From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb  1 10:42:43 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:42:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ben Lerner interview
Message-ID: <s1ff4f23.069@mail.highland.edu>

For those who might be interested, a conversation between me and Ben
Lerner, editor of NO: a journal of the arts, and winner of Lannan and
Hayden Carruth awards for his "sonnet sequence" The Lichtenberg Figures
(Copper Canyon, 2004), is available at Jacket #26. One can also see here
the photograph of a Lichtenberg figure on a lightning strike victim!

http://jacketmagazine.com/26/index.html

Kent




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Feb  1 04:42:11 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 03:42:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
Message-ID: <BE24AB13.806D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On the Poet of the Month website, there's an amazing poet for February . . .
Can't catch my breath. . . The images! . . . The music! . . . Has
Shakespeare been reincarnated? . . . I'm  too overwhelmed to continue . . .
Check the link below . . . I'm serious . . . This is why poetry was invented
. . .

http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/

---
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  1 11:58:01 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:58:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
In-Reply-To: <BE24AB13.806D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGENNJOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
            taken and to whom nothing must be given."
                         --Anna Akhmatova

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
   
{    On the Poet of the Month website, there's an amazing poet for February . . .
{    Can't catch my breath. . . The images! . . . The music! . . . Has
{    Shakespeare been reincarnated? . . . I'm  too overwhelmed to continue . . .
{    Check the link below . . . I'm serious . . . This is why poetry was invented
{    . . .
{    
{    http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/
{    
{    ---
{    [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    



From tad at opus40.org  Tue Feb  1 12:20:12 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:20:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
References: <BE24AB13.806D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <004e01c50882$4bd8fe90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Be still my heart. And I'm the 8982nd person to discover this new 
Shakespeare.



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:42 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month


> On the Poet of the Month website, there's an amazing poet for February . . 
> .
> Can't catch my breath. . . The images! . . . The music! . . . Has
> Shakespeare been reincarnated? . . . I'm  too overwhelmed to continue . . 
> .
> Check the link below . . . I'm serious . . . This is why poetry was 
> invented
> . . .
>
> http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb  1 12:31:56 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:31:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
In-Reply-To: <BE24AB13.806D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BE24AB13.806D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <4738102.1107279116109.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 01, 2005, at 11:48AM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:

>On the Poet of the Month website, there's an amazing poet for February . . .
>Can't catch my breath. . . The images! . . . The music! . . . Has
>Shakespeare been reincarnated? . . . I'm  too overwhelmed to continue . . .
>Check the link below . . . I'm serious . . . This is why poetry was invented
>. . .
>
>http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/
>


Congratulations, Paul!

And wonderful poems.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Feb  1 12:46:05 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:46:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
Message-ID: <d5.20dc9812.2f311a5d@cs.com>

Congrats to Paul!
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Feb  1 06:24:01 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 05:24:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGENNJOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BE24C2F1.8077%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 2/1/05 10:58 AM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
>           taken and to whom nothing must be given."
>                        --Anna Akhmatova

Hey, Hal, why is it that everyone take's Akhmatova so literally about poets
being people "to whom nothing must be given."? I'd sure like more people
giving me stuff. 

Paul

---
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Feb  1 06:25:24 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 05:25:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
In-Reply-To: <004e01c50882$4bd8fe90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BE24C344.8078%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 2/1/05 11:20 AM, "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

> Be still my heart. And I'm the 8982nd person to discover this new
> Shakespeare.

Alas, Tad, would that were true. I'm pretty sure the 8982 visitors to the
site include all of those who've visited over the entire history of the
website's existence.  Google, it ain't.

Paul

---
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From tad at opus40.org  Tue Feb  1 13:29:41 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:29:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
References: <BE24C2F1.8077%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <009401c5088c$00cac6e0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I wish they'd take the other part literally.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month


> On 2/1/05 10:58 AM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
>>           taken and to whom nothing must be given."
>>                        --Anna Akhmatova
>
> Hey, Hal, why is it that everyone take's Akhmatova so literally about 
> poets
> being people "to whom nothing must be given."? I'd sure like more people
> giving me stuff.
>
> Paul
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Feb  1 06:40:09 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 05:40:09 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
In-Reply-To: <009401c5088c$00cac6e0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BE24C6B9.807D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 2/1/05 12:29 PM, "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

> I wish they'd take the other part literally.
> 
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 6:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
> 
> 
>> On 2/1/05 10:58 AM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
>>>           taken and to whom nothing must be given."
>>>                        --Anna Akhmatova
>> 
>> Hey, Hal, why is it that everyone take's Akhmatova so literally about
>> poets
>> being people "to whom nothing must be given."? I'd sure like more people
>> giving me stuff.
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Yeah, especially the IRS.

---
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From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Tue Feb  1 13:58:30 2005
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:58:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
Message-ID: <200502011858.j11Iwao3018563@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:00:09 -0500 **************
>>On the Poet of the Month website, there's an amazing poet for February . . .
>>Can't catch my breath. . . The images! . . . The music! . . . Has
>>Shakespeare been reincarnated? . . . I'm  too overwhelmed to continue . . .
>>Check the link below . . . I'm serious . . . This is why poetry was invented
>>. . .
>>
"He has taught at the University of Santa Clara and currently teach (sic)
English...."

The sky __has__fallen ..
Richard


From tad at opus40.org  Tue Feb  1 14:22:21 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:22:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ben Lerner interview
References: <s1ff4f23.069@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <00ae01c50893$5ccd72b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Kent. Good interview.

I have a review in the same issue...of Annie Finch's "Calendars."


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ben Lerner interview


> For those who might be interested, a conversation between me and Ben
> Lerner, editor of NO: a journal of the arts, and winner of Lannan and
> Hayden Carruth awards for his "sonnet sequence" The Lichtenberg Figures
> (Copper Canyon, 2004), is available at Jacket #26. One can also see here
> the photograph of a Lichtenberg figure on a lightning strike victim!
> 
> http://jacketmagazine.com/26/index.html
> 
> Kent
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb  1 14:44:45 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:44:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month/ fractals?
Message-ID: <s1ff87ef.084@mail.highland.edu>

Congratulations to Paul Lake on the nomination.

After reading your statement on the site, I just wanted to ask you,
Paul, if you feel that "fractal" design in poetry is only achievable
via the traditional metrical line. Or could "fractal" effects be
enacted
through patterned recurrences of other linguistic phenomena: phrases,
words, phonemes, anagrams, paragrams, internal rhymes, visual
configurations, lexical erasures or transformations, etc.

What would give accentual syllabics, for example, a privileged
position in terms of enacting patterns homologous to "nature's design"?
I ask, partly, because the matter of fractals (Lichtenberg Figures)
comes up
in the interview with Ben Lerner I mentioned earlier today.

By the way, is that interview at Perihelion the one you mentioned
would be coming out in CPR?

Kent


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Feb  1 07:58:36 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 06:58:36 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ben Lerner interview
In-Reply-To: <00ae01c50893$5ccd72b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BE24D91C.8084%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 2/1/05 1:22 PM, "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

> I have a review in the same issue...of Annie Finch's "Calendars."
> 
> 
> Tad Richards

Enjoyed your review of Annie Finch's Calendars. My first visit to Jacket.

Paul

---
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Feb  1 08:03:52 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:03:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month/ fractals?
In-Reply-To: <s1ff87ef.084@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <BE24DA58.8087%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 2/1/05 1:44 PM, "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

> Congratulations to Paul Lake on the nomination.
> 
> After reading your statement on the site, I just wanted to ask you,
> Paul, if you feel that "fractal" design in poetry is only achievable
> via the traditional metrical line. Or could "fractal" effects be
> enacted
> through patterned recurrences of other linguistic phenomena: phrases,
> words, phonemes, anagrams, paragrams, internal rhymes, visual
> configurations, lexical erasures or transformations, etc.
> 
> What would give accentual syllabics, for example, a privileged
> position in terms of enacting patterns homologous to "nature's design"?
> I ask, partly, because the matter of fractals (Lichtenberg Figures)
> comes up
> in the interview with Ben Lerner I mentioned earlier today.
> 
> By the way, is that interview at Perihelion the one you mentioned
> would be coming out in CPR?
> 
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
To answer your first question, yes, I think that fractal design can be
achievable, and sometime is achieved, in non-metrical poetry, as I argue in
the essay from which that small excerpt is reprinted. I do, however, argue
that it is more often achieved in metrical verse for reasons I explain in
the essay--"Disorderly Orders: Free Verse, Chaos, and the Tradition," which
you can find in the archives of CPR or in print in The Southern  Review.

Speaking of CPR, my essay (not interview; that was in Joan Houlihan's ezine)
should appear any day or so in the February issue of the journal.

Paul

---
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Feb  1 15:25:07 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:25:07 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ben Lerner interview
References: <BE24D91C.8084%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <00ae01c5089c$1ef94460$c8a83852@yourpk9x5fuc06>

To Tad Richards, a wonderful review, compliments! I contacted a week ago
Annie Finch to contribute to the Corner, she answered she'll be back as soon
as she can. I will have to link her page to this writing.

and

To Kent Johnson, welcome back with an intersting interview. Impressive even
if predictable are those Lichtenberg figures, hopefully they will be used
positively in science. On my blog I talked two days ago of these beautiful
drawings by the frost that Charles Rogler photographed, here is the link to
the New York Times, they also have a slide show:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/30/realestate/30habi.html?oref=login

and now to see _Who Is The Poet Of The Month_.....
I already peeped :-)
Wow, that's Paul Lake!

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Feb  1 15:33:03 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:33:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
References: <BE24C6B9.807D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <00e001c5089d$3b06db80$c8a83852@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Let's put it this way:

"A poet is someone from whom Nothing Must be
taken (literally) & to whom lots of good stuff has to be given (literally
again)"

Mole of the Lake from the Hal(l)

From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:40 PM


> On 2/1/05 12:29 PM, "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
>
> > I wish they'd take the other part literally.
> >
> >
> > Tad Richards
> > www.opus40.org
> > From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >> On 2/1/05 10:58 AM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
> >>>           taken and to whom nothing must be given."
> >>>                        --Anna Akhmatova
> >>
> >> Hey, Hal, why is it that everyone take's Akhmatova so literally about
> >> poets
> >> being people "to whom nothing must be given."? I'd sure like more
people
> >> giving me stuff.
> >>
> >> Paul




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  1 16:58:25 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:58:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
In-Reply-To: <BE24C2F1.8077%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEOIJOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    > Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
{    >           taken and to whom nothing must be given."
{    >                        --Anna Akhmatova
{    
{    Hey, Hal, why is it that everyone take's Akhmatova so literally about poets
{    being people "to whom nothing must be given."? I'd sure like more people
{    giving me stuff. 
{    
{    Paul

I would too, Paul. And I don't care how A's taken
as long as she's taken.

Hal



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb  1 17:44:25 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:44:25 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month/fractals?
Message-ID: <s1ffb215.015@mail.highland.edu>

Paul Lake said:

"My first visit to Jacket."

Your *first* visit to Jacket? 

Well, there is lots there, as you no doubt have noticed. Of particular
interest to you would be Eliot Weinberger's famous essay on the "New
Formalism" somewhere in there, if you haven't seen it. You won't like it
much, I don't think, but variety is the spice of life... How does one
get hold of the essay excerpted in Perihelion? 

And Tad, that's a nice piece on Finch. I admire her catholicity in
matters of formal possibility. Nice going.

Thanks for the welcome, Anny. Busy and busier here, so not a great deal
of posting from me, probably. Unless I get the bug, which is always
possible.

Kent


From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb  1 18:36:22 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:36:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ben Lerner interview
In-Reply-To: <s1ff4f23.069@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s1ff4f23.069@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <5deb302755c983f872b6e8140fff9c30@mac.com>


On Feb 1, 2005, at 10:42 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> For those who might be interested, a conversation between me and Ben
> Lerner, editor of NO: a journal of the arts, and winner of Lannan and
> Hayden Carruth awards for his "sonnet sequence" The Lichtenberg Figures
> (Copper Canyon, 2004), is available at Jacket #26. One can also see 
> here
> the photograph of a Lichtenberg figure on a lightning strike victim!
>
> http://jacketmagazine.com/26/index.html
>
> Kent


Kent,

I thought your questios were more interesting than the answers. I'd 
hate to have to choose between strategic fulfillment and strategic 
disappointment of a cultural framework.

Mike S.



From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb  1 18:44:35 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:44:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ben Lerner interview
In-Reply-To: <00ae01c50893$5ccd72b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <s1ff4f23.069@mail.highland.edu>
	<00ae01c50893$5ccd72b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <73b2cd848be8c5e03479a61ddc11f42d@mac.com>


On Feb 1, 2005, at 2:22 PM, The Old Mole wrote:

>
> I have a review in the same issue...of Annie Finch's "Calendars."
>

Well done, Old Mole.



From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au  Wed Feb  2 00:58:00 2005
From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:58:00 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 8, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <200502011700.j11H08An001253@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20050202055800.3576.qmail@web51409.mail.yahoo.com>


Ershad, i remember seeing your poem. However, the New-Poetry mail list will not display your poem permanently. I believe that poems are to be submitted only for critique purposes. 


Dear Friends
I submitted a poem title Mountain and Ocean. Now I can not see it.Please support me.Please also let me know how do I submit more poems.

Ershad Mazumder






Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings




---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Feb  2 08:22:39 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:22:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY SUPER HIGHWAY: GREAT POETRY EXCHANGE
Message-ID: <87.205cadeb.2f322e1f@aol.com>

From: Rick Lupert [mailto:Rick at PoetrySuperHighway.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:38 PM
To: pshlist at yahoogroups.com
Subject: POETRY SUPER HIGHWAY announces 4th annual GREAT POETRY EXCHANGE

The 4th Annual Poetry Super Highway
Great Poetry Exchange
The mission of the Poetry Super Highway
is to expose as many people to as many
other people's poetry as possible.

What?
In February 2005, the Poetry Super Highway will coordinate a great free
exchange of poetry publications amongst poets worldwide.

It's not a contest. There are no judges, entry fees, winners, or losers.

Last year, 78 poets participated both sending their book and receiving
another poet's book from a randomly selected other participant

By agreeing to participate, someone will be exposed to your poetry, and
you will be exposed to someone else's poetry.


How?
To participate you must volunteer to mail one copy of one poetry book
that you have written to one other person participating.? Just one book.
In exchange, you will receive in the mail one copy of one poetry book
written by another participating poet.

E-books are not eligible for the Great Poetry Exchange. Your book must
be physical entity.? Even if it's self published, or one of one that you
printed from your computer and stapled together...but please no e-books.

(We are working on a special e-book only event for later in the year so
stay tuned for that!)

E-mail? <mailto:GPE at PoetrySuperHighway.com> GPE at PoetrySuperHighway.com

Include in your e-mail:

The title of your book

A description of your book no longer than 50 words.

Your name

Your mailing address

Your website address (if you have one.)

In the middle of March, we will randomly assign the books to each
participant and email to you the name and address of the person you are
supposed to send your book to.
We will also list your book and description on
<http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/pshgpe.html> this web page along with the
link to your website for all to see. In addition we will list the new
books in our weekly e-mailed update which goes out to thousands of
people.
Please note, as the Great Poetry Exchange is open to everyone on planet
Earth, it's possible that you will be required to send your book to
someone outside of your own country which will, of course cost you more
in postage than it would to send it domestically.
Also, we'll ask that you send us an e-mail in March once your book has
actually been sent so we can keep track and make sure that all
participants who send a book also get one.

You also must agree to send out your book within 2 weeks of being
notified of who to send your book to.
Get all the details at http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/
--

Lupert: It's The Website - & - Poetry Super Highway
? ? ? ? ? http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/

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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  2 09:22:27 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:22:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  George Hitchcock, "Group Portrait"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEPHJOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Group Portrait

the family is gathered here is this picture
Uncle Ted on the left smoking consonants
Aunt Beth in her mechanical nightgown
father on his motorbike mother getting
refueled the sons and daughters busy
becoming monuments   grandfather the lion
of lounge bars grandmother who took in
the sky on laundry-lines and hung
her money out to dry under heat lamps

they've got style this family
with its epaulettes and sciatica
they're thinkers they make fans
to cool the ants and teach bees
how to pomade their moustaches
originals that's what they are
their faces waxed like apples
their gloves cut off at the knuckles

they study they learn to turn leaves
into lighter fluid they parse sentences
from almanacs they become famous
flying about the moon on mothwings
when they grow old they embroider
sparks and go to Victor Herbert on
Wednesday afternoons trailing innocents
behind them kites on umbilical cords

--George Hitchcock

fr. *Mirror on Horseback*, 1979

and in *One-Man Boat: The George Hitchcock Reader*
[Ashland, Oregon: Story Line Press, 2003]


Hal     

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  2 10:34:54 2005
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:34:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] WCU 2005
Message-ID: <20050202153454.14099.qmail@web52606.mail.yahoo.com>

The West Chester Poetry Conference's website is update
for the 2005 conference:

http://www.wcupa.edu/_academics/sch_cas/poetry/index.html


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Feb  2 11:00:26 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:00:26 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brief for the Defense
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE935@URANIUM.ripon.college>

A Brief For The Defense


Sorrow everywhere. Slaughter everywhere. If babies
are not starving someplace, they are starving
somewhere else. With flies in their nostrils.
But we enjoy our lives because that's what God wants.
Otherwise the mornings before summer dawn would not 
be made so fine. The Bengal tiger would not
be fashioned so miraculously well. The poor women
at the fountain are laughing together between
the suffering they have known and the awfulness
in their future, smiling and laughing while somebody
in the village is very sick. There is laughter
every day in the terrible streets of Calcutta,
and the women laugh in the cages of Bombay.
If we deny our happiness, resist our satisfaction,
we lessen the importance of their deprivation.
We must risk delight. We can do without pleasure,
but not delight. Not enjoyment. We must have
the stubbornness to accept our gladness in the ruthless
furnace of this world. To make injustice the only 
measure of our attention is to praise the Devil.
If the locomotive of the Lord runs us down,
we should give thanks that the end had magnitude.
We must admit that there will be music despite everything.
We stand at the prow again of a small ship
anchored late at night in the tiny port
looking over to the sleeping island: the waterfront
is three shuttered cafes and one naked light burning.
To hear the faint sounds of oars in the silence as a rowboat
comes slowly out and then goes back is truly worth
all the years of sorrow that are to come.

-- Jack Gilbert



============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================

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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Wed Feb  2 11:28:57 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:28:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brief for the Defense
In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE935@URANIUM.ripon.college>
References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE935@URANIUM.ripon.college>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0502021126120.2460@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

This is a huge poem which I greatly admire.  His work has taught me what
it means to have ambition for a poem.  To not settle for what is easy or
easily accessible, pretty, clever, etc.  But to find something, well,
useful for one's life.

The only place I halt is the line about the women laughing in the cages
of Bombay.  He pushes it.





From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  2 11:55:00 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:55:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A:  Russell Edson fields a grounder
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEPOJOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Mark Tursi: Is the choice to be a ?hermit??at least in terms of the
poetry world?a political choice? That is, what are your reasons for
largely disengaging from the contemporary literary scene?

Edson: "Hermit" is one of the ways of life one naturally falls into
without even noticing it. A giraffe doesn't think of itself as a giraffe.
It just happens to be a giraffe without having to think about it.

Tursi: Another related question I?ve been thinking about has to do
with your fairly significant ?underground? or ?cult? following. There
are a lot of other poets, students, and literary-types that read your
work, and perhaps even more writers today who are clearly
influenced by your work. Yet, you are still largely marginalized by
the wider academic and literary community, and often not included
in the so-called canon. Why do you think this is?

Edson: If my work, as you put it, "is still largely marginalized by the
wider academic and literary community," it's probably because they
don't care for it. Being, as you suggest, somewhat of a hermit, I've
never thought of myself as marginal or mainstream, just happy to be
writing. Of course the literary community is very much a social club,
and I'm really too distracted for organized fun.

http://www.webdelsol.com/Double_Room/issue_four/Russell_Edson.html


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Feb  2 18:04:43 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:04:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Eliot's letters
Message-ID: <1dc.35cad850.2f32b68b@cs.com>

A fascinating first-person account:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1400192,00.html
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From MillB at aol.com  Wed Feb  2 18:20:05 2005
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:20:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Connections
Message-ID: <78.6bd57f70.2f32ba25@aol.com>

Greetings,
 
 
Does anyone know of writers (living or dead) whose connection to other  
writers was what helped get their work into print?  
 
The "connection" could be student/teacher or lovers or a mentorship,  editor, 
friend, enemy, translator, residency, happenstance,  accident. 
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Mill
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb  2 18:57:34 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 17:57:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
Message-ID: <s20114ac.099@mail.highland.edu>

Mill,

Speaking for myself, every single poem I have ever published is because
the editor was a friend, distant relative, lover or ex-lover with
secrets to protect, mentor, former professor, or acquaintance whose ass
I had kissed in some way or another. Or it was because he or she owed me
some kind of favor, in return for one I had done for him or her in full
expectation that it would be returned in good time. Once I threatened an
editor. I said, if you don't publish my poem, I'll say what I saw you
doing in the bathroom with that guy at the MLA. I've done even worse
things, which would include the use of opium.

I suspect I am not alone. Look at all the people on this list who
publish and win prizes and get selected as Poet of the Month, and so on.
It's a dog eat dog world out there, and slaves are traded for rum from
the colonies. The metropolis and the periphery are locked in invisible
law.

I could go on. But there are indeed many ways one may expertly use
connections in this field. They are sometimes direct and sometimes
indirect, these uses. But they are always there and at hand, and this is
part of the secret fun of poetry. Its ancient, dirty underclothes, as it
were. And what we don't say is that we love the smell of them. 

And poetry goes on, rhymed, or not.

Kent


>Greetings,
 
 
Does anyone know of writers (living or dead) whose connection to other 

writers was what helped get their work into print?  
 
The "connection" could be student/teacher or lovers or a mentorship, 
editor, 
friend, enemy, translator, residency, happenstance,  accident. 
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Mill



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Feb  2 19:23:31 2005
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:23:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] MUG (undiscovered) Poet Interviews...
In-Reply-To: <s20114ac.099@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s20114ac.099@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <20050202192124.T18767@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Well, the live chat thing didn't really take off. That could partially be 
my fault, though, I guess.

In any case, here's a new feature that will help introduce you to some of 
the undiscovered poets currently wrangling words to the world wide web:

http://www.mallasch.com/mug/poetry/interviews-chloe-ryan.php

Suggestions, etc., are very much welcome...

-kpaul



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Feb  2 22:35:57 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:35:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] AN ARTIST
Message-ID: <6a.4e34f84c.2f32f61d@aol.com>

There is almost no chance the formatting will work out (damn long lines
of Jeffers) but I wanted to post this poem last week when Tad showed us 
Opus 40, in tribute to artists like Harvey Fite
(http://www.opus40.org/).
--
AN ARTIST

That sculptor we knew, the passionate-eyed son of a quarryman,
Who astonished Rome and Paris in his meteor youth and then was gone, at his 
high ride of triumphs,
Without reason or good-bye: I have seen him again lately, after twenty years, 
but not in Europe.

In desert hills I rode a horse slack-kneed with thirst. Down a steep slope a 
dancing swarm
Of yellow butterflies over a shining rock made me hope water. We slid down to 
the place,
The spring was bitter but the horse drunk. I imagined wearings of an old path 
from the that wet rock
Ran down the canyon; I followed, soon they were lost, I came to a stone 
valley in which it seemed
No man nor his mount had ever ventured, you wondered whether even a vulture?d 
ever spread sail there.
There were stones of strange form under a cleft in the far hill; I tethered 
the horse to a rock
And scrambled over. A heap like a stone torrent, a moraine,
But monstrously formed limbs of broken carving appeared in the rock-fall, 
enormous breasts, defaced heads
Of giants, the eyes calm through the brute veils of fracture. It was natural 
then to climb higher and go in
Up the cleft gate. The canyon was a sheer-walled crack winding at the 
entrance, but around its bend
The walls grew dreadful with stone giants, presences growing out of the rigid 
precipice, that strove
In dream between stone and life, intense to cast their chaos?or to enter and 
return?stone-fleshed, nerve-stretched
Great bodies ever more beautiful and more heavy with pain, they seemed 
leading to some unbearable
Consummation of the ecstasy?but there, troll among Titans, the bearded master 
of the place accosted me
In a cold anger, a mallet in his hand, filthy and ragged. There was no 
kindness in that man?s mind,
But after he had driven me down to the entrance he spoke a little.

                                        The
    merciless sun had found the slot now
To hide in, and lit for the work of that stone lamp-bowl a sky almost, I 
thought, abominably beautiful;
While our lost artist we used to admire: for now I knew him: spoke of his 
passion.

        He said, ?Marble?
White marble is fit to model a snow-mountain: let man be modest. Nor bronze: 
I am bound to have my tool
In my material, no irrelevances. I found this pit of dark-gray freestone, 
fine-grained, and tough enough
To make sketches that under any weathering will last my lifetime?

The town is eight miles off, I can fetch food and no one follows me home. I 
have water and a cave
Here; and no possible lack of material. I need, therefore, nothing. As to 
companions, I make them.
And models? They are seldom wanted; I know a Basque shepherd I sometimes use; 
and a woman of the town.
What more? Sympathy? Praise? I have never desired them and also I have never 
deserved them. I will not show you
More than the spalls you saw by accident.
                            What I see is the enormous beauty of things, but 
what I attempt
Is nothing to that. I am helpless toward that.
It is only form in stone the mould of some ideal humanity that might be 
worthy to be
Under that lightning, Animalcules that God (if he were given to laughter) 
might omit  to laugh at.

Those children of my hands are tortured because they feel,? he said, ?the 
scorn of the outer magnificence.
They are giants in agony. They have seen from my eyes
The man-destroying beauty of the dawns over their notch yonder, and all the 
obliterating stars.
But in their eyes they have peace. I have lived a little and I think 
Peace marrying pain alone can breed that excellence in the luckless race 
might make it decent
To exist at all on the star-lit stone breast.

                            I hope,? he said, ?that when I grow old and the 
chisel drops,
I may crawl out on the ledge of the rock and die like a wolf.?

                                        These fragments are all I can 
remember,
These in the flare of the desert evening. Having been driven so brutally 
forth I never returned;
Yet I respect him enough to keep his name and the place secret. I hope that 
some other traveller
May stumble on that ravine of Titans after their maker has died. While he 
lives, let him alone.

--Robinson Jeffers, Cawdor, The Collected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers (Vol. 
1), edited by Tim Hunt, Stanford U. Press, 1988
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  2 23:36:57 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:36:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] AN ARTIST
In-Reply-To: <6a.4e34f84c.2f32f61d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEAOJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Actually, Jim, when opened out to full screen, the long lines in this
work fine--that's in MS Outlook. The only problem I see is
that the "The" in "The merciless sun . . ." got detached and sits
all lonely like on the line above.

Hal
  There is almost no chance the formatting will work out (damn long lines
  of Jeffers) but I wanted to post this poem last week when Tad showed us 
  Opus 40, in tribute to artists like Harvey Fite
  (http://www.opus40.org/).
  --
  AN ARTIST

  That sculptor we knew, the passionate-eyed son of a quarryman,
  Who astonished Rome and Paris in his meteor youth and then was gone, at his high ride of triumphs,
  Without reason or good-bye: I have seen him again lately, after twenty years, but not in Europe.

  In desert hills I rode a horse slack-kneed with thirst. Down a steep slope a dancing swarm
  Of yellow butterflies over a shining rock made me hope water. We slid down to the place,
  The spring was bitter but the horse drunk. I imagined wearings of an old path from the that wet rock
  Ran down the canyon; I followed, soon they were lost, I came to a stone valley in which it seemed
  No man nor his mount had ever ventured, you wondered whether even a vulture?d ever spread sail there.
  There were stones of strange form under a cleft in the far hill; I tethered the horse to a rock
  And scrambled over. A heap like a stone torrent, a moraine,
  But monstrously formed limbs of broken carving appeared in the rock-fall, enormous breasts, defaced heads
  Of giants, the eyes calm through the brute veils of fracture. It was natural then to climb higher and go in
  Up the cleft gate. The canyon was a sheer-walled crack winding at the entrance, but around its bend
  The walls grew dreadful with stone giants, presences growing out of the rigid precipice, that strove
  In dream between stone and life, intense to cast their chaos?or to enter and return?stone-fleshed, nerve-stretched
  Great bodies ever more beautiful and more heavy with pain, they seemed leading to some unbearable
  Consummation of the ecstasy?but there, troll among Titans, the bearded master of the place accosted me
  In a cold anger, a mallet in his hand, filthy and ragged. There was no kindness in that man?s mind,
  But after he had driven me down to the entrance he spoke a little.

  The
  merciless sun had found the slot now
  To hide in, and lit for the work of that stone lamp-bowl a sky almost, I thought, abominably beautiful;
  While our lost artist we used to admire: for now I knew him: spoke of his passion.

  He said, ?Marble?
  White marble is fit to model a snow-mountain: let man be modest. Nor bronze: I am bound to have my tool
  In my material, no irrelevances. I found this pit of dark-gray freestone, fine-grained, and tough enough
  To make sketches that under any weathering will last my lifetime?

  The town is eight miles off, I can fetch food and no one follows me home. I have water and a cave
  Here; and no possible lack of material. I need, therefore, nothing. As to companions, I make them.
  And models? They are seldom wanted; I know a Basque shepherd I sometimes use; and a woman of the town.
  What more? Sympathy? Praise? I have never desired them and also I have never deserved them. I will not show you
  More than the spalls you saw by accident.
  What I see is the enormous beauty of things, but what I attempt
  Is nothing to that. I am helpless toward that.
  It is only form in stone the mould of some ideal humanity that might be worthy to be
  Under that lightning, Animalcules that God (if he were given to laughter) might omit  to laugh at.

  Those children of my hands are tortured because they feel,? he said, ?the scorn of the outer magnificence.
  They are giants in agony. They have seen from my eyes
  The man-destroying beauty of the dawns over their notch yonder, and all the obliterating stars.
  But in their eyes they have peace. I have lived a little and I think 
  Peace marrying pain alone can breed that excellence in the luckless race might make it decent
  To exist at all on the star-lit stone breast.

  I hope,? he said, ?that when I grow old and the chisel drops,
  I may crawl out on the ledge of the rock and die like a wolf.?

  These fragments are all I can remember,
  These in the flare of the desert evening. Having been driven so brutally forth I never returned;
  Yet I respect him enough to keep his name and the place secret. I hope that some other traveller
  May stumble on that ravine of Titans after their maker has died. While he lives, let him alone.

  --Robinson Jeffers, Cawdor, The Collected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers (Vol. 1), edited by Tim Hunt, Stanford U. Press, 1988
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Feb  3 08:14:09 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:14:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] AN ARTIST
References: <6a.4e34f84c.2f32f61d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001301c509f2$41dac880$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Jim - this is wonderful. I had never seen it before. I'm going to post it to my Opus 40 blog, although that is certainly no place for its long lines.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:35 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] AN ARTIST


  There is almost no chance the formatting will work out (damn long lines
  of Jeffers) but I wanted to post this poem last week when Tad showed us 
  Opus 40, in tribute to artists like Harvey Fite
  (http://www.opus40.org/).
  --
  AN ARTIST

  That sculptor we knew, the passionate-eyed son of a quarryman,
  Who astonished Rome and Paris in his meteor youth and then was gone, at his high ride of triumphs,
  Without reason or good-bye: I have seen him again lately, after twenty years, but not in Europe.

  In desert hills I rode a horse slack-kneed with thirst. Down a steep slope a dancing swarm
  Of yellow butterflies over a shining rock made me hope water. We slid down to the place,
  The spring was bitter but the horse drunk. I imagined wearings of an old path from the that wet rock
  Ran down the canyon; I followed, soon they were lost, I came to a stone valley in which it seemed
  No man nor his mount had ever ventured, you wondered whether even a vulture?d ever spread sail there.
  There were stones of strange form under a cleft in the far hill; I tethered the horse to a rock
  And scrambled over. A heap like a stone torrent, a moraine,
  But monstrously formed limbs of broken carving appeared in the rock-fall, enormous breasts, defaced heads
  Of giants, the eyes calm through the brute veils of fracture. It was natural then to climb higher and go in
  Up the cleft gate. The canyon was a sheer-walled crack winding at the entrance, but around its bend
  The walls grew dreadful with stone giants, presences growing out of the rigid precipice, that strove
  In dream between stone and life, intense to cast their chaos?or to enter and return?stone-fleshed, nerve-stretched
  Great bodies ever more beautiful and more heavy with pain, they seemed leading to some unbearable
  Consummation of the ecstasy?but there, troll among Titans, the bearded master of the place accosted me
  In a cold anger, a mallet in his hand, filthy and ragged. There was no kindness in that man?s mind,
  But after he had driven me down to the entrance he spoke a little.

  The
  merciless sun had found the slot now
  To hide in, and lit for the work of that stone lamp-bowl a sky almost, I thought, abominably beautiful;
  While our lost artist we used to admire: for now I knew him: spoke of his passion.

  He said, ?Marble?
  White marble is fit to model a snow-mountain: let man be modest. Nor bronze: I am bound to have my tool
  In my material, no irrelevances. I found this pit of dark-gray freestone, fine-grained, and tough enough
  To make sketches that under any weathering will last my lifetime?

  The town is eight miles off, I can fetch food and no one follows me home. I have water and a cave
  Here; and no possible lack of material. I need, therefore, nothing. As to companions, I make them.
  And models? They are seldom wanted; I know a Basque shepherd I sometimes use; and a woman of the town.
  What more? Sympathy? Praise? I have never desired them and also I have never deserved them. I will not show you
  More than the spalls you saw by accident.
  What I see is the enormous beauty of things, but what I attempt
  Is nothing to that. I am helpless toward that.
  It is only form in stone the mould of some ideal humanity that might be worthy to be
  Under that lightning, Animalcules that God (if he were given to laughter) might omit  to laugh at.

  Those children of my hands are tortured because they feel,? he said, ?the scorn of the outer magnificence.
  They are giants in agony. They have seen from my eyes
  The man-destroying beauty of the dawns over their notch yonder, and all the obliterating stars.
  But in their eyes they have peace. I have lived a little and I think 
  Peace marrying pain alone can breed that excellence in the luckless race might make it decent
  To exist at all on the star-lit stone breast.

  I hope,? he said, ?that when I grow old and the chisel drops,
  I may crawl out on the ledge of the rock and die like a wolf.?

  These fragments are all I can remember,
  These in the flare of the desert evening. Having been driven so brutally forth I never returned;
  Yet I respect him enough to keep his name and the place secret. I hope that some other traveller
  May stumble on that ravine of Titans after their maker has died. While he lives, let him alone.

  --Robinson Jeffers, Cawdor, The Collected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers (Vol. 1), edited by Tim Hunt, Stanford U. Press, 1988



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  3 08:56:40 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 05:56:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poster
In-Reply-To: <001301c509f2$41dac880$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <20050203135640.76940.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com>

can you or anyone please disperse this poster to all
and sundry?
best wishes,
Paul Murphy
www.theengine.net


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. 
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Feb  3 09:06:14 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:06:14 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] AN ARTIST
Message-ID: <12c.56a800f7.2f3389d6@aol.com>

Tad,
In that third (?) line of the second stanza,
"wearings of an old path from the that wet rock,"
delete the stray 'the'.  (I knew a typo or two 
would slip thru, sorry.) Also, Hal asked about the 
"The" that starts the third stanza, in my edition 
it's set on a line by itself, but it's pushed 
almost over to the right margin. His publishers 
must have gone thru hell. Also, all of the short 
lines, like "triumphs" and "Europe" are 
continuations of the previous line...and by 
convention get indented, and making for an arbitrary 
linebreak created by the demands of the right 
margin set. And there are other idiosyncrasies
in the look as  posted. Anyone who wants a copy
in Word/.rtf, let me know backchannel.
Finnegan


> AN ARTIST
> 
> That sculptor we knew, the passionate-eyed son of a quarryman,
> Who astonished Rome and Paris in his meteor youth and then was gone, at his 
> high ride of triumphs,
> Without reason or good-bye: I have seen him again lately, after twenty 
> years, but not in Europe.
> 
> In desert hills I rode a horse slack-kneed with thirst. Down a steep slope a 
> dancing swarm
> Of yellow butterflies over a shining rock made me hope water. We slid down 
> to the place,
> The spring was bitter but the horse drunk. I imagined wearings of an old 
> path from the that wet rock
> Ran down the canyon; I followed, soon they were lost, I came to a stone 
> valley in which it seemed
> No man nor his mount had ever ventured, you wondered whether even a vulture?
> d ever spread sail there.
> There were stones of strange form under a cleft in the far hill; I tethered 
> the horse to a rock
> And scrambled over. A heap like a stone torrent, a moraine,
> But monstrously formed limbs of broken carving appeared in the rock-fall, 
> enormous breasts, defaced heads
> Of giants, the eyes calm through the brute veils of fracture. It was natural 
> then to climb higher and go in
> Up the cleft gate. The canyon was a sheer-walled crack winding at the 
> entrance, but around its bend
> The walls grew dreadful with stone giants, presences growing out of the 
> rigid precipice, that strove
> In dream between stone and life, intense to cast their chaos?or to enter and 
> return?stone-fleshed, nerve-stretched
> Great bodies ever more beautiful and more heavy with pain, they seemed 
> leading to some unbearable
> Consummation of the ecstasy?but there, troll among Titans, the bearded 
> master of the place accosted me
> In a cold anger, a mallet in his hand, filthy and ragged. There was no 
> kindness in that man?s mind,
> But after he had driven me down to the entrance he spoke a little.
> 
> The
> merciless sun had found the slot now
> To hide in, and lit for the work of that stone lamp-bowl a sky almost, I 
> thought, abominably beautiful;
> While our lost artist we used to admire: for now I knew him: spoke of his 
> passion.
> 
> He said, ?Marble?
> White marble is fit to model a snow-mountain: let man be modest. Nor bronze: 
> I am bound to have my tool
> In my material, no irrelevances. I found this pit of dark-gray freestone, 
> fine-grained, and tough enough
> To make sketches that under any weathering will last my lifetime?
> 
> The town is eight miles off, I can fetch food and no one follows me home. I 
> have water and a cave
> Here; and no possible lack of material. I need, therefore, nothing. As to 
> companions, I make them.
> And models? They are seldom wanted; I know a Basque shepherd I sometimes 
> use; and a woman of the town.
> What more? Sympathy? Praise? I have never desired them and also I have never 
> deserved them. I will not show you
> More than the spalls you saw by accident.
> What I see is the enormous beauty of things, but what I attempt
> Is nothing to that. I am helpless toward that.
> It is only form in stone the mould of some ideal humanity that might be 
> worthy to be
> Under that lightning, Animalcules that God (if he were given to laughter) 
> might omit  to laugh at.
> 
> Those children of my hands are tortured because they feel,? he said, ?the 
> scorn of the outer magnificence.
> They are giants in agony. They have seen from my eyes
> The man-destroying beauty of the dawns over their notch yonder, and all the 
> obliterating stars.
> But in their eyes they have peace. I have lived a little and I think 
> Peace marrying pain alone can breed that excellence in the luckless race 
> might make it decent
> To exist at all on the star-lit stone breast.
> 
> I hope,? he said, ?that when I grow old and the chisel drops,
> I may crawl out on the ledge of the rock and die like a wolf.?
> 
> These fragments are all I can remember,
> These in the flare of the desert evening. Having been driven so brutally 
> forth I never returned;
> Yet I respect him enough to keep his name and the place secret. I hope that 
> some other traveller
> May stumble on that ravine of Titans after their maker has died. While he 
> lives, let him alone.
> 
> --Robinson Jeffers, Cawdor, The Collected Poetry of Robinson Jeffers (Vol. 
> 1), edited by Tim Hunt, Stanford U. Press, 1988
> 

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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  3 10:31:55 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:31:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence
In-Reply-To: <1dc.35cad850.2f32b68b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20050203153155.94642.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>

emotional intelligence: The attributes of
self-awareness, impulse control, persistence,
confidence, self-motivation, empathy, social deftness,
trustworthiness, adaptability, and a talent for
collaboration.

I suppose all of these attributes depend largely on
context.  I mean, some people will demonstrate greater
amounts of emotional intelligence if they feel they
are with people they know and trust.  But these
attributes run counter to what we know about the
system we live under, capitalism, which is concerned
with greed, selfishness and individualism.


		
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Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  3 11:02:20 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:02:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] emotional intelligence
References: <20050203153155.94642.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01ce01c50a09$be49faf0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> emotional intelligence: The attributes of
> self-awareness, impulse control, persistence,
> confidence, self-motivation, empathy, social deftness,
> trustworthiness, adaptability, and a talent for
> collaboration.
>
> I suppose all of these attributes depend largely on
> context.  I mean, some people will demonstrate greater
> amounts of emotional intelligence if they feel they
> are with people they know and trust.  But these
> attributes run counter to what we know about the
> system we live under, capitalism, which is concerned
> with greed, selfishness and individualism.

. . . and shooting little black baby girls twixt the eyes--with copious 
laughter.  Now let's get back to poetry.

--Bob G. 




From tad at opus40.org  Thu Feb  3 11:02:48 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:02:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poster
References: <20050203135640.76940.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01c50a09$d17e5cb0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I love the poster.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Murphy" <clitophon at yahoo.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 8:56 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] poster


> can you or anyone please disperse this poster to all
> and sundry?
> best wishes,
> Paul Murphy
> www.theengine.net
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  3 11:33:00 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:33:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Promotion
References: <s1ff4f23.069@mail.highland.edu><00ae01c50893$5ccd72b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<73b2cd848be8c5e03479a61ddc11f42d@mac.com>
Message-ID: <01db01c50a0e$06c34e90$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Three of my early poems, with flattery, can be visited at

http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2005/02/creation-of-bob-grumman.html

Interesting side-note: Geof Huth, whose blog I'm directing you to, and I 
have had many arguments as heated, tedious and interminable as those I've 
had with certain people here.  We remain good friends, though--perhaps 
because we don't call each other "ingenuous" or question each other's 
motives.  We do call each other names, though.  Make that, I call him names. 
I'm not sure he calls me names.

--Bob G. 




From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Thu Feb  3 12:29:44 2005
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 09:29:44 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Our Bob,
	BurstnormPlainsongIowaUnfairBlahStuffItem #7
In-Reply-To: <200502031700.j13H03Al024946@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050203092532.00c3bb30@incoming.verizon.net>

At 12:00 PM 2/3/2005 -0500, Our Friendly Bob wrote:
>  We do call each other names, though.  Make that,
I call him names.

Emotional Intelligence, ever-striving to break through?

Friendly Barry the Aunti-Bob
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb  3 13:11:49 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:11:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Our Bob,
	BurstnormPlainsongIowaUnfairBlahStuffItem #7
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050203092532.00c3bb30@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <200502031700.j13H03Al024946@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <42022315.23582.96F3D9@localhost>

> At 12:00 PM 2/3/2005 -0500, Our Friendly Bob wrote:
>     We do call each other names, though. Make that,
> I call him names. 

On 3 Feb 2005 at 9:29, Barry Spacks wrote:
> Emotional Intelligence, ever-striving to break through?
> Friendly Barry the Aunti-Bob

Ever since JforJames has forbidden me to argue with Bob on the list, 
I've chosen not to read Bob's posts, so I don't know if Bob was 
talking about me or not in the "call him names" reference -- but 
whether it was me or not to whom he referred, at leat Bob admits now 
that he calls other people names. What an admission to have to make, 
though, eh? 

Marcus




From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  3 13:47:20 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:47:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] AN ARTIST
In-Reply-To: <12c.56a800f7.2f3389d6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEBMJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


  Tad,
  In that third (?) line of the second stanza,
  "wearings of an old path from the that wet rock,"
  delete the stray 'the'.  (I knew a typo or two 
  would slip thru, sorry.) Also, Hal asked about the 
  "The" that starts the third stanza, in my edition 
  it's set on a line by itself, but it's pushed 
  almost over to the right margin.  


  Leaving only one line in the entire poem that doesn't begin with
  a cap?

  Hal 
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From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Feb  3 14:59:50 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:59:50 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Our Bob,
	BurstnormPlainsongIowaUnfairBlahStuffItem #7
In-Reply-To: <42022315.23582.96F3D9@localhost>
Message-ID: <ECOWS04MKufVma0osA9000015dd@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>

Who cares? 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Marcus Bales
> Sent: 03 February 2005 18:12
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Our 
> Bob,BurstnormPlainsongIowaUnfairBlahStuffItem #7
> 
> > At 12:00 PM 2/3/2005 -0500, Our Friendly Bob wrote:
> >     We do call each other names, though. Make that, I call 
> him names.
> 
> On 3 Feb 2005 at 9:29, Barry Spacks wrote:
> > Emotional Intelligence, ever-striving to break through?
> > Friendly Barry the Aunti-Bob
> 
> Ever since JforJames has forbidden me to argue with Bob on 
> the list, I've chosen not to read Bob's posts, so I don't 
> know if Bob was talking about me or not in the "call him 
> names" reference -- but whether it was me or not to whom he 
> referred, at leat Bob admits now that he calls other people 
> names. What an admission to have to make, though, eh? 
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 




From MillB at aol.com  Thu Feb  3 15:00:13 2005
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:00:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
Message-ID: <e1.c4349fc.2f33dccd@aol.com>

Kent,
 
I know what you mean.. .everyone is connected with everyone else; however,  
there have been a few significant "literary connections."  For example,  
Katherine Ann Porter and Eudora Welty or Sylvia Beach and James Joyce.  
 
Vital connections that MADE careers, or helped first books get  published.  
Connections that without them, the writers' work may have  disappeared into 
obscurity.
 
If anyone  else knows of similar (significant) connections, I would like to 
hear from  them.
 
Many thanks,
 
Mill
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Feb  3 08:06:28 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:06:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Essay Online
Message-ID: <BE277DF4.80EF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

My essay "Poetry, Spilt Religion, and the Poetic Imagination" is now online
at Contemporary Poetry Review at the following link.


http://www.cprw.com/Lake/spiltreligion.htm

The essay covers poets from Donne to Language poetry, Dryden to Larkin, the
Biblical psalms to Dylan Thomas.


Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  3 16:16:26 2005
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:16:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
In-Reply-To: <e1.c4349fc.2f33dccd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20050203211626.54974.qmail@web52606.mail.yahoo.com>

Mill,

You've probably got this one,  but Eliot and Pound
come to mind.

Jeff

--- MillB at aol.com wrote:

> Kent,
>  
> I know what you mean.. .everyone is connected with
> everyone else; however,  
> there have been a few significant "literary
> connections."  For example,  
> Katherine Ann Porter and Eudora Welty or Sylvia
> Beach and James Joyce.  
>  
> Vital connections that MADE careers, or helped first
> books get  published.  
> Connections that without them, the writers' work may
> have  disappeared into 
> obscurity.
>  
> If anyone  else knows of similar (significant)
> connections, I would like to 
> hear from  them.
>  
> Many thanks,
>  
> Mill
> > _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Feb  3 18:18:25 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:18:25 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
References: <s20114ac.099@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <00c801c50a46$aa3c6380$2bd83052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Dear Kent/Genet/Ferlinghetti,

I know that the Corner will never bring you any great material fortune or
eternal glory, but I was never your lover, ex-, or distant relative. If
being a friend is such a catastrophe, as my artist friend used to say, I
think I will have to review my whole life, which anyhow isn't that
interesting after all. I have been lately writing requiems for the chopped
down tree, and publishing photos of icebergs. This might be my future
hopeless direction, thus without any possibility of having any favors
returned if any might have been expected, and given the assumption that your
presence on the Corner can be seen as a favor.

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:57 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections


> Mill,
>
> Speaking for myself, every single poem I have ever published is because
> the editor was a friend, distant relative, lover or ex-lover with
> secrets to protect, mentor, former professor, or acquaintance whose ass
> I had kissed in some way or another. Or it was because he or she owed me
> some kind of favor, in return for one I had done for him or her in full
> expectation that it would be returned in good time. Once I threatened an
> editor. I said, if you don't publish my poem, I'll say what I saw you
> doing in the bathroom with that guy at the MLA. I've done even worse
> things, which would include the use of opium.
>
> I suspect I am not alone. Look at all the people on this list who
> publish and win prizes and get selected as Poet of the Month, and so on.
> It's a dog eat dog world out there, and slaves are traded for rum from
> the colonies. The metropolis and the periphery are locked in invisible
> law.
>
> I could go on. But there are indeed many ways one may expertly use
> connections in this field. They are sometimes direct and sometimes
> indirect, these uses. But they are always there and at hand, and this is
> part of the secret fun of poetry. Its ancient, dirty underclothes, as it
> were. And what we don't say is that we love the smell of them.
>
> And poetry goes on, rhymed, or not.
>
> Kent
>
>
> >Greetings,
>
>
> Does anyone know of writers (living or dead) whose connection to other
>
> writers was what helped get their work into print?
>
> The "connection" could be student/teacher or lovers or a mentorship,
> editor,
> friend, enemy, translator, residency, happenstance,  accident.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Mill
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  3 19:04:37 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:04:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Our Bob,
	BurstnormPlainsongIowaUnfairBlahStuffItem #7
References: <ECOWS04MKufVma0osA9000015dd@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <025001c50a4d$1e1cf160$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Who cares?

Well, I do.  Marcus says that I've now admitted I call people names.  I have 
ALWAYS said that I call people names.

--Bob G.



>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Marcus Bales
>> Sent: 03 February 2005 18:12
>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Our
>> Bob,BurstnormPlainsongIowaUnfairBlahStuffItem #7
>>
>> > At 12:00 PM 2/3/2005 -0500, Our Friendly Bob wrote:
>> >     We do call each other names, though. Make that, I call
>> him names.
>>
>> On 3 Feb 2005 at 9:29, Barry Spacks wrote:
>> > Emotional Intelligence, ever-striving to break through?
>> > Friendly Barry the Aunti-Bob
>>
>> Ever since JforJames has forbidden me to argue with Bob on
>> the list, I've chosen not to read Bob's posts, so I don't
>> know if Bob was talking about me or not in the "call him
>> names" reference -- but whether it was me or not to whom he
>> referred, at leat Bob admits now that he calls other people
>> names. What an admission to have to make, though, eh?
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  3 19:07:11 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:07:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Our Bob,
	BurstnormPlainsongIowaUnfairBlahStuffItem #7
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050203092532.00c3bb30@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <026801c50a4d$7a14cbf0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


 We do call each other names, though.  Make that,
I call him names. 

Emotional Intelligence, ever-striving to break through?

Friendly Barry the Aunti-Bob


Of course, not, Barry.  An emotionally intelligent person never says anything but nice things about other people.  Emotionally intelligent people never experience social anger.  I am clearly without emotional intelligence.

--Bob G.

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Feb  3 20:14:02 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:14:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
References: <s20114ac.099@mail.highland.edu>
	<00c801c50a46$aa3c6380$2bd83052@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <012301c50a56$d0678e80$2bd83052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I forgot to add that this is all free advertisement, thank you for your
patience.

Anny

From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 12:18 AM


> Dear Kent/Genet/Ferlinghetti,
>
> I know that the Corner will never bring you any great material fortune or
> eternal glory, but I was never your lover, ex-, or distant relative. If
> being a friend is such a catastrophe, as my artist friend used to say, I
> think I will have to review my whole life, which anyhow isn't that
> interesting after all. I have been lately writing requiems for the chopped
> down tree, and publishing photos of icebergs. This might be my future
> hopeless direction, thus without any possibility of having any favors
> returned if any might have been expected, and given the assumption that
your
> presence on the Corner can be seen as a favor.
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
> admirers.
> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:57 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
>
>
> > Mill,
> >
> > Speaking for myself, every single poem I have ever published is because
> > the editor was a friend, distant relative, lover or ex-lover with
> > secrets to protect, mentor, former professor, or acquaintance whose ass
> > I had kissed in some way or another. Or it was because he or she owed me
> > some kind of favor, in return for one I had done for him or her in full
> > expectation that it would be returned in good time. Once I threatened an
> > editor. I said, if you don't publish my poem, I'll say what I saw you
> > doing in the bathroom with that guy at the MLA. I've done even worse
> > things, which would include the use of opium.
> >
> > I suspect I am not alone. Look at all the people on this list who
> > publish and win prizes and get selected as Poet of the Month, and so on.
> > It's a dog eat dog world out there, and slaves are traded for rum from
> > the colonies. The metropolis and the periphery are locked in invisible
> > law.
> >
> > I could go on. But there are indeed many ways one may expertly use
> > connections in this field. They are sometimes direct and sometimes
> > indirect, these uses. But they are always there and at hand, and this is
> > part of the secret fun of poetry. Its ancient, dirty underclothes, as it
> > were. And what we don't say is that we love the smell of them.
> >
> > And poetry goes on, rhymed, or not.
> >
> > Kent
> >
> >
> > >Greetings,
> >
> >
> > Does anyone know of writers (living or dead) whose connection to other
> >
> > writers was what helped get their work into print?
> >
> > The "connection" could be student/teacher or lovers or a mentorship,
> > editor,
> > friend, enemy, translator, residency, happenstance,  accident.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Mill




From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb  3 20:26:05 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 20:26:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Our Bob,
	BurstnormPlainsongIowaUnfairBlahStuffItem #7
In-Reply-To: <025001c50a4d$1e1cf160$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <420288DD.9497.A148B@localhost>

> > Who cares?
> 
On 3 Feb 2005 at 19:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Well, I do.  Marcus says that I've now admitted I call people names. 
> I have ALWAYS said that I call people names.

And proud of it, too -- but listen to him complain about it when 
other people criticize not him personally but what he says or how he 
says it! Whine whine whine whine whine whine. You'd think someone had 
insulted his mother.

Marcus


> >> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Marcus
> >> Bales Sent: 03 February 2005 18:12 To: NewPoetry: Contemporary
> >> Poetry News &amp;Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Our
> >> Bob,BurstnormPlainsongIowaUnfairBlahStuffItem #7
> >>
> >> > At 12:00 PM 2/3/2005 -0500, Our Friendly Bob wrote:
> >> >     We do call each other names, though. Make that, I call
> >> him names.
> >>
> >> On 3 Feb 2005 at 9:29, Barry Spacks wrote:
> >> > Emotional Intelligence, ever-striving to break through?
> >> > Friendly Barry the Aunti-Bob
> >>
> >> Ever since JforJames has forbidden me to argue with Bob on
> >> the list, I've chosen not to read Bob's posts, so I don't
> >> know if Bob was talking about me or not in the "call him
> >> names" reference -- but whether it was me or not to whom he
> >> referred, at leat Bob admits now that he calls other people
> >> names. What an admission to have to make, though, eh?
> >>
> >> Marcus
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb  4 08:48:09 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:48:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An E.Mail Test
References: <42032150.2785.67EA3C@localhost>
Message-ID: <00a501c50ac0$29bf03f0$36b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Note: Marcus and I are experiencing a problem with e.mails.  This e.mail is 
an attempt to find out why some of our e.mails go to both New-Poetry and to 
each other.

To Marcus:

Okay, I see that one e.mail must have started the chaiin.  Either you got an 
e.mail from me via New-Poetry that was set so that your one reply to it went 
both to New-Poetry and to me backchannel, or I got an e.mail from you that 
doubled my reply.

This is something that can be tested.  Respond as you normally would to this 
e.mail, which should go to New-Poetry only.  If I get one copy of your 
response from New-Poetry and one backchannel, it would indicate, it seems to 
me, that something at your end is wrong.

--Bob G. 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb  4 09:05:37 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 14:05:37 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] An E.Mail Test
References: <42032150.2785.67EA3C@localhost>
	<00a501c50ac0$29bf03f0$36b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <022b01c50ac2$9a96bb70$289f9951@Robin>

Bob:

> Note: Marcus and I are experiencing a problem with e.mails.  This e.mail
is
> an attempt to find out why some of our e.mails go to both New-Poetry and
to
> each other.

This sounds like the Reply/All = Reply/Sender problem.

Normally, list-replies default to the list only, but a few lists -- e.g.
FICINO and British-Poetry -- default to the sender.

It can be a right pain, but I didn't think it applied to New-Poetry.

Robin





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb  4 09:14:14 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:14:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An E.Mail Test
References: <42032150.2785.67EA3C@localhost><00a501c50ac0$29bf03f0$36b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<022b01c50ac2$9a96bb70$289f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <00c501c50ac3$cf0af730$36b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Bob:
>
>> Note: Marcus and I are experiencing a problem with e.mails.  This e.mail
> is
>> an attempt to find out why some of our e.mails go to both New-Poetry and
> to
>> each other.
>
> This sounds like the Reply/All = Reply/Sender problem.
>
> Normally, list-replies default to the list only, but a few lists -- e.g.
> FICINO and British-Poetry -- default to the sender.
>
> It can be a right pain, but I didn't think it applied to New-Poetry.
>
> Robin

No, it shouldn't be New-Poetry, for the promblem only occurs with Marcus's 
and my posts.  Other posts from New-Poetry only appear once.

--Bob 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Feb  4 09:20:05 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:20:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An E.Mail Test
In-Reply-To: <00a501c50ac0$29bf03f0$36b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42033E45.1543.153608@localhost>

Alas, taking the time to examine the "to" field before I hit "send", 
I see that both your and NewPoetry's addresses are in the "to" field 
when I use the simple straightforward "reply" button on my email 
client.

Marcus


On 4 Feb 2005 at 8:48, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Note: Marcus and I are experiencing a problem with e.mails.  This
> e.mail is an attempt to find out why some of our e.mails go to both
> New-Poetry and to each other.
> 
> To Marcus:
> 
> Okay, I see that one e.mail must have started the chaiin.  Either you
> got an e.mail from me via New-Poetry that was set so that your one
> reply to it went both to New-Poetry and to me backchannel, or I got an
> e.mail from you that doubled my reply.
> 
> This is something that can be tested.  Respond as you normally would
> to this e.mail, which should go to New-Poetry only.  If I get one copy
> of your response from New-Poetry and one backchannel, it would
> indicate, it seems to me, that something at your end is wrong.
> 
> --Bob G. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Feb  4 09:21:44 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:21:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An E.Mail Test
In-Reply-To: <022b01c50ac2$9a96bb70$289f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <42033EA8.8990.16B82C@localhost>

Here's an example of Robin's and NewPoetry's addresses appearing in 
the "to" field when I use the "reply to sender" button on my email 
client after Robin replied to Bob and to NewPoetry.

Marcus


On 4 Feb 2005 at 14:05, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> Bob:
> 
> > Note: Marcus and I are experiencing a problem with e.mails.  This
> > e.mail
> is
> > an attempt to find out why some of our e.mails go to both New-Poetry
> > and
> to
> > each other.
> 
> This sounds like the Reply/All = Reply/Sender problem.
> 
> Normally, list-replies default to the list only, but a few lists --
> e.g. FICINO and British-Poetry -- default to the sender.
> 
> It can be a right pain, but I didn't think it applied to New-Poetry.
> 
> Robin
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb  4 09:44:13 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:44:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An E.Mail Test
References: <42033E45.1543.153608@localhost>
Message-ID: <00e201c50ac7$ff203e40$36b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Alas, taking the time to examine the "to" field before I hit "send",
> I see that both your and NewPoetry's addresses are in the "to" field
> when I use the simple straightforward "reply" button on my email
> client.
>
> Marcus

Yes, exactly what I was doing.  Now, then, I got THIS e.mail with your name 
and New-Poetry's name in the "TO" box.  I got a duplicate of it also, with 
both names in the to box.

My e.mail should not have had my name in the "to" box--nor should yours to 
me.  I don't know what's going on.  I guess we'll just have to remember to 
check the "to" box each time.


>
> On 4 Feb 2005 at 8:48, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>> Note: Marcus and I are experiencing a problem with e.mails.  This
>> e.mail is an attempt to find out why some of our e.mails go to both
>> New-Poetry and to each other.
>>
>> To Marcus:
>>
>> Okay, I see that one e.mail must have started the chaiin.  Either you
>> got an e.mail from me via New-Poetry that was set so that your one
>> reply to it went both to New-Poetry and to me backchannel, or I got an
>> e.mail from you that doubled my reply.
>>
>> This is something that can be tested.  Respond as you normally would
>> to this e.mail, which should go to New-Poetry only.  If I get one copy
>> of your response from New-Poetry and one backchannel, it would
>> indicate, it seems to me, that something at your end is wrong.
>>
>> --Bob G.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Feb  4 11:51:03 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:51:03 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
Message-ID: <s20353b4.076@mail.highland.edu>

Anny said:

>I know that the Corner will never bring you any great material fortune
or
eternal glory, but I was never your lover, ex-, or distant relative. 

Anny, this is all true. I did forget you were the one (honorable)
exception.

Kent


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  4 13:53:54 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:53:54 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
Message-ID: <5552345.1107543234666.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

I had a darker response, having misread thusly: I know that the Coroner will never bring you any great material fortune or eternal glory, but I was never your lover, ex-, or distant relative. 

- Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
Sent: Feb 4, 2005 9:51 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections

Anny said:

>I know that the Corner will never bring you any great material fortune
or
eternal glory, but I was never your lover, ex-, or distant relative. 

Anny, this is all true. I did forget you were the one (honorable)
exception.

Kent
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Feb  4 15:26:11 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 21:26:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
References: <5552345.1107543234666.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000701c50af7$c4a143b0$81a33852@yourpk9x5fuc06>

And it could continue like this:

...,
but from these distant lands, where light is always light, without any need
to sleep or eat or drink, with levity and in happiness, from here where you
have never been, you should know Kent that your work is favored by the
stars, and not by human eternal glory it is judged but by those who keep on
writing messages to Henry Gould, i.e. your literary predecessors who are not
with you but with me up here, high up,

Cheers und Prosit,
Anny
similar entries, always in an advertising mood:
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=910

From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 7:53 PM


> I had a darker response, having misread thusly: I know that the Coroner
will never bring you any great material fortune or eternal glory, but I was
never your lover, ex-, or distant relative.
>
> - Jim
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
> Sent: Feb 4, 2005 9:51 AM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
>
> Anny said:
>
> >I know that the Corner will never bring you any great material fortune
> or
> eternal glory, but I was never your lover, ex-, or distant relative.
>
> Anny, this is all true. I did forget you were the one (honorable)
> exception.
>
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  4 18:15:41 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:15:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Aftershock"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEDMJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Aftershock

Of the huge dead. Of upscale retail centers in our city. Of closing loopholes
in the corporate tax code. Of course, we?d welcome these or any images

based on legislation passed in several states, or news that the Weather
Underground?s gift shop will remain open until 9 o?clock on warm summer

evenings. Far from charging sales taxes on the chemicals purchased by major
terrorists and agribusinesses, the government is thought to be preparing

a press release stating that it has no comment on that subject. Keeps our
economy and people moving, keeps one eye on the door, one foot on

the accelerator at all times?until offered a discount of 15% off the regular
admissions price for R-rated features. I particularly admired this old

hardware store with its nineteenth-century fixtures. He gently wipes it
with a tattered sleeve, saying, ?I will be true to the wife.?

Because too many students threw pennies in the pool, its water
was no longer blue, and the conferees had to spend the night sleeping

on the hard-wood floor of the basketball court, tossing fitfully, dreaming
of road and site improvements that would cost 50 million to 75 million

dollars (not counting kickbacks). My dear, it is too late for peace, too
late for philanthropic phalaropes to adjust their lobate toes to current

market conditions. Down the wilde road the travelers proceeded, happy
to be on the move again after their enforced leisure caused by

drifting snow and a deliberate underfunding of public transportation.


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/





From elemenope at icubed.com  Fri Feb  4 12:44:47 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 01:44:47 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections (Kent Johnson)
In-Reply-To: <200502041700.j14H09Am002025@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200502041700.j14H09Am002025@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300be29617f34e0@[204.215.200.56]>

And, this honorable exception of Anny Ballardini leads to accolades 
and distinctions, as I have predicted astrologically regarding her 
Leonine fate as poet and editor/publisher.

Indeed, she is one of the few who does not believe in the kind of 
politics that Kent so forthrightly observed compromises his sense of 
himself as Writer.  I am certain that there are certain drama kings 
who have tried to corrupt her with false promises and bizarre games. 
But, she's hip to such liars.

Anny Ballardini has the kind of soul we saw in Madame Rachou, perfect 
landlady of 9, Rue Git-le-Coeur, Paris.  Grandiloquent and 
pugnacious, loving and mysterious.  Jocular and dreamy.  Her own.

R i c h a r d   D i l l o n




>------------------------------
>
>Message: 19
>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:51:03 -0600
>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <s20353b4.076 at mail.highland.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>Anny said:
>
>>I know that the Corner will never bring you any great material fortune
>or
>eternal glory, but I was never your lover, ex-, or distant relative.
>
>Anny, this is all true. I did forget you were the one (honorable)
>exception.
>
>Kent
>


-- 


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Feb  5 07:02:52 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:02:52 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections (Kent Johnson)
References: <200502041700.j14H09Am002025@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100300be29617f34e0@[204.215.200.56]>
Message-ID: <003801c50b7a$9f19f000$6aa93852@yourpk9x5fuc06>


Thank you very much Richard. I chose to feature both Richard Dillon and Kent
Johnson on the Poets' Corner, which shows, as I said many times, that I am
not interested in politics when we deal with poetry. I cherish the enormous
difference in thought which I regard as a richness.

I live in a bilingual province: German/Italian on the northern border of
Italy. This same province was recently annexed (officially 1923, but then we
have to reach Mussolini and February 1935 with his invitation to the Italian
industries to open factories here - to witness a slow "Italianization" of
the area) to Italy, and is historically tied to Austria. Up to less than a
couple of decades ago we had bombs set all the where by this or that ethnic
group (German or Italian).
This seemed to me a negative & rigid interpretation of territorial
development. The great wealth of the area is its bilingualism with its
traditions, double culture, cuisine if you wish, and so on.

To state that I respect different political views. I despise them instead
when politics is used for personal means, which I do not think is the case
of Dillon or Johnson. Maybe this explanation was due, even if I find it
difficult to formulate it. Especially because I am not that well today
having slept little and back from school.

Besides being flattered, I don't think I deserve too many praises, I am
practically doing something that I enjoy. Even if it is very nice to receive
them.
My best wishes and a great week-end to all,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" <elemenope at icubed.com>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:44 PM


> And, this honorable exception of Anny Ballardini leads to accolades
> and distinctions, as I have predicted astrologically regarding her
> Leonine fate as poet and editor/publisher.
>
> Indeed, she is one of the few who does not believe in the kind of
> politics that Kent so forthrightly observed compromises his sense of
> himself as Writer.  I am certain that there are certain drama kings
> who have tried to corrupt her with false promises and bizarre games.
> But, she's hip to such liars.
>
> Anny Ballardini has the kind of soul we saw in Madame Rachou, perfect
> landlady of 9, Rue Git-le-Coeur, Paris.  Grandiloquent and
> pugnacious, loving and mysterious.  Jocular and dreamy.  Her own.
>
> R i c h a r d   D i l l o n
>




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  5 07:43:04 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 05:43:04 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Aftershock"
Message-ID: <31693578.1107607384315.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

Hal, you are a poet of our time.

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: Feb 4, 2005 4:15 PM
To: New-Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Aftershock"


Aftershock

Of the huge dead. Of upscale retail centers in our city. Of closing loopholes
in the corporate tax code. Of course, we?d welcome these or any images

based on legislation passed in several states, or news that the Weather
Underground?s gift shop will remain open until 9 o?clock on warm summer

evenings. Far from charging sales taxes on the chemicals purchased by major
terrorists and agribusinesses, the government is thought to be preparing

a press release stating that it has no comment on that subject. Keeps our
economy and people moving, keeps one eye on the door, one foot on

the accelerator at all times?until offered a discount of 15% off the regular
admissions price for R-rated features. I particularly admired this old

hardware store with its nineteenth-century fixtures. He gently wipes it
with a tattered sleeve, saying, ?I will be true to the wife.?

Because too many students threw pennies in the pool, its water
was no longer blue, and the conferees had to spend the night sleeping

on the hard-wood floor of the basketball court, tossing fitfully, dreaming
of road and site improvements that would cost 50 million to 75 million

dollars (not counting kickbacks). My dear, it is too late for peace, too
late for philanthropic phalaropes to adjust their lobate toes to current

market conditions. Down the wilde road the travelers proceeded, happy
to be on the move again after their enforced leisure caused by

drifting snow and a deliberate underfunding of public transportation.


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  5 09:12:56 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:12:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Alan Davies, "untitled series"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEEHJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


untitled series

The hills are black mollusks
against the sweating sun
and the river is iced slate--
however we speak of April
we mean that we're passing through.

There's just enough moon
to make of the hills
a very silent silhouette--
then peace ravages the brain
and cars start up in the carpark.

The world is a blissful contrivance
of thoughts and the thoughtful
the soft color of the air--
at night
you can't even see the river.

--Alan Davies

fr. *CrossConnect*, vol. III, issue II, 1996-7
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/xconnect/v3/i2/Word/ad1.shtml



Hal          

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
	




From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  5 10:12:36 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:12:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Aftershock"
In-Reply-To: <31693578.1107607384315.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEEMJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Watch your language, bub.

Hal

{    Hal, you are a poet of our time.
{    
{    - Jim
{    
{    -----Original Message-----
{    From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
{    Sent: Feb 4, 2005 4:15 PM
{    To: New-Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] "Aftershock"
{    
{    
{    Aftershock
{    
{    Of the huge dead. Of upscale retail centers in our city. Of closing loopholes
{    in the corporate tax code. Of course, we?d welcome these or any images
{    
{    based on legislation passed in several states, or news that the Weather
{    Underground?s gift shop will remain open until 9 o?clock on warm summer
{    
{    evenings. Far from charging sales taxes on the chemicals purchased by major
{    terrorists and agribusinesses, the government is thought to be preparing
{    
{    a press release stating that it has no comment on that subject. Keeps our
{    economy and people moving, keeps one eye on the door, one foot on
{    
{    the accelerator at all times?until offered a discount of 15% off the regular
{    admissions price for R-rated features. I particularly admired this old
{    
{    hardware store with its nineteenth-century fixtures. He gently wipes it
{    with a tattered sleeve, saying, ?I will be true to the wife.?
{    
{    Because too many students threw pennies in the pool, its water
{    was no longer blue, and the conferees had to spend the night sleeping
{    
{    on the hard-wood floor of the basketball court, tossing fitfully, dreaming
{    of road and site improvements that would cost 50 million to 75 million
{    
{    dollars (not counting kickbacks). My dear, it is too late for peace, too
{    late for philanthropic phalaropes to adjust their lobate toes to current
{    
{    market conditions. Down the wilde road the travelers proceeded, happy
{    to be on the move again after their enforced leisure caused by
{    
{    drifting snow and a deliberate underfunding of public transportation.
{    
{    
{    Hal
{    
{    Halvard Johnson
{    ===============
{    email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
{    
{    
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Feb  5 11:14:37 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 10:14:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Alan Davies
Message-ID: <s2049cb9.066@mail.highland.edu>

That's a beautiful poem by Davies. 

He is the odd duck of the old Language group. From the beginning he
argued that the language/mind relation was more complicated than the
main theoretical voices had it. He was arguing with them right there in
L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E magazine. He has been a serious student of Zen Buddhism
for many years and this, no doubt, feeds the strange luminosities that
characterize his work. Look at those last lines. Evanescently gorgeous.


Kent


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  5 11:28:56 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:28:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Aftershock"
Message-ID: <3326234.1107620936365.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

Dub me the misread king.  I read: Watch your luggage, bub.  Which I do - carefully - because someone might slip a fucking book of poetry into it.

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: Feb 5, 2005 8:12 AM
To: James Cervantes <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>, 
	"NewPoetry:Contemporary Poetry News &" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] "Aftershock"


Watch your language, bub.

Hal

{    Hal, you are a poet of our time.
{    
{    - Jim
{    
{    -----Original Message-----
{    From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
{    Sent: Feb 4, 2005 4:15 PM
{    To: New-Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] "Aftershock"
{    
{    
{    Aftershock
{    
{    Of the huge dead. Of upscale retail centers in our city. Of closing loopholes
{    in the corporate tax code. Of course, we?d welcome these or any images
{    
{    based on legislation passed in several states, or news that the Weather
{    Underground?s gift shop will remain open until 9 o?clock on warm summer
{    
{    evenings. Far from charging sales taxes on the chemicals purchased by major
{    terrorists and agribusinesses, the government is thought to be preparing
{    
{    a press release stating that it has no comment on that subject. Keeps our
{    economy and people moving, keeps one eye on the door, one foot on
{    
{    the accelerator at all times?until offered a discount of 15% off the regular
{    admissions price for R-rated features. I particularly admired this old
{    
{    hardware store with its nineteenth-century fixtures. He gently wipes it
{    with a tattered sleeve, saying, ?I will be true to the wife.?
{    
{    Because too many students threw pennies in the pool, its water
{    was no longer blue, and the conferees had to spend the night sleeping
{    
{    on the hard-wood floor of the basketball court, tossing fitfully, dreaming
{    of road and site improvements that would cost 50 million to 75 million
{    
{    dollars (not counting kickbacks). My dear, it is too late for peace, too
{    late for philanthropic phalaropes to adjust their lobate toes to current
{    
{    market conditions. Down the wilde road the travelers proceeded, happy
{    to be on the move again after their enforced leisure caused by
{    
{    drifting snow and a deliberate underfunding of public transportation.
{    
{    
{    Hal
{    
{    Halvard Johnson
{    ===============
{    email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
{    
{    
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd at vbe.com  Sat Feb  5 12:59:50 2005
From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 11:59:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections 
In-Reply-To: <a05100300be29617f34e0@[204.215.200.56]>
Message-ID: <BE2A65B6.4096%grahamd@vbe.com>

on 2/4/05 11:44 AM, ELEMENOPE Productions at elemenope at icubed.com wrote:

>> Anny said:
>> 
>>> I know that the Corner will never bring you any great material fortune
>> or
>> eternal glory, but I was never your lover, ex-, or distant relative.
>> 
>> Anny, this is all true. I did forget you were the one (honorable)
>> exception.
>> 
>> Kent
>> 

This is a mighty slippery slope.  This friend/unfriend taxonomy is way too
simple; what about us with no rights in the matter, we who are neither lover
nor friend?  What if we just sorta *like* Kent Johnson?  Or if we maybe
recognize the name, a little, but aren't quite sure?  Or if we posted one of
his poems once in an email to a friend, or even our lover?  Or what if, like
me, we once taught Kent Johnson in Driver's Ed class so many years ago?

What if we *are* Kent Johnson under a different name?  (What if we are
actually all just internet dogs?)

You see the problem.  It's not called the worldwide web for nothing.  I
myself owe my entire career to Kent Johnson, I'm not ashamed to say (though
I am ashamed of the career, I guess, which come to think of it means that
Kent Johnson should get busy pronto and start promoting me the way I've been
quietly promoting *him* all these decades.  It's all happening behind the
scenes, and alas, we have no proper *names* for it all!

Thank you all for your kind attention to this matter.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at vbe.com
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

Mill,

Speaking for myself, every single poem I have ever published is because
the editor was a friend, distant relative, lover or ex-lover with
secrets to protect, mentor, former professor, or acquaintance whose ass
I had kissed in some way or another. Or it was because he or she owed me
some kind of favor, in return for one I had done for him or her in full
expectation that it would be returned in good time. Once I threatened an
editor. I said, if you don't publish my poem, I'll say what I saw you
doing in the bathroom with that guy at the MLA. I've done even worse
things, which would include the use of opium.

I suspect I am not alone. Look at all the people on this list who
publish and win prizes and get selected as Poet of the Month, and so on.
It's a dog eat dog world out there, and slaves are traded for rum from
the colonies. The metropolis and the periphery are locked in invisible
law.

I could go on. But there are indeed many ways one may expertly use
connections in this field. They are sometimes direct and sometimes
indirect, these uses. But they are always there and at hand, and this is
part of the secret fun of poetry. Its ancient, dirty underclothes, as it
were. And what we don't say is that we love the smell of them.

And poetry goes on, rhymed, or not.

Kent


>Greetings,
 
 
Does anyone know of writers (living or dead) whose connection to other

writers was what helped get their work into print?
 
The "connection" could be student/teacher or lovers or a mentorship,
editor, 
friend, enemy, translator, residency, happenstance,  accident.
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Mill




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Feb  5 14:46:26 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 13:46:26 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Connections
Message-ID: <s204ce44.007@mail.highland.edu>

I think David Graham's questions are all excellent. And his point at the
end, made even more suggestive by the Projective open parenthesis, is
thought provoking, to say the least.

(Incidentally... Kent Johnson=David Graham. Can anyone think of two
legal nominals less poetic or memorable, more redolent of commerce and
slavish consumerism? Johnson Baby Shampoo, Graham Crackers; Johnson
Motors, Graham Hemorrhoidal Cream... Alas!) 

One thing, though: I suspect David has been quietly promoting my Name
behind the scenes strictly out of a sense of guilt. For way back in
1959, when I took Driver's Ed with him, he gave me an 'F', and this for
reasons (I will avoid going into the rather personal particulars) that
had nothing to do with my driving skills. I, on the other hand, being
the abused party, have no cause to feel guilty, and it is for this
reason I have not even given a passing thought, these past 45 years, to
promoting his. 


From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 15:06:25 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:06:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kelly, Powell, Richardson, Snyder, or Rich
Message-ID: <9e.1f85efbe.2f368141@aol.com>

National Book Critics Circle chooses awards nominees;
Winners to be announced on March 18
For immediate release 
Contact: Peter Terzian, 212-251-6831, peter.terzian at newsday.com

January 22, 2005-The nominees for the National Book Critics Circle awards for 
the publishing year 2004 in the categories of fiction, nonfiction, 
biography/autobiography, criticism, and poetry have been selected. The winners will be 
announced this March at the organization's 31st annual awards ceremony. 

At the ceremony, the National Book Critics Circle will also give the Ivan 
Sandrof Lifetime Achievement Award to Louis D. Rubin, Jr., the founder of 
Algonquin Press and the author and editor of over 50 books.

In addition, the National Book Critics Circle will award its Nona Balakian 
Citation for Excellence in Reviewing to David Orr, a contributor to the New York 
Times Book Review and Poetry magazine. The award, named after a longtime 
supporter of the organization, is given annually to a member who has demonstrated 
high critical standards in his or her work. The finalists included Stacey 
D'Erasmo, Claire Dederer, Andrew O'Hagan, Thomas Powers and Stacy Schiff.

The awards ceremony will take place on Friday, March 18, at the auditorium of 
the New School, 66 West 12 Street, at 6:00 p.m. The event is free and open to 
the public. A gala follows directly at the New School and costs $40. Nominees 
will read from their works at an event held Thursday, March 17, also at the 
New School's auditorium, at 6:00 p.m. This is also free and open to the public.

The National Book Critics Circle is a not-for-profit organization of book 
editors and critics with some 600 members nationwide. The organization was 
founded in 1974 to encourage and raise the quality of book criticism in all media 
and to create a way for critics to communicate with one another about their 
professional concerns. The NBCC has a Website at bookcritics.org.

Last year's National Book Critics Circle winners were Edward P. Jones's The 
Known World (fiction); Paul Hendrickson's Ghosts of Mississippi (nonfiction); 
Khrushchev: The Man and His Era, by William Taubman (biography/autobiography); 
Columbarium, by Susan Stewart (poetry); and River of Shadows: Eadweard 
Muybridge and the Technological Wild West, by Rebecca Solnit (criticism).

A complete list of this year's nominees follows.
.

Fiction

Edwidge Danticat, The Dew Breaker (Knopf)

Alan Hollinghurst, The Line of Beauty (Bloomsbury)

David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas (Random House)

Marilynne Robinson, Gilead (Farrar, Straus and Giroux)

Philip Roth, The Plot Against America (Houghton Mifflin)

 

General Nonfiction

Kevin Boyle, Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights and Murder in the 
Jazz Age (Holt)

Edward Conlon, Blue Blood (Riverhead)

Diarmaid MacCulloch, The Reformation: A History (Viking)

David Shipler, The Working Poor: Invisible in America (Knopf)

Timothy B. Tyson, Blood Done Sign My Name: A True Story (Crown)

 

Biography/Autobiography
 

Ron Chernow, Alexander Hamilton (Penguin Press)

Bob Dylan, Chronicles Vol. 1 (Simon & Schuster)

Stephen Greenblatt, Will in the World: How Shakespeare Became Shakespeare 
(Norton)

John Guy, Queen of Scots: The True Life of Mary Stuart (Houghton Mifflin)

Mark Stevens and Annalyn Swan, De Kooning: An American Master (Knopf)

 

Poetry

Brigit Pegeen Kelly, The Orchard (BOA Editions)

D.A. Powell, Cocktails (Graywolf)

Adrienne Rich, The School Among the Ruins (Norton)

James Richardson, Interglacial (Ausable Press)

Gary Snyder, Danger on Peaks (Shoemaker & Hoard)

 

Criticism

Richard Howard, Paper Trail: Selected Prose 1965-2003 (Farrar, Straus and 
Giroux)

Patrick Neate, Where You're At: Notes From the Frontline of a Hip-Hop Planet 
(Riverhead)

Graham Robb, Strangers: Homosexual Love in the 19th Century (Norton)

Craig Seligman, Sontag & Kael: Opposites Attract Me (Counterpoint)

James Wood, The Irresponsible Self: On Laughter and the Novel (Farrar, Straus 
and Giroux)

 


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From elemenope at icubed.com  Sat Feb  5 12:14:28 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 01:14:28 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] 9. Alan Davies (Kent Johnson)
In-Reply-To: <200502051700.j15H03Am011821@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200502051700.j15H03Am011821@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100304be2aadec5b08@[204.215.201.134]>

Of Alan's lines I've always recounted:

>Sun stalls
>	  take nod to wafer


Written way back in Boulder in another aeon.

-----

R i c h a r d   D i l l o n







>
>untitled series
>
>The hills are black mollusks
>against the sweating sun
>and the river is iced slate--
>however we speak of April
>we mean that we're passing through.
>
>There's just enough moon
>to make of the hills
>a very silent silhouette--
>then peace ravages the brain
>and cars start up in the carpark.
>
>The world is a blissful contrivance
>of thoughts and the thoughtful
>the soft color of the air--
>at night
>you can't even see the river.
>
>--Alan Davies
>
>fr. *CrossConnect*, vol. III, issue II, 1996-7
>http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/xconnect/v3/i2/Word/ad1.shtml
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 10:14:37 -0600
>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Alan Davies
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Message-ID: <s2049cb9.066 at mail.highland.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>That's a beautiful poem by Davies.
>
>He is the odd duck of the old Language group. From the beginning he
>argued that the language/mind relation was more complicated than the
>main theoretical voices had it. He was arguing with them right there in
>L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E magazine. He has been a serious student of Zen Buddhism
>for many years and this, no doubt, feeds the strange luminosities that
>characterize his work. Look at those last lines. Evanescently gorgeous.
>
>Kent

-- 


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb  6 14:38:26 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:38:26 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: 2 by Geoffrey Hill
Message-ID: <1a7.30dbd26b.2f37cc32@aol.com>

An Order of Service

He was the surveyor of his own ice-world,
Meticulous at the chosen extreme,
Though what he surveyed may have been nothing.

Let the man sacrifice himself, concede
His mortality and have done with it;
There is no end to that sublime appeal.

In such a light dismiss the unappealing
Blank of his gaze, hopelessly vigilant,
Dazzled by renunciation's glare.



The Imaginative Life

Evasive souls, of whom the wise lose track,
Die in each night, who, with their day-tongues, sift
The waking-taste of manna or of blood:

The raw magi, part-barbarians,
Entranced by demons and desert frost,
By the irregular visions of a god,

Suffragans of the true seraphs. Lust
Writhes, is dumb savage and in their way
As a virulence natural to the earth..

Renewed glories batten on the poor bones;
Gargantuan mercies whetted by a scent
Of mortal sweat: as though the sleeping flesh

Adored by Furies, stirred, yawned, were driven
In mid-terror to purging and delight,
As though the dead had Finis on their brows. 



Geoffrey Hill, New & Collected Poems: 1952-1992, 
Mariner Books, 1994 (Both  poems originally appeared 
in King Log, 1959)
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  6 17:18:10 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:18:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A:  Pablo Neruda hits one out of the park
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEGJJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Rita Guibert: What are your working hours?

Pablo Neruda: I don't have a schedule, but by preference I write
in the morning. Which is to say that if you weren't here making me
waste my time (and wasting your own), I would be writing.

tr. Ronald Christ
fr. *Paris Review*, Winter 1971



From lhat at wiz.cath.vt.edu  Sun Feb  6 23:58:03 2005
From: lhat at wiz.cath.vt.edu (Len Hatfield)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 23:58:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Your Email Listserver will be OFF-LINE 2/10-2/13
Message-ID: <20050207045803.GA27439@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

Folks:
[apologies for cross postings)

This message affects the following lists and their associated sub-lists:

  api, asbwp, bizcom, cafe-blue, chaucerweb, csana-l, ebs, hel-l, 
  hollinsmuse, iafa-l, medhum, medren, new-poetry, pro.writing, 
  sfra-l, thel, and watermarks

Important information: Starting Thursday, February 10th through
some time on Saturday, Feb 12th, several computer servers hosted
by the Center for Applied Technologies in the Humanities (CATH)
at Virginia Tech will be taken OFF LINE in order to accommodate 
a move from one location at Virginia Tech to another.  The affected
machines are WIZ.CATH.VT.EDU, IDLE.CATH.VT.EDU, and ADA.CATH.VT.EDU.

In addition to the above email lists, these machines host many
organizational websites, MOOs, the Moveable Type blog server,
the Grammar Gym quiz processors and score recording system, and
other less used utilities.

If all goes well, the servers will be back on line quickly after
their relocation and reconfiguration.  But during the Off Line
period, please refrain from sending messages to these
email lists and from using the other services.

Thanks in advance for your patience during this maintenance
period; please get in touch with me directly after Sunday, Feb.
13th, if you encounter any difficulties with the CATH servers,
listserver, MOOs, Grammar Gym, etc.

Best,

-- 
      ...Len

Len Hatfield
English/CATH Tech Mgr
Virginia Tech


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb  7 04:10:59 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:10:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Howard
Message-ID: <000c01c50cf4$f0edb170$b1aa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

*
David Howard, excellent poet and friend, sent me a substantial contribution of his work to be added to his page on the Poets' Corner:

 

KIND OF A LASSO TO THE WORLD THAT ISN'T TRUE, YET

 

 

the spider inside your eiderdown pater familias

it nimbled in while you were thinking of a girl how your rubbish filled her glory box

with long legs polished like summer's promises through autumn

when she stretches neck-high in harvest light

over your bed she stretches like a model from Millet or a line by Minna Sora

over the air you nearly inhabit she is lost in something other than thought

 

a halter-neck sunset for the heavens declare the glory of God (Psalm XIX)

slipping away from the wasp-waisted day along with the spring tide

she said (say it) yes sucking on the rind of the Lord's silence

beneath the relief of the Virgin a submission insidious as the dust that drifts into your nostrils

blood you lean over like a pensioner feeling for your heart

lines with the simplicity of the ellipse dynamized by its eccentric motion

 

 

? David Howard


on my pc this poem is centered, I hope it is on yours as well, thank you for any b/c:
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=963

together with:
A Brief History of Colonialism
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=964

Mass
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=965

The Folly of Honest Men
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=966

and the German translation of the latter by Fabian W. Williges
Die Torheit Ehrlicher Menschen
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=967

I survived the storm of the flu that sort of plunged me into a coma over the week-end, only a terrible cough now, should survive this one as well, :-)

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  7 17:13:03 2005
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:13:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Songs by Others:  Sting "All This Time"
Message-ID: <20050207221303.14376.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>

Revisiting an old collection of CDs, I came across
this gem, from Sting's *Soul Cages.*  It's a beautiful
song--do the lyrics hold up?

Comments?

"All This Time"
Sting

I looked out across
The river today
I saw a city in the fog and an old church tower
Where the seagulls play
I saw the sad shire horses walking home
In the sodium light
I saw two priests on the ferry
October geese on a cold winter's night

And all this time, the river flowed
Endlessly to the sea

Two priests came round our house tonight
One young, one old, to offer prayers for the dying
To serve the final rite
One to learn, one to teach
Which was the cold wind blows
Fussing and flapping in priestly black
Like a murder of crows

And all this time, the river flowed
Endlessly to the sea
If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
And I'd bury the old man,
I'd bury him at sea

Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth
Better to be poor than a fat man in the eye of a
needle
And as these words were spoken I swore I hear
The old man laughing:
"What good is a used up world and how could it be
Worth having?"

And all this time the river flowed
Endlessly like a silent tear
And all this time the river flowed
Father, if Jesus exists,
Then how come he never lived here

The teachers told us, the Romans built this place
They built a wall and a temple, an edge of the empire
Garrison town,
They lived and they died, they prayed to their gods
But the stone gods did not make a sound
And their empire crumbled, 'til all that was left
Were the stones the workmen found

And all this time the river flowed
In the falling light of a northern sun
If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
Men go crazy in congregations
But they only get better
One by one
One by one...


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From MillB at aol.com  Mon Feb  7 17:23:46 2005
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:23:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 911 Essay from Three Penny Review
Message-ID: <84.3eb3e5e8.2f394472@aol.com>

 
This essay is beautiful and well worth reading: "You Can't Even Remember  
What I'm Trying to Forget," an account of the 911 tragedy by a flight attendant,  
Rebecca Brock.  
 
_http://www.threepennyreview.com/samples/brock_w05.html_ 
(http://www.threepennyreview.com/samples/brock_w05.html) 
 

Mill


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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Mon Feb  7 22:42:53 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 22:42:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Songs by Others:  Sting "All This Time"
In-Reply-To: <20050207221303.14376.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050207221303.14376.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0502072242460.25711@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

works for me.




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Feb  7 22:52:46 2005
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:52:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Songs by Others:  Sting "All This Time"
In-Reply-To: <20050207221303.14376.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050207221303.14376.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050207225147.W33280@kpaul.spinweb.net>

To be honest, knowing who had written it, i kept 'hearing' his voice in my 
head. Would've been interesting to give it to us w/out saying who it was. 
;)

Thanks for passing it on, tho.

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> Revisiting an old collection of CDs, I came across
> this gem, from Sting's *Soul Cages.*  It's a beautiful
> song--do the lyrics hold up?
>
> Comments?
>
> "All This Time"
> Sting
>
> I looked out across
> The river today
> I saw a city in the fog and an old church tower
> Where the seagulls play
> I saw the sad shire horses walking home
> In the sodium light
> I saw two priests on the ferry
> October geese on a cold winter's night
>
> And all this time, the river flowed
> Endlessly to the sea
>
> Two priests came round our house tonight
> One young, one old, to offer prayers for the dying
> To serve the final rite
> One to learn, one to teach
> Which was the cold wind blows
> Fussing and flapping in priestly black
> Like a murder of crows
>
> And all this time, the river flowed
> Endlessly to the sea
> If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
> And I'd bury the old man,
> I'd bury him at sea
>
> Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth
> Better to be poor than a fat man in the eye of a
> needle
> And as these words were spoken I swore I hear
> The old man laughing:
> "What good is a used up world and how could it be
> Worth having?"
>
> And all this time the river flowed
> Endlessly like a silent tear
> And all this time the river flowed
> Father, if Jesus exists,
> Then how come he never lived here
>
> The teachers told us, the Romans built this place
> They built a wall and a temple, an edge of the empire
> Garrison town,
> They lived and they died, they prayed to their gods
> But the stone gods did not make a sound
> And their empire crumbled, 'til all that was left
> Were the stones the workmen found
>
> And all this time the river flowed
> In the falling light of a northern sun
> If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
> Men go crazy in congregations
> But they only get better
> One by one
> One by one...
>
>
> =====
> Jeff Newberry
>
> "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> especially when your only friend
> talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> and you do just the same as him."
> --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Tue Feb  8 01:26:51 2005
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:26:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Songs by Others:  Sting "All This Time"
Message-ID: <54243e545cbd.545cbd54243e@nyu.edu>

It's a lovely song. I don't think it holds on its own.

