who south of the river was knocking out a string of plays for his rather conservative, patriotic audience of not-very-educated people drawn from across the class spectrum.... So I don't know, really. I think a modern poem should try and engage with modern experience. But no artist should let themselves be dictated to about what exactly that should mean in their case - in the end they've got to do their best with their own vision. ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 10:16:29 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:16:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <8209341.1106749955405.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <016501c503ba$03393b90$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > The works of Stravinsky and Bartok are far more conservative than those of > their contemporary Schoenburg. The latter's serial-music technique is > mostly a footnote. Stravinsky and Bartok were working with new forms and techniques, not with received forms and techniques (comparatively speaking). So Shoenberg (sp?) went further than they, so what? All three were in the new group. Who was writing like Brahms then that we admire the way we admire those three today? --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Jan 26 10:20:35 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:20:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reputedly In-Reply-To: <013e01c503b7$af000600$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 1/26/05 8:59 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > I wouldn't count Yeats; he was really of the previous generation. Auden and > Frost, yes. But I was asking more WHICH group's artists would have been > considered the best and most serious artists of the time. > In the twentieth century it was the free verse group. One small thought, then I guess I'll duck back into my bunker until the storm blows over. I think that one issue at work here that's not being fully articulated is this. Ranking and classifying poets by group affinity is, to some readers and critics, fascinating, even essential. More power to them, and go to it. But to others, what matters really is the poetry itself, poem by poem. A poet who, as Frost put it, manages to lodge a few where they'll be remembered--well, that's a good enough definition of greatness for me. Obviously, I belong to this second group. I don't much care whether Frost blazed any trails, metrically or otherwise (he did, actually)--not in the face of the splendor of "Home Burial" and the rest. I'm as sure as I am of any literary judgment that future eras will remember his best poems. And not because he wrote in meter or didn't do so. If one's aesthetic denies greatness to a poet simply because he did not innovate in form, well, that seems a pitiful reduction of possibility. Others will put forward different candidates for greatness, of course. To my eyes, the jury's still out on Pound, though he was obviously influential on younger poets, and that will preserve some reputation even if future eras tend to ignore his poems. We'll all be dead before this settles out, of course. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 10:19:07 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:19:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <002b01c503ba$63338b90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Brahms would be another. So would Sarah Vaughan and Carmen McRae. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Snider" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups > > On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 09:04AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > ) >>> >> >>Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of >>the >>arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, at >>the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working >>in >>new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most >>serious" of artists working in that period? >> >>--Bob G. >> >> > > > William Butler Yeats, W. H. Auden, and Robert Frost, to name the most > recent examples from poetry alone. > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 26 10:21:23 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:21:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups Message-ID: In a message dated 1/26/2005 9:45:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: But construct a metaphorical scale-of-reputation, and put Frost in one pan, Eliot, Pound, Stevens or William Carlos Williams in the other ... Do you mean Frost is a full counterweight to the other lot? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 10:23:04 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:23:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <014d01c503b5$99be5a00$db8f9a51@Robin> Message-ID: <003e01c503ba$eff21fb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Robin - every artist who contributes something of value is breaking new ground - Frost included, with his extension of the metered dramatic monologue into patterns of American speech. But these poets were still writing in essentially received forms. Anyone who paints figuratively in oil on canvas is working in a received form. Actually, Bob's question is meaningless, which I realize is a first. You can cut off, or extend, your definition of received forms to fit any argument. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups >> William Butler Yeats, W. H. Auden, and Robert Frost, to name the most > recent examples from poetry alone. > > I think all three of your examples here are somewhat dubious, Mike. > > Auden *began* as a radically innovative poet, and suffered a sea change, > both literal and metaphorical, when he went to America in 1939, but it > tends > to be his earlier poetry that's rated most highly today. > > Yeats, again at a certain point and with the poems which are now > considered > his best -- "Easter1916", say -- was breaking new ground. > > With Frost, the case is different. But construct a metaphorical > scale-of-reputation, and put Frost in one pan, Eliot, Pound, Stevens or > William Carlos Williams in the other ... > > Robin Hamilton > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 10:23:23 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:23:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Reputedly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050126152323.52596.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com> Thank you, David. Well said. --- David Graham wrote: > If one's aesthetic denies greatness to a poet simply > because he did not innovate in form, well, that > seems a pitiful reduction of possibility. Jeff ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jan 26 10:30:45 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:30:45 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <8209341.1106749955405.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: > The works of Stravinsky and Bartok are far more conservative > than those of their contemporary Schoenburg. That is not true. For one thing, Schonberg's technique is the logical (whatever that means in this context) development of intense motivic manipulation of melody that tracks back through Mahler, Reger, Brahms etc to Bach & Buxtehude. For another, Bartok's technical procedures are as sophisticated as (and probably more so than) Schonberg's. The difference is, we may say, that Bartok let his music do the talking, whereas Schonberg declared that he had 'invented a system that will ensure the superiority of German music for the next 200 years', or something daft like that. > The latter's serial-music technique is mostly a footnote. Nor is that. The influence of all three persists in what is called, faute de mieux, the European avant-garde tradition. You might find it amusing to learn, btw, that Webern thought Bartok's music 'discordant'. :P From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jan 26 10:30:28 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:30:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <016501c503ba$03393b90$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: { Stravinsky and Bartok were working with new forms and techniques, not with { received forms and techniques (comparatively speaking). So Shoenberg (sp?) { went further than they, so what? All three were in the new group. Who was { writing like Brahms then that we admire the way we admire those three today? { { --Bob G. Schoenberg was writing like Brahms himself some of the time. Then there were Richard Strauss, Mahler, and Sibelius to name a few others (though the last was more in a Tchaikovsky mode than a Brahms one). Hal From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jan 26 10:39:10 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:39:10 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: Message-ID: <004501c503bd$2ee614e0$db8f9a51@Robin> << In a message dated 1/26/2005 9:45:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: But construct a metaphorical scale-of-reputation, and put Frost in one pan, Eliot, Pound, Stevens or William Carlos Williams in the other ... >> > Do you mean Frost is a full counterweight to the other lot? > Finnegan Originally, I'd intended to put Frost in one scale, the other four in the other, but ... ... in some ways, all this is a bit frivolous. On a personal level, I like some (more than several) Frost poems, but I can't immerse myself in his work in the way that I've done with Pound, Eliot, and Stevens, *each* of whom are -- whatever this means -- more important to me as both reader and writer. I've a total block when it comes to WCW -- I can recognise, given how people whose judgement I respect admire him, that he's a great writer, but I just can't get it personally. This may be connected with how I'm not American, so my ear is tuned to a different place. Robin From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 26 10:41:38 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:41:38 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Reputedly Message-ID: <8e.1f8886ed.2f291432@aol.com> In a message dated 1/26/2005 10:19:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: If one's aesthetic denies greatness to a poet simply because he did not innovate in form, well, that seems a pitiful reduction of possibility. Yes, I think one does get some heavy credits and rightful kudos for being first to explore the 'terra incognito' of any art. The first caution of course is that some of this trailblazing leads to aesthetic dead-ends. Or an entire movement is born only to in time be distilled down to its technique...surrealism, being a ready example. Also, because art doesn't function as differently as we'd like to believe from other fields, like science, commerce, politics, etc., I think the odds are stacked against 'the innovator' actually producing the best work with or being most the successful at utilizing his own innovation. History is strewn with people who got there first with this or that next-big-thing, while others following along, picked up the device/concept and really knew what to do with it. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jan 26 10:46:41 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:46:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Pataphysica" Message-ID: <28631528.1106754401409.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> "Pataphysica announces an upcoming third issue on pataphysical machines. We will print selected critical and artistic works. We invite the pataphysical writing of scholars in the following fields: alchemy, Alfred Jarry, Contraptionalism, cybernetics, dada, Fernando Pessoa, Flann O'Brien, Gilles Deleuze, Jean Tinguely, machine-produced art, Marcel Duchamp, Oulipo, puppetry, Stanislaw Ignacy Witkiewicz, and such. Contemporary artists and poets may submit textual machines, diagrams, and descriptions of works in progress. Articles and works must directly relate to pataphysics for inclusion. Deadline for submission: June 20, 2005. Send all proposals to Dr. Cal Clements at calclements at yahoo.com. For information on past issues, see http://calclements.com/pataphysica.html pataphysics is the only science. find out what you will always be missing.see: http://calclements.com/pataphysica.html" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 26 10:47:08 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:47:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <014d01c503b5$99be5a00$db8f9a51@Robin> References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com> <11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <014d01c503b5$99be5a00$db8f9a51@Robin> Message-ID: <10779414.1106754428848.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 09:50AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> William Butler Yeats, W. H. Auden, and Robert Frost, to name the most >recent examples from poetry alone. > >I think all three of your examples here are somewhat dubious, Mike. > >Auden *began* as a radically innovative poet, and suffered a sea change, >both literal and metaphorical, when he went to America in 1939, but it tends >to be his earlier poetry that's rated most highly today. > >Yeats, again at a certain point and with the poems which are now considered >his best -- "Easter1916", say -- was breaking new ground. > >With Frost, the case is different. But construct a metaphorical >scale-of-reputation, and put Frost in one pan, Eliot, Pound, Stevens or >William Carlos Williams in the other ... > >Robin Hamilton > > Robin, you're right, but I think Bob G would say anyone using meter at all in those days would be using "received forms." How about it Bob? I did read your (Bob's) reply that new users of meter might be reacting against a dominant free verse and therefore not working in today's received forms. Mike S. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jan 26 10:47:40 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:47:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reputedly In-Reply-To: <8e.1f8886ed.2f291432@aol.com> Message-ID: And knowing what to do with it is considerably easier when one has countless examples of what not to do with it. Hal History is strewn with people who got there first with this or that next-big-thing, while others following along, picked up the device/concept and really knew what to do with it. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Jan 26 11:00:55 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:00:55 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><014d01c503b5$99be5a00$db8f9a51@Robin> <003e01c503ba$eff21fb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <004b01c503c0$38a0beb0$db8f9a51@Robin> > Robin - every artist who contributes something of value is breaking new > ground - Frost included, with his extension of the metered dramatic > monologue into patterns of American speech. But these poets were still > writing in essentially received forms. I'd entirely agree with that, Tad, but I think there are distinctions between extending an existing form and (K, this is wuffly) breaking into a new area. Pope was innovative in the former way in his extension of Dryden. Wordsworth and Coleridge are innovative in a different way in their attempt to break with received poetic practice. Then there's Thomas Hardy, perhaps the closest English equivalent to Frost. But Hardy's reputation as a poet for a time simply vanished below the horizon, only to resurface partly via the activity of Philip Larkin, a contemporary writer creating an audience for an older poet. And now, rightly I think, many would put Hardy up there alongside any other early twentieth century poet. So the whole thing is exceptionally slippery. > Anyone who paints figuratively in oil on canvas is working in a received > form. Isn't figurative painting the New Radicalism (parallel to New Formalism)? It can be pretty radical in lots of ways. I'm thinking especially of Paula Rego. > Actually, Bob's question is meaningless, which I realize is a first. > You can cut off, or extend, your definition of received forms to fit any > argument. I don't think it's meaningless (after all, it's kicked up a discussion) but I do think it's slippery, and evokes overlapping issues. For one -- has this come up yet? -- there are periods (Dryden through Pope for one) where continuity dominated, other (the first two generations of the Romantics) where innovation seems to be the name of the game. As for now --once you say "now", you have to say "now where?". I find myself more baffled and more out of sympathy with some innovatory British poetry than I do with American work. But on the other hand, I prefer Prynne to the LanPos ... Argh, I'm wandering ... But I've been meaning to mention a book that I'm in the process of reading (and I'd be interested if anyone on the list has come on it: _the Written Poem: Semiotic Conventions from Old to Modern English_ by Rosemary Huisman (1998) Rosemary Huisman is an Australian poet/academic, and her book ranges from Beowulf to contemporary cybertexts, taking in every point between. (I'm still on Old English poetry in MS -- be a while before I even reach Guttenberg, let alone meet a computer. But from what I have read, it's an absolutely marvellous work.) Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 11:04:58 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:04:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1106752435.41f7b3b32edb6@webmail.ukonline.net> Message-ID: <01b301c503c0$c8fdfd60$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Quoting Bob Grumman : > > >> Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history of >> the >> arts have artists working in received forms, using received techniques, >> at >> the same time a second group of the same kind of artists has been working >> in >> >> new forms, using new techniques, become known later as the "best and most >> serious" of artists working in that period? >> >> --Bob G. > > > No, that's not malicious, it's a question that one has to consider, > because > there obviously are not many precedents. It may be that using words > like "important", "significant" or (as I did) "serious" actually pre-codes > a > certain bias towards the kind of art that breaks new ground. Such art is > bound > to dominate histories of art. A response to your question would probably > have > to begin by denying its terms. For example, one could say that it is not > the > PRIMARY function of art to break new ground (that brings it suspiciously > close > to science, a model that tends to dominate our thoughts), but to do > something > that's really far more important, perhaps in poetry's case to "cheer the > heart > of man" (as per Keats), to promote the Kingdom of Heaven, to commemorate > human > greatness, to mourn beauty's passing, to be an unacknowledged legislator. > I'm > not arguing any of that myself, just trying to think of some possible > lines of > defence. > > But anyway, I believe there are cases where a great poet was in some > respects > technologically quite conservative. George Crabbe beggars belief by > writing at > the same time as our Romantic pantheon, but in an idiom fifty years out of > date. That hasn't prevented him being much admired by later readers, and > indeed recognized for his own uniqueness and his own innovations, > different as > they are from Shelley or Wordsworth. > > Then there are times (and the mention of those Romantics just made me > think of > this) when what we now rightly think of as "the cutting edge" of poetry > was > being fuelled partly by traditionalism and revivalism, in this case wild > enthusiasm for ballads and the medieval and Gothick, all things that those > oh- > so-modern Augustans thought they'd consigned to the dustbin of history. It > didn't turn out that way. But of course the new poetry didn't turn out to > be a > pale copy of its sources. If that's all it had been, if the Romantics had > really been scholarly pasticheurs, then they'd be totally forgotten. > Instead, > we'll read Christabel and La Belle Dame for ever. > > Finally, I think of Shakespeare - in every respect the author who of all > his > contemporaries most changed the world. Yet it perhaps didn't look like > that at > the time. The modish, radical, disaffected writers were Donne, Marston, > Chapman; intellectual, viciously satiric, deliberately obscure, cliquish. > Good > writers they are, too. But they would have hardly spared a thought for the > mere player who south of the river was knocking out a string of plays for > his > rather conservative, patriotic audience of not-very-educated people drawn > from > across the class spectrum.... > > So I don't know, really. I think a modern poem should try and engage with > modern experience. But no artist should let themselves be dictated to > about > what exactly that should mean in their case - in the end they've got to do > their best with their own vision. Interesting thoughts. Sure, there are always good traditionalists. I love the paintings of Andrew Wyeth, for instance. But I was focusing on groups. As for the value of innovation, another question, I do think that techniques and forms HAVE to reach a point of diminishing returns. Innovation in the arts is a necessity. Maybe even some kind of rotation of crops, which would allow for old forms and techniques to return, seeming fresh because newer forms and techniques have lost their zip, and change is needed. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 26 11:04:52 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:04:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups Message-ID: <141.3e257970.2f2919a4@aol.com> In a message dated 1/26/2005 8:24:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: And Wendy Cope's Wasteland Limericks are worth the whole of Jorie Graham. Mike, or the other Miek, can you post some of these? I've always felt that writing limericks was a one-way ticket to OgdenNashdom, and worth serious literary interest. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 26 11:09:28 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:09:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups Message-ID: <191.378b0576.2f291ab8@cs.com> Cope: http://www.erzsebel.com/clock/clockarchives/002860.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 11:14:30 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:14:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reputedly References: <20050126152323.52596.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01ca01c503c2$1e6a5130$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > --- David Graham wrote: >> > Thank you, David. Well said. Well, safely said, at any rate. Whose "aesthetic denies greatness to a poet simply because he did not innovate in form?" Or technique--especially technique, because that's what I rate the most important part of poetry. My own stand is simple: other things being equal, an artist who makes significant use of the new, is of more importance than one who does not. In actual practice, many poets who make no significant use of the new more than make up for it in other ways, and poets using the new generally are limited in other ways simply because no one is likely to have it all. As I've said many many times, I count Frost a great poet; I think Wilbur may be, too. --Bob G. From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 26 11:18:28 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:18:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <141.3e257970.2f2919a4@aol.com> References: <141.3e257970.2f2919a4@aol.com> Message-ID: <9437620.1106756308926.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 11:06AM, wrote: > >In a message dated 1/26/2005 8:24:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: >>And Wendy Cope's Wasteland Limericks are worth the whole of Jorie Graham. >Mike, or the other Miek, can you post some of these? I've always >felt that writing limericks was a one-way ticket to OgdenNashdom, >and worth serious literary interest. > Finnegan They're all here: http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/859.html My favorite of her parodies is probably "Budgie Finds His Voice," a hilarious sendup of Ted Hughes's Crow. But it might be William Wordsworth's version of baa-baa black sheep. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 11:19:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:19:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: Message-ID: <01d501c503c2$cbbbfa00$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > { Stravinsky and Bartok were working with new forms and techniques, not > with > { received forms and techniques (comparatively speaking). So Shoenberg > (sp?) > { went further than they, so what? All three were in the new group. > Who was > { writing like Brahms then that we admire the way we admire those three > today? > { > { --Bob G. > > Schoenberg was writing like Brahms himself some of the time. Then there > were Richard Strauss, Mahler, and Sibelius to name a few others (though > the last was more in a Tchaikovsky mode than a Brahms one). > > Hal Right, but I'm talking about what they were most known for. Sibelius would be a traditionalist, I suppose. Strauss certainly not although not as "wild" as Stravinsky. Mahler was behind Strauss in newishness, I guess, but ahead of Brahms. It's certainly not clear-cut, but it would seem to me that one group was taking music one way, another writing traditional stuff, and it is mostly members of the first group that we remember today, and whose music we listen to. --Bob From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 26 11:23:47 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:23:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups Message-ID: <1a6.302602cd.2f291e13@aol.com> In a message dated 1/26/2005 10:11:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: not so much speaking of innovators as simply of artists working with new forms and techniques--comparatively. Seems a good time to bring up the obvious: Innovation comes in form, function, technique, content, perspective, socio-political context, etc. And in various combinations of the possible elements. Then there is well-known concept of a tipping point. Generations of aritsts are pushing the art, often without knowing it, little by little toward some kind of vague and not well understood boundary, and then one person steps over it, cognizant or not of demarcation, and thus the boundary is breached, and he/she is recognized as having done something 'new', and the outcries begin both denouncing the audacity of and lauding the courage of the act of breaking through. But is the credit/blame all due this one innovative soul? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jan 26 11:31:44 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:31:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <1a6.302602cd.2f291e13@aol.com> Message-ID: <007101c503c4$86323d80$e2a33852@yourpk9x5fuc06> As we all know this is a rhetoric question, From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In a message dated 1/26/2005 10:11:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: not so much speaking of innovators as simply of artists working with new forms and techniques--comparatively. Seems a good time to bring up the obvious: Innovation comes in form, function, technique, content, perspective, socio-political context, etc. And in various combinations of the possible elements. Then there is well-known concept of a tipping point. Generations of aritsts are pushing the art, often without knowing it, little by little toward some kind of vague and not well understood boundary, and then one person steps over it, cognizant or not of demarcation, and thus the boundary is breached, and he/she is recognized as having done something 'new', and the outcries begin both denouncing the audacity of and lauding the courage of the act of breaking through. But is the credit/blame all due this one innovative soul? Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 11:41:04 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:41:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reputedly References: <8e.1f8886ed.2f291432@aol.com> Message-ID: <01f001c503c5$d3e5f1b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> You're dangerously close to agreeing with me, James. Yes, I think one does get some heavy credits and rightful kudos for being first to explore the 'terra incognito' of any art. The first caution of course is that some of this trailblazing leads to aesthetic dead-ends. You know, I honestly can't think of a dead-end any trailblazing in poetry I know of led to. Imagism, for instance, fairly quickly died as a movement, but almost all poets now are partly imagists. Or an entire movement is born only to in time be distilled down to its technique...surrealism, being a ready example. All movements eventually fade in some way. Surrealism? Seems to me it faded significantly into just about all the best poetry of our time. Also, because art doesn't function as differently as we'd like to believe from other fields, like science, commerce, politics, etc., I think the odds are stacked against 'the innovator' actually producing the best work with or being most the successful at utilizing his own innovation. History is strewn with people who got there first with this or that next-big-thing, while others following along, picked up the device/concept and really knew what to do with it. Finnegan Yes. That's why I speak of using the new rather than of being innovative. The new, in my usage, isn't new only for its creator. On a personal note, I often envy the poets who will follow me into mathematical poetry, because they will start with it as second-nature, whereas I had to work up to it, and it's still not second-nature for me, or as second-nature as I would like it to be. I can see very well how they will make mathematical poems much better than mine. But that I was first with a technique or two is enough for me. (Yes, Marcus, mathematical poetry will one day be an accepted form of the art.) And I think a couple of my poems will hold up. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 26 11:41:52 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:41:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups Message-ID: <145.3e0cbf7a.2f292250@aol.com> In a message dated 1/26/2005 11:18:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: a one-way ticket to OgdenNashdom, >and worth serious literary interest. > Finnegan They're all here: http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/859.html Mike, I meant to say of 'worth NO serious literary interest'... and I see I'm correct. Jorie Graham can rest easy for now. I thought you were suggesting that Wendy Cope was actually doing something 'more' with the limerick, moe than the usual funny bits of hit & run. Finnegan -- Waste Land Limericks I In April one seldom feels cheerful; Dry stones, sun and dust make me fearful; Clairvoyantes distress me, Commuters depress me-- Met Stetson and gave him an earful. II She sat on a mighty fine chair, Sparks flew as she tidied her hair; She asks many questions, I make few suggestions-- Bad as Albert and Lil--what a pair! III The Thames runs, bones rattle, rats creep; Tiresias fancies a peep-- A typist is laid, A record is played-- Wei la la. After this it gets deep. IV A Phoenician named Phlebas forgot About birds and his business--the lot, Which is no surprise, Since he'd met his demise And been left in the ocean to rot. V No water. Dry rocks and dry throats, Then thunder, a shower of quotes >From the Sanskrit and Dante. Da. Damyata. Shantih. I hope you'll make sense of the notes. -- Wendy Cope -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 26 11:58:39 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:58:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <145.3e0cbf7a.2f292250@aol.com> References: <145.3e0cbf7a.2f292250@aol.com> Message-ID: <16655843.1106758719667.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> They certainly won't, by themselves, win Cope everlasting fame, but I think they're damned good parody, while I think Graham is just damned bad: incomprehensible, with no surface rewards to make the confusion palatable. On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 11:46AM, wrote: > ><>_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jan 26 11:58:53 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:58:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Social Security Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE916@URANIUM.ripon.college> Social Security No one is safe. The streets are unsafe. Even in the safety zones, it's not safe. Even safe sex is not safe. Even things you lock in a safe are not safe. Never deposit anything in a safe-deposit box, because it won't be safe there. Nobody is safe at home during baseball games anymore. At night I go around in the dark locking everything, returning a few minutes later to make sure I locked everything. It's not safe here. It's not safe and they know it. People get hurt using safety pins. It was not always this way. Long ago, everyone felt safe. Aristotle never felt danger. Herodotus felt danger only when Xerxes was around. Young women were afraid of wing?d dragons, but felt relaxed otherwise. Timotheus, however, was terrified of storms until he played one on the flute. After that, everyone was more afraid of him than of the violent west wind, which was fine with Timotheus. Euclid, full of music himself, believed only that there was safety in numbers. Terence Winch The Paris Review Volume 42, Number 156 Fall 2000 ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 12:05:21 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:05:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <191.378b0576.2f291ab8@cs.com> Message-ID: <00c901c503c9$3a4f42f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I love Wendy Cope's Wasteland. Is there a book of these? Another poet doing inventive, if not necessarily innovative work in rhyme and meter is...er...me. http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/situations.html Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups Cope: http://www.erzsebel.com/clock/clockarchives/002860.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Jan 26 05:11:10 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 04:11:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, yes, the revolution! Light! No troublesome voting, no representative government, no civil rights, no freedom speecd, dissenters put where they belong, in prison, or shot in the head. Oh for a whiff of that future paradise! Ah, the poetry of it all! On 1/26/05 7:02 AM, "Halvard Johnson" wrote: > > > Lights > > That top-secret flight at night. > We might have been shot down. The night calm and clear. > The sky teeming, swarming with stars. The Milky Way > so bright behind the thick pane of the window, > a sparkling white mass in the black night > with its millions of evolutionary and revolutionary changes. > We were going over the water to avoid Somoza's air force, > but close to the coast. > The small plane flying low, and flying slowly. > First the lights of Rivas, taken and retaken by Sandinists, > now almost in Sandinist hands. > Then other lights: Granada, in the hands of the Guard > (it would be attacked that night). > Masaya, completely liberated. So many fell there. > Farther out a bright glow: Managua. Site of so many battles. > (The Bunker.) Still the stronghold of the Guard. > Diriamba, liberated. Jinotepe, fighting it out. So much heroism > glitters in those lights. Montelimar--the pilot shows us--: > the tyrant's estate near the sea. Puerto Somoza, next to it. > The Milky Way above, and the lights of Nicaragua's revolution. > Out there, in the north, I think I see Sandino's campfire. > ("That light is Sandino.") > The stars above us, and the smallness of this land > but also its importance, these > tiny lights of men. I think: everything is light. > The planet comes from the sun. It is light turned solid. > This plane's electicity is light. Its metal is light. The warmth > of life come from the sun. > "Let there be light." > There is also darkness. > There are strange reflections--I don't know where they come > from--on the clear surface of the windows. > A red glow: the tail lights of the plane. > And reflections on the calm sea: they must be stars. > I look at the light from my cigarette--it also comes from the sun, > from a star. > And the outline of a great ship. The U.S. aircraft carrier > sent to patrol the Pacific coast? > A big light on our right startles us. A jet attacking? > No. The moon coming out, a half-moon, so peaceful, lit by the sun. > The danger of flying on such a clear night. > And suddenly the radio. Jumbled words filling the small plane. > The Guard? The pilot says: "It's our side." > They're on our wavelengths. > Now we're close to Le?n, the territory liberated. > A burning reddish-orange light, like the red-hot tip of a cigar: > Corinto: > the powerful lights of the docks flickering on the sea. > And now at last the beach at Poneloya, and the plane coming in > to land, > the string of foam along the coast gleaming in the moonlight. > The plane coming down. A smell of insecticide. > And Sergio tells me: "The smell of Nicaragua!" > It's the most dangerous moment, enemy aircraft > may be waiting for us over this airport. > And the airports lights at last. > We've landed. From out of the dark come olive-green-clad comrades > to greet us with hugs. > We feel their warm bodies, that also come from the sun, > that also are light. > This revolution is fighting the darkness. > It was daybreak on July 18th. And the beginning > of all that was about to come. > > 1979 > > --Ernesto Cardenal, trans. Jonathan Cohen > fr. *Zero Hour and Other Documentary Poems* > [New York: New Directions, 1980] > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 12:25:27 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:25:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" References: Message-ID: <012e01c503cc$09542b90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Paul - you can't mean to be suggesting that no poetry inspired by a political ideology with which you disagree can be any good? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:11 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" Ah, yes, the revolution! Light! No troublesome voting, no representative government, no civil rights, no freedom speecd, dissenters put where they belong, in prison, or shot in the head. Oh for a whiff of that future paradise! Ah, the poetry of it all! On 1/26/05 7:02 AM, "Halvard Johnson" wrote: > > > Lights > > That top-secret flight at night. > We might have been shot down. The night calm and clear. > The sky teeming, swarming with stars. The Milky Way > so bright behind the thick pane of the window, > a sparkling white mass in the black night > with its millions of evolutionary and revolutionary changes. > We were going over the water to avoid Somoza's air force, > but close to the coast. > The small plane flying low, and flying slowly. > First the lights of Rivas, taken and retaken by Sandinists, > now almost in Sandinist hands. > Then other lights: Granada, in the hands of the Guard > (it would be attacked that > night). > Masaya, completely liberated. So many fell there. > Farther out a bright glow: Managua. Site of so many battles. > (The Bunker.) Still the stronghold of the Guard. > Diriamba, liberated. Jinotepe, fighting it out. So much heroism > glitters in those lights. Montelimar--the pilot shows us--: > the tyrant's estate near the sea. Puerto Somoza, next to it. > The Milky Way above, and the lights of Nicaragua's revolution. > Out there, in the north, I think I see Sandino's campfire. > ("That light is Sandino.") > The stars above us, and the smallness of this land > but also its importance, these > tiny lights of men. I think: everything is light. > The planet comes from the sun. It is light turned solid. > This plane's electicity is light. Its metal is light. The warmth > of life come from the sun. > "Let there be light." > There is also darkness. > There are strange reflections--I don't know where they come > from--on the clear surface of the windows. > A red glow: the tail lights of the plane. > And reflections on the calm sea: they must be stars. > I look at the light from my cigarette--it also comes from the sun, > from a star. > And the outline of a great ship. The U.S. aircraft carrier > sent to patrol the Pacific coast? > A big light on our right startles us. A jet attacking? > No. The moon coming out, a half-moon, so peaceful, lit by the sun. > The danger of flying on such a clear night. > And suddenly the radio. Jumbled words filling the small plane. > The Guard? The pilot says: "It's our side." > They're on our wavelengths. > Now we're close to Le?n, the territory liberated. > A burning reddish-orange light, like the red-hot tip of a cigar: > Corinto: > the powerful lights of the docks flickering on the sea. > And now at last the beach at Poneloya, and the plane coming in > to land, > the string of foam along the coast gleaming in the moonlight. > The plane coming down. A smell of insecticide. > And Sergio tells me: "The smell of Nicaragua!" > It's the most dangerous moment, enemy aircraft > may be waiting for us over this airport. > And the airports lights at last. > We've landed. From out of the dark come olive-green-clad comrades > to greet us with hugs. > We feel their warm bodies, that also come from the sun, > that also are light. > This revolution is fighting the darkness. > It was daybreak on July 18th. And the beginning > of all that was about to come. > > 1979 > > --Ernesto Cardenal, trans. Jonathan Cohen > fr. *Zero Hour and Other Documentary Poems* > [New York: New Directions, 1980] > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 12:41:08 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:41:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><014d01c503b5$99be5a00$db8f9a51@Robin> <10779414.1106754428848.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <022e01c503ce$380cb3b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 09:50AM, Robin Hamilton > wrote: > >>> William Butler Yeats, W. H. Auden, and Robert Frost, to name the most >>recent examples from poetry alone. >> >>I think all three of your examples here are somewhat dubious, Mike. >> >>Auden *began* as a radically innovative poet, and suffered a sea change, >>both literal and metaphorical, when he went to America in 1939, but it >>tends >>to be his earlier poetry that's rated most highly today. >> >>Yeats, again at a certain point and with the poems which are now >>considered >>his best -- "Easter1916", say -- was breaking new ground. >>With Frost, the case is different. But construct a metaphorical >>scale-of-reputation, and put Frost in one pan, Eliot, Pound, Stevens or >>William Carlos Williams in the other ... >> >> > > Robin, you're right, but I think Bob G would say anyone using meter at all > in those days would be using "received forms." How about it Bob? Well, I started the discussion with an intentional black&white reduction. There are grades, of course. Yeats was a somewhat advanced traditionalist. But was symbolism new when he was in the beginning of his prime and using it? Auden was a promising non-traditionalist who gave it up. Frost was pretty much a die-hard tradtionalist. I would say all three were using received forms, and techniques. I think of Waste Land Eliot, and Pound, and Williams, as their generation's leaders in poetry. Stevens strikes me as pretty traditional but my favorite among those named. But he was primarily a writer of free verse, I believe. Cummings came in the next generation. > > I did read your (Bob's) reply that new users of meter might be reacting > against a dominant free verse and therefore not working in today's > received forms. > > Mike S. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 12:48:07 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:48:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><014d01c503b5$99be5a00$db8f9a51@Robin><003e01c503ba$eff21fb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <004b01c503c0$38a0beb0$db8f9a51@Robin> Message-ID: <023a01c503cf$3206b0a0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Actually, Bob's question is meaningless, which I realize is a first. >> You can cut off, or extend, your definition of received forms to fit any >> argument. No, Mole, you can't, unless you're a sophist. A sophist WILL try to muddy the waters by refusing to accept simple definitions, but we all know what received forms AND techniques, which everyone keeps dropping, are. Sonnet form: received form. Waste Land stanzas: not received form when done. Rhyme: received technique; Waste Land jump-cut: not received technique when first done. --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 13:02:30 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:02:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><014d01c503b5$99be5a00$db8f9a51@Robin><003e01c503ba$eff21fb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><004b01c503c0$38a0beb0$db8f9a51@Robin> <023a01c503cf$3206b0a0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <016001c503d1$36aa8440$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> And lineation is not a received technique why? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups >>> Actually, Bob's question is meaningless, which I realize is a first. >>> You can cut off, or extend, your definition of received forms to fit any >>> argument. > > No, Mole, you can't, unless you're a sophist. A sophist WILL try to muddy > the waters by refusing to accept simple definitions, but we all know what > received forms AND techniques, which everyone keeps dropping, are. Sonnet > form: received form. Waste Land stanzas: not received form when done. > Rhyme: received technique; Waste Land jump-cut: not received technique > when first done. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 14:07:31 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:07:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <92.1f0d5519.2f28e343@cs.com><11207400.1106745854471.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><5387974.1106748724998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><014d01c503b5$99be5a00$db8f9a51@Robin><003e01c503ba$eff21fb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><004b01c503c0$38a0beb0$db8f9a51@Robin><023a01c503cf$3206b0a0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <016001c503d1$36aa8440$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <02c401c503da$49e140e0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > And lineation is not a received technique why? I never thought of it as not a received technique, but now that you mention it, I realize that free verse lineation WAS a new technique. The meter no longer told the poet where to break his lines off. But the new technique most modernist poets were working with was rhythmic freedom. And the shape of their poems. To say everyone works with received forms and techniques is what is meaningless. Sure, no form or technique is entirely different from what came before, but some are assuredly sufficiently different from what came before to no longer be consider "received." --Bob G. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Jan 26 07:54:57 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 06:54:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In-Reply-To: <012e01c503cc$09542b90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: On 1/26/05 11:25 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > Paul - you can't mean to be suggesting that no poetry inspired by a > political ideology with which you disagree can be any good? Is there good Nazi poetry? Poetry that falsifies reality by not conceding that romanticized "revolution" will cure the human ills it purports to is seriously flawed in my opinion. I also get antsy when Virgil sings the praises of Augustus, if that's any help. You don't cure Fascism with Communism. It's like curing cancer with AIDS. Good poetry can be written on faulty political underpinnings, but praises to mass murderers like Stalin and Mao (or mini-mes Castro and Che) make me queasy, likewise glorified "revolutions" that result in even greater institutionalized oppression. Yeats said it best: The Great Day Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot! A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot. Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again. The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 15:06:43 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:06:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" References: Message-ID: <001e01c503e2$912a7c20$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> There's good poetry by those who were sympathetic to fascism -- including, arguably, Yeats. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" > On 1/26/05 11:25 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > >> Paul - you can't mean to be suggesting that no poetry inspired by a >> political ideology with which you disagree can be any good? > > > Is there good Nazi poetry? > > Poetry that falsifies reality by not conceding that romanticized > "revolution" will cure the human ills it purports to is seriously flawed > in > my opinion. I also get antsy when Virgil sings the praises of Augustus, > if > that's any help. > > You don't cure Fascism with Communism. It's like curing cancer with AIDS. > > Good poetry can be written on faulty political underpinnings, but praises > to > mass murderers like Stalin and Mao (or mini-mes Castro and Che) make me > queasy, likewise glorified "revolutions" that result in even greater > institutionalized oppression. > > Yeats said it best: > > The Great Day > > > Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot! > A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot. > Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again. > The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 15:10:39 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:10:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" References: Message-ID: <002101c503e3$1d51b240$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I'd rate Shelley pretty high, and he certainly wrote poetry that refused to concede that romanticized "revolution" will not cure the human ills it purports to. But then, I don't have problems with seriously flawed poetry, any more than I have problems with seriously flawed humanity. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" > On 1/26/05 11:25 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > >> Paul - you can't mean to be suggesting that no poetry inspired by a >> political ideology with which you disagree can be any good? > > > Is there good Nazi poetry? > > Poetry that falsifies reality by not conceding that romanticized > "revolution" will cure the human ills it purports to is seriously flawed > in > my opinion. I also get antsy when Virgil sings the praises of Augustus, > if > that's any help. > > You don't cure Fascism with Communism. It's like curing cancer with AIDS. > > Good poetry can be written on faulty political underpinnings, but praises > to > mass murderers like Stalin and Mao (or mini-mes Castro and Che) make me > queasy, likewise glorified "revolutions" that result in even greater > institutionalized oppression. > > Yeats said it best: > > The Great Day > > > Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot! > A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot. > Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again. > The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Jan 26 08:20:46 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:20:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In-Reply-To: <001e01c503e2$912a7c20$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: To the degree to which fascism might infect his poetry it would vitiate it, it seems to me. Luckily we don't see anything like a paen to fascism in his work similar to the paen to the revolution in the just-posted poem, though I do remember my Stanford mentor Donald Davie not liking the political implications of some of Yeats' work--"Blood and the Moon," I think it was, bothered him a bit, though as I take a quick look back at it I can't quite tell if that's the right poem or why it particularly bothered him. I myself am a bit put off when Yeats starts singing the praises of aristocracy--and I love Yeats. Paul On 1/26/05 2:06 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > There's good poetry by those who were sympathetic to fascism -- including, > arguably, Yeats. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lake" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:54 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" > > >> On 1/26/05 11:25 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: >> >>> Paul - you can't mean to be suggesting that no poetry inspired by a >>> political ideology with which you disagree can be any good? >> >> >> Is there good Nazi poetry? >> >> Poetry that falsifies reality by not conceding that romanticized >> "revolution" will cure the human ills it purports to is seriously flawed >> in >> my opinion. I also get antsy when Virgil sings the praises of Augustus, >> if >> that's any help. >> >> You don't cure Fascism with Communism. It's like curing cancer with AIDS. >> >> Good poetry can be written on faulty political underpinnings, but praises >> to >> mass murderers like Stalin and Mao (or mini-mes Castro and Che) make me >> queasy, likewise glorified "revolutions" that result in even greater >> institutionalized oppression. >> >> Yeats said it best: >> >> The Great Day >> >> >> Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot! >> A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot. >> Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again. >> The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on. >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Jan 26 08:22:35 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:22:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In-Reply-To: <002101c503e3$1d51b240$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Shelley was a child of the Enlightenment, and the revolution he advocated was for democratic, representative government--then a radical new notion--not Communist tyranny. Paul On 1/26/05 2:10 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > I'd rate Shelley pretty high, and he certainly wrote poetry that refused to > concede that romanticized > "revolution" will not cure the human ills it purports to. But then, I don't > have problems with seriously flawed poetry, any more than I have problems > with seriously flawed humanity. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lake" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:54 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" > > >> On 1/26/05 11:25 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: >> >>> Paul - you can't mean to be suggesting that no poetry inspired by a >>> political ideology with which you disagree can be any good? >> >> >> Is there good Nazi poetry? >> >> Poetry that falsifies reality by not conceding that romanticized >> "revolution" will cure the human ills it purports to is seriously flawed >> in >> my opinion. I also get antsy when Virgil sings the praises of Augustus, >> if >> that's any help. >> >> You don't cure Fascism with Communism. It's like curing cancer with AIDS. >> >> Good poetry can be written on faulty political underpinnings, but praises >> to >> mass murderers like Stalin and Mao (or mini-mes Castro and Che) make me >> queasy, likewise glorified "revolutions" that result in even greater >> institutionalized oppression. >> >> Yeats said it best: >> >> The Great Day >> >> >> Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot! >> A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot. >> Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again. >> The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on. >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 16:47:01 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:47:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Media/Audio Query Message-ID: <20050126214701.1562.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> First off, thanks for all the responses to my query about my poetry class. I've recieved some great ideas. I'll be going back to the old drawing board this weekend for some course redesigning, armed with your comments. Now, Mike Snider and any other techies who might know: I want to burn this Levine interview to a CD and I just can't figure out how to do it. I've tried and tried, and I am no tech fool. Any suggestions? The link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4286683 Thanks! Jeff ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From MillB at aol.com Wed Jan 26 16:50:00 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:50:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tampa Review Message-ID: <1c7.22c6a74d.2f296a88@aol.com> Hi list members! For those interested, I have a poem in the latest Tampa Review, No. 28, "This is What People Do." Cheers, Millicent Borges Accardi (aka Mill) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 16:59:13 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:59:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050126215913.95223.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> Paul, You sound like an expert of Communist tyranny, and I would be flattered and honored if you spend a few of your precious minutes (and words) to enlighten me a bit about this phenomenon. I would be more than glad to hear also something about your perception about the recent speech by the Freedom-Expanding-Man, who just got his crown (and who, btw I admire as one of the greatest neo-romantic poets of our cruel times...) Here is the greatest piece I have ever read (and how is it even possible not to fell in love with a person who is capable of such art?): Enjoy! Roses are red Violets are blue Oh my, lump in the bed How I've missed you. Roses are redder Bluer am I Seeing you kissed by that charming French guy. The dogs and the cat, they missed you too Barney's still mad you dropped him, he ate your shoe The distance, my dear, has been such a barrier Next time you want an adventure, just land on a carrier. Oct. 2003 And lastly, I wonder what exactly bothers you in the "Lights"? Best, Rosie Paul Lake wrote: Shelley was a child of the Enlightenment, and the revolution he advocated was for democratic, representative government--then a radical new notion--not Communist tyranny. Paul On 1/26/05 2:10 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > I'd rate Shelley pretty high, and he certainly wrote poetry that refused to > concede that romanticized > "revolution" will not cure the human ills it purports to. But then, I don't > have problems with seriously flawed poetry, any more than I have problems > with seriously flawed humanity. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lake" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:54 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" > > >> On 1/26/05 11:25 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: >> >>> Paul - you can't mean to be suggesting that no poetry inspired by a >>> political ideology with which you disagree can be any good? >> >> >> Is there good Nazi poetry? >> >> Poetry that falsifies reality by not conceding that romanticized >> "revolution" will cure the human ills it purports to is seriously flawed >> in >> my opinion. I also get antsy when Virgil sings the praises of Augustus, >> if >> that's any help. >> >> You don't cure Fascism with Communism. It's like curing cancer with AIDS. >> >> Good poetry can be written on faulty political underpinnings, but praises >> to >> mass murderers like Stalin and Mao (or mini-mes Castro and Che) make me >> queasy, likewise glorified "revolutions" that result in even greater >> institutionalized oppression. >> >> Yeats said it best: >> >> The Great Day >> >> >> Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot! >> A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot. >> Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again. >> The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on. >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 26 17:02:17 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:02:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" Message-ID: <102.59449f9a.2f296d69@aol.com> In a message dated 1/26/2005 8:44:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: What is a documentary poem? Why cast a documentary in poetic form? Can being cast in poetic form add something to the documentary experience? Can giving documentary witness enrich a poem? A poem of minimal mediation? I can't answer the questions, but I do the like that term, "documentary poem." I think it could be a useful category... is it your term, Tad, or has this a category of poems that has been spoken of by others? A documentary poem would seem to depend almost solely on the poetic nature of the content itself, or a combination of that content's power and how it is seen. What things are selected to be foregrounded, what gets a close-up shot and what is cut entirely... the poem depending in part on the quality of the documentarist's attention, but makes it or fails primarily on the content's essential attraction. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 26 17:15:12 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:15:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Media/Audio Query Message-ID: <194.37230048.2f297070@aol.com> In a message dated 1/26/2005 4:48:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: Any suggestions? The link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4286683 Because I'm starting to collect sound files, I bought a little piece of software called Tape Recorder. But there are others out there, too, & maybe some are free downloads. I didn't spend a lot time investigating it, but this one is pretty cheap and does the job, and it's simple to use. http://www.highcriteria.com/productfr_tr.htm Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 26 17:19:35 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:19:35 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Media/Audio Query Message-ID: <1a9.302cb551.2f297177@aol.com> In a message dated 1/26/2005 5:15:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: Because I'm starting to collect sound files, I bought a little piece of software called Tape Recorder. But there are others out there, too, & maybe some are free downloads. I didn't spend a lot time investigating it, but this one is pretty cheap and does the job, and it's simple to use. http://www.highcriteria.com/productfr_tr.htm I'm really struggling with my typ(o)ing today. That's 'Total Recorder', but the link is correct. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jan 26 17:26:45 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:26:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Media/Audio Query References: <1a9.302cb551.2f297177@aol.com> Message-ID: <008b01c503f6$1e94e600$89e83652@yourpk9x5fuc06> You made me laugh, it was a good one, you want to record, buy a tape recorder. Sorry, heading down to the end of the day, Anny Ballardini ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:19 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Media/Audio Query In a message dated 1/26/2005 5:15:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: Because I'm starting to collect sound files, I bought a little piece of software called Tape Recorder. But there are others out there, too, & maybe some are free downloads. I didn't spend a lot time investigating it, but this one is pretty cheap and does the job, and it's simple to use. http://www.highcriteria.com/productfr_tr.htm I'm really struggling with my typ(o)ing today. That's 'Total Recorder', but the link is correct. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 17:27:13 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:27:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" References: <102.59449f9a.2f296d69@aol.com> Message-ID: <002901c503f6$31a43390$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Jim - it was attached to the end of the Cardenal poem that Hal posted, which is what got me to musing about it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In a message dated 1/26/2005 8:44:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: What is a documentary poem? Why cast a documentary in poetic form? Can being cast in poetic form add something to the documentary experience? Can giving documentary witness enrich a poem? A poem of minimal mediation? I can't answer the questions, but I do the like that term, "documentary poem." I think it could be a useful category... is it your term, Tad, or has this a category of poems that has been spoken of by others? A documentary poem would seem to depend almost solely on the poetic nature of the content itself, or a combination of that content's power and how it is seen. What things are selected to be foregrounded, what gets a close-up shot and what is cut entirely... the poem depending in part on the quality of the documentarist's attention, but makes it or fails primarily on the content's essential attraction. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jan 26 17:28:40 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:28:40 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Documentary poems Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE91B@URANIUM.ripon.college> A documentary poem would seem to depend almost solely on the poetic nature of the content itself, or a combination of that content's power and how it is seen. What things are selected to be foregrounded, what gets a close-up shot and what is cut entirely... the poem depending in part on the quality of the documentarist's attention, but makes it or fails primarily on the content's essential attraction. Finnegan ---------------- Charles Reznikoff's long poem *Testimony* might be a good example of a documentary poem. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of JforJames at aol.com > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:02 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" > > <> > In a message dated 1/26/2005 8:44:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > > What is a documentary poem? Why cast a documentary in poetic form? Can being > cast in poetic form add something to the documentary experience? Can giving > documentary witness enrich a poem? > > A poem of minimal mediation? > I can't answer the questions, but I do the like that term, > "documentary poem." I think it could be a useful category... > is it your term, Tad, or has this a category of poems > that has been spoken of by others? > > A documentary poem would seem to depend almost > solely on the poetic nature of the content itself, > or a combination of that content's power and how it is > seen. What things are selected to be foregrounded, > what gets a close-up shot and what is cut entirely... > the poem depending in part on the quality of the > documentarist's attention, but makes it or fails > primarily on the content's essential attraction. > Finnegan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 17:45:12 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:45:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Documentary poems In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE91B@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <20050126224512.12599.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> Here is one experiment: Check out this one. I'm almost sure that most of you won't have strong personal feelings about the events that are taking places here: http://www.slovo.bg/showwork.php3?AuID=283&WorkID=10654&Level=2 What do you think? For any Bulgarian, this has more than just a documentary value, but it might be called a propaganda as well... by those who are not emotionally involved. Let me know how you feel about it. R. "Graham, David" wrote: A documentary poem would seem to depend almost solely on the poetic nature of the content itself, or a combination of that content's power and how it is seen. What things are selected to be foregrounded, what gets a close-up shot and what is cut entirely... the poem depending in part on the quality of the documentarist's attention, but makes it or fails primarily on the content's essential attraction. Finnegan ---------------- Charles Reznikoff's long poem *Testimony* might be a good example of a documentary poem. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ ---------- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of JforJames at aol.com Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:02 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" <> In a message dated 1/26/2005 8:44:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: What is a documentary poem? Why cast a documentary in poetic form? Can being cast in poetic form add something to the documentary experience? Can giving documentary witness enrich a poem? A poem of minimal mediation? I can't answer the questions, but I do the like that term, "documentary poem." I think it could be a useful category... is it your term, Tad, or has this a category of poems that has been spoken of by others? A documentary poem would seem to depend almost solely on the poetic nature of the content itself, or a combination of that content's power and how it is seen. What things are selected to be foregrounded, what gets a close-up shot and what is cut entirely... the poem depending in part on the quality of the documentarist's attention, but makes it or fails primarily on the content's essential attraction. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Wed Jan 26 17:47:22 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:47:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Documentary poems Message-ID: <1de.3383c4e4.2f2977fa@aol.com> To me, a List Poem and a Documentary poem are close neighbors...What are the key elements that delineate between pure list and pure documentary. In film, I could pin point the difference; however, in poetic terms, the line is more blurry (for me). Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Jan 26 18:05:08 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:05:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Documentary poems References: <20050126224512.12599.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001901c503fb$7b8e5fd0$89e83652@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi Rosie, I don't think it is a question of feelings in my case with Bulgarian history or not. I inherited from maybe my grandpa a strong anti-war attitude and the vision that problems should and can be solved with intelligence. But then history is history and it is with the saddest empathy that I have to face it. In the poem you sent over the opening is touching, and within the tumultuous epic that urges in, I finally praise the following line: The living and death fight a battle together, Take care, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: Rosie Shkodrov To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Documentary poems Here is one experiment: Check out this one. I'm almost sure that most of you won't have strong personal feelings about the events that are taking places here: http://www.slovo.bg/showwork.php3?AuID=283&WorkID=10654&Level=2 What do you think? For any Bulgarian, this has more than just a documentary value, but it might be called a propaganda as well... by those who are not emotionally involved. Let me know how you feel about it. R. "Graham, David" wrote: A documentary poem would seem to depend almost solely on the poetic nature of the content itself, or a combination of that content's power and how it is seen. What things are selected to be foregrounded, what gets a close-up shot and what is cut entirely... the poem depending in part on the quality of the documentarist's attention, but makes it or fails primarily on the content's essential attraction. Finnegan ---------------- Charles Reznikoff's long poem *Testimony* might be a good example of a documentary poem. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ ---------- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of JforJames at aol.com Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:02 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" <> In a message dated 1/26/2005 8:44:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: What is a documentary poem? Why cast a documentary in poetic form? Can being cast in poetic form add something to the documentary experience? Can giving documentary witness enrich a poem? A poem of minimal mediation? I can't answer the questions, but I do the like that term, "documentary poem." I think it could be a useful category... is it your term, Tad, or has this a category of poems that has been spoken of by others? A documentary poem would seem to depend almost solely on the poetic nature of the content itself, or a combination of that content's power and how it is seen. What things are selected to be foregrounded, what gets a close-up shot and what is cut entirely... the poem depending in part on the quality of the documentarist's attention, but! makes it or fails primarily on the content's essential attraction. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 26 19:36:23 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:36:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Documentary poems References: <20050126224512.12599.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> <001901c503fb$7b8e5fd0$89e83652@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <03e801c50408$3c0e5970$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I couldn't read too much of this poem. I find it very poor. Inversions all over the place, hackneyed language, conventional technique, nothing arresting--for me. Sorry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 26 20:44:31 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:44:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Media/Audio Query In-Reply-To: <20050126214701.1562.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050126214701.1562.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > First off, thanks for all the responses to my query > about my poetry class. I've recieved some great > ideas. I'll be going back to the old drawing board > this weekend for some course redesigning, armed with > your comments. > > Now, Mike Snider and any other techies who might know: > I want to burn this Levine interview to a CD and I > just can't figure out how to do it. I've tried and > tried, and I am no tech fool. > > Any suggestions? > > The link: > > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4286683 > > Thanks! > > Jeff > What OS? From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jan 26 21:15:48 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:15:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <012101c503af$ef13f5b0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F80884.29592.1B5720@localhost> On 26 Jan 2005 at 9:04, Bob Grumman wrote: > Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history > of the arts have artists working in received forms, using received > techniques, at the same time a second group of the same kind of > artists has been working in new forms, using new techniques, become > known later as the "best and most serious" of artists working in that > period?< Whose definition of "new", Bob? Or "received"? But Pope, Dryden, and Byron leap to mind. Tennyson. Swinburne. Frost. Yeats. Marcus From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jan 26 21:25:49 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:25:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <013e01c503b7$af000600$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F80ADD.7554.2482FE@localhost> On 26 Jan 2005 at 9:59, Bob Grumman wrote: > To continue being malicious, I would ask when in the history of art > did a group confining its practice to what the generation BEFORE the > previous generation was doing produced more than a very few lasting > artists, when another group was working in new forms, and using new > techniques. Pope after Dryden. Jeez, Bob, why not familiarize yourself with this history before setting out to toss the baby out with the bathtub? You asked before why I attribute bad motives to you, and don't believe your claims to good ones -- and it is this conscious, deliberate ignorance, and your nonetheless bumptious insistence that you're right. "Often wrong but never in doubt" about describes your approach to this whole poetry thing, doesn't it? Marcus From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 26 22:28:55 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:28:55 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Documentary poems Message-ID: In a message dated 1/26/2005 5:45:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, shkodrov at yahoo.com writes: > Check out this one. I'm almost sure that most of you won't have strong > personal feelings about the events that are taking places here: > http://www.slovo.bg/showwork.php3?AuID=283&WorkID=10654&Level=2 > > What do you think? For any Bulgarian, this has more than just a documentary > value, but it might be called a propaganda as well... by those who are not > emotionally involved. Let me know how you feel about it. > > Rosie, I had to do a littlle web-crawling to locate the historical context and site of this battle scene... http://www.abvg.net/Shipka/ And now I understand the significance of the battle to a Bulgarian. The reference in the poem to the Spartans at Thermoplyae seems apt. Though thoroughly romantic about Greek history in his way, Cavafy would be good model for handling subjects with more retraint and understatement, yet still getting to a kind of grandeur. (The less is more thing.) Also, since you asked, I would go for 'closer in' detail and description, not so much broad-brush blood and guts, swash and buckle. The look of a Turk's uniform ripped open. References to the kinds of weapons used, the equipments and cannon. The name of a particular stream or some specific feature of the landscape. Gettysburg had its Little Round Top. That kind of detail would give the poem a documentary verisimilitude. I will say I can certainly feel the welling up of sentiment that drives the poem forward line to line. I don't think that should be lost. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jan 26 22:57:24 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:57:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In-Reply-To: <002901c503f6$31a43390$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Tad, Jim-- FYI, that was the book's title and credit for the phrase "documentary poem" is taken by one of the translators of the poems in that book--Robert Pring-Mill, who mentions in an introduction that Cardenal "seemed pleased" at his coinage. Hal Jim - it was attached to the end of the Cardenal poem that Hal posted, which is what got me to musing about it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In a message dated 1/26/2005 8:44:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: What is a documentary poem? Why cast a documentary in poetic form? Can being cast in poetic form add something to the documentary experience? Can giving documentary witness enrich a poem? A poem of minimal mediation? I can't answer the questions, but I do the like that term, "documentary poem." I think it could be a useful category... is it your term, Tad, or has this a category of poems that has been spoken of by others? A documentary poem would seem to depend almost solely on the poetic nature of the content itself, or a combination of that content's power and how it is seen. What things are selected to be foregrounded, what gets a close-up shot and what is cut entirely... the poem depending in part on the quality of the documentarist's attention, but makes it or fails primarily on the content's essential attraction. Finnegan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Jan 26 23:15:28 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:15:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Justice question Message-ID: <001d01c50426$d7b5c750$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> In "New and Selected Poems" and "Collected Poems" the first line of "Early Poems" is "How fashionably sad those early poems are!" I can't lay my hands on a copy of "Night Light" and my memory may be faulty, but I thought I remembered the line as "How fashionably sad my early poems are!" Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 05:36:24 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 05:36:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <41F80884.29592.1B5720@localhost> Message-ID: <004e01c5045c$0d3e5ba0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 26 Jan 2005 at 9:04, Bob Grumman wrote: >> Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the history >> of the arts have artists working in received forms, using received >> techniques, at the same time a second group of the same kind of >> artists has been working in new forms, using new techniques, become >> known later as the "best and most serious" of artists working in that >> period?< > > Whose definition of "new", Bob? Or "received"? The sane person's, Marcus. >But Pope, Dryden, and > Byron leap to mind. What group of poets working with forms and/or techniques any sane person would consider new was active when Dryden and Pope were? >Tennyson. Swinburne. Frost. Yeats. > As I said in other posts, I'm talking about groups. I'm saying when two groups of poets are simultaneously active in a period, the one working with the new will produce significantly more last poets than the one working with the old. By the way, why won't you give me a direct answer as to whether unmetrical lineated texts that rhyme are poetry or not? Yes or no? A non-verosopath would be able to. --Bob G. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 05:38:20 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 05:38:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <41F80ADD.7554.2482FE@localhost> Message-ID: <005301c5045c$52628da0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 26 Jan 2005 at 9:59, Bob Grumman wrote: >> To continue being malicious, I would ask when in the history of art >> did a group confining its practice to what the generation BEFORE the >> previous generation was doing produced more than a very few lasting >> artists, when another group was working in new forms, and using new >> techniques. > > Pope after Dryden. > > Jeez, Bob, why not familiarize yourself with this history before > setting out to toss the baby out with the bathtub? You asked before > why I attribute bad motives to you, and don't believe your claims to > good ones -- and it is this conscious, deliberate ignorance, and your > nonetheless bumptious insistence that you're right. "Often wrong but > never in doubt" about describes your approach to this whole poetry > thing, doesn't it? > Not in this case. As I said in my previous post to you, the key to what I'm asking is "when another group was working in new forms." What group of poets was working in new forms or techniques when Pope wrote? --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 06:06:19 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:06:19 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Justice question References: <001d01c50426$d7b5c750$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <41F8CB2B.E5E136A2@earthlink.net> > The Old Mole wrote: > > In "New and Selected Poems" and "Collected Poems" the first line of > "Early Poems" is "How fashionably sad those early poems are!" > > I can't lay my hands on a copy of "Night Light" and my memory may be > faulty, but I thought I remembered the line as "How fashionably sad my > early poems are!" Good memory. That's exactly the line in the Night Light version. - Jim From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 27 06:32:53 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:32:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <009101c503ab$5e8c2160$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F88B15.5933.3B8A9E@localhost> Marcus Bales wrote: > >> >> > . . . I hold that metrical writing is poetry and non-metrical > >> >> > writing is prose. > >> >> > >> > On 25 Jan 2005 at 21:40, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> Lineation doesn't come into it? Marcus Bales wrote: > >> > Lineation is a function of meter. > > On 25 Jan 2005 at 22:20, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Okay, although that isn't necessarily so, according to the > >> dictionary. > >> What about lineated texts that rhyme but are not metrical? Are > >> they prose, as your definition claims they must be? Marcus Bales wrote: > > The dictionary's function is not to be the court of last appeal for > > those knowledgeable in any given field, Bob -- but if you insist, > > I'll bet I can find some dictionary somewhere from sometime to > > support nearly any position. I hold that what distinguishes poetry > > from prose is meter, and that that has been the distinction between > > the two for thousands of years across human language. As Robin > > Hamilton and Mike Snider have pointed out, there are lots of kinds > > of meter in lots of kinds of languages. But that French or Greek > > poetry relies on this or that kind of meter to distinguish poetry > > from prose, while English or Japanese on this or that other kind of > > meter supports rather than undermines my position that meter is the > > distinguishing factor between poetry and prose. On 26 Jan 2005 at 8:31, Bob Grumman wrote: > And what equivalent of free verse did the ancients call prose? The > problem is that lineated unmetrical texts did not exist in ancient > times (at least numerously enough to be thought about).< There you go, Bob -- you answered your own question. It's not a "problem", though, it's the fact you have to deal with when you make your claim that it is lineation rather than meter that distinguishes poetry from prose. On 26 Jan 2005 at 8:31, Bob Grumman wrote: > When they did > become important enough to be classified, it seemed obvious to most > people that they were much more like what was called poetry than they > were like what was called prose. That's simply wrong. A few people made the claim that lineated non- metrical texts were poetry, and as their view came to dominate academics "most people" simply quit reading or valuing lineated non- metrical texts because "most people" say "That's not poetry." Perhaps you should get out more, Bob -- try to make the claim that "Iowa plainsong" is "poetry" to people who can still quote Swinburne or Tennyson from their school days, and you'll be greeted with stoney silence. Try to persuade them that your "mathemaku" are poetry and you'll be laughed out of the room. Your notion of "most people" seems to be "the people I associate with" -- broaden your horizons. Marcus Bales wrote: > > Rhyme is not of the essence to distinguish between poetry and prose, > > but to address your question, I'd suspect that lineated texts that > > rhyme but are not metrical were intended to be metrical and simply > > failed to be so, or are metrical in a way you don't immediately > > recognize, or are satirical, or mockery, or out of meter to make > > some other point. Here's an example: > > > > There once was a New York novelist named Peter > > Who tried to write neater > > Limerick lines > > Than mine > > But since he's a novelist not a poet he just fucked up the meter. > Bob Grumman wrote: > Very funny little rhyme. But you did not directly answer my > question. How should we classify lineated unmetrical texts that > have end rhymes? Lineated unmetrical texts that rhyme (Julia Moore and the like, I take it?) are intended to be metrical and simply fail at it, or are metrical in a way you don't immediately recognize, or are satirical, or mockery, or out of meter to make some other point. There are three classifications for you: failed meter, other meter, and satire -- and there may be more. Bob Grumman wrote: > I call free verse poetry because it seems to me to have more in common > with poetry than it does with prose. Prose is not lineated. Prose is > not significantly concerned with the sound of its words. Prose > generally is more concerned with its subject matter than with itself. > Prose does not try to slow the reader the way poetry does. It's more > utilitarian the poetry. Lineated non-metrical texts ("free verse") is not significantly concerned with the sound of its words. Lineated non-metrical texts ("free verse") is generally more concerned with its subject matter than with itself. Listen to what lineated non-metrical text ("free verse") writers say about the theory behind what they do: they do not talk about the sound of the words or being concerned with "itself" -- they speak of subject matter; they claim that they are saying original, important, significant things; their claim is that it is their content, not their rhetoric, that is important. Of course, when you examine what they say, you'll find it's the same old set of banalities every generation produces, allowing for differences in social mores and technology. They say nothing new -- because there's nothing new to say -- and they say it in prose as you describe prose: utilitarian, not concerned with sound or itself. The only thing they do is lineate it, and that just isn't enough, Bob, to distinguish it from prose. > Now a question for you: why must you attribute unattractive motives to > your opponents? ... Why can't you ignore mine--or accept that when I tell > you that I call free verse poetry, I do so because I believe it makes > sense to, period?