----- Original Message -----
From: kpaul mallasch <kpaul at mallasch.com>
Date: Monday, February 7, 2005 10:52 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Songs by Others:  Sting "All This Time"

> To be honest, knowing who had written it, i kept 'hearing' his 
> voice in my 
> head. Would've been interesting to give it to us w/out saying who 
> it was. 
> ;)
> 
> Thanks for passing it on, tho.
> 
> -kpaul
> mallasch.com/mug/
> 
> On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 
> > Revisiting an old collection of CDs, I came across
> > this gem, from Sting's *Soul Cages.*  It's a beautiful
> > song--do the lyrics hold up?
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > "All This Time"
> > Sting
> >
> > I looked out across
> > The river today
> > I saw a city in the fog and an old church tower
> > Where the seagulls play
> > I saw the sad shire horses walking home
> > In the sodium light
> > I saw two priests on the ferry
> > October geese on a cold winter's night
> >
> > And all this time, the river flowed
> > Endlessly to the sea
> >
> > Two priests came round our house tonight
> > One young, one old, to offer prayers for the dying
> > To serve the final rite
> > One to learn, one to teach
> > Which was the cold wind blows
> > Fussing and flapping in priestly black
> > Like a murder of crows
> >
> > And all this time, the river flowed
> > Endlessly to the sea
> > If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
> > And I'd bury the old man,
> > I'd bury him at sea
> >
> > Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth
> > Better to be poor than a fat man in the eye of a
> > needle
> > And as these words were spoken I swore I hear
> > The old man laughing:
> > "What good is a used up world and how could it be
> > Worth having?"
> >
> > And all this time the river flowed
> > Endlessly like a silent tear
> > And all this time the river flowed
> > Father, if Jesus exists,
> > Then how come he never lived here
> >
> > The teachers told us, the Romans built this place
> > They built a wall and a temple, an edge of the empire
> > Garrison town,
> > They lived and they died, they prayed to their gods
> > But the stone gods did not make a sound
> > And their empire crumbled, 'til all that was left
> > Were the stones the workmen found
> >
> > And all this time the river flowed
> > In the falling light of a northern sun
> > If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
> > Men go crazy in congregations
> > But they only get better
> > One by one
> > One by one...
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Jeff Newberry
> >
> > "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> > especially when your only friend
> > talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> > and you do just the same as him."
> > --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Feb  8 03:08:56 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:08:56 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 911 Essay from Three Penny Review
References: <84.3eb3e5e8.2f394472@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003501c50db5$70214f40$3daf3852@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Thank you for sending it over. 

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MillB at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:23 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 911 Essay from Three Penny Review


  This essay is beautiful and well worth reading: "You Can't Even Remember What I'm Trying to Forget," an account of the 911 tragedy by a flight attendant, Rebecca Brock.  

  http://www.threepennyreview.com/samples/brock_w05.html

  Mill


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  8 09:15:47 2005
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 06:15:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyrics by Others:  Sting "Island of Souls"
Message-ID: <20050208141548.60940.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com>

kpaul,

I think you're right.  Whenever I read "All This
Time," I hear his voice.  I wonder about this one,
though.  I can't place the tune right now.

I think that these lyrics are better than the ones I
posted yesterday.

Jeff


"Island of Souls"

Billy was born within sight of the shipyard,
First son of a riveter's son.
And Billy was raised as the ship grew a shadow
Her great hull would blot out the light of the sun

And six days a week he would watch his poor father,
A working man live like a slave.
He'd drink every night and he'd dream of a future
Of money he never would save.
And Billy would cry when he thought of the future

Soon came a day when the bottle was broken;
They launched the great ship out to sea.
He felt he'd been left on a desolate shore
To a future he desperately wanted to flee.
What else was there for a shipbuilder's son,
A new ship to be built, new work to be done?

One day he dreamed of the ship in the world.
It would carry his father and he
To a place they would never be found,
To a place far away from this town.

Trapped in the cage of the skeleton ship,
All the workmen suspended like flies
Caught in the flare of acetylene light.
A working man works till the industry dies,
And Billy would cry when he thought of the future.

Then what they call an industrial accident
Crushed those it couldn't forgive.
They brought Billy's father back home in an ambulance
A brass watch, a cheque, maybe three weeks to live,
And what else was there for a riveter's son
A new ship to be built, new work to be done?

That night, he dreamed of the ship in the world
It would carry his father and he
To a place they could never be found
To a place far away from this town,
A Newcastle ship without coals
They would sail to the island of souls.


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


	
		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. 
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 09:20:34 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:20:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott Interview on Bookslut 
Message-ID: <7f.574fb1b2.2f3a24b2@aol.com>

http://www.bookslut.com/features/2005_02_004302.php
Interview with Bill Knott
 
Q: How has institutionalized ?creative writing? changed American literature?
 
A: Widened its base from the Ivy League bastions or bastards (to quote W.C. 
Williams, ?There?re a lot of bastards out there!?) who still control it 
anyway. There?s no escape from their hegemony. But what is ?American Literature?? 
Define it as: Works written in English by citizens of the United States. But 
what happens to AmerLit when, as demographic projections forecast, most USAs 
speak and write in Spanish? What happens when the Armada sails up the Thames and 
burns down the Globe and all its Folios? Lope de Shakespeare Vega.
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb  8 13:08:24 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:08:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] outer edges at Poetics
Message-ID: <s208abc4.095@mail.highland.edu>

As this is merely a call for submissions, I assume it is fine to repost
here. I thought mIEKAL AND's question on the "guidelines" priceless!



>Is rural Wisconsin considered an outer edge of Los Angeles?

mIEKAL


On Feb 8, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Catherine Daly wrote:

> Red Hen Press is currently accepting submissions for an anthology to
be
> published by Red Hen Press and edited by Carolyn See and Kate Gale.
The
> theme of the anthology will be "Writing From the Edges" and
submissions
> should reflect life on the outer edges of Los Angeles. By writing
about
> life on the edges of the city, we hope to come closer to a clearer
> sense
> of the city itself.
>
>
>
> Please direct all submissions to annie at redhen.org. Thank you.
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Feb  8 13:19:48 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:19:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] outer edges at Poetics
References: <s208abc4.095@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <017f01c50e0a$c64b4290$ec8f3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>


Ah yes, Kent, I also laughed for a couple of sec - he is something! (they
say in Italy),
and answered back on the Buffalo...


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 7:08 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] outer edges at Poetics


> As this is merely a call for submissions, I assume it is fine to repost
> here. I thought mIEKAL AND's question on the "guidelines" priceless!
>
>
>
> >Is rural Wisconsin considered an outer edge of Los Angeles?
>
> mIEKAL
>
>
> On Feb 8, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Catherine Daly wrote:
>
> > Red Hen Press is currently accepting submissions for an anthology to
> be
> > published by Red Hen Press and edited by Carolyn See and Kate Gale.
> The
> > theme of the anthology will be "Writing From the Edges" and
> submissions
> > should reflect life on the outer edges of Los Angeles. By writing
> about
> > life on the edges of the city, we hope to come closer to a clearer
> > sense
> > of the city itself.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please direct all submissions to annie at redhen.org. Thank you.
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  8 13:29:28 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:29:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] outer edges at Poetics
In-Reply-To: <s208abc4.095@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEJPJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Well, mIEKAL really ought to know that by now the outer edge
of Los Angeles has exited the world as we know it and is rapidly
gathering speed.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
 
{    As this is merely a call for submissions, I assume it is fine to repost
{    here. I thought mIEKAL AND's question on the "guidelines" priceless!
{    
{    
{    
{    >Is rural Wisconsin considered an outer edge of Los Angeles?
{    
{    mIEKAL
{    
{    
{    On Feb 8, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Catherine Daly wrote:
{    
{    > Red Hen Press is currently accepting submissions for an anthology to
{    be
{    > published by Red Hen Press and edited by Carolyn See and Kate Gale.
{    The
{    > theme of the anthology will be "Writing From the Edges" and
{    submissions
{    > should reflect life on the outer edges of Los Angeles. By writing
{    about
{    > life on the edges of the city, we hope to come closer to a clearer
{    > sense
{    > of the city itself.
{    >
{    >
{    >
{    > Please direct all submissions to annie at redhen.org. Thank you.
{    >
{    
{    
{    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  8 14:27:58 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 12:27:58 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] outer edges at Poetics
Message-ID: <17743432.1107890878985.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

Couldn't resist:

Blue Hen Press is currently accepting submissions for an anothology to be published by itself and edited by its own editors.  The theme of the anthology was/is/and-always-will-be "Writing From the Ledges" and submissions should focus on real or imaginary suicide notes from those about to take the leap.  By writing about life on the ledges, we hope to come to a better appreciation of windows (not the program) as points of entry, as opposed to points of egress.

Please direct all submissions to catcher at bluehen.org
With mild regret, we are accepting submissions from poets and writers from blue states only.

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
Sent: Feb 8, 2005 11:08 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] outer edges at Poetics

As this is merely a call for submissions, I assume it is fine to repost
here. I thought mIEKAL AND's question on the "guidelines" priceless!



>Is rural Wisconsin considered an outer edge of Los Angeles?

mIEKAL


On Feb 8, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Catherine Daly wrote:

> Red Hen Press is currently accepting submissions for an anthology to
be
> published by Red Hen Press and edited by Carolyn See and Kate Gale.
The
> theme of the anthology will be "Writing From the Edges" and
submissions
> should reflect life on the outer edges of Los Angeles. By writing
about
> life on the edges of the city, we hope to come closer to a clearer
> sense
> of the city itself.
>
>
>
> Please direct all submissions to annie at redhen.org. Thank you.
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  8 18:20:26 2005
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:20:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mike Snider
Message-ID: <20050208232026.7085.qmail@web52604.mail.yahoo.com>

Mike,

I lost the message you backchannled to me.

Can you contact me again?

Thanks so much!

Jeff 

=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From debra at debradicembre.com  Tue Feb  8 19:55:47 2005
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:55:47 +1100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 911 Essay from Three Penny Review
References: <84.3eb3e5e8.2f394472@aol.com>
	<003501c50db5$70214f40$3daf3852@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <002101c50e42$1980d0b0$0301010a@galaxy>

Yes, Thankyou. I too enjoyed this very much.

Debra Dicembre
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 7:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 911 Essay from Three Penny Review


  Thank you for sending it over. 

  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
  Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: MillB at aol.com 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:23 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 911 Essay from Three Penny Review


    This essay is beautiful and well worth reading: "You Can't Even Remember What I'm Trying to Forget," an account of the 911 tragedy by a flight attendant, Rebecca Brock.  

    http://www.threepennyreview.com/samples/brock_w05.html

    Mill


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 20:16:58 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:16:58 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] APJ v1i2 is out!
Message-ID: <141.3f16211d.2f3abe8a@aol.com>

From: J. P. Dancing Bear [mailto:dbear at value.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:05 PM
To: J. P. Dancing Bear
Subject: APJ v1i2 is out!


I am proud to announce the release of the American Poetry Journal v1 i2 
featuring: poems by Allison Burnett, Barbara Crooker, Carol Frith, Jeannine Hall 
Gailey, Jennifer Michael Hecht, Paul Guest, Carolyn Miller, Steve Mueske, Susan 
Meyers, Rebecca Patrascu, Liz Robbins, Emily Rosko, C. J. Sage, B.L.P. 
Simmons,


And the first American Poet Prize winner: Beth Bachmann,

 and 2 book reviews by Ilya Kaminsky,

 with the cover art by Jack Morefield.

 Check out the APJ website featuring news, information about APJ as well as 
feature about a new form Sevenlings by its creator, Roddy Lumsden.
www.americanpoetryjournal.com


 Also I am announcing that we are offering the second Annual American Poet 
Prize.  The winner will receive $300 plus publication in The American Poetry 
Journal. All entries will be considered  for publication. Submit up to three 
original and unpublished poems (10 pages maximum total), cover letter with bio and 
contact information including email address, & SASE for results with a $15.00 
reading fee to:

 J. P. Dancing Bear, Editor
The American Poetry Journal
P. O. Box 4041
Felton, CA 95018.

IMPORTANT: Please make checks payable to "Dancing Bear" only.
Deadline: June 30, 2005.


Simultaneous submissions acceptable with notice. Multiple submissions 
acceptable with separate reading fee for each group of three poems.  All entries will 
receive a year's subscription to The American Poetry Journal.

-- 

J.P. Dancing Bear
Host of Out of Our Minds - KKUP, People's Radio 91.5 FM, Cupertino
http://www.kkup.com

Editor
The American Poetry Journal
http://www.americanpoetryjournal.com

Owner
Dream Horse Press
http://dreamhorsepress.com

Homepage
http://value.net/~dbear

Billy Last Crow
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1932339213/qid=1094576769/sr=1-1
/ref=sr_1_1/103-9728881-0102257?v=glance&s=books
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 20:17:17 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:17:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotland's forgotten poet 
Message-ID: <190.391c9b1a.2f3abe9d@aol.com>

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=148682005
He's a poet . . and now we'll know it 

JANE BRADLEY 

HE was Scotland's forgotten poet and the greatest inspiration of Robert 
Burns. 

But an unmarked statue of 18th-century writer Robert Fergusson erected 
outside Edinburgh's Canongate Kirkyard has done little to enhance his reputation. 


    
    
    


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From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au  Tue Feb  8 20:32:48 2005
From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:32:48 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] stings's song
In-Reply-To: <200502081701.j18H08An009472@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20050209013249.82890.qmail@web51405.mail.yahoo.com>


Jeff, I like most of this as a song, but the first stanza has [for me] a couple of clangers.

1. seagulls don't play, they're too busy fighting each other for food; rats with wings.

2. i prefer "salty light" rather than "sodium light". using a [i think] Latin and scientific term sticks out in a song that mainly uses an Anglo Saxon lexicon.

but apart from that it's pretty good [for a musician]

Regards, Robert Lane.

 

"All This Time"
Sting

I looked out across
The river today
I saw a city in the fog and an old church tower
Where the seagulls play
I saw the sad shire horses walking home
In the sodium light
I saw two priests on the ferry
October geese on a cold winter's night

And all this time, the river flowed
Endlessly to the sea

Two priests came round our house tonight
One young, one old, to offer prayers for the dying
To serve the final rite
One to learn, one to teach
Which was the cold wind blows
Fussing and flapping in priestly black
Like a murder of crows

And all this time, the river flowed
Endlessly to the sea
If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
And I'd bury the old man,
I'd bury him at sea

Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth
Better to be poor than a fat man in the eye of a
needle
And as these words were spoken I swore I hear
The old man laughing:
"What good is a used up world and how could it be
Worth having?"

And all this time the river flowed
Endlessly like a silent tear
And all this time the river flowed
Father, if Jesus exists,
Then how come he never lived here

The teachers told us, the Romans built this place
They built a wall and a temple, an edge of the empire
Garrison town,
They lived and they died, they prayed to their gods
But the stone gods did not make a sound
And their empire crumbled, 'til all that was left
Were the stones the workmen found

And all this time the river flowed
In the falling light of a northern sun
If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
Men go crazy in congregations
But they only get better
One by one
One by one...


=====
Jeff Newberry

"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"

__________________________________________________





Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings




---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb  8 20:41:05 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:41:05 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotland's forgotten poet 
References: <190.391c9b1a.2f3abe9d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c50e48$6e9c2c10$ee9c9951@Robin>

<<
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=148682005
He's a poet . . and now we'll know it

JANE BRADLEY

HE was Scotland's forgotten poet and the greatest inspiration of Robert
Burns.

But an unmarked statue of 18th-century writer Robert Fergusson erected
outside Edinburgh's Canongate Kirkyard has done little to enhance his
reputation.
>>

To suggest that Fergusson (even outside Scotland) is "forgotten" seems to me
(like Mark Twain's comment on reports of his death) just ever-so-slightly
exagerrated.

Next to Burns (and well ahead of any gaelic or women writers of the time)
he's easily the best-known 19thC Scottish poet.

The next down the line is Alan Ramsay.

Forgotten?  Hardly.

Try here:

             http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_se/fergusson/poems.html

Robin Hamilton












_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 20:42:24 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:42:24 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
	Reasonable Facsimiles: Twins, Mirrors and Doppelgangers
Message-ID: <158.4a0dc4ca.2f3ac480@aol.com>

From:         Tamara Sellman <tamarasellman at MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: flash fiction/prose poem contest
Just a week remains to get your submissions in for the PERIPHERY flash
fiction/prose poem contest! Theme for 2005: PERIPHERY 3 ~"Reasonable
Facsimiles:
Twins, Mirrors and Doppelgangers."

Postmark deadline: February 15, annually. Winner and honorable mentions
published in Periphery, released August 1 annually.

Prize: $50, 3 copies of collectible print zine and publication. All
manuscripts also considered for general publication in Margin (www.magical-
realism.com
). Sim subs okay with notification, but entry fee nonrefundable. Previously
published okay; please credit first publisher in cover letter. Entries not
returned.
 Entry fee: $7.50 covers up to 5 poems or short shorts (each 500 words or
less); additional submissions, $2 each. Make checks payable to Tamara Kaye
Sellman. Proceeds go to produce the August collector's edition of Periphery
and to
pay the prize. Judged blind by staff. See general guidelines at the website
(
www.angelfire.com/wa2/margin/contests.html) for complete details. Questions:
 magicalrealismmaven at yahoo.com (no electronic submissions, please)

Winner of the 2004 PERIPHERY contest, "The Living Landscape" ~ Marjorie
Manwaring of Seattle, WA for her prose poem, "Sculptor."

Not sure what magical realism is, or aren't certain you can differentiate a
prose poem from a flash fiction? Kill two birds with one stone! Buy the
2004
edition, PERIPHERY 2: THE LIVING LANDSCAPE for $5 and see what we're all
about!
Make checks payable to Tamara Kaye Sellman.
 Send to:

Periphery
c/o MARGIN: Exploring Modern Magical Realism
321 High School Road NE, PMB 204
Bainbridge Island, WA 98110
www.magical-realism.com
Since 2000, the world's only continuous
survey of literary magical realism

Member, CLMP, since 2001


    


    

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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 20:52:02 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:52:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] vancouver: AWP's 2005 Conference 
Message-ID: <1a5.309de9d9.2f3ac6c2@aol.com>

Dear Friend,

The deadline to pre-register for AWP's 2005 Conference in Vancouver, B. C.
is just around the corner -- February 20, 2005. After this date AWP will no
longer be accepting pre-registration orders. To receive the reduced
pre-registration rates we encourage you to register today! Conference
attendees who are not registered by February 20, 2005 must register on-site
at the Hyatt Regency Hotel. To register, simply visit our secure online
registration site:
<http://storefront.awpwriter.org/register>.

You may also download a registration form or register by telephone at (703)
993-4301. All registrations sent by mail must be post marked by February 20,
2005.? 

AWP's 2005 Conference & Bookfair in Vancouver, British Columbia, will take
place March 30 - April 2, 2005, at the Hyatt Regency and Fairmont Hotel
Vancouver. The 2005? AWP Conference will feature headline readings by W.S.
Merwin, Anne Carson, Ursula K. Le Guin, Michael Ondaatje, and many others,
along with hundreds of panels, roundtables and workshops.

To preview AWP's 2005 Conference program or for more information, visit us
at:

<http://www.awpwriter.org/pdf/05confSchedule.pdf>.

AWP's conference hotels are fully booked, but AWP has secured discounted
rates for attendees? at the Marriott Vancouver Pinnacle Downtown, located
just two blocks from the conference site hotels. Please make your hotel
arrangements soon. To make your reservations today
call 1-800-207-4150, or make your reservations online at:

<http://marriott.com/property/propertypage.mi?marshaCode=YVRDT&groupCode=awp
awpa>

Come join us for the Big Literary Conversation -- Canadian style!

If you have any questions or concerns please let us know.? If you have
already registered -- Thank you.

We look forward to seeing you in Vancouver!

Best wishes,
______________________________
Matt Scanlon
AWP Director of Conferences
MS 1E3
George Mason University
Fairfax, VA? 22030

2005 AWP Conference & Bookfair in Vancouver
<http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/index.htm>


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From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Feb  8 21:08:27 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 02:08:27 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotland's forgotten poet 
In-Reply-To: <002e01c50e48$6e9c2c10$ee9c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <ECOWS03MTYzRH0Cmx8i0001683c@smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk>

Yeahwell, you can never foretell what journalists are going to forget. Who's
round it is, maybe.

W.S. Graham. That would be nearer the mark. 

P
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of 
> Robin Hamilton
> Sent: 09 February 2005 01:41
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Scotland's forgotten poet 
> 
> <<
> http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=148682005
> He's a poet . . and now we'll know it
> 
> JANE BRADLEY
> 
> HE was Scotland's forgotten poet and the greatest inspiration 
> of Robert Burns.
> 
> But an unmarked statue of 18th-century writer Robert 
> Fergusson erected outside Edinburgh's Canongate Kirkyard has 
> done little to enhance his reputation.
> >>
> 
> To suggest that Fergusson (even outside Scotland) is 
> "forgotten" seems to me (like Mark Twain's comment on reports 
> of his death) just ever-so-slightly exagerrated.
> 
> Next to Burns (and well ahead of any gaelic or women writers 
> of the time) he's easily the best-known 19thC Scottish poet.
> 
> The next down the line is Alan Ramsay.
> 
> Forgotten?  Hardly.
> 
> Try here:
> 
>              http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_se/fergusson/poems.html
> 
> Robin Hamilton
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb  8 21:26:46 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 02:26:46 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotland's forgotten poet 
References: <ECOWS03MTYzRH0Cmx8i0001683c@smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <004c01c50e4e$cf200fb0$ee9c9951@Robin>

> W.S. Graham. That would be nearer the mark.
>
> P

He was re-edited last year by Matthew Francis for Faber -- a lovely piece of
work.

Graham suffered a dip after "The Nightfishing" and before _Malcolm Mooney's
Land_, but forgotten?

My Favourite (rightly) Forgotten Scottish Poet is David Macbeth Moir, who
published poems in the sapphic stanza in Blackwoods in the nineteenth
century.

The Wee McGreegor

... and then there was Robert Sempill of Beltrees (c1594-c1668) who (like
Surrey and the so-called Shakespearean Sonnet) lost-out to Burns when the
stanza form he originated transmogrified from Standard Habbie to the Burns
Stanza:

Kilbarchan now may say alas!
For she hath lost her Game and Grace
Both Trixie and the Maiden Trace:
            But what remeid?
For no man can supply his place,
            Hab Simpson's deid.

Now who shall play 'The day it daws' ?
Or 'Hunt up when the cock he craws' ?
Or who can for our Kirk-town-cause,
            Stand us in stead ?
On Bagpipes now nobody blaws
            Sen Habbie's dead.




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  9 08:17:12 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:17:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Miroslav Holub, "Interferon"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIELHJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Interferon

Always just one demon in the attic.
Always just one death in the village. And dogs
howl in that direction, while from the other way
the newborn child comes, just one,
to fill the empty space in the big air.

Likewise, cells infected by a virus
send signals out, defenses
are mobilized, and no other virus
gets a chance to settle down
and change this destiny. This phenomenon
is called interference.

And when a poet dies, deep in the night,
a lone black bird wakes up in the thicket
and sings for all it's worth,
while a black rain trickles down
like sperm or something,
the song is bloodstained, the suffocating bird
sings perched on an empty thorax
where the imaginary heart
wakes up to face its forever interfering
futility. And in the morning, the sky's swept clear,
the bird's sleepy, the soil's fertilized,
and the poet is gone.

In Klatovska Street, in Pilsen,
by the railway bridge, there was
a small shop that sold quilts and comforters.
In times when what is needed
is a steel cover for the whole continent,
the quilt business is slack.
The shopkeeper was in trouble.
In such times men of the world
usually turn to art.

In the big shop window
the shopkeeper built
a cottage of quilts and comforters
and staged a performance every night
about a quilted cake-house and a red-quilted
Little Red Riding Hood, while his wife,
in this stuffed masquerade,
played the wolf or the witch,
and he was the padded Hansel,
Gretel, Red Riding Hood or Granny.
To see the two old people
crawling in monstrous floods of textile
around the plump cottage
was not unambiguous.

It was something like the life
of sea cucumbers in the mud
under a cliff. Outside
the surf of war roared and they
carried on their puffy
pantomime, out of time and out of action.

Children used to watch from the street
and then go home. Nothing was sold,
but it was the only pantomime around.

The black bird sand
and the rain poured into the thorax
marked with the Star of David.

But in the actors under the quilts,
l'anima allegra must have woken up
at that moment, so that,
sweating and rapt, they played
the undersea commedia dell'arte
thinking there was no backstage
until a scene was over, moving jerkily
from shopwindow to cottage and back,
with the gaiety of polio-stricken Columbines,
while the sound of drums and bugles never
       reached them.

Or else they thought such a deep
humiliation of old age
and its traditional dignity
interfered with the steps
of men in leather coats
and departures of trains
for human slaughterhouses.
It did.

The black bird sang
and the ravaged sclerotic hearts
hopped in their chests,
and then one morning they did not play,
did not raise the shutters,
the sky was swept clean, the soil fertilized,
the comforters confiscated for the eastern front
and the actors transferred to
the backstage of the world
called Bergen-Belsen.
In place of the quilt shop now
a greengrocer peddles rubbery kohlrabies.

Always just one death in the village.
Always just one demon.
How great is the power of the theater, even if
it ends up collapsing
and vanishing backstage.

Dogs howl in that direction.
And the butterfly pursues
those who stole the flowers.

When we did autopsies
at the psychiatric ward in Bohnice,
in air thick with the urban pollution
of relative futility,
the car would pull up before the barracks
and the inmates would wave
some sort of Labor Day parade flags
from the windows
as one went, hugely alone,
to the solitary mortuary
beyond a grove of trees
where the naked bodies
of ancient schizophrenics
waited, along with two live inmates,
one pulling the corpses up from the basement
on a dumbwaiter and putting them gently
on tables, as a mother would
her unbaptized child,
the other lurking in a dark corner
with a pen dipped in ink
to write the Latin protocol,
his spelling faultless
and nobody uttering a sound, only
the moan of the elevator shaft . . . and the
       knife
slicing the epidermis and dermis made
a sound like tearing silk . . . and it was always
powerful and unprecedented pneumonias
and tumors big as dragon's eggs,
the rain soaked the thorax
and in the roaring silence
one had to break the line of an angel's fall
and dictate the logical sentence
for the ghoul, doomed ages ago . . .
and the schizophrenic's pen in the corner
diligently scratched the paper
like an eager mouse.

We need no prompter,
the puppets said proudly.

The air of this anatomic theater
was filled with interferon,
it was a spectacular personal charge
against the malignant growth, it was
a general amnesty of walls, entropy
was forsworn for the moment,

because there are no bubbles at the bottom
to be cracked by the breeze.

The red balloon outside
soared to the unseen heaven, its chains
stretched by knowing
the nearer the inferno
the greater the paradise,
the nearer the prison cell
the greater the prison.

Cantabit coram latrone omne vacuus viator.

And that is the fierce essence of the theater,
when the actor is tripped of everything
rises to the top of the conflagration
and everything else is hushed
like a much-hunted animal
with muscles still trembling
but with endorphines
and an immense peace in the brain.

Yes, even a whale will sometimes leave the herd
to hurl itself into shallow water and die in the
       sun
like a collapsed cathedral, with a pushed-out
       penis,
and death is buried instantly
in a tiny grain of sand
and the sea is laughing.

Ask felled trees; in broken speech
they preach about saplings. In the galactic
jargon of white dwarves
stars of the main sequence
shine forever.

In the non-Euclidean curved space
which passes comprehension as
the interference of the theater does,
you hear forever the voices of children
from the elementary school of death,
children from kitchen puppet tragedies,
and children from military junkets
when spearing and subsequent flinging of legs
was something like curry,
the condiment of mercenary marches,
voices of children passing comprehension--

But we washed behind our ears,
we didn't pull the cat's tail,
we haven't put
our fingers into sockets--

What else is left
in the universe of hominization
slow as the decay of tritium,
except learning about the growing shame of
         demons--

since the time of the Aztecs, high priests
haven't presented offerings while dressed
in the skin of a freshly skinned prisoner.

We need no prompter, said--

One Christmas, a drunk
dressed up as a devil
fell down the stairs and lay there,
and a child, experiencing
that embarrassing joy just inches from fright,
ran out, upon hearing the noise, and called--

Mummy, come here, there's a dead devil--

And he was, although the actor got up
after another sip. Maybe dogs howled,
but only by a dark mistake.
The stars of the main sequence shone,
the bird was about to sing in the saplings,
the child trembled a little
from the chill of three million years,
in the big air, and was told
poetically,

it's all just a game,
look, the butterfly's bringing
the flowers back . . . and
there's no other devil . . . and
the nearer the paradise . . .

It believed and it didn't--

--Miroslav Holub

tr. David Young and Dana H?bov?

fr. Interferon, or On Theater
[Oberlin, Ohio: Field Translation Series 7, 1982]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



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From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Feb  9 09:59:36 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:59:36 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotland's forgotten poet 
In-Reply-To: <004c01c50e4e$cf200fb0$ee9c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <ECOWS04MqGTvEJctzbj0001a9d6@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>

> > W.S. Graham. That would be nearer the mark.
> >
> > P
> 
> He was re-edited last year by Matthew Francis for Faber -- a 
> lovely piece of work.
> 
> Graham suffered a dip after "The Nightfishing" and before 
> _Malcolm Mooney's Land_, but forgotten?
> 

True -- his reputation is getting a thorough refurbishment at the moment:
there's a conference coming up at Cambridge in April
http://www.wsgraham2005.com/




From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Feb  9 13:10:09 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:10:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 
Message-ID: <001801c50ed2$97abb1e0$2a089942@Helen>

Can anybody recommend a free download of Billy Collins reading?  

Students doing a presentation on him want a recommendation.  

Thanks, 

Helen
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed Feb  9 13:25:22 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:25:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 
References: <001801c50ed2$97abb1e0$2a089942@Helen>
Message-ID: <001001c50ed4$b9bd8c70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

http://www.bigsnap.com/b-tbc.html
Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Helen Ruggieri 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:10 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 


  Can anybody recommend a free download of Billy Collins reading?  

  Students doing a presentation on him want a recommendation.  

  Thanks, 

  Helen


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Feb  9 13:33:13 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:33:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 
References: <001801c50ed2$97abb1e0$2a089942@Helen>
	<001001c50ed4$b9bd8c70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <001c01c50ed5$d0dc2b40$2a089942@Helen>

I can't believe I said Billy Graham - is that Freudian? 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Old Mole 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 


  http://www.bigsnap.com/b-tbc.html
  Tad Richards
  www.opus40.org
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Helen Ruggieri 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:10 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 


    Can anybody recommend a free download of Billy Collins reading?  

    Students doing a presentation on him want a recommendation.  

    Thanks, 

    Helen


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



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From tad at opus40.org  Wed Feb  9 13:33:17 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:33:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 
References: <001801c50ed2$97abb1e0$2a089942@Helen>
Message-ID: <001701c50ed5$d5112260$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

BILLY GRAHAM MEETS BILLY COLLINS

The neighbors' dog will not stop praying.
He is praying the same faith-centered belief system
that he prays every time they leave the house.
They must switch him on on their way out.

The neighbors' dog will not stop praying.
I close all the windows in the house
and put on a George Beverly Shea 8-track full blast
but I can still hear him muffled under the music,
praying, praying, praying,

and now I can see him at the Thomas Road Baptist Church,
his head raised confidently as if Jerry Falwell
had turned over his congregation to a praying dog.

When the 8-track finally ends he is still praying,
on the TV tuned to the Christian Broadcasting Network praying,
his eyes fixed on Pat Robertson who is
entreating us to send money

while the other evangelists listen in respectful
silence to the famous praying dog solo,
that endless orison that first established
Billy Collins as an innovative genius.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Helen Ruggieri 
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:10 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 


Can anybody recommend a free download of Billy Collins reading?  

Students doing a presentation on him want a recommendation.  

Thanks, 

Helen



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Feb  9 06:59:27 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 05:59:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 
In-Reply-To: <001701c50ed5$d5112260$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BE2F573F.8192%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 2/9/05 12:33 PM, "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

> BILLY GRAHAM MEETS BILLY COLLINS
> 
> The neighbors' dog will not stop praying.
> He is praying the same faith-centered belief system
> that he prays every time they leave the house.
> They must switch him on on their way out.
> 
> The neighbors' dog will not stop praying.
> I close all the windows in the house
> and put on a George Beverly Shea 8-track full blast
> but I can still hear him muffled under the music,
> praying, praying, praying,
> 
> and now I can see him at the Thomas Road Baptist Church,
> his head raised confidently as if Jerry Falwell
> had turned over his congregation to a praying dog.
> 
> When the 8-track finally ends he is still praying,
> on the TV tuned to the Christian Broadcasting Network praying,
> his eyes fixed on Pat Robertson who is
> entreating us to send money
> 
> while the other evangelists listen in respectful
> silence to the famous praying dog solo,
> that endless orison that first established
> Billy Collins as an innovative genius.
> 
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Helen Ruggieri
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:10 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING
> 
> 
> Can anybody recommend a free download of Billy Collins reading?
> 
> Students doing a presentation on him want a recommendation.
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Helen
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Great parody, Tad, though it frightens me that you know so much about TV
evangelists.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb  9 14:45:41 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:45:41 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotland's forgotten poet 
References: <ECOWS04MqGTvEJctzbj0001a9d6@smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002001c50edf$f06eb450$0d042cd9@Robin>

> > He was re-edited last year by Matthew Francis for Faber -- a
> > lovely piece of work.
> >
> > Graham suffered a dip after "The Nightfishing" and before
> > _Malcolm Mooney's Land_, but forgotten?
> >
>
> True -- his reputation is getting a thorough refurbishment at the moment:
> there's a conference coming up at Cambridge in April
> http://www.wsgraham2005.com/

        Looks good!!!!

I think the sea-change came with _Malcom Mooney's Land_, though I was late
on the boat and only seriously encountered him with _The Instruments In
Their Places_, which I reviewed for _Lines Review_ when Bill Montgomerie was
editing it. .

(I seem to have missed out on the Apocalypse movement generally -- did
McCaig ever republish the work he was writing in the fifties?)

Tom Leonard did a long piece in (I think) _The (New?) Edinburgh Review_, and
(again, I think) Edwin Morgan was in correspondence with Graham in the
50s/60s, pre-MML.

Which makes the sense of Graham as a Scottish poet (was Byron?) qualified in
two ways -- narrowly Glasgow (K, Greenock isn't quite Glasgow) given who was
responding to him, and Scottish?  given how much time he spent in England.

Also, there's the:  "Who is the UK equivalent to Charles Bernstein and
lang-po -- Graham or Prynne?"

        Sad thoughts in a dry season ...

Robin









From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Feb  9 14:51:19 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:51:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] W. S. Graham
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE963@URANIUM.ripon.college>

A Note to the Difficult One

This morning I am ready if you are,
To hear you speaking in your new language.
I think I am beginning to have nearly
A way of writing down what it is I think
You say.  You enunciate very clearly
Terrible words always just beyond me.

I stand in my vocabulary looking out
Through my window of fine water ready
To translate natural occurrences
Into something beyond any idea
Of pleasure.  The wisps of April fly
With light messages to the lonely.

This morning I am ready if you are
To speak.  The early quick rains
Of Spring are drenching the window-glass.
Here in my words looking out
I see your face speaking flying
In a cloud wanting to say something.

     --W. S. Graham, IMPLEMENTS IN THEIR PLACES (1977)


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Robin Hamilton
> Reply To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 9, 2005 1:45 PM
> To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Scotland's forgotten poet 
> 
> > > He was re-edited last year by Matthew Francis for Faber -- a
> > > lovely piece of work.
> > >
> > > Graham suffered a dip after "The Nightfishing" and before
> > > _Malcolm Mooney's Land_, but forgotten?
> > >
> >
> > True -- his reputation is getting a thorough refurbishment at the moment:
> > there's a conference coming up at Cambridge in April
> > http://www.wsgraham2005.com/
> 
>         Looks good!!!!
> 
> I think the sea-change came with _Malcom Mooney's Land_, though I was late
> on the boat and only seriously encountered him with _The Instruments In
> Their Places_, which I reviewed for _Lines Review_ when Bill Montgomerie was
> editing it. .
> 
> (I seem to have missed out on the Apocalypse movement generally -- did
> McCaig ever republish the work he was writing in the fifties?)
> 
> Tom Leonard did a long piece in (I think) _The (New?) Edinburgh Review_, and
> (again, I think) Edwin Morgan was in correspondence with Graham in the
> 50s/60s, pre-MML.
> 
> Which makes the sense of Graham as a Scottish poet (was Byron?) qualified in
> two ways -- narrowly Glasgow (K, Greenock isn't quite Glasgow) given who was
> responding to him, and Scottish?  given how much time he spent in England.
> 
> Also, there's the:  "Who is the UK equivalent to Charles Bernstein and
> lang-po -- Graham or Prynne?"
> 
>         Sad thoughts in a dry season ...
> 
> Robin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
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From gbach at csulb.edu  Wed Feb  9 15:50:36 2005
From: gbach at csulb.edu (Glenn Bach)
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 12:50:36 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: outer edges at Poetics
References: <200502091700.j19H05Ak020780@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <420A779C.5070407@csulb.edu>


Halvard wrote:

> Well, mIEKAL really ought to know that by now the outer edge
> of Los Angeles has exited the world as we know it and is rapidly
> gathering speed.


Didn't Michael C. Ford write, "The world is a suburb of Los Angeles," or 
something similar?

G.

(emerging from lurk mode here in Long Beach, California, a suburb of Los 
Angeles, with no edges, other than the ocean, anywhere in sight)




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb  9 17:34:08 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:34:08 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING
Message-ID: <s20a3b85.054@mail.highland.edu>

Helen Ruggeri said,

>I can't believe I said Billy Graham - is that Freudian?

Maybe. Is my former Driver's Ed instructor from 1959, David Graham,
your Father?  

Kent



From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Feb  9 19:49:26 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:49:26 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotland's forgotten poet 
In-Reply-To: <002001c50edf$f06eb450$0d042cd9@Robin>
Message-ID: <ECOWS06MItnmlX6u1Wy0001cded@smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk>

> I think the sea-change came with _Malcom Mooney's Land_, 
> though I was late on the boat and only seriously encountered 
> him with _The Instruments In Their Places_, which I reviewed 
> for _Lines Review_ when Bill Montgomerie was editing it. .
> 
> (I seem to have missed out on the Apocalypse movement 
> generally -- did McCaig ever republish the work he was 
> writing in the fifties?)

MacCaig was, I think, a bit embarrassed about the New Apocalypse connection.
Maybe embarrassed isn't the right word, but it wasn't a connection he wanted
to sustain. In fact, that's the only thing I know about New Apocalypse.
> 
> Tom Leonard did a long piece in (I think) _The (New?) 
> Edinburgh Review_, and (again, I think) Edwin Morgan was in 
> correspondence with Graham in the 50s/60s, pre-MML.

Edinburgh Review late 90s (issue number, that is) was a Graham feature. I
could pop into the office and take a look if you're interested.

> 
> Which makes the sense of Graham as a Scottish poet (was 
> Byron?) qualified in two ways -- narrowly Glasgow (K, 
> Greenock isn't quite Glasgow) given who was responding to 
> him, and Scottish?  given how much time he spent in England.

Certainly his departure for Cornwall had a significant bearing on his being
(relatively) forgotten in Scotland. People in the know never forgot, of
course, but he wasn't around to promote himself. Hard to think what he was
if not Scottish. 

> 
> Also, there's the:  "Who is the UK equivalent to Charles 
> Bernstein and lang-po -- Graham or Prynne?"

Or Morgan? Rather than a Brit equivalent, I wonder whether there are
analogous groupings working in other languages?

Peter





From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Feb  9 20:08:09 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:08:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 
Message-ID: <74.4d1d7c23.2f3c0df9@aol.com>

If you don't have the book from which this poem (below) comes, get it.
You may have heard tell of the "The Other Frost," but do you know
The Other Sandburg? There is long "prose poem" called "Billy 
Sunday" at the beginning of the collection...this shorter one follows it.
Finnegan


God's Children

       I hear Billy Sunday
       And the Kaiser and the Czar
       Talking about God
Like God was some pal of theirs,
Like the rest of us was in the cold outside,
Like they had been drinking beer with God,
Like as though they know whether God
Calls for a short beer or a gin fizz
Or whether God sleeps in a Y.M.C.A. dormintory
And never goes near a booze bazaar.

When I listen to Billy Sunday
Holler out loud
How God "hates a quitter,"
How God "hates a mutt,"
I can't help it--I feel just like God was some cheap dirty thing
       born from a fiddler's bitch and kicked from one back door
       to another.


Carl Sandburg, _Billy Sunday and Other Poems_, 
Harcourt Brace, 1993
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb  9 20:38:11 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:38:11 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotland's forgotten poet 
References: <ECOWS06MItnmlX6u1Wy0001cded@smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <01bb01c50f11$2ed57950$0d042cd9@Robin>

Peter:

> Edinburgh Review late 90s (issue number, that is) was a Graham feature. I
> could pop into the office and take a look if you're interested.

Got it on my shelves, somewhere -- I ended-up having a nasty row with Tom
over this, as I really couldn't get how Tom could lash Graham into Beckett.

> Or Morgan?

Eddie is sui generis -- I think the closest he came to lang-po was _In
Glasgow to Saturn_.

<<
Rather than a Brit equivalent, I wonder whether there are analogous
groupings working in other languages?
>>

I think Mark Weiss is the best person to call this -- beyond my experitse.

Robin





From eratio at nyc.rr.com  Mon Feb  7 14:08:42 2005
From: eratio at nyc.rr.com (Eratio)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:08:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] eratio postmodern poetry issue five, spring 2005
Message-ID: <AE7120FA-793B-11D9-880C-000D93B497AE@nyc.rr.com>

9


eratio postmodern poetry issue five, spring 2005


http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com



*  poetic language  *

Rosanna Licari
Cyril Wong
Jake Berry
Joseph Armstead
Camille Martin
Diana Magallon
Roy Frisvold
Joel Chace
Peter Jay Shippy
Brad Flis
Thomas Lowe Taylor
Amos Tang
Dorothee Lang
Rizwan Saeed Ahmed
Andrew Nightingale
Aryan Kaganof



*  eidetics  *

David Chikhladze



*  bookshelf  *

Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino reads Amy King, Joel Chace, M?rton 
Kopp?ny,
and Alan Halsey, John Byrum and Geraldine Monk in The Ahadada Reader



*  the eratio gallery  *

Geof Huth
August Highland
Nancy Burr & Nico Vassilakis



edited by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino


eratio appears for spring and fall and is always reading
read the guidelines before sending:

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/contact.html


eratio postmodern poetry issue five, spring 2005

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com


9





From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Feb  9 20:54:36 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:54:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Notice: NewPoetry goes dark on Thurs-Sat.
Message-ID: <d5.2186baec.2f3c18dc@aol.com>

See below. We're being taken off-line sometime on Thursday.
So get your posts in now. NewPoetry will miss its 4th anniversary;
founded Feb 11, 2001. My thanks to Contributing Correspondents,
Anny, David, Jim C, Paul, Jeff, Tad & Hal, who are charged with 
keeping the list stoked with poetry-related info. Special thanks to Hal 
for his ongoing "Poem by others:" and the new "Q & A:" posts. We had 
a flurry of recent subs; who told about this secret list?....but welcome all. 
 
If we never come back up, it's been nice knowing you. 
Jim Finnegan
list mangyer
--
Folks:
[apologies for cross postings)

This message affects the following lists and their associated sub-lists:

? api, asbwp, bizcom, cafe-blue, chaucerweb, csana-l, ebs, hel-l, 
? hollinsmuse, iafa-l, medhum, medren, new-poetry, pro.writing, 
? sfra-l, thel, and watermarks

Important information: Starting Thursday, February 10th through
some time on Saturday, Feb 12th, several computer servers hosted
by the Center for Applied Technologies in the Humanities (CATH)
at Virginia Tech will be taken OFF LINE in order to accommodate 
a move from one location at Virginia Tech to another.? The affected
machines are WIZ.CATH.VT.EDU, IDLE.CATH.VT.EDU, and ADA.CATH.VT.EDU.

In addition to the above email lists, these machines host many
organizational websites, MOOs, the Moveable Type blog server,
the Grammar Gym quiz processors and score recording system, and
other less used utilities.

If all goes well, the servers will be back on line quickly after
their relocation and reconfiguration.? But during the Off Line
period, please refrain from sending messages to these
email lists and from using the other services.

Thanks in advance for your patience during this maintenance
period; please get in touch with me directly after Sunday, Feb.
13th, if you encounter any difficulties with the CATH servers,
listserver, MOOs, Grammar Gym, etc.

Best,

-- 
? ? ? ...Len

Len Hatfield
English/CATH Tech Mgr
Virginia Tech
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From MillB at aol.com  Wed Feb  9 22:36:58 2005
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:36:58 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Notice: NewPoetry goes dark on Thurs-Sat.
Message-ID: <bf.50d12435.2f3c30da@aol.com>

What?  Is the NewPoetry list going away?
 

What did  I miss?
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed Feb  9 23:05:07 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:05:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Notice: NewPoetry goes dark on Thurs-Sat.
References: <bf.50d12435.2f3c30da@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c50f25$b74b5020$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I think Jim may have been a little melodramatic. It's being closed down briefly while Virginia Tech (home of technical virgins?) changes servers. What I can't figure out is how long - hours? a couple of days? - or how we'll know when it's back.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MillB at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 10:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Notice: NewPoetry goes dark on Thurs-Sat.


  What?  Is the NewPoetry list going away?


  What did I miss?


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From grahamd at vbe.com  Wed Feb  9 23:15:54 2005
From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:15:54 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Notice: NewPoetry goes dark on Thurs-Sat.
In-Reply-To: <003d01c50f25$b74b5020$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BE303C1A.4216%grahamd@vbe.com>

on 2/9/05 10:05 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

I think Jim may have been a little melodramatic. It's being closed down
briefly while Virginia Tech (home of technical virgins?) changes servers.
What I can't figure out is how long - hours? a couple of days? - or how
we'll know when it's back.


Tad Richards
==========

Should be back up by Sunday, it seems from Len's note.  How we'll know it's
back?  I dunno, since Len asks us not to send any postings until it's up.
Maybe he'll notify us?
==========


Folks:
[apologies for cross postings)

This message affects the following lists and their associated sub-lists:

? api, asbwp, bizcom, cafe-blue, chaucerweb, csana-l, ebs, hel-l,
? hollinsmuse, iafa-l, medhum, medren, new-poetry, pro.writing,
? sfra-l, thel, and watermarks

Important information: Starting Thursday, February 10th through
some time on Saturday, Feb 12th, several computer servers hosted
by the Center for Applied Technologies in the Humanities (CATH)
at Virginia Tech will be taken OFF LINE in order to accommodate
a move from one location at Virginia Tech to another.? The affected
machines are WIZ.CATH.VT.EDU, IDLE.CATH.VT.EDU, and ADA.CATH.VT.EDU.

In addition to the above email lists, these machines host many
organizational websites, MOOs, the Moveable Type blog server,
the Grammar Gym quiz processors and score recording system, and
other less used utilities.

If all goes well, the servers will be back on line quickly after
their relocation and reconfiguration.? But during the Off Line
period, please refrain from sending messages to these
email lists and from using the other services.

Thanks in advance for your patience during this maintenance
period; please get in touch with me directly after Sunday, Feb.
13th, if you encounter any difficulties with the CATH servers,
listserver, MOOs, Grammar Gym, etc.

Best,

-- 
? ? ? ...Len

Len Hatfield
English/CATH Tech Mgr
Virginia Tech
David Graham
grahamd at vbe.com
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  9 23:26:38 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:26:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A: Will Alexander whiffs on a wild pitch
In-Reply-To: <d5.2186baec.2f3c18dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEENGJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Will Alexander whiffs on a wild pitch

Marcella Durand: Have you heard this theory that the chemical
involved in the Big Bang is the same as when people fall in love?

Will Alexander: Basically what love is, is conjunction. What I
think plagues the West is this whole idea of separation. Lots
of beings, lots of objects. It's why the ecological situation is
such a disaster. I've thought many times about how we can run 
an economic system without a stable weather system. You 
can't. Whether you call it global warming or climate change,
it will destroy the economic base. A perspicacious 10-year-old
can figure that out. I've talked to children and they understand it.

fr. *The Poetry Project Newsletter* No. 202, Feb./Mar. 2005

Hal         Braised pork bun (Taiwanese style)

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Feb 11 11:00:31 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:00:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Rustbelt Roethke 2005
Message-ID: <003f01c51053$082ffda0$6f0a9942@Helen>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Judith Kerman" <kerman at svsu.edu>
To: <japalen at aol.com>; <ruggieri at exchange.upb.pitt.edu>; 
<bobrien4 at juno.com>; <hruggier at localnet.com>; <bmathern at nmu.edu>; 
<cnovack at nyy.rr.com>; "Adrienne Lewis" <adlewis at svsu.edu>; "C.Vince Samarco" 
<cvsamarc at svsu.edu>; "Melissa Seitz" <mseitz at svsu.edu>; 
<Robert.McDonough at tri-c.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:11 PM
Subject: Rustbelt Roethke 2005


> Dear Rustbelt Roethke alums,
>
> Here's the notice for 2005. Please share it with people who might be
> qualified and interested. Thanks!
>
> Hope you can come back!
>
> Judy
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Friend,
>
> Like writers' workshops but tired of the star system?
>
> For the third year in a row, the Rustbelt Roethke Professional Writers
> Workshop will be offered at Saginaw Valley State University. Rustbelt
> Roethke is a unique summer writing program where you can relax, meet
> friends, influence people, recharge. This year's program is July 17-24.
>
> The workshop is limited to 20 participants, all of them writers of
> professional standing. Workshopping groups (poetry, fiction, creative
> non-fiction) will be limited to 4; all participants will be featured in
> evening readings open to the public. Any participant who wishes to do so
> is welcome to give an afternoon workshop or presentation for the general
> public (this may help you get funding if you teach at a college). All
> participants' names will be listed in program publicity.
>
> The cost is low and the ambiance is high.  For full information,
> please
> go to http://www.svsu.edu/~kerman/Rustbelt
>
> On Saturday, July 23, we will again feature a full-day literary
> festival and book fair, including participants, other recognized
> writers, and an open mike. If you can't make the workshop, you're still
> welcome to come on Saturday and read. Recognized writers can offer their
> books for sale at the book fair; we also invite regional literary
> presses and magazines to rent a table ($50). If your publisher might be
> interested, please pass the word.
>
> I'm running the event, so if you have any questions (or something on
> the site doesn't seem to work) please contact me.  There is a form on
> the website - if you are interested in coming, please fill it out and
> click
> "submit". You will not be obligating yourself, just giving me some idea
> how many people might be coming. Information about fees, deadlines, etc.
> is included on the site. There is also a page of photos from our first
> two years.
>
> Thanks, and I hope to see you in July!
>
> Judith Kerman
> Professor of English, Saginaw Valley State University
> and publisher, Mayapple Press
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Fri Feb 11 11:09:07 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:09:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Rustbelt Roethke 2005
References: <003f01c51053$082ffda0$6f0a9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <005101c51054$0607f810$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Does this mean we're back?

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Rustbelt Roethke 2005


>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Judith Kerman" <kerman at svsu.edu>
> To: <japalen at aol.com>; <ruggieri at exchange.upb.pitt.edu>; 
> <bobrien4 at juno.com>; <hruggier at localnet.com>; <bmathern at nmu.edu>; 
> <cnovack at nyy.rr.com>; "Adrienne Lewis" <adlewis at svsu.edu>; "C.Vince 
> Samarco" <cvsamarc at svsu.edu>; "Melissa Seitz" <mseitz at svsu.edu>; 
> <Robert.McDonough at tri-c.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:11 PM
> Subject: Rustbelt Roethke 2005
>
>
>> Dear Rustbelt Roethke alums,
>>
>> Here's the notice for 2005. Please share it with people who might be
>> qualified and interested. Thanks!
>>
>> Hope you can come back!
>>
>> Judy
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Dear Friend,
>>
>> Like writers' workshops but tired of the star system?
>>
>> For the third year in a row, the Rustbelt Roethke Professional Writers
>> Workshop will be offered at Saginaw Valley State University. Rustbelt
>> Roethke is a unique summer writing program where you can relax, meet
>> friends, influence people, recharge. This year's program is July 17-24.
>>
>> The workshop is limited to 20 participants, all of them writers of
>> professional standing. Workshopping groups (poetry, fiction, creative
>> non-fiction) will be limited to 4; all participants will be featured in
>> evening readings open to the public. Any participant who wishes to do so
>> is welcome to give an afternoon workshop or presentation for the general
>> public (this may help you get funding if you teach at a college). All
>> participants' names will be listed in program publicity.
>>
>> The cost is low and the ambiance is high.  For full information,
>> please
>> go to http://www.svsu.edu/~kerman/Rustbelt
>>
>> On Saturday, July 23, we will again feature a full-day literary
>> festival and book fair, including participants, other recognized
>> writers, and an open mike. If you can't make the workshop, you're still
>> welcome to come on Saturday and read. Recognized writers can offer their
>> books for sale at the book fair; we also invite regional literary
>> presses and magazines to rent a table ($50). If your publisher might be
>> interested, please pass the word.
>>
>> I'm running the event, so if you have any questions (or something on
>> the site doesn't seem to work) please contact me.  There is a form on
>> the website - if you are interested in coming, please fill it out and
>> click
>> "submit". You will not be obligating yourself, just giving me some idea
>> how many people might be coming. Information about fees, deadlines, etc.
>> is included on the site. There is also a page of photos from our first
>> two years.
>>
>> Thanks, and I hope to see you in July!
>>
>> Judith Kerman
>> Professor of English, Saginaw Valley State University
>> and publisher, Mayapple Press
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Feb 11 11:11:13 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:11:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Rustbelt Roethke 2005
References: <003f01c51053$082ffda0$6f0a9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <00d001c51054$50e10a70$a2ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Hey it got through! The curfew is _over_!

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Rustbelt Roethke 2005


>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Judith Kerman" <kerman at svsu.edu>
> To: <japalen at aol.com>; <ruggieri at exchange.upb.pitt.edu>;
> <bobrien4 at juno.com>; <hruggier at localnet.com>; <bmathern at nmu.edu>;
> <cnovack at nyy.rr.com>; "Adrienne Lewis" <adlewis at svsu.edu>; "C.Vince
Samarco"
> <cvsamarc at svsu.edu>; "Melissa Seitz" <mseitz at svsu.edu>;
> <Robert.McDonough at tri-c.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:11 PM
> Subject: Rustbelt Roethke 2005
>
>
> > Dear Rustbelt Roethke alums,
> >
> > Here's the notice for 2005. Please share it with people who might be
> > qualified and interested. Thanks!
> >
> > Hope you can come back!
> >
> > Judy
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Dear Friend,
> >
> > Like writers' workshops but tired of the star system?
> >
> > For the third year in a row, the Rustbelt Roethke Professional Writers
> > Workshop will be offered at Saginaw Valley State University. Rustbelt
> > Roethke is a unique summer writing program where you can relax, meet
> > friends, influence people, recharge. This year's program is July 17-24.
> >
> > The workshop is limited to 20 participants, all of them writers of
> > professional standing. Workshopping groups (poetry, fiction, creative
> > non-fiction) will be limited to 4; all participants will be featured in
> > evening readings open to the public. Any participant who wishes to do so
> > is welcome to give an afternoon workshop or presentation for the general
> > public (this may help you get funding if you teach at a college). All
> > participants' names will be listed in program publicity.
> >
> > The cost is low and the ambiance is high.  For full information,
> > please
> > go to http://www.svsu.edu/~kerman/Rustbelt
> >
> > On Saturday, July 23, we will again feature a full-day literary
> > festival and book fair, including participants, other recognized
> > writers, and an open mike. If you can't make the workshop, you're still
> > welcome to come on Saturday and read. Recognized writers can offer their
> > books for sale at the book fair; we also invite regional literary
> > presses and magazines to rent a table ($50). If your publisher might be
> > interested, please pass the word.
> >
> > I'm running the event, so if you have any questions (or something on
> > the site doesn't seem to work) please contact me.  There is a form on
> > the website - if you are interested in coming, please fill it out and
> > click
> > "submit". You will not be obligating yourself, just giving me some idea
> > how many people might be coming. Information about fees, deadlines, etc.
> > is included on the site. There is also a page of photos from our first
> > two years.
> >
> > Thanks, and I hope to see you in July!
> >
> > Judith Kerman
> > Professor of English, Saginaw Valley State University
> > and publisher, Mayapple Press
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Feb 11 11:30:26 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:30:26 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Rustbelt Roethke 2005
References: <003f01c51053$082ffda0$6f0a9942@Helen>
	<005101c51054$0607f810$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <00e001c51056$fe447ba0$a2ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

As lively as ever, and if I am not wrong, it is February 11, the 4th
Birthday of James Finnegan's creation!

Anny


From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 5:09 PM


> Does this mean we're back?
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org




From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Feb 10 19:36:43 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:36:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] stings's song
In-Reply-To: <20050209013249.82890.qmail@web51405.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050209013249.82890.qmail@web51405.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <303a84274e216668b84c930fc17a40a4@mac.com>


On Feb 8, 2005, at 8:32 PM, robert lane wrote:

> Jeff, I like most of this as a song, but the first stanza has [for me] 
> a couple of clangers.
>
> 1. seagulls don't play, they're too busy fighting each other for food; 
> rats with wings.
>
> 2. i?prefer "salty light" rather than "sodium light". using a [i 
> think] Latin and scientific term sticks out in a?song that?mainly uses 
> an?Anglo Saxon lexicon.

I share your general opinion (below) but "sodium lamp" isn't Latinized 
"salt lamp" -- it's one of three kinds of high-efficiency very bright 
lights for outdoor applications such as parking lots and street lamps. 
The  other two are metal halide and mercury vapor.

Best,

Michael


> but apart from that it's pretty good [for a musician]
>
> Regards, Robert Lane.
>
> ?
>
> "All This Time"
> Sting
>
> I looked out across
> The river today
> I saw a city in the fog and an old church tower
> Where the seagulls play
> I saw the sad shire horses walking home
> In the sodium light
> I saw two priests on the ferry
> October geese on a cold winter's night
>
> And all this time, the river flowed
> Endlessly to the sea
>
> Two priests came round our house tonight
> One young, one old, to offer prayers for the dying
> To serve the final rite
> One to learn, one to teach
> Which was the cold wind blows
> Fussing and flapping in priestly black
> Like a murder of crows
>
> And all this time, the river flowed
> Endlessly to the sea
> If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
> And I'd bury the old man,
> I'd bury him at sea
>
> Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth
> Better to be poor than a fat man in the eye of a
> needle
> And as these words were spoken I swore I hear
> The old man laughing:"What good is a used up world and how could it be
> Worth having?"
>
> And all this time the river flowed
> Endlessly like a silent tear
> And all this time the river flowed
> Father, if Jesus exists,
> Then how come he never lived here
>
> The teachers told us, the Romans built this place
> They built a wall and a temple, an edge of the empire
> Garrison town,
> They lived and they died, they prayed to their gods
> But the stone gods did not make a sound
> And their empire crumbled, 'til all that was left
> Were the stones the workmen found
>
> And all this time the river flowed
> In the falling light of a northern sun
> If I had my way I'd take a boat from the river
> Men go crazy in congregations
> But they only get better
> One by one
> One by one...
>
>
> =====
> Jeff Newberry
>
> "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> especially when your only friend
> talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> and you do just the same as him."
> --Jimi Hendrix,! "My Friend"
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
> Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com
> Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
> Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/?
> Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au
> l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings
>
>
>  Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Feb 11 11:55:58 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:55:58 -0500
Subject: Fw: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING 
Message-ID: <00c301c5105a$8fbee2c0$6f0a9942@Helen>

I have this overwhelming urge to send money - what's your address.

xxx
h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING


> On 2/9/05 12:33 PM, "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org> wrote:
>
>> BILLY GRAHAM MEETS BILLY COLLINS
>>
>> The neighbors' dog will not stop praying.
>> He is praying the same faith-centered belief system
>> that he prays every time they leave the house.
>> They must switch him on on their way out.
>>
>> The neighbors' dog will not stop praying.
>> I close all the windows in the house
>> and put on a George Beverly Shea 8-track full blast
>> but I can still hear him muffled under the music,
>> praying, praying, praying,
>>
>> and now I can see him at the Thomas Road Baptist Church,
>> his head raised confidently as if Jerry Falwell
>> had turned over his congregation to a praying dog.
>>
>> When the 8-track finally ends he is still praying,
>> on the TV tuned to the Christian Broadcasting Network praying,
>> his eyes fixed on Pat Robertson who is
>> entreating us to send money
>>
>> while the other evangelists listen in respectful
>> silence to the famous praying dog solo,
>> that endless orison that first established
>> Billy Collins as an innovative genius.
>>
>>
>> Tad Richards
>> www.opus40.org
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Helen Ruggieri
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:10 PM
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING
>>
>>
>> Can anybody recommend a free download of Billy Collins reading?
>>
>> Students doing a presentation on him want a recommendation.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Helen
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>
>>
> Great parody, Tad, though it frightens me that you know so much about TV
> evangelists.
>
> Paul
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Feb 11 11:56:51 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:56:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING
References: <s20a3b85.054@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <00c801c5105a$af15a6e0$6f0a9942@Helen>

Is he the same Graham who invented the cracker? 
h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 5:34 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] BILLY GRAHAM READING


> Helen Ruggeri said,
> 
>>I can't believe I said Billy Graham - is that Freudian?
> 
> Maybe. Is my former Driver's Ed instructor from 1959, David Graham,
> your Father?  
> 
> Kent
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>



From acgold01 at louisville.edu  Thu Feb 10 23:54:53 2005
From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:54:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New books from Wisconsin
Message-ID: <s20bf468.052@gwise.louisville.edu>

I wanted to let everyone know about the first two publications in the
critical series that I co-edit with Lynn Keller and Dee Morris for the
U. of Wisconsin Press.  Clicking on the URLs should get you straight to
the appropriate page on the UW website, and to ordering information. 
(Unsurprising tip: they're cheaper through Amazon.)

Jorie Graham
Essays on the Poetry
Edited by Thomas Gardner
328 pp. 6 x 9 
ISBN 0-299-20320-4 Cloth $65.00 s
ISBN 0-299-20324-7 Paper $24.95 s
http://www.wisc.edu/wisconsinpress/books/3590.htm 

Paracritical Hinge
Essays, Talks, Notes, Interviews
Nathaniel Mackey
312 pp. 6 x 9 2 illustrations
ISBN 0-299-20400-6 Cloth $65.00 s
ISBN 0-299-20404-9 Paper $24.95 s
http://www.wisc.edu/wisconsinpress/books/2600.htm 

Alan Golding




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 11 02:00:37 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:00:37 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry as Astronomy
Message-ID: <200502110639.j1B6bapc299632@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

is onomy?

----------
>From: Jeff Newberry <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry as Astronomy
>Date: Sat, Dec 11, 2004, 1:09 PM
>

> Astrology is a science?
>
> Jeff
>
> --- Chris Stroffolino  <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Do people still call astronomy a "hard science"
>> while astrology, by contrast, is a "soft science"?
>>
>> Is the relationship of astronomy to astrology
>> analogous to the relationship between economy and
>> ecology?
>>
>> Is there such a thing as psychonomy,
>> and would it have a similar relationship to
>> psychology?
>>
>> And what would this have to do with poetry?
>> (am I doing a good job of just asking these
>> questions
>> without letting my own biases get in the way?)
>>
>> I'd really love to hear other's thoughts on these
>> questions--
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> In a related (but for me less important) issue, Bob
>> G's distinction between
>> "subject-bound" and "linguistic free play" is
>> interesting,
>> and yes it's possible the writer who utilizes chance
>> operations
>> or who truly believes s/he's only interested in the
>> sound of words, etc.,
>> is at least as "soul revealing" as the one who
>> believes s/he's primarily
>> "soul revealing" (and vice versa)....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> >From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> >Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Lake & Jackson Mac Low
>> >Date: Sat, Dec 11, 2004, 9:33 AM
>> >
>>
>> > You know, I've often wondered why the cultural
>> field of Poetry can't be
>> > more like, say, the cultural field of Astronomy.
>> In the latter, there is
>> > a spectrum of interests and disciplines, and
>> though there are debates
>> > aplenty, everyone's contribution is accepted and
>> respected.
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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>>
>
>
> =====
> Jeff Newberry
>
> "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> especially when your only friend
> talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> and you do just the same as him."
> --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
>
>
>   
> __________________________________
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> http://my.yahoo.com
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 11 13:29:33 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:29:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry as Astronomy
In-Reply-To: <200502110639.j1B6bapc299632@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEALKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

  
{    is onomy?

Good question! No, a great one!!

Hal      "A discouraging number of reputable poets
            are sane beyond recall."
		           --E. B. White
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Feb 11 06:58:46 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:58:46 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Havel nice day
Message-ID: <BE31FA16.81D0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Recently in a discussion with a list member named Rosy, the subject of Havel
came up. I said at the time I hadn't heard from him lately. Here's a recent
quote on  the subject of the EU lifting sanctions on Cuba for Castro's
jailing of dissidents:



One of the strongest and most powerful democratic institutions in the world
? the European Union ? has no qualms about making a public promise to the
Cuban dictatorship that it will reinstitute diplomatic apartheid. The EU's
embassies in Havana will now craft their guest lists in accordance with the
Cuban government's wishes. The shortsightedness of Socialist prime minister
Jos? Zapatero of Spain has prevailed. . . .

Today, the EU is dancing to Fidel Castro's tune. . . .

Where will it end? The release of Milosevic? Denying a visa to Russian
human-rights activist Sergey Kovalyov? An apology to Saddam Hussein? The
opening of peace talks with al Qaeda?

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Feb 11 14:06:46 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:06:46 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry as Architecture
Message-ID: <s20cae03.046@mail.highland.edu>

Over the past few months, Ben Basan, a Ph.D. student at U of Iowa, has
been answering my Poetic Architecture quizzes at his blog, Luminations:

http://luminations.blogspot.com/

And his answers are fantastic! I've been thinking of writing a series
of quizzes, actually, called Poetic Astronomy. Maybe I'll try those out
here, let's see...

Kent


From shkodrov at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 11 15:11:17 2005
From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:11:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Havel nice day
In-Reply-To: <BE31FA16.81D0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <20050211201118.39441.qmail@web54607.mail.yahoo.com>

 
"There are no exact guidelines. There are probably no guidelines at all. The only thing I can recommend at this stage is a sense of humor, an ability to see things in their ridiculous and absurd dimensions, to laugh at others and at ourselves, a sense of irony regarding everything that calls out for parody in this world. In other words, I can only recommend perspective and distance. Awareness of all the most dangerous kinds of vanity, both in others and in ourselves. A good mind. A modest certainty about the meaning of things. Gratitude for the gift of life and the courage to take responsibility for it. Vigilance of spirit." (Havel upon receiving the Open Society Prize awarded by the Central European University in 1999, trans. by Paul Wilson) 
 
--
It seems to me, Paul, that you are missing the main point -- Havel is in opposition AGAIN!  

 
P.S.
I'm curious to see the whole source you cited. It seems to me you are cutting out some context there...
Here are a few of mine:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/29/weu29.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/29/ixworld.html
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2710977.stm
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3668018.stm

 

Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
Recently in a discussion with a list member named Rosy, the subject of Havel
came up. I said at the time I hadn't heard from him lately. Here's a recent
quote on the subject of the EU lifting sanctions on Cuba for Castro's
jailing of dissidents:



One of the strongest and most powerful democratic institutions in the world
? the European Union ? has no qualms about making a public promise to the
Cuban dictatorship that it will reinstitute diplomatic apartheid. The EU's
embassies in Havana will now craft their guest lists in accordance with the
Cuban government's wishes. The shortsightedness of Socialist prime minister
Jos? Zapatero of Spain has prevailed. . . .

Today, the EU is dancing to Fidel Castro's tune. . . .

Where will it end? The release of Milosevic? Denying a visa to Russian
human-rights activist Sergey Kovalyov? An apology to Saddam Hussein? The
opening of peace talks with al Qaeda?

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au  Fri Feb 11 21:25:24 2005
From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:25:24 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] sodium light
In-Reply-To: <200502111700.j1BH04pY002885@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20050212022524.79841.qmail@web51406.mail.yahoo.com>


A-ha, that's what the sodium light's all about, thanks Michael. Regards, Robert.

 

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:36:43 -0500
From: Michael Snider 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] stings's song
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views"

Message-ID: <303a84274e216668b84c930fc17a40a4 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed


On Feb 8, 2005, at 8:32 PM, robert lane wrote:

> Jeff, I like most of this as a song, but the first stanza has [for me] 
> a couple of clangers.
>
> 1. seagulls don't play, they're too busy fighting each other for food; 
> rats with wings.
>
> 2. i prefer "salty light" rather than "sodium light". using a [i 
> think] Latin and scientific term sticks out in a song that mainly uses 
> an Anglo Saxon lexicon.

I share your general opinion (below) but "sodium lamp" isn't Latinized 
"salt lamp" -- it's one of three kinds of high-efficiency very bright 
lights for outdoor applications such as parking lots and street lamps. 
The other two are metal halide and mercury vapor.

Best,

Michael


> but apart from that it's pretty good [for a musician]
>
> Regards, Robert Lane.




Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings




---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
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From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Feb 11 21:45:59 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:45:59 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Havel nice day
In-Reply-To: <BE31FA16.81D0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <ECOWS01MsO0y1nP4QUN0002c651@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>

I find it hard to believe that this ridiculous hyperbole issues from Vaclav
Havel -- you sure we're talking about the same Havel? 

> Where will it end? The release of Milosevic? Denying a visa 
> to Russian human-rights activist Sergey Kovalyov? An apology 
> to Saddam Hussein? The opening of peace talks with al Qaeda?




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Feb 11 22:33:41 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:33:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Audio/Visual Poetry Online
Message-ID: <BE32D535.F6F3%grahamd@ripon.edu>

>From another list, but I don't recall it being posted here.  Someone queried
the Library of Congress about poetry audio and video available online, and
got the following response.  Thought many might find it very useful.

DG
--------------------


 
One of our librarians maintains a "Guide to Poetry & Literature Streaming
Video" which you can use to find streaming videos of poetry readings that
took place at the Library and elsewhere.  The URL for the guide is:
< http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/poetry/poetry-home.html >

While the Library doesn't make many sound files of poetry readings available
online, you can find several audio interviews with poets available through
the Library's Poetry & Literature Center at:
< http://www.loc.gov/poetry/poetpoem.html >

The Academy of American Poets allows you to listen to individual poems being
read by their authors at:
< http://www.poets.org/booth/booth.cfm >

PENNsound provides access to the audio of poetry readings at:
< http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/ >

Some other site which includes audio of poetry readings or poems being read
are:

HarperAudio
< http://town.hall.org/Archives/radio/IMS/HarperAudio/ >

Salon.com Poetry Archive:
< http://archive.salon.com/directory/topics/poetry_audio/ >

UC Berkeley Lectures and Events:
< http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/audiofiles.html >

World Poetry Audio Library:
< http://www.english.eku.edu/Pellegrino/worldpoetry/ >

Wired for Books:
< http://wiredforbooks.org/ >

Internet Poetry Archive:
< http://www.ibiblio.org/ipa/ >

For several other sites, see Laurable.com's list of poetry audio links at:
< http://www.laurable.com/sites.html >

We hope this information proves helpful.

Sincerely,

The Digital Reference Team
Library of Congress
pca

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu  Fri Feb 11 23:18:30 2005
From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:18:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] sodium light
In-Reply-To: <20050212022524.79841.qmail@web51406.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200502111700.j1BH04pY002885@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050211221226.0107cf58@cyrus.undsmhs.net>

At 01:25 PM 2/12/2005 +1100, robert lane wrote:

>A-ha, that's what the sodium light's all about, thanks Michael. Regards, 
>Robert.
>
>On Feb 8, 2005, at 8:32 PM, robert lane wrote:
>
>I share your general opinion (below) but "sodium lamp" isn't Latinized
>"salt lamp" -- it's one of three kinds of high-effi! ciency very bright
>lights for outdoor applications such as parking lots and street lamps.
>The other two are metal halide and mercury vapor.
>
>Best,
>
>Michael

A generation ago, if your plane took off from a large city at night, the 
wonderland of lights below you would be mostly white. Now in most cities 
the maze of lights below you is mostly golden or tawny or something between 
lemon and egg-yolk (depending on your aesthetic). That is what sodium lamps 
have wrought.

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu





From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 11 23:47:18 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:47:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Blaise Cendrars, "Newspaper"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEBNKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Newspaper

Christ
It's been more than a year now since I stopped thinking about You
Since I wrote my next-to-last poem "Easter"
My life has changed a lot since
But I'm still the same
I've even wanted to become a painter
Here are the pictures I've done and which hang on the walls tonight
For me they open strange views onto myself which make me think
    of You.

Christ
Life
That's what I've ransacked

My paintings hurt me
I'm too passionate
Everything is oranged up.

I spent a sad day thinking about my friends
And reading the paper
Christ
Life crucified in the wide-open paper I hold at arm's length
Wing-spread
Rockets
Turmoil
Cries.
You'd think an airplane is dropping.
It's me.

Passion 
Fire
Serials
Newspaper
It's useless not wanting to talk about yourself
You have to cry out sometimes

I'm the other one
Too sensitive

 		(August 1913)

trans. Ron Padgett

fr. *Nineteen Elastic Poems* (1919)
in *Blaise Cendrars: Complete Poems*
[Berkeley, Calif.: Univ. of California Press, 1992]


Hal     

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Sat Feb 12 00:51:24 2005
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:51:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] sodium light
Message-ID: <7e0fa37e1c8d.7e1c8d7e0fa3@nyu.edu>



Personally, I've found these postings on Sting scintillating! Precisely 
the reason I joined this forum, in fact. Yes, let's shine more and more 
light on the nothing new. Look forward to the Elton John posting!





-------------- next part --------------

A-ha, that's what the sodium light's all about, thanks Michael. Regards, Robert.

 

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:36:43 -0500
From: Michael Snider 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] stings's song
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views"

Message-ID: <303a84274e216668b84c930fc17a40a4 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed


On Feb 8, 2005, at 8:32 PM, robert lane wrote:

> Jeff, I like most of this as a song, but the first stanza has [for me] 
> a couple of clangers.
>
> 1. seagulls don't play, they're too busy fighting each other for food; 
> rats with wings.
>
> 2. i prefer "salty light" rather than "sodium light". using a [i 
> think] Latin and scientific term sticks out in a song that mainly uses 
> an Anglo Saxon lexicon.

I share your general opinion (below) but "sodium lamp" isn't Latinized 
"salt lamp" -- it's one of three kinds of high-efficiency very bright 
lights for outdoor applications such as parking lots and street lamps. 
The other two are metal halide and mercury vapor.

Best,

Michael


> but apart from that it's pretty good [for a musician]
>
> Regards, Robert Lane.




Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings




---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb 12 00:58:52 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:58:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sodium light
In-Reply-To: <7e0fa37e1c8d.7e1c8d7e0fa3@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <BE32F73C.F6FE%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 2/11/05 11:51 PM, Christopher Kelly at chris.kelly at nyu.edu wrote:



Personally, I've found these postings on Sting scintillating! Precisely
the reason I joined this forum, in fact. Yes, let's shine more and more
light on the nothing new. Look forward to the Elton John posting!


============================================

So start a thread, Christopher.  What's on *your* mind?  What's new to you?


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Sat Feb 12 01:30:27 2005
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:30:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sodium light
Message-ID: <80746080463b.80463b807460@nyu.edu>

Dear David, 

Thank you for your thoughtful email. It's not that I'm adverse 
to Sting or to rock lyrics in general. 

I happen to think, for instance, 
that there was moment when Bruce Springsteen eclipsed American fiction, 
poetry, etc.

Howandever, I'm not of the opinion that he warrants discussion on this 
forum. 

Further, Ricks does not convince me the merits of Dylan are worth 
discussing here. 

Please understand that I'm not being contrary. I love poetry. 

*greg delanty* is a wonderful and, to my mind, underappreciated poet. 
Has anybody read "The Blind Stitch?"

Thanks, David.
-------------- next part --------------
on 2/11/05 11:51 PM, Christopher Kelly at chris.kelly at nyu.edu wrote:



Personally, I've found these postings on Sting scintillating! Precisely
the reason I joined this forum, in fact. Yes, let's shine more and more
light on the nothing new. Look forward to the Elton John posting!


============================================

So start a thread, Christopher.  What's on *your* mind?  What's new to you?


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb 12 08:25:56 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:25:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sodium light
References: <80746080463b.80463b807460@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <008f01c51106$6293b350$82b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re: sodium light
Dear David, 

Thank you for your thoughtful email. It's not that I'm adverse to Sting or to rock lyrics in general. 

I happen to think, for instance, 
that there was moment when Bruce Springsteen eclipsed American fiction, poetry, etc.

Howandever, I'm not of the opinion that he warrants discussion on this forum. 

Further, Ricks does not convince me the merits of Dylan are worth discussing here. 

Please understand that I'm not being contrary. I love poetry. 

*greg delanty* is a wonderful and, to my mind, underappreciated poet.  Has anybody read "The Blind Stitch?"

Thanks, David.
***

I'm not much on pop lyrics as poetry BUT one thing you do here annoys me, Chris.  A lot of other people do it, too: Dictating what should or should not be discussed at a forum like this.  You don't do it obnoxiously.  Still, why not just stay out of discussions that don't interest you instead of saying they shouldn't be taking place?  (Yeah, now *I'm* dictating.)

Also, why not say why Sting's texts are inferior instead of saying they're not worth discussion?  I know I'm in a minority near to one in this, but I think it nearly as valuable to analyze poems one thinks bad as to analyze poems one thinks good.  I also think groups like New-Poetry are ridiculously over concerned with politeness--to each other, and to poetry.

--Bob G.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 12 10:03:25 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:03:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A: Sparrow and Tom Devaney playing pepper
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMECEKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Monday, February 07, 2005
Irish and Jewish: Tom Devaney talks with Sparrow

For the past few years I have interviewed the poet and writer Sparrow
everytime he's passed through Philadelphia. We're currently editing these
interviews for publication.

Here is an excerpt (mostly unedited) from May 12, 2002. At this point,
I am suggesting words for Sparrow to bounce off of: a person, place,
concept, idea--and he is responding to each:

TD: How about Robinson Crusoe?
S: Robin Williams. They?re the same. Robinson Crusoe is the eighteenth
century Robin Williams.

TD: OK, here?s a big one: work.
S: Play. Because my work is to play. I always have a job where I?m playing,
like I?m a substitute teacher so I represent the absence of authority. When I
enter the room, it means there?s no teacher, there?s only me. I?m like a
Shakespearean fool, I?m the person that exists to be harassed, to be funny,
they can put on their headphones and listen to Jay Z, I?m like a walking vacation
(Laughs) That?s my job. For that I get sixty dollars a day, which is not much.

TD: So, vacation.
S: Sober. Then I think when I go on vacation, I?m extremely sober. That?s
the way I am. I have this countervalent personality. When I go on vacation, I
spend the whole time meditating, reading, if I?m in the Bahamas. Then, when
I?m at work, I?m completely drunk (laughter), metaphorically.

TD: Next one is Peter Jennings.
S: Jews for Social inadequacy. I guess when I think of the media I think of the
Jews. Even though I?m a Jew I believe that the media is controlled by the Jews.
Even though it isn?t. I like the idea that the Jews control the media. I think it?s
an important American invention. It may be only in America that the Jews are
considered to control the media. In Europe they thought they killed children and
turned them into matzo, they were moneylenders, they were Christ murderers,
but in America there?s this interesting pairing of Jews and movies that we couldn?t
have movies without the Jews. It?s really important. It?s almost as important as jazz.
Jazz is really the most important thing. The Jews have never been able to contribute
to America what jazz has.

TD: Why? The new recent Jewish anthology of American Literature has SJ Perelman,
Groucho Marx.
S: Plus every novelist after 1960 is a Jew.

TD: (With a board smile).
S: Philip Roth, Bernard Malamud I?m thinking of, Norman Mailer.

TD: Max Apple. At one point I was reading all Jewish authors for a while, like the last
ten books I read when I was reading novels, so I wanted to read an Irish-Catholic, so
someone said--read Mary Gordon.
S: Yes, I read her.

TD: So I read Mary Gordon. And then it turns out her father is Jewish, and he converted
to marry his wife. So that was the first book I read, which was fine.
S: That is the biggest embarrassment to the Irish in American literary history. When I
found that out I wept.

TD: An Irish-Catholic girl from Queens.
S: And she?s like the most modern Irish-catholic writer in the modern American world.
She?s Irish to the max!

TD: Yeah, her book ?The Other Side? is great. All of her books are good.
S: Yeah she?s an interesting writer. Although now that you know that she?s Jewish, she
seems a little bit like a Jew looking at the Irish from within.

TD: Well, yeah, it probably makes her more interesting actually, but she was raised
Catholic. (Doorbell) I have a couple more questions.

--Tom Devaney

fr. http://phillysound.blogspot.com/


Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb 12 11:18:00 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:18:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song lyrics as poetry
In-Reply-To: <80746080463b.80463b807460@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <BE338858.F71B%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Whether song lyrics "work" on the page or not, and if so which ones, what
the relevant distinctions might be between song lyrics and lyric poetry,
etc.--these are all topics that the list has covered from time to time.
Always time for another go-round, I suppose.  In any case, what warrants
discussion on this forum is, by definition, whatever people are interested
in posting and responding to.  Prescription never works.  So post away,
y'all.

Personally, I find it nearly impossible to get the music out of my head
enough to even *look* at song lyrics on a page.   I do love the lyrics of
many many current songwriters, in several genres, and think there are many
points of crossover between poetry and song.   I'm also sure that
songwriters have "influenced" my own writing at least as much as page poets,
even if this fact isn't very apparent to anyone else.

But if I were to post names or lyrics of some of my favorite songwriters
(Sting probably not on my current list--my top ten today would include folks
like John Prine and Guy Clark) I suspect it wouldn't mean much beyond "I
really like their songs," i.e. the total package, lyrics and music.

Well, here's a Greg Delanty poem for your reading pleasure.


THE BINDI MIRROR


    The small circle which a married woman places on her forehead is known
as a bindi ('zero'). These are usually bought ready-made from the market and
have become almost a fashion accessory, with every imaginable shape and
colour to match the occasion. You'll also come across a wide variety of used
bindis stuck to the mirrors in hotel bathrooms!

               *India, Lonely Planet Travel Survival Kit*


Here we are, ringed in the circular mirror, you in front,
     head bowed, brushing rat's nests and static
from hair that's the long sable-silk of Indian women.
     We're oblivious of each other in that married way
that some call oneness, others call blindness. Your O
     snaps us out of our morning motions
as you spot the various bindis round our mirror.
     The index finger of your wedding-band hand traces
from one to another, connecting confetti zeros
     that are red as the razor-nick on my Adam's apple.
Others are inlaid with pearls as if with love itself.
     Who wore that God's teardrop, that bloody arrowhead,
or those joyful signposts, gay-colored as a Hindu temple?
     O women of such third eyes, did any of you grow
weary of the SOLD stickers on your brows, the zeros
     of your vows? While your men slept did you vanish
into the immense Ravana dark of the Indian night?
     Could you have slipped them off as wedding rings are
in hotels on our side of the faithless globe?
     Below our moving reflection are rows
of crimson bindis like tiers of shimmering votive flames.

Greg Delanty


=================================================
on 2/12/05 12:30 AM, Christopher Kelly at chris.kelly at nyu.edu wrote:

Dear David, 

Thank you for your thoughtful email. It's not that I'm adverse
to Sting or to rock lyrics in general.

I happen to think, for instance,
that there was moment when Bruce Springsteen eclipsed American fiction,
poetry, etc.

Howandever, I'm not of the opinion that he warrants discussion on this
forum. 

Further, Ricks does not convince me the merits of Dylan are worth
discussing here. 

Please understand that I'm not being contrary. I love poetry.

*greg delanty* is a wonderful and, to my mind, underappreciated poet.
Has anybody read "The Blind Stitch?"

Thanks, David.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb 12 11:20:59 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:20:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song lyrics as poetry
Message-ID: <1df.352f7443.2f3f86eb@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/12/2005 10:16:23 AM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> But if I were to post names or lyrics of some of my favorite songwriters
> (Sting probably not on my current list--my top ten today would include folks
> like John Prine and Guy Clark) I suspect it wouldn't mean much beyond "I
> really like their songs," i.e. the total package, lyrics and music.
I used to use John Prine's "The Great Compromise" as an example of allegory.  
I love his lyrics.

I knew a girl who was almost a lady
She had a way with all the men in her life
Every inch of her blossomed in beauty
And she was born on the fourth of july
Well she lived in an aluminum house trailer
And she worked in a juke box saloon
And she spent all the money I give her
Just to see the old man in the moon

Chorus:
I used to sleep at the foot of old glory
And awake in the dawn?s early light
But much to my surprise
When I opened my eyes
I was a victim of the great compromise

Well we?d go out on saturday evenings
To the drive-in on route 41
And it was there that I first suspected
That she was doin? what she?d already done
She said johnny won?t you get me some popcorn
And she knew I had to walk pretty far
And as soon as I passed through the moonlight
She hopped into a foreign sports car

(repeat chorus)

Well you know I could have beat up that fellow
But it was her that had hopped into his car
Many times I?d fought to protect her
But this time she was goin? too far
Now some folks they call me a coward
?cause I left her at the drive-in that night
But I?d druther have names thrown at me
Than to fight for a thing that ain?t right

(repeat chorus)

Now she writes all the fellows love letters
Saying greetings, come and see me real soon
And they go and line up in the barroom
And spend the night in that sick woman?s room
But sometimes I get awful lonesome
And I wish she was my girl instead
But she won?t let me live with her
And she makes me live in my head

(repeat chorus)
 
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Sat Feb 12 11:43:12 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:43:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song lyric writers as page poets
Message-ID: <148.3e2d9fa2.2f3f8c20@aol.com>

Or how about poems as song lyrics? Do they "work?" For example:

Wyn Cooper's "Fun" into Sheryl Crow's "All I Wanna Do"
E.A. Robinson's "Richard Cory" into Simon & Garfun's "Richard Cory"
Yeat's "The Stolen Child" into Loreena McKennit's "The Stolen Child"
Yeat's "The Two trees" into  Loreena McKennitt's "C? h? mise le unlaight? / 
The two trees"

and I'm sure others will think of others...

Or how about songwriters who make the leap to page poetry. Do they "work?"
Most recent examples that come to mind:

Billy Corgin (Smashing Pumpkins): BLINKING WITH FISTS
Jeff Tweedy (Wilco): ADULT HEAD
Jewel: A NIGHT WITHOUT ARMOR
Tupac Shakur: THE ROSE THAT GREW FROM CONCRETE


Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN

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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sat Feb 12 12:32:57 2005
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:32:57 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Omnism
In-Reply-To: <200502121700.j1CH03pW008671@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050212092311.00c551c0@incoming.verizon.net>

At 12:00 PM 2/12/2005 -0500, Chris Stroffolino wrote:

>Bob G's distinction between "subject-bound" and "linguistic free play"

Hey Chris...can we do both? (he asks with baiting breath).

(And how come, Bob (as Marcus might say), how come the word "bound"
attaches to one party's turf while "free" plus "play" gets to 
glory-Red-State the other?
Just the workings of an enquiring mind, I guess, no po'-politics involved...an
Orange State kinda thing?).

Barry the Aunty-Bob

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb 12 13:31:13 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:31:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Omnism
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050212092311.00c551c0@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <014c01c51131$08c9a6b0$82b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Bob G's distinction between "subject-bound" and "linguistic free play" 


Hey Chris...can we do both? (he asks with baiting breath).

(And how come, Bob (as Marcus might say), how come the word "bound" attaches to one party's turf while "free" plus "play" gets to glory-Red-State the other?  Just the workings of an enquiring mind, I guess, no po'-politics involved...an Orange State kinda thing?).

Barry the Aunty-Bob

****

Okay, Barry, make it subject-celebrating and linguistic-experimentation-bound.  Of course, it can be both.  I missed Chris's post so don't know what he said about my distinction, but when I made it, I was simply observing that many poets are concerned most in their poems with the subject-matter, while others are most concerned with what they can do with words.  The first kind are kept from doing too much with their words by their need properly to describe some personal experience whereas the latter can do much more with their words because their only prison is the need to do something interesting with them.

I do find that Philistines almost always rate poems on the basis of their subject matter, and on how much they agree with its point of view.

--Bob G.

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb 12 13:53:44 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:53:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & song
Message-ID: <BE33ACD8.F72C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Speaking of poetry & song, it's Thomas Campion's birthday.



Though you are yoong and I am olde,
Though your vaines hot, and my bloud colde,
Though youth is moist, and age is drie,
Yet embers liue, when flames doe die.

The tender graft is easely broke,
But who shall shake the sturdie Oke?
You are more fresh and faire then I,
Yet stubs doe liue when flowers doe die.

Thou that thy youth doest vainely boast,
Know buds are soonest nipt with frost,
Thinke that thy fortune still doth crie,
Thou foole, to-morrow thou must die.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb 12 14:00:24 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:00:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song lyric writers as page poets
In-Reply-To: <148.3e2d9fa2.2f3f8c20@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BE33AE68.F72E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 2/12/05 10:43 AM, Thom424 at aol.com at Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

Or how about songwriters who make the leap to page poetry. Do they "work?"
Most recent examples that come to mind:

Billy Corgin (Smashing Pumpkins): BLINKING WITH FISTS
Jeff Tweedy (Wilco): ADULT HEAD
Jewel: A NIGHT WITHOUT ARMOR
Tupac Shakur: THE ROSE THAT GREW FROM CONCRETE


Thom Tammaro
-------------------

Then there's Don Paterson, who apparently has a parallel career as musician.
I haven't heard any of his music, myself.

And does anyone know the music of David Berman?  I've been enjoying his
poetry collection *Actual Air* lately, the blurb for which informs me that
he fronts a band called The Silver Jews, with four albums out on Drag City
Records.

Here's a poem:

Snow


Walking through a field with my little brother Seth

I pointed to a place where kids had made angels in the snow.
For some reason, I told him that a troop of angels
had been shot and dissolved when they hit the ground.

He asked who had shot them and I said a farmer.


Then we were on the roof of the lake.
The ice looked like a photograph of water.

Why he asked. Why did he shoot them.

I didn't know where I was going with this.

They were on his property, I said.


When it's snowing, the outdoors seem like a room.

Today I traded hellos with my neighbor.
Our voices hung close in the new acoustics.
A room with the walls blasted to shreds and falling.

We returned to our shoveling, working side by side in silence.


But why were they on his property, he asked.


--David Berman.  Actual Air.  Open City Books, 1999.





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb 12 14:14:42 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:14:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song lyric writers as page poets
Message-ID: <c.3e8db35a.2f3fafa2@cs.com>

Speaking of which, I just got the soundtrack to Big River, the 1985 
Tony-award winning musical based on Huckleberry Finn.  I'd heard of this musical but 
never realized that the words and music were by none other than the late Roger 
Miller.  
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 12 14:13:19 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:13:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  David Berman, "A Letter . . ."
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEECMKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


A Letter from Isaac Asimov to His Wife Janet, Written on His Deathbed

One night, studying an egg tray in my kitchen, that first novel fell
together in my mind: apes blowing blood into the air, the robot
nymphs dipping their slender metal legs into an ammonia brook.

I began those flights from earth in plywood space capsules, fleeing
to a place Satan could not find, that was my hope. Getting away
from the chain letters, fever, rats, and unemployment, away from
the dark uncles that strayed over the globe, cutting brake lines and
loosening screws.

And as a Jew I asked what good are hidden things, and as a Jew I
admonished myself for asking. I knew that the best things were
hidden, and all of this was said in a private voice, a cousin to the
one I used to speak to pets.

I am writing this under the illumination of an old American stereo.
For once I don't want to know the weather forecast. In fact, I can't
bear to hear it, the jealousy would kill me before midnight.
Perhaps they will make jokes at Doubleday tomorrow. I can
imagine an intern asking, "What were his last ten thousand
words . . ."

I want to know too. From my sickbed I've seen cellophane rams
shimmering in the yard and cardinals that look like quarts of blood
balanced in the branches. The doctor calls them apparitions.
Perhaps my last words will be random.

I am so drowsy, here listening to the wild dressage of a housefuly,
thinking about the loyal robots in my paperbacks. Thinking about
the little chalet I would have built for you on Neptune.

A Neptune discernible from Vermont.

--David Berman

in *Open City* #7, Winter 1999



Hal     

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb 12 14:33:43 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:33:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Berman
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEECMKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BE33B637.F735%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Well, of course David Berman's band The Silver Jews has a web site.

Here are the lyrics to one of his songs.

I Remember Me 


He almost walked into a wall
Oh man she was a sight to see
At the party down the hall
He said "you are the highest apple in the tree"
Out the window in the harbour he saw a little ship
The moon was worn just slightly on the right
They slowdanced so the needle wouldn't skip
And he held her till the room was filled with light

I remember you and I remember me
The sunshine walking inside you/and the man you could see in me.
So I remember me and I remember you
So many beautiful days in a row now/and the nights were perfect too

Hand in hand down a waterslide in Chattanooga
They did not hide from love you see
A winter's plane flight to Aruba
Where he threw a boombox into the sea.
One day they were cutting flowers for something to do
On the bank of the road 'neath the cottonwoods
He turned to her to ask if she'd marry him
When a runnaway truck hit him where he stood.

So I remember you and I remember you
And I remember you do-do-do-do-do
And I remember me and I remember me
A blackhalk nailed to the sky/and the tape hiss from the trees.

Everybody said she needed to move on
That he was all but lost so deep was his coma.
When he finally came to, the girl he loved was long gone.
She'd married a banker and moved to Oklahoma.
He bought a little land with the money from the settlement
And he even bought the truck that had hit him that day
He touched the part where the metal was bent.
And if you were there you would hear him say.

I remember her and I remember him
I remember them and I remember then..
I'm just rememberin' I'm just rememberin'

? D.C.Berman, Civil Jar Music



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 12 14:56:01 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:56:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Berman, Krukowski, etc
Message-ID: <200502121934.j1CJYPOD263946@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

David--

Then there's Damon Krukowski (of Galaxie 500 and Damon and Naomi)
who just came out with a pretty decent book of prose poems
(The Memory Theatre Burned).

I actually played on some of Berman's records (keyboards and trumpet)
before I decided to front my own band. His book is worth checking out
(though that particular poem below is not one of my favorites);
be curious to see what others think of his poetry and lyrics.
He seems to understand the division between the two in a way
the others mentioned below fall short of.

C

----------
From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song lyric writers as page poets
Date: Sat, Feb 12, 2005, 11:00 AM


on 2/12/05 10:43 AM, Thom424 at aol.com at Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

Or how about songwriters who make the leap to page poetry. Do they "work?"
Most recent examples that come to mind:

Billy Corgin (Smashing Pumpkins): BLINKING WITH FISTS
Jeff Tweedy (Wilco): ADULT HEAD
Jewel: A NIGHT WITHOUT ARMOR
Tupac Shakur: THE ROSE THAT GREW FROM CONCRETE


Thom Tammaro
-------------------

Then there's Don Paterson, who apparently has a parallel career as musician.
I haven't heard any of his music, myself.

And does anyone know the music of David Berman?  I've been enjoying his
poetry collection *Actual Air* lately, the blurb for which informs me that
he fronts a band called The Silver Jews, with four albums out on Drag City
Records.

Here's a poem:

Snow


Walking through a field with my little brother Seth

I pointed to a place where kids had made angels in the snow.
For some reason, I told him that a troop of angels
had been shot and dissolved when they hit the ground.

He asked who had shot them and I said a farmer.


Then we were on the roof of the lake.
The ice looked like a photograph of water.

Why he asked. Why did he shoot them.

I didn't know where I was going with this.

They were on his property, I said.


When it's snowing, the outdoors seem like a room.

Today I traded hellos with my neighbor.
Our voices hung close in the new acoustics.
A room with the walls blasted to shreds and falling.

We returned to our shoveling, working side by side in silence.


But why were they on his property, he asked.


--David Berman.  Actual Air.  Open City Books, 1999.





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 12 14:56:33 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:56:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poet in Every Paper.
Message-ID: <1ab.320f8f68.2f3fb971@aol.com>


http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-oe-beban6feb06,0,4635023.story?coll=la-sunday-commentary

I'm a fifth-generation Californian, and I'm tossing my hat into the ring 
(along with the state's million or so other poets) to become California's second 
poet laureate, a no-pay position appointed by the governor and confirmed by the 
state Senate. (No pay is fine with me, and I don't wear a hat, so I haven't 
ventured anything yet.) My slogan?: A Poet in Every Paper.

By Richard Beban, Playa del Rey poet Richard Beban's first book, "What the 
Heart Weighs," was published in September by Los Angeles' Red Hen Press. He has 
worked as a newspaper and magazine journalist for 40 years.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 12 15:05:54 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:05:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song lyric writers as page poets
Message-ID: <15b.4a9bcabb.2f3fbba2@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/12/2005 11:43:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Thom424 at aol.com writes:

> Yeat's "The Stolen Child" into Loreena McKennit's "The Stolen Child"

Waterboys did a nice version of the same poem. Of course some poems
are about 2/3rds music already, so that helps. Valery wasn't too keen on
the practice of setting poems to music; he said "it was like looking at a
painting through stained glass." 
Finnegan
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From MillB at aol.com  Sat Feb 12 15:07:15 2005
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:07:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poet in Every Paper.
Message-ID: <ff.d017821.2f3fbbf3@aol.com>

Better quit your day job because the post DOES pay: $5,000 for two years  (or 
at least that is what the latest CAC news  reveals)
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 12 15:42:44 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:42:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Got a short one?
Message-ID: <30.6c19a827.2f3fc444@aol.com>

The Binnacle Ultra-Short Competition     

The Binnacle 
19 Kimball Hall
University of Maine at Machias
9 O'Brien Avenue
Machias, ME 04654 

or Email Your Submission ummbinnacle

Ultra-Short Competition

2003-04 Competition

The Binnacle is proud to announce the winners of its first Ultra-Short 
Competition. 
Please Click Here For The Winners

2004-05 Competition
The Binnacle will sponsor its second international Ultra-Short competition in 
the 2004-2005 academic year. We are looking for poetry of sixteen lines or 
less and prose works of 150 words or less. 

This year we are also including a separate category for digital imagery. 
Imagery can include photography (color or b&w), line drawing, or other original 
digital imagery. As the contest will be printed in a small format, images that 
present well in a small space are encouraged. Digital images should be 
submitted via postal mail on a CD or posted on a web site for our viewing. Please do 
not send these in attachments. Please include SASE if you would like the media 
returned. All submissions should be made via email to ummbinnacle at maine.edu. 

Three cash prizes will be awarded in the amounts of $150, $100, and $50*. At 
least one of the prizes will go to a UMM student. 

Please submit no more than two works total, prose and/or poetry. 

There is no submission fee. Deadline for submission will be February 15, 
2005. (Some notices may say February 1, but February 15 will be the deadline.) 
Notifications will be made by May 15, 2005. Publication date will be May, 2005, 
but printing may not be completed until October, 2005. Awards will be made at 
the time of publication. *In the event of a tie, we will re-distribute the 
prize money as deemed appropriate. $300 represents the minimal amount of prize 
money to be awarded. 

www.umm.maine.edu/binnacle
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 12 15:52:02 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:52:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers, Artists & their Day Jobs
Message-ID: <1d8.36cde2a5.2f3fc672@aol.com>

Cubicles, Poetry, Romance
http://www.wnyc.org/studio360/show022104.html
Studio360 

Interview with Deborah Garrison, starts about 5:30 into show.


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From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Sun Feb 13 02:03:17 2005
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:03:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: sodium light
Message-ID: <8ce9258ca5d4.8ca5d48ce925@nyu.edu>

Bob, 

You are dead right. And I stand corrected. 

Thank you. 


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Re: sodium light
Dear David, 

Thank you for your thoughtful email. It's not that I'm adverse to Sting or to rock lyrics in general. 

I happen to think, for instance, 
that there was moment when Bruce Springsteen eclipsed American fiction, poetry, etc.

Howandever, I'm not of the opinion that he warrants discussion on this forum. 

Further, Ricks does not convince me the merits of Dylan are worth discussing here. 

Please understand that I'm not being contrary. I love poetry. 

*greg delanty* is a wonderful and, to my mind, underappreciated poet.  Has anybody read "The Blind Stitch?"

Thanks, David.
***

I'm not much on pop lyrics as poetry BUT one thing you do here annoys me, Chris.  A lot of other people do it, too: Dictating what should or should not be discussed at a forum like this.  You don't do it obnoxiously.  Still, why not just stay out of discussions that don't interest you instead of saying they shouldn't be taking place?  (Yeah, now *I'm* dictating.)

Also, why not say why Sting's texts are inferior instead of saying they're not worth discussion?  I know I'm in a minority near to one in this, but I think it nearly as valuable to analyze poems one thinks bad as to analyze poems one thinks good.  I also think groups like New-Poetry are ridiculously over concerned with politeness--to each other, and to poetry.

--Bob G.
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_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb 13 08:11:49 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:11:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] from PoemHunter
Message-ID: <010e01c511cd$93d98080$2ea93452@yourpk9x5fuc06>


A Divine Image 

Cruelty has a human heart, 
And Jealousy a human face; 
Terror the human form divine, 
And Secresy the human dress. 

The human dress is forged iron, 
The human form a fiery forge, 
The human face a furnace sealed, 
The human heart its hungry gorge. 

William Blake 



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 13 11:37:13 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:37:13 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
Message-ID: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu>

You may well recognize the author of the following poem, for it is a Big
Name.  But I'm wondering whether, without the name attached, it is easy or
difficult to tell.

If anyone feels like playing. . . .


Home for the Holidays

Does anyone give a shit? Not
I, said the little brown mouse.
And so to bed, said Mother,
but no one was listening.
Praise the Lord, said the radio,
the radio said Praise the Lord
again, and the television
turned its back on the room.

Turnips for wisdom, eggplant
for beauty, parsnips for ease,
cabbage for size, a raw egg
for the hair, a slice of ham
to seize the hips, for the nose
foxglove and salt, for grace
ice-cold water poured from
way high up to way down low.

Everyone sits at the big table
in the dark. The empty plates
moon, the silverware stars,
the napkins scrub their hands.
I'm home, says the front door.
The windows are deep in thought,
the roof has taken off its hat.
Nothing to do, chants the toilet.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Feb 13 11:47:22 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:47:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
Message-ID: <1f0.358ba7a7.2f40de9a@cs.com>

I guessed, then googled.  Was right.
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sun Feb 13 12:17:35 2005
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:17:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Hope for the Resolution of Ancient Enmities
In-Reply-To: <200502131700.j1DH05pW013970@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050213091224.00c48018@incoming.verizon.net>

At 12:00 PM 2/13/2005 -0500, Bob G. wrote:
>Okay, Barry, make it subject-celebrating and 
>linguistic-experimentation-bound.

BREAKTHROUGH!!!!

B.

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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Sun Feb 13 12:28:07 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:28:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
In-Reply-To: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050213112331.031d4e78@mail.ilstu.edu>

Poet: White male
Poet reads: Charles Simic, Russell Edson, Robert Bly
Date of Composition: 1965-1980
Poet's inclinations: Narrative, Surrealism, Lugubriousness (the below being 
forced humor)




>Home for the Holidays
>
>Does anyone give a shit? Not
>I, said the little brown mouse.
>And so to bed, said Mother,
>but no one was listening.
>Praise the Lord, said the radio,
>the radio said Praise the Lord
>again, and the television
>turned its back on the room.
>
>Turnips for wisdom, eggplant
>for beauty, parsnips for ease,
>cabbage for size, a raw egg
>for the hair, a slice of ham
>to seize the hips, for the nose
>foxglove and salt, for grace
>ice-cold water poured from
>way high up to way down low.
>
>Everyone sits at the big table
>in the dark. The empty plates
>moon, the silverware stars,
>the napkins scrub their hands.
>I'm home, says the front door.
>The windows are deep in thought,
>the roof has taken off its hat.
>Nothing to do, chants the toilet.



From Faustina1 at aol.com  Sun Feb 13 12:32:56 2005
From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:32:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
Message-ID: <66BB0A42.677A1404.023799CC@aol.com>

Ho, I guessed Simic or Dugan, googled, was wrong.  Janet McCann


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 13 12:36:59 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:36:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050213112331.031d4e78@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <BE34EC5B.F77C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 2/13/05 11:28 AM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:

> Poet: White male

YES

> Poet reads: Charles Simic, Russell Edson, Robert Bly

WELL SURE, DOESN'T EVERYONE?


> Date of Composition: 1965-1980

NOT QUITE.  IN FACT, OFF BY A LONG SHOT.  I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN, THOUGH.


> Poet's inclinations: Narrative, Surrealism, Lugubriousness (the below being
> forced humor)

DON'T ENTIRELY KNOW ABOUT THE LAST TRAIT, BUT SURE, I'LL GRANT YOU THESE.


SCORE:  94.03%


> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Home for the Holidays
>> 
>> Does anyone give a shit? Not
>> I, said the little brown mouse.
>> And so to bed, said Mother,
>> but no one was listening.
>> Praise the Lord, said the radio,
>> the radio said Praise the Lord
>> again, and the television
>> turned its back on the room.
>> 
>> Turnips for wisdom, eggplant
>> for beauty, parsnips for ease,
>> cabbage for size, a raw egg
>> for the hair, a slice of ham
>> to seize the hips, for the nose
>> foxglove and salt, for grace
>> ice-cold water poured from
>> way high up to way down low.
>> 
>> Everyone sits at the big table
>> in the dark. The empty plates
>> moon, the silverware stars,
>> the napkins scrub their hands.
>> I'm home, says the front door.
>> The windows are deep in thought,
>> the roof has taken off its hat.
>> Nothing to do, chants the toilet.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sun Feb 13 12:36:08 2005
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:36:08 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Guessing Game
In-Reply-To: <200502131700.j1DH05pW013970@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050213093128.00c4bc48@incoming.verizon.net>

At 12:00 PM 2/13/2005 -0500, David G. wrote:

>You may well recognize the author of the following poem

So obviously James Tate it must be someone else...
a line-bound Edson-clone?

gladly would I play,

Barry
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Sun Feb 13 12:48:00 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:48:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
In-Reply-To: <BE34EC5B.F77C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050213112331.031d4e78@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<BE34EC5B.F77C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050213114239.0316e678@mail.ilstu.edu>

Ok, I googled it. Wasn't too far off. You're right though, it couldn't have 
been written in the 70s because "a stone" wasn't mentioned in the piece.



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 13 12:56:36 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:56:36 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Mystery poet
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050213114239.0316e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <BE34F0F4.F784%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 2/13/05 11:48 AM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:

> Ok, I googled it. Wasn't too far off. You're right though, it couldn't have
> been written in the 70s because "a stone" wasn't mentioned in the piece.
> 

One of the things that struck me about the piece was that it did seem like
our Mystery Author might have been reading some of the folks already
mentioned, and yes, it might as well have been written a quarter century
ago.  Still, there are some characteristic touches, I'd say; it's not simply
a Simic or Tate pastiche.

Feel free to Google, anyone who *must* know now.  I'll reveal the actual
author to the patient or Google-impaired later tonight; in the meantime,
others may feel free to keep guessing.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb 13 13:00:56 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:00:56 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Mystery poet
References: <BE34F0F4.F784%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01a701c511f5$f7a03aa0$2ea93452@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Faustina already answered:
Janet McCann

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 6:56 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Mystery poet


> on 2/13/05 11:48 AM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:
>
> > Ok, I googled it. Wasn't too far off. You're right though, it couldn't
have
> > been written in the 70s because "a stone" wasn't mentioned in the piece.
> >
>
> One of the things that struck me about the piece was that it did seem like
> our Mystery Author might have been reading some of the folks already
> mentioned, and yes, it might as well have been written a quarter century
> ago.  Still, there are some characteristic touches, I'd say; it's not
simply
> a Simic or Tate pastiche.
>
> Feel free to Google, anyone who *must* know now.  I'll reveal the actual
> author to the patient or Google-impaired later tonight; in the meantime,
> others may feel free to keep guessing.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Feb 13 13:05:15 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:05:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Mystery poet
In-Reply-To: <BE34F0F4.F784%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEDOKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


{    Feel free to Google, anyone who *must* know now.  I'll reveal the actual
{    author to the patient or Google-impaired later tonight; in the meantime,
{    others may feel free to keep guessing.

Oh, can't we just chalk it up to Anon.? I mean,
what has he/she done lately? It's time for
Anon. to get cracking.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb 13 13:14:54 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:14:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance Poetry circa 1958
Message-ID: <148.3e3ce5d7.2f40f31e@aol.com>

This is really good...Rexroth is quite impressive
and I expected Ferlinghetti to know what to do with a mic 
in his hand...

http://www.fantasyjazz.com/catalog/ferlinghetti_l_cat.html#7717

KENNETH REXROTH/LAWRENCE FERLINGHETTI 
Poetry Readings in the Cellar 
Fantasy FCD-7717-2 ~ $14.98  
"During the spring of 1957 a series of fascinating experiments took place in 
San Francisco. The scene was the Cellar, a downstairs nightclub that used to 
be a Chinese restaurant. . . . The experiment was an attempt to meld the twin 
forms of modern expression--jazz and poetry. The participants were two San 
Francisco poets-- Kenneth Rexroth, widely known for some years as a translator, 
poet, and commentator on the social scene, and Lawrence Ferlinghetti, a modern 
poet of considerable stature who operates a publishing house and a 
bookstore--and a group of jazz musicians. . . . 
     "The poets read their poetry while the jazz band improvised. The results 
were startling and exciting. The Cellar seats a mere handful of people but 
can accommodate 150 including standees, if necessary. During each of the 
half-dozen evenings devoted to the jazz and poetry experiments, the club was packed. 
San Franciscans of every stratum of society came to hear what was obviously a 
new and intriguing artistic excursion." 
--from the notes by Ralph J. Gleason

Kenneth Rexroth: Thou Shalt Not Kill (In memory of Dylan Thomas), Lawrence 
Ferlinghetti: Autobiography, The Statue of St. Francis, Junkman's Obbligato

with Bruce Lippincott, Dickie Mills, Bill Weisjahns, Jerry Goode, Bob Lewis, 
Sonny Wayne

Recorded at the Cellar, San Francisco; 1958.
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From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Feb 13 13:17:36 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:17:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A: Will Alexander whiffs on a wild pitch
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEENGJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEENGJPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1cb19cafcf620709f938b7f850274276@mac.com>


On Feb 9, 2005, at 11:26 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:

> Marcella Durand: Have you heard this theory that the chemical
> involved in the Big Bang is the same as when people fall in love?
>

A truly wild pitch, since essentially the only elements created in the 
Big bang were hydrogen and helium. Not much chemistry there, even if 
the temperatures had been lopw enough to allow any chemical reactions 
to occur.

Mike S.



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Feb 13 13:28:05 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:28:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
In-Reply-To: <BE34EC5B.F77C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BE34EC5B.F77C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <6dbb4ec0367d3337483f33eb8a2c4200@mac.com>


On Feb 13, 2005, at 12:36 PM, David Graham wrote:

>
>> Poet: White male
>
> YES

Shoudn't get too many points for that. Given English-language and no 
earlier than 20th century, the odds are pretty close to even.



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb 13 14:03:14 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:03:14 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
Message-ID: <6.3eb25456.2f40fe72@aol.com>

I put in for Mark Strand, since some of my other guesses
were already taken.
Finnegan

> >
> >>Home for the Holidays
> >>
> >>Does anyone give a shit? Not
> >>I, said the little brown mouse.
> >>And so to bed, said Mother,
> >>but no one was listening.
> >>Praise the Lord, said the radio,
> >>the radio said Praise the Lord
> >>again, and the television
> >>turned its back on the room.
> >>
> >>Turnips for wisdom, eggplant
> >>for beauty, parsnips for ease,
> >>cabbage for size, a raw egg
> >>for the hair, a slice of ham
> >>to seize the hips, for the nose
> >>foxglove and salt, for grace
> >>ice-cold water poured from
> >>way high up to way down low.
> >>
> >>Everyone sits at the big table
> >>in the dark. The empty plates
> >>moon, the silverware stars,
> >>the napkins scrub their hands.
> >>I'm home, says the front door.
> >>The windows are deep in thought,
> >>the roof has taken off its hat.
> >>Nothing to do, chants the toilet.

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb 13 14:07:51 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:07:51 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
Message-ID: <1df.353fb2d4.2f40ff87@aol.com>


> I put in for Mark Strand, since some of my other guesses
> were already taken.
> 

You got me. I see I'm wrong.
Finnegan
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 13 14:17:28 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:17:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Mystery poet
In-Reply-To: <1df.353fb2d4.2f40ff87@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BE3503E8.F794%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 2/13/05 1:07 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:


I put in for Mark Strand, since some of my other guesses
were already taken.


You got me. I see I'm wrong.
Finnegan 
============

Wow.  If anyone would have got it, I would have thought it'd be you, Jim.
One of your favorite poets, no?

I'm not sure if this game proves anything (probably not) but it's
interesting that none of the assembled experts have guessed the correct poet
so far.  That does suggest to me that it's a (somewhat) uncharacteristic
piece.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb 13 14:14:59 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:14:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Mystery poet
References: <BE34F0F4.F784%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <011e01c51200$6e587cc0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Since I don't care how many know how ignorant I am, I hereby admit that I 
have no idea who wrote the Mystery Poem.  Seems to me like something anyone 
of the mainstream names could have dashed off.  I got a smile out of it, 
though.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb 13 14:19:22 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:19:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Mystery poet
References: <BE34F0F4.F784%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<011e01c51200$6e587cc0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <014501c51200$eca937e0$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

To make a guess, anyway, I say John Ashbery.  But does he ever use "shit?" 
For some reason, I don't associate him with that kind of language.  (And, 
no, I don't hear anything particularly Ashberian in the Mystery Poem, just 
guessing.)

--Bob G.




From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 13 14:47:46 2005
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:47:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
In-Reply-To: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <20050213194746.94470.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com>

I guessed, Googled, and was right.  Yay me!

My first guess was Weldon Kees, but I'm not sure why.

Jeff Newberry


--- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> You may well recognize the author of the following
> poem, for it is a Big
> Name.  But I'm wondering whether, without the name
> attached, it is easy or
> difficult to tell.
> 
> If anyone feels like playing. . . .
> 
> 
> Home for the Holidays
> 
> Does anyone give a shit? Not
> I, said the little brown mouse.
> And so to bed, said Mother,
> but no one was listening.
> Praise the Lord, said the radio,
> the radio said Praise the Lord
> again, and the television
> turned its back on the room.
> 
> Turnips for wisdom, eggplant
> for beauty, parsnips for ease,
> cabbage for size, a raw egg
> for the hair, a slice of ham
> to seize the hips, for the nose
> foxglove and salt, for grace
> ice-cold water poured from
> way high up to way down low.
> 
> Everyone sits at the big table
> in the dark. The empty plates
> moon, the silverware stars,
> the napkins scrub their hands.
> I'm home, says the front door.
> The windows are deep in thought,
> the roof has taken off its hat.
> Nothing to do, chants the toilet.
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com 


From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Feb 13 15:30:10 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:30:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
In-Reply-To: <6dbb4ec0367d3337483f33eb8a2c4200@mac.com>
References: <BE34EC5B.F77C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<6dbb4ec0367d3337483f33eb8a2c4200@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2b24ab7912cc69988a6aaafb6ed2250c@mac.com>


On Feb 13, 2005, at 1:28 PM, Michael Snider wrote:

>
> On Feb 13, 2005, at 12:36 PM, David Graham wrote:
>
>>
>>> Poet: White male
>>
>> YES
>
> Shoudn't get too many points for that. Given English-language and no 
> earlier than 20th century, the odds are pretty close to even.
>

BTW, I guessed, googled, and was wrong. Sigh



From tad at opus40.org  Sun Feb 13 15:58:19 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:58:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Mystery poet
References: <BE34F0F4.F784%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<01a701c511f5$f7a03aa0$2ea93452@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <008901c5120e$c1585180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Faustina IS Janet McCann.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Mystery poet


> Faustina already answered:
> Janet McCann
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
> admirers.
> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 6:56 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Mystery poet
>
>
>> on 2/13/05 11:48 AM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:
>>
>> > Ok, I googled it. Wasn't too far off. You're right though, it couldn't
> have
>> > been written in the 70s because "a stone" wasn't mentioned in the 
>> > piece.
>> >
>>
>> One of the things that struck me about the piece was that it did seem 
>> like
>> our Mystery Author might have been reading some of the folks already
>> mentioned, and yes, it might as well have been written a quarter century
>> ago.  Still, there are some characteristic touches, I'd say; it's not
> simply
>> a Simic or Tate pastiche.
>>
>> Feel free to Google, anyone who *must* know now.  I'll reveal the actual
>> author to the patient or Google-impaired later tonight; in the meantime,
>> others may feel free to keep guessing.
>>
>> ====================================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>> Home Page:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> ====================================================
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 13 17:17:18 2005
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:17:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others:  Scott Cairns, "On Slow Learning"
Message-ID: <20050213221718.93468.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>

On Slow Learning
Scott Cairns

If you have ever owned
a tortoise, you already know
how terribly difficult
paper training can be
for some pets.

Even if you get so far
as to instill in your tortoise
the value of achieving the paper,
there remains one obstacle--
your tortoise's intrinsic sloth.

Even a well-intentioned tortoise
may find himself, in his journeys,
to be painfully far from the mark.

Failing, your tortoise may shy away
for weeks within his shell, utterly
ashamed, or looking up with tiny,
wet eyes offer an honest shrug.
Forgive him.

from *Philokalia:  New and Selected Poems"
Zoo Press, 2002

=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo 


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb 13 17:25:18 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:25:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet
Message-ID: <1b8.cbe9034.2f412dce@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/13/2005 12:48:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes:

> Wasn't too far off. You're right though, it couldn't have 
> been written in the 70s because "a stone" wasn't mentioned in the piece.
> 
> 

Some wag said of that period that the quintessential poem
would have in it a line like "a knife through the bones of trees."
No ordinary stone will do...it must be a totemic stone.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb 13 17:30:19 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:30:19 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Mystery poet
Message-ID: <90.57659311.2f412efb@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/13/2005 2:15:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> If anyone would have got it, I would have thought it'd be you, Jim

Don't rub it in, David...yes, I thought it was much too tight for his style.
I'm hoping this was anomaly and not a late period progression.
Jim F
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 13 18:53:36 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:53:36 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mystery poet revealed
In-Reply-To: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BE3544A0.F7B0%grahamd@ripon.edu>

And our mystery guest is . . .  Philip Levine.  From his newest book,
*Breath*.  To my ears, this doesn't sound much like recent Levine, except
for the middle stanza.  If someone else had posted it, I'm not sure who I
might have guessed, but Simic and Tate would probably have been high on the
list.  

Thanks for playing, everyone.

This game reminds me of one reportedly played by Roethke & Kunitz.  One
would quote some obscure passage from poetry of an earlier century, and the
other would try to date it within 10 years.  Wonder how many people could
even play that game today?

Anyone else feel like posting a different mystery poem, so I can play?



on 2/13/05 10:37 AM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote:

> You may well recognize the author of the following poem, for it is a Big
> Name.  But I'm wondering whether, without the name attached, it is easy or
> difficult to tell.
> 
> If anyone feels like playing. . . .
> 
> 
> Home for the Holidays
> 
> Does anyone give a shit? Not
> I, said the little brown mouse.
> And so to bed, said Mother,
> but no one was listening.
> Praise the Lord, said the radio,
> the radio said Praise the Lord
> again, and the television
> turned its back on the room.
> 
> Turnips for wisdom, eggplant
> for beauty, parsnips for ease,
> cabbage for size, a raw egg
> for the hair, a slice of ham
> to seize the hips, for the nose
> foxglove and salt, for grace
> ice-cold water poured from
> way high up to way down low.
> 
> Everyone sits at the big table
> in the dark. The empty plates
> moon, the silverware stars,
> the napkins scrub their hands.
> I'm home, says the front door.
> The windows are deep in thought,
> the roof has taken off its hat.
> Nothing to do, chants the toilet.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Feb 14 03:58:36 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:58:36 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Havel nice day
In-Reply-To: <ECOWS01MsO0y1nP4QUN0002c651@smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BE35C45C.8216%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 2/11/05 8:45 PM, "Peter Cudmore" <peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> I find it hard to believe that this ridiculous hyperbole issues from Vaclav
> Havel -- you sure we're talking about the same Havel?
> 
>> Where will it end? The release of Milosevic? Denying a visa
>> to Russian human-rights activist Sergey Kovalyov? An apology
>> to Saddam Hussein? The opening of peace talks with al Qaeda?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
I lifted the quote from an online magazine. Can't remember which.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Feb 14 13:46:36 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:46:36 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marlowe portrait?
Message-ID: <s2109db2.098@mail.highland.edu>

Speaking of mystery poets, has anyone heard about the newly uncovered
portrait (not in very good condition, as you'll see) thought to be of
Christopher Marlowe? It bears a strong resemblance to the "earlier"
Cambridge portrait. Henry Gould reproduces it here (scroll down a few
days):
http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com/

Kent


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Feb 14 18:17:36 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:17:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sweet poems for 400 lucky women
Message-ID: <27.6bda372f.2f428b90@aol.com>

I think it would have been a nice social statement if he'd sent
some sweet poems to men too.
Finnegan

http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_2567421

Sweet poems for 400 lucky women
America's latest poet laureate makes Feb. 14 a special day for his admirers 
By Sean Patrick Farrell, CORRESPONDENT  

    
 
Today, hundreds of women throughout the country will open their mailboxes to 
find a love poem written by a retired insurance man from Nebraska.  
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Feb 14 20:45:29 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:45:29 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Valentine's Day
Message-ID: <BE36B059.F7F6%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Ed 

Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress,
but Ed's family, and his friends,
didn't approve. So he broke it off.

He married a respectable woman
who played the piano. She played well enough
to have been a professional.

Ed's wife left him . . .
Years later, at a family gathering
Ed got drunk and made a fool of himself.

He said, "I should have married Doreen."
"Well," they said, "why didn't you?"


-- Louis Simpson. *Collected Poems* (Paragon House).


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Feb 15 04:41:17 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:41:17 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Valentine's Day
References: <BE36B059.F7F6%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00be01c51342$8069e500$5cde3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>


Hi David,

this is an interesting poem that goes with the movie I watched last night by
John Cassavetes: A woman under the influence, with a wonderful dramatic
performance by Gena Rowlands (1975). Nick, the protagonist, accepts under
the pressure of his too jealous and zealous mother to send his atypical wife
to a nuthouse for six months when Mabel is finally released. It is at this
point that he realizes how much he loved the nut he sent away. The closing
scene is an attempt to get her back somehow.

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:45 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Valentine's Day


> Ed
>
> Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress,
> but Ed's family, and his friends,
> didn't approve. So he broke it off.
>
> He married a respectable woman
> who played the piano. She played well enough
> to have been a professional.
>
> Ed's wife left him . . .
> Years later, at a family gathering
> Ed got drunk and made a fool of himself.
>
> He said, "I should have married Doreen."
> "Well," they said, "why didn't you?"
>
>
> -- Louis Simpson. *Collected Poems* (Paragon House).
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au  Tue Feb 15 07:28:39 2005
From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:28:39 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] submissions
In-Reply-To: <200502011700.j11H08An001253@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20050215122839.88607.qmail@web51402.mail.yahoo.com>


Malleable Jangle Issue 3 February is online at the moment. We seek to publish unpublished, original poetry, and related articles.  

We are seeking submissions of poetry, and related articles for Issue 4 March. I have been fishing for articles on poetics, or reviews, and have not had a single bite yet. Who will be the first to submit anything on poetics? I don't know? 

Issue 4 March will be Avant Garde, or maybe Modern, meets Australian heartland in its layout and design. Although based in Australia Malleable Jangle is International in its orientation, and encourages submissions from around the world. Submit your work to: malleablejangle at yahoo.com.au 

I'd like to thank all who have submitted their work to Malleable Jangle and hope that we continue to receive such quality submissions in the future. Best regards, Robert Lane.




Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings




---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 15 07:52:57 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:52:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Mystery Poet
In-Reply-To: <BE3544A0.F7B0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4211AA59.28462.37A391@localhost>

Elegy 
  in the Cemetery of Spoon River instead of in that of Stoke Poges

The curfew tolls the knell of parting day,
	The whippoorwill salutes the rising moon
And wanly glimmer in her gentle ray
	The sinuous windings of the turbid Spoon.

Here where the flattering and mendacious swarm
	Of lying epitaphs their secrets keep,
At last incapable of further harm
	The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.

The earliest drug of half-awakened morn
	Cocaine or hashish, strychnine, poppy-seeds,
Or fiery produce of fermented corn
	No more shall start them on the day?s misdeeds.

For them no more the whetstone?s cheerful noise.
	No more the sun upon his daily course
Shall watch them savouring the genial joys
	Of murder, bigamy, arson, and divorce.

Here they all lie; and, as the hour is late,
O stranger, o?er their tombstones cease to stoop,
But bow thine ear to me and contemplate
	Unexpurgated annals of the group.

There are two hundred only; yet of these
	Some thirty died of drowning in the river,
Sixteen went mad, ten others had D.T.?s,
	And twenty-eight cirrhosis of the liver.

Several by absent-minded friends were shot,
	Still more blew out their own exhausted brains,
One died of a mysterious inward rot,
	Three fell off roofs, and five were hit by trains.

One was harpooned, one gored by a bull moose,
	Four on the Fourth fell victims to lock jaw
Ten in electric chair or hempen noose
	Suffered the last exaction of the law.

Stranger, you quail, and seem inclined to run;
	But, timid stranger, do not be unnerved;
I can assure you that there was not one
	Who got a tithe of what he had deserved.

Full many a vice is born to thrive unseen,
	Full many a crime the world does not discuss,
Full many a pervert lives to reach a green
	Replete old age, and so it was with us.

Here lies a parson who would often make
	Clandestine rendevous with Claflin?s Moll,
And ?neath the druggist?s counter creep to take
	A surreptitious sip of alcohol.

And here a doctor, who had seven wives
	And fearing this menage might seem grotesque
Persuaded six of them to spend their lives
	Locked in a drawer of his private desk.

And others here there sleep who, given scope,
	Had writ their names large on the Scrolls of Crime;
Men who, with half a chance, might haply cope
	With the first miscreants of recorded crime.

Doubtless in this neglected spot is laid
	Some village Nero who has missed his due,
Some Bluebeard who dissected many a maid
	And all for naught, since no one ever knew.

Some poor bucolic Borgia here may rest
	Whose poisons sent whole families to their doom,
Some hayseed Herod who, within his breast,
	Concealed the sites of many an infant?s tomb.

Types that the Muse of Masefield might have stirred,
	Or waked to ecstasy Gaboriau,
Each in his narrow cell at last interred,
	All, all are sleeping peacefully below.

Enough, enough!  But, strangere, ere we part,
	Glancing farewell to each nefarious bier,
This warning I would beg you to take to heart:
	"There is an end to even the worst career!"








From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 15 08:52:27 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:52:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Mystery Poet
In-Reply-To: <4211AA59.28462.37A391@localhost>
References: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu> <4211AA59.28462.37A391@localhost>
Message-ID: <5689427.1108475547221.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 15, 2005, at 07:54AM, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

>Elegy 
>  in the Cemetery of Spoon River instead of in that of Stoke Poges
>
>The curfew tolls the knell of parting day,
>	The whippoorwill salutes the rising moon
>And wanly glimmer in her gentle ray
>	The sinuous windings of the turbid Spoon.
>
>Here where the flattering and mendacious swarm
>	Of lying epitaphs their secrets keep,
>At last incapable of further harm
>	The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
>
>The earliest drug of half-awakened morn
>	Cocaine or hashish, strychnine, poppy-seeds,
>Or fiery produce of fermented corn
>	No more shall start them on the day?s misdeeds.
>
>For them no more the whetstone?s cheerful noise.
>	No more the sun upon his daily course
>Shall watch them savouring the genial joys
>	Of murder, bigamy, arson, and divorce.
>
>Here they all lie; and, as the hour is late,
>O stranger, o?er their tombstones cease to stoop,
>But bow thine ear to me and contemplate
>	Unexpurgated annals of the group.
>
>There are two hundred only; yet of these
>	Some thirty died of drowning in the river,
>Sixteen went mad, ten others had D.T.?s,
>	And twenty-eight cirrhosis of the liver.
>
>Several by absent-minded friends were shot,
>	Still more blew out their own exhausted brains,
>One died of a mysterious inward rot,
>	Three fell off roofs, and five were hit by trains.
>
>One was harpooned, one gored by a bull moose,
>	Four on the Fourth fell victims to lock jaw
>Ten in electric chair or hempen noose
>	Suffered the last exaction of the law.
>
>Stranger, you quail, and seem inclined to run;
>	But, timid stranger, do not be unnerved;
>I can assure you that there was not one
>	Who got a tithe of what he had deserved.
>
>Full many a vice is born to thrive unseen,
>	Full many a crime the world does not discuss,
>Full many a pervert lives to reach a green
>	Replete old age, and so it was with us.
>
>Here lies a parson who would often make
>	Clandestine rendevous with Claflin?s Moll,
>And ?neath the druggist?s counter creep to take
>	A surreptitious sip of alcohol.
>
>And here a doctor, who had seven wives
>	And fearing this menage might seem grotesque
>Persuaded six of them to spend their lives
>	Locked in a drawer of his private desk.
>
>And others here there sleep who, given scope,
>	Had writ their names large on the Scrolls of Crime;
>Men who, with half a chance, might haply cope
>	With the first miscreants of recorded crime.
>
>Doubtless in this neglected spot is laid
>	Some village Nero who has missed his due,
>Some Bluebeard who dissected many a maid
>	And all for naught, since no one ever knew.
>
>Some poor bucolic Borgia here may rest
>	Whose poisons sent whole families to their doom,
>Some hayseed Herod who, within his breast,
>	Concealed the sites of many an infant?s tomb.
>
>Types that the Muse of Masefield might have stirred,
>	Or waked to ecstasy Gaboriau,
>Each in his narrow cell at last interred,
>	All, all are sleeping peacefully below.
>
>Enough, enough!  But, strangere, ere we part,
>	Glancing farewell to each nefarious bier,
>This warning I would beg you to take to heart:
>	"There is an end to even the worst career!"
>
>
>
>
>
>

I didn't have a clue -- but now, blessings be on Hal and Google, I look forward to many entertaining evenings.  Thanks.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 15 08:45:25 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:45:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement:  The English Lesson
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEGPKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The English Lesson by Halvard Johnson in a limited edition
of signed, numbered copies is now available from

    Unicorn Press, Inc.
    201 North Coulter Drive
    Bryan, Texas 77803

The price is $12.95 US (including shipping).

"The English Lesson" would be an anthropologist's delight
and a reader's feast even without Halvard Johnson's remarkable
ear. But its music, the composer's attention both global and
local, charges the poem with a story more visceral than its found
source can account for:

        I am very glad
        It gives me pleasure
        It give me great joy.

                    --Wendy Battin
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From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 15 09:04:22 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:04:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Mystery Poet
In-Reply-To: <5689427.1108475547221.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu> <4211AA59.28462.37A391@localhost>
	<5689427.1108475547221.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1496412.1108476262771.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 15, 2005, at 09:00AM, Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

> 
>On Tuesday, February 15, 2005, at 07:54AM, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
>
>>Elegy 
>>  in the Cemetery of Spoon River instead of in that of Stoke Poges
>>
>>The curfew tolls the knell of parting day,
>>	The whippoorwill salutes the rising moon
>>And wanly glimmer in her gentle ray
>>	The sinuous windings of the turbid Spoon.
>>
>>Here where the flattering and mendacious swarm
>>	Of lying epitaphs their secrets keep,
>>At last incapable of further harm
>>	The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
>>
>>The earliest drug of half-awakened morn
>>	Cocaine or hashish, strychnine, poppy-seeds,
>>Or fiery produce of fermented corn
>>	No more shall start them on the day?s misdeeds.
>>
>>For them no more the whetstone?s cheerful noise.
>>	No more the sun upon his daily course
>>Shall watch them savouring the genial joys
>>	Of murder, bigamy, arson, and divorce.
>>
>>Here they all lie; and, as the hour is late,
>>O stranger, o?er their tombstones cease to stoop,
>>But bow thine ear to me and contemplate
>>	Unexpurgated annals of the group.
>>
>>There are two hundred only; yet of these
>>	Some thirty died of drowning in the river,
>>Sixteen went mad, ten others had D.T.?s,
>>	And twenty-eight cirrhosis of the liver.
>>
>>Several by absent-minded friends were shot,
>>	Still more blew out their own exhausted brains,
>>One died of a mysterious inward rot,
>>	Three fell off roofs, and five were hit by trains.
>>
>>One was harpooned, one gored by a bull moose,
>>	Four on the Fourth fell victims to lock jaw
>>Ten in electric chair or hempen noose
>>	Suffered the last exaction of the law.
>>
>>Stranger, you quail, and seem inclined to run;
>>	But, timid stranger, do not be unnerved;
>>I can assure you that there was not one
>>	Who got a tithe of what he had deserved.
>>
>>Full many a vice is born to thrive unseen,
>>	Full many a crime the world does not discuss,
>>Full many a pervert lives to reach a green
>>	Replete old age, and so it was with us.
>>
>>Here lies a parson who would often make
>>	Clandestine rendevous with Claflin?s Moll,
>>And ?neath the druggist?s counter creep to take
>>	A surreptitious sip of alcohol.
>>
>>And here a doctor, who had seven wives
>>	And fearing this menage might seem grotesque
>>Persuaded six of them to spend their lives
>>	Locked in a drawer of his private desk.
>>
>>And others here there sleep who, given scope,
>>	Had writ their names large on the Scrolls of Crime;
>>Men who, with half a chance, might haply cope
>>	With the first miscreants of recorded crime.
>>
>>Doubtless in this neglected spot is laid
>>	Some village Nero who has missed his due,
>>Some Bluebeard who dissected many a maid
>>	And all for naught, since no one ever knew.
>>
>>Some poor bucolic Borgia here may rest
>>	Whose poisons sent whole families to their doom,
>>Some hayseed Herod who, within his breast,
>>	Concealed the sites of many an infant?s tomb.
>>
>>Types that the Muse of Masefield might have stirred,
>>	Or waked to ecstasy Gaboriau,
>>Each in his narrow cell at last interred,
>>	All, all are sleeping peacefully below.
>>
>>Enough, enough!  But, strangere, ere we part,
>>	Glancing farewell to each nefarious bier,
>>This warning I would beg you to take to heart:
>>	"There is an end to even the worst career!"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>I didn't have a clue -- but now, blessings be on Hal and Google, I look forward to many entertaining evenings.  Thanks.
>

That should be "blessings be on _Marcus_ and Google." Early in the morning, F-18s overhead.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Feb 15 09:52:50 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:52:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Blacklisted Journalist
Message-ID: <008e01c5136e$05896d70$32df3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>




DEAR FRIENDS AND READERS,

This is to let you know that the new issue of THE BLACKLISTED 
JOURNALIST, COLUMN 114, dated February 1, 2005 is now on the web. To 
take a look, click on http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj   

SECTION ONE: 
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column114.html GREEN HAVEN 
CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION, 4TH FLOOR. In this first chapter of Alex 
Zola's new novel, Perfect Accidents, the protagonist, a newspaper 
reporter, witnesses a botched execution. Alex himself has written on
a 
similar subject in his piece, EXECUTION STORY, in COLUMN 49 at 
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column49e.html 

SECTION TWO: 
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column114a.html BOOK REVIEW: 
GUANT?NAMO: WHAT THE WORLD SHOULD KNOW by Michael Ratner and Ellen
Ray 
Chelsea Green Publishing Company 184 Pages. Jules Siegel tells us the 
book confirms instances of torture of detainees by American captors.

SECTION THREE:
EMAIL PAGE ONE:
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column114b1.html LUCIEN CARR,
79, 
A BEAT GENERATION ORIGINAL, IS DEAD. An e from Jim Walck gives us the 
Reuters obit. Yeah, I knew Lucien.

SECTION THREE:
EMAIL PAGE TWO:
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column114b2.html RAMBLIN' JACK 
VISITS AUSTRALIA. An e from Stan Jarin asks us to imagine his
surprise 
when his lifelong hero comes to stay at his house in Melbourne for a 
month. CHERYL LIKES MY BOBBY DARIN BOOK. She sends an e telling how 
much she appreciated reading BOBBY DARIN WAS A FRIEND OF MINE. JODY 
SAYS MY 'BOB DYLAN AND THE BEATLES' IS A GREAT READ headlines an e 
from JodyDenberg. Tell your friends about the book. It ought to be a 
best-seller.

SECTION THREE:
EMAIL PAGE THREE:
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column114b3.html THAILAND'S 
EPIDEMIC OF SEVERED PENISES. An e from Khun Wayne, who spends a lot
of 
time in that country, tells us that reattaching severed penises has 
become a big medical industry in Thailand. 

SECTION FOUR: THE LITERARY LINKS SECTION: Links to THE ALLEN GINSBERG 
ORGANIZATION, THE RITA DOVE website, THE PETER COYOTE website; THE 
MCCLURE-MANZAREK website; the AMERICAN LEGENDS website; Anny 
Ballardini's POETS CORNER and we now add altweeklies.com, which is a 
comprehensive compilation of stories from various alternative 
newspapers from around the country!

SECTION FIVE: THE MOVIE SECTION: THE RITZ FILMBILL. Synopses of 
foreign, independent and Hollywood movies.

SECTION SIX: THE MUSIC SECTION, features the usual links to 
SONGSCENTRAL, PURR, POWER OF POP, all contemporary music e-zines; THE 
CELEBRITY CAF?, all about celebrities; the BABUKISHAN DAS BAUL 
website; and EAR CANDY.

SECTION SEVEN: THE ADVERTISING SECTION, offers 13 pages of ads from 
Earwraps; Cleveland International Records; Richard X. Heyman; 
Christopher Pick; J. Crow's Milled Cider; An Advertisement for
Myself; 
Tommy Womack, Compliments of a Friend; Zoe Artemis invites you to 
literary retreat in Greece; Richard Dettrey, who will help you with 
your shopping; BABY ON THE WATER by Tsaurah Litzky; BOB DYLAN AND THE 
BEATLES; and Arrogant Prick T-shirts. 

Would you, too, like to help keep THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST on the 
Internet? For a nominal contribution, you can have your own 
advertising page in the Advertising Section of THE BLACKLISTED 
JOURNALIST. Simply send us an email to find out about particulars.

There are links to friendly sites and we also feature MARK PUCCI'S 
ONLINE REVIEWS, originally edited by John Williams.
Hope you read and enjoy. 
Best, Al Aronowitz
 


_______________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From tad at opus40.org  Tue Feb 15 10:43:10 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:43:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Mystery Poet
References: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<4211AA59.28462.37A391@localhost><5689427.1108475547221.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1496412.1108476262771.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c51375$0fe27d50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

No blessings for Hal?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Mystery Poet



On Tuesday, February 15, 2005, at 09:00AM, Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com> 
wrote:

>
>On Tuesday, February 15, 2005, at 07:54AM, Marcus Bales 
><marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
>
>>Elegy
>>  in the Cemetery of Spoon River instead of in that of Stoke Poges
>>
>>The curfew tolls the knell of parting day,
>> The whippoorwill salutes the rising moon
>>And wanly glimmer in her gentle ray
>> The sinuous windings of the turbid Spoon.
>>
>>Here where the flattering and mendacious swarm
>> Of lying epitaphs their secrets keep,
>>At last incapable of further harm
>> The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
>>
>>The earliest drug of half-awakened morn
>> Cocaine or hashish, strychnine, poppy-seeds,
>>Or fiery produce of fermented corn
>> No more shall start them on the day's misdeeds.
>>
>>For them no more the whetstone's cheerful noise.
>> No more the sun upon his daily course
>>Shall watch them savouring the genial joys
>> Of murder, bigamy, arson, and divorce.
>>
>>Here they all lie; and, as the hour is late,
>>O stranger, o'er their tombstones cease to stoop,
>>But bow thine ear to me and contemplate
>> Unexpurgated annals of the group.
>>
>>There are two hundred only; yet of these
>> Some thirty died of drowning in the river,
>>Sixteen went mad, ten others had D.T.'s,
>> And twenty-eight cirrhosis of the liver.
>>
>>Several by absent-minded friends were shot,
>> Still more blew out their own exhausted brains,
>>One died of a mysterious inward rot,
>> Three fell off roofs, and five were hit by trains.
>>
>>One was harpooned, one gored by a bull moose,
>> Four on the Fourth fell victims to lock jaw
>>Ten in electric chair or hempen noose
>> Suffered the last exaction of the law.
>>
>>Stranger, you quail, and seem inclined to run;
>> But, timid stranger, do not be unnerved;
>>I can assure you that there was not one
>> Who got a tithe of what he had deserved.
>>
>>Full many a vice is born to thrive unseen,
>> Full many a crime the world does not discuss,
>>Full many a pervert lives to reach a green
>> Replete old age, and so it was with us.
>>
>>Here lies a parson who would often make
>> Clandestine rendevous with Claflin's Moll,
>>And 'neath the druggist's counter creep to take
>> A surreptitious sip of alcohol.
>>
>>And here a doctor, who had seven wives
>> And fearing this menage might seem grotesque
>>Persuaded six of them to spend their lives
>> Locked in a drawer of his private desk.
>>
>>And others here there sleep who, given scope,
>> Had writ their names large on the Scrolls of Crime;
>>Men who, with half a chance, might haply cope
>> With the first miscreants of recorded crime.
>>
>>Doubtless in this neglected spot is laid
>> Some village Nero who has missed his due,
>>Some Bluebeard who dissected many a maid
>> And all for naught, since no one ever knew.
>>
>>Some poor bucolic Borgia here may rest
>> Whose poisons sent whole families to their doom,
>>Some hayseed Herod who, within his breast,
>> Concealed the sites of many an infant's tomb.
>>
>>Types that the Muse of Masefield might have stirred,
>> Or waked to ecstasy Gaboriau,
>>Each in his narrow cell at last interred,
>> All, all are sleeping peacefully below.
>>
>>Enough, enough!  But, strangere, ere we part,
>> Glancing farewell to each nefarious bier,
>>This warning I would beg you to take to heart:
>> "There is an end to even the worst career!"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>I didn't have a clue -- but now, blessings be on Hal and Google, I look 
>forward to many entertaining evenings.  Thanks.
>

That should be "blessings be on _Marcus_ and Google." Early in the morning, 
F-18s overhead.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 15 10:47:53 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:47:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Mystery Poet
In-Reply-To: <005d01c51375$0fe27d50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEHDKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

  
{    No blessings for Hal?
{    
{    
{    Tad Richards

No more needed, Tad. I blesst up.

Hal         "The trouble with words is that you never know
               whose mouths they've been in."
                                           --Dennis Potter
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 15 11:13:46 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:13:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Mystery Poet
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEHDKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEHDKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <16731484.1108484026198.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 15, 2005, at 10:51AM, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

>  
>{    No blessings for Hal?
>{    
>{    
>{    Tad Richards
>
>No more needed, Tad. I blesst up.
>

Aw, what the heck ... bless us every one!

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From tad at opus40.org  Tue Feb 15 11:59:36 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:59:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism by others
References: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<4211AA59.28462.37A391@localhost><5689427.1108475547221.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1496412.1108476262771.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000901c5137f$bd1fa830$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

 

Taruskin begins his discussion of Puccini by noting that even as snobby academics "heap critical invective" upon the composer's music, regular folk pour into opera houses to hear it. What interests Taruskin is not who is "right" (a fool's game, surely). It's what lies behind the snobbery - namely, the notion that progress equals merit in art. This idea, hard-wired into most of our brains, turns out to be yet another intellectual leftover from those pesky 19th-century German romantics. 

But don't get too comfortable, Puccini lovers! The title of this particular sub-chapter is "Truth or Sadism": when he writes about the composer's operas, Taruskin raises the question of all those doomed heroines. "Has Puccini's enduring popularity," Taruskin asks, "been due to his skill in administering sadistic gratification [through music]? If so, then shall we place the blame on Puccini, or on the ones who have made him popular, namely, ourselves? Is an art that caters to bad instinct bad art? Does such catering promote social evil or (by giving our evil fantasies an acceptable outlet) social good?" 

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/magnumopus.html







Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Tue Feb 15 02:22:07 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:22:07 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louis Simpson's poem.  Est-ce que, n'est-ce que?
Message-ID: <a05100303be3750f17045@[204.215.200.205]>

M a r c u s  B a l e s:

Is this a poem, according to your rules, or is it a type of prose 
tricked out to look like a poem?

This is a sincere question, I have no ulterior motive in asking it. 
I believe that you will answer that it is NOT a poem because, for 
starters, it has no meter.  It may be witty and wise, it may have a 
few comical pauses, but that's it.  ED is no more a poem than this 
post is.

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n





From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:45 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Valentine's Day

>  Ed
>
>  Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress,
>  but Ed's family, and his friends,
>  didn't approve. So he broke it off.
>
>  He married a respectable woman
>  who played the piano. She played well enough
>  to have been a professional.
>
>  Ed's wife left him . . .
>  Years later, at a family gathering
>  Ed got drunk and made a fool of himself.
>
>  He said, "I should have married Doreen."
>  "Well," they said, "why didn't you?"
>
>
>  -- Louis Simpson. *Collected Poems* (Paragon House)

  Ed

  Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress, but Ed's family, and his friends,
  didn't approve. So he broke it off. He married a respectable woman
  who played the piano. She played well enough to have been a professional.
  Ed's wife left him  Years later, at a family gathering  Ed got drunk 
and made a   fool of himself. He said, "I should have married 
Doreen." "Well," they said, "          why didn't you?".
-- 
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 15 16:26:57 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:26:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louis Simpson's poem.  Est-ce que, n'est-ce que?
In-Reply-To: <a05100303be3750f17045@[204.215.200.205]>
Message-ID: <421222D1.9369.1017955@localhost>

On 15 Feb 2005 at 15:22, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
> M a r c u s B a l e s:
> Is this a poem, ... ?
> This is a sincere question, I have no ulterior motive in asking it. I
> believe that you will answer that it is NOT a poem because, for
> starters, it has no meter. It may be witty and wise, it may have a few
> comical pauses, but that's it. ED is no more a poem than this post is.<

Just so.

My question is why people want to call such anecdotes "poems", except 
for the honor of it, as it were. People who produce such things don't 
want to be known as "columnists" or "raconteurs" or "anecdotalists" 
or "journalists" or "diarists" or even "short story writers" because  
those don't carry the cultural weight that "poet" carries, so they 
call what they write "poems" and themselves "poets" even though there 
are thousands of years acrosss thousands of languages of evidence 
that writing without meter has simply not been regarded, or referred 
to, as "poetry".

This is a new thing in the last hundred years, and I think it's a 
very bad thing for the arts in general and for poetry in particular, 
because the enormous number of, and the demands on the generosity of 
patrons and the arts needs of arts institutions by, the poseurs makes 
it so difficult and time-consuming for consumers, and possible 
consumers, of poetry to judge what's valuable that it's all discarded 
as not valuable enough to spend time on.

It's an endemic complaint around the poetry world that the audience 
for poetry is small and getting smaller even as the number of people 
who claim to be poets and want to publish their work (though not buy 
others' or read others', of course) grows. That's a recipe for 
disaster for the entire endeavor, since it means that there's a 
vicious spiral downward into irrelevance for poetry in the  society 
as a whole.

Marcus

> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:45 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Valentine's Day
> > Ed
> >
> > Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress,
> > but Ed's family, and his friends,
> > didn't approve. So he broke it off.
> >
> > He married a respectable woman
> > who played the piano. She played well enough
> > to have been a professional.
> >
> > Ed's wife left him . . .
> > Years later, at a family gathering
> > Ed got drunk and made a fool of himself.
> >
> > He said, "I should have married Doreen."
> > "Well," they said, "why didn't you?"
> >
> >> -- Louis Simpson. *Collected Poems* (Paragon House)
> 
> Ed
> 
> Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress, but Ed's family, and his
> friends,didn't approve. So he broke it off. He married a respectable
> woman who played the piano. She played well enough to have been a
> professional. Ed's wife left him Years later, at a family gathering Ed
> got drunk and made a fool of himself. He said, "I should have married
> Doreen." "Well," they said, "why didn't you?". -- 
> 





From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Feb 15 16:47:37 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:47:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louis Simpson's poem.  Est-ce que, n'est-ce que?
Message-ID: <1a6.31b59079.2f43c7f9@cs.com>

Simpson's anecdotal verse pieces (and they are written in verse, not prose) 
have been perking along for over 20 years now.  He seems to have convinced 
himself that he can write minimalist short stories in verse (similar to the prose 
"flash fictions" or "short-shorts") that have been popular in recent years 
that evoke Chekhov.  Some of them are very slight; others are pretty good ("Spry" 
"Swing and Sway" many more) when they're not so elliptical.  I don't see this 
one as very successful, mainly because it's just anecdotal, not a fleshed out 
narrative as many of his are.  Would this improve it?  I don't think so.

Ed

Ed loved a cocktail waitress,
But relative and friend
Did not care for the woman
And soon it reached an end.

He wed a proper woman,
A pianist endorsed
As one who could play concerts.
Later they divorced.

Years later, drunk, he whimpered,
"I should have wed Doreen."
"Why didn't you?" they asked him
While he made a scene.
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Tue Feb 15 17:04:26 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:04:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louis Simpson's poem.
	=?ISO-8859-1?B?oEVzdC1jZSBxdWUsIG4nZXN0LWNlIHF1ZT8=?=
Message-ID: <67D30FBF.68DEB83D.001A46F6@aol.com>

poetry, cultural weight? do you really think simpson (as one of the people who produced such a thing) is looking for cultural weight at this point in his career? simpson a poseur? i love ya marcus, but you're granting poetry way too much heft in the american culture @ 2005!

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 15 20:40:20 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:40:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>

>even though there are thousands of years acrosss thousands of languages
of evidence that writing without meter has simply not been regarded, or
referred to, as "poetry". This is a new thing in the last hundred
years...


I blame it on the airplane, myself... And the electrification of the
countryside.
 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 15 20:58:20 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:58:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Was Formalism?
Message-ID: <s212546f.015@mail.highland.edu>

Eliot Weinberger:  "What Was Formalism?" (By the way, Eliot Weinberger has recently published [in the London Review of Books and now on its website] what has already become perhaps the most widely read anaphoric poem [oh, dare I call it that?] of the last one hundred years. It goes on for about a hundred pages, too-- a litany of the lies of the Bush administration.) But here's the link to his hilarious and dismantling essay on the so-called New Formalism:

http://www.jacketmagazine.com/06/wein-form.html

(excerpt)
...I began to suspect that the vaunted strictures of the New Formalism were rather like the rules in a household with small children: tiny attempts at maintaining order, frequently reiterated, and rarely observed. Very few Rebel Angels attempted anything more difficult than a sonnet, and only a few even tried their hands at these. Many of the poems merely kept to regular stanza forms, without rhyme -- as countless "free verse" poems do. The rhymes themselves were astonishingly banal (brook/book, well/tell, park/dark, eye/sky, storm/warm, etc); not a one even approached the wit of popular song: Bob Dylan ("the pump don't work/ 'cause the vandals/ took the handles") or Smokey Robinson or Moss Hart or Curtis Mayfield or John Lennon or nearly any song by Cole Porter ("Let's throw away anxiety, let's quite forget propriety,/ Respectable society, the rector and his piety,/ And contemplate l'amour in all its infinite variety,/ My dear, let's talk about love.").
      And nearly every poem was written in three, four, or five feet of iambs. What is difficult, as Pound said at the beginning of the century, is not to write in iambs: "to break the HEAVE." After all, most of what we say in English is an unstressed monosyllabic personal pronoun or possessive or preposition or article followed by a stressed monosyllabic noun or verb (one iamb) or a disyllabic noun or verb stressed on its first syllable (one and a half iambs). Most polysyllabic words have alternating stresses. When one adds the permissible trochee at the beginning of the line, the permissible anapests anywhere, and all the other little infractions -- exceptions that are supposed to make the rule -- it may well be that the iamb is no more a formal quality than standard spelling. 
      Add to this the facts that the division into strictly stressed and unstressed syllables is inappropriate to English, that a line may have many possible scansions according to how it is read ("Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?"), and that off-rhymes, some quite far-fetched, "count" in a rhyme-scheme, and we are left with a system of measurement as organic and untechnical as Williams' much-derided "variable foot" (which, by the way, is what English-language poets have always practiced). The only American formalists of the century may well turn out to be Louis Zukofsky, John Cage, and Jackson Mac Low, who invented their own, idiosyncratic and inflexible rules: placement of letters according to mathematical or mystical formulae, predetermined word lists and selection processes, and so on. 
      I'm sorry, but these Rebel Angels are wimps, caf? Republicans measuring out their lives in coffee spoons that keep changing size. For real formalism, we must go to the Old Formalism, to the days when forms were forms and form had nothing to do with etiquette. We must go back, that is, to the Vikings:
  Viking formalism meant, for example, that to write a mere epitaph of ordinary statements and sentiments for a tomb -- such as "Here lies a warrior famed for his virtue. Denmark will never know a more honorable sea-captain, or one stronger in battle" -- one began with a common stanza form, such as the dr?ttkvatt. 
      This stanza form had eight lines, broken into two half-stanzas of four lines, each expressing a single thought, that were, in turn, divided into two couplets. Each line had six syllables; only three could be stressed (and Old Norse, as one can imagine, had genuine stresses). The first line of each couplet had to have two stressed syllables that began with the same sound, which was also the sound of the first stressed syllable in the next line. (The other stressed syllables could not be alliterate.) The two stressed alliterative syllables in the first line could not rhyme; but the first stressed alliterative syllable in the second line had to rhyme with another syllable in the same line to which it was not alliterative.
      
The word order was completely unlike that of prose. For example, the structure of a normal prose sentence of 16 words (taking 1, 2, 3, etc., as the words in their proper prose order) looks like this in a relatively simple half-stanza:

 
 2    4    5    3
 1    8    9    6    7
12   10   13   14
11   15   16   
  
 
 In a more complex poem, poetic syntax is further stretched by fragmenting and reassembling the clauses. For example, back to the sea-captain and the first half-stanza. ("Here lies a warrior famed for his virtue . . . ") The poet employs a kenning, or epithet, for warrior ("the one who carried out the work of ?rudr, goddess of battles"), and the whole sentence reads literally: "Under this mound is hidden the one who carried out the work of ?rudr, goddess of battles, whom the greatest virtues accompanied; most men knew that." (Though the Old Norse only has 15 words.)
      The poem (keeping the literal English prose syntax) breaks this into something like:

 

 
 Under this mound     whom the greatest
most men knew that     virtues
accompanied     the one who carried out the work of ?rudr
goddess of battles     is hidden
 
  
 
 The pattern of clauses is: 
 
 
 1     3
 4     3
 3     2
 2     1    
 

 This was merely a tombstone epitaph, not a particularly memorable poem. It was written, as all poetry was, in a single line. (The ragged right-hand margin is a by-product of the availability of cheap paper.) There were no spaces between the words. The form of the poem was musically, not visually, evident -- and evident to all its readers or listeners -- and was only one of many such forms, most of them even more complex.
      In a famous Icelandic story in the sagas, Hallbj?rn of ?ingvellir wanted to compose a poem in praise of a dead poet. He fell asleep on the poet's burial mound and dreamed that the mound opened, a tall man appeared, and said, "There you lie, Hallbj?rn of ?ingvellir, trying to do something you are incapable of doing -- composing a poem in praise of me." The dead poet then taught Hallbj?rn all the forms while he dreamed. They took many years to master, but in the end he wrote his poem.
 
 
 






From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Feb 15 23:32:27 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:32:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louis Simpson's poem
In-Reply-To: <1a6.31b59079.2f43c7f9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BE3828FB.F872%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I agree with all of what Sam says, really.  One further thought:  I don't
get hot & bothered when a poet writes a throw-away piece, "anecdotal" or
otherwise.  If every poem were an attempt at *The Duino Elegies*, what a
dull world it would be. . . .

In any case, I'd say Simpson's written more than his share of keepers over
the years, and though "Ed" is probably not headed for any future Palgrave's,
it's a fun little anti-romantic blurt for Valentine's day.

My main problem with many of Simpson's poems, especially recently, is that
there isn't much mouth-music at all.  "Ed" is verse, as Sam points out,
since it's written in lines.  (Didn't Auden say somewhere that the
difference between prose and verse is bloody obvious?)  But it's not
particularly musical; and by that I don't mean that it lacks meter.


on 2/15/05 3:47 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

Simpson's anecdotal verse pieces (and they are written in verse, not prose)
have been perking along for over 20 years now.  He seems to have convinced
himself that he can write minimalist short stories in verse (similar to the
prose "flash fictions" or "short-shorts") that have been popular in recent
years that evoke Chekhov.  Some of them are very slight; others are pretty
good ("Spry" "Swing and Sway" many more) when they're not so elliptical.  I
don't see this one as very successful, mainly because it's just anecdotal,
not a fleshed out narrative as many of his are.  Would this improve it?  I
don't think so.

Ed

Ed loved a cocktail waitress,
But relative and friend
Did not care for the woman
And soon it reached an end.

He wed a proper woman,
A pianist endorsed
As one who could play concerts.
Later they divorced.

Years later, drunk, he whimpered,
"I should have wed Doreen."
"Why didn't you?" they asked him
While he made a scene.

_______________________________________________
Ed 

Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress,
but Ed's family, and his friends,
didn't approve. So he broke it off.

He married a respectable woman
who played the piano. She played well enough
to have been a professional.

Ed's wife left him . . .
Years later, at a family gathering
Ed got drunk and made a fool of himself.

He said, "I should have married Doreen."
"Well," they said, "why didn't you?"


-- Louis Simpson. *Collected Poems* (Paragon House).

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 15 23:30:28 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:30:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Robert Duncan,
	2 poems in imitation of Stein
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEIFKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


This is the poem they are praising as loaded

This is the poem they are praising as loaded. This is as it
is loaded and thrilling. Loaded with death's kingdom which
is meaning. Loaded with meaning which is gathering the
former tenants. Loaded with the former tenants speaking
which brings weeping and fulfilling. Loaded with fulfilling
which brings crises and then wealthy associations. This is
the poem loaded up without shooting which is an eternal
threatening.

The sadness of the threatening makes a poem in the poem's
increasing. This is not an increasing in mere size but a more
and moreness of pressure and precedence. An explosion
that does not come but makes a partial exposure as
a disclosure that substitutes for its period.

This makes an imposing poem, an imposter pretending to be
what he really is, makes a great poem in collecting. This is
the passing of the collection face. An anthology of human
beings. A loaded folding up in which history is folded.



Orchards

Shake the tree. Leave the words fall where they woolen, the
airy spaces for verbs to came in a went they wind.
Not a storm. Not a space for a storming one.
Numbers in ovals, ovals in whirls for pitches.

What are the roots? The roots is conceald to this sorry tree.
What is this tree sorry for? It is forever.
Shake the sad tree and watch its tenses loosen or apples listen
for pitches.

Pitches is further darkness. Further darkness is thickness of
sentence in branches is other thoughts that demand ranging.
This is only a tree by limiting which makes forgetting grow.
Organic form from lines that indicate understandable stems
of feeling, trunks that sense real beginning.

Shake the sentence and divide understandables into originals
which are pitch black or pitchers full with arrangements.

This takes a cast of the original people who are changed into
verbs.

Only verbs sing and so they are singing.

Are you willing for their singing? There were a sentence
that is really sentences.

A sentence is a judgment; fairly constructed but we
acknowledge unfair in its concealments.

And leave the words for the dark they come to in
grammatical spaces.

--Robert Duncan

fr. "imitations of Gertrude Stein 1953-1955"
in *Derivations: Selected Poems 1950-1956*
[London: Fulcrum Press, 1968]


Hal                

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Feb 16 00:29:28 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:29:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Was Formalism?
Message-ID: <8.6237ec61.2f443438@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/15/2005 7:59:14 PM Central Standard Time, 
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: 
> http://www.jacketmagazine.com/06/wein-form.html
> 
This review, such as it is, is 7 years old, and, while I am not mentioned by 
name for this critical genius's censure, he does admit that one of my poems' 
titles caused him to turn the page without reading.  The poem in question is a 
cento, composed of famous lines of iambic pentameter, arranged in what I hoped 
was a humorous fashion to comment on poets' continuing obsession with aging 
and death.  If you want to go through an anthology of 200+ pages and pick out 
30 or so weak lines to prove whatever point, go for it.  Rebel Angels contains 
some weak poems, to be sure, but many fine ones.  But if you've got some kind 
of ax to grind, you might as well look through The Golden Treasury and pick 
out a few duds to make your case.  Perhaps the critic could turn his eye to 
something like The Norton Anthology of Post-Modern Poetry.
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Feb 16 01:29:42 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:29:42 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216001323.03420f88@mail.ilstu.edu>

Go find language NOT "metered," not "metrical."  Even "Ed" is -- and 
fascinatingly so. It's complexly metered but metered. Those who want their 
poetry to read like jingles and as regular as Yule Brynner are the same 
prols who would deny Piers Plowman  as poetry, with its fascinating 
clashing stresses and mix of accentual-stress and alliterative stress -- or 
any number of poems not only in contemporary English, but Old Norse, 
contemporary Icelandic, Old German, Middle English, Italian, Hindi -- and 
on and on...

It's basically a completely retarded argument.  
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Feb 16 02:12:09 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:12:09 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>

"even though there are thousands of years acrosss thousands of languages"

In fact, you've got it backward. The obsession w/ rigidly regular "metrics" 
is in fact the newer phenomenon -- starting mainly with Ben Jonson, the 
most neoclassical of the English Renaissance writeres-- the dude who 
prefigured what would become an Augustan orthodoxy-- and said of Donne that 
he "deserved hanging" for his failure to "keep accents."  Pope even rewrote 
Donne's second and fourth satires, calling Donne's numbers "rugged" and 
"disgusting." Samuel Johnson was one among many who said during the 18th C 
that the Metaphysicals wrote "rough" and "rugged" stuff that needed to be 
smoothened and polished -- and removed, too (and this is key) its 
"offensive" content when it was rewritten (which it inevitably was): Pope 
completely removed all mention of excrement and shit from Donne's works 
when he "revised" them. The idea of metrical irregularity became in fact a 
way to prissify the content. You see the same thing even now -- a serious 
prissification of content masked as "metrics."

then Bales wrote:
> >even though there are thousands of years acrosss thousands of languages
>of evidence that writing without meter has simply not been regarded, or
>referred to, as "poetry". This is a new thing in the last hundred
>years...
>
>
>I blame it on the airplane, myself... And the electrification of the
>countryside.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

__________________
Gabriel Gudding
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, IL  61790
office 309.438.5284
gmguddi at ilstu.edu 



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Feb 16 03:22:08 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:22:08 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal Poetry
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216022018.0359f8c0@mail.ilstu.edu>

  FORMAL POETRY


Some mornings, lightbeams wooly, when I wake
and shake the semen from its tap while
thinking of your face, boobies, or hips hitched up
before me as a saddled thing -- I wonder

often, after, if you would think my effort
-- astraddle the drooled pillow compacted
hips gantried forward, non-church
grunting, the spade hand shuttling in my middle

and eyes extruded in tawdry awe -- would you
think the effort ugly, or over willed? And after
when all is stilled and there is wonder in the pause,
my penis wet with nether pus: did anyone see

what, contra naturam, I just goddamned did?
Thus so, the world, at once both thrilled and dead.



From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 16 07:44:42 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:44:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <4212F9EA.25258.27352A@localhost>

Marcus Bales wrote:
> "even though there are thousands of years acrosss thousands of
> languages"
 
On 16 Feb 2005 at 1:12, Gabriel Gudding wrote:
> In fact, you've got it backward. The obsession w/ rigidly regular
> "metrics" is in fact the newer phenomenon<

Adding adjectives won't help your cause. I don't hold that any 
particular meter must be "rigidly regular" in order to count as meter 
in general. My point is that across thousands of years and languages 
all we know about what humanity has called "poetry" is that poetry 
has been distinguished from other writing by being written in meter 
of one kind or another -- until the last hundred years or so.

What kind of benefit, measured against what standard, has accrued 
from abandoning meter? 

Kent Johnson wrote:
> > I blame it on the airplane, myself... And the electrification of 
> > the countryside.

Another irrelevancy: this is the Bob Grumman argument, that there is 
"progress" in poetry as there was progress in high-jumping with the 
Fosbury Flop. Kent Johnson is arguing here that abandoning meter is 
as significant a forward step as flying and electrification. The 
problem with both the Grumman and the Johnson claims, though, is that 
they cannot articulate the standard against which to measure the 
progress they claim has been achieved by abandoning meter. In the 
high jump, flying, and electification what counts as success is 
extremely clear. Where is the clarity of purpose and result in the 
arts against which to measure progress? There is none. Art is a 
matter of subjectivity withing a tradition. Both Grumman and Johnson 
are advocating abandoning one very long tradition in favor of another 
much shorter one, on the basis of the mistaken notion that art is 
science. Well, it's not science. There is no "progress" in art in the 
way there is progress in science. Asking whether there is progress in 
art is like asking whether there is progress in love.

Marcus






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 16 07:46:31 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:46:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louis Simpson's poem.  Est-ce que, n'est-ce que?
References: <421222D1.9369.1017955@localhost>
Message-ID: <005e01c51425$8acf6400$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 15 Feb 2005 at 15:22, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>> M a r c u s B a l e s:
>> Is this a poem, ... ?
>> This is a sincere question, I have no ulterior motive in asking it. I
>> believe that you will answer that it is NOT a poem because, for
>> starters, it has no meter. It may be witty and wise, it may have a few
>> comical pauses, but that's it. ED is no more a poem than this post is.<
>
> Just so.
>
> My question is why people want to call such anecdotes "poems", except
> for the honor of it, as it were.

Most people call it a poem because most people call it a poem.  Those who 
think about it call it a poem because it is not prose.  It is not prose 
because of its line breaks.  Rendering it as prose costs it the ability to 
slow the reader and to emphasize images or ideas (sure, this particular one 
does that minimally, for a poem).  The line breaks also make it look like a 
poem on the page, so those who read it, will (or should) read it differently 
from the way they'd read prose.  To say it is not a poem is simply to say 
that one cannot appreciate line breaks.  And don't tell me they are trivial 
but regimenting beats or repeating parts of the sounds of words are not.

Note on Weinberger: I say he's foolishly wrong about "Shall I compare thee 
to a summer's day."   There's only one way to scan it--if you understand 
that syllables should be accented if they are more emphasized than the 
syllables right after or before them.

--Bob G.


Ed

Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress,
but Ed's family, and his friends,
didn't approve. So he broke it off.

He married a respectable woman
who played the piano. She played well enough
to have been a professional.

Ed's wife left him . . .
Years later, at a family gathering
Ed got drunk and made a fool of himself.

He said, "I should have married Doreen."
"Well," they said, "why didn't you?"

-- Louis Simpson. *Collected Poems* (Paragon House)


 Ed

 Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress, but Ed's family, and his 
friends,didn't approve. So he broke it off. He married a respectable woman 
who played the piano. She played well enough to have been a professional. 
Ed's wife left him Years later, at a family gathering Ed got drunk and made 
a fool of himself. He said, "I should have married Doreen." "Well," they 
said, "why didn't you?". -- 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 16 07:54:40 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:54:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216001323.03420f88@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <009001c51426$ae126100$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>Go find language NOT "metered," not "metrical."

This is the same kind of moronic logic that finds all poems to be political.  Words are used to distinguish some X from some not-X.  "Meter" is a word used to distinguish language that has a REGULAR beat for significant lengths of time from language that does not.  Yes, jingles.  To confuse it with "rhyrthm" makes no sense.

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 16 07:58:00 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:58:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <009a01c51427$25695fb0$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> "even though there are thousands of years acrosss thousands of languages"
>
> In fact, you've got it backward. The obsession w/ rigidly regular 
> "metrics" is in fact the newer phenomenon -- starting mainly with Ben 
> Jonson, the most neoclassical of the English Renaissance writeres-- the 
> dude who prefigured what would become an Augustan orthodoxy-- and said of 
> Donne that he "deserved hanging" for his failure to "keep accents."  Pope 
> even rewrote Donne's second and fourth satires, calling Donne's numbers 
> "rugged" and "disgusting." Samuel Johnson was one among many who said 
> during the 18th C that the Metaphysicals wrote "rough" and "rugged" stuff 
> that needed to be smoothened and polished -- and removed, too (and this is 
> key) its "offensive" content when it was rewritten (which it inevitably 
> was): Pope completely removed all mention of excrement and shit from 
> Donne's works when he "revised" them. The idea of metrical irregularity 
> became in fact a way to prissify the content. You see the same thing even 
> now -- a serious prissification of content masked as "metrics."


No.  It's just that the kind of mind that requires metrical regularity tends 
to require prissification.  Those who call for and/or use regular meter do 
so because they believe in it, and don't appreciate other ways of doing the 
art, not to prissify.

--Bob G. 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 16 08:09:43 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:09:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Louis Simpson's poem.  Est-ce que, n'est-ce que?
In-Reply-To: <005e01c51425$8acf6400$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4212FFC7.5340.3E1927@localhost>

> > On 15 Feb 2005 at 15:22, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
> >> M a r c u s B a l e s:
> >> Is this a poem, ... ?
> >> This is a sincere question, I have no ulterior motive in asking it.
> >> I believe that you will answer that it is NOT a poem because, for
> >> starters, it has no meter. It may be witty and wise, it may have a
> >> few comical pauses, but that's it. ED is no more a poem than this
> >> post is.<
> >
Marcus Bales wrote:
> > Just so.
> > My question is why people want to call such anecdotes "poems",
> > except for the honor of it, as it were.
> 
On 16 Feb 2005 at 7:46, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Most people call it a poem because most people call it a poem.<

So it's the "Forty Thousand Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" argument, at 
last, is it? Ad populum is the best you can do? 

On 16 Feb 2005 at 7:46, Bob Grumman wrote:
> ... It is not prose because of its line breaks.<

This is just as arbitrary as saying "It is not prose because of its 
meter". There is no good reason that "line breaks" is a better 
criteria for deciding what's poetry and what's prose than "meter". It 
is merely arbitrary whim and caprice. It is not a measure of 
"better", as in being able to jump over higher bars with the Fosbury 
Flop than by leaping forward. It is not a measure of getting to one's 
destination faster as in flying, or in being able to do more work as 
in electrification. It is merely arbitrary and, thus, not "better", 
not "progress".

On 16 Feb 2005 at 7:46, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Rendering it as prose costs it the
> ability to slow the reader and to emphasize images or ideas<

The idea that the reader is so stupid that in order to get him or her 
to understand what is going on one must put speed bumps into one's 
writing seems unnecessarily derogatory. It even seems unnecessary on 
the face of it, since prose allows us to paragraph at will. 

Even single phrases.

On 16 Feb 2005 at 7:46, Bob Grumman wrote:
> ... The line breaks
> also make it look like a poem on the page, so those who read it, will
> (or should) read it differently from the way they'd read prose.<

Once again, an entirely arbitrary notion, since meter also makes 
people read it "differently from the way they'd read prose". This is 
nothing "better" -- this is merely a different set of arbitrary 
rules. Merely different arbitrary rules cannot reasonably be held to 
be "better" or "progress".

Marcus


> Ed
> Louis Simpson
>
> Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress,
> but Ed's family, and his friends,
> didn't approve. So he broke it off.
> 
> He married a respectable woman
> who played the piano. She played well enough
> to have been a professional.
> 
> Ed's wife left him . . .
> Years later, at a family gathering
> Ed got drunk and made a fool of himself.
> 
> He said, "I should have married Doreen."
> "Well," they said, "why didn't you?"
> 
> -- Louis Simpson. *Collected Poems* (Paragon House)
> 
> 
>  Ed
> 
>  Ed was in love with a cocktail waitress, but Ed's family, and his
> friends,didn't approve. So he broke it off. He married a respectable
> woman who played the piano. She played well enough to have been a
> professional. Ed's wife left him Years later, at a family gathering Ed
> got drunk and made a fool of himself. He said, "I should have married
> Doreen." "Well," they said, "why didn't you?". -- 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 16 08:10:52 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:10:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <009001c51426$ae126100$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4213000C.22773.3F267D@localhost>

> >Go find language NOT "metered," not "metrical."
> 
On 16 Feb 2005 at 7:54, Bob Grumman wrote:
> This is the same kind of moronic logic that finds all poems to be
> political. Words are used to distinguish some X from some not-X.
> "Meter" is a word used to distinguish language that has a REGULAR beat
> for significant lengths of time from language that does not. Yes,
> jingles. To confuse it with "rhyrthm" makes no sense.

Here, at least, we can agree.

Prose has rhythm; poetry has meter. They are different things.

Marcus





From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Wed Feb 16 08:14:57 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:14:57 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <1108559697.42134751ef675@webmail.ukonline.net>



Pretty well all the New Formalist poems I've read have been bad, leaden poems, 
usually because the meter tho regular is lifeless. It's like someone after 
intensive physiotherapy taking their first shambling steps, very carefully, 
one foot after another, down to the car-park. 

But. 

EW's remarks betray exactly the same metrical illiteracy, though manifested in 
a different way. He thinks of meter as an archaic 
manifestation of the constructive, wordgaming, leftbrain impulse that leads to 
MacLow and Hejnian and so much else of the most exciting poetry around. But 
this is only a minor part of what meter is about, though it is one part. He 
totally ignores the communicative, expressive, sensuous functions of meter 
(that would be too "romantic") and thus has no way of distinguishing between a 
lifeless meter (as per most New Formalist poems) and a vivid meter (as per 
Yeats, Dickinson, Keats, Shakespeare..). The only criterion he can think of is 
tour-de-force pyrotechnics like difficult rhymes, which would lead to the 
absurd conclusion that metrical poetry is at its best in the light verse of 
W.S Gilbert or C.S. Calverley. 

- I do like EW's macho fantasy of Viking verse-making, though I deeply 
distrust the details.  

Gabriel Gudding's piece of literary history about Jonson and Donne is at best 
misleading. Jonson's verse is by no means so regular as his predecessors 
Daniel, Sidney, 
Spenser and Shakespeare. Donne took his stretching of meter from the satirical 
tradition and applied it (sometimes disastrously, but more often excitingly) 
to love poems. While it's possible to find analogies for Donne's innovations, 
it would be ridiculous not to see them (as Jonson testifies) as dramatically 
and confrontationally new. The pleasures of regular meter had been 
rediscovered in England some seventy years earlier, by Wyatt and Surrey. 
Regular meter means different things in different places and times, but it 
doesn't seem unreasonable to point out that Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Chretien, 
Dante, Wolfram and Chaucer, to name a few mildly significant European voices, 
all wrote in regular meters. I'd suggest that the potential of irregular meter 
could ONLY arise as derivative to a culture that understood and used regular 
meter but were no longer quite in sympathy with it. A literate and 
sophisticated set of circumstances. 

However, I do think the connection he makes between a certain kind of 
regularity and a certain kind of Bowdlerism is extremely interesting. Pope, 
I'd suggest, exploited this for shock value - like Swift, he has some very 
filthy lines. For prudery and dirty-mindedness rely on each other. Sterne ran 
the same joke to death in the Sentimental Journey, but it was the cornerstone 
of a masterpiece in Tristram Shandy. 

















Quoting Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>:

> "even though there are thousands of years acrosss thousands of languages"
> 
> In fact, you've got it backward. The obsession w/ rigidly regular "metrics" 
> is in fact the newer phenomenon -- starting mainly with Ben Jonson, the 
> most neoclassical of the English Renaissance writeres-- the dude who 
> prefigured what would become an Augustan orthodoxy-- and said of Donne that 
> he "deserved hanging" for his failure to "keep accents."  Pope even rewrote 
> Donne's second and fourth satires, calling Donne's numbers "rugged" and 
> "disgusting." Samuel Johnson was one among many who said during the 18th C 
> that the Metaphysicals wrote "rough" and "rugged" stuff that needed to be 
> smoothened and polished -- and removed, too (and this is key) its 
> "offensive" content when it was rewritten (which it inevitably was): Pope 
> completely removed all mention of excrement and shit from Donne's works 
> when he "revised" them. The idea of metrical irregularity became in fact a 
> way to prissify the content. You see the same thing even now -- a serious 
> prissification of content masked as "metrics."
> 
> then Bales wrote:
> > >even though there are thousands of years acrosss thousands of languages
> >of evidence that writing without meter has simply not been regarded, or
> >referred to, as "poetry". This is a new thing in the last hundred
> >years...
> >
> >
> >I blame it on the airplane, myself... And the electrification of the
> >countryside.
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> __________________
> Gabriel Gudding
> Department of English
> Illinois State University
> Normal, IL  61790
> office 309.438.5284
> gmguddi at ilstu.edu 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




----------------------------------------------
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 16 09:03:50 2005
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:03:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Was Formalism?
In-Reply-To: <s212546f.015@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <20050216140350.52433.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>

I have already shown in a post a few months ago how
slipshod and poorly written Weinberger's essay is.  He
seems to believe that flipping though *Rebel Angels*
and making snide comments about people with political
affliations that he doesn't like equals criticism. 
"What Was Formalism" is a failure and should have
remained in Weinberger's diary.

I do like his poem about the Bush administration,
however.

Jeff Newberry


--- Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

> Eliot Weinberger:  "What Was Formalism?" (By the
> way, Eliot Weinberger has recently published [in the
> London Review of Books and now on its website] what
> has already become perhaps the most widely read
> anaphoric poem [oh, dare I call it that?] of the
> last one hundred years. It goes on for about a
> hundred pages, too-- a litany of the lies of the
> Bush administration.) But here's the link to his
> hilarious and dismantling essay on the so-called New
> Formalism:
> 
> http://www.jacketmagazine.com/06/wein-form.html
> 
> (excerpt)
> ...I began to suspect that the vaunted strictures of
> the New Formalism were rather like the rules in a
> household with small children: tiny attempts at
> maintaining order, frequently reiterated, and rarely
> observed. Very few Rebel Angels attempted anything
> more difficult than a sonnet, and only a few even
> tried their hands at these. Many of the poems merely
> kept to regular stanza forms, without rhyme -- as
> countless "free verse" poems do. The rhymes
> themselves were astonishingly banal (brook/book,
> well/tell, park/dark, eye/sky, storm/warm, etc); not
> a one even approached the wit of popular song: Bob
> Dylan ("the pump don't work/ 'cause the vandals/
> took the handles") or Smokey Robinson or Moss Hart
> or Curtis Mayfield or John Lennon or nearly any song
> by Cole Porter ("Let's throw away anxiety, let's
> quite forget propriety,/ Respectable society, the
> rector and his piety,/ And contemplate l'amour in
> all its infinite variety,/ My dear, let's talk about
> love.").
>       And nearly every poem was written in three,
> four, or five feet of iambs. What is difficult, as
> Pound said at the beginning of the century, is not
> to write in iambs: "to break the HEAVE." After all,
> most of what we say in English is an unstressed
> monosyllabic personal pronoun or possessive or
> preposition or article followed by a stressed
> monosyllabic noun or verb (one iamb) or a disyllabic
> noun or verb stressed on its first syllable (one and
> a half iambs). Most polysyllabic words have
> alternating stresses. When one adds the permissible
> trochee at the beginning of the line, the
> permissible anapests anywhere, and all the other
> little infractions -- exceptions that are supposed
> to make the rule -- it may well be that the iamb is
> no more a formal quality than standard spelling. 
>       Add to this the facts that the division into
> strictly stressed and unstressed syllables is
> inappropriate to English, that a line may have many
> possible scansions according to how it is read
> ("Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?"), and
> that off-rhymes, some quite far-fetched, "count" in
> a rhyme-scheme, and we are left with a system of
> measurement as organic and untechnical as Williams'
> much-derided "variable foot" (which, by the way, is
> what English-language poets have always practiced).
> The only American formalists of the century may well
> turn out to be Louis Zukofsky, John Cage, and
> Jackson Mac Low, who invented their own,
> idiosyncratic and inflexible rules: placement of
> letters according to mathematical or mystical
> formulae, predetermined word lists and selection
> processes, and so on. 
>       I'm sorry, but these Rebel Angels are wimps,
> caf? Republicans measuring out their lives in coffee
> spoons that keep changing size. For real formalism,
> we must go to the Old Formalism, to the days when
> forms were forms and form had nothing to do with
> etiquette. We must go back, that is, to the Vikings:
>   Viking formalism meant, for example, that to write
> a mere epitaph of ordinary statements and sentiments
> for a tomb -- such as "Here lies a warrior famed for
> his virtue. Denmark will never know a more honorable
> sea-captain, or one stronger in battle" -- one began
> with a common stanza form, such as the dr?ttkvatt. 
>       This stanza form had eight lines, broken into
> two half-stanzas of four lines, each expressing a
> single thought, that were, in turn, divided into two
> couplets. Each line had six syllables; only three
> could be stressed (and Old Norse, as one can
> imagine, had genuine stresses). The first line of
> each couplet had to have two stressed syllables that
> began with the same sound, which was also the sound
> of the first stressed syllable in the next line.
> (The other stressed syllables could not be
> alliterate.) The two stressed alliterative syllables
> in the first line could not rhyme; but the first
> stressed alliterative syllable in the second line
> had to rhyme with another syllable in the same line
> to which it was not alliterative.
>       
> The word order was completely unlike that of prose.
> For example, the structure of a normal prose
> sentence of 16 words (taking 1, 2, 3, etc., as the
> words in their proper prose order) looks like this
> in a relatively simple half-stanza:
> 
>  
>  2    4    5    3
>  1    8    9    6    7
> 12   10   13   14
> 11   15   16   
>   
>  
>  In a more complex poem, poetic syntax is further
> stretched by fragmenting and reassembling the
> clauses. For example, back to the sea-captain and
> the first half-stanza. ("Here lies a warrior famed
> for his virtue . . . ") The poet employs a kenning,
> or epithet, for warrior ("the one who carried out
> the work of ?rudr, goddess of battles"), and the
> whole sentence reads literally: "Under this mound is
> hidden the one who carried out the work of ?rudr,
> goddess of battles, whom the greatest virtues
> accompanied; most men knew that." (Though the Old
> Norse only has 15 words.)
>       The poem (keeping the literal English prose
> syntax) breaks this into something like:
> 
>  
> 
>  
>  Under this mound     whom the greatest
> most men knew that     virtues
> accompanied     the one who carried out the work of
> ?rudr
> goddess of battles     is hidden
>  
>   
>  
>  The pattern of clauses is: 
>  
>  
>  1     3
>  4     3
>  3     2
>  2     1    
>  
> 
>  This was merely a tombstone epitaph, not a
> particularly memorable poem. It was written, as all
> poetry was, in a single line. (The ragged right-hand
> margin is a by-product of the availability of cheap
> paper.) There were no spaces between the words. The
> form of the poem was musically, not visually,
> evident -- and evident to all its readers or
> listeners -- and was only one of many such forms,
> most of them even more complex.
>       In a famous Icelandic story in the sagas,
> Hallbj?rn of ?ingvellir wanted to compose a poem in
> praise of a dead poet. He fell asleep on the poet's
> burial mound and dreamed that the mound opened, a
> tall man appeared, and said, "There you lie,
> Hallbj?rn of ?ingvellir, trying to do something you
> are incapable of doing -- composing a poem in praise
> of me." The dead poet then taught Hallbj?rn all the
> forms while he dreamed. They took many years to
> master, but in the end he wrote his poem.
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com 


From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 16 09:21:30 2005
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:21:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Western Reading Services
Message-ID: <20050216142130.55663.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com>

I got a contest announcement in my mailbox this
morning from *In Other Words*, an anthology published
by "Western Reading Services."

Before I announce this to my students, does anyone
know if this is a scam?  They're not asking for any
submission fees.  I looked at their website,
www.westernreading.com, but it's not much help.

Anybody know anything?



=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. 
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 16 10:28:17 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:28:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s213123c.032@mail.highland.edu>

>Kent Johnson is arguing here that abandoning meter is as significant a
forward step as flying and electrification.

Marcus, I would want to say that I did not mean this at all. I don't
see poetry as going "forward" in any sort of linear way. I was just
making a lighthearted reference to Lenin, that's all. 

But I would say this: Let's say we just let you and those who share
your formal predilections have final copyright of the word "Poetry." On
the "other side," those  who choose to not relegate their explorations
of form to traditional meters developed from, say, 13th century
Provencal to 18th century England go and find a new word or phrase for
the stuff they engage in, like "Satellite Poetics," or "Argonaut's
Underpants," or whatever. The term doesn't matter, and I can't quite
think of a good one now. But I'd be all for that, personally, even
though it would take some time for a second coinage to become common. 