< I read what you write, Bob, and it doesn't make sense without "unattractive motives". You describe lineated non-metrical texts as prose in every way except lineation, and try to say that lineation is enough to distinguish poetry from prose, and ignore the thousands of years and thousands of languages in which poetry is distinguished from prose by meter -- different kinds of meter, to be sure, but always (or so close to always that it makes no difference) by meter. So the question I ask is "Why do this?", and the answer I see is "Well, it's a whole lot easier to lineate one's prose and _call_ it poetry than it is to master meter and actually _write_ poetry, and I get to be recognized as 'a poet', to boot!" As for why don't I just believe you, why should I? The point of a discussion is to put forward views -- and defend them from challenges. > Free verse is definitely NOT prose,<< I disagree. You describe it as prose in every way except lineation, and so do its practitioners. It's merely lineated prose -- it has no meter, so it's prose. It's no vice to write prose -- why not just call it prose, if not because the writer wants to claim to be a poet without having to master the tools of poetry? Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 06:58:52 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:58:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F88B15.5933.3B8A9E@localhost> Message-ID: <010f01c50467$929a3750$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Are you capable of answering a simple question yes or no? Are lineated texts that rhyme poetry? I'll only bother with one commonet of yours: by "most people," I mean most reasonably educated people. That there are a few people in the hinterlands who believe that texts that don't rhyme are not poetry, and a few more who are capable of accepting blank verse as poetry, doesn't change my mind. I'm fairly sure, in fact, that most people, taking the term as literally as you do when it suits your purpose, do accept unmetrical lineated texts as poetry. Even the few magazines devoted to your idea of poetry state that they want poetry that is metrical thus demonstrating that they believe there is poetry that is not metrical. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 6:32 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! > Marcus Bales wrote: >> >> >> > . . . I hold that metrical writing is poetry and non-metrical >> >> >> > writing is prose. >> >> >> >> >> > On 25 Jan 2005 at 21:40, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> >> Lineation doesn't come into it? > > Marcus Bales wrote: >> >> > Lineation is a function of meter. > >> > On 25 Jan 2005 at 22:20, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> Okay, although that isn't necessarily so, according to the >> >> dictionary. >> >> What about lineated texts that rhyme but are not metrical? Are >> >> they prose, as your definition claims they must be? > > Marcus Bales wrote: >> > The dictionary's function is not to be the court of last appeal for >> > those knowledgeable in any given field, Bob -- but if you insist, >> > I'll bet I can find some dictionary somewhere from sometime to >> > support nearly any position. I hold that what distinguishes poetry >> > from prose is meter, and that that has been the distinction between >> > the two for thousands of years across human language. As Robin >> > Hamilton and Mike Snider have pointed out, there are lots of kinds >> > of meter in lots of kinds of languages. But that French or Greek >> > poetry relies on this or that kind of meter to distinguish poetry >> > from prose, while English or Japanese on this or that other kind of >> > meter supports rather than undermines my position that meter is the >> > distinguishing factor between poetry and prose. > > On 26 Jan 2005 at 8:31, Bob Grumman wrote: >> And what equivalent of free verse did the ancients call prose? The >> problem is that lineated unmetrical texts did not exist in ancient >> times (at least numerously enough to be thought about).< > > There you go, Bob -- you answered your own question. It's not a > "problem", though, it's the fact you have to deal with when you make > your claim that it is lineation rather than meter that distinguishes > poetry from prose. > > On 26 Jan 2005 at 8:31, Bob Grumman wrote: >> When they did >> become important enough to be classified, it seemed obvious to most >> people that they were much more like what was called poetry than they >> were like what was called prose. > > That's simply wrong. A few people made the claim that lineated non- > metrical texts were poetry, and as their view came to dominate > academics "most people" simply quit reading or valuing lineated non- > metrical texts because "most people" say "That's not poetry." Perhaps > you should get out more, Bob -- try to make the claim that "Iowa > plainsong" is "poetry" to people who can still quote Swinburne or > Tennyson from their school days, and you'll be greeted with stoney > silence. Try to persuade them that your "mathemaku" are poetry and > you'll be laughed out of the room. Your notion of "most people" seems > to be "the people I associate with" -- broaden your horizons. > > Marcus Bales wrote: >> > Rhyme is not of the essence to distinguish between poetry and prose, >> > but to address your question, I'd suspect that lineated texts that >> > rhyme but are not metrical were intended to be metrical and simply >> > failed to be so, or are metrical in a way you don't immediately >> > recognize, or are satirical, or mockery, or out of meter to make >> > some other point. Here's an example: >> > >> > There once was a New York novelist named Peter >> > Who tried to write neater >> > Limerick lines >> > Than mine >> > But since he's a novelist not a poet he just fucked up the meter. >> > > Bob Grumman wrote: >> Very funny little rhyme. But you did not directly answer my >> question. How should we classify lineated unmetrical texts that >> have end rhymes? > > Lineated unmetrical texts that rhyme (Julia Moore and the like, I > take it?) are intended to be metrical and simply fail at it, or are > metrical in a way you don't immediately recognize, or are satirical, > or mockery, or out of meter to make some other point. There are three > classifications for you: failed meter, other meter, and satire -- and > there may be more. > > Bob Grumman wrote: >> I call free verse poetry because it seems to me to have more in common >> with poetry than it does with prose. Prose is not lineated. Prose is >> not significantly concerned with the sound of its words. Prose >> generally is more concerned with its subject matter than with itself. >> Prose does not try to slow the reader the way poetry does. It's more >> utilitarian the poetry. > > Lineated non-metrical texts ("free verse") is not significantly > concerned with the sound of its words. Lineated non-metrical texts > ("free verse") is generally more concerned with its subject matter > than with itself. Listen to what lineated non-metrical text ("free > verse") writers say about the theory behind what they do: they do not > talk about the sound of the words or being concerned with "itself" -- > they speak of subject matter; they claim that they are saying > original, important, significant things; their claim is that it is > their content, not their rhetoric, that is important. Of course, when > you examine what they say, you'll find it's the same old set of > banalities every generation produces, allowing for differences in > social mores and technology. They say nothing new -- because there's > nothing new to say -- and they say it in prose as you describe prose: > utilitarian, not concerned with sound or itself. The only thing they > do is lineate it, and that just isn't enough, Bob, to distinguish it > from prose. > >> Now a question for you: why must you attribute unattractive motives to >> your opponents? ... Why can't you ignore mine--or accept that when I tell >> you that I call free verse poetry, I do so because I believe it makes >> sense to, period?< > > I read what you write, Bob, and it doesn't make sense without > "unattractive motives". You describe lineated non-metrical texts as > prose in every way except lineation, and try to say that lineation is > enough to distinguish poetry from prose, and ignore the thousands of > years and thousands of languages in which poetry is distinguished > from prose by meter -- different kinds of meter, to be sure, but > always (or so close to always that it makes no difference) by meter. > > So the question I ask is "Why do this?", and the answer I see is > "Well, it's a whole lot easier to lineate one's prose and _call_ it > poetry than it is to master meter and actually _write_ poetry, and I > get to be recognized as 'a poet', to boot!" > > As for why don't I just believe you, why should I? The point of a > discussion is to put forward views -- and defend them from > challenges. > >> Free verse is definitely NOT prose,<< > > I disagree. You describe it as prose in every way except lineation, > and so do its practitioners. It's merely lineated prose -- it has no > meter, so it's prose. It's no vice to write prose -- why not just > call it prose, if not because the writer wants to claim to be a poet > without having to master the tools of poetry? > > Marcus > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 27 07:59:11 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:59:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <004e01c5045c$0d3e5ba0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F89F4F.28861.8A8D48@localhost> > > On 26 Jan 2005 at 9:04, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the > >> history of the arts have artists working in received forms, using > >> received techniques, at the same time a second group of the same > >> kind of artists has been working in new forms, using new > >> techniques, become known later as the "best and most serious" of > >> artists working in that period?< Marcus Bales wrote: > > Whose definition of "new", Bob? Or "received"? On 27 Jan 2005 at 5:36, Bob Grumman wrote: > The sane person's, Marcus.< I take it that you phrase it that way because you can't define your terms adequately -- but what's new with that? But I guess we can say it's "received". Marcus Bales wrote: > >But Pope, Dryden, and Byron leap to mind. > What group of poets working with forms and/or techniques any sane > person would consider new was active when Dryden and Pope were? First, Bob, here's an example of your disingenuous changing of the question progressively as it's revealed that your first assumptions are wrong. You pretend it's the same question, but it's not -- and that's where the disingenuousness comes in. But to answer this question, which is different from your fist question, what was "new" in poetry at the time was Dryden's use of heroic couplets in narrative poems; what was "new" about Pope's use of heroic couplets was his expansion of the form, and the creation of a "narrator's persona" within that form. No Byron without Pope, and no Lowell or Plath, either. You're so used to thinking of Dryden and Pope as "old" that you can't imagine, apparently, that they were once "new". You insist that there must have been someone writing mathemaku at the time, some poor dispossessed unrecognized genius like you who the politics of poetry at the time cheated out of his due in favor of those sticks-in-the-mud, Dryden and Pope. Marcus Bales wrote: > >Tennyson. Swinburne. Frost. Yeats. Bob Grumman wrote: > As I said in other posts, I'm talking about groups. I'm saying when > two groups of poets are simultaneously active in a period, the one > working with the new will produce significantly more last poets than > the one working with the old. Well, then give your own damned examples, Bob. It's wearying to have you constantly make uninformed assertions and challenge the answers in an ongoing effort to get the education in poetry and the history of poetry that you evidently missed completely in school and in the 30 years you say you've been pushing your agenda. I'll bet you have a perpetual motion machine you're working on in the basement, too, don't you? In order to support your assertion, Bob, you must give a lot of examples over a lot of time. Even in order to have the standing to make the assertion you have to demonstrate sufficient familiarity with the history of poetry to be taken seriously, and what you're doing here is just the opposite: you're demonstrating that you have almost no knowledge of the history of poetry (and, of course, there are all those statements you constantly make about how you haven't read this or haven't read that) by making ridiculous assertions and then demanding that others disprove them by demonstrating the very sort of thorough-going familiarity with the history of poetry that you yourself disdain to show -- and I suspect it's because you haven't got it. Bob Grumman wrote: > By the way, why won't you give me a direct answer as to whether > unmetrical lineated texts that rhyme are poetry or not? Yes or no? ...< Ah, the old False Choice Fallacy again, eh, Bob? As I've said before, it depends on the context. It could be just such bad work by someone trying to write in meter that we're forced to say it's poetry because it's attempted but failed writing-in-meter, it could be inadvertent, as Robert Graves quotes in his and Alan Hodge's book, The Reader Over Your Shoulder, where he says, in reviewing an old mathematical text: ? And yet no force, however great, can stretch a cord, however fine, into a horizontal line that shall be absolutely straight.? And yet no force, however great Can stretch a cord, however fine, Into a horizontal line That shall be absolutely straight. or it could be, as in my example for Peter Tauber, a satirical mis- use of meter to make a point. But in order to make YOUR point, Bob, you have to show that there is such a thing as "unmetrical lineated texts that rhyme" in more than just a null-set abstraction. Give an example of "unmetrical lineated texts that rhyme" when it's at home, Bob -- that is, in context, and I'll give you my opinion about whether it's poetry or not. What you're asking, it seems, is whether something must exist because you can name it -- a discussion that famously goes back to the Greeks who debated about "Nothing", not in a Seinfeldian way, but about whether by naming "Nothing" they were really talking about "Something" which contradicted the notion of "Nothing" in the first place. And the beat goes on: our contemporary Stanislaw Lem wrote a book called "Cyberiad" in which the entire beginning is just another take on what can be meant when people speak of "nothing" and "Nothing", examining it through sci-fi consequences for possible real consequences. Just because you can say something doesn't make it true, important, significant, or even consequential. Your view of the world seems to be so rigidly categorical, so unyieldingly black-and-white, so absolutely yes-no, that you don't seem to recognize that what you see as strict categories others see as contextually-driven blurry-edged assortments. Come to think of it, I can start to see, now, why you to reduce words to integer status, and try to manipulate them according to mathematical operands -- you are ambiguity-intolerant, or as you'd undoubtedly say, "ambigerant". Oops, there goes another ambigerant! Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 08:26:33 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:26:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <41F89F4F.28861.8A8D48@localhost> Message-ID: <016c01c50473$d251bf10$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob Grumman wrote: >> By the way, why won't you give me a direct answer as to whether >> unmetrical lineated texts that rhyme are poetry or not? Yes or no? ...< > > Ah, the old False Choice Fallacy again, eh, Bob? No, it's a simple question that you evade with a reference to the "old False Choice Fallacy" again, V. But you seem to have admitted that it's poetry--"failed poetry." So I'll leave you yet again as being a waste of time to try to discuss anything with. From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 27 08:32:23 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:32:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <010f01c50467$929a3750$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F8A717.32351.A8F445@localhost> Bob Grumman wrote: > Are you capable of answering a simple question yes or no?< Ah, the False Choice Fallacy, again, eh, Bob? Bob Grumman wrote: > Are lineated texts that rhyme poetry?< You've changed it again -- before it was "non-metrical lineated texts that rhyme". It is just this kind of constant changing-of-the- question that marks your approach as disingenuous, Bob. Give me an example of "non-metrical lineated text that rhyme", in context, and I'll give you my opinion about whether that example is poetry -- but as a general rule, Bob, no -- the 'non-metrical' part means that it would not be poetry in my view. Give me an example, though. Bob Grumman wrote: > I'll only bother with one commonet of yours: by "most people," I mean > most reasonably educated people. That there are a few people in the > hinterlands who believe that texts that don't rhyme are not poetry, > and a few more who are capable of accepting blank verse as poetry, > doesn't change my mind.< Well, say what you mean, and mean what you say, Bob. If you mean to say "most reasonably educated people" then say it -- but you have to know you'll be challenged about it. Is a business or economics education "reasonably educated"? Is someone with a BA in business, an MBA, and a PhD in economics, "reasonably educated" in your view, for instance? What about English majors who studied the novel and really don't have either any interest or opinion about poetry? What about education majors? Are they "reasonably educated"? Journalism majors? Biologists? Doctors? Lawyers? Bob Grumman wrote: > I'm fairly sure, in fact, that most people, > taking the term as literally as you do when it suits your purpose, do > accept unmetrical lineated texts as poetry.< I think you're wrong, here, Bob -- I think they will accept that the wackos who've hijacked poetry _call_ unmetrical lineated texts "poetry", but it's just lineated prose to them. Ask them. Even after being beaten up intellectually and emotionally for years, even decades, in the US educational system, most people will still look at unmetrical lineated texts (not to mention "mathemaku"!) and ask "Why is that poetry?" Marcus From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 27 08:48:08 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:48:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <016c01c50473$d251bf10$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F8AAC8.11504.B75CE5@localhost> > > Bob Grumman wrote: > >> By the way, why won't you give me a direct answer as to whether > >> unmetrical lineated texts that rhyme are poetry or not? Yes or no? > >> ...< Marcus Bales wrote: > > Ah, the old False Choice Fallacy again, eh, Bob? On 27 Jan 2005 at 8:26, Bob Grumman wrote: > No, it's a simple question that you evade with a reference to the "old > False Choice Fallacy" again...< I've answered this three times, Bob, and in some detail. You're offering a false choice, and I'm pointing out why. You don't like that. Well, too bad. Ask a better question. Give an example. Do some actual intellectual work, Bob, instead of asking questions that demonstrate your ignorance of the issues, and the intellectual history of the issues. On 27 Jan 2005 at 8:26, Bob Grumman wrote: > But you seem to have admitted that it's poetry--"failed poetry."< I've given you several ways to think about it in abstract terms; there are many possibilities. If you want to keep it in such abstract terms, then in the absence of any examples from you I'll hold it's an empty set. All the examples I can think of are readily describable in terms of "failed meter" or "meter one doesn't recognize" or "satire". If you have examples that you think show whatever it is you think you're trying to show, then give the examples and say what you're trying to show. Marcus From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 27 08:52:50 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:52:50 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F8A717.32351.A8F445@localhost> Message-ID: <005b01c50477$7ec00560$d2309b51@Robin> > Give me an example of "non-metrical lineated text that rhyme", in > context, and I'll give you my opinion about whether that example is > poetry -- I don't know whether this counts, Marcus, but it might be a test-case -- Chaucer read in a modern English voice: rhyme without rhythm (and OK, some of the rhymes vanish too, but you can't have everything): When that April with his showers sweet The drought of March hath pierced to the root And bathed every vein in such liqueur Of which virtue engendered is the flower ... Robin (Incidentally, this doesn't happen if you play the same game with Chaucer's contemporary Langland -- whatever is changed or lost, the basic alliterative metre remains intact. R.) From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 27 09:03:27 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:03:27 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <41F89F4F.28861.8A8D48@localhost> Message-ID: <005c01c50478$fac1f910$d2309b51@Robin> Marcus: > But to answer this question, which is different from your fist > question, what was "new" in poetry at the time was Dryden's use of > heroic couplets in narrative poems; what was "new" about Pope's use > of heroic couplets was his expansion of the form, and the creation of > a "narrator's persona" within that form. Substituting (which may be a little unfair) the more-neutral term "rhymed iambic pentameter couplet" for "heroic couplet", Marlowe ("Hero and Leander") and others were doing this well before Dryden, and Donne (in the Satires, which Pope incidentally "translated") and others were doing this well before Pope. ... and then there's Chaucer who was writing narrative poems and deploying a narrative persona in iambic pentameter couplet poems as early as the late 14thC. I'm not denying merit in extending the possibilities of verse to Dryden or Pope, but both were extending rather than innovating. (Would it be fair to say that "innovation" usually comes in -- the Romantics, the Modernists -- when "extension" has been exhausted?) Robin From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Thu Jan 27 09:14:48 2005 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:14:48 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <005301c5045c$52628da0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <41F80ADD.7554.2482FE@localhost> <005301c5045c$52628da0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <1106835288.41f8f758d5e0a@webmail.ukonline.net> To Peter Cudmore: I thought what you wrote about the lineage of early 20th c composers seemed about right. My British perspective is that there is no decline in the reputation, indeed popularity, of Schoenberg Berg and Webern - I hear these as often played on BBC Radio 3 as Stravinsky or Bartok. Again from a British perspective, I suspect some of us find what the 2nd Vienna school was doing (conceived in Brahmsian terms) easier to understand than Strav or Bart, though my admiration for Bartok is intense. In my conception of Schoenberg, I don't really understand his project as modernist at all, rather as a way of prolonging the tradition of intensely rigorous composition through theme, structure and transformation. (Schoenberg saw that without some kind of fresh advance the art that he loved would simply die on its feet - death by fossilization) Which brings me neatly to... Bob: I've been thinking about your remark that a particular technical phase has a shelf-life and in due course becomes worked out. I think that's basically right, though it's remarkable how some folk-forms manage to outlast civilisations and still be fresh. Is the haiku the yew-tree of poetry? Anyhow, I was thinking of C.S.Lewis' "English Literature in the Sixteenth Century" and how, though the emphasis is rightly on individuals, it does outline some phases that could form the basis for a more general theory. In this case the technical form is expressive, dancing, metrical verse as eventually typified by, say a Shakespeare sonnet of the early 1590s. Look back over the previous fifty years and you can see: Phase 1: dissatisfaction. Poets are frustrated by the limitations of their poetry but don't know why. Phase 2: judgmental chaos because certain incompetent works, by happening to anticipate the desire for a poetry that doesn't yet exist, are grotesquely over-rated. (And whose worst features are then endlessly copied by second-rate authors) Phase 3: discovery of regular metrical verse, very plain and tepid. A bit of a false dawn because we have the form but poets don't really know what can be done with it. Phase 4: full competence in the form. (SIdney about here...) Phase 5: expansion of the form's potential (Shakes about here....) Phase 6: lesser writers discover how to use the new form to write decent poems, but this flood of only-decent production soon begins to induce a familiarity-breeds-contempt reaction. Phase 7: doing unexpected things with the form Phase 7a: varying the form (e.g. none of Donne's "Songs and Sonets" is in fact a sonnet...) Phase 8: playing decadent tricks with the form Phase 9: parodying and getting intertextual with the form Phase 10: making derisive jokes about clownish people who still use the form. Phase 11: clownish people making jokes about trailer-trash who still use the form. Etc etc. Something along those lines, anyway. Of course in practice many of these phases co-exist at the same time. ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 09:17:34 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:17:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F8A717.32351.A8F445@localhost> Message-ID: <019b01c5047a$f2dd2e70$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob Grumman wrote: >> Are you capable of answering a simple question yes or no?< > > Ah, the False Choice Fallacy, again, eh, Bob? > > Bob Grumman wrote: >> Are lineated texts that rhyme poetry?< > > You've changed it again -- before it was "non-metrical lineated texts > that rhyme". It is just this kind of constant changing-of-the- > question that marks your approach as disingenuous, Bob. No possibility I merely forgot to put in "non-metrical?" Was my spelling of "comment" as "commonet" another instance of my disingenuity? You want an example, so have hooked me again: While sitting in a small orange lifeboat I slowly, painstakingly wrote an unmetrical bunch of words that nonetheless sang, in my not-unknowledgeable opinion, like birds. This is a text whose author's aim is to rhyme but NOT produce any regular meter. If it's not poetry, what is it? I could also offer many pop song lyrics, and rhymes by people who believe rhymes are what characterize poems, not meter, which they might not even realize exists--if I could remember any of them. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 27 09:25:32 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:25:32 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <41F80ADD.7554.2482FE@localhost><005301c5045c$52628da0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1106835288.41f8f758d5e0a@webmail.ukonline.net> Message-ID: <008401c5047c$106cf8c0$d2309b51@Robin> From: ... a slight qualification. > Phase 7a: varying the form (e.g. none of Donne's "Songs and Sonets" is in fact > a sonnet...) That's because in the "Songs and Sonets", Donne (or whoever gave that title to them -- it's not, I think, in any of the MSS and first appears in the 1633 postumous edition) meant by "sonet" a "small song". Where Donne *does* innovate in the sonnet form is in the Holy Sonnets [sic], where he uses what has hitherto been a secular/erotic form for religious purposes. I *think* Donne is the first writer to do this, in English at least. Robin Hamilton From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 27 09:38:25 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:38:25 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F8A717.32351.A8F445@localhost> <019b01c5047a$f2dd2e70$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009a01c5047d$dda50610$d2309b51@Robin> Non-metrical rhymed texts that are considered poetry ... As a Scot, how could I have forgotten this till now? William Mcgonagall!!! (All right-thinking Scots consider Mcgonagall to be a True Poet.) Here's the whole of the best-known of his poems. Robin The Tay Bridge Disaster Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv'ry Tay! Alas! I am very sorry to say That ninety lives have been taken away On the last Sabbath day of 1879, Which will be remember'd for a very long time. 'Twas about seven o'clock at night, And the wind it blew with all its might, And the rain came pouring down, And the dark clods seem'd to frown, And the Demon of the air seem'd to say- "I'll blow down the Bridge of Tay." When the train left Edinburgh The passengers' hearts were light and felt no sorrow, But Boreas blew a terrific gale, Which made their hearts for to quail, And many of the passengers with fear did say- "I hope God will send us safe across the Bridge of Tay." But when the train came near to Wormit Bay, Boreas he did loud and angry bray, And shook the central girders of the Bridge of Tay On the last Sabbath day of 1879, Which will be remember'd for a very long time. So the train sped on with all its might, And Bonnie Dundee soon hove in sught, And the passengers' hearts felt light, Thinking they would enjoy themselves on the New Year, With their friends at home they lov'd most dear, And wish them all a happy New Year. So the train mov'd slowly along the Bridge of Tay, Until it was about midway, Then the central girders with a crash gave way, And down went the train and passengers into the Tay! The Storm Fiend did loudly bray, Because ninety lives had been taken away, On the last Sabbath day of 1879, Which will be remember'd for a very long time. As soon as the catastrophe came to be known The alarm from mouth to mouth was blown, And the cry rang out all o'er the town, Good Heavens! the Tay Bridge is blown down, And a passenger train from Edinburgh, Which fill'd all the peoples hearts with sorrow, And made them for to turn pale, Because none of the passengers were sav'd to tell the tale How the disaster happen'd on the last Sabbath day of 1879, Which will be remember'd for a very long time. It must have been an awful sight, To witness in the dusky moonlight, While the Storm Fiend did laugh, and angry did bray, Along the Railway Bridge of the Silv'ry Tay, Oh! ill-fated Bridge of thSilv'ry Tay, I must now conclude my lay By telling the world fearlessly without the least dismay, That your central girders would not have given way, At least many sensible men do say, Had they been supported on each side with buttresses, At least many sensible men confesses, For the stronger we our houses do build, The less chance we have of being killed. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 09:46:29 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:46:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <41F80ADD.7554.2482FE@localhost><005301c5045c$52628da0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1106835288.41f8f758d5e0a@webmail.ukonline.net> Message-ID: <01d101c5047e$fcd16960$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > To Peter Cudmore: > > I thought what you wrote about the lineage of early 20th c composers > seemed > about right. My British perspective is that there is no decline in the > reputation, indeed popularity, of Schoenberg Berg and Webern - I hear > these as > often played on BBC Radio 3 as Stravinsky or Bartok. Again from a British > perspective, I suspect some of us find what the 2nd Vienna school was > doing > (conceived in Brahmsian terms) easier to understand than Strav or Bart, > though > my admiration for Bartok is intense. In my conception of Schoenberg, I > don't > really understand his project as modernist at all, rather as a way of > prolonging the tradition of intensely rigorous composition through theme, > structure and transformation. (Schoenberg saw that without some kind of > fresh > advance the art that he loved would simply die on its feet - death by > fossilization) > > Which brings me neatly to... > > Bob: I've been thinking about your remark that a particular technical > phase > has a shelf-life and in due course becomes worked out. I think that's > basically right, though it's remarkable how some folk-forms manage to > outlast > civilisations and still be fresh. Is the haiku the yew-tree of poetry? > Anyhow, > I was thinking of C.S.Lewis' "English Literature in the Sixteenth Century" > and > how, though the emphasis is rightly on individuals, it does outline some > phases that could form the basis for a more general theory. In this case > the > technical form is expressive, dancing, metrical verse as eventually > typified > by, say a Shakespeare sonnet of the early 1590s. Look back over the > previous > fifty years and you can see: > Phase 1: dissatisfaction. Poets are frustrated by the limitations of their > poetry but don't know why. > Phase 2: judgmental chaos because certain incompetent works, by happening > to > anticipate the desire for a poetry that doesn't yet exist, are grotesquely > over-rated. (And whose worst features are then endlessly copied by > second-rate > authors) while certain competent works are under-rated because veering from tradition (although I don't know whether that would apply to the period you're writing about--except that blank verse was scorned for a while) > Phase 3: discovery of regular metrical verse, very plain and tepid. A bit > of a > false dawn because we have the form but poets don't really know what can > be > done with it. > Phase 4: full competence in the form. (SIdney about here...) > Phase 5: expansion of the form's potential (Shakes about here....) > Phase 6: lesser writers discover how to use the new form to write decent > poems, but this flood of only-decent production soon begins to induce a > familiarity-breeds-contempt reaction. > Phase 7: doing unexpected things with the form > Phase 7a: varying the form (e.g. none of Donne's "Songs and Sonets" is in > fact > a sonnet...) > Phase 8: playing decadent tricks with the form > Phase 9: parodying and getting intertextual with the form > Phase 10: making derisive jokes about clownish people who still use the > form. > Phase 11: clownish people making jokes about trailer-trash who still use > the > form. Etc etc. > > Something along those lines, anyway. Of course in practice many of these > phases co-exist at the same time. That all makes sense to me. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 09:52:56 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:52:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F8A717.32351.A8F445@localhost><019b01c5047a$f2dd2e70$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009a01c5047d$dda50610$d2309b51@Robin> Message-ID: <01eb01c5047f$e337cd90$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Non-metrical rhymed texts that are considered poetry ... > > As a Scot, how could I have forgotten this till now? > > William Mcgonagall!!! > Yes, wonderful poem. But is it a poem or a "failed poem?" If the latter, does that make it prose or put it in a third category? I think most people would agree with me that it's doggerel. I don't know how many would agree with me that doggerel is a form of poetry. DOggerel is not prose, though. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 27 10:30:48 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:30:48 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F8A717.32351.A8F445@localhost><019b01c5047a$f2dd2e70$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c5047d$dda50610$d2309b51@Robin> <01eb01c5047f$e337cd90$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001d01c50485$2e545f50$d2309b51@Robin> > > William Mcgonagall!!! > > > Yes, wonderful poem. Glad you like it, Bob. Never come on Mcgonagall's work before? > But is it a poem or a "failed poem?" I think neither -- I'd say (but as a Scot, I'm obviously biased) that it's a poem pure and simple. ... but Mcgonagall is pretty much sui generis. > If the latter, > does that make it prose or put it in a third category? I think most people > would agree with me that it's doggerel. Dem's fighting works, matey!!! Doggerel is soon forgotten, Mcgonagall isn't simply remembered or even still in print, but a new (complete/composite) edition of his work was issued only a year or so ago. > I don't know how many would agree > with me that doggerel is a form of poetry. DOggerel is not prose, though. Concur. Off the point, in a sequence I am (was?) working on, Mcgonagall (along with The Admirable Crichton and Cyrano de Bergerac) featured as avatars of the central narrator (the Spider). Here are a couple. MCGONAGALL'S PRIVATE THOUGHTS Oh beautiful bridge over the silvery Tay, Bless me that I wasn't on the train that day: Truly a fearsome sight to see, but worse to be Stuck in a carriage on the middle span anyway. Thank you Lord, that I am here to write this poem today, Not sunk deep in the waters of the River Tay, a very cold place to be. MCGONAGALL'S MUSE "You are not poet to Her Majesty; Tennyson is the real poet to Her Majesty" My muse was the Queen, of course, no doubt about it. That gracious lady - who could help but love her? Respectfully of course, from a discreet distance. Victoria inhabited my head, graced the furniture Of my mind - nodded regally, suggested a poem. I bowed deep, took up my pen, and wrote. Then one day I put on my pilgrim shoes, Locked the door of my cottage, set off. I wore out three pairs of shoes on that journey, Stopped at the occasional inn to play Macbeth, Finally arrived at Balmoral. The gates were shut. Necessary, I suppose. I know she knew I was Outside. Considered, reckoned up my poems with My worship, decided to remain inviolate. Dear lady, you were surely right, but it is hard: Can poems compensate such deprivation? And the cost of all those pairs of shoes. -- Robin Hamilton From shkodrov at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 11:14:15 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:14:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Documentary poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050127161415.25938.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks James, This is very interesting to me, and I completely agree with you, but... I feel that the way of expression also has its "documentary" value. The fact that we value visual images today (and here) better than emotional/sentimental expression is tightly related after all to the fact that we are practically drawn in images -- we get them instantly from all over the world with digital cameras and replicate them instantly through e-mails, mobile phones, tv, etc. This can't stay away from our verbal expression for long, can it? My point here is -- the writing style represents the culture, and the content represents the events. JforJames at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/26/2005 5:45:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, shkodrov at yahoo.com writes: Check out this one. I'm almost sure that most of you won't have strong personal feelings about the events that are taking places here: http://www.slovo.bg/showwork.php3?AuID=283&WorkID=10654&Level=2 What do you think? For any Bulgarian, this has more than just a documentary value, but it might be called a propaganda as well... by those who are not emotionally involved. Let me know how you feel about it. Rosie, I had to do a littlle web-crawling to locate the historical context and site of this battle scene... http://www.abvg.net/Shipka/ And now I understand the significance of the battle to a Bulgarian. The reference in the poem to the Spartans at Thermoplyae seems apt. Though thoroughly romantic about Greek history in his way, Cavafy would be good model for handling subjects with more retraint and understatement, yet still getting to a kind of grandeur. (The less is more thing.) Also, since you asked, I would go for 'closer in' detail and description, not so much broad-brush blood and guts, swash and buckle. The look of a Turk's uniform ripped open. References to the kinds of weapons used, the equipments and cannon. The name of a particular stream or some specific feature of the landscape. Gettysburg had its Little Round Top. That kind of detail would give the poem a documentary verisimilitude. I will say I can certainly feel the welling up of sentiment that drives the poem forward line to line. I don't think that should be lost. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 11:17:11 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:17:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F8A717.32351.A8F445@localhost><019b01c5047a$f2dd2e70$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c5047d$dda50610$d2309b51@Robin><01eb01c5047f$e337cd90$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001d01c50485$2e545f50$d2309b51@Robin> Message-ID: <021f01c5048b$a874cf80$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Funny stuff. As for McG, yes, I knew of him, and that poem--which I even declaimed at a poetry reading once. Most of the people didn't realize I was using it to get laughs, but a few did. Marcus Bales would feel right at home in these here parts. Still about to go sub, but here's a parting shot to get you going: I've decided that the Romantics didn't do anything new! They just changed subject matter. Okay, they did so (with the help of a few predecessors) importantly but did they work with new forms or techniques? My impression is no. all best, Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! >> > William Mcgonagall!!! >> > >> Yes, wonderful poem. > > Glad you like it, Bob. Never come on Mcgonagall's work before? > >> But is it a poem or a "failed poem?" > > I think neither -- I'd say (but as a Scot, I'm obviously biased) that it's > a > poem pure and simple. > > ... but Mcgonagall is pretty much sui generis. > >> If the latter, >> does that make it prose or put it in a third category? I think most > people >> would agree with me that it's doggerel. > > Dem's fighting works, matey!!! Doggerel is soon forgotten, Mcgonagall > isn't > simply remembered or even still in print, but a new (complete/composite) > edition of his work was issued only a year or so ago. > >> I don't know how many would agree >> with me that doggerel is a form of poetry. DOggerel is not prose, >> though. > > Concur. > > Off the point, in a sequence I am (was?) working on, Mcgonagall (along > with > The Admirable Crichton and Cyrano de Bergerac) featured as avatars of the > central narrator (the Spider). > > Here are a couple. > > MCGONAGALL'S PRIVATE THOUGHTS > > Oh beautiful bridge over the silvery Tay, > Bless me that I wasn't on the train that day: > Truly a fearsome sight to see, but worse to be > Stuck in a carriage on the middle span anyway. > Thank you Lord, that I am here to write this poem today, > Not sunk deep in the waters of the River Tay, a very cold place to be. > > > MCGONAGALL'S MUSE > > "You are not poet to Her Majesty; Tennyson is the real poet to Her > Majesty" > > My muse was the Queen, of course, no doubt about it. > That gracious lady - who could help but love her? > Respectfully of course, from a discreet distance. > Victoria inhabited my head, graced the furniture > Of my mind - nodded regally, suggested a poem. > > I bowed deep, took up my pen, and wrote. > > Then one day I put on my pilgrim shoes, > Locked the door of my cottage, set off. > > I wore out three pairs of shoes on that journey, > Stopped at the occasional inn to play Macbeth, > Finally arrived at Balmoral. The gates were shut. > > Necessary, I suppose. I know she knew I was > Outside. Considered, reckoned up my poems with > My worship, decided to remain inviolate. > > Dear lady, you were surely right, but it is hard: > Can poems compensate such deprivation? > And the cost of all those pairs of shoes. > > -- Robin Hamilton > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From clitophon at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 11:23:26 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:23:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo In-Reply-To: <021f01c5048b$a874cf80$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050127162326.24294.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> I've noticed that most of the hits I've been getting are from people googling 'farm sex'. Do you think that if I took my camera to a farm, photographed animals compulating, perhaps even hiring some girls to go and perform bizarre sex acts with animals, that this might be (overall) more profitable than publishing poetry and art? Or would it degrade me? Would the public think that I am a pornographer? I suppose it might be better than being ignored. 'There is only one thing worse than being talked about and that is being nudged off a cliff by a long-legged tarantula.' Salvador O'Dali Wilde I think (and I know that this is a controversial remark) that my website marks the end of the Western, Classical tradition and the beginning of a new history. In it, The Iliad, the first, foremost and possibly greatest work of Western literature has become nothing more than a figment of the imagination of the deracinated consciousness of the subject. Today our TV sets are filled with the pornography of sentimental denial of the past, in the form of an Auschwitz memorial, a memorial for an event whose consequences have been mis-used and abused by an industry and in the self-serving interests of US Imperialism and its uncritical support for its client state, Israel. My website (and I thought it was saying something of importance and relevance) is merely a substitute for the most degraded imaginings. But, what the Hell. After all, if you can't beat them join them....mooooooo.... www.theengine.