So Presto! Because your argument is essentially about a *term* and who
gets to own it, you come out a winner. Civilized immigration treaties
get made, and you and your compatriots can still cross the frontier and
party inside the contingencies of value undfolding in the underpants of
the argonaut; the inhabitants of argonaut's underpants can still go on
over the border and have some libidinous fun on the proper and manicured
lawns of Land of Poetry. 

Like now, on this listserv.

Kent






From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Feb 16 10:43:13 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:43:13 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE987@URANIUM.ripon.college>


> > "Meter" is a word used to distinguish language that has a REGULAR beat
> > for significant lengths of time from language that does not. Yes,
> > jingles. To confuse it with "rhyrthm" makes no sense.
> 
> Here, at least, we can agree.
> 
> Prose has rhythm; poetry has meter. They are different things.
> 
> Marcus
--------------------------------------------------

True but incomplete, since poetry has rhythm, too.  Good luck *defining* rhythm exactly--it's sort of like "swing" in jazz--but luckily, just like swing it can be heard and understood without airtight definitions.  To my way of understanding, rhythm is a constellation of sound effects.  It includes as components such things as stress, duration, cadence, linebreaks, pauses, consonant texture, assonance, internal rhymes, and so forth.

Meter, then, can be understood as a range of ways in which various rhythms may be organized and made regular.  

In much English poetry the main building block is measured accent, of course, but  there are other meters. And, due to the fact of rhythm, no two lines in the same meter will be identical rhythmically.  That's where the fun begins, not just with the many metrical substitutions that have become conventional, but also with all the rest of the ways in which rhythm plays itself out in lines.

The free verse revolution recognized that there was plenty of fun to be had simply working with rhythms in verse, and dispensing with regular measure.  Nothing in that statement implies that meter is dead or that there aren't many good poems still to be written in C Major, so to speak.  Not to mention bad ones, as always. . . .

I like something that Bill Knott said in that interview from Bookslut that somebody posted a while back.  He said that he admired British poets because, more than most Americans, they felt free to try anything, formally, and nobody expected them to define & defend a limited aesthetic turf.  

I think Knott's downplaying the degree to which American poetry does just that--he'd probably resist knowing that someone like Dana Gioia pretty much agrees with him on that issue, for instance.  In any case, we have quite a few "omnists" among us on this side of the Atlantic, to use Barry Spacks's term.  But I agree with the sentiment.  The us-vs.-them mentality is extremely tedious no matter what form it takes.
============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================

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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 16 10:46:45 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:46:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s21316a6.059@mail.highland.edu>

That's a great post by M. Peverett, though I don't see Weinberger's
article really arguing anything more than what MP himself proposes in
the first paragraph of his post re: the vulgar, ho-hum quality of most
New Formalist verse. I am quite sure Weinberger has the highest regard
for Yeats, Dickinson, Keats, Shakespeare, et. al. And I don't understand
the suggestion (I could have misread) that EW links Mac Low to formal
constraint and thus undervalues him. Mac Low is one of the great
experimentalists Weinberger has championed--as essayist and editor. 

And it would be great to have an exchange between MP and Gabe Gudding
on the fascinating historical question regarding Ben Jonson, etc. 


From tad at opus40.org  Wed Feb 16 10:51:58 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:51:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s213123c.032@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <001701c5143f$74fbc780$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Love them lighthearted references to Lenin.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 10:28 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter


> >Kent Johnson is arguing here that abandoning meter is as significant a
> forward step as flying and electrification.
> 
> Marcus, I would want to say that I did not mean this at all. I don't
> see poetry as going "forward" in any sort of linear way. I was just
> making a lighthearted reference to Lenin, that's all. 
> 
> But I would say this: Let's say we just let you and those who share
> your formal predilections have final copyright of the word "Poetry." On
> the "other side," those  who choose to not relegate their explorations
> of form to traditional meters developed from, say, 13th century
> Provencal to 18th century England go and find a new word or phrase for
> the stuff they engage in, like "Satellite Poetics," or "Argonaut's
> Underpants," or whatever. The term doesn't matter, and I can't quite
> think of a good one now. But I'd be all for that, personally, even
> though it would take some time for a second coinage to become common. 
> 
> So Presto! Because your argument is essentially about a *term* and who
> gets to own it, you come out a winner. Civilized immigration treaties
> get made, and you and your compatriots can still cross the frontier and
> party inside the contingencies of value undfolding in the underpants of
> the argonaut; the inhabitants of argonaut's underpants can still go on
> over the border and have some libidinous fun on the proper and manicured
> lawns of Land of Poetry. 
> 
> Like now, on this listserv.
> 
> Kent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Feb 16 11:08:40 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:08:40 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <1ac.32200db3.2f44ca08@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/16/2005 9:44:55 AM Central Standard Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: 
> >"Meter" is a word used to distinguish language that has a REGULAR beat 
> >for significant lengths of time from language that does not. Yes, 
> >jingles. To confuse it with "rhyrthm" makes no sense. 
> 
> Here, at least, we can agree. 
> 
> Prose has rhythm; poetry has meter. They are different things. 
> 
> Marcus 
> 
> 
"Meter" does not have anything to do with "beats," though it may describe 
certain patterns of it; it denotes the manner by which the line is measured.  
"Rhythm" does denote a pattern of "beats," though some patterns are more regular 
than others.  Syllabic verse is metrical, but there isn't necessarily a 
stress-pattern in it.  I must once again iterate that "verse" and "prose" are 
opposite modes; "poetry" can be written in either verse (metrical or free) or prose. 
 This has nothing to do with such value-laden statements as "This isn't 
poetry"; it's simply a matter of distinguishing two different modes of 
writing--lineated and non-lineated.  Chopping up a prose paragraph into lines doesn't make 
a claim that it's poetry, but it certainly would be verse (though of a rather 
rudimentary type, I suspect).
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 16 11:24:52 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:24:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s2131f83.004@mail.highland.edu>

>Love them lighthearted references to Lenin.

Yet another example of my abject failure as an ironist...



From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 16 11:07:46 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:07:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s213123c.032@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42132982.4789.709029@localhost>

Marcus Bales wrote:
> >Kent Johnson is arguing here that abandoning meter is as > 
>significant a forward step as flying and electrification.

Kent Johnson wrote:
> Marcus, I would want to say that I did not mean this at all. I
> don't see poetry as going "forward" in any sort of linear way. I
> was just making a lighthearted reference to Lenin, that's all. <

So your rhetorical strategy is mere bullshit, then, Kent? You say 
what you think you can get away with and write off any challenge to 
what you say with "I was just joking"? 

And, yeah, that Lenin -- what a kidder! We can sure take anything he 
said as intended comically, light-heartedly, eh? And if we can't take 
Lenin lightly, what is to be done?

Kent Johnson wrote:
> ... those  who choose to not relegate their
> explorations of form to traditional meters developed from, say,
> 13th century Provencal to 18th century England ...<

Though the notion of what meter is may be different from language to 
language, and from time to time within any given language, the thing 
that humanity has used to separate poetry from prose has been meter. 
It seems that an explicit abandonment of meter is a claim that one 
wants to write prose. Why not just call it prose?

It seems to me that the reason not to call it prose is the cultural 
weight that calling it "poetry", or calling oneself "a poet", offers. 

The point is not to write poems but to be known as a poet. The claim 
that prose is poetry is merely a point d'appui from which to make a 
claim of social significance, of cultural weight, to one's 
controversy.

> ... The term doesn't matter, and I
> can't quite think of a good one now. But I'd be all for that,
> personally, even though it would take some time for a second
> coinage to become common. <

It's already common: it's called "prose".

Kent Johnson wrote:
> So Presto! Because your argument is essentially about a *term* ...<

The argument is about social significance and cultural weight. Poets 
have been accorded social significance and cultural weight other 
language artists haven't been, until recently. To be a poet was to be 
something different than to be an essayist or novelist or story 
writer. Now, of course, anyone who says they're a poet is a poet, and 
a sort of Gresham's Law of Poetry applies: the currency of the claim 
is undermined because the imitation drives out the genuine.

What the folks who wanted to "break the pentameter" believed, or said 
they believed, was that a new meter, a different meter, a more modern 
and contemporary meter would emere from the ruins. None did. All that 
happened was that the reading public abandoned the modernists and 
post-modernists on precisely the grounds that their prose wasn't 
poetry. 

The question is, if you're so willing to accept another term for what 
you do, why not accept the term of long-standing: prose?

Marcus




From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Feb 16 11:45:22 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:45:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose?
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE98A@URANIUM.ripon.college>


I Know a Man

As I sd to my
friend, because I am
always talking,--John, I

sd, which was not his
name, the darkness sur-
rounds us, what

can we do against
it, or else, shall we &
why not, buy a goddamn big car,

drive, he sd, for
christ's sake, look
out where yr going.

--Robert Creeley



============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Feb 16 12:09:02 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:09:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose?
Message-ID: <15a.4a873ece.2f44d82e@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/16/2005 10:48:10 AM Central Standard Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: 
> I Know a Man 
> 
> As I sd to my 
> friend, because I am 
> always talking,--John, I 
> 
> sd, which was not his 
> name, the darkness sur- 
> rounds us, what 
> 
> can we do against 
> it, or else, shall we &
> why not, buy a goddamn big car, 
> 
> drive, he sd, for 
> christ's sake, look 
> out where yr going. 
> 
> --Robert Creeley 
> 
> 
One of my favorites and not merely anecdotal, as the earlier Simpson poem of 
roughly the same length was.
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 16 12:33:05 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:33:05 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<1108559697.42134751ef675@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <037301c5144d$934f1d00$3b9f9951@Robin>

From: <m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk>

> Donne took his stretching of meter from the satirical
> tradition and applied it (sometimes disastrously, but more often
excitingly)
> to love poems. While it's possible to find analogies for Donne's
innovations,
> it would be ridiculous not to see them (as Jonson testifies) as
dramatically
> and confrontationally new.

Wasn't Jonson, though this isn't made clear in the original context of his
chatting to Drummond, when he said, "For not keeping of the accent, Donne
deserved hanging," referring (implicitly but specifically) to the Satires?

They're more extreme in their "wrenching" of metre than even "The Storm" and
"The Calm", and the Elegies, written in the same period of Donne's career.

The metre of the Songs and Sonets isn't as regular as some (but then neither
is Ralegh in "The Nymph's Reply" as regular Marlowe in "The Passionate
Shepherd," or even Donne in "The Bait") but it's not as extreme a divergence
from the iambic norm as Donne's (and others -- Marston, for instance)
satires.

Robin Hamilton




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 16 12:33:23 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:33:23 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin>

From: "Gabriel Gudding" <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>

> Samuel Johnson was one among many who said during the 18th C
> that the Metaphysicals wrote "rough" and "rugged" stuff that needed to be
> smoothened and polished -- and removed, too (and this is key) its
> "offensive" content when it was rewritten (which it inevitably was) ...

It's possibly worth remembering exactly what Johnson says in "The Life of
Cowley".

"The metaphysical poets were men of learning, and to show their learning was
their whole endeavour; but, unluckily resolving to show it in rhyme, instead
of writing poetry they only wrote verses, and very often such verses as
stood the trial of the finger better than of the ear; for the modulation was
so imperfect, that they were only found to be verses by counting the
syllables."

That's not quite the same as rough and rugged, more metronomic and
unrhythmic.

(Also Johnson doesn't mention either Herbert or Marvell, which might have
called his generalisation into question.)

Robin Hamilton




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 16 12:33:29 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:33:29 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s21316a6.059@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <037501c5144d$a149c1d0$3b9f9951@Robin>

Just to chuck some (I hope not entirely irrelevant) spanners into the works.

It was John Hollander (I think) who coined the term "metrical contract".

To simplify this (drastically) there's a case for saying that (at least to a
degree) whether or not we read poetry in metre depends on an agreement
between the writer and the reader.

(To test this, type out a passage of blank verse as prose and give this to
someone who doesn't know the passage to read aloud, and listen to the
result.)

Is the following prose or verse?  It's certainly *printed* as prose ...

"Not a whit, we defy augury: there's a special providence in the fall of a
sparrow. If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be
now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all: since no man
has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes?"

_Hamlet_, V.2

Robin Hamilton

Specifically as laid-out in Q2 and F -- it's not in Q1:

Q2

Not a whit, we defie augury, there is speciall prouidence, in
the fall of a Sparrowe, if it be, tis not to come, if it be not to come,
it will be now, if it be not now, yet it well come, the readines is all,
since no man of ought he leaues, knowes what ist to leaue betimes,
let be.

F

Not a whit, we defie Augury; there's a speciall
Prouidence in the fall of a sparrow. If it be now, 'tis not
to come: if it bee not to come, it will bee now: if it
be not now; yet it will come; the readinesse is all, since no
man ha's ought of what he leaues. What is't to leaue be-
times?






From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Feb 16 13:38:53 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:38:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <1108559697.42134751ef675@webmail.ukonline.net>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<1108559697.42134751ef675@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216122612.0317c7d8@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 07:14 AM 2/16/2005, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote:
>Gabriel Gudding's piece of literary history about Jonson and Donne is at best
>misleading. Jonson's verse is by no means so regular as his predecessors
>Daniel, Sidney,
>Spenser and Shakespeare.

Misleading how? The Hx I presented did not deal with Jonson's own verse but 
his conceptions, animus and vitriol against the verse of others.

And if you're calling Th Wyatt's verse "regular meter," I'd kinda have to 
throw the same accusation back at you: if this is a main contention of yr 
historcal sketch, i'd have to say it's not only misleading but totally, 
well, WRONG. Wyatt was ridiculed often and soundly for his wild, misshapen 
lines.

"I'd suggest that the potential of irregular meter
could ONLY arise as derivative this of a culture that understood and used 
regular
meter but were no longer quite in sympathy with it. A literate and
sophisticated set of circumstances."

This is interesting but again misses the centuries of clashing stresses and 
irregular metrics in the English(es) prior to (that is to say PRECEDING, as 
in coming before, as in first for a long time) Chaucer -- which is why I 
mention his contemporary Wm Langland's Piers Plowman (see Andy Galloway's 
scholarship which marks the transition well).

>"However, I do think the connection he makes between a certain kind of
>regularity and a certain kind of Bowdlerism is extremely interesting."

I'm with you here. This is actually probably the most common, I feel, 
ulterior cultural project of the metricentrists -- one noted again and 
again by scholars from the Augustan age to the current one (and most 
notably in the last decade in the scholarship of Jed Rasula -- see THE 
AMERICAN POETRY WAX MUSEUM: REALITY EFFECTS, 1940-1990).

Nice exchange. What's your name? -g

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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Feb 16 13:57:41 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:57:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu>

Then Robin said, "That's not quite the same as rough and rugged, more 
metronomic and
unrhythmic."

Robin, though the passage you quote is in fact the most cited passage by 
Johnson on the matter, it doesn't of course by any means exhaust his 
thought on the subject, and in fact he, Johnson, runs his bark on "rugged" 
and "rough" a good bit as descriptors of poets he's problems with -- 
leastways doing so a little often elsewhere in THE LIVES OF THE POETS, 
where he says such further stuff as

"This kind of writing, which was, I believe, borrowed from Marino and his
followers, had been recommended by the example of Donne, a man of very
extensive and various knowledge; and by Jonson, whose manner resembled
that of Donne more in the ruggedness of his lines than in the cast of
his sentiments."

The which I get from Project Gutenberg. Wonder why he doesn't mention 
Marvell and Herbert in his LIVES. Anyone know?

g.
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 16 14:03:13 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:03:13 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu><1108559697.42134751ef675@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216122612.0317c7d8@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <03d001c5145a$2a8ad180$3b9f9951@Robin>

From: Gabriel Gudding

<<
And if you're calling Th Wyatt's verse "regular meter," I'd kinda have to
throw the same accusation back at you: if this is a main contention of yr
historcal sketch, i'd have to say it's not only misleading but totally,
well, WRONG. Wyatt was ridiculed often and soundly for his wild, misshapen
lines.
>>

Who by?  Certainly not by Puttenham in +The Art of English Poetry+, or
earlier by Surrey (who was a more regular metricist than Wyatt) in his two
verse elegies on Wyatt.

Wyatt the Metrical Irregular seems pretty-much a late 19thC / early 20thC
phenomenon.

This is, of course, complicated by Wyatt only being known between 1555 and
the late 19thC, when a text of his was first printed from the Egerton MS,
via the egregious editorial smoothing by Nicolas Grimald in +Tottel's
Miscellany+.

<<
"I'd suggest that the potential of irregular meter
could ONLY arise as derivative this of a culture that understood and used
regular
meter but were no longer quite in sympathy with it. A literate and
sophisticated set of circumstances."

This is interesting but again misses the centuries of clashing stresses and
irregular metrics in the English(es) prior to (that is to say PRECEDING, as
in coming before, as in first for a long time) Chaucer -- which is why I
mention his contemporary Wm Langland's Piers Plowman (see Andy Galloway's
scholarship which marks the transition well).
>>

Um.  "clashing stresses and irregular metrics" seems a little eccentric as
(if it is <g>) a description of the alliterative metre, whether of Beowulf
or, later, Langland and the Gawain poet.

Incidentally, Chaucer wasn't the first to use syllable accent metre in
English -- +The Owl and the Nightingale+ was written in the 13thC in rhyming
iambic octosyllabic couplets.

Robin Hamilton




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 16 14:21:34 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:21:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s21348e4.050@mail.highland.edu>

Marcus Bales said:

>What the folks who wanted to "break the pentameter" believed, or said

they believed, was that a new meter, a different meter, a more modern 
and contemporary meter would emere from the ruins. None did. All that 
happened was that the reading public abandoned the modernists and 
post-modernists on precisely the grounds that their prose wasn't 
poetry.


Why "a" meter? I don't think any of the great modernists were after "a"
meter (and even if they were, why quit after only one hundred years, as
you have it?). But they *were* interested in exploring sound. There are
ways and means of doing that beyond conforming one's lines to regular
feet. The musical phrase instead of the metronome is how Pound (one of
the most learned prosodists of all time) had it and as Whitman had
concurred in anticipation. But the musical phrase hardly means one
should discard pattern and recurrence or even the strategic use of
traditional meters... I hope you don't think that's what we
non-card-carrying New Formalists think! I think meter is a lovely thing,
myself, loveliest when historically organic, like in the Renaissance--
but usually (not always) forced and silly when imposed for reasons of
fundamentalist ideology (though traditional forms can always be
explored, torqued, changed-- and in contemporary times this, for me
tends to be their most exciting use: a sestina by an Ashbery, for
example, etc.) 
 
And, incidentally, isn't the reasoning in that last sentence of yours
above, Marcus, a little, well, circular? 

>The question is, if you're so willing to accept another term for what

you do, why not accept the term of long-standing: prose?

Well, just "Prose" wouldn't really do, since prose is a many splendored
thing, as I am sure you know. We must try to be more precise, with an
adjective or two.



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 16 14:25:02 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:25:02 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu><037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin>

<<
Robin, though the passage you quote is in fact the most cited passage by
Johnson on the matter, it doesn't of course by any means exhaust his thought
on the subject, and in fact he, Johnson, runs his bark on "rugged" and
"rough" a good bit as descriptors of poets he's problems with -- leastways
doing so a little often elsewhere in THE LIVES OF THE POETS, where he says
such further stuff as

"
This kind of writing, which was, I believe, borrowed from
Marino and his
followers, had been recommended by the example of Donne, a man of very
extensive and various knowledge; and by Jonson, whose manner resembled
that of Donne more in the ruggedness of his lines than in the cast
of
his sentiments."
>>

OK, point taken, Gabe.

Though if Johnson sees Jonson as rugged (like Donne) ... hm?

The major thrust of Johnson's ciriticism of the metaphysicals is more to do
with their imagery than their metre, as I remember it.

<<
The which I get from Project Gutenberg.
>>

That's where I did a quick rip for my own quote.  It did occur to me that I
ought to read the whole through again, but I was being lazy, and my physical
texts were downstairs.

<<
Wonder why he doesn't mention Marvell and Herbert in his LIVES. Anyone know?
>>

Off the top of my head, two possible reasons.

One is that Johnson was working to a remit whereby he could only write lives
of those poets who were being published by a consortium of London
booksellers (which is why he sneaks his comments on Donne and the
metaphysicals into the Cowley Life).

The other might be the availability of texts -- Marvell's +Miscellaneous
Poems+ was published in 1681, with no second edition -- I don't know when he
was finally republished -- in the 19thC?  By then, if not before.

If Johnson thought of Marvell at all, it would have been as a politician
primarily, and secondarily as a prose satirist.

George Herbert's +Remains+ were published in 1652, and again, no second
edition.

In contrast, Donne's poems were first printed in 1633, and reprinted in1635,
1639, 1649, 1650, 1654, 1669 and 1719, so while he might not have been to
Johnson's taste (or indeed, to that of any 18thC ear) he was *much* more
available.

Robin




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Wed Feb 16 14:39:00 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:39:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism by others
In-Reply-To: <000901c5137f$bd1fa830$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <BE34DE59.F775%grahamd@ripon.edu> <4211AA59.28462.37A391@localhost>
	<5689427.1108475547221.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1496412.1108476262771.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<000901c5137f$bd1fa830$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0502161429430.3948@shell2.oit.umass.edu>

Thank you for this juicy posting on Puccini.  I am happy to read the
notion that we are hard-wired for progress in a way that doesn't
necessarrily produce good art - that answers some questions for me.

I feel compelled to speak up for Puccini - his are the only operas I
really love, and I have been exposed even briefly to a fair amount.  I
never really know quite what is going on, nor what the words mean,
(Except for Turandot, the chorus of which I
sang with Connecticut Opera some hundred and ten years ago...) yet
have spent many happy hours weeping behind the wheel of my car, etc. to
the music itself - which fairly predicatbly by now peels me right open
with all those mock-Asian fourths and fifths.
To me the music is about vulnerability, an oppenness of heart, a poignance.  A
possibility.  A bringing forth of our fragility in a way that is
liberating - we get to pull it out and briefly acknowledge it before
suiting up the armor again. As for the plots, well...i wonder if it isn't
an illumination
of what we  ALL most fear as acted out upon the feminine.  And the sadness
gives a voice to our personal sorrows - men and women alike.


Dunno.  I am not an academic, can't call on lots of theory.  I am not for
shoving any masogynism under the carpet either...
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, The Old Mole wrote:

>
>
> Taruskin begins his discussion of Puccini by noting that even as snobby academics "heap critical invective" upon the composer's music, regular folk pour into opera houses to hear it. What interests Taruskin is not who is "right" (a fool's game, surely). It's what lies behind the snobbery - namely, the notion that progress equals merit in art. This idea, hard-wired into most of our brains, turns out to be yet another intellectual leftover from those pesky 19th-century German romantics.
>
> But don't get too comfortable, Puccini lovers! The title of this particular sub-chapter is "Truth or Sadism": when he writes about the composer's operas, Taruskin raises the question of all those doomed heroines. "Has Puccini's enduring popularity," Taruskin asks, "been due to his skill in administering sadistic gratification [through music]? If so, then shall we place the blame on Puccini, or on the ones who have made him popular, namely, ourselves? Is an art that caters to bad instinct bad art? Does such catering promote social evil or (by giving our evil fantasies an acceptable outlet) social good?"
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/magnumopus.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
>

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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 16 14:36:03 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:36:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism by others
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0502161429430.3948@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEJNKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


{    To me the music is about vulnerability, an oppenness of heart, a poignance. 

Shouldn't the ninth word here begin with a cap?

Hal           "For me the Internet . . . is like the Congo.
                 I know it exists, but I will never go there."
                                  --Harold Bloom
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Feb 16 15:43:00 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:43:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <03d001c5145a$2a8ad180$3b9f9951@Robin>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<1108559697.42134751ef675@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216122612.0317c7d8@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<03d001c5145a$2a8ad180$3b9f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216132002.03177aa0@mail.ilstu.edu>

then Gabriel said:
><<Wyatt was ridiculed often and soundly for his wild, misshapen
>lines.>>

Then Robin said:
><<Who by?  Certainly not by Puttenham in +The Art of English Poetry+, or
>earlier by Surrey (who was a more regular metricist than Wyatt) in his two
>verse elegies on Wyatt.>>

Robin, by lots of folks. It's a commonplace of literary history. Here: I 
just opened up my Harvard UP Kenneth Muir edition of Wyatt and read this 
from page xvii, "Wyatt's, on the other hand, seemed to be harsh, clumsy, 
and unmusical. The eighteenth century [the one we're talking about, babies] 
naturally found more to admire in Surrey than in Wyatt and as late as 1816 
a critic could pronounce emphatically that Wyatt was not a poet at all."

><<Um.  "clashing stresses and irregular metrics" seems a little eccentric as
>(if it is <g>) a description of the alliterative metre, whether of Beowulf
>or, later, Langland and the Gawain poet.>>

Robin, the term "clashing stresses" isn't mine, though I would like to say 
it was. It's a term used by medieval scholar C B McCully. Check out 
_English Historical Metrics_ (Cambridge UP, 1996).

As for the Pearl poet: his work is stuffed with "mismetered" lines and 
clashing stresses -- and unless you're going to attribute them all to the 
work of copyists, you can't make him fit into the metricentricist's box 
either.

best,
g.



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Feb 16 15:55:19 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:55:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 01:25 PM 2/16/2005, Robin Hamilton wrote:
<<Wonder why he doesn't mention Marvell and Herbert in his LIVES. Anyone know?
> >>
>
>Off the top of my head, two possible reasons.
>
>One is that Johnson was working to a remit whereby he could only write lives
>of those poets who were being published by a consortium of London
>booksellers (which is why he sneaks his comments on Donne and the
>metaphysicals into the Cowley Life).
>
>The other might be the availability of texts -- Marvell's +Miscellaneous
>Poems+ was published in 1681, with no second edition -- I don't know when he
>was finally republished -- in the 19thC?  By then, if not before.
>
>If Johnson thought of Marvell at all, it would have been as a politician
>primarily, and secondarily as a prose satirist.
>
>George Herbert's +Remains+ were published in 1652, and again, no second
>edition.
>
>In contrast, Donne's poems were first printed in 1633, and reprinted in1635,
>1639, 1649, 1650, 1654, 1669 and 1719, so while he might not have been to
>Johnson's taste (or indeed, to that of any 18thC ear) he was *much* more
>available.>>


Brilliant take, Robin. I like this. I mean, he writes Apr 13, 1781 
"Sometimes in March I finished the Lives of the Poets, which I wrote in my 
usual way, dilatorily and hastily, unwilling to work, and working with 
vigour and haste." I wonder, admission of laziness notwithstanding, if part 
of this was also class based -- and I'm totally in the dark here but just 
to surmise: cd it be that there was some animus toward Marvell for his 
political positioning and sometime success thereat -- and toward Donne for 
his obvious literary successes -- and toward Herbert for his being a priest 
at Salisbury Cathedral? I don't know. Great guesses tho.g



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Feb 16 15:57:31 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:57:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu>
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great guess on yr part, that is. g 
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From lesrho at fullnet.net  Wed Feb 16 16:18:06 2005
From: lesrho at fullnet.net (LesRho)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:18:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Don't Be Afraid of Death 
Message-ID: <002301c5146d$0ef97f30$6419e2d8@retiredud69srz>

                     Dying's Not So Bad

Being afraid of dying can be for us ,real;
If we dwell on that someday when we
Won't be hearing such as the bell's peal
And we find that there is nowhere to flee

Most stresses and strains take a big toll
Exacting their weariness on us as pain
As anxiety it creeps in  to ruin our soul
Just to keep it in check is a big strain

Thinking fearfully of our own final day
Can cause us enormous useless fear
Reality of it all is that's not the best way
To live our own death, when we're not here

We can experience the death of another
By sitting by their bedside to talk or to pray
We dare not tell them that death is no bother
Since it's not ours; this is their's not our Day 

Can we can face death and always be brave
What's the use trying not to act how we feel
As long as it's someone else going to the grave
We just try to hang on for one more day to steal


Les Easley SFO
A Franciscan Poet
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From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Wed Feb 16 17:46:06 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:46:06 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
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	<037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin>
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Message-ID: <1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>

Gabriel -

Sorry, my name is Michael. I ought to sign off properly. I forget it isn't 
apparent from my email address.

I agree with most of what others have said, on all sides. Notably with Kent on 
Pound and Ashbery. But actually I see a big divide between them. Pound was 
indeed a prosodist and wrote against what we might call a classical metrical 
background, as Eliot did - he deliberately set off on new adventures in sound. 
Ashbery, I feel, reflects something else - a new way of hearing that is 
relatively insensitive to meter. (Personally I find Ashbery much the more 
exciting poet, by the way.) But though "It was raining in the capital" is a 
great poem deliberately written in slipshod and tone-deaf meter, and though 
Ashbery manifests his radical modernity in recognizing no use for meter but 
parody, I've read nothing by Ashbery to suggest that he could actually "hear" 
(let alone reproduce) the metrical sublimity of e.g. Yeats' Byzantium or 
Pound's own pseudo-medieval lyrics. It is an art that is really irrelevant to 
him - all he sees is that meter now means something sub-artistic, principally 
the kitsch craft of Ella Wheeler Wilcox &c. I'm willing to be proved wrong, and 
this is not a criticism. To have a truly modern sensibility (or what was modern 
in 1955) must necessarily involve sacrifice of old understandings to make room 
for the new.        

Re: Johnson's lives. The poets were not chosen by Johnson but by the 
publishers. They evidently decided to go back no further than Cowley and 
Milton, with the emphasis on their late 17thc work. That would automatically 
exclude Herbert as well as all the Marvell that we now value. Johnson's only 
deviation from the programme was to insist on adding some miniscule eighteenth-
century poets because of their piety.

Re: Wyatt. I concur with Robin, I don't know of any contemporary comment that 
noted the roughness of his meter. In its historical context, he was a pioneer 
of regularity by contrast with the era of Skelton, Hawes and Barclay. It was 
Wyatt's invention of the inanely metronomic Poulter's measure (fourteeners and 
Alexandrines) that impressed his contemporaries. His deviations from the 
iambic "norm" were not noticed because at the time (in England, not e.g. in 
Scotland) there was no such norm - he was painfully reinventing it.

Re: Donne. I bow to Robin's knowledge - the Songs and Sonets were not published 
when Jonson was having his rant. I had not particularly thought that he was 
referring to Donne's Satires, though, since unmetricality was a recognized 
(therefore uncontroversial) aspect of this tradition. I had thought he must be 
referring to poems where the accent, in his view, Ought to have been kept. Is 
there any evidence of what poems by Donne he was particularly aware of? Perhaps 
the Storm and the Calm were Donne's best-known poems at the time; but I would 
like to think that when he called Donne "the first poet in the world, in some 
things", he had read The Sonne Rising, Nocturnall on S Lucies Day, etc. - and 
who could disagree with him?  

Re: English medieval meters. A big subject - I agree largely with Robin. Anglo-
Saxon meter was classically strict, tho very different from anything that came 
later (a little like EW's Viking verses, in fact). Under the weight of 
conquests by Scandinavian and French speakers, dramatic changes in the 
language, the sense of this was lost. So little English was written down that 
it's hard to tell what was going on in the early middle ages. Layamon's Brut 
(12th c) is metrically chaotic. In the 14th century, as if out of nowehere, we 
find alliterative poems, sophisticated and metrical - but a slacker, more 
garrulous measure than the Anglo-Saxon. Meanwhile French influence (syllabic 
measure) leads to a new thing, the "iambic" measure of the anomalous Owl, much 
later Chaucer and Gower. This combines the native accentual element with strict 
syllable counting on the French model. After Gower's death, from approximately 
1400-1540 a strange period ensues when poets write a kind of verse that vaguely 
looks like Chaucer (e.g. it's in rhyming couplets) but which cannot be read 
iambically. It seems that the rhythms of the alliterative tradition, which are 
so antipathetic to the iambic pentameter, are 
producing a kind of disruptive cross-infection. It's a very difficult, perhaps 
impossible, challenge for us to read Lydgate or Hawes and to hear their meter  
as they must have heard it themselves. To us, it merely looks irregular, but 
this is ahistorical 
because we are hearing it against a background of later verse. It may have 
really been a breakdown similar to today's - good poets actually could not hear 
meter clearly, they were hearing something else. (This does not happen in 
Scotland at all.) After Wyatt and Surrey re-established the iambic meter, some 
people retained a taste for the earlier poetry, which to them was virtually 
unmetrical poetry since they had no idea what it was really meant to sound 
like. Spenser, e.g., wrote rough couplets in some of the poems 
in the Shepheardes Calender. It came to be associated with satire via a false 
etymology with "satyros", rough or shaggy. Thus there is a tenuous descent to 
Donne...  But the point I wanted to make was that no-one in the middle ages was 
deliberately writing unmetrical poetry - it was only when everyone felt iambic 
regularity in their very bones that Donne and Marston were able to explore the 
advanced aesthetic possibilities of stretching it beyond the limit. That's what 
I meant by calling it derivative. 

But I suppose I'm suggesting that while that sophisticated post-regular 
approach has analogies with Pound, with Ashbery and his generation 
we're really moving into a totally different ballgame - not a search for new 
meters but poetry that is through with meter altogether, though not of course 
with organization or patterns in sound. One small strand of that is the 
influence of non-metrical poetries of the past, e.g. the ancient Semitic form 
found in the Psalms, variously filtered through Whitman or Ginsberg and surely 
a background influence on EW's poem of things that he heard about 
Iraq.               




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From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 16 17:47:06 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:47:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
In-Reply-To: <1ac.32200db3.2f44ca08@cs.com>
Message-ID: <4213871A.23572.59534@localhost>

> >"Meter" is a word used to distinguish language that has a REGULAR
> >  beat for significant lengths of time from language that does not.
> > Yes, jingles. To confuse it with "rhyrthm" makes no sense. 
> 
Marcus Bales wrote:
>     Here, at least, we can agree. 
>     Prose has rhythm; poetry has meter. They are different things. 
> 
Sam Gwynn wrote:
> "Meter" does not have anything to do with "beats," though it may
> describe certain patterns of it; it denotes the manner by which the
> line is measured.<

Just so. I interpreted his "REGULAR" to mean "a pattern"; I think 
that's what he meant by it.

Sam Gwynn wrote:
> "Rhythm" does denote a pattern of "beats," though
> some patterns are more regular than others.<

I think I may agree with this, so long as "rhythm" can be 
distinguished from "meter" in your view.

> Syllabic verse is
> metrical, but there isn't necessarily a stress-pattern in it.<

Just so. Part of my assertion that poetry differs from prose by the 
presence of meter in poetry and the absence of it in prose depends on 
this kind of difference in what "meter" means.

Sam Gwynn wrote:
> I must
> once again iterate that "verse" and "prose" are opposite modes;
> "poetry" can be written in either verse (metrical or free) or prose.
> This has nothing to do with such value-laden statements as "This isn't
> poetry"; it's simply a matter of distinguishing two different modes of
> writing--lineated and non-lineated.<

Here, though, I think your attempt to avoid the value-laden lands you 
squarely in the value-laden soup. What you've done here is make 
"poetry" the value-laden term explicitly: it's the really good stuff, 
a term you use to describe the best of either verse or prose in your 
view. You're explicitly making "poetry" a value-laden term, and, 
thus, it's simply wrong to say that your definition "has nothing to 
do with such value-laden statements as 'This isn't poetry'" -- in 
fact the way you define the term ensures that it has everything to do 
with a value-laden statement such as 'This isn't poetry' precisely 
because your very definition ladens the term "poetry" with value.

> Chopping up a prose paragraph into
> lines doesn't make a claim that it's poetry, but it certainly would be
> verse (though of a rather rudimentary type, I suspect). <

This doesn't make sense within your scheme of distinguishing verse 
from prose because as soon as you say that prose may be poetry, you 
can make no such general claim as this. That unnamed unquoted "prose 
paragraph" may well actually be poetry in your scheme, whether it is 
in its paragraph prose form or its chopped up lines form, may it not? 
Certainly nothing in the description "prose paragraph" prevents it 
from being "poetry" in your view, once you've declared that a piece 
of writing may be "poetry" without reference to whether it is 
presented to the reader as prose or as verse. In your scheme it is 
simply unwarranted to make any claims whatever for whether any 
example of prose or verse is poetry or not once you've declared that 
poetry has nothing to do with whether a piece of writing is verse or 
prose. 

In fact, once you declare that a prose paragraph chopped up into 
lines is in fact "verse" (of however rudimentary a type), you've also 
abandoned any meaningful distinction between "prose" and "verse", 
since you allow explicitly that they are the same by saying that one 
is transmutable into the other by means of nothing other than adding 
or taking out line breaks.

What your scheme seems to be really is a distinction between "prose 
and verse" on the one hand and "poetry" on the other. There's all 
that mass of writing that may be made into verse or prose equally 
well irrespective of any other considerations by simply lineating or 
unlineating it, some of which may be "poetry" depending on ... 
depending on what? 

That's the problem: the distinctions you're trying to make aren't 
helpful. In fact, by making "poetry" the value-laden term you've 
simply illustrated my point: that the central dispute is really the 
social significance and cultural weight of being able to claim that 
one is "a poet", that one's writing is "poetry".

The more amorphous the definition of "poetry", the more value-laden a 
term you declare it to be, the more important it becomes to claim 
that one is a poet, that one's writing is poetry. The virtue of my 
distinction between "poetry is writing in meter" and "prose is 
writing not in meter" is that it explicitly removes the value-laden-
ness of the term "poetry" by making it a descriptive term rather than 
a value term. After that distinction is made, then the next questions 
are "Is it good poetry?" and "Is it good prose?", and the value-laden 
discussions are held with value terms such as "good" and "bad" and 
"indifferent" instead of with terms such as "You're not a poet" and 
"This is not poetry".

Marcus




From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Feb 16 18:24:12 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:24:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216171856.0317aaf8@mail.ilstu.edu>

Michael,

Just a quick acknowledgement of yr post before I run off to teach a night 
class: Thanks for such an informative response. Still trying to wrestle it 
all onto my plate. More later.

Gabe



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 16 18:41:37 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:41:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s21385f6.037@mail.highland.edu>

The discussions by Gabe, Robin, and Michael are great examples of lists
at their most useful, seems to me. 

(Gabe, on that poem, have you been reading Wilmot? That guy was
obscene! But what an obscenely lovely writer.)

Question for Michael, regarding Ashbery and other writers in his vein:
Could we say that a poet like Ashbery radically shifts prosody, as it
were, into semantics? That in his work there is a kind of "quantitative
patterning" of meaning at play, where ideation (the relational,
non-narrative movement and coupling of packets of sense) can be taken as
a manner of music and measure? Not that we have a way of scanning
something like that, if the notion should even be viable (and not that
Ashbery has some kind of prosodic system in mind!). But though I do
think Ashbery can make great and surprising *sound* sometimes, this is
where I "see" Ashbery's major prosody: at higher levels of semantic tone
and color, where ebbs and flows, darknesses and luminosities of sense
and information are patterned in delightfully novel, pleasurable, and
sometimes discomfiting ways. This would come out of Mallarme, I guess,
if so... But what about the idea that Ashbery is going after layers of
*structure* that float above the strictly sonic vectors of the poem?

Kent

  


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 16 18:46:29 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:46:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE987@URANIUM.ripon.college>
Message-ID: <01aa01c51482$7e61a680$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Omnism/ rhythm & meterThe us-vs.-them mentality is extremely tedious no matter what form it takes.

Sure, but what if the us keeps the them (almost entirely) out of the mainstream anthologies, out of widely-circulated criticism, out of the classroom and ignored by the grants-bestowers?  What kind of mentality are the them supposed to adopt?  I mean, after ten or twenty years of trying politely to call the attention of the us to what they're doing?  The establishment always feels the us-vs-them mentality is tedious.

--Bob G.
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Feb 16 19:01:39 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:01:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE98E@URANIUM.ripon.college>

> ----------
> The us-vs.-them mentality is extremely tedious no matter what form it takes.
>  
> Sure, but what if the us keeps the them (almost entirely) out of the mainstream anthologies, out of widely-circulated criticism, out of the classroom and ignored by the grants-bestowers?  What kind of mentality are the them supposed to adopt?  I mean, after ten or twenty years of trying politely to call the attention of the us to what they're doing?  The establishment always feels the us-vs-them mentality is tedious.
>  
> --Bob G
--------------------------

I dunno, Bob.  If I ever get the ear of a member of this Establishment, I'll be sure to ask.  

As for getting certain kinds of poetry into the anthologies, I guess it's the old story:  you have to persuade editors and readers that it's good poetry, will sell books, will work well in a classroom, is worthy of critical attention, etc.  Go ahead and persuade away, I say, and be sure to keep us informed of your progress.

Failing that, you wait for posterity to recognize your neglected genius.  I know that's been my strategy for years. . . .
============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> .
> 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 16 19:06:25 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:06:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu> <4212F9EA.25258.27352A@localhost>
Message-ID: <021101c51484$85a181c0$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Marcus Bales wrote:
>> > Just so.
>> > My question is why people want to call such anecdotes "poems",
>> > except for the honor of it, as it were.

Me:

>> Most people call it a poem because most people call it a poem.<
>
> So it's the "Forty Thousand Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" argument, at
> last, is it? Ad populum is the best you can do?

No.  It is "Most people call it a poem because most people call it a poem." 
I didn't say they were right to do so.

> On 16 Feb 2005 at 7:46, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> ... It is not prose because of its line breaks.<
>
> This is just as arbitrary as saying "It is not prose because of its 
> meter". There is no good reason that "line breaks" is a better criteria 
> for deciding what's poetry and what's prose than "meter".
SNIP

Some people call texts like Simpson's poetry because they believe that texts 
with line breaks are poems.

> On 16 Feb 2005 at 7:46, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> Rendering it as prose costs it the
>> ability to slow the reader and to emphasize images or ideas<
>
> The idea that the reader is so stupid that in order to get him or her
> to understand what is going on one must put speed bumps into one's
> writing seems unnecessarily derogatory. It even seems unnecessary on
> the face of it, since prose allows us to paragraph at will.

What paragraphs end or start in the middle of sentences?

> Even single phrases.
>
> On 16 Feb 2005 at 7:46, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> ... The line breaks
>> also make it look like a poem on the page, so those who read it, will
>> (or should) read it differently from the way they'd read prose.<

> Once again, an entirely arbitrary notion, since meter also makes
> people read it "differently from the way they'd read prose". This is
> nothing "better" -- this is merely a different set of arbitrary
> rules. Merely different arbitrary rules cannot reasonably be held to
> be "better" or "progress".

Yes, the lineation produced by meter will make people read metric texts 
differently from the way they read prose.  The lineation of free verse will 
do the same thing.  This is an argument for calling the latter the same kind 
of text as the former.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 16 19:17:39 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:17:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s213123c.032@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <022001c51486$174f66e0$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> >Kent Johnson is arguing here that abandoning meter is as significant a
> forward step as flying and electrification.
>
> Marcus, I would want to say that I did not mean this at all.

But freeing the art from the NECESSITY of metrical regimentation WAS as 
significant a forward step as flying and electrification.  It didn't mean 
people could no longer write metrically, but added something else they could 
do.  Something that could allow them to express themselves in ways 
impossible in formal verse and prose.  It also was a first step toward 
(modern) visual poetry, which is practically a whole new art.  A first step 
toward language poetry, too.  Again, not better than conventional art, but 
an extra way to make art.  Like giving a painter with only primary colors on 
his palette (and no way to mix them) greys AS WELL.  And then a number of 
other hues, as well.

I think those who argue against free verse are simply blind and deaf to the 
possibilities of lineation.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 16 19:38:53 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:38:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu><037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu><03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <02a601c51489$0ecdca90$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Just out of curiosity, what book is considered authoritative on what meter 
is?  I considered it a very damaged term since it's so easy to say any text 
is metrical.  Also, is there a good history of meter around?

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 16 19:45:00 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:45:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <4213871A.23572.59534@localhost>
Message-ID: <02ab01c51489$e9a7cad0$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> >"Meter" is a word used to distinguish language that has a REGULAR
>> >  beat for significant lengths of time from language that does not.
>> > Yes, jingles. To confuse it with "rhyrthm" makes no sense.
>>
> Marcus Bales wrote:
>>     Here, at least, we can agree.
>>     Prose has rhythm; poetry has meter. They are different things.
>>
> Sam Gwynn wrote:
>> "Meter" does not have anything to do with "beats," though it may
>> describe certain patterns of it; it denotes the manner by which the
>> line is measured.<

> Just so. I interpreted his "REGULAR" to mean "a pattern"; I think
> that's what he meant by it.

Yes.  I said "significant lengths of time."  That means pattern to me. 
Repeat something long enough is how tomake a pattern.  I'm sure all you 
formalists will shoot me for saying it, but I consider "accent," "beat" and 
"stress" all the same thing.  While opinionating, I'll add that I think 
regular beats or stresses entirely different from syllable or stress 
counting--more different from regular beats than free verse is from syllable 
or stress counting.

--Bob G.
> Sam Gwynn wrote:
>> "Rhythm" does denote a pattern of "beats," though
>> some patterns are more regular than others.<
>
> I think I may agree with this, so long as "rhythm" can be
> distinguished from "meter" in your view.
>
>> Syllabic verse is
>> metrical, but there isn't necessarily a stress-pattern in it.<
>
> Just so. Part of my assertion that poetry differs from prose by the
> presence of meter in poetry and the absence of it in prose depends on
> this kind of difference in what "meter" means.
>
> Sam Gwynn wrote:
>> I must
>> once again iterate that "verse" and "prose" are opposite modes;
>> "poetry" can be written in either verse (metrical or free) or prose.
>> This has nothing to do with such value-laden statements as "This isn't
>> poetry"; it's simply a matter of distinguishing two different modes of
>> writing--lineated and non-lineated.<
>
> Here, though, I think your attempt to avoid the value-laden lands you
> squarely in the value-laden soup. What you've done here is make
> "poetry" the value-laden term explicitly: it's the really good stuff,
> a term you use to describe the best of either verse or prose in your
> view. You're explicitly making "poetry" a value-laden term, and,
> thus, it's simply wrong to say that your definition "has nothing to
> do with such value-laden statements as 'This isn't poetry'" -- in
> fact the way you define the term ensures that it has everything to do
> with a value-laden statement such as 'This isn't poetry' precisely
> because your very definition ladens the term "poetry" with value.
>
>> Chopping up a prose paragraph into
>> lines doesn't make a claim that it's poetry, but it certainly would be
>> verse (though of a rather rudimentary type, I suspect). <
>
> This doesn't make sense within your scheme of distinguishing verse
> from prose because as soon as you say that prose may be poetry, you
> can make no such general claim as this. That unnamed unquoted "prose
> paragraph" may well actually be poetry in your scheme, whether it is
> in its paragraph prose form or its chopped up lines form, may it not?
> Certainly nothing in the description "prose paragraph" prevents it
> from being "poetry" in your view, once you've declared that a piece
> of writing may be "poetry" without reference to whether it is
> presented to the reader as prose or as verse. In your scheme it is
> simply unwarranted to make any claims whatever for whether any
> example of prose or verse is poetry or not once you've declared that
> poetry has nothing to do with whether a piece of writing is verse or
> prose.
>
> In fact, once you declare that a prose paragraph chopped up into
> lines is in fact "verse" (of however rudimentary a type), you've also
> abandoned any meaningful distinction between "prose" and "verse",
> since you allow explicitly that they are the same by saying that one
> is transmutable into the other by means of nothing other than adding
> or taking out line breaks.
>
> What your scheme seems to be really is a distinction between "prose
> and verse" on the one hand and "poetry" on the other. There's all
> that mass of writing that may be made into verse or prose equally
> well irrespective of any other considerations by simply lineating or
> unlineating it, some of which may be "poetry" depending on ...
> depending on what?
>
> That's the problem: the distinctions you're trying to make aren't
> helpful. In fact, by making "poetry" the value-laden term you've
> simply illustrated my point: that the central dispute is really the
> social significance and cultural weight of being able to claim that
> one is "a poet", that one's writing is "poetry".
>
> The more amorphous the definition of "poetry", the more value-laden a
> term you declare it to be, the more important it becomes to claim
> that one is a poet, that one's writing is poetry. The virtue of my
> distinction between "poetry is writing in meter" and "prose is
> writing not in meter" is that it explicitly removes the value-laden-
> ness of the term "poetry" by making it a descriptive term rather than
> a value term. After that distinction is made, then the next questions
> are "Is it good poetry?" and "Is it good prose?", and the value-laden
> discussions are held with value terms such as "good" and "bad" and
> "indifferent" instead of with terms such as "You're not a poet" and
> "This is not poetry".
>
> Marcus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Feb 16 19:49:49 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:49:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s21316a6.059@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21316a6.059@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <530c74e1ef7cb28afe8dd8fe78bfa1c5@mac.com>


On Feb 16, 2005, at 10:46 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> That's a great post by M. Peverett, though I don't see Weinberger's
> article really arguing anything more than what MP himself proposes in
> the first paragraph of his post re: the vulgar, ho-hum quality of most
> New Formalist verse.

Sturgeon's Law, you know. But the New Formalists aren't the only people 
writing in various meters, and even if they were,  my experience is 
that there's an even greater percentage of vulgar, ho-hum verse outside 
the metrical world. Projective verse, langpo, objectivism, the children 
of Jorie --  save me!  (though there are gems even there).

BTW, several people on the list have equated metrical writing with 
prudery. They need to get out more.

Mike S.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 16 19:53:30 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:53:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism
References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE98E@URANIUM.ripon.college>
Message-ID: <02bc01c5148b$1c0d23c0$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Omnism
    ---------- 
    The us-vs.-them mentality is extremely tedious no matter what form it takes. 
      
    Sure, but what if the us keeps the them (almost entirely) out of the mainstream anthologies, out of widely-circulated criticism, out of the classroom and ignored by the grants-bestowers?  What kind of mentality are the them supposed to adopt?  I mean, after ten or twenty years of trying politely to call the attention of the us to what they're doing?  The establishment always feels the us-vs-them mentality is tedious.

     

  --Bob G 
  -------------------------- 

  I dunno, Bob.  If I ever get the ear of a member of this Establishment, I'll be sure to ask.  

  As for getting certain kinds of poetry into the anthologies, I guess it's the old story:  you have to persuade editors and readers that it's good poetry, will sell books, will work well in a classroom, is worthy of critical attention, etc.  Go ahead and persuade away, I say, and be sure to keep us informed of your progress.

  Right.  But if they won't listen to you, you shouldn't be criticized for having an us vs. them attitude.



  Failing that, you wait for posterity to recognize your neglected genius.  I know that's been my strategy for years. . . .

  Mine, too.  By the way, just because you apparently aren't an office-holder in the establishment doesn't mean you're not in it.  You teach its poetry, read its books and criticism and pretty much ignore poetry it hasn't certified, except when feeling the need to be polite.



  --Bob G.
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed Feb 16 20:03:58 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:03:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu><037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu><03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c5148c$924d3ec0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re: " I've read nothing by Ashbery to suggest that he could actually "hear"
(let alone reproduce) the metrical sublimity of e.g. Yeats' Byzantium or
Pound's own pseudo-medieval lyrics."

Sadly, the same can be said of many of the new formalists.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter


> Gabriel -
>
> Sorry, my name is Michael. I ought to sign off properly. I forget it isn't
> apparent from my email address.
>
> I agree with most of what others have said, on all sides. Notably with 
> Kent on
> Pound and Ashbery. But actually I see a big divide between them. Pound was
> indeed a prosodist and wrote against what we might call a classical 
> metrical
> background, as Eliot did - he deliberately set off on new adventures in 
> sound.
> Ashbery, I feel, reflects something else - a new way of hearing that is
> relatively insensitive to meter. (Personally I find Ashbery much the more
> exciting poet, by the way.) But though "It was raining in the capital" is 
> a
> great poem deliberately written in slipshod and tone-deaf meter, and 
> though
> Ashbery manifests his radical modernity in recognizing no use for meter 
> but
> parody, I've read nothing by Ashbery to suggest that he could actually 
> "hear"
> (let alone reproduce) the metrical sublimity of e.g. Yeats' Byzantium or
> Pound's own pseudo-medieval lyrics. It is an art that is really irrelevant 
> to
> him - all he sees is that meter now means something sub-artistic, 
> principally
> the kitsch craft of Ella Wheeler Wilcox &c. I'm willing to be proved 
> wrong, and
> this is not a criticism. To have a truly modern sensibility (or what was 
> modern
> in 1955) must necessarily involve sacrifice of old understandings to make 
> room
> for the new.
>
> Re: Johnson's lives. The poets were not chosen by Johnson but by the
> publishers. They evidently decided to go back no further than Cowley and
> Milton, with the emphasis on their late 17thc work. That would 
> automatically
> exclude Herbert as well as all the Marvell that we now value. Johnson's 
> only
> deviation from the programme was to insist on adding some miniscule 
> eighteenth-
> century poets because of their piety.
>
> Re: Wyatt. I concur with Robin, I don't know of any contemporary comment 
> that
> noted the roughness of his meter. In its historical context, he was a 
> pioneer
> of regularity by contrast with the era of Skelton, Hawes and Barclay. It 
> was
> Wyatt's invention of the inanely metronomic Poulter's measure (fourteeners 
> and
> Alexandrines) that impressed his contemporaries. His deviations from the
> iambic "norm" were not noticed because at the time (in England, not e.g. 
> in
> Scotland) there was no such norm - he was painfully reinventing it.
>
> Re: Donne. I bow to Robin's knowledge - the Songs and Sonets were not 
> published
> when Jonson was having his rant. I had not particularly thought that he 
> was
> referring to Donne's Satires, though, since unmetricality was a recognized
> (therefore uncontroversial) aspect of this tradition. I had thought he 
> must be
> referring to poems where the accent, in his view, Ought to have been kept. 
> Is
> there any evidence of what poems by Donne he was particularly aware of? 
> Perhaps
> the Storm and the Calm were Donne's best-known poems at the time; but I 
> would
> like to think that when he called Donne "the first poet in the world, in 
> some
> things", he had read The Sonne Rising, Nocturnall on S Lucies Day, etc. - 
> and
> who could disagree with him?
>
> Re: English medieval meters. A big subject - I agree largely with Robin. 
> Anglo-
> Saxon meter was classically strict, tho very different from anything that 
> came
> later (a little like EW's Viking verses, in fact). Under the weight of
> conquests by Scandinavian and French speakers, dramatic changes in the
> language, the sense of this was lost. So little English was written down 
> that
> it's hard to tell what was going on in the early middle ages. Layamon's 
> Brut
> (12th c) is metrically chaotic. In the 14th century, as if out of 
> nowehere, we
> find alliterative poems, sophisticated and metrical - but a slacker, more
> garrulous measure than the Anglo-Saxon. Meanwhile French influence 
> (syllabic
> measure) leads to a new thing, the "iambic" measure of the anomalous Owl, 
> much
> later Chaucer and Gower. This combines the native accentual element with 
> strict
> syllable counting on the French model. After Gower's death, from 
> approximately
> 1400-1540 a strange period ensues when poets write a kind of verse that 
> vaguely
> looks like Chaucer (e.g. it's in rhyming couplets) but which cannot be 
> read
> iambically. It seems that the rhythms of the alliterative tradition, which 
> are
> so antipathetic to the iambic pentameter, are
> producing a kind of disruptive cross-infection. It's a very difficult, 
> perhaps
> impossible, challenge for us to read Lydgate or Hawes and to hear their 
> meter
> as they must have heard it themselves. To us, it merely looks irregular, 
> but
> this is ahistorical
> because we are hearing it against a background of later verse. It may have
> really been a breakdown similar to today's - good poets actually could not 
> hear
> meter clearly, they were hearing something else. (This does not happen in
> Scotland at all.) After Wyatt and Surrey re-established the iambic meter, 
> some
> people retained a taste for the earlier poetry, which to them was 
> virtually
> unmetrical poetry since they had no idea what it was really meant to sound
> like. Spenser, e.g., wrote rough couplets in some of the poems
> in the Shepheardes Calender. It came to be associated with satire via a 
> false
> etymology with "satyros", rough or shaggy. Thus there is a tenuous descent 
> to
> Donne...  But the point I wanted to make was that no-one in the middle 
> ages was
> deliberately writing unmetrical poetry - it was only when everyone felt 
> iambic
> regularity in their very bones that Donne and Marston were able to explore 
> the
> advanced aesthetic possibilities of stretching it beyond the limit. That's 
> what
> I meant by calling it derivative.
>
> But I suppose I'm suggesting that while that sophisticated post-regular
> approach has analogies with Pound, with Ashbery and his generation
> we're really moving into a totally different ballgame - not a search for 
> new
> meters but poetry that is through with meter altogether, though not of 
> course
> with organization or patterns in sound. One small strand of that is the
> influence of non-metrical poetries of the past, e.g. the ancient Semitic 
> form
> found in the Psalms, variously filtered through Whitman or Ginsberg and 
> surely
> a background influence on EW's poem of things that he heard about
> Iraq.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Wed Feb 16 20:18:40 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:18:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism by others
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEJNKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEJNKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0502162018300.24848@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

I RAWTHER like him too...




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 16 20:50:58 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:50:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s213a433.060@mail.highland.edu>

>Sturgeon's Law, you know. But the New Formalists aren't the only people

writing in various meters, and even if they were,  my experience is 
that there's an even greater percentage of vulgar, ho-hum verse outside

the metrical world. Projective verse, langpo, objectivism, the children

of Jorie --  save me!  (though there are gems even there).


I couldn't agree with you more, Mike.

Kent



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 16 21:08:13 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:08:13 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter (revised)
Message-ID: <s213a837.065@mail.highland.edu>

Mike had said:
>>Sturgeon's Law, you know. But the New Formalists aren't the only
people writing in various meters, and even if they were,  my experience
is 
that there's an even greater percentage of vulgar, ho-hum verse
outside
the metrical world. Projective verse, langpo, objectivism, the
children
of Jorie --  save me!  (though there are gems even there).

And I said:

>>I couldn't agree with you more, Mike.

But I hadn't noticed the "greater percentage" part. I don't know if
that is true, really. But the percentage is pretty big, especially in
the narrative, free verse camp, which appears to be in its late-life
stages as a general mode, in any case. But I would also say, arguing a
bit with Mike, that there are some very interesting formal experiments,
some of which become enmeshed in matters of meter, even "outside the
metrical world"-- particularly amongst post-avant strains. 



From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Feb 16 21:15:08 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:15:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter (revised)
In-Reply-To: <s213a837.065@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s213a837.065@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <fc36541b7f12753fdb1a840399f94c1e@mac.com>


On Feb 16, 2005, at 9:08 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Mike had said:
>>> Sturgeon's Law, you know. But the New Formalists aren't the only
> people writing in various meters, and even if they were,  my experience
> is
> that there's an even greater percentage of vulgar, ho-hum verse
> outside
> the metrical world. Projective verse, langpo, objectivism, the
> children
> of Jorie --  save me!  (though there are gems even there).
>
> And I said:
>
>>> I couldn't agree with you more, Mike.
>
> But I hadn't noticed the "greater percentage" part. I don't know if
> that is true, really. But the percentage is pretty big, especially in
> the narrative, free verse camp, which appears to be in its late-life
> stages as a general mode, in any case. But I would also say, arguing a
> bit with Mike, that there are some very interesting formal experiments,
> some of which become enmeshed in matters of meter, even "outside the
> metrical world"-- particularly amongst post-avant strains.

I'm not at all sure I'd argue back, Kent. There are more things in 
heaven and earth ...



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 16 21:26:33 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:26:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter (revised)
References: <s213a837.065@mail.highland.edu>
	<fc36541b7f12753fdb1a840399f94c1e@mac.com>
Message-ID: <032601c51498$192bc2d0$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I'm sure the neo-formalists are making a smaller percentage of really lousy poems than any other group simply because you have to know something to write formal poetry.

Hmm, except that you have to know something to try to go beyond what's standard, too.

I would say the percentage of bad conventional free verse is much higher than the percentage of either bad formal verse or bad burstnorm poetry, by whatever name.

--Bob G.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Feb 16 21:43:48 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:43:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Prine & Ted Kooser
In-Reply-To: <cutf26+vb9g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BE396104.F8C6%grahamd@ripon.edu>





February 7, 2005
Press contact: Donna Urschel (202) 707-1639
Public contact: Jennifer Rutland (202) 707-5394

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Singer-Songwriter John Prine To Join Poet Laureate Ted Kooser in
Conversation on March 9 The Poetry and Literature Center at the
Library of Congress presents "A Literary Evening with John Prine
and Ted Kooser" at 6:45 p.m. on Wednesday, March 9, in the
Coolidge Auditorium of the Library's Thomas Jefferson Building,
10 First St. S.E., Washington, D.C.

Although this event is free and open to the public, seating is
limited and free tickets will be distributed at the Information Desk
on a first-come, first-served basis, beginning at 5 p.m. the evening
of the event. There is a limit of two tickets per person.

The program will include a lively discussion between the songwriter
and the poet as they compare and contrast the emotional appeal of
the lyrics of popular songs with the appeal of contemporary poetry.

Born in 1946, the son of a tool and die maker, Prine enjoyed a
childhood imbued with classic American values and traditions that
would later be incorporated into his songs. Following military
service in Germany and a job with the U.S. Postal Service, Prine
made his public debut at an "open mic" session at a local
bar, whose owner promptly hired him. After Kris Kristofferson heard
Prine perform at the venerable Earl of Old Town music club in
Chicago, he assisted in Prine's career move from local singer-
songwriter to a national recording artist, who has won praise from
critics around the country.

After moving to Nashville in the early 1980s, Prine formed Oh Boy
records with his longtime manager Al Bunetta and associate Dan
Einstein. Since 1986, Prine has recorded several Grammy-nominated
albums with Oh Boy, and he won a Grammy for his 1991 album, "The
Missing Years," which featured appearances by Bruce Springsteen
and Tom Petty.

Librarian of Congress James H. Billington named Ted Kooser, a
visiting professor in the English department of the University of
Nebraska at Lincoln, the 13th Poet Laureate Consultant in Poetry to
the Library of Congress, calling Kooser "a major poetic voice for
rural and small-town America and the first Poet Laureate chosen from
the Great Plains." The author of 10 collections of poetry and the
recipient of numerous awards, Kooser studied at both Iowa State
University and the University of Nebraska. His book of
Essays, "Local Wonders: Seasons in the Bohemian Alps" (2002),
was chosen as the Best Book Written by a Midwestern Writer for 2002
by Friends of American Writers, and his most recent book,
"Delights 
& Shadows," published by Copper Canyon Press in 2004, has been
widely praised.

The origin of the Poetry and Literature Center of the Library of
Congress dates to 1936, when Archer M. Huntington endowed the Chair
of Poetry at the Library. The center itself was founded in the 1940s
and has been almost exclusively supported since 1951 by a gift from
Gertrude Clarke Whittall (1867-1965), who wanted to bring the
appreciation of good literature to a larger audience.

Today, the Poetry and Literature Center is the home of the Poet
Laureate Consultant in Poetry at the Library of Congress. In
addition to supporting the Poet Laureate's activities and
interests, the center sponsors an annual series of public poetry and
fiction readings, lectures, symposia, occasional dramatic
performances and other literary events.

In addition to scheduled public events, the center administers the
Rebekah Johnson Bobbitt National Prize for Poetry, a biannual
$10,000 award for the best book of poetry published by a living U.S.
author during the two years preceding the year of the award as well
as the Witter Bynner Fellowships for emerging poetic talent.

For more information about the programs of the Poetry and Literature
Center, contact the Office of Scholarly Programs, Library of
Congress, 101 Independence Avenue S.E., Washington, DC 20540-4860;
telephone (202) 707-3302, fax (202) 707-3595, or visit the
Library's Web site at www.loc.gov/poetry.
this article - http://www.loc.gov/today/pr/2005/05-022.html

______________________

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Feb 16 21:52:33 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:52:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <1d7.36c69503.2f4560f1@aol.com>

Can no one drive a stake in heart of this vampire
of an argument? But I've been enjoying the back & forth 
when it comes to who had "rough numbers" or who was 
a 'smooth operator', metrically speaking, from antiquity forward. 
Below are a few things I wrote way back when, re Weinberger's odd
& dense take on New Formalism and its implications.
Finnegan

EW: "The only uncivil note was a leering sexuality (some titles listed) that
was creepy in its adolescent frisson of formalism and pseudo-lewdness,
and entirely lacking in genuine perversity..." Even if we all could
agree what "genuine perversity" was, this seems a strange criticism.
And an odd avenue of inquiry: Is there a right & wrong bodily prosody
for sex as illustrated in a poem...a Kama-Sutric way of doing it, 
so to speak?

"Very few Rebel Angels attempted anything more difficult than a sonnet,
and only a few even tried their hands at these." This is really disingenuous.
The 25 poets represented have each 3-7 poems on display. There are
a good number of sonnets on display...but surely most of the poets 
represented have written &/or published sonnets...they're just not among 
this particular selection. And the anthology isn't meant to show off the 
many forms (common & exotic) each poet has mastered...like most 
anthologies is meant to give one a small representative sample of each 
poet's work.

Then EW obtusely observes: "The only American formalists of the
century may well turn out to be Louis Zukofsky, John Cage, and
Jackson Mac Low, who invented their own idiosyncratic and inflexible
rules..." This kind of structuring of language is formal, true....but it's 
not
traditional formalism...using the received prosody of English language
canon. He purposefully clouds the issue of whether contemporary poets 
can make lasting artistic works while working within the received 
traditional conventions of English prosody...or by pushing received
forms, re-shaping them to some degree, but not so changing them as to 
make the forms/meters unrecognizable as emanating from the tradition.

The stuff about the difficulty of Viking prosody was really
off topic & a red herring. It's news that some languages, like 
Old Norse, have more complex prosodic elements at play in 
the verse? I could say Welsh has a more complex prosody, 
from what I know it..but how is this relevant? Eliot Weinberger 
should know that different languages/cultures develop poetries 
with different prosodic elements. He did a wonderful little book
called 19 Ways of Looking at Wang Wei. In it he says "In
classical Chinese, each character (ideogram) represents 
a word of a single syllable." Wouldn't a poetry based on
this language, by its very nature (single word=one syllable), 
develop a different set of prosodic elements? He knows better 
but is just playing a childish game: "NahNah..I know a culture's 
whose poetry is more prosodically intricate than your language's 
poetry." Okay, and there are certainly poetries in languages that 
have simpler prosodic elements & received forms than those that 
have developed in English poetry. So what's the point.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Feb 16 22:55:39 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:55:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <36.6c908be8.2f456fbb@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/16/2005 6:39:14 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> Just out of curiosity, what book is considered authoritative on what meter 
> is?  I considered it a very damaged term since it's so easy to say any text 
> is metrical.  Also, is there a good history of meter around?
> 
> --Bob G. 
Saintsbury is the best historical guide.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Feb 16 22:58:07 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:58:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Prine & Ted Kooser
Message-ID: <f6.4a570298.2f45704f@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/16/2005 8:41:42 PM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> Singer-Songwriter John Prine To Join Poet Laureate Ted Kooser in
> Conversation on March 9 The Poetry and Literature Center at the
> Library of Congress presents "A Literary Evening with John Prine
> and Ted Kooser" at 6:45 p.m. on Wednesday, March 9, in the
> Coolidge Auditorium of the Library's Thomas Jefferson Building,
> 10 First St. S.E., Washington, D.C.
> 
> Although this event is free and open to the public, seating is
Man!  I'd like to see that one! Post it to wom-po, David!
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 16 22:48:42 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:48:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "taxi" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s21385f6.037@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEKKKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


A taxi without a meter is just another limo.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Feb 16 23:43:55 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:43:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <75.3f19993b.2f457b0b@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/16/2005 6:45:37 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> 
> Yes.  I said "significant lengths of time."  That means pattern to me. 
> Repeat something long enough is how tomake a pattern.  I'm sure all you 
> formalists will shoot me for saying it, but I consider "accent," "beat" and 
> "stress" all the same thing.  While opinionating, I'll add that I think 
> regular beats or stresses entirely different from syllable or stress 
> counting--more different from regular beats than free verse is from syllable 
> 
> or stress counting.
Who the heck would argue with this?  They're just synonyms.  You might as 
well call them "thunks."
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Feb 16 23:49:46 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:49:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <1e1.36131eb6.2f457c6a@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/16/2005 7:05:02 PM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org 
writes: 
> 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> Re: " I've read nothing by Ashbery to suggest that he could actually "hear"
> (let alone reproduce) the metrical sublimity of e.g. Yeats' Byzantium or
> Pound's own pseudo-medieval lyrics."
> 
> Sadly, the same can be said of many of the new formalists.

Pound was a gifted parodist and could speak in many voices 
effectively--except his own.  As for "Byzantium," well, gee, there ain't much there that hadn't 
been done for three hundred years before (as I suspect Yeats would have 
admitted).  It's a great poem, but the greatness doesn't come from any metrical 
innovations.  If New Formalists don't come up to the level of Yeats . . . gosh, 
how sad.  How many New Unformalists come up to the level of Whitman or Williams?
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Feb 16 23:54:59 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:54:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216203307.03109ec0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Michael said, "It was Wyatt's invention of the inanely metronomic Poulter's 
measure"

Michael,

We seem to be inhabiting parallel universes: it was Surrey, not Wyatt, who 
"invented" the Poulter's measure. And to say that Wyatt was not ridiculed 
for his rough lines is to deny at least a wheelbarrow of books surmising 
why he should have written in such a peculiar manner. So, I think you've 
mixed up Surrey with Wyatt. I'd like to know your citations for who 
considered Wyatt (a) the inventor of the Poulter's measure, and (b) "a 
pioneer of regularity." If you were talking of SURREY, I'd agree with you.

Your thesis that "no one noticed" Wyatt's weird lines while they did 
Donne's is curious, and I'd like to hear more about what makes you say 
that. Some of the things you say to support that assertion have that same 
parallel-universe feel (as above): chiefly, that the iambic line had been 
lost. Not sure how or why you think that happened -- can one "lose" the 
iambic line -- the iambic line which so many (on this list anyway) would 
consider naturally embodied, or which was so readily established by 
Chaucer. (By the way, I think it might be more accurate to say that  the 
iambic line was not lost so much as schwa-based iambs went teh way of the 
maypole).

The stuff about "no-one in the middle ages was deliberately writing 
unmetrical poetry" is fanciful and I'd really love to have a go in your 
time machine some day. But no one on this thread argued they did -- the 
nearest I've come is to say that even "Ed" is metrical in its own rough 
(and somewhat boring) way -- and that poets have done, do, and will 
continue to write in ways considered rough (as in not smooth, not Surrey) 
in order to keep making the stone stoney.

Neat story about Johnson's Lives.

G.



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Thu Feb 17 00:04:08 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:04:08 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s21385f6.037@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21385f6.037@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050216230044.0368bfa0@mail.ilstu.edu>

then Kent said,
>(Gabe, on that poem, have you been reading Wilmot? That guy was
>obscene! But what an obscenely lovely writer.)

No I haven't heard of the guy. I'll have to get me some of that Wilmot 
mojo. Thanks for the tip. g 



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Feb 17 00:42:21 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:42:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal
Message-ID: <BE398ADD.F8EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Anyone care to comment on the formal qualities of this poem by yet another
mystery poet?


If

If your hair was brown
and isn?t now,
if your hands were strong
and now you falter,

if your eyes were sharp
and now they blur,
your step confident
and now it?s careful--

you?ve had the world,
such as you got.
There?s nothing more,
there never was.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 00:59:46 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:59:46 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu><037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu><03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu><1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216203307.03109ec0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <04ec01c514b5$e30c08e0$3b9f9951@Robin>

From: "Gabriel Gudding" <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>

> Michael said, "It was Wyatt's invention of the inanely metronomic
Poulter's
> measure"
>
> Michael,
>
> We seem to be inhabiting parallel universes: it was Surrey, not Wyatt, who
> "invented" the Poulter's measure.

I think I disagree with both Gabe and Michael here.  Both Wyatt and Surrey
used it (and I'd guess, as he was the elder, Wyatt before Surrey) but I
don't think either "invented" it.

Sam Gwynn suggested Saintsbury as an historical guide to metre.  Here's what
Saintsbury says:

"One of the forms which both Wyatt and Surrey practised and which they made,
or helped to make, exceedingly and rather disastrously popular with the
generation immediately succeeding them, was not Italian at all, it was the
celebrated "poulter's measure", or couplet of Alexandrine and fourteener,
with only a single rhyme for the whole. This may be regarded from several
points of view as to its nature and origin; but the simplest and most
natural is that which takes it as a modified ballad quatrain re-reduced to
long instead of short lines, regularising the licence of six for eight In
the first hemistich cutting down the requirement of rhyme to the very lowest
possible terms, and rejecting the presence of trisyllabic equivalence."

George Saintsbury, A HISTORY OF ENGLISH PROSODY FROM THE TWELFTH CENTURY TO
THE PRESENT DAY

http://www.dirk-johnson.com/Prosody/Saintsbury/prosodyhistoryvol1.htm

i.e. both Wyatt and Surrey used it, but it didn't originate with either.

Tim Brogan in NPEPP doesn't, alas, suggest who originated it, but does say,
"It is used by Wyatt, Surrey, Sidney, Grimald, and others ..."

George Gascoigne coined the term and commented on the form in +Certain Notes
of Instruction+ (and also, I think, used it in some of his poems), so it
would be interesting to see what he says.  (I've a copy downstairs which I
ought to look up, but it's late [or early] so I'll be lazy and cop out.)  My
sense is that Gascoigne generally in his poetry was much more interested in
and aware of Wyatt than Surrey, for what that's worth.

Robin




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 01:21:51 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:21:51 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu><037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu><03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu><1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216203307.03109ec0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <050b01c514b8$f8660260$3b9f9951@Robin>

From: "Gabriel Gudding" <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>

> Some of the things you say to support that assertion have that same
> parallel-universe feel (as above): chiefly, that the iambic line had been
> lost. Not sure how or why you think that happened -- can one "lose" the
> iambic line -- the iambic line which so many (on this list anyway) would
> consider naturally embodied, or which was so readily established by
> Chaucer.

Briefly, the general consensus is (or was) that much post-Chaucerian poetry
was distorted by the loss of the final unaccented e (which would apply
whether this was a speech phenomenon or a local lterary one).

Lydgate, among others, tried to write poetry in the manner in which they
*heard* Chaucer (i.e. no e), with the resultant catastrophic results.

(I seem to be inhabiting the same parallel universe as Michael.  <g>)

Robin




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 17 01:26:31 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 01:26:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal
Message-ID: <7a.6d4351a5.2f459317@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/16/2005 11:40:02 PM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> If
> 
> If your hair was brown              5
> and isn?t now,                         4          
> if your hands were strong         5
> and now you falter,                  5
> 
> if your eyes were sharp            5
> and now they blur,                   4
> your step confident                  5
> and now it?s careful--                5
> 
> you?ve had the world,               4
> such as you got.                     4
> There?s nothing more,              4
> there never was.                      4
> 
> It's not regularly syllabic, but I get two strong stresses per line.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 17 01:32:45 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 01:32:45 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <67.3eb81bee.2f45948d@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2005 12:00:36 AM Central Standard Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> From: "Gabriel Gudding" <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
> 
> >Michael said, "It was Wyatt's invention of the inanely metronomic
> Poulter's
> >measure"
> >
> >Michael,
> >
> >We seem to be inhabiting parallel universes: it was Surrey, not Wyatt, who
> >"invented" the Poulter's measure.
> 
> I think I disagree with both Gabe and Michael here.  Both Wyatt and Surrey
> used it (and I'd guess, as he was the elder, Wyatt before Surrey) but I
> don't think either "invented" it.
> 
> Sam Gwynn suggested Saintsbury as an historical guide to metre.  Here's what
> Saintsbury says:
> 
> "One of the forms which both Wyatt and Surrey practised and which they made,
> or helped to make, exceedingly and rather disastrously popular with the
> generation immediately succeeding them, was not Italian at all, it was the
> celebrated "poulter's measure", or couplet of Alexandrine and fourteener,
> with only a single rhyme for the whole. This may be regarded from several
> points of view as to its nature and origin; but the simplest and most
> natural is that which takes it as a modified ballad quatrain re-reduced to
> long instead of short lines, regularising the licence of six for eight In
> the first hemistich cutting down the requirement of rhyme to the very lowest
> possible terms, and rejecting the presence of trisyllabic equivalence."
> 
> George Saintsbury, A HISTORY OF ENGLISH PROSODY FROM THE TWELFTH CENTURY TO
> THE PRESENT DAY
> 
> http://www.dirk-johnson.com/Prosody/Saintsbury/prosodyhistoryvol1.htm
> 
> i.e. both Wyatt and Surrey used it, but it didn't originate with either.
> 
> Tim Brogan in NPEPP doesn't, alas, suggest who originated it, but does say,
> "It is used by Wyatt, Surrey, Sidney, Grimald, and others ..."
> 
> George Gascoigne coined the term and commented on the form in +Certain Notes
> of Instruction+ (and also, I think, used it in some of his poems), so it
> would be interesting to see what he says.  (I've a copy downstairs which I
> ought to look up, but it's late [or early] so I'll be lazy and cop out.)  My
> sense is that Gascoigne generally in his poetry was much more interested in
> and aware of Wyatt than Surrey, for what that's worth.
> 
> Robin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
 Poulter's measure--6 and 7--became the "short measure "of many hymns.

I3  a
I3  b
I4  c
I3  b

Elsewhere, the faults are less and the merits more continuous. The sapphics ?
When the fierce north wind with his airy forces,? like nearly all English 
attempts at the metre before the last half century, balance and pivot the rhythm 
wrongly; but there is, at least, something grandiose about them, and, like Watts
?s other things, they show a healthy reaction against the chilling uniformity 
of the couplet. Watts was one of the earliest to try blank verse; and few 
will think his ?essays without rhyme,? as he himself called them, an item on the 
wrong side of his account. He was sometimes very happy in the dangerous ?
short measure??the old ?poulters? measure? split into four; and, in whatever 
form he writes, we shall not accompany him far without (though, perhaps, in a 
rather different sense) agreeing with Johnson himself that ?his ear was well 
tuned and his diction elegant and copious.? Inferior as he may be to Collins, 40 
he shows the same combat of time and man: while the time is even more against 
him. And one cannot help speculating on what he might have done if his floruit 
had coincided, not with the junction of the seventeenth and eighteenth 
centuries but with that of the eighteenth and nineteenth. 

http://205.180.85.40/w/pc.cgi?mid=60216&sid=6096
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 01:42:33 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:42:33 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu><037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu><03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <07d901c514bb$dc7bade0$3b9f9951@Robin>

Michael:

> Re: Johnson's lives. The poets were not chosen by Johnson but by the
> publishers. They evidently decided to go back no further than Cowley and
> Milton, with the emphasis on their late 17thc work. That would
automatically
> exclude Herbert as well as all the Marvell that we now value.

Point, but that still doesn't explain why he *comments* on Donne, but not on
the younger and later-published Herbert and Marvell.

> Re: Donne. I bow to Robin's knowledge - the Songs and Sonets were not
published
> when Jonson was having his rant. I had not particularly thought that he
was
> referring to Donne's Satires,

Well, there's no hard evidence that he was -- I'm mostly surmising.

> Is
> there any evidence of what poems by Donne he was particularly aware of?
Perhaps
> the Storm and the Calm were Donne's best-known poems at the time; but I
would
> like to think that when he called Donne "the first poet in the world, in
some
> things", he had read The Sonne Rising, Nocturnall on S Lucies Day, etc. -
and
> who could disagree with him?

He also refers (caustically) to Donne's [First] Anniversary.

That, the Prince Henry elegy, and the Satires in a poem to Lucy, Countess of
Bedford with an (MS) copy of Donne's Satires she'd asked for, together with
the poems Michael mentions, are, I think, the only one he names, but given
how close he was to Donne, I'd guess he'd seen the S&S in manuscript.  Maybe
he just preferred Donne's earlier poems.

He certainly, overall, rated Donne highly -- three poems on him, all
complimentary, and a scattering of comments in the Conversations and
Discoveries.

[Jonson's comments on Donne, both in poetry and prose, can be found in
C.A.Patrides (ed.), Robin Hamiton (update), +John Donne: Complete English
Poems+ (1994), pp. 396-399.]

Robin




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 01:48:56 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:48:56 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu><037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu><03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <0a9d01c514bc$c10ed8b0$3b9f9951@Robin>

Michael:

> [Wyatt] was a pioneer
> of regularity by contrast with the era of Skelton, Hawes and Barclay.

I'm not sure I'd agree when it comes to Skelton -- "Mannerly Margery Milk
and Ale" or "Skelton's Lullaby" seem to me to be at least as regular as
Wyatt.

It's odd that Skelton and Wyatt were both writing at the court of Henry
VIII, but neither seem aware of the other's work.

(Skelton died in 1529, when Wyatt was 26 and must have already been a noted
writer around the place.

Jealousy on the one side, the anxiety of influence on the other, maybe?)

Robin




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 05:31:57 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:31:57 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu><1108559697.42134751ef675@webmail.ukonline.net><6.0.3.0.2.20050216122612.0317c7d8@mail.ilstu.edu><03d001c5145a$2a8ad180$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216132002.03177aa0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <059801c514db$e8b31150$c5309b51@Robin>

Gabe:

> Then Robin said:
> ><<Who by?  Certainly not by Puttenham in +The Art of English Poetry+, or
> >earlier by Surrey (who was a more regular metricist than Wyatt) in his
two
> >verse elegies on Wyatt.>>
>
> Robin, by lots of folks. It's a commonplace of literary history. Here: I
> just opened up my Harvard UP Kenneth Muir edition of Wyatt and read this
> from page xvii, "Wyatt's, on the other hand, seemed to be harsh, clumsy,
> and unmusical. The eighteenth century [the one we're talking about,
babies]
> naturally found more to admire in Surrey than in Wyatt and as late as 1816
> a critic could pronounce emphatically that Wyatt was not a poet at all."

Can't find your reference on page xvii, but our editions (mine is the
Liverpool UP one) may have different pagination, and damned if I'm going to,
at this moment, re-read all of Muir's Intro.  <g>

I'm not sure how trustworthy Muir is in this area -- his punctuation of
Wyatt's texts is more than mildly lunatic.  (There's a rumour that he did
this on the train between Liverpool and London, and the rhythm of the train
wheels going over the joints in the track got into his edition.)

1816 would be Nott, who was the first to publish Wyatt (along with Surrey)
since Tottel in 1557 (though there had been republications or re-editions of
Tottel itself in the interim).

But this may be the answer to your "parallel universes" observation -- Nott,
with a late Augustan or early Romatic sensibilty, simply can't get his head
around Wyatt, so looking back from there, yes, Wyatt is rough, while
Michael, looking forward from the medieval period, sees him as smooth(er).

But to come to the specifics of your "commonplace of literary history",
you've driven me to refresh my memory.  (On the cheap. <g>)

All the major comments on Wyatt up to C.S.Lewis in 1954 (including virtually
*every* miserable comment at least up to Nott) are brought together in
+Wyatt: The Critical Heritage+.  The first *negative* comment (No. 8) is by
Warton in 1781 -- the previous one recorded is by Drayton in 1627.

(The CH volume, incidentally, was compiled by Muir's co-editor Patricia
Thomson -- he did the text of Wyatt, she did the notes -- so I'm prepared to
trust it.)

So two things:

(1) Up to 1627 [at least] no one saw Wyatt as particularly "rough" (though
certainly Surrey *was* seen as [comparatively] smoother), and the first
negative comment on his metrical regularity occurs in 1781.

(2) There are so few comments -- nine up to 1816 -- that it's difficult to
generalise.

What Warton and Nott would have thought if they'd read the poems that Wyatt
actually *wrote* rather than the partly-smoothed-out redactions in Tottel, I
shudder to think.  (I think the first printed text to use the Egerton MS,
and thus give us the Wyatt we're familiar with today, was Foxwell in 1913.)

{Small qualification to the above -- I've just had a quick look at Foxwell's
intro to her edition, and she says that Nott *did* at least consult the MSS,
though he ended-up usually rejecting them for a Tottel reading.}

Of course, it partly turns on which particular Wyatt poems we're talking
about -- the translations of most of Petarch's sonnets ("Whoso list to hunt
..." would be an exception) are (unsurpringly) more tortured or tortuous
than the rest of his work.

... even his Satires (pace Michael, and they're not called that explicitly
by Wyatt himself -- "satiric verse epistles" might be a better term) aren't
particularly "rough".

Also, it depends on how old Wyatt was.  The Devonshire version of the
farewell to love, "Now farewell Love, and thy laws forever" is a weird mix
of stress and iambic lines.  The Egerton revision -- "Farewell Love and all
thy laws forever" -- is smoother, but still has one anomalous line, 'Hath
taught me to set in trifles no store'.

(Grimald in Tottel makes the final switch, revising this to "Taught me in
trifles that I set no store".)

Wyatt didn't "restore" the iambic pentameter +at a stroke+ -- he endured a
learning-curve.

Robin




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb 17 09:04:15 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:04:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <75.3f19993b.2f457b0b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00cc01c514fd$c1cc99e0$49b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In a message dated 2/16/2005 6:45:37 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 


    Yes.  I said "significant lengths of time."  That means pattern to me. 
    Repeat something long enough is how to make a pattern.  I'm sure all you 
    formalists will shoot me for saying it, but I consider "accent," "beat" and 
    "stress" all the same thing.  While opinionating, I'll add that I think 
    regular beats or stresses entirely different from syllable or stress 
    counting--more different from regular beats than free verse is from syllable 
    or stress counting.

  Who the heck would argue with this?  They're just synonyms.  You might as well call them "thunks." 
  I thought you did, Sam, when you said meter has nothing to do with "beats."  I thought that meant it had to do with something other than beats, but you apparently were suggesting it only had to do with--what?  Metrical lineation?

  I don't like the definition of meter as length of lines of regular rhythm, by the way.  It seems to me that meter is a device concerned with repetition of beat patterns, line length--in metrical poetry--not a device but something to do with form.  

  Lineation (to go to a topic in another post) is different from line length and a device.  It is no more trivial than repetition of beat patterns.  For one thing, it can prevent an aestheriencer from reading too quickly through an important idea or image or figure of speech.  Used intra-syllabically as in Cummings it can disconceal extra meanings.  Taken further, it can yield visual poetry.  It also provides a climate when adventures seem easier to try.

  Aside from that, it "simply" changes the appearance of a text.  It says "poem."  Since all poems, including free verse, have central tasks that prose does not (expression of beauty versus transmission of information, for instance), this helps aestheriencers enter them with appropriate expectations and attitudes.  Which can be important.

  Apologies for going extraneous but I'm trying to get my thoughts in order on this.

  --Bob G.




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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 17 09:58:04 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:58:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <1e8.35201eb5.2f460afc@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2005 8:35:42 AM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> I thought you did, Sam, when you said meter has nothing to do with "beats." 
>  I thought that meant it had to do with something other than beats, but you 
> apparently were suggesting it only had to do with--what?  Metrical lineation? 
> 
> 
> 
In verse, yes.  Meter can have something to do with "beats"--accentual meter, 
for example.  Or it can have nothing to do with them--syllabic meter.  Or it 
can have something to do with them--accentual-syllabic meter.  Which is to say 
that roughly 1/4 of all iambic lines ever written really have only 4 "beats":
                  /          /               /             /
       Th'expense of spirit in a waste of shame

And a lot of them, with spondees, have more than 5:
                 /              /             /    /     /          /
       And summer's lease hath all too short a date

I won't get into matters of half-stresses or the 1/2/3/4 types of scansion 
that "rank" the relative stress of syllables.  Visual scansion is just a poor 
substitute for what should be heard, not seen, and I tell my students to call a 
syllable stressed or unstressed.

Those who'd argue that "in" deserves a full stress simply because it's in a 
position in an iambic pentameter line where it ought to have a stress have, 
well, no ear.  But it's easy enough to write pentameter with no ear--the kind of 
leaden pentameters Pound was talking about in his metronome analogy.
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Feb 17 10:15:22 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:15:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s21460d3.010@mail.highland.edu>

then Kent said,
>(Gabe, on that poem, have you been reading Wilmot? That guy was
>obscene! But what an obscenely lovely writer.)

>No I haven't heard of the guy. I'll have to get me some of that Wilmot

mojo. Thanks for the tip. g 

The Earl of Rochester.




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 10:21:58 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:21:58 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <1e8.35201eb5.2f460afc@cs.com>
Message-ID: <033901c51504$6c66b510$c5309b51@Robin>

<<
                  /          /               /             /
       Th'expense of spirit in a waste of shame
...
Those who'd argue that "in" deserves a full stress simply because it's in a
position in an iambic pentameter line where it ought to have a stress have,
well, no ear.  But it's easy enough to write pentameter with no ear--the
kind of leaden pentameters Pound was talking about in his metronome analogy.
>>

OK, I confess it, I have no ear.

But doesn't "full stress" beg several questions?  "in" carries a higher (if
not full) degree of stress than the second syllable in "spirit" and the
following "a".  If you (as I do) follow Wimsatt&Beardsley and the idea of
contrastive rather than absolute stress, "in" thus carries a metrical ictus,
and you get :

            X / X / X \ X / X /.

(OK everyone, the first time I came on "ictus", I wanted to throw up, but it
seems to me a useful term to distinguish between metrical stress and speech
stress.)

<<
I won't get into matters of half-stresses or the 1/2/3/4 types of scansion
that "rank" the relative stress of syllables.
>>

Do you mean the Trager-Smith stuff, Sam?

<<
 Visual scansion is just a poor substitute for what should be heard, not
seen, and I tell my students to call a syllable stressed or unstressed.
>>

I'd agree with the first part of that, re visual scansion, but not the
second.  I don't think it's a matter of stressed/half-stressed/unstressed
but contrast, and that's rather ruled out of court by an insistence on a
binary opposition between "stressed" and "unstressed" syllables.

Robin




From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Feb 17 11:02:34 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:02:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s21460d3.010@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21460d3.010@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <8591366.1108656154595.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, February 17, 2005, at 10:17AM, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

>then Kent said,
>>(Gabe, on that poem, have you been reading Wilmot? That guy was
>>obscene! But what an obscenely lovely writer.)
>
>>No I haven't heard of the guy. I'll have to get me some of that Wilmot
>
>mojo. Thanks for the tip. g 
>
>The Earl of Rochester.
>
>



 There's a fair selection here: http://www.pornokrates.com/rochester.html 

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Feb 17 11:02:12 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:02:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not a Parody
Message-ID: <s2146bbd.099@mail.highland.edu>

Speaking of Eliot Weinberger, just received this from him:

February 11, 2005
Next up for Ashcroft: Poet Laureate?
Former Attorney General John Ashcroft is a top contender to become the
next
Poet Laureate of the United States, say insiders. But the man who
penned
"Let the Eagle Soar" faces a stiff challenge from the favored candidate
of
conservative Christians: Roy Moore, former Alabama chief justice, and
the
author of "Our American Birthright."


Some poets balk at idea of appointing a 'one-poem' poet

By Deanna Swift

WASHINGTON, DC-When Former Attorney General John Ashcroft bid a fond
farewell to public service last month, he was intentionally vague about
his
plans for the future. Ashcroft has said only that he plans to remain in
the
Washington D.C. area and will give speeches.

But sources close to Ashcroft say that he has his eye on a very
different
prize these days: he wants to be the nation's next top bard, otherwise
known
as the Poet Laureate Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress.
Were
Ashcroft to succeed in landing the coveted post, the man often
criticized
for being a Bush administration "lightening rod" would have an
opportunity
to be an official lightning rod: for the poetic impulse of Americans.

It's the job of the Poet Laureate, who serves for seven months and
receives
a $35,000 stipend, to raise the national consciousness to a greater
appreciation of the reading and writing of poetry.

How high can the eagle soar?
Ashcroft's poetry credentials are based largely on the strength of a
single
verse, a lyric-ode hybrid entitled "Let the Eagle Soar." Fans of the
former
attorney general praise his skillful use of masculine syllable endings
and
strong end rhymes in "Eagle," placing him in the tradition of
Longfellow,
Byron, even Francis Scott Key. President Bush sent a signal of his
strong
support for Ashcroft's candidacy by making "Eagle" a centerpiece of
his
swearing-in ceremony in January. Guy Hovis, a Mississippi native and
long-time performer on "The Lawrence Welk Show," performed the lyric
ode.

  "Let the eagle soar,
  Like she's never soared before.
  From rocky coast to golden shore,
  Let the mighty eagle soar.
  Soar with healing in her wings,
  As the land beneath her sings:
  'Only god, no other kings.'
  This country's far too young to die.
  We've still got a lot of climbing to do,
  And we can make it if we try.
  Built by toils and struggles
  God has led us through."


If Ashcroft successfully lands the position of primary poet, he'll
replace
Ted Kooser, selected to the post last fall, and the first Poet Laureate
from
the Great Plains.

>From the right: conservative couplets
While Ashcroft might seem like a shoe-in for the job, he's not the top
choice of conservative religious leaders, despite their support for
Ashcroft
during his tenure as attorney general. The Coalition for Traditional
Values,
which includes leaders of pro-family groups such as the American
Family
Organization, the Campaign for Families and the Baptist Leadership
Council,
has thrown its support behind former Alabama chief Justice Roy Moore,
author
of the 1998 poem "Our American Birthright."

  Our American Birthright

  One nation under God was their cry and declaration,
  Upon the law of Nature's God they built a mighty Nation.
  For Unlike Mankind before them who had walked this earthen sod,
  These men would never question the Sovereignty of God.

  That all men were created was a truth "self-evident,"
  To secure the rights God gave us was the role of government.
  And if any form of government became destructive of this end,
  It was their right, their duty, a new one to begin.

  So with a firm reliance on Divine Providence for protection,
  They pledged their sacred honor and sought His wise direction.
  They lifted an appeal to God for all the world to see,
  And declared their independence forever to be free.

  I'm glad they're not with us to see the mess we're in,
  How we've given up our righteousness for a life of indulgent sin.
  For when abortion isn't murder and sodomy is deemed a right,
  Then evil is now called good and darkness is now called light.

  While truth and law were founded on the God of all Creation,
  Man now, through law, denies the truth and calls it "separation."
  No longer does man see a need for God when he's in full control,
  For the only truth self-evident is in the latest poll.

  But with man as his own master we fail to count the cost,
  Our precious freedoms vanish and our liberty is lost.
  Children are told they can't pray and they teach them evolution,
  When will they learn the fear of God is the only true solution.

  Our schools have become the battleground while all across the land,
  Christians shrug their shoulders afraid to take a stand.
  And from the grave their voices cry the victory has been won
  Just glorify the Father as did His only Son.

  When your work on earth is done, and you've traveled where we've
trod,
  You'll leave the land we left to you, One Nation Under God!

"These are both godly men, but we believe that Roy Moore will make the
better Poet Laureate," says Sandy Slokum, executive director of Defend
Our
Marriages, a pro-family group that advocates defending marriage by
adding a
ban on adultery to the constitution. While Slokum praises Ashcroft's
 "Eagle," she insists that Moore will do a better job of returning
poetry to
the family. "He's working on a beautiful poem called 'Ring of Gold'
about
traditional marriage and how God intended it to be the union of one man
and
one woman."

Moore is best known not for his poetry, but for his intriguing position
on
the separation between church and state. Moore gained notoriety after
he
refused to remove a massive concrete statue of the Ten Commandments
from his
office in 2003.

Poetry meets politics
Not everyone is happy about the prospect that either Ashcroft or Moore
could
soon be the most prominent poet in the country. Some critics point out
that
this is probably the first time since the Library of Congress
established
the Poetry and Literature Center in 1936 that a candidate is being
considered on the basis of a single poem. "This is outrageous on the
face of
it," says Donald Merkin, poet in residence at Eastern Illinois College
and
the author of Slaughter in the Chicken House: an Elegy. "The role of
the
Poet Laureate is to act as an ambassador of literary arts. Poets in
the
community worry Ashcroft will serve as a poetic mouthpiece for the
Bush
administration."

This is not the first time that the poetry position has been dogged by
controversy. Communist William Carlos Williams was appointed in 1952
but
never served. Williams' appointment was revoked with the understanding
that
he could be re-instated once he completed "loyalty procedures," but his
term
ended before he was able to prove that he wasn't a communist.

Slokum and others complain that position of Poet Laureate has too often
been
meted out on the basis of political correctness, rather than the
righteousness of the poetry. Of the 38 people appointed poet consultant
or
laureate, eight have been women and two, African-American.


From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Feb 17 11:08:01 2005
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:08:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not a Parody
In-Reply-To: <s2146bbd.099@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2146bbd.099@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <20050217110747.U70016@kpaul.spinweb.net>

man, if it happens, i *am* going to canada...

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Speaking of Eliot Weinberger, just received this from him:
>
> February 11, 2005
> Next up for Ashcroft: Poet Laureate?
> Former Attorney General John Ashcroft is a top contender to become the
> next
> Poet Laureate of the United States, say insiders. But the man who
> penned
> "Let the Eagle Soar" faces a stiff challenge from the favored candidate
> of
> conservative Christians: Roy Moore, former Alabama chief justice, and
> the
> author of "Our American Birthright."
>
>
> Some poets balk at idea of appointing a 'one-poem' poet
>
> By Deanna Swift
>
> WASHINGTON, DC-When Former Attorney General John Ashcroft bid a fond
> farewell to public service last month, he was intentionally vague about
> his
> plans for the future. Ashcroft has said only that he plans to remain in
> the
> Washington D.C. area and will give speeches.
>
> But sources close to Ashcroft say that he has his eye on a very
> different
> prize these days: he wants to be the nation's next top bard, otherwise
> known
> as the Poet Laureate Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress.
> Were
> Ashcroft to succeed in landing the coveted post, the man often
> criticized
> for being a Bush administration "lightening rod" would have an
> opportunity
> to be an official lightning rod: for the poetic impulse of Americans.
>
> It's the job of the Poet Laureate, who serves for seven months and
> receives
> a $35,000 stipend, to raise the national consciousness to a greater
> appreciation of the reading and writing of poetry.
>
> How high can the eagle soar?
> Ashcroft's poetry credentials are based largely on the strength of a
> single
> verse, a lyric-ode hybrid entitled "Let the Eagle Soar." Fans of the
> former
> attorney general praise his skillful use of masculine syllable endings
> and
> strong end rhymes in "Eagle," placing him in the tradition of
> Longfellow,
> Byron, even Francis Scott Key. President Bush sent a signal of his
> strong
> support for Ashcroft's candidacy by making "Eagle" a centerpiece of
> his
> swearing-in ceremony in January. Guy Hovis, a Mississippi native and
> long-time performer on "The Lawrence Welk Show," performed the lyric
> ode.
>
>  "Let the eagle soar,
>  Like she's never soared before.
>  From rocky coast to golden shore,
>  Let the mighty eagle soar.
>  Soar with healing in her wings,
>  As the land beneath her sings:
>  'Only god, no other kings.'
>  This country's far too young to die.
>  We've still got a lot of climbing to do,
>  And we can make it if we try.
>  Built by toils and struggles
>  God has led us through."
>
>
> If Ashcroft successfully lands the position of primary poet, he'll
> replace
> Ted Kooser, selected to the post last fall, and the first Poet Laureate
> from
> the Great Plains.
>
>> From the right: conservative couplets
> While Ashcroft might seem like a shoe-in for the job, he's not the top
> choice of conservative religious leaders, despite their support for
> Ashcroft
> during his tenure as attorney general. The Coalition for Traditional
> Values,
> which includes leaders of pro-family groups such as the American
> Family
> Organization, the Campaign for Families and the Baptist Leadership
> Council,
> has thrown its support behind former Alabama chief Justice Roy Moore,
> author
> of the 1998 poem "Our American Birthright."
>
>  Our American Birthright
>
>  One nation under God was their cry and declaration,
>  Upon the law of Nature's God they built a mighty Nation.
>  For Unlike Mankind before them who had walked this earthen sod,
>  These men would never question the Sovereignty of God.
>
>  That all men were created was a truth "self-evident,"
>  To secure the rights God gave us was the role of government.
>  And if any form of government became destructive of this end,
>  It was their right, their duty, a new one to begin.
>
>  So with a firm reliance on Divine Providence for protection,
>  They pledged their sacred honor and sought His wise direction.
>  They lifted an appeal to God for all the world to see,
>  And declared their independence forever to be free.
>
>  I'm glad they're not with us to see the mess we're in,
>  How we've given up our righteousness for a life of indulgent sin.
>  For when abortion isn't murder and sodomy is deemed a right,
>  Then evil is now called good and darkness is now called light.
>
>  While truth and law were founded on the God of all Creation,
>  Man now, through law, denies the truth and calls it "separation."
>  No longer does man see a need for God when he's in full control,
>  For the only truth self-evident is in the latest poll.
>
>  But with man as his own master we fail to count the cost,
>  Our precious freedoms vanish and our liberty is lost.
>  Children are told they can't pray and they teach them evolution,
>  When will they learn the fear of God is the only true solution.
>
>  Our schools have become the battleground while all across the land,
>  Christians shrug their shoulders afraid to take a stand.
>  And from the grave their voices cry the victory has been won
>  Just glorify the Father as did His only Son.
>
>  When your work on earth is done, and you've traveled where we've
> trod,
>  You'll leave the land we left to you, One Nation Under God!
>
> "These are both godly men, but we believe that Roy Moore will make the
> better Poet Laureate," says Sandy Slokum, executive director of Defend
> Our
> Marriages, a pro-family group that advocates defending marriage by
> adding a
> ban on adultery to the constitution. While Slokum praises Ashcroft's
> "Eagle," she insists that Moore will do a better job of returning
> poetry to
> the family. "He's working on a beautiful poem called 'Ring of Gold'
> about
> traditional marriage and how God intended it to be the union of one man
> and
> one woman."
>
> Moore is best known not for his poetry, but for his intriguing position
> on
> the separation between church and state. Moore gained notoriety after
> he
> refused to remove a massive concrete statue of the Ten Commandments
> from his
> office in 2003.
>
> Poetry meets politics
> Not everyone is happy about the prospect that either Ashcroft or Moore
> could
> soon be the most prominent poet in the country. Some critics point out
> that
> this is probably the first time since the Library of Congress
> established
> the Poetry and Literature Center in 1936 that a candidate is being
> considered on the basis of a single poem. "This is outrageous on the
> face of
> it," says Donald Merkin, poet in residence at Eastern Illinois College
> and
> the author of Slaughter in the Chicken House: an Elegy. "The role of
> the
> Poet Laureate is to act as an ambassador of literary arts. Poets in
> the
> community worry Ashcroft will serve as a poetic mouthpiece for the
> Bush
> administration."
>
> This is not the first time that the poetry position has been dogged by
> controversy. Communist William Carlos Williams was appointed in 1952
> but
> never served. Williams' appointment was revoked with the understanding
> that
> he could be re-instated once he completed "loyalty procedures," but his
> term
> ended before he was able to prove that he wasn't a communist.
>
> Slokum and others complain that position of Poet Laureate has too often
> been
> meted out on the basis of political correctness, rather than the
> righteousness of the poetry. Of the 38 people appointed poet consultant
> or
> laureate, eight have been women and two, African-American.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Feb 17 11:12:34 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:12:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
In-Reply-To: <033901c51504$6c66b510$c5309b51@Robin>
References: <1e8.35201eb5.2f460afc@cs.com>
	<033901c51504$6c66b510$c5309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <16397783.1108656754786.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, February 17, 2005, at 10:23AM, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:

><<
>                  /          /               /             /
>       Th'expense of spirit in a waste of shame
>...
>Those who'd argue that "in" deserves a full stress simply because it's in a
>position in an iambic pentameter line where it ought to have a stress have,
>well, no ear.  But it's easy enough to write pentameter with no ear--the
>kind of leaden pentameters Pound was talking about in his metronome analogy.
>>>
>
>OK, I confess it, I have no ear.
>
>But doesn't "full stress" beg several questions?  "in" carries a higher (if
>not full) degree of stress than the second syllable in "spirit" and the
>following "a".  If you (as I do) follow Wimsatt&Beardsley and the idea of
>contrastive rather than absolute stress, "in" thus carries a metrical ictus,
>and you get :

For that line, you're right. But there's no required degree of relative strees between syllable in adjacent feet, only within a foot. So, if the line read

Th'expense of spirit in odd lusts and shame

"in" would still get a metrical stress, but the speech stress on the metrically unstressed "odd" is greater. 

I'm glad it doesn't read that way.


Mike S.
-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 17 11:29:27 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:29:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal
In-Reply-To: <BE398ADD.F8EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <42148017.3027.50AD90@localhost>

On 16 Feb 2005 at 23:42, David Graham wrote:
> Anyone care to comment on the formal qualities of this poem by yet
> another mystery poet?
 
> If
> 
> If your hair was brown   
> and isn?t now,
> if your hands were strong
> and now you falter,
> 
> if your eyes were sharp
> and now they blur,
> your step confident
> and now it?s careful--
> 
> you?ve had the world,
> such as you got.
> There?s nothing more,
> there never was.

Here's how I'd read it aloud:

IF your HAIR was BROWN
and ISn't NOW
IF your HANDS were STRONG
and NOW you FALter

IF your EYES were SHARP
and NOW they BLUR
your STEP CONfiDENT 
and NOW it's CAREful

you've HAD the WORLD
SUCH as you GOT
there's NOTHing MORE
there NEVer WAS.







From tad at opus40.org  Thu Feb 17 11:50:46 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:50:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Prine & Ted Kooser
References: <f6.4a570298.2f45704f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c51510$d69c3a70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

This I would definitely go out to see. And...wait...I might be in Washington then!

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 10:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] John Prine & Ted Kooser


  In a message dated 2/16/2005 8:41:42 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 


    Singer-Songwriter John Prine To Join Poet Laureate Ted Kooser in
    Conversation on March 9 The Poetry and Literature Center at the
    Library of Congress presents "A Literary Evening with John Prine
    and Ted Kooser" at 6:45 p.m. on Wednesday, March 9, in the
    Coolidge Auditorium of the Library's Thomas Jefferson Building,
    10 First St. S.E., Washington, D.C.

    Although this event is free and open to the public, seating is

  Man!  I'd like to see that one! Post it to wom-po, David! 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Feb 17 11:57:15 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:57:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal
References: <7a.6d4351a5.2f459317@cs.com>
Message-ID: <008601c51511$be1a0210$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I keep tripping over "your step confident"


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Formal


  In a message dated 2/16/2005 11:40:02 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 


    If

    If your hair was brown              5
    and isn?t now,                         4          
    if your hands were strong         5
    and now you falter,                  5

    if your eyes were sharp            5
    and now they blur,                   4
    your step confident                  5
    and now it?s careful--                5

    you?ve had the world,               4
    such as you got.                     4
    There?s nothing more,              4
    there never was.                      4

    It's not regularly syllabic, but I get two strong stresses per line.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Feb 17 12:11:53 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:11:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not a Parody
References: <s2146bbd.099@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <00fd01c51513$c9b4d300$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Kent - is this really for real?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:02 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not a Parody


> Speaking of Eliot Weinberger, just received this from him:
> 
> February 11, 2005
> Next up for Ashcroft: Poet Laureate?
> Former Attorney General John Ashcroft is a top contender to become the
> next
> Poet Laureate of the United States, say insiders. But the man who
> penned
> "Let the Eagle Soar" faces a stiff challenge from the favored candidate
> of
> conservative Christians: Roy Moore, former Alabama chief justice, and
> the
> author of "Our American Birthright."
> 
> 
> Some poets balk at idea of appointing a 'one-poem' poet
> 
> By Deanna Swift
> 
> WASHINGTON, DC-When Former Attorney General John Ashcroft bid a fond
> farewell to public service last month, he was intentionally vague about
> his
> plans for the future. Ashcroft has said only that he plans to remain in
> the
> Washington D.C. area and will give speeches.
> 
> But sources close to Ashcroft say that he has his eye on a very
> different
> prize these days: he wants to be the nation's next top bard, otherwise
> known
> as the Poet Laureate Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress.
> Were
> Ashcroft to succeed in landing the coveted post, the man often
> criticized
> for being a Bush administration "lightening rod" would have an
> opportunity
> to be an official lightning rod: for the poetic impulse of Americans.
> 
> It's the job of the Poet Laureate, who serves for seven months and
> receives
> a $35,000 stipend, to raise the national consciousness to a greater
> appreciation of the reading and writing of poetry.
> 
> How high can the eagle soar?
> Ashcroft's poetry credentials are based largely on the strength of a
> single
> verse, a lyric-ode hybrid entitled "Let the Eagle Soar." Fans of the
> former
> attorney general praise his skillful use of masculine syllable endings
> and
> strong end rhymes in "Eagle," placing him in the tradition of
> Longfellow,
> Byron, even Francis Scott Key. President Bush sent a signal of his
> strong
> support for Ashcroft's candidacy by making "Eagle" a centerpiece of
> his
> swearing-in ceremony in January. Guy Hovis, a Mississippi native and
> long-time performer on "The Lawrence Welk Show," performed the lyric
> ode.
> 
>  "Let the eagle soar,
>  Like she's never soared before.
>  From rocky coast to golden shore,
>  Let the mighty eagle soar.
>  Soar with healing in her wings,
>  As the land beneath her sings:
>  'Only god, no other kings.'
>  This country's far too young to die.
>  We've still got a lot of climbing to do,
>  And we can make it if we try.
>  Built by toils and struggles
>  God has led us through."
> 
> 
> If Ashcroft successfully lands the position of primary poet, he'll
> replace
> Ted Kooser, selected to the post last fall, and the first Poet Laureate
> from
> the Great Plains.
> 
>>From the right: conservative couplets
> While Ashcroft might seem like a shoe-in for the job, he's not the top
> choice of conservative religious leaders, despite their support for
> Ashcroft
> during his tenure as attorney general. The Coalition for Traditional
> Values,
> which includes leaders of pro-family groups such as the American
> Family
> Organization, the Campaign for Families and the Baptist Leadership
> Council,
> has thrown its support behind former Alabama chief Justice Roy Moore,
> author
> of the 1998 poem "Our American Birthright."
> 
>  Our American Birthright
> 
>  One nation under God was their cry and declaration,
>  Upon the law of Nature's God they built a mighty Nation.
>  For Unlike Mankind before them who had walked this earthen sod,
>  These men would never question the Sovereignty of God.
> 
>  That all men were created was a truth "self-evident,"
>  To secure the rights God gave us was the role of government.
>  And if any form of government became destructive of this end,
>  It was their right, their duty, a new one to begin.
> 
>  So with a firm reliance on Divine Providence for protection,
>  They pledged their sacred honor and sought His wise direction.
>  They lifted an appeal to God for all the world to see,
>  And declared their independence forever to be free.
> 
>  I'm glad they're not with us to see the mess we're in,
>  How we've given up our righteousness for a life of indulgent sin.
>  For when abortion isn't murder and sodomy is deemed a right,
>  Then evil is now called good and darkness is now called light.
> 
>  While truth and law were founded on the God of all Creation,
>  Man now, through law, denies the truth and calls it "separation."
>  No longer does man see a need for God when he's in full control,
>  For the only truth self-evident is in the latest poll.
> 
>  But with man as his own master we fail to count the cost,
>  Our precious freedoms vanish and our liberty is lost.
>  Children are told they can't pray and they teach them evolution,
>  When will they learn the fear of God is the only true solution.
> 
>  Our schools have become the battleground while all across the land,
>  Christians shrug their shoulders afraid to take a stand.
>  And from the grave their voices cry the victory has been won
>  Just glorify the Father as did His only Son.
> 
>  When your work on earth is done, and you've traveled where we've
> trod,
>  You'll leave the land we left to you, One Nation Under God!
> 
> "These are both godly men, but we believe that Roy Moore will make the
> better Poet Laureate," says Sandy Slokum, executive director of Defend
> Our
> Marriages, a pro-family group that advocates defending marriage by
> adding a
> ban on adultery to the constitution. While Slokum praises Ashcroft's
> "Eagle," she insists that Moore will do a better job of returning
> poetry to
> the family. "He's working on a beautiful poem called 'Ring of Gold'
> about
> traditional marriage and how God intended it to be the union of one man
> and
> one woman."
> 
> Moore is best known not for his poetry, but for his intriguing position
> on
> the separation between church and state. Moore gained notoriety after
> he
> refused to remove a massive concrete statue of the Ten Commandments
> from his
> office in 2003.
> 
> Poetry meets politics
> Not everyone is happy about the prospect that either Ashcroft or Moore
> could
> soon be the most prominent poet in the country. Some critics point out
> that
> this is probably the first time since the Library of Congress
> established
> the Poetry and Literature Center in 1936 that a candidate is being
> considered on the basis of a single poem. "This is outrageous on the
> face of
> it," says Donald Merkin, poet in residence at Eastern Illinois College
> and
> the author of Slaughter in the Chicken House: an Elegy. "The role of
> the
> Poet Laureate is to act as an ambassador of literary arts. Poets in
> the
> community worry Ashcroft will serve as a poetic mouthpiece for the
> Bush
> administration."
> 
> This is not the first time that the poetry position has been dogged by
> controversy. Communist William Carlos Williams was appointed in 1952
> but
> never served. Williams' appointment was revoked with the understanding
> that
> he could be re-instated once he completed "loyalty procedures," but his
> term
> ended before he was able to prove that he wasn't a communist.
> 
> Slokum and others complain that position of Poet Laureate has too often
> been
> meted out on the basis of political correctness, rather than the
> righteousness of the poetry. Of the 38 people appointed poet consultant
> or
> laureate, eight have been women and two, African-American.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>



From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 17 12:13:32 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:13:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal
In-Reply-To: <008601c51511$be1a0210$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <42148A6C.14214.7908BF@localhost>

On 17 Feb 2005 at 11:57, The Old Mole wrote:
> I keep tripping over "your step confident"

Yes, it's the odd bit, isn't it. But it's like that "in" that Sam was 
talking about: the "dent" is just slightly more emphasized than the 
"fi", and a good deal less emphasized than the "con". Still, in just 
reading it aloud, "CON fi dent and NOW" is very hard to do -- those 
three schwa sounds in a row are difficult for native English speakers 
-- or at least for me. I put a slight bit more accent on "dent" 
pretty much no matter how I try to read it without accent, and with 
the line break after "dent" it seems that it must be slightly 
accented. It's not like the "er" of "falter", either, where 
emphasizing the "er" in any way creates a very bad clang on the ear.

Marcus



>     ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Formal
> 
> In a message dated 2/16/2005 11:40:02 PM Central Standard Time, 
> grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
>     If
> 
>     If your hair was brown 5
>     and isn?t now, 4 
>     if your hands were strong 5
>     and now you falter, 5
> 
>     if your eyes were sharp 5
>     and now they blur, 4
>     your step confident 5
>     and now it?s careful-- 5
> 
>     you?ve had the world, 4
>     such as you got. 4
>     There?s nothing more, 4
>     there never was. 4
> 
>     It's not regularly syllabic, but I get two strong stresses per
>     line.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Feb 17 12:29:48 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:29:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not a Parody
In-Reply-To: <00fd01c51513$c9b4d300$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <s2146bbd.099@mail.highland.edu>
	<00fd01c51513$c9b4d300$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <926550.1108661388352.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, February 17, 2005, at 12:15PM, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

>Kent - is this really for real?
>
>
Nope. It's from a parody site.

The Swift Report (http://swiftreport.blogs.com/news/) , sole source for this "news," also recently printed these gems:

February 15, 2005
More Aircraft Laser Incidents Pinned on Gay Club-GoersFBI agents have traced another airline laser incident to a gay nightclub, this one in Dallas, TX.  Last year, after pilots began complaining of laser beams penetrating their cockpits, investigators linked the green beams to gay nightclubs around the country, where laser wielders use the green rays to shine a light on club ?hotties.?
http://swiftreport.blogs.com/news/2005/02/more_aircraft_l.html


Bush: Banning Gay Marriage Could Cut Deficit in Half
>From lofty rhetoric and audacious proposals to unforgettable symbolism and first-rate costuming, the President's State of the Union address this week was a must-see event. In this official Swift Report wrap-up, we break down the best?and the even better.
http://swiftreport.blogs.com/news/2005/02/banning_gay_mar.html



February 02, 2005
Bush State of the Union to Identify New 'Axis of Evil': SpongeBob, Buster and Winnie the Pooh

In the first State of the Union address of his second term, President Bush is expected to warn Americans to prepare themselves to confront three cartoon ?evildoers? in their midst: SpongeBob, Buster and Winnie the Pooh. But despite tough talk from the White House, insiders say that the administration is deeply divided on whether to open a new line of attack against Buster before declaring victory in its campaign against SpongeBob SquarePants, the openly homosexual underwater cartoon icon.



My favorite is this one, though --
http://swiftreport.blogs.com/news/science/index.html
WASHINGTON, DC?Personnel at the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) are in a state of high excitement these days as they await the unveiling of a state-of-the-art computing system. Some of the best brains in the country have spent years designing the machines that will soon power the extensive investigation operations of the FBI. 

When the Trilogy 36,000 is finally activated, the agency will be able to perform tasks that have long lain outside its reach, including complex computation of numbers containing as many as 10 digits.

No small operation
Installing the powerful Trilogy 36,000 has proved no easy feat for the many scientists, engineers and computer professionals involved in the FBI upgrade project. The ?electronic brain? weighs 5 tons and measures 51 feet across and can perform 5,000 operations per second. The magic behind this dazzling machinery: a dense network of electronic tubes. 

?The machine in operation is spectacular to see,? says Dr. Stan Seeber, the FBI?s director of computational analysis. ?Thousands of neon lamps flash on and off, while relays and switches buzz almost continuously. It is truly a site to behold.?





From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 17 12:44:39 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:44:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <1ab.326e7ecc.2f463207@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2005 9:22:49 AM Central Standard Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> <<
>                   /          /               /             /
>        Th'expense of spirit in a waste of shame
> ...
> Those who'd argue that "in" deserves a full stress simply because it's in a
> position in an iambic pentameter line where it ought to have a stress have,
> well, no ear.  But it's easy enough to write pentameter with no ear--the
> kind of leaden pentameters Pound was talking about in his metronome analogy.
> >>
> 
> OK, I confess it, I have no ear.
> 
> But doesn't "full stress" beg several questions?  "in" carries a higher (if
> not full) degree of stress than the second syllable in "spirit" and the
> following "a".  If you (as I do) follow Wimsatt&Beardsley and the idea of
> contrastive rather than absolute stress, "in" thus carries a metrical ictus,
> and you get :
> 
Of course it ("in") does because it's in a position where a stress would fall 
in a perfectly regular line.  And even though this is the first line of a 
sonnet, the "metrical contract" is in effect since virtually anyone reading it 
would know in advance it was iambic pentameter (except, perhaps, a freshman 
English student, who wouldn't be able to make any kind of sense of it).  I'm just 
saying that if you get into secondary stresses, relative stresses (why only 4 
levels?  why not 6?  or 10?), or whatever your system dissolves in 
subjectivity and the endless arguments about the precision of visual scansion get 
endlesser.  Tim Steele and I have argued about this; he doesn't believe in the 
pyrrhic foot and doesn't have much faith in the spondee either.  I've always asked 
him to scan his own name and tell me there's no such thing as a spondee.  We 
continue to differ.  I say "Sam Gwynn" is spondaic.

The problem is what to do with single syllable words in iambic lines; words 
of more than one syllable are always going to have at least one stressed 
syllable, sometime more.  I was explaining today the "victory" in Herber's "Easter 
Wings" has to go / u / because it's at the end of a line that rhymes with other 
lines endinging in "thee" and "me."  If it were in the middle of a line it 
could conceivable be two syllables (syncope: vict'ry) or three: "In victory, 
Priam perished by his throne" vs. "In the victory Priam was killed at his 
throne".

My general rule for students is that in iambic lines these single-syllable 
words rarely get stresses:

articles
conjunctions (coordinating and subordinating)
relative pronouns, adjectives, adverbs

These are toss-ups, depending on position:

personal pronouns
linking verbs (forms of "to be")
demonstratives (this, that, these, those)
numerals
indefinite pronouns (few, none)
adverbs

These generally get a stress:

verbs
nouns
adjectives
interjections
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 17 12:50:12 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:50:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not a Parody
Message-ID: <60.4f8ce8cd.2f463354@cs.com>

This is just blog-crap, nothing more.  "say insiders" indeed.  You can Google 
it up to find its source.




In a message dated 2/17/2005 10:10:03 AM Central Standard Time, 
kpaul at mallasch.com writes: 
> 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> man, if it happens, i *am* going to canada...
> 
> -kpaul
> mallasch.com/mug/
> 
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Kent Johnson wrote:
> 
> >Speaking of Eliot Weinberger, just received this from him:
> >
> >February 11, 2005
> >Next up for Ashcroft: Poet Laureate?
> >Former Attorney General John Ashcroft is a top contender to become the
> >next
> >Poet Laureate of the United States, say insiders. But the man who
> >penned
> >"Let the Eagle Soar" faces a stiff challenge from the favored candidate
> >of
> >conservative Christians: Roy Moore, former Alabama chief justice, and
> >the
> >author of "Our American Birthright."
> >
> >
> >Some poets balk at idea of appointing a 'one-poem' poet
> >
> >By Deanna Swift
> >
> >WASHINGTON, DC-When Former Attorney General John Ashcroft bid a fond
> >farewell to public service last month, he was intentionally vague about
> >his
> >plans for the future. Ashcroft has said only that he plans to remain in
> >the
> >Washington D.C. area and will give speeches.
> >
> >But sources close to Ashcroft say that he has his eye on a very
> >different
> >prize these days: he wants to be the nation's next top bard, otherwise
> >known
> >as the Poet Laureate Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress.
> >Were
> >Ashcroft to succeed in landing the coveted post, the man often
> >criticized
> >for being a Bush administration "lightening rod" would have an
> >opportunity
> >to be an official lightning rod: for the poetic impulse of Americans.
> >
> >It's the job of the Poet Laureate, who serves for seven months and
> >receives
> >a $35,000 stipend, to raise the national consciousness to a greater
> >appreciation of the reading and writing of poetry.
> >
> >How high can the eagle soar?
> >Ashcroft's poetry credentials are based largely on the strength of a
> >single
> >verse, a lyric-ode hybrid entitled "Let the Eagle Soar." Fans of the
> >former
> >attorney general praise his skillful use of masculine syllable endings
> >and
> >strong end rhymes in "Eagle," placing him in the tradition of
> >Longfellow,
> >Byron, even Francis Scott Key. President Bush sent a signal of his
> >strong
> >support for Ashcroft's candidacy by making "Eagle" a centerpiece of
> >his
> >swearing-in ceremony in January. Guy Hovis, a Mississippi native and
> >long-time performer on "The Lawrence Welk Show," performed the lyric
> >ode.
> >
> >  "Let the eagle soar,
> >  Like she's never soared before.
> >  From rocky coast to golden shore,
> >  Let the mighty eagle soar.
> >  Soar with healing in her wings,
> >  As the land beneath her sings:
> >  'Only god, no other kings.'
> >  This country's far too young to die.
> >  We've still got a lot of climbing to do,
> >  And we can make it if we try.
> >  Built by toils and struggles
> >  God has led us through."
> >
> >
> >If Ashcroft successfully lands the position of primary poet, he'll
> >replace
> >Ted Kooser, selected to the post last fall, and the first Poet Laureate
> >from
> >the Great Plains.
> >
> >>From the right: conservative couplets
> >While Ashcroft might seem like a shoe-in for the job, he's not the top
> >choice of conservative religious leaders, despite their support for
> >Ashcroft
> >during his tenure as attorney general. The Coalition for Traditional
> >Values,
> >which includes leaders of pro-family groups such as the American
> >Family
> >Organization, the Campaign for Families and the Baptist Leadership
> >Council,
> >has thrown its support behind former Alabama chief Justice Roy Moore,
> >author
> >of the 1998 poem "Our American Birthright."
> >
> >  Our American Birthright
> >
> >  One nation under God was their cry and declaration,
> >  Upon the law of Nature's God they built a mighty Nation.
> >  For Unlike Mankind before them who had walked this earthen sod,
> >  These men would never question the Sovereignty of God.
> >
> >  That all men were created was a truth "self-evident,"
> >  To secure the rights God gave us was the role of government.
> >  And if any form of government became destructive of this end,
> >  It was their right, their duty, a new one to begin.
> >
> >  So with a firm reliance on Divine Providence for protection,
> >  They pledged their sacred honor and sought His wise direction.
> >  They lifted an appeal to God for all the world to see,
> >  And declared their independence forever to be free.
> >
> >  I'm glad they're not with us to see the mess we're in,
> >  How we've given up our righteousness for a life of indulgent sin.
> >  For when abortion isn't murder and sodomy is deemed a right,
> >  Then evil is now called good and darkness is now called light.
> >
> >  While truth and law were founded on the God of all Creation,
> >  Man now, through law, denies the truth and calls it "separation."
> >  No longer does man see a need for God when he's in full control,
> >  For the only truth self-evident is in the latest poll.
> >
> >  But with man as his own master we fail to count the cost,
> >  Our precious freedoms vanish and our liberty is lost.
> >  Children are told they can't pray and they teach them evolution,
> >  When will they learn the fear of God is the only true solution.
> >
> >  Our schools have become the battleground while all across the land,
> >  Christians shrug their shoulders afraid to take a stand.
> >  And from the grave their voices cry the victory has been won
> >  Just glorify the Father as did His only Son.
> >
> >  When your work on earth is done, and you've traveled where we've
> >trod,
> >  You'll leave the land we left to you, One Nation Under God!
> >
> >"These are both godly men, but we believe that Roy Moore will make the
> >better Poet Laureate," says Sandy Slokum, executive director of Defend
> >Our
> >Marriages, a pro-family group that advocates defending marriage by
> >adding a
> >ban on adultery to the constitution. While Slokum praises Ashcroft's
> >"Eagle," she insists that Moore will do a better job of returning
> >poetry to
> >the family. "He's working on a beautiful poem called 'Ring of Gold'
> >about
> >traditional marriage and how God intended it to be the union of one man
> >and
> >one woman."
> >
> >Moore is best known not for his poetry, but for his intriguing position
> >on
> >the separation between church and state. Moore gained notoriety after
> >he
> >refused to remove a massive concrete statue of the Ten Commandments
> >from his
> >office in 2003.
> >
> >Poetry meets politics
> >Not everyone is happy about the prospect that either Ashcroft or Moore
> >could
> >soon be the most prominent poet in the country. Some critics point out
> >that
> >this is probably the first time since the Library of Congress
> >established
> >the Poetry and Literature Center in 1936 that a candidate is being
> >considered on the basis of a single poem. "This is outrageous on the
> >face of
> >it," says Donald Merkin, poet in residence at Eastern Illinois College
> >and
> >the author of Slaughter in the Chicken House: an Elegy. "The role of
> >the
> >Poet Laureate is to act as an ambassador of literary arts. Poets in
> >the
> >community worry Ashcroft will serve as a poetic mouthpiece for the
> >Bush
> >administration."
> >
> >This is not the first time that the poetry position has been dogged by
> >controversy. Communist William Carlos Williams was appointed in 1952
> >but
> >never served. Williams' appointment was revoked with the understanding
> >that
> >he could be re-instated once he completed "loyalty procedures," but his
> >term
> >ended before he was able to prove that he wasn't a communist.
> >
> >Slokum and others complain that position of Poet Laureate has too often
> >been
> >meted out on the basis of political correctness, rather than the
> >righteousness of the poetry. Of the 38 people appointed poet consultant
> >or
> >laureate, eight have been women and two, African-American.
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 17 12:33:23 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:33:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New p037ry Technique: |_337 $p34k
In-Reply-To: <16397783.1108656754786.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <033901c51504$6c66b510$c5309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <42148F13.24642.8B339D@localhost>

|_337 $p34k p037ry 

The term "leet" could be written as "|_337," with "|_" replacing the 
letter L, "3" posing as a backwards letter E, and "7" resembling the 
letter T. "0" (zero) will typically replace the letter "O."

Characters of similar appearance can be used to replace the letters 
they resemble. For example, "5" or even "$" can replace the letter S. 
Applying this style, "leet speek" can be written as "|_33t 5p33k" or 
even "1337 $p34k," with "4" replacing the letter A.

Letters may be substituted for other letters that may sound alike. 
Using "Z" for a final letter S, and "X" for words ending in the 
letters C or K is common. For example, leetspeekers might refer to 
their computer "5x1llz" (skills).

Rules of grammar are rarely obeyed. Many leetspeekers will capitalize 
every letter except for vowels (LiKe THiS) and otherwise reject 
conventional English style and grammar.

Mistakes are often uncorrected. Common typing misspellings (or typos) 
such as "teh" instead of "the" are left uncorrected and may be 
adopted to replace the correct spelling.

Non-alphanumeric characters may be combined to form letters. For 
example, using slashes to create "/\/\" can substitute for the letter 
M, and two pipes combined with a hyphen to form "|-|" is often used 
in place of the letter H. Thus, the word "ham" could be written as "|-
|4/\/\."

It's important to remember that the leetspeek community encourages 
new forms and awards individual creativity, resulting in a dynamic 
written language that eludes conformity or consistency. However, 
there are a few standard terms. The following is a sample of key 
words that haven't changed fundamentally (although variations occur) 
since the invention of leetspeek. 

?"warez" or "w4r3z": Illegally copied software available for 
download.
?"h4x": Read as "hacks," or what a computer hacker does.
?"sploitz" (short for exploits): Vulnerabilities in computer software 
used by hackers.
?"pwn": A typo-deliberate version of own, a slang term that means to 
dominate. This could also be spelled "0\/\/n3d" or "pwn3d," among 
other variations. Online video game bullies or "griefers" often use 
this term.

Other common leet words:
?"kewl": A common derivation of "cool."
?"m4d sk1llz" or "mad skills": Refers to one's own talent. "m4d" 
itself is often used for emphasis.
?"n00b," "noob," "newbie," or "newb": Combinations synonymous with 
new user. Some leetspeekers view "n00b" as an insult and "newbie" as 
an affectionate term for new users.
?"w00t" or the smiley character \o/: A common interjection, analogous 
to "woohoo!"
?"rox0rs" Used in place of "rocks," typically to describe something 
impressive.
?"d00d": Replaces the greeting or addressing someone as a "dude."
?"joo" and "u": Used instead of "you." This is also commonly written 
as "j00" or "_|00."
?"ph": often replaces "f," as in "phear" for "fear" (as in "ph34r my 
l33t skillz") and vice versa, such as spelling "phonetic" as 
"f0|\|371(."

Enjoy. or, rather 3n_|0y.

Marcus





From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Thu Feb 17 13:16:53 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:16:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s21460d3.010@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21460d3.010@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050217121547.0355fec0@mail.ilstu.edu>

oh, THAT guy. Yeah I've read the Earl of Rochester before. Can't remember 
where but it was in the last two or three years.

>The Earl of Rochester.
>
>
>_______________________________________________



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Feb 17 06:50:01 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:50:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Was Formalism?
In-Reply-To: <s212546f.015@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <BE39E109.82CE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Why does Eliot Whine-burger undercut his own argument about how mediocre New
Formalism is by quoting the following lines from a first rate poem?

"Blue Jay" ("A sound like a rusty pump beneath our window/ Woke us at dawn.
Drawing the curtains back,/ We saw -- through milky light, above the
doghouse -- / A blue jay lecturing a neighbor's cat."


Paul Lake




On 2/15/05 7:58 PM, "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

> Eliot Weinberger:  "What Was Formalism?" (By the way, Eliot Weinberger has
> recently published [in the London Review of Books and now on its website] what
> has already become perhaps the most widely read anaphoric poem [oh, dare I
> call it that?] of the last one hundred years. It goes on for about a hundred
> pages, too-- a litany of the lies of the Bush administration.) But here's the
> link to his hilarious and dismantling essay on the so-called New Formalism:
> 
> http://www.jacketmagazine.com/06/wein-form.html
> 
> (excerpt)
> ...I began to suspect that the vaunted strictures of the New Formalism were
> rather like the rules in a household with small children: tiny attempts at
> maintaining order, frequently reiterated, and rarely observed. Very few Rebel
> Angels attempted anything more difficult than a sonnet, and only a few even
> tried their hands at these. Many of the poems merely kept to regular stanza
> forms, without rhyme -- as countless "free verse" poems do. The rhymes
> themselves were astonishingly banal (brook/book, well/tell, park/dark,
> eye/sky, storm/warm, etc); not a one even approached the wit of popular song:
> Bob Dylan ("the pump don't work/ 'cause the vandals/ took the handles") or
> Smokey Robinson or Moss Hart or Curtis Mayfield or John Lennon or nearly any
> song by Cole Porter ("Let's throw away anxiety, let's quite forget propriety,/
> Respectable society, the rector and his piety,/ And contemplate l'amour in all
> its infinite variety,/ My dear, let's talk about love.").
>     And nearly every poem was written in three, four, or five feet of iambs.
> What is difficult, as Pound said at the beginning of the century, is not to
> write in iambs: "to break the HEAVE." After all, most of what we say in
> English is an unstressed monosyllabic personal pronoun or possessive or
> preposition or article followed by a stressed monosyllabic noun or verb (one
> iamb) or a disyllabic noun or verb stressed on its first syllable (one and a
> half iambs). Most polysyllabic words have alternating stresses. When one adds
> the permissible trochee at the beginning of the line, the permissible anapests
> anywhere, and all the other little infractions -- exceptions that are supposed
> to make the rule -- it may well be that the iamb is no more a formal quality
> than standard spelling.
>     Add to this the facts that the division into strictly stressed and
> unstressed syllables is inappropriate to English, that a line may have many
> possible scansions according to how it is read ("Shall I compare thee to a
> summer's day?"), and that off-rhymes, some quite far-fetched, "count" in a
> rhyme-scheme, and we are left with a system of measurement as organic and
> untechnical as Williams' much-derided "variable foot" (which, by the way, is
> what English-language poets have always practiced). The only American
> formalists of the century may well turn out to be Louis Zukofsky, John Cage,
> and Jackson Mac Low, who invented their own, idiosyncratic and inflexible
> rules: placement of letters according to mathematical or mystical formulae,
> predetermined word lists and selection processes, and so on.
>     I'm sorry, but these Rebel Angels are wimps, caf? Republicans measuring
> out their lives in coffee spoons that keep changing size. For real formalism,
> we must go to the Old Formalism, to the days when forms were forms and form
> had nothing to do with etiquette. We must go back, that is, to the Vikings:
> Viking formalism meant, for example, that to write a mere epitaph of ordinary
> statements and sentiments for a tomb -- such as "Here lies a warrior famed for
> his virtue. Denmark will never know a more honorable sea-captain, or one
> stronger in battle" -- one began with a common stanza form, such as the
> dr?ttkvatt. 
>     This stanza form had eight lines, broken into two half-stanzas of four
> lines, each expressing a single thought, that were, in turn, divided into two
> couplets. Each line had six syllables; only three could be stressed (and Old
> Norse, as one can imagine, had genuine stresses). The first line of each
> couplet had to have two stressed syllables that began with the same sound,
> which was also the sound of the first stressed syllable in the next line. (The
> other stressed syllables could not be alliterate.) The two stressed
> alliterative syllables in the first line could not rhyme; but the first
> stressed alliterative syllable in the second line had to rhyme with another
> syllable in the same line to which it was not alliterative.
>     
> The word order was completely unlike that of prose. For example, the structure
> of a normal prose sentence of 16 words (taking 1, 2, 3, etc., as the words in
> their proper prose order) looks like this in a relatively simple half-stanza:
> 
> 
> 2    4    5    3
> 1    8    9    6    7
> 12   10   13   14
> 11   15   16   
> 
> 
> In a more complex poem, poetic syntax is further stretched by fragmenting and
> reassembling the clauses. For example, back to the sea-captain and the first
> half-stanza. ("Here lies a warrior famed for his virtue . . . ") The poet
> employs a kenning, or epithet, for warrior ("the one who carried out the work
> of ?rudr, goddess of battles"), and the whole sentence reads literally: "Under
> this mound is hidden the one who carried out the work of ?rudr, goddess of
> battles, whom the greatest virtues accompanied; most men knew that." (Though
> the Old Norse only has 15 words.)
>     The poem (keeping the literal English prose syntax) breaks this into
> something like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Under this mound     whom the greatest
> most men knew that     virtues
> accompanied     the one who carried out the work of ?rudr
> goddess of battles     is hidden
> 
> 
> 
> The pattern of clauses is:
> 
> 
> 1     3
> 4     3
> 3     2
> 2     1    
> 
> 
> This was merely a tombstone epitaph, not a particularly memorable poem. It was
> written, as all poetry was, in a single line. (The ragged right-hand margin is
> a by-product of the availability of cheap paper.) There were no spaces between
> the words. The form of the poem was musically, not visually, evident -- and
> evident to all its readers or listeners -- and was only one of many such
> forms, most of them even more complex.
>     In a famous Icelandic story in the sagas, Hallbj?rn of ?ingvellir wanted
> to compose a poem in praise of a dead poet. He fell asleep on the poet's
> burial mound and dreamed that the mound opened, a tall man appeared, and said,
> "There you lie, Hallbj?rn of ?ingvellir, trying to do something you are
> incapable of doing -- composing a poem in praise of me." The dead poet then
> taught Hallbj?rn all the forms while he dreamed. They took many years to
> master, but in the end he wrote his poem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Feb 17 14:26:22 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:26:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Internet Archive, audio materials
Message-ID: <14.3f3f36d6.2f4649de@aol.com>

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=mediatype%3Aaudio%20AND%20collection%3
Anaropa

Take a look at these recordings. I'm still working
on web-radio project and I ran into this nice collection
of recordings.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Feb 17 14:40:57 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:40:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal
Message-ID: <90.57b68c85.2f464d49@aol.com>

Stevie Smith? is my guess. I'm not so crazy as to step
into a discussion of prosodic merit, or lack thereof, 
with the crew at hand. 
Finnegan

In a message dated 2/17/2005 12:40:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:
Anyone care to comment on the formal qualities of this poem by yet another
mystery poet?


If

If your hair was brown
and isn?t now,
if your hands were strong
and now you falter,

if your eyes were sharp
and now they blur,
your step confident
and now it?s careful--

you?ve had the world,
such as you got.
There?s nothing more,
there never was.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Feb 17 15:31:51 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:31:51 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Internet Archive, audio materials
References: <14.3f3f36d6.2f4649de@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00af01c5152f$b787e570$2eaa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>

You dug out a treasure!

Thank you, I will link it on my blooogh, cheers,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:26 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Internet Archive, audio materials


  http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=mediatype%3Aaudio%20AND%20collection%3Anaropa

  Take a look at these recordings. I'm still working
  on web-radio project and I ran into this nice collection
  of recordings.
  Finnegan


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 15:58:20 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:58:20 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <1e8.35201eb5.2f460afc@cs.com><033901c51504$6c66b510$c5309b51@Robin>
	<16397783.1108656754786.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <009001c51533$69cd3a20$f19c9951@Robin>

From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>

> >But doesn't "full stress" beg several questions?  "in" carries a higher
(if
> >not full) degree of stress than the second syllable in "spirit" and the
> >following "a".  If you (as I do) follow Wimsatt&Beardsley and the idea of
> >contrastive rather than absolute stress, "in" thus carries a metrical
ictus,
> >and you get :
>
> For that line, you're right. But there's no required degree of relative
strees between syllable in adjacent feet, only within a foot. So, if the
line read
>
> Th'expense of spirit in odd lusts and shame
>
> "in" would still get a metrical stress, but the speech stress on the
metrically unstressed "odd" is greater.

Other questions aside, intriguing as they are, actually I *wouldn't* give
"in" a metrical stress in your re-written line, but read it thusly:

               X     /     X  /  X  X    /     /      X      /

          Th'expense of spirit in odd lusts and shame

... two iambs, a lesser ionic ascending foot, and a final iamb.

But that's me, and I'm sure there are cases to be made other than or around
this.

> I'm glad it doesn't read that way.
>
> Mike S.

Me too.

    <g>

Robin




From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Thu Feb 17 16:29:42 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:29:42 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <050b01c514b8$f8660260$3b9f9951@Robin>
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050216203307.03109ec0@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<050b01c514b8$f8660260$3b9f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050217120601.032b5270@mail.ilstu.edu>

Then Robin went,

<<(I seem to be inhabiting the same parallel universe as Michael.  <g>)>>

I tried to get into Dover once from the Ostend ferry when I was 20 but the 
border officer turned me back for having too little money (300 
Deutschmarks) and the number for a London bricklayer on my hand: he accused 
me correctly of wanting to find a job. Plus I called him an ass.

<< the general consensus is (or was) that much post-Chaucerian poetry
was distorted by the loss of the final unaccented e (which would apply
whether this was a speech phenomenon or a local lterary one).>>

Exactly what I said: the loss of the schwa.

G



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 17 16:41:19 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:41:19 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <84.3f6737ac.2f46697f@cs.com>

Who was it once began a poem "Th'expense of spirits is a dirty shame"?



In a message dated 2/17/2005 2:59:10 PM Central Standard Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
> 
> >>But doesn't "full stress" beg several questions?  "in" carries a higher
> (if
> >>not full) degree of stress than the second syllable in "spirit" and the
> >>following "a".  If you (as I do) follow Wimsatt&Beardsley and the idea of
> >>contrastive rather than absolute stress, "in" thus carries a metrical
> ictus,
> >>and you get :
> >
> >For that line, you're right. But there's no required degree of relative
> strees between syllable in adjacent feet, only within a foot. So, if the
> line read
> >
> >Th'expense of spirit in odd lusts and shame
> >
> >"in" would still get a metrical stress, but the speech stress on the
> metrically unstressed "odd" is greater.
> 
> Other questions aside, intriguing as they are, actually I *wouldn't* give
> "in" a metrical stress in your re-written line, but read it thusly:
> 
>                X     /     X  /  X  X    /     /      X      /
> 
>           Th'expense of spirit in odd lusts and shame
> 
> ... two iambs, a lesser ionic ascending foot, and a final iamb.
> 
> But that's me, and I'm sure there are cases to be made other than or around
> this.
> 
> >I'm glad it doesn't read that way.
> >
> >Mike S.
> 
> Me too.
> 
>     <g>
> 
> Robin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 17:04:50 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:04:50 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s212502b.013@mail.highland.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216005254.0335e678@mail.ilstu.edu><037401c5144d$9e003c20$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216124630.03125878@mail.ilstu.edu><03e001c5145d$3723bc10$3b9f9951@Robin><6.0.3.0.2.20050216144603.03168018@mail.ilstu.edu><6.0.3.0.2.20050216145715.03192700@mail.ilstu.edu><1108593966.4213cd2e09d97@webmail.ukonline.net><6.0.3.0.2.20050216203307.03109ec0@mail.ilstu.edu><050b01c514b8$f8660260$3b9f9951@Robin>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050217120601.032b5270@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <00a601c5153c$b457ef50$f19c9951@Robin>

> << the general consensus is (or was) that much post-Chaucerian poetry
> was distorted by the loss of the final unaccented e (which would apply
> whether this was a speech phenomenon or a local lterary one).>>
>
> Exactly what I said: the loss of the schwa.
>
> G

I should have caught that, Gabe, and I think it was somewhere in the back of
what passes for my mind.

But I'd never heard the phenomenon referred to in those terms before (that
may be my ignorance), plus a schwa can occur in any position in a word, not
simply final;  further, not all unaccented vowels are schaws.

(Well, yeah, OK, in a disyllabic word, the schaw could only occur at the
end.  But in polysyllabic words?  Though god help me, I can't think of an
example off-hand, but then at this particular point of this particular day,
I can barely remember what my name is.)

So it wasn't strictly the loss of the schwa, as not all schaws were lost
between say 1350-1450, even final-syllable ones if they were followed by a
consonant;  and -- at least orthographically -- what was lost was
specifically the pronounciation of the final "e".

If that makes sense ...

(I'm falling asleep at the keyboard after a long day and watching the film
of The Magic Roundabout with my kids, so it's entirely possible that I'm no
longer making even remote sense.

Even to myself.

So I'd better post no more tonight, crawl off to bed, and let Darling Only
Son onto the computer.)

Robin






From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 17 17:08:24 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:08:24 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <84.3f6737ac.2f46697f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00b601c5153d$3381a550$f19c9951@Robin>

<<
Who was it once began a poem "Th'expense of spirits is a dirty shame"?
>>

Hugh MacDiarmid?  Flann O'Brien?

... has to be some variety of Celt anyhow.

Robin



From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Feb 17 17:09:06 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:09:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
In-Reply-To: <84.3f6737ac.2f46697f@cs.com>
References: <84.3f6737ac.2f46697f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <5459891.1108678146405.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Wendy Cope, but I'm not sure that's the exact wording. It's one of Strugnell's Sonnets, maybe?


On Thursday, February 17, 2005, at 04:42PM, <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

>
><<Original Attached>>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
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From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Feb 17 17:14:52 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:14:52 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
In-Reply-To: <00b601c5153d$3381a550$f19c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <ECOWS06MDPHprp5yLZ800004037@smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk>

Would either of them do something as foppish as Th' ? 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of 
> Robin Hamilton
> Sent: 17 February 2005 22:08
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
> 
> <<
> Who was it once began a poem "Th'expense of spirits is a dirty shame"?
> >>
> 
> Hugh MacDiarmid?  Flann O'Brien?
> 
> ... has to be some variety of Celt anyhow.
> 
> Robin
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 




From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Feb 17 17:57:52 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:57:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
In-Reply-To: <84.3f6737ac.2f46697f@cs.com>
References: <84.3f6737ac.2f46697f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <e1eef42548eedf6c4b244c1175eaf8c4@mac.com>


On Feb 17, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> Who was it once began a poem "Th'expense of spirits is a dirty shame"?
>

It is Wendy Cope :
The expense of spirits is a crying shame
And so is the cost of wine. What bard today
Can live like ol Khayyam? It's not the same --
A loaf and Thou and Tesco's Beaujolais.
I had this bird called Sharon, fond of gin --
Could knock back six or seven. At the price
I paid a high wage for each  hour of sin
And that was why I only had her twice.
Then there was Tracey, who drank rum and Coke,
So beautiful I didn't mind at first
But love grows colder. Now some other bloke
Is subsidizing Tracey and her thirst.
I need a woman, honest and sincere,
Who'll come across on half a pint of beer.

>
>
>  In a message dated 2/17/2005 2:59:10 PM Central Standard Time, 
> robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:
>
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>  From: "Mike Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
>
>  >>But doesn't "full stress" beg several questions?? "in" carries a 
> higher
>  (if
>  >>not full) degree of stress than the second syllable in "spirit" and 
> the
>  >>following "a".? If you (as I do) follow Wimsatt&Beardsley and the 
> idea of
>  >>contrastive rather than absolute stress, "in" thus carries a 
> metrical
>  ictus,
>  >>and you get :
>  >
>  >For that line, you're right. But there's no required degree of 
> relative
>  strees between syllable in adjacent feet, only within a foot. So, if 
> the
>  line read
>  >
>  >Th'expense of spirit in odd lusts and shame
>  >
>  >"in" would still get a metrical stress, but the speech stress on the
>  metrically unstressed "odd" is greater.
>
>  Other questions aside, intriguing as they are, actually I *wouldn't* 
> give
>  "in" a metrical stress in your re-written line, but read it thusly:
>
>  ?????????????? X???? /???? X? /? X? X??? /???? /????? X????? /
>
>  ????????? Th'expense of spirit in odd lusts and shame
>
>  ... two iambs, a lesser ionic ascending foot, and a final iamb.
>
>  But that's me, and I'm sure there are cases to be made other than or 
> around
>  this.


I'll give you that, -- how about

Th' expense of spirits in Jim's drinking game


>
>  >I'm glad it doesn't read that way.
>  >
>  >Mike S.
>
>  Me too.
>
>  ??? <g>
>
>  Robin
>
>
Off to North Carolina!




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 17 18:06:49 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:06:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <dd.2063b442.2f467d89@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2005 4:09:39 PM Central Standard Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes: 
> 
> Wendy Cope, but I'm not sure that's the exact wording. It's one of 
> Strugnell's Sonnets, maybe?
May be.  I'll have to check.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 17 18:07:42 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:07:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <12c.57c702cf.2f467dbe@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2005 4:09:39 PM Central Standard Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes: 
> 
> Wendy Cope, but I'm not sure that's the exact wording. It's one of 
> Strugnell's Sonnets, maybe?
Right!  "The expense of spirits is a crying shame."
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 17 18:10:06 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:10:06 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <77.3f5efb51.2f467e4e@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2005 4:15:52 PM Central Standard Time, 
peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk writes: 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> Would either of them do something as foppish as Th' ? 
There's nothing foppish about synaeresis.  Or syncope, for that matter.  
People still do it but ne'er use the apostrophe although the same thing is done in 
the contractions we can't do without.  
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From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Thu Feb 17 18:58:51 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:58:51 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <1108684731.42152fbb8692a@webmail.ukonline.net>

Re: Kent, about Ashbery (quoted at end) - Oh, this is too much for an email! 
I'll think about this (and Ashbery) for a long time and perhaps make a 
considered response in an essay one day. One thing off the top of my head: 
first, that in moving away from meter I also meant moving away from Anything 
that Could be scanned. In principle, there could be meters that use semantic 
units in the same way as rhyme or syllable or accent or quantity. In the poetry 
of the Psalms one could say there is a "rhyme" between paired verses which is a 
semantic one: they vary the same statement. I have seen proposals for semantic 
meters where "red" rhymes with "blue", and more subtly, "later" 
with "lingered", "came to fruition" with "sub-total". To speculate a little 
further, it seems to me that Ashbery's poems have a relationship with prose in 
their rejection of meter, but not the obvious one. I know this is a dangerous 
remark; I am not for a moment saying that Ashbery's poems are, in a reductive 
way, lineated prose. What I mean is more like this. In general feel, reading 
Ashbery reminds me of reading a relaxed nineteenth-century blank verse poem, 
perhaps the Prelude, or more closely still a Keatsian verse epistle, or the 
Browning of the Parleyings... what without animus could be called prosaic poems 
(who was it said, "Meredith is a prose Browning and so is Browning?"..) But of 
course when I make this analogy all the terms are transformed. - any meter in 
Ashbery is implicitly in quotes, like a song in a play. Anyway, what you say 
about floating structures seems aptly suggestive of the kind of large-scale 
effects of the verse paragraph in these blank-verse poems, which is somehow 
separate from, yet depends on, the modest background of iambic flow. So I think 
our responses are along the same lines. I am not trying to claim a line of 
influence here, no doubt Stevens and French poetry are the real literary 
lineage. But even this is of minor interest compared with Ashbery's newness. 
One gets hung up on literary explanation, it's always too narrow. I think that 
the "electrification of the countryside" has everything to do with, not just 
(or even especially) Ashbery but so many post-metrical poems. Whether it's 
cinema, windscreen-wipers, bass guitars or washing machines we do hear 
everything differently now and speak differently too. Whether poetry ought to 
reflect that or not - I don't like those big "oughts" - , it seems to me that 
it's just bound to.


Re: Gabriel, on Wyatt. My incautious remark about Wyatt's invention of 
Poulter's measure was based on over-extrapolating from a sentence in C.S. 
Lewis's history of 16th century literature. I am grateful and relieved that 
Robin's scholarship has come to the aid of some of my other 
remarks.             

Re: "Th'expence of spirit in a waste of shame". The nominal ictus is never 
quite the same as the actual accentuation, which indeed is partly the reader's 
preserve. Another example would be the "and" in Milton's "Of Man's first 
disobedience, and the fruit" - I surmise that an unstressed monosyllable 
following a pause is enjoyed by all readers as an adroit equivalence for a 
formally accented syllable. What is enjoyed is the counterpoint between formal 
and actual rhythm, just like when when a musician applies phrasing to a melody. 
By the way, does anyone know if there is a parallel term to "ictus" to describe 
the formally Unstressed syllable, which is nevertheless sometimes actually 
stressed, like the "too" in "And summer's lease hath all too short a date"? 
It's awkward to have no shorter expression for "non-accented syllable".   
(Oh, and could someone let me know what a "schwa" is, too?)



Quoting Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>:

> 
> Question for Michael, regarding Ashbery and other writers in his vein:
> Could we say that a poet like Ashbery radically shifts prosody, as it
> were, into semantics? That in his work there is a kind of "quantitative
> patterning" of meaning at play, where ideation (the relational,
> non-narrative movement and coupling of packets of sense) can be taken as
> a manner of music and measure? Not that we have a way of scanning
> something like that, if the notion should even be viable (and not that
> Ashbery has some kind of prosodic system in mind!). But though I do
> think Ashbery can make great and surprising *sound* sometimes, this is
> where I "see" Ashbery's major prosody: at higher levels of semantic tone
> and color, where ebbs and flows, darknesses and luminosities of sense
> and information are patterned in delightfully novel, pleasurable, and
> sometimes discomfiting ways. This would come out of Mallarme, I guess,
> if so... But what about the idea that Ashbery is going after layers of
> *structure* that float above the strictly sonic vectors of the poem?
> 
> Kent
> 
>   
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




----------------------------------------------
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb 17 19:29:20 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:29:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <1e8.35201eb5.2f460afc@cs.com>
Message-ID: <01af01c51550$e3d7b9e0$49b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In a message dated 2/17/2005 8:35:42 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 

I thought you did, Sam, when you said meter has nothing to do with "beats."  I thought that meant it had to do with something other than beats, but you apparently were suggesting it only had to do with--what?  Metrical lineation? 


In verse, yes.  Meter can have something to do with "beats"--accentual meter, for example.  Or it can have nothing to do with them--syllabic meter.  Or it can have something to do with them--accentual-syllabic meter.  Which is to say that roughly 1/4 of all iambic lines ever written really have only 4 "beats":
                  /          /               /             /
       Th'expense of spirit in a waste of shame

And a lot of them, with spondees, have more than 5:
                 /              /             /    /     /          /
       And summer's lease hath all too short a date

I won't get into matters of half-stresses or the 1/2/3/4 types of scansion that "rank" the relative stress of syllables.  Visual scansion is just a poor substitute for what should be heard, not seen, and I tell my students to call a syllable stressed or unstressed.

Those who'd argue that "in" deserves a full stress simply because it's in a position in an iambic pentameter line where it ought to have a stress have, well, no ear.  But it's easy enough to write pentameter with no ear--the kind of leaden pentameters Pound was talking about in his metronome analogy. 

I think those who would not stress "in" believe in free verse.  Pretty subjective matter whether "in," stressed, sounds better or worse than "in," unstressed.  I prefer stressed because I find three unstressed syllables in a row almost always unpleasant.  I find the stressing of syllables because they are situated where the meter says they should be stressed sometimes refreshingly non-prose--but too non-prose when they would not be stressed SOMEWHAT in prose.  That is, "in" would be stressed in prose, just not as stressed as the four main beats in the line.  To me a main point of using meter is to make poems non-prose--to be artificial.  

--Bob G.
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 17 20:00:36 2005
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:00:36 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <2255162.1108688436515.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

"Isabella's pooping!," she said.
"Reminds me of the Beach Boys," I said.

- Jim



"It's a time when there is much in window,
but nothing in the room."
- The Dali Lama


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 17 22:07:24 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:07:24 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <1e6.35656256.2f46b5ec@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2005 6:29:46 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
>  
>  I think those who would not stress "in" believe in free verse.  Pretty 
> subjective matter whether "in," stressed, sounds better or worse than "in," 
> unstressed.  I prefer stressed because I find three unstressed syllables in a row 
> almost always unpleasant.  I find the stressing of syllables because they are 
> situated where the meter says they should be stressed sometimes refreshingly 
> non-prose--but too non-prose when they would not be stressed SOMEWHAT in 
> prose.  That is, "in" would be stressed in prose, just not as stressed as the 
> four main beats in the line.  To me a main point of using meter is to make 
> poems non-prose--to be artificial.  
> 
If I were Richard Burton (who I am not), I wouldn't put any stress on "in."  
I've always found that the best honor you can do to iambic pentameter is to 
remember that it is iambic pentameter, then read it as "naturally" as possible.  
Most of the actors I've admired over the years do this--to my ear.  If the 
poet and actor are any good, the strength of the versification will emerge.
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 17 23:25:01 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:25:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <200502180403.j1I43rHb206234@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Dear M---

I think you're onto something here, and yes I also agree with you
that it's not because it "ought to" reflect that reality

(though I have a friend whose washing machine churns in regular trochees!)

C



----------
>From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
>Date: Thu, Feb 17, 2005, 3:58 PM
>

> One gets hung up on literary explanation, it's always too narrow. I think that
> the "electrification of the countryside" has everything to do with, not just
> (or even especially) Ashbery but so many post-metrical poems. Whether it's
> cinema, windscreen-wipers, bass guitars or washing machines we do hear
> everything differently now and speak differently too.


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 18 03:19:30 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:19:30 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter (schwa)
References: <1108684731.42152fbb8692a@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <004401c51592$922c4330$3e9f9951@Robin>

> (Oh, and could someone let me know what a "schwa" is, too?)

Off the to of my head, Michael, it might be described as an indeterminate
vowel -- so slackly pronounced that it fades into insignicance.  Thus [a],
[e], [i], [o], and [u] are all reduced to the same noise.

There isn't an orthographic symbol  for it in the standard alphabet.

Hm ...  I knew the minute that I thought about your question, I'd have
difficulty here.  I'll see if I can google up something more coherent from
the web.

Ah -- "a very short neutral vowel sound" would seem to sum it up.

"
In linguistics and phonology, the schwa is the vowel sound in many lightly
pronounced unaccented syllables in English words of more than one syllable.
It is most easily described as sounding like the British English "er" or the
American English "uh". It is written as the symbol ? (a rotated e). It is
the most common vowel sound in the English language. Its sound depends on
the adjacent consonants and it is a very short neutral vowel sound.

It is a characteristic of English (and the English accent in other
languages) that unaccented neutral vowel sounds, especially before 'r' or
'l', tend to become a schwa. A schwa sound can therefore be represented in
English by any vowel.
"

        http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Schwa

(The whole of the above URL has more details than I really wanted to know.)

Robin




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb 18 06:43:51 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:43:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <1e6.35656256.2f46b5ec@cs.com>
Message-ID: <005401c515af$1e776b50$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In a message dated 2/17/2005 6:29:46 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 

I think those who would not stress "in" believe in free verse.  Pretty subjective matter whether "in," stressed, sounds better or worse than "in," unstressed.  I prefer stressed because I find three unstressed syllables in a row almost always unpleasant.  I find the stressing of syllables because they are situated where the meter says they should be stressed sometimes refreshingly non-prose--but too non-prose when they would not be stressed SOMEWHAT in prose.  That is, "in" would be stressed in prose, just not as stressed as the four main beats in the line.  To me a main point of using meter is to make poems non-prose--to be artificial.  

>If I were Richard Burton (who I am not), I wouldn't put any stress on "in."  I've always found that the best honor you can do to iambic pentameter is to remember that it is iambic pentameter, then read it as "naturally" as possible.  Most of the actors I've admired over the years do this--to my ear.  If the poet and actor are any good, the strength of the versification will emerge. 

***

How?  Which is not intended to be belligerent.  Does the listener hear the beat the meter requires, so the speaker need not sound it?  All I can say is that I don't.  I hear free verse.  

I'd add that when I hear genuine be free verse, it has a rhythmic effect on me only when it seems to me arhythmic.  I take for granted the kind of rhythm almost any text has, so don't "hear" it, unless it's absent.

--Bob G.

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb 18 06:48:55 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:48:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <1e6.35656256.2f46b5ec@cs.com>
Message-ID: <006d01c515af$d345e340$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In a message dated 2/17/2005 6:29:46 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 

I think those who would not stress "in" believe in free verse.  Pretty subjective matter whether "in," stressed, sounds better or worse than "in," unstressed.  I prefer stressed because I find three unstressed syllables in a row almost always unpleasant.  I find the stressing of syllables because they are situated where the meter says they should be stressed sometimes refreshingly non-prose--but too non-prose when they would not be stressed SOMEWHAT in prose.  That is, "in" would be stressed in prose, just not as stressed as the four main beats in the line.  To me a main point of using meter is to make poems non-prose--to be artificial.  


  If I were Richard Burton (who I am not), I wouldn't put any stress on "in."  I've always found that the best honor you can do to iambic pentameter is to remember that it is iambic pentameter, then read it as "naturally" as possible.  Most of the actors I've admired over the years do this--to my ear.  If the poet and actor are any good, the strength of the versification will emerge. 
  &&&&

  Or maybe the actors you admire, DO accent an "in," but simply accent it so much less than they accent other beats that most people think they don't accent it?



  --Bob G.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Feb 18 06:59:03 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:59:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nikos Kazantzakis
Message-ID: <001d01c515b1$3e0f9350$0a7c3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

On this day in 1883, Nikos Kazantzakis was born, in Heraklion, Crete. Kazantzakis was a philosopher, a doctor of laws, a politician, and a prolific writer in almost all genres. He studied under Henri Bergson, won the Lenin Peace Prize, missed the 1957 Nobel by one vote, translated Goethe and Dante, wrote a 33,333 line sequel to the Odyssey, and traveled the world for much of his expatriate life. Notwithstanding, his most famous novel, Zorba the Greek is a rejection of intellectualism and a return to his birthplace -- though Zorba may be a Cretan like no other. By precept and example Zorba educates a British academic to folly, passion, and the Arcadian basics: "How simple and frugal a thing is happiness: a glass of wine, a roast chestnut, a wretched little brazier, the sound of the sea."

The lesson-giving goes both ways. When pressed to reveal what he has learned in all his books, the "Boss" says that "We are little grubs, Zorba, minute grubs on the small leaf of a tremendous tree":

  Some men -- the more intrepid ones -- reach the edge of the leaf. From there we stretch out, gazing into chaos. We tremble. We guess what a frightening abyss lies beneath us. In the distance we can hear the noise of the other leaves of the tremendous tree, we feel the sap rising from the root of our leaf and our hearts swell. Bent thus over the awe-inspiring abyss, with all our bodies and all our souls, we tremble with terror. From that moment begins. . . the great danger, Zorba. Some grow dizzy and delirious, others are afraid; they try to find an answer to strengthen their hearts, and they say: 'God'! Others again, from the edge of the leaf, look over the precipice calmly and bravely and say: 'I like it.'! 
Kazantzakis wrote Zorba during WWll, when he was in his sixties and Greece was under German occupation -- enduring starvation conditions so severe that he and his wife would stay in bed to conserve energy. His letters convey a similar resolve and passion; his The Last Temptation of Christ, published just two years before his death in 1957, was written to show man "that he must not fear pain, temptation or death"; his tombstone inscription in hometown Heraklion reads, "I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free."

These are pretty much Zorba's last words too. Zorba the movie ends with the famous beach-dance, but in the book Zorba moves on to further adventures. He has heard the Boss say that he has learned to be "a man with warm blood and solid bones, who lets tears run down his cheeks when he is suffering, and . . . does not spoil the freshness of his joy by running it through the fine sieve of metaphysics," but Zorba is not quite convinced. One of his last communications is "a card from Rumania showing a very buxom woman wearing a low-necked dress":

  I'm still alive, I'm eating mamaliga and drinking vodka. I work in the oil mines and am as dirty and stinking as any sewer rat. But who cares? You can find here plenty of all your heart and belly can desire. A real paradise for old rascals like me. Do you understand, boss? A wonderful life ... plenty of sweetmeats, and sweethearts into the bargain, God be praised! All the best.


  Alexis Zorbescu, sewer rat





Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From bardo at optonline.net  Fri Feb 18 07:03:38 2005
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:03:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter (schwa)
References: <1108684731.42152fbb8692a@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<004401c51592$922c4330$3e9f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <001501c515b1$e1760510$3a95c044@MULDER>

schwa = ?

<in Lucida Sans Unicode; I hope your browser

can read it!>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter (schwa)


>> (Oh, and could someone let me know what a "schwa" is, too?)
>
> Off the to of my head, Michael, it might be described as an indeterminate
> vowel -- so slackly pronounced that it fades into insignicance.  Thus [a],
> [e], [i], [o], and [u] are all reduced to the same noise.
>
> There isn't an orthographic symbol  for it in the standard alphabet.
>
> Hm ...  I knew the minute that I thought about your question, I'd have
> difficulty here.  I'll see if I can google up something more coherent from
> the web.
>
> Ah -- "a very short neutral vowel sound" would seem to sum it up.
>
> "
> In linguistics and phonology, the schwa is the vowel sound in many lightly
> pronounced unaccented syllables in English words of more than one 
> syllable.
> It is most easily described as sounding like the British English "er" or 
> the
> American English "uh". It is written as the symbol ? (a rotated e). It is
> the most common vowel sound in the English language. Its sound depends on
> the adjacent consonants and it is a very short neutral vowel sound.
>
> It is a characteristic of English (and the English accent in other
> languages) that unaccented neutral vowel sounds, especially before 'r' or
> 'l', tend to become a schwa. A schwa sound can therefore be represented in
> English by any vowel.
> "
>
>        http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Schwa
>
> (The whole of the above URL has more details than I really wanted to 
> know.)
>
> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb 18 09:17:38 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:17:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter (schwa)
Message-ID: <1df.35a23066.2f475302@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/18/2005 2:20:02 AM Central Standard Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> >(Oh, and could someone let me know what a "schwa" is, too?)
> 
> Off the to of my head, Michael, it might be described as an indeterminate
> vowel -- so slackly pronounced that it fades into insignicance.  Thus [a],
> [e], [i], [o], and [u] are all reduced to the same noise.
> 
I've heard it said that in American pronunciation, any unaccented vowel is a 
schwa, which sounds like "uh."  "Uhmericuhn," for example.  Our Cousins are 
more fastidious in preserving some differences in their unaccented vowels than 
we Cuhlonyuhls are.
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Feb 18 09:28:02 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:28:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test and New Email
Message-ID: <731bb17a05021806282c8b7cdb@mail.gmail.com>

Test

Jeff N.


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb 18 09:35:29 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:35:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <82.2217e9a9.2f475731@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/18/2005 5:44:24 AM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> ***
>   
>  How?  Which is not intended to be belligerent.  Does the listener hear the 
> beat the meter requires, so the speaker need not sound it?  All I can say is 
> that I don't.  I hear free verse.  
> 
The listener hears words arranged in a metrical pattern.  But if the pattern 
is too obvious, the reader hears the pattern more than the words.  I don't how 
to explain this any better.  It's like the difference between listening to, 
say, Burton recite Shakespeare and listening to a Gilbert and Sullivan patter 
song.  In the latter, the metrical pattern is more in the foreground than in 
the former.  Trochaics and triple meters seem to be "louder" than iambics, 
though iambics can be pretty sing-song if not handled well.  In light verse, louder 
is better; in serious verse, louder is bombast.
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Feb 18 09:51:57 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:51:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Morri Creech, "The Wife of Job"
Message-ID: <731bb17a05021806517228abba@mail.gmail.com>

The Wife of Job 
Morri Creech


    Well, now, I never heard the whirlwind speak
            to me?though I did lose
my children to a windstorm, saw the lightning's sleek
                    flame have its way,
        scorching the servants and the sheep,
              and though I won't deny
that my husband here?the most pious man in Uz?
     still claims an angel whispers in his sleep,
a plain fact that I don't discuss in mixed company.

     You've seen such men, eyes dazed with righteousness,
              who think they catch a whiff
of sin in everything: a neighbor's Sunday dress
                 hitched just above
      the ankle, or a child's stray smile
           when pies cooled on the stove
or a few idle hours, say, tempt him to mischief.
     Such men may fast, or pray; all the while
salt loses its savor and milk sours in the pail.

    And wives grow tired. Oh, not that I complain,
            mind you?but certain nights
Job prayed above me as if Jehovah lay between
                 the sheets with us:
      his breath in my hair was like a psalm,
         each spasm a new promise
heaven might fullfill. Job's ways were just and right,
     no doubting that; though later, in the calm,
I'd listen to him snore and know we were alone.

    Still, who would strive to be more just than God?
            My husband, I suppose.
And everyone knows that saints are first to feel the rod
                 and lash of grace
       descend upon their lives, to bear
             the blade of sacrifice
above their squirming sons, or as the future grows
     in their daughter's wombs, to know they've sown it there?
needless to say, their wives and children share that grace.

    We've sheep and sons to spare now, true enough;
            and I've long salved the sores
that once blistered my husband's skin. But I've no love
                 or patience now
      for piety. I do my chores,
         ?darn clothes or mend the plough?
and try not to think how such foolishness could stir
     whirlwinds and voices, storms and random fires,
or draw down on us the thunder of the Lord's error.


from The Southern Review 





Jeff Newberry
-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Fri Feb 18 10:38:10 2005
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:38:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test and New Email
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05021806282c8b7cdb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a05021806282c8b7cdb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050218103803.Y95501@kpaul.spinweb.net>

you pass...

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> Test
>
> Jeff N.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Feb 18 10:58:43 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:58:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Hejinian live webcast next Tues.
Message-ID: <6b.3f2f0aad.2f476ab3@aol.com>

                                    Language is running
                                    Language remains
                                    Wanting to live it, having wanted to,
                                          we live we live in it
                                            --from Lyn Hejinian, "Happily"


LYN HEJINIAN at the KELLY WRITERS HOUSE

join us by live webcast

----------------------------------------------------------------------

the Kelly Writers House Fellows program presents

Lyn Hejinian

10:30 AM (eastern time)
Tuesday, February 22

a conversation (with audience Q&A) conducted by Al Filreis

To participate via webcast, simply rsvp to: << whfellow at writing.upenn.edu >>

Anyone with a computer and an internet connection can participate.
Participants in the webcast will be able to interact with Lyn Hejinian by
email or telephone. For more information about the Kelly Writers House
webcast series, see

                http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/

Those who rsvp will receive further instructions.

For more about Lyn Hejinian, see:

                http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~whfellow/hejinian.html

Kelly Writers House
3805 Locust Walk
University of Pennsylvania
215 573-WRIT
www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh


                                      * - *

       Writers House Fellows is funded by a generous grant from Paul Kelly.

                    previous Fellows:

                    James Alan McPherson    2004
                    Russell Banks
                    Susan Sontag        2003
                    Walter Bernstein
                    Laurie Anderson
                                          John Ashbery            2002
                                          Charles Fuller
                                          Michael Cunningham
                                          June Jordan             2001
                                          David Sedaris
                                          Tony Kushner
                                          Grace Paley             2000
                                          Robert Creeley
                                          John Edgar Wideman
                                          Gay Talese              1999

     recordings of live webcasts featuring the Fellows can be found here:

                  http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Feb 18 11:01:58 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:01:58 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <1e2.35c5f898.2f476b76@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/18/2005 9:36:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

The listener hears words arranged in a metrical pattern.  But if the pattern 
is too obvious, the reader hears the pattern more than the words.  I don't how 
to explain this any better.
This apropos quote popped up in my inbox today...
Finnegan

The musical emotion springs precisely from the fact that at each moment the 
composer withholds or adds more or less than the listener anticipates on the 
basis of a pattern that he thinks he can guess, but that he is incapable of 
wholly divining.

Claude Levi-Strauss
    --The Raw and the Cooked
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Feb 18 03:58:53 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:58:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal
In-Reply-To: <90.57b68c85.2f464d49@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BE3B0A6D.82FB%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 2/17/05 1:40 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:

> Stevie Smith? is my guess. I'm not so crazy as to step
> into a discussion of prosodic merit, or lack thereof,
> with the crew at hand.
> Finnegan
>  
> In a message dated 2/17/2005 12:40:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> grahamd at ripon.edu writes:
>> Anyone care to comment on the formal qualities of this poem by yet another
>> mystery poet?
>> 
>> 
>> If
>> 
>> If your hair was brown
>> and isn?t now,
>> if your hands were strong
>> and now you falter,
>> 
>> if your eyes were sharp
>> and now they blur,
>> your step confident
>> and now it?s careful--
>> 
>> you?ve had the world,
>> such as you got.
>> There?s nothing more,
>> there never was.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

I was going to guess Samuel Menash, or William Bronk.

Paul Lake
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb 18 10:41:06 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:41:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <82.2217e9a9.2f475731@cs.com>
Message-ID: <015e01c515d3$65702be0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

***
  
How?  Which is not intended to be belligerent.  Does the listener hear the beat the meter requires, so the speaker need not sound it?  All I can say is that I don't.  I hear free verse.  


  The listener hears words arranged in a metrical pattern.

  Is he perceiving it conceptually, then?  My guess is , yes, but that he is also hearing beats the way he would if reading the poem being recited silently.  Actually, I'm not sure if one can perceive something "conceptually."  I think what is called doing that is really a matter of seeing or hearing something and realizing it fits some seen or heard pattern.

  But if the pattern is too obvious, the reader hears the pattern more than the words.  I don't how to explain this any better.  It's like the difference between listening to, say, Burton recite Shakespeare and listening to a Gilbert and Sullivan patter song.  In the latter, the metrical pattern is more in the foreground than in the former.  Trochaics and triple meters seem to be "louder" than iambics, though iambics can be pretty sing-song if not handled well.  In light verse, louder is better; in serious verse, louder is bombast. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  I think even in light verse, the matter must work for the meter not to be annoying.  I would also say that in serious verse, the more complex the matter, the more helpful regularity of meter will be, the semantic and/or conceptual difficulty of the matter requiring extra butter to be palatable.  The meter provides music until the difficulty is partly oversome, then the enjoyment of the conquered difficulty blots out any tediousness of meter.

  I perceive five values of meter, beyond just its ability to sound nice to most people:  (1) its ability to announce the presence of art; (2) its ability to refer to and tie into the poem under way other poems with the same of similar meter; (3) its ability to help express appropriate emotions (though I think this limited); (4) its ability to counter difficulty with a simple pleasurabilty; and (5) its ability to suggest a certain dexterity on the part of a poet who has mastered it (also a minor value, but there).

  I'm sure I've left some out.  Any others you or anyone else can think of, Sam?

  --Bob G.


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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Feb 18 11:04:48 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:04:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal Mystery Poet
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9A1@URANIUM.ripon.college>

Looks like the guessing is over.  Our mystery poet in this case is Robert Creeley, noted formalist.  "If" is from *Mirrors* (1984).

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> Reply To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: 	Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:26 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Formal
> 
> <<File: ATT05997.txt>>
> In a message dated 2/16/2005 11:40:02 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> 
> 
> 	If
> 
> 	If your hair was brown              5
> 	and isn?t now,                         4          
> 	if your hands were strong         5
> 	and now you falter,                  5
> 
> 	if your eyes were sharp            5
> 	and now they blur,                   4
> 	your step confident                  5
> 	and now it?s careful--                5
> 
> 	you?ve had the world,               4
> 	such as you got.                     4
> 	There?s nothing more,              4
> 	there never was.                      4
> 
> 	It's not regularly syllabic, but I get two strong stresses per line.
> 
> 
> 
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From MillB at aol.com  Fri Feb 18 11:55:55 2005
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:55:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <53.2199393e.2f47781b@aol.com>

Greetings,
 
I'm collecting favorite "New York Moments" in literature. Along the lines  of 
Frank O'Hara's poem,  "The Day Lady Died."
 
I would appreciate hearing from folks on the list with other  possibilities.  
 
New York Moments have to be unique to NYC.  They usually fall into  three 
categories:
1) Brushes with celebrity
2) The melting pot
3) Things aren?t what  they seem
 
Thanks,
 
Mill


   The Day  Lady Died
FRANK O?HARA

It is 12:20 in  New York a Friday
three days after Bastille day, yes
it is 1959 and  I go get a shoeshine
because I will get off the 4:19 in  Easthampton
at 7:15 and then go straight to dinner
and I don?t know  the people who will feed me

I walk up the  muggy street beginning to sun
and have a hamburger and a malted and  buy
an ugly NEW WORLD WRITING to see what the poets
in Ghana are  doing these days
in Ghana are doing these  days I go on to the bank
and Miss Stillwagon (first name Linda I  once heard)
doesn?t even look up my balance for once in her life
and  in the GOLDEN GRIFFIN I get a little Verlaine
for Patsy with drawings  by Bonnard although I do
think of Hesiod, trans. Richmond Lattimore  or
Brendan Behan?s new play or Le Balcon or Les  N?gres
of Genet, but I don?t, I stick with Verlaine
after  practically going to sleep with quandariness

and for Mike I just stroll into the PARK  LANE
Liquor Store and ask for a bottle of Strega and
then I go back  where I came from to 6th Avenue
and the tobacconist in the Ziegfeld  Theatre and
casually ask for a carton of Gauloises and a carton
of  Picayunes, and a NEW YORK POST with her face on it

and I am sweating a lot by now and thinking  of
leaning on the john door in the 5 SPOT
while she whispered a song  along the keyboard
to Mal Waldron and everyone and I stopped  breathing 
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Feb 18 12:06:13 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:06:13 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9A6@URANIUM.ripon.college>

There's always Galway Kinnell's "Avenue Bearing the Initial of Christ Into the New World":

>From the blind gut Pitt to the East River of Fishes
The Avenue cobbles a swath through the discolored air,
A roadway of refuse from the teeming shores and ghettos
And the Caribbean Paradise, into the new ghetto and new paradise,
This God-forsaken Avenue bearing the initial of Christ
Through the haste and carelessness of the ages,
The sea standing in heaps, which keeps on collapsing,
Where the drowned suffer a C-change,
And remain the common poor.


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of MillB at aol.com
> Reply To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: 	Friday, February 18, 2005 10:55 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
> 
> <<File: ATT09136.txt>>
> Greetings,
>  
> I'm collecting favorite "New York Moments" in literature. Along the lines of Frank O'Hara's poem,  "The Day Lady Died."
>  
> I would appreciate hearing from folks on the list with other possibilities.  
>  
> New York Moments have to be unique to NYC.  They usually fall into three categories:
> 1) Brushes with celebrity
> 2) The melting pot
> 3) Things aren> '> t what they seem
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Mill
> 
>  
> The Day Lady Died
> FRANK O> '> HARA
> 
> It is 12:20 in New York a Friday
> three days after Bastille day, yes
> it is 1959 and I go get a shoeshine
> because I will get off the 4:19 in Easthampton
> at 7:15 and then go straight to dinner
> and I don> '> t know the people who will feed me
> 
> I walk up the muggy street beginning to sun
> and have a hamburger and a malted and buy
> an ugly NEW WORLD WRITING to see what the poets
> in Ghana are doing these days
> in Ghana are doing these days I go on to the bank
> and Miss Stillwagon (first name Linda I once heard)
> doesn> '> t even look up my balance for once in her life
> and in the GOLDEN GRIFFIN I get a little Verlaine
> for Patsy with drawings by Bonnard although I do
> think of Hesiod, trans. Richmond Lattimore or
> Brendan Behan> '> s new play or Le Balcon or Les N?gres
> of Genet, but I don> '> t, I stick with Verlaine
> after practically going to sleep with quandariness
> 
> and for Mike I just stroll into the PARK LANE
> Liquor Store and ask for a bottle of Strega and
> then I go back where I came from to 6th Avenue
> and the tobacconist in the Ziegfeld Theatre and
> casually ask for a carton of Gauloises and a carton
> of Picayunes, and a NEW YORK POST with her face on it
> 
> and I am sweating a lot by now and thinking of
> leaning on the john door in the 5 SPOT
> while she whispered a song along the keyboard
> to Mal Waldron and everyone and I stopped breathing	  	
> 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 18 12:13:57 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:13:57 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
References: <53.2199393e.2f47781b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008801c515dd$3bfeb0b0$3e9f9951@Robin>

<<
I'm collecting favorite "New York Moments" in literature. Along the lines of
Frank O'Hara's poem,  "The Day Lady Died."
>>

Ferlinghetti, "I was leading a quiet life in Mac's place".

W.H.Auden, "September 1939"

R.




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb 18 12:14:27 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:14:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <29.6d2ed8c0.2f477c73@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/18/2005 10:06:09 AM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> I perceive five values of meter, beyond just its ability to sound nice to 
> most people:  (1) its ability to announce the presence of art; (2) its ability 
> to refer to and tie into the poem under way other poems with the same of 
> similar meter; (3) its ability to help express appropriate emotions (though I 
> think this limited); (4) its ability to counter difficulty with a simple 
> pleasurabilty; and (5) its ability to suggest a certain dexterity on the part of a 
> poet who has mastered it (also a minor value, but there).
> 
>  I'm sure I've left some out.  Any others you or anyone else can think of, 
> Sam?
> 
>  --Bob G.
> 
> 
The so-called "heuristic" function in that the writer commits himself to a 
pattern and must shape his thoughts into words that fit the pattern.  This 
process often leads the writer in directions he/she might not have thought of 
before.  It gets more complex with more complex forms.  For example, a writer may 
begin a poem with a certain idea.  Then he sees that the idea is beginning to 
shape itself into a sonnet.  But as he writes the sonnet, the demands of the 
meter, rhyme scheme, and structure begin to affect the shape of the original 
thought.  And when he finishes the sonnet, he may find that it succeeds, but it 
doesn't conform to the idea he originally conceived.  I think of some of 
Michelangelo's unfinished statues--the Rondanini Pieta, for example.  The sculptor 
(and sonneteer) finds that his conception won't fit the block of stone he 
started with.  He either revises the sculpture or abandons it.  The first poem I 
ever published was about the Rondanini Pieta.  And it was a sonnet too.

http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelo31.html
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb 18 12:16:38 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:16:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <145.3fc0ba42.2f477cf6@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/18/2005 10:57:35 AM Central Standard Time, MillB at aol.com 
writes: 
> Greetings,
>   
>  I'm collecting favorite "New York Moments" in literature. Along the lines 
> of Frank O'Hara's poem,  "The Day Lady Died."
>   
>  I would appreciate hearing from folks on the list with other possibilities. 
>  
> 
About 400 poems by Langston Hughes would work.
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Feb 18 12:17:17 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:17:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9A7@URANIUM.ripon.college>

Whitman's "Crossing Brooklyn Ferry."



============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Robin Hamilton
> Reply To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: 	Friday, February 18, 2005 11:13 AM
> To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
> 
> <<
> I'm collecting favorite "New York Moments" in literature. Along the lines of
> Frank O'Hara's poem,  "The Day Lady Died."
> >>
> 
> Ferlinghetti, "I was leading a quiet life in Mac's place".
> 
> W.H.Auden, "September 1939"
> 
> R.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Feb 18 12:19:24 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:19:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9A8@URANIUM.ripon.college>

MAN LISTENING TO DISC

by Billy Collins


This is not bad --
ambling along 44th Street
with Sonny Rollins for company,
his music flowing through the soft calipers
of these earphones,

as if he were right beside me
on this clear day in March,
the pavement sparkling with sunlight,
pigeons fluttering off the curb,
nodding over a profusion of bread crumbs.

In fact, I would say
my delight at being suffused
with phrases from his saxophone --
some like honey, some like vinegar --
is surpassed only by my gratitude

to Tommy Potter for taking the time
to join us on this breezy afternoon
with his most unwieldy bass
and to the esteemed Arthur Taylor
who is somehow managing to navigate

this crowd with his cumbersome drums.
And I bow deeply to Thelonious Monk
for figuring out a way
to motorize -- or whatever -- his huge piano
so he could be with us today.

This music is loud yet so confidential.
I cannot help feeling even more
like the center of the universe
than usual as I walk along to a rapid
little version of "The Way You Look Tonight,"

and all I can say to my fellow pedestrians,
to the woman in the white sweater,
the man in the tan raincoat and the heavy glasses,
who mistake themselves for the center of the universe --
all I can say is watch your step,

because the five of us, instruments and all,
are about to angle over
to the south side of the street
and then, in our own tightly knit way,
turn the corner at Sixth Avenue.

And if any of you are curious
about where this aggregation,
this whole battery-powered crew,
is headed, let us just say
that the real center of the universe,

the only true point of view,
is full of hope that he,
the hub of the cosmos
with his hair blown sideways,
will eventually make it all the way downtown. 