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Thu Jan 27 11:26:47 2005 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:26:47 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Documentary poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050127101735.01076988@cyrus.undsmhs.net> Lest we overlook obvious "warhorses," particularly for use in teaching: Tennyson's "The Charge of the Light Brigade" and Browning's "How They Brought the Good News from Ghent to Aix..." Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 27 11:28:35 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:28:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Free verse in the WetWorld In-Reply-To: <41F8A717.32351.A8F445@localhost> References: <41F8A717.32351.A8F445@localhost> Message-ID: <8680734.1106843315928.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 08:33AM, Marcus Bales wrote: >I think you're wrong, here, Bob -- I think they will accept that the >wackos who've hijacked poetry _call_ unmetrical lineated texts >"poetry", but it's just lineated prose to them. Ask them. Even after >being beaten up intellectually and emotionally for years, even >decades, in the US educational system, most people will still look at >unmetrical lineated texts (not to mention "mathemaku"!) and ask "Why >is that poetry?" > Even though I'm one of the folks that says it _is_ poetry, that's certainly my experience with people older than about 30 outside English departments -- engineers, sheetrockers, drummers, programmers, roofers, sysadmins, and bartenders. Younger people, though -- I've got 2 girls, 13 and 15, and they've been thoroughly taught that poetry is just deep feelings, however worded. Yuck. Wordsworth has a lot to answer for. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 27 11:29:06 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:29:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <001d01c50485$2e545f50$d2309b51@Robin> Message-ID: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost> On 27 Jan 2005 at 14:03, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Substituting (which may be a little unfair) the more-neutral term > "rhymed iambic pentameter couplet" for "heroic couplet", Marlowe > ("Hero and Leander") and others were doing this well before Dryden, > and Donne (in the Satires, which Pope incidentally "translated") and > others were doing this well before Pope. > ... and then there's Chaucer who was writing narrative poems and > deploying a narrative persona in iambic pentameter couplet poems as > early as the late 14thC. > I'm not denying merit in extending the possibilities of verse to > Dryden or Pope, but both were extending rather than innovating. > (Would it be fair to say that "innovation" usually comes in -- the > Romantics, the Modernists -- when "extension" has been exhausted?) That's why I asked Bob Grumman to define "new" and "received" -- because I think a good argument can be made (though JforJames, the moderator of this board has now asked me back-channel not to make it, or any others, I take it, directed to Bob Grumman himself, and I don't know if you want to hear it, so I won't make it here -- though it might have been shorter than this parenthesis, at that) that the "heroic couplet" is different from, and an innovation on, the "rhymed iambic pentameter couplet". Let me ask you this: once you say that first Dryden's and then Pope's uses of the "rhymed iambic pentameter couplet" were refinements or extensions, what, exactly, do you say the Romantics did that was "new" in any sense meaningful in Bob Grumman's sense that "new" means something like the difference between leaping over a bar frontwards and Fosbury-flopping over it backwards? They still wrote in the same kinds of metered forms that we can find one or another poet writing in before them -- sometimes well before them. They still wrote about the same themes and for the same purposes, though with different politics, at least at first. What did the Romantics innovate at all? As for Modernists, I'm not sure just what you mean here, since it could mean nearly anything stuck beside "Romantic" like that. Do you mean the Ford/Lowell/Pound/Eliot folks? Or somewhat later? Or earlier? In my view, if you accept that discarding meter entirely is "an innovation", how can you accept that there was any innovation in English literature, or even distinction to speak of between, say, Chaucer and Swinburne, until discarding meter came to be regarded as an innovation? Marcus From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk Thu Jan 27 11:31:32 2005 From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:31:32 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <008401c5047c$106cf8c0$d2309b51@Robin> References: <41F80ADD.7554.2482FE@localhost><005301c5045c$52628da0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <1106835288.41f8f758d5e0a@webmail.ukonline.net> <008401c5047c$106cf8c0$d2309b51@Robin> Message-ID: <1106843492.41f9176412f64@webmail.ukonline.net> Quoting Robin Hamilton : > ... a slight qualification. > > > Phase 7a: varying the form (e.g. none of Donne's "Songs and Sonets" is in > fact > > a sonnet...) > > That's because in the "Songs and Sonets", Donne (or whoever gave that title > to them -- it's not, I think, in any of the MSS and first appears in the > 1633 postumous edition) meant by "sonet" a "small song". > > Where Donne *does* innovate in the sonnet form is in the Holy Sonnets [sic], > where he uses what has hitherto been a secular/erotic form for religious > purposes. > > I *think* Donne is the first writer to do this, in English at least. > > Robin Hamilton Thanks - I didn't know that about the title. On any account the Holy Sonnets are original, but I can think of one earlier religious sonnet, Shakespeare's (I can't remember exactly, but it's roughly 148) "Poor soul the centre of my sinful earth". There must have been others. I don't agree with what you said about Langland and modern pronunciation not affecting his meter. Modern pronuciation of words beginning with wr- or kn- would make a mess of the alliterative scheme. Also (though I can't blame you for not knowing this, since it was only realized about twenty years ago and is in fact one of my modest claims to fame) Langland adhered to a metrical rule that every line must end with has a feminine (un-accented) syllable. e.g. In a somere sesoun || whan soft'e was the sonn'e Modern spelling or modern pronunciation, suppressing the sound of final -e, would distort that element of the meter. ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Thu Jan 27 11:49:25 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:49:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups In-Reply-To: <41F89F4F.28861.8A8D48@localhost> References: <41F89F4F.28861.8A8D48@localhost> Message-ID: This is what hell is going to be like. On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Marcus Bales wrote: > > > On 26 Jan 2005 at 9:04, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> Being the way I am, I have a malicious question: when in the > > >> history of the arts have artists working in received forms, using > > >> received techniques, at the same time a second group of the same > > >> kind of artists has been working in new forms, using new > > >> techniques, become known later as the "best and most serious" of > > >> artists working in that period?< > > Marcus Bales wrote: > > > Whose definition of "new", Bob? Or "received"? > > On 27 Jan 2005 at 5:36, Bob Grumman wrote: > > The sane person's, Marcus.< > > I take it that you phrase it that way because you can't define your > terms adequately -- but what's new with that? But I guess we can say > it's "received". > > Marcus Bales wrote: > > >But Pope, Dryden, and Byron leap to mind. > > > What group of poets working with forms and/or techniques any sane > > person would consider new was active when Dryden and Pope were? > > First, Bob, here's an example of your disingenuous changing of the > question progressively as it's revealed that your first assumptions > are wrong. You pretend it's the same question, but it's not -- and > that's where the disingenuousness comes in. > > But to answer this question, which is different from your fist > question, what was "new" in poetry at the time was Dryden's use of > heroic couplets in narrative poems; what was "new" about Pope's use > of heroic couplets was his expansion of the form, and the creation of > a "narrator's persona" within that form. No Byron without Pope, and > no Lowell or Plath, either. You're so used to thinking of Dryden and > Pope as "old" that you can't imagine, apparently, that they were once > "new". You insist that there must have been someone writing mathemaku > at the time, some poor dispossessed unrecognized genius like you who > the politics of poetry at the time cheated out of his due in favor of > those sticks-in-the-mud, Dryden and Pope. > > Marcus Bales wrote: > > >Tennyson. Swinburne. Frost. Yeats. > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > As I said in other posts, I'm talking about groups. I'm saying when > > two groups of poets are simultaneously active in a period, the one > > working with the new will produce significantly more last poets than > > the one working with the old. > > Well, then give your own damned examples, Bob. It's wearying to have > you constantly make uninformed assertions and challenge the answers > in an ongoing effort to get the education in poetry and the history > of poetry that you evidently missed completely in school and in the > 30 years you say you've been pushing your agenda. I'll bet you have a > perpetual motion machine you're working on in the basement, too, > don't you? > > In order to support your assertion, Bob, you must give a lot of > examples over a lot of time. Even in order to have the standing to > make the assertion you have to demonstrate sufficient familiarity > with the history of poetry to be taken seriously, and what you're > doing here is just the opposite: you're demonstrating that you have > almost no knowledge of the history of poetry (and, of course, there > are all those statements you constantly make about how you haven't > read this or haven't read that) by making ridiculous assertions and > then demanding that others disprove them by demonstrating the very > sort of thorough-going familiarity with the history of poetry that > you yourself disdain to show -- and I suspect it's because you > haven't got it. > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > By the way, why won't you give me a direct answer as to whether > > unmetrical lineated texts that rhyme are poetry or not? Yes or no? ...< > > Ah, the old False Choice Fallacy again, eh, Bob? As I've said before, > it depends on the context. It could be just such bad work by someone > trying to write in meter that we're forced to say it's poetry because > it's attempted but failed writing-in-meter, it could be inadvertent, > as Robert Graves quotes in his and Alan Hodge's book, The Reader Over > Your Shoulder, where he says, in reviewing an old mathematical text: > ? And yet no force, however great, can stretch a cord, however fine, > into a horizontal line that shall be absolutely straight.? > > And yet no force, however great > Can stretch a cord, however fine, > Into a horizontal line > That shall be absolutely straight. > > or it could be, as in my example for Peter Tauber, a satirical mis- > use of meter to make a point. > > But in order to make YOUR point, Bob, you have to show that there is > such a thing as "unmetrical lineated texts that rhyme" in more than > just a null-set abstraction. Give an example of "unmetrical lineated > texts that rhyme" when it's at home, Bob -- that is, in context, and > I'll give you my opinion about whether it's poetry or not. > > What you're asking, it seems, is whether something must exist because > you can name it -- a discussion that famously goes back to the Greeks > who debated about "Nothing", not in a Seinfeldian way, but about > whether by naming "Nothing" they were really talking about > "Something" which contradicted the notion of "Nothing" in the first > place. And the beat goes on: our contemporary Stanislaw Lem wrote a > book called "Cyberiad" in which the entire beginning is just another > take on what can be meant when people speak of "nothing" and > "Nothing", examining it through sci-fi consequences for possible real > consequences. Just because you can say something doesn't make it > true, important, significant, or even consequential. > > Your view of the world seems to be so rigidly categorical, so > unyieldingly black-and-white, so absolutely yes-no, that you don't > seem to recognize that what you see as strict categories others see > as contextually-driven blurry-edged assortments. Come to think of it, > I can start to see, now, why you to reduce words to integer status, > and try to manipulate them according to mathematical operands -- you > are ambiguity-intolerant, or as you'd undoubtedly say, "ambigerant". > Oops, there goes another ambigerant! > > Marcus > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 27 04:50:59 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 03:50:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In-Reply-To: <20050126215913.95223.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It?s hard to have a dialogue with someone who seemingly missed the history of the last hundred years. I?m no expert on Communist tyranny, but it was so ubiquitous and appalling for so many decades I couldn?t help noticing the millions starved and murdered, the imprisoned and murdered poets, the institutionalized dissidents, the murderous cultural revolutions . . . . Were you asleep during that time. Your witty comment about the newly ?crowned? president suggests you also missed some Civics classes somewhere that explained the differences between monarchs and elected leaders limited to two 8 year terms. I?d read the neo-romantic poem you reprint below. It?s not as well written as the translation of the poem celebrating Communist guerrilla?s of Latin America, but it?s not quite as sentimental as that one either. On 1/26/05 3:59 PM, "Rosie Shkodrov" wrote: > Paul, > > > > You sound like an expert of Communist tyranny, and I would be flattered and > honored if you spend a few of your precious minutes (and words) to enlighten > me a bit about this phenomenon. I would be more than glad to hear also > something about your perception about the recent speech by the > Freedom-Expanding-Man, who just got his crown (and who, btw I admire as one of > the greatest neo-romantic poets of our cruel times...) > > > > Here is the greatest piece I have ever read (and how is it even possible not > to fell in love with a person who is capable of such art?): Enjoy! > > > > Roses are red > Violets are blue > Oh my, lump in the bed > How I've missed you. > Roses are redder > Bluer am I > Seeing you kissed by that charming French guy. > The dogs and the cat, they missed you too > Barney's still mad you dropped him, he ate your shoe > The distance, my dear, has been such a barrier > Next time you want an adventure, just land on a carrier. > > > > Oct. 2003 > > > > > > And lastly, I wonder what exactly bothers you in the "Lights"? > > > > Best, > > Rosie > > > > > Paul Lake wrote: >> Shelley was a child of the Enlightenment, and the revolution he advocated >> was for democratic, representative government--then a radical new >> notion--not Communist tyranny. >> >> Paul >> >> >> On 1/26/05 2:10 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: >> >>> > I'd rate Shelley pretty high, and he certainly wrote poetry that refused >>> to >>> > concede that romanticized >>> > "revolution" will not cure the human ills it purports to. But then, I >>> don't >>> > have problems with seriously flawed poetry, any more than I have problems >>> > with seriously flawed humanity. >>> > >>> > >>> > Tad Richards >>> > www.opus40.org >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "Paul Lake" >>> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> > >>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:54 AM >> ! > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" >>> > >>> > >>>> >> On 1/26/05 11:25 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: >>>> >> >>>>> >>> Paul - you can't mean to be suggesting that no poetry inspired by a >>>>> >>> political ideology with which you disagree can be any good? >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Is there good Nazi poetry? >>>> >> >>>> >> Poetry that falsifies reality by not conceding that romanticized >>>> >> "revolution" will cure the human ills it purports to is seriously flawed >>>> >> in >>>> >> my opinion. I also get antsy when Virgil sings the praises of Augustus, >>>> >> if >>>> >> that's any help. >>>> >> >>>> >> You don't cure Fascism with Communism. It's like curing cancer with >>>> AIDS. >>>> >> >>>> >> Good poetry can be written on faulty political underpinnings, but >>>> praises >>>> >> to >>>> >> mass murderers like Stalin and Mao (or mini-mes ! Castro and Che) make me >>>> >> queasy, likewise glorified "revolutions" that result in even greater >>>> >> institutionalized oppression. >>>> >> >>>> >> Yeats said it best: >>>> >> >>>> >> The Great Day >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot! >>>> >> A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot. >>>> >> Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again. >>>> >> The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on. >>>> >> >>>> >> --- >>>> >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > New-Poetry mailing list >>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> > --- >>> > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >>> > >>> > >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jan 27 12:00:32 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:00:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo References: <20050127162326.24294.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002601c50491$b8c98230$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> There was a young poet named Paul Respected by one and by all Till googling "farm sex" Set off his alarm checks And now he's alt.perv.off-the-wall, Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo > I've noticed that most of the hits I've been getting > are from people googling 'farm sex'. Do you think > that if I took my camera to a farm, photographed > animals compulating, perhaps even hiring some girls to > go and perform bizarre sex acts with animals, that > this might be (overall) more profitable than > publishing poetry and art? Or would it degrade me? > Would the public think that I am a pornographer? I > suppose it might be better than being ignored. > > 'There is only one thing worse than being talked about > and that is being nudged off a cliff by a long-legged > tarantula.' > > Salvador O'Dali Wilde > > I think (and I know that this is a controversial > remark) that my website marks the end of the Western, > Classical tradition and the beginning of a new > history. In it, The Iliad, the first, foremost and > possibly greatest work of Western literature has > become nothing more than a figment of the imagination > of the deracinated consciousness of the subject. > Today our TV sets are filled with the pornography of > sentimental denial of the past, in the form of an > Auschwitz memorial, a memorial for an event whose > consequences have been mis-used and abused by an > industry and in the self-serving interests of US > Imperialism and its uncritical support for its client > state, Israel. My website (and I thought it was > saying something of importance and relevance) is > merely a substitute for the most degraded imaginings. > > But, what the Hell. After all, if you can't beat them > join them....mooooooo.... > www.theengine.net > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > http://my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From clitophon at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 12:08:00 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:08:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo In-Reply-To: <002601c50491$b8c98230$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <20050127170800.35152.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> I think you should re-read my previous e-mail but what the Hell, if your going to lie tell the big lie. Consistency, after all, is the hobgoblin of little minds. --- The Old Mole wrote: > There was a young poet named Paul > > Respected by one and by all > > Till googling "farm sex" > > Set off his alarm checks > > And now he's alt.perv.off-the-wall, > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Murphy" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 11:23 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo > > > > I've noticed that most of the hits I've been > getting > > are from people googling 'farm sex'. Do you think > > that if I took my camera to a farm, photographed > > animals compulating, perhaps even hiring some > girls to > > go and perform bizarre sex acts with animals, that > > this might be (overall) more profitable than > > publishing poetry and art? Or would it degrade > me? > > Would the public think that I am a pornographer? > I > > suppose it might be better than being ignored. > > > > 'There is only one thing worse than being talked > about > > and that is being nudged off a cliff by a > long-legged > > tarantula.' > > > > Salvador O'Dali Wilde > > > > I think (and I know that this is a controversial > > remark) that my website marks the end of the > Western, > > Classical tradition and the beginning of a new > > history. In it, The Iliad, the first, foremost > and > > possibly greatest work of Western literature has > > become nothing more than a figment of the > imagination > > of the deracinated consciousness of the subject. > > Today our TV sets are filled with the pornography > of > > sentimental denial of the past, in the form of an > > Auschwitz memorial, a memorial for an event whose > > consequences have been mis-used and abused by an > > industry and in the self-serving interests of US > > Imperialism and its uncritical support for its > client > > state, Israel. My website (and I thought it was > > saying something of importance and relevance) is > > merely a substitute for the most degraded > imaginings. > > > > But, what the Hell. After all, if you can't beat > them > > join them....mooooooo.... > > www.theengine.net > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > > http://my.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 12:19:19 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:19:19 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo Message-ID: <1440464.1106846359409.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Perhaps he should try "form sex." I can imagine two sestinas getting it on. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: The Old Mole Sent: Jan 27, 2005 10:00 AM To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Moooo There was a young poet named Paul Respected by one and by all Till googling "farm sex" Set off his alarm checks And now he's alt.perv.off-the-wall, Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo > I've noticed that most of the hits I've been getting > are from people googling 'farm sex'. Do you think > that if I took my camera to a farm, photographed > animals compulating, perhaps even hiring some girls to > go and perform bizarre sex acts with animals, that > this might be (overall) more profitable than > publishing poetry and art? Or would it degrade me? > Would the public think that I am a pornographer? I > suppose it might be better than being ignored. > > 'There is only one thing worse than being talked about > and that is being nudged off a cliff by a long-legged > tarantula.' > > Salvador O'Dali Wilde > > I think (and I know that this is a controversial > remark) that my website marks the end of the Western, > Classical tradition and the beginning of a new > history. In it, The Iliad, the first, foremost and > possibly greatest work of Western literature has > become nothing more than a figment of the imagination > of the deracinated consciousness of the subject. > Today our TV sets are filled with the pornography of > sentimental denial of the past, in the form of an > Auschwitz memorial, a memorial for an event whose > consequences have been mis-used and abused by an > industry and in the self-serving interests of US > Imperialism and its uncritical support for its client > state, Israel. My website (and I thought it was > saying something of importance and relevance) is > merely a substitute for the most degraded imaginings. > > But, what the Hell. After all, if you can't beat them > join them....mooooooo.... > www.theengine.net > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > http://my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From clitophon at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 12:24:42 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:24:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo In-Reply-To: <1440464.1106846359409.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050127172442.59360.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com> I was trying to make a real comment about something I find rather sad. I didn't expect to be the subject of a Parthian shot. Yes form is fine, the one on top of the other. --- James Cervantes wrote: > Perhaps he should try "form sex." I can imagine two > sestinas getting it on. > > - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Old Mole > Sent: Jan 27, 2005 10:00 AM > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Moooo > > There was a young poet named Paul > > Respected by one and by all > > Till googling "farm sex" > > Set off his alarm checks > > And now he's alt.perv.off-the-wall, > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Murphy" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 11:23 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo > > > > I've noticed that most of the hits I've been > getting > > are from people googling 'farm sex'. Do you think > > that if I took my camera to a farm, photographed > > animals compulating, perhaps even hiring some > girls to > > go and perform bizarre sex acts with animals, that > > this might be (overall) more profitable than > > publishing poetry and art? Or would it degrade > me? > > Would the public think that I am a pornographer? > I > > suppose it might be better than being ignored. > > > > 'There is only one thing worse than being talked > about > > and that is being nudged off a cliff by a > long-legged > > tarantula.' > > > > Salvador O'Dali Wilde > > > > I think (and I know that this is a controversial > > remark) that my website marks the end of the > Western, > > Classical tradition and the beginning of a new > > history. In it, The Iliad, the first, foremost > and > > possibly greatest work of Western literature has > > become nothing more than a figment of the > imagination > > of the deracinated consciousness of the subject. > > Today our TV sets are filled with the pornography > of > > sentimental denial of the past, in the form of an > > Auschwitz memorial, a memorial for an event whose > > consequences have been mis-used and abused by an > > industry and in the self-serving interests of US > > Imperialism and its uncritical support for its > client > > state, Israel. My website (and I thought it was > > saying something of importance and relevance) is > > merely a substitute for the most degraded > imaginings. > > > > But, what the Hell. After all, if you can't beat > them > > join them....mooooooo.... > > www.theengine.net > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > > http://my.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: > http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > RelativeLinks: > http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From clitophon at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 12:25:43 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:25:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo In-Reply-To: <1440464.1106846359409.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050127172543.81004.qmail@web40424.mail.yahoo.com> Epic of Gilgamesh 'I couldn't understand why Gilgamesh wouldn't serve cocktails after 11 PM.' woman - Newcastle Beowulf 'Laugh, I almost cried. In the middle of dinner Beowulf and other warriors drinking and urinating on the fire.' man - Manchester The Iliad 'A very nice drinks cabinet.' man - Liverpool The Bagavad Gita 'The after dinner cabaret was wonderful except for the chariot horses invading the toilet and leaving menure on the mirrors and cosmetics.' woman - Glasgow --- James Cervantes wrote: > Perhaps he should try "form sex." I can imagine two > sestinas getting it on. > > - Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Old Mole > Sent: Jan 27, 2005 10:00 AM > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Moooo > > There was a young poet named Paul > > Respected by one and by all > > Till googling "farm sex" > > Set off his alarm checks > > And now he's alt.perv.off-the-wall, > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Murphy" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 11:23 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Moooo > > > > I've noticed that most of the hits I've been > getting > > are from people googling 'farm sex'. Do you think > > that if I took my camera to a farm, photographed > > animals compulating, perhaps even hiring some > girls to > > go and perform bizarre sex acts with animals, that > > this might be (overall) more profitable than > > publishing poetry and art? Or would it degrade > me? > > Would the public think that I am a pornographer? > I > > suppose it might be better than being ignored. > > > > 'There is only one thing worse than being talked > about > > and that is being nudged off a cliff by a > long-legged > > tarantula.' > > > > Salvador O'Dali Wilde > > > > I think (and I know that this is a controversial > > remark) that my website marks the end of the > Western, > > Classical tradition and the beginning of a new > > history. In it, The Iliad, the first, foremost > and > > possibly greatest work of Western literature has > > become nothing more than a figment of the > imagination > > of the deracinated consciousness of the subject. > > Today our TV sets are filled with the pornography > of > > sentimental denial of the past, in the form of an > > Auschwitz memorial, a memorial for an event whose > > consequences have been mis-used and abused by an > > industry and in the self-serving interests of US > > Imperialism and its uncritical support for its > client > > state, Israel. My website (and I thought it was > > saying something of importance and relevance) is > > merely a substitute for the most degraded > imaginings. > > > > But, what the Hell. After all, if you can't beat > them > > join them....mooooooo.... > > www.theengine.net > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > > http://my.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: > http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > RelativeLinks: > http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From shkodrov at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 14:47:19 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:47:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050127194719.47961.qmail@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> The sad part, Paul, is that I couldn't miss it. What is even sadder is that I had to live in it for about 35 years (and counting). Why is it sad? Because I don't see too many people to USE the history, but I see quite too many who willingly ABUSE it. Speaking of the dissidents, there are enough of them who are still alive. Why don't you try to find what they have to say lately? Any comments on Havel? Speaking about democracy, monarchy, etc... you may not be aware, but there is a new creature out there -- a Communist Monarchy. (This is how we call our political theater these days -- with an ex-socialist as a president and the ex-king as a prime minister. They are doing quite well together, as I can see, in the new Democratic state of BG.) >>It?s not as well written as the translation of the poem celebrating Communist guerrilla?s of Latin America, but it?s not quite as sentimental as that one either.<< What IS it then? (more -- bc) Rosie Paul Lake wrote: It?s hard to have a dialogue with someone who seemingly missed the history of the last hundred years. I?m no expert on Communist tyranny, but it was so ubiquitous and appalling for so many decades I couldn?t help noticing the millions starved and murdered, the imprisoned and murdered poets, the institutionalized dissidents, the murderous cultural revolutions . . . . Were you asleep during that time. Your witty comment about the newly ?crowned? president suggests you also missed some Civics classes somewhere that explained the differences between monarchs and elected leaders limited to two 8 year terms. I?d read the neo-romantic poem you reprint below. It?s not as well written as the translation of the poem celebrating Communist guerrilla?s of Latin America, but it?s not quite as sentimental as that one either. On 1/26/05 3:59 PM, "Rosie Shkodrov" wrote: Paul, You sound like an expert of Communist tyranny, and I would be flattered and honored if you spend a few of your precious minutes (and words) to enlighten me a bit about this phenomenon. I would be more than glad to hear also something about your perception about the recent speech by the Freedom-Expanding-Man, who just got his crown (and who, btw I admire as one of the greatest neo-romantic poets of our cruel times...) Here is the greatest piece I have ever read (and how is it even possible not to fell in love with a person who is capable of such art?): Enjoy! Roses are red Violets are blue Oh my, lump in the bed How I've missed you. Roses are redder Bluer am I Seeing you kissed by that charming French guy. The dogs and the cat, they missed you too Barney's still mad you dropped him, he ate your shoe The distance, my dear, has been such a barrier Next time you want an adventure, just land on a carrier. Oct. 2003 And lastly, I wonder what exactly bothers you in the "Lights"? Best, Rosie Paul Lake wrote: Shelley was a child of the Enlightenment, and the revolution he advocated was for democratic, representative government--then a radical new notion--not Communist tyranny. Paul On 1/26/05 2:10 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > I'd rate Shelley pretty high, and he certainly wrote poetry that refused to > concede that romanticized > "revolution" will not cure the human ills it purports to. But then, I don't > have problems with seriously flawed poetry, any more than I have problems > with seriously flawed humanity. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lake" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:54 AM ! > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" > > >> On 1/26/05 11:25 AM, "The Old Mole" wrote: >> >>> Paul - you can't mean to be suggesting that no poetry inspired by a >>> political ideology with which you disagree can be any good? >> >> >> Is there good Nazi poetry? >> >> Poetry that falsifies reality by not conceding that romanticized >> "revolution" will cure the human ills it purports to is seriously flawed >> in >> my opinion. I also get antsy when Virgil sings the praises of Augustus, >> if >> that's any help. >> >> You don't cure Fascism with Communism. It's like curing cancer with AIDS. >> >> Good poetry can be written on faulty political underpinnings, but praises >> to >> mass murderers like Stalin and Mao (or mini-mes ! Castro and Che) make me >> queasy, likewise glorified "revolutions" that result in even greater >> institutionalized oppression. >> >> Yeats said it best: >> >> The Great Day >> >> >> Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot! >> A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot. >> Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again. >> The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on. >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 27 08:01:28 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:01:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" In-Reply-To: <20050127194719.47961.qmail@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good point, Rosie. I do wish I knew what some of the freed former dissidents are now saying. I know that things are still bad in Russia as Putin takes the country further from democracy, but I haven ?t kept up very well in politics in the post-Soviet era. Before the fall of the Berlin wall, I used to belong to Amnesty International, and when they sent members the list of jailed dissidents and where to write to complain, I?d make it my business to write to help get the poets out of jail. I can no longer even remember the name of a woman poet who was freed shortly after the letter-writing campaign began, just how glad I was that I?d written a letter and that she was let out. I haven?t kept up with Havel?s recent writings or statements, but I do know that he was a champion of freedom before and for some time after the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe. Human nature being what it is, I?m not surprised that the former Soviet states are still suffering through political changes, not all of them toward freedom and democracy. Best of luck, Paul On 1/27/05 1:47 PM, "Rosie Shkodrov" wrote: > The sad part, Paul, is that I couldn't miss it. What is even sadder is that I > had to live in it for about 35 years (and counting). Why is it sad? Because I > don't see too many people to USE the history, but I see quite too many who > willingly ABUSE it. > > > > Speaking of the dissidents, there are enough of them who are still alive. Why > don't you try to find what they have to say lately? Any comments on Havel? > > > > Speaking about democracy, monarchy, etc... you may not be aware, but there is > a new creature out there -- a Communist Monarchy. (This is how we call our > political theater these days -- with an ex-socialist as a president and the > ex-king as a prime minister. They are doing quite well together, as I can see, > in the new Democratic state of BG.) > > > > > >>> >>It?s not as well written as the translation of the poem celebrating >>> Communist guerrilla?s of Latin America, but it?s not quite as sentimental as >>> that one either.<< > > > > What IS it then? > > > > > > (more -- bc) > Rosie > > Paul Lake wrote: >> It?s hard to have a dialogue with someone who seemingly missed the history of >> the last hundred years. I?m no expert on Communist tyranny, but it was so >> ubiquitous and appalling for so many decades I couldn?t help noticing the >> millions starved and murdered, the imprisoned and murdered poets, the >> institutionalized dissidents, the murderous cultural revolutions . . . . Were >> you asleep during that time. Your witty comment about the newly ?crowned? >> president suggests you also missed some Civics classes somewhere that >> explained the differences between monarchs and elected leaders limited to two >> 8 year terms. I?d read the neo-romantic poem you reprint below. It?s not as >> well written as the translation of the poem celebrating Communist guerrilla?s >> of Latin America, but it?s not quite as sentimental as that one either. >> >> >> >> >> >> On 1/26/05 3! :59 PM, "Rosie Shkodrov" wrote: >> >>> Paul, >>> >>> >>> >>> You sound like an expert of Communist tyranny, and I would be flattered and >>> honored if you spend a few of your precious minutes (and words) to enlighten >>> me a bit about this phenomenon. I would be more than glad to hear also >>> something about your perception about the recent speech by the >>> Freedom-Expanding-Man, who just got his crown (and who, btw I admire as one >>> of the greatest neo-romantic poets of our cruel times...) >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is the greatest piece I have ever read (and how is it even possible not >>> to fell in love with a person who is capable of such art?): Enjoy! >>> >>> >>> >>> Roses are red >>> Violets are blue >>> Oh my, lump in the bed >>> How I've missed you. >>> Roses are redder >>> Bluer am I >>> Seeing you kissed by that charming French guy. >>> The dogs and the cat, they missed you too >>> Barney's still mad you dropped him, he ate your shoe >>> The distance, my dear, has been such a barrier >>> N! ext time you want an adventure, just land on a carrier. >>> >>> >>> >>> Oct. 2003 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> And lastly, I wonder what exactly bothers you in the "Lights"? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Rosie >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Paul Lake wrote: >>>> Shelley was a child of the Enlightenment, and the revolution he advocated >>>> was for democratic, representative government--then a radical new >>>> notion--not Communist tyranny. >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/26/05 2:10 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: >>>> >>>>> > I'd rate Shelley pretty high, and he certainly wrote poetry that refused >>>>> to >>>>> > concede that romanticized >>>>> > "revolution" will not cure the human ills it purports to. But then, I >>>>> don't >>>>> > have problems with seriously flawed poetry, any more than I have >>>>> problems >>>>> > with seriously flawed humanity. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Tad Richards >>>>> > www.opus40.org >>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> > From: "Paul Lake" >>>>> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>>>> > >>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:54 AM >>>> ! > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ernesto Cardenal, "Lights" >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> >> On 1/26/05 11:25 AM, "The Old M! ole" wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>> Paul - you can't mean to be suggesting that no poetry inspired by a >>>>>>> >>> political ideology with which you disagree can be any good? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Is there good Nazi poetry? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Poetry that falsifies reality by not conceding that romanticized >>>>>> >> "revolution" will cure the human ills it purports to is seriously >>>>>> flawed >>>>>> >> in >>>>>> >> my opinion. I also get antsy when Virgil sings the praises of >>>>>> Augustus, >>>>>> >> if >>>>>> >> that's any help. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> You don't cure Fascism with Communism. It's like curing cancer with >>>>>> AIDS. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Good poetry can be written on faulty political underpinnings, but >>>>>> praises >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> >> mass murderers like Stalin and Mao (or mini-mes ! Castro and Che) make me >>>>>> >> queasy, likewise glorified "revolutions" that result in even greater >>>>>> >> institutionalized oppression. >>>> ! >> >>>>>> >> Yeats said it best: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> The Great Day >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot! >>>>>> >> A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot. >>>>>> >> Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again. >>>>>> >> The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> --- >>>>>> >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> > --- >>>>> > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> >>>> --- >>>> [This E-mail scan! ned for viruses by Declude Virus] >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Jan 27 15:36:31 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:36:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday to Mozart Message-ID: <027001c504af$e3299bf0$81ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> dedicated to Mozart's Birthday till Midnight Buffalo - Toronto time on Classical 94.5/WNED click top right on Listen Online: http://www.wned.org/default.asp Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 15:54:27 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:54:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Other voices heard from Message-ID: <002201c504b2$641ae0a0$fb2ced04@computer> { Poets and literary critics { have offered serious and playful definitions throughout history; { but all are subjective to a great degree. Here are a few that have been rattling around in my inbox: "Poetry proves again and again that any single overall theory of anything doesn't work. Poetry is always the cat concert under the window of the room in which the official version of reality is being written." - Charles Simic, ~A Fly in the Soup~ "It is not rhyming and versing that maketh poetry. One may be a poet without versing, and a versifyer without poetry." - Philip Sidney, ~Apologie for Poetrie~ "What is poetry? Why, Sir, it is much easier to say what it is not. We all know what light is, but it is not easy to tell what it is." - Samuel Johnson ~Boswell's Life~ "The question of what poetry communicates, if anything, has been largely forced upon us by the advent of 'modern' poetry. Some of that poetry is admittedly highly difficult - a very great deal of it is bound to appear difficult to the reader of conventional reading habits, even in spite of the fact - actually, in many cases, because of the fact - that he is a professor of literature. - Cleanth Brooks ~The Well-Wrought Urn: Studies in the Structure of Poetry~ Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 16:19:01 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:19:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Other voices heard from In-Reply-To: <002201c504b2$641ae0a0$fb2ced04@computer> Message-ID: <20050127211901.97190.