============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Graham, David
> Reply To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Sent: 	Friday, February 18, 2005 11:17 AM
> To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] NYC Moments
> 
> <<File: ATT10300.txt>>
> Whitman's "Crossing Brooklyn Ferry." 
> 
> 
> 
> ============================================ 
> David Graham 
> Department of English, Ripon College 
> grahamd at ripon.edu 
>      Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html 
>      My Poetry Library: 
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html 
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu 
> ============================================ 
> 
> 
> 	---------- 
> From:   new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Robin Hamilton 
> Reply To:       NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
> Sent:   Friday, February 18, 2005 11:13 AM 
> To:     NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
> Subject:        Re: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments 
> 
> 	<< 
> I'm collecting favorite "New York Moments" in literature. Along the lines of 
> Frank O'Hara's poem,  "The Day Lady Died." 
> >> 
> 
> 	Ferlinghetti, "I was leading a quiet life in Mac's place". 
> 
> 	W.H.Auden, "September 1939" 
> 
> 	R. 
> 
> 
> 	_______________________________________________ 
> New-Poetry mailing list 
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
> 
> 
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 18 12:12:42 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:12:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Tom Clark, "Desert Wars"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGENKKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Desert Wars

World speeding toward
Bottle green starlight chaos
Nintendo fuse of blood
To destroy Sumerian language
In a video glass ambulance

Ash and tetrahedra

Large twisted block
Across the blue black plain
Pencils of wheeling light
Red sandstone skies

Minarets of volcanic glass
Soft black sand weaves
Gangster fez of dawn
Orange gold ignition on black
Telephone pole cigarets
Whole sky lights up & hums
Then huge roar comes

--Tom Clark

fr. *Sleepwalker's Fate: New and Selected Poems, 1965-1991*
[Santa Rosa, California: Black Sparrow Press, 1992]


Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb 18 12:20:24 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:20:24 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <1c3.23937363.2f477dd8@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/18/2005 10:57:35 AM Central Standard Time, MillB at aol.com 
writes: 
> Greetings,
>   
>  I'm collecting favorite "New York Moments" in literature. Along the lines 
> of Frank O'Hara's poem,  "The Day Lady Died."
>   
>  I would appreciate hearing from folks on the list with other possibilities. 
>  
> 
One thing I've always loved about "Crossing Brooklyn Ferry" is that it's one 
of the first poems that really speculates about the future in the way that 
most of us speculate about it (and I'm not talking about the "Locksley Hall" 
version of the future).  It's something about Whitman that makes him very 
modern--his techniques and language aside.  His sensibility is urban and modern at a 
time when most other poets were looking backwards.

And then there's Harte Crane, who is trying to look in both directions at 
once and "bridge" past, present, and future.
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Feb 18 12:25:03 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:25:03 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9A9@URANIUM.ripon.college>

Mingus at The Showplace

I was miserable, of course, for I was seventeen,
and so I swung into action and wrote a poem,

and it was miserable, for that was how I thought
poetry worked: you digested experience and shat

literature. It was 1960 at The Showplace, long since
defunct, on West 4th St., and I sat at the bar,

casting beer money from a thin reel of ones,
the kid in the city, big ears like a puppy.

And I knew Mingus was a genius. I knew two
other things, but as it happened they were wrong.

So I made him look at the poem.
"There's a lot of that going around," he said,

and Sweet Baby Jesus he was right. He glowered
at me but he didn't look as if he thought

bad poems were dangerous, the way some poets do.
If they were baseball executives they'd plot

to destroy sandlots everywhere so that the game
could be saved from children. Of course later

that night he fired his pianist in mid-number
and flurried him from the stand.

"We've suffered a diminuendo in personnel,"
he explained, and the band played on.

William Matthews
Time & Money
Houghton Mifflin Company


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb 18 12:48:13 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:48:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <ea.63646181.2f47845d@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/18/2005 11:23:36 AM Central Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: 
> And then there's Harte Crane, who is trying to look in both directions at 
> once and "bridge" past, present, and future.
> 
Hart Crane, I mean.  I just finished teaching "The Outcasts of Poker Flat" 
and had that other Harte in mind.
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From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Fri Feb 18 12:48:21 2005
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:48:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <16bff7e16bc2e8.16bc2e816bff7e@nyu.edu>



Derek Mahon's "Terminal Bar" and his "Hudson Letter."

-------------- next part --------------
Mingus at The Showplace

I was miserable, of course, for I was seventeen,
and so I swung into action and wrote a poem,

and it was miserable, for that was how I thought
poetry worked: you digested experience and shat

literature. It was 1960 at The Showplace, long since
defunct, on West 4th St., and I sat at the bar,

casting beer money from a thin reel of ones,
the kid in the city, big ears like a puppy.

And I knew Mingus was a genius. I knew two
other things, but as it happened they were wrong.

So I made him look at the poem.
"There's a lot of that going around," he said,

and Sweet Baby Jesus he was right. He glowered
at me but he didn't look as if he thought

bad poems were dangerous, the way some poets do.
If they were baseball executives they'd plot

to destroy sandlots everywhere so that the game
could be saved from children. Of course later

that night he fired his pianist in mid-number
and flurried him from the stand.

"We've suffered a diminuendo in personnel,"
he explained, and the band played on.

William Matthews
Time & Money
Houghton Mifflin Company


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================

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_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Feb 18 12:55:26 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:55:26 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <s215d7be.062@mail.highland.edu>

excerpts from Poeta en Nueva York, by Lorca?


From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Fri Feb 18 13:01:42 2005
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:01:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <16c770316cb1a4.16cb1a416c7703@nyu.edu>

Walcott's "A Village Life."


----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Kelly <chris.kelly at nyu.edu>
Date: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:48 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments

> 
> 
> Derek Mahon's "Terminal Bar" and his "Hudson Letter."
> 
> 
-------------- next part --------------
Mingus at The Showplace

I was miserable, of course, for I was seventeen,
and so I swung into action and wrote a poem,

and it was miserable, for that was how I thought
poetry worked: you digested experience and shat

literature. It was 1960 at The Showplace, long since
defunct, on West 4th St., and I sat at the bar,

casting beer money from a thin reel of ones,
the kid in the city, big ears like a puppy.

And I knew Mingus was a genius. I knew two
other things, but as it happened they were wrong.

So I made him look at the poem.
"There's a lot of that going around," he said,

and Sweet Baby Jesus he was right. He glowered
at me but he didn't look as if he thought

bad poems were dangerous, the way some poets do.
If they were baseball executives they'd plot

to destroy sandlots everywhere so that the game
could be saved from children. Of course later

that night he fired his pianist in mid-number
and flurried him from the stand.

"We've suffered a diminuendo in personnel,"
he explained, and the band played on.

William Matthews
Time & Money
Houghton Mifflin Company


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================

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_______________________________________________
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From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Fri Feb 18 13:09:09 2005
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:09:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <16c7ae916c42e8.16c42e816c7ae9@nyu.edu>


Kinnell.


----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Kelly <chris.kelly at nyu.edu>
Date: Friday, February 18, 2005 1:01 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments

> Walcott's "A Village Life."
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Christopher Kelly <chris.kelly at nyu.edu>
> Date: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:48 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Derek Mahon's "Terminal Bar" and his "Hudson Letter."
> > 
> > 
> 
-------------- next part --------------
Mingus at The Showplace

I was miserable, of course, for I was seventeen,
and so I swung into action and wrote a poem,

and it was miserable, for that was how I thought
poetry worked: you digested experience and shat

literature. It was 1960 at The Showplace, long since
defunct, on West 4th St., and I sat at the bar,

casting beer money from a thin reel of ones,
the kid in the city, big ears like a puppy.

And I knew Mingus was a genius. I knew two
other things, but as it happened they were wrong.

So I made him look at the poem.
"There's a lot of that going around," he said,

and Sweet Baby Jesus he was right. He glowered
at me but he didn't look as if he thought

bad poems were dangerous, the way some poets do.
If they were baseball executives they'd plot

to destroy sandlots everywhere so that the game
could be saved from children. Of course later

that night he fired his pianist in mid-number
and flurried him from the stand.

"We've suffered a diminuendo in personnel,"
he explained, and the band played on.

William Matthews
Time & Money
Houghton Mifflin Company


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================

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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 18 13:09:09 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:09:09 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
References: <s215d7be.062@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <014b01c515e4$f1f61410$3e9f9951@Robin>

Didn't Andrei Voznesensky visit New York, and write some poems there / about
it?

Robin




From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Fri Feb 18 13:11:32 2005
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:11:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <16dd61116dd8b5.16dd8b516dd611@nyu.edu>


Yes, he did. And brodsky and mayakovsky. 


----- Original Message -----
From: Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
Date: Friday, February 18, 2005 1:09 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments

> Didn't Andrei Voznesensky visit New York, and write some poems 
> there / about
> it?
> 
> Robin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 18 13:16:17 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:16:17 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
References: <16dd61116dd8b5.16dd8b516dd611@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <019d01c515e5$f1035a30$3e9f9951@Robin>

> Yes, he did. And brodsky and mayakovsky.

That occurred to me, Mayakovsky, that is, but I couldn't think when he'd
have had the chance or anything he wrote on it.

Would seem like his kind of place, though.

Further, please?

R.




From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Fri Feb 18 13:22:01 2005
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:22:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <16d80cb16d633b.16d633b16d80cb@nyu.edu>


"Brooklyn Bridge" text here: 

http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~noblea/russian.htm

best 
 cbk

----- Original Message -----
From: Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
Date: Friday, February 18, 2005 1:16 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments

> > Yes, he did. And brodsky and mayakovsky.
> 
> That occurred to me, Mayakovsky, that is, but I couldn't think when 
> he'dhave had the chance or anything he wrote on it.
> 
> Would seem like his kind of place, though.
> 
> Further, please?
> 
> R.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From chris.kelly at nyu.edu  Fri Feb 18 13:22:55 2005
From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:22:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <16d62ac16d8cbf.16d8cbf16d62ac@nyu.edu>

Enfranchising cable, silvered by the sea,
   of woven wire, grayed by the mist,
   and Liberty dominate the Bay-
   her feet as one on shattered chains,
   once whole links wrought by Tyranny.

   Caged Circe of steel and stone,
   her parent German ingenuity.
   "O catenary curve" from tower to pier,
   implacable enemy of the mind's deformity,
   of man's uncompunctious greed
   his crass love of crass priority
      just recently
   obstructing acquiescent feet
   about to step ashore when darkness fell
      without a cause,
   as if probity had not joined our cities
      in the sea.

   "O path amid the stars
   crossed by the seagull's wing!"
   "O radiance that doth inherit me!"
   - affirming inter-acting harmony!

   Untried expedient, untried; then tried;
   way out; way in; romantic passageway
   first seen by the eye of the mind,
   then by the eye. O steel! O stone!
   Climactic ornament, a double rainbow,
   as if inverted by French perspicacity,
      John Roebling's monument,
      German tenacity's also;
      composite span- an actuality.

Marianne Moore "Granite and Steel"
-------------- next part --------------
In a message dated 2/18/2005 10:57:35 AM Central Standard Time, MillB at aol.com 
writes: 
> Greetings,
>   
>  I'm collecting favorite "New York Moments" in literature. Along the lines 
> of Frank O'Hara's poem,  "The Day Lady Died."
>   
>  I would appreciate hearing from folks on the list with other possibilities. 
>  
> 
About 400 poems by Langston Hughes would work.
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 18 13:30:06 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:30:06 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
References: <16dd61116dd8b5.16dd8b516dd611@nyu.edu>
	<019d01c515e5$f1035a30$3e9f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <01b501c515e7$df3a8470$3e9f9951@Robin>

> > Yes, he did. And brodsky and mayakovsky.
> 
> That occurred to me, Mayakovsky, that is, but I couldn't think when he'd
> have had the chance or anything he wrote on it.
> 
> Would seem like his kind of place, though.
> 
> Further, please?
> 
> R.

        Oh shite, I really blew my Scottish credentials on that one ...

+Wi The Hail Voice+,  translated by Edwin Morgan, "Brooklyn Brig":

Coolige ahoy!
Can ye shout wi joy?
This makar'll no be blate
                                      at namin
what's guid ...

        :-(

Robin



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb 18 15:07:15 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:07:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <1e9.360da5a5.2f47a4f3@cs.com>

Here's a famous New York "moment":


"New York Minute"

Harry got up 
Dressed all in black 
Went down to the station 
And he never came back 
They found his clothing 
Scattered somewhere down the track 
And he won't be down on Wall Street 
in the morning 

He had a home 
The love of a girl 
But men get lost sometimes 
As years unfold 
One day he crossed some line 
And he was too much in this world 
But I guess it doesn't matter anymore 

In a New York Minute 
Everything can change 
In a New York Minute 
Things can get pretty strange 
In a New York Minute 
Everything can change 
In a New York Minute 

Lying here in the darkness 
I hear the sirens wail 
Somebody going to emergency 
Somebody's going to jail 
If you find somebody to love in this world 
You better hand on tooth and nail 
The wolf is always at the door 

In a New York Minute 
Everything can change 
In a New York Minute 
Things can get a little strange 
In a New York Minute 
Everything can change 
In a New York Minute 

And in these days 
When darkness falls early 
And people rush home 
To the ones they love 
You better take a fool's advice 
And tak care of your own 
One day they're here; 
Next day they're gone 

I pulled my coat around my shoulders 
And took a walk down through the park 
The leaves were falling around me 
The groaning city in the gathering dark 
On some solitary rock 
A desperate lover left his mark, 
"Baby, I've changed. Please come back." 

What the head makes cloudy 
The heart makes very clear 
The days were so much brighter 
In the time when she was here 
But I know there's somebody somewhere 
Make these dark clouds disappear 
Until that day, I have to believe 
I believe, I believe 

In a New York Minute 
Everything can change 
In a New York Minute 
You can get out of the rain 
In a New York Minute 
Everything can change 
In a New York Minute

--Don Henley
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Fri Feb 18 16:41:04 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:41:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter (schwa)
In-Reply-To: <004401c51592$922c4330$3e9f9951@Robin>
References: <1108684731.42152fbb8692a@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<004401c51592$922c4330$3e9f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050218153446.03092270@mail.ilstu.edu>

Be advised when I mentioned "the schwa," I meant "the schwa in question." I 
mentioned "the schwa" in the context of the post-Chaucerian loss of the 
final-e. So, this is the end-word schwa. The typical orthographic symbol 
for it in the IPA (International Phonetical Alphabet) is what amounts to an 
upside down lower case e.

I apologize deeply for introducing this into the conversation.



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb 18 16:53:01 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:53:01 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Classic copper clappers
Message-ID: <8e.215b6604.2f47bdbd@cs.com>

Here's a classic routine between Johnny Carson and Jack Webb (windows media 
player format) that might be a fun way to introduce students to the joys of 
alliteration and other sonic devices in poetry.  If you're not interested, don't 
download it, for it's a pretty large file.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb 18 16:56:16 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:56:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYC Moments
Message-ID: <f7.4a6a873f.2f47be80@cs.com>

There's a review of Anne Winters's The Displaced of Capital in this week's 
(2/20/05) New YorkTimes Book Review.  A whole book of NYC moments apparently.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb 18 19:37:57 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:37:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <29.6d2ed8c0.2f477c73@cs.com>
Message-ID: <021a01c5161f$785571b0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

    I perceive five values of meter, beyond just its ability to sound nice to most people:  (1) its ability to announce the presence of art; (2) its ability to refer to and tie into the poem under way other poems with the same of similar meter; (3) its ability to help express appropriate emotions (though I think this limited); (4) its ability to counter difficulty with a simple pleasurabilty; and (5) its ability to suggest a certain dexterity on the part of a poet who has mastered it (also a minor value, but there).

    I'm sure I've left some out.  Any others you or anyone else can think of, Sam?

    --Bob G.



  The so-called "heuristic" function in that the writer commits himself to a pattern and must shape his thoughts into words that fit the pattern.  This process often leads the writer in directions he/she might not have thought of before.  It gets more complex with more complex forms.  For example, a writer may begin a poem with a certain idea.  Then he sees that the idea is beginning to shape itself into a sonnet.  But as he writes the sonnet, the demands of the meter, rhyme scheme, and structure begin to affect the shape of the original thought.  And when he finishes the sonnet, he may find that it succeeds, but it doesn't conform to the idea he originally conceived.  I think of some of Michelangelo's unfinished statues--the Rondanini Pieta, for example.  The sculptor (and sonneteer) finds that his conception won't fit the block of stone he started with.  He either revises the sculpture or abandons it.  The first poem I ever published was about the Rondanini Pieta.  And it was a sonnet too.

  http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelo31.html 
  Yes, definitely.  And the way it forces one to consider more possibilities than free verse would in order to satisfy the metric requirement.  So the poet might surprise himself by using some word in a new way to get the meter right, or find a new word.  He might also fill a line with something effective--that is, find padding the make the line the proper length that improves the poem.  Might even drop the unpadded part!

  --Bob G.


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From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Sat Feb 19 05:31:26 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:31:26 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
In-Reply-To: <021a01c5161f$785571b0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <29.6d2ed8c0.2f477c73@cs.com>
	<021a01c5161f$785571b0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1108809086.4217157e0876c@webmail.ukonline.net>

Another to add, the mnemonic feature of regular meter. In illiterate cultures 
fundamental, now not, but it still has its value. I've never had so detailed 
an engagement with any poetry as with Shakespeare's sonnets, just because I 
amused myself by learning a few by heart. The mnemonic power, in this case, of 
combining syllable counting, accentual pattern, and rhyme, is very powerful. 

And even today those few poets whose lines have made it into my portable mental 
library - small scraps of Larkin, Hill, Lowell, e.g. - invariably they're 
metrical - occupy a disproportionate part of my attention compared to writers 
who I might think greater but can't bring to mind in the same way when I'm 
idling in a traffic queue. While it's possible to learn non-metrical text by 
heart it's difficult to get it back once the memory goes hazy, whereas by 
sitting there going "When yellow leaves, or none or few, do hang / and dum-de 
dum-de shake against the cold.." you can often bring the words back. So I 
possess the poetry, and it possesses me, in a way that isn't possible for other 
poetries. 

As I say, now a minor value, perhaps atavistic, and no doubt one that is 
chiefly relevant in situations out of the reach of books. But of course this is 
still the predominant way of life of most people on earth. People who never 
read poetry or anything else continue to know bits of metrical poetry because 
it washes around like plankton in the ocean of common speech.               









Quoting Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>:

>     I perceive five values of meter, beyond just its ability to sound nice to
> most people:  (1) its ability to announce the presence of art; (2) its
> ability to refer to and tie into the poem under way other poems with the same
> of similar meter; (3) its ability to help express appropriate emotions
> (though I think this limited); (4) its ability to counter difficulty with a
> simple pleasurabilty; and (5) its ability to suggest a certain dexterity on
> the part of a poet who has mastered it (also a minor value, but there).
> 
>     I'm sure I've left some out.  Any others you or anyone else can think of,
> Sam?
> 
>     --Bob G.
> 
> 
> 
>   The so-called "heuristic" function in that the writer commits himself to a
> pattern and must shape his thoughts into words that fit the pattern.  This
> process often leads the writer in directions he/she might not have thought of
> before.  It gets more complex with more complex forms.  For example, a writer
> may begin a poem with a certain idea.  Then he sees that the idea is
> beginning to shape itself into a sonnet.  But as he writes the sonnet, the
> demands of the meter, rhyme scheme, and structure begin to affect the shape
> of the original thought.  And when he finishes the sonnet, he may find that
> it succeeds, but it doesn't conform to the idea he originally conceived.  I
> think of some of Michelangelo's unfinished statues--the Rondanini Pieta, for
> example.  The sculptor (and sonneteer) finds that his conception won't fit
> the block of stone he started with.  He either revises the sculpture or
> abandons it.  The first poem I ever published was about the Rondanini Pieta. 
> And it was a sonnet too.
> 
>   http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelo31.html 
>   Yes, definitely.  And the way it forces one to consider more possibilities
> than free verse would in order to satisfy the metric requirement.  So the
> poet might surprise himself by using some word in a new way to get the meter
> right, or find a new word.  He might also fill a line with something
> effective--that is, find padding the make the line the proper length that
> improves the poem.  Might even drop the unpadded part!
> 
>   --Bob G.
> 
> 
> 




----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 19 08:29:08 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:29:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
In-Reply-To: <1108809086.4217157e0876c@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEONKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


And let's not forget the flip side of this--the commercial and political uses
of meter to stick bits of info and disinfo into our geraniums.

Hal
  
{    Another to add, the mnemonic feature of regular meter. In illiterate cultures 
{    fundamental, now not, but it still has its value. I've never had so detailed 
{    an engagement with any poetry as with Shakespeare's sonnets, just because I 
{    amused myself by learning a few by heart. The mnemonic power, in this case, of 
{    combining syllable counting, accentual pattern, and rhyme, is very powerful. 
{    
{    And even today those few poets whose lines have made it into my portable mental 
{    library - small scraps of Larkin, Hill, Lowell, e.g. - invariably they're 
{    metrical - occupy a disproportionate part of my attention compared to writers 
{    who I might think greater but can't bring to mind in the same way when I'm 
{    idling in a traffic queue. While it's possible to learn non-metrical text by 
{    heart it's difficult to get it back once the memory goes hazy, whereas by 
{    sitting there going "When yellow leaves, or none or few, do hang / and dum-de 
{    dum-de shake against the cold.." you can often bring the words back. So I 
{    possess the poetry, and it possesses me, in a way that isn't possible for other 
{    poetries. 
{    
{    As I say, now a minor value, perhaps atavistic, and no doubt one that is 
{    chiefly relevant in situations out of the reach of books. But of course this is 
{    still the predominant way of life of most people on earth. People who never 
{    read poetry or anything else continue to know bits of metrical poetry because 
{    it washes around like plankton in the ocean of common speech.               
{    
{    
{    
{    
{    
{    
{    
{    
{    
{    Quoting Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>:
{    
{    >     I perceive five values of meter, beyond just its ability to sound nice to
{    > most people:  (1) its ability to announce the presence of art; (2) its
{    > ability to refer to and tie into the poem under way other poems with the same
{    > of similar meter; (3) its ability to help express appropriate emotions
{    > (though I think this limited); (4) its ability to counter difficulty with a
{    > simple pleasurabilty; and (5) its ability to suggest a certain dexterity on
{    > the part of a poet who has mastered it (also a minor value, but there).
{    > 
{    >     I'm sure I've left some out.  Any others you or anyone else can think of,
{    > Sam?
{    > 
{    >     --Bob G.
{    > 
{    > 
{    > 
{    >   The so-called "heuristic" function in that the writer commits himself to a
{    > pattern and must shape his thoughts into words that fit the pattern.  This
{    > process often leads the writer in directions he/she might not have thought of
{    > before.  It gets more complex with more complex forms.  For example, a writer
{    > may begin a poem with a certain idea.  Then he sees that the idea is
{    > beginning to shape itself into a sonnet.  But as he writes the sonnet, the
{    > demands of the meter, rhyme scheme, and structure begin to affect the shape
{    > of the original thought.  And when he finishes the sonnet, he may find that
{    > it succeeds, but it doesn't conform to the idea he originally conceived.  I
{    > think of some of Michelangelo's unfinished statues--the Rondanini Pieta, for
{    > example.  The sculptor (and sonneteer) finds that his conception won't fit
{    > the block of stone he started with.  He either revises the sculpture or
{    > abandons it.  The first poem I ever published was about the Rondanini Pieta. 
{    > And it was a sonnet too.
{    > 
{    >   http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelo31.html 
{    >   Yes, definitely.  And the way it forces one to consider more possibilities
{    > than free verse would in order to satisfy the metric requirement.  So the
{    > poet might surprise himself by using some word in a new way to get the meter
{    > right, or find a new word.  He might also fill a line with something
{    > effective--that is, find padding the make the line the proper length that
{    > improves the poem.  Might even drop the unpadded part!
{    > 
{    >   --Bob G.
{    > 
{    > 
{    > 
{    
{    
{    
{    
{    ----------------------------------------------
{    This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb 19 08:50:52 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:50:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <29.6d2ed8c0.2f477c73@cs.com><021a01c5161f$785571b0$79b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1108809086.4217157e0876c@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <00f401c5168a$074fdee0$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Thanks for the following, Michael.  I'd forgotten it.  Maybe because I'm 
biased against memorability--from my experience that the easier a piece of 
music is to remember, the more trivial it generally is.  My kind of poets 
try to make their works hard to remember the details of--  Except for 
minimalistic poems, which are very easy to remember.  So I'm inconsistent.

--Bob G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter


> Another to add, the mnemonic feature of regular meter. In illiterate 
> cultures
> fundamental, now not, but it still has its value. I've never had so 
> detailed
> an engagement with any poetry as with Shakespeare's sonnets, just because 
> I
> amused myself by learning a few by heart. The mnemonic power, in this 
> case, of
> combining syllable counting, accentual pattern, and rhyme, is very 
> powerful.
>
> And even today those few poets whose lines have made it into my portable 
> mental
> library - small scraps of Larkin, Hill, Lowell, e.g. - invariably they're
> metrical - occupy a disproportionate part of my attention compared to 
> writers
> who I might think greater but can't bring to mind in the same way when I'm
> idling in a traffic queue. While it's possible to learn non-metrical text 
> by
> heart it's difficult to get it back once the memory goes hazy, whereas by
> sitting there going "When yellow leaves, or none or few, do hang / and 
> dum-de
> dum-de shake against the cold.." you can often bring the words back. So I
> possess the poetry, and it possesses me, in a way that isn't possible for 
> other
> poetries.
>
> As I say, now a minor value, perhaps atavistic, and no doubt one that is
> chiefly relevant in situations out of the reach of books. But of course 
> this is
> still the predominant way of life of most people on earth. People who 
> never
> read poetry or anything else continue to know bits of metrical poetry 
> because
> it washes around like plankton in the ocean of common speech.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>:
>
>>     I perceive five values of meter, beyond just its ability to sound 
>> nice to
>> most people:  (1) its ability to announce the presence of art; (2) its
>> ability to refer to and tie into the poem under way other poems with the 
>> same
>> of similar meter; (3) its ability to help express appropriate emotions
>> (though I think this limited); (4) its ability to counter difficulty with 
>> a
>> simple pleasurabilty; and (5) its ability to suggest a certain dexterity 
>> on
>> the part of a poet who has mastered it (also a minor value, but there).
>>
>>     I'm sure I've left some out.  Any others you or anyone else can think 
>> of,
>> Sam?
>>
>>     --Bob G.
>>
>>
>>
>>   The so-called "heuristic" function in that the writer commits himself 
>> to a
>> pattern and must shape his thoughts into words that fit the pattern. 
>> This
>> process often leads the writer in directions he/she might not have 
>> thought of
>> before.  It gets more complex with more complex forms.  For example, a 
>> writer
>> may begin a poem with a certain idea.  Then he sees that the idea is
>> beginning to shape itself into a sonnet.  But as he writes the sonnet, 
>> the
>> demands of the meter, rhyme scheme, and structure begin to affect the 
>> shape
>> of the original thought.  And when he finishes the sonnet, he may find 
>> that
>> it succeeds, but it doesn't conform to the idea he originally conceived. 
>> I
>> think of some of Michelangelo's unfinished statues--the Rondanini Pieta, 
>> for
>> example.  The sculptor (and sonneteer) finds that his conception won't 
>> fit
>> the block of stone he started with.  He either revises the sculpture or
>> abandons it.  The first poem I ever published was about the Rondanini 
>> Pieta.
>> And it was a sonnet too.
>>
>>   http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelo31.html
>>   Yes, definitely.  And the way it forces one to consider more 
>> possibilities
>> than free verse would in order to satisfy the metric requirement.  So the
>> poet might surprise himself by using some word in a new way to get the 
>> meter
>> right, or find a new word.  He might also fill a line with something
>> effective--that is, find padding the make the line the proper length that
>> improves the poem.  Might even drop the unpadded part!
>>
>>   --Bob G.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Feb 19 11:02:21 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:02:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cubist Moments (David Shapiro)
Message-ID: <s2170ed0.062@mail.highland.edu>

A Cubist moment, via David Shapiro:

"Here's something ssmart that P told Rubin, when asked Is there 
always a subject in cubism: No, it's more like a perfume, before you,
to the 
side of you, behind you0--the perfume of an object."



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 19 11:57:39 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:57:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
In-Reply-To: <00f401c5168a$074fdee0$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEPEKAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

    
{    Thanks for the following, Michael.  I'd forgotten it.  Maybe because I'm 
{    biased against memorability--from my experience that the easier a piece of 
{    music is to remember, the more trivial it generally is.  My kind of poets 
{    try to make their works hard to remember the details of--  Except for 
{    minimalistic poems, which are very easy to remember.  So I'm inconsistent.
{    
{    --Bob G.

Ah, but not foolishly so.

Hal          "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam."

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb 19 12:12:55 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:12:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <104.5b260225.2f48cd97@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/18/2005 7:08:58 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> Yes, definitely.  And the way it forces one to consider more possibilities 
> than free verse would in order to satisfy the metric requirement.  So the 
> poet might surprise himself by using some word in a new way to get the meter 
> right, or find a new word.  He might also fill a line with something 
> effective--that is, find padding the make the line the proper length that improves the 
> poem.  Might even drop the unpadded part! 
> 
> --Bob G. 
> 
> 
On the other hand, he might pad the line (or the sonnet or whatever) out with 
a lot of padding. There's a downside to this, obviously.
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Feb 19 12:16:01 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:16:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s2172019.067@mail.highland.edu>

Michael,

This is wonderfully intriguing stuff. I sure do hope you will write
that essay!

Kent

>I'll think about this (and Ashbery) for a long time and perhaps make a

considered response in an essay one day. One thing off the top of my
head: 
first, that in moving away from meter I also meant moving away from
Anything 
that Could be scanned. In principle, there could be meters that use
semantic 
units in the same way as rhyme or syllable or accent or quantity. In
the poetry 
of the Psalms one could say there is a "rhyme" between paired verses
which is a 
semantic one: they vary the same statement. I have seen proposals for
semantic 
meters where "red" rhymes with "blue", and more subtly, "later" 
with "lingered", "came to fruition" with "sub-total". To speculate a
little 
further, it seems to me that Ashbery's poems have a relationship with
prose in 
their rejection of meter, but not the obvious one. I know this is a
dangerous 
remark; I am not for a moment saying that Ashbery's poems are, in a
reductive 
way, lineated prose. What I mean is more like this. In general feel,
reading 
Ashbery reminds me of reading a relaxed nineteenth-century blank verse
poem, 
perhaps the Prelude, or more closely still a Keatsian verse epistle, or
the 
Browning of the Parleyings... what without animus could be called
prosaic poems 
(who was it said, "Meredith is a prose Browning and so is Browning?"..)
But of 
course when I make this analogy all the terms are transformed. - any
meter in 
Ashbery is implicitly in quotes, like a song in a play. Anyway, what
you say 
about floating structures seems aptly suggestive of the kind of
large-scale 
effects of the verse paragraph in these blank-verse poems, which is
somehow 
separate from, yet depends on, the modest background of iambic flow. So
I think 
our responses are along the same lines. I am not trying to claim a line
of 
influence here, no doubt Stevens and French poetry are the real
literary 
lineage. But even this is of minor interest compared with Ashbery's
newness. 
One gets hung up on literary explanation, it's always too narrow. I
think that 
the "electrification of the countryside" has everything to do with, not
just 
(or even especially) Ashbery but so many post-metrical poems. Whether
it's 
cinema, windscreen-wipers, bass guitars or washing machines we do hear

everything differently now and speak differently too. Whether poetry
ought to 
reflect that or not - I don't like those big "oughts" - , it seems to
me that 
it's just bound to.



From lesrho at fullnet.net  Sat Feb 19 11:24:57 2005
From: lesrho at fullnet.net (LesRho)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:24:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Don't Be Afraid of Death (Acorrected version) 
Message-ID: <000201c516b0$961c7630$3d19e2d8@retiredud69srz>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: LesRho 
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ; lesrho 
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:18 PM
Subject: Don't Be Afraid of Death 


                     Dying's Not So Bad

Being afraid of dying can be very real.
If we dwell on that someday when we
Won't be hearing any of the bell's peal
And we find that there is nowhere to flee

Most stresses and strains take a big toll
Exacting their weariness on us as pain
As anxiety; it creeps in  to ruin our soul
Keeping it in check can be a big strain

Thinking fearfully of our own final day
Can cause you enormous, useless fear
Thoughts of your death are not the best way
Don't think of your own ; you won't be  here!

We can't experience the death of another
By sitting by their bedside to talk or to pray
We dare not tell them that death is no bother
Since it's not ours; this is their's; not our Day 

Can we face death and always be brave ?
What's the use of trying not to act how we feel,
As long as it's someone else going to the grave
Trying just to hang on  for one more day to steal.


Les Easley SFO
A Franciscan Poet
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb 19 14:17:52 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:17:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <104.5b260225.2f48cd97@cs.com>
Message-ID: <017e01c516b7$b5b98df0$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In a message dated 2/18/2005 7:08:58 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 

    Yes, definitely.  And the way it forces one to consider more possibilities than free verse would in order to satisfy the metric requirement.  So the poet might surprise himself by using some word in a new way to get the meter right, or find a new word.  He might also fill a line with something effective--that is, find padding the make the line the proper length that improves the poem.  Might even drop the unpadded part! 

    --Bob G. 



  On the other hand, he might pad the line (or the sonnet or whatever) out with a lot of padding. There's a downside to this, obviously. 
  Absolutely.  By the way, I'm posting some of what you've said on this, and what Michael P did on the mnemonic value of meter at my blog.  I trust you don't mind?  I'll remove anything of yours you want me to.

  My entries on meter start at:

  http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00381.html

  --Bob G.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb 19 14:35:13 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:35:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <111.44443194.2f48eef1@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/19/2005 1:18:20 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> Absolutely.  By the way, I'm posting some of what you've said on this, and 
> what Michael P did on the mnemonic value of meter at my blog.  I trust you 
> don't mind?  I'll remove anything of yours you want me to. 
> 
> 
No, that's fine.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 19 14:41:32 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:41:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets @ The Gates 
Message-ID: <7b.3f4177d3.2f48f06c@aol.com>

Poets @ The Gates 

Poets are invited to participate in "Poetry Through THE GATES" next
Saturday, Feb. 26, 1-5pm (raindate Sunday, Feb 27). The idea is for
poets to read poems and give voice to the visuals - two poets will be at
each designated site. Also, Colleen Delaney and Douglas Rothschild are
putting together a book of poems inspired by THE GATES and poets will be
working as poetry ambassadors, providing (supplied to you) paper and
pencils for the muse's use, and collecting the spontaneous poems which
will then go into the book. Or, people can send their poems in later to
www.poemsinthepark.com (under construction). Got that? Well, if you have
questions, want to sign up, want a site to be assigned to or just want
to be in touch: write poemsinthepark@ yahoo.com. This message brought to
you by the Bowery Poetry Club, who is "organizing"; designated sites
along the Christo-Jeanne-Claude route will be listed at
www.bowerypoetry.com. Nathaniel Siegel is also organizing. 

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb 19 17:02:38 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:02:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <111.44443194.2f48eef1@cs.com>
Message-ID: <032701c516ce$ba0dae60$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In a message dated 2/19/2005 1:18:20 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 

Absolutely.  By the way, I'm posting some of what you've said on this, and what Michael P did on the mnemonic value of meter at my blog.  I trust you don't mind?  I'll remove anything of yours you want me to. 


No, that's fine. 

Thanks.  I got four blog entries out of this topic! I think I'm through with meter for a while, though.

Makes me think that it'd be valuable to have a New-Poetry Reporter who wrote up the productive discussions from New-Poetry--and we have had a few.  I wouldn't mind if the NEA subsidized something like that for New-Poetry and similar groups.  Actually, a reporter-at-large for all such poetry groups might be a good idea.  (And, no, I'm not out for the job.)

--Bob G.



--Bob G.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb 19 17:31:04 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:31:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <45.224efb6f.2f491828@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/19/2005 4:03:00 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> Makes me think that it'd be valuable to have a New-Poetry Reporter who 
> wrote up the productive discussions from New-Poetry--and we have had a few.  I 
> wouldn't mind if the NEA subsidized something like that for New-Poetry and 
> similar groups.  Actually, a reporter-at-large for all such poetry groups might 
> be a good idea.  (And, no, I'm not out for the job.)
>   
>  --Bob G.
>   
> 
If this were ever converted to something like www.eratosphere.com, then 
everything would be available and searchable.  Otherwise, it would be quite a task. 
 The Wom-Po list-serve is archived and available through Google.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb 19 17:51:34 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:51:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <45.224efb6f.2f491828@cs.com>
Message-ID: <039201c516d5$90109c60$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Makes me think that it'd be valuable to have a New-Poetry Reporter who wrote up the productive discussions from New-Poetry--and we have had a few.  I wouldn't mind if the NEA subsidized something like that for New-Poetry and similar groups.  Actually, a reporter-at-large for all such poetry groups might be a good idea.  (And, no, I'm not out for the job.)
  
--Bob G.
  


  If this were ever converted to something like www.eratosphere.com, then everything would be available and searchable.  Otherwise, it would be quite a task.  The Wom-Po list-serve is archived and available through Google. 
  But New-Poetry has a good archive.  What I meant, though, was a kind of Science News for these kinds of list-serves.  It would be a lot of work.  The output would resemble my last four blog entries--if I made an essay out of them.  They're more like four separate sets of notes for essays now.



  --Bob G.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb 19 17:57:29 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:57:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <1ea.36e17191.2f491e59@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/19/2005 4:51:47 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> But New-Poetry has a good archive.  What I meant, though, was a kind of 
> Science News for these kinds of list-serves.  It would be a lot of work.  The 
> output would resemble my last four blog entries--if I made an essay out of 
> them.  They're more like four separate sets of notes for essays now. 
> 
> 
How do I access the new-poetry archives?
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb 19 17:59:10 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:59:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
Message-ID: <d2.22f9ea05.2f491ebe@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/19/2005 4:57:55 PM Central Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: 
> In a message dated 2/19/2005 4:51:47 PM Central Standard Time, 
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> >> But New-Poetry has a good archive.  What I meant, though, was a kind of 
>> Science News for these kinds of list-serves.  It would be a lot of work.  The 
>> output would resemble my last four blog entries--if I made an essay out of 
>> them.  They're more like four separate sets of notes for essays now. 
>> 
>> 
> How do I access the new-poetry archives?
> 
Never mind.  I recalled how to do this.
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From duemer at gmail.com  Sat Feb 19 18:46:40 2005
From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:46:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s2172019.067@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2172019.067@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <e8b111d7050219154672aeb505@mail.gmail.com>

"Whether poetry
ought to
reflect that or not - I don't like those big "oughts" - , it seems to
me that
it's just bound to."

That's how it came out in my email client & it seemed rather lovely, a
little like middle period WCW except for the axis of that long central
line. In any case, I agree with the sentiments.


-- 
Joseph Duemer
Professor of Humanities
Clarkson University
[chujoe.net]


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb 19 18:53:56 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:53:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Omnism/ rhythm & meter
References: <1ea.36e17191.2f491e59@cs.com>
Message-ID: <03e001c516e7$cd8ec730$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I always have trouble but doing a search on New-Poetry eventually gets me to it.  I always have to play around, trying combinations because "new poetry" results in a lot of hits.  I think you get the home page and have to look for "archives" of "see previous posts" or something.  James, I'm sure can tell you.

--Bob 
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Feb 20 03:04:50 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:04:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s2172019.067@mail.highland.edu>
	<e8b111d7050219154672aeb505@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c51722$de2a53d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Joe - good to see you around these parts.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter


> "Whether poetry
> ought to
> reflect that or not - I don't like those big "oughts" - , it seems to
> me that
> it's just bound to."
>
> That's how it came out in my email client & it seemed rather lovely, a
> little like middle period WCW except for the axis of that long central
> line. In any case, I agree with the sentiments.
>
>
> -- 
> Joseph Duemer
> Professor of Humanities
> Clarkson University
> [chujoe.net]
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb 20 04:44:09 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:44:09 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pierre de Ronsard & Joris Lenstra 
Message-ID: <004a01c51730$ba07ce70$c9ed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

"The Rose

Mignonne, allons voir si la rose 
Qui ce matin avait ?close 
Sa robe de pourpre au soleil 
A point perdu cette v?pr?e 
Les plis de sa robe pourpr?e 
Et son teint au v?tre pareil. 

Las ! voyez comme en peu d'espace, 
Mignonne, elle a dessus la place, 
Las, las ! ses beaut?s laiss? choir ! 
O vraiment mar?tre Nature 
Puisqu'une telle fleur ne dure 
Que du matin jusque au soir ! 

Donc si vous me croyez, mignonne, 
Tandis que votre ?ge fleuronne 
En sa plus verte nouveaut?, 
Cueillez, cueillez votre jeunesse : 
Comme ? cette fleur la vieillesse 
Fera ternir votre beaut?."

Pierre de Ronsard (1524-1585)

from the interview with Joris Lenstra on Here Comes Everybody: http://herecomeseverybody.blogspot.com/


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb 20 11:50:14 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:50:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s2172019.067@mail.highland.edu>
	<e8b111d7050219154672aeb505@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00df01c5176c$40976e60$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> "Whether poetry
> ought to
> reflect that or not - I don't like those big "oughts" - , it seems to
> me that
> it's just bound to."
> 
> That's how it came out in my email client & it seemed rather lovely, a
> little like middle period WCW except for the axis of that long central
> line. In any case, I agree with the sentiments.
> 
> Joseph Duemer
> Professor of Humanities
> Clarkson University
> [chujoe.net]

Reflect what?  I musta missed the post you're quoting a poem out of.

--Bob G.



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 20 12:48:28 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:48:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <005c01c51722$de2a53d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BE3E298C.FB22%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 2/20/05 2:04 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

> Joe - good to see you around these parts.
> 
> Tad Richards

Amen.  It's been a while, Joe. . ..


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 20 12:50:50 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:50:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] NewPo info page
Message-ID: <BE3E2A1A.FB24%grahamd@ripon.edu>

The archives, as well as info on subscription options, etc., is available
here:

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

And this link will take you diret to the archives:

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Sun Feb 20 13:52:33 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:52:33 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog 
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050220125215.03230ec0@mail.ilstu.edu>


The Anxiety of Alan Sondheim
regarding his Trip to Normal, Illinois


Alan Sondheim is Coming to Illinois State University
Home of Beer Nuts, State Farm Insurance, and the GOP


William James Bowdlerizes
Thoreau's Darkness


Henry David Thoreau
and the Enlightenment Factor of Loving-Kindness


A Sesquicentennial Procession of Thoreau's Daily Journals

Interview with G G:
a student Newspaper in Muncie Indiana

Advice about Writing Love Poems

An Inaugural Speech by a Juniper Bush

Profile of GG at Chicago Postmodern Poetry

http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Feb 20 15:52:35 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:52:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Michael Heller, "Manhattan Spleen"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEBCKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Manhattan Spleen

The trees: knobbed fingers grasping at the grayish mottled sky. We had come
from downtown to see a friend who was appearing in a ballet, and, since
there was time before the performance, we, like others around us, sat on the
benches before the massively constructed concerthalls, pale stone edifices
which seemed designed to defend the arts rather than house them.
     As we sprawled there taking some pleasure from the fresh air and an
occasional piercing dart of sun, a dark suited man with a terribly deformed
face came walking by. It was an unusual deformity, for though the skin was
clean and unbroken, one could see that the right side of the face was
involved in some gruesome disease which had swollen the jaw out of all
proportion. The illness had perhaps destroyed the eye above the jaw, for the
man wore dark glasses and under the right lens one could see an eye patch,
really more like a cup than a patch. The man?s jaw worked constantly, quite
apart it seemed from any volition of his own, as though it were ruminating
on its own condition. But he went by, and as he did, I thought how in this
city, the grotesque, both physical and mental, is frequently encountered.
     Actually, it set my mind thinking of certain artists who often exploit
physical disfiguration to indicate a kind of more corruption. I was thinking
in particular of a rather well-known film director who loved to make use of
dwarves, of maimed and scale-eyed beggars in all sorts of tableaux. Such
things can be effective in a soft and sentimental way. An audience, gripped
by horror, will make an easy equation of physical and spiritual corruption,
a fact which politicians and moralists have not ignored (indeed, one thinks
of all those examples of the wages of sin inevitably depicted in terms of
venereal disease or insanity).
     Now would, it strikes me, may properly bear such a function, and yet
how rare that is! For one may gaze somewhat ashamedly at the ambulatory
veteran or the armless sleeve of a uniform at a parade and the spectre of
social corruption will truly fly into one?s brain?along with the image of
bravery, etc.
     But then, even these thoughts momentarily slipped from my mind as we
entered the auditorium to see our friend dance. And sitting there in the
darkness, I felt that very palpable thing, that pervasive eroticism of the
taut beauty of the dancers in motion. Imagine my sudden shock then, after
enjoying, after being absorbed in that severe grace, to have the house
lights come on for the intermission and see, sitting only a few rows away,
the man with the deformity, sopping away at his lips with a handkerchief,
his jaw working furiously like a pestle in a mortar.
     Curiously, I looked at the people on either side of him wondering how
they responded to his presence. For where else but in great cities?now huge
mill-ends and heaps of chaotic regularity?does the grotesque strike with
such force, if we let it. In cities, where arrogantly we think (or thought)
ourselves masters, the grotesque plays its hand with all the arbitrariness
we thought conquered. Nevertheless, the people near the man were ignoring
him.
     See the contrast I suffered here: the impression of those superb bodies
in the rigor of an art form, as against:

                the man?s wish for a finely chiseled jaw
                of lips which could be controlled long enough
                to bestow a kiss,
                                    dreams of impossibility
                that link to the thousands of dreams
                of being other than one was

How we were joined under the weight of this accidental insufficiency no more
explicable than health and wholeness?that jaw ever-working, a perpetuum
mobile of pain itself!
     In that moment, all I could feel was contagion, a desire to leave.
     But then my friend, who is often of amazingly good spirits, as thought
secretly reading my thoughts, pointed to the man and said, that must be the
Critic. And he laughed and I laughed, but weakly, and only for my friend?s
humor. And when the performance ended, I hurried my wife and my friend out
of the theater, making sure we took the aisle farthest from where the man
had been sitting. And outside the air was fresh, was fresh, but the clouds
tumbling across the immense panes of the building glass threw me again into
a panic.

--Michael Heller

fr. Knowledge
[New York: Sun, 1979]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb 20 15:59:31 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:59:31 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog 
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050220125215.03230ec0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <002b01c5178f$12f33ca0$90eb3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Say hello to Alan from me, and have a good time,
take care,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gabriel Gudding" <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 7:52 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog


>
> The Anxiety of Alan Sondheim
> regarding his Trip to Normal, Illinois
>
>
> Alan Sondheim is Coming to Illinois State University
> Home of Beer Nuts, State Farm Insurance, and the GOP
>
>
> William James Bowdlerizes
> Thoreau's Darkness
>
>
> Henry David Thoreau
> and the Enlightenment Factor of Loving-Kindness
>
>
> A Sesquicentennial Procession of Thoreau's Daily Journals
>
> Interview with G G:
> a student Newspaper in Muncie Indiana
>
> Advice about Writing Love Poems
>
> An Inaugural Speech by a Juniper Bush
>
> Profile of GG at Chicago Postmodern Poetry
>
> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb 20 17:14:40 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 23:14:40 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] NarcissusWorks
Message-ID: <008101c51799$92e0ac40$90eb3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>


I would also like to advertise my blwough:

there are pics of this nice art gallery MeranoArte, I always love to go and visit;

some notes on the latest movies I watched: 

The Draughtsman Contract by Peter Greenaway
Solaris by Andrei Tarkovsky
Edward II by Derek Jarman
A woman under the influence - and The Killing of a Chinese Bookie by John Cassavetes
by Derek Jarman again: Super8 Programme (he is English) vol. 1 & 2; 

I advertise Big Bridge the great poetry site of Michael Rothenberg and there is one of my pOms among the elegies;

I translated a couple of pOms by Michael Rothenberg and one by Rebecca Seiferle;

I send you to read a good pOm by Chris Murray on her Texfiles;

and I add my _flashing scarlet fishing nets_;

I also thank James Finnegan for the list of audios he sent to the list,
and talk of the birth day of the list with Carl Sandburg's God's Children sent by James.

and much and more...
thanks for the visit, if you wish you can leave a couple of pennies to the guardian gods at the entrance :-)
appreciated,
 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun Feb 20 05:32:28 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:32:28 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery
In-Reply-To: <200502201700.j1KH05pX004274@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200502201700.j1KH05pX004274@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300be3e148844a5@[204.215.201.198]>

One should always remember that Ashbery was not an English major at Harvard.
He may be from upstate New York, his people may have been in the 
apple business (Hence, _Some Trees_.), but Ashbery was in the French 
department and later knew how to make his way to Paris and write art 
reviews for the International Herald Tribune.  His sense of 
AmerEnglish from the outset did not start out on the iambic foot. 
So, he didn't need to break it.  And, besides, his brain just isn't 
wired the way the rest of our's are.  The synapses fire off uniquely 
as he practices creative mismanagement of common syntax (uh, oh, 
calling Larry Summers!) in common conversation.  Ever see the fierce 
Ashberian glare as he stares fiercely about when ascending escalators?

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n


-- 


From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Mon Feb 21 07:01:35 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:01:35 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <e8b111d7050219154672aeb505@mail.gmail.com>
References: <s2172019.067@mail.highland.edu>
	<e8b111d7050219154672aeb505@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1108987295.4219cd9ff2dac@webmail.ukonline.net>

Yes, I do see what you mean - it's my own inadequate email client (thanks, UK 
Online) that's responsible for all the lineation. The more times I change my 
mind about what to write and go back and edit, the more new lines it creates. 
So I guess it accidentally works a little like a MacLow poem generator, 
highlighting the bits where I had difficulty expressing myself.... 

Michael


Quoting Joseph Duemer <duemer at gmail.com>:

> "Whether poetry
> ought to
> reflect that or not - I don't like those big "oughts" - , it seems to
> me that
> it's just bound to."
> 
> That's how it came out in my email client & it seemed rather lovely, a
> little like middle period WCW except for the axis of that long central
> line. In any case, I agree with the sentiments.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Joseph Duemer
> Professor of Humanities
> Clarkson University
> [chujoe.net]
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




----------------------------------------------
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 21 08:17:02 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:17:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s2172019.067@mail.highland.edu><e8b111d7050219154672aeb505@mail.gmail.com>
	<1108987295.4219cd9ff2dac@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <00b801c51817$a22c64e0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

So, Michael, what were you talking about?  I missed it.  What is it poetry 
ought, or is bound, to reflect?

--Bob G.

> Yes, I do see what you mean - it's my own inadequate email client (thanks, 
> UK
> Online) that's responsible for all the lineation. The more times I change 
> my
> mind about what to write and go back and edit, the more new lines it 
> creates.
> So I guess it accidentally works a little like a MacLow poem generator,
> highlighting the bits where I had difficulty expressing myself....
>
> Michael
>
>
> Quoting Joseph Duemer <duemer at gmail.com>:
>
>> "Whether poetry
>> ought to
>> reflect that or not - I don't like those big "oughts" - , it seems to
>> me that
>> it's just bound to."




From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Mon Feb 21 08:27:57 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:27:57 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <00b801c51817$a22c64e0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <s2172019.067@mail.highland.edu><e8b111d7050219154672aeb505@mail.gmail.com>
	<1108987295.4219cd9ff2dac@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<00b801c51817$a22c64e0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1108992477.4219e1dd71558@webmail.ukonline.net>

Quoting Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>:

> So, Michael, what were you talking about?  I missed it.  What is it poetry 
> ought, or is bound, to reflect?
> 
> --Bob G.
> 

It was this:

Re: Kent, about Ashbery (quoted at end) - Oh, this is too much for an email! 
I'll think about this (and Ashbery) for a long time and perhaps make a 
considered response in an essay one day. One thing off the top of my head: 
first, that in moving away from meter I also meant moving away from Anything 
that Could be scanned. In principle, there could be meters that use semantic 
units in the same way as rhyme or syllable or accent or quantity. In the 
poetry 
of the Psalms one could say there is a "rhyme" between paired verses which is 
a 
semantic one: they vary the same statement. I have seen proposals for semantic 
meters where "red" rhymes with "blue", and more subtly, "later" 
with "lingered", "came to fruition" with "sub-total". To speculate a little 
further, it seems to me that Ashbery's poems have a relationship with prose in 
their rejection of meter, but not the obvious one. I know this is a dangerous 
remark; I am not for a moment saying that Ashbery's poems are, in a reductive 
way, lineated prose. What I mean is more like this. In general feel, reading 
Ashbery reminds me of reading a relaxed nineteenth-century blank verse poem, 
perhaps the Prelude, or more closely still a Keatsian verse epistle, or the 
Browning of the Parleyings... what without animus could be called prosaic 
poems 
(who was it said, "Meredith is a prose Browning and so is Browning?"..) But of 
course when I make this analogy all the terms are transformed. - any meter in 
Ashbery is implicitly in quotes, like a song in a play. Anyway, what you say 
about floating structures seems aptly suggestive of the kind of large-scale 
effects of the verse paragraph in these blank-verse poems, which is somehow 
separate from, yet depends on, the modest background of iambic flow. So I 
think 
our responses are along the same lines. I am not trying to claim a line of 
influence here, no doubt Stevens and French poetry are the real literary 
lineage. But even this is of minor interest compared with Ashbery's newness. 
One gets hung up on literary explanation, it's always too narrow. I think that 
the "electrification of the countryside" has everything to do with, not just 
(or even especially) Ashbery but so many post-metrical poems. Whether it's 
cinema, windscreen-wipers, bass guitars or washing machines we do hear 
everything differently now and speak differently too. Whether poetry ought to 
reflect that or not - I don't like those big "oughts" - , it seems to me that 
it's just bound to.


Re: Gabriel, on Wyatt. My incautious remark about Wyatt's invention of 
Poulter's measure was based on over-extrapolating from a sentence in C.S. 
Lewis's history of 16th century literature. I am grateful and relieved that 
Robin's scholarship has come to the aid of some of my other 
remarks.             

Re: "Th'expence of spirit in a waste of shame". The nominal ictus is never 
quite the same as the actual accentuation, which indeed is partly the reader's 
preserve. Another example would be the "and" in Milton's "Of Man's first 
disobedience, and the fruit" - I surmise that an unstressed monosyllable 
following a pause is enjoyed by all readers as an adroit equivalence for a 
formally accented syllable. What is enjoyed is the counterpoint between formal 
and actual rhythm, just like when when a musician applies phrasing to a 
melody. 
By the way, does anyone know if there is a parallel term to "ictus" to 
describe 
the formally Unstressed syllable, which is nevertheless sometimes actually 
stressed, like the "too" in "And summer's lease hath all too short a date"? 
It's awkward to have no shorter expression for "non-accented syllable".   
(Oh, and could someone let me know what a "schwa" is, too?)



Quoting Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>:

> 
> Question for Michael, regarding Ashbery and other writers in his vein:
> Could we say that a poet like Ashbery radically shifts prosody, as it
> were, into semantics? That in his work there is a kind of "quantitative
> patterning" of meaning at play, where ideation (the relational,
> non-narrative movement and coupling of packets of sense) can be taken as
> a manner of music and measure? Not that we have a way of scanning
> something like that, if the notion should even be viable (and not that
> Ashbery has some kind of prosodic system in mind!). But though I do
> think Ashbery can make great and surprising *sound* sometimes, this is
> where I "see" Ashbery's major prosody: at higher levels of semantic tone
> and color, where ebbs and flows, darknesses and luminosities of sense
> and information are patterned in delightfully novel, pleasurable, and
> sometimes discomfiting ways. This would come out of Mallarme, I guess,
> if so... But what about the idea that Ashbery is going after layers of
> *structure* that float above the strictly sonic vectors of the poem?
> 
> Kent
> 

> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




----------------------------------------------
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Feb 21 09:03:03 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:03:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <1108992477.4219e1dd71558@webmail.ukonline.net>
References: <00b801c51817$a22c64e0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4219A3C7.23917.5A8168@localhost>

On 21 Feb 2005 at 13:27, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote:
> Re: Kent, about Ashbery (quoted at end) - Oh, this is too much for an
> email! I'll think about this (and Ashbery) for a long time and perhaps
> make a considered response in an essay one day. One thing off the top
> of my head: first, that in moving away from meter I also meant moving
> away from Anything that Could be scanned.<

Right, so why not just call it prose and be done with it?

> In principle, there could be
> meters that use semantic units in the same way as rhyme or syllable or
> accent or quantity.<<

Once again, that sounds like our old friend "prose", using sentences 
and paragraphs and chapters. Golly. How avant garde.

> In the poetry of the Psalms one could say there is
> a "rhyme" between paired verses which is a semantic one: they vary the
> same statement. I have seen proposals for semantic meters where "red"
> rhymes with "blue", and more subtly, "later" with "lingered", "came to
> fruition" with "sub-total".<

My god, pretty soon you'll mention "topic sentences".

> To speculate a little further, it seems to
> me that Ashbery's poems have a relationship with prose in their
> rejection of meter, but not the obvious one. I know this is a
> dangerous remark; I am not for a moment saying that Ashbery's poems
> are, in a reductive way, lineated prose.<

Why not?

> ... One
> gets hung up on literary explanation, it's always too narrow. I think
> that the "electrification of the countryside" has everything to do
> with, not just (or even especially) Ashbery but so many post-metrical
> poems. Whether it's cinema, windscreen-wipers, bass guitars or washing
> machines we do hear everything differently now and speak differently
> too. Whether poetry ought to reflect that or not - I don't like those
> big "oughts" - , it seems to me that it's just bound to.<

But all this is merely in service of claiming that it's all prose 
now, isn't it? What you're saying here is that which of all that 
which is prose we choose to call "poetry" is entirely a matter of 
whim and caprice, and has nothing to do with any articulable 
definition of poetry. Poetry has become, in this view, whatever 
anyone chooses to call "poetry" -- is that right?

Marcus






From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Feb 21 09:07:34 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:07:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, Auden
Message-ID: <731bb17a05022106077407b50d@mail.gmail.com>

My *Writer's Almanac* email informs me that today is W.H. Auden's birthday:

It's the birthday of poet W(ystan) H(ugh) Auden, (books by this
author) born in York, England (1907). He grew up in an industrial area
of northern England. He loved the huge mining machines designed for
breaking up rocks, and he originally wanted to become a mining
engineer, but then one afternoon when he was 15, a friend asked him if
he ever wrote poetry. He never had, but being asked the question made
him want to start. He went on to become one of the greatest poets of
the English language.

One of my favorite Auden poems:

The Unknown Citizen 
W. H. Auden 

(To JS/07 M 378
This Marble Monument
Is Erected by the State)

He was found by the Bureau of Statistics to be
One against whom there was no official complaint,
And all the reports on his conduct agree
That, in the modern sense of an old-fashioned word, he was a saint,
For in everything he did he served the Greater Community.
Except for the War till the day he retired
He worked in a factory and never got fired,
But satisfied his employers, Fudge Motors Inc.
Yet he wasn't a scab or odd in his views,
For his Union reports that he paid his dues,
(Our report on his Union shows it was sound)
And our Social Psychology workers found
That he was popular with his mates and liked a drink.
The Press are convinced that he bought a paper every day
And that his reactions to advertisements were normal in every way.
Policies taken out in his name prove that he was fully insured,
And his Health-card shows he was once in a hospital but left it cured.
Both Producers Research and High-Grade Living declare
He was fully sensible to the advantages of the Instalment Plan
And had everything necessary to the Modern Man,
A phonograph, a radio, a car and a frigidaire.
Our researchers into Public Opinion are content 
That he held the proper opinions for the time of year;
When there was peace, he was for peace:  when there was war, he went.
He was married and added five children to the population,
Which our Eugenist says was the right number for a parent of his generation.
And our teachers report that he never interfered with their education.
Was he free? Was he happy? The question is absurd:
Had anything been wrong, we should certainly have heard.
 

>From *Another Time* by W. H. Auden, published by Random House, 1940


Jeff N.
-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 21 09:17:19 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:17:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New p037ry Technique: |_337 $p34k
References: <033901c51504$6c66b510$c5309b51@Robin>
	<42148F13.24642.8B339D@localhost>
Message-ID: <028a01c51820$0e020280$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The best poetry parodies parody the best examples of their targets, not the 
worst.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 21 09:19:19 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:19:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s2172019.067@mail.highland.edu><e8b111d7050219154672aeb505@mail.gmail.com><1108987295.4219cd9ff2dac@webmail.ukonline.net><00b801c51817$a22c64e0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1108992477.4219e1dd71558@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <029a01c51820$55a7af40$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> So, Michael, what were you talking about?  I missed it.  What is it 
>> poetry
>> ought, or is bound, to reflect?
>>
>> --Bob G.
>>
>
> It was this:

Thanks.

SNIP

> Re: "Th'expence of spirit in a waste of shame". The nominal ictus is never
> quite the same as the actual accentuation, which indeed is partly the 
> reader's
> preserve. Another example would be the "and" in Milton's "Of Man's first
> disobedience, and the fruit" - I surmise that an unstressed monosyllable
> following a pause is enjoyed by all readers as an adroit equivalence for a
> formally accented syllable. What is enjoyed is the counterpoint between 
> formal
> and actual rhythm, just like when when a musician applies phrasing to a
> melody.

I would stress Milton's "and," and feel he would have, too--because he's 
marching a Significant Summary out and because it says there's THIS, AND 
there's that.  The "and," in other words, is very important.



> By the way, does anyone know if there is a parallel term to "ictus" to
> describe
> the formally Unstressed syllable, which is nevertheless sometimes actually
> stressed, like the "too" in "And summer's lease hath all too short a 
> date"?

I would give the syllables in that line (approximately) the following 
weight, respectively: 1 10 1 10 1 9 8 9 1 9, keeping "too" iambic.

> It's awkward to have no shorter expression for "non-accented syllable".

Did anyone come up with one?

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 21 09:21:26 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:21:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <00b801c51817$a22c64e0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<4219A3C7.23917.5A8168@localhost>
Message-ID: <02a301c51820$a157e7c0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 21 Feb 2005 at 13:27, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote:
>> Re: Kent, about Ashbery (quoted at end) - Oh, this is too much for an
>> email! I'll think about this (and Ashbery) for a long time and perhaps
>> make a considered response in an essay one day. One thing off the top
>> of my head: first, that in moving away from meter I also meant moving
>> away from Anything that Could be scanned.<
>
> Right, so why not just call it prose and be done with it?

I can understand not thinking it poetry but I can't understand thinking it 
prose.

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb 21 09:32:16 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:32:16 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] H.S. Thompson
Message-ID: <00c601c51822$24833360$2daf3852@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Shotgun Golf with Bill Murray
by Hunter S. Thompson
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=thompson/050216



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Mon Feb 21 09:56:20 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:56:20 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <029a01c51820$55a7af40$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <s2172019.067@mail.highland.edu><e8b111d7050219154672aeb505@mail.gmail.com><1108987295.4219cd9ff2dac@webmail.ukonline.net><00b801c51817$a22c64e0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1108992477.4219e1dd71558@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<029a01c51820$55a7af40$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net>




Quoting Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>:

 > It's awkward to have no shorter expression for "non-accented syllable".
> 
> Did anyone come up with one?
> 
> --Bob G. 


Sadly not. But I remain optimistic - there has to be such a word, even if we 
have to mis-appropriate it from the classical pedants.  

----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net


From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Feb 21 10:27:06 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:27:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] test
Message-ID: <731bb17a0502210727194b4d09@mail.gmail.com>

test


From Thom424 at aol.com  Mon Feb 21 10:44:27 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:44:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <5b.63def6c5.2f4b5bdb@aol.com>

breve?
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 21 10:49:43 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:49:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A: Thom Gunn bobbles a grounder
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECCKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Q&A: Thom Gunn bobbles a grounder but fires to first just
in time for an out.

Lee Bartlett:  Do you feel your more recent work, say of the
last ten or fifteen years, is somehow more personal than the
earlier poetry?

Thom Gunn:  When I was an undergraduate at Cambridge,
I was the contemporary of a lot of people who would get
very famous in the British theater: Peter Hall, Peter Wood,
John Barton, and others. Almost as soon as they graduated
they started to become very influential, particularly in
Stratford in the production of Shakespeare's heroic theater.
At Cambridge as undergraduates these people were doing
really astonishing performances of Shakespeare, and I'm
sure it was an important influence on me. There I was in the
1950s thinking about heroic action, which is what I was
trying to get to in my first book, *Fighting Terms*. Then I
read Sartre, and I found a way of speaking about heroic
action in terms of Sartrean choice. So I think the two
things in combination have a lot to do with the subject
matter of my first two books. After that, I began to get 
more interested in personal experience, though you have
to remember that when you are young you just don't have
so much personal experience to think about. At that time
you madly want to fall in love so that you'll have some love
poetry to write.

fr. Lee Bartlett, *Talking Poetry: Conversations in the
Workshop with Contemporary Poets*
[Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1987]


Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 21 11:02:11 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:02:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

  
{     > It's awkward to have no shorter expression for "non-accented syllable".
{    > 
{    > Did anyone come up with one?
{    > 
{    > --Bob G. 
{    
{    
{    Sadly not. But I remain optimistic - there has to be such a word, even if we 
{    have to mis-appropriate it from the classical pedants.  

No need to go that far. We could just use "da"--as in da DUM da DUM da DUM.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Feb 21 11:59:55 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:59:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s219bf4f.099@mail.highland.edu>

Name for single unaccented syllable?

We have the pyrrhic for two. 

I suggest "pyr" for one.

Sounds like a subatomic particle.


From duemer at gmail.com  Mon Feb 21 12:25:31 2005
From: duemer at gmail.com (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:25:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s219bf4f.099@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s219bf4f.099@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <e8b111d705022109255e18d032@mail.gmail.com>

How about spelling it "purr"?


On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:59:55 -0600, Kent Johnson
<Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:
> Name for single unaccented syllable?
> 
> We have the pyrrhic for two.
> 
> I suggest "pyr" for one.
> 
> Sounds like a subatomic particle.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


-- 
Joseph Duemer
Professor of Humanities
Clarkson University
[chujoe.net]


From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Feb 21 13:04:10 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:04:10 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <e8b111d705022109255e18d032@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ECOWS03MHltxpGjZRKY000150dd@smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk>

Our cats purr dibrachs, so presumably one of them is a brach
P 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Joseph Duemer
> Sent: 21 February 2005 17:26
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
> 
> How about spelling it "purr"?
> 
> 
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:59:55 -0600, Kent Johnson 
> <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:
> > Name for single unaccented syllable?
> > 
> > We have the pyrrhic for two.
> > 
> > I suggest "pyr" for one.
> > 
> > Sounds like a subatomic particle.
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> --
> Joseph Duemer
> Professor of Humanities
> Clarkson University
> [chujoe.net]
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 




From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Mon Feb 21 15:16:33 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:16:33 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050221140704.032d3798@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 10:02 AM 2/21/2005, Halvard Johnson wrote:
<<No need to go that far. We could just use "da"--as in da DUM da DUM da DUM.>>

"Da" might be confused with something the thunder said. Or an elder Irishman.

Why not "lax" -- For example, "Notice how the lax point between this ionic 
foot and that dactyl seems almost to be squeezed between two massive 
metrical gates."

g



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Feb 21 15:51:17 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:51:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery & Darger
Message-ID: <ea.6395804f.2f4ba3c5@aol.com>

speaking John Ashbery and movies...has anyone seen
In the Realms of the Unreal, about Henry Darger and the 
world he created. 
http://www.realmsoftheunreal.com/
Here's a Darger site...
http://www.acer-access.com/~darger at acer-access.com/

Ashbery did a long poem based on the Darger drawings 
and acounts of the struggles of the Vivian Girls. 
Here are a few reviews...
http://jacketmagazine.com/08/gand-r-ashb.html

http://www.webdelsol.com/Perihelion/p-practice5.htm

http://www.alsopreview.com/columns/books/rsashbery.html

Finnegan
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb 21 17:16:55 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:16:55 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery & Darger
References: <ea.6395804f.2f4ba3c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004e01c51863$0e047810$e7ec3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Thank you, most impressed/saddened by the life and work of Henry Darger whom I did not know. I read all the links, the two last ones are by the same author, and not too interesting. Gander is a powerful writer, he has the words in his grip. - and watched the trailers and the little art available, but most wonderful. I was wondering, seen the conditions of his past life, if those girls with a penis are not the part of him who is his sister. Maybe we have to go through daily routines to detach ourselves from our dear, idealization - or inexpressed love is, could be too painful, exactly the way John Donne depicted it. As a coincidence, today's PoemHunter dropped into my inbox the poem mentioned in one of these sites, here it is:

No man is an island 

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. 

If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of they friends`s or of thine own were. 

Any man`s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. 

John Donne 


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:51 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery & Darger


  speaking John Ashbery and movies...has anyone seen
  In the Realms of the Unreal, about Henry Darger and the 
  world he created. 
  http://www.realmsoftheunreal.com/
  Here's a Darger site...
  http://www.acer-access.com/~darger at acer-access.com/

  Ashbery did a long poem based on the Darger drawings 
  and acounts of the struggles of the Vivian Girls. 
  Here are a few reviews...
  http://jacketmagazine.com/08/gand-r-ashb.html

  http://www.webdelsol.com/Perihelion/p-practice5.htm

  http://www.alsopreview.com/columns/books/rsashbery.html

  Finnegan 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Feb 21 20:22:28 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:22:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery & Darger (& Duhamel)
In-Reply-To: <ea.6395804f.2f4ba3c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BE3FE574.FBAD%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Denise Duhamel wrote a long piece (and no, I'm not interested in discussing
whether it's poetry or prose)  about Ashbery & Darger.  Well, it's about
other things, too. . . .



Mia and Darger, Ashbery and Gina

When Mia saw my Darger poster, she said, "Oh wow! Look Patrick, Darger,"
and I couldn't believe she knew who he was. I thought I had discovered
him in La Collection de L'Art Brut in Switzerland.
But, of course, I couldn't have really discovered him
since there was already a poster and an expensive French coffee-table book
that I also bought at the Swiss museum and lugged home in my carry-on.
"Ashbery's next book is all about Darger," Mia quipped.
Mia worked at Farrar Straus & Giroux. I had known her for about one minute.
She was visiting because she'd come along with Patrick,
a friend of my husband's. I wished I hadn't cooked Mia pumpkin soup.
For a minute I hated her ? I'd wanted my next book to be about Darger.
Then Patrick said, "Did you see the Darger show
here in New York last year?" And my dream of discovering Darger ?
bringing him back to America like some strange spice ? was over.
My husband was getting everyone drinks. I was frozen, processing,
that I didn't hate Mia or Patrick, mere messengers.

 Who I hated was Ashbery
for having my idea first ? for having the art world connections
to know about Darger, apparently years before I did. I wanted to be the one
to save the Chicago hospital janitor who wrote a 15,145 page novel
discovered only after his death, along with these amazing illustrations
(some of which are shown on my Darger poster) and, according to Mia and
Patrick,
hung in museums around the world. Mia told me Darger wasn't retarded ?
I'd mistranslated the French from my coffee-table book. She explained
he was mentally ill. I felt queasy in that schoolgirl way ? what was I
thinking?
Surely he couldn't have been retarded

                          and written 15,145 cohesive pages.
A few days later Mia sent me a Darger article written in English
and John Ashbery's new book, not the one about Darger
(it wasn't published yet) but the one called Wakefulness.
I wrote a poem called "Sleepyhead," which was probably some weird
aggressive,
anti-Ashbery statement though I didn't know it at the time.
Ashbery was born in the same year as my dad. Ashbery looks
pretty much like my dad. My dad doesn't know who Ashbery is,
or, for that matter, Darger. My father never writes anything down ?
he's only ever sent me one letter in my whole life, a thank you note
after he recovered from his surgery a few years ago.
I was suddenly angry at my dad for not being Ashbery
because then I would have had access to Darger earlier.
Or, if Ashbery were my father, I would have known more clearly,
earlier on, that I would never be crowned King
of the New York School.

                     My friend Tom said, "It's really a blessing
Ashbery got your, well, actually his, idea. It doesn't really sound like
this Darger
guy is your thing." But Darger was exactly my thing ? he drew little girls
with penises, he was obsessed with good and evil, he traced the Coppertone
girl
for one of his drawings. I pierced a shrimp onto my fork
and noticed how much it looked like me when I go into the fetal position
after some disappointment (like this Darger/Ashbery thing).
I had to admit Ashbery got there first. I had to accept it,
just like I had to accept that my friend Nancy was the first
to get a pair of denim clogs with strawberry appliqu?s in eighth grade.
Sure, I could have also bought a pair of the same blue clogs, but everyone
knew
Nancy was the cool one, the fashion genius, the one with the true what's-in
flair.
It's not like I hadn't tried to gather more Darger information, to stay
current.
Since I'd come back from Switzerland, I'd searched Netscape in vain,
tried to call the Darger Foundation in Chicago, which wasn't listed.
The article Mia sent explained the Foundation was called something else.
Anyway here are some of the highlights from my Darger file:


HENRY DARGER (1892-1973)

Mother died when he was young and then, after his father
     fell ill, he was put in an orphanage and separated from his
     sister who was put in another orphanage...
violent storms in his work ? maybe witnesses tornadoes as a kid?
gave his girl children penises (in illustrations only)

His novel is one of a struggle between nations on an
enormous planet of which earth is but a moon

Glandelians ? practice child slavery (evil)

Abbiennia ? good Christian nation

Blengins ? colorful winged monsters that help sisters in their fight

Seven Vivian sisters fight Glandelians to free child slaves

Henry Darger appears as several characters, evil and good, and as
a war correspondent (In real life, H.D. had never been in a war...)

In one story, sisters escape by rolling themselves into carpets
(see plate 1)

the closest thing he comes to sexual in his writing is "the
most delicate part of her legs" describing Little Jennie Anges
(child Martyr) tortured by G's and killed at age six holding
on so tightly to the Eucharist that they can't pry her hands
apart even when they hack away at the rest of her...


Well, you get the picture. I'll probably go back and delete that file,
drag the whole thing to the trash can icon and watch it bloat.
I wonder if I'm up to a Darger biography, if the Darger Foundation
would let me do it. I wonder if TNT would be interested in a mini-series
starring Nicholas Cage as Darger. But if Ashbery's already written the
poems,
I'm sure someone else has already thought of these projects.
And then there's that whole thing about appropriation,
which I've gotten into trouble with before.

                          Did you hear about that guy
Tony Kaye who directed (but now hates) American History X
because he says it was all chopped up in the editing room?
Well, before he directed this film, he exhibited a homeless man
in London's Tate Gallery. The man wore a sign around his neck
that read "BY TONY KAYE" I mean, believe me, I know it's grotesque
on a human level ? I'm not disputing that. But I thought it was
kind of an interesting idea ? how artists take the suffering of others
(Darger, our friends, people we pass on the street)
and try to make it art.

                I always wondered which part
of the body decomposed fastest until Gina told me last week, "The tongue
is the first thing to go." I had been explaining to her about teeth
and how they last even longer than bones. Gina's telling me
about the tongue made me really sad, though this sadness
seemed to have nothing to do with Gina's dead husband
or her little girl who looked like one of the Vivian sisters
in Darger's illustrations. She kept stooping to write her name Natasia
with a stick in the sand on the horse path in Central Park
as Nick walked ahead with our other friends Lara and Eric.
The rollerbladers zoomed in circles to disco music.
The actor Kevin Bacon held his child up on his shoulder
and his wife Kyra Sedgewick seemed to smile at us, especially at Natasia.
All I could think about was Darger ?
not about his compulsive tracing of little girls,
not about Kevin Bacon playing him in a full-length movie,
not about how, if I was bold enough, I could walk up to him right then
and pitch my idea.

              All I could think about was Darger's by-now
decomposed tongue. I was afraid my father would die soon,
because now he needed more surgery. I was afraid he would die,
what with his lack of interest in writing, something I always imagined
could help people live longer. I wished that my father would leave
a 15,145 page novel behind in the garage so that I could discover something
about his life that I hadn't noticed when he was busy working
and being my dad. Gina was in the process of editing
her dead husband's novel. No one knew how to talk to her about it.
She hated when people asked things like, "So how are you doing?"
How did they think she was doing, having just buried such a young husband?
Gina herself looked like a teenager, her daughter's big sister.
My father looked like Ashbery, but maybe a little younger,
maybe like Ashbery's little brother.

                        I showed a picture of my dad
to Mia. "He looks like Ashbery, doesn't he?" I asked.
Mia bit into a sweet wiry piece of baklava and nodded.
Later she said she was thinking about doing an anthology all about science.
I didn't want to tell her, but I had to mention Verse & Universe,
edited by Kurt Brown, just out with Milkweed.
Her face fell just like mine did when she told me
about Ashbery and Darger.

                    "Maybe you can still do a book, I mean,
Ashbery's not directly writing about Darger..." Mia had said,
trying to cheer me up.

                    "Maybe you can still do an anthology Mia..."
I was saying now. "Maybe you could just focus on technology
or math or physics."

                And I really felt bad for Mia, for not getting her idea
in time. I really felt bad for Darger, for Natasia, and especially for Gina,
who I hope doesn't accuse me of being a Tony Kaye for putting her
and her daughter in this poem. I said something not very articulate to Mia
about the effects of suffering being pointless without religion or art.
Patrick and my husband looked up from their coffee cups,
and at the same time both said, "What are you two talking about?"


Denise Duhamel
Queen for a Day: Selected and New Poems
University of Pittsburgh Press
===========================================
on 2/21/05 2:51 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

speaking John Ashbery and movies...has anyone seen
In the Realms of the Unreal, about Henry Darger and the
world he created. 
http://www.realmsoftheunreal.com/
Here's a Darger site...
http://www.acer-access.com/~darger at acer-access.com/

Ashbery did a long poem based on the Darger drawings
and acounts of the struggles of the Vivian Girls.
Here are a few reviews...
http://jacketmagazine.com/08/gand-r-ashb.html

http://www.webdelsol.com/Perihelion/p-practice5.htm

http://www.alsopreview.com/columns/books/rsashbery.html

Finnegan 

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From debra at debradicembre.com  Mon Feb 21 20:36:15 2005
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:36:15 +1100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery & Darger (& Duhamel)
References: <BE3FE574.FBAD%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <002b01c5187e$e7e35b30$0301010a@galaxy>

Ashbery & Darger (& Duhamel)Enjoyable, thanks for that.

DD
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:22 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery & Darger (& Duhamel)


  Denise Duhamel wrote a long piece (and no, I'm not interested in discussing whether it's poetry or prose)  about Ashbery & Darger.  Well, it's about other things, too. . . .



  Mia and Darger, Ashbery and Gina

  When Mia saw my Darger poster, she said, "Oh wow! Look Patrick, Darger,"
  and I couldn't believe she knew who he was. I thought I had discovered
  him in La Collection de L'Art Brut in Switzerland.
  But, of course, I couldn't have really discovered him
  since there was already a poster and an expensive French coffee-table book
  that I also bought at the Swiss museum and lugged home in my carry-on.
  "Ashbery's next book is all about Darger," Mia quipped.
  Mia worked at Farrar Straus & Giroux. I had known her for about one minute.
  She was visiting because she'd come along with Patrick,
  a friend of my husband's. I wished I hadn't cooked Mia pumpkin soup.
  For a minute I hated her ? I'd wanted my next book to be about Darger.
  Then Patrick said, "Did you see the Darger show
  here in New York last year?" And my dream of discovering Darger ?
  bringing him back to America like some strange spice ? was over.
  My husband was getting everyone drinks. I was frozen, processing,
  that I didn't hate Mia or Patrick, mere messengers.

   Who I hated was Ashbery
  for having my idea first ? for having the art world connections
  to know about Darger, apparently years before I did. I wanted to be the one
  to save the Chicago hospital janitor who wrote a 15,145 page novel
  discovered only after his death, along with these amazing illustrations
  (some of which are shown on my Darger poster) and, according to Mia and Patrick,
  hung in museums around the world. Mia told me Darger wasn't retarded ?
  I'd mistranslated the French from my coffee-table book. She explained
  he was mentally ill. I felt queasy in that schoolgirl way ? what was I thinking?
  Surely he couldn't have been retarded

                           and written 15,145 cohesive pages.
  A few days later Mia sent me a Darger article written in English
  and John Ashbery's new book, not the one about Darger
  (it wasn't published yet) but the one called Wakefulness.
  I wrote a poem called "Sleepyhead," which was probably some weird aggressive,
  anti-Ashbery statement though I didn't know it at the time.
  Ashbery was born in the same year as my dad. Ashbery looks
  pretty much like my dad. My dad doesn't know who Ashbery is,
  or, for that matter, Darger. My father never writes anything down ?
  he's only ever sent me one letter in my whole life, a thank you note
  after he recovered from his surgery a few years ago.
  I was suddenly angry at my dad for not being Ashbery
  because then I would have had access to Darger earlier.
  Or, if Ashbery were my father, I would have known more clearly,
  earlier on, that I would never be crowned King
  of the New York School.

                       My friend Tom said, "It's really a blessing
  Ashbery got your, well, actually his, idea. It doesn't really sound like this Darger
  guy is your thing." But Darger was exactly my thing ? he drew little girls
  with penises, he was obsessed with good and evil, he traced the Coppertone girl
  for one of his drawings. I pierced a shrimp onto my fork
  and noticed how much it looked like me when I go into the fetal position
  after some disappointment (like this Darger/Ashbery thing).
  I had to admit Ashbery got there first. I had to accept it,
  just like I had to accept that my friend Nancy was the first
  to get a pair of denim clogs with strawberry appliqu?s in eighth grade.
  Sure, I could have also bought a pair of the same blue clogs, but everyone knew
  Nancy was the cool one, the fashion genius, the one with the true what's-in flair.
  It's not like I hadn't tried to gather more Darger information, to stay current.
  Since I'd come back from Switzerland, I'd searched Netscape in vain,
  tried to call the Darger Foundation in Chicago, which wasn't listed.
  The article Mia sent explained the Foundation was called something else.
  Anyway here are some of the highlights from my Darger file:


  HENRY DARGER (1892-1973) 

  Mother died when he was young and then, after his father
       fell ill, he was put in an orphanage and separated from his
       sister who was put in another orphanage...
  violent storms in his work ? maybe witnesses tornadoes as a kid?
  gave his girl children penises (in illustrations only)

  His novel is one of a struggle between nations on an
  enormous planet of which earth is but a moon

  Glandelians ? practice child slavery (evil)

  Abbiennia ? good Christian nation

  Blengins ? colorful winged monsters that help sisters in their fight

  Seven Vivian sisters fight Glandelians to free child slaves

  Henry Darger appears as several characters, evil and good, and as
  a war correspondent (In real life, H.D. had never been in a war...)

  In one story, sisters escape by rolling themselves into carpets
  (see plate 1)

  the closest thing he comes to sexual in his writing is "the
  most delicate part of her legs" describing Little Jennie Anges
  (child Martyr) tortured by G's and killed at age six holding
  on so tightly to the Eucharist that they can't pry her hands
  apart even when they hack away at the rest of her...


  Well, you get the picture. I'll probably go back and delete that file,
  drag the whole thing to the trash can icon and watch it bloat.
  I wonder if I'm up to a Darger biography, if the Darger Foundation
  would let me do it. I wonder if TNT would be interested in a mini-series
  starring Nicholas Cage as Darger. But if Ashbery's already written the poems,
  I'm sure someone else has already thought of these projects.
  And then there's that whole thing about appropriation,
  which I've gotten into trouble with before.

                            Did you hear about that guy
  Tony Kaye who directed (but now hates) American History X
  because he says it was all chopped up in the editing room?
  Well, before he directed this film, he exhibited a homeless man
  in London's Tate Gallery. The man wore a sign around his neck
  that read "BY TONY KAYE" I mean, believe me, I know it's grotesque
  on a human level ? I'm not disputing that. But I thought it was
  kind of an interesting idea ? how artists take the suffering of others
  (Darger, our friends, people we pass on the street)
  and try to make it art.

                  I always wondered which part
  of the body decomposed fastest until Gina told me last week, "The tongue
  is the first thing to go." I had been explaining to her about teeth
  and how they last even longer than bones. Gina's telling me
  about the tongue made me really sad, though this sadness
  seemed to have nothing to do with Gina's dead husband
  or her little girl who looked like one of the Vivian sisters
  in Darger's illustrations. She kept stooping to write her name Natasia
  with a stick in the sand on the horse path in Central Park
  as Nick walked ahead with our other friends Lara and Eric.
  The rollerbladers zoomed in circles to disco music.
  The actor Kevin Bacon held his child up on his shoulder
  and his wife Kyra Sedgewick seemed to smile at us, especially at Natasia.
  All I could think about was Darger ?
  not about his compulsive tracing of little girls,
  not about Kevin Bacon playing him in a full-length movie,
  not about how, if I was bold enough, I could walk up to him right then
  and pitch my idea.

                All I could think about was Darger's by-now
  decomposed tongue. I was afraid my father would die soon,
  because now he needed more surgery. I was afraid he would die,
  what with his lack of interest in writing, something I always imagined
  could help people live longer. I wished that my father would leave
  a 15,145 page novel behind in the garage so that I could discover something
  about his life that I hadn't noticed when he was busy working
  and being my dad. Gina was in the process of editing
  her dead husband's novel. No one knew how to talk to her about it.
  She hated when people asked things like, "So how are you doing?"
  How did they think she was doing, having just buried such a young husband?
  Gina herself looked like a teenager, her daughter's big sister.
  My father looked like Ashbery, but maybe a little younger,
  maybe like Ashbery's little brother.

                          I showed a picture of my dad
  to Mia. "He looks like Ashbery, doesn't he?" I asked.
  Mia bit into a sweet wiry piece of baklava and nodded.
  Later she said she was thinking about doing an anthology all about science.
  I didn't want to tell her, but I had to mention Verse & Universe,
  edited by Kurt Brown, just out with Milkweed.
  Her face fell just like mine did when she told me
  about Ashbery and Darger.

                      "Maybe you can still do a book, I mean,
  Ashbery's not directly writing about Darger..." Mia had said,
  trying to cheer me up.

                      "Maybe you can still do an anthology Mia..."
  I was saying now. "Maybe you could just focus on technology
  or math or physics."

                  And I really felt bad for Mia, for not getting her idea
  in time. I really felt bad for Darger, for Natasia, and especially for Gina,
  who I hope doesn't accuse me of being a Tony Kaye for putting her
  and her daughter in this poem. I said something not very articulate to Mia
  about the effects of suffering being pointless without religion or art.
  Patrick and my husband looked up from their coffee cups,
  and at the same time both said, "What are you two talking about?"


  Denise Duhamel
  Queen for a Day: Selected and New Poems
  University of Pittsburgh Press
  ===========================================
  on 2/21/05 2:51 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:


    speaking John Ashbery and movies...has anyone seen
    In the Realms of the Unreal, about Henry Darger and the 
    world he created. 
    http://www.realmsoftheunreal.com/
    Here's a Darger site...
    http://www.acer-access.com/~darger at acer-access.com/

    Ashbery did a long poem based on the Darger drawings 
    and acounts of the struggles of the Vivian Girls. 
    Here are a few reviews...
    http://jacketmagazine.com/08/gand-r-ashb.html

    http://www.webdelsol.com/Perihelion/p-practice5.htm

    http://www.alsopreview.com/columns/books/rsashbery.html

    Finnegan 


  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb 22 08:40:25 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:40:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Poetry Readings Spring 2005  More to come.
Message-ID: <b8.6cb8e420.2f4c9049@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/21/2005 7:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
GrolierPoetry at cs.com writes:

> Subj: Fwd: Grolier Poetry Readings Spring 2005 More to come. 
>  Date: 2/21/2005 7:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time
>  From: GrolierPoetry at cs.com
> 
> In a message dated 2/21/05 6:54:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, GrolierPoetry 
> writes:
> 
> <<arch 4, Friday, 8PM  EMMANUEL MOSES reads from his first published, 
> translated collection in this country, Last News of Mr. Nobody, Selected Poems
> (Other Press).  Moses born in Casablanca, spent his early childhood in 
> France, lived in Israel from the ages of ten to eighteen, and then returned to 
> Paris.  He is the author of four collections of poetry and two novels, as well 
> as a translator of contemporary Hebrew poetry.  Moses will read from his 
> French originals; Marilyn Hacker from the translations.
> MARILYN H ACKER's most recent work is Desesperanto: Poems 1999-2002. Among
> her other volumes are Winter Numbers (which won the Lenore Marshall Poetry 
> Prize and a Lambda Literary Award);Going Back to the River  for which she 
> received a Lambda Literary Award; and Presentation Piece which was selected for 
> the Lamont Poetry award and for the National Book Award..  She was editor of 
> The Kenyon Review from 1990 to 1994.
> 
> March 11, Friday, 8PM  JOHN PECK reads frrom his ninth collection of poetry, 
> Red
> Strawberry Leaf: Selected Poems 1994-2001.  He teaches writing, is a 
> freelance writer and editor, a Jungian analyst, and a translator.  He has been a 
> fellow of the American Academy in Rome since 1979.  His work was awarded the  
> first annual Thomas McGrath Prize in Poetry.
> 
> March 18, Friday, 8PM  COLA FRANZEN reads her translation of  the Poems of 
> Andalusia.  These poems originating from the 10th through 13th century 
> civilization in Andalusia have had an enormous impact on various writers:  among 
> them are Frederico Garcia Lorca and, on a lighter note, Leonard Cohen. To date, 
> twenty-one volumes of Franzen's translations have been published.  She 
> received the 2000 Harvard Morton Landon prize for Horses in the Air and other poems 
> by Jorge Guillen and the 2004 Gregory Kolovakos Award from PEN America.
> 
> Other March events will be listed later.  All readings are at Adams House, 
> Entry C,
> 26 Plympton Street (same side as the Grolier), Harvard Square.  Wheelchair 
> accessible.  Students with i.d. no charge; others $3.00
>  >>
> 
> 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Feb 22 09:08:56 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:08:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net><KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050221140704.032d3798@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

My entry for "unstressed syllable in a meteric foot": "nyllable"--from "nil" 
and "syllable."

--Bob G. 




From Thom424 at aol.com  Tue Feb 22 09:23:08 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:23:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <59.21d8c561.2f4c9a4c@aol.com>

if you're going to use "ictus," why bother inventing a new term for an 
unstressed syllable since one already exists: "breve," that bowl-like mark used in 
scansion to indicate a short or unstressed syllable of verse?

thom tammaro
moorhed, mn
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 22 10:09:57 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:09:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Mary Rising Higgins,
	from "Rotations of N"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEEIKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


from "Rotations of N"




             						...the unity of the urge
       							to exalt opposites.
	      							 Giulia Niccolai


day bridge event phase you try telling
	momenta spree   high velum knell  
	    tongue beam ring song 
a common center of gravity links once   ,twice


							     February snow carbon dusk rose or 
 					     high speed March brown dust ocean mouth swarm


	atrium ridge     red plane tips
	  flag bound face mask hum
	   sonant n bends sheering 


	sun moon system lens     water recasts midair
		difference by long surface wave

     					where poems on you dash in half squared

				amount patterns a width of en
						out of em squared to which en belongs




II



    Tuesday morning yellow fog dust
girdles the foothills     stop opening
      your lips to taste rain     


							  How much can paper in the headlamps
   				      	 	  Comment your country.



exit  :  entrance
	   held motion moves
		to survive into growth
        not yet green struggles from
	      inside real time's maculate center

												

	
where the sun appears
		      borderline limb for
	  real time on the outside
		pell-mell circle trap     teeth cord perpendiculars
							          vent wheels adjust

			at what point are we ever the same


--Mary Rising Higgins

in *Poethia* #6, June 2002
http://www.burningpress.org/va/poethia/poethia_single06.html




Hal      

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 22 10:40:56 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:40:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050221140704.032d3798@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <7641070.1109086856307.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 09:12AM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

>My entry for "unstressed syllable in a meteric foot": "nyllable"--from "nil" 
>and "syllable."
>
>--Bob G. 
>
>

Jeez, folks, it's not that hard. In English accentual-syllabic verse a foot is one (when headless or tailless), two, or three syllables, and the kind of foot is determined by the number and location of the relatively stressed syllables within that foot. When you've said "anapest" you've said that the third syllable carries relatively more stress than the first two, and it doesn't matter which of them, if either, carries more stress when spoken. There's no need for a special name for them.

Doubtful cases are determined mostly by the prevailing meter ("Break, break, break" is either accentual three stress or a molossus, and since the rest of the poem varies the number of stresses from 3 to 4 and regularly alternates stressed and unstressed syllables, I say molossus -- but I wouldn't fight over it), which is one reason why using lots of inversions and substitutions makes accentual-syllabic meters unstable. When they _are_ stable, things like headless iambs at the beginnings of lines and feminine endings for iambic lines aren't a problem at all.

The very common rhythm / - / - / - / you can call headless iambic or tailless trochaic (or the classical acephalous and catalectic) as you please. Everyone will know what you mean.

When you're _working_ in accentual syllabic meters, if you're thinking "It's time for an inverted foot," you're lost. Listening is much more important than counting.

And Sam's absolutely right about reading accentual-syllablc lines as if they were prose. If they're well-done, the meter will take care of itself. Meter shouldn't overwhelm normal prose rhythms (except in some comic verse), nor should the meter be hidden so well it's imperceptible.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Tue Feb 22 10:45:18 2005
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:45:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <59.21d8c561.2f4c9a4c@aol.com>
References: <59.21d8c561.2f4c9a4c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <93417995bbeb6b5937426afb7ca17502@conncoll.edu>

I thought an unstressed syllable was called a slack.  Isn't that common 
usage?

Wendy

Wendy Battin        wjbat at conncoll.edu
http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html

"One is left strangely dumb, and talking about the past is like a cat's 
trying to explain climbing down a ladder."
				--Robert Lowell, letter to E.B.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Feb 22 11:05:27 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:05:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <59.21d8c561.2f4c9a4c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01b201c518f8$5332a070$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

if you're going to use "ictus," why bother inventing a new term for an unstressed syllable since one already exists: "breve," that bowl-like mark used in scansion to indicate a short or unstressed syllable of verse?

thom tammaro

The problem was we didn't know that, Thom.  Also, the breve is a mark, not the syllable itself, yes?  

I'd never heard of the "slack," either--which Wendy has informed us of.

Actually, I wouldn't mind someone's inventing a term for "ictus" that would be self-describing.

--Bob G.
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 22 11:32:57 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:32:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <7641070.1109086856307.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <421B1869.18956.9873F4@localhost>

On 22 Feb 2005 at 10:40, Mike Snider wrote:
> Jeez, folks, it's not that hard. In English accentual-syllabic verse a
> foot is one (when headless or tailless), two, or three syllables, and
> the kind of foot is determined by the number and location of the
> relatively stressed syllables within that foot. When you've said
> "anapest" you've said that the third syllable carries relatively more
> stress than the first two, and it doesn't matter which of them, if
> either, carries more stress when spoken. There's no need for a special
> name for them.<

So far so good, but what do you call those syllables such as "just" 
or "quite" or the like that are used to eke out the meter -- words 
that are there only as neutral placeholders? I've long called them 
'eke words'.

Marcus




From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 22 11:45:14 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:45:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <421B1869.18956.9873F4@localhost>
References: <014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<421B1869.18956.9873F4@localhost>
Message-ID: <7450412.1109090714582.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 11:34AM, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

>On 22 Feb 2005 at 10:40, Mike Snider wrote:
>> Jeez, folks, it's not that hard. In English accentual-syllabic verse a
>> foot is one (when headless or tailless), two, or three syllables, and
>> the kind of foot is determined by the number and location of the
>> relatively stressed syllables within that foot. When you've said
>> "anapest" you've said that the third syllable carries relatively more
>> stress than the first two, and it doesn't matter which of them, if
>> either, carries more stress when spoken. There's no need for a special
>> name for them.<
>
>So far so good, but what do you call those syllables such as "just" 
>or "quite" or the like that are used to eke out the meter -- words 
>that are there only as neutral placeholders? I've long called them 
>'eke words'.
>
>Marcus

If all they do is hold a place in the meter, then "eke!" indeed -- but they can also help create an imitation of real speech. "Imitation" rather than "transcription" is important. Much free verse creates its rhythms by eliding the connective tissue of speech or by using line breaks to cut up speech, but accentual-syllabic poetry ought to play across natural speech rhythms. Another reason for reading it "naturally," and, and, since natural speech rhythms change with time and dialect, another reason why skillfully handled meter can sound perpetually fresh.

Mikes S

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 22 11:50:23 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:50:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s21b0e8b.000@mail.highland.edu>

Mike Snider said:

>In English accentual-syllabic verse a foot is one (when headless or
tailless), two, or three syllables, and the kind of foot is determined
by the number and location of the relatively stressed syllables within
that foot. 

As I've proposed previously, it's this headless/tailess stuff
(anacrusis/catalexis, along with the vagaries of rhetorical and
"secondary" stress) that renders suspect the architecture of the whole
edifice. What traditional formalists would have as empirically
objective, verifiable criteria is more or less a ghost dance inside a
language game.

Which doesn't mean it's not fun or worthwhile to dance inside that
game, from time to time. But to assert that meter is the cornerstone
foundation of Poetry is analogous to asserting that the Mountain god
decreed in the beginning that the Earth circle the Sun.




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 22 12:05:54 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:05:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <7450412.1109090714582.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <421B1869.18956.9873F4@localhost>
Message-ID: <421B2022.19600.B69FAD@localhost>

Mike Snider wrote:
> >> Jeez, folks, it's not that hard. In English accentual-syllabic
> >> verse a foot is one (when headless or tailless), two, or three
> >> syllables, and the kind of foot is determined by the number and
> >> location of the relatively stressed syllables within that foot.
> >> When you've said "anapest" you've said that the third syllable
> >> carries relatively more stress than the first two, and it doesn't
> >> matter which of them, if either, carries more stress when spoken.
> >> There's no need for a special name for them.<

Marcus Bales wrote:
> >So far so good, but what do you call those syllables such as "just"
> >or "quite" or the like that are used to eke out the meter -- words
> >that are there only as neutral placeholders? I've long called them
> >'eke words'.

On 22 Feb 2005 at 11:45, Mike Snider wrote:
> If all they do is hold a place in the meter, then "eke!" indeed -- but
> they can also help create an imitation of real speech. "Imitation"
> rather than "transcription" is important.<

Well, that's what I'm talking about: those words which just sound 
quite out of place just because they're quite obviously just holding 
a place in the meter, quite. 

As for imitating speech, as opposed to transcription, why not use 
"um" and "er" and "like" and "uh" as place holders instead of "just" 
and "quite" and the like? Because those are too obviously 
placeholders only, and "just" and "quite" have actual real 
denotations and connotations beyond place-holding, and are not only 
place-holders in the meter but often place-holders in the meaning, 
too; that is to say, they are bullshit words: they sort of could 
intensify or moderate the meaning of the words around them, but those 
words don't need the help, and the "justs" and "quites" also hold a 
place in the meter. It's an attempt to bullshit the reader into 
thinking the writer is more skillful at handling meter than he or she 
really is, by pretending that _just_ here or there it is _quite_ 
necessary to say "just" or "quite", and hey! isn't it convenient that 
those words fit in the meter? 

Marcus





From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Feb 22 12:18:24 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:18:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Persuasion
Message-ID: <731bb17a0502220918ea5ee20@mail.gmail.com>

I wanted to thank everybody publicly who helped me a while back with
my poetry and persuasion class.

We talked about Mary Jo Salter's "Welcome to Hiroshima" today, and the
students really got into it.  They saw the ironic argument that the
poem is making about the corruption and mutation of Japanese culture
by western influence.  I used the handout Bill Morgan sent to me
backchannel, and I've been using the book that David Graham
recommended, Carl Dennis's *Poetry as Perusasion.*

So, thanks everyone.

Jeff N.



-- 
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz


From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 22 12:20:00 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:20:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s21b0e8b.000@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21b0e8b.000@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <5292265.1109092800330.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 11:52AM, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

>Mike Snider said:
>
>>In English accentual-syllabic verse a foot is one (when headless or
>tailless), two, or three syllables, and the kind of foot is determined
>by the number and location of the relatively stressed syllables within
>that foot. 
>
>As I've proposed previously, it's this headless/tailess stuff
>(anacrusis/catalexis, along with the vagaries of rhetorical and
>"secondary" stress) that renders suspect the architecture of the whole
>edifice. What traditional formalists would have as empirically
>objective, verifiable criteria is more or less a ghost dance inside a
>language game.
>
>Which doesn't mean it's not fun or worthwhile to dance inside that
>game, from time to time. But to assert that meter is the cornerstone
>foundation of Poetry is analogous to asserting that the Mountain god
>decreed in the beginning that the Earth circle the Sun.
>
>

To say that any _particular_ meter is the cornerstone of poetry is indeed silly. But Marcus is quite right to say that poetry without _some_ meter is a very recent phenomenon -- even the  KJV psalms were understood to be translations of song and poetry, not the Hebrew poetry itself. (Any text can be sung to a sufficiently complex melody -- try the Gettysburgh address to Greensleeves, or all of Emily Dickinson to The Yellow Rose of Texas)

Kent, the existence of anacrusis and catalexis don't matter because meter is not a matter of single feet or even (usually) single lines. Meter is a feature of a poem.  Even in a heterometrical poem like "Break, Break, Break," there's no mistaking its generally anapestic feel -- which givesthat repeated three-syllable line much of its power. Just as juxtoposed colors in a painting can radically change our perception of the color, it's the metrical context, not the scansion of a particular string of syllables, that affects our reading.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Feb 22 12:33:39 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:33:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <1c4.2368ab06.2f4cc6f3@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/22/2005 10:52:23 AM Central Standard Time, 
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: 
> 
> >In English accentual-syllabic verse a foot is one (when headless or
> tailless), two, or three syllables, and the kind of foot is determined
> by the number and location of the relatively stressed syllables within
> that foot. 
> 
> As I've proposed previously, it's this headless/tailess stuff
> (anacrusis/catalexis, along with the vagaries of rhetorical and
> "secondary" stress) that renders suspect the architecture of the whole
> edifice. What traditional formalists would have as empirically
> objective, verifiable criteria is more or less a ghost dance inside a
> language game.
> 
> Which doesn't mean it's not fun or worthwhile to dance inside that
> game, from time to time. But to assert that meter is the cornerstone
> foundation of Poetry is analogous to asserting that the Mountain god
> decreed in the beginning that the Earth circle the Sun.
> 
> 
No one has ever ascertained it for sure, but many do speculate that in the 
earliest times there was only one art form, one which combined chanted language, 
musical accompaniment, and dance--like the dithyrambic poetry of the Greeks.
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From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 22 12:33:57 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:33:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s21b0e8b.000@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21b0e8b.000@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <7652069.1109093637557.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 11:52AM, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

What traditional formalists would have as empirically
>objective, verifiable criteria 


Kent, I don't know anyone who would claim this. It's a straw man. "Iambic pentameter" is a normative line in a certain kind of poem, a metrical context, not a Platonic form or a clinical description -- not even a recipe.


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From tad at opus40.org  Tue Feb 22 12:55:35 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aesthetics By Others
References: <BE3FE574.FBAD%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <001001c51907$b851a0f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Ashbery & Darger (& Duhamel) "If you can't tap your feet, something's wrong." 

--Illinois Jacquet



Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 22 12:57:18 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:57:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s21b1e2e.074@mail.highland.edu>

Mike, 

Could you send a copy of Break Break Break to he list?

thanks.

Kent


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 22 13:04:13 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:04:13 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s21b0e8b.000@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <01a801c51908$eb126050$04042cd9@Robin>

From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>

> As I've proposed previously, it's this headless/tailess stuff
> (anacrusis/catalexis, along with the vagaries of rhetorical and
> "secondary" stress)

Dear god in hell, I thought I'd encountered just about every idiocy it was
possible to trip over when it came to metrics, but this ...

        ... could someone *please* explain to me exactly +what+ "rhetorical
stress" is?

    {Actually, I rather like the term -- reminds me of the butterfly's wing
flipping a tsunami.}

        But heavens to betsy, this has to be about the extreme of a
semantically null term.

                            :-(

Robin




From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Tue Feb 22 13:09:51 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:09:51 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <5292265.1109092800330.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <s21b0e8b.000@mail.highland.edu>
	<5292265.1109092800330.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1109095791.421b756f63749@webmail.ukonline.net>

"Breve" is indeed the name for the mark that looks like a little cup - its 
converse is "macron".

Thus it is not the converse of "ictus", though it might be a candidate for 
adoption into that role.  

I agree with Bob - "ictus" itself is far from ideal, it would be better to 
have something more self-explanatory.  

Considering the enormous sum of human effort and interest that has been 
invested in accentual-syllabic meter over the last five centuries, I can't 
help thinking it's rather remarkable that what would seem to be basic 
technical terms are simply missing. It also seems remarkable, given the huge 
academic literature industry, that something as old as Saintsbury (effectively 
pre-dating the existence of university English) is the nearest thing we have 
to an authority. And the age-old habit of borrowing terms that truly relate to 
quantitative measure is fraught with confusion - apart from anything else, it 
acts as a practical barrier against even thinking about syllabic quantities in 
accentual verse, since everything you tried to say would become instantly 
emmeshed in total ambiguity.

There's something in this enormous conspiracy of incompetence that I just 
don't understand. Perhaps Kent is right - metrical descriptions are incoherent 
at the core? But even if that were true, the same argument would surely apply 
to quantitative measure and yet that didn't stop the Latin commentators 
constructing a formidable battery of distinct and agreed terminology. What it 
perhaps reflects is an anglo-saxon literary habit of avoiding at all 
costs clear analysis, logic and subjection to the test of falsifiability - all 
for excellent reasons, of course - but still, meter would seem to be a topic 
where clarity ought to be rather simply achievable. 

As for the "child's easy world history of poetic forms", a book I've often 
thought I'd quite enjoy reading, I guess that it's a figment of my imagination.
 



----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net


From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 22 13:19:00 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:19:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <s21b1e2e.074@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21b1e2e.074@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <15122045.1109096340536.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 12:58PM, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

>Mike, 
>
>Could you send a copy of Break Break Break to he list?
>
>thanks.
>
>Kent


Sure -- Tennyson's copyright ran out long ago:

Brea, Break, Break


Break, break, break,
  On thy cold gray stones, O Sea!
And I would that my tongue could utter
  The thoughts that arise in me.

O, well for the fisherman's boy,
  That he shouts with his sister at play!
O, well for the sailor lad,
  That he sings in his boat on the bay!

And the stately ships go on
  To their haven under the hill;
But O for the touch of a vanished hand,
  And the sound of a voice that is still!

Break, break, break,
  At the foot of thy crags, O Sea!
But the tender grace of a day that is dead
  Will never come back to me.




3 beats/line, except 11 and 15, which are tet. Other than the repetend, most lines are a mixture of anapest and iamb, and one line has a feminine ending -- not, in this context, mistakable for a trochee. I'm not spondicidal, but I draw the line at amphibrachs. 

BTW, Kent -- I think I'll be at your Desert City reading in Chapel Hill next month.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 22 13:24:42 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:24:42 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Western culturally literate poets
Message-ID: <s21b24b9.003@mail.highland.edu>

Jeff Newberry said,

>We talked about Mary Jo Salter's "Welcome to Hiroshima" today, and
the
students really got into it.  They saw the ironic argument that the
poem is making about the corruption and mutation of Japanese culture
by western influence.<

Not knowing this poem, I could be misunderstanding what you mean by
"ironic argument." Do you mean that Salter, as a westerner, is
critiquing the "corruption and mutation of Japanese culture by western
influence"? That would be the most delicious irony of all... I trust she
is somewhat self-reflexive about it. 

I suppose the same thing is happening with culture in Brazil.
Curiously, I see from the new Norton that she and co-editors think Rio
de Janeiro is the capital of that nation... 


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 22 13:40:18 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:40:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s21b284d.016@mail.highland.edu>

>Dear god in hell, I thought I'd encountered just about every idiocy it
was
possible to trip over when it came to metrics, but this ... could
someone *please* explain to me exactly +what+ "rhetorical stress" is?<

Nothing too complicated, Robin. And no need to get so excited. We are
talking about prosody, remember. Everything will be OK in the end.

I simply mean the different emphases different readers can give a line.
This is why, after all, different readers most often disagree on the
"correct" scansion of a verse. Throw in a few "missing" tails and heads,
and you can come up with all sorts of fun feet.

    


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 22 13:43:21 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:43:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s21b2903.022@mail.highland.edu>

>BTW, Kent -- I think I'll be at your Desert City reading in Chapel Hill
next month.

More on the Tennyson later, Mike, but it would be great to meet you at
that reading. I plan to read a sestina I have recently completed on the
NY School! It sounds like the young poets there drink a lot. I hope I
make it back alive. I am getting too old for heavy partying. 

Kent



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 22 13:52:02 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:52:02 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s21b0e8b.000@mail.highland.edu><5292265.1109092800330.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1109095791.421b756f63749@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <01b701c5190f$998a03d0$04042cd9@Robin>

From: <m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk>

> "Breve" is indeed the name for the mark that looks like a little cup - its
> converse is "macron".

Let's not be mealy-mouthed -- you can do this even in plain text -- u  and
inverted v

> Thus it is not the converse of "ictus", though it might be a candidate for
> adoption into that role.

        I agree that "ictus" as a term is a pain, but what's the alternate?

> I agree with Bob - "ictus" itself is far from ideal, it would be better to
> have something more self-explanatory.

        :-(

> Considering the enormous sum of human effort and interest that has been
> invested in accentual-syllabic meter over the last five centuries, I can't
> help thinking it's rather remarkable that what would seem to be basic
> technical terms are simply missing. It also seems remarkable, given the
huge
> academic literature industry, that something as old as Saintsbury
(effectively
> pre-dating the existence of university English) is the nearest thing we
have
> to an authority

        ... but there's Tim Brogan in NPEPP (3).

        Distributed.

        (Update [cut].)

> And the age-old habit of borrowing terms that truly relate to
> quantitative measure is fraught with confusion - apart from anything else,
it
> acts as a practical barrier against even thinking about syllabic
quantities in
> accentual verse, since everything you tried to say would become instantly
> emmeshed in total ambiguity.

        Yikes!!!

> As for the "child's easy world history of poetic forms", a book I've often
> thought I'd quite enjoy reading, I guess that it's a figment of my
imagination.

        I promise you, I really *will* write it someday.

                    <g>

Robin




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 22 14:04:23 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:04:23 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <s21b284d.016@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <01c501c51911$5329bd70$04042cd9@Robin>

> Nothing too complicated, Robin. And no need to get so excited. We are
> talking about prosody, remember. Everything will be OK in the end.
>
> I simply mean the different emphases different readers can give a line.
> This is why, after all, different readers most often disagree on the
> "correct" scansion of a verse. Throw in a few "missing" tails and heads,
> and you can come up with all sorts of fun feet.

That's not rhetoric, Kent, it's the simple difference between speech
pronunciation and metrical stucture.

        R.

(Mind you, the term "rhetoric" plays different on the 2 sides orf da Pond.)




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 22 14:23:39 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:23:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
Message-ID: <s21b3274.066@mail.highland.edu>

>That's not rhetoric, Kent, it's the simple difference between speech
pronunciation and metrical stucture.<

Ah, now we're getting somewhere... You metrists are secret Saussureans!
I hear that outside London there has been of late a spate of unsolved
murders of Bakhtin scholars, their tongueless, disemboweled bodies found
with xeroxes from Dryden stuffed in their mouths.

Ever hear what happened to FS in his last years? He started seeing the
names of classical feet everywhere embedded as paragrams in ancient
Saturnalian poetry. Poor fellow.



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 22 16:54:00 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:54:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Break, Break
Message-ID: <s21b55b9.090@mail.highland.edu>


Break, break, break,
  On thy cold gray stones, O Sea!
And I would that my tongue could utter
  The thoughts that arise in me.


Taking the first stanza, here's my reading:

line 1: three stresses

line 2: anapest, iamb (with a secondary stress on 'gray'), iamb (though
why not an anacrusis, so to make the line more "uniformly" iambic?)

line 3: anapest (though the "And" could as easily be read as stressed,
in which case it is either an amphimacer or a trochee preceding a
dactyl, or two trochees preceding two iambs with a catalexis at the
end... or excluding the catalexis the three last syllables could also be
read as an amphibrach--and by the way, Tennyson was fascinated with
classical meters and experimented with them, so these less common
tri-syllabics can certainly be "justified," it seems to me...Anyway, I
think my point in saying all this is clear), anapest (though isn't it
'heart' not 'tongue'?), iamb,  ending catalexis.

line 4: iamb, anapest, iamb (though if we allow for a pyrrhic as the
second foot, we could get an amphimacer (which Tennyson used as base
foot in early 'quantitative' experiments like "Hesperides"). Then again,
why not read the line as two amphimacers with a "dragging" final foot,
the last as invented by Hipponax? Once we start to do this, of course,
we begin to overwhelm the anapest as supposed primary foot, and why not?
In fact, what IS the reason that dactyls and anapests are legitimate
feet in English and not cretics and amphibrachs? Answer: the admission
of the latter two would throw too much ambiguity into the "structure" of
scansion, and its "objective" character would be undermined more than it
already is.

But all my proposed scansions above are purely contingent on the
bracketing of a host of other variables I haven't even mentioned,
variable readings of stress, as I mentioned in another post, in
particular... The only line in this poem that is beyond question in its
meter is the first one.

I would like to say again that I think meter and its study is useful,
and anyone who wants to understand the Western tradition in poetry must
invest some degree of study into it. And I would say, too, that
accentual rhythms can have important semantic functions, certainly. But
claims as we have seen on this list of late regarding meter's
"ontological" primacy are, in my opinion, cartoonishly reductive of the
poetic art.


From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 22 17:28:22 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:28:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Break, Break
In-Reply-To: <s21b55b9.090@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21b55b9.090@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <10326053.1109111302087.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 04:55PM, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

>
>Break, break, break,
>  On thy cold gray stones, O Sea!
>And I would that my tongue could utter
>  The thoughts that arise in me.
>
>
>Taking the first stanza, here's my reading:
>
>line 1: three stresses
>
>line 2: anapest, iamb (with a secondary stress on 'gray'), iamb (though
>why not an anacrusis, so to make the line more "uniformly" iambic?)
>
>line 3: anapest (though the "And" could as easily be read as stressed,
>in which case it is either an amphimacer or a trochee preceding a
>dactyl, or two trochees preceding two iambs with a catalexis at the
>end... or excluding the catalexis the three last syllables could also be
>read as an amphibrach--and by the way, Tennyson was fascinated with
>classical meters and experimented with them, so these less common
>tri-syllabics can certainly be "justified," it seems to me...Anyway, I
>think my point in saying all this is clear), anapest (though isn't it
>'heart' not 'tongue'?), iamb,  ending catalexis.
>
>line 4: iamb, anapest, iamb (though if we allow for a pyrrhic as the
>second foot, we could get an amphimacer (which Tennyson used as base
>foot in early 'quantitative' experiments like "Hesperides"). Then again,
>why not read the line as two amphimacers with a "dragging" final foot,
>the last as invented by Hipponax? Once we start to do this, of course,
>we begin to overwhelm the anapest as supposed primary foot, and why not?
>In fact, what IS the reason that dactyls and anapests are legitimate
>feet in English and not cretics and amphibrachs? Answer: the admission
>of the latter two would throw too much ambiguity into the "structure" of
>scansion, and its "objective" character would be undermined more than it
>already is.
>
>But all my proposed scansions above are purely contingent on the
>bracketing of a host of other variables I haven't even mentioned,
>variable readings of stress, as I mentioned in another post, in
>particular... The only line in this poem that is beyond question in its
>meter is the first one.
>
>I would like to say again that I think meter and its study is useful,
>and anyone who wants to understand the Western tradition in poetry must
>invest some degree of study into it. And I would say, too, that
>accentual rhythms can have important semantic functions, certainly. But
>claims as we have seen on this list of late regarding meter's
>"ontological" primacy are, in my opinion, cartoonishly reductive of the
>poetic art.


Kent, this is all pretty ingenious -- but it's not how you ought to scan a poem. The first thing is to read the whole thing and then, once you know the general meter (accentual, syllabic, accentual-syllabic, or whatever; if accentual syllabic, rising or falling, double or triple feet) use Occam's razor in scanning individual lines: don't unnecessarily multiply entities. 

In this poem, only one line ends on an unaccented syllable; only the repeated lines, which are anomolous in other ways, begin with a clear accent; all but the repeated lines separate strongly stressed syllables with one or two unstressed syllables. It's clearly rising accentual-syllabic with some variations. 

Pick a name for the two anomalous lines: molossus or whatever you want.

The other lines consist of either all anapests or a combination of iambs and anapests with a single hypermetrical syllable.

BREAK, BREAK, BREAK
  On thy COLD gray STONES, O SEA!
And I WOULD that my TONGUE could UTter
  The THOUGHTS that aRISE in ME.

O, WELL for the FISHerman's BOY,
  That he SHOUTS with his SISter at PLAY!
O, WELL for the SAILor LAD,
  That he SINGS in his BOAT on the BAY!

And the STATEly SHIPS go ON
  To their HAVen UNder the HILL;
But O for the TOUCH of a VANished HAND,
  And the SOUND of a VOICE that is STILL!

BREAK, BREAK, BREAK,
  At the FOOT of thy CRAGS, O SEA!
But the TENDer GRACE of a DAY that is DEAD
  Will NEVer come BACK to ME.


As for ontological priority -- no one claims that. No one claims mopre than that this is a rough and ready way to describe a particular metrical practice in a particular language -- that's all a poet needs, whatever critics might want. But I've never seen it reported that ANY langage either had nothing its speakers regarded as something we could translate as poetry, or that before the 19th century any poetry in any language was made without regard to some metrical standard.

Mike S
>


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 22 17:45:05 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:45:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Break, Break
In-Reply-To: <10326053.1109111302087.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <s21b55b9.090@mail.highland.edu>
	<10326053.1109111302087.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <5276025.1109112305764.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 05:29PM, Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

>
>Pick a name for the two anomalous lines: molossus or whatever you want.
>
>The other lines consist of either all anapests or a combination of iambs and anapests with a single hypermetrical syllable.
>
>BREAK, BREAK, BREAK
>  On thy COLD gray STONES, O SEA!
>And I WOULD that my TONGUE could UTter
>  The THOUGHTS that aRISE in ME.
>
>O, WELL for the FISHerman's BOY,
>  That he SHOUTS with his SISter at PLAY!
>O, WELL for the SAILor LAD,
>  That he SINGS in his BOAT on the BAY!
>
>And the STATEly SHIPS go ON
>  To their HAVen UNder the HILL;
>But O for the TOUCH of a VANished HAND,
>  And the SOUND of a VOICE that is STILL!
>
>BREAK, BREAK, BREAK,
>  At the FOOT of thy CRAGS, O SEA!
>But the TENDer GRACE of a DAY that is DEAD
>  Will NEVer come BACK to ME.
>
>

one more kind of neat thing -- the last staza is a kind of prosodic mirro of the whole poem: the first line repeats the molossus from the first stanza; the second line is basically anapestic trimeter as the second line of the second stanza is trimeter and the only wholly anapestic line; the third line is anapestic tetrameter like the third line of the third stanza; and the last line returns to the base meter of the whole poem.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 22 17:49:18 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:49:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Break, Break
In-Reply-To: <s21b55b9.090@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <421B709E.18519.ADB4E7@localhost>

> line 2: anapest, iamb (with a secondary stress on 'gray'), iamb
> (though why not an anacrusis, so to make the line more "uniformly"
> iambic?)

Your purpose is clearly to try to justify your preconception about 
meter, not to try to explain its perplexing qualities, in pursuit of 
your claim that the possibility of divergent readings of any given 
foot destroys the notion that a whole poem can be said to be written 
in any given meter. 

But in fact the notion of meter is much subtler than you seem willing 
to credit. You want to take the writing and reading of poetry and, 
like Bob Grumman, reduce it to a scientific notation, even though it 
is a volitional human, rather than a non-volitional natural, thing. 
You seem determined to disengage from the context of the whole in 
order to try to examine the details, as if whether a word or phrase 
has an artifical metrical tail ought to be as difficult to change as 
a naturally evolved one.

And then you argue that because the meter is not immutable it is 
meaningless. That's begging the question, Kent. You're concluding, ta 
da, with your premise. It's very bad argument.

> I would like to say again that I think meter and its study is useful,
> and anyone who wants to understand the Western tradition in poetry
> must invest some degree of study into it. And I would say, too, that
> accentual rhythms can have important semantic functions, certainly.
> But claims as we have seen on this list of late regarding meter's
> "ontological" primacy are, in my opinion, cartoonishly reductive of
> the poetic art.<

My claim is that the distinction between poetry and prose is that 
poetry is in meter, and prose is not. I don't claim that poetry must 
be in any particular meter, only that in order to be poetry writing 
must be done in a recognizable and deliberate meter. 

You said before that you have no problem with another name for what 
you call "non-meter poetry", and I suggested that we just call it 
"prose", as so many people have for so long across so many languages. 
I understand that there's a cultural weight and a social significance 
to the claim that one is a poet, that one write's poetry, that does 
not accrue as automatically to people who write prose, but it's 
specious to try to simply co-opt that cultural weight, that social 
significance, by the brazen claim that prose is poetry.

Marcus






From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 22 18:20:33 2005
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:20:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Bang For Your Oscar Buck! This weekend via UES
	and TYPO Magazine in NYC ...
In-Reply-To: <ea.6395804f.2f4ba3c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20050222232033.70081.qmail@web81107.mail.yahoo.com>

Please come! A bona fide Unpleasant Event Schedule
reading this Saturday!


Saturday, February 26, 2:30pm


An Unpleasant Event Schedule reading.  As part of the
Frequency Reading Series, three UES contributors will
read their work:   Leonard Gontarek (from
Philadelphia), Amy King (from Williamsburg, Brooklyn),
and Tracey Knapp (from Boston).


Location:

Four-Faced Liar
165 West 4th Street (at 6th Ave.)
New York, NY
212-366-0608


http://www.shannacompton.com/frequency.html 

http://unpleasanteventschedule.com/ 


AND on Sunday from TYPO Magazine
(http://www.typomag.com/issue05/):

Dear friends, readers, writers, and all who yearn for
the burning chair,

We offer the second installment of the Burning Chair
Readings, featuring Sabrina Orah Mark and Marie
Mutsuki Mockett, set for Sunday, February 27th,
sharply at 8PM.  Due to renovations at the Cloister
Caf?, the gathering will take place two doors down at
**Solas, 232 East 9th Street, between 2nd and 3rd
Avenues.**

Sabrina and Marie write, each in her own way, outside
of the usual literary frameworks.  Each writes
innovatively, accessibly, and beyond prescribed
conventions.  Sabrina's poems figure their way through
the dark contraptions of the world.  It's her voice
versus the inventions of the monsters-time, space, and
the terrible endeavors of humanity.  Marie's fiction
winds through the despairing and laughing shapes of
the world, observing and calculating toward a
discovery that remains unrealized beyond those forms.
Each has found an ageless voice and will lead us, as
audience, into the unlit stretches.

Please, join us for the reading and post-reading
celebration.

Warmly,

Danielle, Dave, Greg, Katy, and Matt


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 22 18:51:05 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:51:05 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Break, Break
Message-ID: <s21b7127.040@mail.highland.edu>

Marcus, 

You are patently distorting what I am saying, charging that I claim
meter is (to use your terms) "non-volitional" instead of "human
volitional," when in fact I am claiming exactly the opposite
*throughout* my post. It should be plain to see that I am saying prosody
is fabricated by (Yes!) human beings and that such fabrication is a
language game composed of rules profoundly malleable and contingent--
plain to see, that is, unless one is determined to cast the red herring
stand-by of "faulty logic," a sure sign the person doing the casting has
little to say in reply. 

As you apparently don't, I'm afraid.


>Marcus said:
But in fact the notion of meter is much subtler than you seem willing 
to credit. You want to take the writing and reading of poetry and, 
like Bob Grumman, reduce it to a scientific notation, even though it 
is a volitional human, rather than a non-volitional natural, thing. 
You seem determined to disengage from the context of the whole in 
order to try to examine the details, as if whether a word or phrase 
has an artifical metrical tail ought to be as difficult to change as 
a naturally evolved one.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Feb 22 18:52:32 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:52:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
References: <1c4.2368ab06.2f4cc6f3@cs.com>
Message-ID: <023401c51939$93a6a750$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


  No one has ever ascertained it for sure, but many do speculate that in the earliest times there was only one art form, one which combined chanted language, musical accompaniment, and dance--like the dithyrambic poetry of the Greeks. 
  I can't believe bodypainting, jewelry, cave-painting weren't around from the beginning.  In fact, some animals practice a form of visual art, so I suspect visual art predated music--which would have predated language.

  --Bob G.


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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Feb 22 18:56:48 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:56:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Break, Break
Message-ID: <s21b7272.042@mail.highland.edu>

Mike,

Just briefly. You say:

>As for ontological priority [of meter] -- no one claims that.

I must ask: Have I been dreaming all those posts by Marcus Bales about
non-metered "poetry" being just prose?




From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 22 19:13:13 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:13:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Break, Break
In-Reply-To: <s21b7272.042@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21b7272.042@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <81dbef2e9f4b3367cd8fbf1cd9ee53f2@mac.com>


On Feb 22, 2005, at 6:56 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Just briefly. You say:
>
>> As for ontological priority [of meter] -- no one claims that.
>
> I must ask: Have I been dreaming all those posts by Marcus Bales about
> non-metered "poetry" being just prose?
>


I don't think that's an ontological claim, Kent -- anymore than my 
saying "this is an email" is an ontological claim. The meaning of 
"chair" can change -- indeed, who would have called a sack full of 
plastic beads a "chair" before the 60s? --  and I think the meaning of 
"poetry" _has_ changed, or at least the meaning of "verse"  has changed 
to include things like free verse, projective verse, etc, instead of 
just metrical (of whatever meter) language. But I think Marcus is 
largely correct in his historical claims.

Mike S

>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 22 19:21:38 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:21:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Break, Break
In-Reply-To: <s21b7127.040@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <421B8642.24576.C6532@localhost>

Kent Johnson wrote:
> You are patently distorting what I am saying, charging that I claim
> meter is (to use your terms) "non-volitional" instead of "human
> volitional," when in fact I am claiming exactly the opposite
> *throughout* my post.<

Your critique is that since meter isn't mathematically predictably 
consistent it is, therefore, not sensible to talk about poems having 
meter at all. 

> It should be plain to see that I am saying
> prosody is fabricated by (Yes!) human beings and that such fabrication
> is a language game composed of rules profoundly malleable and
> contingent-- plain to see<<

Once again, though, your critique is that the rules are not hard and 
fast and that, therefore, the rules are really nonexistent. Your 
critique is that the "profoundly malleable and contingent" character 
of meter is exactly what undermines the notion of meter.

> ... unless one is determined to cast
> the red herring stand-by of "faulty logic," a sure sign the person
> doing the casting has little to say in reply. 

Unfortunately, your logic really is faulty, and that's a significant 
problem with your argument.

Marcus





From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Feb 22 20:29:34 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:29:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "poetry" without meter
In-Reply-To: <1109095791.421b756f63749@webmail.ukonline.net>
References: <s21b0e8b.000@mail.highland.edu>
	<5292265.1109092800330.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1109095791.421b756f63749@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <0a18f8246998314f572d06a504cf638d@mac.com>


On Feb 22, 2005, at 1:09 PM, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote:

> it
> acts as a practical barrier against even thinking about syllabic 
> quantities in
> accentual verse, since everything you tried to say would become 
> instantly
> emmeshed in total ambiguity.
>

It's hard to think about quantitative verse in English because there 
are no stable syllable lengths in English, not because the lexicon was 
appropriated.

Mike S



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Feb 22 22:10:46 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:10:46 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern
Message-ID: <BE415056.FC86%grahamd@ripon.edu>

And a happy 80th birthday to Gerald Stern.


ROMANCE

After thirty years
I am still listening to the pipes,
I am still enchanted
with the singing and moaning of the dry boards.

I am lying there night after night
thinking of water.
I am joining palms, or whistling Mozart
and early Yeats.

I am living without savagery,
stretching my body and turning on my left side
for music,
humming to myself and turning on my right side
for words.
    --Gerald Stern


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Tue Feb 22 22:41:01 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:41:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern
In-Reply-To: <BE415056.FC86%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BE415056.FC86%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0502222239320.23809@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

I love it.  The 17th was his buddy, Jack Gilbert's 80th.  I am sure they
have both kept close track of who is older...




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 23 08:31:43 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:31:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Charles Baxter,
	"The Last String Quartet . . ."
Message-ID: <002301c519ac$037389a0$c3cbed04@computer>


> The Last String Quartet of Arnold Schoenberg
> 
> In California, sick with high blood sugar,
> the composer of moonlight, waltzes, and disaster
> 
> turns in his Old World body for examination
> to the doctors of sun, and the doctors of air.
> 
> With his asthma Schoenberg still gasps in the oxygen
> heated by tennis courts and the commerce of sea;
> 
> the upper octaves of the outdoors hamper his breathing
> as does the ostinato of ocean that falls stupidly on sand.
> 
> Later, out of the hospital, Schoenberg writes to a friend
> that he is working on his new string quartet
> 
> in which will appear all the complexity of his feelings
> about male nurses, and I imagine him
> 
> seeing an entire human order overturned
> and giving that line to the viola,
> 
> a long devious line about a young man dressed all in white
> walking in, and staring pleasantly and having nothing to say,
> 
> who would fill his hours by shrugging and smiling
> while flicking down a thermometer or depressing a tongue.
> 
> The eerie, beautiful American men
> will effect the modulation from G major to A
> 
> as they hold his wrist lightly between their fingers and thumb
> giving him fondly, this staring man, one of their familiar
>      how-are-yous.
> 
> The music will be about these American children
> and their evenings of honey and silk, the untorn cloth
> 
> as if there were no Laws or commandments, no Moses
> to tell them never with a throbbing temple and a pointing finger.
> 
> This quartet won't be about the moon or the sun.
> Schoenberg is done with the moon, the Earth's mad companion,
> 
> which speaks only German, and is instead at his desk writing
> cadences about the way the male nurses walk silently
> 
> into the room; he is writing intervals about their delicate hands
> and how at nightfall they bring him, the man from Vienna,
> 
> his food, the terrible bland chicken and juice,
> how they appear in the dark to check on him,
> 
> these men of water and wind who have passed through the
>     mirror
> to protect and save him--these innocents, these Americans.
> 
> --Charles Baxter
> 
> fr. Imaginary Paintings and Other Poems
> [Latham, New York: Paris Review Editions, 1989]
> 
> 
> Hal              
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
> 
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 23 08:36:37 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:36:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
In-Reply-To: <002301c519ac$037389a0$c3cbed04@computer>
Message-ID: <20050223133637.44245.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com>

you have to remember the fragile flowers trampled down
by every Ubermensch but then I remembered that
Ubermensch really means everyman not superman.  I
found this out in the Beate Uhse Erotik-Museum in
Berlin.  Beate Uhse had been a messerschmidt test
pilot, not a dictator's mother.  PM



I wrote this because I saw a photo of Hitler's mother
this morning.  Actually an attractive woman with black
hair.  It would be impossible to say that she was ugly
and actually Hitler resembled her much more than his
father who was also pictured wearing one of those
Nietzsche moustaches - handle bar that must have
proliferated in the Austro-Hungarian Empire? 



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. 
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From clitophon at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 23 08:36:59 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:36:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
In-Reply-To: <002301c519ac$037389a0$c3cbed04@computer>
Message-ID: <20050223133659.73453.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>

you have to remember the fragile flowers trampled down
by every Ubermensch but then I remembered that
Ubermensch really means everyman not superman.  I
found this out in the Beate Uhse Erotik-Museum in
Berlin.  Beate Uhse had been a messerschmidt test
pilot, not a dictator's mother.  PM



I wrote this because I saw a photo of Hitler's mother
this morning.  Actually an attractive woman with black
hair.  It would be impossible to say that she was ugly
and actually Hitler resembled her much more than his
father who was also pictured wearing one of those
Nietzsche moustaches - handle bar that must have
proliferated in the Austro-Hungarian Empire? 



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo 


From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 23 09:11:37 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:11:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
In-Reply-To: <20050223133659.73453.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <002301c519ac$037389a0$c3cbed04@computer>
Message-ID: <421C48C9.18536.2F86E8@localhost>

On 23 Feb 2005 at 5:36, Paul Murphy wrote:
> you have to remember the fragile flowers trampled down
> by every Ubermensch but then I remembered that
> Ubermensch really means everyman not superman.  I
> found this out in the Beate Uhse Erotik-Museum in
> Berlin....<<

Nietzsche's notion of the Ubermensch is among the most significant in 
his thinking. An Ubermensch, as described by Zarathustra in Thus  
Spoke Zarathustra, is one who is willing to risk all for the sake of 
the improvement of humanity as he sees it needs improving -- someone  
who can affect and influence the lives of others. In other words, an  
Ubermensch has his own values, independent of the common values of  
the everyman. An Ubermensch is someone who has a life that is not  
merely mundane, with nothing in the past or future that is more   
important than pleasure in the present, but rather the Ubermensch 
has a purpose for humanity. "Ubermensch" certainly does not mean 
"everyman", because at every point Nietzsche contrasts the Ubermensch 
with the everyman.






From clitophon at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 23 09:15:36 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 06:15:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
In-Reply-To: <421C48C9.18536.2F86E8@localhost>
Message-ID: <20050223141536.58059.qmail@web40421.mail.yahoo.com>

I'm not sure how we translate it.  I noticed that
Uberalles (mit umlaut) means 'everywhere' not overall
which the nearest English translation suggests.  Can
you demonstrate in relation to the German language
exactly what Ubermensch means?
--- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

> On 23 Feb 2005 at 5:36, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > you have to remember the fragile flowers trampled
> down
> > by every Ubermensch but then I remembered that
> > Ubermensch really means everyman not superman.  I
> > found this out in the Beate Uhse Erotik-Museum in
> > Berlin....<<
> 
> Nietzsche's notion of the Ubermensch is among the
> most significant in 
> his thinking. An Ubermensch, as described by
> Zarathustra in Thus  
> Spoke Zarathustra, is one who is willing to risk all
> for the sake of 
> the improvement of humanity as he sees it needs
> improving -- someone  
> who can affect and influence the lives of others. In
> other words, an  
> Ubermensch has his own values, independent of the
> common values of  
> the everyman. An Ubermensch is someone who has a
> life that is not  
> merely mundane, with nothing in the past or future
> that is more   
> important than pleasure in the present, but rather
> the Ubermensch 
> has a purpose for humanity. "Ubermensch" certainly
> does not mean 
> "everyman", because at every point Nietzsche
> contrasts the Ubermensch 
> with the everyman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed Feb 23 09:22:38 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:22:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by others (list members):  Charles Baxter,
	"The Last String Quartet . . ."
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEFPKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004501c519b3$22bd5140$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Wow, I was thinking of buying this one, but it doesn't come cheap. 35 bucks 
is the least I could find it for anywhere.

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "Johnson, Halvard" <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:09 AM
Subject: Poems by others (list members): Charles Baxter, "The Last String 
Quartet . . ."


>
> The Last String Quartet of Arnold Schoenberg
>
> In California, sick with high blood sugar,
> the composer of moonlight, waltzes, and disaster
>
> turns in his Old World body for examination
> to the doctors of sun, and the doctors of air.
>
> With his asthma Schoenberg still gasps in the oxygen
> heated by tennis courts and the commerce of sea;
>
> the upper octaves of the outdoors hamper his breathing
> as does the ostinato of ocean that falls stupidly on sand.
>
> Later, out of the hospital, Schoenberg writes to a friend
> that he is working on his new string quartet
>
> in which will appear all the complexity of his feelings
> about male nurses, and I imagine him
>
> seeing an entire human order overturned
> and giving that line to the viola,
>
> a long devious line about a young man dressed all in white
> walking in, and staring pleasantly and having nothing to say,
>
> who would fill his hours by shrugging and smiling
> while flicking down a thermometer or depressing a tongue.
>
> The eerie, beautiful American men
> will effect the modulation from G major to A
>
> as they hold his wrist lightly between their fingers and thumb
> giving him fondly, this staring man, one of their familiar
>     how-are-yous.
>
> The music will be about these American children
> and their evenings of honey and silk, the untorn cloth
>
> as if there were no Laws or commandments, no Moses
> to tell them never with a throbbing temple and a pointing finger.
>
> This quartet won't be about the moon or the sun.
> Schoenberg is done with the moon, the Earth's mad companion,
>
> which speaks only German, and is instead at his desk writing
> cadences about the way the male nurses walk silently
>
> into the room; he is writing intervals about their delicate hands
> and how at nightfall they bring him, the man from Vienna,
>
> his food, the terrible bland chicken and juice,
> how they appear in the dark to check on him,
>
> these men of water and wind who have passed through the
>    mirror
> to protect and save him--these innocents, these Americans.
>
> --Charles Baxter
>
> fr. Imaginary Paintings and Other Poems
> [Latham, New York: Paris Review Editions, 1989]
>
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 23 10:02:25 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:02:25 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] metric ontology
Message-ID: <s21c46c1.094@mail.highland.edu>

Mike said:

>I don't think that's an ontological claim, Kent -- anymore than my 
saying "this is an email" is an ontological claim. The meaning of 
"chair" can change -- indeed, who would have called a sack full of 
plastic beads a "chair" before the 60s? --  and I think the meaning of

"poetry" _has_ changed, or at least the meaning of "verse"  has changed

to include things like free verse, projective verse, etc, instead of 
just metrical (of whatever meter) language. But I think Marcus is 
largely correct in his historical claims...<

Mike,

The claim (check the archives) is that the nature of Poetry's *being*
is metrical, and that any other sort of writing not conforming to
traditional meters cannot be considered Poetry. Conversely, the nature
of all linguistic expressions not exhibiting regular traditional meters,
regardless any presence of other patterns, rhythms, or forms is Prose. 

For purposes of general classification, this seems pretty "ontological"
to me.
 



From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 23 10:05:23 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:05:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
In-Reply-To: <20050223141536.58059.qmail@web40421.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <421C48C9.18536.2F86E8@localhost>
Message-ID: <421C5563.12594.60BFFF@localhost>

On 23 Feb 2005 at 6:15, Paul Murphy wrote:
> I'm not sure how we translate it.  I noticed that
> Uberalles (mit umlaut) means 'everywhere' not overall
> which the nearest English translation suggests.<

Of course, translations depend on context -- in one context you may 
translate "uber alles" as "everywhere" and in another as "over all". 
In German no less than in English words have both denotations and 
connotations, and one must beware of both in each language in order 
not to give readers the wrong impression. One can even make jokes 
about translation. What a song that was, though, eh? "German, German 
overalls!" What does "Joan d'Arc" mean? It means "There's no light in 
the bathroom". 

> Can
> you demonstrate in relation to the German language
> exactly what Ubermensch means?<

Yes, but only in context, since words have denotations and 
conotations in both the language from which and the language to which 
one is translating. But if you look the word up in a German-English 
dictionary you'll find that it is translated as "over-man" or 
"superman" or "noble man". I don't know of a translation of 
Ubermensch to "everyman" other than yours. Since your translation is 
so at odds with the common one, it appears to me that the burden of 
proof is on you.

Marcus



> --- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 23 Feb 2005 at 5:36, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > you have to remember the fragile flowers trampled
> > down
> > > by every Ubermensch but then I remembered that
> > > Ubermensch really means everyman not superman.  I
> > > found this out in the Beate Uhse Erotik-Museum in
> > > Berlin....<<
> > 
> > Nietzsche's notion of the Ubermensch is among the
> > most significant in 
> > his thinking. An Ubermensch, as described by
> > Zarathustra in Thus  
> > Spoke Zarathustra, is one who is willing to risk all
> > for the sake of 
> > the improvement of humanity as he sees it needs
> > improving -- someone  
> > who can affect and influence the lives of others. In
> > other words, an  
> > Ubermensch has his own values, independent of the
> > common values of  
> > the everyman. An Ubermensch is someone who has a
> > life that is not  
> > merely mundane, with nothing in the past or future
> > that is more   
> > important than pleasure in the present, but rather
> > the Ubermensch 
> > has a purpose for humanity. "Ubermensch" certainly
> > does not mean 
> > "everyman", because at every point Nietzsche
> > contrasts the Ubermensch 
> > with the everyman.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 23 10:22:57 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:22:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] metric ontology
Message-ID: <s21c4b8b.024@mail.highland.edu>

Marcus said,

>Once again, though, your critique is that the rules are not hard and 
fast and that, therefore, the rules are really nonexistent.< 

No Marcus, that is not at all what I am saying. 

There was this guy named Wittgenstein... Some of his ideas apply to
what I am saying about rules--and some of his ideas apply to the way you
are framing what I am saying!

:~ )

Kent


From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 23 13:52:24 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:52:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] metric ontology
In-Reply-To: <s21c4b8b.024@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <421C8A98.14251.2E15B4@localhost>

> Marcus said,
> >Once again, though, your critique is that the rules are not hard and 
> fast and that, therefore, the rules are really nonexistent.< 
> 
Kent said,
> No Marcus, that is not at all what I am saying. 

Well, that's what you said -- whether it's what you meant to say or 
not may be a different question. You said that because you think it's 
possible to give a lot of different readings of any given foot or 
line that that in and of itself makes the notion of meter itself 
questionable. Here's the quote:

"As I've proposed previously, it's this headless/tailess stuff
(anacrusis/catalexis, along with the vagaries of rhetorical and
"secondary" stress) that renders suspect the architecture of the 
whole edifice."

What you've said there is, once again, since the rules are not hard 
and fast the rules are really nonexistent. You're challenging the 
existence of meter per se -- and if you're not then what are you 
saying?

I understand the rhetorical strategy here: if you can undermine the 
intellectual acceptability of meter per se you've gone a long way 
toward the possibility of establishing the validity of non-meter 
writing as poetry. But I think your attempt to undermine meter per se 
is a result of a misunderstanding about what meter is, and how it is 
used to write poetry, and how readers read it, once they understand 
what meter is and how to read it properly. You seem determined to 
look at the possible ways to say any given word, irrespective of the 
way the context of the meter asks the reader to say it. You seem to 
think that undermining meter is a matter of saying that "object" can 
be pronounced either "OBject" or "obJECT" and that undermines the 
very notion of meter. I think that's a misunderstanding of how meter 
works.

I understand that the cultural weight and the social significance of 
claiming to be "a poet" and to write "poetry" is most of the reason 
that most people want to make that claim, and that it's a lot easier 
to write "free verse" and "experimental verse" and "avant garde 
verse" than it is to write in meter, and that the combination of 
those two has resulted in a lot of non-meter writing called poetry. 

I hold that it's not poetry because poetry must be written in a 
recognizable and deliberate meter precisely to distinguish it from 
prose. The challenge for people who cannot or will not write in meter 
is to establish the artfulness of their writing in prose, though, not 
to try to co-opt the cultural weight and social significance of 
poetry by the brazenness of simply making the claim that it is.

Marcus




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 23 14:28:37 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:28:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] metric ontology
Message-ID: <s21c852a.093@mail.highland.edu>

Reading your replies, Marcus, I'm reminded of the Mad TV skit, where the
cosmetics clerk puts her hands over her ears and yells LALALALALA at the
top of her lungs. Your LALA is one way of "winning an argument," but bad
for the business. But so be it.

Still, on this Prose matter, which seems to be something like your
theoretical schtick... I suppose what I can't help wonder, having read
quite a lot of the kind of contemporary poetry that you (obviously with
some fervor) believe is the True poetry, how it is not obvious that you
(wait, let me start this question over again, that's an awkward
start...): 

Thus: How can you not see that the bulk of the current poetry you
proclaim as the Real Poetry is really very much closer in its nature to
"prose" than the bulk of the writing done in the so-called post-avant
realm of things? Don't you think it really would be more accurate to
call your kind of school "Metered Prose"? 

Even with the more accurate term, you would still have all the cultural
capital of "meter" and all its presumed "greater difficulty."






From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Feb 23 15:00:51 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:00:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] metric ontology
In-Reply-To: <s21c852a.093@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21c852a.093@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <5198141.1109188851211.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, February 23, 2005, at 02:36PM, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

>Reading your replies, Marcus, I'm reminded of the Mad TV skit, where the
>cosmetics clerk puts her hands over her ears and yells LALALALALA at the
>top of her lungs. Your LALA is one way of "winning an argument," but bad
>for the business. But so be it.
>
>Still, on this Prose matter, which seems to be something like your
>theoretical schtick... I suppose what I can't help wonder, having read
>quite a lot of the kind of contemporary poetry that you (obviously with
>some fervor) believe is the True poetry, how it is not obvious that you
>(wait, let me start this question over again, that's an awkward
>start...): 
>
>Thus: How can you not see that the bulk of the current poetry you
>proclaim as the Real Poetry is really very much closer in its nature to
>"prose" than the bulk of the writing done in the so-called post-avant
>realm of things? Don't you think it really would be more accurate to
>call your kind of school "Metered Prose"? 
>
>Even with the more accurate term, you would still have all the cultural
>capital of "meter" and all its presumed "greater difficulty."
>
>
>
>
>

Kent, it seems to me that with this argument you're implicitly accepting that Marcus is correct when he claims that those who do not want a technical definition of "poetry" do want to use "poetry" as an evaluative term -- a condition towards which something rises as it shows more ... more what?

What makes something "metered prose" rather than "poetry"?

What makes something "unmetered prose" rather than "unmetered poetry"?

What makes something "unmetered prose" rather than plain "prose"?

I'm not so sure there is a technical definition of poetry anymore -- but it used to be an imitation of an action, in the medium of written or spoken language, composed in meter. (That's narrower than Marcus's definition -- it leaves out Erasmus Darwin's The Botanic Garden.) Now it seems to be like pornograhy: you know it when you see it. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Mike S

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 23 15:33:12 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:33:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] metric ontology
In-Reply-To: <s21c852a.093@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <421CA238.11741.8A5E93@localhost>

On 23 Feb 2005 at 13:28, Kent Johnson wrote:
> ... How can you not see that the bulk of the current poetry you
> proclaim as the Real Poetry is really very much closer in its nature
> to "prose" than the bulk of the writing done in the so-called
> post-avant realm of things? Don't you think it really would be more
> accurate to call your kind of school "Metered Prose"?<

This once again seems to envision "poetry" as something mystical and 
evanescent, some kind of amorphous essence, a value-laden term 
describing "the good stuff", rather than as a way to distinguish one 
mode of writing from another.

In my view the idea is to reserve the value-laden discussions for 
another time and place by saying poetry is in meter and prose is not. 
That means the question you seem to want to ask, whether it's good or 
not, must be asked in terms other than whether it's poetry or not. 
The question is whether it's good or bad poetry or good or bad prose, 
and the reasons to think some piece of writing or other good or bad 
has nothing to do with whether it is poetry or prose.

Many people seem to want to conflate the notion of poetry with the 
notion of good, though, which maintains "poetry" as a value-laden 
term instead of as a description of one mode of writing. 

It still seems to me that the most likely reason to want to maintain 
"poetry" as a value-laden term is to try to hijack the cultural 
weight and social significance of "poetry" for those who write prose 
but claim to write poetry because it's easier to claim to that prose 
is poetry than it is actually to learn to write in meter, to write 
poetry.

For thousands of years across thousands of languages as far as we 
know so far there has always been this distinction between poetry and 
prose: that poetry is in meter, and prose is not. The attempt to 
conflate the two is rooted, I think, in the greater cultural weight 
and social significance of poetry. People who do not want to learn 
how to write in meter want to be known as poets, so they have set 
about to call their prose poetry in order to gain some of that 
cultural weight and social significance for themselves without having 
to do the actual work of writing poetry.

Marcus




From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 23 15:51:24 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:51:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
Message-ID: <421CA67C.13912.9B0923@localhost>

On 23 Feb 2005 at 6:15, Paul Murphy wrote:
> I'm not sure how we translate it.  I noticed that
> Uberalles (mit umlaut) means 'everywhere' not overall
> which the nearest English translation suggests.<

Of course, translations depend on context -- in one context you may 
translate "uber alles" as "everywhere" and in another as "over all". 
In German no less than in English words have both denotations and 
connotations, and one must beware of both in each language in order 
not to give readers the wrong impression. One can even make jokes 
about translation. What a song that was, though, eh? "German, German 
overalls!" What does "Joan d'Arc" mean? It means "There's no light in 

the bathroom". 

> Can
> you demonstrate in relation to the German language
> exactly what Ubermensch means?<

Yes, but only in context, since words have denotations and 
conotations in both the language from which and the language to which 

one is translating. But if you look the word up in a German-English 
dictionary you'll find that it is translated as "over-man" or 
"superman" or "noble man". I don't know of a translation of 
Ubermensch to "everyman" other than yours. Since your translation is 
so at odds with the common one, it appears to me that the burden of 
proof is on you.

Marcus



> --- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 23 Feb 2005 at 5:36, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > you have to remember the fragile flowers trampled
> > down
> > > by every Ubermensch but then I remembered that
> > > Ubermensch really means everyman not superman.  I
> > > found this out in the Beate Uhse Erotik-Museum in
> > > Berlin....<<
> > 
> > Nietzsche's notion of the Ubermensch is among the
> > most significant in 
> > his thinking. An Ubermensch, as described by
> > Zarathustra in Thus  
> > Spoke Zarathustra, is one who is willing to risk all
> > for the sake of 
> > the improvement of humanity as he sees it needs
> > improving -- someone  
> > who can affect and influence the lives of others. In
> > other words, an  
> > Ubermensch has his own values, independent of the
> > common values of  
> > the everyman. An Ubermensch is someone who has a
> > life that is not  
> > merely mundane, with nothing in the past or future
> > that is more   
> > important than pleasure in the present, but rather
> > the Ubermensch 
> > has a purpose for humanity. "Ubermensch" certainly
> > does not mean 
> > "everyman", because at every point Nietzsche
> > contrasts the Ubermensch 
> > with the everyman.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 






From Thom424 at aol.com  Wed Feb 23 15:53:10 2005
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:53:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] metric ontology
Message-ID: <dd.20d27cce.2f4e4736@aol.com>

stepping away for a moment from the main discussion of metered poetry and 
nonmetered poetry, i'm struck again by marcus's use of the phrase "cultural 
weight and social significance of poetry" and writers' desire to co-opt its weight 
and significance of poetry.

i'm wondering if others out there share marcus's belief that poetry (or being 
called a poet) holds cultural weight and social significance of poetry?

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Feb 23 16:01:07 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:01:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] metric ontology
In-Reply-To: <dd.20d27cce.2f4e4736@aol.com>
References: <dd.20d27cce.2f4e4736@aol.com>
Message-ID: <14008702.1109192467035.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

once upon a time -- now just vestiges like "poetry in motion" 

On Wednesday, February 23, 2005, at 03:54PM, <Thom424 at aol.com> wrote:

>
><<Original Attached>>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>

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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 23 18:30:31 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:30:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] metrical ontology on Galapagos
Message-ID: <s21cbdd8.069@mail.highland.edu>

>Kent, it seems to me that with this argument you're implicitly
accepting that Marcus is correct when he claims that those who do not
want a technical definition of "poetry" do want to use "poetry" as an
evaluative term -- a condition towards which something rises as it shows
more ... more what?<

Mike, not at all, and I don't see how you infer this. I do happen to
believe that poetic evaluation is contingent on many factors, and in
ways that are usually too complex for any final sociological analyses we
might want to provide. In the main, though, I believe that different
reading formations make and reproduce their own evaluative criteria--and
in the cultural domain, particularly, these axiological values develop
and are sustained in a kind of Galapagos manner, if you will, so that
different sub-cultures (New Formalism and the post-avant, for instance)
have a very hard time communicating! 

Nor do I object to technical criteria entering aesthetic evaluation,
for goodness sakes (!). But I do object to "technical definitions," as
you put it, of the genre, such as the one Marcus (y tu?) provides, i.e.,
that only "regularly" indentifiable meter (whatever exactly that means)
qualifies as Poetry. Such a view is to the manifold poetic art what
Christian fundamentalism or Wahhabism is to faith. It is a view so
narrow and reductive one who holds it is forced, so far as I can see, to
classify Whitman or Vallejo or Ponge, for examples that pop to mind, as
poser-poets, mere practitioners of a "less-difficult prose." Do you
really believe that?

>What makes something "metered prose" rather than "poetry"?

>What makes something "unmetered prose" rather than "unmetered
poetry"?

>What makes something "unmetered prose" rather than plain "prose"?

Well, Mike, these are questions best left for the separate reading
formations to work out. But don't come over to *my island* and tell me
that you are the only kind of tortoise that matters in the world. Show
me your different and regularly patterned shell, but don't play king
tortoise with me, because you're just one more species among many in the
great chain of being. 

>I'm not so sure there is a technical definition of poetry anymore --
but it used to be an imitation of an action, in the medium of written or
spoken language, composed in meter. (That's narrower than Marcus's
definition -- it leaves out Erasmus Darwin's The Botanic Garden.) Now it
seems to be like pornograhy: you know it when you see it. I'm not sure
that's a good thing.<

We all should keep trying to figure the mystery out as best we can.
That's part of what we do and why we do it. Who are we and where are we
going, and all that? What is it we do and where is it taking us? etc. To
make sweeping ideological pronouncements about what is and isn't
legitimate in the art is not in the spirit of what we should be about as
poets, seems to me. (Mind you, in saying this, I am fully aware that
this is not just a problem of doctrinaire New Formalists, and I'm on
record, for what it's worth, as a critic of very similar dogmatic
inanities up-chucked by the post-avant.)

Kent




From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Feb 23 20:01:36 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:01:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] metrical ontology on Galapagos
In-Reply-To: <s21cbdd8.069@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21cbdd8.069@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <fb112b32708f845eeeee8cb380e382f3@mac.com>

A short answer Kent, since I've got  9 hours of work and 5 hours of 
driving tomorrow and it's almost bedtime.

I _don't_ think meter is necessary in poetry, but until fairly recently 
(150 years or so) almost everyone did. Many people still do -- the 
engineers I work with now and the roofers I worked with in the 90s, for 
instance. I write mostly (but not exclusively) accentual-syllabic 
poetry myself, but I'm not about to tell someone else what they can or 
can't do in a poem.

When you said much formal poetry could be better described as metered 
prose,  it seemed to me (and I've been wrong before) that you were 
arguing for some ineffable principle which makes something poetry, 
rather like vitalism in biology. Like vitalism, it's pretty useless 
even if it were true, since there's nothing one can say or do but 
assert, without evidence, that something has that quality or doesn't. 
Meter (no particular meter, mind you) can at least be pointed to, and 
Marcus's definition (I still  don't think it's an ontological claim) 
has that virtue. I think it's wrong, but I'm also uncomfortable not 
being able to articulate just what makes something a poem for me.

Best,

Mike S


On Feb 23, 2005, at 6:30 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

>> Kent, it seems to me that with this argument you're implicitly
> accepting that Marcus is correct when he claims that those who do not
> want a technical definition of "poetry" do want to use "poetry" as an
> evaluative term -- a condition towards which something rises as it 
> shows
> more ... more what?<
>
> Mike, not at all, and I don't see how you infer this. I do happen to
> believe that poetic evaluation is contingent on many factors, and in
> ways that are usually too complex for any final sociological analyses 
> we
> might want to provide. In the main, though, I believe that different
> reading formations make and reproduce their own evaluative 
> criteria--and
> in the cultural domain, particularly, these axiological values develop
> and are sustained in a kind of Galapagos manner, if you will, so that
> different sub-cultures (New Formalism and the post-avant, for instance)
> have a very hard time communicating!
>
> Nor do I object to technical criteria entering aesthetic evaluation,
> for goodness sakes (!). But I do object to "technical definitions," as
> you put it, of the genre, such as the one Marcus (y tu?) provides, 
> i.e.,
> that only "regularly" indentifiable meter (whatever exactly that means)
> qualifies as Poetry. Such a view is to the manifold poetic art what
> Christian fundamentalism or Wahhabism is to faith. It is a view so
> narrow and reductive one who holds it is forced, so far as I can see, 
> to
> classify Whitman or Vallejo or Ponge, for examples that pop to mind, as
> poser-poets, mere practitioners of a "less-difficult prose." Do you
> really believe that?
>
>> What makes something "metered prose" rather than "poetry"?
>
>> What makes something "unmetered prose" rather than "unmetered
> poetry"?
>
>> What makes something "unmetered prose" rather than plain "prose"?
>
> Well, Mike, these are questions best left for the separate reading
> formations to work out. But don't come over to *my island* and tell me
> that you are the only kind of tortoise that matters in the world. Show
> me your different and regularly patterned shell, but don't play king
> tortoise with me, because you're just one more species among many in 
> the
> great chain of being.
>
>> I'm not so sure there is a technical definition of poetry anymore --
> but it used to be an imitation of an action, in the medium of written 
> or
> spoken language, composed in meter. (That's narrower than Marcus's
> definition -- it leaves out Erasmus Darwin's The Botanic Garden.) Now 
> it
> seems to be like pornograhy: you know it when you see it. I'm not sure
> that's a good thing.<
>
> We all should keep trying to figure the mystery out as best we can.
> That's part of what we do and why we do it. Who are we and where are we
> going, and all that? What is it we do and where is it taking us? etc. 
> To
> make sweeping ideological pronouncements about what is and isn't
> legitimate in the art is not in the spirit of what we should be about 
> as
> poets, seems to me. (Mind you, in saying this, I am fully aware that
> this is not just a problem of doctrinaire New Formalists, and I'm on
> record, for what it's worth, as a critic of very similar dogmatic
> inanities up-chucked by the post-avant.)
>
> Kent
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Feb 23 20:45:54 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:45:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern
Message-ID: <1ea.372dfdc0.2f4e8bd2@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/22/2005 10:42:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes:

> I love it.  The 17th was his buddy, Jack Gilbert's 80th.  I am sure they
> have both kept close track of who is older...
> 
> 

My mind flashes, affectionately, to the cover of Stern's _The Red Coal._
Finnegan
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Feb 23 20:53:40 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:53:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] metrical ontology on Galapagos
Message-ID: <s21cdf60.032@mail.highland.edu>

That's an interesting, clarifying response, Mike. To make a small
clarfication of my own, those were merely impersonal second person forms
I was using with the tortoises!

See you in Chapel Hill! 

Kent

P.S. Even though you mainly write in accentual syllabics, do you still
drink beer? 


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Feb 23 20:54:05 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:54:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Break, Break, Break
Message-ID: <11.3fb5fa4f.2f4e8dbd@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/22/2005 5:49:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> You said before that you have no problem with another name for what 
> you call "non-meter poetry", and I suggested that we just call it 
> "prose", as so many people have for so long across so many languages. 
> I understand that there's a cultural weight and a social significance 
> to the claim that one is a poet, that one write's poetry, that does 
> not accrue as automatically to people who write prose, but it's 
> specious to try to simply co-opt that cultural weight, that social 
> significance, by the brazen claim that prose is poetry.
> 

You are free to call it what you want. You have to win the day
in the marketplace of ideas. I'm afraid the battle is lost....but
there were Japanese holed up in dug-outs on remote Pacific
islands for many years after the WW2 was over....
Keep fighting the good fight, you happy few.
Finnegn
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Feb 23 21:06:50 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:06:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] metric ontology
Message-ID: <59.21fd5aed.2f4e90ba@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/23/2005 3:53:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Thom424 at aol.com writes:

> i'm wondering if others out there share marcus's belief that poetry (or 
> being called a poet) holds cultural weight and social significance of poetry?
> 
> thom tammaro

I don't share Marcus' distinction between poetry and prose. The word 
'poetry', though the public is largely disconnected from its manifestations in our 
times, still has some weight. Before getting online tonight, on TV,  they we're 
counting down the greatest clutch sports figures of all time and Joe Montana 
was #2. In one clip as Montana was driving the Niners down the field against the 
Bengals late in the game, the sportcaster said it "was almost like poetry." 
Almost, almost.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 23 22:21:41 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:21:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] metric ontology
References: <59.21fd5aed.2f4e90ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02c701c51a22$31f4e370$4eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



    i'm wondering if others out there share marcus's belief that poetry (or being called a poet) holds cultural weight and social significance of poetry?

    thom tammaro


  I don't share Marcus' distinction between poetry and prose. The word 'poetry', though the public is largely disconnected from its manifestations in our times, still has some weight. Before getting online tonight, on TV,  they we're counting down the greatest clutch sports figures of all time and Joe Montana was #2. In one clip as Montana was driving the Niners down the field against the Bengals late in the game, the sportcaster said it "was almost like poetry." Almost, almost.
  Finnegan 
  I dunno about "social significance," but the term, "poet," does have cultural weight with a good many people.  With me, for instance--I have trouble describing myself to others as a poet not because I fear they'll look down on me but because I fear I don't deserve the title.  Others, who think I do, introduce me as such with pride.  Sure, a lot of others think poetry (and not just mine) an eccentricity, and there are the practical souls who make up the bulk of humanity and always have.  But even some of them are capable of somewhat respecting poetry.  Other professions are similar.  Take teaching.  Or law.  Even science.

  --Bob G.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 24 07:15:08 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:15:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Leslie Scalapino,
	3 sections from "Hmmm"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEHMKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


3 sections from "Hmmm"


Dog

Suppose I was thinking something, say, not knowing I was thinking it,
one day when I saw this dog before a house on the sidewalk,    he
not really sidling toward me,    but more like loping sideways?
Well, his tongue was lolling. And he was whining the way human heads
loll forward in sleep and whinny.    Something so hesitant and low
More so, because it was a nasal sound, a neigh, the way
we neigh, not thinking, when we are nervously mimicking a horse.
So I mimicked him, the dog, right back. Really I was being flippant
by pretending to gallop; and all the while not moving,
and letting my tongue slip forward between my lips, really laughing.


===

Seeing the Scenery

Satisfied this morning because I saw myself
(for the first time) in the mirror as a mountain. I mean by this
I "saw the scenery" in myself. Whereas I had pores
and veins and a brain, I was a mountain in the same way
one has boulders or trees. How would this explain, I wondered,
whatever emotions such as affaction, cruelty or indifference I feel?
And I knew no matter how careful one is,
pebbles and grains will be modified put in a human form.


===

mira      culously

Only when I walked out onto the diving board at a swimming pool
did I notice    that a woman in front of me, standing ready to dive
off the tip of the board,    shot me one of her side-long glances,
her lips, I noted, parted to show a line of teeth, and her hair
shaggy. Well, I got up very close to her, crowding her a little
before she dived off the board. And then I followed
her,    diving in order to come up at the same spot    (at least
that is what I thought)    bursting up out of
the water that way, with my jaws clenched    (as if already
I had my teeth into her). And she, snout now dripping water, mira-
culously    bobbed up further away (naturally),    as if taunting me.


--Leslie Scalapino

in Considering how exaggerated music is
[San Francisco: North Point Press, 1982]


Hal        

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/


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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 24 08:05:47 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:05:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] metrical ontology on Galapagos
In-Reply-To: <s21cbdd8.069@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <421D8ADB.31968.3C1AC6@localhost>

Kent Johnson wrote:
> > ... How can you not see that the bulk of the current poetry you
> >proclaim as the Real Poetry is really very much closer in its nature
> >to "prose" than the bulk of the writing done in the so-called
> >post-avant realm of things? Don't you think it really would be more
> >accurate to call your kind of school "Metered Prose"? 
> >Even with the more accurate term, you would still have all the
> >cultural capital of "meter" and all its presumed "greater
> >difficulty."

Mike Snider wrote:
> Kent, it seems to me that with this argument you're implicitly
> accepting that Marcus is correct when he claims that those who do not
> want a technical definition of "poetry" do want to use "poetry" as an
> evaluative term -- a condition towards which something rises as it
> shows more ... more what?

Kent Johnson wrote:
> Mike, not at all, and I don't see how you infer this.<

Because you're finding "poetry" in "prose" -- you're clearly of the 
view that one can find this evanescent quality of "poetry" in any 
sort of text. You're trying to get me to accept that poetry is not a 
descriptive term of a certain kind of writing, as a tortoise is a 
certain kind of animal; you're trying to say that poetry can be found 
in any text, which is like saying that tortoisehood can be found in 
any animal.

Kent Johnson wrote:
> ... I do object to "technical definitions," as
> you put it, of the genre, such as the one Marcus (y tu?) provides,
> i.e., that only "regularly" indentifiable meter (whatever exactly that
> means) qualifies as Poetry. Such a view is to the manifold poetic art
> what Christian fundamentalism or Wahhabism is to faith. It is a view
> so narrow and reductive one who holds it is forced, so far as I can
> see, to classify Whitman or Vallejo or Ponge, for examples that pop to
> mind, as poser-poets, mere practitioners of a "less-difficult prose."
> Do you really believe that?<

Yes. And this "Do you really believe that?" tone is a good example of 
the reason it seems to me you hold that "poetry" is a term of 
evaluation, a value-laden term. Far from trying to explain the 
perplexing, you are instead trying to justify the questionable. 

> ... don't come over to *my island* and tell me
> that you are the only kind of tortoise that matters in the world. Show
> me your different and regularly patterned shell, but don't play king
> tortoise with me, because you're just one more species among many in
> the great chain of being.<

But that actually argues for a descriptive use of "poetry" by 
analogy:

poetry : tortoise :: species of poetry : species of tortoise

You have to make a definition of tortoise before you can identify 
species of tortoise; and you have to make a definition of poetry 
before you can identify species of poetry. The only way this makes 
even remote sense is metaphorically -- to say that there is a 
"tortoiseness" that corresponds to "poetry", and that you can find 
"tortoiseness" in any animal as you can find "poetry" in any text.
  
Kent Johnson wrote:
> We all should keep trying to figure the mystery out as best we can.
> That's part of what we do and why we do it. Who are we and where are
> we going, and all that? What is it we do and where is it taking us?
> etc.<

But there's really no mystery to the distinction between poetry and 
prose. Poetry is what's in meter; prose is what is not in meter. The 
mystery is what makes GOOD poetry and GOOD prose; and what makes each 
great. You're purporting to pursue this amorphous "poetry" or 
"tortoiseness" you cannot describe or define across boundaries that 
make the pursuit ridiculous. Good prose is not poetry and good poetry 
is not prose -- what is good and bad in poetry or prose are different 
questions than whether what we have before us is poetry or prose.

> To make sweeping ideological pronouncements about what is and
> isn't legitimate in the art is not in the spirit of what we should be
> about as poets, seems to me.<

I'm pointing out the distinction between one mode of writing and 
another. It is your concern with being "legitimate" that is exactly 
the concern I pointed out before: a desire to be known as a poet 
without going to the trouble of writing in meter, of writing poetry. 
You feel acutely, it seems, an illegitimacy in the claim that non-
meter writing is poetry. 

We have a disagreement here about whether poetry is a mode of writing 
or a term of value; I hold it's a mode of writing, you hold it's a 
term of value. You seem to see "poetry" not as a piece of writing 
different from prose but as a way to reward a piece of writing with 
praise. Your use of "poetry" is no different from the use of "poetry" 
to describe Joe Montana's drive down the field. You're using it not 
as a description of writing but metaphorically as a synonym for 
"good" or even "excellent".

Marcus





From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu Feb 24 09:18:53 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:18:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern
In-Reply-To: <1ea.372dfdc0.2f4e8bd2@aol.com>
References: <1ea.372dfdc0.2f4e8bd2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0502240918480.22856@shell2.oit.umass.edu>

Right




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu Feb 24 09:19:24 2005
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:19:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern
In-Reply-To: <1ea.372dfdc0.2f4e8bd2@aol.com>
References: <1ea.372dfdc0.2f4e8bd2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0502240918580.22856@shell2.oit.umass.edu>

Right.  And who was doing the talking...?

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/22/2005 10:42:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes:
>
> > I love it.  The 17th was his buddy, Jack Gilbert's 80th.  I am sure they
> > have both kept close track of who is older...
> >
> >
>
> My mind flashes, affectionately, to the cover of Stern's _The Red Coal._
> Finnegan
>

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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Thu Feb 24 09:42:24 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:42:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry at "The Gates"
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9C5@URANIUM.ripon.college>

 From the Academy of American Poets in their Almanac today--


February 24: Poetry at "The Gates" 
"All of us are poets, but we just need to be reminded sometimes," says Colleen Delaney, an arts activist and attorney who is organizing a weekend event that aims to encourage collaboration between public art and public poetry. 

The setting will be "The Gates," Christo and Jeanne-Claude's latest public art project, which opened in New York City's Central Park on February 12. With 7,500 16-foot-high gates draped in orange fabric along 23 miles of footpaths, the public art installation has been billed as a "visual golden river." "The Gates, Central Park, New York, 1979-2005," the piece's official title, has brought more than a million visitors from around the city, country, and world, into a park that is not usually quite so populated during the winter months. 
___________________

Rest of story:
http://www.poets.org/almanac/



============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================

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From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Thu Feb 24 09:45:53 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:45:53 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net><KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20050221140704.032d3798@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1109256353.421de8a117032@webmail.ukonline.net>


Googling "ictus" proved quite instructive.

1. In Latin prosody, it does not precisely mean either "long syllable" 
or "accented syllable". It does mean the initial syllable of a foot, which may 
have provided a tempo indication and carried a notional stress, very 
comparable to the first note in a bar of music. Thus, in Latin, the second 
syllable of an iamb could never, by definition, be an ictus.

Which seems to confirm my view that borrowing metrical terms from other 
traditions is a recipe for confusion. I think I'm going to go with Grumman's 
oddly memorable "nyllables" - and their opposite, "stryllables" perhaps. 

2. https://atiam.train.army.mil/portal/atia/adlsc/view/public/295856-
1/accp/mu4200/pe2.htm   - See how you get on with this practice exam on ictus 
and meter in the context of being a military baton-master! 

3. "Ictus" in Spanish (and Italian) means a stroke, in the sense of "una 
enfermedad cerebrovascular"...

Curiously thought-provoking, though exactly what thought I wd find hard to put 
into words. ...








 














Quoting Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>:

> My entry for "unstressed syllable in a meteric foot": "nyllable"--from "nil"
> 
> and "syllable."
> 
> --Bob G. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net


From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 24 09:47:44 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:47:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A: Philip Levine goes two for two
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEIEKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Q&A: Philip Levine goes two for two

Interviewer:  Do you know your own poems by heart?

Levine:  No, I make an effort not to learn them by heart. I know a
lot of people memorize their poems and give readings from memory,
but I try to forget mine. I find that makes the readings more interesting
for me; I'm often actually surprised by the phrasing, really quite
delighted by it. Also, I don't want to sit down and write my own poems
again; I want my mind clear of them. At my age the big danger for
a poet is that he's going to rewrite his own work. One can feel very
secure doing another version of what already worked.

Interviewer: Do you feel a split between your life as a political person
and your life as a poet?

Levine: I'm cowardly. I should stop paying my taxes. I know that the
government in Washington is full of terrible people with terrible plans.
They will murder people here and abroad to gain more power. Those
who have dominated our country most of my adult life are interested
in maintaining an empire, subjugating other people, enslaving them if
need be, and finally killing those who protest so that wealthy and
powerful Americans can go on enjoying their advantages over others.
I'm not doing a thing about it. I'm not a man of action. It finally comes
down to that. I'm not so profoundly moral that I can overcome my
fears of prison or torture or exile or poverty. I'm a contemplative
person who goes in the corner and writes. What can we do? I guess
we can hang on and encourage each other, dig in, protest in every
peaceful way possible and hope that people are better than they
seem. We can describe ourselves as horribly racist people, which
we are, as imperialists, which we have been and are, but we can also
see ourselves as bountiful, gracious, full of wit, courage, resourceful-
ness. I still believe in this county, that is can fulfill the destiny Blake
and Whitman envisioned. I still believe in American poetry.

fr. *The Paris Review* 107, Summer 1988


Hal          

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Feb 24 10:45:41 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:45:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent and Marcus ride over the horizon
Message-ID: <s21da259.040@mail.highland.edu>

Marcus,

This is a wonderfully entertaining email. And your firm commitment to
regular beats as the protein signature of the superior species is
admirable. In the end, how can one argue with a certainty like yours?
"Poetry is defined by THIS. The rest is Prose." 

I grant you your right to such a conception (not that you need my
permission). And I wish you luck with the continued accumulation of
cultural capital which metered Poetry may bring you and your comrades. 

And yet, and yet... perhaps in the end, much as we'd like to think
otherwise, we don't have a whole lot of say about the unfolding of
poetry's nature, nor where it will take us and our descendants. I will
continue to do my best and so will you. The sun now is low in the sky.
The little boys riding the great, strange shells of the two tortoises
(one is named Poetry; the other, for fun, Prose) wave their little
hands, and as they wave, their parents grow smaller. Goodbye little
boys, goodbye. Remember to write and don't let your minds turn into
fists! And as you go away over the horizon, don't forget that slow and
steady always wins the race...


>>> "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com> 02/24/05 7:05 AM >>>
Kent Johnson wrote:
> > ... How can you not see that the bulk of the current poetry you
> >proclaim as the Real Poetry is really very much closer in its
nature
> >to "prose" than the bulk of the writing done in the so-called
> >post-avant realm of things? Don't you think it really would be more
> >accurate to call your kind of school "Metered Prose"? 
> >Even with the more accurate term, you would still have all the
> >cultural capital of "meter" and all its presumed "greater
> >difficulty."

Mike Snider wrote:
> Kent, it seems to me that with this argument you're implicitly
> accepting that Marcus is correct when he claims that those who do
not
> want a technical definition of "poetry" do want to use "poetry" as
an
> evaluative term -- a condition towards which something rises as it
> shows more ... more what?

Kent Johnson wrote:
> Mike, not at all, and I don't see how you infer this.<

Because you're finding "poetry" in "prose" -- you're clearly of the 
view that one can find this evanescent quality of "poetry" in any 
sort of text. You're trying to get me to accept that poetry is not a 
descriptive term of a certain kind of writing, as a tortoise is a 
certain kind of animal; you're trying to say that poetry can be found 
in any text, which is like saying that tortoisehood can be found in 
any animal.

Kent Johnson wrote:
> ... I do object to "technical definitions," as
> you put it, of the genre, such as the one Marcus (y tu?) provides,
> i.e., that only "regularly" indentifiable meter (whatever exactly
that
> means) qualifies as Poetry. Such a view is to the manifold poetic
art
> what Christian fundamentalism or Wahhabism is to faith. It is a view
> so narrow and reductive one who holds it is forced, so far as I can
> see, to classify Whitman or Vallejo or Ponge, for examples that pop
to
> mind, as poser-poets, mere practitioners of a "less-difficult
prose."
> Do you really believe that?<

Yes. And this "Do you really believe that?" tone is a good example of 
the reason it seems to me you hold that "poetry" is a term of 
evaluation, a value-laden term. Far from trying to explain the 
perplexing, you are instead trying to justify the questionable. 

> ... don't come over to *my island* and tell me
> that you are the only kind of tortoise that matters in the world.
Show
> me your different and regularly patterned shell, but don't play king
> tortoise with me, because you're just one more species among many in
> the great chain of being.<

But that actually argues for a descriptive use of "poetry" by 
analogy:

poetry : tortoise :: species of poetry : species of tortoise

You have to make a definition of tortoise before you can identify 
species of tortoise; and you have to make a definition of poetry 
before you can identify species of poetry. The only way this makes 
even remote sense is metaphorically -- to say that there is a 
"tortoiseness" that corresponds to "poetry", and that you can find 
"tortoiseness" in any animal as you can find "poetry" in any text.
  
Kent Johnson wrote:
> We all should keep trying to figure the mystery out as best we can.
> That's part of what we do and why we do it. Who are we and where are
> we going, and all that? What is it we do and where is it taking us?
> etc.<

But there's really no mystery to the distinction between poetry and 
prose. Poetry is what's in meter; prose is what is not in meter. The 
mystery is what makes GOOD poetry and GOOD prose; and what makes each 
great. You're purporting to pursue this amorphous "poetry" or 
"tortoiseness" you cannot describe or define across boundaries that 
make the pursuit ridiculous. Good prose is not poetry and good poetry 
is not prose -- what is good and bad in poetry or prose are different 
questions than whether what we have before us is poetry or prose.

> To make sweeping ideological pronouncements about what is and
> isn't legitimate in the art is not in the spirit of what we should
be
> about as poets, seems to me.<

I'm pointing out the distinction between one mode of writing and 
another. It is your concern with being "legitimate" that is exactly 
the concern I pointed out before: a desire to be known as a poet 
without going to the trouble of writing in meter, of writing poetry. 
You feel acutely, it seems, an illegitimacy in the claim that non-
meter writing is poetry. 

We have a disagreement here about whether poetry is a mode of writing 
or a term of value; I hold it's a mode of writing, you hold it's a 
term of value. You seem to see "poetry" not as a piece of writing 
different from prose but as a way to reward a piece of writing with 
praise. Your use of "poetry" is no different from the use of "poetry" 
to describe Joe Montana's drive down the field. You're using it not 
as a description of writing but metaphorically as a synonym for 
"good" or even "excellent".

Marcus





From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Thu Feb 24 10:49:18 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:49:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Weldon Kees
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9C9@URANIUM.ripon.college>

Happy birthday, wherever you are, Weldon!

(91 years old in Mexico, maybe. . . .)



The Smiles Of The Bathers

The smiles of the bathers fade as they leave the water,
And the lover feels sadness fall as it ends, as he leaves his love.
The scholar, closing his book as the midnight clock strikes, is hollow
      and old:
The pilot's relief on landing is no release.
These perfect and private things, walling us in, have imperfect and
      public endings--
Water and wind and flight, remembered words and the act of love
Are but interruptions. And the world, like a beast, impatient and
      quick,
Waits only for those who are dead. No death for you. You are
                        involved. 

--Weldon Kees


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================

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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 24 10:54:21 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:54:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent and Marcus ride over the horizon
In-Reply-To: <s21da259.040@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <421DB25D.23128.6CFBD8@localhost>

On 24 Feb 2005 at 9:45, Kent Johnson wrote:
> This is a wonderfully entertaining email. And your firm commitment to
> regular beats as the protein signature of the superior species is
> admirable. In the end, how can one argue with a certainty like yours?
> "Poetry is defined by THIS. The rest is Prose." <

Regular meter, not regular beats; regular beats is only one kind of 
meter. 

I am putting forward a definition -- which is tautological by nature. 
What you do not do is put forward your definition, which you feel is 
clearly different from mine, in order to compare the two. It's not a 
matter of my "certainty", it's a matter of comparing my definition to 
yours.  What's yours?

> And yet, and yet... perhaps in the end, much as we'd like to think
> otherwise, we don't have a whole lot of say about the unfolding of
> poetry's nature, nor where it will take us and our descendants.<

What is poetry's nature as you understand it to have unfolded as of 
now?

Marcus





> >>> "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com> 02/24/05 7:05 AM >>>
> Kent Johnson wrote:
> > > ... How can you not see that the bulk of the current poetry you
> > >proclaim as the Real Poetry is really very much closer in its
> nature
> > >to "prose" than the bulk of the writing done in the so-called
> > >post-avant realm of things? Don't you think it really would be more
> > >accurate to call your kind of school "Metered Prose"? Even with the
> > >more accurate term, you would still have all the cultural capital
> > >of "meter" and all its presumed "greater difficulty."
> 
> Mike Snider wrote:
> > Kent, it seems to me that with this argument you're implicitly
> > accepting that Marcus is correct when he claims that those who do
> not
> > want a technical definition of "poetry" do want to use "poetry" as
> an
> > evaluative term -- a condition towards which something rises as it
> > shows more ... more what?
> 
> Kent Johnson wrote:
> > Mike, not at all, and I don't see how you infer this.<
> 
> Because you're finding "poetry" in "prose" -- you're clearly of the
> view that one can find this evanescent quality of "poetry" in any sort
> of text. You're trying to get me to accept that poetry is not a
> descriptive term of a certain kind of writing, as a tortoise is a
> certain kind of animal; you're trying to say that poetry can be found
> in any text, which is like saying that tortoisehood can be found in
> any animal.
> 
> Kent Johnson wrote:
> > ... I do object to "technical definitions," as
> > you put it, of the genre, such as the one Marcus (y tu?) provides,
> > i.e., that only "regularly" indentifiable meter (whatever exactly
> that
> > means) qualifies as Poetry. Such a view is to the manifold poetic
> art
> > what Christian fundamentalism or Wahhabism is to faith. It is a view
> > so narrow and reductive one who holds it is forced, so far as I can
> > see, to classify Whitman or Vallejo or Ponge, for examples that pop
> to
> > mind, as poser-poets, mere practitioners of a "less-difficult
> prose."
> > Do you really believe that?<
> 
> Yes. And this "Do you really believe that?" tone is a good example of
> the reason it seems to me you hold that "poetry" is a term of
> evaluation, a value-laden term. Far from trying to explain the
> perplexing, you are instead trying to justify the questionable. 
> 
> > ... don't come over to *my island* and tell me
> > that you are the only kind of tortoise that matters in the world.
> Show
> > me your different and regularly patterned shell, but don't play king
> > tortoise with me, because you're just one more species among many in
> > the great chain of being.<
> 
> But that actually argues for a descriptive use of "poetry" by 
> analogy:
> 
> poetry : tortoise :: species of poetry : species of tortoise
> 
> You have to make a definition of tortoise before you can identify
> species of tortoise; and you have to make a definition of poetry
> before you can identify species of poetry. The only way this makes
> even remote sense is metaphorically -- to say that there is a
> "tortoiseness" that corresponds to "poetry", and that you can find
> "tortoiseness" in any animal as you can find "poetry" in any text.
> 
> Kent Johnson wrote:
> > We all should keep trying to figure the mystery out as best we can.
> > That's part of what we do and why we do it. Who are we and where are
> > we going, and all that? What is it we do and where is it taking us?
> > etc.<
> 
> But there's really no mystery to the distinction between poetry and
> prose. Poetry is what's in meter; prose is what is not in meter. The
> mystery is what makes GOOD poetry and GOOD prose; and what makes each
> great. You're purporting to pursue this amorphous "poetry" or
> "tortoiseness" you cannot describe or define across boundaries that
> make the pursuit ridiculous. Good prose is not poetry and good poetry
> is not prose -- what is good and bad in poetry or prose are different
> questions than whether what we have before us is poetry or prose.
> 
> > To make sweeping ideological pronouncements about what is and
> > isn't legitimate in the art is not in the spirit of what we should
> be
> > about as poets, seems to me.<
> 
> I'm pointing out the distinction between one mode of writing and
> another. It is your concern with being "legitimate" that is exactly
> the concern I pointed out before: a desire to be known as a poet
> without going to the trouble of writing in meter, of writing poetry.
> You feel acutely, it seems, an illegitimacy in the claim that non-
> meter writing is poetry. 
> 
> We have a disagreement here about whether poetry is a mode of writing
> or a term of value; I hold it's a mode of writing, you hold it's a
> term of value. You seem to see "poetry" not as a piece of writing
> different from prose but as a way to reward a piece of writing with
> praise. Your use of "poetry" is no different from the use of "poetry"
> to describe Joe Montana's drive down the field. You're using it not as
> a description of writing but metaphorically as a synonym for "good" or
> even "excellent".
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb 24 10:33:12 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:33:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
References: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net><KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net><6.0.3.0.2.20050221140704.032d3798@mail.ilstu.edu><014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1109256353.421de8a117032@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <00e601c51a8a$5a6d2ac0$5cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

"Acsyllables?"  If not for the suggestion of "accident," I'd take it. 
"Stryllables" seems pretty good to me but possibly improvable. 
"Trillables," would be nice if appropriate.

--Bob G. 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Feb 24 11:06:54 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:06:54 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent and Marcus ride over the horizon
Message-ID: <s21da75d.066@mail.highland.edu>

Marcus said,

>What is poetry's nature as you understand it to have unfolded as of 
now?

Marcus, you haven't understood: Unlike you, I don't *pretend* to
understand.

giddyup!

Kent



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 24 11:11:21 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:11:21 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
References: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net><KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net><6.0.3.0.2.20050221140704.032d3798@mail.ilstu.edu><014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1109256353.421de8a117032@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <013901c51a8b$7bc4f990$e39c9951@Robin>

Michael:

> Googling "ictus" proved quite instructive.

        SNIP

> Curiously thought-provoking, though exactly what thought I wd find hard to
put
> into words. ...

There are two columns on the term by Terry Brogan in the NPEPP.

If anyone is nice to me, I might even OCR (violating copywright) this and
post it.

Frankly, I'd trust what T.V.F.B. says before a web-search.

        R.

I mean, seriously, everyone ought to have a copy of The New Princeton
Encyclopaedia of Poetry and Poetics (ed 3) on their shelves -- doesn't cost
*that* much in paper.


        http://depts.washington.edu/versif/resources/evrg/index.html











From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb 24 11:16:50 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:16:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent and Marcus ride over the horizon
References: <s21da259.040@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <010901c51a8c$3f58e060$5cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I remain curious as to whether Marcus will ever back down from his belief 
that free verse is prose rather than some artform that is neither prose nor 
poetry.  It is certainly more different from prose than it is from verse.

--Bob G. 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 24 11:44:52 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:44:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent and Marcus ride over the horizon
In-Reply-To: <s21da75d.066@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <421DBE34.16367.9B39B9@localhost>

> Marcus said,
> >What is poetry's nature as you understand it to have unfolded as of 
> now?
 
Kent said,
> Marcus, you haven't understood: Unlike you, I don't *pretend* to
> understand.

Sure you do -- you pretend to understand in tone and manner, 
consistently; but you refuse to do more than that. You refuse to 
engage with the problem, you refuse to engage in the serious 
discussion about the problem, but you continue to insist you know 
what poetry is because you say you know poetry is not only writing in 
meter. 

Well, if you know that it's not only writing in meter, then you must 
know what else it is -- else you couldn't say what it's not only.

Speak, oracle!

Marcus






From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 24 12:03:31 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:03:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A: Philip Levine goes two for two
Message-ID: <fc.d9998e0.2f4f62e3@cs.com>

I, too, have made an effort to forget Mr. Levine's poems and have largely 
succeeded.  It's not that hard to do.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb 24 12:09:06 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:09:06 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Weldon Kees
Message-ID: <5b.642200d9.2f4f6432@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/24/2005 9:50:34 AM Central Standard Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: 
> Happy birthday, wherever you are, Weldon! 
> 
> (91 years old in Mexico, maybe. . . .) 
> 
> 
Thanks, David.  I don't much care for Beaumont, but Sam is taking pretty good 
care of me these days, cooking a lot of soft foods, etc.  I don't get out 
much anymore, but I try to keep up via the Internet.

Cheers,

Weldon
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 24 12:52:31 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:52:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
In-Reply-To: <421C5563.12594.60BFFF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20050224175231.61435.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>

yes, it depends on the context, of course, but the
exact translation of the word also alters the context,
naturlich!  how good is your German, by the way?  do
you think that the translation of such a word is
important, now?  
designerglass.com> wrote:

> On 23 Feb 2005 at 6:15, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > I'm not sure how we translate it.  I noticed that
> > Uberalles (mit umlaut) means 'everywhere' not
> overall
> > which the nearest English translation suggests.<
> 
> Of course, translations depend on context -- in one
> context you may 
> translate "uber alles" as "everywhere" and in
> another as "over all". 
> In German no less than in English words have both
> denotations and 
> connotations, and one must beware of both in each
> language in order 
> not to give readers the wrong impression. One can
> even make jokes 
> about translation. What a song that was, though, eh?
> "German, German 
> overalls!" What does "Joan d'Arc" mean? It means
> "There's no light in 
> the bathroom". 
> 
> > Can
> > you demonstrate in relation to the German language
> > exactly what Ubermensch means?<
> 
> Yes, but only in context, since words have
> denotations and 
> conotations in both the language from which and the
> language to which 
> one is translating. But if you look the word up in a
> German-English 
> dictionary you'll find that it is translated as
> "over-man" or 
> "superman" or "noble man". I don't know of a
> translation of 
> Ubermensch to "everyman" other than yours. Since
> your translation is 
> so at odds with the common one, it appears to me
> that the burden of 
> proof is on you.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> > --- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > On 23 Feb 2005 at 5:36, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > you have to remember the fragile flowers
> trampled
> > > down
> > > > by every Ubermensch but then I remembered that
> > > > Ubermensch really means everyman not superman.
>  I
> > > > found this out in the Beate Uhse Erotik-Museum
> in
> > > > Berlin....<<
> > > 
> > > Nietzsche's notion of the Ubermensch is among
> the
> > > most significant in 
> > > his thinking. An Ubermensch, as described by
> > > Zarathustra in Thus  
> > > Spoke Zarathustra, is one who is willing to risk
> all
> > > for the sake of 
> > > the improvement of humanity as he sees it needs
> > > improving -- someone  
> > > who can affect and influence the lives of
> others. In
> > > other words, an  
> > > Ubermensch has his own values, independent of
> the
> > > common values of  
> > > the everyman. An Ubermensch is someone who has a
> > > life that is not  
> > > merely mundane, with nothing in the past or
> future
> > > that is more   
> > > important than pleasure in the present, but
> rather
> > > the Ubermensch 
> > > has a purpose for humanity. "Ubermensch"
> certainly
> > > does not mean 
> > > "everyman", because at every point Nietzsche
> > > contrasts the Ubermensch 
> > > with the everyman.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________ 
> > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced
> search. Learn more.
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
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Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. 
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 24 13:05:58 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:05:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
In-Reply-To: <20050224175231.61435.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <421C5563.12594.60BFFF@localhost>
Message-ID: <421DD136.19986.E57918@localhost>

On 24 Feb 2005 at 9:52, Paul Murphy wrote:
> yes, it depends on the context, of course, but the
> exact translation of the word also alters the context,
> naturlich!  how good is your German, by the way?  do
> you think that the translation of such a word is
> important, now?  

When you assert that "Ubermensch" really means "everyman" in the 
context of celebrating a German soldier's death when Germany was 
governed by the Nazis, that seems as if it is a big stretch, now. 
>From Nietzsche to the Nazis to Now is not long enough I'd say for the 
term to have mutated from the meaning Nietzsche and the Nazis gave 
it.

Marcus






 
> > On 23 Feb 2005 at 6:15, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > I'm not sure how we translate it.  I noticed that
> > > Uberalles (mit umlaut) means 'everywhere' not
> > overall
> > > which the nearest English translation suggests.<
> > 
> > Of course, translations depend on context -- in one
> > context you may 
> > translate "uber alles" as "everywhere" and in
> > another as "over all". 
> > In German no less than in English words have both
> > denotations and 
> > connotations, and one must beware of both in each
> > language in order 
> > not to give readers the wrong impression. One can
> > even make jokes 
> > about translation. What a song that was, though, eh?
> > "German, German 
> > overalls!" What does "Joan d'Arc" mean? It means
> > "There's no light in 
> > the bathroom". 
> > 
> > > Can
> > > you demonstrate in relation to the German language
> > > exactly what Ubermensch means?<
> > 
> > Yes, but only in context, since words have
> > denotations and 
> > conotations in both the language from which and the
> > language to which 
> > one is translating. But if you look the word up in a
> > German-English 
> > dictionary you'll find that it is translated as
> > "over-man" or 
> > "superman" or "noble man". I don't know of a
> > translation of 
> > Ubermensch to "everyman" other than yours. Since
> > your translation is 
> > so at odds with the common one, it appears to me
> > that the burden of 
> > proof is on you.
> > 
> > Marcus
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > --- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On 23 Feb 2005 at 5:36, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > > you have to remember the fragile flowers
> > trampled
> > > > down
> > > > > by every Ubermensch but then I remembered that
> > > > > Ubermensch really means everyman not superman.
> >  I
> > > > > found this out in the Beate Uhse Erotik-Museum
> > in
> > > > > Berlin....<<
> > > > 
> > > > Nietzsche's notion of the Ubermensch is among
> > the
> > > > most significant in 
> > > > his thinking. An Ubermensch, as described by
> > > > Zarathustra in Thus  
> > > > Spoke Zarathustra, is one who is willing to risk
> > all
> > > > for the sake of 
> > > > the improvement of humanity as he sees it needs
> > > > improving -- someone  
> > > > who can affect and influence the lives of
> > others. In
> > > > other words, an  
> > > > Ubermensch has his own values, independent of
> > the
> > > > common values of  
> > > > the everyman. An Ubermensch is someone who has a
> > > > life that is not  
> > > > merely mundane, with nothing in the past or
> > future
> > > > that is more   
> > > > important than pleasure in the present, but
> > rather
> > > > the Ubermensch 
> > > > has a purpose for humanity. "Ubermensch"
> > certainly
> > > > does not mean 
> > > > "everyman", because at every point Nietzsche
> > > > contrasts the Ubermensch 
> > > > with the everyman.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > >
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > __________________________________ 
> > > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced
> > search. Learn more.
> > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. 
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> 





From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 24 13:24:40 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:24:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
In-Reply-To: <421DD136.19986.E57918@localhost>
Message-ID: <20050224182440.91651.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com>

the meaning has changed from Nietzsche to the Nazis to
our sometime mis-translation of 'superman' which also
brings in Marvel comics, of course.  (ie a fair amount
of Nazi ideology filtered through US mainstream
culture in an 'innocuous' way...)  I asked how your
German was?  
--- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

> On 24 Feb 2005 at 9:52, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > yes, it depends on the context, of course, but the
> > exact translation of the word also alters the
> context,
> > naturlich!  how good is your German, by the way? 
> do
> > you think that the translation of such a word is
> > important, now?  
> 
> When you assert that "Ubermensch" really means
> "everyman" in the 
> context of celebrating a German soldier's death when
> Germany was 
> governed by the Nazis, that seems as if it is a big
> stretch, now. 
> >From Nietzsche to the Nazis to Now is not long
> enough I'd say for the 
> term to have mutated from the meaning Nietzsche and
> the Nazis gave 
> it.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> > > On 23 Feb 2005 at 6:15, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > I'm not sure how we translate it.  I noticed
> that
> > > > Uberalles (mit umlaut) means 'everywhere' not
> > > overall
> > > > which the nearest English translation
> suggests.<
> > > 
> > > Of course, translations depend on context -- in
> one
> > > context you may 
> > > translate "uber alles" as "everywhere" and in
> > > another as "over all". 
> > > In German no less than in English words have
> both
> > > denotations and 
> > > connotations, and one must beware of both in
> each
> > > language in order 
> > > not to give readers the wrong impression. One
> can
> > > even make jokes 
> > > about translation. What a song that was, though,
> eh?
> > > "German, German 
> > > overalls!" What does "Joan d'Arc" mean? It means
> > > "There's no light in 
> > > the bathroom". 
> > > 
> > > > Can
> > > > you demonstrate in relation to the German
> language
> > > > exactly what Ubermensch means?<
> > > 
> > > Yes, but only in context, since words have
> > > denotations and 
> > > conotations in both the language from which and
> the
> > > language to which 
> > > one is translating. But if you look the word up
> in a
> > > German-English 
> > > dictionary you'll find that it is translated as
> > > "over-man" or 
> > > "superman" or "noble man". I don't know of a
> > > translation of 
> > > Ubermensch to "everyman" other than yours. Since
> > > your translation is 
> > > so at odds with the common one, it appears to me
> > > that the burden of 
> > > proof is on you.
> > > 
> > > Marcus
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > --- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com>
> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 23 Feb 2005 at 5:36, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > > > you have to remember the fragile flowers
> > > trampled
> > > > > down
> > > > > > by every Ubermensch but then I remembered
> that
> > > > > > Ubermensch really means everyman not
> superman.
> > >  I
> > > > > > found this out in the Beate Uhse
> Erotik-Museum
> > > in
> > > > > > Berlin....<<
> > > > > 
> > > > > Nietzsche's notion of the Ubermensch is
> among
> > > the
> > > > > most significant in 
> > > > > his thinking. An Ubermensch, as described by
> > > > > Zarathustra in Thus  
> > > > > Spoke Zarathustra, is one who is willing to
> risk
> > > all
> > > > > for the sake of 
> > > > > the improvement of humanity as he sees it
> needs
> > > > > improving -- someone  
> > > > > who can affect and influence the lives of
> > > others. In
> > > > > other words, an  
> > > > > Ubermensch has his own values, independent
> of
> > > the
> > > > > common values of  
> > > > > the everyman. An Ubermensch is someone who
> has a
> > > > > life that is not  
> > > > > merely mundane, with nothing in the past or
> > > future
> > > > > that is more   
> > > > > important than pleasure in the present, but
> > > rather
> > > > > the Ubermensch 
> > > > > has a purpose for humanity. "Ubermensch"
> > > certainly
> > > > > does not mean 
> > > > > "everyman", because at every point Nietzsche
> > > > > contrasts the Ubermensch 
> > > > > with the everyman.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > >
> > >
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > __________________________________ 
> > > > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > > > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced
> > > search. Learn more.
> > > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > >
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________ 
> > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage
> less. 
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 24 14:05:32 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:05:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Messiah of Toadstools
In-Reply-To: <20050224182440.91651.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050224190532.78962.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>

PORTRAIT OF ALEXANDER ROTH
Alexander Roth, artist, lives in a small Munich
apartment with a drug-induced drawl and tilted
sailor's hat
making vegetarian curry, drawing many lines on squares
of art quality paper or just yawning.
Insisting on ultimate decorum, immersed in self-pity,
walking and walking through the English Gardens`
sunbathing nude or playing table tennis and swimming. 
This is the portrait of Alexander Roth.  I keep
it in a tiny, rusting tin box.  I know one day
corrosion or light or oxides must destroy his vaguely
vegan-
oriented queerly sideways squint.

THE MESSIAH OF TOADSTOOLS

Everywhere mistranslations slow in coming, everywhere
A fenced in monologic, petrified, fossilised, heated,
embalmed.

I am everywhere, I am Lucifer and Jesus, I am
Nietzsche and Krishna
I am Lenin and the Tsar: for I am everywhere, a
mistranslation of 'tribe'
or 'fate' or 'quest' or 'invader', a heated homonym -
bark, there.

Shoehorn days, interminable string of invertebrates
beached on a dank shoreline, scuttling life
intensified to the pitch or key of yellow, red or
green.

I am the Messiah of Toadstools and yet unevolved,
riddlesome
shorn of respect or fear like Schopenhauer's baldness
or Kant's 
respect for orderliness or Nietzsche's fear of heights
or women.

an egg they said was unbreakable yet broken a thousand
times
dark mutterings of the Sybll intensified in my mind to
a vista or flattened perspective
surrounding an egg-shaped bay with roads made of
horn.. 



		
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 24 14:47:07 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:47:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
In-Reply-To: <20050224182440.91651.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <421DD136.19986.E57918@localhost>
Message-ID: <421DE8EB.19306.1563C3@localhost>

On 24 Feb 2005 at 10:24, Paul Murphy wrote:
> the meaning has changed from Nietzsche to the Nazis to
> our sometime mis-translation of 'superman' which also
> brings in Marvel comics, of course.  (ie a fair amount
> of Nazi ideology filtered through US mainstream
> culture in an 'innocuous' way...)  I asked how your
> German was?  <

I think Superman was DC Comics, not Marvel. The notion that two young 
Jewish kids from Cleveland were filtering Nazi ideology through US 
mainstream culture seems as far-fetched as your translation of 
"Ubermensch" as "everyman"; each instance smacks of carelessness.

My conversational German is terribly rusty. My reading German is 
tolerably rusty. Why? Do you have newspaper, magazine, and book 
clippings in German showing the use of "Ubermensch" as "everyman" 
that you want to show me?

Marcus





> --- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 24 Feb 2005 at 9:52, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > yes, it depends on the context, of course, but the
> > > exact translation of the word also alters the
> > context,
> > > naturlich!  how good is your German, by the way? 
> > do
> > > you think that the translation of such a word is
> > > important, now?  
> > 
> > When you assert that "Ubermensch" really means
> > "everyman" in the 
> > context of celebrating a German soldier's death when
> > Germany was 
> > governed by the Nazis, that seems as if it is a big
> > stretch, now. 
> > >From Nietzsche to the Nazis to Now is not long
> > enough I'd say for the 
> > term to have mutated from the meaning Nietzsche and
> > the Nazis gave 
> > it.
> > 
> > Marcus
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > > > On 23 Feb 2005 at 6:15, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > > I'm not sure how we translate it.  I noticed
> > that
> > > > > Uberalles (mit umlaut) means 'everywhere' not
> > > > overall
> > > > > which the nearest English translation
> > suggests.<
> > > > 
> > > > Of course, translations depend on context -- in
> > one
> > > > context you may 
> > > > translate "uber alles" as "everywhere" and in
> > > > another as "over all". 
> > > > In German no less than in English words have
> > both
> > > > denotations and 
> > > > connotations, and one must beware of both in
> > each
> > > > language in order 
> > > > not to give readers the wrong impression. One
> > can
> > > > even make jokes 
> > > > about translation. What a song that was, though,
> > eh?
> > > > "German, German 
> > > > overalls!" What does "Joan d'Arc" mean? It means
> > > > "There's no light in 
> > > > the bathroom". 
> > > > 
> > > > > Can
> > > > > you demonstrate in relation to the German
> > language
> > > > > exactly what Ubermensch means?<
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, but only in context, since words have
> > > > denotations and 
> > > > conotations in both the language from which and
> > the
> > > > language to which 
> > > > one is translating. But if you look the word up
> > in a
> > > > German-English 
> > > > dictionary you'll find that it is translated as
> > > > "over-man" or 
> > > > "superman" or "noble man". I don't know of a
> > > > translation of 
> > > > Ubermensch to "everyman" other than yours. Since
> > > > your translation is 
> > > > so at odds with the common one, it appears to me
> > > > that the burden of 
> > > > proof is on you.
> > > > 
> > > > Marcus
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > --- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On 23 Feb 2005 at 5:36, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > > > > you have to remember the fragile flowers
> > > > trampled
> > > > > > down
> > > > > > > by every Ubermensch but then I remembered
> > that
> > > > > > > Ubermensch really means everyman not
> > superman.
> > > >  I
> > > > > > > found this out in the Beate Uhse
> > Erotik-Museum
> > > > in
> > > > > > > Berlin....<<
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Nietzsche's notion of the Ubermensch is
> > among
> > > > the
> > > > > > most significant in 
> > > > > > his thinking. An Ubermensch, as described by
> > > > > > Zarathustra in Thus  
> > > > > > Spoke Zarathustra, is one who is willing to
> > risk
> > > > all
> > > > > > for the sake of 
> > > > > > the improvement of humanity as he sees it
> > needs
> > > > > > improving -- someone  
> > > > > > who can affect and influence the lives of
> > > > others. In
> > > > > > other words, an  
> > > > > > Ubermensch has his own values, independent
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > common values of  
> > > > > > the everyman. An Ubermensch is someone who
> > has a
> > > > > > life that is not  
> > > > > > merely mundane, with nothing in the past or
> > > > future
> > > > > > that is more   
> > > > > > important than pleasure in the present, but
> > > > rather
> > > > > > the Ubermensch 
> > > > > > has a purpose for humanity. "Ubermensch"
> > > > certainly
> > > > > > does not mean 
> > > > > > "everyman", because at every point Nietzsche
> > > > > > contrasts the Ubermensch 
> > > > > > with the everyman.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > __________________________________ 
> > > > > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > > > > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced
> > > > search. Learn more.
> > > > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> > > > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > >
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > >
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > __________________________________ 
> > > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage
> > less. 
> > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Feb 24 16:13:03 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:13:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
References: <421DD136.19986.E57918@localhost> <421DE8EB.19306.1563C3@localhost>
Message-ID: <00d601c51ab5$a132a220$bbae3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I skipped much of all the threads, but I would like to say that Uebermensch
cannot be translated with Superman or Superuomo as they did in Italian.
Ueber means above, as many already know, not auf, or _super_, German kids
use _super_ to qualify _super_ (Ach, supernett!). There is a quality in this
Ueber that escapes the idea of _super_ especially the way it is meant
nowadays.
Thus Above-man could be a start, well distant from the destination,

take care,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: "Paul Murphy" <clitophon at yahoo.com>; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry
News &amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER


> On 24 Feb 2005 at 10:24, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > the meaning has changed from Nietzsche to the Nazis to
> > our sometime mis-translation of 'superman' which also
> > brings in Marvel comics, of course.  (ie a fair amount
> > of Nazi ideology filtered through US mainstream
> > culture in an 'innocuous' way...)  I asked how your
> > German was?  <
>
> I think Superman was DC Comics, not Marvel. The notion that two young
> Jewish kids from Cleveland were filtering Nazi ideology through US
> mainstream culture seems as far-fetched as your translation of
> "Ubermensch" as "everyman"; each instance smacks of carelessness.
>
> My conversational German is terribly rusty. My reading German is
> tolerably rusty. Why? Do you have newspaper, magazine, and book
> clippings in German showing the use of "Ubermensch" as "everyman"
> that you want to show me?
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
>
> > --- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 24 Feb 2005 at 9:52, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > yes, it depends on the context, of course, but the
> > > > exact translation of the word also alters the
> > > context,
> > > > naturlich!  how good is your German, by the way?
> > > do
> > > > you think that the translation of such a word is
> > > > important, now?
> > >
> > > When you assert that "Ubermensch" really means
> > > "everyman" in the
> > > context of celebrating a German soldier's death when
> > > Germany was
> > > governed by the Nazis, that seems as if it is a big
> > > stretch, now.
> > > >From Nietzsche to the Nazis to Now is not long
> > > enough I'd say for the
> > > term to have mutated from the meaning Nietzsche and
> > > the Nazis gave
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Marcus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > On 23 Feb 2005 at 6:15, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > > > I'm not sure how we translate it.  I noticed
> > > that
> > > > > > Uberalles (mit umlaut) means 'everywhere' not
> > > > > overall
> > > > > > which the nearest English translation
> > > suggests.<
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course, translations depend on context -- in
> > > one
> > > > > context you may
> > > > > translate "uber alles" as "everywhere" and in
> > > > > another as "over all".
> > > > > In German no less than in English words have
> > > both
> > > > > denotations and
> > > > > connotations, and one must beware of both in
> > > each
> > > > > language in order
> > > > > not to give readers the wrong impression. One
> > > can
> > > > > even make jokes
> > > > > about translation. What a song that was, though,
> > > eh?
> > > > > "German, German
> > > > > overalls!" What does "Joan d'Arc" mean? It means
> > > > > "There's no light in
> > > > > the bathroom".
> > > > >
> > > > > > Can
> > > > > > you demonstrate in relation to the German
> > > language
> > > > > > exactly what Ubermensch means?<
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, but only in context, since words have
> > > > > denotations and
> > > > > conotations in both the language from which and
> > > the
> > > > > language to which
> > > > > one is translating. But if you look the word up
> > > in a
> > > > > German-English
> > > > > dictionary you'll find that it is translated as
> > > > > "over-man" or
> > > > > "superman" or "noble man". I don't know of a
> > > > > translation of
> > > > > Ubermensch to "everyman" other than yours. Since
> > > > > your translation is
> > > > > so at odds with the common one, it appears to me
> > > > > that the burden of
> > > > > proof is on you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marcus
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 23 Feb 2005 at 5:36, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > > > > > you have to remember the fragile flowers
> > > > > trampled
> > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > by every Ubermensch but then I remembered
> > > that
> > > > > > > > Ubermensch really means everyman not
> > > superman.
> > > > >  I
> > > > > > > > found this out in the Beate Uhse
> > > Erotik-Museum
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > Berlin....<<
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nietzsche's notion of the Ubermensch is
> > > among
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > most significant in
> > > > > > > his thinking. An Ubermensch, as described by
> > > > > > > Zarathustra in Thus
> > > > > > > Spoke Zarathustra, is one who is willing to
> > > risk
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > for the sake of
> > > > > > > the improvement of humanity as he sees it
> > > needs
> > > > > > > improving -- someone
> > > > > > > who can affect and influence the lives of
> > > > > others. In
> > > > > > > other words, an
> > > > > > > Ubermensch has his own values, independent
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > common values of
> > > > > > > the everyman. An Ubermensch is someone who
> > > has a
> > > > > > > life that is not
> > > > > > > merely mundane, with nothing in the past or
> > > > > future
> > > > > > > that is more
> > > > > > > important than pleasure in the present, but
> > > > > rather
> > > > > > > the Ubermensch
> > > > > > > has a purpose for humanity. "Ubermensch"
> > > > > certainly
> > > > > > > does not mean
> > > > > > > "everyman", because at every point Nietzsche
> > > > > > > contrasts the Ubermensch
> > > > > > > with the everyman.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced
> > > > > search. Learn more.
> > > > > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> > > > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New-Poetry mailing list
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> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
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> > > > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage
> > > less.
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> > >
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> >
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> > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Feb 25 02:36:11 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:36:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] synge
Message-ID: <003601c51b0c$ae22c940$dba83252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Also on this day in 1904 ...

J. M. Synge's "Riders to the Sea," opened in Dublin. It quickly
became his most famous one-act play, revered especially at home
as a poignant lament for Ireland and traditional Irish ways.
These are the closing moments, the bereaved mother, Maurya,
preparing the body of another drowned son:

     They're all together this time, and the end is come. May
     the Almighty God have mercy on Bartley's soul, and on
     Michael's soul, and on the souls of Sheamus and Patch, and
     Stephen and Shawn; and may He have mercy on my soul, Nora,
     and on the soul of every one is left living in the
     world.... Michael has a clean burial in the far north, by
     the grace of the Almighty God. Bartley will have a fine
     coffin out of the white boards, and a deep grave surely.
     What more can we want than that? No man at all can be
     living forever, and we must be satisfied.

The cottage which Synge lived in on the Aran Islands has been
recently restored, and is now a museum and study center devoted
to his works. Pictured here is a composite of the cottage in its
unrestored and present state.
http://www.todayinliterature.com/new

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From mandolin at mac.com  Fri Feb 25 09:23:33 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:23:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] metrical ontology on Galapagos
In-Reply-To: <s21cdf60.032@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s21cdf60.032@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <28e1a58828e104fd6c390f31354a0030@mac.com>


On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:53 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> See you in Chapel Hill!
>
> Kent
>
> P.S. Even though you mainly write in accentual syllabics, do you still
> drink beer?

My favorite little poem is

Cold beer
Sold here



From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Feb 25 09:28:31 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:28:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] metrical ontology on Galapagos
In-Reply-To: <28e1a58828e104fd6c390f31354a0030@mac.com>
References: <s21cdf60.032@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <421EEFBF.26257.29553B@localhost>

> On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:53 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:
> > P.S. Even though you mainly write in accentual syllabics, do you
> > still drink beer?
> 
On 25 Feb 2005 at 9:23, Michael Snider wrote:
> My favorite little poem is
> Cold beer
> Sold here

Beer 
C.S. Calverley 

In those old days which poets say were golden - 
(Perhaps they laid the gilding on themselves: 
And, if they did, I'm all the more beholden 
To those brown dwellers in my dusty shelves, 
Who talk to me 'in language quaint and olden' 
Of gods and demigods and fauns and elves, 
Pan with his pipes, and Bacchus with his leopards, 
And staid young goddesses who flirt with shepherds:) 

In those old days, the Nymph called Etiquette 
(Appalling thought to dwell on) was not born. 
They had their May, but no Mayfair as yet, 
No fashions varying as the hues of morn. 
Just as they pleased they dressed and drank and ate, 
Sang hymns to Ceres (their John Barleycorn) 
And danced unchaperoned, and laughed unchecked, 
And were no doubt extremely incorrect. 

Yet I do think their theory was pleasant: 
And oft, I own, my 'wayward fancy roams' 
Back to those times, so different from the present; 
When no one smoked cigars, nor gave At-homes, 
Nor smote a billiard-ball, nor winged a pheasant, 
Nor 'did' her hair by means of long-tailed combs, 
Nor migrated to Brighton once a year, 
Nor - most astonishing of all - drank Beer. 

No, they did not drink Beer, 'which brings me to' 
(As Gilpin said) 'the middle of my song'. 
Not that 'the middle' is precisely true, 
Or else I should not tax your patience long: 
If I had said 'beginning' it might do; 
But I have a dislike to quoting wrong: 
I was unlucky - sinned against, not sinning - 
When Cowper wrote down 'middle' for 'beginning'. 

So to proceed. That abstinence from Malt 
Has always struck me as extremely curious. 
The Greek mind must have had some vital fault, 
That they should stick to liquors so injurious - 
(Wine, water, tempered p'raps with Attic salt) - 
And not at once invent that mild, luxurious, 
And artful beverage, Beer. How the digestion 
Got on without it, is a startling question. 

Had they digestions? and an actual body 
Such as dyspepsia might make attacks on? 
Were they abstract ideas - (like Tom Noddy 
And Mr Briggs) - or men, like Jones and Jackson? 
Then nectar - was that beer, or whisky-toddy? 
Some say the Gaelic mixture, I the Saxon: 
I think a strict adherence to the latter 
Might make some Scots less pigheaded, and fatter. 

Besides, Bon Gaultier definitely shows 
That the real beverage for feasting gods on 
Is a soft compound, grateful to the nose 
And also to the palate, known as 'Hodgson'. 
I know a man - a tailor's son - who rose 
To be a peer: and this I would lay odds on, 
(Though in his memoirs it may not appear,) 
That that man owed his rise to copious Beer. 

O Beer! O Hodgson, Guinness, Allsopp, Bass! 
Names that should be on every infant's tongue! 
Shall days and months and years and centuries pass, 
And still your merits be unrecked, unsung? 
Oh! I have gazed into my foaming glass, 
And wished that lyre could yet again be strung 
Which once rang prophet-like though Greece, and taught her 
Misguided sons that the best drink was water. 

How would he now recant that wild opinion, 
And sing - as would that I could sing - of you! 
I was not born (alas!) the 'Muses' minion', 
I'm not poetical, not even blue: 
And he, we know, but strives with waxen pinion, 
Who'er he is that entertains the view 
Of emulating Pindar, and will be 
Sponsor at last to some now nameless sea. 

Oh, when the green slopes of Arcadia burned 
With all the lustre of the dying day, 
And on Cithaeron's brow the reaper turned, 
(Humming, of course, in his delightful way, 
How Lycidas was dead, and how concerned 
The Nymphs were when they saw his lifeless clay; 
And how rock told to rock the dreadful story 
That poor young Lycidas was gone to glory:) 

What would that lone and labouring soul have given, 
At that soft moment for a pewter pot! 
How had the mists that dimmed his eye been riven, 
And Lycidas and sorrow all forgot! 
If his own grandmother had died unshriven, 
In two short seconds he'd have recked it not; 
Such power hath Beer. The heart which Grief hath canker'd 
Hath one unfailing remedy - the Tankard. 

Coffee is good, and so no doubt is cocoa; 
Tea did for Johnson and the Chinamen: 
When 'Dulce est desipere in loco' 
Was written, real Falernian winged the pen. 
When a rapt audience has encored 'Fra Poco' 
Or 'Casta Diva', I have heard that then 
The Prima Donna, smiling herself out, 
Recruits her flagging powers with bottled stout. 

But what is coffee, but a noxious berry, 
Born to keep used-up Londoners awake? 
What is Falernian, what is Port or Sherry, 
But vile concoctions to make dull heads ache? 
Nay stout itself - (though good with oysters, very) - 
Is not a thing your reading man should take. 
He that would shine, and petrify his tutor, 
Should drink draught Allsopp in its 'native pewter'. 

But hark! a sound is stealing on my ear - 
A soft and silvery sound - I know it well. 
Its tinkling tells me that a time is near 
Precious to me - it is the Dinner Bell. 
O blessed Bell! Thou bringest beef and beer, 
Thou bringest good things more than tongue may tell: 
Seared is, of course, my heart - but unsubdued 
Is, and shall be, my appetite for food. 

I go. Untaught and feeble is my pen: 
But on one statement I may safely venture: 
That few of our most highly gifted men 
Have more appreciation of the trencher. 
I go. One pound of British beef, and then 
What Mr Swiveller called a 'modest quencher'; 
That home-returning, I may 'soothly say' 
'Fate cannot touch me: I have dined today.' 







From clitophon at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 25 10:19:47 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:19:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] SKETCH OF A DICTATOR'S MOTHER
In-Reply-To: <421DE8EB.19306.1563C3@localhost>
Message-ID: <20050225151947.23042.qmail@web40421.mail.yahoo.com>

well, there is a sense in those superhero comics of
the UEBERMENSCH but one who is often a wimp gainign
special powers on the way. I suppose it appealed to
wimps everwhere....
--- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

> On 24 Feb 2005 at 10:24, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > the meaning has changed from Nietzsche to the
> Nazis to
> > our sometime mis-translation of 'superman' which
> also
> > brings in Marvel comics, of course.  (ie a fair
> amount
> > of Nazi ideology filtered through US mainstream
> > culture in an 'innocuous' way...)  I asked how
> your
> > German was?  <
> 
> I think Superman was DC Comics, not Marvel. The
> notion that two young 
> Jewish kids from Cleveland were filtering Nazi
> ideology through US 
> mainstream culture seems as far-fetched as your
> translation of 
> "Ubermensch" as "everyman"; each instance smacks of
> carelessness.
> 
> My conversational German is terribly rusty. My
> reading German is 
> tolerably rusty. Why? Do you have newspaper,
> magazine, and book 
> clippings in German showing the use of "Ubermensch"
> as "everyman" 
> that you want to show me?
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > --- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > On 24 Feb 2005 at 9:52, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > yes, it depends on the context, of course, but
> the
> > > > exact translation of the word also alters the
> > > context,
> > > > naturlich!  how good is your German, by the
> way? 
> > > do
> > > > you think that the translation of such a word
> is
> > > > important, now?  
> > > 
> > > When you assert that "Ubermensch" really means
> > > "everyman" in the 
> > > context of celebrating a German soldier's death
> when
> > > Germany was 
> > > governed by the Nazis, that seems as if it is a
> big
> > > stretch, now. 
> > > >From Nietzsche to the Nazis to Now is not long
> > > enough I'd say for the 
> > > term to have mutated from the meaning Nietzsche
> and
> > > the Nazis gave 
> > > it.
> > > 
> > > Marcus
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > > > On 23 Feb 2005 at 6:15, Paul Murphy wrote:
> > > > > > I'm not sure how we translate it.  I
> noticed
> > > that
> > > > > > Uberalles (mit umlaut) means 'everywhere'
> not
> > > > > overall
> > > > > > which the nearest English translation
> > > suggests.<
> > > > > 
> > > > > Of course, translations depend on context --
> in
> > > one
> > > > > context you may 
> > > > > translate "uber alles" as "everywhere" and
> in
> > > > > another as "over all". 
> > > > > In German no less than in English words have
> > > both
> > > > > denotations and 
> > > > > connotations, and one must beware of both in
> > > each
> > > > > language in order 
> > > > > not to give readers the wrong impression.
> One
> > > can
> > > > > even make jokes 
> > > > > about translation. What a song that was,
> though,
> > > eh?
> > > > > "German, German 
> > > > > overalls!" What does "Joan d'Arc" mean? It
> means
> > > > > "There's no light in 
> > > > > the bathroom". 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Can
> > > > > > you demonstrate in relation to the German
> > > language
> > > > > > exactly what Ubermensch means?<
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes, but only in context, since words have
> > > > > denotations and 
> > > > > conotations in both the language from which
> and
> > > the
> > > > > language to which 
> > > > > one is translating. But if you look the word
> up
> > > in a
> > > > > German-English 
> > > > > dictionary you'll find that it is translated
> as
> > > > > "over-man" or 
> > > > > "superman" or "noble man". I don't know of a
> > > > > translation of 
> > > > > Ubermensch to "everyman" other than yours.
> Since
> > > > > your translation is 
> > > > > so at odds with the common one, it appears
> to me
> > > > > that the burden of 
> > > > > proof is on you.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Marcus
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > --- Marcus Bales
> <marcus at designerglass.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > On 23 Feb 2005 at 5:36, Paul Murphy
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > you have to remember the fragile
> flowers
> > > > > trampled
> > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > by every Ubermensch but then I
> remembered
> > > that
> > > > > > > > Ubermensch really means everyman not
> > > superman.
> > > > >  I
> > > > > > > > found this out in the Beate Uhse
> > > Erotik-Museum
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > Berlin....<<
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Nietzsche's notion of the Ubermensch is
> > > among
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > most significant in 
> > > > > > > his thinking. An Ubermensch, as
> described by
> > > > > > > Zarathustra in Thus  
> > > > > > > Spoke Zarathustra, is one who is willing
> to
> > > risk
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > for the sake of 
> > > > > > > the improvement of humanity as he sees
> it
> > > needs
> > > > > > > improving -- someone  
> > > > > > > who can affect and influence the lives
> of
> > > > > others. In
> > > > > > > other words, an  
> > > > > > > Ubermensch has his own values,
> independent
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > common values of  
> > > > > > > the everyman. An Ubermensch is someone
> who
> > > has a
> > > > > > > life that is not  
> > > > > > > merely mundane, with nothing in the past
> or
> > > > > future
> > > > > > > that is more   
> > > > > > > important than pleasure in the present,
> but
> > > > > rather
> > > > > > > the Ubermensch 
> > > > > > > has a purpose for humanity. "Ubermensch"
> > > > > certainly
> > > > > > > does not mean 
> 
=== message truncated ===



		
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb 25 11:12:47 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:12:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] metrical ontology on Galapagos
References: <s21cdf60.032@mail.highland.edu>
	<28e1a58828e104fd6c390f31354a0030@mac.com>
Message-ID: <014801c51b54$d94b22f0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>
> On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:53 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:
>
>> See you in Chapel Hill!
>>
>> Kent
>>
>> P.S. Even though you mainly write in accentual syllabics, do you still
>> drink beer?
>
> My favorite little poem is
>
> Cold beer
> Sold here

Now I wouldn't call this a poem--because it's what I call informrature, not 
literature.

Prof. BG 




From vireo.nefer at gmail.com  Fri Feb 25 13:01:27 2005
From: vireo.nefer at gmail.com (Vireo Nefer)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:01:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] an alphabet poem
Message-ID: <464e4688050225100128c69ae0@mail.gmail.com>

A brutal cacphony descended euphoniously
faux garnets huffed ignomiously just kilometers less melodiously near
opulent pulsars
queasily roaming slagheaps tottering under virulently weak
X-chromosomes yodeling zymurgy.

copyleft, right, up, down, and kitty-corner
Denise
or
Vireo
-- 
AIM: vireonefer
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=vireoibis
VireoNyx Publications: http://www.vireonyxpub.org
INK: http://www.inkemetic.org


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb 25 20:38:22 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:38:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
References: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net><KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net><6.0.3.0.2.20050221140704.032d3798@mail.ilstu.edu><014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1109256353.421de8a117032@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <025001c51ba3$dfa419a0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I suspect you and I are the only ones left in this thread, Michael--unless 
Kent's still there.  Oh, Robin will be, too, I'm sure.  Anyway, here's my 
latest candidate for an American version of "ictus": "emphasyll."  Yeah, 
sounds like a medicine.  But I think I use "syl" or syll" for some other 
related word.  Can't remember what.

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Feb 26 08:47:30 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:47:30 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ralph Waldo Emerson - PoemHunter
Message-ID: <001f01c51c09$b7942570$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Give All To Love 

Give all to love; 
Obey thy heart; 
Friends, kindred, days, 
Estate, good-fame, 
Plans, credit, and the Muse,- 
Nothing refuse. 
'Tis a brave master; 
Let it have scope: 
Follow it utterly, 
Hope beyond hope: 
High and more high 
It dives into noon, 
With wing unspent, 
Untold intent; 
But it is a god, 
Knows its own path, 
And the outlets of the sky. 
It was not for the mean; 
It requireth courage stout, 
Souls above doubt, 
Valor unbending; 
It will reward,- 
They shall return 
More than they were, 
And ever ascending. 
Leave all for love; 
Yet, hear me, yet, 
One word more thy heart behoved, 
One pulse more of firm endeavor,- 
Keep thee today, 
To-morrow, forever, 
Free as an Arab 
Of thy beloved. 
Cling with life to the maid; 
But when the surprise, 
First vague shadow of surmise 
Flits across her bosom young 
Of a joy apart from thee, 
Free be she, fancy-free; 
Nor thou detain her vesture's hem, 
Nor the palest rose she flung 
>From her summer diadem. 

Ralph Waldo Emerson 


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From webmaster at newhampshirereview.com  Sat Feb 26 09:29:24 2005
From: webmaster at newhampshirereview.com (Webmaster, New Hampshire Review)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 09:29:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Submissions - 2nd Announcement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0502240918480.22856@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <003101c51c0f$9278bac0$6601a8c0@piiie500>

Call for Submissions
 
The New Hampshire Review is seeking poets, artists, political essayists,
and book reviewers to help launch our new quarterly journal of poetry
and politics. 
 
Our guidelines are available at: 
www.newhampshirereview.com/submission_guidelines.htm
 
We invite poets and publishers who would like their books to be
considered for review to send materials to the Review Editor at P.O. Box
322, Nashua, NH 03061-0322. 
 
If you would like to be notified by email when the first issue is
available, please join our mailing list at: 
www.newhampshirereview.com/mailinglist.htm
 
We look forward to receiving your submissions! 
 
The New Hampshire Review 
P.O. Box 322 
Nashua, NH 03061-0322 
www.newhampshirereview.com <http://www.newhampshirereview.com/> 
 
 
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
 
The New Hampshire Review is a new quarterly journal of poetry and
politics founded by Virginia M. Heatter and Seth D. Abramson in Nashua,
New Hampshire.  
 
Although our state boasts such luminaries as Robert Frost, Edwin
Arlington Robinson, Donald Hall, Jane Kenyon, Charles Simic, and Maxine
Kumin, we currently lack a high-profile literary review.  By combining
our experiences as writers and editors, we hope to present an
outstanding quarterly journal to readers both here in the U.S. and
abroad.
 
In each issue, we plan to feature established writers alongside those of
exceptional talent who are less well-known.  We also plan to feature
timely political essays, which will offer a progressive view of the
issues and events which shape our times.  Finally, we will take
advantage of our format to showcase the work of extraordinary
practitioners of the visual arts.
                                                
As editors we are readers first. Our aim is not to advance any one
theory or poetic school, but to present remarkable poems which will
interest and affect a diverse audience.  As poets whose personal
aesthetics diverge as often as they intersect, we feel uniquely suited
to the task of selecting such a broad range of work.  
 
Though we are launching The New Hampshire Review as an online
publication, we will be working hard to secure the funds necessary to
take the journal into print within two years.  We are deeply committed
to this project?s success.  It is a life?s work, and we look forward to
both its joys and challenges with great anticipation.
 
About the Editors:  The New Hampshire Review?s Editor-in-Chief, Virginia
Heatter, abandoned the corporate sphere to pursue her passion for
literature full-time.  She has studied at Drew University, Cornell
University and Boston College.  Seth Abramson, Poetry & Politics Editor,
is a graduate of Dartmouth College and Harvard Law School.  His work has
recently appeared in The Antioch Review, Gettysburg Review, Pleiades,
Alaska Quarterly Review, and Harvard Review. Jeffery Bahr, Contributing
Editor, is the former Managing Editor of The Alsop Review.  His work has
been published or is forthcoming in The Iowa Review, Pleiades, Alaska
Quarterly Review, Indiana Review, Chelsea, and Barrow Street.
Contributing Editor R.J. McCaffery?s collections of poetry include
Anchor Ice (2003), The Hymnal Wheel (2002), and Chaos Theory and the
Knuckleballer (2000).  The former Editor of Eye Dialect and a graduate
of the M.F.A. program at Sarah Lawrence College, his work has appeared
in Ploughshares, New Books, The Atlanta Review, and the online edition
of The Norton Anthology of Literature. 
 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 26 12:40:43 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:40:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sea Surface Full of Clouds, radiophonic reading
Message-ID: <19d.2f0329a7.2f520e9b@aol.com>

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/sunnightrn/
Listen on Real Audio
Sunday 13 February 2005

Sea Surface Full of Clouds
A radiophonic reading of Wallace Steven?s poem ?Sea Surface Full of Clouds?, 
following a journey by the poet and his wife in the 1920s along the Mexican 
coast to California.
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Sat Feb 26 13:17:22 2005
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:17:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Submissions - 2nd Announcement
In-Reply-To: <003101c51c0f$9278bac0$6601a8c0@piiie500>
References: <003101c51c0f$9278bac0$6601a8c0@piiie500>
Message-ID: <20050226131656.R13555@kpaul.spinweb.net>

quick question if you don't mind - do you consider having the poem online 
as published?

thx,
kpaul

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005, Webmaster, New Hampshire Review wrote:

> Call for Submissions
>
> The New Hampshire Review is seeking poets, artists, political essayists,
> and book reviewers to help launch our new quarterly journal of poetry
> and politics.
>
> Our guidelines are available at:
> www.newhampshirereview.com/submission_guidelines.htm
>
> We invite poets and publishers who would like their books to be
> considered for review to send materials to the Review Editor at P.O. Box
> 322, Nashua, NH 03061-0322.
>
> If you would like to be notified by email when the first issue is
> available, please join our mailing list at:
> www.newhampshirereview.com/mailinglist.htm
>
> We look forward to receiving your submissions!
>
> The New Hampshire Review
> P.O. Box 322
> Nashua, NH 03061-0322
> www.newhampshirereview.com <http://www.newhampshirereview.com/>
>
>
> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
>
> The New Hampshire Review is a new quarterly journal of poetry and
> politics founded by Virginia M. Heatter and Seth D. Abramson in Nashua,
> New Hampshire.
>
> Although our state boasts such luminaries as Robert Frost, Edwin
> Arlington Robinson, Donald Hall, Jane Kenyon, Charles Simic, and Maxine
> Kumin, we currently lack a high-profile literary review.  By combining
> our experiences as writers and editors, we hope to present an
> outstanding quarterly journal to readers both here in the U.S. and
> abroad.
>
> In each issue, we plan to feature established writers alongside those of
> exceptional talent who are less well-known.  We also plan to feature
> timely political essays, which will offer a progressive view of the
> issues and events which shape our times.  Finally, we will take
> advantage of our format to showcase the work of extraordinary
> practitioners of the visual arts.
>
> As editors we are readers first. Our aim is not to advance any one
> theory or poetic school, but to present remarkable poems which will
> interest and affect a diverse audience.  As poets whose personal
> aesthetics diverge as often as they intersect, we feel uniquely suited
> to the task of selecting such a broad range of work.
>
> Though we are launching The New Hampshire Review as an online
> publication, we will be working hard to secure the funds necessary to
> take the journal into print within two years.  We are deeply committed
> to this project?s success.  It is a life?s work, and we look forward to
> both its joys and challenges with great anticipation.
>
> About the Editors:  The New Hampshire Review?s Editor-in-Chief, Virginia
> Heatter, abandoned the corporate sphere to pursue her passion for
> literature full-time.  She has studied at Drew University, Cornell
> University and Boston College.  Seth Abramson, Poetry & Politics Editor,
> is a graduate of Dartmouth College and Harvard Law School.  His work has
> recently appeared in The Antioch Review, Gettysburg Review, Pleiades,
> Alaska Quarterly Review, and Harvard Review. Jeffery Bahr, Contributing
> Editor, is the former Managing Editor of The Alsop Review.  His work has
> been published or is forthcoming in The Iowa Review, Pleiades, Alaska
> Quarterly Review, Indiana Review, Chelsea, and Barrow Street.
> Contributing Editor R.J. McCaffery?s collections of poetry include
> Anchor Ice (2003), The Hymnal Wheel (2002), and Chaos Theory and the
> Knuckleballer (2000).  The former Editor of Eye Dialect and a graduate
> of the M.F.A. program at Sarah Lawrence College, his work has appeared
> in Ploughshares, New Books, The Atlanta Review, and the online edition
> of The Norton Anthology of Literature.
>
>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 26 13:36:38 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:36:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] DRUNKEN BOAT,
	Special Double Issue #7 - Aphasia and the Arts, W...
Message-ID: <148.3f3ed5f8.2f521bb6@aol.com>

Subj: DRUNKEN BOAT announces Special Double Issue #7 - Aphasia and the Arts, 
William Meredith, and First Annual Panliterary Awards   
Date: 2/22/2005 8:16:12 AM Eastern Standard Time 
From: ShankarR at mail.ccsu.edu 
To: ed at drunkenboat.com 
Sent from the Internet (Details) 

Drunken Boat <http://www.drunkenboat.com>, international online journal for
the arts, announces a special double issue on Aphasia and the Arts and
William Meredith! 

With PHOTOS from Sol Lewitt, Ellen Driscoll, Elisabeth Subrin, Brian Berman
and Cecilia Schmidt

With POETRY from Paul Amlehn, Sally Ball, Dan Beachy-Quick, Elizabeth Block,
Iain Britton, Julie Buchsbaum, Christophe Casamassima, Vernon Frazer, Piotr
Gwiazda, Richard Harteis, Gwyneth Lewis, Nancy Kuhl, Kate Light, Evelyn
Posamentier, Alexis Quinlan, Ken Rumble, Charles Rafferty, Mary Ann Samyn,
Jesse Schweppe, Chris Semansky, Vijay Seshadri, Ron Silliman, Laurel Snyder,
Tony Tost, Dan Waber & Dave Grey, Susan Wheeler, Gautam Verma

With SOUND from  Ros Bandt, Joseph Chaikin, Jan Curtis, Merlin Coleman,
Stefano Giannotti, Abinadi Meza, Patrick Simons, and Stephen Vitello

With PROSE from Ann Barnes, Gayle Brandeis, Kate Hill Cantrill, Marc
Froment-Meurice, Tom Hazuka, Jerome Kaplan, Naomi Leimsider, Cris Mazza,
Elinore Mazza, Christina McPhee, John Phillips, Leland Pitts-Gonzalez,
Arthur Saltzman, Gregory Spatz, and Frederick Zackel

With WEB ART from Peter Horvath, Deena Larson, Jhave Johnston, Michael
Knaven, Prema Murthy, Mendi & Keith Obadike, Antoine Schmitt and Tamar
Schori

With TRANSLATIONS of Salvatore Quasimodo by Wayne Chambliss, Thanh Thao by
Linh Dinh, Turkish Sufi poets by Jennifer Ferraro and Latif Bolat, Paul
Val?ry by Christopher Mulrooney, and Jean Michel Espitallier, Jacques
Roubaud, Jacques Jouet and Anita Konkka by Jean-Jacques Poucel

With VIDEO from Angela Alston & Ezekiel Das, Nicolas Barri?, Cesar Pesquera,
Catherine Ross, Alan Sondheim, and Larry Weinstein

FEATURING a special folio on APHASIA and THE ARTS and a retrospective on
WILLIAM MEREDITH including video, photos, etchings and never-before seen
letters and rare manuscripts

and ANNOUNCING Drunken Boat's FIRST ANNUAL PANLITERARY AWARDS - details on
website! 

<http://www.drunkenboat.com>



*************** 
Ravi Shankar 
Poet-in-Residence 
Assistant Professor
CCSU - English Dept.
860-832-2766 
shankarr at ccsu.edu
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Feb 26 16:28:23 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:28:23 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narcissus
Message-ID: <001301c51c4a$1a6a2a10$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I know that I can be utterly boring, but:


There is an excellent picture, among the many, _Narcissus_ on Anita Rust's blog.
Click on Anita Rust, cheers, Anny
. 

--
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Feb 26 16:41:25 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:41:25 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen
Message-ID: <002601c51c4b$ec5d4e70$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

New works by Jukka Pekka Kervinen,

and don't miss his moving poem(s), scroll down and click:
http://nonlinearpoetry.blogspot.com/



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From debra at debradicembre.com  Sat Feb 26 17:17:50 2005
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:17:50 +1100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen
References: <002601c51c4b$ec5d4e70$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <001201c51c51$040c70a0$0301010a@galaxy>

Wow! This is fantastic. 
What a concept.
Thanks for the lead.

DD
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 8:41 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen


  New works by Jukka Pekka Kervinen,

  and don't miss his moving poem(s), scroll down and click:
  http://nonlinearpoetry.blogspot.com/



  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
  Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Feb 26 17:34:16 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:34:16 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen
References: <002601c51c4b$ec5d4e70$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<001201c51c51$040c70a0$0301010a@galaxy>
Message-ID: <006501c51c53$4e49cd50$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

thanks Debra, I would like to add that Jenny Holzer is the lead, way back about 15 years ago at the Biennale in Venice there was this dark room with words and letters running around the walls, outside letters etched in marble benches. Jukka-Pekka Kervinen has the merit of being creative, this time with words moving on the screen.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Debra Dicembre 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 11:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen


  Wow! This is fantastic. 
  What a concept.
  Thanks for the lead.

  DD
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: New Poetry 
    Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 8:41 AM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen


    New works by Jukka Pekka Kervinen,

    and don't miss his moving poem(s), scroll down and click:
    http://nonlinearpoetry.blogspot.com/



    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
    Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky




----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad at opus40.org  Sat Feb 26 18:53:19 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:53:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narcissus
References: <001301c51c4a$1a6a2a10$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <001d01c51c5e$5c2f6280$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 4:28 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Narcissus


  I know that I can be utterly boring, but:
   Anny - when? If there was ever an occasion, I must have missed it.




   
  There is an excellent picture, among the many, _Narcissus_ on Anita Rust's blog.
  Click on Anita Rust, cheers, Anny
  . 

  --



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb 26 20:23:59 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 20:23:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen
References: <002601c51c4b$ec5d4e70$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06><001201c51c51$040c70a0$0301010a@galaxy>
	<006501c51c53$4e49cd50$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <01a201c51c6b$03e031b0$6db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  thanks Debra, I would like to add that Jenny Holzer is the lead, way back about 15 years ago at the Biennale in Venice there was this dark room with words and letters running around the walls, outside letters etched in marble benches. Jukka-Pekka Kervinen has the merit of being creative, this time with words moving on the screen.

  Sorry to be contradictory yet again, but Jenny Holzer was not in the lead, or close to it.  Richard Kostelanetz and Ian Hamilton Finlay, for two, were doing her stuff much better than she ever did it at least ten years before the Venice thing, for which she got about as much money as all the good American visual poets of the time have ever gotten, combined, for their art.  Yes, sour grapes--but I thought her work crap before Venice.  She rose to fame through pedestrian leftist slogans printed on billboards. Kervinen, whom I've mentioned in my blog, is vastly superior as an artist in every possible way to her.

  --Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 26 22:09:18 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:09:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Announcing Jacket 26"
Message-ID: <f7.4b07d25e.2f5293de@aol.com>

Subject: "Announcing Jacket 26"

"Announcing Jacket 26"

http://jacketmagazine.com/26/index.html

Editor: John Tranter,
? ?? Associate Editor: Pam Brown

* Jack Beeching
? ?? * Robert Duncan
? ? ? ? ? * Landis Everson
? ? ? ? ? ? ?? * Tom Raworth
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? * Norwegian Audio
* Etc

F e a t u r e : J a c k?? B e e c h i n g

-- Jack Beeching: Five poems
-- Bill Luckin and Barry Wood:
? ?? Poet as Expatriate: Jack Beeching, 1922-2001
-- David Kennedy: Alum Raptures --
? ?? in memoriam Jack Beeching 1922-2001

R o b e r t?? D u n c a n

-- Lisa Jarnot's biography:
? ?? The Young Robert Duncan -- a 20-page excerpt
-- Robert Duncan in conversation with
? ?? John Tranter, San Francisco, 1985
-- Robert Duncan: A metaphysical quotient --
? ?? Michael Davidson in conversation with John Tranter,
? ?? recorded in 1989, with a postscript, 2005
-- Stephen Collis: A Duncan Etude:
? ?? Dante and Responsibility
-- Dale Smith: Here I Go - 1999-2002
-- Peter Gizzi: Often I am Allowed These Messages
-- Gabriel Gudding:
? ?? Poem About My Strabismus, for Robert Duncan
-- Jeff Hamilton: Wrath Moves In the Music:
? ?? Robert Duncan, Laura Riding, Craft and Force
? ?? in Cold War Poetics (30 pages)
-- John Latta: Two poems:
? ?? To Robert Duncan, A Notebook of First Permission
-- Maureen N. McLane: years/ catches for robert duncan

L a n d i s?? E v e r s o n

-- Landis Everson: Six poems from 1960
-- Landis Everson: Five New Poems
-- Landis Everson, interviewed by Kevin Killian in 2004
-- Kevin Killian: Fulcrum number three,
? ?? with commentary on Landis Everson
-- Thirteen photographs of Landis Everson

A b o u t?? T o m?? R a w o r t h

-- Introduction
-- Bruce Andrews: Dang Me
-- Charles Bernstein:
? ?? This Poem Intentionally Left Blank
-- Nicole Brossard: Prose poem
-- Clint Burnham: Three sonnets
-- Richard Caddel:
? ?? Little Winter Suite: For Tom Raworth
-- Graca Capinha -- a comet (after Tom Raworth)
-- Andrew Carrigan: Firmament
-- Miles Champion: poem ('stuffed chair...')
-- Cris Cheek: poem
-- Claudio Cometta: A Tom, albero raro
-- William Corbett: On West Broadway
-- Michael Davidson: Vacant Weather
-- Ken Edwards: from Glory Boxes
-- William R. Fuller: A Sailor's Life
-- Anselm Hollo: from Guests Of Space
-- =C1rni Ibsen: In a Different Language Zone
-- Trevor Joyce: Dark Senses Parallel Streets
-- Robert Kelly: For Raworth,
? ?? A translation from Middle High Cat
-- Esther Roth: A Simple Melody for Tom
-- Keith Tuma: till mute attention
? ?? Struck my listning Ear'

T r a n s l a t e? ? O'H a r a ??? T h i s? /

?? N o r w e g i a n? ? W o u l d . . .

-- Frank O'Hara: 'Den dagen Lady d=F8de' -- vocals and Norwegian translat=
ion=20
of 'The Day Lady Died' by Jan Erik Vold: text, MP3 and RealAudio tracks o=
f=20
the 1986 reading by Jan Erik Vold of 'Den dagen Lady d=F8de', with Red=20
Mitchell's jazz accompaniment

A r t i c l e s?? a n d?? R e v i e w s

-- Caroline Bergvall: Fiona Templeton's Cells of Release

? ?? For six weeks, in 1995, the poet and performer Fiona Templeton locke=
d=20
herself up in the lugubrious corridors of the abandoned Eastern Penitenti=
ary=20
of Philadelphia to write. Why would she do this? Why would one do this? B=
ut=20
this she did, "over six weeks", writing by hand with an indelible marker,=
no=20
return no edit, "I wrote without the possibility of erasure", on one long=
=20
string of paper, "where a spool of paper ran out, I sewed on the next one=
",=20
guiding it through one prison cell per day, and for as long as it would t=
ake=20
to work through the thirty-eight cells that make up this one corridor of =
the=20
dreadful panopticon.

-- Ken Bolton:
? ?? The Poetry of John Forbes: An Introduction
-- Robert Bond: No Traveller Returns, by Vahni Capildeo
-- Mark DuCharme: Extremes and Balances by Jack Collom
-- Jim Feast: The Holy Grail: Charles Bukowski [etc.] by A.D. Winans
? ? ? ? ? "...Freud must select a schema from a foreign discipline,
? ? ? ? ? while Winans has to compose his (stealth) autobiography
? ? ? ? ? around not his own but another man's life."
-- John Hawke: In the Year of Our Lord
? ?? Slaughter's Children, by Philip Hammial
-- David Kennedy -- British Poetry Never Was;
? ?? or, Some Observations of Andrew Duncan's
? ?? 'The Failure of Conservatism in
? ?? Modern British Poetry'
-- Kevin Killian: Fulcrum number three,
? ?? with commentary on Landis Everson
-- No: Ben Lerner in conversation with Kent Johnson
-- Deborah Meadows: The Poetics of Drifting Devotions:
? ?? The poetry of Reina Mar=EDa Rodr=EDguez
-- Meredith Quartermain: Discrete Categories ----
? ?? Forced into Coupling by Kathleen Fraser
-- Tad Richards: Calendars, by Annie Finch
-- Francis Raven: Dancing in Odessa, by Ilya Kaminsky

-- Peter Riley: W.S. Graham, New Collected Poems, edited by Matthew Franc=
is:

? ?? "...It had by 1940 become a clearly identified position in poetry,=20
increasingly seen as an extremist one, as the far left in a dichotomising=
=20
politics of poetry which ran through the later 1940s, and it was so=20
incessantly and viciously attacked in poetical journalism that by the 195=
0s=20
it seemed to cave in under the pressure. But in the first years of the 19=
40s=20
it was a flourishing concern and Graham leaped wholeheartedly into it wit=
h=20
no holds barred... "

-- Shivaji Sengupta: After Taxes by Thomas Fink
-- Laura Sims: the false sun recordings by James Wagner
-- Eileen Tabios: four poetry books by Basil King
-- Michael Thornhill: Conversations: Walter Murch and the Art
? ?? of Editing Film, by Michael Ondaatje.

? ? ? -- 'What are you up to these days?'
? ? ? -- 'I'm doing Orson Welles's cut of Touch of Evil.'
? ? ? -- 'You're not doing anything, I hope,
? ? ? ? ? ? ?? to the beginning of the film.'
? ? ? -- 'That's the first thing I'm changing.'

-- Tony Towle: The Escape, by Jo Ann Wasserman

P o e m s

-- Francisco Arag=F3n: Three poems
-- Louis Armand: Port Lights Shadows & Particles
-- Iain Britton: Two poems: -- Scenes of Stanley
? ?? Spencer cooking; -- Night-time activity
-- Liam Ferney: jurisprudence
-- Alec Finlay (and others):
? ?? 'The Hidden Gardens' -- Hyakuin renga
-- John Hennessy: New Corinthian -- Letter to Paul
-- Kent Johnson: 'Even though he's known
? ?? as a Language poet, I want to write
? ?? like Norman Fischer'
-- Aaron McCollough: Two prose poems
-- Stephen Ratcliffe: poems from CLOUD / RIDGE
-- Michael Palmer: Dream of a Language that Speaks


... and of course you may peek at Jacket 27 as it is being compiled page =
by=20
page, gathered by Associate Editor Pam Brown:

http://jacketmagazine.com/27/index.html
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb 27 04:24:24 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:24:24 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen
References: <002601c51c4b$ec5d4e70$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06><001201c51c51$040c70a0$0301010a@galaxy><006501c51c53$4e49cd50$4f8e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<01a201c51c6b$03e031b0$6db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <003801c51cae$20f15020$72c93a52@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I know you are sorry, and I thank you for Kostelanetz and Hamilton Finlay, yet that exhibit at the Biennale (the work mainly of specialized technicians) was excellent, and I do know of her sprayed messages all around New York for years before she was able to become the J. Holzer we know. I love Kervinen and I hope that my note at the end didn't sound as if I wanted to diminish him, the reference was to the technique of the words going back and forth, not to the quality of the inventiveness our chosen author always exhibits together with many other qualities. I also feature him on the Poets' Corner, and I am so proud of what he sent over.

And to Tad Richards, _(blush)_
a good sunny and relaxing Sunday,

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 2:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen



   
    thanks Debra, I would like to add that Jenny Holzer is the lead, way back about 15 years ago at the Biennale in Venice there was this dark room with words and letters running around the walls, outside letters etched in marble benches. Jukka-Pekka Kervinen has the merit of being creative, this time with words moving on the screen.

    Sorry to be contradictory yet again, but Jenny Holzer was not in the lead, or close to it.  Richard Kostelanetz and Ian Hamilton Finlay, for two, were doing her stuff much better than she ever did it at least ten years before the Venice thing, for which she got about as much money as all the good American visual poets of the time have ever gotten, combined, for their art.  Yes, sour grapes--but I thought her work crap before Venice.  She rose to fame through pedestrian leftist slogans printed on billboards. Kervinen, whom I've mentioned in my blog, is vastly superior as an artist in every possible way to her.

    --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb 27 17:32:02 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:32:02 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Who said chivalry has disappeared?
Message-ID: <008501c51d1c$29877480$50a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

maybe it gets through...

_______________________________________
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb 27 17:52:58 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:52:58 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Beckett & Piombino
Message-ID: <00bd01c51d1f$1525fd10$50a83252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Being more serious, there is an interesting interview of Tom Beckett with Nick Piombino on E-X-C-H-A-N-G-E-V-A-L-U-E-S
http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com/



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au  Sun Feb 27 22:14:11 2005
From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:14:11 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 8, Issue 39
In-Reply-To: <200502272230.j1RMUB0u009870@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20050228031411.54649.qmail@web51404.mail.yahoo.com>

malleable jangle www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com
 



Malleable Jangle Issue 4 is now online. The March 2005 issue features new poetry from:

Louis Armand, Iain Britton, Angela Costi, Christophe Cassamassima, JUS!in KATko, Donna Kuhn, Michael Leddy, Rupert M Loydell, Paul Mitchell, Sarah Pearlstein, Francis Raven, and John West

Articles and reviews by:

Richard Hillman, and Francis Raven
I would like to especially thank Richard and Francis for their contributions, as they were the first contributors who answered the call for articles and reviews.
The Australian bowls legend R.T. Harrison has some words of wisdom. I would also like to thank the Henselite company for their generous permission to reprint images from R.T. Harrison?s seminal work: How to Become a Champion at Bowls.

 

Issue 4 March

www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com

All the best, Robert Lane.

p.s.  Malleable Jangle is calling for submissions for Issue 5 April



Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com 
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings




---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
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From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Mon Feb 28 04:11:42 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:11:42 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <025001c51ba3$dfa419a0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net><KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net><6.0.3.0.2.20050221140704.032d3798@mail.ilstu.edu><014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1109256353.421de8a117032@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<025001c51ba3$dfa419a0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1109581902.4222e04e6df20@webmail.ukonline.net>


Yes, and I've shot my bolt, until the library kicks into action with some of 
these books I ought to read. 


Quoting Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>:

> I suspect you and I are the only ones left in this thread, Michael--unless 
> Kent's still there.  Oh, Robin will be, too, I'm sure.  Anyway, here's my 
> latest candidate for an American version of "ictus": "emphasyll."  Yeah, 
> sounds like a medicine.  But I think I use "syl" or syll" for some other 
> related word.  Can't remember what.
> 
> --Bob G. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




----------------------------------------------
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 28 06:40:19 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:40:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
References: <1108997780.4219f6949df7f@webmail.ukonline.net><KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net><6.0.3.0.2.20050221140704.032d3798@mail.ilstu.edu><014501c518e8$0c5e19a0$2bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1109256353.421de8a117032@webmail.ukonline.net><025001c51ba3$dfa419a0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1109581902.4222e04e6df20@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <005301c51d8a$4807cbd0$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>
> Yes, and I've shot my bolt, until the library kicks into action with some 
> of
> these books I ought to read.

I think the thread is over, but I'm still trying to find the perfect term 
for "ictus."  My latest is "foot-crest."

--Bob 




From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 28 07:02:27 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:02:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <005301c51d8a$4807cbd0$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


{    I think the thread is over, but I'm still trying to find the perfect term 
{    for "ictus."  My latest is "foot-crest."
{    
{    --Bob 

Hmmm, sounds like a toothpaste for pedal digits.

Hal



From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Feb 28 08:38:04 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:38:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9367678.1109597884479.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 08:25AM, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>{    I think the thread is over, but I'm still trying to find the perfect term 
>{    for "ictus."  My latest is "foot-crest."
>{    
>{    --Bob 
>
>Hmmm, sounds like a toothpaste for pedal digits.
>
>Hal
>

Isn't it a litle odd that those of us bothered by the borrowed terminology of English accentual-syllabic meters are largely a distinct group from those of us of us who write in those meters?

Mike S.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Mon Feb 28 09:30:22 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:30:22 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <9367678.1109597884479.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
	<9367678.1109597884479.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1109601022.42232afeb25d3@webmail.ukonline.net>

Quoting Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com>:

>  
> On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 08:25AM, Halvard Johnson
> <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >{    I think the thread is over, but I'm still trying to find the perfect
> term 
> >{    for "ictus."  My latest is "foot-crest."
> >{    
> >{    --Bob 
> >
> >Hmmm, sounds like a toothpaste for pedal digits.
> >
Not true in my case, Mike!

http://www.geocities.com/mpeverett/karinboye.htm

But it's no doubt true that terminology is often quite unnecessary in order to 
compose metrically - one drops into a lilt and can work almost by instinct. 
Homer I'm sure had no prosodic terms at all. 

It's when critically analysing what has been written in the past, or thinking 
about new ways of writing in the future, that terminology becomes an enabler 
if it's good and a disabler if it's bad. 










> >Hal
> >
> 
> Isn't it a litle odd that those of us bothered by the borrowed terminology of
> English accentual-syllabic meters are largely a distinct group from those of
> us of us who write in those meters?
> 
> Mike S.
> 
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




----------------------------------------------
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 28 09:38:44 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:38:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00c601c51da3$34adfe60$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>
> {    I think the thread is over, but I'm still trying to find the perfect 
> term
> {    for "ictus."  My latest is "foot-crest."
> {
> {    --Bob

> Hmmm, sounds like a toothpaste for pedal digits.
>
> Hal

Yeah, that's a problem with trying to improve terms--unfortunate 
connotations.  "Foot-Peak" would get away from "Crest," but sounds dumb to 
me.  "Foot-Head" or "head-foot" might work, though. . . .   I think I'll 
just buy up all the stock of the comapany that makes Crest, and change its 
name.  Hmmm, seriously: "stress-site."





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 28 09:50:01 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:50:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net><9367678.1109597884479.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1109601022.42232afeb25d3@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <00e201c51da4$c85a2480$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Quoting Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com>:
>
>>
>> On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 08:25AM, Halvard Johnson
>> <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >{    I think the thread is over, but I'm still trying to find the 
>> >perfect
>> term
>> >{    for "ictus."  My latest is "foot-crest."
>> >{
>> >{    --Bob
>> >
>> >Hmmm, sounds like a toothpaste for pedal digits.
>> >
> Not true in my case, Mike!
>
> http://www.geocities.com/mpeverett/karinboye.htm
>
> But it's no doubt true that terminology is often quite unnecessary in 
> order to
> compose metrically - one drops into a lilt and can work almost by 
> instinct.
> Homer I'm sure had no prosodic terms at all.
>
> It's when critically analysing what has been written in the past, or 
> thinking
> about new ways of writing in the future, that terminology becomes an 
> enabler
> if it's good and a disabler if it's bad.

Rational terminology is always good; only poets who misuse it by mistaking 
it for some kind of compulsory rule can be disabled by it.

--Bob 




From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Feb 28 10:24:15 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:24:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <1109601022.42232afeb25d3@webmail.ukonline.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
	<9367678.1109597884479.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1109601022.42232afeb25d3@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <14974319.1109604255802.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 09:31AM, <m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

>Quoting Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com>:
>
>>  
>> On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 08:25AM, Halvard Johnson
>> <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >{    I think the thread is over, but I'm still trying to find the perfect
>> term 
>> >{    for "ictus."  My latest is "foot-crest."
>> >{    
>> >{    --Bob 
>> >
>> >Hmmm, sounds like a toothpaste for pedal digits.
>> >
>Not true in my case, Mike!
>
>http://www.geocities.com/mpeverett/karinboye.htm
>
>But it's no doubt true that terminology is often quite unnecessary in order to 
>compose metrically - one drops into a lilt and can work almost by instinct. 
>Homer I'm sure had no prosodic terms at all. 
>
>It's when critically analysing what has been written in the past, or thinking 
>about new ways of writing in the future, that terminology becomes an enabler 
>if it's good and a disabler if it's bad. 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> >Hal
>> >
>> 
>> Isn't it a litle odd that those of us bothered by the borrowed terminology of
>> English accentual-syllabic meters are largely a distinct group from those of
>> us of us who write in those meters?
>> 
>> Mike S.
>> 
>> -----
>> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
>> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>
>
Michael, perhaps I'm mistaken -- the archives aren't easily searchable -- but aren't you the one who wrote here that those who want rhyme and meter can have country music? And that you find it odd that poets could chose to work in modes so distant from contemporary usage? -- not that I would agree that accentual-syllabic verse is distant from contemporary usage in any way that wasn't also true in, say, 1670.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Feb 28 10:29:00 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:29:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <00e201c51da4$c85a2480$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
	<9367678.1109597884479.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1109601022.42232afeb25d3@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<00e201c51da4$c85a2480$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <11622216.1109604540952.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 09:53AM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

>
>
>> Quoting Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com>:
>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 08:25AM, Halvard Johnson
>>> <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >{    I think the thread is over, but I'm still trying to find the 
>>> >perfect
>>> term
>>> >{    for "ictus."  My latest is "foot-crest."
>>> >{
>>> >{    --Bob
>>> >
>>> >Hmmm, sounds like a toothpaste for pedal digits.
>>> >
>> Not true in my case, Mike!
>>
>> http://www.geocities.com/mpeverett/karinboye.htm
>>
>> But it's no doubt true that terminology is often quite unnecessary in 
>> order to
>> compose metrically - one drops into a lilt and can work almost by 
>> instinct.
>> Homer I'm sure had no prosodic terms at all.
>>
>> It's when critically analysing what has been written in the past, or 
>> thinking
>> about new ways of writing in the future, that terminology becomes an 
>> enabler
>> if it's good and a disabler if it's bad.
>
>Rational terminology is always good; only poets who misuse it by mistaking 
>it for some kind of compulsory rule can be disabled by it.
>
>--Bob 
>
>


I agree with your second clause, Bob, but sometimes trying to indriduce a rational terminology only creates confusion. Sometines there is nothing rational to describe, and sometimes, even when there is, the disruption caused by attempting to discard an accepted lexicon is not worth the marginal benefits of the new.
 
-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Feb 28 11:19:27 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:19:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <14974319.1109604255802.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
	<9367678.1109597884479.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1109601022.42232afeb25d3@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<14974319.1109604255802.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <7419493.1109607567116.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 10:25AM, Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

-- not that I would agree that accentual-syllabic verse is distant from contemporary usage in any way that wasn't also true in, say, 1670.
>

That probably needs an explanation.

Any metrical organization is an artifice intended, among other things, to indicate that what's going on isn't ordinary language. The non-linguistc auditory rhythms we all experience have, at most, marginal effects on what particular metrical system(s) are used to mark off certain acts of speech as poetry, or else prosodies would be based on the technological levels of a culture and not on whether stress or duration or tone or combinations of these and other language features systematically vary in normal speech. English went from predominantly accentual to predominantly accentual-syllabic prosodies not because the rhythms of life were different with French technologies, but because the rhythms of speech changed. Windshield wipers and bass guitars no more ought to affect contemporary prosody than heartbeats or walking or the smithies affected the old -- that is, they are part of the world we must include in our poetry, but not part of what marks some particular speech as poet!
ry.


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Mon Feb 28 11:27:11 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:27:11 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <14974319.1109604255802.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
	<9367678.1109597884479.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1109601022.42232afeb25d3@webmail.ukonline.net>
	<14974319.1109604255802.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1109608031.4223465f23478@webmail.ukonline.net>

No, I can't take credit for the country music crack. It's true that the 
majority of present-day poets that I care for are working in non-metrical 
form. (Though I'd like to mention e.g. Florence Elon as an exception, a 
wonderful metrist - I see she has a new chapbook out at last.) But a large 
part of my own work is metrical or quasi-metrical. So it's not glibly or 
without a sense of personal loss that I surmised that meter probably isn't the 
right way for most modern poets to get to wherever they're capable of going. 

> >
> Michael, perhaps I'm mistaken -- the archives aren't easily searchable -- but
> aren't you the one who wrote here that those who want rhyme and meter can
> have country music? And that you find it odd that poets could chose to work
> in modes so distant from contemporary usage? -- not that I would agree that
> accentual-syllabic verse is distant from contemporary usage in any way that
> wasn't also true in, say, 1670.
> 
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Feb 28 12:39:45 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:39:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <1109608031.4223465f23478@webmail.ukonline.net>
References: <14974319.1109604255802.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <42231111.3865.F4CCFA@localhost>

On 28 Feb 2005 at 16:27, m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk wrote:
> No, I can't take credit for the country music crack. It's true that
> the majority of present-day poets that I care for are working in
> non-metrical form. (Though I'd like to mention e.g. Florence Elon as
> an exception, a wonderful metrist - I see she has a new chapbook out
> at last.) But a large part of my own work is metrical or
> quasi-metrical. So it's not glibly or without a sense of personal loss
> that I surmised that meter probably isn't the right way for most
> modern poets to get to wherever they're capable of going. 

So long as "poet" and "poetry" are terms-of-value, as it is entirely 
clear nearly everyone on this list uses those terms, so long as they 
are terms people want to call themselves and their work because those 
terms confer value, there will be a lot of confusion over this. Why 
call people who write non-metrical texts "poets" in the first place? 
Remove the term-of-value and the claims will go away -- they'll find 
something else to call themselves: diarists, journalists, columnists, 
flash fictionists, whatever. 

The dispute lies in the value-conferring status that so many people 
give to the terms "poetry" and "poem" and "poet". So long as it's 
possible simply to hijack the value in value-conferring terms by 
merely making a claim there will continue to be an enormous number of 
people willing to do make the claim.

Marcus




From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Feb 28 12:57:43 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:57:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D2@URANIUM.ripon.college>

> So long as "poet" and "poetry" are terms-of-value, as it is entirely 
> clear nearly everyone on this list uses those terms, so long as they 
> are terms people want to call themselves and their work because those 
> terms confer value, there will be a lot of confusion over this. Why 
> call people who write non-metrical texts "poets" in the first place? 
-------------------------------


I am. I am. I am a poet, I reaffirmed, ashamed.

                                William Carlos Williams, "The Desert Music."
============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Feb 28 13:25:32 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:25:32 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
Message-ID: <s2230dec.032@mail.highland.edu>

> So long as "poet" and "poetry" are terms-of-value, as it is entirely 
> clear nearly everyone on this list uses those terms, so long as they

> are terms people want to call themselves and their work because those

> terms confer value, there will be a lot of confusion over this. Why 
> call people who write non-metrical texts "poets" in the first place?

I have what I think is a good idea. Poets like Marcus get to call
themselves "Poets," and people who write in "non-metrical" forms get to
call themselves "poets." The big 'P' will denote those who write in the
hallowed meters and who thus deserve their cultural capital; the little
'p' will be used by those who don't and thus... don't. That way everyone
gets to use the moniker, and we all go home happy and ashamed.



From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Feb 28 13:33:48 2005
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:33:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <s2230dec.032@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42231DBC.32390.12647C9@localhost>

My idea is to remove the value-ladenness from the term "poet" by 
making it descriptive instead of a reward. Kent's proposal simply 
tries to carry on the value-ladenness of the terms. 
Marcus


On 28 Feb 2005 at 12:25, Kent Johnson wrote:

> > So long as "poet" and "poetry" are terms-of-value, as it is entirely
> > clear nearly everyone on this list uses those terms, so long as they
> 
> > are terms people want to call themselves and their work because
> > those
> 
> > terms confer value, there will be a lot of confusion over this. Why
> > call people who write non-metrical texts "poets" in the first place?
> 
> I have what I think is a good idea. Poets like Marcus get to call
> themselves "Poets," and people who write in "non-metrical" forms get
> to call themselves "poets." The big 'P' will denote those who write in
> the hallowed meters and who thus deserve their cultural capital; the
> little 'p' will be used by those who don't and thus... don't. That way
> everyone gets to use the moniker, and we all go home happy and
> ashamed.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb 28 17:32:57 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:32:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
References: <s2230dec.032@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <008901c51de5$743b3240$d3ae3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 7:25 PM


> > So long as "poet" and "poetry" are terms-of-value, as it is entirely
> > clear nearly everyone on this list uses those terms, so long as they
>
> > are terms people want to call themselves and their work because those
>
> > terms confer value, there will be a lot of confusion over this. Why
> > call people who write non-metrical texts "poets" in the first place?
>
> I have what I think is a good idea. Poets like Marcus get to call
> themselves "Poets," and people who write in "non-metrical" forms get to
> call themselves "poets." The big 'P' will denote those who write in the
> hallowed meters and who thus deserve their cultural capital; the little
> 'p' will be used by those who don't and thus... don't. That way everyone
> gets to use the moniker, and we all go home happy and ashamed.
>

If you say this Kent, it means that you mean that, following the thought of
W.C. Williams and what he meant, and adding what David Graham meant,
that by _being ashamed_
we (?) are all p/Poets.

Or do I mean something that you did not mean?
Meanfully/shamefully yours,

Anny




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb 28 17:43:05 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:43:05 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
References: <s2230dec.032@mail.highland.edu>
	<008901c51de5$743b3240$d3ae3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <00c501c51de6$de841990$d3ae3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>


> From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 7:25 PM
>
> > I have what I think is a good idea. Poets like Marcus get to call
> > themselves "Poets," and people who write in "non-metrical" forms get to
> > call themselves "poets." The big 'P' will denote those who write in the
> > hallowed meters and who thus deserve their cultural capital; the little
> > 'p' will be used by those who don't and thus... don't. That way everyone
> > gets to use the moniker, and we all go home happy and ashamed.
> >
>
> If you say this Kent, it means that you mean that, following the thought
of
> W.C. Williams and what he meant, and adding what David Graham meant,
> that by _being ashamed_
> we (?) are all p/Poets.
>
> Or do I mean something that you did not mean?
> Meanfully/shamefully yours,
>
> Anny


opps, maybe it is better if I write, meaningfully...
sigh!




From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Feb 28 17:46:32 2005
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:46:32 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D4@URANIUM.ripon.college>

If you say this Kent, it means that you mean that, following the thought of
W.C. Williams and what he meant, and adding what David Graham meant,
that by _being ashamed_
we (?) are all p/Poets.

Or do I mean something that you did not mean?
Meanfully/shamefully yours,

Anny
==================

None of it means anything, Anny:  it's just free verse!  For it to mean something, you have to write in meter.  I thought we had that settled.

The Williams passage has always been a painful one to read, however universal it is, parallel to similar moments in Whitman and, I suppose, going right back through the mists of time.  It's a poet's *job* to be nervous, if not outright ashamed of ourselves.  


It is not upon you alone the dark patches fall,
The dark threw patches down upon me also;
The best I had done seem'd to me blank and suspicious;
My great thoughts, as I supposed them, were they not in reality meagre? would not people laugh at me?

--fr. "Crossing Brooklyn Ferry"





============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 28 18:04:50 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:04:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENDKBAA.halvard@earthlink.net><9367678.1109597884479.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><1109601022.42232afeb25d3@webmail.ukonline.net><14974319.1109604255802.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1109608031.4223465f23478@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <015301c51de9$e877d4c0$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> No, I can't take credit for the country music crack. It's true that the
> majority of present-day poets that I care for are working in non-metrical
> form. (Though I'd like to mention e.g. Florence Elon as an exception, a
> wonderful metrist - I see she has a new chapbook out at last.) But a large
> part of my own work is metrical or quasi-metrical. So it's not glibly or
> without a sense of personal loss that I surmised that meter probably isn't 
> the
> right way for most modern poets to get to wherever they're capable of 
> going.
>
>> >
>> Michael, perhaps I'm mistaken -- the archives aren't easily searchable --  
>> but
>> aren't you the one who wrote here that those who want rhyme and meter can
>> have country music? And that you find it odd that poets could chose to 
>> work
>> in modes so distant from contemporary usage? -- not that I would agree 
>> that
>> accentual-syllabic verse is distant from contemporary usage in any way 
>> that
>> wasn't also true in, say, 1670.

The only verse I wrote before I turned thirty or so was metrical--except for 
visual poetry.  I've also writeen one or two full-length blank-verse plays, 
and several others with scenes in blank verse.  I still write blank verse 
one-acts every once in a while, but don't do poems in meter anymore.

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb 28 18:08:56 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 00:08:56 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AE9D4@URANIUM.ripon.college>
Message-ID: <010e01c51dea$7ac041a0$d3ae3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

IctusThank you David, you made my post today to my blog:

Lists and Graham 
Lists could be a sociologist's delight, the way they twist and turn and run. On the New Poetry List there has been a long discussion (since long) about meter or free verse, point is that this time it ended up under a thread titled _ictus_. with the newest additions bringing "shame" to it, and here are two of David Graham's posts in one quote worth mentioning:

***
I am. I am. I am a poet, I reaffirmed, ashamed. William Carlos Williams, "The Desert Music."

The Williams passage has always been a painful one to read, however universal it is, parallel to similar moments in Whitman and, I suppose, going right back through the mists of time. It's a poet's *job* to be nervous, if not outright ashamed of ourselves. 

It is not upon you alone the dark patches fall, The dark threw patches down upon me also; The best I had done seem'd to me blank and suspicious; My great thoughts, as I supposed them, were they not in reality meagre? would not people laugh at me?

--fr. "Crossing Brooklyn Ferry"
*** 

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Graham, David 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 11:46 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus


  If you say this Kent, it means that you mean that, following the thought of 
  W.C. Williams and what he meant, and adding what David Graham meant, 
  that by _being ashamed_ 
  we (?) are all p/Poets. 

  Or do I mean something that you did not mean? 
  Meanfully/shamefully yours, 

  Anny 
  ================== 

  None of it means anything, Anny:  it's just free verse!  For it to mean something, you have to write in meter.  I thought we had that settled.

  The Williams passage has always been a painful one to read, however universal it is, parallel to similar moments in Whitman and, I suppose, going right back through the mists of time.  It's a poet's *job* to be nervous, if not outright ashamed of ourselves.  



  It is not upon you alone the dark patches fall, 
  The dark threw patches down upon me also; 
  The best I had done seem'd to me blank and suspicious; 
  My great thoughts, as I supposed them, were they not in reality meagre? would not people laugh at me? 

  --fr. "Crossing Brooklyn Ferry" 






  ============================================ 
  David Graham 
  Department of English, Ripon College 
  grahamd at ripon.edu 
       Home Page:  
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html 
       My Poetry Library: 
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html 

  Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu 
  ============================================ 
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Feb 28 18:18:48 2005
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:18:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus and shame
Message-ID: <s2235284.089@mail.highland.edu>

Anny said:

>>If you say this Kent, it means that you mean that, following the
thought of W.C. Williams and what he meant, and adding what David Graham
meant, that by _being ashamed_ we (?) are all p/Poets. Or do I mean
something that you did not mean? Meanfully/shamefully yours,<<

You know, Anny, it's interesting, I hope it doesn't seem too
melodramatic to say: But lately I have been going through a... well, a
phase, I guess you could call it, a feeling of estrangement from myself,
a stage on life's way of profound dread and doubt, a recurring
visitation of fear and trembling. And I have found myself asking, around
one o' clock at Tony's Oyster Bar, sitting there with my friend Billy,
who works honorably at Wal-Mart in Customer Service, how it is possible
I could have so completely wasted my life in this thing called poetry,
what good have I done the world, what has been the point, you know... I
read about physicists doing all these things, astronomers discovering
black holes, technicians tracking super-volcano species-extinction
activity beneath Yellowstone, researchers researching the cure for AIDS,
engineers building towers in Singapore so tall they bend like bamboo,
statesmen and stateswomen working for peace treaties or for orphans in
Africa, doctors without borders, all these things, you know, giant
airplanes being designed, supercomputers, giant particle accelerators,
and all that, and I realize I don't even have the faintest idea how
these things work or come into being. And then on top of this, in the
midst of this feeling of suicidal angst and headlong urge to throw
myself into Chris Smart-like prayer through the ancient cobble-stoned
streets of my town, I read on this list that I haven't even been writing
Poetry at all, why no: I have only been writing PROSE and calling it
"Poetry" because I vainly desire the cultural prestige that goes with
the genre of Poetry without really having the stuff that entitles me to
the title, that I've essentially been lying in a hammock on some farm in
northern Illinois and watching my high school buddy, acid-head William
Duffy, flapping his Icarus wax wings in the yard and screaming he is
heading at great speed into the sun. And then I guzzle back my Pabst and
belch openly like a man, order another one, and I say to Billy, you
know, I think I am just going to kill myself, Billy. Oh, says Billy, by
what method? Because, I say (for our conversations don't necessarily
have any kind of syllogistic pattern to them by the time one AM rolls
around), all this time I have been thinking I was a poet or I have been
trying to be a poet and then this little smarty pants who writes in
meter tells me I have been trying to justify my empty life by calling
myself a poet when in fact I haven't even been writing poetry I've been
writing prose and you know what I suddenly realize he may have a point.
Well, says Billy, my cousin was a poet too he killed himself by drinking
Drano about two years ago and they didn't find his body until three
months later because he lived on a farm in Pearl City and by then his
body had filled with lots of gas and it just blew up so that the guts
were hanging from the light fixtures and the window blinds and he was a
poet just like you but I think all his poems rhymed and stuff but no one
liked them so I guess the moral of the story is shoot yourself somewhere
public to at least not suffer the shame of what happened to my cousin. 

And I guess that's what I wanted to say in response to your question.

Kent



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb 28 18:55:44 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 00:55:44 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus and shame
References: <s2235284.089@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <000f01c51df1$050e1520$76e83652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

:-)

this is a smile rolling into one o'clock of the following day, the day that
will see me at 8.15am in front of a bunch of students who are eager to see
in what shape I am just for the sake of it, they do not go to school to
learn anything, only to meet and see how the teachers are, this has been one
of my persistent thoughts lately.

and maybe we also teachers go to school for the walk preceding it, the light
we have to see in the streets, the new smells, the cold that has hit this
area lately.

I never liked arms. Or anything similar. But one never knows, as you well
know.

Were you down at that pub where you also met Jon Corelis some time ago?
That must be an interesting place, sooner or later I'll just pop in to say
hello to you all and maybe write a couple of proses, that is how they are
called lately, it seems, since you have taken all this precious time of
yours to explain me lengthily how I will have to define them since now.

Maybe Bob can make that proses a little more exotic, something like
processing Souses, wavingPoses_r_, rosesOn_pose, RareRoses, wandering
chosen, liquid

I must say _good night_

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 12:18 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus and shame


> Anny said:
>
> >>If you say this Kent, it means that you mean that, following the
> thought of W.C. Williams and what he meant, and adding what David Graham
> meant, that by _being ashamed_ we (?) are all p/Poets. Or do I mean
> something that you did not mean? Meanfully/shamefully yours,<<
>
> You know, Anny, it's interesting, I hope it doesn't seem too
> melodramatic to say: But lately I have been going through a... well, a
> phase, I guess you could call it, a feeling of estrangement from myself,
> a stage on life's way of profound dread and doubt, a recurring
> visitation of fear and trembling. And I have found myself asking, around
> one o' clock at Tony's Oyster Bar, sitting there with my friend Billy,
> who works honorably at Wal-Mart in Customer Service, how it is possible
> I could have so completely wasted my life in this thing called poetry,
> what good have I done the world, what has been the point, you know... I
> read about physicists doing all these things, astronomers discovering
> black holes, technicians tracking super-volcano species-extinction
> activity beneath Yellowstone, researchers researching the cure for AIDS,
> engineers building towers in Singapore so tall they bend like bamboo,
> statesmen and stateswomen working for peace treaties or for orphans in
> Africa, doctors without borders, all these things, you know, giant
> airplanes being designed, supercomputers, giant particle accelerators,
> and all that, and I realize I don't even have the faintest idea how
> these things work or come into being. And then on top of this, in the
> midst of this feeling of suicidal angst and headlong urge to throw
> myself into Chris Smart-like prayer through the ancient cobble-stoned
> streets of my town, I read on this list that I haven't even been writing
> Poetry at all, why no: I have only been writing PROSE and calling it
> "Poetry" because I vainly desire the cultural prestige that goes with
> the genre of Poetry without really having the stuff that entitles me to
> the title, that I've essentially been lying in a hammock on some farm in
> northern Illinois and watching my high school buddy, acid-head William
> Duffy, flapping his Icarus wax wings in the yard and screaming he is
> heading at great speed into the sun. And then I guzzle back my Pabst and
> belch openly like a man, order another one, and I say to Billy, you
> know, I think I am just going to kill myself, Billy. Oh, says Billy, by
> what method? Because, I say (for our conversations don't necessarily
> have any kind of syllogistic pattern to them by the time one AM rolls
> around), all this time I have been thinking I was a poet or I have been
> trying to be a poet and then this little smarty pants who writes in
> meter tells me I have been trying to justify my empty life by calling
> myself a poet when in fact I haven't even been writing poetry I've been
> writing prose and you know what I suddenly realize he may have a point.
> Well, says Billy, my cousin was a poet too he killed himself by drinking
> Drano about two years ago and they didn't find his body until three
> months later because he lived on a farm in Pearl City and by then his
> body had filled with lots of gas and it just blew up so that the guts
> were hanging from the light fixtures and the window blinds and he was a
> poet just like you but I think all his poems rhymed and stuff but no one
> liked them so I guess the moral of the story is shoot yourself somewhere
> public to at least not suffer the shame of what happened to my cousin.
>
> And I guess that's what I wanted to say in response to your question.
>
> Kent
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 28 20:04:36 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:04:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus and shame
References: <s2235284.089@mail.highland.edu>
	<000f01c51df1$050e1520$76e83652@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <01bd01c51dfa$a3e8ce20$34b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Prosearators?  proh  SEAR uh t'rs.  Writing Prosearature, the only 
worthwhile form of literature.

--Bob G. 




From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Feb 28 20:29:31 2005
From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:29:31 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
In-Reply-To: <s2230dec.032@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <ECOWS02MjfFXIxJUeRm00033aab@smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk>

So which is ee cummings? 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson
> Sent: 28 February 2005 18:26
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Ictus
> 
> > So long as "poet" and "poetry" are terms-of-value, as it is 
> entirely 
> > clear nearly everyone on this list uses those terms, so long as they
> 
> > are terms people want to call themselves and their work 
> because those
> 
> > terms confer value, there will be a lot of confusion over this. Why 
> > call people who write non-metrical texts "poets" in the first place?
> 
> I have what I think is a good idea. Poets like Marcus get to 
> call themselves "Poets," and people who write in 
> "non-metrical" forms get to call themselves "poets." The big 
> 'P' will denote those who write in the hallowed meters and 
> who thus deserve their cultural capital; the little 'p' will 
> be used by those who don't and thus... don't. That way 
> everyone gets to use the moniker, and we all go home happy 
> and ashamed.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>