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com> Incoming!!! Jeff --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > > { Poets and literary critics > { have offered serious and playful definitions > throughout history; > { but all are subjective to a great degree. > > Here are a few that have been rattling around in my > inbox: > > "Poetry proves again and again that any single > overall theory of > anything doesn't work. Poetry is always the cat > concert under the > window of the room in which the official version of > reality is being > written." - Charles Simic, ~A Fly in the Soup~ > > "It is not rhyming and versing that maketh poetry. > One may be a poet > without versing, and a versifyer without poetry." - > Philip Sidney, > ~Apologie for Poetrie~ > > "What is poetry? Why, Sir, it is much easier to say > what it is not. > We all know what light is, but it is not easy to > tell what it is." - > Samuel Johnson ~Boswell's Life~ > > "The question of what poetry communicates, if > anything, has been > largely forced upon us by the advent of 'modern' > poetry. Some of > that poetry is admittedly highly difficult - a very > great deal of it > is bound to appear difficult to the reader of > conventional reading > habits, even in spite of the fact - actually, in > many cases, because > of the fact - that he is a professor of literature. > - Cleanth Brooks > ~The Well-Wrought Urn: Studies in the Structure of > Poetry~ > > Hal Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 27 16:19:14 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:19:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry for beginners Message-ID: <78.6b5f7393.2f2ab4d2@aol.com> http://books.guardian.co.uk/poetry/features/0,12887,1399153,00.html Poetry for beginners Could Fifty Strong, an anthology of 50 poems 'chosen by teenagers for teenagers', be the answer for teachers hoping to inspire their students? Sarah Crown investigates, with help from students-turned-reviewers Isabel Blake and Simon Bell For most of us though, our first taste of poetry is less inspiring. School curriculums are generally based on a heady mix of Shakespearean sonnets and the "What passing-bells for those who die as cattle?" school of poems that led Blackadder's squadron commander Lord Flashheart to declare "I'm sick of this damn war: the blood, the noise, the endless poetry.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jan 27 16:32:50 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:32:50 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry for beginners Message-ID: <191.37a74637.2f2ab802@cs.com> In a message dated 1/27/2005 3:22:05 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > School curriculums are generally based on a heady mix of Shakespearean > sonnets and the "What passing-bells for those who die as cattle?" school of poems > that led Blackadder's squadron commander Lord Flashheart to declare "I'm > sick of this damn war: the blood, the noise, the endless poetry.? In England, mebbe so. In American, check out the contents of most high school English textbooks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jan 27 16:38:42 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:38:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry for beginners References: <78.6b5f7393.2f2ab4d2@aol.com> Message-ID: <002401c504b8$9565fdb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I kinda reject the idea that there's a "What passing-bells for those who die as cattle?" school of poems, though I love the "Blackadder" line. One problem with teaching poetry in high school is that high school, not unreasonably, has a strong text of socialization, and poetry doesn't. So high school poetry texts tend to say, "You should grow up to be responsible citizens, and look, these poets think so too!" So you kinda have to duck and cover around the notion that "Upon Julia's Clothes" basically has the same theme as "Porky's." Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 4:19 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry for beginners http://books.guardian.co.uk/poetry/features/0,12887,1399153,00.html Poetry for beginners Could Fifty Strong, an anthology of 50 poems 'chosen by teenagers for teenagers', be the answer for teachers hoping to inspire their students? Sarah Crown investigates, with help from students-turned-reviewers Isabel Blake and Simon Bell For most of us though, our first taste of poetry is less inspiring. School curriculums are generally based on a heady mix of Shakespearean sonnets and the "What passing-bells for those who die as cattle?" school of poems that led Blackadder's squadron commander Lord Flashheart to declare "I'm sick of this damn war: the blood, the noise, the endless poetry.? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Jan 27 16:39:57 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:39:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Other voices heard from References: <002201c504b2$641ae0a0$fb2ced04@computer> Message-ID: <002e01c504b8$c1b67160$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> These are great. Tad serving the five-county mosquito control district Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:54 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Other voices heard from > > { Poets and literary critics > { have offered serious and playful definitions throughout history; > { but all are subjective to a great degree. > > Here are a few that have been rattling around in my inbox: > > "Poetry proves again and again that any single overall theory of > anything doesn't work. Poetry is always the cat concert under the > window of the room in which the official version of reality is being > written." - Charles Simic, ~A Fly in the Soup~ > > "It is not rhyming and versing that maketh poetry. One may be a poet > without versing, and a versifyer without poetry." - Philip Sidney, > ~Apologie for Poetrie~ > > "What is poetry? Why, Sir, it is much easier to say what it is not. > We all know what light is, but it is not easy to tell what it is." - > Samuel Johnson ~Boswell's Life~ > > "The question of what poetry communicates, if anything, has been > largely forced upon us by the advent of 'modern' poetry. Some of > that poetry is admittedly highly difficult - a very great deal of it > is bound to appear difficult to the reader of conventional reading > habits, even in spite of the fact - actually, in many cases, because > of the fact - that he is a professor of literature. - Cleanth Brooks > ~The Well-Wrought Urn: Studies in the Structure of Poetry~ > > Hal Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Thu Jan 27 17:29:34 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:29:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic question Message-ID: <007101c504bf$afcd9e40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Did Charles Simic always know English, or did he only learn it after arriving in America? Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jan 27 17:50:22 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:50:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic question Message-ID: <2b.6b74ba8c.2f2aca2e@cs.com> When Simic was fifteen, his mother finally arranged for the family to travel to Paris. After a year spent studying English in night school and attending French public schools during the day, Simic sailed for America and a reunion with his father. He entered the United States at New York City and then moved with his family to Chicago, where he enrolled in high school. In a suburban school with caring teachers and motivated students, Simic began to take new interest in his courses, especially literature. Contemporary Authors -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 27 18:47:46 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:47:46 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] meter follow-ups References: <41F80ADD.7554.2482FE@localhost><005301c5045c$52628da0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1106835288.41f8f758d5e0a@webmail.ukonline.net><008401c5047c$106cf8c0$d2309b51@Robin> <1106843492.41f9176412f64@webmail.ukonline.net> Message-ID: <006d01c504ca$9ad54460$d18f9a51@Robin> From: > On any account the Holy Sonnets are original, but I can think of one earlier > religious sonnet, Shakespeare's (I can't remember exactly, but it's roughly > 148) "Poor soul the centre of my sinful earth". There must have been others. 146. But it doesn't mention God. Certainly there were "serious" sonnets before Donne (even some by Petrarch himself!), but characteristically (I think) not *overtly* religious, and (like Petrarch and Shakespeare) embedded in predominantly erotic frames or sequences. 'Noli me tangere', for Caesar's I am, And wild for to hold though I seem tame. > I don't agree with what you said about Langland and modern pronunciation not > affecting his meter. Modern pronuciation of words beginning with wr- or kn- > would make a mess of the alliterative scheme. Also (though I can't blame you > for not knowing this, since it was only realized about twenty years ago and is > in fact one of my modest claims to fame) Langland adhered to a metrical rule > that every line must end with has a feminine (un-accented) syllable. e.g. > > In a somere sesoun || whan soft'e was the sonn'e > > Modern spelling or modern pronunciation, suppressing the sound of final > -e, would distort that element of the meter. Ah ... Working backwards (and I realise I'm well out of my depth here) isn't there an argument that the final unaccented e, by Chaucer's time (and thus Langland's) was already archaic/literary? That, given the different linguistic registers they were working with, would impact on the pronounciation of Langland. But I'm way beyond my competence by now, though I'd love to hear more (perhaps backchannel, as this is becoming just a trifle specialised now), especially as I (and this may be inertia on my part) find it difficult to *hear* "In a somere sesoun || whan soft'e was the sonn'e". And if soft'e and sonn'e, why not somer'e? I had the same problem, having been introduced to Chaucer via Skeat's "Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote", in coming to terms with Robertson2 (and onwards) where we have: "Whan that Aprill with his shoures soote". :-( Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 19:00:51 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:00:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Free verse in the WetWorld References: <41F8A717.32351.A8F445@localhost> <8680734.1106843315928.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <026f01c504cc$6ec6a9c0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > On Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 08:33AM, Marcus Bales > wrote: > >>I think you're wrong, here, Bob -- I think they will accept that the >>wackos who've hijacked poetry _call_ unmetrical lineated texts >>"poetry", but it's just lineated prose to them. Ask them. Even after >>being beaten up intellectually and emotionally for years, even >>decades, in the US educational system, most people will still look at >>unmetrical lineated texts (not to mention "mathemaku"!) and ask "Why >>is that poetry?" >> > > Even though I'm one of the folks that says it _is_ poetry, that's > certainly my experience with people older than about 30 outside English > departments -- engineers, sheetrockers, drummers, programmers, roofers, > sysadmins, and bartenders. > > Younger people, though -- I've got 2 girls, 13 and 15, and they've been > thoroughly taught that poetry is just deep feelings, however worded. Yuck. > Wordsworth has a lot to answer for. I agree. People who know absolutely nothing about literature don't know what poetry is. The same people will ask why a Jackson Pollock painting is art, etc. But there are also a lot of people who know little or nothing about literature who do accept anything as poetry, and they include people over 30. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 19:28:05 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:28:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost> Message-ID: <02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I suspect James will let us make remarks that are exclusively poetry-related (poetry&freeverse-related) to each other, Marcus. We'll see. I backchannelled to Robin that I really didn't think the romantics did not use received forms and techniques. I asked him what his view was. I really don't know. I don't think new subject matter very innovative, but maybe sometimes. What's received, what new? Well, in form and technique, which is all I've been talking about--or all I've been trying to talk about--I think it fairly clear in most cases. Blank verse when rhymed verse had been done by two or more generations of poets, is the first one I can think of--but I don't know poetry before 1550 or so, and I don't know non-English-speaking poetry enough to say anything about it. No rhyme versus rhyme seems a difference in kind; three-beat lines versus four-beat lines don't. I think the next clear innovation in technique was free verse: no meter versus meter. That introduced organic form, the first really significant innovation in form. I'm sure there were previous innovations in metrical forms, but I don't know much about their history. Surrealistic effects and the jump-cut were technical innovations. Combining visual elements with verbal in poetry was another. Received techniques and forms are simply techniques and forms that have been around a generation or more. The Iowa plaintext form, for intstance. Rhyme. I would say what I call rim-rhyme was a technical innovation of Owen's. (No, it is not near-rhyme.) I think it would be immensely profitable if we had a serious thread in which people nominated innovations in poetic techniques and forms, dating them and supplying background. It'd be the kind of thing a discussion group like this would be perfect for. I love to hear some knowledgeable language poet tell us what technical innovations he believe language poets have been responsible for, for instance. But I doubt such a thread would go anywhere. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 27 20:05:39 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:05:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! Message-ID: In a message dated 1/27/2005 7:28:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > I suspect James will let us make remarks that are exclusively > poetry-related > (poetry&freeverse-related) to each other, Marcus. We'll see. > Bob, you know my only problem with you and Marcus is that you two don't know when to break off and go to neutral corners. You're like a couple of punch-drunk palookas locked together, neither really hitting or hurting the other, but each still reaching out to grab hold or to throw a weak body shot. Or to shift metaphors, it's like watching two lovers locked in a frenetic embrace on a public park bench. The passer-by can only mutter, "Get a room." (Or a blog) Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 27 20:37:12 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:37:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: Message-ID: <03c101c504d9$e43b40f0$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I suspect James will let us make remarks that are exclusively poetry-related (poetry&freeverse-related) to each other, Marcus. We'll see. Bob, you know my only problem with you and Marcus is that you two don't know when to break off and go to neutral corners. You're like a couple of punch-drunk palookas locked together, neither really hitting or hurting the other, but each still reaching out to grab hold or to throw a weak body shot. Or to shift metaphors, it's like watching two lovers locked in a frenetic embrace on a public park bench. The passer-by can only mutter, "Get a room." (Or a blog) Finnegan Well, I won't go into all that I think make Marcus/Bob brawls annoying to most people, but I hope you agree that mostly what does are the veerings from the discussion of poetry and/or poetics into the knowledge and motives of one's opponents. This latter is what I carefully avoided in my post to Marcus that you are responding to, and which I hope you thought okay. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Jan 27 21:06:21 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:06:21 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! (blank verse) References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost> <02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <011801c504dd$f6e985f0$d18f9a51@Robin> > What's received, what new? Well, in form and technique, which is all I've > been talking about--or all I've been trying to talk about--I think it fairly > clear in most cases. Blank verse when rhymed verse had been done by two or > more generations of poets, is the first one I can think of-- Just to flesh-out Bob's comment on blank verse, as it's a case both curious and clear. Effectively, rhymed iambic pentameter in English begins with Chaucer in the 1380s. (Not the first English iambics -- _The Owl and the Nightingale_ was earlier, but that was octosyllabic.) The first unrhymed iambic pentameter poem in English was Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey's "translation" [scare quotes] of Virgil's Aeneid. Post-1517, which was when Surrey was birthed. Pre-1547, which was when Surrey was executed. So there are about 150 years from rhymed iambic pentameter to blank verse. But ... The rewards of the sin of plagiarism ... Surrey invented blank verse by the simple expedient of knocking the rhymes off Gavin Douglas's (d. 1522) Scots translation of Virgil. {Bloody English -- steal the teeth out your mouth when your back's turned.} Mostly (to leap across years) unrhymed iambic pentameter (think Shakespeare et alia) was a dramatic medium [an extension of Surrey's theft?] till Milton, with a Note specifically linking what he was doing to the earlier use of blank verse in English drama, used it in Paradise Lost (first ten-book version published in 1667) for a non-dramatic poem. Then, in a moment of reverse entropy, Dryden replaces the rhymes that Surrey had removed lo these many years ago and rewrites the (unrhymed) Paradise Lost as the (rhymed) _State of Innocence and the Fall of Man_. ... and then goes on to establish (and I'd agree with Marcus here, that there is a good reason for terming the rhyming of Dryden and Pope as "heroic couplet" rather than simple "rhymed iambic pentameter couplet") The Heroic Couplet. Exit blank verse in ignomy. Till Wordsworth in the Prelude [1798-1845, various versions and rewritings] (harking back to Milton) re-establishes it. After that, well ... Everyone's doing it. Wallace Stevens in "Sunday Morning" as a Notable Modernist Example. Robin Hamilton From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jan 28 04:12:26 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:12:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: Message-ID: <00b001c50519$7cfd1810$c9a93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> You do give the idea James, and I would like to add that there are some incredible remarks sometimes, like: "To avoid being accused of going behind his back to insult Marcus..." this was at the beginning of a long row, I usually stop reading after some, take care, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! In a message dated 1/27/2005 7:28:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: I suspect James will let us make remarks that are exclusively poetry-related (poetry&freeverse-related) to each other, Marcus. We'll see. Bob, you know my only problem with you and Marcus is that you two don't know when to break off and go to neutral corners. You're like a couple of punch-drunk palookas locked together, neither really hitting or hurting the other, but each still reaching out to grab hold or to throw a weak body shot. Or to shift metaphors, it's like watching two lovers locked in a frenetic embrace on a public park bench. The passer-by can only mutter, "Get a room." (Or a blog) Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jan 28 06:20:02 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:20:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <00b001c50519$7cfd1810$c9a93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <00cd01c5052b$4fb4aaa0$9eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> But isn't it interesting how many people can't just let Marcus and I get into our wrangles, and say, and believe, "To each his own" without having to chime in with various degrees of disdain? I also find it incredible how many people at New-Poetry think only the unexamined life worth living. Not to say I don't think the Marcus/Bob posts get very dumb at times. --Bob G. From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! You do give the idea James, and I would like to add that there are some incredible remarks sometimes, like: "To avoid being accused of going behind his back to insult Marcus..." this was at the beginning of a long row, I usually stop reading after some, take care, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! In a message dated 1/27/2005 7:28:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: I suspect James will let us make remarks that are exclusively poetry-related (poetry&freeverse-related) to each other, Marcus. We'll see. Bob, you know my only problem with you and Marcus is that you two don't know when to break off and go to neutral corners. You're like a couple of punch-drunk palookas locked together, neither really hitting or hurting the other, but each still reaching out to grab hold or to throw a weak body shot. Or to shift metaphors, it's like watching two lovers locked in a frenetic embrace on a public park bench. The passer-by can only mutter, "Get a room." (Or a blog) Finnegan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jan 28 06:46:06 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:46:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <00b001c50519$7cfd1810$c9a93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> <00cd01c5052b$4fb4aaa0$9eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <003b01c5052e$f3d90dd0$728e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> I am sorry Bob, but earnestly (feeling so Wildian) yours is a private tete-?-tete. I noticed similar ones on other lists and on one occasion I b/c one of the two letting this person know that she was in _love_ with her so much analyzed counterpart. To which she replied that her daughter had already told her so. Which does nothing but confirm. :-) cheers, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! But isn't it interesting how many people can't just let Marcus and I get into our wrangles, and say, and believe, "To each his own" without having to chime in with various degrees of disdain? I also find it incredible how many people at New-Poetry think only the unexamined life worth living. Not to say I don't think the Marcus/Bob posts get very dumb at times. --Bob G. From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! You do give the idea James, and I would like to add that there are some incredible remarks sometimes, like: "To avoid being accused of going behind his back to insult Marcus..." this was at the beginning of a long row, I usually stop reading after some, take care, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Help! In a message dated 1/27/2005 7:28:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: I suspect James will let us make remarks that are exclusively poetry-related (poetry&freeverse-related) to each other, Marcus. We'll see. Bob, you know my only problem with you and Marcus is that you two don't know when to break off and go to neutral corners. You're like a couple of punch-drunk palookas locked together, neither really hitting or hurting the other, but each still reaching out to grab hold or to throw a weak body shot. Or to shift metaphors, it's like watching two lovers locked in a frenetic embrace on a public park bench. The passer-by can only mutter, "Get a room." (Or a blog) Finnegan -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Jan 28 07:34:37 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:34:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! In-Reply-To: <02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <41F9EB0D.2498.2E1CFB@localhost> On 27 Jan 2005 at 19:28, Bob Grumman wrote: > I suspect James will let us make remarks that are exclusively > poetry-related (poetry&freeverse-related) to each other, Marcus. > We'll see.< >From his response to my backchannel question, I doubt it. He seems to be in agreement with whoever posted that our conversations are what hell is going to be like. You'd think we were using bullhorns in a small room, or no one had a delete key. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jan 28 08:02:54 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:02:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help! References: <41F9EB0D.2498.2E1CFB@localhost> Message-ID: <012d01c50539$aee2efb0$9eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 27 Jan 2005 at 19:28, Bob Grumman wrote: >> I suspect James will let us make remarks that are exclusively >> poetry-related (poetry&freeverse-related) to each other, Marcus. >> We'll see.< > >>From his response to my backchannel question, I doubt it. He seems to > be in agreement with whoever posted that our conversations are what > hell is going to be like. You'd think we were using bullhorns in a > small room, or no one had a delete key. > > Marcus Well, we can see. Reply to my "Help!" post of 27 Jan, 7:28, without veering from the subject of poetry or poetry&freeverse as a test. --Bob From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Jan 28 09:39:08 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:39:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brit Speak In-Reply-To: <011801c504dd$f6e985f0$d18f9a51@Robin> Message-ID: <41FA083C.10803.A01B0F@localhost> Found on the Internet: What they say: I'm sure it's my fault What is understood: It is his fault What they mean: It is your fault What they say: I'll bear it in mind What is understood: He will probably do it What they mean: I will do nothing about it What they say: I was a bit disappointed that... What is understood: It doesn't really matter What they mean: I am most upset and cross What they say: By the way/Incidentally What is understood: This is not very important What they mean: The primary purpose of our discussion is... What they say: I hear what you say What is understood: He accepts my point of view What they mean: I disagree and do not want to discuss it any further What they say: Correct me if I'm wrong What is understood: Tell me what you think What they mean: I know I'm right - please don't contradict me What they say: With the greatest respect... What is understood: He is listening to me What they mean: I think you are wrong, or a fool What they say: That is an original point of view What is understood: He likes my ideas What they mean: You must be crazy! What they say: Very interesting What is understood: He is impressed What they mean: I don't agree, or I don't believe you What they say: Quite good What is understood: Quite good What they mean: A bit disappointing From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jan 28 03:58:57 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:58:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rap Prose Message-ID: Here's another little curiosity from The Cyberiad--a bit of prose that sound more like Eminem than Lem. Read it aloud: "Matrix-Scmatrix. Look pall, I'm not just any beast, I'm algorithmic, heuristic and sadistic, fully automatic and autocratic, that means undemocratic, and I've got loads of loops and plenty of feedback so none of that back talk or I'll clap you in irons, that means in the clink with the King, in the brig with the green gig, get me?" Paul Lake (channeling Leminem (page 84 in my paperback version). --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Jan 28 12:32:36 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:32:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? Message-ID: If you think the classics are dead or impractical, take a look at what Norman Lebrecht has to say http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/050120-NL-thugs.html Bad readers of poetry in subway stations might serve to quiet the beasts among us as well, don'cha think? Hal Today's Special Coyote's Engines http://www.poeticinhalation.com/pi_featureartist_Coyote'sEngines.pdf Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Fri Jan 28 12:38:42 2005 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:38:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brit Speak In-Reply-To: <41FA083C.10803.A01B0F@localhost> References: <011801c504dd$f6e985f0$d18f9a51@Robin> <41FA083C.10803.A01B0F@localhost> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050128113556.039a5380@mail.ilstu.edu> Marcus, is this supposed to be funny? Is there a context? Seems like a rather gratuitous and nasty attack on the British to me. Bill Morgan (who is not British) At 08:39 AM 1/28/2005, you wrote: >Found on the Internet: > >What they say: I'm sure it's my fault >What is understood: It is his fault >What they mean: It is your fault > >What they say: I'll bear it in mind >What is understood: He will probably do it >What they mean: I will do nothing about it > >What they say: I was a bit disappointed that... >What is understood: It doesn't really matter >What they mean: I am most upset and cross > >What they say: By the way/Incidentally >What is understood: This is not very important >What they mean: The primary purpose of our discussion is... > >What they say: I hear what you say >What is understood: He accepts my point of view >What they mean: I disagree and do not want to discuss it any further > >What they say: Correct me if I'm wrong >What is understood: Tell me what you think >What they mean: I know I'm right - please don't contradict me > >What they say: With the greatest respect... >What is understood: He is listening to me >What they mean: I think you are wrong, or a fool > >What they say: That is an original point of view >What is understood: He likes my ideas >What they mean: You must be crazy! > >What they say: Very interesting >What is understood: He is impressed >What they mean: I don't agree, or I don't believe you > >What they say: Quite good >What is understood: Quite good >What they mean: A bit disappointing > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tad at opus40.org Fri Jan 28 12:40:04 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:40:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question Message-ID: <001201c50560$68d53650$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Trying to think of other American poets who would fit the category of immigrants writing in a second language who are also steeped in the American experience. Nabokov - not a poet - but Lolita is very American and also very much an outsider's view - much like Peter Sellers' American accent as Quilty in the movie. OK, I'm officially rambling now. Anyone have any thoughts? Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Jan 28 12:43:37 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:43:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? References: Message-ID: <001d01c50560$e84718e0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Would it work on droogs? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 12:32 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? > > If you think the classics are dead or impractical, take a look at > what Norman Lebrecht has to say > > http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/050120-NL-thugs.html > > Bad readers of poetry in subway stations might serve to quiet > the beasts among us as well, don'cha think? > > Hal > > Today's Special > > Coyote's Engines > > http://www.poeticinhalation.com/pi_featureartist_Coyote'sEngines.pdf > > Halvard Johnson > halvard at earthlink.net > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jan 28 12:55:23 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:55:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question Message-ID: <19c.2db803b4.2f2bd68b@cs.com> In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:43:31 AM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > Trying to think of other American poets who would fit the category of > immigrants writing in a second language who are also steeped in the American > experience. Nabokov - not a poet - but Lolita is very American and also very much > an outsider's view - much like Peter Sellers' American accent as Quilty in > the movie. OK, I'm officially rambling now. Anyone have any thoughts? > > Nabokov didn't concentrate on poetry, but "Pale Fire" is pretty good, I think. Julia Alvarez comes to mind, as does Shirley Geok-lin Lim. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jan 28 13:02:35 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:02:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question In-Reply-To: <19c.2db803b4.2f2bd68b@cs.com> Message-ID: on 1/28/05 11:55 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:43:31 AM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Trying to think of other American poets who would fit the category of immigrants writing in a second language who are also steeped in the American experience. Nabokov - not a poet - but Lolita is very American and also very much an outsider's view - much like Peter Sellers' American accent as Quilty in the movie. OK, I'm officially rambling now. Anyone have any thoughts? Nabokov didn't concentrate on poetry, but "Pale Fire" is pretty good, I think. Julia Alvarez comes to mind, as does Shirley Geok-lin Lim. _______________________________________________ English wasn't Li-Young Lee's first language, was it? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Jan 28 13:02:31 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:02:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? References: Message-ID: <014801c50563$89d891a0$728e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> Thank you Halvard, I will have to remember this paragraph, from next year in Italy they are cutting down subjects like History of Art, I will have to check if they will do also with Music, I might also paste this on my blog, take care, Anny The remedy is so obvious it scarcely bears mention. Consider this: which country achieved the best Year 10 results in science and mathematics last year? Not by the ever-malleable standards of British examination boards but by the impartial Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), assessing quarter of a million pupils in 40 countries. Finland is the answer. Yes, Finland, with a population the size of Scotland?s and an impenetrable language. What are the Finns doing right? Every child in Finland is given an instrument to play from the first day at school. They learn to read notes on stave before letters on page. They spend hours at drawing and drama. The result is a society of with few tensions and profound culture. Finnish Radio broadcasts in Latin once a week. Finnish railways do not need to play Sibelius, except for pleasure. QED. From: "Halvard Johnson" Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 6:32 PM > > If you think the classics are dead or impractical, take a look at > what Norman Lebrecht has to say > > http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/050120-NL-thugs.html > > Bad readers of poetry in subway stations might serve to quiet > the beasts among us as well, don'cha think? > > Hal > > Today's Special > > Coyote's Engines > http://www.poeticinhalation.com/pi_featureartist_Coyote'sEngines.pdf > > Halvard Johnson > halvard at earthlink.net > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jan 28 13:38:07 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:38:07 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brit Speak In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050128113556.039a5380@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: Oh? I (British) took it to be the hermeneutics of computer technical support folk :P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Morgan > Sent: 28 January 2005 17:39 > To: marcus at designerglass.com; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry > News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Brit Speak > > Marcus, is this supposed to be funny? Is there a context? > Seems like a rather gratuitous and nasty attack on the British to me. > > Bill Morgan > (who is not > British) > > At 08:39 AM 1/28/2005, you wrote: > >Found on the Internet: > > > >What they say: I'm sure it's my fault > >What is understood: It is his fault > >What they mean: It is your fault > > > >What they say: I'll bear it in mind > >What is understood: He will probably do it What they mean: I will do > >nothing about it > > > >What they say: I was a bit disappointed that... > >What is understood: It doesn't really matter What they mean: > I am most > >upset and cross > > > >What they say: By the way/Incidentally > >What is understood: This is not very important What they mean: The > >primary purpose of our discussion is... > > > >What they say: I hear what you say > >What is understood: He accepts my point of view What they mean: I > >disagree and do not want to discuss it any further > > > >What they say: Correct me if I'm wrong > >What is understood: Tell me what you think What they mean: I > know I'm > >right - please don't contradict me > > > >What they say: With the greatest respect... > >What is understood: He is listening to me What they mean: I > think you > >are wrong, or a fool > > > >What they say: That is an original point of view What is > understood: He > >likes my ideas What they mean: You must be crazy! > > > >What they say: Very interesting > >What is understood: He is impressed > >What they mean: I don't agree, or I don't believe you > > > >What they say: Quite good > >What is understood: Quite good > >What they mean: A bit disappointing > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jan 28 13:55:02 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:55:02 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? In-Reply-To: <001d01c50560$e84718e0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: It just occurred to me to wonder whether the reading of poetry would have a similar calming effect? P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of The Old Mole > Sent: 28 January 2005 17:44 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? > > Would it work on droogs? > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Halvard Johnson" > To: "New-Poetry" > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 12:32 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? > > > > > > If you think the classics are dead or impractical, take a look at > > what Norman Lebrecht has to say > > > > http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/050120-NL-thugs.html > > > > Bad readers of poetry in subway stations might serve to quiet > > the beasts among us as well, don'cha think? > > > > Hal > > > > Today's Special > > > > Coyote's Engines > > > > http://www.poeticinhalation.com/pi_featureartist_Coyote'sEngines.pdf > > > > Halvard Johnson > > halvard at earthlink.net > > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jan 28 14:28:49 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:28:49 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question Message-ID: In a message dated 1/28/2005 12:03:03 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > English wasn't Li-Young Lee's first language, was it? Nor his second. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Jan 28 14:35:14 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:35:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question References: Message-ID: <002401c50570$7fb6f560$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Another Simic questionIt's striking how few there are. Julia Alvarez was actually born here - family moved back to the Dominican Republic, then back here when she was ten. Is Simic unique in writing essentially as an American, not as an immigrant? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question on 1/28/05 11:55 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:43:31 AM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: Trying to think of other American poets who would fit the category of immigrants writing in a second language who are also steeped in the American experience. Nabokov - not a poet - but Lolita is very American and also very much an outsider's view - much like Peter Sellers' American accent as Quilty in the movie. OK, I'm officially rambling now. Anyone have any thoughts? Nabokov didn't concentrate on poetry, but "Pale Fire" is pretty good, I think. Julia Alvarez comes to mind, as does Shirley Geok-lin Lim. _______________________________________________ English wasn't Li-Young Lee's first language, was it? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Jan 28 14:37:07 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:37:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question References: Message-ID: <003c01c50570$c5b533b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> It actually wasn't Simic's second, either, was it? I think French came in between. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 2:28 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question In a message dated 1/28/2005 12:03:03 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: English wasn't Li-Young Lee's first language, was it? Nor his second. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Jan 28 14:38:31 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:38:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? References: Message-ID: <004001c50570$f54e1ba0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Not if you believe Donald Justice: "I don't happen to think that poetry is-or can be-very 'musical.' It's a figure of speech, basically. My God, how I've heard the term misused and abused! That may be how the study of music affected me-to make me less tolerant of the kind of nonsense uttered on this score. Some even go so far as to speak of the melody of poetry. But the fact is that poetry has no melody, which involves pitch.'Musical' when applied to poetry seems to mean approximately what 'poetic' means when applied to music." Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Cudmore" To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:55 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? > It just occurred to me to wonder whether the reading of poetry would have > a > similar calming effect? > > P > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of The Old Mole >> Sent: 28 January 2005 17:44 >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? >> >> Would it work on droogs? >> >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Halvard Johnson" >> To: "New-Poetry" >> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 12:32 PM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? >> >> >> > >> > If you think the classics are dead or impractical, take a look at >> > what Norman Lebrecht has to say >> > >> > http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/050120-NL-thugs.html >> > >> > Bad readers of poetry in subway stations might serve to quiet >> > the beasts among us as well, don'cha think? >> > >> > Hal >> > >> > Today's Special >> > >> > Coyote's Engines >> > >> > http://www.poeticinhalation.com/pi_featureartist_Coyote'sEngines.pdf >> > >> > Halvard Johnson >> > halvard at earthlink.net >> > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From lattaj at umich.edu Fri Jan 28 14:40:17 2005 From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:40:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question In-Reply-To: <002401c50570$7fb6f560$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <002401c50570$7fb6f560$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Andrei Codrescu, Anselm Hollo On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, The Old Mole wrote: > Another Simic questionIt's striking how few there are. > > Julia Alvarez was actually born here - family moved back to the Dominican Republic, then back here when she was ten. > > Is Simic unique in writing essentially as an American, not as an immigrant? > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Graham > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:02 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question > > > on 1/28/05 11:55 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:43:31 AM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > Trying to think of other American poets who would fit the category of immigrants writing in a second language who are also steeped in the American experience. Nabokov - not a poet - but Lolita is very American and also very much an outsider's view - much like Peter Sellers' American accent as Quilty in the movie. OK, I'm officially rambling now. Anyone have any thoughts? > > > Nabokov didn't concentrate on poetry, but "Pale Fire" is pretty good, I think. Julia Alvarez comes to mind, as does Shirley Geok-lin Lim. > _______________________________________________ > > > English wasn't Li-Young Lee's first language, was it? > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jan 28 07:49:53 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:49:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What about Rhina Espaillat? On 1/28/05 1:40 PM, "John Latta" wrote: > Andrei Codrescu, Anselm Hollo > > > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, The Old Mole wrote: > >> Another Simic questionIt's striking how few there are. >> >> Julia Alvarez was actually born here - family moved back to the Dominican >> Republic, then back here when she was ten. >> >> Is Simic unique in writing essentially as an American, not as an immigrant? >> >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Graham >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:02 PM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question >> >> >> on 1/28/05 11:55 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: >> >> >> In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:43:31 AM Central Standard Time, >> tad at opus40.org writes: >> Trying to think of other American poets who would fit the category of >> immigrants writing in a second language who are also steeped in the American >> experience. Nabokov - not a poet - but Lolita is very American and also very >> much an outsider's view - much like Peter Sellers' American accent as Quilty >> in the movie. OK, I'm officially rambling now. Anyone have any thoughts? >> >> >> Nabokov didn't concentrate on poetry, but "Pale Fire" is pretty good, I >> think. Julia Alvarez comes to mind, as does Shirley Geok-lin Lim. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> English wasn't Li-Young Lee's first language, was it? >> >> >> >> ==================================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> Poetry Library: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> ==================================================== >> >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------->> - >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From tad at opus40.org Fri Jan 28 15:12:25 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:12:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question References: <002401c50570$7fb6f560$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <004c01c50575$b1c30df0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> John - thanks. I had forgotten Codrescu, didn't know Hollo was an immigrant. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Latta" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question > Andrei Codrescu, Anselm Hollo > > > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, The Old Mole wrote: > >> Another Simic questionIt's striking how few there are. >> >> Julia Alvarez was actually born here - family moved back to the Dominican >> Republic, then back here when she was ten. >> >> Is Simic unique in writing essentially as an American, not as an >> immigrant? >> >> >> Tad Richards >> www.opus40.org >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Graham >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:02 PM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question >> >> >> on 1/28/05 11:55 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: >> >> >> In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:43:31 AM Central Standard Time, >> tad at opus40.org writes: >> Trying to think of other American poets who would fit the category of >> immigrants writing in a second language who are also steeped in the >> American experience. Nabokov - not a poet - but Lolita is very American >> and also very much an outsider's view - much like Peter Sellers' American >> accent as Quilty in the movie. OK, I'm officially rambling now. Anyone >> have any thoughts? >> >> >> Nabokov didn't concentrate on poetry, but "Pale Fire" is pretty good, >> I think. Julia Alvarez comes to mind, as does Shirley Geok-lin Lim. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> English wasn't Li-Young Lee's first language, was it? >> >> >> >> ==================================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> Poetry Library: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> ==================================================== >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Jan 28 15:15:57 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:15:57 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? In-Reply-To: <004001c50570$f54e1ba0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: I don't believe him, as it happens: I think he's being over-literal (or rather, perhaps, superficial) in his interpretation of the word 'music', and anyway, I was thinking of poetry as poetry (i.e. having a relationship with 'normal' language in terms of communicativeness), not as ear-candy (though the candy factor may part of the ensemble, to be sure). I remembered, after posting the previous post, a story of George Melly's: he claimed on one occasion to have rebuffed muggers by reciting surrealist poetry! P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of The Old Mole > Sent: 28 January 2005 19:39 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? > > Not if you believe Donald Justice: "I don't happen to think > that poetry is-or can be-very 'musical.' It's a figure of > speech, basically. My God, how I've heard the term misused > and abused! That may be how the study of music affected me-to > make me less tolerant of the kind of nonsense uttered on this > score. Some even go so far as to speak of the melody of > poetry. But the fact is that poetry has no melody, which > involves pitch.'Musical' when applied to poetry seems to mean > approximately what 'poetic' means when applied to music." > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Cudmore" > To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views'" > > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:55 PM > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? > > > > It just occurred to me to wonder whether the reading of > poetry would have > > a > > similar calming effect? > > > > P > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > The Old Mole > >> Sent: 28 January 2005 17:44 > >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? > >> > >> Would it work on droogs? > >> > >> > >> Tad Richards > >> www.opus40.org > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Halvard Johnson" > >> To: "New-Poetry" > >> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 12:32 PM > >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? > >> > >> > >> > > >> > If you think the classics are dead or impractical, take a look at > >> > what Norman Lebrecht has to say > >> > > >> > http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/050120-NL-thugs.html > >> > > >> > Bad readers of poetry in subway stations might serve to quiet > >> > the beasts among us as well, don'cha think? > >> > > >> > Hal > >> > > >> > Today's Special > >> > > >> > Coyote's Engines > >> > > >> > > http://www.poeticinhalation.com/pi_featureartist_Coyote'sEngines.pdf > >> > > >> > Halvard Johnson > >> > halvard at earthlink.net > >> > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > New-Poetry mailing list > >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Jan 28 15:21:11 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:21:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? In-Reply-To: <004001c50570$f54e1ba0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: { Not if you believe Donald Justice: "I don't happen to think that poetry { is-or can be-very 'musical.' It's a figure of speech, basically. My God, how { I've heard the term misused and abused! That may be how the study of music { affected me-to make me less tolerant of the kind of nonsense uttered on this { score. Some even go so far as to speak of the melody of poetry. But the fact { is that poetry has no melody, which involves pitch.'Musical' when applied to { poetry seems to mean approximately what 'poetic' means when applied to { music." And speech doesn't involve pitch? Well, excuse me. Seems to me that the less poetry has to "say," the less it's "about" something or anything, the more it's like music. Not to say that music and poetry don't, at times, try to ape each other. Hal From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jan 28 08:49:54 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:49:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rap Prose Message-ID: Here's another little curiosity from The Cyberiad--a bit of prose that sounds more like Eminem than Lem. Read it aloud: "Matrix-Scmatrix. Look pal, I'm not just any beast, I'm algorithmic, heuristic and sadistic, fully automatic and autocratic, that means undemocratic, and I've got loads of loops and plenty of feedback so none of that back talk or I'll clap you in irons, that means in the clink with the King, in the brig with the green gig, get me?" Paul Lake (channeling Lem-inem (page 84 in my paperback version). --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From anna_beth_young at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 20:52:14 2005 From: anna_beth_young at yahoo.com (Anna Young) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:52:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Authors whose first language is not English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050129015214.46871.qmail@web51307.mail.yahoo.com> Here are some authors whose first language is not English: Ilya Kaminsky -- came to US only recently, did not speak English at all before that. Writes very beautiful and musical poems. Joseph Condrad -- a great, great writer. I am not sure how young he was when he learned english, however. Joseph Brodsky -- learned English in his twenties/thirties; translated himself very unevenly, but has several rather interesting poems written originally in English, "For My Daughter" comes to mind, or his Elegy for Robert Lowell. By the way, some of the best (to my mind) translations of Milosz into English, were done by Milosz himself (the the last page in the Collected, where they list translators) What about Dionizio Martinez? Not sure if his first language is English or not Anna --- John Latta wrote: > Andrei Codrescu, Anselm Hollo > > > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, The Old Mole wrote: > > > Another Simic questionIt's striking how few there > are. > > > > Julia Alvarez was actually born here - family > moved back to the Dominican Republic, then back here > when she was ten. > > > > Is Simic unique in writing essentially as an > American, not as an immigrant? > > > > > > Tad Richards > > www.opus40.org > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David Graham > > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > Views > > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:02 PM > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question > > > > > > on 1/28/05 11:55 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at > Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:43:31 AM > Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > > Trying to think of other American poets who > would fit the category of immigrants writing in a > second language who are also steeped in the American > experience. Nabokov - not a poet - but Lolita is > very American and also very much an outsider's view > - much like Peter Sellers' American accent as Quilty > in the movie. OK, I'm officially rambling now. > Anyone have any thoughts? > > > > > > Nabokov didn't concentrate on poetry, but > "Pale Fire" is pretty good, I think. Julia Alvarez > comes to mind, as does Shirley Geok-lin Lim. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > English wasn't Li-Young Lee's first language, > was it? > > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Jan 28 23:40:02 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:40:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Larry Eigner, 6 poems Message-ID: fine grass the fog wind the bridge road cloud pool the earth birds diving ===== birds in a tree garden shout before the rain move ===== the air a wall traffic like still birds in the ear they perch too imagine history ====== so many words and then voice storm now up hill the air the sun after two days glances wing on the scene ===== Death in his eyes is the sky where you sight stars rain at last the sunset spring blurs ===== small snow jagged was the wind the wide sun patches on a roof --Larry Eigner *Six Poems* [Portland, Oregon: Wine Press, 1967] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 29 00:57:43 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 06:57:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Authors whose first language is not English References: <20050129015214.46871.qmail@web51307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501c505c7$74062e00$55a93252@yourpk9x5fuc06> Yes, also Katia Kapovich and her husband Philip Nikolayev, they edit Fulcrum Mary de Rachewiltz, daughter of Ezra Pound, her mother tongue is German, and masters Italian and English perfectly, I feature them on the Poets' Corner Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna Young" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 2:52 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Authors whose first language is not English > Here are some authors whose first language is not > English: > > Ilya Kaminsky -- came to US only recently, did not > speak English at all before that. Writes very > beautiful and musical poems. > > Joseph Condrad -- a great, great writer. I am not sure > how young he was when he learned english, however. > > Joseph Brodsky -- learned English in his > twenties/thirties; translated himself very unevenly, > but has several rather interesting poems written > originally in English, "For My Daughter" comes to > mind, or his Elegy for Robert Lowell. > > By the way, some of the best (to my mind) translations > of Milosz into English, were done by Milosz himself > (the the last page in the Collected, where they list > translators) > > What about Dionizio Martinez? Not sure if his first > language is English or not > > Anna > > > --- John Latta wrote: > > > Andrei Codrescu, Anselm Hollo > > > > > > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, The Old Mole wrote: > > > > > Another Simic questionIt's striking how few there > > are. > > > > > > Julia Alvarez was actually born here - family > > moved back to the Dominican Republic, then back here > > when she was ten. > > > > > > Is Simic unique in writing essentially as an > > American, not as an immigrant? > > > > > > > > > Tad Richards > > > www.opus40.org > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: David Graham > > > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & > > Views > > > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:02 PM > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Simic question > > > > > > > > > on 1/28/05 11:55 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at > > Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:43:31 AM > > Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > > > Trying to think of other American poets who > > would fit the category of immigrants writing in a > > second language who are also steeped in the American > > experience. Nabokov - not a poet - but Lolita is > > very American and also very much an outsider's view > > - much like Peter Sellers' American accent as Quilty > > in the movie. OK, I'm officially rambling now. > > Anyone have any thoughts? > > > > > > > > > Nabokov didn't concentrate on poetry, but > > "Pale Fire" is pretty good, I think. Julia Alvarez > > comes to mind, as does Shirley Geok-lin Lim. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > English wasn't Li-Young Lee's first language, > > was it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > David Graham > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > Poetry Library: > > > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 29 01:00:17 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 07:00:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Authors whose first language is not English References: <20050129015214.46871.qmail@web51307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002101c505c7$cf4fee40$55a93252@yourpk9x5fuc06> And among the young ones, also Jeet Thayil, Indian, he just contributed to the Corner, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Jan 29 08:06:47 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 06:06:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Classical music dead? References: Message-ID: <41FB8A67.DD998B95@earthlink.net> Make that a double Well, excuse me. Let's take the word "melody," for example. Say it into a mike connected to an oscilloscope and you'll see three different pitches, "meh-low-dee." Unless, of course, one speaks in a monotone (how about that word?!). - Jim someone wrote: > > > { Not if you believe Donald Justice: "I don't happen to think that poetry > { is-or can be-very 'musical.' It's a figure of speech, basically. My God, how > { I've heard the term misused and abused! That may be how the study of music > { affected me-to make me less tolerant of the kind of nonsense uttered on this > { score. Some even go so far as to speak of the melody of poetry. But the fact > { is that poetry has no melody, which involves pitch.'Musical' when applied to > { poetry seems to mean approximately what 'poetic' means when applied to > { music." and Hal responded: > > And speech doesn't involve pitch? Well, excuse me. > > Seems to me that the less poetry has to "say," the less it's "about" something > or anything, the more it's like music. Not to say that music and poetry don't, > at times, try to ape each other. > > Hal > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tad at opus40.org Sat Jan 29 08:37:09 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:37:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Catching Up With Helen References: <41FB8A67.DD998B95@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000601c50607$a3fb72b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> http://chronicle.com/free/v51/i21/21a01401.htm How Helen Vendler got where she is, and why she ain't going much further. Tad Richards www.opus40.org From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 29 09:11:50 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:11:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Catching Up With Helen References: <41FB8A67.DD998B95@earthlink.net> <000601c50607$a3fb72b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00c701c5060c$7be84140$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > How Helen Vendler got where she is, and why she ain't going much further. > > > Tad Richards I thought the following beautifully demonstrative of Wilshberyianism: "Complaints about the limits of Ms. Vendler's responsiveness are much overstated, says Steve Burt, her former student and an assistant professor of English at Macalester College. Citing her collection of reviews and essays Soul Says (Belknap/Harvard University Press, 1995), he notes that it "contains admiring essays about Allen Ginsberg, James Schuyler, Gary Snyder, James Merrill, Rita Dove, August Kleinzahler, and Adrienne Rich -- poets who collectively have almost nothing in common but their American passports. I don't think it's a failing that she hasn't addressed every subgenre and subtradition under the sun." 7 poets not a single one of whom can be charged with using a poetic device that wasn't in wide use fifty or more years ago. --Bob G. From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat Jan 29 12:48:17 2005 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:48:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pardon the Repetition In-Reply-To: <200501291700.j0TH05Al003438@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050129094034.00c14228@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:00 PM 1/29/2005 -0500, Our Bob wrote: >7 poets not a single one of whom can be charged with using a poetic device >that wasn't in wide use fifty or more years ago. > >--Bob G. > >26 words and not one of them starts with an "e" a "q" or a "z"! (with only >one poozly numeral) bArRy (desperately striving to loom up as nEw) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 29 13:20:45 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:20:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pardon the Repetition References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050129094034.00c14228@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <012201c5062f$409f52e0$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Yes, Barry, whenever a stasguard says something as stupid as Vendler's puppy did, I repeat my boilerplate. Keep in mind that I'm only one person using my boilerplate while you stasguards have dozens using yours. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Spacks To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pardon the Repetition At 12:00 PM 1/29/2005 -0500, Our Bob wrote: 7 poets not a single one of whom can be charged with using a poetic device that wasn't in wide use fifty or more years ago. --Bob G. 26 words and not one of them starts with an "e" a "q" or a "z"! (with only one poozly numeral) bArRy (desperately striving to loom up as nEw) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jan 29 14:13:51 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:13:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chekhov Message-ID: It's Chekhov's birthday, and that calls for a poem, don't you think? Chocolates Once some people were visiting Chekhov. While they made remarks about his genius the Master fidgeted. Finally he said, "Do you like chocolates?" They were astonished, and silent. He repeated the question, whereupon one lady plucked up her courage and murmured shyly, "Yes." "Tell me," he said, leaning forward, light glinting from his spectacles, "what kind?" The light, sweet chocolate or the dark, bitter kind?" The conversation became general. They spoke of cherry centers, of almonds and Brazil nuts. Losing their inhibitions they interrupted one another. For people may not know what they think about politics in the Balkans, or the vexed question of men and women, but everyone has a definite opinion about the flavor of shredded coconut. Finally someone spoke of chocolates filled with liqueur, and everyone, even the author of Uncle Vanya, was at a loss for words. As they were leaving he stood by the door and took their hands. In the coach returning to Petersburg they agreed that it had been a most *unusual* conversation. --Louis Simpson. Caviare at the Funeral. Franklin Watts, 1980. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jan 29 14:18:46 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:18:46 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost> <02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin> Bob said: Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 12:28 AM > I think it would be immensely profitable if we had a serious thread in which > people nominated innovations in poetic techniques and forms, dating them and > supplying background. It'd be the kind of thing a discussion group like > this would be perfect for. I love to hear some knowledgeable language poet > tell us what technical innovations he believe language poets have been > responsible for, for instance. But I doubt such a thread would go anywhere. Concrete Poetry (visual poetry; sound poetry) In Glasgow (and beyond that, Scotland and Brazil) in the mid-sixties, the flavour-of-the-month for innovation was Concrete Poetry. [I'll stick to what I know -- sixties Glasgow -- and leave it to others to flesh-out the wider chronological and geographical spread of the movement.] The two major Scottish Names were Edwin Morgan [_The Second Life_ (1968?)] and Ian Hamilton Finlay [no single citeable text]. Both had worked previously in more orthodox forms. The best of Eddie's work begins with the poems published in _The Second Life_ (1968) [both Concrete and line poetry in the same book but on different coloured pages]; IHF had published line poems in _The Dancers Inherit the Party_ (1960), and there's _Glasgow Beasts, An' A Burd_ (1961) [premature Scottish urban language poetry -- cf. {forthcoming} Innovations #2]. Consequences 1. Forty Years On, while Concrete Poetry and its extensions are still around, they aren't seen as the central phenomenon of the time. [In Glasgow, this was partly because it was much more *fun* fighting in the Language Wars over urban language poetry.] Consequences 2. Both poets moved on/away from Concrete Poetry per se -- IHF to Little Sparta and something approximating more to plastic art than poetry, Edwin Morgan feeding developments from Concrete Poetry (particularly sound poetry) back into his line poetry -- _From Glasgow to Saturn_ (1973). Edwin Morgan is (un)arguably Scotland's greatest living poet, but this rating *isn't* based on his Concrete (innovatory) works, and his texts show progressively less and less influence of his Concrete period. So (a red rag to Bob), there's a concrete [snigger] example of an innovatory movement which extended beyond a single poet (and country) but nevertheless is now seen as marginal, compared to work being done, sometimes by the same writers, in more conventional form. Though (another red rag, to Marcus this time) how much of Edwin Morgan's post-Conceret poetry could be considered "metrical" ... This is a deliberately narrow focus -- I'd be really interested to see what's the perspective on this from elsewhere and elsewhen. Forthcoming: Innovations (2) -- Scottish Urban Language Poetry Innovations (3) -- Confessional Poetry Robin Hamilton From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Jan 29 14:19:04 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:19:04 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chekhov References: Message-ID: <010101c50637$657b1420$48ac3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> ChekhovThe poem is much better than the movie, _Le chocolat_ with which I associated it, with Juliette Binoche, Judi Dench, and a poor Johnny Depp (much better in other movies). And Happy Birthday to Chekhov, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 8:13 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Chekhov It's Chekhov's birthday, and that calls for a poem, don't you think? Chocolates Once some people were visiting Chekhov. While they made remarks about his genius the Master fidgeted. Finally he said, "Do you like chocolates?" They were astonished, and silent. He repeated the question, whereupon one lady plucked up her courage and murmured shyly, "Yes." "Tell me," he said, leaning forward, light glinting from his spectacles, "what kind?" The light, sweet chocolate or the dark, bitter kind?" The conversation became general. They spoke of cherry centers, of almonds and Brazil nuts. Losing their inhibitions they interrupted one another. For people may not know what they think about politics in the Balkans, or the vexed question of men and women, but everyone has a definite opinion about the flavor of shredded coconut. Finally someone spoke of chocolates filled with liqueur, and everyone, even the author of Uncle Vanya, was at a loss for words. As they were leaving he stood by the door and took their hands. In the coach returning to Petersburg they agreed that it had been a most *unusual* conversation. --Louis Simpson. Caviare at the Funeral. Franklin Watts, 1980. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Jan 29 14:30:19 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:30:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ginsberg's "White Shroud" Message-ID: If anyone happens to have the title poem of Allen Ginsberg's book *White Shroud* on disk, I'd be most grateful for a back-channel. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 29 15:22:11 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:22:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] African American National Biography seeking contributors Message-ID: <159.49941593.2f2d4a73@aol.com> From: African American National Biography [mailto:aanb at fas.harvard.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:42 PM To: aanb at fas.harvard.edu Subject: Dear Colleague, The African American National Biography is actively seeking contributors. Will you please distribute this Call to Contributors to any faculty, graduate students, researchers, or independent writers who may be interested? Also attached is a printable MS Word document containing the same information. Please feel free to post it and/or forward it to those whom you think may appreciate receiving it. Thank you very much for your help with this groundbreaking and extensive project. Sincerely, John Bollard, Executive Editor African American National Biography W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research Harvard University 69 Dunster Street Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 617-496-9547 aanb at fas.harvard.edu The editors are seeking contributors to write biographical entries for the African American National Biography, a joint project of the W. E. B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research at Harvard University and Oxford University Press. The largest African American Studies project ever undertaken, covering a broader range of African American lives than ever before, the African American National Biography will present history through a mosaic of the lives of 10,000 individuals, some known throughout the world and others all but forgotten, illuminating the abiding influence of African Americans on the life of this nation through the immediacy of individual experience. Our goal is to include not only great and famous African Americans, but a selection of lives that will be representative of the scope of African American e xperience. We are commissioning articles on African Americans in all fields, from all periods of North American history, and from all stations of life?activists, writers and journalists, slaves, sharecroppers, domestic workers, laborers, musicians, politicians, government workers, judges, lawyers, ministers, preachers, and other religious workers, educators, athletes, sports figures, actors, directors, filmmakers, doctors, nurses, artists, photographers, business people, entrepreneurs, military personnel, scientists, philanthropists, dancers, frontiersmen, cowboys, inventors, aviators, astronauts, explorers, legendary figures, and more. While there will be a limited number of entries for living people in AANB, our current priority is to find writers for dead subjects in order to fill in the historical record. We also welcome suggestions for subjects whose names do not presently appear on our lists. AANB entries are typically 750 to 1,500 words in length. Each article will be signed by the author and will include a brief bibliography. Authors will receive an honorarium, typically $75-$150, based on the contracted length of each entry. Names for which biographies are needed and an application to write can be accessed on the AANB Web site, at www.fas.harvard.edu/~aanb. The first publication of the project, African American Lives (Oxford University Press, 2004), a collection of 600 biographies of notable African Americans, was published in April 2004 and, in the words of the Publishers Weekly reviewer, "will undoubtedly become a standard in the field." Author and critic Julius Lester has called it "a definitive book." Editorial Staff African American National Biography W.E.B. Du Bois Institute Harvard University 69 Dunster Street Cambridge, MA 02138 http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~aanb/ email: aanb at fas.harvard.edu John K. Bollard Executive Editor Tel: 617-496-9547 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 29 15:32:36 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:32:36 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pardon the Repetition Message-ID: In a message dated 1/29/2005 1:21:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > I repeat my boilerplate. Wouldn't any boilerplate be anathematic to an innovator, such as yourself? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Sat Jan 29 16:16:32 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:16:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Chekhov In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050129211632.26127.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> And for a quote too, right? "I am afraid of those who will look for tendentiousness between the lines and who are determined to see me either as a liberal or a conservative. I am neither a liberal nor a conservative, neither a gradualist nor a monk nor an indifferentist. I would like to be nothing more than a free artist, and I regret that God did not give me the gift to be one. I hate falseness and coercion in all their forms . . . . Pharisaism, stupidity and arbitrariness reign not merely in merchants' houses and police stations: I see them in science, in literature, among the young. That is why I have no particular passion for either policemen or butchers or scientists or writers or the young. I consider brand-names and labels a prejudice. My holy of holies is the human body, health, intelligence, talent, inspiration, love, and absolute freedom, freedom from force and falseness in whatever form they express themselves. That's the platform I'd subscribe to if I were a great artist." A. P. Chekhov David Graham wrote: It's Chekhov's birthday, and that calls for a poem, don't you think? Chocolates Once some people were visiting Chekhov. While they made remarks about his genius the Master fidgeted. Finally he said, "Do you like chocolates?" They were astonished, and silent. He repeated the question, whereupon one lady plucked up her courage and murmured shyly, "Yes." "Tell me," he said, leaning forward, light glinting from his spectacles, "what kind?" The light, sweet chocolate or the dark, bitter kind?" The conversation became general. They spoke of cherry centers, of almonds and Brazil nuts. Losing their inhibitions they interrupted one another. For people may not know what they think about politics in the Balkans, or the vexed question of men and women, but everyone has a definite opinion about the flavor of shredded coconut. Finally someone spoke of chocolates filled with liqueur, and everyone, even the author of Uncle Vanya, was at a loss for words. As they were leaving he stood by the door and took their hands. In the coach returning to Petersburg they agreed that it had been a most *unusual* conversation. --Louis Simpson. Caviare at the Funeral. Franklin Watts, 1980. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 29 16:29:55 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:29:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pardon the Repetition References: Message-ID: <016601c50649$aded8190$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In a message dated 1/29/2005 1:21:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: I repeat my boilerplate. Wouldn't any boilerplate be anathematic to an innovator, such as yourself? Finnegan Come on, James. One of my boilerplates states that innovation is not the only virtue. I'm also on record as liking a whole bunch of poets who do not seem to me to be or have been innovative--and to have written standard poems of all sorts, principally Iowa Plaintext lyrics (though a lot of my Iowa plaintext lyrics do things Vendler wouldn't understand) and conventional haiku. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 29 17:29:28 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:29:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Interesting post, Robin, and I thank you much for your participation, BUT you didn't specify no devices. One that I've named though no one uses my name is the visiophor, or visual element used in a poem as an implicit metaphor (or juxtaphor) for something stated by a verbal element of the poem. One comment back. It's on the following paragraph: > So (a red rag to Bob), there's a concrete [snigger] example of an > innovatory > movement which extended beyond a single poet (and country) but > nevertheless > is now seen as marginal, compared to work being done, sometimes by the > same > writers, in more conventional form. No problem for my argument because concrete poetry is still contemporary--and marginal. My claim is that the concrete/visual poetry school has already produced more poets celebrated in fifty years than the mainstream schools will. It's much more innovative than any previous kind of poetry, so will take longer. Ian Hamilton Finlay already is pretty widely known and respected. Another complication is simply population growth. There are so many poets and kinds of poetry that it's becoming more and more hard to understand all of them enough to evaluate them. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jan 29 19:48:00 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:48:00 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin> <01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005401c50665$598e78e0$ed032cd9@Robin> Bob: > No problem for my argument because concrete poetry is still > contemporary--and marginal. Right. My point entirely. > My claim is that the concrete/visual poetry > school has already produced more poets celebrated in fifty years than the > mainstream schools will. Huh? Name five. > It's much more innovative than any previous kind > of poetry, so will take longer. No, in *itself*, it's a total dead-end, like Imagism. > Ian Hamilton Finlay already is pretty > widely known and respected. Yes, but ... Little Sparta has migrated to the plastic arts -- couthy wee harmless concrete sculptures, but, to be crude. > Another complication is simply population growth. There are so many poets > and kinds of poetry that it's becoming more and more hard to understand all > of them enough to evaluate them. Bob, are you suggesting that simply because there are numerically fewer Scots than the population of Pennsylvania, we should be *ignored*? Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 29 20:44:20 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:44:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin><01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005401c50665$598e78e0$ed032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <02ee01c5066d$37ffcc80$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry > Bob: > >> No problem for my argument because concrete poetry is still >> contemporary--and marginal. > > Right. > > My point entirely. > >> My claim is that the concrete/visual poetry >> school has already produced more poets *who will be*--which I seem to have left out celebrated in fifty years than the >> mainstream schools will. > > Huh? Name five. Not much point since you will probably not have heard of any of them--except Finlaqy, whom I'd include. But here are a few: Scott Helmes, Karl Kempton, John M. Bennett, Kathy Ernst, Marilyn Rosenberg, Bill Keith, John Vieira, John Byrum, our own mIEKAL aND, Geof Huth. (Yeah, I'm naming pals of mine.) >> It's much more innovative than any previous kind >> of poetry, so will take longer. > > No, in *itself*, it's a total dead-end, like Imagism. To each his own, but it's hugely more complex than imagism--which, anyway, I don't consider any kind of dead end. It just changed names. >> Ian Hamilton Finlay already is pretty >> widely known and respected. > > Yes, but ... > > Little Sparta has migrated to the plastic arts -- couthy wee harmless > concrete sculptures, but, to be crude. > >> Another complication is simply population growth. There are so many >> poets >> and kinds of poetry that it's becoming more and more hard to understand > all >> of them enough to evaluate them. > > Bob, are you suggesting that simply because there are numerically fewer > Scots than the population of Pennsylvania, we should be *ignored*? Not that I know of. I was just saying (I thought) that because we have so many different schools of poetry with a lot of people in each of them, the visibilization of any of the odd ones will take longer than it might have in the past. --Bob From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Jan 29 21:04:46 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:04:46 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry In-Reply-To: <02ee01c5066d$37ffcc80$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: > John Byrum, our own mIEKAL aND, Geof Huth. (Yeah, I'm naming > pals of mine.) I confidently predict that, in fifty years' time, folk will still be naming their friends when this kind of question arises. :P From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jan 29 21:16:27 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:16:27 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin><01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005401c50665$598e78e0$ed032cd9@Robin> <02ee01c5066d$37ffcc80$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002e01c50671$b5237c80$e0032cd9@Robin> Bob: > Not much point since you will probably not have heard of any of them--except > Finlaqy, whom I'd include. But here are a few: Scott Helmes, Karl Kempton, > John M. Bennett, Kathy Ernst, Marilyn Rosenberg, Bill Keith, John Vieira, > John Byrum, our own mIEKAL aND, Geof Huth. (Yeah, I'm naming pals of mine.) Well, I suppose this *is* extending it, but you did originally say, "dating them and supplying background". What you've supplied is a list of names. No texts, no dates, no background. > > No, in *itself*, it's a total dead-end, like Imagism. > > To each his own, but it's hugely more complex than imagism--which, anyway, I > don't consider any kind of dead end. It just changed names. Um. Whaur's yir T.E.Hulme the'day? > > Bob, are you suggesting that simply because there are numerically fewer > > Scots than the population of Pennsylvania, we should be *ignored*? > > Not that I know of. I was just saying (I thought) that because we have so > many different schools of poetry with a lot of people in each of them, the > visibilization of any of the odd ones will take longer than it might have in > the past. Bit blah that, Bob. Robin Hamilton (Just to show I'm broad-minded, here's a URL to photos from Little Sparta. A quick google on LS will throw up ever so much much more. http://www.perlesvaus.easynet.co.uk/hippeis/gallery/little_sparta/ Not my scene, candidly, but then, each to their own. R.) From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jan 29 21:57:54 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:57:54 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (2) -- Scottish Urban Language Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin><01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005401c50665$598e78e0$ed032cd9@Robin><02ee01c5066d$37ffcc80$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002e01c50671$b5237c80$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <005201c50677$7f0a3f20$e0032cd9@Robin> .. taster: where it started from: TOM LEONARD (1) THE GOOD THIEF heh jimmy yawright ih stull wayiz urryi ih heh jimmy ma right insane yirra pape ma right insane yirwanny us jimmy see it nyir eyes wanny uz heh heh jimmy lookslik wirgonny miss thi gemm gonny miss thi GEMM jimmy nearly three a cloke thinoo dork init good jobe theyve gote the lights http://www.tomleonard.co.uk/other_publications/six_glasgow_poems.shtml I was there when Tom first read it. Philip Hobsbaum recorded it on a reel-to-real tape recorder. I was the man. I was there. I suffered somewhat. This one is actually *for* Bob Grumman, as it backs-up his sense of innovation. (And, my excuse, there's an odd link to Ian Hamilton Finlay somewhere in the background.) ... but fighting in the Glasgow Language Wars didn't come cheap -- censorship, dropping degree classes, delayed employment, you name it. And what do we have to show for it? Bloody Irvin Welsh and sodding *Edinburgh* novelists. :-( Angels weep territory. Robin Hamilton (Note to the above: There were two stopped-at-the-frontier stigmata: no one EVER used an apostrophe, and no one *ever* used the term "dialect". R.) From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jan 29 22:17:21 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:17:21 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (2) -- Scottish Urban Language Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin><01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005401c50665$598e78e0$ed032cd9@Robin><02ee01c5066d$37ffcc80$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002e01c50671$b5237c80$e0032cd9@Robin> <005201c50677$7f0a3f20$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <002e01c5067a$36dbfa10$e0032cd9@Robin> > ma right insane yirwanny us jimmy ... as a totally irrelevant aside, one of the Catholic/Protestant linguistic markers -- you could tell which side of a housing estate someone was brought up on -- was yin/wan (for English "one") "The Big Yin" was a Prot, "wan ay uz" was a Catholic. The Good Thief was set in the Ibrox (Catholic, soccer) stadium, shortly after they introduced floodlights. Sad but true. ... all so long ago. Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Jan 29 22:37:59 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:37:59 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin> <01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000f01c5067d$18a25e60$e0032cd9@Robin> Bob: >One that I've named though no one uses my > name is the visiophor, or visual element used in a poem as an implicit > metaphor (or juxtaphor) for something stated by a verbal element of the > poem. Is this anything other than George Herbert's "Angels' Wings?" Robin From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jan 29 22:12:10 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:12:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A: Donald Barthelme chases down a deep one-- Message-ID: J. D. O'Hara: What about the moral responsibility of the artist? I take it that you are a responsible artist (as opposed, say, to X, Y, and Z), but all is irony, comic distortion, foreign voices, fragmentation. Where in all this evasion of the straight- forward does responsibility display itself? Barthelme: It's not the straightforward that's being evaded but the too-true. I might fix your eye firmly and announce "Thou shalt not mess around with thy neighbor's wife." You might then nod and say to yourself, quite so. We might then at lunch at the local chili parlor say scurrilous things about X, Y, and Z. But it will not have escaped your notice that my statement has hardly enlarged your cosmos, that I've been in the largest sense, respon- sible to neither art, life, nor adultery. I believe that my every sentence trembles with morality in that each attempts to engage the problematic rather than to present a proposition to which all reasonable men must agree. The en- gagement might very small, a word modifying another word, the substitution of "mess around" for "covet," which undresses adultery a bit. I think the paraphrasable content in art is rather slight--"tiny," as de Kooning puts it. The way things are done is crucial, as the inflection of a voice crucial. The change of em- phasis from the what to the how seems to me to be the major impulse in art since Flaubert, and it's not merely formalism, it's not at all superficial, it's an attempt to reach truth, and a very rigorous one. You don't get, following this path, a moral uni- verse set out in ten propositions, but we already have that. And the attempt is sufficiently skeptical about itself. In this century there's much stress placed not upon what we know but on knowing that our methods are themselves questionable--our Song of Song is the Uncertainty Principle. Also, it's entirely possible to fail to understand or actively mis- understand what an artist is doing. I remember going through a very large Barnett Newman show years ago with Tom Hess and Harold Rosenberg, we used to go to shows after long lunches, those wicked lunches which are no more, and I walked through the show like a certifiable idiot, couldn't understand their enthusiasm. I admired the boldness, the color and so on, but inwardly I was muttering "wallpaper, wallpaper, very fine wallpaper but wallpaper." I was wrong, didn't get the core of Newman's enterprise, what Tom called Newman's effort toward the sublime. Later I began to understand. One doesn't take in Proust or Canada on the basis of a single visit. To return to your question: if I looked you straight in the eye and said, "The beauty of women makes of adultery a serious and painful duty," then we'd have the beginning of a useful statement. --Donald Barthelme interviewed by J. D. O'Hara, 1981 in Donald Barthelme, *Not-Knowing: The Essays and Interviews* [New York: Random House, 1997] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 30 06:38:08 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:38:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry References: Message-ID: <004f01c506c0$2be9b070$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> John Byrum, our own mIEKAL aND, Geof Huth. (Yeah, I'm naming >> pals of mine.) > > I confidently predict that, in fifty years' time, folk will still be > naming > their friends when this kind of question arises. You know, I instantly agreed with you--then I started to think about it and realized that probably would only be partly the case with stasguards--they would name a lot of PBS poets, too. I name no PBS poets. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 30 07:56:48 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 07:56:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin><01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000f01c5067d$18a25e60$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <00c201c506cb$29539b40$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob: > >>One that I've named though no one uses my >> name is the visiophor, or visual element used in a poem as an implicit >> metaphor (or juxtaphor) for something stated by a verbal element of the >> poem. > > Is this anything other than George Herbert's "Angels' Wings?" > > Robin Yes and no. Many visio-poetic devices have predecessors going back to the Egyptians (at least). But they were only isolatedly exploited, and not fully exploited. Moreover, while the visiophor in general is not new, many varieties of visiophors have been invented since Herbert. Visual poetry, of which concrete poetry is generally consider a subset, uses devices other than the visiophor, too. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 30 08:04:47 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:04:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin><01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005401c50665$598e78e0$ed032cd9@Robin><02ee01c5066d$37ffcc80$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002e01c50671$b5237c80$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <00d101c506cc$ad428500$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob: > >> Not much point since you will probably not have heard of any of > them--except >> Finlay, whom I'd include. But here are a few: Scott Helmes, Karl > Kempton, >> John M. Bennett, Kathy Ernst, Marilyn Rosenberg, Bill Keith, John Vieira, >> John Byrum, our own mIEKAL aND, Geof Huth. (Yeah, I'm naming pals of > mine.) > > Well, I suppose this *is* extending it, but you did originally say, > "dating > them and supplying background". Right, but I was just answering your question. The poets named are all contemporaries. (Actually, I see I did date them--I said they were pals of mine; that's background, too, you yo-yo!) > What you've supplied is a list of names. > > No texts, no dates, no background. > >> > No, in *itself*, it's a total dead-end, like Imagism. >> >> To each his own, but it's hugely more complex than imagism--which, >> anyway, > I >> don't consider any kind of dead end. It just changed names. > > Um. > > Whaur's yir T.E.Hulme the'day? Morgan wrote an essay on it, if you're asking who is our Hulme. G. Huth has a blog on it. I've written a lot on it. Dick Higgins wrote on it. Karl Young, too. Others. I think our discussion has cross purposed. I wanted this thread simply to list poetic devices, not to continue the discussion about when the poets of a traditional group produce more lasting figures than a contemporaenous innovative group. I don't think we can consider the visual poets group yet; it's too recent and ongoing. >> > Bob, are you suggesting that simply because there are numerically fewer >> > Scots than the population of Pennsylvania, we should be *ignored*? >> >> Not that I know of. I was just saying (I thought) that because we have >> so >> many different schools of poetry with a lot of people in each of them, >> the >> visibilization of any of the odd ones will take longer than it might have > in >> the past. > > Bit blah that, Bob. > > > Robin Hamilton > > (Just to show I'm broad-minded, here's a URL to photos from Little Sparta. > A quick google on LS will throw up ever so much much more. > > > http://www.perlesvaus.easynet.co.uk/hippeis/gallery/little_sparta/ > > Not my scene, candidly, but then, each to their own. > > R.) From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 30 08:33:33 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:33:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (2) -- Scottish Urban Language Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin><01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005401c50665$598e78e0$ed032cd9@Robin><02ee01c5066d$37ffcc80$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002e01c50671$b5237c80$e0032cd9@Robin> <005201c50677$7f0a3f20$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <00ec01c506d0$4bd9db20$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 9:57 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (2) -- Scottish Urban Language Poetry > .. taster: where it started from: > > TOM LEONARD > > (1) THE GOOD THIEF > > heh jimmy > yawright ih > stull wayiz urryi > ih > > heh jimmy > ma right insane yirra pape > ma right insane yirwanny us jimmy > see it nyir eyes > wanny uz > > heh > > heh jimmy > lookslik wirgonny miss thi gemm > gonny miss thi GEMM jimmy > nearly three a cloke thinoo > > dork init > good jobe theyve gote the lights > > > http://www.tomleonard.co.uk/other_publications/six_glasgow_poems.shtml > > I was there when Tom first read it. > > Philip Hobsbaum recorded it on a reel-to-real tape recorder. > > I was the man. > > I was there. > > I suffered > > somewhat. > > This one is actually *for* Bob Grumman, as it backs-up his sense of > innovation. > > (And, my excuse, there's an odd link to Ian Hamilton Finlay somewhere in > the > background.) > > ... but fighting in the Glasgow Language Wars didn't come cheap -- > censorship, dropping degree classes, delayed employment, you name it. > > And what do we have to show for it? Bloody Irvin Welsh and sodding > *Edinburgh* novelists. > > :-( > > Angels weep territory. > > Robin Hamilton > > (Note to the above: > > There were two stopped-at-the-frontier stigmata: no one EVER used an > apostrophe, and no one *ever* used the term "dialect". > > R.) I like these things, Robin. Not to be pushy, but what was the innovation? Use of slang, the demotic--dialect (whoever used that term)? I do count the use of a new language--like scientific terminology--an innovation, sometimes a significant one. But it's not the use of a new device. More on par with the use of new subject matter, which can also be important and innovative, but not--for me--up there with the use of significant new devices. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 30 09:18:04 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:18:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin><01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005401c50665$598e78e0$ed032cd9@Robin><02ee01c5066d$37ffcc80$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002e01c50671$b5237c80$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <010b01c506d6$83e8fea0$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks, by the way, for the link to Little Sparta, Robin. Looks like a pleasant enough place, but pretty trivial. Less than half the pictures came up, though, so maybe the ones I didn't see are of more interesting works. --Bob G. From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Jan 30 10:11:50 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:11:50 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Little Sparta In-Reply-To: <010b01c506d6$83e8fea0$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Responding to Bob's remark that Little Sparta seems 'trivial', the following is from Scotland on Sunday (one of our National newspapers' Sunday edition), Sun 5 Dec 2004 :P Little Sparta goes a long way in poll on Scotland's greatest art PETER MARTELL TO SOME it is a labour of love that brings symphonic harmony between man and nature. To others it is simply an artistic folly on a bleak Lanarkshire hillside. But Little Sparta, Ian Hamilton Finlay's sculpture garden, has been voted the nation's greatest work of art in a survey of leading art experts. The survey, conducted by Scotland on Sunday, asked 50 gallery directors, art historians, auction houses and artists themselves what they believed to be the most important work of Scottish art. It follows a UK-wide poll conducted in the run-up to this year's Turner Prize, which takes place tomorrow, which was won by Marcel Duchamp's Fountain, the white urinal he signed and put on display in 1917. Each expert was asked to select what they believed to be the three most important works from any period of Scottish art. These were then ranked using a points system. Little Sparta was the clear winner, receiving almost three times as many points as the second placed work of art, Charles Rennie Mackintosh's Glasgow School of Art. In third place was the "skating minister," Sir Henry Raeburn's 19th-century painting of Revd Robert Walker skating on Duddingston Loch, which is hung in the National Gallery of Scotland. Fourth was Sir David Wilkie's Chelsea Pensioners Reading the Gazette of the Battle of Waterloo, painted in 1822, while fifth was Allan Ramsay for his 18th-century portrait of his wife Anne Bayne Ramsay. Other artists, however, were ranked not for specific works but for their general contribution to the art world. So the 80-year-old sculptor Sir Eduardo Paolozzi was ranked sixth and East Lothian painter John Bellany, one of Scotland's most collected contemporary masters, came seventh for the whole body of their work. The neo-classical work of Gavin Hamilton for his sequence of paintings on the Iliad (1764) was eighth, while William McTaggart's 1895 Sailing of the Emigrant Ship was ninth. The artist S J Peploe was nominated in tenth place for his 1905 work, The Black Bottle, in addition to other pieces. The result is a triumph for Finlay, 79, who was born in the Bahamas to Scottish parents but returned to Scotland to study at Glasgow School of Art. During the 1950s he worked in agriculture and began to write poems and plays. In 1966, he moved with his wife into a house, Stonypath, in Dunsyre, 20 miles west of Edinburgh, where they still live today. There he created the landscaped garden with temples, statues, grottoes, glades and a series of urns, columns, monoliths and headstones, many of them inscribed. Named Little Sparta as a reference to Edinburgh's 'status' as the Athens of the North, it now has seven separate areas, an allotment and a section of English parkland. As a whole it has been a model for private gardens across Europe. Iain Gale, the art critic for Scotland on Sunday, said: "Gradually the garden began to take on a special importance for Finlay. "Its theme was the classical tradition, and is avowedly anti-modernist, employing, as has all his art since the 1970s, the language of classical art and architecture to lure his audience in before hitting them with an unexpected punch line." Those who selected the garden as the single most important work of Scottish art of all time include the artist Calum Innes and Amanda Catto, the head of visual art at the Scottish Arts Council. Magnus Linklater, chairman of the Little Sparta Trust, which was set up to conserve and maintain the gardens for the future said he was "absolutely delighted" at the decision. Linklater said: "This is recognition at long last of one of Scotland's greatest artists. Little Sparta is one of Scotland's unknown jewels." Michael Clarke, the director of the National Gallery of Scotland, also selected the garden in his shortlist. He said: "Pilgrimages from around the world are made to Finlay's extraordinary garden. "Hailed as one of the inventors of 'concrete poetry', Finlay's highly pictorial garden, which has been described as a living homage to the classical tradition, is widely regarded as his most important work and has a truly international reputation." Duncan Macmillan, Professor Emeritus of the History of Scottish Art at the University of Edinburgh, said it was "internationally celebrated and influential". Francis Mckee, associate curator at the Centre for Contemporary Arts in Glasgow, said: "I think Little Sparta is a masterpiece, 40 years in the making - a meditation on art and revolution. Perhaps it is the fact that it's so wedded to the landscape gives it such resonance in Scotland. " Art expert Richard Demarco said: "Finlay has turned every single hedge, tree and plant into a work of art involving hundreds of sculptures. It is important because art experts from all over the world have travelled to Lanarkshire to marvel at it." Richard Ingleby, of Edinburgh's Ingleby's Gallery, said: "Taken as a whole, it is the father of 20th-century conceptual art in Scotland. Everything he has done since in any medium anywhere in world links back to Little Sparta and to that simple premise of trying to impose order on chaos, building a classical garden in the middle of nature." But many of the art experts, including James Holloway, the director of the Scottish National Portrait Gallery, nominated Glasgow School of Art which came second. The building, on Renfrew Street, is renowned as a Charles Rennie Mackintosh masterpiece. Completed in 1909, it is a work of outstanding beauty and originality on a difficult sloping site, they said. > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman > Sent: 30 January 2005 14:18 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Innovations (1) -- Concrete Poetry > > Thanks, by the way, for the link to Little Sparta, Robin. > Looks like a pleasant enough place, but pretty trivial. Less > than half the pictures came up, though, so maybe the ones I > didn't see are of more interesting works. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 30 10:49:18 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:49:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Little Sparta References: Message-ID: <012001c506e3$42638b50$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Interesting piece. I would expect Little Sparta to be a great work of art on the basis of what I've seen of Finlay's work, but was responding to the few pictures I saw at the site I went to--such as one of an arrow in a tree labeled "Cupid's Arrow." Of course, any patch of countryside with any sculpture in it would rate high on my list of artworks. I can't say I'm impressed by the lists of works it was competing against. Surely the Scots have created greater works of VISUAL art than those mentioned. They've certainly created greater works of art. Scott's or Stevenson's novels, for instance. The experts didn't impress me, either. --Bob G. > Responding to Bob's remark that Little Sparta seems 'trivial', the > following > is from Scotland on Sunday (one of our National newspapers' Sunday > edition), > Sun 5 Dec 2004 > > :P > > Little Sparta goes a long way in poll on Scotland's greatest art > > PETER MARTELL > > > TO SOME it is a labour of love that brings symphonic harmony between man > and > nature. To others it is simply an artistic folly on a bleak Lanarkshire > hillside. > > But Little Sparta, Ian Hamilton Finlay's sculpture garden, has been voted > the nation's greatest work of art in a survey of leading art experts. > > The survey, conducted by Scotland on Sunday, asked 50 gallery directors, > art > historians, auction houses and artists themselves what they believed to be > the most important work of Scottish art. > > It follows a UK-wide poll conducted in the run-up to this year's Turner > Prize, which takes place tomorrow, which was won by Marcel Duchamp's > Fountain, the white urinal he signed and put on display in 1917. > > Each expert was asked to select what they believed to be the three most > important works from any period of Scottish art. These were then ranked > using a points system. > > Little Sparta was the clear winner, receiving almost three times as many > points as the second placed work of art, Charles Rennie Mackintosh's > Glasgow > School of Art. > > In third place was the "skating minister," Sir Henry Raeburn's > 19th-century > painting of Revd Robert Walker skating on Duddingston Loch, which is hung > in > the National Gallery of Scotland. > > Fourth was Sir David Wilkie's Chelsea Pensioners Reading the Gazette of > the > Battle of Waterloo, painted in 1822, while fifth was Allan Ramsay for his > 18th-century portrait of his wife Anne Bayne Ramsay. > > Other artists, however, were ranked not for specific works but for their > general contribution to the art world. > > So the 80-year-old sculptor Sir Eduardo Paolozzi was ranked sixth and East > Lothian painter John Bellany, one of Scotland's most collected > contemporary > masters, came seventh for the whole body of their work. > > The neo-classical work of Gavin Hamilton for his sequence of paintings on > the Iliad (1764) was eighth, while William McTaggart's 1895 Sailing of the > Emigrant Ship was ninth. > > The artist S J Peploe was nominated in tenth place for his 1905 work, The > Black Bottle, in addition to other pieces. > > The result is a triumph for Finlay, 79, who was born in the Bahamas to > Scottish parents but returned to Scotland to study at Glasgow School of > Art. > > > During the 1950s he worked in agriculture and began to write poems and > plays. In 1966, he moved with his wife into a house, Stonypath, in > Dunsyre, > 20 miles west of Edinburgh, where they still live today. There he created > the landscaped garden with temples, statues, grottoes, glades and a series > of urns, columns, monoliths and headstones, many of them inscribed. > > Named Little Sparta as a reference to Edinburgh's 'status' as the Athens > of > the North, it now has seven separate areas, an allotment and a section of > English parkland. As a whole it has been a model for private gardens > across > Europe. > > Iain Gale, the art critic for Scotland on Sunday, said: "Gradually the > garden began to take on a special importance for Finlay. > > "Its theme was the classical tradition, and is avowedly anti-modernist, > employing, as has all his art since the 1970s, the language of classical > art > and architecture to lure his audience in before hitting them with an > unexpected punch line." > > Those who selected the garden as the single most important work of > Scottish > art of all time include the artist Calum Innes and Amanda Catto, the head > of > visual art at the Scottish Arts Council. > > Magnus Linklater, chairman of the Little Sparta Trust, which was set up to > conserve and maintain the gardens for the future said he was "absolutely > delighted" at the decision. > > Linklater said: "This is recognition at long last of one of Scotland's > greatest artists. Little Sparta is one of Scotland's unknown jewels." > > Michael Clarke, the director of the National Gallery of Scotland, also > selected the garden in his shortlist. He said: "Pilgrimages from around > the > world are made to Finlay's extraordinary garden. > > "Hailed as one of the inventors of 'concrete poetry', Finlay's highly > pictorial garden, which has been described as a living homage to the > classical tradition, is widely regarded as his most important work and has > a > truly international reputation." > > Duncan Macmillan, Professor Emeritus of the History of Scottish Art at the > University of Edinburgh, said it was "internationally celebrated and > influential". > > Francis Mckee, associate curator at the Centre for Contemporary Arts in > Glasgow, said: "I think Little Sparta is a masterpiece, 40 years in the > making - a meditation on art and revolution. Perhaps it is the fact that > it's so wedded to the landscape gives it such resonance in Scotland. " > > Art expert Richard Demarco said: "Finlay has turned every single hedge, > tree > and plant into a work of art involving hundreds of sculptures. It is > important because art experts from all over the world have travelled to > Lanarkshire to marvel at it." > > Richard Ingleby, of Edinburgh's Ingleby's Gallery, said: "Taken as a > whole, > it is the father of 20th-century conceptual art in Scotland. Everything he > has done since in any medium anywhere in world links back to Little Sparta > and to that simple premise of trying to impose order on chaos, building a > classical garden in the middle of nature." > > But many of the art experts, including James Holloway, the director of the > Scottish National Portrait Gallery, nominated Glasgow School of Art which > came second. The building, on Renfrew Street, is renowned as a Charles > Rennie Mackintosh masterpiece. Completed in 1909, it is a work of > outstanding beauty and originality on a difficult sloping site, they said. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Jan 30 11:33:16 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:33:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brautigan Message-ID: I'm reliably informed that it's Richard Brautigan's birthday. Romance I just spent fifteen seconds staring at a Japanese fly: my first. He was standing on a red brick in the Mitsui Building Plaza, enjoying the sun. He didn?t care that I was looking at him. He was cleaning his face. Perhaps he had a date with a beautiful lady fly, his bride to be or maybe just good friends to have lunch a little later in Mitsui Plaza at noon. Tokyo May 17 or 18, 1976 --Richard Brautigan ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From hruggier at localnet.com Sun Jan 30 12:00:07 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:00:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (2) -- Scottish Urban Language Poetry References: <41F8D082.13696.14ABB90@localhost><02c301c504d0$3c82c940$72b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001d01c50637$5b75c560$ed032cd9@Robin><01ea01c50652$01dfdb60$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005401c50665$598e78e0$ed032cd9@Robin><02ee01c5066d$37ffcc80$a4b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002e01c50671$b5237c80$e0032cd9@Robin> <005201c50677$7f0a3f20$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <00be01c506ed$26ecdc00$1db35040@Helen> Slightly hungover following a Burns Night celebration here last night - I understand it. Somewhat. h ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 9:57 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Innovations (2) -- Scottish Urban Language Poetry > .. taster: where it started from: > > TOM LEONARD > > (1) THE GOOD THIEF > > heh jimmy > yawright ih > stull wayiz urryi > ih > > heh jimmy > ma right insane yirra pape > ma right insane yirwanny us jimmy > see it nyir eyes > wanny uz > > heh > > heh jimmy > lookslik wirgonny miss thi gemm > gonny miss thi GEMM jimmy > nearly three a cloke thinoo > > dork init > good jobe theyve gote the lights > > > http://www.tomleonard.co.uk/other_publications/six_glasgow_poems.shtml > > I was there when Tom first read it. > > Philip Hobsbaum recorded it on a reel-to-real tape recorder. > > I was the man. > > I was there. > > I suffered > > somewhat. > > This one is actually *for* Bob Grumman, as it backs-up his sense of > innovation. > > (And, my excuse, there's an odd link to Ian Hamilton Finlay somewhere in > the > background.) > > ... but fighting in the Glasgow Language Wars didn't come cheap -- > censorship, dropping degree classes, delayed employment, you name it. > > And what do we have to show for it? Bloody Irvin Welsh and sodding > *Edinburgh* novelists. > > :-( > > Angels weep territory. > > Robin Hamilton > > (Note to the above: > > There were two stopped-at-the-frontier stigmata: no one EVER used an > apostrophe, and no one *ever* used the term "dialect". > > R.) > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun Jan 30 12:20:06 2005 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:20:06 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Repeat, Repeat Thy Vile Canards Till They S(t)ick In-Reply-To: <200501301501.j0UF1kAl008915@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050130090200.00bd8598@incoming.verizon.net> At 10:01 AM 1/30/2005 -0500, Our Bob the Besmirchopath wrote: > I'm only one person using my boilerplate while you stasguards... Sand to the gears of Bob's Labelizer Machine! (note "lie" lurcking in the lighthhthtning mid-ground of the terminating- termmmm above) Easy, oh easy to forge verbal pins for Others wriggling on the Self-Agrandisizer's wall. -- Barry Chekhov Spacks (freedomopathguard, Omnist, the Auntie-Bob) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From listadmin at wordtechcommunications.com Sat Jan 29 18:03:52 2005 From: listadmin at wordtechcommunications.com (Kevin Walzer) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:03:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WordTech Communications poetry books--announcement of selections Message-ID: WordTech Communications is pleased to announce the following poetry book selections for our coming publishing year: Editions Prize, WordTech Editions Ingrid Wendt, "Surgeonfish" (receives $1,000 prize) Kelley Jean White, "Living in the Heart" Al Maguinness, "Film History" Luisa Igloria, "Trill and Mordent" Jim Brock, "Pictures that Got Small" First Book Prize, Word Press Barbara Crooker, "Radiance" (receives $1,000 prize) Richard Newman "Borrowed Towns" David Cazden, "Moving Picture" Leah Nielsen, "No Magic" Meredith Davies Hadaway, "Fishing Secrets of the Dead" Cherry Grove Series, Cherry Grove Collections Sybill Estess, "Perfect Blue" Elisavietta Ritchie "Awaiting Permission to Land" Roy Bentley, "Far" J.D. Smith, "Settling for Beauty" Judith Montgomery, "Red Jess" These titles will be published in 2005 or early in 2006. Congratulations to the chosen authors and our thanks to those who submitted manuscripts. -- Kevin Walzer, Ph.D. Editor WordTech Communications - A New Paradigm of Poetry http://www.wordtechcommunications.com To unsubscribe from this list, send an e-mail to unsubscribe_poetry at wordtechcommunications.com. From clitophon at yahoo.com Sun Jan 30 12:34:02 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:34:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <002e01c5067a$36dbfa10$e0032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <20050130173402.96477.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> I know this is off topic but can anyone offer me a definition of emotional intelligence? Is Spock in Star Trek an example of someone totally lacking in emotional intelligence? simply putting things constantly in terms of rationality, logical ordering and coherent rules? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 30 12:44:40 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:44:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Little Sparta Message-ID: In a message dated 1/30/2005 10:11:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk writes: > Responding to Bob's remark that Little Sparta seems 'trivial', the > following > is from Scotland on Sunday (one of our National newspapers' Sunday edition), > Sun 5 Dec 2004 > > :P > > Little Sparta goes a long way in poll on Scotland's greatest art > Speaking of Scots who really know how to use the landscape for artistic purpose, I highly recommend this film, if you haven't seen it... http://www.filmforum.com/rivers.html Rivers & Tides: Andy Goldsworthy Working With Time -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Jan 30 12:46:09 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:46:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence Message-ID: <12c.5659f827.2f2e7761@cs.com> In a message dated 1/30/2005 11:34:20 AM Central Standard Time, clitophon at yahoo.com writes: > I know this is off topic but can anyone offer me a > definition of emotional intelligence? > Is Spock in Star Trek an example of someone totally > lacking in emotional intelligence? simply putting > things constantly in terms of rationality, logical > ordering and coherent rules? Spock is half-human, so his Vulcan rationality is always at war with his emotional half, and he makes a big deal of it. Like the rest of us, in other words. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 30 12:54:59 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:54:59 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence Message-ID: <15c.48ff5837.2f2e7973@aol.com> In a message dated 1/30/2005 12:34:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, clitophon at yahoo.com writes: > I know this is off topic but can anyone offer me a > definition of emotional intelligence? > Is Spock in Star Trek an example of someone totally > lacking in emotional intelligence? simply putting > things constantly in terms of rationality, logical > ordering and coherent rules? > As recall there was a Time magazine cover story a few years ago, based on someone's book at the time. It seemed to me to be a repackaging, with some studies to back the thesis, of the concept we often call "people skills." A person's success in any field tied less to what he/she knew about things than what he/she 'knew' (or intuited) about the motivations and desires of people. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Sun Jan 30 12:59:12 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:59:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <20050130173402.96477.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050130175912.82764.qmail@web54606.mail.yahoo.com> There is ongoing discussion about the origins of ?EQ,? but consensus is that the seminal publication was an article called ?Emotional Intelligence? by Peter Salovey and John ?Jack? Mayer in 1990. The article defined EQ as a scientifically testable ?intelligence.? The team has gone on to publish numerous articles, and their definition of EQ has evolved to: ?Emotional intelligence is the ability to perceive emotions; to access and generate emotions so as to assist thought; to understand emotions and emotional knowledge; and to reflectively regulate emotions so as to promote emotional and intellectual growth.? In other words, there are four parts: 1. Perceive or sense emotions, 2. Use emotions to assist thought, 3. Understand emotions, 4. Manage emotions. As their colleague David Caruso writes, ?It is very important to understand that emotional intelligence is not the opposite of intelligence, it is not the triumph of heart over head -- it is the unique intersection of both.? Paul Murphy wrote:I know this is off topic but can anyone offer me a definition of emotional intelligence? Is Spock in Star Trek an example of someone totally lacking in emotional intelligence? simply putting things constantly in terms of rationality, logical ordering and coherent rules? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 30 13:20:15 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:20:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: 'Vision' by Vladimir Holan Message-ID: <79.3e07661c.2f2e7f5f@aol.com> Vision This place, which warned its own remoteness it would turn into a desert, still has a few trees left and few blue tits in them, calling: thorn-in-the-ass, thorn-in-the-ass, thorn-in-the-ass! They're calling to the weary or apathetic human being who is out for a walk holding a book, and while wondering what's for supper, he mumbles: "I never thought like that or felt like that; I never said this!" Socrates, reading Plato? --Vladim?r Holan Mirroring: Selected Poems of Vladim?r Holan, Wesleyan U. Press, 1985, translated by C.G. Hanzlicek & Dana H?bov? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 30 13:20:27 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:20:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Repeat, Repeat Thy Vile Canards Till They S(t)ick References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050130090200.00bd8598@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <016901c506f8$5fc68930$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I'm only one person using my boilerplate while you stasguards... Sand to the gears of Bob's Labelizer Machine! (note "lie" lurcking in the lighthhthtning mid-ground of the terminating- termmmm above) Easy, oh easy to forge verbal pins for Others wriggling on the Self-Agrandisizer's wall. -- Barry Chekhov Spacks (freedomopathguard, Omnist, the Auntie-Bob) As you so ably demonstrate, while making no attempt to refute what I said. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Jan 30 13:34:50 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:34:50 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <20050130173402.96477.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Check out Aaron Sloman (Google, or, e.g., http://streebgreebling.blogspot.com/2005/01/legends-in-ai-aaron-sloman.html) an artificial intelligence guy who has speculated on the parameters of artificial emotion. :P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Murphy > Sent: 30 January 2005 17:34 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence > > I know this is off topic but can anyone offer me a definition > of emotional intelligence? > Is Spock in Star Trek an example of someone totally lacking > in emotional intelligence? simply putting things constantly > in terms of rationality, logical ordering and coherent rules? > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jan 30 18:18:27 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:18:27 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lucien Carr (1925-2005) Message-ID: <1e.3dec7d57.2f2ec543@aol.com> Subject: Lucien Carr (1925-2005) 'Beat' Generation Catalyst Lucien Carr Dies Fri Jan 28, 7:09 PM ET By Randall Mikkelsen WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Lucien Carr, a muse and catalyst of the "beat generation" who brought Jack Kerouac together with other writers to spark a counterculture revolution, died on Friday in Washington. He was 79. Carr, a retired senior editor at the United Press International news wire service, died at George Washington University Hospital of complications from cancer treatment, said his longtime companion Kathleen Silvassy. Carr was a student at Columbia University in New York in 1944 when he introduced Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg and William Burroughs, who formed the literary nucleus of the countercultural "beatnik" movement of the 1950s. "The beat scene was a circle of friends who just happened to have three of the most important writers of in the last 50 years in America, plus some extraordinary minds, including Lucien," said Dennis McNally, author of the Kerouac biography "Desolate Angel: Jack Kerouac, the Beat Generation and America." By some accounts, including his own, Carr played a role in Kerouac's legendary speedwriting of the breakthrough novel "On the Road," by supplying a Teletype roll for the manuscript. "I didn't steal it," he told a co-worker at UPI. "I just stuck it under my arm and brought it home." But McNally said he inspected the manuscript recently and found it to consist of individual sheets of paper taped together. It was possible Carr supplied the roll for another Kerouac novel, "Dharma Bums," he said. "Lucien's impact on Kerouac's thinking and writing was considerably more important than whether or not he supplied the roll," McNally said. He said Carr helped instill a notion of "first thought, best thought," in which the beat writers strived to be closer to the roots of inspiration and write spontaneously. Carr served two years on a manslaughter conviction for stabbing dead an older man, David Kammerer, who had a romantic crush on Carr, and throwing his body into the Hudson River in 1944. The conviction cast a pall over the emerging beats who were striving for authenticity in the gritty urban streets of America, and probably kept Carr from playing a more public role for the rest of his life, McNally said. The killing and Carr's friendship with Burroughs were portrayed in the 2000 movie "Beat." Carr was also portrayed as Kenneth Wood in Kerouac's novel "The Town and the City." Carr's 47-year UPI career began after his prison term and spanned most of the second half of the 20th century. "Lou Carr was a great editor: calm and unflappable as he handled bulletins and any political crisis that came in Washington," said former UPI White House correspondent Helen Thomas. "Young reporters were in awe of him -- some of the veterans as well." Carr is also survived by three sons, Simon, Ethan, Caleb - a writer whose works include the murder mystery "The Alienist," and five grandchildren. (Additional reporting by Lori Santos) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Sun Jan 30 18:52:38 2005 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:52:38 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lucien Carr (1925-2005) In-Reply-To: <1e.3dec7d57.2f2ec543@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050130175133.01ceb030@cyrus.undsmhs.net> At 06:18 PM 1/30/2005 -0500, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >Subject: Lucien Carr (1925-2005) >'Beat' Generation Catalyst Lucien Carr Dies >Fri Jan 28, 7:09 PM ET > >By Randall Mikkelsen > >WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Lucien Carr, a muse and catalyst of the "beat >generation" who brought Jack Kerouac together with other writers to >spark a counterculture revolution, died on Friday in Washington. > >He was 79. *There* is a biography begging to be written! Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 30 19:40:22 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:40:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Kees Biography In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050130175133.01ceb030@cyrus.undsmhs.net> Message-ID: <20050131004022.7207.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com> Speaking of bios, has anyone read Riedel's bio of Weldon Kees? I got it through the library last year and to tell the truth, I was rather bored after a few chapters. I have no objective empirical demands of a bio and perhaps I was reading it at the wrong time, but I just found it a sleeper. The reason I'm asking is that I *do* want to revisit the book, and I'm wondering if anybody has any opinions on it. Thanks much, Jeff N. Richard Wilsnack wrote (Re: Lucien Carr): > *There* is a biography begging to be written! > ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Jan 30 20:03:12 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:03:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Kees Biography Message-ID: In a message dated 1/30/2005 6:40:50 PM Central Standard Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE > Speaking of bios, has anyone read Riedel's bio of > Weldon Kees? > > I got it through the library last year and to tell the > truth, I was rather bored after a few chapters. I > have no objective empirical demands of a bio and > perhaps I was reading it at the wrong time, but I just > found it a sleeper. The reason I'm asking is that I > *do* want to revisit the book, and I'm wondering if > anybody has any opinions on it. > > Thanks much, > > Jeff N. > > Richard Wilsnack wrote (Re: Lucien Carr): I thought it was o.k., though somewhat under-energized. Kees seemed to have a genius for shooting himself in the foot as far as a career was concerned. I looked forward to it but didn't see much of an advance over Knoll's earlier book, which I'd figured would be as close to a biography as we'd ever have. I was particularly interested to learn of Kees's friendship with Pauline Kael and Phyllis Diller. He also took lots of speed, which helps to explain the manic energy behind poems like "Round," and drank a lot, as did his wife. Another member of the great bi-polar generation of poets. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Sun Jan 30 10:10:49 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:10:49 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iraqis Brave Bombs to Vote in Their Millions Message-ID: Moron voters give proud fingers to whom it may offend! Neocons stand bestride the Tigris and Euphrates! At 12:00 PM -0400 8/29/04, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: >"Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. > Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin The people of Iraq are the ones counting the votes, Professor, punched with history's indelible ink. I STAND WITH THE FIRST LADY I STAND WITH THE STATUE OF LIBERTY A crowd of poets waving their poems Is merely a crowd waving its fists - - - And not one swung at Saddam, Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. Iraqis Brave Bombs to Vote in Their Millions By Luke Baker BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Some came on crutches, others walked for miles then struggled to read the ballot, but across Iraq, millions turned out to vote Sunday, defying insurgents who threatened a bloodbath. Suicide bombs and mortars killed at least 27 people, but voters still came out in force for the first multi-party poll in 50 years. In some places they cheered with joy at their first chance to cast a free vote, in others they shared chocolates. Even in Falluja, the Sunni city west of Baghdad that was a militant stronghold until a U.S. assault in November, a steady stream of people turned out, confounding expectations. Lines of veiled women clutching their papers waited to vote. "We want to be like other Iraqis, we don't want to always be in opposition," said Ahmed Jassim, smiling after he voted. In Baquba, a rebellious city northeast of Baghdad, spirited crowds clapped and cheered at one voting station. In Mosul, scene of some of the worst insurgent attacks in recent months, U.S. and local officials said turnout was surprisingly high. One of the first to vote was President Ghazi al-Yawar, a Sunni Muslim Arab with a large tribal following, who cast his ballot inside Baghdad's fortress-like Green Zone. "Thanks be to God," he told reporters, emerging from the booth with his right index finger stained with bright blue ink to show he had voted. "I hope everyone will go out and vote." At 12:00 PM -0500 1/17/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: >Message: 3 >An Open Letter from Sam Hamill > >New Years Day, 2005 > >Dear Friends: > >The war drags on. Fallujah has been destroyed in order to save it, shades >of Vietnam. A man who presented the argument in favor of ignoring the >Geneva accords, a man who would authorize torture, is now our Attorney >General. More than 100,000 Iraqi civilians dead, many times more wounded, >homeless??? And American soldiers who have served their tours of duty are >being post facto drafted to remain in combat. > >We can look forward to Bush???s new secretary of state continuing to??? who >knows what? And there will be supreme and other high court appointments, >and of course a Patriot Act II, with attendant incursions into our >constitutional rights. Tax cuts for the rich? Permanent. The environment? >The worst policies in our history. What a ghastly litany. > >Four more years, indeed. > >A number of organizations are encouraging January 20 demonstrations and >teach-ins and contra-Bush celebrations > >Baghdad's mayor was overcome with emotion by the turnout of voters >at City Hall, where he said thousands were celebrating. > >"I cannot describe what I am seeing. It is incredible. This is a >vote for the future, for the children, for the rule of law, for >humanity, for love," Alaa al-Tamimi told Reuters. > around the world. I hope you will >all join me in joining them. > > >Namaste. > >Sam Hamill >poetsagainstthewar.org In the relatively secure Kurdish north, people flowed steadily to the polls. One illiterate man in Arbil, 76-year-old Said Rasool, came alone and was turned away, unable to read the ballot paper. He said he would return with someone to help. Even in the so-called "triangle of death," a hotbed of Sunni insurgency south of Baghdad, turnout was solid, officials said. FESTIVE VOTING In mainly Shi'ite Basra, Iraq's second biggest city, hundreds of voters queued patiently at polling centers. "I am not afraid," said Samir Khalil Ibrahim. "This is like a festival for all Iraqis." A small group cheered in Baghdad as Sharif Ali bin al-Hussein, a descendant of Iraq's last king, went to the polls. Ali leads a constitutional monarchy slate in the election. Western Baghdad polling stations were busy, with long queues of voters. Most went about the process routinely, filling in their ballots and leaving quickly without much emotion. Others brought chocolates for those waiting in line, and shared festive juice drinks inside the voting station. Samir Hassan, 32, who lost his leg in a car bomb blast in October, was determined to vote. "I would have crawled here if I had to. I don't want terrorists to kill other Iraqis like they tried to kill me. Today I am voting for peace," he said, leaning on his metal crutches, determination in his reddened eyes. In Sadr City, a poor Shi'ite neighborhood of northeast Baghdad, thick lines of voters turned out, women in black abaya robes in one line, men in another. Some of the first to vote countrywide were policemen, out in force to protect polling centers from attack, part of draconian security measures put in place by U.S. and Iraqi officials. In Samarra, a restive Sunni-Shi'ite city north of Baghdad, the crackle of gunfire was heard minutes after polls opened. After a few hours, only about 100 people had voted at one of two polling sites. One woman, covered head-to-toe in black robes, kept her face concealed, but said she voted with pride. In nearby Baiji, some people were unable to vote because electoral officials failed to turn up. "We are waiting for the manager with the key," said an election worker, apologizing. "VOTE FOR HUMANITY" In the shrine city of Najaf in the Shi'ite heartland, hundreds of people walked calmly to polling stations. Security around Najaf, attacked before, was some of the tightest. "This is a wedding for all Iraqis. I congratulate all Iraqis on their newfound freedom and democracy," said Jaida Hamza, dressed in a black Islamic veil that also hid her face. Shi'ites, who make up 60 percent of Iraq's people, are expected to win the vote, overturning years of oppression. In Kirkuk, a city divided between Arabs, Kurds and Turkmen, Kurds turned out in force, as expected, but there were signs Arabs and Turkmen were boycotting, angered by what they see as voting rules that favor Kurds. One of the biggest surprises was Mosul, a mixed Sunni Arab and Kurd city in the far north. "So far it's gone very well, much better than expected," said a U.S. army officer. Baghdad's mayor was overcome with emotion by the turnout of voters at City Hall, where he said thousands were celebrating. "I cannot describe what I am seeing. It is incredible. This is a vote for the future, for the children, for the rule of law, for humanity, for love," Alaa al-Tamimi told Reuters. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ R I C H A R D D I L L O N -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au Sun Jan 30 23:19:02 2005 From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:19:02 +1100 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Malleable Jangle February /Issue 3 is now online In-Reply-To: <200501301700.j0UH09An009626@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20050131041902.60083.qmail@web51403.mail.yahoo.com> Hello all, January/Issue 2 was an exciting time for Malleable Jangle and February will be the same. The February Issue/number 3 is now online. Here is the URL for those who do not know: http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com We have a new look but the high standard of poetry remains the same. Although we are based in Australia, Malleable Jangle is International in its outlook. Quality poetry from overseas and locally. In Issue 3 the following poets are presented: Lawrence Upton * Sue Stanford * Sabyasachi Roy * Andy Jackson * Srinjay Chakravarti * F.J. Bergmann * David Berray * Malleable Jangle would also like to present articles on poetics, or the mechanisms of poetry, and reviews. Submissions are now open for Issue 4. Warm regards, Robert Lane. Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 05:13:40 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 02:13:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050131101340.69156.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> I take it that emotional intelligence and empathy are the same thing? I don't think emotional intelligence actually exists since emotions and intelligence are 2 entirely different things with differing effects and functions. I'm told that emotional intelligence is what allows us to behave appropriately as opposed to lacking it where one behaves inappropriately. I don't fundamentally think that emotional intelligence exists and therefore lacking it is impossible since it didn't exist in the first place. There is no difference between appropriate and inappropriate behaviour because such divisions necessitate a higher or superior being who is able to distinguish between the two and no such omnipotent being actually exists because all morality and all social behaviour is essentially conditional on what is actually happening at any given time. Therefore, at one point rape and murder are allowable and, indeed, necessary and the person who does the most of these things is rewarded rather than being punished as would normally be the case. At other times such behaviour is clearly improper and also inappropriate, even certain words and certain kinds of rather innocuous behaviour begin to become inappropriate depending upon the point on the social scale you happen to be. It is therefore impossible to define exactly what emotional intelligence is and it is probably best to say 'when in Rome'. --- Peter Cudmore wrote: > Check out Aaron Sloman (Google, or, e.g., > http://streebgreebling.blogspot.com/2005/01/legends-in-ai-aaron-sloman.html) > an artificial intelligence guy who has speculated on > the parameters of > artificial emotion. > > :P > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On > Behalf Of Paul Murphy > > Sent: 30 January 2005 17:34 > > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > > Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence > > > > I know this is off topic but can anyone offer me a > definition > > of emotional intelligence? > > Is Spock in Star Trek an example of someone > totally lacking > > in emotional intelligence? simply putting things > constantly > > in terms of rationality, logical ordering and > coherent rules? > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced > search. > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 31 07:44:33 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:44:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <20050131101340.69156.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a901c50792$9d922ef0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I take it that emotional intelligence and empathy are > the same thing? I don't think emotional intelligence > actually exists since emotions and intelligence are 2 > entirely different things with differing effects and > functions. Emotions and intelligence are two different things, sure. But part of the brain many psychologists, and I, believe, is aware of one's emotions. That is, one's emotions are the stimuli for sensory organs that feed data into a part of the brain that deals with emotional perceptions, just as the visual part of the brain dels with visual perceptions. A second awareness (in my theory) deals with the emotions of others in the same manner. There is also probably a higher-level intelligence that co:ordinates one's understanding of one's own emotions and one's understanding of others' emotion. This higher-level intelligence would take into account many other understandings, as well. "Anthroceptuality" is the name I give this higher-level intelligence in my theory: awareness of human beings; it subdivides into "egoceptuality" (insight into one's own psychology) and "socioceptuality" (insight into the psychology of others). Professor Grumman From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 07:56:11 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:56:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <00a901c50792$9d922ef0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050131125611.85630.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> emotional intelligence sounded to me like a noun/adjective combination like National Socialist Workers Party Germany or Comintern or Gestapo etc etc etc. Anyone versed in political terminology should immediately recognise the sophistry implicit in this pseudo-scientific nomenclature. Is emotional intelligence the same as empathy? I take empathy to be a combination of the German einfuhlung with sympathy and a neologism rather than a noun/adjective combination. --- Bob Grumman wrote: > >I take it that emotional intelligence and empathy > are > > the same thing? I don't think emotional > intelligence > > actually exists since emotions and intelligence > are 2 > > entirely different things with differing effects > and > > functions. > > Emotions and intelligence are two different things, > sure. But part of the > brain many psychologists, and I, believe, is aware > of one's emotions. That > is, one's emotions are the stimuli for sensory > organs that feed data into a > part of the brain that deals with emotional > perceptions, just as the visual > part of the brain dels with visual perceptions. A > second awareness (in my > theory) deals with the emotions of others in the > same manner. There is also > probably a higher-level intelligence that > co:ordinates one's understanding > of one's own emotions and one's understanding of > others' emotion. This > higher-level intelligence would take into account > many other understandings, > as well. > > "Anthroceptuality" is the name I give this > higher-level intelligence in my > theory: awareness of human beings; it subdivides > into "egoceptuality" > (insight into one's own psychology) and > "socioceptuality" (insight into the > psychology of others). > > Professor Grumman > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 31 08:35:42 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:35:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <20050131125611.85630.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d101c50799$c3145ed0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > emotional intelligence sounded to me like a > noun/adjective combination like National Socialist > Workers Party Germany or Comintern or Gestapo etc etc > etc. Anyone versed in political terminology should > immediately recognise the sophistry implicit in this > pseudo-scientific nomenclature. What's pseudo scientific about it? "Emotional" and "intelligence" are both very common in the language of ordinary folks. My own terminology is a different story, but to assume any neology that combines terms is sophistry is absurd. My own terms are intended entirely to be descriptive. > Is emotional intelligence the same as empathy? Not in my theory, but increased empathy would be one of the probable results of superior anthroceptuality. --Bob G. > I take > empathy to be a combination of the German einfuhlung > with sympathy and a neologism rather than a > noun/adjective combination. > --- Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >I take it that emotional intelligence and empathy >> are >> > the same thing? I don't think emotional >> intelligence >> > actually exists since emotions and intelligence >> are 2 >> > entirely different things with differing effects >> and >> > functions. >> >> Emotions and intelligence are two different things, >> sure. But part of the >> brain many psychologists, and I, believe, is aware >> of one's emotions. That >> is, one's emotions are the stimuli for sensory >> organs that feed data into a >> part of the brain that deals with emotional >> perceptions, just as the visual >> part of the brain dels with visual perceptions. A >> second awareness (in my >> theory) deals with the emotions of others in the >> same manner. There is also >> probably a higher-level intelligence that >> co:ordinates one's understanding >> of one's own emotions and one's understanding of >> others' emotion. This >> higher-level intelligence would take into account >> many other understandings, >> as well. >> >> "Anthroceptuality" is the name I give this >> higher-level intelligence in my >> theory: awareness of human beings; it subdivides >> into "egoceptuality" >> (insight into one's own psychology) and >> "socioceptuality" (insight into the >> psychology of others). >> >> Professor Grumman From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jan 31 08:37:36 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:37:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <20050131101340.69156.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> <00a901c50792$9d922ef0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005801c5079a$06e62030$a1af3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Bonjour Monsieur Professor Gruman, starting with Rudolf Steiner who, after Jung, opened up some eyes especially here in Italy (see Arturo Onofri) there are nine levels of (he called them spirituality) but by following your intuition, they can be called intelligences. The one you define _egoceptuality_ can be the first level inuited by Steiner, i.e. the animic (from animus), and he considered, in this specific case, the _soul_ or better animus, nothing but the first envelope we have around ourselves, the ones that perceives emotions, to start climbing towards the other levels, up to the ninth, spirit in its pure essence, and probably your "Anthroceptuality". Fact is that as soon as you find nine of these steps to be walked through, you can invent much more. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence > >I take it that emotional intelligence and empathy are > > the same thing? I don't think emotional intelligence > > actually exists since emotions and intelligence are 2 > > entirely different things with differing effects and > > functions. > > Emotions and intelligence are two different things, sure. But part of the > brain many psychologists, and I, believe, is aware of one's emotions. That > is, one's emotions are the stimuli for sensory organs that feed data into a > part of the brain that deals with emotional perceptions, just as the visual > part of the brain dels with visual perceptions. A second awareness (in my > theory) deals with the emotions of others in the same manner. There is also > probably a higher-level intelligence that co:ordinates one's understanding > of one's own emotions and one's understanding of others' emotion. This > higher-level intelligence would take into account many other understandings, > as well. > > "Anthroceptuality" is the name I give this higher-level intelligence in my > theory: awareness of human beings; it subdivides into "egoceptuality" > (insight into one's own psychology) and "socioceptuality" (insight into the > psychology of others). > > Professor Grumman > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 08:44:50 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 05:44:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <00d101c50799$c3145ed0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050131134450.38591.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> I'm not saying that they're uncommon just unusally combined. That would de-limit these terms as immediately being a bit suspect and definitely so if it was a political party not a species of emotiveness or something. --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > emotional intelligence sounded to me like a > > noun/adjective combination like National Socialist > > Workers Party Germany or Comintern or Gestapo etc > etc > > etc. Anyone versed in political terminology > should > > immediately recognise the sophistry implicit in > this > > pseudo-scientific nomenclature. > > What's pseudo scientific about it? "Emotional" and > "intelligence" are both > very common in the language of ordinary folks. My > own terminology is a > different story, but to assume any neology that > combines terms is sophistry > is absurd. My own terms are intended entirely to be > descriptive. > > > Is emotional intelligence the same as empathy? > > Not in my theory, but increased empathy would be one > of the probable results > of superior anthroceptuality. > > --Bob G. > > > I take > > empathy to be a combination of the German > einfuhlung > > with sympathy and a neologism rather than a > > noun/adjective combination. > > > > --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > > >> >I take it that emotional intelligence and > empathy > >> are > >> > the same thing? I don't think emotional > >> intelligence > >> > actually exists since emotions and intelligence > >> are 2 > >> > entirely different things with differing > effects > >> and > >> > functions. > >> > >> Emotions and intelligence are two different > things, > >> sure. But part of the > >> brain many psychologists, and I, believe, is > aware > >> of one's emotions. That > >> is, one's emotions are the stimuli for sensory > >> organs that feed data into a > >> part of the brain that deals with emotional > >> perceptions, just as the visual > >> part of the brain dels with visual perceptions. > A > >> second awareness (in my > >> theory) deals with the emotions of others in the > >> same manner. There is also > >> probably a higher-level intelligence that > >> co:ordinates one's understanding > >> of one's own emotions and one's understanding of > >> others' emotion. This > >> higher-level intelligence would take into account > >> many other understandings, > >> as well. > >> > >> "Anthroceptuality" is the name I give this > >> higher-level intelligence in my > >> theory: awareness of human beings; it subdivides > >> into "egoceptuality" > >> (insight into one's own psychology) and > >> "socioceptuality" (insight into the > >> psychology of others). > >> > >> Professor Grumman > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 31 08:52:36 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:52:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <20050131101340.69156.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com><00a901c50792$9d922ef0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005801c5079a$06e62030$a1af3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <00d801c5079c$1f335e80$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bonjour Monsieur Professor Gruman, > > starting with Rudolf Steiner who, after Jung, opened up some eyes > especially > here in Italy (see Arturo Onofri) there are nine levels of (he called them > spirituality) but by following your intuition, they can be called > intelligences. The one you define _egoceptuality_ can be the first level > inuited by Steiner, i.e. the animic (from animus), and he considered, in > this specific case, the _soul_ or better animus, nothing but the first > envelope we have around ourselves, the ones that perceives emotions, to > start climbing towards the other levels, up to the ninth, spirit in its > pure > essence, and probably your "Anthroceptuality". Fact is that as soon as you > find nine of these steps to be walked through, you can invent much more. > > Anny Ballardini Interesting, Anny. One difference (I think) in my "egoceptuality" from the "animic" one you mention is that egoceptualities range in effectiveness. That is, one person may have a poor egoceptuality and thus not know anything at all about himself. I, for instance, must have a very poor one, because I think my motive in defining poetry is purely clarificatory whereas one who knows far more about me than I do has determined that my motive is merely to advance my own type of poetry--oops, I mean, "word-art"--at the expense of all other kinds. --The Professor From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 31 08:56:41 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:56:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <20050131134450.38591.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00dd01c5079c$b1960a20$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I'm not saying that they're uncommon just unusally > combined. That would de-limit these terms as > immediately being a bit suspect and definitely so if > it was a political party not a species of emotiveness > or something. Well, I think you should take any neology at its face value and not be influenced by the SOMETIME propagandistic use of neologies. I don't use the term, "emotional intelligence," myself, but think it quite appropriate and in no way suggestive of sophistry. If you believe in intelligence about one's own and others' emotions, what kind of term would you name it with that would not seem suggestive of sophistry? (To continue this incredibly beside-the-point discussion.) --Bob G. From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 09:08:41 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 06:08:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <00dd01c5079c$b1960a20$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050131140841.14400.qmail@web40421.mail.yahoo.com> I don't think it is (beside the point). I think that appropriate behaviour is conditioned and in comparison to what? Inappropriate behaviour and where can that possibly come from? I don't think that behaviour can be divided into such binary opposites since there is no superior moral being to refer back to. I assume, therefore, that there is really no God and no morality except the morality that men and women create. Therefore, in appropriate behaviour, conditioned as it is by a lack of emotional intelligence, is just the behaviour of someone behaving logically and intelligently in a world divorced from logic, intelligence and morality. --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > I'm not saying that they're uncommon just unusally > > combined. That would de-limit these terms as > > immediately being a bit suspect and definitely so > if > > it was a political party not a species of > emotiveness > > or something. > > Well, I think you should take any neology at its > face value and not be > influenced by the SOMETIME propagandistic use of > neologies. I don't use the > term, "emotional intelligence," myself, but think it > quite appropriate and > in no way suggestive of sophistry. If you believe > in intelligence about > one's own and others' emotions, what kind of term > would you name it with > that would not seem suggestive of sophistry? (To > continue this incredibly > beside-the-point discussion.) > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jan 31 09:07:52 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:07:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <20050131101340.69156.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <41FDF568.16061.217D94@localhost> On 31 Jan 2005 at 2:13, Paul Murphy wrote: > I take it that emotional intelligence and empathy are > the same thing? I don't think emotional intelligence > actually exists since emotions and intelligence are 2 > entirely different things with differing effects and > functions. ... and etc.<< In the phrase "emotional intelligence" the word "intelligence" is being used metaphorically, not literally. Marcus From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 09:18:26 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 06:18:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <41FDF568.16061.217D94@localhost> Message-ID: <20050131141827.2229.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> what does it matter if it is literal or metaphorical, it still doesn't make any sense, does it? Can you offer some examples of e-i? For instance, taking an interest in the other person, entertaining people with light jokes and stories, creating little competitions and puppet plays for children? These are examples of emotional intelligence as opposed to hours and hours of hardcore philosophy.... --- Marcus Bales wrote: > On 31 Jan 2005 at 2:13, Paul Murphy wrote: > > I take it that emotional intelligence and empathy > are > > the same thing? I don't think emotional > intelligence > > actually exists since emotions and intelligence > are 2 > > entirely different things with differing effects > and > > functions. ... and etc.<< > > In the phrase "emotional intelligence" the word > "intelligence" is > being used metaphorically, not literally. > > Marcus > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Jan 31 09:23:48 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:23:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <20050131101340.69156.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com><00a901c50792$9d922ef0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005801c5079a$06e62030$a1af3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> <00d801c5079c$1f335e80$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009b01c507a0$7b17db50$a1af3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> > Interesting, Anny. One difference (I think) in my "egoceptuality" from the > "animic" one you mention is that egoceptualities range in effectiveness. > That is, one person may have a poor egoceptuality and thus not know anything > at all about himself. I, for instance, must have a very poor one, because I > think my motive in defining poetry is purely clarificatory whereas one who > knows far more about me than I do has determined that my motive is merely to > advance my own type of poetry--oops, I mean, "word-art"--at the expense of > all other kinds. > > --The Professor Dear The Professor, I think we are talking of the same soup but getting confused on the name of the noodles there are inside. "Egoceptuality" = "animic" by Steiner, that is the first and instinctual envelope we have. To which we add another one, and above this one another one, and so on, until we reach the ninth. Those people who are egoceptual (or animic), according to Steiner, live at an animic level, know practically nothing except that they are hungry, that it is cold, and that something hurt them. Sensations and wild emotions are what rule them, and they let themselves be managed without any further development of their minds. By being so emotionally centered, they seemed to me egocentered, and that is why I thought your egoceptuality could be equaled with the animic, but since your egoceptual self takes in consideration art, which seems to me a subsequent step on the ladder of human progress, there might be a gap between the two definitions. I think this is it for me for a while, I do have some work to do, sorry, Anny From Thom424 at aol.com Mon Jan 31 09:27:35 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:27:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] new film: poets & war article from the l.a. times Message-ID: <3A7F78F3.0632AE98.001A46F6@aol.com> January 30 2005 david shaw, l.a. times Plato wanted to banish all poets from his ideal Republic, and having just watched an advance copy of a new documentary film, "Voices in Wartime," I suspect that President Bush would also like to ban poets from his less-than-ideal republic. The complete article can be viewed at: http://www.latimes.com/features/lifestyle/cl-ca-shaw30jan30,0,5981199.column?coll=la-home-utilities thom tammaro moorhead, mn From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 31 10:44:40 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:44:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <41FDF568.16061.217D94@localhost> Message-ID: <015a01c507ab$c76f9d70$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 31 Jan 2005 at 2:13, Paul Murphy wrote: >> I take it that emotional intelligence and empathy are >> the same thing? I don't think emotional intelligence >> actually exists since emotions and intelligence are 2 >> entirely different things with differing effects and >> functions. ... and etc.<< > > In the phrase "emotional intelligence" the word "intelligence" is > being used metaphorically, not literally. Not when I use it. Intelligence is effective understanding of something. Mathematical intelligence is effective understanding of mathematics. Emotion eintelligence is effective understanding of emotions. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 31 10:48:08 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:48:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <20050131140841.14400.qmail@web40421.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <016101c507ac$43331e00$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I don't think it is (beside the point). You don't think what is beside the point? I was referring to the discussion of what we call "emotional intelligence." >I think that > appropriate behaviour is conditioned and in comparison > to what? Inappropriate behaviour and where can that > possibly come from? I don't think that behaviour can > be divided into such binary opposites since there is > no superior moral being to refer back to. I assume, > therefore, that there is really no God and no morality > except the morality that men and women create. > Therefore, in appropriate behaviour, conditioned as it > is by a lack of emotional intelligence, is just the > behaviour of someone behaving logically and > intelligently in a world divorced from logic, > intelligence and morality. Sorry, Paul, but I'm too tired to try to figure out what you're talking about. Emotional intelligence seems to me a simple, useful term to describe how people understand their emotions. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 31 10:50:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:50:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <20050131141827.2229.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <016a01c507ac$9268acb0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > what does it matter if it is literal or metaphorical, > it still doesn't make any sense, does it? Can you > offer some examples of e-i? For instance, taking an > interest in the other person, entertaining people with > light jokes and stories, creating little competitions > and puppet plays for children? These are examples of > emotional intelligence as opposed to hours and hours > of hardcore philosophy.... I just read a Peanuts comic strip in which the little girl, Lucy, throws Shroeder's piano into a tree. He screams at her. She interprets his screams to mean he's beginning to like her. This is poor emotional intelligence. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 31 10:53:30 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:53:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <20050131101340.69156.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com><00a901c50792$9d922ef0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005801c5079a$06e62030$a1af3452@yourpk9x5fuc06><00d801c5079c$1f335e80$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009b01c507a0$7b17db50$a1af3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <017201c507ad$03017150$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Interesting, Anny. One difference (I think) in my "egoceptuality" from > the >> "animic" one you mention is that egoceptualities range in effectiveness. >> That is, one person may have a poor egoceptuality and thus not know > anything >> at all about himself. I, for instance, must have a very poor one, >> because > I >> think my motive in defining poetry is purely clarificatory whereas one >> who >> knows far more about me than I do has determined that my motive is merely > to >> advance my own type of poetry--oops, I mean, "word-art"--at the expense >> of >> all other kinds. >> >> --The Professor > > > Dear The Professor, > > I think we are talking of the same soup but getting confused on the name > of > the noodles there are inside. "Egoceptuality" = "animic" by Steiner, that > is > the first and instinctual envelope we have. To which we add another one, > and > above this one another one, and so on, until we reach the ninth. > > Those people who are egoceptual (or animic), according to Steiner, live at > an animic level, know practically nothing except that they are hungry, > that > it is cold, and that something hurt them. Sensations and wild emotions are > what rule them, and they let themselves be managed without any further > development of their minds. > > By being so emotionally centered, they seemed to me egocentered, and that > is > why I thought your egoceptuality could be equaled with the animic, but > since > your egoceptual self takes in consideration art, which seems to me a > subsequent step on the ladder of human progress, there might be a gap > between the two definitions. > > I think this is it for me for a while, I do have some work to do, sorry, > Anny Yeah, me, too. I'm just saying that my term, egoceptuality, is different from Steiner's. His state is entirely constricted whereas mine can be rich. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 31 10:58:07 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:58:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] new film: poets & war article from the l.a. times References: <3A7F78F3.0632AE98.001A46F6@aol.com> Message-ID: <017701c507ad$a86b0610$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Good timing--just when Iraq is taking another step downhill from when it was peacefully happy under Saddam Hussein. --Bob G. From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 11:00:43 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:00:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <016a01c507ac$9268acb0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050131160043.19999.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> yes I agree, also called not being able to take no for an answer emotional intelligence means behaving appropriately laughing at a funeral or crying at a wedding unless you happen to hate those people in which case why would you be at their wedding/funeral? --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > what does it matter if it is literal or > metaphorical, > > it still doesn't make any sense, does it? Can you > > offer some examples of e-i? For instance, taking > an > > interest in the other person, entertaining people > with > > light jokes and stories, creating little > competitions > > and puppet plays for children? These are examples > of > > emotional intelligence as opposed to hours and > hours > > of hardcore philosophy.... > > I just read a Peanuts comic strip in which the > little girl, Lucy, throws > Shroeder's piano into a tree. He screams at her. > She interprets his > screams to mean he's beginning to like her. This is > poor emotional > intelligence. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Jan 31 11:28:28 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:28:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <20050131160043.19999.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: { emotional intelligence means behaving appropriately { laughing at a funeral or crying at a wedding { unless you happen to hate those people in which case { why would you be at their wedding/funeral? Schadenfreude? Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. --Noam Chomsky Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 31 11:38:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:38:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence References: <20050131160043.19999.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01a901c507b3$46f9e5d0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > yes I agree, also called not being able to take no for > an answer > emotional intelligence means behaving appropriately > laughing at a funeral or crying at a wedding > unless you happen to hate those people in which case > why would you be at their wedding/funeral? Because your emotional intelligence tells you your community will like you better for it? Or any number of other reasons. --Bob G. From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 11:43:10 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:43:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050131164310.38513.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> Schadenfreude is a very common word in Germany. I write to my friend Frau Hartl and often address her as Frau Schadenfreude (or Frau Regenbogenlicht or Fran Schweinimausdead or Frau Claudia Muffin) as a little wink or nod to the postie who no doubt chortles endlessly over my pranks..... --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > > { emotional intelligence means behaving > appropriately > { laughing at a funeral or crying at a wedding > { unless you happen to hate those people in which > case > { why would you be at their wedding/funeral? > > Schadenfreude? > > Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. > --Noam Chomsky > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 11:45:11 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:45:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <01a901c507b3$46f9e5d0$6fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20050131164511.9378.qmail@web40424.mail.yahoo.com> if I was attracted to someone and sent them a packet of arsenic, why should I expect them to love me? On the other hand, throwing word bombs at others is probably a sign of passion, even if it is mis-directed. --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > yes I agree, also called not being able to take no > for > > an answer > > emotional intelligence means behaving > appropriately > > laughing at a funeral or crying at a wedding > > unless you happen to hate those people in which > case > > why would you be at their wedding/funeral? > > Because your emotional intelligence tells you your > community will like you > better for it? Or any number of other reasons. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jan 31 13:23:35 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:23:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence In-Reply-To: <20050131141827.2229.qmail@web40429.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41FDF568.16061.217D94@localhost> Message-ID: <41FE3157.7931.2F8E7F@localhost> On 31 Jan 2005 at 6:18, Paul Murphy wrote: > what does it matter if it is literal or metaphorical, > it still doesn't make any sense, does it? Sure it does -- in the same way that any metaphor makes sense. If you say that an animal running, a woman walking, an athlete performing, is "poetry in motion" you don't really mean that the act is a poem, and don't expect it to be taken that way. You're using "poetry" to mean top-flight excellence. The notion of "emotional intelligence" is one which supposes that one's ability to understand one's own and others' emotional states, and even to manipulate them, varies from person to person as intelligence does, and is as measurable as intelligence is (though that is itself a problematic notion). I don't propose to defend the measurement of intelligence or emotional intelligence, but as a metaphor "emotional intelligence" is no less questionable than "poetry in motion", and the like. Marcus From ershadmz at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 14:18:36 2005 From: ershadmz at yahoo.com (ershad mazumder) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:18:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mountain and Ocean Message-ID: <20050131191837.31457.qmail@web60306.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends I submitted a poem title Mountain and Ocean. Now I can not see it.Please support me.Please also let me know how do I submit more poems. Ershad Mazumder --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 14:38:52 2005 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:38:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mountain and Ocean In-Reply-To: <20050131191837.31457.qmail@web60306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050131193852.76141.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com> You submitted a poem to whom? What do you mean by "see?" Like "understand?" As in, "I see?" Jeff N. --- ershad mazumder wrote: > Dear Friends > I submitted a poem title Mountain and Ocean. Now I > can not see it.Please support me.Please also let me > know how do I submit more poems. > > Ershad Mazumder > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > your friends today! Download Messenger Now> _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Sonia_Roman at newyorklife.com Mon Jan 31 14:48:09 2005 From: Sonia_Roman at newyorklife.com (sonia roman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:48:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mountain and Ocean Message-ID: That's funny. Sonia Roman Administrative Associate Office of Governmental Affairs Tel. 212-576-5791 Fax. 212-576-4473 Jeff Newberry Views" Sent by: cc: new-poetry-bounces at wiz. Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mountain and Ocean cath.vt.edu 01/31/2005 02:38 PM Please respond to "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" You submitted a poem to whom? What do you mean by "see?" Like "understand?" As in, "I see?" Jeff N. --- ershad mazumder wrote: > Dear Friends > I submitted a poem title Mountain and Ocean. Now I > can not see it.Please support me.Please also let me > know how do I submit more poems. > > Ershad Mazumder > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > your friends today! Download Messenger Now> _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ===== Jeff Newberry "Sometimes it's not so easy, especially when your only friend talks, sees, looks and feels like you, and you do just the same as him." --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry